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hist_text-digest          Monday, May 4 1998          Volume 01 : Number 061




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 22:06:58 -0400
From: darlene <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels

paul another really good place to buy gun parts or kits is VERNON C. DAVIS
& CO.  address is 6901 RUNNING DEER PLACE DUBLIN,OHIO 43017  phone # is
1-614-761-2568.they advertise in muzzleloader.they carry colerian barrels
in any confirgureation & cal or gauge.i have dealt with VERN on several
occasions & he has always been very helpful.i am finishing  a tulle style
for my 16 yr old son that he purchased from VERN at the eastern & i beleive
he has about 450 in parts.hope this helps you out

        your humble servant shootshimself At 08:15 AM 5/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
>    Over the past few months I have learnd a lot from this list and I send
out my thanks to all. But alass I have more questions.
>
>    I am trying to put together a smoothbore a 62cal/20 gage trade rifle in a
flint lock. Do any of you have any cataloge address' or other sources? I
have Dixie and a old mountain states cataloges but that is it.
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Humbly your servent
>Paul
>
>
>[e-mail]
>
>
>Get your FREE, private e-mail
>account at http://www.mailcity.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 22:28:52 EDT
From: Dejim55 <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas

I JUST WENT TO THE YARDAGE STORE AND BOUGHT MYSELF 8 YARDS OF CANVAS.  I PLAN
TO SEW THEM UP TO MAKE MYSELF A DIAMOND FLY FOR PRIMATIVE TRECKS.  WILL THIS
BE EXCEPTABLE?  AND HOW DO I WATER PROOF THEM?  APPRECIATE ANY HELP I CAN GET.
I'M DEEPLY INDEPTED FOR ANY HELP ANYONE CAN GIVE,   MANY HATS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 00:23:40 EDT
From: LODGEPOLE <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas

In a message dated 98-05-02 22:33:04 EDT, you write:

<< I JUST WENT TO THE YARDAGE STORE AND BOUGHT MYSELF 8 YARDS OF CANVAS.  I
PLAN
 TO SEW THEM UP TO MAKE MYSELF A DIAMOND FLY FOR PRIMATIVE TRECKS.  WILL THIS
 BE EXCEPTABLE?  AND HOW DO I WATER PROOF THEM?  APPRECIATE ANY HELP I CAN
GET.
 I'M DEEPLY INDEPTED FOR ANY HELP ANYONE CAN GIVE,   MANY HATS. >>

   This string comes up quite often.  There are many period correct methods of
waterproofing and without getting into a lot of detail, they consist of using
chemicals that leave you with a highly flamable piece of canvas.  I have the
recipe somewhere buried in my puter.......if you want them contact me off
list.  Since I have my boy sleeping in my diamond with me I opt for the not so
period correct but basically undetectable modern canvas waterproofing that you
can often find in your hardware store or army surplus or camping supply
company.  Just don't mess with spraying it on.  Put yer canvas in a bucket and
poor it in until covered and let it soak it up.  Then hang to drip dry with
something underneath to catch the drippings so you can reuse.
   One more thing.  Before you go carving and sewing on that canvas, if it can
be returned, compare the cost for what you bought against a canvas painters
tarp at your local paint supply store.  Maybe you can save a handfull of
greenbacks.

                                                    Longshot

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 00:27:59 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......

Leather, yes....beads...mostly pony beads (a specific size which is
big)...chokers not really like in the stores unless they lived with
American Indians year round I believe.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Ted

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 20:59:19 -0400
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......

Ted A Hart wrote:

> Leather, yes....beads...mostly pony beads (a specific size which is
> big)...chokers not really like in the stores unless they lived with
> American Indians year round I believe.

What do you mean by this statement??? If the choker is wrong..what would
living with them year round change.\???

Linda Holley

> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
> Ted
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:53:31 -0700
From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roasting coffee beans

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I Think you are right about the tea but coffee was costly like today and
was not much to be had.  I'll throw this out.  I  read something Mark Baker
wrote and he couldn't find any inventories that allowed him to carry brick
tea can any one tell me of any inventories that had Brick tea on them.  I
think the HBC had some at one time, at Fort Vancouver.  Angela help.
Later Jon T

- ----------
: From: Blue Rider <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roasting coffee beans
: Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 12:03 AM
:
:: >                                                      iron tounge
: It's my understanding that they mostly carried and drank black tea.
:
: Blue
:
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I Think you are right about the tea but =
coffee was costly like today and was not much to be had.  I'll =
throw this out.  I  read something Mark Baker wrote and he =
couldn't find any inventories that allowed him to carry brick tea can =
any one tell me of any inventories that had Brick tea on them.  I =
think the HBC had some at one time, at Fort Vancouver.  Angela =
help.     Later Jon T <br><br>----------<br>: From: =
Blue Rider <<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roasting coffee =
beans<br>: Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 12:03 AM<br>: <br>:: > =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;    iron tounge<br>: It's my understanding that =
they mostly carried and drank black tea.<br>: <br>: Blue<br>: </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:07:41 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......

On Sun, 03 May 1998 20:59:19 -0400 Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
writes:
>
>
>Ted A Hart wrote:
>
>> Leather, yes....beads...mostly pony beads (a specific size which is
>> big)...chokers not really like in the stores unless they lived with
>> American Indians year round I believe.
>
>What do you mean by this statement??? If the choker is wrong..what
>would
>living with them year round change.\???
>
>Linda Holley

You are right....sorry about that.  Ok what I think I was trying to
explain was that chokers were worn mostly by warriors for protection
against arrows and in some cases bullets (has it been documented?).
Women usually didn't wear those.  Nowdays chokers are made with plastics
and all.  If you look at pictures of old time warriors you'll see that
the chokers were made with hollowed out bones.  Of what kind of bones I
don't know but I made one when I was 12 with  fish rib bones and it
looked good till the string began to disgerate.  Mountain men didn't
usually wear them unless they lived with American Indians alot and I
don't even know if they did....does anyone know this?  Maybe I'm treading
in strange terriority right now :)  Every time  I go to the powwows
(Indian dancing) every one wears chokers.  I have one myself made of
plastic from Tandy :)  But I do know of some individuals selling handmade
chokers and they are expensive like hell and filled with some stuff you
would've not seen in the past like metals etc.

Ted

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:09:57 -0700
From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry

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:
: Comments :
:
: :
: As for materials it is hard for the common person to tell the difference
: between hemp, cotton, linen, or polyester.  I made a shirt a few years
: back and hand sewed it ( big deal) and I held up the material against the

: real stuff ( linen ) to polyester I couldn't tell the difference between
: the two.  The difference between the two was $15.00 a yd.  We have a man
: from the NW and he will look over your shirt real close.  Stand in front
: of you talking,  while he is looking you over you feel like your fly is
: open.  So I make my stitches far enough apart for people to see it is
hand
: stitched.  But what most of the nit pickers don't realize is that  a self

: respecting person back in the time frame wouldn't wear such poorly made
: shirts .   I don't think being so picky is important,  now some of my
: brother will come down on me for this but I can take it.  This man said
: how could I in good conscience stand in front of some school children and
talk
: to them with a machine sewn shirt.  My come back kids in school aren't
: that picky and wouldn't  know the difference.  That is how I do it but
when he
: sees me wearing a hand sewn shirt I make him happy but he don't know it
: all.  The point is, it don't make a lot of difference what shirts are
made
: of, modern tech does a good job of making fabric.

As for hemp rope I understand it is easy to weaken when wet.  It makes good
fire starting material.
I use it that is over 50 years old.  and the only thing any better is paper
wasp nest - the wasps.

Later Jon T.
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"><br><br>: <br>: Comments :<br>: <br>: : =
<br>: As for materials it is hard for the common person to tell the =
difference <br>: between hemp, cotton, linen, or polyester.  I made =
a shirt a few years <br>: back and hand sewed it ( big deal) and I held =
up the material against the <br>: real stuff ( linen ) to polyester I =
couldn't tell the difference between <br>: the two.  The difference =
between the two was $15.00 a yd.  We have a man <br>: from the NW =
and he will look over your shirt real close.  Stand in front <br>: =
of you talking,  while he is looking you over you feel like your =
fly is <br>: open.  So I make my stitches far enough apart for =
people to see it is hand <br>: stitched.  But what most of the nit =
pickers don't realize is that  a self <br>: respecting person back =
in the time frame wouldn't wear such poorly made <br>: shirts . =
  I don't think being so picky is important,  now some of =
my <br>: brother will come down on me for this but I can take it. =
 This man said <br>: how could I in good conscience stand in front =
of some school children and talk <br>: to them with a machine sewn =
shirt.  My come back kids in school aren't <br>: that picky and =
wouldn't  know the difference.  That is how I do it but when =
he <br>: sees me wearing a hand sewn shirt I make him happy but he don't =
know it <br>: all.  The point is, it don't make a lot of difference =
what shirts are made <br>: of, modern tech does a good job of making =
fabric.   <br><br>As for hemp rope I understand it is easy to =
weaken when wet.  It makes good fire starting material. <br>I use =
it that is over 50 years old.  and the only thing any better is =
paper wasp nest - the wasps.  <br><br>Later Jon T. </p>
</font></body></html>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:25:40 -0700
From: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: wrong cavas

the list
     made a wedge tent myself,but made the mistake of doing it myself
andmade the mistake of using a canvas that does not have a tight enough
of a weave.  is there any thing that can be done to water proof it??
 t. water seal doesnt help. guess there are things that should be left to
the professionals. (tent smiths)  :) frank   :( ;(

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 13:03:21 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels

Hello the List,

Just a couple questions...
Is the smoothbore the gun most often carried by the western fur trapper or eastern
woodsman and if so what time frames are we talking about?
What rifled barrel guns were carried by western mountain men?

Thanks, Medicine Bear

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:40:14 EDT
From: JFLEMYTH <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels

Dear Paul,

The trade gun stocked by Dixie is made by North Star West.  You can get their
pamphlet by sending them your address and three stamps.  They will use one
stamp to send it to you, and God only knows what they do with the other two!

Their address is:
North Star West
P.O. box 488
Glencoe, California  95232

They sell parts, kits, assembled in the white, or completed trade guns.  They
also make an 18" barrel 'canoe gun', a chief's grade, and several other
variations.

Your somewhat humble and obedient servant,
John Fleming

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 23:25:05 -0500
From: "Ken McWilliams" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry

Thank you Jon! I love to see a man who uses reason instead of historic
hysteria! I have a shirt that is probably very close to what you describe
and everyone thinks that it is linen. It is also machine sewn. And you are
right, kids want to see, to experience through you as a person. I doubt
that they would give two hoots if it is hand sewn! I have given lectures to
Boy Scouts about the mountain men and they wanted to see the flint and
steel and wanted to see if you really could make a fire with it. The fire
drill really impresses them too! When I would talk about the clothing and
such, that was OK. But most of the time they wanted to know about real
mountain men and how they lived and survived.
I keep hearing about period correct. You can not use your Whelen or Baker
canvas lean to, but a canvas tipi is fine? C'mon people, what happened to
learning the skills that kept them alive? Is everyone just in it to
re-inact the fur trade, or to LIVE it? Costumes are for parties and such.
If you have mountain man clothes to wear, why not call them clothes? If
someone is so nit-picky that they want to inspect your shirt to se if you
hand sewed it, he needs to get a life! Rendezvous is supposed to be fun
too! I have hand sewn shirts and I have machine sewn shirts, sinew sewn
skins and some sewn with that fake stuff. I have worn both and no one ever
inspected my clothing or complained about it. I am not saying that rubber
soled mocs are correct for an AMM rendezvous, no way, but this fanatic
approach is just as bad. Some one pointed out that we can not chop down
half the forest to do a rendezvous and that the canvas lean to was a good
substitute, and I agree with him. By the same token, we can't afford
buffalo hide tipi's either. Any one out there get the point?
Respectfully,
Your Obt. Servant,
Ken YellowFeather
- ----------
From: JON P TOWNS <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Fw: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 9:09 PM



:
: Comments :
:
: :
: As for materials it is hard for the common person to tell the difference
: between hemp, cotton, linen, or polyester.  I made a shirt a few years
: back and hand sewed it ( big deal) and I held up the material against the

: real stuff ( linen ) to polyester I couldn't tell the difference between
: the two.  The difference between the two was $15.00 a yd.  We have a man
: from the NW and he will look over your shirt real close.  Stand in front
: of you talking,  while he is looking you over you feel like your fly is
: open.  So I make my stitches far enough apart for people to see it is
hand
: stitched.  But what most of the nit pickers don't realize is that  a self

: respecting person back in the time frame wouldn't wear such poorly made
: shirts .   I don't think being so picky is important,  now some of my
: brother will come down on me for this but I can take it.  This man said
: how could I in good conscience stand in front of some school children and
talk
: to them with a machine sewn shirt.  My come back kids in school aren't
: that picky and wouldn't  know the difference.  That is how I do it but
when he
: sees me wearing a hand sewn shirt I make him happy but he don't know it
: all.  The point is, it don't make a lot of difference what shirts are
made
: of, modern tech does a good job of making fabric.

As for hemp rope I understand it is easy to weaken when wet.  It makes good
fire starting material.
I use it that is over 50 years old.  and the only thing any better is paper
wasp nest - the wasps.

Later Jon T.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:27:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nathan Offutt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas

Heres my .02 on canvas for trecking.  If you plan to
carry it on your back then weight becomes a serious
issue.  If you are traveling by canoe or horse then
weigt isn't such a big concern.  I prefer to go as
light as I possibly can even though I know that I may
not be as comfertable in camp.  The reduced weight on
the trail plus the challenge of using less make the
whole thing worthwile to me.  When the canvas is
waterproofed using lindseed oil then the weight seems
to at least double.  For my own personal use a piece
of canvas just big enough to  wrap completly around
my bedroll (including me) plus a few inches to tuck
under is plenty. This sort of decision depends on the
level of comfert you seek while in the woods.  As to
the issue of waterproofing, I use lindseed oil
painted on the canvas.  One coat is not enough to
waterproof it no matter how thoroughly the canvas is
saturated.  let it dry realy well before putting on a
second coat (it probably will take a few weeks).  The
second coat should dry to a sort of semigloss sheen.
Then it will be "waterproof".  This whole procces
takes a considerable amount of time so don't plan on
waterproofing one week and trecking the next.  You
dont need to hem the edges as the fibers will be
pretty well glued togather.  It is flammable so keep
it a reasonabl distance from the fire.  You don't
need to be parinoid, just use common sense.



===



Regards,

Nathan Offutt





- ---Dejim55  wrote:
>
> I JUST WENT TO THE YARDAGE STORE AND BOUGHT MYSELF
8 YARDS OF CANVAS.  I PLAN
> TO SEW THEM UP TO MAKE MYSELF A DIAMOND FLY FOR
PRIMATIVE TRECKS.  WILL THIS
> BE EXCEPTABLE?  AND HOW DO I WATER PROOF THEM?
APPRECIATE ANY HELP I CAN GET.
> I'M DEEPLY INDEPTED FOR ANY HELP ANYONE CAN GIVE,
MANY HATS.
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:53:53 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas

Been a couple of quiries on waterproofing canvas and such and I would offer
this.

I have had some luck using natural and perhaps period materials to
waterproof bedrolls and such and this is how I do it.

I use Linseed oil, but I make it more flexable with a large infusion of bees
wax and for color I include a good shot of Burnt Umber Oil Paint.
In a large coffee can, heat up (very carefully and outside) a quart or so
of linseed oil until it will melt a coffee cup size piece of bees wax and
sqeeze a 4oz tube of Burnt Umber Oil paint into the mix. Stur well and let
cool a bit. It will be thined with paint thinner or other thinning medium
off the heat just before it is applyed to your fabric.

Fold up your fabric to no more than 4 thicknesses and spread out on a piece
of that black stuff that is liquid proof and kills weeds if it covers them.
Use a piece of this black stuff big enough to make a good work area for your
fabric to rest on. Now thin the still warm oil/bees wax mix about 50/50 with
the thinner and pour some into a roller pan. With a long handled roller,
completely saturate the fabric, turning it over to get good saturation in
all layers. Hang it to drip and dry in a sunny location and it should be
close to usable in a week or so.

The more bees wax you use the more flexible it will be. I have a ground
cloth that wraps around me and is a bit bigger than a Whitney 4 Point that
has been on the ground 5 or 6 times a year for the last 5 years and is still
in one piece. It is made of 108" muslin and is probably too lite for a tarp
but would work if need be.

What ever you use, whether this method or T/Water seal, shrink the fabric
first and saturate it with the waterproofing liquid. T/Wproofing can be used
full strength and should be but linseed oil methods seem to need thinning so
as not to go on too heavy and turn out stiff and make the fabric too heavy
and fragile. I am still experimenting with the idea of using more flexible
oils than linseed but the above method does work.

Having spent 25 yrs. as a professional Fire Fighter I can assure you that
almost any thing you do to natural fabric will add to it's combustibility.
Wool is the exception as it is naturally fire resistant tho it will burn if
you insist in laying in the fire. The other fabrics will at the least
smolder until extinguished or vigerously burn if exposed to direct flame. So
be forwarned and take precautions as needed.


Hope this has been of help to you and good luck.

YMOS
"Capt." Lahti
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dejim55 <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, May 02, 1998 7:31 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas


>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:08:45 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry

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Further comments

Just wanted to weigh in with Jon and Yellow Feather on the subject of =
materials and authenticity. I got to agree with what they are saying. I =
too have been accosted at not so primitive du'ins in the NW by fellas =
inspecting my clothes to see if they were hand sewn as if that makes the =
difference between me being OK to talk to or not. I don't wear hand made =
cloths to impress or make me acceptable to the well washed elete'. I do =
what I do because I want to try and do it the way it was done back then. =
Sometimes I get it right and sometimes I don't. Fact is that fella =
couldn't have passed a close inspection himself.

 Like my friends Jon and Yellow Feather, Some of my clothes are of =
period materials and hand sewn with period threads and some aren't. I =
guess the main reason some are of all the right stuff is just to prove =
to myself that I can do it, cause I do beleive that if it's worth do'in, =
it's worth do'in right. Hopefully the first time. I encourage those I =
come in contact to do the same, for the same reasons. If they choose not =
to that is their business. I sure ain't gona go look'in at their =
stitch'en.=20

Enough on that for now.

YMOS
"Capt." Lahti

- -----Original Message-----
    From: JON P TOWNS <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 8:36 PM
    Subject: Fw: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry
   =20
   =20
   =20
    .=20
   =20

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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Further comments</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Just wanted to weigh in with Jon and Yellow Feather =
on the=20
subject of materials and authenticity. I got to agree with what they are =
saying.=20
I too have been accosted at not so primitive du'ins in the NW by fellas=20
inspecting my clothes to see if they were hand sewn as if that makes the =

difference between me being OK to talk to or not. I don't wear hand made =
cloths=20
to impress or make me acceptable to the well washed elete'. I do what I =
do=20
because I want to try and do it the way it was done back then. Sometimes =
I get=20
it right and sometimes I don't. Fact is that fella couldn't have passed =
a close=20
inspection himself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> Like my friends Jon and Yellow Feather, Some =
of my=20
clothes are of period materials and hand sewn with period threads and =
some=20
aren't. I guess the main reason some are of all the right stuff is just =
to prove=20
to myself that I can do it, cause I do beleive that if it's worth do'in, =
it's=20
worth do'in right. Hopefully the first time. I encourage those I come in =
contact=20
to do the same, for the same reasons. If they choose not to that is =
their=20
business. I sure ain't gona go look'in at their stitch'en. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Enough on that for now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Capt." Lahti</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>JON P TOWNS <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, May 03, 1998 8:36 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Fw: Fwd: =
MtMan-List: The=20
    sail mfg. industry<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>.=20
 </P></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BD7755.62FE4B40--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:42:26 EDT
From: Dejawog <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: thanx.....

In a message dated 5/4/98 10:42:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, you said.....
Thank you Jon! I love to see a man who uses reason instead of historic
hysteria!.......  we think rendezvous is supposed to be fun!!  we love all the
fancy (and not-so) clothing, and things to be *right*, but lighten up,
please...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:45:28 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smooth bore barrels

MEDICINE BEAR

the information that i am about to provide you with is my personal
opinion and what i have absorbed from over 35 years buckskinning and from
many fond friends past and present that are true buckskinners and people
that were born over a 100 years too late.  keep a open mind and accept
what you feel is correct to you.

The smooth bore rifle was only one option of the weapons carried by the
western fur trapper or trader.   use your common sense you will probably
agree with the next statement that i am about to make.

THE EARLY TRAPPERS AND MOUNTAIN MEN CARRIED  WEAPON THAT THEY WERE
COMFORTABLE WITH AND HAD THE ABILITY TO PURCHASE PRIOR TO LEAVING
CIVILIZATION.  THERE BASIC NEEDS DICTATED THE FIREARM THAT THEY FELT WAS
REQUIRED.  IT COULD HAVE BEEN A Smooth bore  RIFLE, A FUSIL, A FOWLER,  A
RIFLED GUN, A SINGLE OR DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN, EVEN A HANDGUN.  THE
WEAPON WAS USED FOR DEFENSE AND FOR THE PROCUREMENT OF MEAT TO SUPPORT
THEIR EXISTENCE AND FOR BASIC SELF PROTECTION.

each firearm has a special feature that they  could rightly justify or
that they felt met their requirements.  the neet part of a smooth bore is
that you didn't have to have lead to fire it. only powder FLINT OR CAP
and some type of wadding.  lead or shot was wonderful but they could load
them with rocks, a wooden bullet or anything else that would fit down the
barrel if they were to run out of shot or ball.    The northwest trade
gun was appropriate for period and many were altered by  shortening the
barrel and the stocks, kind of like our sawed off shotguns of today.
many were repaired with raw hide to hold the barrel in the channel and
you will see many examples of this in original guns.  the northwest gun
had a good lock that made good spark and caps were not required to fire
it, i have seen several of these that were converted to use musket caps
so what are we to say is period correct.  one can justify anything if he
thinks about it long enough.  the northwest guns or fowler were easy to
load and could be loaded on horseback by placing the balls in the cheek
of the mouth and with a big or burned out touch hole by simply closing
the frizzen pouring powder down the barrel and blowing a ball down the
barrel it would fill the flash pan and it  was ready to fire when rideing
at full gallop along a buffalo then quickly swinging the gun down and
firings before the bullet fell out .  this is the explanation i was once
given for having seen several smooth bores with bulges in the barrel---
yes it could have been caused by improper cleaning or a stuck bullet but
i like my story better.  PLEASE NOTE I AM NOT CONDONING THIS TYPE OF
SHOOTING OR EVEN RECOMMENDING IT. you will have to go back to the common
sense approach and,  logical, feasible, or  practical or could it even be
done then you make your own determination..

all mountain men dreamed of owning a good rifle but it would cost almost
a years wages in that time period for the best made.  yes there were
cheep rifles both in flint and in percussion.  most true buckskinners
will tell you that a flint rifle is the only one to have because "IF GOD
WANTED YOU TO HAVE A PERCUSSION GUN THEN HE WOULD HAVE PAVED THE CREEK
BANKS WITH PERCUSSION CAPS"    a bit radical but again i would say it is
the need and the ability to procure that dictated the firearm of choice
for the fur trapper and mountain man..

Most mountain men preferred larger caliber rifles and many were half
stock, but again it was personal preference.  look at the killing range
of a muzzle loader and you will see what i am trying to say.  Yes there
were several 40 caliber guns carried by the mountain men but they
probably had more than one rifle. and it took a larger caliber or heavier
bullet to kill at the extended distances required in the plains.  In the
eastern united states most game was killed at close range and were not
the size of a buffalo or a bull elk or a grizzly bear.  I have seen
several small black bears killed with a 40 caliber but most had heavy
barrels and took a heavy powder charge to get the killing energy needed.
I have a friend that killed a small black with his 40 cal kentucky loaded
with 90 gr of black.  he said he had to place the bullet good and he
still wondered if it was going to die lucky he was hunting out of a tree
stand and the bear ran over a hundred yards and then collapsed.  He said
if he ever did it again he would go for the large bore gun over 50 cal.

  If you look at the so called plains rifles you will see a big
commonality most were large bore and half stock with heavy barrels over
one inch in dia.  some were even  1 1/2 across the flats  and some were
tapered to  about 1 in at the muzzle.  since the rifle was carried on
horseback most of the time the weight of the rifle didn't make that much
difference.  If you have ever carried a 12 pound rifle in the woods to
hunt for several days it might change your mind, but their rifles were
carried primarily on horseback so what's the problem with another 4
pounds in a gun if it met your needs and requirements..

five things were important to the average mountain man or fur trapper and
kept close at hand.
1. a method to make fire.
2. a good knife
3. a good belt ax or tomahawk
4. some type of firearm to procure game
5. good common sense to utilize the above for survival in the wilderness.

some would say you need shelter added to the above but if the mountain
man or fur trapper had the above he could build his shelter, some would
say he needed a horse, then i would say god gave him two feet and two
hands he could survive. I have been a skinner for over 30 years and been
fortunate to have been around some of the finest men that i believe ever
lived.  each were teachers in some form or made a important point.
listen to those who know and use your god given common sense to disregard
those who haven't been there and done that.  Practical experience is one
hell of a teacher and it doesn't take long to sort out what is real or
plain old bull.

REMEMBER: WITH COMMON SENSE A GOOD KNOWLEDGE BASE AND TWO HANDS AND A
KNIFE A MOUNTAIN MAN CAN SURVIVE ANYWHERE.

Sorry for the length of this epistle but have just spent several hours of
my time reading over 40 msgs on how to roast a coffee bean and have come
to the conclusion that our reality or common sense has left us  IF YOU
ARE NEW TO BUCKSKINNING  then keep in the back of your mind  IF IT WERE
AVAILABLE AND THE MOUNTAIN MAN COULD HAVE USED IT HE WOULD HAVE,  HE
WASN'T STUPID, HE SURVIVED ON COMMON SENSE AND HIS EXPERIENCE.

LEARN AND TEACH OTHERS AND BUCKSKINNING WILL ADD ANOTHER DEMENTION AND
CREATE A WAY OF LIFE FOR YOU IN EVERYDAY LIVING..

If you get to here you will even see that i even said something about
smoothbore barrels  contact me offline for further discussion .  My
e-mail address is: [e-mail]
sorry for the emotional frustration  and verboseness of this epistle.

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Sat, 02 May 1998 13:03:21 -0700 Frank
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hello the List,
>
>Just a couple questions...
>Is the smoothbore the gun most often carried by the western fur
>trapper or eastern
>woodsman and if so what time frames are we talking about?
>What rifled barrel guns were carried by western mountain men?
>
>Thanks, Medicine Bear
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:15:01 -0700
From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......

Ted wrote:
Of what kind of bones I don't know

The bone pipes were trade items and we made back east in New England.
There was a very good article in the Fur Trade Quarterly and Dean had a
link to another on the web.  The early "bone pipes" were made from the
heavy lip portion of a sea shell (some kind of conch shell?).  Later
ones were actually made from the thick leg bones of cattle that were
split into small pieces and then turned.  Maybe someone can remember the
web article and pass that along.  It was a cottage business and the guy
who designed the machine to drill them kept it a secret for many years
as I recall.

                Dennis

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:28:12 EDT
From: LODGEPOLE <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wrong cavas

In a message dated 98-05-03 23:37:00 EDT, you write:

<< the list
      made a wedge tent myself,but made the mistake of doing it myself
 andmade the mistake of using a canvas that does not have a tight enough
 of a weave.  is there any thing that can be done to water proof it??
  t. water seal doesnt help. guess there are things that should be left to
 the professionals. (tent smiths)  :) frank   :( ;(  >>

   Try getting a drum or trash can just big enough to stuff the tent in and
then pour in on top of it enough water seal to cover it up.  Let it soak up
all the seal it can and then hang to drip dry.  (You can use the drum/can to
catch the drippings to reuse) It doesn't work to just spray it on as i
understand it.  My buddy went through this same deal a couple years ago and it
has help since.  I am about to give this same method a shot myself.

                                                Longshot

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:31:31 -0500
From: "Ken YellowFeather" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry

 Jon,
Great tip on the fire starting materials. Powdered cedar and cedar bark
from under cedar trees makes good fire starter too. The lower limbs that
are dead can be used as a base as well. Burns hot and fast.
YellowFeather

- ----------
From: JON P TOWNS <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Fw: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 9:09 PM



:
: Comments :
:
: :
: As for materials it is hard for the common person to tell the difference
: between hemp, cotton, linen, or polyester.  I made a shirt a few years
: back and hand sewed it ( big deal) and I held up the material against the

: real stuff ( linen ) to polyester I couldn't tell the difference between
: the two.  The difference between the two was $15.00 a yd.  We have a man
: from the NW and he will look over your shirt real close.  Stand in front
: of you talking,  while he is looking you over you feel like your fly is
: open.  So I make my stitches far enough apart for people to see it is
hand
: stitched.  But what most of the nit pickers don't realize is that  a self

: respecting person back in the time frame wouldn't wear such poorly made
: shirts .   I don't think being so picky is important,  now some of my
: brother will come down on me for this but I can take it.  This man said
: how could I in good conscience stand in front of some school children and
talk
: to them with a machine sewn shirt.  My come back kids in school aren't
: that picky and wouldn't  know the difference.  That is how I do it but
when he
: sees me wearing a hand sewn shirt I make him happy but he don't know it
: all.  The point is, it don't make a lot of difference what shirts are
made
: of, modern tech does a good job of making fabric.

As for hemp rope I understand it is easy to weaken when wet.  It makes good
fire starting material.
I use it that is over 50 years old.  and the only thing any better is paper
wasp nest - the wasps.

Later Jon T.

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #61
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