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hist_text-digest       Saturday, March 28 1998       Volume 01 : Number 044




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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:57:07 EST
From: ITWHEELER <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan

again another one of those million doller practicle solutions where do you get
all these  good ones thanks again.
                                                                         iron
tounge

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:19:25 EST
From: AWarn10378 <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: History reinactments

I am searching for dates of historical reinactments in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana
and Kentucky.  I am also searching for information about becoming a reinactor.
Hope you can help.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:13:58 -0700
From: Les Chaffin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark

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Greg,
Do you have an address for Deer Creek?

Les



greg cullins wrote:

>      Recently (January 1998), I purchased a Model 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle,
> 54 caliber for "$399.00" from Deer Creek Productions.
>
>      Except for a very small wood chip near the patch box, this EuroArms
> rifle is a very fine "short" rifle. The Rifle came mail order in a Stones
> Mountain box and wrapped tight.  Other companies prices range from $545.00
> to $799.00. I still feel my purchase was a steal.  The metal ramrod has a
> removable brass tip (cone) for the attachment of cleaning jags, etc.  I've
> only fired Patched Round Ball (.530dia) as there are "eight (8)" rifling in
> the bore. -  .54 caliber Minie or REAL bullet are too long and will add
> undo pressure and a tumbling effect to path of the projectile and, could
> slap the target sideways. Making you wonder "What Cause That?"  I have
> fired it a total of seven time - with a "10 Ring Bullseye" each time at 100
> yards.
>
> As for accouterments:
>
> Members wore various types of clothing.  Not all members were from the
> Military, therefore those Civilian Employees were not restricted in dress.
>
> Deer/Elk Buckskin were the norm.  Most of these jackets and pants were made
> either by members of the group or, by the MANDAN Indians of North Dakota.
>
> The Leather or Cloth (cotton/wool) Caped Frontier Flock (jacket) patterns
> can be found through Eagle View Patterns at Amazon Vinegar & Pickling Works
> Drygoods 2218 E. 11th Street Davenport, IA 52803-3760 - Phone:
> 1-800-798-7979 (they take Visa/Master Card over the phone). This
> information was provided by employees of Fort Vancouver, Vancouver,
> Washington USA.
>
> C and D Jarnagin Company, Corinth, Mississippi, provides an excellent
> catalog for the 1800 period clothing - phone [phone].
>
> Shirts were cotton or wool, if there worn at all (the caped leather flock
> is quite warm-when on the move).
>
> If you are doing a Military impression:  The military Tri-corner hats had a
> shorter brim then the civilian style.  Colors varied - black, brown or a
> tan/sand.  Others wore the Davy Crocket Style round raccoon tail cap
> (with/without the tail).
>
> Powder Horns had a One (1) inch leaf spring spout on the pouring end with
> the letters US carved on the side of the horn.  This type of leaf spring
> spout can be found in the currently produced small (3 1/2 " - .31 caliber)
> brass/copper eagle powder flask.
>
>
> If you have any questions, please contact me at
>
> Greg L. Cullins
> Post Office Box 20992
> Portland, Oregon
>                        97294
>          or
> [e-mail]
>
> Good Hunting/Good Luck
> On To the Pacific and Fort Clatsop



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:15:43 -0800
From: Dave Parks <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: 1803  Rifle

greg cullins wrote:
>
>      Recently (January 1998), I purchased a Model 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle,
> 54 caliber for "$399.00" from Deer Creek Productions.  I've
> only fired Patched Round Ball (.530dia) as there are "eight (8)" rifling in
> the bore. -  .54 caliber Minie or REAL bullet are too long and will add
> undo pressure and a tumbling effect to path of the projectile and, could
> slap the target sideways. Making you wonder "What Cause That?"  I have
> fired it a total of seven time - with a "10 Ring Bullseye" each time at

           Most likely, you have 1 in 48 rifling for round ball. You
need a faster twist for longer bullets. 1 in 66" will usually straighten
out your keyholers......."That's the Cause". She sure seem's to shoot
real good with the 530's, that you mentioned, sounds to me like a
"Keeper"!
Continued good luck with her Greg.

                            Regards,  _M_  Manywounds
                                       W
                                       W

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:11:17 -0700
From: Les Chaffin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: History reinactments

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There is a nice doin's over by Jackson, Ohio over the Memorial Weekend.  I think
they are still doing it it's been a few years since I was there.

Les



AWarn10378 wrote:

> I am searching for dates of historical reinactments in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana
> and Kentucky.  I am also searching for information about becoming a reinactor.
> Hope you can help.



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:33:29 -0800
From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls

Hi Steve,

SWcushing wrote:
>The question was raised......."did they have exploding cannon balls,
>or did they just shoot rocks and stuff?"

I am not an expert on artillary, but exploding cannon balls have been
around sense before the RevWar.

>and for that matter when and how did they make "exploding cannon balls?"

Exploding ordnance like cannonballs were cast hollow, then filled with
black powder and corked up with the fuse. To fire the projectile, you
load the ball with the fuse toward the breech. When the cannon is fired
the fuse is automaticlly lighted. The length of the fuse determins when
the ball will explode. During the RevWar opposing sides would try to put
out the fuse of a cannonball that landed in a fort and did not explode
due to too long a fuse. If the ball was of a size they could use, they
would re-fuse the ball and fire it back.

Best regards,

Terry Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:36:44 -0800
From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: History reinactments

AWarn10378 wrote:
>
    I am searching for dates of historical reinactments in Michigan, >Ohio,
Indiana and Kentucky. I am also searching for information about
>becoming a reinactor.Hope you can help.

Greetings,

    First off, whats your first name? Just exactlly what kind of info are
you looking for in regards to becoming a reenactor? Whats your time
period, location, vocation, age, gender, area of interest, ect.?

Best regards,

Terry Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:47:19 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware

>Hallo Again
>
>Most of ya'll will be happy to learn that I've just spent me childrens
>food money for the month on subscriptions to both the NW Brigade Club
>Quarterly, and the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly.  Also, I finally
>recieved my very own personal copy of Russell's "Firearms, Traps, &
>Tools of the MM" (the Univ of Idaho can now have theirs back<G>)
>
>Which means I'll spend more time reading, and less pestering my more
>knowledgeble cyberfriends.

No, actually, now you'll be informing us on what you've learned.  :-)

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
**********    LIVING HISTORY IS LIFE!    **********

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:49:18 PST
From: "J.F.Bailey" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: mountain man show

Mountain Man Show - March 28-April 4

North Fork Framing
 235 Johnson Orofino, Idaho

  FEATURING:

Muzzleloaders
Plunder
Bronze Sculpture
John Clymer Prints
Gold Panning demonstrations
Mountain Men in traditional costumes
Primitive Shelter display

Artist & Mountain Men Saturday March 28
   10:00 AM - 5:00 PM

Arts and Displays through April 4
  !0:00 AM - 5:30 PM

Closed Sunday & Monday

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:05:50 -0800
From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1803  Rifle

Dave Parks wrote:

>            Most likely, you have 1 in 48 rifling for round ball. You
> need a faster twist for longer bullets. 1 in 66" will usually straighten
> out your keyholers......."That's the Cause".

I think maybe you got that a little backwards or I'm reading it wrong.
1 in 66" for round balls and 1 in 48" for miniballs or elongated type
bullets.

                           Dennis

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:06:44 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man show

>Mountain Man Show - March 28-April 4
>
>North Fork Framing
> 235 Johnson Orofino, Idaho

What better place for it!  Right at the front door of the Selway.

WAUGH!!!

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
**********    LIVING HISTORY IS LIFE!    **********

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:10:25 -0800
From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls

The length of the fuse determins when the ball will explode. During the RevWar
opposing sides would try to put out the fuse of a cannonball that landed in a
fort and did not explode due to too long a fuse. If the ball was of a size
they could use, they would re-fuse the ball and fire it back.

- --- How would you like have that duty written into your job description?

                            Dennis

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:23:32 -0800
From: Dave Parks <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: 1803 Twist

Dennis, you are right...I had it right in my mind, then wrote it down
wrong......"That was the Cause"! One turn in a shorter length is always
faster.....but sometimes my mind runs at a slower twist.

                         Thanks,  _M_  Manywounds
                                   W

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:01:13 EST
From: JFLEMYTH <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Deer Creek address

I just bought a gun through Wilderness Rifle Works, (part of Deer Creek).  I
am impressed with it so far, but am still waiting on a chance to put it
through the paces.  I do know they have great customer service and unbeatable
prices.

Still, in all their catalogs, I haven't seen the Harper's Ferry.  If they are
still making it, please let me know!

Their address is:

Deer Creek
P.O. box 97
Waldron, Indiana  46182

[phone]  (Note: this is their new area code after changing from 317)

Hope this helps.

John Fleming

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:17:23 -0800
From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls

Dennis Fisher wrote:
>
> >The question was raised......."did they have exploding cannon balls,

yes they did, but I can't place where I read it.  Explosive cannon balls
were invented by a British army officer, a major I believe, Major
Schrapnel invented them.
They were first used in combat by the British Navy against the Russians
with great effect but I can't remember the date.  if anyone is really
interested I'll try to find it.
>
> I have read accounts of the army using high explosive rounds against

They were not high explosive, that had not been invented yet.  Not even
by the Civil War were explosive shells high explosive.  They were loaded
with black powder, and the shell -- hollow balls loaded with powder were
called shell, like in the "Charge of the Light Brigade", "Stormed at
with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well" --- was loaded with the
fuse pointing out the barrel.  Fire coming around the ball when the gun
was fired lit the fuse.  They burst into from two to several large
pieces, usually three or four pieces of schrapnel, named for the major.


> Indians.  There were a lot of different types of projectiles such a
> solid shot, cannister (grape shot), chain shot, bar shot, etc.

Shot is a solid iron ball.  A 12 pound cannon fired a 12 lb. solid iron
ball.  Cannister and grape are not the same.  Cannister is a can of lead
or iron balls fired to hit low in front of advancing troops, breaking
the can open and bouncing said balls through the ranks.  A stand of
grape is made up of larger iron balls that are stacked on a plate around
a bolt, and when the stack is finished another plate is placed on top
and a nut screws down and tightens the entire thing, holding them
together.  Cannister would be more like bird shot, grape like buck
shot.  And yes there was chain and bar shot, plus langridge which was
scrap iron.  The navy used these against the riggin' of the enemy ship.

> explosive rounds would not have been to effective against light cavalry

Why not, the Russians kicked the crap out of the Light Brigade at Bella
Clava -- if nothing else it would tend to stampede Indian horses not
accoustomed to shell fire.

> an inventory of equipment at Ft. Vancouver in the 1830's which included
> a case of hand grenades.

The Bonhomme Richard was sinking when a marine in the fighting tops on
board the Bonhomme Richard dropped a grenade into the hold of the
Serapis, setting off open powder on the gun deck, and causing the
British captian to strike his colors.  This of John Paul Jones "I have
not yet begun to fight" fame.  That happend on Sept 23, 1877 I think.
I know the first wheels across South Pass were a cannon with a fur
brigade, but I don't think it was common.  Also the boats on the
Missouri had swivel guns that could be considered cannon.  They shot
about a one inch ball.  Fremont in (again I think) 1846 fired one shot
from his 12 pounder to warn Indians who he thought were threatening.  He
fired and explosive round that burst out over the Klamath Marsh.  That's
the only cannon shot at Indians that I know about until the Indian wars
of the late 1800's.  I think there were more on the Santa Fe trail than
on the Upper Missouri trade, but I'm not well read on the Santa Fe
trade.            Dale Nelson    [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:31:26 -0500
From: Philip Alexander <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: 1803  Rifle

1 in 20" or 21" for a target rifle.

- -----Original Message-----
From:    Dennis Fisher [SMTP:[e-mail]]
Sent:    Thursday, March 26, 1998 7:06 PM
To:    [e-mail]
Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1803  Rifle

Dave Parks wrote:

>            Most likely, you have 1 in 48 rifling for round ball. You
> need a faster twist for longer bullets. 1 in 66" will usually straighten
> out your keyholers......."That's the Cause".

I think maybe you got that a little backwards or I'm reading it wrong.
1 in 66" for round balls and 1 in 48" for miniballs or elongated type
bullets.

                           Dennis

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:09:44 EST
From: CT OAKES <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: History reinactments

<< AWarn10378 wrote:
 >
     I am searching for dates of historical reinactments in Michigan, >Ohio,
 Indiana and Kentucky. I am also searching for information about
 >becoming a reinactor.Hope you can help.
  >>

The most complete listing is in:

Smoke & Fire News
PO Box 166
Grand Rapids, OH 43522
419-832-0303
Subscription is $18 per year and well worth it if you plan to spend a lot of
your time in any aspect of this hobby.  They cover all periods.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:18:56 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1803  Rifle

Right you are Dennis.  Good catch!
Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, March 26, 1998 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1803 Rifle


>Dave Parks wrote:
>
>>            Most likely, you have 1 in 48 rifling for round ball. You
>> need a faster twist for longer bullets. 1 in 66" will usually straighten
>> out your keyholers......."That's the Cause".
>
>I think maybe you got that a little backwards or I'm reading it wrong.
>1 in 66" for round balls and 1 in 48" for miniballs or elongated type
>bullets.
>
>                           Dennis
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:28:57 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls

>The length of the fuse determins when the ball will explode. During the RevWar
>opposing sides would try to put out the fuse of a cannonball that landed in a
>fort and did not explode due to too long a fuse. If the ball was of a size
>they could use, they would re-fuse the ball and fire it back.
>
>--- How would you like have that duty written into your job description?

Ordinance specialist??  It's been done.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
**********    LIVING HISTORY IS LIFE!    **********

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:38:32 +0000
From: Carpenter Family <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Green River knife

Dear friends,
I found a treasure, I think, I hope.  I found, in an antique shop,  what
I believe to be an original Russell, Green River knife.  It is stamped,
not etched(sp?), Russell Green River Works (and I just cut myself with
it, it is very sharp).  Russell is underlined from after the capital R
to the last L and Green River Works is underneath,  all in caps.  The
blade is 11 3/4" from the hilt to the tip and the handle is 5 7/16".
The handle is affixed with three brass cutler's rivets.  On the handle
is stamped "BINELL BROS", I think.  Part of it is worn.  I assume
"Binell Bros" is either the company that affixed the handle, or the
store that sold it, or both.  Anyone have any knowlwdge of this?  I am
bleeding all over the keys.  Off to make a sheath for it now.

Thanks,
Ken C (most call me Carp or Carpy unless they are mad at me)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:02:41 -0600
From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Green River Knife

Sounds like a good find, however....

All the originals that I have seen, granted not that many, and all in the
vaults of several museums have the handle attached with 5 small pins.
The 3 rivets seem to date the knife to a later time period.

I am sure it is still a good knife.

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #44
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