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hist_text-digest       Wednesday, March 25 1998       Volume 01 : Number 043




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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:46:47 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls

>Hello the list,
>
>In a recent discussion of the fur trade, I mentioned that it was not uncommon
>for a large supply caravan headed to the spring rondy, to bring with them a
>field piece, (cannon) for protection and to impress the hell out of the
>locals. The question was raised......."did they have exploding cannon balls,
>or did they just shoot rocks and stuff?" Ah.....I dunno,...... and for that
>matter when and how did they make "exploding cannon balls?"
>
>Steve


Well, we know they had exploding shells by the War of 1812.  The "...bombs
bursting in air..." that F. S. Key saw at Fort McHenry in 1814 were
exploding shells.  They would have had timing fuses also, as they did
during the Rev. War.  I think impact detenators came later.

If General Ashley brought a cannon to the Rondy, he might have also
transported supplies of shot.  Certainly he carried powder.

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
**********    Opening Day, March 31!!!    **********

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:26:24 -0800
From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls

>The question was raised......."did they have exploding cannon balls,
> or did they just shoot rocks and stuff?" Ah.....I dunno,...... and for that
> matter when and how did they make "exploding cannon balls?"

I have read accounts of the army using high explosive rounds against the
Indians.  There were a lot of different types of projectiles such a
solid shot, cannister (grape shot), chain shot, bar shot, etc. High
explosive rounds would not have been to effective against light cavalry
such as the Indians because to get the most out of it you had to
estimate the distance to the target and fuse the round for the proper
time of flight so that it would explode very close to the target. No
easy task for fast moving horsemen.  Another option is to fuze the
rounds for a known distance and wait for the enemy to come into range.
These kind of rounds worked much better against massed troops at known
distances.  I'm just speculating here but I would think that cannister
would be more effective.  What you have is basically a giant point and
shoot shotgun.  I will keep my eye open for any references.  I did read
an inventory of equipment at Ft. Vancouver in the 1830's which included
a case of hand grenades.  I believe it was in Alexander Ross's book.
Just what every mountain man should have in his possibles bag.

                      Dennis

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:52:59 -0700
From: "P.D. Amschler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous in California

Does any one have info on rendezvous in the central to northern California.



Get your FREE, private e-mail
account at http://www.mailcity.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:08:54 EST
From: [e-mail] (Richard D Heyen)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:"Black Iron Frying Pans"

If your talking about cast, pig iron, they would be appropriot. Also
wrought Iron would be semi approprion, though I can't imagine why anyone
would make wrought iron cook ware. Wrought iron is not as resistant to
heat as pig iron is. Pig iron is very suseptable to concussive forces,
otherwise it woul be much easier to make everything out of pig iron, and
blacksmiths would have vanished in the mid 1500's. I don't realy know
what you mean by heavy sheet metal, but everything I can think of that
would fit that discription would only go back to about the civil war.

Drew Heyen
[e-mail]

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:11:04 EST SWcushing <[e-mail]> writes:
>Henry,
>
>Spotted a couple nice "Black Iron" (heavy sheet metal?) frying pans in
>an
>antique store.....would these be acceptable for pre-1840? ..."Don't
>need no
>stinkin cast iron pans......."
>
>Steve
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 1998 10:21:46 -0700
From: "Pat Quilter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Cannon Balls

                      Re: Cannon Balls
I'm no expert on cannons, but I'm fairly certain that the small pieces brought
out by caravans or expeditions, shooting roughly golf-ball sized balls, used
solid shot (as did the large army and naval guns until about the Civil War).
Exploding shot (with fuse) was confined to mortars for a long time. I would
presume that for demonstrations, a suitable stump or other heavy target was
smashed by a solid ball, or they loaded it with grape shot (effectively, dozens
of rifle-sized balls) and mowed down something dramatic. Such fire would be
devastating to a massed charge. Since these guns take loads many, many times
larger than a rifle load, the general report, recoil, and cloud of smoke would
be impressive in itself. Maybe somebody who actually knows some of the facts
could come in with more details.
Pat Quilter

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:57:38 -0800
From: Dave Parks <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan

SWcushing wrote:
>
> Henry,
>
> Spotted a couple nice "Black Iron" (heavy sheet metal?) frying pans in an
> antique store.....would these be acceptable for pre-1840? ..."Don't need no
> stinkin cast iron pans......."
>
> Steve
>

      Steve, your right! Those cast iron cooking aids are fantastic to
cook with (love my old Dutch-Oven), but they are really heavy! They
ain't made fer trekin'. It is tough to find a useable period (light
weight) frying pan as they are collector items in most instances. There
are a couple of types of sheet iron frying pans that can be found in
second hand stores, etc. The most common is the light weight sheet steel
that is made on a press. They have the double handle that is hollow in
the middle, so you don't burn your hand (as easily) as the older models
that
had the straight solid handle. Then there are the harder to find models
that are pressed using the old heavy sheet steel. After years of looking
I ran into two of them...a 10 inch and an 8". They were together in a
junk shop in Grants Pass, OR. I paid $4.00 for the pair! They were made
of the heavier sheet steel and were in like new condition, except for
the patina due to age. The difference to look for...is that the older
ones going back to the "Period" were pressed or shaped by a blacksmith
from a round piece of metal and the handle was attached with
rivets....usually three. The later models were pressed with the handle
being part of the cut out design, before pressing. Thirty years ago, I
picked up a heavy weight sheet steel frying pan, but it had the later
style pressed handle. I cut the handle off flush with the edge of the
pan and installed a period style long straight handle from an old rusty
piece of 1/8th inch flat iron about 1 inch wide and ten inches long. I
flattened and widened one end on the forge, drilled three holes in it
and the frying pan. I then used three copper rivets to attach the
handle. For treking I think I would attach the handle with old period
style soft iron (square) nuts & bolts, it would make packing it easier,
just don't lose the nuts & bolts! I have made an original looking Comal
this way also. It's very easy to do and works great on the fire. Trivits
are nice, but I don't think anyone used them in the mountains. I think a
Mountain Man's trivit was called a rock, hi, hi.
      Hope this helps you and gives you an idea of how to get something
more period out of the newer made frying pans.

                            Regards,  _M_  Manywounds
                                       W

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:19:32 -0800
From: Frank Stewart <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous in California

Yup!

Feather River Buckskinners Annual Rendezvous
June 12, 13 & 14 1998
Bushway: 3 Legs  530-256-3941

Louderback's Black Powder Club 20th Anniversary Rendezvous
April 10, 11 & 12 1998
Contact Terry:  530-275-6666
               John:   530-223-3459

Those folks can tell you about their voo's and maybe others.

Medicine Bear

P.D. Amschler wrote:

> Does any one have info on rendezvous in the central to northern California.
>
> Get your FREE, private e-mail
> account at http://www.mailcity.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:27:55 -0500
From: George and Donna Youngblood <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware

Lee Newbill wrote:
>
> On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Mtnman1449 wrote:
> > Two things happen then:  first, you get smarter and have
> > and begin to build an impressive library becoming incredibly smart like
> > Tippets, and second, without food to eat, you kid become less of an expense
> > and will hopefully learn to live off the land.  Pat Surrena #1449
>
> Pat
>
> A good idea on checking the back issues, Dean has a listing of the
> Quarterly at: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/mftq.html
> (it's printing out now... a leetle tiny for me old eyes though!)
>
> Getting smarter.... nah.... me lovely bride sez that's not the direction I
> generally move in :)
>
> As to the kids food money, if'n I could just get 'em to water the garden,
> feed the pigs and check the chickens on a somewhat consistent basis,
> instead of running a petting zoo, I could probably cut back on store
> bought food completey (except fer stuff that I caint grow on the side of
> an Idaho cliff), then I could afford some really important stuff like some
> new riding stock, or maybe even a new pair of spectacles <G>
>
> Appreciate the info!
>
> Regards
>
> Lee Newbill
> Viola, Idaho
> email at [e-mail]
> Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage
> http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html
Dear Mountain Men,

I regret to inform you that my husband is no longer with me.  He died of
cancer in September of 1997.

I have enjoyed reading and learning from the "Mountain Man" list,
however, if you would be so kind as to take my husbands name off of your
list, I would appreciate it.  To date, I don't know how to do this on my
own and if anyone out there knows how to delete the "Mountain Man" list,
please let me known.

Weeping Heart,
Donna

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:37:52 -0800
From: "The Windhams" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous in California

Ahoy! Amschler ,
There are a couple of places to try for Cal. Rondi's, both have list for up
and down the state. They are : 1)
http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html
                         2)http://www.netport.com/jharvill/
good luck and if'n ya hear of others b't let'n us know

Rick

- ----------
> From: P.D. Amschler <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous in California
> Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 6:52 AM
>
> Does any one have info on rendezvous in the central to northern
California.
>
>
>
> Get your FREE, private e-mail
> account at http://www.mailcity.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:01:01 EST
From: SWcushing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan

In a message dated 3/23/98 6:33:08 PM, you wrote:

<<The most common is the light weight sheet steel
that is made on a press. They have the double handle that is hollow in
the middle, so you don't burn your hand (as easily) as the older models
that>>

Thanks boys......  The pans I found in Redmond, OR are of the newer type but
will dig around more for the older models....all kinds of good stuff in them
antique stores! Great idea about redoing the handles, and for about $5 bucks a
piece, I'll do it.....

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:51:41 -0500
From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan

Steve,

I took one of the hollow handled frying pans of 6" diam and cut off
the handle about an inch from the edge of the pan. Then I had a
handle made from a piece of  scrap steel shaped with a squared hole
in the one end and I attached the other end to the pan with a small
brass hinge and brass pins. The reason for the squared hole is that
it won't spin on the green stick when you have weight in the pan.
This is a big consideration when your on short rations and don't know
where your next meal might come from! Just cut the stick with a
squared end and fit into the handle. Your supper won't end up in the
fire or the dirt! With the $2 price of the pan and about a dollar for
the hinge, I think I did pretty well.


Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick
Fairplay, MD
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:28:42 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan

>Then there are the harder to find models
>that are pressed using the old heavy sheet steel. After years of looking
>I ran into two of them...a 10 inch and an 8".  They were made
>of the heavier sheet steel and were in like new condition, except for
>the patina due to age. The difference to look for...is that the older
>ones going back to the "Period" were pressed or shaped by a blacksmith
>from a round piece of metal and the handle was attached with
>rivets....usually three.

This is the type I have.  Mine is about 6 or 8".   It's my personal period
trekking/modern backpacking pan, and it weighs very little and fits in my
haversack.  They even have the patina from use.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
**********    Opening Day, March 31!!!    **********

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:51:41 -0500
From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan

Steve,

I took one of the hollow handled frying pans of 6" diam and cut off
the handle about an inch from the edge of the pan. Then I had a
handle made from a piece of  scrap steel shaped with a squared hole
in the one end and I attached the other end to the pan with a small
brass hinge and brass pins. The reason for the squared hole is that
it won't spin on the green stick when you have weight in the pan.
This is a big consideration when your on short rations and don't know
where your next meal might come from! Just cut the stick with a
squared end and fit into the handle. Your supper won't end up in the
fire or the dirt! With the $2 price of the pan and about a dollar for
the hinge, I think I did pretty well.


Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick
Fairplay, MD
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:08:57 -0800
From: "greg cullins" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark

     Recently (January 1998), I purchased a Model 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle,
54 caliber for "$399.00" from Deer Creek Productions.

     Except for a very small wood chip near the patch box, this EuroArms
rifle is a very fine "short" rifle. The Rifle came mail order in a Stones
Mountain box and wrapped tight.  Other companies prices range from $545.00
to $799.00. I still feel my purchase was a steal.  The metal ramrod has a
removable brass tip (cone) for the attachment of cleaning jags, etc.  I've
only fired Patched Round Ball (.530dia) as there are "eight (8)" rifling in
the bore. -  .54 caliber Minie or REAL bullet are too long and will add
undo pressure and a tumbling effect to path of the projectile and, could
slap the target sideways. Making you wonder "What Cause That?"  I have
fired it a total of seven time - with a "10 Ring Bullseye" each time at 100
yards.

As for accouterments:

Members wore various types of clothing.  Not all members were from the
Military, therefore those Civilian Employees were not restricted in dress.

Deer/Elk Buckskin were the norm.  Most of these jackets and pants were made
either by members of the group or, by the MANDAN Indians of North Dakota.

The Leather or Cloth (cotton/wool) Caped Frontier Flock (jacket) patterns
can be found through Eagle View Patterns at Amazon Vinegar & Pickling Works
Drygoods 2218 E. 11th Street Davenport, IA 52803-3760 - Phone:
1-800-798-7979 (they take Visa/Master Card over the phone). This
information was provided by employees of Fort Vancouver, Vancouver,
Washington USA.

C and D Jarnagin Company, Corinth, Mississippi, provides an excellent
catalog for the 1800 period clothing - phone [phone].

Shirts were cotton or wool, if there worn at all (the caped leather flock
is quite warm-when on the move).

If you are doing a Military impression:  The military Tri-corner hats had a
shorter brim then the civilian style.  Colors varied - black, brown or a
tan/sand.  Others wore the Davy Crocket Style round raccoon tail cap
(with/without the tail).

Powder Horns had a One (1) inch leaf spring spout on the pouring end with
the letters US carved on the side of the horn.  This type of leaf spring
spout can be found in the currently produced small (3 1/2 " - .31 caliber)
brass/copper eagle powder flask.


If you have any questions, please contact me at

Greg L. Cullins
Post Office Box 20992
Portland, Oregon
                       97294
         or
[e-mail]

Good Hunting/Good Luck
On To the Pacific and Fort Clatsop

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #43
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