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hist_text-digest        Tuesday, March 3 1998        Volume 01 : Number 032




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:06:29 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel

John,

As per yer closing comment -- where do you find horses wearing mocassins and
why shouldn't said horses be kicked in the ass?  I never met a horse, or a
person, that didn't occasionally need to be kicked in the ass.  Quote must
have come from lover of Indian ponies -- maybe predessors to the PETA
people.

Dave


- -----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel


>There is no question one horse travel teaches you to trim down your gear.
>An essential lesson of survival.  Wandering on foot teaches much the same.
>
>To fully understand the compleat experience Two Squaws is right, you need
>to do a few hundred carefree miles with a couple of pack animals.
>
>It will be surprising what you learn.  I invented a couple of dozen new
>swear words over a 13 hand appaloosa aptly named Lil' Devil.  He inspired
>the sig file at the bottom.
>
>Both ways teach, the long trail with a pack string will certainly teach the
>most.   A spare animal is handy on the long trail.
>
>Part of the time I was out I rode with Pawnee and The Walrus, between us we
>had 9 animals.  Cuts a pretty wide swath in the modern world, sometimes
>poor bull for the stock.  Duties were interchangeable among the animals but
>we each basically had a rider, a packer and a spare on the string.
>
>Fewer animals can easier find sufficient graze on an extended basis.
>Doesn't leave such a broad and easy trail for hostiles to track.
>
>John...
>
>"Never kick a horse in the ass with mocassins on." copyright 1980
>
>john <[e-mail]>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:52:23 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning

John,

Thanks, now I've just to find an asphalt claim to jump.

Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning


>At 12:23 AM 2/26/98 , David Tippets wrote:
>>John,
>>
>>Thanks for all the information.  I'm still in the dark about asphaltum.
>>When I drove to Grand Junction last month, I stopped at a historical
marker
>>between Price and Green River.  To my surprise the marker noted the
>>importance of asphalt mined in the area.
>>
>>I don't want to push my luck and expect too much from your information
>>stores, but is naturally occuring asphalt ore something that Indians,
>>mountain men, or pioneers made use of without needing fancy refining
>>facilities?
>>
>
>The short answer is, YEP!  They had some methods of basic refinement.
>Asphalt has been used for a long time, just not for driveways back then.
>They also used it without the cheap starchy rock filler we usually see.
>
>If you are deadly serious about trying some old ways, first acquire the
>necessary materials, I'll find time to dig out the recipes and processes.
>
>While checking out some other things this afternoon I found in MacKenzie
>the following:
>
>TO MAKE BLACK JAPAN
>Take of boiled oil 1 gallon, umber 8 oz., asphaltum 3 oz., oil of
>turpentine as much as will reduce it to the thinness required.
>
>end quote ...
>
>This should at least give you a starting point for quantities and
>relationships.
>
>John...
>
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>John Kramer
>[e-mail]
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 15:47:47 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel

At 12:06 AM 3/1/98 , David Tippets wrote:
>John,
>
>As per yer closing comment -- where do you find horses wearing mocassins and
>why shouldn't said horses be kicked in the ass?  I never met a horse, or a
>person, that didn't occasionally need to be kicked in the ass.  Quote must
>have come from lover of Indian ponies -- maybe predessors to the PETA
>people.
>
>Dave
>
>
Never claimed to be Strunk or White.  He deserved a ball in the brain and a
session on a jerky rack.  Would have made a dandy vest.  Finally convinced
him who was boss & eventually turned out to be a pretty good horse.

Now you be careful, I am a totally in favor of PETA,  People for the Eating
of Tasty Animals.  A fine upstanding organization with noble goals and
aspirations; if there ever was one.

John...

"Never kick a horse in the ass with mocassins on." copyright 1980

john <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:49:25 -0800
From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4518.D8ABA0A0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

GOOD idea you can get it from Jas. Townsend and son.  Jon T

- ----------
: From: TetonTod <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens)
: Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 6:47 PM
:
: Tim,
:
: I lined mine with pine pitch a friend gathered from some ponderosa pines.
You
: also might try Bewers pitch.
:
: Todd Glover
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">GOOD idea you can get it from Jas. =
Townsend and son.  Jon T<br><br>----------<br>: From: TetonTod =
<<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd =
Canteens)<br>: Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 6:47 PM<br>: <br>: Tim, =
<br>: <br>: I lined mine with pine pitch a friend gathered from some =
ponderosa pines. You<br>: also might try Bewers pitch.<br>: <br>: Todd =
Glover</p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4518.D8ABA0A0--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Mar 98 16:57:18 PST
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel

Don't knock us members of PETA----you know, People who Eat Tasty Animals.
Been one for decades.
Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]

- ----------
>
> John,
>
> As per yer closing comment -- where do you find horses wearing mocassins
and
> why shouldn't said horses be kicked in the ass?  I never met a horse, or a
> person, that didn't occasionally need to be kicked in the ass.  Quote must
> have come from lover of Indian ponies -- maybe predessors to the PETA
> people.
>
> Dave
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 8:27 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel
>
>
> >There is no question one horse travel teaches you to trim down your gear.
> >An essential lesson of survival.  Wandering on foot teaches much the
same.
> >
> >To fully understand the compleat experience Two Squaws is right, you need
> >to do a few hundred carefree miles with a couple of pack animals.
> >
> >It will be surprising what you learn.  I invented a couple of dozen new
> >swear words over a 13 hand appaloosa aptly named Lil' Devil.  He inspired
> >the sig file at the bottom.
> >
> >Both ways teach, the long trail with a pack string will certainly teach
the
> >most.   A spare animal is handy on the long trail.
> >
> >Part of the time I was out I rode with Pawnee and The Walrus, between us
we
> >had 9 animals.  Cuts a pretty wide swath in the modern world, sometimes
> >poor bull for the stock.  Duties were interchangeable among the animals
but
> >we each basically had a rider, a packer and a spare on the string.
> >
> >Fewer animals can easier find sufficient graze on an extended basis.
> >Doesn't leave such a broad and easy trail for hostiles to track.
> >
> >John...
> >
> >"Never kick a horse in the ass with mocassins on." copyright 1980
> >
> >john <[e-mail]>
> >
> >
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:47:33 EST
From: LODGEPOLE <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo.

In a message dated 98-02-27 00:24:57 EST, you write:

<< does anyone know anything about the a new keelboat being build in st.
charles
 after the other one was burnedup in a fire last year. five of us took a ride
 up the missouri river last year. >>

   They have finished one of the Pirogues and are working currently on the
second.  The whole thing is sorta turniong out to be a big Clusterf___.  The
city of St. Charles is in on the rebuild and looking into how to make as much
money off the deal as possible.  I'm hearing that the Illinois Territorial
Rangewrs are in on it and now they figure everyone who is involved should be a
Ranger, and when it sails again it should only be Rangewrs that go.   I hear a
lot but cannot substanciate most.  A couple of my friends went up the river on
the last one as well, do you know Mike Perry or mike Chambers from the trip?

                                             Longshot

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:35:30 -0800
From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tent wanted

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I am looking for a wall tent to buy.  I also have a bell backed wedge tent
in excellent condition Made of marine canvas no mildew,  In a bag, no
grommets has loops and ties.  I have guns and stuff for trade or money what
ever anyone want to do.  Later Jon Towns
[e-mail] or 360-876-1319 after 5 PM week days PST anytime
weekend.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4506.2360AAE0
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I am looking for a wall tent to buy. =
 I also have a bell backed wedge tent in excellent condition Made =
of marine canvas no mildew,  In a bag, no grommets has loops and =
ties.  I have guns and stuff for trade or money what ever anyone =
want to do.  Later Jon Towns<br>[e-mail] or 360-876-1319 =
after 5 PM week days PST anytime weekend.    </p>
</font></body></html>
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4506.2360AAE0--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 16:17:23 -0800
From: Frank Stewart <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Capotes again.

Hello the camp,

I've read all the archive on "capotes" and "blankets" and am unable to
find the definitive answer to what the period correct colors are for a
capote or blanket.
One problem is of course, what's available!
I'm finding predominantly, scarlet, emerald, royal blue and white
multi-stripe.  I know the multi-stripe is out.
As always, your help is appreciated!

MB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:24:38 EST
From: ITWHEELER <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel

reminds me of the time one reeeeeal windy while riding my horse we were
heading into to the wind for quite awhile when we turned around my horse
lifted its tail               the wind bluew the bit right  out of my horses
mouth it was abig reck from there to camp. no searesly i new of amule my
[favorite] that could kick your foot could get it back downto stand on.





iron tounge

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:18:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Philip Huvler <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sawing off a CVA barrel

At 08:41 PM 2/26/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello gunmakers everywhere,
>
>  A friend of mine has a CVA Kentucky rifle he built from a kit. The
>caliber is .45 and the barrel length is 32". He wants to convert it to
>.32 caliber by replacing the barrel. The problem is most barrels are to
>long. What is the proper technique---saw off the muzzle end or the
>breech end? How much can be safely sawn off before accuracy is
>sacrificed?
>  Next question. I have a CVA Mountain rifle. It is percussion and I
>want to convert to flintlock. Do I simply remove the drum and replace it
>with a touch-hole liner and add a flintlock or is it more complicated
>than that?
>  Would someone please help us flatlanders with these questions.
>
>Thanks a lot folks,
>Monty Bradley
>
>hi did a CVA Kentucky conversion I sawed off the drum drilled and tapped it
for a liner. also I peened the remaining part of drum into the barrel for
added safety. the flintlock for the style gun fit perfect
>                                                good luck Philip Huvler

------------------------------

Date: 01 Mar 98 20:22:00 +0000
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning..

Nope.  But, I'm wondering...they still use stuff like that with horses so
I'm wondering if a vet or horse product supply house might have
something?

David Tippets wrote:
>Don,
>
>I've heard that it was a baked on finish.  Baking isn't a problem, once
>you've found some asphaltum varnish.  Somebody is making those jappaned
pots
>for Fort Union -- got any clues where the asphaltum varnish is coming
from?
>
>Dave
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
>To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 10:40 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning.
>
>
>>Japaning wasn't just painting.  They put on the asphalt/varnish and
then
>>baked it on at 350 degrees.  Don Keas
>>
>>
>>David Tippets wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks for the insight on Jappaning -- how's about some more?
>>>
>>>A couple of years ago I discovered that the Fort Union Interpretive
>>>Association has documented and is now offering for sale a small
>>>personal-size cooking pot that is Jappaned tin.  More recently, I 've
>>>discovered documentation of Jappaned tin eyeglass cases.
>>>
>>>The Fort Union reproduction pot was priced at $80.00, last that I
>>checked.
>>>
>>>According to your understanding of Jappaning:
>>>
>>> Could anyone today buy the appropriate shellac and paint it on tin to
>>>achieve results equal to the Jappaned tin containers?
>>>
>>>Is protecting from rust the mail reason people used to Jappan tin?
>>>
>>>Is the Jappaned tin food safe if Jappaned on the inside of the
>>container?
>>>
>>>Thanks for any additional information you have about Jappaning!
>>>
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>>Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 11:41 PM
>>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>. . .   Japaning, in this country, was most commonly done
>>>>with asphaltum varnish.
>>>>
>>>>Tole work on tin was sometimes done with milk paint, more often with
>>>>enamel, and some call this japaning.  What was called japaning in the
>>>>1200's referenced work done in Japan.  A lacquering technique never
>>widely
>>>>used in this country.  Black pigmented true lacquer from the rhus
>>>>venicifera; was the first japaning.
>>>>
>>>>Terminology has been loosely applied in this country and old names
>>>>appropriated for "new and improved" materials.  During the early
>>nineteenth
>>>>century the terms shellac, lacquer, varnish, were interchangeable and
>>could
>>>>refer to any of several classes of materials.  It depended on what
was
>>the
>>>>local usage.  Lacquer is now a modified nitro-cellulose based
product,
>>>>rapidly being replaced with new wonder water formulae; all called
>>lacquer.
>>>>
>>>>Japaning can be generally thought of as a blackening of the surface.
>>Some
>>>>techniques of woodwork may call ebonizing - japaning.  If painted
with
>>any
>>>>black surface material it could be called japaning.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
>>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning
>>>Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:36:41 -0700
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:52:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Local, State cooperation and Reenactments

On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, LODGEPOLE wrote:
<snip> The whole thing is sorta turniong out to be a big Clusterf___.  The
> city of St. Charles is in on the rebuild and looking into how to make as much
> money off the deal as possible.<snip>

I'm curious, are there any postive results when a political entity and a
BP club get together to do something?

One of the clubs I belong to is looking hard at doing something very
similiar in relations to the Lewis and Clark expedition through Idaho,
and, quite frankly, I'm hoping to hear some positive comments.

Any clubs ever get financially shipwrecked because of one of these
partnerships?

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage
http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:55:20 -0700
From: "Lee Cardon"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soapmaking

I have ties, but I only wear them on Sunday...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:31:35 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning.

John,

Thanks -- as far as I'm concerned, the bottom has just fallen out of the
market for Fort Union's little Jappaned cooking pot.  Where'd you lean all
this stuff?

Dave


- -----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, March 01, 1998 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning.


>At 02:25 AM 2/28/98 , David Tippets wrote:
>>Don,
>>
>>I've heard that it was a baked on finish.  Baking isn't a problem, once
>>you've found some asphaltum varnish.  Somebody is making those jappaned
pots
>>for Fort Union -- got any clues where the asphaltum varnish is coming
from?
>>
>
>Most of the early recipes I've seen only call for applying the asphaltum
>varnish with a brush.  Baked finishes are more common post-industrial
>revolution, not entirely unknown well before, in particular regarding fired
>enameling.  Sun baking was common.  Baking speeds curing of the finish,
>less time for dust to spoil, tempers the finish.  Temperatures should not
>generally exceed 250 to 350 degrees f., for most applications.  Some things
>work best in the 100+ range.  A very few to 500 and more.  All kinds of
>nasty things happen when something gets a little too hot -- or not hot
enough.
>
>Another receipt...
>"Brunswick Black Varnish
>Melt 4 lbs of common asphalt, and add 2 pts. of boiled linseed-oil, and 1
>gall. of oil of turpentine."
>
>Has anybody called up the local asphalt plant to see if you can get any
>pure product?  In small batches.  Commercial boiled linseed oil should
>probably work well enough in this application and turpentine is still
>available.
>
>It might be that you can go get a 5 gallon bucket of paving asphalt melt it
>down to remove impurities, and end up with usable stuff.  5 gallons may be
>so insignificant they won't even charge for it.
>
>Make tiny quantities and test before making a big batch.  I find an old
>ladle over a Bunsen burner handy for batch testing.  Work outdoors unless
>you have high volume air exchange and tolerant companions.
>
>Warning: ask a lot of the right questions.  I am aware there is a petroleum
>derivative also called asphalt and that may be all that is commonly
>available.  The first few dozen people you ask probably won't have a clue
>what you are talking about.  Persist.  With most old ways, original
>materials make a huge difference in finished results.  Usually for the
>better.  Not having the real lead (litharge) in the linseed may be enough
>of a handicap.  The real thing is available somewhere.  Sometimes it's
>right under our nose.
>
>I'm not familiar with the melting point of asphalt, it may be higher than
>is possible with a double boiler.  If so it will require a heavy wall pot.
>Ideally a double wall copper boiler.  I'd really hate to see fine old iron
>pots fouled with burnt in asphalt and think this is one area where
>ecological practice should perhaps take precedent.  Recycle old heavy
>aluminum cookware, since it is now suspect re: Alzheimer's, it seems a good
>way to extend the utility of manufactured goods before being sent to the
>smelter.  This is going to stink a lot.
>
>Experimentation to get everything just right might take a little while.
>
>Are we sure the finish applied on the Fort Union pots is asphalt based?  Or
>a convenient modern substitute?  I haven't been able to find any in a real
>long time; but then, I haven't been looking real hard.  Maybe I'll do a
>little more checking around.
>
>Remember varnish factories burned down with great regularity for a very
>good reason.
>
>As much as is possible I like seeing us shy away from modern expedients and
>products of petroleum technology, like paraffin.  We learn more.
>
>If somebody went to the trouble I'd want to trade for some.  One or two
>others might.
>
>John...
>
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>John Kramer
>[e-mail]
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:40:40 EST
From: Mtnman1449 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Kit Carson

I would place a phone call directly to Skip Miller, director of theKit Carson
Museum in Taos, NM. If anyone knows about Kit, it's Skip Miller.  the number
is 505-758-0505.  He'll big a big help to you.  Pat Surrena #1449

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:49:58 EST
From: JFLEMYTH <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens)

I have an article I pulled off the net on making a gourd canteen.  (I just
noticed that it has "J2HEARTS" name on it!)  It is a well done article, but I
havn't seen any gourds I liked enough to try it yet.  He reccommends using
bees wax and parafin melted together with several coats applied.  It may be
worth trying.

Also, How well have you cleaned the interior?  Could you be getting some
floatsom in your drink?

Let me know if you want, and I'll try to get the web site for this article
again.

John Fleming.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:18:36 -0600
From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens)

JFLEMYTH wrote:
>
> I have an article I pulled off the net on making a gourd canteen.
>
> Also, How well have you cleaned the interior?  Could you be getting some
> floatsom in your drink?

>From personal experience, the problem with uncoated gourd canteens is
much more than flotsam.   In the one I made, after extensive scraping, I
filled it with water overnight.  The next morning the water was
undrinkable.  I think it must be the tannin, which produced a pucker
that made it hard to even spit out the water!
I have read a first hand period account (Noah Smithwick in early Texas)
about gourd canteens, but he didn't say anything about coating them.  By
the way, his book "Early Times in Texas" is available for downloading
on-line.  It is a good, sometimes humerous read.

Iron Burner

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #32
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