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hist_text-digest      Tuesday, February 24 1998      Volume 01 : Number 027




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:29:42 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe

In a message dated 98-02-21 18:37:56 EST, you write:

<< Contact the Old Town Canoe Co. in Old Town, Maine. They carry all
 supplies to rework old canvas canoes including copper nails and some
 great literature.  >>

They also build canoes -- some realy fine ones from what I understand.  Not
sure if they'll do bark, but they do do the old style canvas canoes.
NM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:14:12 EST
From: [e-mail] (Richard D Heyen)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe

I would think originaly some variety of pine tar would have been used. Of
course the early mountain men didn't have to pack there canoes into or on
yop of their suburbans, etc. Pine tar would be some what messy. I would
recomend looking into some of the historical milk paints if you can find
them. I don't know haw they react to water once dry but I believe that
they would seal up canvas very well. I have been told this is called
japaning. Milk paints date back to 1700's and earlier so they should fit
any period your doing and I believe japaning goes back to the 1200's.

Drew Heyen
[e-mail]

On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:27:04 -0700 William Metcalfe
<[e-mail]> writes:
>What waterproof treatment would be recommended by the list for a
>canvas
>covered wood canoe or kayak?
>
>--
>William Metcalfe
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 06:54:27 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Horses & Tipis

When I mentioned cutting up hide tipis into usable pieces, I wasn't
referring to using the old leather for tents, but rather for clothing and
equipment.  Most specifically, the best moccasins were made from the heavily
smoked brain-tanned leather around the smokehole.  The smoke and it's
natural tars permeated the pores of the hides in the crown of the tipi and
made it what was probably the most water repellent leather of that period.

But also consider all the the leather gear that needed to be made and
maintained by trappers and Indians living and working with horses on a daily
bases.  They needed bridles, pack saddles, hobbles, saddle bags, reins, trap
sacks, knife sheaths, etc..  It's doubtful that much good dressed leather
ever went to waste.

Someone else can better address when canvas is first documented for a
covering of the Plain's Indian style tipi.  I have chased that one yet.

Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: Sickler, Louis L <[e-mail]>
To: 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, February 18, 1998 1:13 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Dead Horses & Tipis


>Ho the List !!
>
>Someone mentioned cutting up leather tipis into smaller pieces for
>summer shelters. This begs the question : What time period would be
>appropriate for CANVAS tipis ?? Seems to me that in the early 1800's,
>tipis would have been made of leather. Could be that canvas tipis are as
>late in the rendezvous period as a pyramid.
>
>Just a thought.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:14:41 -0500
From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe

I've found references to latex paint back to 1741. Find one in a
colonial color and you should be fine.


Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick
Fairplay, MD
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:03:38 -0500
From: Linda Holley <"[e-mail]"@Jacksonville.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Burnt tipis

It is very possible to burn down a tipi whether is made of canvas or
buffalo hide.  There is so much residue from smoky fires and the drying
out of the leather that you can burn it down.   Ask a brain tanner how
may hides they have burned up just trying to put a nice smoke on
leather.  I have seen many go up in flames.

Linda Holley
PS>>>and I burned my own 12' lodge down to the ground by stupidity.
Luckily I have 5 more to take its' place.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:04:52 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe

In a message dated 98-02-23 15:56:40 EST, you write:

<< I've found references to latex paint back to 1741. Find one in a
 colonial color and you should be fine. >>

could you tell what resource you got your information from?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:57:22 -0800
From: James Harvey <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cow Horn

Hello out there!

    Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns that would be
of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn?


        Thankyou,
            James Harvey

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:27:17 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe

At 07:14 AM 2/23/98 , Scott Allen wrote:
>I've found references to latex paint back to 1741.

WHERE??

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:  Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<  -  >>>As good as old!<<<
http://www.kramerize.com/
mail to: john<[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:58:42 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe

At 02:29 PM 2/22/98 , [e-mail] wrote:
>In a message dated 98-02-21 18:37:56 EST, you write:
>
><< Contact the Old Town Canoe Co. in Old Town, Maine. They carry all
> supplies to rework old canvas canoes including copper nails and some
> great literature.  >>
>
>They also build canoes -- some realy fine ones from what I understand.  Not
>sure if they'll do bark, but they do do the old style canvas canoes.
>NM
>

Don't think Old Town ever built a birch bark canoe.  They have built some
fine boats including a beautiful 12' cedar strip boat many years ago.

I do know where there is a nice 15' birchbark ready for the water -- if
anybody wants one.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:54:40 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe

At 02:14 PM 2/22/98 , Richard D Heyen wrote:
>I would think originaly some variety of pine tar would have been used.

Pine Tar was used for sealing birchbark canoe seams and for streamside
repairs on canvas.  You can buy a can from a horse veterinarian, farm
co-op, or cross country ski shop.

 I would
>recomend looking into some of the historical milk paints if you can find
>them. I don't know haw they react to water once dry but I believe that
>they would seal up canvas very well. I have been told this is called
>japaning. Milk paints date back to 1700's and earlier so they should fit
>any period your doing and I believe japaning goes back to the 1200's.

Milk paint is tenacious on wood but, the casein base won't long resist
saturation with water.  Japaning, in this country, was most commonly done
with asphaltum varnish.

Tole work on tin was sometimes done with milk paint, more often with
enamel, and some call this japaning.  What was called japaning in the
1200's referenced work done in Japan.  A lacquering technique never widely
used in this country.  Black pigmented true lacquer from the rhus
venicifera; was the first japaning.

Terminology has been loosely applied in this country and old names
appropriated for "new and improved" materials.  During the early nineteenth
century the terms shellac, lacquer, varnish, were interchangeable and could
refer to any of several classes of materials.  It depended on what was the
local usage.  Lacquer is now a modified nitro-cellulose based product,
rapidly being replaced with new wonder water formulae; all called lacquer.

Japaning can be generally thought of as a blackening of the surface.  Some
techniques of woodwork may call ebonizing - japaning.  If painted with any
black surface material it could be called japaning.

>
>On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:27:04 -0700 William Metcalfe wrote;

>>What waterproof treatment would be recommended by the list for a
>>canvas
>>covered wood canoe or kayak?
>>
>>--
>>William Metcalfe
>>

An upholsterers or cobblers plier will help in stretching the canvas over
the frame.

An old way to finish a canvas canoe, from the early 1900's, I've not found
a period reference.

A thin hot hide glue size (prepared in a double boiler) is applied to
shrink and seal the canvas.  When perfectly dry apply two coats of the best
lead and boiled linseed oil paint, colour to fancy.  The inside of the
canoe is sealed with two coats of spar varnish.  Real versions of most of
these things are not generally available because lead is toxic.  Hide glue
is still available.

Modern alternatives would include airplane fabric dope (toxic to apply)
along with the commercial sources (most likely also toxic) others have
mentioned.

In any case sizing the fabric with hot hide glue would be a good idea.

I have seen reference to using shellac to repair tears, streamside.  It is
fast drying.  Shellac is still available.

In a bark or fabric canoe a repair kit should be standard equipment on all
excursions.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:  Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<  -  >>>As good as old!<<<
http://www.kramerize.com/
mail to: john<[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:54:40 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe

At 02:14 PM 2/22/98 , Richard D Heyen wrote:
>I would think originaly some variety of pine tar would have been used.

Pine Tar was used for sealing birchbark canoe seams and for streamside
repairs on canvas.  You can buy a can from a horse veterinarian, farm
co-op, or cross country ski shop.

 I would
>recomend looking into some of the historical milk paints if you can find
>them. I don't know haw they react to water once dry but I believe that
>they would seal up canvas very well. I have been told this is called
>japaning. Milk paints date back to 1700's and earlier so they should fit
>any period your doing and I believe japaning goes back to the 1200's.

Milk paint is tenacious on wood but, the casein base won't long resist
saturation with water.  Japaning, in this country, was most commonly done
with asphaltum varnish.

Tole work on tin was sometimes done with milk paint, more often with
enamel, and some call this japaning.  What was called japaning in the
1200's referenced work done in Japan.  A lacquering technique never widely
used in this country.  Black pigmented true lacquer from the rhus
venicifera; was the first japaning.

Terminology has been loosely applied in this country and old names
appropriated for "new and improved" materials.  During the early nineteenth
century the terms shellac, lacquer, varnish, were interchangeable and could
refer to any of several classes of materials.  It depended on what was the
local usage.  Lacquer is now a modified nitro-cellulose based product,
rapidly being replaced with new wonder water formulae; all called lacquer.

Japaning can be generally thought of as a blackening of the surface.  Some
techniques of woodwork may call ebonizing - japaning.  If painted with any
black surface material it could be called japaning.

>
>On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:27:04 -0700 William Metcalfe wrote;

>>What waterproof treatment would be recommended by the list for a
>>canvas
>>covered wood canoe or kayak?
>>
>>--
>>William Metcalfe
>>

An upholsterers or cobblers plier will help in stretching the canvas over
the frame.

An old way to finish a canvas canoe, from the early 1900's, I've not found
a period reference.

A thin hot hide glue size (prepared in a double boiler) is applied to
shrink and seal the canvas.  When perfectly dry apply two coats of the best
lead and boiled linseed oil paint, colour to fancy.  The inside of the
canoe is sealed with two coats of spar varnish.  Real versions of most of
these things are not generally available because lead is toxic.  Hide glue
is still available.

Modern alternatives would include airplane fabric dope (toxic to apply)
along with the commercial sources (most likely also toxic) others have
mentioned.

In any case sizing the fabric with hot hide glue would be a good idea.

I have seen reference to using shellac to repair tears, streamside.  It is
fast drying.  Shellac is still available.

In a bark or fabric canoe a repair kit should be standard equipment on all
excursions.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:  Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<  -  >>>As good as old!<<<
http://www.kramerize.com/
mail to: john<[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:19:42 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn

BEST QUALITY HORNS AVAILABLE:
in my time have found that
 kark wilbern
5073 townsley rd
cederville ohio 45314
1(513)766- 5415

has been the best supplier of horns to me and kits that are of quality to
be scrimshaw on or to carve give him a call and i am sure he can help you
out in your horn needs.  he also makes flat horns for those of you that
might want them.  he furnishes plugs with his horns.  only minor work is
required to get ready for scrimshaw.  tell him what you want and he will
do his best to furnish it.

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:57:22 -0800 James Harvey
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hello out there!
>
>    Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow
>horns that would be
>of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn?
>
>
>        Thankyou,
>            James Harvey
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:10:57 -0800
From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD409F.88F24B40
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

DIXIE GUN WORKS

- ----------
: From: James Harvey <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: MtMan-List: Cow Horn
: Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 8:57 PM
:
: Hello out there!
:
:     Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns that
would be
: of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn?
:
:
:         Thankyou,
:             James Harvey
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD409F.88F24B40
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">DIXIE GUN WORKS<br><br>----------<br>: =
From: James Harvey <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: MtMan-List: Cow Horn<br>: Date: Monday, =
February 23, 1998 8:57 PM<br>: <br>: Hello out there!<br>: <br>: =
	Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns =
that would be <br>: of engravable quality and large enough to use as a =
powder horn?<br>: <br>: <br>: 		Thankyou,<br>: =
			James Harvey</p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD409F.88F24B40--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:08:56 -0800
From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn

James Harvey wrote:
>
> Hello out there!
>
>         Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns that would be of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn?
>
>Thankyou,
>James Harvey

Greetings James,

Raw cow horn can be had from most any slaughter house, but you don't
want to go that route, trust me. I suggest you cruse the dealers tables
at the next couple rendezvous instead. Your family, friends and
neighbors will thank you for it.

Best regards,

Terry Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 06:54:27 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Horses & Tipis

When I mentioned cutting up hide tipis into usable pieces, I wasn't
referring to using the old leather for tents, but rather for clothing and
equipment.  Most specifically, the best moccasins were made from the heavily
smoked brain-tanned leather around the smokehole.  The smoke and it's
natural tars permeated the pores of the hides in the crown of the tipi and
made it what was probably the most water repellent leather of that period.

But also consider all the the leather gear that needed to be made and
maintained by trappers and Indians living and working with horses on a daily
bases.  They needed bridles, pack saddles, hobbles, saddle bags, reins, trap
sacks, knife sheaths, etc..  It's doubtful that much good dressed leather
ever went to waste.

Someone else can better address when canvas is first documented for a
covering of the Plain's Indian style tipi.  I have chased that one yet.

Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: Sickler, Louis L <[e-mail]>
To: 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, February 18, 1998 1:13 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Dead Horses & Tipis


>Ho the List !!
>
>Someone mentioned cutting up leather tipis into smaller pieces for
>summer shelters. This begs the question : What time period would be
>appropriate for CANVAS tipis ?? Seems to me that in the early 1800's,
>tipis would have been made of leather. Could be that canvas tipis are as
>late in the rendezvous period as a pyramid.
>
>Just a thought.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:37:00 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe

Scott, et al

What a surprise that latex paint was used that long ago.  I've been trying
ot learn more about the old-fashioned milk paint that was commonly used to
waterproof canvas.  The powder is still sold to make your own milk paint,
but I have two questions about it's properties when painted on canvas.

First, does milk paint waterproof canvas as well as latex paint does?

Two, does it increase the flamability of canvas as does latex paint?

Any milk painters out there who have done some field testing?

Thanks!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Scott Allen <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe


>I've found references to latex paint back to 1741. Find one in a
>colonial color and you should be fine.
>
>
>Your most humble servant,
>Scott Allen
>Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick
>Fairplay, MD
>http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:53:17 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes

Zaz, Gail, et al:

David Thompson's journals through his 24 years exploring the frontier for
both HBC and NWC document a strong preference by both traders and Indians
for wool over leather -- more when the weather was wet and cold rather than
just cold.  Furs are great when they are dry -- just ask an eskimo.

Thompson's journals also document, however, periodically wearing their
cloths into rags and having to make new clothes out of whatever was
available, including tent floors.

A new source of color painting that I recently discovered by Father Nicolas
Point show the fashion of the day (1841 to 1847) around the Hudson Bay
Company posts in NW Montana and N Idaho.  His paintings are mostly of
Indians, but he shows them dressed mostly in whiteman's woolen clothing
similar to that pictured in crude pictures by Indians of the traders.  The
confirm the presence and even abundance of Scotch caps, top hats, jocky
caps, capotes, and all sorts of things that many have questioned.

Have fun discovering these rich sources!

Dave T.
- -----Original Message-----
From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes


>Gail,
>
>I am not an expert on Hudson Bay traders, but would say it would be fine to
>use wool since that would have been perfered anyway in winter.
>
>As far as clothes, what kind of money are you willing to spend?  Wool cloth
>is not cheap and to buy already made clothes could cost well into the
>hundreds of dollars or even thousands (if you wanted to get very
elaborate.)
>
>A book you might want to look into (because it has a lot of drawings) would
>be "Volume 1.  The Fur Trade, A Sketchbook of the American Mountain Men" by
>Ted Spring.  Track of the Wolf publishes it and it can be bought through
>their catalog at Track of the Wolf, Box 6, Osseo, MN 55369 Phone (612)
>424-2500.  their catalog is good and I would also recomment the Dixie
>catalog (which I don't have their address handy, but I believe they have a
>web site.
>
>Other books would be any of the Fur Trade Sketchbooks or Books of
Buckskinning.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
>
>At 10:29 AM 2/20/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>Hello to all:
>>  Am new to the list.
>>
>>  I am being ask to interpret a Free Trapper on the Snake River Plateau in
>>1837. It is winter in the Museum scene.
>>
>>  Can someone help me with a catelog or two for my clothes. It is unlikely
>>that I will make them! And my wife has already said...........  you know!
>>In the scene, I am camped near a Hudson's Bay trader, so could'nt I have
>>wool rather than buckskin?
>>
>> Thanks
>>Gail
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:04:18 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes

Alan,

Somehow I lost track that you were the originator of this thread on HBC
trader clothing.  Dean's analysis of the Fort Hall trade lists will give you
all the detailed information you need for what Captain Thing, Francis
Ermatinger,  and their buddies wore.

Next time your in the neighborhood come by and I'll introduce you to my
library.  Boy do I have a deal for you.

After you left my camp Sunday, I packed up part of my gear and was then
overwhelmed by the need for a nap, which I took laying on top of my bedroll
without even putting  a coat on.  Sometimes the sun is a wonderful thing
when you can get out of the wind.  I found a piece of chocolate that dropped
out of my vest lying on top of the snow, and it had started to melt!

Ready to start the spring beaver hunt?  When does Rick get back from
Colorado?

Keep yer powder dry

Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes


>Hello the list,
>
>>>  I am being ask to interpret a Free Trapper on the Snake River Plateau
in
>>1837. It is winter in the Museum scene.
>>
>Check out Osborne Russels book, "Journal of a Trapper".  He was here in
that
>year, on the Snake River Plateau.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Allen Hall in Fort Hall country
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:44:46 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives

Thanks, but we're talking about two very different kinds of knives.
Although skinning knives of the buffalo hunting period were sometimes called
crooked knives, we were talking about the other crooked knives used
primarily as a woodworking tool for making snowshoes frames, canoes,
toboggans, runnered sleds, tool handles, furniture, and just about every
else constructed of wood north of the 45th paralell.   For some reason they
don't seem to have caught on to nearly the same degree in the Southwest or
Central Rocky Mountains.

If you are interested in learning about this other "crooked knife" tool, you
can find it described in several of Calvic Rutstrum's books, in Ellsworth
Jeager's "Wildwood Wisdom,"  James Hansen's "Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook,"
Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men," Henri
Vailencourt's "Making the Attikamek Snowshoe," various back issues of Beaver
Magazine, and other references.

The Hudson Bay Company last cataloged this crooked knife as the "canoe
knife."  It's design function is much the same as the farrier's knife.  It
is designed for superior leverage and control when pulled towards the body.
I've use a farrier's knife enough to know that the design is based on a
valid principle -- it works.

Have fun discovering the other crooked knife.

Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives


>In a message dated 98-02-20 00:39:21 EST, David Tippets wrote: looking for
>crooked knives.>>
>
>Page 120 of Panther Primatives cataloge #11 lists "Green River Knives and
has
>a crooked blade 'Buffalo Skinner 6" blade 10 1/2' overall.  The also show a
>Sheep Skinner with crooked blade 5 1/4" that is 9 3/4" overall.  both list
for
>under $15, both have plain wooden handle with rivits and may be close to
what
>you are looking for.  Their info phone # is 1-304-462-7718 and their order
#
>is 1-800-487-2684.
>
>Your humble servant
>
>C.T. Oakes
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:16:23 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bent's Fort

Henry,

The outfit I work for headquatered in Fort Collins had a bunch of Bent's
Fort Buffalo Soldier's do a program last week as part of a celebration of
Black History Month.  Is that the same bunch you play with?

Dave

- -----Original Message-----
From: Henry B. Crawford <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bent's Fort


>>I'd appreciate learning about how one gets on the volunteer list for
>>historic sites.  I don't clearly understand from your message if there's a
>>master list or if each site has it's own volunteer list.
>
>Each site coordinates its own list of volunteers, because different sites
>have different manpower and historical needs.  The phone number to Bent's
>Fort is 719/383-5023.  Talk to their VIP Coordiantor, Greg Holt.  They will
>send you an application.  You have to justify your impression and your
>props.  You will also be required to submit photos of yourself dressed in
>your outfit.  The Fort interprets 1846 because that was a pivotal year for
>the BSV company, mainly because of the War.  It was also the year they have
>the most documentation for, with descriptions from members of Kearny's Army
>of the West, and eyewitness accounts by Susan Magoffin.
>
>The summer event this year will commemorate Kearny's arrival at the end of
>July 1846.
>
>>Sounds like the good life.  Too bad time and money are limiting factors
for
>>most of us.  Each decade of the 19th Century has it's own attractions and
>>seductions.  I'd like to play at being a buffalo hunter.  I know places to
>>get the Sharps "Old Reliable" -- just can't find enough buffalo to make a
>>stand.
>
>Well, I started living history 18 years ago.  In the intervening time I
>made an effort to try to do as many periods as possible, for professional
>as well as personal reasons.  You'd be surprised how much stuff you can
>accumulate in 18 years.  I do buffalo hunters, Civil War, Buffalo Soldiers,
>and most any civilian frontier impresion.  Of course I do Mountain Man,
>Santa Fe Trail, Texas Army, etc.  Over the past 18 years I have collected
>or made the equipment needed to do all these impressions correctly.  I have
>enough clothing to outfit about 6 or 7 guys, including Civil War/Early
>Indian Wars uniform, civilian outfits, 'skins, boots, shoes, socs, and
>mocs.  There is also various knives, tools, lamps, cartridge belts, hats
>(boy are there hats!) campware, cookware, saddles, bullet molds, tents, and
>books, books, books and various and sundry other things.
>
>Yep you can accumulate a lot in 18 years.  But the buffalo are still
scarce.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>*************    So Long, Harry    **************
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:30:33 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel

Mike,

I sure agree that you can learn a lot travelling for awhile with just one
horse.

Tony Poovey told me that you'd put quite a few miles on a horse in the
backcountry.

Please share your on opinion on this.  Could a person gain more insight into
the life of a mountain man travelling in the wilderness for two weeks with a
short string of four pack horses,  or by travelling for a long weekend in
the wilderness with just a saddlehorse?

What say ye, Two Squaws, which teacher will teach the truest lesson -- the
long ride with the short string or the short ride with no string?


- -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Katona <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 11:05 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel


>Jerry and the group-
>Traveling on just a saddle horse is really good.  There is no better
>lesson on how to whittle your gear down to bare essentials.  I did my
>3 day loner on a borrowed mare in 83' in the Gila Wilderness.  A
>great experience.  Remind me some evening around a fire and I will
>tell you the whole story...forest fire and all.
>To gain a true feeling of what it was like in the old days, one must
>travel with one and preferably two pack critters.  The way I read it
>is that every man had a critter for his personal belonging and
>another for trapping gear.  It is sure a different experience!  Hence
>the term, Hudson's Bay starts.
>I will be riding into the National this summer on my 16 hand appy
>mule and dragging two pack animals behind me.  Two pack animals make
>life a lot easier on my 55 year old bones.
>Hope to see you there.
>Two Squaws Hiveranno
>AMM # 914
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:54:15 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Living Documentation

Zaz,

I'm not really into competition either, but think to add an element of
realism to the exercise both fatigue and time stress would be realistic
factors to add to the mix.

For example, this weekend we had our monthly AMM outing for the Northern
Utah and Southern Idaho area.  Friday night I left the road after dark on a
moonless night snowshoeing on about 10-12 feet of snow and was the first one
there.  Needless to say, Friday night's camp was a tad chilly.  Saturday, I
spent most of the day moving up onto a south facing slope and setting up a
good shelter and gathering lots of firewood.  Saturday night I had a warm
comfortable camp.  But which camp was most realistic for a one-night camp?
The warm camp would have been impossible had it been just one of many nights
on long trail between friends with a warm lodges and fat pups.

To host the shelter improvisation event and have it be meaningful, it
couldn't be set in casual ideal conditions with lots of good material, lots
of warm sunlight, and lots of time.  If it were, it would be like going to
Scout Camp instead of learning by living as the mountain men did.  Nothing
agin the Boy Scouts mind you, everyone has to go to kindergarten sometime.

- -----Original Message-----
From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Living Documentation


>David,
>
>Sounds a lot like what I want to do this summer (if I can get the time off
>my new job.)  I want to go on a 5 - 7 day horse trip with only the bare
>essentials.  Not sure where I will go or with whom.  If a pack animal is to
>be used, will depend on how many are on the trip.  If I go light, I can get
>away with carrying everything in my saddle bags and bed roll (which is how
I
>would perfer to go.)
>
>I have made shelters like what you are speaking of on primative backpacking
>trips and its not that big a deal to do.  Just need to take the time to do
>it right (and be in an area where there are materials that can be used to
>build a shelter.)  I would never carry a tent (documented or not) on a
horse
>trip because it is too heavy.  Besides, a comfortable and adequate shelter
>could usually be made from a combination of either canvas tarps, blankets
>and/or natural materials.
>
>The only thing I would say is, it doesn't have to be a competition; I'd do
>it because I wanted to.  I really only compete against myself anymore.
>
>As far as documenting any of this stuff, I really agree with Pat.  Common
>sense will tell you if it is historically correct of not.  Just because it
>is documented to have existed, doesn't mean they had it in the mountains at
>this time.  There are lots of things which have been documented to have
>existed in "civilization," and might have been seen once or twice in the
>mountains, but that is the exception and not the rule.  Just try and
imagine
>if you could live for 150 more years and you saw someone trying to re-enact
>the 1990s dressed in all designer clothes from Paris. Wouldn't you think it
>was funny if they tried to represent their clothes as everyday dress that
>was commonly warn?
>
>Anyway, you may be part of the group that does not even care.  Many don't
>and just want to have a good time, historically correct or not.  I don't
>want to get started on this topic.  As you can see I can go on and on.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
>
>At 08:55 AM 2/16/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Jerry,
>>
>>I'm actually feeling pretty radical on this topic of late, and am in the
>>mood to suggest a new way to document fur-trade period shelter types.
>>
>>This is what I suggest.  Assemble 12 teams of 4 mountain people each
(squaws
>>welcome).  Each team will be assigned 4 head of riding plus 4 head of
>>packstock.  The packstock will be loaded with everything needed for a
years
>>trapping in the mountains, as in leaving rendezvous.  Goods will be packed
>>in traditional mant'ied- fashion with sheeting, blanketing, pack covers,
or
>>other period correct packing fabric.
>>
>>The contest starts at daylight with the contestents riding through
>>mountainous country without modern-maintained trails.  They proceed
through
>>the day to where ever they happen to be at sunset, and are then givent he
>>senario that an early September snowstorm is blowing in.  While one member
>>of each team gets a fire going, the other three have to unpack the stock
and
>>using only the pack covers and manties to build a shelter to house the
group
>>of four through the snowstorm.
>>
>>During the night, Coyote is allowed to throw buckets of water at the team
>>from a distance of 10 feet.
>>
>>The next morning, judges inspect the teams and their shelters.  Any
shelter
>>that kept their team warm and dry through the night is there upon
considered
>>a documented fur-trade era shelter -- licensed for immitation by others.
>>
>>Wonder if I could sell the idea as an event for this year's Western
>>Nationals?  The biggest problem is most of us usually travel and camp as
>>though we were just the victims of a successful Blackfoot horse raid.  We
>>might have to first walk over the mountain to Fort Hall to first trade
for,
>>or steal, enough horses to enable us to have the contest.
>>
>>Dave
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #27
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