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hist_text-digest      Saturday, February 21 1998      Volume 01 : Number 026




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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:13:00 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Archdale info

You can check the telephone directories for the reservation areas online,
and then if Archdales pop up your can look up the telephone number for the
tribal offices and give them a call.     There seem's to be a rapidly
growing number of tribal web sites, but I haven't had occasion to check for
web sites at Rocky Boy or Fort Belnap.

You might want to check Longtrail Snowbird's website for link's.  They live
up on the Mussleshell River inbetween the Yellowstone and Missouri Rivers.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Peter Archdale <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 12:57 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Archdale info


>>Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:44:43 -0700
>>From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Archdale information wanted

>>I don't know how far this will get you, but if you don't already know,
maybe it will help<<

Thank you for replying - you have given me some great leads.  May I ask
a couple of supplementary questions?

>>You might check the Rocky Boy and Fort Belnap membership roles to see if
you can find people who share your surname<<

>>so it might not hurt to check Blackfoot tribal roles for Archdale's.<<


Are these available online?  How can I check these from England??

Once again, thanks for your help.

Peter

!^NavFont02F021B0006MGHHIdB928

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:52:48 -0600 (MDT)
From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives

Date:          Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:05:06 -0800
From:          Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives
To:            [e-mail]
Reply-to:      [e-mail]

David Tippets wrote:
>

> even though their crooked knife is of the traditional HBC pattern, it is
> made with stainless steel and a laminated handle.

I'm a horseshoer, and I'm thinking that a crooked knife and a hoof knife
are about the same thing.  I've never actually held a "crooked knife"
but photos of same look just like a hoof knife.  Hoof knives are made
with wooden handles, come in a couple of sizes, and are made for both
the left and right handed horseshoer.  You might stop by a feed store or
farm supply store and see what you think.
            Dale Nelson

I've got a hoof knife that I have used as a crooked knife for carving
and it works very well.  I do NOT know however. how differently the
two would be shaped.


Regards,

Rick Williams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:29:27 -0800
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Clothes

Hello to all:
  Am new to the list.

  I am being ask to interpret a Free Trapper on the Snake River Plateau in
1837. It is winter in the Museum scene.

  Can someone help me with a catelog or two for my clothes. It is unlikely
that I will make them! And my wife has already said...........  you know!
In the scene, I am camped near a Hudson's Bay trader, so could'nt I have
wool rather than buckskin?

 Thanks
Gail

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:30:37 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives

Several issues back the Museum of the Fur Trade had an extensive article of
"crooked knives".  Just for info.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:44:52 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives

In a message dated 98-02-20 00:39:21 EST, David Tippets wrote: looking for
crooked knives.>>

Page 120 of Panther Primatives cataloge #11 lists "Green River Knives and has
a crooked blade 'Buffalo Skinner 6" blade 10 1/2' overall.  The also show a
Sheep Skinner with crooked blade 5 1/4" that is 9 3/4" overall.  both list for
under $15, both have plain wooden handle with rivits and may be close to what
you are looking for.  Their info phone # is 1-304-462-7718 and their order #
is 1-800-487-2684.

Your humble servant

C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:41:24 -0800
From: Dave Parks <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Crooked  Knives

There have been a couple of recent posts on HBC Crooked knives. These
are not to be confused with the crooked knives used to trim horse
hooves. The HBC crooked knife blade has a bend of about 15 degrees
halfway down it's length. This bend is between the back of the blade and
it's cutting edge, not a 180 degree turn at the end of the blade as with
the crooked knife used on horses hooves. For years (before their demise)
Herters of Waseca, MN. used to offer their "Guides Crooked Knife" it was
a great knife and I owned a couple of them over the years. If you were
to try to picture one, about the closest thing to come to one, would be
the Russell Green River "Skinning Knife". It has the radical turn in the
blade, halfway down. It works great on large hides like deer, elk,
buffalo and cattle. But, I find it too big for 90% of the skinning I do
on beaver, otter, coon, coyote, muskrat & mink. My favorite skinning
knives are the Finnish Rapala 6" fillet knife, the Gerber "Pixie" and
the Case #1520 "Trapper Knife". The latter remains in my pocket
year-round. Spring is right around the corner and the Voo'ing season
will be here before we know it. Now is the time of year I start getting
itchy to go. It's a good time to go through my gear and make sure all is
in order.....at least it's something to do that's related to our hobby
during these ho-hum late winter days.

                          Regards,  _M_  Manywounds
                                     W

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:27:04 -0700
From: William Metcalfe <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe

What waterproof treatment would be recommended by the list for a canvas
covered wood canoe or kayak?

- --
William Metcalfe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:43:55 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives

At 09:52 AM 2/20/98 , Rick Williams wrote:

>I've got a hoof knife that I have used as a crooked knife for carving
>and it works very well.  I do NOT know however. how differently the
>two would be shaped.
>
A hoof knife makes a good crooked knife, better for smaller items like
noggins, ladles, spoons and such with it's tight end curl.

Most commercial crooked knife blades have a much more gradual and extended
curve to the tip.  Some are called canoe knife.  the broader sweep is
better for larger relief cuts like on trenchers and canoe ribs.  Canoe
knives generally have a longer section of straight blade than most other
crook knives.  These were also called a man's knife.  A Swedish carver's
hook knife is another form of crooked knife.  These are currently cataloged
by several suppliers.

In viewing several hundred old crook knives over the years I can state with
certainty there is no one standard for blade curve, shape or size.  They
are made in left and right hand versions, having both is less useful than
you'd think.

Some woodcarving tool suppliers have offered crook knife blade blanks over
the years.  Some of the better blacksmiths make fine blades.  Woodcraft
Supply used to offer one from Sheffield, I haven't seen it in the catalog
in years -- but, I haven't recently looked closely.

Good blades can be fashioned from old pitch fork tines, industrial hacksaw
blade, or I've had good luck reworking sole knife blades purchased at
Leather Finding Suppliers, and old butcher knives of good steel but no
particular value.

Handles are a personal expression of the maker/user many old ones I've seen
are exquisitely and fancifully carved.  Some are very plain.  Traditionally
you make your own handle.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:  Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<  -  >>>As good as old!<<<
http://www.kramerize.com/
mail to: john<[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:43:56 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred) (by way of Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Dead Horses & Tipis

"Sickler, Louis L" [e-mail] wrote :
> What time period would be appropriate for CANVAS tipis ?? Seems to me
> that in the early 1800's,tipis would have been made of leather. Could be=
=20
> canvas tipis are as late in the rendezvous period as a pyramid.

>From the journal of North West Company fur trader Alexander Henry the=20
Younger, at Pembina R. post:
Dec. 4, 1803. "an Indian Tent of five families took fire and was burnt to=20
the ground and every thing consumed. They had just taken Debts to the amount=
=20
of near 200 Skins. The Powder was saved, but never one skin of the Goods=20
will be paid by them." (Henry & Gough, 1:151)
Apr. 10, 1804. "An Indian's tent of eight families caught on Fire by the=20
carelessness of the children, and was burnt to the ground and every thing=20
consumed. The four families that were burnt out in the forepart of the=20
Winter has now again their little property once more destroyed." (Henry &=20
Gough, 1:156)

As far as I know, you can't burn leather--but then, I haven't really tried!

On Hudson's Bay, in 1786 (from David Thompson's memoirs) :=20
"=85parties of three or four men [are formed], each for grouse shooting,=20
snareing hares &c. Each party has a canvas tent, like a soldier's bell tent=
=20
with the top cut off to let the smoke out." (Thompson's Narrative, 28)

Thompson was writing for an audience that might not be at all familiar with=
=20
tipis.

In the Fort Chipewyan area (N. Alberta), from the journal of Royal Navy=20
Midshipman Robert Hood, 1820 :
"[Copper Indian Chief Gros Pied] preserved as much distance from them [his=
=20
band] as a savage state will admit, occupying a canvas tent with his two=20
wives, and carefully avoiding all manual labour." (Hood, 138)

What does this all mean? Well, I wouldn't call it proof, but it doesn't rule=
=20
canvas tipis out, either. However, it is equally clear from the rest of my=
=20
reading that leather was the usual material for all kinds of tents=20
(especially tipis) in my period (W. Canada, 1774-1821).

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:18:38 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (Allen Hall)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes

Hello the list,

>>  I am being ask to interpret a Free Trapper on the Snake River Plateau in
>1837. It is winter in the Museum scene.
>
Check out Osborne Russels book, "Journal of a Trapper".  He was here in that
year, on the Snake River Plateau.

Good luck,

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 06:17:05 -0800 (PST)
From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes

Gail,

I am not an expert on Hudson Bay traders, but would say it would be fine to
use wool since that would have been perfered anyway in winter.

As far as clothes, what kind of money are you willing to spend?  Wool cloth
is not cheap and to buy already made clothes could cost well into the
hundreds of dollars or even thousands (if you wanted to get very elaborate.)

A book you might want to look into (because it has a lot of drawings) would
be "Volume 1.  The Fur Trade, A Sketchbook of the American Mountain Men" by
Ted Spring.  Track of the Wolf publishes it and it can be bought through
their catalog at Track of the Wolf, Box 6, Osseo, MN 55369 Phone (612)
424-2500.  their catalog is good and I would also recomment the Dixie
catalog (which I don't have their address handy, but I believe they have a
web site.

Other books would be any of the Fur Trade Sketchbooks or Books of Buckskinning.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488


At 10:29 AM 2/20/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hello to all:
>  Am new to the list.
>
>  I am being ask to interpret a Free Trapper on the Snake River Plateau in
>1837. It is winter in the Museum scene.
>
>  Can someone help me with a catelog or two for my clothes. It is unlikely
>that I will make them! And my wife has already said...........  you know!
>In the scene, I am camped near a Hudson's Bay trader, so could'nt I have
>wool rather than buckskin?
>
> Thanks
>Gail
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:47:59 -0500
From: [e-mail] (charles l chalk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe

Bill,
Contact the Old Town Canoe Co. in Old Town, Maine. They carry all
supplies to rework old canvas canoes including copper nails and some
great literature. Did one myself a few years back. Plan on hard work and
some bloody knuckles as you strech the canvas!
Charles Chalk
Merrimack, N.H. 03054



On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:27:04 -0700 William Metcalfe
<[e-mail]> writes:
>What waterproof treatment would be recommended by the list for a
>canvas
>covered wood canoe or kayak?
>
>--
>William Metcalfe
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 14:06:18 -0500
From: Linda Holley <"[e-mail]"@Jacksonville.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Burning leather???

OH! YES!  you can burn leather.  Just ask any of out brain tanners out
there who have royalllllly screwed up smoking a hide.  As the hide get
dried out it burn.  Just imagine the fires is these leather tipis and
all the residue that has built up in the top area.  It will burn.  I
lost a canvas one to fire and can imagine a leather one going up.

Also....the earliest documentation I have on cloth tipis goes to about
1856....and that is just in a passing journal.  But we use cloth today
because who has 10.000$ to buy a buffalo hide tipi???????  Any lottery
winners out there????

Linda Holley

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 19:34:43 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Amos Polk--- gunmaker

MtMan list:

can anyone provide any info about Amos Polk gunmaker--- type or style of
rifles made, his working period, his location in this country, any info
would be appreciated.  I have exhausted my books that i have available
and cannot find any info about this gunmaker.

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

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