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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #24 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, February 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 024 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:53:41 -0800 From: Frank Stewart <MedicineBear@Hawken54.sparks.nv.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beating dead horses and pyramid tents David Tippets wrote: > bean and cabrito burritoes. Pyramid schmiramid, those sound good!!! (okay, I'll behave myself now...my belly had to say that!) MB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:44:18 EST From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Hello, Many thanks to those who gave me advice on log homes. Now I need the proper channels for this. Since I am restricted to Juno I've been unable to contact the proper e-mailing lists. If anyone knows of a good e-mail list please do let me know as it is pertaining to log cabin restoration or old home restorations. Am interested in talking with indiviuals who do this for a living and would like an apprentice...wouldn't mind relocating within reasonable distances. Have had experience in new house building but am interested in either restoration of log homes or old homes also new houses reproductions. Have gotten some info on one person in Ohio who does this and also another person in Penn. as well. Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 10:09:27 PST From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Sorry you were being crushed----hopefully your tongue was firmly planted in your cheek. What constitutes " historically correct"? If it WAS used, even if only once by one person then is it not historically correct? Easy setup is just that--easy--no, it is not a race. If common useage is the criterion to use then we all should simply roll up in a blanket on the ground as most trappers did. I use my pyramid tent only at buckskinner club rendezvous (never been to a "Rondy") in the midst of tents and accouterments of all kinds, the origins of some of which can be traced no further back than the turn of THIS century. I still manage to have fun, which is why I go in the first place. This whole silly flap is traceable to people answering someone's question of how to transport a tipi to rendezvous with a compact car, and their suggesting that there are other useable tents that can be much more easily carried. I wonder if there was ever a single mountaineer who carried around a tipi while plying his trade. I don't remember reading any journal that suggests that ( but I love to see tipis scattered around a camp). I have read many accounts of trappers wintering with friendly Indians and sleeping in tipis, but many others built crude huts and semi-enclosed lean-to's. I would love to hear those men laugh at this discussion. Lanney Ratcliff - ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:47:58 -0700 From: "L. A. Romsa" <LROMSA1@missc.state.wy.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beating dead horses and pyramid tents -Reply Working to play(period correct) may be fun and exciting, but this = thread is reminding me of music. The old classical musicians just played = the music they felt. Years later, people started analyzing what they did = and why, and set rules! Did these players stick to these rules or did they just play what they = felt? In other words,, Didi the mountain man worry about rules or did they use = what ever means they could thing of, or copy, to make life, as it was, = easier? Some Mountain Men were more creative then others,,,,Don't ya = think? just a penny for my thoughts. BrokenJaw ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 98 15:29:46 +0000 From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Look for the book the Diary of Susan Magoffin. It tells of her honeymoon trip as a teenage bride. David Tippets wrote: >Who was this Susan Magoffin, and where do I read about her trip? > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:50:18 -0500 From: darlene <darlene@sssnet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi dear little beaver sorry it took so long to get back to you.i don't know if everybody wants to hear the story,but hear goes. i had only been shooting b/p about 1 season when we were at a b/p shoot.i was shooting with a couple of freinds & we were talking & i forgot to put powder before the ball.dah!!!!! someone said let's give it a hot foot,& i said ok.he said that i should have enough powder to hit the target (30 yrds) & i said i don't think so.he then said well then shoot it at that tree (an ironwood,the hardest wood known to all man kind) so i did.as i pulled the trigger i could see the ball leave the barrel,it hit the tree & bounced bak & hit me in the forehead & i said oh s!!! i just shot myself.so there you have it. oh yea the only reason i did it on the list is so everyone can have a laugh. i think i know you but not quite sure.if you had an iguana at the eastern in 96 we talked alot about that. email me sometime & we can talk more. until our paths cross again your loyal servant shootshimselfAt 07:54 AM 2/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Shootshimself: I have never replyed on this site either, but I can't pass >up this time.I have been to the Eastern many times and been gate captain a >couple. I have never heard the story of how you got your name . Love to hear it. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:44:36 +0000 From: "Mike Katona" <mkatona@pdx.oneworld.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Jerry and the group- Traveling on just a saddle horse is really good. There is no better lesson on how to whittle your gear down to bare essentials. I did my 3 day loner on a borrowed mare in 83' in the Gila Wilderness. A great experience. Remind me some evening around a fire and I will tell you the whole story...forest fire and all. To gain a true feeling of what it was like in the old days, one must travel with one and preferably two pack critters. The way I read it is that every man had a critter for his personal belonging and another for trapping gear. It is sure a different experience! Hence the term, Hudson's Bay starts. I will be riding into the National this summer on my 16 hand appy mule and dragging two pack animals behind me. Two pack animals make life a lot easier on my 55 year old bones. Hope to see you there. Two Squaws Hiveranno AMM # 914 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:58:37 -0800 From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western Mountain Man Clothing circa 1816-1825 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3BE6.D1201720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - ---------- : From: David A. Miller <dammiller@juno.com> : To: hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Western Mountain Man Clothing circa 1816-1825 : Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 5:49 PM : : Ho the Camp!!!! : touch this question as to: What "Pants and Shirts" would one : find on a person working the fur trade in the rocky mountains during the : years stated in the subject line? : : Well here it goes read the Mt Man sketch books 1 and 2 . I am sure they were like us some could tan and some not David Thompson couldn't. Talked about throwing away Moose hides because there wasn't any women in camp to tan them. I know that the Mt Men would almost fight for the store bought cloths remember they didn't take homemec. and didn't learn how to sew. I am sure they traded with Indian women to make clothes with leather, and trade cloth which was very expensive. Read Osborne Russell's book will also help. Drop front pants and pull over shirt wool or cotton. Looks like you have got some reading ahead of you. later Jon T - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3BE6.D1201720 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> ---------- : From: David A. = Miller <dammiller@juno.com> : To: hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Western Mountain Man = Clothing circa 1816-1825 : Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 5:49 = PM : : Ho the Camp!!!! : touch this question as to: = What "Pants and Shirts" would one : find on a person = working the fur trade in the rocky mountains during the : years = stated in the subject line? : : Well here it goes read the Mt Man = sketch books 1 and 2 . I am sure they were like us some could tan = and some not David Thompson couldn't. Talked about throwing = away Moose hides because there wasn't any women in camp to tan them. = I know that the Mt Men would almost fight for the store bought = cloths remember they didn't take homemec. and didn't learn how to sew. = I am sure they traded with Indian women to make clothes with = leather, and trade cloth which was very expensive. Read Osborne = Russell's book will also help. Drop front pants and pull over = shirt wool or cotton. Looks like you have got some reading ahead = of you. later Jon T </body></html> - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3BE6.D1201720-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:17:17 -0700 From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beating dead horses and pyramid tents-Reply This has been an interesting thread - but I'd like to observe that that it's pointless to debate whether a particular style of tent should or should not be used at living history activities. Remember, e-mail list subscribers portray a wide range of historical personnas, in different time periods and geographic regions, and belong to a variety of organizations with different rules and standards of authenticity. What is valuable, though, is to share what historical information we have and let each person make their own decisions if an item is appropriate for their activites. As for Pyramid tents, a quick summary of the references I've heard mentioned so far: Francis Parkman's Journals, on the Oregon Trail in 1846 (mentions single pole tents, pg 1-425). Susan Magofin's Diary, 1846, Santa Fe Trail (pg?) A. J. Miller painting that shows what looks like a pyramid tent (Provo's tent, in "Catching Up", 1837). Has anyone mentioned Sage yet? Sage, Rufus. Rocky Mountain Life. page 37. On his way up the Platte in 1841, Sage make specific reference to a "small pyramid-shaped tent" in camp. A summary of references for wedge tents: A. J. Miller paintings that show what looks like a wedge tent ("Our Camp", "Crossing the River:moonllight" 1836) Uh, at the moment, Miller is the only wedge tent reference I can recall. Did anyone cite any other references for wedge tents that I missed? For the record, I don't use either type of tent when I can avoid it ! - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:01:40 -0700 From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Tipi documentation. At 10:09 AM 2/17/98 PST, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: >I wonder if there was >ever a single mountaineer who carried around a tipi while plying his trade. > I don't remember reading any journal that suggests that ( but I love to >see tipis scattered around a camp). I have read many accounts of trappers >wintering with friendly Indians and sleeping in tipis, but many others >built crude huts and semi-enclosed lean-to's. >---------- > That sounds like a worthy challenge. Here are a few references I found that suggest trappers using their own lodges (not just visiting Indians). Journal of Peter Skene Ogden; Snake Expedition, 1828-1829 "Thursday 25th. ... We remained to make our tent poles(3) beyond this is no wood fit for the purpose. ... ......... Tuesday 30th Sept. Sent off 6 men with lodges to Burnt River from thence to go up River Malheur where we shall meet. ......" Editor T. C. Elliot makes the following note to the Thursday 25th entry: "These lodgepoles were destined to be dragged a long way and their marks across the Plains and mountains served to mark the track of future wagon and stage and railroads." JOURNAL OF ALEXANDER ROSS - SNAKE COUNTRY EXPEDITION, 1824 Tuesday, 10th of February. Our party was as follows: Thyery Goddin 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Joseph Vail 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Louis Paul 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses 1 lodge Francois Faniaint 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Antoine Sylvaille 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Laurent Quintal 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Joseph Annance 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Jean Bapt Gadaira 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Pierre Depot 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Francois Rivet, interp 2 guns 6 traps 15 horses 1 lodge Alexander Ross 1 gun 6 traps 16 horses 1 lodge Invoice of Sundry Merchandise furnished Rocky Mountain Outfit 1837 under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick & Co. 6 Indian Skin Lodges for Baling 1 Lodge for Packing for the Rocky Mountains Victor, Francis Fuller. River of the West (as told by Joe Meek) chap 9 "Having rested and refreshed themselves at the stream, they kept on without much delay until they reached camp in that beautiful valley of the Rocky Mountains called the New, or the South Park. While they remained in the South Park, Mr. Guthrie, one of the Rocky Mountain Company's traders, was killed by lightning. A number of persons were collected in the lodge of the Booshway, Frapp, to avoid the rising tempest, when Guthrie, who was leaning against the lodge pole, was struck by a flash of the electric current, and fell dead instantly. Frapp rushed out of the lodge, partly bewildered himself by the shock, and under the impression that Guthrie had been shot. Frapp was a German, and spoke English somewhat imperfectly. In the excitement of the moment he shouted out, " Py Gott, who did shoot Guttery ! " Accounts of Columbia River Fishing and Trading Company at Ft Hall On 18-Nov-1835, Osborne Russell purchased 1/4 of a lodge for $10.875 (chipped in with 3 companions). They spent that winter at "Mutton Hill", away from the fort. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:55:52 -0500 From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. I think its kinda funny that at the Alafia River Ronny in Jan, there were ALL sorts of tents... from Marques, to tipis, to wall tents, to pyramid, etc... on and on... everything you can think of was there. That I know of, no one came up to anybody and told them that their tent was not "period". We were all there to have fun, and have fun we did <grin>... SeanBear (aka Addison Miller) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:38:37 -0700 From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Pat, Thanks for the citation on Ms. Magoffin. My progenitor on Santa Fe Trail's name was John H. Tippets. His journal is in Special Collection at the Utah State University Library in Logan, UT. It's unlikely he paused to dally with Ms. Magoffin; he didn't discover younger women for a couple of decades yet to come. Dave Tippets - -----Original Message----- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com <Mtnman1449@aol.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 8:40 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. >David-- >More about Susan Magoffin??? Read "Down the Santa Fe Trail and into Mexico"' >the diary of Ssuan Shelby Magoffin, 1846-47, published by Univ. of Nebraska >Press, Bison Books, . What was your great, great grandfathers name? I'll see >if she mentions him is her diary!! Happy reading. >pat surrena #1449 > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 00:16:40 -0700 From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi documentation. Dean, Didn't Ogden marry and Indian, and take her and his children with him on his expeditions? This suggests to me that if he was living in a tipi, he was living with an Indian and some half-breeds. A good share of Ogden's men also traveled with their Indian wives and families, did they not? As I recall, didn't he start his first Snake expedition with over 300 head of horses? You could move a pretty elaborate camp with that many horses. In effect, the Snake Brigade trappers always lived without he Indians because the married them and took them along to tend camp. Good idea! A few years ago, I participated in putting on the American Indian Math and Science Camp on the Flathead Reservation in Montana. Sitting around the fire one day with our tribal liaison, I observed that there wasn't much math in the Math and Science Camp. Our liaison, a Nez Perce, responded by promptly creating a story problem for the kids to solve. Roughly, this was the problem: If the camp's council lodge was made of buffalo skins instead of canvas; how many buffalo would it take, how much would it weigh, and how many horses would be required to transport the lodge? By the time the kids worked out the solution to the problem, this is what it came down to. No pack horse could carry that big of load directly on its back. The travois is required to distribute some of the load of a big skin lodge onto the the ground. Then more horses are required to transport the poles in travois fashion. That all works fine if you don't have to traverse sidehills to any significant amount. That's why major historic Indian trails, such as the Nez Perce Trail from the Palouse Prairie to the buffalo hunting grounds on the Mussleshell, go straight up and down ridges or stream bottoms. Horses can't pull heavily-laden travois across sidehills. The travois either swing downhill, or the travois start to bounce and flip over (not a good thing to subject a horse to). So the question is, would Ogden have want to slow his Snake River Brigade down by limiting their routes to places they could pull travois loaded with lodges? On the other hand, with an abundance of Indian women in camp, they could make winter lodges as winter approached. When time came to start the spring hunt, they could cut the lodges up into usable pieces of leather and once again travel faster and lighter. Dean, I recall hearing you say in the past that you thought mountain men often acquired tipis for their winter camps, but didn't use them the rest of the year. That's common sense. Happy travois trails, Dave - -----Original Message----- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 11:11 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Tipi documentation. >At 10:09 AM 2/17/98 PST, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: >>I wonder if there was >>ever a single mountaineer who carried around a tipi while plying his trade. >> I don't remember reading any journal that suggests that ( but I love to >>see tipis scattered around a camp). I have read many accounts of trappers >>wintering with friendly Indians and sleeping in tipis, but many others >>built crude huts and semi-enclosed lean-to's. >>---------- >> > >That sounds like a worthy challenge. Here are a few references I found >that suggest trappers using their own lodges (not just visiting Indians). > > > >Journal of Peter Skene Ogden; Snake Expedition, 1828-1829 >"Thursday 25th. ... We remained to make our tent poles(3) beyond this is no >wood fit for the purpose. ... >......... Tuesday 30th Sept. Sent off 6 men with lodges to Burnt River from >thence to go up River Malheur where we shall meet. ......" >Editor T. C. Elliot makes the following note to the Thursday 25th entry: >"These lodgepoles were destined to be dragged a long way and their marks >across the Plains and mountains served to mark the track of future wagon >and stage and railroads." > > >JOURNAL OF ALEXANDER ROSS - SNAKE COUNTRY EXPEDITION, 1824 >Tuesday, 10th of February. Our party was as follows: > Thyery Goddin 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Joseph Vail 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Louis Paul 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses 1 lodge > Francois Faniaint 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Antoine Sylvaille 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Laurent Quintal 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Joseph Annance 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Jean Bapt Gadaira 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Pierre Depot 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Francois Rivet, interp 2 guns 6 traps 15 horses 1 lodge > Alexander Ross 1 gun 6 traps 16 horses 1 lodge > > >Invoice of Sundry Merchandise furnished Rocky Mountain Outfit 1837 under >charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick & Co. >6 Indian Skin Lodges for Baling >1 Lodge for Packing for the Rocky Mountains > > >Victor, Francis Fuller. River of the West (as told by Joe Meek) chap 9 >"Having rested and refreshed themselves at the stream, they kept on without >much delay until they reached camp in that beautiful valley of the Rocky >Mountains called the New, or the South Park. While they remained in the >South Park, Mr. Guthrie, one of the Rocky Mountain Company's traders, was >killed by lightning. A number of persons were collected in the lodge of the >Booshway, Frapp, to avoid the rising tempest, when Guthrie, who was leaning >against the lodge pole, was struck by a flash of the electric current, and >fell dead instantly. Frapp rushed out of the lodge, partly bewildered >himself by the shock, and under the impression that Guthrie had been shot. >Frapp was a German, and spoke English somewhat imperfectly. In the >excitement of the moment he shouted out, " Py Gott, who did shoot Guttery ! " > > >Accounts of Columbia River Fishing and Trading Company at Ft Hall >On 18-Nov-1835, Osborne Russell purchased 1/4 of a lodge for $10.875 >(chipped in with 3 companions). They spent that winter at "Mutton Hill", >away from the fort. > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com >Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 02:47:30 -0800 From: Omanson & Hollinger <homanger@wstcm1.westco.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersmen Here are a few preliminary facts on a family of Virginians who immigrated to Kentucky in the 1780s. I am only in the preliminary stages of researching them, and my sources are disorganised and of unknown reliability, being mostly family letters written about a century after the events described. I will provide further clues as I uncover them. The father of this family was Abraham Swango (anglicized from "Schwangau") a German who came over by way of Holland with his parents and two brothers in 1747, landing in Philadelphia in October of that year. The mother died on the voyage over and the father died very soon after landing. Saddled with considerable debts, the three brothers worked as indentured servants to a maker of Conestoga wagons for the next seven years. Once out of debt, the brothers seperated. William stayed on with the wagon maker until he could earn enough to lease a farm. He married a girl from Ireland, Ailsie Pyles, in 1760. Immediately thereafter the newlyweds leased a farm from George Washington in Frederick County, Virginia. They had seven children, including four sons. The three which concern us, James, Samuel and William, were born in 1762, '65 & '76 respectively. The father, Abraham, served under Washington somewhere "on the frontier" during the Revolutionary War (I haven't yet confirmed this). The eldest son, James, though but 15, joined up and served under Col Henry Lee in the Delaware area. By the fall of 1782 the family had purchased a farm in Berkeley County, Virginia (now West Va). But in the fall of 1783 the whole family pulled up stakes and joined a caravan travelling south into the Shenandoah valley and then eastward into the mountains. Their route was along the Wilderness Road, including stops at Ingles Ferry (where one account suggests that they met Mary Draper Ingles and heard first-hand her account of being captured by the Shawnee~ but I haven't tried to verify this yet), Moccasin Gap, Martin's Station, Cumberland Gap and stopped finally at Logan Station. (I haven't yet had a chance to trace this on a period map). They evidently began their journey in a Conestoga wagon but were told at Ingles Ferry that they would never get the wagon over the mountains, and so switched to a two-wheeled cart hauled by a pair of oxen. The family settled near Bryan's Fort for a couple of years, but then moved into what is now Gallatin County, a few miles west of Covington. Around 1783, James Swango, back from the war, joined the caravans travelling the Wilderness Road back and forth between Virginia and Kentucky, working as a scout, protector and hunter. Samuel Swango did the same work on the Wilderness Road for two years beginning in 1787, while William Swango worked the same route as a scout in 1801 & '02. In one letter from around 1900, a Swango relates a story told many times by an elder Swango that two of these brothers (I forget which two, but probably James & Samuel) were in a fight with Indians together and were seperated, with each believing the other had been captured and killed. In fact, both survived, but both lived to the end of their lives believing the other was dead, and each going to his grave without learning the truth. This sounds pretty implausible to me, but I'll withold judgement till I can gather further evidence one way or the other. After Samuel's stint as a scout, he married a girl from Frederick County, Va, Elizabeth Johnston (O'Banion) in December 1789. They apparently settled for a few years in Virginia, had two children, including a boy, Abraham, born in 1790 (about which we will hear more later). In 1794 they joined a caravan travelling into Kentucky, which included the Trimble, O'Hair, Murphy, Lacy, Landsaw and Kash families. Samuel and Elizabeth settled near Mt Sterling, had a couple more girls, then moved to better hunting territory on the Red River in Powell County 1797. This was frontier country, with no established communities, though there were neighbors. An account of Samuel's life at this time states that the economy was largely barter, clothes were chiefly of deerskin, food was centered around corn and game, including bear, from which they also used grease and skins for rugs, coats and even temporary roof thatching. The same account mentions too that Samuel's most essential possession was (natch) his muzzleloader. I'll provide more information as I accumulate it. One Swango was with George Rogers Clark at Vincennes, and Samuel's son, Abraham, fought against the British and combined tribes associated with Tecumseh in upper Michigan, after which he took a boat down the Ohio and Mississippi where he stood with other Kentuckians under Jackson and stopped the British at New Orleans. Details to follow. I would be greatly obliged to the List for any speculation or tips for further research regarding the probable weapons, garb & equipment of the Swango brothers in their careers as scouts on the Wilderness Road between 1783~1802 and on the Kentucky frontier in the 1790s. Also suggestions for replicating the same. I have begun shopping around hereabouts (Morgantown, West Virginia) for a vintage late 18th-c. or early 19th-c. muzzleloader, as many were made in this region and they still surface. I assume all responsibility for any historical errors & ignorances in the above account, and will accept all chastisement, ridicule & correction with good grace. I'm strictly a novice in these matters and fully expect to be set straight on a regular basis. Bradley Omanson, great-great-great-great-great grandson of Samuel Swango ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 00:54:49 -0700 From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HBC today; lampwick Angela, You've come through again. I've been wondering where I could get more information on gartering. Where's the mother load on this one? Did gartering come with decorative patterns during the pre-1821 period that you've studied? Craig McDonald currently sells lampwick in bulk. The Nothwest Company has, so far, been a big disappointment to me in that they don't seem to have much interest in serving serious modern or traditional outdoor needs. For shame -- you'd think that they'd at least carry crooked knives and duffle socks. They just don't make trading posts like they used to. Dave - -----Original Message----- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com <hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 12:52 PM Subject: MtMan-List: HBC today; lampwick >mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) wrote: >>The fur trade is still with us today. Hudson's Bay Company, founded in >>1670 for the sole purpose of trading furs, is still a viable trading >>company, and remains the oldest corporation in North America today. > >Bravo! I might add a few points to update you folks south of the 49th to >what the HBC is up to now. They no longer trade in furs (aside from fur >coats); instead, they operate a chain of department stores as "The Bay" (but >their formal name is still the "Company of Adventurers Trading into Hudson's >Bay", and their 1670 charter is a prized possession). The Bay bought the >Zellers discount department stores about 20 years ago; a few weeks ago, they >bought K-Mart Canada. I believe fur trading and general stores are still >carried on by the Northern Stores; this was the fur trading branch of the >Bay in northern Canada until the Bay spun it off into its own separate >division. The Northern Stores are now independent and operate under the name >"North West Company" (which they are historically entitled to!). > >Three or four years ago, the Bay donated all their archival material and >collections to the Manitoba Museum of Man & Nature in Winnipeg, along with >the money to build a new wing to store & display it all. The Manitoba Museum >also holds the full-size reproduction of the Nonsuch, the ship that carried >on the HBC's first successful trading voyage to Hudson's Bay in 1668-1669. >The reproduction was built in 1970 for the 300th anniversary of the HBC, and >reenacted the trans-Atlantic voyage. > >Lampwick for snowshoes? > >I've studied lots of inventories and lists of trade goods for the North West >Company and HBC dating to the 1774-1821 time period, and I haven't seen lamp >wick listed. However, "gartering" is a common trade item that could well >have been used to lace on snowshoes in the way David Tippets described. >Gartering (also called ferreting) is a kind of coarse ribbon or tape meant >to be cut to length and used as garters. Canadian fur traders imported it in >very long pieces, easily 8 feet or more. > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:44:43 -0700 From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Archdale information wanted Peter, I don't know how far this will get you, but if you don't already know, maybe it will help. I'm not too familiar with the history of Fort Peck Agency, but have had some experience working with native peoples from the other agencies in Montana. Some of Archdale's 14 children could have wound with memberships at a couple of other agencies that got large numbers of Metis descendents. If all Archdale's wives were Assinoboine, however, they probably stuck pretty close to their own tribe. As the frontier era came to a close in Montana there were a lot of Metis hunter and gather groups still living off the land with a nomadic lifestyle. Generally speaking, they weren't accepted by the large Plains Indian tribes that were dominant in Montana -- the Blackfoot, Crow, and Northern Cheyene. Rocky Boy and Fort Belnap Indian Reservations were created and provided a home for the smaller tribal and Metis groups who were not accepted by the larger tribal groups. You might check the Rocky Boy and Fort Belnap membership roles to see if you can find people who share your surname. There was also a fairly large group of Metis who set up camp on the edge of the city of Great Falls, Montana, and refused to go to the reservation. They remain a distinct cultural group in Great Falls today, and are referred to as the landless or Big Sky Indians of Montana. You can get the Great Falls telephone directory online and check the names. On the mountainous western side of Montana, the Flathead and Nez Perce accepted the mixed blood children. In fact, as the Rocky Mountain rendezvous-period fur trade came to a close, many of the mixed-blood mountain men married into the Flathead and Nez Perce tribes and lived happily ever after -- so to speak. Most of these Metis, however, were probably descended from people associated with the Northwest and Hudson Bay Fur Companies who opereated trading posts in in the heart of tribal lands, rather than the American Fur Company. The American Fur Company post highest upriver on the Missouri was in the heart of Blackfoot country, and there are a few tribal members today carrying the surnames of traders, so it might not hurt to check Blackfoot tribal roles for Archdale's. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 03:28:39 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Interesting Webpage Hi All... Found an interesting site the other day. It's called "Thuels Relic Shop" and has photos of some actual relics from the Rendezvous era. It's at: http://www.infolink.morris.mn.us/~rbanders/relic.html Usual disclaimer of nothing in it fer me, just some interesting info, nice pieces. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:06:47 EST From: JFLEMYTH@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK JSeminario, Thanks for leting us know about this tradgedy. I will pray for them, and I don't say that lightly. I am a Pastor! I am glad you can help give a little comfort to a family in a time that doesn't make any sense. John Fleming ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 07:12:56 PST From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi documentation. That is good information. Thanks for taking the time. Lanney Ratcliff - ---------- > At 10:09 AM 2/17/98 PST, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > >I wonder if there was > >ever a single mountaineer who carried around a tipi while plying his trade. > > I don't remember reading any journal that suggests that ( but I love to > >see tipis scattered around a camp). I have read many accounts of trappers > >wintering with friendly Indians and sleeping in tipis, but many others > >built crude huts and semi-enclosed lean-to's. > >---------- > > > > That sounds like a worthy challenge. Here are a few references I found > that suggest trappers using their own lodges (not just visiting Indians). > > > > Journal of Peter Skene Ogden; Snake Expedition, 1828-1829 > "Thursday 25th. ... We remained to make our tent poles(3) beyond this is no > wood fit for the purpose. ... > ......... Tuesday 30th Sept. Sent off 6 men with lodges to Burnt River from > thence to go up River Malheur where we shall meet. ......" > Editor T. C. Elliot makes the following note to the Thursday 25th entry: > "These lodgepoles were destined to be dragged a long way and their marks > across the Plains and mountains served to mark the track of future wagon > and stage and railroads." > > > JOURNAL OF ALEXANDER ROSS - SNAKE COUNTRY EXPEDITION, 1824 > Tuesday, 10th of February. Our party was as follows: > Thyery Goddin 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Joseph Vail 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Louis Paul 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses 1 lodge > Francois Faniaint 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Antoine Sylvaille 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Laurent Quintal 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Joseph Annance 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Jean Bapt Gadaira 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Pierre Depot 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Francois Rivet, interp 2 guns 6 traps 15 horses 1 lodge > Alexander Ross 1 gun 6 traps 16 horses 1 lodge > > > Invoice of Sundry Merchandise furnished Rocky Mountain Outfit 1837 under > charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick & Co. > 6 Indian Skin Lodges for Baling > 1 Lodge for Packing for the Rocky Mountains > > > Victor, Francis Fuller. River of the West (as told by Joe Meek) chap 9 > "Having rested and refreshed themselves at the stream, they kept on without > much delay until they reached camp in that beautiful valley of the Rocky > Mountains called the New, or the South Park. While they remained in the > South Park, Mr. Guthrie, one of the Rocky Mountain Company's traders, was > killed by lightning. A number of persons were collected in the lodge of the > Booshway, Frapp, to avoid the rising tempest, when Guthrie, who was leaning > against the lodge pole, was struck by a flash of the electric current, and > fell dead instantly. Frapp rushed out of the lodge, partly bewildered > himself by the shock, and under the impression that Guthrie had been shot. > Frapp was a German, and spoke English somewhat imperfectly. In the > excitement of the moment he shouted out, " Py Gott, who did shoot Guttery ! " > > > Accounts of Columbia River Fishing and Trading Company at Ft Hall > On 18-Nov-1835, Osborne Russell purchased 1/4 of a lodge for $10.875 > (chipped in with 3 companions). They spent that winter at "Mutton Hill", > away from the fort. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com > Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:00:55 -0800 From: Kat Hargus <Kat@janrix.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: photos of original artifacts I am a historical costumer. We're re-working our web-site with plans to include vintage and antique photographs. The inclusion of the pictures of museum pieces would be a wonderful addition to the site. I'll host the guns as well, but they could have a better home on a 'history of firearms' page. Kat Hargus owner, Making Time www.makingtime.com Addison O. Miller wrote: > > I too would be willing to host a WWW site for the storage and exhibiting of > pix of old weapons and items, documents, etc... > > Addison Miller > > >> > >> Michael Pierce wrote: > >> > IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE > >> > ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND > >> > OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION. EVEN TO INCLUDE THE > >> > PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN. > >> > > > >And Dale Nelson wrote: > >> Dean, > >> Is this possible? I have a couple of originals that I could send jpegs > >> of, but where would I send them etc. > > > > > >This sounds like a good idea. It usually doesn't work very well sending > >binary attachments to an e-mail list; better to put them on a web page and > >just post the address. Or e-mail them directly to me and I'll put them on > >a web server. It would be great to have an on-line "museum" of photos > >(and accompanying text) about original fur trade artifacts. I'd be glad > >to host (or link to) such a database as part of the "Mountain Men and the > >Fur Trade" web site... > > > >Dean Rudy > > > > ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #24 ****************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.