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hist_text-digest      Tuesday, February 17 1998      Volume 01 : Number 023




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:12:08 -0800
From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation

Michael Pierce wrote:
>  IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE
> ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC  PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
> OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION.  EVEN TO INCLUDE THE
> PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN.

Dean,
Is this possible?  I have a couple of originals that I could send jpegs
of, but where would I send them etc.
            Dale Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:05:46 -0800 (PST)
From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Living Documentation

David,

Sounds a lot like what I want to do this summer (if I can get the time off
my new job.)  I want to go on a 5 - 7 day horse trip with only the bare
essentials.  Not sure where I will go or with whom.  If a pack animal is to
be used, will depend on how many are on the trip.  If I go light, I can get
away with carrying everything in my saddle bags and bed roll (which is how I
would perfer to go.)

I have made shelters like what you are speaking of on primative backpacking
trips and its not that big a deal to do.  Just need to take the time to do
it right (and be in an area where there are materials that can be used to
build a shelter.)  I would never carry a tent (documented or not) on a horse
trip because it is too heavy.  Besides, a comfortable and adequate shelter
could usually be made from a combination of either canvas tarps, blankets
and/or natural materials.

The only thing I would say is, it doesn't have to be a competition; I'd do
it because I wanted to.  I really only compete against myself anymore.

As far as documenting any of this stuff, I really agree with Pat.  Common
sense will tell you if it is historically correct of not.  Just because it
is documented to have existed, doesn't mean they had it in the mountains at
this time.  There are lots of things which have been documented to have
existed in "civilization," and might have been seen once or twice in the
mountains, but that is the exception and not the rule.  Just try and imagine
if you could live for 150 more years and you saw someone trying to re-enact
the 1990s dressed in all designer clothes from Paris. Wouldn't you think it
was funny if they tried to represent their clothes as everyday dress that
was commonly warn?

Anyway, you may be part of the group that does not even care.  Many don't
and just want to have a good time, historically correct or not.  I don't
want to get started on this topic.  As you can see I can go on and on.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488


At 08:55 AM 2/16/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Jerry,
>
>I'm actually feeling pretty radical on this topic of late, and am in the
>mood to suggest a new way to document fur-trade period shelter types.
>
>This is what I suggest.  Assemble 12 teams of 4 mountain people each (squaws
>welcome).  Each team will be assigned 4 head of riding plus 4 head of
>packstock.  The packstock will be loaded with everything needed for a years
>trapping in the mountains, as in leaving rendezvous.  Goods will be packed
>in traditional mant'ied- fashion with sheeting, blanketing, pack covers, or
>other period correct packing fabric.
>
>The contest starts at daylight with the contestents riding through
>mountainous country without modern-maintained trails.  They proceed through
>the day to where ever they happen to be at sunset, and are then givent he
>senario that an early September snowstorm is blowing in.  While one member
>of each team gets a fire going, the other three have to unpack the stock and
>using only the pack covers and manties to build a shelter to house the group
>of four through the snowstorm.
>
>During the night, Coyote is allowed to throw buckets of water at the team
>from a distance of 10 feet.
>
>The next morning, judges inspect the teams and their shelters.  Any shelter
>that kept their team warm and dry through the night is there upon considered
>a documented fur-trade era shelter -- licensed for immitation by others.
>
>Wonder if I could sell the idea as an event for this year's Western
>Nationals?  The biggest problem is most of us usually travel and camp as
>though we were just the victims of a successful Blackfoot horse raid.  We
>might have to first walk over the mountain to Fort Hall to first trade for,
>or steal, enough horses to enable us to have the contest.
>
>Dave


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:10:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: photos of original artifacts

>
> Michael Pierce wrote:
> >  IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE
> > ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC  PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
> > OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION.  EVEN TO INCLUDE THE
> > PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN.
>

And Dale Nelson wrote:
> Dean,
> Is this possible?  I have a couple of originals that I could send jpegs
> of, but where would I send them etc.


This sounds like a good idea.  It usually doesn't work very well sending
binary attachments to an e-mail list; better to put them on a web page and
just post the address.  Or e-mail them directly to me and I'll put them on
a web server.  It would be great to have an on-line "museum" of photos
(and accompanying text) about original fur trade artifacts.  I'd be glad
to host (or link to) such a database as part of the "Mountain Men and the
Fur Trade" web site...

Dean Rudy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:55:53 -0800
From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3B1D.454852E0
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Well said Pat,  I have seen everything myself over 20 years of going to
shoots , primitives events and re-enactment's the worst one is the Baker
and Whelen lean-tos.  I've seen  some bakers set up that looked like a side
show for traders.  But I don't go to those kind of doin's anymore.  This
past summer at Fort Nisqually This guy and his wife came in and set up a
wall tent show that took the cake.  He had a camp trailer gas stove in his
tent along with double bed.  He had so much canvas that I was looking for
the elephants to show up.  To rub salt in the wound guess who was in the
Tacoma news paper on the front page in color.  He was asked not to come
back next year.  He also had more furniture in his tent then I do in my
house.  I didn't stick around and watch May Flower come in move him home we
were broken down and gone before he started to pack.    Later Jon Towns
- ----------
: From: [e-mail]
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation.
: Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 4:59 PM
:
: After all these years I still don't get why people still scratch for any
small
: piece of information to document (Justify) a pyramid tent.  The way I see
it,
: you either play this game historically correct, or you don't.  If you do,
then
: you choose a tent is eminently documentable--something like a wedge.  If
you
: don't want to be so accurate, you choose a pyramid.  I mean, why choose a
: pyramid in the first place.  They are about the same cost as a wedge.
They
: are less poles.  Two less.  Big deal.  They set up faster.  My wedge
tent is
: up in 7 to 10 minutes.  What is this, a race?  And what difference does a
few
: minutes set-up make?
:
: So I ask you, "Do you want to be historically correct?", or "Do you want
to
: set-up in record time so the time you have left over you can spend
justifying
: and looking for that one grain of support that someone, somewhere,
onetime,
: used a pyramid?" Whew, glad I got that off my chest, it's been crushing
me.
: Guess you know the way my stick floats.
: Pat Surrena #1449
:
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Well said Pat,  I have seen =
everything myself over 20 years of going to shoots , primitives events =
and re-enactment's the worst one is the Baker and Whelen lean-tos. =
 I've seen  some bakers set up that looked like a side show =
for traders.  But I don't go to those kind of doin's anymore. =
 This past summer at Fort Nisqually This guy and his wife came in =
and set up a wall tent show that took the cake.  He had a camp =
trailer gas stove in his tent along with double bed.  He had so =
much canvas that I was looking for the elephants to show up.  To =
rub salt in the wound guess who was in the Tacoma news paper on the =
front page in color.  He was asked not to come back next year. =
 He also had more furniture in his tent then I do in my house. =
 I didn't stick around and watch May Flower come in move him home =
we were broken down and gone before he started to pack. =
   Later Jon Towns<br>----------<br>: From: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000"><br>: =
To: <font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent =
documentation.<br>: Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 4:59 PM<br>: <br>: =
After all these years I still don't get why people still scratch for any =
small<br>: piece of information to document (Justify) a pyramid tent. =
 The way I see it,<br>: you either play this game historically =
correct, or you don't.  If you do, then<br>: you choose a tent is =
eminently documentable--something like a wedge.  If you<br>: don't =
want to be so accurate, you choose a pyramid.  I mean, why choose =
a<br>: pyramid in the first place.  They are about the same cost as =
a wedge.  They<br>: are less poles.  Two less.  Big deal. =
 They set up faster.  My wedge  tent is<br>: up in 7 to =
10 minutes.  What is this, a race?  And what difference does a =
few<br>: minutes set-up make?  <br>: <br>: So I ask you, "Do =
you want to be historically correct?", or "Do you want to<br>: =
set-up in record time so the time you have left over you can spend =
justifying<br>: and looking for that one grain of support that someone, =
somewhere, onetime,<br>: used a pyramid?" Whew, glad I got that off =
my chest, it's been crushing me.<br>: Guess you know the way my stick =
floats.  <br>: Pat Surrena #1449<br>: </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3B1D.454852E0--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:24:10 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beating dead horses and pyramid tents

Hawk,

Your analogy comparing rules of evidence to document the period correctness
of rifles, compared to rules of evidence for  pyramid tents, illustrates why
revisiting pyramid tent documentation may not be just beating on a dead
horse.  If the example exposes multiple standards of documentation for
different kinds of gear, then the value of periodically beating on the horse
is that it reminds us to move out of our glass houses if we chose to throw
stones.

There seems to be two dominant schools of philosopy --  those dedicated to
trying not to dwell long in glass houses once they find themselves inside,
and those dedicated to explaining why they live where they do.

Sounds like fun, going to a mid-1840's event at Bent's Fort; sleeping in a
pyramid tent, carrying a pair of Walker Colts, riding a Santa Fe
platter-horn saddle, showing off a new Hawken rifle, and listening to Kit
Carson tell tales about paddling out to an island in the Great Salt Lake in
an inflatable rubber boat with John C. Fremont.  Then, if we get hungry, we
can ride over to Pueblo and trade some Bent's Fort water melons for some
bean and cabrito burritoes.  After lunch we could rest under the shade of a
cottonwood tree and watch the Missouri volunteer calvary parade by on their
way south to spank the Mexican army.  Then, as black thunder clouds loom in
the west, we could beat our horses to get back to Bent's Fort and the
shelter of our pyramid tents before the rain starts to fall.

So many decades to live in, and so little time!  To live in the decade with
the pyramid tent, or to live in a decade before the pyramid tent -- that is
the question.

My apologies to Brother Chas who occasionally offers me the shelter of his
pyramid tent.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 6:49 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation


>I DO BELIEVE IN AUTHENTISITY, AND HISTORICAL RECREATION  BUT AFTER
>READING ALL THE RESPONSES TO THE TIPI / PYRAMID TENT ISSUE CAN ONLY STATE
>WHAT A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE AND DEDICATED BUCKSKINNER ONCE SAID.
>
>QUOTE "DALE BLACK"
>IF IT WORKED AND WAS AVAILABLE IN THE  MOUNTAINMEN TIME HE WOULD HAVE
>USED IT AND ALWAYS KEEP IT IN THAT SPIRIT AND YOU WILL ALWAYS BE IN
>ACCORDANCE WITH THE TIME YOU ARE TRYING TO DEPICT.
>
>THERE MUST HAVE BEEN 20 MSGS IN REFERENCE TO THIS TENT ISSUE.  IN EFFECT
>IF YOU DONT FEEL THAT WHAT YOU HAVE IS PERIOD THEN DONT USE IT. IF
>SOMEONE SAYS IT IS NOT PERIOD THEN LOOK AT IT YOURSELF WITH AN OPEN MIND
>AND IF YOUR DWELLING ISNT PROPER AND THEN ANALIZE WHAT YOU ARE TRULY
>TRYING TO DO OR ACCOMPLISH.  COMMON SENSE IS A KEY FACTOR IN YOUR
>PORTRAYAL OF THE TIME FRAME YOU ARE TRYING TO RECREATE.
>
>I'M SORREY BUT I HAVE READ A LOT OF GOOD COMMENTS AND A LOT OF HISTORICAL
>BACKGROUND AND DONT BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION OF
>THIS SUBJECT.
>
>WHY NOT MAKE A LIST OF HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION OR A DATABASE OF
>GUNMAKERS THAT LIVED IN THIS TIME PERIOD A COMPLETE DATABASE WOULD BE
>VERY HELPFUL TO THOSE OF US WHO HAVE TO RESTORE GUNS WITH LITTLE OR NO
>KNOWLEDGE ABOUT A MAKERS THINKING OR MANNER OF CONSTRUCTION THAN TRYING
>TO SECOND GUESS HIM.  IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE
>ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC  PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
>OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION.  EVEN TO INCLUDE THE
>PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN.
>
>PLEASE LIST FORGIVE ME FOR THIS FOLLY BUT IT SEEMS TO BE BEAT TO DEATH BY
>NOW.
>
>     "Hawk"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>1-[phone]
>
>On Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:21:37 PST "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]> writes:
>>I did not "defend the authenticity" of the prymid tent per se.  I
>>provided
>>a first person account of its use in the spring of 1846 by tourist
>>Francis
>>Parkman during his vacation to the mountains and said that was good
>>enough
>>for me.  You are right, the design is so basic that it may have been
>>used
>>by cavemen.  I do own two prymids and a wall tent, but I camp most
>>often
>>under a square sheet of canvas.
>>Lanney Ratcliff
>>
>>----------
>>>
>>> Dear Zaz, et al,
>>>
>>> I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent,
>>basically
>>> because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been
>>at
>>> least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if
>>it
>>> wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western
>>emigration
>>> period.
>>>
>>> Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much
>>misinformation(pages
>>> 11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of
>>> documentation.
>>>
>>> The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation
>>is that
>>> it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the
>>background.
>>> As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of
>>any of
>>> the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as,
>>the
>>> British bell tent or the Sibley tent.  Certainly the Scottish Lord
>>paying
>>> Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was
>>the
>>> common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was
>>previously
>>> engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer.
>>>
>>> So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the
>>Miller
>>> painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be
>>relatively
>>> confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his
>>life
>>> weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent.  It's not too big
>>a jump
>>> to reason that  Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what
>>had
>>> worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo.
>>>
>>> There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported
>>British
>>> bell tents, and that at least some of  the bell tents used by David
>>Thompson
>>> found their way to the Rocky Mountains.
>>>
>>> You may have noticed that most of the people defending the
>>authenticity of
>>> the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
>>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>> Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM
>>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi
>>>
>>>
>>> >There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that
>>I am
>>> >aware of.  The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur
>>Trade"
>>by
>>> >Samuel L. Darby on page 8.  Although this not a 1st hand source, he
>>> mentions
>>> >other sources which are.  The other I am readily aware of is a
>>painting
>>by
>>> >Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp."  It is plate 37 in the
>>book,
>>> "Alfred
>>> >Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail."  In the background is a
>>tent
>>> that
>>> >looks like it might be a Pyramid.
>>> >
>>> >Best Regards,
>>> >
>>> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>>> >
>>> >At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do
>>not
>>know
>>> >>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not
>>thinkthey are
>>&
>>> >>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family
>>has
>>been
>>> >>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no
>>one has
>>> >>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge.
>>> >>
>>> >>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site &
>>if i
>>> >>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different
>>types
>>of
>>> >>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now
>>just my
>>> wife
>>> >>& i.
>>> >>
>>> >>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain &
>>ask
>>> >>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might
>>offer ya
>>a
>>> >>cold 1.
>>> >>
>>> >>                          shootshimself
>
>
>%%%%%%%%%%%END OF MSg%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 05:43:57 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HIGH PLAINS

If you shoot muzzleloaders or are interested in history, Texas
or otherwise, the 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous may be what you're
looking for.  This years location is the first in the Houston, Austin,
San Antonio, Corpus Christi area since 1990.

Rendezvous is a collection of people from all parts of the country who
are interested in recreating our history.  We limit the timeframe from
the French and Indian War (roughly 1750) to the end of the Rocky Mt.
fur trade in 1840. =20

Tools, clothing, shelters, decorations and firearms that did not exist
in the Rocky Mountains prior to 1840 are not permitted at any time.
Muzzle-loading shoots, tomahawk, knife, and primitive archery
contests, old-time craft demonstrations such as brain-tanning,
blacksmithing, quillwork, gunstocking, bow-making, arrow-making,
beading, mocassin making, leather work, flint knapping,  etc will be
held daily. =20

A large number of free traders will be present to supply articles
ranging from custom ironwork, firearms, damascas knives, cloth,
leather, tents, tipis, authentic jewelery, and whatever you might need
will be there.

The 1998 SWRR will be held near Shiner, Texas March 12 - 22.  For the
first time since 1990, the SWRR is south of spitting distance from the
Red River.  The SWRR is a collection of individuals who gather in one
of 5 states (NM, OK, TX, AK, LA) once a year to recreate a fur-trade
era encampment.  Sites are selected two years in advance by the
participants.  The 1999 SWRR will be held in northern Oklahoma.  The
site of the 2000 SWRR will be determined by the participants during
this rendezvous.

The rendezvous is open to the public on March 14, 15 and 21 from 10am
to 5pm for a $2 admission charge for those over 12 and under 60.
Proper period dress, accoutrements and membership are required to
enter the camp at any other time.

=46or further information and a map, trader's guidelines, and the basics
for rendezvous beginners,  check out our web page at
http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus/swrr.htm

If you have questions, drop the booshway (me) an email, and I'll
respond as quickly as possible. =20

Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, [e-mail]
=46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:12:26 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation

Panther has a large 10x11x8 bell wedge that is great.  I just ordered one to
use for the shorter weenend events when it is not practicable to take the
big tent and all of the poles and accoutraments with us.  This is 3 poles
and 16 stakes....  I think the total cost was about $425 with sod cloth and
floor.

YS,

Addison Miller

>Thanks Henry, that's good enough for me, I'm off to price a wedge tent!
>
>Watch yor backtrail, MB
>
>Henry B. Crawford wrote:
>
>> Sure.  A wedge tent is definitely appropriate for the rendezvous period and
>> well documented by darn near everyone.
>>
>> Most tent dealers sell the venerable wedge.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> HBC
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:25:17 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: photos of original artifacts

I too would be willing to host a WWW site for the storage and exhibiting of
pix of old weapons and items, documents, etc...

Addison Miller

>>
>> Michael Pierce wrote:
>> >  IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE
>> > ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC  PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
>> > OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION.  EVEN TO INCLUDE THE
>> > PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN.
>>
>
>And Dale Nelson wrote:
>> Dean,
>> Is this possible?  I have a couple of originals that I could send jpegs
>> of, but where would I send them etc.
>
>
>This sounds like a good idea.  It usually doesn't work very well sending
>binary attachments to an e-mail list; better to put them on a web page and
>just post the address.  Or e-mail them directly to me and I'll put them on
>a web server.  It would be great to have an on-line "museum" of photos
>(and accompanying text) about original fur trade artifacts.  I'd be glad
>to host (or link to) such a database as part of the "Mountain Men and the
>Fur Trade" web site...
>
>Dean Rudy
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:17:49 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: photos of original artifacts

DEAN
 I WOULD BE GLAD TO ESTABLISH AND MAINTAIN A DATABASE OF ORIGINAL
WEAPONS, HORNS AND SHOOTING BAGS AND OTHER PHOTOES OF THE FUR TRADE
ARTIFACTS.  I WILL WORK ON ESTABLISHING A DATABASE WHERE PEOPLE COULD
SEND THEIR ELECTRONIC DATA TO BE CATALOGED.  GIVE ME A CALL AND WE WILL
DISCUSS IT .  I HAVE COPIES OF A LOT OF MY ORIGINALS ALREADY.

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 05:41:39 +0000
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: list topics

I'm sure Kentucky talk would be welcome on [e-mail]. It is run
by Bob Spencer from KY.  Also check out
http://www.aye.net/~bspen/index.html.

RED




> Date:          Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:30:51 -0700
> To:            [e-mail]
> From:          Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
> Subject:       MtMan-List: list topics
> Reply-to:      [e-mail]

> At 01:23 PM 2/16/98 -0800, [e-mail] wrote:
> ......
> Would a discussion on the equipment & weaponry of Kentucky frontiersmen
> of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries be a permissable
> topic for the List?  Though, strictly speaking, outside the geographical
> and chronological limitations of the List, because the culture of the
> western mountain man evolved, in many respects, from the culture of the
> Kentucky frontiersman, would a discussion of the latter be out of place?
>
> and
>
> >I have a fair amount of information about several Kentucky
> >backwoodsmen/soldiers, who were part of one family, but am holding off
> >posting it until the Rule-maker, if there is one, says yea or nay.
> >
> ...
>
> Well, this here e-mail list administrator has been out of town for a few
> days, so I'm just now getting around to responding.  Just back from a
> winter snowshoe-in camp, up in the Bear River Range of SE Idaho.  When the
> camp fire finally melted all the way to the ground, we saw that the snow
> was about six feet deep.  Shinin times!
>
> Anyway, as far as appropriate topics for this list, our main focus is the
> history of the mountain men in the Rocky Mountains during the early 19th
> century, and in equipment and living history skills related to that period
> and place.  Topics directly related to that, like the late 18th century
> frontiersmen are a little off-center, but are close enough to be welcome.
> By the way, I don't know of any other e-mail lists specializing in the 18th
> century eastern frontiersmen, but perhaps there is one - I bet there's
> enough interest.
>
> While we're at it , lets talk about some other topics we tend to get on may
> be more appropriate to other e-mail lists.  Although many of us use
> muzzleloading fire arms, technical discussions about gunsmithing,  optimum
> loads, rules for competition, etc, can get quite involved, and there are
> one or two other excellent e-mail lists devoted to that.  I'd suggest we
> focus our muzzleloader discussions on this list on their historical
> aspects, and appropriate use in living history activities.  Another topic
> that can get very heated and _way_ off-topic are discussions about gun
> control and anti-hunting laws.  There are other, very active mailing lists
> covering these, so lets not get too deep into that here, even though a lot
> of us are concerned about these issues.
>
> If anybody has any comments or suggestions on the operation of this e-mail
> list, please e-mail me on the side - [e-mail] . - although I
> apologize in advance that I won't be able to respond to all messages.
>
> YMHOS
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
> Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:35:48 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Bent's Fort

>
>Sounds like fun, going to a mid-1840's event at Bent's Fort; sleeping in a
>pyramid tent, carrying a pair of Walker Colts, riding a Santa Fe
>platter-horn saddle, showing off a new Hawken rifle, and listening to Kit
>Carson tell tales about paddling out to an island in the Great Salt Lake in
>an inflatable rubber boat with John C. Fremont.  Then, if we get hungry, we
>can ride over to Pueblo and trade some Bent's Fort water melons for some
>bean and cabrito burritoes.  After lunch we could rest under the shade of a
>cottonwood tree and watch the Missouri volunteer calvary parade by on their
>way south to spank the Mexican army.  Then, as black thunder clouds loom in
>the west, we could beat our horses to get back to Bent's Fort and the
>shelter of our pyramid tents before the rain starts to fall.
>

That's exactly what I'm going to do come July.  I just got my info on
upcoming events that the Park Service is doing at Bent's, and one is the
Santa Fe Trail Encampment July 24-26.  Since I'm on their list of approved
volunteers (aka the "A" list), I get invitations to participate.  I think
I'll portray a cook's helper this time.  Looking forward to that one.   See
you on the Arkansas.

>So many decades to live in, and so little time!  To live in the decade with
>the pyramid tent, or to live in a decade before the pyramid tent -- that is
>the question.

I do both.  It's easier that way, and I won't be left out of events for
lack of the proper equipment.  I do it all from fur trade to buffalo
soldier (I'm on the Fort Davis list as well.)

Chers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
**************    "Make it so!"    ***************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:38:39 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK

Please don't apologize. As far as I'm concerned, this is certainly an
appropriate use of this list. Thank you for letting us know .  We are all
brothers in the eyes of Grandfather Above.  Marty's loss is a loss to us all.
Out thoughts are with Marty and his family and our prayers for Brian rise to
Grandfather Above.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:02:56 -0500
From: Peter Archdale <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Archdale information wanted

Hello all, =


I am a new suscriber to the list and am searching for information details=

of a possible ancestor of mine. I have the following information from the=

Miles City STAR;

"ARCHDALE DIES AT WOLF POINT

Wolf Point, June 18, 1935.  Henry Archdale, 73, outstanding leader
and counsellor to the Assinniboine Indians, known affectionately thru- ou=
t
the Fort Peck agency as "The Hopper," has gone to the Happy Hunting
Grounds.

One of the most picturesque and remarkable figures in northeastern
Montana, Archdale collapsed while conversing with his family and died
instantly. Final rites were, held yesterday in the Catholic church at
Oswego amid sorrowing; tribesmen and his many relatives

Archdale was born Jan. 2, 1863, within the stockade of Fort Union on
the Montana-Dakota line to an Indian mother and white father, Henry
Archdale, an Englishman, who came to Montana territory for the American F=
ur
company.  Though the son's education was restricted to a few months
tutoring in the first school ever held at the old trading post near the
present site of Wolf Point, he developed rapidly mentally and physically,=

and at an early age could read and speak the white man's language. =


At the age of 14 Archdale drove a freight wagon between Fort Union and
Miles City and during these years his experiences were many and
interesting. At one time he told of seeing a great herd of elk, perhaps
2.000, swimming the Missouri river near the mouth of the Musselshell, and=

on another occasion he drove his wagon thru a great buffalo herd.

At the age of 16 a rattlesnake sank its fangs into Archdale's leg and it
was amputated below the knee. With crutches and artificial limbs difficul=
t
to obtain, he got along for years without either and thus was known as
"The Hopper".
 For 20 years the man was an Indian interpreter for the government and
in February, 1917, he and a son, James, presented testimony to a senate
committee which eventually brought restitution to the Fort Peck Indians i=
n
the sum of $400,000.

On five occasions Archdale journeyed to Washington to represent
the Assinniboines in tribal matters before the Indian department or
congressional leaders.

He was married three times and to the several marriages fourteen children=

were born."

I have established that Henry's mother was called Kills Wood Woman, whom
he married >>by indian custom<< in 1859.  She was daughter of Got Wolf Ta=
il
and Walking Blue Mare.  I have also established that one of the younger
Henry marriages was to Nellie English, daughter of Colonel John English a=
nd
? Moose ?.  =


If anyone can help me with unravelling this story, I would be most
grateful.

Peter Archdale, Clevedon, England.

!^NavFont02F08A00007MGHHOA2FA7C

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:07:47 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: HBC today; lampwick

[e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford) wrote:
>The fur trade is still with us today.  Hudson's Bay Company, founded in
>1670 for the sole purpose of trading furs, is still a viable trading
>company, and remains the oldest corporation in North America today.

Bravo! I might add a few points to update you folks south of the 49th to
what the HBC is up to now. They no longer trade in furs (aside from fur
coats); instead, they operate a chain of department stores as "The Bay" (but
their formal name is still the "Company of Adventurers Trading into Hudson's
Bay", and their 1670 charter is a prized possession). The Bay bought the
Zellers discount department stores about 20 years ago; a few weeks ago, they
bought K-Mart Canada. I believe fur trading and general stores are still
carried on by the Northern Stores; this was the fur trading branch of the
Bay in northern Canada until the Bay spun it off into its own separate
division. The Northern Stores are now independent and operate under the name
"North West Company" (which they are historically entitled to!).

Three or four years ago, the Bay donated all their archival material and
collections to the Manitoba Museum of Man & Nature in Winnipeg, along with
the money to build a new wing to store & display it all. The Manitoba Museum
also holds the full-size reproduction of the Nonsuch, the ship that carried
on the HBC's first successful trading voyage to Hudson's Bay in 1668-1669.
The reproduction was built in 1970 for the 300th anniversary of the HBC, and
reenacted the trans-Atlantic voyage.

Lampwick for snowshoes?

I've studied lots of inventories and lists of trade goods for the North West
Company and HBC dating to the 1774-1821 time period, and I haven't seen lamp
wick listed.  However, "gartering" is a common trade item that could well
have been used to lace on snowshoes in the way David Tippets described.
Gartering (also called ferreting) is a kind of coarse ribbon or tape meant
to be cut to length and used as garters. Canadian fur traders imported it in
very long pieces, easily 8 feet or more.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:04:29 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation.

David--
More about Susan Magoffin???  Read "Down the Santa Fe Trail and into Mexico"'
the diary of Ssuan Shelby Magoffin, 1846-47,  published by Univ. of Nebraska
Press, Bison Books, .  What was your great, great grandfathers name?  I'll see
if she mentions him is her diary!!  Happy reading.
pat surrena #1449

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:04:23 -0800
From: bob killingsworth <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #21

Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> i would like info on idaho events this year or any others in montana or
> wyoming need something to look forward to only three more months of
> winter left here....
Hi Tom,

    Please contact me off list if you would be interested in our ronny at
the 1810-11 site of Maj. Andrew Henry's winter camp on Conant Creek near
present day St. Anthony, Id. We are the Ft. Henry Buckskinners.

Watch yer top knot,

Soaring Eagle(Bob Killingsworth)
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:49:59 -0800
From: [e-mail] (David A. Miller)
Subject: MtMan-List: Western Mountain Man Clothing circa 1816-1825

Ho the Camp!!!!

I have a question that stays on my mind, even after countless times
reviewing the threads of the past discussions.  So for one last time, I
want to touch this question as to:  What "Pants and Shirts" would one
find on a person working the fur trade in the rocky mountains during the
years stated in the subject line?

I know that some would leave the settlements with their cloth shirts and
shoes, but after being in the mountains (not counting rendezvous times)
what would you see if you were to cross an individual in the every day
work habits?

Was he all in leather.  I mean, it has been well extablished that if he
were to have leather, it would more than likely be of the brain tanned
variety.......Did he where it as well?  If so, how much of the wardrobe
was entirely of leather?  If not, then what was he using? and how did he
come by it?  Was there other types of tanned leather in the "Rocky
Mountains"?  I know what can be found in the east, But I live here in the
Rockies, and want what was HERE.

I am looking for the documentation for this subject, as I am planning to
develop a persona of this era (after reading your many messages of
persona developing on this service).

Thanks, in advance, and I hope that I didn't drive to many of you old
timers to drink with this "never ending" questioning.

Dave

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------------------------------

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