ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n022

Internet Message Format | 1998-02-16 | 43KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #22
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest       Monday, February 16 1998       Volume 01 : Number 022




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:08:16 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: digest

subscribe hist_text-digest [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:23:24 -0800
From: Omanson & Hollinger <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersman > mountain man

Firstly, thanks to Dale Nelson & Medicine Bear for helpful tips, which I
will follow up on.

I have a fair amount of information about several Kentucky
backwoodsmen/soldiers, who were part of one family, but am holding off
posting it until the Rule-maker, if there is one, says yea or nay.

In the meantime, in order to establish more fully the relation between
the culture of the eighteenth-century trans-Allegheny frontier and that
of the Western frontier which followed, here are a couple of paragraphs
from C.P. Russell's FIREARMS, TRAPS, & TOOLS OF
THE MOUNTAIN MEN:

  "When Lewis and Clark recruited their party of explorers in 1803-4,
they selected and "signed up" nine young backwoodsmen from Kentucky and
obtained the transfer of fourteen hardbitten soldiers from the Regular
Army. Two French boatmen and the half-breed interpreter George Drouillard
completed the permanent party. All these men had experience in wilderness
life and Indian contacts. Like the two leaders, most of them were well
schooled in the circumstances and causes of recurrent Indian wars, as
they had occurred in Kentucky and the Old Northwest. A number of them
were seasoned hunters thoroughly skilled in trapping beaver; inherently
or intuitively they were already "mountain men," although the term had
not yet been coined."  (p3)

  "From the beginning of their march, Lewis and Clark and their followers
practiced the techniques of travel, trade, craftsmanship, and sustenance
that later characterized the field activities of the Western beaver
hunters. These were not new procedures; they were identical to those
which most of the men had used all during their youth in Kentucky and
north of the Ohio. Upon the return of the expedition, American trappers
and fur traders in numbers occupied the Missouri, many of them going at
once to the more promising beaver waters reportd by the explorers. They
accomplished their occupation of the new country by employing much the
same methods that their progenitors had adopted in taking the
trans-Allegheny region and the Mississippi Valley. Their purposes, their
procedure in Indian intercourse~ even their dress and personal equipment~
were essentially the same. Our concept of the American fur trade is
marked by this continuity of the trade as an institution." (p4)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:32:35 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Tom Sherman)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #21

i would like info on idaho events this year or any others in montana or
wyoming need something to look forward to only three more months of
winter left here....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:01:38 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi

In a message dated 98-02-14 07:51:01 EST, John Sparks wrote that his:

<<  Wall tent is from
 Panther, the wedge is from Spring Valley, both are very reliable companys. >>

Another source for info on tents and tents is: TENTSMITHS Deb and Peter
Marques (pronounced 'Marks") have a web site with a lot of pictures and
history of tents at www.tentsmiths.com.   Their quality is excellent and they
are real nice folks.  And I give this praise well at the same time telling you
that I too own a Panther wall tent (bought it before we got to know Peter and
Deb) and I like my Panter a lot.

From what I have seen every maker does some tents better then others but if
you go with Spring Valley, Tentsmiths or Panter you will get your moneys
worth.

Your humble servant

C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:55:03 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation

Jerry,

I'm actually feeling pretty radical on this topic of late, and am in the
mood to suggest a new way to document fur-trade period shelter types.

This is what I suggest.  Assemble 12 teams of 4 mountain people each (squaws
welcome).  Each team will be assigned 4 head of riding plus 4 head of
packstock.  The packstock will be loaded with everything needed for a years
trapping in the mountains, as in leaving rendezvous.  Goods will be packed
in traditional mant'ied- fashion with sheeting, blanketing, pack covers, or
other period correct packing fabric.

The contest starts at daylight with the contestents riding through
mountainous country without modern-maintained trails.  They proceed through
the day to where ever they happen to be at sunset, and are then givent he
senario that an early September snowstorm is blowing in.  While one member
of each team gets a fire going, the other three have to unpack the stock and
using only the pack covers and manties to build a shelter to house the group
of four through the snowstorm.

During the night, Coyote is allowed to throw buckets of water at the team
from a distance of 10 feet.

The next morning, judges inspect the teams and their shelters.  Any shelter
that kept their team warm and dry through the night is there upon considered
a documented fur-trade era shelter -- licensed for immitation by others.

Wonder if I could sell the idea as an event for this year's Western
Nationals?  The biggest problem is most of us usually travel and camp as
though we were just the victims of a successful Blackfoot horse raid.  We
might have to first walk over the mountain to Fort Hall to first trade for,
or steal, enough horses to enable us to have the contest.

Dave


- -----Original Message-----
From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation


>David,
>
>I completely agree with you.  Just wanted to provide a starting point for
>those that wanted to know about the Pyramid tent and do some research on
it.
>Also, I have also heard it argued that the tent in the Miller painting is
>actually a Tipi and Miller just didn't paint the poles for it (although I
>find that a bit hard to believe.)  There is such a thing as artistic
>licence, though.  Another thing about Darby's Sketchbook, he says he has
>references for the Pyramid dating it to the 1820s, but I would like to see
>them before taking it as gospel.  As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand
>reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is
>historically correct.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
>At 04:14 PM 2/14/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Dear Zaz, et al,
>>
>>I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically
>>because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at
>>least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it
>>wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western emigration
>>period.
>>
>>Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages
>>11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of
>>documentation.
>>
>>The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is that
>>it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the background.
>>As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any of
>>the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the
>>British bell tent or the Sibley tent.  Certainly the Scottish Lord paying
>>Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the
>>common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously
>>engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer.
>>
>>So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller
>>painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be
relatively
>>confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life
>>weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent.  It's not too big a jump
>>to reason that  Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had
>>worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo.
>>
>>There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British
>>bell tents, and that at least some of  the bell tents used by David
Thompson
>>found their way to the Rocky Mountains.
>>
>>You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity of
>>the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent.
>>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:45:40 -0800
From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3AB7.42A6DD60
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The Pyramid tent would be fine if you are a buckskinner and your persona is
in the time frame.  I have seen some good size pyramid tents.  But the
wedge tent would work real well and is roomy for two or a wall tent is good
and depending on the size are quite simple to put up.  My first wife had a
22' Tipi crow set and what a pain in the donkey 35 '  poles I had a chev
van and I needed a trailer to make me legal in WA I could only be 14 ' from
the last axle that is why the trailer.  I have a friend who has a 14' Tipi
and does quite well the poles are shorter and the bundle you can carry in
one trip.  Look up Panther Primitive tents in excite search and it was the
first one on the list no title they have good prices I am getting a wall
tent this summer for new my bride.  I have a 7 ' wedge now but want
something bigger I like the wedge because three seven foot poles are nice.
The wall tent will have 3 poles one 10' and two 7' I can still get them in
the back of my truck.  Until later Jon T

- ----------
: From: Frank Stewart <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation
: Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 7:58 PM
:
:
:
: zaslow wrote:
:
: > Another thing about Darby's Sketchbook, he says he has
: > references for the Pyramid dating it to the 1820s, but I would like to
see
: > them before taking it as gospel.  As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand
: > reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is
: > historically correct.
:
: Okay, if the pyramid is pushing to envelope of "period correct" can
anyone
: recomend a tent that is period correct and where it might be obtained?
:
: Thanks, MB
:
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3AB7.42A6DD60
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">The Pyramid tent would be fine if you =
are a buckskinner and your persona is in the time frame.  I have =
seen some good size pyramid tents.  But the wedge tent would work =
real well and is roomy for two or a wall tent is good and depending on =
the size are quite simple to put up.  My first wife had a 22' Tipi =
crow set and what a pain in the donkey 35 '  poles I had a chev van =
and I needed a trailer to make me legal in WA I could only be 14 ' from =
the last axle that is why the trailer.  I have a friend who has a =
14' Tipi and does quite well the poles are shorter and the bundle you =
can carry in one trip.  Look up Panther Primitive tents in excite =
search and it was the first one on the list no title they have good =
prices I am getting a wall tent this summer for new my bride.  I =
have a 7 ' wedge now but want something bigger I like the wedge because =
three seven foot poles are nice.  The wall tent will have 3 poles =
one 10' and two 7' I can still get them in the back of my truck. =
 Until later Jon T    <br><br>----------<br>: From: =
Frank Stewart <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent =
documentation<br>: Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 7:58 PM<br>: <br>: =
<br>: <br>: zaslow wrote:<br>: <br>: > Another thing about Darby's =
Sketchbook, he says he has<br>: > references for the Pyramid dating =
it to the 1820s, but I would like to see<br>: > them before taking it =
as gospel.  As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand<br>: > =
reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is<br>: =
> historically correct.<br>: <br>: Okay, if the pyramid is pushing to =
envelope of "period correct" can anyone<br>: recomend a tent =
that is period correct and where it might be obtained?<br>: <br>: =
Thanks, MB<br>: </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3AB7.42A6DD60--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:22:57 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK

Ho the List

Please indulge me if this is not appropriate use of the list I am truly sorry.

I live in the NYC-Metro area and blackpowder brothers are far and few between.
A local brother called me last night to say his son who was 16 years old
passed away from a latent heart defect.

Buckskin Marty Jaeckel has been shooting BP for over thirty years, and has
been a mainstay in local area re-enactments, show & tells and shoots. If you
could please see it in your hearts to spare a few prayers for his boy Brian,
all the brothers in the concrete canyon (as few as we are) would  be most
obliged.

Once again I am sorry if this is not an appropriate use of the list, and I am
most sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Thank you
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:05:08 +1100
From: Jonathan Sparks <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK

I don't think this is an inappropriate use of the list. No matter what form of
Diety we believe in,  prayer to God, or the Great Spirit are always received.  We
will pray for this family.

Jon and Sharon Sparks

[e-mail] wrote:

> Ho the List
>
> Please indulge me if this is not appropriate use of the list I am truly sorry.
>
> I live in the NYC-Metro area and blackpowder brothers are far and few between.
> A local brother called me last night to say his son who was 16 years old
> passed away from a latent heart defect.
>
> Buckskin Marty Jaeckel has been shooting BP for over thirty years, and has
> been a mainstay in local area re-enactments, show & tells and shoots. If you
> could please see it in your hearts to spare a few prayers for his boy Brian,
> all the brothers in the concrete canyon (as few as we are) would  be most
> obliged.
>
> Once again I am sorry if this is not an appropriate use of the list, and I am
> most sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
>
> Thank you
> [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:17:39 -0800
From: Frank Stewart <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation

Thanks Henry, that's good enough for me, I'm off to price a wedge tent!

Watch yor backtrail, MB

Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> Sure.  A wedge tent is definitely appropriate for the rendezvous period and
> well documented by darn near everyone.
>
> Most tent dealers sell the venerable wedge.
>
> Cheers,
> HBC

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:21:37 PST
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation

I did not "defend the authenticity" of the prymid tent per se.  I provided
a first person account of its use in the spring of 1846 by tourist Francis
Parkman during his vacation to the mountains and said that was good enough
for me.  You are right, the design is so basic that it may have been used
by cavemen.  I do own two prymids and a wall tent, but I camp most often
under a square sheet of canvas.
Lanney Ratcliff

- ----------
>
> Dear Zaz, et al,
>
> I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically
> because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at
> least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it
> wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western emigration
> period.
>
> Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages
> 11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of
> documentation.
>
> The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is that
> it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the background.
> As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any of
> the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the
> British bell tent or the Sibley tent.  Certainly the Scottish Lord paying
> Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the
> common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously
> engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer.
>
> So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller
> painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be
relatively
> confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life
> weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent.  It's not too big a jump
> to reason that  Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had
> worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo.
>
> There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British
> bell tents, and that at least some of  the bell tents used by David
Thompson
> found their way to the Rocky Mountains.
>
> You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity of
> the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi
>
>
> >There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that I am
> >aware of.  The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur Trade"
by
> >Samuel L. Darby on page 8.  Although this not a 1st hand source, he
> mentions
> >other sources which are.  The other I am readily aware of is a painting
by
> >Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp."  It is plate 37 in the book,
> "Alfred
> >Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail."  In the background is a tent
> that
> >looks like it might be a Pyramid.
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >
> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
> >
> >At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not
know
> >>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are
&
> >>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has
been
> >>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one has
> >>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge.
> >>
> >>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if i
> >>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types
of
> >>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my
> wife
> >>& i.
> >>
> >>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask
> >>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer ya
a
> >>cold 1.
> >>
> >>                          shootshimself
> >
> >
> >
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:24:05 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK

PLEASE FORWARD OR PLACE HIS MAILING ADDRESS ON THE LIST SO THAT WE CAN
SEND OR  PROVIDE  INDIVIDUAL WELL WISHES.  IN TIME THERE IS A PLACE AND A
NEED THAT IS ULTIMATELY FULFILLED.  OUR PRAYERS AND DREAMS ARE FORWARDED.
 MAY THE BIG MAKER LOOK OVER HIM AND LET HIS LODGE BE ALWAYS WARM AND HIS
PATH BE ENJOYED WITH GOOD HUNTING, FAIR WEATHERA FULL COOKING POT  AND
CRITTERS TO SKIN.  MAY HIS DAYS FOREVER BE FILLED WITH SUNSHINE AND GOOD
WINDS THAT ALWAYS BLOW.


      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:32:27 PST
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Co.

Amen on T. Lindsay Baker.  We went to junior high shool and high school
together (and were graduated together in the dim mists of
pre-history---1965--- from Cleburne, Texas High School.  Do not miss the
chance to catch his portrayal of a buffalo skinner.  He dresses as
authentically as possible, including a wig, and screeches a loud, lurid
song to gain the attention of the audience.  Believe me it works.  Always
been a nice fellow, and still is.
Lanney Ratcliff

- ----------
> >To the list:
> >
> >        I recently purcahsed a home in St. Charles, MI.  On the house is
> >a sign that states it is a local historical site.  It was surveyed in
> >March of 1853 and was sold to the American Fur Co. in 1859.  Is the
> >American Fur Co. a fur trade company or some other sort of business.  I
> >do realize "The Fur Trade Era" lasted to about 1840.
>
>
> Jim,
> Welcome to the hottest history discussion list this side of the Civil War.
> You'll learn more than you thought you would about this topic.
>
> One thing I would caution is do not confuse the Fur Trade era with the
> Rendezvous period.  The latter only lasted 16 years, while the former is
> still going on.  The era many people erroneously refer to when they say
the
> "Fur Trade" is the period between 1825 and 1840, when the fur trade
> companies designated a place in the mountains to meet trappers and
exchange
> supplies for furs gathered the previous winter.  Such events were called
> Rendezvous, a French word which refers to a meeting or gathering.  Modern
> fur trade living history gatherings are, thus, called Rendezvous, or
simply
> the Rondy, or colloquial variations thereof.
>
> What happened before 1825 and after1840?  Before the historic rondy, the
> fur companies operated out of trading posts, or "factories" where goods
and
> supplies were exchanged for furs.  The person in charge of the post was
> called a "chief factor."  The fur trade did not end in 1840.  The
> rendezvous system did.  After the last rondy in 1840, the fur companies
> went back to the old trading post system, where it had essentially begun.
> The fur trade is still with us today.  Hudson's Bay Company, founded in
> 1670 for the sole purpose of trading furs, is still a viable trading
> company, and remains the oldest corporation in North America today.
>
> On the Southern Plains, as well as on the upper Missouri, there really was
> no break in the continuity of the trading post system.  Bent's Fort on the
> Arkansas, as an example, was established at the height of the rondy period
> (1833) and thrived, primarily because the Bent St Vrain Co (BSV),
> proprieters traded for buffalo robes (as well as beaver, fox, otter and
> others.)  Although the Bent brothers and Ceran St. Vrain had been beaver
> trappers, they were not tied to the beaver trade for their primary
> livelihood, which is why they outlasted the rendezvous.  (What eventually
> became of Bents Fort and the buffalo robe trade on the Arkansas is another
> story.)
>
> After the beaver trade fell off, due to market anomalies and environmental
> damage, the buffalo robe trade (which btw is considered by historians as
> part of the fur trade story) continued to thrive through the middle 1880s.
> An indepth article on the buffalo robe fur trade is T. Lindsay Baker's two
> part article "Beaver to Buffalo Robes: Transition in the Fur Trade," which
> can be found in the _Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly_, Spring and Summer
> issues of 1987.  T. Lindsay is one of the recognized experts on the
buffalo
> robe trade, and a real nice guy.
>
> Welcome to a fascinating period in our history.
>
> Cheers,
> HBC
>
> *****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> **************    "Make it so!"    ***************
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:56:58 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation

I DO BELIEVE IN AUTHENTISITY, AND HISTORICAL RECREATION  BUT AFTER
READING ALL THE RESPONSES TO THE TIPI / PYRAMID TENT ISSUE CAN ONLY STATE
WHAT A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE AND DEDICATED BUCKSKINNER ONCE SAID.

QUOTE "DALE BLACK"
IF IT WORKED AND WAS AVAILABLE IN THE  MOUNTAINMEN TIME HE WOULD HAVE
USED IT AND ALWAYS KEEP IT IN THAT SPIRIT AND YOU WILL ALWAYS BE IN
ACCORDANCE WITH THE TIME YOU ARE TRYING TO DEPICT.

THERE MUST HAVE BEEN 20 MSGS IN REFERENCE TO THIS TENT ISSUE.  IN EFFECT
IF YOU DONT FEEL THAT WHAT YOU HAVE IS PERIOD THEN DONT USE IT. IF
SOMEONE SAYS IT IS NOT PERIOD THEN LOOK AT IT YOURSELF WITH AN OPEN MIND
AND IF YOUR DWELLING ISNT PROPER AND THEN ANALIZE WHAT YOU ARE TRULY
TRYING TO DO OR ACCOMPLISH.  COMMON SENSE IS A KEY FACTOR IN YOUR
PORTRAYAL OF THE TIME FRAME YOU ARE TRYING TO RECREATE.

I'M SORREY BUT I HAVE READ A LOT OF GOOD COMMENTS AND A LOT OF HISTORICAL
BACKGROUND AND DONT BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION OF
THIS SUBJECT.

WHY NOT MAKE A LIST OF HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION OR A DATABASE OF
GUNMAKERS THAT LIVED IN THIS TIME PERIOD A COMPLETE DATABASE WOULD BE
VERY HELPFUL TO THOSE OF US WHO HAVE TO RESTORE GUNS WITH LITTLE OR NO
KNOWLEDGE ABOUT A MAKERS THINKING OR MANNER OF CONSTRUCTION THAN TRYING
TO SECOND GUESS HIM.  IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE
ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC  PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION.  EVEN TO INCLUDE THE
PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN.

PLEASE LIST FORGIVE ME FOR THIS FOLLY BUT IT SEEMS TO BE BEAT TO DEATH BY
NOW.

     "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:21:37 PST "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]> writes:
>I did not "defend the authenticity" of the prymid tent per se.  I
>provided
>a first person account of its use in the spring of 1846 by tourist
>Francis
>Parkman during his vacation to the mountains and said that was good
>enough
>for me.  You are right, the design is so basic that it may have been
>used
>by cavemen.  I do own two prymids and a wall tent, but I camp most
>often
>under a square sheet of canvas.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>
>----------
>>
>> Dear Zaz, et al,
>>
>> I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent,
>basically
>> because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been
>at
>> least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if
>it
>> wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western
>emigration
>> period.
>>
>> Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much
>misinformation(pages
>> 11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of
>> documentation.
>>
>> The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation
>is that
>> it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the
>background.
>> As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of
>any of
>> the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as,
>the
>> British bell tent or the Sibley tent.  Certainly the Scottish Lord
>paying
>> Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was
>the
>> common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was
>previously
>> engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer.
>>
>> So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the
>Miller
>> painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be
>relatively
>> confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his
>life
>> weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent.  It's not too big
>a jump
>> to reason that  Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what
>had
>> worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo.
>>
>> There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported
>British
>> bell tents, and that at least some of  the bell tents used by David
>Thompson
>> found their way to the Rocky Mountains.
>>
>> You may have noticed that most of the people defending the
>authenticity of
>> the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi
>>
>>
>> >There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that
>I am
>> >aware of.  The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur
>Trade"
>by
>> >Samuel L. Darby on page 8.  Although this not a 1st hand source, he
>> mentions
>> >other sources which are.  The other I am readily aware of is a
>painting
>by
>> >Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp."  It is plate 37 in the
>book,
>> "Alfred
>> >Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail."  In the background is a
>tent
>> that
>> >looks like it might be a Pyramid.
>> >
>> >Best Regards,
>> >
>> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>> >
>> >At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do
>not
>know
>> >>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not
>thinkthey are
>&
>> >>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family
>has
>been
>> >>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no
>one has
>> >>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge.
>> >>
>> >>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site &
>if i
>> >>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different
>types
>of
>> >>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now
>just my
>> wife
>> >>& i.
>> >>
>> >>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain &
>ask
>> >>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might
>offer ya
>a
>> >>cold 1.
>> >>
>> >>                          shootshimself


%%%%%%%%%%%END OF MSg%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:59:26 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation.

After all these years I still don't get why people still scratch for any small
piece of information to document (Justify) a pyramid tent.  The way I see it,
you either play this game historically correct, or you don't.  If you do, then
you choose a tent is eminently documentable--something like a wedge.  If you
don't want to be so accurate, you choose a pyramid.  I mean, why choose a
pyramid in the first place.  They are about the same cost as a wedge.  They
are less poles.  Two less.  Big deal.  They set up faster.  My wedge  tent is
up in 7 to 10 minutes.  What is this, a race?  And what difference does a few
minutes set-up make?

So I ask you, "Do you want to be historically correct?", or "Do you want to
set-up in record time so the time you have left over you can spend justifying
and looking for that one grain of support that someone, somewhere, onetime,
used a pyramid?" Whew, glad I got that off my chest, it's been crushing me.
Guess you know the way my stick floats.
Pat Surrena #1449

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:30:51 -0700
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: list topics

At 01:23 PM 2/16/98 -0800, [e-mail] wrote:
......
Would a discussion on the equipment & weaponry of Kentucky frontiersmen
of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries be a permissable
topic for the List?  Though, strictly speaking, outside the geographical
and chronological limitations of the List, because the culture of the
western mountain man evolved, in many respects, from the culture of the
Kentucky frontiersman, would a discussion of the latter be out of place?

and

>I have a fair amount of information about several Kentucky
>backwoodsmen/soldiers, who were part of one family, but am holding off
>posting it until the Rule-maker, if there is one, says yea or nay.
>
...

Well, this here e-mail list administrator has been out of town for a few
days, so I'm just now getting around to responding.  Just back from a
winter snowshoe-in camp, up in the Bear River Range of SE Idaho.  When the
camp fire finally melted all the way to the ground, we saw that the snow
was about six feet deep.  Shinin times!

Anyway, as far as appropriate topics for this list, our main focus is the
history of the mountain men in the Rocky Mountains during the early 19th
century, and in equipment and living history skills related to that period
and place.  Topics directly related to that, like the late 18th century
frontiersmen are a little off-center, but are close enough to be welcome.
By the way, I don't know of any other e-mail lists specializing in the 18th
century eastern frontiersmen, but perhaps there is one - I bet there's
enough interest.

While we're at it , lets talk about some other topics we tend to get on may
be more appropriate to other e-mail lists.  Although many of us use
muzzleloading fire arms, technical discussions about gunsmithing,  optimum
loads, rules for competition, etc, can get quite involved, and there are
one or two other excellent e-mail lists devoted to that.  I'd suggest we
focus our muzzleloader discussions on this list on their historical
aspects, and appropriate use in living history activities.  Another topic
that can get very heated and _way_ off-topic are discussions about gun
control and anti-hunting laws.  There are other, very active mailing lists
covering these, so lets not get too deep into that here, even though a lot
of us are concerned about these issues.

If anybody has any comments or suggestions on the operation of this e-mail
list, please e-mail me on the side - [e-mail] . - although I
apologize in advance that I won't be able to respond to all messages.

YMHOS

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:11:20 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation.

Who was this Susan Magoffin, and where do I read about her trip?

My great-great grandfather traveled the Santa Fe trail both ways in 1846,
then traveled it both ways again in 1847.  He kept a pretty good journal,
but I don't recall him writing anything about running into Susan and her
pyramid tent.  He did mention in his journal on a number of occasions,
however, that he didn't have any tent and wished that he did.

 He once weather a four-day blizzard under an overhanging river bank.  Got
so cold it froze their mules tails.  Must of had a fire under that
overhanging river bank because he kept the ink thawed out long enough to
write in his journal.  Can't build a fire in pyramid tent.  Wonder if Susan
would have kept him warm and the ink unthawed inside her pyramid tent.

Then on the other hand, maybe he did run into Susan in her pyramid tent, but
like our Commander and Chief, was enough of a gentleman to know that some
stories should go untold.

Tell us more about this Susan.  I stand prepared to revise the family
history.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation.


>Susan Magoffin used a one pole pyramid on her trip down the Santa Fe
>trail in 1846.  Don Keas
>
>
>David Tippets wrote:
>>Dear Zaz, et al,
>>
>>I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically
>>because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at
>>least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it
>>wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western
>emigration
>>period.
>>
>>Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages
>>11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of
>>documentation.
>>
>>The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is
>that
>>it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the
>background.
>>As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any
>of
>>the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the
>>British bell tent or the Sibley tent.  Certainly the Scottish Lord
>paying
>>Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the
>>common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously
>>engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer.
>>
>>So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller
>>painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be
>relatively
>>confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life
>>weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent.  It's not too big a
>jump
>>to reason that  Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had
>>worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo.
>>
>>There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British
>>bell tents, and that at least some of  the bell tents used by David
>Thompson
>>found their way to the Rocky Mountains.
>>
>>You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity
>of
>>the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi
>>
>>
>>>There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that I am
>>>aware of.  The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur Trade"
>by
>>>Samuel L. Darby on page 8.  Although this not a 1st hand source, he
>>mentions
>>>other sources which are.  The other I am readily aware of is a painting
>by
>>>Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp."  It is plate 37 in the book,
>>"Alfred
>>>Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail."  In the background is a tent
>>that
>>>looks like it might be a Pyramid.
>>>
>>>Best Regards,
>>>
>>>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>>>
>>>At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not
>know
>>>>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey
>are &
>>>>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has
>been
>>>>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one
>has
>>>>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge.
>>>>
>>>>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if
>i
>>>>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types
>of
>>>>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my
>>wife
>>>>& i.
>>>>
>>>>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask
>>>>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer
>ya a
>>>>cold 1.
>>>>
>>>>                          shootshimself
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>RFC822 header
>>-----------------------------------
>>
>>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com
>>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AC135C60210; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:53:23 MST
>>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4)
>> id 0y4FeG-00059R-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:08 -0700
>>Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy)
>> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4)
>> id 0y4FeC-00058Y-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:04 -0700
>>Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5)
>id
>>SAA25097 for [e-mail]; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:03
>-0700 (MST)
>>Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS02 [207.68.152.140]
>> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4)
>> id 0y3yOS-0005Ei-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:21:41 -0700
>>Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR02 - 207.68.143.138 by email.msn.com with
>>Microsoft SMTPSVC;
>> Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:21:57 -0800
>>Received: from dtippets - 153.35.212.245 by email.msn.com with Microsoft
>
>>SMTPSVC;
>> Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:24:39 -0800
>>From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation
>>Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:14:33 -0700
>>X-Priority: 3
>>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
>>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
>>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>>Sender: [e-mail]
>>Precedence: bulk
>>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>>X-UIDL: 881270094
>>Status: U
>>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #22
******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.
 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.