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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #11 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, January 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 011 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 01:43:08 EST From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly Ho.....the List, Can anyone tell me how, or where, I can get some back issues of the "Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly"? Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:28:53 -0500 From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Smoothbore Report John, The Leatherman in Carlisle, Pa. is good. I'll get you an address asap. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:29:49 -0800 From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly SWcushing wrote: > Can anyone tell me how, or where, I can get some back issues of the "Museum of > the Fur Trade Quarterly"? The Museum of the Fur Trade had them in stock. There were a few early years that had been sold old. Check with them. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:25:44 -0500 From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: MtMan-List: smoothbore fix Hello the list, Well, found out the trouble with my smoothbore not suckin down those .600 ball. Considering some of the shotgun/smoothbore topics lately, some of you are going to get mad at me. I took it back up to Fort Chambers Gun Shop where I got it and we checked it out. Well, it turns out it is jug choked! No wonder it was shooting shot so well. Anyhow, good thing I didn't put a ball thru it. Now here comes the part that may make some of you mad, I left it to have the jug choke reamed out. My original purpose was to have something I could shoot either shot or ball, so I'm having this done. Man, she did shoot a great pattern though. I hope I can get a decent one afterwards. We couldn't even get a .570 ball down very easily until about an inch and a half down the bore and then it just fell in. I'm afraid the choke would act as an obstruction, so I thought it best to get it reamed. That's the scoop. I'm now waiting not so patiently to get it again! Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:33:23 -0800 From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2C12.D54BF3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Write the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly they have a large list to pick from. Museum of the fur trade 6321 hwy 20 Chadron Nebraska 69337 Later Jon Towns - ---------- : From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> : To: hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly : Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 10:43 PM : : Ho.....the List, : : Can anyone tell me how, or where, I can get some back issues of the "Museum of : the Fur Trade Quarterly"? : : Steve - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2C12.D54BF3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Write the Museum of the Fur Trade = Quarterly they have a large list to pick from. Museum of the = fur trade 6321 hwy 20 Chadron Nebraska 69337 Later Jon = Towns ---------- : From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> : To: hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly : = Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 10:43 PM : : Ho.....the = List, : : Can anyone tell me how, or where, I can get some back = issues of the "Museum of : the Fur Trade Quarterly"? : = : Steve </body></html> - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2C12.D54BF3C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 19:55:21 PST From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: A source for leather Amen about my friend Wooden Hawk. If he ever tells you that a chicken dips snuff you should check under its wing for a can of Copenhagen. Big Zwey - ---------- > Here's a source I've used for about 10 years. Don's a member of the > AMM, and one of the straightest shooters I've ever met. If you don't > see what you want in the catalog, ask for it. He carries a little bit > of everything. At rendezvous, you need to visit his trade lodge > daily, as the merchandise changes. > > woodenhawk@aol.com > http://members.aol.com/WoodenHawk/tradingco.html > > Usual disclaimer, no $$$ to me one way or the other. > Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com > Full SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus > Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:46:14 -0700 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Watches (was: Time and Damascus Steel) I'm turning this one over to my husband too! Jeff responds once more: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> wrote: >One interesting item from David Thompson's journal during his early years >with the Hudson Bay Co. prior to his defection to the North West Fur Co., is >that just as soon a clock was available that the HBC considered dependable >and accurate enough to calculating longitude the Company immediately shipped >Thompson one from England. There were no details about what the timepiece >was like. Thompson first received two watches from the Hudson's Bay Company in 1792, although the type and maker are not known. Both of these watches gave him trouble, as he sent them for repair the following year, and borrowed a pair from Joseph Colen, the Governor of York Factory. The following year (1794) his watches returned from repair along with 'a second & stop watch with 2 case val[ue] [pounds]12.12 - with spare glasses and keys per Jolly ordered [serial] No. 310'. This watch was made by Joseph Jolly, 11 Dean Street, Fetter Lane, London. Jolly supplied watches to other early HBC explorers such as Peter Fidler (No. 291) and Malchom Ross (No. 292) (Jeff & Angela Gottfred, "The Life of David Thompson", in _Northwest Journal_ vol. V, citing Smyth). These Jolly watches appear to have been good quality 'common' watches, and not the much more accurate 'pocket chronometers'. Even though pocket chronometers were available, Thompson was not equipped with one. As late as 1810 he complains about the accuracy of his 'common watches'. I have computed his watch rate during December 1810 to January 1811 at 4 seconds per hour fast, plus or minus 9 seconds per hour. Such a watch would be useless for direct computation of longitude. The pocket chronometers or 'deck watches' made by Arnold, Earnshaw and Broeckbank were worth around 25 Guineas in 1806. Such pocket chronometers were as accurate as a second or two per day. Note that even this is not accurate enough for direct computation of longitude many months after the watch is set. (How much the watch gains or loses in any time period is irrelevant, what matters is whether the rate of gain or loss is constant. My Seiko quartz watch gains 0.5 seconds per day - however, its rate is so constant that I can compute GMT to one second accuracy after a year (leap seconds notwithstanding!). Pocket chronometers did not have such constant rates.) The better English made 'common' watches of the period (circa 1800) would have used a rack lever escapement (the detached lever escapement used in modern mechanical watches did not emerge until about 1814). Pocket chronometers used a spring detent escapement (Arnold began producing these in the early 1780's), required no oil, and keep just as good time today as they did when they were first made 200 years ago. (Landes, David S. _Revolution in Time : Clocks and the Making of the Modern World_. Belknap Press : Cambridge, Mass, 1983. ISBN 0-674-76800-0.) It is also an interesting historical note that Harrison's famous chronometers simply proved that accurate time-keeping was possible. His designs (with the exception of the retaining power) did not survive his No. 4. The pocket and boxed marine chronometers of Arnold &c. had completely different 'guts'. (see Sobel, Dava. _Longitude : The True Story of a Lone Genius Who Solved the Greatist Scientific Problem of His Time_. Walker & Co. : NY, 1995. ISBN 0-8027-1312-2) agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:27:13 -0600 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making At 09:35 PM 1/27/98 EST, Steve wrote: > >John....real good information. Here in the Great Northwest, we have >cottonwood, cedar, and willow....but we also have a lot of rain. You mentioned >"seasoned" wood... can a friction fire be made out of "green", of even >somewhat wet wood? > With enough work, patience and dogged determination most anything can be done. You just need to spin the drill fast enough and long enough to vaporize all the moisture. Have fun! It's fairly wet in other parts of the country; though most of us get a little tan with our rust. I've found dead standing to be the easiest to work with. Split away the outer wood and fashion fire tools from the inner wood, it will usually be dry enough, if it's not flat on the ground. Even when wet and rainy; the stringy inner bark from large cedar trunks and such on the ground is dry enough for tinder if taken from the top side of the log where the outer bark and drainage kept the inner dry. The wood beneath should be dry enough (seasoned) as well. If you can build fires in the Great North West you can build fires anywhere. Good luck. To maximize your skills learn to do without your knife and hawk. Then even one knife becomes a luxury not a necessity. When you know you need nothing but your knowledge & skills to survive, the inner certainty and self confidence gained; is beyond description of words. A benefit to every aspect of life. Being able to build a fire, no matter what you don't have, is primary to developing an absolute certainty of self. It is the most basic tool of survival. One of the people I learned from was Ivan from up in the Great North West. One thing was how to fashion stone into tools without causing great personal bodily harm. Not just flints for my lock, but, scrappers, and skinners, and choppers, and splitters, how to make the tool I need, when I need it. I don't know if Ivan's still around, Jon Townes could tell you. Ivan once told me he preferred western red cedar for fire tools; convenient considering where he lived. I've wondered if there might not be a way to make fire tools of "fat" wood that would ignite without aid of a tinder bundle. Fat wood being the extremely dense resinous heart wood found in old tamarack and such up in your country or ancient pines in the South. The sticky stuff that if you touch it with a flame it instantly ignites. Now that would be a kit you could sell. I can ignite a candle with char, I was told it wasn't possible, before I learned how. I would like to see the tape of the "Islander's" method Dennis Fisher described. Talk about a hot foot. In essence the stick is the fireboard and the bark is the bearing, bow and drill. Can't think of any bark and wood in this country with the right properties to make that work - off hand. Hickory bark might offer possibilities, willow is probably too weak. Friction on a char-able surface is what we seek. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:56:25 +0000 From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois Did an article a while back called "Those Naughty West Coast Iroquois" if'n yer interested it can be read at: http://www.lib.uconn.edu/NativeTech/essays/wiroquois.html Longtrail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:17:45 -0500 From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: A source for leather John, The Leatherman's address is: The Leatherman Gary Fatherree 45 Wedgewood Drive, Carlisle, Pa 17013 (717) 249-5977 Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:54:04 +0000 From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois Hi again, I just tried accessing my article "Those Naughty West Coast Iroquois at the site I mentioned yesterday and couldn't get it. So I suggest you go to the main site http://www.lib.uconn.edu/NativeTech/NativeTech.html Once there, choose "Essays and Articles". You should not have a problem with doing it that way. Sorry for the mistake. Longtrail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:58:37 -0600 (MDT) From: Rick Williams <ERWillia@admrec.byu.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Hail the list! I've had an interest to determine which arms the Corp of Discovery used beside the pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. My personna is that of a non-military member of the Corp. Probably one of the so called Kentucky "nine." Here's my problem--It is well documented that Lewis had delivered 15 "short" rifles from the arsenal along with slings, cartouche boxes etc; I can even find a receipt and payment for fifteen shooting bags and powder horns, but I cannot find any documentation describing the "other" rifles taken or their source. I have "Firearms of the American West" describing journal entries showing there were both the short Harper's Ferry rifles and references to long rifles. Ambrose states that while in Philadelphia, Lewis journeyed to nearby Lancaster to buy additional rifles, but guess what? No reference, no footnote, no firm and no description. I'm presently pouring over Jackson's "Letters" and can find minute detail for almost all other purchases, but nothing for additional firearms. We know of additional supplies obtained in St. Louis but still nothing about firearms. It is known that substancial contracts to provide military arms were let to many Lancaster based gunsmiths for many years starting with the Revolution and beyond even Harper's Ferry coming online. I think the key to finding this secret is determining where Ambrose came across his bold statement. To do my personna correctly I can assume that these Kentucky Nine selected by Clark as backwoodsmen around Louisville would have had there own arms, but unless I can also see where Lewis took additional Locks and gun parts and even a psuedo gunsmith/blacksmith in the Fields but I can't see him saying to those additional members he picked up along the way "Just use your own weapon there!' All other details are too precise. As an aside I also found some interesting details in those lists. Here's just a few observations. There were 500 rifle flints but also 150 musket flints 1pair Horseman pistols 2 pocket pistols for Lewis specifically Also in the invoice of weapons received from Harper's Ferry are 18 tomahawks- some would say these could be for indian trade but I don't believe so for two reasons 1: all the indian trade items are listed and obtained through other vendors in fat on page 93 are listed 12 pipe tomahawks otained under indian presents 2: Most of the numbers of materials obtained through the arsenal are very close to 15 or multiples thereof which was the originally determined size for the expedition.(WHY and how it grew is another very interesting mystery and story) back to weapons: 15 scalping knives and belts 15 gun slings 30 brushes and wires 15 cartouch (sic) box belts These boys knew how to fight hand to hand and weren't going to rely on fire power only! 15 blankets 3 pt.(interesting in light of some of our recent speculation concerning the use of "points" in describing blankets 15 match coats 15 priv. (?) Wool overalls (Blue) 20 Frocks 30 Priv. Lin. shirts 20 Pr. Shoes 15 Painted Knapsacks (from p.98 Letters of the lewis and clark expedition by Donald Jackson second edition) Also on p. 90 an entry for 107 yds of 7/8 (?) Linen @1/6 and then a few lines later To making the brown linen into 8 Tents, with Eyelet-holes, laps, &c. Thread &c. To 2 gross of Hooks &Eyes @ 3/9 sounds to me like he expected his soldiers to each carry a half tent and then hook them together (eyelets and laps)????? 46 1/2 yds of 7/8 (Russia) Flanders Sheeting To making the Russia Sheeting into 45 Bags, Thread & cord. To Oiling all the Linen & Sheeting-- 150 Square Yards To numbering all the Bags & Tents They also got one tent (officers??) from Harper's Ferry as well I guess we know they expected to be waterproof including the tents. This last thing MIGHT shed some light on some of the PACK issues we've discussed. On page 74 in Lewis's list of materials he wanted are: 30 Sheep skins taken off the animal as perfectly whole as possible whithout being split on the belly as usual and dress'd only with lime to free them from the wool; or otherwise about the same quantity of Oil Cloth bags well painted. First of all he got the bags and not the hides but it is interesting consideration and one that MAY not have been his alone as to the use of an animal case as a transport device. But look what follows. Raw Hide for pack strings Dress'd letter for Hoppus-Straps Other packing Jackson has an interesting footnote to the Hoppus-straps The source of the term is not entirely clear: "hoopas" has been identified as an indian term for knapsack. Now for the speculation. There are at least 6 different types of needles taken along by the expedition along with thread and cordage. It is MY feeling that Lewis intended to use these "Hoppus-Straps" as shoulder straps for his animal case or Oil cloth bags and have his men sew these on when and where needed along the way. Makes me wonder how common the methodology was...... Any help on the guns would be greatly appreciated. YMHOS Rick ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #11 ****************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.