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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #10 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, January 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 010 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:27:11 -0800 From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtman-list:tva long arms terry landis wrote: > > I am considering a tennesse valley arms front loader. how do they > rate?also does anyone have some suggestions for a full stock hunting > rifle? Greetings Terry, Just a little comment on buying a reproduction firearm mailorder. Find someone at a shop or event that has something produced from the company your considering and examin it closely. I purchased a Huddelson Mountain Rifle from Naragansett Arms and was not to pleased with the quality or attention to detail on the rifel that I recived. Post me privately if you want the details. Buyer be aware. Best regards from another Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:38:36 -0500 From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: MtMan-List: New Smoothbore Report Hello the list! Well, I finally picked up my new smoothbore from layaway. Bought prelubed cushion wads and over powder/over shot cards and .600 ball to go with it. If you recall, I already had #5 chilled and some #00 thru # mixed shot given to me by a friend. I had previously report that the gun was pretty plain, but the more I looked at it the better the walnut stock looked. I'm a curly maple fan, but the grain in this walnut really looked good! Anyway, on to the shooting report. Temp = 38 degrees F and dropping fast! Condition = very damp at first and heavy snow towards the end/light wind. Shot at 30" circle, off hand at 15 yards to start. First load: 60 gr 3f Goex/ equivalent of 70 gr of #5 shot. Blue & Gray over the powder (thick card), Blue & Gray .5" prelubed cushion wad (smelled like a used dip of Skoal), and a thin Blue & Gray over shot card. Small delay in ignition. Extremely tight group (turkeys and squirrels look out!). Fixed flint and charged same load a few more times with faster ignition and similar results. All shots hitting low. Moved to 25 yards with same load and had only a couple of pellets out of circle with no holes in pattern. Moved shot charge down to equivalent of 60 gr. and pattern spread some, but still good with no holes. Tried 70gr equiv. of mixed shot minus the #00 and all I can say is WOW! Too bad it isn't legal for turkeys! Very big hole in paper. Now on to ball. Got everything ready, dumped in a 60gr load of 3f and put on the spit patch. Went to put in a ball and it's too big! Even without a patch it was way too big. I'm thinking someone wasn't too close on their measurements. Well, it's thirty miles back to the ML shop, so I just call and see if they can talk to the maker and find out what size ball he recommends. Meanwhile I get a .490 out of my rifle bag and double patch it. Don't know where that one went! Will get the right sized ball and sight it in before doing anymore shooting. In the meantime I made a rivercane shot charger and a separate cane powder measure, made a small bag to hold tow and a flint bag while watching the Superbowl. I'm still deciding what style shooting bag and shot bag to make. Waiting on a new horn from a buddy of mine in the F&I style. Can anyone tell me what the oz. measure/volume of the 70 gr. equivalent of shot is? Ain't too good at cipherin' ya know! Had fun. I think I'll be satisfied with this gun. Can't wait to get her sighted in and chase some squirrels, bunnies and some springtime turkeys. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:04:23 -0700 (MST) From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous > I believe they have documented that almost half the trappers at the 1824 > rendezvous were Iroquois. Somebody speculated that a lot of those were the > trappers who defected from Peter Skene Ogden's Brigade. Long before then the > Northwest Company employed Iroquois as "hunters." I assume you mean the 1825 rendezvous. I'm a little skeptical about 50% Iroquois, would be interested to see the research. The majority of the men who defected from Ogden were indeed Iroquois (many are named in Kittson's Journal), but this accounts for less than 25 percent. Ashley wrote: "On the 1st day of july, all the men in my employ or with whom I had any concern in the country, together with twenty-nine, who had recently withdrawn from the Hudson Bay company, making in all 120 men, were assembled in two camps near each other about 20 miles distant from the place appointed by me as a general rendezvous" Many men are named in Ashley's accounts. One could do some geneology to determine which were Iroquois, but they don't have obvious Iroquois names (except for the Ogden bunch). I think it would be difficult to determine. > > The following offer some evidence that Black Harris may have been one whose > roots went back to Iroquois along the St. Lawerence: Alfred Jacob Miller > depicted him as very dark complected and with sparse facial hair. Miller > also recorded him wearing a hunting-hood hat of the type that has it's > origens among the Indian's of the Northeast. Black was a common Iroquois > name. He is closely associated with many of the French-named trappers. > There's a biography of Harris in Hafen's Mountain Men series: Harris, Moses "Black", by Jerome Peltier, vol IV pg. 103-117 I haven't had a chance to look it up, but I bet that will shed some light. - -Dean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:00:30 -0800 From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2A8C.ABE5E400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wasn't there only 19 deserters? - ---------- : From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous : Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:04 AM : : > I believe they have documented that almost half the trappers at the 1824 : > rendezvous were Iroquois. Somebody speculated that a lot of those were the : > trappers who defected from Peter Skene Ogden's Brigade. Long before then the : > Northwest Company employed Iroquois as "hunters." : : : I assume you mean the 1825 rendezvous. I'm a little skeptical about 50% : Iroquois, would be interested to see the research. The majority of the : men who : defected from Ogden were indeed Iroquois (many are named in Kittson's : Journal), but this accounts for less than 25 percent. : Ashley wrote: : "On the 1st day of july, all the men in my employ or with : whom I had any concern in the country, together with twenty-nine, who had : recently withdrawn from the Hudson Bay company, making in all 120 men, : were assembled in two camps near each other about 20 miles distant : from the place appointed by me as a general rendezvous" : : Many men are named in Ashley's accounts. One could do some geneology to : determine which were Iroquois, but they don't have obvious Iroquois names : (except for the Ogden bunch). I think it would be difficult to determine. : : : > : > The following offer some evidence that Black Harris may have been one whose : > roots went back to Iroquois along the St. Lawerence: Alfred Jacob Miller : > depicted him as very dark complected and with sparse facial hair. Miller : > also recorded him wearing a hunting-hood hat of the type that has it's : > origens among the Indian's of the Northeast. Black was a common Iroquois : > name. He is closely associated with many of the French-named trappers. : > : : There's a biography of Harris in Hafen's Mountain Men series: : Harris, Moses "Black", by Jerome Peltier, vol IV pg. 103-117 : I haven't had a chance to look it up, but I bet that will shed some light. : : -Dean - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2A8C.ABE5E400 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Wasn't there only 19 = deserters? ---------- : From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 = rendezvous : Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:04 AM : : > I = believe they have documented that almost half the trappers at the = 1824 : > rendezvous were Iroquois. Somebody speculated that = a lot of those were the : > trappers who defected from Peter Skene = Ogden's Brigade. Long before then the : > Northwest Company = employed Iroquois as "hunters." : : : I assume you = mean the 1825 rendezvous. I'm a little skeptical about 50% : = Iroquois, would be interested to see the research. The majority of = the : men who : defected from Ogden were indeed Iroquois (many are = named in Kittson's : Journal), but this accounts for less than 25 = percent. : Ashley wrote: : "On the 1st day of july, = all the men in my employ or with : whom I had any concern in the = country, together with twenty-nine, who had : recently withdrawn from = the Hudson Bay company, making in all 120 men, : were assembled in = two camps near each other about 20 miles distant : from the place = appointed by me as a general rendezvous" : : Many men are = named in Ashley's accounts. One could do some geneology to : = determine which were Iroquois, but they don't have obvious Iroquois = names : (except for the Ogden bunch). I think it would be = difficult to determine. : : : > : > The following = offer some evidence that Black Harris may have been one whose : > = roots went back to Iroquois along the St. Lawerence: Alfred Jacob = Miller : > depicted him as very dark complected and with sparse = facial hair. Miller : > also recorded him wearing a = hunting-hood hat of the type that has it's : > origens among the = Indian's of the Northeast. Black was a common Iroquois : > = name. He is closely associated with many of the French-named = trappers. : > : : There's a biography of Harris in = Hafen's Mountain Men series: : Harris, Moses "Black", by = Jerome Peltier, vol IV pg. 103-117 : I haven't had a chance to look = it up, but I bet that will shed some light. : : -Dean </body></html> - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2A8C.ABE5E400-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:50:29 -0500 From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names - -----Original Message----- From: David Tippets <wolverine76@email.msn.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 8:09 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names >I don't have the information to document it, but hope this grad student's >research is published this year and it may include something about Black >Harris. I met him at the Sept. fur trade symposium in Pinedale, but can't >remember his name. He's one of Fred Gowans' grad student's, however, and we >should be able to ask Gowans for an update on the research. [snip] David, you seem quite knowledgeable about the Iroquois. I'd like to know if you know anything about a Mohawk chief named Tiyanoga, also known as Hendrik. I've not had much success in gathering data. Thanks, Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:13:06 -0700 From: "Lee Cardon"<lcardon@insurquote.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FCC I know this is off topic, and I apologize in advance, but this is regarding the previous note that was sent and is intended to clear up any misinformation. Thanks for your patience - -Lee Cardon THE FCC, INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS, AND ACCESS CHARGES This fact sheet offers informal guidance on an issue that has generated a great deal of public interest. For more specific details about the proceedings currently before the Commission, please visit our web site (http://www.fcc.gov/). In December 1996, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) requested public comment on issues relating to the charges that Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and similar companies pay to local telephone companies. On May 7, 1997, the FCC decided to leave the existing rate structure in place. In other words, the FCC decided not to allow local telephone companies to impose per-minute access charged on ISPs. Please Note: There is no open comment period in this proceeding. If you have recently seen a message on the Internet stating that in response to a request from local telephone companies, the FCC is requesting comments to <isp@fcc.gov> by February 1998, be aware that this information is inaccurate. The FCC issued an unrelated public notice, DA 98-2, on January 5, 1998 in connection with a report to Congress on universal service. Pursuant to the FCC's 1998 appropriations legislation, the Commission must submit a report by April 10, 1998 on several issues including the legal status of Internet services under the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Comments in response to the public notice are due January 20, 1998, and reply comments are due February 2, 1998. Informal comments may be sent by email to <usreport@fcc.gov>. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:49:18 -0700 From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous At 07:00 PM 1/26/98 -0800, Jon Towns wrote: >>>> <excerpt> <smaller>Wasn't there only 19 deserters? - ---------- </smaller></excerpt> Well, good question. Gen Ashley himself said there were 29, so I won't argue with him. But could be he was referring to all the ex-HBC men, and not just those who deserted on the Weber that spring. HBC clerk William Kittson kept a detailed journal, as did Ogden. (http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/kitjrl.html) Kittson names the following individuals as deserting between May 24 - 30, 1825. The edition of his journal I have stops on June 1; there could have been more desertions later in the season. The names with an asterik were probably Iroquois. Alexander Carson Charles Duford Martin Miaquin* Pierre Tevaiiitagon* Jaques Osteaceroko* Ignace Deohdiouwassere* Ignace Hatchiorauquasha (or Grey)* Laurent Karahouton* Baptise Sawenrego* Lazard Kayenquaretcha* Joseph Perreault Louis Kanota Montour Antoine Clement Annance Prudhomme Sansfacon* Theery Goddin J. Bte. Gervais Fras. Sasanare* - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:14:57 EST From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names > >David, you seem quite knowledgeable about the Iroquois. I'd like to >know if >you know anything about a Mohawk chief named Tiyanoga, also known as >Hendrik. I've not had much success in gathering data. > >Thanks, > >Fred > > Why not ask the Mohawks their selves? There's a musemum that could possibly help you...I went there when I was attending college in Rochester, NY. The director of the program is a descdant of the Anglo lady who decided to stay with the Senecas...Ms. Jamimeson...(sp?) He's a real well known artist who decided to drop out of the rat race in NYC in the art field after he felt that he was being pulled in opposite directions. He might or might not recall me...just see if he remembers a deaf guy who attended the Rochester Institute of Technology. Tell him I sent ya the address. I also have some Mohawk addresses that relate to some of them who decided to move back to their original birthplace Mohawk Valley. I'll find that address later but here's the Victor address. Ganondagon State Historical Site 1488 Victor-Holcomb Rd Victor, NY 14564 Real historic place as it was the last place that the Senecas lived before being driven else where but what's so ironic is that the Seneca reservations are nearby. They drifted back and got their lands back (some of it anyway) and in one case one reservation even had to call in the Army to kick out the original descdeants of the settlers who had moved in there illegally and never paid more than $1 a year on a lease that was quite old and not up to par to inflation by today's standards...if they refused to pay up the new lease prices then they had soldiers escort them off the premises. That reservation also has an excellent musemum that I never had the opportunity to visit due to it being far from Rochester but worth a visit in my opinion. The musemum (Victor) showcases modern and traditional dances, traditional veg growing methods (in my opinion superior to the traditional farming method of planting in rows) and many more historical things. I'll try to find out the info about the Mohawk Valley...they do have web site though. Check it out in the Native American sections. Let me know what happens. Ted Hart _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:09:07 EST From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Smoothbore Report Congratulations, Scott! Your new smooth bore sounds like a lot of fun. I hope you and yours get years of fun out of it. With your bag and all the stuff your making, let me hit you up for a suggestion... Do you know a good, trustworthy place to get leather. I have a Tandy leather near me, but things get pricey fast. Have yourself a great day, and keep your powder dry. John Fleming ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 11:08:35 -0500 From: bruce.mcneal@ssa.gov Subject: MtMan-List: Re: A source for leather Hey John, When I'm not goin' to rendezvous I buy from Spotted Pony. You may have seen them advertised in Smoke & Fire. Spotted Pony Traders 8451 Ravenna Ave Louisville, Ohio 44641 1-800-875-6553 They are great to deal with and will help you out if you tell them what you're makin'. Like Moc weight elk or makin' sure you get skins the right shape for leggin's. They do not sell cow hide. Good luck. - Bruce McNeal ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Smoothbore Report Author: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> at ##Internet Date: 1/27/98 8:09 AM Congratulations, Scott! Your new smooth bore sounds like a lot of fun. I hope you and yours get years of fun out of it. With your bag and all the stuff your making, let me hit you up for a suggestion... Do you know a good, trustworthy place to get leather. I have a Tandy leather near me, but things get pricey fast. Have yourself a great day, and keep your powder dry. John Fleming ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:39:17 EST From: TetonTod <TetonTod@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names The Grad Student in question is Lynn Clayton. I'll inquire about Harris next time I talk to Lynn. Todd Glover ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:59:38 -0800 From: Richard Spencer <omega_strings@eee.org> Subject: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Hello the List, First, I'd like to thank all who posted an answer to my fire making questions. My interest in fire making in general and friction fires in particular dates back many years. All of my knowledge of fire making came from my father who has spent many years working out his own method. He says that "the first friction fire he ever saw, he made himself". Several years ago my father was invited to participate in the Texas Folk Life Festival in San Antonio. This is an invitation only event featuring over 200 demonstrators of the "old way of doing things". They include everything from Flint Knapping to Gun Smithing, Candle Making to Bee Keeping, Shingle splitting to Black Smithing. My father was invited to demonstrate Primitive Fire Making. I flew to Texas to help him. 4, 11 hours days was a lot for a 73 year old man. In that 4 days I personally made over 600 friction fires and countless flint and steel and burning glass fires for over 80,000 people that came to the festival. When I say fires, I mean flames, not just smoke. It usually takes me less than one minute to produce flames using friction and it works every time. The materials that I use are very low tech and would have been readily available in any age. I have never seen a video or read a book on fire making so I don't know how others do it. My method does differ from those described in the responses posted on this list. I don't want to come off here as a "know-it-all" but I believe that those differences are worth sharing with you all. I also believe that successful friction fire making is a skill that anyone can master. I have taught too many 10 year old kids to do it to believe that it's a hard thing to do. Both my father and I freely share what we know with anyone who has an interest. What follows here is a detailed description of how I make friction fires. The basic, I'm sure are known to all of you so I won't bore you with that. You need a bow and a bow string. The materials are not really important as long as they work. My bow is a willow limb about 30 inches long and I use a standard leather boot lace for a bow string. 1/8" nylon last much longer but is less than "period". The most important thing is the selection of drill rod and fire board. They must be soft enough to produce the fine powder necessary to form an ember but hard enough to produce enough heat to generate the ember. Several woods can be used. I use the bloom stem from a Yucca plant for a drill rod, you can also use the large end of the Yucca bloom stem to cut a fire board. The fire board needs to be no more that 1/2" thick and can been most any length and width. A small depression is made in the fire board to receive the drill rod in such a way as to leave about 1/4" space between the outer edge of the drill rod and the edge of the fire board. I use drill rods about 12" long and 1/2" in diameter. I use a "bearing block" for the top of the drill rod cut from a hickory limb. It's about 2" in diameter and 2" long with a hole drilled about 1/2" deep to accept the top of the drill rod. You need to lubricate the top of the drill rod to reduce wear. To "break in" a new hole in the fire board you simply set the drill rod in the bow and place the end in the depression you made and slowly "drill" the drill rod into the depression until the you have a "mated" hole deep enough to "hold" the drill rod in place when you really "bear down" it. Some of the responses on the list mentioned that a notch is cut in to fire board. This is VERY important to success. This wedge shaped notch is cut with a knife from the edge of the fire board into the new "mated" hole you just "drilled". It should extend into the hole about 1/3 of the diameter of the hole. If the notch is too small, it will not work. If the notch is too big the drill rod will "break out" of the hole. Some experimentation will be necessary here to get the hang of making the correct sized notch. You are now ready to make a friction fire. This is where my method is different from most others. Take a small piece of thin material and place it under the fire board at the hole with the notch in it. I use 1/8" plywood about 2 inches square. You can use bark, flint chip, anything you want, I call this a "spark catcher". With the spark catcher under the fire board, set the drill rod in the bow and place the end of the drill rod in the hole. Brace the fire board under your foot and using the bearing block on the top of the drill rod brace this against your leg. Keep the drill rod perpendicular to the fire board and very steady as you begin to move the bow back and forth. The most common errors are putting too much pressure on the drill rod and not using the full length of the bow in each stroke. This whole process should only take about 15 seconds to produce an ember large enough to start a fire. At this point I am going into some details about what is happening at the fire board and drill rod. To produce a fire you must have 3 things, fuel (in vapor form), oxygen, and ignition temperature. As the drill rod begins to spin, friction is doing two things. It is generating heat and producing a fine powder. Some of this fine powder is vaporized by the heat and these vapors are surrounded by unvaporized powder. As this combination of vaporized and unvaporized powder falls into the notch cut in the drill rod hole it is able to "grow" undisturbed in the notch. As the quantity increases, the hot vapor begin to consume the unvaporized powder and an ember is formed in the notch. This ember is very hot and is capable sustaining itself for several minutes as it continues to consume the unburned powder. The only "trick" to this is producing enough heat and powder to form the ember in the notch. As the bow spins the drill rod you produce heat. When it stops at the end of a stroke, you lose heat. So you want to use the full length of the bow on each stroke to produce maximum heat. You must also spin the drill rod very fast. To do this consistently will require practice. But if it is done correctly, an ember about 1/4" in diameter can be produced in about 15 seconds. You can easily watch the ember building in the notch so you will know when to stop. Most of you have noticed by now that I have not mentioned tender at all. That's because it is a separate step in the fire making process. Once you have generated a good sized ember in the notch siting on top of the spark catcher, set your bow and drill rod aside and use your knife to separate the ember from the notch and move the fire board aside. You should have a nice glowing ember sitting on top of your spark catcher. You have several minutes to work with here so you don't need to hurry needlessly. The last step is to pick up the spark catcher with the ember on it and dump the ember into a "birds nest" of tender of your choice and gently blow it into flames much the same way as you do for a piece of char cloth that has caught a spark from flint and steel. That is all there is to it. It works perfectly every time and is surprisingly fast. If you choose to try this method and have a problem, feel free to contact me via personal email (not through the list) and I will do my best to help you succeed. Just a side note. I have heard mentioned several time that some of you make your own char cloth. If you are using any fabric manufactured from cotton in the U.S. you need to know that, by law, that cotton fabric has been treated with a flame retardant. This treatment makes your char cloth harder to ignite. It is a problem that the Mt. Men didn't have to deal with. The only way around it is to use something that hasn't been treated to make your char. I use raw cotton right off the plant and it is incredible, catches even the smallest spark. I know that this is a very long message but I think it will be of interest to at least some of you. Richard Spencer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:24:41 EST From: BHANNON999 <BHANNON999@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Howdy list, I have read " Black Harris " by Jerome Peltier, it holds together ok, with lots of footnotes, and sources. It can be obtained from the publisher at the following: Ye Galleon Press Box 287 Fairfield, Washington 99012 (509) 283-2422 Talk to Glen Adams, he is the 85 year old publisher with a wealth of information about this time period. Check his book list also, I found he is the publisher of Eldon G Chuinard's book " Only One Man Died " about the Lewis & Clark Expedition. Bob Hannon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:51:13 -0800 From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making I saw an interesting story on natives in New Guinea the other day and one of the things they showed was how they made fire. They didn't show it step by step but rather in association with making a dinner. Their method was to take a round stick about one and half inches in diameter and lay it on a birdnest of tinder. This stick appeared to used over and over for this purpose. A couple of inches from one end was a shallow groove that encircle the stick. They took a strip of thin dry back about a quarter of an inch wide and three feet long and looped it around the stick in the groove. They held the stick flat on the ground on top of the nest with one foot and took a hold of the bark strip with both hands, one on each end of the strip. By rapidly pulling on one end and then the other they had fire in a minute or so. They use a motion like they were trying to saw the stick in half with a ring saw. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:53:31 GMT From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: A source for leather Here's a source I've used for about 10 years. Don's a member of the AMM, and one of the straightest shooters I've ever met. If you don't see what you want in the catalog, ask for it. He carries a little bit of everything. At rendezvous, you need to visit his trade lodge daily, as the merchandise changes. =20 woodenhawk@aol.com http://members.aol.com/WoodenHawk/tradingco.html Usual disclaimer, no $$$ to me one way or the other. =20 Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com =46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:13:25 -0600 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Richard, and the list; This has been a good thread on friction fire building. I would like to emphasize a couple of issues. Fire is the first important tool, it remains essential to the survival of every life; in varied form. Only we enjoy communion with its earliest elements & origins. Many people who don't smoke carry lighters, probably because of the very primal connection; to a time when a man's fire kit was his first, best, and most important tool of survival. When I was a new Cub Scout (early 50's) a forgotten leader told me that to build a fire one must take a hardwood stick and a softwood stick and rub them together real fast. Never did work and I tried hard. I've always been a bit of a fire bug. Set me back years on starting to figure it out. When choosing a drill and fire board the wood is critical to success; several have listed their favourites. Generally woods of a similar hardness and cellular structure will maximize friction, woods of differing cellular structure help eliminate friction. That's why some drawer glides are so sticky, and some work fine. If the woods are of like cellular structure but of dissimilar hardness one will wear faster than the other and may increase friction only enough to get your hopes up. Poor for drawer glides, bad for fire building. To limit friction over a long useful life; use two differing hardwoods of similar density; i.e., cherry against oak, maple against ash or hickory. To maximize friction use two matching pieces of soft wood, like cottonwood, which chars readily. On wood to wood bearing surfaces use lye soap to reduce friction, use rosin to increase friction, use beeswax to lubricate metal to wood bearing surfaces, sweet oil for metal to metal. In this context I reference a woods density; not whether deciduous or coniferous; when I speak of hard & soft. Smooth fine grain stone or a hardwood hand bearing will allow free spinning (lube with spit, oil, soap, wax, &c.; if you need it) of the bearing end of the soft wood drill. In the woods a hand bearing of the same wood works. In building a fire; usually the softer the wood the better, well seasoned wood helps. Cottonwood, willow, cedar, yucca and many more have all been successfully used; most often with matching wood for both board and bow drill. A pump (aka: spindle or flywheel) drill is another ancient alternative that works well. With more practice and skill (easier for two people than one) a hand drill can be made to work. Any drill and fire board is easier to use the second and third time. Char the drill tip and fire board notch a bit, on a new set, to ease the first fire. Polish the bearing end to mate and run smooth. Almost any stick and cordage will make a suitable fire bow. Instead of making up (and only using) a kit of perfect tools; learn to build a fire with what is found as you wander. Save the perfect/fancy kit for showing off at rendezvous, lectures, faires and when demonstrating at a school or for a troop of scouts. So they know the real way; and you know your skills, not equipment, are at their peak. John... John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john<kramer@kramerize.com> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:35:36 EST From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making In a message dated 1/27/98 8:45:22 PM, you wrote: <<Instead of making up (and only using) a kit of perfect tools; learn to build a fire with what is found as you wander. Save the perfect/fancy kit for showing off at rendezvous,>> John....real good information. Here in the Great Northwest, we have cottonwood, cedar, and willow....but we also have a lot of rain. You mentioned "seasoned" wood... can a friction fire be made out of "green", of even somewhat wet wood? Using a hawk and knife, I believe I can gather all the materials I need, but doubt if it would be seasoned...... Will give a report on results shortly. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:07:39 -0500 From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names - -----Original Message----- From: Ted A Hart <tedhart@juno.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 12:20 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names >> >>David, you seem quite knowledgeable about the Iroquois. I'd like to >>know if >>you know anything about a Mohawk chief named Tiyanoga, also known as >>Hendrik. I've not had much success in gathering data. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Fred >> >> >Why not ask the Mohawks their selves? There's a musemum that could 'Been that route with no success. >possibly help you...I went there when I was attending college in >Rochester, NY. The director of the program is a descdant of the Anglo >lady who decided to stay with the Senecas...Ms. Jamimeson...(sp?) He's a >real well known artist who decided to drop out of the rat race in NYC in >the art field after he felt that he was being pulled in opposite >directions. He might or might not recall me...just see if he remembers a >deaf guy who attended the Rochester Institute of Technology. Tell him I >sent ya the address. I also have some Mohawk addresses that relate to >some of them who decided to move back to their original birthplace Mohawk >Valley. I'll find that address later but here's the Victor address. > >Ganondagon State Historical Site >1488 Victor-Holcomb Rd >Victor, NY 14564 Thanks! >Real historic place as it was the last place that the Senecas lived >before being driven else where but what's so ironic is that the Seneca >reservations are nearby. They drifted back and got their lands back >(some of it anyway) and in one case one reservation even had to call in >the Army to kick out the original descdeants of the settlers who had >moved in there illegally and never paid more than $1 a year on a lease >that was quite old and not up to par to inflation by today's >standards...if they refused to pay up the new lease prices then they had >soldiers escort them off the premises. That reservation also has an >excellent musemum that I never had the opportunity to visit due to it >being far from Rochester but worth a visit in my opinion. The musemum >(Victor) showcases modern and traditional dances, traditional veg growing >methods (in my opinion superior to the traditional farming method of >planting in rows) and many more historical things. The Senecas aren't far from me, and have been to a pow wow. No one there was of any help either, but I certainly did enjoy the visit. >I'll try to find out the info about the Mohawk Valley...they do have web >site though. Check it out in the Native American sections. Let me know >what happens. I'd be grateful for the references......thanks very much. Regards, Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:14:47 -0800 From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Snow Snake This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2B70.FA976800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow snake game is held on a flat field. The Eastern Indians would haul a small log in the snow to make a grove and teams of six completed to skid the snake the greatest distance the throw was made by holding the tail of the snake (a straight stick carved with a snakes head on it)with the index finger. The thumb and other fingers held the snake parallel to the ground. In a crouched position the thrower hurled the stick forward with an underhand sweep much as in modern day bowling or the snow snake could be thrown down the trough, much like skipping a stone on the water. Taken out of the book Indian Handcrafts by C Keith Wilbur - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2B70.FA976800 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Snow snake game is held on a flat = field. The Eastern Indians would haul a small log in the snow to = make a grove and teams of six completed to skid the snake the greatest = distance the throw was made by holding the tail of the snake (a straight = stick carved with a snakes head on it)with the index finger. The = thumb and other fingers held the snake parallel to the ground. In = a crouched position the thrower hurled the stick forward with an = underhand sweep much as in modern day bowling or the snow snake could be = thrown down the trough, much like skipping a stone on the water. = Taken out of the book Indian Handcrafts by C Keith = Wilbur </body></html> - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2B70.FA976800-- ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #10 ****************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.