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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #12 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, February 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 012 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 08:46:44 -0800 From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2E24.C2168CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well Rick I am a student of the Corp of Discovery also and have several books on the subject but I have a memory problem. Where!!! I have read and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where I read it I don't remember. Sorry, I'll run across it and tell the list because it will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone on the list can remember. Later Jon Towns - ---------- : From: Rick Williams <ERWillia@admrec.byu.edu> : To: hist_text@xmission.com; hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery : Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 2:58 PM : : Hail the list! : : I've had an interest to determine which arms the Corp of Discovery : used beside the pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. My personna is that of a : non-military member of the Corp. Probably one of the so called : Kentucky "nine." : - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2E24.C2168CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> Well Rick I am a student of the Corp = of Discovery also and have several books on the subject but I have a = memory problem. Where!!! I have read and know for a fact = that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where I read it I = don't remember. Sorry, I'll run across it and tell the list = because it will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone on the list = can remember. Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: Rick = Williams <ERWillia@admrec.byu.edu> : To: hist_text@xmission.com; = hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of = Discovery : Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 2:58 PM : : Hail = the list! : : I've had an interest to determine which arms the = Corp of Discovery : used beside the pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. = My personna is that of a : non-military member of the Corp. = Probably one of the so called : Kentucky = "nine." : </body></html> - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2E24.C2168CC0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 08:14:24 EST From: JFLEMYTH@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Corp of Discovery Rick, I don't know about the other guns of the corps of discovery. I am on page 48 of Undaunted Courage. If I see any thing of value I'll pass it on. You seemed a little taken back by each person carrying half a tent and then hooking them together. We did that in the Army and that was not even ten years ago. Since so much of the way the army still does things goes back to those days, I would not be surprised if that were the case. Anyhow, thanks for all the other research you shared in the letter. It was good stuff and fun to read. And to those of you who put me on to WoodenHawk for leather, thanks! His prices are great, and I look foreward to doing some dealings with him. If any one else wants to try him out, he's at: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/WoodenHawk/tradingco.html">Woodenhawk's Buckskinning Supplies</A> Have a great day, and watch your top knots! John F. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 15:13:06 PST From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery I think you will find that the Corps of Discovery had one air rifle which Lewis used mainly to entertain and amaze Indians, although it was apparantly capable of killing. Ambrose mentions it often in Undaunted Courage. However, one should be careful when using this book (which is a great read, by the way) as a reference.. Consider this passage from chapter fifteen, page 177, regarding his blackpowder rifle. "Lewis always had his rifle primed, with the bullet, wadding, and powder charge set in place, so that when he saw a target he had only to set his espontoon vertically on the ground, measure out the powder for the pan, swing his rifle up to the rest, slip in his flint, bring the hammer to full cock, aim and fire. If the target was within a hundred yards and bigger than a mouse, he usually got it." (according to Ambrose an espontoon was a sort of pike, about six feet in length, with a wooden shaft and metal blade with a crosswise attachment at shoulder height that served as a rifle rest.) I don't know about everybody else, but most of the folks I shoot with will "slip in his flint" somewhat more in advance of pulling down on a target. Lanney Ratcliff - ---------- > Well Rick I am a student of the Corp of Discovery also and have several > books on the subject but I have a memory problem. Where!!! I have read > and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where > I read it I don't remember. Sorry, I'll run across it and tell the list > because it will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone on the list can > remember. Later Jon Towns > > ---------- > : From: Rick Williams <ERWillia@admrec.byu.edu> > : To: hist_text@xmission.com; hist_text@xmission.com > : Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery > : Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 2:58 PM > : > : Hail the list! > : > : I've had an interest to determine which arms the Corp of Discovery > : used beside the pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. My personna is that of a > : non-military member of the Corp. Probably one of the so called > : Kentucky "nine." > : ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:44:08 -0500 From: "Cliff " <cliffb@litenet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery - ---------- From: JON P TOWNS <AMM944@prodigy.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 11:46 AM Well Rick I am a student of the Corp of Discovery also and have several books on the subject but I have a memory problem. Where!!! I have read and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where I read it I don't remember. Sorry, I'll run across it and tell the list because it will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone on the list can remember. Later Jon Towns There was a reference in the Lewis and Clark journals about using the air rifles on several occasions. I beleive it was to impress the natives. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:31:58 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery In a message dated 98-01-31 14:23:32 EST, you write: << Where!!! I have read and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where I read it I don't remember. >> They had 1 air rifle -- one of Lewis' "toys". It's mentioned numerous times in their journals -- Specificaly on Fri, Jan 24, 1806. NM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:33:57 -0500 From: "C Davis" <cdavis@magicnet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2F0D.AAFE1320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is definitely listed in the inventory of items in Undaunted Courage. = Unfortunately, I( don't have the book anymore so I can't give you a page = number. I do remember that Lewis used it to impress some Natives along = the route. - -Craig - -----Original Message----- From: JON P TOWNS <AMM944@prodigy.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 2:23 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery =20 =20 Well Rick I am a student of the Corp of Discovery also and have = several books on the subject but I have a memory problem. Where!!! I = have read and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 = cal) but where I read it I don't remember. Sorry, I'll run across it = and tell the list because it will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone = on the list can remember. Later Jon Towns=20 =20 ---------- : From: Rick Williams <ERWillia@admrec.byu.edu> : To: hist_text@xmission.com; hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery : Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 2:58 PM :=20 : Hail the list! :=20 : I've had an interest to determine which arms the Corp of Discovery = : used beside the pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. My personna is that of a = : non-military member of the Corp. Probably one of the so called=20 : Kentucky "nine." :=20 =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2F0D.AAFE1320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>It is definitely listed in the = inventory of=20 items in Undaunted Courage. Unfortunately, I( don't have the book = anymore=20 so I can't give you a page number. I do remember that Lewis used = it to=20 impress some Natives along the route.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Craig</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"> <DIV>-----Original = Message----- From:=20 JON P TOWNS <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:AMM944@prodigy.net">AMM944@prodigy.net</A>> To: = <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Saturday, January 31, 1998 2:23 PM Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Other guns of the Corp of Discovery </DIV> Well Rick I am a = student of the=20 Corp of Discovery also and have several books on the subject but I = have a=20 memory problem. Where!!! I have read and know for a fact = that=20 the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where I read it I = don't=20 remember. Sorry, I'll run across it and tell the list = because it=20 will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone on the list can = remember.=20 Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: Rick Williams = <<FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff>ERWillia@admrec.byu.edu> :=20 To: hist_text@xmission.com;=20 hist_text@xmission.com :=20 Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery : Date: = Friday,=20 January 30, 1998 2:58 PM : : Hail the list! : : I've = had an=20 interest to determine which arms the Corp of Discovery : used = beside the=20 pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. My personna is that of a : = non-military=20 member of the Corp. Probably one of the so called : = Kentucky=20 "nine." :=20 </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY>= </HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2F0D.AAFE1320-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:53:17 +0000 From: andersons@mcn.net (Norman Anderson) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Rick, I, too, am working on a character for Lewis and Clark. It seems that concrete information on their weapons is tough to find. However, there is a terrific Lewis and Clark web site at http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index.html compiled by Jay Rasmussen. In one of is sub directories is a section on the firearms of the expedition. That site is http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index.html. That site discusses what we know and gives references in Gary Moulton's Journals and in the work of Carl Russell (Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men). Regarding the Air Rifle, it still exists apparently and is in a museum at Virginia Military Institute. The web site which provides a photo is http://www.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html It is .36 caliber and could fire about 7 shots once it was pumped up. It may have been used to impress the Native Americans along the route, but in an accidental discharge, it nearly killed a woman on what can be considered the very first day of Lewis's journey (Moulton, vol. 2, page 65). >From what reading and research I've been able to do, the Harper's Ferry 1803 would be a good choice but other weapons were definitely in use. Clark reports shooting an Elk 4 times with no success because of his rifles small size. Charboneau carried an "elegant fusil", and from the number of birds the expedition killed, they must have had a number of smooth-bore weapons. Good luck in your research; what you offered in you posting was informative and impressive. Norman Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:58:12 EST From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery In a message dated 98-01-31 14:23:32 EST, you write: << know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) >> I could be wrong on this, but I believe that there was only one on the trip and that it was a personal possesion of Lewis. Longshot ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:46:46 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Rick Williams wrote: > Here's my problem--It is well documented that Lewis had delivered 15 > "short" rifles from the arsenal along with slings, cartouche boxes > etc; I can even find a receipt and payment for fifteen shooting bags > and powder horns, but I cannot find any documentation describing the > "other" rifles taken or their source. Rick >From the following book... Ross, A., (1956). The Fur Traders of the Far West. University of Oklahoma Press. He has a chapter on the weapons and illustrations of the following rifles that accompanied the Lewis and Clark Expedition. U.S. flintlock musket, 1795 "Elegant fusil" (P. Bond, London, 1776-1800) U.S. flintlock "Kentucky" rifle, contract of the 1790's U.S. flintlock rifle, 1803 Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:13:07 -0700 From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois Longtrail, I read the article some time ago and enjoyed it very much. It stimulated quite a bit of thinking. I'm not sure if it's possible to interpret another culture except through our own cultural values and beliefs, but interpreting the accounts of the Iroquois in the western fur trade through the culture of a Victorian European and then again through our present culture seem hazardous. The problem with trying to get a correct perspective on the Iroquois, Metis, and many other of the subcultures of the fur trade is that they didn't record their own journals so we can only see their history colored by the values and beliefs of another culture. The construct we envision of that period in history was captured and described in only one of the many languages spoken, and through only one of the many cultures whose people participated in the fur trade. That all leads me to wonder if they were indeed "naughty," or just not understood and interpreted as objectively as possible. Thanks, D.Tippets P.S. Is there a cold wind blowing down down the Mussleshell this February? - -----Original Message----- From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> To: hist_text@xmission.com <hist_text@xmission.com> Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 1:28 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois >Did an article a while back called "Those Naughty West Coast Iroquois" >if'n yer interested it can be read at: > > http://www.lib.uconn.edu/NativeTech/essays/wiroquois.html > Longtrail > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:08:38 -0800 From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2F55.90FF0680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This discussion has been one of the better ones . I noticed that one page said the barrel was 31 cal and the other was 36 cal I don't know where I thought it was 50 cal but I warned everyone that I had no memory. I knew that 50 cal was built by someone. I like the Lewis and Clark site it's a good one. later Jon T - ---------- : From: Norman Anderson <andersons@mcn.net> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery : Date: Sunday, February 01, 1998 5:53 AM : : Rick, : I, too, am working on a character for Lewis and Clark. It seems that : concrete information on their weapons is tough to find. However, there is : a terrific Lewis and Clark web site at : http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index.html : compiled by Jay Rasmussen. In one of is sub directories is a section on : the firearms of the expedition. That site is : http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index.html. : That site discusses what we know and gives references in Gary Moulton's : Journals and in the work of Carl Russell (Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the : Mountain Men). Regarding the Air Rifle, it still exists apparently and is : in a museum at Virginia Military Institute. The web site which provides a : photo is : http://www.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html : It is .36 caliber and could fire about 7 shots once it was pumped up. It : may have been used to impress the Native Americans along the route, but in : an accidental discharge, it nearly killed a woman on what can be considered : the very first day of Lewis's journey (Moulton, vol. 2, page 65). : : >From what reading and research I've been able to do, the Harper's Ferry : 1803 would be a good choice but other weapons were definitely in use. : Clark reports shooting an Elk 4 times with no success because of his rifles : small size. Charboneau carried an "elegant fusil", and from the number of : birds the expedition killed, they must have had a number of smooth-bore : weapons. : : Good luck in your research; what you offered in you posting was informative : and impressive. : : Norman Anderson - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2F55.90FF0680 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">This discussion has been one of the = better ones . I noticed that one page said the barrel was 31 cal = and the other was 36 cal I don't know where I thought it was 50 cal but = I warned everyone that I had no memory. I knew that 50 cal was = built by someone. I like the Lewis and Clark site it's a good one. = later Jon T ---------- : From: Norman Anderson = <andersons@mcn.net> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp = of Discovery : Date: Sunday, February 01, 1998 5:53 AM : : = Rick, : I, too, am working on a character for Lewis and Clark. = It seems that : concrete information on their weapons is tough = to find. However, there is : a terrific Lewis and Clark = web site at : http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index= .html : compiled by Jay Rasmussen. = In one of is sub directories is a section on : the firearms of = the expedition. That site is : = http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index= .html. : That site discusses what we = know and gives references in Gary Moulton's : Journals and in the = work of Carl Russell (Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the : Mountain = Men). Regarding the Air Rifle, it still exists apparently and = is : in a museum at Virginia Military Institute. The web site = which provides a : photo is : = http://www.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html : It is .36 caliber and could fire about 7 shots = once it was pumped up. It : may have been used to impress the = Native Americans along the route, but in : an accidental discharge, = it nearly killed a woman on what can be considered : the very first = day of Lewis's journey (Moulton, vol. 2, page 65). : : >From = what reading and research I've been able to do, the Harper's Ferry : = 1803 would be a good choice but other weapons were definitely in = use. : Clark reports shooting an Elk 4 times with no success because = of his rifles : small size. Charboneau carried an "elegant = fusil", and from the number of : birds the expedition killed, = they must have had a number of smooth-bore : weapons. : : Good = luck in your research; what you offered in you posting was = informative : and impressive. : : Norman Anderson </f= ont></body></html> - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2F55.90FF0680-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:47:33 EST From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mohawks/Hendrick In a message dated 98-01-27 01:23:14 EST,Ted Hart wrote that the address for the museum (5 Nations) was: << Ganondagon State Historical Site 1488 Victor-Holcomb Rd Victor, NY 14564 >> The center has expanded and has a new address it is: 7000 County Road 41, Victor NY 14564. Phone # 716-924-5848, Fax # 716-742-1732. The center is in the process of building/reconstructing a Long House on the property which I believe will be dedicated this coming summer. Your humble servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 08:21:11 -0600 From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: MtMan-List: parched corn Ok ye old corn parchers, what kind of corn do you parch? Do you dry sweet corn, use field corn, or grow the old kind of corn. Thanks much, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:24:08 -0700 From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois - -----Original Message----- From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> To: hist_text@xmission.com <hist_text@xmission.com> Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 9:32 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois >Hi again, I just tried accessing my article "Those Naughty West Coast >Iroquois at the site I mentioned yesterday and couldn't get it. >So I suggest you go to the main site > > http://www.lib.uconn.edu/NativeTech/NativeTech.html >Once there, choose "Essays and Articles". You should not have a problem >with doing it that way. Sorry for the mistake. Longtrail > >Thanks, I thoroughly explored the site a couple of months ago. Has anything new been added of late? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:52:42 -0700 From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BD2FAF.8ABD83A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - -----Original Message----- From: JON P TOWNS <AMM944@prodigy.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:06 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous =20 =20 Wasn't there only 19 deserters? =20 =20 Jon, Dean, Longtrail, et al: =20 I'm not sure where this going. I've been eagerly awaiting the = chance to read the Master's Thesis being written on the Iroquois role = rather than launch into my own research project. Until then, what I'm = passing on is just hearsay from the Fur Trade Symposium in Pinedale. =20 I believe what will be documented is that not just many of the = Northwest Company engagees hire out of Montreal were Northeastern = Indians or mixed bloods, but also many of the trappers hired out of St. = Louis were also French-speaking Indians and mixed bloods originally from = the Northeast. Last evening I explored some of the Metis geneology web = sites and found evidence of family connection to both the St. Louis and = New Orleans areas. In fact, it appears some think of the Cajuns as = southern Metis. As late as 1816, St. Louis was still considered by many = to be a French town with strong economic connections to Lower Canada. =20 Etieane Provoust's pre-1825 history is a good example of this = migration pattern for northeastern men seeking their fortunes and = adventure. I haven't seen any evidence that he was Metis, but his = hometown of Chambly is in the area where many of the Metis engagees of = the NWC came from. =20 On one of the Metis geneology sites one authority said that between = 1800 and 1850 all the Indians in the area had their identities recorded = with anglo names so ancesteries are fairly easy to trace back that far, = but not easy to trace beyond 1800. When you look at these Metis web = sites you see that there is tremendous effort being put into tracing = Metis bloodlines, apparently because documenting Indian ancestary in = Canada makes Metis eligable for native claims on land. =20 I'd bet a dram at Western Nationals that when the dust settles, = we'll find that many of the trappers hire in St. Louis had blood ties to = many of the men hired by the NWC in Montreal. ---------- : From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous : Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:04 AM :=20 : > I believe they have documented that almost half the trappers at = the 1824 : > rendezvous were Iroquois. Somebody speculated that a lot of = those were the : > trappers who defected from Peter Skene Ogden's Brigade. Long = before then the : > Northwest Company employed Iroquois as "hunters."=20 :=20 :=20 : I assume you mean the 1825 rendezvous. I'm a little skeptical = about 50% : Iroquois, would be interested to see the research. The majority = of the : men who : defected from Ogden were indeed Iroquois (many are named in = Kittson's : Journal), but this accounts for less than 25 percent. =20 : Ashley wrote: : "On the 1st day of july, all the men in my employ or with : whom I had any concern in the country, together with twenty-nine, = who had : recently withdrawn from the Hudson Bay company, making in all 120 = men, : were assembled in two camps near each other about 20 miles distant : from the place appointed by me as a general rendezvous" :=20 : Many men are named in Ashley's accounts. One could do some = geneology to : determine which were Iroquois, but they don't have obvious = Iroquois names : (except for the Ogden bunch). I think it would be difficult to = determine. :=20 :=20 : >=20 : > The following offer some evidence that Black Harris may have = been one whose : > roots went back to Iroquois along the St. Lawerence: Alfred = Jacob Miller : > depicted him as very dark complected and with sparse facial = hair. Miller : > also recorded him wearing a hunting-hood hat of the type that = has it's : > origens among the Indian's of the Northeast. Black was a common = Iroquois : > name. He is closely associated with many of the French-named = trappers. : >=20 : =20 : There's a biography of Harris in Hafen's Mountain Men series: : Harris, Moses "Black", by Jerome Peltier, vol IV pg. 103-117 : I haven't had a chance to look it up, but I bet that will shed = some light. :=20 : -Dean =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BD2FAF.8ABD83A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"> <DIV>-----Original = Message----- From:=20 JON P TOWNS <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:AMM944@prodigy.net">AMM944@prodigy.net</A>> To: = <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Monday, January 26, 1998 9:06 PM Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous </DIV> Wasn't there only 19=20 deserters? Jon, Dean, Longtrail, = et=20 al: I'm not sure where = this=20 going. I've been eagerly awaiting the chance to read the = Master's=20 Thesis being written on the Iroquois role rather than launch into my = own=20 research project. Until then, what I'm passing on is just = hearsay from=20 the Fur Trade Symposium in Pinedale. I believe what will = be documented=20 is that not just many of the Northwest Company engagees hire out of = Montreal=20 were Northeastern Indians or mixed bloods, but also many of the = trappers=20 hired out of St. Louis were also French-speaking Indians and mixed = bloods=20 originally from the Northeast. Last evening I explored some of = the=20 Metis geneology web sites and found evidence of family connection to = both=20 the St. Louis and New Orleans areas. In fact, it appears some = think of=20 the Cajuns as southern Metis. As late as 1816, St. Louis was still=20 considered by many to be a French town with strong economic = connections to=20 Lower Canada. Etieane=20 Provoust's pre-1825 history is a good example of this migration = pattern for=20 northeastern men seeking their fortunes and adventure. I = haven't seen=20 any evidence that he was Metis, but his hometown of Chambly is in = the area=20 where many of the Metis engagees of the NWC came from. On one of the Metis = geneology sites=20 one authority said that between 1800 and 1850 all the Indians in the = area=20 had their identities recorded with anglo names so ancesteries are = fairly=20 easy to trace back that far, but not easy to trace beyond = 1800. When=20 you look at these Metis web sites you see that there is tremendous = effort=20 being put into tracing Metis bloodlines, apparently because = documenting=20 Indian ancestary in Canada makes Metis eligable for native claims on = land. I'd bet a dram at = Western Nationals=20 that when the dust settles, we'll find that many of the trappers = hire in St.=20 Louis had blood ties to many of the men hired by the NWC in=20 Montreal. ---------- : From: Dean Rudy <<A=20 href=3D"mailto:drudy@xmission.com">drudy@xmission.com</A><FONT=20 color=3D#000000>> : To: <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission">hist_text@lists.xmission</A>.com= <FONT=20 color=3D#000000> : Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 = rendezvous :=20 Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:04 AM : : > I believe = they have=20 documented that almost half the trappers at the 1824 : > = rendezvous=20 were Iroquois. Somebody speculated that a lot of those were = the :=20 > trappers who defected from Peter Skene Ogden's Brigade. Long = before=20 then the : > Northwest Company employed Iroquois as=20 "hunters." : : : I assume you mean the 1825=20 rendezvous. I'm a little skeptical about 50% : Iroquois, = would be=20 interested to see the research. The majority of the : men = who :=20 defected from Ogden were indeed Iroquois (many are named in = Kittson's :=20 Journal), but this accounts for less than 25 percent. : = Ashley=20 wrote: : "On the 1st day of july, all the men in my employ = or=20 with : whom I had any concern in the country, together with = twenty-nine,=20 who had : recently withdrawn from the Hudson Bay company, making = in all=20 120 men, : were assembled in two camps near each other about 20 = miles=20 distant : from the place appointed by me as a general=20 rendezvous" : : Many men are named in Ashley's accounts. = One could do some geneology to : determine which were = Iroquois, but=20 they don't have obvious Iroquois names : (except for the Ogden = bunch).=20 I think it would be difficult to determine. : : : = >=20 : > The following offer some evidence that Black Harris may = have been=20 one whose : > roots went back to Iroquois along the St. = Lawerence:=20 Alfred Jacob Miller : > depicted him as very dark = complected and=20 with sparse facial hair. Miller : > also recorded him = wearing a=20 hunting-hood hat of the type that has it's : > origens among = the=20 Indian's of the Northeast. Black was a common Iroquois : = > name.=20 He is closely associated with many of the French-named = trappers. :=20 > : : There's a biography of Harris in Hafen's = Mountain Men=20 series: : Harris, Moses "Black", by Jerome Peltier, vol = IV pg.=20 103-117 : I haven't had a chance to look it up, but I bet that = will shed=20 some light. : :=20 - -Dean </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></H= TML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BD2FAF.8ABD83A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:00:15 -0700 From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Dean, Is Kittson's journal on the website? Dave P.S. Made an Indian efigy hood yesterday; my wife laughed hysterically and said it is the stranges thing I've ever made. She calls it my batman hat. I'm starting to see why they fell out of fashion. The experimental archeology business is full of risks -- ridicule being one of them. - -----Original Message----- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:53 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous >At 07:00 PM 1/26/98 -0800, Jon Towns wrote: >>>>> > > > Wasn't there only 19 deserters? > > ---------- > > > >Well, good question. Gen Ashley himself said there were 29, so I won't argue with him. But could be he was referring to all the ex-HBC men, and not just those who deserted on the Weber that spring. HBC clerk William Kittson kept a detailed journal, as did Ogden. (http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/kitjrl.html) > >Kittson names the following individuals as deserting between May 24 - 30, 1825. The edition of his journal I have stops on June 1; there could have been more desertions later in the season. > >The names with an asterik were probably Iroquois. > >Alexander Carson >Charles Duford >Martin Miaquin* >Pierre Tevaiiitagon* >Jaques Osteaceroko* >Ignace Deohdiouwassere* >Ignace Hatchiorauquasha (or Grey)* >Laurent Karahouton* >Baptise Sawenrego* >Lazard Kayenquaretcha* >Joseph Perreault >Louis Kanota >Montour >Antoine Clement >Annance >Prudhomme >Sansfacon* >Theery Goddin >J. Bte. Gervais >Fras. Sasanare* >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com >Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html > > ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #12 ****************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. 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