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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #5 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, January 17 1998 Volume 01 : Number 005 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:51:10 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Telling Time > Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> carelessly wrote: > >To be exactly precise, you'd need a sexton, On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Angela Gottfred mischievously wrote: > I think you meant sextant? I wouldn't want to drag a sexton around after me! Well now, Miss Angela, that depends on what kinda mischief your up to now, doesn't it! <BG> Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Website http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:38:13 -0500 From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gone to the ALAFIA RONNYVOUS!!! - --------------F518C075907136CA9BDE1860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Alafia is the LARGEST rendezvous in the Southeastern United States. Makes the NMLRA Southeastern look like a little weekend event. There are usually around 600 camps and God knows how many people? It is held in the Plant City area of Florida which is near Tampa for you folks from out of state or West of Disney World in Orlando. Sometimes it has been referred to as the Largest Buckskin Flea Market in the world. All time periods attend......1550 to 1990..(if you include the Modern Powwow Indian dressed). But it is one hell of a party....Don't want to miss it. Linda Holley - --------------F518C075907136CA9BDE1860 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML> The Alafia is the LARGEST rendezvous in the Southeastern United States. Makes the NMLRA Southeastern look like a <FONT SIZE=-2>little</FONT> weekend event. There are usually around 600 camps and God knows how many people? It is held in the Plant City area of Florida which is near Tampa for you folks from out of state or West of Disney World in Orlando. Sometimes it has been referred to as the Largest Buckskin Flea Market in the world. All time periods attend......1550 to 1990..(if you include the Modern Powwow Indian dressed). <BR>But it is one hell of a party....Don't want to miss it. <P>Linda Holley</HTML> - --------------F518C075907136CA9BDE1860-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:34:12 EST From: Hawker Amm <HawkerAmm@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gunsmithing Another solution if your sight is in a dovetail is to remove the sight then carefully peen down the front and back edges of the dovetail on the barrel. Do this with care and don't try to get it real tight at one time. Keep peening and try fitting until the front sight fits in snugly and tight. Good luck. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1998 17:38:25 -0700 From: "Pat Quilter" <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Celestial Navigation. Celestial Navigation. The "time" issue has veered into celestial navigation, or "where the heck am I?". As noted by Angela and Lee, one's latitude (north or south position on the earth) is relatively easy to obtain, by measuring the angle of the north star to the horizon. Since the sun travels a predicable path in the sky (even though the apparent height varies with season) with the use of tables and a "noon sighting" (measuring the sun several times around estimated noon and determining its highest position) you could establish your latitude, using a sextant (an instrument to measure the angle between an object and the horizon). Actual practices involved more tricks (such as the artificial horizon noted) to compensate for inability to see the true "flat" horizon. Determining your longitude (how far east or west we are) would be simple IF we knew what time it was at a standard reference longitude (normally taken to be the Royal Observatory at Greenwich, England). We need only measure the difference in time between high noon at Greenwich and our local noon (using the same repeated noon sightings taken above) to determine how many time zones around the earth we are. Of course, before radio time signals, there were very limited ways to determine the time at Greenwich while travelling. The ultimate method, of course, required accurate chronometers; a good 1815 British Navy captain sailed with three of them and kept accurate records of their relative drift, and noted their offset upon returning to Greenwich. Lewis and Clark did not succeed in keeping a chronometer going continuously while travelling, but, "Undaunted Courage" describes Lewis's process of taking "lunars" to determine the true time. The moon is constantly eclipsing various stars, which events are regular and can be put in tables. When the moon passes in front of star x, the Greenwich time is exactly ___. If you set even an average-quality watch to this time, it will still be close enough for a noon sighting the next day. The positions of Jupiter's four moons was another celestial clock. All of these events, of course, occur at inconvenient intervals, and cloud cover was the bane of surveyors. Lewis was stuck for a week at his most northern excursion trying to get a sighting in the hopes of pushing the US-Canada border above 49 degrees of latitude. Using these methods, I believe most of Lewis and Clark's positions were within 30 miles of their true position, but as noted, this could be a deadly degree of error for a sailing ship. Pat Quilter AMM 1658 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:02:20 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: 6th Annual Iowa Territorial Historical Festival For Everyone's Info.... also posted on my webpage at http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Wapello County Conservation Board <co90conserv@lisco.net> 6th Annual Iowa Territorial Historical Festival August 14th - 16th, 1998 Ottumwa, Iowa. The event is held 6 miles north of Bloomfield, Iowa. Also 6 miles South of Ottumwa, IA on hwy. 63 S. The event is located at the Pioneer Ridge Nature Area home to 737 acres of Prairie and Oak-Hickory timber. This is a time line event running from 1750's-1870's with two seperate camps running at the same time. Civil War on one side of the park seperated by Oak-Hickoy timber. Long hunters & Natives and Buckskinners will be located on the other side of the timber. The activities are as followes: two battle skirmishes a day, with a tactial on Sunday, fashion show, living history activities and lectures and an evening candle light tour. We will also have the normal Black Powder shoot, Hawk and Knife and other activities to numerous to mention. For more information please contact: Kelly Schott, 1339 Hwy 63 S. Bloomfield, IA - 52537 515-682-3091 or fax 683-4621 E-mail co90conserv@lisco.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:08:30 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt I know, it's not rendezvous period, but those of us who do muzzleloaders sometimes tend to have bp revolvers, too. I have an 1860 Colt Army (repro) that I need to disassemble to do some surgery on it's innards (needs a new hand-and-spring). The two screws behind the trigger holding the trigger guard in place won't come out. I've tried penetrating oil, and all that does is make my screwdriver slip. I am not using gunsmithing screwdrivers, which might be part of the problem. I also know that the guy the gun came from didn't seem to take care of it. I could only pop three of the nipples. Anyway, I need a solution. Do I need to take it to a gunsmith or is there something else I can try at home? I don't want to strip the screw heads, so for now I am resolved to leave it until I get some help from those well versed in bp revolver gunsmithing. Any suggestions? Thanks, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:52:17 EST From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Cabela's BP & Cleaning solution Thanks for the E-mail, Gary. I should point out that I finish with hot soap and water every time I clean my guns. I have had no rust problems, but my guns have never been cleaner. I'll be keeping an even closer eye on the bores though! John. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:12:52 EST From: J2HEARTS <J2HEARTS@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Henry, Sometimes stuck screws can be loosened by using a plastic handled screwdriver. !. The bit of the screwdriver must closly fit the slot in the screw. 2.Secure the gun appropriately in a padded vise. 3. Put screwdriver in screw slot and, lightly at first, rap the plastic end of the screwdriver with a mallet of light weight hammer. 4. Try the screw. If on luck, try again rapping the screwedriver but a little harder. Good luck John Funk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:33:21 -0600 From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gift answers Washtahay- Nauga Mok, I gotta differ with a couple points of your explanation- At 02:02 AM 1/15/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-14 00:49:08 EST, you write: >< Also what's a damacus steel? > >> > >True Damascus steel is no longer available. Well, actually, it is. Commonly sold as wootz. If you can call a commodity like that "common". >What we have today is more >properly termed as "pattern welded steel". Yep. But this was also probably the most common early steel. True damascus steel was apparently made by packing small pieces of wrought iron in a carbon bearing material, then sealing in some type of container (probably clay). The container was placed in a fire and heated til the container was (probably, depending on the account) red hot, and held at that temp for some period of time. The container was then removed from the fire and quenched. Now you had high carbon steel, and if you did it right you had carbide particles scattered evenly thoughout the steel (in addition to the regular carbon). More below. >Way back when steel was something >new, it was made from "bog iron" that was smelted in crude clay furnaces fired >with charcoal or wood which became charcoal as the process progressed. Don't know about this part, am to young to remember. I do know that bog iron is still available, just not in the large quantities that are necessary to be commercially viable. >bog iron had a lot of imourities that could be removed by hammering. When you >hammer a piece of iron, it gets thinner, so to retain the thickness, it was >folded, the fold welded shut (again by hammering at high heat), the resulting >piece was again hammered thin, folded, wedled, & hammered thin again until the >impurities were all removed. This is the early refinement process, and one reason why people were so impressed by the magic of early ironworkers. The previous metals used-bronze, copper, etc-were all worked in a very different manner, the people didn't understand what was going on. There is one school of thought that says the Arthurian legend of the sword in the stone is a remnant of a legend of the arrival of iron working. >This resulted in the first steels & the method >was practiced in the area of the old city Damascus -- hence the name. Due to >the many layers that were welded together, it had a pattern as the layers >could be seen. What is now called "wootz" has a pattern like pinpoints of white in the grey of the steel. Pattern weld could be perhaps best compared to wood grain. >Usualy there were several hundred layers -- if memory serves, >in the neighbourhood of around 500 to 1000. Or 3 or 30,000-or just lines where several wires or rods were twisted together to make the stock (the twisted rods or wires was a technique that appears to have found favor among the Vikings and other Scandinavian peoples). >The main reason I say true >Damascus is no longer available is the ore used back then is depleted, & other >iron ores do not have the same properties. Modern renditions of "Damascus >steel" starts with 2 (or more) modern steels of different carbon content such >as 1010 & 1095. Of the blade makers I know, most use a high carbon steel and wrought iron from various salvage sources, or bought new from some suppliers. >The carbon content is what makes steel get hard in the >hardening & tempering process. In numbered steels "10XX", the 10 means it's >pure refined iron with no alloying additives. Steel is, for all practical >purposes, iron with the impurities removed. By definition, steel is iron with the addition of carbon. >The "XX" numbers in the 1000 >series steels indicates carbon content. Basicaly steel with less than 4% >carbon (1040) is considered unhardenable though with proper treatment & Nauga Mok, I think this is a typo-isn't 1040 steel steel with .40% carbon? I think if you heated a piece of 40% carbon metal in an open forge it would give off one heck of a fireworks show! >handling 1040 CAN be hardend to a certain extent. Back to our 1010 & 1095 >steels -- these two bars of steel are forge welded together with the >traditional method of high heat & hammering. From this point the method >developed way back at the birth of steel is repeted -- hammer, fold, weld, >hammer, fold, weld. When the desired (note the word "desired") number of >layers are reached, the resulting billet can be formed into a knife, ax, or >whatever tool desired -- usualy knives are made of this labor intensive >product. This method has several advantages over making a knife out of a bar >of 1095 steel. Due to the low carbon layers within the billet, it is >extremely tough & resistant to breakage because it supports the hard high >carbon layers, Some claim the resulting edge acts as a saw when cutting. I have had the opportunity to examine a nunber of makers' pattern welded steel under an eloctron microscope. The edge of most pattern welded steel looks like several razor blades held side by side. It is a great edge for cutting meat, not so good for bone or wood-it clogs. The wire or cable pattern welded steel is different. It looks like semi-circular cutting edges set side by side, with more space between where one ends and the next begins. It seems to be more aggressive in cutting tissue, and not dull as quickly when cutting hides with the hair still on (as in skinning). The only wootz sample I have seen under an electron microscope looked like black inclusions of sand in plaster of paris. I really hope those descriptions make sense, because if you can visualize them, it will help you to understand how each cuts. A regular knife blade looks like a razor blade scraped across a piece of coarse sandstone-the scratches form teeth, and they do the actual cutting. >most odvious reason for making a knive this way is becaust it's a beautiful >piece of work when the layers are manipulated to form patterns, then acid >etched. Some blade smiths use nickel instead of the low carbon steel or add a >thin layer of nickel every 25 folds to accentuate the pattern. I have a blade a friend gave me that is high carbon steel and nickel. Beautiful... >There are >several blacksmiths & bladesmiths making "damascus" or "pattern welded" >steels. There's a knife catalog that comes out of Georgia (I think -- Atlanta >Cutlery???) that sometimes has blanks & billets for sale at a fairly >reasonable price. From what I have seen, the pattern welded steel from Atlanta Cutlery and Damascus USA seems to lack some of the character of hand made steel. The pattern is too 'even' for want of a better word. It also seems to have a lower carbon content than steel available from some of the custom makers, so it might not hold an edge as well as the steel in a custom knife. On those rare occasions when I have wanted to put the work into making a pattern welded knife, I have used O1 steel and wrought iron. It has always proven satisfactory for all uses to which I put a working knife. For my 3.5" working knife, I average 3 deer dressed and skinned before I have to touch up the edge. I have done some experimenting with the small scale production of wootz, starting with bog iron. It is a really cool steel, a real pleasure to use as a knife. But it is too time, labor, and cost intensive for me. As a friend says, "It has a high value density". And frankly, I am just not into it enough to do it. I figure the 5" wootz blade I have took several hundred hours of research and experimentation, probably 200 hours of actual work to make the blade from the iron, and cost probably $300 in fuel, clay, iron, and burn ointment. And it is still not perfect. LongWalker c. du B. PS When doing the rondyvoo thing, I usually carry a common butcher knife. I've never seen any reference to pattern welded steel or wootz steel in the old records! LW ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:27:59 -0800 From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: 1860 BPR Henry Crawford wanted to know about removing stuck screws: Henry, using the right screwdriver is always a plus in gunsmithing. In this case using heat from a torch is out of the question as it would ruin what finnish you have on the weapon. I've had 75% success on removing tight screws by placing the screwdriver straight on the head of the screw and then using a wood mallet, strike the end of the screwdriver with a couple of medium raps. This will often loosen tight gun screws without doing damage to them, kinda like tapping a tight lid on a jar with the butt end of a butter knife to get it open. Penetrating oils sorry to say, just don't work all the time, but they are a good thing to start with. If ALL else fails go ahead and take it to a local gunsmith and let him do it, at least if he messes it up.....he's the one who'll have to replace them! Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:25:28 EST From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt In a message dated 98-01-16 11:50:08 EST, you write: > Anyway, I need a solution. Do I need > to take it to a gunsmith or is there something else I can try at home? I > don't want to strip the screw heads, so for now I am resolved to leave it > until I get some help from those well versed in bp revolver gunsmithing. Henry, Go to an auto parts store and pick up a couple of cans of a product called PB Blaster. It is not a penetrating oil, it is a rust solvent. Strip the gun to its basic components, put it in a pan, and cover with the PB. Let it set for a week. You should be able to remove the screws as well as the nipples, I run an auto repair shop. This is the greatest stuff since safety pins. OldFox ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:13:56 -0600 From: "Michael Branson" <mikebransn@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Howdy Henry There are lots of unsaid things that could help decide how to care for that revolver. Like... is the mainspring still attached? Have you revmoved the wooden grips? Usually the gripps should come off and then the mainspring should come next. Is the gun dirty or clean? If dirty, I would soak the revolver in very hot water for quite awhile before I tried to reomve those screws. I would also remove the grips and mainspring before the hot water. Then I would attempt to remove the trigger guard. After which I would remove the small spring just below the trigger guard. Then the rest should just screw right out. Of course there are other methods. M. Branson - ---------- > From: Henry B. Crawford <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt > Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 9:08 AM > > I know, it's not rendezvous period, but those of us who do muzzleloaders > sometimes tend to have bp revolvers, too. > > I have an 1860 Colt Army (repro) that I need to disassemble to do some > surgery on it's innards (needs a new hand-and-spring). The two screws > behind the trigger holding the trigger guard in place won't come out. I've > tried penetrating oil, and all that does is make my screwdriver slip. I am > not using gunsmithing screwdrivers, which might be part of the problem. I > also know that the guy the gun came from didn't seem to take care of it. I > could only pop three of the nipples. Anyway, I need a solution. Do I need > to take it to a gunsmith or is there something else I can try at home? I > don't want to strip the screw heads, so for now I am resolved to leave it > until I get some help from those well versed in bp revolver gunsmithing. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:16:41 EST From: Nauga Mok <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Damascus, steels, & stuff In a message dated 98-01-15 19:13:45 EST, you write: << the URL for Atlanta Cutlery is... http://www.atlantacutlery.com/ >> Thanks! I was hoping I'd remembered right. I've never tried any of their pattern welded blanks, so can't atest to the quality. I'd asume it's ok since they've had it in & out of stock, which means it's a good selling item & their supplier evidently can't keep up with their demand. I forgot to mention most pattern welded blanks or billets are now made by machine or with a power hammer to keep costs down. Using power or "trip" hammers IS a period method - -- Collins Ax Co was using water powered hammers in the late 1820's. They're the only Co I have documentation on, (so far) but I'm sure they weren't the only ones since the doccumentation doesn't mention developing the hammers which would have been a big thing. It'd probably carried their names like the Blanchard lathe carried it's developer's name. There's a LOT of beautiful pattern welded knives being made now. Someone mentioned Damascus being tempered in blood -- there was a whole bunch of different "witches' brews" used for hardning steel besides the still used oil & water quinches. Some contained blood & stale horse urine to mention a couple of the more unusual "secret ingredients". The same results can be atained with a salt water brine although the protein content in the blood may have possibly increased the carbon content on the surface by a few hundredths of a percent -- not enough to realy matter. What mattered more was the skill of the smith doing the hardning & tempering. I sometimes chuckle at some of the Hollywood versions of hardning steel -- like in "Conan the Barbarian," a sword was plunged into a snow bank -- wrong! Good steel would have shattered! The casting of the sword was pure fantasy for that time period -- it would have been a Damascus type construction because quantities of steel large enough to make a sword were nearly impossible to make at that time. Then too, when cast, there were no sparks, so possibly they used brass for the illustration. Or in Moby Dick -- the older version with Gregory Peck -- the harpoon was quinched in blood from the crew -- a possibility, but the visual effects were a bit much. Some of you may have heard that old rifle builders would wrap the frizen in leather & burn it to harden the frizen. That's partialy true. If the frizen was made of wrought iron, which had nearly all the carbon removed (again by hammering), carbon had to be added back into the iron to convert it to a steel that would harden. One method that was widely used was what was known as "crucible steel". They put a portion of iron, or the iron part (frizen in this case) inside a ceramic "pot" with a lid. They usualy wrapped the part they wanted to harden with leather or used charred bone, charcoal, or charred leather or a combination of these carbon sources to fill the pot. Then the lid was sealed with clay & the pot was put into the fire in the forge. The pot had to be maintained at orange to white hot for a minimum of 18 hrs -- preferably more, to "cook in" the carbon. The critical part was when the part was "done" & the pot allowed to cool. Any air (oxygen) reaching the part while at white heat would cause the carbon to oxidize rapidly (burn) & ruin the part. The easiest way was to bury the pot in a hot fire in the forge & allow the fire to burn out. We can now do the same process in under a hour with the use of a casehardening agent like Casenite. Crucible steels are still made & used primarily in tools -- Collins axes are made of crucible steel. There was another way used to get the frizen face hard enough to spark. That entailed facing it with a thin piece of an old file. Once the steel from the file was shaped & fitted to the frizen, it was "speltered" in place. "Speltering" is the period term for "brazing", but it was done in the forge. As has been pointed out numerous times here, our forefathers wasted nothing! Speltering used brass filings mixed in a flux, or the parts were fluxed & brass filings were sprinkled onto the flux while still molten. I've tried both ways & both ways work. As a matter of fact, I was "steeling" a frizen when I first tried these old processes. One thing to keep in mind if you try this -- you must reduce the thickness of the frizen by the thickness of what you're going to add back as the new steel face & you must allow a few thousandths of an inch for the spelter or you'll wreck the timing of the lock. You can use this method to referbish older locks that don't have replacement frizens available or parts from Siler or L&L won't fit. NM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:57:35 EST From: Nauga Mok <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gift answers In a message dated 98-01-17 00:22:32 EST, you write: << Well, actually, it is. Commonly sold as wootz. If you can call a commodity like that "common". Wouldn't call it "common" cuz I wasn't aware of it being made. < True damascus steel was apparently made by packing small pieces of wrought iron in a carbon bearing material, then sealing in some type of container (probably clay). Excelent description of "crucible steel". From my sources, Damascus was hammered & folded, not "cooked". < Don't know about this part, am to young to remember. So am I, but -- now you're gonna make me look it up aren't ya! You can visit a charcoal fired furnace in Southern Missouri at Meramec State Park near Sullivan. Foxfire #5 has an excelent article on making iron this way -- they referbished a furnace & actualy fired it for 1 run. Both of these "cold blast" furnaces (the one at Meramec & the one in the book) were in production during the Civil War. If memory serves, the Meramec furnace was first fired in the 1820's & the Cooper Furnace in 1837. This volume also describes "bloomerys" -- a prior method of smelting iron in open furnaces -- Bloomeries had slipped my mind. Bloomeries were the main production furnaces at the time of the Rev War. It also has some good stuff on early NMLRA days, Jim Chambers & Hirschel House before they were old enough to shave -- least ways, their pictures look that way. I'll have to dig a bit more for the "furnaces" used in the Damascus era. < I do know that bog iron is still available, just not in the large quantities that are necessary to be commercially viable. Where? Would like to play with some! < This is the early refinement process, and one reason why people were so impressed by the magic of early ironworkers. Even in it's more refined methods of our time period, the Native Americans were awed by "the rock that could only be worked by another like rock" < There is one school of thought that says the Arthurian legend of the sword in the stone is a remnant of a legend of the arrival of iron working. I've read that some where too. < Or 3 or 30,000-or just lines where several wires or rods were twisted together to make the stock (the twisted rods or wires was a technique that appears to have found favor among the Vikings and other Scandinavian peoples). As well as the Japanese -- Samuri swords were made this way too. They were the ones who used the 5,000 - 20,000 layers. The more layers, the thiner & more invisable the lines between the layers. In modern pattern welding, they usualy quit at around 500 because more than that & there is a problem with carbon migration from the high carbon element to it's low carbon copartner. < Of the blade makers I know, most use a high carbon steel and wrought iron from various salvage sources, or bought new from some suppliers. That works -- I uses the 1010 as an example. < By definition, steel is iron with the addition of carbon. Strange -- one of the problems with wedlability of cast iron is due to it's high carbon content. < Nauga Mok, I think this is a typo-isn't 1040 steel steel with .40% carbon? Yep! Even as I had it at 4%, that's too high -- missed the decimal. Thanks for catching that. < I have had the opportunity to examine a nunber of makers' pattern welded steel under an eloctron microscope. The edge of most pattern welded steel looks like several razor blades held side by side. It is a great edge for cutting meat, not so good for bone or wood-it clogs. The wire or cable pattern welded steel is different. It looks like semi-circular cutting edges set side by side, with more space between where one ends and the next begins. I'd noticed if I kept my pattern welded blade clean, it cut better. This explains it. I was going to mention that some makers use cable & it makes a good pattern welded blade. It should! The "IPS" designation on some rope stands for "Improved Plow Steel" There some times are one of 2 "X's" in front of the IPS indicating "Extra Improved" or "Extra Extra Improved" which indicate tougher alloys. Though I haven't played with it, I'd think the IPS (without the XX's) would work best for knives. One thing nice about cable, you can write the manufacturer (if known) & find out exactly what kind of steel was used -- especialy in certified rope. ALL elevators are supposed to use certified rope as well as cranes rigged for "critical" picks -- the users of such rope MUST maintain the records --"certs", so it's easy to track. At work, even our "chokers" have to have certs. < I really hope those descriptions make sense, because if you can visualize them, it will help you to understand how each cuts. Yep! I can visualize it. The wootz must look like a fresh break in nodular cast 'cept it has more "spots". < I have a blade a friend gave me that is high carbon steel and nickel. Beautiful... I've seen some that had the steel darkened so the nickle stood out silver against black/dark grey -- realy pretty. < From what I have seen, the pattern welded steel from Atlanta Cutlery and Damascus USA seems to lack some of the character of hand made steel. The pattern is too 'even' for want of a better word. It also seems to have a lower carbon content than steel available from some of the custom makers, so it might not hold an edge as well as the steel in a custom knife. I was going to try some sometime, but we have a local producer that makes some nice stuff. Sounds like they just weld the flat bars & don't do much layer manipulation. Have you seen the book "Complete Bladesmith" by -- uh-oh I can't spell his last name -- starts with a "H" -- first name Jim -- can't find my copy either. Atlanta Cutlery had some of his work 1 time only. He's into medieval swords primarily but wrote 2 books on bladesmithing I've seen that are excelent -- I have (had) one of them. Ah -- Found it!! Jim Hrisoulas -- ISBN 0-87364-430-1. < On those rare occasions when I have wanted to put the work into making a pattern welded knife, I have used O1 steel and wrought iron. It has always proven satisfactory for all uses to which I put a working knife. That aughta work fine. O1 is excelent knife material. I've always wanted to use wrought iron & 1095, but have problems finding the wrought iron. When I DO find it, I generaly wind up using it before the mood strikes to make a knife 'cuz it welds so much easier than A36. < I have done some experimenting with the small scale production of wootz, starting with bog iron. It is a really cool steel, a real pleasure to use as a knife. But it is too time, labor, and cost intensive for me. As a friend says, "It has a high value density". And frankly, I am just not into it enough to do it. I figure the 5" wootz blade I have took several hundred hours of research and experimentation, probably 200 hours of actual work to make the blade from the iron, and cost probably $300 in fuel, clay, iron, and burn ointment. And it is still not perfect. Think I mentioned the phrase "labor intensive"! I don't have a power hammer, so I have to do it the hard way. That must have been a fun expirament! Probably a lot of "AW $HI+s!" involved too huh? < PS When doing the rondyvoo thing, I usually carry a common butcher knife. I've never seen any reference to pattern welded steel or wootz steel in the old records! My sentiments too. I feel a Damascus blade would have been too expensive for the "common trapper" (that description fits my persona) to carry -- especialy when they had access to the GR's fairly cheaply at rondy. I don't recall seeing where any Damascus blades have been recovered in any of the Western archaelogical digs either. If I was to use a hand forged blade at rondy, it'd be one made from a file. Some day, I gotta keep one of my creations, but I'm usualy so backlogged, I don't get the chance. NM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:38:18 -0600 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt At 09:08 AM 1/16/98 -0600, Henry wrote: > >I have an 1860 Colt Army (repro) that I need to disassemble > Henry, First and foremost the screwdriver MUST fit. Buy old ones of good quality at flea markets and file the blade to fit the job; precisely. Or buy a first class set from Brownells; Chapman makes quality sets in the good old USofA. Though heat can be useful a torch, as another mentioned, is not generally suitable for use on a revolver. Two alternatives: 1. An alcohol blow torch (like the big old plumber type, only in miniature) can be used with care and a pin point blue flame. 2. A large soldering copper can be cherried and the tip held to the center of the head of the screw, usually it's best to work with three coppers so maximum heat can be transmitted through rotation until the screw is hot enough to break the bond. Don't burn your fingers. Heat doesn't always work. If you really muck things up there's always drills and easy outs and taps and helicoils and new screws. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:37:48 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt >Howdy Henry There are lots of unsaid things that could help decide how to >care for that revolver. Like... is the mainspring still attached? Have you >revmoved the wooden grips? Usually the gripps should come off and then the >mainspring should come next. I stripped it down as far as it could go. I planned to completely disassemble the piece and clean each part before I replaced the hand-and-spring. That's when I got stuck at the trigger guard. Is the gun dirty or clean? If dirty, I would >soak the revolver in very hot water for quite awhile before I tried to >reomve those screws. boiled water? How long? HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:04:27 -0700 (MST) From: Clay Landry <Landry@wtp.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names This is a subject that I have been wanting to bring up for sometime and this snowy day affords me some extra indoor time so here goes; Osborne Russell describes the nick names of several mountaineers in a passage from his book-"Journal of a Trapper", page 39. He tells of the camp keeper "art" of cooking "poor bull" by beating it with a club and says "He then drops his club and draws his butcher knife calling to his comrades "Come Major, Judge, Squire, Dollar, Pike, Cotton, and Gabe wont you take lunch of Simon?" The editor of Russell's book, Aubrey Haines, tells us in a foot note that by these nicknames Russell is refering to Joe Meek as "Major", George Ebberts as "Squire", Cotton Mansfield as "Cotton", and James Bridger as "Gabe". Haines also thinks that "Judge" may have been Russell's nick name. Else where in his book, page 70, Russell also tells of the Indians' name for Bridger being "Blanket Chief". Leroy Hafen, Tom Fitzpatrick's biographer, wrote that "information gathered form William Sublette's letters of January 30, February 9,27, and 29, 1836...give credence to the account of the adventurous trip on which Fitzpatrick suffered the accident that caused the crippling of his hand-the accident that induced the Indians later to give him the name "Broken Hand"(sometimes rendered "Bad Hand" or "Three Fingers")." page 150 "Broken Hand" by Leroy Hafen. I have also read some where that Capt Bonneville was refered to as "Bald Chief" by the Indians. While there seems to be good evidence that some fur brigade Captains and leaders had Indian styled names such as "Broken Hand" and "Blanket Chief" it does not appear that the other white trappers referred to them by these handles. Russell's list of nick names for some rather prominent beaver trappers seems to indicate that the trappers called Bridger "Gabe" and not "Blanket Chief". Also "NONE" of Russell's comrades nick names seem to have Indian styled origins. No where in the literature of the Rocky Mountain fur trade can I find a historical precident or inference for trappers hanging Indian styled names on one another. Yet our present day Rendezvous camps and buckskiner events abound with gents and ladies calling themselves such poetic Indian sounding names as "Grey Feather, Two Grouse, Soaring Eagle, Dancing Bear, Wolf Howl, Dead Horse, Spotted Horse, Snake Eyes, and on ad-infinitum!! My question is "How and where did this get started?" Does this process of adopting a "Indian camp name" have something to do with our "alter egos" or some parallel life?? Maybe this "naming process" does have an historical basis-does anyone know??? Clay Landry P.O. 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