home
***
CD-ROM
|
disk
|
FTP
|
other
***
search
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
pub
/
lists
/
hist_text
/
archive
/
hist_text.9812
< prev
next >
Wrap
Internet Message Format
|
1998-12-31
|
851KB
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Designing and constructing replica clothing,
Date: 30 Nov 1998 01:13:04 -0600
Andrea,
I have been reading your postings with interest and have a few questions for
you -- you said you'd been researching old ways of sewing. How about we pick
your brain a little?
Given; many folks made what they knew with the skills they had and they may
have created some crude garments. Not everything or everyone would have had
the same limited set of skills. Clothes were manufactured (by hand) and
traded. Some were more skilled than others. Some may have apprenticed as
tailors.
What were the methods and materials of bindings, interfacing and linings
common
to the early nineteenth century? What was the range (and method) of sizes in
finished goods intended for trade?
What types, colors and twists of thread were most common? What styles of
seams and stitching were used for the various garments and areas of garments?
Were French fell seams used or were they a development that came after the
sewing machine? What were common seam allowances to protect from
unraveling of
fabrics? Did they vary by fabric?
One might presume that there would be a greater variety of threads and
materials in the settlements where the made goods were fabricated than were
available on the frontier for self made goods. Have you encountered any
information along these lines?
John...
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wooden barrels
Date: 30 Nov 1998 05:54:43 -0800
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_01BE1C25.ED3B3280
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
A brother of mine in the AMM makes Barrels His name is Boyd Phillips Phone
number is 360-692-6643 give him a ring. Later Jon T
------=_NextPart_000_01BE1C25.ED3B3280
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">A brother of mine in the AMM makes =
Barrels His name is Boyd Phillips Phone number is 360-692-6643 give him =
a ring. Later Jon T</p>
</font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BE1C25.ED3B3280--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: flint or cap?
Date: 30 Nov 1998 08:59:00 +0100
There has been some recent discussion about who
would use cap guns and why. One vital
consideration that has to come into such a
discussion is : When? If you're talking about
Lewis & Clark or the Astorians or Lisa's
expetidions or Ashley's enterprising young men,
then there was only one option.
Knowing when cap locks were "invented" really
doesn't help a whole lot because the real issue is
what was available to the person in the field. As
far as American Fur Company records go, the first
kpercussion caps do not appear on their
inventories until the mid to late 1830s. Wyeth's
diary records his gunsmith converting guns from
flint to cap in the mid 30s. He also complains
about his hunters using "miserable flint guns"
which they continually blame for misfires (which
they used as excuses for coming back to camp
empty-handed). At the same time, the Indian
people clearly used flint guns which were new
manufacture even up into the 1870s.
I've also found a lack of clear information among
period journalists as to what kind of gun anyone
was carrying, and what kind of ignition it had.
Once in a long while someone will mention checking
their priming, giving an indication of a flint
gun.
So, cap guns do not seem to have been much
available in the field in the West until maybe the
later 1830s, and there was always the problem of
getting caps.
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Brown Bess (was: howdy)
Date: 30 Nov 1998 09:35:51 -0700
After the War of 1812, about 100 soldiers from the disbanded British de
Meuron regiment were hired in 1816 by the Earl of Selkirk. They were hired
to travel to the settlement he was co-sponsoring with the HBC on the Red
River (at modern-day Winnipeg, Manitoba). They brought their Brown Bess
muskets with them. Some of the men took jobs with the HBC and went to
outlying fur posts. After a major flood on the Red River in 1826 (?), a
flood which was about twice the size of the Red River Flood a couple of
years ago, almost all the Selkirk Settlers, including the de Meurons, fled
to the U.S. (Fort Snelling, if I recall correctly). There are also records
of the HBC men using bayonets on their guns around 1821 as hostilities with
the North West Company escalated, suggesting to me that the HBC may have
been bringing in army surplus Brown Besses for defence.
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
agottfre@telusplanet.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Reinactments
Date: 30 Nov 1998 15:29:04 EST
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--part0_912457745_boundary
Content-ID: <0_912457745@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
To all of you living in Washington state, here is a fellow looking for some
local clubs/folks to help him get started. So for all of you that wrote
earlier that you would be willing to help an flatlander get started here is
your chance.
Please reply to him at his E-mail address @aol.com as he is not on the mail
list.
--part0_912457745_boundary
Content-ID: <0_912457745@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline
Return-path: <GodsPuppet@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hello,
I am searching the internet and happened to run across your name from an
email you wrote concerning a rifle. You mentioned you and your wife are
involved in reenactments. I would love to get involved in them but have no
clue who to contact in my area. I live in Washington State. If you could help
me I sure would appreciate it.
Thanks
Joe
--part0_912457745_boundary--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 30 Nov 1998 20:09:04 -0800
Hi Andrea,
As for myself, I sew my shirts and usually purchase such items as trousers, socks
and kerchiefs. Hope that helps.
Best regards,
Terry Smith
Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:
> . . . just curious, do the majority of present day MtMen sew or purchase your
> replica MtMan clothing? Which pieces, specifically, do you sew and/or
> regularly purchase?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
> Amoore2120@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Apology and MtMan shirts
Date: 01 Dec 1998 18:40:06 EST
=09I reread my previous post on custom made clothing and to my utter horro=
r I
noticed, as you probably did, that it almost borders on well, rash. I wan=
t to
say that I am sorry as it was never my intention to appear so intent or ha=
rsh
and come across in any such manner=97I would sooner die than offend anybod=
y. I
hope I can get myself out of the dog house one day as I cannot go back and
erase it. Maybe I can try to make up (do you think this might work)? for =
it
by offering cloth MtMan shirt construction/instructions, which, if done
correctly, should start with a discussion of the rectangular shirt from wh=
ich
all other shirts evolved.
=09From the pictures I have seen, the majority of early and present day Mt=
Man
cloth shirts (please correct me here if I am misinformed as I want to lear=
n)
are very simple in design, reflecting the first woven "tops" that were mad=
e
entirely from rectangular pieces with no consideration for body curves. T=
he
shirt consists of a long rectangle of fabric with a hole in the middle for=
the
head, two small rectangles of fabric for the arms and side seams that stit=
ch
it all together in straight seams. The construction is simple with the
center-cut hole for the head and the rectangles attached on each side for =
the
arms (folding them in half along the shoulders) and stitching the sides
together by hand using a running stitch.
=09Shirts started out=97as did most garments in the days before easy acces=
s to
scissors=97as big rectangles of fabric. The rectangular shirt=92s side se=
ams were
simply the selvages of the fabric (selvage is the tightly woven boarder fo=
und
on all woven goods). The selvages are butted together and hand-stitched.
Such seam lines can tend to be somewhat fragile requiring side-seam
reinforcements. It is standard practice to add a reinforcing gusset to ta=
ke
any strain before the seam rips and to allow for more freedom of movement.
=09This is all the time I have for now, more soon on actual construction. =
I
hope some of you will find this information useful.
Sincerely,
Andrea Moore
=09=09
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Wm. Ashley images
Date: 02 Dec 1998 13:57:27 -0600 (CST)
Is anyone aware of any images of William Ashley, where they are published,
and what library or museum collections they might be found, if any?
Thanks
HBC
*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford Curator of History
mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442 Box 43191
FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191
WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
****** Living History . . . Because it's there! *******
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Campsite
Date: 02 Dec 1998 22:19:44 -0600
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BE1E41.DD2EEC60
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Check out the Dec. 1998 issue of Popular Science magazine for a short =
article describing the discovery of what is believed to be a Lewis & =
Clark campsite. Ken Karsmizki, an archaelogist from Montana State =
University's Museum of the Rockies, located Lewis & Clark's Lower =
Portage Camp on private land near Great Falls, Montana. Artifacts were =
found beneath 4 to 7 inches of soil and include an iron pushpin, a gun =
flint, a wooden stake and bison bones with hatchet marks. Radiocarbon =
dating places the organic items at the proper time period. A magnetic =
survey of the area turned up three fire pits, including one that bears =
marks that are thought to be those of the three feet of an iron camp =
kettle. The fire pits were spaced at 50 foot intervals in a straight =
line in accordance with army regulations of the time. (Don't forget that =
this was a military expedition) The camp was situated on a terrace =
above the Missouri which afforded a clear view up and down the river (or =
down and up the river if you think upstream is the other way) and anyone =
approaching from land could be seen across an open prairie. Funding for =
the archaeology was provided by Kampgrounds of America....who would have =
thunk it?!
See what happen when someone teaches a kid to read?
YMOS
Lanney
------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BE1E41.DD2EEC60
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Check out the Dec. 1998 issue of =
Popular Science=20
magazine for a short article describing the discovery of what is =
believed to be=20
a Lewis & Clark campsite. Ken Karsmizki, an archaelogist from =
Montana=20
State University's Museum of the Rockies, located Lewis & Clark's =
Lower=20
Portage Camp on private land near Great Falls, Montana. Artifacts =
were=20
found beneath 4 to 7 inches of soil and include an iron pushpin, a gun =
flint, a=20
wooden stake and bison bones with hatchet marks. Radiocarbon =
dating places=20
the organic items at the proper time period. A magnetic survey of =
the area=20
turned up three fire pits, including one that bears marks that are =
thought to be=20
those of the three feet of an iron camp kettle. The fire pits were =
spaced=20
at 50 foot intervals in a straight line in accordance with army =
regulations of=20
the time. (Don't forget that this was a military expedition) =
The=20
camp was situated on a terrace above the Missouri which afforded a clear =
view up=20
and down the river (or down and up the river if you think upstream is =
the other=20
way) and anyone approaching from land could be seen across an open=20
prairie. Funding for the archaeology was provided by Kampgrounds =
of=20
America....who would have thunk it?!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>See what happen when someone teaches =
a kid to=20
read?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Lanney</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BE1E41.DD2EEC60--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "David Stahelski" <Stahelski@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: concerning 1800's pants
Date: 03 Dec 1998 11:18:16 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1EAE.9FAB50A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To whom it may concern,
Sturbridge village employees gave me your e-mail address as a possible =
lead in my search for someone who makes 17th Century styled pants.If you =
are able to be of any service please send a catalogue to;F Power 27 =
Enrico road Bolton CT 06043=20
thankyou,
Flora.
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1EAE.9FAB50A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>To whom it may concern,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sturbridge village employees gave me your e-mail =
address as a=20
possible lead in my search for someone who makes 17th Century styled =
pants.If=20
you are able to be of any service please send a catalogue to;F Power 27 =
Enrico=20
road Bolton CT 06043 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>thankyou,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Flora.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1EAE.9FAB50A0--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jennifer & Bill Lynch <jlynch@bcm.tmc.edu>
Subject: MtMan-List: smoothies
Date: 03 Dec 1998 17:43:04 +0000
buck,
thank ya for the reply. the information is much appreciated. i was able
to trade my "long land pattern" musket (brown bess) for a custom made 20
gauge "northwest trade gun". with it's 42" barrel and queen anne lock it
may be more of a fowler accordin to some. but by gum it's got a premium
curly maple stock, antiqued barrel, serpentine side plate, oversized
trigger guard and was made with american pride.
http://www.moad.com/jbrown/
a question i have on this'n is i had the gunsmith install sling
brackets which include a button sling pin on the butt. the only info i
have on this option is the track catolog which states this is "a later
style" sling option. was wonderin' if y'all had any info on that? one
more question i might trouble ya with for the sake of historical
philanderin'. i like my mocs as much as the next child, but sometimes
when conditions demand i wear my brogans. i have been told they are
"period" (pre 1840) but i'm wonderin' how far back the "period" for them
goes?
thank ye kindly
bill lynch
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Casapy123@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wm. Ashley images
Date: 04 Dec 1998 22:43:21 EST
"William Ashley, Enterprise and Politics in the Trans-Mississippi West," by
Richard M. Clokey, published by University of Oklahoma Press in Norman, OK, in
1980 conatains a picture of Elizabeth Moss Wilcox Ashley. The caption states
it is "the only surviving portrait of a member of the Ashley family." (p.
260.) One would think if a picture was available, it would have showed up in
this book unless it has been uncovered between 1980 and the present.
Jim Hardee, AMM #1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA 95971
(530)283-4566 (H)
(530)283-3330 (W)
(530)283-5171 FAX
Casapy123@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Picking my brain . . . clothing
Date: 04 Dec 1998 17:11:59 EST
In a message dated 12/3/98 8:48:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kramer@kramerize.com writes:
<< What were the methods and materials of bindings, interfacing and linings
common
to the early nineteenth century? What was the range (and method) of sizes in
finished goods intended for trade?
What types, colors and twists of thread were most common? What styles of
seams and stitching were used for the various garments and areas of garments?
Were French fell seams used or were they a development that came after the
sewing machine? What were common seam allowances to protect from
unraveling of
fabrics? Did they vary by fabric? >>
Dear John and others,
I am happy to answer your questions: regarding bindings, were very narrow,
finishing at less than 1/4 inch but not quite an eighth. They were cut on the
straight grain of the fabric as bias would have wasted too much fabric.
No interfacings were used however many pieces, especially those of silk were
underlined with a brownish polished cotton.
Both linen and silk thread was in use, the former was more common and the
latter more expensive. The colors were mostly vegetable or animal dyed, so
there were no colors not commonly found in nature. In fact, one shade of
green was poisonous and women were cautioned not to moisten it in their mouths
because they could become ill or worse!
Running stitch, back stitch, and herringbone stitch were commonly used, the
French seam was rare. The seams were tiny, it would make you tired just to
look at them! The raw edges were roll-hemmed by hand and then the seams
whipped together.
I am sorry I do not have the time right now to elaborate but I hope this will
help you for now. More soon on MtMan cloth shirt construction, fabrics and
techniques that are easy to learn and do.
Sincerely,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
Amoroe2120@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Introduction and large new brain tanning website.
Date: 04 Dec 1998 13:04:06 -0700
Hey y'all,
I just joined this list and wanted to say hi. I've been a brain tanner by
trade for the past 10 yrs and recently have been building a large website at
www.braintan.com that has over 100 pages and growing, of info and resources,
including articles (some historical), tutorials, a newsletter, online forum,
as well as sources for tools, classes, books and videos.
So a couple of things. If any of you brain tan, and either sell finished
hides or garments, or teach classes....let me know so we can add you to the
resource directory.
Also if any of you have any brain tan oriented questions, fire away. Besides
doing a lot of tanning, I've also researched over 100 accounts of Native
tanning written by early explorers and ethnographers...and the evidence is
much different than the common assumptions of what was going on. There is a
seven page online article at www.braintan.com/articles/bbhtitle.html that is
particularly about this.
I haven't however found practically any accounts of how early mountain men
went about their tanning. If any of you know of any, I'd love to hear about
it.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
2755 Sinclair Creek Rd
Eureka MT 59917
406-889-5532
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TetonTod@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Introduction and large new brain tanning website.
Date: 04 Dec 1998 23:27:26 EST
Matt,
Welcome to the list. You will be a welcome addition with your extensive
knowledge of braintanning. I bought a copy of your book from Chris Mcpherson
and it has been invaluable. Good to have you aboard.
Todd Glover
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: roll-hemmed?
Date: 05 Dec 1998 16:22:28 -0600
> The raw edges were roll-hemmed by
>hand and then the seams whipped together.
Andrea, Please explain "roll-hemmed",how is it done etc.? I think I
understand the whipped together part well enough,but then got lost with
roll-hemmed.
Thanks,
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Traphand@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: smoothies
Date: 05 Dec 1998 19:36:38 EST
about the sling holders on the trade gun ,the button in the rear i was not to
wild about
after hearing about the leather slipping off the button.i took a small
carriage bolt sawed the head off ,drilled a small hold into the carriage bolt
to hold the sling holder ,drilled a small hole about a inch behind the guard
in the stock and screwed the bolt into the stock.are you can get ahold of me
at traphand@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw:
Date: 06 Dec 1998 20:38:33 -0600
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE2158.6473C560
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello the camp,
It has been a common problem for me to encounter a word in an old =
journal or a shipping manifest from the early nineteenth century and not =
be sure of its meaning. Sometimes, not a clue. To help clear the fog a =
little I recently purchased a CD containing Noah Webster's 1828 =
Dictionary. The dictionary was originally published in two volumes and =
I hope it proves to be a valuable addition to my "library". I got it =
from CTI (Christian Technologies, Inc) at http://www.christiantech.com =
or at info@christiantech.com or call them at 800-366-8320. The price =
is $34.95 including shipping.
If anyone needs an occasional word looked up, contact me and I will try =
to find it. Not long ago somebody asked if anyone knew what a certain =
critter was that was listed on a list of furs that some trapper had =
sold....sounded like a cat of some sort. Does anyone remember what that =
critter was called? I'll look for it in ol' Noah's dictionary and post =
the results, if any.=20
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
rat@htcomp.net
=20
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE2158.6473C560
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR><BR> </DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello the camp,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It has been a common problem for me to encounter a =
word in an=20
old journal or a shipping manifest from the early nineteenth century and =
not be=20
sure of its meaning. Sometimes, not a clue. To help clear =
the fog a=20
little I recently purchased a CD containing Noah Webster's 1828=20
Dictionary. The dictionary was originally published in two volumes =
and I=20
hope it proves to be a valuable addition to my =
"library". I got=20
it from CTI (Christian Technologies, Inc) at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.christiantech.com">http://www.christiantech.com</A> =
or at <A=20
href=3D"mailto:info@christiantech.com">info@christiantech.com</A> =
or call=20
them at 800-366-8320. The price is $34.95 including =
shipping.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If anyone needs an occasional word looked up, =
contact me and I=20
will try to find it. Not long ago somebody asked if anyone knew =
what a=20
certain critter was that was listed on a list of furs that some trapper =
had=20
sold....sounded like a cat of some sort. Does anyone remember what =
that=20
critter was called? I'll look for it in ol' Noah's dictionary and =
post the=20
results, if any. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Lanney Ratcliff</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:rat@htcomp.net">rat@htcomp.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE2158.6473C560--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Addison Miller" <sean@naplesnet.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: concerning 1800's pants
Date: 06 Dec 1998 19:25:57 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01BE214E.3FC392E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The best for this is Heritage Clothiers... Rick Haven used to work for =
Williamsburg doing clothing. Their name and address are:
Rick and Susan Haven
Heritage Clothiers
HC1 - Box 386
Crescent City, FL 32112
I have been buying clothes from them for years.... They just moved to =
Florida and don't have a phone as yet. Drop them a line...
Addison Miller
-----Original Message-----
From: David Stahelski <Stahelski@worldnet.att.net>
To: hist_text@xmission.com <hist_text@xmission.com>
Date: Thursday, December 03, 1998 11:55 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: concerning 1800's pants
=20
=20
To whom it may concern,
Sturbridge village employees gave me your e-mail address as a =
possible lead in my search for someone who makes 17th Century styled =
pants.If you are able to be of any service please send a catalogue to;F =
Power 27 Enrico road Bolton CT 06043=20
thankyou,
Flora.
------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01BE214E.3FC392E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Dutf-8 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The best for this is Heritage =
Clothiers... Rick=20
Haven used to work for Williamsburg doing clothing. Their name and =
address=20
are:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rick and Susan Haven</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Heritage Clothiers</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>HC1 - Box 386</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Crescent City, FL 32112</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have been buying clothes from them for years.... =
They just=20
moved to Florida and don't have a phone as yet. Drop them a=20
line...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Addison Miller</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>David Stahelski <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:Stahelski@worldnet.att.net">Stahelski@worldnet.att.net</A>=
><BR><B>To:=20
</B><A =
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@xmission.com">hist_text@xmission.com</A>=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@xmission.com">hist_text@xmission.com</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
</B>Thursday, December 03, 1998 11:55 PM<BR><B>Subject: =
</B>MtMan-List:=20
concerning 1800's pants<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>To whom it may =
concern,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sturbridge village employees gave me your e-mail =
address=20
as a possible lead in my search for someone who makes 17th Century =
styled=20
pants.If you are able to be of any service please send a catalogue =
to;F=20
Power 27 Enrico road Bolton CT 06043 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>thankyou,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Flora.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01BE214E.3FC392E0--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Terry Venden <tvenden@etex.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: concerning 1800's pants
Date: 06 Dec 1998 20:21:09 -0600
--------------F75EECB07BABB0C930137E28
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I make pre-1800 clothing. Pants, breeches,dresses, vest, shirts and also
leather garments. Please visit my web site
http://www.geocities.com/~2wolvestrading/
If you know what you want, I'll make it for you. Please feel free to
e-mail or call.
Thanks
Doe Eyes
David Stahelski wrote:
> To whom it may concern,Sturbridge village employees gave me your
> e-mail address as a possible lead in my search for someone who makes
> 17th Century styled pants.If you are able to be of any service please
> send a catalogue to;F Power 27 Enrico road Bolton CT
> 06043thankyou,Flora.
--------------F75EECB07BABB0C930137E28
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
I make pre-1800 clothing. Pants, breeches,dresses, vest, shirts and also
leather garments. Please visit my web site <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/~2wolvestrading/">http://www.geocities.com/~2wolvestrading/</A>
<BR>If you know what you want, I'll make it for you. Please feel
free to e-mail or call.
<BR>Thanks
<BR>Doe Eyes
<BR>
<HR WIDTH="100%">
<BR>David Stahelski wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>To whom
it may concern,</FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>Sturbridge village employees
gave me your e-mail address as a possible lead in my search for someone
who makes 17th Century styled pants.If you are able to be of any service
please send a catalogue to;F Power 27 Enrico road Bolton CT 06043</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>thankyou,</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>Flora.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>
--------------F75EECB07BABB0C930137E28--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!]
Date: 06 Dec 1998 11:17:06 -0800
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Dear Friends and etc.
Back in Jan. my "Hairy Lizard" buddy Louie Lewis invited me to come hunt in a N.
Idaho M/L Elk hunt this Nov. In anticipation I bought and built in Oct. a "Mark
Silver" rifle in .62 cal. flint from Jim Chambers. I got it sighted in with a good
load of 3fff under a .60 round ball and on the 19th of Nov. set off for the
Clearwater Nat. Forest in Idaho.
> For the next two weeks we hunted hard. It rained most every day with a couple of
> days of light snow that didn't stick well. We would get up at 0530 and hunt until
> 10, then come back to camp and have breakfast. We went out again until dark. I
> usually was in my bedroll by 2000. Louie go
> a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at a cow in a
> group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours of trying
> to figure which set of tracks were hers. Cliff Nole of N. Idaho got his elk a
> week into the hunt. There were 5 white tails brought into camp by others in the
> party, even a few grouse.
>
> We came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had dinner with
> Louies friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then went back up on
>
> the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few days and
> Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more days but
> had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go out. Just
> stayed under cove. Two of his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry and his dad
> and mom, Bill and Noreen
> stayed up but were gona have to leave Friday. I figured I'd stay as long as
> there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky.
> Over the two weeks I got real close to several white tail and got the shit scared
> out of me by grouse going ballistic at my feet a number of times. There were
> several moose in the
> area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I saw a few
> elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but long canyon
> shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking for a
> place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just about ready
> to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about 10' decided
> to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and aimed at the
> next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to miss that
> one spot I could have shot.
>
> On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the little valley
> and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's side of the
> ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She moved and
> I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just long enough
> to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked back out to the end of the skid road and
> crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I had come up
> until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about half way to
> camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any fresh tracks
> came back down to the next spur going east and started around that road as it
> went around another little ridge.
>
> As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old log deck
> with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge of the
> grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break on the far
> side of the little valley. I froze where I was and within moments a big cow elk
> walked out of the
> "Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that it was 112
> long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment. I figured
> I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from "Chambers" , off
> hand,
> and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just behind the
> shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about a half
> dozen shots to re-clean the gun, this rifle never failed to go off and with
> almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with a gentle
> squeeze the ball was on its way.
>
> The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I reloaded as I
> watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I walked slowly
> to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought I heard a
> quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The tracks went
> to the right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the left as they
> entered the "Christmas Trees". No blood and no hair! At the first couple of fir
> trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on both
> trees! I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not turn out bad
> and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost vertical and as
> I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing tree limbs
> and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+ degrees of
> slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and there she
> was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs tucked under
> the body. Thank You! says I. Out came the knife and after the obligatory letting
> of my own blood to mingle with her's I took care of opening up the body cavity
> and by
> that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp.
>
> We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and back to
> camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer. The .60 round
> ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both lungs, and
> going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I got a
> garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to help so
> will close for now. I remain most greatfull and humble............
YMOSCapt. Lahti'
>
>
>
--------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Message-ID: <366AC097.F585B324@gte.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
"birchbark@sprintmail.com" <birchbark@sprintmail.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.19981127190902.007e97b0@proaxis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tom, Mike, et,al.
Got back about non on Sat. Dead tired and with 1400+ messages on this machine!
Louie and I got a shot at a big cow Elk two sundays back and while I was
reloading, he ran ahead and using his swivel .62 flinter shot at her again. He
apparently hit her and we found blood. The first shot we took at the same
moment but it was a long way out and I was using 90 gr. I don't think we hit
her. His second shot brought blood but not much and by the time she went to the
top of the hill, she got into so many other tracks that we couldn't pick her
out. We looked for quit a while and then ran into Cliff Nole and another friend
and went on. It rained most every day with a couple of days of light snow that
didn't stick well. I had a Honda 4 wheeler to ride out on each day if I wanted.
We would get up at 0530 and hunt until 10, then come back to camp and have
breakfast. We went out again until dark. I usually was in bed by 2000. Louie go
a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at a cow in a
group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours of trying
to figure which set of tracks were hers.
I came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had dinner with
his friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then went back up on
the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few days and
Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more days but
had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go out. Two of
his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry and his dad and mom, Bill and Noreen
stayed up but were gona have to leave Thursday. I figured I'd stay as long as
there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky. Over the two weeks I got
real close to several white tail and got the shit scared out of me by grouse
going ballistic at my feet a number of times. There were several moose in the
area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I saw a few
elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but long canyon
shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking for a
place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just about ready
to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about 10' decided
to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and aimed at the
next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to miss that
one spot I could have shot.
On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the little valley
and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's side of the
ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She moved and
I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just long enough
to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked out to the end of the skid road and
crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I had come up
until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about half way to
camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any fresh tracks
came back down to the next spur going east and started around that road as it
went around another little ridge.
As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old log deck
with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge of the
grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break on the far
side. I froze where I was and within moments a big cow elk walked out of the
"Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that it was 112
long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment. I figured
I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from "Chambers" off hand
and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just behind the
shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about a half
dozen shots to re-clean the gun, This rifle never failed to go off and with
almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with a gentle
squeeze the ball was on its way.
The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I reloaded and
watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I walked slowly
to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought I heard a
quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The tracks went
right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the left as they
entered the "Christmas Trees". NO blood and no hair! At the first couple of fir
trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on both
limbs. I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not turn out bad
and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost vertical and as
I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing tree limbs
and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+ degrees of
slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and there she
was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs tucked under
the body. Thank You! says I. I took care of opening up the body cavity and by
that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp.
We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and back to
camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer. The .60 round
ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both lungs, and
going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I got a
garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to help so
will close for now.
Talk at you both later,
Your buddy Rog'
--------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!]
Date: 06 Dec 1998 21:37:23 -0600
Not bad, Capt., not bad. Some folks know how to have a good time better
than others. I envy you the experience.
YMOS
Lanney
ps: The big pot you made for me (you know the one) continues to garner rave
reviews. Having such a unique piece of equipment is very satisfying.
Thanks again.
-----Original Message-----
<EdSeaton@aol.com>; hist_text@lists.xmission.com
<hist_text@lists.xmission.com>; Jeffery Lahti <jdlahti@msn.com>; Joe Ford
<joeford@wsu.edu>; Mike Duncanson <mduncans@orednet.org>; Petrie, Ronald C
<PetrieRC@manilwpob.us-state.gov>; RLINDSEY@webtv.net <RLINDSEY@webtv.net>;
ThisOldFox <mlml@vnet.net>
>
>
>
>
>> Dear Friends and etc.
>
>Back in Jan. my "Hairy Lizard" buddy Louie Lewis invited me to come hunt in
a N.
>Idaho M/L Elk hunt this Nov. In anticipation I bought and built in Oct. a
"Mark
>Silver" rifle in .62 cal. flint from Jim Chambers. I got it sighted in with
a good
>load of 3fff under a .60 round ball and on the 19th of Nov. set off for the
>Clearwater Nat. Forest in Idaho.
>
>> For the next two weeks we hunted hard. It rained most every day with a
couple of
>> days of light snow that didn't stick well. We would get up at 0530 and
hunt until
>> 10, then come back to camp and have breakfast. We went out again until
dark. I
>> usually was in my bedroll by 2000. Louie go
>> a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at a cow
in a
>> group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours of
trying
>> to figure which set of tracks were hers. Cliff Nole of N. Idaho got his
elk a
>> week into the hunt. There were 5 white tails brought into camp by others
in the
>> party, even a few grouse.
>>
>> We came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had dinner
with
>> Louies friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then went
back up on
>>
>> the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few days
and
>> Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more days
but
>> had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go out.
Just
>> stayed under cove. Two of his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry and
his dad
>> and mom, Bill and Noreen
>> stayed up but were gona have to leave Friday. I figured I'd stay as long
as
>> there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky.
>
>> Over the two weeks I got real close to several white tail and got the
shit scared
>> out of me by grouse going ballistic at my feet a number of times. There
were
>> several moose in the
>> area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I saw a
few
>> elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but long
canyon
>> shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking for
a
>> place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just about
ready
>> to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about 10'
decided
>> to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and aimed
at the
>> next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to miss
that
>> one spot I could have shot.
>>
>> On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the little
valley
>> and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's side
of the
>> ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She
moved and
>> I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just long
enough
>> to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked back out to the end of the skid
road and
>> crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I had
come up
>> until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about half
way to
>> camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any fresh
tracks
>> came back down to the next spur going east and started around that road
as it
>> went around another little ridge.
>>
>> As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old log
deck
>> with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge of the
>> grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break on
the far
>> side of the little valley. I froze where I was and within moments a big
cow elk
>> walked out of the
>> "Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that it was
112
>> long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment. I
figured
>> I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from "Chambers" ,
off
>> hand,
>> and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just behind
the
>> shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about a
half
>> dozen shots to re-clean the gun, this rifle never failed to go off and
with
>> almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with a
gentle
>> squeeze the ball was on its way.
>>
>> The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I reloaded
as I
>> watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I walked
slowly
>> to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought I
heard a
>> quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The tracks
went
>> to the right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the left
as they
>> entered the "Christmas Trees". No blood and no hair! At the first couple
of fir
>> trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on both
>> trees! I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not turn
out bad
>> and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost vertical
and as
>> I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing tree
limbs
>> and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+
degrees of
>> slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and there
she
>> was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs tucked
under
>> the body. Thank You! says I. Out came the knife and after the obligatory
letting
>> of my own blood to mingle with her's I took care of opening up the body
cavity
>> and by
>> that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp.
>>
>> We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and back
to
>> camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer. The .60
round
>> ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both
lungs, and
>> going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I got
a
>> garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to help
so
>> will close for now. I remain most greatfull and humble............
>
>YMOSCapt. Lahti'
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!]
Date: 06 Dec 1998 19:55:21 -0800
Lanney,
Thanks for the come back. Glad you are having fun with the pot. Yea, I had a
good time and hope others enjoyed sharing the experience with me. The wife and I
spent today cutting up two front and two rear legs and the freezer is damned
near full! I will start on the main part of the carcase tomorrow, neck, ribs,
loins, etc. Should be some fine eating for the better part of the year. I
remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Addison Miller" <sean@naplesnet.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!]
Date: 06 Dec 1998 22:59:02 -0500
Congrats, Capt'n!! Good shooting... Its always good to hear of someone
filling their tag and makin meat...
Addison Miller
-----Original Message-----
<EdSeaton@aol.com>; hist_text@lists.xmission.com
<hist_text@lists.xmission.com>; Jeffery Lahti <jdlahti@msn.com>; Joe Ford
<joeford@wsu.edu>; Mike Duncanson <mduncans@orednet.org>; Petrie, Ronald C
<PetrieRC@manilwpob.us-state.gov>; RLINDSEY@webtv.net <RLINDSEY@webtv.net>;
ThisOldFox <mlml@vnet.net>
>
>
>
>
>> Dear Friends and etc.
>
>Back in Jan. my "Hairy Lizard" buddy Louie Lewis invited me to come hunt in
a N.
>Idaho M/L Elk hunt this Nov. In anticipation I bought and built in Oct. a
"Mark
>Silver" rifle in .62 cal. flint from Jim Chambers. I got it sighted in with
a good
>load of 3fff under a .60 round ball and on the 19th of Nov. set off for the
>Clearwater Nat. Forest in Idaho.
>
>> For the next two weeks we hunted hard. It rained most every day with a
couple of
>> days of light snow that didn't stick well. We would get up at 0530 and
hunt until
>> 10, then come back to camp and have breakfast. We went out again until
dark. I
>> usually was in my bedroll by 2000. Louie go
>> a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at a cow
in a
>> group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours of
trying
>> to figure which set of tracks were hers. Cliff Nole of N. Idaho got his
elk a
>> week into the hunt. There were 5 white tails brought into camp by others
in the
>> party, even a few grouse.
>>
>> We came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had dinner
with
>> Louies friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then went
back up on
>>
>> the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few days
and
>> Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more days
but
>> had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go out.
Just
>> stayed under cove. Two of his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry and
his dad
>> and mom, Bill and Noreen
>> stayed up but were gona have to leave Friday. I figured I'd stay as long
as
>> there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky.
>
>> Over the two weeks I got real close to several white tail and got the
shit scared
>> out of me by grouse going ballistic at my feet a number of times. There
were
>> several moose in the
>> area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I saw a
few
>> elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but long
canyon
>> shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking for
a
>> place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just about
ready
>> to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about 10'
decided
>> to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and aimed
at the
>> next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to miss
that
>> one spot I could have shot.
>>
>> On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the little
valley
>> and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's side
of the
>> ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She
moved and
>> I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just long
enough
>> to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked back out to the end of the skid
road and
>> crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I had
come up
>> until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about half
way to
>> camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any fresh
tracks
>> came back down to the next spur going east and started around that road
as it
>> went around another little ridge.
>>
>> As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old log
deck
>> with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge of the
>> grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break on
the far
>> side of the little valley. I froze where I was and within moments a big
cow elk
>> walked out of the
>> "Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that it was
112
>> long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment. I
figured
>> I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from "Chambers" ,
off
>> hand,
>> and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just behind
the
>> shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about a
half
>> dozen shots to re-clean the gun, this rifle never failed to go off and
with
>> almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with a
gentle
>> squeeze the ball was on its way.
>>
>> The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I reloaded
as I
>> watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I walked
slowly
>> to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought I
heard a
>> quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The tracks
went
>> to the right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the left
as they
>> entered the "Christmas Trees". No blood and no hair! At the first couple
of fir
>> trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on both
>> trees! I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not turn
out bad
>> and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost vertical
and as
>> I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing tree
limbs
>> and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+
degrees of
>> slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and there
she
>> was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs tucked
under
>> the body. Thank You! says I. Out came the knife and after the obligatory
letting
>> of my own blood to mingle with her's I took care of opening up the body
cavity
>> and by
>> that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp.
>>
>> We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and back
to
>> camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer. The .60
round
>> ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both
lungs, and
>> going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I got
a
>> garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to help
so
>> will close for now. I remain most greatfull and humble............
>
>YMOSCapt. Lahti'
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!]
Date: 06 Dec 1998 23:09:04 -0500
Roger Lahti wrote:
>
> Lanney,
>
> Thanks for the come back. Glad you are having fun with the pot. Yea, I had a
> good time and hope others enjoyed sharing the experience with me. The wife and I
> spent today cutting up two front and two rear legs and the freezer is damned
> near full! I will start on the main part of the carcase tomorrow, neck, ribs,
> loins, etc. Should be some fine eating for the better part of the year. I
> remain....
Ahhhh.....and that's the best part! Elk is so good eating! 'Glad you
had a fine trip, and success!
Fred
--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!]
Date: 06 Dec 1998 20:07:38 -0800
Thanks Brother, spending two weeks in the mountains of N. Idaho hunting elk was
a tough job but some one had to do it and I am glad it was me. I remain.........
YMOS+dog tired
Capt. Lahti'
Addison Miller wrote:
> Congrats, Capt'n!! Good shooting... Its always good to hear of someone
> filling their tag and makin meat...
>
> Addison Miller
> -----
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!]
Date: 06 Dec 1998 20:15:30 -0800
Your right there Fred and it has been a bit of a dry spell. Thanks. I remain.....
Full of elk meat!
Fred A. Miller wrote:
> Roger Lahti wrote:
> >
> > Lanney,
> >
> > Thanks for the come back. Glad you are having fun with the pot. Yea, I had a
> > good time and hope others enjoyed sharing the experience with me. The wife and I
> > spent today cutting up two front and two rear legs and the freezer is damned
> > near full! I will start on the main part of the carcase tomorrow, neck, ribs,
> > loins, etc. Should be some fine eating for the better part of the year. I
> > remain....
>
> Ahhhh.....and that's the best part! Elk is so good eating! 'Glad you
> had a fine trip, and success!
>
> Fred
>
> --
> "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Hand rolled-hem reply, 1
Date: 07 Dec 1998 11:26:36 EST
In a message dated 12/5/98 8:37:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, kestrel@ticon=
.net
writes:
<< Andrea, Please explain "roll-hemmed",how is it done etc.? I think I
understand the whipped together part well enough,but then got lost with
roll-hemmed.
Thanks,
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well >>
Dear Jeff and others,
=09A bit of introductory information on hand needles, I believe, might pro=
vide
some useful background information for success in hand sewing and for lear=
ning
the hand stitched rolled hem. The many types of needles that are made for
hand sewing are each designed for a specific purpose. Generally, a needle
should be fine enough to slip through fabric, yet heavy enough not to bend=
or
break. Always work with a clean, well-pointed needle. When choosing=97th=
e
larger the number, the shorter and finer the needle.
=09For most hand sewing tasks, I suggest a hand sewing needle type called
"Sharps" (sizes 1-12). They are medium in length with a rounded eye and a=
re
suitable for almost all fabric weights. Purchase only highest quality han=
d
needles. Good quality hand needles will last you a lifetime and those of
cheap quality will cause you incessant grief and frustration. Look for fi=
ne
quality Milward English needles sold in sewing supply stores or catalogs.
=09My next post will answer the hand rolled hem query.
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
Amoore2120@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Hand rolled-hem reply, 2
Date: 07 Dec 1998 11:41:46 EST
In a message dated 12/5/98 8:37:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, kestrel@ticon=
.net
writes:
<< Andrea, Please explain "roll-hemmed",how is it done etc.? I think I
understand the whipped together part well enough,but then got lost with
roll-hemmed.
Thanks,
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well >>
=09HAND STITCHED ROLLED HEM
=09Devising a means that will keep the fabric edge taut during hemming see=
ms to
greatly assist in the process. When hemming at home, I like to sit at the=
end
of the sofa and use the arm as a pin cushion hemming clamp, holding the fa=
bric
edge taut while I hem. To further explain: pin the fabric edge to the cou=
ch
arm and hold the fabric with the left hand approximately 6 inch to 10 inch=
es
away. This allows the right hand to stitch the rolled hem quickly and eve=
nly.
During the nineteenth century needle workers had hemming clamps which held=
the
fabric firmly at one end. You can buy reproduction third-hand clamps.
=09Select a very fine needle (size 10) and extra fine thread. I like to u=
se
cotton machine embroidery thread which is readily available but fine linen
thread is probably more authentic. Another option is to separate the plie=
s of
a piece of embroidery floss or other. Approximately 18 inches is a conven=
ient
sewing thread length. To prevent tangling, knotting and curling of the
thread, draw the entire length of thread through a chunk of bees wax three
times. Next heat the length of thread with a hot iron or other means to m=
elt
away small wax lumps and to completely permeate the thread with the wax.
This will not only make your hand sewing easier but will also permanently
strengthen the thread.
=09Next, sew a close running stitch about =BD inch from the raw edge. Thi=
s will
stabilize the raw edge and serve as a guide for an even, straight hem.
RUNNING STITCH
=09Running stitches should be very short (as short as is humanly possible)=
.
Proceed by working the point of the needle up and down through the fabric
layer taking up several stitches before pulling the needle through.
=09Or you can cheat (like I do) and machine sew the straight stitch (1/2 i=
nch
from raw edge). The stitches will be completely covered by the rolled hem=
and
I believe this means provides a more stable edge than the hand stitching.
However, to be totally authentic, all stitching must be hand done.
=09Next, carefully trim close to the stitched line. To avoid fraying, tri=
m off
only about 8 inches to 10 inches at a time. Hide the knot within the roll=
.
With wrong side up, roll the trimmed edge between your thumb and forefinge=
r to
enclose the stitched line. For a tighter roll moisten before rolling. Ho=
ld
the rolled edge firmly over your forefinger between your thumb and middle
finger. Hem the trimmed edge using a small overcast stitch.
HAND OVERCAST STITCH
=09Using tiny stitches take up just one or two yarns (the threads used in =
making
yardage are called yarns), pulling the thread completely through after eac=
h
stitch.
=09Continue to trim and hem until the edge is finished. To avoid pressing=
the
hem flat, press only up to (against) the hem roll as the desired end resul=
t is
a small, firm and round hem.
=09Next time I will discuss the hand overcast stitch which is an easier an=
d
quicker seam edge finish. We will also discuss homespun fabric sources an=
d
some interesting rectangular shirt history--must be running along for now.
Please let me know if you have questions.
=09Oh, I almost forgot, if any of you are interested, I am a regular autho=
r in
Threads magazine. Taunton Press put my recent article on their internet s=
ite
if you would like to take a look at:
http://www.taunton.com/th/features/techniques/33soup.h
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
Amoore2120@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan Replica Clothing Notebook
Date: 07 Dec 1998 12:27:51 EST
Hello All!
. . . just one more thought, this might be a good time, before we get too far
along, to suggest starting a notebook on the MtMan replica clothing techniques
that we will be covering. It is a good way to organize your information,
adding samples and photographs, and a good reference when you teach younger
boys and others later on.
You can probably pick up a suitable notebook at your local office supply
center (or trading post). To help keep the topics organized you can make or
buy some dividers and label them according to subject. We will start with the
MtMan replica cloth (rectangle) shirt, next I presume will come the wool
(blanket) capote, followed by a braintan shirt (or other) project.
I hope my sewing posts will bring the concept of sewing some of your own
clothing and furnishing items to a more feasible level for those of you who
would like to give it a whirl. I will help you all I can as I have the spare
time--looking forward to learning with all of you.
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
Amoore2120@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snow Shoeing
Date: 07 Dec 1998 11:46:39 -0800
Grant,
I personally don't think you can go wrong by wearing winter moc,s and securing
your snow shoes with the method used by the Native Americans. You will find
directions for the hitch used in a "Ben Hunt" Indian Crafts" book. It requires two
whangs of leather. One over the toes and one around the heal. I quit using the
leather buckle style as soon as I learned how to tie the indian hitch ( it was
actually invented by my Finnish Forefathers and introduced to the indians well
before Columbus). Your winter mocs should have room for a wool blanket bootie
inside and what ever sock you wish to wear. Don't try to do a lot of waterproofing
on the mocs and they will be very sure footed on the snow. I like brain tan as the
leather of choice for lashings and mocs. I do grease the lashings. Got any further
questions just ask. I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Grantd9@aol.com wrote:
> I am probably going to get some snow shoes for Christmas and need some gear
> help/advice. Where can I find a pattern or instructions for making authentic
> bindings? What is the best leather to use for bindings? Or is there a better
> material for bindings? What are other items that are good to have when
> pre-1840 snow shoeing? I will be wearing them mostly when persuing small game
> in the winter woods. Is there a type of gator that would be authentic for a
> transitional longhunter (1785-1795)? What are some good sources of
> information on gear for cold weather jaunting? Anyway, that is more than
> enough questions for now. Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. Thanks.
>
> Grant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Laura Rugel Glise <lglise@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw:
Date: 06 Dec 1998 22:35:31 +0000
Was the animal a conie?
Laura Jean
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw:
Date: 07 Dec 1998 21:29:22 -0600
No, not a conie. Conie was not listed in the 1828 dictionary. Neither =
was pecheon. Thanks for trying.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----
>Was the animal a conie?=20
>
>Laura Jean
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!]
Date: 08 Dec 1998 01:02:38 -0500
CPT:
glad to have you back just made it home myself from being out making
winter meat---hunted arkansas and mo. ken yellowfeather joined me in
arkansas and saw the old original 54 make meat---ran a monster buck over
the top of him and he didn'nt get a shot---long story---saw lots of deer
and filled all of my tags---good year except it was really too warm and
there was not a good acorn crop in arkansas ---the mo. deer are corn and
bean fed---got to take the h.e. leman gun I restored and kill a a nice 6
point one shot at about 70 yds with .495 round ball and 80 gr FFFg
---folded him up in his tracks like he was hit with a sledge hammer and
didn't hirt any meat---broke a rib on both sides and exploded his heart
and lungs---usually they run a few yards--
we eat good this winter for sure---glad to have you back---
"Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida 34684
1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com
On Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:17:06 -0800 Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> writes:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>
>
>
>
>> Dear Friends and etc.
>
>Back in Jan. my "Hairy Lizard" buddy Louie Lewis invited me to come
>hunt in a N.
>Idaho M/L Elk hunt this Nov. In anticipation I bought and built in
>Oct. a "Mark
>Silver" rifle in .62 cal. flint from Jim Chambers. I got it sighted in
>with a good
>load of 3fff under a .60 round ball and on the 19th of Nov. set off
>for the
>Clearwater Nat. Forest in Idaho.
>
>> For the next two weeks we hunted hard. It rained most every day
>with a couple of
>> days of light snow that didn't stick well. We would get up at 0530
>and hunt until
>> 10, then come back to camp and have breakfast. We went out again
>until dark. I
>> usually was in my bedroll by 2000. Louie go
>> a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at
>a cow in a
>> group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours
>of trying
>> to figure which set of tracks were hers. Cliff Nole of N. Idaho got
>his elk a
>> week into the hunt. There were 5 white tails brought into camp by
>others in the
>> party, even a few grouse.
>>
>> We came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had
>dinner with
>> Louies friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then
>went back up on
>>
>> the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few
>days and
>> Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more
>days but
>> had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go
>out. Just
>> stayed under cove. Two of his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry
>and his dad
>> and mom, Bill and Noreen
>> stayed up but were gona have to leave Friday. I figured I'd stay as
>long as
>> there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky.
>
>> Over the two weeks I got real close to several white tail and got
>the shit scared
>> out of me by grouse going ballistic at my feet a number of times.
>There were
>> several moose in the
>> area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I
>saw a few
>> elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but
>long canyon
>> shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking
>for a
>> place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just
>about ready
>> to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about
>10' decided
>> to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and
>aimed at the
>> next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to
>miss that
>> one spot I could have shot.
>>
>> On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the
>little valley
>> and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's
>side of the
>> ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She
>moved and
>> I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just
>long enough
>> to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked back out to the end of the
>skid road and
>> crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I
>had come up
>> until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about
>half way to
>> camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any
>fresh tracks
>> came back down to the next spur going east and started around that
>road as it
>> went around another little ridge.
>>
>> As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old
>log deck
>> with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge
>of the
>> grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break
>on the far
>> side of the little valley. I froze where I was and within moments a
>big cow elk
>> walked out of the
>> "Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that
>it was 112
>> long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment.
>I figured
>> I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from
>"Chambers" , off
>> hand,
>> and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just
>behind the
>> shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about
>a half
>> dozen shots to re-clean the gun, this rifle never failed to go off
>and with
>> almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with
>a gentle
>> squeeze the ball was on its way.
>>
>> The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I
>reloaded as I
>> watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I
>walked slowly
>> to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought
>I heard a
>> quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The
>tracks went
>> to the right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the
>left as they
>> entered the "Christmas Trees". No blood and no hair! At the first
>couple of fir
>> trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on
>both
>> trees! I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not
>turn out bad
>> and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost
>vertical and as
>> I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing
>tree limbs
>> and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+
>degrees of
>> slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and
>there she
>> was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs
>tucked under
>> the body. Thank You! says I. Out came the knife and after the
>obligatory letting
>> of my own blood to mingle with her's I took care of opening up the
>body cavity
>> and by
>> that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp.
>>
>> We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and
>back to
>> camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer.
>The .60 round
>> ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both
>lungs, and
>> going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I
>got a
>> garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to
>help so
>> will close for now. I remain most greatfull and humble............
>
>YMOSCapt. Lahti'
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>--------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C
>Content-Type: message/rfc822
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Disposition: inline
>
>Message-ID: <366AC097.F585B324@gte.net>
>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:36:24 -0800
>From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: houcro@proaxis.com,
> "birchbark@sprintmail.com" <birchbark@sprintmail.com>
>Subject: I'm Back!
>References: <3.0.5.32.19981127190902.007e97b0@proaxis.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Tom, Mike, et,al.
>
>Got back about non on Sat. Dead tired and with 1400+ messages on this
>machine!
>Louie and I got a shot at a big cow Elk two sundays back and while I
>was
>reloading, he ran ahead and using his swivel .62 flinter shot at her
>again. He
>apparently hit her and we found blood. The first shot we took at the
>same
>moment but it was a long way out and I was using 90 gr. I don't think
>we hit
>her. His second shot brought blood but not much and by the time she
>went to the
>top of the hill, she got into so many other tracks that we couldn't
>pick her
>out. We looked for quit a while and then ran into Cliff Nole and
>another friend
>and went on. It rained most every day with a couple of days of light
>snow that
>didn't stick well. I had a Honda 4 wheeler to ride out on each day if
>I wanted.
>We would get up at 0530 and hunt until 10, then come back to camp and
>have
>breakfast. We went out again until dark. I usually was in bed by 2000.
>Louie go
>a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at a
>cow in a
>group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours of
>trying
>to figure which set of tracks were hers.
>
>I came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had
>dinner with
>his friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then went
>back up on
>the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few
>days and
>Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more
>days but
>had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go
>out. Two of
>his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry and his dad and mom, Bill
>and Noreen
>stayed up but were gona have to leave Thursday. I figured I'd stay as
>long as
>there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky. Over the two weeks
>I got
>real close to several white tail and got the shit scared out of me by
>grouse
>going ballistic at my feet a number of times. There were several moose
>in the
>area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I
>saw a few
>elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but
>long canyon
>shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking
>for a
>place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just
>about ready
>to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about 10'
>decided
>to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and
>aimed at the
>next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to
>miss that
>one spot I could have shot.
>
>On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the
>little valley
>and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's
>side of the
>ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She
>moved and
>I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just long
>enough
>to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked out to the end of the skid road
>and
>crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I had
>come up
>until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about
>half way to
>camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any fresh
>tracks
>came back down to the next spur going east and started around that
>road as it
>went around another little ridge.
>
>As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old
>log deck
>with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge of
>the
>grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break
>on the far
>side. I froze where I was and within moments a big cow elk walked out
>of the
>"Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that it
>was 112
>long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment. I
>figured
>I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from "Chambers"
>off hand
>and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just
>behind the
>shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about a
>half
>dozen shots to re-clean the gun, This rifle never failed to go off and
>with
>almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with a
>gentle
>squeeze the ball was on its way.
>
>The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I
>reloaded and
>watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I
>walked slowly
>to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought I
>heard a
>quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The
>tracks went
>right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the left as
>they
>entered the "Christmas Trees". NO blood and no hair! At the first
>couple of fir
>trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on
>both
>limbs. I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not
>turn out bad
>and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost
>vertical and as
>I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing
>tree limbs
>and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+
>degrees of
>slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and
>there she
>was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs
>tucked under
>the body. Thank You! says I. I took care of opening up the body cavity
>and by
>that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp.
>
>We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and
>back to
>camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer. The
>.60 round
>ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both
>lungs, and
>going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I
>got a
>garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to
>help so
>will close for now.
>
>Talk at you both later,
>
>Your buddy Rog'
>
>
>
>
>
>--------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C--
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan Replica Clothing Notebook
Date: 08 Dec 1998 02:48:26 -0600
>Hello All!
>. . . just one more thought, this might be a good time, before we
>get too far along, to suggest starting a notebook on the MtMan
>replica clothing techniques that we will be covering. It is a good
>way to organize your information, adding samples and photographs,
>and a good reference when you teach younger boys and others later
I'll spend my money on good Whiskey,but when it comes to clothes
available at 'vos and through the traders,etc. I'll stumble along making my
own any day! Got a suitable notebook and am ready to learn! Thanks for
lesson #1 on rolled hems,its already printed and waiting for more!
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
I didn't think orange went with purple until I saw the sunset last night
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!]
Date: 08 Dec 1998 08:53:51 -0800
Michael,
Thanks Hawk, and congratulations on a successful hunt. Any hunt where you get
out and have a good time like we did is a success but it is sure nice when
you make meat too. Hope the rest of your winter goes as well. From here, I
remain......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "L. A. Romsa" <LROMSA1@missc.state.wy.us>
Subject: MtMan-List: Harper's Ferry 1851
Date: 08 Dec 1998 11:36:15 -0700
Howdy all,
My boss showed me a caplock he has. It looks in good shape. I didn't have =
my specticals so I couldn't read what was on the barrel, but he told me it =
read Harper's Ferry 1851. It looks like a smooth bore or shotgun. It had =
one band and is a halfstock, with no rear sight. Can anyone tell me =
anything about this with the little info I have?
I have "surfed the net" some, but with no success.
Thanks abunch!=20
BrokenJaw
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw:
Date: 08 Dec 1998 07:51:38 -0800
Try...."pinchon" or "pincheon"????
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw:
Date: 08 Dec 1998 20:13:59 -0600
John
I think that is the critter!!! That is the good news. The bad news is =
that the 1828 Dictionary didn't list the thing. Waugh!!
Thanks
Lanney
-----Original Message-----
>Try...."pinchon" or "pincheon"????
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at =
http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Fabrics 1
Date: 09 Dec 1998 10:30:25 EST
Hello Everyone,
During my research, I have noticed slight inconsistencies in some of the
information regarding authentic clothing construction techniques, for example,
use of french seams, and other things. A lot of the reason for the confusion,
I believe, is when a particular statement is made it often applies to just one
small isolated region and is incorrectly assumed to be much more widespread.
If you notice an error or have anything to add to what is being said, PLEASE
let us all know. I, for one, am most anxious to learn the real facts from all
of you.
I will post my information on fabrics in two posts as it is rather long and
might not work in one post. At the end I have a few questions for you. I
hope this information is useful.
I think this might be a good time to explain that my main focus regarding
sewing is the enjoyment of the crafting process and satisfaction in the
finished product. There are numerous methods for building and constructing
things, including clothing, and I am very interested in the sewing/engineering
techniques you have invented along the way regarding your sewing experiences.
I am sure there are a lot of neat things I can learn from all of you and I am
interested in hearing all about the way you do things.
FABRICS
In the interests of "getting on things" we will fast forward to fabric
options. We will cover techniques and design and sewing considerations as we
encounter them along the way.
In older times clothes were not cut but folded and seamed--no cutting was
involved. Clothing designs emulated the width of local looms. The original
homespun cloth was typically woven approximately 28 inches in width. The
finished shirt after seaming would measure approximately 50 inches around.
The selvages were utilized in the seaming which conveniently addressed the
question of dealing with raveling seam (raw) edges. The rectangle shirt
offered an efficient system for utilizing the hand woven fabric which resulted
in a very practical, sturdy shirt for everyday wear.
I have located a good source for ordering historical homespun fabric for your
rectangle shirt if you are looking for, or close to, the real McCoy. The
information as follows:
Burnley and Townbridge Co.
Angela Burnley, VP
Phone: 757-253-1644
Fax: 757-253-9120
e-mail: jasburn@aol.com
address: 108 Druid Drive
Williamsburg, Virginia 23185
*****Retail mail order company specializing in historic fabrics of the 17th ,
18th, and early 19th century for historic costumes and reenactors. Large
selection of wool, linen/cotton mixes, as well as all related items for
clothing construction. Catalog with swatches available for $4.00.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Harper's Ferry 1851
Date: 09 Dec 1998 10:37:08 -0500
BROKEN JAW
the lock plate will be marked if it's a harpers ferry and there will be a
eagle on the plate hard to miss if not then it's not a harpers ferry.
you need to look it over again and then I will direct you to where you
might find information about it. one of the guys on the list sent me
some info on harpers ferry rifle out of a military reference book that
was quite good.
"Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida 34684
1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com
On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:36:15 -0700 "L. A. Romsa"
<LROMSA1@missc.state.wy.us> writes:
>Howdy all,
> My boss showed me a caplock he has. It looks in good shape. I didn't
>have =
>my specticals so I couldn't read what was on the barrel, but he told
>me it =
>read Harper's Ferry 1851. It looks like a smooth bore or shotgun. It
>had =
>one band and is a halfstock, with no rear sight. Can anyone tell me =
>anything about this with the little info I have?
>I have "surfed the net" some, but with no success.
>Thanks abunch!=20
>
>BrokenJaw
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 09 Dec 1998 10:42:40 EST
Here is my second and final post on fabrics:
=09For your first rectangle shirt, you may want to work with common fabric=
s
readily available today and at reasonable cost. Among the choices are
bleached and unbleached muslin. If you call around to your local fabric
stores you might be able to locate some muslin in 36 inch widths which mea=
ns
that you have the option of making your garment utilizing the selvages in =
the
seams (no seam finishing necessary!). Otherwise, muslin is commonly avail=
able
in 45 inch and sometimes 60 inch widths.
=09Possibly closest to original homespun in a modern-day fabric is Osnabur=
g
cloth which should be located along with the muslins at your fabric tradin=
g
post. Osnaburg is a coarse cotton cloth often made with part waste in it,
plain weave, medium to heavy in weight and resembling crash (are you still
with me?) "Crash" is a coarse fabric having a rough irregular surface obta=
ined
by weaving thick and uneven yarns. Back to Osnaburg=97it is sometimes use=
d
unbleached for cement, grain and comparable types of containers. Personal=
ly,
I like the rural, pastoral look of Osnaburg but I prefer to not wear it ne=
xt
to my skin.
=09It is important that you pre wash your yardage exactly as you intend to
launder your finished garment. Your yardage will likely shrink pretty
extensively with the first few washings. At least, run it through one
complete laundering cycle before cutting out and sewing your garment. It i=
s a
good idea to purchase some extra fabric to allow for pre wash shrinkage.
=09I always purchase more fabric than I need for a project. So if you wan=
t too
much fabric I suggest you purchase at least 5 yards or more. The fabrics
types we are discussing (above mention) can shrink a surprising amount in =
the
length of the goods.
=09Here is something I came across in my research and I thought you might =
be
interested: "Nail" was an archaic unit of measure representing 1/16th of a
yard of fabric (2 and =BC inches). It is the exact length of a metal nail=
used
in building=97equivalent to the present-day 7d nail? The term "nail" was
commonly used as opposed to inches. As I am thinking about it, nails were
hand forged by a blacksmith=97would that be correct? Please let me know.
Thanks.
=09I have a couple of questions I hope someone can answer:
If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would be
required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)?
Can someone please direct me to the best source of braintan?
What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather without ruining the
texture?
Is braintan purchased by the individual skin or other?
=09Next time I will show you how to draft your own shirt pattern. Bye for=
now.
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
Amoore2120@aol.com
=09
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw:
Date: 09 Dec 1998 12:40:48 -0600
'Pinchon' or 'pincheon' might have been French word or slang. But the
closest my tourist French-English dictionary has is
pincon (where the c has the curl under it) which is a bruise or mark
(damaged plew?) or
pince which can mean lobster or crawfish claw.
Iron Burner
Lanney Ratcliff wrote:
> I think that is the critter!!! That is the good news. The bad news is that the 1828 Dictionary didn't list the thing. Waugh!!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John C Funk <j2hearts@juno.com>
>
> >Try...."pinchon" or "pincheon"????
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 09 Dec 1998 12:41:02 -0600
Andrea,
Nail was derived as a unit of measure based on the length of the forefinger
from the first knuckle to the end of the finger including the "nail". =20
A pretty handy unit for a seamstress or tailor to work with.
John...
At 10:42 AM 12/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Here is my second and final post on fabrics:
>
> For your first rectangle shirt, you may want to work with common fabrics
>readily available today and at reasonable cost.=A0 Among the choices are
>bleached and unbleached muslin.=A0 If you call around to your local fabric
>stores you might be able to locate some muslin in 36 inch widths which=
means
>that you have the option of making your garment utilizing the selvages in=
the
>seams (no seam finishing necessary!).=A0 Otherwise, muslin is commonly
available
>in 45 inch and sometimes 60 inch widths.=A0=20
>
> Possibly closest to original homespun in a modern-day fabric is Osnaburg
>cloth which should be located along with the muslins at your fabric trading
>post.=A0 Osnaburg is a coarse cotton cloth often made with part waste in=
it,
>plain weave, medium to heavy in weight and resembling crash (are you still
>with me?) "Crash" is a coarse fabric having a rough irregular surface
obtained
>by weaving thick and uneven yarns.=A0 Back to Osnaburg=97it is sometimes=
used
>unbleached for cement, grain and comparable types of containers.=A0=
Personally,
>I like the rural, pastoral look of Osnaburg but I prefer to not wear it=
next
>to my skin.
>
> It is important that you pre wash your yardage exactly as you intend to
>launder your finished garment.=A0 Your yardage will likely shrink pretty
>extensively with the first few washings.=A0 At least, run it through one
>complete laundering cycle before cutting out and sewing your garment. It is=
a
>good idea to purchase some extra fabric to allow for pre wash shrinkage.
>
> I always purchase more fabric than I need for a project.=A0 So if you want=
too
>much fabric I suggest you purchase at least 5 yards or more.=A0 The fabrics
>types we are discussing (above mention) can shrink a surprising amount in=
the
>length of the goods.
>
> Here is something I came across in my research and I thought you might be
>interested: "Nail" was an archaic unit of measure representing 1/16th of a
>yard of fabric (2 and =BC inches).=A0 It is the exact length of a metal=
nail used
>in building=97equivalent to the present-day 7d nail?=A0 The term "nail" was
>commonly used as opposed to inches.=A0 As I am thinking about it, nails=
were
>hand forged by a blacksmith=97would that be correct?=A0 Please let me know.
>Thanks.
>
> I have a couple of questions I hope someone can answer:
>
>If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would be
>required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)?
>
>Can someone please direct me to the best source of braintan?
>
>What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather without ruining the
>texture?
>
>Is braintan purchased by the individual skin or other?=20
>
> Next time I will show you how to draft your own shirt pattern.=A0 Bye for=
now.
>
>Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer=A0=A0 Sewing Design Company
>Amoore2120@aol.com=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
>
>=20
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
<http://www.kramerize.com/>
mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gbosen@juno.com (Greg N Bosen Bosen)
Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo jacket
Date: 09 Dec 1998 13:45:19 EST
i have a buffalo hide that i'd like to make into a jacket. do any of you
have a pattern or a sorce of one?
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 09 Dec 1998 11:08:45 -0800
> Andrea,
I used two brain tanned deer hides to make my wife's Plains Indian dress. She is a 6 or
8.
One for the front and one for the back. Some dress patterns call for a third hide
across the shoulders. I think you could get a nice short vest from one large hide if you
cut carefully. The jacket will take close to three or four hides, the sleeves eat hides
like a pack of neighborhood dogs! If you are interested in purchasing hides, my friend
and AMM brother Mike Rider makes up some of the nicest hides I've ever seen and I will
give you his address off line if you contact me. I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
>
>
> If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would be
> required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 09 Dec 1998 12:39:10 -0700
Here are some answers to Andrea's questions on braintan....
Question: Can someone please direct me to the best source of braintan?
Response: There is a list of over 40 brain tanners who sell finished
skins at www.braintan.com/resources/directory2.html. In my opinion the folks
tanning the very nicest brain tan are Doug Crist (Montana), Steven Edholm &
Tamara Wilder (California), Mac Maness (North Carolina) and ourselves
(Montana). (We are all equivalent in quality and prices). This is not to say
that this group is the best, just the best that I have seen. The general
quality level of braintan has been going steadily upwards in the last five
years. I am very familiar with nearly all brain tanners in the West. Back
east, I don't know them all. You can view our page on buying our braintan at
www.braintan.com/intro/buying.html
Question: What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather without
ruining the
texture?
Response: Treat braintan like wool. Wash with natural soft soaps as they
won't strip the oils like detergents do (Ivory, Fels Naptha, White King or
home-made soaps are all good), and don't machine dry. If you machine dry all
the way until its dry, it will shrink considerably in the final stages (much
like wool)...your beautiful dress will then fit your 10 yr old far better
than yourself.
Air dry your braintan the same way you do any clothes. Ideally you work
the hide a little bit in the final stages of drying. If you don't the
braintan dries a bit stiff like starched underwear, and then you just
manipulate it a bit to get it back to normal. (its really easy) At this
stage, your braintan will be basically soft as before, though the surface a
tad scratchier. To get the surface velvety soft again, rub lightly with a
piece of pumice or something similar.
One of the great things about brain tan is how well it takes washing. It
doesn't break down the leather at all. My work breeches have been washed
over 100 times in a washing machine and are as soft as the day I made them.
One last washing tip is this. If the hides are well tanned, ie quite
soft from the get-go, they wash and soften up easily. If they are marginally
tanned, meaning the tanner worked their butts off to get it soft enough to
sell (but wasn't really brained well), they will always be a hassle to
soften. So when you get hides, make sure they are thoroughly soft to begin
with.
Question: Is braintan purchased by the individual skin or other?
Response: Every tanner I know sells by the skin. It is not practical to
cut up skins to sell parts of skins....though you will find folks who
sometimes conveniently have a scrap that is just the right size for what you
want, and will sell that to you.
Question: If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan
would be
required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)?
Response: For a size 10, it generally takes two hides for a vest, four
for a fringed jacket (fringe takes a lot), and two large hides for a dress.
You may find it interesting to check out the photo's of some of what
Michelle (my wife) custom makes, at
www.braintan.com/buckskindesigns/toc.html . There are photos of a jacket,
vest, two dresses, and various satchels and pouches. There is also detail
shots of stitching and other decorative touches.
There is also a lot of detail on the ins and outs of working with and
washing braintan in the book 'Deerskins into Buckskins' (about 40 pages of
it is on this) by Matt Richards, and Wetscrape Braintanned Buckskin by
Steven Edholm and Tamara Wilder. You can see more on these books at
www.braintan.com/intro/recommended.html
Hope this helps,
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
2755 Sinclair Creek Rd
Eureka MT 59917
406-889-5532
Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning
and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books
and class schedules.
-----Original Message-----
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 09 Dec 1998 12:50:34 -0700
This is a P.S. to the previous list of brain tanners I recommend. Here is a
list of other tanners who sell, who I would describe as tanning plenty good
buckskin (where as the previous list was the primo folks) include: Molly
Miller, Michael 'Dirty Shirt' Ryder, Jim Miller, Charlie Trujillo, Jim
Riggs, David 'Sheom' Rose, Tom Orr.
Some folks who I assume also do good work, but I've never seen their hides
are: Larry Belitz, and the Dinsmores.
And again, this is just from folks' whose buckskin I am familar with, and
based on the last couple times I checked out their hides...things do change.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
2755 Sinclair Creek Rd
Eureka MT 59917
406-889-5532
Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning
and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books
and class schedules.
-----Original Message-----
Here is my second and final post on fabrics:
For your first rectangle shirt, you may want to work with common fabrics
readily available today and at reasonable cost. Among the choices are
bleached and unbleached muslin. If you call around to your local fabric
stores you might be able to locate some muslin in 36 inch widths which means
that you have the option of making your garment utilizing the selvages in
the
seams (no seam finishing necessary!). Otherwise, muslin is commonly
available
in 45 inch and sometimes 60 inch widths.
Possibly closest to original homespun in a modern-day fabric is Osnaburg
cloth which should be located along with the muslins at your fabric trading
post. Osnaburg is a coarse cotton cloth often made with part waste in it,
plain weave, medium to heavy in weight and resembling crash (are you still
with me?) "Crash" is a coarse fabric having a rough irregular surface
obtained
by weaving thick and uneven yarns. Back to Osnaburgùit is sometimes used
unbleached for cement, grain and comparable types of containers.
Personally,
I like the rural, pastoral look of Osnaburg but I prefer to not wear it next
to my skin.
It is important that you pre wash your yardage exactly as you intend to
launder your finished garment. Your yardage will likely shrink pretty
extensively with the first few washings. At least, run it through one
complete laundering cycle before cutting out and sewing your garment. It is
a
good idea to purchase some extra fabric to allow for pre wash shrinkage.
I always purchase more fabric than I need for a project. So if you want too
much fabric I suggest you purchase at least 5 yards or more. The fabrics
types we are discussing (above mention) can shrink a surprising amount in
the
length of the goods.
Here is something I came across in my research and I thought you might be
interested: "Nail" was an archaic unit of measure representing 1/16th of a
yard of fabric (2 and ╝ inches). It is the exact length of a metal nail
used
in buildingùequivalent to the present-day 7d nail? The term "nail" was
commonly used as opposed to inches. As I am thinking about it, nails were
hand forged by a blacksmithùwould that be correct? Please let me know.
Thanks.
I have a couple of questions I hope someone can answer:
If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would be
required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)?
Can someone please direct me to the best source of braintan?
What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather without ruining the
texture?
Is braintan purchased by the individual skin or other?
Next time I will show you how to draft your own shirt pattern. Bye for now.
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
Amoore2120@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo jacket
Date: 09 Dec 1998 12:55:31 -0700
I'd also be interested in knowing of any patterns or pattern sources for
buffalo hide jackets.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
2755 Sinclair Creek Rd
Eureka MT 59917
406-889-5532
Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning
and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books
and class schedules.
-----Original Message-----
>i have a buffalo hide that i'd like to make into a jacket. do any of you
>have a pattern or a sorce of one?
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw:
Date: 09 Dec 1998 14:51:42 -0600
That useage would fit the context of the original note. A damaged plew =
might have some value, but not as much a perfect one and would be listed =
separately. Does that make sense to anyone else?
Lanney
-----Original Message-----
>'Pinchon' or 'pincheon' might have been French word or slang. But the
>closest my tourist French-English dictionary has is
>pincon (where the c has the curl under it) which is a bruise or mark
>(damaged plew?) or
>pince which can mean lobster or crawfish claw.
>
>Iron Burner
>
>Lanney Ratcliff wrote:
>
>> I think that is the critter!!! That is the good news. The bad news =
is that the 1828 Dictionary didn't list the thing. Waugh!!
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John C Funk <j2hearts@juno.com>
>>=20
>> >Try...."pinchon" or "pincheon"????
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo jacket
Date: 09 Dec 1998 18:40:53 -0500
Greg N Bosen Bosen wrote:
>
> i have a buffalo hide that i'd like to make into a jacket. do any of you
> have a pattern or a sorce of one?
I don't sorry, but check with Bob at Thunder Ridge MZ here on the list.
If he doesn't have one, then check with Track Of The Wolf.
Fred
--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 09 Dec 1998 21:13:30 -0800
Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique
to bring
the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to
1800 grit and
it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for
an appropriate
stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this
thing and don't
want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's
only horn,
wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow
grease.
Thanks!
Tom
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 09 Dec 1998 21:40:20 -0500
Tom,
Why the worry?? I finished my buff horn scraping with a piece of glass, no
need to burnish, then just rubbed, and rubbed and rubbed beeswax into it..
Turned out beautiful..
Dennis
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----
>Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique
>to bring
>the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to
>1800 grit and
>it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for
>an appropriate
>stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this
>thing and don't
>want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's
>only horn,
>wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow
>grease.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Tom
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Announcement
Date: 09 Dec 1998 20:41:01 -0600
Washtahay-
As I discussed about 18 months ago, I have begun making drawings and
construction notes on items from my small personal collection of original
accoutremounts. Drawings and notes completed to date include several
powder measures, and full size patterns and notes for two different hunting
pouches.
Please inquire directly of me for particulars.
LongWalker c. du B.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Announcement
Date: 09 Dec 1998 20:25:41 -0700
Longwalker,
I'd like to learn more about your hunting pouch patterns....
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
2755 Sinclair Creek Rd
Eureka MT 59917
406-889-5532
Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning
and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books
and class schedules.
-----Original Message-----
>Washtahay-
> As I discussed about 18 months ago, I have begun making drawings and
>construction notes on items from my small personal collection of original
>accoutremounts. Drawings and notes completed to date include several
>powder measures, and full size patterns and notes for two different hunting
>pouches.
> Please inquire directly of me for particulars.
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 09 Dec 1998 22:30:14 -0500
"Thomas W. Roberts" wrote:
>
> Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique
> to bring
> the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to
> 1800 grit and
> it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for
> an appropriate
> stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this
> thing and don't
> want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's
> only horn,
> wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow
> grease.
I'd seal the horn with a couple of coats of tongue oil, then wax it and
buff. The maple plug looks good with a boiled hull black walnut stain,
then tongue oil to seal.
Fred
--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's din some!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <yrrw@cyberramp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 09 Dec 1998 22:33:23 -0600
Thomas,
It depends on what kind of finish you want on your horn. I personally
like to start off with a dull finish on a horn, because it will take on a
shine with age and wear. On the other hand if you want start off with a
slick shiney finish you might try using some Tru-oil on it. It will give
you a real slick finish, but beware when it is finished and you take it out
for the first time that is as good as it will ever look. It is like using
some of these poly-base finishes on gun stocks. They look great when they
are new, but it is down hill from there. I have a buffalo horn that I am
very proud of. I scaped it down smooth, then used steel wool to burnish it
out. I took it out to 0000 steel wool. Then rubbed beeswax all over it, and
finally rubbed it down with burlap. Initially it was pretty dull looking
but as time has gone by it has taken on a really nice natural shine. You
just have to make a decision as to what direction you want to go.
Pendleton
----------
> From: Thomas W. Roberts <troberts@gdi.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: MtMan-List: Horn
> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:13 PM
>
> Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique
> to bring
> the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to
> 1800 grit and
> it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for
> an appropriate
> stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this
> thing and don't
> want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's
> only horn,
> wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow
> grease.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tom
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <yrrw@cyberramp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 09 Dec 1998 22:45:13 -0600
I forgot to mention the stain on the butt plug. I don't know if I would use
a nitric acid stain on a horn, but I'll tell you what will work real nice.
Take a plug of chewing tobacco and tear it up into a pint jar. Then fill
the jar with household ammonia. Put a lid on it and forget about it for a
couple of weeks. This makes a fine stain for maple.
Pendleton
----------
> From: yellow rose/pendleton <yrrw@cyberramp.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:33 PM
>
> Thomas,
> It depends on what kind of finish you want on your horn. I personally
> like to start off with a dull finish on a horn, because it will take on a
> shine with age and wear. On the other hand if you want start off with a
> slick shiney finish you might try using some Tru-oil on it. It will give
> you a real slick finish, but beware when it is finished and you take it
out
> for the first time that is as good as it will ever look. It is like using
> some of these poly-base finishes on gun stocks. They look great when they
> are new, but it is down hill from there. I have a buffalo horn that I am
> very proud of. I scaped it down smooth, then used steel wool to burnish
it
> out. I took it out to 0000 steel wool. Then rubbed beeswax all over it,
and
> finally rubbed it down with burlap. Initially it was pretty dull looking
> but as time has gone by it has taken on a really nice natural shine. You
> just have to make a decision as to what direction you want to go.
> Pendleton
>
> ----------
> > From: Thomas W. Roberts <troberts@gdi.net>
> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Horn
> > Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:13 PM
> >
> > Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique
> > to bring
> > the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to
> > 1800 grit and
> > it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking
for
> > an appropriate
> > stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this
> > thing and don't
> > want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far,
it's
> > only horn,
> > wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of
elbow
> > grease.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Tom
> >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 09 Dec 1998 21:59:08 -0600
Dang right, Thomas. Larry 's horn is prime....he should be proud. It's =
even more handsome than a Tandy kit.=20
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----
>Thomas,
> It depends on what kind of finish you want on your horn. I personally
>like to start off with a dull finish on a horn, because it will take on =
a
>shine with age and wear. On the other hand if you want start off with a
>slick shiney finish you might try using some Tru-oil on it. It will =
give
>you a real slick finish, but beware when it is finished and you take it =
out
>for the first time that is as good as it will ever look. It is like =
using
>some of these poly-base finishes on gun stocks. They look great when =
they
>are new, but it is down hill from there. I have a buffalo horn that I =
am
>very proud of. I scaped it down smooth, then used steel wool to burnish =
it
>out. I took it out to 0000 steel wool. Then rubbed beeswax all over it, =
and
>finally rubbed it down with burlap. Initially it was pretty dull =
looking
>but as time has gone by it has taken on a really nice natural shine. =
You
>just have to make a decision as to what direction you want to go.
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Thomas W. Roberts <troberts@gdi.net>
>> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>> Subject: MtMan-List: Horn
>> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:13 PM
>>=20
>> Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate =
technique
>> to bring
>> the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up =
to
>> 1800 grit and
>> it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking =
for
>> an appropriate
>> stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this
>> thing and don't
>> want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, =
it's
>> only horn,
>> wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of =
elbow
>> grease.
>>=20
>> Thanks!
>>=20
>> Tom
>>=20
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 09 Dec 1998 23:09:46 -0500
Larry,
Ammonia?? I'll be damned..I have alwys just used the juice outta my can I
keep in the shop for the purpose, then mix it with warm linseed...I will
have to try the ammonia..What does it do? Make it richer?? Deeper??
Dennis
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----
>I forgot to mention the stain on the butt plug. I don't know if I would use
>a nitric acid stain on a horn, but I'll tell you what will work real nice.
>Take a plug of chewing tobacco and tear it up into a pint jar. Then fill
>the jar with household ammonia. Put a lid on it and forget about it for a
>couple of weeks. This makes a fine stain for maple.
>Pendleton
>
>--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 09 Dec 1998 23:21:43 -0500
Dennis Miles wrote:
>
> Larry,
> Ammonia?? I'll be damned..I have alwys just used the juice outta my can I
> keep in the shop for the purpose, then mix it with warm linseed...I will
> have to try the ammonia..What does it do? Make it richer?? Deeper??
Ammonia can cause problems if you finish the wood...DON'T use it! Warm
"boiled" linseed poured over chewing 'backy will produce a fine stain
that will penetrate well into the wood, as will a black walnut hull
stain. You make the later with as little water as possible, strain it
well, then boil it till it's BLACK. You then can cut it with water,
alcohol, turp, etc. for application.
Fred
--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo jacket
Date: 03 Oct 1998 08:45:52 -0500
David Montgomery's book "Mountainman Crafts and Skills" has patterns for
coats. They are easy to follow and very basic in instruction. Check
Horizon Publishers in Bountiful, Utah. LOC catalog# 80-82706.
Chases Hawks
Greg N Bosen Bosen wrote:
> i have a buffalo hide that i'd like to make into a jacket. do any of you
> have a pattern or a sorce of one?
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net
Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo coat
Date: 03 Oct 1998 08:55:35 -0500
Another source for coat construction would be "Dress and Equipage of the
Mountain Man" by Jeff Hengesbaugh and Wes Housler. They can be reached
@ Rocky Mtn. College Productions 22 Bell Canyon Rd. Cloudcroft, NM
88317
Chases Hawks
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 03 Oct 1998 09:00:16 -0500
Tom,
I used a couple of coats of automotive wax on my buffler horn to bring
out a shine and walnut hulls for a brown dye/stain on my plug. The type of
wax might not be true for the time, but the stain shure is!
Thomas W. Roberts wrote:
> Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique
> to bring
> the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to
> 1800 grit and
> it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for
> an appropriate
> stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this
> thing and don't
> want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's
> only horn,
> wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow
> grease.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tom
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 09 Dec 1998 21:53:43 -0700
Just get a piece of wood and rub the horn with it. Be surprised how it
will shine up.
DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
Thomas W. Roberts wrote:
>Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique
>to bring
>the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to
>1800 grit and
>it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for
>an appropriate
>stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this
>thing and don't
>want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's
>only horn,
>wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow
>grease.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Tom
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
ESMTP
> (SMTPD32-4.03) id AD5A26A0138; Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:09:30 MDT
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.04 #1)
> id 0znvUS-0006xt-00
> for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:06:04 -0700
>Received: from [209.26.2.66] (helo=gdi4.gdi.net ident=root)
> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.04 #1)
> id 0znvUP-0006xM-00
> for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:06:01 -0700
>Received: from gdi.net (luc4-06.gdi.net [209.26.119.71]) by gdi4.gdi.net
>(8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA25631 for <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>;
Wed, 9 Dec
>1998 21:08:10 -0500
>Message-ID: <366F5879.D96D9279@gdi.net>
>Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 21:13:30 -0800
>From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <troberts@gdi.net>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win16; I)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Horn
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>X-UIDL: 909624806
>Status: U
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Philip C. Rogers, Jr." <pcrogers@ticnet.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 09 Dec 1998 23:10:33 -0600
------ =_NextPart_000_01BE23C9.1FD257F0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thomas W. Roberts wrote:
> Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique
> to bring
> the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to
> 1800 grit and
> it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for
> an appropriate
> stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this
> thing and don't
> want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's
> only horn,
> wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow
> grease.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tom
Along those same lines, could someone point me to someone who has the
raw buffalo horns for sale??
Phil Rogers
------ =_NextPart_000_01BE23C9.1FD257F0
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64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------ =_NextPart_000_01BE23C9.1FD257F0--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NaugaMok@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 10 Dec 1998 00:38:55 EST
In a message dated 98-12-09 10:59:11 EST, you write:
<< As I am thinking about it, nails were
hand forged by a blacksmithùwould that be correct? Please let me know.
Thanks. >>
Blacksmiths made some of the nails, but they were more commonly made by
"nailers". Many nailers were women & children who made nails for spending
money. Many home hearths were devised with small forge areas which were fed
with coals from the cook fire & "fanned" with a small bellows. About the only
special tooling needed for nail production were the "headers" which were
simply moulds or in proper terms, "swages" used to keep the head shape & size
of a specific nail size uniform. Some nailers got quite creative in
decorating the heads of their nails with the use of smaller hammers & punches.
This info was gleaned from several old issures of ABANA's (Artist-Blacksmith's
Association of North America) magazine: "The Anvil's Ring" & NWBA's (North
West Blacksmith's Association) magazine "Hot Iron News".
NM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Addison Miller" <sean@naplesnet.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Announcement
Date: 10 Dec 1998 00:42:58 -0500
Aye... me too....
Addison Miller
-----Original Message-----
>Longwalker,
>I'd like to learn more about your hunting pouch patterns....
>
>Matt Richards
>www.braintan.com
>2755 Sinclair Creek Rd
>Eureka MT 59917
>406-889-5532
>
>Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning
>and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books
>and class schedules.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 1:08 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Announcement
>
>
>>Washtahay-
>> As I discussed about 18 months ago, I have begun making drawings and
>>construction notes on items from my small personal collection of original
>>accoutremounts. Drawings and notes completed to date include several
>>powder measures, and full size patterns and notes for two different
hunting
>>pouches.
>> Please inquire directly of me for particulars.
>>LongWalker c. du B.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 10 Dec 1998 10:04:48 EST
In a message dated 12/9/98 9:41:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, NaugaMok@aol.com
writes:
<< Blacksmiths made some of the nails, but they were more commonly made by
"nailers". Many nailers were women & children who made nails for spending
money. >>
What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's manufactured
nails? I remember that it was common to see people collect and save nails
after pulling them out of old lumber. Later, in their spare time, people
would straighten the nails by hammering against an anvil or other hard surface
in the hopes to reuse them. I know that many a nail had seen several
projects.
After a garment was completely worn out and no longer serviceable, the sewing
thread was oftentimes carefully removed from the seam lines and wound on a
spool for reuse, any fabric which could be selvaged was saved for quilts. I
do not know if this was because thread was scarce or if it was money that was
in short supply. Like nails, I imagine sewing thread frequently saw more than
one project. Odd-color thread was frequently used in home sewn clothing,
often with the use of several different colors to finish the length of a seam
line in order to make use of every scrap of thread.
Best regards,
Andrea Moore
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo horn
Date: 10 Dec 1998 08:45:11 +0100
I agree with those who have suggested some kind of
wax to bring out the luster in buffalo horn.
In my experience no amount of polishing will make
it "shine" (but then I'm pretty impatient, too.)
Floor or furniture wax works, as do such things as
bear grease and neatsfoot. When I'm making a
buffalo
horn spoon, I use a little bit of vegetable oil.
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 10 Dec 1998 11:21:41 -0500
LOOKS LIKE EVERYONE IS GETTING INTO THE ADVISE PART ON THE BUFFALO HORN
or about a horn : HOW ABOUT MY TWO CENTS WORTH:
BUFFALO horn is similar to cow horn but seems to have a different texture
and depending on what you want as a finish will depend on how you will
work it---it can have a mat finish or be slick and glossy. I never use
steel wool on a horn especially if I want a slick finish it will seem to
embed into the horn and is also is messy to work with. first you must
know that when working horn the grain goes toward the tip and that is the
direction that you should scrape it or polish toward---never in the other
direction since most BUFFALO horns are older and it will seem to lift the
grain up----you can use a piece of glass or a sharp knife to scrape it
just remember the grain direction and always scrape it toward the
tip---you can also carve it using a double cut file and again you file it
toward the tip as much as possible. you can cut flats on it and grooves
quite easily the flats are cut by fileing cross grain and starting from a
groove at the tip and at the end of the flat.
once you get the shape you want start with 320 paper and sand toward the
tip and never cross grain it will leave marks just like wood which are
hard to get out---next after you have attained a smooth finish and you
have most of your scrape marks off use 600 wet or dry paper and again
sand---and I do use water with the paper because it helps to keep the
paper clean NOTE: I DO THIS BEFORE I PLUG THE HORN---
next is the part that most people don't like to do but there is a couple
of secrets that will get you a good seal and fit so that you wont have to
use the wax to get it water tight---take the horn and grind it perfectly
flat on the open end--then go to your scrap wood box and select a 1.00 in
board I usually use pine---set it on your work bench and take a pencil
and set the horn on the board and draw around the horn base as close as
you can---next set the table of your band saw or jig saw off of square by
about 2 or 4 degrees or where the blade is about 87 to 88 degrees this
will cause you to cut one end of the horn plug smaller than the
other---the blade should be so that the bottom of the board the opposite
of where you have scribed is the smaller side---cut on the line that you
drew on the board so that when you finish cutting out the plug you cannot
see any of the line left this is your base for the plug---apply either
elmers glue or 2 part epoxy to the edge quite liberally and force into
the base of the horn the plug should go almost flush with the base of the
horn if not grind a few thousands off or file it off. use the elmers or
the epoxy liberal'y let set until dry and then go back to the grinder
and grind the wood flush with base of the horn---now--select a fine fancy
piece of wood about 1.00 to 2.00 thick this should be plained or ground
flat on one side. I then drill a hole in the center of the applied plug
and install a hickory dowel and glue it in place making sure not to leave
any glue on the outer flat surface---I normally use a 3/8 to 7/16
dowel---after the dowel has dried cut it off about 3/8 to 1/2 in from
the flat surface---take the fancy wood and on the flat side mark it's
center and drill with the same drill that you used for the dowel but hold
your depth at about 5/8 max I also take a file and chamfer the edges of
the dowel slightly----NOTE i DO NOT INSTALL A DOWEL IF I AM GOING TO PUT
IN A BRASS FILLER PLUG IN THE END OF THE HORN---now with your elmers coat
the surface of the fancy wood that you drilled on and press down on the
dowel until the fancy wood is flush and flat with the horn. sometimes you
have to champher the hole in the fancy wood or make it a bit larger to
get the wood to lay flat--- You will be able to shape or carve this to
your hearts desire---NOW back to the plug---go to your local super market
and get some kabob sticks they are usually made of cain and shaped
round---and are of pretty consistent diameter of .110 to .115---these
will be used to pin the plug in place---you can also use brass tacks if
your heart desires but most older horns used the cain plugs and will
polish up quite nice and not come out if pressed in place and also
glued---now drill holes about 3/8 of an inch from the base of the horn
about ever 1 to 1 1/2 inches around the horn apply glue and force
the kabob stick into the holes usually try for a fit that I have to tap
the pins in place and cut them flush with the horn.
YOU NOW HAVE A HORN THAT SHOULD BE WATER TIGHT--TEST IT BY
BLOWING THRU THE DRILLED END IF YOU WISH---
Finish shaping the plug and the upper end of the horn now sand the horn
again starting with 320 and progressing to 600 paper always sanding with
the grain especially on the horn. you can progress to 1200 paper if you
wish or and get pink or blue scower bright from the local hardware store
this is equivalent to 3- OOO or 4-OOOO steel woll
and gives you a good matt surface and almost a polish on the horn. If
the horn is white or light colored and you wish to age it and make it
look old now is the time to stain it----TO STAIN THE HORN---NOT THE
WOOD---I use a product that i found several years ago called "OLD BONES"
it is made and marketed by "Howard Robinson firearms and Assessories,
Post Office Box 1397, Lawrenceburg , Ky. 40342. This is a concentrate
so depending on how dark you wish to stain the horn apply accordingly and
let dry--It can be thinned with water and several coats applied to get
the color you desire. to stain the wood I use magic maple mystery stain
on maple or any other water base stain on walnut or other wood that has
been used on the base---I re-sand the plug after staining and apply a
sealer and a finish---NOTE:SCRIMSHAW HORNS ARE DIFFERENT AND THE
FOLLOWING MUST BE DONE. I DO NOT STAIN A SCRIMSHAW HORN UNTIL AFTER THE
SCRATCHING IS FINISHED
Now you have a finished horn unless you wish a gloss or slick finish that
you will be scrimshawing---If you are going to scrimshaw the horn surface
must be perfectly slick without andy marks or sandpaper marks that can be
seen with a glass---to get this slick surface I normally use fine car
rubbing compound and apply it onto the palm of my hand and start
rubbing---just as the old whalers uses pumice to slick out a whales tooth
so that it could be scratched on---i SIT AND WATCH TV AND RUB THE
HORN---it takes several hrs to get this finish so be patient and you will
appreciate the cost of fine horns---and it takes a lot of elbow grease to
get done---scratch the horn and apply the stain as above since there is
oil in the rubbing compound it will take several coats to get the color
you need sometimes I use the stain straight from the bottle without
deleting it---
finishing off a BUFFALO horn I only use the rubbing compound and a lot of
rubbing--some people will use a buffing wheel with white ruge on it to
get the initial slick and to save some time but I still use the compound
to get my final finish---the buffing wheel speeds up the finishing
process but it also drives oil into the horn and makes it more difficult
to get it to take a stain if you wish to age or antique the
horn---normally BUFFALO horn will not require a stain.
KRAMER SHOULD COME ON LINE AND GIVE SOME EXAMPLES OF FINISH---FOR THE
STAIN YOU CAN USE WHAT EVER YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH I NORMALLY USE A
WATER BASE STAIN ON ALL WOODS EXCEPT MAPLE AND USE THE MAGIC MAPLE ON IT
---THE MAGIC MAPLE IS A ACID BASED STAIN AND MUST BE KILLED PRIOR TO
SEALING OR FINISHING---
i WROTE THIS IN HOPES OF NOT GETTING INTO 50 MSG'S REGARDING FINISHING A
HORN---PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR BEING SO DETAIL AND BEING SO SPECIFIC BUT I
HOPE IT WILL HELP SOME OF YOU OUT THERE WHO ARE DOING YOUR FIRST HORN.
THE HORN MAN FROM OHIO WHO IS ALWAYS AT FRIENDSHIP (WILBORN I BELIEVE IS
HIS NAME OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT)IS THE ONE WHO TAUGHT ME THE ABOVE AND IT
HAS WORKED WELL FOR ME WITH A FEW ADDED METHOLOGIES THAT i HAVE ADDED FOR
MYSELF---WILBORN SELLS HORNS AND KITS ALL OF THE HIGHEST QUALITY
HIS NAME AND ADDRESS IS AS FOLLOWS---
karl wilborn
5073 townsley rd
cedervill, Ohio 45314
phone number 513-766-5415
his prices range from about $20 for a small horn to about $40.00 for a
large horn and his daughter is a excellent scrimshawer---or he has other
people that scratch for him---the prices above are for plain horns of the
highest quality---you can specify the color and size to him when you
order and he will also match a pair of horns for you if you have a flint
gun---HE HAS ALWAYS GIVEN ME GOOD QUALITY AND SERVICE. I never have been
disappointed in a order from him--normally there is only a minimum amount
of finish required to get a quality finished horn----
I hope I have been of some service to the list---
"Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida 34684
1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com
On Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:00:16 -0500 MacRaith@mail.swbell.net writes:
>Tom,
> I used a couple of coats of automotive wax on my buffler horn to
>bring
>out a shine and walnut hulls for a brown dye/stain on my plug. The
>type of
>wax might not be true for the time, but the stain shure is!
>
>Thomas W. Roberts wrote:
>
>> Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate
>technique
>> to bring
>> the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up
>to
>> 1800 grit and
>> it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking
>for
>> an appropriate
>> stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this
>> thing and don't
>> want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far,
>it's
>> only horn,
>> wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of
>elbow
>> grease.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo horn
Date: 10 Dec 1998 11:41:54 -0500
if you use car rubbing compound or pumice mixed with oil it will make
them shine and also adds to the color and life of the horn---just as
saddle soap adds to the life of leather.
"Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida 34684
1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:45:11 +0100 Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
writes:
>I agree with those who have suggested some kind of
>wax to bring out the luster in buffalo horn.
>In my experience no amount of polishing will make
>it "shine" (but then I'm pretty impatient, too.)
>Floor or furniture wax works, as do such things as
>bear grease and neatsfoot. When I'm making a
>buffalo
>horn spoon, I use a little bit of vegetable oil.
>Allen Chronister
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 10 Dec 1998 12:40:11 -0600
Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:
> . . . I remember that it was common to see people collect and save nails
> after pulling them out of old lumber.
Indeed, early in the westward expansion, people would sometimes burn
down their old houses (particularly the doors that had a lot of nails)
to salvage the nails to take with them westward. Realizing this waste,
governments enacted laws to discourage this.
Maybe I should look it up first, but I remember there are some claims
that nailer boys could make 200 nails an hour. Being an amateur
blacksmith, that seems impossible. Have you ever heard the saying
"Never missed a lick"? To make that many nails, indeed you couldn't
afford one missapplied hammer blow. And of course they had "too many
irons in the fire."
Iron Burner
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 10 Dec 1998 13:45:00 -0600
Washtahay-
This is the way I build horns, FWIW. Most of it is based on examining
original horns and figuring out which, of the tools available, left the
visible tool marks.
I pick out a good horn to start off with. Dairy cattle tend to have
better horns-finer grain structure, with a smoother inside. Beef
cattle-especially range cattle-tend to have coarser horns, with ridges
inside. They also seem to have more green than I like!
Once I have selected a horn, i cut off the large end square. Then I cut
off the tip and drill it. I use a 3/16" drill for this, then run a home
made tapered reamer in to open the hole to a taper so it is about 1/4" at
the largest.
If need be, I clean up the horn some with a rasp, file any details I want
to use-like a ring for the strap, then go to scraping. I use a steel
cabinet scraper, and scrape from the large end towards the tip.
Once the horn is rough-scraped, I stick the large end in boiling water til
it softens. I press in a tapered wood form (finished with beeswax) to make
the end circular, and let the horn cool. My tapered forms are marked off
with a series of rings, each ring indicating a 1/4" increase in diameter.
While the horn is cooling, I use a lathe to turn out a plug. The plug
should taper slightly-about 3/16" in diameter over an inch-where it fits
into the horn. The outside I usually copy off various originals shown in
books or in museums. I also hollow the inside of the plug to make it
lighter, having seen this on several original plugs.
When the plug is turned, I set the horn in an oven for about 15 minutes at
150 degrees F. This melts the wax on the form, so it will release easily.
I pull the form and insert the plug. Usually I wind up having to fit the
plug a bit.
When the plug is in place, I drill and pin like Hawk mentioned. I scrape
the horn lightly to remove any marks left from the earlier work, then buff
it by hand with jeweler's rouge on a leather belt. Then I buff it with
beeswax on a piece of canvas or denim.
I make the spout plug out of hardwood, usually hickory, osage, or ash.
The plug portion should taper slightly-makes it a lot easier to pull out of
the horn. Again, I usually turn these on the lathe.
I finish the wood with whatever comes handy-really! The plug the horn I
use most of the time is pine, finished with multiple coats of beeswax
melted in. (Do I need to say you probably shouldn't have fire around a
horn filled with powder?) I attach the strap by whatever method seems
appropriate-often I use a staple made of brass wire (brazing rod)-at the
large end. Normally I just tie the strap around the small end. Sometimes
I carefully drill holes and add a staple there also.
Most of the time when I make a horn, I have an illustration of an original
in front of me. I copy the construction techniques, shapes, etc from this.
Does this sound like production work? To some extent it is-period
production techniques adapted for modern one-off work. I tend to copy
horns made "for the trade" rather than the one-off custom horns. Back
then, techniques were used by horn makers to produce horns that would sell
at the going price. I've seen records that indicate a typical retail price
of fifty to seventy-five cents per horn in the years 1800-1840. This at a
time when a Hawken rifle sold for $20. (All prices St. Louis)
By the HBC at least, horns were of standardized sizes as well.
In modern terms, an equivalent copy of that $20 Hawken might cost
$1000-$1500. That fifty cent trade horn would sell for $25 to $37.50.
There aren't a lot of decent copies of trade horns made today in that price
range. Don't get me wrong here-there are good horns available in that
price range, but for some reason production horn makers today don't seem to
copy trade horns.
Using the Track of The Wolf catalog (because I have it handy) the closest
to the horn I am describing costs about $48. I can't help but wonder what
modern mass-production would price a trade horn at....
LongWalker c. du B.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 10 Dec 1998 16:46:42 -0800
Well, that's what I like about this forum. I ask for advice and many
experienced folks offer me the benefit of their wisdom. I now have
several options from which to choose. Although I did succumb to modern
tools in the interest of finishing in this lifetime, I am comitted to
avoiding modern materials for the construction or for the finish so the
modern polishes are out. Since the horn is already constructed, it will
also be necessary to carefully apply the stain to only the wood and
avoid polishing the horn until the wood has been stained. If I ever do
this again, I will certainly take advantage of the suggestion to use
pre-made skewers for the butt plug retention pins instead of carving
them from scratch. One other departure I made from the commonly
suggested construction technique was to avoid the boiling to force the
horn round. Instead, I shaped the butt plug to match the natural,
slightly oval, shape of the horn. It was a bit of a challenge but it
turned out quite well and I think it was worth the effort. Thank you
all for your quick and willing advice. Hopefully, this thing will be
pourin' powder real soon!
Tom
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <yrrw@cyberramp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 10 Dec 1998 18:45:17 -0600
Dennis,
I got the recipe for this stain from the back of a old Dixie catalog. It
works great, but it will raise the grain if the piece has not been properly
whiskered. It produces a real nice reddish brown color when followed up
with linseed oil. The color varies with the amount of tobacco and the brand
used in the ammonia.
Pendleton
----------
> From: Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:09 PM
>
> Larry,
> Ammonia?? I'll be damned..I have alwys just used the juice outta my can
I
> keep in the shop for the purpose, then mix it with warm linseed...I will
> have to try the ammonia..What does it do? Make it richer?? Deeper??
> Dennis
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yellow rose/pendleton <yrrw@cyberramp.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:12 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
>
>
> >I forgot to mention the stain on the butt plug. I don't know if I would
use
> >a nitric acid stain on a horn, but I'll tell you what will work real
nice.
> >Take a plug of chewing tobacco and tear it up into a pint jar. Then fill
> >the jar with household ammonia. Put a lid on it and forget about it for
a
> >couple of weeks. This makes a fine stain for maple.
> >Pendleton
> >
> >--
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 10 Dec 1998 19:01:31 -0500
Thanks.. I'll try it.. Hell, I love checking out things new...
Wonder how it will work on Red Oak??
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----
>Dennis,
> I got the recipe for this stain from the back of a old Dixie catalog. It
>works great, but it will raise the grain if the piece has not been properly
>whiskered. It produces a real nice reddish brown color when followed up
>with linseed oil. The color varies with the amount of tobacco and the brand
>used in the ammonia.
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com>
>> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
>> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:09 PM
>>
>> Larry,
>> Ammonia?? I'll be damned..I have alwys just used the juice outta my can
>I
>> keep in the shop for the purpose, then mix it with warm linseed...I will
>> have to try the ammonia..What does it do? Make it richer?? Deeper??
>> Dennis
>>
>> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: yellow rose/pendleton <yrrw@cyberramp.net>
>> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
>>
>>
>> >I forgot to mention the stain on the butt plug. I don't know if I would
>use
>> >a nitric acid stain on a horn, but I'll tell you what will work real
>nice.
>> >Take a plug of chewing tobacco and tear it up into a pint jar. Then fill
>> >the jar with household ammonia. Put a lid on it and forget about it for
>a
>> >couple of weeks. This makes a fine stain for maple.
>> >Pendleton
>> >
>> >--
>>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 10 Dec 1998 23:19:02 -0800
Phil,
I got my buffalo horns from Moscow Hide & Fur in Idaho. Their website address
is:
http//www.hideandfur.com/. They are priced by size and I thought the price
was very reasonable. When I first got them they looked pretty rough but they
have turned out lookin'
real good.
Tom
Philip C. Rogers, Jr. wrote:
> Along those same lines, could someone point me to someone who has the
> raw buffalo horns for sale??
>
> Phil Rogers
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NaugaMok@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 11 Dec 1998 03:18:00 EST
In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write:
<< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's
manufactured
nails?
Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A
calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our
present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb. As Long Walker points out in
his message about period powderhorns, this was when a 50 cent trade horn was
available. Today, according to his calculations that horn would sell for $25
- $37.50, so the 6d nails would be roughly $3 - $5/lb by today's comparison.
Also we must consider what the wages were in those days. $1/day was good
money then, so 8lbs of 6d nails would be almost 1/2 day's pay. Seems I
remember seeing somewhere bread cost about 2 cents/loaf about this time. With
this in mind, nails were expensive.
< I remember that it was common to see people collect and save nails
after pulling them out of old lumber. >>
I remember doing exactly that! While Dad bought new nails for new
construction, almost all the normal repairs around the farm were done with
"recycled" nails. Our "kid projects" were done with the recycled nails too
unless we wanted a session with Dad out behind the barn! Woe be unto those
who used Dad's new nails in a tree house! The modern "throw away mentality"
did not exist back then. Iron was hard to come by in any form which was a
boon to all blacksmiths because they were able to take almost any iron object
that wasn't used & turn it into something that was. Like you point out, worn
clothing was patched until it just wouldn't hold any more patches, then turned
into quilts. You didn't mention the "rag rugs" we made for our floors or were
used for "stuffing" for stuffed animal toys when such luxuries were made, or
used as hand & dish towels, or bandages, or -----. Worn out clothing was far
from being useless! I didn't know you could actualy buy little pieces of
cloth JUST for cleaning guns until I was well into my teens! I grew up with
the mentality that John Cramer uses as a tag line: "wear it out, use it up, or
do without" -- I know I didn't get that right, but we've all seen it numerous
times in his messages. This is the same mentality that our forefathers had.
NM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 11 Dec 1998 06:46:28 -0600
-----Original Message-----
>In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write:
>
><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's
>manufactured
> nails?
>
>Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A
>calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our
>present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb.
That's 6d = 6 cents per hundred
Iron Burner
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Sam Keller <skel_98@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Announcement
Date: 11 Dec 1998 23:48:18 +1100 (EST)
I would also be interested in your patterns.
Y.M.U.S.
Sleeping Bear
---Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> wrote:
>
> Washtahay-
> As I discussed about 18 months ago, I have begun making drawings and
> construction notes on items from my small personal collection of
original
> accoutremounts. Drawings and notes completed to date include several
> powder measures, and full size patterns and notes for two different
hunting
> pouches.
> Please inquire directly of me for particulars.
> LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn
Date: 11 Dec 1998 10:45:49 EST
Thank you for the pricing information of old nails, I figured they must have
been expensive judging by the royal treatment. I grew up in a very poor
neighborhood and it was interesting to observe the innovative things people
used to do to make things go farther and make due. The nails were pulled and
straightened, as perviously mentioned, but the old lumber was stacked for
reuse too. Any type of wire was carefully wound and stored.
Regarding reuse of worn clothing--as many of you are saying, times change and
the old ways make way for new attitudes. Patches used to be a common sight
and it was not considered a disgrace at all to wear neatly patched clothing.
In fact, mothers and wives took considerable pride in their ability to turn
out a fine looking patch that performed well. In fact, a lot of folks knew
how to sew a good patch.
I have watched with interest the recent powder horn discussion. I wonder if
someone would mind telling me who invented the powder horn and the reasoning
behind the selection of materials? I remember going with my father to feed
silage and I noticed many of the cattle with broken horns. Was this a problem
with powder horns--why or why not?
Could someone please tell me a source where I can order the Dixie Gun Works
catalog and the Amazon Dry Goods catalog? Thank you.
Very best regards,
Andrea Moore
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn
Date: 11 Dec 1998 10:41:36 -0500
forgot to note in my input that i like to use ebony fiddle ajusters for
plugs they work great -seal good and are slightly tapered and do not
shrink or swell---have seen several originals that used the same thing so
followed along that line----
"Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida 34684
1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Philip Huvler <huv@mail.bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 11 Dec 1998 10:17:07 -0500 (EST)
At 06:46 AM 12/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NaugaMok@aol.com <NaugaMok@aol.com>
>
>
>>In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write:
>>
>><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's
>>manufactured
>> nails?
>>
>>Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A
>>calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our
>>present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb.
>
>That's 6d = 6 cents per hundred
>
>Iron Burner
>
>Rag rugs were mentioned as being a way to recycle cloth various articles
that I have read showed they were for the beds not the floor even though
they were called rag rugs interesting thought
> Dummy 'still alive just been mute;)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rag Rugs (floor & bed)
Date: 11 Dec 1998 11:48:28 EST
In a message dated 12/11/98 8:20:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
huv@mail.bright.net writes:
<< Rag rugs were mentioned as being a way to recycle cloth various articles
that I have read showed they were for the beds not the floor even though
they were called rag rugs interesting thought >>
Interesting to me is rag rugs for the bed! Were they used for blankets and
made similiar to rugs for the floor: tearing strips of cloth goods, braiding
and then whipping the edges to form a coil? If this is the case, the bed rugs
would have been extremely heavy and thick. Or were they perhaps instead used
as a matress pad or incorporated into the matress itself, or other? I feel
like I am missing something really obvious here and would like to hear more
about bed rugs, how they were made, intended purpose, how they differed from
their cousin the braided floor rug, etc.
Best regards,
Andrea Moore
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn
Date: 11 Dec 1998 10:51:22 -0600
Washtahay-
At 10:45 AM 12/11/98 EST, you wrote:
> Thank you for the pricing information of old nails, I figured they must have
>been expensive judging by the royal treatment. I grew up in a very poor
>neighborhood and it was interesting to observe the innovative things people
>used to do to make things go farther and make due. The nails were pulled and
>straightened, as perviously mentioned, but the old lumber was stacked for
>reuse too. Any type of wire was carefully wound and stored.
Old habits die hard, some of us still do that. The first step in building
a project is to conceive it, the second is to adapt it to the materials
available or on hand.
> I have watched with interest the recent powder horn discussion. I wonder if
>someone would mind telling me who invented the powder horn and the reasoning
>behind the selection of materials?
good question, open to a lot of debate. The earliest use of horns for
powder that I have seen dated is ca. mid 1500s. There is a drawing of an
artilleryman with a horn on the deck. Probably in use much prior to that.
Horns have been used for a long time to keep things dry.
It might help you to think of horn as the pre-industrial version of
plastic. Horn is, to some extent, thermoplastic. It can be easily shaped
with hand tools, heated and formed, and lasts a fairly long time. It is
fairly water-resistant.
> I remember going with my father to feed
>silage and I noticed many of the cattle with broken horns. Was this a
problem
>with powder horns--why or why not?
Horns broke-witness the number of original horns with repairs. When
scraped thin, it can be brittle. It has a tendency to get brittle in
extreme cold as well-both of the horns I have broken were cracked when hit
or bumped on rock when the ambient temperature was around -20 F.
>
> Could someone please tell me a source where I can order the Dixie Gun Works
>catalog
Dixie-1-800-238-6785
>and the Amazon Dry Goods catalog
Can't help ya there.
LongWalker c. du B.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn
Date: 11 Dec 1998 14:29:45 EST
Question:
> > I have watched with interest the recent powder horn discussion. I wonder
> if someone would mind telling me who invented the powder horn and the
> reasoning behind the selection of materials?
> good question, open to a lot of debate. The earliest use of horns for
> powder that I have seen dated is ca. mid 1500s. Probably in use much prior
> to that. Horns have been used for a long time to keep things dry.
Horns have been used as containers since at least the Bronze Age. Re: Romans
using ram's horns as drinking vessels. Horns were also used as shipping
containers for powder, but were in raw unfinished condition. They were
certainly plugged, but I don't know if they were usable as delivered. Many
old trade lists mention X number of horns of powder in their manifests. Does
anyone know anything about these horns. Could a strap or thong be added and
the horn used and carried, or were they merely shipping containers?
TOF
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Darrel William Grubbs <grubbsd@rocketmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: the price of nails....
Date: 11 Dec 1998 12:48:43 -0800 (PST)
> Blacksmiths made some of the nails, but they were more commonly made
by
> "nailers". Many nailers were women & children who made nails for
spending
> money. Many home hearths were devised with small forge areas which
were fed
> with coals from the cook fire & "fanned" with a small bellows.
About the only
> special tooling needed for nail production were the "headers" which
were
> simply moulds or in proper terms, "swages" used to keep the head
shape & size
> of a specific nail size uniform. Some nailers got quite creative in
> decorating the heads of their nails with the use of smaller hammers
& punches.
>
> This info was gleaned from several old issures of ABANA's
(Artist-Blacksmith's
> Association of North America) magazine: "The Anvil's Ring" & NWBA's
(North
> West Blacksmith's Association) magazine "Hot Iron News".
>
> NM
>
> ------------------------------
> The price of nails Think about the name 4 penny 6penny 8 penny...I
have heard originals that they werename this due to the worth of a
nail of that particular size.. Don't have dates on the sorrs
darrel
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn
Date: 11 Dec 1998 16:01:23 -0500
you might also think that a horn was a unit of measure similar to todays
lb of powder
most of your old horns will hold about 1 lb of powder on the large size
horn give or take a bit---
"Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida 34684
1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:29:45 EST ThisOldFox@aol.com writes:
>Question:
>> > I have watched with interest the recent powder horn
>discussion. I wonder
>> if someone would mind telling me who invented the powder horn and
>the
>> reasoning behind the selection of materials?
>> good question, open to a lot of debate. The earliest use
>of horns for
>> powder that I have seen dated is ca. mid 1500s. Probably in use
>much prior
>> to that. Horns have been used for a long time to keep things dry.
>
>Horns have been used as containers since at least the Bronze Age. Re:
>Romans
>using ram's horns as drinking vessels. Horns were also used as
>shipping
>containers for powder, but were in raw unfinished condition. They
>were
>certainly plugged, but I don't know if they were usable as delivered.
>Many
>old trade lists mention X number of horns of powder in their
>manifests. Does
>anyone know anything about these horns. Could a strap or thong be
>added and
>the horn used and carried, or were they merely shipping containers?
>
>TOF
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 12 Dec 1998 02:13:36 GMT
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:18:00 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write:
>
><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's
>manufactured
> nails?=20
>
>Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails.=
A
>calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in =
our
>present day nail sizes like "6d" =3D 6 cents/lb. As Long Walker points =
out in
>his message about period powderhorns, this was when a 50 cent trade horn=
was
>available. Today, according to his calculations that horn would sell =
for $25
>- $37.50, so the 6d nails would be roughly $3 - $5/lb by today's =
comparison.
>Also we must consider what the wages were in those days. $1/day was =
good
>money then, so 8lbs of 6d nails would be almost 1/2 day's pay. Seems I
>remember seeing somewhere bread cost about 2 cents/loaf about this time.=
With
>this in mind, nails were expensive.
>=20
Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking
demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes
meant. He told me that was the price per hundred nails. 6d being
much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper.
I don't recall any published sources, but there might be something in
one of my Alexander or Sloane books.
Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 11 Dec 1998 19:34:48 -0700
To see a neat chart with hand made nails, write to TREMONT NAIL CO. Elm
Street at Route 28, P.O.Box 111, Wareham, MA 02571.
Ask for their "Old Fashioned CUT NAILS 1819" display board, there's 20
different styles of nails from this Colonial Company, originally a cotton
mill in 1812 and converted to producing "cut nails" for the ship industry in
1819. Comes with a little history about nails, forged and cut, you'll find
it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had my nail board for a
few years.
Buck
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
-----Original Message-----
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:18:00 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write:
>
><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's
>manufactured
> nails?
>
>Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A
>calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our
>present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb. As Long Walker points out
in
>his message about period powderhorns, this was when a 50 cent trade horn
was
>available. Today, according to his calculations that horn would sell for
$25
>- $37.50, so the 6d nails would be roughly $3 - $5/lb by today's
comparison.
>Also we must consider what the wages were in those days. $1/day was good
>money then, so 8lbs of 6d nails would be almost 1/2 day's pay. Seems I
>remember seeing somewhere bread cost about 2 cents/loaf about this time.
With
>this in mind, nails were expensive.
>
Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking
demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes
meant. He told me that was the price per hundred nails. 6d being
much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper.
I don't recall any published sources, but there might be something in
one of my Alexander or Sloane books.
Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 11 Dec 1998 22:48:25 -0600
For a web link to Tremont Nail try:
<<http://www.mazenails.com/>http://www.mazenails.com/>
John...
At 07:34 PM 12/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>To see a neat chart with hand made nails, write to TREMONT NAIL CO. Elm
>Street at Route 28, P.O.Box 111, Wareham, MA 02571.
>
>Ask for their "Old Fashioned CUT NAILS 1819" display board, there's 20
>different styles of nails from this Colonial Company, originally a cotton
>mill in 1812 and converted to producing "cut nails" for the ship industry=
in
>1819. Comes with a little history about nails, forged and cut, you'll find
>it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had my nail board for a
>few years.
>
>Buck
>dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
><http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/>http://www.teleport.com/~walking/
clark/
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roy Parker <rparker7@ix.netcom.com>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 7:17 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
>
>
>On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:18:00 EST, you wrote:
>
>>In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write:
>>
>><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's
>>manufactured
>> nails?
>>
>>Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails.=
=A0 A
>>calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in=
our
>>present day nail sizes like "6d" =3D 6 cents/lb.=A0 As Long Walker points=
out
>in
>>his message about period powderhorns, this was when a 50 cent trade horn
>was
>>available.=A0 Today, according to his calculations that horn would sell=
for
>$25
>>- $37.50, so the 6d nails would be roughly $3 - $5/lb by today's
>comparison.
>>Also we must consider what the wages were in those days.=A0 $1/day was=
good
>>money then, so 8lbs of=A0 6d nails would be almost 1/2 day's pay.=A0 Seems=
I
>>remember seeing somewhere bread cost about 2 cents/loaf about this time.
>With
>>this in mind, nails were expensive.
>>
>
>Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking
>demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes
>meant.=A0 He told me that was the price per hundred nails.=A0 6d being
>much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper.
>
>I don't recall any published sources, but there might be something in
>one of my Alexander or Sloane books.
>
>
>Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including=
"BS".
>1999 SW Rendezvous info available at
<http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus>http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 12 Dec 1998 09:58:28 -0700
Thanks John,
Was wondering if they had got on line.
YF&B
Buck
-----Original Message-----
For a web link to Tremont Nail try:
<<http://www.mazenails.com/>http://www.mazenails.com/>
John...
At 07:34 PM 12/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>To see a neat chart with hand made nails, write to TREMONT NAIL CO. Elm
>Street at Route 28, P.O.Box 111, Wareham, MA 02571.
>
>Ask for their "Old Fashioned CUT NAILS 1819" display board, there's 20
>different styles of nails from this Colonial Company, originally a cotton
>mill in 1812 and converted to producing "cut nails" for the ship industry
in
>1819. Comes with a little history about nails, forged and cut, you'll find
>it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had my nail board for a
>few years.
>
>Buck
>dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
><http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/>http://www.teleport.com/~walking/
clark/
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roy Parker <rparker7@ix.netcom.com>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 7:17 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
>
>
>On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:18:00 EST, you wrote:
>
>>In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write:
>>
>><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's
>>manufactured
>> nails?
>>
>>Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A
>>calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in
our
>>present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb. As Long Walker points out
>in
>>his message about period powderhorns, this was when a 50 cent trade horn
>was
>>available. Today, according to his calculations that horn would sell for
>$25
>>- $37.50, so the 6d nails would be roughly $3 - $5/lb by today's
>comparison.
>>Also we must consider what the wages were in those days. $1/day was good
>>money then, so 8lbs of 6d nails would be almost 1/2 day's pay. Seems I
>>remember seeing somewhere bread cost about 2 cents/loaf about this time.
>With
>>this in mind, nails were expensive.
>>
>
>Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking
>demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes
>meant. He told me that was the price per hundred nails. 6d being
>much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper.
>
>I don't recall any published sources, but there might be something in
>one of my Alexander or Sloane books.
>
>
>Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including
"BS".
>1999 SW Rendezvous info available at
<http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus>http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NaugaMok@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 12 Dec 1998 12:30:15 EST
In a message dated 98-12-11 21:39:56 EST, you write:
<< Comes with a little history about nails, forged and cut, you'll find
it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had my nail board for a
few years. >>
Would you mind sharing a bit of that info? It's my understanding "cut" nails
were one of the first things mass produced in the US. They were cut with a
shear from flat stock & "headed" by a machine. Is this correct?
NM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NaugaMok@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the price of nails....
Date: 12 Dec 1998 12:30:13 EST
In a message dated 98-12-11 15:54:26 EST, you write:
<< Think about the name 4 penny 6penny 8 penny...I
have heard originals that they werename this due to the worth of a
nail of that particular size >>
Correct, but as Iron Burner & others have pointed out, it was per hundred
instead of per pound. Today's nails reflect the different sizes the origional
hand made nails had. In other words, the bigger the nail, the more it cost.
NM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NaugaMok@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rag Rugs (floor & bed)
Date: 12 Dec 1998 13:46:12 EST
In a message dated 98-12-11 12:08:17 EST, you write:
<< tearing strips of cloth goods, braiding
and then whipping the edges to form a coil? >>
Though probably not a period method of making rag rugs, we had a lady in the
farming comunity where I grew up who wove rag rugs on a loom. I can never
remember which is warp & which is weft, but the rags were torn into strips,
twisted tightly then used as the "thread" that went across the width -- weft??
Seems I remember her calling the lengthwise threads -- actualy about like kite
string, "warp". Maybe I got that backwards 'cuz it was nearly 40 years ago
that I watched her make rugs. I often wonder what became of her loom. Dad &
I had many hours wrapped up in it's repairs like replacing the wires in the
part that packed the weft into position. Curiosity got the best of me -- Mr
Webster's book of words sez I remembered right. My Grandmother did the
brading & sewing into a coil, so we had both ways.
NM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NaugaMok@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn
Date: 12 Dec 1998 13:46:08 EST
In a message dated 98-12-11 11:06:08 EST, you write:
<< Could someone please tell me a source where I can order the Dixie Gun Works
catalog and the Amazon Dry Goods catalog? Thank you.
>>
I see others have sent the Dixie phone #, so I won't duplicate. The wife
finaly found this one:
Amazon Dry Goods
2218 East 11th St.
Davenport, IA 52803
(319) 322-6800
General catalog $2, pattern catalog $5
Unfortunatley, no web address. She did find the address on line at:
http://www.toreadors.com/costume/mailorder.html
NM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ron" <cstmzd@ida.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 12 Dec 1998 13:32:43 -0700
Louis,
I bought some Bearberry (Kinnikinnick) and Mullien tea at a health food
store here. The mullien tea looks more like they used the flowers than the
leaves. Is this right or do I need to find a source for the leaves? Smells
like some stuff I used to smoke long ago. <G>
As for red willow bark, do you use the outer bark or inner or both?
Thanks
YMOS,
Ron Chamberlain
----------
> From: Sickler, Louis L <louis.l.sickler@lmco.com>
> To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
> Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 6:30 AM
>
> Gail,
>
> Here in Denver, CO we have a store called Alfalfa's that carries a
> LOT of natural herbs. Most of what I use comes from there and is already
> fairly finely ground/crushed.
> This especially applies to the angelica, mullein and sumac berries (which
I
> didn't mention before, sorry). I couldn't tell angelica in the forest
from
> hemlock - a real BAD thing (not that they are similar, but you get my
> drift). It is just SAFER that way. I do gather my own red willow bark
from
> my favorite elk hunting beaver pond area and kinnickinnick from anywhere
> west of here that I happen to be hiking. These are EASY to identify and I
> feel OK using them.
>
> But, yes, all the ingredients are fine, small parts. The kinnickinnick
> berries are already pretty dry naturally, they're not like cherries or
> anything. I usually just hang a whole bunch of leaves and berries as they
> were gathered in my basement room for a while until all are dry. Then
break
> up the leaves with my fingers while separating the berries. Like I said
> before, I try to remove the seeds from the berries as much as possible,
they
> are large compared with the berry material and don't taste especially
good.
>
> I guess you could say it smokes rather hot, but in a clay pipe tobacco
gets
> pretty warm too. I use a clay pipe that was excavated from a pipe
> manufacturing business in central Ohio. The pipe was from a trash area
that
> was dated to be in use before 1840, how lucky! I do not recall any
> references to mountain men rolling their own cigarettes out of
> kinnickinnick, etc. , but the references to clay pipes (and even white
men
> owning and using pipestone pipes) are numerous.
>
> As for the taste, it's hard to describe, but is very nice. Once you smell
> the odor of red willow bark wafting through the camp, you'll never forget
> it. It's sort of like the stuff left over from the manufacture of ropes,
> that we're not supposed to smoke - very distinctive. It is not harsh at
all
> and can be inhaled without irritation. I do not consider myself a smoker
&
> do not smoke this stuff a lot, but when I want the taste & odor of my
last
> camp out, I break out the old pipe.
>
> Hope this helps some.
>
> YMHOS,
> Red Coyote
>
> > ----------
> > From: Gail Carbiener
> > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 1998 14:18
> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
> >
> > Louis:
> > Do you crush the mixture to a fine small parts.. You probably dry
the
> > berries in the sun. Sounds like the mixture might smoke pretty hot. Can
> > you
> > describe the taste. I will need to look up the other two items,
angelica
> > root and mullein. Thanks for the info.
> > Gail
> > Living History MtMan
> > =================
> >
> >
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tremont Nail Company
Date: 12 Dec 1998 15:07:03 -0700
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE25E1.133D3400
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK folks you asked for it; Nails in their crudest form date back to 3000 =
B.C., the Romans hand-forged them and they have been found in =
excavations and sunken ships from the eriod 500 A.D.
When our ancestors first stepped from the Mayflower onto that soil that =
that was to become Plymouth County, they discovered a soil which was =
essentially sandy and difficult to cultivate. As they plowed for their =
first crops, they noticed that the earth yielded small deposits of crude =
iron ore mixed with the ooze of the swampy regions. from this ore and =
with crude smelters, they separated the metal from the ore and began the =
fashioning of nails and tools similar to those they had left behind when =
they sailed into the unknown.
Nailmaking in America during the Revolutionary period was confined to =
small shops where as amany as a thousand nails per day could be hand =
forged by skilled "nailers". After the Revolution, demand grew rapidly, =
farmers and their families would hand-make nails during the winter =
months to supplement their incomes. Demand further increased however, =
and supplies of hand-made nails were insufficent.
During the late 1700's the first cut nail making machines appeared, the =
first machine cut and "head" a nail in one operation was invented by =
Ezekiel Reed of Bridgewater, MA.
The original nail factory was built on the site of an old cotton mill =
(Parker Mills) which had been shelled and burned by the British in the =
War of 1812. With the advent of the cut nail making machines came the =
establishment of Parker Mills, nail company in 1819, by Isaac and Jared =
Pratt. This later became known as the Tremont Nail Company.
From PENNYWEIGHT to PENNY (a small "d" indicates penny) Originally the =
terms 8d and 10d were used to denote prices of nails per hundred count. =
However, due to the fluctuations of prices this significance was lost =
and the terms were retained to designate sizes. Example 2d =3D 1 inch, =
8d =3D 2 1/2 inch, 100d =3D 8 inch.
Still produced are , brads, fine finish, shingle, box, clout, common, =
slating, boat, common rosehead, hihdge, spikes, headless foundry, =
sheathing, firedoor clinch, floor, headless brads, chinch rosehead, =
wrought head, common siding and masonry, all sheet cut nails for those =
wanting the best available 17th century nails.=20
The main building in use today was constructed in 1848 on the site of =
the old fulling mill. Since 1819, Tremont Nail Company has endured =
through all the changes and hurried pace of modern industry. The same =
products are still being produced for customers who prefer the superior =
holding quality and durability of these time tested nails.
For a century and a half sheet cut nails has maintained a reputation for =
skilled nail cutting that has built America throughtout the test of =
time. Tremont Nail Company is America's oldest nail manufacturer.
Well folks now you have the story, write them for a "Nail Card" and the =
next project you can really nail it down.
__________________________________________________
In a message dated 98-12-11 21:39:56 EST, you write:
<< Comes with a little history about nails, forged and cut, you'll find =
it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had my nail board for =
a few years. >>
Would you mind sharing a bit of that info? It's my understanding "cut" =
nails were one of the first things mass produced in the US. They were =
cut with a shear from flat stock & "headed" by a machine. Is this =
correct?
NM =20
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE25E1.133D3400
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D5>O<FONT=20
size=3D2>K</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2> </FONT>folks you asked for it; =
Nails in=20
their crudest form date back to 3000 B.C., the Romans hand-forged them =
and they=20
have been found in excavations and sunken ships from the eriod 500=20
A.D.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D5>W<FONT=20
size=3D2>hen</FONT></FONT> our ancestors first stepped from the =
Mayflower onto=20
that soil that that was to become Plymouth County, they discovered a =
soil which=20
was essentially sandy and difficult to cultivate. As they plowed for =
their first=20
crops, they noticed that the earth yielded small deposits of crude iron =
ore=20
mixed with the ooze of the swampy regions. from this ore and with crude=20
smelters, they separated the metal from the ore and began the fashioning =
of=20
nails and tools similar to those they had left behind when they sailed =
into the=20
unknown.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2> <FONT =
size=3D5>N<FONT=20
size=3D2>ailmaking in America during the Revolutionary period was =
confined to=20
small shops where as amany as a thousand nails per day could be hand =
forged by=20
skilled "nailers". After the Revolution, demand grew rapidly, =
farmers=20
and their families would hand-make nails during the winter months to =
supplement=20
their incomes. Demand further increased however, and supplies of =
hand-made nails=20
were insufficent.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D5><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT size=3D5>D</FONT>uring the late 1700's the first cut nail =
making=20
machines appeared, the first machine cut and "head" a nail in =
one=20
operation was invented by Ezekiel Reed of Bridgewater,=20
MA.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D5><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT size=3D5>T</FONT>he original nail factory was built on =
the site of an=20
old cotton mill (Parker Mills) which had been shelled and burned by the =
British=20
in the War of 1812. With the advent of the cut nail making machines came =
the=20
establishment of Parker Mills, nail company in 1819, by Isaac and Jared =
Pratt.=20
This later became known as the Tremont Nail =
Company.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D5><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT size=3D5></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D5>F<FONT size=3D2>rom PENNYWEIGHT to =
PENNY (a small=20
"d" indicates penny) Originally the terms 8d and 10d were used =
to=20
denote prices of nails per hundred count. However, due to the =
fluctuations of=20
prices this significance was lost and the terms were retained to =
designate=20
sizes. Example 2d =3D 1 inch, 8d =3D 2 1/2 inch, 100d =3D 8=20
inch.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D5><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D5>S<FONT =
size=3D2>till=20
produced are , brads, fine finish, shingle, box, clout, common, slating, =
boat,=20
common rosehead, hihdge, spikes, headless foundry, sheathing, firedoor =
clinch,=20
floor, headless brads, chinch rosehead, wrought head, common siding and =
masonry,=20
all sheet cut nails for those wanting the best available 17th century =
nails.=20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D5><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT size=3D5>T</FONT>he main building in use today was =
constructed in=20
1848 on the site of the old fulling mill. Since 1819, Tremont Nail =
Company has=20
endured through all the changes and hurried pace of modern industry. The =
same=20
products are still being produced for customers who prefer the superior =
holding=20
quality and durability of these time tested =
nails.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D5><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT size=3D5>F</FONT>or a century and a half sheet cut nails =
has=20
maintained a reputation for skilled nail cutting that has built America=20
throughtout the test of time. Tremont Nail Company is America's oldest =
nail=20
manufacturer.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D5><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT size=3D5>W<FONT size=3D2>ell</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2> =
</FONT>folks=20
now you have the story, write them for a "Nail Card" and the =
next=20
project you can really nail it down.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D5><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>__________________________________________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D5><FONT=20
size=3D2>In a message dated 98-12-11 21:39:56 EST, you=20
write:<BR><BR><< Comes with a little history about nails, =
forged and=20
cut, you'll find it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had =
my nail=20
board for a few years. >><BR><BR>Would you mind sharing a bit of =
that=20
info? It's my understanding "cut" nails were one of the =
first=20
things mass produced in the US. They were cut with a shear from =
flat stock=20
& "headed" by a machine. Is this =
correct?<BR><BR>NM =20
<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE25E1.133D3400--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 12 Dec 1998 16:44:16 -0700
Usually folks smoke the mullein leaves rather than the flowers. With red
willow bark (also known as Red Osier Dogwood, cornus species), you smoke the
inner bark. The easiest way to gather it is getting it when the sap is up,
then pealing the outer bark off seperately from the inner bark. Some folks
say that traditionally this inner bark was roasted prior to smoking. I've
never tried that, but will the next time.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 09 Dec 1998 18:15:25 -0800
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_01BE239F.E4B9B2E0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pimout1-int.prodigy.net id AAA116578
Andrea: Talk to Longtrail she can answer you questions if she hasn't
started on answering them and you can't get any better B tan then what sh=
e
sells. I like the way you are going about teaching us. Keep up the good
work my friend. Later Jon T
Longtrail ezra@midrivers.com
----------
Here is my second and final post on fabrics:
For your first rectangle shirt, you may want to work with common fabrics
readily available today and at reasonable cost. Among the choices are
bleached and unbleached muslin. If you call around to your local fabric
stores you might be able to locate some muslin in 36 inch widths which
means
that you have the option of making your garment utilizing the selvages in
the
seams (no seam finishing necessary!). Otherwise, muslin is commonly
available
in 45 inch and sometimes 60 inch widths.
Possibly closest to original homespun in a modern-day fabric is Osnaburg
cloth which should be located along with the muslins at your fabric tradi=
ng
post. Osnaburg is a coarse cotton cloth often made with part waste in it=
,
plain weave, medium to heavy in weight and resembling crash (are you stil=
l
with me?) "Crash" is a coarse fabric having a rough irregular surface
obtained
by weaving thick and uneven yarns. Back to Osnaburg=97it is sometimes us=
ed
unbleached for cement, grain and comparable types of containers.=20
Personally,
I like the rural, pastoral look of Osnaburg but I prefer to not wear it
next
to my skin.
It is important that you pre wash your yardage exactly as you intend to
launder your finished garment. Your yardage will likely shrink pretty
extensively with the first few washings. At least, run it through one
complete laundering cycle before cutting out and sewing your garment. It =
is
a
good idea to purchase some extra fabric to allow for pre wash shrinkage.
I always purchase more fabric than I need for a project. So if you want
too
much fabric I suggest you purchase at least 5 yards or more. The fabrics
types we are discussing (above mention) can shrink a surprising amount in
the
length of the goods.
Here is something I came across in my research and I thought you might b=
e
interested: "Nail" was an archaic unit of measure representing 1/16th of =
a
yard of fabric (2 and =BC inches). It is the exact length of a metal nai=
l
used
in building=97equivalent to the present-day 7d nail? The term "nail" was
commonly used as opposed to inches. As I am thinking about it, nails wer=
e
hand forged by a blacksmith=97would that be correct? Please let me know.
Thanks.
I have a couple of questions I hope someone can answer:
If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would be
required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)?
Can someone please direct me to the best source of braintan?
What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather without ruining the
texture?
Is braintan purchased by the individual skin or other?
Next time I will show you how to draft your own shirt pattern. Bye for
now.
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
Amoore2120@aol.com
=09
----------
------=_NextPart_000_01BE239F.E4B9B2E0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Andrea: Talk to Longtrail she can =
answer you questions if she hasn't started on answering them and you =
can't get any better B tan then what she sells. I like the way you =
are going about teaching us. Keep up the good work my friend. =
Later Jon T<br>Longtrail =
ezra@midrivers.com<br><br>----------<br>From: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Amoore2120@aol.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>Subject: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2<br>Date: Wednesday, =
December 09, 1998 7:42 AM<br><br>Here is my second and final post on =
fabrics:<br><br> For your first rectangle shirt, you may want to =
work with common fabrics<br>readily available today and at reasonable =
cost. Among the choices are<br>bleached and unbleached muslin. =
If you call around to your local fabric<br>stores you might be =
able to locate some muslin in 36 inch widths which means<br>that you =
have the option of making your garment utilizing the selvages in =
the<br>seams (no seam finishing necessary!). Otherwise, muslin is =
commonly available<br>in 45 inch and sometimes 60 inch =
widths.<br><br> Possibly closest to original homespun in a =
modern-day fabric is Osnaburg<br>cloth which should be located along =
with the muslins at your fabric trading<br>post. Osnaburg is a =
coarse cotton cloth often made with part waste in it,<br>plain weave, =
medium to heavy in weight and resembling crash (are you still<br>with =
me?) "Crash" is a coarse fabric having a rough irregular =
surface obtained<br>by weaving thick and uneven yarns. Back to =
Osnaburg=97it is sometimes used<br>unbleached for cement, grain and =
comparable types of containers. Personally,<br>I like the rural, =
pastoral look of Osnaburg but I prefer to not wear it next<br>to my =
skin.<br><br> It is important that you pre wash your yardage =
exactly as you intend to<br>launder your finished garment. Your =
yardage will likely shrink pretty<br>extensively with the first few =
washings. At least, run it through one<br>complete laundering =
cycle before cutting out and sewing your garment. It is a<br>good idea =
to purchase some extra fabric to allow for pre wash =
shrinkage.<br><br> I always purchase more fabric than I need for a =
project. So if you want too<br>much fabric I suggest you purchase =
at least 5 yards or more. The fabrics<br>types we are discussing =
(above mention) can shrink a surprising amount in the<br>length of the =
goods.<br><br> Here is something I came across in my research and I =
thought you might be<br>interested: "Nail" was an archaic unit =
of measure representing 1/16th of a<br>yard of fabric (2 and =BC =
inches). It is the exact length of a metal nail used<br>in =
building=97equivalent to the present-day 7d nail? The term =
"nail" was<br>commonly used as opposed to inches. As I =
am thinking about it, nails were<br>hand forged by a blacksmith=97would =
that be correct? Please let me know.<br>Thanks.<br><br> I =
have a couple of questions I hope someone can answer:<br><br>If I wear, =
say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would =
be<br>required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress =
(individually)?<br><br>Can someone please direct me to the best source =
of braintan?<br><br>What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather =
without ruining the<br>texture?<br><br>Is braintan purchased by the =
individual skin or other?<br><br> Next time I will show you how to =
draft your own shirt pattern. Bye for now.<br><br>Andrea Moore, =
Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company<br><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Amoore2120@aol.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br><br> <br><br><br>----------<br><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BE239F.E4B9B2E0--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cynthia R Pierce <CPierce@InfoAve.Net>
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
Date: 13 Dec 1998 10:11:18 -0500
unsubscribe CPierce@InfoAve.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cwebbbpdr@juno.com (Charlie P. Webb)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CSMLA
Date: 13 Dec 1998 08:37:07 -0700
Barry Conner,
I would like for you to contact me off list if possible.
my e-mail address is cwebbbpdr@juno.com
Thank you for your time.
C Webb
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "G. Pedro Kinner" <gpedro@sierra.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
Date: 13 Dec 1998 08:04:11 -0800
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Munroe Crutchley" <rocrutch@cdsnet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the price of nails....
Date: 13 Dec 1998 09:37:55 -0800
> << Think about the name 4 penny 6penny 8 penny...I
> have heard originals that they werename this due to the worth of a
> nail of that particular size >>
I haven't been following the nail thread carefully, so this may have
already been mentioned: I heard somewhere that the "penny" designation of
nails referred to weight (i.e. pennyweight). Any comments?
Munroe Crutchley
Grants Pass, OR
rocrutch@cdsnet.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NaugaMok@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tremont Nail Company
Date: 13 Dec 1998 13:22:52 EST
In a message dated 98-12-12 17:11:01 EST, you write:
<< Tremont Nail Company is America's oldest nail manufacturer.
Well folks now you have the story, write them for a "Nail Card" and the next
project you can really nail it down. >>
I checked their web site & they said they're still using the same machinery to
make the nails they used in the mid to late 1800's. The only major change has
been replacing the water wheel power with big electric motors about 1940.
Evidently a Co that believes in tradition! They also have free catalogs for
all 3 companies in the Maze Group -- Maze, Stronghold, & Tremont. Thanks for
sharing this -- it isn't all on the web site. Sounds like a good source for
some of our period projects.
NM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the price of nails....
Date: 13 Dec 1998 11:29:52 -0700
From PENNYWEIGHT to PENNY (a small "d" indicates penny) Originally the terms
8d and 10d were used to denote prices of nails per hundred count. However,
due to the fluctuations of prices this significance was lost and the terms
were retained to designate sizes. Example 2d = 1 inch, 8d = 2 1/2 inch, 100d
= 8 inch.
Buck
________________
-----Original Message-----
>> << Think about the name 4 penny 6penny 8 penny...I
>> have heard originals that they werename this due to the worth of a
>> nail of that particular size >>
>
>I haven't been following the nail thread carefully, so this may have
>already been mentioned: I heard somewhere that the "penny" designation of
>nails referred to weight (i.e. pennyweight). Any comments?
>
>Munroe Crutchley
>Grants Pass, OR
>rocrutch@cdsnet.net
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tremont Nail Company
Date: 13 Dec 1998 11:31:53 -0700
Have used their nails for years on my equipage, "lookers" thought they were
hand-made or originals, now the cats out of the bag.
Buck
___________
-----Original Message-----
>In a message dated 98-12-12 17:11:01 EST, you write:
>
><< Tremont Nail Company is America's oldest nail manufacturer.
> Well folks now you have the story, write them for a "Nail Card" and the
next
>project you can really nail it down. >>
>
>I checked their web site & they said they're still using the same machinery
to
>make the nails they used in the mid to late 1800's. The only major change
has
>been replacing the water wheel power with big electric motors about 1940.
>Evidently a Co that believes in tradition! They also have free catalogs
for
>all 3 companies in the Maze Group -- Maze, Stronghold, & Tremont. Thanks
for
>sharing this -- it isn't all on the web site. Sounds like a good source
for
>some of our period projects.
>
>NM
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CSMLA
Date: 13 Dec 1998 11:34:36 -0700
What's up Charlie,
________________
-----Original Message-----
>Barry Conner,
>I would like for you to contact me off list if possible.
>my e-mail address is cwebbbpdr@juno.com
>Thank you for your time.
>C Webb
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 12 Dec 1998 17:11:32 -0800
Hello the list.
Is "mullen" the same plant as "mules ear"? I know it is sometimes
confused as being the same...............but is there a consensus?
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 13 Dec 1998 13:52:22 -0700
Question: Is mullein the same plant as mules ear?
No, they are totally unrelated. Mules ear is a native compositae (related to
sunflowers), mullein is a non-native and I'm not sure of its family. They do
look a bit similar in the spring before the stalks shoot up, as they both
have large leaves in a 'basal rosette' (meaning going out in all directions
from the same basic point, at the bottom of the plant). Mullein leaves are
very fuzzy.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 14 Dec 1998 08:58:54 EST
In a message dated 98-12-11 21:17:49 EST, you write:
<< Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking
demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes
meant. He told me that was the price per hundred nails. 6d being
much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper.
>>
In one of the old theatre text books I have in a box somewhere (scenery
construction) it said that the 6d = 100 6 penny nails based on weight for
weight. And that that was based on the old English Penny which was a large
coin compared to our penny today. I wish I could locate the text but there
are to many books in the storage room all boxed up to find it easily.
Your humble servant
C.T. Oakes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: IMPORTANT Cloth Yardage Facts
Date: 14 Dec 1998 10:47:33 EST
CLOTH YARDAGE FACTS
=09When working with fabric yardage it is necessary to square up the goods
before cutting out your pattern. The weaving process results in lengthwise=
and
crosswise "yarns" (the threads used for weaving cloth are correctly called
yarns) intersecting at right angles. When the fabric is released from the
loom after weaving the individual yarns relax in an irregular pattern caus=
ing
the angle of the intersecting yarns to be thrown out of alignment. Washin=
g
the goods, as you did in pre washing your fabric, helps to realign the yar=
ns.
=09Your goal is to coax the lengthwise and crosswise edges of the cloth in=
to
perfect right angles before cutting out your garment pieces. Here=92s why=
: If a
garment is cut "off grain" (with the grain running crooked) the finished
garment will twist awkwardly off to one side (crooked). It will look
terrible, be extremely uncomfortable to wear, you will hate it, and there =
is
absolutely nothing you will ever be able to do to correct it. Did you eve=
r
purchase a pair of denim jeans with one leg twisted off to the side whippi=
ng
around your leg and throwing the inseam and side seam off, and driving you
nuts because you could not get it straightened out? (this has happened to=
me
and is one of the BIG reasons I learned to draft my own jeans pattern and
started making my own jeans).
=09You will notice that your yardage has two selvage edges running paralle=
l to
the lengthwise of the fabric. The two crosswise ends are raw edges. Begi=
n by
truing (straightening) the raw edges. This can be done in one of two ways=
.
One is to gently tear across the width of the fabric (selvage to selvage) =
as
close to the raw edge as is feasible (this is for the purpose of conservin=
g
fabric). Make a crosswise snip through the selvage and tear gently,
repositioning your hands every few inches so as not to distort the fabric.
The fabric will automatically tear across the warp yarns adjacent to a wef=
t
yarn (the crosswise yarns in fabric running at right angles to the selvage
edge are called the "weft" with the lengthwise yarns running parallel to t=
he
selvage edge the "warp").
=09If your fabric is too thick to tear or not a basket type weave, you can=
true
it using the second method which is to thread trace across the width of th=
e
fabric by pulling on a weft thread. In essence, you will be removing a we=
ft
thread (yarn) which will leave a visible line (groove) that you can see to=
cut
along from selvage to selvage. Here=92s how it works: snip through the se=
lvage
and pick up a weft yarn. Now pull. This will probably break the thread.
Smooth the little gathers and you will see the cutting line (where the thr=
ead
was removed). Cut along the groove. When you come to the place where you=
r
previous thread popped and you can nor longer see your mark, spread your
fabric and pick up another thread and pull. Continue the above process un=
til
you have reached the other selvage edge.
=09Now that your fabric is trued on both ends, you can square up the goods=
(to
eliminate the twist in the yardage). Spread your fabric on a table or
workbench. If your goods are square, the diagonal measurements, taken
diagonally from corner to corner, in both directions, will measure equally=
.
If the goods are not square, one diagonal measurement will be longer than =
the
other. If this is the case, you will have to make them even.
=09Fabric is unstable on the bias (bias is the diagonal that intersects th=
e
lengthwise and crosswise grains with true bias a 45 degree angle to any
straight edge when the grains are parallel). Grab one of the short corner=
s
and reach across the goods (to the opposite selvage edge) and pull the goo=
ds
on the diagonal (working your way along the entire length of the goods)
stretching on the bias. You can clamp the fabric using your foot if neede=
d.
Recheck using a carpenter square to determine if you are finished or if mo=
re
pulling is necessary. After you are satisfied, you are ready to proceed.
=09Next time I will show you how to use your body measurements to draft a
rectangle shirt pattern that will be a custom fit!
Best Regards,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
Amoore2120@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Body Measurements--yours not mine!
Date: 14 Dec 1998 10:43:06 EST
Dear Friends,
=09In an effort to keep moving along with the rectangle shirt project, I h=
ave
prepared the next two steps in the process. For clarity, I will post them
separately in sequence. If I have been unclear, please ask about it befor=
e we
move onto the next item(s).
MEASUREING UP!
=09We begin by taking a few minimal HONEST body measurements. This is to =
insure
the success of your efforts and investment. I will show you the process a=
nd
explain how it works.
=09We will have a total of 7 measurements. On a piece of paper, create a
vertical column numbering 1 through 7 and label as follows:
1. Shoulder to hem: Mid thigh
2. Chest (body girth)
3. Arm length (shoulder bone located at top of arm) to wrist with ARM BEN=
T
4. Shoulder length (base of neck to shoulder bone)
5. Neck (collar size)
6. Top arm girth
7. Hand size (the smallest loop through which the hand will pass freely)
=09With a flexible measuring tape begin by determining the desired length =
of the
finished garment. From what I have seen most of the original MtMan cloth
shirts were long (mid thigh). So your first measurement is from the top o=
f
the shoulder located at the crest of the arm down to the intended finished
bottom edge of the garment. Record this measurement with # 1.
=09Measurement #2 is around the fullest part of your body. The goal here =
is to
get an accurate body girth measurement (whether that be chest, stomach, or
other). Take the measurement by wrapping the tape around the fullest part=
of
your body. Slip your finger underneath the tape to allow some "give" to t=
he
reading. Record your result with #2.
=09#3 is arm length from the shoulder bone to the wrist WITH THE ARM BENT.
Place your fist on your hip with your elbow pushed outward. With the tape=
at
the crest of the arm, outline the outside edge of the arm (around the elbo=
w)
and on down to the wrist. Record your results with #3.
=09Measurement #4 is the shoulder length which is measured from the base o=
f the
neck to the shoulder bone. Record your measurement with #4.
=09The neck measurement or collar size is #5. This is taken where you lik=
e your
shirt collars to "sit." Wrap the tape around your neck in a comfortable
fashion and record your result with #5.
=09The top arm girth is #6. Wrap the tape comfortably around the fullest =
part
of your upper arm. Record your findings with # 6.
=09Just one more measurement and we are through. Hand size, #7 is taken b=
y
determining the smallest loop through which the hand will pass freely. Re=
cord
under #7.
=09Please do not be concerned if you do not have convenient access to a fl=
exible
measuring tape. This is the whole fun of making replica clothing=97to hav=
e the
opportunity to improvise! Any type of string will do nicely by marking of=
f
the distance and using a straight edge to determine the correct length.
=09Next, we will discuss some important yardage facts after which I will s=
how
you how to use your body measurements to create a rectangle shirt pattern =
that
will fit you comfortably.
Regards,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
Amoore2120@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 14 Dec 1998 11:16:13 EST
Dear Friends,
I just thought of a couple of things I would like to ask regarding the
capote:
Where can I purchase wool blankets with an authentic Indian design rather
than the bold bands that I have seen? This is not to criticize the colored
band(s) design, but rather I am interested in exploring other design options
as well.
Was braintan used to accent the original wool blanket capotes, on yokes,
sleeves, fringe trim, other . . . how about beadwork?
This is just slightly off-topic and I don't want to upset anyone on the list
by posting off-topic but I just have to ask, so please forgive . . . does
anyone know the step-by-step process for making hand made brooms from the
cultivation methods to the actual construction and lacing (materials used) of
the finished broom? I saw what I believe to have been a hand made broom (some
time ago) leaning against a neighbor's shed, which had to have been hand made
as it had a very interesting appearance. I speculate that everyone at one
time made their own brooms from broom straw??? If so, what is broom straw and
how does it differ from the common variety? If anyone knows something about
this, I would love to hear about it. Thank you.
I just noticed that my recent (2) sewing posts will enter your mailbox, as
they did mine, in the wrong order--I should have numbered them.
Until later,
Andrea Moore
Amoore2120@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Mill, Kirk" <millk@aydin.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 14 Dec 1998 11:45:44 -0500
> Where can I purchase wool blankets with an authentic Indian design
> rather
> than the bold bands that I have seen? This is not to criticize the
> colored
> band(s) design, but rather I am interested in exploring other design
> options
> as well.
>
[Mill, Kirk] and while we are on the subject, what is the proper
pronunciation of capote?
> Was braintan used to accent the original wool blanket capotes, on
> yokes,
> sleeves, fringe trim, other . . . how about beadwork?
>
> This is just slightly off-topic and I don't want to upset anyone on
> the list
> by posting off-topic but I just have to ask, so please forgive . . . does
> anyone know the step-by-step process for making hand made brooms from the
> cultivation methods to the actual construction and lacing (materials used)
> of
> the finished broom? I saw what I believe to have been a hand made broom
> (some
> time ago) leaning against a neighbor's shed, which had to have been hand
> made
> as it had a very interesting appearance. I speculate that everyone at one
> time made their own brooms from broom straw??? If so, what is broom straw
> and
> how does it differ from the common variety? If anyone knows something
> about
> this, I would love to hear about it. Thank you.
[Mill, Kirk] I got a book from the library tiltled IIRC Colonial
Crafts that had a very thorough description of broom making. If you are
interested, I can go back to the library for the exact title and ISBN, or I
could just photocopy the chapter.
KirK Mill
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 14 Dec 1998 10:35:53 -0700
Pictures of the Resv. Period Indians in the Museum of the Fur Trade
Quarterlies, show plain HBC and Witney "stripped blanket coats (capotes).
Seems the fur, leather and fancy bead work started after 1900.
Today you see all kinds of fancy beading, fur collars, etc. at rendezvous
and different events; from what I have been able to find (haven't looked
very hard though-not useable for traveling or working) most bead work on
wool is seen on blankets, like beaded blanket strips, the wearer holds the
blanket over the shoulders and pulled shut at the front.
The pictures of all the fancy bead work, leather trimmings and long fringe
like in some of Remington's works would never get off the front porch, the
wearer would be hog-tied a 100 yards from camp, when his beadwork or long
fringe got caught in the under brush. When you see this type of clothing ask
the wearer how far he has traveled in this get up, or how many times has he
slept in these fancy clothes; he will tell you these are his city clothes or
rendezvous outfit. We have all had these garments (can be very expensive),
and have traded them to others that just do the rendezvous and usually don't
wonder to far from the camp, you will never see them in a camp game that has
any kind of contact.
You may try Northwest Traders or the Blanket Brigrade for different colors
and designs of blankets, also Crazy Crow.
I sure other will have other ideas on this, so you will have to weigh
everthing, but research is the true answer and you may want to contact the
Museum of the Fur Trade for their idea on the subject.
Buck
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
-----Original Message-----
>Dear Friends,
>
> I just thought of a couple of things I would like to ask regarding the
>capote:
>
> Where can I purchase wool blankets with an authentic Indian design rather
>than the bold bands that I have seen? This is not to criticize the colored
>band(s) design, but rather I am interested in exploring other design
options
>as well.
>
> Was braintan used to accent the original wool blanket capotes, on yokes,
>sleeves, fringe trim, other . . . how about beadwork?
>
> This is just slightly off-topic and I don't want to upset anyone on the
list
>by posting off-topic but I just have to ask, so please forgive . . . does
>anyone know the step-by-step process for making hand made brooms from the
>cultivation methods to the actual construction and lacing (materials used)
of
>the finished broom? I saw what I believe to have been a hand made broom
(some
>time ago) leaning against a neighbor's shed, which had to have been hand
made
>as it had a very interesting appearance. I speculate that everyone at one
>time made their own brooms from broom straw??? If so, what is broom straw
and
>how does it differ from the common variety? If anyone knows something
about
>this, I would love to hear about it. Thank you.
>
> I just noticed that my recent (2) sewing posts will enter your mailbox, as
>they did mine, in the wrong order--I should have numbered them.
>
>Until later,
>Andrea Moore
>Amoore2120@aol.com
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Andrea
Date: 14 Dec 1998 10:54:06 -0700
I know we're not supposed to waste bandwidth just saying thanks, but Andrea,
wow thanks! This is great information.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 14 Dec 1998 11:00:18 -0700
We get our capote blankets from army navy stores for this same reason, that
we prefer the more muted colors. Can't say that the coloring is authentic or
not though. But one can get really fluffy warm wool army blankets at the
northern army-navy stores.
Brooms---can't say I've ever made one from broom straw, but I do no a bit
about it. Broom straw is the tassels from a specific variety of corn known
as broom corn. You can get seeds for it from most heirloom seed companys,
such as Seeds of Change at www.seedsofchange.com . I've helped grow it, and
the cultivation is basically the same as for any type of corn (ie, likes
rich soil, light-frost hardy, etc.).
There are some craftspeople in Oregon who make traditional brooms from broom
straw....and they come in two natural straw colors....golden, and a
beautiful burnt red.
Thats all I know...
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Drafting the Pattern
Date: 14 Dec 1998 12:58:17 EST
Dear Friends,
I have the drafting information ready and think I will send it along. This
is all I will be able to do for a while as I have noticed that Christmas is
just around the corner and I have other deadlines to meet. Let me know if
some of the information is not clear and I will help.
DRAFTING THE RECTANGLE SHIRT PATTERN
I like snug fitting clothing, so I am giving you two design possibilities:
one for a generous shirt and one for a slightly more fitted garment--although
the cloth rectangle shirt is never considered close-fitting. Begin with a
large rectangle which measures in length, 2 X the Shoulder to Hem
(corresponding to #1 on your body measurement chart). For example, in my
case, my finished garment length measures 37 inches (measured from shoulder to
mid-thigh) so I will draw my rectangle 74 inches in length. For the width,
you can utilize the selvage edges of your cloth goods and have an ample
garment or you can draw the width of the rectangle half the chest measurement
(#2 on your chart) + 6 inches or more to suit your tastes.
Locate the (crosswise) center of your rectangle and sketch in the neck
opening. Figure the crosswise measurement Half the Neck Size (#5 on your
chart) and draw in a conservative oval shape. The slit is positioned on the
garment front and measures 8 to 10 inches in length at the center.
For the sleeve pattern (you will later cut two on the fold of the goods),
another rectangle, start with the length which corresponds to your arm length
(#3 on your chart). The width, if you are using the selvage edges, is already
determined by the width of your goods. If you want less fabric in your
sleeve, as I do, then draw the top width using measurement #6, Arm Girth + 6
inches (or more as desired).
You can either leave the bottom of the sleeve full width of the rectangle as
established by the sleeve top measurement, or do as I did which is to taper
(to) the wrist. I drew my wrist width Hand Size + 2 inches (#7 on my
measurement chart) centering the shorter measurement. For more fullness at
the wrist, draw wider.
Cut 2 gussets 8 inches square.
If you are having trouble with the above instructions, I have prepared a
measurement chart and a diagram sheet for figuring your draft which will help
clarify the process. Or you are welcome to ask for the assistance you need.
I am happy to send you copies if you send a return address and $2.00 to the
following:
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer
Sewing Design Company
P. O. Box 20171
Spokane, WA 99204
PATTERN LAYOUT
Fold your goods lengthwise meeting the selvage edges and lining up your
straightened raw edges. Place your sleeve pattern lengthwise on the goods.
Now place your large rectangle pattern lengthwise on a single layer of goods.
Do not cut the opening for the head and front slit at this point. You can cut
out your gussets now or wait.
Next time we will discuss construction decisions. Actually, I think it is a
good idea if you do not proceed to cut out your garment until we have
discussed construction. I REALLY must be running along! This should keep you
busy for awhile.
Best Regards,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company
Amoore2120@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Sam Keller <skel_98@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rag Rugs (floor & bed)
Date: 14 Dec 1998 10:33:37 -0800 (PST)
I don't know if everyone did this, but an aunt of mine had an old rope
bottom bed and she had a braided rug between the ropes and her tick
(straw on bottom, and feather on top), this kept the ticks from
squeezing down between the ropes.
---Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/11/98 8:20:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> huv@mail.bright.net writes:
>
> << Rag rugs were mentioned as being a way to recycle cloth various
articles
> that I have read showed they were for the beds not the floor even
though
> they were called rag rugs interesting thought >>
>
> Interesting to me is rag rugs for the bed! Were they used for
blankets and
> made similiar to rugs for the floor: tearing strips of cloth goods,
braiding
> and then whipping the edges to form a coil? If this is the case,
the bed rugs
> would have been extremely heavy and thick. Or were they perhaps
instead used
> as a matress pad or incorporated into the matress itself, or other?
I feel
> like I am missing something really obvious here and would like to
hear more
> about bed rugs, how they were made, intended purpose, how they
differed from
> their cousin the braided floor rug, etc.
>
> Best regards,
> Andrea Moore
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "F.Vital" <fvital@leo.infi.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 14 Dec 1998 14:07:54 -0500
Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> This is just slightly off-topic and I don't want to upset anyone on the list
> by posting off-topic but I just have to ask, so please forgive . . . does
> anyone know the step-by-step process for making hand made brooms from the
> cultivation methods to the actual construction and lacing (materials used) of
> the finished broom? I saw what I believe to have been a hand made broom (some
> time ago) leaning against a neighbor's shed, which had to have been hand made
> as it had a very interesting appearance. I speculate that everyone at one
> time made their own brooms from broom straw??? If so, what is broom straw and
> how does it differ from the common variety? If anyone knows something about
> this, I would love to hear about it. Thank you.
the book "Indian Handcrafts" by C. Keith Wilbur shows how to make a broom from a large
branch. The "straw" is acctually thinly split wood.
--
Frank Vital
Mechanical Engineers design weapon systems.
Civil Engineers design targets.
http://www.auburn.edu/~vitalfr/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 14 Dec 1998 12:43:15 -0700
White with black "strips" or "shoots" were the most common in 3 - 3 1/2 pt.
from the mid 1600's until the early 1800's, then traders demanded larger
blanks like 4 pts. and more color, like the green, blue, red, etc.
Buck
dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
-----Original Message-----
>We get our capote blankets from army navy stores for this same reason, that
>we prefer the more muted colors. Can't say that the coloring is authentic
or
>not though...................
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 14 Dec 1998 12:28:38 -0800
Andrea,
I see that Barry Conner has given you some good advise on blankets but let me add my 2
cents in here. If you want to wear your blanket coat or capote (pronounced 'ka poat', as
in 'oat', in my part of the world) in town then Pendllton Woolen Mills makes "indian
design" blankets that are very colorful. They are not authentic to the pre 1840
re-enactment scene though. Whitney and other blanket makers make blankets with narrow
stripes rather than the broad stripes you wish to stay away form. They are called Chiefs
Blankets in the Panther Primitives catalogue. Again, the very colorful and geometric
design filled blankets available today don't have a place in the reenactment scene. The
same goes for the trimmings you were asking about. Barry made some good points on this
subject and again, unless you just want a fancy wool coat to wear on the ski slopes, a
capote should not be thus trimmed and decorated for the reenactment scene if
authenticity is a goal. It has been said by researchers that even fringe made from the
blanket material itself was not a normal feature on original capotes.
There is a picture of a beautiful wool coat, being worn by a white man, on the cover
of the book "Astoria" by Washington Irving. I don't know how authentic it is or whether
the artist just used a fertile imagination, but if I were going to make another coat for
my 1800's reenacting I think I would copy this coat. It has decoration but is much
different than what we usually think of as the way clothing was decorated on the
frontier. It is also a much more well designed and fitted garment than the common
capote. It's not even "reservation era", with reference to the bead work and leather
trim and fringe that Barry talked about. See if you can find a copy of the book.
Remember that Indians got their blankets from europeans during this time and there were
not a lot of "design options". Wide bands, narrow bands, and perhaps no bands but
nothing else that I am aware of. I hope this has been clarifying, I remain.......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> I just thought of a couple of things I would like to ask regarding the
> capote:
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 14 Dec 1998 17:58:36 EST
=09I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther rega=
rding
replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person=92s clothi=
ng, I
believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individual=
s
from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation of =
a
person=92s personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I believe=
a
certain amount of respect is warranted.
=09My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment, expa=
nded
options, and freedom of choice. There is no place in my work for setting
strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discu=
ss
different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my =
own
personal choices and helping other people to make theirs. My interest in
replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and
design choices judged.
=09If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have reache=
d an
impasse because this is the way I work and live. I will probably really c=
atch
it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming fro=
m.
Thank you,
Andrea Moore
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 14 Dec 1998 17:09:13 +0100
A while back there was considerable discussion
about which way was up or down or left or right
regarding rivers in the old days.
On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any
information (such as period journals or writings,
for example) about how folks in the late 18th and
early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel
distances? While I can think of some rather
tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real
info available? People in historic journals often
give rather specific numbers as to how far they
traveled each day, and they are often fairly
close. Thanks.
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:21:13 -0600
Andrea,
In your original posting you asked for "authentic" Indian designs for the
blankets and the respondent rightly posted there aren't any. You asked if
braintan and beads were used to accent and again the response was correct
based
on the phrasing of your questions.
You seem to have taken offense at answers phrased properly based on your
questions.=20
John...
At 05:58 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
> I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther=
regarding
>replica and other types of clothing.=A0 The subject of any person=92s=
clothing, I
>believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals
>from past times or those in the present.=A0 Clothing is a representation of=
a
>person=92s personal expression in a very direct way.=A0 Therefore, I=
believe a
>certain amount of respect is warranted.
>
> My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment,=
expanded
>options, and freedom of choice.=A0 There is no place in my work for setting
>strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently=
discuss
>different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my=
own
>personal choices and helping other people to make theirs.=A0 My interest in
>replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and
>design choices judged.=A0=20
>
> If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have reached=
an
>impasse because this is the way I work and live.=A0 I will probably really
catch
>it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming=
from.
>
>Thank you,
>Andrea Moore
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse
Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:27:25 -0600
A pennyweight is a standard of measure used in the TROY standard of weight.
It
has been standardized at 24 grains or 1555.2mg. 20 pennyweight equals one
TROY ounce and 12 TROY ounces equals 1 TROY pound.
As example; no 16d nail weighs 3/4 of a TROY ounce and 100 of them weigh=
well
in excess of 3/4 ounce.
Some charlatans, even today, will try and deal precious metals from the
unsuspecting by throwing a penny on the scale. I've weighed many English=
and
American large and small cents and have yet to find a real correlation of
weight to denomination. Of course until the mid-1800's weight and measure
lacked strong standards. As the abbreviation "d" is taken from the Roman
"denarius" for penny it may have originally referenced the weight of a Roman
penny which I've not had the chance to weigh and compare. Not everything in
every book is accurate.
I have early sets of weights which were made to differing standards and some
which were obviously made to hoodwink the unsuspecting.
The designation for nails was based on price not weight as was previously
posted. A 16d finish nail is much slimmer in cross section than a 16d=
common
nail. Headed nails are also heavier within a given size which today only
references length. In the early nineteenth century a wider variety of nails
was available than today -- even from Tremont. Not every nail on Tremont's
sample board is still available from them. In the 20+ years I've been=
buying
from them several have been discontinued for lack of interest.=20
I've not before heard of "saving" thread for reuse (as thread) from worn
garments. My experience with traditional thread is it isn't worth saving=
when
the garment is worn out. I would be interested in the reference the
information was drawn from.
John...
At 08:58 AM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-12-11 21:17:49 EST, you write:
>
><< Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking
> demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes
> meant.=A0 He told me that was the price per hundred nails.=A0 6d being
> much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper.
>=A0 >>
>
>In one of the old theatre text books I have in a box somewhere (scenery
>construction) it said that the 6d =3D 100 6 penny nails based on weight for
>weight.=A0 And that that was based on the old English Penny which was a=
large
>coin compared to our penny today.=A0 I wish I could locate the text but=
there
>are to many books in the storage room all boxed up to find it easily.=A0=20
>
>Your humble servant
>
>C.T. Oakes
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Frank <Buckskinner@gbis.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 14 Dec 1998 18:03:14 -0800
Also, if I might ask...how did these folks know how far they actually
traveled? I once told a friend I had walked about 6 miles however when
measured it was a whopping 4 3/4 miles! How embarrassing! Sheesh!
MB
Allen Chronister wrote:
> A while back there was considerable discussion
> about which way was up or down or left or right
> regarding rivers in the old days.
> On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any
> information (such as period journals or writings,
> for example) about how folks in the late 18th and
> early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel
> distances? While I can think of some rather
> tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real
> info available? People in historic journals often
> give rather specific numbers as to how far they
> traveled each day, and they are often fairly
> close. Thanks.
> Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tomactor@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 14 Dec 1998 21:31:07 EST
Hi, Allen
The Mormons had an odometer. There is one of them in the Scottsbluff NM. I
have picture somewhere. I'll dig it out for you. I have also heard they
assigned one of the kids to count the revolutions of a wheel. The kids
probably invented the odometer.
Tom Laidlaw
In a message dated 12/14/98 6:03:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Buckskinner@gbis.com writes:
<< A while back there was considerable discussion
> about which way was up or down or left or right
> regarding rivers in the old days.
> On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any
> information (such as period journals or writings,
> for example) about how folks in the late 18th and
> early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel
> distances? While I can think of some rather
> tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real
> info available? People in historic journals often
> give rather specific numbers as to how far they
> traveled each day, and they are often fairly
> close. Thanks.
> Allen Chronister >>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tomactor@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 14 Dec 1998 21:37:34 EST
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--part0_913689458_boundary
Content-ID: <0_913689458@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Attached is a picture of an odometer which was used by the Mormons. It resides
at Scottsbluff, NM
Tom Laidlaw
In a message dated 12/14/98 6:03:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Buckskinner@gbis.com writes:
<< Also, if I might ask...how did these folks know how far they actually
traveled? I once told a friend I had walked about 6 miles however when
measured it was a whopping 4 3/4 miles! How embarrassing! Sheesh!
MB
Allen Chronister wrote:
> A while back there was considerable discussion
> about which way was up or down or left or right
> regarding rivers in the old days.
> On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any
> information (such as period journals or writings,
> for example) about how folks in the late 18th and
> early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel
> distances? While I can think of some rather
> tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real
> info available? People in historic journals often
> give rather specific numbers as to how far they
> traveled each day, and they are often fairly
> close. Thanks.
> Allen Chronister >>
--part0_913689458_boundary
Content-ID: <0_913689458@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: image/jpeg;
name="ODOMETER.JPG"
Content-transfer-encoding: base64
Content-disposition: inline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==
--part0_913689458_boundary--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:45:50 +0000
Dear Andrea, I hope that no one was 'judging your tastes, etc... I
believe what was said was only in keeping a historical perspective (which
is what the AMM is all about). When reading your blanket question, my
thought was - Pendelton blankets is what you want- These blankets are
beautiful, My father has an extensive collection. They are not correct
to our Fur Trade period (pre 1850). For us (AMM Members) these blankets
are not appropriate for our area of interest. I don't think judgement
was being passed, just the fact that these blankets were post 1850. I
just made a 'Canoe Capote' from a Whitney Horse Rug. This is a blanket
which is slightly smaller than a 4 point, but 15% heavier (thicker). I
chose this blanket for its 'R' value, ie warmth. Is it representitive of
a blanket at a 1830's RDVS, No..... but it will keep me warm when I'm in
the snow and woods. I appreciate all of your postings, i bought an
expandable file yesterday to keep my collection in. I think that most,
if not all, of us appreciate your time and efforts in educating us about
sewing, etc... We are benefitting from your knowledge and expertise,
please don't be offended by some of our 'purists' thoughts. We are about
authenticity, In an AMM camp. Of course there are many other areas of
reenactment. Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys???? Hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 14 Dec 1998 22:00:08 EST
Tom, thanks for that very cool picture. makes me think that Paul Bunyon musta
been the Mormon that wore it. LOL. Could you please describe how it
operated? Thanks.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tomactor@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 14 Dec 1998 22:21:26 EST
In a message dated 12/14/98 7:15:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, RR1LA@aol.com
writes:
<< Tom, thanks for that very cool picture. makes me think that Paul Bunyon
musta
been the Mormon that wore it. LOL. Could you please describe how it
operated? Thanks. >>
Somewhere, somehow, there was a connection to the wagon wheel. I guess it's
like an adding machine: Every so many turns of the wagon wheel turns one notch
of the gear and that gear turns another. and that's an odometer, not a
chronometer. The wagon wore it, not the person. LOL :)
Tom
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 14 Dec 1998 20:27:57 -0700
Andrea,
In the past 20-25 years people have come forth, with their ideas of how
people would have dressed or would have looked (in their own mind), and
refused to just study history, or look at what was being sent on trade
lists, look at artist's work that were there. They preferred to make them
fancier than they were and we ended up with these Hollywood characters seen
for years, we saw it in the movies, it must be correct.
Wrong, that's why in the last 10 years or so members from the historical
societies and other groups that have made a life long study of the varoius
time frames are now being hired by the movie makers to correct some of these
clothing mistakes, matters of appearance or the way the public will see the
character, trying to give a more correct image for that period, etc.
Look at what has been done in late years with "Black Robe", "Last of the
Moc", "Dances with Wolves", "Son of Morning Star", etc., people like Cathy
Smith, Jerry Farthenhold and Jerry Crandall (known for their dedicated
research) were used to handle clothing and weapons, for a correct appearance
of what was used or worn. Not someone's personal taste, but what was
available and documentated in journals or shown in works of art by artist's
that were there at that time.
It all comes down to research and then more research, we have found mistakes
that "people in the know" have made on dates, locations and who or what was
going on at a given time on this "list", all through research and comparing
notes, not just what one person feels is his or her personal thing.
You ask a question we try and give you a correct answer, don't go with what
you see in the movies as being always correct or at an event or rendezvous,
in the larger settlements of the 1700's and 1800's the wealthy had fancy
clothing, but on the out line areas these people had to work to survive and
everthing they had was used to work in, relax if possible in, or go to
church in, just common plain clothes were the norm. When they finally wore
out they were used to patch other clothes or make bags, etc. and finally
saved to be broke down to make paper in the settlements. Its all there in
black and white, journals, books, and letters of the time.
Most folks worked they didn't have the option to stand around and look nice
or show off what they had, they were to busy trying to stay alive and keep
their families alive.
Buck
___________________________
-----Original Message-----
I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther regarding
replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any personÆs clothing,
I
believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals
from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation of a
personÆs personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I believe a
certain amount of respect is warranted.
My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment, expanded
options, and freedom of choice. There is no place in my work for setting
strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discuss
different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my
own
personal choices and helping other people to make theirs. My interest in
replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and
design choices judged.
If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have reached an
impasse because this is the way I work and live. I will probably really
catch
it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming from.
Thank you,
Andrea Moore
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 14 Dec 1998 20:29:52 -0700
Tom is correct, read about this device in the museum in Salt Lake a few
years ago.
Buck
___________
-----Original Message-----
>Hi, Allen
>
>The Mormons had an odometer. There is one of them in the Scottsbluff NM. I
>have picture somewhere. I'll dig it out for you. I have also heard they
>assigned one of the kids to count the revolutions of a wheel. The kids
>probably invented the odometer.
>
>Tom Laidlaw
>
>In a message dated 12/14/98 6:03:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>Buckskinner@gbis.com writes:
>
>
><< A while back there was considerable discussion
> > about which way was up or down or left or right
> > regarding rivers in the old days.
> > On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any
> > information (such as period journals or writings,
> > for example) about how folks in the late 18th and
> > early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel
> > distances? While I can think of some rather
> > tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real
> > info available? People in historic journals often
> > give rather specific numbers as to how far they
> > traveled each day, and they are often fairly
> > close. Thanks.
> > Allen Chronister >>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:49:14 -0800
--------------5EFED747CC4850A755CFDB10
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA13426
Dear Andrea,
Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That, m=
ost assuredly
was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though, you asked for a=
dvise and
others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance came from the assumption =
that you might
no be familiar with the fact of life that this is a history list and we p=
repare for and
attend reenactment functions where yours and our choice of clothing, pers=
onal as that
may be, is judged by our peers and there are things we may not wear or do=
at these
functions lest we not be welcome.
That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these ree=
nactments of
history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your gift for creati=
vity to your
hearts desire. At historical functions your freedom to be creative is lim=
ited to what is
historically correct for the time period set and deviating from that is t=
o show great
disrespect for those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to=
be
historically correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think wa=
s how things
were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa=
nding of how it
was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should have done it=
. One of the
most onerous things to hear a "player" say with regard to this sport of h=
istorical
reenacting is "Well they would have used it if they would have had it". M=
isses the whole
point of doing this.
I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apologiz=
e for what
undoubtedly sounds like a lecture but you seemed to invite further expla=
nation and as
one of the first to try to help you answer your original questions, I tho=
ught it my
place. In the best spirit of friendship, I will remain......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:
> I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any fart=
her regarding
> replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person=92s clo=
thing, I
> believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individ=
uals
> from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation =
of a
> person=92s personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I beli=
eve a
> certain amount of respect is warranted.
>
> My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyme=
nt, expanded
> options, and freedom of choice. There is no place in my work for setti=
ng
> strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently di=
scuss
> different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making =
my own
> personal choices and helping other people to make theirs. My interest =
in
> replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing an=
d
> design choices judged.
>
> If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may hav=
e reached an
> impasse because this is the way I work and live. I will probably reall=
y catch
> it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming =
from.
>
> Thank you,
> Andrea Moore
--------------5EFED747CC4850A755CFDB10
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA13426
<HTML>
Dear Andrea,
<P>Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That=
,
most assuredly was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though,
you asked for advise and others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance
came from the assumption that you might no be familiar with the fact of
life that this is a history list and we prepare for and attend reenactmen=
t
functions where yours and our choice of clothing, personal as that may
be, <U>is judged</U> by our peers and <U>there are things we may not wear=
</U>
or do at these functions<U> lest we not be welcome.</U><U></U>
<P>That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these
reenactments of history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your
gift for creativity to your hearts desire. At historical functions your
freedom to be creative is limited to what is historically correct for the
time period set and deviating from that is to show great disrespect for
those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to be historicall=
y
correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think was how things
were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa=
nding
of how it was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should
have done it. One of the most onerous things to hear a "player" say with
regard to this sport of historical reenacting is "Well they would have
used it if they would have had it". Misses the whole point of doing this.
<P>I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apolo=
gize
for what undoubtedly sounds like a lecture but you seemed to invite
further explanation and as one of the first to try to help you answer you=
r
original questions, I thought it my place. In the best spirit of friendsh=
ip,
I will remain......
<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti'
<P>Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE> I woul=
d
like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther regarding
<BR>replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person=92=
s
clothing, I
<BR>believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about indiv=
iduals
<BR>from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a represen=
tation
of a
<BR>person=92s personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore,
I believe a
<BR>certain amount of respect is warranted.
<P> My approach to clothing des=
ign
and crafting is based on enjoyment, expanded
<BR>options, and freedom of choice. There is no place in my work
for setting
<BR>strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently
discuss
<BR>different options concerning a particular garment as a means of makin=
g
my own
<BR>personal choices and helping other people to make theirs. My
interest in
<BR>replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing
and
<BR>design choices judged.
<P> If the above is offensive
to anyone on the list then we may have reached an
<BR>impasse because this is the way I work and live. I will probabl=
y
really catch
<BR>it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am comin=
g
from.
<P>Thank you,
<BR>Andrea Moore</BLOCKQUOTE>
</HTML>
--------------5EFED747CC4850A755CFDB10--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:50:36 -0800
--------------B977276CC7E60D9DF0C9B48C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA10706
Dear Andrea,
Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That, m=
ost assuredly
was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though, you asked for a=
dvise and
others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance came from the assumption =
that you might
no be familiar with the fact of life that this is a history list and we p=
repare for and
attend reenactment functions where yours and our choice of clothing, pers=
onal as that
may be, is judged by our peers and there are things we may not wear or do=
at these
functions lest we not be welcome.
That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these ree=
nactments of
history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your gift for creati=
vity to your
hearts desire. At historical functions your freedom to be creative is lim=
ited to what is
historically correct for the time period set and deviating from that is t=
o show great
disrespect for those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to=
be
historically correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think wa=
s how things
were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa=
nding of how it
was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should have done it=
. One of the
most onerous things to hear a "player" say with regard to this sport of h=
istorical
reenacting is "Well they would have used it if they would have had it". M=
isses the whole
point of doing this.
I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apologiz=
e for what
undoubtedly sounds like a lecture but you seemed to invite further expla=
nation and as
one of the first to try to help you answer your original questions, I tho=
ught it my
place. In the best spirit of friendship, I will remain......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:
> I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any fart=
her regarding
> replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person=92s clo=
thing, I
> believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individ=
uals
> from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation =
of a
> person=92s personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I beli=
eve a
> certain amount of respect is warranted.
>
>
--------------B977276CC7E60D9DF0C9B48C
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA10706
<HTML>
Dear Andrea,
<P>Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That=
,
most assuredly was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though,
you asked for advise and others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance
came from the assumption that you might no be familiar with the fact of
life that this is a history list and we prepare for and attend reenactmen=
t
functions where yours and our choice of clothing, personal as that may
be, <U>is judged</U> by our peers and <U>there are things we may not wear=
</U>
or do at these functions<U> lest we not be welcome.</U>
<P>That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these
reenactments of history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your
gift for creativity to your hearts desire. At historical functions your
freedom to be creative is limited to what is historically correct for the
time period set and deviating from that is to show great disrespect for
those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to be historicall=
y
correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think was how things
were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa=
nding
of how it was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should
have done it. One of the most onerous things to hear a "player" say with
regard to this sport of historical reenacting is "Well they would have
used it if they would have had it". Misses the whole point of doing this.
<P>I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apolo=
gize
for what undoubtedly sounds like a lecture but you seemed to invite
further explanation and as one of the first to try to help you answer you=
r
original questions, I thought it my place. In the best spirit of friendsh=
ip,
I will remain......
<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti'
<P>Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE> I woul=
d
like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther regarding
<BR>replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person=92=
s
clothing, I
<BR>believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about indiv=
iduals
<BR>from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a represen=
tation
of a
<BR>person=92s personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore,
I believe a
<BR>certain amount of respect is warranted.
<P> </BLOCKQUOTE>
</HTML>
--------------B977276CC7E60D9DF0C9B48C--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:56:08 -0800
I would like to add my vote of appreciation for Andrea's many thorough
explanations of sewing and tailoring technique. These methods are useful to
everyone learning to survive with whatever's available, and I believe that
is a common thread in these discussions.
Many persons on this list take pride in hewing to an old-fashioned sense of
logic, factual integrity, and straightforward use of language. To such
persons, "judging" is an everyday act of discriminating the bad and
worthless from the good and valued. I'm afraid that "judging",
"discrimination" and for that matter, logic, are rejected by many people
today, including our educational establishment, because such distinctions
might make somebody feel bad.
It's perfectly clear to me that somebody like Andrea, who has taken the time
to develop and send us clear, useful, and thoughtful instructions on a topic
we all need, should have no fear of being "judged" and should look forward
with pride to the thanks she should receive. Naturally, our personal taste
in clothing is our own business; there are all kinds of events where
appropriate clothing is expected, and we all have methods of finding our
what those standards are, and whether we want to attend or not under the
circumstances.
So from me, three cheers, thanks, and be assured I have archived your
directions for that day when I next tackle a garment project.
Pat Quilter, AMM #1658
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 2:59 PM
I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther
regarding
replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person's clothing,
I
believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals
from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation of a
person's personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I believe a
certain amount of respect is warranted.
My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment,
expanded
options, and freedom of choice. There is no place in my work for setting
strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discuss
different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my
own
personal choices and helping other people to make theirs. My interest in
replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and
design choices judged.
If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have
reached an
impasse because this is the way I work and live. I will probably really
catch
it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming from.
Thank you,
Andrea Moore
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:56:46 -0800
Hardtack,
HIP, HIP, HU-RRAY Repeted three times with sincere feeling by.........
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote:
> Dear Andrea, I hope that no one was 'judging your tastes, etc... I
> believe what was said was only in keeping a historical perspective (which
> is what the AMM is all about). When reading your blanket question, my
> thought was - Pendelton blankets is what you want-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David Eichman <d.eichman@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 14 Dec 1998 20:47:03 -0800
New to list. Am interested in what a farmer might have worn in 1830.
Could anyone recommend a book or perhaps web site that might help.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David Eichman <d.eichman@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Farmer.
Date: 14 Dec 1998 20:47:40 -0800
New to list. Am interested in what a farmer might have worn in 1830.
Could anyone recommend a book or perhaps web site that might help.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer.
Date: 14 Dec 1998 22:16:41 -0600
Drop by your local friendly Amish community and take a look around, other=
than
machine sewing (and a little more modern shoes) things ain't changed much.
For an even better representation with explanation and exciting first person
interpretation visit Connor Prairie 1836 Pioneer Settlement in Noblesville,
IN.
John...
At 08:47 PM 12/14/98 -0800, you wrote:
>New to list.=A0 Am interested in what a farmer might have worn in 1830.=20
>Could anyone recommend a book or perhaps web site that might help.
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer.
Date: 15 Dec 1998 01:17:02 EST
David, You didn't mention what area of the country you are in, but if you are
near IN, take Johns advice and visit the Conner Prairie Settlement; in MASS
try Sturbridge Village; in the lower colonies try Williamsburg; in PA visit
Bucks County or any Amish community, etc. If a taste of reality isn't
available, your local library will have books in the clothing / costuming
sections that will lead you in the right direction. YHS, Barney P. Fife
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: capotes
Date: 15 Dec 1998 03:24:42 -0600
> Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys????
>Hardtack
Here's my 3!!!!!!!!
And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've
seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to the most
elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life. They were designed
or cut along lines of early European or Colonial style clothing.Contrary to
todays common belief, it was the French Voyageurs,rather than the American
Indians,who popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for the
comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their own
decorations."
Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including the white,multicolored striped
ones) are about as authentic as one can get,they are well over 200 years
old.Blankets came in a variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney
Mills(another period correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has
been producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and they
are well worth the price!)
) the purchasers indicated that they
wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors that best pleased
the Indians of Virginia.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night!
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <itwhee@mcn.org>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 15 Dec 1998 01:23:20 -0800
three cheers from me too. iron tongue
Pat Quilter wrote:
> I would like to add my vote of appreciation for Andrea's many thorough
> explanations of sewing and tailoring technique. These methods are useful to
> everyone learning to survive with whatever's available, and I believe that
> is a common thread in these discussions.
> Many persons on this list take pride in hewing to an old-fashioned sense of
> logic, factual integrity, and straightforward use of language. To such
> persons, "judging" is an everyday act of discriminating the bad and
> worthless from the good and valued. I'm afraid that "judging",
> "discrimination" and for that matter, logic, are rejected by many people
> today, including our educational establishment, because such distinctions
> might make somebody feel bad.
> It's perfectly clear to me that somebody like Andrea, who has taken the time
> to develop and send us clear, useful, and thoughtful instructions on a topic
> we all need, should have no fear of being "judged" and should look forward
> with pride to the thanks she should receive. Naturally, our personal taste
> in clothing is our own business; there are all kinds of events where
> appropriate clothing is expected, and we all have methods of finding our
> what those standards are, and whether we want to attend or not under the
> circumstances.
> So from me, three cheers, thanks, and be assured I have archived your
> directions for that day when I next tackle a garment project.
> Pat Quilter, AMM #1658
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amoore2120@aol.com [mailto:Amoore2120@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 2:59 PM
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
>
> I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther
> regarding
> replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person's clothing,
> I
> believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals
> from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation of a
> person's personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I believe a
> certain amount of respect is warranted.
>
> My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment,
> expanded
> options, and freedom of choice. There is no place in my work for setting
> strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discuss
> different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my
> own
> personal choices and helping other people to make theirs. My interest in
> replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and
> design choices judged.
>
> If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have
> reached an
> impasse because this is the way I work and live. I will probably really
> catch
> it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming from.
>
> Thank you,
> Andrea Moore
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Mill, Kirk" <millk@aydin.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Farmer.
Date: 15 Dec 1998 09:05:17 -0500
> in PA visit
> Bucks County or any Amish community, etc.
[Mill, Kirk] in PA, you want to go to Lancaster Co. or some parts
of Berks Co. Bucks Co. is close but no cigar.
Kirk Mill
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 15 Dec 1998 07:16:48 -0800
Matt Richards,
Thanks for the clarification on the "mules ear"/"mullien" question.
John Funk
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Thank you, please read
Date: 15 Dec 1998 10:22:44 EST
Dear MtMan Friends,
Thank you for your letters. I read all of them carefully. I thank you for
your integrity and honesty. I respect your efforts to keep history alive
through your reenactments, meticulous research and careful attention to
detail.
I am a designer and an inventor. In my work, limitations, restrictions, and
boundaries of any kind are unthinkable. It is obvious that we are not
compatible mainly due to the fact that our orientation and goals differ
widely. I am very sorry because I really love you people (not romantically,
of course, but rather "heart to heart"). I have particularly enjoyed our
discussions on the various innovative and interesting ways people used to do
things--that was fun! . . . wishing you success.
I will love all of you forever,
Andrea Moore
Amoore2120@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: paul mueller <pmueller@infinet.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes
Date: 15 Dec 1998 11:00:32 -0500
Jeff Powers wrote:
>
> > Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys????
> >Hardtack
> Here's my 3!!!!!!!!
> And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've
> seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to the most
> elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life. They were designed
> or cut along lines of early European or Colonial style clothing.Contrary to
> todays common belief, it was the French Voyageurs,rather than the American
> Indians,who popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for the
> comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their own
> decorations."
> Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including the white,multicolored striped
> ones) are about as authentic as one can get,they are well over 200 years
> old.Blankets came in a variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney
> Mills(another period correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has
> been producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and they
> are well worth the price!)
> ) the purchasers indicated that they
> wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors that best pleased
> the Indians of Virginia.
> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>
> Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night!
>
> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
Jeff,
Just a note Hudson Bay brought their blankets from other blanket makers
Hudson bay ddid not make blankets durning the fur trade and still do
not. Todays blanket comes from Walker inc. The multi striped blankets is
around 1817 it was made only to fight the chiefs blankets sells of the
solid with black stripe balankets were hit hard because of the chiefs
blankets some the with multi stripe or duffle blanket was made. the
firit loom in witney england was in the year 1055 1n 1669 is when Thomas
Early the founder of the frim was apprenticed. In 1711 they recieved
their seal from the queen, but their blankets were already an article of
trade.As for capotes there are many lists of capotes on invoices coming
from england.
paul mueller
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 15 Dec 1998 12:04:20 EST
give that girl a double round ---darlin it's tough being around some of
these old salts and remember dont be thick skin this is a discussion
group and most of the people here have a lot of time invested doing
proper and extensive reasearch---one thing for sure if it is period
correct or not someone will give you the facts and references---stay with
us and if there is anything I can help you with feel free to drop me a
note offline---myself as well as others on the list get a little testy at
times so please bear with us and you got my support---
best to you and have a good holiday season---
cheer---cheer---cheer--cheer--cheer--
"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684
E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gbosen@juno.com (Greg N Bosen Bosen)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 15 Dec 1998 12:39:19 EST
hey tom,
like was mentioned before it was mounted on the wagon, and counted the
revolutions of the wheel. if you measure the wheel and multiply that by
the number of revolutions you can get an accurate measurement. the
wagons followed strict maps to find where the one before them planeted
corn and grain and stashed food stuffs. they had a amazing system of
communication and supported the ones behind them (days, seasons, or
years). in respect to the inventor of the odometer his name is Orson
Pratt. he was a briliant scientist and faithful Latter Day Saint
(mormon) apostle. he was asked to devise a method to count the distance
traveled. he started with a rag tied to the wheel and later built this
device. all he had to do was recalibrate it in the morning and in the
evening he would check and record the clicks. the Mormon History Museum
in Salt Lake City has one mounted on a wagon, ready for use.
i hope that clears some up one the rhyme and reason to the odometer.
Greg Bosen
ps my brother did a engenering project on this odometer he can fill in
more details is wanted.
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:31:07 EST Tomactor@aol.com writes:
>Hi, Allen
>
>The Mormons had an odometer. There is one of them in the Scottsbluff
>NM. I
>have picture somewhere. I'll dig it out for you. I have also heard
>they
>assigned one of the kids to count the revolutions of a wheel. The kids
>probably invented the odometer.
>
>Tom Laidlaw
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 15 Dec 1998 11:54:05 -0700
Please Buck, Cathy Smith is not that much of an expert on Plains Indians,
(especially the men)
Joe
Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Sam Keller <skel_98@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thank you, please read
Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:04:02 +0000 (GMT)
We (or at least I) will miss you.
---Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:
>
> Dear MtMan Friends,
>
> Thank you for your letters. I read all of them carefully. I thank
you for
> your integrity and honesty. I respect your efforts to keep history
alive
> through your reenactments, meticulous research and careful attention
to
> detail.
>
> I am a designer and an inventor. In my work, limitations,
restrictions, and
> boundaries of any kind are unthinkable. It is obvious that we are not
> compatible mainly due to the fact that our orientation and goals
differ
> widely. I am very sorry because I really love you people (not
romantically,
> of course, but rather "heart to heart"). I have particularly
enjoyed our
> discussions on the various innovative and interesting ways people
used to do
> things--that was fun! . . . wishing you success.
>
> I will love all of you forever,
> Andrea Moore
> Amoore2120@aol.com
>
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:03:09 +0100
Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer.
There are later l9th century photos of the army
using the same device.
I'm still interested in any historic info on
milage estimating/measuring without such devices.
Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the
HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their
mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever
mentioned a wheel odometer.
Any more thoughts/info out there?
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Vic Barkin <Victor.Barkin@NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:43:09 -0700
An obvious question would be: Did all the trappers who mentioned milage in
their journals have carts or wagons with them (or cannons, anything with a
wheel), or were some of them mounted only? Is there any type of reasonable
celestial navigation that could have been employed? Are there any other
ideas?
Vic
>Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer.
>There are later l9th century photos of the army
>using the same device.
>I'm still interested in any historic info on
>milage estimating/measuring without such devices.
>Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the
>HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their
>mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever
>mentioned a wheel odometer.
>Any more thoughts/info out there?
>Allen Chronister
Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"
Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Posting
Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:54:57 -0500
I know what you are going through and probably even thinking. You
don't hang around this stuff for over 45 years and not pick up on the
things that go on. (I started realllllllll young) But you have great
skills and these guys have learned from you. No one was putting you
down. Historic re-enactment is exactly what it is. RE-ENACTMENT. You
recreate that time period to the last detail. I do several time
periods so that I can express myself and my creativity to the fullest.
To be over creative looses the essence of the time you want to do, if
that is what you want to do. Back then these people were not as free as
we would tend to think they were. The morals, dress codes of white and
Indian, materials you could get for the time, and restrictions of
travel, weather, and surviving put a definite limitation on what you
wear. MOST of today's rendezvous are a sight of what I call "Modern
1990's Buckskinner Fashion Wear". If it is made from fur, feathers,
leather or beads....it is legal. They have very little to do with what
was actually worn or materials used in the very early 1800's.
These "gentleman" of the AMM are here to share and learn
information from each other. We have all gotten into some good old drag
out fights on this sight. But that is what makes it so good and
educational. We learn. We change our ideas. We change other peoples
ideas. And we step one step up to make a better impression. The
perfect mountain died in the mid 1800s'. We are just trying to figure
out how they did it, No one left a manual.
Linda Holley
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . .
Date: 15 Dec 1998 18:13:15 -0700
Joe,
The work that Cathy was doing for "Dances w/Wolves" and "Son of Morning
Star" was with the women clothing, assc. and Jerry Fartherhold did most of
the men's stuff. Their hands were tied to a point with budget and the
want-a-bee's trying to impress the directors. She must know something from
her writings and she has the job.
Several of us helped Jerry at "Son of Morning Star", checking in clothing,
etc. on a weekend in route to canoe the Upper Missouri, everyone was getting
tired of how the directors didn't like this or that of clothing shown them,
even though it was correct. Same old story with Hollywood, "the public won't
know", seems to be the attitude.
Buck
-----Original Message-----
>Please Buck, Cathy Smith is not that much of an expert on Plains Indians,
>(especially the men)
>Joe
>
>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>Write for custom tanning prices
>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
>hair on robes
>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
>check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer.
Date: 15 Dec 1998 18:25:43 -0700
There are many Amish, Quaker and other clans that still dress and do things
the same way as it was done decades ago. The reason I say decades is (it has
now become a good tourist event to do things the old way), as early as 1950
in Lancaster and York Counties, PA the Quakers and Amish were having the
ovens vented up the wind mills, to blow the smell of fresh baked pies all
over the country, boy did that bring in the tourists to the "plain & fancy"
eating places.
I was raised with these people and went to one of their one room school
houses where my mother was a teacher. The kids are to learn basic math,
reading and know how to do a "dog and pony show". Good business and they
still can keep their style of living when not in the public's eye. Oh, I do
have some Amish relations still in Lancaster and York, still wearing the
balck hats and doing the "say not" or "thee and thoughs" when in the
public's eye, when away the store its plain and simple living.
Buck
-----Original Message-----
>David, You didn't mention what area of the country you are in, but if you
are
>near IN, take Johns advice and visit the Conner Prairie Settlement; in MASS
>try Sturbridge Village; in the lower colonies try Williamsburg; in PA visit
>Bucks County or any Amish community, etc. If a taste of reality isn't
>available, your local library will have books in the clothing / costuming
>sections that will lead you in the right direction. YHS, Barney P. Fife
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:30:30 -0800
At the risk of introducing suppositions and opinions where research was
requested --
I can recall numerous journal entries of mileage where it was clear there
were no wheeled vehicles along, such as the Corps of Discovery (who did make
an effort to take their position frequently) and accounts where the party
was thrown onto foot. So we can take it as established that they made
mileage estimates without some form of odometer. Here's the supposition -- I
can only assume that just as we have a pretty good idea how many miles we
cover in a day's driving, these people had a lifetime of experience with
cross-country travel by horse and foot to use. I know, to my chagrin, that
even setting aside the fact that I would be lucky to cover 1/3 the mileage
in a day, as reported by numerous journals (15+ miles a day), the several
times I have retraced my travels on a topo map, I found I only made good a
small fraction of my assumed mileage. Of course I do get lost. Anyway, a
lifetime of travel on the ground could be expected to refine one's
estimates. Anyone with more objective knowledge, please chime in. Could
someone have been charged with counting paces, much like the ancient Romans
(1 mile comes from 1000 paces, "mille" being the latin for 1000, at about 5
feet each (left + right steps).
Pat Quilter
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:03 AM
Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer.
There are later l9th century photos of the army
using the same device.
I'm still interested in any historic info on
milage estimating/measuring without such devices.
Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the
HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their
mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever
mentioned a wheel odometer.
Any more thoughts/info out there?
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:55:48 -0600
Date: 15 Dec 1998 18:52:14 -0700
One source of Amish goods is Gohn Brothers in Middlebury, Indiana. I =
don't have the zip or phone number at hand, but they are in the book. =
They have a small catalog of ready made clothes and tons of dry goods, =
including all manner of fasteners, etc, and old style fabrics (some are =
more period than others). Some fabrics are available in extreme =
widths...bed sheet width, for instance. They have hardware for making =
suspenders. All kinds of stuff. They will take phone and mail orders =
and will ship immediately. However, I don't think that they accept =
credit cards....I dunno. Call them. I have a couple pair of =
broadfall pants purchased ready made and She Who Must Be Obeyed made me =
some drawers of canton flannel---that is lightweight canvas on one side =
and cotton flannel on the other...plenty warm. Be aware that if you =
order light colored garments they might be sewn with dark, contrasting =
thread, resulting in sort of an 19th century leisure suit. Ask first. =
Also, be sure you know what kind of buttons are included, if any. =
They are aware of re-enactors and will try to accomodate our needs. =
They will also make just about any size pants for a few dollars more. I =
won't tell you how big my pants are, but if Christopher Colombus had =
used them for a sail, he would have been here in 1491.=20
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:56:40 -0800
Vic,
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is shanks mare. If we consider all the
references made to "so many sleeps" by the indians and remember that these
people (Europeans) lived their lives walking or ridding then I don't find it
hard to believe they knew their distances by simply living them. Consider that
we have little trouble telling some one how many yards the elk was from us
when we shot or even how many "klicks" out we calculated for the artillery
shot. Many with contemporary military skills talk in "so many meters" with the
ease that our forefathers talked of the distance they traveled.
I think we are making this more mysterious than it really was. L&C made
celestial observations regularly which would have given them an idea of how
far they had traveled. I'm sure that they and many others would instinctively
known how far they walked in a given amount of time or if they were mounted or
even afloat. Simple matter of doing it all your life. When we travel today we
speak of traveling maybe 300 to 600 miles depending on our stamina behind the
wheel. They were used to traveling from 15 to maybe 25 miles a day (a guess)
depending on mode of travel available. I bet if we did that every day of our
lives we could tell with accuracy how far we had traveled on a given day and
not necessarily have to resort to a odometer behind the cart. What say you. I
remain.....
YMOS
Capt.. Lahti' #1719
Clerk of the "Wilson Price Hunt Party"
NW Brigade
Vic Barkin wrote:
> An obvious question would be: Did all the trappers who mentioned milage in
> their journals have carts or wagons with them (or cannons, anything with a
> wheel), or were some of them mounted only? Is there any type of reasonable
> celestial navigation that could have been employed? Are there any other
> ideas?
>
> Vic
>
> >Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer.
> >There are later l9th century photos of the army
> >using the same device.
> >I'm still interested in any historic info on
> >milage estimating/measuring without such devices.
> >Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the
> >HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their
> >mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever
> >mentioned a wheel odometer.
> >Any more thoughts/info out there?
> >Allen Chronister
>
> Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>
> AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
> "Aux aliments du pays!"
>
> Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
> Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:55:48 -0600
Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:52:29 -0700
Gohn Bros.
105 South Main
P.O.Box 111
Middlebury, IN 46540-0111
1-219-825-2400
Here's the address that Lanney was referring to on "Amish and Plain
Clothing".
Buck
___________________
-----Original Message-----
One source of Amish goods is Gohn Brothers in Middlebury, Indiana. I don't
have the zip or phone number at hand, but they are in the book. They have a
small catalog of ready made clothes and tons of dry goods, including all
manner of fasteners, etc, and old style fabrics (some are more period than
others). Some fabrics are available in extreme widths...bed sheet width,
for instance. They have hardware for making suspenders. All kinds of
stuff. They will take phone and mail orders and will ship immediately.
However, I don't think that they accept credit cards....I dunno. Call them.
I have a couple pair of broadfall pants purchased ready made and She Who
Must Be Obeyed made me some drawers of canton flannel---that is lightweight
canvas on one side and cotton flannel on the other...plenty warm. Be aware
that if you order light colored garments they might be sewn with dark,
contrasting thread, resulting in sort of an 19th century leisure suit. Ask
first. Also, be sure you know what kind of buttons are included, if any.
They are aware of re-enactors and will try to accomodate our needs. They
will also make just about any size pants for a few dollars more. I won't
tell you how big my pants are, but if Christopher Colombus had used them for
a sail, he would have been here in 1491.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes
Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:58:26 -0700
Charles E. Hanson Jr. had several articles about the "capote' and "great
coat" industry of England and its involvement in the early American and
Canadian Fur Trade. I will try and look up some of this information that
Paul has just shared with us. As I remember the cut of the manufactured
coats were different than what was produced by the Native Americans or
breeds from examples at the museum.
Buck
____________________________
-----Original Message-----
>Jeff Powers wrote:
>>
>> > Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys????
>> >Hardtack
>> Here's my 3!!!!!!!!
>> And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've
>> seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to the most
>> elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life. They were
designed
>> or cut along lines of early European or Colonial style clothing.Contrary
to
>> todays common belief, it was the French Voyageurs,rather than the
American
>> Indians,who popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for
the
>> comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their own
>> decorations."
>> Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including the white,multicolored
striped
>> ones) are about as authentic as one can get,they are well over 200 years
>> old.Blankets came in a variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney
>> Mills(another period correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has
>> been producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and they
>> are well worth the price!)
>> ) the purchasers indicated that they
>> wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors that best
pleased
>> the Indians of Virginia.
>> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>>
>> Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night!
>>
>> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>
> Jeff,
> Just a note Hudson Bay brought their blankets from other blanket makers
> Hudson bay ddid not make blankets durning the fur trade and still do
>not. Todays blanket comes from Walker inc. The multi striped blankets is
>around 1817 it was made only to fight the chiefs blankets sells of the
>solid with black stripe balankets were hit hard because of the chiefs
>blankets some the with multi stripe or duffle blanket was made. the
>firit loom in witney england was in the year 1055 1n 1669 is when Thomas
>Early the founder of the frim was apprenticed. In 1711 they recieved
>their seal from the queen, but their blankets were already an article of
>trade.As for capotes there are many lists of capotes on invoices coming
>from england.
>
> paul mueller
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "John L. Allen" <jlallen@snet.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mileage
Date: 15 Dec 1998 21:36:26 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE2872.F7C7C5C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ho, the list:
AARGH!
Allen Chronister has asked a question that I vowed I wouldn't even try =
to answer--but here I go anyway. Warning: this is a lengthy discussion.
As a historical geographer who has spent the last 30 years studying and =
writing about Western exploration in the first half of hte nineteenth =
century, I've driven myself nuts trying to figure out the answer to =
Allen's question: "about how folks in the late 18th and early 19th =
centuries estimated their daily travel distances."
The best answer I've been able to come up with is "depends". Depends on =
the traveler, the purpose of travel, the equipment, the environment, =
etc.
An example: William Clark was incredibly accurate in his measurement of =
distance. From St. Louis to the mouth of the Columbia, his distance =
measurement was about 4 miles off from the modern measurement given by =
the US Geological Survey. How did he do it? With fairly sophisticated =
instruments, careful attention to detail, and enlisted men to do the =
grunt work of pacing. Clark was instructed to make maps of the entire =
route and this meant doing a lot of field mapping. During much of the =
course of the expedition, Clark used triangulation methods: with one =
known leg of a triangle, he could figure the other distances using =
surveying instruments and tables of trignometric functions (sine, =
cosine, etc.). To get his known leg, Clark would (as nearly as I've been =
able to determine) have one of the enlisted men actually pace off =
distances along the banks of the Missouri. Evidence of this is that =
Clark often gave his distances in both straight-line increments and in =
"windings"--in other words, distance as the crow flies between two =
points and distance if the crow is walking along the curving bank of the =
river and counting his steps. Other military surveyors and mapmakers who =
were contemporaries of Lewis and Clark conducted similar scientific =
distance measurements--usually with a very high degree of accuracy. For =
example, David Thompson's maps of the Northwest, made between 1797 and =
1810, were also remarkably accurate in terms of distance. Like Clark, he =
used surveying instruments made available to him by his employers (the =
North-west Company).
O.K. So how did people like Osborne Russell, Wilson Price Hunt, Robert =
Stuart, William Ashley, Jedediah Smith, Rufus Sage, Thomas Farnham--even =
James Ohio Pattie for crying' out loud--come up with distance figures =
that were, while not as accurate as Will Clark's, still remarkably =
accurate--without having access to sophisticated surveying instruments =
and techniques? As frustrating and intellectually unsatisfying as this =
answer is, I think they guessed. But their guesses were "educated =
guesses".=20
I don't have to tell anybody on this list that these guys lived close to =
the natural world and survived by knowing things like how far it was to =
a water hole, good grass, or a place to fort up. I think that long =
familiarity with their environment, with their own travel paces and =
those of their horses (remember that they probably walked about as often =
as they rode, using their horses to pack gear) allowed them to judge =
distances much more accurately that we can while driving a car at speeds =
that may vary widely (from a dead stop to 70 mph or more). I suspect =
they also had a very well developed sense of time and distance--again, =
probably more precise than ours because their survival often depended on =
it. I've known old guys (contemporaries of my grandfather) who hunted =
and trapped in the northern Wyoming mountains in the late 19th and early =
20th centuries. These guys--more than a half century removed in time =
from the fur trappers and early explorers--were still incredibly =
accurate in their abilities to assess time and distance relationships. =
When asked how far it was from one point to another and how long it =
would take to get there, they could often reply with what (as a kid) I =
viewed as nearly supernatural accuracy. No pedometers for these gents =
but purely shank's mare. They knew their environment; they knew their =
pace.
From a scientific standpoint, the potential abilities of human distance =
and time perception are remarkable. And when it comes right down to it, =
estimating a distance of in miles between two mountain ridges and the =
time it will take to get from one to the other isn't a great deal =
different than making that snap estimate of how far away that buck is, =
how fast he is running, what the wind speed and direction is, and how do =
I hold on a point so that after I pull the trigger and my firearm =
discharges, a certain part of his anatomy and the slug from my rifle are =
going to arrive at the same point in space at the same time. Many of you =
carry out that incredibly complicated process without having to think =
about it. Estimating distances probably isn't any more difficult for the =
human brain to achieve--as long as that brain has plenty of experience =
in making such calculations.
Keep your powder dry.
John
Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
jlallen@snet.net
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE2872.F7C7C5C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 5.00.0910.1309"' name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ho, the list:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>AARGH!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Allen Chronister has asked a question that I vowed I =
wouldn't=20
even try to answer--but here I go anyway. Warning: this is a lengthy=20
discussion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>As a historical geographer who has spent the last 30 =
years=20
studying and writing about Western exploration in the first half of hte=20
nineteenth century, I've driven myself nuts trying to figure out the =
answer to=20
Allen's question: "about how folks in the late 18th and early 19th=20
centuries estimated their daily travel distances."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The best answer I've been able to come up with is=20
"depends". Depends on the traveler, the purpose of travel, the =
equipment, the environment, etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>An example: William Clark was incredibly accurate in =
his=20
measurement of distance. From St. Louis to the mouth of the Columbia, =
his=20
distance measurement was about 4 miles off from the modern measurement =
given by=20
the US Geological Survey. How did he do it? With fairly sophisticated=20
instruments, careful attention to detail, and enlisted men to do the =
grunt work=20
of pacing. Clark was instructed to make maps of the entire route and =
this meant=20
doing a lot of field mapping. During much of the course of the =
expedition, Clark=20
used triangulation methods: with one known leg of a triangle, he could =
figure=20
the other distances using surveying instruments and tables of =
trignometric=20
functions (sine, cosine, etc.). To get his known leg, Clark would (as =
nearly as=20
I've been able to determine) have one of the enlisted men actually pace =
off=20
distances along the banks of the Missouri. Evidence of this is that =
Clark often=20
gave his distances in both straight-line increments and in=20
"windings"--in other words, distance as the crow flies between =
two=20
points and distance if the crow is walking along the curving bank of the =
river=20
and counting his steps. Other military surveyors and mapmakers who were=20
contemporaries of Lewis and Clark conducted similar scientific distance=20
measurements--usually with a very high degree of accuracy. For example, =
David=20
Thompson's maps of the Northwest, made between 1797 and 1810, were also=20
remarkably accurate in terms of distance. Like Clark, he used surveying=20
instruments made available to him by his employers (the North-west=20
Company).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>O.K. So how did people like Osborne Russell, Wilson =
Price=20
Hunt, Robert Stuart, William Ashley, Jedediah Smith, Rufus Sage, Thomas=20
Farnham--even James Ohio Pattie for crying' out loud--come up with =
distance=20
figures that were, while not as accurate as Will Clark's, still =
remarkably=20
accurate--without having access to sophisticated surveying instruments =
and=20
techniques? As frustrating and intellectually unsatisfying as this =
answer is, I=20
think they guessed. But their guesses were "educated guesses". =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I don't have to tell anybody on this list that these =
guys=20
lived close to the natural world and survived by knowing things like how =
far it=20
was to a water hole, good grass, or a place to fort up. I think that =
long=20
familiarity with their environment, with their own travel paces and =
those of=20
their horses (remember that they probably walked about as often as they =
rode,=20
using their horses to pack gear) allowed them to judge distances much =
more=20
accurately that we can while driving a car at speeds that may vary =
widely (from=20
a dead stop to 70 mph or more). I suspect they also had a very well =
developed=20
sense of time and distance--again, probably more precise than ours =
because their=20
survival often depended on it. I've known old guys (contemporaries of my =
grandfather) who hunted and trapped in the northern Wyoming mountains in =
the=20
late 19th and early 20th centuries. These guys--more than a half century =
removed=20
in time from the fur trappers and early explorers--were still incredibly =
accurate in their abilities to assess time and distance relationships. =
When=20
asked how far it was from one point to another and how long it would =
take to get=20
there, they could often reply with what (as a kid) I viewed as nearly=20
supernatural accuracy. No pedometers for these gents but purely shank's =
mare.=20
They knew their environment; they knew their pace.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>From a scientific standpoint, the potential =
abilities of human=20
distance and time perception are remarkable. And when it comes right =
down to it,=20
estimating a distance of in miles between two mountain ridges and the =
time it=20
will take to get from one to the other isn't a great deal different than =
making=20
that snap estimate of how far away that buck is, how fast he is running, =
what=20
the wind speed and direction is, and how do I hold on a point so that =
after I=20
pull the trigger and my firearm discharges, a certain part of his =
anatomy and=20
the slug from my rifle are going to arrive at the same point in space at =
the=20
same time. Many of you carry out that incredibly complicated process =
without=20
having to think about it. Estimating distances probably isn't any more =
difficult=20
for the human brain to achieve--as long as that brain has plenty of =
experience=20
in making such calculations.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Keep your powder dry.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>John</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dr. John L. Allen<BR>21 Thomas Drive<BR>Storrs, CT=20
06268<BR>860/487-1346<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:jlallen@snet.net">jlallen@snet.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE2872.F7C7C5C0--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: WhteWolf1@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:48:49 EST
Hey, Now that we are on the topic of Tobacco, I Had acouple of Questions about
the Period Pipe Smoking.
What would the Mountian Men in the West use in their pipes?(Northern-Central
Cali) Even though there wern't that many MM over there. Just trying to adjust
more into my "Period wear". Moving from Indiana to Cali. Kinda made me adjust
my Wear alittle bit.
Thanks,
J. Broughton
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 15 Dec 1998 21:57:15 -0700
I'm not sure of anything documentable on what Mountain Men of California
would use in their pipes......but common native pipe mixtures that are
indigenous to the Sierras and the Coast Range include Bear Berry (aka
kinnickkinnick or Uva Ursi) common at alpine elevations and supposedly best
if harvested in the springtime, inner bark of Red Osier Dogwood (aka Red
Willow) very common along creeks, supposedly best if dried and lightly
roasted, Native Tobacco (Nicotiana something Exaltata) was cultivated by
just about every Native Tribe in California----and was the only thing they
cultivated (and is the best Tobacco I've ever smoked, wish I could get some
seeds) except along the Colorado River, and Wild Mints of many varieties.
Also worth trying is Sagebrush (Artemisia Tridentata) from the high deserts
of eastern California, and Mugwort found along most creeks and rivers.
I used to live in Northern California, so this is based on what is there,
and what Native peoples used, Southern California is a different world
altogether. Where exactly are you living?
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Kevin Kierst <kierst@newmex.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps
Date: 13 Dec 1998 08:28:39 -0700
My name is Joe Kierst and have been attending rendezvous for the past 3
years.Last night my dad had the idea of a buckskinner summer camp where
you could trap beaver,hunt,track,throw knives and tomahawks,make fires
with flint and steel,cure hides,pack a mule,shoot blackpowder rifles
and more.I would start this myself but Im only 12 and school takes up
most of my time but Im very willing to help in any way I can.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...and mullein
Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:03:36 -0700
Just a side note regarding Mullein. I'm not sure if authenticity of pipe
mixture was important to the fellow asking about Mullein identification, but
if it is I thought I'd point out that Mullein is not native to North America
(though it is so widespread you'd think it was), and while it probably
spread very quickly once it arrived, chances are extremely slim that it was
anywhere near the Rockies prior to 1840.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:24:20 -0800
Matt,
Looking for some native tobacco? Try Native seed Search. I have gotten some
different seeds form them and grown the weed here in SE WA. with mixed results.
Your climate may be even better. If you are interested and don't have the cat.
I will see if I can come up with an address. Let me know. I remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Matt Richards wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: WhteWolf1@aol.com
Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:01:18 EST
Thanks for the Info On Tobacco. Just a couple Quick Questions again.
Capt. Lahti', could I grab that address from you?
Mr. Richards, I am currentally Living in San Mateo County, about 20 Min.South
of San Fran, Any info you could supply me would be much appreciated.
What would the Mountian Men use to keep their Tobacco Moist enough to smoke? A
special pouch? Or did they not bother to care about the moisture? And did they
just pick the herb, dry it, cut it up into ribbons and smoke it? or did they
add stuff? This is coming from a guy that just goes out and buys it, instead
of homemade, although I am willing to try anything.
Thank you again for all your help,
J. Broughton
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 00:17:08 -0700
A general question for the list:
All of this talk about period clothing and materials stimulated by Andrea's
post has reminded me of a question that I've been wanting to ask folks like
yourselves for quite some time.
My limited experience at rendezvous' has been that folks are much more
concerned with cuts and styles than with materials....ie ... its just fine
to wear chrome-tan leggings, but wear brain tan in anything besides the
styles portrayed in the same three books on Mtn Man gear that everyone has
read, and its inappropriate (this is a gross generalization but illustrates
my point).
My feeling on this is that what is most 'accurate' is to use period
appropriate materials, and basically period appropriate styles, but that
there is some room for personal adaptation.... ie .... I find it hard to
believe that Mtn Men were slaves to fashion. It seems much more realistic
that most had some basic concepts about clothing in common (based on what
was commonly used in the period), but they adapted them to fit their own
needs because they were practical people who knew how to do stuff, and had
to adapt in order to survive. If a guy found it more practical to wear high
top moccasins in the area he was working in because there were so damn many
burs, he'd make some, even if that wasn't typical of that area.......and
even if he'd never been exposed to high-tops, he'd have enough brain power
to think that making his mocs higher would help keep grass seeds from
working their way down into his feet and being very painful (this is just a
quick example).......or perhaps the location of his buttons, or using a
drawstring, or other simple yet practical variations.
With brain tan continueing as our example, what little remnants of mountain
man and Native garments I've seen in museums has always surprised me how
much it didn't fit into the stereotypes I see so much recreation of.
Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate to wear brain-tan that is based upon a
highly stylized later period garment (like levi's), but to me this type of
're-enactment' seems more in keeping with the spirit of who these folks were
and how they lived.
I'd really enjoy hearing some opinions on this.....
I'd also like to say that many of the comments I've recently seen on this
list about period clothing, makes far more sense to me than anything I've
previously come across. Is there a web site where I can learn more about the
AMM?
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Subject: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes
Date: 15 Dec 1998 23:29:46 -0800 (PST)
Matt
Read your book, (or most of it anyway) and been meaning to ask you... what
do you use to replace the woodash wash when tanning hair on, as in buffalo
robes?... And... after fleshing and braining, how do you preserve the
hair on buff robe without smoking it?
Regards
Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps
Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:57:50 EST
hey joe - sign me up!! great idea. sounds like a rendezvous.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:47:48 -0600
Thanks Paul,more fodder for the history files.I'll have to save this for
future reference.
>> And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've
>> seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to
>>the most elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life.
>>They were designed or cut along lines of early European or
>>Colonial style clothing.Contrary to todays common belief, it was
>>the French Voyageurs,rather than the American Indians,who
>>popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for the
>>comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their
>>own decorations." Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including
>>the white,multicolored striped ones) are about as authentic as
>>one can get,they are well over 200 years old.Blankets came in a
>>variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney Mills(another period
>>correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has been
>>producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and
>>they are well worth the price!) ) the purchasers indicated that
>>they wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors
>>that best pleased the Indians of Virginia.
>> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>> Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night!
>> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>Jeff,
>Just a note Hudson Bay brought their blankets from other blanket
>makers Hudson bay ddid not make blankets durning the fur trade and
>still do not. Todays blanket comes from Walker inc. The multi
>striped blankets is around 1817 it was made only to fight the
>chiefs blankets sells of the solid with black stripe balankets were
>hit hard because of the chiefs blankets some the with multi stripe
>or duffle blanket was made. the firit loom in witney england was in
>the year 1055 1n 1669 is when Thomas Early the founder of the frim
>was apprenticed. In 1711 they recieved their seal from the queen,
>but their blankets were already an article of trade.As for capotes
>there are many lists of capotes on invoices coming from england.
>paul mueller
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes
Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:02:04 -0700
Lee,
I'm not really a Buffalo Hide tanner, though I am currently doing a couple
of Buffalo robes....and I've done many brain tan furs. All current Buffalo
Robe brain tanners that I know (Wes Housler, Larry Belitz, Jim Miller, Randy
Breuwsma) smoke their hides as far as I know, though I'm not sure if this
was done historically....
......one quick note with the 'hide smoking' tradition is that many native
tribes did not smoke their hides, and most only smoked hides destined to get
wet & dry frequently....like moccasins and leggings.....the idea that
unsmoked or white hides were purely ceremonial is simply a myth, at least
for the vast majority of Plains and western tribes (we have little record of
eastern tribes' tanning methods, though there are a couple). However, people
of that era lived a very smokey lifestyle, and from my own experience, it
takes very little to functionally smoke a hide so that bugs stay out of it,
and it can get wet and still dry soft....and this is why I believe that so
many tribes did so little smoking------the hides got smoked anyway! Just by
hanging out in the lodges and around fires.
For hair-on tanning I do not know of anything that has as equivalently
wonderful of an effect as the wood-ash lye of improving brain
penetration....that is in any way traditional....though this is one of my
current quests. My upcoming experiments will be to try 'pre-smoking' (see
the Dinsmore's article at www.braintan.com/articles/presmoke.html ), on furs
and see if this helps improve brain penetration....initial experiments have
shown that it does wonders to prevent the hair from falling out, which can
be a problem if one brains and rebrains a fur many times.
The current method that virtually everyone does for tanning furs is to apply
brains and work the hide soft repeatedly until it is as soft as one
wants...whether its Buffalo, Beaver, Skunk or what have you. No-one has
found a short-cut as useful as the wood-ash soak that helps so much with
making buckskin, and in my opinion there aren't any brain tanners who have
really mastered hair-on tanning, though there are many who are pretty good
at it.....the commercial furs come out softer. If you haven't already, check
out the online fur tanning article at www.braintan.com/articles/miller1.html
for a basic idea. For Buffalo robe tanning I recommend Wes Housler's video
'How To Brain Tan a Buffalo', ordering info is at
www.braintan.com/tools/tools.html . Wes has tanned over 500 robes, so I
listen.....
For more Buffalo tanning info contact Wes Housler, Larry Belitz, or Jim
Miller all of who's contact information is in the Resource Directory at
www.braintan.com/resources/directory2.html .
I am working on an entire Buffalo tanning section for braintan.com to be
posted as soon as I get it all together. Wes recently sent me a picture of a
brain tan buffalo hide tipi he made last spring. It is really inspiring!
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes
Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:02:05 -0800 (PST)
Appreciate the info Matt.
I was concerned about the buffalo robes due to a friends experiance with
bugs and unsmoked hides.... the bugs clipped all the hair off his
unsmoked hide except for the belly hair, so he now has a buffalo hide with
a "reverse Mohawk haircut". I'd hate to go through all that work and have
that happen.
I'm in the process of seeing how tolerant my wife is by working on some
hides in the basement. Will check in on your website when time permits,
look forward to your Buffalo section.
Regards
Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 06:52:12 EST
I think that you have hit upon my sentiments exactly. The people of the 19th
century
certainly weren't as concerned about the fashion police as we in the 20th
century ssem to be. I am a quillwork. I do both hitorically accurrate and
creative pieces. I am guided by who commissions what and when they want to
pay me. I have traced my family roots back to the 1600's and am pretty sure
they operated in the same way.
Red Hawk
MIA3wolves@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Vic Barkin <Victor.Barkin@NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 16 Dec 1998 07:28:52 -0700
I wholeheatedly agree Roger and Pat,
You are correct in the assumtion that it should not be made into a mystery
for the ages. Another observation is that if, as in the L&C expedition ,
the aim was scientific, then yes, celestial navigation was the rule. If
however the goal was profit and not science for posterity, we can consider
ourselves lucky that some actually cared enough to record even estimated
milage. Would the fur compaies have invested in an odometer on their carts
in the first place? So far the evidence says no. So are we really back to
the answer to Allen's original question being that a lifetime of
travelling known distances prior to the uncharted journeys recorded, gave
the travellers the experience needed to give very educated and accurate
estimations?
Vic
>Vic,
>
>One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is shanks mare. If we consider all the
>references made to "so many sleeps" by the indians and remember that these
>people (Europeans) lived their lives walking or ridding then I don't find it
>hard to believe they knew their distances by simply living them. Consider that
>we have little trouble telling some one how many yards the elk was from us
>when we shot or even how many "klicks" out we calculated for the artillery
>shot. Many with contemporary military skills talk in "so many meters" with the
>ease that our forefathers talked of the distance they traveled.
>
>I think we are making this more mysterious than it really was. L&C made
>celestial observations regularly which would have given them an idea of how
>far they had traveled. I'm sure that they and many others would instinctively
>known how far they walked in a given amount of time or if they were mounted or
>even afloat. Simple matter of doing it all your life. When we travel today we
>speak of traveling maybe 300 to 600 miles depending on our stamina behind the
>wheel. They were used to traveling from 15 to maybe 25 miles a day (a guess)
>depending on mode of travel available. I bet if we did that every day of our
>lives we could tell with accuracy how far we had traveled on a given day and
>not necessarily have to resort to a odometer behind the cart. What say you. I
>remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt.. Lahti' #1719
>Clerk of the "Wilson Price Hunt Party"
>NW Brigade
>
>Vic Barkin wrote:
>
>> An obvious question would be: Did all the trappers who mentioned milage in
>> their journals have carts or wagons with them (or cannons, anything with a
>> wheel), or were some of them mounted only? Is there any type of reasonable
>> celestial navigation that could have been employed? Are there any other
>> ideas?
>>
>> Vic
>>
>> >Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer.
>> >There are later l9th century photos of the army
>> >using the same device.
>> >I'm still interested in any historic info on
>> >milage estimating/measuring without such devices.
>> >Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the
>> >HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their
>> >mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever
>> >mentioned a wheel odometer.
>> >Any more thoughts/info out there?
>> >Allen Chronister
>>
>> Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>>
>> AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
>> "Aux aliments du pays!"
>>
>> Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
>> Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998
Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"
Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 16 Dec 1998 07:37:00 -0800
J. Broughton,
When I used to smoke my pipe I had made a pouch from pillow ticking,
soaked it in melted beeswax (for waterproofing). To keep it moist I kept
a piece of apple, cacti, bread or whatever was at hand that would retain
some degree of moisture.
Then I promptly went and lost the whole shootin match in the Big
Hole.....Some trekker in the far distant future will stumble across it
and have himself a genuine fired clay pipe bowl circa 19th cent.
John Funk
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 16 Dec 1998 09:13:57 +0100
John Allen
Thank you for your insightful post on distance.
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: MtMan-List: Jocab & Sam
Date: 16 Dec 1998 11:45:24 -0500
Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day Hawken
Shop?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam
Date: 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500
Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day "Hawken
Shop"?
Your most humble and obedient servant,
mdwatts@naxs.com
HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
M. D. Watts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Gail Carbiener" <carbg@cmc.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes
Date: 16 Dec 1998 09:13:21 -0800
In The Book of Buckskinning IV, there is a really good extensive article
titled "Blankets in Early America". It is written by Gary Mueller.
Gail
=============================================
>Charles E. Hanson Jr. had several articles about the "capote' and "great
>coat" industry of England and its involvement in the early American and
>Canadian Fur Trade. I will try and look up some of this information that
>Paul has just shared with us. As I remember the cut of the manufactured
>coats were different than what was produced by the Native Americans or
>breeds from examples at the museum.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Gail Carbiener" <carbg@cmc.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mileage
Date: 16 Dec 1998 09:28:44 -0800
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE28D6.79F40460
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John, et al.
At a later date, it is interesting to read how many emigrants on the =
Oregon, California, Morman Trails misjudged the distance to major =
landmarks such as mountain tops or even Chimney Rock in Wyoming. Almost =
all diaries record that it "looks so close" but ends up being miles =
farther than estimated.=20
Gail
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE28D6.79F40460
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<STYLE></STYLE>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John, et al.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> At a later date, =
it is=20
interesting to read how many emigrants on the Oregon, California, Morman =
Trails=20
misjudged the distance to major landmarks such as mountain tops or even =
Chimney=20
Rock in Wyoming. Almost all diaries record that it "looks so =
close"=20
but ends up being miles farther than estimated. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>Gail</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT =
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE28D6.79F40460--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam
Date: 16 Dec 1998 12:13:31 EST
KINA INTERESTED IN FINDING THAT INFORMATION OUT MY SELF---SURE WOULD LIKE
TO HAVE A GOOD PHONE NUMBER THAT I COULD MAKE CONTACT WITH I HAVE THE
FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN MY RECORDS BUT DONT BELIEVE IT IS CORRECT:
THE HAWKINS SHOP
4778 NORTH MONKEY HILL ROAD
OAK HARBOR, WASHINGTON 98277
PHONE NUMBER :1-360-679-4657
I WOULD ALSO LIKE THE NAME OF THE OWNER SINCE IT CHANGED HANDS FROM ART
RESSEL-----ANY INFO WOULD BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED.
"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684
E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500 mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
writes:
>Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day
>"Hawken
>Shop"?
>
>Your most humble and obedient servant,
>mdwatts@naxs.com
>HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
>M. D. Watts
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam
Date: 16 Dec 1998 12:47:22 -0500
Hawk,
I'm thinking it may have migrated to Montana or Wyoming the last couple
years. Like yourself, I've been unable to keep up with it.
----------
> From: hawknest4@juno.com
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:13 PM
>
> KINA INTERESTED IN FINDING THAT INFORMATION OUT MY SELF---SURE WOULD LIKE
> TO HAVE A GOOD PHONE NUMBER THAT I COULD MAKE CONTACT WITH I HAVE THE
> FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN MY RECORDS BUT DONT BELIEVE IT IS CORRECT:
>
> THE HAWKINS SHOP
> 4778 NORTH MONKEY HILL ROAD
> OAK HARBOR, WASHINGTON 98277
>
> PHONE NUMBER :1-360-679-4657
>
> I WOULD ALSO LIKE THE NAME OF THE OWNER SINCE IT CHANGED HANDS FROM ART
> RESSEL-----ANY INFO WOULD BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED.
>
> "HAWK"
> Michael pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor Florida 34684
> E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com
>
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500 mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
> writes:
> >Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day
> >"Hawken
> >Shop"?
> >
> >Your most humble and obedient servant,
> >mdwatts@naxs.com
> >HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
> >M. D. Watts
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Ron at Lewis Fork Free Trappers
Date: 16 Dec 1998 10:50:16 -0700
Ron from Lewis Fork Free Trappers, please contact me concerning the John
Johnston articles I am trying to send to you, they keep coming back
undeliverable. Longtrail
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes
Date: 16 Dec 1998 11:11:54 -0700
Lee,
Yeah, smoking hides really deters the bugs. If you don't smoke furs or
hair-on hides, you are really asking for it.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 16 Dec 1998 10:15:17 -0800
White Wolf,
The address is "Native Seeds/Search" 526 N. 4th Ave., Tucson, Arizona 85705. Be
sure to ask for a catalogue that will have native tobacco seeds offered in it.
You will have close to a dozen different types to choose from.
As to cultivation, it requires lots of sun and fertile soil. Pinch the flower
heads off and when fully mature, pull the whole plant up and hang upside down in
the garage or shed. Crush or cut the dried leaves and mix with what ever you care
to add. Keep in a closed container or it will get very dry. To carry 'period' I
would make a leather pouch as I think that is how it was done but I know that
metal tobacco "canteens" were made and used to carry it in a more moist condition.
You can of course make it moist by putting a slice of apple or even potato in the
bag or whatever the container and the tobacco will draw moisture and become
supple. Hope that helps a bit. I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
WhteWolf1@aol.com wrote:
> Thanks for the Info On Tobacco.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tommy Edge <tedge@nex.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject)
Date: 16 Dec 1998 00:42:33 -0800
unsubscribe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 10:54:23 -0800
Matt,
Thanks for the opportunity to express MY OPINION on what I think is correct.
Some will agree and some will argue but that is what we are here for.
Matt Richards wrote:
> My limited experience at rendezvous' has been that folks are much more
> concerned with cuts and styles than with materials....ie ... its just fine
> to wear chrome-tan leggings, but wear brain tan in anything besides the
> styles portrayed in the same three books on Mtn Man gear that everyone has
> read, and its inappropriate (this is a gross generalization but illustrates
> my point).
It is not just fine to wear chrome tan leggings. It is always just fine to wear
brain tan. Chrome tan is an expedient because of the supposed difficulty in
making brain tan or the expense. There were other leathers available to the era
but not chrome tan. It usually dosen't look right either. I'm not sure what you
asked in the next sentence but it is always correct to wear garments of the
correct style for the period and they should be made of the same materials and
be of the same cuts as was originally worn. But the Mt. Man did not always were
leather. Cloth was much more popular and widly worn than popularly thought.
> My feeling on this is that what is most 'accurate' is to use period
> appropriate materials, and basically period appropriate styles, but that
> there is some room for personal adaptation.... ie .... I find it hard to
> believe that Mtn Men were slaves to fashion.
I think the Mt. Man and Long Hunter were more blended together in reality. But
that is another topic. I think they were more slaves to fashion than you
suggest, in that they were slow to adapt new things and ideas, i. e. the
reluctance to embrace the new cap lock technology. Many fashions of the 1700's
were still being worn in the 1830's. There may be room for personal adaptation
but not as much as many folks at the more open club shoots and National
Rendezvous have done.
> It seems much more realistic
> that most had some basic concepts about clothing in common (based on what
> was commonly used in the period), but they adapted them to fit their own
> needs because they were practical people who knew how to do stuff, and had
> to adapt in order to survive. If a guy found it more practical to wear high
> top moccasins in the area he was working in because there were so damn many
> burs, he'd make some, even if that wasn't typical of that area.......and
> even if he'd never been exposed to high-tops, he'd have enough brain power
> to think that making his mocs higher would help keep grass seeds from
> working their way down into his feet and being very painful (this is just a
> quick example).......or perhaps the location of his buttons, or using a
> drawstring, or other simple yet practical variations.
High top moccasin were worn. Though some will tell you different, most all
styles of moccasins of the era and earlier were also worn. I have heard it said
that the Mt. Man worn nothing but side seam high tops. That is simply not true.
They wore center seam, pucker toes, hard soled two piece, along with boots and
shoes of eastern manufacture. What they didn't wear were what you can buy from
Cabellas and such places. As to burs and such, most contemporary paintings show
the legging or pantaloon worn down over the moccasin so there is protection from
burs and sand. I'm sure that there were pants style garments etc. with different
types of closures and such but I believe they would have felt really out of
place to have to wear a pair of breeches that were buttoned in a way different
from what the norm was at the time.
> With brain tan continueing as our example, what little remnants of mountain
> man and Native garments I've seen in museums has always surprised me how
> much it didn't fit into the stereotypes I see so much recreation of.
> Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate to wear brain-tan that is based upon a
> highly stylized later period garment (like levi's), but to me this type of
> 're-enactment' seems more in keeping with the spirit of who these folks were
> and how they lived.
Might be in the spirit but not correct. The reason you see examples in museums
that don't fit what you see at many rendezvous is because these garment were
collected long after the era in question and are not always representative of
what was actually worn. Many folks over the years have spent their hard earned
money on leather garments made as we make garments today and it is hard to throw
them away or even recut them. There are a lot of misconceptions about how they
lived and part of the problem is the way they have been romanticized so much by
us and the entertainment industry.
Lest I dig myself into too big a hole, I will stop and wait for others thoughts
on this. I hope this has been of help to you and remember that this is my heart
felt belief but I may be shown the error of my ways by others. I remain.......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ron" <cstmzd@ida.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 12:49:52 -0700
Is there a web site where I can learn more about the
> AMM?
>
> Matt Richards
> www.braintan.com
Matt,
Here's the link to AMM
<http://mtmen.org/amm/>
Lonewolf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: MtMan-List: References to Traps
Date: 16 Dec 1998 15:37:13 -0500
In the reader's opinion, what is the single best reference to traps used
during the Fur Trade era?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 13:48:03 -0700
Capt. Lahti,
Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was
referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit
Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across
the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different
from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff...... The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means
cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on
the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the
area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His
buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white
buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but
unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for
you.
Cut-outs were fairly common on Native American shirts from the Plains, but
not with any kind of backing besides their own bare skin. To get a basic
idea of what I mean by cut-outs, check out the collar area of Michelle's
dress at www.braintan.com/buckskindesigns/dress.html . Its not meant to be
period, but she incorporated this traditional motif.
I'm also curious about the basis of your comment "the Mt. Man did not always
where
leather. Cloth was much more popular and widely worn than popularly thought"
While it is clear that cloth was used and not uncommon; in any paintings,
drawings or writings of this era in the Rocky Mtn. that I have seen,
buckskin does predominate. Are you talking about in the settlements....or do
some people believe cloth wasn't used at all?
My last question for ya, is what other leathers do you know were used by Mtn
Men of this era. I know bark tan was common for certain articles, and have
seen clear references to alum tan....anything else?
Really enjoying your knowledge,
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 16:46:51 -0500
Unfortunately I think you are wrong. Fashion at this time period said who you
were in society. Status was everything to men and women. They may not have
been as modest (thanks to the Victorians) as we are today...are we??? Thank God
today we have the freedom to wear what we want. But they were the slaves to
fashion. Now it did take some styles 100 or so years to change, but you took
care of those clothes. Clothing is even mentioned as part of your wealth because
it was so expensive to make or have. They didn't have walk-in-closets back
then. Most everything you had in clothing could be put in a bag. Part of the
estate wills , lists how many dresses, shirts, chemise, blouses, stays,
waistcoats, etc. you may have owned. (Any cross dressers out there???) These
were passed down and used by the next generation. There are several books
written at the time period which go into how your clothing looked on them and how
many times worn. What the item was worn for and how to change that one little
scarf to make it change for the occasion. The morals, mental attitudes toward
sex, women and men are very different today than then. It did affect what they
wore, when and how.
Must go....have to throw that "T-shirt" on for the formal dinner I am going
to. Now, do I wear the one with the Santa or the one with the blinking
lights. And did I mention pants.
Linda Holley
MIA3WOLVES@aol.com wrote:
> I think that you have hit upon my sentiments exactly. The people of the 19th
> century
> certainly weren't as concerned about the fashion police as we in the 20th
> century ssem to be. I am a quillwork. I do both hitorically accurrate and
> creative pieces. I am guided by who commissions what and when they want to
> pay me. I have traced my family roots back to the 1600's and am pretty sure
> they operated in the same way.
>
> Red Hawk
>
> MIA3wolves@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke???
Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:14:47 -0500
From Linda Holley...a few quick remarks......
> From Matt Richards:
> ......one quick note with the 'hide smoking' tradition is that many native
> tribes did not smoke their hides, and most only smoked hides destined to get
> wet & dry frequently....like moccasins and leggings.....the idea that
> unsmoked or white hides were purely ceremonial is simply a myth, at leastfor
> the vast majority of Plains and western tribe
I would agree with you an some parts of this. But the many leggings I have held
in my hot little hands were not smoked or after all these years had lost the
smoke color. Hard to tell unless you pulled apart areas of an article to look
inside or at a seam to see the old smoke. After they are cleaned and restored
for the museum display you have to look hard. But a lot of the leggings never
got wet. Unfortunately, we really, on the most part, only see in the museums
the good stuff. Who kept the work a day things? I have seen very few of
these. Just the very decorated. Someone who could comment on this is Allen
Chronister or Bill and Kathy Brewer, or Cathy Smith or Joe.
>
> However, people
> of that era lived a very smokey lifestyle, and from my own experience, it
> takes very little to functionally smoke a hide so that bugs stay out of it,
Has that life style been in a tipi???? I try not to smoke mine up. And as for
hanging my leathers around the old lining of the tipi, not so. They are kept in
their parflech containers where the fine Western powder dirt can not get into
it and turn them gray looking. Mt. St. Helen dust killed the lovely white
color of my parfleches to a dirty gray and one white dress was murder to
clean. That stuff got into everything. Wouldn't the same thing have happened
back then????
Out West dirt is hard to get out of smoked or unsmoked hides. That is why
Native had ways of cleaning the hide. And not by washing too much. Pumice
stone is great for getting out some rubbed in dirt or white clay balls that you
rub into the leather. That just mostly hides the dirt. There is a lot of smoke
when cooking out side, but not in your best beaded dress or shirt. Natives had
their work clothes and their dress clothes. And you keep your tipi neat
inside. Nothing like having guest drop by and a dress falls on their head or
the fringe from a shirt keeps getting in the way of your mouth.
>
> and it can get wet and still dry soft....and this is why I believe that so
> many tribes did so little smoking------the hides got smoked anyway! Just by
> hanging out in the lodges and around fires.
>
> Matt Richards
> www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:21:49 -0800
Matt & company:
(Somewhat) along the subject of braintan, I have acquired a sizeable piece of
elk hide. It's over 2 ft wide and over 6 ft long, very dark (almost black),
very soft, suede-like fuzzy on one side and leather-like smooth on the other.
How would I go about figuring out how it was tanned? Assume that the source of
the hide does not know any more than I do. Since I've never seen a black elk, I
believe it is safe to presume that the hide has been dyed. Does that fact alone
render this material unsuitable for pre-1840 re-enactment? How can I become
confident that if I use this material, I won't get tossed out of camp?
Tom
Matt Richards wrote:
> Here are some answers to Andrea's questions on braintan....
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Sickler, Louis L" <louis.l.sickler@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 16 Dec 1998 15:30:36 -0700
Tom, Just my thoughts...
1) Since you have suede/grain surfaces, I would think it was commercially
tanned.
2) Black color definitely means dyed, skins are naturally whitish.
3) Cut the outer edge of the leather, look at the edge. The dye doesn't
usually penetrate all the way through. If you see a grayish-green layer in
between the black layers, this is the distinctive color of chrome tan.
4) IMHO, dyed leather (not smoked) just looks out of place, no matter what
color it is. The dyes used just don't come close, even the so-called Smoke
color leather.
5) Unsuitable, I won't judge. I wouldn't make clothing out of it (it sounds
too small anyway), maybe there's some way to make some useful, unobtrusive
accoutrement out of it. If all else fails, make something not intended to be
a part of your primitive attire. A good chunk of elk leather is ALWAYS
useful to have.
Hope this helps some,
Hyar's Luck,
Red Coyote
> ----------
> From: Thomas W. Roberts
> Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 18:21
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
>
> Matt & company:
>
> (Somewhat) along the subject of braintan, I have acquired a sizeable piece
> of
> elk hide. It's over 2 ft wide and over 6 ft long, very dark (almost
> black),
> very soft, suede-like fuzzy on one side and leather-like smooth on the
> other.
> How would I go about figuring out how it was tanned? Assume that the
> source of
> the hide does not know any more than I do. Since I've never seen a black
> elk, I
> believe it is safe to presume that the hide has been dyed. Does that fact
> alone
> render this material unsuitable for pre-1840 re-enactment? How can I
> become
> confident that if I use this material, I won't get tossed out of camp?
>
> Tom
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke???
Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:29:40 EST
Linda wrote:
> Has that life style been in a tipi???? I try not to smoke mine up. And as
> for hanging my leathers around the old lining of the tipi, not so.
Early tipis were made from hides. While I can't remember the reference, it
was quoted that after one year as a tipi covering, the now-smoked hides were
turned into robes, clothing, mocs and other accessories; and the process
started over again with fresh hides every year. This would seem logical and
would kill two birds with one hide.
Dave Kanger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:33:07 EST
In a message dated 98-12-16 17:15:47 EST, you write:
> Since I've never seen a black elk, I
> believe it is safe to presume that the hide has been dyed. Does that fact
> alone render this material unsuitable for pre-1840 re-enactment?
Hides that are bark tanned with sumac added to the brew come out almost black,
a deep, buckeye chesnut brown.
Dave Kanger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net
Subject: MtMan-List: French/Indian
Date: 04 Oct 1998 00:35:38 -0500
Greetings to the list,
I know the Mt. Man era doesn't cover the French/Indian war, but I
was wondering if anyone knew of a (preferably local -Dallas, TX)
historical group that did? ...& just how forgivable is someone showing
up to Rendezvous in the wrong era costume? I've been to maybe 3 'vous &
no one said anything to me, but I've posted a few questions about the
Scottish in that time period & folks were adamant about the
French/Indian not being part of Mt. Man era. ...Just Curious. Thanx
TURTLE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: misc. topics
Date: 16 Dec 1998 16:49:39 +0100
Every time I tell myself I don't need to spout off
something comes along, such as Linda Holley's
suggestion that I jump in. So, this is 2 cents
worth on a couple of recent items:
1. There were many, many commercial tanneries in
the US in the erly 19th century. Enough that most
any community of any size had one relatively close
by. Most of the tanning was for heavy leather,
but a significant part went into garment leather
which in turn was mostly used for breeches and
gloves. I believe that as the breeches went out
of fashion in the first quarter of the 19th
century, leather pantaloons were manufactured on
the same basis. As far as I know most of this
tanning was bark tanning. There is an obscure
Smithsonian publication called something like the
history of tanning in America that has a lot of
info in it.
It is very difficult to know whether a pair of
"leather" or "deer skin" or "hide" (all terms
being used) pantaloons bought at the AFC retail
store in St Louis were made of native-prepared
("Braintain") hide or commercially-tanned hide.
(Same goes for leather "hunting shirts" from same
time and place) I believe it could have been
either.
Its too bad that someone does not turn out bark
tan garment leather today (or do they?)
2. Yes, indeed, the "mountain man" of the 1820-30
period had and used lots of fabric clothing.
While it was leather that they tended to mentionin
their diary descriptions of their colorful friends
and that AJ Miller painted and drew, it was cloth
that they bought when they had the chance. Cloth
shirts, vests, pantaloons and coats were very
common in the field in the West. Please see the
piece that Clay Landry and I did in BOB VII for
more info.
3. I believe that Plains Indian people used
smoked hides much more than "common knowledge"
would lead you to believe for all kinds of
applications, not just everyday clothes. There
are numerous references to old lodge covers being
recycled into clothing and other uses. Gilbert
Wilson's ethnographical material on the Hidatsa is
a good source that comes to mind. Much of the old
bead and quillwork was done on soft, very dark
brown buffalo hide that almost certainly came from
old lodges. 35 years ago Norm Feder and Milford
Chandler tried to coin the term "old tipi top" for
this material, but it never really caught on.
In addition, very close inspection of finer,
special-occasion19the century items (such as
pipebags and heavily beaded moccasins) shows that
they were not-uncommonly made from smoked hide.
After 150 years or so the smell and usually most
of the color is gone, and all that would vary
depending on how heavily it was smoked to begin
with. A friend of mine who gets to handle a lot
of original 19th century Plains material has
gotten me clued into the fact that smoked hide was
the original basis for much of the finer items
that many of us have always just assumed was made
with white hide because it was "dress" or
"ceremonial" stuff.
See what I mean, don't know when to stop.
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 18:38:54 EST
Yes, you are right when speaking about the white well to do but not everyone
was wealthy nor necessarily caucasians. Some of us seems to have been on
reservations and in lumber camps.
Red Hawk
MIA3wolves@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 16:15:57 -0800
Matt,
Thanks for the compliment on my OPINIONS.
Matt Richards wrote:
> Capt. Lahti,
>
> Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was
> referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit
> Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across
> the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different
> from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff......
What year was this jacket collected from? If it was from mid to late in the
1800's then it may not be representative of what Kit and others wore in the
field. If you mean different from what many wear today that is not surprising.
If you mean different from what the historical record (such as it is ) shows,
see first two lines above.
> The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means
> cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on
> the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the
> area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His
> buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white
> buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but
> unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for
> you.
I think I have seen jackets like this in pictures or other museums but cool or
not is it what was worn on the frontier in the early 1800's? I personally
suspect not.
> Cut-outs were fairly common on Native American shirts from the Plains, but
> not with any kind of backing besides their own bare skin. To get a basic
> idea of what I mean by cut-outs, check out the collar area of Michelle's
> dress at www.braintan.com/buckskindesigns/dress.html . Its not meant to be
> period, but she incorporated this traditional motif.
Haven't gone to see the dress yet but I bet it is beautiful. The problem is that
if you take such a garment that isn't period by your own observation to a
rendezvous, others that don't know will think that this is what was worn and
will copy the mistake. That is why we are where we are today on many things.
> I'm also curious about the basis of your comment "the Mt. Man did not always
> where
> leather. Cloth was much more popular and widely worn than popularly thought"
> While it is clear that cloth was used and not uncommon; in any paintings,
> drawings or writings of this era in the Rocky Mtn. that I have seen,
> buckskin does predominate. Are you talking about in the settlements....or do
> some people believe cloth wasn't used at all?
The accounts and ledgers of goods that went west with the traders are full of a
large assortment of cloth yardage's and garments for sale to the trapper,
engage', factor, and indian. It makes a much more romantic picture to dress you
hero's in buckskin but does that jive with the reality of the historical record?
The use of leather as a total covering was not as widely used as is thought. For
leggings and foot coverings and when something of cloth wore out, yes. But I
don't believe they all wore buckskin from head to toe but rather wore cloth
when they could. I'm also pretty sure they didn't throw away their cloth
clothing as they crossed the Wide Missouri.
> My last question for ya, is what other leathers do you know were used by Mtn
> Men of this era. I know bark tan was common for certain articles, and have
> seen clear references to alum tan....anything else?
Oil tan for one. There is a good article on period leather in one of the last
volumes of "The Book of Buckskinning" series. The manufacture of leather by
europeans on this continent goes way back and the "Mt. Man" didn't reject the
goods of the east, but far from it hungered for many such things. Many pairs of
manufactured shoes went west to the gatherings and surely not to sell or trade
to the indians. They weren't made of brain tan either. Not an expert on any
thing and surely not on types of leather. I do love brain tan and wear as much
of it as I can stand. I assume you tan?
Well hope this didn't come over as condescending or dismissive of your thoughts.
That is not the intent. These are my considered opinions and I'm sure there are
large holes in my understanding of the era. You too have an obvious interest in
historically correct re-enacting and much knowledge too. Hope this has been of
help. I remain.......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke???
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:28:25 -0500
You are right on the tipis for the covers. It seems many a moc. was made from
the cover. But it did take time to smoke it up. Some lodges lasted a little
longer. Thanks for reminding me of the usage of Smoky old tipi covers.
Linda Holley
ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote:
> Linda wrote:
> > Has that life style been in a tipi???? I try not to smoke mine up. And as
> > for hanging my leathers around the old lining of the tipi, not so.
>
> Early tipis were made from hides. While I can't remember the reference, it
> was quoted that after one year as a tipi covering, the now-smoked hides were
> turned into robes, clothing, mocs and other accessories; and the process
> started over again with fresh hides every year. This would seem logical and
> would kill two birds with one hide.
>
> Dave Kanger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc. topics
Date: 16 Dec 1998 16:26:56 -0800
Allen,
You rascal. Here I spend most of my available brain power trying to say
what you just said in my feeble way and you are setting there typing out
what all wanted to hear said in the first place! At least we agree. And
now I know which Allen Chronister you are. I know there are not two of
you. Well I enjoyed your BOB VII article and wish such had been done
decades ago. Thanks for the excellent clarification of this topic. I
remain.......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Allen Chronister wrote:
> Every time I tell myself I don't need to spout off
> something comes along, such as Linda Holley's
> suggestion that I jump in.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "John L. Allen" <jlallen@snet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mileage
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:30:16 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE292A.82AE9F80
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gail,
Yeah, ain't it so. One of the things that first got me interested in =
distance perception was reading migrant journals and comparing distance =
estimates with my "known" environment of the High Plains / Rocky =
Mountain front region. A story: Part of my growing-up was in Laramie, =
Wyoming: high basin country with a major mountain range to the west, =
about 30 miles away. My grandpa used to tell of an Eastern tourist who =
started out early one morning to walk from Laramie to the mountains. =
About noon, a rancher west of town found the dude, stripped to his =
skivvies and about to dive into an irrigation ditch in the rancher's hay =
meadow. Since the ditch was only a couple of feet wide, the rancher =
asked the greenhorn what in the world was he doing. The dude's reply: =
"Well, I've been walking all morning to get to those mountains that are =
so near I can practically reach out and touch them. I'm no closer to =
them now than when I started six hours ago--and I'm not about to try to =
jump over this ditch."
Easterners and mid-Westerners often had (and have) trouble judging =
Western distances. They were and are fooled by the clarity of the =
atmosphere at higher elevations, an effect that often makes distant =
objects appear closer to eyes accustomed to looking through "more air" =
(the atmosphere is noticeably more dense at sea level than it is at a =
mile above sea level). My guess is that the Oregon-bound Missouri farmer =
in 1846 could estimate distances in his native Missouri just fine. But =
put him in the High Plains of eastern Nebraska, in the clear air of 5000 =
feet of elevation and a dry climate, and asking him to judge the =
distance from, say, the Platte River to Chimney Rock would have yielded =
pretty inaccurate results. The mountain men, on the other hand, =
operating in their known environment of high altitudes, dry air, and =
"large" landscapes, would have judged distances much more accurately.
John
Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
jlallen@snet.net
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Gail Carbiener=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mileage
John, et al.
At a later date, it is interesting to read how many emigrants on =
the Oregon, California, Morman Trails misjudged the distance to major =
landmarks such as mountain tops or even Chimney Rock in Wyoming. Almost =
all diaries record that it "looks so close" but ends up being miles =
farther than estimated.=20
Gail
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE292A.82AE9F80
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<STYLE></STYLE>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 5.00.0910.1309"' name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Gail,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Yeah, ain't it so. One of the things that first got =
me=20
interested in distance perception was reading migrant journals and =
comparing=20
distance estimates with my "known" environment of the High =
Plains /=20
Rocky Mountain front region. A story: Part of my growing-up was in =
Laramie,=20
Wyoming: high basin country with a major mountain range to the west, =
about 30=20
miles away. My grandpa used to tell of an Eastern tourist who started =
out early=20
one morning to walk from Laramie to the mountains. About noon, a rancher =
west of=20
town found the dude, stripped to his skivvies and about to dive into an=20
irrigation ditch in the rancher's hay meadow. Since the ditch was only a =
couple=20
of feet wide, the rancher asked the greenhorn what in the world was he =
doing.=20
The dude's reply: "Well, I've been walking all morning to get to =
those=20
mountains that are so near I can practically reach out and touch them. =
I'm no=20
closer to them now than when I started six hours ago--and I'm not about =
to try=20
to jump over this ditch."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Easterners and mid-Westerners often had (and have) =
trouble=20
judging Western distances. They were and are fooled by the clarity of =
the=20
atmosphere at higher elevations, an effect that often makes distant =
objects=20
appear closer to eyes accustomed to looking through "more air" =
(the=20
atmosphere is noticeably more dense at sea level than it is at a mile =
above sea=20
level). My guess is that the Oregon-bound Missouri farmer in 1846 could =
estimate=20
distances in his native Missouri just fine. But put him in the High =
Plains of=20
eastern Nebraska, in the clear air of 5000 feet of elevation and a dry =
climate,=20
and asking him to judge the distance from, say, the Platte River to =
Chimney=20
Rock would have yielded pretty inaccurate results. The mountain men, on =
the=20
other hand, operating in their known environment of high altitudes, dry =
air, and=20
"large" landscapes, would have judged distances much more=20
accurately.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>John</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dr. John L. Allen<BR>21 Thomas Drive<BR>Storrs, CT=20
06268<BR>860/487-1346<BR>jlallen@snet.net</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:carbg@cmc.net" title=3Dcarbg@cmc.net>Gail Carbiener</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:28 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Mileage</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John, et al.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> At a later =
date, it is=20
interesting to read how many emigrants on the Oregon, California, =
Morman=20
Trails misjudged the distance to major landmarks such as mountain tops =
or even=20
Chimney Rock in Wyoming. Almost all diaries record that it "looks =
so=20
close" but ends up being miles farther than estimated. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>Gail</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE292A.82AE9F80--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French/Indian
Date: 16 Dec 1998 16:34:00 -0800
Turtle,
Let them be adamant. The Scotts were very prominent in the fur trade as
leaders, owners, workers and trappers. As to being welcome, there are many
who have gone before you so don't feel like you are breaking new ground by
coming to rendezvous dressed and outfitted more like someone from the F and
I or longhunter era. My philosophy with the fellas I have influence with is:
re-create whom ever you want in the pre 1840 time frame, just do it right! I
remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote:
> Greetings to the list,
>
> I know the Mt. Man era doesn't cover the French/Indian war, but I
> was wondering
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:35:34 -0600
Why do I get the impression that I am being set up on this one?
<Opinion starts here> "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" by Carl
P. Russell. <Opinion stops here> I have the Seventh Printing, University of
New Mexico Press that has 60+ pages on beaver traps and trapping. That is
more than I would ever want to know about beaver traps.
Iron Burner
-----Original Message-----
>In the reader's opinion, what is the single best reference to traps used
>during the Fur Trade era?
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:39:13 -0600
Indeed, the whims of fashion produced the livelihood of the mountain men.
Iron Burner
-----Original Message-----
> Fashion at this time period said who you
>were in society. Status was everything to men and women.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:31:17 -0700
I sort of agree and disagree with both of you. I don't think being in
fashion was that big a deal to the mountain men. What I figure is this.
When your pants wore out in the mountains you would luse them for a pattern
to make buckskin pants. If your old ones were drop fronts(prevalent at
that time) your new buckskins would be in fashion whether you intended for
them to be or not.
DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
Linda Holley wrote:
>Unfortunately I think you are wrong. Fashion at this time period said
who you
>were in society. Status was everything to men and women. They may not
have
>been as modest (thanks to the Victorians) as we are today...are we???
Thank God
>today we have the freedom to wear what we want. But they were the
slaves to
>fashion. Now it did take some styles 100 or so years to change, but
you took
>care of those clothes. Clothing is even mentioned as part of your
wealth
>because
>it was so expensive to make or have. They didn't have walk-in-closets
back
>then. Most everything you had in clothing could be put in a bag. Part
of the
>estate wills , lists how many dresses, shirts, chemise, blouses, stays,
>waistcoats, etc. you may have owned. (Any cross dressers out there???)
These
>were passed down and used by the next generation. There are several
books
>written at the time period which go into how your clothing looked on
them
>and how
>many times worn. What the item was worn for and how to change that one
little
>scarf to make it change for the occasion. The morals, mental attitudes
toward
>sex, women and men are very different today than then. It did affect
what they
>wore, when and how.
> Must go....have to throw that "T-shirt" on for the formal dinner I
am going
>to. Now, do I wear the one with the Santa or the one with the blinking
>lights. And did I mention pants.
>
>Linda Holley
>
>MIA3WOLVES@aol.com wrote:
>
>> I think that you have hit upon my sentiments exactly. The people of
the 19th
>> century
>> certainly weren't as concerned about the fashion police as we in the
20th
>> century ssem to be. I am a quillwork. I do both hitorically
accurrate and
>> creative pieces. I am guided by who commissions what and when they
want to
>> pay me. I have traced my family roots back to the 1600's and am
pretty sure
>> they operated in the same way.
>>
>> Red Hawk
>>
>> MIA3wolves@aol.com
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
ESMTP
> (SMTPD32-4.03) id A891B013E; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:39:29 MDT
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
> id 0zqOe7-0006gX-00
> for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:38:15 -0700
>Received: from [24.129.0.53] (helo=escambia.se.mediaone.net)
> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
> id 0zqOe5-0006gS-00
> for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:38:13 -0700
>Received: from mediaone.net (surf4636.jacksonville.net [24.129.50.236])
> by escambia.se.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23529
> for <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:38:10 -0500
(EST)
>Message-ID: <36782A4A.D3441AA@mediaone.net>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:46:51 -0500
>From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
>Organization: Holley Arts
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-DIAL (Win98; U)
>X-Accept-Language: en
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
>References: <dc51588c.36779eec@aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>X-UIDL: 909625004
>Status: U
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc. topics
Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:46:29 -0500
Thanks Allen, I knew you couldn't resist to fill in the giant gaps I
left out. Your knowledge is greatly appreciated. I learn a lot from
you.
Linda Holley
Allen Chronister wrote:
> Every time I tell myself I don't need to spout off
> something comes along, such as Linda Holley's
> suggestion that I jump in. So, this is 2 cents
> worth on a couple of recent items:
> 1. There were many, many commercial tanneries in
> the US in the erly 19th century. Enough that most
> any community of any size had one relatively close
> by. Most of the tanning was for heavy leather,
> but a significant part went into garment leather
> which in turn was mostly used for breeches and
> gloves. I believe that as the breeches went out
> of fashion in the first quarter of the 19th
> century, leather pantaloons were manufactured on
> the same basis. As far as I know most of this
> tanning was bark tanning. There is an obscure
> Smithsonian publication called something like the
> history of tanning in America that has a lot of
> info in it.
> It is very difficult to know whether a pair of
> "leather" or "deer skin" or "hide" (all terms
> being used) pantaloons bought at the AFC retail
> store in St Louis were made of native-prepared
> ("Braintain") hide or commercially-tanned hide.
> (Same goes for leather "hunting shirts" from same
> time and place) I believe it could have been
> either.
> Its too bad that someone does not turn out bark
> tan garment leather today (or do they?)
> 2. Yes, indeed, the "mountain man" of the 1820-30
> period had and used lots of fabric clothing.
> While it was leather that they tended to mentionin
> their diary descriptions of their colorful friends
> and that AJ Miller painted and drew, it was cloth
> that they bought when they had the chance. Cloth
> shirts, vests, pantaloons and coats were very
> common in the field in the West. Please see the
> piece that Clay Landry and I did in BOB VII for
> more info.
> 3. I believe that Plains Indian people used
> smoked hides much more than "common knowledge"
> would lead you to believe for all kinds of
> applications, not just everyday clothes. There
> are numerous references to old lodge covers being
> recycled into clothing and other uses. Gilbert
> Wilson's ethnographical material on the Hidatsa is
> a good source that comes to mind. Much of the old
> bead and quillwork was done on soft, very dark
> brown buffalo hide that almost certainly came from
> old lodges. 35 years ago Norm Feder and Milford
> Chandler tried to coin the term "old tipi top" for
> this material, but it never really caught on.
> In addition, very close inspection of finer,
> special-occasion19the century items (such as
> pipebags and heavily beaded moccasins) shows that
> they were not-uncommonly made from smoked hide.
> After 150 years or so the smell and usually most
> of the color is gone, and all that would vary
> depending on how heavily it was smoked to begin
> with. A friend of mine who gets to handle a lot
> of original 19th century Plains material has
> gotten me clued into the fact that smoked hide was
> the original basis for much of the finer items
> that many of us have always just assumed was made
> with white hide because it was "dress" or
> "ceremonial" stuff.
> See what I mean, don't know when to stop.
> Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:20:09 EST
Broom straw is grown. I have seen craftsmen making brooms at Silver Dollar
City in Branson, MO during their craft festivile during the entire month of
Oct.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:59:07 -0500
My response was for the 1780 period to 1860. And it does cover most of the
social classes. That includes the poor to the rich. The study of the Anglo
Society as well as the immigrant, is very extensive for the time period.
Manners, customs and morality was written about all the time. I own several
original books of the time period which are very descriptive. These books were
the magazines of the time. And there are re-prints of the News papers published
in several of the larger cities. As for the Indian population, that is another
research paper. But were we on the reservations out West before 1850? And I
do not mean the Oklahoma trail of tears that Jackson pulled off. The plain
Indian was still fairly free on the Great Plains.
Also very curious as to the lumber camp statement????
Linda Holley
MIA3WOLVES@aol.com wrote:
> Yes, you are right when speaking about the white well to do but not everyone
> was wealthy nor necessarily caucasians. Some of us seems to have been on
> reservations and in lumber camps.
>
> Red Hawk
>
> MIA3wolves@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@onr.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French/Indian
Date: 16 Dec 1998 20:58:30 -0600
Not a problem in terms of finding folks interested in the F&I War in your
area. We have full-fledged war games on occasion. Send me a mailing
address and I will get you some literature on groups you may be interested
in assocating with in Texas. Also, most rendezvous in our area now have a
fair number of 1700's era reenactors, so you will not be out of place.
Regards, Paul
-----Original Message-----
> Greetings to the list,
>
> I know the Mt. Man era doesn't cover the French/Indian war, but I
>was wondering if anyone knew of a (preferably local -Dallas, TX)
>historical group that did? ...& just how forgivable is someone showing
>up to Rendezvous in the wrong era costume? I've been to maybe 3 'vous &
>no one said anything to me, but I've posted a few questions about the
>Scottish in that time period & folks were adamant about the
>French/Indian not being part of Mt. Man era. ...Just Curious. Thanx
>
>
>TURTLE
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:15:56 -0800
RC, thanks for the reply.
Well, a hunting pouch is what I had in mind - grain side out - patterned after
one of the many fine examples in Madison Grant's book. My intention was to
apply (as waterproofing) a fairly liberal amount of beeswax which would have a
darkening effect anyways. Yes, your recommended test indicates the commercial
tanning (grey interior), hopefully someone may chime in with some chronology of
commercial tanning processes, as in was it historically done and if so, how
early. If it's not right, I don't want to waste the effort using this stuff,
no matter how nice it feels or what it cost. One lesson to be shared is that,
regardless of event rules which require goods to be period appropriate, one must
still verify. For example, at a recent event I purchased a pair of woolen
gloves purported to have been hand knitted by some distant northern aunt. Only
after arriving back home did I turn them inside-out to find a "Made in Tiawan -
15% acrylic" tag. My naive presumption of automatic honesty for rondezvous
traders went out the window. Sorry I've let this message wander so far off
course.
Tom
Sickler, Louis L wrote:
> Tom, Just my thoughts...
>
> 1) Since you have suede/grain surfaces, I would think it was commercially
> tanned.
>
> 2) Black color definitely means dyed, skins are naturally whitish.
>
> 3) Cut the outer edge of the leather, look at the edge. The dye doesn't
> usually penetrate all the way through. If you see a grayish-green layer in
> between the black layers, this is the distinctive color of chrome tan.
>
> 4) IMHO, dyed leather (not smoked) just looks out of place, no matter what
> color it is. The dyes used just don't come close, even the so-called Smoke
> color leather.
>
> 5) Unsuitable, I won't judge. I wouldn't make clothing out of it (it sounds
> too small anyway), maybe there's some way to make some useful, unobtrusive
> accoutrement out of it. If all else fails, make something not intended to be
> a part of your primitive attire. A good chunk of elk leather is ALWAYS
> useful to have.
>
> Hope this helps some,
>
> Hyar's Luck,
> Red Coyote
>
> > ----------
> > From: Thomas W. Roberts
> > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 18:21
> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
> >
> > Matt & company:
> >
> > (Somewhat) along the subject of braintan, I have acquired a sizeable piece
> > of
> > elk hide. It's over 2 ft wide and over 6 ft long, very dark (almost
> > black),
> > very soft, suede-like fuzzy on one side and leather-like smooth on the
> > other.
> > How would I go about figuring out how it was tanned? Assume that the
> > source of
> > the hide does not know any more than I do. Since I've never seen a black
> > elk, I
> > believe it is safe to presume that the hide has been dyed. Does that fact
> > alone
> > render this material unsuitable for pre-1840 re-enactment? How can I
> > become
> > confident that if I use this material, I won't get tossed out of camp?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French/Indian
Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:38:37 -0600
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE293C.70808500
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I live in the DFW metroplex and attend several rendezvous in this area. =
The club in which I am secretary, Comanche Peak Muzzleloaders, has a =
sizeable cadre of longhunters representing the F&I War period. You =
would be most welcome at our meetings and at our two rendezvous....the =
weekend of the second Sunday of October and of April. Meetings are at =
noon on every other second Sunday of the year. We share a pot luck =
lunch, followed by a brief meeting and, generally, a shoot. Bring =
something to eat with and your smokepole and come visit us. Other clubs =
in the area would also make you welcome. We tend to pay more attention =
to your attitude and what is in your heart that to which era your outfit =
represents. =20
Cordially
Lanney Ratcliff
rat@htcomp.net
-----Original Message-----
> Greetings to the list,
>
> I know the Mt. Man era doesn't cover the French/Indian war, but I
>was wondering if anyone knew of a (preferably local -Dallas, TX)
>historical group that did? ...& just how forgivable is someone showing
>up to Rendezvous in the wrong era costume? I've been to maybe 3 'vous =
&
>no one said anything to me, but I've posted a few questions about the
>Scottish in that time period & folks were adamant about the
>French/Indian not being part of Mt. Man era. ...Just Curious. Thanx
>
>
>TURTLE
>
>
>
------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE293C.70808500
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
name="98flyer.lth"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="98flyer.lth"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------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE293C.70808500--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Munroe Crutchley" <rocrutch@cdsnet.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff
Date: 16 Dec 1998 20:14:09 -0800
I'm reasonably new to the list. I shoot a muzzleloader, and I like to
research the fur trade era, but I'm just beginning to get interested in the
reenactment scene. I've been reading the posts about period correct
materials and styles, and I'm trying to sort it all out, so here's my $.02
worth:
It seems to me that authentic materials are very important because some
materials just didn't exist in times past and could never be period
correct. However, when it come to styles, that's a grayer area. For
example: If I had a piece of braintan elk and was going to make a hunting
bag, I might search for examples of originals to copy, or I might just make
the bag the size, style and shape that suited me best. I might use a
closure device that I thought would work well (provided it was made of
material available in the time period) even if nobody else's bag fastened
closed like mine did.
Isn't it reasonable to think that the mountain men of that era, free souls
that they were, would have done exactly the same when they made their
hunting bags...or anything else for that matter? I'm sure that certain
styles of any item predominated, but with so many hand-made or improvised
things, it seems mighty presumptuous to reject something just because we've
never seen a picture or example of one just like it.
Like I said, I'm just a rookie (hell, I'm not even a rookie yet!), so I
would appreciate your comments. If I'm straying off course with this line
of reasoning, point me back in the right direction.
Munroe Crutchley
Grants Pass, OR
rocrutch@cdsnet.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: JSeminerio@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps
Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:56:46 EST
In a message dated 12/15/98 11:58:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kierst@newmex.com writes:
<< My name is Joe Kierst and have been attending rendezvous for the past 3
years.Last night my dad had the idea of a buckskinner summer camp where
you could trap beaver,hunt,track,throw knives and tomahawks,make fires
with flint and steel,cure hides,pack a mule,shoot blackpowder rifles
and more.I would start this myself but Im only 12 and school takes up
most of my time but Im very willing to help in any way I can. >>
Hey Bub It's called the Eastern Rendezvous
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Frank <Buckskinner@gbis.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff
Date: 16 Dec 1998 20:36:55 -0800
Munroe,
Good question! We can speculate and imagine and improvise, but when it's all
said and done the only thing we know for sure are those things we have
historical documentation for. If, and I repeat IF your goal is to be
historically accurate you're pretty much stuck with that! There are several
levels of interest represented here on this list but the predominant goal is
for historical accuracy and understanding. Even with historical restraints
there is still room for individuality and creativity, you just have to look a
little harder to find the "primitive" way of doing it. It will be worth the
effort!
Medicine Bear
Munroe Crutchley wrote:
> I'm reasonably new to the list. I shoot a muzzleloader, and I like to
> research the fur trade era, but I'm just beginning to get interested in the
> reenactment scene. I've been reading the posts about period correct
> materials and styles, and I'm trying to sort it all out, so here's my $.02
> worth:
>
> It seems to me that authentic materials are very important because some
> materials just didn't exist in times past and could never be period
> correct. However, when it come to styles, that's a grayer area. For
> example: If I had a piece of braintan elk and was going to make a hunting
> bag, I might search for examples of originals to copy, or I might just make
> the bag the size, style and shape that suited me best. I might use a
> closure device that I thought would work well (provided it was made of
> material available in the time period) even if nobody else's bag fastened
> closed like mine did.
>
> Isn't it reasonable to think that the mountain men of that era, free souls
> that they were, would have done exactly the same when they made their
> hunting bags...or anything else for that matter? I'm sure that certain
> styles of any item predominated, but with so many hand-made or improvised
> things, it seems mighty presumptuous to reject something just because we've
> never seen a picture or example of one just like it.
>
> Like I said, I'm just a rookie (hell, I'm not even a rookie yet!), so I
> would appreciate your comments. If I'm straying off course with this line
> of reasoning, point me back in the right direction.
>
> Munroe Crutchley
> Grants Pass, OR
> rocrutch@cdsnet.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:54:50 -0700
Linda, but you are talking about society people and farmers....there are
many society people and farmers like that today. But then there are the
people who need to make do with what they have and occasionally improvise.
My suggestion is that the Mtn Men were more of this ilk, as there are folks
of this ilk today.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments
Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:51:09 -0700
Allen
I appreciate your spoutin off! Makes for good conversation and learning. I
disagree with you on a number of points....here goes.
1) You are right that there were 'commercial' tanneries throughout the
colonies and states...and that they predominantly bark tanned. In the
moderate amount of research I've done on this, I have found no evidence of
any other type of tanning being done in a tannery of the day.
Bark tan is not a material that has, or was, commonly used as a garment
leather in any period of time. Bark tanned leather just doesn't lend itself
well to garments (doesn't breath, is thicker and stiffer). Of course it's
excellent for shoes (in town), bags, water bottles, belts and countless
other uses. But garments ain't one of them (with the exception of armor in
the middle ages). Do you have any evidence of it being used for shirts,
jackets, breeches or the like during this era?
Bark tanneries were in fact one of the very earliest forms of
industrialization in the US, in the late 1700's. It lends itself to being
industrialized because it requires an immense quantity of bark to be
pounded, and that's the part of the process that was industrialized. Huge
toothed wheels were pulled around in a circle by horses and mules to crush
the bark.
I have never heard of any other type of tannery in the early US, if anyone
has, lets hear about it.
2.) Alan, you stated that "Most of the tanning was for heavy leather,
but a significant part went into garment leather
which in turn was mostly used for breeches and
gloves. I believe that as the breeches went out
of fashion in the first quarter of the 19th
century, leather pantaloons were manufactured on
the same basis."
I am very curious to know of any primary sources for this information.
My understanding from primary source research is that hundreds of thousands
of hides were sent to England.....many of them already brain and smoke
tanned by Natives (such as the Creeks). As the 1700's went on, an increasing
amount of these exported deerskins were sent untanned. They were then tanned
in Europe, using an oil tanning process, and many of these were then shipped
back to the US for use in garments. Many more hides were tanned on people's
homesteads and in their backyards for use as garment leathers (this is
generally presumed to be brain tanning, though there isn't any specific
evidence I know of.....the only other real option was alum tanning).
I have never read of tanneries in the US making garment leathers in the
1700's or early 1800's, if you know of any sources for this information, I'd
love to know about it for my own studies.
3) As far as hides being smoked or unsmoked on the plains. My previous
statement was that smoking was not nearly as common of a practice amongst
Native peoples as most people presume (the common line is that white hides
were just for ceremonial use). You are right that there are many references
of tipi tops being cut up into moccasins, and that you can certainly find
pieces in museums that were smoked. You're also right that smoked buckskin
washed a great deal starts to look like it may have never been smoked.
My comments on smoking is not based on 'common knowlege' as you termed it,
its based on studying ethnographies.....the earliest accounts of brain and
smoke tanning that seem to exist. I have a bibliography of well over 100
accounts of Native tanning processes that I'm planning to put up on
braintan.com tomorrow. Admittedly, very few are pre-1840, but unfortunately
there are very few detailed accounts of Plains Indian tanning pre-1840
(exceptions being John D. Hunter's and George Catlin's).
In all due respect, lets get down to the nitty gritty of what we really
know, and what is supposition!
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 16 Dec 1998 18:13:12 -0700
Thomas,
I agree with the previous comments on this piece of black leather....test it
to see if its chrome tan.
As far as black colored buckskins go, I can't say for sure that I have an
account of its presence on the Plains or in the Rockies of that era, but
black dyed brain-tan was common to Indians of many regions. The Iroquois are
most famous for this, with their black dyed bags with quill work on them.
The earliest accounts of brain tanned garments on this continent come from
DeSotos expedition and there are some great quotes about the myriad of
colors of buckskin that was worn by the Florida indians.
The most common recipe for black dyes is to mix iron shavings with a tannin
based dye (such as black walnut or oak). Indian black dyes were
traditionally made this way except instead of iron shavings they used red
ochres that have iron in them.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke???
Date: 16 Dec 1998 18:02:24 -0700
I hear ya about folks perhaps not hanging clothes in their lodges, but I'd
still argue that the reason they could get a way with not smoking all their
garments is because they were naturally exposed to smoke a lot. It doesn't
take much smoke to do it. You don't have to see them turn any color at all
to have the effects.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
2755 Sinclair Creek Rd
Eureka MT 59917
406-889-5532
Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning
and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books
and class schedules.
-----Original Message-----
>From Linda Holley...a few quick remarks......
>
>
>> From Matt Richards:
>> ......one quick note with the 'hide smoking' tradition is that many
native
>> tribes did not smoke their hides, and most only smoked hides destined to
get
>> wet & dry frequently....like moccasins and leggings.....the idea that
>> unsmoked or white hides were purely ceremonial is simply a myth, at
leastfor
>> the vast majority of Plains and western tribe
>
>I would agree with you an some parts of this. But the many leggings I have
held
>in my hot little hands were not smoked or after all these years had lost
the
>smoke color. Hard to tell unless you pulled apart areas of an article to
look
>inside or at a seam to see the old smoke. After they are cleaned and
restored
>for the museum display you have to look hard. But a lot of the leggings
never
>got wet. Unfortunately, we really, on the most part, only see in the
museums
>the good stuff. Who kept the work a day things? I have seen very few of
>these. Just the very decorated. Someone who could comment on this is
Allen
>Chronister or Bill and Kathy Brewer, or Cathy Smith or Joe.
>
>>
>
>> However, people
>> of that era lived a very smokey lifestyle, and from my own experience, it
>> takes very little to functionally smoke a hide so that bugs stay out of
it,
>
>Has that life style been in a tipi???? I try not to smoke mine up. And as
for
>hanging my leathers around the old lining of the tipi, not so. They are
kept in
>their parflech containers where the fine Western powder dirt can not get
into
>it and turn them gray looking. Mt. St. Helen dust killed the lovely white
>color of my parfleches to a dirty gray and one white dress was murder to
>clean. That stuff got into everything. Wouldn't the same thing have
happened
>back then????
>Out West dirt is hard to get out of smoked or unsmoked hides. That is why
>Native had ways of cleaning the hide. And not by washing too much.
Pumice
>stone is great for getting out some rubbed in dirt or white clay balls that
you
>rub into the leather. That just mostly hides the dirt. There is a lot of
smoke
>when cooking out side, but not in your best beaded dress or shirt. Natives
had
>their work clothes and their dress clothes. And you keep your tipi neat
>inside. Nothing like having guest drop by and a dress falls on their head
or
>the fringe from a shirt keeps getting in the way of your mouth.
>
>>
>> and it can get wet and still dry soft....and this is why I believe that
so
>> many tribes did so little smoking------the hides got smoked anyway! Just
by
>> hanging out in the lodges and around fires.
>>
>
>> Matt Richards
>> www.braintan.com
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke???
Date: 16 Dec 1998 18:05:12 -0700
The thing of recycling tipis into clothing is something one runs across in
old accounts, but it was not the only source of clothing leather. Accounts
also state that they tanned fresh hides for clothing....
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff
Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:13:39 -0800
Munroe,
Munroe Crutchley wrote:
> I'm reasonably new to the list. I shoot a muzzleloader, and I like to
> research the fur trade era, but I'm just beginning to get interested in the
> reenactment scene.
>
> It seems to me that authentic materials are very important because some
> materials just didn't exist in times past and could never be period
> correct. However, when it come to styles, that's a grayer area. For
> example: If I had a piece of braintan elk and was going to make a hunting
> bag, I might search for examples of originals to copy, or I might just make
> the bag the size, style and shape that suited me best. I might use a
> closure device that I thought would work well (provided it was made of
> material available in the time period) even if nobody else's bag fastened
> closed like mine did.
You are operating with another almost 200 years of innovation to call on and
though you could probably make your bag in a functional style with some
historical safety, your innovative closure would likely date it to the 20th
Century. So the bag wouldn't be historically correct.
> Isn't it reasonable to think that the mountain men of that era, free souls
> that they were, would have done exactly the same when they made their
> hunting bags...or anything else for that matter? I'm sure that certain
> styles of any item predominated, but with so many hand-made or improvised
> things, it seems mighty presumptuous to reject something just because we've
> never seen a picture or example of one just like it.
They may have been "free spirits" but they still were limited to how things
were usually done in their time. Not to how things might be done in another 50
or 100 or 200 years. Do you see what I am getting at? In living history
recreation, the integrity of your recreating dictates that you reject what
hasn't been documented. You are living in a much more innovative age too. Your
inventiveness and Mine too, must be set aside if we are going to play the game
the way it is supposed to be played. On the other hand there is nothing that
says you have to be authentic but then you should not expect to fit into events
where the other participants are concerned about the historical reliability of
their kit and caboodle. (is that a word?) It is a word, my spell checker just
corrected my original spelling as not being historically correct.
> Like I said, I'm just a rookie (hell, I'm not even a rookie yet!), so I
> would appreciate your comments. If I'm straying off course with this line
> of reasoning, point me back in the right direction.
Hey brother, we are all rookies or pilgrims in this thing. I hope I have gotten
my point across in such a way that you now feel you are back on the right
track. I remain....
YMOS
Tom, aka. Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:26:21 -0700
Capt. Lahti,
I like what you had to say, and I have to agree that I don't really know
what period in Kit Carson's life this jacket is from......and I'd love to
find out.
As far as wearing non-period garments to events such as Michelle's
dress......I can't say we've never done it (I think she did wear it once at
the Rocky Mtn Natls), but much of our buckskin clothing isn't intended for
Rendezvous' as we wear it all of the time, so we mostly make what-ever
pleases us.....and then have period garments particularly for re-enacting.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Casapy123@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco in Cali.
Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:25:46 EST
By "Cali." do you mean California. If so, you' might be surprised by how many
mountain men came to the Godlen State. Upwards of 24 brigades entered the
state between 1826 and the early 1840's. Thus, your tobacco may not have to
be adjusted too much as they were supplied primarily from rendezvous,
Taos/Santa Fe or the HBC posts, primarily Fort Vancouver. If North Central
California is your new state, contact me offline, we can't be too far apart.
I'll provide you with a lsit of brigades to get you started in researching the
mountian men of this region. If others on this list want to see the list of
brigades, let me know and I'll post it here as well.
Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA 95971
(530)283-4566 (H)
(530)283-3330 (W)
(530)283-5171 FAX
Casapy123@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Casapy123@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:19:33 EST
The book mentioned earlier, "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men,"
by Carl Russell, (Alfred Knopf, NY, 1967) is good. Also, try "The Steel Trap
in Norht America," by Richard Gerstell (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA,
1985). While not focusing as exclusively on the fur trade era as Russel,
Gerstell provides a very good overall history of traps. Unfortunately, it's
out of print and may be harder to access. Also, the Museum of the Fur Trade
in Chadron NB, has a marvelous collection of traps from the period.
Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA 95971
(530)283-4566 (H)
(530 283-3330 (W)
(530)283-5171 FAX
Casapy123@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Casapy123@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson's Coat
Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:24:37 EST
Kit Carson lived until 1868. Before using the coat you describe as
justification for conclusion regarding the mountain man era, be sure the coat
is from the right time period of Carson's life. The museum could probably
tell you the approximate date they have placed on the coat. This same caution
applies to any artifact purporting to belong to a mountain man.
Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA 95971
(530)283-4566 (H)
(530)283-3330 (W)
(530)283-5171 FAX
Casapy123@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:25:39 +0000
Firearms, traps & tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russell ISBN
0-8263-0465-6 hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Gail Carbiener" <carbg@cmc.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:00:05 -0800
It is available at Amazon with 24 hours shipping at $13.56 paperback issue.
Gail
=========================================
-----Original Message-----
>Firearms, traps & tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russell ISBN
>0-8263-0465-6 hardtack
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Munroe Crutchley" <rocrutch@cdsnet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff
Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:22:52 -0800
> Hey brother, we are all rookies or pilgrims in this thing. I hope I have
gotten
> my point across in such a way that you now feel you are back on the right
> track. I remain....
Thanks Capt,
Our 150 years of experience is something I hadn't thought about. I see what
you are getting at that historical accuracy has to line up with the
historical records we have to go by.
I appreciate the guidance.
Munroe Crutchley
Grants Pass, OR
rocrutch@cdsnet.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:18:57 -0800
Matt,
Thanks, Sounds like you are playing the game. I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Matt Richards wrote:
> Capt. Lahti,
>
> I like what you had to say, and I have to agree that I don't really know
> what period in Kit Carson's life this jacket is from......and I'd love to
> find out.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 16 Dec 1998 23:04:19 +0000
Dear Matt, I have an autographed copy of your book, deerskins into
buckskins, I hope it's worth a fortune someday :). I am an amateur
tanner. I've done several hides, and am finally getting to where I am
satisfied with my results. Search for American Mountain Men, and you
will find Dean Rudy's Web Site for the AMM. I've been rendezvousing
since '82. I've wasted so much money on what I thought was "right",
because I saw that 'cool dude' wearing it at Rdvs.. Since I've started
my 'Pilgrim's Journey' I've learned a few things about clothing, and I've
a lot more to learn. If you could attend an AMM event, or find AMM
members at a 'Voo, you'd probably notice a substantial difference in
clothing- compared to an average Rdvs.. You'd probably notice a wide
variety of styles, also. Most of my compadres look like greasy, trail
worn Mtn. Men. This is due to the fact that they spend most of their
free time "on the Trail" , rather than lounging around a Porky Doo, I
mean Rendezvous. (Just Kidding Guys, don't get your hackles up). For a
lot of us the goal is to have all brain tanned clothing, unfortunately
it's hard to make, and/or hard to pay for. As for me, I portray a Mtn.
Man of limited means. Hence, I dress plainly with an eye for the
Utilitarian. I believe this is a 'safe' persona. I keep my fixin's
plain and simple. I don't 'shine' like a cock o' the walk, but I believe
that I portray a more accurate, realistic Mtn. Man. Are you in Montana,
where your book is published? If so, there is an AMM party there called
The Upper Missouri Outfit (UMO). I'll bet they would be glad to share
their thoughts and research with you concerning authenticity, etc.... I
enjoy your postings, and look forward to further correspondence.
Hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 17 Dec 1998 02:35:17 -0600
>for the occasion. The morals, mental attitudes toward sex, women
>and men are very different today than then. It did affect what
>they wore, when and how. Must go....have to throw that "T-shirt" on
>for the formal dinner I am going to. Now, do I wear the one with
>the Santa or the one with the blinking lights. And did I mention
>pants. Linda Holley
Linda,I would choose the one with the blinking lights!!!!! Seriously,In most
of my research I've seen evidence of the slaves to fashion in the 18th and
early (well most of)19th centuries.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: 17 Dec 1998 02:35:22 -0600
BIG CUT...
>4) IMHO, dyed leather (not smoked) just looks out of place, no
>matter what color it is. The dyes used just don't come close, even
>the so-called Smoke color leather.
>5) Unsuitable, I won't judge. I wouldn't make clothing out of it
>(it sounds too small anyway).
BUT I have seen 18th century Huron centerseam moccasins that were dyed black
with what I later learned was VERY concentrated black walnut juice(it
started out when I tried it with about 5 gallons of walnut hull juiceboiled
down to about 1 1/2 gallon). Now there are period correct native tanned and
dyed moccasins that show that dyed leather was made by natives and used on
occasion. I will not say that it was used all the time,but to arbitrarily
claim that ANY leather that has been dyed is not period correct or usable in
a rendevous or historical reenactment is the equivilant of saying that ALL
MOUNTAIN MEN CARRIED ONLY .50 CALIBER HAWKINS.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:54:34 -0500
No "set-up". I'm a sincere person wishing for advice. You were kind
enough to lend yours. Thank you.
Your most humble and obedient servant,
mdwatts@naxs.com
HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
M. D. Watts
----------
> From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:35 PM
>
> Why do I get the impression that I am being set up on this one?
>
> <Opinion starts here> "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" by
Carl
> P. Russell. <Opinion stops here> I have the Seventh Printing, University
of
> New Mexico Press that has 60+ pages on beaver traps and trapping. That
is
> more than I would ever want to know about beaver traps.
>
> Iron Burner
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marion D. Watts <mdwatts@naxs.com>
> To: MtMan-List <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 2:33 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: References to Traps
>
>
> >In the reader's opinion, what is the single best reference to traps used
> >during the Fur Trade era?
> >
> >
> >
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:56:42 -0500
Thank you Jim. I'll see if I can Locate "The Steel Trap in North America".
I believe I saw it offered last year in some trapper supply catalog.
Your most humble and obedient servant,
mdwatts@naxs.com
HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
M. D. Watts
----------
> From: Casapy123@aol.com
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:19 AM
>
> The book mentioned earlier, "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain
Men,"
> by Carl Russell, (Alfred Knopf, NY, 1967) is good. Also, try "The Steel
Trap
> in Norht America," by Richard Gerstell (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA,
> 1985). While not focusing as exclusively on the fur trade era as Russel,
> Gerstell provides a very good overall history of traps. Unfortunately,
it's
> out of print and may be harder to access. Also, the Museum of the Fur
Trade
> in Chadron NB, has a marvelous collection of traps from the period.
>
> Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
> P.O. Box 1228
> Quincy, CA 95971
> (530)283-4566 (H)
> (530 283-3330 (W)
> (530)283-5171 FAX
> Casapy123@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:56:42 -0500
Thank you Jim. I'll see if I can Locate "The Steel Trap in North America".
I believe I saw it offered last year in some trapper supply catalog.
Your most humble and obedient servant,
mdwatts@naxs.com
HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
M. D. Watts
----------
> From: Casapy123@aol.com
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:19 AM
>
> The book mentioned earlier, "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain
Men,"
> by Carl Russell, (Alfred Knopf, NY, 1967) is good. Also, try "The Steel
Trap
> in Norht America," by Richard Gerstell (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA,
> 1985). While not focusing as exclusively on the fur trade era as Russel,
> Gerstell provides a very good overall history of traps. Unfortunately,
it's
> out of print and may be harder to access. Also, the Museum of the Fur
Trade
> in Chadron NB, has a marvelous collection of traps from the period.
>
> Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
> P.O. Box 1228
> Quincy, CA 95971
> (530)283-4566 (H)
> (530 283-3330 (W)
> (530)283-5171 FAX
> Casapy123@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:57:40 -0500
Thanks Gail & Hardtack
Your most humble and obedient servant,
mdwatts@naxs.com
HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
M. D. Watts
----------
> From: Gail Carbiener <carbg@cmc.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 1:00 AM
>
> It is available at Amazon with 24 hours shipping at $13.56 paperback
issue.
> Gail
> =========================================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <randybublitz@juno.com>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 9:44 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
>
>
> >Firearms, traps & tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russell ISBN
> >0-8263-0465-6 hardtack
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________
> >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps
Date: 17 Dec 1998 08:47:00 EST
The time for these "summer camps" would be during spring breaks, while the
beaver fur is still prime, and the beaver in season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 17 Dec 1998 08:42:18 EST
In a message dated 98-12-15 20:33:19 EST, you write:
<< these people had a lifetime of experience with
cross-country travel by horse and foot to use. >>
Most of the early horse riding in this country was based on the european or
English saddle. And as many "English" riders know that style was created for
the cavalry which set strick standard. One of the standards I had DRILLED
into my mind and my body was that in that style of riding the horse and rider
go 4 miles per hour at the walk, 8 miles an hour at the trot and 12 miles an
hour at the canter. The gallop was the one area for freedom. So many of the
early travellers may well have estimated distance by the time in the saddle.
Especially as unless you are trying to escape from something or trying to
catch something the normal travelling pace is the walk when leading pack
animals or doing sustained long distance riding. I know that there are
variations for the size of horse and type of ground being covered but that
would be one way to estimate distances.
Your Humble Servant
C.T. Oakes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage
Date: 17 Dec 1998 08:42:18 EST
In a message dated 98-12-15 20:33:19 EST, you write:
<< these people had a lifetime of experience with
cross-country travel by horse and foot to use. >>
Most of the early horse riding in this country was based on the european or
English saddle. And as many "English" riders know that style was created for
the cavalry which set strick standard. One of the standards I had DRILLED
into my mind and my body was that in that style of riding the horse and rider
go 4 miles per hour at the walk, 8 miles an hour at the trot and 12 miles an
hour at the canter. The gallop was the one area for freedom. So many of the
early travellers may well have estimated distance by the time in the saddle.
Especially as unless you are trying to escape from something or trying to
catch something the normal travelling pace is the walk when leading pack
animals or doing sustained long distance riding. I know that there are
variations for the size of horse and type of ground being covered but that
would be one way to estimate distances.
Your Humble Servant
C.T. Oakes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:55:12 EST
There is much knowledge to be found on this subject with trap collectors. You
might start trying to locate them and the answer to other "Trap" questions by
contacting the National Trappers Assn. at nta@nationaltrappers.com
http://www.nationaltrappers.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TetonTod@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:43:34 EST
Fellow group members,
May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back to
some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all about.
Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle is
best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to their
Wives and Daughters!
For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy and
respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have
dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally takes
over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back
then.
As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of
historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the
comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take the
time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making
personal comments posted to the whole group.
Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage, traps
etc...that's what we're about.
Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!!
Todd Glover
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:03:33 -0500
I'm a member of the NTA and appreciate your advice.
Your most humble and obedient servant,
mdwatts@naxs.com
HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
M. D. Watts
----------
> From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:55 AM
>
> There is much knowledge to be found on this subject with trap collectors.
You
> might start trying to locate them and the answer to other "Trap"
questions by
> contacting the National Trappers Assn. at nta@nationaltrappers.com
> http://www.nationaltrappers.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Addison Miller" <sean@naplesnet.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: HAPPY HOLIDAYS....
Date: 17 Dec 1998 11:34:42 -0500
Leaving on Monday for the COLD midwest... Omaha, Nebraska... to spend
Christmas with my inlaws.
Wanted to wish everyone out there a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS, and a wonderful
and prosperous 1999.
Also, to thank one and all for allowing all of us to be here and to share in
the vast amount of information each of us can contribute. Ain't modern
technology wonderful?
A quick joke before I leave... *grin*... bear with me...
A few years ago, three men were discussing what each thought the most
wonderful advancement was in technology.
One said... "Oh, by all means it is the telephone. I can talk to anyone,
anywhere, anytime I chose."
The scond said... "No, no... it's the televison. You can see what is
happening at any time, anywhere in the world, as it is happening!"
The third man chuckles and says... "You are both wrong... the most wonderful
thing in modern technology is the Thermos bottle."
Agast, the other two look at him and say..." The Thermos?? You have GOT to
be kidding... All it does is keep hot things hot, and cold things cold..."
The third man smiles back and says..." Yes!! But... HOW DO IT KNOW???"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:48:12 -0600 (CST)
>> Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was
>> referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit
>> Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across
>> the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different
>> from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff......
That's because it is NOT typical mountain man stuff. Carson was as much a
product of the Southwest fur trade as the Rocky Mtn rendezvous theater.
His first western experience was in a Santa Fe trade caravan in 1826. His
heart was always more oriented toward the Southwest. His style of clothing
often reflected that.
>What year was this jacket collected from? If it was from mid to late in the
>1800's then it may not be representative of what Kit and others wore in the
>field.
It's closer to mid 1800s (Kit died in 1868)
>> The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means
>> cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on
>> the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the
>> area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His
>> buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white
>> buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but
>> unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for
>> you.
>
>I think I have seen jackets like this in pictures or other museums but cool or
>not is it what was worn on the frontier in the early 1800's? I personally
>suspect not.
Indeed, it was. There were multiple "frontiers" back then, not just one.
Cut-outs as illustrated in the Carson jacket were quite common in the
American Southwestern frontier (technically called the "Spanish
Borderlands"). Kit Carson's jacket, which, I believe dates from the
1840s-50s, is stylistically typical of the period (perhaps earlier) in the
Southwest. The Spanish cultures had wonderful style and taste in personal
adornment, much more outwardly visual than their conservative Anglo
counterparts. The borderlands were not originally an Anglo frontier, but
was a frontier nevertheless, and an integral part of the western story and
transcends beyond the rendezvous era.
HBC
*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford Curator of History
mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442 Box 43191
FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191
WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
****** Living History . . . Because it's there! *******
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:10:16 EST
I believe broom straw that you are speaking of is actually not straw but
broom corn tops if i am not mistaken---the corn tops are harvisted just
as the corn is---
have seen them make brooms there myself and they do a good job---a bit
pricy when they sell them. they now buy commercial grown tops and not as
it was when silver doller city first opened---they got their straw from
"School of the ozarks" which is a school that allowd the students to
work for their tuition and that was a way to produce income for the
students.
"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684
E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:20:09 EST TrapRJoe@aol.com writes:
>Broom straw is grown. I have seen craftsmen making brooms at Silver
>Dollar
>City in Branson, MO during their craft festivile during the entire
>month of
>Oct.
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:15:34 -0500
My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm a
new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is
appreciated.
Your most humble and obedient servant,
mdwatts@naxs.com
HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
M. D. Watts
----------
> From: TetonTod@aol.com
> To: hist_text@xmission.com
> Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:43 AM
>
> Fellow group members,
>
> May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back
to
> some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all
about.
> Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle
is
> best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to
their
> Wives and Daughters!
>
> For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy
and
> respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have
> dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally
takes
> over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back
> then.
>
> As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of
> historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the
> comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take
the
> time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making
> personal comments posted to the whole group.
>
> Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage,
traps
> etc...that's what we're about.
>
> Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!!
>
> Todd Glover
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:14:37 -0600
At 05:51 PM 12/16/98 -0700, you wrote:
.....the only other real option was alum tanning).
>
>Matt Richards
>
Except for oil tanning, egg tanning, urine tanning, buttermilk tanning, sour
milk tanning, arsenic tanning and acid tanning.
Birch bark as well as oak bark was used for differing leathers and extensive
use of lime and saltpeter was called for in many old tanning receipts.
There are specific receipts for differing hides including goat, sheep, and
etc. Many techniques were recorded for specific types of leather such as
Russian and Morocco. I also have found receipts for converting parchment into
leather.
Prior to 1840 there was a significant hide and tallow trade out of
California.
In 1838 an estimated 200,000 cow hides were shipped to Boston alone. The beef
was considered a byproduct and much of it was burned as waste.
Calf skins were commonly greased with equal quantities of cod-liver oil and
tallow, called dubbing, after bark tanning.
There are many old receipts for the coloring (dyeing) of leather including
brown, blue, red, purple, green, yellow, and orange not to mention the
ubiquitous black.
I overheard a discussion years ago that declared brain tan was actually the
"dressing" of skins and not a true tanning. I don't remember the particulars
but, wonder if you've encountered this distinction in your research.
John...
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke???
Date: 17 Dec 1998 09:15:24 -0800
Reginald and Gladys Laubin have written extensive information in their
book "THE INDIAN TIPI" regarding the fabrication of buffalo hide tipis as
well as the use of the "old" leather once the tipi was recycled. As I
recall, the female buff. was primarily used due to the hide being
somewhat lighter in weight that the male hide. Mocs were made from the
upper flap areas which had received the heavier smoking.
John Funk
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:55:23 -0500
I'm not sure that this will be of help to anyone concerning brooms, but
being from the deep south and growing up in a rather "plain living" life
style, I was acquainted with several ladies that made their own brooms, as
their mothers before them had. They were fashioned from sage grass.
----------
> From: hawknest4@juno.com
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:10 PM
>
> I believe broom straw that you are speaking of is actually not straw but
> broom corn tops if i am not mistaken---the corn tops are harvisted just
> as the corn is---
>
> have seen them make brooms there myself and they do a good job---a bit
> pricy when they sell them. they now buy commercial grown tops and not as
> it was when silver doller city first opened---they got their straw from
> "School of the ozarks" which is a school that allowd the students to
> work for their tuition and that was a way to produce income for the
> students.
>
> "HAWK"
> Michael pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor Florida 34684
> E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com
>
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:20:09 EST TrapRJoe@aol.com writes:
> >Broom straw is grown. I have seen craftsmen making brooms at Silver
> >Dollar
> >City in Branson, MO during their craft festivile during the entire
> >month of
> >Oct.
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials
Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:48:12 -0600 (CST)
>> Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was
>> referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit
>> Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across
>> the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different
>> from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff......
That's because it is NOT typical mountain man stuff. Carson was as much a
product of the Southwest fur trade as the Rocky Mtn rendezvous theater.
His first western experience was in a Santa Fe trade caravan in 1826. His
heart was always more oriented toward the Southwest. His style of clothing
often reflected that.
>What year was this jacket collected from? If it was from mid to late in the
>1800's then it may not be representative of what Kit and others wore in the
>field.
It's closer to mid 1800s (Kit died in 1868)
>> The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means
>> cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on
>> the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the
>> area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His
>> buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white
>> buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but
>> unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for
>> you.
>
>I think I have seen jackets like this in pictures or other museums but cool or
>not is it what was worn on the frontier in the early 1800's? I personally
>suspect not.
Indeed, it was. There were multiple "frontiers" back then, not just one.
Cut-outs as illustrated in the Carson jacket were quite common in the
American Southwestern frontier (technically called the "Spanish
Borderlands"). Kit Carson's jacket, which, I believe dates from the
1840s-50s, is stylistically typical of the period (perhaps earlier) in the
Southwest. The Spanish cultures had wonderful style and taste in personal
adornment, much more outwardly visual than their conservative Anglo
counterparts. The borderlands were not originally an Anglo frontier, but
was a frontier nevertheless, and an integral part of the western story and
transcends beyond the rendezvous era.
HBC
*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford Curator of History
mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442 Box 43191
FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191
WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
****** Living History . . . Because it's there! *******
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HAPPY HOLIDAYS....
Date: 17 Dec 1998 14:15:26 EST
addison---
have a safe trip and may the christmas spirit follow you on your trip and
may you have a prosperous and wonderful new year---hope to see you at the
alifi---will only be coming to see friends and not to participate or be
around the green frog skin groping groop.
"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684
E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:34:42 -0500 "Addison Miller" <sean@naplesnet.com>
writes:
>Leaving on Monday for the COLD midwest... Omaha, Nebraska... to spend
>Christmas with my inlaws.
>
>Wanted to wish everyone out there a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS, and a
>wonderful
>and prosperous 1999.
>
>Also, to thank one and all for allowing all of us to be here and to
>share in
>the vast amount of information each of us can contribute. Ain't
>modern
>technology wonderful?
>
>A quick joke before I leave... *grin*... bear with me...
>
>A few years ago, three men were discussing what each thought the most
>wonderful advancement was in technology.
>
>One said... "Oh, by all means it is the telephone. I can talk to
>anyone,
>anywhere, anytime I chose."
>
>The scond said... "No, no... it's the televison. You can see what is
>happening at any time, anywhere in the world, as it is happening!"
>
>The third man chuckles and says... "You are both wrong... the most
>wonderful
>thing in modern technology is the Thermos bottle."
>
>Agast, the other two look at him and say..." The Thermos?? You have
>GOT to
>be kidding... All it does is keep hot things hot, and cold things
>cold..."
>
>The third man smiles back and says..." Yes!! But... HOW DO IT KNOW???"
>
>
>
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TetonTod@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:43:34 EST
Fellow group members,
May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back to
some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all about.
Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle is
best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to their
Wives and Daughters!
For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy and
respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have
dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally takes
over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back
then.
As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of
historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the
comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take the
time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making
personal comments posted to the whole group.
Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage, traps
etc...that's what we're about.
Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!!
Todd Glover
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Mike Katona" <mkatona@pdx.oneworld.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:28:50 -0800
unsubscribe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
Date: 17 Dec 1998 15:58:03 -0500
Etiquette??? what etiquette? I didn't know we had any. Thought this sight was
guided by freedoms of speech, who had knowledge, big brass ones, choices to
stick your foot in your mouth and who could run the fastest after throwing the
first punch.
Linda Holley
"Marion D. Watts" wrote:
> My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm a
> new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is
> appreciated.
> Your most humble and obedient servant,
> mdwatts@naxs.com
> HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
> M. D. Watts
>
> ----------
> > From: TetonTod@aol.com
> > To: hist_text@xmission.com
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
> > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:43 AM
> >
> > Fellow group members,
> >
> > May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back
> to
> > some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all
> about.
> > Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle
> is
> > best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to
> their
> > Wives and Daughters!
> >
> > For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy
> and
> > respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have
> > dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally
> takes
> > over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back
> > then.
> >
> > As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of
> > historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the
> > comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take
> the
> > time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making
> > personal comments posted to the whole group.
> >
> > Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage,
> traps
> > etc...that's what we're about.
> >
> > Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!!
> >
> > Todd Glover
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net
Subject: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing
Date: 04 Oct 1998 01:48:07 -0500
Matt
The cutouts, or"pinkings and piercings", was predominately a
southwestern addition to clothing styles. Many examples of Mexican and
Commanche leather goods have patterns cut through an outer cover with
leather or cloth to back with.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:24:14 -0500
So THAT'S why I haven't been tossed off the list yet.. Well I'll be didilly
damned!!<G>
Dennis
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----
>Etiquette??? what etiquette? I didn't know we had any. Thought this sight
was
>guided by freedoms of speech, who had knowledge, big brass ones, choices
to
>stick your foot in your mouth and who could run the fastest after throwing
the
>first punch.
>
>Linda Holley
>
>"Marion D. Watts" wrote:
>
>> My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm a
>> new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is
>> appreciated.
>> Your most humble and obedient servant,
>> mdwatts@naxs.com
>> HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
>> M. D. Watts
>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments
Date: 17 Dec 1998 14:45:22 -0700
Johns reply to my comment of not knowing of any other period tanning methods
besides bark, brain, oil and alum was:
Except for oil tanning, egg tanning, urine tanning, buttermilk tanning, sour
>milk tanning, arsenic tanning and acid tanning.
>
I guess a lot has to do with how we define our terms. The term 'brain
tanning' did not exist to my knowledge before modern times. The accepted way
(among the leather industry) of defining tanning terms is based on how the
actual chemical change is affected on the leather. If something actually
changes the collagen proteins of the skin, permanently, it is a 'tanning'
agent.
I am well aware that there was an incredibly wide variety of substances used
and substituted in various tanning recipes throughout the ancient
world....but often it is still considered the same method of tanning. From
the example above 'sour milk tanning, buttermilk tanning, and egg tanning'
are generally considered the same thing as 'brain tanning' as they affect
the leather in the same way. Soap tanning does too. Oil tanning is a
different process because the fish oils (usually cod) oxidize extremely
easily, and in this oxidation they create polymers which change the collagen
fibers of the skin. You can not wash out the effects of true 'oil tans'
There is actually reasonable speculation that this type of tanning was being
done by many native tribes in the northwest, and was clearly done by
Europeans of this era on many of the deerskins that were exported to that
continent. Oil tanning is a term that is commonly thrown around by people
any time an oil is added to the tanning mix, not really knowing what it
means.
As far as urine tanning goes, I'd love to see some evidence of this. I've
met one man so far, who claims to have actually seen someone 'urine tan' and
he has described it to me in detail....so I'm gonna try it. But for the most
part, it seems to be a term that is thrown around, with little real basis.
Urine was commonly used by NW Coast and Arctic people to strip the oils out
of skins that were otherwise just too dang oily to do anything with, but not
as a 'tanning' agent.
And while there were many, many sources of tannins for bark tanning, its
still just considered bark tanning. The hides you are referring too that
were sent from San Franciso to Boston, were destined for bark tanneries (and
soon a huge bark tanning industry developed in California based on Tan Oak).
Lime and saltpeter were both used in many traditional tanning methods, but
neither is a 'tanning' agent, and wouldn't be known as 'lime tan' or
anything like that. Lime was used in the first recorded account of Comanche
brain tanning, and is standard in chrome tanning and bark tanning.
As far as arsenic and acid (besides tannic) tans go, these are modern
methods as far as I know. Do you know of any references to these being done
during or before the period we are talking about?
You asked what I thought of the comments about brain tanning being a
dressing rather than a true tanning.....
I do not know what the accepted definition of tanning was back in the early
1800's, but in modern times, 'tanning' occurs when the protein fibers
(collagen) are permanently changed in their composition, so that the skin
can never go back to rawhide. Brains do not do this, unless they do a very,
very, weak oil tan (by oxidizing).....and I think it is more accurate to
call it a dressing (experimenting with, I have successfully completely
removed all of the effects of the braining by putting a brained and softened
hide in a running creek for three days....all of the tactilely discernable
effects of the brains were gone, it was rawhide again)....however smoke does
tan a hide.
Smoke contains a gaseous form of formaldehyde which is why it preserves
stuff (and one reason that it is carcinogenic). It causes the collagen
proteins to form new links to one another at different points on the protein
chain (this is all in leather chemistry books if anyone is real interested I
could give you some good titles). In graphic terms, it causes the fibers to
form little bridges between one another that are permanent. You can not wash
out the effects of the smoke....the color will wash out, but not the
'tanning'. It'd be more accurate if we all referred to it as 'smoke tanning'
and 'brain dressing' like some folks do....but the term 'brain tanning' is
popular and here to stay.
As a side note, 'Alum Tanning' is not generally accepted as a 'true' tanning
method, because the affects can be easily washed out. That is one reason it
is generally referred to as 'Tawing' rather than tanning.
A great book on ancient tanning methods and recipes from throughout the
world, with excellent yet understandable explanations of the chemistry and
related processes is 'Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers' by Ronald
Reed. It also talks about the conversion of parchments to leathers that you
were referring too.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing
Date: 17 Dec 1998 14:57:01 -0700
>Matt
> The cutouts, or"pinkings and piercings", was predominately a
>southwestern addition to clothing styles. Many examples of Mexican and
>Commanche leather goods have patterns cut through an outer cover with
>leather or cloth to back with.
>
You also find the cutouts or 'piercings' as you call them in northern
California Indian brain-tan, well north of Mexican influence (see old
photos at the 'Trees of Mystery' museum, highway 101 south of Crescent City)
and in some Plains Indian pieces.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Carson's Coat?
Date: 17 Dec 1998 15:09:29 -0700
Well I called the place that had the Kit Carson coat I was referring too.
The woman who owned the pieces said that the buckskin pants (made from elk)
that were there, were made shortly before his death in 1868. But the jacket
was very old and dated in the early 1800's.........however, she then had me
call her son who was also involved in the collection who said he wasn't even
sure the coat was Kit Carson's.....and that I should talk to his mother....
So nothing definitive that's for sure, if I ever make it back down there,
I'll check into it some more. If anyone else wants to check it out.....the
gallery/museum is directly across the street from the entrance to the 'Kit
Carson Home and Museum', and just a little to the right, in Taos NM. The
phone number of this place (unfortunately I didn't get the name of it) is
505-758-9188. I talked to Paul, and his mother, the owners.
One question for you all (as I am trying to learn your approach to this), if
this coat can be reasonably placed as being used by Kit prior to 1840 in the
Rocky Mtns, would its replica be considered period for what you folks do? Or
is anything of Mexican or southwestern influence considered somehow off
limits, or not a part of the same scene? Honest question...
I realize it wouldn't make it appropriate for re-enacting here in northern
Montana, but I'm curious whether you'd consider it 'mtn man'.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: zaslow <zaz@pacificnet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer.
Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:26:46 -0800 (PST)
David,
A book I would strongly recommend you find is called, "Diary of an Early
American Boy, Noah Blake 1805" by Eric Sloane, ISBN 0-345-32100-6. I think
it may be out of print, but try ordering from Barnes & Noble. That's where
I got mine. It is a diary of a 15 year old boy who lined on a frontier farm
in 1805. Excellent reading. Hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: misc topics
Date: 17 Dec 1998 15:14:24 +0100
Maybe I should explain that I do all this chatter
at work 1 when I shouldbe doing something
productive. Therefore, I do nothave at hand a lot
of books to pullout to cite specific page
references for everything I say. However, I
usually try to be very careful to differentiate
between something that is just my conclusion from
something that other documentation. If I don't
"footnote" things I say, that is the reason.
That being said, there was a request for some
background on tanning. Suggest you look at Welsh,
Peter. "Tanning in the United States to 1850"
Smithsonian Institution Press (1964). That is a
source for the large number of tanneries in US
(govt estimate of 8229 in 1840, p. 13); and for a
reference to leather breeches. Trench Coxe
(otherwise known as the Perveyor of Public
Suplies) wrote in 1812 of the importance of
leather and the "necessaries or plain
conveniences" made from it. In that list he
included "leathern breeches." (p. 3) The
importance of leather breeches to the working man
in late 18th and early 19th centuries is discussed
in Gehret, Ellen, "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing."
Liberty Cap Books, York, PA (1976), pp. 126-27.
I do not know where, exactly, the leather to make
garments (principally gloves and breeches) came
from in this country in the early 19th centuries.
Being a leather garment maker was a trade subject
to long apprentichship in this country (See
Gehret) With over 8000 tanneries around, it looks
like someone would have figured out how to turn
out garment leather. But, it is certainly
possible that most garment leather was imported.
During the 1820s and 30s and even later the AFC
shipped enormous quantities of "Shaved deer skins"
out of St Louis bound for either New Orleans or
New York. See, e.g., American Fur Company, Ledger
S, "Packing Book, AFC Western, 1830-33." These
could have gone to American or European tanneries,
I don't know. At the same time, the AFC dealt in
comparatively minute numbers of "dressed" (ie
probably brain tanned) hides. The numbers are
just very small. There are occasional field
journal references to men buying dressed hides
from the Indians. Osborne Russell's bunch, for
example, bought a quantity of excellent smoked
hides from a group of "Sheepeater" Shoshoni that
hemet in what is not Yellowstone Park. (Sorry,
don't have page #). I assume that most of these
types of hides went into moccasins because they
never talk about sitting around making their own
clothes. Compare, for example, the L & C journals
when they did dress their own hides and make their
own clothes. Whenever they stopped to do it (eg
at Ft Clatsop), it was a major party of the
journal entries. The same thing is just missing
from "mtn man" journals.
As far as Kit Carson goes, we have a number of
detailed transactions by Carson when he was a
customer at Ft Hall in the 1830s. What was he
buying? beads, cloth, needles, cotton binding,
coffee, sugar, tobacco, flour, etc. He also
bought clothes: flannel shirts, silk
handkerchiefs, shoes and "sattinet pants." (Ft
Hall Day Book, entries for Feb 3, 1835; June 26,
1836, for example).
One should be very careful about attributing such
things at Carson's coat or the ever-popular Tom
Tobin coat or the Marino Modena gun and pouch and
the Bridger Hawken to the 1820-30 period. As
someone else pointed out, these surviving items
are usually the last ones these men owned in their
lives in the 1850-70 period, not things that they
used as beaver trappers in 1830. This kind of
free association led in years past to lots of
Calif Gold Rush period Hawkens being attributed to
the 1830s. See also Russell's "Firearms, Traps
and Tools of the Mtn Man" in which he illustrates
a lot of 1860 period guns as typical mtn man
material.
Some people seems to like to dismiss any
discussion of historical clothing that does not
suit their ideas as attacks by the "fashion
police." Funny you don't hear that in discussions
about guns or traps. Would someone that said a
coil spring wire trap was probably not typical of
an 1830 beaver trap be accused of being "trap
police"?
Anyhow, some of the idea that the "Mtn man"
dressed his own way comes probably from
assumptions that he mand his own clothing and
therefore did his own thing. Problem is, except
for moccasins which they did routinely make
themselves, there is very little evidence that the
man in the field typically made any substantial
part ofhis own clothing. The evidence is that it
was mostly purchased. When you purchase, you get
what someone else is making and therefore more or
less the fashion of the time. That is why tight
legged pantaloons are mentioned so often in 1830s
transactions,
that was the fashion of the times.
Also, there was "fashion police" in the old West.
George Simpson in 1824 upbraided one of the HBC
brigade leaders for being dressed in tattered,
patched, country clothes (Simpson, FurTrade and
Empire"). In 1850, Rudolph Kurz observed from Ft
Union that White men "dressing Indian" inspire "no
special respect among the tribes; on the
contrary, he rather lowers himself in their
estimation." Kurz also said a White man dressing
Indian was much more likely to be killed as an
enemy. Hewett, ed. Journal of RF Kurz, Univ Neb.
Press 1970 p. 134. Edwin Denig, who much
influenced Kurz' views, said the same thing of
Meldrum, the trader to the Crows: "Unless a white
man were rich he became a sport of the savages
when he went about naked and work long hair
reaching to his shoulders, as was the practice
with some white men at Fort alexander on the
Yellowstone." In Ft. Sarpy Journal,Contributions
to the Historical Society of Montana, Vol. X
(1940), note 153. See also Hanson, The Traders
Dress, Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, Vo. 25
No. 1, 1990.
Whew!
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:38:41 -0400
Marion D. Watts wrote:
>I'm not sure that this will be of help to anyone concerning brooms, but
>being from the deep south and growing up in a rather "plain living" life
>style, I was acquainted with several ladies that made their own brooms, as
>their mothers before them had. They were fashioned from sage grass.
That "sage grass" you mention is actually sedge, and the common orange-tan
type you see growing all over the southeast is called 'broom sedge'. I
presume that's because it was commonly used to make homemade brooms, as you
describe.
Bob
Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net>
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html
non illegitimi carborundum est
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: unsubscribe
Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:20:48 -0700
unsubscribe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing
Date: 17 Dec 1998 18:04:45 EST
one of the sketch books (sorry for no citation, but they are in storage right
now) shows a fringed southwestern style jacket with diamond shaped, red
blanket wool cut-outs going up the lapels and around the collar, as well as
around the cuffs. the top layer of the cuff and collar are also pinked. this
jacket also has an exterior top pocket. It (the jacket) is part of the
collection housed at the Museum of Anthropology in Albequerque. It is dated
circa 1823.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc topics
Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:36:04 -0700
Allen
Thanks for the long reply. I'm at work too when doing this, but my
taskmaster is myself, and its nice to give one's self a break from scraping
hides, to learn and share a bit on the machine.
Here are some thoughts on your recent responses in our ongoing discussion of
period leather.
1. You're right in that I have always assumed that at least some of the mtn
men made their own clothes and accoutrements.....and that this lead me to
assume that they would improvise a bit to suit their own needs. Do others on
this list agree with this assertion that nearly all of their clothing (aside
from mocs) was purchased?
2. I very clearly did not hear any real evidence or sources for leather
garments of the period being made out of bark tan.....only inferences from
the fact that there were a lot of tanneries and garment makers. I would
still love to know of some...not to challenge what you are saying (though I
do doubt it somewhat) but for my own knowledge.
3. Have read several times the resource you mention. Not a primary source by
any means, but some interesting stuff. (Welsh, Peter. "Tanning in the
United States to 1850").
4. The quotes regarding 'leather' breeches are highly open to
interpretation. While there was often some clear distinctions between
'buckskin' being what we call brain or smoke tan, and 'leather' meaning
bark-tan, this distinction doesn't seem to be any where near universal, or
even necessarily predominant.
5. As far as exporting brain tan or 'dressed' leather, my research agrees
with you. A lot of 'indian dressed' deerskins were shipped to England in the
mid 1700's (hundreds of thousands), there are very good records of this,
particularly from the southeast. As time went on, more and more of this
trade involved sending raw deerskins rather than dressed ones, that were
then presumably (can't back this up) oil-tanned in England. But definitely
tanned in England ... buckskin was a major fashion rave of the time in
Europe.
There are accounts of these buckskin breeches being typically
yellow....which has always made me think these were the ones they got from
the Indians....but they certainly could have been dyed yellow. There was
also (just a weird side note) a German brain tanning tradition still
practiced in Europe in the 1850's.
6. I think your comment comparing period guns and clothing is relevant in
some ways, but not completely. With the guns you are comparing pieces of
technology, and a knowledge of the technology. With clothing, at least the
context I've been writing and reading about on this list, the question is
more along the lines of the assumption that one could personalize one's own
clothing within the existing technology and knowledge of the day. I don't
know practically anything about muzzleloading guns, but I'll try to make an
analogy: Its more like some-one deciding to shorten the stock so that it fit
their body better, or devised a different way of attaching the strap than
was the 'norm' for such and such a reason.
I kind of compare it to food. When you cook food at a re-enactment, do you
only use recipes that you can document? Or do you think that it is somewhat
reasonable to take some of the fixings that were available and used at the
time and place, and cook them up without a documentable recipe? (with the
obvious exception of it not being appropriate to take period fixings and
deliberately make some favorite dish of a later time.....that not
acceptable).
As far as 'fashion police' go, I'm sure they existed. They've existed in
every time and place, including our own. But like the guys on the
yellowstone who grew their hair long and wore indian clothes, ...there have
always been people who didn't follow the rules of the fashion police. And
there is a huge leap from altering period style so that they fit the mtn man
of the time's needs, to wholesale adopting a different style. My argument is
that people would have altered stuff when it made practical utilitarian
sense (and occasionally just because).
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "WILLIAM P. GARRISON" <grizstp@micron.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Unsubscribe
Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:36:04 -0700
------ =_NextPart_000_01BE29DB.5DB3E580
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
------ =_NextPart_000_01BE29DB.5DB3E580
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64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------ =_NextPart_000_01BE29DB.5DB3E580--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing
Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:41:44 -0700
The two fellows who responded earlier about cutouts (aka piercings), HBC and
someone else, could you point me in the direction of a couple resources that
have good pictures of some of these southwestern and comanche buckskins. My
wife really likes them and is interested in specific shapes and if there
were any reinforcements or the like to keep the holes from stretching out
oddly.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson's Coat?
Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:58:15 -0600
I will be in Taos for part of these holidays and will try to check it
out.
Iron Burner
Matt Richards wrote:
>
> Well I called the place that had the Kit Carson coat I was referring too.
> If anyone else wants to check it out.....the
> gallery/museum is directly across the street from the entrance to the 'Kit
> Carson Home and Museum', and just a little to the right, in Taos NM. The
> phone number of this place (unfortunately I didn't get the name of it) is
> 505-758-9188. I talked to Paul, and his mother, the owners.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments
Date: 17 Dec 1998 19:02:49 -0400
John, I have run across many references concerning leather, whether offered
for sale, taxed, whatever, in my browsing through the on-line archive of
the Pennyslvania Gazette from 1728 to 1800. I've included some exerpts whic
seem to bear on some of the points of the current discussion concerning
dressed vs tanned, oil treated leather, etc. They are early, much earlier
than the mountain man era, but shows that the terms and procedures existed
long before that time. I hope you find them interesting.
July 10, 1766 The Pennsylvania Gazette
"The 5th inst. July, was broke open, the skin shop of Frederick Shinkel,
and the following things stolen out of it, viz. 22 large pattern deer
skins, Indian dressed, marked about the neck F, 6 ditto smaller, marked W,
and 33 ditto oil
dressed. Whoever secures the abovesaid skins, so that they may be had
again,..."
November 23, 1752 The Pennsylvania Gazette
"...white oak hogshead beading, oil flints, Indian dressed deer skins,
English ditto, cocoa, chocolate, bohea tea, coffee, and bottles. ..."
December 9, 1772 The Pennsylvania Gazette
"...the shotbag is made of old sheepskin, English dressed;"
>Calf skins were commonly greased with equal quantities of cod-liver oil and
>tallow, called dubbing, after bark tanning.
September 10, 1777 The Pennsylvania Gazette
"N.B. Ready money is given, by said Mentz, for any quantity of tanned and
allom dressed sheepkins."
>I overheard a discussion years ago that declared brain tan was actually the
>"dressing" of skins and not a true tanning. I don't remember the particulars
>but, wonder if you've encountered this distinction in your research.
August 24, 1785 The Pennsylvania Gazette
(detailing the amount of import tax)
"...womens leather and stuff shoes, 1 s per pair; all dressed or tanned
leather, 3d per pound; cheese, 3d per pound;..."
April 23, 1777 The Pennsylvania Gazette
"That the said Committee of fifty be authorised to take possession of all
tanned and dressed leather, bar iron, &c...."
November 7, 1781 The Pennsylvania Gazette
PHILADELPHIA, November 7.
Extract of a letter from General WASHINGTON, dated Head Quarters, near
York, October 27, 1781. (This is from a list of soldiers and an inventory
of gear (returns) surrendered at Yorktown)
"60 dressed calf skins, 22 hides tanned leather."
I'm sure you noticed that they tended to use the terms "tanned" and
"dressed" as though they meant different things. Throughout my browsing, I
never saw the term "Indian tanned", it was always "Indian dressed". They
did always distinguish between "Indian dressed" and English dressed",
though. You noticed also, of course, the "oil dressed" deerskins and "allom
dressed" sheepskins.
Bob
Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net>
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html
non illegitimi carborundum est
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: more babbling
Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:06:49 +0100
1. I am not arguing that the working man's
breeches in America were never made from brain tan
leather. I just don't know what material they
were made from. In some upper-crust settings
where they were used for riding breeches, they
were described as "doe skin." That doesn'thelp
much. I do suggest a theory that the same types
of tailors who were making leather knee breeches
in the 18th and early 19th centuries certainly
might have been the same types who manufactured
leather pantaloons and hunting shirts for sale in
St Louis and other places in the 1820-30 period.
They were likely commercially cut and constructed.
This theory is reinforced by the fact that many
of the trading posts in the West had tailors on
premise. When detailed records are available
(such as Ft Hall), they made both cloth and
leather garments for sale. In St Louis these
garments might have been made from whatever
leather the breeches had been made from; in the
West they certainly could have been made from
"local" leather.
2. I am not arguing that garments were made from
bark tan leather. I don't know whether they were
or not. I don't know the range of leather that is
possible with the bark tan method. Does it all
come out like harness leather no matter what you
start with, or what? What is a bark tanned deer
or sheep hide like?
3. On the SWestern cut-out hide backed with cloth
stuff, at least as far as Indian material goes, I
think you'll find a lot more of it coming from the
Western Apaches than from the Comanches. The
Apaches commonly decorated by doing geometric
cut-outs in soft hide or thin rawhide backed
usually with red wool cloth (at least in the
historic period). Two items that this is commonly
seen on are double saddle bags and arrow quivers.
I don't think Comanche people did much of this
work. I can supply some cites if needed. While I
usually take Thomas Mails with a grain of salt,
his book on the Apache has numerous pictures of
the Apache material.
Mexican/Spanish involvement in this is something I
don't really know about as far as age,
applications, materials.
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing
Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:04:11 -0700
The coat your talking about was Tom Toblin's, but the date the museum put on
it is wrong, because according to his grandson, now in his mid 90's. Toblin
was wearing this coat when he killed the Espensoia brothers and that was
15-20 years later than the date shown. Plus revolvers were carried by
several army officers at the time, they refused to help in the fight and
Toblin shot several with his Hawken and wounded one.
Charles Hanson put the sketch in the Mountain Man Sketch Book, with a remark
that the coat's location was unknown. Ray Turner, Dick Whitmer and myself
(AMM brothers)were in Durango several years after the sketch book came out,
in a small museum at the west end of town. I saw the coat hanging on the
back wall behind the counter, called my friends over and told them, "there's
Toblin's coat". An old man showing some people an apple peeler, that he was
cranking, came over and wanted to know how I knew that the coat was
Toblin's.
I explained seeing it in a book and the stories I had read about Toblin, he
became very interested and ask if we would like to see the rifle and a
letter written about Toblin's deed. Turn's out he's Tom Toblin's grandson
then in his late 60's, the letter was written for Kit Carson by an officer
as Kit could not write, but had placed his mark on the letter. The rifle was
a gift from the army for his deed and the reward money was never collected
from the government.
Oh, Toblin and Carson were related, cousins or second cousins ?
But the coat looked real close to the drawing that Charlie had done, called
and told him about the coat, was in the winter, the next spring he called
and wanted to see it, so we met and drove down together to Durango from
Loveland, Colorado. He took lots of pictures of it and tried to talk the
grandson into letting the musuem have it, never got anywhere with a deal.
So Kit Carson having one with cut out coat's like his relation is not a
suprise.
Buck
_____________________________
-----Original Message-----
>one of the sketch books (sorry for no citation, but they are in storage
right
>now) shows a fringed southwestern style jacket with diamond shaped, red
>blanket wool cut-outs going up the lapels and around the collar, as well as
>around the cuffs. the top layer of the cuff and collar are also pinked.
this
>jacket also has an exterior top pocket. It (the jacket) is part of the
>collection housed at the Museum of Anthropology in Albequerque. It is dated
>circa 1823.
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing
Date: 17 Dec 1998 18:49:31 EST
Matt, I'll try and dig out the sketchbook that has the jacket i referred to
and will give you the info. i had a jacket made using the drawings as
referrence; the illustration from the museum cites the date 1823. The lapel,
collar and cuff, in the area of the cut-outs are actually three layers of
material. The bottom is the base skin of the jacket, then a layer of thin red
blanket wool, then the top layer of skin has the cut-outs. The layers were
hide-glued and stitched, and this arrangement seems to prevent 'stretching' of
the openings where the wool shows through. Hope this helps, Ralph. (Barney
P. Fife)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:22:31 -0700
That's "Etiquette" Dennis, not "you ett somethim."
Buck
___________________
-----Original Message-----
>So THAT'S why I haven't been tossed off the list yet.. Well I'll be didilly
>damned!!<G>
>
>Dennis
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 4:35 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
>
>
>>Etiquette??? what etiquette? I didn't know we had any. Thought this
sight
>was
>>guided by freedoms of speech, who had knowledge, big brass ones, choices
>to
>>stick your foot in your mouth and who could run the fastest after throwing
>the
>>first punch.
>>
>>Linda Holley
>>
>>"Marion D. Watts" wrote:
>>
>>> My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm a
>>> new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is
>>> appreciated.
>>> Your most humble and obedient servant,
>>> mdwatts@naxs.com
>>> HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
>>> M. D. Watts
>>>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc topics
Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:48:35 -0700
-----Original Message-----
Hello Camp,
As Allen has pointed out leather breeches were popular, I have a pair of
late leather breeches, drop front, comm.made and believed by Mrs.Z.Gates
(author of "Marino Medina Mountainman"), to have belonged to Medina and worn
by his step-son Louie at the turn of this century in town events in Loveland
Colorado.
>reference to leather breeches. Trench Coxe (otherwise known as the
Perveyor of >Public Suplies) wrote in 1812 of the importance of leather and
the "necessaries or >plain conveniences" made from it. In that list he
included "leathern breeches." (p. 3)
Again these breeches were late in his life as were his other items mentioned
by Allen, just because they belonged to a mountainman doesn't make then
"period" to the fur trade, with Medina he came late or at the end of the
period.
>One should be very careful about attributing such things at Carson's coat
or the ever->popular Tom Tobin coat or the Marino Modena gun and pouch and
the Bridger >Hawken to the 1820-30 period
I have seen and handled Toblin's coat, but can't remember the leather
(commerical or home tanned), the breeches are of a commerical type tanning,
light gray to a off white in color, machine sewed on 2/3 's and some hand
stiching on waist band. This was another item that Hanson wanted for the
museum and time just flys, never got to do anything with them. Bill
Cunningham will run an article in the next issue of T&LR about these
breeches I believe. Interesting but would they have been used, Wes Housler
and I have talked about this, as well as Wes and Jeff mention the use of
breeches in their book, "Dress & Equipage of the Mountain Man".
As others have stated isn't this better than having everyone complaining,
research and ideas.
Buck
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc topics
Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:07:05 -0800
Matt,
Matt Richards wrote:
> 1. You're right in that I have always assumed that at least some of the mtn
> men made their own clothes and accoutrements.....and that this lead me to
> assume that they would improvise a bit to suit their own needs. Do others on
> this list agree with this assertion that nearly all of their clothing (aside
> from mocs) was purchased?
Thanks for the opportunity to vote on something. I agree in principle with
Allen's assertion that most if not all their clothing was purchased and I would
add, or made for them by indian or white seamstress' on the scene. There were a
lot more divers peoples (other than our heroes) on the scene than most realize.
many of the engage's or hired help had families with them and many of these
people came from the original fur trade activities in the Old North West.
French, Half breeds, eastern indians, etc. Considering the evidence put forth on
the amount of dry goods and sewing supplies sent west, one can extrapolate a
thriving "cottage' industry going on for anyone able to sew garments in the
"white" fashion.
2. I very clearly did not hear any real evidence or sources for leather garments
of the period being made out of bark tan.....only inferences from the fact that
there were a lot of tanneries and garment makers. I would still love to know of
some...not to challenge what you are saying (though I do doubt it somewhat) but
for my own knowledge.
Can't add anything on this other than the volume of such organized business and
home oriented tanning activity that was going on.
> 3. Have read several times the resource you mention. Not a primary source by
> any means, but some interesting stuff. (Welsh, Peter. "Tanning in the
> United States to 1850").
>
> 4. The quotes regarding 'leather' breeches are highly open to
> interpretation. While there was often some clear distinctions between
> 'buckskin' being what we call brain or smoke tan, and 'leather' meaning
> bark-tan, this distinction doesn't seem to be any where near universal, or
> even necessarily predominant.
If that is the case then we will just have to live with the knowledge that
Breeches made of leather are proper and can be made of indian dressed hides or
other period correct leathers until a primary source comes along that says one
or the other was the way it was done.
> 6. I think your comment comparing period guns and clothing is relevant in
> some ways, but not completely. With the guns you are comparing pieces of
> technology, and a knowledge of the technology. With clothing, at least the
> context I've been writing and reading about on this list, the question is
> more along the lines of the assumption that one could personalize one's own
> clothing within the existing technology and knowledge of the day. I don't
> know practically anything about muzzleloading guns, but I'll try to make an
> analogy: Its more like some-one deciding to shorten the stock so that it fit
> their body better, or devised a different way of attaching the strap than
> was the 'norm' for such and such a reason.
If we compare the guns of the time and how they were thought of and use that as
an analogy of how these people may have dealt with the subject of personal
clothing then we would see very little "personalizing" of clothing. I don't
recall seeing any period guns that were markedly altered other than some
decorative things like brass tacks (which is probably by indians) and trying to
add a rear sight to a smooth gun which was done quit a bit. There were many
field repairs with wire and raw hide and damaged muzzles were cut down to allow
continued use of the gun. there are some rare examples of trade guns being cut
down at both ends to facilitate use on horse back or for concealment but this
was not wide spread either. So how does that allow us to go Willie Nillie in
creating new and individual ways of dressing for the present day historical
reenactment? The bottom line is that if you can't place it in the time and
locality of the event you are reenacting it really isn't the proper thing to do.
That people do it don't make it right!
> I kind of compare it to food. When you cook food at a re-enactment, do you
> only use recipes that you can document? Or do you think that it is somewhat
> reasonable to take some of the fixings that were available and used at the
> time and place, and cook them up without a documentable recipe? (with the
> obvious exception of it not being appropriate to take period fixings and
> deliberately make some favorite dish of a later time.....that not
> acceptable).
There are many that try very hard to eat as the historical record says they ate.
There are also many modern reasons why this is not always done. I and I'm sure
many others try very hard, within the bounds of what is known, to walk the
straight and narrow but when I can't, I try to be honest about it and say this
is probably not right but for now it is the best I can do. I also try hard not
to do things that are easily visible and are not period correct because many new
folks will look at me walking down the trail in my "Pendlton Wool Chief Joseph
Blanket Capote" and think, "gee that's a beautiful coat and Old Uncle Rog, who's
been in this for 30 years, always does things right so that must be ok".
> As far as 'fashion police' go, I'm sure they existed. They've existed in
> every time and place, including our own. But like the guys on the
> yellowstone who grew their hair long and wore indian clothes, ...there have
> always been people who didn't follow the rules of the fashion police. And
> there is a huge leap from altering period style so that they fit the mtn man
> of the time's needs, to wholesale adopting a different style. My argument is
> that people would have altered stuff when it made practical utilitarian
> sense (and occasionally just because).
I just loved Allens observations on "fashion police" and the fact that you don't
hear about the "accouterment police" or the "gun police" or the "camp gear
police" just says that people think they should be able to wear what ever they
have spent their money on without critique. And my argument is that they didn't
alter stuff when it made practical utilitarian sense in our modern context. Are
your attitudes the same as your grandfathers or will they be shared by your
great grand children? Hardly. Well the attitudes of people in the 18th and 19th
Century were a lot different than those we harbor and live our modern lives by
now. If we want to pretend to be living in those bygone eras' we are obligated
to try to think like they did. What innovative ways would you portray some
persona from the 13th or 14th Century if you were a member of the Honorable
"Society for Creative Anachronism" 'It sure is impractical to were these cloths
so I think I will be innovative and change the style and fabric to a more
practical cut, etc. that I am aware of from the hundreds of years of history
that followed those early Centuries'. Silly isn't it?
This ain't the sixties and I ain't no free spirit "flower child" no more. I'm
trying to recreate the American life style of the 18th and 19th Century and
their "free spirit" is just romanticism on our part. I remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments
Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:07:50 -0700
"Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com> wrote:
>>My understanding from primary source research is that hundreds of thousands
of hides were sent to England.....many of them already brain and smoke
tanned by Natives (such as the Creeks). As the 1700's went on, an increasing
amount of these exported deerskins were sent untanned. They were then tanned
in Europe, using an oil tanning process, and many of these were then shipped
back to the US for use in garments. <<
Matt, thanks for this. At first, I was going to write & tell you that, from
HBC & North West Company journals for the 1774-1821 period, the only hides
that I recall being traded were for the use of the fur traders at their
posts. But then I had a quick flip through the journal of NWC wintering
partner Alexander Henry the Younger, and found the following information on
what the NWC traded in 1805. It was an eye-opener.
"Returns of Outfit of 1805, Receipted at Kamanistiquia [Fort William], 1806:
[out of 141,581 skins & furs received, there were:]
4,065 Deer Skins...
3,497 Dressed [brain-tanned] Orignal [moose] Skins...
173 Dressed Cariboux Skins...
906 Deer Skins, damaged, and Biche [elk] Skins, staged[?]...
38 Does [elk] and Cariboux, dressed...
218 Orignals, dressed" (Henry the Younger, Coues ed., vol 1, pp. 283-284).
(I've omitted the large numbers of beaver, marten, buffalo robes, etc. on
this long list. There is also a smaller number of untanned 'parchment'
skins.) This works out to 8,897 skins, which is only 6% of the total number
of furs traded, but it's still a heck of a lot of brain-tanned skins going
east from NWC headquarters on Lake Superior.
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
agottfre@telusplanet.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HAPPY HOLIDAYS....
Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:19:15 -0500
Addison Miller wrote:
>
> Leaving on Monday for the COLD midwest... Omaha, Nebraska... to spend
> Christmas with my inlaws.
>
> Wanted to wish everyone out there a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS, and a wonderful
> and prosperous 1999.
Thanks! The same from us to you and yours!
Best,
Fred
__
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Casapy123@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More on early tanneries
Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:04:26 EST
The following citations all come from "The Fur Trade," Vol. II, written by
Paul C. Phillips, University of Oklahoma Press, 1961. While not as detailed
as one might like, these references establish that there was a lot of
"manufacturing" of leather products in America in its early years. I'll keep
looking.
p. 120 - "During the early years of the republice, the fabrication of pelts
was an important industry. Imports from Europe were scarce, and hats, shoes,
and clothing were produced almost entirely within the United States. Textile
manufactures had not yet developed, and the chief raw material was the pelts
of animals. Tanneries used deerskins for the manufacture of leather, and
these skins came from the South as well as from the country along the northern
Alleghenies."
p. 120 - The furriers and tanners of the day operated individually, on a small
scale. But there were many of them - enough to supply the needs of the
country - and the aggregate of their business was large. Their names have
mostly been forgotten, although the biographer of Astor has resurrected a
number of them who were associated with the great fur merchant in the early
years of his career. These include Robert Browne, the Quaker merchant, Hayman
Levy, a Mr. Wilson, and Cornelius Heyer and Cornelius Heeney, who may have
been the same person."
p. 152 - "Philadelphia was second in importance to New York, in both trading
and manufacture of pelts. It was the center of a long established tanning
industry, and used many deerskins."
p. - 161 - "Self-sufficiency had been forced on the country by a long period
of commercial restriction [due to the War of 1812]. As a result, manufactures
had developed, and among the important were manufactures from furs and skins.
Leather-tanning had expanded to a value of more than $12,000,000 a year and
used all the deerskins available."
Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA 95971
(530)283-4566 (H)
(530)283-3330 (W)
(530)283-5171 FAX
Casapy123@aol.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:30:58 EST
You can buy seed for broom straw. That's how it's sold.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
Date: 17 Dec 1998 21:41:46 -0500
OOOOOOoohhhhhh.... sorry..
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----
>That's "Etiquette" Dennis, not "you ett somethim."
>
>Buck
>___________________
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 2:45 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
>
>
>>So THAT'S why I haven't been tossed off the list yet.. Well I'll be
didilly
>>damned!!<G>
>>
>>Dennis
>>
>> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>>Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 4:35 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
>>
>>
>>>Etiquette??? what etiquette? I didn't know we had any. Thought this
>sight
>>was
>>>guided by freedoms of speech, who had knowledge, big brass ones,
choices
>>to
>>>stick your foot in your mouth and who could run the fastest after
throwing
>>the
>>>first punch.
>>>
>>>Linda Holley
>>>
>>>"Marion D. Watts" wrote:
>>>
>>>> My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm
a
>>>> new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is
>>>> appreciated.
>>>> Your most humble and obedient servant,
>>>> mdwatts@naxs.com
>>>> HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
>>>> M. D. Watts
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Pennsylvania Gazette's
Date: 17 Dec 1998 19:45:11 -0700
Bob,
Could you give us the URL for the Pennsylvania Gazette, for one I would be
interested in looking at this information as I have (3) original
Pennsylvania Gazette's that fall in the time frame you have stated. Would be
fun to compare what someone has put on the internet compared to the
originals.
Thanks
Buck
___________________
-----Original Message-----
>John, I have run across many references concerning leather, whether offered
>for sale, taxed, whatever, in my browsing through the on-line archive of
>the Pennyslvania Gazette from 1728 to 1800. I've included some exerpts ....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Austin, Tim" <AustinT@doimex2.sill.army.mil>
Subject: MtMan-List: Broom Straw
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:56:24 -0600
Have never seen any, but all the people around where I live, scenic, sunny,
Southwestern Oklahoma, talk about growing it for commercial purposes. Many
that are my age said it was their job when they were in high school to go
out and cut it. From what they say, it is grown specifically for broom
straw, it is not a by product of something else. I will check and post it
tomorrow.
Tim Austin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Bodmer material
Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:03:48 -0700
Ladies & Gentlemen,
For your information there is a good article on "Karl Bodmer's Journey" in
the Feb. 1999 issue of "Early American Homes" on page 52 to page 59. Shows
some pictures that we normally do not see from the east, like "Mauch Chunk"
Pennsylvania 1832, the Industrial Revolution in America, "Niagara Falls"
1833 or "Fox River" shown at the confluence with the Wabash in1833. An
interesting landscape of Bethlehem Pennsylvania, when Bodmer made his visit,
there were 1,000 people located in the area.
The article tells about his eastern experience, but best of all lets us know
that the Joslyn Museum in Omaha has his books and prints available and can
be ordered over the phone with a credit card. (402) 342-3300 phone / open
from 10 am to 4 pm Mon. - Fri.
"Karl Bodmer's America" (2nd printing) list for $110 on sale for $100
"Karl Bodmer's Eastern Views" is $29.95
They charge $10.00 postage for 2nd day del. and that's how long it took for
mine to arrive. When ordering ask for "Karl Bodmer Mail Order Opportunties",
this is a listing of available prints for sale starting at $5 and going to
$30, plus a color flyer with small pictures of the prints. Tell the wife it
would make a good Christmas present and she still has time to get it.
Later
Buck
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pennsylvania Gazette's
Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:08:22 -0400
>Could you give us the URL for the Pennsylvania Gazette,
Sure, Buck, glad to. This database has become my very favorite site on the
internet. The URL is:
http://204.170.102.11/cgi-bin/accessible/verify.pl
In case anyone else is interested, here is the description of the database
from the blurb at the site:
THE PENNSYLVANIA GAZETTE, 1728-1800
(100,000 records; more than 40 MILLION words)
Published in Philadelphia from 1728 through 1800, The Pennsylvania Gazette
is considered The New York Times of the
18th century. It provides the reader with a first hand view of colonial
America, the American Revolution and the New
Republic, and offers important social, political and cultural perspectives
of each of the periods. Thousands of articles,
editorials, letters, news items and advertisements cover the Western
Hemisphere, from the Canadian Maritime Provinces,
through the West Indies and North and South America, giving a detailed
glimpse of issues and lifestyles of the times. Also
included is the full-text of such important writings such as: the
Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, Letters from
a Farmer, Thomas Payne's Common Sense, The Federalist Papers, etc.
These include:
Folio I - (1728 - 1750) "Benjamin Franklin's Newspaper"
Folio II - (1751 - 1765) "The French & Indian War"
Folio III - (1766 - 1783) "The American Revolution"
Folio IV - (1784 - 1800) "The New Republic"
*********************
Bob
Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net>
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html
non illegitimi carborundum est
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pennsylvania Gazette's
Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:09:55 -0700
Bob,
I see what you mean, this is a good site, thank you.
Buck
___________________
-----Original Message-----
>>Could you give us the URL for the Pennsylvania Gazette,
>
>Sure, Buck, glad to. This database has become my very favorite site on the
>internet. The URL is:
>
>http://204.170.102.11/cgi-bin/accessible/verify.pl
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments
Date: 17 Dec 1998 18:27:18 -0600
Washtahay-
At 02:45 PM 12/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>As far as arsenic and acid (besides tannic) tans go, these are modern
>methods as far as I know. Do you know of any references to these being done
>during or before the period we are talking about?
I've made no particular study of it, but I recall mention of some tanners
using various acids in England. Unfortunately, I can't recall a time
period, so I don't even know which century's references I should start
checking.
Also, FWIW, many county histories published back east make references to
what seems to be a LOT of tanneries. Census records will also show many,
as will searches of deeds and wills.
LongWalker c. du B.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments
Date: 17 Dec 1998 19:39:03 -0800
At the risk of getting a little "kinky", I've read on a couple of
occasion that the trade of the "Tinker" involved he collection of urine
(especially female due to it's supposed higher urea content) for the
production of gunpowder in early colonial times. Perhaps "tanning" was
also involved....???? OK..rake me over the coals!!!!
And lets not get pissy over this.
John Funk (or maybe I should stay anonymous on this one)
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Casapy123@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California trapping brigades
Date: 17 Dec 1998 23:49:19 EST
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--part0_913956612_boundary
Content-ID: <0_913956612@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Several of you have asked for further info regarding the trapping brigades
entering California. I have attached a file, written in WordPerfect, that
provides a very brief outline of each brigade. While it was compiled for
another purpose, it does not have good documentation. Thus, I have added a
list of books that have good info on these same men and brigades to help you
continue your own research. Let me know if I can help you in any way.
Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA 95971
(530)283-4566 (H)
(530)283-3330 (W)
(530)283-5171 FAX
Casapy123@aol.com
--part0_913956612_boundary
Content-ID: <0_913956612@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: application/octet-stream;
name="BONAVENT.URA"
Content-transfer-encoding: base64
Content-disposition: inline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--part0_913956612_boundary--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: thanks ralph
Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:29:39 -0700
Ralph,
Definitely helps, can easily see how hide glue-ing the layers would help
make it work, thanks for the detail
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pennsylvania Gazette's
Date: 18 Dec 1998 00:45:09 -0500
I also thank you. This is a great sight for some of the American History in my
classroom.
Linda Holley
Barry Conner wrote:
> Bob,
> I see what you mean, this is a good site, thank you.
>
> Buck
> ___________________
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pennsylvania Gazette's
>
> >>Could you give us the URL for the Pennsylvania Gazette,
> >
> >Sure, Buck, glad to. This database has become my very favorite site on the
> >internet. The URL is:
> >
> >http://204.170.102.11/cgi-bin/accessible/verify.pl
> >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More on early tanneries
Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:40:00 -0700
Great comments on early tanneries, does this book point to any of the actual
tanning processes, ie bark tan, oil tan or what?
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
2755 Sinclair Creek Rd
Eureka MT 59917
406-889-5532
Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning
and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books
and class schedules.
-----Original Message-----
>The following citations all come from "The Fur Trade," Vol. II, written by
>Paul C. Phillips, University of Oklahoma Press, 1961. While not as
detailed
>as one might like, these references establish that there was a lot of
>"manufacturing" of leather products in America in its early years. I'll
keep
>looking.
>
>p. 120 - "During the early years of the republice, the fabrication of pelts
>was an important industry. Imports from Europe were scarce, and hats,
shoes,
>and clothing were produced almost entirely within the United States.
Textile
>manufactures had not yet developed, and the chief raw material was the
pelts
>of animals. Tanneries used deerskins for the manufacture of leather, and
>these skins came from the South as well as from the country along the
northern
>Alleghenies."
>
>p. 120 - The furriers and tanners of the day operated individually, on a
small
>scale. But there were many of them - enough to supply the needs of the
>country - and the aggregate of their business was large. Their names have
>mostly been forgotten, although the biographer of Astor has resurrected a
>number of them who were associated with the great fur merchant in the early
>years of his career. These include Robert Browne, the Quaker merchant,
Hayman
>Levy, a Mr. Wilson, and Cornelius Heyer and Cornelius Heeney, who may have
>been the same person."
>
>p. 152 - "Philadelphia was second in importance to New York, in both
trading
>and manufacture of pelts. It was the center of a long established tanning
>industry, and used many deerskins."
>
>p. - 161 - "Self-sufficiency had been forced on the country by a long
period
>of commercial restriction [due to the War of 1812]. As a result,
manufactures
>had developed, and among the important were manufactures from furs and
skins.
>Leather-tanning had expanded to a value of more than $12,000,000 a year and
>used all the deerskins available."
>
>Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
>P.O. Box 1228
>Quincy, CA 95971
>(530)283-4566 (H)
>(530)283-3330 (W)
>(530)283-5171 FAX
>Casapy123@aol.com
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc topics
Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:43:44 -0700
Capt Lahti says:
So how does that allow us to go Willie Nillie in
>creating new and individual ways of dressing for the present day historical
>reenactment? The bottom line is that if you can't place it in the time and
>locality of the event you are reenacting it really isn't the proper thing
to do.
>That people do it don't make it right!
I don't believe I or anyone in this conversation has professed an interest
in going 'willie-nillie' in creating new and individual way of dressing for
the present day historical re-enactment. That this is a current problem or
gripe, I recognize, but that isn't the direction of this conversation.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
2755 Sinclair Creek Rd
Eureka MT 59917
406-889-5532
Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning
and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books
and class schedules.
-----Original Message-----
>Matt,
>
>Matt Richards wrote:
>
>> 1. You're right in that I have always assumed that at least some of the
mtn
>> men made their own clothes and accoutrements.....and that this lead me to
>> assume that they would improvise a bit to suit their own needs. Do others
on
>> this list agree with this assertion that nearly all of their clothing
(aside
>> from mocs) was purchased?
>
>Thanks for the opportunity to vote on something. I agree in principle with
>Allen's assertion that most if not all their clothing was purchased and I
would
>add, or made for them by indian or white seamstress' on the scene. There
were a
>lot more divers peoples (other than our heroes) on the scene than most
realize.
>many of the engage's or hired help had families with them and many of these
>people came from the original fur trade activities in the Old North West.
>French, Half breeds, eastern indians, etc. Considering the evidence put
forth on
>the amount of dry goods and sewing supplies sent west, one can extrapolate
a
>thriving "cottage' industry going on for anyone able to sew garments in the
>"white" fashion.
>
>2. I very clearly did not hear any real evidence or sources for leather
garments
>of the period being made out of bark tan.....only inferences from the fact
that
>there were a lot of tanneries and garment makers. I would still love to
know of
>some...not to challenge what you are saying (though I do doubt it somewhat)
but
>for my own knowledge.
>
>Can't add anything on this other than the volume of such organized business
and
>home oriented tanning activity that was going on.
>
>> 3. Have read several times the resource you mention. Not a primary source
by
>> any means, but some interesting stuff. (Welsh, Peter. "Tanning in the
>> United States to 1850").
>>
>> 4. The quotes regarding 'leather' breeches are highly open to
>> interpretation. While there was often some clear distinctions between
>> 'buckskin' being what we call brain or smoke tan, and 'leather' meaning
>> bark-tan, this distinction doesn't seem to be any where near universal,
or
>> even necessarily predominant.
>
>If that is the case then we will just have to live with the knowledge that
>Breeches made of leather are proper and can be made of indian dressed hides
or
>other period correct leathers until a primary source comes along that says
one
>or the other was the way it was done.
>
>> 6. I think your comment comparing period guns and clothing is relevant in
>> some ways, but not completely. With the guns you are comparing pieces of
>> technology, and a knowledge of the technology. With clothing, at least
the
>> context I've been writing and reading about on this list, the question is
>> more along the lines of the assumption that one could personalize one's
own
>> clothing within the existing technology and knowledge of the day. I don't
>> know practically anything about muzzleloading guns, but I'll try to make
an
>> analogy: Its more like some-one deciding to shorten the stock so that it
fit
>> their body better, or devised a different way of attaching the strap than
>> was the 'norm' for such and such a reason.
>
>If we compare the guns of the time and how they were thought of and use
that as
>an analogy of how these people may have dealt with the subject of personal
>clothing then we would see very little "personalizing" of clothing. I don't
>recall seeing any period guns that were markedly altered other than some
>decorative things like brass tacks (which is probably by indians) and
trying to
>add a rear sight to a smooth gun which was done quit a bit. There were many
>field repairs with wire and raw hide and damaged muzzles were cut down to
allow
>continued use of the gun. there are some rare examples of trade guns being
cut
>down at both ends to facilitate use on horse back or for concealment but
this
>was not wide spread either. So how does that allow us to go Willie Nillie
in
>creating new and individual ways of dressing for the present day historical
>reenactment? The bottom line is that if you can't place it in the time and
>locality of the event you are reenacting it really isn't the proper thing
to do.
>That people do it don't make it right!
>
>> I kind of compare it to food. When you cook food at a re-enactment, do
you
>> only use recipes that you can document? Or do you think that it is
somewhat
>> reasonable to take some of the fixings that were available and used at
the
>> time and place, and cook them up without a documentable recipe? (with the
>> obvious exception of it not being appropriate to take period fixings and
>> deliberately make some favorite dish of a later time.....that not
>> acceptable).
>
>There are many that try very hard to eat as the historical record says they
ate.
>There are also many modern reasons why this is not always done. I and I'm
sure
>many others try very hard, within the bounds of what is known, to walk the
>straight and narrow but when I can't, I try to be honest about it and say
this
>is probably not right but for now it is the best I can do. I also try hard
not
>to do things that are easily visible and are not period correct because
many new
>folks will look at me walking down the trail in my "Pendlton Wool Chief
Joseph
>Blanket Capote" and think, "gee that's a beautiful coat and Old Uncle Rog,
who's
>been in this for 30 years, always does things right so that must be ok".
>
>> As far as 'fashion police' go, I'm sure they existed. They've existed in
>> every time and place, including our own. But like the guys on the
>> yellowstone who grew their hair long and wore indian clothes, ...there
have
>> always been people who didn't follow the rules of the fashion police. And
>> there is a huge leap from altering period style so that they fit the mtn
man
>> of the time's needs, to wholesale adopting a different style. My argument
is
>> that people would have altered stuff when it made practical utilitarian
>> sense (and occasionally just because).
>
>I just loved Allens observations on "fashion police" and the fact that you
don't
>hear about the "accouterment police" or the "gun police" or the "camp gear
>police" just says that people think they should be able to wear what ever
they
>have spent their money on without critique. And my argument is that they
didn't
>alter stuff when it made practical utilitarian sense in our modern context.
Are
>your attitudes the same as your grandfathers or will they be shared by your
>great grand children? Hardly. Well the attitudes of people in the 18th and
19th
>Century were a lot different than those we harbor and live our modern lives
by
>now. If we want to pretend to be living in those bygone eras' we are
obligated
>to try to think like they did. What innovative ways would you portray some
>persona from the 13th or 14th Century if you were a member of the Honorable
>"Society for Creative Anachronism" 'It sure is impractical to were these
cloths
>so I think I will be innovative and change the style and fabric to a more
>practical cut, etc. that I am aware of from the hundreds of years of
history
>that followed those early Centuries'. Silly isn't it?
>
>This ain't the sixties and I ain't no free spirit "flower child" no more.
I'm
>trying to recreate the American life style of the 18th and 19th Century and
>their "free spirit" is just romanticism on our part. I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments
Date: 17 Dec 1998 23:45:57 -0600
Matt, Bob and Alan,
Great thread. The link to "The Pennsylvania Gazette" is invaluable.
One receipt from 1825 calls for white vitriol (sulphate of zinc), cream of
tartar, sal ammoniac (muriate of ammonia), vitriolic acid (sulphuric), nitric
acid, spirit of salt (hydrochloric acid), oak bark, sumach, elm bark,
sassafras, lignum vitae, and water. All in the same receipt.
Some receipts are quite simple and only include one or two materials, some are
very complex; I've always considered all of the ingredients a part of the
tanning process. Bark tanning can produce very hard leathers which are
primarily what we see today; the old receipts include many other techniques in
combination with bark and seem to indicate supple leathers could also be
produced using bark.
From the same period I have recipes which include dog and pigeon dung used
with
water and sumach, several call for soaking in a fermented liquor of bran and
water, some with and some without oil, alum or tannin. One oil tan receipt
makes extensive use of both quicklime and slacked lime in preparation for the
oiling which follows a long soak in fermented bran liquor.
I asked about the term "dressing" as all of the old receipts I've encountered
using this term only refer to mixtures which are applied to finished goods for
preservation or protection.
Oil, alum and other leather receipts are included with the tannin based
receipts and all are called "tanning" even though the only early 1800's
definition I've encountered states that tanning is to saturate a skin with
tannin to promote the slow combination with the gelatine, albumen and fibrine
contained in the hide. Pretty much what you said only not as technical.
If I get some extra time I'll dig out some references to some of the other
materials. Time has recently been in short supply, for quite a while.
More old receipts I've found include alum than even bark, the acids and
arsenics are more unusual. The best "tan" oak was taken from the Live Oak
tree
which is in short supply today, most common now in Texas and I think
protected. As you said many trees were used for tanning in the past.
RE: urine tan; have you ever smelled cheap modern Mexican garment or
upholstery leather after a rain storm? They couldn't be using anything else.
I'll keep an eye out for the old reference buried somewhere in my piles of
stuff.
Many of the old methods we will never know as they were amongst the "secrets"
of a trade: and protected by the Masters of the guilds. A very common problem
when working with old ways.
John...
At 02:45 PM 12/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Johns reply to my comment of not knowing of any other period tanning methods
>besides bark, brain, oil and alum was:
>
>Except for oil tanning, egg tanning, urine tanning, buttermilk tanning, sour
>>milk tanning, arsenic tanning and acid tanning.
>>
>
>I guess a lot has to do with how we define our terms. The term 'brain
>tanning' did not exist to my knowledge before modern times. The accepted way
>(among the leather industry) of defining tanning terms is based on how the
>actual chemical change is affected on the leather. If something actually
>changes the collagen proteins of the skin, permanently, it is a 'tanning'
>agent.
>
>I am well aware that there was an incredibly wide variety of substances used
>and substituted in various tanning recipes throughout the ancient
>world....but often it is still considered the same method of tanning. From
>the example above 'sour milk tanning, buttermilk tanning, and egg tanning'
>are generally considered the same thing as 'brain tanning' as they affect
>the leather in the same way. Soap tanning does too. Oil tanning is a
>different process because the fish oils (usually cod) oxidize extremely
>easily, and in this oxidation they create polymers which change the collagen
>fibers of the skin. You can not wash out the effects of true 'oil tans'
>There is actually reasonable speculation that this type of tanning was being
>done by many native tribes in the northwest, and was clearly done by
>Europeans of this era on many of the deerskins that were exported to that
>continent. Oil tanning is a term that is commonly thrown around by people
>any time an oil is added to the tanning mix, not really knowing what it
>means.
>
>As far as urine tanning goes, I'd love to see some evidence of this. I've
>met one man so far, who claims to have actually seen someone 'urine tan' and
>he has described it to me in detail....so I'm gonna try it. But for the most
>part, it seems to be a term that is thrown around, with little real basis.
>Urine was commonly used by NW Coast and Arctic people to strip the oils out
>of skins that were otherwise just too dang oily to do anything with, but not
>as a 'tanning' agent.
>
>And while there were many, many sources of tannins for bark tanning, its
>still just considered bark tanning. The hides you are referring too that
>were sent from San Franciso to Boston, were destined for bark tanneries (and
>soon a huge bark tanning industry developed in California based on Tan Oak).
>
>Lime and saltpeter were both used in many traditional tanning methods, but
>neither is a 'tanning' agent, and wouldn't be known as 'lime tan' or
>anything like that. Lime was used in the first recorded account of Comanche
>brain tanning, and is standard in chrome tanning and bark tanning.
>
>As far as arsenic and acid (besides tannic) tans go, these are modern
>methods as far as I know. Do you know of any references to these being done
>during or before the period we are talking about?
>
>
>You asked what I thought of the comments about brain tanning being a
>dressing rather than a true tanning.....
>
>I do not know what the accepted definition of tanning was back in the early
>1800's, but in modern times, 'tanning' occurs when the protein fibers
>(collagen) are permanently changed in their composition, so that the skin
>can never go back to rawhide. Brains do not do this, unless they do a very,
>very, weak oil tan (by oxidizing).....and I think it is more accurate to
>call it a dressing (experimenting with, I have successfully completely
>removed all of the effects of the braining by putting a brained and softened
>hide in a running creek for three days....all of the tactilely discernable
>effects of the brains were gone, it was rawhide again)....however smoke does
>tan a hide.
>
>Smoke contains a gaseous form of formaldehyde which is why it preserves
>stuff (and one reason that it is carcinogenic). It causes the collagen
>proteins to form new links to one another at different points on the protein
>chain (this is all in leather chemistry books if anyone is real interested I
>could give you some good titles). In graphic terms, it causes the fibers to
>form little bridges between one another that are permanent. You can not wash
>out the effects of the smoke....the color will wash out, but not the
>'tanning'. It'd be more accurate if we all referred to it as 'smoke tanning'
>and 'brain dressing' like some folks do....but the term 'brain tanning' is
>popular and here to stay.
>
>As a side note, 'Alum Tanning' is not generally accepted as a 'true' tanning
>method, because the affects can be easily washed out. That is one reason it
>is generally referred to as 'Tawing' rather than tanning.
>
>A great book on ancient tanning methods and recipes from throughout the
>world, with excellent yet understandable explanations of the chemistry and
>related processes is 'Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers' by Ronald
>Reed. It also talks about the conversion of parchments to leathers that you
>were referring too.
>
>Matt Richards
><http://www.braintan.com/>www.braintan.com
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period clothing
Date: 17 Dec 1998 23:05:34 -0700
Whats interesting to me in this discussion, is that I see many of the folks
who I'm assuming have been doing this for a long time, easily coming to the
conclusion that any ideas of altering period clothing as equalling the
wholesale bastardization of what was worn. My guess is that this is a hot
issue because so many folks do wholesale bastardizations, and that this is a
long standing issue.
The original context of this conversation was not the idea that one has the
right to run 'willie-nillie' over period styles, but that perhaps mtn men of
this era did alter some of their stuff to make it more practical for their
immediate survival situations, within the context of period materials,
technology and styles. This is a far jump from the defensive stances that I
read several of you taking. If you could not lump this with the countless
previous discussions you've perhaps had with folks who've wanted to just
make what'ever the hell they want, and look at the actual context of the
conversation, I think we would get farther with it.
In all due respect,
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Gail Carbiener" <carbg@cmc.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period clothing
Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:16:28 -0800
Waugh:
I have read with interest the discussions on clothing and now on
tanning. Great infomation............ but it seems that after a day or two
we begin to start using the "you" and "I" and the discussion goes to hell in
a hurry. Maybe that is an indication that we have said all there is to say!
Gail Carbiener
===================================================
-----Original Message-----
>Whats interesting to me in this discussion, is that I see many of the folks
>who I'm assuming have been doing this for a long time, easily coming to the
>conclusion that any ideas of altering period clothing as equalling the
>wholesale bastardization of what was worn. My guess is that this is a hot
>issue because so many folks do wholesale bastardizations, and that this is
a
>long standing issue.
>
>The original context of this conversation was not the idea that one has the
>right to run 'willie-nillie' over period styles, but that perhaps mtn men
of
>this era did alter some of their stuff to make it more practical for their
>immediate survival situations, within the context of period materials,
>technology and styles. This is a far jump from the defensive stances that I
>read several of you taking. If you could not lump this with the countless
>previous discussions you've perhaps had with folks who've wanted to just
>make what'ever the hell they want, and look at the actual context of the
>conversation, I think we would get farther with it.
>
>In all due respect,
>
>Matt Richards
>www.braintan.com
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period clothing
Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:45:11 -0800
Matt,
So I'm listening. Whether needed or not I am taking a deep breath and waiting
to clearly see the actual content of the conversation. In all due respect. I
remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Matt Richards wrote:
> Whats interesting to me in this discussion, is that I see many of the folks
> who I'm assuming have been doing this for a long time, easily coming to the
> conclusion that any ideas of altering period clothing as equalling the
> wholesale bastardization of what was worn. My guess is that this is a hot
> issue because so many folks do wholesale bastardizations, and that this is a
> long standing issue.
>
> The original context of this conversation was not the idea that one has the
> right to run 'willie-nillie' over period styles, but that perhaps mtn men of
> this era did alter some of their stuff to make it more practical for their
> immediate survival situations, within the context of period materials,
> technology and styles. This is a far jump from the defensive stances that I
> read several of you taking. If you could not lump this with the countless
> previous discussions you've perhaps had with folks who've wanted to just
> make what'ever the hell they want, and look at the actual context of the
> conversation, I think we would get farther with it.
>
> In all due respect,
>
> Matt Richards
> www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Matt's reply to John's comments
Date: 17 Dec 1998 23:50:35 -0700
From John Kramer,
>From the same period I have recipes which include dog and pigeon dung used
>with
>water and sumach, several call for soaking in a fermented liquor of bran
and
>water, some with and some without oil, alum or tannin.
This is really cool to hear of in an American context (are these recipes in
an early American context?). These methods were very common in europe and
were generally known as 'bating' (for the dog and pigeon dung) or
'drenching' for the fermented bran.
They are not 'tanning' agents, but were used after the liming process to
further remove the mucus that inhibits the penetration of the tanning
agents. A very typical process is: 1. flesh,
2. soak the hides in lime,
3. scrape (in modern times, split),
4. de-lime (in plain water or weak acids such as vinegar)
5. bate or drench.
6. soak in tannins for bark tan or cod oil for an oil tan
7. if a bark tan, then apply an oil 'dressing' of dubbin or tallow.
The mucus I am referring to is found in all fresh skin, and has the function
of allowing small molecules (like water and nutrients) to pass through,
while inhibiting large molecules (such as bacteria and unfortunately for the
tanner----oils or tannins).
To remove this mucus is a basic step in any tanning process.
Any kind of alkaline soak of the proper strength will remove most of it
(such as a wood-ash lye, lime (either slaked or hydrated), or commercial lye
(sodium hydroxide).
Wood-ash lyes were very commonly used by native american tribes when brain
tanning, and I would argue that for brain tanning, the purpose was not to
slip the hair so much as to improve brain penetration (the two earliest
sources that describe native tanning in detail both emphasize the use of
wood-ash soaks------George Catlin, and John D. Hunter). Understanding this,
and the resulting experiments that Michelle and I did are what resulted in
our book 'Deerskins into Buckskins'. It makes the brains penetrate far
better and easier, and greatly simplified our tanning.
After the hide is soaked in alkali, and that alkali is rinsed out in plain
water, hides can be soaked in biologically active acids ---- which is where
the dog and pigeon dung, or fermented brans come into play (no evidence of
this in Indian tanning and not something that we do, though I would like to
play with it). The bacteria feed on the sugars that are in any remaining
mucus (this mucus is a 'muco-polysaccharide', the saccharide being the
sugar), and consume it, further opening up the hide structure and making it
easier for your tanning agents to reach the fibers themselves.
These substances were particularly used for soft leathers as it supposedly
really loosens things up. In modern tanning this is still practiced, but the
active enzymes have been isolated and can be applied in very controlled
chemical situations (no need for anymore dog shit). Another material
commonly used for this was beer dregs (another enzymatically active acid
that digests sugar).
>One oil tan receipt
>makes extensive use of both quicklime and slacked lime in preparation for
the
>oiling which follows a long soak in fermented bran liquor.
This is and was a common practice in most tanning methods for the reasons
stated above.
>I asked about the term "dressing" as all of the old receipts I've
encountered
>using this term only refer to mixtures which are applied to finished goods
for
>preservation or protection.
Dressing commonly refers to the oiling of a hide to improve its
pliability.....which is what tallows and dubbins applied after a bark tan
do. The hide is already tanned, by the bark, but the oils make it far more
pliable and soft.
One of the weird things about 'brain' tanning is that this is generally done
before the actually tanning (by the smoke). This is partly the concept
behind the 'pre-smoking' that the Dinsmore's do. In their method (also used
by various Canadian tribes on their Moose skins), the tanning comes first
and then the dressing...as in most commercial tanning methods.
The challenge with understanding references to oils and tanning is that oils
are used for two purposes.......for both tanning and 'dressing'. Different
oils are generally used for each. Cod oil is, and was, the oil preferred for
oil tanning (changing the actual structure of the fibers)-----it is
reasonably safe (though not completely, because it can be used as a
dressing) to assume that where-ever cod oil is mentioned in association with
tanning that an oil tan is being practiced-----, while dubbins and tallows
were used for 'dressing'. In reading the historical record this can be quite
confusing for folks who don't understand this distinction.
The properties of 'oil-tans' are very similar to that of 'brain tans', in
look, feel and use.
They can be reasonably inexpensive as it does lend itself to a modern
industrial tanning process---- I think it is an excellent choice for folks
who don't want to spend the money or time on brain tan, a far better choice
than chrome-tan. Crazy Crow currently has a great deal on German oil-tans.
I highly recommend 'Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers' by Ronald Reed.
It describes all of this in terms that you don't need a leather chemistry
degree to understand. This book is available at most major University
libraries.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <itwhee@mcn.org>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments
Date: 18 Dec 1998 03:12:33 -0800
bark tan was extensive in California a mans rigging hors gear was of a color
that if he road into strange camp you could tell by the color of the leather if
he was from California or the general area there of iv never heard of bark tan
being used for garments. to much tannic acid. bark tan a derivative of tan oak i
flourishes in this area. the wild cattle in this area and southern california
were used extensively for leather. they were killed just for the hides and left
to rot. the indians were used in the manufacture. i think texas was another area
that had this industry. some skins were shipped out all over the world and
indeed to Mexico. there were tanneries all over the southern ca area in late
1700 hud and early 1800hds. enough of my babble. iron tongue.
Matt Richards wrote:
> Allen
> I appreciate your spoutin off! Makes for good conversation and learning. I
> disagree with you on a number of points....here goes.
>
> 1) You are right that there were 'commercial' tanneries throughout the
> colonies and states...and that they predominantly bark tanned. In the
> moderate amount of research I've done on this, I have found no evidence of
> any other type of tanning being done in a tannery of the day.
>
> Bark tan is not a material that has, or was, commonly used as a garment
> leather in any period of time. Bark tanned leather just doesn't lend itself
> well to garments (doesn't breath, is thicker and stiffer). Of course it's
> excellent for shoes (in town), bags, water bottles, belts and countless
> other uses. But garments ain't one of them (with the exception of armor in
> the middle ages). Do you have any evidence of it being used for shirts,
> jackets, breeches or the like during this era?
>
> Bark tanneries were in fact one of the very earliest forms of
> industrialization in the US, in the late 1700's. It lends itself to being
> industrialized because it requires an immense quantity of bark to be
> pounded, and that's the part of the process that was industrialized. Huge
> toothed wheels were pulled around in a circle by horses and mules to crush
> the bark.
>
> I have never heard of any other type of tannery in the early US, if anyone
> has, lets hear about it.
>
> 2.) Alan, you stated that "Most of the tanning was for heavy leather,
> but a significant part went into garment leather
> which in turn was mostly used for breeches and
> gloves. I believe that as the breeches went out
> of fashion in the first quarter of the 19th
> century, leather pantaloons were manufactured on
> the same basis."
>
> I am very curious to know of any primary sources for this information.
>
> My understanding from primary source research is that hundreds of thousands
> of hides were sent to England.....many of them already brain and smoke
> tanned by Natives (such as the Creeks). As the 1700's went on, an increasing
> amount of these exported deerskins were sent untanned. They were then tanned
> in Europe, using an oil tanning process, and many of these were then shipped
> back to the US for use in garments. Many more hides were tanned on people's
> homesteads and in their backyards for use as garment leathers (this is
> generally presumed to be brain tanning, though there isn't any specific
> evidence I know of.....the only other real option was alum tanning).
>
> I have never read of tanneries in the US making garment leathers in the
> 1700's or early 1800's, if you know of any sources for this information, I'd
> love to know about it for my own studies.
>
> 3) As far as hides being smoked or unsmoked on the plains. My previous
> statement was that smoking was not nearly as common of a practice amongst
> Native peoples as most people presume (the common line is that white hides
> were just for ceremonial use). You are right that there are many references
> of tipi tops being cut up into moccasins, and that you can certainly find
> pieces in museums that were smoked. You're also right that smoked buckskin
> washed a great deal starts to look like it may have never been smoked.
>
> My comments on smoking is not based on 'common knowlege' as you termed it,
> its based on studying ethnographies.....the earliest accounts of brain and
> smoke tanning that seem to exist. I have a bibliography of well over 100
> accounts of Native tanning processes that I'm planning to put up on
> braintan.com tomorrow. Admittedly, very few are pre-1840, but unfortunately
> there are very few detailed accounts of Plains Indian tanning pre-1840
> (exceptions being John D. Hunter's and George Catlin's).
>
> In all due respect, lets get down to the nitty gritty of what we really
> know, and what is supposition!
>
> Matt Richards
> www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Powell" <bpowell@kiva.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Unsubscribe
Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:23:00 -0500
Unsubscribe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Southwestern styles (aka Carson's jacket)
Date: 18 Dec 1998 09:09:20 -0600 (CST)
>One question for you all (as I am trying to learn your approach to this), if
>this coat can be reasonably placed as being used by Kit prior to 1840 in the
>Rocky Mtns, would its replica be considered period for what you folks do? Or
>is anything of Mexican or southwestern influence considered somehow off
>limits, or not a part of the same scene? Honest question...
First of all, you need not document that Carson wore it unless you're doing
Carson. All you need to do is to document that the style was available and
used during the fur trade era in the west, and I think we've pretty much
established that. Then you'd be alright to use it at a Rendezvous.
Listen, just because you're in Montana, doesn't mean you can't dress
SW'ern. The name of your state is Spanish, btw. There was already some
Spanish influence there. Trappers roamed all over from the Missouri to the
Gila. They didn't necessarily change their clothes from Northern to
Southern when they moved, unless climate dictated. Traders came from all
over to attend a Rendezvous. If they were more oriented to the SW like
Carson and Young, then they might have dressed more Southwestern. Comfort
and protection from the elements were more important than conforming to
regional style.
I think you'd be alright wearing a period Southwestern style outfit at a
Montana rendezvous. Listen pal, if they can have Eastern longhunters and
French Marines at a Rocky Mtn. do, and tipis at a Florida event, then I
think you are in good shape. Whether you do the multi-decade Western fur
trade or more narrowly, just the 15 year Rendezvous period, any way you cut
it, Southwestern fur trade styles are more than appropriate at a Rondy.
Get yourself a copy of Book of Buckskinning Vol. IV. It has an excellent
chapter on Southwestern clothing styles written by our friend Cathy Bauman.
Write me off line to talk about Montana. I have many good friends there,
and I've done some research there as well.
Buena Suerte
HBC
*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford Curator of History
mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442 Box 43191
FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191
WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
****** Living History . . . Because it's there! *******
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "WILLIAM P. GARRISON" <grizstp@micron.net>
Date: 18 Dec 1998 08:42:06 -0700
------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A62.62A38DC0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
unsubscribe
------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A62.62A38DC0
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64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------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A62.62A38DC0--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments
Date: 18 Dec 1998 10:46:08 -0700
Aaargh!! I thought I could rely on a nice, quiet Christmas season of Mtn Man
postings so that I would be able to get my packing finished for my January
move. But no, you guys just got real interesting all of a sudden...
*Leather breeches:* There is documentation for at least one pair of breeches
or trousers made from brain tanned leather for a fur trader. It was, if I
recall correctly, made by a voyageur for North West Company wintering
partner Archibald Norman McLeod c. 1803, when he was at Fort Alexandria (in
SW Manitoba). The reference is in Charles Gates' _Five Fur Traders of the
Northwest_. There are two pairs of English buckskin breeches from c. 1815
shown in _Revolution in Fashion_ (Jean Starobinski, ed; pp. 94, 150). In the
photographs, the leather looks to me like a heavy suede; it appears to be
heavier than the brain-tan I've seen. One pair is gold-coloured, the other
is white. The breeches are in the collection of the Kyoto Costume Institute,
who could settle this issue once & for all, if someone wants to write them.
*Who made the clothes?:* Here's a response from the perspective of the
Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821. The voyageurs of the North West Company had
most of their clothing supplied by their employers (See Alexander
Mackenzie's introduction to his _Voyages_.) By the early 1820's, the HBC was
also supplying their employees' clothing (George Simpson's _Athabasca
Journals_). Both companies also brought in a lot of clothing as trade goods.
However, the men also made their own winter clothing at least some of the
time--I have a few references to voyageurs and their wives making capots,
mittens, & socks as the winter begins. One of these is to David Thompson's
men & women making these items of clothing before crossing the Athabasca
Pass through the Rockies in 1810 (in Barbara Belyea's _Columbia Journals_).
Moccasins were made by the country wives or traded from local Native women.
Also, some fur posts had tailors. The HBC's Edmonton House (Edmonton,
Alberta), c. 1795-1798, was one; Fort William (Thunder Bay, Ontario), the
NWC headquarters, was another.
Can you tell that my library is half-packed already? "Dave, my mind is
going... I can feel it..." I can supply more details after we get unpacked
in mid-January ; just drop me a line if you need the full references. (My
e-mail address will stay the same.)
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
agottfre@telusplanet.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period clothing
Date: 18 Dec 1998 10:01:35 -0800
Matt,
I'm not as tired as I was last night when I first read this post so I would like
to take another stab at an answer.
Matt Richards wrote:
> Whats interesting to me in this discussion, is that I see many of the folks
> who I'm assuming have been doing this for a long time, easily coming to the
> conclusion that any ideas of altering period clothing as equalling the
> wholesale bastardization of what was worn. My guess is that this is a hot
> issue because so many folks do wholesale bastardizations, and that this is a
> long standing issue.
It can be a hot issue and perhaps got to be but one of the problems with the
course of the discussion is in fully understanding what some one is saying. I
assume you hear what I am saying and you assume I am hearing what you are
saying. Then I see something that makes me think you didn't hear and I talk
louder. Well, I wasn't thinking that "any ideas of altering period clothing as
equaling the wholesale bastardization of what was worn" was what was going on.
What I was advocating is simply to not think that we can alter period clothing
because we want to or think its better. If we want to be true to the idea of
historical reenacting we need to be a bit restrained in our zeal to make it
better unless we can show where or how that was done.
> The original context of this conversation was not the idea that one has the
> right to run 'willie-nillie' over period styles, but that perhaps mtn men of
> this era did alter some of their stuff to make it more practical for their
> immediate survival situations, within the context of period materials,
> technology and styles.
Well that is something else again entirely. "Within the context of period
materials, technology and styles", I thought was what I was advocating. Sorry if
that didn't come across. Again, though, I don't think it appropriate to assume
'they' did this because we might do it.
> This is a far jump from the defensive stances that I
> read several of you taking. If you could not lump this with the countless
> previous discussions you've perhaps had with folks who've wanted to just
> make what'ever the hell they want, and look at the actual context of the
> conversation, I think we would get farther with it.
Didn't mean to come on as defensive. If folks want to do their thing, they are
surely welcome. There is a price to pay sometimes for that and it is usually in
money wasted. I been doing this long enough to develop some strong opinions and
gain a little knowledge. I feel you and I have a right and obligation to share
our opinions and knowledge with anyone who cares to listen. I have enjoyed your
contributions to the conversation and only jumped in when I didn't agree with
what I was hearing. That hasn't been all that much either. Now back to the
disscusion at hand or have we beaten it to death for now? I remain........
Respectfully,
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
>
>
> In all due respect,
>
> Matt Richards
> www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments
Date: 18 Dec 1998 20:51:38 -0700
John,
You mentioning "urine tan", years ago when Jack Gardener was building guns
for Dixie and seen on many pages of their catalog holding an assembled kit
gun, "that you could build", probably in the mid 60's.
I was visiting Jack at Union City (Dixie Gun Works), Jack wanted to show me
a mistake that Turner had made, "urine tan leather", you could smell it at
least a 100 yards away with the door closed, The Mexican garments are very
mild to this.
Buck
>RE: urine tan; have you ever smelled cheap modern Mexican garment or
>upholstery leather after a rain storm? They couldn't be using anything
else.
>I'll keep an eye out for the old reference buried somewhere in my piles of
>stuff.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Deer Hunters Journal / Holiday Wish
Date: 19 Dec 1998 18:38:04 EST
We seen reports of some great hunt's this season... Here are the Journal
entries you didn't see....
1:00 am - Alarm clock rings.
2:00 am - Hunting partner arrives - drags you out of bed.
3:00 am - Throw everything except the kitchen sink in the pickup.
3:05 am - Leave for the deep woods.
3:15 am - Drive back home and pick up gun.
3:30 am - Drive like a bat outta hell to get to the woods before daylight.
4:00 am - Set up camp - forgot the tent.
4:30 am - Head into the woods.
6:05 am - See eight deer.
6:06 am - Take aim and squeeze trigger.
6:07 am - "Click."
6:08 am - Load gun while watching deer go over the hill.
8:00 am - Head back to camp.
9:00 am - Still looking for camp.
10:00 am - Realize you don't know where camp is.
Noon - Fire gun for help - eat wild berries.
12:15 pm - Ran out of bullets - eight deer come back.
12:20 pm - Strange feeling in stomach.
12:30 pm - Realize you ate poison berries.
12:45 pm - Rescued.
12:55 pm - Rushed to hospital to have stomach pumped.
3:00 pm - Arrived back in camp.
3:30 pm - leave camp to kill deer.
4:00 pm - Return to camp for bullets.
4:01 pm - Load gun - leave camp again.
5:00 pm - Empty gun on squirrel that's bugging you.
6:00 pm - Arrive at camp - see deer grazing in camp.
6:01 pm - Load gun.
6:02 pm - Fire gun.
6:03 pm - One dead pickup truck.
6:05 pm - Hunting partner returns to camp dragging deer.
6:06 pm - Repress strong desire to shoot partner.
6:07 pm - Fall into fire.
6:10 pm - Change clothes - throw burned ones into fire.
6:15 pm - Take pickup - leave partner and his deer in the woods.
6:25 pm - Pickup boils over - hole shot in block.
6:26 pm - Start walking.
6:30 pm - Stumble and fall - drop gun in the mud.
6:35 pm - Meet bear.
6:36 pm - Take aim.
6:37 pm - Fire gun - blow up barrel plugged with mud.
6:38 pm - Make mess in pants.
6:39 pm - Climb tree.
9:00 pm - Bear departs - wrap %&*$#@ gun around tree.
Midnight - Home at last.
WISHING ALL OF YOU AND YOURS A HEALTHY, HAPPY HOLIDAY SEASON AND A VERY
PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR. THANKS TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU FOR SHARING THE YOUR
WEALTH OF INFORMATION WITH THIS PILGRIM. yhs, Ralph Rosen aka PJ aka Shoots
Himself, now most properly and deservedly named BARNEY P. FIFE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 08:59:47 +0100
All you folks out there who live in other climes
might note that it was -21 this early a.m.
up here in tropical Montana.
Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its
too damn cold to live in Montana.
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jerry Anderson"<janderson@umary.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 12:14:23 -600
>All you folks out there who live in other climes
>might note that it was -21 this early a.m.
>up here in tropical Montana.
>Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its
>too damn cold to live in Montana.
>Allen Chronister
>
>
With all due respect and admiration to the gentleman from the warm and beautiful
state of Montana, we in North Dakota have very little sympathy with ANYBODY
when it comes to to the subject of cold...
Jerry Anderson
somewhere on the frozen prairies of Dakota, in a -42 wind chill.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Eldon L Ayers <2badger@3rivers.net>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 11:27:59 -0700
Allen,
This morning our ambient air temperature was -26. However, with our breeze
blowing in off of the balmy Alaskan Interior our wind chill was -56. I
second your thought and wondered if you might like to look into some real
estate with me. We could go shares. I kind of like the Tropic of Cancer.
Any thoughts? Were there trappers on the Amazon?
Remember, a spit patch in this kind of weather freezes before it can be
rammed home, warm up the bit before you put it in your horses mouth, and
heat at least three changes of rocks for your bedroll.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 1:00 AM
Cc: amm
All you folks out there who live in other climes
might note that it was -21 this early a.m.
up here in tropical Montana.
Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its
too damn cold to live in Montana.
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 10:41:58 -0800
Allen,
Northern Cal., Shasta County, Fall River Mills: 3500 feet= -14degrees. No
wind. Shucks, all you guys beat! At 10 am it's now warmed up to 6.
John Funk
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 12:01:49 +0000
Hi Guys, Merry Christmas, etc... to all. It's 45 degrees here at
11:15 am, unusually cool. We actually had 1/8" of ice on some standing
water (in containers) on back patio last night. I have faith though, we
will probably have Christmas Dinner on the open air back patio , as we
have for the last several years. I was born in Minnesota, but I'm
getting used to this climate, as hard as it is to do so <s>. Wishing you
all the best in the coming New Year. Your brother , who is toughing it
out on the Central Cal. Coast, Hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Gary Farabee <hazkoch@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 12:50:43 -0700
Eldon L Ayers wrote:
>
> Allen,
>
> This morning our ambient air temperature was -26. However, with our breeze
> blowing in off of the balmy Alaskan Interior our wind chill was -56. I
> second your thought and wondered if you might like to look into some real
> estate with me. We could go shares. I kind of like the Tropic of Cancer.
> Any thoughts? Were there trappers on the Amazon?
>
> Remember, a spit patch in this kind of weather freezes before it can be
> rammed home, warm up the bit before you put it in your horses mouth, and
> heat at least three changes of rocks for your bedroll.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen Chronister [SMTP:almont@mt.net]
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 1:00 AM
> To: chat
> Cc: amm
> Subject: MtMan-List: the season
>
> All you folks out there who live in other climes
> might note that it was -21 this early a.m.
> up here in tropical Montana.
> Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its
> too damn cold to live in Montana.
> Allen Chronister
To all of you in the frozen north! It is a cold +60 in sunny Phoenix,
Arizona
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 12:28:58 -0800
Jerry and guys,
I guess it is cold where you all are. Here in eastern WA., the area we call the
Banana Belt, it was so warm on Sunday that the wife and I got out on the back deck
and worked on our tans. I think it was 16 degrees or some such. The guy up at the
strip mall had to dig up his 20+ palm trees and take them inside.Balmy compared to
where you are I suppose. Hang in, I remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 15:21:51 -0600
Doc Ivory's wife told me at the ' 96 national that in that part of the =
country you have 10 months of winter and 2 months of visitors. You guys =
just want to keep all that country to yourselves....don't blame you a =
bit. It's one of the best example of God's handiwork that I have ever =
seen. I envy you....except when it's -21 (no doubt with a 40 mph wind =
to add emphasis).
YMOS
Lanney
-----Original Message-----
Cc: amm <ammlist@xmission.com>
>All you folks out there who live in other climes
>might note that it was -21 this early a.m.
>up here in tropical Montana. =20
>Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its
>too damn cold to live in Montana.
>Allen Chronister
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 16:35:11 -0500
For we roasted Floridians, send us some cold. It is 80 degrees here.
You can always come down for a visit Allen. Remember, I am trying to
move out your way. Trying to discourage me.
Linda Holley
Allen Chronister wrote:
> All you folks out there who live in other climes
> might note that it was -21 this early a.m.
> up here in tropical Montana.
> Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its
> too damn cold to live in Montana.
> Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 16:03:45 -0700
Here is sunny Dubois Wyoming it was -35 sunday morning, went duck hunting
with my boy, froze our fingers
Damn it is cold
Joe
Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Kurt Westenbarger" <kwesten@wyellowstone.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 16:21:32 -0700
West Yellowstone Montana this morning -40 at my place. No wind.
Watched the sun rise over Mount Holmes with a comforting cup of joe. 5
bison woke up in my front yard this morning. I love where I live - the
cold just keeps out the riff raff. Get tough or die. ;-)
Kurt
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 17:51:29 -0600
Joe
I came through Dubois about July 6 this year and noticed a lot of snow =
in the shadows. It would take this Texas boy a while to get used to =
that kind of cold. I have primitive camped here at 6 above and that was =
cool enough. Keep warm.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----
>Here is sunny Dubois Wyoming it was -35 sunday morning, went duck =
hunting
>with my boy, froze our fingers
>Damn it is cold
>Joe
>
>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>Write for custom tanning prices
>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather =
and
>hair on robes
>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, =
baskets
>check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: UNSUBSCRIBE
Date: 21 Dec 1998 13:54:30 -0700
WOULD LIKE TO UNSUBSCRIBE.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Deer Hunters Journal / Holiday Wish
Date: 21 Dec 1998 20:51:26 EST
now here is a person who has been totally honest with their journel ---no
frills or fancy stuff---just finish up the annual christmas doins here at
the house had over 150 people passing thru for chillie and wild tyrkey,
deer and the fixins---and remembered that I had not sent greetings and
cheers to all the list may your trails be long and weather be fair this
includes you guys in montana and alaska and your traps full and may the
big maker look over you as you travel during the holiday season----
"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684
E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com
On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:38:04 EST RR1LA@aol.com writes:
>We seen reports of some great hunt's this season... Here are the
>Journal
>entries you didn't see....
>
> 1:00 am - Alarm clock rings.
> 2:00 am - Hunting partner arrives - drags you out of bed.
> 3:00 am - Throw everything except the kitchen sink in the pickup.
> 3:05 am - Leave for the deep woods.
> 3:15 am - Drive back home and pick up gun.
> 3:30 am - Drive like a bat outta hell to get to the woods before
>daylight.
> 4:00 am - Set up camp - forgot the tent.
> 4:30 am - Head into the woods.
> 6:05 am - See eight deer.
> 6:06 am - Take aim and squeeze trigger.
> 6:07 am - "Click."
> 6:08 am - Load gun while watching deer go over the hill.
> 8:00 am - Head back to camp.
> 9:00 am - Still looking for camp.
>10:00 am - Realize you don't know where camp is.
> Noon - Fire gun for help - eat wild berries.
>12:15 pm - Ran out of bullets - eight deer come back.
>12:20 pm - Strange feeling in stomach.
>12:30 pm - Realize you ate poison berries.
>12:45 pm - Rescued.
>12:55 pm - Rushed to hospital to have stomach pumped.
> 3:00 pm - Arrived back in camp.
> 3:30 pm - leave camp to kill deer.
> 4:00 pm - Return to camp for bullets.
> 4:01 pm - Load gun - leave camp again.
> 5:00 pm - Empty gun on squirrel that's bugging you.
> 6:00 pm - Arrive at camp - see deer grazing in camp.
> 6:01 pm - Load gun.
> 6:02 pm - Fire gun.
> 6:03 pm - One dead pickup truck.
> 6:05 pm - Hunting partner returns to camp dragging deer.
> 6:06 pm - Repress strong desire to shoot partner.
> 6:07 pm - Fall into fire.
> 6:10 pm - Change clothes - throw burned ones into fire.
> 6:15 pm - Take pickup - leave partner and his deer in the woods.
> 6:25 pm - Pickup boils over - hole shot in block.
> 6:26 pm - Start walking.
> 6:30 pm - Stumble and fall - drop gun in the mud.
> 6:35 pm - Meet bear.
> 6:36 pm - Take aim.
> 6:37 pm - Fire gun - blow up barrel plugged with mud.
> 6:38 pm - Make mess in pants.
> 6:39 pm - Climb tree.
> 9:00 pm - Bear departs - wrap %&*$#@ gun around tree.
> Midnight - Home at last.
>
>WISHING ALL OF YOU AND YOURS A HEALTHY, HAPPY HOLIDAY SEASON AND A
>VERY
>PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR. THANKS TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU FOR SHARING
>THE YOUR
>WEALTH OF INFORMATION WITH THIS PILGRIM. yhs, Ralph Rosen aka PJ
>aka Shoots
>Himself, now most properly and deservedly named BARNEY P. FIFE
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 20:51:27 EST
was 82 here today at about 11:30 plan on going fishing tonight and it
will be extremely chilly (may need a jacket)
about 55 weather is tough you guys come and visit room for 3 tee pee in
back yard but will be tight---lots of small furry critters running---we
feed them ever day so they are fat and ready to eat---
its tough when people snibble about the weather---happy holidays---
"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684
E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:50:43 -0700 Gary Farabee
<hazkoch@cyberhighway.net> writes:
>Eldon L Ayers wrote:
>>
>> Allen,
>>
>> This morning our ambient air temperature was -26. However, with our
>breeze
>> blowing in off of the balmy Alaskan Interior our wind chill was -56.
> I
>> second your thought and wondered if you might like to look into some
>real
>> estate with me. We could go shares. I kind of like the Tropic of
>Cancer.
>> Any thoughts? Were there trappers on the Amazon?
>>
>> Remember, a spit patch in this kind of weather freezes before it can
>be
>> rammed home, warm up the bit before you put it in your horses mouth,
>and
>> heat at least three changes of rocks for your bedroll.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Allen Chronister [SMTP:almont@mt.net]
>> Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 1:00 AM
>> To: chat
>> Cc: amm
>> Subject: MtMan-List: the season
>>
>> All you folks out there who live in other climes
>> might note that it was -21 this early a.m.
>> up here in tropical Montana.
>> Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its
>> too damn cold to live in Montana.
>> Allen Chronister
>
>
>To all of you in the frozen north! It is a cold +60 in sunny Phoenix,
>Arizona
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 19:29:28 -0800 (PST)
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Kurt Westenbarger wrote:
> West Yellowstone Montana this morning -40 at my place. No wind.
> Watched the sun rise over Mount Holmes with a comforting cup of joe. 5
> bison woke up in my front yard this morning. I love where I live - the
> cold just keeps out the riff raff. Get tough or die. ;-)
On the get tough or die note, I've always enjoyed a really hard winter
here in Idaho. The number of "For Sale" signs that pop up after a killer
winter are amazing, as folks limp back to whereever it is they came from.
Had just a wee nip in the air today, only got down to zero. Had to
roll down my sleeves while working. Can't hold a candle to them fella's
in Montana and N. Dakota.
Too nippy to shoot as the bullet freezes halfway to the target and then
just hangs there till the spring thaw. Makes for a long benchrest
session <G>
Regards
Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 23:17:49 -0600
Does the sound also freeze in mid-air, resulting in a tremendous noise =
when all the sounds thaw in the spring? Not to mention all the flying =
round ball.=20
Your comment about finally having to roll down your sleeves reminds me =
of Mr. Houston Lee, the father of two of my high school classmates in =
the early ' 60's. Mr. Lee had served much of World War Two in Greenland =
and was just about immune to Texas cold weather. I remember him in =
T-shirts when everybody else was bundled up. He would wear a wind =
breaker when the temperature got into the low twenties. I'm not sure he =
even owned a coat. God only knows how cold it got in Greenland. He is =
still very much alive and looks barely 60. =20
YMOS
Lanney
-----Original Message-----
>On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Kurt Westenbarger wrote:
>> West Yellowstone Montana this morning -40 at my place. No wind.
>> Watched the sun rise over Mount Holmes with a comforting cup of joe. =
5
>> bison woke up in my front yard this morning. I love where I live - =
the
>> cold just keeps out the riff raff. Get tough or die. ;-)
>
>On the get tough or die note, I've always enjoyed a really hard winter
>here in Idaho. The number of "For Sale" signs that pop up after a =
killer
>winter are amazing, as folks limp back to whereever it is they came =
from.
>
>Had just a wee nip in the air today, only got down to zero. Had to
>roll down my sleeves while working. Can't hold a candle to them =
fella's
>in Montana and N. Dakota.
>
>Too nippy to shoot as the bullet freezes halfway to the target and then
>just hangs there till the spring thaw. Makes for a long benchrest
>session <G>
>
>Regards
>
>Lee Newbill
>Viola, Idaho
>email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
>Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
>http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 22 Dec 1998 00:31:13 -0800
Boy, you guys have it tough. Tonight I put on a t-shirt to walk out to the
shop - a bit of fog but otherwise a pleasant 70+ degrees at midnight. I only
dream about snow, but just on Christmas eve. The last time I was in W.
Yellowstone it snowed in August! Is it true that you can thump your hanging
game and the frozen hide just shatters to the ground? Wishing all of you a
blessed Christmas and great new year - stay warm!
Tom
Lee Newbill wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Kurt Westenbarger wrote:
> > West Yellowstone Montana this morning -40 at my place. No wind.
> > Watched the sun rise over Mount Holmes with a comforting cup of joe. 5
> > bison woke up in my front yard this morning. I love where I live - the
> > cold just keeps out the riff raff. Get tough or die. ;-)
>
> On the get tough or die note, I've always enjoyed a really hard winter
> here in Idaho. The number of "For Sale" signs that pop up after a killer
> winter are amazing, as folks limp back to whereever it is they came from.
>
> Had just a wee nip in the air today, only got down to zero. Had to
> roll down my sleeves while working. Can't hold a candle to them fella's
> in Montana and N. Dakota.
>
> Too nippy to shoot as the bullet freezes halfway to the target and then
> just hangs there till the spring thaw. Makes for a long benchrest
> session <G>
>
> Regards
>
> Lee Newbill
> Viola, Idaho
> email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
> Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
> http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TetonTod@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 22 Dec 1998 00:36:39 EST
Friends,
That kind of cold reminds me of one of Poordevils tales about ole Bridger
finding some frozen Britishers one of which had a bugle frozen to his lips.
Bridger took the bugle since he didn't need it anymore, and when he warmed it
up some the frozen notes came to life. According to Poordevil, Bridger'd warm
the horn now and then and play some tunes just like the angel Gabriel and
that's how he got the name "Ole Gabe."
Only -5 here in the valley of the Great Salt Lake tonight. You're hoggin all
the cold up there Allen. Send some more down here to help drive off the
immigrants. They's gettin thick.
Happy Holidays!!!!
Todd Glover
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tommy Edge <tedge@nex.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 21 Dec 1998 23:41:07 -0800
Thomas W. Roberts wrote:
> Boy, you guys have it tough. Tonight I put on a t-shirt to walk out to the
> shop - a bit of fog but otherwise a pleasant 70+ degrees at midnight. I only
> dream about snow, but just on Christmas eve. The last time I was in W.
> Yellowstone it snowed in August! Is it true that you can thump your hanging
> game and the frozen hide just shatters to the ground? Wishing all of you a
> blessed Christmas and great new year - stay warm!
>
> Tom
>
> Lee Newbill wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Kurt Westenbarger wrote:
> > > West Yellowstone Montana this morning -40 at my place. No wind.
> > > Watched the sun rise over Mount Holmes with a comforting cup of joe. 5
> > > bison woke up in my front yard this morning. I love where I live - the
> > > cold just keeps out the riff raff. Get tough or die. ;-)
> >
> > On the get tough or die note, I've always enjoyed a really hard winter
> > here in Idaho. The number of "For Sale" signs that pop up after a killer
> > winter are amazing, as folks limp back to whereever it is they came from.
> >
> > Had just a wee nip in the air today, only got down to zero. Had to
> > roll down my sleeves while working. Can't hold a candle to them fella's
> > in Montana and N. Dakota.
> >
> > Too nippy to shoot as the bullet freezes halfway to the target and then
> > just hangs there till the spring thaw. Makes for a long benchrest
> > session <G>
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Lee Newbill
> > Viola, Idaho
> > email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
> > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
> > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
MERRY CHRISTMAS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 22 Dec 1998 02:39:56 -0600
>All you folks out there who live in other climes
>might note that it was -21 this early a.m.
>up here in tropical Montana.
>Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its
>too damn cold to live in Montana.
>Allen Chronister
Been there done that! Its +6 and dropping here,below zero by morning with
-30 to -50 wind chills and promised to blow all day! I'll be the guy with
the frosbit nose and cheeks out there all day!
Gotta Love It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
If a cow laughed would milk come out her nose?
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 22 Dec 1998 02:39:56 -0600
>All you folks out there who live in other climes
>might note that it was -21 this early a.m.
>up here in tropical Montana.
>Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its
>too damn cold to live in Montana.
>Allen Chronister
Been there done that! Its +6 and dropping here,below zero by morning with
-30 to -50 wind chills and promised to blow all day! I'll be the guy with
the frosbit nose and cheeks out there all day!
Gotta Love It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
If a cow laughed would milk come out her nose?
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Duncan Macready" <duncanm@connected.net.nz>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 22 Dec 1998 22:18:20 +1300
Allen wrote
>All you folks out there who live in other climes
>might note that it was -21 this early a.m.
>up here in tropical Montana.
>Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its
>too damn cold to live in Montana.
Allen ,you are welcome to come to Auckland New Zealand to warm up,we were at
30 centigrade today about 80% humidity , We are haveing a shoot Sunday.
Bring a hat, sunscreen and your swim shorts. We are haveing venison steaks
on the barbacue, bring your own plate.
Regards Cutfinger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Duncan Macready" <duncanm@connected.net.nz>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 22 Dec 1998 22:18:20 +1300
Allen wrote
>All you folks out there who live in other climes
>might note that it was -21 this early a.m.
>up here in tropical Montana.
>Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its
>too damn cold to live in Montana.
Allen ,you are welcome to come to Auckland New Zealand to warm up,we were at
30 centigrade today about 80% humidity , We are haveing a shoot Sunday.
Bring a hat, sunscreen and your swim shorts. We are haveing venison steaks
on the barbacue, bring your own plate.
Regards Cutfinger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim Lindberg <jal@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 22 Dec 1998 08:17:08 -0600
Guess I'll chime in with -10 degrees setting up -25 to -35 wind chills,
makes it a bit brisk. That's the reason people in Wisconsin drink so
much, you put antifreeze in your car right?
Hope all your lodges are warm and safe and have a happy holiday.
Jim
/`- _ Jim Lindberg | Les
Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa
{ . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue | Flambeau Rivere
Voyageurs
\ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light
laughter,
|___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal/ | Until we
next meete. Go Gentle.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 22 Dec 1998 09:05:14 -0700
>On the get tough or die note, I've always enjoyed a really hard winter
>here in Idaho. The number of "For Sale" signs that pop up after a killer
>winter are amazing, as folks limp back to whereever it is they came from.
Then I hope we have a rrrrrrreally cold winter. We want to buy land in the
spring and its ridiculously pricey these days here in NW Montana.
Matt Richards
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 22 Dec 1998 09:17:50 -0700
Only dropped to -15 or so here in NW Montana (we're in the hot part of the
state). Realized my winter boots were dead so I made some mukluks out of
some brain tan buffalo Wes Housler had given me. Went for a walk last night
with just my bare feet inside the mukluks ----- and they were toasty warm.
If they hold up well, I won't be buying any more winter boots.....
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
Date: 22 Dec 1998 11:26:23 -0500
unsubscribe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Terry Landis" <landis1@gte.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mt-man lst: merry Christmas
Date: 22 Dec 1998 19:00:58 -0800
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE2DDD.696FA7A0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01BE2DDD.6978CF60"
------=_NextPart_001_0004_01BE2DDD.6978CF60
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ho the list!
I just wanted to say merry Christmas to every body, and thanks for all the
hard work you've put in on your research so that I might be able to get my
rig right, and start some doins of my own.
p.s. I've included a little ditty I wrote today. I hope I don't make anyone
mad, but hey , they'll get over it sooner or later.
p.s.s. anyone got any good info on 1800-1830 tentage?
ymhs. Terry Landis
Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a buckskiner and
soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest!
------=_NextPart_001_0004_01BE2DDD.6978CF60
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>Untitled Stationery</TITLE>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D680413602-23121998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3>ho the list! </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D680413602-23121998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D680413602-23121998><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D3> I just wanted to say merry =
Christmas to=20
every body, and thanks for all the hard work you've put in on your =
research so=20
that I might be able to get my rig right, and start some doins of my=20
own.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D680413602-23121998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D680413602-23121998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3>p.s. I've included a little ditty I wrote today. I hope I don't =
make=20
anyone mad, but hey , they'll get over it sooner or =
later.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D680413602-23121998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN> <SPAN class=3D680413602-23121998><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D3>p.s.s. anyone got any good info on =
1800-1830=20
tentage?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D680413602-23121998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D680413602-23121998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3>ymhs. Terry Landis</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D5>
<P>Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a =
buckskiner and=20
soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest!=20
<DIV></DIV>
<P></P></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_001_0004_01BE2DDD.6978CF60--
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE2DDD.696FA7A0
Content-Type: application/msword;
name="trappers nightt.doc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="trappers nightt.doc"
0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAIgAAAAAAAAAA
EAAAJAAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACEAAAD/////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////s
pcEARwAJBAAAABK/AAAAAAAAEAAAAAAABAAAmgcAAA4AYmpiao7ZjtkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAJBBYAJRAAAOyzAQDsswEAmgMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD//w8AAAAA
AAAAAAD//w8AAAAAAAAAAAD//w8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAF0AAAAAAL4AAAAAAAAAvgAAAL4A
AAAAAAAAvgAAAAAAAAC+AAAAAAAAAL4AAAAAAAAAvgAAABQAAAAAAAAAAAAAANIAAAAAAAAA0gAA
AAAAAADSAAAAAAAAANIAAAAAAAAA0gAAAAwAAADeAAAADAAAANIAAAAAAAAAFQMAALYAAAD2AAAA
AAAAAPYAAAAAAAAA9gAAAAAAAAD2AAAAAAAAAPYAAAAAAAAA9gAAAAAAAAD2AAAAAAAAAPYAAAAA
AAAA2gIAAAIAAADcAgAAAAAAANwCAAAAAAAA3AIAAAAAAADcAgAAAAAAANwCAAAAAAAA3AIAACQA
AADLAwAA9AEAAL8FAABKAQAAAAMAABUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAvgAAAAAAAAD2AAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD2AAAAAAAAAPYAAAAAAAAA9gAAAAAAAAD2AAAAAAAAAAADAAAAAAAA
IgEAAAAAAAC+AAAAAAAAAL4AAAAAAAAA9gAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPYAAAAAAAAA9gAAAAAAAAAi
AQAAAAAAACIBAAAAAAAAIgEAAAAAAAD2AAAAFgAAAL4AAAAAAAAA9gAAAAAAAAC+AAAAAAAAAPYA
AAAAAAAA2gIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA0gAAAAAAAADSAAAAAAAAAL4AAAAAAAAAvgAA
AAAAAAC+AAAAAAAAAL4AAAAAAAAA9gAAAAAAAADaAgAAAAAAACIBAAC4AQAAIgEAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAANoCAAAAAAAAvgAAAAAAAAC+AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA2gIAAAAAAAD2AAAAAAAAAOoAAAAMAAAA4OUC0B4u
vgHSAAAAAAAAANIAAAAAAAAADAEAABYAAADaAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAkVR3
YXMgdGhlIG5pZ2h0IGJlZm9yZSBDaHJpc3RtYXMgYW5kIGFsbCByb3VuZCB0aGUgdGVudHMgbm90
IGEgdHJhcHBlciB3YXMgc3RpcnJpbmcgZm9yIG91ciBzbW9rZSBwb2xlcyB3ZXJlIHNwZW50Lg1P
dXIgbW9jcyB3ZXJlIGFsbCBodW5nIGJ5IHRoZSBmaXJlIHdpdGggY2FyZSwgSSBjYW6SdCBiZWxp
ZXZlIHdlkmQgYWxsIGdvbmUgb2ZmIHdpdGggb3V0IGRyeSBwYWlyLg0NIFdoZW4gd2hhdCB0byBt
eSB3b25kZXJpbmcgZXllcyBzaG91bGQgYXBwZWFyPw1BbmQgb2xkIGNydXN0eSB0cmFwcGVyIGNh
cnJ5aW5nIGEgYmlnIGZhdCBkZWVyLiBBIGxpdHRsZSBvbGQgdHJhcHBlciBnbmFybGVkIGxpa2Ug
YSBzdGljay4gSSBrbmV3IGluIGEgbW9tZW50LCBpdCBtdXN0IGJlIG9sZCBNaWNrIQ0NQW5kIG1v
cmUgcmFwaWQgdGhhbiBlYWdsZXMgaGlzIHBhY2tob3JzZSBpbiB0b3csIGhlIHNhaWQgkWNvbWUg
b24gc3R1YmJvcm4gbXVsZS6SDUFzIGhlIGNhbWUgaW50byBjYW1wIGhlIGZyb3duZWQgYXQgb3Vy
IGdydWVsLg0NIEhlIGh1bmcgdXAgdGhhdCBkZWVyIHRocmVlIGZlZXQgb2ZmIHRoZSBncm91bmQs
IGhlIHdhcyBkcmVzc2VkIGFsbCBpbiBmdXIgYW5kIGhpcyBiZWxseSB3YXMgcm91bmQuDUhlIHNw
b2tlIG5vdCBhIHdvcmQgYnV0IHdlbnQgc3RyYWlnaHQgdG8gaGlzIHdvcmssIGZpbGxpbmcgdXAg
dGhlIHN0ZXcgcG90cywgYW5kIGh1bmcgbWVhdCB0byBqZXJrLg1BbmQgbGF5aW5nIGEgZmluZ2Vy
IGFzaWRlIGhpcyBoZWFkLCBncmFiYmVkIHVwIGhpcyBibGFua2V0cyBhbmQgd2VudCBzdHJhaWdo
dCBvZmYgdG8gYmVkLg1CdXQgSSBoZWFyZCBoaW0gZXhjbGFpbSBhcyBoZSB0dXJuZWQgaW4gZm9y
IHRoZSBuaWdodCwNVGhlcmWScyB2aXR0bGVzIGZvciBhbGwgYW5kIHRvIGFsbCBhIGdvb2Qgbmln
aHQhDQ0NDQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAHQE
AACaBwAA/QAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEQ0oUAAIABAAAdAQA
ANcEAADYBAAABwUAAIsFAACMBQAA3gUAAAwGAAANBgAAcQYAANUGAAAvBwAAZgcAAJcHAACYBwAA
mQcAAJoHAAD9AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA+wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPsAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD7AAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAA+wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPsAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD7AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA+wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPsA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAD7AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA+wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPsAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD7AAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAA+wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPsAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD7AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA+wAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAAABDwAAEQAEAAB0BAAA
1wQAANgEAAAHBQAAiwUAAIwFAADeBQAADAYAAA0GAABxBgAA1QYAAC8HAABmBwAAlwcAAJgHAACZ
BwAAmgcAAP0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwIPAAARIwAmUAoBHTAC
H7DAISCwgBYhsKAFIrCgBSOQgAQkkIAEJbAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASABAACgABAFsA
DwACAAAAAAAAACQAAEDx/wIAJAAAAAYATgBvAHIAbQBhAGwAAAACAAAABABtSAkEAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAPABBQPL/oQA8AAAAFgBEAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0ACAAUABhAHIAYQBnAHIAYQBwAGgA
IABGAG8AbgB0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACoAQkABAPIAKgAAAAkAQgBvAGQAeQAgAFQAZQB4AHQAAAAC
AA8ABABDSiQAAAAAAJoDAAAEAAAQAAAAAP////8ABAAAmgcAAAUAAAAABAAAmgcAAAYAAAAABAAA
mgcAAAcAAAAAAAAAwgIAAMYCAACcAwAABwAEAAcAAAAAAHECAADUAgAAnAMAAAcABAAHAP//BgAA
AA8AVABlAHIAcgB5ACAATAAuACAATABhAG4AZABpAHMAMgBDADoAXABXAEkATgBEAE8AVwBTAFwA
VABFAE0AUABcAEEAdQB0AG8AUgBlAGMAbwB2AGUAcgB5ACAAcwBhAHYAZQAgAG8AZgAgAEQAbwBj
AHUAbQBlAG4AdAAyAC4AYQBzAGQADwBUAGUAcgByAHkAIABMAC4AIABMAGEAbgBkAGkAcwA6AEMA
OgBcAFcASQBOAEQATwBXAFMAXABQAHIAbwBmAGkAbABlAHMAXAB0AGUAcgByAHkAXABNAHkAIABE
AG8AYwB1AG0AZQBuAHQAcwBcAHQAcgBhAHAAcABlAHIAcwAgAG4AaQBnAGgAdAB0AC4AZABvAGMA
DwBUAGUAcgByAHkAIABMAC4AIABMAGEAbgBkAGkAcwA6AEMAOgBcAFcASQBOAEQATwBXAFMAXABQ
AHIAbwBmAGkAbABlAHMAXAB0AGUAcgByAHkAXABNAHkAIABEAG8AYwB1AG0AZQBuAHQAcwBcAHQA
cgBhAHAAcABlAHIAcwAgAG4AaQBnAGgAdAB0AC4AZABvAGMA/0ABgAEAwgIAAMICAACki3QAAQAB
AMICAAAAAAAAvgIAAAAAAAACEAAAAAAAAACaAwAAQAAACABAAAADAAAARxaQAQAAAgIGAwUEBQID
BAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAAAFQAaQBtAGUAcwAgAE4AZQB3ACAAUgBvAG0AYQBuAAAA
NRaQAQIABQUBAgEHBgIFBwAAAAAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAFMAeQBtAGIAbwBsAAAAMyaQ
AQAAAgsGBAICAgICBAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAAAEEAcgBpAGEAbAAAACIABAAxCIkY
AADQAgAAaAEAAAAAsbQsRrG0LEYusyxGAgAAAAAAhQAAAPgCAAABAAEAAAAEAAMQBgAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAhAwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAClBsAHtAC0
AIAAEjAAABAAGQBkAAAAGQAAAKUDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAADZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgAAAAAA//8SAAAAAAAAAHIAGCBUAHcAYQBz
ACAAdABoAGUAIABuAGkAZwBoAHQAIABiAGUAZgBvAHIAZQAgAEMAaAByAGkAcwB0AG0AYQBzACAA
YQBuAGQAIABhAGwAbAAgAHIAbwB1AG4AZAAgAHQAaABlACAAdABlAG4AdABzACAAbgBvAHQAIABh
ACAAdAByAGEAcABwAGUAcgAgAHcAYQBzACAAcwB0AGkAcgByAGkAbgBnACAAZgBvAHIAIABvAHUA
cgAgAHMAbQBvAGsAZQAgAHAAbwBsAGUAcwAgAHcAZQByAGUAIABzAHAAZQBuAHQAAAAAAAAADwBU
AGUAcgByAHkAIABMAC4AIABMAGEAbgBkAGkAcwAPAFQAZQByAHIAeQAgAEwALgAgAEwAYQBuAGQA
aQBzAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA/v8AAAQAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAQAAAOCFn/L5T2gQq5EIACsns9kwAAAA5AEAABEAAAABAAAAkAAAAAIAAACYAAAAAwAA
ABQBAAAEAAAAIAEAAAUAAAA4AQAABwAAAEQBAAAIAAAAVAEAAAkAAABsAQAAEgAAAHgBAAAKAAAA
lAEAAAsAAACgAQAADAAAAKwBAAANAAAAuAEAAA4AAADEAQAADwAAAMwBAAAQAAAA1AEAABMAAADc
AQAAAgAAAOQEAAAeAAAAcwAAAJFUd2FzIHRoZSBuaWdodCBiZWZvcmUgQ2hyaXN0bWFzIGFuZCBh
bGwgcm91bmQgdGhlIHRlbnRzIG5vdCBhIHRyYXBwZXIgd2FzIHN0aXJyaW5nIGZvciBvdXIgc21v
a2UgcG9sZXMgd2VyZSBzcGVudAAAHgAAAAEAAAAAVHdhHgAAABAAAABUZXJyeSBMLiBMYW5kaXMA
HgAAAAEAAAAAZXJyHgAAAAcAAABOb3JtYWwALh4AAAAQAAAAVGVycnkgTC4gTGFuZGlzAB4AAAAC
AAAAMgBych4AAAATAAAATWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgOC4wAG9AAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAALTzFOwt
vgFAAAAAAPbXyh4uvgFAAAAAAPbXyh4uvgEDAAAAAQAAAAMAAACFAAAAAwAAAPgCAAADAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP7/AAAEAAIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIA
AAAC1c3VnC4bEJOXCAArLPmuRAAAAAXVzdWcLhsQk5cIACss+a6gAQAAXAEAAAwAAAABAAAAaAAA
AA8AAABwAAAABQAAAHwAAAAGAAAAhAAAABEAAACMAAAAFwAAAJQAAAALAAAAnAAAABAAAACkAAAA
EwAAAKwAAAAWAAAAtAAAAA0AAAC8AAAADAAAADsBAAACAAAA5AQAAB4AAAACAAAAIAAgAAMAAAAG
AAAAAwAAAAEAAAADAAAApQMAAAMAAADoEAgACwAAAAAAAAALAAAAAAAAAAsAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAA
AAAeEAAAAQAAAHMAAACRVHdhcyB0aGUgbmlnaHQgYmVmb3JlIENocmlzdG1hcyBhbmQgYWxsIHJv
dW5kIHRoZSB0ZW50cyBub3QgYSB0cmFwcGVyIHdhcyBzdGlycmluZyBmb3Igb3VyIHNtb2tlIHBv
bGVzIHdlcmUgc3BlbnQADBAAAAIAAAAeAAAABgAAAFRpdGxlAAMAAAABAAAAAAAAmAAAAAMAAAAA
AAAAIAAAAAEAAAA2AAAAAgAAAD4AAAABAAAAAgAAAAoAAABfUElEX0dVSUQAAgAAAOQEAABBAAAA
TgAAAHsAMAAwADgARQBDADgAQQA2AC0AOQA5ADkANQAtADEAMQBEADIALQBBAEEANwBCAC0ANAA0
ADQANQA1ADMANQA0ADAAMAAwADAAfQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAgAAAAMAAAAEAAAABQAAAAYAAAAHAAAACAAAAP7/
//8KAAAACwAAAAwAAAANAAAADgAAAA8AAAAQAAAA/v///xIAAAATAAAAFAAAABUAAAAWAAAAFwAA
ABgAAAD+////GgAAABsAAAAcAAAAHQAAAB4AAAAfAAAAIAAAAP7////9////IwAAAP7////+////
/v//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/////////////////////////////1IAbwBvAHQAIABFAG4AdAByAHkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAYQUAoFCtRACorkAAcDBEAEwwRAAWAAUB//////////8DAAAABgkCAAAAAADAAAAA
AAAARgAAAACg4biO7i2+AeBPG9AeLr4BJQAAAIAAAAAAAAAAMQBUAGEAYgBsAGUAAAAAAA4AAAAB
AAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA0QQAoA4AAgH/////BQAAAP//
//8gAG4AaQBnAGgAdAB0AHRvcAAqLioAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJAAAAABAAAAAAAABXAG8AcgBk
AEQAbwBjAHUAbQBlAG4AdAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
GgACAQEAAAD//////////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAl
EAAAAAAAAAUAUwB1AG0AbQBhAHIAeQBJAG4AZgBvAHIAbQBhAHQAaQBvAG4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAoAAIBAgAAAAQAAAD/////IABuAGkAZwBoAHQAdAAgla0DAKBQrUQAPABA
AOo6aRCi2AgAEQAAAAAQAAA6XAAABQBEAG8AYwB1AG0AZQBuAHQAUwB1AG0AbQBhAHIAeQBJAG4A
ZgBvAHIAbQBhAHQAaQBvAG4AAAAAAAAAAAAAADgAAgH///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAANQAAoLCxQAAcAEAA6jppEKLYCAAZAAAAABAAADpcAAABAEMAbwBtAHAATwBiAGoAAABEAE4A
APAUAB8P4E/QIOo6aRCi2AgAKzAwnRkAI0M6XAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEgACAP//////////////
/7QQgFdpbmRvd3MAABAzRABOAADwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABqAAAAFDREANA1RAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA/v///wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABQEAoDwAQABMRUEA4EyXcPBMl3AA
AAAA////////////////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP7///8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAE0A
AKAsAEAAgLRAAOo6aRCi2AgAKzAwnRkAI0M6XAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEe4XADEAAAAAAGIk
2LQQgFdpbmRvd3MAAAAAAAD////////////////qOmkQotgIACswMJ0ZACNDOlwAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAABHuFwAxAAAAAABiJNgBAAAA/v//////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/////////////////////////wEA/v8DCgAA/////wYJAgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYYAAAATWljcm9z
b2Z0IFdvcmQgRG9jdW1lbnQACgAAAE1TV29yZERvYwAQAAAAV29yZC5Eb2N1bWVudC44APQ5snEA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE2DDD.696FA7A0--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Kim E Miller <kimmille@micron.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan_List: unsubscribe
Date: 22 Dec 1998 20:17:06 -0600
UNSUBSCRIBE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan_List: unsubscribe
Date: 22 Dec 1998 20:48:47 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Kim E Miller wrote:
> UNSUBSCRIBE
Kim
Send your administrative commands to majordomo@xmission.com
The command would be
unsubscribe hist_text kimmille@micron.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: MtMan-List: holidays
Date: 23 Dec 1998 11:19:57 -0500
I'll be away for awhile. Wishing all of you the Merriest of Merry.
Your most humble and obedient servant,
mdwatts@naxs.com
HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
M. D. Watts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@onr.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: holidays
Date: 23 Dec 1998 11:37:28 -0600
Humbug!! Are there no prisons? Are the workhouses closed?
Oh well, I guess we shall just continue our travels down historical trails
as the new year greets us, and leave the mean-spirited Scrooges of this life
to their own ill will.
God Bless us each and everyone.
From Texas, Where Men are Men--and drink their water from Hoof-prints; Women
can be Governor--briefly; and now, Praise the LORD, a place where we are
finally getting some honestly cold weather so needed to put the vermin and
critters that bite into an even meaner mood come warmup--those that survive.
Merry Christmas. Pablo the Ever Humble
-----Original Message-----
<rstat@naxs.com>; Randy <randyr@naxs.com>; Pat <loonyhiker@pipeline.com>;
MtMan-List <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>; Monty <montyv@naxs.com>; Matt
<mcbolick@naxs.com>; Marcheta <Darnell.Marcheta@hap.arnold.af.mil>; Larry
<lmorgan@i-55.com>; Kathy <kborror@abingdon.com>; JMongle
<jmongle@naxs.com>; Greg <gsnodgrass@fhu.edu>; David <dmb@naxs.com>; Bill
<bbrooks@ligon.landstar.com>; Al <albradley@naxs.com>
>I'll be away for awhile. Wishing all of you the Merriest of Merry.
>Your most humble and obedient servant,
>mdwatts@naxs.com
>HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
>M. D. Watts
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Don Neighbors <neigh@marsaglia.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:27:34 -0600
I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are
there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted
to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:29:20 -0500
HEY!!! I NEVER thought about using the list to find WIMMIN'S...Damn fine
idea!!
You guys are gonna tell Gwen,..... ain'tcha? never mind..
Dennis
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----
>I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are
>there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted
>to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Colleen" <admgilb@amber.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:42:09 -0500
> I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are
> there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted
> to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors
Heaven's No!!!! All women don't hate to rendezvoo!!!!! Best thing
I've ever done!!!! Just hang in there....you'll find you a
partner!!! And be better for it!
Colleen
(Many Ducks)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Colleen" <admgilb@amber.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:42:47 -0500
> You guys are gonna tell Gwen,..... ain'tcha? never mind..
Dennis......shame on you!!!! :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:57:30 -0500
Are you hittin' on me Colleen??
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----
>
>> You guys are gonna tell Gwen,..... ain'tcha? never mind..
>
>Dennis......shame on you!!!! :-)
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Colleen" <admgilb@amber.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:59:17 -0500
> Are you hittin' on me Colleen??
>
> D
Heaven's no.....do think you're an alright guy, though!!!!
C
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:02:16 -0500
Thank you...
See, told ya! :-)
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----
>
>> Are you hittin' on me Colleen??
>>
>> D
>
>Heaven's no.....do think you're an alright guy, though!!!!
>
>C
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:11:03 -0500
I know I do. Been doing it a long time and met some mighty fine single and
married men who's ladies do like it.
Hey, I have two tipis, a marquee, and one wedge....and one of the best
beaders in the US. Don't like to brain tan though.
Linda Holley
Don Neighbors wrote:
> I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are
> there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted
> to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Verlin Kinsey" <verlinkinsey@hotmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cool weather
Date: 23 Dec 1998 12:49:25 PST
Matt,
If that is all you were wearing then I would assume that your feet were
toasty by comparison.<VBG>
Everyone have a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Verlin
In slightly warmer (+16) Kansas
<snip?
Went for a walk last night
with just my bare feet inside the mukluks ----- and they were toasty
warm.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:57:07 EST
I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really
amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a Mountain
Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for
women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk
about???
DON
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:04:21 -0500
Buy a sense of humor, Sir...
Dennis Miles
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----
>I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really
>amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a Mountain
>Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for
>women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk
>about???
>DON
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 13:48:55 +0000
Don, I met my wife at a Rendevous. She was a day visitor. My wood
stove, and I, captured her heart during a cold January Voo in the Cal.
Mtns.. We honeymooned at rendezvous.. She was my canoe partner on a 5
day paddle on the Upper Missouri River, primitive. Good luck in your
search, they are out there. Hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 13:54:53 +0000
LSP-long spanish pause hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:38:29 EST
Randy - That's great but I was not intending to offend only amazed as I didn't
know this was also a chat line!
To the other responses - I do have a sense of humor.
DON
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 13:41:29 -0800
The quality of discourse on this line is subject to variation, coming from a
bunch of reprobates "who do not scruple to break wind in publick", but it is
the holidays and we all seem to be getting a little frivolous -- Ho Ho Ho
and all. We'll get back to our usual discussions and occasional flame wars
after the break, I'm sure. Meanwhile, welcome aboard, stay warm, and don't
be afraid to use that delete control on threads outside your area of
interest.
Best Regards
Pat Quilter
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 12:57 PM
I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really
amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a Mountain
Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for
women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk
about???
DON
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:52:30 -0600
Don
Hang around for a few more tens of days and you will see Mountain Man =
stuff aplenty. Access Dean's home page and click on the E-mail =
discussion archives and you will see several years of such stuff. Many =
of us on this list consider many of the others here to be like a second =
family and we occasionaly stray from the straight and narrow a little. =
I don't think that is too much to bear, especially during bad weather. =
I am interested in what effects my friends, especially if it is -56 wind =
chill. I think a few such posts tend to humanize the contact we have =
with the others on the list. Most of us have never met most of the =
others here and these small peeks into their lives make them more =
familar to us. I can visualize Eldon Ayres fighting bitter Montana =
winds to put up 400 feet of snow fence to keep his lane clear and to =
enable him and his family to go to town from time to time. I can just =
about see the little icicles hanging from his moustache and the frost on =
his eyebrows. I also know that he and many others on this list are =
formidable mountain men with an incredible wealth of knowledge that they =
will share with anybody in due time. =20
Hang with us, share your knowledge, and absorb the knowledge of others. =
Don't be shy....throw out a subject. Any subject.
cordially
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----
>I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am =
really
>amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a =
Mountain
>Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching =
for
>women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk=20
>about???
>DON
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:54:57 -0600
Don
You will need that sense of humor and sometimes a thick skin. Pat's =
reference to flame wars should give you a clue. =20
Lanney
-----Original Message-----
>Randy - That's great but I was not intending to offend only amazed as I =
didn't
>know this was also a chat line!
>To the other responses - I do have a sense of humor.
>DON
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 13:56:22 -0800
Don,
If you have something interesting to say, why go ahead and say it. We will be
glad to talk to you on what ever is troubling you. This is a list of Brothers
and Friends. Be a friend and chill out. I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Dennis Miles wrote:
> Buy a sense of humor, Sir...
>
> Dennis Miles
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DPOCTALC@aol.com <DPOCTALC@aol.com>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:17 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: amazed
>
> >I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really
> >amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a Mountain
> >Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for
> >women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk
> >about???
> >DON
> >
> >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:06:16 -0800
Roger Lahti wrote:
> Don,
>
> If you have something interesting to say, why go ahead and say it. We will be
> glad to talk to you on what ever is troubling you. This is a list of Brothers
> and Friends. Be a friend and chill out. I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
Don, I should add that the above was sent with all respect and cordiality too. No
offense intended. I remain......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
> Dennis Miles wrote:
>
> > Buy a sense of humor, Sir...
> >
> > Dennis Miles
> >
> > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
> > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DPOCTALC@aol.com <DPOCTALC@aol.com>
> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> > Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:17 PM
> > Subject: MtMan-List: amazed
> >
> > >I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really
> > >amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a Mountain
> > >Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for
> > >women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk
> > >about???
> > >DON
> > >
> > >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: amazing
Date: 23 Dec 1998 17:49:05 EST
Thanks to you all for the responses - I got on this list because of similar
interests.
Thanks Hardtack ( what is a Long Spanish Pause ? ), Randy, Pat, Lanney and
Capt. Lahti.
Question: when Lewis and Clark spent five days at canoe camp near Orofino,
Idaho, the Indians there showed the Corps how to burn out the canoes as this
was a faster process then hacking away at them. I know the burning process
involved water to cool the canoe/tree but how was
all this done and what kind of trees were the best to use?
Does anyone have an answer?
Thanks
Foot in his mouth Don
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing
Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:07:54 -0800
Don,
A couple years ago the "boys" in that area made quit a spring project of turning
out several dug-out canoes for a recreation of L and C's trip on down the
Clearwater from that location. They had a boat yard set up in Lewiston and when
the canoes were done, took them up near Orofino to launch. I and the wife
watched them going down stream the Sat. after the Viapon Park Western broke up,
on our way home. I know that Vern Illi was involved and Lee Newbill may have
some insight too. In Lewiston, I watched them use axes and big augers to take
wood out of what they called Yellow Pine though it may have been Ponderosa. They
also were using fire to burn some of the wood away after boring some serious
holes down into the logs. I don't recall seeing them needing to use any water
for the operation and from my experience playing with fire as a fireman I don't
see it as being needed. I would be curious where you got that idea from. If Vern
and Lee are on line maybe they will wade in? I remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
DPOCTALC@aol.com wrote:
> Thanks to you all for the responses - I got on this list because of similar
> interests.
> Thanks Hardtack ( what is a Long Spanish Pause ? ), Randy, Pat, Lanney and
> Capt. Lahti.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing
Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:54:48 +0000
Don, The corps of discovery made the canoes out of Ponderosa Pine. I
believe that cotton wood is prefered, but it was not growing at Canoe
Camp. The trees were green. A small fire was built, and monitered, then
coals were moved to allow chopping with axe. I'm not sure were the water
came in. A Spanish Pause is slang for 'taking a breather'. It has been
suggested on this list to take a Spanish Pause before replying to a
message, so as to not say something one may regret later. It's like
counting to ten... The others provided good responses to your comment.
I thought the comment about the buffalo foot wear was right up this
lists alley. We are all friends here, There is lots of good info. flying
around, as well as friendly chat. Welcome to the list, I look forward to
swapping info. with you in the future, as well as friendly chat. Take
Care, Hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:10:57 -0700
Dennis is a legend in his own mind. Only thinking out loud Bud, keep making
toad stickers.
YF&B
Buck
__________________
-----Original Message-----
>Buy a sense of humor, Sir...
>
>Dennis Miles
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: DPOCTALC@aol.com <DPOCTALC@aol.com>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:17 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: amazed
>
>
>>I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really
>>amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a
Mountain
>>Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for
>>women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk
>>about???
>>DON
>>
>>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:15:03 -0500
Hey Buck..
:-ppppppppppppp!!!!
YF&B
Dennis
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----
>Dennis is a legend in his own mind. Only thinking out loud Bud, keep making
>toad stickers.
>YF&B
>Buck
>__________________
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 2:05 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
>
>
>>Buy a sense of humor, Sir...
>>
>>Dennis Miles
>>
>> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: DPOCTALC@aol.com <DPOCTALC@aol.com>
>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:17 PM
>>Subject: MtMan-List: amazed
>>
>>
>>>I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really
>>>amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a
>Mountain
>>>Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching
for
>>>women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk
>>>about???
>>>DON
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:15:31 -0700
Linda,
Send Don a picture of the marquee, and wedge, bead work would also help.
Only kidding, have a Happy holiday.
Buck
______________-
-----Original Message-----
>I know I do. Been doing it a long time and met some mighty fine single and
>married men who's ladies do like it.
>Hey, I have two tipis, a marquee, and one wedge....and one of the best
>beaders in the US. Don't like to brain tan though.
>
>Linda Holley
>
>Don Neighbors wrote:
>
>> I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are
>> there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted
>> to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:17:39 EST
hey don, maybe a trip to west yellowstone so you can chill? -56 should do
it!!! LOL you got here just in time for the holiday hoohaws. this list will
give you more historical information that you ever thought possible. and by-
the-way, rocky mountain men exchanged holiday greetings and discussed how to
keep their feet warm, find women and other BS. glad you're here, and you're
first question shows that you're going to be a valuable member of the list.
happy holidays to you and yours. Barney P. Fife
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:20:05 -0700
NO No no, not on my toad stickers, I want them to hold an edge.
YF&B
Buck
___________
-----Original Message-----
>Hey Buck..
>
>:-ppppppppppppp!!!!
>
>YF&B
>
>Dennis
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Barry Conner <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 6:33 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
>
>
>>Dennis is a legend in his own mind. Only thinking out loud Bud, keep
making
>>toad stickers.
>>YF&B
>>Buck
>>__________________
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com>
>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 2:05 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
>>
>>
>>>Buy a sense of humor, Sir...
>>>
>>>Dennis Miles
>>>
>>> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: DPOCTALC@aol.com <DPOCTALC@aol.com>
>>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>>>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:17 PM
>>>Subject: MtMan-List: amazed
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am
really
>>>>amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a
>>Mountain
>>>>Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching
>for
>>>>women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk
>>>>about???
>>>>DON
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: canoes
Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:22:45 EST
Thanks Capt. Lahti' and Hardtack
I heard that the Indians would cool down the fires/coals with water when the
burning was all done so they could control what they wanted burned!
Does that make sense?
DON
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:26:01 EST
Thanks Barney
A few bumps and bruises along the way never hurt...to much.
DON
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing
Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:28:33 -0700
List members,
I have tried cottonwood for a dugout and I think Wes Housler told me was
using the same wood, as the wood dried it has started to get some pretty
healthy cracks. Wes was going to try and seal his to prevent this ? Crosby
Brown at Ft. Charette in IL has an original dugout and keeps it in the water
most of the time, sinks it during the winter to prevent cracking, not sure
what the wood is.
Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a problem of
cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to hold a 17" dugout unless
its cut in half !!!!!!)
Buck
___________________
-----Original Message-----
>Don, The corps of discovery made the canoes out of Ponderosa Pine. I
>believe that cotton wood is prefered, but it was not growing at Canoe
>Camp. The trees were green. A small fire was built, and monitered, then
>coals were moved to allow chopping with axe. I'm not sure were the water
>came in. A Spanish Pause is slang for 'taking a breather'. It has been
>suggested on this list to take a Spanish Pause before replying to a
>message, so as to not say something one may regret later. It's like
>counting to ten... The others provided good responses to your comment.
> I thought the comment about the buffalo foot wear was right up this
>lists alley. We are all friends here, There is lots of good info. flying
>around, as well as friendly chat. Welcome to the list, I look forward to
>swapping info. with you in the future, as well as friendly chat. Take
>Care, Hardtack
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canoes
Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:31:16 EST
Don, I know this isn't directly applicable, but I recently watched a show
about the Amazonian Indians using a centuries only method of burning out
canoes, and they DID use water to stop burning when it got too deep into the
wood, and also to solidify the burned areas. To start, they would hack a
groove into the top of a log, then pour coals into the groove and let them
burn out the green wood,clean out the ash and add more coals when those
cooled, etc etc, until they approached the depth they wanted.
Then they would scrape out the final interior shape with knives and sticks.
Hope this is of some help. Barney P. Fife
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing(dugouts)
Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:43:13 EST
In a message dated 98-12-23 18:32:42 EST, you write:
> Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a problem of
> cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to hold a 17" dugout unless
> its cut in half !!!!!!)
In your case Buck, I would suggest a teak canoe. Then you wouldn't have to
sink it to keep it wet.
One often finds cottonwoods along the river that have fallen down for one
reason or another, and which are washed up on the bank. Since it is the
drying and shrinking process that causes the cracks, wouldn't it make sense to
use an already seasoned log which has been dried, but has not yet started to
rot. On the other hand, Louisiana pirogues are hacked from some type of
native wood down there. Perhaps we could learn from that technology.
Dave Kanger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canoes
Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:47:06 -0700
A real typical way to do controlled burns on canoes, bowls or anything was
to apply a wet mud pack to areas you didn't want to burn at that moment.
Maybe this is where you are getting the water thing from.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canoes
Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:54:22 EST
Thanks Barney
I was aware of the burning and cooling process but now am thinking that the
Indians or whoever submersed the entire canoe into the water rather then
pouring water onto the burned area, so as Buck mentioned to not only stop the
burning but to keep the canoe from cracking. Lewis and Clark did this when
they cached their canoes as they headed into the Bitterroots and the Lolo
Trail.
Thanks for the input
DON
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing(dugouts)
Date: 23 Dec 1998 17:05:23 -0700
Thanks Dave,
I believe Freddie Harris is still in the wood business, gunstocks and wide
board flooring, don't have his number but Jack Gardner will (hunting pals).
I have gotten native wood paddles from Freddie that he cut in Mississippi or
a near by southern state, will let you know if I have any luck.
How's everyone doing back there on the Missouri and how's the club doing,
good group.
Thanks again and Happy Holidays.
Buck
________________
-----Original Message-----
>In a message dated 98-12-23 18:32:42 EST, you write:
>> Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a problem of
>> cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to hold a 17" dugout
unless
>> its cut in half !!!!!!)
>
>In your case Buck, I would suggest a teak canoe. Then you wouldn't have to
>sink it to keep it wet.
>
>One often finds cottonwoods along the river that have fallen down for one
>reason or another, and which are washed up on the bank. Since it is the
>drying and shrinking process that causes the cracks, wouldn't it make sense
to
>use an already seasoned log which has been dried, but has not yet started
to
>rot. On the other hand, Louisiana pirogues are hacked from some type of
>native wood down there. Perhaps we could learn from that technology.
>
>Dave Kanger
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: mm archive
Date: 23 Dec 1998 19:24:38 EST
Thanks to who ever recommend the MM Discussion List Archives.
What a wealth of information!
DON
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mm archive
Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:40:13 -0600
That was me. You're welcome. A person could spend many winter nights =
lost in those files. Did you check the journals and trading manifests =
yet? Outrageous!!
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
rat@htcomp.net
-----Original Message-----
>Thanks to who ever recommend the MM Discussion List Archives.
>What a wealth of information!
>DON
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mm archive
Date: 23 Dec 1998 19:59:16 EST
Hey Lanney,
I'll check the journals and the trade manifests tonight...while I warm my feet
by the fire
DON
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: a gift
Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:05:50 -0700
--========================_65544748==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear sirs,
I would like a 20 ft dugout canoe for christmas
Thank you in advance
Joe
Here is a photo that is seasonally funny
--========================_65544748==_
Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Santa_killed.jpg"
; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-creator="4A565752"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Santa_killed.jpg"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64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--========================_65544748==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
--========================_65544748==_--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mm archive
Date: 23 Dec 1998 19:16:34 -0600
See there, you had a sense of humor all along. That danged ol' Dennis =
Miles has sniffed way too much coal smoke. But he is somebody to call =
if you need a little smithy work done. Check out the website at =
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
Lanney
-----Original Message-----
>Hey Lanney,
>I'll check the journals and the trade manifests tonight...while I warm =
my feet
>by the fire
>DON
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:22:16 -0500
If I could figure a way of putting a picture on here I would.
Merry Xmas "you All" from the deep south. I will be camping in my tipi for
that good day in warm weather, compared to all of you.
Linda Holley
Barry Conner wrote:
> Linda,
>
> Send Don a picture of the marquee, and wedge, bead work would also help.
> Only kidding, have a Happy holiday.
>
> Buck
> ______________-
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 1:03 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
>
> >I know I do. Been doing it a long time and met some mighty fine single and
> >married men who's ladies do like it.
> >Hey, I have two tipis, a marquee, and one wedge....and one of the best
> >beaders in the US. Don't like to brain tan though.
> >
> >Linda Holley
> >
> >Don Neighbors wrote:
> >
> >> I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are
> >> there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted
> >> to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors
> >
> >
> >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: MtMan-List: >>AMAZING<<
Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:19:54 -0500
Don,
No hard feelin's? I say just what I think, when I think it... Few exceptions
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Gail Carbiener" <carbg@cmc.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Char cloth
Date: 23 Dec 1998 17:45:25 -0800
Happy hoildays to all..........
Following advice from this list, I made some Char cloth several months ago.
On my first, second and third weeks it worked great. Caught the spark and
off it went.
However, since that time it must have absorbed moisture cause I can lay
sparks galore on it with no action! My question is.... how in the dickens
did the mountain men keep the stuff dry when they were in the winter snow,
rain, etc. What kind of container did they have or did they re-dry it from
time to time?
Gail Carbiener
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: >>AMAZING<<
Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:46:35 EST
Of course no hard feelings, after all I was the one who put his foot in his
mouth, not you guys.
Thanks Dennis, Merry Christmas
We'll talk again?
DON
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: >>AMAZING<<
Date: 23 Dec 1998 21:08:16 -0500
Eventually..Don.. Although there are a few out there that would advise agin
it...
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----
>Of course no hard feelings, after all I was the one who put his foot in his
>mouth, not you guys.
>Thanks Dennis, Merry Christmas
>We'll talk again?
>DON
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canoes
Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:33:43 -0800
DPOCTALC@aol.com wrote:
> Thanks Capt. Lahti' and Hardtack
> I heard that the Indians would cool down the fires/coals with water when the
> burning was all done so they could control what they wanted burned!
> Does that make sense?
> DON
Don,
Makes sense unless you know that it is real hard to get the big logs to burn on
the inside. If you don't want it to burn anymore you just move the fire or
scrape it off/down so it isn't consuming the wood. Hard to figure how to
explain. I guess they could have been sprinkling water here and there to control
the burn but it just didn't seem all that necessary to me. Get your self a big
Ponderosa Pine log and start chopping and burning and let us know how it goes.
I know the coastal indians were using some fine stone hand adz' to remove wood
on their canoes. They would carve the outside shape and then drill holes in to
the center as far as they wanted the hull to be thick. They then carved out the
insides until they hit the holes and then quit carving. Plugged the holes up
with dowels or cedar and finished the plugs off flush and then heat the insides
with water and hot rocks until they could spread the sides a bit. the sides were
held out with thwarts and walla its almost a boat! Sure would like a coastal
indian boat. Can't afford the price of a cedar tree. I remain......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing
Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:38:15 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Roger Lahti wrote:
> A couple years ago the "boys" in that area made quit a spring project of turning
> out several dug-out canoes for a recreation of L and C's trip on down the
> Clearwater from that location.
> If Vern
> and Lee are on line maybe they will wade in? I remain....
hallo
broke my silly arm today so forgive the lack of punctuation
we used ponderosa pines for our dugouts. on the burn vs adze wood
removal, burning is nice if you had few tools and much time. adzes
and six men (read as relays) can turn out a decent dugout in about two
days. we'd probably be faster if we did it more often.
char method was burn, extingish, scrape... burn, etc, etc velly slow.
these dugouts wiegh half a ton or better, so cooling is appplird where
they are being built... no volunteers to haul them to the water just fer a
quick dunk.
of the three dugouts we have made, one was so checked (cracked) that it
was donated for a permanent (dry) display. the other two get used a lot
when summer is here. they are very heavy and don't do rapids well.
is a lot of work to get the finished product.
Regards
Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing
Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:38:36 -0800
Barry Conner wrote:
> Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a problem of
> cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to hold a 17" dugout unless
> its cut in half !!!!!!)
>
> Buck
Buck,
I know that cedar, pine and cyprus all have been used. I think cedar is the
least likely to split if not submerged but you can also fill them with water
which will help. I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
> ___________________
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <randybublitz@juno.com>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:14 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing
>
> >Don, The corps of discovery made the canoes out of Ponderosa Pine. I
> >believe that cotton wood is prefered, but it was not growing at Canoe
> >Camp. The trees were green. A small fire was built, and monitered, then
> >coals were moved to allow chopping with axe. I'm not sure were the water
> >came in. A Spanish Pause is slang for 'taking a breather'. It has been
> >suggested on this list to take a Spanish Pause before replying to a
> >message, so as to not say something one may regret later. It's like
> >counting to ten... The others provided good responses to your comment.
> > I thought the comment about the buffalo foot wear was right up this
> >lists alley. We are all friends here, There is lots of good info. flying
> >around, as well as friendly chat. Welcome to the list, I look forward to
> >swapping info. with you in the future, as well as friendly chat. Take
> >Care, Hardtack
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________
> >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
> >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Subject: MtMan-List: dugouts
Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:45:56 -0800 (PST)
fergot to mention... out up some pics on my webpage of our last effort...
they are under "recreating history", url below
Regards
Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: JW Stephens <johns@primarycolor.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: re: ett-a-what?
Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:45:00 -0800
I would just like to mention, for the benefit of those of us getting the
digest version and/or with a slow internet connection, that the list
works best with "Plain Text" instead of HTML, and no attachments.
Instead of sending an attachment to the list, where it is usually
translated into a lot of useless garbage, which is then multiplied by
the number of recipients on the list, it is generally considered more
useful to move a copy of the file to a publicly accessible site (like an
FTP server) and then put a copy of the URL (or path) to the file into
your e-mail.
On the subject of HTML vs. Plain Text messages: some e-mail clients
default to HTML or "Multi-part MIME" for message formatting and you need
to go into your Preferences or Options dialog and change your settings
to generate Plain Text. Sometimes you can set the formatting
specifically for a recipient, like "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" but
then you need to be sure that you choose the recipient before you start
writing your message.
Yeah, I know ... I'm not the list Mom and all that ... but I enjoy our
little community here and I'd rather wade through greetings, love
letters and weather reports than all of that HTML and file attachment
crap.
If anyone needs help figuring this stuff out feel free to contact me
off-list.
--
JW "LRay" Stephens, Squadron Commander; Lobo Solo Squadron
EPP Technician, Primary Color Systems, Inc., Irvine, CA
...
ICQ# 20564775 "mean people suck"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bill Patterson <notorious_arp@ibm.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tomahawk Target
Date: 22 Dec 1998 18:29:21 -0800
Pine works fine in California.
At scout camp we use Redwood, make sure the wood is not starting to rot,
the hawks quicken the deterioration of the wood.
12 "-18" thick is good
Diameter the answer is bigger is better.
Bill Patterson
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 24 Dec 1998 02:44:12 -0600
>The quality of discourse on this line is subject to variation,
>coming from a bunch of reprobates "who do not scruple to break wind
>in publick", but it is the holidays and we all seem to be getting a
Pat, you got the jist of it but you quoted Mssr.la Priest slightly wrong,so
I'll ask you to see below and feel free to copy it! I'm sure any copyright
is long since expired: its only 300 years old. Fr. Louis was a Recollett
Missionary in the old northwest, He published quite a memoir of his travels
in the Americas,but I have read critique that the truth must have been
spectacular BEFORE he (true MM before there were any!)stretched the truth
nearly beyond belief.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing(dugouts)
Date: 24 Dec 1998 02:44:16 -0600
>> Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a
>>problem of cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to
>>hold a 17" dugout unless its cut in half !!!!!!)
>In your case Buck, I would suggest a teak canoe. Then you wouldn't
>have to sink it to keep it wet.
>One often finds cottonwoods along the river that have fallen down
>for one reason or another, and which are washed up on the bank.
>Since it is the drying and shrinking process that causes the cracks,
>wouldn't it make sense to use an already seasoned log which has
>been dried, but has not yet started to rot. On the other hand,
>Louisiana pirogues are hacked from some type of native wood down
>there. Perhaps we could learn from that technology.
>Dave Kanger
Fellas you are answering your own questions about preserving dugouts!
Keep em wet and the wood does not dryout or crack. I think pirogues in La.
are made from cypress-Ya ain't gonna find that up in the shinin mountains.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk Target
Date: 24 Dec 1998 08:47:26 -0600
I did not see the original post, but it seems that someone asked for a =
reccomendation for a good wood for hawk blocks. Cottonwood is =
excellent, particularly if you have time to let it dry out a little. =
Once it has dried out cottonwood checks, sometimes pretty badly, but it =
is soft enough to take a blade well and is light enough to handle =
easily, especially in the larger diameters that are easily obtainable. =
However, when fresh cut the average sized hawk block weighs about the =
same as a 1962 Ford 390cid V8 engine. Cut 'em now, use 'em later. =20
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----
>Pine works fine in California.
>At scout camp we use Redwood, make sure the wood is not starting to =
rot,
>the hawks quicken the deterioration of the wood.
>12 "-18" thick is good
>Diameter the answer is bigger is better.
>
>Bill Patterson
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women
Date: 24 Dec 1998 10:11:36 EST
In a message dated 98-12-23 14:26:32 EST, you write:
<< Are
there any single women who like to! >>
Off the top of my head I could name 20 or more ranging in age from 19 to 60+.
Most got into it due to ex-husbands, lovers or their parents did it and they
loved it to much to sit around waiting for some man to come sweep them off
their feet and take them off to camp. So don't loss hope you might get luck
like me, my wife and kids want to go camp as much if not more than I do.
Happy holidays and New Year
Your humble servant
C.T. Oakes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: amazed
Date: 24 Dec 1998 09:51:32 -0800
Thanks, Jeff, and here's a rippin' FRAAAPPP for you!
Merry Christmas
Pat Quilter
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 1998 12:44 AM
>The quality of discourse on this line is subject to variation,
>coming from a bunch of reprobates "who do not scruple to break wind
>in publick", but it is the holidays and we all seem to be getting a
Pat, you got the jist of it but you quoted Mssr.la Priest slightly wrong,so
I'll ask you to see below and feel free to copy it! I'm sure any copyright
is long since expired: its only 300 years old. Fr. Louis was a Recollett
Missionary in the old northwest, He published quite a memoir of his travels
in the Americas,but I have read critique that the truth must have been
spectacular BEFORE he (true MM before there were any!)stretched the truth
nearly beyond belief.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <yrrw@cyberramp.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: French Trading Houses in Texas
Date: 24 Dec 1998 12:44:14 -0600
Ok folks I have a question. In 1992 Muzzleloader Mag. had a article on the
French Trade in Texas. It states that there were five French trading houses
near a Wichiatas village that was located on the Sabine River north of
present day Mineola TX. These trading houses were discovered by a Spanish
priest named Father Calahorra in 1760. Since this location is only about 30
mi. from my house I would be really interested to know more about it. I
have been unable to find the exact location of this village. It could be
literally right in my back door. Any info would be appreciated.
Pendleton
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "James C. Zeigler" <slzeigle@earth.sunlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Winter issue T&LR
Date: 24 Dec 1998 12:52:04 -0500
Merry Christmas Everyone:
Was wondering if anyone has received their
winter issue (99 ?) of The Tomahawk & Long Rife. I think I may
have been missed again....Thanks Jim Zeigler
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk Target
Date: 24 Dec 1998 13:15:38 EST
some of us lucky (unfrozen) boys in the western coastal climes have been using
Palm for years, and it works great; won't dull your blade but your hawk will
hold after a throw. Its VERY heavy when first cut, about a hundred pounds a
foot, but dries out rapidly. if you want to create a challange for
yourself, and get ready for any possibility at rendezvous, try some of these
variations:
1. Trail Walk (also known as Hawk Golf)
2. Between narrow branches or trees at target
3. Lying down throw at pesky injun sneaking up while sleeping
4. Swinging target
5. Two hawks, same hand or Two Hawks, two hands
6. Left handed throws, around objects
7. Underhand Throw
8. Opposite from normal handed throw
9. Extreme elevations up and down
10. Vertical string hanging on target must be cut to score
Good luck and Merry Christmas to all. Barney P. Fife
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing(dugouts)
Date: 24 Dec 1998 14:03:07 EST
most of the pirogue boats are made of cypress as well as other dougouts
in the south---there is records of dougouts and pirogue boats lasting
well over 50 years---cypress also makes fine slat canoes--know of some
log cabins made of cypress that are well over 150 years and still in good
condition. it was a commn practice to sink a dougout or pirogue in order
to maintain it's water tight structure and to eleminate cracks in the
wood.
"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684
E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com
On Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:43:13 EST ThisOldFox@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 98-12-23 18:32:42 EST, you write:
>> Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a
>problem of
>> cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to hold a 17"
>dugout unless
>> its cut in half !!!!!!)
>
>In your case Buck, I would suggest a teak canoe. Then you wouldn't
>have to
>sink it to keep it wet.
>
>One often finds cottonwoods along the river that have fallen down for
>one
>reason or another, and which are washed up on the bank. Since it is
>the
>drying and shrinking process that causes the cracks, wouldn't it make
>sense to
>use an already seasoned log which has been dried, but has not yet
>started to
>rot. On the other hand, Louisiana pirogues are hacked from some type
>of
>native wood down there. Perhaps we could learn from that technology.
>
>Dave Kanger
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing(dugouts)
Date: 24 Dec 1998 14:51:35 EST
I'm interested in log cabins myself and have been trying to find good
sources for houses or cabins built with cypress logs like they do in
Louisiana in Cajun ways. I even saw a movie in which a prisoner decided
to help a pregnant woman thru the Mississippi flood....they lived in a
house built of cypress logs and it floated on the water...does anyone
know what I'm talking about? That kind of house is what I'm trying to
get info on.....email me on the list or privately. Thanks!
Ted
TedHart@juno.com
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@onr.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French Trading Houses in Texas
Date: 24 Dec 1998 14:09:02 -0600
Larry:
I was unware that there were five French trading posts in Texas. I will
review Joutel's account (first published in 1713) of La Salle's last voyage
and see if that or any of my later material speaks to the issue.
Spanish Fort, Texas (on the Red River somewhat North and East of Wichita
Falls) was in fact a very large French post, which was successfully operated
for many years. While in my teens, I could still trace out several of the
mud walls of the compound. Artifacts still work their way to the surface,
but now the site is owned by a gentleman from California, and he has cut off
all oportunity to walk the site or even view it closely. I last visited it
in the Spring of 1997. Working from maps prepared by the University of
Texas Archeological Department, I again easily found the primary site (now
viewed across a fence) as well as several nearby Indian sites which were in
existance at the time of the French trading post. The Indian population at
the post and in the nearby villages numbered in the thousands on many
occasions. Interestingly, one camp of Comanches was within a mile of the
post. The thought of them living in peace with other tribes and whites
belies their later exploits.
Near the site of the French post there is the headwaters of what is now a
very small spring fed creek. At the time of the French occupation, the
creek was considerably larger, and much canoe traffic from the Red is
reported. It runs to the NW from the town of Spanish Fort to the Red. To
call Spanish Fort a town is a gross overstatement, as it is now just a few
houses. When my grandfather first took in there in the 50's you could still
see the ruins of a store which had served as a local museum of sorts
dedicated to the French post and the Spanish attempts to destroy it.
Unfortunately all of the artifacts were destroyed when the building burned
and buried the basement many years ago.
My grandfather had a photograph from the store of a Spanish helmet, breast
plate and several daggers and a sword. These had all been found within 15
miles of the site, along the Red. From the reconstruction, it appears that
several Spanish soldiers survived the initial failed attack and "forted up"
only to be cut down by the pursuing Indian allies of the French.
The Spanish were very concerned about this post, and at least two major
expeditions from Bexar were sent to destroy it. On both occasions, the few
French present and their Indian allies (including the Comanches from that
area) routed them before they could get near the post.
I will dig out my material on the site. Next time I am in that area,
perhaps we could visit Spanish Fort and look over the site of the post and
the various Indian village sites.
I will also find out what I can about other French sites and get back to
you.
Best Regards, Paul
-----Original Message-----
>Ok folks I have a question. In 1992 Muzzleloader Mag. had a article on the
>French Trade in Texas. It states that there were five French trading houses
>near a Wichiatas village that was located on the Sabine River north of
>present day Mineola TX. These trading houses were discovered by a Spanish
>priest named Father Calahorra in 1760. Since this location is only about 30
>mi. from my house I would be really interested to know more about it. I
>have been unable to find the exact location of this village. It could be
>literally right in my back door. Any info would be appreciated.
>Pendleton
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "S. Gilbert" <sgilbert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Subject: MtMan-List: Taking the plunge
Date: 24 Dec 1998 15:00:50 -0600 (CST)
Hello the list,
I wanted to say Merry Christmas to you all and thank you. After all the
great advice and helpful pointers on getting started, we have ordered our
lodge. I've been making clothing and mocs and we've been going to
gatherings and trade fairs for the basics. We are starting small, so we
can add as we see the need.
My husband, who was not sure there was a place for him in this adventure,
has started to get very excited about all the possibilities. He is
researching geological surveying in Early America, as he minored in
geology in college. We are on our way!
Happy Holidays to you all!
Susan Gilbert
(Old Hands)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log Cabins
Date: 24 Dec 1998 16:27:56 EST
Ted (and the rest of the list) here are some great links i've found. There
are restorers, builders, suppliers of drawings, plans and materials, etc etc.
If you need direct addresses, please don't hesitate to let me know. Happy
Holidays to all. Enjoy. Barney P. Fife
<A HREF="http://www.country-log-cabins.com/"> Country Log Cabins, A Piece of
American History</A>
<A HREF="http://www.cascadecountrycabins.com/">Cascade Country Cabins</A>
<A HREF="http://www.timberandstone.com/">Timber and Stone</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sissonloghomes.com/">Sisson Log Homes, America's Factory
Direct Log Home Source</A>
<A HREF="http://www.barnagreatlakes.com/">Barna Log Homes, Inc. Michigan</A>
<A HREF="http://www.ccfp.com/home.html">Log Homes And Cabins By Courtney
Custom Forest Products
</A><A HREF="http://www.nplhomes.com/">New Pioneer Log Homes, Inc. - Welcome
</A>
<A HREF="http://www.logcabins.net/">Heartland's Home Page</A>
<A HREF="http://www.loghomezone.com/">Log Homes, pictures, related products
and services in The Log Home Zone</A>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bishnow <bishnows@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
Date: 24 Dec 1998 15:35:56 -0600
Marion D. Watts wrote:
>
> My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm a
> new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is
> appreciated.
> Your most humble and obedient servant,
> mdwatts@naxs.com
> HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com
> M. D. Watts
>
> ----------
> > From: TetonTod@aol.com
> > To: hist_text@xmission.com
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
> > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:43 AM
> >
> > Fellow group members,
> >
> > May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back
> to
> > some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all
> about.
> > Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle
> is
> > best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to
> their
> > Wives and Daughters!
> >
> > For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy
> and
> > respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have
> > dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally
> takes
> > over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back
> > then.
> >
> > As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of
> > historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the
> > comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take
> the
> > time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making
> > personal comments posted to the whole group.
> >
> > Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage,
> traps
> > etc...that's what we're about.
> >
> > Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!!
> >
> > Todd Glover
They got a shot that will cure the etiquette!!
Snakeshot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TetonTod@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Christmas Wishes
Date: 24 Dec 1998 20:01:57 EST
Friends,
It's been another great year on the list. Here's lookin forward to another!
Merry Christmas to all and a Healthy and Happy New Year!
Todd Glover
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Frank <Buckskinner@gbis.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Holiday Greetings!
Date: 24 Dec 1998 18:56:03 -0800
--------------B7190437C36B9BAE261ED503
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From my lodge to yours...
Merry Christmas!
As we celebrate the birth of our savior and give our gifts to family and
friends may we pause to remember the greatest gift of all.
God gave His only Son so that we could once again have a relationship
with Him!
I wish each and every one who reads this list that very same "greatest
gift of all"...I wish you Jesus.
Grace and peace, Medicine Bear
--------------B7190437C36B9BAE261ED503
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<font color="#009900">From my lodge to yours...</font>
<br><font face="Old English"><font color="#FF0000"><font size=+4>Merry
Christmas!</font></font></font>
<br><font face="Graphite Light"><font color="#3333FF"><font size=+1>As
we celebrate the birth of our savior and give our gifts to family and friends
may we pause to remember the greatest gift of all.</font></font></font>
<br><font face="Graphite Light"><font color="#3333FF"><font size=+1>God
gave His only Son so that we could once again have a relationship with
Him!</font></font></font><font face="Graphite Light"><font color="#3333FF"><font size=+1></font></font></font>
<p><font face="Graphite Light"><font color="#993366"><font size=+1>I wish
each and every one who reads this list that very same "greatest gift of
all"...I wish you Jesus.</font></font></font><font face="Graphite Light"><font color="#993366"><font size=+1></font></font></font>
<p><font face="Graphite Light"><font color="#666666"><font size=+1>Grace
and peace, Medicine Bear</font></font></font></html>
--------------B7190437C36B9BAE261ED503--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Terry Venden <tvenden@etex.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Holiday Greetings
Date: 24 Dec 1998 21:47:27 -0600
--------------D753DEF0E1E058A0C2426C80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I too would like to wish every one on this History List the best of
holiday spirits and a healthy and prosperous new Year. I truly enjoy
all the information that i receive from you all. I'm in the hopes of
meeting many of you as our paths cross on this earth journey. Keep up
the great work.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Terry & Debbie Venden (Medicine Bear & Doe Eyes)
Two Wolves Trading Co.
Northeast Texas.
--------------D753DEF0E1E058A0C2426C80
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
I too would like to wish every one on this History List the best of holiday
spirits and a healthy and prosperous new Year. I truly enjoy all
the information that i receive from you all. I'm in the hopes of
meeting many of you as our paths cross on this earth journey. Keep
up the great work.
<center>
<p><b><font color="#FF0000"><font size=+2>Merry Christmas and a Happy New
Year.</font></font></b>
<p>Terry & Debbie Venden (Medicine Bear & Doe Eyes)
<br>Two Wolves Trading Co.
<br>Northeast Texas.</center>
</html>
--------------D753DEF0E1E058A0C2426C80--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Holiday Greetings!
Date: 24 Dec 1998 23:13:10 -0500
Frank wrote:
>
> From my lodge to yours...
> Merry Christmas!
> As we celebrate the birth of our savior and give our gifts to family
> and friends may we pause to remember the greatest gift of all.
> God gave His only Son so that we could once again have a
> relationship with Him!
>
> I wish each and every one who reads this list that very same
> "greatest gift of all"...I wish you Jesus.
>
> Grace and peace, Medicine Bear
The same to you and everyone Frank!
Fred
--
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Amos Eastridge" <amose@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 24 Dec 1998 18:43:30 -0600
Well, at the Alafia Ronny in Central Florida in Jan 1998, on Jan 19, it was
19 degrees!!! Woke up to an dish pan full of ice!!! Scared hell outta tha
tourists!!! hehe...
-----Original Message-----
Joe
I came through Dubois about July 6 this year and noticed a lot of snow in
the shadows. It would take this Texas boy a while to get used to that kind
of cold. I have primitive camped here at 6 above and that was cool enough.
Keep warm.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----
>Here is sunny Dubois Wyoming it was -35 sunday morning, went duck hunting
>with my boy, froze our fingers
>Damn it is cold
>Joe
>
>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>Write for custom tanning prices
>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
>hair on robes
>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
>check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gbosen@juno.com (Greg N Bosen Bosen)
Subject: MtMan-List: tinsmithing?
Date: 25 Dec 1998 03:02:42 EST
i'm interested in learning to tinsmith. Where would be a good place to
start. Any books at the library i should try? what are the basic tools
needed? my father is a Goldsmith so i have access to his tool when
needed. they seem to be different though.
Greg Bosen
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
Date: 25 Dec 1998 11:35:58 -0500
Well, I hope you will be there again. I know I will. And l will be warm and
comfortable in what ever I bring.
Linda Holley
Amos Eastridge wrote:
> Well, at the Alafia Ronny in Central Florida in Jan 1998, on Jan 19, it was
> 19 degrees!!! Woke up to an dish pan full of ice!!! Scared hell outta tha
> tourists!!! hehe...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lanney Ratcliff <rat@htcomp.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 5:47 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
>
> Joe
> I came through Dubois about July 6 this year and noticed a lot of snow in
> the shadows. It would take this Texas boy a while to get used to that kind
> of cold. I have primitive camped here at 6 above and that was cool enough.
> Keep warm.
> Lanney Ratcliff
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 5:03 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season
>
> >Here is sunny Dubois Wyoming it was -35 sunday morning, went duck hunting
> >with my boy, froze our fingers
> >Damn it is cold
> >Joe
> >
> >Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
> >Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
> >Write for custom tanning prices
> >We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
> >hair on robes
> >Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
> >check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
> >
> >
> >
> >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: A reminder of weather conditions
Date: 25 Dec 1998 09:40:59 -0700
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE2FEA.ADBDC360
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good Morning,
Just opened a gift from the wife "Lewis & Clark", (The Journey of the =
Corps of Discovery}; and found a statement that reminded me of the =
resent e-mail about the weather conditions our brothers have been =
having.
****************
On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and almost above =
freezing. Fort Mandan was deemed officially complete, and the captains =
handed out dried apples, pepper, and extra flour for the next day's meal =
and celebration.=20
Just before Christmas dawn, the captains were awakened by the men, all =
if them, Clark noted, "merrily disposed."
December 25th, 1804.
We ushed [in] the morning with a discharge of the Swivvel [gun], and one =
round of Small arms of all the party.=20
Then another from the Swivvel. Then Capt. Clark presented a glass of =
brandy to each man of the party. We hoisted the american flag, and each =
man had another Glass of brandy.
The men prepared one of the rooms and commenced dancing. At 10 o'c =
[lock] we had another Glass of brandy, at one a gun was fired as a =
Signal for diner. Half past two another gun was fired to assemble at the =
dance, and So we kept it up in a jov[ia]l manner untill eight o'c[lock] =
at night, all without the company of the female Seck [sex].
Joseph Whitehouse
The mandans were asked not to visit the fort on Christmas because, the =
captains explained, it was a "great medicine" day for the expedition. =
But on New Year's, the men celebrated with their Indian hosts.
****************
In the next life may we experience such an adventure, and may God see us =
fit enough to handle the chore.
Happy Holidays
YF&B
Buck Conner
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE2FEA.ADBDC360
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Good Morning,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Just opened a gift from the wife "Lewis &=20
Clark", (The Journey of the Corps of Discovery}; and found a =
statement that=20
reminded me of the resent e-mail about the weather conditions our =
brothers have=20
been having.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D""=20
size=3D3>****************</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT size=3D4>O</FONT>n =
Christmas Eve,=20
the temperature climbed above zero - and almost above freezing. Fort =
Mandan was=20
deemed officially complete, and the captains handed out dried apples, =
pepper,=20
and extra flour for the next day's meal and celebration. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT size=3D4>J<FONT=20
size=3D2>ust</FONT></FONT> before Christmas dawn, the captains were =
awakened by=20
the men, all if them, Clark noted, "merrily =
disposed."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><EM>December 25th,=20
1804.</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D4><EM>W</FONT>e ushed=20
</EM>[in]<EM> the morning with a discharge of the Swivvel </EM>[gun], =
<EM>and=20
one round of Small arms of all the party. </EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><EM><FONT size=3D4>T<FONT=20
size=3D2>hen</FONT></FONT> another from the Swivvel. Then Capt. Clark =
presented a=20
glass of brandy to each man of the party. We hoisted the american flag, =
and each=20
man had another Glass of brandy.</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><EM><FONT =
size=3D4>T</FONT>he men=20
prepared one of the rooms and commenced dancing. At 10 o'c =
</EM>[lock]<EM> we=20
had another Glass of brandy, at one a gun was fired as a Signal for =
diner. Half=20
past two another gun was fired to assemble at the dance, and So we kept =
it up in=20
a jov</EM>[ia]<EM>l manner untill eight o'c</EM>[lock]<EM> at night, all =
without=20
the company of the female Seck </EM>[sex].</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D4>J</FONT>oseph=20
<FONT size=3D4>W</FONT>hitehouse</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT size=3D4>T</FONT>he mandans were =
asked not to=20
visit the fort on Christmas because, the captains explained, it was a=20
"great medicine" day for the expedition. But on New Year's, =
the men=20
celebrated with their Indian hosts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 face=3D"" size=3D3>****************</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"" size=3D3></FONT><FONT size=3D2>In =
the next life may=20
we experience such an adventure, and may God see us fit enough to handle =
the=20
chore.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Happy Holidays</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>YF&B</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DMistral size=3D4>Buck =
Conner</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE2FEA.ADBDC360--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A reminder of weather conditions
Date: 25 Dec 1998 11:57:07 EST
Buck writes:
> On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and almost above
> freezing.
Interesting quote. How did they know what the temperature was? When was the
thermometer invented, and was it an item normally carried by expeditionary
forces?
Dave Kanger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A reminder of weather conditions
Date: 25 Dec 1998 11:48:01 -0600
Dave
Galileo (1564-1642) is credited with inventing the thermometer, but =
Gabriel Daniel Fahrenheit (1686-1736) invented the mercury thermometer =
in 1714 and used it to develope the Fahrenheit scale that is still in =
use today (and by Lewis & Clark). Hope this helps. L&C carried several =
scientific instruments on the Voyage of Discovery, and I think I read =
that more than one thermometer was carried. Others better versed in L&C =
can provide more data.
Lanney Ratcliff =20
-----Original Message-----
>Buck writes:
>> On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and almost =
above=20
>> freezing.
>
>Interesting quote. How did they know what the temperature was? When =
was the
>thermometer invented, and was it an item normally carried by =
expeditionary
>forces?
>Dave Kanger
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A reminder of weather conditions
Date: 25 Dec 1998 11:46:01 +0000
Dave, The Corps carried thermometers, and guarded them carefully as they
are fragile. They did well, but eventually all the thermometers were
broken. I don't know when the instrument was invented? This expedition
was, in part, a scientific exploration. Lewis was schooled (crammed) in
the use of many different sciences, in order to make accurate
observations along the route. There were many scientific tools along.
Hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com (DON)
Subject: MtMan-List: Leapin lizards - from DON
Date: 25 Dec 1998 12:02:31 -00800 (PST)
Guess what!! You have just received an animated greeting card from DON
You can pick up your personal greeting by connecting to the following WWW Address
http://www2.bluemountain.com/cards/box7847u/ida8jeaxctmarh.htm
(Your greeting card will be available for the next 60 days)
This service is FREE! :) HAVE a good day and have fun!
____________________________________________________________
Accessing your card indicates your agreement with our Website Rules
posted at the bottom of the following Web location: (You're welcome to send a
free card to someone at this location) http://www2.bluemountain.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Bob Hannon" <reh138@hotmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:55:32 PST
Date: 25 Dec 1998 13:56:05 -0700
Dave, Thomas Jefferson wanted all the data L & C could gather. They
brought along several thermometers, I'm not sure of the exact number.
In fact while in St. Louis the winter of 1803-1804 a local physician
scraped the mercury off the back of his wive's mirror, in order to make
some more thermometers,to ensure an adequate supply. It was not to be
though, much to both Lewis & Clarks dismay, the last one was broken
going over that very steep and rough terrain of the Bitterroots
Mountains at Lost Trail Pass. Hope this casts a little more light.
Respecfully,
Bob Hannon
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinsmithing?
Date: 25 Dec 1998 14:59:20 -0800
Greg N Bosen Bosen wrote:
> i'm interested in learning to tinsmith. Where would be a good place to
> start. Any books at the library i should try? what are the basic tools
> needed? my father is a Goldsmith so i have access to his tool when
> needed. they seem to be different though.
>
> Greg Bosen
Greg,
Try Lindsay Publications Inc., PO Box 538, Bradley IL. 60915-0538,
815/935-5353.
They specialize in books on somewhat out of date technology and have a
starter book that deals with what you want to know. I do a bit of copper
bending and it doesn't take many tools. They are simple and easy to build.
I'm glad to see that you have such a close relationship with your father but
his "tool" will not do you any good in bending tin unless he came from
Krypton. I think you meant "tools" plural. I use a simple homemade metal
"Brake" , a couple of small ball peen hammers, some molds made from pine
boards, pliers, and a small piece of 1/4" bar stock that is used to turn and
roll flanges.
Hope this is of help. If you have more specific questions let me know. I
remain.......
YMOS
Capt. lahti'
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinsmithing?
Date: 26 Dec 1998 04:21:59 EST
Greg, The tools and techniques for smithing gold/silver/platinum are far
different than those for working with tin. For instance, tinsmiths use a
relatively low-temperature soldering iron (either forge heated or electric)
and precious metalsmiths use an extremely high-temperature torch. The hand
tools, solders, pickles and polishing compounds are also different. You might
want or need patterns, snips, hammer & punch, simple shape-forms, a
bender/brake, and rods for rolling edges. For books and such, try
www.amazon.com, as they have an pretty incredible selection, and let you see
book reviews, publisher's notes, and have a return policy second to none.
Also, search the 'web' under tinsmithing and you will find both historical
and modern projects for your consideration. Hope this helps, YHS, Barney
P. Fife
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: zaslow <zaz@pacificnet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes
Date: 26 Dec 1998 18:26:30 -0800 (PST)
Don,
Although I don't know the answer (I'm more concerned with horses), I would
recommend getting a copy of L & Cs Journals. The version that would
probably have this info would be the one edited by Elliot Coues. It is in 3
volumes from Dover press and about $22 - $25 in paperback (ISBN
0-486-21268-8.) I haven't read it in a long time, but remember it somewhere.
Best Regards,
Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________
At 05:49 PM 12/23/98 EST, you wrote:
>Thanks to you all for the responses - I got on this list because of similar
>interests.
>Thanks Hardtack ( what is a Long Spanish Pause ? ), Randy, Pat, Lanney and
>Capt. Lahti.
>Question: when Lewis and Clark spent five days at canoe camp near Orofino,
>Idaho, the Indians there showed the Corps how to burn out the canoes as this
>was a faster process then hacking away at them. I know the burning process
>involved water to cool the canoe/tree but how was
>all this done and what kind of trees were the best to use?
>Does anyone have an answer?
>Thanks
>Foot in his mouth Don
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ikon@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes
Date: 26 Dec 1998 21:44:36 -0500 (EST)
I have been back here reading all these posts and yesterday I mentioned to
my wife "sweetie, ya know what would be neat, making a dug out canoe" to my
suprise she agreed. Now all I need to do is find a tree, she expects one by
the spring. Me and my big mouth.
Happy Holidays
Frank V. Rago
At 06:26 PM 12/26/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Don,
>
>Although I don't know the answer (I'm more concerned with horses), I would
>recommend getting a copy of L & Cs Journals. The version that would
>probably have this info would be the one edited by Elliot Coues. It is in 3
>volumes from Dover press and about $22 - $25 in paperback (ISBN
>0-486-21268-8.) I haven't read it in a long time, but remember it somewhere.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>___________________________________________________________________________
_____
>
>At 05:49 PM 12/23/98 EST, you wrote:
>>Thanks to you all for the responses - I got on this list because of similar
>>interests.
>>Thanks Hardtack ( what is a Long Spanish Pause ? ), Randy, Pat, Lanney and
>>Capt. Lahti.
>>Question: when Lewis and Clark spent five days at canoe camp near Orofino,
>>Idaho, the Indians there showed the Corps how to burn out the canoes as this
>>was a faster process then hacking away at them. I know the burning process
>>involved water to cool the canoe/tree but how was
>>all this done and what kind of trees were the best to use?
>>Does anyone have an answer?
>>Thanks
>>Foot in his mouth Don
>>
>>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <itwhee@mcn.org>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinsmithing?
Date: 26 Dec 1998 19:00:16 -0800
go to the web an typ tinsmithing and injoy. iron tongue
Roger Lahti wrote:
> Greg N Bosen Bosen wrote:
>
> > i'm interested in learning to tinsmith. Where would be a good place to
> > start. Any books at the library i should try? what are the basic tools
> > needed? my father is a Goldsmith so i have access to his tool when
> > needed. they seem to be different though.
> >
> > Greg Bosen
>
> Greg,
>
> Try Lindsay Publications Inc., PO Box 538, Bradley IL. 60915-0538,
> 815/935-5353.
>
> They specialize in books on somewhat out of date technology and have a
> starter book that deals with what you want to know. I do a bit of copper
> bending and it doesn't take many tools. They are simple and easy to build.
> I'm glad to see that you have such a close relationship with your father but
> his "tool" will not do you any good in bending tin unless he came from
> Krypton. I think you meant "tools" plural. I use a simple homemade metal
> "Brake" , a couple of small ball peen hammers, some molds made from pine
> boards, pliers, and a small piece of 1/4" bar stock that is used to turn and
> roll flanges.
>
> Hope this is of help. If you have more specific questions let me know. I
> remain.......
>
> YMOS
> Capt. lahti'
>
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________________
> > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk)
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
Date: 26 Dec 1998 19:54:39 -0800
Unsubscribe J2hearts@juno.com
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes
Date: 27 Dec 1998 17:52:08 EST
Thanks Jerry,
I appreciate your taking the time to write me, I have those journals and will
check into them.
Don
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes
Date: 27 Dec 1998 16:58:29 -0600
I never had the urge to build a dugout canoe but I know a few people who =
did and they all have the same comment....those suckers weigh many, many =
times more than they expected them to. Even relatively small dugouts =
are barely moveable out of the water and ride very low in the water. =
Maybe they didn't make them thinwalled enough and left them heavier than =
they should be. Anybody have any experience with attempting to make a =
dugout canoe light enough to be moved with reasonable ease and to allow =
adequate freeboard when underway?=20
My Old Town is dark green plastic and has an 800 lb rated carrying =
capacity.....yeah I know, barely enough for me---haw, haw, haw...and =
draws only a few inches. That makes me appreciate even more the men who =
paddled UP the Missouri in dugouts. Comments? WAG's?
SWAG's?
Lanney Ratcliff
ps: W(ild) A(ss) G(uesses) or S(cientific) etc=20
-----Original Message-----
>I have been back here reading all these posts and yesterday I mentioned =
to
>my wife "sweetie, ya know what would be neat, making a dug out canoe" =
to my
>suprise she agreed. Now all I need to do is find a tree, she expects =
one by
>the spring. Me and my big mouth.
>
>Happy Holidays
>
>
>Frank V. Rago
>
>
>
>At 06:26 PM 12/26/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>Don,
>>
>>Although I don't know the answer (I'm more concerned with horses), I =
would
>>recommend getting a copy of L & Cs Journals. The version that would
>>probably have this info would be the one edited by Elliot Coues. It =
is in 3
>>volumes from Dover press and about $22 - $25 in paperback (ISBN
>>0-486-21268-8.) I haven't read it in a long time, but remember it =
somewhere.
>>
>>Best Regards,=20
>>
>>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>>_______________________________________________________________________=
____
>_____
>>
>>At 05:49 PM 12/23/98 EST, you wrote:
>>>Thanks to you all for the responses - I got on this list because of =
similar
>>>interests.
>>>Thanks Hardtack ( what is a Long Spanish Pause ? ), Randy, Pat, =
Lanney and
>>>Capt. Lahti.
>>>Question: when Lewis and Clark spent five days at canoe camp near =
Orofino,
>>>Idaho, the Indians there showed the Corps how to burn out the canoes =
as this
>>>was a faster process then hacking away at them. I know the burning =
process
>>>involved water to cool the canoe/tree but how was=20
>>>all this done and what kind of trees were the best to use?
>>>Does anyone have an answer?
>>>Thanks
>>>Foot in his mouth Don
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DPOCTALC@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: making canoes
Date: 27 Dec 1998 17:59:35 EST
The other day several of you talked about L & C having thermometers, etc.
All were correct but a comment was made that said L & C went over Lost
Trail Pass. They missed LTP as they were about a mile and a half NE of
the pass.
Stay warm and dry,
DON
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes
Date: 27 Dec 1998 18:12:15 EST
Saw a documentary on discovery channel not long ago... amazon basin indians
making burned out canoes; they all rode VERY low in the water, and they used
this to their advantage. when a surface obstacle in the river was encountered
(branches, tree tops, logs, etc) they would portage all their personal goods
and sink the canoe to go UNDER the obstacle, as the canoes were far to heavy
to carry any distance. YHS BP Fife
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL. AND TO DEAN--- THANKS AGAIN FOR SUCH AN INCREDIBLE JOB.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Taking the plunge
Date: 28 Dec 1998 10:39:16 EST
What state are you from? Maybe some of the good folks here can point you to
rendezvous in your area.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Laura Rugel Glise <lglise@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
Date: 27 Dec 1998 14:31:53 +0000
unsubscribe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Mill, Kirk" <millk@aydin.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 28 Dec 1998 15:07:39 -0500
Well, it looks like my next project is a capote. I found some surplus Swiss
army blankets (brown with red stripe) that look okay for the price (24.00)
aand now I am looking for a good pattern. Does anyone have an opinion on the
patterns out there? NW Traders, Eagle View etc. I have book by D. Montgomery
with a pattern, has anyone tried it? I am not nearly as squeamish about
cutting up some blankets as I was about cutting up hides, so I might just
give this Montgomery pattern a rip.TIA.
Kirk Mill
P.S. for X-mas I made my 5 year old daughter a set of buckskins for her Ken
doll. Ken aint no sissy anymore.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ron" <cstmzd@ida.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 28 Dec 1998 14:17:51 -0700
LOL Kirk,
Just follow the instructions in Book of Buckskinning #2 (I think). It is
really easy, after you finish it you,ll wonder why you didn't try it
before.
YMOS,
Lonewolf
----------
> From: Mill, Kirk <millk@aydin.com>
> To: 'ML MAILING LIST' <mlml@vnet.net>
> Cc: 'history mailing list' <hist_text@xmission.com>
> Subject: MtMan-List: capotes
> Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 1:07 PM
>
> Well, it looks like my next project is a capote. I found some surplus
Swiss
> army blankets (brown with red stripe) that look okay for the price
(24.00)
> aand now I am looking for a good pattern. Does anyone have an opinion on
the
> patterns out there? NW Traders, Eagle View etc. I have book by D.
Montgomery
> with a pattern, has anyone tried it? I am not nearly as squeamish about
> cutting up some blankets as I was about cutting up hides, so I might just
> give this Montgomery pattern a rip.TIA.
> Kirk Mill
> P.S. for X-mas I made my 5 year old daughter a set of buckskins for her
Ken
> doll. Ken aint no sissy anymore.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Mill, Kirk" <millk@aydin.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 28 Dec 1998 16:29:01 -0500
> Just follow the instructions in Book of Buckskinning #2 (I think). It is
> really easy, after you finish it you,ll wonder why you didn't try it
> before.
>
> YMOS,
> Lonewolf
>
[Mill, Kirk] Unfortunately they don't have that series at my
library and I'm too cheap to buy it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MWMEDGAR@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
Date: 28 Dec 1998 17:36:12 EST
Unsubscribe MWMEDGAR@AOL:.COM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 05 Oct 1998 14:39:22 -0500
Kirk'
I used Missouri River Patterns for my capote ( grey blanket w/red stripe). It
was very easy to follow and made a good looking garment. Crazy Crow Trading
Post has the patterns in stock. I added a double thickmess to the back of mine
to block wind.
Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy
Mill, Kirk wrote:
> Well, it looks like my next project is a capote. I found some surplus Swiss
> army blankets (brown with red stripe) that look okay for the price (24.00)
> aand now I am looking for a good pattern. Does anyone have an opinion on the
> patterns out there? NW Traders, Eagle View etc. I have book by D. Montgomery
> with a pattern, has anyone tried it? I am not nearly as squeamish about
> cutting up some blankets as I was about cutting up hides, so I might just
> give this Montgomery pattern a rip.TIA.
> Kirk Mill
> P.S. for X-mas I made my 5 year old daughter a set of buckskins for her Ken
> doll. Ken aint no sissy anymore.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 28 Dec 1998 18:34:11 +0000
Kirk, I have used Eagle View patterns, and Northwest Traders pattern.
The Eagle View was used to make Children's Capotes. The NWT was used for
my own. The NWT shows many different styles and sizes. It's been along
time since I've looked at the EV pattern, but it allowed me, a novice,to
sew up 2 capotes. I made mine as canoe capote. It is shorter, hangs to
just under butt. I made a double cape, and left off the hood. I made
mine from a surplus blanket first. After I used it, and was satisfied
with the style, I made another out of a Whittney Horse Rug. One thing I
did was sew the capote with the seams to the inside, thus my less than
fancy stitching is hidden. Cut that blanket, and have fun with it.....
Hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NaugaMok@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 28 Dec 1998 20:54:14 EST
In a message dated 98-12-28 16:32:45 EST, you write:
<< > Just follow the instructions in Book of Buckskinning #2 (I think).
> Lonewolf
>
< [Mill, Kirk] Unfortunately they don't have that series at my library and
I'm too < cheap to buy it.
>>
BOB #2 is correct. "too cheap to buy it"??? By the time you buy all the
patterns in BOB #2, you'd be out considerably more than the $12.95 for the
book! While a few of the articles in the BOB series should be taken with a
grain of salt, the whole series has good references & worth the expense. They
cover a lot of subjects, & their "how to" articles are realy good. Most of us
didn't get the whole series at one time -- that'd hurt a bit. I got 'em as I
saw a need -- not necessarily in order -- think #2 was the first one I got
because of the patterns.
NM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "S. Gilbert" <sgilbert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Taking the plunge
Date: 28 Dec 1998 22:05:25 -0600 (CST)
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote:
> What state are you from? Maybe some of the good folks here can point you to
> rendezvous in your area.
I live in Iowa, Iowa City, to be exact. So far we have attended, as day
visitors, Ushers Ferry 'Voo in Cedar Rapids and Fort Atkison 'Voo in
north central Iowa. We have drivn to Mankato, Minn and Omaha, Ne for
trade fairs to find gear. We have a suscription to Powder Horn News and
are looking and planning ahead. Any help or advice is always welcome.
Sue Gilbert
(Old Hands)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes
Date: 28 Dec 1998 20:10:37 -0800 (PST)
On Sun, 27 Dec 1998, Lanney Ratcliff wrote:
> heavier than they should be. Anybody have any experience with
> attempting to make a dugout canoe light enough to be moved with
> reasonable ease and to allow adequate freeboard when underway?
aye lanny
a 14 footer made with thin walls etc. was made all neat and straight,
now, after 2 yrs, the gunnels look like a broken backed snake, leaks like
a congressman and she rides like green broke mustang.
the original that is on display at the museum of the Nez Perce has walls
about 2" thick and about 8 " of bottom, its about 30' long
even the best dugouts we've made are heavy, cumbersome and take an act of
congress to get upriver.
I am no expert, merely a fellow who has been there once or twice
Regards
Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 28 Dec 1998 21:33:40 -0700
What Lee has stated seems to be the norm for dugouts from several dozen
replies I have received off_list, heavy, hard to handle, and crack in time,
back to the drawing board.
What about another type of skiff that's correct for the Rocky Mountains Fur
Trade, bull boats are hard to control, birch bark are really an eastern
vessel (no birch in our area big enough to be usable). Strip sided boats or
a Canadian French water craft seems lighter, have seen a few articles on
them. Most of the mid-west bateau's seen in museums or the reproduction ones
seen on the Missouri from Omaha to Ft. deChartre seem heavy.
What's your idea for a light, correct water vessel that fits in the
1800-1840 time period, used in the Rocky Mountain Fur trade?
Buck
________
-----Original Message-----
>
>On Sun, 27 Dec 1998, Lanney Ratcliff wrote:
>> heavier than they should be. Anybody have any experience with
>> attempting to make a dugout canoe light enough to be moved with
>> reasonable ease and to allow adequate freeboard when underway?
>
>aye lanny
>
>a 14 footer made with thin walls etc. was made all neat and straight,
>now, after 2 yrs, the gunnels look like a broken backed snake, leaks like
>a congressman and she rides like green broke mustang.
>
>the original that is on display at the museum of the Nez Perce has walls
>about 2" thick and about 8 " of bottom, its about 30' long
>
>even the best dugouts we've made are heavy, cumbersome and take an act of
>congress to get upriver.
>
>I am no expert, merely a fellow who has been there once or twice
>
>Regards
>
>Lee Newbill
>Viola, Idaho
>email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
>Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
>http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 28 Dec 1998 21:58:54 +0000
Buck, I have some interest in this subject. The Pacific coast had its
Stripper canoes. I wonder how early, and further west the canvas canoe
was??? Anyone have some interesting info.? I have seen the west coast
dugouts In the Ft. Clatsop area. These were beautiful boats. Carved
thin, and formed, these boats were elegant. I have done canoe treks. I
have always used a modern canoe. I would be interested in hearing from
other canoeists on how to 'primitive' canoe, with some predictability ( I
have to get back to work next week...?). Hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 28 Dec 1998 23:34:27 -0800 (PST)
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Barry Conner wrote:
> What about another type of skiff that's correct for the Rocky Mountains Fur
> Trade, bull boats are hard to control, birch bark are really an eastern
> vessel (no birch in our area big enough to be usable). Strip sided boats or
> a Canadian French water craft seems lighter, have seen a few articles on
> them. Most of the mid-west bateau's seen in museums or the reproduction ones
> seen on the Missouri from Omaha to Ft. deChartre seem heavy.
>
> What's your idea for a light, correct water vessel that fits in the
> 1800-1840 time period, used in the Rocky Mountain Fur trade?
I seem to remember an article by Angela Gotfred on batuex used west of
the continental divide. These boats were simple, smallish and relatively
light, although somewhat leaky as the boards were lashed (to save
precious nails for other things) together (stitched?) to
the wooden supports (thwarts?) and the gaps were caulked with pine tar
etc. If faulty memory serves me further, they were used mostly on the
Columbia River waterways by British Companies.
We also had a relatively bizarre looking craft used by a local tribe
(Kutenai) that resembled a birch bark (?) kayak more than a canoe. take
a modern kayak, stretch it's opening to about 2/3 the boat (but still
centered, and you have the concept. I've never seen any mention of these
craft in the fur trade though, and while I have done some whitewater in
craft not designed for the afore mentioned whitewater, I would be hesitant
to take one of these craft on the mighty Snake.
I will look in my limited library at home and see if what it says is
different from what me limited brain remembers.
Regards
Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes
Date: 29 Dec 1998 05:40:56 -0600
That is just about what I thought. It seems that if you want a dugout =
canoe you just have to be prepared to use plenty of muscle to run the =
thing. Thanks for the info.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----
>
>On Sun, 27 Dec 1998, Lanney Ratcliff wrote:
>> heavier than they should be. Anybody have any experience with
>> attempting to make a dugout canoe light enough to be moved with
>> reasonable ease and to allow adequate freeboard when underway?=20
>
>aye lanny
>
>a 14 footer made with thin walls etc. was made all neat and straight,
>now, after 2 yrs, the gunnels look like a broken backed snake, leaks =
like
>a congressman and she rides like green broke mustang.
>
>the original that is on display at the museum of the Nez Perce has =
walls
>about 2" thick and about 8 " of bottom, its about 30' long
>
>even the best dugouts we've made are heavy, cumbersome and take an act =
of
>congress to get upriver.
>
>I am no expert, merely a fellow who has been there once or twice
>
>Regards
>
>Lee Newbill
>Viola, Idaho
>email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
>Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
>http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 06:51:04 -0700
Lee,
Now that you mention it, I remember that article. I saved it a year or so
ago, had a hard drive crash and lost it, Angela had given me the name of a
gentlemen in Canada and had talked to him. He was putting together a set of
plans that one could work off of to reconstruct a good copy of an original
batuex used west of the continental divide.
Angela hope your reading this and can provide the gentlemen's name or have
him contact me off_line.
Thanks for the wakeup call Lee.
Buck
_______________
-----Original Message-----
>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Barry Conner wrote:
>> What about another type of skiff that's correct for the Rocky Mountains
Fur
>> Trade, bull boats are hard to control, birch bark are really an eastern
>> vessel (no birch in our area big enough to be usable). Strip sided boats
or
>> a Canadian French water craft seems lighter, have seen a few articles on
>> them. Most of the mid-west bateau's seen in museums or the reproduction
ones
>> seen on the Missouri from Omaha to Ft. deChartre seem heavy.
>>
>> What's your idea for a light, correct water vessel that fits in the
>> 1800-1840 time period, used in the Rocky Mountain Fur trade?
>
>I seem to remember an article by Angela Gotfred on batuex used west of
>the continental divide. These boats were simple, smallish and relatively
>light, although somewhat leaky as the boards were lashed (to save
>precious nails for other things) together (stitched?) to
>the wooden supports (thwarts?) and the gaps were caulked with pine tar
>etc. If faulty memory serves me further, they were used mostly on the
>Columbia River waterways by British Companies.
>
>We also had a relatively bizarre looking craft used by a local tribe
>(Kutenai) that resembled a birch bark (?) kayak more than a canoe. take
>a modern kayak, stretch it's opening to about 2/3 the boat (but still
>centered, and you have the concept. I've never seen any mention of these
>craft in the fur trade though, and while I have done some whitewater in
>craft not designed for the afore mentioned whitewater, I would be hesitant
>to take one of these craft on the mighty Snake.
>
>I will look in my limited library at home and see if what it says is
>different from what me limited brain remembers.
>
>Regards
>
>Lee Newbill
>Viola, Idaho
>email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
>Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
>http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jerry Anderson <janderson@umary.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 08:07:30 -0600
Lee Newbill wrote:
>
> On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Barry Conner wrote:
> > What about another type of skiff that's correct for the Rocky Mountains Fur
> > Trade, bull boats are hard to control, birch bark are really an eastern
> > vessel (no birch in our area big enough to be usable). Strip sided boats or
> > a Canadian French water craft seems lighter, have seen a few articles on
> > them. Most of the mid-west bateau's seen in museums or the reproduction ones
> > seen on the Missouri from Omaha to Ft. deChartre seem heavy.
> >
> > What's your idea for a light, correct water vessel that fits in the
> > 1800-1840 time period, used in the Rocky Mountain Fur trade?
>
As a new blackpowder shooter and history buff, but a long-time canoe
traveler (including no small number of hours working on wood and canvas
canoes and repairing navigational errors inflicted on aluminum and
kevlar watercraft) I have some humble suggestions. These books may be
hard to find, but try inter-library loan at your public or regional library.
Adney E.T. & Chapelle H.I., 1964, The Bark Canoes and Skin Boats of
North America.
Blandford P., 1974, An Illustrated History of Small Boats. A History
of Oared, Poled and Paddled Craft.
Casson L., 1963, Sewn Boats.
Christensen A.E., 1984, 'Sewn boats in Scandinavia.' in: McGrail S. (ed.)
Johnstone P., 1974, The Archaeology of Ships.
March E.J., 1970, Inshore Craft of Britain in the Days of Sail and Oar.
McGowan A., 1981, Tiller and Whipstaff 1400-1700.
McGowan A., 1981, The Century before Steam.
McGrail S., 1985, Towards a classification of water transport.
Nouhuys van, 1928, Dug-outs.
Roberts K.G. & Shackleton P., 1983, The Canoe.
Roberts O.T.P., 1983, An index for flat-bottom boats.
Jerry Anderson
On the Banks of the (Frozen) Missouri River
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 09:10:30 -0700
I don't know about birch bark in other areas of the Rocky's, but it was used
here in the Kootenai's (NW Montana, N. Idaho, Southern British Columbia).
The shape was somewhat different than back east (at least the Kootenai
Indian style).
David Thompson used one.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: packratt <packratt@erols.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 29 Dec 1998 11:19:33 -0500
Could someone send me the contact info for these two companies?
Thanks
packratt
RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote:
> Kirk, I have used Eagle View patterns, and Northwest Traders pattern.
> The Eagle View was used to make Children's Capotes. The NWT was used for
> my own. The NWT shows many different styles and sizes. It's been along
> time since I've looked at the EV pattern, but it allowed me, a novice,to
> sew up 2 capotes. I made mine as canoe capote. It is shorter, hangs to
> just under butt. I made a double cape, and left off the hood. I made
> mine from a surplus blanket first. After I used it, and was satisfied
> with the style, I made another out of a Whittney Horse Rug. One thing I
> did was sew the capote with the seams to the inside, thus my less than
> fancy stitching is hidden. Cut that blanket, and have fun with it.....
> Hardtack
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: boats
Date: 29 Dec 1998 09:29:56 +0100
When the "mountain men" made boats and described
them, they were often canoe-shaped, built on a
sapling frame like a bull boat, and covered with
hide, like a bull boat. It seems that two (or
more) hides sewn end to end were used to get
length. It also seems that some of these boats
were quite large and held substantial loads.
There is an AJ Miller image of one of these boats
with a whole crew of folks in it.
Having never made or used one of these boats, I
feel fully qualified to recommend them without
reservation.
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Austin, Tim" <AustinT@doimex2.sill.army.mil>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 29 Dec 1998 10:34:20 -0600
Do not know about Eagle View, but Northwest Traders have a web site at:
http://www.nwtrader.com/
Good luck.
> ----------
> From: packratt[SMTP:packratt@erols.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 10:19 AM
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
>
> Could someone send me the contact info for these two companies?
> Thanks
> packratt
>
> RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote:
>
> > Kirk, I have used Eagle View patterns, and Northwest Traders pattern.
> > The Eagle View was used to make Children's Capotes. The NWT was used
> for
> > my own. The NWT shows many different styles and sizes. It's been along
> > time since I've looked at the EV pattern, but it allowed me, a novice,to
> > sew up 2 capotes. I made mine as canoe capote. It is shorter, hangs to
> > just under butt. I made a double cape, and left off the hood. I made
> > mine from a surplus blanket first. After I used it, and was satisfied
> > with the style, I made another out of a Whittney Horse Rug. One thing I
> > did was sew the capote with the seams to the inside, thus my less than
> > fancy stitching is hidden. Cut that blanket, and have fun with it.....
> > Hardtack
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________________
> > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: paul mueller <pmueller@infinet.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 29 Dec 1998 11:36:21 -0500
packratt wrote:
>
> Could someone send me the contact info for these two companies?
> Thanks
> packratt
>
> RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote:
>
> > Kirk, I have used Eagle View patterns, and Northwest Traders pattern.
> > The Eagle View was used to make Children's Capotes. The NWT was used for
> > my own. The NWT shows many different styles and sizes. It's been along
> > time since I've looked at the EV pattern, but it allowed me, a novice,to
> > sew up 2 capotes. I made mine as canoe capote. It is shorter, hangs to
> > just under butt. I made a double cape, and left off the hood. I made
> > mine from a surplus blanket first. After I used it, and was satisfied
> > with the style, I made another out of a Whittney Horse Rug. One thing I
> > did was sew the capote with the seams to the inside, thus my less than
> > fancy stitching is hidden. Cut that blanket, and have fun with it.....
> > Hardtack
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________________
> > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
northwest traders
5055 west jackson rd
enon oh 45323
937-767-9244
www.nwtrader.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
Date: 29 Dec 1998 11:42:11 -0500
unsubscribe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Sidney Porter" <sidney@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 29 Dec 1998 13:10:11 -0800
Kirk, I have a couple of pieces of advice when making a capote. First, make
sure you have good ventalation while cutting and sewing. The wool makes a
lot of lint. It really makes me sneeze. The higher quality the wool, the
less it does this, but all will be pretty "dusty".
Second, unless you feel like you really need themt, don't put those long
ties on the hood. They get caught on everything and end up at the bottom of
the hooter! After having a capote that wraps around and a long tailed wool
shirt, I much prefer the shirt. If I were to make another capote for
myself, I would put buttons on it.
Sidney
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 14:04:37 -0800
Barry Conner wrote:
> What's your idea for a light, correct water vessel that fits in the
> 1800-1840 time period, used in the Rocky Mountain Fur trade?
>
> Buck
Buck,
A couple of years back I decided that I didn't want to take my Old Town into
what was supposed to be an otherwise Period over water trek our group does each
spring up the Palouse river off the Snake in WA. After a bit of research I
settled on the classic Bateau and found in John Gardeners book "THE DORY" a set
of lines and offsets that would produce a 19' long by 52" wide bateau that could
be made by anyone and could be made heavy as the author intended or light as I
chose to do.
Brother Leonard Conelly put together a nice article on the boats used in the fur
trade and published it in T&LR about a year later. In his article he said that
though these boats were common and used plank construction (lapstrake, etc.)
they would not be practical these days because of the weight and the need to
keep them wet so they would stay tight. I had taken his advise before I heard it
and made mine of 1/4" marine plywood. Our friend "Badger" had made one 18' long
using fir planks in classical lapstrake construction but it is too heavy for two
men to launch off a trailer without a way to lift it up. My solution has proved
to be much lighter and handier.
Over the course of most of Jan. through early April I laid up this 19'r and
ended up with a period correct style boat that launches easily, can be paddled,
rowed or sailed as the originals were. It was not a difficult project and the
basic shape of this type of boat can be made in almost any size you have the
gumption and materials to make. Last spring I took my wife, and my friend John
"Digger" Pollack into the Palouse camp site in this 19' bateau. We went fairly
light but all three of us and all our gear fit in this boat safely. I sailed it
in upstream using a Sprit Sail with Boom and rowed it out down stream into a 25
knot wind with 2' seas. I was working hard the whole way but never had as much
problem as many of the other craft did especially the single manned canoes. On
another trip to Lake Roosevelt on the Columbia above Grand Coulee Dam with four
of us paddling and no cargo, we were able to run circles around 24' freight
canoes with 8 man crews.
There is a plan running around in wooden boat building circles called the 6 hr
canoe which is really a small bateau. It is about 16" long and will get one man
and his gear into most any water born trek he wants to go into. It only takes
two sheets of plywood to build and can be made in a living room. My boat wasn't
much more difficult but it took a room 24' long to loft it up.
Leonard's' article pointed out that this type of boat was used not just on the
Columbia but on the eastward drainage's too. If you look at some of the shipping
manifests of goods going west to the trapping grounds there was a considerable
quantity of oakum and pine tar. These two items were used to seal up simple
plank built boats that were built on site with simple techniques and used to
freight pelts back to St. Louie and else where. Not to say that bull boats or
hide boats or even birch bark weren't used but they were not the best and not
the most important. Birch bark canoes were used in Canada going to the Rockies
and back but Birch bark is not as easy to find in the Rockies as it is in the
lake country much farther east and so people like David Tompson and others made
use of the bateau/dory style hull to get them where they wanted to go.
If some one is serious about wanting to build a big bateau using the old and new
techniques, I will be more than happy to help them along the way. I
remain.......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
> ________
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 14:09:53 -0800
Hardtack, YOu write:
RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote:
> Buck, I have some interest in this subject. The Pacific coast had its
> Stripper canoes. I wonder how early, and further west the canvas canoe
> was???
I'm confused as to what you mean by "Stripper" canoes? I don't recall ever
reading anything about this type of construction being used before advent of
modern adhesives. As to the canvas canoe, I believe it too is a late 19th
Century craft developed in the general area of the Adarondacks and not
something involved in the pre 1840 fur trade.
> Anyone have some interesting info.? I have seen the west coast
> dugouts In the Ft. Clatsop area. These were beautiful boats. Carved
> thin, and formed, these boats were elegant. I have done canoe treks. I
> have always used a modern canoe. I would be interested in hearing from
> other canoeists on how to 'primitive' canoe, with some predictability ( I
> have to get back to work next week...?). Hardtack
I hope my other post on the bateau I built is what you are looking for. I
remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "C Davis" <cdavis@magicnet.net>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 17:39:05 -0500
I'm interested in your boat design. Where can I get some particulars?
Capt. Lahti' said:
> -----Original Message-----
> Over the course of most of Jan. through early April I laid up
> this 19'r and
> ended up with a period correct style boat that launches easily,
> can be paddled,
> rowed or sailed as the originals were. It was not a difficult
> project and the
> basic shape of this type of boat can be made in almost any size
> you have the
> gumption and materials to make.
<snip>
> There is a plan running around in wooden boat building circles
> called the 6 hr
> canoe which is really a small bateau. It is about 16" long and
> will get one man
> and his gear into most any water born trek he wants to go into.
> It only takes
> two sheets of plywood to build and can be made in a living room.
> My boat wasn't
> much more difficult but it took a room 24' long to loft it up.
>
Would be interested in this boat too perhaps.
<snip>
> If some one is serious about wanting to build a big bateau using
> the old and new
> techniques, I will be more than happy to help them along the way. I
> remain.......
Don't know how serious yet but I'm intrigued.
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
-Craig
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 15:40:08 -0800
C Davis wrote:
> I'm interested in your boat design. Where can I get some particulars?
>
Craig,
Like I said, the boats' particulars were taken from a drawing in the Dory
Book by Gardener. You can probably find it in a good library but if not I'
sure Amazon or some other book seller can get it for you. I didn't have
any problem finding it. It is called the 19' heavy batteau and can be
found on page 140 in the Dory Book. The plans for the 6 hr canoe are
available and mentioned in various places but the best starting place is
Wooden Boat Mag. which you can pick up at a good Mag. Rack. In it will be
info on how to order a catalogue of their plans and such.
> Would be interested in this boat too perhaps.
Which one are you talking about?
> Don't know how serious yet but I'm intrigued.
How intrigued are you? Enough to look for the book and mag. I mentioned so
we can both look at the same picture and know what we are talking about?
What else can I help you with? I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 18:09:09 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Barry Conner wrote:
> Now that you mention it, I remember that article. I saved it a year or so
> ago, had a hard drive crash and lost it
Buck
Found it.
That article was "Bateau in the Northwest" by Thomas Swan.
volume XIII of the Northwest Journal.
Most of the boats he speaks of are large, in the 30' range, however, he
also mentions several smaller utilitarian type vessels, one of which was
only 12' long. Refers to them as Clinker built, or lapstrake
construction.
As Cap'n Lahti mentioned, these are still gonna be plenty heavy unless you
lighten the load with modern plywood.
Regards
Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 19:39:31 -0700
Lee,
Think your right, as I remember his name was "Swanney".
Thanks
Buck
___________________
-----Original Message-----
>On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Barry Conner wrote:
>> Now that you mention it, I remember that article. I saved it a year or so
>> ago, had a hard drive crash and lost it
>
>Buck
>
>Found it.
>
>That article was "Bateau in the Northwest" by Thomas Swan.
>volume XIII of the Northwest Journal.
>
>Most of the boats he speaks of are large, in the 30' range, however, he
>also mentions several smaller utilitarian type vessels, one of which was
>only 12' long. Refers to them as Clinker built, or lapstrake
>construction.
>
>As Cap'n Lahti mentioned, these are still gonna be plenty heavy unless you
>lighten the load with modern plywood.
>
>Regards
>
>Lee Newbill
>Viola, Idaho
>email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
>Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
>http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 22:26:52 +0000
Capt. Lahti, You are right about 'stripper', I should have said
'plank'. Our local Indians, the Chumash, made plank canoes sealed with
tar. The tar just seeps out of the ground in certain areas here. Thanks
for the info on the bateau. That sounds real interesting. Do you know
how much your 19 footer weighed? I'm spoiled by a 17' Kevlar canoe. I
can keep a boat, but not a horse, so most of my long distance treks are
by boat. I would love to get out of a plastic boat. I'll be checking
out that wooden boat mag.. thanks Hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 21:57:56 -0800
Hardtack,
Thanks for the clarification, thought it must be something like that. The
19'r probably weighs close to 250+ just guessing. It has a load capacity up
around 900 to 1000 lb. If I built another one I would consider making it a
bit wider on the bottom and amid ships at the gunwales. I thought I would be
able to haul it around on top of the truck but ended up using one of those
small utility trailers with a longer tongue. before we put the cedar floor
boards two guys could pick it up standing at the ends. I really encourage
folks to consider making a wood boat for this game. It sure puts a whole new
slant on how you feel about a water trip. I remain......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote:
> Capt. Lahti, You are right about 'stripper', I should have said
> 'plank'. Our local Indians, the Chumash, made plank canoes sealed with
> tar. The tar just seeps out of the ground in certain areas here. Thanks
> for the info on the bateau. That sounds real interesting. Do you know
> how much your 19 footer weighed? I'm spoiled by a 17' Kevlar canoe. I
> can keep a boat, but not a horse, so most of my long distance treks are
> by boat. I would love to get out of a plastic boat. I'll be checking
> out that wooden boat mag.. thanks Hardtack
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 29 Dec 1998 23:18:18 -0800 (PST)
Good Morning Cap'n Lahti
You probably mentioned it, but I can't remember... so, what did you do
about sealing and painting?
Regards
Lee
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 30 Dec 1998 00:04:36 +0000
Capt. Lahti, In the beteau, I like the idea of paddle, row, or sail. I
have a 17' poly canoe (Mohawk) which will haul over half ton. I can load
it on top of car by myself, easily. I still like the idea of an Historic
vessel. Anyone else in- terested? Between us, we could build a
fleet..... <s> Hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel
Date: 30 Dec 1998 09:17:33 -0800
Lee Newbill wrote:
> Good Morning Cap'n Lahti
>
> You probably mentioned it, but I can't remember... so, what did you do
> about sealing and painting?
>
> Regards
>
> Lee
Lee,
Since this boat uses plywood rather than plank construction it's seams
will not swell tight naturally. I closed all seams with construction epoxy
and tapped all seams on the outside with 4" fiber glass tape in resin. I
didn't glass the hull so-as-to keep the weight down. All wood surfaces
inside and out were drenched in wood preservative which I think contains
copper. I painted the boat inside and out with a paint the paint store
recommended for concrete floors since it is formulated for heavy traffic
and moisture resistance. The wood fittings that I wanted to leave natural
got a few coats of clear marine varnish. I would estimate that I have
about $300 max. in materials but Tom Crooks and I were able to get the
marine plywood for about $15 a sheet because it had some minor edge
damage. A good grade of exterior plywood will work just fine if sealed
well and the frames can be made of almost any 1" by 2"-3" material you can
find. I used pine but Oak would be a bit stronger though heavier and I can
see lumber salvaged from Pallets as working just fine. This is borderline
for historic content so I hope no one is offended by the use of the space.
I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 30 Dec 1998 12:55:20 EST
In a message dated 12/28/98 NaugaMok writes:
<< BOB #2 is correct. "too cheap to buy it"??? By the time you buy all the
patterns in BOB #2, you'd be out considerably more than the $12.95 for the
book! While a few of the articles in the BOB series should be taken with a
grain of salt, the whole series has good references & worth the expense. >>
Couldn't agree more. Might cost a bit more, and not that much, to buy the
needed volume of B.O.B. and then for the other volumes you have something to
ask for for birthdays, Fathers Day, Christmas etc. that really isn't all thet
expensive.
Longshot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 30 Dec 1998 13:01:30 EST
In a message dated 12/29/98 sidney writes:
<< Second, unless you feel like you really need themt, don't put those long
ties on the hood. They get caught on everything and end up at the bottom of
the hooter! >>
Amen to that, as a matter of fact that tail was only the first to go, the
hood went next!
Longshot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
Date: 30 Dec 1998 17:24:56 EST
A layered or caped shoulder provides great warmth and can be pulled around
your head/face when necessary. i think the design is called 'frontiersman'
(at least in Panther's catalog) and also has a four-button front. nothing
hanging down or getting caught in the brush. YHS,
Barney P Fife
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Happy New Year
Date: 30 Dec 1998 17:51:47 -0700
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE341D.11D63720
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Look whats going on with Lewis and Clark as the new year comes in.
************
January 1st, 1806. Our repast of this day, tho' better than that of =
Cristmass, consisted principally in the anticipation of the 1st day of =
January 1807, when in the bosom of our friends we hope to participate in =
the mirth and hilarity of the day, and when with the zest given by the =
recollection of the present, we shall completely, both mentally and =
corporally, enjoy the repast which the hand of civilization has prepared =
for us.
MERIWETHER LEWIS
Men were put to work making candles, boiling ocean water for salt, =
preserving elk meat in a smokehouse, and sewing clothes from elk hides =
for the return trip home.
Clark labored over a new map that would replace eastern speculation with =
the hard facts of western geography.
Lewis wrote page after page of descriptions of animals and plants =
unknown to science-from the giant sitka spruce tree to the evergreen =
huckleberry; from ring-necked ducks and whistling swans to small =
smelt-the candlefish-that the men roasted and ate whole.
************
For a new year it seems things are well with our early travelers, fed =
and full of thoughts of returning home.
May you and your have a good New Year.
Later
YF&B
Buck Conner
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE341D.11D63720
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT size=3D4>L<FONT=20
size=3D2>ook</FONT></FONT> whats going on with Lewis and Clark as the =
new year=20
comes in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D4><STRONG>************</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><EM>January =
1st, 1806.=20
Our repast of this day, tho' better than that of Cristmass, consisted=20
principally in the anticipation of the 1st day of January 1807, when in =
the=20
bosom of our friends we hope to participate in the mirth and hilarity of =
the=20
day, and when with the zest given by the recollection of the present, we =
shall=20
completely, both mentally and corporally, enjoy the repast which the =
hand of=20
civilization has prepared for us.</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D1><FONT =
size=3D3>M</FONT>ERIWETHER <FONT=20
size=3D3>L</FONT>EWIS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Men were =
put to work=20
making candles, boiling ocean water for salt, preserving elk meat in a=20
smokehouse, and sewing clothes from elk hides for the return trip=20
home.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Clark =
labored over a new=20
map that would replace eastern speculation with the hard facts of =
western=20
geography.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Lewis wrote =
page after=20
page of descriptions of animals and plants unknown to science-from the =
giant=20
sitka spruce tree to the evergreen huckleberry; from ring-necked ducks =
and=20
whistling swans to small smelt-the candlefish-that the men roasted and =
ate=20
whole.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D4><STRONG>************</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
face=3D""=20
size=3D4>F</FONT>or a new year it seems things are well with our early =
travelers,=20
fed and full of thoughts of returning home.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT size=3D4>M</FONT>ay you and your =
have a good=20
New Year.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D3><FONT=20
size=3D4>L</FONT><FONT size=3D2>ater</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><FONT=20
size=3D3>YF&B</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DMistral size=3D5>Buck=20
Conner</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE341D.11D63720--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dammiller@juno.com (David A Miller)
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
Date: 30 Dec 1998 21:06:06 -0700
unsubscribe hist_text dammiller@juno.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Phil Petersen" <bamafan@Traveller.COM>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide?
Date: 30 Dec 1998 22:40:13 -0600
I have enough deer hides (hair on) to measure the 94'x48' inch suggested
size once sewn together for a capote. If I made a pattern design out of
this material would it be considered a capote or what? I would appreciate
your feed back.
Grasshoppa
-----Original Message-----
>Kirk, I have a couple of pieces of advice when making a capote. First,
make
>sure you have good ventalation while cutting and sewing. The wool makes a
>lot of lint. It really makes me sneeze. The higher quality the wool, the
>less it does this, but all will be pretty "dusty".
>
>Second, unless you feel like you really need themt, don't put those long
>ties on the hood. They get caught on everything and end up at the bottom
of
>the hooter! After having a capote that wraps around and a long tailed
wool
>shirt, I much prefer the shirt. If I were to make another capote for
>myself, I would put buttons on it.
>
>Sidney
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide?
Date: 30 Dec 1998 21:30:23 +0000
I would call it a WARM Capote. I won't suppose on the authenticity of
such a comfort, but it sounds cozy. Hardtack
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide?
Date: 30 Dec 1998 21:08:30 -0800
Grasshoppa,
It is my impression that capote is a french word for a general style of winter
coat probably made of wool blanket material. If you want to make a coat of hair
on deer hides in a style consistent with a particular historical era, I only
see one problem. Hair on deer hides are not a great material for making any
garment other than a wall hanging. The problem is that deer hair is hollow and
will break off quit easily with wear or contact with movement. Most friends
(and myself) who have tried using hair on deer hides for sleeping pads, rugs or
seat pads have found that they do not hold up to being touched. My thought is
that after going to all the trouble of making such a garment, one will be
shortly the owner of a coat with spots of hair worn off. Other types of fur do
not exhibit this problem and you will find the same thing will happen with elk
and moose hair on hides. I guess if you used them as a throw over you while
sleeping, they may give some service.
My other thought on your question is that IMHO, this would not be a very
authentic garment for anything later than "Clan of the Cave Bear". But who's to
say. I have never come across a reference to the frontiersman or indian making
a "Coat" of hair on deer hides. Hope this was of help. I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Phil Petersen wrote:
> I have enough deer hides (hair on) to measure the 94'x48' inch suggested
> size once sewn together for a capote. If I made a pattern design out of
> this material would it be considered a capote or what? I would appreciate
> your feed back.
>
> Grasshoppa
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sidney Porter <sidney@htcomp.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 1:09 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
>
> >Kirk, I have a couple of pieces of advice when making a capote. First,
> make
> >sure you have good ventalation while cutting and sewing. The wool makes a
> >lot of lint. It really makes me sneeze. The higher quality the wool, the
> >less it does this, but all will be pretty "dusty".
> >
> >Second, unless you feel like you really need themt, don't put those long
> >ties on the hood. They get caught on everything and end up at the bottom
> of
> >the hooter! After having a capote that wraps around and a long tailed
> wool
> >shirt, I much prefer the shirt. If I were to make another capote for
> >myself, I would put buttons on it.
> >
> >Sidney
> >
> >
> >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lee Cardon" <lcardon@insurquote.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?
Date: 30 Dec 1998 22:21:31 -0700
I have come across some slight reference to hand knit wool sweaters being
in use from 1799 on.
While the word "Sweater" is not used, the words "Jersey" and "Geurnsey" (or
Gansey) are used, and are known to refer to a knitted garment.
Some mention of knitted jersey "Frocks" is made, and almost all reference
to use, points to Seamen of the British Isles. They were probably in use in
Scandanavia as well.
Any thoughts or suggestions on whether a hand knit wool sweater would be of
acceptable authenticity for use in re-enacting the Western Fur Trade era?
how about an earlier era?
Thanks,
-Lee Cardon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "mmorgan" <mmorgan@kanza.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: newhouse traps
Date: 30 Dec 1998 14:31:31 -0800
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3401.18245B00
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi! I just bought a group of traps and one was labeled "newhouse #114". =
It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft. long. I can't read anything on the =
pan and was wondering if this could be the right number as it doesn't =
jibe with the other numbers and sizes I am familiar with. Thanks in =
advance. Michael in Kansas
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3401.18245B00
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi! I just bought a group of traps =
and one was=20
labeled "newhouse #114". It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 =
ft.=20
long. I can't read anything on the pan and was wondering if this =
could be=20
the right number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I =
am=20
familiar with. Thanks in advance. Michael in=20
Kansas</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3401.18245B00--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dale Nelson <dnelson@wizzards.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous calander
Date: 29 Dec 1998 21:05:57 -0800
This message was forwarded to me, I think it's good stuff, and I think a
lot of people on this list will be interested in what he has to offer.
Also those of you interested in dugouts, after you open the rendezvous
page, go to Crasy Wolf's home page, go to photos, and the first couple
on that page are photo's of Babbles at Frog Holler in a nice looking
dugout.
>Fellow Buckskinners,
>
>I have written a web page for a national list of Black Powder Rendezvous.
>The way it works is this. I have a database that contains information
>about rendezvous. The website allows users to select a month and a state,
>and then gives them a list of rendezvous for their selection. From this
>list, clicking on a particular rendezvous will take them to a page of
>further details about that rendezvous. You will notice that there are
>only a few states in the "State" select button. When a event is entered
>with a new state, the state is automatically entered into the select
>button. This way users will not waste their time looking for entries in a
>state that don't exist.
>
>Anyone can enter their rendezvous into the database over the Web. The
>rendezvous are written to a temporary database so I can review them, make
>data type corrections and put them into the main database. This step
>allows
>me to keep bad entries out of the main database such as we might get from
>kids messing around. It seems like most clubs have a computer person.
>Clubs should designate one person to make entries to the list and maintain
>them, (changing dates from year to year, or changing the persons in
>charge). Only myself and the person that submits an entry can edit that
>entry.
>
>At present, the list contains a bunch of rendezvous from 1998. I entered
>these from a written list that is distributed around Southern Oregon and
>Northern California. If one of these rendezvous is yours, enter in your
>listing for next year and I will remove the old listing. Or e-mail me and
>I will put a username and password in that event so you can access it from
>the edit page. I am leaving the old listings in for a while so people can
>see how the list works.
>
>Please check out the list and send this e-mail to any buckskinners you
>know. The list could grow into a useful tool for buckskinners all over the
>States.
>
>Thanks, Crazy Wolf
>
>http://eddie.grrtech.com/rendezvous/calendar
>
> eddie@grrtech.com
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RR1LA@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide?
Date: 31 Dec 1998 02:05:42 EST
hang that hair-on hide on the wall. the hairs will break with movement or
rubbing as they are hollow. skins of fur-bearers, rather than hair-on hides
could be used to make a coat that would hold up and keep you way warmer. ask
any raccoon or buffalo <grin> yhs, BPFife
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bishnow <bishnows@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: newhouse traps
Date: 31 Dec 1998 04:18:25 -0600
mmorgan wrote:
>
> Hi! I just bought a group of traps and one was labeled "newhouse
> #114". It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft. long. I can't read
> anything on the pan and was wondering if this could be the right
> number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I am
> familiar with. Thanks in advance. Michael in Kans
I am not familiar with a #114, I haven't used many steel traps.
However, Fur,Fish and Game magazine has people you can write to
on such subjects. It's a pretty good magazine too.
I don't have an address but I do have a phone number,614-231-9585.
Good Luck
Snakeshot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bishnow <bishnows@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide?
Date: 31 Dec 1998 04:27:05 -0600
Phil Petersen wrote:
>
> I have enough deer hides (hair on) to measure the 94'x48' inch suggested
> size once sewn together for a capote. If I made a pattern design out of
> this material would it be considered a capote or what? I would appreciate
> your feed back.
>
> Grasshoppa
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sidney Porter <sidney@htcomp.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 1:09 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes
>
> >Kirk, I have a couple of pieces of advice when making a capote. First,
> make
> >sure you have good ventalation while cutting and sewing. The wool makes a
> >lot of lint. It really makes me sneeze. The higher quality the wool, the
> >less it does this, but all will be pretty "dusty".
> >
> >Second, unless you feel like you really need themt, don't put those long
> >ties on the hood. They get caught on everything and end up at the bottom
> of
> >the hooter! After having a capote that wraps around and a long tailed
> wool
> >shirt, I much prefer the shirt. If I were to make another capote for
> >myself, I would put buttons on it.
> >
> >Sidney
> >
> >
> >
I would not want to get caught in the woods with the hair side
out. somebody might want to shoot it for supper. It will make
a pretty good bow quiver but you will wear bald spots in it.
For bow quivers it works best if it is bark tanned or lined
with cow hide or something tougher than the deer hide.
Snakeshot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: newhouse traps
Date: 31 Dec 1998 07:03:10 -0700
The address is: FUR-FISH-GAME, 2878 East Main St., Columbus, OH 43209
Nice people to deal with and will probably be very helpful, plus a very good
magazine.
Buck
_______________________
-----Original Message-----
>mmorgan wrote:
>>
>> Hi! I just bought a group of traps and one was labeled "newhouse
>> #114". It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft. long. I can't read
>> anything on the pan and was wondering if this could be the right
>> number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I am
>> familiar with. Thanks in advance. Michael in Kans
>
>I am not familiar with a #114, I haven't used many steel traps.
>However, Fur,Fish and Game magazine has people you can write to
>on such subjects. It's a pretty good magazine too.
>I don't have an address but I do have a phone number,614-231-9585.
>
>Good Luck
>Snakeshot
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry Conner" <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?
Date: 31 Dec 1998 07:18:10 -0700
Lee,
If you check your coastal seamen history you'll find that the New England
states had knitting mills and the Rev. War sailors wore knitted sweaters, I
will look I have a pattern around here that we use to use when doing that
period that was gotten from one of the boat museums in MASS. I had talked to
Charles E. Hanson Jr (Museum of the Fur Trade), and he felt that such an
item and the skills were in St. Louis by the War of 1812, so as far as going
west would think that's a possibility.
Later
Buck
_______________-
-----Original Message-----
>I have come across some slight reference to hand knit wool sweaters being
>in use from 1799 on.
>
>While the word "Sweater" is not used, the words "Jersey" and "Geurnsey" (or
>Gansey) are used, and are known to refer to a knitted garment.
>
>Some mention of knitted jersey "Frocks" is made, and almost all reference
>to use, points to Seamen of the British Isles. They were probably in use in
>Scandanavia as well.
>
>Any thoughts or suggestions on whether a hand knit wool sweater would be of
>acceptable authenticity for use in re-enacting the Western Fur Trade era?
>how about an earlier era?
>
>
>Thanks,
>-Lee Cardon
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: guernsey froks
Date: 31 Dec 1998 10:34:59 +0100
Guernsey frocks were indeed knitted wool upper
body garments that we would call sweaters today.
They were prominently associated with
seararers/fishermen from the Gurnsey Island and so
received that name. I do not know when they were
earliest used. They were clearly available in
this country (whether made here or abroad) in the
early 19th century and moreover were definately
available in the west. We found records of a
number of sales of guernsey frocks to mountain men
types at Ft Hall in the mid-1830s. There is more
information about these garments in the piece I
co-authored on trapper clothing in the BOB VII.
If you are interested you should check it out.
Most of the descriptions and photos of 19th
century guernsey frocks show a long sleeve, "crew
neck" about waist length or slightly longer
pull-over garment. The prevalent color seems to
have been dark--blue or black. Some refernces to
horizontal stripes can be found, and these may
have been more popular with sailors. An excellent
modern replication is the Fillson Fisherman's
Sweater. It is dark blue and very tightly and
heavily knitted of worsted. They are pricey but
very high quality and made in USA. I just got one
for Christmas and plan to use in on my next winter
event (which, up north here, is any time other
than mid-July).
Allen Chronister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TetonTod@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?
Date: 31 Dec 1998 17:13:37 EST
Lee,
You have no doubt read Beth Gilguns article in the latest Muzzleloader by now.
I think it pretty well answers your question about the common use of knit
items. I was astounded at how many knit stockings were available. I still
wonder how much woolen knit materials were brought "upriver" or to rendezvous.
Perhaps some of our inventory and trade list experts amoung the group can give
some answers.
Happy New Year Mate!
Todd
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Verlin Kinsey" <verlinkinsey@hotmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Was Capotes now Book of Buckskinning
Date: 31 Dec 1998 15:13:08 PST
Even better is the auction on ebay that ends tomorrow. Item# 51551744
Volumns 1-4 of the Book of Buckskinning Currently less than $30.00 for
the set.
Verlin
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lee Cardon" <lcardon@insurquote.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey?
Date: 31 Dec 1998 18:30:15 -0700
For a pilgrim,sure. But it would last only about a year,then what? I
haven't
seen knitted goods in the trade inventories and natives DID NOT knit,so for
a hivernant,I would say other than possibly a tuque(voyageurs cap) I doubt
that knit sweaters,etc. were common.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
Jeff,
There is evidence of native knitting. The Northwest pacific tribes have a
knitting heritage, and the Salish specifically have a rich knitting
tradition,
the problem being... documenting the time frame that "We" are interested
in.
That is kind of another can of worms though, anybody out there have any
further info on aboriginal knitting habits, items, etc. ?
A sweater on the frontier would certainly not be common, (glad to see
reference made by Allen in previous post to sales of Geurnsey Frocks at
Fort Hall, in the appropriate time period) but as a person were to enter a
fort or some other civilized or semi-civilized area, a Frock might be found
in more common use either because of availability, or possibly because in a
fort or town, storage of clothing would be a lot easier. Knowing what we
know about socks, hats, gloves/mittens and the like being so widely
available, it is just curious to me that there is not more mention of knit
garments.
This sweater question keeps bugging me because I have a suspicion that knit
frocks were more common than previously thought, but I'm out on a limb
because of the low volume of documentation on this item.
I don't have a fully developed personna, but I would start by having some
ocean travel or work in my background, and Salish side-seam moccasins on my
feet, any contact with a tribe, or travel though a trading post that would
have sweaters available, might catch the eye of a salty trapper.
No matter how much of a pilgrim or hivernant you may or may not be, you
will agree that on a cool night, a thick geurnsey frock would be "Another
kind of Comfort" !
Happy New Year,
Lee Cardon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Richards" <backcountry@braintan.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Hair-on deer hides
Date: 31 Dec 1998 19:29:43 -0700
Many if not most Native tribes west of the bison area made hair-on deer
robes for sleeping and to throw over their shoulders for warmth. This is
documented from early points of contact and from specimens .... though none
that I know of were made into coats or capotes, just blankets and skirts
(men's skirts in N. California).
What Captain Lahti said about deer hides shedding lots of hair is true for
winter hides but there is an exception.
The trick with hair-on deer and similar animals is to use the skins of ones
harvested with a very early winter coat. The hair at this point is thick,
fairly short, and not yet hollow. It does not have the same brittleness
problems that winter hides have. Where we live in Montana the hunting season
is too late for this, but the hunting season occurs perfectly during this
timing in western Oregon and N. California.....generally about October.
Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: JW Stephens <johns@primarycolor.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hugh Glass locale
Date: 31 Dec 1998 20:17:26 -0800
Rereading the epic of Hugh Glass (under Maj. Henry 1823, chewed by
"grissly bear" and left to die in the care of Fitzgerald and Bridger,
abandoned) I decided to check the locale closely on a modern map. I was
surprised to find that the area of the mauling, which Dale Morgan gives
as 350 miles from Fort Kiowa, up the Grand River, is near an area of
North Dakota where I cut wheat during the summer of 1974. I recall the
area around Reeder and Hettinger, North Dakota as vast rolling prairie,
not the mountains I had pictured in my mind. Since '74 is a long way
away, for me, and I hadn't the leisure to roam the area complete, I was
hoping 'nother reader of this fine list is more familiar with the area
than I be.
If so, could you fill us in on what the area is like, and any more
details of the incident?
BTW, re: the boats thread ... some relevant pix pg 341-345 Carl P.
Russell, Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men.
--
JW "LRay" Stephens, Squadron Commander; Lobo Solo Squadron
EPP Technician, Primary Color Systems, Inc., Irvine, CA
...
ICQ# 20564775 "mean people suck"