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Internet Message Format | 1998-11-29 | 600KB

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cap to Flint conversion
Date: 31 Oct 1998 14:21:57 -0500

As y'all may remember, I was tryin to convert a Traditions Hawken to a
flinter.... Traditions said it couldn't be done, but I done did it... heh!!
Shoots great and sparks nice too... Hey.. Traditions...
ppppppffffffffttttttttt...... :))  NEVER tell me something can't be done...
cause this ol' Navy Chief will prove you wrong...

Thanks List Members for all the help and advise y'all sent me... really came
in handy, and thanks THUNDER RIDGE MUZZLE LOADING for the parts...

SeanBear
aka Addison Miller
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216 (Ronnyvous)

Addison Miller



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos
Date: 31 Oct 1998 16:57:21 -0500

Ho the list,


To try to answer a number of questions that have been posted in the last day
or so:

The Mystic Seaport museum is located in Mystic, Connecticut. They have a web
site but I don't know what its address is. A search will locate it.

Gutta percha is the sap of the gutta-percha tree (isonadra gutta) which is
native to Indonesia. It is a milky white substance very much like latex
which comes from the rubber tree (hevea brasiliensis),  native to Brazil but
grown widely in Southeast Asia in plantations. In the eighteenth and
nineteenth centuries, both gutta percha and latex from rubber trees were
used for the same purposes, often related to maritime or naval stores
(sailcloth, waterproofing, etc.). There is little to distinguish between
products in which gutta percha was used from those in which rubber latex was
used and both products were widely in use by the 1700s. The reason we hear
more about rubber and less about gutta percha is that the hevea (rubber)
tree was more adaptable to plantation growth and became the primary supplier
of latex by 1800.

Oakum is, as has been noted, hemp. Normally it is produced by pulling apart
rope made from hemp (as opposed to ropes made from flax). If the rope is
untreated (not tarred), the resulting substance is referred to as "white
oakum". "Regular" oakum is darker-colored, tarry, because it comes from
treated or tarred ropes.

I have seen brass grommets in use on late 18th century sails and sailcloth.
I assume, therefore, that they were used in tarps in the 19th century as
well.

There are many interesting connections beween the products of the maritime
trade (fishing, whaling, merchant marine) and those of the Rocky Mountain
fur trade era.

John L. Allen

-----Original Message-----


>John C Funk wrote:
>>
>
>>  What was "India rubber"?
>
> Narcissa says, "Our table is the ground, our tablecloth is an Indian
>rubber cloth used when it rains as a cloak."  This is in a letter
>written June 4th, 1836 on the Platte and which I got from "Rocky
>Mountain Rendezous" by Fred Gowans.  Some place she also mentions
>gutta-percha cloth.  My 1911 Websters Dictionary says gutta-percha is "a
>reddish-brown horn-like substance; the inspissated juice of the
>gutta-percha tree (Isonandra gutta) of the Malay Archipelago."  I looked
>up inspissated, which is,  "To thicken by boiling or evaporation."
> Is this what we would call a rubber tree?  Is gutta-percha cloth and
>Indian rubber cloth the same thing? or is it two different types of
>water proof cloth?  They also had oil cloth which is canvass treated
>with linseed oil? except when I was a kid -- born 100 years after 1836,
>at least my family called oil cloth a rubber coated cloth that was
>spread on the ground when we went on a picnic?
> John Kramer was did a post on grommets.  Canvass was used for the
>engines of ships before Christ was born.  Sail makers whip stiched
>grommets in sails for centuries, and I'd bet that when metal grommets
>were first used some sailor was trying to figure a way to make a sail
>last longer.  I'd also bet that the first use of India rubber cloth was
>at sea, and perhaps a good place to start research on this type of thing
>would be the Mystic Seaport museum in New England.  Sorry, I don't
>remember the state or town where it's located, but someone out there
>should know.
> One last thing on grommets.  I met a guy that located a site of a ferry
>and store that was pre civil war/gold rush era.  This doesn't prove a
>thing, but it's something to think about.  I amongst the artifacts that
>he found using his metal detector was a pattern of brass grommets that
>suggested that a canvass tarp had laid on the ground and rotted away.
>Somebody could have camped there years later, and left the tarp, but
>it's something to think about.
> DN
>



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From: Gene Knutti <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole
Date: 31 Oct 1998 17:05:21 -0800

I'm new to the list, this is my first try at this. Hopefully i'm doing this
right. Anyone know where exactly the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place. I
have read that it was about 8 miles southeast of the rendezvous site. What
I'm getting out of the information that it was probably near where State
highway 31 crosses the mountain to Swan Valley. Anybody have any other
information? I'm right or wrong. Thanks  Gene



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tinning/"Oakum"
Date: 31 Oct 1998 20:11:25 EST

Hola, one and all!  I seem  to recollect that oakum is a hemp product; used in
caulking decks on ships, etc.   Also, used to this day by farriers, who will
pack the space between the sole of the hoof and the pad that is sometimes
installed for elevation, animation or medication.  Also, pads are often used
for wintertravel, to prevent snow and ice to fill, and become impacted in the
sole of hoof.  Which in turn, keeps yer pony from walkin on oversized
snowballs/icecubes.  Mostly used to prevent debris from collecting between pad
and sole of hoof.

Anyway, centaur forge carries oakum, if ye care to call'um.  great catalog,
including books and videos on many skills, including tinsmithing.

                            adios-  Pappy





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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fitzpatrick
Date: 31 Oct 1998 20:38:55 EST

Howz about geo-thermal acitvity?  Sound exotic?  maybe.  But I have a couple
of experiences on this one, so gather round...  if'n ye can stomach the
details:

1)  I was in Hawaii once, visited many volcanoes, lava tubes, etc.  On the
very crumbly edge of Mauna Loa, I stood peerin into the swirlin grey vapours
and black pit of the womb of creation isself!  Many awesome things come out of
that Mother of the Big Isle-  amonst which is heat (natch..), but also toxic
fumes (or `bad spirits', `noxious vapours, if 'n you prefer).  Not long ago, a
couple of prominent volcanologist died of this.  It's not constant, you see,
but intermittent; and unpredictable.  Anyhoo, the description of the symptoms
brought the memory back to me from 30yrs back.  I can attest to those
symptoms; I nearly lost conciousness on the very edge of Mauna Loa.

2)  I live in southern California;  on the entire western edge of the great
basin is a LOT of geo thermal action.  Many, many hostsprings from southern,
all the way into
far northern california.  Nevada too.  Earthquakes, & geo thermal action go
hand&hand out here.  King's beach in Lake Tahoe just had a temblor a coupla
days ago.  That's at 6,547' or there abouts.  Point:  Great Basin has plenty
of action, that way.  Where was fitzpatrick, when this happened?

Lastly, Bein' 5th generation so. californian, earthquakes don't seem so
strange...
just try to shake, rattle an' roll w/ it.  but the following  from the '94
quake got my attention:  'bout 20 minutes after, spectatin' on all the damage:
broken gas lines, water mains,  4th story apt.s turned into patios.  I look in
the still night sky to the south, and see a huge blue-bright flash an'
methinks a power plant has gone in a blaze of glory.  But, nothing in the news
on it for days.  Turns out it was `earthquake lightning':  excess energy
expelled from the crust, in the form of a F  L  A  S  H.

anyhoo, somethings to ponder....  pappy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fitzpatrick
Date: 31 Oct 1998 21:34:55 EST

Steve,

That story was reported by William Marshall Anderson on August 9, 1834.  He
was retelling something that Fitzpatrick told him.  The information you read
in Leroy Hafen's "Broken Hand," (Old West Publishing, Denver, 1973 pg. 81), is
from Anderson's diary, written while on the trail.  Anderson also made two re-
writes of his diary, one referred to as a narrative and one referred to as a
journal.  The journal covers his entire trip while the narrative covers only a
portion of the trip.

The journal entry for the same date reads "When Mr. Fitzpatrick was encamped
at the forks of the Wind River he experienced a simoom (sic) or something
similar - On 20th June the sun became red, the atmosphere was substantialised
and bore a dull, hazy appearance, and the heat was so intense that his eyes
felt as if they would have melted out of their sockets - Where the gusty wind
touched the unprotected skin it crisped or blistered - His lungs
notwithstanding the hot air circulated, laboured as tho he were gasping in an
empty receiver." ("Rocky Mountain Jounrals of William Marshall Anderson: The
West in 1834," Dale Morgan and Eleanor T. Harris, Huntington Library, San
Marino, CA, 1967. pg. 176 -77)

WORLDBOOK encyclopedia describes a "simoom" as a hot, dry wind that blows in
desert regions carrying great clouds of sand and dust.  It rises suddenly and
people or animals may suffer from heat stroke when they are exposed to one.
Simooms may pass in ten minutes or last for days.  Simooms are caused by the
overheating of the soil and the layers of air nest to it.

David Jackson had sent Fitzpatrick, presumably by himself, to find William
Sublette in order to direct Sublette to a meeting with Jackson farther west.
This hot wind storm cropped up near where the Wind meets the Bighorn.  While
not exactly desert, this is a fairly flat, dry region.  My opinion (for what
it may be worth) is that Fitzpatrick experienced a localized wind storm
similar to the funnel-cloud-like "dust devils" frequently seen in flat open
areas and he embelished the tale a bit for his greenhorn audience.  This would
also explain why no one else (that I've seen) has recorded any general
atmospheric disturbances for that date.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1671
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos
Date: 31 Oct 1998 19:23:33 -0800

I am certainly not impugning any ones product, merely interested in
original, historically accurate, fur trade related items.

John Funk

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:gutta-percha
Date: 01 Nov 1998 00:54:09 EST

Believe it or not, golf balls were made of gutta-percha as early as 1845.
Reverend Robert A. Patterson made the first one from a lump of brown, hand-
rolled gutta-percha and by 1848, these were rapidly replacing the golf balls
stuffed with feathers.  Gutta-percha is the coagulated juice or latex of
various Malaysian trees. (From Malay getah = gum + percha = the tree producing
it)  Gutta-percha was also used as a dental filling and to insulate early
telegraph wires in the 19th century. By 1852, the gum was sometimes simply
called "gutta."  (Flexner, Stuart B., "Listening to America; an Illustrated
History of Wods and Phrases From Our Lively and Splendid Past." Simon &
Schister, NY  1982. pg. 264)

Jim Hardee, AMM #1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos
Date: 01 Nov 1998 09:32:20 EST

I don't know what a mangas is but we used to keep rubber gaskets and boots
plyable by using glycerin on them.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax
Date: 01 Nov 1998 09:36:51 EST

What's so important about getting the bee parts out, except for maybe lining a
beverage container?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gene Knutti <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole
Date: 01 Nov 1998 16:09:28 -0800

I'm new to the list, this is my first try at this. Hopefully i'm doing this
right. Anyone know where exactly the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place. I
have read that it was about 8 miles southeast of the rendezvous site. What
I'm getting out of the information that it was probably near where State
highway 31 crosses the mountain to Swan Valley. Anybody have any other
information? I'm right or wrong. Thanks  Gene

Did some more checking with Bonneville's account of the battle I was wrong
they proceeded to the southwest towards the pass which crosses over to
Jackson Hole




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cap to Flint conversion
Date: 01 Nov 1998 21:27:29 -0500

Addison Miller wrote:
>
> As y'all may remember, I was tryin to convert a Traditions Hawken to a
> flinter.... Traditions said it couldn't be done, but I done did it... heh!!
> Shoots great and sparks nice too... Hey.. Traditions...
> ppppppffffffffttttttttt...... :))  NEVER tell me something can't be done...
> cause this ol' Navy Chief will prove you wrong...
>
> Thanks List Members for all the help and advise y'all sent me... really came
> in handy, and thanks THUNDER RIDGE MUZZLE LOADING for the parts...

Bob's a good man, but don't like to tell him that very often though.<g>

Fred





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole
Date: 01 Nov 1998 18:49:00 -0800

Gene,

Somthing is wrong here because Jacksons Hole is to the east of Pierres' Hole.
Look at a map to be sure. I remain a bit confused too....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Gene Knutti wrote:

> I'm new to the list, this is my first try at this. Hopefully i'm doing this
> right. Anyone know where exactly the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place. I
> have read that it was about 8 miles southeast of the rendezvous site. What
> I'm getting out of the information that it was probably near where State
> highway 31 crosses the mountain to Swan Valley. Anybody have any other
> information? I'm right or wrong. Thanks  Gene
>
> Did some more checking with Bonneville's account of the battle I was wrong
> they proceeded to the southwest towards the pass which crosses over to
> Jackson Hole






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fitzpatrick
Date: 01 Nov 1998 23:40:08 -0500

Ho the list,

Clarification in the posting below:

There is no place "where the Wind meets the Bighorn." In one of the
strangest geographic naming conventions ever, the Wind River, after passing
through the Wind River Canyon, simply becomes the Big Horn River. There is
no junction with another stream--the name of the river simply changes. This
"wedding of the waters" is just south of Thermopolis, WY. The Big Horn was
seen from the north and named by William Clark (1806) following a French
name probably attached to the stream in the 1790s. John Colter and George
Drouillard (c. 1809) were on the Big Horn and referred to it by that name.
The Wind River was named by Wilson Price Hunt (1810) who used its valley to
cross Union Pass during the westbound Astorian's trek. It wasn't until the
early 1830s that it became generally known that the two were the same river
(although I'll bet the early mountain men knew--even if the mapmakers
didn't). Rather than rename the whole stream, the decision was made
(essentially by the mountain men) to call the river the Big Horn below the
canyon, and the Wind River above.

The "forks of the Wind" that Anderson refers to is probably the junction of
the Popo Agie and Little Wind River with the Wind River, south of the town
site of Riverton, WY.

I would agree that the phenomenon was probably a localized "dust devil",
very common in this area of intense convectional heating in the summer
months. I've been caught in them on horseback and the feeling is not unlike
that related by Fitzpatrick.

John Allen

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


-----Original Message-----


>Steve,
>
>That story was reported by William Marshall Anderson on August 9, 1834.  He
>was retelling something that Fitzpatrick told him.  The information you
read
>in Leroy Hafen's "Broken Hand," (Old West Publishing, Denver, 1973 pg. 81),
is
>from Anderson's diary, written while on the trail.  Anderson also made two
re-
>writes of his diary, one referred to as a narrative and one referred to as
a
>journal.  The journal covers his entire trip while the narrative covers
only a
>portion of the trip.
>
>The journal entry for the same date reads "When Mr. Fitzpatrick was
encamped
>at the forks of the Wind River he experienced a simoom (sic) or something
>similar - On 20th June the sun became red, the atmosphere was
substantialised
>and bore a dull, hazy appearance, and the heat was so intense that his eyes
>felt as if they would have melted out of their sockets - Where the gusty
wind
>touched the unprotected skin it crisped or blistered - His lungs
>notwithstanding the hot air circulated, laboured as tho he were gasping in
an
>empty receiver." ("Rocky Mountain Jounrals of William Marshall Anderson:
The
>West in 1834," Dale Morgan and Eleanor T. Harris, Huntington Library, San
>Marino, CA, 1967. pg. 176 -77)
>
>WORLDBOOK encyclopedia describes a "simoom" as a hot, dry wind that blows
in
>desert regions carrying great clouds of sand and dust.  It rises suddenly
and
>people or animals may suffer from heat stroke when they are exposed to one.
>Simooms may pass in ten minutes or last for days.  Simooms are caused by
the
>overheating of the soil and the layers of air nest to it.
>
>David Jackson had sent Fitzpatrick, presumably by himself, to find William
>Sublette in order to direct Sublette to a meeting with Jackson farther
west.
>This hot wind storm cropped up near where the Wind meets the Bighorn.
While
>not exactly desert, this is a fairly flat, dry region.  My opinion (for
what
>it may be worth) is that Fitzpatrick experienced a localized wind storm
>similar to the funnel-cloud-like "dust devils" frequently seen in flat open
>areas and he embelished the tale a bit for his greenhorn audience.  This
would
>also explain why no one else (that I've seen) has recorded any general
>atmospheric disturbances for that date.
>
>Jim Hardee, AMM#1671
>P.O. Box 1228
>Quincy, CA  95971
>[phone] (H)
>[phone] (W)
>[phone] FAX
>[e-mail]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gene Knutti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole
Date: 01 Nov 1998 22:10:25 -0800

Capt Lahti
That is what I get for not reading close enough, it mentioned that they left
with the intention of heading to the southwest, but instead proceeded 8
miles to the southeast before stopping for the night, which would put them
toward the way over Teton pass.  Sorry about the confusion.
Gene



At 06:49 PM 11/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Gene,
>
>Somthing is wrong here because Jacksons Hole is to the east of Pierres' Hole.
>Look at a map to be sure. I remain a bit confused too....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Gene Knutti wrote:
>
>> I'm new to the list, this is my first try at this. Hopefully i'm doing this
>> right. Anyone know where exactly the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place. I
>> have read that it was about 8 miles southeast of the rendezvous site. What
>> I'm getting out of the information that it was probably near where State
>> highway 31 crosses the mountain to Swan Valley. Anybody have any other
>> information? I'm right or wrong. Thanks  Gene
>>
>> Did some more checking with Bonneville's account of the battle I was wrong
>> they proceeded to the southwest towards the pass which crosses over to
>> Jackson Hole
>
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole
Date: 01 Nov 1998 23:37:34 -0700

Gene,

At 05:05 PM 10/31/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I'm new to the list, this is my first try at this. Hopefully i'm doing this
>right. Anyone know where exactly the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place. I
>have read that it was about 8 miles southeast of the rendezvous site. What
>I'm getting out of the information that it was probably near where State
>highway 31 crosses the mountain to Swan Valley. Anybody have any other
>information? I'm right or wrong. Thanks  Gene
>
Warren Ferris' journal puts the fight in the south end of the valley along
the Teton River.  I drove by there this summer and the area follows the
general description of the fight and distance from the rendezvous.

I've got a paper beating around here someplace that details it.  Get ahold
of me privately and I'll try and get it for you.

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fur recipes
Date: 02 Nov 1998 02:37:19 EST

In a message dated 98-10-28 23:25:52 EST, you write:

<< Unfortunately I don't know how to turn them into furs. There are leather
 tanning skills here, but not fur ones. Does anyone have a basic recipe
 that will not require any fancy chemicals that I won't be able to get
 here? >>

The brain tan method should work -- just don't use ashes on the hide to
loosten the hair.  If memory serves, McPhereson's book "Brain Tan Buckskin"
covers the "hair on" method as well as "hair off".  Just requires a bit more
work to get the brain solution to fully penetrate from only one side.  With
rabbit skins, it shouldn't be too much problem because they're relatively thin
when compared to deer or elk hides.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax
Date: 02 Nov 1998 05:15:01 -0800 (PST)


The "Bee Parts" can spoil, thus making everything taste bad.



[e-mail] wrote:
>
> What's so important about getting the bee parts out, except for
maybe lining a
> beverage container?
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear
Date: 02 Nov 1998 09:40:00 EST

Interested in your coments on underwear.  There are detailed discriptions of
male underwear even in the Bible, so no dout the males had underwear.  But
there are many  ladies at our rendezvous.  In reality they wouldn't have been
there at all in 1830, but they are here now.  What about our, their underwear.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: john funk--rubber questions
Date: 02 Nov 1998 09:23:03 +0100

John:
You must have mistaken me for an encyclopeadia or
something.  I don't have the answers to the
questions you last posed about the details of
early 19th century manufacture of rubber goods.
This is just like much of the stuff I come up
with, in that any individual item could result in
hours of research, and if you have a list of maybe
100 such items, life just gets too short.
I can't think of anything I've said that would
endorse wearing yellow rubber raincoats in a pre
1840 setting, but if I did then everybody
disregard it.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear
Date: 02 Nov 1998 11:06:00 -0700

I have read articles when the Buckskin Report (John Baird - fur trade) was
still available, along with articles by Charles E.Hanson, Jr.(Museum of the
Fur Trade - fur trade), Vernon L. Bigsby (Valley Forge Museum - pre Rev.
War) and one from Colorado Historical Society (1849'ers and into the Civil
War), will have to look for exact information and get back to you. But all
of the articles mentioned were about period male under garments.

As I remember their were no one piece "union" suits as seen at outing today,
the pre Rev War garments were like night shirts split front and back to slid
down the breeches, the fur trade depending on early or late were: night
shirt style - early being split or solid (solid being shirt tail pulled
between legs to the front and front being tucked to the rear) seems to be a
good load in the seat of one's pants? The late garments were straight leg
bloomer style with a long tailed shirt - no collar.

Hanson felt that they, (the under garment) may have lasted the first winter
and were used for repair of other garments afterwards. He felt that this was
an item found not that serviceable in the field, as you would need to almost
get undressed if nature called, not like the "union" suit found a decade or
two later with its back and front access.

I'm sure others will have additional information from their research and I
will look for those articles, have a 4 drawer file cabinet with information
collected for 40 years.

Buck

-----Original Message-----


>Interested in your coments on underwear.  There are detailed discriptions
of
>male underwear even in the Bible, so no dout the males had underwear.  But
>there are many  ladies at our rendezvous.  In reality they wouldn't have
been
>there at all in 1830, but they are here now.  What about our, their
underwear.
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 02 Nov 1998 13:39:51 EST

Ho the list,
Have been following the lines on growing and preparing gourds. I missed how to
dry out the gourds before sealing with wax. I've heard you have to drill a
couple holes in the bottom to let the moisture out and prevent the gourd from
rotting. Would just cutting off a couple inches of the neck work? And if I
must punch holes in it, does it matter where?
Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 02 Nov 1998 14:00:42 -0500

Don't punch any holes. Just hang them up in a cool, dry place and let nature
do its thing. I have found that if you hang them in the fall, they are ready
to work on in the spring (this is in PA).  Then I cut the top off and use a
piece of wire to loosen the seeds. After I get most of them out, I throw in
some pebbles and shake it to loosen the rest. When the inside is clean, I
steel wool the outside to bring out the pattern and give it a coat of
shellac. Then I seal the inside with melted paraffin. My last step is to sew
a piece of wet rawhide around the neck to give me something to attach a
thong to. Add a cork and your done.
Kirk Mill


    Have been following the lines on growing and preparing gourds. I
missed how to
    dry out the gourds before sealing with wax. I've heard you have to
drill a
    couple holes in the bottom to let the moisture out and prevent the
gourd from
    rotting. Would just cutting off a couple inches of the neck work?
And if I
    must punch holes in it, does it matter where?
    Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear
Date: 02 Nov 1998 14:01:42 EST


In a message dated 11/2/98 10:12:47 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<

Hanson felt that they, (the under garment) may have lasted the first winter

and were used for repair of other garments afterwards. He felt that this was

an item found not that serviceable in the field,>>

Haaa... I had a buddy that was a guide in Alaska and you could almost tell how
long he had been in the woods by how much of his undershirt was left. Seems
whenever "nature called" he'd be out of paper and rather than using leaves and
tundra, he'd just cut off a piece of his shirt!  Hell... I can remember him
coming back to town with just his collar left......



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 02 Nov 1998 16:33:24 -0600 (CST)

What timing!!  I just harvested this year's crop of gourds yesterday.  I
usually wait till the first freeze, but we've had too much wet weather
lately, and this is the time the vines should be drying in preparation for
harvesting.  Too much moisture this late could be bad for them.  (I lost a
few of them in the last couple of weeks)

The key is keep them dry and allow air circulation.  I use a couple of mesh
laundry bags and hang them up in my shed.  That gives them good circulation
and keeps the dogs and critters away.  In our climate (West Texas) it won't
take very long to dry them, maybe a month or two, depending on how dry we
are.  If you have some that broke or softened on the vine, you can still
salvage the seeds.

Cheers,
HBC

>Ho the list,
>Have been following the lines on growing and preparing gourds. I missed how to
>dry out the gourds before sealing with wax. I've heard you have to drill a
>couple holes in the bottom to let the moisture out and prevent the gourd from
>rotting. Would just cutting off a couple inches of the neck work? And if I
>must punch holes in it, does it matter where?
>Steve

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matt Despain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole
Date: 02 Nov 1998 16:57:29 -0500

Dear Gene:

Yes the general area of the battle was near the area where Teton Pass
enters into the old Pierre's Hole. The exact sight is not known.  You can't
trust Washington Irving's account fully since we don't know what he added
or left out of Bonneville's original manuscript.  But there are indications
that it occured near a marshy zone, which if you look on todays USGS maps
is up the canyon a ways and which corresponds to the historic path that
existed north of the modern highway there (you can see this natural defile
on the USGSmap too).  I have heared rumor of an archeological dig to be
done up there, perhaps much the same as was done at the Little Bighorn
Battlefield in the 1980s.  Until then we just don'd know for certain.

Matt Despain
University of Oklahoma



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear
Date: 02 Nov 1998 17:14:56 -0600

Barry Conner wrote:
>
> I have read articles when the Buckskin Report (John Baird - fur trade) was
> still available, along with articles by Charles E.Hanson, Jr.(Museum of the
> Fur Trade - fur trade), Vernon L. Bigsby (Valley Forge Museum - pre Rev.
> War) and one from Colorado Historical Society (1849'ers and into the Civil
> War), will have to look for exact information and get back to you. But all
> of the articles mentioned were about period male under garments.
>
> As I remember their were no one piece "union" suits as seen at outing today,
> the pre Rev War garments were like night shirts split front and back to slid
> down the breeches, the fur trade depending on early or late were: night
> shirt style - early being split or solid (solid being shirt tail pulled
> between legs to the front and front being tucked to the rear) seems to be a
> good load in the seat of one's pants? The late garments were straight leg
> bloomer style with a long tailed shirt - no collar.
>
> Hanson felt that they, (the under garment) may have lasted the first winter
> and were used for repair of other garments afterwards. He felt that this was
> an item found not that serviceable in the field, as you would need to almost
> get undressed if nature called, not like the "union" suit found a decade or
> two later with its back and front access.
>
> I'm sure others will have additional information from their research and I
> will look for those articles, have a 4 drawer file cabinet with information
> collected for 40 years.
>
> Buck
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 7:46 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear
>
> >Interested in your coments on underwear.  There are detailed discriptions
> of
> >male underwear even in the Bible, so no dout the males had underwear.  But
> >there are many  ladies at our rendezvous.  In reality they wouldn't have
> been
> >there at all in 1830, but they are here now.  What about our, their
> underwear.
> >
> >
   Terrel DeWald a brother from Amarillo once told me that the
mountain man wore calico as underwear. He said he got the info
from an original journal he read somewhere. Anyway he said he
also read an account of a feller getting arrested in a town for
being on the streets in a calico shirt, arrested for indecent
exposure?

Snakeshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 02 Nov 1998 14:43:39 +0000

any of the gourds that I have used were sun dried, with no holes.
Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear
Date: 02 Nov 1998 19:56:49 -0700

Snakeshot,

I think I read something like that years ago, maybe in Buckskin Report and
wondered if this person had someone or even himself make an under garment
from disgarded flour sacks, that was a common source of useable material.
Have seen slips, bloomers and the pockets worn under a women's skirt made of
this material on the east coast in several museums, (Amish,  Quakers, as
well as the Movains were some of the groups that had early clothing shown).

Funny side note to calico linings;
Picked up a Ute wedding dress 20 years ago down in the Four Corners area,
made about 1860 according to old lady selling it, had several look at bead
work and it looked right. My daughter loved it and wore it to the next
rendezvous up at Chadron, she got really upset that a white powder was
coming out of the lining on the inside of the dress. Charles E. Hanson, Jr.
really got a kick out of it, wedding dresses often used the calico flour
sacks for a lining (unwashed so the flour would make the wearer white and
show she was pure).

Interesting to think what would be said if that town saw a modern rendezvous
????

Buck
_______________________________
-----Original Message-----


>Barry Conner wrote:
>>
>> I have read articles when the Buckskin Report (John Baird - fur trade)
was
>> still available, along with articles by Charles E.Hanson, Jr.(Museum of
the
>> Fur Trade - fur trade), Vernon L. Bigsby (Valley Forge Museum - pre Rev.
>> War) and one from Colorado Historical Society (1849'ers and into the
Civil
>> War), will have to look for exact information and get back to you. But
all
>> of the articles mentioned were about period male under garments.
>>
>> As I remember their were no one piece "union" suits as seen at outing
today,
>> the pre Rev War garments were like night shirts split front and back to
slid
>> down the breeches, the fur trade depending on early or late were: night
>> shirt style - early being split or solid (solid being shirt tail pulled
>> between legs to the front and front being tucked to the rear) seems to be
a
>> good load in the seat of one's pants? The late garments were straight leg
>> bloomer style with a long tailed shirt - no collar.
>>
>> Hanson felt that they, (the under garment) may have lasted the first
winter
>> and were used for repair of other garments afterwards. He felt that this
was
>> an item found not that serviceable in the field, as you would need to
almost
>> get undressed if nature called, not like the "union" suit found a decade
or
>> two later with its back and front access.
>>
>> I'm sure others will have additional information from their research and
I
>> will look for those articles, have a 4 drawer file cabinet with
information
>> collected for 40 years.
>>
>> Buck
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 7:46 AM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear
>>
>> >Interested in your coments on underwear.  There are detailed
discriptions
>> of
>> >male underwear even in the Bible, so no dout the males had underwear.
But
>> >there are many  ladies at our rendezvous.  In reality they wouldn't have
>> been
>> >there at all in 1830, but they are here now.  What about our, their
>> underwear.
>> >
>> >
>   Terrel DeWald a brother from Amarillo once told me that the
>mountain man wore calico as underwear. He said he got the info
>from an original journal he read somewhere. Anyway he said he
>also read an account of a feller getting arrested in a town for
>being on the streets in a calico shirt, arrested for indecent
>exposure?
>
>Snakeshot
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Carpenter's" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole
Date: 02 Nov 1998 19:34:01 -0500



Matt Despain wrote:

> Dear Gene:
>
> Yes the general area of the battle was near the area where Teton Pass
> enters into the old Pierre's Hole. The exact sight is not known.  You can't
> trust Washington Irving's account fully since we don't know what he added
> or left out of Bonneville's original manuscript.  But there are indications
> that it occured near a marshy zone, which if you look on todays USGS maps
> is up the canyon a ways and which corresponds to the historic path that
> existed north of the modern highway there (you can see this natural defile
> on the USGSmap too).  I have heared rumor of an archeological dig to be
> done up there, perhaps much the same as was done at the Little Bighorn
> Battlefield in the 1980s.  Until then we just don'd know for certain.
>
> Matt Despain
> University of Oklahoma

Dear List:
In 1989 or 90, while on a trip visiting all the original sites, following
Gowan's book, I went to a museum, or a historical society in, I believe,
Tetonia, ID.  The ladies there sent me over to an elderly Mormon gentleman, who
was then in his nineties.  We didn't know him and he didn't know us.  But, when
we knocked on the screen door, we heard a voice inside say, come on in, without
any introduction or reason for being there. Try that in L.A.  I wrote his name
down in the notes I was taking.  He told me that the fortification breastwork,
from the battle, still existed when he was a kid, growing up in that area.
I'll have my wife try and find these notes, if any one is interested.  She may
know where they are.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Carson
Date: 02 Nov 1998 21:26:55 -0800

Waugh..

    I am going to Taos, NM in March and will take a class about Kit Carson
when he was in the Taos area.
    Please recommend your suggested book: I find many about Carson.
Thanks
Gail Carbiener





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Carson
Date: 02 Nov 1998 21:26:55 -0800

Waugh..

    I am going to Taos, NM in March and will take a class about Kit Carson
when he was in the Taos area.
    Please recommend your suggested book: I find many about Carson.
Thanks
Gail Carbiener





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: reply
Date: 02 Nov 1998 22:55:38 -0800

Allen,
The reference to the rain coats  was tongue-in-cheek.  No, you made no
such inference.  I was just curious to see if you had any in depth
information on the subject matter at hand.  Thanks for your insights.
John Funk

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos
Date: 03 Nov 1998 03:58:16 -0600

John,

Maybe I can help a bit.

India rubber is natural rubber also known as caoutchouc.=A0 There are modern
perversions of the term used to describe other materials; that was not the
case
during our period of interest.

Before processing it is a light cream or dark amber color.=A0 It is the=
 latex
(milky juice) of rubber trees.=A0 It was first polymerized by drying and
coagulation.

I don't have the exact date reference at hand for the first vulcanization of
rubber by Goodyear.=A0 As I remember it would, AT BEST, have been pretty
uncommon
before 1840.=A0=20
Vulcanization only improved strength, flexibility and durability - it also
allowed for very hard rubber which could be cast into combs and such; the
natural rubber was used in much the same ways prior to 1840.=A0 Not nearly=
 so
broadly to so many purposes.

Rubberized cotton canvas of modern manufacture would probably be as close as
anyone could get commercially today.=A0 It wouldn't be much different than=
 what
was made before 1840.=A0 More common today, I would suspect, would be a
synthetic
rubber which should offer no functional difference.=A0 Perhaps better=
 wearing
qualities.

I have encountered references to "rubber sheeting" to date I have not
determined if it referred to rubberized cloth or thin sheets of natural
rubber;
or both.=A0 I have not had any rubber I was certain was not vulcanized to
determine if would have the strength for use in pure sheets to be practical.=
=20
Then again I haven't spent a lot of time researching rubber and rubber=
 goods.=20
I am unaware of existing examples and suspect it all rotted away.

Unless used with great care waterproof goods will condense lots of water=
 where
you may not want it.=A0 Often more than if you used untreated canvas.=A0 I=
 would
suspect the most common use for rubberized cloth or oil treated canvas would
have been for protecting goods from weather - where condensation would not
be a
problem.=A0 For example for bundling goods sealed in a cache.  Or packing
foodstuffs on a mule.

I have not encountered exact reference to colors finished goods may have=
 been
traded in, most recipes call for black or brown pigment.=A0 Yellow would=
 have
been possible though not nearly as bright as the items you mention.=A0=
 Yellow
Ochre --- maybe.=20

I have recipes that call for "rubberizing/waterproofing" many materials
including canvas, cotton, linen, hemp and leather; many call for caoutchouc.

I am not presently aware of a source for pure natural India rubber.

Do any of the Lewis & Clark researchers out there have any specifics as to=
 the
rubber goods they carried?=A0 Unless I'm remembering wrong they had a rubber
boat.=A0 If so, has anyone found out how it was built?=A0=20

Rubber goods would have been expensive.=A0 It would be heavy to transport or=
 to
carry.=A0 I doubt it was widely used.=A0 Oilcloth would be lighter and=
 cheaper and
I suspect not much more common.=A0 Why uncommon?=A0 Because there aren't=
 many
references.=A0 Allan's Fort Hall find is significant I doubt they saved=
 samples
or recorded much detail.=A0 Damn.

John...


At 08:00 PM 10/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Alan,
>
>As usual, your information is invaluable and knowledge abounds.=A0=20
>However, I fear that certain generalizations may prove misleading to the
>novice amongst us. The fact that "vulcanized'" cloth/rubber garments
>existed within the fur trade period doesn't mean that yellow crossing
>guard rain coats=A0 and goulashes are acceptable at various events
>replicating fur trade activity.=A0 My point is that a more definitive
>response on that subject matter is earnestly needed, ie. what sort of
>fabric was rubberized?=A0 What kind of "rubber" was used?=A0 Where did it
>come from?=A0 What colour was the eventual product?
>Was it sold as premade garments and/or sold as bulk
>sheeting?..........and so on.=A0 What was "India rubber"?
>
>I've seen what is sold by Panther and seriously wonder if this is a true
>replication of a period product.=A0 I tend to think that vulcanization in
>its infancy probable consisted of a gum type rubber, ill refined and a
>bit bulky.=A0 Could be totally wrong.
>
>Any further incites on the particulars of this subject?
>
>John Funk
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
<http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole
Date: 03 Nov 1998 09:53:32 EST

Of course were interested, have the dear Mrs look up those notes!

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear
Date: 03 Nov 1998 10:51:03 -0700

> But
> there are many  ladies at our rendezvous.  In reality they wouldn't have
> been there at all in 1830, but they are here now.  What about their underwear.

Lots of women were involved in the fur trade. Some were mixed-blood, some
were Native; a very few were white. All of them would have likely objected
to you asking them questions about their undergarments. And you'd better not
ask me about _my_ underwear when I'm at rendezvous!

Seriously, there's not a whole lot of information on European women's
undergarments in this period, but the Cunnington book mentioned earlier on
this thread gives a good summary of what is known. Because there isn't a
whole lot of info, opinion falls into two main schools : some folks believe
most women didn't wear drawers/pantelettes, because so few survive, and
there is very little mention of them in period writings; others say that can
be explained by the fact that writing about one's underwear was improper,
and underwear was usually discarded or recycled when it was worn out, unlike
other exterior clothing.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 03 Nov 1998 17:07:36 EST

in my 2nd year of growing gourds, here in sunny (and dry) So. Cal.  Last year,
I was able to let them air dry on a shelf.  This year, I thought I would hang
one.  Foolishly, I hung it by the neck, which bruised, softened and rotted in
short order.  The rest, I am  drying on the shelves.

Another peculiarity this year, was a black mildew/fungus that appeared on some
of the gourds.  I believe this is due to El Nino, with all of the extra
moisture in our poorly drained (but, south facing plot).  On the bright side,
I believe the mildew/fungus is going to create a verty dramatic effect on one
long-necked, large bottle gourd.  We'll see....  Also, I'm going to
carve/incise a couple of them green, this year.

Pappy




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 03 Nov 1998 16:36:15 -0600 (CST)


>Another peculiarity this year, was a black mildew/fungus that appeared on some
>of the gourds.  I believe this is due to El Nino, with all of the extra
>moisture in our poorly drained (but, south facing plot).  On the bright side,
>I believe the mildew/fungus is going to create a very dramatic effect on one
>long-necked, large bottle gourd.

That fungus can come off if you choose.  Just soak the gourd for a while in
water, getting it good and wet all over, and scrub the outer skin membrane
with a soft brush.  Toothbrush works well.  Scrubbing removes the outer
membrane where the fungus has grown.  The fungus usually grows only on the
surface and leaves only a shadow of itself beneath.

>We'll see....  Also, I'm going to
>carve/incise a couple of them green, this year.

That should be interesting.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 03 Nov 1998 18:22:29 EST


In a message dated 11/3/98 2:13:40 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Foolishly, I hung it by the neck, which bruised, softened and rotted in
short order.  The rest, I am  drying on the shelves.
>>

Hmm.... Pappy, I have mine hung by the stem (vine), you reckon this would
work? I also live in cloudy (read wet) Battle Ground, WA. and have them in the
unheated garage. Should I move them into the house? Gourds are kinda hard to
come by around here. Thanks for the tips Henry.....
Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos
Date: 03 Nov 1998 17:11:45 -0600

The vulcanization process was patented in1831, if I remember correctly.  =
Several rubber buttons were found in the dig at Bent's Fort and shown to =
be from the Mountain Man era.  Don Keas


John Kramer wrote:
>John,
>
>Maybe I can help a bit.
>
>India rubber is natural rubber also known as caoutchouc.=A0 There are =
modern
>perversions of the term used to describe other materials; that was not =
the
>case
>during our period of interest.
>
>Before processing it is a light cream or dark amber color.=A0 It is the =
latex
>(milky juice) of rubber trees.=A0 It was first polymerized by drying and
>coagulation.
>
>I don't have the exact date reference at hand for the first vulcanization =
of
>rubber by Goodyear.=A0 As I remember it would, AT BEST, have been pretty
>uncommon
>before 1840.=A0 =
>Vulcanization only improved strength, flexibility and durability - it =
also
>allowed for very hard rubber which could be cast into combs and such; the
>natural rubber was used in much the same ways prior to 1840.=A0 Not =
nearly so
>broadly to so many purposes.
>
>Rubberized cotton canvas of modern manufacture would probably be as close =
as
>anyone could get commercially today.=A0 It wouldn't be much different =
than what
>was made before 1840.=A0 More common today, I would suspect, would be a
>synthetic
>rubber which should offer no functional difference.=A0 Perhaps better =
wearing
>qualities.
>
>I have encountered references to "rubber sheeting" to date I have not
>determined if it referred to rubberized cloth or thin sheets of natural
>rubber;
>or both.=A0 I have not had any rubber I was certain was not vulcanized to
>determine if would have the strength for use in pure sheets to be =
practical. =
>Then again I haven't spent a lot of time researching rubber and rubber =
goods. =
>I am unaware of existing examples and suspect it all rotted away.
>
>Unless used with great care waterproof goods will condense lots of water =
where
>you may not want it.=A0 Often more than if you used untreated canvas.=A0 =
I would
>suspect the most common use for rubberized cloth or oil treated canvas =
would
>have been for protecting goods from weather - where condensation would =
not
>be a
>problem.=A0 For example for bundling goods sealed in a cache.  Or packing
>foodstuffs on a mule.
>
>I have not encountered exact reference to colors finished goods may have =
been
>traded in, most recipes call for black or brown pigment.=A0 Yellow would =
have
>been possible though not nearly as bright as the items you mention.=A0 =
Yellow
>Ochre --- maybe. =
>
>I have recipes that call for "rubberizing/waterproofing" many materials
>including canvas, cotton, linen, hemp and leather; many call for =
caoutchouc.
>
>I am not presently aware of a source for pure natural India rubber.
>
>Do any of the Lewis & Clark researchers out there have any specifics as =
to the
>rubber goods they carried?=A0 Unless I'm remembering wrong they had a =
rubber
>boat.=A0 If so, has anyone found out how it was built?=A0 =
>
>Rubber goods would have been expensive.=A0 It would be heavy to transport =
or to
>carry.=A0 I doubt it was widely used.=A0 Oilcloth would be lighter and =
cheaper and
>I suspect not much more common.=A0 Why uncommon?=A0 Because there aren't =
many
>references.=A0 Allan's Fort Hall find is significant I doubt they saved =
samples
>or recorded much detail.=A0 Damn.
>
>John...
>
>
>At 08:00 PM 10/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>Alan,
>>
>>As usual, your information is invaluable and knowledge abounds.=A0 =
>>However, I fear that certain generalizations may prove misleading to the
>>novice amongst us. The fact that "vulcanized'" cloth/rubber garments
>>existed within the fur trade period doesn't mean that yellow crossing
>>guard rain coats=A0 and goulashes are acceptable at various events
>>replicating fur trade activity.=A0 My point is that a more definitive
>>response on that subject matter is earnestly needed, ie. what sort of
>>fabric was rubberized?=A0 What kind of "rubber" was used?=A0 Where did =
it
>>come from?=A0 What colour was the eventual product?
>>Was it sold as premade garments and/or sold as bulk
>>sheeting?..........and so on.=A0 What was "India rubber"?
>>
>>I've seen what is sold by Panther and seriously wonder if this is a true
>>replication of a period product.=A0 I tend to think that vulcanization =
in
>>its infancy probable consisted of a gum type rubber, ill refined and a
>>bit bulky.=A0 Could be totally wrong.
>>
>>Any further incites on the particulars of this subject?
>>
>>John Funk
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
><http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>> =
>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
>
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <[e-mail]> =
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:rubber ponchos
Date: 03 Nov 1998 13:11:56 -0600

Washtahay-
At 03:58 AM 11/3/98 -0600, (John, you really should sleep sometime) you=
 wrote:

>snip<
>Rubberized cotton canvas of modern manufacture would probably be as close=
 as
>anyone could get commercially today.=A0 It wouldn't be much different than=
 what
>was made before 1840.=A0 More common today, I would suspect, would be a
>synthetic
>rubber which should offer no functional difference.=A0 Perhaps better=
 wearing
>qualities.
    Back in amongst the many myriad misspent days of my youth (probably 10
years ago) I had a job at a plant that manufactured rubber products to spec
for various purposes.  We had a lot of rubber, chemicals, etc, and I
probably spent too many hours playing... =20
    Anyhow, a cotton weave fabric treated with natural latex isn't really very
durable.  The fabric seems to tear more readily.  (Some of the latex we
received was smoked to preserve it, if anyone runs across it, it isn't
necessarily treated with sulphur or vulcanized in any way.  I was told this
was done to reduce problems with spoilage.)  Also, the latex treated fabric
was rather "tacky"-not as much as a new tack cloth, more like the one I
usually forget on the benchtop for a week or two.  =20
>
I have not had any rubber I was certain was not vulcanized to
>determine if would have the strength for use in pure sheets to be=
 practical.
    The pure latex I had access to was very susceptible to punctures (and
tears at the edges) when in an unsupported (no fabric) sheet.  If
unvulcanized latex was used in this manner, I suspect it may have been
placed on or between pieces of canvas.
    All in all, they were fun experiments to run, but the possible health risk
would make me suggest using extreme caution if you try to experiment along
these lines.=20

>I have not encountered exact reference to colors finished goods may have=
 been
>traded in, most recipes call for black or brown pigment.=A0
    It is fairly simple to amalgamate carbon black into the raw latex.  It is
doable with the technology of the 18th century-but I don't know if it was
done. =20

> Yellow would have
>been possible though not nearly as bright as the items you mention.=A0=
 Yellow
>Ochre --- maybe.=20
    If ground to a fine powder, it works.  Looked more like dried
mustard-nothing at all like a fishskin.
>
>I am not presently aware of a source for pure natural India rubber.
    Given my above caution, if anyone is really interested I can try to point
you in the right direction.
>
LongWalker c. du B. (and itinerant alchemist)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Card <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: underwear
Date: 03 Nov 1998 14:56:40 -0500

Of course, journals are one of our best sources of information, =

but we need to keep them in context.  How they compare to other
sources, etc.  If someone's journal mentions calico underwear, =

that's great info - but all it really says is that particular
person used calico, or at most that some men used it.  We can't =

say that all mountain men used it.  Still good info, but only =

as far as it goes.  There are many references to flannel drawers =

too, but that doesn't mean calico wasn't used by some, especially =

in warmer areas.  Calico is only a type of cotton fabric - not =

just an "underwear" fabric, so I don't know about the guy arrested =

in a calico shirt.  The big question is - did he have anything =

else on?
-David-



>   Terrel DeWald a brother from Amarillo once told me that the =

> mountain man wore calico as underwear. He said he got the info
> from an original journal he read somewhere. Anyway he said he
> also read an account of a feller getting arrested in a town for =

> being on the streets in a calico shirt, arrested for indecent
> exposure?
>
> Snakeshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole
Date: 02 Nov 1998 19:47:03 -0800

Carpenter's wrote:
>
He told me that the fortification breastwork,
> from the battle, still existed when he was a kid, growing up in that area.
> I'll have my wife try and find these notes, if any one is interested.  She may
> know where they are.

Hey, we are all interested.    DN



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Card <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bees wax
Date: 01 Nov 1998 20:05:43 -0500

I suppose it's not all that important, depending on your intended use.  =

As you say, for food-related uses, my biggest use is candles, and I =

think they would burn better without stray legs and bee butts sparking
and sputtering.  I use a lot (with tallow) for waterproofing, and it
goes on smoother without always having to pick the afore mentioned =

legs and butts out...  personal preference I guess. =

-David-



> From: [e-mail]
>
> What's so important about getting the bee parts out, except for maybe l=
ining a
> beverage container?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos
Date: 03 Nov 1998 18:50:48 -0800

My thanks to John, Phyllis, Don and Jim for the interesting treatise on
"vulcanization" of cotton cloth with natural rubber.
Would it be fair to  assume that if one were to show up at some doing
with a cotton/canvas cloth which had been "rubberized" he would be period
correct?  To elaborate, if one were to take pillow ticking or #12 canvas
and treat/coat it with a "natural rubber" product (ie. say dried Contact
Cement or a clear type rubber product used to coat some tools)
would/could he be shot on sight?  Of course the main question is, how
common were such items in the Rocky Mountains during the Fur Trade
period and is it fair to also assume that the typical trapper had such an
item. Or, were such items used for the packing of goods west for trade by
pack trains?  The more I think about it I tend such items were rather
scarce.

Any further thoughts????????

John Funk

___________________________________________________________________
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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:rubber ponchos
Date: 03 Nov 1998 21:33:56 -0600

Rubber facts from the Collier's 1998 Encyclopedia:

Joseph Priestley, the discoverer of oxygen, coined the word "rubber" because
it could be used to erase pencil marks.  "India rubber" was not from India,
but from the the West Indies, which Columbus thought was India.

Thomas Hancock established the first English rubber factory in 1820.  In
1823 Charles Macintosh of Scotland patented a process in which benzene was
used to dissolve rubber to apply it to fabric.  The rubber was then covered
with another layer of fabric.

In 1833 the Roxbury India Rubber firm in Roxbury, Mass was the first
American firm to produce waterproof cloth and shoes.  The rubber was badly
affected by temperature extremes.

In January 1839, Charles Goodyear discovered the vulcanization process in
Woburn, Massachussets.


From Funk and Wagnalls New Encyclopedia, 1979:

In 1791 Samuel Peal of England patented a method of waterproofing cloth by
applying rubber disolved in turpentine.

In the United States rubber products became popular by the 1830's, and
bottles and shoes made by South American Indians were imported in large
quantities.

The rubber oducts produced by the Roxbury India Rubber firm and were brittle
in cold weather and tacky and stinky in warm weather.

In 1834, German chemist Ludersdorf and American chemist Hayward discovered
that sulfur made the rubber goods lessened the tackiness.

YMHAOS
Iron Burner




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson
Date: 03 Nov 1998 22:03:52 -0800

Gail please fill us in about your visit to taos when you get back.  I grew up
there and haven't been back in about 12 years.  I used to play in the park
near kit carson's house.  Also eat as much New mexican cuisine as you can, you
will not regret it.  Michaels kitchen was a good joint to eat at. but avoid
the Sagebrush inn unless the owners have changed in the last year or so.
Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant
Sega





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Volberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rubber ponchos
Date: 03 Nov 1998 22:52:01 -0800

Hello the camp,

Francis Parkman mentions wearing an "india-rubber cloak" and his party
sleeping on "india-rubber cloths" during an 1846 prairie thunderstorm on
the Oregon Trail.

California Pilgrim




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 04 Nov 1998 02:36:42 -0600

   >Another peculiarity this year, was a black mildew/fungus that
   >appeared on some of the gourds.  I believe this is due to El Nino,
   >with all of the extra moisture in our poorly drained (but, south
   >facing plot).  On the bright side, I believe the mildew/fungus is
   >going to create a verty dramatic effect on one long-necked, large
   >bottle gourd.  We'll see....  Also, I'm going to carve/incise a
   >couple of them green, this year.
   >Pappy
Pappy,here in Wisconsin I've had the mildew/fungus happen often. does'nt
seem to hurt and sometimes stays on the gourd. Don't know bout El Nino but
the humidity level is higher here than S.Cal.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 04 Nov 1998 02:11:28 +0000

I had a great idea once...I was going to grow gourds, make canteens, and
get RICH...ha ha...  My first crop failed, the vines grew well and
flowered, then the fungis rot set in... I tried again the next
year...same result!  Talking to a local farmer, I found that what I
suspected was true.....Living on the coast (as I do) subjects the large
leafed vines to dew nearly every night, hence the rot.  13 miles south,
on the inland side of the coastal range, is an ideal climate for gourd
growing.... but, alas I live on the western side and can not grow gourds.
  Next idea...?     still poor, Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 04 Nov 1998 06:45:09 EST

Check with your local garden store for a fungicide which if applied early may
combat the fungus.  Don't know about your area but here in humid So. Ohio that
works.

Red Hawk

MIA3Wolves



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 04 Nov 1998 08:37:31 -0600 (CST)


>Pappy,here in Wisconsin I've had the mildew/fungus happen often. does'nt
>seem to hurt and sometimes stays on the gourd. Don't know bout El Nino but
>the humidity level is higher here than S.Cal.
>Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>


I personally like the dry climate here, which is why I moved away from
Wisconsin 8 years ago.  This year we had the opposite problem.  Drought.  I
watered my gourds a lot because of lack of rain.  That's not too good
either, because they can get too much chlorine.  We finally got rain toward
the end of summer, so I was able to cut back on using city water.  Rain
water works wonders because it doesn't have the chlorine and it carries
nutrients from ground evaporation that the plants need.  I also didn't
fertilize like I hadbefore.  I wanted toi see what would happen.  I still
had a decent crop, but it could have been much better.

HBC


*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 04 Nov 1998 23:54:32 EST

didn't susspect fungus would be such a hot topic...

I had anticipated the problems w/  dew, and fungus, since we have difficulty
growing zukes w/o fungus rotting them before they ripen.  We live in the San
Fernando valley,
which although is lee of the southern spur of the santa monica mtns (aka
Hollywood hills),  we are more accurately on the windward side of the southern
end of the coastal range.  Thus, moisture from marine layer comes over the
Hollywood Hills, and settles in the valley at night, held there by the San
Gabriels (nee Seirra Madres), Santa Susannas and the nocturnal onshore winds.

Fungicide has not helped the zukes,  and I reluctantly have used it sparingly
on the gourds, to good effect.  I believe the problem began, when we composted
over the last couple of el nino winters; using the same small plot for
composting and planting. This, I believe caused the fungus to begin in the
ground, before we planted.

I dry mine in the house on a shelf, turning them every so often.  works fine.

thanks for all input & response

pappy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Platte River
Date: 05 Nov 1998 23:16:50 -0600

Would like all the infor I can get. I am planning a trip on the Platte
in two years. If there are any books out thier let me know. I am
interested on sites that early trappers wre at on the river, rendezvoos,
trails,etc. Ol Buck thank you




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: intro letter
Date: 05 Nov 1998 10:21:02 -0600

I'm looking for a copy of the intro letter you get when you subscribe to
the list, I'm doing a workshop on voyageurs and the internet at the
North American Voyageur Council gathering this weekend.

Please email me privately with this.

Thanks,

Jim

  /`-_    Jim Lindberg                 |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa
 { .   }/ 724 East Grand Avenue        |Flambeau Rivere Voyageurs
  \    /  Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter,
   |___|  http://reality.sgi.com/jal/  |Until we next meete.  Go Gentle.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
Date: 05 Nov 1998 11:59:06 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BE08B3.B0AF4FC0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ho the list,

A question was raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and =
Clark had a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating =
to rubber ponchos, etc.

Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame =
(made in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as =
Great Falls where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was =
intended to be covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good =
description of it, it was probably something like an Irish curragh--or =
even like a Mandan bullboat.

John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two =
expeditions into the West. He refers to them as "India rubber" boats and =
mentions them in his journals as being used on both the North Platte and =
the Great Salt Lake. His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. =
The next year, on Salt Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work =
as well since it wasn't "as well stitched together" as the one used on =
his first expedition. This suggests a boat made from several pieces of =
material sewn in some fashion. These rubber boats were 20 feet long and =
5 feet wide and could carry a wagon. They were apparently inflatable (he =
 mentions several places "filling our India rubber boat with air"). Best =
source for Fremont is Donald Jackson and Mary Spence (eds.), THE =
EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 vols. Univ. of Illinois Press.

If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then =
obviously the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. =
out of rubber or rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the =
Rocky Mountain fur trade era.

Keep your powder dry.

John
=20
Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]



------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BE08B3.B0AF4FC0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Ho the list,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A question was raised a few days ago about whether =
or not=20
Lewis and Clark had a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread =
relating=20
to rubber ponchos, etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They =
carried an=20
iron frame (made in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the =
Missouri=20
as far as Great Falls where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron =
frame was=20
intended to be covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good=20
description of it, it was probably something like an Irish curragh--or =
even like=20
a Mandan bullboat.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on =
his first=20
two expeditions into the West. He refers to them as "India =
rubber"=20
boats and mentions them in his journals as being used on both the North =
Platte=20
and the Great Salt Lake. His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in =
1842. The=20
next year, on Salt Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as =
well since=20
it wasn't "as well stitched together" as the one used on his =
first=20
expedition. This suggests a boat made from several pieces of material =
sewn in=20
some fashion. These rubber boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide and =
could=20
carry a wagon. They were apparently inflatable (he  mentions =
several places=20
"filling our India rubber boat with air"). Best source for =
Fremont is=20
Donald Jackson and Mary Spence (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES =
FREMONT,=20
3 vols. Univ. of Illinois Press.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable =
rubber boat,=20
then obviously the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, =
etc. out=20
of rubber or rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the =
Rocky=20
Mountain fur trade era.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Keep your powder dry.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>John</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dr. John L. Allen<BR>21 Thomas =
Drive<BR>Storrs,=20
CT 06268<BR>860/487-1346<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BE08B3.B0AF4FC0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Platte River
Date: 05 Nov 1998 11:41:26 -0500

Don,

Whereabouts on the Platte? North Platte in Wyoming? South Platte in
Colorado? Platte below the junction in Nebraska? If you'll give me some idea
of where you're trying to get to (or from), I'll try to help. If you're
thinking of traveling on the river itself, you have a task before you.
Depending on time of year and how much water is being let out of reservoirs,
water levels can get really low and there's a lot more sand bar than river
in many areas--not enough draft for even an 18' foot canoe. I've done some
canoe trips on both the North and South Platte but only above (upstream)
from the last dams. Best boat for most of the Platte is a rubber raft.

I'm not aware of any books on boating the Platte specifically (there is some
information on floating the Platte in Wyoming for fishing) but I'll look
through some of my sources to see what I can find for you.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


-----Original Message-----


>Would like all the infor I can get. I am planning a trip on the Platte
>in two years. If there are any books out thier let me know. I am
>interested on sites that early trappers wre at on the river, rendezvoos,
>trails,etc. Ol Buck thank you
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Platte River
Date: 05 Nov 1998 11:04:06 +0000

Dear Don,
Re: Your inquiry on the Platte river--I can help on the South Platte in
Colorado. Actually the North Platte head waters originate in Colorado
and flows north into Wyoming and then southeast to meet the South Platte
at North Platte, Nebraska.

On the South Platte in Colorado there were several trapper forts in Weld
County near Greeley.
Only one is reconstructed and has a visitors Center. It is Fort Vasquez
at Platteville, CO which is about 30 miles down stream from Denver and
20 miles up stream from Greeley.
It was started by Louis Vasquez.
--------
Another researcher(Elizabeth Larson) states: Six miles upstream and just
south of the present town of Platteville was a famous center for fur
trading built in 1837 by Louis Vasquez and Andrew Sublette who named it
Fort Vasquez. It was subsequently destroyed by Indians around 1842. With
the 1859 gold rush to Colorado, traders and settlers restored part of
the fort, using it for living quarters. The Overland Mail Express stages
stopped there only if there was a passenger or shipment to be left off.

============
Another one is Fort St. Vrain about 6-8 miles down stream where the St
Vrain and So, Platte rivers merge. Nothing remains of it except a
marker(Elizabeth Larson)historical writer states:
A wooden sign is posted which tells of a 1967 archaeological survey
conducted by the Colorado State Historical Society. About 50 feet beyond
the wooden sign is a big concrete slab with three steps up onto it. A
big granite square slab about 6 feet tall stands on top of the concrete
slab. It says:
The plaque reads:
FORT ST. VRAIN BUILT ABOUT 1837
BY COL. CERAN ST. VRAIN.
GENERAL FREMONT REORGANIZED HIS HISTORIC EXPLORING EXPEDITION HERE
JULY 23, 1848.
THIS FORT WAS ALSO VISITED BY FRANCIS PARKMAN AND KIT CARSON.
ERECTED BY CENTENNIAL STATE CHAPTER DAUGHTERS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION
1911

The writer further states: Fort St. Vrain was established in 1837 by
Ceran St. Vrain, a French fur trader and trapper, and his friends, the
Bent Brothers. St. Vrain and the Bents also established a fort in 1833
on the Santa Fe Trail near La Junta, Colorado called Bent's Old Fort.
======
Eventually maybe by the time you get ready to float down So. Platte(lol)
I should have in Historical Section under Forts will have the many forts
here in Colorado, so check in at my web site from time to time.
Sincerely,
Joseph Miller




--
Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome!
To be Happy, Joyous and Free
Joseph Miller, Webmaster
http://www.Colorado-Mall.com
For information on leasing mall space
E-mail: [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
Date: 05 Nov 1998 15:52:25 -0800

John C Funk wrote:
>
> My thanks to John, Phyllis, Don and Jim for the interesting treatise on
> "vulcanization" of cotton cloth with natural rubber.
  The more I think about it I tend such items were rather
> scarce.
>
> Any further thoughts????????

"Arms and Equipment of the Union,"  Time Life Books, ISBN 0-7370-3158-1
has pictures on page 215 of a rubber blanket 45'x79', fitted with brass
grommets, issued to the infantry Nov. 1861, and a rubberized poncho
first issued to mounted troops in Nov 1861.  Also fitted with brass
grommets and a buttoned slit.  On page 167 there is a photo of a
rubberized Sou'wester hat worn by sailors in foul weather.  When I was a
kid I had a Sou'wester hat that looked just like this one.
        Actually we might be very surprised if we knew how common the
use of
rubber blankets etc. was.  Sometimes the stuff that was used the most
was mentioned least, because everyone knew about it, and it didn't need
mentioning.    DN



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mt man-List: rubber ponchos
Date: 03 Nov 1998 19:50:29 -0800

John C Funk wrote:
>
> My thanks to John, Phyllis, Don and Jim for the interesting treatise on
> "vulcanization" of cotton cloth with natural rubber.
  The more I think about it I tend such items were rather
> scarce.
>
> Any further thoughts????????

"Arms and Equipment of the Union,"  Time Life Books, ISBN 0-7370-3158-1
has pictures on page 215 of a rubber blanket 45'x79', fitted with brass
grommets, issued to the infantry Nov. 1861, and a rubberized poncho
first issued to mounted troops in Nov 1861.  Also fitted with brass
grommets and a buttoned slit.  On page 167 there is a photo of a
rubberized Sou'wester hat worn by sailors in foul weather.  When I was a
kid I had a Sou'wester hat that looked just like this one.
    Actually we might be very surprised if we knew how common the use of
rubber blankets etc. was.  Sometimes the stuff that was used the most
was mentioned least, because everyone knew about it, and it didn't need
mentioning.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: New Knife
Date: 05 Nov 1998 20:27:54 EST

I just got my new knife today that a fellow list member, Dennis over at the
double edge forge made up for me.  I just had to write and brag!  What an
awesome knife!  It is a copy of a knife in Madison Grants book "The Knife in
Home Spun America."  It is HK-3 on page 92.  Dennis did an incredibly good job
of recreating this knife and for a great price too.  There is a picture of it
on his home page if anyone is interested.  I listed the URL below.  I guess I
finally own my first truely authentic accoutrement!  Thanks Dennis!

Grant

http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1/wi.GIF



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: On-Line Trade Blanket
Date: 05 Nov 1998 19:48:11 -0600

Washtahay-
    the final edition of my on-line trade blanket will go out Friday AM.  if
you want a copy let me know-OFF LIST.
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Platte River
Date: 05 Nov 1998 19:28:34 -0700

Hello Camp,

I have done the North Platte from Scotts Bluff NE and the South Platte from
Ft. Morgan CO going to Ft. DeChartre IL, apprx 1260 river miles - figure a
month of hard work and worth the effort - every inch of the way. Good
detailed maps are available from the Coast Guard for both sections of this
river, including the irr.damns and man made lakes.

North Platte;
You can expect several portages a day that take close to an hour per portage
to move a 1/4 mile depending on equipage on the North Platte. This will last
for several hundred miles and you will have to watch the water line in front
of you there are two lakes with hydro plant damns, (one did not have floats
or ropes to warn you of a three hundred foot down ride into the hydro plant
shoot, lucky seeing the level condition of the river tipped us to go look at
see why it was different, before getting to far with no return). You will
have anything from sandy beaches to poison ivy patches to camp on until you
hit the Missouri river. Thats not as bad as it sounds if careful.

South Platte;
You can expect at least one portage a day that again will take close to an
hour per portage depending on equipage as on the North Platte. Only good
thing going this way is the river banks are not as steep on most of the
portages. You'll encounter more wire fences on this section of the Platte.
Camps are a little further apart, and not as much drainage projects as in NE
going this way, but less shelter from the wind, which can slow you down to a
crawl at times, even to walking the canoes. Saw more snakes on this route
also and had more visitors at night, locals that saw our small camp fires.
Less game was seen on the South Platte probably do to less trees and the
flatness.

I think the North Platte is prettier and more interesting landscapes, plus
the folks we met seemed friendlier and willing to help with any problems,
one example was they  helped us with a 4 mile portage around one hydro
plant. Seemed the Fish & Game people were nicer too, had a warden chase us
for several miles, as his wife had seen us on local TV the night before and
made us punch and cookies, said he had to deliever or forget going home.

You will work hardier than you have for a while at making the distance you
figure, (shoot for 25-30 a day), some days you'll get lucky and do 35-40,
then turn around the next day an be lucky to make 15.

You should contact some of the sporting good stores in the towns going by
just before starting you trip, they are great on knowing what water
conditions are like for their area. We found this out on one adventure, went
to the South Platte and the river was not passable, then had to drive half a
day to the North Platte for water.

If you wish I can probably give you distances and other information on the
North Platte and will try and get my information back on the South Platte
too.

Buck Conner
Baker Party  CO

___________________________________________
-----Original Message-----


>Don,
>
>Whereabouts on the Platte? North Platte in Wyoming? South Platte in
>Colorado? Platte below the junction in Nebraska? If you'll give me some
idea
>of where you're trying to get to (or from), I'll try to help. If you're
>thinking of traveling on the river itself, you have a task before you.
>Depending on time of year and how much water is being let out of
reservoirs,
>water levels can get really low and there's a lot more sand bar than river
>in many areas--not enough draft for even an 18' foot canoe. I've done some
>canoe trips on both the North and South Platte but only above (upstream)
>from the last dams. Best boat for most of the Platte is a rubber raft.
>
>I'm not aware of any books on boating the Platte specifically (there is
some
>information on floating the Platte in Wyoming for fishing) but I'll look
>through some of my sources to see what I can find for you.
>
>John
>
>Dr. John L. Allen
>21 Thomas Drive
>Storrs, CT 06268
>860/487-1346
>[e-mail]
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 11:13 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Platte River
>
>
>>Would like all the infor I can get. I am planning a trip on the Platte
>>in two years. If there are any books out thier let me know. I am
>>interested on sites that early trappers wre at on the river, rendezvoos,
>>trails,etc. Ol Buck thank you
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
Date: 05 Nov 1998 23:19:29 PST

Also consider that Sir William Drumond Stewart used an inflatable rubber =
boat in the 1840's on a lake in the Wind River Range.

I will get the cite for anyone interested.  Paul W. Jones

----------
> Ho the list,
>
> A question was raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and Cla=
rk had
> a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating to rubber
> ponchos, etc.
>
> Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame =
(made
> in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as Great =
Falls
> where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was intended to =
be
> covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good description =
of it, it
> was probably something like an Irish curragh--or even like a Mandan bul=
lboat.
>
> John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two expedit=
ions
> into the West. He refers to them as "India rubber" boats and mentions =
them in
> his journals as being used on both the North Platte and the Great Salt =
Lake.
> His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. The next year, on =
Salt
> Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as well since it wasn't=
 "as
> well stitched together" as the one used on his first expedition. This =
suggests
> a boat made from several pieces of material sewn in some fashion. These=
 rubber
> boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide and could carry a wagon. They =
were
> apparently inflatable (he  mentions several places "filling our India =
rubber
> boat with air"). Best source for Fremont is Donald Jackson and Mary Spe=
nce
> (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 vols. Univ. of Illin=
ois
> Press.
>
> If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then obvio=
usly
> the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. out of =
rubber or
> rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the Rocky Mountain =
fur
> trade era.
>
> Keep your powder dry.
>
> John
>
> Dr. John L. Allen
> 21 Thomas Drive
> Storrs, CT 06268
> 860/487-1346
> [e-mail]
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: GOEX "up in smoke."
Date: 06 Nov 1998 02:49:15 -0500

Just in.....

Fred
_________________________________

November 5, 1998
Web posted at: 7:59 p.m. EST (0059 GMT)

MINDEN, Louisiana (AP) -- An explosion and flash fire tore through a
building
at an ammunition plant Thursday, killing one employee.

The plant, operated by Goex Inc. in a remote wooded area of Webster
parish in
northwestern Louisiana, produces black powder ammunition. Until 1994, it
was
the site of the now-closed Louisiana Army Ammunition Plant.

The explosion happened during the initial manufacturing process of the
powder,
said Goex president Mick Fahringer. The loose powder quickly burned
itself out,
he said.

The dead employee was identified as Paul Van Luvender, of Haughton. No
one
else was hurt, Fahringer said.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Farabee <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
Date: 06 Nov 1998 07:29:23 -0700

Paul W. Jones wrote:
>
> Also consider that Sir William Drumond Stewart used an inflatable rubber boat in the 1840's on a lake in the Wind River Range.
>
> I will get the cite for anyone interested.  Paul W. Jones
>
> ----------
> > Ho the list,
> >
> > A question was raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and Clark had
> > a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating to rubber
> > ponchos, etc.
> >
> > Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame (made
> > in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as Great Falls
> > where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was intended to be
> > covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good description of it, it
> > was probably something like an Irish curragh--or even like a Mandan bullboat.
> >
> > John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two expeditions
> > into the West. He refers to them as "India rubber" boats and mentions them in
> > his journals as being used on both the North Platte and the Great Salt Lake.
> > His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. The next year, on Salt
> > Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as well since it wasn't "as
> > well stitched together" as the one used on his first expedition. This suggests
> > a boat made from several pieces of material sewn in some fashion. These rubber
> > boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide and could carry a wagon. They were
> > apparently inflatable (he  mentions several places "filling our India rubber
> > boat with air"). Best source for Fremont is Donald Jackson and Mary Spence
> > (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 vols. Univ. of Illinois
> > Press.
> >
> > If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then obviously
> > the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. out of rubber or
> > rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the Rocky Mountain fur
> > trade era.
> >
> > Keep your powder dry.
> >
> > John
> >
> > Dr. John L. Allen
> > 21 Thomas Drive
> > Storrs, CT 06268
> > 860/487-1346
> > [e-mail]
> >
> >The rubber boat used by Stewart was on the Lake at Pinedale, Wyo. They calles it Stewart Lake but it is now called Fremont Lake.

The Ole Gray Bear




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Pearce Gardner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: why dry raw meat
Date: 04 Nov 1998 19:43:24 -0500

For sometime now, I have heard that it is bad to allow meat to cook or get
too hot if one plans to dry the meat.   I posted this information on another
mail list I subscribe to and have been challenged on it.  Can some one write
to me and explain why it is bad to dry cooked meat?  Thanks for your help.

Pearce   [e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: why dry raw meat
Date: 06 Nov 1998 10:19:19 -0500

Hi,
 I don't really know the techincal reasons on the subject, but I do know
that when I make pemmican,  when you mix the fat with the rest of
ingredients, you want the fat cool enough that it will not cook the dried
meat the mixture contains. If it does cook the meat, it will go rancid. If
then you eat it, you will die, or WISH you would.
Dennis Miles

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>For sometime now, I have heard that it is bad to allow meat to cook or get
>too hot if one plans to dry the meat.   I posted this information on
another
>mail list I subscribe to and have been challenged on it.  Can some one
write
>to me and explain why it is bad to dry cooked meat?  Thanks for your help.
>
>Pearce   [e-mail]
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: why dry raw meat
Date: 06 Nov 1998 09:58:07 -0600

Washtahay-
At 07:43 PM 11/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
>For sometime now, I have heard that it is bad to allow meat to cook or get
>too hot if one plans to dry the meat.   I posted this information on another
>mail list I subscribe to and have been challenged on it.  Can some one write
>to me and explain why it is bad to dry cooked meat?  Thanks for your help.
    It tastes bad.
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Carpenter's" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Native seeds
Date: 06 Nov 1998 08:26:54 -0500

Dear list:
Try this web site for native seeds, related items and other good stuff
for those of the interests we have.

    http://desert.net/seeds/home.htm

I got this from Pipe Springs National Monument, an old Mormon fort, in
Arizona.  They grow traditional plants in the garden there and this is
one place they get their seeds.

Carp




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: why dry raw meat
Date: 06 Nov 1998 21:35:04 EST

In a message dated 11/6/98 8:10:30 AM Mountain Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Can some one write to me and explain why it is bad to dry cooked meat? >>
I can't tell you but you might try: http://www.greatjerky.com/index.html.
These are professional jerky "people" and I bet they could tell you.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: why dry raw meat
Date: 06 Nov 1998 22:21:52 -0800



Jim Colburn wrote:

> >For sometime now, I have heard that it is bad to allow meat to cook or get
> >too hot if one plans to dry the meat.   I posted this information on another
> >mail list I subscribe to and have been challenged on it.  Can some one write
> >to me and explain why it is bad to dry cooked meat?  Thanks for your help.
>

I've made the mistake of drying meat at too high a temperature  and it cooked as
it dried.  What happened to me was that the meat dried out so much that it was
crumbly and turned into dust in the haversack.Your most onry' and disobedient
hivernant
Sega





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: why dry raw meat
Date: 07 Nov 1998 08:00:00 -0600

Washtahay-
At 10:21 PM 11/6/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Jim Colburn wrote:
>
>> >For sometime now, I have heard that it is bad to allow meat to cook or get
    The hell I did!  I was answering the original poster, who made that
comment.  Please be careful of your attributions.  Some folks get a might
peeved when made to say things they didn't say.
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Platte River
Date: 07 Nov 1998 09:07:23 EST

Don--  Try "The Great Platte river Road" by Merrill J. Mattes, Bison Books.
Long since out of print in hard back, and generally goes for $100 when found.
But Bison Books , University of Nebraska Press,has a paperback edition out for
$16.95
Pat Surrena
#1449



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Flathead Post
Date: 07 Nov 1998 12:34:00 EST

Hello the list,
Dale Morgan in his 'Jedediah Smith' wrote that " The Hudson's Bay Company's
advance base, Flathead Post, was situated.... at present Eddy, Montana".  I
know generally where the Post was but since I can't find Eddy on Montana's
map, would someone please pinpoint the location for me?
Thanks.
           Dick



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flathead Post
Date: 07 Nov 1998 15:27:34 EST

Eddy is Northwest of Weeksville, Southwest of Flathead Lake, off of SR 200.
Here is a link to MapQuest with exact directions.  Hope this helps.  YHS,
ShootzHimself

<A HREF="http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-
bin/mqtrip?uid=rb05aap00e01kakk&avoid_lmtd_access=&avoid_toll_roads=&route_typ
e=&link=TripQuest-
Main&uid=rb05aap00e01kakk&avoid_ferry=1&OPC=null&ADDR_ORIGIN=&CITY_ORIGIN=Miss
oula&STATE_ORIGIN=MT&DPC=null&ADDR_DESTINATION=&CITY_DESTINATION=Eddy&STATE_DE
STINATION=MT&quest_mode=trek&results_display_mode=overview">Driving Directions
Results</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flathead Post
Date: 07 Nov 1998 14:05:15 -0800

RR1LA,

I thought I would take a look at this mapquest site but I can't make it come up.
Could you check the URL to make sure it is correct. Thanks, I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> Eddy is Northwest of Weeksville, Southwest of Flathead Lake, off of SR 200.
> Here is a link to MapQuest with exact directions.  Hope this helps.  YHS,
> ShootzHimself
>
> <A HREF="http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-
> bin/mqtrip?uid=rb05aap00e01kakk&avoid_lmtd_access=&avoid_toll_roads=&route_typ
> e=&link=TripQuest-
> Main&uid=rb05aap00e01kakk&avoid_ferry=1&OPC=null&ADDR_ORIGIN=&CITY_ORIGIN=Miss
> oula&STATE_ORIGIN=MT&DPC=null&ADDR_DESTINATION=&CITY_DESTINATION=Eddy&STATE_DE
> STINATION=MT&quest_mode=trek&results_display_mode=overview">Driving Directions
> Results</A>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flathead Post
Date: 07 Nov 1998 17:10:27 EST

re: Mapquest.. if the link didn't work, the URL is www.mapquest.com
sorry for any problems with the link.   YHS, ShootzHimself



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flathead Post
Date: 07 Nov 1998 14:25:20 -0800

S.H.,

Thanks, it works now without the extrastuff at the end. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> re: Mapquest.. if the link didn't work, the URL is www.mapquest.com
> sorry for any problems with the link.   YHS, ShootzHimself






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 08 Nov 1998 14:24:37 EST

Please clarify this for me.
When someone writes or says that something is on the right side of a river is
he refering to looking up or downstream?
Thanks.
        Dick



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 08 Nov 1998 15:52:36 -0500

Well, that would entirely depend on if you were on the right or the wrong
side of said river, ya see...

Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>Please clarify this for me.
>When someone writes or says that something is on the right side of a river
is
>he refering to looking up or downstream?
>Thanks.
>        Dick
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Battle of Pierre's Hole
Date: 04 Nov 1998 22:45:41 -0700

Dale,

Over the last couple of years I've made an effort to talk to locals about
the reported breastworks of the Battle of Pierre's Hole.  When the local
information about the breastworks is compared with other information it
appears that what locals observed was actually the rotting logs that were
part of one of the fur company's (Rocky Mountain Fur Co., I think)  whiskey
storage cabin at a rendezvous campsite, rather than the the Gross Ventre'
breastworks.  The rotting log remains in question are just south of Teton
Creek and the modern town of Driggs.  In contrast, all the more scholarly
analysis of accounts of the battle locate the battle site much farther
south, closer to Victor.

Local Pierre's Hole oral history does not stand up to serious investigation.
Even the two historical markers are poorly located and create
misinformation.

Dave
-----Original Message-----


>Carpenter's wrote:
>>
>He told me that the fortification breastwork,
>> from the battle, still existed when he was a kid, growing up in that
area.
>> I'll have my wife try and find these notes, if any one is interested.
She may
>> know where they are.
>
>Hey, we are all interested.    DN
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
Date: 08 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600

Hello List:

    Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I could get
an extra lock for it.  does any one in the USA make a lock that will fit it
without carving on the stock.     who makes the lock for the Manufacture.

                                                thanks LONE_WOLF



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
Date: 08 Nov 1998 06:33:16 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BE0AE1.AAE05320
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Paul J. I also hope someone can come up some references for George
Washington's  cook ware Now days it takes electric power to make aluminum I
am union pipe welder by trade and I worked with an old welder who could
weld aluminum with a torch.  But me it took a Tig welder.  But I can do
magic with a Tig torch.  I am going to also send this to the Hist-list.
Later Jon T

----------
: From: Paul Jacobson <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
: Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 1:39 PM
:
: These are interesting questions...I hope someone knows the answer and
will
: include it here.  I can't add a thing of real value, except that my
mother,
: bless her memory, got a set of aluminum cook ware for a wedding present
in
: the late 20's/early 30's.  Rumor was the aluminum would poison the cook,
: but her South Dakota good sense thought that silly.  I still have 'em,
and
: the big pan makes damn good popcorn.  It has since I was little watching
: Wallace Berry on our first TV.
:
: Cougar Heart
: Paul Jacobson #1597
: ----------
: > From: WIDD-Tim Austin <[e-mail]>
: > To: [e-mail]
: > Subject: AMM-List: aluminum
: > Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 6:37 AM
: >
: > Mr Kramer just brought up a subject that I have been interested in
: > because of its current availability.  Aluminum.  Several years ago I
read
: > that a General George Washington, revolution war era, had a cook set of
: > aluminum.  Seems I also read the a Mr. Stewart took a set of aluminum
: > cook ware with him West of the Mississippi River when he went.  Does
: > anyone have the exact documentation on this subject, or did my memory
: > totally fail me on this one?
: >
: > Thank you for your assistance.
: >
: > Tim Austin #1564
: >
: > --------------------
: > Aux Ailments de Pays!
:
: --------------------
: Aux Ailments de Pays!
------=_NextPart_000_01BE0AE1.AAE05320
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Paul J. I also hope someone can come up =
some references for George Washington's  cook ware Now days it =
takes electric power to make aluminum I am union pipe welder by trade =
and I worked with an old welder who could weld aluminum with a torch. =
 But me it took a Tig welder.  But I can do magic with a Tig =
torch.  I am going to also send this to the Hist-list.  Later =
Jon T <br><br>----------<br>: From: Paul Jacobson <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: AMM-List: aluminum<br>: Date: =
Saturday, November 07, 1998 1:39 PM<br>: <br>: These are interesting =
questions...I hope someone knows the answer and will<br>: include it =
here.  I can't add a thing of real value, except that my =
mother,<br>: bless her memory, got a set of aluminum cook ware for a =
wedding present in<br>: the late 20's/early 30's.  Rumor was the =
aluminum would poison the cook,<br>: but her South Dakota good sense =
thought that silly.  I still have 'em, and<br>: the big pan makes =
damn good popcorn.  It has since I was little watching<br>: Wallace =
Berry on our first TV.<br>: <br>: Cougar Heart<br>: Paul Jacobson =
#1597<br>: ----------<br>: > From: WIDD-Tim Austin <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: > To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: > Subject: AMM-List: aluminum<br>: > Date: =
Friday, November 06, 1998 6:37 AM<br>: > <br>: > Mr Kramer just =
brought up a subject that I have been interested in<br>: > because of =
its current availability.  Aluminum.  Several years ago I =
read<br>: > that a General George Washington, revolution war era, had =
a cook set of<br>: > aluminum.  Seems I also read the a Mr. =
Stewart took a set of aluminum<br>: > cook ware with him West of the =
Mississippi River when he went.  Does<br>: > anyone have the =
exact documentation on this subject, or did my memory<br>: > totally =
fail me on this one?<br>: > <br>: > Thank you for your =
assistance.<br>: > <br>: > Tim Austin #1564<br>: > <br>: > =
--------------------<br>: > Aux Ailments de Pays!<br>: <br>: =
--------------------<br>: Aux Ailments de Pays!</p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></h=
tml>
------=_NextPart_000_01BE0AE1.AAE05320--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Mike Haught)
Subject: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 08 Nov 1998 23:32:05 GMT

I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's
flintlock.  I have considered purchasing this gun for my first
flinter.

I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be historically
accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler of the
1780s through 1810. =20

I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here whether this
gun would be a good first time flinter purchase.

Thanks.

    -mwh



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
Date: 08 Nov 1998 16:34:30 -0600

Jon T.

The only attributed cookware of George Washington's, I am aware of, is
pictured
in "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution"=A0
George C.
Neumann and Frank J. Kravic=A0 ISBN 0-8117-0394-0

Page 94 shows the cook kit with plates, platters and pots all in tin.=A0=A0=
 The
confusion may result from the top of the Washington Monument being capped in
aluminum (the most expensive metal at the time it was built).

It is unlikely any early cookware was made of metal more valuable than gold.

I'm still digging for an exact date but, if memory serves to something noted
long ago in passing; the first aluminum was made somewhere in the late=
 1850's.

John...




At 06:33 AM 11/8/98 -0800, you wrote:=20

>
> Paul J. I also hope someone can come up some references for George
> Washington's =A0cook ware Now days it takes electric power to make=
 aluminum I
> am union pipe welder by trade and I worked with an old welder who could=
 weld
> aluminum with a torch. =A0But me it took a Tig welder. =A0But I can do mag=
ic
with
> a Tig torch. =A0I am going to also send this to the Hist-list. =A0Later=
 Jon T=20
>
> ----------
> : From: Paul Jacobson <[e-mail]>
> : To: [e-mail]
> : Subject: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
> : Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 1:39 PM
> :=20
> : These are interesting questions...I hope someone knows the answer and=
 will
> : include it here. =A0I can't add a thing of real value, except that my
mother,
> : bless her memory, got a set of aluminum cook ware for a wedding present=
 in
> : the late 20's/early 30's. =A0Rumor was the aluminum would poison the=
 cook,
> : but her South Dakota good sense thought that silly. =A0I still have 'em,=
 and
> : the big pan makes damn good popcorn. =A0It has since I was little=
 watching
> : Wallace Berry on our first TV.
> :=20
> : Cougar Heart
> : Paul Jacobson #1597
> : ----------
> : > From: WIDD-Tim Austin <[e-mail]>
> : > To: [e-mail]
> : > Subject: AMM-List: aluminum
> : > Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 6:37 AM
> : >=20
> : > Mr Kramer just brought up a subject that I have been interested in
> : > because of its current availability. =A0Aluminum. =A0Several years ago=
 I
read
> : > that a General George Washington, revolution war era, had a cook set=
 of
> : > aluminum. =A0Seems I also read the a Mr. Stewart took a set of=
 aluminum
> : > cook ware with him West of the Mississippi River when he went. =A0Does
> : > anyone have the exact documentation on this subject, or did my memory
> : > totally fail me on this one?
> : >=20
> : > Thank you for your assistance.
> : >=20
> : > Tim Austin #1564
> : >=20
> : > --------------------
> : > Aux Ailments de Pays!
> :=20
> : --------------------
> : Aux Ailments de Pays!



John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 08 Nov 1998 19:08:58 EST

If it is the Blue Ridge rifle that yall are talking about, I would caution
against it.  I bought one about a year ago and have had nothing but trouble.
Pedersoli makes this gun for cabelas and all though I have heard that
Pedersoli guns are pretty good quality, the ones sold through Cabela's are a
lesser grade.  I have had lots of ignition problems and had a gunsmith look at
the lock and frizzen.  He told me that the frizzen was of low carbon steel and
that the lock geometry was off.  I spoke with one of Pedersoli's distributors
and he said that he has seen lots of problems with the cabelas guns.  His
thought was that there is a reason they can sell them for less, like maybe
they take the reject locks or something.  Anyway, that is my opinion and is
worth what you paid for it.  But for my first flinter, it was nothing but
frustrating.

Grant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flinters (was Cabela's Flintlock)
Date: 08 Nov 1998 19:48:19 EST

just a note about the cheaper Cabela's as a "first flinter". You are headed
for trouble. If your first one has the best barrel and lock you can afford, it
may be your last one too.  A well built rifle (quality barrel and lock) will
outlast you, and will, with proper care, become an heirloom, just as they have
for generations. Your first rifle is NOT the place to scrimp on quality, as
the frustration of a poor shooting barrel or undependable lock will never be
worth what you saved on the gun.  Just an opinion.  YHS Shootz Himself



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 08 Nov 1998 17:32:11 -0800

Dick,

I would say that the right side of a river is the right side when looking up
stream. On the Columbia R. and as you inter port from seaward whether moving up
stream or not, the right side of the channel will be marked with red buoys and
the left with green buoys after you are far enough up the channel to be under
Inland Rules. Thus the law of the sea says that the right side of the river is to
your right as you move inland. Not to say that there are no other traditions but
this is what I would put my money on.

Now I can foresee a situation when running a river where you and others are
paddling independently and one fellow canoeist says he will make camp on the
right bank. If you are going down stream you better ask him which he considers
the right bank. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> Please clarify this for me.
> When someone writes or says that something is on the right side of a river is
> he refering to looking up or downstream?
> Thanks.
>         Dick






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
Date: 08 Nov 1998 21:00:54 EST

From the Hutchinson Encyclopedia:
History - Aluminium was first discovered by Humphry Davy 1807 and first
produced 1827 by Hans Oersted, who fused potassium with the anhydrous chlo=
ride
of aluminium in a closed crucible, obtaining the metal in the form of a gr=
ey
powder. Afterwards Friedrich W=F6hler improved this method and succeeded i=
n
procuring the metal in a purer form in fused globules and in determining i=
ts
relative density. However, no easy way could be found to produce it, and t=
he
shiny new metal became more precious than gold. Napoleon is said to have h=
ad a
set of aluminium cutlery made for his most honoured guests. I am looking f=
or
more source documents now, but to the best of my recollection, the first
recorded use of aluminum WAS for cutlery and cookware, made for Napoleon, =
not
Washington.  It WAS the most expensive metal in the world, and was chosen =
for
his Field Marshals for that reason. Aluminum (the element Al, atomic # 13)=
,
has been used since antiquity. As soon as I can find more details, I will
provide them.  YHS, Shootz Himself




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 08 Nov 1998 20:18:21 -0600

The U.S.Army Corps of Engineers says upstream.  That's good enough for me.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>Please clarify this for me.
>When someone writes or says that something is on the right side of a river
is
>he refering to looking up or downstream?
>Thanks.
>        Dick
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 29 Feb 1998 01:51:44 -0600

as dumb as i am i always was tought that when giving directions on a
river or body of water you looked up stream or toward the current---that
maked the right side the right side no mater what----look upstream---and
your right hand is on your right side---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:18:21 -0600 "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>The U.S.Army Corps of Engineers says upstream.  That's good enough for
>me.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 2:48 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: direction?
>
>
>>Please clarify this for me.
>>When someone writes or says that something is on the right side of a
>river
>is
>>he refering to looking up or downstream?
>>Thanks.
>>        Dick
>>
>>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 29 Feb 1998 01:46:11 -0600

why do people think that cheep is better------you get what you pay
for---most production guns from itally or spain are junk and darn few of
them are worth taking inside the house to keep the rain from making them
a pile of rusted junk---if you prise your limbs you will get something
that is worth shooting and not a wall hanger----why do you guys want this
trash---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:08:58 EST [e-mail] writes:
>If it is the Blue Ridge rifle that yall are talking about, I would
>caution
>against it.  I bought one about a year ago and have had nothing but
>trouble.
>Pedersoli makes this gun for cabelas and all though I have heard that
>Pedersoli guns are pretty good quality, the ones sold through Cabela's
>are a
>lesser grade.  I have had lots of ignition problems and had a gunsmith
>look at
>the lock and frizzen.  He told me that the frizzen was of low carbon
>steel and
>that the lock geometry was off.  I spoke with one of Pedersoli's
>distributors
>and he said that he has seen lots of problems with the cabelas guns.
>His
>thought was that there is a reason they can sell them for less, like
>maybe
>they take the reject locks or something.  Anyway, that is my opinion
>and is
>worth what you paid for it.  But for my first flinter, it was nothing
>but
>frustrating.
>
>Grant
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flinters (was Cabela's Flintlock)
Date: 29 Feb 1998 01:48:11 -0600

i second the motion ---and totally agree---junk is junk--trash is
trash---and quality will save your life---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:48:19 EST [e-mail] writes:
>just a note about the cheaper Cabela's as a "first flinter". You are
>headed
>for trouble. If your first one has the best barrel and lock you can
>afford, it
>may be your last one too.  A well built rifle (quality barrel and
>lock) will
>outlast you, and will, with proper care, become an heirloom, just as
>they have
>for generations. Your first rifle is NOT the place to scrimp on
>quality, as
>the frustration of a poor shooting barrel or undependable lock will
>never be
>worth what you saved on the gun.  Just an opinion.  YHS Shootz Himself
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
Date: 29 Feb 1998 01:36:42 -0600

WHAT GUN DID YOU GET---THEY HAVE SEVERAL 54 CAL---YOUR AMOUNT OF INPUT
WILL DETURMINE THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE---SMALL INPUT GETS SMALL
RESPONSE---LIKE NONE---LET US KNOW MORE INFO AND WE CAN HELP===

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600 "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hello List:
>
>    Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I
>could get
>an extra lock for it.  does any one in the USA make a lock that will
>fit it
>without carving on the stock.     who makes the lock for the
>Manufacture.
>
>                                                thanks LONE_WOLF
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 29 Feb 1998 01:41:01 -0600

IF THE LOCK WOULD NOT BE ACCURATE THEN THE GUN WOULD NOT BE CORRECT---WHY
DONT YOU LOOK AT A TRIDITIONAL MAKER---OR SOMETHING THAT IS HISTORICALLY
CORRECT---OR PERIOD CORRECT---END OF SUBJECT----
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 23:32:05 GMT [e-mail] (Mike Haught)
writes:
>I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's
>flintlock.  I have considered purchasing this gun for my first
>flinter.
>
>I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be historically
>accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler of the
>1780s through 1810. =20
>
>I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here whether this
>gun would be a good first time flinter purchase.
>
>Thanks.
>
>    -mwh
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
Date: 08 Nov 1998 19:55:46 -0700

I have welded aluminum with a torch since 1955, no big deal on 3/16 inch and
heavier pieces, used to weld many lawnmower decks for Toro and Lawn Boy
dealers, seems metal blades crack those decks when the blade hits the water
meter cap in the yard. Found the real problem was most of the time a teen
age kid was doing the mowing, and the quickier the mower quit, the quicker
they got to go play.

Anyway, "Utechic Corp." were the ones that came out with a rod with special
flux that made the job of welding aluminum a piece of cake. We kept it quite
for some time and got all the "special hard to do jobs". HA

As for Washington's Cook Set at Valley Forge, that one is made of tin of a
fine craftsman, got to handle it a few times when our next door neighbor was
involved at the museum there, Adrmiral Vernon L. Bigsby, retired, is the one
that took the pictures of the pieces of a copper canteen found at one of the
bunker sites (a mound of dirt) in Valley Forge Park, (I called him about the
canteen because of the usual inquires that we have all seen, "is it or isn't
correct" - Peter Gobel was going crazy as were several others in the
tin/copperware business, plus "were they available" - reason for calling),
this was just four or five years ago, the was question as to being correct
for the F&I boys by one of the National groups looking over that period
would not OK them.

Oh, some of the brothers were asking about locations of different rendezvous
sites, how close or accurate is the information in "Landmarks Of The Rocky
Mountain Fur Trade" by Pierce Olson!

Hope this helps on Washington's Cook Set and welding aluminum.

Buck

Aux Ailments de Pays!
_______________________
-----Original Message-----
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>


Jon T.

The only attributed cookware of George Washington's, I am aware of, is
pictured
in "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution"
George C.
Neumann and Frank J. Kravic ISBN 0-8117-0394-0

Page 94 shows the cook kit with plates, platters and pots all in tin. The
confusion may result from the top of the Washington Monument being capped in
aluminum (the most expensive metal at the time it was built).

It is unlikely any early cookware was made of metal more valuable than gold.

I'm still digging for an exact date but, if memory serves to something noted
long ago in passing; the first aluminum was made somewhere in the late
1850's.

John...




At 06:33 AM 11/8/98 -0800, you wrote:

>
> Paul J. I also hope someone can come up some references for George
> Washington's cook ware Now days it takes electric power to make aluminum I
> am union pipe welder by trade and I worked with an old welder who could
weld
> aluminum with a torch. But me it took a Tig welder. But I can do magic
with
> a Tig torch. I am going to also send this to the Hist-list. Later Jon T
>
> ----------
> : From: Paul Jacobson <[e-mail]>
> : To: [e-mail]
> : Subject: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
> : Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 1:39 PM
> :
> : These are interesting questions...I hope someone knows the answer and
will
> : include it here. I can't add a thing of real value, except that my
mother,
> : bless her memory, got a set of aluminum cook ware for a wedding present
in
> : the late 20's/early 30's. Rumor was the aluminum would poison the cook,
> : but her South Dakota good sense thought that silly. I still have 'em,
and
> : the big pan makes damn good popcorn. It has since I was little watching
> : Wallace Berry on our first TV.
> :
> : Cougar Heart
> : Paul Jacobson #1597
> : ----------
> : > From: WIDD-Tim Austin <[e-mail]>
> : > To: [e-mail]
> : > Subject: AMM-List: aluminum
> : > Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 6:37 AM
> : >
> : > Mr Kramer just brought up a subject that I have been interested in
> : > because of its current availability. Aluminum. Several years ago I
read
> : > that a General George Washington, revolution war era, had a cook set
of
> : > aluminum. Seems I also read the a Mr. Stewart took a set of aluminum
> : > cook ware with him West of the Mississippi River when he went. Does
> : > anyone have the exact documentation on this subject, or did my memory
> : > totally fail me on this one?
> : >
> : > Thank you for your assistance.
> : >
> : > Tim Austin #1564
> : >
> : > --------------------
> : > Aux Ailments de Pays!
> :
> : --------------------
> : Aux Ailments de Pays!



John T. Kramer, maker of:

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 08 Nov 1998 22:13:10 -0500

Mike Haught wrote:
>
> I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's
> flintlock.  I have considered purchasing this gun for my first
> flinter.
>
> I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be historically
> accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler of the
> 1780s through 1810.
>
> I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here whether this
> gun would be a good first time flinter purchase.

It's NOT, IMHO.  You'd be MUCH better off with a "Cumberland" from Deer
Creek's Wilderness Rifle Works line, which, by the way is semi-custom
hand-made, NOT production firearms from Italy like those from Cabelas.
Cut rifleing, curly maple stocks (NOT euorpean walnut or some odd-ball
wood), a properly designed and made lock, triggers, etc., are quality
accuratly reproduced items from good gun makers.  Quality doesn't cost
that much more.  Contact Bob at Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading for data and
prices.  E-mail address is: [e-mail].

Best,

Fred



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 08 Nov 1998 22:23:09 EST

Coast Guard 'Rules Of The Road' say direction is determined as you are looking
UPSTREAM.  The colored lights referred to in an earlier posting may be a bit
confusing. There is an old saying about a sailor named Red, who left port.
RED=LEFT=PORT.  YHS, Shootz Himself



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Flinters
Date: 28 Sep 1998 22:18:32 -0500

Does anyone know of a cyber address for NorthStar West?
Chases Hawks





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 08 Nov 1998 23:31:04 EST

In a message dated 11/8/98 12:56:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Please clarify this for me.
 When someone writes or says that something is on the right side of a river is
 he refering to looking up or downstream?
 Thanks.
         Dick >>
Hi, Dick

Looking downstream, Dick. Same question I had a couple years ago. Now that you
know you'll encounter it in your reading.

Tom Laidlaw



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Johnny Rutledge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
Date: 09 Nov 1998 06:32:23 -0600

IT IS A GOD DAMN HAWKINS FLINTER.  THE ONLY ONE THEY OFFER BUDDY.
-----Original Message-----


>WHAT GUN DID YOU GET---THEY HAVE SEVERAL 54 CAL---YOUR AMOUNT OF INPUT
>WILL DETURMINE THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE---SMALL INPUT GETS SMALL
>RESPONSE---LIKE NONE---LET US KNOW MORE INFO AND WE CAN HELP===
>
>HAWK
>MICHAEL PIERCE
>1-813-771-1815
>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>
>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600 "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE"
><[e-mail]> writes:
>>Hello List:
>>
>>    Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I
>>could get
>>an extra lock for it.  does any one in the USA make a lock that will
>>fit it
>>without carving on the stock.     who makes the lock for the
>>Manufacture.
>>
>>                                                thanks LONE_WOLF
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
Date: 09 Nov 1998 07:04:50 -0600

Although aluminum is the most abundant metal in the crust of the earth, it
was not used in antiquity because it has never been found in a free metal
form.  Aluminum is found naturally as a silicate or oxide.   It was first
isolated in 1825 by  Hans Christian Oersted
This is from Funk and Wagnalls New Encyclopedia (1979)

For aluminum, a clear distinction must be made between when it was
discovered and when it was produced in quantities even sufficient to
determine its properties, much less make cutlery.

The 1995 Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia says that

"In 1845, after many years of experimentation, Friedrich WOHLER succeeded
... in producing globules of aluminum large enough to allow the
determination of some of its properties.   In 1854, Henri Sainte-Claire
Deville ... produced the first commercial quantities of aluminum in a small
plant near Paris."

Funk and Waggnals says the Napoleon connection was through Napoleon III, who
funded Henri-Sainte-Clair Deville experiments to produce aluminum.  It was
so much a curiosity that Deville exhibited it at the Paris Exposition in
1855.  Napoleon III (1808-1873) was the nephew of the Napoleon who sold us
Louisianna.

I have heard the "conventional gray beard wisdom" that aluminum metal
existed in the period, but it was so expensive that only nobility could
afford it.  Even this is not true, unless you possiblly consider flecks of
the stuff smaller than globules as being of any utility.

Iron Burner





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Westenbarger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 09 Nov 1998 06:38:57 -0700

Interesting question.  Don't know about in a historic context but modern river
rats are
always facing downstream.  ie river right is your right hand side when facing
downstream.  It's kind of a general rule that prevents confusion in whitewater
situations.  Like having certain colored bouys on your right side when at sea
(which I didn't know.  I also didn't know the Army Corps faced upstream.).
Again I don't know if this would apply to boatmen with keelboats or steam.
Regardless of what the "rule" is it depends upon both partys in a conversation
knowing that rule.  If you read, hypothectically, "traveled the right side of
the river" in some Mtn man's journal we first might need to consider the
writer's backround.  Was he a sea-goer at one time, an engineer, a keal
boater, or strictly horse?  Gets confusing don't it?  When reading journals
perhaps it's best when encountering such a direction reference to read ahead
and find the destination or some other recognizable landmark before assuming
the writer is facing up or downstream.

Kurt

[e-mail] wrote:

> Please clarify this for me.
> When someone writes or says that something is on the right side of a river is
> he refering to looking up or downstream?
> Thanks.
>         Dick



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: paul mueller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
Date: 09 Nov 1998 09:08:52 -0500

John Kramer wrote:
>
> Jon T.
>
> The only attributed cookware of George Washington's, I am aware of, is
> pictured
> in "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution"
> George C.
> Neumann and Frank J. Kravic  ISBN 0-8117-0394-0
>
> Page 94 shows the cook kit with plates, platters and pots all in tin.   The
> confusion may result from the top of the Washington Monument being capped in
> aluminum (the most expensive metal at the time it was built).
>
> It is unlikely any early cookware was made of metal more valuable than gold.
>
> I'm still digging for an exact date but, if memory serves to something noted
> long ago in passing; the first aluminum was made somewhere in the late 1850's.
>
> John...
>
> At 06:33 AM 11/8/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >
> > Paul J. I also hope someone can come up some references for George
> > Washington's  cook ware Now days it takes electric power to make aluminum I
> > am union pipe welder by trade and I worked with an old welder who could weld
> > aluminum with a torch.  But me it took a Tig welder.  But I can do magic
> with
> > a Tig torch.  I am going to also send this to the Hist-list.  Later Jon T
> >
> > ----------
> > : From: Paul Jacobson <[e-mail]>
> > : To: [e-mail]
> > : Subject: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
> > : Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 1:39 PM
> > :
> > : These are interesting questions...I hope someone knows the answer and will
> > : include it here.  I can't add a thing of real value, except that my
> mother,
> > : bless her memory, got a set of aluminum cook ware for a wedding present in
> > : the late 20's/early 30's.  Rumor was the aluminum would poison the cook,
> > : but her South Dakota good sense thought that silly.  I still have 'em, and
> > : the big pan makes damn good popcorn.  It has since I was little watching
> > : Wallace Berry on our first TV.
> > :
> > : Cougar Heart
> > : Paul Jacobson #1597
> > : ----------
> > : > From: WIDD-Tim Austin <[e-mail]>
> > : > To: [e-mail]
> > : > Subject: AMM-List: aluminum
> > : > Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 6:37 AM
> > : >
> > : > Mr Kramer just brought up a subject that I have been interested in
> > : > because of its current availability.  Aluminum.  Several years ago I
> read
> > : > that a General George Washington, revolution war era, had a cook set of
> > : > aluminum.  Seems I also read the a Mr. Stewart took a set of aluminum
> > : > cook ware with him West of the Mississippi River when he went.  Does
> > : > anyone have the exact documentation on this subject, or did my memory
> > : > totally fail me on this one?
> > : >
> > : > Thank you for your assistance.
> > : >
> > : > Tim Austin #1564
> > : >
> > : > --------------------
> > : > Aux Ailments de Pays!
> > :
> > : --------------------
> > : Aux Ailments de Pays!
>
> John T. Kramer, maker of:
>
> Kramer's Best Antique Improver
> >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>         >>>As good as old!<<<
>
> <http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
> mail to: <[e-mail]>

  Napoleon's buttons spoon ,plate,fork,and a cup was made from
aluminum such came the name Napoleon"s silver.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
Date: 09 Nov 1998 12:01:46 -0600

At 09:08 AM 11/9/98 -0500, Paul wrote:
>
>=A0 Napoleon's buttons spoon ,plate,fork,and a cup was made from
>aluminum such came the name Napoleon"s silver.
>=20

Napoleon III -- maybe -- certainly not the little Corporal who died in 1821
four years before Oersted first isolated the metal. =20

Worldwide aluminum production in 1886 (the year the Hall-Heroult process=
 with
bauxite was discovered) was less than 100 pounds.

Napoleon III may have had aluminum stuff made from metal derived from
experiments he funded for Deville.  It was certainly not common.  Rare and
precious as befits an Emperor.  But only after 1850 and before 1873 when
Napoleon III died.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:28:52 -0600

YOU MIGHT NOT WANT MY HELP BUT HERE IS ABOUT ALL I CAN DO FOR YOU-----

it is not a hawkins flinter it is a plains style of rifle that they call
a hawkins---that is like a tompson center being a Hawkins rifle----I own
2 originals---one in percussion and one in flint and have 2 others that
are custom made to look like a hawkins---they are plains rifles---OR
REPRODUCTIONS

NOW TO YOUR QUESTION AT HAND ABOUT THE LOCK----to the best of my
knowledge there is not a exact duplicate replacement for the one you
have---its shape and size is a bit different than most of the ones out
there that are made---suggest you  call siler and order a catalog---they
have a plate that can be cut to fit your opening or you can use their
guts and make your own plate to fit in the hole you have---their internal
parts are of good quality  and can be assembeled using a drill press and
3 different drill bita and one tap----they have a plastic alignment tool
that comes with their kits for drilling---their instructions are real
clear and understandable---follow the directions and take your time and
dont horse the tap(YOU DO AND YOU WILL BREAK IT)---make sure you use the
size of drill that they recomend ---when i put their kits together i
usually build A dozen at a time and have made my own perminant drill
jigs---can put one together in anout 30 min---if you have never put one
together then it will take about 2 hrs if you take it slow and watch what
you are doing---their kit runs less than  $50.00.

PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR BEING SNIPPY ABOUT HAWKINS---THAT IS A PET PEVE OF
MINE ---A HAWKINS IS A HAWKINS AND ANYTHING ELSE IS A REPRODUCTION OR A
PLAINS RIFLE---MY ORIGINAL HAWKINS HAS MADE MEAT ALMOST EVER YEAR FOR THE
LAST 10 OR 12----YELLOW FEATHER CAN VERIFY THAT----JUST CAME FROM
ARKANSAS WHERE WE HUNTED TOGETHER---FOR MUZZLE LOADING SEASON---i KILLED
A BIG DOE-------BTW---i NORMALLY HUNT DURING RIFLE SEASON WITH THE SAME
RIFLE.

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:32:23 -0600 "Johnny Rutledge"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>IT IS A GOD DAMN HAWKINS FLINTER.  THE ONLY ONE THEY OFFER BUDDY.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:54 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
>
>
>>WHAT GUN DID YOU GET---THEY HAVE SEVERAL 54 CAL---YOUR AMOUNT OF
>INPUT
>>WILL DETURMINE THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE---SMALL INPUT GETS SMALL
>>RESPONSE---LIKE NONE---LET US KNOW MORE INFO AND WE CAN HELP===
>>
>>HAWK
>>MICHAEL PIERCE
>>1-813-771-1815
>>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>>
>>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600 "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE"
>><[e-mail]> writes:
>>>Hello List:
>>>
>>>    Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I
>>>could get
>>>an extra lock for it.  does any one in the USA make a lock that will
>
>>>fit it
>>>without carving on the stock.     who makes the lock for the
>>>Manufacture.
>>>
>>>                                                thanks LONE_WOLF
>>>
>>>
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 00:35:54 -0600

what is your price range that will deturmine what you will be able to
buy---let me know your price range and i will give you a list of makers
that make kits or semifinished guns or complete guns---a bunch of good
ones out there and a bunch of junk---dont scrimp on the lock and the
barrel---that is the heart of the muzzle loader---

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 22:13:10 -0500 "Fred A. Miller"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Mike Haught wrote:
>>
>> I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's
>> flintlock.  I have considered purchasing this gun for my first
>> flinter.
>>
>> I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be
>historically
>> accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler of
>the
>> 1780s through 1810.
>>
>> I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here whether
>this
>> gun would be a good first time flinter purchase.
>
>It's NOT, IMHO.  You'd be MUCH better off with a "Cumberland" from
>Deer
>Creek's Wilderness Rifle Works line, which, by the way is semi-custom
>hand-made, NOT production firearms from Italy like those from Cabelas.
>
>Cut rifleing, curly maple stocks (NOT euorpean walnut or some odd-ball
>wood), a properly designed and made lock, triggers, etc., are quality
>accuratly reproduced items from good gun makers.  Quality doesn't cost
>that much more.  Contact Bob at Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading for data
>and
>prices.  E-mail address is: [e-mail].
>
>Best,
>
>Fred
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
Date: 09 Nov 1998 10:39:29 -0800

Regarding the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:
As I recall, the frame was lugged over the mountains to the first =
western
flowing stream, where the Corps attempted to complete the plan of =
covering
it with skins (not rubber). This was one of several "high tech" devices
produced to support the expedition, such as the well known lead =
canisters
with powder, the air rifle, and the 1803 pattern Harper's Ferry rifles. =
This
one, however, failed, despite the best efforts of Lewis, as recounted =
in
"Undaunted Courage". They used glover's needles to sew the skins, which
produced slight slits which opened up under strain, and they couldn't =
get
adequate pitch or a substitute for sealing. After some weeks of effort,
Lewis had to abandon the project and cached the frame. Meanwhile, Clark =
had
moved men downstream until they found cottonwoods big enough to make
dugouts, which carried them down river to the Pacific.=20
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:59 AM


Ho the list,
=A0
A question was raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and =
Clark
had a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating to =
rubber
ponchos, etc.
=A0
Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame =
(made
in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as Great =
Falls
where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was intended to be
covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good description of =
it,
it was probably something like an Irish curragh--or even like a Mandan
bullboat.
=A0
John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two =
expeditions
into the West. He refers to them as "India rubber" boats and mentions =
them
in his journals as being used on both the North Platte and the Great =
Salt
Lake. His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. The next year, =
on
Salt Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as well since it =
wasn't
"as well stitched together" as the one used on his first expedition. =
This
suggests a boat made from several pieces of material sewn in some =
fashion.
These rubber boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide and could carry a
wagon. They were apparently inflatable (he=A0 mentions several places =
"filling
our India rubber boat with air"). Best source for Fremont is Donald =
Jackson
and Mary Spence (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 =
vols.
Univ. of Illinois Press.
=A0
If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then =
obviously
the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. out of =
rubber
or rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the Rocky =
Mountain
fur trade era.
=A0
Keep your powder dry.
=A0
John
=A0
Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>=20
=A0
=A0




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
Date: 09 Nov 1998 13:37:26 -0500

Hey John.... take the CAPS LOCK off... yer yelling... :))


-----Original Message-----


>IT IS A GOD DAMN HAWKINS FLINTER.  THE ONLY ONE THEY OFFER BUDDY.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:54 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
>
>
>>WHAT GUN DID YOU GET---THEY HAVE SEVERAL 54 CAL---YOUR AMOUNT OF INPUT
>>WILL DETURMINE THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE---SMALL INPUT GETS SMALL
>>RESPONSE---LIKE NONE---LET US KNOW MORE INFO AND WE CAN HELP===
>>
>>HAWK
>>MICHAEL PIERCE
>>1-813-771-1815
>>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>>
>>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600 "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE"
>><[e-mail]> writes:
>>>Hello List:
>>>
>>>    Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I
>>>could get
>>>an extra lock for it.  does any one in the USA make a lock that will
>>>fit it
>>>without carving on the stock.     who makes the lock for the
>>>Manufacture.
>>>
>>>                                                thanks LONE_WOLF
>>>
>>>
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: direction again
Date: 09 Nov 1998 13:46:16 EST

Hello the List
I'm getting mixed answers to my prior question.  What caused me to ask was
this line from Dale Morgan's  1953 book 'Jedediah Smith' in which Morgan
states....
"The Hudson's Bay Company's advance base, Flathead Post, was situated on the
right bank of Clark's Fork at present Eddy".
I can't find Eddy on a map but it's beside the point.
So the question remains.... when one writes /says that something is on a
particular side of a river, is he looking upstream or downstream?    (I've
always assumed upstream but something has made me doubt).
'Thank you' to all who took the time to reply previously.
      Dick



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction again
Date: 09 Nov 1998 13:52:13 EST

In a message dated 11/9/98 10:48:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< So the question remains.... when one writes /says that something is on a
 particular side of a river, is he looking upstream or downstream?    (I've
 always assumed upstream but something has made me doubt).
 'Thank you' to all who took the time to reply previously.
       Dick
  >>
Downstream, Dick

I'll try to find a reference that includes that clue.

Tom Laidlaw



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction again
Date: 09 Nov 1998 13:20:08 -0600

http://roadmaps.lycos.com:90/cgi-bin/mqcustomconnect?screen=find&link=map&city=Eddy&state=MT&orig_lat=475583&orig_lng=-1151322&orig_name=Eddy&lat=475583&lng=-1151322&orig_icon_on=1&orig_search=1&orig_iconid=2&level=7&event=zoom

shows Eddy, Montana on the right bank, looking _downstream_, of Clark
Fork

Iron Burner

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> . . .   What caused me to ask was
> this line from Dale Morgan's  1953 book 'Jedediah Smith' in which Morgan
> states....
> "The Hudson's Bay Company's advance base, Flathead Post, was situated on the
> right bank of Clark's Fork at present Eddy".

> So the question remains.... when one writes /says that something is on a
> particular side of a river, is he looking upstream or downstream?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Monte Holder <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark slept here
Date: 09 Nov 1998 13:44:06 -0600

  Hey camp,  in the December Popular Science there is an article in "NEwsfronts" about a campsite believed to have been the Lower Portage Camp near Great Falls Montana. ITs  on page 21 and pretty interesting, not worth buying the
whole mag, but I got a free subscription  here at school for some reason.

Monte Holder
Saline Co MO




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
Date: 09 Nov 1998 17:28:01 EST

on a humorous note: you really gotta love this list....... left is right or
right is left (depending on if you're the government or a mountain man);
cabela's makes Hawkins rifles (thought only the Hawkins did that or maybe they
made plains rifles), and aluminIUM (an elemental, very common metal) and
aluminUM are the same thing. one encyclopedia say aluminIUM has been used
since antiquity and another quote says its not so (even they were not refering
to the same thing).  you can't say it isn't interesting, even though its
somewhat confusing at times. It seems the best advise about these things is
the same as it always has been....... check the written records; see if it was
DOCUMENTED as being in use during the period and most importantly, COMMUNICATE
with those you are traveling with to be sure where you are going/meeting. YHS,
Shootz Himself



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Terry Landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: re:mt-man list:cabelas flintlock
Date: 09 Nov 1998 15:17:27 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE0BF4.0FF82900
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I bought a cabelas percussion used this year. not only is it heavy in the
field, but due to the poor sites (which self adjust when you don't want them
to! and the poor beach design which seems to misfire a lot.) I missed a 6
point elk and several cows in 11 days worth of hunting. I personally bought
a tvm Virginia style rifle in flint. the base price for their guns is about
average to moderate, but several x-tras are available to really customize
your gun to the way you want it. heres their URL  http://www.avsia.com/tvm/

check around before you buy as others have said junk is junk.  I looked long
and hard before I bought mine, and aside from making your own- the best bet
seems to be pay for what you get.

Terry Landis

Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a buckskiner and
soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest!




------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE0BF4.0FF82900
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>Untitled Stationery</TITLE>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3>I bought a cabelas percussion used this year. not only is it =
heavy in the=20
field, but due to the poor sites (which self adjust when you don't want =
them to!=20
and the poor beach design which seems to misfire a lot.) I missed a 6 =
point elk=20
and several cows in 11 days worth of hunting. I personally bought a tvm =
Virginia=20
style rifle in flint. the base price for their guns is about average to=20
moderate, but several x-tras are available to really customize your gun =
to the=20
way you want it. heres their URL  <A=20
href=3D"http://www">http://www.</A>avsia.com/tvm/ </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D3>   </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D3>check around before you buy as =
others have said=20
junk is junk.  I looked long and hard before I bought mine, and =
aside from=20
making your own- the best bet seems to be pay for what you=20
get.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
size=3D3>Terry Landis</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D5>
<P>Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a =
buckskiner and=20
soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest!=20
<DIV></DIV>
<P></P></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE0BF4.0FF82900--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
Date: 09 Nov 1998 18:26:33 -0500

More on the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:

As my original message stated, the iron frame boat was intended to be
covered with skins or bark. Rubber was never--as far as I know--even
suggested.

The boat was NOT carried across the mountains. It was abandoned during the
portage around Great Falls (of the Missouri). After covering the iron frame
with skins on July 9, 1805 (above the Great Falls), to produce the
collapsible boat, Lewis tried to make her river-worthy. The buffalo hides,
however, shrunk and the iron boat foundered. Knowing that it was too late in
the season to get and prepare more buffalo hides, the decision was made to
abandon the iron frame.To quote from the Journals, Lewis's entry for
Tuesday, July 9th, 1805: I therefore relinquished all further hope of my
favorite boat and ordered her to be sunk in the water, that the skins might
become soft in order the better to take her in peices [sic] tomorrow and
deposited the iron fraim [sic] at this place as it could probably be of no
further service to us.

This was end of the iron boat experiment. Ken Karsminski of the Museum of
the Rockies in Bozeman, MT, has made a concerted search for the iron frame
in the Great Falls area without success. My guess is that the Indians found
it and broke it up for the iron to use in war-axes, etc.

But the iron or collapsible boat did most certainly not cross the Rockies
with the Expedition.

Keep your powder dry.

John.

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


-----Original Message-----


>Regarding the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:
>As I recall, the frame was lugged over the mountains to the first western
>flowing stream, where the Corps attempted to complete the plan of covering
>it with skins (not rubber). This was one of several "high tech" devices
>produced to support the expedition, such as the well known lead canisters
>with powder, the air rifle, and the 1803 pattern Harper's Ferry rifles.
This
>one, however, failed, despite the best efforts of Lewis, as recounted in
>"Undaunted Courage". They used glover's needles to sew the skins, which
>produced slight slits which opened up under strain, and they couldn't get
>adequate pitch or a substitute for sealing. After some weeks of effort,
>Lewis had to abandon the project and cached the frame. Meanwhile, Clark had
>moved men downstream until they found cottonwoods big enough to make
>dugouts, which carried them down river to the Pacific.
>Pat Quilter
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John L. Allen [mailto:[e-mail]]
>Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:59 AM
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
>
>
>Ho the list,
>
>A question was raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and Clark
>had a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating to rubber
>ponchos, etc.
>
>Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame
(made
>in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as Great Falls
>where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was intended to be
>covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good description of it,
>it was probably something like an Irish curragh--or even like a Mandan
>bullboat.
>
>John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two expeditions
>into the West. He refers to them as "India rubber" boats and mentions them
>in his journals as being used on both the North Platte and the Great Salt
>Lake. His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. The next year, on
>Salt Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as well since it
wasn't
>"as well stitched together" as the one used on his first expedition. This
>suggests a boat made from several pieces of material sewn in some fashion.
>These rubber boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide and could carry a
>wagon. They were apparently inflatable (he mentions several places "filling
>our India rubber boat with air"). Best source for Fremont is Donald Jackson
>and Mary Spence (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 vols.
>Univ. of Illinois Press.
>
>If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then obviously
>the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. out of rubber
>or rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the Rocky Mountain
>fur trade era.
>
>Keep your powder dry.
>
>John
>
>Dr. John L. Allen
>21 Thomas Drive
>Storrs, CT 06268
>860/487-1346
>[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
Date: 09 Nov 1998 15:38:13 -0800

Thanks for the correction. I have always been a little hazy on the details
of the Corp's crossing of the Rockies, other than knowing it took a long
time and dashed their hopes of an easy "voyageur" style route to the west
coast. I just assumed that they would not try to use the collapsible until
they had crossed the continental divide, whereas your notes show that they
(sensibly) tried to test the boat after clearing the first major barrier to
navigation. Shows the dangers of using "common sense" and general memories
rather than the actual documentation.
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 3:27 PM


More on the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:

As my original message stated, the iron frame boat was intended to be
covered with skins or bark. Rubber was never--as far as I know--even
suggested.

The boat was NOT carried across the mountains. It was abandoned during the
portage around Great Falls (of the Missouri). After covering the iron frame
with skins on July 9, 1805 (above the Great Falls), to produce the
collapsible boat, Lewis tried to make her river-worthy. The buffalo hides,
however, shrunk and the iron boat foundered. Knowing that it was too late in
the season to get and prepare more buffalo hides, the decision was made to
abandon the iron frame.To quote from the Journals, Lewis's entry for
Tuesday, July 9th, 1805: I therefore relinquished all further hope of my
favorite boat and ordered her to be sunk in the water, that the skins might
become soft in order the better to take her in peices [sic] tomorrow and
deposited the iron fraim [sic] at this place as it could probably be of no
further service to us.

This was end of the iron boat experiment. Ken Karsminski of the Museum of
the Rockies in Bozeman, MT, has made a concerted search for the iron frame
in the Great Falls area without success. My guess is that the Indians found
it and broke it up for the iron to use in war-axes, etc.

But the iron or collapsible boat did most certainly not cross the Rockies
with the Expedition.

Keep your powder dry.

John.

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


-----Original Message-----


>Regarding the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:
>As I recall, the frame was lugged over the mountains to the first western
>flowing stream, where the Corps attempted to complete the plan of covering
>it with skins (not rubber). This was one of several "high tech" devices
>produced to support the expedition, such as the well known lead canisters
>with powder, the air rifle, and the 1803 pattern Harper's Ferry rifles.
This
>one, however, failed, despite the best efforts of Lewis, as recounted in
>"Undaunted Courage". They used glover's needles to sew the skins, which
>produced slight slits which opened up under strain, and they couldn't get
>adequate pitch or a substitute for sealing. After some weeks of effort,
>Lewis had to abandon the project and cached the frame. Meanwhile, Clark had
>moved men downstream until they found cottonwoods big enough to make
>dugouts, which carried them down river to the Pacific.
>Pat Quilter
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John L. Allen [mailto:[e-mail]]
>Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:59 AM
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
>
>
>Ho the list,
>
>A question was raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and Clark
>had a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating to rubber
>ponchos, etc.
>
>Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame
(made
>in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as Great Falls
>where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was intended to be
>covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good description of it,
>it was probably something like an Irish curragh--or even like a Mandan
>bullboat.
>
>John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two expeditions
>into the West. He refers to them as "India rubber" boats and mentions them
>in his journals as being used on both the North Platte and the Great Salt
>Lake. His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. The next year, on
>Salt Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as well since it
wasn't
>"as well stitched together" as the one used on his first expedition. This
>suggests a boat made from several pieces of material sewn in some fashion.
>These rubber boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide and could carry a
>wagon. They were apparently inflatable (he mentions several places "filling
>our India rubber boat with air"). Best source for Fremont is Donald Jackson
>and Mary Spence (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 vols.
>Univ. of Illinois Press.
>
>If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then obviously
>the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. out of rubber
>or rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the Rocky Mountain
>fur trade era.
>
>Keep your powder dry.
>
>John
>
>Dr. John L. Allen
>21 Thomas Drive
>Storrs, CT 06268
>860/487-1346
>[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Phil Petersen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hat Pattern
Date: 09 Nov 1998 21:34:11 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BE0C28.B0F628A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello to the list.  I have several brain tanned deer hides.  I am =
wanting to make a hat.  I would like the hat to have a 3 or 4 inch brim. =
 Does anyone know where I could get a pattern?  Thanks in advance.  =
Please reply to:  [e-mail]

Phil=20

------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BE0C28.B0F628A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello to the list.  I have =
several brain=20
tanned deer hides.  I am wanting to make a hat.  I would like =
the hat=20
to have a 3 or 4 inch brim.  Does anyone know where I could get a=20
pattern?  Thanks in advance.  Please reply to: =20
[e-mail]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>Phil </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BE0C28.B0F628A0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Mike Haught)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 03:37:47 GMT

Well, let's say $500 is in my price range right now.

    -mwh

On Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:35:54 -0600, you wrote:

>what is your price range that will deturmine what you will be able to
>buy---let me know your price range and i will give you a list of makers
>that make kits or semifinished guns or complete guns---a bunch of good
>ones out there and a bunch of junk---dont scrimp on the lock and the
>barrel---that is the heart of the muzzle loader---
>
>HAWK
>MICHAEL PIERCE
>1-813-771-1815
>E-MAIL ADDRESS=3D=[e-mail]
>
>On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 22:13:10 -0500 "Fred A. Miller"
><[e-mail]> writes:
>>Mike Haught wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's
>>> flintlock.  I have considered purchasing this gun for my first
>>> flinter.
>>>=20
>>> I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be=20
>>historically
>>> accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler of=20
>>the
>>> 1780s through 1810.
>>>=20
>>> I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here whether=20
>>this
>>> gun would be a good first time flinter purchase.
>>
>>It's NOT, IMHO.  You'd be MUCH better off with a "Cumberland" from=20
>>Deer
>>Creek's Wilderness Rifle Works line, which, by the way is semi-custom
>>hand-made, NOT production firearms from Italy like those from Cabelas.=20
>>
>>Cut rifleing, curly maple stocks (NOT euorpean walnut or some odd-ball
>>wood), a properly designed and made lock, triggers, etc., are quality
>>accuratly reproduced items from good gun makers.  Quality doesn't cost
>>that much more.  Contact Bob at Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading for data=20
>>and
>>prices.  E-mail address is: [e-mail].
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Fred
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hat Pattern
Date: 09 Nov 1998 19:46:25 -0800

Don't ruin your hides makin a hat, send em to me and I'll give you a
real purdy hat I got layin around.
Sega
Phil Petersen wrote:

>  Hello to the list.  I have several brain tanned deer hides.  I am
> wanting to make a hat.  I would like the hat to have a 3 or 4 inch
> brim.  Does anyone know where I could get a pattern?  Thanks in
> advance.  Please reply to:  [e-mail] Phil






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 09 Nov 1998 23:41:13 EST


In a message dated 11/8/98 5:36:45 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<I would say that the right side of a river is the right side when looking up
stream. >>

A good way to remember that is the old saying, "red, right, returning" I agree
with you Capt. Lathi.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
Date: 09 Nov 1998 21:37:55 -0700

Thank You Addison.
-----Original Message-----


>Hey John.... take the CAPS LOCK off... yer yelling... :))
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Johnny Rutledge <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 7:39 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
>
>
>>IT IS A GOD DAMN HAWKINS FLINTER.  THE ONLY ONE THEY OFFER BUDDY.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:54 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
>>
>>
>>>WHAT GUN DID YOU GET---THEY HAVE SEVERAL 54 CAL---YOUR AMOUNT OF INPUT
>>>WILL DETURMINE THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE---SMALL INPUT GETS SMALL
>>>RESPONSE---LIKE NONE---LET US KNOW MORE INFO AND WE CAN HELP===
>>>
>>>HAWK
>>>MICHAEL PIERCE
>>>1-813-771-1815
>>>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>>>
>>>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600 "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE"
>>><[e-mail]> writes:
>>>>Hello List:
>>>>
>>>>    Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I
>>>>could get
>>>>an extra lock for it.  does any one in the USA make a lock that will
>>>>fit it
>>>>without carving on the stock.     who makes the lock for the
>>>>Manufacture.
>>>>
>>>>                                                thanks LONE_WOLF
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>___________________________________________________________________
>>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 09 Nov 1998 23:49:41 EST

Well Hawk,  I can only think that most people don't have a hell of alot of
money to go and buy the good stuff. Pretty hard to beat a Thompson Center
Hawken (not even close, but a good little shooter) until ya can beg, borrow,
or steal, to get a good gun..... At least you're burnin black powder!
Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 09 Nov 1998 21:00:01 -0800

If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about the best
of the inexpensive guns out there.  It is a very close copy of an original
Hawken and shoots darn well.  You can remove the bluing of the finished gun and
then brown the metal or build it from a kit and make it look right.  For $300.00
I don't think it can be beat!  Personal preference prevails here but a gun worth
mentioning.

Medicine Bear
(yes, new e-mail address for those who know me)

[e-mail] wrote:

> Well Hawk,  I can only think that most people don't have a hell of alot of
> money to go and buy the good stuff. Pretty hard to beat a Thompson Center
> Hawken (not even close, but a good little shooter) until ya can beg, borrow,
> or steal, to get a good gun..... At least you're burnin black powder!
> Steve




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 05:08:05 GMT

On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:00:01 -0800, you wrote:

It's actually a copy of one of the originals.  IMHO, the frizzen
spring on the flinters I've seen is too stiff, but that's easily
corrected.  Haven't priced them via Shotgun News recently, but you
used to be able (6-12 months ago) to get the flint kit for around $230
as I recall.  Good shooter, and much more authentic than anything else
I can think of in their price range.

>If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about =
the best
>of the inexpensive guns out there.  It is a very close copy of an =
original
>Hawken and shoots darn well.  You can remove the bluing of the finished =
gun and
>then brown the metal or build it from a kit and make it look right.  For=
 $300.00
>I don't think it can be beat!  Personal preference prevails here but a =
gun worth
>mentioning.
>
>Medicine Bear
>(yes, new e-mail address for those who know me)
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Well Hawk,  I can only think that most people don't have a hell of =
alot of
>> money to go and buy the good stuff. Pretty hard to beat a Thompson =
Center
>> Hawken (not even close, but a good little shooter) until ya can beg, =
borrow,
>> or steal, to get a good gun..... At least you're burnin black powder!
>> Steve
>
>

Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 05:11:53 GMT

Check out TVM's stuff.  I saw their display at the T.A.B. Rendezvous a
week ago, and it was outstanding.  They have some excellent deals,
especially if you're willing to do some assembly yourself.  Couple of
my buds have rifles from these folks, and they perform well.  I don't
own one (saw a couple I wanted real bad!).  Usual disclaimer, no
affiliation with them at all, except for being impressed with their
wares.  Note, their rifles are NOT cheap, neither is the apparent
quality, but seems to fit your price tag.


On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:37:47 GMT, you wrote:

>Well, let's say $500 is in my price range right now.
>
>    -mwh
>
>On Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:35:54 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>what is your price range that will deturmine what you will be able to
>>buy---let me know your price range and i will give you a list of makers
>>that make kits or semifinished guns or complete guns---a bunch of good
>>ones out there and a bunch of junk---dont scrimp on the lock and the
>>barrel---that is the heart of the muzzle loader---
>>
>>HAWK
>>MICHAEL PIERCE
>>1-813-771-1815
>>E-MAIL ADDRESS=3D=[e-mail]
>>
>>On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 22:13:10 -0500 "Fred A. Miller"
>><[e-mail]> writes:
>>>Mike Haught wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's
>>>> flintlock.  I have considered purchasing this gun for my first
>>>> flinter.
>>>>=20
>>>> I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be=20
>>>historically
>>>> accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler of=20
>>>the
>>>> 1780s through 1810.
>>>>=20
>>>> I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here whether=20
>>>this
>>>> gun would be a good first time flinter purchase.
>>>
>>>It's NOT, IMHO.  You'd be MUCH better off with a "Cumberland" from=20
>>>Deer
>>>Creek's Wilderness Rifle Works line, which, by the way is semi-custom
>>>hand-made, NOT production firearms from Italy like those from Cabelas.=
=20
>>>
>>>Cut rifleing, curly maple stocks (NOT euorpean walnut or some odd-ball
>>>wood), a properly designed and made lock, triggers, etc., are quality
>>>accuratly reproduced items from good gun makers.  Quality doesn't cost
>>>that much more.  Contact Bob at Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading for data=20
>>>and
>>>prices.  E-mail address is: [e-mail].
>>>
>>>Best,
>>>
>>>Fred
>>>
>>>
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at =
http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>

Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 09 Nov 1998 21:16:59 -0800

You're right Roy, $300.00 was for the finished gun.

MB

Roy Parker wrote:

> On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:00:01 -0800, you wrote:
>
> It's actually a copy of one of the originals.  IMHO, the frizzen
> spring on the flinters I've seen is too stiff, but that's easily
> corrected.  Haven't priced them via Shotgun News recently, but you
> used to be able (6-12 months ago) to get the flint kit for around $230
> as I recall.  Good shooter, and much more authentic than anything else
> I can think of in their price range.
>
> >If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about the best
> >of the inexpensive guns out there.  It is a very close copy of an original
> >Hawken and shoots darn well.  You can remove the bluing of the finished gun and
> >then brown the metal or build it from a kit and make it look right.  For $300.00
> >I don't think it can be beat!  Personal preference prevails here but a gun worth
> >mentioning.
> >
> >Medicine Bear
> >(yes, new e-mail address for those who know me)
> >
> >[e-mail] wrote:
> >
> >> Well Hawk,  I can only think that most people don't have a hell of alot of
> >> money to go and buy the good stuff. Pretty hard to beat a Thompson Center
> >> Hawken (not even close, but a good little shooter) until ya can beg, borrow,
> >> or steal, to get a good gun..... At least you're burnin black powder!
> >> Steve
> >
> >
>
> Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS".
> 1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 00:24:00 -0600

Washtahay-

someone  wrote:
>If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about the
best
>of the inexpensive guns out there.  It is a very close copy of an original
>Hawken and shoots darn well.
    Horse apples!  Show me the Hawken that the Lyman Great Plains Rifle is a
"very close copy of".  It ain't, and saying it is, or wishful thinking,
doesn't make it so.

and someone else wrote (apparently in reference to "Cabelas flintlock":
>It's actually a copy of one of the originals.
    One of the original WHAT?  One of those damn cheap misbegotten worthless
copies of the T/C Hawken made in Italy back in the '70s?  An Ultra-HI
"Minuteman Rifle"?  I guess you can say ANYTHING is a copy-but do you want
to buy the "copy" of Ashley's signature I just did on the notepad by my
computer?   Is anyone really going to think that its a particularly GOOD
copy, when if you look you can plainly see I wrote "Willyum Hank Ashly"?
    I get so damn tired of pussy-footing around to avoid hurting someone's
feelings in Re: their rifles, so I ain't gonna do it any more.  Folks, if I
attack your gun, it ain't personal.

    Frankly, Cabelas gun isn't particularly authentic in appearance.  It isn't
particularly well made, in comparison to a number of other weapons
around-Lyman's GPR and the T/C Hawken to name two.  Neither of those is
particularly authentic in appearance either-and anyone who really thinks so
is demonstrating his or her ignorance-but I don't question the safety of
them.  Their locks don't let go, tumbler notches creeping like both of the
Cabelas flinters I have seen (and those were showroom models AT Cabelas!).
I am particularly fearful of newbies with self-firing rifles!

>IMHO, the frizzen
>spring on the flinters I've seen is too stiff, but that's easily
>corrected.
    Mebbeso, if you know what you are doing.  How many greenhorns do?  And
after they fix the feather spring, do they know how to re-harden the
frizzen?  Re-cut the tumbler notches?  DO THEY KNOW ENOUGH TO TELL WHEN THE
LOCK IS TOO WORN TO BE SAFE?????

>Haven't priced them via Shotgun News recently, but you
>used to be able (6-12 months ago) to get the flint kit for around $230
>as I recall.
    Whoopee.  If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job and wait
til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have gotten a decent
gun.

>Good shooter, and much more authentic than anything else
>I can think of in their price range.
    How 'bout a rock?  Cheap.  Authentic.  And it'll be functional a long time
after that (&%%&*&$^% is thrown away.
LongWalker c. du B.






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 02:07:31 EST

bless you Longwalker. 'bout damn time somebody said it like it is.  there are
LOTS of accurate (in more ways than one)  quality rifles out there in the
price range mentioned, especially in the white, but Cabela's, T/C and Lyman
ain't among them.  Try these links: <A HREF="http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/bp-
parts.htm">Shooter's Resources</A>  <A HREF="http://www.avsia.com/tvm/">TVM
</A>  <A HREF="http://www.trackofthewolf.com/">Track of the Wolf, Inc.</A>
<A HREF="http://www.jpgunstocks.com/">JP Gunstocks, Inc., Muzzleloading Rifles
- Pistols - Smooth Bores</A>  <A HREF="http://www.logcabinshop.com/">Log Cabin
Shop, Serving the Black Powder Community for Over 57 Years</A>. Also contact
Deer Creek, Caywood, Cabin Creek, Narragansett, Pecatonica and others. Buy a
Muzzleloader Magazine and call some makers. Even if their gun is too
expensive, ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS, most of these people will give you honest
answers and  help you get started the right way.   YHS,   Shootz Himself



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 00:01:46 +0000

I have bought several guns from Cabellas.  Their patterson, available
intermitantly, is fine. It is made by Uberrti.  I also bought a Harper's
Ferry 1803.  I have it from an expert that it is about as good as a
factory version gets, as far as Harper's Ferry goes.  I've sold them
both, to buy something else that ' I 'just had to have'.  The Patterson
was bought for $250,  The cheapest from a dealer was $325.  Same gun,
same maker....   A friend bought the Lyman Great plains, in flint, and
enjoys it.  It has a coil spring in the lock, so is not authentic, but
'who will know'? Caveat Emptor...let the buyer beware..........Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 09:32:52 -0500

I think it was last year Cabella's offered a reproduction of supposedly the
original Hawkins.  I noticed it was alot bigger that the Hawkins youo see in
movies, etc...  I finally got to see it this past Summer at a Cabella's
store in Nebraska.  Very nice quality, but EXPENSIVE!! .... about $1300.00!!

Addison Miller






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 08:24:43 -0600

Washtahay-
At 02:07 AM 11/10/98 EST, you wrote:
>bless you Longwalker. 'bout damn time somebody said it like it is.  there are
>LOTS of accurate (in more ways than one)  quality rifles out there in the
>price range mentioned, especially in the white, but Cabela's, T/C and Lyman
>ain't among them.
    Thanks, but Hawk has been railing against 'em forever.  I'm just tired of
people saying "I got this great deal on this really authentic gun but its
broke".
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 08:22:46 -0600

Washtahay-
At 12:01 AM 11/10/98 +0000, you wrote:
>I have bought several guns from Cabellas.  Their patterson, available
>intermitantly, is fine.
    Please define "fine".  To date, I have seen 9 Colt Pattersons from
Cabelas.  All with broken hands or locking bolts.  Total of less than 1000
shots through the 9.  Is this fine?  Apparently you and I have altogether
different ideas of acceptable quality, and maybe that is where the problem is.

> It is made by Uberrti.
    It is made by Uberti (sometimes) but IT IS MADE TO A PRICE, BY THE LOW
BIDDER.  Those cost saving have to come from somewhere.  Part of the
savings no doubt come from scale of production, but the rest comes from
lowering of quality.  Cabelas figures that the average shooter will shoot
the gun 'X' times-so that is the expected lifetime of the gun.  If it
breaks before then, oh well.  If it lasts longer be amazed.

> I also bought a Harper's
>Ferry 1803.  I have it from an expert that it is about as good as a
>factory version gets, as far as Harper's Ferry goes.
    Who is your expert?  Have you ever set a Harper's Ferry from Cabelas
alongside an original?  Did you know that most of the Cabelas Harpers Ferry
guns require work to make them reliable (Navy Arms were the same way, don't
know about hte new ones)?

>I've sold them
>both, to buy something else that ' I 'just had to have'.  The Patterson
>was bought for $250,  The cheapest from a dealer was $325.  Same gun,
>same maker....
    DIFFERENT QUALITY!  If you don't compare the quality, you aren't talking
the same thing-remember your third grade math teacher talking about
comparing apples and oranges?

> A friend bought the Lyman Great plains, in flint, and
>enjoys it.  It has a coil spring in the lock, so is not authentic, but
>'who will know'?
    ANyone who looks at it can see the appearance is not authentic.  For all
of that, it DOES usually work, and it is safe.
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Howard Peacock <[e-mail]>
Subject:  MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 09:52:20 -0500

[e-mail]
writes:

<< Please clarify this for me.
<< When someone writes or says that something is on the right side of a
<< river is
<< he refering to looking up or downstream?
<< Thanks.
         Dick >>

Well, so far I've seen several responses for upstream and several for
downstream. While the "rules" (Coast Guard, channel markers, etc.)
seem to favor 'upstream', it's apparent that not everyone knows the
rules. Therefore, I would like to propose the obvious. IMHO It depends on
who is talking.  I canoe streams and rivers. If you are talking to a
canoeist, he is invariably referring to 'downstream' (river right, or river
left). On the other hand if the person speaking is a boater from the Sound
or on a large navigable river, he may very well be speaking  of
'upstream'. You can probably make an educated guess by listening
closely for other clues, but I guess the only way to know for sure is to
ask the speaker.

RiverRat



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Mike Haught)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 15:15:44 GMT

Thanks for the many comments and suggestions.  Even the rather blunt
responses gave me a chuckle as well as bringing the point home.

I had been looking off and on at the Blue Ridge rifles (Cabella's)
while also looking at some Jaeger and Kentucky/Pennsylvania kits
offered by other folks ( Golden Age Firearms being one). =20

After hearing you all, I got very convinced to go with the kit.   I'll
just have to work slow and careful and seek a little advice from time
to time.

Now Since I will be reenacting my anscestors who came over from
Germany in the 1750s, I just have to figure out if I want to go with
the Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle or the Jaeger!  I know they used both
of these in hunting and skirmishes.


    -mwh



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 09:29:54 -0600

Howard Peacock wrote:

> .  .  .  IMHO It depends on
> who is talking.

Right.  IMHO what we need is what the fur trappers/traders meant, so we
can know what they were saying when we read the journals.  What the
modern USCG, rafters, etc., use is not relevant to this list.

Iron Burner



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 09:33:09 +0000

Fine= worked great for me, with lots of shooting.  Paul Tidwell, of
Bakersfield, Has researched and built Harpers Ferrys.  He said, like I
said, as far as a factory repro goes-it's a good copy. You get what you
pay for, as I said. Caveat Emptor = let the buyer beware.       Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Westenbarger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 09:52:00 -0700

Exactly!  But just as we can't say ocean boaters and river rafters of
today all know or agree to the "rules", I don't beleive we can say that
all trappers & traders did - whatever those rules may have been.  Such
as:  would Osbourne Russell, who spent some time on an ocean going vessel,
refer to right and left bank in the same way Jim Bridger, who worked a
river ferry for a while, would.   Or for that matter would Manuel Lisa
and William Ashely seperated as they are by  a few years on the timeline
use the same reference?  Or would Manuel Lisa change his method of
reference over time for some reason as I have since I began rafting and
conoeing?  Or what of modern writers transcribing (editing) past journals
and what bias' do they bring to the task?  The mind quails!  :-) I think
we should assume that each individual reference MAY be different  - there
are just too many variables - therefor we should look for other landmarks
or direction references within a text or between texts on the same
subject.  It's always better to have some confirmation anyway rather than
taking any info at face.

Might I also add that it also depends on who is receiving, not just who is
speaking, as to how right and left are interpreted - as is illustrated by
the diversity of opinion on this topic.

kurt

Glenn Darilek wrote:

> Howard Peacock wrote:
>
> > .  .  .  IMHO It depends on
> > who is talking.
>
> Right.  IMHO what we need is what the fur trappers/traders meant, so we
> can know what they were saying when we read the journals.  What the
> modern USCG, rafters, etc., use is not relevant to this list.
>
> Iron Burner






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 11:14:30 -0600

Lord above!! The voice of reason.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>Exactly!  But just as we can't say ocean boaters and river rafters of
>today all know or agree to the "rules", I don't beleive we can say that
>all trappers & traders did - whatever those rules may have been.  Such
>as:  would Osbourne Russell, who spent some time on an ocean going vessel,
>refer to right and left bank in the same way Jim Bridger, who worked a
>river ferry for a while, would.   Or for that matter would Manuel Lisa
>and William Ashely seperated as they are by  a few years on the timeline
>use the same reference?  Or would Manuel Lisa change his method of
>reference over time for some reason as I have since I began rafting and
>conoeing?  Or what of modern writers transcribing (editing) past journals
>and what bias' do they bring to the task?  The mind quails!  :-) I think
>we should assume that each individual reference MAY be different  - there
>are just too many variables - therefor we should look for other landmarks
>or direction references within a text or between texts on the same
>subject.  It's always better to have some confirmation anyway rather than
>taking any info at face.
>
>Might I also add that it also depends on who is receiving, not just who is
>speaking, as to how right and left are interpreted - as is illustrated by
>the diversity of opinion on this topic.
>
>kurt
>
>Glenn Darilek wrote:
>
>> Howard Peacock wrote:
>>
>> > .  .  .  IMHO It depends on
>> > who is talking.
>>
>> Right.  IMHO what we need is what the fur trappers/traders meant, so we
>> can know what they were saying when we read the journals.  What the
>> modern USCG, rafters, etc., use is not relevant to this list.
>>
>> Iron Burner
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 11:17:17 -0600

   >>Haven't priced them via Shotgun News recently, but you
   >>used to be able (6-12 months ago) to get the flint kit for around
   >>$230 as I recall.
   >Whoopee.  If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job and
   >wait til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have
   >gotten a decent gun.
   >LongWalker c. du B.
WELL NOW ARE WE TO BECOME THE ELITIST BASTARDS THAT DO NOT WANT NEW COMMERS
TO JOIN? its time a few wake up and realize that as you said,"pick up a
parttime job at minimum wage..." In my real life I commute 2 hours each
way,for a hell of a lot more than min.wage. Nothing but an original is
truely authenic,but give the new commers a chance. When I started in the 70's
it wasn't just being ridiculisly perfectly accurate that got a pilgrim into
camp;it was the attempt and desire to learn! NOT EVERONE CAN AFFORD A CUSTOM
GUN OR THE BEST PRODUCTION MODEL,but if he's willing to make the attempt to
LOOK PERIOD CORRECT(and not show up with one of those damn inline bp
burners) he's welcome in my camp. My first muzzleloader was a CVA(still have
it,still shoots straight,and I  killed 9 deer with it),then I bought a Brown
bess kit from someone and now am scratch building a Charlieville replica.
 I've hooked a few newcommers by lending that old CVA and teaching them how
to shoot it,that have gone on to bigger and($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)better
smokepoles than I have. Do I care? NO!!!!!!!!!!! So lets not give a
newcommer a hard time because he cannot afford a custom gun(in time he will
find a way to get one any way!)lets welcome him and help educate.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 12:09:02 -0800

SW,

I was going to put that in my post and thought otherwise. You can also remember by
saying "red left leaving" or "green right going "but the point I tried to make is
that this is the tradition of those who navigate and have been doing so for time
immemorial. They are the ones that established that the right side is 'as you look
up stream or into the harbor'. The Corps of Engineers may agree but even they are
bowing to the traditions of the sea through the US Coast Guard, the navies of the
world and Maritime Law and are not the ones dictating this tradition. As the
explorers and initial mapers of our world and this continent, I would think that
the traditions of the Sailor should hold some weight.

I will not go so far to say that this is what some historical figure of the fur
trade or western expansion might have meant when he said that the 'fort or post
was on the right back at' wherever. Then again he may have been saying that the
post was across the river from today's land mark and didn't make that distinction.
The quote after all did not say "on the very spot where", so we are still left to
conjecture.

I hold with your and my view and still recommend that in present context one
should clarify which way they are facing until we all agree which it will be. If I
think about it I will mean, as looking up the river or into the harbor. I
remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 11/8/98 5:36:45 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<I would say that the right side of a river is the right side when looking up
> stream. >>
>
> A good way to remember that is the old saying, "red, right, returning" I agree
> with you Capt. Lathi.






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford...
Date: 10 Nov 1998 15:18:49 -0500

Easy there... :))  I have been doing this (Ronnyvous and Reenactin) for 8
years and BP shooting for about 20+ years... I started with a .50 caliber
Hawken "replica" that at the time cost me about $150 (around 1975).  It was
a TC knock off made in Spain. Still have it... great shooter and has brought
down many deer...  Now, I own 2 custon rifles... a South Carolina Rifle, .45
cal., (along the same lines as the Penna and Ky rifles, but has steel vs
brass fixtures), and a Chiefs Trade Gun, .62 cal.    My point is that it
took me along time to be able to afford a good custom made BP firearm.
Start out with the best you can afford, and make sure it is the best you can
get for that price.

I also converted a Traditions Springfield Hawkens from a capper to a
flinter... works great!!  Traditions said it couldn't be done... WRONG!!!
hehe...  From what I have seen and shot, Traditions makes some pretty decent
firearms.  Sure, every now and then you will get a lemon... but... then you
make lemonade and go from there...

Addison Miller
aka SeanBear








-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 15:39:23 EST

In a message dated 11/10/98 12:11:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  < stream. >>
 >
 > A good way to remember that is the old saying, "red, right, returning" I
agree
 > with you Capt. Lathi. >>

 Hello the list

I don't want to start a big fight, but I asked this question of Merriam -
Webster some time ago and they replied "looking downstream." Subsequent
reading confirmed this.

 One such place is in "Astoria", by Washington Irving.
 "Astoria" p. 257 tells of Hunt taking the right bank, and later, on page 262,
25 lines from the top: For the two following days they continued
westward...along river...until they crossed it just before its junction with
the Snake, which was still running north.

Read Chittenden's "The American Fur Trade of the Far West. Page 191-192,
volume 1
"Hunt, with 22 persons...took the right bank. ...retrograde march resolved
upon...Hunt now left Day and Crooks and hastened on to Weiser River, which he
had passed on the 26th of the previous month. Among the
Indians...upstream...he remained until Dec. 21.

Since  the Weiser comes in from the east, if Hunt looked downstream he would
be on the right bank.

There are many other references. I will look for some more. And I'll bet you
will find it in your own reading now hat your subconscious is working on it.

I do agree that people who use this reference should also use other clues.

I will look for some more, but I have no doubt what is meant by the right or
left side. It is looking downstream at the mouth.

Tom Laidlaw



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 15:45:44 -0600

   >Now Since I will be reenacting my anscestors who came over from
   >Germany in the 1750s, I just have to figure out if I want to go with
   >the Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle or the Jaeger!  I know they used
   >both of these in hunting and skirmishes.
   >-mwh
IIRC,most of the early Pennsylvania Gunsmiths were from the German states.
With that in mind I would recomend a Pennsylvania,unless you just got off
the boat;then a Jaeger!
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 15:58:18 -0600

Washtahay-
some time back I wrote:
>   >Whoopee.  If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job and
>   >wait til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have
>   >gotten a decent gun.
>   >LongWalker c. du B.

And at 11:17 AM 11/10/98 -0600, someone wrote:
>WELL NOW ARE WE TO BECOME THE ELITIST BASTARDS THAT DO NOT WANT NEW COMMERS
>TO JOIN?
    Hmmm...if being an elitist bastard means not wanting to shoot next to
folks with guns with hammers that creep and fire from half- or full-cock
(seen at Cabelas) or guns with gas leaks at the breech (a CVA "Squirrel
Rifle" I bought for my then new bride) or nipples that blow out in to space
when fired (Lyman GPR, summer of '95, a couple T/Cs I have seen over the
years) then yes, I want to be considered an "elitist bastard".  Having been
born a bastard, I had a head start-some might consider it an unfair advantage.
    So come on all, be an elitist bastard with me!  You will be expected to
throw your shop open to folks who bought those less-than-satisfactory guns,
to help repair them, and to teach their new owners the rules of firearms
safety.  Your shop may well become the place new folks turn when they
realize the only way they can afford a good gun (by their standards) is to
build one, buying parts as they can afford them-this may mean your dining
room, like mine, will have 6 rifles in various stages of cunstruction
standing against the bookshelves.  It will mean teaching folks skills from
tracking that deer they hit but didn't put down to tanning the hide to how
to cook over an open fire.  It means being the same thing to the new guys
today as it meant to the folks who got me started were to me.  Frankly, I
figure its a debt I owe.

>its time a few wake up and realize that as you said,"pick up a
>parttime job at minimum wage..." In my real life I commute 2 hours each
>way,for a hell of a lot more than min.wage.
    That's nice.  I have one full time job an hour east of here and another
full time job an hour west of here.  So what?  If it meant the difference
between compromising or getting what I want, I will find a way.  If that
means I spend my day off every week working in a gas station for a couple
months, I do it.   I guess some folks value their TV time more than others.

>Nothing but an original is
>truely authenic,but give the new commers a chance.
    Back when I was getting started, I saw a guy wrap a CVA Kentucky around a
tree.  Turns out he had spent the whole summer trying to get the thing to
work.  I don't want the new guys of today to have to deal with that.  I'm
trying to give the new comers a chance to get started without the added
handicap of a defective rifle.  Sorry that seems unreasonable to you.

> My first muzzleloader was a CVA(still have
>it,still shoots straight,and I  killed 9 deer with it)
    My last CVA is the "Squirrel Rifle" that turned my ex-wife off shooting.
Something about the way smoke came out from under the lockplate...
According to CVA, all I had to do was buy a new barrel-at a cost equal to
the cost of the gun-to fix a manufacturer's defect.  Seems easier to just
avoid the crap in the first place.

> So lets not give a
>newcommer a hard time because he cannot afford a custom gun(in time he will
>find a way to get one any way!)lets welcome him and help educate.
    You seem to have the mistaken notion that my dislike of poor quality guns
extends to their owners.  This is not the case.  But I am not going to lie
and tell someone their gun is authentic in appearance when it isn't, or say
it is safe when its not.  If someone is going to buy a sub-$300 production
rifle, at least let him buy one that won't injure him or someone else.

LongWalker c. du B. and elitist bastard
(I'd like to thank the Academy...I've always aspired to this award...I'll
do my best to live up to my understanding of what this means to me...I
never thought I'd receive this title so early in life...)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 17:57:29 EST

LongWalker c. du B. and elitist bastard writes:
>  (I'd like to thank the Academy...I've always aspired to this award...I'll
>  do my best to live up to my understanding of what this means to me...I
>  never thought I'd receive this title so early in life...)

Hey Jim,

Your withdrawal from those prescription pain killers is starting to show.  You
must almost be back in full form.  <VBG>

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 18:14:51 EST

Hello the list!

Now that we know our right from our left, I need clarification on the
following

 the old saying, "red, right, returning"

returning to where? Upstream, Downstream? What If I start in the middle and go
upstream? Am I going or returning. Another place where the rule of thumb is
meaningless to the uninitiated.

Can any navigator clear this one up for me?

Tom Laidlaw



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 19:31:53 -0400


> the old saying, "red, right, returning"
>
>returning to where? Upstream, Downstream?

Returning from the sea, and that means always going upstream, no matter how
far you are from the sea.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html
non illegitimi carborundum est





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 20:24:13 EST

In a message dated 11/10/98 3:20:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Can any navigator clear this one up for me? >> Thanks Tom, I needed that
laugh.  and to Longwalker re: the rifle posting, again, AMEN.  YHS  Shootz
Himself  (PS, not that this will help, <GGG> but: although
'red,right,returning' is correct for channel markers (headed in or up stream
red is on the right) on ALL water and aircraft, of any size, red is left is
port and never changes. therefore the side of a river, canyon, highway,
mountian range, path or air corridor you are TALKING about changes with your
direction of travel. (i.e. if going north, left is west, if going south left
is east.) but, if you need to communicate that info to somebody else, then a
compass direction is in order i.e. the EAST SIDE OF THE RIVER), something the
NEVER changes, no matter which way you may be headed.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 19:07:30 -0600

Washtahay-
sometime back, I (LongWalker c. du B. and elitist bastard) wrote:
>>  (I'd like to thank the Academy...I've always aspired to this award...I'll
>>  do my best to live up to my understanding of what this means to me...I
>>  never thought I'd receive this title so early in life...)
>
And at 05:57 PM 11/10/98 EST, Old Fox wrote:
>
>Your withdrawal from those prescription pain killers is starting to show.
You
>must almost be back in full form.  <VBG>
    Just think how cantankerous I'll be when I get old-maybe 35, let alone
your advanced years!
LongWalker c. du B., etc



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 19:41:30 -0600

All this discussion about left or right being upstream or downstream just
doesn't matter....whatever I am looking for is ALWAYS on the other bank
anyhow.  Most of the time it is all I can do to remember which way is
straight up.
Lanney Ratcliff
(How am I doing, Eldon?)
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 11/10/98 3:20:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail]
>writes:
>
><< Can any navigator clear this one up for me? >> Thanks Tom, I needed that
>laugh.  and to Longwalker re: the rifle posting, again, AMEN.  YHS  Shootz
>Himself  (PS, not that this will help, <GGG> but: although
>'red,right,returning' is correct for channel markers (headed in or up
stream
>red is on the right) on ALL water and aircraft, of any size, red is left is
>port and never changes. therefore the side of a river, canyon, highway,
>mountian range, path or air corridor you are TALKING about changes with
your
>direction of travel. (i.e. if going north, left is west, if going south
left
>is east.) but, if you need to communicate that info to somebody else, then
a
>compass direction is in order i.e. the EAST SIDE OF THE RIVER), something
the
>NEVER changes, no matter which way you may be headed.
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 21:00:41 -0600

Lanney Rue,
  I've seen you many a time when you couldn't tell which way was up. Yeah
buddy ! ! One thing fer sure, what you're looking fer is always on the
other bank or in the bottom of the haversack or packbasket. It is just
Murphy's Law. Anything that can go wrong will, and usually does.
Bye Ya'll
Pendleton

----------
> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:41 PM
>
> All this discussion about left or right being upstream or downstream just
> doesn't matter....whatever I am looking for is ALWAYS on the other bank
> anyhow.  Most of the time it is all I can do to remember which way is
> straight up.
> Lanney Ratcliff
> (How am I doing, Eldon?)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:24 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
>
>
> >In a message dated 11/10/98 3:20:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail]
> >writes:
> >
> ><< Can any navigator clear this one up for me? >> Thanks Tom, I needed
that
> >laugh.  and to Longwalker re: the rifle posting, again, AMEN.  YHS
Shootz
> >Himself  (PS, not that this will help, <GGG> but: although
> >'red,right,returning' is correct for channel markers (headed in or up
> stream
> >red is on the right) on ALL water and aircraft, of any size, red is left
is
> >port and never changes. therefore the side of a river, canyon, highway,
> >mountian range, path or air corridor you are TALKING about changes with
> your
> >direction of travel. (i.e. if going north, left is west, if going south
> left
> >is east.) but, if you need to communicate that info to somebody else,
then
> a
> >compass direction is in order i.e. the EAST SIDE OF THE RIVER),
something
> the
> >NEVER changes, no matter which way you may be headed.
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jody Carlson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock
Date: 10 Nov 1998 20:33:02 -0600

I have a Blue Ridge rifle and it is excellent, dispite what many have
mentioned here.

At first the frizzen didn't spark very well, but a dab of Dixie Gun Works'
Kasenit took care of that.  Mine is only the .36 cal (flint of course) but
it is a very good shooter.  I can't blame my misses on the gun.

I have to wonder whether most of these blow-hards even knew which rifle you
were mentioning, or automatically assumed it was the cheaper hawkin'!!

Of course, mention anything here they don't take a shine to and look out
for the backblast.

Good luck with your purchase.

JC



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jody Carlson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 20:35:06 -0600

Ditto Jeff, well said!

JC



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Guns
Date: 10 Nov 1998 18:10:40 -0800

I'm curious, has ever told Cabelas that they carry/sell inferior weapons?
 That they are, esentially, unsafe?  If not, why not?

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 19:38:05 -0700

House Of Muskets in Colorado, see ad in most mags, has a replacement parts
kit for internal parts, that are made by Uberrti, better quality than what
your gun has, plus all parts have been heta treated. The kit is less than
$20.00 and corrects trigger pull as well as cylinder alignment, Don at House
says it fits any of the Italian copies.

Buck
____________________________________
-----Original Message-----


>Washtahay-
>At 12:01 AM 11/10/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>I have bought several guns from Cabellas.  Their patterson, available
>>intermitantly, is fine.
> Please define "fine".  To date, I have seen 9 Colt Pattersons from
>Cabelas.  All with broken hands or locking bolts.  Total of less than 1000
>shots through the 9.  Is this fine?  Apparently you and I have altogether
>different ideas of acceptable quality, and maybe that is where the problem
is.
>
>> It is made by Uberrti.
> It is made by Uberti (sometimes) but IT IS MADE TO A PRICE, BY THE LOW
>BIDDER.  Those cost saving have to come from somewhere.  Part of the
>savings no doubt come from scale of production, but the rest comes from
>lowering of quality.  Cabelas figures that the average shooter will shoot
>the gun 'X' times-so that is the expected lifetime of the gun.  If it
>breaks before then, oh well.  If it lasts longer be amazed.
>
>> I also bought a Harper's
>>Ferry 1803.  I have it from an expert that it is about as good as a
>>factory version gets, as far as Harper's Ferry goes.
> Who is your expert?  Have you ever set a Harper's Ferry from Cabelas
>alongside an original?  Did you know that most of the Cabelas Harpers Ferry
>guns require work to make them reliable (Navy Arms were the same way, don't
>know about hte new ones)?
>
>>I've sold them
>>both, to buy something else that ' I 'just had to have'.  The Patterson
>>was bought for $250,  The cheapest from a dealer was $325.  Same gun,
>>same maker....
> DIFFERENT QUALITY!  If you don't compare the quality, you aren't talking
>the same thing-remember your third grade math teacher talking about
>comparing apples and oranges?
>
>> A friend bought the Lyman Great plains, in flint, and
>>enjoys it.  It has a coil spring in the lock, so is not authentic, but
>>'who will know'?
> ANyone who looks at it can see the appearance is not authentic.  For all
>of that, it DOES usually work, and it is safe.
>LongWalker c. du B.
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 21:41:44 -0600

Should have said, whatever we are looking for is always on the other bank
etc. Wouldn't want to upset my fine small buddy friend of mine. hehehehehe
Pendleton
----------
> From: yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 9:00 PM
>
> Lanney Rue,
>   I've seen you many a time when you couldn't tell which way was up. Yeah
> buddy ! ! One thing fer sure, what you're looking fer is always on the
> other bank or in the bottom of the haversack or packbasket. It is just
> Murphy's Law. Anything that can go wrong will, and usually does.
> Bye Ya'll
> Pendleton
>
> ----------
> > From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
> > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:41 PM
> >
> > All this discussion about left or right being upstream or downstream
just
> > doesn't matter....whatever I am looking for is ALWAYS on the other bank
> > anyhow.  Most of the time it is all I can do to remember which way is
> > straight up.
> > Lanney Ratcliff
> > (How am I doing, Eldon?)
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
> >
> >
> > >In a message dated 11/10/98 3:20:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> > [e-mail]
> > >writes:
> > >
> > ><< Can any navigator clear this one up for me? >> Thanks Tom, I needed
> that
> > >laugh.  and to Longwalker re: the rifle posting, again, AMEN.  YHS
> Shootz
> > >Himself  (PS, not that this will help, <GGG> but: although
> > >'red,right,returning' is correct for channel markers (headed in or up
> > stream
> > >red is on the right) on ALL water and aircraft, of any size, red is
left
> is
> > >port and never changes. therefore the side of a river, canyon,
highway,
> > >mountian range, path or air corridor you are TALKING about changes
with
> > your
> > >direction of travel. (i.e. if going north, left is west, if going
south
> > left
> > >is east.) but, if you need to communicate that info to somebody else,
> then
> > a
> > >compass direction is in order i.e. the EAST SIDE OF THE RIVER),
> something
> > the
> > >NEVER changes, no matter which way you may be headed.
> > >
> > >
> >



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock
Date: 10 Nov 1998 22:52:08 -0500

Jody Carlson wrote:
>
> I have a Blue Ridge rifle and it is excellent, dispite what many have
> mentioned here.
>
> At first the frizzen didn't spark very well, but a dab of Dixie Gun Works'
> Kasenit took care of that.  Mine is only the .36 cal (flint of course) but
> it is a very good shooter.  I can't blame my misses on the gun.
>
> I have to wonder whether most of these blow-hards even knew which rifle you
> were mentioning, or automatically assumed it was the cheaper hawkin'!!
>
> Of course, mention anything here they don't take a shine to and look out
> for the backblast.

To have as a reason to buy a Blue Ridge rifle, as it's all one an
afford, is honest and valid.  However, to even infer that it's an
accurate reproduction of an original and a high quality firearm is
inaccurate, not resembling the truth by any stretch of anyone's
imagination.

Fred



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 22:53:38 -0500

Then, you CAN afford a Deer Creek made rifle.

Fred

Mike Haught wrote:
>
> Well, let's say $500 is in my price range right now.
>
>         -mwh
>
> On Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:35:54 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >what is your price range that will deturmine what you will be able to
> >buy---let me know your price range and i will give you a list of makers
> >that make kits or semifinished guns or complete guns---a bunch of good
> >ones out there and a bunch of junk---dont scrimp on the lock and the
> >barrel---that is the heart of the muzzle loader---
> >
> >HAWK
> >MICHAEL PIERCE
> >1-813-771-1815
> >E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
> >
> >On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 22:13:10 -0500 "Fred A. Miller"
> ><[e-mail]> writes:
> >>Mike Haught wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's
> >>> flintlock.  I have considered purchasing this gun for my first
> >>> flinter.
> >>>
> >>> I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be
> >>historically
> >>> accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler of
> >>the
> >>> 1780s through 1810.
> >>>
> >>> I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here whether
> >>this
> >>> gun would be a good first time flinter purchase.
> >>
> >>It's NOT, IMHO.  You'd be MUCH better off with a "Cumberland" from
> >>Deer
> >>Creek's Wilderness Rifle Works line, which, by the way is semi-custom
> >>hand-made, NOT production firearms from Italy like those from Cabelas.
> >>
> >>Cut rifleing, curly maple stocks (NOT euorpean walnut or some odd-ball
> >>wood), a properly designed and made lock, triggers, etc., are quality
> >>accuratly reproduced items from good gun makers.  Quality doesn't cost
> >>that much more.  Contact Bob at Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading for data
> >>and
> >>prices.  E-mail address is: [e-mail].
> >>
> >>Best,
> >>
> >>Fred
> >>
> >>
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________
> >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

--
 - Windows 98 supports real multitasking - it can boot and crash
simultaneously -
Fred A. Miller, Systems Administrator
Cornell Univ. Press Services
[e-mail]
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 23:01:27 -0500

Jim Colburn wrote:
>
> Washtahay-
> At 02:07 AM 11/10/98 EST, you wrote:
> >bless you Longwalker. 'bout damn time somebody said it like it is.  there are
> >LOTS of accurate (in more ways than one)  quality rifles out there in the
> >price range mentioned, especially in the white, but Cabela's, T/C and Lyman
> >ain't among them.
>         Thanks, but Hawk has been railing against 'em forever.  I'm just tired of
> people saying "I got this great deal on this really authentic gun but its
> broke".

Yeah....and I'm tired of fixing the cotton pickin things for people who
didn't take my recommendation and buy something better in the first
place!

Fred



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 23:10:30 -0500

Jeff Powers wrote:

[snip]

> smokepoles than I have. Do I care? NO!!!!!!!!!!! So lets not give a
> newcommer a hard time because he cannot afford a custom gun(in time he will
> find a way to get one any way!)lets welcome him and help educate.

Jeff, NO ONE's giving any newcomer a hard time!  There's a BIG
difference between an admission that someone wants to start out
inexpensively because it's all he or she can afford, and the fool who
promotes a barely functional Italian reproduction as a quality firearm.
One's honest and deserves help, but the other is ignorant and doesn't
want any assistance.

Fred



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "WILLIAM P. GARRISON" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock
Date: 10 Nov 1998 21:26:25 -0700


------ =_NextPart_000_01BE0CF1.10334640
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hahahaha, Your right, the Mountain Men are and were some of the most opinionated people in the world, but not a Black Heart in the Bunch.
   W. P. "Griz" Garrison

----------
Sent:     Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:33 PM

I have a Blue Ridge rifle and it is excellent, dispite what many have
mentioned here.

At first the frizzen didn't spark very well, but a dab of Dixie Gun Works'
Kasenit took care of that.  Mine is only the .36 cal (flint of course) but
it is a very good shooter.  I can't blame my misses on the gun.

I have to wonder whether most of these blow-hards even knew which rifle you
were mentioning, or automatically assumed it was the cheaper hawkin'!!

Of course, mention anything here they don't take a shine to and look out
for the backblast.

Good luck with your purchase.

JC



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flinters
Date: 10 Nov 1998 23:31:54 EST

In a message dated 98-11-08 23:19:23 EST, you write:

<< Does anyone know of a cyber address for NorthStar West? >>

To the best of my knowledge, they're not on line.  Snail address is:

North Star West
P.O. Box 488
Glencoe, CA 95232

Office phone # 1- [phone]
Shop phone # 1- [phone]

Don't think they even have a fax yet.  I'd recomend calling the shop -- the
old guy at the office sometimes gets things confused -- guess his health ain't
the greatest.  I'd also recomend calling before the end of Nov -- Iron Jaw
plays Santa Clause during Dec & production drops off to nearly nothing.

If you have a copy of Oct Muzzle Blast handy, they have over 5 pages of web
addresses that are related to our sport/hobby/madness/addiction.  North Star
isn't listed there either.  Wish they WERE on line -- I need a new frizen for
my trade gun!

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Guns
Date: 10 Nov 1998 21:43:29 -0600

Washtahay-
At 06:10 PM 11/10/98 -0800, John C. Funk wrote:
>I'm curious, has ever told Cabelas that they carry/sell inferior weapons?
> That they are, esentially, unsafe?  If not, why not?
    We (Tony, Dave, and myself)  went to Cabelas in an attempt to find a
working "Blue Ridge" rifle.  The rifles we examined which were
defective-locks wouldn't spark, touch hole bored in a location that was
covered by the frizzen, chipped out notches in the tumbler, etc were
returned to the rack.  The rifles that were "self-firing" were also
returned to the rack.  When we asked, we were told that this was not a
safety concern as "you shouldn't cock the gun until you are ready to fire".
 Tony gave up and got his money back-I think he finally got a rifle from
TVA or some such.  Dave and I both gave up on getting a rifle there.
    It has been my experience, and that of several others, that Cabelas will
exchange revolvers with you until you give up and ask for your money back.
Apparently this applies to rifles as well.  I CAN tell you that the clerk
we were dealing with wouldn't let us take the frizzen from one rifle, put
it on the lock from a second, and install it on a third rifle (in the
desired caliber).

At 07:38 PM 11/10/98 -0700, Barry Conner wrote:
>House Of Muskets in Colorado, see ad in most mags, has a replacement parts
>kit for internal parts, that are made by Uberrti, better quality than what
>your gun has, plus all parts have been heat treated. The kit is less than
>$20.00 and corrects trigger pull as well as cylinder alignment, Don at House
>says it fits any of the Italian copies.
    In other words, I and my friends aren't the only ones who have had
problems with the quality and performance of the revolvers sold by some
dealers.  Apparently, even Uberti recognizes this if they are offering
replacemant parts kits.  (Thanks Barry-that might save me some time helping
folks fix these!)

At 08:33 PM 11/10/98 -0600, Jody Carlson wrote:
>I have a Blue Ridge rifle and it is excellent, dispite what many have
>mentioned here.
>At first the frizzen didn't spark very well, but a dab of Dixie Gun Works'
>Kasenit took care of that.  Mine is only the .36 cal (flint of course) but
>it is a very good shooter.  I can't blame my misses on the gun.
    So this "excellent" rifle required case-hardening of the frizzen in order
to get it to work?   What other products do you buy that require repair
before performing as advertised?  Do you think because you were willing to
do this everyone else should be?

>
>I have to wonder whether most of these blow-hards even knew which rifle you
>were mentioning, or automatically assumed it was the cheaper hawkin'!!
    Way back when, this thread started when someone (Mike Haught?) asked about
the less expensive rifles from Cabellas.  NOT the expensive Hawken copy.
    I have only seen two of the 'expensive' Hawken rifles-one at the store
with non-working triggers, the other at an informal match where the owner
was asking if anyone had a spare rear sight with them (the one on his
"expensive" Hawken fell out).  Too bad, its a nice looking rifle.
    If you want to degenerate to name calling, may I suggest you do it in
person?

>
>Good luck with your purchase.
    That is all anyone has been wishing anyone all along.
LongWalker c. du B., etc



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 21:17:31 -0800


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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tom,

Don't want to start a fight either. I went to my copy of "The Bluejackets' Manual"
which I got when I went into the Navy back in "62". What the "Manual" says about
the right side of the river or channel was still the same in "93" when I got out.
I'm not a "Navigator" just an old Senior Chief Boatswains Mate. It simply states
that Re: "Red, Right, Returning."-- is a widely used phrase that helps in
remembering the significance of the color on channel markers. The red buoys should
be on the right when a ship is returning from the sea." On the previous page it
said that Re: colored buoys--Red: Marks the right-hand side of a channel (as seen
from seaward). Now the US Navy is only the oldest service and almost if not older
than our country so this way of differentiating which is the right side of the
channel is not something new. I wasn't implying that early frontiersmen/explorers
automatically used that way of differentiating the sides of rivers they navigated.
I said that I thought it reasonable that they would carry on the tradition
established by the sailing fraternity.

I have no more idea what this or that explorer or historical author means when he
refers to the right side of the river than you do. If he gives clues then we might
be able to figure it out. But to say that you "have no doubt what is meant by the
right or left side. It is looking downstream at the mouth." flies in the face of
maritime law and the way the whole of the sailing/boating/ship handling  looks at
it and you don't have to be a navigator. If that is what you want it to mean to
you then just let the rest of the world know.

The fact that ships at sea and planes in the air carry a red light to port or the
left side and a green light to starboard or on the right side has nothing to do
with marking channels or which side of the channel is considered the right or the
left side. Why vessels are so marked is not recorded in my literature but the
reason is so you may know by sight whether the vessel/plane is  approaching or
coming from the left or right. (The red and green running lights are not visible
from the rear or dead astern.) I have no idea why Merriam Webster would say the
opposite of what the Maritime community says but I think in this case MW is not
the one you want to rely on when navigating inland waters.

I looked with great curiosity in my copy of "Astoria" by Washington Irving as
edited by Richard Dilworth Rust and could not find the references you directed us
to on the pages indicated. Are we looking at two different books? In any case, if
Hunt were on his westward portion of the journey it would seem reasonable that if
he were going down stream, and cared little or nothing for what I have found
above, he would describe the right side of the river while looking down stream.
Since I can't find this passage in my book on those pages I can't testify to the
validity of your observation. You may be right. I do know that most every one who
travels on rivers for a living will say the right side of a river is "as you look
up stream". So take it for how  it was offered. In the spirit of sharing and
learning, I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/98 12:11:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<  < stream. >>
>  >
>  > A good way to remember that is the old saying, "red, right, returning" I
> agree
>  > with you Capt. Lathi. >>
>
>  Hello the list
>
> I don't want to start a big fight, but I asked this question of Merriam -
> Webster some time ago and they replied "looking downstream." Subsequent
> reading confirmed this.
>
>  One such place is in "Astoria", by Washington Irving.
>  "Astoria" p. 257 tells of Hunt taking the right bank, and later, on page 262,
> 25 lines from the top: For the two following days they continued
> westward...along river...until they crossed it just before its junction with
> the Snake, which was still running north.
>
> Read Chittenden's "The American Fur Trade of the Far West. Page 191-192,
> volume 1
> "Hunt, with 22 persons...took the right bank. ...retrograde march resolved
> upon...Hunt now left Day and Crooks and hastened on to Weiser River, which he
> had passed on the 26th of the previous month. Among the
> Indians...upstream...he remained until Dec. 21.
>
> Since  the Weiser comes in from the east, if Hunt looked downstream he would
> be on the right bank.
>
> There are many other references. I will look for some more. And I'll bet you
> will find it in your own reading now hat your subconscious is working on it.
>
> I do agree that people who use this reference should also use other clues.
>
> I will look for some more, but I have no doubt what is meant by the right or
> left side. It is looking downstream at the mouth.
>
> Tom Laidlaw



--------------B0D1C690DB48A6EA86B2ABD5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Tom,

<P>Don't want to start a fight either. I went to my copy of "The Bluejackets'
Manual" which I got when I went into the Navy back in "62". What the "Manual"
says about the right side of the river or channel was still the same in
"93" when I got out. I'm not a "Navigator" just an old Senior Chief Boatswains
Mate. It simply states that Re: "Red, Right, Returning."-- is a widely
used phrase that helps in remembering the significance of the color on
channel markers. The red buoys should be on the right when a ship is returning
from the sea." On the previous page it said that Re: colored buoys--Red:
Marks the right-hand side of a channel (as seen from seaward). Now the
US Navy is only the oldest service and almost if not older than our country
so this way of differentiating which is the right side of the channel is
not something new. I wasn't implying that early frontiersmen/explorers
automatically used that way of differentiating the sides of rivers they
navigated. I said that I thought it reasonable that they would carry on
the tradition established by the sailing fraternity.

<P>I have no more idea what this or that explorer or historical author
means when he refers to the right side of the river than you do. If he
gives clues then we might be able to figure it out. But to say that you
"have no doubt what is meant by the right or left side. It is looking downstream
at the mouth." flies in the face of maritime law and the way the whole
of the sailing/boating/ship handling  looks at it and you don't have
to be a navigator. If that is what you want it to mean to you then just
let the rest of the world know.

<P>The fact that ships at sea and planes in the air carry a red light to
port or the left side and a green light to starboard or on the right side
has nothing to do with marking channels or which side of the channel is
considered the right or the left side. Why vessels are so marked is not
recorded in my literature but the reason is so you may know by sight whether
the vessel/plane is  approaching or coming from the left or right.
(The red and green running lights are not visible from the rear or dead
astern.) I have no idea why Merriam Webster would say the opposite of what
the Maritime community says but I think in this case MW is not the one
you want to rely on when navigating inland waters.

<P>I looked with great curiosity in my copy of "Astoria" by Washington
Irving as edited by Richard Dilworth Rust and could not find the references
you directed us to on the pages indicated. Are we looking at two different
books? In any case, if Hunt were on his westward portion of the journey
it would seem reasonable that if he were going down stream, and cared little
or nothing for what I have found above, he would describe the right side
of the river while looking down stream. Since I can't find this passage
in my book on those pages I can't testify to the validity of your observation.
You may be right. I do know that most every one who travels on rivers for
a living will say the right side of a river is "as you look up stream".
So take it for how  it was offered. In the spirit of sharing and learning,
I remain.....

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti'
<BR><I></I>
<BR><I></I>

<P>[e-mail] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>In a message dated 11/10/98 12:11:13 PM Pacific Standard
Time,
<BR>[e-mail] writes:

<P><<  < stream. >>
<BR> >
<BR> > A good way to remember that is the old saying, "red, right,
returning" I
<BR>agree
<BR> > with you Capt. Lathi. >>

<P> Hello the list

<P>I don't want to start a big fight, but I asked this question of Merriam
-
<BR>Webster some time ago and they replied "looking downstream." Subsequent
<BR>reading confirmed this.

<P> One such place is in "Astoria", by Washington Irving.
<BR> "Astoria" p. 257 tells of Hunt taking the right bank, and later,
on page 262,
<BR>25 lines from the top: For the two following days they continued
<BR>westward...along river...until they crossed it just before its junction
with
<BR>the Snake, which was still running north.

<P>Read Chittenden's "The American Fur Trade of the Far West. Page 191-192,
<BR>volume 1
<BR>"Hunt, with 22 persons...took the right bank. ...retrograde march resolved
<BR>upon...Hunt now left Day and Crooks and hastened on to Weiser River,
which he
<BR>had passed on the 26th of the previous month. Among the
<BR>Indians...upstream...he remained until Dec. 21.

<P>Since  the Weiser comes in from the east, if Hunt looked downstream
he would
<BR>be on the right bank.

<P>There are many other references. I will look for some more. And I'll
bet you
<BR>will find it in your own reading now hat your subconscious is working
on it.

<P>I do agree that people who use this reference should also use other
clues.

<P>I will look for some more, but I have no doubt what is meant by the
right or
<BR>left side. It is looking downstream at the mouth.

<P>Tom Laidlaw</BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

--------------B0D1C690DB48A6EA86B2ABD5--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 21:20:37 -0800

Jeff,

Horn! I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Jeff Powers wrote:

>    >Now Since I will be reenacting my anscestors who came over from
>    >Germany in the 1750s, I just have to figure out if I want to go with
>    >the Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle or the Jaeger!  I know they used
>    >both of these in hunting and skirmishes.
>    >-mwh
> IIRC,most of the early Pennsylvania Gunsmiths were from the German states.
> With that in mind I would recomend a Pennsylvania,unless you just got off
> the boat;then a Jaeger!
> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>
> If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?
>
> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 21:33:56 -0800

Tom,

Are you trying to be cute? No of course not, you are being very serious here and
your questions deserve answers in the same spirit they were asked.

[e-mail] wrote:

> "Now that we know our right from our left, I need clarification on the
> following the old saying, "red, right, returning" returning to where? Upstream,
> Downstream? What If I start in the middle and go upstream? Am I going or
> returning. Another place where the rule of thumb is meaningless to the
> uninitiated.
> Can any navigator clear this one up for me?"
> Tom Laidlaw

  Has it not been established that for those "who go down to the sea in ships"
returning has always meant returning from the sea, returning up the channel and
returning up the river? It still means that. The "rule of thumb" was a device for
new sailors to remember the actual "rule" so they might know what they were seeing
from their lookout positions as they came into port or passed up or down the
channel. It is very important that the skipper of a vessel know where the safe
channel lies. I hope this clears up your confusion. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 10 Nov 1998 23:45:27 -0600

Greetings, Wise Ones and others,
Along the shooting line I heard a skinner claim that he liked to shoot
fff in his 54 cal.  I, being the novice, asked why.  He claimed that it
shot cleaner and he used less powder.
Is this a good idea?
I know that fff creates more pressure in small cal. rifles.  I would
assume that it would be the same in a large bore.
Historically, what was the grade of the powder used by the early
explorers?  I find it hard to believe that there were 4 grades of powder
back then.
Any ideas?

Thanks for your time and thoughts.

Pilgrim JD



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flinters
Date: 10 Nov 1998 23:34:17 -0600

Washtahay-
At 11:31 PM 11/10/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-11-08 23:19:23 EST, you write:
>isn't listed there either.  Wish they WERE on line -- I need a new frizen for
>my trade gun!
    NaugaMoc-I have a spare.  You want it?
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 10 Nov 1998 21:56:32 -0800

Shootz Himself?,

Is that you in here?

Consider that the mighty Columbia R. starts it's journey to the sea flowing north,
(so going down steam, the right side is the east side). It then turns south, (so
the right side going down stream is the west side). then after it enters the USA
it turns to the west, (so the right side of the river going down stream is the
north side) It travels in a southerly direction for quit a ways and before leaving
the State of Washington it turns east, (so the right side of the river is now the
south side going down stream. Then It turns westerly again and yup, you guessed
it, the right side going down stream is the north side again. Now it didn't do a
complete circle but only not by much. It's confusing isn't it? What might be more
correct would be to concider that as a river empties into the Atlantic or Pacific
or Gulf, at its mouth it will have a north and south side or east and west side
and thus will carry that distinction all the way to it's source just as highways
do. But sailors don't think of rivers that way.

That's why the right side is determined as you look up stream. Don't make no
difference where you start. Mouth, middle, end, beginning, the right bank is
determined as you look up stream. Or as you return from seaward. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/98 3:20:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
> writes:
>
> << Can any navigator clear this one up for me? >> Thanks Tom, I needed that
> laugh.  and to Longwalker re: the rifle posting, again, AMEN.  YHS  Shootz
> Himself  (PS, not that this will help, <GGG> but: although
> 'red,right,returning' is correct for channel markers (headed in or up stream
> red is on the right) on ALL water and aircraft, of any size, red is left is
> port and never changes. therefore the side of a river, canyon, highway,
> mountian range, path or air corridor you are TALKING about changes with your
> direction of travel. (i.e. if going north, left is west, if going south left
> is east.) but, if you need to communicate that info to somebody else, then a
> compass direction is in order i.e. the EAST SIDE OF THE RIVER), something the
> NEVER changes, no matter which way you may be headed.






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 10 Nov 1998 22:14:43 -0800

JD,

I'm sure glad you included "others",  I've been called a smart ass but never
a "wise one"!
I shoot fff in my 54 but right off I'd like to say I have a custom gun with
an expensive american made barrel.  My load is 70gr and I personally
wouldn't go over 90gr with fff.  That's just my opinion for myself and this
particular gun.  That load gives me very good accuracy and does allow me to
shoot quite a number of shots without being hard to load.  At the end of the
day it isn't as dirty as with ff, but the reason I shoot fff is because it
just shoots better for me!
I sure wouldn't use fff in any "inexpensive" gun as defined by all the
emotional textual commentary recently seen on this list.  With any gun/load,
work your way up to an accurate load slowly, starting with approximately the
same number of grains as the caliber i.e.: 50gr for 50 cal etc.
Again, that's just my opinion and in great fear and trembling of the
wrathful disdain of the "wise ones" I humbly submit this reply.  SHEESH!

Medicine Bear

[e-mail] wrote:

> Greetings, Wise Ones and others,
> Along the shooting line I heard a skinner claim that he liked to shoot
> fff in his 54 cal.  I, being the novice, asked why.  He claimed that it
> shot cleaner and he used less powder.
> Is this a good idea?
> I know that fff creates more pressure in small cal. rifles.  I would
> assume that it would be the same in a large bore.
> Historically, what was the grade of the powder used by the early
> explorers?  I find it hard to believe that there were 4 grades of powder
> back then.
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks for your time and thoughts.
>
> Pilgrim JD




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 11 Nov 1998 01:25:30 EST

JD, iirc (if i recall correctly) powder was not originally packaged by
fineness grades, but did change as it was carried around and ground itself
down.  The coarser stuff was used down the barrel; the finer in the pan, as it
ignited faster. i think the age old advice of working up a load (powder
fineness and quantity, patch thickness, ball size combo) for YOUR own
particular rifle is still the best advice. they all shoot different, even two
made by the same manufacturer.                YHS, Shootz Himself



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 01:38:07 EST

thank you Cap. thats the most sensible answer yet, and i gladly stand
corrected.             YHS,  Shootz Himself
In a message dated 11/10/98 9:58:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Consider that the mighty Columbia R. starts it's journey to the sea flowing
north,
 (so going down steam, the right side is the east side). It then turns south,
(so
 the right side going down stream is the west side). then after it enters the
USA
 it turns to the west, (so the right side of the river going down stream is
the
 north side) It travels in a southerly direction for quit a ways and before
leaving
 the State of Washington it turns east, (so the right side of the river is now
the
 south side going down stream. Then It turns westerly again and yup, you
guessed
 it, the right side going down stream is the north side again. Now it didn't
do a
 complete circle but only not by much. It's confusing isn't it? What might be
more
 correct would be to concider that as a river empties into the Atlantic or
Pacific
 or Gulf, at its mouth it will have a north and south side or east and west
side
 and thus will carry that distinction all the way to it's source just as
highways
 do. But sailors don't think of rivers that way.

 That's why the right side is determined as you look up stream. Don't make no
 difference where you start. Mouth, middle, end, beginning, the right bank is
 determined as you look up stream. Or as you return from seaward. I remain....

 YMOS
 Capt. Lahti'
>>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock
Date: 11 Nov 1998 01:38:24 EST

opinionated, harsh, elitist....... he's all of those and more. God bless the
mountain man.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 02:02:37 EST

In a message dated 98-11-10 10:11:47 EST, you write:

<< Now Since I will be reenacting my anscestors who came over from
 Germany in the 1750s, I just have to figure out if I want to go with
 the Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle or the Jaeger!  I know they used both
 of these in hunting and skirmishes.
  >>

The Pennsylvania rifles of the 1750's era were what we now call "transitional"
rifles -- in other words, they were somewhere between the Jaeger & the slim,
graceful Penn's of the "golden age" we're seeing reproduced today.  I'd say
your best bet for historical accuracy is the Jaeger if you want a rifle.
There are many period correct smooth bores available, but, for me, the Jaeger
has a certain mistique.  Period correct "transitionals" are not that easy to
find -- I think there are only 1 or 2 people building them. As intrest grows
for this type rifle, I'm sure more will become evident, but to date, I've only
actualy seen 1 that fits this description. A blunt description of a
"Transitional" rifle is one that looks like a Penn who's stock needs to go on
a diet.  I'd like to have a Jaeger, but can't justify the expense of one when
my time nitche is 80 years later.  I think they're probably the best example
of the European firearms when it comes to marrying art to firearms.  The
Pennsylvania rifles carried on this tradition because of the strong German
influence there that spread through out the east.  A while back we were
discussing "Virginia" rifles & I'd completely forgotten problably the best
known example -- the "Silver Armstrong" --- DUH!!!  Even this rifle shows it's
German heritage that started here with the Jaeger.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Berlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 01:12:57 -0700

Hello the List,

The meaning of right and left when applied to the *BANKS* of a river is
clear and unambigious in all dictionaries. Note that refering correctly
to the *BANK* of a river is a separate matter from what is the right
side of river's mouth or a channel to a sailor returning from the sea.
Careful authors like Morgan use words according to their dictionary
definitions. Setting personal opinions aside, I would like anyone to
cite any dictionary anywhere that defines right BANK and left BANK
differently from the crystal clear statement that follows:

"Note: In designating the banks of a river, right and left are used
always with reference to the position of one who is facing in the
direction of the current's flow."

- Websters Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict

If I can find a 19th century online dictionary it will say the same
thing and I'll bring it to your attention, but it isn't the dictionaries
that argue about this definition, just us.

Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Berlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 01:18:14 -0700

Oh perfect, Steve, make that "unambiguous". <g>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 03:44:15 EST

In a message dated 11/11/98 12:12:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Note: In designating the banks of a river, right and left are used
 always with reference to the position of one who is facing in the
 direction of the current's flow."

 - Websters Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
 http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict >>

Thanks again, Steve --- Tom Laidlaw

Unbelievers can access this link to go directly to another statement

 <A HREF="http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=Right">
Right</A>

<A HREF="http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=Left+bank+of
+a+river">Left Bank

</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 04:04:02 EST

Tom,
If you had read the note from Capt Lathi, you'd know it was returning from
sea. Since most rivers flow to the sea, going up stream would be .......I give
up.....

Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 11 Nov 1998 04:44:11 EST


In a message dated 11/10/98 9:41:56 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Along the shooting line I heard a skinner claim that he liked to shoot
fff in his 54 cal.  I, being the novice, asked why. >>

I, for years, have always used Lyman's "Black Powder Handbook" as a source of
information on loads and powder. If you don't have one, I'd sure recommend you
find one. On page 85, there is a discussion "Performance Evaluation:2Fg/3Fg in
.54 caliber"  I'll quote only a small part.... "Nearly equal velocities are
obtained through the use of a notably lighter charge of 3F powder. Pressure,
while up, is not at all alarming and this loading will minimize fouling....."
It goes on to say use 2F in .58 cal and larger. There is also a section on
"Proofs & Manufacturers Load Suggestions" for the low-life-dogs that use the
cheap, crummy, import guns......<g>

Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 08:38:56 -0800

Hey guys!

I think what we are dealing with here are the lexicon's of more than one
discipline. I thank Steve for showing the dictionary passage as exhibit X. I have
no quarrel with that as a definition. My natural curiosity will require me to, as
suggested, keep my eye peeled for other references, not to "show you up" but to
learn and share. My original intent was to pass on what information I had "with
source" so that the inquirer could judge for himself the validity of the proffered
answer as to his circumstances. I think it wise as many have said, to make it
clear to your fellows which way you are looking. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> Tom,
> If you had read the note from Capt Lathi, you'd know it was returning from
> sea. Since most rivers flow to the sea, going up stream would be .......I give
> up.....
>
> Steve






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flinters
Date: 11 Nov 1998 04:41:14 -0800



Does anyone have the address for muzzle blast handy?   or how do I subscribe?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Johnny Rutledge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: House of Muskets
Date: 11 Nov 1998 06:24:53 -0600

Does any one have an address or phone number for the House of Muskets in
Colorado.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Gun
Date: 11 Nov 1998 06:48:31 EST

I happen to highly suspect that I will be recieving a Cabella gun for
Christmas.  Sure, who wouldn't want a handmade, custom gun to "brag on".
Having raised 2 boys on my own with little extra cash, I just feel damned
lucky to be getting any gun at all.
When I go to my next Rendez.  I will be sure to camp on the other side of the
tracks.
LOL!!!

Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun
Date: 11 Nov 1998 10:55:11 -0600 (CST)

>I happen to highly suspect that I will be recieving a Cabella gun for
>Christmas.  Sure, who wouldn't want a handmade, custom gun to "brag on".
>Having raised 2 boys on my own with little extra cash, I just feel damned
>lucky to be getting any gun at all.
>When I go to my next Rendez.  I will be sure to camp on the other side of the
>tracks.
>LOL!!!
>
>Red Hawk

I think we'll be there together, me with my CVAs.  :-)

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Colleen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flinters
Date: 11 Nov 1998 11:55:59 -0500

>
> Does anyone have the address for muzzle blast handy?   or how do I subscribe?
>

Here's their website:

http://www.nmlra.org/

Colleen
(Many Ducks)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford...
Date: 11 Nov 1998 04:29:27 -0800

In all of these messages, I haven't seen anyone refer to Dixie Gun Works.   Are they not a good company to deal with?





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 04:36:27 -0800

"but if he's willing to make the attempt to LOOK PERIOD CORRECT(and not show up with one of those damn inline bp burners)"


Ok, question.   whats an inline BP burner?   I get that it is a rifle, but what is the inline refering to?

Corey




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 11 Nov 1998 13:09:52 EST

In a message dated 98-11-11 00:41:56 EST, you write:

<< Along the shooting line I heard a skinner claim that he liked to shoot
 fff in his 54 cal.  I, being the novice, asked why.  He claimed that it
 shot cleaner and he used less powder.
 Is this a good idea? >>

You are correct in your statement that 3F creates more pressure because of
it's faster burn rate.  A lot of us use 3F in our .50's & .54's for target
loads.  For example, in my .54 Dixie Poor Boy (it's been re-barreled for those
who don't like Dixie's origional Japanese barrel -- I didn't either!) with 2F,
my best accuracy for target load is 65 gr.  Our club has a lot of people who
are just starting out & are shooting those Lyman GP's, T/C's, CVA's & the
like, so we have a range limit of 60 gr of powder for safety's sake.  To stay
in compliance with that rule, I shoot 55 gr of 3F & get simular accuracy --
plus the side benefit of easier cleaning.  For heavy hunting loads, I still
use 2F for the pressure reasons you stated.  Someone mentioned not exceeding
90 gr of 3F in .54 cal -- I'd agree with that IF you have a good American made
custom barrel with a good breech system.

Did you happen to catch the History Channel's show on the development of black
powder?  That explained a lot about the development of our prefered propelant.
After the discovery of "corning", powder was shipped in cakes & ground to
whatever granulation was desired as I understand it -- I missed the show, so
this is second hand -- maybe someone who saw it can explain better.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 08:04:48 EST

In a message dated 11/11/98 1:05:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Tom,
 If you had read the note from Capt Lathi, you'd know it was returning from
 sea. Since most rivers flow to the sea, going up stream would be .......I
give
 up.....

 Steve >>
Yep, I got that one OK
Thanx, Tom



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford...
Date: 11 Nov 1998 10:23:46 -0800

Corey,

You just saw Tom Crooks refer to them as "Dixie Junk Works". There is a reason for this sentiment and I agree with him.
Now I am sure that Dixie may have some things that are not available from someone else but with this outfit you really
have to be careful just as we have been trying to advise the newer members of our fraternity to be very careful when they
think they are going to get into this sport for very little money. Buyer beware! I personally think the advise 'to save
for the best you can afford and then save some more' is the only way to go. Going inexpensive will often cost you more in
lost function and reliability and surely in satisfaction than you saved. Then too, Dixie is not a cheap place to buy
things "muzzle loading". They are very proud of their "stuff". Did this help? I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Corey Tretteen wrote:

> In all of these messages, I haven't seen anyone refer to Dixie Gun Works.   Are they not a good company to deal with?
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 10:33:32 -0800

Corey,

Picture a modern bolt action rifle with bolt action and all the other lines typical of that style of firearm, probably with a
plastic stock. Now load it from the muzzle as you would a normal ML'r. Now work the bolt as you would to insert a cartridge
into the chamber. Instead of a cartridge, you will put a cap or high power primer on a nipple and close the bolt. The rifle is
now ready to shoot. Kinda leaves you cold don't it! I remain........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Corey Tretteen wrote:

> "but if he's willing to make the attempt to LOOK PERIOD CORRECT(and not show up with one of those damn inline bp burners)"
>
> Ok, question.   whats an inline BP burner?   I get that it is a rifle, but what is the inline refering to?
>
> Corey






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun
Date: 11 Nov 1998 14:08:27 EST

I built my own longrifle, and I'll camp with you guys!
Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford...
Date: 11 Nov 1998 14:19:16 EST

In a message dated 98-11-11 12:44:52 EST, you write:

<< In all of these messages, I haven't seen anyone refer to Dixie Gun Works.
Are they not a good company to deal with?
  >>

They probably have the largest selection available from one source, but the
guns they sell are the ones we've been talking about -- Pedersoli, EuroArms,
Lyman, T/C, CVA, Traditions, & etc.  Even their own guns have -- or had
Japanese barrels -- I haven't seen any of their newer stuff lately.  They're
good people to do business with IF they have something you need -- they'll
treat you right.  They ARE probably the best source for parts for origional
guns -- especialy the early cartridge types.  They have some stuff you won't
fina anywhere else.  Historicaly, they're probably more help for Civ War
enthusiasts than the earlier periods, but they DO have earlier stuff.  They're
a bit high on some of their pricing, but they do send out sales circulars that
have some realy good prices.  They have a good selection of parts for building
& repairs for our muzzleloaders, but again, they're a tad high on their prices
-- not realy out of line, but a bit higher than, say, Track of the Wolf.
Their catalog is well worth what they charge for it -- it has a TON of
information in the back dealing with converting period terms to modern
language -- like Aquafortis = Nitric acid, & exact diameters of the different
shot sizes, both American & British & a bunch of other info it's nice to have
a handy source for.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun
Date: 11 Nov 1998 14:19:28 EST

In a message dated 98-11-11 11:52:41 EST, you write:

<< I happen to highly suspect that I will be recieving a Cabella gun for
 Christmas.  Sure, who wouldn't want a handmade, custom gun to "brag on".
 Having raised 2 boys on my own with little extra cash, I just feel damned
 lucky to be getting any gun at all.
 When I go to my next Rendez.  I will be sure to camp on the other side of the
 tracks.
 LOL!!!
  >>

You & Henry can camp next to me any time.  I also started with a CVA, but have
gone on to better as I could afford.  The thing you gotta keep in mind is your
rifle may not be as strong as a custom built, but then too, it doesn't realy
require 500 gr of powder to poke a hole in a piece of paper or make a
"clanger" go "DING".  Keep your loads within reason & you should have no
problem.  Play with it a bit & I'm sure you'll find a loading between 40 & 80
gr that shoots just fine that's well within the guns capabilities.  You'll
also save money on powder!!!  We have one father of a big family (8 kids & 3
grandkids all at home yet) that constantly scores well with a .54 only
shooting 35 gr of powder.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 14:19:21 EST

In a message dated 98-11-11 12:58:22 EST, you write:

<< Ok, question.   whats an inline BP burner?   I get that it is a rifle, but
what is the inline refering to?
  >>

It's one of the modern B/P rifles that are being built by Ruger, CVA, Knight,
Remington, & others that look like a modern bolt action rifle.  The percussion
cap is directly in line with the bore.  A lot of us don't like 'em 'cuz they
don't "look right".  They're also designed to use bullets/slugs & sabots
instead of our prefered round ball.  They're touted to have better accuracy,
range & stopping power for hunting purposes, but a lot of this is advertising
hype.  They may be more accurate with slugs than our round ball rifles, but
just load one up with a round ball & the shoe's on the other foot.  The
biggest problem with them is when someone shows up at a historical reenactment
carrying one & expects us to welcome them with open arms 'cuz they shoot a B/P
muzzleloader -- "Sorry, Charlie -- it ain't period correct!"  We've kinda
turned a blind eye to the T/C's & traditionaly locked imports, but the in-
lines are so glaringly out of our time period in appearance, they're just not
acceptable.  Not that inline ignition systems are NOT period correct -- I've
seen pictures of a inline flint lock from back in the 1700's, but the modern
inline is so like a modern Remington 700 BDL or Ruger 77 or Winchester 70,
they just don't fit into a historicaly correct picture at all.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun
Date: 11 Nov 1998 14:42:23 EST

Ho the list,
For all you boys considering buying an "entry level" (read T/C, CVA, etc.) I'd
recommend you get a catalog from Track of the Wolf (www.trackofthewolf.com)
They have some outstanding "kits" that you don't have to be a master gunsmith
to put together. And, what's great, is you can buy a piece at a time if ya
don't have the money to buy  all the parts at once. Start with a pre-inlet
stock and barrel and add from there.  Some of the tricky work can be done by
them or you local gunsmith....  The only problem with the Track catalog is
I've found about $10,000 worth of stuff I gotta have....
The first rifle I built was the Bivins 1770 Lancaster and it came out great
even for a guy like me that makes firewood out of most everything! With a .54
cal,  42" Getz  (not available now) barrel, it's a rocket launcher and I've
terrorized most of Western Alaska with it. Even managed to decimate a few
moose and caribou herds!
Steve




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford...
Date: 11 Nov 1998 14:54:08 -0500

My last rifle that I built was from Dixie parts. I had mixed results. The
Douglas barrel was good, no problems. I had ordered a P+ stock and they sent
me an SP, so that was a good deal. I had ordered double set triggers but I
did not know that I had to have a fly in the tumbler for this to work. The
lock I ordered had no fly. So of course when I finished the gun the half
cock notch caught the sear when I pulled the trigger. By this time I had
this sneaking suspicion that I needed a fly. When I called Dixie, they said
that I did not need one, that it was all "in the geometry" of how I built it
but they couldn't explain further than that. I ended up fitting a single
trigger instead. The lock sparked for about 5 shots and then quit. I sent it
back and they claimed to have rehardened the frizzen. It was good for about
another 10 shots. I sent it back again and this time they replaced the
frizzen. Since then it has worked like a charm. Would I by parts from them
again? Well, I know a lot more now than I knew then so maybe, maybe not.
Kirk Mill


    << In all of these messages, I haven't seen anyone refer to Dixie
Gun Works.
    Are they not a good company to deal with?
      >>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 14:57:34 EST


In a message dated 11/11/98 11:25:42 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<they just don't fit into a historically correct picture at all.>>

I agree. Most of the folks I've run into with an in-line seem to be more
interested in being able to hunt in the BP season, than buckskinning or
mountain men. I fear though, with the scopes, and laser sights, our black
powder, muzzle loading hunting season, will soon be grouped into the modern
rifle gang..... bum me out.
Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Guns
Date: 11 Nov 1998 09:35:05 -0600 (CST)

>I'm curious, has ever told Cabelas that they carry/sell inferior weapons?
> That they are, esentially, unsafe?  If not, why not?

I've bought three BP revolvers from Cabelas and I never found them to be
inferior.  One has a slight imperfection in metal-to-metal fit, and I
returned it for a new one, which looks and works fine.  I have been a
satisfied Cabelas customer for some time.  If their guns are inferior, this
is the first I've heard.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flinters
Date: 11 Nov 1998 12:55:15 +0000

National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association
PO Box 67
Friendship, In 47021
E-mail  -  [e-mail]
MuzzleBlasts is the Associations Magazine, it is a part of your
membership benefits

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 11 Nov 1998 09:52:01 -0600 (CST)

>I find it hard to believe that there were 4 grades of powder
>back then.
>Any ideas?
>
>Thanks for your time and thoughts.
>
>Pilgrim JD

The four grades were either developed or perfected by du Pont in the first
decade of the 19th century.  At any rate, the four grades were known by the
time of the War of 1812.  As for what to shoot, conventional wisdom says
that 2f is bewst for calibers of 45 or above, and 3f for 45 or below.
Obviously 45 is the borderline.  I shoot 2f in my .45-70 reloads and mu .45
frontstuffers, incl. my .45 CVA pistol.   My .44 and .36 revolvers get 3f,
but I have used 2f in a pinch.

I have heard of shooters getting good results from using 3f in calibers
larger than 45, so if he says he does, why not believe it.

Experiment, and do what's best for you.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: GUN
Date: 29 Sep 1998 10:20:18 -0500

Save room for my Traditions.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun, Direction, Lights, et al
Date: 11 Nov 1998 20:00:29 EST

The hell with the guns; the best campfire parties are on the other side of the
tracks....... thats where i'll be.      and to steve berlin... you are the
winner with the shortest, most concise answer to the direction thread; one
that was worn out long ago.   YHS,  Shootz Himself



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Carpenter's" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 11 Nov 1998 17:03:25 -0500



[e-mail] wrote:

> I know that fff creates more pressure in small cal. rifles.
>
> Pilgrim JD

I don't have anything smaller than 45 cal., so I always use 2f.  I have read
of a couple, or more, ways the old timers decided how much powder to use,
e.g., place a ball in the palm of your hand and cover it with powder, then
use that much.  Or, some used, half the weight of the round ball.  For a
hunting load, I go with half the weight of the round ball.  In my 54 Great
Plains, I use 110 grains of 2f, as it shoots about a 220 grain round ball.
I use half for punching paper and easily shoot, off the bench,  silver
dollar groups, at 50 yards (primitive sights) , which is close enough for
me.

Carp




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Dixie Gun Works
Date: 11 Nov 1998 20:03:12 EST

IMHO, the best, highest quality thing they offer is their catalog; worth every
penny they get for it.   Shootz Himself



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jody Carlson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock
Date: 11 Nov 1998 19:15:45 -0600

Hey Fred,

Where did I make any of the comments your complaining about???  I simply
said I had a gun that shot good and I was satisfied with for now.

Maybe in the future you should actually read the note before complaining
about it.

I thought we were here to exchange ideas and experiences not hack each
other constantly.

Enough said,

JC



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Direction, Cabela's Guns, and other stuff
Date: 11 Nov 1998 20:27:01 -0600

C'mon guys. This stuff is wearing me out. My dang finger is getting sore
from hitting the delete button so much. Right is left, left is right
Cabela's Guns are ok, no their dog stuff, Dixie's are ok, no their not. Who
cares, all the guy can do is buy the best he can afford and go from there.
If he screws up so be it. It ain't like we all have never messed up. Your
wallet is your best teacher, but just because one make of gun doesn't suit
you that doesn't mean it won't suit me.
Wore out,
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: House of Muskets
Date: 11 Nov 1998 20:36:16 EST

Johnny (and the rest of the list), This link is to a page called shooters
resources, and has address info for almost all of the BP gun makers and
supplies outfits you can think of, including House of Muskets.   Hope this
helps.     YHS, Shootz Himself
<A HREF="http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/bp-parts.htm">Shooter's Resources</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: House of Muskets
Date: 11 Nov 1998 20:59:01 EST

Shootz Himself writes:
> Johnny (and the rest of the list), This link is to a page called shooters
>  resources, and has address info for almost all of the BP gun makers and
>  supplies outfits you can think of, including House of Muskets.

Thanks for the plug.  I'm glad somebody looks at it after all the work I put
into gathering up all those sources.  I have about 30 more to add if I ever
get around to it.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: linda lawyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Direction, Cabela's Guns, and other stuff
Date: 11 Nov 1998 18:15:21 -0800 (PST)



   "AMEN"


---yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> C'mon guys. This stuff is wearing me out. My dang finger is getting
sore
> from hitting the delete button so much. Right is left, left is right
> Cabela's Guns are ok, no their dog stuff, Dixie's are ok, no their
not. Who
> cares, all the guy can do is buy the best he can afford and go from
there.
> If he screws up so be it. It ain't like we all have never messed up.
Your
> wallet is your best teacher, but just because one make of gun
doesn't suit
> you that doesn't mean it won't suit me.
> Wore out,
> Pendleton
>
>

==

Hope to hear from you soon.
Keith and Linda Lawyer

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 18:18:57 -0800



[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 11/11/98 11:25:42 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<they just don't fit into a historically correct picture at all.>>
> snip
> . I fear though, with the scopes, and laser sights, our black
> powder, muzzle loading hunting season, will soon be grouped into the modern
> rifle gang..... bum me out.
> Steve

snip

Don't worry that the muzzleloader season will continue to degrade into an arms
and tecnology race for the best way to cheat.  Colorado will be banning inlines
during ML big game seasons, or already has, if my memory serves me right.  Here
in Nevada only open sights are allowed, and that really takes away the benefit
of  an inline anyway.

Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant.
Sega





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Munroe Crutchley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun
Date: 11 Nov 1998 20:41:08 -0800

I agree. I've only built a couple of rifles, and they weren't from kits. I
had a good teacher for the important stuff, but some little things always
go wrong --think of those things as "trademarks" of your personal work. It
is hard to screw up a rifle beyond rescue if you take your time and ask
questions before you stumble into unknown territory. This mailing list
should be great for that. You may end up with a few more "trademarks" than
the next guy, but you will be shooting something of your own creation which
is, like the Mastercard commercial says, "priceless"!

Munroe Crutchley
Grants Pass, OR
[e-mail]


> For all you boys considering buying an "entry level" (read T/C, CVA,
etc.) I'd
> recommend you get a catalog from Track of the Wolf
(www.trackofthewolf.com)
> They have some outstanding "kits" that you don't have to be a master
gunsmith
> to put together.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 11 Nov 1998 23:27:38 -0800

I think I just felt a blast of cold air...   the presence of evilness, maybe?

>>> Roger Lahti <[e-mail]> 11/11 10:33 AM >>>
Corey,

Picture a modern bolt action rifle with bolt action and all the other lines typical of that style of firearm, probably with a
plastic stock. Now load it from the muzzle as you would a normal ML'r. Now work the bolt as you would to insert a cartridge
into the chamber. Instead of a cartridge, you will put a cap or high power primer on a nipple and close the bolt. The rifle is
now ready to shoot. Kinda leaves you cold don't it! I remain........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Corey Tretteen wrote:

> "but if he's willing to make the attempt to LOOK PERIOD CORRECT(and not show up with one of those damn inline bp burners)"
>
> Ok, question.   whats an inline BP burner?   I get that it is a rifle, but what is the inline refering to?
>
> Corey




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               !




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun
Date: 12 Nov 1998 02:33:47 -0600

   >>I happen to highly suspect that I will be recieving a Cabella gun
   >>for Christmas.  Sure, who wouldn't want a handmade, custom gun to
   >>"brag on". Having raised 2 boys on my own with little extra cash,
   >>I just feel damned lucky to be getting any gun at all.
   >>When I go to my next Rendez.  I will be sure to camp on the other
   >>side of the tracks.
   >>LOL!!!
   >>Red Hawk
   >I think we'll be there together, me with my CVAs.  :-)
   >Cheers,
   >HBC
Hey Guys(and Gal),just out of principle,I'll join ya over there!
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun
Date: 12 Nov 1998 03:05:55 -0800


Anybody know when track of the wolf's website is going to be up?

Corey


> For all you boys considering buying an "entry level" (read T/C, CVA,
etc.) I'd
> recommend you get a catalog from Track of the Wolf
(www.trackofthewolf.com)
> They have some outstanding "kits" that you don't have to be a master
gunsmith
> to put together.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               !




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flinters
Date: 12 Nov 1998 06:31:01 EST

Muzzle Blasts is the membership magazine forthe National Muzzle Loading Rifle
Association.  The membership fee is $35.  Their address is:  NMLRA;  PO Box 67
Friendship, Indiana,  47021 (812-667- 5131) (web page: http://www.nmlra.org).

Respectfully,

Red Hawk






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: in-lines
Date: 12 Nov 1998 08:44:10 -0500

Here in PA,  it is flintlock, patched roundball, open sights only. I see
very few in-lines at the range. This supports the theory that folks only buy
them to extend their hunting season. A lot of writers in the sporting
magazines denigrate PA for their restrictions, but we kinda like it this
way, and you don't see many non-residents during ML season.
Kirk Mill


    Don't worry that the muzzleloader season will continue to degrade
into an arms
    and tecnology race for the best way to cheat.  Colorado will be
banning inlines
    during ML big game seasons, or already has, if my memory serves me
right.  Here
    in Nevada only open sights are allowed, and that really takes away
the benefit
    of  an inline anyway.

    Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant.
    Sega





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 08:37:32 -0800

Dear Friend,

Yes Correy, there is a knight stalker out there that will take unbeliever=
s in the knight. They will find themselves caught between two worlds ever=
 to ride the line between real and unreal. Some make it back. We try to s=
ave as many as we can. But there are few of us and the minions of the kni=
ght stalker are many. Some never come to the true path, forever doomed an=
d cursed to walk where they know not who they are. They think they belong=
 but they don't. They are not truly of our world and they are not truly o=
f the Other World. We would welcome them in but as long as they carry the=
 cursed impurity they can not truly walk the Path. Guard your selves My S=
ons and Daughters. Do not be tempted by the Evil Dressed in Modern Sophis=
tication. Keep close to your bosom the guards against evil we live by: Po=
wder, Patch, and Ball. With my Friend True Rifle WE Shall Conquer ALL. I =
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Corey Tretteen wrote:

> I think I just felt a blast of cold air...   the presence of evilness, =
maybe?
>
> >>> Roger Lahti <[e-mail]> 11/11 10:33 AM >>>
> Corey,
>
> Picture a modern bolt action rifle with bolt action and all the other l=
ines typical of that style of firearm, probably with a
> plastic stock. Now load it from the muzzle as you would a normal ML'r. =
Now work the bolt as you would to insert a cartridge
> into the chamber. Instead of a cartridge, you will put a cap or high po=
wer primer on a nipple and close the bolt. The rifle is
> now ready to shoot. Kinda leaves you cold don't it! I remain........
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> Corey Tretteen wrote:
>
> > "but if he's willing to make the attempt to LOOK PERIOD CORRECT(and n=
ot show up with one of those damn inline bp burners)"
> >
> > Ok, question.   whats an inline BP burner?   I get that it is a rifle=
, but what is the inline refering to?
> >
> > Corey
>
>                                                                        =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                            !






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Direction, Cabela's Guns, and other stuff
Date: 12 Nov 1998 10:45:28 -0600 (CST)

In other words, do what's best for you, and don't crap on someone else's
choices.  Hear, hear!!  Let's move on.

HBC

>C'mon guys. This stuff is wearing me out. My dang finger is getting sore
>from hitting the delete button so much. Right is left, left is right
>Cabela's Guns are ok, no they're dog stuff, Dixie's are ok, no they're not. Who
>cares, all the guy can do is buy the best he can afford and go from there.
>If he screws up so be it. It ain't like we all have never messed up. Your
>wallet is your best teacher, but just because one make of gun doesn't suit
>you that doesn't mean it won't suit me.
>Wore out,
>Pendleton


*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun
Date: 12 Nov 1998 11:57:11 EST


In a message dated 11/12/98 3:08:05 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Anybody know when track of the wolf's website is going to be up?>>

Sorry, should have checked to see if it worked.... Here's the address and
phone and email....   Track of the Wolf,  PO Box 6  Osseo, Minnesota
55369-0006
                612-424-2500   email: [e-mail]
I don't work for those guys, just like the catalog and the stuff in it.....

Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Browning Mtn Rifle
Date: 13 Nov 1998 00:06:05 -0600




I went thru a bitter divorce and my ex sold all of my guns. I am looking
for a Jothan Browning Mtn Rifle in a 54 cal and a Penn Longrifle in a 45
cal. both in percussion. Can anyone help. Thank you all, Don Neighbors







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 11:46:38 -0600

Capt
You been sniffing too much hot flux lately?
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


Dear Friend,

Yes Correy, there is a knight stalker out there that will take unbelievers
in the knight. They will find themselves caught between two worlds ever to
ride the line between real and unreal. Some make it back. We try to save as
many as we can. But there are few of us and the minions of the knight
stalker are many. Some never come to the true path, forever doomed and
cursed to walk where they know not who they are. They think they belong but
they don't. They are not truly of our world and they are not truly of the
Other World. We would welcome them in but as long as they carry the cursed
impurity they can not truly walk the Path. Guard your selves My Sons and
Daughters. Do not be tempted by the Evil Dressed in Modern Sophistication.
Keep close to your bosom the guards against evil we live by: Powder, Patch,
and Ball. With my Friend True Rifle WE Shall Conquer ALL. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Corey Tretteen wrote:

> I think I just felt a blast of cold air...   the presence of evilness,
maybe?
>
> >>> Roger Lahti <[e-mail]> 11/11 10:33 AM >>>
> Corey,
>
> Picture a modern bolt action rifle with bolt action and all the other
lines typical of that style of firearm, probably with a
> plastic stock. Now load it from the muzzle as you would a normal ML'r. Now
work the bolt as you would to insert a cartridge
> into the chamber. Instead of a cartridge, you will put a cap or high power
primer on a nipple and close the bolt. The rifle is
> now ready to shoot. Kinda leaves you cold don't it! I remain........
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> Corey Tretteen wrote:
>
> > "but if he's willing to make the attempt to LOOK PERIOD CORRECT(and not
show up with one of those damn inline bp burners)"
> >
> > Ok, question.   whats an inline BP burner?   I get that it is a rifle,
but what is the inline refering to?
> >
> > Corey
>
>
!








-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 10:07:12 -0800

Well said,  Captain.   Well said.   Maybe we should call you the gaurdian instead?  : )

>>> Roger Lahti <[e-mail]> - 11/12/98 8:37 AM >>>
Dear Friend,

Yes Correy, there is a knight stalker out there that will take unbelievers in the knight. They will find themselves caught between two worlds ever to ride the line between real and unreal. Some make it back. We try to save as many as we can. But there are few of us and the minions of the knight stalker are many. Some never come to the true path, forever doomed and cursed to walk where they know not who they are. They think they belong but they don't. They are not truly of our world and they are not truly of the Other World. We would welcome them in but as long as they carry the cursed impurity they can not truly walk the Path. Guard your selves My Sons and Daughters. Do not be tempted by the Evil Dressed in Modern Sophistication. Keep close to your bosom the guards against evil we live by: Powder, Patch, and Ball. With my Friend True Rifle WE Shall Conquer ALL. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Corey Tretteen wrote:

> I think I just felt a blast of cold air...   the presence of evilness, maybe?
>
> >>> Roger Lahti <[e-mail]> 11/11 10:33 AM >>>
> Corey,
>
> Picture a modern bolt action rifle with bolt action and all the other lines typical of that style of firearm, probably with a
> plastic stock. Now load it from the muzzle as you would a normal ML'r. Now work the bolt as you would to insert a cartridge
> into the chamber. Instead of a cartridge, you will put a cap or high power primer on a nipple and close the bolt. The rifle is
> now ready to shoot. Kinda leaves you cold don't it! I remain........
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> Corey Tretteen wrote:
>
> > "but if he's willing to make the attempt to LOOK PERIOD CORRECT(and not show up with one of those damn inline bp burners)"
> >
> > Ok, question.   whats an inline BP burner?   I get that it is a rifle, but what is the inline refering to?
> >
> > Corey
>
>                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              !
  !




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               !




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 13:46:00 -0600

Contrary to one posting I've found this an interesting thread.

For those looking for an early nineteenth century online dictionary,  which
they claim Noah wrote.
<<http://www.christiantech.com/>http://www.christiantech.com>

The following is from Webster's 1828 Dictionary which supports of the
downstream
dominant position.  Does that sound kinky?

LEFT:
<<http://www.christiantech.com/cgi-bin/webster.exe?search_for_cgi-bin/texts
/web1828=left>http://www.christiantech.com/cgi-bin/webster.exe?search_for_c
gi-bin/texts/web1828=left>

"2. The left bank of a river, is that which is on the left hand of a person
whose face is towards the mouth of the river."

RIGHT:
<<http://www.christiantech.com/cgi-bin/webster.exe?search_for_cgi-bin/texts
/web1828=right>http://www.christiantech.com/cgi-bin/webster.exe?search_for_
cgi-bin/texts/web1828=right>

"13. Being on the right hand of a person whose face is towards the mouth of a
river; as the right bank of the Hudson."

Also supporting this position is the Seine River of France.  The famous Left
Bank is on the South and the less famous Right Bank on the North as the river
flows West through Paris and then turns north to empty into the English
Channel.  Consistent with the dictionaries.  I suspect because landlubbers
consider rivers primary waterways which flow from a source to the mouth.

Now I have a question for the old salts.  If the sea is the dominant factor in
determining which is the "right" side of a navigable waterway marked under
maritime rules, which side is the "right side" of the Panama Canal?  What
about
channels between seas, like the English Channel?

John...


At 01:12 AM 11/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello the List,
>
>The meaning of right and left when applied to the *BANKS* of a river is
>clear and unambigious in all dictionaries. Note that refering correctly
>to the *BANK* of a river is a separate matter from what is the right
>side of river's mouth or a channel to a sailor returning from the sea.
>Careful authors like Morgan use words according to their dictionary
>definitions. Setting personal opinions aside, I would like anyone to
>cite any dictionary anywhere that defines right BANK and left BANK
>differently from the crystal clear statement that follows:
>
>"Note: In designating the banks of a river, right and left are used
>always with reference to the position of one who is facing in the
>direction of the current's flow."
>
>- Websters Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
><http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict>http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict
>
>If I can find a 19th century online dictionary it will say the same
>thing and I'll bring it to your attention, but it isn't the dictionaries
>that argue about this definition, just us.
>
>Steve
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 15:24:42 EST

In a message dated 11/12/98 11:48:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Now I have a question for the old salts.  If the sea is the dominant factor
in
 determining which is the "right" side of a navigable waterway marked under
 maritime rules, which side is the "right side" of the Panama Canal?  What
 about
 channels between seas, like the English Channel?
  >>
And what about the Chunnel?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 12:35:25 -0800

Lanney,

You may be right. You know, I have been wondering about that myself lately.
Every since I built that Texas coffee pot I have been seeing things that weren't
there before and I find myself saying things that prove to be of questionable
veracity and are often seemingly proven to be wrong half the time. Infact my
nose is burning. MOre I think about it the more I think your 'right' and you can
'bank' on it or is that 'left' out. Brother Kramer poses an interesting question
concerning the Panama Canal and such water ways. When I get through flushing out
the flux and can think strength again I shall look into it. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Lanney Ratcliff wrote:

> Capt
> You been sniffing too much hot flux lately?
> Lanney
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Thursday, November 12, 1998 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
>
> Dear Friend,
>
> Yes Correy, there is a knight stalker out there that will take unbelievers
> in the knight. They will find themselves caught between two worlds ever to
> ride the line between real and unreal. Some make it back. We try to save as
> many as we can. But there are few of us and the minions of the knight
> stalker are many. Some never come to the true path, forever doomed and
> cursed to walk where they know not who they are. They think they belong but
> they don't. They are not truly of our world and they are not truly of the
> Other World. We would welcome them in but as long as they carry the cursed
> impurity they can not truly walk the Path. Guard your selves My Sons and
> Daughters. Do not be tempted by the Evil Dressed in Modern Sophistication.
> Keep close to your bosom the guards against evil we live by: Powder, Patch,
> and Ball. With my Friend True Rifle WE Shall Conquer ALL. I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> Corey Tretteen wrote:
>
> > I think I just felt a blast of cold air...   the presence of evilness,
> maybe?
> >
> > >>> Roger Lahti <[e-mail]> 11/11 10:33 AM >>>
> > Corey,
> >
> > Picture a modern bolt action rifle with bolt action and all the other
> lines typical of that style of firearm, probably with a
> > plastic stock. Now load it from the muzzle as you would a normal ML'r. Now
> work the bolt as you would to insert a cartridge
> > into the chamber. Instead of a cartridge, you will put a cap or high power
> primer on a nipple and close the bolt. The rifle is
> > now ready to shoot. Kinda leaves you cold don't it! I remain........
> >
> > YMOS
> > Capt. Lahti'
> >
> > Corey Tretteen wrote:
> >
> > > "but if he's willing to make the attempt to LOOK PERIOD CORRECT(and not
> show up with one of those damn inline bp burners)"
> > >
> > > Ok, question.   whats an inline BP burner?   I get that it is a rifle,
> but what is the inline refering to?
> > >
> > > Corey
> >
> >
> !






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 13:44:03 -0800

I betcher the Panama Canal "changes banks" halfway between the oceans. Isn't
there a lake in the middle of the passage anyway? If we "go with the flow" I
imagine there is a certain net flow from this lake through the locks between
it and each ocean, such that the "downstream" rule would also require us to
change banks on either side of the canal's high point.
Yoicks!
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 12:25 PM


In a message dated 11/12/98 11:48:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Now I have a question for the old salts.  If the sea is the dominant
factor
in
 determining which is the "right" side of a navigable waterway marked under
 maritime rules, which side is the "right side" of the Panama Canal?  What
 about
 channels between seas, like the English Channel?
  >>
And what about the Chunnel?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 17:40:59 EST


In a message dated 11/12/98 11:48:12 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<which side is the "right side" of the Panama Canal?>>

Damn John.....just when I figured we head all this settled!  How about the
"Intercoastal Waterway" which runs from Florida to who knows where.... well, a
different set of rules here, and I'll let the Captain Lahti brief that one....
As for me, if I'm lookin for someone camping on the left or right side of the
river, I be sure to ask which way he's headed, upstream or down......
Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Westenbarger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 17:18:49 -0700

I tried sending this once, I guess it didn't get through so if this is
double for you folks I apologize.  KW


Isn't it amazing (and wonderful) how such a simple question can raise so
much contoversy!  I was laying up
thinking about this last night (yes I need to get a life, or mayhap
better dreams) and wondered about Lewis &
Clark.  After all they wrote bunches about where they went.  Often they
refer to left & right as "larboard &
starboard" which refer to left & right sides of a water craft. (as I
understand it - been on the ocean twice and
never heard either term - so if I'm wrong please correct)  But they use
it in reference to the river banks such as a
river might enter upon the larboard side.  My question is:  do their
references to left and right change when they
change direction in relation to river flow.  Is larboard (their left)
when facing up the Missouri still their left when
going down the Columbia in 1805?  Is an object spotted on the larboard
side on the way up the Missouri still on
the larboard side while headed down?  And is the same true when they
refer to right and left instead of starboard
& larboard?

Just thought I'd throw this out and see if anyone wants the research
challenge and will report back.  Personally I
find the topic interesting but there's not enough spark to catch fire -
yet anyway.

Another brain fart:  I thought that when a ship entered harbor in the
early days (whenever that was) there was a
"pilot" or some such person who came out to the vessel to guide it in.
This implies (to me) an absence of
channel bouys.  If this is so (and I plainly admit I'm way over my head
when out on the ocean) when did
channel bouys come into common use in harbors, river mouths, and in
navigable rivers such as the
Mississippi?  I ask because the date may provde some insight into the
direction issue.

Snowin' here in West Yellowstone!  :-)
kurt





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: in-lines
Date: 12 Nov 1998 17:27:28 -0700

In Colorado we pressured Fish & Game a few years ago with our muzzle loading
assn. to change the rules to get rid of in-lines. This passed and everything
was cool, then came the big buck manufactures that make the in-lines and
started making donations to the boys in Colorado government this past year,
so we're not sure if the tables will turn again or not. This will happen
more than we like to think when these companies start looking at the special
seasons and revenue lost from that state's hunters not being able to use
their products.

Have you seen some of the articles in hunting magazines with editors
claiming 150-200 killing shots with these weapons and there pills measured
in 30-50 grain loads. Just what we need some damn fool wounding more animals
and fuel for the fire from the animal lovers.

Buck
-----Original Message-----


>Here in PA,  it is flintlock, patched roundball, open sights only. I see
>very few in-lines at the range. This supports the theory that folks only
buy
>them to extend their hunting season. A lot of writers in the sporting
>magazines denigrate PA for their restrictions, but we kinda like it this
>way, and you don't see many non-residents during ML season.
>Kirk Mill
>
>
> Don't worry that the muzzleloader season will continue to degrade
>into an arms
> and tecnology race for the best way to cheat.  Colorado will be
>banning inlines
> during ML big game seasons, or already has, if my memory serves me
>right.  Here
> in Nevada only open sights are allowed, and that really takes away
>the benefit
> of  an inline anyway.
>
> Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant.
> Sega
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 19:34:47 EST

In a message dated 11/12/98 4:22:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< never heard either term - so if I'm wrong please correct)  But they use
 it in reference to the river banks such as a
 river might enter upon the larboard side.  My question is:  do their
 references to left and right change when they
 change direction in relation to river flow.  Is larboard (their left)
 when facing up the Missouri still their left when

Hi, Kurt

I this case their reference point is their own boat not the river itself so we
have to know from somewhere else which direction they are traveling. Larboard
for left was discarded in favor of Port because it was too close in sound to
starboard.
Now what about the word POSH?

Tom



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Off-list replies to "Re: Cabelas Flintlock"
Date: 12 Nov 1998 18:35:18 -0600

Washtahay-
    I must say, I have enjoyed the many off-list replies to my comments in
Re:Cabelas Flintlock".  To save myself time, I am replying to the list.
    Generally speaking, the replies to me have fallen into three categories:
1. Death threats; 2. Comments on my perceived masculinity (or lack
thereof); and 3. Personal attacks.  Responses follow.
    Death threats.  I request you guys get together and do this in groups of
three, I could use the entertainment.  Please do do this while I am
alone-my friends will insist I share.  And no, the day will never come when
you see me  unarmed.
    Comments on my perceived masculinity (or lack thereof).  Ask your mothers,
sisters, wives, and daughters-they all say I do it better than you.
    Personal attacks:  Grow up.  One of the more literate examples is at the
bottom of this post, along with my response.
    I can't believe the emotional investment people seem to have in their
decision to purchase a particular firearm!  Simply because someone
disagrees with you is no reason to threaten to "cach you at a dondy and cut
you r face off".  If you are happy with the weapon you have chosen, great-I
am happy for you.  But when you say "its a great gun, I only had to fix
this, that, and the other thing" you are acknowledging that the weapon you
chose is not adequate for the purpose for which you purchased it.  You did
buy that rifle to SHOOT didn't you?
    I am at a loss as to how to respond when someone insists that their rifle
is "authentic" when even the manufacturer acknowledges that it is not an
accurate reproduction and was never intended to be one.  I have to believe
this person is joking.  Surely no one would demonstrate their ignorance in
such a manner, would they?
    Have a nice evening.  I get to figure out how to set a filter in this
e-mail program...
LongWalker c. du B., etc

One of the more literate replies received off list, and my response:
>>Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:09:49 -0600
>>From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
>>
>>What do you consider full time? My day is 16 hours long counting the
>>commute. And I do not have time for TV. I believe you admitted to buying a
>>"cheap" gun for your ex, what happened she get tired of your obsession?
>>So with working 2 "full time jobs" and working at a gas station on the week
>>ends,when do you have time to go to rendezvous or on a trek
>    Generally speaking, full time is considered to be 40+ hours per week.  I
bought the CVA Squirrel Rifle for my wife when she stated she would like to
have one to shoot-not because it was "cheap".  The reason for the divorce
has nothing to do with what you suggest, but frankly it is none of your
business.  I never said I am currently "working at a gas station on the
week ends"-I suggested that as a possible way (one I have used in the past)
to gain the money to acquire a more-desirable item.  When do I have time to
go to rendezvous or on a trek?  You'll never know, we are selective about
who we invite.
    Having more entertaining ways to spend my time than responding to the
demands of individuals with a mental age <5 years, no further messages on
this subject will be acknowledged.
    Have a nice day.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 20:01:32 EST

POSH? thank goodness we've moved on to the Port Out, Starboard Home theory.
(he said as he ordered a new delete-key button cover).



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: in-lines
Date: 12 Nov 1998 17:58:21 -0700

Sorry guys I messed up, "on 150-200 yard killing shots with these weapons
..........".

As far as PA, had a relation that was involved in helping to setup their
rules for type of guns to be used, igntion, propellant, projectile, etc. We
had talked about it on a visit to PA, at the time I was President of the
Colorado State Muzzle Loading Assn.

Got home went to the Colorado State Shoot in Leadville, at the Sat night
campfire I made mention of PA having "Flintlock" only in the conversation.
Someone overheard this, thought the State Assn was going to try and take
away precussion guns and one of the 100% membership clubs quit the State
Assn. right then!!!!

Since that time and 14-15 years of decated service to the State Assn. I have
been quite about types of: igntion, patched round ball, etc., (had to do
some serious ass kissing to get that club back over the years).  Then here
comes this in-line thing and these fools writing how good they are and
everyone and their dog are interested, as Kirk and others have mentioned,
another season and in a good weather one at that, so much for a primitive
weapons season if we are not on our toes.

Its hard to change the rules back once these groups get in, so be careful
and protect your season with writing your state senators, congressman and
lobby your Moose & Goose Departments.

Buck
______________________________
-----Original Message-----


>In Colorado we pressured Fish & Game a few years ago with our muzzle
loading
>assn. to change the rules to get rid of in-lines. This passed and
everything
>was cool, then came the big buck manufactures that make the in-lines and
>started making donations to the boys in Colorado government this past year,
>so we're not sure if the tables will turn again or not. This will happen
>more than we like to think when these companies start looking at the
special
>seasons and revenue lost from that state's hunters not being able to use
>their products.
>
>Have you seen some of the articles in hunting magazines with editors
>claiming 150-200 killing shots with these weapons and there pills measured
>in 30-50 grain loads. Just what we need some damn fool wounding more
animals
>and fuel for the fire from the animal lovers.
>
>Buck
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mill, Kirk <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Thursday, November 12, 1998 6:38 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: RE: in-lines
>
>
>>Here in PA,  it is flintlock, patched roundball, open sights only. I see
>>very few in-lines at the range. This supports the theory that folks only
>buy
>>them to extend their hunting season. A lot of writers in the sporting
>>magazines denigrate PA for their restrictions, but we kinda like it this
>>way, and you don't see many non-residents during ML season.
>>Kirk Mill
>>
>>
>> Don't worry that the muzzleloader season will continue to degrade
>>into an arms
>> and tecnology race for the best way to cheat.  Colorado will be
>>banning inlines
>> during ML big game seasons, or already has, if my memory serves me
>>right.  Here
>> in Nevada only open sights are allowed, and that really takes away
>>the benefit
>> of  an inline anyway.
>>
>> Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant.
>> Sega
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Clay Landry <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
Date: 12 Nov 1998 18:16:26 -0700 (MST)

unsubscribe
Clay Landry
P.O. Box 1033
Columbus MT 59019
--------------




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 20:31:23 -0600

Well said Capt., but here it is in real terms. Anybody that would shoot a
inline plasic stocked blackpowder rifle would no doubt eat dung and bark at
the moon.
Pendleton

----------
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
> Date: Thursday, November 12, 1998 10:37 AM
>
> Dear Friend,
>
> Yes Correy, there is a knight stalker out there that will take
unbelievers in the knight. They will find themselves caught between two
worlds ever to ride the line between real and unreal. Some make it back. We
try to save as many as we can. But there are few of us and the minions of
the knight stalker are many. Some never come to the true path, forever
doomed and cursed to walk where they know not who they are. They think they
belong but they don't. They are not truly of our world and they are not
truly of the Other World. We would welcome them in but as long as they
carry the cursed impurity they can not truly walk the Path. Guard your
selves My Sons and Daughters. Do not be tempted by the Evil Dressed in
Modern Sophistication. Keep close to your bosom the guards against evil we
live by: Powder, Patch, and Ball. With my Friend True Rifle WE Shall
Conquer ALL. I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> Corey Tretteen wrote:
>
> > I think I just felt a blast of cold air...   the presence of evilness,
maybe?
> >
> > >>> Roger Lahti <[e-mail]> 11/11 10:33 AM >>>
> > Corey,
> >
> > Picture a modern bolt action rifle with bolt action and all the other
lines typical of that style of firearm, probably with a
> > plastic stock. Now load it from the muzzle as you would a normal ML'r.
Now work the bolt as you would to insert a cartridge
> > into the chamber. Instead of a cartridge, you will put a cap or high
power primer on a nipple and close the bolt. The rifle is
> > now ready to shoot. Kinda leaves you cold don't it! I remain........
> >
> > YMOS
> > Capt. Lahti'
> >
> > Corey Tretteen wrote:
> >
> > > "but if he's willing to make the attempt to LOOK PERIOD CORRECT(and
not show up with one of those damn inline bp burners)"
> > >
> > > Ok, question.   whats an inline BP burner?   I get that it is a
rifle, but what is the inline refering to?
> > >
> > > Corey
> >
> >












       !
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 12 Nov 1998 20:22:15 -0600

Excuse me if i ruffled any feathers, but the initial posting was refering
to trying to find the location of a fort. I THINK ! ! Has anybody stopped
to think it is highly likely that the course of the river has changed in
the last 175 years. I'll admit to being bored by the discussion, but  I did
not mean to belittle those that weren't.
Pendleton

----------
> From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
> Date: Thursday, November 12, 1998 1:46 PM
>
> Contrary to one posting I've found this an interesting thread.
>
> For those looking for an early nineteenth century online dictionary,
which
> they claim Noah wrote.
> <<http://www.christiantech.com/>http://www.christiantech.com>
>
> The following is from Webster's 1828 Dictionary which supports of the
> downstream
> dominant position.  Does that sound kinky?
>
> LEFT:
>
<<http://www.christiantech.com/cgi-bin/webster.exe?search_for_cgi-bin/texts
>
/web1828=left>http://www.christiantech.com/cgi-bin/webster.exe?search_for_c
> gi-bin/texts/web1828=left>
>
> "2. The left bank of a river, is that which is on the left hand of a
person
> whose face is towards the mouth of the river."
>
> RIGHT:
>
<<http://www.christiantech.com/cgi-bin/webster.exe?search_for_cgi-bin/texts
>
/web1828=right>http://www.christiantech.com/cgi-bin/webster.exe?search_for_
> cgi-bin/texts/web1828=right>
>
> "13. Being on the right hand of a person whose face is towards the mouth
of a
> river; as the right bank of the Hudson."
>
> Also supporting this position is the Seine River of France.  The famous
Left
> Bank is on the South and the less famous Right Bank on the North as the
river
> flows West through Paris and then turns north to empty into the English
> Channel.  Consistent with the dictionaries.  I suspect because
landlubbers
> consider rivers primary waterways which flow from a source to the mouth.

>
> Now I have a question for the old salts.  If the sea is the dominant
factor in
> determining which is the "right" side of a navigable waterway marked
under
> maritime rules, which side is the "right side" of the Panama Canal?  What
> about
> channels between seas, like the English Channel?
>
> John...
>
>
> At 01:12 AM 11/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >Hello the List,
> >
> >The meaning of right and left when applied to the *BANKS* of a river is
> >clear and unambigious in all dictionaries. Note that refering correctly
> >to the *BANK* of a river is a separate matter from what is the right
> >side of river's mouth or a channel to a sailor returning from the sea.
> >Careful authors like Morgan use words according to their dictionary
> >definitions. Setting personal opinions aside, I would like anyone to
> >cite any dictionary anywhere that defines right BANK and left BANK
> >differently from the crystal clear statement that follows:
> >
> >"Note: In designating the banks of a river, right and left are used
> >always with reference to the position of one who is facing in the
> >direction of the current's flow."
> >
> >- Websters Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
> ><http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict>http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict
> >
> >If I can find a 19th century online dictionary it will say the same
> >thing and I'll bring it to your attention, but it isn't the dictionaries
> >that argue about this definition, just us.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
> John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Floor cloth?
Date: 14 Nov 1998 12:26:57 -0700

Allen or Clay,

In BOB VII pg.29, the terms "floor cloth drawers" and "green floor cloth
drawers" are mentioned.

What is "floor cloth"?
What would it be known as today if available?

Thanks,
Ron

Lanney there's a link to your "Letter...." at link below. THANKS!


Lewis Fork Free Trappers
<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/Trappers.html>
Email <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: bp derranger
Date: 14 Nov 1998 06:00:14 -0800 (PST)


ho list
i am looking for a bp derranger that would be correct for the fur
trade era. any help would be greatly appreciated.
walks in the night
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

==


      Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 13 Nov 1998 17:01:30 -0500

Ho the list,

OK, I wasn't going to get in on this one but I couldn't resist when Kurt
mentioned Lewis and Clark. The captains did use "larboard" and "starboard"
to mean (usually) the left and right side of the boat. Occasionally, they
used "larboard side" and "starboard side" to mean the left and right banks
of the river. According to DeVoto's edition of the Journals, the left and
right banks of the Missouri are (I'm quoting here): to the right and the
left respectively of the boat.

In other words, the right bank of the Missouri (to Lewis and Clark) was the
bank on their left as they proceeded upstream, on their right as they
proceeded downstream. I have, in my own examinations of the Original
Journals, verified DeVoto's conclusion. For Lewis and Clark, the convention
was to name the banks of a stream based on the direction in which the stream
was flowing. For a stream flowing from the north, then, the right bank was
the west bank, on the right hand side of someone traveling south down the
river.

I certainly hope that clears up the confusion! I thought I understood
perfectly what Lewis and Clark meant by "l.s." and "s.s." until I started
this.

Keep your horse happy and you won't have to deal with either bank of the
river.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


-----Original Message-----


>I tried sending this once, I guess it didn't get through so if this is
>double for you folks I apologize.  KW
>
>
>Isn't it amazing (and wonderful) how such a simple question can raise so
>much contoversy!  I was laying up
>thinking about this last night (yes I need to get a life, or mayhap
>better dreams) and wondered about Lewis &
>Clark.  After all they wrote bunches about where they went.  Often they
>refer to left & right as "larboard &
>starboard" which refer to left & right sides of a water craft. (as I
>understand it - been on the ocean twice and
>never heard either term - so if I'm wrong please correct)  But they use
>it in reference to the river banks such as a
>river might enter upon the larboard side.  My question is:  do their
>references to left and right change when they
>change direction in relation to river flow.  Is larboard (their left)
>when facing up the Missouri still their left when
>going down the Columbia in 1805?  Is an object spotted on the larboard
>side on the way up the Missouri still on
>the larboard side while headed down?  And is the same true when they
>refer to right and left instead of starboard
>& larboard?
>
>Just thought I'd throw this out and see if anyone wants the research
>challenge and will report back.  Personally I
>find the topic interesting but there's not enough spark to catch fire -
>yet anyway.
>
>Another brain fart:  I thought that when a ship entered harbor in the
>early days (whenever that was) there was a
>"pilot" or some such person who came out to the vessel to guide it in.
>This implies (to me) an absence of
>channel bouys.  If this is so (and I plainly admit I'm way over my head
>when out on the ocean) when did
>channel bouys come into common use in harbors, river mouths, and in
>navigable rivers such as the
>Mississippi?  I ask because the date may provde some insight into the
>direction issue.
>
>Snowin' here in West Yellowstone!  :-)
>kurt
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction?
Date: 13 Nov 1998 02:47:30 EST

Larboard did fall out of favor, but port wasn't invented to replace, it was
commonly used for centuries.  Starboard is a corruption of steerboard or
steering board. Rudders were lashed on to the left side of the vessel.
Steerage was handled similar to a paddle & canoe, except much larger.  Docking
tended to snap off the steering board unless you tied up on the other side of
the boat. Left side, port side. Right side, steerboard side.

Allowing that port and starboard had the same practical use as left and right,
I would imagine that directions to the pass "left of the mountain" would
naturally change to "right of the mountain" when returning.  Although if they
didn't do that it would explain why they never left the mountains.

-john



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
Date: 11 Nov 1998 11:20:36 -0800

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Pat the statement of Cottonwood might be in correct I think they used
Ponderosa Pine.  I don't remember if I read it or see it in at Ft Clatsop
OR or just dreamed it.  But recall the pine because I know how hard it is
to work when it is wet with pitch.  Later Jon T

----------
: From: John L. Allen <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
: Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 3:26 PM
:
: More on the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:
:
: As my original message stated, the iron frame boat was intended to be
: covered with skins or bark. Rubber was never--as far as I know--even
: suggested.
:
: The boat was NOT carried across the mountains. It was abandoned during
the
: portage around Great Falls (of the Missouri). After covering the iron
frame
: with skins on July 9, 1805 (above the Great Falls), to produce the
: collapsible boat, Lewis tried to make her river-worthy. The buffalo
hides,
: however, shrunk and the iron boat foundered. Knowing that it was too late
in
: the season to get and prepare more buffalo hides, the decision was made
to
: abandon the iron frame.To quote from the Journals, Lewis's entry for
: Tuesday, July 9th, 1805: I therefore relinquished all further hope of my
: favorite boat and ordered her to be sunk in the water, that the skins
might
: become soft in order the better to take her in peices [sic] tomorrow and
: deposited the iron fraim [sic] at this place as it could probably be of
no
: further service to us.
:
: This was end of the iron boat experiment. Ken Karsminski of the Museum of
: the Rockies in Bozeman, MT, has made a concerted search for the iron
frame
: in the Great Falls area without success. My guess is that the Indians
found
: it and broke it up for the iron to use in war-axes, etc.
:
: But the iron or collapsible boat did most certainly not cross the Rockies
: with the Expedition.
:
: Keep your powder dry.
:
: John.
:
: Dr. John L. Allen
: 21 Thomas Drive
: Storrs, CT 06268
: 860/487-1346
: [e-mail]
:
:
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
: To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
: Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 1:41 PM
: Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
:
:
: >Regarding the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:
: >As I recall, the frame was lugged over the mountains to the first
western
: >flowing stream, where the Corps attempted to complete the plan of
covering
: >it with skins (not rubber). This was one of several "high tech" devices
: >produced to support the expedition, such as the well known lead
canisters
: >with powder, the air rifle, and the 1803 pattern Harper's Ferry rifles.
: This
: >one, however, failed, despite the best efforts of Lewis, as recounted in
: >"Undaunted Courage". They used glover's needles to sew the skins, which
: >produced slight slits which opened up under strain, and they couldn't
get
: >adequate pitch or a substitute for sealing. After some weeks of effort,
: >Lewis had to abandon the project and cached the frame. Meanwhile, Clark
had
: >moved men downstream until they found cottonwoods big enough to make
: >dugouts, which carried them down river to the Pacific.
: >Pat Quilter
: >
: >-----Original Message-----
: >From: John L. Allen [mailto:[e-mail]]
: >Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:59 AM
: >To: [e-mail]
: >Subject: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
: >
: >
: >Ho the list,
: >
: >A question was raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and
Clark
: >had a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating to
rubber
: >ponchos, etc.
: >
: >Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame
: (made
: >in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as Great
Falls
: >where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was intended to be
: >covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good description of
it,
: >it was probably something like an Irish curragh--or even like a Mandan
: >bullboat.
: >
: >John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two
expeditions
: >into the West. He refers to them as "India rubber" boats and mentions
them
: >in his journals as being used on both the North Platte and the Great
Salt
: >Lake. His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. The next year,
on
: >Salt Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as well since it
: wasn't
: >"as well stitched together" as the one used on his first expedition.
This
: >suggests a boat made from several pieces of material sewn in some
fashion.
: >These rubber boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide and could carry a
: >wagon. They were apparently inflatable (he mentions several places
"filling
: >our India rubber boat with air"). Best source for Fremont is Donald
Jackson
: >and Mary Spence (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 vols.
: >Univ. of Illinois Press.
: >
: >If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then
obviously
: >the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. out of
rubber
: >or rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the Rocky
Mountain
: >fur trade era.
: >
: >Keep your powder dry.
: >
: >John
: >
: >Dr. John L. Allen
: >21 Thomas Drive
: >Storrs, CT 06268
: >860/487-1346
: >[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
: >
: >
: >
: >
:
:
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Pat the statement of Cottonwood might =
be in correct I think they used Ponderosa Pine.  I don't remember =
if I read it or see it in at Ft Clatsop OR or just dreamed it.  But =
recall the pine because I know how hard it is to work when it is wet =
with pitch.  Later Jon T <br><br>----------<br>: From: John L. =
Allen <<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods<br>: Date: =
Monday, November 09, 1998 3:26 PM<br>: <br>: More on the collapsible =
boat of Lewis and Clark:<br>: <br>: As my original message stated, the =
iron frame boat was intended to be<br>: covered with skins or bark. =
Rubber was never--as far as I know--even<br>: suggested.<br>: <br>: The =
boat was NOT carried across the mountains. It was abandoned during =
the<br>: portage around Great Falls (of the Missouri). After covering =
the iron frame<br>: with skins on July 9, 1805 (above the Great Falls), =
to produce the<br>: collapsible boat, Lewis tried to make her =
river-worthy. The buffalo hides,<br>: however, shrunk and the iron boat =
foundered. Knowing that it was too late in<br>: the season to get and =
prepare more buffalo hides, the decision was made to<br>: abandon the =
iron frame.To quote from the Journals, Lewis's entry for<br>: Tuesday, =
July 9th, 1805: I therefore relinquished all further hope of my<br>: =
favorite boat and ordered her to be sunk in the water, that the skins =
might<br>: become soft in order the better to take her in peices [sic] =
tomorrow and<br>: deposited the iron fraim [sic] at this place as it =
could probably be of no<br>: further service to us.<br>: <br>: This was =
end of the iron boat experiment. Ken Karsminski of the Museum of<br>: =
the Rockies in Bozeman, MT, has made a concerted search for the iron =
frame<br>: in the Great Falls area without success. My guess is that the =
Indians found<br>: it and broke it up for the iron to use in war-axes, =
etc.<br>: <br>: But the iron or collapsible boat did most certainly not =
cross the Rockies<br>: with the Expedition.<br>: <br>: Keep your powder =
dry.<br>: <br>: John.<br>: <br>: Dr. John L. Allen<br>: 21 Thomas =
Drive<br>: Storrs, CT 06268<br>: 860/487-1346<br>: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000"><br>: =
<br>: <br>: -----Original Message-----<br>: From: Pat Quilter <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: '<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">' <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 1:41 PM<br>: =
collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:<br>: >As I recall, the frame was =
lugged over the mountains to the first western<br>: >flowing stream, =
where the Corps attempted to complete the plan of covering<br>: >it =
with skins (not rubber). This was one of several "high tech" =
devices<br>: >produced to support the expedition, such as the well =
known lead canisters<br>: >with powder, the air rifle, and the 1803 =
pattern Harper's Ferry rifles.<br>: This<br>: >one, however, failed, =
despite the best efforts of Lewis, as recounted in<br>: =
>"Undaunted Courage". They used glover's needles to sew the =
skins, which<br>: >produced slight slits which opened up under =
strain, and they couldn't get<br>: >adequate pitch or a substitute =
for sealing. After some weeks of effort,<br>: >Lewis had to abandon =
the project and cached the frame. Meanwhile, Clark had<br>: >moved =
men downstream until they found cottonwoods big enough to make<br>: =
>dugouts, which carried them down river to the Pacific.<br>: >Pat =
Quilter<br>: ><br>: >-----Original Message-----<br>: >From: =
John L. Allen [<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>mailto:[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">]<br>: >Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:59 =
AM<br>: >To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: >Subject: MtMan-List: Rubber goods<br>: =
><br>: ><br>: >Ho the list,<br>: ><br>: >A question was =
raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and Clark<br>: >had =
a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating to =
rubber<br>: >ponchos, etc.<br>: ><br>: >Lewis and Clark did not =
have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame<br>: (made<br>: >in =
Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as =
Great Falls<br>: >where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron =
frame was intended to be<br>: >covered with hides and/or bark. =
Although we have no good description of it,<br>: >it was probably =
something like an Irish curragh--or even like a Mandan<br>: =
>bullboat.<br>: ><br>: >John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used =
rubber boats on his first two expeditions<br>: >into the West. He =
refers to them as "India rubber" boats and mentions them<br>: =
>in his journals as being used on both the North Platte and the Great =
Salt<br>: >Lake. His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. =
The next year, on<br>: >Salt Lake, he noted that the rubber boat =
didn't work as well since it<br>: wasn't<br>: >"as well stitched =
together" as the one used on his first expedition. This<br>: =
>suggests a boat made from several pieces of material sewn in some =
fashion.<br>: >These rubber boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide =
and could carry a<br>: >wagon. They were apparently inflatable (he =
mentions several places "filling<br>: >our India rubber boat =
with air"). Best source for Fremont is Donald Jackson<br>: >and =
Mary Spence (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 =
vols.<br>: >Univ. of Illinois Press.<br>: ><br>: >If Fremont, =
in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then obviously<br>: =
>the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. out of =
rubber<br>: >or rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of =
the Rocky Mountain<br>: >fur trade era.<br>: ><br>: >Keep your =
powder dry.<br>: ><br>: >John<br>: ><br>: >Dr. John L. =
Allen<br>: >21 Thomas Drive<br>: >Storrs, CT 06268<br>: =
>860/487-1346<br>: ><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000"> =
<<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>mailto:[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: ><br>: ><br>: ><br>: ><br>: =
<br>: </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font=
></body></html>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 11 Nov 1998 20:27:55 -0800

Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> >I find it hard to believe that there were 4 grades of powder
> >back then.
> >Any ideas?

Besides the four grades of rifle powder, there were various grades of blasting
powder and cannon powder.  I'll try and dig out some of my old references and
see what I can find.  Before the days of dynamite, black powder was the only
commercial blasting agent available.

                      Dennis



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
Date: 08 Nov 1998 16:42:35 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Yea John K I have the book and I was just hoping someone could come up wi=
th
facts but the 1700's is to good to be true.  The 1850 or + would be more
like it.  Later Jon T =20

----------
Cc: [e-mail]

Jon T.

The only attributed cookware of George Washington's, I am aware of, is
pictured
in "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution"=A0
George C.
Neumann and Frank J. Kravic=A0 ISBN 0-8117-0394-0

Page 94 shows the cook kit with plates, platters and pots all in tin.=A0=A0=
 The
confusion may result from the top of the Washington Monument being capped
in
aluminum (the most expensive metal at the time it was built).

It is unlikely any early cookware was made of metal more valuable than
gold.

I'm still digging for an exact date but, if memory serves to something
noted
long ago in passing; the first aluminum was made somewhere in the late
1850's.

John...




At 06:33 AM 11/8/98 -0800, you wrote:=20

>
> Paul J. I also hope someone can come up some references for George
> Washington's =A0cook ware Now days it takes electric power to make alum=
inum
I
> am union pipe welder by trade and I worked with an old welder who could
weld
> aluminum with a torch. =A0But me it took a Tig welder. =A0But I can do =
magic
with
> a Tig torch. =A0I am going to also send this to the Hist-list. =A0Later=
 Jon T

>
> ----------
> : From: Paul Jacobson <[e-mail]>
> : To: [e-mail]
> : Subject: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
> : Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 1:39 PM
> :=20
> : These are interesting questions...I hope someone knows the answer and
will
> : include it here. =A0I can't add a thing of real value, except that my
mother,
> : bless her memory, got a set of aluminum cook ware for a wedding prese=
nt
in
> : the late 20's/early 30's. =A0Rumor was the aluminum would poison the
cook,
> : but her South Dakota good sense thought that silly. =A0I still have '=
em,
and
> : the big pan makes damn good popcorn. =A0It has since I was little
watching
> : Wallace Berry on our first TV.
> :=20
> : Cougar Heart
> : Paul Jacobson #1597
> : ----------
> : > From: WIDD-Tim Austin <[e-mail]>
> : > To: [e-mail]
> : > Subject: AMM-List: aluminum
> : > Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 6:37 AM
> : >=20
> : > Mr Kramer just brought up a subject that I have been interested in
> : > because of its current availability. =A0Aluminum. =A0Several years =
ago I
read
> : > that a General George Washington, revolution war era, had a cook se=
t
of
> : > aluminum. =A0Seems I also read the a Mr. Stewart took a set of alum=
inum
> : > cook ware with him West of the Mississippi River when he went. =A0D=
oes
> : > anyone have the exact documentation on this subject, or did my memo=
ry
> : > totally fail me on this one?
> : >=20
> : > Thank you for your assistance.
> : >=20
> : > Tim Austin #1564
> : >=20
> : > --------------------
> : > Aux Ailments de Pays!
> :=20
> : --------------------
> : Aux Ailments de Pays!



John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


----------

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Yea John K I have the book and I was =
just hoping someone could come up with facts but the 1700's is to good =
to be true.  The 1850 or + would be more like it.  Later Jon T =
 <br><br>----------<br>From: John Kramer <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>Cc: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: =
aluminum<br>Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 2:34 PM<br><br>Jon =
T.<br><br>The only attributed cookware of George Washington's, I am =
aware of, is<br>pictured<br>in "Collector's Illustrated =
Encyclopedia of the American Revolution"=A0<br>George C.<br>Neumann =
and Frank J. Kravic=A0 ISBN 0-8117-0394-0<br><br>Page 94 shows the cook =
kit with plates, platters and pots all in tin.=A0=A0 The<br>confusion =
may result from the top of the Washington Monument being capped =
in<br>aluminum (the most expensive metal at the time it was =
built).<br><br>It is unlikely any early cookware was made of metal more =
valuable than gold.<br><br>I'm still digging for an exact date but, if =
memory serves to something noted<br>long ago in passing; the first =
aluminum was made somewhere in the late =
1850's.<br><br>John...<br><br><br><br><br>At 06:33 AM 11/8/98 -0800, you =
wrote: <br><br>><br>> Paul J. I also hope someone can come up some =
references for George<br>> Washington's =A0cook ware Now days it =
takes electric power to make aluminum I<br>> am union pipe welder by =
trade and I worked with an old welder who could weld<br>> aluminum =
with a torch. =A0But me it took a Tig welder. =A0But I can do =
magic<br>with<br>> a Tig torch. =A0I am going to also send this to =
the Hist-list. =A0Later Jon T <br>><br>> ----------<br>> : =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>> : To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>> : Subject: Re: AMM-List: aluminum<br>> : =
interesting questions...I hope someone knows the answer and will<br>> =
: include it here. =A0I can't add a thing of real value, except that =
my<br>mother,<br>> : bless her memory, got a set of aluminum cook =
ware for a wedding present in<br>> : the late 20's/early 30's. =
=A0Rumor was the aluminum would poison the cook,<br>> : but her South =
Dakota good sense thought that silly. =A0I still have 'em, and<br>> : =
the big pan makes damn good popcorn. =A0It has since I was little =
watching<br>> : Wallace Berry on our first TV.<br>> : <br>> : =
Cougar Heart<br>> : Paul Jacobson #1597<br>> : ----------<br>> =
: > From: WIDD-Tim Austin <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>> : > To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>> : > Subject: AMM-List: aluminum<br>> : =
> Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 6:37 AM<br>> : > <br>> : =
> Mr Kramer just brought up a subject that I have been interested =
in<br>> : > because of its current availability. =A0Aluminum. =
=A0Several years ago I<br>read<br>> : > that a General George =
Washington, revolution war era, had a cook set of<br>> : > =
aluminum. =A0Seems I also read the a Mr. Stewart took a set of =
aluminum<br>> : > cook ware with him West of the Mississippi River =
when he went. =A0Does<br>> : > anyone have the exact documentation =
on this subject, or did my memory<br>> : > totally fail me on this =
one?<br>> : > <br>> : > Thank you for your =
assistance.<br>> : > <br>> : > Tim Austin #1564<br>> : =
> <br>> : > --------------------<br>> : > Aux Ailments de =
Pays!<br>> : <br>> : --------------------<br>> : Aux Ailments =
de Pays!<br><br><br><br>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0<br><br>Kramer's =
Best Antique Improver<br>>>>It makes wood =
wonderful<<<<br>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as =
old!<<<<br><br><<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.kramerize.com/</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br><br>mail to: <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">> <br><br><br>----------<br><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html=
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 10 Nov 1998 22:50:24 -0800

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> JD, iirc (if i recall correctly) powder was not originally packaged by
> fineness grades, but did change as it was carried around and ground itself
> down.

The powder in my horn doesn't "grind itself down"

The coarser stuff was used down the barrel; the finer in the pan, as it
> ignited faster.

Who screened the coarse from the fine?

The British Brown Bess musket was about 12 balls to the pound, or about
.75 caliber. They used a paper cartridge.  I DO NOT RECOMEND THIS, but
in combat the soldier tore the bottom off the paper, primed the pan,
closed the frizzen, poured the rest of the powder down the barrel
followed by the ball, paper and all and rammed it home while the gun was
PRIMED AND COCKED, but then soldiers tend to get hurt in combat so that
might be some justifaction for doing it that way.  The point I'm trying
to make is they primed with the same powder as the charge.  I'm thinking
that they probably had a better quality powder than we do.  My Dixie
Gunworks repo brown bess won't fire primed with FFg, and the gun sparks
real good.  I can prime with FFFg and it works fine though.  I wonder if
in those days they had the same granulations of powder that we do today?
            Dale Nelson



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bob Spencer)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 15 Nov 1998 20:00:14 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> JD, iirc (if i recall correctly) powder was not originally packaged by
> fineness grades, but did change as it was carried around and ground itself
> down.

And Dale Nelson wrote:

>I wonder if
>in those days they had the same granulations of powder that we do today?

Basically, yes. I've just ben searching the Pennsylvania Gazette for
1728-1800, and found some interesting advertisements of goods for sale
which relate to  this question, as well as mention in other articles.

September 28, 1752
The Pennsylvania Gazette

"....brown and yellow ware,
raisins and currants, F, FF and FFF powder , shot, lead,....."

July 2, 1752
The Pennsylvania Gazette

"....mens and boys castor and felt
hats, F, FF, FFF powder, shot and bar lead,...."

Some other terms used for powders, and the earliest references I found:

"glazed and unglazed" or "rough and glazed"---1739

Dutch gun powder---1748

"best pistol powder"---1749

"American manufactured"---1790

So, as early as the second quarter of the 18th century, they had at least
the same three main granulations we do, plus cannon powder, and they had
glazed powder.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html
non illegitimi carborundum est



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Norman Anderson)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
Date: 15 Nov 1998 13:34:03 +0000

Lewis and Clark used both cottonwood and ponderosa for their dugouts.  At
Fort Mandan, at the Great Falls, and on the Yellowstone on Clark's return,
they made canoes from cottonwood.  While with the Nez Perce after crossing
the divide they made more canoes from ponderosa for the voyage down to the
coast.

Respectfully,
Norman Anderson

>Pat the statement of Cottonwood might be in correct I think they used
>Ponderosa Pine.  I don't remember if I read it or see it in at Ft Clatsop
>OR or just dreamed it.  But recall the pine because I know how hard it is
>to work when it is wet with pitch.  Later Jon T
>
>----------
>: From: John L. Allen <[e-mail]>
>: To: [e-mail]
>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
>: Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 3:26 PM
>:
>: More on the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:
>:
>: As my original message stated, the iron frame boat was intended to be
>: covered with skins or bark. Rubber was never--as far as I know--even
>: suggested.
>:
>: The boat was NOT carried across the mountains. It was abandoned during
>the
>: portage around Great Falls (of the Missouri). After covering the iron
>frame
>: with skins on July 9, 1805 (above the Great Falls), to produce the
>: collapsible boat, Lewis tried to make her river-worthy. The buffalo
>hides,
>: however, shrunk and the iron boat foundered. Knowing that it was too late
>in
>: the season to get and prepare more buffalo hides, the decision was made
>to
>: abandon the iron frame.To quote from the Journals, Lewis's entry for
>: Tuesday, July 9th, 1805: I therefore relinquished all further hope of my
>: favorite boat and ordered her to be sunk in the water, that the skins
>might
>: become soft in order the better to take her in peices [sic] tomorrow and
>: deposited the iron fraim [sic] at this place as it could probably be of
>no
>: further service to us.
>:
>: This was end of the iron boat experiment. Ken Karsminski of the Museum of
>: the Rockies in Bozeman, MT, has made a concerted search for the iron
>frame
>: in the Great Falls area without success. My guess is that the Indians
>found
>: it and broke it up for the iron to use in war-axes, etc.
>:
>: But the iron or collapsible boat did most certainly not cross the Rockies
>: with the Expedition.
>:
>: Keep your powder dry.
>:
>: John.
>:
>: Dr. John L. Allen
>: 21 Thomas Drive
>: Storrs, CT 06268
>: 860/487-1346
>: [e-mail]
>:
>:
>: -----Original Message-----
>: From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>: To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>: Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 1:41 PM
>: Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
>:
>:
>: >Regarding the collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:
>: >As I recall, the frame was lugged over the mountains to the first
>western
>: >flowing stream, where the Corps attempted to complete the plan of
>covering
>: >it with skins (not rubber). This was one of several "high tech" devices
>: >produced to support the expedition, such as the well known lead
>canisters
>: >with powder, the air rifle, and the 1803 pattern Harper's Ferry rifles.
>: This
>: >one, however, failed, despite the best efforts of Lewis, as recounted in
>: >"Undaunted Courage". They used glover's needles to sew the skins, which
>: >produced slight slits which opened up under strain, and they couldn't
>get
>: >adequate pitch or a substitute for sealing. After some weeks of effort,
>: >Lewis had to abandon the project and cached the frame. Meanwhile, Clark
>had
>: >moved men downstream until they found cottonwoods big enough to make
>: >dugouts, which carried them down river to the Pacific.
>: >Pat Quilter
>: >
>: >-----Original Message-----
>: >From: John L. Allen [mailto:[e-mail]]
>: >Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:59 AM
>: >To: [e-mail]
>: >Subject: MtMan-List: Rubber goods
>: >
>: >
>: >Ho the list,
>: >
>: >A question was raised a few days ago about whether or not Lewis and
>Clark
>: >had a rubber boat. This question came out of the thread relating to
>rubber
>: >ponchos, etc.
>: >
>: >Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They carried an iron frame
>: (made
>: >in Pittsburgh) for a "portable boat" up the Missouri as far as Great
>Falls
>: >where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was intended to be
>: >covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good description of
>it,
>: >it was probably something like an Irish curragh--or even like a Mandan
>: >bullboat.
>: >
>: >John C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two
>expeditions
>: >into the West. He refers to them as "India rubber" boats and mentions
>them
>: >in his journals as being used on both the North Platte and the Great
>Salt
>: >Lake. His rubber boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. The next year,
>on
>: >Salt Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as well since it
>: wasn't
>: >"as well stitched together" as the one used on his first expedition.
>This
>: >suggests a boat made from several pieces of material sewn in some
>fashion.
>: >These rubber boats were 20 feet long and 5 feet wide and could carry a
>: >wagon. They were apparently inflatable (he mentions several places
>"filling
>: >our India rubber boat with air"). Best source for Fremont is Donald
>Jackson
>: >and Mary Spence (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN CHARLES FREMONT, 3 vols.
>: >Univ. of Illinois Press.
>: >
>: >If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then
>obviously
>: >the technology was in place to make serviceable ponchos, etc. out of
>rubber
>: >or rubber-coated cloth during at least the tail end of the Rocky
>Mountain
>: >fur trade era.
>: >
>: >Keep your powder dry.
>: >
>: >John
>: >
>: >Dr. John L. Allen
>: >21 Thomas Drive
>: >Storrs, CT 06268
>: >860/487-1346
>: >[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>:
>:
><html><head></head><BODY bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p><font size=2 color="#000000"
>face="Arial">Pat the statement of Cottonwood might be in correct I think
>they used Ponderosa Pine.  I don't remember if I read it or see it in
>at Ft Clatsop OR or just dreamed it.  But recall the pine because I
>know how hard it is to work when it is wet with pitch.  Later Jon T
><br><br>----------<br>: From: John L. Allen <<font
>color="#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color="#000000">><br>: To:
><font color="#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font
>color="#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rubber goods<br>: Date:
>Monday, November 09, 1998 3:26 PM<br>: <br>: More on the collapsible boat
>of Lewis and Clark:<br>: <br>: As my original message stated, the iron
>frame boat was intended to be<br>: covered with skins or bark. Rubber was
>never--as far as I know--even<br>: suggested.<br>: <br>: The boat was NOT
>carried across the mountains. It was abandoned during the<br>: portage
>around Great Falls (of the Missouri). After covering the iron frame<br>:
>with skins on July 9, 1805 (above the Great Falls), to produce the<br>:
>collapsible boat, Lewis tried to make her river-worthy. The buffalo
>hides,<br>: however, shrunk and the iron boat foundered. Knowing that it
>was too late in<br>: the season to get and prepare more buffalo hides, the
>decision was made to<br>: abandon the iron frame.To quote from the
>Journals, Lewis's entry for<br>: Tuesday, July 9th, 1805: I therefore
>relinquished all further hope of my<br>: favorite boat and ordered her to
>be sunk in the water, that the skins might<br>: become soft in order the
>better to take her in peices [sic] tomorrow and<br>: deposited the iron
>fraim [sic] at this place as it could probably be of no<br>: further
>service to us.<br>: <br>: This was end of the iron boat experiment. Ken
>Karsminski of the Museum of<br>: the Rockies in Bozeman, MT, has made a
>concerted search for the iron frame<br>: in the Great Falls area without
>success. My guess is that the Indians found<br>: it and broke it up for
>the iron to use in war-axes, etc.<br>: <br>: But the iron or collapsible
>boat did most certainly not cross the Rockies<br>: with the
>Expedition.<br>: <br>: Keep your powder dry.<br>: <br>: John.<br>: <br>:
>Dr. John L. Allen<br>: 21 Thomas Drive<br>: Storrs, CT 06268<br>:
>860/487-1346<br>: <font color="#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font
>color="#000000"><br>: <br>: <br>: -----Original Message-----<br>: From:
>Pat Quilter <<font color="#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font
>color="#000000">><br>: To: '<font
>color="#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color="#000000">'
><<font color="#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font
>color="#000000">><br>: Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 1:41 PM<br>:
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rubber goods<br>: <br>: <br>: >Regarding the
>collapsible boat of Lewis and Clark:<br>: >As I recall, the frame was
>lugged over the mountains to the first western<br>: >flowing stream,
>where the Corps attempted to complete the plan of covering<br>: >it
>with skins (not rubber). This was one of several "high tech"
>devices<br>: >produced to support the expedition, such as the well
>known lead canisters<br>: >with powder, the air rifle, and the 1803
>pattern Harper's Ferry rifles.<br>: This<br>: >one, however, failed,
>despite the best efforts of Lewis, as recounted in<br>:
>>"Undaunted Courage". They used glover's needles to sew the
>skins, which<br>: >produced slight slits which opened up under strain,
>and they couldn't get<br>: >adequate pitch or a substitute for sealing.
>After some weeks of effort,<br>: >Lewis had to abandon the project and
>cached the frame. Meanwhile, Clark had<br>: >moved men downstream until
>they found cottonwoods big enough to make<br>: >dugouts, which carried
>them down river to the Pacific.<br>: >Pat Quilter<br>: ><br>:
>>-----Original Message-----<br>: >From: John L. Allen [<font
>color="#0000FF"><u>mailto:[e-mail]</u><font color="#000000">]<br>:
>>Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:59 AM<br>: >To: <font
>color="#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font
>color="#000000"><br>: >Subject: MtMan-List: Rubber goods<br>: ><br>:
>><br>: >Ho the list,<br>: ><br>: >A question was raised a few
>days ago about whether or not Lewis and Clark<br>: >had a rubber boat.
>This question came out of the thread relating to rubber<br>: >ponchos,
>etc.<br>: ><br>: >Lewis and Clark did not have a rubber boat. They
>carried an iron frame<br>: (made<br>: >in Pittsburgh) for a
>"portable boat" up the Missouri as far as Great Falls<br>:
>>where they abandoned (or cached) it. This iron frame was intended to
>be<br>: >covered with hides and/or bark. Although we have no good
>description of it,<br>: >it was probably something like an Irish
>curragh--or even like a Mandan<br>: >bullboat.<br>: ><br>: >John
>C. Fremont, in 1842-44, used rubber boats on his first two
>expeditions<br>: >into the West. He refers to them as "India
>rubber" boats and mentions them<br>: >in his journals as being
>used on both the North Platte and the Great Salt<br>: >Lake. His rubber
>boat worked well on the Platte in 1842. The next year, on<br>: >Salt
>Lake, he noted that the rubber boat didn't work as well since it<br>:
>wasn't<br>: >"as well stitched together" as the one used on
>his first expedition. This<br>: >suggests a boat made from several
>pieces of material sewn in some fashion.<br>: >These rubber boats were
>20 feet long and 5 feet wide and could carry a<br>: >wagon. They were
>apparently inflatable (he mentions several places "filling<br>:
>>our India rubber boat with air"). Best source for Fremont is
>Donald Jackson<br>: >and Mary Spence (eds.), THE EXPEDITIONS OF JOHN
>CHARLES FREMONT, 3 vols.<br>: >Univ. of Illinois Press.<br>: ><br>:
>>If Fremont, in 1842-44, was using an inflatable rubber boat, then
>obviously<br>: >the technology was in place to make serviceable
>ponchos, etc. out of rubber<br>: >or rubber-coated cloth during at
>least the tail end of the Rocky Mountain<br>: >fur trade era.<br>:
>><br>: >Keep your powder dry.<br>: ><br>: >John<br>: ><br>:
>>Dr. John L. Allen<br>: >21 Thomas Drive<br>: >Storrs, CT
>06268<br>: >860/487-1346<br>: ><font
>color="#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color="#000000"> <<font
>color="#0000FF"><u>mailto:[e-mail]</u><font
>color="#000000">><br>: ><br>: ><br>: ><br>: ><br>: <br>:
></p>
></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></fon
>t></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></b
>ody></html>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 15 Nov 1998 17:41:27 -0600

>[e-mail] wrote:
>
> JD, iirc (if i recall correctly) powder was not originally packaged by
> fineness grades, but did change as it was carried around and ground itself
> down.


I am sure this statement was not made to imply that one could grind their
powder down to make it finer.  So I write for extra caution so noone might
get the wrong idea and possibly get hurt.

>From my tour of the original duPont Brandywine River black powder works in
Delaware, I learned that grinding powder, even in a wet state can be
hazardous to your life.  Indeed, many lethal explosions happened during this
process.  In fact, they designed the grinders in the anticipation of
occassional detonations.  The grinders were put into buildings with only
three walls, and a roof that was designed to blow off.  The open side was
towards the river, where there was nothing to blow up.  They had many
grinders that were separated by the requisite distance so if one blew up,
the others would not go.

The grinders were large stone wheels that rolled in a circle in a crucible.
The wheels were powered by the water.

I also wrote down the formula and steps for making gunpowder by the original
recipe, but I wisely decided not to venture into such a hazardous
occupation.

In the interest of safety,

Iron Burner



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 15 Nov 1998 17:47:05 -0600

While on the subject of black powder, does anyone have firm safety rules for
loading and firing a swivel gun?  With and without a projectile? Are there
such rules that survive from the period?  I can think of the obvious, but I
would hate to be around when something not so obvious happens.  Maybe we
have been too lax.

Iron Burner



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 16 Nov 1998 11:06:53 -0700

[e-mail] (Bob Spencer) concluded, after research :
<<So, as early as the second quarter of the 18th century, they had at least
the same three main granulations we do, plus cannon powder, and they had
glazed powder.>>

Good research there, Bob! The next question is, did all of these grades make
it into the fur trade? For the Canadian fur trade (1774-1821), the answer is
almost certainly no. Although kegs of 'powder' and 'gunpowder' show up
frequently in fur trade journals, inventories, and memoirs, it's always just
one kind of gunpowder. I've got inventory lists that show, for instance,
nineteen kinds of files, four different kinds of rings, ten different kinds
of shirts, and six different kinds of blankets, but only one kind of powder.
So I'm forced to conclude that the guns used in the fur trade were loaded
and primed with the same powder-- probably FF, it works fine in the trade
gun and Brown Bess used in my household.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Re: Tinning
Date: 16 Nov 1998 11:06:42 -0700

>From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
>To: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>

>Sorry about the consternation, I'll gladly lend all the help I can to clear it
>up.  I am unfortunately not an expert on human toxicology.  My education is
as a
>zoologist, so I know just enough to be both dangerous and deadly boring, not
>necessarily enough to be presumed to have a good batting average on being
>right.  I have paid some attention to issues in 18th and 19th century medical
>practice, but will readily defer to anyone with a serious interest.
>
>> A quick check confirmed that, yes, antimony is toxic.
>
>Ahhhh, here we come to the crux.  Toxic is a pretty broad term for things that
>harm us.  The use of antimony in medications tells me that a considerable dose
>of the stuff from time to time clearly 'cleaned one right out' but equally
>clearly didn't kill off the patients, at least not right away.  I do not know
>enough about the toxicity of Sb to tell you much about the short and long term
>effects of intermittent large or small doses, or more to our point here the
>immediate and long term effects of intermittent small and chronic small doses.
>I cannot tell you about the body's ability to flush out Sb, or the extent to
>which it accumulates.  Lead and mercury are shown to accumulate, and eventually
>harm us when the saved up dose is sufficient.  Another issue is the notion that
>it matters little how much poison is in a pot or plate, only how much gets into
>us.  Consider the common use of considerable amounts of mercury in making the
>dental amalgam used to fill out teeth, yet the mercury is not available to
>dissolve or migrate into the parts of our system that might harm us.
>
>I suppose that the risk of getting enough antimony dissolved out of a 5% alloy
>in cooking a dish in a 'tinned' pot or use of a plate or spoon to make one
>discernibly ill right away is almost nonexistent.  Long term or chronic
toxicity
>is the chief concern here.
>
>I see several factors at work in judging these issues.  A cooking pot, with
>contents that are potentially quite acidic or quite alkaline, at elevated
>temperatures, and for extended periods of contact time seems a greater risk
than
>a spoon or plate, where the contact time and temperature are both better.  A
>vessel (pot or plate) in use everyday poses a greater risk than one used
>occasionally.   Darn few of us are able to play with our rendezvous toys as
>regularly as we might like.  Thus the opportunities for Sb to migrate into
foods
>and then into us is a factor to consider.
>
>A second issue is the rate of migration from particular alloys.  I am reminded
>of the 'passivation' of mercury in our dental fillings, and in the other case I
>recall the issues with lead migrating out of ceramic glazes and causing genuine
>human health hazards.  I cannot however find any information on Sb being
>unavailable in the alloys you are concerned with here.   Lacking such special
>information prompts me to presume that Sb is available, until proven otherwise.
>The tests could be readily done in a lab, which I don't have available.
>
>Yesterday I was working in a large pathology lab (repairing their microscopes)
>and in discussions with a couple of the pathologists got some leads on
published
>works, most of which involved exposure to a highly toxic stibine gas (bad news)
>SbH3 or to Sb dust (likewise a nasty situation).  The lab's library had some
>referenced I was unable to thoroughly research, but the two I did peruse were
>concerned with high concentration and short duration exposures.  They all
agreed
>that antimony and arsenic are pathologically very similar, which brings up an
>interesting prospect:  as mystery readers all know arsenic intake can induce a
>tolerance, where  very high doses can eventually be tolerated.  I found no
>information about the health effects of long term low dosage, and in our cases
>intermittent dosage health effects.
>
>I will be in contact with business associates at our state health department,
>our federal Environmental Protection Agency, and some contacts at our regional
>medical school for further information, and I am sure that an effective
internet
>search could clear up some, and perhaps all of our questions.  I will invest
>some time in that enterprise, but work pressure is rather intense just now, and
>I cannot provide the prompt response I would like.   I am presuming that
you are
>in an academic setting up there -- if so, could you check for information
to add
>to the pool as well?
>
>I noted that you bypassed the mailing list with your inquiry, and I am likewise
>replying 'offline'.  At some point this information seems quite suitable
for the
>remainder of our online friends, perhaps one or both of us should 'publish'
some
>results when we have more answers than questions.
>
>
>> The problem is that we already
>> have a number of pots tinned with the 95/5 Sn/Sb solder mentioned earlier.
>> So, we went to our friendly neighborhood metal alloyer to get pure tin to
>> tin future pots. We also asked about Britannia metal for pouring spoons. To
>> make a long story short, Britannia metal and pewter used in making plates,
>> mugs, etc. consist, generally, of 91% tin, 7.5% antimony, and 1.5% copper.
>>
>
>My 'default' course of action is to avoid antimony (just as I avoid arsenic)
>altogether until it is proven safe.   We might find some answers from the
>industries that produce commercial pewter ware, certainly worth checking in
with
>them.  They are seemingly willing to sell utensils that contain (if your
>information above is accurate) antimony in  alloys very similar to those we are
>discussing.
>
>I must attend to work now, but will continue my research, probably early next
>week.
>
>Your not terribly humble nor particularly obedient but still grateful servant,
>
>Gary Bell
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Re: Tinning
Date: 16 Nov 1998 11:06:22 -0700

>To: [e-mail]

>Your post to the Mountain Man list about antimony being toxic has caused
>serious consternation here, and I'm hoping you can help clear it up. A quick
>check confirmed that, yes, antimony is toxic. The problem is that we already
>have a number of pots tinned with the 95/5 Sn/Sb solder mentioned earlier. So,
>we went to our friendly neighborhood metal alloyer to get pure tin to tin
future
>pots. We also asked about Britannia metal for pouring spoons. To make a long
>story short, Britannia metal and pewter used in making plates, mugs, etc.
>consist, generally, of 91% tin, 7.5% antimony, and 1.5% copper. So now we
>don't know what to make of this toxicity issue. Can you help?

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: powder
Date: 16 Nov 1998 09:01:17 +0100

Ditto on the message about powder granulations in
the "old days."  American fur Company records from
the 1830s contain listings of powder in
granulations designated by the number of "Fs".
They also include references to "common" and
"best" powder.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing question
Date: 16 Nov 1998 10:53:02 EST

Hello Everyone!

=09I am interested in information regarding the range of "tailoring" talen=
ts,
techniques, fabrics, materials, details, etc., of mountain men past and
present.  Would it be correct to assume that most MtMen sewed some, if not
all, of their own garments?  If so, what materials did they use, construct=
ion
techniques, and embellishments, other?  What special characteristics are f=
ound
in the MtMan=92s "wardrobe" which makes it particularly serviceable,
interesting, appealing, unique?  What are the clothing items specific to t=
he
MtMan?  When the Mt.Man=92s garments are examined, were any hidden pockets=
 or
compartments found, or any other interesting details?

=09I am looking forward to your replies as I am sure many of you are very
knowledgeable in this area.  Thank you very much.

Best regards,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: William Branson
Date: 16 Nov 1998 02:52:42 EST

I saw what you wrote concerning William Branson, who is also my ancestor.  Try
the site for more on the Bransons:  http://www.patpnyc.com

Emi Bryan



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 16 Nov 1998 15:52:26 -0600 (CST)

>While on the subject of black powder, does anyone have firm safety rules for
>loading and firing a swivel gun?  With and without a projectile? Are there
>such rules that survive from the period?  I can think of the obvious, but I
>would hate to be around when something not so obvious happens.  Maybe we
>have been too lax.
>
>Iron Burner


Check with the National Park Service, Ordinance Department.  They have
standard procedures for working with artillery pieces, emphasising safety
and authenticity.  Seek their advice for safe handling of all types of BP
artillery.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Richard D Heyen)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 16 Nov 1998 21:18:34 -0600

The various grades of powder came with the invention of corned powder (as
opposed to serpentine powder) in the early 1400's. Serpentine powder is
made by mixing nitre,brimstone, and charecoal together in the desired
quantities. In the 15th century it was discovered that by mixing the same
ingredience wet them drying them in cakes which were crumbled and sifted
through various grades of screens, a powder was made that was 9 times as
powerful as serpentine, not as suseptable to moisture in the air, and
didn't seperate back in to its componants when transported. Generaly the
four grades (fine,medium, course, and extra course) are the same as the
powder you use today. The only major difference between modern Bp and
historical is the process where they roll moder powder on graphite to
prevent static electricity.

                        Master Gunner of The
Texas Renaisance Festival
                        Drew Heyen

Drew Heyen
[e-mail]
Phone-[phone]

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:27:55 -0800 Dennis Fisher
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Henry B. Crawford wrote:
>
>> >I find it hard to believe that there were 4 grades of powder
>> >back then.
>> >Any ideas?
>
>Besides the four grades of rifle powder, there were various grades of
>blasting
>powder and cannon powder.  I'll try and dig out some of my old
>references and
>see what I can find.  Before the days of dynamite, black powder was
>the only
>commercial blasting agent available.
>
>                      Dennis
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing question
Date: 16 Nov 1998 19:05:05 -0800 (PST)

Welcome Andrea

I see you figured out the instructions on how to join the list :)

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Swivel Guns
Date: 16 Nov 1998 21:36:04 EST

In a message dated 11/15/98 9:49:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< While on the subject of black powder, does anyone have firm safety rules
for
 loading and firing a swivel gun?  With and without a projectile? >>
YEAH, THERE ARE 2 RULES:

RULE 1. SWIVEL IT THE OTHER WAY...... <GGG>
RULE 2. SEE RULE 1.
                            yhs, SHOOTZ HIMSELF (a voice of experience)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing question
Date: 16 Nov 1998 17:36:29 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pimout1-int.prodigy.net id MOVED1UAA39280

That's Right Andrea jump right in and get your feet wet good friend.  All
these people need is a subject and look out.  Later Jon T.    =20

----------

Hello Everyone!

    I am interested in information regarding the range of "tailoring" talent=
s,
techniques, fabrics, materials, details, etc., of mountain men past and
present.  Would it be correct to assume that most MtMen sewed some, if no=
t
all, of their own garments?  If so, what materials did they use,
construction
techniques, and embellishments, other?  What special characteristics are
found
in the MtMan=92s "wardrobe" which makes it particularly serviceable,
interesting, appealing, unique?  What are the clothing items specific to
the
MtMan?  When the Mt.Man=92s garments are examined, were any hidden pocket=
s or
compartments found, or any other interesting details?

    I am looking forward to your replies as I am sure many of you are very
knowledgeable in this area.  Thank you very much.

Best regards,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
[e-mail]

----------

------=_NextPart_000_01BE1187.A4F79A20
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">That's Right Andrea jump right in and =
get your feet wet good friend.  All these people need is a subject =
and look out.  Later Jon T. =
    <br><br>----------<br>From: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing =
question<br>Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 7:53 AM<br><br>Hello =
Everyone!<br><br>	I am interested in information regarding the =
range of "tailoring" talents,<br>techniques, fabrics, =
materials, details, etc., of mountain men past and<br>present. =
 Would it be correct to assume that most MtMen sewed some, if =
not<br>all, of their own garments?  If so, what materials did they =
use, construction<br>techniques, and embellishments, other?  What =
special characteristics are found<br>in the MtMan=92s =
"wardrobe" which makes it particularly =
serviceable,<br>interesting, appealing, unique?  What are the =
clothing items specific to the<br>MtMan?  When the Mt.Man=92s =
garments are examined, were any hidden pockets or<br>compartments found, =
or any other interesting details?<br><br>	I am looking forward to =
your replies as I am sure many of you are very<br>knowledgeable in this =
area.  Thank you very much.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Andrea Moore, =
Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company<br><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br><br>----------<br><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BE1187.A4F79A20--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "baird.rick" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Where's Dr. Shakey
Date: 16 Nov 1998 16:29:00 -0700

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BE11B9.6D8F1370
Content-Type: text/plain

List Subscribers,
I am looking for Dr. Shakey.  He makes canvas goodies and I need a new
lodge.  Anyone got any ideas where he is now?  Thanks in advance.
Taos

------_=_NextPart_001_01BE11B9.6D8F1370
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<TITLE>Where's Dr. Shakey</TITLE>
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<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>List Subscribers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I am looking for Dr. Shakey.  He makes canvas =
goodies and I need a new lodge.  Anyone got any ideas where he is =
now?  Thanks in advance.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Taos</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01BE11B9.6D8F1370--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: I didn't say that (aka Black Powder)
Date: 16 Nov 1998 08:40:33 -0600 (CST)

>Henry B. Crawford wrote:
>
>> >I find it hard to believe that there were 4 grades of powder
>> >back then.
>> >Any ideas?
>
>Besides the four grades of rifle powder, there were various grades of blasting
>powder and cannon powder.  I'll try and dig out some of my old references and
>see what I can find.  Before the days of dynamite, black powder was the only
>commercial blasting agent available.
>
>                      Dennis


Excuse me, but I didn't write that.  I was replying to someone else's
query.  You failed to include my reply, which adds to confusion.  Please be
careful when you attribute statements to people.

Thanks,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 15 Nov 1998 21:42:37 -0800

Bob Spencer wrote:

> the same three main granulations we do, plus cannon powder, and they had
> glazed powder.

Isn't that how duPont made his fortune, he invented the glazing process
that made a very superior powder?
            Dale Nelson



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 1998 08:45:20 -0600

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Somebody, I forget who, recently posted me and included the address of a =
webpage that included the letter I wrote giving advice to newcomers.  I =
accidently deleted the message before noting the address so would =
whoever sent it to me please send it again?  Thanks.
Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1206.9BF549C0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
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<HEAD>

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Somebody, I forget who, recently =
posted me and=20
included the address of a webpage that included the letter I wrote =
giving advice=20
to newcomers.  I accidently deleted the message before noting the =
address=20
so would whoever sent it to me please send it again?  =
Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Lanney Ratcliff</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HT=
ML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Where's Dr. Shakey
Date: 17 Nov 1998 03:28:34 EST

In a message dated 98-11-17 00:22:59 EST, you write:

<< I am looking for Dr. Shakey.  He makes canvas goodies and I need a new
 lodge.  Anyone got any ideas where he is now?  >>


Since his divorce, he's been a bit foot loose & hard to keep up with.  Last
address we have for him is:

Alan Reed
P.O. Box 478
Aberdeen, Idaho 83210

Phone # [phone]

It's my understanding this is his brother's place, so hopefully, if he's not
still there, it'll get forwarded.  If all else fails & with a bit of luck,
we'll see him at our rondy in Feb.  He DOES make some fine canvas goods!

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: aluminum
Date: 17 Nov 1998 11:57:08 EST

In a message dated 98-11-08 18:38:55 EST, you write:

<< The only attributed cookware of George Washington's, I am aware of, is
 pictured
 in "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution"=A0
 George C.
 Neumann and Frank J. Kravic=A0 ISBN 0-8117-0394-0
  >>
If you ever get in the Detroit area go to the Henry Ford Museum they have=
 a
mess kit that George Washington used and his folding iron and canvas bed.
Both were a present from a french general and both were used by him durin=
g the
rev war.  Buy the way the mess kit has silver, china and crystal. =20

Your humble servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: paul mueller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing question
Date: 17 Nov 1998 11:14:15 -0500

JON P TOWNS wrote:
>=20
> That's Right Andrea jump right in and get your feet wet good friend.
>  All these people need is a subject and look out.  Later Jon T.
>=20
> ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing question
> Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 7:53 AM
>=20
> Hello Everyone!
>=20
> I am interested in information regarding the range of "tailoring"
> talents,
> techniques, fabrics, materials, details, etc., of mountain men past
> and
> present.  Would it be correct to assume that most MtMen sewed some, if
> not
> all, of their own garments?  If so, what materials did they use,
> construction
> techniques, and embellishments, other?  What special characteristics
> are found
> in the MtMan=92s "wardrobe" which makes it particularly serviceable,
> interesting, appealing, unique?  What are the clothing items specific
> to the
> MtMan?  When the Mt.Man=92s garments are examined, were any hidden
> pockets or
> compartments found, or any other interesting details?
>=20
> I am looking forward to your replies as I am sure many of you are very
> knowledgeable in this area.  Thank you very much.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
> [e-mail]
>=20
> ----------

  don't forget what a rendezvous was for. traders with all types of
goods from over seas and from the eastern states. alot of staples and
clothing.look at records from the hudson bay co on what they traded. one
of the first things the trappers did was get a bath cloth pants then
drunk.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: floor cloth
Date: 17 Nov 1998 08:24:30 +0100

there was a question yesterday about the meaning
of "floor cloth" in the context of trousers.  The
short answer is that I don't have a documented
answer.  I remember when we found the floor cloth
trousers, but we were unable to identify the
fabric.  I have checked a couple of standard
sources (my main one is "Textiles in America")
with no luck.
However, I can venture a guess that it was a type
of heavier canvas material, either cotton or
linen.  "Floor cloths" were pieces of heavier
canvas that were painted with designs, heavily
seized, and were used in the place of rugs for
floor coverings.  Therefore, there is a
possibility that the base fabric for these
projects was referred to as "floor cloth" and used
for pants.  Other canvas materials such as ravens
duck and Russia sheeting were relatively commonly
used for pants in the early 19th century.
Sorry I can't give a more complete answer.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing question
Date: 17 Nov 1998 16:12:44 EST

In a message dated 11/17/98 12:24:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< look at records from the hudson bay co >>

    How can I view these (above mention) records?  Thank you, Andrea



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:
Date: 18 Nov 1998 01:33:05 GMT

On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:45:20 -0600, you wrote:

>Somebody, I forget who, recently posted me and included the address of a=
 webpage that included the letter I wrote giving advice to newcomers.  I =
accidently deleted the message before noting the address so would whoever=
 sent it to me please send it again?  Thanks.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>[e-mail]

Lanny, this is probably not the post you're looking for, but there's a
writeup on http:/sat.net/~robenhaus that details stuff for beginners.
This site has been up for more than a year, and the article is much
older than that.
Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: KEN SMITH <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: fur trade rifle for sale
Date: 18 Nov 1998 14:09:06

for sale:
1800-1820's J.Dickert Lancaster style rifle.
54 cal. coned muzzle, L&R Dickert flintlock converted
to percussion w/ period correct drum.
bbl & stock shortened to 32". single trigger.
curly maple stock, brass hardware, engraved daisyhead patchbox.
could easily be conv. back to flint with L&R Dickert flintlock.
very fast lock & accurate. have good loading data.
$800.00
Ken Smith
2910 Glade Rd.
Loveland, Co. 80538
970-663-3465
[e-mail]
KEN SMITH
ELECTRICAL DESIGNER
HACH CO.
5600 LINDBERGH DR.
LOVELAND, CO. 80537-8998
970-669-3050 X2660
FAX [phone]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing question
Date: 18 Nov 1998 08:33:14 -0700

>In a message dated 11/17/98 12:24:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><< look at records from the hudson bay co >>
>
>    How can I view these (above mention) records?  Thank you, Andrea

Andrea, If one of the AMM men would look in their T&LRs for a short letter
I sent in about two years ago and see what the e-mail address is for the
Hudson Bay Co. information site, I am sure you could contact that address
and get what ever info you are looking for.  I would find it myself but all
my magazines are packed away in storage right now.      Longtrail



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing question
Date: 19 Nov 1998 10:34:33 EST

In a message dated 11/18/98 9:03:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Andrea, If one of the AMM men would look in their T&LRs for a short letter
 I sent in about two years ago and see what the e-mail address is for the
 Hudson Bay Co. information site, I am sure you could contact that address
 and get what ever info you are looking for. >>

Dear Longtrail and others,

    Thank you very much for above mention . . . hint, hint AMM men.

Regards,
Andrea



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing question
Date: 19 Nov 1998 22:21:39 +0000

Andrea, e-mail address is     [e-mail]       from Vol 21
#3 T & LR pg 2  by snowbird    , hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:40:15 -0600

can be a real ass on request or if the need arises---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:38:24 EST [e-mail] writes:
>opinionated, harsh, elitist....... he's all of those and more. God
>bless the
>mountain man.
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:21:55 -0600

concure with withdrawals---need to get some of the same stuff longwalker
is on ---might mellow me in my old age---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:57:29 EST [e-mail] writes:
>LongWalker c. du B. and elitist bastard writes:
>>  (I'd like to thank the Academy...I've always aspired to this
>award...I'll
>>  do my best to live up to my understanding of what this means to
>me...I
>>  never thought I'd receive this title so early in life...)
>
>Hey Jim,
>
>Your withdrawal from those prescription pain killers is starting to
>show.  You
>must almost be back in full form.  <VBG>
>
>OldFox
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun
Date: 01 Jan 1998 02:04:17 -0600

let me join you too---

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:33:47 -0600 Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
writes:
>   >>I happen to highly suspect that I will be recieving a Cabella gun
>   >>for Christmas.  Sure, who wouldn't want a handmade, custom gun to
>   >>"brag on". Having raised 2 boys on my own with little extra cash,
>   >>I just feel damned lucky to be getting any gun at all.
>   >>When I go to my next Rendez.  I will be sure to camp on the other
>   >>side of the tracks.
>   >>LOL!!!
>   >>Red Hawk
>   >I think we'll be there together, me with my CVAs.  :-)
>   >Cheers,
>   >HBC
>Hey Guys(and Gal),just out of principle,I'll join ya over there!
>Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>
>SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle
>
>Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:36:46 -0600

jd---i shoot 3f in everything i own and adjust the charge accordingly---i
know a lot will say you need 2f for 50 and above but have found better
and quicker ignition with  using 3 f and will continue to meet my
faith---hammer me at will---I like my 3 f
even shoot it in my .730 ---bear gun.

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:45:27 -0600 [e-mail] writes:
>Greetings, Wise Ones and others,
>Along the shooting line I heard a skinner claim that he liked to shoot
>fff in his 54 cal.  I, being the novice, asked why.  He claimed that
>it
>shot cleaner and he used less powder.
>Is this a good idea?
>I know that fff creates more pressure in small cal. rifles.  I would
>assume that it would be the same in a large bore.
>Historically, what was the grade of the powder used by the early
>explorers?  I find it hard to believe that there were 4 grades of
>powder
>back then.
>Any ideas?
>
>Thanks for your time and thoughts.
>
>Pilgrim JD
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 00:48:07 -0600

steve I even own one of those tompsom centers---it is a good shooter and
is very dependable---i bought it in about 1968 and it was the best on the
market at that time ---have gone to custom guns or originals since and
can say the tompson was not bad but it's not a hawkins----
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:49:41 EST [e-mail] writes:
>Well Hawk,  I can only think that most people don't have a hell of
>alot of
>money to go and buy the good stuff. Pretty hard to beat a Thompson
>Center
>Hawken (not even close, but a good little shooter) until ya can beg,
>borrow,
>or steal, to get a good gun..... At least you're burnin black powder!
>Steve
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:02:09 -0600

thanks for the support longwalker---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:24:43 -0600 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>At 02:07 AM 11/10/98 EST, you wrote:
>>bless you Longwalker. 'bout damn time somebody said it like it is.
>there are
>>LOTS of accurate (in more ways than one)  quality rifles out there in
>the
>>price range mentioned, especially in the white, but Cabela's, T/C and
>Lyman
>>ain't among them.
>    Thanks, but Hawk has been railing against 'em forever.  I'm
>just tired of
>people saying "I got this great deal on this really authentic gun but
>its
>broke".
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: House of Muskets
Date: 01 Jan 1998 02:01:15 -0600

please contact me off-line i would like to be added to your list of
resources and such---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:59:01 EST [e-mail] writes:
>Shootz Himself writes:
>> Johnny (and the rest of the list), This link is to a page called
>shooters
>>  resources, and has address info for almost all of the BP gun makers
>and
>>  supplies outfits you can think of, including House of Muskets.
>
>Thanks for the plug.  I'm glad somebody looks at it after all the work
>I put
>into gathering up all those sources.  I have about 30 more to add if I
>ever
>get around to it.
>
>OldFox
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:10:02 -0600

if you need any help contact me off line or give me a telecon and i will
be glad to provide you any help possible---no bs and no panty hose---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:15:44 GMT [e-mail] (Mike Haught)
writes:
>Thanks for the many comments and suggestions.  Even the rather blunt
>responses gave me a chuckle as well as bringing the point home.
>
>I had been looking off and on at the Blue Ridge rifles (Cabella's)
>while also looking at some Jaeger and Kentucky/Pennsylvania kits
>offered by other folks ( Golden Age Firearms being one). =20
>
>After hearing you all, I got very convinced to go with the kit.   I'll
>just have to work slow and careful and seek a little advice from time
>to time.
>
>Now Since I will be reenacting my anscestors who came over from
>Germany in the 1750s, I just have to figure out if I want to go with
>the Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle or the Jaeger!  I know they used both
>of these in hunting and skirmishes.
>
>
>    -mwh
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flinters
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:31:38 -0600

that is the only address i know also---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:31:54 EST [e-mail] writes:
>In a message dated 98-11-08 23:19:23 EST, you write:
>
><< Does anyone know of a cyber address for NorthStar West? >>
>
>To the best of my knowledge, they're not on line.  Snail address is:
>
>North Star West
>P.O. Box 488
>Glencoe, CA 95232
>
>Office phone # 1- [phone]
>Shop phone # 1- [phone]
>
>Don't think they even have a fax yet.  I'd recomend calling the shop
>-- the
>old guy at the office sometimes gets things confused -- guess his
>health ain't
>the greatest.  I'd also recomend calling before the end of Nov -- Iron
>Jaw
>plays Santa Clause during Dec & production drops off to nearly
>nothing.
>
>If you have a copy of Oct Muzzle Blast handy, they have over 5 pages
>of web
>addresses that are related to our sport/hobby/madness/addiction.
>North Star
>isn't listed there either.  Wish they WERE on line -- I need a new
>frizen for
>my trade gun!
>
>NM
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:27:56 -0600

I get the junker in by the truck load to make a silk purse out of a sows
ear---and it darn sure don't happen---but ever once and a while i can do
majic like redirect them to something that is worth putting in the gun
rack---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:01:27 -0500 "Fred A. Miller"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Jim Colburn wrote:
>>
>> Washtahay-
>> At 02:07 AM 11/10/98 EST, you wrote:
>> >bless you Longwalker. 'bout damn time somebody said it like it is.
>there are
>> >LOTS of accurate (in more ways than one)  quality rifles out there
>in the
>> >price range mentioned, especially in the white, but Cabela's, T/C
>and Lyman
>> >ain't among them.
>>         Thanks, but Hawk has been railing against 'em forever.  I'm
>just tired of
>> people saying "I got this great deal on this really authentic gun
>but its
>> broke".
>
>Yeah....and I'm tired of fixing the cotton pickin things for people
>who
>didn't take my recommendation and buy something better in the first
>place!
>
>Fred
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:20:43 -0600

longwalker please send me one of the same awards---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:58:18 -0600 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>some time back I wrote:
>>   >Whoopee.  If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job
>and
>>   >wait til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have
>>   >gotten a decent gun.
>>   >LongWalker c. du B.
>
>And at 11:17 AM 11/10/98 -0600, someone wrote:
>>WELL NOW ARE WE TO BECOME THE ELITIST BASTARDS THAT DO NOT WANT NEW
>COMMERS
>>TO JOIN?
>    Hmmm...if being an elitist bastard means not wanting to shoot
>next to
>folks with guns with hammers that creep and fire from half- or
>full-cock
>(seen at Cabelas) or guns with gas leaks at the breech (a CVA
>"Squirrel
>Rifle" I bought for my then new bride) or nipples that blow out in to
>space
>when fired (Lyman GPR, summer of '95, a couple T/Cs I have seen over
>the
>years) then yes, I want to be considered an "elitist bastard".  Having
>been
>born a bastard, I had a head start-some might consider it an unfair
>advantage.
>    So come on all, be an elitist bastard with me!  You will be
>expected to
>throw your shop open to folks who bought those less-than-satisfactory
>guns,
>to help repair them, and to teach their new owners the rules of
>firearms
>safety.  Your shop may well become the place new folks turn when they
>realize the only way they can afford a good gun (by their standards)
>is to
>build one, buying parts as they can afford them-this may mean your
>dining
>room, like mine, will have 6 rifles in various stages of cunstruction
>standing against the bookshelves.  It will mean teaching folks skills
>from
>tracking that deer they hit but didn't put down to tanning the hide to
>how
>to cook over an open fire.  It means being the same thing to the new
>guys
>today as it meant to the folks who got me started were to me.
>Frankly, I
>figure its a debt I owe.
>
>>its time a few wake up and realize that as you said,"pick up a
>>parttime job at minimum wage..." In my real life I commute 2 hours
>each
>>way,for a hell of a lot more than min.wage.
>    That's nice.  I have one full time job an hour east of here
>and another
>full time job an hour west of here.  So what?  If it meant the
>difference
>between compromising or getting what I want, I will find a way.  If
>that
>means I spend my day off every week working in a gas station for a
>couple
>months, I do it.   I guess some folks value their TV time more than
>others.
>
>>Nothing but an original is
>>truely authenic,but give the new commers a chance.
>    Back when I was getting started, I saw a guy wrap a CVA
>Kentucky around a
>tree.  Turns out he had spent the whole summer trying to get the thing
>to
>work.  I don't want the new guys of today to have to deal with that.
>I'm
>trying to give the new comers a chance to get started without the
>added
>handicap of a defective rifle.  Sorry that seems unreasonable to you.
>
>
>> My first muzzleloader was a CVA(still have
>>it,still shoots straight,and I  killed 9 deer with it)
>    My last CVA is the "Squirrel Rifle" that turned my ex-wife off
>shooting.
>Something about the way smoke came out from under the lockplate...
>According to CVA, all I had to do was buy a new barrel-at a cost equal
>to
>the cost of the gun-to fix a manufacturer's defect.  Seems easier to
>just
>avoid the crap in the first place.
>
>> So lets not give a
>>newcommer a hard time because he cannot afford a custom gun(in time
>he will
>>find a way to get one any way!)lets welcome him and help educate.
>    You seem to have the mistaken notion that my dislike of poor
>quality guns
>extends to their owners.  This is not the case.  But I am not going to
>lie
>and tell someone their gun is authentic in appearance when it isn't,
>or say
>it is safe when its not.  If someone is going to buy a sub-$300
>production
>rifle, at least let him buy one that won't injure him or someone else.
>
>
>LongWalker c. du B. and elitist bastard
>(I'd like to thank the Academy...I've always aspired to this
>award...I'll
>do my best to live up to my understanding of what this means to me...I
>never thought I'd receive this title so early in life...)
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:19:21 -0600

I bees one of those too-----

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:58:18 -0600 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>some time back I wrote:
>>   >Whoopee.  If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job
>and
>>   >wait til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have
>>   >gotten a decent gun.
>>   >LongWalker c. du B.
>
>And at 11:17 AM 11/10/98 -0600, someone wrote:
>>WELL NOW ARE WE TO BECOME THE ELITIST BASTARDS THAT DO NOT WANT NEW
>COMMERS
>>TO JOIN?
>    Hmmm...if being an elitist bastard means not wanting to shoot
>next to
>folks with guns with hammers that creep and fire from half- or
>full-cock
>(seen at Cabelas) or guns with gas leaks at the breech (a CVA
>"Squirrel
>Rifle" I bought for my then new bride) or nipples that blow out in to
>space
>when fired (Lyman GPR, summer of '95, a couple T/Cs I have seen over
>the
>years) then yes, I want to be considered an "elitist bastard".  Having
>been
>born a bastard, I had a head start-some might consider it an unfair
>advantage.
>    So come on all, be an elitist bastard with me!  You will be
>expected to
>throw your shop open to folks who bought those less-than-satisfactory
>guns,
>to help repair them, and to teach their new owners the rules of
>firearms
>safety.  Your shop may well become the place new folks turn when they
>realize the only way they can afford a good gun (by their standards)
>is to
>build one, buying parts as they can afford them-this may mean your
>dining
>room, like mine, will have 6 rifles in various stages of cunstruction
>standing against the bookshelves.  It will mean teaching folks skills
>from
>tracking that deer they hit but didn't put down to tanning the hide to
>how
>to cook over an open fire.  It means being the same thing to the new
>guys
>today as it meant to the folks who got me started were to me.
>Frankly, I
>figure its a debt I owe.
>
>>its time a few wake up and realize that as you said,"pick up a
>>parttime job at minimum wage..." In my real life I commute 2 hours
>each
>>way,for a hell of a lot more than min.wage.
>    That's nice.  I have one full time job an hour east of here
>and another
>full time job an hour west of here.  So what?  If it meant the
>difference
>between compromising or getting what I want, I will find a way.  If
>that
>means I spend my day off every week working in a gas station for a
>couple
>months, I do it.   I guess some folks value their TV time more than
>others.
>
>>Nothing but an original is
>>truely authenic,but give the new commers a chance.
>    Back when I was getting started, I saw a guy wrap a CVA
>Kentucky around a
>tree.  Turns out he had spent the whole summer trying to get the thing
>to
>work.  I don't want the new guys of today to have to deal with that.
>I'm
>trying to give the new comers a chance to get started without the
>added
>handicap of a defective rifle.  Sorry that seems unreasonable to you.
>
>
>> My first muzzleloader was a CVA(still have
>>it,still shoots straight,and I  killed 9 deer with it)
>    My last CVA is the "Squirrel Rifle" that turned my ex-wife off
>shooting.
>Something about the way smoke came out from under the lockplate...
>According to CVA, all I had to do was buy a new barrel-at a cost equal
>to
>the cost of the gun-to fix a manufacturer's defect.  Seems easier to
>just
>avoid the crap in the first place.
>
>> So lets not give a
>>newcommer a hard time because he cannot afford a custom gun(in time
>he will
>>find a way to get one any way!)lets welcome him and help educate.
>    You seem to have the mistaken notion that my dislike of poor
>quality guns
>extends to their owners.  This is not the case.  But I am not going to
>lie
>and tell someone their gun is authentic in appearance when it isn't,
>or say
>it is safe when its not.  If someone is going to buy a sub-$300
>production
>rifle, at least let him buy one that won't injure him or someone else.
>
>
>LongWalker c. du B. and elitist bastard
>(I'd like to thank the Academy...I've always aspired to this
>award...I'll
>do my best to live up to my understanding of what this means to me...I
>never thought I'd receive this title so early in life...)
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Cabelas Flintlock"
Date: 01 Jan 1998 02:17:10 -0600

you forgot your supporters---and of course ass holes like me---

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:35:18 -0600 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>    I must say, I have enjoyed the many off-list replies to my
>comments in
>Re:Cabelas Flintlock".  To save myself time, I am replying to the
>list.
>    Generally speaking, the replies to me have fallen into three
>categories:
>1. Death threats; 2. Comments on my perceived masculinity (or lack
>thereof); and 3. Personal attacks.  Responses follow.
>    Death threats.  I request you guys get together and do this in
>groups of
>three, I could use the entertainment.  Please do do this while I am
>alone-my friends will insist I share.  And no, the day will never come
>when
>you see me  unarmed.
>    Comments on my perceived masculinity (or lack thereof).  Ask
>your mothers,
>sisters, wives, and daughters-they all say I do it better than you.
>    Personal attacks:  Grow up.  One of the more literate examples
>is at the
>bottom of this post, along with my response.
>    I can't believe the emotional investment people seem to have
>in their
>decision to purchase a particular firearm!  Simply because someone
>disagrees with you is no reason to threaten to "cach you at a dondy
>and cut
>you r face off".  If you are happy with the weapon you have chosen,
>great-I
>am happy for you.  But when you say "its a great gun, I only had to
>fix
>this, that, and the other thing" you are acknowledging that the weapon
>you
>chose is not adequate for the purpose for which you purchased it.  You
>did
>buy that rifle to SHOOT didn't you?
>    I am at a loss as to how to respond when someone insists that
>their rifle
>is "authentic" when even the manufacturer acknowledges that it is not
>an
>accurate reproduction and was never intended to be one.  I have to
>believe
>this person is joking.  Surely no one would demonstrate their
>ignorance in
>such a manner, would they?
>    Have a nice evening.  I get to figure out how to set a filter
>in this
>e-mail program...
>LongWalker c. du B., etc
>
>One of the more literate replies received off list, and my response:
>>>Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:09:49 -0600
>>>From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
>>>
>>>What do you consider full time? My day is 16 hours long counting the
>>>commute. And I do not have time for TV. I believe you admitted to
>buying a
>>>"cheap" gun for your ex, what happened she get tired of your
>obsession?
>>>So with working 2 "full time jobs" and working at a gas station on
>the week
>>>ends,when do you have time to go to rendezvous or on a trek
>>    Generally speaking, full time is considered to be 40+ hours
>per week.  I
>bought the CVA Squirrel Rifle for my wife when she stated she would
>like to
>have one to shoot-not because it was "cheap".  The reason for the
>divorce
>has nothing to do with what you suggest, but frankly it is none of
>your
>business.  I never said I am currently "working at a gas station on
>the
>week ends"-I suggested that as a possible way (one I have used in the
>past)
>to gain the money to acquire a more-desirable item.  When do I have
>time to
>go to rendezvous or on a trek?  You'll never know, we are selective
>about
>who we invite.
>    Having more entertaining ways to spend my time than responding
>to the
>demands of individuals with a mental age <5 years, no further messages
>on
>this subject will be acknowledged.
>    Have a nice day.
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 00:35:26 -0600

recommend you add about 200.00 dollars and you could have one of danny
caywoods preassembled kits---then with about 10 or 12 hrs you have a
better than average gun that will do what you want---depending if you
want a smooth bore or a rifled gun---pecatonica river will supply parts
of good quality with a precarve for about 500---to 600 depending on what
style you want in kit form---will require a small amount of inletting and
some work most non craftsmen can even assemble and put into order contact
me off line or give me a call and we can discuss this further---need to
know if you want a finished rifle or a kit or a pre-assembled rifle which
will require you to finish---

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:37:47 GMT [e-mail] (Mike Haught)
writes:
>Well, let's say $500 is in my price range right now.
>
>    -mwh
>
>On Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:35:54 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>what is your price range that will deturmine what you will be able to
>>buy---let me know your price range and i will give you a list of
>makers
>>that make kits or semifinished guns or complete guns---a bunch of
>good
>>ones out there and a bunch of junk---dont scrimp on the lock and the
>>barrel---that is the heart of the muzzle loader---
>>
>>HAWK
>>MICHAEL PIERCE
>>1-813-771-1815
>>E-MAIL ADDRESS=3D=[e-mail]
>>
>>On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 22:13:10 -0500 "Fred A. Miller"
>><[e-mail]> writes:
>>>Mike Haught wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's
>>>> flintlock.  I have considered purchasing this gun for my first
>>>> flinter.
>>>>=20
>>>> I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be=20
>>>historically
>>>> accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler
>of=20
>>>the
>>>> 1780s through 1810.
>>>>=20
>>>> I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here
>whether=20
>>>this
>>>> gun would be a good first time flinter purchase.
>>>
>>>It's NOT, IMHO.  You'd be MUCH better off with a "Cumberland"
>from=20
>>>Deer
>>>Creek's Wilderness Rifle Works line, which, by the way is
>semi-custom
>>>hand-made, NOT production firearms from Italy like those from
>Cabelas.=20
>>>
>>>Cut rifleing, curly maple stocks (NOT euorpean walnut or some
>odd-ball
>>>wood), a properly designed and made lock, triggers, etc., are
>quality
>>>accuratly reproduced items from good gun makers.  Quality doesn't
>cost
>>>that much more.  Contact Bob at Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading for
>data=20
>>>and
>>>prices.  E-mail address is: [e-mail].
>>>
>>>Best,
>>>
>>>Fred
>>>
>>>
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
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>
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:15:54 -0600

I have never given a new commer a hard time about his equipment only
suggested that he buy the best quality he can afford---junk is junk and
quality is quality----remember some of the pilgrems arn't shooters only
traders and such---but they need to learn what quality is and where and
how it is produced----END OF SUBJECT---

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:17:17 -0600 Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
writes:
>   >>Haven't priced them via Shotgun News recently, but you
>   >>used to be able (6-12 months ago) to get the flint kit for around
>   >>$230 as I recall.
>   >Whoopee.  If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job and
>   >wait til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have
>   >gotten a decent gun.
>   >LongWalker c. du B.
>WELL NOW ARE WE TO BECOME THE ELITIST BASTARDS THAT DO NOT WANT NEW
>COMMERS
>TO JOIN? its time a few wake up and realize that as you said,"pick up
>a
>parttime job at minimum wage..." In my real life I commute 2 hours
>each
>way,for a hell of a lot more than min.wage. Nothing but an original is
>truely authenic,but give the new commers a chance. When I started in
>the 70's
>it wasn't just being ridiculisly perfectly accurate that got a pilgrim
>into
>camp;it was the attempt and desire to learn! NOT EVERONE CAN AFFORD A
>CUSTOM
>GUN OR THE BEST PRODUCTION MODEL,but if he's willing to make the
>attempt to
>LOOK PERIOD CORRECT(and not show up with one of those damn inline bp
>burners) he's welcome in my camp. My first muzzleloader was a
>CVA(still have
>it,still shoots straight,and I  killed 9 deer with it),then I bought a
>Brown
>bess kit from someone and now am scratch building a Charlieville
>replica.
> I've hooked a few newcommers by lending that old CVA and teaching
>them how
>to shoot it,that have gone on to bigger and($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)better
>smokepoles than I have. Do I care? NO!!!!!!!!!!! So lets not give a
>newcommer a hard time because he cannot afford a custom gun(in time he
>will
>find a way to get one any way!)lets welcome him and help educate.
>Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well
>
>"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698
>
>Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:06:48 -0600

good input ---shoots-him-self----quality is quality and junk is
junk---pick your trash or treasure---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:07:31 EST [e-mail] writes:
>bless you Longwalker. 'bout damn time somebody said it like it is.
>there are
>LOTS of accurate (in more ways than one)  quality rifles out there in
>the
>price range mentioned, especially in the white, but Cabela's, T/C and
>Lyman
>ain't among them.  Try these links: <A
>HREF="http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/bp-
>parts.htm">Shooter's Resources</A>  <A
>HREF="http://www.avsia.com/tvm/">TVM
></A>  <A HREF="http://www.trackofthewolf.com/">Track of the Wolf,
>Inc.</A>
><A HREF="http://www.jpgunstocks.com/">JP Gunstocks, Inc.,
>Muzzleloading Rifles
>- Pistols - Smooth Bores</A>  <A
>HREF="http://www.logcabinshop.com/">Log Cabin
>Shop, Serving the Black Powder Community for Over 57 Years</A>. Also
>contact
>Deer Creek, Caywood, Cabin Creek, Narragansett, Pecatonica and others.
>Buy a
>Muzzleloader Magazine and call some makers. Even if their gun is too
>expensive, ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS, most of these people will give you
>honest
>answers and  help you get started the right way.   YHS,   Shootz
>Himself
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 00:57:00 -0600

darn---good posting---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:07:31 EST [e-mail] writes:
>bless you Longwalker. 'bout damn time somebody said it like it is.
>there are
>LOTS of accurate (in more ways than one)  quality rifles out there in
>the
>price range mentioned, especially in the white, but Cabela's, T/C and
>Lyman
>ain't among them.  Try these links: <A
>HREF="http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/bp-
>parts.htm">Shooter's Resources</A>  <A
>HREF="http://www.avsia.com/tvm/">TVM
></A>  <A HREF="http://www.trackofthewolf.com/">Track of the Wolf,
>Inc.</A>
><A HREF="http://www.jpgunstocks.com/">JP Gunstocks, Inc.,
>Muzzleloading Rifles
>- Pistols - Smooth Bores</A>  <A
>HREF="http://www.logcabinshop.com/">Log Cabin
>Shop, Serving the Black Powder Community for Over 57 Years</A>. Also
>contact
>Deer Creek, Caywood, Cabin Creek, Narragansett, Pecatonica and others.
>Buy a
>Muzzleloader Magazine and call some makers. Even if their gun is too
>expensive, ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS, most of these people will give you
>honest
>answers and  help you get started the right way.   YHS,   Shootz
>Himself
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: mt-man list:cabelas flintlock
Date: 01 Jan 1998 00:26:39 -0600

terry--
you learned a long hard lesson that will stick with you a long time soory
it was so expensive to learn and also the lost meat--the old big gun did
it's trick---filles all my tags again this year except for one more deer
tag an arkansas and heading nack and see what happens--for a original it
shoots to mark and is totally dependable----
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:17:27 -0800 "Terry Landis" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE0BF4.0FF82900
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>    charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>I bought a cabelas percussion used this year. not only is it heavy in
>the
>field, but due to the poor sites (which self adjust when you don't
>want them
>to! and the poor beach design which seems to misfire a lot.) I missed
>a 6
>point elk and several cows in 11 days worth of hunting. I personally
>bought
>a tvm Virginia style rifle in flint. the base price for their guns is
>about
>average to moderate, but several x-tras are available to really
>customize
>your gun to the way you want it. heres their URL
>http://www.avsia.com/tvm/
>
>check around before you buy as others have said junk is junk.  I
>looked long
>and hard before I bought mine, and aside from making your own- the
>best bet
>seems to be pay for what you get.
>
>Terry Landis
>
>Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a
>buckskiner and
>soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest!
>
>
>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE0BF4.0FF82900
>Content-Type: text/html;
>    charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
><HTML>
><HEAD>
>
><META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
>http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>Untitled Stationery</TITLE>
><META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
>face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
>size=3D3>I bought a cabelas percussion used this year. not only is it
>=
>heavy in the=20
>field, but due to the poor sites (which self adjust when you don't
>want =
>them to!=20
>and the poor beach design which seems to misfire a lot.) I missed a 6
>=
>point elk=20
>and several cows in 11 days worth of hunting. I personally bought a
>tvm =
>Virginia=20
>style rifle in flint. the base price for their guns is about average
>to=20
>moderate, but several x-tras are available to really customize your
>gun =
>to the=20
>way you want it. heres their URL  <A=20
>href=3D"http://www">http://www.</A>avsia.com/tvm/ </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
><DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
>face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
>size=3D3></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT =
>color=3D#000000=20
>face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D3>   </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
><DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
>face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
>size=3D3></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT =
>color=3D#000000=20
>face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D3>check around before you buy as =
>others have said=20
>junk is junk.  I looked long and hard before I bought mine, and =
>aside from=20
>making your own- the best bet seems to be pay for what you=20
>get.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
><DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
>face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
>size=3D3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
><DIV><SPAN class=3D140040423-09111998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
>face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
>size=3D3>Terry Landis</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
><DIV> </DIV><FONT face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D5>
><P>Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a =
>buckskiner and=20
>soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest!=20
><DIV></DIV>
><P></P></FONT>
><DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE0BF4.0FF82900--
>
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 00:55:51 -0600

concure with your post jim---have to sometime remember some of the list
dont know what a good rifle gun is----I shoot a original and she dran
sure makes meat and is always dependable---END OF SUBJECT----
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:24:00 -0600 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>
>someone  wrote:
>>If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about
>the
>best
>>of the inexpensive guns out there.  It is a very close copy of an
>original
>>Hawken and shoots darn well.
>    Horse apples!  Show me the Hawken that the Lyman Great Plains
>Rifle is a
>"very close copy of".  It ain't, and saying it is, or wishful
>thinking,
>doesn't make it so.
>
>and someone else wrote (apparently in reference to "Cabelas
>flintlock":
>>It's actually a copy of one of the originals.
>    One of the original WHAT?  One of those damn cheap misbegotten
>worthless
>copies of the T/C Hawken made in Italy back in the '70s?  An Ultra-HI
>"Minuteman Rifle"?  I guess you can say ANYTHING is a copy-but do you
>want
>to buy the "copy" of Ashley's signature I just did on the notepad by
>my
>computer?   Is anyone really going to think that its a particularly
>GOOD
>copy, when if you look you can plainly see I wrote "Willyum Hank
>Ashly"?
>    I get so damn tired of pussy-footing around to avoid hurting
>someone's
>feelings in Re: their rifles, so I ain't gonna do it any more.  Folks,
>if I
>attack your gun, it ain't personal.
>
>    Frankly, Cabelas gun isn't particularly authentic in
>appearance.  It isn't
>particularly well made, in comparison to a number of other weapons
>around-Lyman's GPR and the T/C Hawken to name two.  Neither of those
>is
>particularly authentic in appearance either-and anyone who really
>thinks so
>is demonstrating his or her ignorance-but I don't question the safety
>of
>them.  Their locks don't let go, tumbler notches creeping like both of
>the
>Cabelas flinters I have seen (and those were showroom models AT
>Cabelas!).
>I am particularly fearful of newbies with self-firing rifles!
>
>>IMHO, the frizzen
>>spring on the flinters I've seen is too stiff, but that's easily
>>corrected.
>    Mebbeso, if you know what you are doing.  How many greenhorns
>do?  And
>after they fix the feather spring, do they know how to re-harden the
>frizzen?  Re-cut the tumbler notches?  DO THEY KNOW ENOUGH TO TELL
>WHEN THE
>LOCK IS TOO WORN TO BE SAFE?????
>
>>Haven't priced them via Shotgun News recently, but you
>>used to be able (6-12 months ago) to get the flint kit for around
>$230
>>as I recall.
>    Whoopee.  If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job
>and wait
>til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have gotten a
>decent
>gun.
>
>>Good shooter, and much more authentic than anything else
>>I can think of in their price range.
>    How 'bout a rock?  Cheap.  Authentic.  And it'll be functional
>a long time
>after that (&%%&*&$^% is thrown away.
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford...
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:17:06 -0600

thanks for goof input sean bear----
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:18:49 -0500 "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Easy there... :))  I have been doing this (Ronnyvous and Reenactin)
>for 8
>years and BP shooting for about 20+ years... I started with a .50
>caliber
>Hawken "replica" that at the time cost me about $150 (around 1975).
>It was
>a TC knock off made in Spain. Still have it... great shooter and has
>brought
>down many deer...  Now, I own 2 custon rifles... a South Carolina
>Rifle, .45
>cal., (along the same lines as the Penna and Ky rifles, but has steel
>vs
>brass fixtures), and a Chiefs Trade Gun, .62 cal.    My point is that
>it
>took me along time to be able to afford a good custom made BP firearm.
>Start out with the best you can afford, and make sure it is the best
>you can
>get for that price.
>
>I also converted a Traditions Springfield Hawkens from a capper to a
>flinter... works great!!  Traditions said it couldn't be done...
>WRONG!!!
>hehe...  From what I have seen and shot, Traditions makes some pretty
>decent
>firearms.  Sure, every now and then you will get a lemon... but...
>then you
>make lemonade and go from there...
>
>Addison Miller
>aka SeanBear
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford...
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:51:13 -0600

good input cpt----concure--and support
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:23:46 -0800 Roger Lahti <[e-mail]> writes:
>Corey,
>
>You just saw Tom Crooks refer to them as "Dixie Junk Works". There is
>a reason for this sentiment and I agree with him.
>Now I am sure that Dixie may have some things that are not available
>from someone else but with this outfit you really
>have to be careful just as we have been trying to advise the newer
>members of our fraternity to be very careful when they
>think they are going to get into this sport for very little money.
>Buyer beware! I personally think the advise 'to save
>for the best you can afford and then save some more' is the only way
>to go. Going inexpensive will often cost you more in
>lost function and reliability and surely in satisfaction than you
>saved. Then too, Dixie is not a cheap place to buy
>things "muzzle loading". They are very proud of their "stuff". Did
>this help? I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Corey Tretteen wrote:
>
>> In all of these messages, I haven't seen anyone refer to Dixie Gun
>Works.   Are they not a good company to deal with?
>>
>
>
>
>
>

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From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 01 Jan 1998 00:50:06 -0600

concure its a good quality or average quality plains rifle---good to hunt
with and fairly dependable---it can be procured in kit form and finished
to your likes----
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:00:01 -0800 Frank <[e-mail]> writes:
>If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about
>the best
>of the inexpensive guns out there.  It is a very close copy of an
>original
>Hawken and shoots darn well.  You can remove the bluing of the
>finished gun and
>then brown the metal or build it from a kit and make it look right.
>For $300.00
>I don't think it can be beat!  Personal preference prevails here but a
>gun worth
>mentioning.
>
>Medicine Bear
>(yes, new e-mail address for those who know me)
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Well Hawk,  I can only think that most people don't have a hell of
>alot of
>> money to go and buy the good stuff. Pretty hard to beat a Thompson
>Center
>> Hawken (not even close, but a good little shooter) until ya can beg,
>borrow,
>> or steal, to get a good gun..... At least you're burnin black
>powder!
>> Steve
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford...
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:48:12 -0600

I use dixie only on a last resort yet if you know what you want they are
the only ones around that have some of your needs---don't buy guns
---usually overpriced---turner was a hell of a horse trader and a wheeler
dealer and it stuck---never came out ahead unless i knew exactly what i
wanted or needed---still a trader---remember that---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:29:27 -0800 Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
writes:
>In all of these messages, I haven't seen anyone refer to Dixie Gun
>Works.   Are they not a good company to deal with?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:38:46 -0600

have killed 4 deer this year with my 54 and she shoots 78 gr of 3f---and
has shot that for as long as i can remember---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:14:43 -0800 Frank <[e-mail]> writes:
>JD,
>
>I'm sure glad you included "others",  I've been called a smart ass but
>never
>a "wise one"!
>I shoot fff in my 54 but right off I'd like to say I have a custom gun
>with
>an expensive american made barrel.  My load is 70gr and I personally
>wouldn't go over 90gr with fff.  That's just my opinion for myself and
>this
>particular gun.  That load gives me very good accuracy and does allow
>me to
>shoot quite a number of shots without being hard to load.  At the end
>of the
>day it isn't as dirty as with ff, but the reason I shoot fff is
>because it
>just shoots better for me!
>I sure wouldn't use fff in any "inexpensive" gun as defined by all the
>emotional textual commentary recently seen on this list.  With any
>gun/load,
>work your way up to an accurate load slowly, starting with
>approximately the
>same number of grains as the caliber i.e.: 50gr for 50 cal etc.
>Again, that's just my opinion and in great fear and trembling of the
>wrathful disdain of the "wise ones" I humbly submit this reply.
>SHEESH!
>
>Medicine Bear
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Greetings, Wise Ones and others,
>> Along the shooting line I heard a skinner claim that he liked to
>shoot
>> fff in his 54 cal.  I, being the novice, asked why.  He claimed that
>it
>> shot cleaner and he used less powder.
>> Is this a good idea?
>> I know that fff creates more pressure in small cal. rifles.  I would
>> assume that it would be the same in a large bore.
>> Historically, what was the grade of the powder used by the early
>> explorers?  I find it hard to believe that there were 4 grades of
>powder
>> back then.
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> Thanks for your time and thoughts.
>>
>> Pilgrim JD
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 21 Nov 1998 21:53:19 -0700

Have shot 3F for years from .32 cal to .72 cal, rifled and smooth bore, use
the same powder for priming. Shoot round ball, buck and ball or just shot
with varied powder charges. Nice to only carry one horn for everything. Good
ignition and easy cleaning.

Buck
--------------------------
-----Original Message-----


>jd---i shoot 3f in everything i own and adjust the charge accordingly---i
>know a lot will say you need 2f for 50 and above but have found better
>and quicker ignition with  using 3 f and will continue to meet my
>faith---hammer me at will---I like my 3 f
>even shoot it in my .730 ---bear gun.
>
>HAWK
>MICHAEL PIERCE
>1-813-771-1815
>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>
>On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:45:27 -0600 [e-mail] writes:
>>Greetings, Wise Ones and others,
>>Along the shooting line I heard a skinner claim that he liked to shoot
>>fff in his 54 cal.  I, being the novice, asked why.  He claimed that
>>it
>>shot cleaner and he used less powder.
>>Is this a good idea?
>>I know that fff creates more pressure in small cal. rifles.  I would
>>assume that it would be the same in a large bore.
>>Historically, what was the grade of the powder used by the early
>>explorers?  I find it hard to believe that there were 4 grades of
>>powder
>>back then.
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>Thanks for your time and thoughts.
>>
>>Pilgrim JD
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: [e-mail]: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
Date: 01 Jan 1998 01:05:03 -0600

yellow feather has added his confermation and support---

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <002a01be0bdd$137400c0$246435ce@default>
<[e-mail]>

Hawk,
You can forward this on to the list. I haven't signed back on the list
yet.
Those plastic bead people and such get tiresome. Besides, most of them
don't
know how to trap pink noggies!
Ken

michael pierce wrote:
PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR BEING SNIPPY ABOUT HAWKINS---THAT IS A PET PEVE OF

> MINE ---A HAWKINS IS A HAWKINS AND ANYTHING ELSE IS A REPRODUCTION OR A
> PLAINS RIFLE---MY ORIGINAL HAWKINS HAS MADE MEAT ALMOST EVER YEAR FOR
THE
> LAST 10 OR 12----YELLOW FEATHER CAN VERIFY THAT----JUST CAME FROM
> ARKANSAS WHERE WE HUNTED TOGETHER---FOR MUZZLE LOADING SEASON---i
KILLED
> A BIG DOE-------BTW---i NORMALLY HUNT DURING RIFLE SEASON WITH THE SAME
> RIFLE.

Howdy,Hawk ain't bs'ing. One shot, one kill and she was a very nice one
as
well. That Hawken is beautiful. I was wondering before I finally saw it
if it
was another mountain man yarn, but it ain't. Saw some fantastic gun work
and
restoration as well. Saw one he built for another fellow and it shines! I
have to agree with Hawk on this one thing, if it ain't a genuine Hawken
or an
exact copy, it's a plains rifle. I have a Leman and love her. Never did
cotten to all that iron and steel, I like brass furniture. But a Hawken
is
like the Rolls Royce of mountain rifles and to call a TC or a Cabelas a
Hawken is like confusing a silk purse with a sows ears.
nuff said,
Your most disobediant servant,
YellowFeather

>
>
> HAWK
> MICHAEL PIERCE
> 1-813-771-1815
> E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>
> On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:32:23 -0600 "Johnny Rutledge"
> <[e-mail]> writes:
> >IT IS A GOD DAMN HAWKINS FLINTER.  THE ONLY ONE THEY OFFER BUDDY.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:54 PM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock
> >
> >
> >>WHAT GUN DID YOU GET---THEY HAVE SEVERAL 54 CAL---YOUR AMOUNT OF
> >INPUT
> >>WILL DETURMINE THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE---SMALL INPUT GETS SMALL
> >>RESPONSE---LIKE NONE---LET US KNOW MORE INFO AND WE CAN HELP===
> >>
> >>HAWK
> >>MICHAEL PIERCE
> >>1-813-771-1815
> >>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
> >>
> >>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600 "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE"
> >><[e-mail]> writes:
> >>>Hello List:
> >>>
> >>>    Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I
> >>>could get
> >>>an extra lock for it.  does any one in the USA make a lock that will
> >
> >>>fit it
> >>>without carving on the stock.     who makes the lock for the
> >>>Manufacture.
> >>>
> >>>                                                thanks LONE_WOLF
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>___________________________________________________________________
> >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> >>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
> >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> >>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




--------- End forwarded message ----------

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>: How Specs Live Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)
Date: 01 Jan 1998 00:20:29 -0600

just got this in from a friend of mine that knew i liked historical
background and thought i would share it---

it is a bit of historical information on why a waggon and a train are the
same gage---in reality the us standard gage is 54 3/4 in and is larger
than the european gage----some good information to store in your files
for future reference---this may cause the same palaber as the bit on the
upstream and the downstream of a river---

let the discussion begin----

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
(http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)
Message-ID: <003c01be15d3$722babe0$0ac0a5d0@blkpowdr>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


How Specs Live Forever

-------

The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet =
8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? =
Because that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. =
railroads were built by English expatriates. Why did the English build =
them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same =
people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they =
used.=20

Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the =
tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building =
wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd =
wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons =
would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the =
spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20

So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in =
Europe were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads =
have been used ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which =
everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were =
made by Roman war chariots and they all had identical wheel spacings.=20

Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States =
standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original =
specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to =
live forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder
=
what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the =
Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the =
ass-ends of two war horses.=20

-Unknown=20


-------

Thought you might enjoy this...Steve
-------
=20

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>How Specs Live Forever</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<CENTER>
<H1>How Specs Live Forever</H1></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet
=
8.5=20
inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? =
Because=20
that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. railroads were =
built by=20
English expatriates. Why did the English build them like that? Because =
the first=20
rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad =
tramways,=20
and that's the gauge they used.=20
<P>Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the =
tramways=20
used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which =
used that=20
wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if =
they=20
tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the =
old, long=20
distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20
<P>So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in
=
Europe=20
were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been
=
used=20
ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to =
match for=20
fear of destroying their wagons, were made by Roman war chariots and =
they all=20
had identical wheel spacings.=20
<P>Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States
=

standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original=20
specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to =
live=20
forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what
=
horse's=20
ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Roman =
chariots were=20
made to be just wide enough to accommodate the ass-ends of two war =
horses.=20
<P>-Unknown=20
<HR>
<BR><U><FONT color=3D#800080>Thought you might enjoy =
this...Steve</FONT></U>
<HR>
 </BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700--


--------- End forwarded message ----------

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>: How Specs Live Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)
Date: 22 Nov 1998 18:02:59 -0600

That is remarkable information.  Reminds me of the PBS show a few years back
that traced similar strings from antiquity to modern times.  A lot more such
examples exist than one would suppose.  Thanks for sharing.  I can't think
of the name of the show for the life of me.  Old Timers Disease once again
raises its ugly head.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----
[e-mail] <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
<[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
<[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
<[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
<[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
<[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)


>just got this in from a friend of mine that knew i liked historical
>background and thought i would share it---
>
>it is a bit of historical information on why a waggon and a train are the
>same gage---in reality the us standard gage is 54 3/4 in and is larger
>than the european gage----some good information to store in your files
>for future reference---this may cause the same palaber as the bit on the
>upstream and the downstream of a river---
>
>let the discussion begin----
>
>HAWK
>MICHAEL PIERCE
>1-813-771-1815
>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
>From: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>
>To: "Mike Pierce" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: How Specs Live Forever
>(http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)
>Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 21:47:21 -0600
>Message-ID: <003c01be15d3$722babe0$0ac0a5d0@blkpowdr>
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
>How Specs Live Forever
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>-------
>
>The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet =
>8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? =
>Because that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. =
>railroads were built by English expatriates. Why did the English build =
>them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same =
>people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they =
>used.=20
>
>Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the =
>tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building =
>wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd =
>wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons =
>would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the =
>spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20
>
>So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in =
>Europe were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads =
>have been used ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which =
>everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were =
>made by Roman war chariots and they all had identical wheel spacings.=20
>
>Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States =
>standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original =
>specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to =
>live forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder
>=
>what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the =
>Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the =
>ass-ends of two war horses.=20
>
>-Unknown=20
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>-------
>
>Thought you might enjoy this...Steve
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>-------
>=20
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700
>Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
><HTML>
><HEAD>
>
><META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
>http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>How Specs Live Forever</TITLE><BASE=20
>href=3Dhttp://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm>
><META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV> </DIV>
><CENTER>
><H1>How Specs Live Forever</H1></CENTER>
><HR>
>
><P>The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet
>=
>8.5=20
>inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? =
>Because=20
>that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. railroads were =
>built by=20
>English expatriates. Why did the English build them like that? Because =
>the first=20
>rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad =
>tramways,=20
>and that's the gauge they used.=20
><P>Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the =
>tramways=20
>used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which =
>used that=20
>wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if =
>they=20
>tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the =
>old, long=20
>distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20
><P>So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in
>=
>Europe=20
>were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been
>=
>used=20
>ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to =
>match for=20
>fear of destroying their wagons, were made by Roman war chariots and =
>they all=20
>had identical wheel spacings.=20
><P>Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States
>=
>
>standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original=20
>specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to =
>live=20
>forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what
>=
>horse's=20
>ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Roman =
>chariots were=20
>made to be just wide enough to accommodate the ass-ends of two war =
>horses.=20
><P>-Unknown=20
><HR>
><BR><U><FONT color=3D#800080>Thought you might enjoy =
>this...Steve</FONT></U>
><HR>
> </BODY></HTML>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700--
>
>
>--------- End forwarded message ----------
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>: How Specs Live Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)
Date: 22 Nov 1998 18:25:12 -0600

The show was called "Connections".  An Old Timers Disease breakthrough!!
Lanney
-----Original Message-----
Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)


>That is remarkable information.  Reminds me of the PBS show a few years
back
>that traced similar strings from antiquity to modern times.  A lot more
such
>examples exist than one would suppose.  Thanks for sharing.  I can't think
>of the name of the show for the life of me.  Old Timers Disease once again
>raises its ugly head.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>-----Original Message-----
>From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>;
>[e-mail] <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
><[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
><[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
><[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
><[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
><[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Sunday, November 22, 1998 11:26 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>: How Specs Live
>Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)
>
>
>>just got this in from a friend of mine that knew i liked historical
>>background and thought i would share it---
>>
>>it is a bit of historical information on why a waggon and a train are the
>>same gage---in reality the us standard gage is 54 3/4 in and is larger
>>than the european gage----some good information to store in your files
>>for future reference---this may cause the same palaber as the bit on the
>>upstream and the downstream of a river---
>>
>>let the discussion begin----
>>
>>HAWK
>>MICHAEL PIERCE
>>1-813-771-1815
>>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>>--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
>>From: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>
>>To: "Mike Pierce" <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: How Specs Live Forever
>>(http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)
>>Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 21:47:21 -0600
>>Message-ID: <003c01be15d3$722babe0$0ac0a5d0@blkpowdr>
>>
>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>
>>------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700
>>Content-Type: text/plain;
>> charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>
>>How Specs Live Forever
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>-------
>>
>>The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet =
>>8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? =
>>Because that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. =
>>railroads were built by English expatriates. Why did the English build =
>>them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same =
>>people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they =
>>used.=20
>>
>>Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the =
>>tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building =
>>wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd =
>>wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons =
>>would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the =
>>spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20
>>
>>So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in =
>>Europe were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads =
>>have been used ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which =
>>everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were =
>>made by Roman war chariots and they all had identical wheel spacings.=20
>>
>>Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States =
>>standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original =
>>specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to =
>>live forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder
>>=
>>what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the =
>>Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the =
>>ass-ends of two war horses.=20
>>
>>-Unknown=20
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>-------
>>
>>Thought you might enjoy this...Steve
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>-------
>>=20
>>
>>------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700
>>Content-Type: text/html;
>> charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
>><HTML>
>><HEAD>
>>
>><META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
>>http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>How Specs Live Forever</TITLE><BASE=20
>>href=3Dhttp://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm>
>><META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
>></HEAD>
>><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
>><DIV> </DIV>
>><CENTER>
>><H1>How Specs Live Forever</H1></CENTER>
>><HR>
>>
>><P>The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet
>>=
>>8.5=20
>>inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? =
>>Because=20
>>that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. railroads were =
>>built by=20
>>English expatriates. Why did the English build them like that? Because =
>>the first=20
>>rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad =
>>tramways,=20
>>and that's the gauge they used.=20
>><P>Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the =
>>tramways=20
>>used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which =
>>used that=20
>>wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if =
>>they=20
>>tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the =
>>old, long=20
>>distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20
>><P>So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in
>>=
>>Europe=20
>>were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been
>>=
>>used=20
>>ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to =
>>match for=20
>>fear of destroying their wagons, were made by Roman war chariots and =
>>they all=20
>>had identical wheel spacings.=20
>><P>Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States
>>=
>>
>>standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original=20
>>specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to =
>>live=20
>>forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what
>>=
>>horse's=20
>>ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Roman =
>>chariots were=20
>>made to be just wide enough to accommodate the ass-ends of two war =
>>horses.=20
>><P>-Unknown=20
>><HR>
>><BR><U><FONT color=3D#800080>Thought you might enjoy =
>>this...Steve</FONT></U>
>><HR>
>> </BODY></HTML>
>>
>>------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700--
>>
>>
>>--------- End forwarded message ----------
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: On PBS
Date: 22 Nov 1998 18:55:30 -0700

Hello the camp!

Fronter:Legends of the Old Northwest

Will air on PBS again Friday the 27th at 8 o'clock eastern, in case you
missed it last time. It covers Rogers Rangers, Pontiac, Tecumseh, and
Rogers brother. 4 hours total.

Ron


Lewis Fork Free Trappers
<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/Trappers.html>
Email <[e-mail]>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #178
Date: 22 Nov 1998 20:41:10 -0600

I am not sure what happened to my post about caps.  I think I must have
sent it off into space or something.
Here it is again...
I made an impulse buy of some MAGNUM percussion caps made by CCI.
I don't know what caused me to do this.  It was strictly impulse, which
accounts for about 50+% of my purchases.
 Now that I have them, I am wondering if I should use these.  With the
inlines coming out I got to thinking that maybe these were just for
them.  I really do not want to damage my nipple or hammer or have any
kind of a big surprise on the line or in the woods.
Does anyone out there know the story on these MAGNUM CAPS?

Thanks again in advance.

Pilgrim JD



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On PBS
Date: 23 Nov 1998 07:42:26 -0700

>Fronter:Legends of the Old Northwest
>
>Will air on PBS again Friday the 27th at 8 o'clock eastern, in case you
PBS? It was on the History Channel last time.

>missed it last time. It covers Rogers Rangers, Pontiac, Tecumseh, and
>Rogers brother. 4 hours total.

Roger's brother?  The final episode was on George Rodgers Clark. No relation
that I know of.

Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833








-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On PBS
Date: 23 Nov 1998 07:43:12 -0700

>Fronter:Legends of the Old Northwest
>
>Will air on PBS again Friday the 27th at 8 o'clock eastern, in case you
PBS? It was on the History Channel last time.

>missed it last time. It covers Rogers Rangers, Pontiac, Tecumseh, and
>Rogers brother. 4 hours total.

Roger's brother?  The final episode was on George Rodgers Clark. No relation
that I know of.

Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833










-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: Deer hunting
Date: 23 Nov 1998 08:40:41 -0700

Well.............. My first rifle was a Lyman Great Plains 54, Shot an elk,
moose, antelope, several deer with it. Stock cracked and had it replaced.
Have a Hatfield 36, shoots nice, killed many bunnies and squirrels with it.
Traded a buffalo robe for a Leman full stock 54, a very nice rifle, haven't
hunted a lot with it yet.
My 12 year old son, just shot his first deer with a 54, missed one at 45
yards and then...........dropped one in the liver at 110 yards. I don't
reccomend shooting a deer that far. But it was one hellava shot. I paced
off the distance just to be sure. Gee, I was proud of the boy. I had gotten
my first deer with a 50 many years ago and told him, he had to do the same.
Even if just for the memory.
As for types of guns per people, shoot what you can afford. I have more
admiration for a guy shooting a CVA very well, than a guy who stands around
with an oringinal and has never hunted with it and shoots poorly.
Personally, I like a hand built rifle, CVA's  and others modern looking
rifles, just don't look right nor feel right. But to each his own. I would
not turn down a hunting partner due the rifle his carries, but rather his
attitude carries more weight than the balls in his bag.
Good reading comments though there boys,
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laura Rugel Glise <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Osborne Russell
Date: 22 Nov 1998 18:48:10 +0000

I am almost finished with my novel, Across the Seasons.  Historical
fiction including Osborne Russell and the Rendezvous of 1838 on the Wind
River.

1.  Any objections to referring to Russell's firearm as his
"mountain rifle?"

2.  Anyone know how to get in touch with Whitney "Blanket"
    Hibbard, Upper Missouri Outfit?  Would like to discuss his
    retracing of Russell's ride to the "dividing of the waters."

3.    I realize AMM is for men only.  May women submit articles to
    The Tomahawk & Long Rifle for publication?

Appreciate the help.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On PBS
Date: 23 Nov 1998 17:14:50 -0700

You're right Spinner, I musta had a brain cramp! (again). <G>

Ron


> Roger's brother?  The final episode was on George Rodgers Clark. No
relation
> that I know of.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
> WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
>      http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
> Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
>      http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Osbourne Russell
Date: 23 Nov 1998 17:22:47 +0100

1.  I can't recall a period usage of the term
"mountain rifle" but there may be one.  In the
commercial tradeof the 1830s, rifles were
generally referred to by their pattern:  Lancaster
or just "American" for Pa. pattern guns, and
"English pattern" or "Scroll guard" for the
English pattern guns.  Another way to refer to
guns was by their maker, such as "Henry."

2.  This is not a good time to talk to Whit.  He
just had a death in the family.  But, I was on the
same ride up Pacific Creek to the parting of the
waters in the Bridger-Teton wilderness a few years
ago.  What do you want to know?
Contact me off list if you want.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On PBS
Date: 23 Nov 1998 23:59:46 -0700

>You're right Spinner, I musta had a brain cramp! (again). <G>
>
>Ron


I see we share the same affliction, Ron!  <g>

Cheers,
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>: How Specs Live Forever ...
Date: 24 Nov 1998 02:59:02 EST

a friend of mine is a train buff-
he says it goes back to roman days,  due to chariots.  The roman roads were
all rutted from chariot wheels set at the same width.  Whether all roman
chariots started out the same `gage' or not, I don't know..... but, one way or
another, all chariots did end up the same width.  As the roman empire
expanded, thus also the chariot roads.

Long after the fall, don't ya know, wagons were made to fit the old roads,
down the years, until the first steam wagons, then trains.  Kinda makes ya
wonder what effect the chariots of our empire will have on our descendants.

pappy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: T and  LR
Date: 24 Nov 1998 12:56:01 -0600

How does one get copies of subscriptions to T and LR?

Matt Despain



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Women and the AMM
Date: 24 Nov 1998 13:01:14 -0600

A question for AMM members.  Are women part of the organization or is it
a men's only group?  And if women are included can they move up in the
ranks by puting on rendezvous and gatherings as men do?  If anyone would
like to extrapolate on this matter or anything about women and the AMM
please feel free to do so.


Matt Despain
University of Oklahoma



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnston Reburial
Date: 24 Nov 1998 13:07:10 -0600

A couple months ago there was discussion about Johnston and his reburial
at Cody, Wyo.  There were mentions of some articles done on it in T &
LR.  If anyone has citations or could run me copies of these articles I
would gladley pay copy and mailing costs.  Also, there was mention that
the AMM, who I belive was heavily involved in the reburial, put out a
pamphlet on the event.  If this is true I would be interested in a copy
of this document too.  If anyone can help me with these I would be
greatful.

Thanks,

Matt Despain
University of Oklahoma
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 24 Nov 1998 14:51:32 EST

    . . . just curious, do the majority of present day MtMen sew or purchase your
replica MtMan clothing?  Which pieces, specifically, do you sew and/or
regularly purchase?

Thank you.

Regards,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing -Reply
Date: 24 Nov 1998 14:55:52 -0600

I sew all the articles of clothing that I make for myself.  I hand sew them
with real thread, not man made materials, or real deer or elk sinew.

Tim Austin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Women and the AMM
Date: 24 Nov 1998 14:30:30 -0700



I am a 47 year old female who has been "affiliated" with AMM since the late
70's
The American Mountain Man association is a MEN ONLY organization.    As far
as membership goes.
As far as the participation of women in the group, I have found that most
of the men welcome women to participate in rendezvous.
Women are encouraged to send articles for the Tomahawk and Longrifle.
Can participate in raffles as well as donate prizes.
Are respected for their abilities and hard work.
As far as going up in rank?  Well it is all a matter of a woman's state of
mind.  I feel that I can "get on the ground" or do just about anything
required a man to do.  Most men who know me also have as much confidence in
me.  Can I set a primitive camp?  YOu bet.  Accoutrements ok?  Yep.  Trap a
beaver? Sure
Shoot a deer with a flintlock, gut it, strip it and dry it? Certainly.
Several years ago a young woman  who had also been affiliated with the
group via her father, tried to force her way into the group.  A "equality"
trip if you will.
I couldn't help but realize that even thought she may had been affifiated
with the group for many years she hadn't seen the spirit of the group.  She
hadn't a clue as to the beauty of the group.  The naturalness of the men
only theme.  She hadn't learned to respect the men and what they wanted.
I have seen the spirit of the group, and I respect the group and feel it
should always continue a men only group.

              Nuffsaid                   Ltsb.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 24 Nov 1998 14:44:30 -0700

Andrea,

I can't speak for everyone, but I make every item of clothing I use. Pants,
shirts, coats, mocassins, knife sheathes, shooting bags, you name it. I
learned how to tan my own leather because I couldn't (wouldn't) afford to
buy the ugly "gold" elk & deer hides I wanted.

I always make a 'pattern', no matter what I'm making. If it turns out right,
I save it. If it doesn't, or if I'm making a 'one-of-a-kind' item for
someone, I destroy it.

About the only thing I buy is cotton/linen shirts, but that's kind of
fitting, isn't it.

Hyar's luck,
Red Coyote

> ----------
> From:     [e-mail]
> Reply To:     [e-mail]
> Sent:     Tuesday, November 24, 1998 12:51
> To:     [e-mail]
> Subject:     MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
>
>     . . . just curious, do the majority of present day MtMen sew or
> purchase your
> replica MtMan clothing?  Which pieces, specifically, do you sew and/or
> regularly purchase?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
> [e-mail]
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: T and  LR
Date: 24 Nov 1998 17:40:03 -0700

CHIEF CLERK TERRY AVERY
16630 PENNY AVE.
SAND LAKE, MI  49343
[phone]

CAN GIVE YOU NEEDED INFORMATION YOU REQUESTED.

---------------------------
-----Original Message-----


>How does one get copies of subscriptions to T and LR?
>
>Matt Despain
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Women and the AMM
Date: 24 Nov 1998 17:43:32 -0700

Thank you, well said.
----------------------------
-----Original Message-----


>
>
>I am a 47 year old female who has been "affiliated" with AMM since the late
>70's
>The American Mountain Man association is a MEN ONLY organization.    As far
>as membership goes.
>As far as the participation of women in the group, I have found that most
>of the men welcome women to participate in rendezvous.
>Women are encouraged to send articles for the Tomahawk and Longrifle.
>Can participate in raffles as well as donate prizes.
>Are respected for their abilities and hard work.
>As far as going up in rank?  Well it is all a matter of a woman's state of
>mind.  I feel that I can "get on the ground" or do just about anything
>required a man to do.  Most men who know me also have as much confidence in
>me.  Can I set a primitive camp?  YOu bet.  Accoutrements ok?  Yep.  Trap a
>beaver? Sure
>Shoot a deer with a flintlock, gut it, strip it and dry it? Certainly.
>Several years ago a young woman  who had also been affiliated with the
>group via her father, tried to force her way into the group.  A "equality"
>trip if you will.
>I couldn't help but realize that even thought she may had been affifiated
>with the group for many years she hadn't seen the spirit of the group.  She
>hadn't a clue as to the beauty of the group.  The naturalness of the men
>only theme.  She hadn't learned to respect the men and what they wanted.
>I have seen the spirit of the group, and I respect the group and feel it
>should always continue a men only group.
>
>              Nuffsaid                   Ltsb.
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 24 Nov 1998 20:17:45 -0800 (PST)

Andrea,

You are probably looking at a diverse range of people here.  Many like me,
choose to make most or all of their clothes.  I have hand sewn all my pairs
of pants, my jacket, shooting bags, belt, most of my moccasins, and some of
my cloth shirts (the others were hand sewn by other people.)  I have made a
few guns, but that is not my area of expertise.  I wouldn't even attempt to
make my saddle and tack (which is period correct, but made by others.)

There are others who make a few things and there are still many others who
have little or no skill at making things and buy everything.  Unfortunately,
there is no definitive answer.

Hope that helps,

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488

________________________________________________________________________________

At 02:51 PM 11/24/98 EST, you wrote:
>    . . . just curious, do the majority of present day MtMen sew or purchase your
>replica MtMan clothing?  Which pieces, specifically, do you sew and/or
>regularly purchase?
>
>Thank you.
>
>Regards,
>Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
>[e-mail]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 24 Nov 1998 22:07:16 +0000

Andrea, Is this a marketing survey?  <s>  I am an ametuer seamster.  I
have made pants, coats, undergarments, mocassins, etc....  My wife makes
some of my shirts, Most I purchase.  A lot of the AMM members, general
buckskinners, and reenactors purchase quality clothing from many
different sources.  There is a niche market for quality period clothing.
I wish I had the time to make all of my clothing, but I don't, so I
purchase some of it when it is quality and affordable.  Hope this
helps....      Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 25 Nov 1998 08:42:43 -0500

I am not an AMM member, but I shall answer anyway... *grin*

I have been doing Ronnys and period reenactments (1700-1840) for about 8
years.  Some of my clothing I have made (pants, mocs, ghillies [highland
shoes], a fur vest, etc...) but most I have bought.  My sewing abilities are
not that great, and when it comesto shirts, capotes, "dress" clothing, I
want them done right, so I buy them.... More costly, but at least it looks
good... :))

Addison Miller
aka SeanBear
-----Original Message-----


>Andrea, Is this a marketing survey?  <s>  I am an ametuer seamster.  I
>have made pants, coats, undergarments, mocassins, etc....  My wife makes
>some of my shirts, Most I purchase.  A lot of the AMM members, general
>buckskinners, and reenactors purchase quality clothing from many
>different sources.  There is a niche market for quality period clothing.
>I wish I had the time to make all of my clothing, but I don't, so I
>purchase some of it when it is quality and affordable.  Hope this
>helps....      Hardtack
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 25 Nov 1998 12:08:36 EST

In a message dated 11/24/98 9:25:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Andrea, Is this a marketing survey? >>

Dear Hardtack and others,

    No (above mention) and I apologize for not having explained my intentions
when I first posted my query.  Thank you for asking.

    If a lot of members would sew their own MtMan clothing gear if they had the
necessary sewing skills or if those who are presently sewing could stand for a
little support, I might be able to help you as I have a heavy background in
sewing.  If it turns out that the interest or need just isn't there, I want to
know that too.

    Also, I have been researching original MtMans clothing and have been
impressed with my findings.  Amongst other things, I work as a sewing author.
At some point I might be interested in letting some of the rest of the world
in on the great MtMan's clothing tailored from fine sumptuous fabrics
(braintan leather, wool blankets, etc.).  I would do this only with approval
from all of you.  It would help me a lot if you could please write and let me
know what you think of this idea.

    I have the deepest respect for the MtMan culture, both past and present.  If
I can be of assistance to you in the area of sewing, I am happy to look into
it.  If you are interested in sharing some of your rich sewing history with
others, I am happy to explore that possibility also.

    I am looking forward to hearing from all/each of you regarding the above
mention topics.  Thanks to all.

Best regards from rainy Spokane where I am keeping my powder dry,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer    Sewing Design Company
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Deer hunting
Date: 25 Nov 1998 15:33:58 EST

Hey Joe,
You got any more buffalo hides layin around? I gotta have some thing you might
want to trade for!

Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM membership/ Response to Tim Austin
Date: 25 Nov 1998 16:01:48 -0600

WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) wrote:
>
> Women are not allowed to become members in the AMM.
>
> We are not a politically correct group, and I am amazed that you would
> even ask, as the organization that you are currently part of is trying hard
> to be very politically correct, however, their recent firing of the football
> coach shows they only want things done politically correct at the time
> and place they want them, not for all cases and all occasions.  This is
> also our choice and we choose not to allow women members.
>
> Thank you.


Thanks for your vituperate response.  You assume I must be required to
know fully about an organization I have no part of (the AMM).  My
question should reveals otherwise, and I was simply asking it to clear a
point of fact, one way or the other, politically correct or not I could
care less.  You also assume that I, a student, have some omnipotent
control of the University of Oklahoma's policies and it's football
program (both of which I could care less about).  Sorry for wrankling
your feathers.  From now on I won't ask any more questions of
clarification about the AMM for my research and writings, I'll just make
it up as I go.

Thanks

Matt Despain
University of Oklahoma



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate?
Date: 25 Nov 1998 14:20:34 -0800

if you got a ten dollar head put a ten dollar hat on it. not me ill make a
wooden beak and peck with the chicken first quality not quantity.   iron
tongue

michael pierce wrote:

> longwalker please send me one of the same awards---
> HAWK
> MICHAEL PIERCE
> 1-813-771-1815
> E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>
> On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:58:18 -0600 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
> writes:
> >Washtahay-
> >some time back I wrote:
> >>   >Whoopee.  If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job
> >and
> >>   >wait til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have
> >>   >gotten a decent gun.
> >>   >LongWalker c. du B.
> >
> >And at 11:17 AM 11/10/98 -0600, someone wrote:
> >>WELL NOW ARE WE TO BECOME THE ELITIST BASTARDS THAT DO NOT WANT NEW
> >COMMERS
> >>TO JOIN?
> >       Hmmm...if being an elitist bastard means not wanting to shoot
> >next to
> >folks with guns with hammers that creep and fire from half- or
> >full-cock
> >(seen at Cabelas) or guns with gas leaks at the breech (a CVA
> >"Squirrel
> >Rifle" I bought for my then new bride) or nipples that blow out in to
> >space
> >when fired (Lyman GPR, summer of '95, a couple T/Cs I have seen over
> >the
> >years) then yes, I want to be considered an "elitist bastard".  Having
> >been
> >born a bastard, I had a head start-some might consider it an unfair
> >advantage.
> >       So come on all, be an elitist bastard with me!  You will be
> >expected to
> >throw your shop open to folks who bought those less-than-satisfactory
> >guns,
> >to help repair them, and to teach their new owners the rules of
> >firearms
> >safety.  Your shop may well become the place new folks turn when they
> >realize the only way they can afford a good gun (by their standards)
> >is to
> >build one, buying parts as they can afford them-this may mean your
> >dining
> >room, like mine, will have 6 rifles in various stages of cunstruction
> >standing against the bookshelves.  It will mean teaching folks skills
> >from
> >tracking that deer they hit but didn't put down to tanning the hide to
> >how
> >to cook over an open fire.  It means being the same thing to the new
> >guys
> >today as it meant to the folks who got me started were to me.
> >Frankly, I
> >figure its a debt I owe.
> >
> >>its time a few wake up and realize that as you said,"pick up a
> >>parttime job at minimum wage..." In my real life I commute 2 hours
> >each
> >>way,for a hell of a lot more than min.wage.
> >       That's nice.  I have one full time job an hour east of here
> >and another
> >full time job an hour west of here.  So what?  If it meant the
> >difference
> >between compromising or getting what I want, I will find a way.  If
> >that
> >means I spend my day off every week working in a gas station for a
> >couple
> >months, I do it.   I guess some folks value their TV time more than
> >others.
> >
> >>Nothing but an original is
> >>truely authenic,but give the new commers a chance.
> >       Back when I was getting started, I saw a guy wrap a CVA
> >Kentucky around a
> >tree.  Turns out he had spent the whole summer trying to get the thing
> >to
> >work.  I don't want the new guys of today to have to deal with that.
> >I'm
> >trying to give the new comers a chance to get started without the
> >added
> >handicap of a defective rifle.  Sorry that seems unreasonable to you.
> >
> >
> >> My first muzzleloader was a CVA(still have
> >>it,still shoots straight,and I  killed 9 deer with it)
> >       My last CVA is the "Squirrel Rifle" that turned my ex-wife off
> >shooting.
> >Something about the way smoke came out from under the lockplate...
> >According to CVA, all I had to do was buy a new barrel-at a cost equal
> >to
> >the cost of the gun-to fix a manufacturer's defect.  Seems easier to
> >just
> >avoid the crap in the first place.
> >
> >> So lets not give a
> >>newcommer a hard time because he cannot afford a custom gun(in time
> >he will
> >>find a way to get one any way!)lets welcome him and help educate.
> >       You seem to have the mistaken notion that my dislike of poor
> >quality guns
> >extends to their owners.  This is not the case.  But I am not going to
> >lie
> >and tell someone their gun is authentic in appearance when it isn't,
> >or say
> >it is safe when its not.  If someone is going to buy a sub-$300
> >production
> >rifle, at least let him buy one that won't injure him or someone else.
> >
> >
> >LongWalker c. du B. and elitist bastard
> >(I'd like to thank the Academy...I've always aspired to this
> >award...I'll
> >do my best to live up to my understanding of what this means to me...I
> >never thought I'd receive this title so early in life...)
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapper Joke
Date: 25 Nov 1998 18:15:01 EST

IT WAS GETTING A LITTLE TOO SERIOUS, SO I THOUGHT I'D THROW THIS IN:

Two mountain trappers came into town after spending months in the wilderness.
After the owner of the trading post paid them for the furs, they asked the
obvious question.  "Oh no," said the storekeeper, "ain't no females within a
thousand miles,
but I tell you what we do around here."  He reached under the counter and
pulled out two specially made boards and handed them to the trappers.  Each of
the padded boards had a fur lined hole in it with a soft leather bag on the
other side.  "We've got a carpenter around here who builds these things. And
believe me, they'll do the trick until you guys find the real thing.  Just
keep the fur clean and keep that bag full of warm bear grease and you'll do
just fine."   The two men paid for their boards and went back to the frontier.
Months later, one of the trappers came back for supplies.  "Where's your
friend?" asked the old storekeeper.   "Oh, him?" replied the trapper, "I had
to shoot him.  You see, I came back to the camp a little early one night and
caught that S.O.B. with my board."           YHS, Shootz Himsefl



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapper Joke
Date: 25 Nov 1998 18:15:01 EST

IT WAS GETTING A LITTLE TOO SERIOUS, SO I THOUGHT I'D THROW THIS IN:

Two mountain trappers came into town after spending months in the wilderness.
After the owner of the trading post paid them for the furs, they asked the
obvious question.  "Oh no," said the storekeeper, "ain't no females within a
thousand miles,
but I tell you what we do around here."  He reached under the counter and
pulled out two specially made boards and handed them to the trappers.  Each of
the padded boards had a fur lined hole in it with a soft leather bag on the
other side.  "We've got a carpenter around here who builds these things. And
believe me, they'll do the trick until you guys find the real thing.  Just
keep the fur clean and keep that bag full of warm bear grease and you'll do
just fine."   The two men paid for their boards and went back to the frontier.
Months later, one of the trappers came back for supplies.  "Where's your
friend?" asked the old storekeeper.   "Oh, him?" replied the trapper, "I had
to shoot him.  You see, I came back to the camp a little early one night and
caught that S.O.B. with my board."           YHS, Shootz Himsefl



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 25 Nov 1998 18:01:30 -0800

I have always sewed my own leather clothing, due to the relative courseness
of stitching and a general desire to get on with it. I have so far purchased
all my wool and linen garments (shirts and capotes).
  At the risk of covering ground you may be familiar with, one reason I do
my own leather clothes is to gain more control over where the thick and thin
parts of each hide get used. I also select hides carefully to avoid cuts or
damage in the critical wear areas. In addition to the adage "wear the hide
in the direction the original owner wore it", I have found that putting the
thick parts on the wear points (seat, front of knees, etc) and the thin
parts on the bending parts (back of knees, elbows) gives a more comfortable
and serviceable garment, although it sometimes precludes using every square
inch of a hide. The legs of pants seem to work out pretty well by running
the deer's spine (thicker part) down the front of the legs, wrapping the
thinner part behind the knee, and somehow, I've managed to pull a thick part
of the shoulder around to the seat, or used a separate, thick part. It is
distressing to have a garment give way prematurely because of a thin or
damaged spot in a critical area.
   I'll tell you what -- it may seem mundane, but I have trouble finding
good, serviceable moccasins and durable ones are fairly hard to make. I
gather that mocassins were fairly expendable in the old days, but the
pattern still matters, in how it keeps out stones and sand, etc.
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:52 AM


    . . . just curious, do the majority of present day MtMen sew or
purchase your
replica MtMan clothing?  Which pieces, specifically, do you sew and/or
regularly purchase?

Thank you.

Regards,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 25 Nov 1998 19:05:19 -0800


As a relatively new buckskinner I started out buying my skins, cotton shirts,
capote and shooting bag.  Immediately I began to alter the shooting bag to my
personal needs and look at my skins thinking I wish this or that was different.
For the most part I think I had to buy these "first" items to get started but
now look forward to making replacements for all but the capote.  I fault no man
for buying his equipment but now realize there is so much more pleasure in
owning and using items you made yourself.  Perhaps it's a natural progression as
each person reaches his or her own depth of commitment?  Some aspire to a "pure"
experience and others to a "weekend" experience.  Both are perfectly acceptable
and at the same time diametrically opposed all the while sharing varying amounts
of common ground.  All that to say...to each his own!  I'd do things differently
if I was starting out again, but then again, I wouldn't know that if I hadn't
done things the way I did!

Medicine Bear


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:52 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
>
>         . . . just curious, do the majority of present day MtMen sew or
> purchase your
> replica MtMan clothing?  Which pieces, specifically, do you sew and/or
> regularly purchase?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
> [e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 25 Nov 1998 20:54:31 +0000

Andrea,  My old roommate nicknamed me  " Samuri Seamstress"- this was a
statement about my crude abilities, etc...  My technique has improved
over the years, but I still put my seams inside so no one will see them.
My mother- in - law gave an 1870's Treadle sewing machine, which I
learned to use.  I wish that there were more 'period'  patterens
available.  It would be great if there were more sources for Mtn. Man
clothing patterns.  I know I would benefit from related sewing tips,
etc...  Are you thinking of writing articles?   That would be of benefit
to many of us.  My  'marketing'  wise crack was just that, hence the <s>
(smile).  Keep in touch.        Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM membership/ Response to Tim Austin
Date: 26 Nov 1998 09:08:34 EST

matt,
       contact me off line,about amm membership .
                      [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Larry R. Weisz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Holiday wishs
Date: 26 Nov 1998 08:38:05 -0600

Have a happy and bountiful Thanks Giving. To those getting to hunt this
weekend be safe and good shooting.
Littlehawk (one of the lurkers)




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Deer hunting
Date: 26 Nov 1998 08:26:37 -0700

>Hey Joe,
>You got any more buffalo hides layin around? I gotta have some thing you might
>want to trade for!
>
>Steve

Steve, I am having a memory lapse.  Can't recall discussing buffalo hides
with anyone.
Can give you the name of a friend who deals in buffalo hides.
Larry Belitz     605-745-3902
                        Joe





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Deer hunting
Date: 26 Nov 1998 08:39:54 -0700

>>Hey Joe,
>>You got any more buffalo hides layin around? I gotta have some thing you
>>might
>>want to trade for!
>>
>>Steve
>
>Steve, I am having a memory lapse.  Can't recall discussing buffalo hides
>with anyone.
>Can give you the name of a friend who deals in buffalo hides.
>Larry Belitz     605-745-3902
>                        Joe

Sorry for the mistake in sending this to the history site.  We realized
when it came back so soon that Steve must be addressing another Joe.
Sorry    Joe & Longtrail





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 26 Nov 1998 10:26:32 -0500

I forgot to say earlier that I do make most of my "furnishings" for the
camp.. bed, cook box, boxes, etc...

-----Original Message-----


>
>As a relatively new buckskinner I started out buying my skins, cotton
shirts,
>capote and shooting bag.  Immediately I began to alter the shooting bag to
my
>personal needs and look at my skins thinking I wish this or that was
different.
>For the most part I think I had to buy these "first" items to get started
but
>now look forward to making replacements for all but the capote.  I fault no
man
>for buying his equipment but now realize there is so much more pleasure in
>owning and using items you made yourself.  Perhaps it's a natural
progression as
>each person reaches his or her own depth of commitment?  Some aspire to a
"pure"
>experience and others to a "weekend" experience.  Both are perfectly
acceptable
>and at the same time diametrically opposed all the while sharing varying
amounts
>of common ground.  All that to say...to each his own!  I'd do things
differently
>if I was starting out again, but then again, I wouldn't know that if I
hadn't
>done things the way I did!
>
>Medicine Bear
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:52 AM
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
>>
>>         . . . just curious, do the majority of present day MtMen sew or
>> purchase your
>> replica MtMan clothing?  Which pieces, specifically, do you sew and/or
>> regularly purchase?
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
>> [e-mail]
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnston Reburial
Date: 26 Nov 1998 11:16:56 -0500

Matt,

The reburial of the old liver-eater was at Trail Town, a collection of
historial Wyoming buildings on the edge of Cody, Wyoming. There are several
other mountain men monuments there, including one for John Colter (no, he
isn't buried there--just a monument since he was the first white man to
visit the town site of Cody). Trail Town doesn't have a website that I could
locate, but their address is: Trail Town, 1831 Demaris Drive, Cody, Wyoming
82414. The phone number is [phone]. The owner-operator of Trail Town
is an archaeologist named Bob Edgar. He is a delightful guy, very
knowledgeable about mountain men and western history in general. If you
contact him directly with your request, I'll bet he would be able to help
you.

Good hunting.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 2:07 PM


>A couple months ago there was discussion about Johnston and his reburial
>at Cody, Wyo.  There were mentions of some articles done on it in T &
>LR.  If anyone has citations or could run me copies of these articles I
>would gladley pay copy and mailing costs.  Also, there was mention that
>the AMM, who I belive was heavily involved in the reburial, put out a
>pamphlet on the event.  If this is true I would be interested in a copy
>of this document too.  If anyone can help me with these I would be
>greatful.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Matt Despain
>University of Oklahoma
>[e-mail]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapper Joke
Date: 26 Nov 1998 08:39:18 -0800

mister this kind of trash does not belong on this list.        iron tongue

[e-mail] wrote:

> IT WAS GETTING A LITTLE TOO SERIOUS, SO I THOUGHT I'D THROW THIS IN:
>
> Two mountain trappers came into town after spending months in the wilderness.
> After the owner of the trading post paid them for the furs, they asked the
> obvious question.  "Oh no," said the storekeeper, "ain't no females within a
> thousand miles,
> but I tell you what we do around here."  He reached under the counter and
> pulled out two specially made boards and handed them to the trappers.  Each of
> the padded boards had a fur lined hole in it with a soft leather bag on the
> other side.  "We've got a carpenter around here who builds these things. And
> believe me, they'll do the trick until you guys find the real thing.  Just
> keep the fur clean and keep that bag full of warm bear grease and you'll do
> just fine."   The two men paid for their boards and went back to the frontier.
> Months later, one of the trappers came back for supplies.  "Where's your
> friend?" asked the old storekeeper.   "Oh, him?" replied the trapper, "I had
> to shoot him.  You see, I came back to the camp a little early one night and
> caught that S.O.B. with my board."           YHS, Shootz Himsefl




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Deer hunting
Date: 26 Nov 1998 12:33:49 EST


In a message dated 11/26/98 7:24:42 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Steve, I am having a memory lapse.  Can't recall discussing buffalo hides
with anyone.>>

You mentioned that you traded a buffalo robe for a gun..... just kinda wishin
ya had more laying around....




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Deer hunting
Date: 26 Nov 1998 10:51:37 -0700

I do have several buffalo robes still available, range from $300 to $900
What did you have in mind
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapper Joke
Date: 26 Nov 1998 14:40:28 EST

Jerry (and the rest of the list), Please forgive me if I offended you.  I was
just throwing in a little humor to lighten things up after the serious tyrade
unloaded against Matt, who was merely asking a simple question about AMM
membership. I would agree that BOTH were out of place, and rest assured, I
shall make no further attempts to humor this list.  Shootz Himself



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: New Wooden Barrels
Date: 26 Nov 1998 09:17:05 EST

I am looking for a source (economical) of new wooden barrels for a display,
sized from small to large.

Do you have any idea where to look?

Mike Hoyt



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jennifer & Bill Lynch <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: howdy
Date: 25 Nov 1998 14:11:37 +0000

howdy,
i came across your tracks on the internet and was hopin' you wouldn't
mind me askin a question. i try to be as historically accurate as
possible towards the early "american" fur trade era. outta fort osage
missouri and all. i was lookin for a gun that would overall flexibilty
when it came to time periods. i recently acquired a second model brown
bess, for price and because after my research i felt it was probably the
most common and practical (cuz i hunt varmints that walk and fly). i
figured the bess would have been used by trappers during the turn of the
century and well on into the brief "heyday". the only absolute
documentation i have is of manuel lisa carryin' one up the missouri. but
of course the war of 1812 brought alot of these smoothebores into the
northern rockies too. but ya sure don't hear much about 'em at
rendezveous. i'm very aware of the popularity of the northwest trade gun
and heard it may even predate the bess. i guess i'm just wonderin' if i
might need to trade for one of them. if you have any documentaion or
advice i would much appreciate it.
bill lynch



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnston Reburial
Date: 25 Nov 1998 06:17:28 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BE183B.47113640
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have the T&LR that has the article about J Johnston and his reburial at
Cody WY.  I am going to the Pacific Beaches this weekend and will scan it
when I get home next week if I don't please poke me with a stick and I'll
do it.  The memory is not as good as it use to be.  Or maybe I remember
only what I want to.  Later Jon T

----------
: From: S.M.Despain-1 <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnston Reburial
: Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:07 AM
:
: A couple months ago there was discussion about Johnston and his reburial
: at Cody, Wyo.  There were mentions of some articles done on it in T &
: LR.  If anyone has citations or could run me copies of these articles I
: would gladley pay copy and mailing costs.  Also, there was mention that
: the AMM, who I belive was heavily involved in the reburial, put out a
: pamphlet on the event.  If this is true I would be interested in a copy
: of this document too.  If anyone can help me with these I would be
: greatful.
:
: Thanks,
:
: Matt Despain
: University of Oklahoma
: [e-mail]
:
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I have the T&LR that has the =
article about J Johnston and his reburial at Cody WY.  I am going =
to the Pacific Beaches this weekend and will scan it when I get home =
next week if I don't please poke me with a stick and I'll do it. =
 The memory is not as good as it use to be.  Or maybe I =
remember only what I want to.  Later Jon T =
 <br><br>----------<br>: From: S.M.Despain-1 <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnston =
Reburial<br>: Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:07 AM<br>: <br>: A =
couple months ago there was discussion about Johnston and his =
reburial<br>: at Cody, Wyo.  There were mentions of some articles =
done on it in T &<br>: LR.  If anyone has citations or could =
run me copies of these articles I<br>: would gladley pay copy and =
mailing costs.  Also, there was mention that<br>: the AMM, who I =
belive was heavily involved in the reburial, put out a<br>: pamphlet on =
the event.  If this is true I would be interested in a copy<br>: of =
this document too.  If anyone can help me with these I would =
be<br>: greatful.<br>: <br>: Thanks,<br>: <br>: Matt Despain<br>: =
University of Oklahoma<br>: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000"><br>: =
</p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BE183B.47113640--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Women and the AMM
Date: 24 Nov 1998 18:57:12 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BE17DC.3EC38EC0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

My sister Longtrail:


This Mountain Woman and I have been Brother and Sister as long as she has
been coming to AMM doin's We are not blood but we should be.   I love her
the way a true Brother should.   My son Pete is like a son to her she has
known him as long as we have been doing the AMM stuff.  When it comes to
being primitive we all can take a lesson from her.  Their is no one more
into research then Longtrail she has been on solo trail rides by horse and
can make a pair of Mox that is the best you'll ever see.  She has always
been there for me when I needed a hug and someone to talk to.  If we ever
take in women to the AMM I will be the first to sponsor her.  She would be
the best of the best.  She always has a spot in my camp.  Later Jon T

----------
: From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Women and the AMM
: Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 1:30 PM
:
:
:
: I am a 47 year old female who has been "affiliated" with AMM since the
late
: 70's
: The American Mountain Man association is a MEN ONLY organization.    As
far
: as membership goes.
: As far as the participation of women in the group, I have found that most
: of the men welcome women to participate in rendezvous.
: Women are encouraged to send articles for the Tomahawk and Longrifle.
: Can participate in raffles as well as donate prizes.
: Are respected for their abilities and hard work.
: As far as going up in rank?  Well it is all a matter of a woman's state
of
: mind.  I feel that I can "get on the ground" or do just about anything
: required a man to do.  Most men who know me also have as much confidence
in
: me.  Can I set a primitive camp?  You bet.  Accoutrements ok?  Yep.  Trap
a
: beaver? Sure
: Shoot a deer with a flintlock, gut it, strip it and dry it? Certainly.
: Several years ago a young woman  who had also been affiliated with the
: group via her father, tried to force her way into the group.  A
"equality"
: trip if you will.
: I couldn't help but realize that even thought she may had been affiliated
: with the group for many years she hadn't seen the spirit of the group.
She
: hadn't a clue as to the beauty of the group.  The naturalness of the men
: only theme.  She hadn't learned to respect the men and what they wanted.
: I have seen the spirit of the group, and I respect the group and feel it
: should always continue a men only group.
:
:               Nuffsaid                   Ltsb.
:
:
:

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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">My sister Longtrail:<br><br><br>This =
Mountain Woman and I have been Brother and Sister as long as she has =
been coming to AMM doin's We are not blood but we should be. =
  I love her the way a true Brother should.   My son =
Pete is like a son to her she has known him as long as we have been =
doing the AMM stuff.  When it comes to being primitive we all can =
take a lesson from her.  Their is no one more into research then =
Longtrail she has been on solo trail rides by horse and can make a pair =
of Mox that is the best you'll ever see.  She has always been there =
for me when I needed a hug and someone to talk to.  If we ever take =
in women to the AMM I will be the first to sponsor her.  She would =
be the best of the best.  She always has a spot in my camp. =
 Later Jon T <br><br>----------<br>: From: Longtrail <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Women and the AMM<br>: =
47 year old female who has been "affiliated" with AMM since =
the late<br>: 70's<br>: The American Mountain Man association is a MEN =
ONLY organization.    As far<br>: as membership =
goes.<br>: As far as the participation of women in the group, I have =
found that most<br>: of the men welcome women to participate in =
rendezvous.<br>: Women are encouraged to send articles for the Tomahawk =
and Longrifle.<br>: Can participate in raffles as well as donate =
prizes.<br>: Are respected for their abilities and hard work.<br>: As =
far as going up in rank?  Well it is all a matter of a woman's =
state of<br>: mind.  I feel that I can "get on the =
ground" or do just about anything<br>: required a man to do. =
 Most men who know me also have as much confidence in<br>: me. =
 Can I set a primitive camp?  You bet.  Accoutrements ok? =
 Yep.  Trap a<br>: beaver? Sure<br>: Shoot a deer with a =
flintlock, gut it, strip it and dry it? Certainly.<br>: Several years =
ago a young woman  who had also been affiliated with the<br>: group =
via her father, tried to force her way into the group.  A =
"equality"<br>: trip if you will.<br>: I couldn't help but =
realize that even thought she may had been affiliated<br>: with the =
group for many years she hadn't seen the spirit of the group. =
 She<br>: hadn't a clue as to the beauty of the group.  The =
naturalness of the men<br>: only theme.  She hadn't learned to =
respect the men and what they wanted.<br>: I have seen the spirit of the =
group, and I respect the group and feel it<br>: should always continue a =
men only group.<br>: <br>: =
            &=
nbsp; Nuffsaid =
            &=
nbsp;     Ltsb.<br>: <br>: <br>: <br><br></p>
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From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM T & LR
Date: 24 Nov 1998 18:53:17 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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The Chief Clerk Is not Terry Avery
The Chief Clerk Is:
Jon Link
3483 Squires
Conklin MI 49403
[phone]
ONE YEAR SUB $20.00
TWO YEARS$35.00
THREE YEARS $50.00
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">The Chief Clerk Is not Terry Avery =
<br>The Chief Clerk Is: <br>Jon Link<br>3483 Squires<br>Conklin MI 49403 =
<br>[phone]<br>ONE YEAR SUB $20.00<br>TWO YEARS$35.00 <br>THREE =
YEARS $50.00</p>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Native use of flintlock vs. percussion guns
Date: 22 Nov 1998 11:54:25 EST

As far as native use , flints were perfered. it was easier to find a piece of
useable flint, than to get caps.
                                                                                                                                                                            Ron Pathkiller



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: To many e-mails
Date: 22 Nov 1998 08:01:59 -0800

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I just deleted 25 e-mails that one person had sent one right after the
other 24 of them could have been sent to the person it was addressed to
there, was very little historical value to the mail which this list is
suppose to be for.  Now I am not trying to get people pissed off but if the
shoe fits wear it.  I open every e-mail that comes my way and I love
reading about historical stuff.  But this is not a chat line.  Unless Dean
has changed his format.  Let use the list for what it is supposed to
before.
Come on I am waiting for the come backs that can justify the use of this
list in that manor. Later Jon T

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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I just deleted 25 e-mails that one =
person had sent one right after the other 24 of them could have been =
sent to the person it was addressed to there, was very little historical =
value to the mail which this list is suppose to be for.  Now I am =
not trying to get people pissed off but if the shoe fits wear it. =
 I open every e-mail that comes my way and I love reading about =
historical stuff.  But this is not a chat line.  Unless Dean =
has changed his format.  Let use the list for what it is supposed =
to before.   <br>Come on I am waiting for the come backs that =
can justify the use of this list in that manor. Later Jon T</p>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Guy looking for help.
Date: 26 Nov 1998 23:47:05 EST

Greetings Folks,

   Below find two messages sent to me in correspondence from a guy in West
Virginia who is looking for help in getting a rendezvous together.  Anybody in
the area who might want to get together with him, or has a club in the area
that might be interested in getting together with him about getting this
together please respond to him directly at:  [e-mail]

                                                    Longshot

<< I have 2000 acres of mountains in WV with a 17,500 sq. ft. log lodge with
restaurant lounge and all the amenities, 50 unit RV park and all the trappings
ect. Would like to organize a a spring and fall rendevou each year. Are there
any commercial operations who manage a thing like this or where would a fellow
start? Any help would be appreciated. >>

<< Firewood we got and portalets can be rented. The bath house has four
showers
but we can rig up more with the water buffalo and tents we have. With any
kind of organization the field in front of the RV park could handle several
hundred wigwams or what ever. We can make arrangements for horses (we have
over 30 mile of trail riding and available and in use now.)
 You have my permission to notify anybody of my desires about a rendevou.
crb >>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnston Reburial
Date: 01 Jan 1998 00:28:41 -0600

I have a copy of the flyer I got it from yellow feather ---contact me
offline and we will work out getting you a copy---
HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:07:10 -0600 "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>A couple months ago there was discussion about Johnston and his
>reburial
>at Cody, Wyo.  There were mentions of some articles done on it in T &
>LR.  If anyone has citations or could run me copies of these articles
>I
>would gladley pay copy and mailing costs.  Also, there was mention
>that
>the AMM, who I belive was heavily involved in the reburial, put out a
>pamphlet on the event.  If this is true I would be interested in a
>copy
>of this document too.  If anyone can help me with these I would be
>greatful.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Matt Despain
>University of Oklahoma
>[e-mail]
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: New Wooden Barrels
Date: 26 Nov 1998 18:28:31 -0700


-----Original Message-----


>Mike,
>
>There are several that carry wooden kegs, buy oak not the bass wood or
other
>woods advertised, Track Of The Wolf, Panther Primitives, Log Cabin
>Shop(special order), seem to all handle the same barrel with the steel
>loops - riveted. Good price and will last as long as you will want to use
>them. Have a 2 1/2 and a 5 gal that were purchased at Friendship in the
late
>1950's and still use them.
>
>I have purchased several limb rapped (bands) handmade barrels that seem
very
>fragile, plus being very pricey, use them for displays or show and tells,
>don't think they would take a lot of hard use like the other barrels. "Hard
>use" being packed on horseback, canoe or even in the back of a truck going
>and coming from an outing.
>
>Always seems the more expensive items, no matter how careful you are, are
>the things to take a beating!
>
>Buck
>
>-----------------------
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Thursday, November 26, 1998 1:29 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: New Wooden Barrels
>
>
>>I am looking for a source (economical) of new wooden barrels for a
display,
>>sized from small to large.
>>
>>Do you have any idea where to look?
>>
>>Mike Hoyt
>>
>>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: howdy
Date: 26 Nov 1998 18:28:14 -0700


-----Original Message-----


>Bill,
>
>Your purchase of a Second Model Brown Bess , would fit early fur trade,
>Charles E. Hanson, Jr. and several of us have talked about the use of
>military musket and how far west did they go. According to Charley, he felt
>that there were more of these type weapons that one would realize, his
>reasoning was many received their musket as part payment when their time
was
>up, or just left and took it with them. Plus they had eaten and slept with
>it for a long period of time and handling, maintance and use was second
>hand. Not everyone could afford a fancy gun, with all the other equipage
>needed.
>
>What's funny about this, is when we first started talking about muskets in
>the fur trade, Charles was finishing his book on the Hawken rifle; "The
>Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History", around 1977 or 1978.
>
>At that time most were pushing the Hawken as being the only correct gun for
>the mountain man; Baird with Buckskin Report, Richey with Backwoodsman and
>several others. Tradeguns were for breeds or Native American, or French;
boy
>has that one turned around as more research became available, thanks to Mr.
>Hanson, etc.
>
>On the AMM page take a look at my personal page on tradeguns, mention
>muskets (Brown Bess, etc.) < http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html
>>
>
>I'm sure that others on this list can add to the use on you gun in the fur
>trade and who else may have started out with one, this is a very good
>information gathering source, so keep notes.
>
>Buck
>-----------------------------------
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jennifer & Bill Lynch <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Thursday, November 26, 1998 1:29 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: howdy
>
>
>>howdy,
>>i came across your tracks on the internet and was hopin' you wouldn't
>>mind me askin a question. i try to be as historically accurate as
>>possible towards the early "american" fur trade era. outta fort osage
>>missouri and all. i was lookin for a gun that would overall flexibilty
>>when it came to time periods. i recently acquired a second model brown
>>bess, for price and because after my research i felt it was probably the
>>most common and practical (cuz i hunt varmints that walk and fly). i
>>figured the bess would have been used by trappers during the turn of the
>>century and well on into the brief "heyday". the only absolute
>>documentation i have is of manuel lisa carryin' one up the missouri. but
>>of course the war of 1812 brought alot of these smoothebores into the
>>northern rockies too. but ya sure don't hear much about 'em at
>>rendezveous. i'm very aware of the popularity of the northwest trade gun
>>and heard it may even predate the bess. i guess i'm just wonderin' if i
>>might need to trade for one of them. if you have any documentaion or
>>advice i would much appreciate it.
>>bill lynch
>>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Wooden Barrels
Date: 26 Nov 1998 16:22:15 -0700

Mike,

There are several that carry wooden kegs, buy oak not the bass wood or other
woods advertised, Track Of The Wolf, Panther Primitives, Log Cabin
Shop(special order), seem to all handle the same barrel with the steel
loops - riveted. Good price and will last as long as you will want to use
them. Have a 2 1/2 and a 5 gal that were purchased at Friendship in the late
1950's and still use them.

I have purchased several limb rapped (bands) handmade barrels that seem very
fragile, plus being very pricey, use them for displays or show and tells,
don't think they would take a lot of hard use like the other barrels. "Hard
use" being packed on horseback, canoe or even in the back of a truck going
and coming from an outing.

Always seems the more expensive items, no matter how careful you are, are
the things to take a beating!

Buck

-----------------------
-----Original Message-----


>I am looking for a source (economical) of new wooden barrels for a display,
>sized from small to large.
>
>Do you have any idea where to look?
>
>Mike Hoyt
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: howdy
Date: 26 Nov 1998 16:10:27 -0700

Bill,

Your purchase of a Second Model Brown Bess , would fit early fur trade,
Charles E. Hanson, Jr. and several of us have talked about the use of
military musket and how far west did they go. According to Charley, he felt
that there were more of these type weapons that one would realize, his
reasoning was many received their musket as part payment when their time was
up, or just left and took it with them. Plus they had eaten and slept with
it for a long period of time and handling, maintance and use was second
hand. Not everyone could afford a fancy gun, with all the other equipage
needed.

What's funny about this, is when we first started talking about muskets in
the fur trade, Charles was finishing his book on the Hawken rifle; "The
Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History", around 1977 or 1978.

At that time most were pushing the Hawken as being the only correct gun for
the mountain man; Baird with Buckskin Report, Richey with Backwoodsman and
several others. Tradeguns were for breeds or Native American, or French; boy
has that one turned around as more research became available, thanks to Mr.
Hanson, etc.

On the AMM page take a look at my personal page on tradeguns, mention
muskets (Brown Bess, etc.) < http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html
>

I'm sure that others on this list can add to the use on you gun in the fur
trade and who else may have started out with one, this is a very good
information gathering source, so keep notes.

Buck
-----Original Message-----


>howdy,
>i came across your tracks on the internet and was hopin' you wouldn't
>mind me askin a question. i try to be as historically accurate as
>possible towards the early "american" fur trade era. outta fort osage
>missouri and all. i was lookin for a gun that would overall flexibilty
>when it came to time periods. i recently acquired a second model brown
>bess, for price and because after my research i felt it was probably the
>most common and practical (cuz i hunt varmints that walk and fly). i
>figured the bess would have been used by trappers during the turn of the
>century and well on into the brief "heyday". the only absolute
>documentation i have is of manuel lisa carryin' one up the missouri. but
>of course the war of 1812 brought alot of these smoothebores into the
>northern rockies too. but ya sure don't hear much about 'em at
>rendezveous. i'm very aware of the popularity of the northwest trade gun
>and heard it may even predate the bess. i guess i'm just wonderin' if i
>might need to trade for one of them. if you have any documentaion or
>advice i would much appreciate it.
>bill lynch
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: howdy
Date: 26 Nov 1998 13:42:50 +0000

Bill, The Bess was readily available as 'surplus'.  Any commoner, who
needed a good, serviceable arm would have access to these arms.  I know
several Mtn. Men who carry a brown bess.  If you are happy with it, I'd
advise carrying it with pride.  Hardtack

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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Wooden Barrels
Date: 26 Nov 1998 13:45:26 +0000

Mike, Jas Townsend & son carry barrels.  Whether this is the cheapest
source, I don't know.  check 'em out at
http://www.jastown.com/                  Hardtack

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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Native use of flintlock vs. percussion guns
Date: 27 Nov 1998 20:28:39 -0800

[e-mail] wrote:

> As far as native use , flints were perfered. it was easier to find a piece of
> useable flint, than to get caps.

That sounds more like speculation than documentable historical fact.  The Indians and mountain men were in the arms race of the day and the choice of weapons was a life and death decision for them.  It was well documented by men of their day and discussed here previously the reasons why flintlocks came up short.  Flintlocks, while they are pretty and
nostolgic, are not all weather rifles that one would want to stake ones life on under inclimate weather conditions especially high winds and heavy rain.  I'm not saying percussion was the total answer because they were quickly replace by fixed ammunition (rimfire and centerfire).  In the days when you life depended on your ability to defend yourself or get
game, any man would want the best weapon available.  To me the often heard line about being able to pick up flint anywhere as opposed to having to bring along caps is a bunch of BS.  You darn sure are not going to find gunpowder lying around the plains any easier than percussion caps.  You had to buy powder and bring it along and keep it dry, etc.  And if you
ran out of powder it didn't much matter if you had a flint or percussion rifle.  What I'm getting at is that it was no more of a problem to obtain caps, keep them dry, etc. than it was to protect you powder and keep it dry.  Once percussion caps were commonly available flintlocks were converted or replaced by men whose life and livelyhood depended on reliable
functioning of their weapons.

                   Dennis



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Percussion evolution
Date: 27 Nov 1998 13:32:44 EST

Would the change to percussion from flintlocks have originated in the East,
where the rifles were first built, or from the frontier, where they were
coming into wider and more urgent use?  Was the frontier the trendsetting
"California" of its day?  I heard St. Louis mentioned.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnston Letters & Stories
Date: 27 Nov 1998 08:55:01 -0700

In my local library is a book on the history of Red Lodge County here in
MOntana.  In it are letters from John Johnston  (Jerimiah Johnson) in which
he rebukes having ever eaten  the liver of a human, and also tells he never
had an Indian woman for a wife or otherwise.  And goes on to relate how the
stories originated.
I contacted the people who compiled the book and although one has passed
away, the other has given me permission to  print the article word for
word.
While doing that, I put so much information on "one page" that my computer
wont let me do any changes.  Now I have a chopped up article that I don't
think is good enough to post.
I can do a lot of things well, but computers isn't one of them.
If I could retype the article, which is quite lengthy, and send it to
someone who could post it on their site and mail it out in multiple
mailings, something I can't figure out how to do, I would be willing to do
so.  It is a very interesting  article, some parts quite amusing and most
eye opening concerning the Legend we have all come to admire.
Or could this qualify as something to post on the AMM site????
                         Longtrail


Ps.  Geewhiz Jon, ya made me blush.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California Rdvs Schedule
Date: 26 Nov 1998 23:18:52 +0000

Ho the list....  does any one know of a listing on the web for California
(southern) Rendezvous for 1999?  Any help would be appreciated.
Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnston Reburial
Date: 01 Jan 1998 00:50:03 -0600

john t
I have the flyer---would like to have a xerox of the article---i may have
it in one of my old t & lt but would have to dig---could you send me a
copy or send it to my aol account e-mail is [e-mail]

HAWK
MICHAEL PIERCE
1-813-771-1815
E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]

On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 06:17:28 -0800 "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_01BE183B.47113640
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>I have the T&LR that has the article about J Johnston and his reburial
>at
>Cody WY.  I am going to the Pacific Beaches this weekend and will scan
>it
>when I get home next week if I don't please poke me with a stick and
>I'll
>do it.  The memory is not as good as it use to be.  Or maybe I
>remember
>only what I want to.  Later Jon T
>
>----------
>: From: S.M.Despain-1 <[e-mail]>
>: To: [e-mail]
>: Subject: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnston Reburial
>: Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:07 AM
>:
>: A couple months ago there was discussion about Johnston and his
>reburial
>: at Cody, Wyo.  There were mentions of some articles done on it in T
>&
>: LR.  If anyone has citations or could run me copies of these
>articles I
>: would gladley pay copy and mailing costs.  Also, there was mention
>that
>: the AMM, who I belive was heavily involved in the reburial, put out
>a
>: pamphlet on the event.  If this is true I would be interested in a
>copy
>: of this document too.  If anyone can help me with these I would be
>: greatful.
>:
>: Thanks,
>:
>: Matt Despain
>: University of Oklahoma
>: [e-mail]
>:
>------=_NextPart_000_01BE183B.47113640
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
>color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I have the T&LR that has the =
>article about J Johnston and his reburial at Cody WY.  I am going
>=
>to the Pacific Beaches this weekend and will scan it when I get home =
>next week if I don't please poke me with a stick and I'll do it. =
> The memory is not as good as it use to be.  Or maybe I =
>remember only what I want to.  Later Jon T =
> <br><br>----------<br>: From: S.M.Despain-1 <<font =
>color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
>color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
>color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
>color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnston =
>Reburial<br>: Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:07 AM<br>: <br>: A =
>couple months ago there was discussion about Johnston and his =
>reburial<br>: at Cody, Wyo.  There were mentions of some articles
>=
>done on it in T &<br>: LR.  If anyone has citations or could
>=
>run me copies of these articles I<br>: would gladley pay copy and =
>mailing costs.  Also, there was mention that<br>: the AMM, who I
>=
>belive was heavily involved in the reburial, put out a<br>: pamphlet
>on =
>the event.  If this is true I would be interested in a copy<br>:
>of =
>this document too.  If anyone can help me with these I would =
>be<br>: greatful.<br>: <br>: Thanks,<br>: <br>: Matt Despain<br>: =
>University of Oklahoma<br>: <font =
>color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000"><br>:
>=
></p>
></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
>------=_NextPart_000_01BE183B.47113640--
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish
Date: 28 Nov 1998 18:09:14 -0700

Lee,

I haven't had time to converse on the list for about a month, so this reply
about the Scottish and other mountain men is belated.

Go back and look at Alexander Ross's two-page subjective evaluation of the
different kinds of mountain men, their character, and their abilities.    He
grades Canadian, Sandwich Islanders, Iroquois, half breeds, voyaguers, free
men, and others -- but he doesn't,  in the same manner, pigeon hole
Scottish,  Americans or French, per se.  Why not?  I'm not sure.

Ross is careful, as you have oberseved of other Scottish journal keepers to
carefully identify Indians by tribe, rather than just lumping them as
Indians.  However, Ross's classification of Canadians seems to violate the
norm you've described.

He heaps praise on both Canadians and voyaguers as to both their character
and the quality of their abilities in the fur trade.  He does not lump them
into one category.  It is also interesting to note that the people Ross
lists as Canadians or voyaguers make up a very small percentage of the
population engaged in the fur trade on the Columbia, according to Ross's own
estimates of the numbers.  Half-breeds make up a larger percentage and he
doen't not call the half-breeds Canadians, even though he mentions that many
of the half-breeds come from near Montreal.  This leads me to believe, that
Alexander Ross, as one, must be lumping Anglo-Saxon French Canadians with
those he calls simply Canadians.

Ross's classification of human beings doesn't seem to jive with the other
sources of information that you have read.  Perhaps Ross is different
because his fur trade perspective is almost exclusively Western and he
started in the West.  Most of the other Scottish and Brittish journal
keepers began their careers in Eastern Canada where populations of
French-speaking Canadians would have been a much more dominant part of the
fur-trade culture.

Dave

He praises
-----Original Message-----


>On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, David Tippets wrote:
>> the West are facinating.  Let's probe a little deeper into the concept of
>> Scottish mountain men.  The answer to MacRaith's original question can be
a
>> simple as some Scottish names, or more complex if you put those Scottsmen
in
>> the context of the political and corporate intrigue of their day.
>
>Hallo Again
>
>I have noticed in my readings, when I'm reading American accounts, the
>nationality of the subject appears to be either "white man"  or typified
>by race, whereas reading Canadian or British journals, they are very
>careful to call folks by their orignal nationality.... Scott, Irish, etc,
>and when they refer to Indians, almost invariably they refer to the
>tribe... Kutenai, Piegan, what have you.  Even the 3rd or 4th
>generation Frenchmen of Montreal were refered to as French, and not simply
>Canadian.
>
>I'm wondering if this is not due to the fact that by that time (1810 or
>so), the U.S. was a proud young Nation, and the Canadas was still a
>colony?
>
>I still have a lot of reading to do, so maybe this is an abberation.
>
>As for Astor, I always felt kinda bad about his losing Astoria for pennies
>on the dollar during the war of 1812... then I found out he did the same
>thing to his Nor-wester partners later when the American Congress outlawed
>foriegn owned business a couple of years later (and they were both
>partners in the Southwest(?) Company). He also warned the
>Canadians about the impending war of 1812 so his business partners
>(British) could seize the border fur depots and save his furs...
>
>Not uncommon bedfellows, war and profit.
>
>Regards
>
>Lee Newbill
>Viola, Idaho
>email at [e-mail]
>Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
>http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
>
>



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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Blunderbuss wanted...
Date: 28 Nov 1998 19:41:47 -0500

I'm writingthis for a friend of mine.  She wants to surprize her hubby with
a blunderbuss for his birthday, but doesn't know where to get them.  I told
her I'd ask on here.  You can private the mail to me so as not to take up
space on the List...  Thanks alot :))

[e-mail]

SeanBear



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
Date: 28 Nov 1998 19:24:45 EST

Dear MtMan List Members,

    While reading through the clothing query responses from some of you, I have
noticed a common ground between us regarding the convenience and satisfaction
of owning and using clothing and other related items that are customized to
fit individual needs.  The main reasons, I have noticed, for learning to sew
clothing items are to save money, get custom made goods, and quality materials
and craftsmanship.

    I am very interested in anything associated with MtMan clothing gear and how
it relates to the MtMan way of life and how you, specifically, craft your own
replica clothing.  Thank you very much for your responses.  I continue to look
forward to hearing from each of you.

Best regards,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer    Sewing Design Company
[e-mail]







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From: "The Windhams" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California Rdvs Schedule
Date: 28 Nov 1998 13:02:15 -0800

Randal,
keep an eye open around the first of the year on our web page, we'll be up
dating so. cal rondies about  1-1-99 also contact me off line and I'll give
you some other webs that keep track of the do'ns here in Cal.
http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html
Rick

----------
> From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California Rdvs Schedule
> Date: Thursday, November 26, 1998 3:18 PM
>
> Ho the list....  does any one know of a listing on the web for California
> (southern) Rendezvous for 1999?  Any help would be appreciated.
> Hardtack
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>



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From: Bill Maddox <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tanning deer hides.
Date: 28 Nov 1998 11:25:07 -0600

I am new at this and don't know anything about tanning deer hides.  In
fact, I don't even hunt.  I am the Scoutmaster of a Boy Scout Troop in
Central Illinois.  The first half of deer season is over but the second
half is the first weekend of December.  We were camping last weekend in
a large woodland park, where deer hunting is not allowed but where it
could be heard going on.  One boy asked what they did with the hides and
I said that I did not know.  I discovered that the local shops that
prepare the fresh deer, discard the hides.  One of the boys wondered if
we could get some and tan them for Scout displays.  Can we do this and
do we have the time to get ready?  I have a large garden at my house
that still have the 6 foot tall tomato stakes still in the ground.  Can
I make a rack for tanning here and what supplies do I need?  I gues what
is more important is, HOW DO I DO IT?  I can follow directions and am a
persistent person.  Remember, we are neophytes at this and will have to
purchase what we need.  NO, WE DON'T HAVE DEER BRAINS.

Thanks,

Bill Maddox
Scoutmaster BSA Troop #198
Pekin, IL  [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning deer hides.
Date: 29 Nov 1998 20:01:27 EST

Bill,

You're biting off quite a project for Scouts. Hope they are more enthused than
my troop. Suggest you get the book "Deerskins to Buckskins" by Matt Richards.
Do a search at Amazon.com or BarnesandNoble.com. It's a great book on tanning
deerskins.

Todd Glover



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Designing and constructing replica clothing, please read
Date: 29 Nov 1998 18:33:31 EST

Dear List Friends,

    I just thought this might help clarify: the only objective for seriously
considering the crafting of one's own period "replica clothing" (or any
clothing) is to achieve a level of perfection in materials, workmanship and
performance impossible by other means.  There is no room in my schedule, and I
doubt in yours, for the investment of valuable time and resources (yours and
mine) which results in substandard or inferior clothing equipment that causes
endless grief, misery, and disappointment.

    I am suggesting the consideration of crafting your own replica clothing gear
because of the superior result which can be achieved only through careful and
thoughtful selection of materials and construction techniques.  We sew to
design and create a custom garment that will work for our own unique and
individual requirements, with careful attention to authenticity in the case of
replica clothing.

    When you choose to sew, you are choosing to improve your standards without
terrifying your pocketbook.  I hope this helps to explain . . .

Best regards,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
Product Designer       Apparel Designer       Sewing Author
[e-mail]







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From: Dave Parks <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Tanning Deer Hides
Date: 28 Nov 1998 03:32:33 -0800

Bill Maddox asked about tanning deer hides. The following URL will
give you some taxidermy suppliers, for the chemicals needed as well as
instructions. Hope this helps,    Manywounds

            http://www.walnutcreekhardwood.com/links.html



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From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning deer hides.
Date: 29 Nov 1998 14:53:37 +0000

Bill, I sent a message back last night, must be lost in the ether...
H'yar we go again.  First , reference material.  Check out web site
http://www.lib.ucon.edu/NativeTech      .   Info on tanning.  Next, check
out these books; 'deerskins into buckskins' by Matt Richards  ISBN
0-9658672-0-x,  'Wet-scrape Braintanned Buckskin' by Edholm & Wilder
ISBN 0-9654965-4-6.  I have always used cow brains, which I obtain at
local Mexican food meat markets.  I prefer wet-scrape method of tanning.
No rack is required, only a fleshing beam- I use a piece of PVC sewer
pipe.  I use a draw knife (back edge) as my main scraper.  Soak hide, add
lye or wood ash to water to facilitate  hair slippage.  Drape hide over
beam and scrape off hair and all membrane on hair side.  Scrape off all
meat, fat and membrane from flesh side.  While resting resoak hide, to
take a long break put in freezer.  The hides I've done were done a little
here, a little there, with long 'rests' in the freezer.  get the hides
when you can, store in the freezer until ready to work.  Once hide is
very clean of all membrane, etc... soak in a brain 'soup' for hours.
Ring out better than you've ever rung anything before. Rinse and ring,
then work the hide until dry.  By work I mean, ring, stretch, pull, puch,
etc... over and again until dry.  You should end up with a soft, pliable
piece of leather.  If it is not, go back and repeat 'X' processes.  When
it is soft and pliable, smoke it.  I set up a canvas smoke house with my
small wood stove.  The smoke will reintroduce oils into the hide.  These
oils will help it mantain its pliability after being wet , etc...  I
realize that this message will probably raise more questions than it has
answered.  I also know that there are MANY techniques to tanning a hide.
Hence the reference materials noted.  Have fun with the boys, make sure
they keep their hands clean.  Avoid brain solution on open wounds, etc...
Bacterial infections are a concern if Hygiene is not practiced.  Any
questions....?  Just post again.  Many of us have tanned hides, and have
opinions onTHE way to do it.   Hope this of some help.   Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Phil Petersen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning deer hides.
Date: 29 Nov 1998 10:14:55 -0600

Well Longtrail.  Here is another opportunity to  excel.  Or should I send
him the hundred or so conversations you had with me?

Stubborn
-----Original Message-----


>I am new at this and don't know anything about tanning deer hides.  In
>fact, I don't even hunt.  I am the Scoutmaster of a Boy Scout Troop in
>Central Illinois.  The first half of deer season is over but the second
>half is the first weekend of December.  We were camping last weekend in
>a large woodland park, where deer hunting is not allowed but where it
>could be heard going on.  One boy asked what they did with the hides and
>I said that I did not know.  I discovered that the local shops that
>prepare the fresh deer, discard the hides.  One of the boys wondered if
>we could get some and tan them for Scout displays.  Can we do this and
>do we have the time to get ready?  I have a large garden at my house
>that still have the 6 foot tall tomato stakes still in the ground.  Can
>I make a rack for tanning here and what supplies do I need?  I gues what
>is more important is, HOW DO I DO IT?  I can follow directions and am a
>persistent person.  Remember, we are neophytes at this and will have to
>purchase what we need.  NO, WE DON'T HAVE DEER BRAINS.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bill Maddox
>Scoutmaster BSA Troop #198
>Pekin, IL  [e-mail]
>



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Snow Shoeing
Date: 29 Nov 1998 01:33:33 EST

I am probably going to get some snow shoes for Christmas and need some gear
help/advice.  Where can I find a pattern or instructions for making authentic
bindings?  What is the best leather to use for bindings?  Or is there a better
material for bindings?  What are other items that are good to have when
pre-1840 snow shoeing?  I will be wearing them mostly when persuing small game
in the winter woods.  Is there a type of gator that would be authentic for a
transitional longhunter (1785-1795)?  What are some good sources of
information on gear for cold weather jaunting?  Anyway, that is more than
enough questions for now.  Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving.  Thanks.

Grant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning deer hides.
Date: 28 Nov 1998 21:28:38 -0800

Bill Maddox wrote:
>
> I am new at this and don't know anything about tanning deer hides.

Bill,  I tried to contact you off the list, but it bounced back, so I'll
try this route.  Don't salt the hides.  To save them until you are ready
for them, roll them up and freeze them, or get all the flesh and fat off
and let them dry stiff as a board.  Then they will keep until you are
ready.  If you salt them brain tanning won't work.  You don't need deer
brains.  Pork or cow brains work, and they can be ordered from the
butcher shop.  Tanning is an involved process and there are a number of
books on it, plus I have a video on the dry scrape method for sale.
$29.95 plus $3 postage.  It's a two hour video, and I think it beats a
book.  If you are interested I'll send you the address.  There are other
videos also, and you might be able to find either a book or video at the
library.  Lets see if I can find you a link to a store.
        http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd/index.html
Check him out, he sells books and videos.     DN



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Native use of flintlock vs. percussion guns
Date: 28 Nov 1998 20:54:00 -0800

Lets see, first someone said  "As far as native use , flints were
perfered. it was easier to find a piece of useable flint, than to get
caps."
    Then someone else said  "That sounds more like speculation than
documentable historical fact.  The Indians and mountain men were in the
arms race of the day and the choice of weapons was a life and death
decision for them."  Well shucks, now I'm going to have to add my
thoughts on this.  It seems to me that suggesting the Indians and Mtn.
men were in an arms race borders on speculation at the best, or at the
worst transposing 20th century thinking onto people of the 19th
century.  I own at least 50 books on the fur trade, and probably half
that many on antique guns, and I'm sorry, in my reading an arms race
isn't there.  I'm not saying that there weren't fights and stealing, be
that as it may, the Mountain Men and the Indians weren't at war, and in
fact they preferred to trade with each other.
  Then it was said "It was well documented by men of their day and
discussed here previously the reasons why flintlocks came up short.
Flintlocks, while they are pretty and nostolgic, are not all weather
rifles that one would want to stake ones life on under inclimate weather
conditions especially high winds and heavy rain."  Now that hurts my
flintlock loving soul.  What makes anyone think that a caplock rifle is
water proof?  It aint folks, and in fact a flintlock handles water
better than a caplock.  I live in rainey southwestern Oregon.  I've
killed a dandy buck in a lashing rain storm using a flintlock, just to
prove I could do it.  I've seen trail walks shot in rain storms and by
golly caplocks have to be well cared for or they will fail to fire just
as often as a flinter.  That's where wide brimmed hats come into use.
It provides a roof over the lock area.  One real eye opener is to go
watch a trappers run, which is a shooting match that requires among
other things, setting traps in water.  The trap is set, and then the gun
loaded and fired while the hands are still wet.  The shoot I watched
required three traps to be set, and most of the caplocks failed to fire
on the first, second or third shot due damp caps, but all of the
flintlocks fired all three shots.  Where can I find some of the "well
documented by the men of their day" remarks, I'd like to read them.
Then it was said "I'm not saying percussion was the total answer because
they were quickly replace by fixed ammunition (rimfire and centerfire).
In the days when you life depended on your ability to defend yourself or
get game, any man would want the best weapon available."  Hmmmmmm?
According to my books the big push to develop a breech loader was so the
gun could be used horseback.  It seems that muzzleloaders are difficult
to load on a galloping horse.  In fact the first firearm that was truly
useable horseback was the Colt Walker.  That's a six shooter that shoots
what was then a rifle charge.
    Lets see, I think I'll snip a bit of this and finish with what he says
here, "And if you ran out of powder it didn't much matter if you had a
flint or percussion rifle.  What I'm getting at is that it was no more
of a problem to obtain caps, keep them dry, etc. than it was to protect
you powder and keep it dry."  Right on, you speak the truth.  But I'd
like to point out that caps are just one more thing to keep dry, and
once wet, they don't work.  Flints don't have to be kept dry and you can
also start a fire with the lock.  Black powder that gets wet can be
dried out and it isn't as good, but it still works.  Wet caps, and you
are screwed.
    Hey, I'm not trying to be smart, or stomp on anyone's toes.  This is
just some stuff that I've noticed over the years, and I'm old enough to
have a contrary opinion.  DN



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning deer hides.
Date: 28 Nov 1998 21:07:47 -0800 (PST)

On Sat, 28 Nov 1998, Bill Maddox wrote:
> I am new at this and don't know anything about tanning deer hides.  In

Hallo Bill

Check out the following two resources

http://www.braintan.com

good advice and books.

and  http://www.healingearth.com/ which is Gil Schluter's page with a
section on brain tanning.  Gil is not only an accomplished tanner, but is
more than willing to help with problems in that field.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186