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Internet Message Format | 1998-09-30 | 517KB

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle
Date: 01 Sep 1998 15:37:43 -0400

HERE IS A EVALUATION AND SUMATION AND BACKGROUND FOR LEMAN GUNS

The two books by dillin and kendig are probably some of the best
information on guns out ther and most collectors and builders and such
believe them to near being the bible on early guns .

I have several books that show LEMAN rifles so here is a few with pages
and figure numbers---and such along with my comments and BS added--to
sturr everyone up

1.  The pensylvania Kentuckey Rifle      Author Henry j. Kauffman
library of congress card # 59-14376  by stackpole books Harrisburg
Pa.17105
    Leman, henry   page 24 plate 23 pg40 and 120 plate     # 228,
229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 237
NOTE: these are all percussion guns on page 24 it refers to special order
flints primarily on trade guns---none shown

2.  The kentuckey rifle       Author  John G. W. Dillen  library of
congress  card# 74-3685 Published by George Schumway publisher  r. d. 7
York Pa 17402

NOTE:  several lemans are refered to in this book this is what makes for
confusion for a lot of people---they are listed as follows--

Leman ---- page-50 (flint rifle), page  51,  page 77(type of rifleing),
page  124 (target and loads), page 155(half stock indian trade guns),
Page  187 (description of types of lemans)(warns of rifles made from
leman parts)
Leman H.F.---page  77  (shows rifleing type)
Leman and Lescher--- page 49 (historical background)
(IMPORTANT)
Leman Peter  ---page 27, 43  (the swiss) (worked in the 17oo's probably
Henrys father---

3.  Kentuckey patch boxes and barrel marks  author Roy f.
chandler--library of congress number 70-176268

pages 244, 245, 246  (shows patch box other than on the indian trade
trade rifles)(or half stocks.

4.  The plains rifle   autho Charles e. Hanson  library of congress#
59-14379  ISBN #0-88227-015-015X
 pages 8, 10, 73,75,76,100

shows lemon worked for tyron and apprenticed under malcomb fordney  gives
a historical perspective comparing to other plains rifles---

5.  the trade rifle sketch book      Author charles e.hanson   pages 38
thru 41---gives the basic contours and outlines of the leman trade guns.
(PRIMARILY INDIAN TRADE GUNS HALF STOCK)

6.  Thoughts of the kentuckey rifle in it's golden age   Author Joe
kindig jr  library of congress # 61-23719  sbn # 87387-033-6

pages 23, 131

note page 23 questions the existance of the man named leman before 1750
there are records that prove leman apprentived  with malcom fordney in
lancaster in 1825 @ age 20 -- this states no leman' s can be documented
before 1825  even thou they exist -(NOTE:  PROBABLY LEMAN (THE SWISS) or
H. E. Leman's father or earlier relative)---page 131 documents
apprentiship with Malcomb fordney and that is the reason why those flint
guns that are built by leman sometimes closely resemble a fordney in
contour and outline  All known flints were of a special order variety and
can be dated 1825 to 1830 and  were probably made while leman was a
apprentice or shortly there after

THERE ARE YOUR REFERENCES AND NOW FOR MY COMMENTS:

You can find the name Leman in almost ever gun book written he was a
marvel in how many guns (SUPOSITIVELY ) he produced---(as a company not
as a individual)---have only seen 3 or 4 hand signed lemans  most are
production stamps  those that are hand signed are in the patchboxes and
barrel marks and possibly are flint but i doubt that---in the 1830 and 40
and later not many people wanted flint guns---thus the assumption that a
flint was a special order--for 10 half stocks you might see 1 full stock
of those that exist today---leman hired a bunch of people and produced
parts and sold a lot of parts---unless a gun is stamped with the words
h.e. leman lancaster pa on the top barrel flat on one line  it probably
was a production gun and not specifically made by H.E. Leman  (NOW that
statement will probably get me some flack but that is my feeling)  those
stamps that are stacked with more than one line are the production guns,
or guns made from the parts made by H.E. Leman and company----all of his
production guns were cheepies and intended for trade on the fronteer-
the quality ones have a one line stamp and say more than Just Leman---It
is my feeling that the word "Leman " stamped by its self was a gun made
from parts and not by H.E. leman or his company-- it was a style of gun
just as Tyrone and company---made a certain style---

the only flint gun that i have seen pictures of looks like a malcomb
fordney gun---only a lot simpeler and less trim work---

I hope this is what you want and i have been of some help to you--  my
conclusion is that most guns marked leman were parts guns and cheepies
except for only a few and darn few were flint.   I have a fordney gun and
use it's contours when i make a flint rifle gun that someone wants to
call a leman--the other makers seem to think that they can take a
production leman gun and add a flint lock and you have a flint leman---NO
SUCH THING BUBBA---not in my thinking and research---hope someone out
there can sway my opinion---have seen several modern made indian trade
guns that were suposively Leman style---my comment to that is
BULL---would like to see some well documented flints that were lemans
that dont follow the fordney lines---fordney was a real stickler on his
form and contour and all of his apprentices nearly always followed his
lines if they made a flint--guns.   flints that dont follow these
contours and forms  are probably back restored guns or guns that the drum
was removed and plugged and then a flint lock added after the fact to
make the original more valuable and possibly older---remember the date of
Leman's apprenticeship---1825-- going into the Percussion time frame
more---

SUMMATION:
a flint leman that doesnt follow the fordney lines is a parts gun that
upon repair the percussion lock was removed and replaced with a flint and
not done by H.E. Leman but by some other gunsmith---

If there is any question contact Lee Good in clarimore ok at the Davis
museum and see what his comments are-- they dont have a flint leman that
doesnt follow the fordney lines-- only one flint leman---largest
collection of Muzzle Loading Rifles in the united states---normally has
every variety and has a hell of a research library and database---

I WELCOME YOUR INPUT AND COMMENTS---AND HOPE SOMEONE OUT THERE CAN GIVE
ME A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON LEMAN---OTHER THAN WHAT I HAVE DOCUMENTED
AND STATED.
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 23:09:27 -0700 "Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>If you would be so kind as to more fully describe the two books
>(dillen &
>kindig) you reference it would sure help me research for the firearm
>I'm
>intending to build/buy.
>Thanks !
>
>Tom
>
>([e-mail])
>
>
>
>Michael Pierce wrote:
>
>> James drop me a note off line and tell me what you want I might be
>able
>> to help you out---just finishing up a H.E. Leman half stock
>restoration
>> job.  can send you some pictures of it if you like---the only flint
>Leman
>> I have seen is in dillen's book and talked about in the kindig book.
>> Henry leman learned his trade from Malcomb Fordney in 1830  re:pg 25
>> kindig  worked in lancaster pa-- made a lot of guns but all full
>stocks
>> differ from the fordney lines except the one in dillen's book.  what
>are
>> you looking for--one similar to fordney or a full stock trade type
>gun
>> except with a flint lock---you can also give me a call any time and
>we
>> will talk about it.
>>
>> If I cant make it I can send you to a couple of people that are
>reputable
>> and won't get to you.   remember a custom or a semi custom wont come
>> cheep.  I do all of my work by hand except for a bandsaw to cut the
>wood
>> and a router to cut the barrel channel.  I use no precarves and
>finish
>> them the same as the originals to include the staining---use no
>modern
>> spray finishes--all hand rubbed and hand applied---takes me about
>150 hrs
>> of labor minimum and closer to 200---Don steith has a precarve and
>so
>> does pecatonica river --have seen them and their quality is good but
>have
>> never tried to put one of their precarves together---would cut down
>on
>> the labor hrs.  I get most of my wood from freddy harrison in
>> Tennisee---remember good wood dont come cheep and neither does
>barrels
>> and locks---you are looking at about $600 outlay before you start if
>you
>> want a truly quality gun--REMEMBER WOOD MAKES A GUN BUT THE BARREL
>IS
>> WHAT MAKES IT SHOOT. AND THE LOCK IS WHAT MAKES IT DEPENDABLE.
>>
>> I normally put in silver toutch hole liners and usually furnish an
>extra
>> with the gun but have put in steel ones for some people who asked
>for it.
>>  GIVE ME A CALL AND WE CAN TALK---
>>
>>       "Hawk"
>> Michael Pierce
>> 854 Glenfield Dr.
>> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>>
>> On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:56:52 -0400 "James C. Zeigler"
>> <[e-mail]> writes:
>> >Hello:
>> >       I was wondering if anyone knows of a semi-custom maker
>> >
>> > of a H.E. Leman rife? I was thinking about getting a full-
>> >
>> > stock flinter.....Thanks in advance, Jim Z.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



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From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle
Date: 01 Sep 1998 19:28:51 -0500

Hawk,
  I read somewhere that Leman's first govt. contract was for a small number
of flint guns. For the life of me I can't remember where I read it. I have
seen one full stock Leman at a anique gun show. As you have said the name
on the top flat of the barrel was in one line. It was a big bore gun,
probably .60 cal., rather thick wristed with plain wood. It was a percusion
gun. Leman made rifles under several names for the govt. Indian Trade. One
that was, by todays standards quite bizzare, was THE CONESTOGA RIFLE WORKS.
I believe it is Kaufman's book that states these guns were stocked in curly
maple then painted with barn red paint to be more appealing ot the Indians.
I agree that there were probably very few flint Leman's. As far as I know
there isn't any of those first contract guns that survived.
 Pendleton



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From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Leman rifles
Date: 01 Sep 1998 16:37:46 +0100

Ditto the comments of Michael Pierce.  Twenty plus
years ago when everybody had to have a Hawken copy
to be a real mountain man, some people turned to
Leman copies as a cheaper alternative for a
"period" gun.  The Lemans that most people put out
back then were short-barrel  half or full stock
copies of Leman guns made primarily in the
post-1850 period (as were many of the Hawken
copies that people made and carried back then).
By now we (should) know better and not assume that
every gun drawn by Carl Russell for his book was
of a type available to a trapper in the 1820-30
west.  Leman guns surrendered by Sioux and
Cheyenne warriors in 1877 were not the same guns
carried by trappers in 1827.
For my money, if someone wants a good,
historically-supportable 1820-30 period gun, then
go for a generic Lancaster (often called the
"American" pattern in the 1830s) or an English
pattern gun.
Allen Chronister



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From: [e-mail] (A D)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle
Date: 02 Sep 1998 11:53:35 -0500 (CDT)

   New to this type of powder hunting, shooting. All I know off Mt. Men/
Tappers has come for noveles and Hoolywood, so that means I knew
nothing. Like the Hawkens rifle, I though everone had to have one, and
big fancy knifes. Please don't LOL. All my past expereance has been with
Civil War type guns and gear. But recently I got involved with NA Pow
wows and leather work. This time frame falls right in with my to make
stuff. I'm a disabadled Vet and make things for the joy of doing, never
ment to make any money at it.( Not SPAM just to let you know where I'm
coming from)
     I got my frist flinter becuse starting in our back yard, a U.S.
forest reserve starts. Only premitive wepones can be used, bows, and
flintlocks. I found this gun in a pawn shop, it's a short barreld
Traditions (SP) I coverd the rubber but plate, and part of the stock
with elk hide this also formed a "pocket" to hold fast charges. Got it
from Backwoodsman. With hunting season 57 days, bag limet 1 a day we
sould have plenty of meat and hides this year. LOL
    I have tried writing before but couldn't get through. Allso new to
these toys. Sorry about ridding in on a nother message.

D'Wolfen





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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1750s-1770s Firearms (long rifles)
Date: 02 Sep 1998 09:17:26 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-31 11:58:27 EDT, you write:

<<
 1)  Can anyone provide suggestions for an appropriate long-arm for a 1750s
 (F&I) militiaman/Provincial ranger and post-war longhunter in the
 backcountry of Maryland, Virginia, and Pennsylvania? Since this persona
 will also serve in the AWI, again most likely in a ranger/rifleman/militia
 unit, it'd be best if it was a weapon which he could plausibly retain
 through the 1770s, as well.
  >>

You can not go wrong with an early colonial 20 guage fowler or a Brown Bess or
a Tulle.  Both the Tulle and the fowler are available in kit or fully
assembled in the white (unfinished) or finished from CenterMark Inc., P.O. Box
575, Fredonia, NY 14063, 716-679-0276.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: 4th grade field trip
Date: 02 Sep 1998 01:53:08 EDT

Hey folks,

   I received the message below and have responded. Please if you have the
time, read it and respond as well to:  [e-mail] (Debbie Wade)
   (*Please, respond to the address above, don't hit "Reply")

                                                 Thanks,
                                                         Longshot

<<Came across your site and it looked as if it might have what I'm looking
for.  I am taking a group of 4th graders to a Rendezvous on Friday the 4th
and I'm looking for questions to put on a work sheet that they can ask the
people at the Rendezvous.  The purpose of the questions would be that they
would be able to learn and come back with information about the pre-1840
fur trade era and also information on the midwest Indians of that era.  Any
help you could give me would be much appreciated.   Thanks  Deb Wade>>



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From: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Minnesota
Date: 02 Sep 1998 01:04:24 -0700

the list.... I will be making a trip to the Virginia Minnesota area in a
week or so, will be going by Mankato,Minneapolis,Duluth,and Virginia. Are
there any historical places or ML shops along this route? Places to
stop.....     thanks   Frank  off line   [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle
Date: 02 Sep 1998 01:19:58 -0400

most leman guns were less than 50 cal and as you well know a 54 caliber
is 28 balls to the pound.  most of his adds and stuff show guns from 40
to 60 balls to the pound--in other words well below 40 cal  most ran
around 34 cal for some reason.

as I stated the only one i saw was in a book and followed the lines of
malcomb fordney
who he apprenticed under in 1825-- all of the contract muskets were
smooth bore not rifled---those are shown in the references that i gave--
they are quite ugley--heavy or bulky looking and probably made in support
of the cival war--or around that time period---havent seen any early
flint contract muskets with leman's name and i have perused a lot of
military records on procurement of contract guns-THEY MAY BE OUT THERE
THOUGH --last year i did a couple of restoration jobs on contract muskets
with one coming from rosebud indian reservation  it was made of beech
wood  AND IN PITIFUL CONDITION  it was a Norwich dated 1835---had a hell
of a time getting wood to match and to repair it with-- at first i
thought it was made from ash but after a while decided it was beech---I
have 2 very early flint contract musket locks---that i want to build a
gun around-- one is french and one is english with brass removable
pans--VARY LARGE  and  beautiful locks and both are in excelent
condition---Kieth Neubier wants them so bad its pathetic---says he has
the parts that go with them-- IE Barrel and such-  been trying to get him
to part with his parts-- almost like a mexican standoff --would be a hell
of a restoration job but extremely valuable when completed--several
thousand dollers each if done period correct---

yes there are a few that survived --check out the Davis Collection I
believe i saw one there in clarimore oklahoma.

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:28:51 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hawk,
>  I read somewhere that Leman's first govt. contract was for a small
>number
>of flint guns. For the life of me I can't remember where I read it. I
>have
>seen one full stock Leman at a anique gun show. As you have said the
>name
>on the top flat of the barrel was in one line. It was a big bore gun,
>probably .60 cal., rather thick wristed with plain wood. It was a
>percusion
>gun. Leman made rifles under several names for the govt. Indian Trade.
>One
>that was, by todays standards quite bizzare, was THE CONESTOGA RIFLE
>WORKS.
>I believe it is Kaufman's book that states these guns were stocked in
>curly
>maple then painted with barn red paint to be more appealing ot the
>Indians.
>I agree that there were probably very few flint Leman's. As far as I
>know
>there isn't any of those first contract guns that survived.
> Pendleton
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman rifles
Date: 02 Sep 1998 00:49:10 -0400

confirm on the lancaster  or english pattern of guns---MY favorite was
Malcomb Fordney--then next is the english pattern guns but many of the
english pattern guns were made in the pensivania area in one of the other
schools---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:37:46 +0100 Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Ditto the comments of Michael Pierce.  Twenty plus
>years ago when everybody had to have a Hawken copy
>to be a real mountain man, some people turned to
>Leman copies as a cheaper alternative for a
>"period" gun.  The Lemans that most people put out
>back then were short-barrel  half or full stock
>copies of Leman guns made primarily in the
>post-1850 period (as were many of the Hawken
>copies that people made and carried back then).
>By now we (should) know better and not assume that
>every gun drawn by Carl Russell for his book was
>of a type available to a trapper in the 1820-30
>west.  Leman guns surrendered by Sioux and
>Cheyenne warriors in 1877 were not the same guns
>carried by trappers in 1827.
>For my money, if someone wants a good,
>historically-supportable 1820-30 period gun, then
>go for a generic Lancaster (often called the
>"American" pattern in the 1830s) or an English
>pattern gun.
>Allen Chronister
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1750s-1770s Firearms (long rifles)
Date: 02 Sep 1998 15:54:21 EDT

1750's - 1770's ? the tulle fusil, in almost any form, is ideal.  Centermark
makes kits and finished or semi-finished guns in 3 different models, all of
which would be appropriate.  All smoothbore, so will fire ball or shot or
combo or both, even pebbles if thats what you got at hand.  I have a Grenadier
(military high polish with bayonet) and its extremely reliable and very
accurate.   Owned by Paul Silbert, they are located at PO Box 575 Fredonia NY
phone [phone].    Try it, you'll like it.



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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Centermark
Date: 02 Sep 1998 17:50:01 -0700 (PDT)

On Wed, 2 Sep 1998 [e-mail] wrote:
> You can not go wrong with an early colonial 20 guage fowler or a Brown Bess or
> a Tulle.  Both the Tulle and the fowler are available in kit or fully
> assembled in the white (unfinished) or finished from CenterMark Inc., P.O. Box
> 575, Fredonia, NY 14063, 716-679-0276.

Good Day All....

What kind of reputation does Centermark have as far as quality, wood to
metal fit, standing by their products?

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186



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From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Minnesota
Date: 02 Sep 1998 12:34:22 -0600 (CST)

>the list.... I will be making a trip to the Virginia Minnesota area in a
>week or so, will be going by Mankato,Minneapolis,Duluth,and Virginia. Are
>there any historical places or ML shops along this route? Places to
>stop.....     thanks   Frank  off line   [e-mail]

Ya gotta see Ft. Snelling, at Minneapolis.  That's a given.  Visit with my
friend and colleague Tom Shaw, who works at the Fort.  He has a reputation
as a great period shirt maker, and he knows his stuff.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Centermark
Date: 02 Sep 1998 23:42:14 EDT

Lee, The "grenadier" I own, and the ones I've seen have been first rate.
Quality of parts, fit, finish, attention to detail, correctness and
serviceability included.  Although I have never needed aftermarket help with
CenterMark, getting the kit was a long wait, and I have heard others remark
that the only problem with them is they are slow on delivery 'cuz they can't
fill the orders as fast as they get 'em.  I would think that's a testament to
the merchandise in itself.  Maybe some others will have some input too.  YHS,
PJ



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Centermark
Date: 02 Sep 1998 22:12:13 -0700

I bought a French smoothbore from Centermark, and I must say they were
prompt in my
delivery. Have used it a lot and it is a fine piece of work. I wanted to
buy one in the white,
but I was in quite a hurry and he had one that fit just right. They were
very helpful over the
phone with my questions and request. I dont think you will go wrong with
the choice.

Steve McGehee



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From: "Amy Vaclaw" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 02 Sep 1998 12:19:03 -0500

Dear Ken:

I noticed a reference by you about the reburial of J. Johnston.  I'm working
on a dissertation about the mountain man in American popular culture and
want to include this episode in my studies.  I've known about the reburial
since my youth.  I have a few magazine articles about it.  But you reference
to a pamphlet about the affair is enticing.  Would you be willing to xerox
me a copy of that pamphlet for my research files?  Let me know if you can
and what the costs of copying and mailing would be.

Hope to hear from you soon,

Matt Despian
Dept. of History
University of Oklahoma
1339 homeland Ave
Norman, OK  73072
[e-mail]



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From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Reburial of Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 04 Sep 1998 11:47:18 -0500

I'm interested in talking to anyony who was involved in the reburial of
Liver-eating Johnston in the mid-1970s.  As a youth I heard about it
from a buckskinner in the black powder club I was in, his name was Owen
Freebarron (if memory serves right).  Anyway, the recent postings on
Johnston has aroused my interest in this event.  I am the one working on
a dissertaion on the mountian man in American culture and history who
occasionally jumps in this group to find insight and information, and
that is what I'm about here now.  I would like anyone who was involved
in that reburial to e-mail me thier experiences with or rememberances on
it.  Anything and everything about it could and would be of value.  If
anyone knows about articles or newspaper clipping about it or about a
booklet I've recently caught wind of, I'd be very interested in those
too.  You can contact me directly or post here in the group.

Thanks ahead of time for all those can help out,

Matt Despain
[e-mail]

Dept of History
University of Oklahoma
1339 Homland Ave.
Norman, OK  73072



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Centermark
Date: 04 Sep 1998 08:24:53 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-02 23:35:20 EDT, you write:

<< What kind of reputation does Centermark have as far as quality, wood to
 metal fit, standing by their products?
  >>
Everyone of their guns I have picked up and or fondled have been really nice.
I have several friends that own them and all shoot well.  I was about to buy
one and had saved most of the money for a Tulle assembled in the white
(unfinished) until I bit into a chicken breast and broke off one of my front
teeth at the gum line.  The tooth required a root canel and a crown so there
went my gun for the moment.  But as the tooth I broke was #10 on the dental
charts when I do get the new CenterMark gun this winter (or spring) I am going
to carve a roman numeral 10 in the stock and call it good #10.

Your humble servant

C.T. Oakes



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Bear Fat
Date: 05 Sep 1998 23:10:39 EDT

I have about 25 lbs of frozen bear fat and I would like to render it down. I'm
looking for suggestions on methods of rendering, containers and storage ideas.
Thanks.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Fat
Date: 06 Sep 1998 01:57:56 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I have about 25 lbs of frozen bear fat and I would like to render it down. I'm
> looking for suggestions on methods of rendering, containers and storage ideas.
> Thanks.

I didn't do much with it, just melted it SLOWLY over low heat in a cast
iron pot, took if off the heat and slowly poured it through cheese cloth
into another cast iron pot.  Then, reheated it again, and poured it into
another cheese cloth with the "oil" going into glass jars.

Fred



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Fat
Date: 06 Sep 1998 08:48:26 -0400

Hi,
 I use a dutch oven, just render it on low heat, so it doesnt burn. Strain
it and when it is cool enough, I used the ice cream bucket containers and
put it in the freezer. I also keep a mason jar full of it in the fridge for
everyday use..

Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>I have about 25 lbs of frozen bear fat and I would like to render it down.
I'm
>looking for suggestions on methods of rendering, containers and storage
ideas.
>Thanks.
>
>Ghosting Wolf
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Fat
Date: 06 Sep 1998 06:43:59 -0700

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I have about 25 lbs of frozen bear fat and I would like to render it down. I'm
> looking for suggestions on methods of rendering, containers and storage ideas.
> Thanks.
>
> Ghosting Wolf

I cooked mine on a low heat.  You need something to strain it, because
there will be cracklins in it.  I poured mine through a cotton cloth,
but I think a regular screen strainer would work better.  After the
rendered oil sets up it will be cloudy and look like Crisco or Lard.  By
acident I let mine sit at room temp. for a long time, and a very fine
light oil floated to the top, and this is really good stuff.  If you
store it in a fridg that oil will not float out.  Bear fat will become
rancid also.  I know a guy that kept right on using it, stink and all,
and he won all the turkeys and hams and everything else that was put up
for a prize at the club shoots so rancid or not it seemed to work for
him.  I've also been told that it'll make some of the finest pie crusts
you've ever eaten, but I've never eaten one.  Saved mine to shoot with.
            DN



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Christian missionaries to Rendezvous
Date: 06 Sep 1998 18:26:23 EDT

I am trying to research the possible missionary outreaches to Rendezvous and
the Mountain Men of the 1800-1840 era.  Would prefer published references or
accessible repositories.

Rev. Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wayne Mumford <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Menard
Date: 06 Sep 1998 07:21:28 -0600

I am doing a little pre-Lewis & Clark research (I know it pre-dates 1800
but I thought someone out there might have some info) and am trying to
find some information about a trader/trapper named Menard.

I am familiar with Col.Menard and Pierre Menard. My question is, are
these men one and the same? And, is this man the same one who was in
residence at the Mandan villages in the mid 1700's as stated by Nasatir
in his book, "Before Lewis & Clark"? He apparently lived among them for
several years and may have joined some indians on thier travels up the
Yellowstone prior to the expedition.
Thanks,
Wayne
--
Frontier Filmworks
Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
Location Scouting-Prints-Stock Images
Historic Western Trails
http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Terry Landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bear Fat
Date: 07 Sep 1998 11:18:36 -0700



I have about 25 lbs of frozen bear fat and I would like to render it down.
Ghosting Wolf

try putting the fat in a large kettle. boil it down till all the water is
gone(thick as cold oat meal or as close as you can get it).for use as ball
grease I pour it into individual tins, cap boxs,ect.  freeze till ready to
use.
                good hunting, GRIZZ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Terry Landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject:  MtMan-List:newbee
Date: 07 Sep 1998 16:13:39 -0700

I'm pretty new to all this historical stuff, but I really want to learn some
more about mountainman lore. I hunt, but don't know anybody else who goes
for the primitive approach. are  there any other pilgrims west of the
selkirks? I live 40 mi. N.E. of Seattle, and I shure would like to meet some
people of like mind.
            thanks for any help I may get
                                terry(GRIZZ)landis



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William S. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Reburial of Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 07 Sep 1998 20:54:28 -0500

There's an article on Johnston's reburial in one of the old T & LR's. It has
photographs, and even shows Robert Redford assisting in carrying the
remains. I've got it around here somewhere, but danged if I know just where,
right now!

Waffalo
Hiveranno, # 907, most recently returned from the Eastern in Missouri.
"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men."
Luke 2:14


-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of S.M.Despain-1
Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 11:47 AM


I'm interested in talking to anyony who was involved in the reburial of
Liver-eating Johnston in the mid-1970s.  As a youth I heard about it
from a buckskinner in the black powder club I was in, his name was Owen
Freebarron (if memory serves right).  Anyway, the recent postings on
Johnston has aroused my interest in this event.  I am the one working on
a dissertaion on the mountian man in American culture and history who
occasionally jumps in this group to find insight and information, and
that is what I'm about here now.  I would like anyone who was involved
in that reburial to e-mail me thier experiences with or rememberances on
it.  Anything and everything about it could and would be of value.  If
anyone knows about articles or newspaper clipping about it or about a
booklet I've recently caught wind of, I'd be very interested in those
too.  You can contact me directly or post here in the group.

Thanks ahead of time for all those can help out,

Matt Despain
[e-mail]

Dept of History
University of Oklahoma
1339 Homland Ave.
Norman, OK  73072



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: how to sell a tipi
Date: 08 Sep 1998 08:57:45 EDT

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I got this note from Kirsten and thought somebody out on the list might be in
the market for  a tipi so I am forwarding it on.

I already recommended that they advertise in Smoke & Fire News but if any of
you have other suggestions I am sure they would appreciate it.

Your humble servant,

C.T. Oakes

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Hallo CT

We corresponded some time back when I was trying to find other folks from
the east coast on the list.

I've a question for you. Friends of mine made a tipi over the winter and
have decided to switch to a marquee asap. The tipi's in great shape and
all, but he's not got the hang of setting it up and the long poles are a
bit of a bother. Anyhow, they live close by here in Ottawa and wondered
what would be the best way to sell the thing.  Do you have any
suggestions? Are there stores in the region they could advertise in, or a
newsletter on the east coast or listserve or newsgroup that would be
appropriate?  An individual they should contact who has connections?
They're off to upstate NY this coming weekend for a vous - Ticonderoga
(?!?) I think - and since they aren't on the net I offered to make some
inquiries. Any suggestions would be most helpful.

I can easily find out the specs on the tipi if you know of anyone in this
time zone who'd like to buy it.

thanks,

Kirsten Smith
Medicine Hand
[e-mail]

--part0_905259466_boundary--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: how to sell a tipi
Date: 08 Sep 1998 09:37:14 EDT

I just hung a sign on mine at a rendezvous and it sold.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:newbee
Date: 08 Sep 1998 08:05:20 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Terry Landis wrote:
> I'm pretty new to all this historical stuff, but I really want to learn some
> more about mountainman lore. I hunt, but don't know anybody else who goes
> for the primitive approach. are  there any other pilgrims west of the
> selkirks? I live 40 mi. N.E. of Seattle, and I shure would like to meet some
> people of like mind.

Hello Terry, and welcome

There are several clubs in your area.  A couple even have internet
webpages, these are;

Evergreen Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Loge/5490/index.html

Puget Sound Freetraders
http://www.olywa.net/mmccahan/index.html

Whidbey Island Borestuffers
http://home1.gte.net/kahlstro/ronde1.htm

There are more, but these will get you started.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Fat
Date: 08 Sep 1998 10:56:19 -0400

BEAR GREASE IS ALSO EXTREMELY GOOD TO USE IN CASE HARDENING
FRIZZENS---HAVE USED IT ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS YOU WANT TO USE THE FLOTING
OIL ON THE TOP WHEN IT SETTLES OUT AT ROOM TEMPERATURE--A LOT LIKE SPERM
OIL BUT NOT AS GOOD--it makes a tough and hard frizzen and caseing
penitrates well--wont have to draw the frizzen as much if you use the
bear oil---

dip the frizzen in the bear grease and roll in your casenite the hold by
the attachment lug in your vise to act as a heat sink  heap the casenite
on the strikeing surface use a propane toarch or a regular torch and heat
to a straw color and hold for 2 to 4 min then let the frizzen fall into
the bear oil it will crack like a gun if the oil is thin and usually
catch afire so dont do this in a closed area---test the surface with a
file and if it wont cut the metal easily it is plenty hard if it is too
hard then you can draw it back and make it softer.  it doesnt take a lot
of heat to draw it back so be careful---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 6 Sep 1998 08:48:26 -0400 [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
writes:
>Hi,
> I use a dutch oven, just render it on low heat, so it doesnt burn.
>Strain
>it and when it is cool enough, I used the ice cream bucket containers
>and
>put it in the freezer. I also keep a mason jar full of it in the
>fridge for
>everyday use..
>
>Dennis
>
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Sunday, September 06, 1998 12:33 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Bear Fat
>
>
>>I have about 25 lbs of frozen bear fat and I would like to render it
>down.
>I'm
>>looking for suggestions on methods of rendering, containers and
>storage
>ideas.
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Ghosting Wolf
>>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:newbee
Date: 08 Sep 1998 08:50:25 -0700


--------------B575DC1EC70F0BE6C6E5B2F1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lee:
Thanks for jumping in there. I was racking my pea brain trying to come up with
some one over there to refer Terry to and so far couldn't help. All of the guys I
know on the wet side are RMM or AMM and not entry level although surely willing to
help out a new guy.

Terry, you say you are new to all this history stuff. Clarify what you mean. If
you are interested in the seriously primitive game there are folks in your neck of
the 'wet' that you might introduce yourself to. In fact there will be a primitive
bear/grouse hunt in your neighborhood in a couple weeks but first where are you in
your "Pilgrims Journey"? In any case , welcome aboard, I remain....

YMOS
Capt.. Lahti'

Lee Newbill wrote:


--------------B575DC1EC70F0BE6C6E5B2F1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Lee:
<BR>Thanks for jumping in there. I was racking my pea brain trying to come
up with some one over there to refer Terry to and so far couldn't help.
All of the guys I know on the wet side are RMM or AMM and not entry level
although surely willing to help out a new guy.

<P><B>Terry,</B> you say you are new to all this history stuff. Clarify
what you mean. If you are interested in the seriously primitive game there
are folks in your neck of the 'wet' that you might introduce yourself to.
In fact there will be a primitive bear/grouse hunt in your neighborhood
in a couple weeks but first where are you in your "Pilgrims Journey"? In
any case , welcome aboard, I remain....

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt.. Lahti'

<P>Lee Newbill wrote:
<BR> </HTML>

--------------B575DC1EC70F0BE6C6E5B2F1--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: Reburial of Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 08 Sep 1998 12:48:33 EDT

Would someone please post a synopsis of Liver Eating Johnston's life.
 Don't know a thing about him.  Thanks.
             Dick









-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: how to sell a tipi
Date: 09 Sep 1998 05:36:13 -0400

In all my years of selling new tipis....just showing up at an event is
the best way to sell  new and used.   It's kinda like a used car lot,
but it works.   Takes several months through most of the magazines by
the time you get it in print.

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

> I just hung a sign on mine at a rendezvous and it sold.






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reburial of Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 08 Sep 1998 18:32:20 EDT

For those interested in the Liver-eater, try reading "Crow Killer" by Robert
Thorpe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Menard
Date: 08 Sep 1998 21:51:28 EDT

Wayne;

Hafen's "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West" lists a ___ Menard
killed with Glass, a Ciprien Menard with Stewart, a Menard Academy where
Laidlaw's daughters went, all in addition to Pierre Menard.  Thwaites' "Early
Western Travels" series lists, in addition to Pierre, Hipolyte and Jean
Francois (both in Kaskaskia) and a Michel.

Pierre became a colonel in the Randolph County, Illinois militia in 1795.  See
Hafen, vol. 6, page 308.

Jim Hardee  AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Menard
Date: 08 Sep 1998 21:51:30 EDT

Wayne;

Hafen's "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West" lists a ___ Menard
killed with Glass, a Ciprien Menard with Stewart, a Menard Academy where
Laidlaw's daughters went, all in addition to Pierre Menard.  Thwaites' "Early
Western Travels" series lists, in addition to Pierre, Hipolyte and Jean
Francois (both in Kaskaskia) and a Michel.

Pierre became a colonel in the Randolph County, Illinois militia in 1795.  See
Hafen, vol. 6, page 308.

Jim Hardee  AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Christian missionaries to Rendezvous
Date: 08 Sep 1998 21:23:32 -0600

RE: Fur Trade Missionaries

This last winter I discovered the journal and art of Father Nicholas Point,
a French Jesuit missionary who followed Father DeSmet up through Fort Hall
and on to Flathead House in about 1842.  He worked with the Salish,
Kootenai, and Blackfeet tribes until about 1847 when he floated down the
Missouri back to St. Louis.

Loyola University owns his journal and the accompanying paintings and
sketches.  Loyolla published a beautiful book containing both his art and
writing.  You can really learn a lot from the combination of his writing and
his illustrations.  He is the only person whom I know of recorded the
appearance fo Fort Hall in that period.

At first glance, his oil paintings would leave you to believe that he didn't
depict things very realistically.   But when you study his sketches you
discover that he could record things very realistically and in great detail.
That leads me to believe that he probably didn't have a very good source of
camel hair brushes and was probably making his own brushes out of native
materials, thus making his paintings sometimes look a little crude.  I don't
think that there was any other artist of the period who spent so many
consequative winters in the Rockies without returning east for comforts of
civilization.  I don't know of any other missionary who came so close living
like a mountain man.   He's a good one to study up on.

Check your library for the book.


-----Original Message-----


>I am trying to research the possible missionary outreaches to Rendezvous
and
>the Mountain Men of the 1800-1840 era.  Would prefer published references
or
>accessible repositories.
>
>Rev. Hawk
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wayne Mumford <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Menard
Date: 08 Sep 1998 10:29:38 -0600

Jim,

Thanks for the lead, I was just going to try to get ahold of that volume
of Hafen. The first one sounds the most suspicious. Is that Hugh Glass?
Menard would have been ancient by his time?
Have you read Nasatir's "Before Lewis and Clark"? Pretty interesting
stuff. Apparently this Menard may have been as high up on the
Yellowstone as the Bighorn river area in around 1775 or so. He is said
to have been living among the Mandans for fifteen years during this
period.That doesn't predate the Verendrye's but it is still interesting
that europeans were going that high up during that time. It appears to
me that there was alot more activity on the upper Missouri than what is
generally believed. Not to discredit the expedition of Lewis & Clark but
the idea that they were in totally unknown/untravelled (by europeans)
territory above the Mandans seems a little flimsy.

I would imagine that Pierre/Col. Menard would be the same person that we
find on the Three forks in 1809-10 with Colter and Droulliard getting
their butts whipped by the Blackfeet.

Do you remember off hand which vol. of Thwaites EWT speaks of Menard?

Thanks again,
Wayne
--
Frontier Filmworks
Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
Location Scouting-Prints-Stock Images
Historic Western Trails
http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wayne Mumford <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Christian missionaries to Rendezvous
Date: 08 Sep 1998 10:37:31 -0600

What is the title of the book about Fr. Nicholas Point? DeSmet did a
pretty impressive stint in the mountains, but I have never checked out
Nicholas Point. I don't believe I've seen any of his art either.
Thanks in advance,
Wayne
--
Frontier Filmworks
Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
Location Scouting-Prints-Stock Images
Historic Western Trails
http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Menard
Date: 09 Sep 1998 01:52:15 EDT

Wayne;

Pierre Menard is not the Menard said to have been killed with Hugh Glass.
Glass was killed around 1833 and Pierre Menard died at the ripe old age of 78
on June 13, 1844. (He was born in 1766)  Interestingly, biographical sketches
of both Glass and Menard are in Vol. 6 of Hafen's series, so if you get that
volume, you'll find documentation for both.  The Menard essay was written by
Richard Oglesby who also wrote a bio of Manuel Lisa, "Manuel Lisa and the
Opening of the Missouri Fur Trade," (University of Oklahoma Press, 1963).
You'll find quite a bit on Menard in that book also, including quite a bit
regarding the events at the Three Forks to which you refer..

Pierre Menard was with Andrew Henry at the Three Forks, as you mentioned, when
some of those trappers were attacked by Blackfeet.  In 1807, Menard was a
partner with Manuel Lisa and William Morrison in a fur company, but didn't go
upriver until June of 1809.  The incident at Three Forks occured in 1810.
While Menard was already a partner with Lisa when they established a post on
the Bighorn in 1808, Menard was not there.  I find nothing indicating Menard
was up the Missouri any earlier.

I've never read Nasatir's book, but you are correct in thinking there was
quite a bit of activity on the Upper Missouri before Lewis and Clark.  This
takes nothing away from what the Corps of Discovery accomplished.  When you
read their journals, you find them running into several traders (Key word
TRADErs) such as Jessaumme, Laroque, Loisel, and others.  Several more were
encountered on the return trip such as McClallan, La Frost, McClelan, not to
mention Dickson and Hancock.  There were quite a few traders, a lot of them
French, coming down from Canada regions to do business with the tribes along
the river.  Menard had a store in Kaskaskia as 1790 so no doubt was aware of
this activity.

The references in Thwaites are quite brief being volume XXVI, p. 165 and
XXVII, p. 26 & 64.  Not much, but a few nuggets to be sure.

Jim Hardee AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Christian missionaries to Rendezvous
Date: 09 Sep 1998 06:37:31 -0600

Wayne,

I'd have to go back to the library to get the exact title of the book,
or ---
do a search for it at the amazon.com website.  Their database is incredible
and you can pull up all kinds of information, in addition to the title,
such as:

is it still in print?

how much does it cost?

how long do they estimate it will take to find a copy?

I'd query Amazon for it myself, but I don't want to subject myself to the
temptation of busting my budget.

Dave Tippets


-----Original Message-----


>What is the title of the book about Fr. Nicholas Point? DeSmet did a
>pretty impressive stint in the mountains, but I have never checked out
>Nicholas Point. I don't believe I've seen any of his art either.
>Thanks in advance,
>Wayne
>--
>Frontier Filmworks
>Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
>Location Scouting-Prints-Stock Images
>Historic Western Trails
>http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/
>
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Nicholas Pointe
Date: 09 Sep 1998 08:48:08 +0100

There are two ready sources of information on
Nicholas Pointe's art.  The first, published some
time ago, is called "Wilderness Kingdom."  I don't
have the author in mind right now, but it is a
relatively common book.  Most or all of the art in
Wilderness Kingdom is his oil paintings, mostly of
Indian folks in the 1840s.  It is sometimes very
difficult to decipher Pointe's oils and the
detailscan be very confusing.  As someone else has
noted, the same is not true of his field sketches,
which are mostly pencil.  In this regard he is
much like AJ Miller.  The best published source
for Pointe's filed sketches is an exhibit catalog
called "Sacred Encounters" by Jackie Peterson.
This was a traveling exhibit that I got to see at
the Museum of the Rockies in Bozeman.  (That's in
Montana.)  Pointe's little sketches (most are
about post-card size) are clear and fairly
detailed. There are several that depict non-native
people, including one dated 1841 (I think) and
called "Free Trapper."  It is a trapper on
horseback.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: MtMan-List: Ronnyvous page revamped
Date: 09 Sep 1998 12:01:37 -0400

To the Liste:

I just revamped my Ronnyvous page on the web.  I am still adding to it and
haven't got the pix of the Trade Guns back as yet to scan and DL, but other
than that, it is done.  I'd like for those interested to review it and let
me know what you think.  Also, if you have a web page and want me to link to
it, just send me the URL and I will be glad to.

Thanks

Addison Miller




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: MtMan-List: Ronnyvous page revamped
Date: 09 Sep 1998 12:01:37 -0400

To the Liste:

I just revamped my Ronnyvous page on the web.  I am still adding to it and
haven't got the pix of the Trade Guns back as yet to scan and DL, but other
than that, it is done.  I'd like for those interested to review it and let
me know what you think.  Also, if you have a web page and want me to link to
it, just send me the URL and I will be glad to.

Thanks

Addison Miller




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Fat
Date: 09 Sep 1998 10:10:40 -0600

Only one piece of advice: do the actual rendering _outside_.

--A.
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wayne Mumford <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nicholas Pointe
Date: 09 Sep 1998 00:09:05 -0600

Allen,

How long ago was it at the Museum of the Rockies- I'm not to far away,
maybe it's still there?

Wayne
--
Frontier Filmworks
Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
Location Scouting-Prints-Stock Images
Historic Western Trails
http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sacred Encounters Exhibit
Date: 09 Sep 1998 12:19:55 +0100

The Sacred Encounters exhibit that included a
number of Pointe field drawings was at the Museum
of the Rockies several years ago and is long gone.
 The catalog should still be available somewhere,
though.  Try 4-Winds Trading Post in St Ignatius
Mt.  Preston may still have some catalogs because
he had loaned a few items to the exhibit.
406-745-4336
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1830 & 1838 Rendevous Site
Date: 09 Sep 1998 14:17:30 EDT

Hi, Mountain Men & Women:

Just got back from a trail trip and was dee-lighted to find the original
rendevous site at Riverton, WY still preserved and still used. What a
beautiful place. It really affected me. Look for me there next July 4. Has
someone got a website with pix of all the rendezvous sites that I can
contribute pictures to?

Just to introduce myself a little I am too citified to be a real Mountain Man.
About the only part I've got down good is the story-telling. I will be sending
in for associate membership, and I'd like to know about rendezvous open to
spectators.

Tom Laidlaw <A HREF="http://rutnut.com/nwocta/home.html">NW OCTA Website</A>
  <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/otkiosks/otcc/intro.html">Oregon's Oregon
Trail Kiosk Tour</A>
 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/octanw/maps/clickable.html">Clickable Oregon
Trail in Oregon</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Minnesota
Date: 09 Sep 1998 17:48:55 +0000

Try Ft. Snelling in St. Paul, Ft. Ridgely in New Ulm, Minn..   Hardtack

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unsubscribing
Date: 09 Sep 1998 23:26:48 EDT

Maybe you can help me.  I've been trying to find how to unsubscribe from this
list.  Not that it isn't good, but I'm changing email addresses.  I'm already
getting mail on the other address, and don't need double transmissions.  Any
help would be appreciated.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Unsubscribe
Date: 10 Sep 1998 00:11:04 EDT

unsubscribe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nicholas Pointe
Date: 10 Sep 1998 00:32:36 EDT

"Wilderness Kingdom" was translated and introduced by Joseph P. Donnelly, Sr.
and published by Holt, Rinehart and Winston in 1967.  There was a simultaneous
printing by Loyola University Press in Chicago.  You can gnerally find it
anywhere from $40 to $80 through an out-of-print bookdealer.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nicholas Pointe
Date: 10 Sep 1998 00:32:36 EDT

"Wilderness Kingdom" was translated and introduced by Joseph P. Donnelly, Sr.
and published by Holt, Rinehart and Winston in 1967.  There was a simultaneous
printing by Loyola University Press in Chicago.  You can gnerally find it
anywhere from $40 to $80 through an out-of-print bookdealer.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Total newbee
Date: 10 Sep 1998 00:47:22 -0700

     I am a total pilgrim in this area.  I have read a few books
(real ones, not fiction) and talked to a few people, but that's
about it.   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
help me get started?

Thanks.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Total newbee
Date: 10 Sep 1998 02:23:40 -0700 (PDT)

On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Corey Tretteen wrote:
>      I am a total pilgrim in this area.  I have read a few books
> (real ones, not fiction) and talked to a few people, but that's
> about it.   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
> Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
> help me get started?

Corey

On the weekend of Oct 3, all sorts of folks will descend on Old Fort Walla
Walla, that would be an excellent time to wander through, talk with folks,
and see whats up.  Both military and trappers will be represented, from
1800 through the indian wars.

There will be both local folks and folks from distant parts, so you
should be able to rub elbows with someone that can help.

Additionally, what are you interested in... American Mountain Man,
or Northwest Company?  The NWC was very active and was the actual founder
of the original Fort Nez Perce, now known as Fort Walla Walla.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Total newbee
Date: 10 Sep 1998 12:09:10 -0700

Corey:

Lee gave you some sound advice. I live in Kennewick and would be willing to
share my "wisdom" with you on how to get started and etc.whether you find a
mentor in WW or not. Most of the guys in Walla Walla are target shooters and
real nice guys in any case but if you want to get into reinacting they may not
bee that much help. That of couse depends on how  authentic you are looking to
get. Feel free to e-mail me off list with your questions and when you get
ready to get on the ground and play the serious game I'll put you on to some
serious get-togethers. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Lee Newbill wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Corey Tretteen wrote:
> >      I am a total pilgrim in this area.  I have read a few books
> > (real ones, not fiction) and talked to a few people, but that's
> > about it.   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
> > Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
> > help me get started?
>
> Corey
>
> On the weekend of Oct 3, all sorts of folks will descend on Old Fort Walla
> Walla, that would be an excellent time to wander through, talk with folks,
> and see whats up.  Both military and trappers will be represented, from
> 1800 through the indian wars.
>
> There will be both local folks and folks from distant parts, so you
> should be able to rub elbows with someone that can help.
>
> Additionally, what are you interested in... American Mountain Man,
> or Northwest Company?  The NWC was very active and was the actual founder
> of the original Fort Nez Perce, now known as Fort Walla Walla.
>
> Regards
>
> Lee Newbill
> Viola, Idaho
> email at [e-mail]
> Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
> http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sale of books, etc
Date: 10 Sep 1998 17:25:15 -0500

Washtahay-
    am selling off a number of books and misc.  If anyone is interested,
please contact me directly.
Thank you
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael  Naples" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Men
Date: 10 Sep 1998 17:26:39 -0700

Greetings all Mountain Men Buffs!
       I am interested in getting information a mountain man by the name of
Francisco Laforet. He was a French fur trapper from Montreal Canada who in
the 1840's came with a group of other mountain men who eventually settled in
a place called San Antonio del Rio Colorado when it was part of Mexican
Territory.
Today it is called Questa.  If anyone has any information about this man or
his ancestry, I would love to here from you.  Thanks.






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David & Evelyn Mullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Francisco Laforet
Date: 10 Sep 1998 18:35:48 -0700

Mr. Naples,

Francisco Laforet was included in -The Mountain Men and Fur Trade of the
Far West- By LeRoy Hafen, ed., (Glendale, Ca. : Arthur H. Clark Company,
1965-72). His biographical sketch is in Vol. 6, pages 213-218, & was
written by David Weber.

Regards,
David Mullen
--
David & Evelyn Mullen
202 Mesa Verde
Jemez Springs, NM 87025
505.829.3212
email:[e-mail]

  Michael Naples wrote:
>
> Greetings all Mountain Men Buffs!
>        I am interested in getting information a mountain man by the name of
> Francisco Laforet. He was a French fur trapper from Montreal Canada who in
> the 1840's came with a group of other mountain men who eventually settled in
> a place called San Antonio del Rio Colorado when it was part of Mexican
> Territory.
> Today it is called Questa.  If anyone has any information about this man or
> his ancestry, I would love to here from you.  Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Menard
Date: 11 Sep 1998 08:47:27 -0600

In 1804, Joseph Menard of Montreal was listed as a North West Company
"voyageur contremaitre" (voyageur supervisor?) in the Athabasca River
department (Masson 1:396).

There's a book by W. Raymond Wood and Thomas D. Thiessen called _Early Fur
Trade on the Northern Plains_ (University of Oklahoma Press, 1985) which has
a wealth of information on the trade to the Mandans in the late 1700's and
early 1800's. It might have some information to help answer your question.
Sorry, I haven't got my copy with me right now.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Looking for Poor Devil Trader's
Date: 11 Sep 1998 11:04:28 PDT



I'm trying to locat the new address or contact information for Poor
Devil Trader's, the business was once in Virginia and operated by a
woman named Deborah.  Last I heard, she had relocated to Montana.  She
has made clothes for me in the past, and I would like to contact her
about making some more.
Please return mail to [e-mail]
Thanks in advance,
Chance Tiffie


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 11 Sep 1998 12:05:52 -0700

Washtahay,

I think I floated this notion before, but here goes again.  Would enough of you
folks be interested in some sort of registry where those of us willing to coach
newbies or to meet traveling list-mates could list enough info about our location
that we could be contacted online when somebody has a question?

I am no expert in such things, but I can imagine a list somewhere on the 'net
where we could go to find out if one of our friends online lives near us, or near
somewhere we are travelling, or near some site of research interest.  Most of us
have revealed our town at some time or another online, and I expect that a list
with just names, email addresses, location, and whether we are interested in
coaching, research help or socializing would serve our needs without unduly
intruding on list member's privacy.   My notion includes the idea that members
would volunteer to be listed, so the folks not interested would not be imposed
upon.

I'll wager that most of us have online friends who live nearer than we ever
suspected.  Also recall how much of our message traffic covers these newbie,
research or travelling topics already.

Feel free to reply online or privately if you like, and I would be willing to
invest time and effort in making such a thing happen if the group wants it.  I
also would like to solicit ideas on how such a thing would work, you folks
probably have a bunch of good ideas about that as well.  Dean, I particularly
would like to learn your views on this!

I would also like to see more correspondence with local events indicated, but I
think a separate message thread is appropriate for that, given the different set
of concerns involved.  I will presently launch such a discussion here, perhaps
after the flame war of this message thread dies down a little.

Let me know (putting on my fireproof 'skins and topping off my powderhorn),

Gary Bell,  aka Heron


Roger Lahti wrote:

> Corey:
>
> Lee gave you some sound advice. I live in Kennewick and would be willing to
> share my "wisdom" with you on how to get started and etc.whether you find a
> mentor in WW or not.

<snip>

> Lee Newbill wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Corey Tretteen wrote:
> > >      I am a total pilgrim in this area.

<snip>

>   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
> > > Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
> > > help me get started?
> >
> > Corey
> >
> > On the weekend of Oct 3, all sorts of folks will descend on Old Fort Walla
> > Walla, that would be an excellent time to wander through, talk with folks,
> > and see whats up.

<snip>

> > There will be both local folks and folks from distant parts, so you
> > should be able to rub elbows with someone that can help.
> >
> > Additionally, what are you interested in... American Mountain Man,
> > or Northwest Company?  The NWC was very active and was the actual founder
> > of the original Fort Nez Perce, now known as Fort Walla Walla.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Lee Newbill
> > Viola, Idaho
> > email at [e-mail]
> > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
> > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

  > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Corey Tretteen wrote:
> >      I am a total pilgrim in this area.  I have read a few books
> > (real ones, not fiction) and talked to a few people, but that's
> > about it.   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
> > Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
> > help me get started?





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "K. Carpenter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nicholas Pointe
Date: 11 Sep 1998 12:26:21 -0500



Wayne Mumford wrote:

> Allen,
>
> How long ago was it at the Museum of the Rockies- I'm not to far away,
> maybe it's still there?
>

Where is the Museum of the Rockies?

Carp




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 11 Sep 1998 15:50:43 EDT

Gary, Count me in. I'm in the West Los Angeles area, and would gladly give any
info needed. I think your idea is a great one. Feel free to contact me direct
at [e-mail].   PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 1998 13:55:27 +0100

The Museum of the Rockies is located on the campus
of Montana State University in Bozeman.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Nicholas Pointe/Sacred Encounters
Date: 11 Sep 1998 13:59:29 +0100

The exhibit catalog for the "Sacred Encounters"
exhibit, which contains a lot of the Pointe pencil
sketches, along with some other good stuff (some
very early Indian material, a hide coat attributed
to Robt. Campbell) is also available from the
museum store at the Montana Historical Society in
Helena.  toll free 800-243-9900
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 11 Sep 1998 17:00:44 -0500

Gary
That is a good idea.  I would gladly share my meager knowledge with anyone.
My name is Lanney Ratcliff and I live in Cleburne, Texas, 76031, about 28
miles south of Ft Worth.  My e-mail address is [e-mail]   You might
find it helpful to ask for and to include zip codes.
YMOS
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Washtahay,
>
>I think I floated this notion before, but here goes again.  Would enough of
you
>folks be interested in some sort of registry where those of us willing to
coach
>newbies or to meet traveling list-mates could list enough info about our
location
>that we could be contacted online when somebody has a question?
>
>I am no expert in such things, but I can imagine a list somewhere on the
'net
>where we could go to find out if one of our friends online lives near us,
or near
>somewhere we are travelling, or near some site of research interest.  Most
of us
>have revealed our town at some time or another online, and I expect that a
list
>with just names, email addresses, location, and whether we are interested
in
>coaching, research help or socializing would serve our needs without unduly
>intruding on list member's privacy.   My notion includes the idea that
members
>would volunteer to be listed, so the folks not interested would not be
imposed
>upon.
>
>I'll wager that most of us have online friends who live nearer than we ever
>suspected.  Also recall how much of our message traffic covers these
newbie,
>research or travelling topics already.
>
>Feel free to reply online or privately if you like, and I would be willing
to
>invest time and effort in making such a thing happen if the group wants it.
I
>also would like to solicit ideas on how such a thing would work, you folks
>probably have a bunch of good ideas about that as well.  Dean, I
particularly
>would like to learn your views on this!
>
>I would also like to see more correspondence with local events indicated,
but I
>think a separate message thread is appropriate for that, given the
different set
>of concerns involved.  I will presently launch such a discussion here,
perhaps
>after the flame war of this message thread dies down a little.
>
>Let me know (putting on my fireproof 'skins and topping off my powderhorn),
>
>Gary Bell,  aka Heron
>
>
>Roger Lahti wrote:
>
>> Corey:
>>
>> Lee gave you some sound advice. I live in Kennewick and would be willing
to
>> share my "wisdom" with you on how to get started and etc.whether you find
a
>> mentor in WW or not.
>
><snip>
>
>> Lee Newbill wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Corey Tretteen wrote:
>> > >      I am a total pilgrim in this area.
>
><snip>
>
>>   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
>> > > Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
>> > > help me get started?
>> >
>> > Corey
>> >
>> > On the weekend of Oct 3, all sorts of folks will descend on Old Fort
Walla
>> > Walla, that would be an excellent time to wander through, talk with
folks,
>> > and see whats up.
>
><snip>
>
>> > There will be both local folks and folks from distant parts, so you
>> > should be able to rub elbows with someone that can help.
>> >
>> > Additionally, what are you interested in... American Mountain Man,
>> > or Northwest Company?  The NWC was very active and was the actual
founder
>> > of the original Fort Nez Perce, now known as Fort Walla Walla.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Lee Newbill
>> > Viola, Idaho
>> > email at [e-mail]
>> > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
>> > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
>
>  > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Corey Tretteen wrote:
>> >      I am a total pilgrim in this area.  I have read a few books
>> > (real ones, not fiction) and talked to a few people, but that's
>> > about it.   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
>> > Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
>> > help me get started?
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "WILLIAM P. GARRISON" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 11 Sep 1998 15:51:39 -0600


------ =_NextPart_000_01BDDD9C.139C77E0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a virtual Chat Site that can be utilized by the list if you like. =
I also have a Rendezvous room set up on it. The Program is called The =
Palace and can be downloaded at: www.thepalace.com      My site is =
called Sportsmans Paradise and the Address for that is 206.80.121.152 =
:9998. I run this program most every day from 9am to 6 pm Mtn Time. I =
use this site to talk to customers but The Mountain Man era is one close =
to my heart and has been for a long time.
Anyway , Your all welcome to use my site for real time chat if you like. =
If you would like more info contact me at [e-mail] or ICQ =
1316205. I also will be putting up a room in the near future for =
Trappers.
  YHAOS
      Griz Garrison

----------
Sent:     Friday, September 11, 1998 1:05 PM

Washtahay,

I think I floated this notion before, but here goes again.  Would enough =
of you
folks be interested in some sort of registry where those of us willing =
to coach
newbies or to meet traveling list-mates could list enough info about our =
location
that we could be contacted online when somebody has a question?

I am no expert in such things, but I can imagine a list somewhere on the =
'net
where we could go to find out if one of our friends online lives near =
us, or near
somewhere we are travelling, or near some site of research interest.  =
Most of us
have revealed our town at some time or another online, and I expect that =
a list
with just names, email addresses, location, and whether we are =
interested in
coaching, research help or socializing would serve our needs without =
unduly
intruding on list member's privacy.   My notion includes the idea that =
members
would volunteer to be listed, so the folks not interested would not be =
imposed
upon.

I'll wager that most of us have online friends who live nearer than we =
ever
suspected.  Also recall how much of our message traffic covers these =
newbie,
research or travelling topics already.

Feel free to reply online or privately if you like, and I would be =
willing to
invest time and effort in making such a thing happen if the group wants =
it.  I
also would like to solicit ideas on how such a thing would work, you =
folks
probably have a bunch of good ideas about that as well.  Dean, I =
particularly
would like to learn your views on this!

I would also like to see more correspondence with local events =
indicated, but I
think a separate message thread is appropriate for that, given the =
different set
of concerns involved.  I will presently launch such a discussion here, =
perhaps
after the flame war of this message thread dies down a little.

Let me know (putting on my fireproof 'skins and topping off my =
powderhorn),

Gary Bell,  aka Heron


Roger Lahti wrote:

> Corey:
>
> Lee gave you some sound advice. I live in Kennewick and would be =
willing to
> share my "wisdom" with you on how to get started and etc.whether you =
find a
> mentor in WW or not.

<snip>

> Lee Newbill wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Corey Tretteen wrote:
> > >      I am a total pilgrim in this area.

<snip>

>   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
> > > Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
> > > help me get started?
> >
> > Corey
> >
> > On the weekend of Oct 3, all sorts of folks will descend on Old Fort =
Walla
> > Walla, that would be an excellent time to wander through, talk with =
folks,
> > and see whats up.

<snip>

> > There will be both local folks and folks from distant parts, so you
> > should be able to rub elbows with someone that can help.
> >
> > Additionally, what are you interested in... American Mountain Man,
> > or Northwest Company?  The NWC was very active and was the actual =
founder
> > of the original Fort Nez Perce, now known as Fort Walla Walla.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Lee Newbill
> > Viola, Idaho
> > email at [e-mail]
> > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
> > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

  > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Corey Tretteen wrote:
> >      I am a total pilgrim in this area.  I have read a few books
> > (real ones, not fiction) and talked to a few people, but that's
> > about it.   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
> > Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
> > help me get started?





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------ =_NextPart_000_01BDDD9C.139C77E0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 11 Sep 1998 15:10:32 -0700

Lanney,

Zip codes, that would really help!  See, you guys have a bunch of great ideas to
make this work well!  Thanks!!!!

I'm stashing all the messages responding on this topic, and will update the list
membership as soon as things settle out.

Keep the ideas rolling in!

Gary






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Total newbee
Date: 10 Sep 1998 18:11:24 -0700

Greetings Corey,

    Welcome to the List. Unfortunately Seattle is a little far from
Walla Walla, but if we can be of any help don't hesitate to ask.

Best regards,
Terry & Judith Smith


Corey Tretteen wrote:

>      I am a total pilgrim in this area.  I have read a few books
> (real ones, not fiction) and talked to a few people, but that's
> about it.   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
> Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
> help me get started?
>
> Thanks.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit
Date: 11 Sep 1998 22:27:41 -0500

Corey
This is an open letter to newcomers that I have used for a while.  I hope
some part of it helps you.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----



>I have given the same advice to numerous pilgrims.  DO NOT SPEND A BUNCH OF
>MONEY TO GO TO YOUR FIRST RENDEZVOUS!!    A weekend pre-1840 club
rendezvous
>will have a multitude of different styles of dress, accoutrements,
shelters,
>guns --- everything---for you to see.  Call a club member (preferably an
>officer) and ask that person to put you in contact with a club member (s)
>near your home.  Visit with that person and find out more particulars about
>that club.  Ask him to help you outfit yourself in a "generic", lowcost set
>of clothes.  Find out if a pair of boots or moccasins you might already own
>is acceptable at that club's doin's.  That sort of thing.   You might spend
>$12 on Book of Buckskinning Vol.1 and read it.  It will give you a
>reasonably useable overview of buckskinning.  However, don't make the
>mistake of treating it as holy writ...just a guide.  Contact Scurlock
>Publishing Co. Inc,  Dept B7, Rt 5, Box 347-M, Texarkana, Texas  75501,
>800-228-6389.   Most clubs are pretty forgiving of newcomers and visitors
so
>long as they display the right spirit and show up in a reasonably
acceptable
>outfit.   Some clubs have a supply of clothes to loan to a pilgrim,
although
>you might find most of the loaners to be outgrown kids' stuff.  At any
rate,
>a first timer's clothes should be as non-specific as possible---something
>just about anyone would have worn in the time from about 1840 back to the
>turn of the eighteenth century...cloth trousers, cotton pullover,
>dropshoulder shirt, wide leather belt with a simple buckle and (at most
>rendezvous) round or square toe, low heel leather boots with the tops kept
>under the trouser bottoms, or moccasins.   Get a natural colored canvas
>haversack to carry a spoon, a tin pie plate and a tin (or plain crockery)
>cup. Avoid blue, green, red or any other color speckled enamel ware.
>Period.   People will darn near compete to feed you (if you're not a jerk
or
>something), but it is considered good manners to provide your own place
>setting, as it were.  Ask your club contact  his advice on a bedroll and to
>help you find someone you can camp with.  A good wool blanket rolled into
an
>8X8 or 10X10 square of white canvas with a smaller canvas ground cloth is a
>good start.  Find out how to set a diamond shelter with the square of
canvas
>or stretch it over a rope or wooden ridgepole to make a simple "A" frame
>tent.  Most clubs allow very nearly anything in a camp so long as it is
kept
>covered--completely-- and will permit a car in camp for a short time  to
>unload on Friday (or even early Saturday).  So don't be shy about bringing
a
>cooler with drinks and fresh food and a sleeping pad of some sort.  Bring
>food that doesn't need to be cooked or that can be cooked simply (on a
>stick) over a fire.  Wander around camp and observe the various cooks in
>action, and come better equipped next time.
>Don't buy a gun before going to rendezvous for the first time.  If you must
>carry somethig, carry a walking staff.  It will make you look a little like
>Moses  and costs essentially nothing.  There will be guns there of every
>description and  if you let it be known that you would like to talk about
>guns, you will find people falling all over themselves to talk about guns,
>to show you theirs and to let you shoot them.   Talk with these same people
>about their clothes and why they dress the way they do.  You will soon see
>the various times and places that are represented.  If one particular style
>appeals to you do, find out all you can about that style...is it actually
>period and, if so,  specifically when and where that style of dress was
>common.  If you are certain that you have found a suitable style of dress,
>find out what gun would be appropriate to carry.   Don't make this decision
>in haste.  Take your time...your generic stuff will always be correct.
When
>you are resonably certain about a particular style, do the research
>necessary to get yourself a good, sturdy, not too showey outfit.  Then
>concern yourself about a gun.  If you decide , for instance, that the
French
>& Indian War period (1756) is where your interest lies, you don't want to
>suddenly remember that you already spent a small fortune on a top quality
>percussion mountain rifle suitable for the  Rocky Mountains in the1830's.
>Then you will have to once again explain to She Who Must Be Obeyed how
>important it is for you to spend $1200 on a gun that only shoots once.
>Waugh!! (you CAN buy excellent guns for a lot less than $1200, by the way).
However, when you have decided...for sure...where your interest
>lies, then buy the best gun you purse will allow.  In fact, strain it a
>little.   Avoid cheap goods---always.  Ask the people with the best guns
where they got theirs and if the
>same gunmaker's name keeps coming up go find that gunmaker.  Even then,
don't rush to buy a gun.  Look at a pile of them before buying one--find out
what a good gun is and buy the best you can afford.  If someone tries really
hard to sell you a particular gun be aware that he probably is more
interested in selling you what he is trying to get rid of rather than trying
to sell you what you need.
Make yourself acquainted with longtime members and ask each of them about
their buckskinner library.  Get a list of commonly recommended books (get
the title, author and ISBN number---you bookseller will thank you) and build
a quality library.  Don't let anybody tell you that the complete set of Book
of Buckskinning is all you need.  Get them, for sure, but don't stop there.
>Pardon my long winded reply to your query.  I hope you find some good
>guidance in your pursuit of this truly wonderful hobby---that's what it is,
>you know.  However,if you are lucky you find will yourself  making
>buckskinning an integral part of you lifestyle,  your daily conduct, even
>your home's decor.  You will find that you will have greater confidence and
>pride in yourself and your abilities.  Most people are too timid to do what
>you will soon be able to do without thinking twice.
>Good Luck
>Lanney Ratcliff
>[e-mail]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mill, Kirk <[e-mail]>
>To: ML MAILING LIST <[e-mail]>
>Cc: history mailing list <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 1:30 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit
>
>
>>I have been discussing this question with some people off-line and I
>decided
>>the best way to get the definitive answer would be to post it.
>>What would you folks consider to be the minimum outfit (clothing, shelter,
>>cookware, etc.) that a pilgrim like myself needs for a weekend rendezvous
>>that advertises as "pre-1840's"?  Thanks in advance for your help.
>>
>>
>>Kirk Mill
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit
Date: 11 Sep 1998 23:33:43 -0400

Lanney,
 You are just a sweetheart...Where were you when I started??<BG>
 I'll make myself available to help as well..For all the good I'll do.
Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit
Date: 11 Sep 1998 20:42:21 -0700

Dennis,

You can keep these "seasoned" mountain men from yarnin' the greenhorns too
much!  WAGH!

Medicine Bear

Dennis Miles wrote:

>  I'll make myself available to help as well..For all the good I'll do.
> Dennis
>
>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> -




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit
Date: 11 Sep 1998 23:44:38 -0400

Only way to do that is with a load of swan and a damn big stick....

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>Dennis,
>
>You can keep these "seasoned" mountain men from yarnin' the greenhorns too
>much!  WAGH!
>
>Medicine Bear
>
>Dennis Miles wrote:
>
>>  I'll make myself available to help as well..For all the good I'll do.
>> Dennis
>>
>>    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>> -
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 11 Sep 1998 23:15:10 -0600

>I think I floated this notion before, but here goes again.  Would enough of
you
>folks be interested in some sort of registry where those of us willing to
coach
>newbies or to meet traveling list-mates could list enough info about our
location
>that we could be contacted online when somebody has a question?

Please check out my site, the WWW Rendezvous, listed below.  I have been
posting an ever-growing roster of online buckskinners (including email and
locations, and organized by state) for quite a while.  There are a few
hundred people listed already, and more every week.  Please feel free to add
yourself to that list.  Also look for the listing of local muzzleloading
clubs (also organized by states).

Thanks - hope it might be what you were thinking

Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Francisco Laforet
Date: 12 Sep 1998 03:01:27 EDT

Mr. Naples,

You'll also find some info on LaForet in "Taos Trappers", by David Weber,
published by University of Oklahoma Press in 1970.  Weber also wrote the
article in the Hafen series Dave Mullen recommends.  The Hafen piece is fairly
short but still a comprehensive report on LaForet.  The Hafen series is out of
print so check your local library.

I understand there is a new collection of the Hafen articles pertaining to the
trappers of the southwest that is now in print and compiled by Matthew Despain
(a subscriber to this list)  I don't know if LaForet is included.  Perhaps if
Mr. Despain reads this, he can confirm the inclusion of this article.  At any
rate, that book is in print and will undoubtedly contain some reference to
LaForet as he hung around with men like William Wolfskill and George Yount, to
name a few.

Jim Hardee, AMM #1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit -Reply
Date: 12 Sep 1998 06:32:51 -0700

My thanks to Lanny, and to all the other nice folks out there
who are writing back to help me.   Please keep the advice
coming.


Corey



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: 12 Sep 1998 06:37:31 -0700

Roger Lahti, could you please send me your E-mail address?
  I would like to take you up on your offer to help, seeing as
how your the closest to me.

Thanks.

Corey





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 11 Sep 1998 18:41:23 -0400

DOH!!  I guess it would help if I said where I was... Southwest Florida...
local zips are 34101 to 34116.... That is just for Naples.  If anyone is
near here and needs anything, email me at [e-mail] and I will be
glad to help...

Addison Miller
-----Original Message-----


>Gary, Count me in. I'm in the West Los Angeles area, and would gladly give
any
>info needed. I think your idea is a great one. Feel free to contact me
direct
>at [e-mail].   PJ
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 11 Sep 1998 18:38:47 -0400

Aye... I'd me more than willing after all the help I received when I was
greener than grass...  I think now I am a tenderfoot after about 8 years...
*chuckles*

Addison Miller
-----Original Message-----


>Washtahay,
>
>I think I floated this notion before, but here goes again.  Would enough of
you
>folks be interested in some sort of registry where those of us willing to
coach
>newbies or to meet traveling list-mates could list enough info about our
location
>that we could be contacted online when somebody has a question?
>
>I am no expert in such things, but I can imagine a list somewhere on the
'net
>where we could go to find out if one of our friends online lives near us,
or near
>somewhere we are travelling, or near some site of research interest.  Most
of us
>have revealed our town at some time or another online, and I expect that a
list
>with just names, email addresses, location, and whether we are interested
in
>coaching, research help or socializing would serve our needs without unduly
>intruding on list member's privacy.   My notion includes the idea that
members
>would volunteer to be listed, so the folks not interested would not be
imposed
>upon.
>
>I'll wager that most of us have online friends who live nearer than we ever
>suspected.  Also recall how much of our message traffic covers these
newbie,
>research or travelling topics already.
>
>Feel free to reply online or privately if you like, and I would be willing
to
>invest time and effort in making such a thing happen if the group wants it.
I
>also would like to solicit ideas on how such a thing would work, you folks
>probably have a bunch of good ideas about that as well.  Dean, I
particularly
>would like to learn your views on this!
>
>I would also like to see more correspondence with local events indicated,
but I
>think a separate message thread is appropriate for that, given the
different set
>of concerns involved.  I will presently launch such a discussion here,
perhaps
>after the flame war of this message thread dies down a little.
>
>Let me know (putting on my fireproof 'skins and topping off my powderhorn),
>
>Gary Bell,  aka Heron
>
>
>Roger Lahti wrote:
>
>> Corey:
>>
>> Lee gave you some sound advice. I live in Kennewick and would be willing
to
>> share my "wisdom" with you on how to get started and etc.whether you find
a
>> mentor in WW or not.
>
><snip>
>
>> Lee Newbill wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Corey Tretteen wrote:
>> > >      I am a total pilgrim in this area.
>
><snip>
>
>>   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
>> > > Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
>> > > help me get started?
>> >
>> > Corey
>> >
>> > On the weekend of Oct 3, all sorts of folks will descend on Old Fort
Walla
>> > Walla, that would be an excellent time to wander through, talk with
folks,
>> > and see whats up.
>
><snip>
>
>> > There will be both local folks and folks from distant parts, so you
>> > should be able to rub elbows with someone that can help.
>> >
>> > Additionally, what are you interested in... American Mountain Man,
>> > or Northwest Company?  The NWC was very active and was the actual
founder
>> > of the original Fort Nez Perce, now known as Fort Walla Walla.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Lee Newbill
>> > Viola, Idaho
>> > email at [e-mail]
>> > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
>> > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
>
>  > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Corey Tretteen wrote:
>> >      I am a total pilgrim in this area.  I have read a few books
>> > (real ones, not fiction) and talked to a few people, but that's
>> > about it.   What I need to know is is there anyone in the
>> > Walla Walla, WA area that I can get together with who can
>> > help me get started?
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 12 Sep 1998 23:00:40 -0400

Up here in the Northern regions of Florida or Southeastern Georgia, you have
Linda Holley at the 32200s' zip code who can help find out or people to help
out the new comer and the old comer. Been doing it for over 30 years.

Linda Holley
"the Cheyenne Lady"

Sean wrote:

> DOH!!  I guess it would help if I said where I was... Southwest Florida...
> local zips are 34101 to 34116.... That is just for Naples.  If anyone is
> near here and needs anything, email me at [e-mail] and I will be
> glad to help...
>
> Addison Miller
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, September 11, 1998 3:52 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
>
> >Gary, Count me in. I'm in the West Los Angeles area, and would gladly give
> any
> >info needed. I think your idea is a great one. Feel free to contact me
> direct
> >at [e-mail].   PJ
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Menard
Date: 12 Sep 1998 08:58:14 -0600

The Wood and Thiessen book you mention does have a lot of information about
Menard.  I browsed through it last evening.

One of the tidbits that I picked out, in light of the PBS special on The
Corp. of Discovery that has been running a lot this year, is that Menard was
a resident fur trader at the Mandan and Hidatsu villages for a quarter of
century before The Corp of Discovery arrived there.

-----Original Message-----


>In 1804, Joseph Menard of Montreal was listed as a North West Company
>"voyageur contremaitre" (voyageur supervisor?) in the Athabasca River
>department (Masson 1:396).
>
>There's a book by W. Raymond Wood and Thomas D. Thiessen called _Early Fur
>Trade on the Northern Plains_ (University of Oklahoma Press, 1985) which
has
>a wealth of information on the trade to the Mandans in the late 1700's and
>early 1800's. It might have some information to help answer your question.
>Sorry, I haven't got my copy with me right now.
>
>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>[e-mail]
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 12 Sep 1998 09:45:42 -0700 (PDT)

Gary

It would perhaps be better to assist one of the many Blackpowder
orientated webpages/sites out there than to start a new location list...

Scott Singer has such a listing at
http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous/

As does the "Mountain Man Cyber List" at
http://home.earthlink.net/~jfluhman/index/main.html


Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wayne Mumford <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Menard
Date: 11 Sep 1998 23:42:20 -0600

David Tippets and Angela Gottfred thank you for the help in tracking
down Menard. I think you have found the one I am searching for. David's
description fits closely with that given by Truteau in Nastir's book.
Apparently Truteau got information from Menard about the upper
Yellowstone which the latter had travelled to several times in the
mid/late 1700's in the company of the Gros Ventre who were going to
visit the Crow. This fits as the Crow territory encompassed most of the
upper Yellowstone proper and the bigger tributaries to the south, the
Tongue, Powder, and the Bighorn.
Thank you- now to get my hands on that book!
--
Frontier Filmworks
Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
Location Scouting-Prints-Stock Images
Historic Western Trails
http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit
Date: 12 Sep 1998 13:56:35 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-12 00:21:07 EDT, you write:

<< Corey
 This is an open letter to newcomers that I have used for a while.  I hope
 some part of it helps you.
 YMOS
 Lanney Ratcliff >>

Excelent advice.  I might add a few ideas & observations for first time rondy
attendees.  As Lanney said right off the bat, don't bankrupt yourself untill
you get some ideas as to which way you want to go in history.  If you decide
you just HAVE to have a rifle & ignore his good advice, start off with an
inexpensive rifle until you learn how to shoot B/P -- you may find you hate it
& it'd be a shame to have $2000 wrapped up in a rifle you'll never shoot
again.  Look at Lyman's offerings -- excelent rifles for under $400 or
Traditions has a "Pennsylvania long rifle" that's less than that.  CVA also
makes fome good shooting inexpensive rifles, but look for the traditional side
locks & slow twist barrels.  T/C builds some excelent "starter" rifles &
there's a bunch out there already -- maybe you can pick up a used one in good
shape, then pass it on when you no longer need it -- I have a couple of my old
CVA's out on loan right now.  My arsonal now consists of a Lyman Great Plains
I use for hunting, a highly modified Dixie Tenn. Mountain "poor Boy" also for
hunting, a Trade gun from North Star West, a custom built "Ohio" & at present
I'm having a copy of Fredric Sell's "Pegasus" built by Lodding & McClenahan.
The last 3 are the ones I use for re-enactments -- or will use once "Pegasus"
gets finished.  These last 3 guns were all $800 & UP.  My persona is such I
could carry any of the rifles with a slight shift in my clothing -- only the
Great Plains is percussion -- the rest are flinters.  If I want to go with my
persona dressed for 1838 - 40, then the G/P would fit because I've found
doccumentation for Hawkin Rifles & percussion caps in a shipping
manefest/inventory that was headed for the 1838 rondy.

Starting clothing can be as simple as a droop sholder calico shirt worn over a
pair of WHITE jeans so the pockets don't show.  Denim IS a period cloth -- it
just wasn't blue.  Head wear -- go bare headed, wear a solid color bandana, or
once you're there look for a wool felt hat blank -- you can usualy pick one up
at most rondys for under $20.  Feet -- A whole bunch of us started out with
Tandy kit mocs, but that's something you'll need to up grade as soon as
possible -- besides, they'll wear out pretty quick & need replaced anyway.
Also be aware Tandy kit mocs offer very little protection for your feet as far
as sharp rocks, cactus thorns & the like -- they're just a good inexpensive
way to get started -- especialy is you fudge with some Dr Sholes insoles or
equivelent.  You'll probably want to up grade your clothing first once you
decide what your persona will be.

Camping gear -- Again Lanney's advice is good, but most small local rondies
have what's called "Tin Camp" -- an area where modern camp gear is allowed.
Keep in mind most rondies that have "tin camps" require period dress in
"primative camp".  While you're there LOOK around & see how the various camps
are set up, & as Lanney said, ASK QUESTIONS!  You'll see just about everything
at the local rondies.  They're a whole lot of fun to go to & get ideas for
your own camp.  You'll also find a whole lot of stuff that probably isn't
doccumentable.  The local rondies are "growing areas" where you can usualy go
either completely modern or completely period -- or any stage in between.  Be
advised there are a few local rondies that ARE PERIOD & VERY prowd of that
fact -- they may even want to check your underwear!  Again Lanney's advice --
Call ahead & talk to the booshway (or other club member) to see if they're a
rather lax group or are in strict compliance with period requirements -- and
exactly what they are.  IF you can meet their requirements, then go.

Once you start attending the local rondies, at this "starting level" make sure
you make an attempt to improve your gear.  I'm going to get yelled at for this
statement, BUT ---- You don't HAVE to go completely period or doccument
everything you do, but you'll more or less get stuck with the more lax local
rondies where that is acceptable.  IF that's what you want, then stay at that
level.  HOWEVER ---- From experience -- attending a National level rondy
requires you be more inline with period requirements.  The certain
organizations like AMM & ALRA have requirements much stricter.  Then too,
there's a certain satisfaction, even at the local level when you know your
gear IS period, what you eat IS period, how you derss IS period & all of it
doccumentable.  At that level, you can attend ANY function in your chosen time
frame.  Don't be surprised if your persona changes over the years.  When I
first started, I was only intrested in the Rocky Mountain Fur trade era, but
after attending a re-enactment at Old Fort Niagara when in that area hunting
Black Bear with primative gear last year, I've had to open up the earlier part
of my persona's life & put more effort in developing it.

Hopefully, this, along with what Lanney said has given you some ideas as to
where to start.  With any luck, we'll see you down the trail some day!

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 12 Sep 1998 14:52:34 -0400

if you hace gun problems or a question about restoring a firearm give me
a call or send me a note my info is below.
as usual  YMHOSANT
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:00:40 -0400 Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Up here in the Northern regions of Florida or Southeastern Georgia,
>you have
>Linda Holley at the 32200s' zip code who can help find out or people
>to help
>out the new comer and the old comer. Been doing it for over 30 years.
>
>Linda Holley
>"the Cheyenne Lady"
>
>Sean wrote:
>
>> DOH!!  I guess it would help if I said where I was... Southwest
>Florida...
>> local zips are 34101 to 34116.... That is just for Naples.  If
>anyone is
>> near here and needs anything, email me at [e-mail] and I
>will be
>> glad to help...
>>
>> Addison Miller
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Friday, September 11, 1998 3:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
>>
>> >Gary, Count me in. I'm in the West Los Angeles area, and would
>gladly give
>> any
>> >info needed. I think your idea is a great one. Feel free to contact
>me
>> direct
>> >at [e-mail].   PJ
>> >
>
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Clay Landry <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Christian missionaries to Rendezvous
Date: 12 Sep 1998 18:12:12 -0600 (MDT)

At 06:26 PM 9/6/98 EDT, you wrote:
>I am trying to research the possible missionary outreaches to Rendezvous and
>the Mountain Men of the 1800-1840 era.  Would prefer published references or
>accessible repositories.
>
>Rev. Hawk
>
>
>--------------------------------------------

Just about all of the early missionaries to the Oregon country kept diaries
and journals. This was usually a requirement of the church that sponsored them.

The best books on the first missionaries to visit the Rendezvous  are;

"The First White Women over The Rockies" by Clifford Drury-three Volumes.
This is by far the best work on the Protestant missionaries-it contains most
of the Diary and journals of Narccisa Whitman, Elza Hart Spaulding,  Asa
Smith etc.
It is an out of print series so you will probably have to get it from the
library.

"Journal of an Exploring Tour Beyond the Rocky Mountains" by Rev Samuel Parker-
He was at the 1835 Rendezvous with Rev. Whitman, lots of interesting
comments on the alnd and the Mountaineers. This book was also out of print
for many years however I just today saw it at a book store in West
Yellowstone Montana in paper back. I am sure that most good book stores can
get it for you.

Have fun!

Clay

"
Clay Landry
P.O. Box 1033
Columbus MT 59019
--------------




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:newbee
Date: 12 Sep 1998 21:08:31 EDT

From one "Grizz" to another,  howdy.  My  name is Wade Smith and I live in
Meridian, Idaho(8 miles west of Boise).  I know, Iknow,  it's not near
Seattle, but  I met some buckskinners from your area.     I will have to get
back to you with a name and address of the group that attended one of our
local rendezvous.  Talk to you soon.

ymhs(Your Most Humble Servant)
Wade



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 10:37:38 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Good morning:

Question:  Can you make charcloth in a gas bar-b-que? What kind of cloth =
is best to use and do you suggest a certain size. Thanks for the help.

Gail Carbiener

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Question:  Can you make =
charcloth in a gas=20
bar-b-que? What kind of cloth is best to use and do you suggest a =
certain size.=20
Thanks for the help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gail =
Carbiener</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BDDF02.873A1060--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bill Murphy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 13:36:39 -0500

At 10:37 AM 9/13/98 -0700, you wrote:
>    Good morning:     Can you make charcloth in a gas  bar-b-que? What kind
>of cloth is best to use and do you suggest a certain size.  Thanks for the
>help.   Gail Carbiener

   Speaking of char-clothe, I have not seen much discussion of the use of a
"burning lens" to start fire. Is it used on a char clothe, or directly on
very small kindling. Was it used much as opposed to flint and steel? (yeah,
I know, hard to use a burning lense in moonlight)

                            Bill




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 11:28:57 +0000

Gail, I have made char in a BBQ, but it is a waste of heat and gas. It is
better to concentrate the heat.  Don't do it on the kitchen stove, it
will stink up the house something awful ( I Know!).  I use a backpacking
stove, butane, it concentrates the heat- and can be used outside.  I have
dug a small hole in an inconspiquous place in the back yard, made a small
fire and set the can in that.  I like to use cotton webbing for my char,
it is more substantial when done, not so crumbly.  I use the stuff that
would be used on back pack straps, etc.... This webbing can be had in
very wide pieces, too.  Any good cotton (pure) will work, probably other
natural fabrics as well.  I use cotton, as it works, and is readily
available.  Another neat use for the wide webbing is as a candle wick.
Take a small can, say 3" across.  Use a 2 3/4" wide piece of webbing as a
wick, fill the can with wax.  This candle will warm up a small tent, and
cast a good light.  I hope this info. is of some use to you.  Hardtack

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 12:02:49 -0700

Bill, You got a good answer  from Randal and the only thing I can add is that I
use the punky wood fibers from inside very rotten birch logs to make excellent
char that is probably more likely what was used originally. There are other
forms of rotten wood that will char ok too. It is fun to experiment with
different material. Another material that works good is real course linen
fabric, as course as canvas. It just needs to be natural plant fibers.

To the question of burning glasses. They were used and are documented. They were
mounted in flattened wire frames with fancy little self hands. My friend
"Digger" John used one to light his pipe when ever the sun was out. ONe of the
things you need to look out for is that the lens will actually focus enough sun
heat to light the char. Not all lenses will work well. I have one in a Ted Cash
tobacco tin that just won't quit make the grade. But in any case, you get char
to smoldering and then blow the heat into you're tinder as you would if using
flint and steel. A really good lens will get unburned ( un charred material) to
smolder but it is an all day job to get enough heat to make fire.

Another chance to have fun experimenting, knowing that it can be done. Good
luck, I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Bill Murphy wrote:

> At 10:37 AM 9/13/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >    Good morning:     Can you make charcloth in a gas  bar-b-que? What kind
> >of cloth is best to use and do you suggest a certain size.  Thanks for the
> >help.   Gail Carbiener
>
>    Speaking of char-clothe, I have not seen much discussion of the use of a
> "burning lens" to start fire. Is it used on a char clothe, or directly on
> very small kindling. Was it used much as opposed to flint and steel? (yeah,
> I know, hard to use a burning lense in moonlight)
>
>                             Bill



Bill Murphy wrote:

> At 10:37 AM 9/13/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >    Good morning:     Can you make charcloth in a gas  bar-b-que? What kind
> >of cloth is best to use and do you suggest a certain size.  Thanks for the
> >help.   Gail Carbiener
>
>    Speaking of char-clothe, I have not seen much discussion of the use of a
> "burning lens" to start fire. Is it used on a char clothe, or directly on
> very small kindling. Was it used much as opposed to flint and steel? (yeah,
> I know, hard to use a burning lense in moonlight)
>
>                             Bill






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 16:02:19 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-13 13:37:47 EDT, you write:

<< Question:  Can you make charcloth in a gas bar-b-que? What kind of cloth is
best to use and do you suggest a certain size. Thanks for the help. >>

Don't see why not.  Almost any heat source that's hot enough to cook on will
make charcloth -- even your electric kitchen range -- 'cept ya won't like all
the smoke in the house.  The heat source isn't the trick.  The trick is the
closed can with the limited air & the cloth or fibers you're charing.  Any can
with a close fitting lid will work -- like a shoe polish can.  Poke a small
hole in the can -- I usualy stab the lid with a knife & put in about a 1/8"
long cut.  Cram the can full of your fibre to be chared -- this is important
-- realy pack it in to the point it's a little hard to get the lid back on,
but the lid will still STAY on.  Toss on the heat source & let it do it's
thing.  While it's "cooking", it'll smoke a LOT.  You may notice a flame start
off at the hole in the lid.  When the flame goes out on it's own, the char's
done -- but it doesn't hurt to cook longer -- until it quits smoking or even
longer.  I've seen good char come out of a can that was forgotten & left in
the campfire all night.  Now comes another critical part.  Allow the can to
fully cool down to where you can pick it up with your bare fingers.  This is
important!  Open the can while it's too hot, & the char will instantly flame
up & it's gone.  Also -- don't stick it under the water tap to cool it -- you
want this stuff DRY!

  As for char material -- almost any natural fiber.  Cotton cloth works good &
is probably most used, but don't forget tow (unprocessed linen fibers that
have many other uses in our time frame), shreaded tree bark (birch & cedar
seem to work well) even "punk wood" -- half rotted wood that's soft & crumbly.
Some moss works well.  At this point, "expiramental archeology" comes in -- go
out in the woods & find stuff to char & see if it works -- you'll be surprised
how much stuff WILL work as char once cooked (even non-synthetic lint from
your clothes dryer).  Size of char?  Well -- with cotton cloth, cut about 1" -
1 1/2" squares.  I failed to mention linen cloth will work too, but it's a bit
expensive unless you have unusable scraps.  The other materials I mentioned
are "sized" when you remove them from the can at the time you'll use them.
Once cooked, you'll want to put your chat into another can with a close
fitting lid (without the hole) to keep it dry & ready to use.  If your chat
gets damp, put it in your "cooking can" & set out in the sun.  The sun's heat
on the black can will dry it out nicely in about 1 hr or so.

Hope this helps, & happy fire starting!

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Christian missionaries to Rendezvous
Date: 13 Sep 1998 16:02:20 EDT

You can also check with Dean Ruddy -- he has some of the letters Narcissa
Whitman wrote on line for down loading.  Another book that mentions
missionaries & has some excerpts from their writings is "Rocky Mountain
Rendezvous" by Fred R. Gowans -- ISBN 0-87905-193-0.  You'll be intrested in
the entries for 1836, 37, 38, 39, & 40.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 16:10:24 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-13 15:04:53 EDT, you write:

<< To the question of burning glasses. They were used and are documented. They
were
 mounted in flattened wire frames with fancy little self hands. My friend
 "Digger" John used one to light his pipe when ever the sun was out. >>

I've done that -- works good.  Whe I first tried it, I didn't use the char &
it wouldn't work, but with the char, works great -- even on partly clowdy days
if you have a good lense.
NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 16:10:21 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-13 15:04:53 EDT, you write:

<< To the question of burning glasses. They were used and are documented. They
were
 mounted in flattened wire frames with fancy little self hands. My friend
 "Digger" John used one to light his pipe when ever the sun was out. >>

I've done that -- works good.  Whe I first tried it, I didn't use the char &
it wouldn't work, but with the char, works great -- even on partly clowdy days
if you have a good lense.
NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 13 Sep 1998 17:37:28 EDT

Ho the List

John Seminerio
84-19 91 Avenue
Woodhaven, NY 11421 (Yes in the Big City)

How about putting up an achive.  I got a lot of great ideas for kids
activities when I asked for them.  HOW ABOUT AN EVENTS LIST SO WE MIGHT
ACTUALLY MEET EACH OTHER ? ? ?  Let me know if I can help.

Watch your topknot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Johnny Rutledge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 16:37:04 -0500

Ok I have a question.  Does char-cloth get old and not hold a spark good.
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 98-09-13 15:04:53 EDT, you write:
>
><< To the question of burning glasses. They were used and are documented.
They
>were
> mounted in flattened wire frames with fancy little self hands. My friend
> "Digger" John used one to light his pipe when ever the sun was out. >>
>
>I've done that -- works good.  Whe I first tried it, I didn't use the char
&
>it wouldn't work, but with the char, works great -- even on partly clowdy
days
>if you have a good lense.
>NM
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 15:36:38 -0700

Johnny, I have had some char cloth of unknown vintage that seemed to have lost
its warm loving feeling. I'm not sure whether it was originally of the wrong
material or whether it had gone "stale" as you suggested might happen. Did you
have some char that went bad? I also inherited some char from a friend who gave
me her flint and steel kit (in a Cash can) and it seemed to work just fine and
had been in the little can inside the brass container for probably ten years at
least. 'Bout' all I know on that subject. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Johnny Rutledge wrote:

> Ok I have a question.  Does char-cloth get old and not hold a spark good.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Sunday, September 13, 1998 3:11 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
>
> >In a message dated 98-09-13 15:04:53 EDT, you write:
> >
> ><< To the question of burning glasses. They were used and are documented.
> They
> >were
> > mounted in flattened wire frames with fancy little self hands. My friend
> > "Digger" John used one to light his pipe when ever the sun was out. >>
> >
> >I've done that -- works good.  Whe I first tried it, I didn't use the char
> &
> >it wouldn't work, but with the char, works great -- even on partly clowdy
> days
> >if you have a good lense.
> >NM
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 19:58:33 EDT

Dear Gail,  yes yes yes to the bar-b-que; done it many times; use darn near
any kind of 100% untreated cotton, and cut it into about 1 to 2 inch squares.
take a can with a removable or hinged top, make a bailing wire handle if
necessary, and using a nail, punch a small hole in the top. stack the squares
inside, put the top on, and set the can down in the coals. let it 'cook' JUST
until it stops spewing smoke from the hole,then remove the can from the heat,
drop the nail in the hole to close it up and let it cool COMPLETELY. voila'.
when you open the can you should have black squares of charred cotton, not too
brittle, unless you over-cooked it. if its not done enough, it can be put back
on the heat to finish up. the smoke stopping is the best indicator of when its
done. hope this helps.  yhs, PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 20:08:51 EDT

Dear Bill, I've had very limited success using a burning lens directly on
tinder. Mostly it gets to smoldering, but not to burning. You may have a
chance with very dry grasses but it takes a long time and a steady hand; seems
like starting almost any charred material (cotton, punk-wood, etc) with a lens
is a heck of a lot easier PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 13 Sep 1998 18:03:13 -0400

Aye... the Tad Cash lens is not that good.  A couple of years ago at the
Alifia I bought several lenses about 2" across... made a small leather pouch
to keep it in... and it works great.  Forgot all about the lenses in my
trying to use flint and steel.  I'll add taht to my web page...

Seanbear
aka Addison Miller
-----Original Message-----


>Bill, You got a good answer  from Randal and the only thing I can add is
that I
>use the punky wood fibers from inside very rotten birch logs to make
excellent
>char that is probably more likely what was used originally. There are other
>forms of rotten wood that will char ok too. It is fun to experiment with
>different material. Another material that works good is real course linen
>fabric, as course as canvas. It just needs to be natural plant fibers.
>
>To the question of burning glasses. They were used and are documented. They
were
>mounted in flattened wire frames with fancy little self hands. My friend
>"Digger" John used one to light his pipe when ever the sun was out. ONe of
the
>things you need to look out for is that the lens will actually focus enough
sun
>heat to light the char. Not all lenses will work well. I have one in a Ted
Cash
>tobacco tin that just won't quit make the grade. But in any case, you get
char
>to smoldering and then blow the heat into you're tinder as you would if
using
>flint and steel. A really good lens will get unburned ( un charred
material) to
>smolder but it is an all day job to get enough heat to make fire.
>
>Another chance to have fun experimenting, knowing that it can be done. Good
>luck, I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Bill Murphy wrote:
>
>> At 10:37 AM 9/13/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> >    Good morning:     Can you make charcloth in a gas  bar-b-que? What
kind
>> >of cloth is best to use and do you suggest a certain size.  Thanks for
the
>> >help.   Gail Carbiener
>>
>>    Speaking of char-clothe, I have not seen much discussion of the use of
a
>> "burning lens" to start fire. Is it used on a char clothe, or directly on
>> very small kindling. Was it used much as opposed to flint and steel?
(yeah,
>> I know, hard to use a burning lense in moonlight)
>>
>>                             Bill
>
>
>
>Bill Murphy wrote:
>
>> At 10:37 AM 9/13/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> >    Good morning:     Can you make charcloth in a gas  bar-b-que? What
kind
>> >of cloth is best to use and do you suggest a certain size.  Thanks for
the
>> >help.   Gail Carbiener
>>
>>    Speaking of char-clothe, I have not seen much discussion of the use of
a
>> "burning lens" to start fire. Is it used on a char clothe, or directly on
>> very small kindling. Was it used much as opposed to flint and steel?
(yeah,
>> I know, hard to use a burning lense in moonlight)
>>
>>                             Bill
>
>
>
>




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From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Char cloth
Date: 13 Sep 1998 20:03:22 -0700

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It worked!

Thanks to all who sent response on char cloth in the Gas Bar-b-que. I =
just finished with about 50 pieces in a can with two nail holes in the =
bar-b-que for about 30 minutes. I let it cool through dinner and on the =
second strike with the flint... it worked beatifully. It caught and =
stayed bright orange, got to be about dime size before I put it out. My =
wife figured I was going to burn down the house!
CAN YOU TELL IT WAS MY FIRST TIME!   =20
  =20
Thanks again to all
Gail Carbiener

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>It worked!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks to all who sent response on =
char cloth in=20
the Gas Bar-b-que. I just finished with about 50 pieces in a can with =
two nail=20
holes in the bar-b-que for about 30 minutes. I let it cool through =
dinner and on=20
the second strike with the flint... it worked beatifully. It caught and =
stayed=20
bright orange, got to be about dime size before I put it out. My wife =
figured I=20
was going to burn down the house!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>CAN YOU TELL IT WAS MY FIRST=20
TIME!    </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>   </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks again to all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gail =
Carbiener</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: David Fritsch:off topic
Date: 14 Sep 1998 03:13:10 -0500

David,drop me a line,My puter crashed and I lost my e-mail address file.
Jeff Powers



If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 14 Sep 1998 03:13:24 -0500

   >>    Good morning:     Can you make charcloth in a gas  bar-b-que?
   >>What kind of cloth is best to use and do you suggest a certain
   >>size.  Thanks for the help.   Gail Carbiener
   >Speaking of char-clothe, I have not seen much discussion of the use
   >of a "burning lens" to start fire. Is it used on a char clothe, or
   >directly on very small kindling. Was it used much as opposed to
   >flint and steel? (yeah, I know, hard to use a burning lense in
   >moonlight)
   >Bill
         Fr. Henepin's accounts of trade goods(1689, If I remember it)
listed "burning lenses" at about double the # of strike a lites that they
had in stock.
Jeff



If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Location List
Date: 14 Sep 1998 09:56:35 -0700

Good morning all!

I am stashing all the replies to the Location List message
thread, and so far have five or six folks wanting too be listed
and a couple of offers to merge with other existing lists.

I checked out the other lists, and there is some merit to that
idea, although they do not just now have very many of the names I
have been seeing on our list on them, it seems to be a win / win
deal if we post our info on them.  I don't feel that I have the
right to submit other members data to those lists however, so
presently when I get a better list of US gathered I will email
those who asked to be on our list with suggested 'net addresses
-- URL's -- of the better lists I've found and invite them to
submit there as well.

I still think that we could profit from a list of our own,
stashed somewhere handy around here, and I hope we can get more
of our members included.  That's a suggestion folks, HINT, HINT!
Please let me know if you folks agree and want to be a part of
our list.  Also feel free to suggest ideas to make our efforts
work better too.....

Your not especially humble scribe type servant,

Gary Bell





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: 14 Sep 1998 20:52:04 -0600

approve ushsetxt subscribe hist_text [e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: phyllis nowosad <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Joseph Renville
Date: 14 Sep 1998 19:23:10 +0100

Hi ,
I am a decendent of Joseph Renville. First of all he was not an Anglophone. He
was a Metis,( part French part Indian, mixed or half breed is referred to when
the person is half Anglo and Indian) and the original Joseph DeRainville was
French from Britagne France. Other than that the Renvilles were part French
and part Souix. The original Joseph De Rainville married a Souix women fromt
he family of Petit Corbeau, father of Little Crow last great Chief of the Souix.
Phyllis Nowosad



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 15 Sep 1998 08:50:26 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-13 17:41:47 EDT, you write:

<<(Johnny Rutledge)
 Ok I have a question.  Does char-cloth get old and not hold a spark good.
 - >>
It can get damp if you do not keep it in an air tight container.  And once it
is damp (and this is true of your tinder/tow as well) it is tough if not
impossible to get to burn.  I have heated it in a oven and got it dryed out
again but it also tends to get crumbly so now I just make new.

Your humble servant,

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 15 Sep 1998 03:29:53 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-13 17:41:47 EDT, you write:

<< Ok I have a question.  Does char-cloth get old and not hold a spark good.
>>

Not if it's dry.  Sometimes it'll get realy crumbly & fall appart, but even
then, if it's dry, it'll work.  If you have some that isn't working, you can
dry it & try again.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 15 Sep 1998 08:50:25 EDT

I'm happy to help out any newbee, we live in western New York 14423 zip area,
E-mail at [e-mail].



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 15 Sep 1998 19:24:32 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I'm happy to help out any newbee, we live in western New York 14423 zip area,
> E-mail at [e-mail].

Same here from Central NY....zip is 14882.

Fred



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
Date: 15 Sep 1998 20:50:33 -0700

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To all:

    Has anyone read or know about the book: "Conibear Beaver Trapping in =
Open Water: Master Beaver Trapping Techniques"   by Wesley Murphy?

    I'm sure it is not of the period, but wonder if  it gives good =
descriptions, etc.

Gail Carbiener

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>To all:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>    Has anyone read =
or know about=20
the book: "Conibear Beaver Trapping in Open Water: Master Beaver =
Trapping=20
Techniques"   by Wesley Murphy?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>    I'm sure it is =
not of the=20
period, but wonder if  it gives good descriptions, =
etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gail =
Carbiener</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Web Site Addition
Date: 15 Sep 1998 22:14:07 -0600

The latest addition to the "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade" web site is the
complete text of Brackenridge's "Journal of a Voyage up the Missouri River
in 1811", from his book "Views of Lousiana...", published in 1814.  It may
be found at:


http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/Brackenridge/index.html

Henry Marie Brackenridge ascended the Missouri River in 1811 with a party of
the Missouri Fur Company, led by Manuel Lisa. That same year, a party of
the Pacific Fur
Company bound for Astoria and led by Wilson Price Hunt was also ascending
the river.
Brackenridge's Journal is an important historical source for both these
expeditions.

This electronic transcription and annotation of the journal was contributed
by James Kyle, Missouri Coalition of Historical Trekkers.

Coming soon - Bradbury's "Travels..."



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Glenda Ryan <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Brain Tanning
Date: 16 Sep 1998 09:02:18 -0600

My hubby and I are tanning hides in our usual fasion.  However, since I've
been cruising the information superhighway, I discovered a method that
requires pre-smoking the hides.  In otherwords, after fleshing, dehairing,
braining, stretching and drying the hide, it is smoked, brained again,
worked again, and smoked again.

Has anyone else tried this twice-smoked method?  How did it work?

This method by Joseph and Virginia Dinsmore is found on the NativeTech.com
web site.

Thanks!
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 07:28:20 -0600

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Gail,=20

Conibear and similar body-grip traps are of very modern design, so even =
though that book isn't in my library I'm confident that it doesn't focus =
on period methods of trapping beaver.

You might try Beaver Trapping Miller Style by Dirk Miller.  It contains =
lots of contemporary beaver trapping techniques, but is the only bood =
I've found that also describes methods that could have been effectively =
used by mountain men in the 1820 to 1840 period. =20

Unlike most people writing books about beaver trapping, Miller traps his =
beaver in the high mountain streams of the Rocky Mountains and so his =
techniques are better adapted to the same environment where the mountain =
men trapped.  Particularly applicable are the techniques that Miller =
describes for anchoring traps and drowning beaver.  The same concepts =
were esposed by professional tapper Calvin Cobb at the AMM Western =
Nationals this year.

Most of the books you'll find have trapping techniques that evolved for =
efficiency for tappers wearing waders, carrying lots of wire, and =
trapping in bottomlands where it is easy to drive stakes into deep =
soils.  Miller teaches a method that a primative trapper could use in =
freezing temperature with wading up to his butt in freezing water, and =
could successfully drown beaver with no wire or other materials not =
available in 1830. =20

You can buy Miller's book from Montgomery Fur in Ogden, UT.

Dave
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Gail Carbiener <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 10:16 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
   =20
   =20
    To all:
    =20
        Has anyone read or know about the book: "Conibear Beaver =
Trapping in Open Water: Master Beaver Trapping Techniques"   by Wesley =
Murphy?
    =20
        I'm sure it is not of the period, but wonder if  it gives good =
descriptions, etc.
    =20
    Gail Carbiener

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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gail, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Conibear and similar body-grip traps are of very =
modern=20
design, so even though that book isn't in my library I'm confident that =
it=20
doesn't focus on period methods of trapping beaver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You might try Beaver Trapping Miller Style by Dirk=20
Miller.  It contains lots of contemporary beaver trapping =
techniques, but=20
is the only bood I've found that also describes methods that could have =
been=20
effectively used by mountain men in the 1820 to 1840 period.  =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Unlike most people writing books about beaver =
trapping, Miller=20
traps his beaver in the high mountain streams of the Rocky Mountains and =
so his=20
techniques are better adapted to the same environment where the mountain =
men=20
trapped.  Particularly applicable are the techniques that Miller =
describes=20
for anchoring traps and drowning beaver.  The same concepts were =
esposed by=20
professional tapper Calvin Cobb at the AMM Western Nationals this=20
year.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Most of the books you'll find have trapping =
techniques that=20
evolved for efficiency for tappers wearing waders, carrying lots of =
wire, and=20
trapping in bottomlands where it is easy to drive stakes into deep =
soils. =20
Miller teaches a method that a primative trapper could use in freezing=20
temperature with wading up to his butt in freezing water, and could =
successfully=20
drown beaver with no wire or other materials not available in =
1830. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You can buy Miller's book from Montgomery Fur in =
Ogden,=20
UT.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dave</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Gail Carbiener <<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: </B><A =

    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
<<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, September 15, 1998 10:16 PM<BR><B>Subject: =
</B>MtMan-List:=20
    Beaver Book...<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>To all:</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>    Has anyone =
read or know=20
    about the book: "Conibear Beaver Trapping in Open Water: Master =
Beaver=20
    Trapping Techniques"   by Wesley Murphy?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>    I'm sure it =
is not of the=20
    period, but wonder if  it gives good descriptions, =
etc.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gail=20
Carbiener</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Locacation List?
Date: 16 Sep 1998 06:28:42 EDT

We would be pleased to help any puritans into our 'vous ways.  My fiancee does
Mt. Man and I do the Native American woodland female.   Located in Cincinnati,
Ohio 45220.

Red Hawk and Two Wolves
[e-mail]  (I am the proud owner of 3 hybred Timber Wolves)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Location List?
Date: 16 Sep 1998 01:31:09 EDT

Dave "Longshot" Hunt
St. Louis, Mo.
63126
[e-mail]
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wayne Mumford <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Web Site Addition
Date: 15 Sep 1998 11:05:37 -0600

Henry Marie Brackenridge also gives one of the accounts of "Colter's
run" in this journal. Bradbury also has some Colter stuff in it. Great
reading- a good look at life on the river in the early going. Is there
anything yet on Thomas Nuttall(sp?) ?

--
Frontier Filmworks
Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
Locations-Prints-Stock Images
The Lewis & Clark Trail
http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tommy Edge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 12:10:10 +0000

> From:          "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
> To:            <[e-mail]>
> Subject:       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
> Date:          Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:28:20 -0600
> Reply-to:      [e-mail]

> You can buy Miller's book from Montgomery Fur in Ogden, UT.
Do they have a web page or a catalog. How do I get yo them?
Thank You   Tommy Edge
I make Knives.
http://www.nex.net/tedge/

A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 15:20:18 EDT

Sterling Fur Co. has a large suerlection of trapping books.. Most all are a
good sorce of knowledge.  Sterling Fur Co. @ Box 125G4, Frick Rd. Sterling, OH
44276 or Phone @ 330-939-3763.  I'm from Okla. and have done quit a bit of
Beaver trapping, and plan to do more this winter.  If your close or I can help
let me know.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men
Date: 16 Sep 1998 19:22:02 -0700


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Michael Naples wrote:

>        I am interested in getting information a mountain man by the name of
> Francisco Laforet.
> a place called San Antonio del Rio Colorado when it was part of Mexican
> Territory.
> Today it is called Questa.

Questa Is today in New Mexico, North of  Taos.  I would Suggest looking at books
such as Wah To Yah &  The Taos Trail  And other books dealing with Taos.  Hope
this Helps some.

--------------24E5DE026B0DDF75C3413539
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>


<P>Michael Naples wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>

<P>       I am interested in getting information
a mountain man by the name of
<BR>Francisco Laforet.
<BR>a place called San Antonio del Rio Colorado when it was part of Mexican
<BR>Territory.
<BR>Today it is called Questa.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Questa Is today in New Mexico, North of  Taos.  I would Suggest
looking at books such as <U>Wah To Yah &  The Taos Trail </U>
And other books dealing with Taos.  Hope this Helps some. </HTML>

--------------24E5DE026B0DDF75C3413539--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 16 Sep 1998 19:33:07 -0700



Just a note, I got some scraps of pure linen, fustian etc at the western
primitive in Nevada this summer, and it is the best damn char I have ever used.
All of you sutlers and makers of fine linen, fustian etc.clothing would be great
friends to us all if you brought that scrap to ronnyvoo, and let us have it for
char.  You could even charge for it.  But the Christian thing to do would be to
offer it free, which is how I got mine.

Keep yur hair,
Sega



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 16:33:27 -0500

Trapper Joe wrote,
> Sterling Fur Co. has a large suerlection of trapping books.. Most all are
a
> good sorce of knowledge.  Sterling Fur Co. @ Box 125G4, Frick Rd.
Sterling, OH
> 44276 or Phone @ 330-939-3763.  I'm from Okla. and have done quit a bit
of
> Beaver trapping, and plan to do more this winter.  If your close or I can
help
> let me know.

Thanks! Planning on moving back to VA this winter and this information will
come in handy.
YellowFeather



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 09:37:55 -0400

KEN:
didnt realize you were also a beaver trapper---I thought that you and I
were the last of the professional "NOGGIE" trappers around---but as they
say a trapper is a trapper and a mountain man is always looking for
shineing times---say about 17 oct---have a few traps in st louis---do you
need any---dont have any konibears---BD Young has a bunch---can check
with him--that is what everyone has gone too.  You will see a lot of
beaver sign at EOLA and you might get a chance to pop one"trapping season
starts "1 oct" i think--- and I will show you how to cook beaver tail
right----"it don't tast like chicken" more like bear  and with a little
bit of "texas peat" of "texas lava", "it will make a child strike his
daddy" ---the key is in the cooking.

BTW: One tail will serve easily 2 and we might put a few fresh rainbow
trout with it to add to the meal:  if not will surely add the trout after
the hunt.

I aintr got no castorium---"so tink 69 will have to do" and probably all
the beaver we see will have big horns or be three pointers---"lets hope"
"going to be shineing times"--- deer hooter and raddeling horns are in
the box--remember if you need it "its in the box" "and if you have it you
might use it---Iron toung says to have me get your mind off the pain and
back to the mountains and communication with the big maker.---gave iron
toung the formula for "the over the log drink".   waiting for a jag and
will ship his new ramrod--may have to make it in st louis if it dont come
in by the 8th

   YMHOSAPNT
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:33:27 -0500 "Ken" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Trapper Joe wrote,
>> Sterling Fur Co. has a large suerlection of trapping books.. Most
>all are
>a
>> good sorce of knowledge.  Sterling Fur Co. @ Box 125G4, Frick Rd.
>Sterling, OH
>> 44276 or Phone @ 330-939-3763.  I'm from Okla. and have done quit a
>bit
>of
>> Beaver trapping, and plan to do more this winter.  If your close or
>I can
>help
>> let me know.
>
>Thanks! Planning on moving back to VA this winter and this information
>will
>come in handy.
>YellowFeather
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 06:47:15 -0600

Montgomery Fur Company
1539 West 3375 South
Ogden, UT  84401

Phone: [phone]

Their new catalog is out and available for the asking.  You can also find
their full page adds in all of the national trapping periodicals.
Montgomery Fur is the manufacturer of the Bridger No.5 double longspring
trap, the only currently manufactured trap that is close in size, weight,
and design to the traps used during the latter part of the Rocky Mountain
Fur Trade.

-----Original Message-----


> From:          "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
> To:            <[e-mail]>
> Subject:       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
> Date:          Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:28:20 -0600
> Reply-to:      [e-mail]

> You can buy Miller's book from Montgomery Fur in Ogden, UT.
Do they have a web page or a catalog. How do I get yo them?
Thank You   Tommy Edge
I make Knives.
http://www.nex.net/tedge/

A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 20:05:32 -0700

David Tippets wrote:
>
> Gail,
>
> Conibear and similar body-grip traps are of very modern design, so
> even though that book isn't in my library I'm confident that it
> doesn't focus on period methods of trapping beaver.
>
Caught myself once.  Guess that don't count, 'cause it aint period.
Ever try and get one of them conibear's off your arm all by yourself
about 8 miles from home?  Finally got it off and set in a runway just
out of the water, and the next morning I had the biggest porkypine I've
ever seen.  Give up on beaver trappin' and went tried coyote.  That
critter dug up and sprung all my traps but one, and he took a dump on
that one.  If I need a hide I've found it's easier and probably cheaper
to buy it already tanned.  Aint near so embarassing either.
                DN



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sam Keller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 17 Sep 1998 07:02:43 -0500

Any kind of natural fiber cloth will work as char. But I have a major =
objection to using cloth as char. Can you imagine the amount of cloth you =
would have to carry for a winters fire starting. 4 square inches (2" x 2") =
of cloth makes a piece of char large enough to start a fire. 3 fires a =
day, 7 days a week, requires 84 square inches of cloth. A year spent in =
the wilderness will require 3 =BD square yards of cloth, an extravegent =
(sic) expense. There are natural materials that can be foraged from the =
field that will work, albeit not as easialy as cloth.
YMOS
Sleeping Bear

>>> Chris Sega <[e-mail]> 09/16/98 09:33PM >>>


Just a note, I got some scraps of pure linen, fustian etc at the western
primitive in Nevada this summer, and it is the best damn char I have ever =
used.
All of you sutlers and makers of fine linen, fustian etc.clothing would be =
great
friends to us all if you brought that scrap to ronnyvoo, and let us have =
it for
char.  You could even charge for it.  But the Christian thing to do would =
be to
offer it free, which is how I got mine.

Keep yur hair,
Sega



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 10:21:38 EDT

Just in case anyone is interested Arkansas is having it State trapping
association rendezvous this weekend at petie jean state park.
I'll be there
Also I make and sell what I believe is the best buck lure around.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 17 Sep 1998 10:19:56 -0400

Although I agree with you that using fabric to make char would have =
been
wasteful, I have to take exception to your formula. I normally use a =
piece
about the size of my thumbnail to make fire, maybe =BD inch square. I =
just
stick this inside my nest of tinder and it seems to be plenty. Just my =
2
cents
=20
Kirk Mill
=20

    -----Original Message-----
    From:    Sam Keller [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Thursday, September 17, 1998 8:03 AM
    To:    [e-mail]; [e-mail]
    Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..

    Any kind of natural fiber cloth will work as char. But I have a
major objection to using cloth as char. Can you imagine the amount of =
cloth
you would have to carry for a winters fire starting. 4 square inches =
(2" x
2") of cloth makes a piece of char large enough to start a fire. 3 =
fires a
day, 7 days a week, requires 84 square inches of cloth.=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Book...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 09:25:54 -0500

Hawk wrote,

> KEN:
> didnt realize you were also a beaver trapper---I thought that you and I
> were the last of the professional "NOGGIE" trappers around---but as they
> say a trapper is a trapper and a mountain man is always looking for
> shineing times
Yeah, I trapped possum, coon, beaver, and a few fox. Traded a fox pelt and
a 45-100 Sharps bullet for my bow that I'll be bringing with me.
---say about 17 oct---
Sounds good to me, I'm planning on two weeks worth!
have a few traps in st louis---do you
> need any--
Yeah, and I hate those new fangled traps! I read where that other feller
had a coyote take a dump on one. He should have given that thing a decent
burial! He ain't the only feller trapper to have a coyote laugh at him! Add
yours truly to that list.

it don't tast like chicken" more like bear  and with a little
> bit of "texas peat" of "texas lava", "it will make a child strike his
> daddy" ---the key is in the cooking.
I think I'd rather eat grubs! You can always swaller them whole. They
aren't too bad if you have some real butter to cook them in. Heat the pan,
dump in some butter, wait til it smokes a little and then throw in the
grubs. Just scorch them a little and eat.
> BTW: One tail will serve easily 2 and we might put a few fresh rainbow
> trout with it to add to the meal:  if not will surely add the trout after
> the hunt.

Hope we catch some trout!

-Iron toung says to have me get your mind off the pain and
> back to the mountains and communication with the big maker.

Sounds like a winner to me!
---gave iron
> toung the formula for "the over the log drink".   waiting for a jag and
> will ship his new ramrod--may have to make it in st louis if it dont come
> in by the 8th
I'll see you the 17th or maybe a little sooner. The data Butch sent was
great. Printed out a map of ES and plotted a course through OK to the
corner of Arkansas. Should be a real pretty drive. I'll be in the Taz
Tracker so I'll bring some 5 gallon water containers for that dry camp. We
will be the only ones there with a modern fully equipped weather station on
wheels!
YMDS,
YellowFeather

>    YMHOSAPNT
>          =+=
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:33:27 -0500 "Ken" <[e-mail]>
> writes:
> >Trapper Joe wrote,
> >> Sterling Fur Co. has a large suerlection of trapping books.. Most
> >all are
> >a
> >> good sorce of knowledge.  Sterling Fur Co. @ Box 125G4, Frick Rd.
> >Sterling, OH
> >> 44276 or Phone @ 330-939-3763.  I'm from Okla. and have done quit a
> >bit
> >of
> >> Beaver trapping, and plan to do more this winter.  If your close or
> >I can
> >help
> >> let me know.
> >
> >Thanks! Planning on moving back to VA this winter and this information
> >will
> >come in handy.
> >YellowFeather
> >
> >
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 17 Sep 1998 16:01:02 -0500


Sam
Good to finally see you on this list.  Charred cottonwood and pine (and
probably many other species of wood) will catch a spark pretty easily if =
it
is not kept forever--thus picking up moisture from the air-- and can hard=
ly
be extingished.   "Punky" wood serves best but is not strictly necessary.
Charred wood can be made in your trusty char can but you can make
serviceable charred wood for fire making purposes by digging a small hole
near the fire, raking a few likely looking hot coals into it and burying
them with dirt.  The charcoal is then excavated in a few hours and stashe=
d
with your fire makin's. The hole serves the same purpose as a char can an=
d
one can be found near just about any fire (just pick up a little dirt and=
 lo
and behold, there it is!!) and can be left behind when you are through..
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----
[e-mail] <[e-mail]>


Any kind of natural fiber cloth will work as char. But I have a major
objection to using cloth as char. Can you imagine the amount of cloth you
would have to carry for a winters fire starting. 4 square inches (2" x 2"=
)
of cloth makes a piece of char large enough to start a fire. 3 fires a da=
y,
7 days a week, requires 84 square inches of cloth. A year spent in the
wilderness will require 3 =BD square yards of cloth, an extravegent (sic)
expense. There are natural materials that can be foraged from the field t=
hat
will work, albeit not as easialy as cloth.
YMOS
Sleeping Bear

>>> Chris Sega <[e-mail]> 09/16/98 09:33PM >>>


Just a note, I got some scraps of pure linen, fustian etc at the western
primitive in Nevada this summer, and it is the best damn char I have ever
used.
All of you sutlers and makers of fine linen, fustian etc.clothing would b=
e
great
friends to us all if you brought that scrap to ronnyvoo, and let us have =
it
for
char.  You could even charge for it.  But the Christian thing to do would=
 be
to
offer it free, which is how I got mine.

Keep yur hair,
Sega



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sam Keller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 17 Sep 1998 16:48:26 -0500

I totally agree, and this goes with what I am trying to get across. Who =
would have wanted to "burn" cloth better suited for clothing?

S.B.

>>> "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]> 09/17/98 04:01PM >>>

Sam
Good to finally see you on this list.  Charred cottonwood and pine (and
probably many other species of wood) will catch a spark pretty easily if =
it
is not kept forever--thus picking up moisture from the air-- and can =
hardly
be extingished.   "Punky" wood serves best but is not strictly necessary.
Charred wood can be made in your trusty char can but you can make
serviceable charred wood for fire making purposes by digging a small hole
near the fire, raking a few likely looking hot coals into it and burying
them with dirt.  The charcoal is then excavated in a few hours and stashed
with your fire makin's. The hole serves the same purpose as a char can and
one can be found near just about any fire (just pick up a little dirt and =
lo
and behold, there it is!!) and can be left behind when you are through..
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----
[e-mail] <[e-mail]>


Any kind of natural fiber cloth will work as char. But I have a major
objection to using cloth as char. Can you imagine the amount of cloth you
would have to carry for a winters fire starting. 4 square inches (2" x 2")
of cloth makes a piece of char large enough to start a fire. 3 fires a =
day,
7 days a week, requires 84 square inches of cloth. A year spent in the
wilderness will require 3 =BD square yards of cloth, an extravegent (sic)
expense. There are natural materials that can be foraged from the field =
that
will work, albeit not as easialy as cloth.
YMOS
Sleeping Bear

>>> Chris Sega <[e-mail]> 09/16/98 09:33PM >>>


Just a note, I got some scraps of pure linen, fustian etc at the western
primitive in Nevada this summer, and it is the best damn char I have ever
used.
All of you sutlers and makers of fine linen, fustian etc.clothing would be
great
friends to us all if you brought that scrap to ronnyvoo, and let us have =
it
for
char.  You could even charge for it.  But the Christian thing to do would =
be
to
offer it free, which is how I got mine.

Keep yur hair,
Sega



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 17 Sep 1998 20:13:38 -0600

At 04:48 PM 9/17/98 -0500, Sam wrote:
>I totally agree, and this goes with what I am trying to get across. Who
would have wanted to "burn" cloth better suited for clothing?
>

Probably no one - but a cotton shirt doesn't last all that long in the
wilderness.  They can get shredded/threadbare pretty quick with full-time
use.  Consider that one worn-out cotton shirt probably has 3 sq yards of
material.  As Sam observed, that would be enough to make fires for almost a
year.  And it's reasonable to assume that small groups of men shared a
single fire.  Records indicate that cotton shirts were common purchases at
rendezvous.  So one worn-out shirt per party per year doesn't seem like
that much of a stretch to me.  They could also use the scrap cloth for gun
patches.  But it's all speculation, unless somebody knows of a source that
describes first-hand what they used for char (or gun patches for that matter).

-Dean



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 17 Sep 1998 21:36:14 EDT

Birch bark burns like tissue even without charing.  I haven't tried it but I
bet it would really work good chared.  Birch bark even burns like paper wet.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 17 Sep 1998 23:02:23 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-17 10:00:36 EDT, you write:

<< Can you imagine the amount of cloth you would have to carry for a winters
fire starting. 4 square inches (2" x 2") of cloth makes a piece of char large
enough to start a fire. 3 fires a day, 7 days a week, requires 84 square
inches of cloth.  >>

No it doesn't!  Ever hear of "banking a fire"?  It's an art for which we have
kinda lost the skill.  Read almost any "settlement story" & at bed time,
they'll usualy refer at least once to "banking the fire".  This was a method
used before matches of holding live coals over night so in the morning all
that was needed was a little tender, twigs, a few blows on the coals either by
lung power or a bellows & POOF! -- you had fire agin.  Try burrying a bunch of
hot coals in the ashes & see if you don't have at least one good hot live one
the next morning.  With this common method, the only time char cloth was
needed was for a new location or in case the coals were put out by rain if the
fire wasn't protected properly.  If a trapper was on the moove, he'd build a
fire in the evening with flint & steel, bank it, then light the morning fire
off the previous evening's coals.  At noon, he might build a fire, but more
than likely not.  In Winter camp, he may have needed to "start fresh" once or
twice a month if he was careful or moved to another location.  Then too, there
was the practice of carrying coals with them.  That practice dates back to
cave man days & certain Indian tribes did it too for ceremonial fires.  Wish I
could remember where I read it, but one medicine man bragged his fire was over
50 years old because he carried the coals & relit the new fires from the
previous ones with this method.  Then too, as others have pointed out, worn
out shirts, punk wood, moss, & several other materials were used for char when
needed.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Terry Landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 17 Sep 1998 19:30:00 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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would a Virginia style rifle be period correct during the fur trade era? if
not then when would that style date to?
                      Terry

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D800572102-18091998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20
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if not then when would that style date to?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D800572102-18091998><FONT color=3D#000000 =
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Terry</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 17 Sep 1998 20:03:58 -0700



Sam Keller wrote:

> I totally agree, and this goes with what I am trying to get across. Who=
 would have wanted to "burn" cloth better suited for clothing?
>
> We know that the brigades brought cloth for the making of shirts etc.& =
thousands of yards of canvas went into the west with the
> brigades during the fur trade and hence scrap (small pieces not large e=
nough for shirts or other useful items ) was produced.  I dont
> think they discarded it.
>
>
>
>  But I have a major
> objection to using cloth as char. Can you imagine the amount of cloth y=
ou
> would have to carry for a winters fire starting. 4 square inches (2" x =
2")
>  makes a piece of char large enough to start a fire. 3 fires a day,
> 7 days a week, requires 84 square inches of cloth. A year spent in the
> wilderness will require 3 =BD square yards of cloth, an extravegent (si=
c)
> expense.

The majority of the mountain men were not free trappers, and even the fre=
e trappers did not travel alone as a rule.  Men alone in the
mountains died more often than not.  When 6 men share a fire it takes onl=
y 1 piece of char to light it.  I also doubt that anyone needs 3
fires a day. Sure wood was used but I think charred cloth was commonly us=
ed and carried.  Ever tried to light a fire in a snow storm with
a chunk of charred pine?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 18 Sep 1998 09:38:54 EDT

In a message dated 9/17/98 Terry writes:

<< would a Virginia style rifle be period correct during the fur trade era? if
 not then when would that style date to? >>

   Sure Terry, I should think many a young man headed fer them shinnin'
mountains with his Pap's or possibly his Grandpap's old gun. Someone more
knowledgeable could tell you better, but I believe this style of gun was still
being made into the early 1800s anyway.  Might have been a more prevalent
style earlier on in the western fur trade than later on.

                                             Longshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 18 Sep 1998 11:17:58 -0400

When I was at the MFT in Nebraska, there were many of Paps and Grandpaps old
Kentucky rifles there.  Some had been cut a little shorter in the barrel,
but they were still Caintucks...  They dated them from about 1790 to 1830
era....

Addison Miller
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 9/17/98 Terry writes:
>
><< would a Virginia style rifle be period correct during the fur trade era?
if
> not then when would that style date to? >>
>
>   Sure Terry, I should think many a young man headed fer them shinnin'
>mountains with his Pap's or possibly his Grandpap's old gun. Someone more
>knowledgeable could tell you better, but I believe this style of gun was
still
>being made into the early 1800s anyway.  Might have been a more prevalent
>style earlier on in the western fur trade than later on.
>
>                                             Longshot
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 18 Sep 1998 09:23:40 -0600 (CST)

>In a message dated 9/17/98 Terry writes:
>
><< would a Virginia style rifle be period correct during the fur trade era? if
> not then when would that style date to? >>

What's a Virginia-style rifle?

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 18 Sep 1998 13:55:40 -0500

   >Birch bark burns like tissue even without charing.  I haven't tried
   >it but I bet it would really work good chared.  Birch bark even
   >burns like paper wet.
Shhhhhhh. Now your giving away an old family secret!


"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wayne Mumford <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: tipi's
Date: 18 Sep 1998 01:49:26 -0600

What's the price range for a good durable tipi? Is there anyone in NW
Montana that makes a good one?

Thanks,
Wayne
--
Frontier Filmworks
Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
Locations-Prints-Stock Images
The Lewis & Clark Trail
http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 18 Sep 1998 15:43:49 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-18 13:26:06 EDT, you write:

> When I was at the MFT in Nebraska, there were many of Paps and Grandpaps >
old Kentucky rifles there.

Chas. Hanson, in his book on the Hawken Rifle, documents the fact that the
most commonly used rifle during the Western Fur Trade was the "Lancaster"
rifle.  These, of course were made by PA. gunsmiths of the time.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 18 Sep 1998 18:45:00 -0700

HBC,

Here's one place to see what one builder is calling a "Virginia Rifle".
Bet it's what's being reffered to.

http://www.avsia.com/tvm/

Medicine Bear

> What's a Virginia-style rifle?
>
> *****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Cynthia R Pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tipts
Date: 18 Sep 1998 21:11:50 -0400

Wayne,  Blue Star Tipis  300 West Main  Missoula,Montana 59802
[phone]  Have had one of there tipis for over 15 years and used in
all kinds of weather . For several years set up at least once a month.
Getting pretty worn out now but when I buy again will be from them.
Rick Pierce



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charcloth..
Date: 18 Sep 1998 18:25:40 EDT

thanks NM, you said more than a mouthful.  while reading the posts on wasting
cotton, etc,  i was thinking that during my last rendevous, i only started a
fire with flint, steel and charcloth ONE TIME, and that was the very first
evening. thereafter, its a matter of proper 'banking', then the use of tinder
and a hollow reed, and voila', fire. if necessary, coals from the main pit are
moved to a brazier for small grill cooking; on and under a dutch oven for
baking; in the evening, a shovelful of hot coals in the lodge stove to take
the chill off, and for those freezing nights, throwing wood on those hot coals
and using the blow tube will get the stove ablaze in no time. there you go...
one piece of 1x1 charcloth for cooking and heat for 9 days.      PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi's
Date: 18 Sep 1998 17:53:53 -0400

Not in Montana, but Panther makes several sizes.... I have seen them ar
Ronnys before and they seem to be of good quality.  I have 3 Panter tents
(giant wedge, 10x10 wall, and a 12x14 wall), and never had a leak, or a
problem...  Their prices for a 12' - 24' in Sunforger, preshrunk... is $401
to $1036.  This includes Tipi, Cover, Liner, and door... Their phone number
is : 1-800-487-2684.  Tellthem you want to buy a tipi, and want a catalog...

Addison Miller
-----Original Message-----


>What's the price range for a good durable tipi? Is there anyone in NW
>Montana that makes a good one?
>
>Thanks,
>Wayne
>--
>Frontier Filmworks
>Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
>Locations-Prints-Stock Images
>The Lewis & Clark Trail
>http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 18 Sep 1998 21:15:56 -0500

Henry and Frank,
What's the joke ? There is a Virginia Rifle style isn't there? C'mon guys.
Or is this the product of a well known gunmaker?
Pendleton---------
> From: Frank <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
> Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 8:45 PM
>
> HBC,
>
> Here's one place to see what one builder is calling a "Virginia Rifle".
> Bet it's what's being reffered to.
>
> http://www.avsia.com/tvm/
>
> Medicine Bear
>
> > What's a Virginia-style rifle?
> >
> > *****************************************
> > Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> > [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> > 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> > FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> >                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> > ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wayne Mumford <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 18 Sep 1998 12:00:48 -0600

What was considered the normal caliber for the "Virginia rifle" during
it's day? What would have been a standard rifle for the Mississippi
frontier circa. 1785-1805? Just curious as to what one might expect the
members of the Lewis and Clark expedition to carry that were enlisted
specifically for the expedition  and not pulled from the military posts?

Wayne
--
Frontier Filmworks
Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
Locations-Prints-Stock Images
The Lewis & Clark Trail
http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 18 Sep 1998 23:03:15 -0700

Pendleton,

I don't know if Henry was kidding or not.  I'm really not familiar with too
many of the earlier guns although I must admit I'm looking at a "Southern
Rifle" by TVM for myself and wondering if it would fit in my persona.  Since
mountain men had to come from the east, I guess anything they brought with
them would be considered correct.  However, a rifle of small caliber wouldn't
due for long out west and would I imagine be replaced as soon as possible.
I'm going to due some reading before I go out and spend any beaver...them
plews is gettin' mighty dear!

MB

yellow rose/pendleton wrote:

> Henry and Frank,
> What's the joke ? There is a Virginia Rifle style isn't there? C'mon guys.
> Or is this the product of a well known gunmaker?
> Pendleton---------
> > From: Frank <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
> > Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 8:45 PM
> >
> > HBC,
> >
> > Here's one place to see what one builder is calling a "Virginia Rifle".
> > Bet it's what's being reffered to.
> >
> > http://www.avsia.com/tvm/
> >
> > Medicine Bear
> >
> > > What's a Virginia-style rifle?
> > >
> > > *****************************************
> > > Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> > > [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> > > 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> > > FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> > >                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> > > ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 19 Sep 1998 00:28:47 -0500


> Henry and Frank,
> What's the joke ? There is a Virginia Rifle style isn't there? C'mon
guys.
> Or is this the product of a well known gunmaker?
> Pendleton---------

YES THERE IS A VIRGINIA RIFLE!!
Ken YellowFeather

> > From: Frank <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
> > Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 8:45 PM
> >
> > HBC,
> >
> > Here's one place to see what one builder is calling a "Virginia Rifle".
> > Bet it's what's being reffered to.
> >
> > http://www.avsia.com/tvm/
> >
> > Medicine Bear
> >
> > > What's a Virginia-style rifle?
> > >
> > > *****************************************
> > > Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> > > [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> > > 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> > > FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> > >                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> > > ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerrys" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: fur trappers
Date: 19 Sep 1998 03:00:53 PDT

I am trying to find the defination of the word PINCHON. It was used in =
an article in the outdoor oklahoman some time ago. Taken form a book by =
Grant Foreman.  It said 97 fox & PINCHON.  Was it some kind of animal? =
Amy information on this subject would be GREATLY appreceited.  Thank you =
very much [e-mail].


--
IMail Server for Windows NT. Evaluation version.
Copyright (c) 1995-98 Ipswitch, Inc. http://www.ipswitch.com/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi's
Date: 19 Sep 1998 08:48:05 EDT

I concur, Panther is one of the best.  I have a wedge, tipi and one poler from
Panther.  Their canvas and craftmanship are top quality and they stand behind
their product.  Good folks to deal with.

Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Josh Swinehart <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Holcomb Valley
Date: 19 Sep 1998 08:41:56 -0700 (PDT)

Can anyone tell me what the dates for the Holcomb
Valley Rendezvous are?
TIA
-Totwolf





_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Holcomb Valley
Date: 19 Sep 1998 18:06:02 EDT

Holcomb Valley was 2 weeks ago. Plan on about the same time for next year.  PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 19 Sep 1998 18:04:09 EDT

Medicine Bear, I have been using a .54 calibre TVM 'poor-boy' for a number of
years, and can tell you that it has proven its worth many times over. It has
won me more prizes than I can remember, and is reliable, accurate, and
servicable. In ++curly Maple and brass hardware, it still makes my heart pound
with pride, especially when it is admired by anyone that sees / holds it.  In
fact, I loved it sooooo much so that I finally had to buy a matching Kentucky
pistol, and it, too, is a joy to behold. Jack Garner and his crew produce a
damn fine gun, and back up their products with great service. From what I have
been told, by those much more knowledgable than I, for the late 1700's and
beyond, it is correct for all areas of the country.  Those hard earned plews
are well spent with TVM.  I have no affiliation with them, just love their
products.    PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "K. Carpenter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Holcomb Valley
Date: 19 Sep 1998 11:38:52 -0500

Hi Josh,

I live in the Big Bear Valley and was just talking to some men who went
to the rendezvous.  It was the week prior to Labor day.  I believe the
last day was Labor Day, or the Sunday before it.  It is always held the
week leading up to Labor Day every year, for future reference.  The
mountain man club up here is holding one this coming weekend in Holcolmb
valley, if you would like to come.

Suzy Carpenter


Josh Swinehart wrote:

> Can anyone tell me what the dates for the Holcomb
> Valley Rendezvous are?
> TIA
> -Totwolf
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: MtMan-List: tipi's
Date: 19 Sep 1998 17:12:27 GMT

Over the last 12 years I've had a 14 ft Nomadics, an 18 ft Blue Star,
and an 18 ft Panther.  All were very good or better.  The Panther is
new, and was set up for the first time at this year's SouthWestern.
Handled the rain and cold just fine.
Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 19 Sep 1998 17:13:41 -0700


PJ,

Thanks for the info.  It's kinda scarry buying through the mail.  From what I can
see and read, that "Southern Rifle" may just be my next purchase.  I shor duz need
me a flinter!  .54 would truely shine!

MB


[e-mail] wrote:

> Medicine Bear, I have been using a .54 calibre TVM 'poor-boy' for a number of
> years, and can tell you that it has proven its worth many times over.

<snip>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi's -Reply
Date: 20 Sep 1998 00:03:42 -0700

There is one in Livingston, MT, I believe, unless they have
moved on.   Made by a man named Wendel Cooper.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 20 Sep 1998 01:14:57 -0400

guys:
a virginia style of rifle is not a poor boy---nor is it a tennisee style
of rifle---you need to get your books out and do some reading I know of
at least 2 different books on virginia type of rifles---I dont have then
available or i would quote you paragraph and verse as usual---Most of the
virginia guns that i have seen have been half stocks but know of several
full stocks---a lot of the virginia makers were trained by the smiths in
lancaster county and in york and bedford and some of the lines are
similar because of the training.

suggest you look at the "Pennsylvania Kentuckey rifle" by Henry Kauffman
library of congress # 59-14376, page 30 plate #27  it shows the counties
in the various years---and chapter 3 discusses the charectoristics of the
various makers by county---lancaster is on page 32, york county is page
57, bedford page 74.

there is no exact verginia style only those rifles that have been found
that came from virginia the styles are those of the people that the
makers apprenticed with--many have the lancaster lines along with the
york lines---all I can say is I have never seen nor know a maker that
made a roman nose type of gun from verginia so other than that what is a
verginia style of gun---basic contours and lines are lancaster with a
york or burks county thrown in ---I have seen a couple of them that has 2
or 3 characteristics of different counties and makers---contact Lee Good
@ davis museum and he has a good database of makers and you can track and
see who and where they apprenticed with and you will then see the style
and why the lines are such---

I dont plan on writing a book on this subject ---this should be some kind
of answer and i know there are people out there that are going to say YES
THERE IS A VIRGINIA STYLE OF RIFLE---to that I can say PICK YOUR OWN
POISON BUBBA---a lancaster rifle is about as virginia as you will get
other than a Harpers Ferry---and it's along the military line.  harpers
ferry is a major gun building area that hired apprentices from
pennsilvania---and brought them in to work.   EACH MAKER HAD HIS STYLE
AND PREFERENCES___

        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:13:41 -0700 Frank
<[e-mail]> writes:
>
>PJ,
>
>Thanks for the info.  It's kinda scarry buying through the mail.  From
>what I can
>see and read, that "Southern Rifle" may just be my next purchase.  I
>shor duz need
>me a flinter!  .54 would truely shine!
>
>MB
>
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Medicine Bear, I have been using a .54 calibre TVM 'poor-boy' for a
>number of
>> years, and can tell you that it has proven its worth many times
>over.
>
><snip>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint, Steel and Char Cloth
Date: 20 Sep 1998 00:31:54 -0400

been a lot of traffic on the flint and steel and the char thing again so
I thought i would post the paper the roy parker posted this last
february---he spent a lot of time and has his ducks in order and it
should answer a lot of the questions that have been running back and
forth about char and such---I would like to see roy post his finished
article because it may be a bit different than the one below---

ENJOY ALL___
      YMHOSANT
       =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:34:11 GMT [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
writes:
>Several people have asked for this information recently.  The
>following is a reprint of an article I posted in early October.  The
>finished article was lost in a hard disk crash around Thanksgiving,
>and I have not recreated it.  This is based on several years of
>experience, and an exchange on the Usenet group soc.history.living
>with several folks who also frequent this mailing list.  Scott, see if
>you can find your own words in this!
>
>I'm sorry, but the article is NOT complete.  If you've never made a
>flint and steel fire before, here's the gist of it.  The following is
>a DRAFT copy.  The actual article is only about half done.  I=92m
>retaining the copyright for this article, since I hope to have it
>published for profit and make millions of dollars when Steven
>Spielberg turns this into a major movie..   The final article had all
>the contributors listed.  I don't have them here, but pulled all the
>1996-1997 exchanges off of Deja News by doing a search for "fire
>starting".  When I rewrite this, full credit to all contributors will
>be given, especially for the info on charwood.
>
>
>The article needs a lot of wordsmithing.  I have not done much except
>spell check it, so it is obviously not ready to go yet. =20
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>----------------------------
>There=92s a lot of ways to start fires.  I=92m going to cover
>techniques
>I=92ve used off and on over the last 19 years.  I=92ll also cover a
>few
>techniques that I do NOT have a lot of experience with, but other
>folks do  I=92ll be straight with you when I report on something
>someone
>else recommends, but I=92ve only experimented with.  If I don=92t like
>=
>the
>method, I=92ll tell you, but understand it may be because I don=92t
>have
>the technique down due to enough experimentation.  Try it yourself.
>=20
>
>We=92re going to cover charcloth making, striker selection, flint
>selection, proper tinder and then tie all this together into proper
>flint and steel firestarting.  Char is usually made from cloth, but
>several people I corresponded with have used different natural
>materials.  This will be covered later on.  We=92ll also cover how to
>select and use a firebow, how to use your shootin=92 iron as a fire
>starter, char wood making and use, the burning lens (aka magnifying
>glass),  and we=92ll end it with what I diplomatically call
>=93shortcut=94
>(others may call it cheating) techniques some scum-sucking weasles use
>to get an edge on the competition, just so you have an idea of what to
>look out for.
>
>Charcloth Making
>
>=46orget all the stuff they told you in Boy Scouts about using dryer
>lint, picking up a rock and striking sparks, or rubbing two sticks
>together.  It=92s hogwash.  If you follow the recommendations in this
>article, make a batch or two of charcloth so you can see what is
>=93good=94 versus =93bad=94 select a flint as described, and have a
>good
>striker, you=92ll have flame in less than 15 seconds almost every time
>you try.  My personal best at fire starting is 8.1 seconds, and that
>took third place.=20
>
>Char is important because you need some material that will catch the
>sparks from your striker.  You can have a marvelous striker and flint,
>and chuck sparks into dryer lint until the cows come home.  And they
>come home about the time you have a spark catch in the dryer lint. =20
>
>The reason you char cloth is to essentially turn it into pure carbon,
>kinda like a super charcoal briquette.  You want a material that chars
>well, and has a lot of surface roughness to hold the spark from the
>striker until it can ignite the cloth.  Dryer lint, et. al, has a much
>higher combustion temperature to keep a coal glowing than does char
>cloth.  That=92s why it is so hard to start a fire this way.  Good
>char
>cloth will grab a spark as soon as it hits.
>
>Start with 100 percent cotton or linen fabric.  Make absolutely sure
>there are no synthetics.  These will melt and burn and leave a
>fire-proof coating over what remains of the fabric.  It also makes an
>awful mess of your char tin.  Wool has its own fire retardant.  Lore
>has it that you can=92t make char cloth out of wool, and I always
>believed it until I sat down to write these lines.  I=92ve always
>accepted that wool won=92t work, but you know, I have never tired it.
>I
>will have to take a shot at it next time I make up a batch of char.
>
>I=92ve heard that using cloth with patterns makes inferior char cloth.
>In my experience, it doesn=92t seem to matter.  New fabric such as
>left
>overs from shirt making need to be washed several times before you
>char them.  Most material like this contains a something called a
>sizing, which is fine clay impregnated in the cloth to make it
>smoother and easier to cut for patterns.  You can make char cloth from
>it, but the sizing leaves a bit more ash in the tin, and sometimes
>keeps a spark for catching as it seems to have to burn through the
>sizing first.  Pure canvas from the sewing store works pretty good
>after being well washed.  Flannel works well too if you make sure you
>do NOT get the flame-retardant kind.  All of these things will work.
>
>To make char cloth you can=92t put out without water, you have to use
>a
>special type of cloth.  Forget about blue jeans, cotton scraps,
>flannel,  canvas, etc. The best stuff I have ever found for char cloth
>is called Monk's Cloth (available at almost any sewing center, at
>least here in Texas).  It has 5-9 threads in the warp and the woof (?)
>(these are sewing terms I really don't understand, but it means the
>top layer weaves in and out of the bottom layer {going sideways of
>course} kinda like the plastic webbing you have on your aluminum
>framed lawn chairs, except this is all cotton, and is a lot thinner
>weave.  Monks cloth looks a lot like a coarser weave of the gauze
>you=92d find in a first aid kit.  For those of you who are wondering,
>I=92ve tried using gauze for char also.  It crumbles too easily
>compared
>to the Monk=92s cloth for my taste, but catches a spark immediately.
>If
>I ever get access to a scanner, I=92ll upload a picture to the web.
>
>How do you make char cloth? Easy.  Get some 100% linen or cotton, or
>if you=92ve been paying attention, get some Monk=92s cloth ( wash it
>once
>or twice first-a yard of this stuff will start hundreds of fires), cut
>it up into about inch and a half squares, no larger.  When you have a
>decent handful of pieces, put them in your char tin.  I fill my tin
>(one of the old, large shoe polish tins) so that the pile sticks out
>about three-eighths of an inch before putting the lid on.  This
>compresses the cloth a little, but I=92ve never noticed a problem .
>If
>you really stuff the tin full, you=92ll find a lot of the material in
>the center is not properly charred.  A little compression is ok, a lot
>is bad.
>
>A char tin is nothing more than a small metal can that has a tight
>fitting  metal lid.  A shoe polish tin or a pint paint can works
>great.  The pint paint can doubles as a container when making char
>wood.  We=92ll cover that later.  Clean out all residue from the
>previous inhabitant of the can before your start.  The real secret is
>to have a very tight fitting lid, and to close it down tight after you
>put in the cloth.  Next, take a small nail, about a one inch finishing
>nail and poke a hole in the lid. =20
>
>Now, find a small twig and sharpen it until it plugs the hole you just
>punched in the top as tight as can be.  Set the twig aside, as you
>won=92t need it for a while.  Now toss the can, lid up on the fire.
>I=92ve tried a bunch of different fires.  Some work and some don=92t
>and =
>I
>don=92t know why.  Campfires seem to make the best char cloth.  Set it
>on the edge of the coals, and plan 2-5 minutes a side for cooking.
>Good charcoal fires work about the same.  I=92ve tried this numerous
>times on my propane grill in the backyard, and on my coal forge, at
>both fast and slow heats, and never had any luck with making good
>char.  My best guess is that even on =91slow=92 heat, it is still too
>=
>much
>for propane and coal.
>
>Okay, you have your char tin heating on the fire.  More and more smoke
>is coming out the tiny hole you made (that=92s why you made it!).  The
>smoke smells really nasty.  Drop a burning twig across the hole to
>ignite the smoke if you or your neighbors have a sensitive nose.  When
>the smoke trail is almost gone, flip the can over in the fire, wait
>1-2 minutes, and flip it back over.  If there is no more smoke pull
>the can out of the fire, and IMMEDIATELY stick the twig into the hole
>on the top.  The twig is to prevent pulling air back into the can as
>it cools down. =20
>
>This is why it is nice to make char toward nightfall.  If the can
>starts glowing red, it tells you that you do NOT have an airtight
>seal, and that air is being sucked back into the char tin, setting the
>char on fire....that=92s why the can is a dull red in color...it=92s
>hot.
>If this happens, toss the charcloth out and start over.  I once needed
>to make some char at rendezvous and had stepped on the lid, so
>couldn=92t get a good seal.  Rather than go borrow another tin, I
>tried
>making up a thick mud of clay, smeared that around the rim, put on the
>lid, added a bit more clay to the seam and tossed it in the fire.  It
>worked like a charm.
>
>If the char is brown, or even has white spots, it was not on the fire
>long enough.  Put it back in the can and cook it some more.  You
>should see more smoke coming out the hole as you finish charring the
>cloth.  If the char is brittle, it has been overcooked or still had
>the sizing left in the cloth.  Leftover sizing often also leaves a
>shiny residue in the can.  If it is brittle, throw it away and start
>over.  Good char should be bend double without any cracking or crazing
>while being uniformly black in color.  You should be able to bend it
>in half with no problems.  If it can=92t do that, it is overcooked and
>makes inferior charcloth.  Yep, it will still start fires, just not
>nearly as quickly.  Assuming none of these bad things happened,
>congratulations!  You=92ve made your first char cloth!  Now what?
>
>Selecting a Flint
>
>A lot of people think this is a no-brainer, but it is important.
>There are two things you want in a flint.  The first is sharpness, and
>the second is hardness.  A truly sharp flint is like a piece of broken
>glass.  It is one molecule thick on the edge.  No steel knife of any
>type can even begin to approach that sort of sharpness.  Learn how to
>knap a flint for maximum sharpness.  It makes a big difference in how
>strong a string of sparks you can toss from the steel.  Some of the
>best flints I=92ve ever had have been flakes and spalls left around
>after someone demonstrated arrowhead making.  They=92re small and
>exceedingly sharp.
>
>Rule of thumb is that the darker the piece of flint, the harder it is.
>And the harder the piece of flint, the lower it dulls.  But I=92ve
>seen
>some awfully light colored flints throw some very impressive sparks.
>So I give sharpness the nod over the hardness of the flint.
>
>If you can find it, get a chunk of red jasper.  Some parts of the
>country it is easy to come by, and others quite difficult.  Here in
>Houston, where we=92re 100 miles or more from the nearest rock at
>ground
>level, I cruise gravel parking lots.  Much of the gravel we get is
>flint, and there always seems to be a piece or two of red jasper.  Red
>jasper is 2-3 times as hard as flint, and if sharp will really throw
>some truly awesome sparks that can still sizzle when they hit the
>ground.=20
>
>Selecting a Striker
>
>There are two types of strikers.  Good ones and bad ones.  Initially,
>it can be hard to tell the difference.  The best place to get a GOOD
>striker is at rendezvous from the smith who made it.  If you buy it
>from someone other than the blacksmith who made it, test it out for
>10-15 minutes.  Rule of thumb is that you should be able to hold the
>striker at waist level, strike it with the flint, and have sparks
>burning at the top of your moccasins.  When you find a striker that
>does this, keep striking for about 15 minutes.  Some of the strikers
>available have only a case hardening.  Those sparks you see are little
>bits of burning metal cut off by the flint (see why we want a sharp
>flint?) and ignited by the friction of the flint hitting the striker..
>
>
>If you only have a case hardness on the steel the metal is hard for
>only 2-3 thousands of an inch, and after 10 or so minutes of striking,
>suddenly quit giving off a spark.  You=92ve used up the hardness, and
>the striker is worthless.  You=92ll pay a few bucks more getting a
>striker from the original smith, but you=92ll also get a lifetime
>guarantee, most likely.
>
>Make sure the striking face is smooth.  If it is made from a file,
>make sure that there are no file marks left on the face of the
>striker, or near the edges where a flint can hit.  Catching one of
>these defects can snap the striker in half, as it forces it to break
>along a fault line.
>
>Tinder
>
>Tinder is made out of dead plants, the finer the better.  There=92s a
>lot of good material out there.  Dead grasses rolled through the hands
>until they become fibers, tow used in taxidermy (the leftovers from
>the flax plant when the linen is removed), hay, pine needles, cedar
>bark ground up finely by hand and allowed to dry.  You want to keep it
>fine, but not turn it into a powder.  Tinder is the stuff that will
>take the glowing coal from you char cloth and suddenly burst into
>flame for building your fire.  Get the deadest, driest stuff you can
>find, dry it some more, and then keep it dry!
>
>Making a Fire by Flint and Steel
>
>Okay, you now have good charcloth, a good flint, a good steel and some
>tinder.  How do we go about turning this into a conflagration?  No
>problem.  First of all, you=92re going to split up some kindling.
>Then
>you=92re going to follow the three (3) steps below EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.
>Once you get these three steps down pay, you can start experimenting
>to improve your speed.
>
>The tender you have will burn for only a few seconds, so you have to
>get some larger stuff burning during that time.  Start by getting some
>dry wood split into pieces about the size of match sticks, and
>gradually progressing until you are adding pieces about a half to inch
>in diameter.  At that point there is no way the fire is going out
>unless the heavens open up.  We=92re not going to get into types of
>fires.  I like a tipi style, other like some of the many others.  Use
>what works for you.
>
>1.  Strike the spark.
>    If you=92re right-handed, hold the steel in your left hand.
>Hold the flint/jasper level in your right with 2-3 pieces of char on
>top of the rock.  The sharp edge of the flint must point to yor
>right.Use your thumb to keep the char from slipping off and position
>it so that the char is even with the striking edge of the flint.  Use
>the steel to whack the flint in a rather gentle motion.  You=92re
>trying
>to shave off tiny pieces of burning metal with the flint, not bash
>down a building.  If you have to hit it hard to get a spark, you=92ve
>got either a lousy striker or a dull flint.  Band-Aids may be called
>for until you get a feel for the proper technique. Keep it up until
>you get a spark to catch on the char.  If you have good equipment and
>Monk=92s cloth, only one or two whacks will be needed.  You can see a
>small orange glow in the char where the spark has lodged.  This glow
>may only be obvious in the dark unless you shade the cloth.  If you
>can=92t see it and burn your thumb, it=92s lit..
>
>2.  Blow it into flame
>    Blow on it gently to sprea  This can cause a massive blowing
>fit, d the fire and at the same time grab a handful of the tinder
>you=92ve already made up into a bird=92s nest about the size of a
>baseball.  Tuck the glowing char down into the center of the
>birdsnest, pinch the birdsnest closed using your thumb and forefinger
>to compress it around the char cloth, raise it above your head
>slightly with your back to the wind, and gently blow on it.  If your
>lungs empty, and no flames are in sight, turn your head to 90 degrees,
>grab a breath of fresh air, and resume blowing.  You keep the nest
>above your head, plus turn it 90 degrees to keep from sucking the
>unlit smoke back in your lungs, which is detrimental to your Mt. Man
>image.
>
>3.  Starting the Fire
>    When the flames suddenly erupt, drop the birdsnest into your
>firepit, add the kindling, and gently nurse the blaze into a full
>conflagration by adding slightly larger pieces of wood to the fire.
>Make up a pot of coffee, and invite the booshway over.  He may not be
>impressed with your first-ever flint and steel fire, but he always
>appreciates a pot of coffee.
>
>
>=46irebows
>
>I=92ll be the first to admit this is not one of my areas of great
>expertise.  But I have used a couple of systems, and have started a
>hundred or so fires this way, mainly for the benefit of the public.
>
>Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous,
>[e-mail]
>=46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
>Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS".
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 20 Sep 1998 13:44:20 -0500

Hawk,
  Were not most Virginia rifles steel mounted because of the lack of brass
available ? Or  is that a misconception due to the fine work of Herschal
House since he tends to build a lot of steel mounted Virginia rifles? I
agree with everthing you have said about poor boys and Tennesee rifles not
neccessarily being Virginia rifles. Although some Virginia guns were poor
boys, and some Tennessee guns were for sure not poor boys. And yes the
gunmakers of Virginia did migrate from the Pennsylvania area and carry with
them the Lancaster influence. Pendleton--------
> From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
> Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 12:14 AM
>
> guys:
> a virginia style of rifle is not a poor boy---nor is it a tennisee style
> of rifle---you need to get your books out and do some reading I know of
> at least 2 different books on virginia type of rifles---I dont have then
> available or i would quote you paragraph and verse as usual---Most of the
> virginia guns that i have seen have been half stocks but know of several
> full stocks---a lot of the virginia makers were trained by the smiths in
> lancaster county and in york and bedford and some of the lines are
> similar because of the training.
>
> suggest you look at the "Pennsylvania Kentuckey rifle" by Henry Kauffman
> library of congress # 59-14376, page 30 plate #27  it shows the counties
> in the various years---and chapter 3 discusses the charectoristics of the
> various makers by county---lancaster is on page 32, york county is page
> 57, bedford page 74.
>
> there is no exact verginia style only those rifles that have been found
> that came from virginia the styles are those of the people that the
> makers apprenticed with--many have the lancaster lines along with the
> york lines---all I can say is I have never seen nor know a maker that
> made a roman nose type of gun from verginia so other than that what is a
> verginia style of gun---basic contours and lines are lancaster with a
> york or burks county thrown in ---I have seen a couple of them that has 2
> or 3 characteristics of different counties and makers---contact Lee Good
> @ davis museum and he has a good database of makers and you can track and
> see who and where they apprenticed with and you will then see the style
> and why the lines are such---
>
> I dont plan on writing a book on this subject ---this should be some kind
> of answer and i know there are people out there that are going to say YES
> THERE IS A VIRGINIA STYLE OF RIFLE---to that I can say PICK YOUR OWN
> POISON BUBBA---a lancaster rifle is about as virginia as you will get
> other than a Harpers Ferry---and it's along the military line.  harpers
> ferry is a major gun building area that hired apprentices from
> pennsilvania---and brought them in to work.   EACH MAKER HAD HIS STYLE
> AND PREFERENCES___
>
>         =+=
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:13:41 -0700 Frank
> <[e-mail]> writes:
> >
> >PJ,
> >
> >Thanks for the info.  It's kinda scarry buying through the mail.  From
> >what I can
> >see and read, that "Southern Rifle" may just be my next purchase.  I
> >shor duz need
> >me a flinter!  .54 would truely shine!
> >
> >MB
> >
> >
> >[e-mail] wrote:
> >
> >> Medicine Bear, I have been using a .54 calibre TVM 'poor-boy' for a
> >number of
> >> years, and can tell you that it has proven its worth many times
> >over.
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fur trappers
Date: 20 Sep 1998 19:34:29 -0500

Consult the following:
www.state.ok.us/~odwc
That is the web site for the Oklahoma Dept of Wildlife Conservation.  Maybe
they can help.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


I am trying to find the defination of the word PINCHON. It was used in an
article in the outdoor oklahoman some time ago. Taken form a book by Grant
Foreman.  It said 97 fox & PINCHON.  Was it some kind of animal? Amy
information on this subject would be GREATLY appreceited.  Thank you very
much [e-mail].


--
IMail Server for Windows NT. Evaluation version.
Copyright (c) 1995-98 Ipswitch, Inc. http://www.ipswitch.com/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 20 Sep 1998 20:15:39 -0400

Frank wrote:
>
> PJ,
>
> Thanks for the info.  It's kinda scarry buying through the mail.  From what I can
> see and read, that "Southern Rifle" may just be my next purchase.  I shor duz need
> me a flinter!  .54 would truely shine!

I have a So. Mtn. Rifle (flint) from Deer Creek which is VERY well
made...semi-custom hand-made.  However, the biggest cal. is .50.  I
wouldn't let this put you off however, as I shoot "rifle powder" in
mine, which is a mix of 50/50 ffg and fffg graded powder (Elephant works
VERY well), 90gr. at shoots and 100gr. hunting.  Velocity and energy is
DEFINITELY "there."

Fred



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 'poor boy' rifles
Date: 20 Sep 1998 19:55:51 EDT

WOW, i see i should have changed the heading BEFORE i wrote to medicine bear.
i wasn't trying to convey that TVC's 'poor-boy' is a virginia rifle, 'cuz its
not, only that its a damn fine piece of work, and, southern style 'poor-boys'
were carried and traded and handed-down throughout this whole country by the
late 1700's.  also, there were virginia 'poor boys', and tennessee or southern
rifles that weren't.  sorry if i misled or confused anybody.  PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi's
Date: 20 Sep 1998 22:48:50 EDT

Moonshine AKA Steve Johnson out of Kimberling City, MO 417-739-4709 does
rendezvous up in that area and make tents and tipi s.  I stay in one of his
canvas homes myself



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 20 Sep 1998 23:57:32 -0400

You were very correct in the reason for the steel mounting--Herschel
house makes a fine copy of a original verginia gun but if you look at it
it is similar to a fordney which the man that made herschels gun that he
usto copy had apprenticed under---  also about the time riflemaling got
realley going in virginia,  harpers ferry was going strong and they were
making military weapons and most of them were steel mounted and it
carried over into the civilian guns that were being produced--  Sam and
Jake Hawkins worked at Harpers Ferry for a few years and then moved to st
louis and if you look at the basic lines of a hawkins and a 1803 harpers
ferry you will see a lot of sembilance in contours--william Christifer
hawkins apprenticed in lancaster county and also worked at harpers ferry
and it is sometimes said he made verginia type rifles and almost all of
those were either steel or silver mounted--not much brass---
page 94 of "the Kentuckey rifle" "a true american heritage" (Library of
congress number 67-18479) shows a fine full stock rifle with lancaster
lines similar to a fordney also page 98 shows a slight romen nose similar
to york county guns  both guns are unsigned which indicates that the
makers were not yet master builders but both are of high quality---page 8
shows a verginia gun with the marks J.B.  also a lot of the virginia guns
look a lot like Danial Borders  from bedford county---  a lot of the
verginia guns are very similar to a borders style of  gun.  a lot of the
makers in virginia also migrated from marilyn and there is some of the
marilyn influence you might check out page 39 of the same book of a south
western verginia gun marked A.H. and is steel mounted--it should be noted
that Christipher Hawkens came from Hagerstown Marilyn to virginia with
his sons Jake and Sam hawkens---There was a S. Lauck from Winchester Va
and his style is  very similar to the christipher hawkens style and the
lancaster style(see page 51 of the same book)---  there was a J. Montague
whose style and type is a combination of a marilyn gun and a dauphine
county gun see page 59 of the same book--It is thought that he
apprenticed with Leonard reedy or he worked with him for a short period
of time---M. Sheets is from Shepardstown Virginia  and his contour and
basic lines  is similar to a lancaster rifle with carving similar to
marilyn guns---most of his guns had relief carving see page 77 same
reference--

the book that i have refenced has quite good detail and only shows guns
of the highest quality with a lot of ornimantation and such -- i can
continue and give you some makers that primarily used steel mountings and
were from virginia but the above show the basic lines and contours that
is called a virginia style of rifle only the average gun was steel
mounted---many without patch boxes---some even with wooden patchbox.  I
remember one of those but would have to dig to give you a paragraph and
verse---

I have seen a few of what you call poor boys but the lines and contours
are mostly in line with the lancaster style without patchbox, or
buttplate and with a greese hole in the butt stock --- most of these had
no cheek piece on either side and was only a cheep gun and not along the
lines of the tenn. pore boy which you speek.  the problem is that this
type of gun when wore out was turned into something else in other words
the steel was recycled---into chizzles and other tools---I have a
verginia poor boy and for years argued that it was a tenn.  made gun and
when comparing it to a tenn. the trigger guard is quite different and
more like a steel cast trigger guard similar to a lancaster gun---that
was the give-away for it I was told by several "QUOTE" experts in
verginia guns---one was hershal  I cornered him at friendship one year
and asked him about the gun---he said it was a virginia poor boy.

I hope I have not put a lot of confusion in the answer---

       YMHOSANT
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:44:20 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hawk,
>  Were not most Virginia rifles steel mounted because of the lack of
>brass
>available ? Or  is that a misconception due to the fine work of
>Herschal
>House since he tends to build a lot of steel mounted Virginia rifles?
>I
>agree with everthing you have said about poor boys and Tennesee rifles
>not
>neccessarily being Virginia rifles. Although some Virginia guns were
>poor
>boys, and some Tennessee guns were for sure not poor boys. And yes the
>gunmakers of Virginia did migrate from the Pennsylvania area and carry
>with
>them the Lancaster influence. Pendleton--------
>> From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
>> Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 12:14 AM
>>
>> guys:
>> a virginia style of rifle is not a poor boy---nor is it a tennisee
>style
>> of rifle---you need to get your books out and do some reading I know
>of
>> at least 2 different books on virginia type of rifles---I dont have
>then
>> available or i would quote you paragraph and verse as usual---Most
>of the
>> virginia guns that i have seen have been half stocks but know of
>several
>> full stocks---a lot of the virginia makers were trained by the
>smiths in
>> lancaster county and in york and bedford and some of the lines are
>> similar because of the training.
>>
>> suggest you look at the "Pennsylvania Kentuckey rifle" by Henry
>Kauffman
>> library of congress # 59-14376, page 30 plate #27  it shows the
>counties
>> in the various years---and chapter 3 discusses the charectoristics
>of the
>> various makers by county---lancaster is on page 32, york county is
>page
>> 57, bedford page 74.
>>
>> there is no exact verginia style only those rifles that have been
>found
>> that came from virginia the styles are those of the people that the
>> makers apprenticed with--many have the lancaster lines along with
>the
>> york lines---all I can say is I have never seen nor know a maker
>that
>> made a roman nose type of gun from verginia so other than that what
>is a
>> verginia style of gun---basic contours and lines are lancaster with
>a
>> york or burks county thrown in ---I have seen a couple of them that
>has 2
>> or 3 characteristics of different counties and makers---contact Lee
>Good
>> @ davis museum and he has a good database of makers and you can
>track and
>> see who and where they apprenticed with and you will then see the
>style
>> and why the lines are such---
>>
>> I dont plan on writing a book on this subject ---this should be some
>kind
>> of answer and i know there are people out there that are going to
>say YES
>> THERE IS A VIRGINIA STYLE OF RIFLE---to that I can say PICK YOUR OWN
>> POISON BUBBA---a lancaster rifle is about as virginia as you will
>get
>> other than a Harpers Ferry---and it's along the military line.
>harpers
>> ferry is a major gun building area that hired apprentices from
>> pennsilvania---and brought them in to work.   EACH MAKER HAD HIS
>STYLE
>> AND PREFERENCES___
>>
>>         =+=
>>       "Hawk"
>> Michael Pierce
>> 854 Glenfield Dr.
>> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>>
>> On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:13:41 -0700 Frank
>> <[e-mail]> writes:
>> >
>> >PJ,
>> >
>> >Thanks for the info.  It's kinda scarry buying through the mail.
>From
>> >what I can
>> >see and read, that "Southern Rifle" may just be my next purchase.
>I
>> >shor duz need
>> >me a flinter!  .54 would truely shine!
>> >
>> >MB
>> >
>> >
>> >[e-mail] wrote:
>> >
>> >> Medicine Bear, I have been using a .54 calibre TVM 'poor-boy' for
>a
>> >number of
>> >> years, and can tell you that it has proven its worth many times
>> >over.
>> >
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 'poor boy' rifles
Date: 21 Sep 1998 00:29:46 -0400

no problem PJ I get confused all the time everyone says it's my age and
such----when the mind gows i dont know what i will do---and my better
half says its starting---
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:55:51 EDT [e-mail] writes:
>WOW, i see i should have changed the heading BEFORE i wrote to
>medicine bear.
>i wasn't trying to convey that TVC's 'poor-boy' is a virginia rifle,
>'cuz its
>not, only that its a damn fine piece of work, and, southern style
>'poor-boys'
>were carried and traded and handed-down throughout this whole country
>by the
>late 1700's.  also, there were virginia 'poor boys', and tennessee or
>southern
>rifles that weren't.  sorry if i misled or confused anybody.  PJ
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 21 Sep 1998 00:26:31 -0400

why do you mix the powders fred---how the hell can you be consistant---
mixing FF and FFF g is a new one on me----I shoot 3 f in everything I own
except my shotguns and have done darn well at a many a shoot for many
years---I never have shot any of the elephant powder---I shoot 85 gr of
FFFg in my 54 and have shot a many a  cleans with x's.  Gun has a Bill
Large Barrel in it and that is what bill suggested---I have tried loads
from 50 gr to 150 gr and the 70 to 95 gr has the smallest group with the
85gr having the most consistant in all kinds of weather---and
temperature---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:15:39 -0400 "Fred A. Miller"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Frank wrote:
>>
>> PJ,
>>
>> Thanks for the info.  It's kinda scarry buying through the mail.
>From what I can
>> see and read, that "Southern Rifle" may just be my next purchase.  I
>shor duz need
>> me a flinter!  .54 would truely shine!
>
>I have a So. Mtn. Rifle (flint) from Deer Creek which is VERY well
>made...semi-custom hand-made.  However, the biggest cal. is .50.  I
>wouldn't let this put you off however, as I shoot "rifle powder" in
>mine, which is a mix of 50/50 ffg and fffg graded powder (Elephant
>works
>VERY well), 90gr. at shoots and 100gr. hunting.  Velocity and energy
>is
>DEFINITELY "there."
>
>Fred
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Powders...
Date: 21 Sep 1998 01:09:42 -0400

Michael Pierce wrote:
>
> why do you mix the powders fred---how the hell can you be consistant---
> mixing FF and FFF g is a new one on me----I shoot 3 f in everything I own

You can use scales to weight it or by volume....NO problem.

> except my shotguns and have done darn well at a many a shoot for many
> years---I never have shot any of the elephant powder---I shoot 85 gr of
> FFFg in my 54 and have shot a many a  cleans with x's.  Gun has a Bill
> Large Barrel in it and that is what bill suggested---I have tried loads
> from 50 gr to 150 gr and the 70 to 95 gr has the smallest group with the
> 85gr having the most consistant in all kinds of weather---and
> temperature---

Heavy loads of fffg WILL sooner or later erode the breech, with all due
respect to Bill Large.

Fred



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
Date: 21 Sep 1998 09:12:11 -0600 (CST)

>Pendleton,
>
>I don't know if Henry was kidding or not.

Friends,
I wasn't kidding.  I know the Pennsylvania (Kentucky) rifle and the
Tennessee, but I never heard of anything called a Virginia rifle.  I assume
it's some vartiant of the traditional long rifle, but what kind of
variation, I don't know.  I may know it by a different name, who knows.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: fire making, guns in west
Date: 21 Sep 1998 09:59:36 +0100

I was gone for a few days and returned to find a
lot of messages about firemaking and char cloth.
How the old timers did it has also been an issue
of mine for some time.  Despite extensive reading
in period journals there is little or no
information usually given on fire starting except
to not that a fire was started or "struck" or that
they had trouble starting a fire because of wet
conditions.  Without going back and looking at all
my notes, the only reference I can recall to
techniques are (all in west, 1800-40):
--one reference to inability to make fire because
they had no powder
--one reference to watching an Indian make fire
using a twirling stick and wood hearth
Sorry I don't have the cites with me.
Also consider some random associated points:
Many of the invoices of individual's purchases in
the Mountains contain relatively small quantities
(a yard or two) of cotton fabric.
You can get past the point of needing char by
putting dry tender down your bore on top of a
small charge of powder and shooting it out.  It
works.
I've tried striking sparks onto tender dusted with
powder (based on above reference) without any good
results.  Usually noting happens as the powder
settles down into the tender.
Fire steels were a unbiquitous item of commerce.
Usually in the 1820-30 period called "bright oval"
ALSO, anyone with questions on "what guns went
west?" should start with Hanson's "The Hawken
Rifle and its Place in History."  It will probably
answer most of them, and I suspect that maybe some
folks are overlooking it because of the title,
assuming it to be only about Hawkens.  What it
really does is put everything into an overall
perspective.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Holler, Edward" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bow and Drill
Date: 19 Aug 1998 16:02:56 -0400

I'm trying to find aplace where I can buy 10 sets of Bow and Drill fire
making devices.  I want to use this for a training session for teachers
at the school in which I'm the principal.  Can you tel me where to buy
them?

Thanks,

Dr. Ed Holler



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Drill
Date: 21 Sep 1998 13:15:59 -0700 (PDT)

Check you local Boy Scout Of America Council Office. At one time, they
offered a "Fire by friction set" which was made of Yucca. Have not
been there in years, but worth a try.




---"Holler, Edward" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to find aplace where I can buy 10 sets of Bow and Drill
fire
> making devices.  I want to use this for a training session for
teachers
> at the school in which I'm the principal.  Can you tel me where to buy
> them?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dr. Ed Holler
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Drill
Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:52:12 EDT

You used to be able to buy them through the Boy Scouts



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Drill
Date: 21 Sep 1998 19:25:05 -0400

Ed contact me off-line and we can discuss the fire bows--I thank you can
make them yourself quite easily---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Check you local Boy Scout Of America Council Office. At one time, they
>offered a "Fire by friction set" which was made of Yucca. Have not
>been there in years, but worth a try.
>
>
>
>
>---"Holler, Edward" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to find aplace where I can buy 10 sets of Bow and Drill
>fire
>> making devices.  I want to use this for a training session for
>teachers
>> at the school in which I'm the principal.  Can you tel me where to
>buy
>> them?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dr. Ed Holler
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fire making, guns in west
Date: 21 Sep 1998 19:01:35 -0500

Allen
I agree with your comment about Charles Hanson's book.  I bought my copy
this summer in Pinedale, Wyoming en route to Pierre's Hole.  It is a
fascinating and enlightening read.  It is very inexpensive (mine cost $8.00
American) and anyone even semi-serious about the early 19th century fur
trade would be well served to have a copy.
See you next July.
YF&B
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>I was gone for a few days and returned to find a
>lot of messages about firemaking and char cloth.
>How the old timers did it has also been an issue
>of mine for some time.  Despite extensive reading
>in period journals there is little or no
>information usually given on fire starting except
>to not that a fire was started or "struck" or that
>they had trouble starting a fire because of wet
>conditions.  Without going back and looking at all
>my notes, the only reference I can recall to
>techniques are (all in west, 1800-40):
>--one reference to inability to make fire because
>they had no powder
>--one reference to watching an Indian make fire
>using a twirling stick and wood hearth
>Sorry I don't have the cites with me.
>Also consider some random associated points:
>Many of the invoices of individual's purchases in
>the Mountains contain relatively small quantities
>(a yard or two) of cotton fabric.
>You can get past the point of needing char by
>putting dry tender down your bore on top of a
>small charge of powder and shooting it out.  It
>works.
>I've tried striking sparks onto tender dusted with
>powder (based on above reference) without any good
>results.  Usually noting happens as the powder
>settles down into the tender.
>Fire steels were a unbiquitous item of commerce.
>Usually in the 1820-30 period called "bright oval"
>ALSO, anyone with questions on "what guns went
>west?" should start with Hanson's "The Hawken
>Rifle and its Place in History."  It will probably
>answer most of them, and I suspect that maybe some
>folks are overlooking it because of the title,
>assuming it to be only about Hawkens.  What it
>really does is put everything into an overall
>perspective.
>Allen Chronister
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Drill
Date: 21 Sep 1998 20:55:03 EDT

 <A HREF="http://www.trackofthewolf.com/">Track of the Wolf, Inc.</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fire making, guns in west
Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:57:24 -0700

Allen,

One other method of lighting your char is to put a piece in your flash
pan (assuming you have a flinter) and firing you gun to land a spark on
the char.  Naturally you would make sure your gun was not loaded and
pointed in a safe direction.  Anyway, it's another method I remember
reading about.

Medicine Bear




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Breechplug treatment, was...Re: MtMan-List: Powders...
Date: 22 Sep 1998 01:26:51 GMT

I try to trim followups, but this has too much info.  I recently read
(Muzzleloader or Backwoodsman - neither handy - or did I read it here
on the list?) about a fellow who found an old barrel used for a fence
post (muzzle up) for undoubtedly several hundred years.  Anyway, he
decided to unbreach it, applied a little heat, and low and behold it
unscrewed like nothin'.  The threads had been coated with some sort of
tar, and the metal underneath was like new.

Anybody else have any experience like this with originals or repo's?


On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:09:42 -0400, you wrote:

>Michael Pierce wrote:
>>=20
>> why do you mix the powders fred---how the hell can you be =
consistant---
>> mixing FF and FFF g is a new one on me----I shoot 3 f in everything I =
own
>
>You can use scales to weight it or by volume....NO problem.
>
>> except my shotguns and have done darn well at a many a shoot for many
>> years---I never have shot any of the elephant powder---I shoot 85 gr =
of
>> FFFg in my 54 and have shot a many a  cleans with x's.  Gun has a Bill
>> Large Barrel in it and that is what bill suggested---I have tried =
loads
>> from 50 gr to 150 gr and the 70 to 95 gr has the smallest group with =
the
>> 85gr having the most consistant in all kinds of weather---and
>> temperature---
>
>Heavy loads of fffg WILL sooner or later erode the breech, with all due
>respect to Bill Large.
>
>Fred
>

Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including =
"BS".
1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Drill
Date: 21 Sep 1998 23:45:08 EDT

The Boy Scouts of America used to have a simple yet inexpensive Bow and Drill
set.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Drill
Date: 21 Sep 1998 23:50:43 -0400

will have to check this out---havent seen it in their catalog but mine is
old---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:55:03 EDT [e-mail] writes:
> <A HREF="http://www.trackofthewolf.com/">Track of the Wolf, Inc.</A>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powders...
Date: 21 Sep 1998 23:48:18 -0400

Mr parker I have seen several original rifles just as you
described---what it is is this--if a breech plug is properly installed
the head of the breach comes into contact with the barrel and makes a
seal in other words the champher of  drilling the barrel before tapping
and the champher of the plug makes contact-- this when the plug is
tourqued good and tight and with greese applied to the threads forms a
air tight seal thru the threads and no air--no rust--then unless you have
galvonic corrosion the threads will last for ever and when you break the
seal at the rear and the front you will have on the threads the grease
which turns to a black film---a lot of the oldtimers used black oil to
tap with and then applied this same mixture to the threads before they
torqued the breach---when I fit a breach I usually do it the same as the
old timers and put blue dikum on the head of the breach plug and when I
get it to make full contact with the barrel it is fitted properly I also
try to do the same at the back part of the plug the perfect way is to
have both surfaces to make contact at the same time---takes a while to
file and fit but as you noted it has benifits of making a total seal of
the breach plug and you dont have much chance of blowby which will
eventually erode and ruin the threads---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:26:51 GMT [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
writes:
>I try to trim followups, but this has too much info.  I recently read
>(Muzzleloader or Backwoodsman - neither handy - or did I read it here
>on the list?) about a fellow who found an old barrel used for a fence
>post (muzzle up) for undoubtedly several hundred years.  Anyway, he
>decided to unbreach it, applied a little heat, and low and behold it
>unscrewed like nothin'.  The threads had been coated with some sort of
>tar, and the metal underneath was like new.
>
>Anybody else have any experience like this with originals or repo's?
>
>
>On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:09:42 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Michael Pierce wrote:
>>>=20
>>> why do you mix the powders fred---how the hell can you be =
>consistant---
>>> mixing FF and FFF g is a new one on me----I shoot 3 f in everything
>I =
>own
>>
>>You can use scales to weight it or by volume....NO problem.
>>
>>> except my shotguns and have done darn well at a many a shoot for
>many
>>> years---I never have shot any of the elephant powder---I shoot 85
>gr =
>of
>>> FFFg in my 54 and have shot a many a  cleans with x's.  Gun has a
>Bill
>>> Large Barrel in it and that is what bill suggested---I have tried =
>loads
>>> from 50 gr to 150 gr and the 70 to 95 gr has the smallest group
>with =
>the
>>> 85gr having the most consistant in all kinds of weather---and
>>> temperature---
>>
>>Heavy loads of fffg WILL sooner or later erode the breech, with all
>due
>>respect to Bill Large.
>>
>>Fred
>>
>
>Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including
>=
>"BS".
>1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fire making, guns in west
Date: 22 Sep 1998 07:02:17 -0000

In his (dictated to his daughter) book "Evolution of a State"
http://www.erols.com/hardeman/lonestar/olbooks/smithwic/otd.htm
Noah Smithwick told of making firestarting cloth by rubbing gunpowder into
cloth.
Sorry I couldn't find the exact place, but I distinctly remember this.
This reference is for the not for the western mountaineers, but it is for
our period.

This method might cause no small amount of controversy if used in a
rendezvous firestarting contest.
Warning - This method can produce various dramatic results, including a very
fast fire in your beard!

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

Allen Chronister <[e-mail]> wrote


>.  .  . Despite extensive reading
>in period journals there is little or no
>information usually given on fire starting except
>to not that a fire was started or "struck" or that
>they had trouble starting a fire because of wet
>conditions.  Without going back and looking at all
>my notes, the only reference I can recall to
>techniques are (all in west, 1800-40):
>--one reference to inability to make fire because
>they had no powder
>--one reference to watching an Indian make fire
>using a twirling stick and wood hearth
>Sorry I don't have the cites with me. . . .





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: Breechplug treatment, was...Re: MtMan-List: Powders...
Date: 22 Sep 1998 08:41:38 -0600 (CST)

>...a fellow who found an old barrel used for a fence
>post (muzzle up) for undoubtedly several hundred years.  Anyway, he
>decided to unbreach it, applied a little heat, and low and behold it
>unscrewed like nothin'.  The threads had been coated with some sort of
>tar, and the metal underneath was like new.
>
>Anybody else have any experience like this with originals or repo's?

I did something similar with the barrel of a CVA mountain rifle.  I applied
super-hot water down the bore and worked the breechplug out with a monkey
wrench.  It can be done.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powders...
Date: 22 Sep 1998 10:08:29 -0400

H.B.
I thank he is refering to the threads being totaly intact and covered
with a black film--as i stated in my correspondance it's probably the fit
of the breach along with the use of greese or black oil used in threading
and assembly.  most good breach plugs and barrel threads were cut on a
lathe for both internal and external threads and it took a good machinest
to cut them---Yes there was taps and dies but those were quite crude and
hand made and not as precision as todays taps and dies and the threads
cut with taps and dies did not make the seal that those that were fitted.
 in the fitting process the front of the breach plug comes in contact
with the champher of the barrel the same time as the back end of the
breach plug seals the back side of the barrel.  this is a art form and
not many of todays breaches have been fitted this way--Champher to
champer seal makes a total gas seal and air seal---no air no rust ---only
the captured oil or grease in the threads which will turn black with
age--a little heat and WA'''LLA a 2 hundred year old barrel can be
unbreached---WARNING---TOO MUCH HEAT CAN DAMAGE THE BARREL---
the heat causes the outside metal to expand and the inside breach plug is
same size so it makes it easier to remove the plug---this is similar to
installing a barrel sleeve using todays methods----heat the outside of
the barrel---hole in barrel about .001 to .003
sleeve of the barrel about .001 larger than the barrel hole and upon
appling heat to the outside of the barrel the sleeve can be dropped down
the barrel and will make a force fit --this has to be done fast or you
will ruin a sleeve and a barrel---not a TRICK FOR A NOT KNOWING PERSON---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:41:38 -0600 (CST) [e-mail] (Henry B.
Crawford) writes:
>>...a fellow who found an old barrel used for a fence
>>post (muzzle up) for undoubtedly several hundred years.  Anyway, he
>>decided to unbreach it, applied a little heat, and low and behold it
>>unscrewed like nothin'.  The threads had been coated with some sort
>of
>>tar, and the metal underneath was like new.
>>
>>Anybody else have any experience like this with originals or repo's?
>
>I did something similar with the barrel of a CVA mountain rifle.  I
>applied
>super-hot water down the bore and worked the breechplug out with a
>monkey
>wrench.  It can be done.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: more on fires
Date: 22 Sep 1998 10:04:51 +0100

More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
correctly noted that once a fire is started it
need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
same place.  This is certainly the practice when
we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
(his original job description) included guarding
horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
51).
John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
106)
I also found another reference to making fire.
David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
charred plant material, not some guy with a
pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: need help
Date: 22 Sep 1998 14:20:12 +0100

Somewhere, sometime in the past, I remember
reading in the vast literature of the western fur
trade, a description of a battle between a group
of Delaware hunter/trappers and a group of
opposing Indians.  The Delawares took up a
fortified position with their families in the
center, and during the fight the delaware women
were casting balls and passing them to the
fighting men.  Great stuff, but I can't locate it.

Can anybody else rmember where it is, or is it
just my imagination?
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
Date: 22 Sep 1998 18:24:03 -0500

Allen
My step-daughter has brought home a few of those pierced nose, shaved head
punks that I would gladly started a fire with...offered to with a couple of
them.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
>char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
>for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
>correctly noted that once a fire is started it
>need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
>same place.  This is certainly the practice when
>we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
>O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
>(his original job description) included guarding
>horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
>51).
>John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
>which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
>106)
>I also found another reference to making fire.
>David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
>flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
>us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
>charred plant material, not some guy with a
>pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
>Allen Chronister
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powders...
Date: 22 Sep 1998 20:30:28 -0400

i FORGOT TO WARN A LOT OF THE PEOPLE THAT IN MY EXPERIENCE ABOUT 50 % OF
THE oLD BARRELS  THAT I HAVE UNBREACHED HAVE BEEN LOADED WITH POWDER AND
BALL---BE SURE TO CHECK THE BARREL BEFORE APPLYING HEAT TO THE BREACH
PLUG---

YOU COULD HURT SOMEONE OR SOME THING---ALWAYS CHECK TO MAKE SURE OLD
BARREL IS NOT LOADED---USE A RAMROD OR A METAL ROD TO CHECK---CHECK
PENITRATION TO THE BARREL LENGTH---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:08:29 -0400 [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
writes:
>H.B.
>I thank he is refering to the threads being totaly intact and covered
>with a black film--as i stated in my correspondance it's probably the
>fit of the breach along with the use of greese or black oil used in
>threading and assembly.  most good breach plugs and barrel threads
>were cut on a lathe for both internal and external threads and it took
>a good machinest to cut them---Yes there was taps and dies but those
>were quite crude and hand made and not as precision as todays taps and
>dies and the threads cut with taps and dies did not make the seal that
>those that were fitted.  in the fitting process the front of the
>breach plug comes in contact with the champher of the barrel the same
>time as the back end of the breach plug seals the back side of the
>barrel.  this is a art form and not many of todays breaches have been
>fitted this way--Champher to champer seal makes a total gas seal and
>air seal---no air no rust ---only the captured oil or grease in the
>threads which will turn black with age--a little heat and WA'''LLA a 2
>hundred year old barrel can be unbreached---WARNING---TOO MUCH HEAT
>CAN DAMAGE THE BARREL---
>the heat causes the outside metal to expand and the inside breach plug
>is same size so it makes it easier to remove the plug---this is
>similar to installing a barrel sleeve using todays methods----heat the
>outside of the barrel---hole in barrel about .001 to .003
>sleeve of the barrel about .001 larger than the barrel hole and upon
>appling heat to the outside of the barrel the sleeve can be dropped
>down the barrel and will make a force fit --this has to be done fast
>or you will ruin a sleeve and a barrel---not a TRICK FOR A NOT KNOWING
>PERSON---
>
>      "Hawk"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
>On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:41:38 -0600 (CST) [e-mail] (Henry B.
>Crawford) writes:
>>>...a fellow who found an old barrel used for a fence
>>>post (muzzle up) for undoubtedly several hundred years.  Anyway, he
>>>decided to unbreach it, applied a little heat, and low and behold it
>>>unscrewed like nothin'.  The threads had been coated with some sort
>>of
>>>tar, and the metal underneath was like new.
>>>
>>>Anybody else have any experience like this with originals or repo's?
>>
>>I did something similar with the barrel of a CVA mountain rifle.  I
>>applied
>>super-hot water down the bore and worked the breechplug out with a
>>monkey
>>wrench.  It can be done.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>HBC
>>
>>*****************************************
>>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>>
>>
>>
>>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get
>completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno
>at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

_____________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Fire and 18th century punks ;-)
Date: 23 Sep 1998 02:54:17 -0500

Except for the missing roach you nearly described my new outfit and a couple
of other N.A. reenactors on this list!


   >My step-daughter has brought home a few of those pierced nose,
   >shaved head punks that I would gladly started a fire with...offered
   >to with a couple of them.
   >Lanney
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
Date: 23 Sep 1998 04:58:00 -0700 (PDT)

If you do, be sure to stand clear. The "Mouse(sic)" in their hair may
burn like crazy. Cheaper to just shoot them.




---Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Allen
> My step-daughter has brought home a few of those pierced nose,
shaved head
> punks that I would gladly started a fire with...offered to with a
couple of
> them.
> Lanney
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
> To: chat <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 11:03 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: more on fires
>
>
> >More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
> >char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
> >for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
> >correctly noted that once a fire is started it
> >need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
> >same place.  This is certainly the practice when
> >we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
> >O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
> >(his original job description) included guarding
> >horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
> >51).
> >John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
> >which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
> >106)
> >I also found another reference to making fire.
> >David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
> >flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
> >us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
> >charred plant material, not some guy with a
> >pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
> >Allen Chronister
> >
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "K. Carpenter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powders...
Date: 23 Sep 1998 08:04:46 -0500



Michael Pierce wrote:

> i FORGOT TO WARN A LOT OF THE PEOPLE THAT IN MY EXPERIENCE ABOUT 50 % OF
> THE oLD BARRELS  THAT I HAVE UNBREACHED HAVE BEEN LOADED WITH POWDER AND
> BALL---BE SURE TO CHECK THE BARREL BEFORE APPLYING HEAT TO THE BREACH
> PLUG---
>
> YOU COULD HURT SOMEONE OR SOME THING---ALWAYS CHECK TO MAKE SURE OLD
> BARREL IS NOT LOADED---USE A RAMROD OR A METAL ROD TO CHECK---CHECK
> PENITRATION TO THE BARREL LENGTH---
>

I'll share a story along these lines that, hopefully, may keep someone
safe.  Just a few years ago, two friends of mine were restoring some guns,
found in the basement of a grandfathers house of one of them.  They were a
Colt Walker, a Kentucky rifle, around .40 caliber and a percussion, side by
side shotgun, all originals.  The nipples on the shotgun were both
flattened, probably from being dry fired too many times.  In order to
attempt to back out the nipples for replacement, they began grinding them
flat, on a bench grinder, so an easy out could be used.  You guessed it, a
powder charge, still in the gun, discharged and sent a load of buckshot into
the wall of the workshop.  Fortunately, they were practicing good firearm
safety and not pointing the muzzle at anyone.  This may have been more luck
than anything else.  Just something to keep in mind.

Carp




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
Date: 23 Sep 1998 19:56:53 -0400

heh... I usually made it a habit of cleaning all my BP rifles when my
daughter brought her boyfriends over.  Funny thing.... never say many of
them more than once... Musta been because I had my stone and most of my BIG
knives layin beside the rifles... Ya think ??

Seanbear
-----Original Message-----


>Allen
>My step-daughter has brought home a few of those pierced nose, shaved head
>punks that I would gladly started a fire with...offered to with a couple of
>them.
>Lanney
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
>To: chat <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 11:03 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: more on fires
>
>
>>More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
>>char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
>>for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
>>correctly noted that once a fire is started it
>>need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
>>same place.  This is certainly the practice when
>>we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
>>O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
>>(his original job description) included guarding
>>horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
>>51).
>>John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
>>which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
>>106)
>>I also found another reference to making fire.
>>David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
>>flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
>>us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
>>charred plant material, not some guy with a
>>pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
>>Allen Chronister
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 23 Sep 1998 20:26:51 -0400

Unfortunately, when I bring my boyfriends home for the first time, they see the
guns on the walls, knives on the fireplace, tipi furnishings all over and then
say good-bye.  Cannot find a decent man who understands me or my weapons or my
camping style, or the strange smell of smoked buckskin in the air.  So what if
my favorite Glade stick is Ode-de-smoked-skin.  Isn't there anyone out there
that understands me?????

Linda Holley     ........except you guys.


Addison Miller wrote:

> heh... I usually made it a habit of cleaning all my BP rifles when my
> daughter brought her boyfriends over.  Funny thing.... never say many of
> them more than once... Musta been because I had my stone and most of my BIG
> knives layin beside the rifles... Ya think ??
>
> Seanbear
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 7:19 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
>
> >Allen
> >My step-daughter has brought home a few of those pierced nose, shaved head
> >punks that I would gladly started a fire with...offered to with a couple of
> >them.
> >Lanney
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
> >To: chat <[e-mail]>
> >Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 11:03 AM
> >Subject: MtMan-List: more on fires
> >
> >
> >>More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
> >>char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
> >>for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
> >>correctly noted that once a fire is started it
> >>need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
> >>same place.  This is certainly the practice when
> >>we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
> >>O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
> >>(his original job description) included guarding
> >>horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
> >>51).
> >>John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
> >>which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
> >>106)
> >>I also found another reference to making fire.
> >>David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
> >>flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
> >>us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
> >>charred plant material, not some guy with a
> >>pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
> >>Allen Chronister
> >>
> >
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
Date: 23 Sep 1998 19:27:52 -0500

Lots of things worked pretty good.  About the best, however, was when they
realized that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun and the handgun I
habitually carry is a big Ruger D/A Automatic in .45ACP.  One of them asked
if he could "touch it".  I told him he would need a note from his mother.
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>heh... I usually made it a habit of cleaning all my BP rifles when my
>daughter brought her boyfriends over.  Funny thing.... never say many of
>them more than once... Musta been because I had my stone and most of my BIG
>knives layin beside the rifles... Ya think ??
>
>Seanbear
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 7:19 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
>
>
>>Allen
>>My step-daughter has brought home a few of those pierced nose, shaved head
>>punks that I would gladly started a fire with...offered to with a couple
of
>>them.
>>Lanney
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
>>To: chat <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 11:03 AM
>>Subject: MtMan-List: more on fires
>>
>>
>>>More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
>>>char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
>>>for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
>>>correctly noted that once a fire is started it
>>>need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
>>>same place.  This is certainly the practice when
>>>we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
>>>O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
>>>(his original job description) included guarding
>>>horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
>>>51).
>>>John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
>>>which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
>>>106)
>>>I also found another reference to making fire.
>>>David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
>>>flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
>>>us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
>>>charred plant material, not some guy with a
>>>pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
>>>Allen Chronister
>>>
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas H. Harbold" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 23 Sep 1998 21:16:17 -0400

At 8:26 PM -0400 9/23/98, Linda Holley wrote:
>Unfortunately, when I bring my boyfriends home for the first time, they
>see the
>guns on the walls, knives on the fireplace, tipi furnishings all over and then
>say good-bye.  Cannot find a decent man who understands me or my weapons or my
>camping style, or the strange smell of smoked buckskin in the air.  So what if
>my favorite Glade stick is Ode-de-smoked-skin.  Isn't there anyone out there
>that understands me?????
>
>Linda Holley     ........except you guys.


Darnit, Linda, why'd ya hafta say "except you guys"??? Shoot, I've been
*lookin'* for a woman who likes guns & knives & stuff, for years!!!
***siiiiigh...***

;-)

Yr most humble, &c.,

Thomas





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 23 Sep 1998 23:51:22 -0400

hehe... You KNOW I understand, Linda :))  Went to the shed today to get
stuff like lanterns, etc...forthis lil hurricane thats coming.  Opened a
chest, and this most    WONDERFUL smell of camp smoke rolled out!!!  Going
to Highalnd Games in Tallahassee just to be at a camp :))

Addison and Mouse
-----Original Message-----


>Unfortunately, when I bring my boyfriends home for the first time, they see
the
>guns on the walls, knives on the fireplace, tipi furnishings all over and
then
>say good-bye.  Cannot find a decent man who understands me or my weapons or
my
>camping style, or the strange smell of smoked buckskin in the air.  So what
if
>my favorite Glade stick is Ode-de-smoked-skin.  Isn't there anyone out
there
>that understands me?????
>
>Linda Holley     ........except you guys.
>
>
>Addison Miller wrote:
>
>> heh... I usually made it a habit of cleaning all my BP rifles when my
>> daughter brought her boyfriends over.  Funny thing.... never say many of
>> them more than once... Musta been because I had my stone and most of my
BIG
>> knives layin beside the rifles... Ya think ??
>>
>> Seanbear
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 7:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
>>
>> >Allen
>> >My step-daughter has brought home a few of those pierced nose, shaved
head
>> >punks that I would gladly started a fire with...offered to with a couple
of
>> >them.
>> >Lanney
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
>> >To: chat <[e-mail]>
>> >Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 11:03 AM
>> >Subject: MtMan-List: more on fires
>> >
>> >
>> >>More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
>> >>char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
>> >>for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
>> >>correctly noted that once a fire is started it
>> >>need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
>> >>same place.  This is certainly the practice when
>> >>we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
>> >>O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
>> >>(his original job description) included guarding
>> >>horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
>> >>51).
>> >>John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
>> >>which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
>> >>106)
>> >>I also found another reference to making fire.
>> >>David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
>> >>flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
>> >>us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
>> >>charred plant material, not some guy with a
>> >>pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
>> >>Allen Chronister
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
Date: 23 Sep 1998 23:55:36 -0400

<ROFL> I know this isn't specific to the Mountain Men... but it sure brings
back some memories....

SeanBear
-----Original Message-----


>Lots of things worked pretty good.  About the best, however, was when they
>realized that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun and the handgun I
>habitually carry is a big Ruger D/A Automatic in .45ACP.  One of them asked
>if he could "touch it".  I told him he would need a note from his mother.
>Lanney
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Addison Miller <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 6:55 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
>
>
>>heh... I usually made it a habit of cleaning all my BP rifles when my
>>daughter brought her boyfriends over.  Funny thing.... never say many of
>>them more than once... Musta been because I had my stone and most of my
BIG
>>knives layin beside the rifles... Ya think ??
>>
>>Seanbear
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 7:19 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
>>
>>
>>>Allen
>>>My step-daughter has brought home a few of those pierced nose, shaved
head
>>>punks that I would gladly started a fire with...offered to with a couple
>of
>>>them.
>>>Lanney
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
>>>To: chat <[e-mail]>
>>>Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 11:03 AM
>>>Subject: MtMan-List: more on fires
>>>
>>>
>>>>More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
>>>>char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
>>>>for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
>>>>correctly noted that once a fire is started it
>>>>need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
>>>>same place.  This is certainly the practice when
>>>>we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
>>>>O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
>>>>(his original job description) included guarding
>>>>horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
>>>>51).
>>>>John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
>>>>which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
>>>>106)
>>>>I also found another reference to making fire.
>>>>David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
>>>>flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
>>>>us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
>>>>charred plant material, not some guy with a
>>>>pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
>>>>Allen Chronister
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 24 Sep 1998 06:21:32 EDT

Keep looking and be patient.  I met my fiancee at the NMLRA spring shoot.

Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eli Kutzko <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 24 Sep 1998 07:27:34 -0500

> Keep looking and be patient.  I met my fiancee at the NMLRA
spring shoot.
>
> Red Hawk

Agreed....  I'm new to the list, so I don't quite fall into the
gun-slinging reinactor category.  I was a professional
archaeologist for years.  Am now playing around with writing
historical fiction dealing with the fur trade (I'm a freelance
writer).  I have a man's name given to me by an all male crew I
bested at digging holes in the ground many, many seasons ago
(keep in mind that I'm 5'6" and 115 lb.).  No one has ever
mistaken me for being male in person however.  But being an
archaeologist, there are certain things that go with the trade.
You spend months living in tents and literally years living in
the middle of nowhere making it through the day by your wits.
My clothing style can best be described as functional.  If I'm
out in the rain, I smell like a mix of leather, smoke, and wet
sheep (lots of wool).  I am far more at home in the desert and
the mountains than I will ever be a town or city. There is that
permanent smoke smell that permeates everything I own.  My
library reeks of it because all of my books have done their
share of time in that atmosphere.  I helped another woman run an
archaeology professional services firm.  It was well known among
our friends and colleagues that we had more balls than most men
and would take our four-wheel drive trucks places most men
wouldn't go. Twelve miles of walking is a nice partial day
jaunt. I've been told that I when I get to swearing it would
make a sailor on a Turkish freighter blush.  While I don't have
any guns, I do have knives that make most men back off....

Point of all of this is that I met a fine man a few years ago
(oddly enough he worked in NPR at the time -- I don't consider
that the most outdoorsy, rough and ready profession) and have
been incredibly happily married for a couple of years now.  Men
who appreciate good strong women with character are out there.
Consider all the sensual smoke scent and hardware to be a weed
out factor.  You are getting rid of the ones who aren't going to
appreciate you anyway before things get too serious.  Any man
who backs off because of all this stuff wouldn't be equal to you
in the character and basic personal brawn department either.
Keep your eyes open.  They are out there....  as I'm sure all
the men on this list will agree.... ;o)

Eli


~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
Eli Kutzko    <[e-mail]>

"Just once, I wish we would encounter an alien menace
that wasn't immune to bullets."  The Brigader (Dr. Who)




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 24 Sep 1998 09:26:07 -0400

linda ---we is a dieing breed----and darn few of us left---glad you is
one of us---jenny says my skins should be put put in a cage in the
garage---only have 12 or 15 years of character on them---Every time i
look at them i remember the shinning times---going to have to make a new
pair in 10 or 12 years---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:26:51 -0400 Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Unfortunately, when I bring my boyfriends home for the first time,
>they see the
>guns on the walls, knives on the fireplace, tipi furnishings all over
>and then
>say good-bye.  Cannot find a decent man who understands me or my
>weapons or my
>camping style, or the strange smell of smoked buckskin in the air.  So
>what if
>my favorite Glade stick is Ode-de-smoked-skin.  Isn't there anyone out
>there
>that understands me?????
>
>Linda Holley     ........except you guys.
>
>
>Addison Miller wrote:
>
>> heh... I usually made it a habit of cleaning all my BP rifles when
>my
>> daughter brought her boyfriends over.  Funny thing.... never say
>many of
>> them more than once... Musta been because I had my stone and most of
>my BIG
>> knives layin beside the rifles... Ya think ??
>>
>> Seanbear
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 7:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
>>
>> >Allen
>> >My step-daughter has brought home a few of those pierced nose,
>shaved head
>> >punks that I would gladly started a fire with...offered to with a
>couple of
>> >them.
>> >Lanney
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
>> >To: chat <[e-mail]>
>> >Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 11:03 AM
>> >Subject: MtMan-List: more on fires
>> >
>> >
>> >>More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
>> >>char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
>> >>for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
>> >>correctly noted that once a fire is started it
>> >>need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
>> >>same place.  This is certainly the practice when
>> >>we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
>> >>O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
>> >>(his original job description) included guarding
>> >>horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
>> >>51).
>> >>John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
>> >>which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
>> >>106)
>> >>I also found another reference to making fire.
>> >>David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
>> >>flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
>> >>us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
>> >>charred plant material, not some guy with a
>> >>pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
>> >>Allen Chronister
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house(annual meeting and cook out)
Date: 24 Sep 1998 10:31:43 -0400

linda ---if this match making keeps up we may have to review some of my
single snake eater friends and see if any qualify for you--One chapter of
the special forces association  holds their only  meeting up close to
where you live ever october or november in the Ocalla national
forest---they have a big cook out and camp out there-and fairly close to
your area---probably a hr or hr and 1/2 drive-----bet we could get you a
invite to set up your tee--pee and such--  they will have the big
bondfire one night and memorial to fallen comrads at noon on
sunday---they have the campgrounds from friday thru sunday---good roads
to get to it and plenty of space--they had over 200 members there last
year-----they will be holding the meeting on a camp ground on a nice lake
and it is beautiful up there.  I hope I am back from making winter meat
by then---I missed it last year---there will be a lot of  "been there""
done that" "quite proffessionals" there.  most of the  members of that
chapter dont like orginization  and formality but they have one of the
best run picknicks-camp-outs ever----reminds me of roo'ing back in the
6o's.

I thank they would appreciate a primitative camp and tee-pee--BTW it is a
family affair and no one gets out of order--yet there are usually a few
singles there---some about our age---

I will contact them and see if I can get you a invite if you wish and
have them send you a info pack--overlay map and directions and
such---also will start forwarding Jacks saturday morning episal--darn
fine writeing---he is single and was one of the officers of the
organization---

contact me off-lineif you want  and I will send you details as i get
them---BTW---off to st louis about the 5th so will pick up the skins for
you then and see what we come up with---I know you want the buffilo---may
see you at the alifi and deliver it or may ship it by snail mail--also
have 8 or 10 smoke tans that we discussed---

BTW---ELI KUTZKO you interested in a walk about in arizona we hope to go
out next spring again and go to a Anasazi dwelling with over 200 rooms
--have some pictures of one of the religious dwellings in that
area--there is also a lot of petriglips, and pottery chards in the
area-----it hasent been dug up---cant do any digging---on federal
ground--but plan on doing some documentation and pictures of the
area---closest we can get to it is about 15 miles and its a good walk
in--must carry in everything you need---good water close so dont have a
problem with that---  we found it about 2 years ago while prospecting in
the area---found a lot of low grade blue rock in the area will have the
camper there--probably have to build road again to get in there--contact
me offline if you are interested---dan and I are big into the anasazi
culture and such--want to put a article together about it--

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:27:34 -0500 Eli Kutzko <[e-mail]>
writes:
>> Keep looking and be patient.  I met my fiancee at the NMLRA
>spring shoot.
>>
>> Red Hawk
>
>Agreed....  I'm new to the list, so I don't quite fall into the
>gun-slinging reinactor category.  I was a professional
>archaeologist for years.  Am now playing around with writing
>historical fiction dealing with the fur trade (I'm a freelance
>writer).  I have a man's name given to me by an all male crew I
>bested at digging holes in the ground many, many seasons ago
>(keep in mind that I'm 5'6" and 115 lb.).  No one has ever
>mistaken me for being male in person however.  But being an
>archaeologist, there are certain things that go with the trade.
>You spend months living in tents and literally years living in
>the middle of nowhere making it through the day by your wits.
>My clothing style can best be described as functional.  If I'm
>out in the rain, I smell like a mix of leather, smoke, and wet
>sheep (lots of wool).  I am far more at home in the desert and
>the mountains than I will ever be a town or city. There is that
>permanent smoke smell that permeates everything I own.  My
>library reeks of it because all of my books have done their
>share of time in that atmosphere.  I helped another woman run an
>archaeology professional services firm.  It was well known among
>our friends and colleagues that we had more balls than most men
>and would take our four-wheel drive trucks places most men
>wouldn't go. Twelve miles of walking is a nice partial day
>jaunt. I've been told that I when I get to swearing it would
>make a sailor on a Turkish freighter blush.  While I don't have
>any guns, I do have knives that make most men back off....
>
>Point of all of this is that I met a fine man a few years ago
>(oddly enough he worked in NPR at the time -- I don't consider
>that the most outdoorsy, rough and ready profession) and have
>been incredibly happily married for a couple of years now.  Men
>who appreciate good strong women with character are out there.
>Consider all the sensual smoke scent and hardware to be a weed
>out factor.  You are getting rid of the ones who aren't going to
>appreciate you anyway before things get too serious.  Any man
>who backs off because of all this stuff wouldn't be equal to you
>in the character and basic personal brawn department either.
>Keep your eyes open.  They are out there....  as I'm sure all
>the men on this list will agree.... ;o)
>
>Eli
>
>
>~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
>Eli Kutzko    <[e-mail]>
>
>"Just once, I wish we would encounter an alien menace
>that wasn't immune to bullets."  The Brigader (Dr. Who)
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
Date: 24 Sep 1998 09:14:35 -0500

Thanks Lanney,
When my daughter gets old enough to date I'll be "cleaning" my XM 15 E2S
and have my Ruger P-85 lying on the table as well! Like they say, a picture
is worth a thousand words!
YellowFeather

----------
> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
> Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 7:27 PM
>
> Lots of things worked pretty good.  About the best, however, was when
they
> realized that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun and the handgun
I
> habitually carry is a big Ruger D/A Automatic in .45ACP.  One of them
asked
> if he could "touch it".  I told him he would need a note from his mother.
> Lanney
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Addison Miller <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 6:55 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
>
>
> >heh... I usually made it a habit of cleaning all my BP rifles when my
> >daughter brought her boyfriends over.  Funny thing.... never say many of
> >them more than once... Musta been because I had my stone and most of my
BIG
> >knives layin beside the rifles... Ya think ??
> >
> >Seanbear
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 7:19 PM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
> >
> >
> >>Allen
> >>My step-daughter has brought home a few of those pierced nose, shaved
head
> >>punks that I would gladly started a fire with...offered to with a
couple
> of
> >>them.
> >>Lanney
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
> >>To: chat <[e-mail]>
> >>Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 11:03 AM
> >>Subject: MtMan-List: more on fires
> >>
> >>
> >>>More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
> >>>char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
> >>>for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
> >>>correctly noted that once a fire is started it
> >>>need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
> >>>same place.  This is certainly the practice when
> >>>we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
> >>>O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
> >>>(his original job description) included guarding
> >>>horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
> >>>51).
> >>>John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
> >>>which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
> >>>106)
> >>>I also found another reference to making fire.
> >>>David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
> >>>flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
> >>>us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
> >>>charred plant material, not some guy with a
> >>>pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
> >>>Allen Chronister
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in house
Date: 24 Sep 1998 11:32:43 -0600 (CST)

>Thanks Lanney,
>When my daughter gets old enough to date I'll be "cleaning" my XM 15 E2S
>and have my Ruger P-85 lying on the table as well! Like they say, a picture
>is worth a thousand words!
>YellowFeather


Friends
I have two daughters, oldest being 11 going on 17.  I'd be inclined to do
likewise, except that you don't want the wrong type of boy to know about
the guns in the house, either.  It takes a bit of cautious judgement, I
think.  They will all get screened to a degree before the "gun shows"
begin.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 24 Sep 1998 20:51:22 -0400

Gee guys, when I said "except you guys" it was with the understanding that all of
you knew where I was coming from, you do understand me.  Except  it is hard to tell
people what we do.  For men to tell the ladies, they understand your going out with
the boys for the weekend camp out.  With us girls it is, You are going where and
sleeping with whom in what cold bed in the middle of no where....not in this life
time.   Wives are more understanding of men who participate than the husbands.
Must be some kind of macho thing.  I do not really know.   But the last time I said
I was going out for the weekend with the boys... I came back to an empty house,
except for the two dogs.  They died.


Linda Holley


Thomas H. Harbold wrote:

> At 8:26 PM -0400 9/23/98, Linda Holley wrote:
> >Unfortunately, when I bring my boyfriends home for the first time, they
> >see the
> >guns on the walls, knives on the fireplace, tipi furnishings all over and then
> >say good-bye.  Cannot find a decent man who understands me or my weapons or my
> >camping style, or the strange smell of smoked buckskin in the air.  So what if
> >my favorite Glade stick is Ode-de-smoked-skin.  Isn't there anyone out there
> >that understands me?????
> >
> >Linda Holley     ........except you guys.
>
> Darnit, Linda, why'd ya hafta say "except you guys"??? Shoot, I've been
> *lookin'* for a woman who likes guns & knives & stuff, for years!!!
> ***siiiiigh...***
>
> ;-)
>
> Yr most humble, &c.,
>
> Thomas






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 24 Sep 1998 20:45:32 -0500

Howdy Linda,
Guess I better get Calamity Jane to write you a note so you won't think
it's just some Macho thing. Pam is sweet and soft to the touch, but she
shoots center, can skin anything, put a tipi up by herself, and her
favorite knife is an original 18 inch long butcher knife I got her at
rendezvous at Henry's Fork in ' 75. In fact she is happiest when we are in
the middle of no where. I'm going to meet Hawk the weekend of the 10th. for
a couple of weeks of hunting, and she is taking off to Big Bend with our
three kids to go hiking and camping. She's always taking off somewhere like
that. And I am always here when she gets back. ( Even when she did a year
solo in Korea ) I have a friend in VA just like you. Only woman I ever met
who could skin a deer faster than most men. Then there was Rainbow, an
Apache woman we met at the 1976 rendezvous in Utah, who came in alone, set
up her own camp ( huge tipi ) and she seemed to really have a great time.
So this old curmudgeon understands perfectly! It's just some men are too
dang stupid to know a good thing when they see it. Hang in there!
YellowFeather

Dear Linda,
    Just got home from my after work errands and Ken asked if I wanted to add
my two cents worth.  First of all, I'm sorry about your dogs.  The
four-legged ones.  I got lucky when I found Ken who walks in my soul.  Keep
looking and doing what you like to do and hopefully one day Mr. Right for
You will come along.  Most men, for all their talk, I think are pretty
insecure when it comes to accepting a mate as an equal.  There's a
psychological syndrome that seems to dictate that they want Mom in the
kitchen and a seductress in the bedroom and sometimes they can't accept
that you're a person in your own right and not an extension of themselves.
I think that society still programs boys to think that this is the way it's
supposed to be and women keep letting them get away with it.  But, when you
find one that is willing to share with you and trust you it's GREAT!  So
don't despair, there are some out there.

Love,
Calamity Jane
(Pam)

----------
> From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
> Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 7:51 PM
>
> Gee guys, when I said "except you guys" it was with the understanding
that all of
> you knew where I was coming from, you do understand me.  Except  it is
hard to tell
> people what we do.  For men to tell the ladies, they understand your
going out with
> the boys for the weekend camp out.  With us girls it is, You are going
where and
> sleeping with whom in what cold bed in the middle of no where....not in
this life
> time.   Wives are more understanding of men who participate than the
husbands.
> Must be some kind of macho thing.  I do not really know.   But the last
time I said
> I was going out for the weekend with the boys... I came back to an empty
house,
> except for the two dogs.  They died.
>
>
> Linda Holley
>
>
> Thomas H. Harbold wrote:
>
> > At 8:26 PM -0400 9/23/98, Linda Holley wrote:
> > >Unfortunately, when I bring my boyfriends home for the first time,
they
> > >see the
> > >guns on the walls, knives on the fireplace, tipi furnishings all over
and then
> > >say good-bye.  Cannot find a decent man who understands me or my
weapons or my
> > >camping style, or the strange smell of smoked buckskin in the air.  So
what if
> > >my favorite Glade stick is Ode-de-smoked-skin.  Isn't there anyone out
there
> > >that understands me?????
> > >
> > >Linda Holley     ........except you guys.
> >
> > Darnit, Linda, why'd ya hafta say "except you guys"??? Shoot, I've been
> > *lookin'* for a woman who likes guns & knives & stuff, for years!!!
> > ***siiiiigh...***
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> > Yr most humble, &c.,
> >
> > Thomas
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 24 Sep 1998 22:31:17 -0400

thanks for the messages.....they are appriciated........

Linda Holley

Ken wrote:

> Howdy Linda,
> Guess I better get Calamity Jane to write you a note so you won't think
> it's just some Macho thing. Pam is sweet and soft to the touch, but she
> shoots center, can skin anything, put a tipi up by herself, and her
> favorite knife is an original 18 inch long butcher knife I got her at
> rendezvous at Henry's Fork in ' 75. In fact she is happiest when we are in
> the middle of no where. I'm going to meet Hawk the weekend of the 10th. for
> a couple of weeks of hunting, and she is taking off to Big Bend with our
> three kids to go hiking and camping. She's always taking off somewhere like
> that. And I am always here when she gets back. ( Even when she did a year
> solo in Korea ) I have a friend in VA just like you. Only woman I ever met
> who could skin a deer faster than most men. Then there was Rainbow, an
> Apache woman we met at the 1976 rendezvous in Utah, who came in alone, set
> up her own camp ( huge tipi ) and she seemed to really have a great time.
> So this old curmudgeon understands perfectly! It's just some men are too
> dang stupid to know a good thing when they see it. Hang in there!
> YellowFeather
>
> Dear Linda,
>         Just got home from my after work errands and Ken asked if I wanted to add
> my two cents worth.  First of all, I'm sorry about your dogs.  The
> four-legged ones.  I got lucky when I found Ken who walks in my soul.  Keep
> looking and doing what you like to do and hopefully one day Mr. Right for
> You will come along.  Most men, for all their talk, I think are pretty
> insecure when it comes to accepting a mate as an equal.  There's a
> psychological syndrome that seems to dictate that they want Mom in the
> kitchen and a seductress in the bedroom and sometimes they can't accept
> that you're a person in your own right and not an extension of themselves.
> I think that society still programs boys to think that this is the way it's
> supposed to be and women keep letting them get away with it.  But, when you
> find one that is willing to share with you and trust you it's GREAT!  So
> don't despair, there are some out there.
>
> Love,
> Calamity Jane
> (Pam)
>
> ----------
> > From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
> > Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 7:51 PM
> >
> > Gee guys, when I said "except you guys" it was with the understanding
> that all of
> > you knew where I was coming from, you do understand me.  Except  it is
> hard to tell
> > people what we do.  For men to tell the ladies, they understand your
> going out with
> > the boys for the weekend camp out.  With us girls it is, You are going
> where and
> > sleeping with whom in what cold bed in the middle of no where....not in
> this life
> > time.   Wives are more understanding of men who participate than the
> husbands.
> > Must be some kind of macho thing.  I do not really know.   But the last
> time I said
> > I was going out for the weekend with the boys... I came back to an empty
> house,
> > except for the two dogs.  They died.
> >
> >
> > Linda Holley
> >
> >
> > Thomas H. Harbold wrote:
> >
> > > At 8:26 PM -0400 9/23/98, Linda Holley wrote:
> > > >Unfortunately, when I bring my boyfriends home for the first time,
> they
> > > >see the
> > > >guns on the walls, knives on the fireplace, tipi furnishings all over
> and then
> > > >say good-bye.  Cannot find a decent man who understands me or my
> weapons or my
> > > >camping style, or the strange smell of smoked buckskin in the air.  So
> what if
> > > >my favorite Glade stick is Ode-de-smoked-skin.  Isn't there anyone out
> there
> > > >that understands me?????
> > > >
> > > >Linda Holley     ........except you guys.
> > >
> > > Darnit, Linda, why'd ya hafta say "except you guys"??? Shoot, I've been
> > > *lookin'* for a woman who likes guns & knives & stuff, for years!!!
> > > ***siiiiigh...***
> > >
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > > Yr most humble, &c.,
> > >
> > > Thomas
> >
> >
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eli Kutzko <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 24 Sep 1998 21:38:58 -0500

Linda Holley wrote:

...it is hard to tell
> people what we do.....  With us girls it is, You are going
where and
> sleeping with whom in what cold bed in the middle of no
where....not in this life
> time.

I know this one well.  My ex was like that with the accusations.
 One night while he was at work, I packed up my truck, put my
dog in the passenger seat, and drove off.  Smartest thing I ever
did.

Don't fret it.  Not all men are like that.  My husband is used
to me running all over heck and lore at the drop of a hat.  I
suffer from a bad case of must-wander.  He knows I'll be back.
Just recently I ran into a snag on accomodations because I
wanted to run lighter than usual.  My hubby suggested I bunk
with one of my ex-lovers who was going to be there.  I laughed
so hard I nearly blew venison out my nose.  Men like that are a
great change in pace (there are more of them out there than you
think).  Trust is a wonderful thing.

Sorry too about the dogs... you really ought to think of getting
some new furry buddies.

Eli


~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
Eli Kutzko    <[e-mail]>

"Just once, I wish we would encounter an alien menace
that wasn't immune to bullets."  The Brigader (Dr. Who)




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 24 Sep 1998 07:33:36 -0700

my kind of woman.         iron tongue

Linda Holley wrote:

> Unfortunately, when I bring my boyfriends home for the first time, they see the
> guns on the walls, knives on the fireplace, tipi furnishings all over and then
> say good-bye.  Cannot find a decent man who understands me or my weapons or my
> camping style, or the strange smell of smoked buckskin in the air.  So what if
> my favorite Glade stick is Ode-de-smoked-skin.  Isn't there anyone out there
> that understands me?????
>
> Linda Holley     ........except you guys.
>
> Addison Miller wrote:
>
> > heh... I usually made it a habit of cleaning all my BP rifles when my
> > daughter brought her boyfriends over.  Funny thing.... never say many of
> > them more than once... Musta been because I had my stone and most of my BIG
> > knives layin beside the rifles... Ya think ??
> >
> > Seanbear
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 7:19 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on fires
> >
> > >Allen
> > >My step-daughter has brought home a few of those pierced nose, shaved head
> > >punks that I would gladly started a fire with...offered to with a couple of
> > >them.
> > >Lanney
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
> > >To: chat <[e-mail]>
> > >Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 11:03 AM
> > >Subject: MtMan-List: more on fires
> > >
> > >
> > >>More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
> > >>char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
> > >>for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
> > >>correctly noted that once a fire is started it
> > >>need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
> > >>same place.  This is certainly the practice when
> > >>we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
> > >>O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
> > >>(his original job description) included guarding
> > >>horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
> > >>51).
> > >>John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
> > >>which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
> > >>106)
> > >>I also found another reference to making fire.
> > >>David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
> > >>flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
> > >>us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
> > >>charred plant material, not some guy with a
> > >>pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
> > >>Allen Chronister
> > >>
> > >
> > >




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 24 Sep 1998 07:50:43 -0700

got the same problem with girls i bring out hear to my house about 1/2 hr and they
ask what do the woman do out hear . i know then im sunk so i tell them that my last
wife didn't have much to do because i kept her busy  skinning skunk an possum. told
hr that i wouldn't work her more than 10 or  12 hr. a day and she could work for the
jones boys in her spare time cutting wood . the wouldn't be mean to her if she worked
hard and didn't eat to much. kept that woman locked in the basement  cant understand
why she left me. then i wait for them to say well iv got to go now and we will get
together soon ya right . sometimes i laff tell i get tears in my eyes.  iron tongue

Ken wrote:

> Howdy Linda,
> Guess I better get Calamity Jane to write you a note so you won't think
> it's just some Macho thing. Pam is sweet and soft to the touch, but she
> shoots center, can skin anything, put a tipi up by herself, and her
> favorite knife is an original 18 inch long butcher knife I got her at
> rendezvous at Henry's Fork in ' 75. In fact she is happiest when we are in
> the middle of no where. I'm going to meet Hawk the weekend of the 10th. for
> a couple of weeks of hunting, and she is taking off to Big Bend with our
> three kids to go hiking and camping. She's always taking off somewhere like
> that. And I am always here when she gets back. ( Even when she did a year
> solo in Korea ) I have a friend in VA just like you. Only woman I ever met
> who could skin a deer faster than most men. Then there was Rainbow, an
> Apache woman we met at the 1976 rendezvous in Utah, who came in alone, set
> up her own camp ( huge tipi ) and she seemed to really have a great time.
> So this old curmudgeon understands perfectly! It's just some men are too
> dang stupid to know a good thing when they see it. Hang in there!
> YellowFeather
>
> Dear Linda,
>         Just got home from my after work errands and Ken asked if I wanted to add
> my two cents worth.  First of all, I'm sorry about your dogs.  The
> four-legged ones.  I got lucky when I found Ken who walks in my soul.  Keep
> looking and doing what you like to do and hopefully one day Mr. Right for
> You will come along.  Most men, for all their talk, I think are pretty
> insecure when it comes to accepting a mate as an equal.  There's a
> psychological syndrome that seems to dictate that they want Mom in the
> kitchen and a seductress in the bedroom and sometimes they can't accept
> that you're a person in your own right and not an extension of themselves.
> I think that society still programs boys to think that this is the way it's
> supposed to be and women keep letting them get away with it.  But, when you
> find one that is willing to share with you and trust you it's GREAT!  So
> don't despair, there are some out there.
>
> Love,
> Calamity Jane
> (Pam)
>
> ----------
> > From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
> > Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 7:51 PM
> >
> > Gee guys, when I said "except you guys" it was with the understanding
> that all of
> > you knew where I was coming from, you do understand me.  Except  it is
> hard to tell
> > people what we do.  For men to tell the ladies, they understand your
> going out with
> > the boys for the weekend camp out.  With us girls it is, You are going
> where and
> > sleeping with whom in what cold bed in the middle of no where....not in
> this life
> > time.   Wives are more understanding of men who participate than the
> husbands.
> > Must be some kind of macho thing.  I do not really know.   But the last
> time I said
> > I was going out for the weekend with the boys... I came back to an empty
> house,
> > except for the two dogs.  They died.
> >
> >
> > Linda Holley
> >
> >
> > Thomas H. Harbold wrote:
> >
> > > At 8:26 PM -0400 9/23/98, Linda Holley wrote:
> > > >Unfortunately, when I bring my boyfriends home for the first time,
> they
> > > >see the
> > > >guns on the walls, knives on the fireplace, tipi furnishings all over
> and then
> > > >say good-bye.  Cannot find a decent man who understands me or my
> weapons or my
> > > >camping style, or the strange smell of smoked buckskin in the air.  So
> what if
> > > >my favorite Glade stick is Ode-de-smoked-skin.  Isn't there anyone out
> there
> > > >that understands me?????
> > > >
> > > >Linda Holley     ........except you guys.
> > >
> > > Darnit, Linda, why'd ya hafta say "except you guys"??? Shoot, I've been
> > > *lookin'* for a woman who likes guns & knives & stuff, for years!!!
> > > ***siiiiigh...***
> > >
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > > Yr most humble, &c.,
> > >
> > > Thomas
> >
> >
> >




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eli Kutzko <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trying to find a good man
Date: 24 Sep 1998 22:09:32 -0500

Linda Holley wrote:

> Gee guys, when I said "except you guys" it was with the
understanding that all of
> you knew where I was coming from, you do understand me.
Except  it is hard to tell
> people what we do.....

Okay, let me add my two cents:

First off, this is NOT Eli. This is Sean, Eli's husband. She is
wonderful to look at, and also sweet to the touch (as somebody
else wrote of their wife). That being said, there is NO question
who you'd want in the middle of nowhere. Eli would be out there
with a pack, good boots, maybe a decent knife, and a well-made
hat. She'd catch fish with her bare hands, cook them over a fire
made with flint (matches are for wimps), burp loudly after
dinner, and sleep on bare ground. Me? I'd be dying from heat
exhaustion after lugging my pack around, complete with ham radio
gear, aluminum poles for antennas, portable generator, canvas
tent with room for 12, global positioning system, and electric
bread-making machine. I'd squeal if I got a hangnail, and go
into withdrawl without access to a National Public Radio station
to listen to.

She can do whatever the hell she wants.. think *I'M* gonna stop
her?

There are a lot of guys who appreciate good, strong women! Eli
can stand on her own two feet (and bail my butt out of a SERIOUS
jam if need be). Don't give up the search...he's out there,
hiding under some rock.

Okay, gotta run.. my decaf mocha is getting cold.

Sean Kutzko
Urbana, Illinois


~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
Eli Kutzko    <[e-mail]>

"Just once, I wish we would encounter an alien menace
that wasn't immune to bullets."  The Brigader (Dr. Who)




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trying to find a good man
Date: 24 Sep 1998 22:40:45 -0500

Washtahay-
gee, Eli's husband Sean sounded OK until he said...
>my decaf mocha is getting cold.
LongWalker c. du B.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wayne Mumford <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trying to find a good man
Date: 24 Sep 1998 10:03:49 -0600

Linda,

This string is really fun, not that I'm enjoying your situation, it's
just that a woman with your interests etc.is like manna form heaven
these days. I have couple single buddies that get tangled up in some of
the crazziest relationships with some real loonie tunes. Whether you
know it or not- you are in great demand and you WILL run into a "good
man" one of these days. With the pack that I used to run with before I
got married, all hopeless outdoor types, we would have been bouncing off
your tipi flaps like hail in thunderstorm.

Maybe it defies the male logic to see a woman with all the toys and
attributes that he would like to have himself so it sets him back a
bit...but if he's gone Ga-Ga he'll get over it!

I remember we once saw an attractive gall in an ol beat up pickup truck
with a couple dogs riding shotgun and the whole bunch of us about fell
over ourselves with little cartoon hearts floating all over the place.
And she was long gone before anyone had recovered enough sense to give a
chase...

He's out there...just hasn't caught up with you yet!

Wayne
--
Frontier Filmworks
Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
Locations-Prints-Stock Images
The Lewis & Clark Trail
http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trying to find a good man
Date: 25 Sep 1998 01:27:17 -0400

Ok, Sean... I'll write of my GREAT wife :))  Her first Ronny was Alafia 96,
adn she took to it like a duck to water.  My first wife just dinna
understand... said it was just games, adn I dinna need that... sure don't
miss her!!  Vicki (I call her Mouse), is the GREATEST partner a guy could
have.  Get camp set up, adn she shoos me off.. and putters until the camp is
perfect... <lol> Drives me nuts, but I love it... heh...  She shoots a lil
.36, and on her first shoot, could cover the holes with a small plate.
Loads her own and is gettin to be a good shot.  She will definately do to
ride tha river with...  She is my soul mate, my lover, my companion, my
wife... GADS!!!, its great :))

SeanBear
aka Addison Miller
-----Original Message-----


>Linda Holley wrote:
>
>> Gee guys, when I said "except you guys" it was with the
>understanding that all of
>> you knew where I was coming from, you do understand me.
>Except  it is hard to tell
>> people what we do.....
>
>Okay, let me add my two cents:
>
>First off, this is NOT Eli. This is Sean, Eli's husband. She is
>wonderful to look at, and also sweet to the touch (as somebody
>else wrote of their wife). That being said, there is NO question
>who you'd want in the middle of nowhere. Eli would be out there
>with a pack, good boots, maybe a decent knife, and a well-made
>hat. She'd catch fish with her bare hands, cook them over a fire
>made with flint (matches are for wimps), burp loudly after
>dinner, and sleep on bare ground. Me? I'd be dying from heat
>exhaustion after lugging my pack around, complete with ham radio
>gear, aluminum poles for antennas, portable generator, canvas
>tent with room for 12, global positioning system, and electric
>bread-making machine. I'd squeal if I got a hangnail, and go
>into withdrawl without access to a National Public Radio station
>to listen to.
>
>She can do whatever the hell she wants.. think *I'M* gonna stop
>her?
>
>There are a lot of guys who appreciate good, strong women! Eli
>can stand on her own two feet (and bail my butt out of a SERIOUS
>jam if need be). Don't give up the search...he's out there,
>hiding under some rock.
>
>Okay, gotta run.. my decaf mocha is getting cold.
>
>Sean Kutzko
>Urbana, Illinois
>
>
>~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
>Eli Kutzko    <[e-mail]>
>
>"Just once, I wish we would encounter an alien menace
>that wasn't immune to bullets."  The Brigader (Dr. Who)
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trying to find a good man
Date: 25 Sep 1998 01:30:15 -0400

I've known Linda for several years, and she is a real sweetie :))  If'n
Mouse wasn't in my tent, I'd give chase real quick...  Hang in there Hon...
He's out there, and one day, you will find him.  Just send Mouse and me an
invite to tha weddin.... :))

SeanBear

PS: You goin to the Highland Games in Tallahassee 8-11 Oct??


-----Original Message-----


>Linda,
>
>This string is really fun, not that I'm enjoying your situation, it's
>just that a woman with your interests etc.is like manna form heaven
>these days. I have couple single buddies that get tangled up in some of
>the crazziest relationships with some real loonie tunes. Whether you
>know it or not- you are in great demand and you WILL run into a "good
>man" one of these days. With the pack that I used to run with before I
>got married, all hopeless outdoor types, we would have been bouncing off
>your tipi flaps like hail in thunderstorm.
>
>Maybe it defies the male logic to see a woman with all the toys and
>attributes that he would like to have himself so it sets him back a
>bit...but if he's gone Ga-Ga he'll get over it!
>
>I remember we once saw an attractive gall in an ol beat up pickup truck
>with a couple dogs riding shotgun and the whole bunch of us about fell
>over ourselves with little cartoon hearts floating all over the place.
>And she was long gone before anyone had recovered enough sense to give a
>chase...
>
>He's out there...just hasn't caught up with you yet!
>
>Wayne
>--
>Frontier Filmworks
>Still Photography by Wayne Mumford
>Locations-Prints-Stock Images
>The Lewis & Clark Trail
>http://gallery.in-tch.com/~ffw/
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trying to find a good man -Reply
Date: 25 Sep 1998 00:07:43 -0700

hmmmmmm....   : )   I like this string.  It's fun.    And Linda,
Good luck, and I'm sorry about the dogs.

"two roads diverge in a yellow wood.....   who needs a road?*



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Meriweather on Kit Carson
Date: 25 Sep 1998 05:38:13 -0600

Allen,

Since you have apparently read David Meriweather's book, let me ask you what
you think of Meriweather's assessment of Kit Carson being so contrary to the
image of Carson promoted by John Fremont and Carson's biographers?

Dave
-----Original Message-----


>More on firemaking.  Someone questioned how much
>char cloth would be needed to start 3 fires a day
>for extended periods of time.  Someone else very
>correctly noted that once a fire is started it
>need not be put out as long as camp stays in the
>same place.  This is certainly the practice when
>we camp, and it is reflected in period journals.
>O. Russell stated that the jobs of a camp keeper
>(his original job description) included guarding
>horses, cooking and keeping the fires going (p.
>51).
>John Kirk Townsend described drying meat, during
>which time the fire was "going constantly."  (p.
>106)
>I also found another reference to making fire.
>David Meriweather mentioned striking fire with
>flint and steel and "some punk we had taken with
>us."  (p. 59).  "Punk" of course probably means
>charred plant material, not some guy with a
>pierced nose, shaved head and a motorcycle jacket.
>Allen Chronister
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eli Kutzko <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mocha and Request for info
Date: 25 Sep 1998 08:04:02 -0500

> Washtahay-
> gee, Eli's husband Sean sounded OK until he said...
> >my decaf mocha is getting cold.
> LongWalker c. du B.
>

<*snicker*>  He's just giving you guys some grief.

He's still quite green though.  Gonna walk it out of him next
June however.   He's gotten it into his head that he wants to
spend a couple of weeks up in the Sangre de Cristo Range along
the San Luis Valley of Co.  I figure I have my work cut out for
me.  Last time I suggested we go somewhere fairly remote, I
about keeled over when I saw the pile of gear he "had" to take.
When he started talking about renting a generator, I altered the
travel plans a bit.  This time I've got a couple of mules for
him to deal with if he wants all that stuff.  That oughta learn
him.  ;o)

So on a side tangent, does anyone know of a source for
information regarding Annie Blanche Sokalski besides Dee Brown's
Gentle Tamers?  She was apparently quite the character.  A
little late for the trade era however (he mentions her in the
1860s).  She traveled in a wolfskin riding habit with thirteen
dogs and was quite a markswoman.  Didn't take any grief from men
whatsoever.

Eli

~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
Eli Kutzko    <[e-mail]>

"Just once, I wish we would encounter an alien menace
that wasn't immune to bullets."  The Brigader (Dr. Who)




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 25 Sep 1998 08:01:54 -0500

   > But the last time I said I was
   >going out for the weekend with the boys... I came back to an empty
   >house, except for the two dogs.  They died.
Did that clod leave them to die? Sounds like someone needs a Scalping at
least(preferably more ;-) ) Sorry, I have a bad attitude about anyone who
abuses kids,animals,etc. and would like to treat them all to the same things
they do!
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trying to find a good man
Date: 25 Sep 1998 08:02:03 -0500

   >Washtahay-
   >gee, Eli's husband Sean sounded OK until he said...
   >>my decaf mocha is getting cold.
   >LongWalker c. du B.
Yup,even listens to GOOD radio!
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Deleware
Date: 25 Sep 1998 06:53:58 -0600

Allen,

As per Deleware forting up to fight other Indians, I believe that it's is
part of the Kit Carson legend that he was with Deleware hunters on the
Southern Plains when they were attacked by Commache and forted up behind
their carcasses of their own horses which they killed to form a barracade.
In the version of the story which I read most recently, there was no mention
of Deleware women in the party.

Dave
-----Original Message-----


>Somewhere, sometime in the past, I remember
>reading in the vast literature of the western fur
>trade, a description of a battle between a group
>of Delaware hunter/trappers and a group of
>opposing Indians.  The Delawares took up a
>fortified position with their families in the
>center, and during the fight the delaware women
>were casting balls and passing them to the
>fighting men.  Great stuff, but I can't locate it.
>
>Can anybody else rmember where it is, or is it
>just my imagination?
>Allen Chronister
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: enoughs enough
Date: 25 Sep 1998 08:10:48 -0600

OK, I believe the lonely hearts club is covered. back to history please!!!
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "P. Amschler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Out of the Woods
Date: 25 Sep 1998 07:11:42 -0700

     Well I will admit that finding a good man is the same as finding a good woman! I was married for 8 looooong years to a women who would not even look  at a gun let alone touch one! She did everything in her power to keep the young's away from our true history! Now she has a son in the rangers as a snipper and a daughter who is married to a guy that has LOT'S of guns! As for me I have a wife who shoots better, than I do, kinda humbling, love to hunt and fish and is native american!
     Before you date someone some friends of mine used to say "Before you ask her out ask her if she rides horses and shoots GUNS?" (all of us old ones should remember Sky King) When I asked her she looked at me like I was nuts then as a joke said sure I do all that! BAM BAM BAM Fell in love found out she had never shot anything till we met and now if I go to a gun shop without her I sleep with the spiders (don't have a dog anymore). We spent seven months on a res together now she is going to her first Ronny this weekend! Boy I struck it rich with her!

Paul 'Oso" amschler

I know this doesn't meet the list's rules but hope to just throw out my 2cents in support of women in search of a good man!
---

[e-mail]



Get your FREE E-mail at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: enoughs enough
Date: 25 Sep 1998 10:26:12 -0400

Lighten up, Joe :)  This IS sorta history... Remember the "Mail Order
Brides" in Oregon and the West coast?? ...*chuckles*

SeanBear
-----Original Message-----


>OK, I believe the lonely hearts club is covered. back to history please!!!
>Joe
>
>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>Write for custom tanning prices
>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
>hair on robes
>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
>check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: enoughs enough
Date: 25 Sep 1998 09:51:08 -0500


> Lighten up, Joe :)  This IS sorta history... Remember the "Mail Order
> Brides" in Oregon and the West coast?? ...*chuckles*
>
> SeanBear

Sorta nothing, it's our history! :) Most of us chose doing this because of
a love of the history, the style, the romance ( yeah, admit it! ), and a
way of life we would choose over our current condition. This old curmudgeon
has enjoyed it enormously! Calamity and I learned there's still a great
bunch of people who like doing it their own way and not following the herd.

YellowFeather



-----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, September 25, 1998 10:12 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: enoughs enough
>
>
> >OK, I believe the lonely hearts club is covered. back to history
please!!!
> >Joe
> >
> >Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
> >Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
> >Write for custom tanning prices
> >We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
> >hair on robes
> >Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings,
baskets
> >check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
> >
> >
> >
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trying to find a good man
Date: 25 Sep 1998 10:31:26 -0400

eli---
we need to introduce this husband to panther, and the over the log
drink--might make him give up the moka for sure---he might learn what
tee-pee'ing is and it aint doing #1 or #2---a basic form of
socalizing---we introduced a bunch of canadians to the artform and we
couldnt keep them out of camp after that---they even swapped of their al.
poles---and one of them got a pierced ear out of it along with one of our
bunch---barb wire tings sure make a pretty ear farble for the mocho moko
types---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 22:40:45 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>gee, Eli's husband Sean sounded OK until he said...
>>my decaf mocha is getting cold.
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Out of the Woods
Date: 25 Sep 1998 10:54:53 -0700 (PDT)


Amen to that!!!
My wife of 14 yrs. can outshooy me, that's what keeps me a good little
boy.



---"P. Amschler" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>      Well I will admit that finding a good man is the same as
finding a good woman! I was married for 8 looooong years to a women
who would not even look  at a gun let alone touch one! She did
everything in her power to keep the young's away from our true
history! Now she has a son in the rangers as a snipper and a daughter
who is married to a guy that has LOT'S of guns! As for me I have a
wife who shoots better, than I do, kinda humbling, love to hunt and
fish and is native american!
>      Before you date someone some friends of mine used to say
"Before you ask her out ask her if she rides horses and shoots GUNS?"
(all of us old ones should remember Sky King) When I asked her she
looked at me like I was nuts then as a joke said sure I do all that!
BAM BAM BAM Fell in love found out she had never shot anything till we
met and now if I go to a gun shop without her I sleep with the spiders
(don't have a dog anymore). We spent seven months on a res together
now she is going to her first Ronny this weekend! Boy I struck it rich
with her!
>
> Paul 'Oso" amschler
>
> I know this doesn't meet the list's rules but hope to just throw out
my 2cents in support of women in search of a good man!
> ---
>
> [e-mail]
>
>
>
> Get your FREE E-mail at http://mailcity.lycos.com
> Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Out of the Woods
Date: 25 Sep 1998 10:54:53 -0700 (PDT)


Amen to that!!!
My wife of 14 yrs. can outshooy me, that's what keeps me a good little
boy.



---"P. Amschler" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>      Well I will admit that finding a good man is the same as
finding a good woman! I was married for 8 looooong years to a women
who would not even look  at a gun let alone touch one! She did
everything in her power to keep the young's away from our true
history! Now she has a son in the rangers as a snipper and a daughter
who is married to a guy that has LOT'S of guns! As for me I have a
wife who shoots better, than I do, kinda humbling, love to hunt and
fish and is native american!
>      Before you date someone some friends of mine used to say
"Before you ask her out ask her if she rides horses and shoots GUNS?"
(all of us old ones should remember Sky King) When I asked her she
looked at me like I was nuts then as a joke said sure I do all that!
BAM BAM BAM Fell in love found out she had never shot anything till we
met and now if I go to a gun shop without her I sleep with the spiders
(don't have a dog anymore). We spent seven months on a res together
now she is going to her first Ronny this weekend! Boy I struck it rich
with her!
>
> Paul 'Oso" amschler
>
> I know this doesn't meet the list's rules but hope to just throw out
my 2cents in support of women in search of a good man!
> ---
>
> [e-mail]
>
>
>
> Get your FREE E-mail at http://mailcity.lycos.com
> Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 25 Sep 1998 17:26:12 EDT

You might try some of the modern day rendezvous.  My daughters love to go,
because of all the single boys and men they find and almost all of the love
our camp which we set up there.  There's a rendezvous in all most if not every
state, and most at this time of year.  Holler if you need to find date and
place where ever you are.
            TrapRJoe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Romance and smoke
Date: 25 Sep 1998 17:45:49 -0400

To all of you that sent your grateful comments on this sight and to me personally, thank you.   I was really just making some thoughtful comments on a bad night in my life.  This just seemed to be the place where they landed.  But one thing nice has come out of this, we have seen more subscribers open up and say "hello" and get to know each other than before.  This is a sight for historic information, but to know some of the persons and personalities who are on here has be even more informative than some of the technical detail we all get into.  It has
given a chance for others to say their two bits who have never or hardly been heard from in the past.  It was nice.
I will drag myself off into the distance and look for that wonderful soul who likes guns, tipis, and the smell of a good forest fire, and the new dog.   Her name is Jezebel and she is a wanton hussy.  Rolls over for anyone.  And No, my ex-husband did not leave the dogs in the house to die.  Old age got them.  But they were mine.  And they went to many a rendezvous with me from the 1978 Livingston, NAPR event to the Kikapoo tornado disaster a few years later.  Too bad "some" men are not loving as a good dog.  But with all the buffalo robes I have,  I am
warm, cozy and love to snuggle around a good fire on a frosty night in a warm tipi.  Nothing like it.   Except to have your friends around a fire on a crystal clear night in the High Uintas or Colorado Mts.  singing some good songs  and passing the Son of Jug around.  I didn't get to go camping again this year and am having withdrawal symptoms.   Don't we all go through this sometime????

Linda Holley




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Romance and smoke
Date: 25 Sep 1998 18:09:41 -0400

Aye darlin, that we do.  I am in withdrawl now!!!!!   AAARRRRRGGGGG!!!  I
need at least a lil weekend Ronny for a fix :)  Hopefully going to Coon
Creek in TN in Oct.

love and hugs....

Bear and Mouse
-----Original Message-----


>To all of you that sent your grateful comments on this sight and to me
personally, thank you.   I was really just making some thoughtful comments
on a bad night in my life.  This just seemed to be the place where they
landed.  But one thing nice has come out of this, we have seen more
subscribers open up and say "hello" and get to know each other than before.
This is a sight for historic information, but to know some of the persons
and personalities who are on here has be even more informative than some of
the technical detail we all get into.  It has
>given a chance for others to say their two bits who have never or hardly
been heard from in the past.  It was nice.
>I will drag myself off into the distance and look for that wonderful soul
who likes guns, tipis, and the smell of a good forest fire, and the new dog.
Her name is Jezebel and she is a wanton hussy.  Rolls over for anyone.  And
No, my ex-husband did not leave the dogs in the house to die.  Old age got
them.  But they were mine.  And they went to many a rendezvous with me from
the 1978 Livingston, NAPR event to the Kikapoo tornado disaster a few years
later.  Too bad "some" men are not loving as a good dog.  But with all the
buffalo robes I have,  I am
>warm, cozy and love to snuggle around a good fire on a frosty night in a
warm tipi.  Nothing like it.   Except to have your friends around a fire on
a crystal clear night in the High Uintas or Colorado Mts.  singing some good
songs  and passing the Son of Jug around.  I didn't get to go camping again
this year and am having withdrawal symptoms.   Don't we all go through this
sometime????
>
>Linda Holley
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Romance and smoke
Date: 25 Sep 1998 17:23:18 -0600 (CST)

>I didn't get to go camping again this year and am having withdrawal symptoms.
>Don't we all go >through this sometime????
>
>Linda Holley

We sure do, that's why I keep a fire pit in the yard and pile o' squaw wood
on hand.  Just for those times when only one kind of therapy helps rondy
withdrawl.  I get into my skins and cottons, roast some grub, watch the
smoke rise, and kick back with the dogs (they're anywhere there's food).
It's not the same, but on a quiet night, it'll do.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house(annual meeting and cook out)
Date: 25 Sep 1998 18:36:26 -0400


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I think I have livened of the lists a little.    Have gotten alot of
responces.  At least it is not boring.
Linda

Michael Pierce wrote:

> linda ---if this match making keeps up we may have to review some of my
> single snake eater friends and see if any qualify for you--One chapter of
> the special forces association  holds their only  meeting up close to
> where you live ever october or november in the Ocalla national
> forest---they have a big cook out and camp out there-and fairly close to
> your area---probably a hr or hr and 1/2 drive-----bet we could get you a
> invite to set up your tee--pee and such--  they will have the big
> bondfire one night and memorial to fallen comrads at noon on
> sunday---they have the campgrounds from friday thru sunday---good roads
> to get to it and plenty of space--they had over 200 members there last
> year-----they will be holding the meeting on a camp ground on a nice lake
> and it is beautiful up there.  I hope I am back from making winter meat
> by then---I missed it last year---there will be a lot of  "been there""
> done that" "quite proffessionals" there.  most of the  members of that
> chapter dont like orginization  and formality but they have one of the
> best run picknicks-camp-outs ever----reminds me of roo'ing back in the
> 6o's.
>
> I thank they would appreciate a primitative camp and tee-pee--BTW it is a
> family affair and no one gets out of order--yet there are usually a few
> singles there---some about our age---
>
> I will contact them and see if I can get you a invite if you wish and
> have them send you a info pack--overlay map and directions and
> such---also will start forwarding Jacks saturday morning episal--darn
> fine writeing---he is single and was one of the officers of the
> organization---
>
> contact me off-lineif you want  and I will send you details as i get
> them---BTW---off to st louis about the 5th so will pick up the skins for
> you then and see what we come up with---I know you want the buffilo---may
> see you at the alifi and deliver it or may ship it by snail mail--also
> have 8 or 10 smoke tans that we discussed---
>
> BTW---ELI KUTZKO you interested in a walk about in arizona we hope to go
> out next spring again and go to a Anasazi dwelling with over 200 rooms
> --have some pictures of one of the religious dwellings in that
> area--there is also a lot of petriglips, and pottery chards in the
> area-----it hasent been dug up---cant do any digging---on federal
> ground--but plan on doing some documentation and pictures of the
> area---closest we can get to it is about 15 miles and its a good walk
> in--must carry in everything you need---good water close so dont have a
> problem with that---  we found it about 2 years ago while prospecting in
> the area---found a lot of low grade blue rock in the area will have the
> camper there--probably have to build road again to get in there--contact
> me offline if you are interested---dan and I are big into the anasazi
> culture and such--want to put a article together about it--
>
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:27:34 -0500 Eli Kutzko <[e-mail]>
> writes:
> >> Keep looking and be patient.  I met my fiancee at the NMLRA
> >spring shoot.
> >>
> >> Red Hawk
> >
> >Agreed....  I'm new to the list, so I don't quite fall into the
> >gun-slinging reinactor category.  I was a professional
> >archaeologist for years.  Am now playing around with writing
> >historical fiction dealing with the fur trade (I'm a freelance
> >writer).  I have a man's name given to me by an all male crew I
> >bested at digging holes in the ground many, many seasons ago
> >(keep in mind that I'm 5'6" and 115 lb.).  No one has ever
> >mistaken me for being male in person however.  But being an
> >archaeologist, there are certain things that go with the trade.
> >You spend months living in tents and literally years living in
> >the middle of nowhere making it through the day by your wits.
> >My clothing style can best be described as functional.  If I'm
> >out in the rain, I smell like a mix of leather, smoke, and wet
> >sheep (lots of wool).  I am far more at home in the desert and
> >the mountains than I will ever be a town or city. There is that
> >permanent smoke smell that permeates everything I own.  My
> >library reeks of it because all of my books have done their
> >share of time in that atmosphere.  I helped another woman run an
> >archaeology professional services firm.  It was well known among
> >our friends and colleagues that we had more balls than most men
> >and would take our four-wheel drive trucks places most men
> >wouldn't go. Twelve miles of walking is a nice partial day
> >jaunt. I've been told that I when I get to swearing it would
> >make a sailor on a Turkish freighter blush.  While I don't have
> >any guns, I do have knives that make most men back off....
> >
> >Point of all of this is that I met a fine man a few years ago
> >(oddly enough he worked in NPR at the time -- I don't consider
> >that the most outdoorsy, rough and ready profession) and have
> >been incredibly happily married for a couple of years now.  Men
> >who appreciate good strong women with character are out there.
> >Consider all the sensual smoke scent and hardware to be a weed
> >out factor.  You are getting rid of the ones who aren't going to
> >appreciate you anyway before things get too serious.  Any man
> >who backs off because of all this stuff wouldn't be equal to you
> >in the character and basic personal brawn department either.
> >Keep your eyes open.  They are out there....  as I'm sure all
> >the men on this list will agree.... ;o)
> >
> >Eli
> >
> >
> >~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
> >Eli Kutzko    <[e-mail]>
> >
> >"Just once, I wish we would encounter an alien menace
> >that wasn't immune to bullets."  The Brigader (Dr. Who)
> >
> >
> >
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



--------------C7823296C6BD73777493E335
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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<HTML>
<I>I think I have livened of the lists a little.    Have
gotten alot of responces.  At least it is not boring.</I>
<BR><I>Linda</I>

<P>Michael Pierce wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>linda ---if this match making keeps up we may have
to review some of my
<BR>single snake eater friends and see if any qualify for you--One chapter
of
<BR>the special forces association  holds their only  meeting
up close to
<BR>where you live ever october or november in the Ocalla national
<BR>forest---they have a big cook out and camp out there-and fairly close
to
<BR>your area---probably a hr or hr and 1/2 drive-----bet we could get
you a
<BR>invite to set up your tee--pee and such--  they will have the
big
<BR>bondfire one night and memorial to fallen comrads at noon on
<BR>sunday---they have the campgrounds from friday thru sunday---good roads
<BR>to get to it and plenty of space--they had over 200 members there last
<BR>year-----they will be holding the meeting on a camp ground on a nice
lake
<BR>and it is beautiful up there.  I hope I am back from making winter
meat
<BR>by then---I missed it last year---there will be a lot of  "been
there""
<BR>done that" "quite proffessionals" there.  most of the  members
of that
<BR>chapter dont like orginization  and formality but they have one
of the
<BR>best run picknicks-camp-outs ever----reminds me of roo'ing back in
the
<BR>6o's.

<P>I thank they would appreciate a primitative camp and tee-pee--BTW it
is a
<BR>family affair and no one gets out of order--yet there are usually a
few
<BR>singles there---some about our age---

<P>I will contact them and see if I can get you a invite if you wish and
<BR>have them send you a info pack--overlay map and directions and
<BR>such---also will start forwarding Jacks saturday morning episal--darn
<BR>fine writeing---he is single and was one of the officers of the
<BR>organization---

<P>contact me off-lineif you want  and I will send you details as
i get
<BR>them---BTW---off to st louis about the 5th so will pick up the skins
for
<BR>you then and see what we come up with---I know you want the buffilo---may
<BR>see you at the alifi and deliver it or may ship it by snail mail--also
<BR>have 8 or 10 smoke tans that we discussed---

<P>BTW---ELI KUTZKO you interested in a walk about in arizona we hope to
go
<BR>out next spring again and go to a Anasazi dwelling with over 200 rooms
<BR>--have some pictures of one of the religious dwellings in that
<BR>area--there is also a lot of petriglips, and pottery chards in the
<BR>area-----it hasent been dug up---cant do any digging---on federal
<BR>ground--but plan on doing some documentation and pictures of the
<BR>area---closest we can get to it is about 15 miles and its a good walk
<BR>in--must carry in everything you need---good water close so dont have
a
<BR>problem with that---  we found it about 2 years ago while prospecting
in
<BR>the area---found a lot of low grade blue rock in the area will have
the
<BR>camper there--probably have to build road again to get in there--contact
<BR>me offline if you are interested---dan and I are big into the anasazi
<BR>culture and such--want to put a article together about it--

<P>      "Hawk"
<BR>Michael Pierce
<BR>854 Glenfield Dr.
<BR>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
<BR>1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

<P>On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:27:34 -0500 Eli Kutzko <[e-mail]>
<BR>writes:
<BR>>> Keep looking and be patient.  I met my fiancee at the NMLRA
<BR>>spring shoot.
<BR>>>
<BR>>> Red Hawk
<BR>>
<BR>>Agreed....  I'm new to the list, so I don't quite fall into the
<BR>>gun-slinging reinactor category.  I was a professional
<BR>>archaeologist for years.  Am now playing around with writing
<BR>>historical fiction dealing with the fur trade (I'm a freelance
<BR>>writer).  I have a man's name given to me by an all male crew
I
<BR>>bested at digging holes in the ground many, many seasons ago
<BR>>(keep in mind that I'm 5'6" and 115 lb.).  No one has ever
<BR>>mistaken me for being male in person however.  But being an
<BR>>archaeologist, there are certain things that go with the trade.
<BR>>You spend months living in tents and literally years living in
<BR>>the middle of nowhere making it through the day by your wits.
<BR>>My clothing style can best be described as functional.  If I'm
<BR>>out in the rain, I smell like a mix of leather, smoke, and wet
<BR>>sheep (lots of wool).  I am far more at home in the desert and
<BR>>the mountains than I will ever be a town or city. There is that
<BR>>permanent smoke smell that permeates everything I own.  My
<BR>>library reeks of it because all of my books have done their
<BR>>share of time in that atmosphere.  I helped another woman run
an
<BR>>archaeology professional services firm.  It was well known among
<BR>>our friends and colleagues that we had more balls than most men
<BR>>and would take our four-wheel drive trucks places most men
<BR>>wouldn't go. Twelve miles of walking is a nice partial day
<BR>>jaunt. I've been told that I when I get to swearing it would
<BR>>make a sailor on a Turkish freighter blush.  While I don't have
<BR>>any guns, I do have knives that make most men back off....
<BR>>
<BR>>Point of all of this is that I met a fine man a few years ago
<BR>>(oddly enough he worked in NPR at the time -- I don't consider
<BR>>that the most outdoorsy, rough and ready profession) and have
<BR>>been incredibly happily married for a couple of years now.  Men
<BR>>who appreciate good strong women with character are out there.
<BR>>Consider all the sensual smoke scent and hardware to be a weed
<BR>>out factor.  You are getting rid of the ones who aren't going
to
<BR>>appreciate you anyway before things get too serious.  Any man
<BR>>who backs off because of all this stuff wouldn't be equal to you
<BR>>in the character and basic personal brawn department either.
<BR>>Keep your eyes open.  They are out there....  as I'm sure
all
<BR>>the men on this list will agree.... ;o)
<BR>>
<BR>>Eli
<BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>>~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
<BR>>Eli Kutzko    <[e-mail]>
<BR>>
<BR>>"Just once, I wish we would encounter an alien menace
<BR>>that wasn't immune to bullets."  The Brigader (Dr. Who)
<BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>>

<P>_____________________________________________________________________
<BR>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
<BR>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at <A HREF="http://www.juno.com">http://www.juno.com</A>
<BR>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]</BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

--------------C7823296C6BD73777493E335--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 20:23:05 -0700

Making a couple bedrolls.  Outer layer is 12oz canvas.  Inner layer is
cotton cloth.  When laid open, size is about 60" x 90".  Planning to
stitch three sides so a wool blanket can be slipped inside for those
cold FL nights when it dips below 70 deg.  Either way, it's something
simple to wrap up in with enough length to tuck under our feet.  My
question:  Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing to
repel moisture and yet remain pliable?  I've sampled wax (no good),
linseed oil (soft until it dries two weeks later), and tung oil (hard as
a rock).  I suppose I could Scotchgard or Duck's Back but it just
wouldn't be right.  Any thoughts?

Tom




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 20:25:44 -0400

Tom,
 For your cotton, try Egyption cotton, REAL high thread count, it is usually
used on finer sheets at the pricey end of stores. But you could near
eliminate the canvas, if you wanted. The cotton does a pretty good job
shedding water as is.
Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>Making a couple bedrolls.  Outer layer is 12oz canvas.  Inner layer is
>cotton cloth.  When laid open, size is about 60" x 90".  Planning to
>stitch three sides so a wool blanket can be slipped inside for those
>cold FL nights when it dips below 70 deg.  Either way, it's something
>simple to wrap up in with enough length to tuck under our feet.  My
>question:  Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing to
>repel moisture and yet remain pliable?  I've sampled wax (no good),
>linseed oil (soft until it dries two weeks later), and tung oil (hard as
>a rock).  I suppose I could Scotchgard or Duck's Back but it just
>wouldn't be right.  Any thoughts?
>
>Tom
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 21:39:03 EDT

Tom writes:

> Planning to
>  stitch three sides so a wool blanket can be slipped inside for those
>  cold FL nights when it dips below 70 deg.

Well, the first question that comes to mind is why you would need a bedroll
and all those heavy blankets during a heatwave. <g>  My hardcore AMM buddies
here carry a matchcoat and 1 blanket to below zero and throw the tarp over
their heads to conserve heat.

>  Either way, it's something
>  simple to wrap up in with enough length to tuck under our feet.  My
>  question:  Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing to
>  repel moisture and yet remain pliable?

Canvas is, by its nature, water repellent, if you are using good canvas.  If
you are using a painter's tarp, then it needs to be treated.

Do you want the bottom to repel ground moisture, or do you want the top the
repel rain?  If you want the bottom the repel water, you might consider
painting it with a colonial colored latex paint. (yellow or red ochre, or
black to simulate a tar/turpentine coating like that used on the sea)  This
will waterproof it and still maintain a large degree of flexibility.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 21:50:52 EDT

i have found that stitching up three sides makes it VERY difficult to slide
anything inside including your body  you might try stitching up one long side
and the bottom, then use blanket pins or sharpened thin wooden sticks to close
up the third side after you are in......  YHS.... GunShot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 20:22:57 -0600

I read somewhere that if you heat Linseed Oil until it will melt beeswax,
the combination oil/wax makes a good pliable waterproofing, although I
haven't tried it.

Ron 'Lonewolf' Chamberlain
[e-mail]

----------
>Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing to
> repel moisture and yet remain pliable?  I've sampled wax (no good),
> linseed oil (soft until it dries two weeks later), and tung oil (hard as
> a rock).  I suppose I could Scotchgard or Duck's Back but it just
> wouldn't be right.  Any thoughts?
>
> Tom
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 22:24:37 -0400

CONCURE IN FLORIDA YOU ONLY NEED TO CLOSE UP TWO SIDES THE REST IS
BULL---AND A LOT OF HAND STITCHING----FIND YOURSELF A PIECE OF CANVIS AND
A PONCHO LINER AND GO FOR IT.  ALL YOU NEED IN FLORIDA THATS FOR
SURE---PROBABLY THE CANVIS AND A COTON SHEET WOULD DO JUST AS GOOD---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:50:52 EDT [e-mail] writes:
>i have found that stitching up three sides makes it VERY difficult to
>slide
>anything inside including your body  you might try stitching up one
>long side
>and the bottom, then use blanket pins or sharpened thin wooden sticks
>to close
>up the third side after you are in......  YHS.... GunShot
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 22:21:35 -0400

IF IN FLORIDA WHY IN THE HELL DON'T YOU JUST USE A GROUND CLOTH AND
SOMETHING TO COVER OVER YOU LIKE A TENT--  ALL THE WATERPROOF IS NAUT IF
YOU DONT HAVE A GOOD GROUND COVER ---TAKE THE PREVIOUS ADVISE ABOUT THE
LATEX PAINT AND GO FOR IT---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:39:03 EDT [e-mail] writes:
>Tom writes:
>
>> Planning to
>>  stitch three sides so a wool blanket can be slipped inside for
>those
>>  cold FL nights when it dips below 70 deg.
>
>Well, the first question that comes to mind is why you would need a
>bedroll
>and all those heavy blankets during a heatwave. <g>  My hardcore AMM
>buddies
>here carry a matchcoat and 1 blanket to below zero and throw the tarp
>over
>their heads to conserve heat.
>
>>  Either way, it's something
>>  simple to wrap up in with enough length to tuck under our feet.  My
>>  question:  Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing
>to
>>  repel moisture and yet remain pliable?
>
>Canvas is, by its nature, water repellent, if you are using good
>canvas.  If
>you are using a painter's tarp, then it needs to be treated.
>
>Do you want the bottom to repel ground moisture, or do you want the
>top the
>repel rain?  If you want the bottom the repel water, you might
>consider
>painting it with a colonial colored latex paint. (yellow or red ochre,
>or
>black to simulate a tar/turpentine coating like that used on the sea)
>This
>will waterproof it and still maintain a large degree of flexibility.
>
>OldFox
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Painters Tarps
Date: 25 Sep 1998 20:35:30 -0600

I can't afford a tipi and want one real bad. Would waterproofed painters
tarps be heavy enough to get a couple seasons out of, if sewed into a tipi?
My tarps are 7-8 oz canvas.

Thanks in advance!

Ron


Ron's Idaho Pages
<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/>
Email <[e-mail]>
ICQ #19296844

     \|/
     / \
   /     \
 /    0   \ Lonewolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 23:18:28 -0700

Thanks for your reply. What I meant was to stitch three sides with the thing open
(60 x 90) and then fold it over me. I agree that if it were sewn shut like a
zipped sleeping bag it would be pretty tough to deal with.

Tom

[e-mail] wrote:

> i have found that stitching up three sides makes it VERY difficult to slide
> anything inside including your body  you might try stitching up one long side
> and the bottom, then use blanket pins or sharpened thin wooden sticks to close
> up the third side after you are in......  YHS.... GunShot




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 23:23:56 -0700

Your hardcore buddies probably got more natural insulation than me. -)
Ideally, the bottom would act as a groundcloth and the top would act as a
skycloth.  This stuff's quite a bit heavier than a painter's cloth but it's a
coarse weave and appears rather porous.  I'll give the paint a test for the
bottom.

Tom

[e-mail] wrote:

> Tom writes:
>
> > Planning to
> >  stitch three sides so a wool blanket can be slipped inside for those
> >  cold FL nights when it dips below 70 deg.
>
> Well, the first question that comes to mind is why you would need a bedroll
> and all those heavy blankets during a heatwave. <g>  My hardcore AMM buddies
> here carry a matchcoat and 1 blanket to below zero and throw the tarp over
> their heads to conserve heat.
>
> >  Either way, it's something
> >  simple to wrap up in with enough length to tuck under our feet.  My
> >  question:  Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing to
> >  repel moisture and yet remain pliable?
>
> Canvas is, by its nature, water repellent, if you are using good canvas.  If
> you are using a painter's tarp, then it needs to be treated.
>
> Do you want the bottom to repel ground moisture, or do you want the top the
> repel rain?  If you want the bottom the repel water, you might consider
> painting it with a colonial colored latex paint. (yellow or red ochre, or
> black to simulate a tar/turpentine coating like that used on the sea)  This
> will waterproof it and still maintain a large degree of flexibility.
>
> OldFox




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 23:27:52 -0700

Well, ya know every once in a while there's a nip in the air, even here.
I'm expecting this
thing to serve as groundcloth, bedroll, and shelter all in one, for those
times when a larger shelter isn't in the plan.  Will check out the latex--

Tom



> IF IN FLORIDA WHY DON'T YOU JUST USE A GROUND CLOTH AND SOMETHING TO COVER
> OVER YOU LIKE A TENT--  ALL THE WATERPROOF IS NAUT IF YOU DONT HAVE A GOOD
> GROUND COVER ---TAKE THE PREVIOUS ADVISE ABOUT THE LATEX PAINT AND GO FOR
> IT---
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 23:29:44 -0700

Ron, I suppose there's no harm in trying, and I got the stuff laying about.
I'll give it a test and post back if it looks promising.

Tom

Ron wrote:

> I read somewhere that if you heat Linseed Oil until it will melt beeswax,
> the combination oil/wax makes a good pliable waterproofing, although I
> haven't tried it.
>
> Ron 'Lonewolf' Chamberlain
> [e-mail]
>
> ----------
> >Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing to
> > repel moisture and yet remain pliable?  I've sampled wax (no good),
> > linseed oil (soft until it dries two weeks later), and tung oil (hard as
> > a rock).




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 23:34:56 -0700

The pricey part scares me.  Wouldn't do for mine, but maybe the bride would like
this fancy stuff for hers.  I think the canvas is important, it least on the
bottom to keep the stones and sticks from poking our behinds.

Tom

Dennis Miles wrote:

> Tom,
>  For your cotton, try Egyption cotton, REAL high thread count, it is usually
> used on finer sheets at the pricey end of stores. But you could near
> eliminate the canvas, if you wanted. The cotton does a pretty good job
> shedding water as is.
> Dennis




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 25 Sep 1998 22:09:02 -0700

Properly done linseed and pigment make a great ground cloth, and it is as waterproof
as any treated modern fabric.  The trick is to have good boiled linseed with a
proper drying agent in it. also, dont let it dry in the sun.  Rubbing with a stone
afterwards takes out the stifness.  I hear you can buy them, but I don't know where

Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant.

Sega







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 26 Sep 1998 00:47:04 EDT

oilcloth is available from Panther Primitives, PO 32, Normantown, WV 25267
phone [phone].   works great for bedrolls, diamond flys (trail tarp),
firewood cover, packbasket covers, haversacks, backpack, rain poncho and the
list goes on..........    GunShot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hang in there with your good man!
Date: 26 Sep 1998 00:28:47 -0700 (PDT)

Eli,

Hang in there with your husband.  You never know what might catch his
interest about this pastime of ours.  I've been married to the love of my
life for almost 20 years and she has never really shown a great interest in
camping or Rendezvous.  I made her buckskin dresses, tried to supply the
best and most comfortable lodge and even got 2 of our 3 daughters to go to
Rendezvous, but still she was not interested.

Then about 3 years ago I started riding horses.  At first she said, "Don't
even think about EVER buying a horse."  I loved riding and have bought all
period saddle and tack, but ride a friend's horse which I will soon be
buying.  About 6 months ago, my wife decided to come out to the ranch and
see my horse.  She had a great time and after coming out for the next month
decided she wanted to try riding.  She's since taken lessons and just loves
the horse she was taking lessons on.  The reason I still haven't bought my
horse is that the owner of the horse she was riding decided to sell him and
we were able to work out a deal where I made payments.  That was about 3
months ago and we will soon have him paid off.

The bottom line is last week she told me that after we buy my horse
(hopefully early next year), she would like to go the the AMM National
Rendezvous next year and both of us take our horses.  She is willing to
sleep on the ground and will finally get some use out of the buckskin
dresses I made.  She just wants to be able to ride with me in the Rockies.
Not bad from a woman who doesn't want to go camping!

I'm sure the same will happen with your husband too.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jon Bollin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 26 Sep 1998 00:55:15 -0700

Greetings all,
I've been folowing this string about the use of linseed oil for waterprofing
canvas.
I seem to remember somthing on the AMM list a while back on this.  Someone
said that if you
mix linseed oil with some type of thinner, I belive it was denatured
alcohol, then apply it
to the canvas it will dry faster and it wont stiffen up.  I live right close
to Mexico and buy a canvas that is coated with natural rubber, works great
but dont breath worth a shit. You get all clammy under it during summer rain
and in the winter it tends harden up to crack.  It's great for covering
panniers!

----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
>Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998, 9:47 PM
>

>oilcloth is available from Panther Primitives, PO 32, Normantown, WV 25267
>phone [phone].   works great for bedrolls, diamond flys (trail tarp),
>firewood cover, packbasket covers, haversacks, backpack, rain poncho and the
>list goes on..........    GunShot
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 26 Sep 1998 10:32:28 -0000

I know that the old addage about not storing oily rags was because linseed
oil in contact with cloth can spontaneously ignite.  see
http://www.mhv.net/~dfriedman/arson/spontcom.htm  .  Anyway, this might make
for a REALLY toasty bedroll.

I know that linseed oil and beeswax is a good preservative for iron
blacksmithed goods, and I have bought some military surplus "Impregnite,
Shoe" from a trader who said it was linseed oil and beeswax.  The Impregnite
is for waterproofing shoes.  In a bedroll, the smell would be a bit
annoying, at least at first.

Iron Burner

Tom wrote:

>Ron, I suppose there's no harm in trying, and I got the stuff laying about.
>I'll give it a test and post back if it looks promising.

>Ron wrote:
>
>> I read somewhere that if you heat Linseed Oil until it will melt beeswax,
>> the combination oil/wax makes a good pliable waterproofing, although I
>> haven't tried it.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns in the house
Date: 26 Sep 1998 12:39:01 EDT

Dear Linda

Short of us becoming Muslims or Mormans and you moving in with us (I've always
wanted 2 wives) (Yes, I AM A glutton for punishment)

You just ain't trying hard enough. There are re-enactors of all historic
periods that would just LOVE to have a girl/woman/wife that understood the
"Hobby" thing.

Get your buns on some other lists and visit events (all types) in your
geographic area.  Broaden your horizons.  I played in a honky tonk band for
years, and passed up alot of opportunities because I wouldn't want to
jeopadize (hope i spelt that right)
my marriage , my wife is a buckskinner and that makes her a rare jewel (beside
all her other assets)

OH AND BY THE WAY WE RE-ENACTOR GUYS TEND TO BE A LITTLE SLOW ON THE WOMAN
THING SOMETIMES.  take it easy on 'em.

I wish you the best of luck

John



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 26 Sep 1998 12:13:39 -0500

I'm not AMM and I do not consider myself hardcore,but at home I don't light
the fire until it gets down to the 30's,and in camp usually lay ontop of my
blanket until the temp gets to about 50.
   >Your hardcore buddies probably got more natural insulation than me.
   >-) Ideally, the bottom would act as a groundcloth and the top would
   >act as a skycloth.  This stuff's quite a bit heavier than a
   >painter's cloth but it's a coarse weave and appears rather porous.
   >I'll give the paint a test for the bottom.
   >Tom
   >[e-mail] wrote:
   >> Tom writes:
   >> > Planning to
   >> >  stitch three sides so a wool blanket can be slipped inside for
   >>those  >  cold FL nights when it dips below 70 deg.
   >> Well, the first question that comes to mind is why you would need
   >>a bedroll  and all those heavy blankets during a heatwave. <g>  My
   >>hardcore AMM buddies  here carry a matchcoat and 1 blanket to
   >>below zero and throw the tarp over  their heads to conserve heat.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 26 Sep 1998 15:41:36 EDT

With all due respect, this thing about linseed oil (especially boiled) on a
canvas (cotton) bedroll is kinda scary. I once wrapped the head of a hawk with
a linseed soaked cotton rag, in order to swell the wood and tighten the head,
and when i came back about 12 hours later, the rag was HOT to the touch, and
the HICKORY WOODEN HANDLE WAS BURNED. thank the Lord my shop was still intact.
Linseed oil is extremely combustible, and on COTTON has been known to
spontaneously combust.  if your bedroll combusted in the middle of the night,
with you in it, it might make you warmer than you'd EVER wanna be. think about
it!!!!!!   YHS, Gun Shot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 26 Sep 1998 15:42:41 -0700



[e-mail] wrote:

> . I once wrapped the head of a hawk with
> a linseed soaked cotton rag, in order to swell the wood and tighten the head,
> and when i came back about 12 hours later, the rag was HOT to the touch, and
> the HICKORY WOODEN HANDLE WAS BURNED. thank the Lord my shop was still intact.
> Linseed oil is extremely combustible, and on COTTON has been known to
> spontaneously combust.

  I have had my linseed and pigment oilcloth for over a year, and have never had
any problems.  If I had scrunched it up and put it  in a can when I first made it,
It may have burned.  But when cured the linseed is no longer prone to
spontaneously combust.  It is flammable, but a spark will generally roll off of it
due to the smoothness of the surface.  As for linseed and beeswax, it will burn
even hotter and more readily.  Beeswax and cloth make candles, and we all know how
well they burn.  As for the flammability concern.  Modern fabrics burn too,
sunforger will ignite as well as untreated canvas.  I'll keep my oilcloth, and
just be careful around fire.

Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant.

Sega




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 26 Sep 1998 18:41:59 -0700

Boy, that sure sounds like the makin's for some dramatic dreams!  I guess I'm
not going to need any wool afterall.  This could beat the time I rolled into a
campfire in a down bag (don't ask).

Tom

Glenn Darilek wrote:

> I know that the old addage about not storing oily rags was because linseed
> oil in contact with cloth can spontaneously ignite.  see
> http://www.mhv.net/~dfriedman/arson/spontcom.htm  .  Anyway, this might make
> for a REALLY toasty bedroll.
>
> I know that linseed oil and beeswax is a good preservative for iron
> blacksmithed goods, and I have bought some military surplus "Impregnite,
> Shoe" from a trader who said it was linseed oil and beeswax.  The Impregnite
> is for waterproofing shoes.  In a bedroll, the smell would be a bit
> annoying, at least at first.
>
> Iron Burner
>
> Tom wrote:
>
> >Ron, I suppose there's no harm in trying, and I got the stuff laying about.
> >I'll give it a test and post back if it looks promising.
>
> >Ron wrote:
> >
> >> I read somewhere that if you heat Linseed Oil until it will melt beeswax,
> >> the combination oil/wax makes a good pliable waterproofing, although I
> >> haven't tried it.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels
Date: 26 Sep 1998 19:02:14 -0500

Hawk,
 I've been off line for a while so this post is a little late coming, but
here it is. Always check old gun barrels to see if they are loaded.
Dropping a steel rod down the bore to listen for a clink to determine if it
is loaded is not always a sure thing. I won't go through the whole story,
but I know of one case where a barrel was loaded with a ball bearing. The
man was going to remove the breech plug, it did not want to give up so he
dropped a steel rod down the bore to determine if it was loaded. It hit
bottom with a definite clink so he stuck the breech in his forge to heat it
up some. What happened next was rather spectacular. The thing went off and
the ball bearing bounced off eveything in the shop. When the smoke cleared
old Wally crawled out from under his forge unhurt, but scared damn near to
death.
 One word of caution on a different subject all together.  If you folks
don't have a good surge protector, that includes the modem line, you would
do well to invest in one. Lightning can do wonders for modem.
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll/oil skin
Date: 26 Sep 1998 19:52:11 -0700



[e-mail] wrote:

> With all due respect, this thing about linseed oil (especially boiled) on a
> canvas (cotton) bedroll is kinda scary.

Folks:

I gave this a shot when I first signed on to the list. I'll give it a go again for
the newcomers.

(25 years as a Professional Fire Fighter). Linseed oil soaked rags are dangerous
as a source of spontaneous ignition if the oil soaked cloth is put in an inclosed
space, like a metal can, plastic can or the rags are wrapped up around something
like the Hawk Head. After the oil has dried or cured, the danger is only that of
any combustible material. That is why steel ships burn so well, they have been
coated on the inside and outside with several layers of Paint. Your oil cloth bed
roll will catch fire fairly easily if you bring it into contact with open flame. A
spark won't do it. Probably burn a hole through it but that's about all. Now to
how to make oil cloth.

This recipe works though there are problems with the finished product. The recipe
consists of linseed oil, bee's wax and about 4 to 8 oz. of burnt umber oil paint
as found in your art supply store.

The more bee's wax you use the more flexible the cloth will be. The thinner you
can make the mixture the lighter the cloth will be. In a large coffee can (3 lb.)
fill 1/2 the can full of linseed oil. Add at least one disc of bee's wax that
measures 1" high and 4"-6" wide. Squeeze in the contents of one standard tube of
burnt umber oil paint and bring to a simmer in the safest manner you know. This is
about as dangerous an operation as making candles and the mixture needs to get
that hot. Mix very well and while the mix cools a bit, prepare the cloth for
treatment. After you take the mixture off the heat source and remove to a safe
location, double the volume by adding turpentine, paint thinner, Etc. to thin the
mix down. If you apply full strength it will add quit a bit of weight to the
cloth. It will be heavy enough as it is.

Prepare a flat area covered with a heavy plastic sheet of visquene and lay the
cloth out smoothly no more than 4 thickness' deep. Use a paint roller with medium
nape on a long handle (if available) and pour some of your "barely cool enough to
handle" mixture into a roller pan and thoroughly soak the cloth. Flip the cloth
over if needed to get good penetration. Make sure that you are applying well
mixed  product so you get a good distribution of bee's wax and oil paint.

Most directions I have seen at this point say not to put the treated cloth in the
sun to dry. I have done that here in E. WA and have not had any problem with the
two oil cloths I have made. I pick the cloth up and try to find some place to
drape it so that it will have good air movement and good heat from the sun and so
that it will also drain if it needs to. I usually turn it at least once a day
until it is fairly dry. It will smell like hell for at least two weeks and you
lill not be able to stand being rolled up in it for an even longer time if you do
not get it thoroughly dry. That is why I do it in very sunny weather. It may be a
bit late in the season in some parts of the country to get a good quick drying.

I have made two oil cloths using muslin. Muslin is a bit on the lite side and will
be brittle and tear easily when the cloth is cold and stiff in the winter. Using
stronger material will result in a stronger item but it will also hold more of the
oil and bee's wax and thus be heavier. 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other.
Another trait that you need to consider is that the cloth is quit moisture proof
and  will tend to build up a bit of condensation on the inside if you use it as a
bed roll. I always use a wool blanket so though there is a bit of moisture on the
inside in the morning, it isn't really that big a deal.

I will close this out now before this darned machine freezes up on me and I loose
the whole thing. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: Vermillion
Date: 26 Sep 1998 23:13:08 -0600

I need some feed back on American and Chinese vermillion. I know some about
both  and its uses by Indians. Question is what other uses did it have?
Where does it come from?

How about blue Indigo, I think it comes from a plant and that people dyed
their clothes with it. Indians used it some. Want to know more

Allan, do you have any infor on this

Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion
Date: 27 Sep 1998 09:48:41 EDT




Blue indigo (Wild blue indigo) grows around here and some people dig the roots
as they still have a value for making indigo ink.  It's a real common plant.
This isn't much but I hope it helps.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion
Date: 27 Sep 1998 10:01:22 EDT

In what general geographical location does indigo grow.  I am in the midwest
and I do not know if it is here.  Does it have a botanical name that you know
of?

Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: romance
Date: 27 Sep 1998 09:29:25 -0500

nuts about voos! She's also a killer hawk thrower!
BTW, I'm setting up a maillist for native reenactors to discuss
makeup,special effects(slit ears,etc) history,etc. I'll let ya know when
it's up and running.
So, fellas you see not all shaved head pierced nosed people are young skirt
chasing punks after our daughters,I have 7 grandchildren and still fit your
description of a punk!
    There's ROMANCE in
   >the air. I think it's kind of funny that people are hitting on each
   >other over a mountain man chat line. I do admit it, it is a great
   >place for a young teenager like me to pick up some "honnies", but
   >it's definitely not the only reason I go to reenactments. I have
   >met several of my girlfriends at these things, but instead of the
   >opening lines like "hi" or "where are you from" it's usually "man,
   >this must suck staying here for the weekend", "is your nose and
   >ears really pierced?" or a really popular one is "do you have
   >anything under that?"(I'm referring to my breech clout or "butt
   >flap"). That's all I have to say about that. the roach that I have
   >was made to be a dancers roach. it's a small 7 in. base, but it
   >works perfectly when a were it on the back of my head as a worriers
   >roach. Do you know where I can get simulated wampum. If so, how
   >much would it cost me. Right now my peace medallion is suspended
   >from a red piece of trade ribbon and I want to suspend it from a
   >couple strands of wampum.
   >your worrier wannabe,
   >David Fritsch

Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tanning
Date: 27 Sep 1998 12:22:52 -0700

>My hubby and I are tanning hides in our usual fasion.  However, since I've
>been cruising the information superhighway, I discovered a method that
>requires pre-smoking the hides.  In otherwords, after fleshing, dehairing,
>braining, stretching and drying the hide, it is smoked, brained again,
>worked again, and smoked again.
>
>Has anyone else tried this twice-smoked method?  How did it work?
>
>This method by Joseph and Virginia Dinsmore is found on the NativeTech.com
>web site.
>
>Thanks!
>[e-mail]

Hello,I read the letter to this site.I am glad that,and I hope that they
try this way because once you do you usually dont go back.I only wanted to
point out that the second smoking is for when the hide is softened out.If
you look at the method in this way ,when a white hide that is soft and
smoked gets wet , it requires very little stretching to soften it back up
so why not smoke a prestretched hide to get the same results.Prestretching
the hides does nothing more than to allow the smoke to penetrate futher
into the hide.You are not trying to soften the hide at the prestretching
stage just open the fibers up .If you would like to know more contact us at
[e-mail]
Joe and Longtrail





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion
Date: 27 Sep 1998 16:06:16 EDT

Wild Bllue Indigo (Blue Wildindigo)  (Baptisia australis)
According to my books it grows throughout the plains and prairies of the
United States.
I live in eastern OKla. and here it's very common allthough most people don't
know what it is.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Phil Petersen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tanning
Date: 27 Sep 1998 15:53:40 -0500

You can count on what Joe and Longtrail advise.  The only problem I had was
not taking the cotton out of my ears and putting it in my mouth.  Just
finished pre streching two hides using their method.  I have had very good
luck brain tanning over the last few weeks using the steps and revised steps
they offer.   I know Longtrail will be glad to hear that one of there
students (me) has done some really good hides as of late.

Grasshoppa
-----Original Message-----


>>My hubby and I are tanning hides in our usual fasion.  However, since I've
>>been cruising the information superhighway, I discovered a method that
>>requires pre-smoking the hides.  In otherwords, after fleshing, dehairing,
>>braining, stretching and drying the hide, it is smoked, brained again,
>>worked again, and smoked again.
>>
>>Has anyone else tried this twice-smoked method?  How did it work?
>>
>>This method by Joseph and Virginia Dinsmore is found on the NativeTech.com
>>web site.
>>
>>Thanks!
>>[e-mail]
>
>Hello,I read the letter to this site.I am glad that,and I hope that they
>try this way because once you do you usually dont go back.I only wanted to
>point out that the second smoking is for when the hide is softened out.If
>you look at the method in this way ,when a white hide that is soft and
>smoked gets wet , it requires very little stretching to soften it back up
>so why not smoke a prestretched hide to get the same results.Prestretching
>the hides does nothing more than to allow the smoke to penetrate futher
>into the hide.You are not trying to soften the hide at the prestretching
>stage just open the fibers up .If you would like to know more contact us at
>[e-mail]
>Joe and Longtrail
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 27 Sep 1998 17:24:04 EDT

While we are on the subject of brain tan.  I am looking for a good source to
buy a couple of hides to make a pair of eastern style leggings.  I have
received a price list from Wes Housler.  Has anyone had any experience with
his hides?  Who are others that you would recommend?  When it comes to
spending $200+ on a couple of deer hides I want to make sure that I get the
best quality I can.  Thanks in advance for all the help.

Grant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 27 Sep 1998 17:38:55 EDT

Check these links: All are reputable sources.....
<A HREF="http://www.onpages.com/absaroka">
Absaroka Western Designs</A>   <A HREF="http://www.hideandfur.com/">Moscow
Hide and Fur
 </A><A HREF="http://www.flash.net/~unicom/hungry/hungry1.htm">Deer Hides /
Hunters For The Hungry</A>
Lietzau Taxidermy
PO Box 12, Cosmos, MN 56228. [phone]
elkhide, Furs and hides,



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 27 Sep 1998 15:39:08 -0700

Grant:

I would highly recommend the hides of my friend Mike "Dirty Shirt"  Rider. He is
at 2263 Gold Creek Ridge Rd. , Sandpoint Id. 83864. Give him a call at (208)
265-4862 and tell him Capt. Lahti sent ya. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> While we are on the subject of brain tan.  I am looking for a good source to
> buy a couple of hides to make a pair of eastern style leggings.  I have
> received a price list from Wes Housler.  Has anyone had any experience with
> his hides?  Who are others that you would recommend?  When it comes to
> spending $200+ on a couple of deer hides I want to make sure that I get the
> best quality I can.  Thanks in advance for all the help.
>
> Grant






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 27 Sep 1998 20:56:54 -0400

I have known Wess for over 30 years.  He was real young and so was I.  His brain
tanning is very good and the prices are reasonable.  If you do not like what you
see he will take it back with no questions.  I have several of his Elk and
deer.  One could have been broken down more....sending it back.  But tell him
what you want and be tries to comply.  But may need a swift kick in the butt to
remind him every so often.
The others mentioned are also familiar to me and will fit your needs.  Are you
going to do a dark smoke on the hide for the Eastern look or black and or
red????  Love to see a man in good looking leggings and some good quill work at
the knees.  Was that a sexist statement?

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

> While we are on the subject of brain tan.  I am looking for a good source to
> buy a couple of hides to make a pair of eastern style leggings.  I have
> received a price list from Wes Housler.  Has anyone had any experience with
> his hides?  Who are others that you would recommend?  When it comes to
> spending $200+ on a couple of deer hides I want to make sure that I get the
> best quality I can.  Thanks in advance for all the help.
>
> Grant






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Painters Tarps
Date: 27 Sep 1998 20:50:47 EDT

this is not period but there was a fairly famous tipi here in new york city
for a while.

the homeless people that used to live by the side of the manhattan bridge
built a tipi out of old mail sacks.  I know it probably wouldn't go over at
rendezvous, but maybe you could turn them inside out.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 27 Sep 1998 21:16:41 EDT

If it was a sexist statement, I didn't read it that way.  Anyhow, I am
interested in your comments about the dark smoke or dyed leggings.  I have not
found any good resources (can't say that I have looked THAT hard) to research
leggings.  I understand the design and can make a pair I am sure, but as for
what is exactly correct for what group and area I am not sure.  Any help would
be much appreciated.

Grant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 27 Sep 1998 20:01:45 -0600

Wes has good hides another good tanner is
Dave Bethke
American Falls, Id 83211
3149 Raft Rd
208-226-2709

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: Vermillion, Indigo
Date: 27 Sep 1998 20:04:45 -0600

But where can I get some blue indigo, and any information on vermillion
Thanks in advance
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: DYES : Vermillion and Indigo...
Date: 27 Sep 1998 22:07:16 EDT

Gary, (Ground Afire) Somebody on the AMM e-mail list has asked about the
botanical and common names for Blue Indigo and Vermillion, and the range o=
f
where each grows.  Any help?  Thanks.  R.

 Note to the List: It helps to know a botanist,  LOL=099/27/98 Sunday

=09I grow and know well two dye plants that call themselves Indigo...here =
are
the scientific names of the two most often used species:

BAPTISIA tinctoria- =93Wild Indigo=94 4=92    dye plant

INDIGOFERA tinctoria- =93Blue indigo=94     dye plant

=09There are a number of other species of both Baptisia and Indigofera tha=
t make
dye, but these are the most common.      Also, blue dye was most popularly
made from another plant ISATIS tinctoria- =93Woad=94...and others.     Bap=
tisia
ranges from the eastern USA, Mass to Florida and west to Minn.
Indigofera was grown throughout the colonies and there is a fascinating
history of this plant as a valuable cash crop.

=09Vermillion is a variety of mercuric sulphide, HgS, and was prepared by
subliming the black sulfide obtained on heating mercury with sulphur.     =
I
don=92t know the date when this process was discovered.
=09It produces a brilliant scarlet, very heavy solid which when finely gro=
und
makes a beautiful and permanent pigment.        It was also painted on shi=
p
bottoms to help prevent fouling.     I have a lot more information on all =
of
this if you need it...let me know.
=09I still haven=92t gotten on any AMM or RDV lists yet and perhaps when y=
ou get
time could you make me some =93go to=94 lists?
=09I hope this helps...
Gary
=09=09


=09=09




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion, Indigo
Date: 27 Sep 1998 22:36:54 EDT

Joe writes:

> But where can I get some blue indigo, and any information on vermillion

Joe,
There is a mailing list called NaturalDyes which deals with all aspects of
using natural materials for dyeing.  If you are interested, contact me off-
list and I will send you the instructions to subscibe.  It is a new list and
the volume is still very low.

The topic of vermillion recently came up there.  True vermillion, also known
as cinnabar, is a mercury compound that is seldom used anymore because of it's
toxicity characteristics.  A web search using the key word "cinnabar" might
turn up some information on it.  Vermillion is often erroneously used to
denote red ochre, but the two compounds are very different.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion, Indigo
Date: 27 Sep 1998 22:40:09 EDT

cinnabar is also a mineral used by the asians for carving into beads, statues,
boxes,etc



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: romance I had to forward this to the list! Now I think I
Date: 27 Sep 1998 23:33:39 -0400

dave make your own wampum---contact me offline and i will give you
instructions---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion
Date: 27 Sep 1998 23:42:12 -0400

trapperjoe what does it look like-in what area does it grow-----ken is it
common in arkansas---do you know what it looks like maby during hunting
season we can find it---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:06:16 EDT [e-mail] writes:
>Wild Bllue Indigo (Blue Wildindigo)  (Baptisia australis)
>According to my books it grows throughout the plains and prairies of
>the
>United States.
>I live in eastern OKla. and here it's very common allthough most
>people don't
>know what it is.
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 27 Sep 1998 23:47:27 -0400

200+ is out of my budget---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:24:04 EDT [e-mail] writes:
>While we are on the subject of brain tan.  I am looking for a good
>source to
>buy a couple of hides to make a pair of eastern style leggings.  I
>have
>received a price list from Wes Housler.  Has anyone had any experience
>with
>his hides?  Who are others that you would recommend?  When it comes to
>spending $200+ on a couple of deer hides I want to make sure that I
>get the
>best quality I can.  Thanks in advance for all the help.
>
>Grant
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 27 Sep 1998 23:52:44 -0400

hell no---and art form is a art form---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:56:54 -0400 Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
writes:
>I have known Wess for over 30 years.  He was real young and so was I.
>His brain
>tanning is very good and the prices are reasonable.  If you do not
>like what you
>see he will take it back with no questions.  I have several of his Elk
>and
>deer.  One could have been broken down more....sending it back.  But
>tell him
>what you want and be tries to comply.  But may need a swift kick in
>the butt to
>remind him every so often.
>The others mentioned are also familiar to me and will fit your needs.
>Are you
>going to do a dark smoke on the hide for the Eastern look or black and
>or
>red????  Love to see a man in good looking leggings and some good
>quill work at
>the knees.  Was that a sexist statement?
>
>Linda Holley
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> While we are on the subject of brain tan.  I am looking for a good
>source to
>> buy a couple of hides to make a pair of eastern style leggings.  I
>have
>> received a price list from Wes Housler.  Has anyone had any
>experience with
>> his hides?  Who are others that you would recommend?  When it comes
>to
>> spending $200+ on a couple of deer hides I want to make sure that I
>get the
>> best quality I can.  Thanks in advance for all the help.
>>
>> Grant
>
>
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels
Date: 27 Sep 1998 23:22:36 -0400

bud---
i never check a gun that way--i always check for the length the ramrod
goes down the barrel---if it isnt the same length as the end of the
barrel to the breach or the drum then i consider it loaded---I restore 15
to 20 guns a year and i get about 1/2 of them in the shop that are
loaded--so i fully understand and know the problem---even got one in from
a customer that took it hunting and left it loaded for over 2 years---I
popped the breach and wal''llla there was powder and ball---luckey i
didn't use heat---now i consider all of them loaded until i can get air
out of the nipple or the drum----
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:02:14 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hawk,
> I've been off line for a while so this post is a little late coming,
>but
>here it is. Always check old gun barrels to see if they are loaded.
>Dropping a steel rod down the bore to listen for a clink to determine
>if it
>is loaded is not always a sure thing. I won't go through the whole
>story,
>but I know of one case where a barrel was loaded with a ball bearing.
>The
>man was going to remove the breech plug, it did not want to give up so
>he
>dropped a steel rod down the bore to determine if it was loaded. It
>hit
>bottom with a definite clink so he stuck the breech in his forge to
>heat it
>up some. What happened next was rather spectacular. The thing went off
>and
>the ball bearing bounced off eveything in the shop. When the smoke
>cleared
>old Wally crawled out from under his forge unhurt, but scared damn
>near to
>death.
> One word of caution on a different subject all together.  If you
>folks
>don't have a good surge protector, that includes the modem line, you
>would
>do well to invest in one. Lightning can do wonders for modem.
>Pendleton
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll/oil skin
Date: 27 Sep 1998 23:29:33 -0400

good input cpt lati.... and yes it does work if it is done right---P>S>
read  instructions it works-----
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:52:11 -0700 Roger Lahti <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> With all due respect, this thing about linseed oil (especially
>boiled) on a
>> canvas (cotton) bedroll is kinda scary.
>
>Folks:
>
>I gave this a shot when I first signed on to the list. I'll give it a
>go again for
>the newcomers.
>
>(25 years as a Professional Fire Fighter). Linseed oil soaked rags are
>dangerous
>as a source of spontaneous ignition if the oil soaked cloth is put in
>an inclosed
>space, like a metal can, plastic can or the rags are wrapped up around
>something
>like the Hawk Head. After the oil has dried or cured, the danger is
>only that of
>any combustible material. That is why steel ships burn so well, they
>have been
>coated on the inside and outside with several layers of Paint. Your
>oil cloth bed
>roll will catch fire fairly easily if you bring it into contact with
>open flame. A
>spark won't do it. Probably burn a hole through it but that's about
>all. Now to
>how to make oil cloth.
>
>This recipe works though there are problems with the finished product.
>The recipe
>consists of linseed oil, bee's wax and about 4 to 8 oz. of burnt umber
>oil paint
>as found in your art supply store.
>
>The more bee's wax you use the more flexible the cloth will be. The
>thinner you
>can make the mixture the lighter the cloth will be. In a large coffee
>can (3 lb.)
>fill 1/2 the can full of linseed oil. Add at least one disc of bee's
>wax that
>measures 1" high and 4"-6" wide. Squeeze in the contents of one
>standard tube of
>burnt umber oil paint and bring to a simmer in the safest manner you
>know. This is
>about as dangerous an operation as making candles and the mixture
>needs to get
>that hot. Mix very well and while the mix cools a bit, prepare the
>cloth for
>treatment. After you take the mixture off the heat source and remove
>to a safe
>location, double the volume by adding turpentine, paint thinner, Etc.
>to thin the
>mix down. If you apply full strength it will add quit a bit of weight
>to the
>cloth. It will be heavy enough as it is.
>
>Prepare a flat area covered with a heavy plastic sheet of visquene and
>lay the
>cloth out smoothly no more than 4 thickness' deep. Use a paint roller
>with medium
>nape on a long handle (if available) and pour some of your "barely
>cool enough to
>handle" mixture into a roller pan and thoroughly soak the cloth. Flip
>the cloth
>over if needed to get good penetration. Make sure that you are
>applying well
>mixed  product so you get a good distribution of bee's wax and oil
>paint.
>
>Most directions I have seen at this point say not to put the treated
>cloth in the
>sun to dry. I have done that here in E. WA and have not had any
>problem with the
>two oil cloths I have made. I pick the cloth up and try to find some
>place to
>drape it so that it will have good air movement and good heat from the
>sun and so
>that it will also drain if it needs to. I usually turn it at least
>once a day
>until it is fairly dry. It will smell like hell for at least two weeks
>and you
>lill not be able to stand being rolled up in it for an even longer
>time if you do
>not get it thoroughly dry. That is why I do it in very sunny weather.
>It may be a
>bit late in the season in some parts of the country to get a good
>quick drying.
>
>I have made two oil cloths using muslin. Muslin is a bit on the lite
>side and will
>be brittle and tear easily when the cloth is cold and stiff in the
>winter. Using
>stronger material will result in a stronger item but it will also hold
>more of the
>oil and bee's wax and thus be heavier. 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the
>other.
>Another trait that you need to consider is that the cloth is quit
>moisture proof
>and  will tend to build up a bit of condensation on the inside if you
>use it as a
>bed roll. I always use a wool blanket so though there is a bit of
>moisture on the
>inside in the morning, it isn't really that big a deal.
>
>I will close this out now before this darned machine freezes up on me
>and I loose
>the whole thing. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. I
>remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 28 Sep 1998 06:43:05 EDT

Grant

Take a look at "Indian Clothing of the Great Lakes" by Cheryl Hartman.

Red Hawk
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 28 Sep 1998 05:41:09 -0700 (PDT)

Try adding Tie Ribbons, with a 4" overlap. like on the flaps of your
tent. Then you can untie it and use it like a regular blanket.



---"Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your reply. What I meant was to stitch three sides with
the thing open
> (60 x 90) and then fold it over me. I agree that if it were sewn
shut like a
> zipped sleeping bag it would be pretty tough to deal with.
>
> Tom
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > i have found that stitching up three sides makes it VERY difficult
to slide
> > anything inside including your body  you might try stitching up
one long side
> > and the bottom, then use blanket pins or sharpened thin wooden
sticks to close
> > up the third side after you are in......  YHS.... GunShot
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 28 Sep 1998 05:43:19 -0700 (PDT)

A trick we used to use when I was a kid (3 days before dirt). Wash
yore convas in hot water with a 1/2 cup of alum per gallon of water.
Will shrink the weave of yore canvas and make it more water repellent.



---"Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Making a couple bedrolls.  Outer layer is 12oz canvas.  Inner layer is
> cotton cloth.  When laid open, size is about 60" x 90".  Planning to
> stitch three sides so a wool blanket can be slipped inside for those
> cold FL nights when it dips below 70 deg.  Either way, it's something
> simple to wrap up in with enough length to tuck under our feet.  My
> question:  Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing to
> repel moisture and yet remain pliable?  I've sampled wax (no good),
> linseed oil (soft until it dries two weeks later), and tung oil
(hard as
> a rock).  I suppose I could Scotchgard or Duck's Back but it just
> wouldn't be right.  Any thoughts?
>
> Tom
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion, Indigo
Date: 28 Sep 1998 10:15:26 EDT

Send me your address and I'll try to find you some blue indigo.  Its late in
the year for it to be found.  In late summer the tops turn gray and the seed
pods turn black.  The plant breaks off at the base and just blows around.  You
need the roots.  How much do you want?
        TrapR Joe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 28 Sep 1998 10:20:02 EDT

I saw where Wooden Hawk has brain tanned buck skin at $14.00 a Foot.  You can
reach him at 3903 Mullins Lane, Dallas, TX 75227-4752  Or Call 214-381-5850
If he isn't at a rendezvous some where.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 28 Sep 1998 10:26:31 EDT

I see lots on this but, when I was a kid we made our bed rolls simply by tri-
folding our blankets, then tucking the bottom under.  You need twice as much
blanket under you to keep from loosing heat into the ground.   With the tri
fold with the two loose ends under you, your body weight keeps it from coming
unfolded during the night.  Even in below zero weather you still need twice
the amount of cover under you.  I kept warm this way for years in all kinds of
weather.

                TrapR Joe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: vermillion, bed rolls
Date: 28 Sep 1998 09:04:10 +0100

On bed rolls:  My current favorite bedding, at
least when I have to carry it all myself, is a
pair of 3 point blankets.
Wes Housler sells un-torn pairs of 3-point
blankets that are woven in Europe.  They are just
about the 19th century 3-point size: two complete
blankets woven in one piece end to end, just like
in the old days. The blanket material is thick and
high quality.  Come in white with black stripe at
each end or red with same.  This is the first time
that un-torn pairs have been available in many
many years, and in the most common 19th century
white w/ black bars pattern.  Fold them in half so
that you have two thicknesses, then in half again
on the long side.  You then have a nice blanket
envelope and you can put any number of layers
above or below you.

On vermillion, don't know what else to add, Joe,
that hasn't been stated about what vermillion is.
It has not been available in this country for a
long time because of its toxicity.  For a quick
reference on vermillion in the trade see Hanson,
Charles.  "A Paper of Vermilion."  Mus. Fur Trade
Quarterly, Vol. 7 No. 3 (Fall 1971):  Phillips,
E.M.  "The Long Story of Vermilion in the Fur
Trade."  Mus. Fur Trade Quarterly Vol. 31 No. 1
(Spring 1995).  An interesting aspect of the trade
was how it was shipped, in a variety of
containers, the most familiar being "papers" or
small folded paper packets.  Also, however, an
apparently common packing was in small leather
pouches in 1/4 lb. lots.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DYES : Vermillion and Indigo...
Date: 28 Sep 1998 09:01:46 -0600

As I present history talks to groups around Wyoming each year, I carry many
props with me pertaining to the fur trade and Northern Plains Indians. I
have some blue indigo I bought from Ray Glazner and some Chinese Vermillion
from who knows where. had it along time. I would like any additional
information on these two items to add to my libary
Thanks
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 28 Sep 1998 11:06:15 -0400

the tie ribbons work real good should be about 10 or 12 in long so that
you can use it for other things than a bed roll---there was a posting a
while back on how to install---I like marbles or small smooth round
rocks---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 05:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Try adding Tie Ribbons, with a 4" overlap. like on the flaps of your
>tent. Then you can untie it and use it like a regular blanket.
>
>
>
>---"Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for your reply. What I meant was to stitch three sides with
>the thing open
>> (60 x 90) and then fold it over me. I agree that if it were sewn
>shut like a
>> zipped sleeping bag it would be pretty tough to deal with.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> [e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> > i have found that stitching up three sides makes it VERY difficult
>to slide
>> > anything inside including your body  you might try stitching up
>one long side
>> > and the bottom, then use blanket pins or sharpened thin wooden
>sticks to close
>> > up the third side after you are in......  YHS.... GunShot
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 28 Sep 1998 10:52:22 -0400

THOMAS---

buy a box of 20 mule team borax and mix with 5 gal of water soak the
canvis in it till it penitrates thru and thru then take out and dont rign
out but let air dry---will make the canvis fire retardant, semi-water
repelant, SOME SHRINKAGE ON NEW CANVIS  and also will help to keep
insects from being around it---the borax does not smell and it works
almost as goos as all the other things that you have been instructed to
do---borax has been used since the early 1800 to keep insects from
damageing cloth and can be totally washed out if desires---if you have a
light white film on the canvis then take a broom and broom it off and it
wont heart anything---BTW 20 mule team borex only costs about 2 bucks a
box----It can be found in most grocery stores in the cleaning
department--  can be sprinkeled inside a tee pee to help keep insect
critters from coming in and sleeping with you---flea's and chiggers---and
is also good to sprinkle in carpet and broom in and vacuum up to keep
fleas off pets and out of your house---it is non toxic to humans and to
animals---and if the canvis gets dirty helps to clean it--- then redoo
the process---this will last about a season and can be redone anytime you
feel you are getting too much moisture thru the canvis---have done this
to target canvis and it works well as a moisture deturant---also helps to
keep mold off.   BTW use hot water and you will increase the shrinkage
and add to the sealing effect---all of these other additives and such
make me nurvous and don't feel i need to have soaking into my body along
with the bad smell it normally produces---

try this and see if it works for you---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 05:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Sam Keller <[e-mail]>
writes:
>A trick we used to use when I was a kid (3 days before dirt). Wash
>yore convas in hot water with a 1/2 cup of alum per gallon of water.
>Will shrink the weave of yore canvas and make it more water repellent.
>
>
>
>---"Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>> Making a couple bedrolls.  Outer layer is 12oz canvas.  Inner layer
>is
>> cotton cloth.  When laid open, size is about 60" x 90".  Planning to
>> stitch three sides so a wool blanket can be slipped inside for those
>> cold FL nights when it dips below 70 deg.  Either way, it's
>something
>> simple to wrap up in with enough length to tuck under our feet.  My
>> question:  Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing
>to
>> repel moisture and yet remain pliable?  I've sampled wax (no good),
>> linseed oil (soft until it dries two weeks later), and tung oil
>(hard as
>> a rock).  I suppose I could Scotchgard or Duck's Back but it just
>> wouldn't be right.  Any thoughts?
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 28 Sep 1998 11:22:42 -0400

I sorta cheated.... I bought the Bed Roll sleeping bag from Panther.  Washed
it in HOT water (added boiling water from stove to washer) and use 2, 3 pt
blankets.  I fold them both in half and slide them into the bag.  Then I
crawl in and can use 1 or 2 layers for the top, depending on how cold it
gets.  Works good.....

SeanBear
Addison Miller
Naples, FL





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion, Indigo
Date: 28 Sep 1998 09:42:46 -0600

Please send to
Joe Brandl
PO Box 777
1416 Warm Springs Drive
Dubois, WY 82513
307-455-2440

I donot know how much one plant will produce, but receiving several plants
would be great
THanks
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 28 Sep 1998 17:01:47 -0500

Washtahay-
    first off, let me apologize for the delay in getting back to this.  As far
as I have heard, we had NO entries.  I don't think anyone really expected
any.  Obviously, this doesn't mean all of the fur traders, trappers, and
n'er-do-wells were running around without a hunting pouch--it just goes to
show how hard it can be to document something we KNOW was in common use.
    Ah, well...
LongWalker c. du B.
At 09:49 AM 8/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Washtahay-
>    We have our judges-John Kramer, Hawk, and myself (LongWalker c. du B).
>The prize pool has grown to a rum horn, horn cup, a pre-1840 large cent,
>and a hand made turkey call.  Here are the rules:
>    We want to locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having
>been in use on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date
>of 1830.  Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the
>Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the St
>Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about the
>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
>    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been in
>use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates, for
>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported by
>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp 74-75
>of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply trains
>to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in the
>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The folks on the
>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate it
>for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting documentation.
>    If you find the bag, submit the information to me directly, or to the
>list.  If you get in under the deadline with preliminary information and it
>takes a while for the judges' committee to reach a decision, you still win
>if we can agree the bag meets the criteria.
>    Deadline for submission is 7 September 1998.
>
>Let the hunt begin!
>
>LongWalker c. du B., tilter at windmills, and occasional champion of lost
>causes
>
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion, Indigo
Date: 28 Sep 1998 20:00:47 -0400

If you go the the Books a million and that other big book store, look in the
magazines or even book on fabric weaving and dying.  There is usually, in the
back pages, people who sell these natural dyes including Cochineal for dying
leggings red.  Little dead bugs make a great dye.  I would send you the address
but I am not at a place to get to my books.  Will look these up and send
later.  Also check the Wooden Hamlet Designs that sells silk ribbons.  They use
natural dyes.

Linda Holley

Joe Brandl wrote:

> But where can I get some blue indigo, and any information on vermillion
> Thanks in advance
> Joe
>
> Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
> Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
> Write for custom tanning prices
> We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
> hair on robes
> Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
> check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels
Date: 28 Sep 1998 19:25:10 -0500

Hawk,
  I sure wasn't trying to tell you how to do your business. Just thought
that story was worth relating. Old Wally and March Coover started playing
with muzzle loaders shortly after World War II. At that time they could not
get new barrels, so they had to use and sometimes rework old original
barrels. Surprising enough many of their barrels came from the scrap yard.
They have told me that many times they would buy a rifle [ which at that
time could be bought for only a few dollars] just to get a useable nipple
since they did not have the equipment to make them and no one was marketing
such goods. Many of those old barrels were still loaded and the one I was
refering to went off even tho it had spent years in a scrap yard out in the
weather.
  These two gentlemen have been a absolute wealth of information for many
of us in the North Texas area. They worked partime for a antique gun dealer
in Dallas begining in the early sixties, restoring guns. Consequently they
have handled more original guns over the years than most of us will ever
see in a lifetime. There is hardly a style of gun you can mention that one
of them has not seen up close. Sadly March Coover passed away earlier this
year. He will be sorely missed.
  I do envy you sir. I dearly wish I had the skill and the opportunity to
the work that you apparently do.
Pendleton
----------
> From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels
> Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 10:22 PM
>
> bud---
> i never check a gun that way--i always check for the length the ramrod
> goes down the barrel---if it isnt the same length as the end of the
> barrel to the breach or the drum then i consider it loaded---I restore 15
> to 20 guns a year and i get about 1/2 of them in the shop that are
> loaded--so i fully understand and know the problem---even got one in from
> a customer that took it hunting and left it loaded for over 2 years---I
> popped the breach and wal''llla there was powder and ball---luckey i
> didn't use heat---now i consider all of them loaded until i can get air
> out of the nipple or the drum----
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:02:14 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton"
> <[e-mail]> writes:
> >Hawk,
> > I've been off line for a while so this post is a little late coming,
> >but
> >here it is. Always check old gun barrels to see if they are loaded.
> >Dropping a steel rod down the bore to listen for a clink to determine
> >if it
> >is loaded is not always a sure thing. I won't go through the whole
> >story,
> >but I know of one case where a barrel was loaded with a ball bearing.
> >The
> >man was going to remove the breech plug, it did not want to give up so
> >he
> >dropped a steel rod down the bore to determine if it was loaded. It
> >hit
> >bottom with a definite clink so he stuck the breech in his forge to
> >heat it
> >up some. What happened next was rather spectacular. The thing went off
> >and
> >the ball bearing bounced off eveything in the shop. When the smoke
> >cleared
> >old Wally crawled out from under his forge unhurt, but scared damn
> >near to
> >death.
> > One word of caution on a different subject all together.  If you
> >folks
> >don't have a good surge protector, that includes the modem line, you
> >would
> >do well to invest in one. Lightning can do wonders for modem.
> >Pendleton
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels
Date: 28 Sep 1998 19:13:56 -0600

Pendleton,
For years before World War II, original muzzleloaders were from Francis
Bannerman & Sons, Established 1865 at the foot of Storm Mountain a few
miles north of West Point, NY.

They purchased weapons and equipage from most governments around the world
as new ones replaced the old gun, sword or clothing of that army. My
relations before World War II would by good working perc.or flint guns in
good condition for under $ 5.00 a piece, if buying more than 6 there was a
discount on top of that. Henrys, '73 Winchester were more, in the $10-12
range, but you got a box of shells with the purchase.

In 1926 my father picked up a good Civilian Model Spencer for $8.00 and
Bannerman gave him four boxes of shells, by 1940 the same gun was $25.00
and the shells were $3.00 a box, by 1960 the same gun was $125.00 and
shells were $3.00 a piece. Today the same gun is $1200.00 and I've seen
shells going for $15.00 a piece.

This only one example of a weapon, parts were available for 50 years before
World War II, just had to know were to go for muzzleloading supplies,
powder was a different story. But as you say many were as is picked up from
a battle site, stored and years later found to be still loaded.

I was very young and had a chance to go to Bannerman Island once, there
were rows of rifles a 100 yards long and ten rows deep, same with swords,
pistols, cannons and other weapons. Neat suits of armor, you name ite they
had it, this was in 1948.

This was the good stuff, the barrels, locks and misc. gun parts were in
another area the covered a football field, you see there were parts, again
had to know who and where to go.

Buck
----------
> From: yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels
> Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 6:25 PM
>
> Hawk,
>   I sure wasn't trying to tell you how to do your business. Just thought
> that story was worth relating. Old Wally and March Coover started playing
> with muzzle loaders shortly after World War II. At that time they could
not
> get new barrels, so they had to use and sometimes rework old original
> barrels. Surprising enough many of their barrels came from the scrap
yard.
> They have told me that many times they would buy a rifle [ which at that
> time could be bought for only a few dollars] just to get a useable nipple
> since they did not have the equipment to make them and no one was
marketing
> such goods. Many of those old barrels were still loaded and the one I was
> refering to went off even tho it had spent years in a scrap yard out in
the
> weather.
>   These two gentlemen have been a absolute wealth of information for many
> of us in the North Texas area. They worked partime for a antique gun
dealer
> in Dallas begining in the early sixties, restoring guns. Consequently
they
> have handled more original guns over the years than most of us will ever
> see in a lifetime. There is hardly a style of gun you can mention that
one
> of them has not seen up close. Sadly March Coover passed away earlier
this
> year. He will be sorely missed.
>   I do envy you sir. I dearly wish I had the skill and the opportunity to
> the work that you apparently do.
> Pendleton
> ----------
> > From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels
> > Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 10:22 PM
> >
> > bud---
> > i never check a gun that way--i always check for the length the ramrod
> > goes down the barrel---if it isnt the same length as the end of the
> > barrel to the breach or the drum then i consider it loaded---I restore
15
> > to 20 guns a year and i get about 1/2 of them in the shop that are
> > loaded--so i fully understand and know the problem---even got one in
from
> > a customer that took it hunting and left it loaded for over 2 years---I
> > popped the breach and wal''llla there was powder and ball---luckey i
> > didn't use heat---now i consider all of them loaded until i can get air
> > out of the nipple or the drum----
> >       "Hawk"
> > Michael Pierce
> > 854 Glenfield Dr.
> > Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> > 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
> >
> > On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:02:14 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton"
> > <[e-mail]> writes:
> > >Hawk,
> > > I've been off line for a while so this post is a little late coming,
> > >but
> > >here it is. Always check old gun barrels to see if they are loaded.
> > >Dropping a steel rod down the bore to listen for a clink to determine
> > >if it
> > >is loaded is not always a sure thing. I won't go through the whole
> > >story,
> > >but I know of one case where a barrel was loaded with a ball bearing.
> > >The
> > >man was going to remove the breech plug, it did not want to give up so

> > >he
> > >dropped a steel rod down the bore to determine if it was loaded. It
> > >hit
> > >bottom with a definite clink so he stuck the breech in his forge to
> > >heat it
> > >up some. What happened next was rather spectacular. The thing went off

> > >and
> > >the ball bearing bounced off eveything in the shop. When the smoke
> > >cleared
> > >old Wally crawled out from under his forge unhurt, but scared damn
> > >near to
> > >death.
> > > One word of caution on a different subject all together.  If you
> > >folks
> > >don't have a good surge protector, that includes the modem line, you
> > >would
> > >do well to invest in one. Lightning can do wonders for modem.
> > >Pendleton
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________________
> > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion
Date: 28 Sep 1998 20:25:41 -0500

Howdy Hawk,
 It's listed in my Audubon Field Guide to Wildflowers ( Eastern ) as Wild
Indigo, ( Baptisia tinctoria ), and the other ( Baptisia australis ) Blue
False Indigo, is an escaped cultivated flower. Pam is going to check on the
latter since the seeds can be purchased here in Texas. The sap turns purple
when exposed to air and historically has been used as an inferior
substitute for true indigo dye. So if the person who was looking for this
stuff will let us know if you are interested in the seeds we will see if we
can get them for you. The place where they grow this stuff is NW of us and
would make for a short weekend adventure to somewhere new. Great excuse for
an outing! The true wild indigo blooms from May to Sept. so we might find
some in AR. Increases in burnt fields. I'll bring the book when I come to
AR and we can give it a shot there as well. ANY excuse to escape to the
country!
Yer most disobedient servant,
YellowFeather

>
> trapperjoe what does it look like-in what area does it grow-----ken is it
> common in arkansas---do you know what it looks like maby during hunting
> season we can find it---
>
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:06:16 EDT [e-mail] writes:
> >Wild Bllue Indigo (Blue Wildindigo)  (Baptisia australis)
> >According to my books it grows throughout the plains and prairies of
> >the
> >United States.
> >I live in eastern OKla. and here it's very common allthough most
> >people don't
> >know what it is.
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 28 Sep 1998 21:29:48 -0600

Hold it guys,

What about the three pouches at the Colorado Historical Society, Marino
Medina's, Kit Carson's, and Tom Tobin's. How about the pouches at the
Museum of the Fur trade, also shown in the "Mountain Man's Sketchbook",
Volume Two. At the Western Museum in Durango is another of Tom Tobin's
pouches along with his coat shown in "Mountain Man's Sketchbook", Volume
One. Look at Madison Grant's "Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch" book several of
those styles can be seen at the Cody Museum, as well as other smaller
museums around the country from the very early 1800's to 1850.

There's a number of books that touch on the subject, so I'm lost on entries
for your contest, when all one has to do is look around. I personally have
a good small pistol pouch from the 1830-1850 in style according to the late
Charles E. Hanson, Jr. We never thought much of it as both of us have
passed on several that sellers have good paperwork on but the prices were
too high.

To document such an item is a little time and effort, look at the trade gun
lots of articles but nothing on the internet, I talked to Charley and now
we have a good site for information that is documented.
See : http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html

Same could be done on the pouch as well as other items of this period, with
a little work. I would do it but am putting together another site for
period travel, equipage, sources and misc. trail information, as well as
changing business page at : http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/

When time allows after the first of the year maybe we could all get
involved in gathering information on pouches, etc. and build another
website.

Buck

----------
> From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
> Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 4:01 PM
>
> Washtahay-
>     first off, let me apologize for the delay in getting back to this.  As
far
> as I have heard, we had NO entries.  I don't think anyone really expected
> any.  Obviously, this doesn't mean all of the fur traders, trappers, and
> n'er-do-wells were running around without a hunting pouch--it just goes
to
> show how hard it can be to document something we KNOW was in common use.

>     Ah, well...
> LongWalker c. du B.
> At 09:49 AM 8/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >Washtahay-
> >    We have our judges-John Kramer, Hawk, and myself (LongWalker c. du B).
> >The prize pool has grown to a rum horn, horn cup, a pre-1840 large cent,
> >and a hand made turkey call.  Here are the rules:
> >    We want to locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as
having
> >been in use on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target
date
> >of 1830.  Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
> >    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the
> >Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the St
> >Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about
the
> >bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
> >    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been
in
> >use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
> >contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates,
for
> >example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported
by
> >other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp
74-75
> >of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
trains
> >to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in
the
> >late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
> >    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The folks on
the
> >list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate it
> >for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
documentation.
> >    If you find the bag, submit the information to me directly, or to the
> >list.  If you get in under the deadline with preliminary information and
it
> >takes a while for the judges' committee to reach a decision, you still
win
> >if we can agree the bag meets the criteria.
> >    Deadline for submission is 7 September 1998.
> >
> >Let the hunt begin!
> >
> >LongWalker c. du B., tilter at windmills, and occasional champion of
lost
> >causes
> >
> >
> >
> >



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: vermillion, bed rolls
Date: 28 Sep 1998 21:40:20 -0600

Allen,

Do you still have your big boat?

Buck

----------
> From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
> To: chat <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: vermillion, bed rolls
> Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 2:04 AM
>
> On bed rolls:  My current favorite bedding, at
> least when I have to carry it all myself, is a
> pair of 3 point blankets.
> Wes Housler sells un-torn pairs of 3-point
> blankets that are woven in Europe.  They are just
> about the 19th century 3-point size: two complete
> blankets woven in one piece end to end, just like
> in the old days. The blanket material is thick and
> high quality.  Come in white with black stripe at
> each end or red with same.  This is the first time
> that un-torn pairs have been available in many
> many years, and in the most common 19th century
> white w/ black bars pattern.  Fold them in half so
> that you have two thicknesses, then in half again
> on the long side.  You then have a nice blanket
> envelope and you can put any number of layers
> above or below you.
>
> On vermillion, don't know what else to add, Joe,
> that hasn't been stated about what vermillion is.
> It has not been available in this country for a
> long time because of its toxicity.  For a quick
> reference on vermillion in the trade see Hanson,
> Charles.  "A Paper of Vermilion."  Mus. Fur Trade
> Quarterly, Vol. 7 No. 3 (Fall 1971):  Phillips,
> E.M.  "The Long Story of Vermilion in the Fur
> Trade."  Mus. Fur Trade Quarterly Vol. 31 No. 1
> (Spring 1995).  An interesting aspect of the trade
> was how it was shipped, in a variety of
> containers, the most familiar being "papers" or
> small folded paper packets.  Also, however, an
> apparently common packing was in small leather
> pouches in 1/4 lb. lots.
> Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 28 Sep 1998 23:49:54 -0400

They had a few examples at the MFT in Cadron when I was there... I may have
gotten a pix of it... will look...

Addison Miller
-----Original Message-----


>Washtahay-
> first off, let me apologize for the delay in getting back to this.  As far
>as I have heard, we had NO entries.  I don't think anyone really expected
>any.  Obviously, this doesn't mean all of the fur traders, trappers, and
>n'er-do-wells were running around without a hunting pouch--it just goes to
>show how hard it can be to document something we KNOW was in common use.
> Ah, well...
>LongWalker c. du B.
>At 09:49 AM 8/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Washtahay-
>> We have our judges-John Kramer, Hawk, and myself (LongWalker c. du B).
>>The prize pool has grown to a rum horn, horn cup, a pre-1840 large cent,
>>and a hand made turkey call.  Here are the rules:
>> We want to locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as
having
>>been in use on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target
date
>>of 1830.  Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>> "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the
>>Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the St
>>Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about the
>>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
>> "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been in
>>use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates, for
>>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported by
>>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp 74-75
>>of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply trains
>>to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in the
>>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>> The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The folks on the
>>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate it
>>for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting documentation.
>> If you find the bag, submit the information to me directly, or to the
>>list.  If you get in under the deadline with preliminary information and
it
>>takes a while for the judges' committee to reach a decision, you still win
>>if we can agree the bag meets the criteria.
>> Deadline for submission is 7 September 1998.
>>
>>Let the hunt begin!
>>
>>LongWalker c. du B., tilter at windmills, and occasional champion of lost
>>causes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 29 Sep 1998 00:42:21 -0400

I can give photoes of docvumented bags but was holding off to get the
real people to provide input==what is wrong with this picture---will post
the pictures later this week---hopefully if anyone wants copies will send
them direct---I was suposto be a judge---not a entrant---

come on guys lets get the photoes and documentation in----I know i am not
the only person who can document a period shooting bag


      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:01:47 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>    first off, let me apologize for the delay in getting back to
>this.  As far
>as I have heard, we had NO entries.  I don't think anyone really
>expected
>any.  Obviously, this doesn't mean all of the fur traders, trappers,
>and
>n'er-do-wells were running around without a hunting pouch--it just
>goes to
>show how hard it can be to document something we KNOW was in common
>use.
>    Ah, well...
>LongWalker c. du B.
>At 09:49 AM 8/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Washtahay-
>>    We have our judges-John Kramer, Hawk, and myself (LongWalker
>c. du B).
>>The prize pool has grown to a rum horn, horn cup, a pre-1840 large
>cent,
>>and a hand made turkey call.  Here are the rules:
>>    We want to locate an original hunting pouch that we can
>document as having
>>been in use on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the
>target date
>>of 1830.  Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>>    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,
>Texas, or the
>>Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the
>St
>>Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear
>about the
>>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target
>area.
>>    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as
>having been in
>>use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of
>dates, for
>>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless
>supported by
>>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp
>74-75
>>of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
>trains
>>to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man
>in the
>>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>>    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The
>folks on the
>>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate
>it
>>for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
>documentation.
>>    If you find the bag, submit the information to me directly,
>or to the
>>list.  If you get in under the deadline with preliminary information
>and it
>>takes a while for the judges' committee to reach a decision, you
>still win
>>if we can agree the bag meets the criteria.
>>    Deadline for submission is 7 September 1998.
>>
>>Let the hunt begin!
>>
>>LongWalker c. du B., tilter at windmills, and occasional champion of
>lost
>>causes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 28 Sep 1998 23:50:21 -0500

Washtahay-
At 09:29 PM 9/28/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Hold it guys,
    NONE of the pouches you mention meet the criteria.  As originally set up,
those criteria were:
    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the
Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the St
Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about the
bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been in
use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates, for
example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported by
other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp 74-75
of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply trains
to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in the
late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
    Bags "from 1830-1850 in style", bags "assigned" dates due to stylistic
details, bags WITHOUT contemporary records or a solid chain of evidence do
not qualify.  Read the criteria.  Without evidence, the bag doesn't
qualify.  We are not talking "styles" here, we are talking actual pouches.

>What about
<snip>
> from the very early 1800's to 1850.
    Buck, I have examined the documentation of every pouch you cite
specifically .  NONE of them meet the criteria above.
>There's a number of books that touch on the subject, so I'm lost on entries
>for your contest, when all one has to do is look around. I personally have
>a good small pistol pouch from the 1830-1850 in style according to the late
>Charles E. Hanson, Jr. We never thought much of it as both of us have
>passed on several that sellers have good paperwork on but the prices were
>too high.
    FWIW, the last letter I got from Charles on this subject was a couple
years ago, right before the big hoopla at the MFT.  At that time, he said
he was still unaware of any hunting pouch that would meet these criteria.
>
>To document such an item is a little time and effort, look at the trade gun
    Buck, that was the goal.  To document a pouch that was IN the Rocky
Mountains, during the 1825-1835 time period.  Not a pouch from that time
used back east, not a pouch that "MIGHT" have been there-one we can PROVE
was there.  If you can do it, go for it.

And Addison Miller wrote:
>They had a few examples at the MFT in Cadron when I was there... I may have
>gotten a pix of it... will look...
    They have examples of bags that, stylistically, might have been in use in
the Rockies during the time in question.  Have they found any objective
proof that any of THOSE particular bags were in use in the Rockies during
the time in question?  As of 96, they hadn't.
LongWalker c. du B.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 28 Sep 1998 14:45:55 -0700

hawk went shooting last sun. couldnt hit nothing.bore on rifel was crusted
after a few shots near the end of muzzel had a hard time getting a ball down
first few inchea then smooth from there on.i know you are a fan of 3f  so im
going to try it was shooting 2f at 65 in a 45 swamp douglas barrel. patch was
well lubed what the heck?   iron tongue

Michael Pierce wrote:

> I can give photoes of docvumented bags but was holding off to get the
> real people to provide input==what is wrong with this picture---will post
> the pictures later this week---hopefully if anyone wants copies will send
> them direct---I was suposto be a judge---not a entrant---
>
> come on guys lets get the photoes and documentation in----I know i am not
> the only person who can document a period shooting bag
>
>
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:01:47 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
> writes:
> >Washtahay-
> >       first off, let me apologize for the delay in getting back to
> >this.  As far
> >as I have heard, we had NO entries.  I don't think anyone really
> >expected
> >any.  Obviously, this doesn't mean all of the fur traders, trappers,
> >and
> >n'er-do-wells were running around without a hunting pouch--it just
> >goes to
> >show how hard it can be to document something we KNOW was in common
> >use.
> >       Ah, well...
> >LongWalker c. du B.
> >At 09:49 AM 8/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >>Washtahay-
> >>      We have our judges-John Kramer, Hawk, and myself (LongWalker
> >c. du B).
> >>The prize pool has grown to a rum horn, horn cup, a pre-1840 large
> >cent,
> >>and a hand made turkey call.  Here are the rules:
> >>      We want to locate an original hunting pouch that we can
> >document as having
> >>been in use on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the
> >target date
> >>of 1830.  Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
> >>      "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,
> >Texas, or the
> >>Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the
> >St
> >>Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear
> >about the
> >>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target
> >area.
> >>      "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as
> >having been in
> >>use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
> >>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of
> >dates, for
> >>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless
> >supported by
> >>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp
> >74-75
> >>of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
> >trains
> >>to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man
> >in the
> >>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
> >>      The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The
> >folks on the
> >>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate
> >it
> >>for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
> >documentation.
> >>      If you find the bag, submit the information to me directly,
> >or to the
> >>list.  If you get in under the deadline with preliminary information
> >and it
> >>takes a while for the judges' committee to reach a decision, you
> >still win
> >>if we can agree the bag meets the criteria.
> >>      Deadline for submission is 7 September 1998.
> >>
> >>Let the hunt begin!
> >>
> >>LongWalker c. du B., tilter at windmills, and occasional champion of
> >lost
> >>causes
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 29 Sep 1998 01:14:10 -0400

MAY GET YOU TO POST MY PICTURES---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:29:48 -0600 "Barry Conner"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hold it guys,
>
>What about the three pouches at the Colorado Historical Society,
>Marino
>Medina's, Kit Carson's, and Tom Tobin's. How about the pouches at the
>Museum of the Fur trade, also shown in the "Mountain Man's
>Sketchbook",
>Volume Two. At the Western Museum in Durango is another of Tom Tobin's
>pouches along with his coat shown in "Mountain Man's Sketchbook",
>Volume
>One. Look at Madison Grant's "Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch" book
>several of
>those styles can be seen at the Cody Museum, as well as other smaller
>museums around the country from the very early 1800's to 1850.
>
>There's a number of books that touch on the subject, so I'm lost on
>entries
>for your contest, when all one has to do is look around. I personally
>have
>a good small pistol pouch from the 1830-1850 in style according to the
>late
>Charles E. Hanson, Jr. We never thought much of it as both of us have
>passed on several that sellers have good paperwork on but the prices
>were
>too high.
>
>To document such an item is a little time and effort, look at the
>trade gun
>lots of articles but nothing on the internet, I talked to Charley and
>now
>we have a good site for information that is documented.
>See : http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html
>
>Same could be done on the pouch as well as other items of this period,
>with
>a little work. I would do it but am putting together another site for
>period travel, equipage, sources and misc. trail information, as well
>as
>changing business page at : http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
>
>When time allows after the first of the year maybe we could all get
>involved in gathering information on pouches, etc. and build another
>website.
>
>Buck
>
>----------
>> From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search &
>Contest
>> Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 4:01 PM
>>
>> Washtahay-
>>     first off, let me apologize for the delay in getting back to
>this.  As
>far
>> as I have heard, we had NO entries.  I don't think anyone really
>expected
>> any.  Obviously, this doesn't mean all of the fur traders, trappers,
>and
>> n'er-do-wells were running around without a hunting pouch--it just
>goes
>to
>> show how hard it can be to document something we KNOW was in common
>use.
>
>>     Ah, well...
>> LongWalker c. du B.
>> At 09:49 AM 8/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Washtahay-
>> >    We have our judges-John Kramer, Hawk, and myself
>(LongWalker c. du B).
>> >The prize pool has grown to a rum horn, horn cup, a pre-1840 large
>cent,
>> >and a hand made turkey call.  Here are the rules:
>> >    We want to locate an original hunting pouch that we can
>document as
>having
>> >been in use on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the
>target
>date
>> >of 1830.  Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>> >    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,
>Texas, or the
>> >Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in
>the St
>> >Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear
>about
>the
>> >bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target
>area.
>> >    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as
>having been
>in
>> >use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>> >contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of
>dates,
>for
>> >example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless
>supported
>by
>> >other available information (an example being the bag he shows on
>pp
>74-75
>> >of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
>trains
>> >to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man
>in
>the
>> >late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>> >    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The
>folks on
>the
>> >list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and
>evaluate it
>> >for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
>documentation.
>> >    If you find the bag, submit the information to me directly,
>or to the
>> >list.  If you get in under the deadline with preliminary
>information and
>it
>> >takes a while for the judges' committee to reach a decision, you
>still
>win
>> >if we can agree the bag meets the criteria.
>> >    Deadline for submission is 7 September 1998.
>> >
>> >Let the hunt begin!
>> >
>> >LongWalker c. du B., tilter at windmills, and occasional champion
>of
>lost
>> >causes
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels
Date: 29 Sep 1998 01:07:33 -0400

had many a good teacher---the young crowd needs to learnb the technique
of how to listen and what is common sense---sorry if my posting was a bit
crass---but have turned intop0 a real bear the last few years with the
over-educated idiots trying to tell me how i should restore a weopen---i
still do it the old way and it is always wuality---if i cant restore one
that will be quality and appropriate to period i usually tell people to
take it somewhere else---it doesnt heasrt my feelings to have someone do
a restoration project=---I am slow and meticulus in my work and will only
do it the old ways that i have researched for over 40 years---i like my
work and only advertise by word of mouth---have never had a dissatisfied
customer but again ---if you don't like the time it takes me to do a job
---take it to someone else-it won't heart my feelings---I have gotten
quite hard in my old age---but also have learned what quality ofr
workmanship and restoration skill is---sometimes it's several months just
to find out where and who made a gun---the problem is to obtain the
attitude and the skill of the original builder---i accepted a gun here
about a year ago---it was made of beech wood very tight grain and small
fleck---obviously a english gun---couldnt get wood---spent over 100
trying to get 2 chuncks of wood that I could use---noo avail---then the
owner got mad and said when will i get my gun---I sent him a note and
said as soon as i can ship it---no work was started and it will neber be
restored by me---enclosed please fins a listing of about 14 or 15 people
that do restoration ---contact them if you want the work accomplished---I
cannot be held to a exact time span to get your work accomplished---

this seems to be a independent attidude but is not it is a person that
will not compromise the craftsmanship to do proper and true
restoration---most people that look at my work cannot see where i have
made changes ot fixed an original---THIS TAKES A LOT OF TIME AND SKILL---
a lot of people do not want this or even care---only believe in
function---just finishing up a h/e. leman---only starteed with a piece of
a but plate--made everything else==wish i was the original craftsman---he
was good and did a exceptional job---sorry for the verbose BS-- but i
sometimes get quite outspoken on the subject of restotation---

NOTE I DID NOT TAKE OFFENSE IN WHAT YOU SAID ---IT EVEN SOUNDED LIKE A
COMPLEMENT IN SOME SENSES---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:25:10 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hawk,
>  I sure wasn't trying to tell you how to do your business. Just
>thought
>that story was worth relating. Old Wally and March Coover started
>playing
>with muzzle loaders shortly after World War II. At that time they
>could not
>get new barrels, so they had to use and sometimes rework old original
>barrels. Surprising enough many of their barrels came from the scrap
>yard.
>They have told me that many times they would buy a rifle [ which at
>that
>time could be bought for only a few dollars] just to get a useable
>nipple
>since they did not have the equipment to make them and no one was
>marketing
>such goods. Many of those old barrels were still loaded and the one I
>was
>refering to went off even tho it had spent years in a scrap yard out
>in the
>weather.
>  These two gentlemen have been a absolute wealth of information for
>many
>of us in the North Texas area. They worked partime for a antique gun
>dealer
>in Dallas begining in the early sixties, restoring guns. Consequently
>they
>have handled more original guns over the years than most of us will
>ever
>see in a lifetime. There is hardly a style of gun you can mention that
>one
>of them has not seen up close. Sadly March Coover passed away earlier
>this
>year. He will be sorely missed.
>  I do envy you sir. I dearly wish I had the skill and the opportunity
>to
>the work that you apparently do.
>Pendleton
>----------
>> From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels
>> Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 10:22 PM
>>
>> bud---
>> i never check a gun that way--i always check for the length the
>ramrod
>> goes down the barrel---if it isnt the same length as the end of the
>> barrel to the breach or the drum then i consider it loaded---I
>restore 15
>> to 20 guns a year and i get about 1/2 of them in the shop that are
>> loaded--so i fully understand and know the problem---even got one in
>from
>> a customer that took it hunting and left it loaded for over 2
>years---I
>> popped the breach and wal''llla there was powder and ball---luckey i
>> didn't use heat---now i consider all of them loaded until i can get
>air
>> out of the nipple or the drum----
>>       "Hawk"
>> Michael Pierce
>> 854 Glenfield Dr.
>> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>>
>> On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:02:14 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton"
>> <[e-mail]> writes:
>> >Hawk,
>> > I've been off line for a while so this post is a little late
>coming,
>> >but
>> >here it is. Always check old gun barrels to see if they are loaded.
>> >Dropping a steel rod down the bore to listen for a clink to
>determine
>> >if it
>> >is loaded is not always a sure thing. I won't go through the whole
>> >story,
>> >but I know of one case where a barrel was loaded with a ball
>bearing.
>> >The
>> >man was going to remove the breech plug, it did not want to give up
>so
>> >he
>> >dropped a steel rod down the bore to determine if it was loaded. It
>
>> >hit
>> >bottom with a definite clink so he stuck the breech in his forge to
>
>> >heat it
>> >up some. What happened next was rather spectacular. The thing went
>off
>> >and
>> >the ball bearing bounced off eveything in the shop. When the smoke
>> >cleared
>> >old Wally crawled out from under his forge unhurt, but scared damn
>> >near to
>> >death.
>> > One word of caution on a different subject all together.  If you
>> >folks
>> >don't have a good surge protector, that includes the modem line,
>you
>> >would
>> >do well to invest in one. Lightning can do wonders for modem.
>> >Pendleton
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________
>> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: B Connor
Date: 29 Sep 1998 09:13:06 +0100

You asked if I still had my big boat.  Never did
have one.  A guy nearby built an industrial
strength boat a few years back that we used a time
or two on the Missouri, but it was never mine.
Wish I did have one.  There's not much to beat
sailing down the Missouri in a big wood boat.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: MtMan-List: Parts needed
Date: 29 Sep 1998 12:13:37 -0400

I have a Traditions .50 cal Hawken that I want to convert to a flinter. I
can find the touchhole lines, no problem, but I need a source to a lock...
Can someone give me a starting place?  I've tried Thunder Ridge, but can get
no response from them...

Many Thanks

Addison Miller




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Colleen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed
Date: 29 Sep 1998 11:53:09 -0500

> I have a Traditions .50 cal Hawken that I want to convert to a flinter. I
> can find the touchhole lines, no problem, but I need a source to a lock...
> Can someone give me a starting place?  I've tried Thunder Ridge, but can get
> no response from them...

Try:

Track of the Wolf
PO Box 6
Osseo, MN  55369
612-424-2500




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Hall Carbine
Date: 29 Sep 1998 14:41:26 -0600 (CST)

Who out there knows where one may procure a repro Hall Carbine.  Info on
vendors and prices appreciated.

TIA

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed
Date: 29 Sep 1998 16:38:31 EDT

Here are some hyperlinks: <A HREF="http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/bp-
parts.htm">Shooter's Resources</A>  <A HREF="http://www.trackofthewolf.com/">
Track of the Wolf, Inc.</A>  <A HREF="http://www.avsia.com/tvm/">TVM</A>   In
addition to these direct links, also try Don Eads Muzzleloaders Supplies.
16075 Hwy 22 N, Lexington, Tennessee 38351.  phone [phone] fax (901)
967-5002 For looking at their catalog, they have at just about every part
known to man.    yhs,  GunShot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 29 Sep 1998 17:20:15 EDT

Great the letter shows up on Sept. 29,1998 with a dead line of Sept 7, 1998



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 29 Sep 1998 17:20:50 -0500

Washtahay-
At 05:20 PM 9/29/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Great the letter shows up on Sept. 29,1998 with a dead line of Sept 7, 1998
    The original post starting the contest was on 7/28.  Deadline was extended
to 9/7 on 8/13.  Anything else?
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: B Connor
Date: 29 Sep 1998 18:07:04 -0600

Talked to you at Ft.Union when you guys came in on their anniv. for del.
the US Mail, we carried the government mail from Union to Ft. Buford.

Allen nice hearing from you, we were with Jerry Farenthold, he made the
introductions.

Buck
----------
> From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
> To: chat <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: B Connor
> Date: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 2:13 AM
>
> You asked if I still had my big boat.  Never did
> have one.  A guy nearby built an industrial
> strength boat a few years back that we used a time
> or two on the Missouri, but it was never mine.
> Wish I did have one.  There's not much to beat
> sailing down the Missouri in a big wood boat.
> Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 29 Sep 1998 21:22:49 -0400

there was a lot of palaber a while back about a ketch on a bag----i have
been digging and found one that can be posted if someone would like to
put it on their web site--I have it on a jpg and can send it to anyone
interested along with some photoes of a couple of original shooting bags.
the  bags came from m.a. rupp and he was around 90 years old when he gave
them to me--they were his fathers and had been left in a trunk for many
years---he gave the bags to me back in 1960---manard  was born in 1850 in
origon territory---his father migrated there from st louis and is on the
tax rolls in 1825 and then no longer existed on the tax listings---manard
was 12 years old when his father died and left him with his mother---he
migrated to arkansas and became a resident of eureks springs ark in 1954.
 he died in 1958 at the age of 98.  I also have his muzzle loading rifle
that belonged to his father he said---he gave that to me a couple of
years after he gave me the shooting bags----one of the bags is made of
canvis and has his fathers name and  a date of 1830 in the inside of it .
the leather bag doesnt have any markings and is very crude made---the
canvis bag has leather whelting and is also not in very good shape.
there are no straps for either bag---I will send the pictures to anyone
interested or who wants to post them on their web site.

I also promised to send some one a set of drawings for a double
beavertale bag  and have the copies along with a jpg photo of the one in
question and if they would drop me a note offline with their address I
will send out ASAP.  I have prints on hand---

I hope this will start to motivate others in the great 1830 american
hunting bag search---
i know i cannot enter as i am suposto be a judge---some good prizes for
doing a little research.

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:49:36 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>    OK folks.  We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature
>of one bag
>the last few days.  So lets get down to brass tacks on this.  I want
>to
>locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been
>in use
>on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of
>1830.
>Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,
>Texas, or the
>Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the
>St
>Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about
>the
>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
>
>    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as
>having been in
>use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates,
>for
>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless
>supported by
>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp
>74-75
>of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
>trains
>to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in
>the
>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The
>folks on the
>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate
>it
>for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
>documentation.
>
>    Prize?  Immortal fame isn't enough?  How about a rum horn and
>horn cup?
>Copied after the canteen shown on p 142  and the bottom cup on p 144
>of
>"The Powder Horn and its Architecture".
>    Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of the
>woodwork.
>Judge's decisions are final.  Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing
>to
>help me judge this?
>
>Let the hunt begin!
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>

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From: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Frontier
Date: 29 Sep 1998 22:07:25 -0700

Does anyone know if the History Ch. will be showing , Frontier: the
Legends of the old Northwest. Missed it the frist time.  thanks  Frank



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 29 Sep 1998 21:02:53 -0600

Hawk,

May be able to use your photos for website mentioned earlier for period
travel and equipage used.

Buck

----------
> From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
> Date: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 7:22 PM
>
> there was a lot of palaber a while back about a ketch on a bag----i have
> been digging and found one that can be posted if someone would like to
> put it on their web site--I have it on a jpg and can send it to anyone
> interested along with some photoes of a couple of original shooting bags.
> the  bags came from m.a. rupp and he was around 90 years old when he gave
> them to me--they were his fathers and had been left in a trunk for many
> years---he gave the bags to me back in 1960---manard  was born in 1850 in
> origon territory---his father migrated there from st louis and is on the
> tax rolls in 1825 and then no longer existed on the tax listings---manard
> was 12 years old when his father died and left him with his mother---he
> migrated to arkansas and became a resident of eureks springs ark in 1954.
>  he died in 1958 at the age of 98.  I also have his muzzle loading rifle
> that belonged to his father he said---he gave that to me a couple of
> years after he gave me the shooting bags----one of the bags is made of
> canvis and has his fathers name and  a date of 1830 in the inside of it .
> the leather bag doesnt have any markings and is very crude made---the
> canvis bag has leather whelting and is also not in very good shape.
> there are no straps for either bag---I will send the pictures to anyone
> interested or who wants to post them on their web site.
>
> I also promised to send some one a set of drawings for a double
> beavertale bag  and have the copies along with a jpg photo of the one in
> question and if they would drop me a note offline with their address I
> will send out ASAP.  I have prints on hand---
>
> I hope this will start to motivate others in the great 1830 american
> hunting bag search---
> i know i cannot enter as i am suposto be a judge---some good prizes for
> doing a little research.
>
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:49:36 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
> writes:
> >Washtahay-
> >    OK folks.  We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature
> >of one bag
> >the last few days.  So lets get down to brass tacks on this.  I want
> >to
> >locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been
> >in use
> >on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of
> >1830.
> >Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
> >    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,
> >Texas, or the
> >Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the
> >St
> >Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about
> >the
> >bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
> >
> >    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as
> >having been in
> >use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
> >contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates,
> >for
> >example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless
> >supported by
> >other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp
> >74-75
> >of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
> >trains
> >to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in
> >the
> >late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
> >    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The
> >folks on the
> >list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate
> >it
> >for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
> >documentation.
> >
> >    Prize?  Immortal fame isn't enough?  How about a rum horn and
> >horn cup?
> >Copied after the canteen shown on p 142  and the bottom cup on p 144
> >of
> >"The Powder Horn and its Architecture".
> >    Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of the
> >woodwork.
> >Judge's decisions are final.  Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing
> >to
> >help me judge this?
> >
> >Let the hunt begin!
> >LongWalker c. du B.
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Frontier (History Channel)
Date: 29 Sep 1998 23:46:53 EDT

Frank, It doesn't show in the highlights that were in Smoke 'n Fire News, but
here a direct link: <A HREF="http://www.historychannel.com/">The History
Channel</A>   yhs, GunShot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed
Date: 29 Sep 1998 21:51:17 -0400

you would be better off calling or getting a siler kit and using the
parts to make your own lock to fit your rifle---the kit is 49.95 from
mountain state and is part number 12114 on page 87 of their catalog.
their 800 number is 1-800-445-1776---they give reliable and prompt
service on all parts.  their catalog costs 5.00 and is returnable on
first order.  if you have a business then there is also a dealer discount
and another if there is quantity involved---must spent $200.00 per year
minimum to stay on dealer status and get your discount...
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:53:09 -0500 "Colleen" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>> I have a Traditions .50 cal Hawken that I want to convert to a
>flinter. I
>> can find the touchhole lines, no problem, but I need a source to a
>lock...
>> Can someone give me a starting place?  I've tried Thunder Ridge, but
>can get
>> no response from them...
>
>Try:
>
>Track of the Wolf
>PO Box 6
>Osseo, MN  55369
>612-424-2500
>
>
>

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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed
Date: 29 Sep 1998 21:45:41 -0400

addison:

if you cant find a lock then order a siler flintlock kit---get you a
piece of flat iron and copy your outline of the lock in your rifle.  take
the parts from the siler and install on the plate I have done this on
many of a conversion that i could not find a replacement lock for---makes
it quite dimple--drill a few holes and do a little tapping---the lock
plate that you cut out should be tapered inward about 2 to 5 degree so
that it will mary into the wood without a gap---give me a call if you
have any questions--.

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:13:37 -0400 [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
writes:
>I have a Traditions .50 cal Hawken that I want to convert to a
>flinter. I
>can find the touchhole lines, no problem, but I need a source to a
>lock...
>Can someone give me a starting place?  I've tried Thunder Ridge, but
>can get
>no response from them...
>
>Many Thanks
>
>Addison Miller
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed
Date: 29 Sep 1998 21:53:37 -0400

don eads good suplier and usually prompt if he has what you need in
stock---best to call and order that way you will know if he is able to
ship---if not try mountain state---1-800-445-1776 they also have about
anything you might need---good prices too.
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:38:31 EDT [e-mail] writes:
>Here are some hyperlinks: <A HREF="http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/bp-
>parts.htm">Shooter's Resources</A>  <A
>HREF="http://www.trackofthewolf.com/">
>Track of the Wolf, Inc.</A>  <A
>HREF="http://www.avsia.com/tvm/">TVM</A>   In
>addition to these direct links, also try Don Eads Muzzleloaders
>Supplies.
>16075 Hwy 22 N, Lexington, Tennessee 38351.  phone [phone] fax
>(901)
>967-5002 For looking at their catalog, they have at just about every
>part
>known to man.    yhs,  GunShot
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hall Carbine
Date: 29 Sep 1998 21:59:18 -0400

only persons that i know that might have what you want is cape outfitters
in cape garardeau mo---phone # [phone]  ---would you be interested
in a original---I may know where one is but don't remember the condition
will have to check---let me know your wishes---

      YMHOSANT

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:41:26 -0600 (CST) [e-mail] (Henry B.
Crawford) writes:
>Who out there knows where one may procure a repro Hall Carbine.  Info
>on
>vendors and prices appreciated.
>
>TIA
>
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Frontier
Date: 30 Sep 1998 03:30:35 -0500

On 1998-09-29 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT  (Win16; U)
   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
   >Sender: [e-mail]
   >Precedence: bulk
   >Status:
   >Does anyone know if the History Ch. will be showing , Frontier: the
   >Legends of the old Northwest. Missed it the frist time.  thanks
   >Frank
(GRIN) I was unable to watch it the first time around and had my wife tape
it for me. Now I can watch it anytime I want. wonderful inventions,VCR's!
 In all honesty,Keep an eye on the listings for history channel,it will be
on again soon. Or check the web page,I think its www.historychannel.com but
I would check it out on a search engine first.

Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

"They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed
Date: 30 Sep 1998 09:38:24 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-29 12:16:07 EDT, you write:

<< I have a Traditions .50 cal Hawken that I want to convert to a flinter. I
 can find the touchhole lines, no problem, but I need a source to a lock...
 Can someone give me a starting place?  I've tried Thunder Ridge, but can get
 no response from them...

 Many Thanks

 Addison Miller
  >>
Have you called Traditions?  If the gun was originally available as a flint or
cap they may have a drop in swap.  I know that several of their guns are built
to be an either or as they like to sell for deer season in Pennsylvania which
is a flint only state.  Their telephone # is 860-388-4656, M - F 8 a.m. to
4:30 p.m. EST.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Painters Tarps
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:43:34 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:44:13 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:44:33 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion, Indigo
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:45:20 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:46:10 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:45:41 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:46:40 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  MtMan-List: DYES : Vermillion and Indigo...
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:45:00 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  MtMan-List: vermillion, bed rolls
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:47:24 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion, Indigo
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:46:55 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:47:52 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:49:49 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:50:39 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Frontier
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:51:40 EDT

Thanks for your helpful information.  Please unsubscribe me at this time.
Thanks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed
Date: 30 Sep 1998 17:20:25 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BDEC96.9CDE3620
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

You done it backwards most get the lock first then change the barrel the
way you have done it makes a good club and also a lot of work.  If you
can't find a lock then fill the lock mortise and then dig out for the new
lock.  Later Jon T

----------
: From: [e-mail]
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed
: Date: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 6:38 AM
:
: In a message dated 98-09-29 12:16:07 EDT, you write:
:
: << I have a Traditions .50 cal Hawken that I want to convert to a
flinter. I
:  can find the touchhole lines, no problem, but I need a source to a
lock...
:  Can someone give me a starting place?  I've tried Thunder Ridge, but can
get
:  no response from them...
:
:  Many Thanks
:
:  Addison Miller
:   >>
: Have you called Traditions?  If the gun was originally available as a
flint or
: cap they may have a drop in swap.  I know that several of their guns are
built
: to be an either or as they like to sell for deer season in Pennsylvania
which
: is a flint only state.  Their telephone # is 860-388-4656, M - F 8 a.m.
to
: 4:30 p.m. EST.
:
: Your Humble Servant
:
: C.T. Oakes
:
------=_NextPart_000_01BDEC96.9CDE3620
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">You done it backwards most get the lock =
first then change the barrel the way you have done it makes a good club =
and also a lot of work.  If you can't find a lock then fill the =
lock mortise and then dig out for the new  lock.  Later Jon =
T<br><br>----------<br>: From: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000"><br>: =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed<br>: Date: =
Wednesday, September 30, 1998 6:38 AM<br>: <br>: In a message dated =
98-09-29 12:16:07 EDT, you write:<br>: <br>: << I have a =
Traditions .50 cal Hawken that I want to convert to a flinter. I<br>: =
 can find the touchhole lines, no problem, but I need a source to a =
lock...<br>:  Can someone give me a starting place?  I've =
tried Thunder Ridge, but can get<br>:  no response from =
them...<br>:  <br>:  Many Thanks<br>:  <br>: =
 Addison Miller<br>:   >><br>: Have you called =
Traditions?  If the gun was originally available as a flint or<br>: =
cap they may have a drop in swap.  I know that several of their =
guns are built<br>: to be an either or as they like to sell for deer =
season in Pennsylvania which<br>: is a flint only state.  Their =
telephone # is 860-388-4656, M - F 8 a.m. to<br>: 4:30 p.m. EST.<br>: =
<br>: Your Humble Servant<br>: <br>: C.T. Oakes<br>: </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BDEC96.9CDE3620--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buckskin Coats
Date: 30 Sep 1998 21:39:00 EDT

Ho the List

I am currently researching buckskin hunting frocks and would like to make
myself one.  I am intersted in making an indian style buckskin coat.

I have "The Frontier Rifleman" by Richard B. La Crosse, Jr. and the Mountain
Man Sketchbooks by Hanson.  I cannot get the patterns showing the coats
attributed the Indians to work.  I make very small models

Has anyone made such a coat or hunting shirt ?   What type of research did you
use?  Does any one know where I can get any useful patterns etc.

Thank you all very much for your time
Watch your topknot
John Seminerio



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan...
Date: 30 Sep 1998 21:18:48 -0400

I am trying to get the books that will help you .....But I have a bad cold and
going to bed early tonight too.  But I did not want you to think I had forgotten
you.  One book that is real good is Bongu ne ge  and that is spelled wrong.  It is
from the museum in Canada and shows very good examples of the leggings you are
talking about.
I am looking it up along with a fairly good book by Sherryl Hartman call Indian
Clothing of the Great lakes.

Linda

[e-mail] wrote:

> If it was a sexist statement, I didn't read it that way.  Anyhow, I am
> interested in your comments about the dark smoke or dyed leggings.  I have not
> found any good resources (can't say that I have looked THAT hard) to research
> leggings.  I understand the design and can make a pair I am sure, but as for
> what is exactly correct for what group and area I am not sure.  Any help would
> be much appreciated.
>
> Grant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parts needed
Date: 30 Sep 1998 23:18:26 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-29 12:16:07 EDT, you write:

<< I have a Traditions .50 cal Hawken that I want to convert to a flinter. I
 can find the touchhole lines, no problem, but I need a source to a lock... >>

Mountain State Muzzleloading Supplies
Rt. 2 Box 154-1
Williamstown, WV 26187

Customer Service [phone]

Keep in mind the older Traditions shared the same locks as CVA, so the CVA
Hawkin lock will work.  Get some extra main springs -- these locks had a
tendency to loose tension on the main spring.  Otherwise, they were pretty
trouble free, but I did break a sear once in the 5 years I used CVA's &
Traditions.  There's a sear engagement screw in the tumbler you may want to
take out -- it has the maddning tendency to self adjust to where the lock
won't hold cock even with the little spring that's supposed to prevent this.
If you want to retain this screw, I'd advise a bit of locktite or fingernail
polish to remedy the problem, but they do have flys & with set triggers, the
screw is unnecessary.  These locks tune up well & perform well for their
price.  Don't get me wrong -- they're NOT L&R's or Silers, but they do the job
& do it pretty well.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Elizabeth Pidgeon <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buckskin Coats
Date: 30 Sep 1998 23:02:39 -0400

Message text written by INTERNET:[e-mail]
>Has anyone made such a coat or hunting shirt ?   What type of research d=
id
you
use?  Does any one know where I can get any useful patterns etc.
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 I have made dozens of these coats E-mail Me and we can disscuss .
                                        Carl
  [e-mail]