ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/hist_text.9808

Internet Message Format | 1998-08-31 | 425KB

From: [e-mail] (PHIL PETERSEN)
Subject: MtMan-List: Preserving a Snake Skin
Date: 01 Aug 1998 18:07:09 GMT

A friend of mine killed a Copperhead the other day and gave the whole snake
to me.  The snake is now frozen.  Please advise your methods of skinning the
snake and preserving the skin.  Can you glue a cured skin to leather?
Please respond to:  [e-mail].

Thank You,
Phil




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit Dye Remover for Hides
Date: 01 Aug 1998 14:20:15 -0500

Hardtack
That would be me you met in Idaho...and it was also my pleasure to meet you.
That was a good doin's, wasn't it?  I have heard several methods of using
the dye remover and they all seem to work satisfactorily.  The actual method
used probably doesn't matter at all because, like you said, leather is
plenty tough.  It doesn't surprise me about that sky blue leather...God
knows how the color is applied.   I have seen bales of it and I have seen
several garments, dresses mostly, made from it.  Others can have my share of
it.   See you next year on the east slope of the Tetons.
YF&B
Lanney Ratcliff  #1585
Tejas Party
-----Original Message-----


>Lanney, are you the nice fellow I met in Idaho a month ago?  From Texas?
>If so, it was a pleasure to make your aquintance.  I'm 'Hardtack', or
>Randy, from Cal..  I have had great success with Rit Dye remover.  I've
>only met one set of hides which it didn't seem to phase.  These were
>blue!  I found that leaving them in the sunlight, works well on a lot of
>hides, slowly turned them to gray.  I made my first leggings from these
>hides.  After some use, dirt, sweat , etc.... these leggings don't look
>half bad.  I've turned some bright yellow hides into nice natural tan
>looking hides with Rit dye remover.  I, too, use the washer sparingly- a
>lot of soak, a little agitate.  Spin dry, hang dry, then fluff in the
>dryer with NO heat.  I've since been learning- trial, reading, error-
>about brain tanning.  This is absolutely the best leather, but as we
>learn, we have to make due sometimes.  don't be afraid to experiment-
>leather is tough stuff.   Hope to see you down the trail..   Hardtack
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Preserving a Snake Skin
Date: 01 Aug 1998 17:18:13 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-01 14:08:44 EDT, you write:

<< Please advise your methods of skinning the
 snake and preserving the skin. >>

Skin snake by slitting from middle lower lip to tip of tail. Actually start at
the anal opening and work in both directions. Remove excess fat or muscle
tissue. Stretch the skin out by tacking or nailing it to a board. Best
preservative for snake skins is a mixture of equal amounts of Alum, non-
iodized salt and neatsfoot oil. Spread the mixture on thick, it is like an
oily paste. Keep adding mixture as it is absorbed or dries. It takes about
7-10 days depending on temperature. The skin is fully cured, preserved and the
scales won't shed. I got this recipe from a professional "tanner" in Florida.
I have used it on 5 large rattlesnakes and it worked great. Initially the skin
is oily from the neatsfoot oil but you can wipe off the excess. Skin can be
glued down, but you need to remove excess oil. Only skins I've glued have been
on bow backs and I used hide glue. Some folks will soak skins in anti-freeze
to preserve. However, this method is not always permanent. Manytimes the skin
will shed scales and if the skin gets wet it will rot.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Preserving a Snake Skin
Date: 01 Aug 1998 17:42:27 -0500

Take pains to keep the knife blade out of the bladder.  Take my word for
that!!
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 98-08-01 14:08:44 EDT, you write:
>
><< Please advise your methods of skinning the
> snake and preserving the skin. >>
>
>Skin snake by slitting from middle lower lip to tip of tail. Actually start
at
>the anal opening and work in both directions. Remove excess fat or muscle
>tissue. Stretch the skin out by tacking or nailing it to a board. Best
>preservative for snake skins is a mixture of equal amounts of Alum, non-
>iodized salt and neatsfoot oil. Spread the mixture on thick, it is like an
>oily paste. Keep adding mixture as it is absorbed or dries. It takes about
>7-10 days depending on temperature. The skin is fully cured, preserved and
the
>scales won't shed. I got this recipe from a professional "tanner" in
Florida.
>I have used it on 5 large rattlesnakes and it worked great. Initially the
skin
>is oily from the neatsfoot oil but you can wipe off the excess. Skin can be
>glued down, but you need to remove excess oil. Only skins I've glued have
been
>on bow backs and I used hide glue. Some folks will soak skins in
anti-freeze
>to preserve. However, this method is not always permanent. Manytimes the
skin
>will shed scales and if the skin gets wet it will rot.
>
>Ghosting Wolf
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: commercial leather clothes
Date: 01 Aug 1998 16:53:58 -0600

John,
If you first rough up the smooth side of the hide, it will assist in the
dyeing. Rit dye is Ok, I like to use a commercial powered leather dye, It
is very expensive but you use very little. I carry small amount of it on
hand.
I can't remember what I paid for it but will check and get back to you. air
brushing with a leather dye such as Flembing or a concetrated amt of
powered leather dye mixed with water.  Costume designers use what is called
"fullers dirt" I get it from a Hollywood costume studio. Always start with
a light amt to see what the leather does with the dye, then go darker if
you wish or wash with some bleach to lighten.
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Preserving a Snake Skin
Date: 01 Aug 1998 17:19:25 -0600

Phil,
One of the best means of tanning a snake skin is by using glyerin, a hand
softner. I usually get the kind with rose water in it as it makes the skin
smell better. Use a pair of small scissors and cut the snake up the belly,
be careful around the anus and on down the tail. pull the skin slowly off
from the head to the tail. Once the skin is off, scrape any fat and
conective tissure from flesh side. I like to use a paper stapler to staple
the skin flesh side up to a pine board. Allow the skin to dry first than
pour some glyerin on the skin and rub in. put on about 2 or 3 coats. allow
each coat to dry, Use a razor to cut the skin from the staples. or you can
pull all those things.
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Preserving a Snake Skin
Date: 01 Aug 1998 19:06:19 -0500

I would note there is a distinct difference in the quality neatsfoot oils.  I
have had excellent results with "pure neatsfoot oil" I have had distressing
results (read: ruined leather) with "compounded neatsfoot oil."  Compounded is
the most common you find, be sure of what you buy.

If you use hot hide glue it will stick the hide down nicely.Do clean off
excess
oil first, a little alcohol should help.

I skinned several snakes as a kid, I remember slitting them stem to stern and
peeling the skin off like a grape, pulling with a pair of pliers.

Skins hold up pretty well if you simply scrape them clean and tack flesh side
up on a board and dry them.  I think I used a couple boxes of my mother sewing
pins.  I wore a copperhead done that way for several years as a hat band and
think it may still be laying around somewhere, now 40 some years latter.
There
was some scale flaking and last I saw, it looked pretty sad, so a little
dressing can't hurt, the first recipe below sounds about right.   The
anti-freeze leaves me cold.

Might want to thaw your critter out first.

John...



At 05:18 PM 8/1/98 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-08-01 14:08:44 EDT, you write:
>
><< Please advise your methods of skinning the
> snake and preserving the skin. >>
>
>Skin snake by slitting from middle lower lip to tip of tail. Actually
start at
>the anal opening and work in both directions. Remove excess fat or muscle
>tissue. Stretch the skin out by tacking or nailing it to a board. Best
>preservative for snake skins is a mixture of equal amounts of Alum, non-
>iodized salt and neatsfoot oil. Spread the mixture on thick, it is like an
>oily paste. Keep adding mixture as it is absorbed or dries. It takes about
>7-10 days depending on temperature. The skin is fully cured, preserved and
the
>scales won't shed. I got this recipe from a professional "tanner" in Florida.
>I have used it on 5 large rattlesnakes and it worked great. Initially the
skin
>is oily from the neatsfoot oil but you can wipe off the excess. Skin can be
>glued down, but you need to remove excess oil. Only skins I've glued have
been
>on bow backs and I used hide glue. Some folks will soak skins in anti-freeze
>to preserve. However, this method is not always permanent. Manytimes the skin
>will shed scales and if the skin gets wet it will rot.
>
>Ghosting Wolf
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 01 Aug 1998 20:05:25 -0500 (CDT)

Regard to the List:

Having just returned from the Canoe Trip From Hell, I have decided my
remaining energy and ask two questions at the same time.

First, however, thank you to everyone who sent me information or opinions
about painting a poly canoe.  It was useful.

Second, if I had tried to paint the canoe, this weekend would have
"antiqued" it to death.  Only 10 to 13 miles, at least two of which was
dragging or carrying canoes over rocks or shallows.  A joy as the weight was
unusual as we took a great deal of water due to the weather.  103 degrees
actual temperature.  The owner of the property where we started stated
several matters which should have given us a clue.  {{{{Dam (our unexpected
takeout as everyone was in a state of collaspe) is "Oh, bout ten or so miles
or so.  Never been that far down river.  Suspect you will do a little
walking.  Don't expect no breeze between the steep banks."}}}}}

The only point he was accurate on pertained to the breeze, and then only to
a degree.   As we melted, searching of a snippet of shade, we needed a
breeze or three to cool the sweat.  When we did hit water, and I mean where
it was of a depth where a paddle stroke would make the canoe go forward, the
wind was strong in our faces."

Mother Jones raised a fool.

Questions:

Where can I purchase fresh buffalo meat which can be delivered via air for a
rendezvous?  What cuts do you recommend?

Can you give me some suggestions for shooting events that are not, I repeat
not, related to paper targets?  The more historically correct, or unusal the
better.

Thanks again.  I love this list.

Mother Jones' Better Forgotten Son
Paul W. Jones
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Preserving a Snake Skin
Date: 01 Aug 1998 17:58:56 -0700

Phil,

Yes, you can glue a skinned snake hide if you don't salt it.  And, that
is critical.  Don't salt it.  It  can be glued with hide glue to leather
quite easily.
Take a pair of sharp siccors and cut it up the middle.  Peel off the
meat, bone (body) from the skin.  DO NOT SCRAPE, but do remove any
"meat".  Roll up the skin if you want keep it and freeze if you want to
save it.  If your ready to use it, rub hide glue into the skin AND the
piece of leather you want it to adhere to.  Apply pressure (not heavy
pressure) to both sides and let dry.

Since your snake is frozen it must be thawed and used immediately.  It
cannot (should not) be refrozen.  If you don't plan on using it right
away,  don't do anything till your ready.

Good luck

John Funk

Man is judged not so much by the friends he keeps but by the ones that
will call him friend.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 01 Aug 1998 22:12:10 -0400

Pablo...
 Tolt ya there wern't no damn water left enough to canoe on....And whats a
matter..Loose your shootin iron in a crooked whist game? Caint shoot yer own
damn meat!?!?!
Dennis


   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>Regard to the List:
>
>Having just returned from the Canoe Trip From Hell, I have decided my
>remaining energy and ask two questions at the same time.
>
>First, however, thank you to everyone who sent me information or opinions
>about painting a poly canoe.  It was useful.
>
>Second, if I had tried to paint the canoe, this weekend would have
>"antiqued" it to death.  Only 10 to 13 miles, at least two of which was
>dragging or carrying canoes over rocks or shallows.  A joy as the weight
was
>unusual as we took a great deal of water due to the weather.  103 degrees
>actual temperature.  The owner of the property where we started stated
>several matters which should have given us a clue.  {{{{Dam (our unexpected
>takeout as everyone was in a state of collaspe) is "Oh, bout ten or so
miles
>or so.  Never been that far down river.  Suspect you will do a little
>walking.  Don't expect no breeze between the steep banks."}}}}}
>
>The only point he was accurate on pertained to the breeze, and then only to
>a degree.   As we melted, searching of a snippet of shade, we needed a
>breeze or three to cool the sweat.  When we did hit water, and I mean where
>it was of a depth where a paddle stroke would make the canoe go forward,
the
>wind was strong in our faces."
>
>Mother Jones raised a fool.
>
>Questions:
>
>Where can I purchase fresh buffalo meat which can be delivered via air for
a
>rendezvous?  What cuts do you recommend?
>
>Can you give me some suggestions for shooting events that are not, I repeat
>not, related to paper targets?  The more historically correct, or unusal
the
>better.
>
>Thanks again.  I love this list.
>
>Mother Jones' Better Forgotten Son
>Paul W. Jones
>[e-mail]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 01 Aug 1998 20:42:39 +0000

Dear Paul,
[e-mail] wrote:
> Questions:
> Where can I purchase fresh buffalo meat which can be delivered via air for a rendezvous?  What cuts do >you recommend?


I have a couple local contacts here in Colorado. Where does it need to
be shipped to and how many tons you need?
Also, when you need it by?
Sincerely,
Joe


--
Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome!
To be Happy, Joyous and Free
Joseph Miller, Webmaster
http://www.Colorado-Mall.com
For information on leasing mall space
E-mail: [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 01 Aug 1998 22:00:26 -0500

Pablo, ol' sod
Sorry fer yer troubles but at least ye warn't sleepin' with no grizzly bars.
I betcha ye wuz moppin' yore head with a blue hankie, too.  Reckon ye could
run me up a copy of thet real purty poem again?  I cain't find mine
ennywhar.
Thankee kindly
Big Zwey
-----Original Message-----


>Regard to the List:
>
>Having just returned from the Canoe Trip From Hell, I have decided my
>remaining energy and ask two questions at the same time.
>
>First, however, thank you to everyone who sent me information or opinions
>about painting a poly canoe.  It was useful.
>
>Second, if I had tried to paint the canoe, this weekend would have
>"antiqued" it to death.  Only 10 to 13 miles, at least two of which was
>dragging or carrying canoes over rocks or shallows.  A joy as the weight
was
>unusual as we took a great deal of water due to the weather.  103 degrees
>actual temperature.  The owner of the property where we started stated
>several matters which should have given us a clue.  {{{{Dam (our unexpected
>takeout as everyone was in a state of collaspe) is "Oh, bout ten or so
miles
>or so.  Never been that far down river.  Suspect you will do a little
>walking.  Don't expect no breeze between the steep banks."}}}}}
>
>The only point he was accurate on pertained to the breeze, and then only to
>a degree.   As we melted, searching of a snippet of shade, we needed a
>breeze or three to cool the sweat.  When we did hit water, and I mean where
>it was of a depth where a paddle stroke would make the canoe go forward,
the
>wind was strong in our faces."
>
>Mother Jones raised a fool.
>
>Questions:
>
>Where can I purchase fresh buffalo meat which can be delivered via air for
a
>rendezvous?  What cuts do you recommend?
>
>Can you give me some suggestions for shooting events that are not, I repeat
>not, related to paper targets?  The more historically correct, or unusal
the
>better.
>
>Thanks again.  I love this list.
>
>Mother Jones' Better Forgotten Son
>Paul W. Jones
>[e-mail]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 01 Aug 1998 23:00:29 -0400

Lanny,
  I thinks I got a copy of that bee-ute-e-ful tome around here some wheres..
Reckon it oughta be shared with the list??
Dennis
   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>Pablo, ol' sod
>Sorry fer yer troubles but at least ye warn't sleepin' with no grizzly
bars.
>I betcha ye wuz moppin' yore head with a blue hankie, too.  Reckon ye could
>run me up a copy of thet real purty poem again?  I cain't find mine
>ennywhar.
>Thankee kindly
>Big Zwey
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 01 Aug 1998 22:11:40 -0500

Dennis
I wouldn't mind, but Hiawatha knows where we each live.  "Abair, etc, etc"
WTF,O?
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>Lanny,
>  I thinks I got a copy of that bee-ute-e-ful tome around here some
wheres..
>Reckon it oughta be shared with the list??
>Dennis
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Saturday, August 01, 1998 11:06 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
>
>
>>Pablo, ol' sod
>>Sorry fer yer troubles but at least ye warn't sleepin' with no grizzly
>bars.
>>I betcha ye wuz moppin' yore head with a blue hankie, too.  Reckon ye
could
>>run me up a copy of thet real purty poem again?  I cain't find mine
>>ennywhar.
>>Thankee kindly
>>Big Zwey
>>>
>>
>>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 01 Aug 1998 23:10:38 -0400

Lanny,
You have a point....But if I can find it.. What the hell.....
  It means.. "Say Little, But Say It Well"   (Scot's Gaelic)
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>Dennis
>I wouldn't mind, but Hiawatha knows where we each live.  "Abair, etc, etc"
>WTF,O?
>Lanney





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 01 Aug 1998 22:16:41 -0500

I knew that.
-----Original Message-----


>Lanny,
>You have a point....But if I can find it.. What the hell.....
>  It means.. "Say Little, But Say It Well"   (Scot's Gaelic)
>D
>
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Saturday, August 01, 1998 11:18 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
>
>
>>Dennis
>>I wouldn't mind, but Hiawatha knows where we each live.  "Abair, etc, etc"
>>WTF,O?
>>Lanney
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 01 Aug 1998 23:13:20 -0400

Yeah, Uh huh... <BG>
   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
-----Original Message-----


>I knew that.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Saturday, August 01, 1998 10:12 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
>
>
>>Lanny,
>>You have a point....But if I can find it.. What the hell.....
>>  It means.. "Say Little, But Say It Well"   (Scot's Gaelic)
>>D
>>
>>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Saturday, August 01, 1998 11:18 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
>>
>>
>>>Dennis
>>>I wouldn't mind, but Hiawatha knows where we each live.  "Abair, etc,
etc"
>>>WTF,O?
>>>Lanney
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (PHIL PETERSEN)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 02 Aug 1998 03:18:13 GMT

Hi Joe.  I am a friend of Bill W. and Dr. Bob!  Ain't it a wonderful way of
life!

Phil
>Dear Paul,
>[e-mail] wrote:
>> Questions:
>> Where can I purchase fresh buffalo meat which can be delivered via air
for a rendezvous?  What cuts do >you recommend?
>
>
>I have a couple local contacts here in Colorado. Where does it need to
>be shipped to and how many tons you need?
>Also, when you need it by?
>Sincerely,
>Joe
>
>
>--
>Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome!
>To be Happy, Joyous and Free
>Joseph Miller, Webmaster
>http://www.Colorado-Mall.com
>For information on leasing mall space
>E-mail: [e-mail]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lucien Fontanelle's Hunting Pouch????
Date: 01 Aug 1998 23:37:17 -0500

Washtahay-
    In a word, NO.  But a very interesting bag nonetheless...It was worth the
5 hours it took to go and examine it.
    Typical hunting bag, single pocket about 8" wide, 9" tall.  Beavertail
flap.  Strap was adjustable with a buckle.  One tooled line on each side of
the strap.  Production horn attached-with a battered wood measure-to straps
integral with the shoulder strap-just strips cut off the side.  Leather was
about  3/16" thick.  No other accouterments.
    The bag was professionally done.  I am inclined to think it was a
production item, as I have seen one like it in southern Missouri, and heard
of another in South Dakota.  It was sewn with 2 lines of stitches on a
machine.  The stitches were "single-thread chain stitch"-as used by one of
the very early sewing machines.  Based on my limited research into the
history of sewing machines, it would probably post-date 1849.  But a very
nice bag.
    What has me wondering are the notes accompanying the bag and other items
in the small collection.  The notes, with various dates in the late 1850s,
stated the bag had belonged to "L. Fontanel".  There were several items of
Indian origin in the collection, some attributed to the "Shian", others
were attributed to the "Sou".  (This man was a worse speller than almost
anyone I know-I saw two spellings of the word 'fort', the rest was similar).
    I am wondering if the bag could have belonged to Logan Fontenelle-son of
Lucien Fontenelle.  I seem to recall he was killed by the Sioux in 1855.
It makes for some interesting speculation, at least.  Does anyone have any
solid information about him (Logan)?  All I have is a few references.
LongWalker c. du B



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 02 Aug 1998 01:42:06 EDT

Lietzau Taxidermy sells a "buffalo sampler" approximately 25 poounds of all
different cuts and ground.  Air Freighted in dry ice.   PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rit Dye Remover for Hides(Blue Hides)
Date: 02 Aug 1998 03:55:51 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-01 15:19:23 EDT, you write:

<< ----------(Stuff Deleted)----------- It doesn't surprise me about that sky
blue leather...God knows how the color is applied.----------(Stuff
Deleted)----------- >>

   In the case of these blue hides.......there is a guy that makes the
rendezvous circuit in out area that allways has a stack of these things. The
blue color of these hides is the result of the tanning process used on these
hides, they aren't dyed blue.  Sorry, an't for the life of me remember what
type of process he said was used.  In this case, some folks have good success
using Rit Dye to get them to an acceptable color.

                                                   Longshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 02 Aug 1998 07:44:45 -0500 (CDT)

Boy were you right.  No buff as some yankee bastards killed them all for sport.

Need the paperless shooting information as I will be range master at a
rendezvous in October and I want to fuck over all of the elitist paper
punching bastards.  One idea is "gentlemen, sit in the canoe.   on command
you will realize Indians are attacking.  you will shoot at xxx target over
your shoulder.  you will then lay flat in the canoe to avoid the arrows
being shot at your ass and reload, points deducted for exposted body parts
or weapons and on command shot at target xxx22.  Get the drift.

Prices have been greatly reduced as to many of the fishing items.  Will call
today when my hand is strong enough to lift the phone.

Paul


>Pablo...
> Tolt ya there wern't no damn water left enough to canoe on....And whats a
>matter..Loose your shootin iron in a crooked whist game? Caint shoot yer own
>damn meat!?!?!
>Dennis
>
>
>   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Saturday, August 01, 1998 9:14 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
>
>
>>Regard to the List:
>>
>>Having just returned from the Canoe Trip From Hell, I have decided my
>>remaining energy and ask two questions at the same time.
>>
>>First, however, thank you to everyone who sent me information or opinions
>>about painting a poly canoe.  It was useful.
>>
>>Second, if I had tried to paint the canoe, this weekend would have
>>"antiqued" it to death.  Only 10 to 13 miles, at least two of which was
>>dragging or carrying canoes over rocks or shallows.  A joy as the weight
>was
>>unusual as we took a great deal of water due to the weather.  103 degrees
>>actual temperature.  The owner of the property where we started stated
>>several matters which should have given us a clue.  {{{{Dam (our unexpected
>>takeout as everyone was in a state of collaspe) is "Oh, bout ten or so
>miles
>>or so.  Never been that far down river.  Suspect you will do a little
>>walking.  Don't expect no breeze between the steep banks."}}}}}
>>
>>The only point he was accurate on pertained to the breeze, and then only to
>>a degree.   As we melted, searching of a snippet of shade, we needed a
>>breeze or three to cool the sweat.  When we did hit water, and I mean where
>>it was of a depth where a paddle stroke would make the canoe go forward,
>the
>>wind was strong in our faces."
>>
>>Mother Jones raised a fool.
>>
>>Questions:
>>
>>Where can I purchase fresh buffalo meat which can be delivered via air for
>a
>>rendezvous?  What cuts do you recommend?
>>
>>Can you give me some suggestions for shooting events that are not, I repeat
>>not, related to paper targets?  The more historically correct, or unusal
>the
>>better.
>>
>>Thanks again.  I love this list.
>>
>>Mother Jones' Better Forgotten Son
>>Paul W. Jones
>>[e-mail]
>>
>>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 02 Aug 1998 07:48:53 -0500 (CDT)

Boys:  Think meat and more importantly, paperless shooting targets and
contests.  Do not, I repeat, do not spread that bloody poem.  Friendship and
Brotherhood has its limits.  Besides,I am "saved" as this weekend gave me
the John Wayne experience of drinking out of a hoof print.  Paul


>Lanny,
>  I thinks I got a copy of that bee-ute-e-ful tome around here some wheres..
>Reckon it oughta be shared with the list??
>Dennis
>
>>Pablo, ol' sod
>>Sorry fer yer troubles but at least ye warn't sleepin' with no grizzly
>bars.
>>I betcha ye wuz moppin' yore head with a blue hankie, too.  Reckon ye could
>>run me up a copy of thet real purty poem again?  I cain't find mine
>>ennywhar.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 02 Aug 1998 07:59:25 -0500 (CDT)

Dear List:  Responding to a friends post, and not paying the least attention
to the point of origin, I used a forbidden four letter word.  I just
realized my unforgiveable error, and I sincerely apologize to any and all
who are offended by the use of the word, and/or my inattention to protocol.

Paul
Paul W. Jones
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 02 Aug 1998 08:00:03 -0500 (CDT)

>Lietzau Taxidermy sells a "buffalo sampler" approximately 25 poounds of all
>different cuts and ground.  Air Freighted in dry ice.   PJ
>
>
Thanks for the information.  Paul




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 02 Aug 1998 09:17:06 -0400

But Pablo,
 The poem is an inspiring piece of art. You really think that I should not
share it with the liste..?? My, I believe that sounded like a not_so_veiled
threat...And to me that is a double dog dare..<G>
D


 >Do not, I repeat, do not spread that bloody poem.  Friendship and
>Brotherhood has its limits.  Besides,I am "saved" as this weekend gave me
>the John Wayne experience of drinking out of a hoof print.  Paul






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 02 Aug 1998 09:33:37 -0500

POTTY MOUTH!!!


-----Original Message-----


>Dear List:  Responding to a friends post, and not paying the least
attention
>to the point of origin, I used a forbidden four letter word.  I just
>realized my unforgiveable error, and I sincerely apologize to any and all
>who are offended by the use of the word, and/or my inattention to protocol.
>
>Paul
>Paul W. Jones
>[e-mail]
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: MtMan-List: Poetry(LONG)
Date: 02 Aug 1998 11:14:13 -0400

Pablo,
 This is for you.
:-pppppppp!
Love
D
"OLD BLUE HANKIE"

Memories of Two Beards, Two Dogs & Cutleg

A brigade of three trappers,
Rode up Pacific Creek.
To Rendezvous with Brother Trappers,
There that we would meet.

We were early for the Rendezvous,
So we would scout the Yellowstone.
But old Cutleg didn't want to come,
Said he'd ride the trail alone.

Old Two Dogs tried to warn him,
Said "There's Grizzly in these hills",
"Ole Ephrim he might get ya,
 Or your horses he could kill."

"To hell with the Griz" says he,
"And the Blackfeet too."
"I'm headed up Pacific Creek,
To be the first at Rendezvous."

Ignoring all our warnings,
In the rain he rode alone.
While Ole Two beards and Old Two Dogs,
Rode toward the Yellowstone.

We found him two days later,
At the junction of Gravel Creek.
Sitting by a pine tree,
Looking sad and kinda weak.

There was plunder scattered everywhere,
It lay out on the plains.
"He's kilt his horse" Old Two Dogs said,
"Or at least he's made him lame."

The saddle it lay broken,
"It don't look too good," I said.
I knew from the signs I'd seen,
Our Partner might be dead.

The horse had reared and thrown him,
And the saddle it had slipped.
It slid underneath her belly,
And too near of her hips.

She kicked and pawed her rider,
And the saddle too.
She broke up all his plunder,
That was meant for Rendezvous.

She left him bruised and battered,
And had stomped on both his feet.
Then headed off to be alone,
Somewhere down Pacific Creek.

Ole Cutleg lay there for two days,
And shot up in the sky.
Hoping to be rescued,
 So that he wouldn't have to die.

A Trapper rode right by him,
On a ridge way up high.
Ole Cutleg waved his blue hankie,
And the Trapper waved Good-Bye.

Well, now his wounds have mended,
And he's no longer weak.
But I'll bet he still remembers,
That time on Pacific Creek.

If you see a blue hankie waving Boys,
Always explore the source.
It might just be Ole Cutleg,
Who has fallen off his horse.

When you travel up Pacific Creek,
Or down the Yellowstone.
Take heed of this Warning Friend,
Don't ride up there alone.

By (TWO BEARDS) Rick Fisher








-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Two Paths Converged in a Wood
Date: 02 Aug 1998 15:01:46 EDT

Since we are waxing poetic, here's something for your enjoyment. This is a
poem that I wrote as a young teenager.  It's in free form verse, but the
experience was a moving one for me.  I actuality I was scared sh--less as I
only had a hunting knife with me at the time, and I shook for timeless minutes
before I beat a hasty retreat home, not wanting to be alone in the woods at
night with a wolf on the prowl.  The event occurred in the 50' in Illinois,
where the biologists said wolves had been extinct for decades.  Some of you
may have already seen it, as it was posted with permission in one of the the
NMLRA regional newsletters out west about a year ago.  I call it:

Two Paths Converged in a Wood

I sat
By the stream washed roots
Of a gnarly oak;
In that quite time in the forest
Before it comes alive.

It moved.
A tiny flit of brown
Emerged from the tangle.
Then another,
As the band of chipmunks emerged
For one last fling at day.

I sat.
Our eyes touched fleetingly.
They sensed not harm
And continued with the play
That insures a long, restful sleep.

It moved.
That long, dark shadow,
As it crept
Over the crest of the hill, unaware.
All grew quiet.

We sat.
Motionless, the dark killer
Moved from rock to tree.
His senses not yet alive
with our hushed presence.

He started.
The lean, gray wolf
Stood frozen.  In that instant
He knew he was not alone
As we sat, hushed.

We locked
Eyes.  He saw no fear.
I showed none; and he moved
Across the valley
And on his way.

Night fell.
With the renewed silence
That precludes the arrival
Of those nocturnal creatures
Who go about in the dark.

I left.
      Alone.......


OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants
Date: 02 Aug 1998 16:11:01 -0600 (CST)

>In a message dated 98-07-31 16:37:51 EDT, you write:
>
><< Since Miller (1837) and Bodmer (1833) each only covered one specific region
> at one specific time, I can't form conclusions on their observations being
> the rule for the "fur trade period" at large. >>
>
>   True enough.  I never intended to relate a conclusion that knee breeches
>and leggin's should be considered a rule.  Just that it may well be a good
>possibuility that they might have prhaps been more prevelant than might
>otherwise have been assumed.  At any rate I don't believe that they should be
>dicounted anf if you allready have the leggin's and aren't all that
>comfortable with the breechclout, then goinhg with the knee breeches would
>probably be a better route to go than to try and turn the leggin's into pants.
>   Also, the point that I was trying to relate that the writer of the piece
>was trying to make, was that a lot more consideration should be given to the
>sketches made on the scene than the paintings made at a later time.
>
>                                            Longshot


Well said.  Points well taken

"See you on the Green!"

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: gun cleaning with tow
Date: 02 Aug 1998 15:54:56 -0500

I know how to use a tow worm to clean a gun bore, but I have always
wondered how you get it dry enough and especially how do you get it oiled
thoroughly. I guess what I am asking is from a to z how do you clean a gun
bore using tow.
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants
Date: 02 Aug 1998 16:23:02 -0600 (CST)

Good point, John.  The leggings I recently aquired are the over the thigh
Plains type, which I tie to a sash to keep them up (a task in itself, let
me tell you.)  I use them with a wool breechclout.  I wore them all day
yesterday in 100 d. heat (West Texas, you know) and they were comfortable
with a capital C.  Good ventilation on a hot day at the cook fire (we had
steak and brats)  BTW I wore them with plains mocs and a CW military (Yank)
vest and slouch hat.  Black Indian scouts??  Ubet.  Field testing a new
outfit, as it were.

I have a pair of the SW calf-high style "botas d'ala" or "winged boots,"
sometimes simply called "botas" which I made about 13 years ago.  The
Eastern ones I don't have, but I don't need them anyway.

Good idea to distinguish the different styles of items which are often
given the same name.

Cheers,
HBC


>For some of the newer readers I think perhaps we should note there are several
>variations of leggings.  Some of the postings don't  make clear to which style
>they are referring.
>
>There are Eastern style leggings, Plains style leggings, and Southwest style
>leggings, and probably more style leggings.  Some come to the waist and tie to
>a thong or belt; some like Southwest are only calf high similar to women
>leggings. Calf high leggings are basically a rectangle of leather (sometimes
>decorated) which ties above the calf, perhaps for much the same reason as
>chaps
>to protect the riders lower legs in brushy country.  Waist high leggings can
>be: shaped or straight cut, with or without fringes, flaps, ribbons, bells,
>tassels, thimbles, paint, moose hair, quills or other decoration like buttons,
>bangles and beads.
>
>I hope this is clarifying, I am far from expert on all the variations and
>nuances of leggings.
>
>John...
>
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan pants(dye removal)
Date: 30 Jul 1998 23:53:01 -0600

I've tried the Rit Dye Remover with good results, both with a finished
garment and with hides.  My first pair of buckskin pants were of commercial
tan, which I later decided was dyed too dark.  The dye remover has changed
them to a pale buckskin color.  The dye removal had some slight
inconsistency that really only added to the worn and stained look.  I also
used it on commercially tanned hides I used for leggins.  These were dyed
the lightest buckskin or smoke color I could find, but I still wasn't
satisfied with the color.  The dye remover yielded a color I think looks
damn similar to the off-white of clean brain tan.  I made the leggins suede
side out and was really happy with the results. Now I just need to get them
dirtier!

Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833


-----Original Message-----


>Red Hawk writes:
>>  I purchase pure white deer hides and make the garment with the rough
>>  side out.  After that I soak it in a solution of tea and coffee.  This
>gives
>>  it the color of a very tan creamy brain tan.
>
>Even those white undyed hides are hard to come by back east.  All the
tanners
>either dye them pearl gray or golden orange.  Many have had great success
with
>Rit Dye Remover and do a batch of 10 dyed hides at the same time in the
>washing machine.  When the dye is removed, they tumble them in the dryer on
>low heat until they are dry.  The softness seems to remain after this
regimen.
>
>OldFox
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ken scott <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hunting pouch patterns
Date: 30 Jul 1998 22:07:44 +0000

Matt:

Glad that you are looking for a beaver tail hunting pouch pattern and
not a possibles bag pattern. Some people don't understand that there IS
a difference.

One of the best ways to develop an authentic looking hunting pouch is to
study the ones in your local museums or look at the old paintings and
etchings that show hunting pouches. Figure out the measurements and
sizes relative to the body of the person carrying it and start to work.

I've made well over 400 hunting pouches and one of the best resources
available is Madison Grant's book..."the Kentucky Rifle Hunting pouch"

That's a great place to start. Also check my website;
www.kenscottpouches.com

Best of luck on your endeavor.

Ken Scott



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: My reason for being on this list
Date: 29 Jul 1998 10:12:23 -0700 (PDT)

Some more comments on Gail's post:

>Seems that Jedediah got stuck a lot. And he died very >young as a
result of being stuck in the desert.

Smith was killed by Indians along the Cimarron cutoff on the Santa Fe
trail.  He wasn't stuck in the desert.

> At one point I became interested in Jim Bridger, but >he was such a
liar (teller of tall tales), who knows >what is true?

    Celcil Alter's (I'm not sure if that is spelled correctly)
biography of Bridger did an excellent job of separating fact from
fiction.  From what I have read, I don't think Bridger was any more of
a story teller than the rest of frontiersmen of the day.  Jim
Beckworth had a similar reputation.  It seems the ones who got the
worst reputation for story telling were the ones who were illiterate
and never had the chance to defend themselves in writing.

               Dennis

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: My reason for being on this list
Date: 29 Jul 1998 09:53:41 -0700 (PDT)

In response to Gail's post, I would say that the Hugh Glass bear
encounter story is is much more exciting than Jed Smith's encounter
primarily because of the survival ordeal after being left for dead
(left to die).  John Colter's "run" after being captured by Indians is
another good story.   If you want to include some famous battles with
the Indians you might pick up a copy of "Indian Fights and Fighters".
Two that stick out in my mind are the "wagon box fight" near Ft. Phil
Kearny, and the battle of Beecher Island .

             Dennis


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Invitation
Date: 27 Jul 1998 14:15:07 EDT

All are invited to the annual Old Trails Folklife Festival . It is held in
Richmond, Missouri on Oct 3rd and 4th. We have a rustic festival here each
year and invite black powder shooter and reenactors to join us. For more
information email [e-mail]. For registrations send name and adress to
email adress above. Thank you.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan-List
Date: 25 Jul 1998 20:31:41 EDT

MtMan-List:Poem


TRIBUTE

Jedediah Strong Smith!
Tom Fitzpatrick! John Fitzgerald!
Canyon winds in canyons herald
names of mountain fame and myth.

Provost, Colter, Glass and Kit
and Joseph Walker, first and last,
found an Eden, unsurpassed,
and freely fit inside of it.

Bridger, Beckwourth and Old Bill!
Joe Meek and the Sublette brothers!
A score, or two, of famous others
much too tough for minds to kill.

But they gone now, someone said,
Old Ephriam got 'em. Or an arrowhead.
Gone? Gone! Gone, my ass!
Listen to the wind in a mountain pass.

[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun cleaning with tow
Date: 02 Aug 1998 22:26:32 -0700

Pendelton:

Here's how I do it. I have a coiled, tapered, worm that twists onto the end of
my ramming rod with the brass end or onto my  extra wooden wiping stick. It
fists more securely on the wood rod but will work on either. I take a string
of tow as thick as a pencil, and about 6" long from a  bundle of tow and form
it onto the worm by twisting the rod. It will only work in one direction. I
will twist it until I get a ball shaped swab on the end of the tow worm that
looks like it will make a tight fit down the bore. If I'm gona do a quick job
of just taking the edge off the fouling in the bore, I will wet the tow swab
with a bit of water, saliva or even urine will work if need be. Then it is
just a matter of running the swab up and down a few times until most of the
fouling has been taken up. If a more thorough job needs to be done, why then
the tow may be untwisted and rewound to give a somewhat cleaner side to run in
the bore a few more times.

It may be desired to change the tow out once more but usually not more often.
At such time you may make a final swab and use it to apply some oil or grease.
If a very thorough cleaning is needed I will remove the lock and pour cool or
hot water down the barrel. I have been told that cool will work as well as hot
and that is probably so but hot water, if available, will dry out quicker.
With the water in the barrel, you may push the tow swab in and out a couple
times to flush out the fouling with good effect. Then of course, it is
necessary to make up dry swabs of tow to dry the barrel and one to oil or
grease the barrel. To deal with your concern as to getting the bore dry and
well oiled, you must make sure that your final swabs are constructed so as to
present a cushion of tow at the end of the rod that will reach the face of the
breech plug.

The swabs may be saved for future use by washing out in a bit of clean water,
wrung out and tied to the shooting bag strap to dry or in the case of the oil
swab, just stowed in the bag. Forming the tow into a swab takes a small amount
of practice but it is not difficult. The whole exercise is quit satisfying
simply because you are cleaning your fire arm the way it most often was
cleaned in the 1800's and before. I would not presume to imply that this was
the only way guns were cleaned, I'm sure that patches were used too.

I might add here that I use bear grease/oil or lard/beeswax/neetsfoot oil as a
patch lube and as a lube for the bore. The same  mix works as a fair moc
grease. I believe that such natural lubes in the bore seem to condition the
bore not unlike the conditioning of a caste iron skillet.

I hope this has been of use to you and I hope my instructions are
decipherable. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

yellow rose/pendleton wrote:

> I know how to use a tow worm to clean a gun bore, but I have always
> wondered how you get it dry enough and especially how do you get it oiled
> thoroughly. I guess what I am asking is from a to z how do you clean a gun
> bore using tow.
> Pendleton






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 02 Aug 1998 22:45:26 -0700

Paul:

You Might consider for targets things like: Mash mallows, small carrots, pitted
olives, cherries, soda crackers, red potatoes, small or large onions, pine cones,
briquettes, etc. You get the idea.

These items and others were used at the Pacific Nationals a few years ago for the
trade gun match along with throwing soda crackers as bird targets instead of clay
birds! It takes a special bird thrower but they work. Any way you use tooth picks
and nails to mount the above target materials onto logs or vertical poles or hang
from strings etc. Diabolical is what I calls it!

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> Boy were you right.  No buff as some yankee bastards killed them all for sport.
>
> Need the paperless shooting information as I will be range master at a
> rendezvous in October and I want to fuck over all of the elitist paper
> punching bastards.  One idea is "gentlemen, sit in the canoe.   on command
> you will realize Indians are attacking.  you will shoot at xxx target over
> your shoulder.  you will then lay flat in the canoe to avoid the arrows
> being shot at your ass and reload, points deducted for exposted body parts
> or weapons and on command shot at target xxx22.  Get the drift.
>
> Prices have been greatly reduced as to many of the fishing items.  Will call
> today when my hand is strong enough to lift the phone.
>
> Paul
>
> >Pablo...
> > Tolt ya there wern't no damn water left enough to canoe on....And whats a
> >matter..Loose your shootin iron in a crooked whist game? Caint shoot yer own
> >damn meat!?!?!
> >Dennis
> >
> >
> >   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
> >    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >Date: Saturday, August 01, 1998 9:14 PM
> >Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
> >
> >
> >>Regard to the List:
> >>
> >>Having just returned from the Canoe Trip From Hell, I have decided my
> >>remaining energy and ask two questions at the same time.
> >>
> >>First, however, thank you to everyone who sent me information or opinions
> >>about painting a poly canoe.  It was useful.
> >>
> >>Second, if I had tried to paint the canoe, this weekend would have
> >>"antiqued" it to death.  Only 10 to 13 miles, at least two of which was
> >>dragging or carrying canoes over rocks or shallows.  A joy as the weight
> >was
> >>unusual as we took a great deal of water due to the weather.  103 degrees
> >>actual temperature.  The owner of the property where we started stated
> >>several matters which should have given us a clue.  {{{{Dam (our unexpected
> >>takeout as everyone was in a state of collaspe) is "Oh, bout ten or so
> >miles
> >>or so.  Never been that far down river.  Suspect you will do a little
> >>walking.  Don't expect no breeze between the steep banks."}}}}}
> >>
> >>The only point he was accurate on pertained to the breeze, and then only to
> >>a degree.   As we melted, searching of a snippet of shade, we needed a
> >>breeze or three to cool the sweat.  When we did hit water, and I mean where
> >>it was of a depth where a paddle stroke would make the canoe go forward,
> >the
> >>wind was strong in our faces."
> >>
> >>Mother Jones raised a fool.
> >>
> >>Questions:
> >>
> >>Where can I purchase fresh buffalo meat which can be delivered via air for
> >a
> >>rendezvous?  What cuts do you recommend?
> >>
> >>Can you give me some suggestions for shooting events that are not, I repeat
> >>not, related to paper targets?  The more historically correct, or unusal
> >the
> >>better.
> >>
> >>Thanks again.  I love this list.
> >>
> >>Mother Jones' Better Forgotten Son
> >>Paul W. Jones
> >>[e-mail]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan
Date: 02 Aug 1998 23:04:15 -0700

Logtrail:

I did some searching for old friends of Ken Yellow Feather earlier this summer
and if I'm not mistaken (my memory is not the only part of me that is getting
shorter with age) I found out that yellow Pig was in a nursing home and not doing
well at all. I think he had suffered several very debilitating strokes. Now I
only say this cause if its as I remember, you would want to know for sure. So you
may want to investigate some yourself. Sorry to suggest bad news.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Longtrail wrote:

> Right Yeller Pig?????????????  Where ever you are.
>
>                         Longtrail






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man: Introduction and request for help
Date: 03 Aug 1998 03:24:50 -0400

I am another "lady" who likes to camp out in traditional style, without
a gentleman by the side or at home.  Welcome to the group....we need
more women.

Linda Holley




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 03 Aug 1998 03:50:10 -0400

No apologies needed to this person.  Just got out of the hospital and needed the
good laugh.

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

> Dear List:  Responding to a friends post, and not paying the least attention
> to the point of origin, I used a forbidden four letter word.  I just
> realized my unforgiveable error, and I sincerely apologize to any and all
> who are offended by the use of the word, and/or my inattention to protocol.
>
> Paul
> Paul W. Jones
> [e-mail]






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man: Thank you and question
Date: 03 Aug 1998 08:43:54 EDT

In a message dated 98-07-31 08:56:19 EDT, you write:

<<     My question is this:  How do I find information on voos and
 gatherings in my area?  And other like minded people?  I live in Iowa and
 the only gatherings I have found are at Ushers Ferry in Cedar Rapids and
 at Fort Atkison (sp?).  And everyone I spoke to was from someplace other
 than Iowa.   The only newsletter I found for Iowa is no longer
 being published, and I have not yet found a web list that shows anything
 for Iowa.

 thanks for the help

 your humble servant,

 Susan Gilbert
 She Has Old Hands
  >>
Smoke and Fire News, PO Box 166 Grand Rapids, Oh 43522, [phone].
Subscription is $18 per year great listings for North America.  Today thru Aug
2 Shin Bone Valley Rendezvous VIII, Gilbertson Ia,  Aug 14-16 Iowa Territorial
Historical Event, Ottumwa Ia. are two listings not to mention Minn, SD, Wis
and Mo.  Lots to do in your area with lots of listings in Smoke and Fire.

Your humble servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 03 Aug 1998 10:23:07 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-01 21:06:52 EDT, you write:

<<
 Can you give me some suggestions for shooting events that are not, I repeat
 not, related to paper targets?  The more historically correct, or unusal the
 better.

 Thanks again.  I love this list.

 Mother Jones' Better Forgotten Son
 Paul W. Jones
 [e-mail]
  >>

Feathers hanging from string in the wind is nasty.

I also collect weeds out back that have the round gall formed when a worm is
inside the stem.  The gall is about 1/2 to 3/4 inch in diameter.  I stick the
stem in holes in a board and number them so you have to call your shot.  As
the galls are brown they can be hard to see so the earlier you get to the
shooting line the better as you can pick a big one, if you wait to the end of
the shoot only the little ones are left.  If you don't have this type of weed
in your area just go for a walk with a bucket or sack out in the country and I
will bet that at the edge of a woods or meadow you will find at least three or
four natural targets that will drive your friends crazy when they try to shoot
them.

Have everyone notified that they will need to have a fork, knife and apple
when they come to the shoot.  Then have them spike the apple on their fork and
shoot the apple.  Or as a variation use their cup as a stand for an apple and
have them shoot the apple.  Lots of sales for the sutler with tin cups after
that shoot.

Acorns, hickory nuts etc. hung from a string are great out to 20 - 25 yards.
But is is even more fun if you can arrange the shoot so every shot is from
some odd ball distance.  To many guys (and gals) practice from set 25, 50, 75
& 100 yard lines and any change, like 17 yards, really messes with their
shooting.

Eggs set on the top of a stump or glued to a string and suspended are good.
If you tell the competitors to each bring an egg it saves you having to buy
them yourself.

Candle shoots are fun, you have to shoot out the flame but not cut the candle.
We have made wooden candles with replacable wooden flames for day shoots.  Or
you can set up real candles for a night shoot.  But if you are going to do a
night shoot make sure you let everyone know you plan to hold one so no one
drinks prior to the evening shoot.  A bunch of drunks with loaded guns in the
dark is a dangerous thing.

You can also set up a clanger (non historical) but then give them 3 minutes to
shoot and hit it as many times as they can.  Every hit is a point.  Usually
good at eliminating ties.

Strings stretched across the end of a stump make really difficult targets,
especially if you put the string at a diagonal.

Card shoot five card stud, take about 9 card and lay them out on a copy
machine to make the target.  Then each shooter gets five shoots to get the
best hand. You can do the shoot with real cards but it takes a lot of
setup/reset time.

Hope this gets you started.

Your humble servant,

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rob: Allan's 1804, report
Date: 03 Aug 1998 10:23:04 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-01 01:23:20 EDT, you write:

<<
 Does anyone have information on which cities had gas lighting in 1804?  Was
it
 only in London; or did NY, Montreal, or Boston, (or - ?),  also have the
 technology?
  >>

I know that in 1803 the Lycium Theatre in London had gas lighting and in 1816
the Chestnut Street Theatre in Philedelphia was the first theatre in America
to have gas lighting.  So the towns had gas generation/distribution at that
time.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "St. Joseph Museum" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Fur Trader St. Michael
Date: 03 Aug 1998 09:48:08 -0500

I have only been following the list for a few days, and you all seem to
have an interest in both reenactment rendezvous and history of the fur
trade.  So, here is my question:

St. Joseph, Missouri, sets on the Missouri River in a pocket in the
bluffs that has been traditionally called St. Michael's Prairie.  Early
maps  from as far back as 1792 show this area as St. Michaels Prairie.
We are trying to find out who St. Michael was and why his name was
attached to this area.  Our initial thoughts are that it was named after
the St. Michael family that were some of the early French settlers along
the Mississippi.  Since the St. Michaels intermarried with the Osages,
we think that some of the family members must have been traders or
trappers.  Does anyone know anything about an 18th century fur trader
named St. Michael?

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Jackie Lewin
Curator of History
St. Joseph Museum
http://www.stjosephmuseum.org




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation
Date: 03 Aug 1998 11:21:00 -0400

where is richmond mo--- will be in arkansas for the primitative deer
hunting season just about that time and might run up to your shoot---what
is the match entry fee--will be huntimg in north west arkansas about 20
miles from from mo line---please send info and regester for shoot---what
type of shoot and targets--are costumes required--is it shooting from
pouch or box--is knife and hawk included in the aggrigrate or will you
have knife and hawk matches---is flint and steel fire included in match.
is there a trade gun or smoothbore match---is there pistol matches----is
there shotgun matches---are there trade gun matches and what are the
requirements--IE no rear sight above the plain of the barrel--what is the
sight requirements for rifle and pistol matches---will ther be a buffilo
match and is there a 12 lb limit on the guns---

please send info-----\
          =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:15:07 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>All are invited to the annual Old Trails Folklife Festival . It is
>held in
>Richmond, Missouri on Oct 3rd and 4th. We have a rustic festival here
>each
>year and invite black powder shooter and reenactors to join us. For
>more
>information email [e-mail]. For registrations send name and
>adress to
>email adress above. Thank you.
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: grimsley pouches
Date: 03 Aug 1998 09:47:43 +0100

Someone asked if I'd ever seen a Grimsley pouch of
type that AFC could have bought.
Don't I wish!  If one exists it just might be
marked somewhere with his stamp, as his
saddles and other tack were marked, sometimes
multiple times.
The famous Denig pouch in the Kurz sketch might be
something like a Grimsley pouch.
Allen Chronister.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rob: Allan's 1804, report
Date: 03 Aug 1998 11:48:03 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-03 10:31:41 EDT, you write:

<< I know that in 1803 the Lycium Theatre in London had gas lighting and in
1816
 the Chestnut Street Theatre in Philedelphia was the first theatre in America
 to have gas lighting.  So the towns had gas generation/distribution at that
 time. >>

Aurora, Illinois was the first city in North America to have gas lightting.
It is known today as the "City of Lights."  I don't know when it was founded,
but most cities in Illinois date from the 1830's on.  A web search might
uncover this information for you.  I think the Chicago Tribune's site has mini
histories of most Chicagoland communities.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rob: Allan's 1804, report
Date: 03 Aug 1998 11:44:14 -0400

a lot of the gas lighting was carbide and water lamps with
reflectors---dont know the exact date for the carbide lamps but have one
dated 1830--simple lamps were made of a can with a hole in the top to
emit the gas----water and carbide rocks were added and the gass lit to
make the lamp----some did and some didn't even have strikers---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:04 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>In a message dated 98-08-01 01:23:20 EDT, you write:
>
><<
> Does anyone have information on which cities had gas lighting in
>1804?  Was
>it
> only in London; or did NY, Montreal, or Boston, (or - ?),  also have
>the
> technology?
>  >>
>
>I know that in 1803 the Lycium Theatre in London had gas lighting and
>in 1816
>the Chestnut Street Theatre in Philedelphia was the first theatre in
>America
>to have gas lighting.  So the towns had gas generation/distribution at
>that
>time.
>
>Your Humble Servant
>
>C.T. Oakes
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: grimsley pouches
Date: 03 Aug 1998 12:14:20 -0400

would like to see a picture or a sketch of the pouch you are speaking
of----

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 09:47:43 +0100 Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Someone asked if I'd ever seen a Grimsley pouch of
>type that AFC could have bought.
>Don't I wish!  If one exists it just might be
>marked somewhere with his stamp, as his
>saddles and other tack were marked, sometimes
>multiple times.
>The famous Denig pouch in the Kurz sketch might be
>something like a Grimsley pouch.
>Allen Chronister.
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan
Date: 03 Aug 1998 11:04:49 -0700

>Logtrail:
>
>I did some searching for old friends of Ken Yellow Feather earlier this summer
>and if I'm not mistaken (my memory is not the only part of me that is getting
>shorter with age) I found out that yellow Pig was in a nursing home and
>not doing
>well at all. I think he had suffered several very debilitating strokes. Now I
>only say this cause if its as I remember, you would want to know for sure.
>So you
>may want to investigate some yourself. Sorry to suggest bad news.
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Longtrail wrote:
>
>> Right Yeller Pig?????????????  Where ever you are.
>>
>>                         Longtrail

Thank you for the information.  I am wondering if we are speaking of the
same person.  Since I do not know Yeller Pig's real name, I can only ask if
the Yeller Pig your speaking of played the concertina?
Reguardless of which man it is, it is unfortunate to hear of his illness.
Also, I had met Yeller Pig in Oregon, did the Yellow Pig you speak of spend
time there?
      Longtrail





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan
Date: 03 Aug 1998 11:21:55 -0700

Longtrail:

Don't know about the concertina though I think he ran with 'Fiddlin Red' and Red
played the Fiddle. He was from somewhere up here in the Pacific NW so it may be the
same man. I probably met him too years ago but can't put a face to the name and
knew very little about him as it were. Sorry again for being so fruggal with info
and for being the bearer of bad news.

I remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Longtrail wrote:

> >Logtrail:
> >
> >I did some searching for old friends of Ken Yellow Feather earlier this summer
> >and if I'm not mistaken (my memory is not the only part of me that is getting
> >shorter with age) I found out that yellow Pig was in a nursing home and
> >not doing
> >well at all. I think he had suffered several very debilitating strokes. Now I
> >only say this cause if its as I remember, you would want to know for sure.
> >So you
> >may want to investigate some yourself. Sorry to suggest bad news.
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >Longtrail wrote:
> >
> >> Right Yeller Pig?????????????  Where ever you are.
> >>
> >>                         Longtrail
>
> Thank you for the information.  I am wondering if we are speaking of the
> same person.  Since I do not know Yeller Pig's real name, I can only ask if
> the Yeller Pig your speaking of played the concertina?
> Reguardless of which man it is, it is unfortunate to hear of his illness.
> Also, I had met Yeller Pig in Oregon, did the Yellow Pig you speak of spend
> time there?
>       Longtrail






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Gas lights....recission
Date: 03 Aug 1998 14:24:18 EDT

Sorry, folks
I made a hasty choice in posting that Aurora was the first city with gas
lighting.  I did a search and found them to be the first to have ELECTRIC
lights.

OldFox

"There have been many and varied mayors throughout the city's history. B.F.
Hall was Aurora's first mayor in 1857. During the 1870's and 1880's, Aurora
frequently stirred up the political scene by electing a new mayor every year.
Travis Phillips was mayor in 1881 when Aurora became the first city to have
electric street lighting. This is how the city got its nickname, the "city of
lights." Holmes Miller was mayor in 1886. His contribution to the city was the
installation of an electric fire and police alarm system."



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rob: Allan's 1804, report
Date: 03 Aug 1998 11:26:44 -0700

Keep in mind that theaters may well have generated their own gas for
lighting, well before public distribution. I read somewhere that the
first death by electrocution was a stage hand who leaned against the
terminals of a 200V dynamo being used for early arc lights in a theater
(well after our period of course, but shows that theaters were willing
to invest in "cutting edge" technology when it came to stage craft).
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, August 03, 1998 7:23 AM


In a message dated 98-08-01 01:23:20 EDT, you write:

<<
 Does anyone have information on which cities had gas lighting in 1804?
Was
it
 only in London; or did NY, Montreal, or Boston, (or - ?),  also have
the
 technology?
  >>

I know that in 1803 the Lycium Theatre in London had gas lighting and in
1816
the Chestnut Street Theatre in Philedelphia was the first theatre in
America
to have gas lighting.  So the towns had gas generation/distribution at
that
time.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Forrest Smouse <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: My reason for being on this list
Date: 03 Aug 1998 12:43:08 +0000



John Kramer wrote:

> Primary reason the Mormons burned his fort down was so they could control the
> western emigrant trade, folks stopped and bought supplies from him because the
> stories were better and his knowledge and information invaluable.  He must
> have
> done something right.  Brigham wanted his business.
>

I agree with what you said about Jim except for the above statement.  The Mormons
had already bought the post Jim and had built on to it, before the post was burn.
The reason the post was burn, was for fear of the U.S. Army (Johnson Army) on
route to Utah, as messages told to wipe out the Mormons.

Forrest #1691




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "L. A. Romsa" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Gas lights....recission -Reply
Date: 03 Aug 1998 13:13:39 -0600

Hmmm, I have always been understanding that the first electric street =
lights were in Cheyenne Wyoming! I guess I'll have to research some.

>>> <[e-mail]> 08/03/98 12:24pm >>>
Sorry, folks
I made a hasty choice in posting that Aurora was the first city with gas
lighting.  I did a search and found them to be the first to have ELECTRIC
lights.

OldFox

"There have been many and varied mayors throughout the city's history. =
B.F.
Hall was Aurora's first mayor in 1857. During the 1870's and 1880's, =
Aurora
frequently stirred up the political scene by electing a new mayor every =
year.
Travis Phillips was mayor in 1881 when Aurora became the first city to =
have
electric street lighting. This is how the city got its nickname, the "city =
of
lights." Holmes Miller was mayor in 1886. His contribution to the city was =
the
installation of an electric fire and police alarm system."





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan
Date: 03 Aug 1998 14:27:21 -0500

Longtrail,
Roger is right, Yellow Pig is very ill and in a nursing home. Fiddlin Red
used to hang with Crooked Neck and I ain't heard where they are now. If
anyone has Yellers address I would appreciate it AGAIN. Somehow in the mess
that followed the garage fiasco some of my papers were trashed as well and
I don't have it anymore. Oldtimers is catching up with me too!
YMDS,
YellowFeather

----------
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan
> Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 1:04 AM
>
> Logtrail:
>
> I did some searching for old friends of Ken Yellow Feather earlier this
summer
> and if I'm not mistaken (my memory is not the only part of me that is
getting
> shorter with age) I found out that yellow Pig was in a nursing home and
not doing
> well at all. I think he had suffered several very debilitating strokes.
Now I
> only say this cause if its as I remember, you would want to know for
sure. So you
> may want to investigate some yourself. Sorry to suggest bad news.
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> Longtrail wrote:
>
> > Right Yeller Pig?????????????  Where ever you are.
> >
> >                         Longtrail
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan
Date: 03 Aug 1998 14:33:01 -0500

Yeah he did. His real name is Jerry Williams. He used to be a phamacist in
Oregon. I think we are talking about the same Yeller. He also had a Harpers
Ferry that was stolen by some slimeball. It had NW coast carvings on it. If
anyone has knowledge of that rifle please let me know so I can scalp the
worthless thief!
YellowFeather

----------
> From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan
> Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 1:04 PM
>
> >Logtrail:
> >
> >I did some searching for old friends of Ken Yellow Feather earlier this
summer
> >and if I'm not mistaken (my memory is not the only part of me that is
getting
> >shorter with age) I found out that yellow Pig was in a nursing home and
> >not doing
> >well at all. I think he had suffered several very debilitating strokes.
Now I
> >only say this cause if its as I remember, you would want to know for
sure.
> >So you
> >may want to investigate some yourself. Sorry to suggest bad news.
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >Longtrail wrote:
> >
> >> Right Yeller Pig?????????????  Where ever you are.
> >>
> >>                         Longtrail
>
> Thank you for the information.  I am wondering if we are speaking of the
> same person.  Since I do not know Yeller Pig's real name, I can only ask
if
> the Yeller Pig your speaking of played the concertina?
> Reguardless of which man it is, it is unfortunate to hear of his illness.
> Also, I had met Yeller Pig in Oregon, did the Yellow Pig you speak of
spend
> time there?
>       Longtrail
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 03 Aug 1998 14:39:31 -0500

Paul,
As long as the four letter word wasn't WORK you are forgiven! Waugh, that's
the one that bothers me most.
Your most disobt. servant,
YellowFeather

----------
> From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
> Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 2:50 AM
>
> No apologies needed to this person.  Just got out of the hospital and
needed the
> good laugh.
>
> Linda Holley
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Dear List:  Responding to a friends post, and not paying the least
attention
> > to the point of origin, I used a forbidden four letter word.  I just
> > realized my unforgiveable error, and I sincerely apologize to any and
all
> > who are offended by the use of the word, and/or my inattention to
protocol.
> >
> > Paul
> > Paul W. Jones
> > [e-mail]
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: shooting pouch
Date: 03 Aug 1998 13:58:22 +0100

Someone asked about where to find the sketch of
Denig's shooting pouch.
Go to AMM web site.  On the menu go to "Gallery"
In Gallery go to "Sketchbok of Rudolf Fredrich
Kurz"
In the Kurz book go to plate 19.  And there it is.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: grimsley pouches
Date: 03 Aug 1998 14:43:28 -0500

Washtahay-
At 12:14 PM 8/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
>would like to see a picture or a sketch of the pouch you are speaking
>of----
>
hawk-if you've got a copy of Hansons "The Hawken Rifle:Its Place in
History"  look at page 34.
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Free trappers vs company men
Date: 03 Aug 1998 17:13:25 -0600 (CST)

Has anyone out there ever come across or done research on the proportion of
free trappers vs company men during the Rendezvous period of the fur trade?
A question was posed to me regarding which were the more numerous.  I
couldn't say, except that for there to have been more free trappers, there
would have to be thousands of them, given the size of those company
brigades.  Anyone out there have a clue.

TIA,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Free trappers vs company men
Date: 03 Aug 1998 16:26:22 -0700

HBC

Thanks for the question.  This is an issue that has plagued me for some
time.  I too would like and educated guess form the camp.

John Funk

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 03 Aug 1998 23:22:28 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-03 10:59:28 EDT, you write:

<< In a message dated 98-08-01 21:06:52 EDT, you write:

 <<
  Can you give me some suggestions for shooting events that are not, I repeat
  not, related to paper targets?  The more historically correct, or unusal the
  better.

  Thanks again.  I love this list.
   >>
i have read accounts by French officers on Colonial boys at shooting events
They would hold a square board between their knees while their  bretheren
would shoot it



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain
Date: 03 Aug 1998 23:23:41 EDT

Hi there

I was just re-reading Jim Bridger's tall tale about shooting at an elk and
discovering it was behind a mountain of glass. Now usually these tales are
based on some natural feature, such as the putrefied forest. Does anyone know
of a place called Glass Mountain? Maybe a big area of transparent ice or
something that would give rise to this tall tale.

Tom Laidlaw



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain
Date: 03 Aug 1998 20:53:30 -0700

Hey Tom:
    There is a glass mountain near milepost 77 on Highway 20 east of Bend,
Oregon about 30 mile prior to getting to Burns, Oregon. This tall butte is
composed mostly of obsidian. It shines pretty good!
    Kinda doubt that's what old Gabe was talking about tho.

Gail Carbiener
========================


>Does anyone know
>of a place called Glass Mountain? Maybe a big area of transparent ice or
>something that would give rise to this tall tale.
>
>Tom Laidlaw




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain
Date: 04 Aug 1998 00:08:34 EDT

In a message dated 8/3/98 9:05:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<<   There is a glass mountain near milepost 77 on Highway 20 east of Bend,
 Oregon about 30 mile prior to getting to Burns, Oregon. This tall butte is
 composed mostly of obsidian. It shines pretty good!
     Kinda doubt that's what old Gabe was talking about tho.

 Gail Carbiener >>
Hi, Gail

I'm also reading about Glass Mountain in California. That, too is obsidian.
Maybe Casapy just heard the name somewhere and made up his story. I've done
the same with less. See you at the convention.

Tom



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain
Date: 03 Aug 1998 21:26:55 -0700

Tom:

Might have been the outcrop of obsidion in Yellowstone Park. I can't say
exactly where it is but remember driving by it years ago. There apparently are
quit a few of these Obsidion formations in the west and no telling which one
Old Gabe was talking about but I'll betcha he was talking about one of them!

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warped barrel.....oh brother
Date: 03 Aug 1998 22:43:11 -0700

its not just salt you have to add the soap and sufactiant. it works i dont know
how but it works one of the reasons that i held back to putting this resape on the
list is some one maby you does not have the total resape ingrediants and shot from
the hipp. you are tring to invent the wheel again.  do it like i said or your
going to ruin some valuable stuff. metalergy is not one of my suits i got this
brew from clay spenser a blacksmith that invented this stuff. 10lbs salt 32 oz of
dawn dish soap 32 oz of shackley basic I no other. lots of luck sounds like you
need it. ive ben pounding on iron more than 45yrs and still dont know it all never
will.  iron tongue
brew is for mild steel.     mild steel   mild steel   mild steel








[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 98-07-31 10:23:01 EDT, you write:
>
> << sounds like you got a bunch of engineering background you gave out a
>  bunch of good info  all which seemed to be correct-
>
> Thanks, but it's years of heating & hammering iron as a paying hobby and
> working as a heavy equipment mechanic / welder / machinist to support my black
> powder habits --- and, of course, a lot of research related to both hobby &
> job.  The study of metalurgy, to me, is facinating!  Like -- what happens if
> you add .15% to .3% lead by volume to 4140 chrome moly steel???  It makes it
> machine better -- AND, even though lead isn't supposed to effect hardning, it
> WILL improve the hardning of this particular alloy.  Now comes the fun part --
> WHY????  Danged if I know, but it does!  This particular quirk defies all the
> rules.  Just a bit of trivia that's not realy related to our prefered time
> frame, but intresting any way -- and it also illustrates that we don't always
> get what we expect.
>
> < --got one problem with what you said---I am  going to use the common sense
> approach---the salt in the water will--yes make it hard---and brittle
> too--stands a good
>  chance in breaking his steel from being brittle after a few bangs with
>  the flint
>
> That was a recomendation by Jim Hrisoulas who's heated & hammered much more
> iron than I have.  It's also mentioned in M.T. Richardson's books.  The brine
> solution should only be used for water hardning steels such as the 1000 series
> & "W" series steels.  If you try it with, say "O-1", which is an oil hardning
> steel, your comments are entirely correct -- brine WILL give you SERIOUS
> problems!
>
> < with all this heating and cooling and quenching you are going
>  to pull most of the carbon out of the steel
>
> This can be minimumized by using the neutral or carburizing area of the flame
> / fire.  In the forge, the neutral area is in the middle of the fire &
> carburizing area is the upper portion of the fire.  Down at the bottom of the
> fire close to the tuyere where the air blast enters the fire is an ozidixing
> area of the fire & WILL DEFINITELY decarbonize the steel.  I've had some luck
> ADDING carbon back into steel by heating in the carburizing portion of the
> flame, but it's a tricky process of maintaining just the right heat over an
> extended period of time to allow absorbtion of carbon by the steel.  Basicaly,
> the same theory applies to crucible steel, but there you have an abundance of
> carbon from the charred bone & leather used inside the crucible with the steel
> coupled with the absence of oxygen.  If I'm using a oxyaccetelyne torch to
> heat with, I leave a bit of a white feather on the tip of the central light
> blue cone of the flame to create a carburizing flame.  Modern auto body sheet
> metal torch welds best with this type flame because of it's high carbon
> content.
>
> < I get many of a flintlock frizzen that people
>  have tried to temper or case harden and have screwed it up----too soft of
>  too hard and all the spark is gone----from the heating without the
>  forgeing all the surface carbon is burned out and what you have is a
>  mess---you wont know where to start to get it where you want it.
>
> Correcting someone elses screw-up is always guess work -- AT BEST!  Several
> times, I've had to "half sole" a frizen with a piece of file to get it to work
> right.
>
> < here is my best advice on the matter----iF YOU HAVE NEVER DONE THIS
>  BEFORE THEN TAKE THE "DARN" THING TO A BLACKSMITH AND TELL HIM ITS GONE SOFT
> AND HAVE HIM FORGE AND RE -TEMPER IT BEFORE YOU MAKE A MESS OUT OF IT
>
> This is realy the best policy!  Most of us who do this type work have, as
> you've said, already made enough mistakes to know what works & what doesn't.
>
> < A MANY A BOOK HAS BEEN WRITTEN ON THIS SUBJECT AND GETTING A STEEL TO THE
> POINT OF BEING A GOOD SPARKER
>
> I've discovered not all the books know what they're talking about either --
> that or they're so vague in their instructions it's still a lot of guess work.
> That's why I keep refering to M.T. Richardson & Jim Hrisoulas -- I've tried
> their suggestions, & they WORK!
>
> < ON THE WARPED BARREL THING---first check my last posting on the matter on
>  runout-- make sure that the runout is less than .010--USUALLY  a run out
>  of .010 is enough to be visable to the eye then to check if the barrel is
>  warped you can use a old gunsmith trick called the bow and string
>  method--
>
> I was going to say not to worry about anything under .003" since that's usual
> machinist tolerances -- + or - .0015.  I can see .003, but then too, I've had
> lots of practice.  My suggestions were based on the theorum that if the
> outside of the barrel is warped, the inside is too, & in most cases the
> outside is much easier to "eyeball".  A lot of people don't have the means or
> skill to pull a breech plug without serious damage to the barrel, so I hate to
> suggest it even though it IS the best way
> .
> <                      BOW AND STRING METHOD
> <                 TO CHECK FOR BENT OR WARPED BARRELS
>
> Now -- I learned somethin'!  8)  Thanks!  That's what this fourm is all about
> isn't it?  Exchanging knowledge & ideas so we can learn better ways to
> accomplish our goal of a proper portrayal of a specific part of history.
>
> NM






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warped barrel.....oh brother
Date: 04 Aug 1998 01:02:13 -0400

got it and am getting the shackley's---got the mild steel---mild
steel---mild steel
will send you a sketch soon---by snail mail---got your
addr4ess---appreciate the good ingo---will make good use of it---


      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 22:43:11 -0700 "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>its not just salt you have to add the soap and sufactiant. it works i
>dont know
>how but it works one of the reasons that i held back to putting this
>resape on the
>list is some one maby you does not have the total resape ingrediants
>and shot from
>the hipp. you are tring to invent the wheel again.  do it like i said
>or your
>going to ruin some valuable stuff. metalergy is not one of my suits i
>got this
>brew from clay spenser a blacksmith that invented this stuff. 10lbs
>salt 32 oz of
>dawn dish soap 32 oz of shackley basic I no other. lots of luck sounds
>like you
>need it. ive ben pounding on iron more than 45yrs and still dont know
>it all never
>will.  iron tongue
>brew is for mild steel.     mild steel   mild steel   mild steel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 98-07-31 10:23:01 EDT, you write:
>>
>> << sounds like you got a bunch of engineering background you gave
>out a
>>  bunch of good info  all which seemed to be correct-
>>
>> Thanks, but it's years of heating & hammering iron as a paying hobby
>and
>> working as a heavy equipment mechanic / welder / machinist to
>support my black
>> powder habits --- and, of course, a lot of research related to both
>hobby &
>> job.  The study of metalurgy, to me, is facinating!  Like -- what
>happens if
>> you add .15% to .3% lead by volume to 4140 chrome moly steel???  It
>makes it
>> machine better -- AND, even though lead isn't supposed to effect
>hardning, it
>> WILL improve the hardning of this particular alloy.  Now comes the
>fun part --
>> WHY????  Danged if I know, but it does!  This particular quirk
>defies all the
>> rules.  Just a bit of trivia that's not realy related to our
>prefered time
>> frame, but intresting any way -- and it also illustrates that we
>don't always
>> get what we expect.
>>
>> < --got one problem with what you said---I am  going to use the
>common sense
>> approach---the salt in the water will--yes make it hard---and
>brittle
>> too--stands a good
>>  chance in breaking his steel from being brittle after a few bangs
>with
>>  the flint
>>
>> That was a recomendation by Jim Hrisoulas who's heated & hammered
>much more
>> iron than I have.  It's also mentioned in M.T. Richardson's books.
>The brine
>> solution should only be used for water hardning steels such as the
>1000 series
>> & "W" series steels.  If you try it with, say "O-1", which is an oil
>hardning
>> steel, your comments are entirely correct -- brine WILL give you
>SERIOUS
>> problems!
>>
>> < with all this heating and cooling and quenching you are going
>>  to pull most of the carbon out of the steel
>>
>> This can be minimumized by using the neutral or carburizing area of
>the flame
>> / fire.  In the forge, the neutral area is in the middle of the fire
>&
>> carburizing area is the upper portion of the fire.  Down at the
>bottom of the
>> fire close to the tuyere where the air blast enters the fire is an
>ozidixing
>> area of the fire & WILL DEFINITELY decarbonize the steel.  I've had
>some luck
>> ADDING carbon back into steel by heating in the carburizing portion
>of the
>> flame, but it's a tricky process of maintaining just the right heat
>over an
>> extended period of time to allow absorbtion of carbon by the steel.
>Basicaly,
>> the same theory applies to crucible steel, but there you have an
>abundance of
>> carbon from the charred bone & leather used inside the crucible with
>the steel
>> coupled with the absence of oxygen.  If I'm using a oxyaccetelyne
>torch to
>> heat with, I leave a bit of a white feather on the tip of the
>central light
>> blue cone of the flame to create a carburizing flame.  Modern auto
>body sheet
>> metal torch welds best with this type flame because of it's high
>carbon
>> content.
>>
>> < I get many of a flintlock frizzen that people
>>  have tried to temper or case harden and have screwed it up----too
>soft of
>>  too hard and all the spark is gone----from the heating without the
>>  forgeing all the surface carbon is burned out and what you have is
>a
>>  mess---you wont know where to start to get it where you want it.
>>
>> Correcting someone elses screw-up is always guess work -- AT BEST!
>Several
>> times, I've had to "half sole" a frizen with a piece of file to get
>it to work
>> right.
>>
>> < here is my best advice on the matter----iF YOU HAVE NEVER DONE
>THIS
>>  BEFORE THEN TAKE THE "DARN" THING TO A BLACKSMITH AND TELL HIM ITS
>GONE SOFT
>> AND HAVE HIM FORGE AND RE -TEMPER IT BEFORE YOU MAKE A MESS OUT OF
>IT
>>
>> This is realy the best policy!  Most of us who do this type work
>have, as
>> you've said, already made enough mistakes to know what works & what
>doesn't.
>>
>> < A MANY A BOOK HAS BEEN WRITTEN ON THIS SUBJECT AND GETTING A STEEL
>TO THE
>> POINT OF BEING A GOOD SPARKER
>>
>> I've discovered not all the books know what they're talking about
>either --
>> that or they're so vague in their instructions it's still a lot of
>guess work.
>> That's why I keep refering to M.T. Richardson & Jim Hrisoulas --
>I've tried
>> their suggestions, & they WORK!
>>
>> < ON THE WARPED BARREL THING---first check my last posting on the
>matter on
>>  runout-- make sure that the runout is less than .010--USUALLY  a
>run out
>>  of .010 is enough to be visable to the eye then to check if the
>barrel is
>>  warped you can use a old gunsmith trick called the bow and string
>>  method--
>>
>> I was going to say not to worry about anything under .003" since
>that's usual
>> machinist tolerances -- + or - .0015.  I can see .003, but then too,
>I've had
>> lots of practice.  My suggestions were based on the theorum that if
>the
>> outside of the barrel is warped, the inside is too, & in most cases
>the
>> outside is much easier to "eyeball".  A lot of people don't have the
>means or
>> skill to pull a breech plug without serious damage to the barrel, so
>I hate to
>> suggest it even though it IS the best way
>> .
>> <                      BOW AND STRING METHOD
>> <                 TO CHECK FOR BENT OR WARPED BARRELS
>>
>> Now -- I learned somethin'!  8)  Thanks!  That's what this fourm is
>all about
>> isn't it?  Exchanging knowledge & ideas so we can learn better ways
>to
>> accomplish our goal of a proper portrayal of a specific part of
>history.
>>
>> NM
>
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 04 Aug 1998 01:23:12 EDT

in addition to the other great suggestions: spaghetti works great, and is
quite a challenge; also playing cards turned on edge can get men to swearin'
too.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Allen Hall)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Free trappers vs company men
Date: 03 Aug 1998 23:38:24 -0600 (MDT)

Henry,

At the 1832 Rendezvous, held in Pierre's Hole there were 15 free trappers
led by a man named Sinclair.  It seems everyone else there were company men.
Based on this, it appears that in that time frame, free trappers were a
minority.

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country

>Has anyone out there ever come across or done research on the proportion of
>free trappers vs company men during the Rendezvous period of the fur trade?
>A question was posed to me regarding which were the more numerous.  I
>couldn't say, except that for there to have been more free trappers, there
>would have to be thousands of them, given the size of those company
>brigades.  Anyone out there have a clue.
>
>TIA,
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 03 Aug 1998 22:54:38 -0700

Here's one probably all know about...take a double blade ax and sink 'er into a
round.  knock the handle out and put a target of some kind on each side.  If
you're lucky, your ball will split even and break both targets.  Now the blade
sunk vertical ain't too hard but horizontal can be a might tuff!  No fair
turning your shootin' iron sideways either!  WAGH!

Medicine Bear

[e-mail] wrote:

> in addition to the other great suggestions: spaghetti works great, and is
> quite a challenge; also playing cards turned on edge can get men to swearin'
> too.
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain
Date: 03 Aug 1998 21:50:27 +0000

The glass mountain was a large obsidian deosit         Hardtack

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:30:38 -0500
Date: 04 Aug 1998 06:27:34 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BDBF79.C71608E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For those interested, USGS geodata files can be downloaded free from the =
internet at:
http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/doc/edchome/ndcdb/ndcdb/html
Gecko Software sells LANDGRAB 98 USGS File Translation Package to create =
a basemap or a digital terrain model for any location in the U.S. within =
30 minutes for $159.95.
http://www.gecko-sw.com
Free software and trialware of the can be downloaded from Rockware, an =
earthscience software supplier at:
www.rockware.com
 The trialware programs are fully functional software that expire after =
a certain time period, enabling you to try our all its features.  When =
the program expires, simply contact Rockware for an unlocking code which =
they will trade for your payment.
The Rockware catalog also lists a program called TruFlite for Windows 3D =
Terrain Visualization,$295, claiming the power of workstation graphics =
on your PC.  It apparantly will print a near photographic quality 3D =
image of whatever terrain you select.  The Gecko looks like it will =
print a very good image, but it does not have the photographic quality =
of the other.  I'm only looking at images in the Rockware catalog, not =
at any images on my monitor so download the trialware and see for =
yourself.
I hope this information proves useful to somebody.
Lanney Ratcliff

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BDBF79.C71608E0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>For those interested, USGS geodata =
files can be=20
downloaded free from the internet at:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/doc/edchome/ndcdb">http://edcwww.cr.usg=
s.gov/doc/edchome/ndcdb</A></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/doc/edchome/ndcd/ndcdb/html">/ndcdb/htm=
l</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gecko Software sells LANDGRAB 98 =
USGS File=20
Translation Package to create a basemap or a digital terrain model for =
any=20
location in the U.S. within 30 minutes for $159.95.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.gecko-sw.com">http://www.gecko-sw.com</A></FONT></DIV>=

<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Free software and trialware of the =
can be=20
downloaded from Rockware, an earthscience software supplier =
at:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.rockware.com">www.rockware.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> The trialware programs are =
fully=20
functional software that expire after a certain time period, enabling =
you to try=20
our all its features.  When the program expires, simply contact =
Rockware=20
for an unlocking code which they will trade for your =
payment.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The Rockware catalog also lists a program called =
TruFlite for=20
Windows 3D Terrain Visualization,$295, claiming the power of workstation =

graphics on your PC.  It apparantly will print a near photographic =
quality=20
3D image of whatever terrain you select.  The Gecko looks like it =
will=20
print a very good image, but it does not have the photographic quality =
of the=20
other.  I'm only looking at images in the Rockware catalog, not at =
any=20
images on my monitor so download the trialware and see for=20
yourself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I hope this information proves useful to=20
somebody.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Lanney Ratcliff</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BDBF79.C71608E0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: My reason for being on this list
Date: 04 Aug 1998 15:31:11 -0500

There is more than one telling of the tale.

John...



At 12:43 PM 8/3/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
>
>John Kramer wrote:
>
>> Primary reason the Mormons burned his fort down was so they could control
the
>> western emigrant trade, folks stopped and bought supplies from him=
 because
the
>> stories were better and his knowledge and information invaluable.=A0 He=
 must
>> have
>> done something right.=A0 Brigham wanted his business.
>>
>
>I agree with what you said about Jim except for the above statement.=A0 The
Mormons
>had already bought the post Jim and had built on to it, before the post was
burn.
>The reason the post was burn, was for fear of the U.S. Army (Johnson Army)=
 on
>route to Utah, as messages told to wipe out the Mormons.
>
>Forrest #1691
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 04 Aug 1998 15:23:13 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Regard to the List:
>
> Having just returned from the Canoe Trip From Hell, I have decided my
> remaining energy and ask two questions at the same time.
>
> First, however, thank you to everyone who sent me information or opinions
> about painting a poly canoe.  It was useful.
>
> Second, if I had tried to paint the canoe, this weekend would have
> "antiqued" it to death.  Only 10 to 13 miles, at least two of which was
> dragging or carrying canoes over rocks or shallows.  A joy as the weight was
> unusual as we took a great deal of water due to the weather.  103 degrees
> actual temperature.  The owner of the property where we started stated
> several matters which should have given us a clue.  {{{{Dam (our unexpected
> takeout as everyone was in a state of collaspe) is "Oh, bout ten or so miles
> or so.  Never been that far down river.  Suspect you will do a little
> walking.  Don't expect no breeze between the steep banks."}}}}}
>
> The only point he was accurate on pertained to the breeze, and then only to
> a degree.   As we melted, searching of a snippet of shade, we needed a
> breeze or three to cool the sweat.  When we did hit water, and I mean where
> it was of a depth where a paddle stroke would make the canoe go forward, the
> wind was strong in our faces."
>
> Mother Jones raised a fool.
>
> Questions:
>
> Where can I purchase fresh buffalo meat which can be delivered via air for a
> rendezvous?  What cuts do you recommend?
>
> Can you give me some suggestions for shooting events that are not, I repeat
> not, related to paper targets?  The more historically correct, or unusal the
> better.
>
> Thanks again.  I love this list.
>
> Mother Jones' Better Forgotten Son
> Paul W. Jones
> [e-mail]
and to think I missed the canoe trip to take my family on vacation.
It was a hard choice, go to the coast or a canoe trip.
my wife won the battle. I was wondering how the trip went

Snakeshot #1593



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
Date: 04 Aug 1998 15:30:13 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Boys:  Think meat and more importantly, paperless shooting targets and
> contests.  Do not, I repeat, do not spread that bloody poem.  Friendship and
> Brotherhood has its limits.  Besides,I am "saved" as this weekend gave me
> the John Wayne experience of drinking out of a hoof print.  Paul
>
> >Lanny,
> >  I thinks I got a copy of that bee-ute-e-ful tome around here some wheres..
> >Reckon it oughta be shared with the list??
> >Dennis
> >
> >>Pablo, ol' sod
> >>Sorry fer yer troubles but at least ye warn't sleepin' with no grizzly
> >bars.
> >>I betcha ye wuz moppin' yore head with a blue hankie, too.  Reckon ye could
> >>run me up a copy of thet real purty poem again?  I cain't find mine
> >>ennywhar.
BEST LAUGH I'VE HAD IN A WHILE.

SNAKESHOT#1593



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: My reason for being on this list
Date: 04 Aug 1998 11:19:22 -0600

Welcome, Susan! I think, if your husband is interested, he could make a fine
trader-explorer. It's a little-known fact that the early (1780's-1820's)
explorers of the fur trade era did NOT work with a transit, rod & chain.
Instead, they used a sextant to find their latitude & longitude by celestial
navigation (then, it was called "practical astronomy"). You don't need a
horrendously expensive sextant to get started on this; a plastic "lifeboat
sextant" ($50-$100) and a bowl of water for an artificial horizon are enough
to get going. The modern techniquest of celestial depend on having an
accurate watch; however, Lewis & Clark, David Thompson, Alexander Mackenzie,
Simon Fraser, & many other early explorers did not have an accurate watch
(not invented yet!) so they had to use meridian altitudes and double
altitudes to determine latitude, and lunar distances to determine longitude.
The lunar distance method will work well with your husband's computer hobby,
because lunar distance tables haven't been produced for almost 100 years; a
computer program and almanac can be used to create lunar distance tables for
modern navigators trying to use the lunar distance method. (BTW, it's fun to
explain to folks that Local Mean Solar Time was what was on people's watches
until the 1860's, and the time on the visitor's watch is _at least_ an hour
off!)

Why do I know so much about this stuff? My husband has done a lot of
research & reenacting in this area. He has focussed on the work of David
Thompson, but lots of explorers used the same methods and worked for fur
trading companies such as the HBC and North West Company. Jeff has a great
time creating his map of North America based solely on his historic
navigational observations. For more info, see the web page
www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/nwj.html
and follow the links to the article on the navigational methods of David
Thompson.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE:  Mtn Man-List:  Smoking Buffalo Sh*t
Date: 04 Aug 1998 20:32:43 EDT

Just want to be sure I'm 100% correct on this.   I've never heard
of this,  but has anyone ever heard of Indians smoking buffalo
dung.    I know this was used as fuel in a fire in place of timber.
However,  I have this "know-it-all"  at work who is positive
that the Indians used to also smoke this in their pipes instead
of, or included in, their Kinnikinik.

Traphand
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE:  Mtn Man-List:  Smoking Buffalo Sh*t
Date: 04 Aug 1998 20:55:41 EDT

can't imagine smoking it,and it's NOT an ingredient in kinnikinik but it sure
does work great for fuel. don't think i'd wanna cook meat over an open flame
with it though.  also, cowpies work just as well at keepin' you warm in a
pinch.  PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mtn Man-List:  Smoking Buffalo Sh*t
Date: 04 Aug 1998 18:16:56 +0000

Traphand, I'll bet your friend watched the movie "the Mountain Men".
There is a scene in the movie where they are smoking.  Frapp=Brian Keith
asks what they're smoking.  The reply is Kinikkinik, he says 'tastes like
buffler shit', reply II = It Is!.....  this is paraphrased, of course, as
I haven't seen the flick in quite some time.  It is a reference to
Kinikkinic being buffler sh*t, but as usual Hollywood is not a good
reference.... Hardtack

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE:  Mtn Man-List:  Smoking Buffalo Sh*t
Date: 04 Aug 1998 20:39:12 -0500

Road Apples

John...



At 08:32 PM 8/4/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Just want to be sure I'm 100% correct on this.=A0=A0 I've never heard
>of this,=A0 but has anyone ever heard of Indians smoking buffalo
>dung.=A0=A0=A0 I know this was used as fuel in a fire in place of timber.
>However,=A0 I have this "know-it-all"=A0 at work who is positive
>that the Indians used to also smoke this in their pipes instead
>of, or included in, their Kinnikinik.
>
>Traphand
>[e-mail]
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain
Date: 04 Aug 1998 20:06:46 -0600

That mtn would probally be Obsedian Mtn in Yellowstone
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE:  Mtn Man-List:  Smoking Buffalo Sh*t
Date: 04 Aug 1998 20:09:58 -0600

Actually a small amt was placed in some pipes before smoking. Sometimes
before a buffalo hunt
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain
Date: 04 Aug 1998 22:17:43 EDT

In a message dated 8/4/98 7:10:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< That mtn would probally be Obsedian Mtn in Yellowstone
 Joe >>
Thanx, Joe and all who answered about Glass Mountain. The way I figger it, Old
Gabe warn't really lyin' it war jest his way of remembering landmarks.

Tom Laidlaw



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: MtMan-List: Ladle
Date: 04 Aug 1998 23:15:05 -0400

Lanny,
 This doesn't belong here, but I am too sorry to go downstairs to get your
private address....
 Yr iron pretty is winging it's way to the Rep. of Texas as we speak....
Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: games for the youngins
Date: 04 Aug 1998 23:31:44 EDT

I need a good resource and/or several suggestions for games.  I'm looking for
games which might be played at a rendezvous or such.  Age range:  1st grade
through high school (of course, they wouldn't all compete together).  All
boys.  Thanks in advance for all yer help.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins
Date: 05 Aug 1998 01:40:31 EDT

There is a game of rolling large wooden hoops with a stick (for speed,
distance); nine pins (bowling); another where you use a stick to both toss and
catch a weighted set of bags connected by a rope (can't remember the name), a
number of board games such as Pente' (also called five-in-a-row). If I can
think of others, I will forward the info.  Also have seen pick-up-sticks and
jacks type games in primitive versions.  Hope this is of some help.  PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins
Date: 04 Aug 1998 23:21:08 +0000

DPCRN,  I know that kids love flangin' sticks, ie Archery.  A bow and
some arrows goes a long way with juveniles, even us old ones.  Sack
races, 3 legged races, wheel barrow races, etc... provide alot of
amusement for youngster and spectator as well.    Hardtack

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins
Date: 04 Aug 1998 23:47:33 -0700 (PDT)

Check out the "Book of Buckskinning V" Pages 197-228.  The chapter is
"Games, Sports & Other Amusements" by George D. Glenn.  It has a lot of
games, some which would be appropriate for this age group.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________

At 11:31 PM 8/4/98 EDT, you wrote:
>I need a good resource and/or several suggestions for games.  I'm looking for
>games which might be played at a rendezvous or such.  Age range:  1st grade
>through high school (of course, they wouldn't all compete together).  All
>boys.  Thanks in advance for all yer help.
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The Northwest Company
Date: 05 Aug 1998 01:28:06 -0700 (PDT)

Hallo the Camp!

I'd like to thank those that responded for help on books for the NWC....
especially Jeff Powers and Jim Hardee, I managed to find;

The Oregon Country Under the Union Jack (Payette)
The Northwest Company (Davidson)
The Northwest Company (Campbell)
The Savage Country (O'Meare)

and a unexpected gem in the form of a 1934 Master's Thesis by a Jean
Nielsen, titled "The Operations of British Fur Trading Companies In
Idaho"... very cool stuff.

I have my reading material for the next month or so, so shouldna bother
anyone for a while <G>

As a postscript, the book on the NWC by Davidson... was first stamped as
checked out in 1919... talk about holding a piece of history.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins
Date: 05 Aug 1998 08:37:36 EDT

DPCRN: In a message dated 98-08-04 23:34:54 EDT, you write:

<< I need a good resource and/or several suggestions for games.  I'm looking
for
 games which might be played at a rendezvous or such.  Age range:  1st grade
 through high school  >>

One of the things I find with kids is that they grow so fast we often do not
recognise them year to year.  A close friend came up with one game this past
year that was fun for the kids and helped the adults relearn each kids face
and who they belonged to.  He set up a bead savanger hunt with about a third
of the adults in camp involved (of course the kids did not know which third).
The object was to complete a friendship necklace of beads but to get a bead
the kid had to go into a camp and introduce themselves by name, parents and
camp and POLITELY ask if they might be in the right camp to obtain a bead.
The prize was of course the bead necklace that they collected.  Kids loved it
and we adults sure did meet/re-meet a lot of polite nice kids.

Another fun time for younger kids is a candy or bead toss.  Take several straw
bales and scatter them about.  Then with the kids gathered round throw
handfuls of beads and candy (hard wrapped) into the straw.  Don't make the
beads too small or it is frustrating for the little ones.  As a variation we
sometimes load them into a morter with 30 grains or less of powder and fire
them down range for the kids to retrieve.  If you intend to do this experiment
before the event with powder charges.  Nothing worse then blowing all the
beads up in front of a lot of excited kids.

Home made bean bags are great for keep away.  Use squares of scrap material
sewn up with good old dryed beans or peas inside.

Make and fly kites.  Stiks, string, paper or silk like material and paste.
This is for the older kids.

Three legged races.

If it is really hot, have the kids run a gauntlet with everyone on the edge
armed with a cup of cool water.  To make it more fun have each kid try to get
from one end to the other with a hard boiled egg balanced on a spoon.  Fastest
time with egg in tact wins.

For the older kids a draughts tournament, remember it was not called checkers
in our time period.

If you have anyplace to fish, a fishing contest based on most caught is fun.
If you can get willow branches for poles with sinew for line, corks for
bobbers and hooks you have a primative setup that the kids can keep and reuse.
One word of advice if you think you will have a lot of kids or a lot of little
ones, order in barbless hooks.  With a lot of kids someone will hook
themselves, or their parent, and it is not fun for the kid.    Most any bait
shop can order them in for you if you give them some advanced notice.

Thats a few, I look forward to the other replies as our club can always use
more and new games for the kids as well.

Your humble servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain
Date: 04 Aug 1998 07:01:56 -0700

Tom wrote:
> I'm also reading about Glass Mountain in California. That, too is obsidian.

I've been to the one in California, it is located near Mammoth Lakes.
It is an obsidian dome that is about five hundred feet high and a mile
or so around.  I had hoped to lay in a good supply of obsidian for
making arrowheads but the quality of the obsidian was not very good, it
had a lot of impurities in it.

              Dennis



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE:  Mtn Man-List:  Smoking Buffalo Sh*t
Date: 05 Aug 1998 09:34:36 -0600 (CST)

>Actually a small amt was placed in some pipes before smoking. Sometimes
>before a buffalo hunt
>Joe
>

Joe,
If you could name a reference source on that we'd all feel a lot better.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins
Date: 05 Aug 1998 10:40:33 -0400

the foxfire books would also be a good place to look don't have mine
handy but know one of them has what she wants in the games or recreation
area---they are printed by bantom doubleday dell publishing group, 666
fifth avenue, new york, new york 10103

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:47:33 -0700 (PDT) zaslow <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Check out the "Book of Buckskinning V" Pages 197-228.  The chapter is
>"Games, Sports & Other Amusements" by George D. Glenn.  It has a lot
>of
>games, some which would be appropriate for this age group.
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>________________________________________________________________________________
>
>At 11:31 PM 8/4/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>I need a good resource and/or several suggestions for games.  I'm
>looking for
>>games which might be played at a rendezvous or such.  Age range:  1st
>grade
>>through high school (of course, they wouldn't all compete together).
>All
>>boys.  Thanks in advance for all yer help.
>>
>>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Watches (aka My reason for being on this list)
Date: 05 Aug 1998 14:47:11 -0600 (CST)

In a reply to Susan regarding an explorer impression, Angela wrote

"...however, Lewis & Clark, David Thompson, Alexander Mackenzie,
>Simon Fraser, & many other early explorers did not have an accurate watch
>(not invented yet!) so they had to use meridian altitudes and double
>altitudes to determine latitude, and lunar distances to determine longitude.

This is most interesting.  We take pocket watches for granted at events,
but the statement raises a couple of questions in my mind.

1. When was the pocket watch invented?

2. When did they become common enough to be carried by the average Joe
explorer or trader across the rockies?

In addition, who was likely to have a watch and who was not?

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Northwest Company
Date: 05 Aug 1998 14:54:26 -0600 (CST)


>
>and a unexpected gem in the form of a 1934 Master's Thesis by a Jean
>Nielsen, titled "The Operations of British Fur Trading Companies In
>Idaho"... very cool stuff.
>


Say, what university was that thesis written at? (please excuse the
preposition at the end of the sentence)

BTW, Lee,  Nice website.  It's been a while since I saw it, and It looks
different somehow.  Have you made changes?  You have a nice family, too.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
Date: 05 Aug 1998 14:33:41 -0600

Ho the List

Here's a question I've had on my mind.....

I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and rubbing in
ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?  Is white
ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or
descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want to
mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves don't
show up too well.

Any ideas ???

Red Coyote



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Norman Anderson)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches
Date: 05 Aug 1998 15:46:47 +0000

In responding to Angela's post, Henry wrote:

>This is most interesting.  We take pocket watches for granted at events,
>but the statement raises a couple of questions in my mind.
>
>1. When was the pocket watch invented?
>
>2. When did they become common enough to be carried by the average Joe
>explorer or trader across the rockies?
>
>In addition, who was likely to have a watch and who was not?

According to Richard Platt in The Smithsonian Visual Timeline of
Inventions, Christiaan Huygens of Holland developed a spring-driven pocket
watch in 1675.  It was supposed to be accurate within 2 minutes a day.  In
the same book, Platt states that in 1759 John Harrison of England won a
prize dating back 45 years for developing a marine chronometer that was
accurate to within 30 seconds a year.

In 1803 Meriwether Lewis paid $250 for a chronometer (the distinction being
its second hand) to take on his expedition.  "she rested on her back, in a
small case prepared for her, suspended by an universal joint."  This would
be like what was carried in naval vessels so the captain could accurately
determine longitude.  Before Lewis left, he had it calibrated by Andrew
Ellicott over 14 days who found it 15.6 seconds slow per day. (Moulton, v.
2, p 412)  Once it was placed on a keelboat and subsequent smaller craft as
the expedition proceeded west, it did not maintain its accuracy, and
occasional lapses in winding didn't help any.

Both Lewis and Clark carried watches; according to Donald Jackson, the
watch Lewis carried may be at the University of Missouri.  Both mention
them getting wet on occasion.  I haven't found whether anyone else on the
expedition carried a watch, but Clark has the striking habit when writing
in the journals of mentioning time.  "I directed Sergt. Pryor and Shields
each of them good judges of timber to proceed on down the river Six or 8
miles and examine the bottoms if any larger trees than those near which we
are encamped can be found and return before twelve oClock." (Moulton, v. 8,
p 208)  That doesn't prove anyone else had a watch, but it's an interesting
and regularly repeated precision for any waking hour.

Hope this is a step toward answering those questions.

Respectfully,

Norman Anderson







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches
Date: 05 Aug 1998 18:16:21 EDT

Per "The Classic Watch" by Michael Balfour, Pocket Watches were 1st developed
by Abraham-Louis Brequet (1747-1823) c.1770. He designed the tourbillon
escapement and also the "Tact" watch for the blind.  Also in 1770, another
Frenchman, Jean-Antoine Lepine devised a way to manufacture a pocket watch
that was much thinner. He (Lepine) also introduced hand-setting at the back of
the watch, cases with invisible hinges (so-called Hunters Cases) when closed,
and internal wheels with "wolfs' teeth".  In 1790, Jaquet Droz is credited
with developing the 1st wrist-watch. Swiss records show that by the year 1808,
there were over 3000 watchmakers in operation in the cantons of Switzerland.

I am looking for reference materials regarding common usage in this country
and specifically the Fur Trade, and when available, will provide it to the
list.    Hope this helps in the meantime.    PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "TERRI A ROSTER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
Date: 05 Aug 1998 17:32:24 -0700

UNSUSCRIBE

----------
> From: Sickler, Louis L <[e-mail]>
> To: 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
> Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM
>
> Ho the List
>
> Here's a question I've had on my mind.....
>
> I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and rubbing
in
> ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?  Is
white
> ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or
> descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want
to
> mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves
don't
> show up too well.
>
> Any ideas ???
>
> Red Coyote



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "TERRI A ROSTER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
Date: 05 Aug 1998 17:32:24 -0700

UNSUSCRIBE

----------
> From: Sickler, Louis L <[e-mail]>
> To: 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
> Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM
>
> Ho the List
>
> Here's a question I've had on my mind.....
>
> I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and rubbing
in
> ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?  Is
white
> ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or
> descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want
to
> mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves
don't
> show up too well.
>
> Any ideas ???
>
> Red Coyote



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins
Date: 05 Aug 1998 16:53:01 -0600

The hand game is a good one plus other game similar to this. I think of the
Indian book which has lots of games in it and post it later
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "TERRI A ROSTER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: UNSUSCRIBE
Date: 05 Aug 1998 18:28:02 -0700

UNSUSCRIBE

----------
> From: TERRI A ROSTER <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]; 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
> Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 5:32 PM
>
> UNSUSCRIBE
>
> ----------
> > From: Sickler, Louis L <[e-mail]>
> > To: 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
> > Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
> > Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM
> >
> > Ho the List
> >
> > Here's a question I've had on my mind.....
> >
> > I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and
rubbing
> in
> > ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?  Is
> white
> > ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or
> > descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want
> to
> > mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves
> don't
> > show up too well.
> >
> > Any ideas ???
> >
> > Red Coyote
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Northwest Company
Date: 05 Aug 1998 17:08:39 -0700 (PDT)

Hallo From Idaho Henry!

On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Henry B. Crawford wrote:
> >and a unexpected gem in the form of a 1934 Master's Thesis by a Jean
> >Nielsen, titled "The Operations of British Fur Trading Companies In
> >Idaho"... very cool stuff.

> Say, what university was that thesis written at? (please excuse the
> preposition at the end of the sentence)

University of Idaho, Moscow Idaho

> BTW, Lee,  Nice website.  It's been a while since I saw it, and It looks
> different somehow.  Have you made changes?  You have a nice family, too.

Thanks for the compliment on the family!  On the website...
it depends on how long since ye've dropped by Henry <G>  I've been slowly
adding to it this summer when I've had time so there's always something
new.  Working on info for our area posts at the moment.. Kullyspel,
Spokane, Salish houses etc. and trying to complete the section on Idaho's
Indians circa 1800.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
Date: 05 Aug 1998 20:30:04 -0400

engraving on black surfaces is not a uncommon thing--engraveing on a
buffilo horn is a bit different than engraveing on a white horn--have a
friend that is a master scrimshaw person---he will scratch on almost
anything he can get his hands on and have seen some of his black buffilo
horns that he has done and they are outstanding---he does not have a
e-mail address but can be contacted at the following

Kurtz Miller
The Curio Gallery
82 Spring Street
Eureka Springs Arkansas   72632
1-501-253-2094

suggest you give him a call and discuss what you want to do--tell him i
told you to call and depending upon his mood and how busy he is he will
discuss it for hrs or just give you a brief methodology of what you need
to do to make it look good---I feel sure he will help you out tell him
you are on the American Mountan Man chat session and that is where you
got his name and address and phone number---He is Big into that kind of
stuff ----even though he is not a member---
    YMHOSANT
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:33:41 -0600 "Sickler, Louis L"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Ho the List
>
>Here's a question I've had on my mind.....
>
>I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and
>rubbing in
>ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?  Is
>white
>ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or
>descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't
>want to
>mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves
>don't
>show up too well.
>
>Any ideas ???
>
>Red Coyote
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: UNSUSCRIBE
Date: 05 Aug 1998 19:36:01 -0500

Terri Roster,

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
<<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.co
m/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>
and follow the directions.

John...



At 06:28 PM 8/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
>UNSUSCRIBE
>
>----------
>> From: TERRI A ROSTER <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]; 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
>> Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 5:32 PM
>>=20
>> UNSUSCRIBE
>>=20
>> ----------
>> > From: Sickler, Louis L <[e-mail]>
>> > To: 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
>> > Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
>> > Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM
>> >=20
>> > Ho the List
>> >=20
>> > Here's a question I've had on my mind.....
>> >=20
>> > I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and
>rubbing
>> in
>> > ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?=A0 Is
>> white
>> > ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or
>> > descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want
>> to
>> > mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves
>> don't
>> > show up too well.
>> >=20
>> > Any ideas ???
>> >=20
>> > Red Coyote
>>=20
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches, sextants and books
Date: 05 Aug 1998 20:26:33 -0500 (CDT)


Hello the camp,

    This group is so great.  Thank you Angela for the suggestions and
web address.  An accurate timepiece is not a problem, oddly enough.  My
husband has an astrolabe that is a working copy of the one built by
Geoffery Chaucer (of "The Canterbury Tales" fame).  It is an amazing
device.  You take an altitude reading of the sun with one ring, move the
rings to align the day in the zodiac to that value on the face and read
the time on the outer ring.  Brian has an accuracy of within 3 minutes
using this thing.  This is my own very limited understanding of how it
works, so please don't quote me.
    I think this may be the way to include him, as he seems really
intrigued by this notion.  I will see about finding a sextant for his use.
    He also liked the idea of video taping some of the events.  He
suggested hiding a video camera in the case of a period box camera.  He
could then carry it around and set up the tripod and "photograph" the
procedings.  We will need to research the earliest use of cameras in the
field, as his character will need to fit that time frame, if he decides to
go that route.
    Also, a big thank you to whomever suggested "MANY TENDER TIES" as
a resource.  I ordered a copy and it arrived 5 days ago.  I read it in
several long sessions.  It is a terrific book and very valuable to me.  It
filled in several gaps in my quest for knowledge.

your humble servant,
Old Hands
Susan Gilbert







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins
Date: 05 Aug 1998 18:49:56 -0700

For games contact [e-mail].  She has a number of historic games
she has researched and organized for kids.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain
Date: 05 Aug 1998 18:53:09 -0700

There is also (probably one of many) a Glass Mountain in Modoc Co., Ca.,
south of Alturas: west of Likely and east of Medicine Lake.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE:  Mtn Man-List:  Smoking Buffalo Sh*t
Date: 05 Aug 1998 20:09:29 +0000

I may not smoke buffler dung, but my wife and I have eaten and cooked a
lot of meals using  cow dung as fuel and it made no difference in taste.
It makes wonderful coals and my wife would rather cook over dung than
some wood she has had to use.
DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY
LIving History Consultants----  We are not a trading company!!

jbrandl wrote:
>Actually a small amt was placed in some pipes before smoking. Sometimes
>before a buffalo hunt
>Joe
>
>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>Write for custom tanning prices
>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
>hair on robes
>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings,
baskets
>check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
>
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com
>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AF594450178; Tue, 04 Aug 1998 20:11:37 MDT
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1)
>    id 0z3t2V-0005ci-00; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:10:55 -0600
>Received: from (Mailhost.wyoming.com) [199.190.151.2]
>    by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1)
>    id 0z3t2S-0005cb-00; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:10:53 -0600
>Received: from [204.227.201.149] by Mailhost.wyoming.com
>          (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c)
>          ID# 601-42080U15000L1500S0) with SMTP id AAA754
>          for <[e-mail]>;
>          Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:09:58 -0600
>X-Sender: [e-mail]
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>To: [e-mail]
>From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE:  Mtn Man-List:  Smoking Buffalo Sh*t
>Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:09:58 -0600
>Message-ID: <19980805020956008.AAA754@[204.227.201.149]>
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>X-UIDL: 2035053017
>Status: U
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches, sextants and books
Date: 05 Aug 1998 21:07:03 -0700

Old Hands:

There were quit a few folks at the Rocky Mt. Nationals In Elk Park UT. this
summer using hand held camcorders. Not to say that all rendezvous will permit
that but the idea that it can't be done at all is not correct either. One
other idea you might consider would be to camouflage the video camera in one
of those fancy leather bags/boxes that were popular in the 18th and 19th
century, called I think cartushes or some such. Angela would know what they
were called. They were used like an overnight bag or gear bag.

The use of cameras in the field did not come about until the Civil War/War of
Northern Aggression. Cameras would be too modern for the fur trade or earlier.
Box cameras are permitted at western rendezvous but under very strict rules.
Personal cameras either video or still cameras must be hidden until the
picture is about to be made.

I am interested in getting started in some fancier navigation skills other
than simple piloting so I will be listening to this thread very closely. I am
taking notes! I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

S. Gilbert wrote:

> Hello the camp,
>
>         This group is so great.  Thank you Angela for the suggestions and
> web address.  An accurate timepiece is not a problem, oddly enough.  My
> husband has an astrolabe that is a working copy of the one built by
> Geoffery Chaucer (of "The Canterbury Tales" fame).  It is an amazing
> device.  You take an altitude reading of the sun with one ring, move the
> rings to align the day in the zodiac to that value on the face and read
> the time on the outer ring.  Brian has an accuracy of within 3 minutes
> using this thing.  This is my own very limited understanding of how it
> works, so please don't quote me.
>         I think this may be the way to include him, as he seems really
> intrigued by this notion.  I will see about finding a sextant for his use.
>         He also liked the idea of video taping some of the events.  He
> suggested hiding a video camera in the case of a period box camera.  He
> could then carry it around and set up the tripod and "photograph" the
> procedings.  We will need to research the earliest use of cameras in the
> field, as his character will need to fit that time frame, if he decides to
> go that route.
>         Also, a big thank you to whomever suggested "MANY TENDER TIES" as
> a resource.  I ordered a copy and it arrived 5 days ago.  I read it in
> several long sessions.  It is a terrific book and very valuable to me.  It
> filled in several gaps in my quest for knowledge.
>
> your humble servant,
> Old Hands
> Susan Gilbert
>
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Northwest Company
Date: 05 Aug 1998 09:00:28 -0600

Lee, I don't know how much help I can be here; I concentrate on reading
journals & such, but it sounds like you're looking for a book written by a
good fur trade historian. Jim Hardee's suggestions are good ones. Some
additonal comments on one of them, then my own suggestions:

>"Masson, L.R. "Les Bourgeois de la Compagnie u Nord-Ouest." 2 Vol.
>Antiquarian Press Ltd. NY 1960.  (Although som of it is in French, there's
> enough English to make it worth looking inot.  Contains a lot of letters,
> journals, etc.people like Alexander Henry, Joseph Frobisher, David
> Thompson and the like.)
Only two parts are in French--Masson's lengthy "History of the North West
Company" (about 100 pages), and the journal of Francois-Victor Malhiot. If
you have taken a couple of years of French, it's worth the effort to tackle
Malhiot's journal with a French-English dictionary at your elbow; the tenses
and sentence construction is really quite simple & straightforward. Malhiot
had an excellent perspective on the fur trade, and was a keen observer.
Masson was originally published in the 1890's, and so the editing is not up
to modern standards. Many of the journals and letters have been re-edited
and published elsewhere. For more details, e-mail me privately. This book is
fairly rare (both print runs were fairly small), and if you find it, the
library may not let it circulate. BUT it is really good, if you can find it!

My suggestions:
Mackenzie, Alexander. _The Journals and Letters of Sir Alexander Mackenzie_.
W. Kaye Lamb (ed.) Cambridge University Press : London, 1970. SBN 521-01034-9.
--Should be fairly readily available. Mackenzie was a NWC wintering partner.
If you're short on time, just read Mackenzie's  "General History of the Fur
Trade" in this book, and save the actual journals and letters for dessert
later. First published about 1802.

Ross, Eric. _Beyond the River and the Bay : Some Observations on the state
of the Canadian Northwest in 1811..._ University of Toronto Press : Toronto,
1970. ISBN 0-8020-6188-5.
--I understand this has been recently reprinted. It's packed full of
information on the fur trade and Western Canada as it was in 1811, written
by a man who loves the subject, and it's a very easy read. It is vitally
important to read the preface to this book first, or you will be very
confused by it! (I'm too tired right now to explain the issue clearly...)

Parker, James. _Emporium of the North : Fort Chipewyan and the Fur Trade to
1835_. Alberta Culture and Multiculturalism, Canadian Plains Research Center
: 1987. ISBN 0-88977-0441.
--The North West Company is revealed through an all-around "case study" of
its vitally-important Athabasca headquarters, starting with when Peter Pond
first opened the area to trade in 1788. Lots of economic details, as well as
a good introduction to the fur trade in general, and the NWC in particular.

As for journals, if you could read only one, I highly recommend :
Harmon, Daniel Williams. _Sixteen Years in the Indian Country : The Journal
of Daniel Williams Harmon, 1800-1816_. W. Kaye Lamb (ed.) Macmillan :
Toronto, 1957.
--Harmon worked across the whole of the NWC's territory, from Winnipeg to
Fort St. James, B.C., and his journal of sixteen years covers a wealth of
information not contained in the journals of most other NWC fur traders.
Should be fairly readily available.

Finally, IF you can find it (again, only a relatively small number were
printed), I highly recommend:

Henry, Alexander (the Younger). _The Journal of Alexander Henry the Younger
1799-1814._ Barry Gough, ed. The Champlain Society/University of Toronto
Press : Toronto, 1988. ISBN 0-9693425-0-0.
--I actually haven't read this edition completely, but it seems to be an
improvement on Elliott Coues' excellent edition. Henry, like Harmon, was in the
NWC for a long time, and wrote very candidly and in great detail about his
experiences. An great book, in two volumes, and well worth the time & effort
to read.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gail C Martini-Peterson <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #120
Date: 05 Aug 1998 21:45:04 -0700

Concerning the smoking of buffalo dung: I cannot imagine it. What would
be the point? Smoking transfers chemicals to the smoker through the
smoke. I doubt this was done by anyone. This is just my opinion, not
based on any historical fact.

Ask your friend why anyone would smoke dung. He probably never looked at
it that way.

Gail Martini-Peterson
[e-mail]

Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
there.
        Will Rogers



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Preserving a Snake Skin
Date: 06 Aug 1998 01:14:06 -0400

How did the Camp out go...give me all the dirty gossip and the clean.....  Will
you be at Cody.????

Linda Holley

Joe Brandl wrote:

> Phil,
> One of the best means of tanning a snake skin is by using glyerin, a hand
> softner. I usually get the kind with rose water in it as it makes the skin
> smell better. Use a pair of small scissors and cut the snake up the belly,
> be careful around the anus and on down the tail. pull the skin slowly off
> from the head to the tail. Once the skin is off, scrape any fat and
> conective tissure from flesh side. I like to use a paper stapler to staple
> the skin flesh side up to a pine board. Allow the skin to dry first than
> pour some glyerin on the skin and rub in. put on about 2 or 3 coats. allow
> each coat to dry, Use a razor to cut the skin from the staples. or you can
> pull all those things.
> Joe
>
> Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
> Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
> Write for custom tanning prices
> We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
> hair on robes
> Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
> check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins
Date: 06 Aug 1998 03:59:04 EDT

the name "j' was trying to get you to is SHINEANGEL, with an EL at the end,
not SHINEANGLE.  she has run the kids games at many a rendezvous, and does a
terrific job.  PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Larry R. Weisz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Thinking of you]
Date: 06 Aug 1998 08:03:47 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------20B150ACAFC080D3CCCA90FE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



--------------20B150ACAFC080D3CCCA90FE
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
Received: from MBN (209.100.82.3) by owc.net with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail
 Server 2.1); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:36:55 -0500
Received: from weisz - 209.100.82.169 by rsg.org with Microsoft SMTPSVC;
     Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:47:08 -0500
Message-ID: <01bdc137$05264c80$a95264d1@weisz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Return-Path: [e-mail]


-----Original Message-----


>An Angel to Watch Over You
>
>           Oooo
> Some people    (    )
>   come into our lives )  /
>     and quickly go. . (_/
>
> oooO Some people
>        (    )   become friends
>   \  (    and stay a while. . .
>    \_)
>
> leaving beautiful    Oooo
> footprints on our   (    )
>       hearts . . .      )  /
>               (_/
>
> oooO and we are
>        (    )     never
>         \  (    quite the same
>    \_)    because we have
>      made a good friend!
>
>
> Yesterday is history.
> Tomorrow a mystery.
> Today is a gift.
> That's why it's called the present!
>
>
>
> (\      /) TAKE THIS LITTLE ANGEL
> ( \  ___ / ) AND KEEP HER CLOSE TO YOU
> (  \  ( )  /  ) SHE IS YOUR GUARDIAN ANGEL
> (   /< >\   ) SENT TO WATCH OVER YOU!
>   (/  \/    \)
>     /     \
>    /       \
>       ( _______ )
>
>This is a special guardian angel . . . Pass this on to 5 people within
>the hour of receiving her . . . and make a wish.  If you have passed her
>on, your wish will be granted and she will watch over you forever.


--------------20B150ACAFC080D3CCCA90FE--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #120
Date: 06 Aug 1998 07:59:16 -0600

the old Indian people did alot of things we don't always understand.
Warrior societies were noted for doing strange things. I will go back and
document some of the notes from Ewers, Hassrick, Bowers and others.
Remember that many of the old people thought power came to them through
objects and animals by association. What we find strange and even gross,
was not to them. That is just the way it way. I post information as I find
it again in my notes.
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches, sextants and books
Date: 06 Aug 1998 09:46:56 -0600 (CST)

>Cameras would be too modern for the fur trade or earlier.

Point of clarification.  Photography (invented in 1839) would indeed be too
modern for the *Rendezvous era* of the fur trade, but they could be
permitted in the 1850s phase of the fur trade, having been well improved by
that time.  Bear in mind that only the Rendezvous ended in 1840, not the
fur trade proper.  Consider that the fur business was still going on at
Fort Union, and other fur trading posts well into the '50s.

I realize that semantics can be nitpicky, but we must keep in mind that
there was still a fur trade after 1840.  The rendezvous was replaced in
1840 by the revitalized trading post system, but the fur trade was not dead
by a long shot.  For the proprietors of Bent's Fort, built strictly for the
purpose of trading furs and buffalo robes, the year 1840 came and went
without much notice and little if any effect on the business there.  In
fact, one of their hottest years, economically was 1841, the year following
the end of the rendezvous.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches
Date: 06 Aug 1998 10:53:56 -0600

A brief response to the questions regarding watches. Yes, chronometers were
available by 1804; Lewis & Clark's were made by Arnoldi in London, and cost,
if I recall correctly, about 25 pounds. The difference between chronometers
& watches was, and is, their accuracy, rather than the presence of a second
hand. David Thompson & Peter Fidler did not use chronometers; they used the
cheaper "common watches" made by a London watchmaker called Joseph Jolly. In
July 1794, David Thompson received a 'second & Stop Watch with 2 Case
Val[ue] 12 pounds 12 shillings'; note that although this watch apparently
had a second hand, it was _not_ a chronometer. He had two of these when he
descended the Columbia River in 1811, and apparently never did buy a
chronometer. Watches were fairly common among the bourgeois of the North
West Company and officers of the HBC; watches being ordered from London &
sent back to London for repairs come up fairly frequently in HBC records for
the 1790-1810 period. I've got documentation for all this, but no time to
pull it out & post it today--maybe in a week or two. In January, I posted a
message from my husband about watches & chronometers, it should be in Dean's
archives.

In haste,
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks!
Date: 06 Aug 1998 13:59:57 -0700

Angela Gottfred,

I'm sure I speak for just about everybody on this list when I extend a
particular thanks for your wonderful efforts to keep us informed and honest.  I
particularly appreciate your tremendous enthusiasm for our shared fields of
interest and the informed scholar's view you bring us.  If the members of this
list were indebted according to the quantity and value of the information
provided here, we would all owe you (and several others too) big time.

I have no intention of singling out only one contributor to diminish the thanks
to any other.  I want to particularly invite my fellow lurkers and small
contributors to give voice to some of their favorites.  I can immediately think
of several folks here, not always academic by any means, who have given me their
special insights into history, gunsmithing and shooting, blacksmithing, woods
lore, cooking (historical and contemporary), native american culture, costuming,
tanning, beads, etc., etc., etc., in short all the topics that curiosity
discovers in our chosen field of interest.

So, thanks Angela, and I hope that this message spurs a prairie fire of others
to share their gratitude for you and the other special contributors that make
this list and this hobby so enlightening and rewarding.

Gary Bell, aka Heron

Angela Gottfred wrote:

> A brief response to the questions regarding watches. Yes, chronometers were
> available by 1804; Lewis & Clark's were made by Arnoldi in London, and cost,
> if I recall correctly, about 25 pounds. The difference between chronometers
> & watches was, and is, their accuracy, rather than the presence of a second
> hand. David Thompson & Peter Fidler did not use chronometers; they used the
> cheaper "common watches" made by a London watchmaker called Joseph Jolly. In
> July 1794, David Thompson received a 'second & Stop Watch with 2 Case
> Val[ue] 12 pounds 12 shillings'; note that although this watch apparently
> had a second hand, it was _not_ a chronometer. He had two of these when he
> descended the Columbia River in 1811, and apparently never did buy a
> chronometer. Watches were fairly common among the bourgeois of the North
> West Company and officers of the HBC; watches being ordered from London &
> sent back to London for repairs come up fairly frequently in HBC records for
> the 1790-1810 period. I've got documentation for all this, but no time to
> pull it out & post it today--maybe in a week or two. In January, I posted a
> message from my husband about watches & chronometers, it should be in Dean's
> archives.
>
> In haste,
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
> [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 09:21:37 -0600 (CST)

 John Colter's "run" after being captured by Indians is
>another good story.

Colter's story may not have happened as he told it.  The version we all
know was his story as told to Thomas James.  James then retold and
published the tale.  Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth.

The Blackfeet have their own version,  that Colter was let go as a living
no trespassing sign, in hopes that it would keep other trappers out of
their territory.  Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could have easily
killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to
others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds.  They
stripped Colter and sent him on his way to carry the "message," figuring
that by the time he reached the settlements he would be a (barely) living
warning sign.  Colter had plenty of time to concoct a face-saving story
that would make him seem more heroic, especially since he had to be the one
to explain why his partner was dead.  Logic dictates that the Blackfeet
version would be the more believable of the two, given that one naked man
running from several Blackfeet warriors sworn to kill him is not likely to
survive to tell the story, unless he was allowed to escape.

I'd be inclined to believe the Blackfoot version, and that the story we are
all familiar with is a product of Colter's own imagination.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 10:13:37 -0500

Couldn't the story told by the Blackfeet be equally face saving?  A naked
white man successfully making his escape from armed Blackfoot warriors would
have been extremely embarrassing.  Looks like one or other story is the
product of a nineteenth century spin doctor.  (...and all this time I
thought you-know-who invented that job description).   Mountaineers were
certainly not above spinning yarns or enhancing the truth to make themselves
look more heroic.   Jim Beckwourth's stories are commnly held to be
exaggerated at best, if not outright lies.   James Ohio Pattie's book is so
riddled with inconsistencies that at least one entire book is devoted to
debunking his version of his exploits.  I had a copy and have lost it and
can't remember the its title.  Anybody recall the name?
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


> John Colter's "run" after being captured by Indians is
>>another good story.
>
>Colter's story may not have happened as he told it.  The version we all
>know was his story as told to Thomas James.  James then retold and
>published the tale.  Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth.
>
>The Blackfeet have their own version,  that Colter was let go as a living
>no trespassing sign, in hopes that it would keep other trappers out of
>their territory.  Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could have easily
>killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to
>others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds.  They
>stripped Colter and sent him on his way to carry the "message," figuring
>that by the time he reached the settlements he would be a (barely) living
>warning sign.  Colter had plenty of time to concoct a face-saving story
>that would make him seem more heroic, especially since he had to be the one

>to explain why his partner was dead.  Logic dictates that the Blackfeet
>version would be the more believable of the two, given that one naked man
>running from several Blackfeet warriors sworn to kill him is not likely to
>survive to tell the story, unless he was allowed to escape.
>
>I'd be inclined to believe the Blackfoot version, and that the story we are
>all familiar with is a product of Colter's own imagination.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thanks!
Date: 07 Aug 1998 09:23:18 -0600

Thank you for the kind words, guys; I'm glad I'm able to help. Everyone on
this list has different skills; I love book research, but there's tons of
stuff I don't know. I rely on you folks to help fill in the many, many big
holes in my practical knowledge.

I think that thanks are also due to John Kramer, who has  used his own
research to spend a lot of time answering a host of questions about woodwork
& finishing "back then", questions I didn't even know enough to ask! And
Henry Crawford (HBC) has also been quite generous with his time and experience.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 11:32:40 EDT

In a message dated 8/7/98 9:39:15 AM US Eastern Standard Time, Henry writes:

<< -------(stuff deleted)--------Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could
have easily
 killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to
 others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds.-------(stuff
deleted)-------- >>


    This could very well be the case and I wouldn't even begin to try and
figure out what really happened or even try to argue the point.  Something to
consider though is that human nature is such that when we are outdone at
something, we start to concoct all "the reasons why."    How many folks ever
lost a race and then said "Well, I was just getting over a sprained ankle" or
"well, I felt sorry for him and let him win"   Something to consider.

                                                                           Lon
gshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 12:51:13 EDT

What a great thing this list is. I am at the moment preparing a talk about the
Mountain Men. As Crawford says the story may be apocryphal, but I had not been
able to find an alternate version. Now I can add this to my story. Thank you
very much.

<< Colter's story may not have happened as he told it.  The version we all
 know was his story as told to Thomas James.  James then retold and
 published the tale.  Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth.

 The Blackfeet have their own version, >>Henry B. Crawford

Tom Laidlaw
 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/tomactor/index.html">Tales of the Oregon
Trail</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run"
Date: 07 Aug 1998 13:22:04 -0600 (MDT)

>
>  John Colter's "run" after being captured by Indians is
> >another good story.
>
> Colter's story may not have happened as he told it.  The version we all
> know was his story as told to Thomas James.  James then retold and
> published the tale.  Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth.
>


Colter also told his story to Bradbury and Thomas.  See
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/colter.html



> The Blackfeet have their own version,  that Colter was let go as a living
> no trespassing sign, in hopes that it would keep other trappers out of
> their territory.  Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could have easily
> killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to
> others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds.

Interesting - where did you see that?  Did someone write down the
Blackfoot side of the story at some point?  It would be great to find a
historical source telling the Blackfoot's perspective on some of their
encounters with the Mountain Men.


-Dean



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run"
Date: 07 Aug 1998 12:46:57 -0700 (PDT)

> Did someone write down the
> Blackfoot side of the story at some point?  It would be great to
find a
> historical source telling the Blackfoot's perspective on some of their
> encounters with the Mountain Men.

I have my doubts about any contempory blackfoot accounts of encounters
with mountain men.  They basically killed trappers on sight which was
great sport to them.  You could send the message i.e. stay off our
turf, just as effectively by killing anyone you caught trespassing and
it was a lot more fun.  I have read many, many Indian accounts of the
Custer battle most of which were collected on of before the 10th
anniversary of the fight and while they agree on many points the
accounts themselves present a lot of problems.  The quality of the
interpreters was probably the biggest factor.  In Colter's time I
don't think there were any white men who had marriend into the
Blackfoot, lived with them, knew their language, and could translate
for them.  Sign language only goes so far.  I may be wrong here but as
I recall the Blackfoot remained a real problem until 1838 when they
were pretty much descimated by smallpox.  Like Dean, I would like to
find out the source of the Indian account mentioned previously.

              Dennis
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: James Ohio Pattie's book
Date: 07 Aug 1998 14:09:30 -0700

  James Ohio Pattie's book is so
>riddled with inconsistencies that at least one entire book is devoted to
>debunking his version of his exploits.  I had a copy and have lost it and
>can't remember the its title.  Anybody recall the name?
>Lanney Ratcliff


I believe it was the West of James Ohio Patty or something like that. I
once took both Patties Narratives and the other out of the library at the
same time and read them chapter by chapter together. Very interesting
reading that way. I highly reccommend doing so if you have access to both
books

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 19:15:50 EDT


I think it could make the story more exciting to tell the other side also. I
can't help but imagine the Blackfeet saying: "We'll chase him toward the
river. He'll probably get under that big raft of logs that always collects
down there..."

<< << -------(stuff deleted)--------Blackfeet oral tradition says that they
could
 have easily
  killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to
  others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping
grounds.-------(stuff
 deleted)-------- >>


     This could very well be the case and I wouldn't even begin to try and
 figure out what really happened or even try to argue the point. >>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller -the book
Date: 07 Aug 1998 20:46:16 -0600

Hello the list!

Through searching the internet, I located several copies of this book (The
West of Alfred Jacob Miller) by Marvin C Ross,1951 & 1968. Unfortunately,
they are out of my price range,$105-$255. If anyone on the list might be
interested in purchasing a copy, contact me offlist, and I will forward the
information to them.

YMOS,
Ron Chamberlain

P.S. I'm NOT associated with the bookstore that located these books.


<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/rendezvous.html>
Email <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller -the book
Date: 07 Aug 1998 20:33:39 -0700

Hey Ron:
    I got a book titled "Alfred Jacob Miller: Artist on the Oregon Trail"
edited by Ron Tyler. This book is 8 1/2"x11 over 400 pages. I quote from the
cover sheet:
    "Although Miller's paintings have been known for a number of years, this
is the first study of his entire career, spanning his earliest painting in
Baltimore, his two years of study in Paris and Rome, his Western trip, his
visit to Scotland, and his later career in Baltimore."
    This book was done in conjunction with an exhibition that traveled to
the Walters Art Gallery in Baltimore, the Amon Carter Museum in Fort Worth,
Texas and the Buffalo Bill Historic Center in Cody, Wyoming all in 1981-82.
I got the book directly from the Amon Carter Museum in Texas, it cost about
$40.00 can you believe it!! Call'em they may still have some left.
Gail Carbiener
-----Original Message-----


>Hello the list!
>
>Through searching the internet, I located several copies of this book (The
>West of Alfred Jacob Miller) by Marvin C Ross,1951 & 1968. Unfortunately,
>they are out of my price range,$105-$255. If anyone on the list might be
>interested in purchasing a copy, contact me offlist, and I will forward the
>information to them.
>
>YMOS,
>Ron Chamberlain
>
>P.S. I'm NOT associated with the bookstore that located these books.
>
>
><http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/rendezvous.html>
>Email <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: James Ohio Pattie's book
Date: 08 Aug 1998 07:48:45 -0500

That title rings a bell. That may well be it.  The book makes for very
interesting reading as it contradicts nearly all of Pattie's stories, one by
one.  It asserts that Pattie either was often not where he said he was, ( by
geographic impossibility or multiple conflicting information from trusted
journals, etc) or, if he was around, that he inserted himself into the
exploits of others and gave himself a heroic role in the episode described
by them.  However, he and his father did, indeed, travel extensively in the
west, becoming mountaineers along the way.  His father died before Pattie
returned home (to Missouri, if memory serves).  Pattie borrowed money for a
ship passage from Mexico and met a newspaper reporter to whom he told his
story for money.
Look for the book.  The author makes a compelling case for doubting
virtually everything Pattie said in his book.  If I run across my copy I
will post the title.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>  James Ohio Pattie's book is so
>>riddled with inconsistencies that at least one entire book is devoted to
>>debunking his version of his exploits.  I had a copy and have lost it and
>>can't remember the its title.  Anybody recall the name?
>>Lanney Ratcliff
>
>
>I believe it was the West of James Ohio Patty or something like that. I
>once took both Patties Narratives and the other out of the library at the
>same time and read them chapter by chapter together. Very interesting
>reading that way. I highly reccommend doing so if you have access to both
>books
>
>Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>
>AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
>"Aux aliments du pays!"
>
>Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
>Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Larry R. Weisz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: I apologize for sending the chain letter to the members of this list
Date: 08 Aug 1998 09:01:35 -0500

I apologize for sending the chain letter to the members of this list it
was a accident I hit the wrong line in my phone book. I am sorry for any
inconvenience this caused anyone. I really enjoy the forum and would not
want to displease anyone.
Larry



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: Colter
Date: 08 Aug 1998 14:07:38 -0600

Ok now, I have the "real" story, You see I watched a Disney movie about
this and since they "always" protray the truth.......

Johnny Colter, He liked to be called Johnny or JC for short, something his
granny started, got caught by the Blackfoot and they made fun of him by
calling him names like whitey, dog face and so on. Anyway, being the nice
folks that they were, they only made him strip to his underwere (modesty
was in then). Thinking a foot race might be sporty, the big chief gave him
a head start to the river. Johnny being a former Olympian for the US, ran
like a rabbit and soon out distanced all the those nasty Blackfoot. Once he
made it to the river, he swan over to a large beaver lodge, went up the
hole and crawled in with Chucky Beaver and his family. Now Chucky
recognized Johnny as a trapper even without his clothes. Chucky wasn't too
happy to have Johnny in his lodge. Johnny pleaded with the whole beaver
family not to give away his hiding spot. Chucky made him promise never to
hurt another animal again. Johnny agreed readily. Meanwhile the those bad
Blackfoot were looking all over for Johnny. When evening came, they went
home as they did not like to be out after dark without any candles to see
by. Someone could get hurt by falling down or running into a low branch.

Johnny stayed with the beaver for a couple of days, just swimming the the
little ones and helping them with the big dam project. Johnny didn't have
the teeth to help much with the wood sawing, but he could pack some big
logs and carrying mud in his mouth wasn't too bad after he acquired a taste
for it.

Soon it was time to go. Johnny bid Chucky beaver and his fine family adios
and headed downstream to the Yellowstone river and on to the Missouri. It
was a long swim and hike, but he was in shape. Word had spread to all the
forest animals that Johnny was a friend to all animals. They helped him
find food to eat and to use bark for clothing. When it was cold at night,
the bears would bed down beside him to keep him warm. When he lost his way,
the ravens showed him the way.

He finally reached the Missouri and found some other trappers building a
fort. He told them all about his experiences with the Blackfoot and the
forest animals. They laughed at him for a long time. But Johnny persisted.
Finally the leader of the Fort, Manual, gave Johnny some new clothes and a
job. He told him to go to the Crows on the Stinking Water and convince them
to come and trade at the new fort. Johnny thought this was a neat job, so
he went. Well, as the story goes on, Johnny completed his job very well and
returned to the fort. He was a bit discouraged and decided that he would go
back east and become a farmer and just grow crops for the animals. Johnny
died some years later and since then many folks have twisted his story
around and made him appear to be a nasty trapper who hurt animals and wore
leather clothes. but we know the real story!
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Windhams" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bison Meat
Date: 08 Aug 1998 13:30:41 -0700

Hello camp !

I've seen a couple people asking about Bison meat and where to get it. I've
found a local shop here in Calif. that does ship it and other forms of meat
all over the country . They have a web page , The URL is:
www.avwinery.com  . I'm not involved just thought I'd put it out there for
any one with an intrest.

Rick
aka blackhawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail
Date: 08 Aug 1998 20:17:38 -0700

Hello all:

    I'm told by reading the books that the beaver tail is a delicacy, but
the balance of the meat is not preferred if deer, elk, bear, etc. are
available.
    Can someone tell me how was/is the tail prepared?

Gail Carbiener



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail
Date: 09 Aug 1998 10:04:30 EDT


>    I'm told by reading the books that the beaver tail is a delicacy,
>but
>the balance of the meat is not preferred if deer, elk, bear, etc. are
>available.
>    Can someone tell me how was/is the tail prepared?
>
>Gail Carbiener

I've only gone on one rendezvous (I have no transportation so need I say
more?) but that rendezvous was truly memorable!  I did have what I think
was called beaver tail stew....ohhhhh it was delicious!  However I didn't
remember how it was made.  Iron Burner, did you remember how it was made?

Ted

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail
Date: 09 Aug 1998 07:03:53 -0700

>Hello all:
>
>    I'm told by reading the books that the beaver tail is a delicacy, but
>the balance of the meat is not preferred if deer, elk, bear, etc. are
>available.
>    Can someone tell me how was/is the tail prepared?
>
>Gail Carbiener

I have cooked it by skinning it and skewering it on a stick, then proping
it up near a fire close enough to cook it.  It is very greasy, sort of like
bacon so I don't think one would want to make an entire meal out of it.  I
have heard of oldtimers here in  central Montana having in the past been
served beaver tail in beans.
As faras the rest of the meat, I found it to be tasty.  Cooked in stews.
Last winter while skinning a couple beaver I kept the hind quarters aside
but after an hour or two of skinning and smelling the animal I was no
longer in the mood to eat it.               Longtrail



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail
Date: 09 Aug 1998 09:03:18 -0700

Gail Carbiener wrote:
>
> beaver tail is a delicacy, ---- how was/is the tail prepared?

My experience with beaver tail is very slim, simply put, I wouldn't eat
any.  It looked to me like it was mostly fat and not heart safe for an
old coot with a bad ticker.  Now days we eat the lean, in those days
they prefered the lard, in fact they had to have it for energy.
            DN



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David & Evelyn Mullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run"
Date: 09 Aug 1998 19:56:15 +0000

Lanney Ratcliff wrote:
>
> I had a copy and have lost it and
> can't remember the its title.  Anybody recall the name?


The name of the book is _James Patties West: The Dream and the Reality_
By Richard Batman. Also published under the title _American
Ecclesiastes: The Stories of James Pattie_.

--
David Mullen
202 Mesa Verde
Jemez Springs, NM 87025
505.829.3212
email:[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "WILLIAM P. GARRISON" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail
Date: 09 Aug 1998 17:20:44 -0600


------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC3BA.7EBD23E0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is an interesting subject. While I have never eaten Beaver tail I =
believe it was a desirable supplement to the Mountain Men and Indians =
diet. Most of the meat taken by both were mostly lean and fat is an =
energy food. Also if you have ever tasted a piece of meat that is lean =
and compared it to a piece with fat on it you have noticed the fatty =
meat is much more flavorful. Another thought is that the longer you =
spend out in the wild, and depending on how hungry you get, things you =
would normally turn your nose up to becomes mighty tasty morsels. I've =
spent considerable time in the field and have eaten plenty of beaver. =
Let me tell you how good Bar-B-Que Beaver sandwiches are not to mention =
the liver of fresh kill. The tastiest way to prepare beaver liver is to =
fry it, but on occasion when the cookin fat is all gone I have resorted =
to boiling in water flavored with salt , pepper and garlic. Ummmmm Good
   I hope this is helpful and gives some insight. Waste not want not.
  Y.H.A.O.S.
     Griz Garrison

----------
Sent:     Sunday, August 09, 1998 8:03 AM

>Hello all:
>
>    I'm told by reading the books that the beaver tail is a delicacy, =
but
>the balance of the meat is not preferred if deer, elk, bear, etc. are
>available.
>    Can someone tell me how was/is the tail prepared?
>
>Gail Carbiener

I have cooked it by skinning it and skewering it on a stick, then =
proping
it up near a fire close enough to cook it.  It is very greasy, sort of =
like
bacon so I don't think one would want to make an entire meal out of it.  =
I
have heard of oldtimers here in  central Montana having in the past been
served beaver tail in beans.
As faras the rest of the meat, I found it to be tasty.  Cooked in stews.
Last winter while skinning a couple beaver I kept the hind quarters =
aside
but after an hour or two of skinning and smelling the animal I was no
longer in the mood to eat it.               Longtrail



------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC3BA.7EBD23E0
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC3BA.7EBD23E0--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: eating beaver
Date: 10 Aug 1998 09:04:48 +0100

A spring or so back the UMO had its sometimes
annual beaver trapping outing.  The scenareo was
that we would bring no more than one day's worth
of food and stay for 3 to 5.  The plan was to live
off the land, and particularly the beaver
we hoped would come. Luckily for us, we had master
trapper Rod Douglas along and we took at least one
beaver a day. We lived off of beaver haunch boiled
in muddy runoff water.  How's that for tough?
Well, anyhow, the beaver tasted and looked like
dark meat trukey.  It is very rich and filling so
that a little goes a long ways.
It is clear from the extensive journals of the HBC
Snake Country brigades that they often depended
for food upon the beaver they trapped.  (Journals
of Ogden, Work).
As for the tail, there's not much there.  Mostly
gristle and thick skin with a taste like ripe
fish.  My theory is that the
beaver tail delacy story was just that (a story),
and I can't remember talking to anyone who has
ever tried to eat one who thought it was anything
more than extremely marginal food at best.  While
some small parts of a tail can technically be
consumed, the leap from there to delacy is a long
one. The haunch, however, is another matter.
Allen Chronister.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Eastern Leggings
Date: 10 Aug 1998 11:11:54 -0400

Does anybody have a simple pattern for Eastern style leggings as would be
appropriate for a Longhunter personna. All the patterns I have seen look
like chaps . I am looking for the thigh high type. I don't want to buy a
pattern as the construction seems simple enough. I just need some pointers
on the proper length and width and how to hold them up. Thanks.


Kirk Mill



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Leggings
Date: 10 Aug 1998 21:56:29 EDT

Look in:  "Indian Clothing of the Great Lakes: 1740-1840" bu Sheryl Hartman.
Good illustrations and directions!!!

Red Hawk

[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Aug 1998 02:10:30 -0500

Eastern leggins don't really go up thigh high,unless you mean about3-4"
above the knee. My (very old)instructions say "the legging should extend
one-third of the distance from groin to knee" not thigh high,sorry.
As for looking like chaps, they do have side flaps(I cut mine about 2")
unless you want center seam and the jury is still out on the documentation
for them.
On 1998-08-10 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >Cc: history mailing list <[e-mail]>
   >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8)
   >Does anybody have a simple pattern for Eastern style leggings as
   >would be appropriate for a Longhunter personna. All the patterns I
   >have seen look like chaps . I am looking for the thigh high type. I
   >don't want to buy a pattern as the construction seems simple enough.
   >I just need some pointers on the proper length and width and how to
   >hold them up. Thanks.
   >Kirk Mill

SOUFLE,SOUFLE  La VIELLE

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Old Time Remedies (fwd)
Date: 11 Aug 1998 08:08:55 -0600 (MDT)

Forwarded message:
>From [e-mail]  Mon Aug 10 23:16:56 1998
Message-ID: <02e001bdc4e8$3203ab80$bbb7cdcf@wmi-server>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3

Dean,

Thought this might be of interest.

OLD TIME REMEDIES

As they say as a disclaimer, "Don't try these at home"!

Knowing that our mountain men didn't have access to antibiotics, flu =
shots,
cough drops and many other things we take for granted, they improvised =
with
what was around them. Many times the cure was worse than the cause!
Physicians often used the same ingredients and carried herbs and =
supplies
with them in their little black bags. Here are just a few of the more
common remedies.

ACNE: Juice from the leaves of a rose hip bush applied daily over theca =
affected area.
APPETITE - LOSS OF: Boil two cups of dogwood bark with 2 cups of water =
and drink 3 times a day.
ARTHRITIS: Two tsps. of powder from a creek willow bark in a cup of =
water, drink morning & night.
ASTHMA: Make a pillow, about =BD inch thick and fill with rabbit =
tobacco.  This helps night attacks. Or take a stick the exact length of =
the sufferer, store it in the attic and the asthma would go away. Or =
wear amber-colored beads.
BALDNESS: Rub cow dung over scalp.
BED WETTING: Make a tea out of corn silks.
BIRTH PAINS: Put a knife between the straw-tick and the feather bed.
BITES - INSECT: Place a small amount of turpentine on the bite or hold a =
chaw of tobacco over it.
BITES - SNAKE: Slice open a live chicken and leave the intestines =
inside. Place over the bite to draw out the poison.
BLEEDING: Put chimney soot over the wound as needed; also cobwebs were =
used or a mushroom.
BLISTERS: Scrape two carrots, add 2 tbls. lard and 2 plaintain leaves. =
Stew & strain, apply to blister.
BLISTERS - FEVER: Put cucumber juice on them.
BLOOD - TONICS: The powdered red roots of a sassafras bush, drink 2 =
tablespoons a day.
BLOOD - POISONING: Use green berries from bullnettle and boil in a quart =
of water; drink daily.
BLOOD - PRESSURE: Chop several onions fine and place in a quart of water =
for a day. Drink a cup a day for a week.
BOILS: Take out the inner skin of a raw egg and place on boil.=20
BRONCHITIS: Drink a mixture of honey, lemon juice and alum. (Never heard =
of the alum).
BRUISES: One egg (shell included), 1 tbl. salt, =BD pint turpentine; one =
large cake of shredded camphor Gum, one tbl. coal oil or kerosene; one =
pint apple vinegar. Fill a bottle 2/3rds full, cork and  shake. Spread =
over bruise, do not bandage.=20
BURNS: Scrape the inside of an "arsh" potato until it is a pulp and rub =
on the burn.
CHIGGER BITES: Rub bacon rind over them.
COLDS: =BD cup molasses, 1 tbl. butter, 2 tbls. White vinegar cooked 10 =
minutes. Take 1 tbl. every hour. OR 1 tbl coal oil, one tsp. turpentine, =
1 tbl. lard. Heat and apply on chest as needed. Only wear red flannel =
underwear. Or, catch a sowbug and put in a bag and wear around the neck.
COLIC: 1 drop peppermint and 6 tsps hot water. Give 1 tbls. every two =
hours.
CONSTIPATION: 1 tbl. white mustard seed and 1/4th pint syrup; take 1 =
tbl. a day.=20
COUGHS: =BD pint whiskey, 2 boxes rock candy; =BD tbl. glycerin. Put in =
bottle and shake, 1 tbl. at a time.
CROUP: One piece of pine and wrap a piece of old bacon around it. Hold =
over coals and catch the Drippings. Give to baby as needed.
CUTS: Rub cow dung over the cut.=20
DIARRHEA: Boil the smallest roots of the blackberry bush in a quart of =
water until it boils down to 1 pint. Cool and strain, take 1-2 tbls 3 =
times daily.=20
EARACHE: Cut a twig from a hickory tree, hold over a stove until the =
sweet oil runs out. Use in ear. Or:  Pour warm urine in the sore ear.=20
EYES - BLACK: A peeled raw potato will draw the black out.
EYEWASH: Bottle March snow - save for use during rest of year.
FRECKLES: Locate a stump that has rain water standing in it and wash the =
face with the water.
HAIR - LOSS: One bottle of alcohol, one chopped onion, 20 white birch =
leaves. Bring to boil, let it sit overnight, then rub into scalp for 15 =
minutes.
HEADACHE: Put camphor on a dry cloth and tie around the head.
HIVES: Mix 2 cups of sheep manure to =BD gallon of water to make a tea =
and drink a cup 3 times a day!
INDIGESTION: =BD ounce rhubarb, =BD oz. Gentian root, =BD oz. Orange =
peel, 1 qt.Brandy. Drink as needed.
INFECTION: =BD cup epsom salts in a pan of water, soak.
INSOMNIA: 2" onion sliced  up and boiled in a pint of water, strain and =
drink as a tea.
ITCHING: Sulphur powder mixed with lard. Cover affected area.
MEASLES. To break out use a 8 oz. Glass of whiskey and add 2-3 tbls. =
sugar, fill rest of glass with water.  Or: use sheep dung and make a =
tea, drink tea. Chicken dung could be used also.=20
MOLES: Squeeze juice from a milkweed plant and apply to mole.
MUMPS: Mix 1 lb. Oatmeal and =BD pint yeast, heat and apply to swelling.
NAUSEA: Chew mint leafs.
NERVES: 1 piece rock candy in a jig of whiskey. Drink.
NOSEBLEEDS: Pour a gallon of milk on the back of the victim's neck. Or =
fold a piece of paper over and place on the upper lip; a bean will also =
work; or soak feet in cold water.
PNEUMONIA: Mash cooked onions and put between two cloths, fasten to =
victim's chest.
POISON IVY: Put washed leaves of a sweet fern in boiling water and apply =
to affected area.
RHEUMATISM: Boil dried apple peelings, strain, drink hot 4 times daily. =
Or: wear the front foot of a mole in a bag - a rabbit foot would also =
work. Or: turn your shoes upside down at night. Or put a  copper wire =
around the joint (sound familiar?), or carry sulfur in your pocket. Or =
break the ice and jump into the river. Or get stung by bees. Or blind a =
live toad and hold it over the aching place. Or put the entrails of a =
chicken on your feet. Or rub with raccoon grease, bacon grease, fishing =
worm oil, goat grease or skunk grease. Or: sleep with a dog or cat as =
the animal will take your pains away.
SHINGLES: Kill a black chicken by wringing its head off and while the =
body is still warm, rub over the affected area.
SINUS: 1 tsp salt and 1 cup warm water - sniff through nasal passages.
SORE THROAT: 1 cup vinegar, 2 tbls. sugar and a spinkle of black pepper, =
gargle.
SPRAINS: Soak brown paper in vinegar and wrap around affected joint.
STOMACH ACHE: 2 mint leaves in 8 oz. glass cold water, drink as needed.
SUNBURN: Cider vinegar to affected areas.
TEETHING: Boil catnip, steep, 1 tsp. at bedtime.
THRUSH: Let an old woman (preferably a witch) blow in the child's mouth. =
Or, let the seventh son or daughter blow. Even the breath of a jilted =
lover would work.
TOOTHACHE: Two cloves held on tooth.
WARTS: Rub castor oil over wart. Or take 9 grains of corn and rub them =
over the wart. Feed the corn to one old hen. OR: Steal a dishrag, rub it =
over the wart, bury the rag and when the rag is rotted, wart will =
disappear.

__
William Metcalfe
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 11 Aug 1998 14:17:18 EDT

Ho the list,
I'm sure this has been covered before, but I need to know how long "Calico"
shirts have been around.... and who makes the best drop sleeve calico shirts.
I need a green or brown one for hunting this fall..... looks nicer than camo.

Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ron Valley <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 11 Aug 1998 15:55:45 -0400

Steve,

Charles E. Hanson, Jr. did a excellent article in the Fall 1988 Vol.24 No. 3
edition of the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly (ISSN 0027-4135).  In the
article, he goes on to explain that Calico was first tried in England in
1696 and that printed calico's were "vigorously opposed by silk weavers in
England and printed cottons were not permitted until 1774."

By 1820, according to the article, Great Britain was exporting over 134
million yards of printed and dyed calicos annually.  The industry developed
rapidly in America and by 1824 the New England states were producing 60,000
yards per week.  The article explains how cotton's were printed by hand for
each color.  Several examples of the different calico prints are included
within the article, and it is most interesting to note the differences in
the print of the fabric destined for trade with the Indians.  As for who
makes the best drop sleeve....

Hope this has been of some help.

Ron Valley


    -----Original Message-----
    From:    SWcushing [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Tuesday, August 11, 1998 2:17 PM
    To:    hist_text
    Subject:    MtMan-List: Calico

    Ho the list,
    I'm sure this has been covered before, but I need to know how long
"Calico"
    shirts have been around.... and who makes the best drop sleeve
calico shirts.
    I need a green or brown one for hunting this fall..... looks nicer
than camo.

    Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 11 Aug 1998 16:08:13 -0500

Steve,

I have seen late 1700's Philadelphia newspaper advertisements for seven color
calico.  That's early enough for me.

Couldn't say who's the best, haven't seen every bodies work.  You pays your
money and you takes your chances.  Know when you ask a seamstress to make a
fine shirt and sew it all by hand it is going to be expensive because it takes
a lot of time.  Machine sewn shirts are accepted by most as a practical
alternative, even though those wondrous machines haven't been invented yet.

Go buy some 100% cotton calico in appropriate colors.  Fold a big hunk over
wide enough to wrap your middle and long enough to reach half way down to the
knees.  Cut a couple of rectangles big enough for sleeves.  Cut a hole for
your
head and stitch up and on  the sleeves and up the sides, fancy it up with
collars, hems, cuffs, drawstrings or such; or just tie the cuff with a thong.
You're done.

If you sew it all with silk, cotton or linen thread; by hand, it will be
exactly right.

Cloth by the yard has always been cheaper than finished goods, folks have
always had differing degrees of tailoring skills.  If you think about how
someone in the mountains might have met his needs and then work in the spirit
of the times, use materials and techniques consistent with what was available,
and do things the simple way they've been done for centuries, it's pretty hard
to go far wrong.  A hand sewn shirt was as expensive then as it is now, if you
examine the relative value of the money.  Those were GOLD dollars they were
spending.  There are extensive postings in Dean's archives about monetary
values as related to blankets in 1837.

Of course if you portray William Drummond Stewart this shirt is not
appropriate.  There was only one of him: the hundreds were the camp keepers
and
company men for them this is entirely appropriate, they needed shirts too.  If
they bought a little cloth instead of a shirt, they could buy a little more
whiskey.  They had time to stitch it up while they drank the whiskey.

John...


At 02:17 PM 8/11/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Ho the list,
>I'm sure this has been covered before, but I need to know how long "Calico"
>shirts have been around.... and who makes the best drop sleeve calico shirts.
>I need a green or brown one for hunting this fall..... looks nicer than camo.
>
>Steve
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 11 Aug 1998 15:43:03 EDT

 Steve, here are a couple of good links to sutlers that supply the type shirts
you're looking for. Hope this helps.  RR.
<A HREF="http://www.jastown.com/">Jas. Townsend & Son, Inc. Home Page</A>
<A HREF="http://www.patchworks-usa.com/">Patchworks-Historic Fabrics</A>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cloth
Date: 11 Aug 1998 19:09:06 +0000

Ran in to a question this weekend that I am not sure of, which cloth was
the least expensive and most likely to have been used in the north and
west by the Indians pre 1800's.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY
LIving History Consultants----  We are not a trading company!!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject)
Date: 11 Aug 1998 21:31:29 EDT


  Are you still interested in Liver Eating Johnston? I just completed a new
biography on him. e-mail me when you can.

Dennis McLelland



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Lewis and Clark Journals
Date: 11 Aug 1998 22:50:49 -0600

>Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:25:00 -0500
>From: A Corbitt <[e-mail]>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT  (Win95; U)
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Lewis and Clark Journals
>X-URL: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch4/msg00666.html
>
>Has the cd-rom version of these journals been released?
>Any information would be appreciated.
>Joel C Corbitt
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: paul mueller <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: sewing machine
Date: 12 Aug 1998 11:49:30 -0400

John Kramer wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> I have seen late 1700's Philadelphia newspaper advertisements for seven color
> calico.  That's early enough for me.
>
> Couldn't say who's the best, haven't seen every bodies work.  You pays your
> money and you takes your chances.  Know when you ask a seamstress to make a
> fine shirt and sew it all by hand it is going to be expensive because it takes
> a lot of time.  Machine sewn shirts are accepted by most as a practical
> alternative, even though those wondrous machines haven't been invented yet.
>
> Go buy some 100% cotton calico in appropriate colors.  Fold a big hunk over
> wide enough to wrap your middle and long enough to reach half way down to the
> knees.  Cut a couple of rectangles big enough for sleeves.  Cut a hole for
> your
> head and stitch up and on  the sleeves and up the sides, fancy it up with
> collars, hems, cuffs, drawstrings or such; or just tie the cuff with a thong.
> You're done.
>
> If you sew it all with silk, cotton or linen thread; by hand, it will be
> exactly right.
>
> Cloth by the yard has always been cheaper than finished goods, folks have
> always had differing degrees of tailoring skills.  If you think about how
> someone in the mountains might have met his needs and then work in the spirit
> of the times, use materials and techniques consistent with what was available,
> and do things the simple way they've been done for centuries, it's pretty hard
> to go far wrong.  A hand sewn shirt was as expensive then as it is now, if you
> examine the relative value of the money.  Those were GOLD dollars they were
> spending.  There are extensive postings in Dean's archives about monetary
> values as related to blankets in 1837.
>
> Of course if you portray William Drummond Stewart this shirt is not
> appropriate.  There was only one of him: the hundreds were the camp keepers
> and
> company men for them this is entirely appropriate, they needed shirts too.  If
> they bought a little cloth instead of a shirt, they could buy a little more
> whiskey.  They had time to stitch it up while they drank the whiskey.
>
> John...
>
> At 02:17 PM 8/11/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >Ho the list,
> >I'm sure this has been covered before, but I need to know how long "Calico"
> >shirts have been around.... and who makes the best drop sleeve calico shirts.
> >I need a green or brown one for hunting this fall..... looks nicer than camo.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
> John Kramer  <[e-mail]>


    John,
 sorry to say but a type of sewing machine was invented and used.in
1790 thomas saint patened an apparatus which sewed and had many of the
features of the modern chain stitch machine but not with a eye in the
needle. barthe'lemy thimmonier  patened the modern sewing machine in
1830 and it had an eye in the needle as it was called a sewing machine.
the item that saint had was about the size if a small room so it was
very uncommon for it to be used but it was there in the time frame.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 12 Aug 1998 15:25:45 -0600 (CST)

>Ho the list,
>I'm sure this has been covered before, but I need to know how long "Calico"
>shirts have been around.... and who makes the best drop sleeve calico shirts.
>I need a green or brown one for hunting this fall..... looks nicer than camo.
>
>Steve

Calico cloth has been around for a long time, at least since the British
cotton trade out of India in the 17th century.  The word calico comes from
Calcutta, from which the  cloth was exported.  Calico, defined, is any
printed cotton cloth.  It goes beyond the cloth printed with the little
tiny flowers we're so used to seeing at events.  Gingham (picnic tablecloth
pattern) is a good example of a period pattern, and is a good place to
start.  Most fabric stores stock printed cotton cloth, and it's usually
very inexpensive.  Do some research on print patterns and then visit your
local cloth store.

I know I didn't answer your question, but just yesterday I borrowed some
books from the Tech library on 19th century women's fashions and period
textile design so my wife can have another dress made.  There are lots of
resources out there on the history of fabrics and textiles.  One book that
works well is _Calico Chronicle_ by Betty Mills (1985).  Betty used to be a
curator here till she retired.  She still lives in town.  The book is still
in print.  Also the Amanda paper doll series is good, and well documented.
All or most examples are from our museum collection.  _Buckskin and
Homespun_, by David Holman and Billie Parsons (1979) is another well
documented book that deals with mid 19th c. frontier clothing styles and
fabrics.  It's out of print, but should be available thru interlibrary
loan.

Green calico in lieu of camo seems a good way to go.  Could be one reason
why the trappers seemed to prefer prints to solids.

As for the best, I don't know.  My shirts suit me, and they are
historically correct.  Whether they are the best or not, that's for someone
else to say.

Cheers,
HBC



*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Magazine Sale
Date: 12 Aug 1998 19:37:00 -0500

Washtahay-
    Got a bunch of ML and BPC magazines I am throwing out on the blanket.  If
you are interested, drop me a note off-line.
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 12 Aug 1998 22:10:08 EDT

Hi all,  I am going through a buckskinners mid-life crisis.  I have been
buckskinning for a little over ten years now and have gone through a lot of
the transitions that many of you have been through.  I started out with the
machine sewn, gold tan buckskins and T&C hawken and have slowly migrated to
smoke tan hand sewn buckskins and a flintlock.  I had it in my mind that I
wanted to emulate the western fur trade around the 1830's, but I find that
many of my tastes are drawn to the eastern woodsman.  I was intrigued by the
discussion about eastern influences on the western mountain man.  The question
I would like to pose to the list is this, how did you arive at your persona?
What were the influences, feelings, and reasons that made you settle on a
certain era.  I intially chose the western fur trade because I have grown up
in the west, however, I had relatives who fought in the revolution and I am
silently drawn to them as well.  I have been contemplating changing my focus
to that of a newly arrived easterner in the western mountains in the early
early 1800's.  Does anyone have any references to primary sources that I could
research such a persona?  As always I appreciate your wonderful responses.

Grant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David & Evelyn Mullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Free trappers vs company men
Date: 12 Aug 1998 21:27:35 +0000

Henry,

Sorry for taking so long to reply to your question. The following
information may be found in Volume 10 of the Hafen series. The article
is entitled _A Statistical View_ by Richard J. Fehrman, and deals
exclusively with trappers/ traders in the series. The following is a
quote from pages 10-11 (Vol. 10 - Hafen):

"Another subject is that of the fur companies which were in operation in
the trans-Mississippi area and the number of men belonging to each. This
cannot be definitive, for numbers of trappers switched service from one
company to another. The American Fur Company employed the largest number
of men (39), in fact, nearly two to one over the Hudson's Bay (22) and
the Missouri Fur (22) companies. Of the nineteen fur companies
represented, these three companies accounted for the employment of 30%,
or more than half of the trappers associated with fur companies; 29%
being with the other sixteen companies. However, 41% or 118 were free
agents, or as many as with the first six leading companies combined.
"The term "free agents" signified that although he might be carried on a
company roll, he could trap where he chose, either in a regular
expedition or alone but usually sold his furs to the company."

As you can see, of the known biographies, 41% were free trappers. In my
estimation this number is skewed upwards and should not be applied to
the fur trade as a whole. In a typical fur period rendezvous there would
have been a large number of "common" folk acting as engagees and
campkeepers (probably of French-Canadian decent). Sixty percent of the
mountain men were of French Canadian decent according to Harvey Carter
in _Stereotypes of the Mountain Man_, yet made up only 15 percent of the
biographies included in the Hafen series. One would have to look at the
ethnicity and nationality of these "Free Trappers" to make a valid
comparison for the entire fur trade.

Hope this of some help,
David

Henry B. Crawford wrote:
>
> Has anyone out there ever come across or done research on the proportion of
> free trappers vs company men during the Rendezvous period of the fur trade?
> A question was posed to me regarding which were the more numerous.  I
> couldn't say, except that for there to have been more free trappers, there
> would have to be thousands of them, given the size of those company
> brigades.  Anyone out there have a clue.
>
> TIA,
> HBC

--
David Mullen
202 Mesa Verde
Jemez Springs, NM 87025
505.829.3212
email:[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 12 Aug 1998 21:52:22 -0700





[e-mail] wrote:

> Hi all,  I am going through a buckskinners mid-life crisis.

<snip>

> I had it in my mind that I wanted to emulate the western fur trade around the
> 1830's, but I find that many of my tastes are drawn to the eastern woodsman.

<snip again>

Grant,

I too have started out to create the persona of a western fur trapper and like you
my interest has been drawn to the eastern woodsman.  If I keep going backward not
only will I end up broke, I'll end up a Roman Soldier!
My interest is greatly affected by the beauty of the Rocky Mountains, especially
the area around the Grand Tetons.  The idea of living in that time and place as
well as the free spiritedness of those great men who made their lives in that wild
untouched land captures my soul!
I think I'm going to strive for a more early persona that would more resemble one
of the first men to come to the Rockies.  By my reading, that persona would
probably closer resemble the eastern woodsman than what we have come to think of.
I too will be looking for some good documentation to validate that assumption.  I
was just looking at a "southern rifle", flintlock of course, and wondering if a
rifle like that would have been the kind that made one of the first trips west.
We've got our work cut out for us no doubt!

Medicine Bear
(Don't sweat the small things and don't pet the sweaty things!)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 13 Aug 1998 09:59:21 -0700

Grant and Medicine Bear:

Sounds like you two are living the same dreams as I have. I've gone through the same
mental transformation over the last 15+ years and when I ask myself why or am asked
why this is what I come up with, nothing romantic about it though.

A number of years ago I found myself carrying a Charleville Musket more often than my
.54 cal. flint half stock. I also found that to go trekking, I needed to find a better
way to carry my gear than on horse back cause I didn't have a horse but the gear I
carried was what one would have if on horse back. This all lead to a natural tendency
toward doing things the way the eastern longhunter would do them what with being on
foot most of the time. Since it has become fashionable to define what period of
history and what 'persona' you are recreating; the Charleville and the knapsack and
haversack, the eastern clothing all made me see that I was doing and dressing more
eastern than not. So.......  One thought lead to another and I picture myself as a man
of independent means who has served in the military and is off to see the interior of
this country. Depending on what time period the event is placed in, my persona
(without going into too much detail) will reasonably place me in that time frame
because all my gear is of such a vintage that it could reasonably be expected to have
existed at that time, whether we are talking F&I or Rocky Mt. Fur Trade.

Now as to historical justification one need only look to the Lewis and Clark Journals
and the writings of Washington Irving on the Wilson Price Hunt Party to Fort Astoria
in 1810 to find accounts of 'long hunters' coming and going into and from the Eastern
and Western halves of this continent from well before the L&C Expedition and well into
the Fur Trade era of the 1800's. What you see in what contemporary paintings and
sketches remain of the rendezvous is a strong retention of what we would
easily/readily recognize as 'eastern garments'. The same can be said for fire arms
too. Many researchers like Charles Hansen have found that the long gun was the
predominant fire arm of the fur trapper and western explorer with very notable but
uncommon exceptions; i.e. 1803 Harpers Ferry muskets going with L&C. It has been shown
that Hawkens Guns were not even that common.

Anyway this is what I've picked up over the years and I can only assume that for the
most part it is more how things were than what we thought just 20 or 30 years back
when I was first getting started. I claim no perfect knowledge of the history of this
country and am more than ready to learn the truth. I do know that if you wish to be
flexible in your persona you must remember that you will tie yourself to a given date
back in time by the newest piece of gear you have on you. With that piece of gear on,
you will not be able to place yourself in an earlier time. That usually is your long
gun and so that is why I choose to carry a Tulle' or a fire arm of the pre Rev. War
era. I am in the planning stage right now to build myself a Virginia Rifle in .58 cal.
with Oct. to Round  44" barrel.

I hope this was of use to you. I would be interested to hear what your thoughts are. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Frank wrote:

> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Hi all,  I am going through a buckskinners mid-life crisis.
>
> <snip>
>
> > I had it in my mind that I wanted to emulate the western fur trade around the
> > 1830's, but I find that many of my tastes are drawn to the eastern woodsman.
>
> <snip again>
>
> Grant,
>
> I too have started out to create the persona of a western fur trapper and like you
> my interest has been drawn to the eastern woodsman.  If I keep going backward not
> only will I end up broke, I'll end up a Roman Soldier!
> My interest is greatly affected by the beauty of the Rocky Mountains, especially
> the area around the Grand Tetons.  The idea of living in that time and place as
> well as the free spiritedness of those great men who made their lives in that wild
> untouched land captures my soul!
> I think I'm going to strive for a more early persona that would more resemble one
> of the first men to come to the Rockies.  By my reading, that persona would
> probably closer resemble the eastern woodsman than what we have come to think of.
> I too will be looking for some good documentation to validate that assumption.  I
> was just looking at a "southern rifle", flintlock of course, and wondering if a
> rifle like that would have been the kind that made one of the first trips west.
> We've got our work cut out for us no doubt!
>
> Medicine Bear
> (Don't sweat the small things and don't pet the sweaty things!)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: sewing machine
Date: 13 Aug 1998 19:22:20 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BDC6EF.B1126CA0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


But you forgot about they couldn't find a thread that would work until the
late 30's or 40's later Jon T
----------
: From: paul mueller <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: sewing machine
: Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:49 AM
: :
:     John,
:  sorry to say but a type of sewing machine was invented and used.in
: 1790 thomas saint patened an apparatus which sewed and had many of the
: features of the modern chain stitch machine but not with a eye in the
: needle. barthe'lemy thimmonier  patened the modern sewing machine in
: 1830 and it had an eye in the needle as it was called a sewing machine.
: the item that saint had was about the size if a small room so it was
: very uncommon for it to be used but it was there in the time frame.
:
------=_NextPart_000_01BDC6EF.B1126CA0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"><br>But you forgot about they couldn't =
find a thread that would work until the late 30's or 40's later Jon =
T<br>----------<br>: From: paul mueller <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: sewing machine<br>: =
    John,<br>:  sorry to say but a type of =
sewing machine was invented and used.in<br>: 1790 thomas saint patened =
an apparatus which sewed and had many of the<br>: features of the modern =
chain stitch machine but not with a eye in the<br>: needle. barthe'lemy =
thimmonier  patened the modern sewing machine in<br>: 1830 and it =
had an eye in the needle as it was called a sewing machine.<br>: the =
item that saint had was about the size if a small room so it was<br>: =
very uncommon for it to be used but it was there in the time frame.<br>: =
</p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BDC6EF.B1126CA0--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 13 Aug 1998 21:41:37 -0600

>Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:40:35 -0600 (MDT)
>X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt
>To: <[e-mail]>
>From: Dennis "Liver-Eatin'" McLelland <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Liver-Eating Johnston
>
>
> I've just completed a book, The Life and Times of John Liver-Eating
Johnston," and I wonder if you or any of your buddies have any last minute
items, tidbits, anecdotes, before I publish. Johnston was born in New
Jersey in 1824, and supposedly made it out west to California, Colorado, to
Montana in about 1845. The largely fictitious book "Crow Killer" had
Johnston killing Crow braves. What a crok! He lived with the Crow for years!
>
>Anyway, e-mail when you can.
>
>Dennis
>
>--
>This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address
>    "Dennis "Liver-Eatin'" McLelland <[e-mail]>"
>may be incorrect.
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 13 Aug 1998 16:52:46 +0000

Grant,  I too have had a hard time defining my time period.  As of late I
am a transitional Mtn. Man = early fur trade.  When the early (1820's)
adventurers left St Louis they didn't just change their clothes & gear.
There was an evolution of clothing, style, and gear.  I am a westerner,
but the last few years have been spent trekking with easterners.  I have
noticed that the eastern type clothing is more functional for the type of
activities that I do.  I have taken to wearing knee britches and above
the knee leggings.  My western friends call me a cross dresser!
According to miller's field sketches, knee britches were common.  Joe
Meek told about breaking winter camp and cutting off their trousers at
the knee.  This was to facilitate wading in streams in more comfort.  I
tend to trek in canoe, so the knee britches/leggings combo.  works great.
 In a nut shell I've developed my 'persona' on the gear that works best
for me in the field.  I think that if I lived 200 yrs. ago, I would do
the same thing.....use what worked for me.    Hardtack

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 13 Aug 1998 14:26:15 -0500

Washtahay-
    sorry about the delay on this.  I finished trashing out my right arm this
week, doc has me on some wierd meds that make me want to sleep all the
time.  So far, no entrants in the contest.  Hawk suggested last week
extending the deadline from a week to a month.  Guess he was right-so lets
punch the date out to 7 September.
LongWalker c. du B.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Colters Run
Date: 13 Aug 1998 17:04:31 EDT

It was recently suggested here that the the popular version of Colters Run
which we have all heard countless times may have in fact been an exaggeration
on Colters part and that the Blackfoot tribes tell the story differently.  I
have anxiously awaited further information on this topic and a source of the
Blackfoot version. At this point I still tend to put credence in Colters
version, but am always seeking the truth in things and feel that if someone
steps forward to question or discredit something, then it falls upon them to
offer evidence to the contrary for all our betterment.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 14 Aug 1998 00:39:28 -0400

7 september is a good date for the contest we may have a winner by
default id someone out there other than myself doesnt post something---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:26:15 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>    sorry about the delay on this.  I finished trashing out my
>right arm this
>week, doc has me on some wierd meds that make me want to sleep all the
>time.  So far, no entrants in the contest.  Hawk suggested last week
>extending the deadline from a week to a month.  Guess he was right-so
>lets
>punch the date out to 7 September.
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Old Cataldo Mission Trade Rendezvous (N. Idaho)
Date: 14 Aug 1998 02:37:45 -0700 (PDT)

For those of you in the Great Pacific Northwest... Tony, of Mountain Top
Trading, just reminded me of an upcoming event...

****************************
The Cataldo Trade Rendezvous

When: Aug 21, 22 & 23

Where: The Old Cataldo Mission, Idaho. From Couer D'Alene, go east on 90,
       signs will be posted.

Details: Call the Park at 208-682-3814. This is supposed to be a really
         good event that is getting better every year. Whether you need
         supplies, or just want to sit around and talk Blackpowder stuff,
         I have it on good authority (from several sources) it's a good
         one.

More Info? [phone]

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading Webring for those with Webpages
Date: 14 Aug 1998 02:58:10 -0700 (PDT)

Of interest to those with webpages and links, there are a couple of
webrings now in existance that could concievably replace the standard link
pages.

One of them is the "Mountain Man Webring" at;
http://www.healingearth.com/mtnmanweb.html

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colters Run
Date: 14 Aug 1998 08:24:20 -0600 (CST)

>It was recently suggested here that the the popular version of Colters Run
>which we have all heard countless times may have in fact been an exaggeration
>on Colters part and that the Blackfoot tribes tell the story differently.  I
>have anxiously awaited further information on this topic and a source of the
>Blackfoot version. At this point I still tend to put credence in Colters
>version, but am always seeking the truth in things and feel that if someone
>steps forward to question or discredit something, then it falls upon them to
>offer evidence to the contrary for all our betterment.
>
>Todd Glover

Todd,
I'm waiting to hear back from a Blackfeet friend (poet and historian) in
Kalispell who told me the story.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas H. Harbold" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 14 Aug 1998 10:04:38 -0400

Hmmmm...?

Sorry, folks, but I've just signed on and haven't a clue what this is
about! Anyone care to enlighten me? Please? Thanks!

Being newly interested in this time period (most of my
reenacting/re-creating has been medieval-era), I'm also fascinated by the
"Desperately seeking a persona" discussion. Thanks to all contributors!

Take care,

Tom



At 12:39 AM -0400 8/14/98, Michael Pierce wrote:
>7 september is a good date for the contest we may have a winner by
>default id someone out there other than myself doesnt post something---
>      "Hawk"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
>On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:26:15 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
>writes:
>>Washtahay-
>>    sorry about the delay on this.  I finished trashing out my
>>right arm this
>>week, doc has me on some wierd meds that make me want to sleep all the
>>time.  So far, no entrants in the contest.  Hawk suggested last week
>>extending the deadline from a week to a month.  Guess he was right-so
>>lets
>>punch the date out to 7 September.
>>LongWalker c. du B.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Lewis and Clark Journals
Date: 14 Aug 1998 08:27:12 -0600

Dean,

Here's an addditional request for information about Lewis and Clark first
source material:  where are Lewis's nature notes located and how can the
nature notes be obtained for study?

Dave
-----Original Message-----


>>Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:25:00 -0500
>>From: A Corbitt <[e-mail]>
>>X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT  (Win95; U)
>>To: [e-mail]
>>Subject: Lewis and Clark Journals
>>X-URL: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch4/msg00666.html
>>
>>Has the cd-rom version of these journals been released?
>>Any information would be appreciated.
>>Joel C Corbitt
>>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 14 Aug 1998 08:44:48 -0600

If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone," it
contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in Redlodge and
other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also includes an
account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.

The book also contains an account of another old timer in the Gardner, MT,
area that locals considered the last of the real mountain men.  He wintered
in a wall tent just outside of the town of Gardner, and was reported to have
gone barefoot when around camp -- even in the winter.  It was also reported
that he was comfortable in only his wool long handles when most people
shivered inside their coats.  I've got find another copy of the book to
refresh my memory of that individual's name.

The book is long out of print, hard to find, and commands a high price with
collectors.  The last copy I found was wearing a $275 price tag.
Fortunately, many libraries have a copy.


-----Original Message-----


>>Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:40:35 -0600 (MDT)
>>X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>From: Dennis "Liver-Eatin'" McLelland <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: Liver-Eating Johnston
>>
>>
>> I've just completed a book, The Life and Times of John Liver-Eating
>Johnston," and I wonder if you or any of your buddies have any last minute
>items, tidbits, anecdotes, before I publish. Johnston was born in New
>Jersey in 1824, and supposedly made it out west to California, Colorado, to
>Montana in about 1845. The largely fictitious book "Crow Killer" had
>Johnston killing Crow braves. What a crok! He lived with the Crow for
years!
>>
>>Anyway, e-mail when you can.
>>
>>Dennis
>>
>>--
>>This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address
>>    "Dennis "Liver-Eatin'" McLelland <[e-mail]>"
>>may be incorrect.
>>
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 14 Aug 1998 09:49:06 -0500

At 10:04 AM 8/14/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hmmmm...?
>
>Sorry, folks, but I've just signed on and haven't a clue what this is
>about! Anyone care to enlighten me? Please? Thanks!
>
ashtahay-
    We have our judges-John Kramer, Hawk, and myself (LongWalker c. du B).
The prize pool has grown to a rum horn, horn cup, a pre-1840 large cent,
and a hand made turkey call.  Here are the rules:
    We want to locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having
been in use on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date
of 1830.  Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the
Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the St
Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about the
bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been in
use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates, for
example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported by
other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp 74-75
of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply trains
to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in the
late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The folks on the
list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate it
for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting documentation.
    If you find the bag, submit the information to me directly, or to the
list.  If you get in under the deadline with preliminary information and it
takes a while for the judges' committee to reach a decision, you still win
if we can agree the bag meets the criteria.
    Deadline for submission is 7 September 1998.

Let the hunt begin!

LongWalker c. du B., tilter at windmills, and occasional champion of lost
causes





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 14 Aug 1998 11:34:05 -0400

tom will repost the rules to the contest  the ending date is now in
september because no-one submitted a entry---prizes are a hand made
turkey call, a hand made horn  cup and a rum horn or something like that
and a pre 1840 big penny---there is three of us judgeing it
kramer---myself--jim cogburn--- I have a couple of pre 1840 original bags
that are not in very good shape that I can date and verify but I
disqualified myself so that we can get new input---this is a fun thing
that jim came up with to promote interest in research and documentation
of something in the fur trade time.

Jim's e-mail address is [e-mail]
kramers e-mail address is [e-mail]

jim established the rules and asked john kramer and myself to help judge
I will repost jim's original msg---AND SEND YOU A COPY

NEW END DATE FOR THE CONTEST IS IN SEPTEMBER:

     YMHOSANT

        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:04:38 -0400 "Thomas H. Harbold"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hmmmm...?
>
>Sorry, folks, but I've just signed on and haven't a clue what this is
>about! Anyone care to enlighten me? Please? Thanks!
>
>Being newly interested in this time period (most of my
>reenacting/re-creating has been medieval-era), I'm also fascinated by
>the
>"Desperately seeking a persona" discussion. Thanks to all
>contributors!
>
>Take care,
>
>Tom
>
>
>
>At 12:39 AM -0400 8/14/98, Michael Pierce wrote:
>>7 september is a good date for the contest we may have a winner by
>>default id someone out there other than myself doesnt post
>something---
>>      "Hawk"
>>Michael Pierce
>>854 Glenfield Dr.
>>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>>1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>>
>>On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:26:15 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
>>writes:
>>>Washtahay-
>>>    sorry about the delay on this.  I finished trashing out my
>>>right arm this
>>>week, doc has me on some wierd meds that make me want to sleep all
>the
>>>time.  So far, no entrants in the contest.  Hawk suggested last week
>>>extending the deadline from a week to a month.  Guess he was
>right-so
>>>lets
>>>punch the date out to 7 September.
>>>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search &
Date: 14 Aug 1998 11:53:13 -0400

HERE IS A REPOST OF THE RULES:  END DATE NOW EXTENDED TO SEPTEMBER---DUE
TO NUMBER OF SUBMITTALS---
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:49:36 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>    OK folks.  We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature
>of one bag
>the last few days.  So lets get down to brass tacks on this.  I want
>to
>locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been
>in use
>on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of
>1830.
>Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,
>Texas, or the
>Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the
>St
>Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about
>the
>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
>
>    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as
>having been in
>use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates,
>for
>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless
>supported by
>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp
>74-75
>of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
>trains
>to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in
>the
>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The
>folks on the
>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate
>it
>for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
>documentation.
>
>    Prize?  Immortal fame isn't enough?  How about a rum horn and
>horn cup?
>Copied after the canteen shown on p 142  and the bottom cup on p 144
>of
>"The Powder Horn and its Architecture".
>    Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of the
>woodwork.
>Judge's decisions are final.  Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing
>to
>help me judge this?
>
>Let the hunt begin!
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 14 Aug 1998 12:14:22 EDT

In a message dated 8/13/98 1:03:45 AM US Eastern Standard Time, Grant writes:

<<  I had it in my mind that I wanted to emulate the western fur trade around
the 1830's, but I find that many of my tastes are drawn to the eastern
woodsman >>

   Who wrote this again Grant, you or me?  I imagine this story could apply to
many of us.  I have finally decided to turn my focus toward a
Longhunter/Mountainman of the turn of the century.  After all what were the
western mountainmen of this period but eastern longhunters who pointed
themselves west.  I have a fasination for both periods and figure by putting
my gear together just right I will fit into either period well with just a
minor change of a few of the acutriments and cloths.  Living in the St. Louis
area we are connected well to both periods of time and have many events all
year long that are connceted to one or the other period. I just figured rather
than concentrate on just one period I would look at that time that sort of
splits one from the other.
   Just something to think about.

                                                    Longshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 14 Aug 1998 11:38:38 -0600 (CST)

There's no reason, save financial, that you can't do both.  Heck, I have a
dozen or more personas and impressions that range throughout the 19th
century frontier era.  Don't agonize over it.  Be as versitile as you can
afford, and don't concentrate on only one thing.  I guarantee you'll never
get bored.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 14 Aug 1998 12:45:59 EDT


In a message dated 8/14/98 7:53:24 AM, you wrote:

<<If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone," it
contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in Redlodge and
other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also includes an
account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.>>


So, is it Johnston or Johnson?
     Dick



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 14 Aug 1998 11:55:32 -0500

At 11:38 AM 8/14/98 -0600, you wrote:
>There's no reason, save financial, that you can't do both.=A0 Heck, I have=
 a
>dozen or more personas and impressions that range throughout the 19th
>century frontier era.=A0 Don't agonize over it.=A0 Be as versitile as you=
 can
>afford, and don't concentrate on only one thing.=A0 I guarantee you'll=
 never
>get bored.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC
>

Henry,

Think of it this way.

You get to enjoy multiple personalities and you don't trash several hundred,
wasted bucks, an hour on a shrink.  Cool.  Where's the financial problem?=20
Seems cheaper to me.  Certainly more fun.

John...
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 15 Aug 1998 01:22:46 -0400

You are going to be a great assets to this board or group.  Get 5 or more of us
together and you really have a camp of a hundred.  Never heard it put so nicely
on personas.
Also...for those few people who have tried to get in touch with me or sent
messages...the computer crashed again.  I took it out an used it for target
practice with my original Lyman(which still shoots 10x even with me at the
sights) and a Winchester 30 odd something.  Enjoyed blowing it up with some
extra bags of gun powder I left lying around.  Plastic, memory chips, and a hard
drive everywhere.  Too bad we cannot have a primitive shooting competition with
computers as the target.

Linda Holley

John Kramer wrote:

> At 11:38 AM 8/14/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >There's no reason, save financial, that you can't do both.  Heck, I have a
> >dozen or more personas and impressions that range throughout the 19th
> >century frontier era.  Don't agonize over it.  Be as versitile as you can
> >afford, and don't concentrate on only one thing.  I guarantee you'll never
> >get bored.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >HBC
> >
>
> Henry,
>
> Think of it this way.
>
> You get to enjoy multiple personalities and you don't trash several hundred,
> wasted bucks, an hour on a shrink.  Cool.  Where's the financial problem?
> Seems cheaper to me.  Certainly more fun.
>
> John...
> John T. Kramer, maker of:
>
> Kramer's Best Antique Improver
> >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>         >>>As good as old!<<<
>
> <http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
> mail to: <[e-mail]>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:25:28 EDT

I appreciate all the comments and insight into my question regarding persona.
I like the idea of having many persona's, except that it gets darned expensive
(unless you are talented enough to make EVERYTHING yourself).  I figured that
if I settled on one, then I could concentrate my few funds on getting quality
accoutrements.

I too have the problem expressed by others of being horseless and so I am
attracted to that which better suits the man on foot.  I am at least 5 years
away from being able to aquire one of the critters as I have a year of
bachelors school, and at least two years of masters school ahead not to
mention a wife to get through physician assistant school.

 I think that I am going to pick up a copy of the journals of Lewis and Clark
this weekend and start my research there.  If anyone has anymore suggestions
on primary sources, I would love to hear about them.  Thanks again for all the
help.

Grant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Mahoney <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Lewis and Clark Journals - Reply
Date: 14 Aug 1998 10:22:01 -0700

Dear Mr's. Rudy, Tippets, & Corbitt,

Here is an excellent resource regarding your interest in the natural landscapes
and wildlife encountered by the Corps of Discovery:

"The Natural History of the Lewis and Clark Expedition"  Edited by Raymond
Darwin Burroughs.  Published in 1995, by the Michigan State University
Press.

YMObt Svt,

Jim Mahoney




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 14 Aug 1998 12:55:20 -0600 (CST)

>I appreciate all the comments and insight into my question regarding persona.
>I like the idea of having many persona's, except that it gets darned expensive
>(unless you are talented enough to make EVERYTHING yourself).  I figured that
>if I settled on one, then I could concentrate my few funds on getting quality
>accoutrements.

That's how many of us started.  Almost 20 years ago, for financial reasons,
I started with one era, then branched out.  If possible, try top copmbine
equipment so that one persona could become two.  I can use my fur trade
stuff to do Texas Army, for example.  My Civil War equipment fits well for
early Indian Wars (1867-1873)  Many civilian impressions are right at home
at military events and reenactments.  It doesn't hurt to mix and match, as
long as sound historical judgement is used in crossing periods.  As someone
else said, eastern woodland longhunter impressions fit Lewis and Clark and
early fur trade scenarios very nicely.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas H. Harbold" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest
Date: 14 Aug 1998 14:31:30 -0400

Thanks, Hawk, LongWalker, et al! Can't help with this, I'm afraid, but will
be following the "hunt" with interest.

Tom





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 14 Aug 1998 15:33:52 -0500

Grant,

The personas which are missing are those most common in the past we emulate.=
 =20

Read the Fur Trade Library on Dean's web site, it is better than you'll
find in
most public libraries on the subject.  Read the entire archive he has posted
there of the past discussions on this list.  You'll find many folks did not
have horses, and some not all the time.  A lot of people were walking=
 around.=20
You'll find everything you need to know to get started and much more.

We have plenty of the upper end of variety what is not represented is the
common: camp keepers and company men.  The ones who did the most work and
received the least. =20

Would you work your heart out for one rip roaring drunken frolic a year, and
barely enough to survive and get by?  That was the life most common.

Your concern with finance causes me to suggest you emulate that which we=
 need
to see much more of at rendezvous. =20

It is really cheap to do.  You can hold your head higher than a bedazzling
Free
Trapper because you are helping make the camp look more like the camps of=
 old
than just another "Fancy Dan."

You don't need a gun or much of anything except a few crude clothes, a fire
steel, cup, knife, one blanket and not much else.  If you've talent as a=
 camp
dog you won't even need cook gear, one pot will do.  You may be made to work
for your supper.  Like gather in wood.  If you want to spend money -- buy=
 good
books.

As you can afford it and develop a more discerning taste by association and
learning you can better select and acquire those things which will serve you
best.  DO NOT BUY ANY OF THE FIRST 100 guns you look at.  Ask a lot of
questions.  Listen to the answers.

There was only one Ashley, Astor, Bridger, Bonneville, Stewart, and the=
 rest,
of the few of fame and fewer of fortune.  There were many with VERY little.
 Be
one of the many, now few, and save a fortune.

Then when you and your wife are both working you can do John Jacob Astor or
William Drummond Stewart.  You can have brain tan with moose hair
embroidery if
you like.  You might then want to consider a quilled, painted or beaded=
 brain
tan buffalo hide lodge.  I know folks willing to make one, for a price. =20

Whether it's knowledge, recreation, or nifty stuff there are few limits in
this
pursuit.  To be absolutely correct at rendezvous need not be expensive.

Be what you are.  Become what you become.  I guarantee 20 years from now
you'll
be entirely different.

John...


At 01:25 PM 8/14/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I appreciate all the comments and insight into my question regarding=
 persona.
>I like the idea of having many persona's, except that it gets darned
expensive
>(unless you are talented enough to make EVERYTHING yourself).=A0 I figured=
 that
>if I settled on one, then I could concentrate my few funds on getting=
 quality
>accoutrements.=20
>
>I too have the problem expressed by others of being horseless and so I am
>attracted to that which better suits the man on foot.=A0 I am at least 5=
 years
>away from being able to aquire one of the critters as I have a year of
>bachelors school, and at least two years of masters school ahead not to
>mention a wife to get through physician assistant school.=20
>
> I think that I am going to pick up a copy of the journals of Lewis and=
 Clark
>this weekend and start my research there.=A0 If anyone has anymore=
 suggestions
>on primary sources, I would love to hear about them.=A0 Thanks again for al=
l
the
>help.
>
>Grant
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Lewis and Clark Journals
Date: 14 Aug 1998 17:06:46 +0000

David Tippetts,  I have a book called; 'Lewis & Clark : Pioneering
Naturalists'.  It's by Paul Russell Cutright.  University of Nebraska
Press.  ISBN 0-8032-6334-1  Mine is priced at $16.95.  It is readily
available.  I bought mine at the Arch bookstore in St. Louis, then gave
it away.  I bought another one at the bookstore at the Western Heritage
Museum in Los Angeles.  Hope this helps.    Hardtack

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: darlene <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 14 Aug 1998 21:26:36 -0400


steve my wife is a seamstress & she does all by hand & her prices are not
much higher than someone that does by machine.she has a business called
(STITCHES IN TYME).if you wish to contact her by e-mail her e-mail adress
is ([e-mail]) & she will gladly get back to you.she just recently
made 2 fine longhunter shirts out of russian linen for a gentleman out
west.she is going to have some items in the blacksmith shop in fairmont
wva.this gentleman is the blacksmith at prickett's fort in fairmont
wva.hope to hear from you shootshimselfAt 02:17 PM 8/11/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Ho the list,
>I'm sure this has been covered before, but I need to know how long "Calico"
>shirts have been around.... and who makes the best drop sleeve calico shirts.
>I need a green or brown one for hunting this fall..... looks nicer than camo.
>
>Steve
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Lewis and Clark Journals - Reply
Date: 15 Aug 1998 10:25:12 EDT

Another you might wish to concider is the Frank Bergon edition. It contains a
list of the articles purchased for the expedition which is a very good source
of information on what could have been carried and used by any following
trapper or trader.
YMHS
Vince Stevens
A.K.A. George Drouillard
L&C Honor Guard, Great Falls, MT



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Doug Mizell <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 1998 Summer/Fall Schedule?
Date: 15 Aug 1998 08:23:22 -0700 (PDT)

Skinner, Looking for a RENDEVOUS! (IN or around Tennessee Tri-State
area) for late summer or fall of 98!
Happy Trails-Laughin' Bear




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 15 Aug 1998 09:58:09 -0600

How much does your wife charge for a hand sewn linen shirt, I am looking
for another one and possibly a handsewn cotton shirt that has an
appropieate color pattern.
Thanks
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: cotton  seed oil
Date: 15 Aug 1998 11:04:27 -0500

Does anyone out there have a source for cotton seed oil ? Does this stuff
work well for water prooffing ?
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 15 Aug 1998 12:44:24 -0500

On 1998-12-08 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >CC: [e-mail][e-mail]
   >>Ho the list,
   >>I'm sure this has been covered before, but I need to know how long
   >>"Calico" shirts have been around.... and who makes the best drop
   >>sleeve calico shirts. I need a green or brown one for hunting this
   >>fall..... looks nicer than camo.
   >>Steve
   >This from "An Account of Upper Louisiana" Nicolas de Finiels,ed.and
   >translated by Carl Ekberg.
   >In January of 1809 H.Austin & Co. advertised in the "Missouri
   >Gazette":"Just received, and offered for sale,an assortment of DRY
   >GOODS,....1000 yards Calicos from 50 to 75 cents"
   >To save my typing FINGER I cut an awful lot of the ad and just
   >quoted the pertinent info. The ad also lists "Cotton Checks" so
   >ckecked shirts were a possibility also.
I tried to send this but I don't think it went through.

SOUFLE,SOUFLE  La VIELLE

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (A D)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cotton  seed oil
Date: 15 Aug 1998 14:35:43 -0500 (CDT)

My wife will check on the cotton seed source. She is a soap maker and
has access to many kinds of oils. If you need more info contact me off
line.
D'Wolfen






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 15 Aug 1998 14:34:30 -0700

Linda!!

I have not laughed so much in weeks!

Linda Holley wrote:<snip>

> ...the computer crashed again.  I took it out an used it for target
> practice with my original Lyman(which still shoots 10x even with me at the
> sights) and a Winchester 30 odd something.  Enjoyed blowing it up with some
> extra bags of gun powder I left lying around.  Plastic, memory chips, and a hard
> drive everywhere.  Too bad we cannot have a primitive shooting competition with
> computers as the target.
>

I have a couple of targets to offer!  Would anybody like a bullseye image of Mr.
Gates?  I think there is a fine commercial opportunity here!

> Linda Holley
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona
Date: 15 Aug 1998 21:54:56 -0400

Gary Bell wrote:
>
> Linda!!
>
> I have not laughed so much in weeks!
>
> Linda Holley wrote:<snip>
>
> > ...the computer crashed again.  I took it out an used it for target
> > practice with my original Lyman(which still shoots 10x even with me at the
> > sights) and a Winchester 30 odd something.  Enjoyed blowing it up with some
> > extra bags of gun powder I left lying around.  Plastic, memory chips, and a hard
> > drive everywhere.  Too bad we cannot have a primitive shooting competition with
> > computers as the target.
> >
>
> I have a couple of targets to offer!  Would anybody like a bullseye image of Mr.
> Gates?  I think there is a fine commercial opportunity here!

That's probably about right!  Since he and Clinton are good
buddies....oh well, on to on topic discussions.

Fred

--
- Windows 98 supports real multitasking - it can boot and crash
simultaneously -



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: confusion
Date: 15 Aug 1998 08:07:22 -0700

did you finaly get that hungry computer fed up  iron tongue

Blue Rider wrote:

> Folks,
>
>         As a computer crash has eaten all my mailing list info,could some kind
> soul please tell me how to unsub/resub or just change my email address
> with the list?  I sure would appreciate it, as I have to change my
> address in a couple of days.
>
>         TIA
>         Blue






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: darlene <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 16 Aug 1998 00:03:35 -0400

Hi, thank you for you interest in a shirt.

The price of the shirts are
    Cotton            $40.00
    fustion undied     55.00
    fustion died         65.00
    wool              60.00
    linen             75.00
As for the appropriate collars for the cotton shirt it would depend on what
you wish to portray. I would need more information on this.
Thank you
Darlene
At 09:58 AM 8/15/98 -0600, you wrote:
>How much does your wife charge for a hand sewn linen shirt, I am looking
>for another one and possibly a handsewn cotton shirt that has an
>appropieate color pattern.
>Thanks
>Joe
>
>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>Write for custom tanning prices
>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
>hair on robes
>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
>check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Blue Rider <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: confusion
Date: 15 Aug 1998 22:06:26 -1000

Jerry H. Wheeler wrote:
>
> did you finaly get that hungry computer fed up  iron tongue
>

    Shore did, IT, and thanks for asking.  She's running good now.  I just
hope it lasts.  Not holding my breath, but what the heck.

    Aloha,
    Blue
>


> >



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WIDD-Tim Austin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Calico -Reply
Date: 16 Aug 1998 11:45:58 -0500

I highly recommend STITCHES IN TYME.  She did two shirts for me, and they are great.  Should be considered, the workmanship is great, and the length of time she gets the completed product to you is fantastic.


Tim Austin




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: confusion
Date: 16 Aug 1998 07:42:20 -0700

blue did that fellowon the list come to visit you in the blue hw. country seams to
me i remember he was asking how to get hold of you said that he was going to hw.
and wanted to visit .------im soooo nosey.  iron tongue

Blue Rider wrote:

> Jerry H. Wheeler wrote:
> >
> > did you finaly get that hungry computer fed up  iron tongue
> >
>
>         Shore did, IT, and thanks for asking.  She's running good now.  I just
> hope it lasts.  Not holding my breath, but what the heck.
>
>         Aloha,
>         Blue
> >
>
> > >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Blue Rider <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: confusion
Date: 16 Aug 1998 20:35:45 -1000

Jerry H. Wheeler wrote:
>
> blue did that fellowon the list come to visit you in the blue hw.
> country seams to
> me i remember he was asking how to get hold of you said that he was
> going to hw.
> and wanted to visit .------im soooo nosey.  iron tongue

> >
    Boy, that was a while back.  No, nobody ever showed up.  Who the heck
was it, anyway?
    Don't worry about bein' nosy.  If I don't like it, you will know.  And
right off too.
    I don't take offense very easy.  Too much trouble for a lazy one like
me.

    Good to talk to you,
    Blue



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "K. Carpenter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 17 Aug 1998 07:52:29 -0500

Everything I have read says Johnston.  I am, shortly,  leaving for Wyoming and
the 1834 Ham's Fork event.  After this, I am going to the Little Snake country,
around Baggs, WY.  Does anyone know exactly where the Liver Eater's cabin was,
where supposedly his family was killed and his Crow liver eating commenced?  I
have read it was in this area, but haven't been able to determine exactly
where.  Maybe nobody knows.  Also, while in this area, I am going to visit the
battle site where Henry Fraeb and others had a trading post and the place where
Fraeb was killed in said battle.  I'll tell you what I find when I get back.

Carp

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 8/14/98 7:53:24 AM, you wrote:
>
> <<If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone," it
> contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in Redlodge and
> other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also includes an
> account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.>>
>
> So, is it Johnston or Johnson?
>      Dick






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cotton  seed oil
Date: 17 Aug 1998 10:50:11 -0600 (CST)

>Does anyone out there have a source for cotton seed oil ? Does this stuff
>work well for water prooffing ?
>Pendleton

I don't know where to get pure cotton seed oil, but Lubbock is the center
of the cotton seed oil industry.  There are three places that produce the
stuff.  It is a major component of most cooking oils, and at times the east
side of town smells like a "greasy spoon" restaurant.  Since it is an oil,
chances are that it will waterproof, but the question is, would you use it.
It might be like brushing mazola on your tent.  If you can stand the
smell, fine, but it would also attract everything that crawls and flies,
making an uncomfortable living situation.  Your call.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 17 Aug 1998 08:32:57 -0700

if you go to baggs wyo go a little farther to slater thereis a musium there that is
about my great great great grand father also other pioneers of that area his name
is james baker he is barred their near there. i still have his sharps buffalo gun
an some other charished  memorabilia.      jerry wheeler---iron tongue

K. Carpenter wrote:

> Everything I have read says Johnston.  I am, shortly,  leaving for Wyoming and
> the 1834 Ham's Fork event.  After this, I am going to the Little Snake country,
> around Baggs, WY.  Does anyone know exactly where the Liver Eater's cabin was,
> where supposedly his family was killed and his Crow liver eating commenced?  I
> have read it was in this area, but haven't been able to determine exactly
> where.  Maybe nobody knows.  Also, while in this area, I am going to visit the
> battle site where Henry Fraeb and others had a trading post and the place where
> Fraeb was killed in said battle.  I'll tell you what I find when I get back.
>
> Carp
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 8/14/98 7:53:24 AM, you wrote:
> >
> > <<If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone," it
> > contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in Redlodge and
> > other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also includes an
> > account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.>>
> >
> > So, is it Johnston or Johnson?
> >      Dick






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "K. Carpenter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 18 Aug 1998 07:15:32 -0500



Jerry H. Wheeler wrote:

> if you go to baggs wyo go a little farther to slater thereis a musium there that is
> about my great great great grand father also other pioneers of that area his name
> is james baker he is barred their near there. i still have his sharps buffalo gun
> an some other charished  memorabilia.      jerry wheeler---iron tongue
>
>



> I have been to this museum in Savery, Wyoming.  They have one of Baker's cabins on
> the museum grounds and one of his dugout canoes in the musuem.

I forgot to mention in my original reply that, several years ago, I actually went to
the VA cemetary in LA and went to the spot described in a book, I believe Crow Killer,
to find Johnston's grave.  He had already been moved.

Carp






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 18 Aug 1998 13:46:23 EDT


Thanks boys, for all the information on calico. Kramer, if you saw how handy I
am with a needle and thread, you'd send money......smile.  Think I'll buy one.

I just finished reading a book on the history of Fort Nisqually. Not long
after the fort was built, the HBC had cows and sheep shipped up from Fort
Vancouver. Seems the local Indians had never seen such critters and all got
quite ill from drinking the milk! The author, (a Nisqually Indian) goes on to
say that ALL Indians lack the enzyme to digest milk! I know of some people who
are "lactose in tolerate" but not an entire race. Can this be true?

Steve




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 18 Aug 1998 13:16:43 -0600 (CST)


>I just finished reading a book on the history of Fort Nisqually. Not long
>after the fort was built, the HBC had cows and sheep shipped up from Fort
>Vancouver. Seems the local Indians had never seen such critters and all got
>quite ill from drinking the milk! The author, (a Nisqually Indian) goes on to
>say that ALL Indians lack the enzyme to digest milk! I know of some people who
>are "lactose in tolerate" but not an entire race.  Can this be true?

Not likely.  Try telling that to all of our Indian friends who love ice cream.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Looking for list
Date: 18 Aug 1998 11:43:53 -0700

Hey guys and gals.. Is the RevWar listserve defunct..? I try to sub to it,
and I get a message back saying it doesnt exist.. Has it moved...? I'd
'preicate being informed of its status by any of you good folk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 18 Aug 1998 13:45:37 -0700

Re "racial" lactose intolerance -- Actually this is possible (maybe as
much from accustomed diet as racial stock) -- my father told us a story
of how his unit treated a bunch of Korean orphans during the Korean war
to an ice cream party, only to watch in dismay as they all got sick.
Indian ancestry traces back to Asian groups, I believe ???
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 12:17 PM



>I just finished reading a book on the history of Fort Nisqually. Not
long
>after the fort was built, the HBC had cows and sheep shipped up from
Fort
>Vancouver. Seems the local Indians had never seen such critters and all
got
>quite ill from drinking the milk! The author, (a Nisqually Indian) goes
on to
>say that ALL Indians lack the enzyme to digest milk! I know of some
people who
>are "lactose in tolerate" but not an entire race.  Can this be true?

Not likely.  Try telling that to all of our Indian friends who love ice
cream.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 18 Aug 1998 14:43:55 -0700

Pat'
Racial ancestry does not trace back to Asian Stock, just ask most Indians
out west here.

YMOS
Caapt. Lahti'

Pat Quilter wrote:

>  .
> Indian ancestry traces back to Asian groups, I believe ???
> Pat Quilter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 12:17 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Calico
>
> >I just finished reading a book on the history of Fort Nisqually. Not
> long
> >after the fort was built, the HBC had cows and sheep shipped up from
> Fort
> >Vancouver. Seems the local Indians had never seen such critters and all
> got
> >quite ill from drinking the milk! The author, (a Nisqually Indian) goes
> on to
> >say that ALL Indians lack the enzyme to digest milk! I know of some
> people who
> >are "lactose in tolerate" but not an entire race.  Can this be true?
>
> Not likely.  Try telling that to all of our Indian friends who love ice
> cream.
>
> HBC
>
> *****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Milk (aka: Calico)
Date: 18 Aug 1998 17:02:25 -0600 (CST)

>Re "racial" lactose intolerance -- Actually this is possible (maybe as
>much from accustomed diet as racial stock) -- my father told us a story
>of how his unit treated a bunch of Korean orphans during the Korean war
>to an ice cream party, only to watch in dismay as they all got sick.
>Indian ancestry traces back to Asian groups, I believe ???

I think this has more to do with malnutrition, especially if the orphans
had been starving.  It takes the system some time to reaclimate to acidic
foods after having been deprived.  The ice cream may have been a bit
premature.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Calico
Date: 18 Aug 1998 21:18:32 EDT

No I don't think so....but I do know that some Hispanics and African
Americans are lactose intolerant but not the entire group  of people.

Ted

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 18 Aug 1998 22:18:06 -0600

Sorry, but I have no source of information that documents the correct
spelling of the last name.

-----Original Message-----


>
>In a message dated 8/14/98 7:53:24 AM, you wrote:
>
><<If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone," it
>contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in Redlodge and
>other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also includes an
>account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.>>
>
>
>So, is it Johnston or Johnson?
>     Dick
>
>





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 19 Aug 1998 00:50:23 EDT

The book mentioned in your posting is entitled "Footprints along
theYellowstone".  I have checked the book out from  my local library a couple
of times.  It has some fantastic stories about the early days of Montana and
about Liver-eatin' Johnston.  If you can find it, enjoy.

YMHS
Wade



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 18 Aug 1998 23:47:49 -0500

Johnston is the way it is written on the marker at Trailtown, in WY where
he was reburied.
YF

----------
> From: David Tippets <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 11:18 PM
>
> Sorry, but I have no source of information that documents the correct
> spelling of the last name.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 10:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
>
>
> >
> >In a message dated 8/14/98 7:53:24 AM, you wrote:
> >
> ><<If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone," it
> >contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in Redlodge
and
> >other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also includes
an
> >account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.>>
> >
> >
> >So, is it Johnston or Johnson?
> >     Dick
> >
> >
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 18 Aug 1998 11:49:03 -0700

so sorry( savory )is the name  my mother was born there

K. Carpenter wrote:

> Jerry H. Wheeler wrote:
>
> > if you go to baggs wyo go a little farther to slater thereis a musium there that is
> > about my great great great grand father also other pioneers of that area his name
> > is james baker he is barred their near there. i still have his sharps buffalo gun
> > an some other charished  memorabilia.      jerry wheeler---iron tongue
> >
> >
>
> > I have been to this museum in Savery, Wyoming.  They have one of Baker's cabins on
> > the museum grounds and one of his dugout canoes in the musuem.
>
> I forgot to mention in my original reply that, several years ago, I actually went to
> the VA cemetary in LA and went to the spot described in a book, I believe Crow Killer,
> to find Johnston's grave.  He had already been moved.
>
> Carp






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 18 Aug 1998 11:51:09 -0700

im not sure but i think he is buried in red lodge mont.  iron tongue

David Tippets wrote:

> Sorry, but I have no source of information that documents the correct
> spelling of the last name.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 10:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
>
> >
> >In a message dated 8/14/98 7:53:24 AM, you wrote:
> >
> ><<If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone," it
> >contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in Redlodge and
> >other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also includes an
> >account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.>>
> >
> >
> >So, is it Johnston or Johnson?
> >     Dick
> >
> >






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
Date: 19 Aug 1998 01:58:04 -0500

Naw Iron Tongue, he was re-buried at Trailtown and the AMM guys built a
really neat memorial for him. They had a big shindig and even old Robert
Redford was there. I have one of the booklets they gave out and I have some
pictures of it from when Wolf and Pam and I went there one year after
rendezvous. I think that was 1975. Yeah, cause we camped at Henry's Fork
that year too. Getting old and can't keep all that stuff straight as well
as I used to. I'll see if I can find you a photo if you want one.
YF

----------
> From: Jerry H. Wheeler <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 1:51 PM
>
> im not sure but i think he is buried in red lodge mont.  iron tongue
>
> David Tippets wrote:
>
> > Sorry, but I have no source of information that documents the correct
> > spelling of the last name.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 10:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
> >
> > >
> > >In a message dated 8/14/98 7:53:24 AM, you wrote:
> > >
> > ><<If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone,"
it
> > >contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in
Redlodge and
> > >other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also
includes an
> > >account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.>>
> > >
> > >
> > >So, is it Johnston or Johnson?
> > >     Dick
> > >
> > >
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looking for list
Date: 19 Aug 1998 03:24:53 -0500

On 1998-08-18 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1
   >Hey guys and gals.. Is the RevWar listserve defunct..? I try to sub
   >to it, and I get a message back saying it doesnt exist.. Has it
   >moved...? I'd 'preicate being informed of its status by any of you
   >good folk
HTTP://www.meridian.com/revlist/


That should help ya!
SOUFLE,SOUFLE  La VIELLE

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looking for list
Date: 19 Aug 1998 03:24:53 -0500

On 1998-08-18 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1
   >Hey guys and gals.. Is the RevWar listserve defunct..? I try to sub
   >to it, and I get a message back saying it doesnt exist.. Has it
   >moved...? I'd 'preicate being informed of its status by any of you
   >good folk
HTTP://www.meridian.com/revlist/


That should help ya!
SOUFLE,SOUFLE  La VIELLE

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: (fwd)Negro trappers
Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:09:16 -0600 (CST)

>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:39:26 -0700
>From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Negro trappers
>To: [e-mail]
>Reply-to: [e-mail]
>MIME-version: 1.0
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT  (Win95; U)
>Posted-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:04:16 -0700
>
>Henry,  As you will see below I've sent this to the mountain man list
>Sunday and it's now Tuesday and it hasn't shown up yet.  I don't know
>what the problem is, but I thought I'd send it straight to you, and see
>if you get it that way.  Let me know if you do.  Thanks, Dale Nelson
>
>Subject:
>        Negro trappers
>  Date:
>        Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:23:51 -0700
>  From:
>        Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
>    To:
>        [e-mail]
>
>        Henry Crawford and to whom else it might concern.  Henry, some
>time ago
>you asked if anyone had any info on black mountain men, and there was a
>lot of discussion of Beckworth, but I don't recall any others.  I hope
>I'm not repeating what others have said, but I ran across this
>information in a totally unexpected place.  I've been researching the
>Applegate Trail, and this information is in a book titled "TWO TRAILS
>NORTH" Trappers' Trails and Travellers' Tales From the Umpqua Through
>the Willamette, Long Tom and Siuslaw River Valleys  -- Volume 1 - Lane
>Applegate Trail Sesquicentennial Series by Douglas P. Card.   This is
>like a county museum book, (Lane stands for Lane county) and it's 6
>years out of period, but the people aren't.  The trail was scouted out
>in 1846, and was the southern route to Oregon.  The guide that took Levi
>Scott and Jesse Applegate through to map out the trail for the first
>time was Moses "Black" Harris (ca. 1800 - 1849)
>        In 1845 he was with Elijah White trying to find a better route
>through the Cascade mountains, and in 1845 he helped rescue the lost
>wagon train that Stephen Meeks (Joe's brother) got all tangled up out in
>the Oregon desert.  Then in 1846 he helped lead the party which
>discovered the route through the Calapooya Mountains and into the Umpqua
>drainage.  The worst part of the trail was the "dread canyon of the
>Umpqua", and he lead the second party that found that pass, and made it
>all the way through Nevada.  He helped the first emigrant train come in,
>and came back with a rescue party to rescue the stragglers, who were
>loosing all their possessions and dying in what is now Canyon Creek pass
>on I-5.  Now you kind of breeze through that nine miles in 8 minutes.
>It took the first train 3 weeks.  Some people don't think he was black,
>and you might contact the Douglas County Museum in Roseburg, OR to see
>what they have to say on that.  Miller painted him and described his
>skin as being very dark.  And of course there is this that is either his
>epitaph or at least written about him by Clyman.  "Here lies the bones
>of old Black Harris     Who often traveled beyond the far west      And
>for the freedom of equal rights      He crossed the snowy mountain
>heights      Was a free and essay kind of soul     Especially with a
>belly full."
>        A black man named Black Douglas worked for the HBC, but he
>doesn't say in what position he was employed.
>        Probably the first black man to reach Southern Oregon was a man
>named Peter Ranne or Raney.  He was with Jedediah Smith's brigade and
>was killed at the junction of Smith River with the Umpqua along with
>most (15) of Smith's other men.  He was Smith's servant when they were
>detained in Mexican California.
>        George Winslow  (Winslow Anderson)   In 1834 he was with Ewing
>Young when he first came to Oregon and Winslow is credited with being
>the first black man in Lane County, which is the most southern part of
>the Willamette valley.  He is one of the men who signed a Temperance
>Pledge directed at Young, but despite that he stayed close to him and
>frequently appears in his ledgers under one of his two names.
>
>        Hope this was some help to you.           DN
>
>

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Milk (aka Calico)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:29:14 -0600 (CST)

>No I don't think so....but I do know that some Hispanics and African
>Americans are lactose intolerant but not the entire group  of people.
>
>Ted

That's my point.  Just because some members of a certain race have similar
characteristics, you can't make a general rule for the rest.  I am not
lactose intolerant, nor are any members of my family on both sides.  I do
know several Caucasians who are, but there is no way one can say that all
are.

How did we ever get on this anyway??  I missed a chapter somewhere.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Forrest Smouse <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Milk (aka: Calico)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:19:51 +0000

I am lactose intolerant and have been for near 20 years. earlier in my life I
enjoy all milk products.  The intolerance started slowly.  My mother has
always been lactose intolerant.  Most peoples bodies have enzymes that break
down the complex sugars in milk.  If you don't have these enzymes those
sugars are broken down in the large intestines by bacteria.  The by-produce
of this is for most people extreme abdominal pain and gas.  Back to the
original statement,  if you have never eating a product like milk as most
native  Americans hadn't then they wouldn't have those enzymes.   In survival
situations in the wilds, they tell you not to eat the wild plants, if you
haven't been eating them on a regular basis, because they will make you sick.

Forrest Smouse

Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> >Re "racial" lactose intolerance -- Actually this is possible (maybe as
> >much from accustomed diet as racial stock) -- my father told us a story
> >of how his unit treated a bunch of Korean orphans during the Korean war
> >to an ice cream party, only to watch in dismay as they all got sick.
> >Indian ancestry traces back to Asian groups, I believe ???
>
> I think this has more to do with malnutrition, especially if the orphans
> had been starving.  It takes the system some time to reaclimate to acidic
> foods after having been deprived.  The ice cream may have been a bit
> premature.
>
> HBC
>
> *****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Milk (aka Calico)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:07:26 -0700



Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> >No I don't think so....but I do know that some Hispanics and African
> >Americans are lactose intolerant but not the entire group  of people.
> >
> >Ted
>
> That's my point.  Just because some members of a certain race have similar
> characteristics, you can't make a general rule for the rest.  I am not
> lactose intolerant, nor are any members of my family on both sides.  I do
> know several Caucasians who are, but there is no way one can say that all
> are.
>
> How did we ever get on this anyway??  I missed a chapter somewhere.
>
> HBC

Henry,

Clearly some folks are confusing the genetic component of lactose intolerance
with racial issues.  I don't need to remind a black man of the many times this
has happened.  There may well have been racial groups -- read genetically
isolated Native American groups -- where such a genotype became prevalent.
There may also have been many groups where lactose (the specific sugar found
in milk) was not part of their dietary experience, and where despite having
the genetics to handle it, that tolerance dies out after their mothers weaned
them if they never again consume milk products -- particularly after puberty.
Our contemporary world is filled with 'adult' folks intolerant of milk sugars
-- for genetic and other reasons.

I think that except for the improbability of Native American groups so
isolated that such a gene can gain dominance, most of the milk intolerance is
based on the short term effects of malnutrition, or the cultural effects of
not having milk in the diet since infancy.

I believe that any workers in the international aid field today would echo
these notions.

Your thoughts?

Gary, aka Heron




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Milk (aka Calico)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:25:40 -0500

Have just done some reading on this subject and found it interesting.
Doctors that deal in alternative treatments have determined that ALL
people do not have the enzymes to digest milk or milk products after the
age of 2.  I enjoy milk and milk products, and will continue, however, they
are sure that the process that the milk has to go through to meet the US
standards kills all the enzymes in it, so you must rely upon your body to
figure a way to digest it.  That is why many more people today are
lactose intolerant.

Just thought would share some things I have read during the past
several weeks.

Tim Austin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Milk (aka Calico)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 13:20:45 EDT

Oops....sorry Henry and the list. The milk thing came out of the "History of
Fort Nisqually" book and the implication, as I saw it, was that HBC was
poisoning the Indians,  kinda like what happened in Walla Walla. Before the
arrows flew this time, milk was determined to be what made the locals
sick......
There is a connection to the fur trade somewhere in there........

Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 18:44:50 -0600

I'm making  some center seam moccs with a commercially tanned elk hide.  Can
I use the smooth side in for a better look, or does this get to slick or
sticky against the skin?

Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 21:35:29 -0700

Scott'
You can do it that way and it will look better but it may also (like you
suspect) make the moc sticky inside. Go back a few weeks in this list and you
will come to a discussion of how to "improve" commercially tanned elk hides, by
carfully sanding ouf the hair side or scarf skin. What that will do is make the
leather not so streachy and if you then put the hiair side out without the scarf
skin on, it will look much better and wear quit well too. Hope this gets you
started. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Scott Singer - "Spinner" wrote:

> I'm making  some center seam moccs with a commercially tanned elk hide.  Can
> I use the smooth side in for a better look, or does this get to slick or
> sticky against the skin?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
> WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
>      http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
> Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
>      http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
> ---------------------------------------------------------------






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject)
Date: 14 Aug 1998 15:40:37 EDT

For those of you who don't know about it, there is a series coming on next
week on the History Channel you may find interesting.  All times listed are
Eastern Time.


Longshot

-------------------
Monday, August 17 9:00 PM - 10:00 PM
Tuesday, August 18 1:00 AM - 2:00 AM
Sunday, August 23 Noon - 1:00 PM


                               Frontier
                               Legends of the Old Northwest.
                               Rogers' Rangers. Meet Major Robert Rogers, an
unorthodox leader who helped create the
                               concept of commando-style fighting and wrote
down military rules still used today. His forces,
                               known as Rogers' Rangers, with their knowledge
of the terrain, camouflage, and surprise attack,
                               gained the upper hand in the British struggle
against the French in America. (cc) [TV G]
-------------------
Tuesday, August 18 9:00 PM - 10:00 PM
Wednesday, August 19 1:00 AM - 2:00 AM
Sunday, August 23 1:00 PM - 2:00 PM


                               Frontier
                               Legends of the Old Northwest.
                               Pontiac's Rebellion. Looks at the conflicts and
personalities that fueled the Native-American
                               resistance of 1763 when Ottawa war chief
Pontiac and a consortium of Woodland tribes nearly
                               wrested ten Great Lakes forts from British
hands. We'll examine Pontiac's reasons for opposing
                               the British and siding with the French during
the French and Indian Wars. (cc) [TV G]
-------------------
Wednesday, August 19 9:00 PM - 10:00 PM
Thursday, August 20 1:00 AM - 2:00 AM
Sunday, August 23 2:00 PM - 3:00 PM

                               Frontier
                               Legends of the Old Northwest.
                               The Long Knives. Story of George Rogers Clark,
Revolutionary War general and brother of
                               William Clark of the Lewis & Clark Expedition.
Leading a small army in 1777--year of "The Bloody
                               Sevens"--on secret orders from Patrick Henry,
Clark launched a series of bold and brilliant strikes
                               against the Redcoats ending in stunning victory
in Indiana in 1779. (cc) [TV G]
-------------------
Thursday, August 20 9:00 PM - 10:00 PM
Friday, August 21 1:00 AM - 2:00 AM
Sunday, August 23 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM


                               Frontier
                               Legends of the Old Northwest.
                               Tecumseh: The Dream of Confederacy. Traces the
rise of the Shawnee warrior Tecumseh and his
                               half-blind brother known as The Prophet. From
1806 to 1808, they summoned a contingent of
                               tribes to a last stand against the white men.
Looks at the rivalry between Tecumseh and William
                               Henry Harrison, who rode Tecumseh's defeat at
Tippecanoe all the way to the White House. (cc)
                               [TV G]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or out?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 18:38:04 -0600

I got a piece of good heavy, pliable, commercially tanned hide (either moose
or elk, forget which) to make a pair of soft-soled center seam moccasins.
Could I make them with the smooth side in (for looks), or is that
uncomfortable against the feet (slick, sticky, etc). Or is the "suede" side
better against the skin?  Will that make the soles more slippery?

Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or out?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 22:02:32 -0700

Like I said, Scott, they will wear better with the hair side out but they will
be slicker that way too unless you sand off the scarf skin like I suggested.
That will give them a bit more traction. If you had been using brain tan as in
the old days, you would wear the leather flesh side in and part of the process
of making brain tan is to scrape off the scarf skin. So that is the best way to
do it in my opinion. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Scott Singer wrote:

> I got a piece of good heavy, pliable, commercially tanned hide (either moose
> or elk, forget which) to make a pair of soft-soled center seam moccasins.
> Could I make them with the smooth side in (for looks), or is that
> uncomfortable against the feet (slick, sticky, etc). Or is the "suede" side
> better against the skin?  Will that make the soles more slippery?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
> WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
>      http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
> Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
>      http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
> ---------------------------------------------------------------






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or out?
Date: 20 Aug 1998 07:43:34 EDT

i would use the smooth side out but also line it with trade wool it will keep
your feet a little warmer in the mornings are if they get wet.
                                     traphand



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or out?
Date: 20 Aug 1998 08:48:25 EDT

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_903617305_boundary
Content-ID: <0_903617305@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Am sending you a listing from Mtn.man that I found interesting.  I would
personally put the smooth side of the hide IN towards my foot.  However, if
you are worried about it being too slick you could rough it up with a sander.
The other option is to line it with wool.  Cut the wool from the same pattern
that you cut the moccasin. Hope this helps.

If you have kids and want a really cheap way to go with them.  Cover a pair of
tennis shoes (preferably slip on kind) with leather.  They look like real
mocassins and keep the little feet from getting hurt.

Good luck.

Red Hawk

--part0_903617305_boundary
Content-ID: <0_903617305@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: text/plain;
    name="LEATHER"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Content-disposition: inline

<HTML><PRE><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" SIZE=3D3>Subj:=09 MtM=
an-List: commercial leather clothes
Sender:=[e-mail]
Reply-to:=[e-mail]

I have created many articles of clothing out of both braintan and
commercial leather. When constructing clothing for film, there are many
techniques for ageing and coloring leather. Another note, the white
buckskin is tanned as a formaldehyde tan. Common colored hides you see ar=
e
chrome tanned, then dyed varoius colors. We can get these white hides
readily. I like to use a smoke colored hide then use "fullers dirt" to ag=
e
it. I also air brush to add highlights. I have taken the gold buckskin an=
d
made it look great. The first thing though is to use the suede side out. =
I
have have a commercial buffer in our tannery and have buffed the grain of=
f.
Also used a sand blaster on large hides. You can use a belt sander only i=
f
you have a soft pad under the leather, otherwise you will tear holes in i=
t.
The grain does not have to be completely removed, only roughed up.

Cutting fringe very thin, will disguse the commercial look. Nothing is
better than braintan when it comes to wear and looks but with some
imagination you can create a good looking outfit. Lamb suede is great for
light shirts. Deer and elk splits are ok but tend to be weak hides. Deer =
is
stronger than elk as the fibers are closer together. Why some folks want
shirts or pants from elk other than getting the neccessary size for a lar=
ge
man is beyond me.

The best thing to do with all hides wheather braintan or commercial is to
"block" them or wet, stretch and tack out the hides till dry. This is why
some guys crotch hangs down to their knees or moccasins tend to grow a si=
ze
or two. Remember that hides have more stretch from side to side than neck
to butt. This is important in cutting leather. Also that no hide will lay
completely flat as it comes off a round animal.

If anyone is interested in some other ideas of how to age leather or tone
down the gold color, let me know. As for using" Rit out" for removing
color, just lay the hides in the sun for a couple day and the color will
fand quickly on the grain side, the suede side does not work as well. Rit
out really does not do that great of a job , and neither does bleach.

Just some thoughts

Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baske=
ts
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka



</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0f0f0f" BACK=3D"#fffffe" SIZE=3D3>

----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
Received: from  relay17.mx.aol.com (relay17.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.71])=
 by air05.mail.aol.com (v46.20) with SMTP; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:44:03 -040=
0
Received: from lists.xmission.com (lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7])
=09  by relay17.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
=09  with SMTP id UAA07759;
=09  Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:43:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1)
=09id 0z23GP-00068F-00; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:41:41 -0600
Received: from (Mailhost.wyoming.com) [199.190.151.2]
=09by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1)
=09id 0z23GM-00067l-00; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:41:38 -0600
Received: from [204.227.201.144] by Mailhost.wyoming.com
          (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c)
          ID# 601-42080U15000L1500S0) with SMTP id AAA598
          for <[e-mail]>;
          Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:40:40 -0600
X-Sender: [e-mail]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
Message-ID: <19980731004038768.AAA598@[204.227.201.144]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: [e-mail]

</PRE></HTML>


--part0_903617305_boundary--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?
Date: 20 Aug 1998 09:54:43 -0600

I just finished several pair of center seam moccasins from commercial elk
skin. I believe the suede side out gives a better appearance. The traction
on the bottom doesn't seem to make a diffence wheather it is grain side out
or suede. Both are slick on dry grass.

Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?
Date: 20 Aug 1998 09:17:42 -0700


--------------C9A16D1C3463A8B85A29ACE8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Joe is right in that they will have a better appearance if built with the suede
or scruffy side out. Looks more like brain tan. If you have the time though,
you will get better wear from them by using the hair side out and you can have
the better appearance talked about above if you sand the scarf skin or hair
side off. You might find that a 1 1/2" strap under the moc and secured with
thong around the ankle  will give an added measure of traction to slippery mocs
and it is authentic. (not always done, but I believe it was done). I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Joe Brandl wrote:

> I just finished several pair of center seam moccasins from commercial elk
> skin. I believe the suede side out gives a better appearance. The traction
> on the bottom doesn't seem to make a diffence wheather it is grain side out
> or suede. Both are slick on dry grass.
>
> Joe
>



--------------C9A16D1C3463A8B85A29ACE8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Joe is right in that they will have a better appearance if built with the
suede or scruffy side out. Looks more like brain tan. If you have the time
though, <U>you will get better wear</U> from them by using the hair side
out and you can have the better appearance talked about above if you sand
the scarf skin or hair side off. You might find that a 1 1/2" strap under
the moc and secured with thong around the ankle  will give an added
measure of traction to slippery mocs and it is authentic. (not always done,
but I believe it was done). I remain....

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti'

<P>Joe Brandl wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I just finished several pair of center seam moccasins
from commercial elk
<BR>skin. I believe the suede side out gives a better appearance. The traction
<BR>on the bottom doesn't seem to make a diffence wheather it is grain
side out
<BR>or suede. Both are slick on dry grass.

<P>Joe
<BR><A HREF="http://www.onpages.com/absaroka"></A> </BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

--------------C9A16D1C3463A8B85A29ACE8--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gail C Martini-Peterson <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126
Date: 20 Aug 1998 09:35:32 -0700

> >I just finished reading a book on the history of Fort Nisqually. Not
> long
> >after the fort was built, the HBC had cows and sheep shipped up from
> Fort
> >Vancouver. Seems the local Indians had never seen such critters and all
> got
> >quite ill from drinking the milk! The author, (a Nisqually Indian) goes
> on to
> >say that ALL Indians lack the enzyme to digest milk! I know of some
> people who
> >are "lactose in tolerate" but not an entire race.  Can this be true?
>
> Not likely.  Try telling that to all of our Indian friends who love ice
> cream.
>
> HBC

I also read somewhere that many Native Americans are for the most part
lactose intolerant. I have a friend who has this problem. Sometimes she
eats ice cream or drinks a latte because she enjoys the taste and
decides to just put up with the problems it causes.

I would guess that if someone were of mixed heritage, s/he might be less
intolerant.

What is the name of the book about Ft. Nisqually? Sounds interesting.

Gail Martini-Peterson
[e-mail]

Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
there.
        Will Rogers



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126
Date: 20 Aug 1998 16:41:54 -0500

Lactose intolerance is many times caused by the lack of an enzyme in the
digestive tract.  This enzyme is present in almost all babies but will
sometimes dissappear if the consumption of milk and milk products is
discontinued.  As some cultures discontinue the consumption of milk when the
need for breast feeding ends, lactose intolerance will often follow.  It is
not so much a racial trend as it is cultural.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----


>> >I just finished reading a book on the history of Fort Nisqually. Not
>> long
>> >after the fort was built, the HBC had cows and sheep shipped up from
>> Fort
>> >Vancouver. Seems the local Indians had never seen such critters and all
>> got
>> >quite ill from drinking the milk! The author, (a Nisqually Indian) goes
>> on to
>> >say that ALL Indians lack the enzyme to digest milk! I know of some
>> people who
>> >are "lactose in tolerate" but not an entire race.  Can this be true?
>>
>> Not likely.  Try telling that to all of our Indian friends who love ice
>> cream.
>>
>> HBC
>
>I also read somewhere that many Native Americans are for the most part
>lactose intolerant. I have a friend who has this problem. Sometimes she
>eats ice cream or drinks a latte because she enjoys the taste and
>decides to just put up with the problems it causes.
>
>I would guess that if someone were of mixed heritage, s/he might be less
>intolerant.
>
>What is the name of the book about Ft. Nisqually? Sounds interesting.
>
>Gail Martini-Peterson
>[e-mail]
>
>Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
>there.
>        Will Rogers
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126
Date: 20 Aug 1998 18:14:07 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-20 17:40:43 EDT, you write:

<<
 Lactose intolerance is many times caused by the lack of an enzyme in the
 digestive tract.  This enzyme is present in almost all babies but will
 sometimes dissappear if the consumption of milk and milk products is
 discontinued.  As some cultures discontinue the consumption of milk when the
 need for breast feeding ends, lactose intolerance will often follow.  It is
 not so much a racial trend as it is cultural.
 Lanney Ratcliff >>

Yes this is correct..however there are some genetic components in the
intolerance, as wel.  Bear in mind that there has been much interaction
between the Native americans and whites over the past 500 years, so it
shouldn't be surprising that many are now tolerant..just as some whites with
indian blood have shovel teeth and flared cheekbones..



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126
Date: 20 Aug 1998 17:55:21 -0500

  You are exactly right.  That is why I used the terms  "many times",
"almost all", "sometimes", "often follow".  With the interaction of the many
races over the years there is little that is as it was originally.  My
brother-in-law, by all appearances a red headed Irishman, drinks little or
no milk.  However, he pigs out on ice cream from time with extremely
unfortunate relsults...gas!  oh Lord, the gas!!
Lanney
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 98-08-20 17:40:43 EDT, you write:
>
><<
> Lactose intolerance is many times caused by the lack of an enzyme in the
> digestive tract.  This enzyme is present in almost all babies but will
> sometimes dissappear if the consumption of milk and milk products is
> discontinued.  As some cultures discontinue the consumption of milk when
the
> need for breast feeding ends, lactose intolerance will often follow.  It
is
> not so much a racial trend as it is cultural.
> Lanney Ratcliff >>
>
>Yes this is correct..however there are some genetic components in the
>intolerance, as wel.  Bear in mind that there has been much interaction
>between the Native americans and whites over the past 500 years, so it
>shouldn't be surprising that many are now tolerant..just as some whites
with
>indian blood have shovel teeth and flared cheekbones..
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126
Date: 20 Aug 1998 17:40:31 -0500

Washtahay-
At 06:14 PM 8/20/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Yes this is correct..however there are some genetic components in the
>intolerance, as wel.  Bear in mind that there has been much interaction
>between the Native americans and whites over the past 500 years, so it
>shouldn't be surprising that many are now tolerant..just as some whites with
>indian blood have shovel teeth and flared cheekbones..
    Or even some whites "without" Indian blood have shovel teeth and flared
cheekbones...(No, boy, your great grandma wasn't an Indian...she, um, just
worked in the fields a lot...) ;-)
LongWalker c. du B



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas H. Harbold" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject)
Date: 20 Aug 1998 19:31:04 -0400

At 3:40 PM -0400 8/14/98, <[e-mail]> wrote:
>For those of you who don't know about it, there is a series coming on next
>week on the History Channel you may find interesting.  All times listed are
>Eastern Time.
>
>
>Longshot

Watched and thoroughly enjoyed the first of these, on Roger's Rangers;
haven't been able to get to see the rest of 'em, unfortunately. I
understand the series is available, as a set, on video through the History
Channel, though -- if I could afford it, I'd pick them up! However, I'm
saving money for clothing and accoutrements...  ;-)  If you missed them on
TV, however, or can't get cable, that's another shot at 'em!

Yrs sincerely,

Tom


 Thomas H. Harbold                                   P.O. Box 1537
 [e-mail]                       Westminster, MD 21158
 www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5129             ICQ # 6198968



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject)
Date: 21 Aug 1998 00:16:05 -0600

>Watched and thoroughly enjoyed the first of these, on Roger's Rangers;
>haven't been able to get to see the rest of 'em, unfortunately. I
>understand the series is available, as a set, on video through the History
>Channel, though -- if I could afford it, I'd pick them up! However, I'm
>saving money for clothing and accoutrements...  ;-)  If you missed them on
>TV, however, or can't get cable, that's another shot at 'em!


All four of the series are being re-broadcast back-to-back this Sunday
afternoon, 12 noon EST



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?
Date: 21 Aug 1998 00:09:06 -0600

>Go back a few weeks in this list and you
>will come to a discussion of how to "improve" commercially tanned elk
hides, by
>carefully sanding off the hair side or scarf skin.

I wasn't able to find the reference you mentioned - my patience wore out
before I got through all of the most recent posting archives.  Can anyone
share the details on this process for me?

Also, I believe I have heard of wetting and stretching a commercially tanned
hide and allowing it to dry, thereby reducing the stretch of the end
garment.  Anyone have experience doing this?

Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (fwd)Negro trappers
Date: 21 Aug 1998 09:21:19 EDT

BLACK HARRIS WAS WHITE.HIS SKIN HAD BEEN DARKENED BY ,IT WAS
BELIEVED,FROSTBITE.HE WAS NOTED FOR HIS WINTER RUNS EAST TO ST. LOUIS WITH
BILL SUBLETTE. (MOUNTAIN MEN AND FUR TRADERS OF THE FAR WEST-HARVEY CARTER) IT
IS BELIEVED THE SLANG TERM FOR NEGROE WAS USED GENEROUSLY BETWEEN MOUNTAINMEN
AND ADDITIONALLY, WAS NOT A REFLECTION OF RACE.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?
Date: 21 Aug 1998 10:28:04 -0400

The April 97 issue of Muzzleblasts describes this method. Basically it
involves using a power sander to remove the scarfskin of commercially tanned
hides.


Kirk Mill

    -----Original Message-----
    From:    Scott Singer - "Spinner" [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Friday, August 21, 1998 2:09 AM
    To:    [e-mail]
    Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?

    I wasn't able to find the reference you mentioned - my patience wore
out
    before I got through all of the most recent posting archives.  Can
anyone
    share the details on this process for me?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye
Date: 21 Aug 1998 13:26:27 EDT

I read an article in Muzzleloader magazine about using natural dyes.  It was
entitled "Beyond walnut brown," and I believe was written by Cathy Johnson.  I
am sure many of you saw it.  I decided to do a little experimenting with some
bark gathered in the back yard.  I boiled some silver maple bark and got a
nice redish brown dye.  I boiled a piece of linen in it and I really like the
way it came out.  I think I am going to dye enough linen to make a hunting
shirt.  She mentioned in her article that some wood dyes need a mordant and
that tanic acid works well.  She suggested sumac leaves and berries as a
natural source of tanic acid.  I do not know if we have sumac out west (I am
in Utah), but I do know that I wouldn't recognize it if I saw it.  I was
wondering if tea leaves would work as a source of tanic acid?  Does anyone
have any other suggestions as for a natural source of tanic acid? or an
alternate mordant.  Any other advice you would have for me for my first time
dying would be appreciated.  I know that a thread went around on this not too
long ago and I intend to check the archives.

Grant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye
Date: 21 Aug 1998 20:02:56 -0700

Grant' You do have sumac out west and it may be right in town. Up here in WA. on
the east side we have one wild sumac and in towns a lot of folks grow what is call
Stag sumac. If you take the time to look it up in a botany guide you should be
able to find it. You probably want dry leaves and seed heads this fall after they
start to go dormant. The plant is basically a clumping single stalk shrub with few
limbs and leaves and seed heads at the ends of branches. The leaves are shaped
like spear points and line both sides of a foot long stem sorta like palm fronds
do. The leaves will be about as big as your index finger and pointed both ends. In
the fall after first frost the leaves will turn bright red and orange before
falling off. The stem that the leaves grow from will fall off too.

Hoe this helps. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> I read an article in Muzzleloader magazine about using natural dyes.  It was
> entitled "Beyond walnut brown," and I believe was written by Cathy Johnson.  I
> am sure many of you saw it.  I decided to do a little experimenting with some
> bark gathered in the back yard.  I boiled some silver maple bark and got a
> nice redish brown dye.  I boiled a piece of linen in it and I really like the
> way it came out.  I think I am going to dye enough linen to make a hunting
> shirt.  She mentioned in her article that some wood dyes need a mordant and
> that tanic acid works well.  She suggested sumac leaves and berries as a
> natural source of tanic acid.  I do not know if we have sumac out west (I am
> in Utah), but I do know that I wouldn't recognize it if I saw it.  I was
> wondering if tea leaves would work as a source of tanic acid?  Does anyone
> have any other suggestions as for a natural source of tanic acid? or an
> alternate mordant.  Any other advice you would have for me for my first time
> dying would be appreciated.  I know that a thread went around on this not too
> long ago and I intend to check the archives.
>
> Grant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?
Date: 21 Aug 1998 20:02:38 -0700

I thought you might find the directions on the list but I guess not. It was my
friend Tom Crooks that wrote that article. Basically what you do is wet the
leather and stretch it out on a very smooth piece of plywood hair side up. Let
it dry thoroughly. Put a sheet rock sanding sheet (used to sand off the extra
joint compound at the seams) in a palm sander not a belt or rotary sander! Take
your time and go over the hair side of the leather until you have roughed it up
a bit. You want to scuff up the scarf skin but stop before you sand through the
leather. If you are careful and use a palm sander or do it by hand with a
sanding block, you should not have any trouble. Get me off line if you have any
other questions. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Mill, Kirk wrote:

> The April 97 issue of Muzzleblasts describes this method. Basically it
> involves using a power sander to remove the scarfskin of commercially tanned
> hides.
>
>
> Kirk Mill
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Scott Singer - "Spinner" [SMTP:[e-mail]]
>         Sent:   Friday, August 21, 1998 2:09 AM
>         To:     [e-mail]
>         Subject:        Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?
>
>         I wasn't able to find the reference you mentioned - my patience wore
> out
>         before I got through all of the most recent posting archives.  Can
> anyone
>         share the details on this process for me?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye
Date: 21 Aug 1998 22:04:56 EDT

Oak bark has tannic acid.  Sumac grows all over my place. It's a weed here. I
could possibly mail you some. Let me know.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye
Date: 21 Aug 1998 14:54:12 -0400

The traditional source of tannic acid is Oak bark. Hemlock bark also has a
high tannin content. You will notice that Hemlock stumps take forever to
decompose. This is due to the tannic acid in the wood. I have heard of old
timers hollowing out Hemlock stumps to use as a vessel to soak hides. The
tannic acid leaches out of the wood and preserves the hide. That's the story
as told to me. Practically speaking, I have never tried a vegetable tan,
only alum tanning. Hope this helps.


Kirk Mill


    -----Original Message-----
    From:    [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Friday, August 21, 1998 1:26 PM
    To:    [e-mail]
    Subject:    MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

    shirt.  She mentioned in her article that some wood dyes need a
mordant and
    that tanic acid works well.  She suggested sumac leaves and berries
as a
    natural source of tanic acid.  I do not know if we have sumac out
west (I am
    in Utah), but I do know that I wouldn't recognize it if I saw it.  I
was
    wondering if tea leaves would work as a source of tanic acid?  Does
anyone
    have any other suggestions as for a natural source of tanic acid? or
an
    alternate mordant.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye
Date: 21 Aug 1998 23:38:46 EDT

Capt Lahti writes:

> Grant' You do have sumac out west and it may be right in town. Up here in
WA.
>  on the east side we have one wild sumac and in towns a lot of folks grow
what
> is call Stag sumac.

Actually, I think it's call Staghorn Sumac.

>If you take the time to look it up in a botany guide you should
> be  able to find it. You probably want dry leaves and seed heads this fall
after
> they start to go dormant. The plant is basically a clumping single stalk
shrub
> with few limbs and leaves and seed heads at the ends of branches.

I really don't know that Sumac can be used as a mordant, because it is a
dyestuff itself, generally yielding anywhere from gray to a light pinkish tan,
depending on what mordant is used with it.  I have a trade shirt that is sumac
dyed and it is more on the pink side.

The berries of the Sumac can be gathered either ripe or dry, and when crushed
in water and allowed to steep for a while, will yield a passable lemonade.  It
is slightly astringent and makes a fine thirst quencher on hot days. (Gives me
heartburn without a lot of sugar in it).  The wood is very pithy and can be
hollowed out with a steel rod or coathanger.  I used the twisted end of a
coathanger like a towworm to drag the pith out.  I have a blowpipe made from
sumac wood in this manner.  Other hollow tube-like instruments could also be
made this way, depending on your imagination.  I don't think they would make
good pipe stems, but might work in a pinch.


OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (A D)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye
Date: 22 Aug 1998 09:41:40 -0500 (CDT)

    My wife has used tea leaves in her soap crating, to help preserve
and add smell. She has also used instant coffee
this will remove smells from the body, like fish, onions, ect. Anis is
used in a soap they nicknamed " the deer walked right up to me like I
was invisable" removes humane sent. She is pleased with the way they
work, hope this will help you.

D'Wolfen





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye
Date: 22 Aug 1998 01:44:22 -0500

Haven't read Orin's magazine in over 15 years so I can't comment on this
particular article.

Mordants can be acid or alkali.  More commonly in the dyeing of cloth they=
 are
oxides or hydroxides of various metals combined with organic dye forming an
insoluble color compound in the fiber.  Many different plant parts and=
 pieces
yield colors.  Each will yield differing shades and colors depending on the
mordants used.  For example onion skins were/are commonly used in dyeing
wool.=20
Iron gives a different color than copper, which differs from lead, etc. =
 Even
the pot you cook the dye in can effect the final color.

If you are in the city drop by the local cabinet shops (SLC has many) and=
 ask
to rummage their dumpster.  Chips of oak or oak sawdust can be used to=
 extract
tannic acid.  Of course the best is live oak bark.  Maybe someone in Texas
will
send you some?  Then again it seems like maybe I heard cutting live oaks is
now
illegal.

Get a copy of the Dyer's Companion by Elijah Bemiss, 1806, reprinted by=
 Dover,
ISBN:  0-486-20601-7  -  $6.50

John...



At 01:26 PM 8/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I read an article in Muzzleloader magazine about using natural dyes.=A0 It=
 was
>entitled "Beyond walnut brown," and I believe was written by Cathy
Johnson.=A0 I
>am sure many of you saw it.=A0 I decided to do a little experimenting with=
 some
>bark gathered in the back yard.=A0 I boiled some silver maple bark and got=
 a
>nice redish brown dye.=A0 I boiled a piece of linen in it and I really like=
 the
>way it came out.=A0 I think I am going to dye enough linen to make a=
 hunting
>shirt.=A0 She mentioned in her article that some wood dyes need a mordant=
 and
>that tanic acid works well.=A0 She suggested sumac leaves and berries as a
>natural source of tanic acid.=A0 I do not know if we have sumac out west (I=
 am
>in Utah), but I do know that I wouldn't recognize it if I saw it.=A0 I was
>wondering if tea leaves would work as a source of tanic acid?=A0 Does=
 anyone
>have any other suggestions as for a natural source of tanic acid? or an
>alternate mordant.=A0 Any other advice you would have for me for my first=
 time
>dying would be appreciated.=A0 I know that a thread went around on this not=
 too
>long ago and I intend to check the archives.
>
>Grant
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye
Date: 21 Aug 1998 22:17:33 -0700

Old Fox'
Thanks for the clarifications on my post. Tired from my drive up to Spokane and
back today. I was aware that sumac is used as a dye stuff, it is mentioned in some
of Gilguns writing , I think. If the man wants to try it then I was just letting
him know it grows out here. Is the stuff growing in towns i.e. Staghorn Sumac the
same as the wild sumac that grows in the west near underground water sources?
Dosen't look the same to me. I  remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> Capt Lahti writes:
>
> > Grant' You do have sumac out west and it may be right in town. Up here in
> WA.
> >  on the east side we have one wild sumac and in towns a lot of folks grow
> what
> > is call Stag sumac.
>
> Actually, I think it's call Staghorn Sumac.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye
Date: 22 Aug 1998 19:00:50 EDT

Capt Lahti writes:

>  Is the stuff growing in towns i.e. Staghorn Sumac the
>  same as the wild sumac that grows in the west near underground water
sources?
>  Dosen't look the same to me. I  remain......

I really can't say.  The stuff around here grows best in poor soil and is
often found along railroad tracks, in old strip mines, and in other areas
where the earth is very alkaline.  If left untouched, the stuff will grow into
trees of 20 to 30 feet, and has a very nice yellow colored wood.  While is is
very ornamental in the fall because of the brilliant red color of the leaves,
it is generally considered a nuisance plant in most areas.  It doesn't seem
dependent on a water supply.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Email Address Change
Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:49:55 -0500


Just a note to notify of my email address change. It will change to:

[e-mail]


The change will become effective as of 3:00p.m. EST today. Please
make a note of it. Thank you.


Scott Allen
Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye
Date: 23 Aug 1998 10:04:51 -0700

TOF:
Sounds like the same stuff but out west in my part of the country it does depend
on the rare upwelling of ground water (we don't get as much rain as you do, like
less than 8-9" per year). The Stag Horn grown in town will grow fairly big but the
wild stuff rarely gets over 15' depending on the amount of ground water. And it
grows in what I'm sure you would describe as poor soil. It is very handsome in the
fall with it's red plumage. I tried to grow it in my back yard (the wild variety)
for a number of years but it is so invasive with a good water supply that I
finally had to kill it out. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> Capt Lahti writes:
>
> >  Is the stuff growing in towns i.e. Staghorn Sumac the
> >  same as the wild sumac that grows in the west near underground water
> sources?
> >  Dosen't look the same to me. I  remain......
>
> I really can't say.  The stuff around here grows best in poor soil and is
> often found along railroad tracks, in old strip mines, and in other areas
> where the earth is very alkaline.  If left untouched, the stuff will grow into
> trees of 20 to 30 feet, and has a very nice yellow colored wood.  While is is
> very ornamental in the fall because of the brilliant red color of the leaves,
> it is generally considered a nuisance plant in most areas.  It doesn't seem
> dependent on a water supply.
>
> OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: knives, guns
Date: 23 Aug 1998 09:20:48 +0100

A couple of recent messages asked for info on
knives and guns.
1.  A question was asked about why there is so
little detail in fur trade records about guns.  I
think that the level of detail depends on what
records you look at.  For example, I have spent a
lot of time reading AFC and other "invoice"
records from the 1810-1850 period.  These,
comparatively, are widely available on microfilm.
They contain a tremendous amount of information,
but in very, very sketchy form.  For trade guns,
(fusees), for example, the only detail commonly
given is barrel length, and sometimes not even
that.
For rifles, the most detail ( and this is usually
in the later , say mid-30s, records) is usually
the style of the gun.  "American" or "Lancaster"
or "English" for example. Occasional barrel length
or bore is specified.
This is all because these invoice records were
only
intended to be invoices and nothing more.  The
real detail is in other records, which may or may
not now exist, and which are much harder to find.
This
is primarily correspondence between manufacturers
and the fur company in which they discuss the
details of the goods being ordered or shipped.
Very few people have ever published any analysis
of this information.  The best, and most
accessible, is Hanson's "The Hawken Rifle and its
Place in History."
2.  There is a large body of mis-information
around about knives of the Rocky Mountain fur
trade (1810-40 period).
One problem is the tendency of authors to bring in
knives from a wide span of time and place and
attribute them to
mountain trappers.  The best example of this is
Russell's "Firearms Traps and tools of the
Mountain Men." The truth seems to be that the
vast, vast majority of knives available to and
used by the mountain trappers were the common
commercially manufactured knives of the time.
Those were in three primary forms:  butcher,
cartouche and scalper (four, if you include the
common folding knife.)  While numbers of the
frontier-made-one of a kind-antler handle knives
that we all like so much almost certainly were
carried to the West, when they had to be replaced
it was with a cheap, common commercial blade.
The three common trade knives were very well
established by the early 19th century.  In the
1820s and 30s, thousands upon thousands of these
knives were shipped into the West for both native
and non-native use.  While everyone knows what
butcher knives look like, scaplers and cartouche
knives are much less understood but were no less
common in the old days.  Actual surviving 19th
century cartouche knives are relatively rare
today, and actual scalpers are extremely rare.
The best FACTUAL treatment of trade knives that I
have seen published is Hanson's three-part series
that was published in the Mus Fur Trade Quarterly
some years ago.  Sorry, I don't have the cite as I
write this, but I'll try to post it later if
anyone wants.
I've gone on too long as it is.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wefarmasmidgen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sumac Dye
Date: 23 Aug 1998 07:51:15 -0500

Old Fox noted that sumac dyes a pinkish brown.  This is true for the first
bit before getting it in the light much.  After a while, it turns a nice
brown/tan color because that pink is not light fast.  I used alum for the
mordant and dyed wool yarn.

Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen
in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: seanbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns
Date: 23 Aug 1998 21:50:10 -0400

I was at the Museum of the Fur Trade last week and they have a LARGE
collection of Fur Trade era "Trade" guns there.  One of the myths is that
the "trade" gund had no rear sights.  I saw at least 20 there that DID have
sights on them.  OK, NMLRA, get with it and allow trade guns with rear
sights in your "Trade Gun" competetion....  I intend to send them pictures
of them with a letter requesting this...

Addison Miller
-----Original Message-----


>A couple of recent messages asked for info on
>knives and guns.
>1.  A question was asked about why there is so
>little detail in fur trade records about guns.  I
>think that the level of detail depends on what
>records you look at.  For example, I have spent a
>lot of time reading AFC and other "invoice"
>records from the 1810-1850 period.  These,
>comparatively, are widely available on microfilm.
>They contain a tremendous amount of information,
>but in very, very sketchy form.  For trade guns,
>(fusees), for example, the only detail commonly
>given is barrel length, and sometimes not even
>that.
>For rifles, the most detail ( and this is usually
>in the later , say mid-30s, records) is usually
>the style of the gun.  "American" or "Lancaster"
>or "English" for example. Occasional barrel length
>or bore is specified.
>This is all because these invoice records were
>only
>intended to be invoices and nothing more.  The
>real detail is in other records, which may or may
>not now exist, and which are much harder to find.
>This
>is primarily correspondence between manufacturers
>and the fur company in which they discuss the
>details of the goods being ordered or shipped.
>Very few people have ever published any analysis
>of this information.  The best, and most
>accessible, is Hanson's "The Hawken Rifle and its
>Place in History."
>2.  There is a large body of mis-information
>around about knives of the Rocky Mountain fur
>trade (1810-40 period).
>One problem is the tendency of authors to bring in
>knives from a wide span of time and place and
>attribute them to
>mountain trappers.  The best example of this is
>Russell's "Firearms Traps and tools of the
>Mountain Men." The truth seems to be that the
>vast, vast majority of knives available to and
>used by the mountain trappers were the common
>commercially manufactured knives of the time.
>Those were in three primary forms:  butcher,
>cartouche and scalper (four, if you include the
>common folding knife.)  While numbers of the
>frontier-made-one of a kind-antler handle knives
>that we all like so much almost certainly were
>carried to the West, when they had to be replaced
>it was with a cheap, common commercial blade.
>The three common trade knives were very well
>established by the early 19th century.  In the
>1820s and 30s, thousands upon thousands of these
>knives were shipped into the West for both native
>and non-native use.  While everyone knows what
>butcher knives look like, scaplers and cartouche
>knives are much less understood but were no less
>common in the old days.  Actual surviving 19th
>century cartouche knives are relatively rare
>today, and actual scalpers are extremely rare.
>The best FACTUAL treatment of trade knives that I
>have seen published is Hanson's three-part series
>that was published in the Mus Fur Trade Quarterly
>some years ago.  Sorry, I don't have the cite as I
>write this, but I'll try to post it later if
>anyone wants.
>I've gone on too long as it is.
>Allen Chronister
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns
Date: 23 Aug 1998 18:23:53 -0700

Allen,

Excellent comments on knifes.  If possible, please cite the which Museum
of the Fur Trade Quarterly you referred to.  I'd like to do some further
reading.  I've carried a butcher knife with a bone handle, which I found
in an antique store, for some time.  I made  a rawhide sheath with brass
tacks patterned after some museum
 pieces I've seen.  It appears quite old and has fit all my needs since
acquired.

John Funk

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: More questions on Dyeing
Date: 23 Aug 1998 20:18:28 EDT

Many of you have mentioned using oak and I am wondering if the scrub oak that
we have here would work?  I am no botanist and don't know if is a true oak or
not, but I do know that there is ton's of it on the hill sides near by.  I am
going to do some looking to see if I can find any information on scrub oak and
I will let you know if I find anything.  The neighbor next door has an oak
tree whose branches hang over our fence.  I am sure that I could harvest some
acorns from a few branches and not hurt anyones feelings.  Do they still work
if green?  Anyway, I think I am going to experiment this coming weekend with a
dye bath of maple bark and oak bark (if I feel comfortable with the scrub
oak).  I will let you know the outcome.  Thanks again for all the help.

Grant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns
Date: 24 Aug 1998 08:43:27 -0600 (CST)


>The best FACTUAL treatment of trade knives that I
>have seen published is Hanson's three-part series
>that was published in the Mus Fur Trade Quarterly
>some years ago.  Sorry, I don't have the cite as I
>write this, but I'll try to post it later if
>anyone wants.

The articles are: "The Scalping knife" in Spring 1987 issue of _MFTQ_,
"The Cartouche Knife" in the Summer "87 issue, and "The Butcher Knife" fall
"87 issue.  Additionally, there is a good "update" article in the Winter
1993 _MFTQ_ on Green River knives.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More questions on Dyeing
Date: 24 Aug 1998 09:28:24 EDT

I see all these questions wanting to know about where they can find sumac or
oak (bark).  I have 80 acres where we are cutting it down.  If anyone is
interested and not it to big of a hurry (I have a regular job).  I would be
glad to send them some in the mail, if they will just pay the postage.  Being
a trapper and Rendezvous reinactor myself, I know sometimes it's hard to find
certin items.  The trade system is still alive here. Just let me
know.                                                                                                                                            TrapR Joe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More questions on Dyeing
Date: 24 Aug 1998 00:20:33 EDT

Grant writes:

> Many of you have mentioned using oak and I am wondering if the scrub oak
> that we have here would work?  I am no botanist and don't know if is a true
oak
> or not, but I do know that there is ton's of it on the hill sides near by

Grant,
If I remember right, you are just trying to get some tannin.  Instead of
peelin' trees, just go buy a bag of them redwood chips that they use for
landscaping mulch.  Should give you all you need.
OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: knives etc.
Date: 24 Aug 1998 08:59:23 +0100

Henry Crawford has posted the cites to the MFT
articles that I mentioned.  Thanks a lot for doing
that, Henry.
Also, anyone who does not have a complete set of
the MFT Quarterlies should get them.  As far as I
know all issues they have ever published are still
available.  Many of the early years have be
reprinted into a single volume for each year,
which makes them even more handy.  While I no
longer recall what it costs to get a complete set,
it is not too much and the information is more
than worth the cost.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...
Date: 24 Aug 1998 12:03:36 -0700

I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather already
made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do?

Gail



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...
Date: 24 Aug 1998 21:55:58 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-24 15:11:41 EDT, you write:

> I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather already
>  made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do?

Gail,
He wants the redwood bark as a mordant for another dye.  He is not using it to
dye anything.  If you want to dye mocassins just use walnut dye.  Walnuts are
falling now.  Gather the hulls and let them soak in water until the color is
concentrated.  Then strain off the liquid and use it to dye your mocs.
Putting them in a pair of panty hose and tying off the top will prevent all
the nasty solids from getting all over the leather.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such
Date: 24 Aug 1998 19:13:11 -0500

Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website?
Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron,
Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska.
Thanks,
Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ron Valley <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...
Date: 24 Aug 1998 17:16:17 -0400

Gail,

I'm sorry, but I deleted the note(s) earlier about using red wood chips for
dying leather.  I believe that it came over the HIST TEXT thread.  I
personally don't understand why someone would use lawn & garden chips (that
may themselves, have been DYED to help make them a deeper color) to dye
their leather, mocs or anything else... but whatever.  It is certainly my
choice and perhaps my loss, and at the risk of offending someone (and I know
that I will) I usually scan over this kind of advise rather quickly, or
don't read the entire note as is the case here.  So, my apologizes to you if
I'm out of line.

Anyhow, there have many good notes submitted on the tanning process and
recent reference to the use of oak bark (and others) when 'bark tanning' a
hide, in the HIST TEXT.  All good information for reference if considering
tanning a hide.  But as for changing the color of pre-existing commercially
tanned (and perhaps made) mocs... since you have commercial leather, you may
have to use a leather dye to change the color of your mocs, if that is what
you want.  Or, simply USE them and keep them well waxed!  The "yellow" color
of the leather will age rather quickly with use and change to a much darker
color in the process.  Bees wax and tallow or a good commercial product like
"sno-seal" works very well.

Oh, by the way, I noticed in the header of your message that you (or perhaps
someone before you, if you replied to a previous message) addressed your
attached message to the "American Mountain Men".  Someone apparently has
that 'name' typed in their "address book" as a quick reference or name to
'click on' when e-mailing.   You most likely already realize this, but while
many of the subscribers who chat in the HIST TEXT are indeed members of the
AMM, not all who subscribe or write and express their views there are
members (of the AMM).  I find that most of the good folks who submit their
personal experiences, reference materials and the like have been
re-enacting, attending rendezvous and have been passionately involved with
this era of America's History for many, many years.  Whether their interest
is recreational and / or professional, they possess a wealth of experience &
knowledge and I personally owe them my gratitude & thanks for all of the
invaluable direction and information I've received from this file.

I hope this has been of some help to you and good luck with your mocs.

Ron  Valley
AMM  # 1353

    -----Original Message-----
    From:    Gail Carbiener [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Monday, August 24, 1998 3:04 PM
    To:    American Mountain Men
    Subject:    MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...

    I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather
already
    made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do?

    Gail



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such
Date: 24 Aug 1998 21:27:27 -0600

At 07:13 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website?
>Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron,
>Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska.
>Thanks,
>Pendleton
>

Don't know that the MFT has their own website, but try

http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/mftq.html

The address for ordering back issues is there, and also a cumulative table
of contents, that should be helpful in looking up citations on articles
like the Knife articles recently discussed.

-Dean



Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such
Date: 25 Aug 1998 08:45:59 -0600 (CST)

>Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website?
>Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron,
>Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska.
>Thanks,
>Pendleton


The phone number is 308/432-3843.  The Director is Gail Potter, a friend of
mine.  Tell her hi.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?
Date: 24 Aug 1998 18:43:17 -0600

Thanks Roger, I'm ready to set right to work now!  I'll share any
developments or observations from this experience with this list.
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833


-----Original Message-----


>I thought you might find the directions on the list but I guess not. It was
my
>friend Tom Crooks that wrote that article. Basically what you do is wet the
>leather and stretch it out on a very smooth piece of plywood hair side up.
Let
>it dry thoroughly. Put a sheet rock sanding sheet (used to sand off the
extra
>joint compound at the seams) in a palm sander not a belt or rotary sander!
Take
>your time and go over the hair side of the leather until you have roughed
it up
>a bit. You want to scuff up the scarf skin but stop before you sand through
the
>leather. If you are careful and use a palm sander or do it by hand with a
>sanding block, you should not have any trouble. Get me off line if you have
any
>other questions. I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Mill, Kirk wrote:
>
>> The April 97 issue of Muzzleblasts describes this method. Basically it
>> involves using a power sander to remove the scarfskin of commercially
tanned
>> hides.
>>
>>
>> Kirk Mill
>>
>>         -----Original Message-----
>>         From:   Scott Singer - "Spinner"
[SMTP:[e-mail]]
>>         Sent:   Friday, August 21, 1998 2:09 AM
>>         To:     [e-mail]
>>         Subject:        Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or
outside?
>>
>>         I wasn't able to find the reference you mentioned - my patience
wore
>> out
>>         before I got through all of the most recent posting archives.
Can
>> anyone
>>         share the details on this process for me?
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such
Date: 24 Aug 1998 21:03:33 -0700

Museum of the Fur Trade does have this page as part of the Chamber of Commerce
ad for Chadron http://www.chadron.com/furtrade/index.htm
but it doesn't give their address.
I know it was posted before so I guess it's off to the archives to look for it!

Medicine Bear

Dean Rudy wrote:

> At 07:13 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website?
> >Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron,
> >Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska.
> >Thanks,
> >Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John Diestler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Note on Oak bark tanning
Date: 25 Aug 1998 11:06:30 -0700

Ron Valley wrote:
>=20
> Anyhow, there have many good notes submitted on the tanning process and
> recent reference to the use of oak bark (and others) when 'bark tanning=
' a
> hide=85


Tim Severin, historian/author of "The St. Brendan Voyage," tried to recre=
ate
the old Irish leather boat technology. After testing dozens of tanning
processes, the only one that stood up to the constant salt water environm=
ent
was "oak bark" tanning. Severin made the point that the original manuscri=
pts
had specified "oak bark" tanning, with lots of sheeps wool (lanolin) grea=
se.
Severin used this and other specifications to prove that the St Brendan
manuscript was a factual account of sailing from Ireland to Newfoundland =
in
leather boats more than 400 years before Columbus.

I've often read that the best moccasins were made from the tops of old
teepees, smoked from years of use.  I wonder if prior to the smoking, wha=
t was
the standard tanning process for teepee skins?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: MtMan-List: Vacation
Date: 25 Aug 1998 12:07:17 -0400

I want to thank all of you that sent me ideas for places to see when I went
on my trip to the Dakotas and Nebraska.  Took 12 rolls of film (2d mortgage
on house to get film processed), went to Mt Rushmore, MFT, Black Hills, MANY
little museums in the areas, stopped and read hundreds of Historic Site
markers, Custer State PArk, Cave of the Winds, Platte River area, Ft
Robinson, etc... etc... etc...  Never knew so much could be crammed into 8
days.  Put 2000 miles on a rental car!!, and still managed to see bunches of
stuff.

If was really almost a "religious" experience to sit by the Platte River and
know that this was where "they" had travelled. Spent time just contemplating
the scenery and wondering if they had camped where I was sitting.

Museum of the Fur Trade is GREAT!!!  I had a major question answered there
regarding "trade" guns with rear sights.  Yeppers... they have several on
their shelves.  Took pictures and will be putting it on my web site in the
near future.  NMLRA, check your history!!! <grin>

Thanks again....

Addison Miller



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns
Date: 25 Aug 1998 09:42:01 -0600

Allen Chronister <[e-mail]> wrote, in part:

>>1.  A question was asked about why there is so
little detail in fur trade records about guns... AFC
and other "invoice" records from the 1810-1850
period... contain a tremendous amount of information,
but in very, very sketchy form.  For trade guns,
(fusees), for example, the only detail commonly
given is barrel length, and sometimes not even
that...This is all because these invoice records were
only intended to be invoices and nothing more. <<

Well said! This is also true of the North West
Company and Hudson's Bay Company inventories
I have seen from the 1774-1821 period.
I have seen no records of either company selling
rifles.

>>2.  There is a large body of mis-information
around about knives of the Rocky Mountain fur
trade (1810-40 period)....The truth seems to be that the
vast, vast majority of knives available to and
used by the mountain trappers were the common
commercially manufactured knives of the time.
Those were in three primary forms:  butcher,
cartouche and scalper (four, if you include the
common folding knife.) <<

Again, I think Allen is right on here. A large variety
of knives appear on HBC & NWC inventory
lists, but, like the guns, we get few details. Some
examples: "large knives", "small knives", "cartouche
knives", "buck handled knives", "dags", "butchers knives",
"roach knives", "buck hand[led?] clasping knife",
"iron knives", "scalpers", "steel daggers", "iron daggers",
"yew-handled knives", "women's knives", "common
clasp knives", "double-bladed knives", "eyed dags",
"box[wood] handled butcher knives", "bayonetts",
& "crooked knives". The most commonly-listed knives
were large knives, small knives, clasp knives, & dags.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Museum of the Fur Trade Web Page
Date: 25 Aug 1998 10:25:56 -0500

I found this:

http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous/museum.htm



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Museum Fur Trade
Date: 25 Aug 1998 15:37:03 +0100

Someone requested info on contacting the Museum of
the Fur Trade.
The last address I had was:
MFT
6321 Hwy. 20
Chadron, NE  69337
phone:  [phone]

Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such
Date: 25 Aug 1998 16:17:17 EDT

MUSEUM OF FUR TRADE
HC 74 BOX18
CHADRON, NEBRASKA 69337
-JOE



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College
Date: 26 Aug 1998 08:33:16 -0600 (CST)

What are the dates for this year's Rocky Mountain College?

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives etc.
Date: 25 Aug 1998 17:09:55 -0700

HBC...&...Allen,

Thanks for the response.  I will look up the articles.

Your right, Allen.  The back issues of the  Fur Trade Quarterly are well
worth the essence...which isn't much compared to the value of the
information they contain.  A couple of years back the back issues ran, I
think, something like $140.00 American) which included a master index.

Again, thanks for the info....

John Funk

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...
Date: 25 Aug 1998 10:00:24 -0700

Ron and Old Fox:
    Sure appreciate you getting me on the right track. Used to live in
Modesto, California heart of walnut country with plenty of oaks also. Now am
in mountains of central oregon so will try the bees was or sno-seal on my
mocs.
    Thansk again -  Gail
=======================================
-----Original Message-----


>Gail,
>
>I'm sorry, but I deleted the note(s) earlier about using red wood chips for
>dying leather.  I believe that it came over the HIST TEXT thread.  I
>personally don't understand why someone would use lawn & garden chips (that
>may themselves, have been DYED to help make them a deeper color) to dye
>their leather, mocs or anything else... but whatever.  It is certainly my
>choice and perhaps my loss, and at the risk of offending someone (and I
know
>that I will) I usually scan over this kind of advise rather quickly, or
>don't read the entire note as is the case here.  So, my apologizes to you
if
>I'm out of line.
>
>Anyhow, there have many good notes submitted on the tanning process and
>recent reference to the use of oak bark (and others) when 'bark tanning' a
>hide, in the HIST TEXT.  All good information for reference if considering
>tanning a hide.  But as for changing the color of pre-existing commercially
>tanned (and perhaps made) mocs... since you have commercial leather, you
may
>have to use a leather dye to change the color of your mocs, if that is what
>you want.  Or, simply USE them and keep them well waxed!  The "yellow"
color
>of the leather will age rather quickly with use and change to a much darker
>color in the process.  Bees wax and tallow or a good commercial product
like
>"sno-seal" works very well.
>
>Oh, by the way, I noticed in the header of your message that you (or
perhaps
>someone before you, if you replied to a previous message) addressed your
>attached message to the "American Mountain Men".  Someone apparently has
>that 'name' typed in their "address book" as a quick reference or name to
>'click on' when e-mailing.   You most likely already realize this, but
while
>many of the subscribers who chat in the HIST TEXT are indeed members of the
>AMM, not all who subscribe or write and express their views there are
>members (of the AMM).  I find that most of the good folks who submit their
>personal experiences, reference materials and the like have been
>re-enacting, attending rendezvous and have been passionately involved with
>this era of America's History for many, many years.  Whether their interest
>is recreational and / or professional, they possess a wealth of experience
&
>knowledge and I personally owe them my gratitude & thanks for all of the
>invaluable direction and information I've received from this file.
>
>I hope this has been of some help to you and good luck with your mocs.
>
>Ron  Valley
>AMM  # 1353
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gail Carbiener [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Monday, August 24, 1998 3:04 PM
> To: American Mountain Men
> Subject: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...
>
> I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather
>already
> made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do?
>
> Gail



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Charlie P. Webb)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College
Date: 26 Aug 1998 09:07:17 -0600

HBC,
I apologize for doing this twice, but those of us with CRS
usually don't get out all the information the first time <<<ggg>>>
    For the 1999 Rocky Mountain College dates, e-mail
John Switzer Booshway,  at [e-mail]   The date as
for 1999 is set as well as the location.  I know the location, but
not the dates, John will help you.
C Webb
AKA Old Coyote

(Henry B. Crawford) writes:
>What are the dates for this year's Rocky Mountain College?
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: knives, tipis
Date: 26 Aug 1998 09:03:05 +0100

Angela Gottfried's recent message about knives
points out another problem with invoice records,
which is the use of slang, trade and common names
for various items.  This makes deciphering very
difficult at times when a very wide array of terms
is used to describe blankets, cloth, knives and
other items.  In addition, there are differences
between the terms uxed in American company records
and those used in the HBC (of the same period).
The "womens knives" noted by Angela for example
could be the Ulus used in the far north, which
would not show up on American lists.
American lists, too, have knives listed only by
the handle material (such as buck, bone, wood,
green bone, etc) but without noting the blade
style.  My guess is that they were mostly scalpers
or cartouche knives.
"Dags" were the beaver-tail stabber knives that
were popular with the Native folks.  They were
sold hafted and un-hafted.  A "bayonette" was a
type of dag, but with a long triangular blade.  An
"eyed dag" I believe, was the hafted dag knife
with black horn scales inlaid with brass circles
("eyes").  For some reason, some writers have
chosen to ascribe all kinds of unlikely meanings
to the term "eyed dag."  Clasp or clasping knives
were folding knives, and double blaked knives were
folders with two blades.  A roach knife was "roach
belly" shape blade which is sort of like a more
rounded scalper.
Also, someone mentioned mocs made of old tipi top
material.  The leather from worn out lodge covers
was a prime material used by Plains women to make
clothing, including mocs, and upon  which to do
bead and quillwork.  It was a dark chocolate
brown, soft, flexible and felt-like.  Much old
beadwork is done on this material, and you can see
it if you look closely, especially if you can see
the back side.  All the ethnographic accounts, as
far as I have ever read, do not describe any
special process for tanning lodge skins.  ie, they
were "brain tanned" like everything else.  They
were usually cow skins that were thinned in all
thick areas to make them as uniform as possible.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vacation
Date: 26 Aug 1998 17:02:56 -0400

addison please post your website location so that we can check out the
pictures---especially the interested in the photoes of the trade
guns---would pay for a copy of prints of the guns---especially if you
have any with names or background info---
could also use digital copies---on disk---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:07:17 -0400 [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
writes:
>I want to thank all of you that sent me ideas for places to see when I
>went
>on my trip to the Dakotas and Nebraska.  Took 12 rolls of film (2d
>mortgage
>on house to get film processed), went to Mt Rushmore, MFT, Black
>Hills, MANY
>little museums in the areas, stopped and read hundreds of Historic
>Site
>markers, Custer State PArk, Cave of the Winds, Platte River area, Ft
>Robinson, etc... etc... etc...  Never knew so much could be crammed
>into 8
>days.  Put 2000 miles on a rental car!!, and still managed to see
>bunches of
>stuff.
>
>If was really almost a "religious" experience to sit by the Platte
>River and
>know that this was where "they" had travelled. Spent time just
>contemplating
>the scenery and wondering if they had camped where I was sitting.
>
>Museum of the Fur Trade is GREAT!!!  I had a major question answered
>there
>regarding "trade" guns with rear sights.  Yeppers... they have several
>on
>their shelves.  Took pictures and will be putting it on my web site in
>the
>near future.  NMLRA, check your history!!! <grin>
>
>Thanks again....
>
>Addison Miller
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Madison Grant Books
Date: 27 Aug 1998 09:12:49 EDT

Does anyone know of a source for Madison Grants books on hunting pouches and
home spun knives?  I tried Amazon and they did not have them.  James Townsend
used to carry them, but don't list them in the catalog anymore.  Any help
would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Grant



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Singer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College
Date: 27 Aug 1998 00:58:21 -0600

Rocky Mountain College has already passed.  It was the first week of August.

Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833


-----Original Message-----


>What are the dates for this year's Rocky Mountain College?
>
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: madison grant books
Date: 27 Aug 1998 08:52:12 +0100

just after I posted the address for interloc.com I
tried them for Madison Grant books.
The only one they had was one copy of the hunting
pouch book for $75.
If you want it you better hurry.  Couldn't find
the knife or powder horn books.
Allen Chronister.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: book source
Date: 27 Aug 1998 08:44:07 +0100

for out of print books I've had good luck with:
www.interloc.com
You can searchby topic  or can list the title or
author.  I've found
a number of books through this service.  Its a
joint effort
of a number of book dealers.  If you find a title
you want there
is a listing of each volume for sale, with
condition and price and
the name of the dealer.
Allen Chronister



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Colleen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Madison Grant Books
Date: 27 Aug 1998 09:09:42 -0500


> Does anyone know of a source for Madison Grants books on hunting pouches and
> home spun knives?

Grant:

Try:  Golden Age Arms
         PO Box 366
         Ashley, OH  43003
         [phone]

Colleen



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vacation
Date: 27 Aug 1998 12:47:27 -0400

*chuckles* As soon as the 2d mortgage is approved on the house so I can get
the film developed, they will be on my "Ronnyvous" web site.  Seriously, by
Tuesday or Wed they will be on the site.  I have to pick them up and then
scan them in.  There wasn't any information available on the pieces, but I
may be able to write and get some.  I didn't take pictures of all of the
trade guns with rear sights, just 6 or so of the best examples.  Depending
on how the pix turn out, and what kind of printer you have, just DL the
photo and print it.  I usually get great results with that. My site is
located at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/1427    It will be under a
separate page listed in the index.

Addison Miller
aka Seanbear

>addison please post your website location so that we can check out the
>pictures---especially the interested in the photoes of the trade
>guns---would pay for a copy of prints of the guns---especially if you
>have any with names or background info---
>could also use digital copies---on disk---
>      "Hawk"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
>On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:07:17 -0400 [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
>writes:
>>I want to thank all of you that sent me ideas for places to see when I
>>went
>>on my trip to the Dakotas and Nebraska.  Took 12 rolls of film (2d
>>mortgage
>>on house to get film processed), went to Mt Rushmore, MFT, Black
>>Hills, MANY
>>little museums in the areas, stopped and read hundreds of Historic
>>Site
>>markers, Custer State PArk, Cave of the Winds, Platte River area, Ft
>>Robinson, etc... etc... etc...  Never knew so much could be crammed
>>into 8
>>days.  Put 2000 miles on a rental car!!, and still managed to see
>>bunches of
>>stuff.
>>
>>If was really almost a "religious" experience to sit by the Platte
>>River and
>>know that this was where "they" had travelled. Spent time just
>>contemplating
>>the scenery and wondering if they had camped where I was sitting.
>>
>>Museum of the Fur Trade is GREAT!!!  I had a major question answered
>>there
>>regarding "trade" guns with rear sights.  Yeppers... they have several
>>on
>>their shelves.  Took pictures and will be putting it on my web site in
>>the
>>near future.  NMLRA, check your history!!! <grin>
>>
>>Thanks again....
>>
>>Addison Miller
>>
>>
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Madison Grant Books
Date: 27 Aug 1998 12:16:57 EDT

A book dealer named Jim Hayden was at the Rocky Mountain Natioanl Rendezvous
last month. He had all of grants books at the usual proces (around $35.00 ea)
He's from Oregon, will look for his card in my chest tonight.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  MtMan-List: madison grant books
Date: 28 Aug 1998 00:54:54 EDT

While you boys are looking up books, you might want to find a copy of
Washington Irving's "Adventures of Captain Bonneville"  For those of you who
have not read the book, it's a narration of Capt Bonneville's near three years
(1833-35) of travel in the Rocky Mountains and provides an outstanding view of
what it was like. I'm close to finishing the book but find myself rereading
paragraphs and whole chapters for the details.
Washington, (Bonneville) points out that besides the "free trapper" and "hired
or company trapper" there was another.....  "There is an inferior order who,
either from prudence or poverty, come to these dangerous hunting grounds
without horses or accoutrements, and are furnished by the traders. These, like
the hired trappers, are bound to exert themselves to the utmost in taking
beaver, which , without skinning, they render in at the trader's lodge, where
a stipulated price for each is placed to their credit. These, though
generally included in the generic name of free trappers, have the more
specific title of skin trappers."
Any trapper that has tried to skin a beaver, or for that matter, an otter or
wolverine know, they don't give up the hide without a lot of work! I would
have an Indian in western Alaska skin the beavers for the meat and considered
it a fair trade.
Anyway, the book is a must read for folks like us......
Steve




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vacation
Date: 27 Aug 1998 21:11:15 -0700

still havent got that note regarding the trigger guard.  iron tongue
Michael Pierce wrote:

> addison please post your website location so that we can check out the
> pictures---especially the interested in the photoes of the trade
> guns---would pay for a copy of prints of the guns---especially if you
> have any with names or background info---
> could also use digital copies---on disk---
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:07:17 -0400 [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
> writes:
> >I want to thank all of you that sent me ideas for places to see when I
> >went
> >on my trip to the Dakotas and Nebraska.  Took 12 rolls of film (2d
> >mortgage
> >on house to get film processed), went to Mt Rushmore, MFT, Black
> >Hills, MANY
> >little museums in the areas, stopped and read hundreds of Historic
> >Site
> >markers, Custer State PArk, Cave of the Winds, Platte River area, Ft
> >Robinson, etc... etc... etc...  Never knew so much could be crammed
> >into 8
> >days.  Put 2000 miles on a rental car!!, and still managed to see
> >bunches of
> >stuff.
> >
> >If was really almost a "religious" experience to sit by the Platte
> >River and
> >know that this was where "they" had travelled. Spent time just
> >contemplating
> >the scenery and wondering if they had camped where I was sitting.
> >
> >Museum of the Fur Trade is GREAT!!!  I had a major question answered
> >there
> >regarding "trade" guns with rear sights.  Yeppers... they have several
> >on
> >their shelves.  Took pictures and will be putting it on my web site in
> >the
> >near future.  NMLRA, check your history!!! <grin>
> >
> >Thanks again....
> >
> >Addison Miller
> >
> >
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Madison Grant Books
Date: 28 Aug 1998 08:28:26 -0700

James D. Hayden
book peddler
88360 Charly Lane
Springfield, OR. 97478
[phone]

I remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> A book dealer named Jim Hayden was at the Rocky Mountain Natioanl Rendezvous
> last month. He had all of grants books at the usual proces (around $35.00 ea)
> He's from Oregon, will look for his card in my chest tonight.
>
> Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Madison Grant Books
Date: 28 Aug 1998 19:36:55 EDT

try the emporium in ava mo. phone # is 683-2764 isaw all three book there.
                                           traphand



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "James C. Zeigler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle
Date: 30 Aug 1998 11:56:52 -0400

Hello:
       I was wondering if anyone knows of a semi-custom maker

 of a H.E. Leman rife? I was thinking about getting a full-

 stock flinter.....Thanks in advance, Jim Z.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Forrest Smouse <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle
Date: 30 Aug 1998 15:19:49 -0600

James C. Zeigler wrote:
>
> Hello:
>        I was wondering if anyone knows of a semi-custom maker
>
>  of a H.E. Leman rife? I was thinking about getting a full-
>
>  stock flinter.....Thanks in advance, Jim Z.

I have a friend who worked for green river rifle years ago. When they
went out of business he picked up a number of barrels and stocks.  I one
as a Leman Flinter as a kit from his about five years age.  If you have
him make it, it may take well over a year for him to finish it.  To
contact him

Les Bennett
Uintah Basin Applied Technology Center
1100 East Lagoon St. 124-5
Roosevelt, Ut 84066

[e-mail]

Good luck,
Forrest Smouse



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: commrecial brain tan
Date: 30 Aug 1998 17:03:55 -0500

Has anybody had any first hand experience with commercial brain tan? I know
there is no substitute for the real thing, but deer hides that are large
enough to make leggins and coats out of are real hard to come by in Texas.
I'm working on getting some that are that large this season but there is no
 sure thing. I was just wondering if anyone has any knowledge of how the
commercial stuff works for clothing.
 Pendleton
P.S.
A buddy of mine is making some shooting bags out of it that are real nice.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Forrest Smouse <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle
Date: 30 Aug 1998 15:19:49 -0600

James C. Zeigler wrote:
>
> Hello:
>        I was wondering if anyone knows of a semi-custom maker
>
>  of a H.E. Leman rife? I was thinking about getting a full-
>
>  stock flinter.....Thanks in advance, Jim Z.

I have a friend who worked for green river rifle years ago. When they
went out of business he picked up a number of barrels and stocks.  I one
as a Leman Flinter as a kit from his about five years age.  If you have
him make it, it may take well over a year for him to finish it.  To
contact him

Les Bennett
Uintah Basin Applied Technology Center
1100 East Lagoon St. 124-5
Roosevelt, Ut 84066

[e-mail]

Good luck,
Forrest Smouse



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: commrecial brain tan
Date: 30 Aug 1998 19:37:29 EDT

As a quillworker, I HATE it.  The fibers are not broken down enough to lend
itself to being a good base for quill or beadwork.  It may be a good
substitute for clothing as it does look nice

Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: commercial brain tan
Date: 30 Aug 1998 18:26:47 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BDD443.BF2F7E20
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well two years ago my wife and I purchased some Tandy Brain Tan and it
worked real well Karen is offended with the smoke of the Hand done stuff.
She has so far sewn on over 4000 beads and it sews like hand done stuff. It
was about 3.90 a square yard better then 10.00 hope this will help.

----------
: From: yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: MtMan-List: commrecial brain tan
: Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 3:03 PM
:
: Has anybody had any first hand experience with commercial brain tan? I
know
: there is no substitute for the real thing, but deer hides that are large
: enough to make leggins and coats out of are real hard to come by in
Texas.
: I'm working on getting some that are that large this season but there is
no
:  sure thing. I was just wondering if anyone has any knowledge of how the
: commercial stuff works for clothing.
:  Pendleton
: P.S.
: A buddy of mine is making some shooting bags out of it that are real
nice.
:
------=_NextPart_000_01BDD443.BF2F7E20
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Well two years ago my wife and I =
purchased some Tandy Brain Tan and it worked real well Karen is offended =
with the smoke of the Hand done stuff.  She has so far sewn on over =
4000 beads and it sews like hand done stuff. It was about 3.90 a square =
yard better then 10.00 hope this will help. <br><br>----------<br>: =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: MtMan-List: commrecial brain tan<br>: =
first hand experience with commercial brain tan? I know<br>: there is no =
substitute for the real thing, but deer hides that are large<br>: enough =
to make leggins and coats out of are real hard to come by in Texas.<br>: =
I'm working on getting some that are that large this season but there is =
no<br>:  sure thing. I was just wondering if anyone has any =
knowledge of how the<br>: commercial stuff works for clothing.<br>: =
 Pendleton<br>: P.S.<br>: A buddy of mine is making some shooting =
bags out of it that are real nice.<br>: </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BDD443.BF2F7E20--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: commercial brain tan
Date: 31 Aug 1998 02:33:48 -0400

JOHN BET YOU MENT A SQ FT NOT YARD---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:26:47 -0700 "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>ncoding: 7bit
>
>Well two years ago my wife and I purchased some Tandy Brain Tan and it
>worked real well Karen is offended with the smoke of the Hand done
>stuff.
>She has so far sewn on over 4000 beads and it sews like hand done
>stuff. It
>was about 3.90 a square yard better then 10.00 hope this will help.
>
>----------
>: From: yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]>
>: To: [e-mail]
>: Subject: MtMan-List: commrecial brain tan
>: Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 3:03 PM
>:
>: Has anybody had any first hand experience with commercial brain tan?
>I
>know
>: there is no substitute for the real thing, but deer hides that are
>large
>: enough to make leggins and coats out of are real hard to come by in
>Texas.
>: I'm working on getting some that are that large this season but
>there is
>no
>:  sure thing. I was just wondering if anyone has any knowledge of how
>the
>: commercial stuff works for clothing.
>:  Pendleton
>: P.S.
>: A buddy of mine is making some shooting bags out of it that are real
>nice.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle
Date: 31 Aug 1998 02:16:31 -0400

James drop me a note off line and tell me what you want I might be able
to help you out---just finishing up a H.E. Leman half stock restoration
job.  can send you some pictures of it if you like---the only flint Leman
I have seen is in dillen's book and talked about in the kindig book.
Henry leman learned his trade from Malcomb Fordney in 1830  re:pg 25
kindig  worked in lancaster pa-- made a lot of guns but all full stocks
differ from the fordney lines except the one in dillen's book.  what are
you looking for--one similar to fordney or a full stock trade type gun
except with a flint lock---you can also give me a call any time and we
will talk about it.

If I cant make it I can send you to a couple of people that are reputable
and won't get to you.   remember a custom or a semi custom wont come
cheep.  I do all of my work by hand except for a bandsaw to cut the wood
and a router to cut the barrel channel.  I use no precarves and finish
them the same as the originals to include the staining---use no modern
spray finishes--all hand rubbed and hand applied---takes me about 150 hrs
of labor minimum and closer to 200---Don steith has a precarve and so
does pecatonica river --have seen them and their quality is good but have
never tried to put one of their precarves together---would cut down on
the labor hrs.  I get most of my wood from freddy harrison in
Tennisee---remember good wood dont come cheep and neither does barrels
and locks---you are looking at about $600 outlay before you start if you
want a truly quality gun--REMEMBER WOOD MAKES A GUN BUT THE BARREL IS
WHAT MAKES IT SHOOT. AND THE LOCK IS WHAT MAKES IT DEPENDABLE.

I normally put in silver toutch hole liners and usually furnish an extra
with the gun but have put in steel ones for some people who asked for it.
 GIVE ME A CALL AND WE CAN TALK---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:56:52 -0400 "James C. Zeigler"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hello:
>       I was wondering if anyone knows of a semi-custom maker
>
> of a H.E. Leman rife? I was thinking about getting a full-
>
> stock flinter.....Thanks in advance, Jim Z.
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Flying Cloud <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Madison Grant Books
Date: 31 Aug 1998 08:42:18 -0700

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> A book dealer named Jim Hayden was at the Rocky Mountain Natioanl Rendezvous
> last month. He had all of grants books at the usual proces (around $35.00 ea)
> He's from Oregon, will look for his card in my chest tonight.
>
> Todd Glover


Goodmornig All

    Jim Hayden lives in Springfield, Or and his Phone number is

        541-746-1819


--


Jim Ellison,  http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas H. Harbold" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 1750s-1770s Firearms (long rifles)
Date: 31 Aug 1998 11:04:27 -0400

Apologies for multiple/cross-postings, and/or out-of-period...

1)  Can anyone provide suggestions for an appropriate long-arm for a 1750s
(F&I) militiaman/Provincial ranger and post-war longhunter in the
backcountry of Maryland, Virginia, and Pennsylvania? Since this persona
will also serve in the AWI, again most likely in a ranger/rifleman/militia
unit, it'd be best if it was a weapon which he could plausibly retain
through the 1770s, as well.

2)  Can anyone provide suggestions for a relatively economical source for
such a weapon, either new or good-condition used?

I would greatly appreciate any assistance in this regard, since (as some of
you know) I'm just starting out, and am handicapped by rather limited
financial resources. Many thanks, and again many apologies to those who
receive multiple copies of this post.

Yrs most humbly,

Thomas



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: RIT dye remover experiment-results
Date: 31 Aug 1998 14:44:23 EDT

I experimented with the RIT dye remover over the weekend.  At first I bought
one box and tryed it on one hide in the washer with the setting on low water.
It took all of the yellow/orange out of the hide, but didn't lighten it very
much.  I then went and bought four packages and put them all in the washer
with the water set on high.  I added about 8 hides and ran it through the
adgitate cycle 4 or 5 times.  Within the first 15 minutes it had taken nearly
all of the color out of them!  I think I might of had the RIT just a little
too strong.  They looked gray in the washing machine.  Luckily when I dryed
them they turned a nice light cream color.  All in all I am happy with the
results.  I just dryed them in the dryer on high through about 3 cycles and
then I stretched them by hand.   They are just as soft as when they went in.
I had one hide that came out kind of splochy and hopefully can be saved by
running it through another RIT bath.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Wallenpaupac Rendezvous
Date: 31 Aug 1998 12:03:43 -0400

Does anyone out there know anything about a rondy being put on by the Garden
State Reenactors Sept. 26-27 at Fort Wallenpaupac PA?


Kirk Mill



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RIT dye remover experiment-results
Date: 31 Aug 1998 14:36:42 -0600 (CST)

I assume that these were commercial tanned deer hides.
HBC

>I experimented with the RIT dye remover over the weekend.  At first I bought
>one box and tryed it on one hide in the washer with the setting on low water.
>It took all of the yellow/orange out of the hide, but didn't lighten it very
>much.  I then went and bought four packages and put them all in the washer
>with the water set on high.  I added about 8 hides and ran it through the
>adgitate cycle 4 or 5 times.  Within the first 15 minutes it had taken nearly
>all of the color out of them!  I think I might of had the RIT just a little
>too strong.  They looked gray in the washing machine.  Luckily when I dryed
>them they turned a nice light cream color.  All in all I am happy with the
>results.  I just dryed them in the dryer on high through about 3 cycles and
>then I stretched them by hand.   They are just as soft as when they went in.
>I had one hide that came out kind of splochy and hopefully can be saved by
>running it through another RIT bath.

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: commercial brain tan
Date: 01 Sep 1998 09:51:13 -0400


--------------FD7D3E9AB5389106977EF70D
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The smoke smell dissipates with time.   But it is the look that really
makes brian tan stand out.   I do all be bead and quill work on brain
tan.  Still do some on commercial for the person who not so discerning
on materials.  I LOVE the smell of the smoky tan in the morning or
night.  Now I want to go camping.   Anything good going on the the south
east?????

Linda Holley

JON P TOWNS wrote:

> Well two years ago my wife and I purchased some Tandy Brain Tan and it
> worked real well Karen is offended with the smoke of the Hand done
> stuff.  She has so far sewn on over 4000 beads and it sews like hand
> done stuff. It was about 3.90 a square yard better then 10.00 hope
> this will help.
>
> ----------
> : From: yellow rose/pendleton <[e-mail]>
> : To: [e-mail]
> : Subject: MtMan-List: commrecial brain tan
> : Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 3:03 PM
> :
> : Has anybody had any first hand experience with commercial brain tan?
> I know
> : there is no substitute for the real thing, but deer hides that are
> large
> : enough to make leggins and coats out of are real hard to come by in
> Texas.
> : I'm working on getting some that are that large this season but
> there is no
> :  sure thing. I was just wondering if anyone has any knowledge of how
> the
> : commercial stuff works for clothing.
> :  Pendleton
> : P.S.
> : A buddy of mine is making some shooting bags out of it that are real
> nice.
> :



--------------FD7D3E9AB5389106977EF70D
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
The smoke smell dissipates with time.   But it is the look that
really makes brian tan stand out.   I do all be bead and quill
work on brain tan.  Still do some on commercial for the person who
not so discerning on materials.  I LOVE the smell of the smoky tan
in the morning or night.  Now I want to go camping.   Anything
good going on the the south east?????

<P>Linda Holley

<P>JON P TOWNS wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Well
two years ago my wife and I purchased some Tandy Brain Tan and it worked
real well Karen is offended with the smoke of the Hand done stuff.
She has so far sewn on over 4000 beads and it sews like hand done stuff.
It was about 3.90 a square yard better then 10.00 hope this will help.</FONT></FONT></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>----------</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><FONT COLOR="#000000">: From: yellow
rose/pendleton <</FONT><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">[e-mail]</FONT></U><FONT COLOR="#000000">></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><FONT COLOR="#000000">: To: </FONT><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">[e-mail]</FONT></U></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>: Subject: MtMan-List:
commrecial brain tan</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>: Date: Sunday,
August 30, 1998 3:03 PM</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>:</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>: Has anybody
had any first hand experience with commercial brain tan? I know</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>: there is no
substitute for the real thing, but deer hides that are large</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>: enough to
make leggins and coats out of are real hard to come by in Texas.</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>: I'm working
on getting some that are that large this season but there is no</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>:  sure
thing. I was just wondering if anyone has any knowledge of how the</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>: commercial
stuff works for clothing.</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>:  Pendleton</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>: P.S.</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>: A buddy of
mine is making some shooting bags out of it that are real nice.</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>:</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>

</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------FD7D3E9AB5389106977EF70D--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle
Date: 31 Aug 1998 23:09:27 -0700

If you would be so kind as to more fully describe the two books (dillen &
kindig) you reference it would sure help me research for the firearm I'm
intending to build/buy.
Thanks !

Tom

([e-mail])



Michael Pierce wrote:

> James drop me a note off line and tell me what you want I might be able
> to help you out---just finishing up a H.E. Leman half stock restoration
> job.  can send you some pictures of it if you like---the only flint Leman
> I have seen is in dillen's book and talked about in the kindig book.
> Henry leman learned his trade from Malcomb Fordney in 1830  re:pg 25
> kindig  worked in lancaster pa-- made a lot of guns but all full stocks
> differ from the fordney lines except the one in dillen's book.  what are
> you looking for--one similar to fordney or a full stock trade type gun
> except with a flint lock---you can also give me a call any time and we
> will talk about it.
>
> If I cant make it I can send you to a couple of people that are reputable
> and won't get to you.   remember a custom or a semi custom wont come
> cheep.  I do all of my work by hand except for a bandsaw to cut the wood
> and a router to cut the barrel channel.  I use no precarves and finish
> them the same as the originals to include the staining---use no modern
> spray finishes--all hand rubbed and hand applied---takes me about 150 hrs
> of labor minimum and closer to 200---Don steith has a precarve and so
> does pecatonica river --have seen them and their quality is good but have
> never tried to put one of their precarves together---would cut down on
> the labor hrs.  I get most of my wood from freddy harrison in
> Tennisee---remember good wood dont come cheep and neither does barrels
> and locks---you are looking at about $600 outlay before you start if you
> want a truly quality gun--REMEMBER WOOD MAKES A GUN BUT THE BARREL IS
> WHAT MAKES IT SHOOT. AND THE LOCK IS WHAT MAKES IT DEPENDABLE.
>
> I normally put in silver toutch hole liners and usually furnish an extra
> with the gun but have put in steel ones for some people who asked for it.
>  GIVE ME A CALL AND WE CAN TALK---
>
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:56:52 -0400 "James C. Zeigler"
> <[e-mail]> writes:
> >Hello:
> >       I was wondering if anyone knows of a semi-custom maker
> >
> > of a H.E. Leman rife? I was thinking about getting a full-
> >
> > stock flinter.....Thanks in advance, Jim Z.
> >
> >
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: RIT dye remover experiment-results
Date: 31 Aug 1998 19:00:36 EDT

Yes they were commercially tanned deer hides that were the icky yellowish
orange color.  They now have a nice natural cream tan color.  Much better.

Grant