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Internet Message Format | 1998-06-30 | 646KB

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tobacco
Date: 31 May 1998 23:01:54 -0700

There is a plant whose common name is Tobacco brush and grows in the
Sierra Nevada Mountains and I assume throughout the intermountain west.
I resembles common Manzanita but the branches are not red and the leaves
are oval as opposed to manzanita which has round leaves.  You should be
able to find a reference to it in a book called Shrubs of the Great
Basin. I cannot recall the family name of the plant but it is in the
same family as Manzanita.  I have never smoked it and I doubt if it can
be palatably smoked as anything but an extender to a diminishing supply
of tobacco.  It could be rolled in corn husks (Hojas) but I imagine it
would mostly be smoked in a pipe.  If you want a tobacco alternative a
company called Native Spirit has a blend of Willow bark, Yerba Buena and
other stuff which you might be able to pick up at a tobbaco store.



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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: more sign language
Date: 01 Jun 1998 01:59:16 EDT

     As far as I know I am one of the few to learn Indian Sign Language (ISL)
before learning American Sign Language (ASL).  I learned ISL in the Scouting
program and have been taking a class in ASL for a few years for business
purposes. (I have occasional hearing-impared customers.)

     I have found only a few signs that are the same in both.  These include
love, winter, and the obvious ones such as I, you, they.  Some signs are
similar but have different meanings.  For example the ISL for white man is
made with the fore finger moving across the forehead (originally showing the
white man's hat).  This same sign in ASL means "black" (originally tracing the
black eyebrow).   Another interesting sign in ISL for "many times" or "often"
is the forefinger touching the left arm and moving up.  Almost the identical
sign in ASL means "improving."  With ASL facial expressions are an integral
part of the language.  ISL was less dependent on facial expressions.

     I agree that French sign language is closer to ASL than is British Sign
Language (BSL).  Finger spelling in ASL is done with one hand, in BSL you have
to use both hands.  Interesting enough I found that Irish Sign Language is
different from British Sign Language.

     As for ISL differing between tribes, I think the differences were only
minor.  The whole purpose of ISL was to communicate when different tribes met
and according to Tompkins' book it was almost universal from the Hudson Bay to
the Gulf of Mexico.

     W.P Clark's book The Indian Sign Language was originally published about
1885 and is probably the most authentic.  It has more words than Tompkins'
book, including some "adult" words that Tompkins book does not include (the
Boy Scouts found these in a hurry), but unfortunately does not include any
illustrations.  For this reason, Tompkins' book is preferable for first
learning the language.   Clark apparently also knew what he termed as "deaf-
mute language" (this was before ASL) as he often compares the ISL word with
the way the "deaf mutes" (I know the term is not used anymore) say the same
word.

     I am still disappointed at how few Native Americans I have found that
know ISL.  As one Native American at a Powwow at Rapid City, South Dakota said
to me, "I know this sign  --- 'how'  ---- I learned it from a John Wayne
movie."   Traditions such as costuming, Indian dance, etc. are kept up but
Indian Sign has been neglected.

     Respectfully,

     Tom Orr



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From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 01 Jun 1998 07:24:09 -0600

Gail,

I smoke kinnikinnick somewhat regularly and really enjoy it. But I do not
mix it with tobacco, which is one substance my body has never learned to
tolerate. I like to gather my own here in the Shining Mtns in the spring
when they start to come out of plant hibernation. I use the dried, crumbled
leaves in a somewhat sparse proportion with other herbs. The red berries are
nice also. I dry them and remove the seeds, as they are large compared to
the berry part and can be a bit harsh. One of my favorite mixtures is with
red willow bark, angelica root and mullein leaves in about equal proprotions
with a smaller amount of kinnikinnick.

I can't give exact amounts as I just make a pile of each and mix together
until it looks about right. There was an article in the November/December
1995 issue of Backwoodsman Magazine called 'Native American Smoking Mixes'
that discussed several other herbs, as well.

As with all plants, etc gathered in the wild, be careful of poisons,
allergens,etc. Try small amounts at first.

Hope this helps.

Red Coyote


> ----------
> From:     Gail Carbiener
> Reply To:     [e-mail]
> Sent:     Saturday, May 30, 1998 21:21
> To:     American Mountain Men
> Subject:     MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
>
>
> >To all:
> >    This got lost in never never land. Has any one ever tried this
> manzanita
> >with tobacco mixture?
> >Gail  (learning to play a MM in living history)
> >==============
>
>



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From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: lodges
Date: 01 Jun 1998 14:30:55 -0400

I have a question for you folks. I am trying to get started in
buckskinning and am assembling my outfit. My question is in regard to
appropriate lodges. I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would
be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that
I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think?



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From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows
Date: 01 Jun 1998 18:52:13 -0500

Thanks for the input on your group. Like I said before, there are those who
can use one at a greater distance than I ever could. ( we all have our
limitations) I happen to like the blowguns like the Cherokee use. I have a
shorter one that I purchased at Qualla Boundry in North Carolina. Use
hardwood darts with thistle down for the fluff. They are great on rabbits
and birds. Yes, if I am hungry I will eat most any bird I can hit! In the
middle ages they ate hawks and other non-game birds. NO, I don't shoot
hawks. But sparrows, doves, quail, and such are not hard to hit at a
watering hole. Maybe some of the folks on the list would like to do a 3 or
7 day run sometime and learn how to use these kind of tools and techniques.
Contact me off line if you might be interested. NO modern tools will be
allowed however! For comfort, you can have a canteen, blanket, and a small
bag with medications, tooth brush, etc. NO you won't need a razor, because
where I will take you, you won't be seeing any women!
YellowFeather

----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows
> Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 11:07 AM
>
> In a message dated 98-05-30 10:23:35 EDT, you write:
>
> << [e-mail] (Glenn Darilek) >>
> not an amaseing feet with practace you can stand on your hands if you
have
> ever shot a gun or bow 25yds is not so bad your right about being
acurate. i
> yas once good with my sling shot not as good as my fiend who could smash
a
> marble with another at not 25yds butt far as in more than 15 paces. as
for
> force the extention fo a lever  your arm and another the atlatl you had
more
> force it must have been like landing on the moon when you could take game
down
> with less trama to you and the game let alone the time it took and the
more
> you could gather. it was ysed on the ice cap in our time. or may i say
your
> dads time. they were pritty acurate. i belong to a club that makes our
own
> alute skin boats and part of our lor is to use the atlatl. some of these
guys
> are pretty good . as  good  to kill game at 25yds +we are not talking
more
> than 50. and there was more game then  less spooky.
>
>                                                                      iron
> toung



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From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re Men of the Cloth
Date: 01 Jun 1998 19:26:06 -0600

It took a long time for formal religion to reach the Canadian Rockies. The
first priest or minister in the Canadian Rockes was, I believe, Rev. Robert
Terrill Rundle, a Methodist who conducted a service at Rocky Mountain House
in the mid-1840's. A prominent mountain near Banff is named after him. He
and his Catholic counterpart, Father Lacombe, operated out of Edmonton
House. Lacombe arrived a few years after Rundle, but spent the rest of his
life at his mission; Rundle returned to England in 1848.

Catholic priests travelled as far west as Fort Dauphin, Manitoba before
1800, and accompanied voyageurs west of the Great Lakes quite intermittently
thereafter. It took decades, however, for them to get further than Manitoba.
Father Pierre Antoine Tabeau travelled to Rainy Lake & back in the summer of
1816. In 1818, Father (later Bishop) Joseph Norbert Provencher and Father
Severe Dumoulin arrived at Red River (Winnipeg). Father Dumoulin travelled
to Norway House, where he conducted a service on Aug 6, 1820. By 1823-1824,
there were both Catholic and Anglican priests living at Red River. Some of
the Protestants had a devastating impact on fur trade families; they refused
to acknowledge marriages which had been established before their arrival.The
Catholics were more pragmatic, and happily formalized existing unions.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]



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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Palouse River Regional Rendezvous (NE Washington)
Date: 01 Jun 1998 18:43:22 -0700 (PDT)

Palouse River Regional Rendezvous

When:  June 26-28

Where:  Washington, North of Colfax (map on registration form)

Details:  All sorts of shoots and things to keep ya busy!  Come join us
for a weekend of of muzzleloading and oldtime fun!

For More Info contact Whitey Eagen [phone], Carl Schluneger
(509)-397-4956, or Tony Roberts [phone]



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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Plant Lore Class in N. Idaho
Date: 01 Jun 1998 19:11:02 -0700 (PDT)

The Univ. of Idaho presents a field course in ethnobotany, the study of
plant lore, on June 7 at the Clark Fork Field Campus.

The course offers a hands-on exploration of the folklore of native plants
and their traditional uses as medicine, food and fiber.  The course will
be taught by Steve Brunsfeld, associate professor in the Dept of Forest
Resources, and by independent consultant Richard Old.

Check in is from 8:30 to 9 a.m., followed immediately by an hour-long
introduction.  The field excursion by car caravan begins at 10 a.m. and
includes identification of plants in a variety of habitats and discussion
of their uses.

Registration is $19.  Overnight lodgin at the field campus is $10.70 per
night, per person (there is also a very nice Natl Forest campground just
down the road, at the site of the Northwest Company's Kullyspell House for
about $5 a campsite/night).  Participants are asked to bring sturdy
walking shoes, a sack lunch, beverages and a hand lens.  No Pets.

For Registration and reservations, write to Edie Kinucan, Clark Fork Field
Campus, Box 87, Clark Fork, Idaho, 83811, or call 'em at 208-266-1452.

Newbill's note... these are super classes for the serious buckskinner if
you're in the area. I'll be missing this one cause I'm working on a
Rendezvous preparation.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html



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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: MtMan-List: lodges
Date: 01 Jun 1998 21:37:03 EDT

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canvas that  is  white would fit the era better. i do not think a  green one
would go over to good . a small wedge tent would be better.
                                             traphand

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I have a question for you folks. I am trying to get started in
buckskinning and am assembling my outfit. My question is in regard to
appropriate lodges. I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would
be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that
I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think?


--part0_896751424_boundary--



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From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lodges
Date: 01 Jun 1998 05:50:19 -0700

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Your green wall tent will go real good next to someone's camper trailer in
the tin Tipi camp.  I am sure that they must have the same kind of doin's
where your from like is held in Washington.  Go camp in the non primitive
area for a while and get a feel to see if you like it first then pour the
money into it.  Buckskinning is a form of the pit.  You might not like the
drunks and etc.  But if you like to drink and party I am sure its like all
over get down and dirty.  Pick a rondy and find if they have a non
primitive area to camp and go.  For God sakes and try it first, before you
spend a lot of money.  Later Jon T

----------
: From: Mill, Kirk <[e-mail]>
: To: ML MAILING LIST <[e-mail]>
: Cc: history mailing list <[e-mail]>
: Subject: MtMan-List: lodges
: Date: Monday, June 01, 1998 11:30 AM
:
: I have a question for you folks. I am trying to get started in
: buckskinning and am assembling my outfit. My question is in regard to
: appropriate lodges. I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would
: be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that
: I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think?
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Your green wall tent will go real good =
next to someone's camper trailer in the tin Tipi camp.  I am sure =
that they must have the same kind of doin's where your from like is held =
in Washington.  Go camp in the non primitive area for a while and =
get a feel to see if you like it first then pour the money into it. =
 Buckskinning is a form of the pit.  You might not like the =
drunks and etc.  But if you like to drink and party I am sure its =
like all over get down and dirty.  Pick a rondy and find if they =
have a non primitive area to camp and go.  For God sakes and try it =
first, before you spend a lot of money.  Later Jon T =
 <br><br>----------<br>: From: Mill, Kirk <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: ML MAILING LIST <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000">><br>: =
Cc: history mailing list <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: Subject: MtMan-List: lodges<br>: Date: =
Monday, June 01, 1998 11:30 AM<br>: <br>: I have a question for you =
folks. I am trying to get started in<br>: buckskinning and am assembling =
my outfit. My question is in regard to<br>: appropriate lodges. I have =
an old canvas wall tent that I believe would<br>: be period correct =
except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that<br>: I have seen =
shows white lodges only. What do you think?</p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison Ivy
Date: 02 Jun 1998 10:20:52 EDT

In a message dated 98-05-23 14:44:31 EDT, you write:

<<  I don't know
 if an immunity can be built up, but it affects me only mildly today.
  >>
I never got it until I was in my late 30's, used to pick it and chase my
sister and all that.  Now I am extremely careful around it as I get it easily
now.  I talked to a dermatologist (sp) and was told that the medical folks
claim that the more often you come in contact with ivy or poison oak the more
likely you are to break out and that everytime you break out you body develops
more histamines (sp) faster to react to it so you break out worse and faster
each time from then on.  Last summer my wife and kids all got severe cases
requiring shots and pills.  My wife got it on her upper thighs when she went
to the hooter as the hem of her skirt had dragged in it and when she lifted
her skirt to go to the bathroom it passed the oil to her legs.

There are several commercial "blocks" that you can apply prior to contact that
really do work.  Even Avon dealers now carry them.  You put them on like a sun
screen accept they prevent the oils from the ivy from bonding to your skin so
you have time to wash it off.  When you wash, either with good old fels napta
or one of the new ivy cleansers wash with COLD water not hot.  Hot water opens
the pores and the reaction is worse.  One thing you can also use is Jewel Weed
to clean up in a pinch.  Jewel Weed likes the same growing conditions as Ivy
and is often found near by.  It has a stem and leaf structure that is really
juicy that when crushed acts like a soap and does clean off the ivy before it
bonds to the skin.

The best way to avoid it is to learn to spot it before you are in it.  Out
here in the northeast it can be short ground cover or like the vine we saw at
Ft Frederic that was about 6" in diameter and went at least 40' up and around
a tree.    Just got back from a 10 day event (The Original North Eastern) in
North Eastern Conn., and every transistion area from trail to woods, river to
woods or field to woods was full of beautiful lush ivy so if you come to the
NE and plan to walk into the woods be careful (we were) or you will itch a
lot.

By the way the Original North Eastern was once again wonderful, far more
activities than you could possible do, good weather and wonderful friends both
new and old. 750+ registered adults (16 years or older) and 10 days to get to
meet them all. It will be in Conn. again next year on the west bank of the
lake formed by the Thompson Lake Dam, hope to see you there over Memorial Day
week next year.
Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes



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From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lodges
Date: 02 Jun 1998 08:31:01 -0700

Kirk;
You got some good answers to your question and you should concider taking
that advise but I will offer another idea. You didn't say what you would use
your shelter for and if it is just for you, you might do what I just did for
my newest lonsome shelter.

I went to Eagle Hardware and bought one of their 9' by 12' painters drop
cloths for $20 and ran it through the wash to shrink and tighten it up. I
then water proofed it with a comercial waterproofing agent and installed
gromets in the corners and along the edge. It will make a fine shelter and
can be set up in a couple of ways depending on the conditions. Niceset thing
about it is that it is a nice light natural tan color like linen which it
may be since it was made in India. I think there are bigger drop cloths
available that could be turned into somewhat bigger shelters if needed and a
couple of these dropcloths could be turned into a nice wedge tent with very
little cuting and sewing.

I too started out years ago with an old army wall tent in OD green. It had
to be set up in the tin-teepee camp that first year but it gave me some time
to decide if I really wanted to make the investment in a lodge or era
correct tent. I did and the next year I had a lodge.

I hope this was helpfull.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

Mill, Kirk wrote:

> I have a question for you folks. I am trying to get started in
> buckskinning and am assembling my outfit. My question is in regard to
> appropriate lodges. I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would
> be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that
> I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lodges
Date: 02 Jun 1998 12:12:35 -0600 (CST)

> . . . I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would
>be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that
>I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think?

Kirk,
One solution, if the tent is not too big, is you can soak it in a mixture
of chlorine bleech and water in a LARGE vat of some kind to fade the green.
I did it with a green duffel bag and it came out kind of a sandy tan.  It
would take something the size of a large steel livestock water trough to
soak it.

Second solution is to sell the tent and apply the proceeds (however little)
toward an affordable period tent.  Keep the poles if you can, because
you'll just have to buy more.  Poles are usually sold sepatately from
tents.  The best prices I've seen on tents are from Panther Primitives
(they also offer poles, btw, but your local lumber yard could have a better
deal).

I hope this helps, and it might be a better answer for you than camping
among the alcoas.  Sorry, but you really can't get a full rondy experience
by camping among motor homes.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



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From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of the Cloth
Date: 02 Jun 1998 12:40:16 -0600

I mentioned that Protestant and Catholic missionaries were strikingly
different in their attitudes. Here is what Sylvia Van Kirk has to say about
another man of the cloth, whom I missed in my original message:

"[Fort Vancouver's] first clergyman, the Reverend Herbert Beaver, was
totally unsympathetic to the fur-trade custom [of marriage according to
Native tradition], in spite of his appropriate name. Arriving in the fall of
1836 with his English wife, Jane, he denounced Fort Vancouver as a
'deplorable scene of vice and ignorance'. He refused to give any credence to
'the custom of the country', styling the traders' wives as concubines and
chastising the men for indulging in fornication. This...understandably
outraged fiery tempered Chief Factor John McLoughlin... To Beaver, good Mrs.
McLoughlin was only a 'kept Mistress' who could not be allowed to associate
with properly married females such as his own wife." (p154-155)

In 1838, after Beaver left Ft. Vancouver, two Catholic priests, Francois N.
Banchet and Modeste Demers arrived, via Fort Edmonton. Their attitude toward
'country marriages' was markedly different; their marriage ceremonies were
intended to 'renew & ratify' these existing marriages, and for the couple to
formally recognize the legitimacy of their children.

For more information on the early Canadian men of the cloth, and the fur
trade, I strongly recommend :
Van Kirk, Sylvia. _Many Tender Ties : Women in Fur-Trade Society,
1670-1870_. Watson & Dwyer : Winnipeg, 1980. ISBN 0-920486-06-1

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]



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From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 02 Jun 1998 13:18:05 -0700

Louis:
    Do you crush the mixture to a fine small parts.. You probably dry the
berries in the sun. Sounds like the mixture might smoke pretty hot. Can you
describe the taste. I will need to look up the other two items, angelica
root and mullein. Thanks for the info.
Gail
Living History MtMan
=================

>I smoke kinnikinnick somewhat regularly and really enjoy it. But I do not
>mix it with tobacco, which is one substance my body has never learned to
>tolerate. I like to gather my own here in the Shining Mtns in the spring
>when they start to come out of plant hibernation. I use the dried, crumbled
>leaves in a somewhat sparse proportion with other herbs. The red berries
are
>nice also. I dry them and remove the seeds, as they are large compared to
>the berry part and can be a bit harsh. One of my favorite mixtures is with
>red willow bark, angelica root and mullein leaves in about equal
proprotions
>with a smaller amount of kinnikinnick.
>
>
>Red Coyote
>
>



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From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Plant Lore Class in N. Idaho
Date: 02 Jun 1998 13:07:45 -0700

Lee:
    This sounds great, do you suppose they might touch on the manazinta
tobacco plant? Although I am not a smoker, it is peaked my curiosity on what
it would taste like. (I used to be a smoker, didn't everyone)
    I will be walking the Oregon Trail on the Boardman Bombing Range outside
of Hermiston. Also will be walking out of the Blue Mountains down the way
Marcus Whitman traveled. A group of us are preparing for the
Oregon/California Trails Association convention to be held in Pendleton, OR
the second week of August.
    Appreciate the information, and hope if other classes such as this come
to your attention you will post.
Gail
Living History MtMan


-----Original Message-----
<[e-mail]>


>The Univ. of Idaho presents a field course in ethnobotany, the study of
>plant lore, on June 7 at the Clark Fork Field Campus.
>
>The course offers a hands-on exploration of the folklore of native plants
>and their traditional uses as medicine, food and fiber.  The course will
>be taught by Steve Brunsfeld, associate professor in the Dept of Forest
>Resources, and by independent consultant Richard Old.
>
>Check in is from 8:30 to 9 a.m., followed immediately by an hour-long
>introduction.  The field excursion by car caravan begins at 10 a.m. and
>includes identification of plants in a variety of habitats and discussion
>of their uses.
>
>Registration is $19.  Overnight lodgin at the field campus is $10.70 per
>night, per person (there is also a very nice Natl Forest campground just
>down the road, at the site of the Northwest Company's Kullyspell House for
>about $5 a campsite/night).  Participants are asked to bring sturdy
>walking shoes, a sack lunch, beverages and a hand lens.  No Pets.
>
>For Registration and reservations, write to Edie Kinucan, Clark Fork Field

>Campus, Box 87, Clark Fork, Idaho, 83811, or call 'em at 208-266-1452.
>
>Newbill's note... these are super classes for the serious buckskinner if
>you're in the area. I'll be missing this one cause I'm working on a
>Rendezvous preparation.
>
>Regards
>
>Lee Newbill
>Viola, Idaho
>email at [e-mail]
>Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
>http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: alum
Date: 02 Jun 1998 16:19:05 -0400

Okay, here's another question. Does anybody know a good source for =
Alum?
I used to be able to get it in 1 pound containers at the drug store, =
but
now they only sell it in 4 ounce size ( at 2.00 per 4 oz.). For the
batch of hides that I've got going now, I've had to go to 4 different
stores just to buy 1 =BD pounds. Any ideas?=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of the Cloth
Date: 02 Jun 1998 16:32:45 -0500

I found this rather interesting, as the tradition of ignorance continues
today. The state and the church still do not recognize traditional Indian
marriage. At least this has been my wife's and my experience. My Pam and I
were married by a Cherokee medicine woman in 1972 if my memory is correct.
No license, no nothing except for a mutual love and attraction. The
ceremony was quite beautiful and we both remember it in detail all these
years since. Had I the misfortune to meet Rev. Herbert Beaver and he were
to call my Pam a concubine, I would in all probability have shot him
between the lights! We had a church ceremony 10 years later so that "uncle"
would have his piece of paper and the US Army would "accept" our marriage.
Now, 26 years later, I understand even more how the fur traders and
mountain men must have felt. Any society that has to depend on paper
instead of a mans word is worth getting away from!
YMOS,
Ken YellowFeather
and his devoted wife Pamela "Calamity" Jane Wheeler
----------
> From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of the Cloth
> Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 1:40 PM
>
> I mentioned that Protestant and Catholic missionaries were strikingly
> different in their attitudes. Here is what Sylvia Van Kirk has to say
about
> another man of the cloth, whom I missed in my original message:
>
> "[Fort Vancouver's] first clergyman, the Reverend Herbert Beaver, was
> totally unsympathetic to the fur-trade custom [of marriage according to
> Native tradition], in spite of his appropriate name. Arriving in the fall
of
> 1836 with his English wife, Jane, he denounced Fort Vancouver as a
> 'deplorable scene of vice and ignorance'. He refused to give any credence
to
> 'the custom of the country', styling the traders' wives as concubines and

> chastising the men for indulging in fornication. This...understandably
> outraged fiery tempered Chief Factor John McLoughlin... To Beaver, good
Mrs.
> McLoughlin was only a 'kept Mistress' who could not be allowed to
associate
> with properly married females such as his own wife." (p154-155)
>
> In 1838, after Beaver left Ft. Vancouver, two Catholic priests, Francois
N.
> Banchet and Modeste Demers arrived, via Fort Edmonton. Their attitude
toward
> 'country marriages' was markedly different; their marriage ceremonies
were
> intended to 'renew & ratify' these existing marriages, and for the couple
to
> formally recognize the legitimacy of their children.
>
> For more information on the early Canadian men of the cloth, and the fur
> trade, I strongly recommend :
> Van Kirk, Sylvia. _Many Tender Ties : Women in Fur-Trade Society,
> 1670-1870_. Watson & Dwyer : Winnipeg, 1980. ISBN 0-920486-06-1
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
> [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum
Date: 02 Jun 1998 16:39:59 -0500

Ask the pharmacist to order you a larger quantity or you might check in t=
he
canning section of your local grocery store. You might also check with yo=
ur
local farm store. ( Southern States Co-op ) Check to see if you have an
American Scientific store nearby or a similar store, as they sell chemica=
ls
in bulk. Hope this helps.
YellowFeather

----------
Cc: history mailing list <[e-mail]>

Okay, here's another question. Does anybody know a good source for Alum?
I used to be able to get it in 1 pound containers at the drug store, but
now they only sell it in 4 ounce size ( at 2.00 per 4 oz.). For the
batch of hides that I've got going now, I've had to go to 4 different
stores just to buy 1 =BD pounds. Any ideas?=20
----------



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 02 Jun 1998 17:03:45 -0500

Mullen leaves are fantastic! Not only do they make great toilet paper
substitute but when properly dried they smoke as smooth as silk. At one
time they were used for people with TB to smoke. The smoke coats the
bronchial passages and deaden the sensitivity of the lungs. It helped to
reduce the coughing spasms. I have added it to my pipe tobacco for years.
YMOS,
YellowFeather
----------
> From: Gail Carbiener <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
> Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 3:18 PM
>
> Louis:
>     Do you crush the mixture to a fine small parts.. You probably dry the
> berries in the sun. Sounds like the mixture might smoke pretty hot. Can
you
> describe the taste. I will need to look up the other two items, angelica
> root and mullein. Thanks for the info.
> Gail
> Living History MtMan
> =================
>
> >I smoke kinnikinnick somewhat regularly and really enjoy it. But I do
not
> >mix it with tobacco, which is one substance my body has never learned to
> >tolerate. I like to gather my own here in the Shining Mtns in the spring
> >when they start to come out of plant hibernation. I use the dried,
crumbled
> >leaves in a somewhat sparse proportion with other herbs. The red berries
> are
> >nice also. I dry them and remove the seeds, as they are large compared
to
> >the berry part and can be a bit harsh. One of my favorite mixtures is
with
> >red willow bark, angelica root and mullein leaves in about equal
> proprotions
> >with a smaller amount of kinnikinnick.
> >
> >
> >Red Coyote
> >
> >



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum
Date: 02 Jun 1998 18:32:19 EDT

Kirk Mill asked: "Okay, here's another question. Does anybody know a good
source for Alum?...."

I have bought it at Tandy. They sell it for tanning. I've also seen it in
taxidermy supply catalogs.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tanning
Date: 02 Jun 1998 16:34:11 -0600

In Laubins Tipi book, they state that a modern substitute for brains, used
in tanning hides, is Lard mixed with flour, the flour is used to float the
lard.

Has anyone tried this?
Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides?
While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good
enough substitute, without the mess.

Thanks in advance!
Ron


Ron's Idaho Pages
<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/>
Email <[e-mail]>

     \|/
     / \
   /     \
 /    0   \ Lonewolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (PHIL PETERSEN)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum
Date: 02 Jun 1998 22:59:38 GMT

You may be sorry.  That alum tan is prett rough.  Contact Longtrail for the
"easy" way to do your tanning.

Phil>Okay, here's another question. Does anybody know a good source for=
 Alum?
>I used to be able to get it in 1 pound containers at the drug store, but
>now they only sell it in 4 ounce size ( at 2.00 per 4 oz.). For the
>batch of hides that I've got going now, I've had to go to 4 different
>stores just to buy 1 =BD pounds. Any ideas?=20
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: lodges..
Date: 02 Jun 1998 15:11:10 +0000

I agree about going and see one first, but don't worry too much about
partying drunks.  There are always some there and I have been one once in a
while.  Usually they don't bother anyone and, there aren't as many as there
used to be and they don't last as  long.  Old age?  Look at all kinds of
setups, trader's wares and go ahead and ask questions.  99.9% of the
people there are friendly and love to answer questions.  Do some checking and
questions first and you will save a lot of money and frustrations.  Get
Muzzloader Magazine and maybe some books like the Bokks of Buxkskinning 1
thru 7 for lots of ideas.  Probably a good guess you will make some friends
the first do you go to, so you can get some help from them.  Go look but be
forewarned: you will probably get hooked.


DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS

Traphand wrote:
>canvas that  is  white would fit the era better. i do not think a  green
one
>would go over to good . a small wedge tent would be better.
>                                             traphand
>
>Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
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>Message-ID: <D131A1C9E7E3D011A6DE006097BA62D513DA8E@acusn01>
>From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
>To: ML MAILING LIST <[e-mail]>
>Cc: history mailing list <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: lodges
>Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:30:55 -0400
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>
>I have a question for you folks. I am trying to get started in
>buckskinning and am assembling my outfit. My question is in regard to
>appropriate lodges. I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would
>be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that
>I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think?
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wild Medicinal Plants Class (N. Idaho)
Date: 02 Jun 1998 17:20:04 -0700 (PDT)

On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Gail Carbiener wrote:
>     This sounds great, do you suppose they might touch on the manazinta
> tobacco plant? Although I am not a smoker, it is peaked my curiosity on what
> it would taste like. (I used to be a smoker, didn't everyone)

Wow, what a great lead in for the second class in June.  I don't know
precisely if the instructors will cover manazinta, but you can bet they
will if it's brought up by interested students :)

Anyway, on June 27-28, a class on the "Wild Medicinal Plants of North
Idaho" will be hosted by the Univ of Idaho's Clark Fork Field Campus.  The
class is a one day affair, with a class on Sat, and one on Sun.  Class
will Instruct participants on identification and use of medicinal plants
in the region.

The workshop will be presented by Barbara St. Dennis, a practicing
medicanl herbalist who emphasizes safe herbalism.

Registration is $19.  Overnight lodging at the field campus is $10.70 per
night, per person (nearby Natl Forest campground costs just $5.00/night).
Participants are asked to bring sturdy walking shoes, a sack lunch,
beverages and a hand lens.  No Pets.

For Registration and reservations, write to Edie Kinucan, Clark Fork Field
Campus, Box 87, Clark Fork, Idaho, 83811, or call 'em at 208-266-1452.

Again, these are super classes for the serious skinner, and agian, I'll
miss it cause I'll be gone ta Rendezvous.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Lewis & Clark Canoes?
Date: 02 Jun 1998 21:04:30 -0500

Hello the Camp,

While perusing my latest =93Maine Antique Digest=94 I came across the fol=
lowing
request for help.  I thought it might make an interesting topic for the
list, and we might be able to help.

Begin article transcription:_________________

=93LEWIS & CLARK CANOES
In the journals of September 27 to October 7, 1805, five canoes were hewn
from pine trees.  Do any drawings or other details exist for these crafts=
?
The Gorge Discovery Center & Wasco County Historical Museum is looking fo=
r
details in the hopes that we might replicate one or more of the vessels.
Any help would be appreciated.  Also anyone wishing knowledge of the trai=
l
in this area (The Dalles, Oregon), especially Rock Fort, please ask.
<[e-mail]>.=94

End article transcription:_______________________

I don=92t have any direct information; but, I=92m betting if anyone does
someone on this list can probably help them out.  Or perhaps know of
another list that can.

Best I can figure it would be pretty much a standard dugout canoe like ma=
ny
existing examples in museums.  Off hand I remember one good old one in
Indianapolis at the State Museum downtown, at least it was there in=9279.

I am Cc:ing them  a copy of this posting and would suggest those with inp=
ut
do the same so they can follow the discussion.  (Just hit the =93Reply to
All=94 button on this original message when you reply, and it should happ=
en
automatically).

So who knows?

John
=20




Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.=20
john [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum
Date: 02 Jun 1998 21:28:47 -0500

At 04:19 PM 6/2/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Okay, here's another question. Does anybody know a good source for Alum?
>I used to be able to get it in 1 pound containers at the drug store, but
>now they only sell it in 4 ounce size ( at 2.00 per 4 oz.). For the
>batch of hides that I've got going now, I've had to go to 4 different
>stores just to buy 1 =BD pounds. Any ideas?=20
>=20

Try calling the commercial chemical and industrial supply houses in any=
 major
city yellow pages.  Most will have a minimum purchase requirement.  Many=
 will
be as low as 5lbs cash & carry.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<=A0 -=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
http://www.kramerize.com/
mail to: john<[e-mail]>=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lodges
Date: 02 Jun 1998 21:33:52 -0500

At 08:31 AM 6/2/98 -0700, Capt. Lahti wrote:
>Kirk;
>
>I went to Eagle Hardware and bought one of their 9' by 12' painters drop
>cloths for $20 and ran it through the wash to shrink and tighten it up. I
>then water proofed it with a comercial waterproofing agent and installed
>gromets in the corners and along the edge.

I would suggest just tying small marble size stones in the corners where you
need ties.  Metal grommets are a little late for the period.  Unless brass or
iron rings are sewn in with a button hole stitch.  Sewing on lengths of cotton
webbing is another good alternative.  I've found the stones work well, are
cheap, fast and easy to re-rig.

See the list archive for extensive discussions on waterproofing cloth.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lodges
Date: 03 Jun 1998 00:37:43 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-03 00:10:33 EDT, you write:

<< I would suggest just tying small marble size stones in the corners where
you
 need ties.  Metal grommets are a little late for the period.  Unless brass or
 iron rings are sewn in with a button hole stitch.  Sewing on lengths of
cotton
 webbing is another good alternative.  I've found the stones work well, are
 cheap, fast and easy to re-rig.

 See the list archive for extensive discussions on waterproofing cloth.

 John...  >>

   .62 or better round balls worked fine for me....also picked up some large
glass marbles.

                                                          Longshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tornados and other bad weather
Date: 03 Jun 1998 08:22:31 -0500

Hello the list,

Just putting out a note to make sure that everyone on the list from
western Maryland and northeast, West Virginia and Pennsylvania made
it thru the tornados and bad storms of the past couple of days. Speak
up so we know you are still out there.


Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning
Date: 02 Jun 1998 17:34:41 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BD8E4C.B9296B40
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ron:  I have used a method called soap tan use Phelps papha soap Spelling
is wrong.  It is easy to do and you are not rushed to finish the deer hide.
 The process calls for rubbing in lard it never said anything about flour
but it smoked up good and came out real soft and white.  I done this on a
mountain with out any electric or anything.  Later Jon T

----------
: From: Ron <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: MtMan-List: Tanning
: Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 3:34 PM
:
: In Laubins Tipi book, they state that a modern substitute for brains,
used
: in tanning hides, is Lard mixed with flour, the flour is used to float
the
: lard.
:
: Has anyone tried this?
: Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides?
: While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good
: enough substitute, without the mess.
:
: Thanks in advance!
: Ron
:
:
: Ron's Idaho Pages
: <http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/>
: Email <[e-mail]>
:
:      \|/
:      / \
:    /     \
:  /    0   \ Lonewolf
------=_NextPart_000_01BD8E4C.B9296B40
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Ron:  I have used a method called =
soap tan use Phelps papha soap Spelling is wrong.  It is easy to do =
and you are not rushed to finish the deer hide.  The process calls =
for rubbing in lard it never said anything about flour but it smoked up =
good and came out real soft and white.  I done this on a mountain =
with out any electric or anything.  Later Jon T =
<br><br>----------<br>: From: Ron <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000">><br>: =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: MtMan-List: Tanning<br>: Date: Tuesday, =
June 02, 1998 3:34 PM<br>: <br>: In Laubins Tipi book, they state that a =
modern substitute for brains, used<br>: in tanning hides, is Lard mixed =
with flour, the flour is used to float the<br>: lard.<br>: <br>: Has =
anyone tried this?  <br>: Does the finished hide resemble brain =
tanned hides?<br>: While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was =
wondering if it was a good<br>: enough substitute, without the =
mess.<br>: <br>: Thanks in advance!<br>: Ron<br>: <br>: <br>: Ron's =
Idaho Pages<br>: <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: Email <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000">><br>: =
<br>:      \|/<br>: =
     / \<br>:    / =
    \<br>:  /    0   \ =
Lonewolf</p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></h=
tml>
------=_NextPart_000_01BD8E4C.B9296B40--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum
Date: 03 Jun 1998 09:25:00 EDT

For anyone interested in Alum Tanning, I would suggest contacting Kent Klein
who wrote a booklet entitled "Tan Your Hide the Alum Way." I have seen many of
Kents hides and they are superb and almost indistigushable from brain tanned.
My friend purchsed a 50 lb bag of alum at a chemical supply store.

Kent can be contacted at  [e-mail]

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 03 Jun 1998 07:30:01 -0600

Gail,

    Here in Denver, CO we have a store called Alfalfa's that carries a
LOT of natural herbs. Most of what I use comes from there and is already
fairly finely ground/crushed.
This especially applies to the angelica, mullein and sumac berries (which I
didn't mention before, sorry). I couldn't tell angelica in the forest from
hemlock - a real BAD thing (not that they are similar, but you get my
drift). It is just SAFER that way. I do gather my own red willow bark from
my favorite elk hunting beaver pond area and kinnickinnick from anywhere
west of here that I happen to be hiking. These are EASY to identify and I
feel OK using them.

But, yes, all the ingredients are fine, small parts. The kinnickinnick
berries are already pretty dry naturally, they're not like cherries or
anything. I usually just hang a whole bunch of leaves and berries as they
were gathered in my basement room for a while until all are dry.  Then break
up the leaves with my fingers while separating the berries. Like I said
before, I try to remove the seeds from the berries as much as possible, they
are large compared with the berry material and don't taste especially good.

I guess you could say it smokes rather hot, but in a clay pipe tobacco gets
pretty warm too. I use a clay pipe that was excavated from a pipe
manufacturing business in central Ohio. The pipe was from a trash area that
was dated to be in use before 1840, how lucky! I do not recall any
references to mountain men rolling their own cigarettes out of
kinnickinnick, etc. , but the references to clay pipes (and even white men
owning and using pipestone pipes) are numerous.

As for the taste, it's hard to describe, but is very nice. Once you smell
the odor of red willow bark wafting through the camp, you'll never forget
it. It's sort of like the stuff left over from the manufacture of ropes,
that we're not supposed to smoke - very distinctive. It is not harsh at all
and can be inhaled without irritation. I do not consider myself a smoker &
do not smoke this stuff a lot, but when I want the taste & odor of my last
camp out, I break out the old pipe.

Hope this helps some.

YMHOS,
Red Coyote

> ----------
> From:     Gail Carbiener
> Reply To:     [e-mail]
> Sent:     Tuesday, June 2, 1998 14:18
> To:     [e-mail]
> Subject:     Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
>
> Louis:
>     Do you crush the mixture to a fine small parts.. You probably dry the
> berries in the sun. Sounds like the mixture might smoke pretty hot. Can
> you
> describe the taste. I will need to look up the other two items, angelica
> root and mullein. Thanks for the info.
> Gail
> Living History MtMan
> =================
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Monte Holder <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 03 Jun 1998 09:19:29 -0500



Sickler, Louis L wrote:

>  I do gather my own red willow bark from
> my favorite elk hunting beaver pond area and kinnickinnick from anywhere
> west of here that I happen to be hiking. These are EASY to identify and I
> feel OK using them.
>

Is there another name for kinnickinnick that I missed somewhere along the way?
And what is its growing range?  I would assume if there are berries, there would
be seeds.  Wonder if a guy could grow some here in Missouri?
Monte Holder
Saline CO MO

BTW, I grow some tobacco here in central Missouri from time to time and smoke it
occasionally in a pipe, but it really works great for keeping hornworms off my
tomatos and they are easier to see on those great big leaves.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 03 Jun 1998 07:10:59 -0700

Ken,

You mentioned in your "tobacco" note that "when dried
properly".......mullen smokes "smooth as silk".  What constitutes "dried
properly"?  I have tried dried mullen and found it quite harsh!!!!!

John Funk

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Lewis & Clark Canoes?
Date: 03 Jun 1998 08:16:18 -0700

John;
I passed this on to a friend of mine in Western Idaho, Vern Illi. He and =
his
group made several dug-out canoes from yellow pine last summer to float d=
own
the Clearwater R. on the first few water miles of the L and C trip to the
Pacific. They stopped at Lewiston ID. Vern may be able to give you some i=
nfo on
design and material. Vern is at ' [e-mail]'.

Your comments on tarps and grommets is well taken. I was in a bigger hurr=
y than
good sense should allow. Alas, it's like so many things we see on this li=
st
that are expedients verses doing it right. We cut corners all too often.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

John Kramer wrote:

> Hello the Camp,
>
> While perusing my latest =93Maine Antique Digest=94 I came across the f=
ollowing
> request for help.  I thought it might make an interesting topic for the
> list, and we might be able to help.
>
> Begin article transcription:_________________
>
> =93LEWIS & CLARK CANOES
> In the journals of September 27 to October 7, 1805, five canoes were he=
wn
> from pine trees.  Do any drawings or other details exist for these craf=
ts?
> The Gorge Discovery Center & Wasco County Historical Museum is looking =
for
> details in the hopes that we might replicate one or more of the vessels.
> Any help would be appreciated.  Also anyone wishing knowledge of the tr=
ail
> in this area (The Dalles, Oregon), especially Rock Fort, please ask.
> <[e-mail]>.=94
>
> End article transcription:_______________________
>
> I don=92t have any direct information; but, I=92m betting if anyone doe=
s
> someone on this list can probably help them out.  Or perhaps know of
> another list that can.
>
> Best I can figure it would be pretty much a standard dugout canoe like =
many
> existing examples in museums.  Off hand I remember one good old one in
> Indianapolis at the State Museum downtown, at least it was there in=927=
9.
>
> I am Cc:ing them  a copy of this posting and would suggest those with i=
nput
> do the same so they can follow the discussion.  (Just hit the =93Reply =
to
> All=94 button on this original message when you reply, and it should ha=
ppen
> automatically).
>
> So who knows?
>
> John
>
>
> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
> john [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kevin Kierst <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 03 Jun 1998 08:58:20 -0700

Anybody,
My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade
books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and
live the life.  He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his
birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting.  I'm looking
for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks.
                            K.Kierst



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wefarmasmidgen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Alum sources
Date: 03 Jun 1998 15:15:44 -0500

Try a dying (as in dying of fibers/fabrics) site.  I don't have the source I
ordered it from  (on the old computer and haven't had use for it to make a
favorite on the new), but you can order it in larger amounts.  You might try
searcing for "natural dyes" on one of the search engines and following links
from there.  If that doesn't work, try "spinning" "dying" "fibers" or
something of that sort.  If you still have no luck, email me privately, and
I will make a concerted effort to find the source.

Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen
in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin
[e-mail]
Farm Trails  http://www.farmtrails.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 03 Jun 1998 15:32:53 -0400

The Black Powder Guide by Maj. George Nonte, is an oldie but goody. Rick
Hacker's Muzzleloading Hunter is good but he does seem to have a slant
away from flinters.  Of course you can't go wrong with a Dixie Gunworks
Catalog (best 5.00 you'll ever spend). For crafts, David Montgomery's
Mountainman Crafts and Skills has some good stuff. Probably the best
thing that you could do for your son is to buy him an NMLRA membership.
By the way, your kid has figured out in 12 years what took me 36 years
to figure out, this modern life is for the birds.

    -----Original Message-----
    From:    Kevin Kierst [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Wednesday, June 03, 1998 11:58 AM
    To:    [e-mail]
    Subject:    MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a
buckskinner!

    Anybody,
    My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur
trade
    books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few
yrs and
    live the life.  He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his
    birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting.  I'm
looking
    for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks.
                                K.Kierst



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 03 Jun 1998 14:39:03 -0600

Kevin,

I would recommend the Book of Buckskinning series and Muzzleloader Magazine
as excellent places to begin. Lots of ideas, how-to's, etc that are not too
far off the mark you are aiming at.

In my humble opinion, though, I would not buy a rifle of less than .50
caliber if he is at all thinking about hunting big game!!  Most states do
not allow less than .45 cal. for deer and .50 cal. for elk. I hunt elk with
my .54 and wouldn't think of using anything smaller. This caliber rifle does
not cost much or any more than a .40 caliber, & unless you are target
practicing or hunting small critters only, I think it would save money in
the long run.

Just my opinion, I may be wrong

Red Coyote

> ----------
> From:     Kevin Kierst
> Reply To:     [e-mail]
> Sent:     Wednesday, June 3, 1998 09:58
> To:     [e-mail]
> Subject:     MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
>
> Anybody,
> My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade
> books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and
> live the life.  He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his
> birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting.  I'm looking
> for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks.
>                             K.Kierst
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 03 Jun 1998 16:17:36 -0600 (CST)

>Anybody,
>My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade
>books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and
>live the life.  He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his
>birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting.  I'm looking
>for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks.
>                            K.Kierst


K. Kierst,

A few steps to take in getting into this hobby (read: obsession)

1. If you're investing in a rifle for him, you might want to go a bit
further and spend about a hundred or so bucks and get the entire _Book of
Buckskinning_ (BoBS) series, vols. 1-7, by Scurlock (formerly Rebel)
Publishing (800/228-6389).  They're as good as it gets for intro basic and
advanced information.  Of course, you can go one vol. at a time.  Start
with volume 1, which is introductory, then 2, and so on. The prices have
gone up periodically, so grab them while you can.  I haven't seen them in
book stores, but our local Tandy leather store has them.  You can order
them directly from Rebel, too.  I'd encourage him to continue the Fur Trade
reading, and maybe a subscription to _Muzzleloader_ magazine, published by
the same good people who do the BoBS series.

2.  Make sure you read and understand all you can about use and care of
muzzleloading firearms *first*; THEN take him to the range and learn to
shoot it safely.  It would be good for you to learn the firearm, too, so
you can coach him and enjoy it together.

3.  Find out about fur trade/buckskinner living history events in your area
and attend a few.  This is where the real fun of the hobby comes in.  The
networking and exchange of knowledge is priceless.

4.  Enjoy yourself.  Everything else just falls into place.

Welcome to the world of living history!!

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Donald A. Ricetti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tornados and other bad weather
Date: 03 Jun 1998 19:28:01 -0400

Scott:
Thanks for your concern. Lots of folks are all pitching in to help in the
clean up around the Pittsburgh area. The good news: The NMLRA Eastern
Site wasn't touched. This was grave concern for the staff as we have
thousands of man hours constructing the tavern and improving the grounds.
Never even lost a tree! The Booshway, Segundo and Scribe also escaped any
real damage. The Booshway witnessed a funnel cloud from afar and said
that was as close as he would ever like to be again!

Thanks again for the concern!
Bear and Sleepy Bear - Segundo and Media Director '98 EPR respectively

Scott Allen wrote:

> Hello the list,
>
> Just putting out a note to make sure that everyone on the list from
> western Maryland and northeast, West Virginia and Pennsylvania made
> it thru the tornados and bad storms of the past couple of days. Speak
> up so we know you are still out there.
>
> Your most humble servant,
> Scott Allen
> http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum
Date: 03 Jun 1998 05:33:11 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BD8EB1.191B0A40
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well years ago I wrote a booklet on Time Tested Tanning Recipes I have 3
recipes on alum,  salt and alum Tanning,  Tanning with Alum Carbolic Acid,
Tanning Furred Pelts with Alum Paste.    It sells for $5 plus 2 32cent
stamps,  I also wrote a booklet on Wild Game recipes.  Same price.  Later
Jon T

----------
: From: [e-mail]
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum
: Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 6:25 AM
:
: For anyone interested in Alum Tanning, I would suggest contacting Kent
Klein
: who wrote a booklet entitled "Tan Your Hide the Alum Way." I have seen
many of
: Kents hides and they are superb and almost indistigushable from brain
tanned.
: My friend purchsed a 50 lb bag of alum at a chemical supply store.
:
: Kent can be contacted at  [e-mail]
:
: Todd Glover
------=_NextPart_000_01BD8EB1.191B0A40
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Well years ago I wrote a booklet on =
Time Tested Tanning Recipes I have 3 recipes on alum,  salt and =
alum Tanning,  Tanning with Alum Carbolic Acid,  Tanning =
Furred Pelts with Alum Paste.    It sells for $5 plus 2 =
32cent stamps,  I also wrote a booklet on Wild Game recipes. =
 Same price.  Later Jon T<br><br>----------<br>: From: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000"><br>: =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum<br>: Date: =
Wednesday, June 03, 1998 6:25 AM<br>: <br>: For anyone interested in =
Alum Tanning, I would suggest contacting Kent Klein<br>: who wrote a =
booklet entitled "Tan Your Hide the Alum Way." I have seen =
many of<br>: Kents hides and they are superb and almost indistigushable =
from brain tanned. <br>: My friend purchsed a 50 lb bag of alum at a =
chemical supply store.<br>: <br>: Kent can be contacted at  <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000"><br>: =
<br>: Todd Glover</p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BD8EB1.191B0A40--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 03 Jun 1998 20:28:35 -0500

Hang it like tobacco. I usually cut mine right after it blooms out on the
stalk. Put about 12 leaves in a bundle and hang it up to dry. If you have
an outdoor shed that has good ventilation, that would be the best place to
hang it. Dry until the leaves are a soft tan color.
YMOS,
YellowFeather

----------
> From: john c funk,jr <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
> Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 9:10 AM
>
> Ken,
>
> You mentioned in your "tobacco" note that "when dried
> properly".......mullen smokes "smooth as silk".  What constitutes "dried
> properly"?  I have tried dried mullen and found it quite harsh!!!!!
>
> John Funk
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 03 Jun 1998 19:28:36 -0700

Monte,

Kinnikinnick is also called Bearberry here in the Pacific Northwest (upper left hand
wet zone), or at the nursery you get it by it's scientific name:  Arctostaphylos
uva-ursi, in a half dozen varieties.  The Arctostaphylos are the Manzanitas, and
Kinnikinnicks are the low growing forms, native from about San Mateo CA through
Alaska, and my garden books indicate that it is winter hardy throughout the country
wherever the average minimum temperatures are above -40 or -50 F!  Mine is about six
inches tall, and will slowly spread to ten or fifteen feet across.  It has lovely
tiny shiny dark green leaves that turn reddish in the fall, tiny white bell like
flowers and it sets red holly like berries in mid summer that stay on until the
birds finish them off in the fall.  Nurseries and garden books will help.  For the
suburban forager, once you can properly identify the stuff you may well start
finding it all over the urban and suburban scene, it is a VERY common hardy ground
cover.  There may even be opportunities for a little "pruning".....

Before you try any of this learn the difference between Kinnikinnick and "Bearberry
cotoneaster", a very similar looking ground cover, but a different genus:
Cotoneaster dammeri  and around here it looks darker green, has flowers that are not
bell shaped, and has some branches that arc up into the air in a characteristic
way.  This is another hardy common ground cover, and I have no idea how safely it
would smoke.  Ya might try looking over both at a nursery to sort out the
differences.

Crazy Crow sells Kinnikinnick smoking mixtures.

Watch yer topknot,
Night Heron



Monte Holder wrote:

> Is there another name for kinnickinnick that I missed somewhere along the way?
> And what is its growing range?  I would assume if there are berries, there would
> be seeds.  Wonder if a guy could grow some here in Missouri?
> Monte Holder
> Saline CO MO
>
> BTW, I grow some tobacco here in central Missouri from time to time and smoke it
> occasionally in a pipe, but it really works great for keeping hornworms off my
> tomatos and they are easier to see on those great big leaves.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 03 Jun 1998 19:31:56 -0700

Kevin;
I'm gona weigh in on this too because getting started right in this game is
just about the most important thing you can do. Every one has a right to
their opinion and I do not mean to offend but we used to refer to Dixie Gun
works as 'Dixie Junk Works' and I believe for good reason. I recently sent
for one of their catalogs and it was full of just as much junk as it's
always had. If you are looking for parts to a wide variety of guns, good
and bad, then it is a good catalogue to have. If you want to be sure that
what is being presented to you as quality and authentically styled
merchandise then 'Track of The Wolf' is a better catalogue to choose from.
It isn't the only one but is a good one.

I will vote to recommend that you get your son a membership in NRA not
NMLRA and that you look to the 'Book of Buck skinning" series vol.'s #1
through #7 as the best source for information on how to do it right. At any
rate go slow and look everything over with a critical eye.

My vote goes to the larger caliber guns too and for the same reasons. In my
state of WA. and in most states, 50 cal. is considered minimum for lager
game like elk and even though I've taken deer with a 50 cal. flinter, I
long ago converted to 54 cal. and wouldn't go back. I would go so far as to
recommend that you consider starting him out with a 20 gauge smooth bore
flint musket in NW trade gun length or longer. This gun shoots light (light
recoil) with a sane load of  60 to 70 grains and will take bird shot as
well as a round ball. Since it is a smooth bore, the purity of the lead you
use for your round balls is not critical and thus opens up a large area of
possible supply. I and friends hunt all game with this type of gun and cal.
from quail to elk and bear with full confidence in the weapons ability to
make clean kills. If you aren't thinking of hunting but more towards target
shooting, the trade gun is still a good choice. I have seen trade guns out
shoot rifles many times in the hands of a shooter who will learn his weapon
and how to get the most from it.

My recommendations for resource material leans towards the more recent
authors for much of the information put out 20 or 30 years ago has proven
in my opinion to be more guess than fact. The knowledge of the sport has
increased many times since I got started and I have had to re-evaluate my
beliefs many times.

Good luck to you both and I hope we have all been helpful and not muddied
the water too much.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

Kevin Kierst wrote:

> Anybody,
> My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade
> books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and
> live the life.  He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his
> birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting.  I'm looking
> for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks.
>                             K.Kierst



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 03 Jun 1998 19:49:55 -0700

Hmmmmmm,
Kevin, if you were looking for somebody to talk you and / or your son out
of buckskinning, you are talking to the wrong folks here.  We are all
learning as we go but all have to some extent at least the desire your son
demonstrates.

One of the best ways for me to learn these ways and crafts, after the book
and internet reading is talking with new found friends at rendezvous and
gun clubs that specialize in blackpowder shooting.   I would certainly
suggest that you NOT try to learn shooting based only on video and book
learnin'!  I am very fortunate to have a specialized blackpowder gun shop
fifteen minutes drive from me, and the folks there will give you great
advice.  The advice is not always perfectly consistent, but that only helps
you learn what is most important (the stuff they all agree on) and what you
will need to work your own way into.

I wonder how many on the list started at such a tender age?  I have helped
eleven year old Scouts shoot BP (blackpowder, not Baden Powell!) and in
other settings children much younger than that have enjoyed carefully
supervised shooting.  Several of the boys in my troop are bitten, and our
area has a MM specialized Explorer post.

Kevin, why don't you let us know where you are, and very likely some
experienced list members will be nearby and can help.

Night Heron

Kevin Kierst wrote:

> Anybody,
> My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade
> books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and
> live the life.  He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his
> birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting.  I'm looking
> for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks.
>                             K.Kierst



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tobacco
Date: 03 Jun 1998 20:33:49 -0700


--------------3D6799DBA87D567817E3A361
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ken said
  Mullen leaves are fantastic! Not only do they make great toilet paper
substitute but when properly dried they....
    Ken, you must be mistaking Mullein with something else like
balsamroot, or your butt is made of cast iron.  Common Mullein is
covered with fine prickly hairs all over, The leaves of the first year
rosette do resemble Mule ears or balsamroot.  I have had to do weed
control projects where I removed an acre of Mullein, and afterwards I
had to strip to my underwear to drive home without going mad from the
itching.  Mullein is a biennial and in the first year resembles
Balsamroot, but in the second year produces a stalk 2 to 6 feet tall
with a dense spike like flower head on top.  Mullein stalks are good for
fire drills and the leaves when pulverized can be used to stun fish.  If
you are not using Balsamroot  and do smoke and use Mullein as toilet
paper I am sorry for suggesting otherwise.  A good book for reference on
plants in the arid and alpine West is "Sagebrush Country: A Wildflower
Sanctuary" by Ronald J. Taylor.  If you can post again to clarify
exactly which plant you are talking about.        Chris Sega

--------------3D6799DBA87D567817E3A361
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Ken said
<BR>  <I>Mullen leaves are fantastic! Not only do they make great
toilet paper</I>
<BR><I>substitute but when properly dried they....</I>
<BR><I>   <B> </B></I>Ken, you must be mistaking Mullein
with something else like balsamroot, or your butt is made of cast iron.
Common Mullein is covered with fine prickly hairs all over, The leaves
of the first year rosette do resemble Mule ears or balsamroot.  I
have had to do weed control projects where I removed an acre of Mullein,
and afterwards I had to strip to my underwear to drive home without going
mad from the itching.  Mullein is a biennial and in the first year
resembles Balsamroot, but in the second year produces a stalk 2 to 6 feet
tall with a dense spike like flower head on top.  Mullein stalks are
good for fire drills and the leaves when pulverized can be used to stun
fish.  If you are not using Balsamroot  and do smoke and use
Mullein as toilet paper I am sorry for suggesting otherwise.  A good
book for reference on plants in the arid and alpine West is "Sagebrush
Country: A Wildflower Sanctuary" by Ronald J. Taylor.  If you can
post again to clarify exactly which plant you are talking about.
Chris Sega</HTML>

--------------3D6799DBA87D567817E3A361--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 03 Jun 1998 21:30:11 -0600

At 08:58 AM 6/3/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Anybody,
>My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade
>books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and
>live the life.  He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his
>birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting.  I'm looking
>for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks.
>                            K.Kierst
>

Howdy,
There's a relatively new book & video combo out lately that's about the
best I've seen for somebody just startin.  It's "Dress and Equipage of the
Mountain Man 1820-1840", from Rocky Mt. College Productions, 505/687-3267.
Get the book and video together for about $37 bucks.  They've got pretty
good historical references, and are focused on the Mountain Men during the
rendezvous period..
Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Allen Hall)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning
Date: 03 Jun 1998 23:05:57 -0600 (MDT)

Ron,

>Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides?
>While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good
>enough substitute, without the mess.
>
>Thanks in advance!
>Ron

Actually, brains aren't that much of a mess, and I bet they are much less
messy than lard and flour!

Allen Hall




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 04 Jun 1998 03:37:42 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-03 19:03:46 EDT, you write:

<< n my humble opinion, though, I would not buy a rifle of less than .50
 caliber if he is at all thinking about hunting big game! >>

Hey!  Wait a minute!  We're talking about a 12 yr old's learnin' gun!  .40 is
a great plenty!  We don't want him kicked so hard he quits after the first
shot.  Start him slow -- first on the range with light loads until he gets his
loading proficiency & marksmanship down, then go after a few bunnies &
squirrels.  When he turns 16 or so, then get the larger bore -- preferably in
a flint lock -- & go fo bigger game.  Don't let him get discouraged right at
first if his rifle doesn't drive tacks.  A lot of muzzleloaders need a "break
in period" which can take as many as 250 - 500 shots, but most will settle
down around 100 shots or so.  Take time to try different loaadings, by which I
mean different powder charger, ball sizes, patch thicknesses & even different
brands of powder.  The normal ball sizes for a .40 will be either .390 or .395
-- both sizes will shoot a bit differently, & the rifle will tell you which to
use. 'cuz it'll shoot that size best.  Try different patch thicknesses --
.010, .015, & .018 in. thick.  Again the rifle will tell you which it likes.
Start the powder charge about 30 gr of FFFg & bump it up 5 gr for every 5
shots when trying the different ball sizes & patch thicknesses.  I'd put a 50
gr limit on it for him.  As for powder, use a good black powder like Goex or
Elephant.  My personal preference is Goex, but some people like the Elephant
-- try 'em both & see which you like.  Be advised that Elephant doesn't quite
have the energy Goex does, so you need to load it a smidge heavier -- 3 - 5 gr
extra over the Goex charge in a .40 should even the velocities out.  Stay away
from the substitutes like Pyrodex & Black Canyon -- especialy at first.  The
substitutes are a bit finikey & sometimes don't do what's expected.  Have him
attend the Safe Hunter program -- they have a excelent section on B/P shooting
& he'll learn proper gun handling, & meet his requirement for a hunting
licnese as well.  Attent the class with him.  I used to be a NRA Safe Hunter
instructor, but when my son went through the class, I went too ----- & learned
a few things myself!  When I taught the course back in the mis '60's archery &
B/P wasn't part of the course -- I'm glad to see that's been incorperated.
Most new rifles/guns come with a pretty good instruction book.  Have him read
it -- & read it yourself.  BE SURE TO USE A POWDER MEASURE!!!  Use a good
patch lube or you can start him out with the prelubed patches.  Everybody has
their own pet mix for patch lube which can be anything from spit to Wonderlube
-- both work, but my favorite is Mac's 13 -- sold at NAPA auto parts stores as
NAPA 13 -- also works as a cleaner & it's cheap!  Cleaners -- again, everybody
has their own prefered cleaner, but hot soap & water is hard to beat.  After a
thurough cleaning be sure the bore is dry & lightly oil -- here I prefer Break
Free,  but there are a lot of other good products out there that work well too
-- like Hopies gun oil & even WD-40.  Remember, Hopies #9 is formulated for
modern powders & won't work that well on a B/P gun -- Hopies DOES make a B/P
cleaner that works pretty good.

Hope this helps a bit.  The books & magazines that have been mentioned are all
good, but Track of the Wolf is geared more toward the gun builder.  Excelent
catalog, but maybe a bit advanced at this stage.  A lot of times we forget
what it was like when we first started & think more in the terms of where
we're at now, so sometimes we advise someone just starting like they're a 30
yr vet with a smoke pole.  Other good sources are Jas. Townsed & Son, Log
Cabin, North West Traders, & a host of others.  Someone advised getting a
subscription to Muzzleloader magazine & a membership in NMLRA which includes a
subscription to Muzzle Blast magazine.  Thumb through these magazines & you'll
see all kinds of adds for catalogs as well as the ones I & others have
mentioned -- get the ones we've talked about first.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...
Date: 04 Jun 1998 06:33:46 EDT

In reference to red willow smell, I definitely know what you mean.  My son
smokes natural herbs of the legal kind.  We were out having pizza and he lit
up one of his cigarrettes after dinner.  The police arrived soon after.
Fortunately, he had the package the "Bidis" came in and the problem was
resolved.  But for you buckskinners out there smoking this stuff at camp or
otherwise, be forewarned and prepared to prove your source.

Red Hawk.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 04 Jun 1998 06:39:17 EDT

I had to respond to this one.  As a member in goodstanding of the NMLRA and a
female to boot, I would disagree that the NRA is a better organization for a
CHILD who is interested in being a buckskinner.  Those of us who seek out the
"older values" and ways of the past definintely do not fit into the NRA
mentality except for maybe agreeing of the right to bear arms.

Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Katona" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning
Date: 04 Jun 1998 07:27:27 +0000

D
Ron,

>Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides?
>While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good
>enough substitute, without the mess.
>
>Thanks in advance!
>Ron

Actually, brains aren't that much of a mess, and I bet they are much less
messy than lard and flour!

Allen Hall


Isn't it amazing how much effort goes into trying to avoid doing
things correctly?
Kind of like powdered eggs.  Next we will be jerking hotdogs and
reconstituting them for a weenie roast at voo.

Mike



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 04 Jun 1998 07:45:39 -0700

some comments from the dad of a 13 yr old....

My son started shooting frontstuffers at the age of eight. he started out
with a 32 cal percussion squirrel rifle. he became rather bored with the
pop-crack of that gun . Now he is shooting my 58 cal flint Barnett trade
gun, no loads over 50 grains at this point, with great excitement! Its all
a progression. Start out where you feel the most comfortable. If he's
shooting targets, 40 cal is fine. If hunting, Deer can be taken quite
effectively with a 40. Wouldn't try it fer griz r buff tho...

Vic

Vic Nathan Barkin
Printing and Reproduction Services Manager
NAU Publication Services
Box 4101, Flagstaff, AZ 86011
520-523-6160
[e-mail]





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 04 Jun 1998 07:51:13 -0700

OOOPs, wrong John Hancock!


>some comments from the dad of a 13 yr old....
>
>My son started shooting frontstuffers at the age of eight. he started out
>with a 32 cal percussion squirrel rifle. he became rather bored with the
>pop-crack of that gun . Now he is shooting my 58 cal flint Barnett trade
>gun, no loads over 50 grains at this point, with great excitement! Its all
>a progression. Start out where you feel the most comfortable. If he's
>shooting targets, 40 cal is fine. If hunting, Deer can be taken quite
>effectively with a 40. Wouldn't try it fer griz r buff tho...
>
>Vic

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 04 Jun 1998 08:21:29 -0500

Kevin,

I have to agree with what Roger Lahti said.  My boys both got hooked on
buckskinning years ago, and I had the same process to go through that
you are having now.  After being a member of the MNLRA for 10 years,
and the last was a 5 year membership, I left them.  They are not really
interested in anything outside of Friendship and rarely offered anything
remotely connected with someone interested in furtrade or mountain man
stuff and because they try to offer "all" of black powder they include all
the modern black powder guns.  I got them life memberships in the NRA,
and do not regret it at all.  I also got them a small gun, .36, that I was able
to make for almost nothing, less than a $100, and when they became 15
bought them a .54.  That seems to be the better of all occasions.  Some
states have a minimum requirement and the largest minimum is .54, so I
went with that.

Good luck and just remember, keep it simple.

Tim Austin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 04 Jun 1998 11:05:10 -0600 (CST)

.45, or .50, makes little difference to adults, but for a 12 year old kid,
.40 is a good caliber to start with, especially since he is just beginning.
.40 cal is also historically accurate for a period when standard calibers
were not the rule.  There were plenty .40s out there "back then."

I say let the kid learn with a .40, then graduate to something else.  If I
read his question correctly, we're not talking about going out and hunting
befiore the basics are learned.  We're talking about learning the basics of
shooting and firearm safety.  For that a .40 is adequate.   When the
hunting phase begins, after he becomes proficient, then maybe an upgrade is
in order.  I think a .40 for a 12 year old beginner is clearly a judicious
choice made by a thoughtful parent.

IMHO
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 04 Jun 1998 14:15:10 EDT

As for picking a gun, a local B/P club would be a good place to start. Most of
us guys are more than willing to talk (sometimes endlessly) and you'll get
plenty of help. Its also likely you'll  get the chance to shoot a number of
different calibers.  And as NaugaMok said, matching your load to the gun
breaking in a barrel are critical.  Get it right and you WILL BE nailing
tacks.

About joining a national organization? Well, its certainly your choice,  BUT,
the NRA for a buckskinner?  hmmmm.  In my humble opinion, it's questionable
whether they have the mind-set and/or interests of us
buckskinner/traditionalist types at heart.  The NMLRA seems to be quite a bit
more in tune, AND puts on some darned good rendezvous'.  Hope to meet you at
one of 'em soon.  PJ




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 04 Jun 1998 12:51:01 -0700


--------------275368AD00D5822CA661E927
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Buried in all that has come over the list on this subject is some good advice. Get
with some buck skinners/traditionalists and let them help. Do some research and
spend your time and money wisely.

On the subject of Nat. Organizations: I understand that your son is hooked on
being a MM/buck skinner. That sounds like traditionalist to me and NMLRA plays to
too many different aspects of the sport to be good at serving the needs of the
budding traditionalist. I used to belong to NMLRA until I learned about 'The
Buckskin Report' and in it's turn 'Muzzleloader Mag.'. Those two publications
spoke to the traditionalist in me unlike NMLRA's Muzzle Blasts, which was mostly
full of news of the 'Shoot' results at 'Friendship' and the latest in muzzle
loading gear for the shooter who didn't want to do it the old way but wanted his
muzzle loading to be as close to shooting modern cartridge firearms as modern
technology will allow.

I still joined the NMLRA each year though, because it was a requirement for entry
into the National Rendezvous' that were held out West. I did until NMLRA sued me
and others and took all the money that I and others had invested in the western
rendezvous. I don't support the NMLRA any more. I spend my money on the NRA, an
organization that at least is dedicated to fighting on a national level to protect
my right to 'Keep and Bear Arms' from my 18th century musket to my 20th century
semi auto. I can go to 'Muzzle Loader' and other such mag.s for reading material
that is truly aimed at the traditionalist/buckskinner/longhunter etc.

NMLRA puts on some darn fine rendezvous: Well it always seemed to me that it was
the folks in the field that put on those darn fine rendezvous, not the hierarchy
back in Friendship, Indiana. I'm sure the folks that still do put on NMLRA
sanctioned rendezvous put on darn fine do'ins but my time is limited and I choose
to attend non NMLRA events. Non NMLRA events are some darn fine do'ins too and it
don't cost me another $30 for a membership in a club back east.

Bottom line is this is my humble opinion and it may not fit anyone else. You asked
and you got!
And I should shut up and mind my own business. Not likely!

Your most humble and obedient servant
Capt. Lahti

[e-mail] wrote:

> As for picking a gun, a local B/P club would be a good place to start. Most of
> us guys are more than willing to talk (sometimes endlessly) and you'll get
> plenty of help. Its also likely you'll  get the chance to shoot a number of
> different calibers.  And as NaugaMok said, matching your load to the gun
> breaking in a barrel are critical.  Get it right and you WILL BE nailing
> tacks.
>
> About joining a national organization? Well, its certainly your choice,  BUT,
> the NRA for a buckskinner?  hmmmm.  In my humble opinion, it's questionable
> whether they have the mind-set and/or interests of us
> buckskinner/traditionalist types at heart.  The NMLRA seems to be quite a bit
> more in tune, AND puts on some darned good rendezvous'.  Hope to meet you at
> one of 'em soon.  PJ



--------------275368AD00D5822CA661E927
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Buried in all that has come over the list on this subject is some good
advice. Get with some buck skinners/traditionalists and let them help.
Do some research and spend your time and money wisely.

<P>On the subject of Nat. Organizations: I understand that your son is
hooked on being a MM/buck skinner. That sounds like traditionalist to me
and NMLRA plays to too many different aspects of the sport to be good at
serving the needs of the budding traditionalist. I used to belong to NMLRA
until I learned about 'The Buckskin Report' and in it's turn 'Muzzleloader
Mag.'. Those two publications spoke to the traditionalist in me unlike
NMLRA's Muzzle Blasts, which was mostly full of news of the 'Shoot' results
at 'Friendship' and the latest in muzzle loading gear for the shooter who
didn't want to do it the old way but wanted his muzzle loading to be as
close to shooting modern cartridge firearms as modern technology will allow.

<P>I still joined the NMLRA each year though, because it was a requirement
for entry into the National Rendezvous' that were held out West. I did
until NMLRA sued me and others and took all the money that I and others
had invested in the western rendezvous. I don't support the NMLRA any more.
I spend my money on the NRA, an organization that at least is dedicated
to fighting on a national level to protect my right to 'Keep and Bear Arms'
from my 18th century musket to my 20th century semi auto. I can go to 'Muzzle
Loader' and other such mag.s for reading material that is truly aimed at
the traditionalist/buckskinner/longhunter etc.

<P>NMLRA puts on some darn fine rendezvous: Well it always seemed to me
that it was the folks in the field that put on those darn fine rendezvous,
not the hierarchy back in Friendship, Indiana. I'm sure the folks that
still do put on NMLRA sanctioned rendezvous put on darn fine do'ins but
my time is limited and I choose to attend non NMLRA events. Non NMLRA events
are some darn fine do'ins too and it don't cost me another $30 for a membership
in a club back east.

<P>Bottom line is this is <B>my</B> humble opinion and it may not fit anyone
else. You asked and you got!
<BR>And I should shut up and mind my own business. Not likely!

<P>Your most humble and obedient servant
<BR>Capt. Lahti

<P>[e-mail] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>As for picking a gun, a local B/P club would be a
good place to start. Most of
<BR>us guys are more than willing to talk (sometimes endlessly) and you'll
get
<BR>plenty of help. Its also likely you'll  get the chance to shoot
a number of
<BR>different calibers.  And as NaugaMok said, matching your load
to the gun
<BR>breaking in a barrel are critical.  Get it right and you WILL
BE nailing
<BR>tacks.

<P>About joining a national organization? Well, its certainly your choice,
BUT,
<BR>the NRA for a buckskinner?  hmmmm.  In my humble opinion,
it's questionable
<BR>whether they have the mind-set and/or interests of us
<BR>buckskinner/traditionalist types at heart.  The NMLRA seems to
be quite a bit
<BR>more in tune, AND puts on some darned good rendezvous'.  Hope
to meet you at
<BR>one of 'em soon.  PJ</BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

--------------275368AD00D5822CA661E927--




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From: Les Chaffin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning
Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:59:19 -0700

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Some already do that.

Mike Katona wrote:
>
> D
> Ron,
>
> >Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides?
> >While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good
> >enough substitute, without the mess.
> >
> >Thanks in advance!
> >Ron
>
> Actually, brains aren't that much of a mess, and I bet they are much less
> messy than lard and flour!
>
> Allen Hall
>
> Isn't it amazing how much effort goes into trying to avoid doing
> things correctly?
> Kind of like powdered eggs.  Next we will be jerking hotdogs and
> reconstituting them for a weenie roast at voo.
>
> Mike
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From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning
Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:45:23 -0700

I have a friend that skillet parches canned Boston baked beans. oughta go
real good with them doggie jerks.

Barkin Dawg


>Some already do that.
>
>Mike Katona wrote:
>>
>> D
>> Ron,
>>
>> >Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides?
>> >While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good
>> >enough substitute, without the mess.
>> >
>> >Thanks in advance!
>> >Ron
>>
>> Actually, brains aren't that much of a mess, and I bet they are much less
>> messy than lard and flour!
>>
>> Allen Hall
>>
>> Isn't it amazing how much effort goes into trying to avoid doing
>> things correctly?
>> Kind of like powdered eggs.  Next we will be jerking hotdogs and
>> reconstituting them for a weenie roast at voo.
>>
>> Mike
>
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Vic Nathan Barkin
Printing and Reproduction Services Manager
NAU Publication Services
Box 4101, Flagstaff, AZ 86011
520-523-6160
[e-mail]





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From: Carpenter Family <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Parafin oil
Date: 04 Jun 1998 19:25:27 -0700

Hello the list:
We found, in my grandfathers garage, some parafin oil  My grandfather
was born in 1903 and died about 5 years ago.  I know he did many things
the old ways, because he was brought up that way, on the farm, in
Nebraska.  I have never heard of parafin oil.  Does anyone have info on
this?  Was it used by old timers for waterproofing?  I doubt this
material dates back to the fur trade days, but I believe it to be old.
I don't think parafin was around in the 1830's.  Is this related to what
we know as parafin, today, or not?

Thanks - Carp



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parafin oil
Date: 04 Jun 1998 22:39:10 EDT

On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:25:27 -0700 Carpenter Family
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hello the list:
>We found, in my grandfathers garage, some parafin oil  My grandfather
>was born in 1903 and died about 5 years ago.  I know he did many
>things
>the old ways, because he was brought up that way, on the farm, in
>Nebraska.  I have never heard of parafin oil.  Does anyone have info
>on
>this?

Wow!  A question I can actually answer, as we just finished a discussion
of paraffin oil on another list I'm on.  :-)

Paraffin oil is an early name for kerosene AKA lamp oil.

> Was it used by old timers for waterproofing?  I doubt this
>material dates back to the fur trade days, but I believe it to be old.
>
>I don't think parafin was around in the 1830's.  Is this related to
>what
>we know as parafin, today, or not?

Not really.  As I said, it's an early name for lamp oil or kerosene.  Do
NOT attempt to use it for waterproofing as you would essentially make a
huge, solvent soaked torch just begging for a stray spark to come
visiting.  I think the general consensus reached on the other list was
that this "paraffin oil" dates at the EARLIEST to the mid 1850's.

Hope this has been of some help.

LuAnn
>
>Thanks - Carp
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint
Date: 05 Jun 1998 01:19:46 EDT

thank you for making me see another side of the coin.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Allen Hall)
Subject: MtMan-List: Frock coat pattern
Date: 04 Jun 1998 23:31:13 -0600 (MDT)

Hello the List,

I'm just finishing up some hides for a frock coat/hunting jacket as seen in
the Miller paintings.  Does anyone have suggestions for a pattern?

Appreciate your help,

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Despain <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail  Shooting Pouch
Date: 05 Jun 1998 11:46:01 -0400

Anyone,

I've been trying to find a good pattern for a Beaver Tail Shooting
Pouch, but have yet to find one.  Does anyone out there know where to go
for such a pattern or have one?

Thanks,

Matt Despain
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail  Shooting Pouch
Date: 05 Jun 1998 12:09:49 -0600

Matt,
I don't know where to buy specific patterns for shooting bags, I have always
made my own.
There are two good sources, well actually one.

Book of Buckskinning #2, chapter 5
Book of Buckskinning #6, chapter 1

Both give excellent examples of period pouches and instructions for making
your own.

Good luck. Mail me offline for any specific help you may need. I've made
several for family and friends

Red Coyote

> ----------
> From:     Matt Despain
> Reply To:     [e-mail]
> Sent:     Friday, June 5, 1998 09:46
> To:     [e-mail]
> Cc:     Matt Despain
> Subject:     MtMan-List: Beaver Tail  Shooting Pouch
>
> Anyone,
>
> I've been trying to find a good pattern for a Beaver Tail Shooting
> Pouch, but have yet to find one.  Does anyone out there know where to go
> for such a pattern or have one?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt Despain
> [e-mail]
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kirk L. Davis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail  Shooting Pouch
Date: 05 Jun 1998 13:15:12 -0600

At 11:46 AM 6/5/1998 -0400, Matt Despain wrote:
>Anyone,
>
>I've been trying to find a good pattern for a Beaver Tail Shooting
>Pouch, but have yet to find one.  Does anyone out there know where to go
>for such a pattern or have one?
>
Try this web site, it is the Muntain Men and the Fur Trade Site and has
drawings and a pattern made from an origional.

http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/skchbk01.html

Kirk L. Davis
Salt Lake City, UT     [e-mail]

***********GO JAZZ************




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Flap Shooting Pouches
Date: 05 Jun 1998 14:31:30 -0600

Ho the list,

To Matt and everyone else confused by now,  the articles concerning pouches
are in

Book of Buckskinning #3, chapter 5 and B-o-B #6, chapter 1

Sorry

Lou



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail  Shooting Pouch
Date: 05 Jun 1998 18:14:13 -0400

MATT--

i HAVE AN ORIGINAL AND ALSO HAVE A PATTERN AND A SET OF INSTRUCTIONS FOR
A DOUBLE POCKET BEAVERTALE SHOOTING BAG-- I MADE MINE FROM A OLD MAIL
POUCH AND IT HAS LASTED OVER 30 YEARS--- ITS NOT LARGE BUT VERY EFFECIENT
AND USEFUL.  CONTACT ME OFFLINE AND GIVE ME YOUR NAME ADDRESS AND SUCH
AND WE WILL TRY TO FIX YOU UP.
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 11:46:01 -0400 Matt Despain <[e-mail]> writes:
>Anyone,
>
>I've been trying to find a good pattern for a Beaver Tail Shooting
>Pouch, but have yet to find one.  Does anyone out there know where to
>go
>for such a pattern or have one?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Matt Despain
>[e-mail]
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: RIFLE FOR KID
Date: 05 Jun 1998 18:18:31 -0400

WOULD kEVIN kERST PLEASE CONTACT ME OFF LINE SO THAT I HAVE PROPER E-MAIL
ADDRESS:

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ken Hall)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hemp
Date: 07 Jun 1998 00:21:49 GMT

Hail the list:

Although this URL is regestered to Hemp Textiles
International the resultant page is for VERIO
a Pacific Northwest ISP.

Is Hemp Textiles out of business??

Regrads,
/Ken


On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:46:59 EDT, you wrote:

>also check out www.hemptex.com
>
>Todd




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 06 Jun 1998 20:21:55 -0700

Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly mean no
disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability
of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be lightly
loaded for a young shooter.  This all but eliminates recoil and will still
shoot surprisingly well.  My 54 cal. Lyman Plains Rifle will shoot VERY well
even with a particularly young or inexperienced shooter in the 30 and 40 grain
loads of Pyrodex and .535 ball/.015 patch; with almost no kick, very acceptable
accuracy for a beginner, and the ability to move up to heavier loads and very
good "Hawken"  historical accuracy later as needed.   Granted that a young teen
will struggle packing a nine pound rifle over very many miles hunting, it
remains my favorite "factory rifle", particularly when customized from the
inexpensive kit form.  This .54 cal. rifle will serve all the way from
beginning shooter on the range to big game hunter or historically "correct"
reenacter for the American Fur Trade era you mentioned.

Starting with a .40 cal rifle will also be fine at the start, but might well
leave the shooter with an inferiority complex later.  I grant you that lots of
smaller caliber rifles served very well in historic times, and still can do
their magic today, including increasing the stress on making a single shot
count in hunting -- I still feel that the idea of loading each and every
frontstuffer shot to suit the shooter and the target opens up the larger
calibers to beginning shooters in ways cartrige shooters can only envy.

Night Heron
(aka Gary Bell)

Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> .45, or .50, makes little difference to adults, but for a 12 year old kid,
> .40 is a good caliber to start with, especially since he is just beginning.
> .40 cal is also historically accurate for a period when standard calibers
> were not the rule.  There were plenty .40s out there "back then."
>
> I say let the kid learn with a .40, then graduate to something else.  If I
> read his question correctly, we're not talking about going out and hunting
> befiore the basics are learned.  We're talking about learning the basics of
> shooting and firearm safety.  For that a .40 is adequate.   When the
> hunting phase begins, after he becomes proficient, then maybe an upgrade is
> in order.  I think a .40 for a 12 year old beginner is clearly a judicious
> choice made by a thoughtful parent.
>
> IMHO
> HBC
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail  Shooting Pouch
Date: 07 Jun 1998 00:04:31 -0400

good talking to you and will ship your pattern and buckel out monday--
will look thru the garage and see if i have the pattern and will ship it
too if i find it-.  last copy of instructions so please return when you
are done with it--good hunting and good buckskinning---keep your nose to
the wind and your eyes along the skyline---

YMHOSANT

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

_____________________________________________________________________
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 07 Jun 1998 01:18:22 -0400

Gary Bell wrote:
>
> Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly mean no
> disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability
> of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be lightly
> loaded for a young shooter.  This all but eliminates recoil and will still
> shoot surprisingly well.  My 54 cal. Lyman Plains Rifle will shoot VERY well
> even with a particularly young or inexperienced shooter in the 30 and 40 grain
> loads of Pyrodex and .535 ball/.015 patch; with almost no kick, very acceptable

[snip]

Just a caution, Gary.  Pyrodex is MUCH, MUCH more corrosive than black,
and since the topic is teaching youngsters, I'll mention that there is
cyanide released with every shot, as well as from unburned powder.  Take
a look at the Pyro. patent sometime....it's a real "eye opener."

Regards,

Fred

--
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
rights of ordinary Americans ..."

Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 06 Jun 1998 23:13:55 -0700

Hi Fred!

Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must confess, I have
never tried real BP!  I got started with some book advice about both, and advice from
the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman rifles that
Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion issues too.  I have
the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have developed my own
sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion.  I have a pretty good education in
biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide toxicity issue,
thanks for the timely input.  I have taught university classes in mammalian
physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative toxicity of cyanide and
sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out.  I have some trouble
with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of cyanide in normal usage
is available without warning or government control, so that aspect of your message
will get prompt attention.

The next moves are mine:  I should run up a series of shots with Goex and with
Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also check out the
toxicity issue you brought to our attention.

Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on these two
issues?

By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues covered on this list
about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant for me.  I have
always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no powder behind the
ball and patch when I had a failure to fire.

I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for the incentive!
To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too.

Night Heron
aka Gary Bell

Fred A. Miller wrote:

> Gary Bell wrote:
> >
> > Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly mean no
> > disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability
> > of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be lightly
> > loaded for a young shooter.  This all but eliminates recoil and will still
> > shoot surprisingly well.  My 54 cal. Lyman Plains Rifle will shoot VERY well
> > even with a particularly young or inexperienced shooter in the 30 and 40 grain
> > loads of Pyrodex and .535 ball/.015 patch; with almost no kick, very acceptable
>
> [snip]
>
> Just a caution, Gary.  Pyrodex is MUCH, MUCH more corrosive than black,
> and since the topic is teaching youngsters, I'll mention that there is
> cyanide released with every shot, as well as from unburned powder.  Take
> a look at the Pyro. patent sometime....it's a real "eye opener."
>
> Regards,
>
> Fred






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 07 Jun 1998 09:58:37 -0400

Gary Bell wrote:
>
> Hi Fred!
>
> Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must confess, I have
> never tried real BP!  I got started with some book advice about both, and advice from
> the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman rifles that
> Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion issues too.  I have

Well, sorry, but it's BAD information.  Pyro. will also "eat" the breech
UNburned, so a loaded rifle is slowly being destroyed while you're out
hunting a deer.  The "nasty" ingredient is potassium perchlorate, and
Pyro. is made of 19% p.p.

> the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have developed my own
> sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion.  I have a pretty good education in
> biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide toxicity issue,
> thanks for the timely input.  I have taught university classes in mammalian
> physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative toxicity of cyanide and
> sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out.  I have some trouble
> with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of cyanide in normal usage
> is available without warning or government control, so that aspect of your message
> will get prompt attention.

ANY amount of cyanide is too much, IMHO.

> The next moves are mine:  I should run up a series of shots with Goex and with
> Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also check out the
> toxicity issue you brought to our attention.

2 other black powders are more consistant, produce less fouling, and
have less sodium nitrate in the fouling because they DON'T use a
fertilizer grade nitrate.  They are Elephant and the WANO "P" grades.
The latter may be hard to find, but Elephant should be easily
obtainable.

> Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on these two
> issues?
>
> By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues covered on this list
> about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant for me.  I have
> always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no powder behind the
> ball and patch when I had a failure to fire.

Pyro. will ignight with percussion, but NOT flint.  Pyro. is also MUCH
more hygroscopic than black.

> I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for the incentive!
> To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too.

GOOD!  Since you like doing the research, you'll find the cyanide in a
compound used in the "mix."  Properly described, Pyrodex is a pyrotecnic
mixture.

Regards,

Fred

--
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
rights of ordinary Americans ..."

Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 07 Jun 1998 10:35:39 -0400

WHY ARE YOU EVEN SUGGESTING THE USE OF PYRODIX---MY FEELINGS ARE IF I USE
PYRODIX THEN I NEED TO GO OUT AND GET ME SOME PINK NOGGIEHIDE BUCKSKINS
TO WEAR SO THAT I CAN FEEL RIGHT AT HOME.

THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION HAS GOTTEN OFF THE BASIC INITIAL QUESTION OF WHERE
CAN THEY FIND INFORMATION AND A VIDEO ON THE PROPER USE AND MAINTENANCE
AND CARE AND FEEDING OF A BLACK POWDER FIREARM THAT A  14 YEAR OLD CAN
UNDERSTAND.


      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:58:37 -0400 "Fred A. Miller"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Gary Bell wrote:
>>
>> Hi Fred!
>>
>> Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must
>confess, I have
>> never tried real BP!  I got started with some book advice about
>both, and advice from
>> the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman
>rifles that
>> Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion
>issues too.  I have
>
>Well, sorry, but it's BAD information.  Pyro. will also "eat" the
>breech
>UNburned, so a loaded rifle is slowly being destroyed while you're out
>hunting a deer.  The "nasty" ingredient is potassium perchlorate, and
>Pyro. is made of 19% p.p.
>
>> the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have
>developed my own
>> sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion.  I have a pretty
>good education in
>> biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide
>toxicity issue,
>> thanks for the timely input.  I have taught university classes in
>mammalian
>> physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative
>toxicity of cyanide and
>> sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out.  I have
>some trouble
>> with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of
>cyanide in normal usage
>> is available without warning or government control, so that aspect
>of your message
>> will get prompt attention.
>
>ANY amount of cyanide is too much, IMHO.
>
>> The next moves are mine:  I should run up a series of shots with
>Goex and with
>> Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also
>check out the
>> toxicity issue you brought to our attention.
>
>2 other black powders are more consistant, produce less fouling, and
>have less sodium nitrate in the fouling because they DON'T use a
>fertilizer grade nitrate.  They are Elephant and the WANO "P" grades.
>The latter may be hard to find, but Elephant should be easily
>obtainable.
>
>> Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on
>these two
>> issues?
>>
>> By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues
>covered on this list
>> about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant
>for me.  I have
>> always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no
>powder behind the
>> ball and patch when I had a failure to fire.
>
>Pyro. will ignight with percussion, but NOT flint.  Pyro. is also MUCH
>more hygroscopic than black.
>
>> I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for
>the incentive!
>> To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too.
>
>GOOD!  Since you like doing the research, you'll find the cyanide in a
>compound used in the "mix."  Properly described, Pyrodex is a
>pyrotecnic
>mixture.
>
>Regards,
>
>Fred
>
>--
>"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
>rights of ordinary Americans ..."
>
>Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)
>
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 07 Jun 1998 13:30:05 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-06 23:25:01 EDT, you write:

<< Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly
mean no
 disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability
 of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be
lightly
 loaded for a young shooter.  This all but eliminates recoil and will still
 shoot surprisingly well.

I think you're addressing my comment about recoil.  True, a G/P CAN be lightly
loaded & give surprising accuracy at short range -- I have one in .50
percussion that does very well with 25 gr FF.  It does much better at 50 gr
with very little recoil.  Even at my hunting charge of 100 gr the recoil is
fairly light.  That particular rifle handles the heavy loading very nicely as
do most of the truer Hawkin designs.  Their weight & stock design was built
for it.  You're absolutely correct in saying a front stuffer's ability to
handle & be loaded with various charges makes more versitile for the beginning
shooter.

  Your later comment about a young teen toting a 9 lb rifle then becomes the
primary objection.  With the heavier calibers, comes a heavier barrel.  True,
I've seen a .50 bore in a 13/16" barrel, but that's AWFULLY thin & it's a
custom made barrel.  I recently scored a young teen through our rifle course
at our Rondy.  He was toting what looked like a Tradition or CVA .50 that was
just too much rifle for him.  He battled with that heavy piece all the way.
It was so heavy for him, he had to swing it up into position then struggle to
hold it.  When he'd tire a bit, he's switch fron shooting left handed to right
handed & vice versa.  To make matters worse, his dad had given him the wrong
size ball & by the time he had it started in the muzzle, it was no longer a
round ball, but a "wadcutter".  Definitely a bad scene!  This is the type
thing that will discourage a youngster & is exactly what we're hoping to
avoid.  I'll give this young man credit -- he finished the 20 shot course &
even managed to hit 3 targets.  He did better than my granddaughters did --
they were using the modified Pedersoli .45 my wife uses that weighs 6lbs, only
has 26" Orion barrel & a 12 1/2" pull & at 40 gr FFF is a real joy to shoot --
or it was until I shortened the pull.  I've only shot it once since I
shortened it up for her & it whacked my nose 'cuz it don't EVEN fit me any
more.  One granddaughter made 5 shots & the other 9, but it was their first
time & I think they bit off more than they expected.  We realy need to
encourage our young teens by not punishing them with a rifle that kicks or is
so heavy they just can't handle it.  Unfortunately very few manufacturers are
building "kid" & "women" rifles.  Dixie Gun Works makes the "Cub", but it's
barrel leaves a bit to be desired.  T/C makes the Senica, but it's design
doesn't fit into a true period rifle peramiter.  I've only seen the one
Pedersoli we have that was built for kids & women.  Not all fathers/
husbands/grandfathers have the ability to re-barrel & cut stocks, so that
leaves us with having an existing rifle modified by a competant gunsmith or
having a custom rifle built.  Doing that for the wife is one thing when we
know it's going to be her rifle for a long time, but doing it for a teen who's
going to out grow it in 2 - 4 years ---- well -- that's a problem.  I wish
there was a way to build an adjustable stock.  Maybe the solution is to buy
the $100 Traditions & CVA's to modify until they quit growing then get them a
GOOD rifle.  Those of us who have built small rifles for our kids/grandkids/
wives should be more generous in passing them down to future shooters we know.
Remember -- they're OUR future in keeping this sport we love alive into the
next 100 years.

In the powder expiraments you've been discussing with Fred -- look at flash
points too.  This should explain the problem with Pyrodex & flint locks.

NM




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Keith Garber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Won some ,lost most
Date: 07 Jun 1998 14:26:59 -0500

Gary,
    Pyrodex will work in pan of my trade gun. On a stationary target with shot
,Its a bit slow ,but works .Keith(one of those Pyro users for @20 years)

----------
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Won some ,lost most
Date: 07 Jun 1998 15:43:36 -0400

Keith Garber wrote:
>
> Gary,
>         Pyrodex will work in pan of my trade gun. On a stationary target with shot
> ,Its a bit slow ,but works .Keith(one of those Pyro users for @20 years)

We were talking about Pyro. in the bore, not the pan.

Fred

--
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
rights of ordinary Americans ..."

Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 07 Jun 1998 15:52:45 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-06-06 23:25:01 EDT, you write:

[snip]

> In the powder expiraments you've been discussing with Fred -- look at flash
> points too.  This should explain the problem with Pyrodex & flint locks.

Quite right!  Pyro's ignition temp. is quite a bit higher than black,
thus
it may or may not ignight in the pan, but almost certain not to ignight
in
the bore.  It's amazing that some will pay 2 to 3 times as much than
black
for something that turns to goo in high humidity, loves to destroy good
steel, and spews poisonous fumes!

Regards,

Fred



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail  Shooting Pouch
Date: 07 Jun 1998 18:08:38 EDT

You sent the wrong e-mail to the wrong person.  But it was nice to hear
from ya :)

Ted

On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:04:31 -0400 [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
writes:
>good talking to you and will ship your pattern and buckel out monday--
>will look thru the garage and see if i have the pattern and will ship
>it too if i find it-.  last copy of instructions so please return when
>you are done with it--good hunting and good buckskinning---keep your
>nose to the wind and your eyes along the skyline---
>
>YMHOSANT
>
>      "Hawk"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>1-[phone]
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get
>completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno
>at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mtman-list:Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 07 Jun 1998 17:37:02 -0700

Thought I'd put in my two cents.  I started shooting BP In 1990 When I
was 18, and I think many of the issues I faced would be the same for a
child of  twelve.  Find a gun that he could lug around comfortably of
45, 50, or 54, Cal.  Why go smaller than 45 when the weight Difference
is negligable and in most states you can take a deer with a 45 caliber,
and not with anything smaller. I did not shoot with experienced shooters
so any problems I had took a while to figure out.  Either you read and
ask questions to find answers or find experienced shooters to shoot with
your kid.  Also, double check advice cause some "old timers" give you a
whole mess of opinion and myth along with their good advice.  I wouldnt
suggest a flinter for a first gun, because they just take more fiddlin
with, and more experience to get shootin right, unless your kid is very
responsible and methodic about what he is doing.  And whatever you get,
Get a good lock!  My first gun was an ugly CVA 45 That was a tack
driver, when it went off.  The lock was junk and I had many misfires
till I changed locks.  If I had bought a quality gun to start with I
would have had much less trouble, and frustration.  For an inexpensive
storebought starter gun, a Thompson Center can't be beat as far as I am
concerned.  I am frankly quite abusive to that gun and I have probably
only had 3 misfires  with it. If it breaks, send it back and theyll fix
it or replace it.  As for powder, I started with pyrodex but I found
that BP allows you a little more leeway on cleaning and corrosion and
Pyrodex just does not go off every time.  Finally, if your kid wants to
be a buckskinner, and you are serious about letting him do it, You have
to become a Buckskinner.






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Southwest supplies and clothes
Date: 07 Jun 1998 17:42:43 -0700

Hey, does anyone know of a good source for patterns, clothing and
accoutrements like those in "Styles of the Southwest" Book of
Buckskinning 4.  I'm really interested in a pattern for a short new
mexican jacket or for one to buy.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner.!
Date: 07 Jun 1998 16:48:14 +0000

I thinkd Mike Katona said it best.  Why are we going for substitutes,
when the original works so well?  Breaintanning is just about as easy as you
are going to get.  The work is in preparing the hide, not what you use to
tan it.  Pyrodex doesn't offer any advantages over black powder.  It still
needs cleaning the same as bp, doesn't offer any gains in velocity and
darns sure smells worse.  If we stick to the old ways ourselves then we
should be teaching the new comers the old ways too.  Basicly, they worked then
and they still work now.  Forget the substitutes, and remember, if it
ain't broke, don't fix it.  If the old ways worked, use them.


DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY

Fred A. Miller wrote:
>Gary Bell wrote:
>>
>> Hi Fred!
>>
>> Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must
>confess, I have
>> never tried real BP!  I got started with some book advice about both,
and
>advice from
>> the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman
>rifles that
>> Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion issues
>too.  I have
>
>Well, sorry, but it's BAD information.  Pyro. will also "eat" the breech
>UNburned, so a loaded rifle is slowly being destroyed while you're out
>hunting a deer.  The "nasty" ingredient is potassium perchlorate, and
>Pyro. is made of 19% p.p.
>
>> the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have
>developed my own
>> sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion.  I have a pretty
good
>education in
>> biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide
>toxicity issue,
>> thanks for the timely input.  I have taught university classes in
mammalian
>> physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative toxicity
of
>cyanide and
>> sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out.  I have
some
>trouble
>> with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of cyanide
in
>normal usage
>> is available without warning or government control, so that aspect of
>your message
>> will get prompt attention.
>
>ANY amount of cyanide is too much, IMHO.
>
>> The next moves are mine:  I should run up a series of shots with Goex
and with
>> Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also
>check out the
>> toxicity issue you brought to our attention.
>
>2 other black powders are more consistant, produce less fouling, and
>have less sodium nitrate in the fouling because they DON'T use a
>fertilizer grade nitrate.  They are Elephant and the WANO "P" grades.
>The latter may be hard to find, but Elephant should be easily
>obtainable.
>
>> Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on
these two
>> issues?
>>
>> By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues
covered
>on this list
>> about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant
for
>me.  I have
>> always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no powder

>behind the
>> ball and patch when I had a failure to fire.
>
>Pyro. will ignight with percussion, but NOT flint.  Pyro. is also MUCH
>more hygroscopic than black.
>
>> I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for
the
>incentive!
>> To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too.
>
>GOOD!  Since you like doing the research, you'll find the cyanide in a
>compound used in the "mix."  Properly described, Pyrodex is a pyrotecnic
>mixture.
>
>Regards,
>
>Fred
>
>--
>"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
>rights of ordinary Americans ..."
>
>Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)
>
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner.!
Date: 07 Jun 1998 21:17:15 -0500

Finally! Common sense prevails! Here we are giving advice to this young man
and his father that is 180 degrees off what we all profess to love anyway.
I read the posting by Chris Sega and was delighted at his common sense
answers. He is right in saying that if this young man has a rifle too heavy
and has to struggle to even hit the paper he will in all probability get
discouraged and give up before he gets started. All of us would love to see
him start with the "perfect" gun and all the "period correct" gear, but
isn't the main thing to help him get off to a good start? I started with a
Thompson Center rifle as well and "graduated" to a Green River Rifle Works
rifle after the 1974 "rondy". I think the suggestion to get a TC in 45 cal.
is an excellent idea. Light enough and if he has to get the stock altered,
so what? A replacement stock is cheap enough and makes the gun OK for
resale. I have to agree with the comments about the smell of Pyro too.
Stuff smells terrible.
I know some of you will think that this old man is wrong in this, but I can
remember my start in the spring of 1974 very well. I only wish this young
man had someone like Wolf Smither to help him as well. Thanks to Wolf, I
put all my efforts into my clothing and accoutrements so I could make it to
my first rendezvous at Henry's Fork in July that same year. Nothing beats
the hands on experience surrounded by old hands at buckskinning who are
willing to help a greenhorn with his gear. Instead of all this talk about
powders and period perfect rifles, why don't we all help this young man
gather the clothing and such so he can have the same experience. One good
rendezvous and he will be off and running!
YMOS,
YellowFeather





----------
> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
> To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner.!
> Date: Sunday, June 07, 1998 11:48 AM
>
> I thinkd Mike Katona said it best.  Why are we going for substitutes,
> when the original works so well?  Breaintanning is just about as easy as
you
> are going to get.  The work is in preparing the hide, not what you use to
> tan it.  Pyrodex doesn't offer any advantages over black powder.  It
still
> needs cleaning the same as bp, doesn't offer any gains in velocity and
> darns sure smells worse.  If we stick to the old ways ourselves then we
> should be teaching the new comers the old ways too.  Basicly, they worked
then
> and they still work now.  Forget the substitutes, and remember, if it
> ain't broke, don't fix it.  If the old ways worked, use them.
>
>
> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY
>
> Fred A. Miller wrote:
> >Gary Bell wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Fred!
> >>
> >> Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must
> >confess, I have
> >> never tried real BP!  I got started with some book advice about both,
> and
> >advice from
> >> the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman
> >rifles that
> >> Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion issues
> >too.  I have
> >
> >Well, sorry, but it's BAD information.  Pyro. will also "eat" the breech
> >UNburned, so a loaded rifle is slowly being destroyed while you're out
> >hunting a deer.  The "nasty" ingredient is potassium perchlorate, and
> >Pyro. is made of 19% p.p.
> >
> >> the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have
> >developed my own
> >> sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion.  I have a pretty
> good
> >education in
> >> biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide
> >toxicity issue,
> >> thanks for the timely input.  I have taught university classes in
> mammalian
> >> physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative toxicity
> of
> >cyanide and
> >> sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out.  I have
> some
> >trouble
> >> with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of cyanide
> in
> >normal usage
> >> is available without warning or government control, so that aspect of
> >your message
> >> will get prompt attention.
> >
> >ANY amount of cyanide is too much, IMHO.
> >
> >> The next moves are mine:  I should run up a series of shots with Goex
> and with
> >> Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also
> >check out the
> >> toxicity issue you brought to our attention.
> >
> >2 other black powders are more consistant, produce less fouling, and
> >have less sodium nitrate in the fouling because they DON'T use a
> >fertilizer grade nitrate.  They are Elephant and the WANO "P" grades.
> >The latter may be hard to find, but Elephant should be easily
> >obtainable.
> >
> >> Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on
> these two
> >> issues?
> >>
> >> By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues
> covered
> >on this list
> >> about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant
> for
> >me.  I have
> >> always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no powder
>
> >behind the
> >> ball and patch when I had a failure to fire.
> >
> >Pyro. will ignight with percussion, but NOT flint.  Pyro. is also MUCH
> >more hygroscopic than black.
> >
> >> I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for
> the
> >incentive!
> >> To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too.
> >
> >GOOD!  Since you like doing the research, you'll find the cyanide in a
> >compound used in the "mix."  Properly described, Pyrodex is a pyrotecnic
> >mixture.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Fred
> >
> >--
> >"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
> >rights of ordinary Americans ..."
> >
> >Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >RFC822 header
> >-----------------------------------
> >
> >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com
> >  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AE17F7028E; Sun, 07 Jun 1998 08:05:11 MDT
> >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1)
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> (EDT)
> >Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
> >Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:58:37 -0400
> >From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
> >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I)
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
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> >
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>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael Branson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Southwest supplies and clothes
Date: 07 Jun 1998 21:51:10 -0500

Chris: look for a book published by the Fur Press, PO Box 604, Chadron, Neb.
69337. The book is called "The Monutain Man Sketch Book vol. 1." It has a
pattern for a short Mexican jacket. If you are looking for the later one
that some folks wear. I might suggest the Buffalo Hunters Sketch Book. I
might as well weigh in on the issue of fire arms for youngsters. I agree
with every thing you just posted. I worked as the gunsmith for Luke and
Sally at the Mountain Man Shop for over two years back 20 years ago and what
you said was true even then. The repair work I spent most of my time on 20
years ago was CVA locks and italian revolving pistols. Beware of some old
timers advice as a grey beard doesn't always signify intelligence. But some
old guys do know what they are talking about. You should be careful about
picking the right person to listen too. I admit I 'm prejudiced towards the
NMLRA. I have been a member since one old grey beard named Max Vickory
taught me to load a muzzle loader clear back when I was a younker. Yet, the
NMLRA have been around  since 1933, those old timers whether they wear bib
overalls or buckskin sure seem to know alot about muzzle loaders. You might
make an argument that they spend  alot of their energy on Friendship, but I
have yet to go to any event any where in America that has as much to offer
as a spring shoot at Friendship, Ind. They do have it all. After all these
years of traveling and visiting and camping at all the Rendezvous I have
been to. There is still not quite anything in black powder that excites me
as much as driving into Friendship, Ind on a fine June morning. Just the
sound of all those guns firing and the crowd hurrying around commercial row,
or just looking at two or three fellas grouped together in serious
conversation over a long gun they keep handing around. The sight of tipis
all set up with traders sitting there in front of their camps rather than
sitting on some commercial row. Yep, You might find some living history
group doing the costume thing better, but to those of us who started with
guns before we had tipis or buckskin you can't replace Friendship with a
group of costumed "experts" talking to tourists, nothing against living
history I love it also,  I just feel that each "event"  has its own appeal .
You want to teach a youngster about guns and shooting and buckskinning and
shot guns, and flintlocks, and caplocks and pistols, and trail walks.... go
to Friendship, Ind. Number one: forget the politics of the Rendezvous scene
it has ruint many a good man. Don't turn your nose up on any publication.
Leave the arguuing to the old timers who don't seem to have any thing better
to do except sit around a fire and bitch, you won't usually find them doing
much except looking for another meeting to hold in someone's tipi or
recovering from a hangover griping  around a fire. Sincerely Michael Branson
former politician who learned the hard way. You only live once have a good
time.
-----Original Message-----


>Hey, does anyone know of a good source for patterns, clothing and
>accoutrements like those in "Styles of the Southwest" Book of
>Buckskinning 4.  I'm really interested in a pattern for a short new
>mexican jacket or for one to buy.
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes
Date: 07 Jun 1998 21:43:51 -0700

Thanks for the reply Mike. I have the mtn mans sktchbk 1.  Frankly Im
too clumsy to build anything without better plans than what is shown in
the sketch book.  I'm lookin to buy a jacket or get real detailed plans
so I dont fart around producing some ill fitting monstrosity.  There has
to be some trader out there with products that are southwest influenced.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Southwest supplies and clothes Now:NMLRA
Date: 08 Jun 1998 02:50:09 -0500

Washtahay-
    Mike, you seem to speak from a position of some knowledge in defense of
the NMLRA.  Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide me with an
accounting of the funds allegedly stolen, the amount recovered, the cost of
its recovery, and an explanation as to what charges were filed-or why none
were.  This is information the NMLRA told me was (and I do quote) "none of
your business".  Yes, I was a member at the time.
    I admit I am biased against the NMLRA, based on what I have observed of
the way it conducts business.  Show me I am wrong.
    I won't dignify your comments about "Leave the arguuing to the old timers"
with a response.
LongWalker c. du B




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes
Date: 08 Jun 1998 06:48:59 -0500

Call James "Horsefly" Halter in Henrietta, Texas.  He used to make the
buckskinner trade circuit and sold lots of southwestern style clothes.  He
services the gunfighters these days but he is still a damn fine tailor and
can probably make whatever you want.  Some of his clothes were seen in the
movie Tombstone.  Be forewarned, he is sometimes as cranky as a cold Model T
Ford.  Ask about his boots, too.
Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
-----Original Message-----


>Thanks for the reply Mike. I have the mtn mans sktchbk 1.  Frankly Im
>too clumsy to build anything without better plans than what is shown in
>the sketch book.  I'm lookin to buy a jacket or get real detailed plans
>so I dont fart around producing some ill fitting monstrosity.  There has
>to be some trader out there with products that are southwest influenced.
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Getting Started in Buckskinning
Date: 08 Jun 1998 08:00:45 -0500

Many have seemed to be obsessed with the use of Pyrodox.  WHY???
If you are in the sport and pastime of buckskinning the object is historical
accuracy, not just who can dress the funniest (as some I have seen at
different rendezvous).  The use of Pyrodox shows that you are not
really interested in "doing it right", so no wander your other stuff is so
bad.  Guess you are the ones I see with the chrome tanned leather on
and saying "it is just as good".

Either do it right or don't do it.

Tim Austin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Southwest supplies and clothes
Date: 08 Jun 1998 10:03:21 -0600 (CST)

>Chris: look for a book published by the Fur Press, PO Box 604, Chadron, Neb.
>69337. The book is called "The Monutain Man Sketch Book vol. 1." It has a
>pattern for a short Mexican jacket. If you are looking for the later one
>that some folks wear. I might suggest the Buffalo Hunters Sketch Book. I
>might as well weigh in on the issue of fire arms for youngsters.

Chris,
Mike is right about recommending the Sketchbook series.  Their value is
that they give you ideas on the stylistic possibilities, and they let you
see each part and show you how they all fit together.  Be aware, though,
that they really aren't true patterns, per se, but exploded drawings
showing each part of the garment.  You still have to translate the
proportions to full size and make the pattern before you begin cutting
fabric or buckskin.   I woulkd prefer real patterns, because I don't know
how to translate those proportions very well.  I've tried it and it didn't
work.  Patterns for SW fur trade clothing would make life so much easier.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes
Date: 08 Jun 1998 10:09:37 -0600 (CST)

>Call James "Horsefly" Halter in Henrietta, Texas.  He used to make the
>buckskinner trade circuit and sold lots of southwestern style clothes.  He
>services the gunfighters these days but he is still a damn fine tailor and
>can probably make whatever you want.  Some of his clothes were seen in the
>movie Tombstone.  Be forewarned, he is sometimes as cranky as a cold Model T
>Ford.  Ask about his boots, too.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>[e-mail]

Horsefly is a good source for information and ideas, and he's an excellent
period tailor, but unless he's is willing to reproduce his patterns for
sale, I think we're back at square one.  I could buy what I need from
Horsefly, which I have done, but I too would like to have a New Mexican
jacket made by my own hands.  I have the skins, but not the patterns.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: seanbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 04 Jun 1998 17:31:07 -0400

Just a few regarding doing things together...  My Buckskinning is one of the
reason I got divorced... and that is not bad... <grin>  My ex never wanted
to go with me and never seemed to have the time... Said it was just "all
games, and I didn't need games..."  People, I'm here to tell ya that a
family that does not do things together isn't going to be around along.  I
met a wonderful lady who LOVES Buckskinnin, and now I am married to her.  My
son has been shooting BP since he was a squirt <8 yrs old> and still enjoys
it.  Vicki and I were married at the Alafia this pasT January in an old
fashioned Celtic Highland ceremony (see
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/1427 for pictures), and now my
son and his fiance want to get married at the next Alafia with a Highland
Ceremony.  He's been bitten by the bug... hehe

I know this is off the subject of the young man and his first BP front
stuffer, but I wanted to let everyone know that this is a family "sport",
and enjoyed by all.

Addison Miller
aka Seanbear


-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 98-06-03 15:18:25 EDT, you write:
>
><< My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade
> books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and
> live the life.  He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his
> birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting.  I'm looking
> for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks.
>                             K.Kierst
>  >>
>
>Tell the list where you live and how far you will drive to get to an event.
>Then when we reply with dates and times of any shoot/camp, take your son
and
>go.  At the event ask for the range officer or booshway and tell them you
>would like some help in learning to shoot your new .40.  I have never been
to
>a camp that would not get you 5 to 10 people willing to take you by the
hand
>and lead you thru all you need to know for safe fun shooting and some can
even
>make cleaning your smokepole fun as well.
>
>And well you are cleaning up, saay a little prayer of thanks to the grand
>fathers and spirts for the joy of having a son that wants to do something
with
>you.  Re-inacting, rendezvous and muzzleloading is a great family
experiance.
>If you get the latest issue of Smoke & Fire my daughter and I are shown
>shooting on page 23.
>
>Welcome to the wonderful world of living history, and welcome to your son.
>This life style/hobby will die without the interest and participation of
new
>generations.
>
>Your Humble Servant
>
>C.T. Oakes
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail  Shooting Pouch
Date: 08 Jun 1998 09:56:51 -0400

SORRY TED WILL RETRANSMIT ACCORDINGLY---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Sun, 07 Jun 1998 18:08:38 EDT [e-mail] (Ted A Hart) writes:
>You sent the wrong e-mail to the wrong person.  But it was nice to
>hear from ya :)
>
>Ted
>
>On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:04:31 -0400 [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
>writes:
>>good talking to you and will ship your pattern and buckel out
>monday--
>>will look thru the garage and see if i have the pattern and will ship
>
>>it too if i find it-.  last copy of instructions so please return
>when
>>you are done with it--good hunting and good buckskinning---keep your
>>nose to the wind and your eyes along the skyline---
>>
>>YMHOSANT
>>
>>      "Hawk"
>>Michael Pierce
>>854 Glenfield Dr.
>>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>>1-[phone]
>>_____________________________________________________________________
>
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get
>>completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno
>>at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get
>completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno
>at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

_____________________________________________________________________
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 08 Jun 1998 12:07:34 -0400

HOW ABOUT A SIMPLE SOLUTION WITH A COMMON SENSE APPROACH---
please be prepared this is going to take some time---------

there has been over 30 postings on this subject and we have been around
the horn from everything but the original question that was
asked----everyone has put their emotional 2 cents in and stated all the
organizations and their likes and dislikes---

who can answer this question??????---is there videos or books that would
be good for a new shooter---I can answer this-------try "Shooting and
winning with the champions"  from National Muzzle loading rifle
association $12.00 (nonmembers) and they have a full series of slides and
training materials and video's that is available---phone number is as
follows:  1-812-667-5131---I DON'T CARE WHETHER YOU LIKE THE NMLRA OR NOT
THEY HAVE GOOD SOLID AND CORRECT INFORMATION AVAILABLE THAT WILL NOT
STEER A NOVICE WRONG---

NOW ON THE GUN THING---
I have helped a many new shooter get started, and a Darn good starting
point for a youngster is to find a Numerich under hammer action and butt
stock  if it has a barrel then You can use it as it is (total cost
usually less than $200.00) but usually I  unscrew the barrel and throw it
away--order a good barrel from any reputable maker---from 13/16 to 1 1/8
depending on what you feel is appropriate--caliber is unimportant--as
long as the thread is 5/8 18 threads per inch---in the breach ---- drill
and tap one hole for the nipple on the bottom flat of the barrel and
insert a nipple usually 1/4 28 --- cut 2 dovetails for sights or drill
and tap and screw sights on as appropriate.  cut the barrel length to any
size from 18" to the full length that is supplied by the maker-- a 13/16
barrel weights approximately 2.3 oz per in of barrel 40 cal---a 1 1/8
weighs 4.3 oz per inch in a 40 cal
SO--------CUT THE BARREL TO THE LENGTH THAT YOU WANT TO GET THE WEIGH OF
GUN YOU WANT---BARREL WEIGHT WILL BE LIGHTER IF YOU USE LARGER
CALIBER---I have an original under hammer target rifle with a 18 inch
barrel---very accurate.

now the kid has a rifle he can grow with and change to any caliber up to
about 54 by simply buying a good quality barrel and installing it----all
work can be done with a drill press and taps and some files.

NOW SOMETHING NEAR AND DEAR TO MY HEART------SAFETY-------
IMPORTANT----IMPORTANT----IMPORTANT---

Yes there are some 13/16 barrels out there in 45 cal---these are
marginal---by my way of thinking and I have seen several that have split
and done some strange things when breech plugs and overcharging
occurs---this can easily happen----I DO NOT RECOMMEND A 13/16 BARREL FOR
ANY CALIBER OVER .40---- a 13/16 barrel is .8125 dia across the flats or
.206 material thickness if the bore is perfectly centered---install a
standard 5/8 18 thread breech plug and you have a .093 wall thickness at
the weakest point---KINA THIN DON'T YOU THINK -----I VERY SELDOM USE A
BARREL WITH FLATS LESS THAN 15/16 FOR THAT REASON-----BUT I TAKE THE DUMB
STUPID SAFE WAY APPROACH.

THE SUGGESTION OF A .500 BARREL IN 13/15- IS ASKING TO HAVE YOUR HEAD
BLOWN OFF OR YOUR EYES PUT OUT-----THIS OLD MAN ISN'T GOING TO DO IT AND
I KINA LIKE MY ARMS AND EYES BETTER---THIS MUST BE THE PROZAC KICKING
IN--------

THE comments of the junior shooter only hitting 3 targets is something
that should be addressed-- i suggest you take that junior shooter out and
do some practice prior to going to a shooting match-- teach him sight
alignment and sight picture if he cannot hold the gun then it's time to
get him or her a gun that they can hold or refrain from their shooting
until they are big enough to shoot it---most sub junior matches are
usually shot from a rest because of this----I built a full size 9 lb
hawkens for a kid in 54 cal---but he is a big kid and could hold it and
14 years old---I took him out and taught him how to load and to shoot it
properly---and made him clean it too.  I took him to the North Carolina
State championships with myself and his father after shooting it for only
one  day---He won the Junior aggregate and 3 of the 4 matches in the
aggregate---shot a 46 on a big bull off hand and 48 off the bench at 50
yds.  YES THE KID HAS SHOT BEFORE--- MANY HRS WITH A 22 RIFLE---YES WE
SIGHTED THE GUN IN TO MATCH HIS SIGHT PICTURE--FIXED IRON SIGHTS--

In november last year he killed his first deer with it--had to call me
and tell me about it and the thrill of using his muzzle loader will stay
with him the rest of his life.  His dad didn't want him to start with
junk---and loose interest in the sport---I built his dad a gun over 10
years ago and it is still as accurate as the day it was built---and he
knows the difference a good barrel and lock will make----

I HAVE BEEN ON THE GRANDSTAND LONG ENOUGH--DOES THIS ANSWER THE ORIGINAL
QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED THAT I HAD HOPED THAT SOMEONE ELSE SHOULD HAVE
TAKEN THE TIME TO ANSWER.

please list forgive me for the shouting---some very important points
needed to be made---you may or may not agree with me on this subject but
we have completely gotten  off the original subject of the question
asked----OR IS IT MY EYES ARE FAILING ME AND I HAVE FORGOTTEN HOW TO
READ.  I apologize now if i have offended anyone with my comments and my
common sense approach---I TRIED THE "SO WHAT"  TEST AND IT WASN'T
WORKING---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:30:05 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>In a message dated 98-06-06 23:25:01 EDT, you write:
>
><< Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I
>certainly
>mean no
> disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the
>ability
> of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to
>be
>lightly
> loaded for a young shooter.  This all but eliminates recoil and will
>still
> shoot surprisingly well.
>
>I think you're addressing my comment about recoil.  True, a G/P CAN be
>lightly
>loaded & give surprising accuracy at short range -- I have one in .50
>percussion that does very well with 25 gr FF.  It does much better at
>50 gr
>with very little recoil.  Even at my hunting charge of 100 gr the
>recoil is
>fairly light.  That particular rifle handles the heavy loading very
>nicely as
>do most of the truer Hawkin designs.  Their weight & stock design was
>built
>for it.  You're absolutely correct in saying a front stuffer's ability
>to
>handle & be loaded with various charges makes more versitile for the
>beginning
>shooter.
>
>  Your later comment about a young teen toting a 9 lb rifle then
>becomes the
>primary objection.  With the heavier calibers, comes a heavier barrel.
> True,
>I've seen a .50 bore in a 13/16" barrel, but that's AWFULLY thin &
>it's a
>custom made barrel.  I recently scored a young teen through our rifle
>course
>at our Rondy.  He was toting what looked like a Tradition or CVA .50
>that was
>just too much rifle for him.  He battled with that heavy piece all the
>way.
>It was so heavy for him, he had to swing it up into position then
>struggle to
>hold it.  When he'd tire a bit, he's switch fron shooting left handed
>to right
>handed & vice versa.  To make matters worse, his dad had given him the
>wrong
>size ball & by the time he had it started in the muzzle, it was no
>longer a
>round ball, but a "wadcutter".  Definitely a bad scene!  This is the
>type
>thing that will discourage a youngster & is exactly what we're hoping
>to
>avoid.  I'll give this young man credit -- he finished the 20 shot
>course &
>even managed to hit 3 targets.  He did better than my granddaughters
>did --
>they were using the modified Pedersoli .45 my wife uses that weighs
>6lbs, only
>has 26" Orion barrel & a 12 1/2" pull & at 40 gr FFF is a real joy to
>shoot --
>or it was until I shortened the pull.  I've only shot it once since I
>shortened it up for her & it whacked my nose 'cuz it don't EVEN fit me
>any
>more.  One granddaughter made 5 shots & the other 9, but it was their
>first
>time & I think they bit off more than they expected.  We realy need to
>encourage our young teens by not punishing them with a rifle that
>kicks or is
>so heavy they just can't handle it.  Unfortunately very few
>manufacturers are
>building "kid" & "women" rifles.  Dixie Gun Works makes the "Cub", but
>it's
>barrel leaves a bit to be desired.  T/C makes the Senica, but it's
>design
>doesn't fit into a true period rifle peramiter.  I've only seen the
>one
>Pedersoli we have that was built for kids & women.  Not all fathers/
>husbands/grandfathers have the ability to re-barrel & cut stocks, so
>that
>leaves us with having an existing rifle modified by a competant
>gunsmith or
>having a custom rifle built.  Doing that for the wife is one thing
>when we
>know it's going to be her rifle for a long time, but doing it for a
>teen who's
>going to out grow it in 2 - 4 years ---- well -- that's a problem.  I
>wish
>there was a way to build an adjustable stock.  Maybe the solution is
>to buy
>the $100 Traditions & CVA's to modify until they quit growing then get
>them a
>GOOD rifle.  Those of us who have built small rifles for our
>kids/grandkids/
>wives should be more generous in passing them down to future shooters
>we know.
>Remember -- they're OUR future in keeping this sport we love alive
>into the
>next 100 years.
>
>In the powder expiraments you've been discussing with Fred -- look at
>flash
>points too.  This should explain the problem with Pyrodex & flint
>locks.
>
>NM
>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Carlson Wagonlit Travel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Getting Started in Buckskinning
Date: 08 Jun 1998 09:18:53

At 08:00 AM 6/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Many have seemed to be obsessed with the use of Pyrodox.  WHY???
>If you are in the sport and pastime of buckskinning the object is historical
>accuracy, not just who can dress the funniest (as some I have seen at
>different rendezvous).  The use of Pyrodox shows that you are not
>really interested in "doing it right", so no wander your other stuff is so
>bad.  Guess you are the ones I see with the chrome tanned leather on
>and saying "it is just as good".
>
>Either do it right or don't do it.
>
>Tim Austin
>

Tim,
I really resent your remarks.
Since I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion here's mine.
First, black powder isn't available everywhere, I had heard  one of the
Carolina
States just banned BP as a propellant. When I first started in this pastime
I used
Pyro because I didn't know any better nor was powder available to me.
Second off everyone knows just how spendy brain tan is, and not everyone
has the space or the time to do it themselves. So they have to go with the
best alternative they can. It's to bad that you can't accept everyone into
the sport
and let them learn and teach them the right way by sparking the interest in
the historical
aspect of our sport and letting them make their own persona.
Now I agree that there are the people that are the most tacky in the world
and make their
buckskins out of nagohyde(sp) and think this is just as good as anything
else, if these are the
people you are talking about please accept my sincere apologies.

Matt Mitchell
Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders
Moscow, Idaho
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Getting Started in Buckskinning
Date: 08 Jun 1998 12:20:59 -0400

concur with the do it right or dont do it----My black is a heck of a lot
more dependable than a lot of those that I see at deer camp that ues
pyrodex and have missfires 30 % of the time---have just about got them
all convenced--I  load my rifle at opening morning and the load is in the
barrel until I get my shot or we get ready to leave---just remove the
prime and make it safe ever night and keep it in a dry place---She aint
failed me yet---has held a load in cold--wet and damp for over a week and
still will shoot ---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 08:00:45 -0500 WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin)
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Many have seemed to be obsessed with the use of Pyrodox.  WHY???
>If you are in the sport and pastime of buckskinning the object is
>historical
>accuracy, not just who can dress the funniest (as some I have seen at
>different rendezvous).  The use of Pyrodox shows that you are not
>really interested in "doing it right", so no wander your other stuff
>is so
>bad.  Guess you are the ones I see with the chrome tanned leather on
>and saying "it is just as good".
>
>Either do it right or don't do it.
>
>Tim Austin
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 08 Jun 1998 12:27:43 -0400

good comments--seanbear---it's a way of life and thinking---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 17:31:07 -0400 seanbear <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Just a few regarding doing things together...  My Buckskinning is one
>of the
>reason I got divorced... and that is not bad... <grin>  My ex never
>wanted
>to go with me and never seemed to have the time... Said it was just
>"all
>games, and I didn't need games..."  People, I'm here to tell ya that a
>family that does not do things together isn't going to be around
>along.  I
>met a wonderful lady who LOVES Buckskinnin, and now I am married to
>her.  My
>son has been shooting BP since he was a squirt <8 yrs old> and still
>enjoys
>it.  Vicki and I were married at the Alafia this pasT January in an
>old
>fashioned Celtic Highland ceremony (see
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/1427 for pictures), and
>now my
>son and his fiance want to get married at the next Alafia with a
>Highland
>Ceremony.  He's been bitten by the bug... hehe
>
>I know this is off the subject of the young man and his first BP front
>stuffer, but I wanted to let everyone know that this is a family
>"sport",
>and enjoyed by all.
>
>Addison Miller
>aka Seanbear
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Thursday, June 04, 1998 8:57 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
>
>
>>In a message dated 98-06-03 15:18:25 EDT, you write:
>>
>><< My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur
>trade
>> books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs
>and
>> live the life.  He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his
>> birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting.  I'm
>looking
>> for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks.
>>                             K.Kierst
>>  >>
>>
>>Tell the list where you live and how far you will drive to get to an
>event.
>>Then when we reply with dates and times of any shoot/camp, take your
>son
>and
>>go.  At the event ask for the range officer or booshway and tell them
>you
>>would like some help in learning to shoot your new .40.  I have never
>been
>to
>>a camp that would not get you 5 to 10 people willing to take you by
>the
>hand
>>and lead you thru all you need to know for safe fun shooting and some
>can
>even
>>make cleaning your smokepole fun as well.
>>
>>And well you are cleaning up, saay a little prayer of thanks to the
>grand
>>fathers and spirts for the joy of having a son that wants to do
>something
>with
>>you.  Re-inacting, rendezvous and muzzleloading is a great family
>experiance.
>>If you get the latest issue of Smoke & Fire my daughter and I are
>shown
>>shooting on page 23.
>>
>>Welcome to the wonderful world of living history, and welcome to your
>son.
>>This life style/hobby will die without the interest and participation
>of
>new
>>generations.
>>
>>Your Humble Servant
>>
>>C.T. Oakes
>>
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes
Date: 08 Jun 1998 12:33:19 -0500



For them what's interested in dressing up right fancy so they can go dance a
fandango with the pretty young senoritas.

Lance Grabowski has the remaining inventory of the Old Green River Forge
patterns.  He has in stock The Southwest jacket, Southwest pants, and
Southwest
ladies outfit.  His phone number is 505-471-0011.  I just spoke with him - so
hurry before he runs out.

John...
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 08 Jun 1998 14:39:36 EDT

Right on!!!!  We are Buckskinners/Mountain Persons aren't we?


Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes
Date: 08 Jun 1998 13:51:58 -0500

Thanks John,
Just got off the phone with Lance. I ordered the jacket and the pants.
Price is really fair as well. Lance and I go back to the 1974 Henry's Fork
Rendezvous so it is always fun to talk with him.
YMOS,
YellowFeather

----------
> From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes
> Date: Monday, June 08, 1998 12:33 PM
>
>
>
> For them what's interested in dressing up right fancy so they can go
dance a
> fandango with the pretty young senoritas.
>
> Lance Grabowski has the remaining inventory of the Old Green River Forge
> patterns.  He has in stock The Southwest jacket, Southwest pants, and
> Southwest
> ladies outfit.  His phone number is 505-471-0011.  I just spoke with him
- so
> hurry before he runs out.
>
> John...
> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
> John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hemp
Date: 08 Jun 1998 16:10:17 -0500

At 12:21 AM 6/7/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Hail the list:
>
>Although this URL is regestered to Hemp Textiles
>International the resultant page is for VERIO
>a Pacific Northwest ISP.
>
>Is Hemp Textiles out of business??
>
>Regrads,
>/Ken
>
>
>On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:46:59 EDT, you wrote:
>
>>also check out <http://www.hemptex.com/>www.hemptex.com
>>
>>Todd
>

Try <http://<http://www.hempseed.com/>www.hempseed.com/> a different group but
links to hemp related information.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hemp
Date: 08 Jun 1998 18:42:45 EDT

Try  www.hemptraders.com and check out the fabric swatches.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!
Date: 08 Jun 1998 19:54:52 -0400

> I DON'T CARE WHETHER YOU LIKE THE NMLRA OR NOT
> THEY HAVE GOOD SOLID AND CORRECT INFORMATION AVAILABLE THAT WILL NOT
> STEER A NOVICE WRONG---
>

actually .....NMLRA....can and has stirred many a persom wrong.  Depends on
the area you are talking about...that is my 2cents.

Linda Holley      NMLRA member #5245





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Southwest supplies and clothes
Date: 08 Jun 1998 21:34:11 EDT

try dale harrison at the blanket brigade 610-381-4400, he has lots of nice SW
stuff



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid & Regards to Sean Bear
Date: 08 Jun 1998 21:45:48 EDT

Right on Seanbear

Family Family Family

People may think we're the Hatfields & McCoys, but we just look that way.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Mullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Conflicting info (FONTENELLE)
Date: 08 Jun 1998 21:22:32 +0000

Kevin,

In _The Mountain Men and Fur Trade of the Far West_ , Volume V, page 99,
Alan Trottman states:

    "The effects of his heavy drinking and his failures in the mountains
probably broke his spirit. At thirty-nine years of age, Lucien
Fontenelle died at Bellevue (today Bellevue, Nebraska)
    "Father J.P. DeSmet wrote in 1870:"I attended him (Lucien Fontenelle)
in his last moments either in 1838 or 1839. . . Shortly after his death
I started for the Rocky Mountains."

Bernard DeVoto in _Across the Wide Missouri_,  in Chapter X, states:

    ". . . it seems that he (Fontenelle) died sober at Bellvue in 1840"

DeVoto goes on to state in Chapter X, footnote 12:

    " I have made an exhaustive search for an authoritative statement about
Fontenelle's suicide and have had the formidable help of Mrs. Brenda
Gieseker. Items relating to the settlement of his estate can be found
but nothing concerning his death. He may have killed himself, and Meek
seems to be repeating a story common in the mountains, but if he did
there appears to be no supporting evidence beyond Meek's statement,
which dates it wrong."

This is just a small amount of info but it sounds like both Trottman and
DeVoto lean towrds the dying of natural causes (possibly related to
alcoholism).

Hope this of some assistance.

YMHOS,
David Mullen

--
David Mullen
202 Mesa Verde
Jemez Springs, NM 87025
505.829.3212
email:[e-mail]


[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Hello list. I am new to this and have enjoyed reading the postings, and have
> repilied to a few. I am early in my journey as far as acquiring knowledge is
> concerned and am doing a lot of reading from several sources simultaneously.
> Ran across a conflict from a few different sources regarding one Mr. Fontanell
> (sp). One account i found said he  committed suicide while another said that
> in effect he died fat and happy back in the states. Anyone know where I can
> start my next reading project and find out? Thanks for your patience and your
> info.
>
> Kevin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:MtMan-list:Getting Started in Buckskinning
Date: 08 Jun 1998 21:40:55 -0700

I think the problem with pyro is that it is just more available than
BP.  Almost every gunstore and Walmart,Kmart etc carries it where they
do not carry BP.  BP requires more red tape to sell so when you do find
it it is Expensive.  One store here in Reno carries it, and they want
25$ for 1 pound.  Needless to say I Had to buy Pyrodex or not shoot on
some occasions.  Now I know enough people so that will never happen if I
happen to run out of BP.  And let me throw another log on the fire.
Blackpowder hunting seasons have been made a mockery of by the
introduction of In Line *%##*'n
Rifles.  Pennsylvania Has it Right.  I might not go so far as to promote
only Flinters but definately only Percussion and Roundball for Deer.
I'll go so far as to allow Minie balls for larger game but WHY Scopes
and Rifle Primers and Pellets Of pyro!  Bowhunters use many modern
gadgets but A good, Dedicated bow hunter with a self bow, wood arrows
and all the traditional stuff will bag more game than a guy or gal with
all the modern stuff.  It Just takes more dedication.  And That is what
a BP hunting season is about, Challenge and dedication.  Not developing
new gadgets to work around the Limitations.  Enough Said!




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tobacco
Date: 08 Jun 1998 22:05:30 -0700

Hey I was wonderin If anybody who smokes mullein would clarify as to the
plant they are talking about as discussed previously in Re:tobacco.
Just wonderin if it really is mullein or somethin else.  Plants are
bloomin now so flower descriptions are a good way to determine species.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Conflicting info (FONTENELLE)
Date: 09 Jun 1998 01:07:30 EDT

Thank you, sir. I do appreciate the information and the effort you put into
finding it. I am trying to read all I can, but there are only so many hours in
a day, and I wanted to see if I could access the list. Thanks again.

I geuss the real irony to my situation is that while in grad school I did a
research project on The Hudson's Bay Trading Company, but it took 7 years to
finally hit me that this was something I wanted to pursue further. Anyway, I
am enjoying reading all of the postings. It is comforting to know that there
are folks out there who get all fired up about their passions with just a
little push, kinda like I do at times.

Keep listening to the wind.

Kevin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tobacco
Date: 09 Jun 1998 00:57:41 -0500

Howdy again Chris,
Yes I have smoked mullein. Verbascum phlomoides  it blooms on a long
central stalk and the flowers are yellow to light yellow orange. It has a
soft feel to the leaves. It blooms in late summer to early autumn. If the
road crews have not been overly busy you can find it growing along country
roads.
YellowFeather
----------
> From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
> To: Mtnmanlist <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: Tobacco
> Date: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 12:05 AM
>
> Hey I was wonderin If anybody who smokes mullein would clarify as to the
> plant they are talking about as discussed previously in Re:tobacco.
> Just wonderin if it really is mullein or somethin else.  Plants are
> bloomin now so flower descriptions are a good way to determine species.
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: NRA-Charelton Heston
Date: 09 Jun 1998 03:54:56 -0500

Its 3:30 am and I just saw Mr. Heston on CBS UP TO THE MINUTE live interview
and was rather impressed,His comments on the recent "School Massacres"(his
words) are the result of the way society is raising kids today.He put the
blame squarely where it belongs,with the parents having to little
involvement in kids lives today. If todays Yuppie A**holes paid attention to
what their kids were doing and having problems with,instead of worrying
about Joe Blow and how he can help with "my life" things would be better.
 My daughter is the reason I'm getting into 'skinning again,been out for 15
years(work and moving to the wrong(E.) side of the Mississippi) She saw
something in the newspaper about a rendezvous and wanted to go, so here I am
and I love it!
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:MtMan-list:Getting Started in Buckskinning
Date: 09 Jun 1998 07:52:23 EDT

Modern gadgets on BP rifles, you have just hit upon one of my MAJOR pet
peeves!!!! NMLRA Championship shoots starts next Saturday and I gaurantee you
that on some of those gun, you'll have to look twice to make sure that they
are blackpowder.  I hope the youngin's are dedicated enough, and some of you
old flints too, to keep to the traditional ways.


Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thomas Maines <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:MtMan-list:Getting Started in Buckskinning
Date: 09 Jun 1998 08:26:22 -0700

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Modern gadgets on BP rifles, you have just hit upon one of my MAJOR pet
> peeves!!!! NMLRA Championship shoots starts next Saturday and I gaurantee you
> that on some of those gun, you'll have to look twice to make sure that they
> are blackpowder.  I hope the youngin's are dedicated enough, and some of you
> old flints too, to keep to the traditional ways.
>
> Red Hawk

Red Hawk

I agree with you 100%, if you want to or need to use all the new
gadgets
that are available for BP guns (including the so called modern muzzle
loaders) than get a modern gun and hunt or shoot in modern matches....

It is going to take the National and State Muzzle loading associations
to take a stand against these modern contraptions and bar them from
competition to do away with them.  This is and has been a primitive
sport
up untill now.  The only saving grace is that the competitors have to
use
a patched round ball and the modern muzzle loading rifles don't shoot
them worth a darn.  They have to fast a twist.

Keep muzzle loading primitive!!!!!!1
--

Your Humble Servant,
Tom (Cold Hands) Maines
[e-mail]
http://home.att.net/~tmaines.outback/index.htm

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans
possess over the people of almost every other nation.  ...
Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several
kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public
resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the
people with arms."

James Madison (in federlist paper No. 46)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: NRA-Charelton Heston
Date: 09 Jun 1998 09:45:59 EDT

I concur with you on Mr Heston and I applaud your honesty about the yuppie
parents. Glad to see someone taking a positive step with their kid(s). Makes
me proud to be associated with the group.

While I am "up" has anyone ever run across a guy by the name of Bob Fix ( real
muscular, bald, very knowledgeable) at a 'voo? He is the man that introduced
me to skinnin' and beadin' and such, and I have lost touch him over the years.
Can't find an e-mail address. I f anyone knows I would appreciate the scoop.
E-mail me direct at KP MTN [e-mail].

YMHOS,

Kevin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Pam and Randy Kozak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: please post this on MtMan-List: Traps Wanted
Date: 08 Jun 1998 12:30:53 -0500

My name is Nick

I was wondering if you could post this.

I collect old Newhouse traps and bear traps and I was hoping that if anyone
had some, they would e-mail me.  I have also been thinking bout making my
own  #1 longspring that would be almost exactly like a #1 Newhouse.  If I
ever made a doz or so, maybe someone would want one??????

Nick Kozak
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-list:Getting Started in Buckskinning
Date: 09 Jun 1998 10:09:01 -0400

I have the same pet peave but remember that in the primative valley they
aint legal nor allowed---that is why they purchased the 205 many years
ago so that the primitative guys will have a place and dont have to
socialize with the flatlander yuppies---

WILL THE PERSON THAT POSTED THE ORIGINAL POSTING ON THIS STRING PLEASE
CONTACT ME OFFLINE.    I was in the garage going thru my treasures and am
sure that i have some things that the kid can use and enjoy if he is
getting into the sport--I know that there are several pretty good horns
and a fire kit or two a big stack of hand made turkey calls and I dont
know what else but if he will drop me a note along with his addresss I
will dig out what I have and send it to him at no charge-- need to
recycle that stuff so that a new buckskinner can enjoy the sport the same
as i have for over 40 years---several old timers helped and guided me
when i started and they told me that it was always important to help a
new person starting the sport to promote and keep the mountain man
triditions and way of life continueing---some day he may do the same for
others---I personally dont care for the squabbeling and crap and am here
to say I WILL BE MORE THAN GLAD TO HELP HIM OR GIVE HIM ANY INFORMATION
THAT I HAVE IN MY POSSESSION THAT WILL ASSIST HIM AND HIS PARENT IN
GETTING STARTED.  he can call me or e-mail me i dont care---my
information is at the signature block
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]
E-MAIL ADDRESS:   [e-mail]
On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:52:23 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>Modern gadgets on BP rifles, you have just hit upon one of my MAJOR
>pet
>peeves!!!! NMLRA Championship shoots starts next Saturday and I
>gaurantee you
>that on some of those gun, you'll have to look twice to make sure that
>they
>are blackpowder.  I hope the youngin's are dedicated enough, and some
>of you
>old flints too, to keep to the traditional ways.
>
>
>Red Hawk
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-list:twist aint the problem:
Date: 09 Jun 1998 10:28:19 -0400

I understand the dislikes for the modern types of muzzloaders and have
changed the subject line so that we can keep a new subject---the average
shooter that starts with the new fangled thing that they call a
muzzleloader with the inline ignition and all--- normally is quite
lazy---that is the reason that they dont take the gun out and learn what
and how and all the things about it and come to the conclusions that it
aint the right thing to be at a national match and try to shoot---it is
also a psychological thing that they are using trying to get us
traditional types upset and not do our best---My triditional buffilo gun
with open sights will still shoot 50's at 50 yards and thats good enough
for me

I posted a long article on twist about 2 or three weeks ago you must have
missed it----pure lazyness is the major problem and not being properly
informed  and not taking the time to do something is---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 08:26:22 -0700 Thomas Maines
<[e-mail]> writes:
>[e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> Modern gadgets on BP rifles, you have just hit upon one of my MAJOR
>pet
>> peeves!!!! NMLRA Championship shoots starts next Saturday and I
>gaurantee you
>> that on some of those gun, you'll have to look twice to make sure
>that they
>> are blackpowder.  I hope the youngin's are dedicated enough, and
>some of you
>> old flints too, to keep to the traditional ways.
>>
>> Red Hawk
>
>Red Hawk
>
>I agree with you 100%, if you want to or need to use all the new
>gadgets
>that are available for BP guns (including the so called modern muzzle
>loaders) than get a modern gun and hunt or shoot in modern matches....
>
>It is going to take the National and State Muzzle loading associations
>to take a stand against these modern contraptions and bar them from
>competition to do away with them.  This is and has been a primitive
>sport
>up untill now.  The only saving grace is that the competitors have to
>use
>a patched round ball and the modern muzzle loading rifles don't shoot
>them worth a darn.  They have to fast a twist.
>
>Keep muzzle loading primitive!!!!!!1
>--
>
>Your Humble Servant,
>Tom (Cold Hands) Maines
>[e-mail]
>http://home.att.net/~tmaines.outback/index.htm
>
>"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans
>possess over the people of almost every other nation.  ...
>Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several
>kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public
>resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the
>people with arms."
>
>James Madison (in federlist paper No. 46)
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: please post this on MtMan-List: Traps Wanted
Date: 09 Jun 1998 10:41:34 -0400

nick more power to you in the forgeing process-- i hope it is a
success---i just found a good book at barns and nobel on sale the name is
"the art of blacksmithing"  by alex w bealer---ISBN # 0-7858-0395-5 has
over 500 pictures and lots of good detail information.  its 438 pages
long---they had iot on special for $9.98---- hell of a bargain--- if you
don't have it look and see if you can find it-

will look thru my stash and see if i have any traps that i want to get
rid of and will contact you offline if i do----
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:30:53 -0500 "Pam and Randy Kozak"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>My name is Nick
>
>I was wondering if you could post this.
>
>I collect old Newhouse traps and bear traps and I was hoping that if
>anyone
>had some, they would e-mail me.  I have also been thinking bout making
>my
>own  #1 longspring that would be almost exactly like a #1 Newhouse.
>If I
>ever made a doz or so, maybe someone would want one??????
>
>Nick Kozak
>[e-mail]
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: NMLRA
Date: 09 Jun 1998 11:59:03 -0600 (CST)

Friends,
Please allow me to change the subject line for this string so that the poor
soul who is merely looking for information to get himself and his kid
started in buckskinning doesn't have to listen to shouting matches about
the merits of the NMLRA in the course of seeking that information.
Personally, I don't care what the NMLRA does or doesn't do for it's
members.  Buckskinning and muzzleloading are here to stay, and I'm content
with knowing that.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: NRA-Charelton Heston
Date: 09 Jun 1998 12:35:41 -0500

How soon some people forget! This man is an actor. He reads well! back in
1968 he showed his true colors when he backed the GCA of 68. This man is a
liar. He was on a radio program recently and made an anti gun statement and
then tried to wiggle out of it. Now he wants to be President of NRA. Maybe
that is where he belongs since NRA has sold it's members out anyway. The
Brady II law, that the NRA backed will go into effect this Dec. 1 and the
FBI will be keeping records on ALL gun sales, NOT just handguns. Heston is
all for this. In case your education was week, this behavior by the FBI is
unconstitutional and illegal! I hope Dean will post this as someone needs
to inform our list as to what is going on. Anyone who wants a copy of the
alert I recieved, contact me off line.
Ken YellowFeather

----------
> From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: NRA-Charelton Heston
> Date: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 3:54 AM
>
> Its 3:30 am and I just saw Mr. Heston on CBS UP TO THE MINUTE live
interview
> and was rather impressed,His comments on the recent "School
Massacres"(his
> words) are the result of the way society is raising kids today.He put the
> blame squarely where it belongs,with the parents having to little
> involvement in kids lives today. If todays Yuppie A**holes paid attention
to
> what their kids were doing and having problems with,instead of worrying
> about Joe Blow and how he can help with "my life" things would be better.
>  My daughter is the reason I'm getting into 'skinning again,been out for
15
> years(work and moving to the wrong(E.) side of the Mississippi) She saw
> something in the newspaper about a rendezvous and wanted to go, so here I
am
> and I love it!
> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: hardtack
Date: 09 Jun 1998 14:07:33 -0400

I made a batch of hardtack last night and it turned out pretty good. Now
I see on a web site today that the ingredients in hardtack and
"playdough" are identical (flour, salt & water), so if you want to save
some time just buy some white playdough, roll it out and bake it. Has
anybody ever heard of this? I can't imagine anything being much easier
than mixing flour, salt and water. I would suspect that playdough
contains some sort of preservatrive. Just curious as to what the sage
advice of the MLML would be. And I was hoping that this subject would be
sufficiently silly enough to steer the conversation away from all the
political talk. I am sure theses topics are of importance, I'm just
ready for some new "how to"tuff.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack
Date: 09 Jun 1998 16:36:22 -0600 (CST)

>I made a batch of hardtack last night and it turned out pretty good. Now
>I see on a web site today that the ingredients in hardtack and
>"playdough" are identical (flour, salt & water), so if you want to save
>some time just buy some white playdough, roll it out and bake it.

I can remember when I was a kid (very, very young) that I used to try to
eat playdough.  I can still remember the taste.  BLAAGHH!!  Must have
something to do with the proportions.  It was a bit on the salty side.

Orange hardtack, eh??  There's a marketing angle there somewhere.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack
Date: 09 Jun 1998 17:19:59 -0500

Did your web site say Playdough or homemade equivilent of Playdough was
flour, salt and water?  I always thought it smelled more like storebought
pound cake--or carp bait.  However, if anyone bakes up a batch of Playdough
and eats some, it will prove H.L.Menken was right.  I am all for silly,
however.  My wife says that based on behavior alone, I could get into movies
for half price.  After all buckskinners are just like boyscouts except that
we don't have responsible adult supervision.
Big Zwey

-----Original Message-----
Cc: history mailing list <[e-mail]>


>I made a batch of hardtack last night and it turned out pretty good. Now
>I see on a web site today that the ingredients in hardtack and
>"playdough" are identical (flour, salt & water), so if you want to save
>some time just buy some white playdough, roll it out and bake it. Has
>anybody ever heard of this? I can't imagine anything being much easier
>than mixing flour, salt and water. I would suspect that playdough
>contains some sort of preservatrive. Just curious as to what the sage
>advice of the MLML would be. And I was hoping that this subject would be
>sufficiently silly enough to steer the conversation away from all the
>political talk. I am sure theses topics are of importance, I'm just
>ready for some new "how to"tuff.
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes..
Date: 09 Jun 1998 15:38:51 +0000

Get an old jacket that fits you, is about the same type (short) and tear
it up to use for a pattern.  You can't really mess up using leather.  If
it is too big you can cut some more out and if too small, jump some more
in.  Do it halfway right and you can't even tell it when you do.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY

mxhbc wrote:
>>Call James "Horsefly" Halter in Henrietta, Texas.  He used to make the
>>buckskinner trade circuit and sold lots of southwestern style clothes.
He
>>services the gunfighters these days but he is still a damn fine tailor
and
>>can probably make whatever you want.  Some of his clothes were seen in
the
>>movie Tombstone.  Be forewarned, he is sometimes as cranky as a cold
Model T
>>Ford.  Ask about his boots, too.
>>Lanney Ratcliff
>>[e-mail]
>
>Horsefly is a good source for information and ideas, and he's an
excellent
>period tailor, but unless he's is willing to reproduce his patterns for
>sale, I think we're back at square one.  I could buy what I need from
>Horsefly, which I have done, but I too would like to have a New Mexican
>jacket made by my own hands.  I have the skins, but not the patterns.
>
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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>Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:09:37 -0600 (CST)
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>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes
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>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please post this on MtMan-List: Traps Wanted
Date: 09 Jun 1998 17:29:14 -0700

Nick,

Is a #1 Newhouse the type used for beaver?  If so, I'd be interested.  Let me
know if you do make 'em.

Medicine Bear


> My name is Nick
>
> I was wondering if you could post this.
>
> I collect old Newhouse traps and bear traps and I was hoping that if anyone
> had some, they would e-mail me.  I have also been thinking bout making my
> own  #1 longspring that would be almost exactly like a #1 Newhouse.  If I
> ever made a doz or so, maybe someone would want one??????
>
> Nick Kozak
> [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lodges
Date: 09 Jun 1998 20:28:50 EDT

no go sorry but at roov we try to stick with what was around at the time and
green wall tent  will not make. try a small piece of white cavaus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw:
Date: 09 Jun 1998 21:43:09 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BD93EF.982B8E20
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


-----Original Message-----


I was responding to the line "I'm lookin to buy a jacket or get real =
detailed plans..."   Horsefly isn't likely to let go of one of his =
patterns, but he will make you a damn fine jacket.
Lanney Ratcliff =20

------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BD93EF.982B8E20
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>Lanney Ratcliff <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: </B><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>Dat=
e:=20
</B>Tuesday, June 09, 1998 9:39 PM<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I was responding to the line =
"I'm lookin to=20
buy a jacket or get real detailed plans..."   Horsefly =
isn't=20
likely to let go of one of his patterns, but he will make you a damn =
fine=20
jacket.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Lanney Ratcliff =20
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BD93EF.982B8E20--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Traps Wanted
Date: 09 Jun 1998 21:09:56 -0700

Just to clarify, the book "The Art of Blacksmithing " was written by
Alexander G. Weygers.  A better deal than buying The Art of
Blacksmithing is to get all of Weygers books in one in a compilation
called " The Complete Modern Blacksmith" ISBN
0-89815-896-6.
Chris Sega



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Katona" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes..
Date: 09 Jun 1998 20:54:10 +0000

The best part is that all of the research says that they were "ill
fitting."
You are not suppose to look like you are out of a Willie Nelson
movie, but a trapper that wintered in Taos or Santa Fe.
Mike



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Traps Wanted
Date: 10 Jun 1998 00:33:30 -0400

CRIS YOU WILL NOTE THAT THE BOOK THAT I PICKED UP HAS A DIFFERENT ISBN
NUMBER AND YES IT IS BY A DIFFERENT AUTHOR---the other book you speak of
is quite good ---it;s i just found a good bargan, I should have also
quoted the one you are speaking of---the complete data for the book i was
speaking of is:

The art of blacksmithing
author:   Alex w.Bealer
ISBN:  0-7858-0395-5
by castle books  copyright 1976 first edition ---second revised edition
1969
library of congress number TT220.B35 1976  682   76-4546
the book is dedicated to James f. Whitley (1873-1972)
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:09:56 -0700 Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Just to clarify, the book "The Art of Blacksmithing " was written by
>Alexander G. Weygers.  A better deal than buying The Art of
>Blacksmithing is to get all of Weygers books in one in a compilation
>called " The Complete Modern Blacksmith" ISBN
>0-89815-896-6.
>Chris Sega
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Traps Wanted
Date: 10 Jun 1998 04:22:23 -0500

On 1998-06-09 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; U)
   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
   >Sender: [e-mail]
   >Precedence: bulk
   >Status:
   >Just to clarify, the book "The Art of Blacksmithing " was written by
   >Alexander G. Weygers.  A better deal than buying The Art of
   >Blacksmithing is to get all of Weygers books in one in a compilation
   >called " The Complete Modern Blacksmith" ISBN
   >0-89815-896-6.
   >Chris Sega
Chris, I have "The Art of Blacksmithing" in front of me. It was written by
ALEX BEALER and the normal retail price from Cntaur Forge or Larson Books is
$9.95, I just got a replacement copy after my old one disapeared. I also
have Weygers books(badly beaten up) and I do not think they are better, just
equally as important to me.





Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kirsten Smith and Tania Dopler <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack
Date: 10 Jun 1998 10:19:24 -0400

Interesting that someone is trying to make thier own hardtack.  I was
born and raised in Newfoundland and there, hardtack is part of the local
diet and is produced by a company there on the island.  The hard tack is
soaked overnight then cooked with salt fish to make fishermans brewis.
Newfies love the stuff,  I also find the hard bread is nice for snacking.
 The company there in Nfld.  also produces a variety called sweet
bread... which is more for snacking or eating as is.  Anyway, wherever
you find a large community of Newfies you will find a store that sells
this hard tack... i am sure it tastes much better than Play-doh!  It
would never have occured to me to try to make hard tack myself... what is
the proceedure?

YMHS
Hawk Dancing



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: MtMan-List: [e-mail] (kent klein): Tan/alum
Date: 09 Jun 1998 19:36:14 -0700

--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>


Hello the camp.....

I have been in contact with Kent Klein regarding his tanning with alum.
Below (I hope)  is a reply to my inquiry about his book.  Hope you find
it of use.

John Funk

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    "Tan Your Hide the Alum Way"  explains in simple detail the
process of tanning with aluminum sulfate (Alum).  This tan, which has
been used since the Egyptians, is a relatively easy method of tanning
animal and fur bearing hides with hair or fur on or off.  The book cost
is Ten dollars postpaid. To order, contact: Kent Klein   1537 West 4920
South, Taylorsville, Utah  84123  e-mail @ [e-mail]

    Thank you for your help with putting this on the internet.  Will
you please let me know where I may find this once you get it posted.

    Best regards,
    Kent Klein
--------- End forwarded message ----------

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: hardtack
Date: 10 Jun 1998 11:20:16 -0400

It's pretty simple, just mix about 2 cups of flour and =BD tbs. of salt
with enough water to make a stiff dough. Roll it out  thin on a cookie
sheet, Score it into squares ( about 2" x 2") and poke some holes in =
it.
Bake it at 400 degrees for about 45 minutes until it is lightly browned
and there you have it.

Bon Appetit

Kirk Mill

    -----Original Message-----
    From:    Kirsten Smith and Tania Dopler [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Wednesday, June 10, 1998 10:19 AM
    To:    [e-mail]
    Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: hardtack

    Interesting that someone is trying to make thier own hardtack.
I was=20
    born and raised in Newfoundland and there, hardtack is part of
the local=20
    diet and is produced by a company there on the island.  The hard
tack is=20
    soaked overnight then cooked with salt fish to make fishermans
brewis. =20
    Newfies love the stuff,  I also find the hard bread is nice for
snacking.=20
     The company there in Nfld.  also produces a variety called
sweet=20
    bread... which is more for snacking or eating as is.  Anyway,
wherever=20
    you find a large community of Newfies you will find a store that
sells=20
    this hard tack... i am sure it tastes much better than Play-doh!
It=20
    would never have occured to me to try to make hard tack
myself... what is=20
    the proceedure?

    YMHS
    Hawk Dancing



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Despain <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Priming Horns
Date: 10 Jun 1998 10:35:57 -0400

Just bought my first flinter and been looking for a priming horn. But I
can't find anyone in my region (Oklahoma) who deals in any kind of
buckskinning matter.  So I thought I'd put out a message here and see if
anyone had a priming horn that was just collecting dust and would like
to give it a new home (for a reasonable price that is). Anyone
interested drop me a note here or at my own e-mail.

Thanks,

Matt Despain
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack
Date: 10 Jun 1998 08:34:52 -0700

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I believe that salt was commonly ommited as it
draws moisture from the air.
When I used to attend the Fort Vancouver Re-enactment, we were given all
the hard tack that we wanted, made fresh in the forts brick ovens, I don't
recall them being the least bit salty, infact very bland and kept for
years.          Longtrail
Ps.  Can anyone tell me how to contact the man mentioned a while back, Gary
Smith, aka Sour Dough?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes..
Date: 10 Jun 1998 11:15:50 -0600 (CST)

>The best part is that all of the research says that they were "ill
>fitting." . . .
>Mike

I guarantee that making it myself, it *will* be ill fitting.  :-)

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Randal Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hardtack
Date: 10 Jun 1998 12:46:30 -0400

This is my Hardtack recipe, from the New Ulm Militia(1863)  Mix 3 cups
milk, 2 tblspoons sugar, 1 tblspoon salt, 8 cups flour, 4 tblspoons
shortening- Roll out 1/2" thick- cut 3" x 3" squares- punch holes (wooden=

spoon handle) like a soda cracker- Bake at 400 dg for 35 minutes (to
taste).  I use raw ,or butter milk, raw sugar, 3cups whole wheat/5 cups
white flour.  Bake it less for ease of eating, but it won't last as long.=
  =

      Enjoy, Hardtack  #1424



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ron Valley <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: hard tack recipie
Date: 10 Jun 1998 14:29:37 -0400


>From the web:


Hardtack Recipe


5 Cups Flour (unbleached)
     1 Tablespoon Baking Powder
     1 Tablespoon Salt
     1-1 1/4 cups Water
     Preheated Oven to 450

In a bowl, combine the ingredients to form a stiff, but not dry dough. The
dough should be pliable, but not stick a lot to your
hands.

Take this mound of dough, and flatten it out onto a greased cookie sheet
(the ones with a small lip around the edge...like a real
shallow pan...), and roll the dough into a flat sheet aprx. 1/2 inch thick.

Using a breadknife, divide the dough into 3x3 squares. taking a 10-penny
nail, put a 3x3 matrix of holes into the surface of the
dough, all the way thru, at even intervals

Bake in the oven for aprx 20 Min., till lightly browned. Take out and let
cool.

Do this the day before your go on the field, and your will have enough tack
to fill your haversack. It will be somewhat soft on
Saturday morning, but, by Sunday, you should soak it in your coffee before
eating, else you will have a hard time chewing.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sign Language book
Date: 10 Jun 1998 16:57:16 -0500

Washtahay-
    I just picked up a copy of "The Indian Sign Language" by W. P. Clark .
Bison Books edition, paperback.  New, cost me $10 american.  If anyone
needs it they can have it for the same, I just grabbed it due to the recent
topic.
    Contact me off list.
LongWalker c. du B



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack
Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:02:51 -0700

Longtrail wrote:
>
> Perhaps I am mistaken, but I believe that salt was commonly ommited as > it draws moisture from the air.

You aren't mistaken.  Some was made with salt and some without.  The
recipie I got at Ft. Vancouver was whole wheat flour, add water to make
a paste, roll out, cut into squares, poke some holes in it, and bake
until hard.  I have some that I cooked without salt 3 or 4 years ago.
It's stored in a cloth bag in wet Oregon, and it's still fine and hasn't
wicked any moisture.
            D. N.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Barry Powell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [e-mail] (kent klein): Tan/alum
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:29:01 -0500

   Don't spend any money learning to tan with alum, I'll tell you right now.
I used to tan alot with alum and learned how from a book called "Back to
basics" published by reader's digest back during the big "fireside" book
craze, when everyone wanted to do things the "traditional" way.

1. Flesh the hide very well, removing all of the inner membrane.

2. Remove the hair at this time with lye or any of the many methods
available.(I used hardwood ashes myself)

3. In a large container, mix 10 gallons of water, 10 pounds of salt, and 2
pounds of alum.

4. Throw in the hide, turning it and stirring it at least twice a day until
all parts are  coated. Do this for about 5 days for a deer hide, less time
for smaller hides.

5. Dry the hide by hanging it, then comes the fun part. Rub the hide with
warm vegatable oil, then begin to soften it by pulling it around a post or
beam, ( or have your wife chew it for you ) Softening the hide is
accomplished by just manipulating the hide until it is flexable, you just
have to find a method that works for you. Repeat the oiling several times
during this process ( and anytime during the life of the hide) to help
soften the hide.

I have used this method for hair on and hair off methods with good luck on
both. The hide will be a light color but can be smoked to make it waterproof
and change the color. The alum bath can be used several times until it
begins to get rancid.

I hope this helps
B.Powell




At 07:36 PM 6/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
>From: [e-mail] (kent klein)
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Tan/alum
>Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 19:26:02 EDT
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>
>
>Hello the camp.....
>
>I have been in contact with Kent Klein regarding his tanning with alum.
>Below (I hope)  is a reply to my inquiry about his book.  Hope you find
>it of use.
>
>John Funk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Prairie forge
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:39:26 -0700

I have had an interesting string of chat about a primitive or mountain
man forge on the ABANA mail group.  Lots of good Ideas but no historical
facts on the types of equipment used by Smith and others who used
blacksmithing on the frontier. The bare minimum needed is a set of
bellows hammer and tongs.  But I'm curious about what they brought, what
they omitted and any special, packable tools a brigade might carry.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hard tack recipie
Date: 10 Jun 1998 21:20:26 -0700



Ron Valley wrote:

> >From the web:
>
> Hardtack Recipe
>
> 5 Cups Flour (unbleached)
>      1 Tablespoon Baking Powder

Just a note, I have heard that Baking powder and Soda were not commercially
available until around 1850. Although if it improves flavor, no one else will
know.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Southwest supplies and clothing
Date: 10 Jun 1998 21:30:52 -0700

Does somebody have an address, phone or organization for James Horsefly
Halter?
Thanks
Chris Sega



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: seanbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Priming Horns
Date: 11 Jun 1998 00:05:52 -0400

Go the the www search engine, adn type in BUCKSKINNING, RONNYVOUS, etc....
you'd be surprized the number of sites and links to suppliers ;)

Sean
-----Original Message-----


>Just bought my first flinter and been looking for a priming horn. But I
>can't find anyone in my region (Oklahoma) who deals in any kind of
>buckskinning matter.  So I thought I'd put out a message here and see if
>anyone had a priming horn that was just collecting dust and would like
>to give it a new home (for a reasonable price that is). Anyone
>interested drop me a note here or at my own e-mail.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Matt Despain
>[e-mail]
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Southwest supplies and clothing
Date: 11 Jun 1998 06:50:30 -0500 (CDT)

>Does somebody have an address, phone or organization for James Horsefly
>Halter?
>Thanks
>Chris Sega
>
James Halter
Red River Trading Company
107 South Bridge Street
Henrietta, Texas 76365
940 538-5301  Fax [phone]
Paul W. Jones
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Priming Horns
Date: 11 Jun 1998 06:51:25 -0500

You will have precious little luck with "ronnyvous" or "ronnyvoo" or "rondy"
or "rondyvoo" et al.  You will have more luck with "rendezvous".
Big Zwey
-----Original Message-----


>Go the the www search engine, adn type in BUCKSKINNING, RONNYVOUS, etc....
>you'd be surprized the number of sites and links to suppliers ;)
>
>Sean
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Matt Despain <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 3:03 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Priming Horns
>
>
>>Just bought my first flinter and been looking for a priming horn. But I
>>can't find anyone in my region (Oklahoma) who deals in any kind of
>>buckskinning matter.  So I thought I'd put out a message here and see if
>>anyone had a priming horn that was just collecting dust and would like
>>to give it a new home (for a reasonable price that is). Anyone
>>interested drop me a note here or at my own e-mail.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Matt Despain
>>[e-mail]
>>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prairie forge
Date: 11 Jun 1998 08:30:44 -0600 (CST)

>I have had an interesting string of chat about a primitive or mountain
>man forge on the ABANA mail group.  Lots of good Ideas but no historical
>facts on the types of equipment used by Smith and others who used
>blacksmithing on the frontier. The bare minimum needed is a set of
>bellows hammer and tongs.  But I'm curious about what they brought, what
>they omitted and any special, packable tools a brigade might carry.



Stump anvils would have been carried.  They are small anvils, and can be
held in one hand.  They have an integrated spike on the bottom for driving
into a stump to hold it in place. Stump anvils were common since the Am.
Revolution (see Neumann and Kravic, _Collector's Encycl. of the Am
Revolution, p. 41)  I have one which a friend who makes them gave me just
last week.  For field blacksmithing, or just cold shaping of metal gear, it
was and is an essential tool.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hard tack recipie
Date: 11 Jun 1998 09:43:22 -0500

Chris Sega wrote:

> Just a note, I have heard that Baking powder and Soda were not commercially
> available until around 1850.

Good point, but I think they were known by different names.  Webster's
Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary dates the earliest use of the terms
"baking powder" to 1850 and "baking soda" to 1881, and "bicarbonate of
soda" to 1887.  I was surprised that "baking powder" predated "baking
soda" because baking powder contains baking soda.

However the term "soda" which means sodium carbonate or sodium
bicarbonate dates back to 1558.  Also the term "soda biscuit" dates back
to 1830 and soda cracker also to 1830. Furthermore, a soda cracker is a
cracker leavened with bicarbonate of soda and cream of tartar, which are
the active ingredients of baking powder.  "Cream of tartar" dates back
to 1662.  So they used soda and cream of tartar.

The purpose of both baking soda and baking powder are for leavening - to
cause the dough to rise, making it lighter and porous.  Baking soda is
used in recepies that have some other acid-bearing ingredient such as
buttermilk.  Baking powder has the acid chemical cream of tartar
included with baking soda.  I think the soda would add a little
saltiness, but it is not intended for flavoring.

My impression of the purpose of hard tack was that it was a convenient
way to carry flour.  The hard product was more difficult for weevils and
moisture to get.  If that is true, it wouldn't need soda.  To be eaten,
it was put into soup or stew rather than chewed.

Iron Burner



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: New $1 coin
Date: 11 Jun 1998 11:32:09 -0600 (CST)

The US Treasury Dept. just announced that a new gold-colored dollar coin
will be minted for circulation beginning in 2000.  The image of Sacagjawea
will adorn the face of the coin.

Sounds like good news to me.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 11 Jun 1998 13:17:41 -0600

I haven't been following this thread really closely, so excuse me if I'm
wrong, but it seems that the responses have been focussed on getting the
right gun, & starting the kids shooting.  I don't have a gun (for now). I
still have fun, but I see a lot of non-shooters (mostly women, like me)
sitting around the campfire just waiting for the shooters to come back. You
_can_ be a buckskinner/fur trade reeenactor & have fun _without_ a gun!! And
there's so much more to it than shooting-- we're almost doing a disservice
to the kids & womenfolk if we give them the impression this great hobby is
mostly about muzzleloading.

Tell the kids the great stories of the fur trade, the fascinating
adventures, the stuff that's far more interesting (& incredible!) than
television. Tell them short stories, like how an Orkney girl worked for the
HBC for almost a year, disguised as a man, until she 'blew her cover' by
giving birth. Tell them long stories, like how David Thompson was recruited
by the HBC when he graduated from a school for paupers because he'd been
taught to use a sextant, how he tried to be a famous explorer with the HBC,
and finally joined the North West Company and solved their thorniest problem.

Get the kids started on period skills, like fire-lighting, beadwork (even
3-year-olds can string beads), and fingerweaving. Give them period toys,
like stick horses, tops, and tin whistles. Teach them historic games, like
checkers, dominoes, & the 'stick game'. There's so much more to this than
shooting! Shooting's fun too, of course, but it's not everyone's cup of
tea-- it's a pity that so many non-shooters feel excluded when there's no
need for them to be.

Believe it or not, not everyone in the fur trade knew how to shoot! At the
North West Company's Rocky Mountain House in April, 1811, Alexander Henry
the Younger was getting prepared for a possible attack by the Fall Indians.
He had 24 men; before he began trading, 18 were armed with guns, and placed
in various strategic positions, and 6 were "armed with Clubs, knives,
Pokers, &c. to them I gave no guns, as I well knew they were ignorant how to
handle them and the Indians might wrench them from them, with the greatest
ease, upon the first disturbance." (Gough, 558) In 1793, Nor'wester John
Macdonnell noted that "The crews of the canoes seldom have any arms [i.e.
guns] of their own." (Gates, 90). William Tomison left 8 men at the HBC's
Buckingham House post in the spring of 1795, and only 2 of them could fire a
gun (Johnson, xxvii). There are also many examples of every man in a fort or
in a brigade being armed in preparation for attack, but I chose these
examples to show that the non-shooter can be historically accurate too!
(BTW, I can count the number of historic examples I've found of _women_
shooting guns on the fingers of one hand.)

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prairie forge-Stump Anvils
Date: 11 Jun 1998 18:09:03 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-11 10:03:48 EDT, you write:

<< I have one which a friend who makes them ...>>

Is your friend interested in selling any stump anvils. I'm sure there are
others on the list besides me who may be interested in them.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prairie forge-Stump Anvils
Date: 11 Jun 1998 17:37:26 -0600

Jas Townsend & Sons sells some stump anvils. You can find them at:
www.jastown.com




Ron's Idaho Pages
<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/>
Email <[e-mail]>

     \|/
     / \
   /     \
 /    0   \ Lonewolf

----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prairie forge-Stump Anvils
> Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 4:09 PM
>
> In a message dated 98-06-11 10:03:48 EDT, you write:
>
> << I have one which a friend who makes them ...>>
>
> Is your friend interested in selling any stump anvils. I'm sure there are
> others on the list besides me who may be interested in them.
>
> Ghosting Wolf
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: (fwd) review of Gardner and Simmons. _The Mexican War Correspondence
Date: 11 Jun 1998 18:50:30 -0600 (CST)

I think the book reviewed below, which I forwarded from the H-WEST
listserv, should be of interest to those of us interested in Fur Trade
history.  Although the book deals with the post rendezvous period, it is
still of interest to many or most people who read this list.  Mark Gardner
is a long-time fur trade era historian as well as an expert on Mexican War
era personalities.  Of course, Marc Simmons is the foremost expert on the
Santa Fe Trade, which during its early years operated concurrently with the
Rendezvous era.  Indeed, many names associated with the RM fur trade also
led wagon trains to Santa Fe during the freighting season.  Carson,
Beckwourth, the Bents, Fitzpatrick, Young, and many others worked the Santa
Fe Trail as hunters, merchants, and guides.  Carson's first foray into the
west was as a runaway with a wagon caravan out of Franklin, MO bound for
Santa Fe.  This book should be part of any fur trade library as it
addresses the kind of life that attracted trappers after 1840.  I don't
want to brag, but I do have an autographed copy.  Gardner and Simmons are
both good friends of mine.  Enjoy the review.

HBC
>
>
>H-NET BOOK REVIEW
>Published by [e-mail] (June, 1998)
>
>Richard Smith Elliott.  _The Mexican War Correspondence of Richard
>Smith Elliott_.  Edited and annotated by Mark L. Gardner and Marc
>Simmons; American Exploration and Travel Series Volume 76.  Norman
>and London:  University of Oklahoma Press, 1997.  xi + 292 pp.
>Illustrations, maps, bibliographic references, and index.  $29.95
>(cloth), ISBN 0-8061-2951-4.
>
>Reviewed for H-LatAm by Hans Vogel <[e-mail]>,
>Leiden University
>
>                    "Our Man in Santa Fe"
>
>One of the most pleasant and interesting ways to study the past is
>the reading of so-called ego documents:  letters, memoirs, diaries
>and other writings left by the very witnesses of events.  When
>history became an academic discipline in the nineteenth century,
>students were taught quite extensively how to edit documents, since
>the editing of manuscript sources was then considered to be a vital
>public task of the historian.  Though today at many universities the
>editing of sources is still taught at some point in the curriculum,
>it is quite seldom a required course.  The modern historian often
>believes his field is a "social science," where the methods,
>techniques and terminology of our anthropologist and sociologist
>cousins play a crucial role.  Hence the daily bombardment in
>conferences, corridors, learned articles and monographs, with the
>depressing ordnance of representation, subalternness, otherness,
>identity, ethnicity, engendering, construction and so on and so
>forth.  It would seem that, in their urge to interpret and to be
>"scientific," many academic historians have strayed quite far from
>what their discipline once was, which is only natural because things
>change over time.  The average consumer of history, the reader,
>however, retains a preference for simple, straightforward, artisanal
>historical work.
>
>Every so now and then, one encounters a sample of "old-fashioned"
>history, and the term is not meant to imply any kind of
>condescension.  At any rate, this old-fashioned history today seems
>to be concentrated at the local level, especially in what is
>sometimes called in centralized European countries, the provinces.
>The phenomenon is a universal one:  today, there are so many history
>graduates, and their ranks swell year by year with so many thousands
>of newcomers, that there is simply not enough room for them in
>education.  Yet while living away from the academic centers and
>while mostly making a living in any field but history, these
>highly-trained individuals often retain a deep interest in history,
>for such is the nature of historians.  The many regional and local
>historical associations (in the United States and in many Western
>European Countries) would never be able to survive if it were not
>for the participation of countless history graduates.  As a matter
>of fact, local history is a booming industry, and thank God it
>exists, for without it, we would all be suffocating in the
>terrifying straitjacket of "academic correctness!"
>
>Such is in broad strokes the context in which Gardner and
>Simmons--both independent historians--have collected, edited and
>annotated the letters written by lieutenant Richard Smith Elliott
>and printed in the _Reveille_, a St. Louis paper published from 1844
>to 1850.  The _Reveille_ presented itself as a "light and agreeable
>news sheet," and was published in both a daily and a weekly edition,
>the latter containing a selection of the "week's news, gossip, verse
>and light fiction."  Elliott was one of about a thousand Missouri
>volunteers who enlisted for the war with Mexico in the Spring of
>1846.  Elliott's unit, the Laclede Rangers (named in honor of the
>founder of St. Louis), was one of a hundred mounted riflemen--or
>light cavalry, in generic terms.  After having elected its officers,
>the Laclede Rangers left for Fort Leavenworth, from where they were
>to depart for New Mexico under the command of General Kearny, of
>whose Army of the West they formed a part.  After some six weeks,
>the expedition had reached and occupied Santa Fe.  Lt.  Elliott was
>to stay there for the rest of his one-year enlistment, until June of
>1847.  During this year, he kept a diary -- which, unfortunately,
>has been lost--and wrote letters for the _Reveille_.  The latter
>were published under the pseudonym of John Brown.  It has never been
>easy, even for an officer, to pursue interests beyond the strictly
>military, especially when on campaign.  As Elliott put it, "every
>man in the company, from Captain down, is kept busily employed--so
>much so, that I find the keeping of a diary, even with brief notes,
>quite an interference with other calls"  (p. 50).  Even so, the
>letters are lively and give an interesting perspective on campaign
>and garrison life.  If anything, the overall conclusion to be drawn
>is that the daily life of a soldier was pretty similar everywhere in
>the nineteenth century.  Elliott's letters are not that different
>from what European colleagues of his have written.
>
>Like soldiers everywhere and in all ages, Elliott was especially
>proud of his own unit, noting with satisfaction that "not one of our
>men has been drunk, or deserved a reprimand, since we have been on
>the move" (p. 23).  After all, cooks and mechanics are often as
>proud of their company as the men in guard regiments.  Like his
>colleagues everywhere and in all ages, at the beginning of the
>campaign, before any shot had been fired in anger, and before
>disease and fatigue had done their nasty work, Elliott was
>enthralled by the "poetry of war" while being on guard at Fort
>Leavenworth (p. 29).  A few months later he exclaimed " oh! the
>romance, the poetry of war!  whither have ye fled!" (p. 94).  At
>that time, scurvy, military fevers, diarrhea and other scourges were
>taking a heavy toll among the soldiers.  Food was monotonous and
>generally inferior, payments were months in arrears, prices were
>high, and diversions few and far between.  Small wonder that at
>Santa Fe, most men devoted themselves to liquor and cards:  "the
>gambling 'hells' are quite numerous here now, and some of them open
>the live-long night" (p.  187), bringing Elliott to the sad
>conclusion that "we have actually, as to morals and manners, become
>contemptible in the eyes of this most contemptible of all
>people--the Mexicans!" (p. 188).  The American soldiers looked
>filthy, they lived in awful quarters, often not much better than
>pigsties:  "in truth, the most wretchedly dirty and filthy men I
>have ever seen are among the Missouri 'free and independent'
>volunteers!" (pp.  173-74).  Discipline was so lax that officers
>could not do very much to improve this condition.
>
>For the Latin Americanist, this volume holds an occasional
>interesting surprise.  It is, of course, widely known that the
>military in Latin American countries have long had a marked
>propensity for organizing secret groups either for their own
>advancement or with the purpose of reforming society.  Most officers
>of the Independence armies were freemasons.  One is also reminded of
>the positivist groups in the late nineteenth-century Brazilian army
>and of the GOU, led by Peron in the1940s.  Apparently, something
>similar was afoot in the Army of the West, where Elliott was among
>the founders of a "Brotherhood of the E.S.T.D., a secret association
>for the promotion of morals and social intercourse ... with a
>promise of indefinite extension" (p. 192).  Elliott was clearly
>hoping this old boy network of soon-to-be veterans could be
>beneficial both to himself and to his state:  the E.S.T.D. society
>in St. Louis would doubtless soon "be the heart of a brotherhood
>whose ramifications will extend to all parts of the State of
>Missouri" (p. 194).  Apparently, there was less of a difference
>between nineteenth-century U.S. soldiers and their Latin American
>counterparts than many North Americans would today be prepared to
>believe.
>
>Elliott and his colleagues had ample opportunity to engage in
>extracurricular activity, for there was actually hardly any fighting
>to be done.  Apart from a few actions, such as the punishment of the
>village of Taos for murdering some Americans and some skirmishes
>with Indians, and apart from a few forays into Mexican territory,
>the Army of the West did comparatively little fighting.  Of course,
>the numbers involved and the distance from the centers of population
>in Mexico and the United States--given the nineteenth-century nature
>of war--were the determining factor.  The real action was going on
>elsewhere.
>
>The letters by Elliott are a good read and provide an insight into
>the mind of a nineteenth-century American living in the expanding
>frontier region.  No doubt there is little here that was not already
>known, nor is our appreciation of mid-nineteenth-century military
>affairs greatly altered by this volume of war correspondence.  Yet
>the book is attractive for several reasons, not the least of which
>is the meticulous care the editors have taken to provide relevant
>and sober notes.  The publisher has put out an attractive volume
>with slightly off-white paper and a pleasant type-face.  As I
>suggested at the beginning, this volume is a fine example of good,
>old-fashioned, solid, artisanal work, and all the more refreshing
>for the candid limits of its pretensions.  I enjoyed it.
>
>     Copyright (c) 1998 by H-Net, all rights reserved.  This work
>     may be copied for non-profit educational use if proper credit
>     is given to the author and the list.  For other permission,
>     please contact [e-mail].
>

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Mullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New $1 coin
Date: 11 Jun 1998 18:18:33 +0000

Henry,

Actually it will carry the likeness of an Indian woman, as there is no
known likeness of Sacagjawea.

David

Henry B. Crawford wrote:
>
> The US Treasury Dept. just announced that a new gold-colored dollar coin
> will be minted for circulation beginning in 2000.  The image of Sacagjawea
> will adorn the face of the coin.
>
> Sounds like good news to me.
>
> HBC
>
> *****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

--
David Mullen
202 Mesa Verde
Jemez Springs, NM 87025
505.829.3212
email:[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes..
Date: 11 Jun 1998 18:12:44 +0000

I'm guessing you can do a pretty good job.  Maybe it won't look like
Brooks Brothers, but it isn't supposed to.  But, you can make a nice looking
one that won't look like a sack coat.  I know, cause I just finished a knee
length one without a pattern and I don't think it looks all that bad.
I'll be proud to wear it any way it looks.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY

mxhbc wrote:
>>The best part is that all of the research says that they were "ill
>>fitting." . . .
>>Mike
>
>I guarantee that making it myself, it *will* be ill fitting.  :-)
>
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
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>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Southwest supplies and clothes..
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>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hardtack
Date: 11 Jun 1998 07:03:19 -0700

Randy makes GOOD hard tack.  I've had some of it.  Goes well with stew,
coffee, or whatever.

Randy,  Hope alls well,  John Funk

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 11 Jun 1998 22:23:37 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-11 18:48:22 EDT, you write:

<< [e-mail] >>
thanks for the input theres nothin better than comind back to a fire and a
worm meal much apreciated by a shooter. im into weaving and shooting and
cooking and just plaine being there. i have yet to fire a shot at a rondevous
im so busy making stuff forged sundries that i dont have time. men if your out
there dont sell these camp followers short. they were as important as gun
powder maby more. we men me included need to get humble. ive injoyed the hard
tak  that i made for the first time in my 54yrs having heard about all my life
didnt know from beans how to make it. 40 miles a day on backon an beans. a
book i read when i was a kid had  the resapy cant remember it or how to spell
it. keep them resapys coming camp.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not
Date: 11 Jun 1998 18:34:29 -0600 (CST)

>I don't have a gun (for now). I
>still have fun, but I see a lot of non-shooters (mostly women, like me)
>sitting around the campfire just waiting for the shooters to come back. You
>_can_ be a buckskinner/fur trade reeenactor & have fun _without_ a gun!! And
>there's so much more to it than shooting-- we're almost doing a disservice
>to the kids & womenfolk if we give them the impression this great hobby is
>mostly about muzzleloading.  .  .

Well said, and right on the mark, as usual.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prairie forge-Stump Anvils
Date: 12 Jun 1998 04:10:31 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-11 18:48:34 EDT, you write:

<< Is your friend interested in selling any stump anvils. I'm sure there are
 others on the list besides me who may be interested in them.
  >>

I understand Jas. Townsend has them  -- 8 lbs, $80.  The report I had on them
is they're cast iron.
NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New $1 coin
Date: 12 Jun 1998 08:34:53 -0600 (CST)

>Henry,
>
>Actually it will carry the likeness of an Indian woman, as there is no
>known likeness of Sacagjawea.
>
>David

Yeah, that sounds 'bout right.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 12 Jun 1998 11:54:54 EDT

someone on the list mentioned the use of MACS13, and i recall them saying its
also at NAPA stores. i have located a product at a NAPA store (called NAPA
Number 13, stock number 1300), and wanted to verify that it is actually a
radiator flush / rust inhibitor product.  its darn cheap ($1.60 for 8 ounces)
so i'm hoping this is the stuff...... please let me know.    thanks.  PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: kat <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Tanning
Date: 13 Jun 1998 08:02:50 -0400


------ =_NextPart_000_01BD96A5.1E814340
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I've helped my brother with brain tanning. There isn't really a mess =
from the brains -- they are liquified, and mixed with water. Once he has =
soaked a hide and worked it dry so it suits him, he pours the brains =
into the flower garden. Lots of beautiful plants this year!

Kat Hargus


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 12 Jun 1998 23:15:21 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-12 15:28:17 EDT, you write:

<< someone on the list mentioned the use of MACS13, and i recall them saying
its
 also at NAPA stores. i have located a product at a NAPA store (called NAPA
 Number 13, stock number 1300), and wanted to verify that it is actually a
 radiator flush / rust inhibitor product.

That's the stuff.  Actualy, it isn't a "flush", but water pump lube.  Basic
ingredient is water soluable oil with some rust inhibitors added.  If you look
at the back label, you'll see  in the lower left corner the familiar "Mac's"
logo.

<  its darn cheap ($1.60 for 8 ounces)
 so i'm hoping this is the stuff...... please let me know.    thanks.  PJ
  >>

Hmmm -- think I've been paying $1.89 for the 12 oz bottle -- still inexpensive
& it works well.  You'll have to play with it a little to see how "dry" to
wring out your patches as with all water based lubes.  I usualy lube up the
patches 3 - 400 at a time & leave 'em in a ziplock bag with enough Mac's on em
I get liquid when I squeeze the bag. Leave the ziplock open just a little bit
so the excess will evaporate off.  If they get too dry, either add more Mac's
or a bit of water.  As cheap as it is, I add more Mac's.  When it comes time
to shoot, put what you need in your patch box/can or whatever you carry your
patches in in your bag 'cuz the ziplock bag odviously ain't a period
container.  Even out here in the desert, the patches will stay damp enough all
day in a Altoid's candy tin.  Nice thing about Mac's -- say you've shot 20
rounds in the morning & your bore is a bit dirty & you want to shoot a few
more rounds in the afternoon.  The first round will load a bit sticky, but the
following rounds will load like in a clean bore.  If you keep shooting, you
shouldn't have to swab the bore between shots at all -- I've shot up to 75
rounds in a day without swabing.  The only problem I had was the fouling build
up back in the breech trying to block off the touch hole.  I'm not advocating
shooting that much without a good cleaning or 2 in the middle of the day, but
I have done it sucessfuly.  If you're shooting in rapid succession or it's a
hot dry day like we get here in the desert (115 degrees & 15% humidity), you
may want to run the patches a bit damper, but my rifles seem to prefer the
patch fairly "dry" or well wrung out for normal shooting.  Have also had good
luck with it in my trade gun.  Have fun!

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Terry Venden <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sons of a Trackless Forest
Date: 12 Jun 1998 16:07:06 -0500

Help,
Sending out a feeler to find out if anyone has ordered and received
their copy of Mark Baker's new book.  I ordered one in Dec., sent my
money in and still haven't received the book..  They were having some
trouble with the printing but I would hope that they have that taken
care of.  Tried to call his publishers company in TN but no number is
listed.  Thought I'd ask before writing and if no one has received
theirs then I'll be a little more patience.
Really enjoy reading all the different treads that you all generate.
Thanks for the help.
Terry (Medicine Bear),  Pineywoods Buckskinners, Texas



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 13 Jun 1998 02:40:53 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-12 15:28:27 EDT, you write:

<< MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner >>
with all this fuss about period stuff i wounder if this is the right thing to
use being there are so many purists among us maby urin is better it was easly
transported an was period corect. they used back then as an anti  foweling
cleaning agent.
purests out there.     got any great comments and words of wisdom????????



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: MtMan-List: [e-mail] (kent klein): wow!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 04:51:51 -0700


Below are Kent Kleins comments to: "don't spend money on a book" comment.
 As I suspected, there is MUCH more to tanning with alum ,or any other
method for that matter,  than the over simplified steps outlined earlier.

Food for thought.

PS. I have nothing personal to gain by noting the efforts of Mr. Klein.
I just appreciate anyones hard work and their time spent on promoting
their own efforts providing the information is sound and researched.

John Funk





--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

Greetings; I must first say John that , with all due respect to Mr. Barry
Powell, the method prescribed by him in tanning with alum is only
similiar in that at some point, alum is indeed used. Beyond that, and
again with no disrespect, th differances and i feel confident in saying,
the outcomes, are very differant. Rather than a detailed description of
the differances, which is covered very thouroughly in my book, i think it
best to briefly outline some thoughts on each of the 5 steps as described
by Mr. Powell. First: Fleshing the hide is indeed very important. Period.
Second:I use lime to slip the hair but lye and ashes will work. However,
it is VERY important to bring the hide back to a neutral PH after using
any of these chemicals, etc. (they induce a very high PH). If you don't,
well don't expect a hide you can be proud of. Ammonium sulfate works very
well to neutralize the hide(as does vinegar). This must be done prior to
the tanning solution. Third:The ratio of ten pounds of salt (non-iodized!
and NOT rock salt) is TOO much. A better ratio is 5 pounds salt to 2
pounds alum. The differance may sound trifal but is essential.
Fourth:Not much to add here for lack of space. Fifth: NEVER let any hide
"dry" before applying a softening  agent. The hide will absorb (key word)
the oil better when applied right after coming out of the tanning
solution. I have never used vegetable oil as described. Rather, i use
sulfinated tanning oil (fancy name for rendered fish oil) as used by
modern tanneries making quality "garment tanned" fur for coats, etc..
Just as adding brains in a brain tan adds lanolin as a softening agent,
it is necessary to "add" this in to an alum tanned hide. Once the oil has
been applied, it need not be re-applied, at least with sulfinated oil. My
wife won't chew hides so, i use a staker, simply made, to break my hides
on and it works quit well. (not a sales pitch but again, described in my
book). As with anything there are little "tricks" that when taken as a
whole, combined with an overall sound tanning method will produce a very
nice, durable alum tanned hide. I have used this method to tan buffalo,
elk, deer, antelope, moose, emu(yes, a bird skin), numerous furbearers
and even a cocker spaniel(don't ever assume that when a stranger calls
and asks if you can tan a dog, they automatically mean a coyote). Alum
tanning is not the perfect tan. It is my experiance that a smoked alum
tanned hide will work much better as  moccasins, leggings, etc. as the
creosote adds an additional tanning agent and water repellencey. I do
even cheat and apply a liberal amount of Thompsons Water Seal to my
smoked hides with no ill effects but several positive ones. (sorry if i
have offended the purist). So, those are my thoughts in a nutshell.
Obviously, there is alot of detail left out but i hope i have at least
interested somebody to perhaps try  an alum tan. The Egyptians used it so
it has been around for awhile. Oh yes, one more thing. I estemate that a
cost per alum tanned hide runs about 2 to 3 dollers  per hide for
chemicals, etc., pretty reasonable. Thankyou for the oppertunity to
discuss the alum tanned process. Please feel free to post this as you see
fit John. If i have raised more questions than answers, please pass them
along and i will try to answer them. Best regards to all, I remain your
humble servant, Kent Klein.
--------- End forwarded message ----------

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parafin oil
Date: 12 Jun 1998 17:23:35 -0600 (CST)

As I said, it's an early name for lamp oil or kerosene.  Do
>NOT attempt to use it for waterproofing as you would essentially make a
>huge, solvent soaked torch just begging for a stray spark to come
>visiting.  I think the general consensus reached on the other list was
>that this "paraffin oil" dates at the EARLIEST to the mid 1850's.

The general consensus among living history types is that since we know
kerosene (paraffin oil) came into widespread use by the Union Army sometime
during the Civil War, and since its use is largely undocumented in the 50s,
the best period for its use by reenactors in 1861 and after.  Candles,
whale oil, tallow, etc. before that.  I do hope someone can positively
document its use prior to the 1860s.  Two good books on early lighting are:

O'Dea, William T.  _The Social History of Lighting_.  New York: The
McMillan Company, 1958.

and

Thwing, Leroy.  _Flickering Flames:  A History of Domestic Lighting through
the Ages_.  Rutland, VT: Charles E. Tuttle Co., 1958.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sons of a Trackless Forest
Date: 14 Jun 1998 09:12:45 -0700

Terry,

Well your question actually makes me feel better.  I'm in the same boat
you are and wondering the same thing.  Since we're not alone, it's
probably just some hold up with printing like you said.  The response was
probably more than expected.  If I hear anything I'll post it here and
you do the same!

Watch yor har!

Frank (Medicine Bear) Stewart

Terry Venden wrote:

> Help,
> Sending out a feeler to find out if anyone has ordered and received
> their copy of Mark Baker's new book.  I ordered one in Dec., sent my
> money in and still haven't received the book..  They were having some
> trouble with the printing but I would hope that they have that taken
> care of.  Tried to call his publishers company in TN but no number is
> listed.  Thought I'd ask before writing and if no one has received
> theirs then I'll be a little more patience.
> Really enjoy reading all the different treads that you all generate.
> Thanks for the help.
> Terry (Medicine Bear),  Pineywoods Buckskinners, Texas



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 14 Jun 1998 20:12:43 -0500

get some non phosphated green soap and some hydrogen peroxide and some
rubbing alcohol and mix equal parts and add 1/4 water --- good cleaner
and  and target shooting solvent to use on patces---

Hawk
michael pierce
e-mail [e-mail]

On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:54:54 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>someone on the list mentioned the use of MACS13, and i recall them
>saying its
>also at NAPA stores. i have located a product at a NAPA store (called
>NAPA
>Number 13, stock number 1300), and wanted to verify that it is
>actually a
>radiator flush / rust inhibitor product.  its darn cheap ($1.60 for 8
>ounces)
>so i'm hoping this is the stuff...... please let me know.    thanks.
>PJ
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 14 Jun 1998 15:36:18 EDT

Dear Angela

As always a great post.
But Why Oh Why,  did you get me started ? ? ?

I agree with your post.  I do think you have slightly missed a very important
point.  The point is HOW WILL WE GET AND KEEP PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES
INTERESTED IN BUCKSKINNING.

Because if Momma ain't happy, ain't no one happy

For the last ten years I have been bugging booshways and clubs to make the
extra-shooting aspect of  events more important.  ( I don't want to say non-
shooting aspects, because I belive they are vitally importatnt)

If you've been going to Rendezvous in the last 15 years you know they are not
anywhere near as hellfire as they used to be.  The gray beards have gotten
older and the tenderfeet are tending to their families.

People (young Families) are desperate for activites that they can do together
that are wholesome, and not expensive (I know that is a totally different can
of worms) and family oriented.  Ithink we have to realize that , respond to it
or realize that we will lose children and grandchildren to the teaching of
strangers (the TV) , to the Mickey Mouse, pre packaged, sanitized,
cartoonized, sterilized versions of their place in history and their place in
this country.

Your posts are always insightful and well thought out, and well researched.
What part of the country are you from I would like to meet you and offer you a
glass of grog at the fireside (no I'm not getting fresh)

Thank you very much
Watch your topknot
JSemninerio



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 14 Jun 1998 13:05:25 -0700



[e-mail] wrote:

> When it comes time
> to shoot, put what you need in your patch box/can or whatever you carry your
> patches in in your bag 'cuz the ziplock bag odviously ain't a period
> container.

> NM

Just a side note:I purchased a real nice small round tin from Panther Primitives
($1.25) for my patches as I lube them up like NM.  Put them in the tin and carried
them to a shoot and they worked great.  Came home from the shoot, cleaned up all
my gear and put it away.  Just got my gear out to get ready for another
shoot...you guessed it, I forgot to take those remaining patches out of the tin
and it's rusted shut!  So feel free to learn from my mistake and save yourself a
little grief!  I just hope some dern feller don't start callin' me rusted tin!

Medicine Bear



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New $1 coin
Date: 14 Jun 1998 20:08:27 -0500

please contact me offline in reference to this subject matter I  thought
the design was down to two specific design of which i have copieds of the
concept coins.  when was the decision made to use sacagjawea----thats a
new one on me.
       =+=
       hawk
michael pierce
e-mail:hawknest4@ juno.com

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:32:09 -0600 (CST) [e-mail] (Henry B.
Crawford) writes:
>The US Treasury Dept. just announced that a new gold-colored dollar
>coin
>will be minted for circulation beginning in 2000.  The image of
>Sacagjawea
>will adorn the face of the coin.
>
>Sounds like good news to me.
>
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Priming Horns
Date: 14 Jun 1998 20:20:34 -0500

matt--- please contact me offline or give me a call and I think I can
help you out with your primer problem--- just finish up a cased flinter
and have a primer nozzle left over and can chat a bit about it---it
measures out the right amount each time it is pressed in the pan---works
good--- I made two it is similar to the tresco nozzle but can be
installed in a horn or in a wooden body--- I will be back from holidays
around the 22 of june so contact me then

hawk
michael pierce
1-813-771-1813
e-mail:[e-mail]

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:35:57 -0400 Matt Despain <[e-mail]> writes:
>Just bought my first flinter and been looking for a priming horn. But
>I
>can't find anyone in my region (Oklahoma) who deals in any kind of
>buckskinning matter.  So I thought I'd put out a message here and see
>if
>anyone had a priming horn that was just collecting dust and would like
>to give it a new home (for a reasonable price that is). Anyone
>interested drop me a note here or at my own e-mail.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Matt Despain
>[e-mail]
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (michael pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 14 Jun 1998 20:33:45 -0500

I wouldnt put that crap in my gun but who am i to say what to use I guess
i've tried about everything that you can use to clean and shoot with and
good green non phosphated soap will clean as well as anything--- if i was
going to use this modern stuff i might as well use the teflon sprayed
ticking that is made by web terry as that stuff-- and i dont even
recomend that.  but who am i to knock or say what you put in the barrel
of your gun---my "OLD GRIZZ"    (Not hawkins shop crap either the real
stuff) has worked for me for over 20 years and havent found anything
better for target shooting---

contact me off line and I will give you several good lub and cleaning
recipies---

hawk
michael pierce
1-813-771-1813
e-mail [e-mail]

On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:15:21 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>In a message dated 98-06-12 15:28:17 EDT, you write:
>
><< someone on the list mentioned the use of MACS13, and i recall them
>saying
>its
> also at NAPA stores. i have located a product at a NAPA store (called
>NAPA
> Number 13, stock number 1300), and wanted to verify that it is
>actually a
> radiator flush / rust inhibitor product.
>
>That's the stuff.  Actualy, it isn't a "flush", but water pump lube.
>Basic
>ingredient is water soluable oil with some rust inhibitors added.  If
>you look
>at the back label, you'll see  in the lower left corner the familiar
>"Mac's"
>logo.
>
><  its darn cheap ($1.60 for 8 ounces)
> so i'm hoping this is the stuff...... please let me know.    thanks.
>PJ
>  >>
>
>Hmmm -- think I've been paying $1.89 for the 12 oz bottle -- still
>inexpensive
>& it works well.  You'll have to play with it a little to see how
>"dry" to
>wring out your patches as with all water based lubes.  I usualy lube
>up the
>patches 3 - 400 at a time & leave 'em in a ziplock bag with enough
>Mac's on em
>I get liquid when I squeeze the bag. Leave the ziplock open just a
>little bit
>so the excess will evaporate off.  If they get too dry, either add
>more Mac's
>or a bit of water.  As cheap as it is, I add more Mac's.  When it
>comes time
>to shoot, put what you need in your patch box/can or whatever you
>carry your
>patches in in your bag 'cuz the ziplock bag odviously ain't a period
>container.  Even out here in the desert, the patches will stay damp
>enough all
>day in a Altoid's candy tin.  Nice thing about Mac's -- say you've
>shot 20
>rounds in the morning & your bore is a bit dirty & you want to shoot a
>few
>more rounds in the afternoon.  The first round will load a bit sticky,
>but the
>following rounds will load like in a clean bore.  If you keep
>shooting, you
>shouldn't have to swab the bore between shots at all -- I've shot up
>to 75
>rounds in a day without swabing.  The only problem I had was the
>fouling build
>up back in the breech trying to block off the touch hole.  I'm not
>advocating
>shooting that much without a good cleaning or 2 in the middle of the
>day, but
>I have done it sucessfuly.  If you're shooting in rapid succession or
>it's a
>hot dry day like we get here in the desert (115 degrees & 15%
>humidity), you
>may want to run the patches a bit damper, but my rifles seem to prefer
>the
>patch fairly "dry" or well wrung out for normal shooting.  Have also
>had good
>luck with it in my trade gun.  Have fun!
>
>NM
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Purest
Date: 14 Jun 1998 19:32:48 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BD97CB.365A8860
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

As a purest my philosophy is don't shoot the dam thing.  It just gets dirty
and I don't need much practice I use about 1-60 cal round ball and 10 22
cal balls on top and with two barrels and two good sharp flints, carrying
a load like that you don't need much practice.   Later Jon T

------=_NextPart_000_01BD97CB.365A8860
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">As a purest my philosophy is don't =
shoot the dam thing.  It just gets dirty and I don't need much =
practice I use about 1-60 cal round ball and 10 22 cal balls on top and =
with two barrels and two good sharp flints, carrying  a load like =
that you don't need much practice.   Later Jon T</p>
</font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BD97CB.365A8860--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 12 Jun 1998 04:10:32 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-11 18:48:19 EDT, you write:

<< I haven't been following this thread really closely, so excuse me if I'm
 wrong, but it seems that the responses have been focussed on getting the
 right gun, & starting the kids shooting.

The thread origionaly concerned a particular youngster who wanted to shoot.
You're quite right about not everyone WANTS to shoot.  My wife, eventhough she
has a perfectly good rifle, pistol, knife, tomahawk, & lance rarely competes
any more.  She realy enjoys camping, period needle work, persona research, &
other aspects of our hobby more than she does actual competition.  She realy
enjoys score keeping & heckling the shooters, but then too she's just living
up to her name of "Lil' Pest".  Our daughter only shot the required 1 time
through a rifle course to qualify for membership.  Our 2 older grandaughters
(8 & 11), on the other hand, can't wait to learn to shoot though once they've
accomplished that feat, I think the older of the 2 will become a non-shooter.
Our 2 younger grandkids (1 1/2 & 3) don't know what they want to do -- yet.

< Teach them historic games, like checkers, dominoes, & the 'stick game'.

& for the older kids, chess, backgammon, & cribage.

<There's so much more to this than shooting! Shooting's fun too, of course,
but it's not everyone's cup of  tea-- it's a pity that so many non-shooters
feel excluded when there's no
 need for them to be.

Couldn't agree more.  For me, this hobby has become much more enjoyable since
the whole family has joined me "on the mountain", even though they're not all
shooters.

 NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 14 Jun 1998 21:47:57 -0700


--------------DE0ABBC618A25FF372FAE32D
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Brother Wheeler'
OK, I'll bit. What's a purist? Am I one of those purist fellas? I guess I could
figure it out by analyzing my choices and ways of doing things.

I'm interested in muzzleloaders, black powder and early American history. I shoot
a muzzle loader and use lead balls and black powder. I don't just dress and camp
funny, I try to do it the way I believe it was done in the 17th and 18th century.
I clean my muzzle loader with hot water and grease it up afterwards with the
lard of one critter or another using a tow worm and linen tow. My guns have shot
well and lasted me some 30 years now.

If I shot an 'inline' using pyrodex, shotgun primers and sabots, cleaned my gun
with water pump flush or lube and dressed in chrome tan golden buckskins and had
enough reservation bead work hanging off me to drown a small pack mule would I be
a buckskinn'in, muzzle loading, mountain man of old? Maybe, Maybe not. The
question  might better be, why bother.  After all that, it would be a lot simpler
to get me a modern gun even a late 19th century cartridge rifle and pistol and be
done with it.

If you (this is a rhetorical question) are interested in muzzleloaders and the
mountain man era or long hunter era and have gone to the trouble of doing your
shooting with muzzleloaders then why do you want to try to make the sport as much
like modern shooting as possible. Why try to reinvent the way things were done in
those olden days that we revere and cherish so highly. Why not just concentrate
on rediscovering the old ways and relearn how the old-timers (of a previous
century) did things and got along quit well without the local NAPA store. And
most of all, if you (rhetorical again) have cause to influence someone just
getting started in this game, why not steer them towards the old ways right from
the start. Help them get a leg up on this game so they don't have to unlearn bad
habits or information and don't have a bunch of gear they wish they could get rid
of but can't afford to let go for nothing.

Some would say that I don't accept those that don't have a 'Chambers' rifle and
dress in brain tan from head to toe. Your not listening! Not everyone that came
to the mountains had a gun much less a truly fine gun. and most did not come
dressed in leather. Most wore home spun and carried an old musket  or were issued
one by their sponsor if they merited one. What is being suggested is that if it
is worth doing, then it really is worth doing right. And we should be encouraging
newcomers to do it right (authentic) or we are not doing our part to preserve the
sport of Buckskinnig/Muzzle Loading. Go the convenient easy path and some day it
will not be muzzle loading any more, it will be just a funny way to shoot
invented in the mid to late 20th century by a bunch of strange people dressed in
funny nondescript clothing.

I hope this does not offend anyone but rather causes some hard thinking on what
we are all about. This is supposed to be a history list/discussion and when I
contribute in the vein of making do, like my suggestion recently to put some
brass grommets in a tarp and treat it with a commercial waterproofing, I am not
doing right by those who tune in to learn the way it was done in the old days am
I. What are you all doing to further our understanding of the ways of our
forefathers?

I remain Your Most Obedient Servant (Humble too)
Capt. Roger Lahti (ret)



[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 98-06-12 15:28:27 EDT, you write:
>
> << MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner >>
> with all this fuss about period stuff i wounder if this is the right thing to
> use being there are so many purists among us maby urin is better it was easly
> transported an was period corect. they used back then as an anti  foweling
> cleaning agent.
> purests out there.     got any great comments and words of wisdom????????



--------------DE0ABBC618A25FF372FAE32D
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Brother Wheeler'
<BR>OK, I'll bit. What's a purist? Am I one of those purist fellas? I guess
I could figure it out by analyzing my choices and ways of doing things.

<P>I'm interested in muzzleloaders, black powder and early American history.
I shoot a muzzle loader and use lead balls and black powder. I don't just
dress and camp funny, I try to do it the way I believe it was done in the
17th and 18th century. I clean my muzzle loader with hot water and grease
it up afterwards with the  lard of one critter or another using a
tow worm and linen tow. My guns have shot well and lasted me some 30 years
now.

<P>If I shot an 'inline' using pyrodex, shotgun primers and sabots, cleaned
my gun with water pump flush or lube and dressed in chrome tan golden buckskins
and had enough reservation bead work hanging off me to drown a small pack
mule would I be a buckskinn'in, muzzle loading, mountain man of old? Maybe,
Maybe not. The question  might better be, <U>why bother.</U>
After all that, it would be a lot simpler to get me a modern gun even a
late 19th century cartridge rifle and pistol and be done with it.

<P>If you (this is a rhetorical question) are interested in muzzleloaders
and the mountain man era or long hunter era and have gone to the trouble
of doing your shooting with muzzleloaders then why do you want to try to
make the sport as much like modern shooting as possible. Why try to reinvent
the way things were done in those olden days that we revere and cherish
so highly. Why not just concentrate on rediscovering the old ways and relearn
how the old-timers (of a previous century) did things and got along quit
well without the local NAPA store. And most of all, if you (rhetorical
again) have cause to influence someone just getting started in this game,
why not steer them towards the old ways right from the start. Help them
get a leg up on this game so they don't have to unlearn bad habits or information
and don't have a bunch of gear they wish they could get rid of but can't
afford to let go for nothing.

<P>Some would say that I don't accept those that don't have a 'Chambers'
rifle and dress in brain tan from head to toe. Your not listening! Not
everyone that came to the mountains had a gun much less a truly fine gun.
and most did not come dressed in leather. Most wore home spun and carried
an old musket  or were issued one by their sponsor if they merited
one. What is being suggested is that if it is worth doing, then it really
is worth doing right. And we should be encouraging newcomers to do it right
(authentic) or we are not doing our part to preserve the sport of Buckskinnig/Muzzle
Loading. Go the convenient easy path and some day it will not be muzzle
loading any more, it will be just a funny way to shoot invented in the
mid to late 20th century by a bunch of strange people dressed in funny
nondescript clothing.

<P>I hope this does not offend anyone but rather causes some hard thinking
on what we are all about. This is supposed to be a history list/discussion
and when I contribute in the vein of making do, like my suggestion recently
to put some brass grommets in a tarp and treat it with a commercial waterproofing,
I am not doing right by those who tune in to learn the way it was done
in the old days am I. What are <U>you all</U> doing to further our understanding
of the ways of our forefathers?

<P>I remain Your Most Obedient Servant (Humble too)
<BR>Capt. Roger Lahti (ret)
<BR>
<BR>

<P>[e-mail] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>In a message dated 98-06-12 15:28:27 EDT, you write:

<P><< MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner >>
<BR>with all this fuss about period stuff i wounder if this is the right
thing to
<BR>use being there are so many purists among us maby urin is better it
was easly
<BR>transported an was period corect. they used back then as an anti
foweling
<BR>cleaning agent.
<BR>purests out there.     got any great comments and
words of wisdom????????</BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

--------------DE0ABBC618A25FF372FAE32D--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist
Date: 15 Jun 1998 01:58:44 -0500

At 07:32 PM 6/14/98 -0700, you wrote:=20

>
> As a purest my philosophy is don't shoot the dam thing. =A0It just gets=
 dirty
> and I don't need much practice I use about 1-60 cal round ball and 10 22=
 cal
> balls on top and with two barrels and two good sharp flints, carrying =A0a
load
> like that you don't need much practice. =A0=A0Later Jon T


Jon,

Best belly laugh in weeks, thanks.

I couldn't agree more.  Why waste galena and powder, at mountain prices,=
 if'n
it don't keep hair on your head or meat in your belly.

In silver tip country I load 105 gr. FF under 14 - 00 buck size swan shot
under
a (bear/sperm oiled) patched .69 round ball for wading.  Ain't that much
fun to
shoot, up close it never misses.

Need more of your attitude too much Unrepentant Royalist and Tory=
 sympathizer
modernist philosophy running amok lately.  Radiator flocum?  Heresy! =20
Mysterious chemical potions from the horseless carriage stithy supply?=20
WitchCraft I say!  Burn'em at the stake!

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning
Date: 15 Jun 1998 02:56:38 -0500

At 03:36 PM 6/14/98 -0400, JSemninerio wrote:
>Dear Angela=20
>
>As always a great post.=20
>But Why Oh Why,=A0 did you get me started ? ? ?=20
>
>I agree with your post.=A0 I do think you have slightly missed a very=
 important
>point.=A0 The point is HOW WILL WE GET AND KEEP PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES
>INTERESTED IN BUCKSKINNING.
>


Interesting topic.

I am proud to say I've never fired a shot at a "public" rendezvous.  I have
touched off a few rounds hooraying a town or robbing the stage coach up in
Davey Jackson's hole.  I was a better shot years ago when my eyes didn't=
 fuzz
so much.  Snuffing candles, and splitting cards is for the eagle eyed young
who's ears don't ring all the time, yet.

What makes a rendezvous is the exchange of learning.  That comes in many and
diverse forms.

The storytellers, the scholars, those that lead children in old games. =
 Those
that teach by showing their fine work demonstrating or speaking of the=
 skills
they've learned add to everyone's experience.  Shooting is only one skill.

Learning to build a fire -- no matter what you don't have.  Learning to cook
with minimal equipage.  Learning how to really sharpen and use knives and
axes.  Learning to stay comfortable in any weather with a few simple
possessions.  Learning to make much of what we need.  Learning enough to=
 know;
that no matter what circumstance dictates; we have the skills to survive
without: which builds confidence in every other aspect of life.

Traders contribute greatly when they know their goods and speak to the
history,
acquisition and manufacture in correct terms of the period.  Those who make
what they sell or only deal in old, authentic and that which is exactly=
 right
to the period, teach.  The K-Mart type traders add nothing to rendezvous.=20
Look-a-like trash, almost sort of right, teaches nothing but more about=
 caveat
emptor.  Someone only interested in collecting the modern coin answering few
questions not related to price do not help.  Those who trade prime plunder=
 for
prime goods, teach.

The period foods, cloth and goods are tools from whence we learn the use.=20
Those that teach of the skills and crafts to use and manufacture those goods
from before mechanization enrich everyones experience.  Blacksmiths,=
 weavers,
cordwainers, woodwrights, tanners, spinners, coopers, all and much, much=
 more
are the learning experiences on which we thrive.  Those who teach of wild
foods, or the stars in the sky may spark a young interest to learn much=
 more.

There is much to learn from books and scholars there is much more to learn
getting out on the ground and finding out how things were really done, by
doing
them that way.

Joy is found in learning.  Learning can be a great deal of fun.  If we=
 aren't
learning we wither.

To me, though important, the shooting aspects are of no greater value than=
 any
other aspect of whatever we choose to call: buckskinning, rendezvous, living
history, working history, experimental history, reenacting, mountainmaning=
 or
whatever.

The musician who tells of the history of the tunes they play, teaches us. =
 The
storyteller who recounts ancient legend stimulates the mind around the late
nite fire.  This is the stuff that I always thought made the experience
worthwhile for the whole family.  Learning to knap from a master or still
another of the many small secrets of fire; each is of equal importance to
shooting.

That and the spirit of camaraderie and community, of honor and integrity, of
common trust.  If we foster these things it will not be hard to keep the=
 kids
interest.

John...
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
=20
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 15 Jun 1998 04:13:29 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Dear Angela
>
> As always a great post.
> But Why Oh Why,  did you get me started ? ? ?
>
> I agree with your post.  I do think you have slightly missed a very important
> point.  The point is HOW WILL WE GET AND KEEP PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES
> INTERESTED IN BUCKSKINNING.
>
> Because if Momma ain't happy, ain't no one happy
>
> For the last ten years I have been bugging booshways and clubs to make the
> extra-shooting aspect of  events more important.  ( I don't want to say non-
> shooting aspects, because I belive they are vitally importatnt)
>
> If you've been going to Rendezvous in the last 15 years you know they are not
> anywhere near as hellfire as they used to be.  The gray beards have gotten
> older and the tenderfeet are tending to their families.
>
> People (young Families) are desperate for activites that they can do together
> that are wholesome, and not expensive (I know that is a totally different can
> of worms) and family oriented.  Ithink we have to realize that , respond to it
> or realize that we will lose children and grandchildren to the teaching of
> strangers (the TV) , to the Mickey Mouse, pre packaged, sanitized,
> cartoonized, sterilized versions of their place in history and their place in
> this country.
>
> Your posts are always insightful and well thought out, and well researched.
> What part of the country are you from I would like to meet you and offer you a
> glass of grog at the fireside (no I'm not getting fresh)
>
> Thank you very much
> Watch your topknot
> JSemninerio
Well I have to say it. I have been watching this disscussion
for a while now. I have been goin to doins for 12 or 14 years or so.
I've only shot at RDV once or twice. I'm not into that. I work hard
6 or 7 days a week, when I get a day off I like to sit by the fire and
visit. There is so much history to cuss and discuss. I'll shoot my
guns when I go hunting, I visit with friends every chance I get.

Snakeshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Darla <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Milton Sublette's writings
Date: 15 Jun 1998 06:33:14 -0400

Gentlemen:

I won't intrude upon your fraternity for long, but I was wondering if
anyone has encountered any journals or memoirs by Milton Sublette.  In
Annie Dillard's early-1970's book Pilgrim at Tinker's Creek she mentions
his writings briefly, but that's the only reference I've found anywhere.  I
have written to Ms. Dillard through her publisher but don't know when or if
to expect a reply.

Milton was a distant cousin of mine -- we came down different branches of
the same family tree.  My father has always been fascinated with William
and Milton.  Thanks to your web site I've been able to provide him with
some interesting reading material this year;  but Milton's journals would
be the ultimate!  And, I confess, I'd be pretty interested to read them,
too.

Thanks much --
Darla Sublette



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: cleaning canvas
Date: 15 Jun 1998 08:54:07 EDT

This may be off topic but hope someone will contact me off line.  I have a
pyriamid tent that got wet in the basement from a leaky pipe and now has black
spots in it (Mildew?)  I don't mind the discoloration but am afraid that the
canvas may rot.  I've cleaned it with soap and bleach.  Does anyone  have
another solution.

Contact me opff line at [e-mail]

Thanks.

Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 15 Jun 1998 00:04:33 -0700

Washtahey Hawk,

I respectfully disagree about your recipe, I feel peroxide is far too
corrosive.  I am getting a feeling of deja vu all over again with this
line of discussion, I guess being old allows me to sorta ignore
discussions held more than a few weeks ago.  Here goes anyway.

Number One Son took my Lyman GP to Boy Scout summer camp when he staffed
in their blackpowder program, and their moose milk was equal thirds of
peroxide, Murphy's Oil soap and rubbing alcohol, used for patch, swab and
overall cleaning.  He fought terrible rust all season and I am shopping
for a replacement barrel.

The way I figure, the soap and alcohol break down and suspend/dissolve the
oily stuff, while the peroxide attacks the metals and the organics, and
the water carries it all away.  Fine so far, but unless the peroxide is
either neutralized or very effectively flushed out it will soak into
cracks/crevices, like the "pores" in the steel (actually tiny cracks
between grains or crystals of metal), and the threads in the breechplug
etc. continuing to etch the steel until it is consumed in the corrosion
process.  Steel should be protected by something like an oil layer after
it is cleaned and flushed/neutralized.

Do you get the surface rust these recipes gave me?  Do you apply any oil
afterward?  Is your bore already protected by a carbon layer (conditioned,
like an iron pot), an iron oxide layer (like a browned barrel) or bright
and shiny?

Several of the old timers that helped me learn the ropes swear by the
household detergent "409" as the patch and cleaner, and they claim to not
oil or anything else afterward.  I still use the stuff for clean out, but
I learned to use a good hot water flush afterward, followed by a nice thin
coat of Rigg anti-rust grease, and am pleased with the results.

I guess in addition to the blackpowder vs. Pyrodex tests I was planning I
should look into some of the wide range of cleaners.

michael pierce wrote:

> get some non phosphated green soap and some hydrogen peroxide and some
> rubbing alcohol and mix equal parts and add 1/4 water --- good cleaner
> and  and target shooting solvent to use on patces---
>
> Hawk
> michael pierce
> e-mail [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sons of a Trackless Forest
Date: 15 Jun 1998 10:32:00 EDT

A friend recently spoke with Mark Baker at Manskers Station  and inquired
about his book. Apparently there were some problems with the quality of the
maps when it came from the printer, so it was sent back for work causing a
delay in shipping. So we continue to wait.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (
Date: 15 Jun 1998 10:29:51 -0500

Well said John, well said.

Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "baird.rick" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: elk antler
Date: 15 Jun 1998 12:21:00 -0700

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------ =_NextPart_001_01BD9891.C61E7210
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Anyone know of any sources for elk antler burrs? Cheaper is what I had in
mind.
Thanks in advance.

------ =_NextPart_001_01BD9891.C61E7210
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
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<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.0.1460.9">
<TITLE>elk antler</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Anyone know of any sources for elk antler burrs? Cheaper is what I had in mind.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Thanks in advance.</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------ =_NextPart_001_01BD9891.C61E7210--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Carlson Wagonlit Travel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: elk antler
Date: 15 Jun 1998 13:47:10

At 12:21 PM 6/15/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Anyone know of any sources for elk antler burrs? Cheaper is what I had in
>mind.
>Thanks in advance.

Moscow Hide and Fur
http://hideandfur.com

Or if you want I can go hand pick something out for you.
Let me know.


Matt Mitchell
Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders
Moscow, Idaho
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: elk antler
Date: 15 Jun 1998 14:26:01 -0500

Rick I think I am going to be ill! I threw away a box of that stuff about a
month ago. I was cleaning the garage and set the box of antler parts to one
side, and some how either me or my son who was helping threw it out! Lost
my buffalo horns too!
Ken

----------
> From: baird.rick <[e-mail]>
> To: mtnmen <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: elk antler
> Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 2:21 PM
>
Anyone know of any sources for elk antler burrs? Cheaper is what I had in
mind.
Thanks in advance.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cleaning canvas
Date: 15 Jun 1998 23:37:45 EDT

Al Levin of Spring Valley Lodges (had mine over 14 years) told me that if I
had mildew, (turned out it was just dirt), that white vinegar would be a good
way to kill the mildew, just wash it off and dry the tent in th esun, hope
that helps



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 15 Jun 1998 18:03:05 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Rog I use the same stuff . Jon T

----------


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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Rog I use the same stuff . Jon =
T<br><br>----------<br>From: Roger Lahti <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP =
Cleaner<br>Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 9:47 PM<br><br><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BD9887.D8443EC0--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner..
Date: 15 Jun 1998 15:26:47 +0000

3, 3, & 1, - 3 parts hydrogen peroxide, 3 parts alcohol and 1 part
Murphy's Oil Soap.  Cleans like you wopuldn't believe.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY

hawknest4 wrote:
>get some non phosphated green soap and some hydrogen peroxide and some
>rubbing alcohol and mix equal parts and add 1/4 water --- good cleaner
>and  and target shooting solvent to use on patces---
>
>Hawk
>michael pierce
>e-mail [e-mail]
>
>On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:54:54 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>>someone on the list mentioned the use of MACS13, and i recall them
>>saying its
>>also at NAPA stores. i have located a product at a NAPA store (called
>>NAPA
>>Number 13, stock number 1300), and wanted to verify that it is
>>actually a
>>radiator flush / rust inhibitor product.  its darn cheap ($1.60 for 8
>>ounces)
>>so i'm hoping this is the stuff...... please let me know.    thanks.
>>PJ
>>
>>
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: elk antler
Date: 15 Jun 1998 09:07:33 -0700

I think a lot of us are gonna be sick on that one.....Buffalo horns
too????

John Funk
Man is judged not so much by the friends he keeps but by the ones that
will call him friend.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 15 Jun 1998 23:48:54 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-14 11:58:34 EDT, you write:

<< maby urin is better it was easly
 transported an was period corect. they used back then as an anti  foweling
 cleaning agent.  >>

Urine would be awfuly hard on a barrel with all the salt & acid.  I think the
period correct lube most used would be bear brease, or lard mixed with bees
wax, or tallow & bees wax,  &, of course, spit.  Urine might make a heck of a
cleaner followed by a thurough drying & a grease patch to prevent rust.  A
more traditional use for urine was as a browning agent for finishing the
outside of the barrel, so you see why I'd hesitate to use it inside the
barrel.  Using urine as a browning agent goes back to the Vikings -- they used
it on their battle axes.  It was also used in the manufacture of black powder

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Terry Venden <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sons of a Trackless Forest
Date: 15 Jun 1998 23:57:41 -0500


--------------9E9DF9006E72B6B7D2BD608C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

[e-mail] wrote:

> A friend recently spoke with Mark Baker at Manskers Station  and
> inquired
> about his book. Apparently there were some problems with the quality
> of the
> maps when it came from the printer, so it was sent back for work
> causing a
> delay in shipping. So we continue to wait.
>
> Todd Glover

Todd,
Thanks, that what I thought also.  Figured Mark would be getting it out
if he had them to get out.  I'm still waiting with GREAT EXPECTATIONS.
At 900 + pages should be really informative.
Terry, (Medicine Bear), Pineywoods Buckskinners


--------------9E9DF9006E72B6B7D2BD608C
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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<HTML>
[e-mail] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>A friend recently spoke with Mark Baker at Manskers
Station  and inquired
<BR>about his book. Apparently there were some problems with the quality
of the
<BR>maps when it came from the printer, so it was sent back for work causing
a
<BR>delay in shipping. So we continue to wait.

<P>Todd Glover</BLOCKQUOTE>

<HR WIDTH="100%">Todd,
<BR>Thanks, that what I thought also.  Figured Mark would be getting
it out if he had them to get out.  I'm still waiting with GREAT EXPECTATIONS.
At 900 + pages should be really informative.
<BR>Terry, (Medicine Bear), Pineywoods Buckskinners
<BR>  </HTML>

--------------9E9DF9006E72B6B7D2BD608C--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 16 Jun 1998 01:32:25 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-15 11:05:40 EDT, you write:

<< Just a side note:I purchased a real nice small round tin from Panther
Primitives
 ($1.25) for my patches as I lube them up like NM.

You might check the grocery stores in your area & look for Altoids mints.
These are a period candy that sells for under $2/tin -- note "tin".  They were
origionaly used for "breath ments" in the mid 1700's -- before the days of
dental hygene.  They're a pretty good sharp mint -- & the tin they come in
makes a dandy patch can.  I seriously doubt the labeling they use today is
period, so I simply burn off the paint, buff with steel wool & lightly oil.
The lid is hinges like the old Sucrets tins were, so you don't have to worry
'bout dropping the lid or misplacing it.  I used to use old percussion cap
tins for patch cans (again, with labels removed), but since I switched to
flint lock, I don't get many of those any more.  There's another candy by
Cavendish & Harvey -- fruit flavored hard candys -- that also come in a tin
can.  These cans are realy handy for making char cloth.  We seldom buy cans
'cuz why buy just a can when you can get something in it?  Like the Chivas
Regal tin that has a bottle of pretty good Scotch in it around Christmas time.
Unfortunately, that tin has an embossed lid, but there are others that don't.
When you get something that comes in a tin can with a lid, "recycle" it.

  <  Just got my gear out to get ready for another
 shoot...you guessed it, I forgot to take those remaining patches out of the
tin
 and it's rusted shut!

Hmmm!  Never had that happen.  I have had cap tins get pin holes in them when
I didn't wring out the patches enough, but it usualy took a few months.  Maybe
it's because I usualy oil the cnas right after I burn off the lables  -- I
usualy burn several at a time & if I don't oil 'em, they'll rust before I get
to use 'em.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not  N
Date: 16 Jun 1998 03:46:53 -0500


I don't shoot anymore and "HERESY" don't even personally agree with the
requirement to shoot! Being interested in the NORTHWEST COMPANY around
1790-1810 most of the canoe men from Quebec didn't even have a gun!
 I'm sure my GGG-Grandfather didn't have one,That illiterate frenchie was
nothing more than a canoepaddeling mule!
















On 1998-06-15 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SBXA  (Win95; I)
   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
   >Sender: [e-mail]
   >Precedence: bulk
   >Status:
   >[e-mail] wrote:
   >> Dear Angela
   >> As always a great post.
   >> But Why Oh Why,  did you get me started ? ? ?
   >> I agree with your post.  I do think you have slightly missed a
   >>very important  point.  The point is HOW WILL WE GET AND KEEP
   >>PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES  INTERESTED IN BUCKSKINNING.
   >> Because if Momma ain't happy, ain't no one happy
   >> For the last ten years I have been bugging booshways and clubs to
   >>make the  extra-shooting aspect of  events more important.  ( I
   >>don't want to say non-  shooting aspects, because I belive they
   >are vitally importatnt) >
   >> If you've been going to Rendezvous in the last 15 years you know
   >>they are not  anywhere near as hellfire as they used to be.  The
   >>gray beards have gotten  older and the tenderfeet are tending to
   >their families. >
   >> People (young Families) are desperate for activites that they can
   >>do together  that are wholesome, and not expensive (I know that is
   >>a totally different can  of worms) and family oriented.  Ithink we
   >>have to realize that , respond to it  or realize that we will lose
   >>children and grandchildren to the teaching of  strangers (the TV) ,
   >>to the Mickey Mouse, pre packaged, sanitized,  cartoonized,
   >>sterilized versions of their place in history and their place in
   >this country. >
   >> Your posts are always insightful and well thought out, and well
   >>researched.  What part of the country are you from I would like to
   >>meet you and offer you a  glass of grog at the fireside (no I'm
   >not getting fresh) >
   >> Thank you very much
   >> Watch your topknot
   >> JSemninerio
   >Well I have to say it. I have been watching this disscussion
   >for a while now. I have been goin to doins for 12 or 14 years or so.
   >I've only shot at RDV once or twice. I'm not into that. I work hard
   >6 or 7 days a week, when I get a day off I like to sit by the fire
   >and visit. There is so much history to cuss and discuss. I'll shoot
   >my guns when I go hunting, I visit with friends every chance I get.
   >Snakeshot

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 16 Jun 1998 03:38:00 EDT

ive used your methods for some 25yrs yes ways of old. im trying to have fun
hear but get poked at by this and that . we are getting out of hand  hear im
notadvocating . the use of modern products hear. but we do take our modern
medication we dont have scurvy and head lice. paracites in the intestines. i
think we can reinact and then we can have fun also and not be self concious
when we go to a meet and some finger pointing person say thats not period.
when you take the fun out of somthing with  puting someone down it  is not fun
anymore. i do the best i can with what i got crome tan bucks and the lot and
to hell with wtih the finger pointing. i respecet a person that does it the
right way. a purist. they keep it the way it was some one has to rember how
was.its is one of my pet peeves. im not a purist but i injoy going to a meet
and watch and learn the old ways. do you think im going to throw away my
200.00 leather bucks just because some one says its not period no way. im
keeping them i made them my self me an the dear it took some time . i followed
an lod patern.  though !!!!!!! im 54 yrs young and when i was 10 yrs a
mountian man said get your self some skins and come play.there was no mention
of crome tan or this and that. or you cant come play if you dont. thats ben a
few yrs ago. im still playing and maby some day ill have a coveted set of bain
tans and ill make them my self. use it up wear it out make do or do without.

                                               i still am your most respctfull
                                               obediant servant. that cant
spell
                                                iron toung that walks
                                                thanks capt. rodger lati



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: elk antler
Date: 16 Jun 1998 07:44:54 -0500

Check with Claw, Antler and Hide out of Custer, South Dakota.  I've been
to the store and they were nice people.

http://www.wwwtravel.com/sd/custer/cah/index.html



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Milton Sublette's writings
Date: 15 Jun 1998 23:17:51 -0600

At 06:33 AM 6/15/98 -0400, Darla Sublette wrote:
>.. I was wondering if
>anyone has encountered any journals or memoirs by Milton Sublette.....

I haven't seen or heard of a journal published by Milton - but sure would
be interesed in reading it!  One suggestion is that I've heard that the
Missouri Historical Society has a collection of manuscripts called the
"Sublette Collection"; perhaps some of those papers are Milton's.  I
haven't had a chance to see these, so I can't say for sure.  Anybody know
if this collection is available on microfilm?


Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 16 Jun 1998 09:35:21 -0600

<[e-mail]> wrote:
> Why Oh Why,  did you get me started ? ? ?
<snip> HOW WILL WE GET AND KEEP
>PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES INTERESTED IN BUCKSKINNING.
>Because if Momma ain't happy, ain't no one happy

That, indeed, is the question.  I'm still trying to figure out the answer ;
when I was writing my last post, I began to realize that I should do more to
help. I think WE REALLY NEED TO SWAP IDEAS ON THIS. I would love to hear
from others on what works for them. Here in Alberta, there's not a lot of
buckskinning, so we may have re-invented the wheel, but here's my tuppence
worth :

Howling Coyote Rendezvous is held on the Canadian Thanksgiving weekend
(mid-October). They have lots of activities for those who aren't shooting.
There are the usual contests for best camp, best costume, &c. There is also
a campfire cooking competition, with prizes for best main dish, best
dessert, &c. Dishes with a historic pedigree get extra points in the
judging. The kids get to carve jack-o-lanterns or do other crafts under the
supervision of a couple of adult volunteers, which leaves the parents free
to do other stuff without worrying about keeping the kids from falling into
the campfire.

There's also a trading contest, for all ages. Everyone is given ten trade
tokens when they register ;  they can spend them or try to acquire more
whatever way they can (short of stealing & extortion). The person with the
most tokens at the end of the rendezvous gets a prize; one year, a lady
swapped cookies for tokens, & walked off with the prize, a very nice Dutch
oven. Another year, a teenage girl did short babysitting stints for tokens,
and came in second or third.

This rendezvous also brings in folks from outside the buckskinning community
to give workshops & demonstrations on period skills, such as flint-knapping,
making willow baskets, drop spindle spinning, &c. The workshop folks have
often never heard of rendezvous before, and really enjoy it. Workshops are
included with your registration.

One of the most successful activities I've ever seen was an evening workshop
for kids on fire-starting with flint & steel, at the Country View Rendezvous
in Saskatchewan. The kids were all supplied with good-quality char cloth,
flint, steel, dry wood shavings, and small kindling. As the parents looked
on, a couple of volunteers went from kid to kid, helping them start a fire
with flint & steel _all_by_themselves._ The parents applauded for every new
fire, and the kids were absolutely thrilled. I think a few kids couldn't
believe they'd actually done it! I think that the key was probably to making
it easy, rather than 100% historic-- you can take the training wheels off
once they've found out how much fun it is to ride the bike.

What has worked for other folks? Any new ideas?

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Larry R. Weisz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Elkhorn Wisconsin Rondevous
Date: 16 Jun 1998 10:16:13 -0500



Last year I went to a Rondevous up in Elkhorn,
Wisconsin and wondered if anyone knew of this
years dates for it.
Thank You in Advance for your help
Your humble servant
Littlehawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elkhorn Wisconsin Rondevous
Date: 16 Jun 1998 13:24:09 -0500

I've got it listed as probably July 24-26.  Try calling [phone].

Jim

  /`-_    Jim Lindberg                 |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa
 { .   }/ 724 East Grand Avenue        |
  \    /  Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter,
   |___|  http://reality.sgi.com/jal/  |Until we next meete.  Go Gentle.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Charlie P. Webb)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 16 Jun 1998 12:44:21 -0600

I have some questions, and a few thoughts.
Why do you use hot water to clean your firearm?
Do you believe that every time a woodsman wanted
to clean  his fire arm, he stopped built a fire and heated
water?  What if he was in hostile territory with a fouled
firearm. Would he take the chance of being discovered
by enemies or spooking game by building a fire for heating
water to be used for gun cleaning purposes?  Hot water
will clean a muzzle loading firearm, but is it the best choice?
The world has long known that when hot water is poured
over a piece a metal  that oxidation occurs  very rapidly,
much faster than with cool or ambient temperature water.
As a certified instructor I  demonstrate muzzle loading
firearm cleaning  using  Ice water, (Ice floating in water)
ambient temperature water, ( would be typical of water
carried a skin or canteen by a hunter)  and hot water
which I believe they seldom used.  The ice water is a bit
slower softening the fouling, but it does soften enough
that it is entirely wiped from the barrel and breech with
three to four patches.   The ambient temp. water is some
what quicker,  but like the ice water the firearm barrel
wipes clean with a just a few patches.  You know about
hot water, so I won't  discuss it.  The bottom line is, they
all work!   They will clean a firearm as well as any 20th
Century magic elixir or solvent existing!  When I am
in the field I suppose that I am one of those purist types
and try to live the experience as it may have been done
during the time frame of my interest.  I do not heat water
in the field for gun cleaning,  I do so for personal hygiene.
But then we all know  that one can bathe and get clean
with cold water.  I hate breaking half inch thick ice early
in the morning  just  to wash the sleep out of my eyes.<gg>
    There has been mentioned on this list of several
concoctions for patch lubes. One that has lived long and
works well for target shooting is Moose Milk,  it is very
inexpensive and when your whole family shoots one needs
to get by as economically as he can.  Moose milk,   I make it
up in a twenty four ounce bottle, ( because that is what I have)
one ounce of water soluble oil to twenty ounces of ambient
water.  then to the whole mixture add two ounces of Murphy's
Oil Soap,  (soap, not a detergent!)  Shake it up and use it.
You might note I said  nothing about including Hydrogen
Peroxide in the mix!   Hydrogen Peroxide is an oxygenator
that when used as a gun cleaner causes instant oxidation
on any part of the un browned barrel it touches, meaning
in this case the barrels bore.  A test you might try  is
clean your muzzle loader as clean as you can get it with
peroxide in your mixture,  I mean so clean that  the patch
comes out as clean as it went in, no streaks, just plain white.
Stand  your fresh clean barrel in the corner, then clean the
lock and stock.  Now run a fresh  snow white cleaning patch
down the barrel to the breech and with draw it,  it will now
have gray green streaks instead of clean white,  oxidation
is the cause. This test is a bit tough to do when using tow
due to it's natural color.  I personally prefer tow for my
cleaning, but again that choice is yours.  I have antiqued
or patina ed  many "Bess" barrels with peroxide, it is much
more gentle than Clorox or nitric acid, there fore it's easier
to con troll.  It is my belief that hydrogen peroxide
was not carried in any ones possible sack for gun cleaning
purposes.  It does not clean a bit better than plain old
plentiful and inexpensive tap or stream water.  The NMLRA
has long preached the sin's of peroxide in muzzle loaders.
Since  Peroxide was not used for gun cleaning purposes on
original firearms,  why is it so popular today with some folks?
And  why do so many  sing it's praises?  why would a person
attempting to recreate what our Grandfathers lived, choose
to use it to desolve fouling on our replicas when it is  something
Grandfather probably never dreamed of and most likely never
used?  I have never seen "Bridger Approved"on any peroxide
bottle. <<<ggg>>> I do sometimes miss the fine print with my
failing eye sight.  Thank God for contact lenses, without them I
I coulden't see through my tri-focals!NAPA Auto Part stores
carry or can order Water Soluble Cutting and Grinding Oil.
Machine shops use  it for cooling  parts being milled or shaped
on a lathe.  The part number is  # 765-1525  for a gallon, nearly a
lifetimes supply for most folks, sells for around $27.00,  and a pint
bottle for about $8.00. # 765-1526 For cold weather  you might
add an ounce of alcohol to the mix, I don't because I never felt
the need to.
    I have no idea or intention that what I have written
here should change  what anyone is presently doing, I simply
would like for  you to think about it, possibly try it, if you are
totally happy with your present methods fine, shoot center and
have fun! Any cleaning method is far better than not cleaning
at all.  The quality of many of todays replicas will probably allow
them to be around and useable long after  we'ins has gone under.
          The water soluble oil is actually very similar to
some of the available lubricants used thru the mid 1700's through
the 1860's  When I bought my last gallon of W.S.O. it contained
no petroleum products, but who knows now?  Have a good day!!!!!!!

Old Coyote
CC CO.

>OK, I'll bit. What's a purist? Am I one of those purist fellas?
>guess I could
>figure it out by analyzing my choices and ways of doing things.
>
>I'm interested in muzzleloaders, black powder and early American
>history. I shoot
>a muzzle loader and use lead balls and black powder. I don't just
>dress and camp
>funny, I try to do it the way I believe it was done in the 17th and
>18th century.
>I clean my muzzle loader with hot water and grease it up afterwards
>with the
>lard of one critter or another using a tow worm and linen tow. My guns
>have shot
>well and lasted me some 30 years now.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: alum tanning
Date: 16 Jun 1998 14:58:33 -0400

here's a question for you folks. I've got 4 hides that I'm in the
process of alum tanning. I dehaired them, soaked them in the tanning
solution and now I'm staking and stretching them. The thing that I've
noticed is this. When I dehaired them, ashes weren't doing the job very
well so I switched to lye. Now I notice that the one hide that I
dehaired with ashes alone is staking and stretching much easier than the
3 that had lye added. Any thoughts?


Kirk Mill

(just a pilgrim from PA)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 16 Jun 1998 15:54:41 -0500

Soak those rusted tins in some "Liquid Wrench" and they will open up. I
brown all my tins after I polish them white. Haven't had anymore stick
since I started browning them. I wipe the inside edge of the lid with light
oil, not much, just what is on an oil rag and that seems to help as well.
When I finish making char I let my char tin cool and then blast the sucker
with WD-40. That way it don't rust so bad I can't use it again. Thanks for
the tip on the mint tins!
YMDS,
YellowFeather


----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 12:32 AM
>
> In a message dated 98-06-15 11:05:40 EDT, you write:
>
> << Just a side note:I purchased a real nice small round tin from Panther
> Primitives
>  ($1.25) for my patches as I lube them up like NM.
>
> You might check the grocery stores in your area & look for Altoids mints.
> These are a period candy that sells for under $2/tin -- note "tin".  They
were
> origionaly used for "breath ments" in the mid 1700's -- before the days
of
> dental hygene.  They're a pretty good sharp mint -- & the tin they come
in
> makes a dandy patch can.  I seriously doubt the labeling they use today
is
> period, so I simply burn off the paint, buff with steel wool & lightly
oil.
> The lid is hinges like the old Sucrets tins were, so you don't have to
worry
> 'bout dropping the lid or misplacing it.  I used to use old percussion
cap
> tins for patch cans (again, with labels removed), but since I switched to
> flint lock, I don't get many of those any more.  There's another candy by
> Cavendish & Harvey -- fruit flavored hard candys -- that also come in a
tin
> can.  These cans are realy handy for making char cloth.  We seldom buy
cans
> 'cuz why buy just a can when you can get something in it?  Like the
Chivas
> Regal tin that has a bottle of pretty good Scotch in it around Christmas
time.
> Unfortunately, that tin has an embossed lid, but there are others that
don't.
> When you get something that comes in a tin can with a lid, "recycle" it.
>
>   <  Just got my gear out to get ready for another
>  shoot...you guessed it, I forgot to take those remaining patches out of
the
> tin
>  and it's rusted shut!
>
> Hmmm!  Never had that happen.  I have had cap tins get pin holes in them
when
> I didn't wring out the patches enough, but it usualy took a few months.
Maybe
> it's because I usualy oil the cnas right after I burn off the lables  --
I
> usualy burn several at a time & if I don't oil 'em, they'll rust before I
get
> to use 'em.
>
> NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: elk antler
Date: 16 Jun 1998 16:04:37 -0500

Yep and I just realized yesterday that is even worse than I thought. All my
horn, antler, copper penny, shell, bone, and silver buttons were in the
same box. You ever seen a 54 year old man cry? Sorry sight! My own stupid
fault though. What bothers me most is the horns go to my Sun Dance skull
that was used when I did the sun dance in 1975. Next time someone tells me
to clean the garage I just might run away from home!
YMDS,
YellowFeather

----------
> From: john c funk,jr <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: elk antler
> Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 11:07 AM
>
> I think a lot of us are gonna be sick on that one.....Buffalo horns
> too????
>
> John Funk
> Man is judged not so much by the friends he keeps but by the ones that
> will call him friend.
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Despain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Milton Sublette's writings
Date: 16 Jun 1998 19:13:43 -0500



Dean Rudy wrote:

> At 06:33 AM 6/15/98 -0400, Darla Sublette wrote:
> >.. I was wondering if
> >anyone has encountered any journals or memoirs by Milton Sublette.....
>
> I haven't seen or heard of a journal published by Milton - but sure would
> be interesed in reading it!  One suggestion is that I've heard that the
> Missouri Historical Society has a collection of manuscripts called the
> "Sublette Collection"; perhaps some of those papers are Milton's.  I
> haven't had a chance to see these, so I can't say for sure.  Anybody know
> if this collection is available on microfilm?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
> Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html

 Dear Dean:

I belive the Sublette papers are on microfilm just as the AM. FUR CO. and the
Robert Campbell papers are.  They are a costly set.  The Campbell papers
alone are about $3000, I think.  If any library has them in Utah it would be
Brigham Young University.  They have an extensive fur trade collection: some
of the W. Ferris stuff, Missouri papers on film, the Campbell collection on
film, etc.  Give em a call or contact Fred Gownas at the history department
there.

Matt Despain



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: patch lube and cleaner
Date: 16 Jun 1998 19:45:37 -0500

Folks,
Now some of you are going to label me a purist, but here's my two cents
worth on the cleaning of  blackpowder guns. Peroxide is very corrosive ! It
is used in some industries to etch metal on purpose. So why in the world
would want to put it down the bore of your prize rifle or smoothbore. There
are many very effective commercial blackpowder solvents, and I have tried
most of them
at one time or another. The Murphy's Oil Soap reciepes the 409 stuff the
windshield washer fluid I've tried it all. Then it occured to me that our
forefathers didn't carry around a bar of lye soap to clean their guns. They
used just plain water, and that is all I have used for the last six years
with very good results.They washed or wiped their guns out with water dried
them well then greased or oiled the bore, and reloaded. The key to any
cleaning method is thoroughly drying the bore after cleaing then using a
good lube to prevent rust from forming. To backtrack for a moment, stop and
think about it would you use peroxide to clean your best castiron skillet ?
If you treat your gun bore the same as you would you best skillet you won't
go wrong.
 To the fellow with the Lyman rifle that continued to rust. All gun barrels
are not the same. That is to say some metals are more porous than others.
That is not a knock on Lyman guns. Lyman makes a fine rifle that is
probably one of the best out of the box guns around, but their barrels are
a bit more porous than some others and therefore require a little more
maintence. The bottom line is you have to learn what works best in your
gun. Another tip is two or three days after you have cleaned your gun and
put it away run a patch down the bore just to check it to make sure
everything is up to snuff.In high humidity areas like ours this is a very
good idea. I can't emphasize enough, you have to dry the bore completely  !
Now I fully expect to hear from a whole flock of folks who have used their
favorite concoction for gun cleaning for years and wouldn't change no
matter what, and that is fine I'm not trying to condemn or change anyone's
methods. In my experience when we get away from the ways of our forefathers
we are usually messing up. That's my two cents worth.

Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not  N
Date: 16 Jun 1998 18:15:38 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I agree Jeff My persona is about the same and sometime I don't take a gun
also most of the time I forget it and we are the Party of the Men of the
Canot du Nord in the NW ( state of Washington) When I do take a gun it is a
Double Barrel 20 Ga. shot gun ( Flintier) I never could get used to those
caps and they hadn't been invented in my time frame.  I don't even carry a
priming horn I just prime out of the big horn works fine for me.  After a
long day on the river no one wants to shoot anything but the shit.  Thats
the best thing I shoot and very well I might add.  A couple of Hip Hips for
David Thompson and the Northwest Company.    Later Jon T

----------
: From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Cc: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning
(not  N
: Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 1:46 AM
:
:
: I don't shoot anymore and "HERESY" don't even personally agree with the
: requirement to shoot! Being interested in the NORTHWEST COMPANY around
: 1790-1810 most of the canoe men from Quebec didn't even have a gun!
:  I'm sure my GGG-Grandfather didn't have one,That illiterate frenchie was
: nothing more than a canoepaddeling mule!
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
: On 1998-06-15 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
:    >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SBXA  (Win95; I)
:    >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
:    >Sender: [e-mail]
:    >Precedence: bulk
:    >Status:
:    >[e-mail] wrote:
:    >> Dear Angela
:    >> As always a great post.
:    >> But Why Oh Why,  did you get me started ? ? ?
:    >> I agree with your post.  I do think you have slightly missed a
:    >>very important  point.  The point is HOW WILL WE GET AND KEEP
:    >>PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES  INTERESTED IN BUCKSKINNING.
:    >> Because if Momma ain't happy, ain't no one happy
:    >> For the last ten years I have been bugging booshways and clubs to
:    >>make the  extra-shooting aspect of  events more important.  ( I
:    >>don't want to say non-  shooting aspects, because I belive they
:    >are vitally importatnt) >
:    >> If you've been going to Rendezvous in the last 15 years you know
:    >>they are not  anywhere near as hellfire as they used to be.  The
:    >>gray beards have gotten  older and the tenderfeet are tending to
:    >their families. >
:    >> People (young Families) are desperate for activites that they can
:    >>do together  that are wholesome, and not expensive (I know that is
:    >>a totally different can  of worms) and family oriented.  Ithink we
:    >>have to realize that , respond to it  or realize that we will lose
:    >>children and grandchildren to the teaching of  strangers (the TV) ,
:    >>to the Mickey Mouse, pre packaged, sanitized,  cartoonized,
:    >>sterilized versions of their place in history and their place in
:    >this country. >
:    >> Your posts are always insightful and well thought out, and well
:    >>researched.  What part of the country are you from I would like to
:    >>meet you and offer you a  glass of grog at the fireside (no I'm
:    >not getting fresh) >
:    >> Thank you very much
:    >> Watch your topknot
:    >> JSemninerio
:    >Well I have to say it. I have been watching this disscussion
:    >for a while now. I have been goin to doins for 12 or 14 years or so.
:    >I've only shot at RDV once or twice. I'm not into that. I work hard
:    >6 or 7 days a week, when I get a day off I like to sit by the fire
:    >and visit. There is so much history to cuss and discuss. I'll shoot
:    >my guns when I go hunting, I visit with friends every chance I get.
:    >Snakeshot
:
: Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
:
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I agree Jeff My persona is about the =
same and sometime I don't take a gun also most of the time I forget it =
and we are the Party of the Men of the Canot du Nord in the NW ( state =
of Washington) When I do take a gun it is a Double Barrel 20 Ga. shot =
gun ( Flintier) I never could get used to those caps and they hadn't =
been invented in my time frame.  I don't even carry a priming horn =
I just prime out of the big horn works fine for me.  After a long =
day on the river no one wants to shoot anything but the shit. =
 Thats the best thing I shoot and very well I might add.  A =
couple of Hip Hips for David Thompson and the Northwest Company. =
   Later Jon T  <br><br>----------<br>: From: Jeff =
Powers <<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Cc: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting =
Kids Started in Buckskinning (not  N<br>: Date: Tuesday, June 16, =
1998 1:46 AM<br>: <br>: <br>: I don't shoot anymore and =
"HERESY" don't even personally agree with the<br>: requirement =
to shoot! Being interested in the NORTHWEST COMPANY around<br>: =
1790-1810 most of the canoe men from Quebec didn't even have a gun!<br>: =
 I'm sure my GGG-Grandfather didn't have one,That illiterate =
frenchie was<br>: nothing more than a canoepaddeling mule!<br>: <br>: =
<br>: <br>: <br>: <br>: <br>: <br>: <br>: <br>: <br>: <br>: <br>: <br>: =
<br>: <br>: <br>: On 1998-06-15 <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"> said to <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000"><br>: =
   >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SBXA  (Win95; I)<br>: =
   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<br>: =
   >Sender: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>:    >Precedence: bulk<br>: =
   >Status:<br>:    ><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font color=3D"#000000"> =
wrote:<br>:    >> Dear Angela<br>: =
   >> As always a great post.<br>: =
   >> But Why Oh Why,  did you get me started =
? ? ?<br>:    >> I agree with your post.  I do =
think you have slightly missed a<br>:    >>very =
important  point.  The point is HOW WILL WE GET AND KEEP<br>: =
   >>PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES  INTERESTED IN =
BUCKSKINNING.<br>:    >> Because if Momma ain't =
happy, ain't no one happy<br>:    >> For the last =
ten years I have been bugging booshways and clubs to<br>: =
   >>make the  extra-shooting aspect of =
 events more important.  ( I<br>: =
   >>don't want to say non-  shooting aspects, =
because I belive they<br>:    >are vitally importatnt) =
><br>:    >> If you've been going to Rendezvous =
in the last 15 years you know<br>:    >>they are =
not  anywhere near as hellfire as they used to be.  The<br>: =
   >>gray beards have gotten  older and the =
tenderfeet are tending to<br>:    >their families. =
><br>:    >> People (young Families) are =
desperate for activites that they can<br>:    >>do =
together  that are wholesome, and not expensive (I know that =
is<br>:    >>a totally different can  of =
worms) and family oriented.  Ithink we<br>: =
   >>have to realize that , respond to it  or =
realize that we will lose<br>:    >>children and =
grandchildren to the teaching of  strangers (the TV) ,<br>: =
   >>to the Mickey Mouse, pre packaged, sanitized, =
 cartoonized,<br>:    >>sterilized versions of =
their place in history and their place in<br>: =
   >this country. ><br>:    >> =
Your posts are always insightful and well thought out, and well<br>: =
   >>researched.  What part of the country are =
you from I would like to<br>:    >>meet you and =
offer you a  glass of grog at the fireside (no I'm<br>: =
   >not getting fresh) ><br>: =
   >> Thank you very much<br>: =
   >> Watch your topknot<br>: =
   >> JSemninerio<br>:    >Well I =
have to say it. I have been watching this disscussion<br>: =
   >for a while now. I have been goin to doins for 12 =
or 14 years or so.<br>:    >I've only shot at RDV once =
or twice. I'm not into that. I work hard<br>:    >6 or =
7 days a week, when I get a day off I like to sit by the fire<br>: =
   >and visit. There is so much history to cuss and =
discuss. I'll shoot<br>:    >my guns when I go =
hunting, I visit with friends every chance I get.<br>: =
   >Snakeshot<br>: <br>: Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test =
Drive<br>: </p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BD9952.C37C1960--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 16 Jun 1998 22:42:03 EDT

Dear Angela

It is always nice to have a sympathetic ear to bend every once in awhile
thank you



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 16 Jun 1998 22:24:13 -0500

At 03:38 AM 6/16/98 -0400, capt. rodger lati wrote:
>ive used your methods for some 25yrs yes ways of old. im trying to have fun
>hear but get poked at by this and that . we are getting out of hand=A0 hear=
 im
>notadvocating . the use of modern products hear. but we do take our modern
>medication we dont have scurvy and head lice. paracites in the intestines.=
 i
>think we can reinact and then we can have fun also and not be self concious
>when we go to a meet and some finger pointing person say thats not period.
>when you take the fun out of somthing with=A0 puting someone down it=A0 is =
not
fun
>anymore. i do the best i can with what i got crome tan bucks and the lot=
 and
>to hell with wtih the finger pointing. i respecet a person that does it the
>right way. a purist. they keep it the way it was some one has to rember how
>was.its is one of my pet peeves. im not a purist but i injoy going to a=
 meet
>and watch and learn the old ways. do you think im going to throw away my
>200.00 leather bucks just because some one says its not period no way. im
>keeping them i made them my self me an the dear it took some time . i
followed
>an lod patern.=A0 though !!!!!!! im 54 yrs young and when i was 10 yrs a
>mountian man said get your self some skins and come play.there was no=
 mention
>of crome tan or this and that. or you cant come play if you dont. thats ben=
 a
>few yrs ago. im still playing and maby some day ill have a coveted set of
bain
>tans and ill make them my self. use it up wear it out >make do or do=
 without.


Capt. Lati,

I was trying to keep things a little humorous.  To try and follow up on the
wry
humor in Jon Townes' posting.  Too bad you took it personal.  Guess I tend=
 to
be more humorless. =20

Scurvy was cured by the 1700's with citrus at sea and rose hips in the
mountains, head lice is still a problem and I've had Guardia in my=
 intestines
for years.  I don't take modern medications. =20

There was a point to my posting and to his. =20

The point is: this list is a historic discussion group supported by members=
 of
A.M.M.  Modern techniques have no place here when reasonable period
alternatives exist.  It has nothing to do with any public rendezvous, nor
is it
an attempt to dictate only what is right for everybody.  No one is trying to
ruin your fun. I and others are trying to keep these discussions on track. =
=20

We are all guests of Dean Rudy here, I would like to honor what he has set=
 out
as the purpose and intent of this list.

We do try and sort out what may be more correct for those individuals who
continually strive to learn more about the old ways.  Discussions of
irrelevant
modern expedients do not further these efforts. expedients which seem to=
 have
their own problems.

This is not an extension of the NMLRA, who don't care if you wear naugahyde.=
=20
They don't care about preserving history.  They do care about nickel and
diming
the participants to death.  I quit over 20 years ago.

We are all learning and in this world there will always be accommodations
forced upon us.  Exactly right is a very elusive concept.  We know much more
than was known 20 years ago, there is much more yet to learn.  We do not=
 learn
how things were if we do not do things the old way.

I still have the rotted remains of my first set of commercial tan skins and
those of a braintan set as well.  Getting ready to make another, my fifth or
sixth set.=20

I have never said anything against commercial tan leather, because there was
commercial tanning being done in the early nineteenth century.  Some
commercial
tan inevitably made its way to rendezvous and braintan is just not available
for everyone.=20

I commented because flocum generated a ridiculous number of postings on a
subject totally inappropriate.  How tough can it be to mix 3 or 4 simple
common
ingredients and do it close to right?  A simple recipe was nicely presented,
promptly ignored, and the flocum discussion went on.

In the mountains, if I need to clean my gun, I pull the load, pee down the
barrel, rinse with water and swab it out with some sort of dead animal
grease.=20
It's what they had to work with, it is still readily available, and it still
works.  At home I use scalding water and soap and then treat all wood and
metal
with the period correct product I make and sell.  A real soap like Castile,
not
expensive detergent and water in a plastic bottle.  For lube I use sperm oil
because I still have a tiny dab from the last of Naval Stores. =20

If I was going to make a gun solvent I'd start with shaved soap, vinegar and
alcohol.  Never found it necessary, and mostly a damn nuisance unless you
carry
a tackle box onto the firing line.  When shooting for fun I've found a=
 chewed
spit patch swabs the bore well enough to load another shot. =20

>From studying many old guns it seems cleaning them was not a popular hobby.=
=20
Probably because they kept them loaded.  In the 30,000 or so recipes in my
collection (100's of which deal with cleaning things) I do not remember ever
seeing a period recipe for gun cleaning solvent.

I really don't care what anyone else uses or does for personal amusement. =
 If
it isn't of the period (or the most reasonable alternative to that no longer
available) it has no place on this list.  For example; sperm oil is not
available, jojoba is the best substitute.

This is the A.M.M. Historic Discussion List.  A little off topic=
 conversation
offends no one.  Extensive discussion of modernist thinking I find counter=
 to
our purpose.

John...

If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
john <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist
Date: 17 Jun 1998 00:16:46 -0400

John, I have always had the utmost respect for your knowledge
of the old ways, but my respect has way increased upon discovering
that you use bear sperm for patch lube.  I don't even want to know
how you come by this substance, but suffice it to say that I am
impressed!


> In silver tip country I load 105 gr. FF under 14 - 00 buck size swan sh=
ot
> under
> a (bear/sperm oiled) patched .69 round ball for wading.  Ain't that muc=
h
> fun to
> shoot, up close it never misses.
>

> John...
>
> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
> John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: elk antler
Date: 16 Jun 1998 22:53:10 -0600

We carry elk antler
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patch lube and cleaner
Date: 17 Jun 1998 00:33:57 -0700

Pendleton,

I couldn't have said it better.  Actually I didn't even say it as well as you
did --  I was the fellow blowing the whistle on peroxide and with the rusting
Lyman.  I will try to work with just hot water for a spell, and see how that
works for keeping the bore 'seasoned' and still clean enough to load
gracefully.  I too have tried a bunch of recipes, and I don't yet feel I have
settled into the right way for me.  I promised Hawk Pierce and some others that
I would do some experimenting with BP and Pyrodex, and after my original
posting where I merely mentioned the P word I got a very good idea of how many
folks around here feel very strongly about BP!

Thanks for the input, (particularly as I agree so well with you), the whole
point of this online community is discussion of mountain man era issues, and I
for one find something to learn from virtually every posting.

Gary

yellow rose/pendleton wrote:

> Folks,
> Now some of you are going to label me a purist, but here's my two cents
> worth on the cleaning of  blackpowder guns. Peroxide is very corrosive ! It
> is used in some industries to etch metal on purpose. So why in the world
> would want to put it down the bore of your prize rifle or smoothbore. There
> are many very effective commercial blackpowder solvents, and I have tried
> most of them
> at one time or another. The Murphy's Oil Soap reciepes the 409 stuff the
> windshield washer fluid I've tried it all. Then it occured to me that our
> forefathers didn't carry around a bar of lye soap to clean their guns. They
> used just plain water, and that is all I have used for the last six years
> with very good results.They washed or wiped their guns out with water dried
> them well then greased or oiled the bore, and reloaded. The key to any
> cleaning method is thoroughly drying the bore after cleaing then using a
> good lube to prevent rust from forming. To backtrack for a moment, stop and
> think about it would you use peroxide to clean your best castiron skillet ?
> If you treat your gun bore the same as you would you best skillet you won't
> go wrong.
>  To the fellow with the Lyman rifle that continued to rust. All gun barrels
> are not the same. That is to say some metals are more porous than others.
> That is not a knock on Lyman guns. Lyman makes a fine rifle that is
> probably one of the best out of the box guns around, but their barrels are
> a bit more porous than some others and therefore require a little more
> maintence. The bottom line is you have to learn what works best in your
> gun. Another tip is two or three days after you have cleaned your gun and
> put it away run a patch down the bore just to check it to make sure
> everything is up to snuff.In high humidity areas like ours this is a very
> good idea. I can't emphasize enough, you have to dry the bore completely  !
> Now I fully expect to hear from a whole flock of folks who have used their
> favorite concoction for gun cleaning for years and wouldn't change no
> matter what, and that is fine I'm not trying to condemn or change anyone's
> methods. In my experience when we get away from the ways of our forefathers
> we are usually messing up. That's my two cents worth.
>
> Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum tanning
Date: 17 Jun 1998 06:36:10 -0700

>here's a question for you folks. I've got 4 hides that I'm in the
>process of alum tanning. I dehaired them, soaked them in the tanning
>solution and now I'm staking and stretching them. The thing that I've
>noticed is this. When I dehaired them, ashes weren't doing the job very
>well so I switched to lye. Now I notice that the one hide that I
>dehaired with ashes alone is staking and stretching much easier than the
>3 that had lye added. Any thoughts?
>
>
>Kirk Mill
>
>(just a pilgrim from PA)

Kirk
Why use ashes or lye when water alone works fine without the ash or caustic
lye.
We send out six to eight very soft, fine quality hides a week using NOTHING
BUT water and brains in the process.   Sure theres more than one way to
skin a cat, but as we sit here daily reading about all those ways and all
the additional ingreedients we realize there are alot more folks who write
books about doing hides than there are folks who have it down to the fine
art of producing six to eight quality hides a week.
Contact me personally and I will email you our instructions if you are
interested.    Longtrail



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Stoddard <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #87
Date: 17 Jun 1998 09:46:52 -0500

Period correctness aside, I had the pleasure of shooting with a friend
who uses canolla oil as a patch lube.  I was using a borrowed .36 cal.
rifle.  After 40 plus shots, the ramrod was going down just as easily
as the first.  Just a drop for each ball on the back side of the
loading block is all it took.

Also, for the kids who want to follow in the footsteps of the
VOYAGEUR, William Durbin has written a pretty good novel called "The
Broken Blade"  It is a good starter book for getting information on
the life of a voyageur.
After reading it, I am wanting to do more research.  It would make and
interesting persona and very appropriate for me here in the Great
Lakes area.

Thanks to all for your input and humor.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 17 Jun 1998 08:29:16 -0700

To John Kramer and the list'
With respect to the below writings;
Due to some strange workings of the computer god, John has attributed the comments
of someone else to me. What appears below is not something I wrote. I did respond
to what first appears below and my response was similar in thread to what John is
saying about the use of modern techniques and such. I use hot water in my barrels
when it is available for the same reason that I use hot water to clean my cast
iron skillets. I have no proof other than results but it seems that using natural
oils and greases in my barrels and cleaning with nothing but water (I agree that
cold water would/will work and may be appropreate under some conditions), making
sure the barrel is dry and re-greasing afterwards is an effective and authentic
way to maintain my muzzleloading fire arms.

No one needs do as John and I do. Like he says this is a historical list and I
agree that discussions should deal with the historical accuracy of any topic.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

John Kramer wrote:

> At 03:38 AM 6/16/98 -0400, capt. rodger lati wrote:
> >ive used your methods for some 25yrs yes ways of old. im trying to have fun
> >hear but get poked at by this and that . we are getting out of hand  hear im
> >notadvocating . the use of modern products hear. but we do take our modern
> >medication we dont have scurvy and head lice. paracites in the intestines. i
> >think we can reinact and then we can have fun also and not be self concious
> >when we go to a meet and some finger pointing person say thats not period.
> >when you take the fun out of somthing with  puting someone down it  is not
> fun
> >anymore. i do the best i can with what i got crome tan bucks and the lot and
> >to hell with wtih the finger pointing. i respecet a person that does it the
> >right way. a purist. they keep it the way it was some one has to rember how
> >was.its is one of my pet peeves. im not a purist but i injoy going to a meet
> >and watch and learn the old ways. do you think im going to throw away my
> >200.00 leather bucks just because some one says its not period no way. im
> >keeping them i made them my self me an the dear it took some time . i
> followed
> >an lod patern.  though !!!!!!! im 54 yrs young and when i was 10 yrs a
> >mountian man said get your self some skins and come play.there was no mention
> >of crome tan or this and that. or you cant come play if you dont. thats ben a
> >few yrs ago. im still playing and maby some day ill have a coveted set of
> bain
> >tans and ill make them my self. use it up wear it out >make do or do without.
>
> Capt. Lati,
>
> I was trying to keep things a little humorous.  To try and follow up on the
> wry
> humor in Jon Townes' posting.  Too bad you took it personal.  Guess I tend to
> be more humorless.
>
> Scurvy was cured by the 1700's with citrus at sea and rose hips in the
> mountains, head lice is still a problem and I've had Guardia in my intestines
> for years.  I don't take modern medications.
>
> There was a point to my posting and to his.
>
> The point is: this list is a historic discussion group supported by members of
> A.M.M.  Modern techniques have no place here when reasonable period
> alternatives exist.  It has nothing to do with any public rendezvous, nor
> is it
> an attempt to dictate only what is right for everybody.  No one is trying to
> ruin your fun. I and others are trying to keep these discussions on track.
>
> We are all guests of Dean Rudy here, I would like to honor what he has set out
> as the purpose and intent of this list.
>
> We do try and sort out what may be more correct for those individuals who
> continually strive to learn more about the old ways.  Discussions of
> irrelevant
> modern expedients do not further these efforts. expedients which seem to have
> their own problems.
>
> This is not an extension of the NMLRA, who don't care if you wear naugahyde.
> They don't care about preserving history.  They do care about nickel and
> diming
> the participants to death.  I quit over 20 years ago.
>
> We are all learning and in this world there will always be accommodations
> forced upon us.  Exactly right is a very elusive concept.  We know much more
> than was known 20 years ago, there is much more yet to learn.  We do not learn
> how things were if we do not do things the old way.
>
> I still have the rotted remains of my first set of commercial tan skins and
> those of a braintan set as well.  Getting ready to make another, my fifth or
> sixth set.
>
> I have never said anything against commercial tan leather, because there was
> commercial tanning being done in the early nineteenth century.  Some
> commercial
> tan inevitably made its way to rendezvous and braintan is just not available
> for everyone.
>
> I commented because flocum generated a ridiculous number of postings on a
> subject totally inappropriate.  How tough can it be to mix 3 or 4 simple
> common
> ingredients and do it close to right?  A simple recipe was nicely presented,
> promptly ignored, and the flocum discussion went on.
>
> In the mountains, if I need to clean my gun, I pull the load, pee down the
> barrel, rinse with water and swab it out with some sort of dead animal
> grease.
> It's what they had to work with, it is still readily available, and it still
> works.  At home I use scalding water and soap and then treat all wood and
> metal
> with the period correct product I make and sell.  A real soap like Castile,
> not
> expensive detergent and water in a plastic bottle.  For lube I use sperm oil
> because I still have a tiny dab from the last of Naval Stores.
>
> If I was going to make a gun solvent I'd start with shaved soap, vinegar and
> alcohol.  Never found it necessary, and mostly a damn nuisance unless you
> carry
> a tackle box onto the firing line.  When shooting for fun I've found a chewed
> spit patch swabs the bore well enough to load another shot.
>
> >From studying many old guns it seems cleaning them was not a popular hobby.
> Probably because they kept them loaded.  In the 30,000 or so recipes in my
> collection (100's of which deal with cleaning things) I do not remember ever
> seeing a period recipe for gun cleaning solvent.
>
> I really don't care what anyone else uses or does for personal amusement.  If
> it isn't of the period (or the most reasonable alternative to that no longer
> available) it has no place on this list.  For example; sperm oil is not
> available, jojoba is the best substitute.
>
> This is the A.M.M. Historic Discussion List.  A little off topic conversation
> offends no one.  Extensive discussion of modernist thinking I find counter to
> our purpose.
>
> John...
>
> If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
> john <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist
Date: 17 Jun 1998 12:58:50 -0500

At 12:16 AM 6/17/98 -0400, DCard wrote:
>John, I have always had the utmost respect for your knowledge
>of the old ways, but my respect has way increased upon discovering
>that you use bear sperm for patch lube.=A0 I don't even want to know
>how you come by this substance, but suffice it to say that I am
>impressed!
>
>
>> In silver tip country I load 105 gr. FF under 14 - 00 buck size swan shot
>> under
>> a (bear/sperm oiled) patched .69 round ball for wading.=A0 Ain't that=
 much
>> fun to
>> shoot, up close it never misses.
DCard,

Read that bear OR sperm oil.  Very different.  Used the same.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist
Date: 17 Jun 1998 05:14:31 -0500 (CDT)

Is it not possible that John is using a mixture of bear oil and  whale oil?
Both are available, althought the whale oil is rare and on the far side of
expensive. A fairly large quantity was available last year from a collection
dating from the 40's or 50's.  A number of us purchased a fair quantity,
both for display and use.  It is a fine oil.  Burns clean and is also
superior lube.   If, however, it is bear sperm, THAT is a collectible worth
mentioning.  Paul


>John, I have always had the utmost respect for your knowledge
>of the old ways, but my respect has way increased upon discovering
>that you use bear sperm for patch lube.  I don't even want to know
>how you come by this substance, but suffice it to say that I am
>impressed!
>
>
>> In silver tip country I load 105 gr. FF under 14 - 00 buck size swan shot
>> under
>> a (bear/sperm oiled) patched .69 round ball for wading.  Ain't that much
>> fun to
>> shoot, up close it never misses.
>>
>
>> John...
>>
>> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>> John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Search for List Member
Date: 17 Jun 1998 11:33:30 -0500 (CDT)

Sorry to impose this on the list, but I need to reach Michael Branson.  If
you get this message Mike, please e-mail me with your address so we may chat
regarding some Morgan prints and other matters.  If anyone else has his
e-mail address, would appreciate being provided the information.

Regards,  Paul
Paul W. Jones
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 17 Jun 1998 15:07:40 -0700

Charlie;

You make some good points with ref: to using even cold water to clean a
dirty barrel. I live in eastern WA where it is so dry that even sasquatch
only pee once a month. I use hot water at home or in the field (in camp)
when available because I see treating the inside of the barrel as
comparable to how I believe cast iron skillets should be treated. Pour hot
water down the barrel and scrub with linen tow on a tow worm, dry with a
fresh ball of tow on the worm and liberally lube with grease as in rendered
animal fat. Perhaps because of our dry climate I have been lucky in not
having the oxidization that might occur in a damper climate if warmer than
ambient temp water is used. In any case thorough drying and thorough
lubrication is the key for me and is how I believe it was done in the
'era'.

No, I do not think that a frontiersman of old would have make a fire in
hostile country just to unfoul a fouled gun! He probably would have done as
John Kramer says he does and pull the load, (if possible) and just pee down
the barrel, wipe it dry and reload. I have never done that myself but I
would not hesitate to do so if the need were there. Urine is a lost less
corrosive than some of the chemicals that have been advocated for barrel
cleaning, (as long as it is not left in too long). I have been known to
spit down the barrel of a loaded but not primed gun when loading was
getting tough. I also put a lip lock on the barrel and blow through the
touch hole after each shot to eliminate sparks, reduce fouling and to
assure myself that the touch hole is clear. I know this is not permitted by
the NMLRA but that's OK cause there are a lot if things I and NMLRA don't
agree on. I also do not advocate any one copy my methods if they are not
comfortable with how I do things. And I do not care what any one else does
as long as they keep their gun pointed in a safe direction.

Hope that cleans things up a mite.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

Charlie P. Webb wrote:

> I have some questions, and a few thoughts.
> Why do you use hot water to clean your firearm?
> Do you believe that every time a woodsman wanted
> to clean  his fire arm, he stopped built a fire and heated
> water?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum tanning
Date: 17 Jun 1998 09:48:56 -0600

I anot sure about what the ashes are doing in comparison to the lye. Both
assist with the break down of the proteins that hold the hair folicle. They
are "basic" a Ph of 10. The lye is a strong base. Hides will puff up when
introduced to a strong base. You MUST nuturalize them or if exposed to any
moisture in the future, they may fall apart. Most types of acids will
nuturalize them. In our commercial tannery we use Amonium Sulfate. It is
nothing more than fertilizer. The hide can just be washed repeatly with
soap and water too. just takes longer.

Just some thoughts
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 16 Jun 1998 23:35:57 -0700

Just a note on the properties of Hydrogen Peroxide.  From my safety training for
work at a surface mine back when I was just out of high school, we were informed
that  HP in concentrations above 5 or 10 percent will cause organic matter to
combust after a period of time related to concentration.  Eg.  A 10 percent
solution dripped on your leather shoe at the start of your shift will burst into
flame just as you start filling your car with Gasoline at lunch.  Higher
Concentrations will simply melt through everything up to the chemical resistant
sole of your boot.  What you buy at the store is 3% and safe, But still really bad
stuff.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 17 Jun 1998 18:26:53 -0500

This is a resend of a message I posted earlier today which hasn't shown up=
 on
the list.  Sorry if you get two.

At 08:29 AM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>To John Kramer and the list'
>With respect to the below writings;
>Due to some strange workings of the computer god, John has attributed the
comments
>of someone else to me.

Capt. Lahti,

Sorry, I picked up the name from the bottom of the posting quoted.=A0 Looked
like
the writers sig.=A0 I see now it was even spelled wrong.

On looking back at the headers I see the post I was responding to came from
ITWHEELER on 6/16/98.

My mistake.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Milton Sublette's writings
Date: 17 Jun 1998 22:08:53 -0600

At 07:13 PM 6/16/98 -0500, Matt wrote:
>
>I belive the Sublette papers are on microfilm just as the AM. FUR CO. and the
>Robert Campbell papers are.  They are a costly set.  The Campbell papers
>alone are about $3000, I think.  If any library has them in Utah it would be
>Brigham Young University.  They have an extensive fur trade collection: some
>of the W. Ferris stuff, Missouri papers on film, the Campbell collection on
>film, etc.  Give em a call or contact Fred Gownas at the history department
>there.
>
>Matt Despain
>

Hi,

There's a set of microfilms at the U of Ut, that includes the Chouteau
papers, the Am Fur Papers, and the Campbell papers, but no Sublette papers.
 It's the University Publications set described at
http://www.us.net/upa/guides/west.htm  (sure wish I could afford a set of
those!).   Does anyone else publish microfilms of other MHS fur trade
manuscripts?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum tanning
Date: 17 Jun 1998 13:20:02 -0700

I wasn't the one who posted on this topic, but I would certainly like to learn
about a water and brains method!  Clearly there have been a whole mess of
postings on these topics recently, but your description appeals to me as it
sounds like the sort of approach used before fancy white man's ways.

Gary Bell

Longtrail wrote:

> >here's a question for you folks. I've got 4 hides that I'm in the
> >process of alum tanning. I dehaired them, soaked them in the tanning
> >solution and now I'm staking and stretching them. The thing that I've
> >noticed is this. When I dehaired them, ashes weren't doing the job very
> >well so I switched to lye. Now I notice that the one hide that I
> >dehaired with ashes alone is staking and stretching much easier than the
> >3 that had lye added. Any thoughts?
> >
> >
> >Kirk Mill
> >
> >(just a pilgrim from PA)
>
> Kirk
> Why use ashes or lye when water alone works fine without the ash or caustic
> lye.
> We send out six to eight very soft, fine quality hides a week using NOTHING
> BUT water and brains in the process.   Sure theres more than one way to
> skin a cat, but as we sit here daily reading about all those ways and all
> the additional ingreedients we realize there are alot more folks who write
> books about doing hides than there are folks who have it down to the fine
> art of producing six to eight quality hides a week.
> Contact me personally and I will email you our instructions if you are
> interested.    Longtrail



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 17 Jun 1998 23:56:58 -0500

At 11:35 PM 6/16/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Just a note on the properties of Hydrogen Peroxide.=A0 From my safety=
 training
for
>work at a surface mine back when I was just out of high school, we were
informed
>that=A0 HP in concentrations above 5 or 10 percent will cause organic=
 matter to
>combust after a period of time related to concentration.=A0 Eg.=A0 A 10=
 percent
>solution dripped on your leather shoe at the start of your shift will burst
into
>flame just as you start filling your car with Gasoline at lunch.=A0 Higher
>Concentrations will simply melt through everything up to the chemical
resistant
>sole of your boot.=A0 What you buy at the store is 3% and safe, But still
really
bad
>stuff.
>=20

I can only date Hydrogen Peroxide back to about 1870.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
=20
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 18 Jun 1998 02:45:18 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-17 01:24:53 EDT, you write:

<< Why do you use hot water to clean your firearm?

Because both guys who have built rifles for me said to.  Ok -- that was kind
of a "wise guy" answer, but they've both explained to me that by using hot
water -- hot enough to get the barrel to the point it's hard to hang on to --
helps dry the barrel quicker meaning less chance of moisture left in the
barrel when oiling/greasing the bore.  Sure, you CAN use moisture displacing
lubes like RIG, WD-40, etc, etc, but since we're so concerned what is
historicaly correct, that type chemical would be inappropriate.  True -- rapid
drying in a hot barrel DOES lead to minor oxidation/rust, but the immediate
oil/grease patch will take care of it.  Moisture trapped in the barrel over a
long period of time can lead to a more serious oxidation/rust problem, so it's
important to have the barrel totaly dry before oiling or greasing the bore.

< Do you believe that every time a woodsman wanted
 to clean  his fire arm, he stopped built a fire and heated
 water?

Of course not!  He probably didn't even consider hot water for cleaning his
rifle/gun.  Cold water worked -- & still does.  If I have to clean my rifle,
tradegun, pistol, & the wife's rifle & pistol, my hot water is cold before I'm
done.  I just try to start with a different weapon each time I actualy go to
the botheration to start with hot water.  I think while the water is still
hot, it seems to clean slightly faster, but not realy worth the effort for
that reason alone.

 < One that has lived long and works well for target shooting is Moose Milk,
it is very
 inexpensive and when your whole family shoots one needs to get by as
economically as he can.  Moose milk,   I make itup in a twenty four ounce
bottle, ( because that is what I have) one ounce of water soluble oil to
twenty ounces of ambient water.  then to the whole mixture add two ounces of
Murphy's Oil Soap,  (soap, not a detergent!)  Shake it up and use it.

Huh?  & I got jumped on about Mac's 13??????  Basicaly the same stuff 'cept
it's premixed & ready to use.  You give the NAPA part number for WSO -- if you
check the MSDS for Mac's /NAPA 13 -- it's 2 primary ingredients are WSO &
water.  At least you didn't call me a "heritic" for using automotive chemicals
in my guns.

<  Hydrogen Peroxide is an oxygenator
 that when used as a gun cleaner causes instant oxidation
 on any part of the un browned barrel it touches, meaning
 in this case the barrels bore.

Probably the most corrosive "non-acid" for iron or steel besides chlorine.
Another quirk about Hydrogen Peroxide -- it MUST be kept out of direct
sunlight or it breaks down to water.  If you store it in a clear instead of
brown bottle, it'll go "flat" in a mater of days, so you're realy back to
using a water based cleaner again.  You mention using 'peroxide for "aging" --
have you tired lemon or tomato juice?

 < I have no idea or intention that what I have written
 here should change  what anyone is presently doing, I simply
 would like for  you to think about it, possibly try it, if you are
 totally happy with your present methods fine, shoot center and
 have fun! Any cleaning method is far better than not cleaning
 at all.  The quality of many of todays replicas will probably allow
 them to be around and useable long after  we'ins has gone under.

Well put.  That was my intention when I wrote about Mac's 13.  Try it if you
want to, but not just because I use it.  It may not even work for you, & it it
doesn't, at $1.89 a bottle you're not out much.  I've tried various
concoctions labeled "Moose Milk" that didn't work for me -- maybe climate had
something to do with it.  Your version with the oil soap just might work here.
I was totaly put out by the reaction I got --- I was trying to be helpful with
a tip that works for me.  I thought the burning at the stake was a bit much --
especialy coming from someone advocating the peroxide mix.

< The water soluble oil is actually very similar to
 some of the available lubricants used thru the mid 1700's through
 the 1860's.>>

Someone mentioned jojoba oil as a substitute for sperm oil.  I begged &
borrowed a few drops of sperm oil once for my flint lock ---- excelent stuff,
but awfully hard to find.  Let's face it -- some of the stuff that was arround
in the 1700 - 1800's ain't available any more -- so what do we do?  Substitute
with the closest we can find like WSO & jojoba or go with stuff that's still
available that doesn't work as well?  Maybe we should start a new thread
concerning lock lubricants -- what's a good period lock lube besides sperm
oil?  I've been using the non-period stuff like Hopies gun oil, Burchwood
Casey's, even Slick 50 & motor oil -- it all works, but not like sperm oil.
I'm presently having a new rifle built that will be a Fredrick Sell
reproduction & with it, I'd like to keep it's accouterments as historicaly
accurate as possible -- meaning tallow for patch lube instead of the Mac's I
use in most of my rifles -- among other things.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum tanning
Date: 18 Jun 1998 08:42:31 -0700

Gary, If you decide to give it a try and have any questions, feel free to
write and ask.
         Longtrail



                   O   Sundog Traders    O

                      Joseph Dinsmore, M.T. & Victoria Longtrail D.
                                     POB 182   Winnett, Montana    59087
                            406-429-7828   or   [e-mail]


                                        Brain Tanning
                                   Less Instruction With More Results
                                                            by
                                   Joseph Dinsmore & Victoria Longtrail D.


!.  Flesh the deer hide.  All you are concerned with is getting the meat
and fat off.  Then place the hide in water and soak over night.  Make sure
the hide   is completely soaked. ( the greener the hide the easier to
dehair)

2.  Dehairing :   Take the hide out of the water and place it over a beam
and dehair.  The objective here is to get the brown layer (epidermis)  off.
Keep in mind the fresher the hide the easier it is to dehair.   If you are
using a "flint" or dried hide  with the hair still on, soak it overnight
and flesh it again and you will notice the hide whitening out as you flesh.
When done, throw it back in the water overnight. It soaks much faster.
Dehair the next day.

3.  This is what I call pre-braining.  Its better to  pre-brain the hide
after you dehair while the hide is still pliable rather than letting it go
to rawhide.  After you de-hair the hide put the hide in either an old brain
solution or a new one.  If it goes to rawhide, soak overnight in cold water
and then stretch by hand.  You will see the hide whitening out (not
totally).   The objective here is to open the pores ( don't work all day it
only takes a couple of minutes)  A metal strapping band ( the kind used to
bundle wood with) works the best for me.   You can soak the hide  in the
brain solution for as little as twenty minutes or over night.  I prefer
over night.  Brain solution recipe is at the end of the article.

4.  After pre-braining take the hide and hang it out to dry.  Its not
necessary to wring out the hide  Don't fold the hide on itself, prop it
open with sticks or whatever, or hang it straignt up and down.

5.  Soak the dried hide in COLD water over night.  Lace the hide on a
frame, this is the pre-stretching phase. ( I emphasize cold water because
the hide is plyable enough to put on the frame and whiten out.)  Before I
begin staking the hide, I sew all the holes.  I do it at this point because
then there is no pucker, I use artificial sinew (personal preference).
All you are trying to do is whiten the hide out by staking it.   The
weather dictates how often the hide needs to be staked (remember, your not
trying to soften it your just trying to whiten it).   In recent experiments
it seems to stake out better when working side to side rather than up and
down.  You will notice that when staking the hide, it sometimes starts  to
soften up, if you like, keep working it, I don't.

6.  Pre-smoking.    After the hide is whitened and dried out, smoke it.  If
you think about it, if a white buckskin is smoked and gets wet, it softens
back up with very little work.  Why can't you  do it a pre-stretched hide!
I smoke the hide for three hours in a smoke house. (its nothing more than a
box made of four sheets of 4X8 plywood  and a roof.)  I hang my hides
horizontal about three foot from my smoke pot.  The thing to keep in mind
is don't bake the hides. Keep a warm smoke (punky cedar is in my
experience, the best wood to use but you can use any kind of punky wood.)

7.  After smoking, put the hide back in the brain solution.  I leave the
hide in it for thirty minutes to an hour.  Take it out and rub it over the
band (I do this to make sure that there are no hard spots in the hide, if
there are hard spots, then soak it a bit longer.)  Put it back in the brain
solution, you can either leave it for three hours or over night.

8. Take the hide out of the solution, it is your choice of either putting
it through clothes wringer which is what I use, or wringing it out in any
method you choose.   At this point I most often lace the hide onto the
frame and work it soft and dry.  Usually the hips, rump and neck are the
last to dry.   Don't stop working on the hide untill those spots are dry
and softened or they will harden in the middle.  If at any time you have to
stop working on the hide, you can freeze it wrapped in a plastic bag until
you can get back to it. It requires  you to be lazy. Not real lazy. It IS
possible to overwork the hide.

Brain Solution Recipe:   One cow brain, two gallons of water.  Make it look
like a weak campbells tomato soup but don't eat it.  Heat the solution
until warm, NOT hot. The beauty of this pre-smoking method is that you can
tan more hides with one cow brain.  You will notice if you use this same
solution (add more water when needed) the hides will get easier and easier
to sofen out and the solution smells more like smoke than brains.
Sometimes I have to add another cow brain depending on how much additional
water I have added.  I have found that rain water works best when making
the brain solution.  Any kind of chemical in the water, such as chlorine
seems to have an adverse effect.  I have done as many as twenty-two to
twenty-four hides with two cow brains.

Feel free to call or e-mail with any questions you may have.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 18 Jun 1998 20:01:28 -0500

At 12:44 PM 6/16/98 -0600, Charlie P. Webb wrote:

> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The water soluble oil is actually very similar to=20
>some of the available lubricants used thru the mid 1700's through
>the 1860's=A0=20

I am curious as to specifically which lubricants you refer to. =20

The earliest reference to a W.S.O. I've found speaks of saponifying mineral
oil
with alkali soap and water to produce a Water Soluble Oil.  An early 20th
century technique with a petroleum base oil.  I have found no early=
 references
to this technique being used with lard oil or any other oil.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
=20
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist
Date: 18 Jun 1998 16:42:26 -0500

At 12:58 PM 6/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 12:16 AM 6/17/98 -0400, DCard wrote:
>>John, I have always had the utmost respect for your knowledge
>>of the old ways, but my respect has way increased upon discovering
>>that you use bear sperm for patch lube.=A0 I don't even want to know
>>how you come by this substance, but suffice it to say that I am
>>impressed!
>>
>>
>>> In silver tip country I load 105 gr. FF under 14 - 00 buck size swan=
 shot
>>> under
>>> a (bear/sperm oiled) patched .69 round ball for wading.=A0 Ain't that=
 much
>>> fun to
>>> shoot, up close it never misses.
>DCard,
>
I thought maybe this could use a little more elaboration.

Why is sperm oil the best?

Because of its oxidizing qualities, or lack thereof.=A0 Sperm oil never=
 really
dries out and barely thickens on long exposure to air.=A0 Jojoba is next=
 best in
this quality.=A0 Bear oil is real good.=A0 They both cling well to metal=
 surfaces.

Paul Jones may have had a good idea about mixing them, extending the little
sperm oil available by diluting with bear oil, perhaps improving the=
 qualities
of the bear oil.=A0 I may have to try it.

The reason this is an advantage is I can lube up strips of patch cloth and=
 cut
buckskin wads (cut squares of scrap strung on a rawhide thong hanging off=
 the
side of my pouch) ahead of time and not worry about them drying out, always
having a light oiled patch or shot wad that never fouls the powder.=A0 I=
 just
whack off what I need as I need it and use it with no further prep.=A0 I als=
o
use
them to wipe the gun down.=A0 Keeps patch and wadding handy, ready to use.=
=A0 When
used to lube moving metal parts the oil stays where it is needed and is=
 little
effected by time, temperature or exposure to air.

I suggest the use of jojoba not because it was used during the period but
because it is derived by methods used during the period for processing=
 similar
materials.=A0 It is a pressed or extracted oil processed much like linseed.=
=A0 It
is not a new chemical concoction though it wasn't extracted and its=
 properties
examined until about 1920.=A0 The harvesting of sperm whales should no=
 longer be
done and this provides a simple one to one substitution with the next best
thing.=A0 One compromise to help preserve a specie should not beget an=
 anything
goes attitude.

Sweet oil, linseed oil, whale oil, bear oil or the rendered fat of any=
 animal
could also be used.=A0 They are not as suitable because they do oxidize more
rapidly and can gum up the works.=A0 Some more quickly than others.

Other period terms for sperm oil are cetaceum and spermaceti.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
=20
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 19 Jun 1998 07:17:10 -0700

Specifically to John K,

Last week I was in Portsmouth, Va and stopped in a rere book store. Thought
you'ld be interested in a hand written journal from 1810 I found (but did
not buy) there. It is a Journal type book (originally sold with blank
pages), hand written, lists recipied for paints, varnishes, stains,
cleaners etc... The asking price was $150 U.S.. Out of my budget. I know
I'll regret not picking it up so here's the next best thing...

I'll get the adress to anyone interested in making this purchase on the
condition that they transcribe the info found within and publish it to this
list, I'm sure we can all benefit.

If no one responds, I'll mull it over and if I decide I can no longer live
happily without it I'll have to start saving my Halfpennies. Then, yes,
I'll be happy to do the transcribing.

There was another book, similar, but bound in vellum, with recipies for
food and liquor mixes. the list on that was $165 U.S. and dated 1796, I
believe

Vic

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist
Date: 19 Jun 1998 05:43:49 -0500 (CDT)

John:  I thought "spermaceti" is the white waxey substance taken from the=20
head cavity of the sperm whale.  Was used for pharmacuticals, etc.  I have=
=20
about a pound.  The sperm whale oil I have is rendered, and is a clear=20
liquid.  Ron Harris and I purchased a gallon some time back.  You are very=
=20
correct, it is an excellent lube, and does not seem to dry out.  Regards, =
=20
Paul =20



>Because of its oxidizing qualities, or lack thereof.=A0 Sperm oil never=
 really
>dries out and barely thickens on long exposure to air.=A0 Jojoba is next=
 best in
>this quality.=A0 Bear oil is real good.=A0 They both cling well to metal=
 surfaces.
>
>Paul Jones may have had a good idea about mixing them, extending the little
>sperm oil available by diluting with bear oil, perhaps improving the=
 qualities
>of the bear oil.=A0 I may have to try it.
>
>The reason this is an advantage is I can lube up strips of patch cloth and=
 cut
>buckskin wads (cut squares of scrap strung on a rawhide thong hanging off=
 the
>side of my pouch) ahead of time and not worry about them drying out, always
>having a light oiled patch or shot wad that never fouls the powder.=A0 I=
 just
>whack off what I need as I need it and use it with no further prep.=A0 I=
 also
>use
>them to wipe the gun down.=A0 Keeps patch and wadding handy, ready to use.=
=A0 When
>used to lube moving metal parts the oil stays where it is needed and is=
 little
>effected by time, temperature or exposure to air.
>
>I suggest the use of jojoba not because it was used during the period but
>because it is derived by methods used during the period for processing=
 similar
>materials.=A0 It is a pressed or extracted oil processed much like=
 linseed.=A0 It
>is not a new chemical concoction though it wasn't extracted and its=
 properties
>examined until about 1920.=A0 The harvesting of sperm whales should no=
 longer be
>done and this provides a simple one to one substitution with the next best
>thing.=A0 One compromise to help preserve a specie should not beget an=
 anything
>goes attitude.
>
>Sweet oil, linseed oil, whale oil, bear oil or the rendered fat of any=
 animal
>could also be used.=A0 They are not as suitable because they do oxidize=
 more
>rapidly and can gum up the works.=A0 Some more quickly than others.
>
>Other period terms for sperm oil are cetaceum and spermaceti.
>
>John...
>
>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
>=20
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <[e-mail]>=20
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube
Date: 19 Jun 1998 11:08:47 -0600 (CST)

John, and the list,

What about a black powder revolver lube for those of us who also do periods
outside the Rondy era?  What is a period-correct (1840s-70s) lube that
would work.  You know those chambers get warm in the summer and I've had a
heck of a time keeping them sealed on hot days.  When the revolver is in
it's holster on my belt, the chambers are pointing down and if the grease
is melted and flowing, out it comes.  I've had a few chain-firings that
way.  I'd like to use some substance that would seal the chambers and not
leak out.  It should also lube the bore when fired.  For now I use oiled
wonder wads, but they're expensive.  Who's got another idea?  Is beeswax a
good choice?  Does it lube the bore?

Thanks,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Charlie P. Webb)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 19 Jun 1998 13:01:50 -0600

 John Kramer > writes:

 Charlie P. Webb wrote:
>> The water soluble oil is actually very similar to
>>some of the available lubricants used thru the mid 1700's through
>>the 1860's
>I am curious as to specifically which lubricants you refer to.

Howdy John K,
What I meant specifically was WSO works as a patch lube in
muzzle loading firearms, its characteristics when used for this
purpose are very similar  to "Whale oil"  and animal rendered
oil such as bear.  I have used both whale sperm and bear oil
off and on since 1947,  In my firearms (some original some
replicas)  there is little if any difference between patches lubed
with  sperm  oil, bear oil,  jojoba or WSO.  The accuracy of a
a  firearm is not one bit better when sperm oil is used as a patch
lube than it is with WSO or one of the many other lubes folks
sing the praises of.  As a oxidation or rust prevention  WSO
is a poor choice, here the sperm oil etc. shine.  For Target
shooting I get more and quicker fouling   using sperm oil etc.
because a thin film of oil/ grease is deposited to the
walls of the barrel bore  as the patch/ball combination is
firmly seated on the powder. When fired the residual oil/grease
seem to collect and hold the crud. This is no problem when
hunting,  and I do use them for that purpose.  After a target
relay of five shots the fouling must be wiped out.  WSO  or
"Moose Milk"used as a patch lube does not  do this.  The
ring of fouling just above the chamber also does not occur.
I apologize for confusing the the issue,  I simply was
referring to WSO/Moose Milk as being similar in use as a
patch lube to  the known lubes from the 1700s thru the 1860s.
Jojoba  has worked  well for me, how ever I have no source to replenish
what little I have on hand.  I  just don't know where
to get it here in Colorado.  I have rendered bear oil myself
over the years and used it,  and  also have a gallon or so of
Whale oil that I horde. After many thousands of rounds in
competion  and time spent testing,  I find as a patch lube they
have no greater merit than "MooseMilk".
    The closest thing that I have found to matching
whale oil is a lube called Ballistol,  in use it even feels a lot
like whale oil.  It is supposed to have been developed in
Germany around the turn of the century.  I  have not
concluded testing it as a patch lube,  but it does look
promising.  In the few months I have been using it as a
gun lube, it has not dried out  and no rust can be detected
inside or out.  Plus that, it is bio-degradeable.
     Again I am sorry when writing  my post, I diden't
make myself understood.   Hope all have a good day, keep
your powder dry, regardless of what patch lube you use,
and thank the lord for hind sights!
Respectfully,

C Webb
CC CO

>The earliest reference to a W.S.O. I've found speaks of saponifying
>mineral
>oil
>with alkali soap and water to produce a Water Soluble Oil.  An early
>20th
>century technique with a petroleum base oil.  I have found no early
> references
>to this technique being used with lard oil or any other oil.
>
>John...
>
>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
>=20
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <[e-mail]>=20
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 19 Jun 1998 14:15:38 -0500

At 07:17 AM 6/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Specifically to John K,
>
>Last week I was in Portsmouth, Va and stopped in a rere book store. Thought
>you'ld be interested in a hand written journal from 1810 I found (but did
>not buy) there. It is a Journal type book (originally sold with blank
>pages), hand written, lists recipied for paints, varnishes, stains,
>cleaners etc... The asking price was $150 U.S.. Out of my budget. I know
>I'll regret not picking it up so here's the next best thing...
>
>I'll get the adress to anyone interested in making this purchase on the
>condition that they transcribe the info found within and publish it to this
>list, I'm sure we can all benefit.
>
>If no one responds, I'll mull it over and if I decide I can no longer live
>happily without it I'll have to start saving my Halfpennies. Then, yes,
>I'll be happy to do the transcribing.
>
>There was another book, similar, but bound in vellum, with recipies for
>food and liquor mixes. the list on that was $165 U.S. and dated 1796, I
>believe
>
>Vic
>
>Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>


Vic

Pretty sneaky way to try and get someone else to do a transcription.

Of course I'm interested in the book, send the address.  I'll just not promise
when I'll get it done.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 19 Jun 1998 15:49:24 -0600

I would be interested, how do we do this?
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube
Date: 19 Jun 1998 16:51:36 -0500

At 11:08 AM 6/19/98 -0600, Henry Crawford wrote:
>John, and the list,
>
>What about a black powder revolver lube for those of us who also do periods
>outside the Rondy era?=A0 What is a period-correct (1840s-70s) lube that
>would work.=A0 You know those chambers get warm in the summer and I've had=
 a
>heck of a time keeping them sealed on hot days.=A0 When the revolver is in
>it's holster on my belt, the chambers are pointing down and if the grease
>is melted and flowing, out it comes.=A0 I've had a few chain-firings that
>way.=A0 I'd like to use some substance that would seal the chambers and not
>leak out.=A0 It should also lube the bore when fired.=A0 For now I use=
 oiled
>wonder wads, but they're expensive.=A0 Who's got another idea?=A0 Is=
 beeswax a
>good choice?=A0 Does it lube the bore?
>
>Thanks,
>HBC
>
>*****************************************

Henry,

Chainfires may have been part of the thrill and excitement of owning a
revolver.  Though the Colt Paterson was introduced before 1840, I've not had
much to do with BP revolvers. =20

I have not encountered an old recipe specifically to address this
application.=20
I have heard that a little corn meal on top of the powder can help prevent
chainfire. =20

Lead has been used as a lubricant though it builds up in a bore without=
 other
lubricant to ease passage of the ball.  White lead would work well (like
machinists used to use), really hard to find, really dangerous to handle.  I
can tell you how to make it; if you're interested; I, strongly, don't
recommend
it.  Other sulfate metals could also be added to tallow as a lube most all
provide some level of poison hazard in handling.

Beeswax would lube -- but in pure form might be difficult to pack tight in=
 the
cylinder.  If you melted a little rendered lard or bear oil in with the
beeswax
it would soften it enough to pack well, but it might not solve the melting
problem on a hot day. =20

If a little hard soap like lye were added it might raise the melting
temperature enough to keep the lube in place.  A little pure carnauba wax
(1850's) would also raise melting temperature.

It will take some experimenting to get just the right consistency for ease=
 of
application and resistance to melting in the holster.

I'd probably start with 1 part fine rendered lard to 3 parts beeswax to 1/8
part carnauba or 1/2 part hard soap.  Melt together in a double boiler. =
 Pour
into tins to cool.  Make small batches and experiment until you achieve the
performance level desired.  Carnauba will be more difficult to get to fuse
than
soap.

To make a double boiler for this type of experimentation I would suggest a
large and small tuna fish can with a 3/4 coil of heavy wire laid in the=
 bottom
of the larger can to elevate the small one allowing a full water jacket=
 around
the inner can containing the working materials.  It would best be done in a
fire safe area, the kitchen is only recommended if you are seeking domestic
discord.

Good Luck,

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist
Date: 19 Jun 1998 14:50:53 -0500

At 05:43 AM 6/19/98 -0500, you wrote:
>John:=A0 I thought "spermaceti" is the white waxey substance taken from the=
=20
>head cavity of the sperm whale.=A0 Was used for pharmacuticals, etc.=A0 I=
 have=20
>about a pound.=A0 The sperm whale oil I have is rendered, and is a clear=20
>liquid.=A0 Ron Harris and I purchased a gallon some time back.=A0 You are=
 very=20
>correct, it is an excellent lube, and does not seem to dry out.=A0=
 Regards,=A0=20
>Paul=A0=20
>
>
Paul,

Sperm oil is supposed to be the same as spermaceti.  Sperm whale oil is
rendered from blubber.  Sperm oil is the higher grade though the whale oil=
 is
mighty fine stuff.    I suspect much of what was sold over the past 50 years
was sperm whale oil labeled sperm oil.  I think most real sperm oil went to
Naval Stores and Swiss watchmakers who really knew the difference.  What=
 I've
had is a fairly dark liquid with a distinct aroma.

The material was widely used in pharmaceuticals and many industrial and
consumer products.  Even used for sealing wax. =20

Never having killed a whale I am relying on reading, what I've been sold,=
 and
what I've been told, I know the most desirable oil came from a gland area in
the head, the old references consider sperm oil and spermaceti the same.  So
either the gland contains both wax and oil or the oil was rendered from the
wax. =20

In one of those libraries I no longer have access to; I seem to remember
reading the oil was drawn off first and used as collected without other
processing.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
=20
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube
Date: 19 Jun 1998 14:59:26 -0700

Henry B. Crawford wrote:
>
> John, and the list,
>
> What about a black powder revolver lube for those of us who also do periods
> outside the Rondy era?  What is a period-correct (1840s-70s) lube that
> would work.

Water pump grease -- hard to find now days, but works great.  I would
suspect that the real old time long fiber axel grease would also work,
and I think the closest you can find of that stuff is cable grease that
they smear on cables and running riggin' etc.
                DN



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 19 Jun 1998 18:49:15 EDT

HBC writes:
> > I've had a few chain-firings that way.=A0

and John Kramer answers=20
>  Chainfires may have been part of the thrill and excitement of owning a
>  revolver.  Though the Colt Paterson was introduced before 1840, I've n=
ot
had
>  much to do with BP revolvers.  =20
>  I have heard that a little corn meal on top of the powder can help pre=
vent
>  chainfire.=20

Guys,
Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception about BP
revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the FRONT of=
 a BP
revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps, not havi=
ng
them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber, the=
 ball
is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through th=
e
nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any of the abov=
e
conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting th=
em
all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if the gun is
pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock position =
as it
has no place to exit.

The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It goes int=
o the
barrel and lubricates the ball.

Dave Kanger
New Listowner
Muzzleloader Mailing list



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 19 Jun 1998 15:47:01 -0700


John,

I apologize. Joe's message came through to me first. It would be less than
fair to offer it to the second. I did refer the original message to you
from your obvious wealth of previous info. If the information contained
within those pages is what you are after and not the collectability of the
work, then may I suggest we let Joe see his quest through. however. If you
are indeed interested in the book itsself, then Joe may wish to defer to
you the pleasure of the purchase and trascription in favour of procuring a
similar book  that I mentioned before which is more food oriented, one page
of which is a recipie for a drink with oranges rum and whiskey if my mind
serves me. that was the one which is bound in white vellum, same area of
the store.

We'll get this worked out gents, although that poor bookstore may not know
how to handle it's newfound business

Sneaky, me? perish the thought. I do however look forward to the
transcription of two books now....

Vic


>Vic
>
>Pretty sneaky way to try and get someone else to do a transcription.
>
>Of course I'm interested in the book, send the address.  I'll just not promise
>when I'll get it done.
>
>John...
>
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>John Kramer  <[e-mail]>


Vic Nathan Barkin, CGCM
Printing and Reproduction Services Manager
NAU Publication Services
Box 4101, Flagstaff, AZ 86011
520-523-6160
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 19 Jun 1998 15:35:35 -0700

Alright Joe you responded first so you got the nod. The address is

Smithfield Rare Books
429 High Street
Portsmouth, Va 23704
[phone]

The book can be described as follows since they don't have a cataloging system

On the right hand wall of the store when facing the front door
halfway across and halfway down, in the rare book section
Handwritten text from 1810, with marbled cover that has a slight tear in
the front.
about 7 x 9 inches, maybe 100 pages
Contains recipies for such things as Milk Paint, Varnish etc...
Has a price of $150.00 listed on the inside cover (light pencil)

finding two such books matching that description would surprize the hell
out of me.

I completely trust than no one else will impede on your progress in this
endeavor as we are all men of honor.

Let us all know of your progress.

Godspeed

Vic


>I would be interested, how do we do this?
>Joe
>
>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>Write for custom tanning prices
>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
>hair on robes
>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
>check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka


Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (PHIL PETERSEN)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum tanning
Date: 19 Jun 1998 22:34:03 GMT

Gary, If you will do as they say it works.  I have had my share of success
doing as they say.  I have also asked more than my share of questions.  They
are great people to talk with and know their business.

Phil

>Gary, If you decide to give it a try and have any questions, feel free to
>write and ask.
>         Longtrail
>
>
>
>                   O   Sundog Traders    O
>
>                      Joseph Dinsmore, M.T. & Victoria Longtrail D.
>                                     POB 182   Winnett, Montana    59087
>                            406-429-7828   or   [e-mail]
>
>
>                                        Brain Tanning
>                                   Less Instruction With More Results
>                                                            by
>                                   Joseph Dinsmore & Victoria Longtrail D.
>
>
>!.  Flesh the deer hide.  All you are concerned with is getting the meat
>and fat off.  Then place the hide in water and soak over night.  Make sure
>the hide   is completely soaked. ( the greener the hide the easier to
>dehair)
>
>2.  Dehairing :   Take the hide out of the water and place it over a beam
>and dehair.  The objective here is to get the brown layer (epidermis)  off.
>Keep in mind the fresher the hide the easier it is to dehair.   If you are
>using a "flint" or dried hide  with the hair still on, soak it overnight
>and flesh it again and you will notice the hide whitening out as you flesh.
>When done, throw it back in the water overnight. It soaks much faster.
>Dehair the next day.
>
>3.  This is what I call pre-braining.  Its better to  pre-brain the hide
>after you dehair while the hide is still pliable rather than letting it go
>to rawhide.  After you de-hair the hide put the hide in either an old brain
>solution or a new one.  If it goes to rawhide, soak overnight in cold water
>and then stretch by hand.  You will see the hide whitening out (not
>totally).   The objective here is to open the pores ( don't work all day it
>only takes a couple of minutes)  A metal strapping band ( the kind used to
>bundle wood with) works the best for me.   You can soak the hide  in the
>brain solution for as little as twenty minutes or over night.  I prefer
>over night.  Brain solution recipe is at the end of the article.
>
>4.  After pre-braining take the hide and hang it out to dry.  Its not
>necessary to wring out the hide  Don't fold the hide on itself, prop it
>open with sticks or whatever, or hang it straignt up and down.
>
>5.  Soak the dried hide in COLD water over night.  Lace the hide on a
>frame, this is the pre-stretching phase. ( I emphasize cold water because
>the hide is plyable enough to put on the frame and whiten out.)  Before I
>begin staking the hide, I sew all the holes.  I do it at this point because
>then there is no pucker, I use artificial sinew (personal preference).
>All you are trying to do is whiten the hide out by staking it.   The
>weather dictates how often the hide needs to be staked (remember, your not
>trying to soften it your just trying to whiten it).   In recent experiments
>it seems to stake out better when working side to side rather than up and
>down.  You will notice that when staking the hide, it sometimes starts  to
>soften up, if you like, keep working it, I don't.
>
>6.  Pre-smoking.    After the hide is whitened and dried out, smoke it.  If
>you think about it, if a white buckskin is smoked and gets wet, it softens
>back up with very little work.  Why can't you  do it a pre-stretched hide!
>I smoke the hide for three hours in a smoke house. (its nothing more than a
>box made of four sheets of 4X8 plywood  and a roof.)  I hang my hides
>horizontal about three foot from my smoke pot.  The thing to keep in mind
>is don't bake the hides. Keep a warm smoke (punky cedar is in my
>experience, the best wood to use but you can use any kind of punky wood.)
>
>7.  After smoking, put the hide back in the brain solution.  I leave the
>hide in it for thirty minutes to an hour.  Take it out and rub it over the
>band (I do this to make sure that there are no hard spots in the hide, if
>there are hard spots, then soak it a bit longer.)  Put it back in the brain
>solution, you can either leave it for three hours or over night.
>
>8. Take the hide out of the solution, it is your choice of either putting
>it through clothes wringer which is what I use, or wringing it out in any
>method you choose.   At this point I most often lace the hide onto the
>frame and work it soft and dry.  Usually the hips, rump and neck are the
>last to dry.   Don't stop working on the hide untill those spots are dry
>and softened or they will harden in the middle.  If at any time you have to
>stop working on the hide, you can freeze it wrapped in a plastic bag until
>you can get back to it. It requires  you to be lazy. Not real lazy. It IS
>possible to overwork the hide.
>
>Brain Solution Recipe:   One cow brain, two gallons of water.  Make it look
>like a weak campbells tomato soup but don't eat it.  Heat the solution
>until warm, NOT hot. The beauty of this pre-smoking method is that you can
>tan more hides with one cow brain.  You will notice if you use this same
>solution (add more water when needed) the hides will get easier and easier
>to sofen out and the solution smells more like smoke than brains.
>Sometimes I have to add another cow brain depending on how much additional
>water I have added.  I have found that rain water works best when making
>the brain solution.  Any kind of chemical in the water, such as chlorine
>seems to have an adverse effect.  I have done as many as twenty-two to
>twenty-four hides with two cow brains.
>
>Feel free to call or e-mail with any questions you may have.
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 20 Jun 1998 15:48:38 EDT

Hey John

I volunteer to transcibe ten (10) pagesof your books if you buy them.  Send me
some copies if possible.  Find 20 more volunteers and the jobs will be done.

thanks
js



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 20 Jun 1998 17:37:07 -0600

Vic,

I am willing to work out whatever it takes to at least receive a copy of
these two books, I would buy one if John wanted the other.

Let me know
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sommer J. Smouse" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 20 Jun 1998 22:05:37 -0600

I have to agree with Dave I have been shooting BP pistols for over 20
yrs and have never had a chain fire. I have alway insured that all
nipples are capped and I haven't used any lube on the front end sence I
started. Could figure why everyone believed the lube stopped a chain
fire when you use an oversized ball to start with.

Forrest




[e-mail] wrote:
>
> HBC writes:
> > > I've had a few chain-firings that way.
>
> and John Kramer answers
> >  Chainfires may have been part of the thrill and excitement of owning a
> >  revolver.  Though the Colt Paterson was introduced before 1840, I've not
> had
> >  much to do with BP revolvers.
> >  I have heard that a little corn meal on top of the powder can help prevent
> >  chainfire.
>
> Guys,
> Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception about BP
> revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the FRONT of a BP
> revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps, not having
> them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber, the ball
> is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through the
> nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any of the above
> conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting them
> all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if the gun is
> pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock position as it
> has no place to exit.
>
> The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It goes into the
> barrel and lubricates the ball.
>
> Dave Kanger
> New Listowner
> Muzzleloader Mailing list



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube
Date: 20 Jun 1998 14:15:53 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-19 12:16:58 EDT, you write:

<< What about a black powder revolver lube for those of us who also do periods
 outside the Rondy era?  What is a period-correct (1840s-70s) lube that
 would work.  You know those chambers get warm in the summer and I've had a
 heck of a time keeping them sealed on hot days.  >>

Think John's on the right track with the lard, bees wax, carnuba wax, & soap,
but I think beef tallow (2/3) & bees wax (1/3) might also work & be easier &
cheaper to obtain ingredients.  If it doesn't work in the revolver, you can
use if for greasing mocs & other leather items.

It's been my experience with a '58 Remington reproduction & my observation
with a Colt Walker, chainfires origionate not from the nipple end, but from
the loading end.  When using revolvers, our club requires you only cap the
chamber you're going to fire, leaving open nipples on charged chambers.  Not
saying it can't happen, but I've never seen one chain fire if the chamber
mouths are properly lubed.  Non-period greases that work dandy in hot weather
is simple chasis lube or wheel bearing grease.  Could save a finger until you
get the right mix of period ingredients.  Chain fires used to scare the crap
out of me -- especialy when the 6 O'clock chamber fired.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist
Date: 20 Jun 1998 14:15:50 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-19 18:14:26 EDT, you write:

<< Never having killed a whale I am relying on reading, what I've been sold,
and
 what I've been told, I know the most desirable oil came from a gland area in
 the head, the old references consider sperm oil and spermaceti the same.  So
 either the gland contains both wax and oil or the oil was rendered from the
 wax.
  >>

Wasn't sperm oil only from the Sperm Whale?  The oils from other Species like
Blues, Norwals, Pilots, & etc were clasified only as "whale oil"?

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 20 Jun 1998 09:29:20 -0700


--------------1B16FF9D5D6D4600A822692C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dave'
The idea that chain fires in a BP revolver are not related to lack of a seal at
the front of the chamber but rather from some mechanical problem with caps,
nipples, or what ever at the back of the cylinder is rather novel and somewhat
interesting. Because I can see some danger from folks taking your comments as the
absolute truth and that could be dangerous to the shooter and bystanders if
cylinders aren't sealed at the front I must ask you to back up your statement with
fact.

I won't claim to be an expert on this. I've only shot revolvers for some 30 years
and so there is much I probably don't know. I admit that I have always greased the
cylinders of my .36 Colt and .44 Remington because that is what I was told to do
way back when I first got started. I was under the impression that I was being
told to do this for two reasons. First reason was to lube the bore and make the
gun shoot  it's best and the second reason was to keep the cylinders from chain
firing. The only time I ever failed to grease the fronts of the cylinders was the
only time I ever experienced a chain fire  episode. I must say that this does not
constitute proof that your theory is wrong. I don't remember which pistol was the
offending  firearm but both pistols were new and I have always used the same caps
and have never had a repeat of this one chain fire episode. I have never again
failed to grease each loaded chamber.

With that, I must ask you in the spirit of sharing to give considerable detail to
showing why your statement is correct.

For what it's worth, I think a mix of lard and bee's wax in a proportion as to
stay solid in warm weather and be workable in any weather would be a very
authentic alternative to modern greases for greasing and lubing BP revolvers. I
don't have specific ratios to offer but I have found that it does not take a great
amount of wax to stiffen up lard to the point that it will not melt in normal
ambient temperatures.

I wonder, has anyone ever come across references to greasing BP revolver cylinders
in the 1800's or was that so common a thing to do that it was not written down or
even less likely, not done at all?

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

[e-mail] wrote:

> HBC writes:
> > > I've had a few chain-firings that way.
>
> and John Kramer answers
> >  Chainfires may have been part of the thrill and excitement of owning a
> >  revolver.  Though the Colt Paterson was introduced before 1840, I've not
> had
> >  much to do with BP revolvers.
> >  I have heard that a little corn meal on top of the powder can help prevent
> >  chainfire.
>
> Guys,
> Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception about BP
> revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the FRONT of a BP
> revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps, not having
> them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber, the ball
> is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through the
> nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any of the above
> conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting them
> all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if the gun is
> pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock position as it
> has no place to exit.
>
> The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It goes into the
> barrel and lubricates the ball.
>
> Dave Kanger
> New Listowner
> Muzzleloader Mailing list



--------------1B16FF9D5D6D4600A822692C
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Dave'
<BR>The idea that chain fires in a BP revolver are not related to lack
of a seal at the front of the chamber but rather from some mechanical problem
with caps, nipples, or what ever at the back of the cylinder is rather
novel and somewhat interesting. Because I can see some danger from folks
taking your comments as the absolute truth and that could be dangerous
to the shooter and bystanders if cylinders aren't sealed at the front I
must ask you to back up your statement with fact.

<P>I won't claim to be an expert on this. I've only shot revolvers for
some 30 years and so there is much I probably don't know. I admit that
I have always greased the cylinders of my .36 Colt and .44 Remington because
that is what I was told to do way back when I first got started. I was
under the impression that I was being told to do this for two reasons.
First reason was to lube the bore and make the gun shoot  it's best
and the second reason was to keep the cylinders from chain firing. <B>The
only time I ever failed to grease the fronts of the cylinders was the only
time I ever experienced a chain fire  episode. </B>I must say that
this does not constitute proof that your theory is wrong. I don't remember
which pistol was the offending  firearm but both pistols were new
and I have always used the same caps and have never had a repeat of this
one chain fire episode. I have never again failed to grease each loaded
chamber.

<P><B>With that, I must ask you in the spirit of sharing to give considerable
detail to showing why your statement is correct.</B><B></B>

<P>For what it's worth, I think a mix of lard and bee's wax in a proportion
as to stay solid in warm weather and be workable in any weather would be
a very authentic alternative to modern greases for greasing and lubing
BP revolvers. I don't have specific ratios to offer but I have found that
it does not take a great amount of wax to stiffen up lard to the point
that it will not melt in normal ambient temperatures.

<P>I wonder, has anyone ever come across references to greasing BP revolver
cylinders in the 1800's or was that so common a thing to do that it was
not written down or even less likely, not done at all?

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti

<P>[e-mail] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>HBC writes:
<BR>> > I've had a few chain-firings that way.

<P>and John Kramer answers
<BR>>  Chainfires may have been part of the thrill and excitement
of owning a
<BR>>  revolver.  Though the Colt Paterson was introduced before
1840, I've not
<BR>had
<BR>>  much to do with BP revolvers.
<BR>>  I have heard that a little corn meal on top of the powder can
help prevent
<BR>>  chainfire.

<P>Guys,
<BR>Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception
about BP
<BR>revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the
FRONT of a BP
<BR>revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps,
not having
<BR>them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber,
the ball
<BR>is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through
the
<BR>nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any
of the above
<BR>conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting
them
<BR>all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if
the gun is
<BR>pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock
position as it
<BR>has no place to exit.

<P>The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It
goes into the
<BR>barrel and lubricates the ball.

<P>Dave Kanger
<BR>New Listowner
<BR>Muzzleloader Mailing list</BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

--------------1B16FF9D5D6D4600A822692C--



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 20 Jun 1998 06:53:52 -0700

Washtahey HBC, and the less than strictly purist Mountain Man camp,

I learned the "corn patch" trick from a whole bunch of sources, and it works like
a charm.  Load each chamber in the cylinder with the desired load (about 25 grains
for my .36 cal Colt Navy), and then fill the remaining space with regular corn
meal -- as much as will loosely fill the chambers.  Place a ball on top and with
the revolver's loading arm press it into place, it will nicely compress the load
below and end up seating with the outer end of the ball nicely below the end of
the cylinder.  A dab of whatever bore grease you like in the remaining space
around the perimeter of the ball in the chamber completes the job, and although
this leaves a little grease exposed outside the ball in the cylinder, you can
regulate the amount to get the barrel entry and travel lubricated to your
satisfaction, and if you are loading balls of the 'correct' caliber (so they leave
a little lead skirt when sent home in the cylinder, .375 for a .36 cal chamber),
the corn meal and the fitted ball leave such a gap between the fire at the fore
end of the cylinder and the charge to completely prevent chain fires.  I never had
one, and Good Lord willin' and the creek don't rise, never will -- they sound like
no fun at all.

Watch your top knot

Gary Bell,
Night Heron

[e-mail] wrote:

> HBC writes:
> > > I've had a few chain-firings that way.
>
> and John Kramer answers
> >  Chainfires may have been part of the thrill and excitement of owning a
> >  revolver.  Though the Colt Paterson was introduced before 1840, I've not
> had
> >  much to do with BP revolvers.
> >  I have heard that a little corn meal on top of the powder can help prevent
> >  chainfire.
>
> Guys,
> Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception about BP
> revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the FRONT of a BP
> revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps, not having
> them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber, the ball
> is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through the
> nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any of the above
> conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting them
> all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if the gun is
> pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock position as it
> has no place to exit.
>
> The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It goes into the
> barrel and lubricates the ball.
>
> Dave Kanger
> New Listowner
> Muzzleloader Mailing list



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 20 Jun 1998 08:23:35 -0600 (CST)


>Guys,
>Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception about BP
>revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the FRONT of a BP
>revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps, not having
>them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber, the ball
>is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through the
>nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any of the above
>conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting them
>all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if the gun is
>pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock position as it
>has no place to exit.
>
>The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It goes into the
>barrel and lubricates the ball.
>
>Dave Kanger
>New Listowner
>Muzzleloader Mailing list

I DO use the correct size caps, seated firmly, and I keep a supply of fresh
nipples to replace the worn ones, thank you.  I'm not a novice with PB
revolvers (16 years).  Be that as it may, I won't waste bandwidth arguing
the physics of chainfiring.  Did you have any solutions for a lube that
won't melt on hot days?  That was the core of my question.

TIA
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 20 Jun 1998 00:16:43 -0500

At 03:47 PM 6/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>John,
>
>I apologize. Joe's message came through to me first. It would be less than
>fair to offer it to the second. I did refer the original message to you
>from your obvious wealth of previous info. If the information contained
>within those pages is what you are after and not the collectability of the
>work, then may I suggest we let Joe see his quest through.=20

No problem, luck of the mail server gods.  The information is the important
part to me.  Some of my stuff is 6th generation photocopies, a fresh clean
transcription would shine.  Particularly if I don't have to decipher it.

If Joe would prefer the food receipts, I of course would pick up the other.=
=20
the food and booze hold no interest for me.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
=20
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 21 Jun 1998 12:40:55 -0500

Washtahay-
At 09:29 AM 6/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
>The idea that chain fires in a BP revolver are not related to lack of a
>seal at the front of the chamber but rather from some mechanical problem
>with caps, nipples, or what ever at the back of the cylinder is rather
>novel and somewhat interesting.  Because I can see some danger from folks
>taking your comments as the absolute truth and that could be dangerous to
>the shooter and bystanders if cylinders aren't sealed at the front I must
>ask you to back up your statement with fact.

    I can offer the following, albeit rather anecdotal, information.
    1.  The revolver I shot the most as a kid-an 1851 Colt Navy brought back
as a souvenir from the War of Northern Aggression.  The only time we had
chainfires was when the nipples struck on the recoil shield.  Once because
some smart aleck kid put in new nipples that were too long, and another
time because of wear on the cylinder and recoil shield.  Uncle Norman,
following both instances, measured the gap at the rear of the cylinder (he
had that problem before).  He made me shorten the nipples one time, and the
other time put a shim on the cylinder pin at the rear.  I finally glued
that shim on with epoxy.  That gun stayed loaded and always fired.
    2.  On multiple occasions, I have seen revolvers fired with inadequate
nipple/recoil shield gap.  Chainfires were the norm.  I have duplicated
this condition on demand a number of times-I used to have a Navy with a
spare cylinder from another maker that was too short in the part that the
cylinder pin travels through.  I would load one chamber and cap all the
nipples.  When the loaded chamber was fired, all of the nipples would fire.
 I would then load it the same way, but with the empty chambers full of
cornmeal held in with making tape to seal the chamber mouths.  When the
loaded chamber was fired, again, all caps would go off.
    3.  The chambers ARE sealed at the front.  The oversized lead ball should
do an adequate job of sealing the chamber from the front.  Try this-take a
Colt's Dragoon. Load it with 25 grains of powder, and the correct sized
ball seated down on the powder, no grease.  DO NOT CAP IT.  Stand it on the
nipples.  Using a syringe, fill the chambers with water.  48 hours later,
dump the water and fire the cylinder.  Velocities will be where they should
be.  The light load is just to leave more room for water.
    I would suggest that anyone curious about these experiments be very
careful in duplicating them.  A teenager can survive a lot of stupidity, we
adults aren't always so lucky.
    For a fair amount of time, I used a c&b revolver as a sidearm on the farms
and ranches I worked on as a kid.  During that 10 year period, I fired
somewhere around 20-30 pounds of powder a year (about 5000-7500 rounds)
from the revolvers.  For day to day usage, I did not lube the cylinder
face.  I didn't want the lube getting all over everything, and I did not
know of a period lube I could use that would not melt.  I never had a
chainfire in the field.  I did have two chainfires in that period-one when
I put the new nipples in Uncle Norman's Navy, and one at a match where I
was only allowed to cap one chamber at a time.  (This is my personal
nomination for "Dumbest Range Rule of a Lifetime".)
    I did experiment some with lubes for target use, finally settling on a
lithium grease-but that was toward the end of my big-time c&b revolver craze.
    Nowadays, I sometimes use a lube soaked wad under the ball to help control
fouling.
>you guessed it, more good stuff snipped ;-)<
>I wonder, has anyone
>ever come across references to greasing BP revolver cylinders in the 1800's
>or was that so common a thing to do that it was not written down or even
>less likely, not done at all?
    A quick check of the literature (OK, I checked over 80 books plus a good
sized collection of periodicals, I figured someone would be calling OldFox
on this so I have been working on it since yesterday) shows the following:
    I found no reference to the use of grease applied over the ball.  This
includes reprints of 3 printed broadsides advertising various cap and ball
revolvers.  There was a note that the cartridges (combustible paper, foil,
or membrane) had the bullet end dipped in beeswax.  From experience I can
say that w/o some form of lube, those conicals used in the c&b revolvers
will lead up a gun REAL fast.
    Nine references to contemporary usage in the late 19th and early 20th
century (1882 to 1935) make no mention of greasing the end of the cylinder
to control chainfires.  Two mentions of greased wads between powder and
ball to control fouling (one in the 1920's, the other in 1934), one makes a
note that if carried for a long time like this it was likely to result in
"anemic" power as the grease would migrate to the powder).  All of these
articles were either written by veterans (of the WNG or the various Indian
conflicts) or the writers were assisted by such people.  Someone there was
intimately familiar with the management of c&b revolvers in the time that
they were in common usage.
    In my time in my home town, I was called on occasionally to "see if
Grandpa's gun was loaded" by various elderly folks.  8 or 9 times, I found
c&b revolvers loaded with five or six rounds.  Obviously, no grease was
present, due to the volatility of the oils, but none of the guns showed the
"varnish" or other residue of greases.  None had a wad either.  Most of the
guns were loaded with combustible cartridges, or with conicals and loose
powder.  Not a lot of faith in round ball, or was it what was available?
(One time I was handed a Colt's Army that was returned following the death
of the bearor in 1863 in Pennsylvania.  Still loaded in 3 chambers.
Combustible cartridges.)
    I was introduced to cap and ball revolvers by my (great) Uncle Norman and
my (great great) Grandpa Anderson.  Uncle Norman learned from his father
and grandfather.  His grandfather fought in the WNG, and carried that '51
for several years there, then as a sidearm when he settled on the plains in
the late 1860s.  Judging by his effects he was a bit of a gun bug-if the
use of a lube over ball was common, I am sure he would have mentioned it to
Uncle Norman.  Grandpa Anderson, who died in 1978 at the age of 94 or 95,
had as his only gun a Colt Dragoon (the grips were carved "Christmas
1891").  Other than a stint in the army, he stayed with that gun for his
whole life.  He took me out shooting it several times, he never used grease
over the bullet.  When he was young, cap and ball revolvers were the norm
amongst any of the neighbors who had handguns.  As much as we talked about
shooting old guns, if grease were used by anyone he knew he would have
mentioned it.
    At one time, I used to check several friends out of an old folks home to
shoot or fish.  Those who were familar with c&b revolvers never mentioned
the use of grease over the ball.
    Keith, in "Sixguns by Keith" mentions chainfires due to loose caps and
wear in the gun.  (p210).   He also suggests the use of a greased felt wad
under the ball.  No mention of grease over the ball.
    Based on all of the above, it is my contention that use of a lube over the
ball is not a common period practice, and that if a revolver in good
condition is properly loaded with an oversized ball, failure to use grease
is not a cause of chainfires.

LongWalker c. du B.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist.........Sperm Oil
Date: 20 Jun 1998 20:17:57 -0700

Yes.  Sperm oil came specifically from the Sperm Whale.  It was obtained
from from a case or great cavity within the skull and literally dipped
out with dippers and barreled without further rendering.  The "blubber"
was boiled and barreled on board ship.  That was "whale oil", used for
lamps, etc.  Spermaceti is a white brittle substance within the oil that
seperates upon the death of the animal.. It was used in the making of
candles and various ointments

John Funk


Man is judged not so much by the friends he keeps but by the ones that
will call him friend.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 21 Jun 1998 09:45:59 EDT

same here ,let me know if you would like some help.
                             traphand



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Prairie du Chein
Date: 21 Jun 1998 08:19:52 -0500


We were at Prairie du Chein yesterday for the day and enjoyed it greatly,
there were enough traders with so much good stuff that any Hivernant there
will be working the next year to pay off all the goods!
 Most seem to have survived Thursdays storms etc.(Tornado possibly?) and
were ready for another good day. Saturday was hot(90') and we left before
the weather got bad again(5 hour drive). I heard on the radio  that it was
getting bad again and hope everyone got through it all safely.
 One item I picked up and am impressed with and would like to know others
opinions on is a book "HISTORICAL COLONIAL FRENCH DRESS" By Mary M.
Johnson,Judy Forbs, and Kathy Delaney. published by Smoke & Fire News 1997
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 21 Jun 1998 00:17:02 -0500

As I posted earlier I have only limited experience with BP revolvers.

My first BP gun was a brass frame .36 Navy copy I bought at a freight
outlet in
1968.  Cheaply made Italian if I remember right.  The best feature was, it was
cheaper to shoot than a .22.  All the smoke and fire was fun.  We'd come home
black from head to toe.  Didn't last long as the lock parts were too soft and
wore quickly.

No one in my area was conversant with BP at that time, or at least I didn't
know them.  No one sold molds in the area, caps and powder were hard to find.
Never heard of Dixie Gun Works.  I finally found 000 buck shot, powder and
caps
at a local gun shop and an attitude of: Why do you want to shoot that thing?
There was only one size of caps in town back then.  They would fall off if I
wasn't careful.  Don't remember exact size.  Used to spend hours trying to
keep
it clean and pretty.

Learning was by doing, I started by filling the cylinders with powder and
cramming a buckshot down over the top, no measure; at a buck a pound we poured
directly out of the can, spilled a lot.  Before I learned about grease I
experienced several exciting chainfires, my shooting buddy at the time heard
about grease from an old timer out at Lake City Arsenal.  Back then we used
Crisco.  Fouled something terrible.

After learning about grease I never experienced the chain fire problem with
any
revolver I fired after that.  I haven't fired anything but flint in years.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 21 Jun 1998 01:12:29 EDT

when i push a ball home it takes off a razor thin circle of lead, which means
in effect the ball itself seals the front of the chamber from the powder. been
shooting BP revolvers for a number of years, only chain fires i've seen came
from caps being loose or falling off from the concussion of a shot previously
fired.  PJ



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Charlie P. Webb)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 20 Jun 1998 22:25:13 -0600

Howdy Old Fox,
Seems we both took a lot of heat awhile back on this thread,
but you were then and still are absolutely dead nuts correct
on what you have  written about chain-fires.
    A good home recipe for a black powder cartridge
rifle or black powder revolver lube is olive oil poured into
pure melted Bee's wax, then  stir the mixture until it is
consistant,  let cool, and use.  Will do what lube in a BP
revolver is supposed to do, keep the fouling soft,  it does
not prevent chainfires! Use equal amounts for a fairly firm
batch, or a softer batch with more olive oil added.  For harder
or more firm batch, use less oil.  Its characteristics  and use
are nearly identical to SPG.  Again this "chairfire" thread
has been beaten to death, and much proof has been shown
that original period folks using BP revolvers seldom or
probably never  used a wad,  or cornmeal filler under the
bullet.  The use of any kind of filler is a poor practice that
raises cylinder pressures. During the time of invention and
greatest popularity of the revolving cylinder firearm,  (1836
thru the Civil War,) virtually no records exist that can
document that chain-fireing  was a common event.  If it
happens at any time its because something is wrong!  A
Cap falling off due to recoil,  an undersized bullet,or a
correct size ball in a cylinder with a chamber machined
a bit oversized, can and will contribute to these unsafe
discharges.   Many of the inexpensive (Cabella's etc.)
revolvers that sell for around a $100.00 have cylinder
chambers of varying sizes, check em out before you buy!
When buying a black powder revolver, you generally
get what you pay for.  I have never owned or worked on
an original Colt or Remington that the cylinder chambers
were not sized exactly.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 20 Jun 1998 23:40:32 -0500

At 03:48 PM 6/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey John
>
>I volunteer to transcibe ten (10) pagesof your books if you buy them.=A0
Send me
>some copies if possible.=A0 Find 20 more volunteers and the jobs will be=
 done.
>
>thanks=20
>js
>

JS,

I'll keep it in mind depending on how things work out.

If I get it after transcription I'll post it on one of my web servers and,=
 if
Dean would like, provide him the link for inclusion on his page as well as
post
the address here.

Thanks,

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 20 Jun 1998 23:36:05 -0500

At 05:37 PM 6/20/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Vic,
>
>I am willing to work out whatever it takes to at least receive a copy of
>these two books, I would buy one if John wanted the other.
>
>Let me know
>Joe
>

Joe,

It is my understanding that since you got back to Vic first you had first
pick.

I am only interested in the finishes journal.  If you would be happy with=
 the
food and booze recipes I will call on Monday and order the other. =20

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
=20
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Purist
Date: 20 Jun 1998 23:29:59 -0500

At 02:15 PM 6/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-06-19 18:14:26 EDT, you write:
>
><< Never having killed a whale I am relying on reading, what I've been=
 sold,
>and
> what I've been told, I know the most desirable oil came from a gland area=
 in
> the head, the old references consider sperm oil and spermaceti the same.=
=A0 So
> either the gland contains both wax and oil or the oil was rendered from=
 the
> wax.=A0=20
>=A0 >>
>
>Wasn't sperm oil only from the Sperm Whale?=A0 The oils from other Species=
 like
>Blues, Norwals, Pilots, & etc were clasified only as "whale oil"?
>
>NM
>=20

YES

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cheap gun help
Date: 21 Jun 1998 15:40:20 -0500

I picked up a 50 cal this weekend (I didn't need it,but for $75 I figured I
couldnt go wrong) My problem is the guy who had it left a load in it for
about 2 years, I pulled it and cleaned it. it had Pyrodex in it. Anyone know
if there is a way to be sureany   damage isn't to bad to make a useable gun
out of this?
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ken Hall)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 21 Jun 1998 22:32:48 GMT

LongWalker:

Makes good sense to me - always wondered how the fire/spark got past
the projectile after a uniform sliver of it was removed during the
loading process and why several cylinders would go off as well.

Thanks for your historical perspective.

YMHS,
/Ken


On Sun, 21 Jun 1998 12:40:55 -0500, you wrote:

>Washtahay-=09

>    I can offer the following, albeit rather anecdotal, information.
>    1.  The revolver I shot the most as a kid-an 1851 Colt Navy brought =
back
>as a souvenir from the War of Northern Aggression.  The only time we had
>chainfires was when the nipples struck on the recoil shield.  Once =
because

>    At one time, I used to check several friends out of an old folks home =
to
>shoot or fish.  Those who were familar with c&b revolvers never =
mentioned
>the use of grease over the ball. =20
>    Keith, in "Sixguns by Keith" mentions chainfires due to loose caps and
>wear in the gun.  (p210).   He also suggests the use of a greased felt =
wad
>under the ball.  No mention of grease over the ball.
>    Based on all of the above, it is my contention that use of a lube over =
the
>ball is not a common period practice, and that if a revolver in good
>condition is properly loaded with an oversized ball, failure to use =
grease
>is not a cause of chainfires.
>
>LongWalker c. du B.
>=09




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 21 Jun 1998 19:26:45 -0700

Washtahey the camp,

Sorry about wading in a second time on this topic, one which is
already off the main line of this list, but if chain fires
resulted from flames from the back of the cylinder, wouldn't we
see some fire there, and wouldn't the cap be shot off the
nipple?  There is abundant fire at the front of the cylinder just
after the ball enters the barrel and the charge is squandering
some of it's energy leaking around the gap between the cylinder
face and the barrel entry.   With the hammer holding it down at
ignition, I have never noticed any caps missing from the nipples
when the hammer is lifted again.  Also, caps that will stay on
the nipple during the firing of an adjacent chamber are probably
pretty well seated.  If somebody feels that the cap skirt is the
route of the flame that ignites a chain fire, perhaps they could
help us by showing a cap from a chain fired chamber.  An unfired
cap would be unlikely from a rear ignition, but may well be
possible with a front ignited chain fire.  I readilly admit that
after a chain fire the shooter is probably thinking more about
insurance and fresh underwear than caps, but we could hope.....

As I said before, I have never had (and never by God want to
have!) a chain fire, and I have corn patched from the beginning.
I also use a ball that seals so well into the chamber that it
leaves a tiny lead ring when loadedm -- hard to imagine anything
getting past that.

Let's all pray for the day that we return to pre-1840 topics,
(even though these are lots of fun, and they involve converting
BP into smoke and noise)

Gary






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: shooter bags
Date: 22 Jun 1998 10:07:19 EDT

I am looking for pictures of authentic shooters bags so that I can reproduce
them.  Does anyone have any recommendations?

Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 22 Jun 1998 08:28:17 -0700

John and Joe,

May I suggest, that first, My interests also lie in the information. Since
Joe is first in line so to speak (and I guarantee you will not be
dissapointed with the penmanship or the content), that Joe be allowed first
right of refusal for the purchase. If Joe wishes to defer that honor to
John and still purchase the food recipie book,, so be it. The food book is
of lesser interest to me as well and if all feel the same way, let us
concentrate our efforts on the tradesmans recipies.

We seem to have ready volunteers to help in the transcription (of course
count me among them), a word of caution however as  scanning this text on a
flatbed scanner will ruin the value of the book although  a handheld wand
or digital camera may be possibly used. being that I don't know your
equipment limitations, you tell me.

You men are the best.

Vic


 >At 05:37 PM 6/20/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>Vic,
>>
>>I am willing to work out whatever it takes to at least receive a copy of
>>these two books, I would buy one if John wanted the other.
>>
>>Let me know
>>Joe
>>
>
>Joe,
>
>It is my understanding that since you got back to Vic first you had first
>pick.
>
>I am only interested in the finishes journal.  If you would be happy with the
>food and booze recipes I will call on Monday and order the other.
>
>John...
>
>John T. Kramer, maker of:
>
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>        >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <[e-mail]>


Vic Nathan Barkin, CGCM
Printing and Reproduction Services Manager
NAU Publication Services
Box 4101, Flagstaff, AZ 86011
520-523-6160
[e-mail]





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 22 Jun 1998 09:54:42 -0600

John,
Go ahead and purchase the paint book, I'll call on the food and booze book
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Revolver lube/chainfiring-the last word
Date: 22 Jun 1998 11:19:17 -0600 (CST)

Thank you, the list for the information on chainfirings/revolver lube.  I
realize that on the surface it may appear out of period, but it could be an
important topic for those who use Patersons with their pre-1840 impressions
(notwithstanding that historically, Patersons may never have been to a
rendezvous).  I am fortunate that I have the equipment, skills, and
knowledge to do impressions in many different 19th century periods and
scenarios, and therefore do not restrict myself to one era.  Indeed, by
virtue of my profession I am better served having a broad understanding and
knowledge of many 19th century historical themes.  Some 20-odd years ago, I
started in living history as a fur era buckskinner, and it remains one of
my favorite eras to do.

The jury is still out on chainfire causation, and both arguments are
compelling.  I think, since I am the one who started this string, and since
my original query was thoroughly answered, I am confident that the
question, for now, may rest, and I am therefore willing to yield to the
pre-1840 wishes of my listmates.  I am glad that my query was allowed to be
posted, however, for it shows the list owner's gracious willingness to tap
the broad knowledge base of list members, whose expertise often transcends
the pre-1840 rendezvous era.

Cheers,
HBC (aka Hears-The-Quiet)

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: HOW WILL WE GET AND KEEP  >PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES INTERESTED IN BUCKSKIA)
Date: 22 Jun 1998 13:56:41 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-16 14:15:55 EDT, you write:

<< HOW WILL WE GET AND KEEP
 >PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES INTERESTED IN BUCKSKINNING. >>

At one re-inactment and one rendezvous this year I have seen a great activity
that involved kids and adults.  One of our club members noted that kids
grow/change so fast that it is often hard for us older folks to remember who
they are.  So he set up a scavanger hunt with beads in the hands of adults all
over the camp.  To get a bead kids had to go up and introduce themselves and
politely ask if they might be gifted a bead from the adult in question.  By
the end of the day at least one adult in every camp had met everyone of the
kids.  Only had to have 20 some strings of beads outhere to get the kids to
visit over 100 camps.  And you know the prize was simply a completed string of
fine beads for each kid which is all they really wanted they all had fun and I
met/re-met a lot of fine polite young men an women.

You humble servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 22 Jun 1998 13:56:39 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-15 10:23:58 EDT, you write:

<<
 Joy is found in learning.  Learning can be a great deal of fun.  If we aren't
 learning we wither.

 To me, though important, the shooting aspects are of no greater value than
any
 other aspect of whatever we choose to call: buckskinning, rendezvous, living
 history, working history, experimental history, reenacting, mountainmaning or
 whatever.

 The musician who tells of the history of the tunes they play, teaches us.
The
 storyteller who recounts ancient legend stimulates the mind around the late
 nite fire.  This is the stuff that I always thought made the experience
 worthwhile for the whole family.  Learning to knap from a master or still
 another of the many small secrets of fire; each is of equal importance to
 shooting.

 That and the spirit of camaraderie and community, of honor and integrity, of
 common trust.  If we foster these things it will not be hard to keep the kids
 interest.

 John...
 John T. Kramer, maker of:á
  >>

Thank you John well thought out and well said.

Your humble servant

C.T.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 22 Jun 1998 14:34:23 -0500

At 09:54 AM 6/22/98 -0600, you wrote:
>John,
>Go ahead and purchase the paint book, I'll call on the food and booze book
>Joe

Joe,

Thanks, I'll get right on ordering.

John...
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 22 Jun 1998 14:44:25 -0500

At 03:35 PM 6/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Alright Joe you responded first so you got the nod. The address is
>
>Smithfield Rare Books
>429 High Street
>Portsmouth, Va 23704
>[phone]
>
>The book can be described as follows since they don't have a cataloging
system
>
>On the right hand wall of the store when facing the front door
>halfway across and halfway down, in the rare book section
>Handwritten text from 1810, with marbled cover that has a slight tear in
>the front.
>about 7 x 9 inches, maybe 100 pages
>Contains recipies for such things as Milk Paint, Varnish etc...
>Has a price of $150.00 listed on the inside cover (light pencil)
>
>finding two such books matching that description would surprize the hell
>out of me.
>
>I completely trust than no one else will impede on your progress in this
>endeavor as we are all men of honor.
>
>Let us all know of your progress.
>
>Godspeed
>
>Vic
>

Vic, Joe and eager volunteers,

The book is bought.   Is to ship on the morrow.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wefarmasmidgen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Prairie Vous and Colonial French Dress Book
Date: 22 Jun 1998 15:15:53 -0500

Hi Jeff and All:

Most traders seem to have survived the "big blow" Thursday night with only a
few rips, lost stakes, downed tents, and a lot of wet goods and grass in
beads - especially on Friday, but cheer was good.   It was not a tornado,
but straight line winds - from my understanding, "off the jet stream."  Most
importantly, no one was seriously hurt.  The Saturday night  promised repeat
of the bad weather did not materialize (thank goodness).  It did rain,
lightning and thunder a bit, but no real nasties.

I, too, was impressed with the "Historical Colonial French Dress book".  Not
only pictures, but scaled-down patterns of the costumes.  This is an updated
book from a previous publication, and I thought quite a bit superior.  There
is also a similar publication for 1890's dress.  I hope that the scaled-down
patterns will be a trend in costume books.

Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen
in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin
[e-mail]
Farm Trails  http://www.farmtrails.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 22 Jun 1998 17:27:36 EDT

Jim Colburn writes and Charlie Webb concurs:

>     A quick check of the literature (OK, I checked over 80 books plus a good
>  sized collection of periodicals, I figured someone would be calling OldFox
>  on this so I have been working on it since yesterday) shows the following:

LongWalker and Charlie,
Thanks for doing all the research for me.  You saved me tons of work.  Many
folks believe these old myths because someone told them once, that it should
be done that way, and they never stop to think about it.  They just believe
it.

I suppose that it is remotely possible for a chainfire to occur from the front
by using an undersized ball, but they would usually be forced forward in the
cylinder from recoil  after the first shot.  More often than not, this results
in a locked up action when the next cylinder rotates into position.

All the chainfires that I have seen resulted from improper sized or worn out
nipples, or as a result of someone pinching a #11 cap to hold it on, when they
should have been using a #10.  This can result in either a chainfire, or a
locked up action as well, when the cap gets caught between the cylinder and
the frame.

Thanks again for your research. (one more myth debunked)  When it comes to
Muzzleloading, these two guys know more than any ten of us combined.

OldFox



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael Branson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooter bags
Date: 22 Jun 1998 15:28:55 -0500

I would look for a copy of Madison Grant's book " The Kentucky Rifle Hunting
Pouch"

Regards M. Branson



>I am looking for pictures of authentic shooters bags so that I can
reproduce
>them.  Does anyone have any recommendations?
>
>Red Hawk
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1810 Recipie book
Date: 22 Jun 1998 18:12:24 -0700

I gotta say it Dean, this is where your efforts to maintain this list truly
shine!

My hats off ta ya John! I'm tickled pink!

and thanks to you too Joe. twas the gentlemanly thing to do.




>Vic, Joe and eager volunteers,
>
>The book is bought.   Is to ship on the morrow.
>
>John...
>
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>John Kramer  <[e-mail]>




Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: seeds
Date: 22 Jun 1998 22:39:19 EDT

Are there still some seeds left?  I would like to send for some seeds
that aren't sprouted yet.  How long will they be able to be stored before
going bad?

Ted

_____________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of the Cloth
Date: 22 Jun 1998 22:39:18 EDT

Ah...I do not know any other people who have been married in the
traditional manner but have heard through Native American friends that
there are still some people who are getting married that way and consider
it the true marriage lifeways.

Ted

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of the Cloth
Date: 22 Jun 1998 22:39:19 EDT

Was wondering if you have your own website?  I just had my picture added
to the American Catahoula Association website.  Just go straight to the
members list and look up my name and click on it.  You'll see a picture
of me that was taken on a windy day :)  Nothing fancy but plan to have my
own web page someday.

Ted

_____________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pan Chargers
Date: 23 Jun 1998 00:09:04 -0500

We seem to have some folks around here who have really studied up on guns.
I've got a question.

Are pan chargers really old?  Did most folks carry around a second horn with a
fine powder specifically to charge the pan?  If so what was the most common
form?  Does anyone really own any pre-1840 pan chargers?  How many old priming
horns are there?

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
john [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prairie Vous and Colonial French Dress Book
Date: 23 Jun 1998 04:31:10 -0500

On 1998-06-22 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
   >X-Priority: 3
   >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
   >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
   >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
   >Sender: [e-mail]


OOPS I forgot to look you up:(  I think "HELLO FROM THE 18th CENTURY"(I
think that was the title) had a simmilar format but I didn't look at it to
close.

   >Precedence: bulk
   >Status:
   >Hi Jeff and All:
   >Most traders seem to have survived the "big blow" Thursday night
   >with only a few rips, lost stakes, downed tents, and a lot of wet
   >goods and grass in beads - especially on Friday, but cheer was good.
   >It was not a tornado, but straight line winds - from my
   >understanding, "off the jet stream."  Most importantly, no one was
   >seriously hurt.  The Saturday night  promised repeat of the bad
   >weather did not materialize (thank goodness).  It did rain,
   >lightning and thunder a bit, but no real nasties.
   >I, too, was impressed with the "Historical Colonial French Dress
   >book".  Not only pictures, but scaled-down patterns of the costumes.
   >This is an updated book from a previous publication, and I thought
   >quite a bit superior.  There is also a similar publication for
   >1890's dress.  I hope that the scaled-down patterns will be a trend
   >in costume books.
   >Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen
   >in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin
   >[e-mail]
   >Farm Trails  http://www.farmtrails.com

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kirk L. Davis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Teepee Poles
Date: 23 Jun 1998 09:51:02 -0600

I need a little help for a friend.  He is looking for a set of teepee
poles.  Does anyone know of a trader in the northern Utah, southern
Idaho area that sells peeled lodge poles?  I have met a trader named
"Dr. Shakey" who is out of Willard, Utah, but I don't know how to contact him.
Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Kirk L. Davis
Salt Lake City, UT     [e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William Metcalfe" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teepee Poles
Date: 23 Jun 1998 10:21:39 -0600

I secured a set of real nice 27' poles from Blackfoot Canvas (lodge =
maker) in Blackfoot, Idaho.

__
William Metcalfe
[e-mail]


-----Original Message-----


>I need a little help for a friend.  He is looking for a set of teepee
>poles.  Does anyone know of a trader in the northern Utah, southern
>Idaho area that sells peeled lodge poles?  I have met a trader named
>"Dr. Shakey" who is out of Willard, Utah, but I don't know how to =
contact him.
>Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.
>
>Kirk L. Davis
>Salt Lake City, UT     [e-mail]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube(chainfire myths)
Date: 23 Jun 1998 14:50:03 -0400

good response and very true--still like my cornmeal or gritts over the
powder to get the same consistancy with my ball location in the chamber
of the cylinder---and it seems to burn cleaner than the other junk that i
have used.
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:49:15 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>HBC writes:
>> > I've had a few chain-firings that way.=A0
>
>and John Kramer answers=20
>>  Chainfires may have been part of the thrill and excitement of
>owning a
>>  revolver.  Though the Colt Paterson was introduced before 1840,
>I've n=
>ot
>had
>>  much to do with BP revolvers.  =20
>>  I have heard that a little corn meal on top of the powder can help
>pre=
>vent
>>  chainfire.=20
>
>Guys,
>Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.  This is a common misconception about
>BP
>revolvers.  Chainfires are not caused by an improper seal at the FRONT
>of=
> a BP
>revolver.  Rather they are caused by using the wrong sized caps, not
>havi=
>ng
>them firmly seated, or having worn nipples.  When you fire a chamber,
>the=
> ball
>is propelled forward and some of the explosion exits backwards through
>th=
>e
>nipple.  This flame will ignite the adjacent cylinders if any of the
>abov=
>e
>conditions exist, and they can jump from cylinder to cylinder igniting
>th=
>em
>all.  Generally, any chainfired balls will exit harmlessly if the gun
>is
>pointed safely.  The exception is the cylinder in the 6 o'clock
>position =
>as it
>has no place to exit.
>
>The lube you put in the front of each cylinder is only that.  It goes
>int=
>o the
>barrel and lubricates the ball.
>
>Dave Kanger
>New Listowner
>Muzzleloader Mailing list
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolver lube
Date: 23 Jun 1998 14:07:53 -0400

use corn meal or gritts over the powder charge before you load the ball
and you wont have to worry about the chain fireing.  can still use the
lube if you want byt not required as much.  i normally coat my revolver
pistol bullets with vegitable oil and keep in a sealed container and use
no lubricant over the bullet.  only the gritts or cornmeal over the
powder charge-I use enough of the meal or gritts to get the ball to the
front of the chamber of the cylinder and it seems quite accurate---shot
several possibles at 25 yds with this combination-still have to clean the
gun after several cylinders have been fired-normally 5 or 6. I use this
on a steel frame remington--has a .005 cylinder clearance.

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:08:47 -0600 (CST) [e-mail] (Henry B.
Crawford) writes:
>John, and the list,
>
>What about a black powder revolver lube for those of us who also do
>periods
>outside the Rondy era?  What is a period-correct (1840s-70s) lube that
>would work.  You know those chambers get warm in the summer and I've
>had a
>heck of a time keeping them sealed on hot days.  When the revolver is
>in
>it's holster on my belt, the chambers are pointing down and if the
>grease
>is melted and flowing, out it comes.  I've had a few chain-firings
>that
>way.  I'd like to use some substance that would seal the chambers and
>not
>leak out.  It should also lube the bore when fired.  For now I use
>oiled
>wonder wads, but they're expensive.  Who's got another idea?  Is
>beeswax a
>good choice?  Does it lube the bore?
>
>Thanks,
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pan Chargers
Date: 23 Jun 1998 16:09:22 -0400

john
i have a double horn which holds two different types of powder one on
either end- that dates back into the 1830's  also check out the cased
guns--- there were powder primers in the cases---several examples of this
exist--- i also have several small horns that was used for priming late
1700 and early 1800--tresco copied a example of the early priming head
and has it on the market --- saw the same head on a early flint dueler
case set several years ago--- i have made several of them and might have
one laying around the shop if you are interested---contact me off line or
give me a call---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]
e-mail [e-mail]


On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:09:04 -0500 John Kramer <[e-mail]>
writes:
>We seem to have some folks around here who have really studied up on
>guns.
>I've got a question.
>
>Are pan chargers really old?  Did most folks carry around a second
>horn with a
>fine powder specifically to charge the pan?  If so what was the most
>common
>form?  Does anyone really own any pre-1840 pan chargers?  How many old
>priming
>horns are there?
>
>John...
>
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>john [e-mail]
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooter bags
Date: 23 Jun 1998 15:36:02 -0400

sugggest you get a copy of "the kentuckey rifle hunting pouch  1750-1880"
by madisom grant--good book cost about $35.00  in mountain state
muzzleloading catalog  order number 302058---

this is probably one of the best books on shooting bags out on the market
today good photoes and you can get a lot of good ideas---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:07:19 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>I am looking for pictures of authentic shooters bags so that I can
>reproduce
>them.  Does anyone have any recommendations?
>
>Red Hawk
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teepee Poles
Date: 23 Jun 1998 17:25:52 EDT

Try giving Tony Zucca a call. Number is in the book, lives in the Granite
area.

Todd Glover



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teepee Poles
Date: 23 Jun 1998 20:38:00 EDT

Dick Bennett; Rembrandt, Idaho.  He was at Friendship, In. at NMLRA shoot last
week.  I don't know where he was headed.  He is a fairly big dealer.

Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 23 Jun 1998 22:24:13 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-11 18:48:22 EDT, you write:

<< [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred) >>
iron tounge hear do you know the name of the beutiful tune i heard the other
day played on a fiddle the man told me butt i forgot. it was used on pbc
special about the civil war. it was so pritty. its going to bug me tell i can
find the name. im a new blue grass nut and dont know my way around the groups.
ive started colecting tunes. also the one that custer played the day my
ansesters rubed him out.

                                                   iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 23 Jun 1998 22:25:24 -0500

Iron Tongue
The civil war tune you are probably refering to is "Ashokan Farewell" from
Waltz of the Wind by Fiddle Fever, produced by Jay Ungar and Fiddle Fever,
1984 Flying Fish Records, Inc.  It is on the original soundrack recording of
the PBS program, The Civil War by Ken Burns.  Custer's men marched to "Garry
Owen", an Irish tune, I think.
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original Message-----
re: NMLRA)


>In a message dated 98-06-11 18:48:22 EDT, you write:
>
><< [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred) >>
>iron tounge hear do you know the name of the beutiful tune i heard the
other
>day played on a fiddle the man told me butt i forgot. it was used on pbc
>special about the civil war. it was so pritty. its going to bug me tell i
can
>find the name. im a new blue grass nut and dont know my way around the
groups.
>ive started colecting tunes. also the one that custer played the day my
>ansesters rubed him out.
>
>                                                   iron tounge
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 23 Jun 1998 23:24:36 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-15 08:07:25 EDT, you write:

<< e-mail [e-mail] >>
did you get my you no mes  ive ben bitten by the blue grass bug. went to a
praty the other day the fiddle player told me the name and as allways i forgot
got a memeory as long as a cat house dream.
                                                         iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Terry Behm <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: BP revolver chainfires
Date: 23 Jun 1998 23:51:24 -0400



Excellent post Longwalker!    I've been watching the fight from afar and
guess I'd better jump in (even though it'sa bit off subject).

I've been shooting bp revolvers for over 30 yrs also, many of them. I agr=
ee
that the chainfire problem comes from the nipple end.  Most repro bp
revolvers are junk in IMHO, tolerances are lousy.  As for Navy caliber,
=2E375 is usually too small, I use .380 and original Colt moulds go as hi=
gh
as .390.  I have occasionally not used lube over loose powder and ball bu=
t
you need the lube after about two full cylinders.  I have solved the lube=

problem, have used conical combustible cartridges for the last few yrs,
don't miss loose powder and round ball at all.  MUCH less hassle.  =


AND, in an upcoming post, a period quote about greasing the front of a Na=
vy
six-shooter!!!

Terry  "Padre Rolf"  Behm



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Terry Behm <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: BP Revolvers,  a period quote
Date: 24 Jun 1998 00:03:27 -0400


This quote takes place at Georgia Gulch in the Colorado gold fields in
circa 1861, it involves miners argueing over North/South feelings at the
beginning of the Civil War.
        (well, it involves mountains and men anyway ;^)

"This quarrel was taken up and renewed by two other patriots who
represented each side of the great rebellion.  They agreed to settle it b=
y
a duel ... Their friends ... agreed for them to fight a duel provided tha=
t
they would shoot each other across a table in a miner's cabin and each ho=
ld
at the same time, with his left hand, a corner of the same handkerchief. =

Each second loaded carefully his principal's navy six and prepared the
table and handkerchief, and even entered into the minute detail of coveri=
ng
the charge in the cylinder of the revolver with tallow to make the pistol=

shoot slick and to keep it in order, as is the custom in this section to
keep the weapons always in proper order."

The result of the duel?    The seconds had loaded both revolvers with
powder only, they blazed away, both being felled by the concussion -
leaving big red welts on their chests.  All their friends had a good laug=
h.

from  A Confederate in the Colorado Gold Fields by Daniel Ellis Conner

Terry "Padre Rolf"  Behm




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 23 Jun 1998 22:38:05 -0700

Iron Tounge,

I think you are talking about Jay Unger's "Ashokan Farewell", used a lot in Ken
Burns' Civil War documentary.  The soundtrack for the series was available, and I
copied my ex's tape.

I don't follow your reference to the Custer music, could you tell more about where
you heard this?

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 98-06-11 18:48:22 EDT, you write:
>
> << [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred) >>
> iron tounge hear do you know the name of the beutiful tune i heard the other
> day played on a fiddle the man told me butt i forgot. it was used on pbc
> special about the civil war. it was so pritty. its going to bug me tell i can
> find the name. im a new blue grass nut and dont know my way around the groups.
> ive started colecting tunes. also the one that custer played the day my
> ansesters rubed him out.
>
>                                                    iron tounge






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dennis Mountjoy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooter bags
Date: 24 Jun 1998 01:11:13 -0700

Red Hawk writes:

>I am looking for pictures of authentic shooters bags so that I can
reproduce
>them.  Does anyone have any recommendations?
>
There are several options, depending on what you mean by "reproduce".  If
you mean "publish", then all sorts of copyright considerations arrise, and
you might be better off taking your own photos and getting them scanned.  If
your "reproduction is very local, and not for profit, consider some of the
following:
     *  A number of museums have on-line collections which contain shooter's
bags.  The provenance there is great.
     *  Try the AMM homepage museum with its hyperlinks to the bigger
collections.   (www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/museum.html ).
     *  On-line auctions such as E-Bay
(www.cayman.ebay.com/aw/listings/list/category353/index.html) , which lists
pre-1900 antiques for sale.  Shooter's bags come up not infrequently if you
scan the  lists.  Fortunately, there is an integrated search engine.
     *  If you have the ability to scan photographs, I really recommend
Madison Grant,  _The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch_,  published by himself in
1977.   It contains 134 plates, most of very good quality.  I believe it is
out of print, but is findable in old book stores (I found mine at Guidon
Books in Scottsdale, AZ).  I didn't find it in Amazon.com.

Good hunting.

Bloody Hand






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Blue Rider <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 23 Jun 1998 21:15:59 -1000

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-06-11 18:48:22 EDT, you write:
>
> << [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred) >>
> iron tounge hear do you know the name of the beutiful tune i heard the
> other
> day played on a fiddle the man told me butt i forgot. it was used on
> pbc
> special about the civil war. it was so pritty. its going to bug me
> tell i can
> find the name. im a new blue grass nut and dont know my way around the
> groups.
> ive started colecting tunes. also the one that custer played the day
> my
> ansesters rubed him out.
>
>                                                    iron tounge



    Hey, IT, how you doing?

    Don't know the fiddle tune, but Custer's song was "Gary Owen".  I think
the 7th Cav. still plays it.

    Aloha
    Blue Rider




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dennis Mountjoy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooter bags
Date: 24 Jun 1998 01:40:47 -0700

TO: Red Hawk:

      Hyperlink to EBay was incorrect.  Sorry.  Try deleting www.  Use
http://cayman.ebay.com/aw/listings/list/category353/index.html.   I didn't
test it
before I sent it. Sorry.

Bloody Hand.


>I am looking for pictures of authentic shooters bags so that I can
reproduce
>them.  Does anyone have any recommendations?
>
>Red Hawk
>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 24 Jun 1998 10:45:27 -0400

The tune of the 7th Cavalry was an old drinking song called Gary Owen.
Quite a catchy little tune...

Addison Miller

>In a message dated 98-06-11 18:48:22 EDT, you write:
>
><< [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred) >>
>iron tounge hear do you know the name of the beutiful tune i heard the other
>day played on a fiddle the man told me butt i forgot. it was used on pbc
>special about the civil war. it was so pritty. its going to bug me tell i can
>find the name. im a new blue grass nut and dont know my way around the groups.
>ive started colecting tunes. also the one that custer played the day my
>ansesters rubed him out.
>
>                                                   iron tounge
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Revolvers,  a period quote
Date: 24 Jun 1998 11:11:56 -0600 (CST)

>This quote takes place at Georgia Gulch in the Colorado gold fields in
>circa 1861, it involves miners argueing over North/South feelings at the
>beginning of the Civil War.
>        (well, it involves mountains and men anyway ;^)

snip . . .

Thanks.  As a professional historian, I always prefer documented evidence
and original primary source material.  I am glad that occasionally someone
provides that.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooter bags
Date: 24 Jun 1998 11:32:56 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I am looking for pictures of authentic shooters bags so that I can reproduce
> them.  Does anyone have any recommendations?
>
> Red Hawk

Dear Red Hawk:

I suggest the many University special collections in the nation.  Yale
has an extensive photo archives as does the University of Oklahoma.
Most large state or private institution have these types of special
collections.  Also, I would contact the Museum of the Fur Trade in
Chadron, Nebraska and the Museum of the Mountain Man in Pinedale, Wyo.,
and see if they have photos of their display material.

If you have any questions contact me,

Matt Despain



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Trippin' Again
Date: 24 Jun 1998 13:53:05 -0500

Hello the list(s)

I will be in Seattle/Tacoma next Monday and Tuesday and Anchorage
the 13-16 July with a follow-on to Fairbanks the 16-24 July. If
anyone is in these areas and would like to get together for supper
and/or an ale, let me know.


Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lead and Iron Pots
Date: 24 Jun 1998 11:53:29 -0700 (PDT)

Greetings All

Have a question on lead and cast iron kettles.

I purchased an old iron kettle from an auction some time ago with the
intent of using it with my persona.  The kettle had obviously been used to
cook with for some time, so I wasn't concerned with any problems.

Then, the night before I left for our local Rendezvous, I noticed some
hard to get out lumps under the grease.  Chipping on them revealed a
silvery metal underneath, and heating the pot on a burner confirmed my
suspicions when the lumps turned into molten lead... at some
point someone had used this pot to melt lead in.

Question.  Can this pot be salvaged (i.e. all lead traces removed) for a
cooking utensil by subjecting it to high (cherry red) heat?

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lead and Iron Pots
Date: 24 Jun 1998 14:53:51 -0600 (CST)

snip . . .
>Question.  Can this pot be salvaged (i.e. all lead traces removed) for a
>cooking utensil by subjecting it to high (cherry red) heat?
>
>Regards
>
>Lee Newbill

I have done that, but I admit you're running a long term risk.  I once
melted lead in an iron pot, then realized my folly.  I dumped out the
hardened lead mass, then I removed all visible traces of lead (there wasn't
much there to begin with) with a rotary steel brush attached to my drill, I
scrubbed and rinsed and dried the pot till I saw no more lead.  I am sure
that if there is any lead at all left in my pot (and I am sure there
isn't), it doesn't compare to the amount I breathe in during rush hour.

The best advice is to get yoursef a new pot for cooking and use the old one
for melting lead, tallow, or some other non edible substance.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: off line
Date: 24 Jun 1998 14:56:13 -0500

Howdy the list,
I will be off line for a while due to health problems.
YellowFeather



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off line
Date: 24 Jun 1998 15:16:14 -0600 (CST)

>Howdy the list,
>I will be off line for a while due to health problems.
>YellowFeather

Good luck, whatever it is.  Give us a holler when you're back.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off line
Date: 24 Jun 1998 17:00:04 EDT

Get well soon and come on back!!!~~~~~~~~~> :)

Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not  N
Date: 24 Jun 1998 16:41:54 -0500

the name of that tun is "garry owen" or "the irish washwoman" both names are
for the same tune.


On 1998-06-23 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
   >X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64
   >Sender: [e-mail]
   >Precedence: bulk
   >Status:
   >In a message dated 98-06-11 18:48:22 EDT, you write:
   ><< [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred) >>
   >iron tounge hear do you know the name of the beutiful tune i heard
   >the other day played on a fiddle the man told me butt i forgot. it
   >was used on pbc special about the civil war. it was so pritty. its
   >going to bug me tell i can find the name. im a new blue grass nut
   >and dont know my way around the groups. ive started colecting tunes.
   >also the one that custer played the day my ansesters rubed him out.
   >iron tounge

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 24 Jun 1998 16:21:01 -0700

Iron Tounge'

Are you thinking of "Gary Owen"? That is the marching song of the Seventh Cavalry
and we love it too.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 98-06-15 08:07:25 EDT, you write:
>
> << e-mail [e-mail] >>
> did you get my you no mes  ive ben bitten by the blue grass bug. went to a
> praty the other day the fiddle player told me the name and as allways i forgot
> got a memeory as long as a cat house dream.
>                                                          iron tounge






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wedding Pix are up and running!
Date: 24 Jun 1998 19:53:13 EDT

Well folks,

   It took me a while, but I have the Cyber Skinners / "#fur_traders Redezvous
pictures up and running.  Please pass the address on to whoever you think
should have it that i missed with this post.
   The address is as follows:

                        http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/sticks.html


                                             Longshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lead and Iron Pots
Date: 24 Jun 1998 17:51:29 -0700 (PDT)


Hello The List... Again!

Right after I sent the original message, I got a chance to talk to the
lead abatement team here at the University of Idaho.  Always up for
adventure, they were delighted to experiment.  We're going to heat the pot
to cherry, run the standing lead out, let it cool, then heat it up again
and test for lead vapor.  It's always amazing how one can overlook the
resources of his own back yard, eh?

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off line
Date: 24 Jun 1998 17:56:32 -0700

I'll be prayin' fer ya Yellow Feather!

Medicine Bear

Ken wrote:

> Howdy the list,
> I will be off line for a while due to health problems.
> YellowFeather






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 24 Jun 1998 22:52:05 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-24 11:33:21 EDT, you write:

<< The tune of the 7th Cavalry was an old drinking song called Gary Owen. >>

I think it's Garryowen the 7th Cavalry's marching song and the same as the
Montana town just south of the Little Bighorn Battlefield.

Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teepee Poles
Date: 25 Jun 1998 02:45:41 GMT

On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:51:02 -0600, you wrote:

>I need a little help for a friend.  He is looking for a set of teepee
>poles.  Does anyone know of a trader in the northern Utah, southern
>Idaho area that sells peeled lodge poles?  I have met a trader named
>"Dr. Shakey" who is out of Willard, Utah, but I don't know how to =
contact him.
>Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.
>
>Kirk L. Davis
>Salt Lake City, UT     [e-mail]

Check out Don Strintz.  Web site is   http://www2.strinz.com/tipi/ =20

We got a set right before the SW in March.  To be honest, we ended up
getting 2 used poles (complete with streamers!) and one with a rotten
base from them.  However, we've talked, they evidently had a 'new guy'
who filled our order, and have agreed to give us the money back or
bring replacement poles next year.  We're holding out for the
replacements.  No hassle, seem like real nice folks who want to do
right by their customers.

Roy


Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, [e-mail]
=46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS".



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael Branson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 24 Jun 1998 21:33:59 -0500

Garry Owen is correct. The song was originally used as a marching song in
Europe by the British Military. It is irish. Custer used to go into battle
with his band playing it. When he hit the Cheyenne camp at Washita in the
winter of 1868 the band was playing that song.

MBranson
-----Original Message-----
re: NMLRA)


>In a message dated 98-06-24 11:33:21 EDT, you write:
>
><< The tune of the 7th Cavalry was an old drinking song called Gary Owen.
>>
>
>I think it's Garryowen the 7th Cavalry's marching song and the same as the
>Montana town just south of the Little Bighorn Battlefield.
>
>Ghosting Wolf
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lead and Iron Pots
Date: 24 Jun 1998 21:18:24 -0700

If you look up the point at which lead will boil and heat your pot to that temp
for at least an hour, you would theoretically drive off the lead, but you may
not remove the lead oxides.  You also do not know how often lead was melted in
the pot, and hence how contaminated it is.   Get a new one, just to be safe.
CPS

Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> snip . . .
> >Question.  Can this pot be salvaged (i.e. all lead traces removed) for a
> >cooking utensil by subjecting it to high (cherry red) heat?
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >Lee Newbill
>
> I have done that, but I admit you're running a long term risk.  I once
> melted lead in an iron pot, then realized my folly.  I dumped out the
> hardened lead mass, then I removed all visible traces of lead (there wasn't
> much there to begin with) with a rotary steel brush attached to my drill, I
> scrubbed and rinsed and dried the pot till I saw no more lead.  I am sure
> that if there is any lead at all left in my pot (and I am sure there
> isn't), it doesn't compare to the amount I breathe in during rush hour.
>
> The best advice is to get yoursef a new pot for cooking and use the old one
> for melting lead, tallow, or some other non edible substance.
>
> HBC
>
> *****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooter bags
Date: 25 Jun 1998 00:04:17 EDT

authentic as to what ?, Where ?, When ? , let me know I'll help you out

watch your topknot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Upcoming Show & Tell
Date: 25 Jun 1998 00:14:16 EDT

I hope that I am not breaching list protocol, I am not a member of the AMM.
Iwould like to inform any list readers a great little show & tell in Monroe NY
at Museum Village, June 26, 27 & 28.  It's a recreated 19th Century town, and
a great little site.  If you're in the area please come by and pass a good
time

Thank you for the use of the list
Watch your topknot
John



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 25 Jun 1998 00:36:05 EDT

ashoken farewell



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Name of tune for iron tongue
Date: 25 Jun 1998 00:36:50 EDT

teh name of the tune is "ashoken Farewell"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 25 Jun 1998 01:24:48 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-24 01:48:46 EDT, you write:

<<     [e-mail] (Gary Bell) >>
gary the day custer was rubbed out they played gary owen and other tunes in
the band custer had with him alwats on his marches so im told . his campaines
wre extravagant rituals with full marching band so im told. as he was a bit of
an egocintric basturd.      iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 25 Jun 1998 01:35:23 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-24 04:15:39 EDT, you write:

<< [e-mail] (Blue Rider) >>
thanks blue rider iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 25 Jun 1998 01:36:35 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-24 11:33:21 EDT, you write:

<<     [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller) >>
thanks addison    iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lead and Iron Pots
Date: 24 Jun 1998 21:58:16 -0700

Hears The Quiet,

I wonder if you might be looking at a lump of tin instead of lead?  Tin would be
quite safe, and was commonly used to mend pots.  Where do you think the terms
'tinker' for itinerant mender of pots, or 'tinker's dam' for the wad of clay used
to plug a hole in an iron pot so tin could be pooled inside it, mending the pot --
came from?  You could test chemically for lead, or if you can measure and control
the temperature precisely, you might bring the whole business to the melting point
of tin (449 degrees F) but below the melting point of lead (621 degrees F).  A
glance at the two temperatures kinda tells why tin would be a good choice for
mending or lining cookware.  I have fancy professional copper saute pans lined with
tin -- they work great.

Keep us posted on how this works out

Heron


Chris Sega wrote:

> If you look up the point at which lead will boil and heat your pot to that temp
> for at least an hour

Good idea in theory, but iron melts at 2787 degrees F, and lead boils at 3171
degrees F.  I fear the pot would melt long before any lead boiled.

> , you would theoretically drive off the lead,

Lead fumes are very toxic, if you heat this pot be certain you have an adequate
fume hood or equivalent.  Don't just count on being outside and the breeze taking
the fumes away from you.  My environmental bump is itching thinking about where
those fumes would end up.

> but you may
> not remove the lead oxides.

If the lump is lead, there are already oxides, and there is no indicated boiling
point for them, they melt around 550 degrees, depending on composition.  Further
heating might drive off some of the oxygen from the oxides.

I expect that wherever the lead or tin or whatever was in contact with the iron it
actually chemically migrated into the iron a little bit, making a layer of alloy
that would have to be ground out.

> You also do not know how often lead was melted in
> the pot, and hence how contaminated it is.  Get a new one, just to be safe.
> CPS

I think the last is the best advice, unless you can test for lead chemically and
find none, you are talking about a sustantial lead poisining risk.

>
>
> Henry B. Crawford wrote:
>
> > snip . . .
> > >Question.  Can this pot be salvaged (i.e. all lead traces removed) for a
> > >cooking utensil by subjecting it to high (cherry red) heat?
> > >
> > >Regards
> > >
> > >Lee Newbill
> >
> > I have done that, but I admit you're running a long term risk.  I once
> > melted lead in an iron pot, then realized my folly.  I dumped out the
> > hardened lead mass, then I removed all visible traces of lead (there wasn't
> > much there to begin with) with a rotary steel brush attached to my drill, I
> > scrubbed and rinsed and dried the pot till I saw no more lead.  I am sure
> > that if there is any lead at all left in my pot (and I am sure there
> > isn't), it doesn't compare to the amount I breathe in during rush hour.
> >
> > The best advice is to get yoursef a new pot for cooking and use the old one
> > for melting lead, tallow, or some other non edible substance.
> >
> > HBC
> >
> > *****************************************
> > Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> > [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> > 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> > FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> >                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> > ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lead and Iron Pots
Date: 25 Jun 1998 01:40:57 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-24 14:57:26 EDT, you write:

<<  [e-mail] >>
i wouldnt use it for any thing but for melting lead its not worthit   iron
tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 25 Jun 1998 01:45:34 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-24 19:25:14 EDT, you write:

<<     [e-mail] (Roger Lahti) >>
thanks capt did  custer take a marching band with him on his campaingns. or
was some one pullin my leg.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 25 Jun 1998 01:52:04 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-24 22:55:11 EDT, you write:

<< [e-mail] >>
ben all over that country an cant rember that town - absorkie -red lodge-
colestrip-miles city-dont recall gary owen though. iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Name of tune for iron tongue
Date: 25 Jun 1998 01:55:35 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-25 00:39:17 EDT, you write:

<< [e-mail] >>
thanks iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off line
Date: 25 Jun 1998 02:00:10 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-24 16:09:40 EDT, you write:

<<     [e-mail] (Ken) >>
if you get to the end of your rope tie a knot in it and hang on.  love iron
tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not re: NMLRA)
Date: 24 Jun 1998 22:41:48 -0700

Iron Tounge

Yeah, now that all the other folks on the list described it, I recall having heard
the Garry Owen story before.   Ya know, of all the things I've lost since I got
old, I miss my mind the most -- I think I do anyway!

Yes, Custer had a king sized ego.  He was pretty eccentric and quite ruthless.  He
did some pretty impressive stuff in the Civil War (War of Northern Aggression, for
my southern friends), but his enthusiastic pursuit of the plains tribes earns him
little respect today.

Heron

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 98-06-24 01:48:46 EDT, you write:
>
> <<      [e-mail] (Gary Bell) >>
> gary the day custer was rubbed out they played gary owen and other tunes in
> the band custer had with him alwats on his marches so im told . his campaines
> wre extravagant rituals with full marching band so im told. as he was a bit of
> an egocintric basturd.      iron tounge






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lead and Iron Pots
Date: 25 Jun 1998 04:15:25 -0500

NO NO NO throw that pan out or use it to melt your own lead!!!!






On 1998-06-24 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-Sender: [e-mail]
   >Greetings All
   >Have a question on lead and cast iron kettles.
   >I purchased an old iron kettle from an auction some time ago with
   >the intent of using it with my persona.  The kettle had obviously
   >been used to cook with for some time, so I wasn't concerned with
   >any problems.
   >Then, the night before I left for our local Rendezvous, I noticed
   >some hard to get out lumps under the grease.  Chipping on them
   >revealed a silvery metal underneath, and heating the pot on a
   >burner confirmed my suspicions when the lumps turned into molten
   >lead... at some point someone had used this pot to melt lead in.
   >Question.  Can this pot be salvaged (i.e. all lead traces removed)
   >for a cooking utensil by subjecting it to high (cherry red) heat?
   >Regards
   >Lee Newbill
   >Viola, Idaho
   >email at [e-mail]
   >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
   >http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not  N
Date: 25 Jun 1998 04:59:28 -0500

On 1998-06-25 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
   >X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64
   >Sender: [e-mail]
   >Precedence: bulk
   >Status:
   >In a message dated 98-06-24 22:55:11 EDT, you write:
   ><< [e-mail] >>
   >ben all over that country an cant rember that town - absorkie -red
   >lodge- colestrip-miles city-dont recall gary owen though. iron
   >tounge
then you go around the REZ all the time! I've thumbed through there many
times on my way to the VA hospital in Miles City!
 Thats something I miss way east of the MIssissippi, I could always get a
ride and ususualy a hot meal going thruogh the rez, something the whites
never think of!
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BP Guns & Getting Kids Started in Buckskinning (not  N
Date: 25 Jun 1998 04:59:23 -0500

On 1998-06-24 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
   > When he hit the Cheyenne

   >camp at Washita in the winter of 1868 the band was playing that

   Interesting,and I thought there were NO survivors! Are you 132 years old?
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Day of Infamy??
Date: 25 Jun 1998 07:26:30 -0500

Speaking of Mr. Custer and his ego.  Is it today or tomorrow that is the
anniversary date for his biggest mistake?  Know it is one of these days,
25 or 26 June.  Just thought I would remind all on this most solemn of
days.

Tim Austin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooter bags
Date: 25 Jun 1998 08:48:41 EDT

I am interested in photos or sketches of bags used  for shooting or other
accessories in pre 1850.  I am a craftsperson who does leather, bead and
quillwork and I am interested in making hirtorically accurate bags for re
enactments and 'vous personna.

Red Hawk



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "P. Amschler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Day of Infamy??
Date: 25 Jun 1998 07:20:51 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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--=_-=_-NLFKOFFMOBEPBAAA
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Length: 142
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

TODAY  HOO RAH
Custer Died For Your Sins!
---
[e-mail]




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account at http://www.mailcity.com
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Speaking of Mr. Custer and his ego.  Is it today or tomorrow that is the
anniversary date for his biggest mistake?  Know it is one of these days,
25 or 26 June.  Just thought I would remind all on this most solemn of
days.

Tim Austin

--=_-=_-NLFKOFFMOBEPBAAA--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "P. Amschler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Day of Infamy??
Date: 25 Jun 1998 07:20:51 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
You need a MIME compliant mail reader to completely decode it.

--=_-=_-NLFKOFFMOBEPBAAA
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Length: 142
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

TODAY  HOO RAH
Custer Died For Your Sins!
---
[e-mail]




Get your FREE, private e-mail
account at http://www.mailcity.com
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Speaking of Mr. Custer and his ego.  Is it today or tomorrow that is the
anniversary date for his biggest mistake?  Know it is one of these days,
25 or 26 June.  Just thought I would remind all on this most solemn of
days.

Tim Austin

--=_-=_-NLFKOFFMOBEPBAAA--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch Lube / BP Cleaner
Date: 25 Jun 1998 09:43:53 -0600 (CST)

>In a message dated 98-06-24 19:25:14 EDT, you write:
>
><<      [e-mail] (Roger Lahti) >>
>thanks capt did  custer take a marching band with him on his campaingns. or
>was some one pullin my leg.


Yes, he did, as it was common 19th century military practice to do so, in
the US and in Europe.  The regimental band was very much a part of the unit
in the field as it was in garrison.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: gary owen  town of
Date: 25 Jun 1998 07:03:38 -0700

>In a message dated 98-06-24 22:55:11 EDT, you write:
>
><< [e-mail] >>
>ben all over that country an cant rember that town - absorkie -red lodge-
>colestrip-miles city-dont recall gary owen though. iron tounge

Its on the Crow Res, about half way between the N. and S. borders of.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Day of Infamy??
Date: 25 Jun 1998 09:55:04 -0600 (CST)

>Speaking of Mr. Custer and his ego.  Is it today or tomorrow that is the
>anniversary date for his biggest mistake?  Know it is one of these days,
>25 or 26 June.  Just thought I would remind all on this most solemn of
>days.
>
>Tim Austin


June 25, 1876

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Gary Owen and Custers Last!
Date: 25 Jun 1998 08:26:47 -0700

Iron Tongue'

You know, I don't know the answer to that. I have never read or heard any
stories about a marching band with Custer at the Little Bighorn so my first
thought is that it didn't happen but it would be interesting to know for sure.

I've got a buddy, John 'Digger' Pollack that just loves that tune and will give
anything to hear someone whistle it or play it on a tin whistle. I can whistle
it faster than I can play it!

By the by , for all of you that contributed to my further elucidation and
edification  concerning the fine points of the care and feeding of cap and ball
revolvers, my profuse thanks. The information provided will cause me to
re-evaluate the way I load my pistolas and will send me shopping for some much
larger round balls to use. I concede that poor nipple/cap conditions can cause
a chain fire, and I also realize that greasing the front of each chamber isn't
needed to prevent chain fires  if the right size ball/bullet is used. I will
continue with the caps I am presently using and use a larger size ball that is
prelubed with something like bee's wax and see how that works for ease of use
and accuracy.

This will be my final say on the subject and I look forward to discussions of
an earlier era!

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 98-06-24 19:25:14 EDT, you write:
>
> <<      [e-mail] (Roger Lahti) >>
> thanks capt did  custer take a marching band with him on his campaingns. or
> was some one pullin my leg.






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off line
Date: 25 Jun 1998 11:41:12 -0500

Yellowfeather,

Hope it isn't anything too serious. Good luck.

Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Gary Owen and Custers Last!
Date: 25 Jun 1998 11:17:42 -0600 (CST)

>Iron Tongue'
>
>You know, I don't know the answer to that. I have never read or heard any
>stories about a marching band with Custer at the Little Bighorn so my first
>thought is that it didn't happen but it would be interesting to know for sure.
>

He had the band at the Washita but not at LBH.  The Campaign of 1876 was to
be a long ordeal through very rough terrain, which is why he left the
gatling guns and wagons behind.  They never would have made it.  His
supplies were carried by pack mules.  Perhaps the best tactical decision he
made.  It went downhill from there.

Say since Custer was born in 1839, does he qualify as a "pre-1840" topic?  :-)

Ok, no more on Custer.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Gary Owen and Custers Last!
Date: 25 Jun 1998 12:43:20 -0400

custers wife wrote 3 books that are quite interesting reading-- I have
all three and it gives a different picture of custor than we thank
of--its--from a womens prospective of that time period-good reading if
you can get copies of--not many reprints available---one has all the
bugle calls of the time period at the starting of each chapter---to
include the notes---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:17:42 -0600 (CST) [e-mail] (Henry B.
Crawford) writes:
>>Iron Tongue'
>>
>>You know, I don't know the answer to that. I have never read or heard
>any
>>stories about a marching band with Custer at the Little Bighorn so my
>first
>>thought is that it didn't happen but it would be interesting to know
>for sure.
>>
>
>He had the band at the Washita but not at LBH.  The Campaign of 1876
>was to
>be a long ordeal through very rough terrain, which is why he left the
>gatling guns and wagons behind.  They never would have made it.  His
>supplies were carried by pack mules.  Perhaps the best tactical
>decision he
>made.  It went downhill from there.
>
>Say since Custer was born in 1839, does he qualify as a "pre-1840"
>topic?  :-)
>
>Ok, no more on Custer.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Gary Owen and Custers Last!
Date: 25 Jun 1998 10:27:56 -0700

Hears The Quiet,

Have you read up on George's brother Tom, who died with him at LBH?  Two
Congressional Medals of Honor, from the Civil War, I believe.  I know, my 'off
topic' alarm is going off, but this seems to interest a bunch of us....

Good luck on the revolver issue!

Heron

Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> >Iron Tongue'
> >
> >You know, I don't know the answer to that. I have never read or heard any
> >stories about a marching band with Custer at the Little Bighorn so my first
> >thought is that it didn't happen but it would be interesting to know for sure.
> >
>
> He had the band at the Washita but not at LBH.  The Campaign of 1876 was to
> be a long ordeal through very rough terrain, which is why he left the
> gatling guns and wagons behind.  They never would have made it.  His
> supplies were carried by pack mules.  Perhaps the best tactical decision he
> made.  It went downhill from there.
>
> Say since Custer was born in 1839, does he qualify as a "pre-1840" topic?  :-)
>
> Ok, no more on Custer.
>
> Cheers,
> HBC
>
> *****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeanette Matthews <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Myers, John Myers
Date: 22 Jun 1998 21:05:22 -0800

Am interested in bibliography of this author other than published books,
that is to say articles, monographs etc.  Am curious as to whether he is
still alive and publishing.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lead and Iron Pots
Date: 25 Jun 1998 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT)

Let's not get to paranoid about the lead.  Granted this stuff in not
real good for you but a little common sense should prevail.  Otherwise
we probably should not eat any animals that have been shot with lead
bullets or drink out of cups that use lead solder, or handle lead
bullets with our bare hands, use water from older homes with lead
pipes, or breath the air in Los Angles, etc.  Clean the pot until all
visible traces have been removed don't worry about it.  Use it at
rendezvous a lot to cook food for all the "camp dogs" that seem to
show up around the fire every day around mealtime.  Let them know you
used to use that pot for melting lead and I wager your food bill for
rendezvous will drop like rock.

              Dennis




[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-06-24 14:57:26 EDT, you write:
>
> <<  [e-mail] >>
> i wouldnt use it for any thing but for melting lead its not worthit
 iron
> tounge
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: good to go!
Date: 25 Jun 1998 17:11:01 -0500

Howdy the list,
I want to thank everyone that sent your best wishes and prayers. I got a
clean bill of health on the kidney stones today after a little
"roto-rooter" work at the clinic. Passed 5 stones all together. OUCH! Sore
but back home for a few days rest and I should be good as new. Still have a
bunch of lab work to be done so they can put a stop to my kidneys making
stones, but that will all be out patient stuff. So I'm back and ornery as
ever!
YMDS,
yer mos disobediant servant,
YellowFeather



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good to go!
Date: 25 Jun 1998 15:29:40 -0700

Ken'

Knew you was full a' rocks! Thought they was in your head though! Glad it
wasn't real serious.

YMO( and Humble)S
Capt. Lahti

Ken wrote:

> Howdy the list,
> I want to thank everyone that sent your best wishes and prayers. I got a
> clean bill of health on the kidney stones today after a little
> "roto-rooter" work at the clinic. Passed 5 stones all together. OUCH! Sore
> but back home for a few days rest and I should be good as new. Still have a
> bunch of lab work to be done so they can put a stop to my kidneys making
> stones, but that will all be out patient stuff. So I'm back and ornery as
> ever!
> YMDS,
> yer mos disobediant servant,
> YellowFeather






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good to go!
Date: 25 Jun 1998 17:43:46 -0600 (CST)

 I'm back and ornery as
>ever!
>YMDS,
>yer mos disobediant servant,
>YellowFeather


I'm glad of that.  If you weren't your old self, then something would be
seriously wrong.

Welcome back.

HBC


*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael Branson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good to go!
Date: 25 Jun 1998 17:05:00 -0500

Thanks Henry you said all that needed to be said about George today. The
battle lasted about as long as it takes a normal man to eat his lunch
according to the Sitting Bull. I believe the fight started in the early
afternoon on June the 25th, 1876, Sunday. Usually this is a holiday for some
of my wife's people.

Michael B.


-----Original Message-----






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good to ??? Custer?
Date: 25 Jun 1998 18:19:27 -0500

Howdy Mike,
Just a quickie, bumper stickers I have seen. Custer got Siouxed, Custer had
it coming, and Custer wore Arrow shirts. I love holidays! Tell the wife
that's a great idea!
YMDS,
Ken YellowFeather
Kawawak Tipsa

----------
> From: Michael Branson <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good to go!
> Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 5:05 PM
>
> Thanks Henry you said all that needed to be said about George today. The
> battle lasted about as long as it takes a normal man to eat his lunch
> according to the Sitting Bull. I believe the fight started in the early
> afternoon on June the 25th, 1876, Sunday. Usually this is a holiday for
some
> of my wife's people.
>
> Michael B.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry B. Crawford <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 5:45 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good to go!
>
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Custer Comments
Date: 25 Jun 1998 19:30:23 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-06-24 01:48:46 EDT, you write:
>
> <<      [e-mail] (Gary Bell) >>
> gary the day custer was rubbed out they played gary owen and other tunes in
> the band custer had with him alwats on his marches so im told . his campaines
> wre extravagant rituals with full marching band so im told. as he was a bit of
> an egocintric basturd.      iron tounge

To All:

I know this is a buckskinners group and hope I'm not overstepping the
bounds of discussion or beating a dead horse here (the only known
survivor of Custer's detachment was "Comanche," a Morgan now stuffed and
on display in Kansas somewhere) but Custer did not have his band with
him on the Little Big Horn fight.  Yes, he did take it with him on his
winter campaign of 1868 that ended with the attack on Black Kettle's
Southern Cheyenne camp on the Washita River, the same Black Kettle that
Chivington of the Colorado Militia brutally attacked on Sand Creek in
1864.  Also, the entire command was not rubbed out on the Little Big
Horn.  Marcus Reno's and Fred Benteen's groups held a defensive high
ground up stream from last stand hill for a few days until the arrival
of the main command up the Big Horn.  Lastly, I am no fan of Custer, but
he has become the major scapegoat for a society seeking to ease its
concience.  He was merely and agent, be it an eccentric one, following
the orders and dictates of a society caught in the throws of Manifest
Destiny where natives stood as a barrior to the predenstined course of
the Anglo-American race in the American mind.


About the Town of Garryowen,  its a blink and you'll miss it type for
sure.  It is where the upper end of the Indian camp was, where Reno's
forces attacked and were driven back across the L. Big Horn to
Reno/Benteen hill.

Works of interest:

Richard Slotkin, The Fatal Environment (puts the last stand in
cultural         constructs of the day)
Stan Hoig, Battle of the Washita
Robert Utly, ed., Life in Custer's Cavalry (about 1868 Winter Campaigns)
Kenneth Hammer, ed.,  Custer in 76 (primary accounts from the survivors)
Elizabeth Custer, Boots and Saddles
______,  Following the Guidon
___ Grey,  Cenntenial Campaign
Jay Monahan, The life of George A. Custer

These are all of the top of my head. I know there are more.  Those
interested in other works about Custer contact me.


Matt Despain
Dept. of History
University of Oklahoma
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Garryowen, MT
Date: 25 Jun 1998 21:00:45 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-25 01:55:21 EDT, you write:

<< ben all over that country an cant rember that town - absorkie -red lodge-
 colestrip-miles city-dont recall gary owen though. iron tounge >>

Garryowen, MT is about 17 miles south of Hardin, MT on I-90 (exit 514) where
Shoulder Blade Creek runs into the Little Bighorn River. It is also within
site of the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument (3 miles south as the
crow flies). It is on the Crow Indian Reservation being about 4 miles south of
Crow Agency.
Ghosting Wolf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Klose" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
Date: 25 Jun 1998 14:11:04 -0700

unsubscribe





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Custer Comments
Date: 25 Jun 1998 22:38:22 -0400

YOU FORGOT ELISEBETH CUSTER'S BOOK TENTING ON THE PLAINS-- she wrote
three books-----
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:30:23 -0500 "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>[e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 98-06-24 01:48:46 EDT, you write:
>>
>> <<      [e-mail] (Gary Bell) >>
>> gary the day custer was rubbed out they played gary owen and other
>tunes in
>> the band custer had with him alwats on his marches so im told . his
>campaines
>> wre extravagant rituals with full marching band so im told. as he
>was a bit of
>> an egocintric basturd.      iron tounge
>
>To All:
>
>I know this is a buckskinners group and hope I'm not overstepping the
>bounds of discussion or beating a dead horse here (the only known
>survivor of Custer's detachment was "Comanche," a Morgan now stuffed
>and
>on display in Kansas somewhere) but Custer did not have his band with
>him on the Little Big Horn fight.  Yes, he did take it with him on his
>winter campaign of 1868 that ended with the attack on Black Kettle's
>Southern Cheyenne camp on the Washita River, the same Black Kettle
>that
>Chivington of the Colorado Militia brutally attacked on Sand Creek in
>1864.  Also, the entire command was not rubbed out on the Little Big
>Horn.  Marcus Reno's and Fred Benteen's groups held a defensive high
>ground up stream from last stand hill for a few days until the arrival
>of the main command up the Big Horn.  Lastly, I am no fan of Custer,
>but
>he has become the major scapegoat for a society seeking to ease its
>concience.  He was merely and agent, be it an eccentric one, following
>the orders and dictates of a society caught in the throws of Manifest
>Destiny where natives stood as a barrior to the predenstined course of
>the Anglo-American race in the American mind.
>
>
>About the Town of Garryowen,  its a blink and you'll miss it type for
>sure.  It is where the upper end of the Indian camp was, where Reno's
>forces attacked and were driven back across the L. Big Horn to
>Reno/Benteen hill.
>
>Works of interest:
>
>Richard Slotkin, The Fatal Environment (puts the last stand in
>cultural         constructs of the day)
>Stan Hoig, Battle of the Washita
>Robert Utly, ed., Life in Custer's Cavalry (about 1868 Winter
>Campaigns)
>Kenneth Hammer, ed.,  Custer in 76 (primary accounts from the
>survivors)
>Elizabeth Custer, Boots and Saddles
>______,  Following the Guidon
>___ Grey,  Cenntenial Campaign
>Jay Monahan, The life of George A. Custer
>
>These are all of the top of my head. I know there are more.  Those
>interested in other works about Custer contact me.
>
>
>Matt Despain
>Dept. of History
>University of Oklahoma
>[e-mail]
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good to go!
Date: 25 Jun 1998 21:52:48 -0400

Ken wrote:
>
> Howdy the list,
> I want to thank everyone that sent your best wishes and prayers. I got a
> clean bill of health on the kidney stones today after a little
> "roto-rooter" work at the clinic. Passed 5 stones all together. OUCH! Sore
> but back home for a few days rest and I should be good as new. Still have a
> bunch of lab work to be done so they can put a stop to my kidneys making
> stones, but that will all be out patient stuff. So I'm back and ornery as
> ever!

Glad yer coming along so well, Ken!

Regards,

Fred





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Day of Infamy??
Date: 26 Jun 1998 04:13:53 -0500

Solemn? its a day for celebration!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


On 1998-06-25 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >Speaking of Mr. Custer and his ego.  Is it today or tomorrow that
   >is the anniversary date for his biggest mistake?  Know it is one of
   >these days, 25 or 26 June.  Just thought I would remind all on this
   >most solemn of days.
   >Tim Austin

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Day of Infamy??
Date: 26 Jun 1998 04:13:53 -0500

Solemn? its a day for celebration!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


On 1998-06-25 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >Speaking of Mr. Custer and his ego.  Is it today or tomorrow that
   >is the anniversary date for his biggest mistake?  Know it is one of
   >these days, 25 or 26 June.  Just thought I would remind all on this
   >most solemn of days.
   >Tim Austin

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 26 Jun 1998 06:38:36 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BDA0CD.0C22F7C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The anniversary of Custer's downfall is over and the celebrations, etc =
should be finished by now.  Let's backtrack 40 or 50 years, OK?  There =
is probably a place for an Indian War Era discussion list and those =
interested should start one.  That, or this list should be expanded to =
include the entire 19'th century.  Did you know that a likely cause for =
the explosion that destroyed the Maine was a build up of coal dust in =
her bunkers? =20
Lanney Ratcliff

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BDA0CD.0C22F7C0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The anniversary of Custer's downfall =
is over and=20
the celebrations, etc should be finished by now.  Let's backtrack =
40 or 50=20
years, OK?  There is probably a place for an Indian War Era =
discussion list=20
and those interested should start one.  That, or this list should =
be=20
expanded to include the entire 19'th century.  Did you know that a =
likely=20
cause for the explosion that destroyed the Maine was a build up of coal =
dust in=20
her bunkers?  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Lanney =
Ratcliff</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BDA0CD.0C22F7C0--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Custer Comments (last word, I promise)
Date: 26 Jun 1998 09:33:18 -0600 (CST)


>I know this is a buckskinners group and hope I'm not overstepping the
>bounds of discussion or beating a dead horse here (the only known
>survivor of Custer's detachment was "Comanche," a Morgan now stuffed and
>on display in Kansas somewhere)
>Matt Despain


Comanche is at the US Cavalry Museum, Fort Riley, Kansas.

Also, to add another tidbit, Custer was not the commander of the 7th.  He
was the deputy commander, with the rank of Lt. Col.  The commander was Col.
John Sturgis, who's health usually was not good so he was on detatched duty
in Washington, DC most of the time.  Custer was nominal commander ot the
regiment in Sturgis' absence.  By far, the best treatment of the LBH
episode is John S. Gray's _Centennial Campaign: The Sioux War of 1876_ (Old
Army Press, 1976.

Ok, THIS is my last word on Custer.

Let's talk about Bent's Fort.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 26 Jun 1998 09:37:34 -0600 (CST)

>The anniversary of Custer's downfall is over and the celebrations, etc should
>>be finished by now...Did you know that a likely cause for the explosion that
>>destroyed the Maine was a build up of coal dust in her bunkers?
>Lanney Ratcliff
>

Hey, I didn't hear that theory.  Let's talk about that.

Just kidding  :-)

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Custer Comments
Date: 26 Jun 1998 08:56:45 -0600

Matt,
I agree completely, come on people, let it go.

A historical note: Custers defeat at the Little Big Horn was not the
greatest  Indian victory over U.S. regular troops. That dubious honor goes
to the seven hundred  men under the command of Major General Arthur
St.Clair who were killed September17th, 1791 by Miami and Shawnee Indians
led by Little Turtle and Blue Jacket wiping out two thirds of the standing
United States Army at that time!!!
 Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Visit Canada's fur trade historic sites
Date: 26 Jun 1998 08:31:43 -0600

The U.S. dollar is now worth about $1.40 in Canada. If anyone in the
northern states has been planning to head north "one day", this would be a
great time to go. Where? Well, Winnipeg has Lower Fort Garry, the
reconstructed site of the HBC headquarters from the 1830's to the 1890's
(IIRC) and the Manitoba Museum of Man & Nature, which houses the
reproduction of the Nonsuch (the HBC's very first trading ship, used in
1670). In Ontario, Thunder Bay has Old Fort William, the reproduction of the
NWC's headquarters from 1803-1821, staffed with interpreters. (And the
wonders of Toronto & Ottawa, such as the Royal Ontario Museum, the National
Gallery, &c. &c.) Alberta has Rocky Mountain House National Historic Site,
and Fort Edmonton Park (in the towns of the same name), the beautiful Rocky
Mountain Parks of Banff & Jasper, & many historic sites associated with
David Thompson, Alexander Mackenzie, and other great explorers & fur
traders. The Calgary Stampede runs from July 3-12. And the folks near
Vancouver, B.C. might want to visit Fort Langley and participate in Brigade
Days (Aug 1-3).

How far does your money go? In Alberta, gas is currently $0.48/litre, which
works out to $1.42 Cdn/U.S gallon, or roughly $1 US/gallon. Motel rooms run
$30-$60 per night, depending on where you are and what your standards are.
(Of course, you can pay lots more if you want to.) And there is lots of
camping. So if you haven't finalized your plans yet, come up to Canada--
'cause we sure can't afford to go down to the States!

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: WANTED ADD.....1876
Date: 26 Jun 1998 11:23:10 -0400

Thought all of you might like a last word on Custer....this came out of the old

Buckskin Report, of which I was a proud member....miss that magazine.

WANTED:
     Young man, age 25-40.  Must be fleet of foot and not unduly modest.  To
participate in totally authentic re-enactment.  Interested parties please
contact the Blackfoot Tribal
Council regarding the John Coulter Memorial Run.

Dear Sir:
    Your name has been sent to us a s a collector of U.S. Calvary memorabilia.
We cordially invite you to an exciting centennial celebration.   This event is
to take place in scenic south-eastern Montana and along the lovely river known
in past days as the Greasy Grass.  You are asked to appear at this place in
uniform and with mount if possible on June 25, 1976.  After the re-enactment,
which is to be very authentic, dancing and appropriate celebrations will be
held.  For further information you may contact the Cheyenne and Sioux Nations.

                                                    Sincerely
                                                  Mr. C. Horse,
                                                Activities Chairman

From Linda Holley....an old grey beard.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Custer Comments (last word, I promise)
Date: 26 Jun 1998 09:43:59 -0700

    Was there last week (prior to reenactment). Grass is green, flowers
everywhere. I asked the seemingly knowledgeable Indian park service employee
what she thought was the best book that tells the Indian version. Her
recommendation "Hokahey! A good Day to Die" by Richard Hardorff, published
by Arthur H. Clark.
Gail
========================================

  By far, the best treatment of the LBH
>episode is John S. Gray's _Centennial Campaign: The Sioux War of 1876_ (Old
>Army Press, 1976.
>
>Ok, THIS is my last word on Custer.
>
>Let's talk about Bent's Fort.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WANTED ADD.....1876
Date: 26 Jun 1998 12:37:32 -0600

Great Ad,  Linda
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Visit Canada's fur trade historic sites
Date: 26 Jun 1998 21:37:16 EDT

Been to Canada quite a few times!  Love B.C. and Ontario(some parts of it
anyway), and also visited Thunder Bay, Ontario.  Gas is expensive!  What
goes for $12 dollars worth is actually $28 dollars worth in Canada!  That
was nearly three to four years ago so it might be different now.

Ted

_____________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Custer Comments
Date: 26 Jun 1998 21:37:16 EDT

I've heard that an Chippewa named Bug (shortening of his actual name) who
led the last Indian battle against soldiers.  Don't know the actual story
and the dates either.  Anyone know about this?  Apparently this wasn't a
huge battle but was the last actual battle but then again I'm thinking
about the "Willie" boy story in the West.  Anyone know anything about
that one as well?

Ted

_____________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 25 Jun 1998 19:27:26 -0700

THANK YOU, LANNY.

Maybe some will get the hint............This is still a pre 1840 Fur
Trade list.

Man is judged not so much by the friends he keeps but by the ones that
will call him friend.

_____________________________________________________________________
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 25 Jun 1998 19:27:26 -0700

THANK YOU, LANNY.

Maybe some will get the hint............This is still a pre 1840 Fur
Trade list.

Man is judged not so much by the friends he keeps but by the ones that
will call him friend.

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael Branson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Custer Comments
Date: 26 Jun 1998 20:34:57 -0500

Mr. Despain you said that quite well, I know this is a line about Mtn Men
but I'm sure it won't hurt to spend a day or so on this topic. I totally
agree with your comments.

A History teacher and still a student
Michael Branson
-----Original Message-----


>[e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 98-06-24 01:48:46 EDT, you write:
>>
>> <<      [e-mail] (Gary Bell) >>
>> gary the day custer was rubbed out they played gary owen and other tunes
in
>> the band custer had with him alwats on his marches so im told . his
campaines
>> wre extravagant rituals with full marching band so im told. as he was a
bit of
>> an egocintric basturd.      iron tounge
>
>To All:
>
>I know this is a buckskinners group and hope I'm not overstepping the
>bounds of discussion or beating a dead horse here (the only known
>survivor of Custer's detachment was "Comanche," a Morgan now stuffed and
>on display in Kansas somewhere) but Custer did not have his band with
>him on the Little Big Horn fight.  Yes, he did take it with him on his
>winter campaign of 1868 that ended with the attack on Black Kettle's
>Southern Cheyenne camp on the Washita River, the same Black Kettle that
>Chivington of the Colorado Militia brutally attacked on Sand Creek in
>1864.  Also, the entire command was not rubbed out on the Little Big
>Horn.  Marcus Reno's and Fred Benteen's groups held a defensive high
>ground up stream from last stand hill for a few days until the arrival
>of the main command up the Big Horn.  Lastly, I am no fan of Custer, but
>he has become the major scapegoat for a society seeking to ease its
>concience.  He was merely and agent, be it an eccentric one, following
>the orders and dictates of a society caught in the throws of Manifest
>Destiny where natives stood as a barrior to the predenstined course of
>the Anglo-American race in the American mind.
>
>
>About the Town of Garryowen,  its a blink and you'll miss it type for
>sure.  It is where the upper end of the Indian camp was, where Reno's
>forces attacked and were driven back across the L. Big Horn to
>Reno/Benteen hill.
>
>Works of interest:
>
>Richard Slotkin, The Fatal Environment (puts the last stand in
>cultural constructs of the day)
>Stan Hoig, Battle of the Washita
>Robert Utly, ed., Life in Custer's Cavalry (about 1868 Winter Campaigns)
>Kenneth Hammer, ed.,  Custer in 76 (primary accounts from the survivors)
>Elizabeth Custer, Boots and Saddles
>______,  Following the Guidon
>___ Grey,  Cenntenial Campaign
>Jay Monahan, The life of George A. Custer
>
>These are all of the top of my head. I know there are more.  Those
>interested in other works about Custer contact me.
>
>
>Matt Despain
>Dept. of History
>University of Oklahoma
>[e-mail]
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Buckles and such
Date: 26 Jun 1998 23:01:02 -0500

Howdy the list,
I just received a buckle and belt that Iron Tongue made for me. First class
work! All handmade and the quality is some of the best I have seen
anywhere. Thought I would pass this along to the list in case anyone is
looking for this kind of gear. Stout enough to carry a knife, hawk, or
anything else you might want to hang on it!
YMDS,
YellowFeather



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Custer Comments
Date: 27 Jun 1998 01:06:07 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-25 20:34:23 EDT, you write:

<<     [e-mail] (S.M.Despain-1) >>
thanks for beating the dead horse to death it was im portant to me to find out
the iformation. im not sorry for bringing it up and thanks again for your well
reasearched  comment. iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 27 Jun 1998 01:27:52 EDT

im having trouble getting my flint and fire started. list some times i can get
it and others i cant. my char cloth is one of the secrets !!!???? i can get
flint sparks . ican get char cloth to ignite but thats as far as it goes i
usualy give up and take my oxy on my torch and squirt a little of oxy on it
and away it goes . i do this on aregular basisis to start my forge and keep in
practice but im doing some thing or all things rong.      iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 27 Jun 1998 01:27:52 EDT

im having trouble getting my flint and fire started. list some times i can get
it and others i cant. my char cloth is one of the secrets !!!???? i can get
flint sparks . ican get char cloth to ignite but thats as far as it goes i
usualy give up and take my oxy on my torch and squirt a little of oxy on it
and away it goes . i do this on aregular basisis to start my forge and keep in
practice but im doing some thing or all things rong.      iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 27 Jun 1998 04:59:49 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> im having trouble getting my flint and fire started. list some times i can get
> it and others i cant. my char cloth is one of the secrets !!!???? i can get
> flint sparks . ican get char cloth to ignite but thats as far as it goes i
> usualy give up and take my oxy on my torch and squirt a little of oxy on it
> and away it goes . i do this on aregular basisis to start my forge and keep in
> practice but im doing some thing or all things rong.      iron tounge


I'd say you were doing a fine job. Keep it up.
I've been deleting the custer but my fingers getting tired.

Snakeshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 27 Jun 1998 11:23:29 -0400

We have not forgotten that this is a pre 1840 Trade list, but sometime you
have to go a bit into the future to understand the past.

Linda Holley

john c funk,jr wrote:

> THANK YOU, LANNY.
>
> Maybe some will get the hint............This is still a pre 1840 Fur
> Trade list.
>
> Man is judged not so much by the friends he keeps but by the ones that
> will call him friend.
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tigrbo1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: MESSAGE TO SCOTT ALLEN
Date: 27 Jun 1998 13:16:20 -0700

My apologies to the list for posting this message, alas I was unable to
post Scott directly.  Terry

Hi Scott,

        Terry & Judith Smith here, we live in north seattle and would
love to
meet with you on your visit to the area. Will you be in Tacoma or
Seattle?, where are you staying? and when in the day will you be free?
Our Phone # is 206-362-0647. The answering machine will say "You have
reached Ravin' Raven, I'm out making art rigth now ect.,ect.,ect. please
leave a message at the beep", so don't be suprised by it. Hope to here
from you soon.

Best regards,

Terry




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 27 Jun 1998 18:40:42 EDT

just take it easy and dont get your trowsers in  a bind. iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Hugh Hendrix <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: New Address
Date: 27 Jun 1998 17:12:08 -0700


--------------1FB54D53DDE2346765DDB35C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

I'm in the process of changing my e-mail from [e-mail] to:
[e-mail]

Please update your address book.

Regards


--------------1FB54D53DDE2346765DDB35C
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Hi,

<P>I'm in the process of changing my e-mail from [e-mail] to:
<BR><B>[e-mail]</B>

<P>Please update your address book.

<P>Regards
<BR> </HTML>

--------------1FB54D53DDE2346765DDB35C--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Forrest Smouse <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 27 Jun 1998 21:32:44 -0600

Iron Tounge,
I haveseen this problem before(char not taking the spark), Its usually
the char. Its been stated here before, most if not all cloth sold today
has a fire retardent on it. Years ago I used rock sample bag for my char
and they always worked great. One day I got some new bags(same brand)
and after charing them I couldn't catch a single spark.  Found out they
had fire retardent on them too. If you can find them try lamp wicks,
they work great.

Forrest


[e-mail] wrote:
>
> im having trouble getting my flint and fire started. list some times i can get
> it and others i cant. my char cloth is one of the secrets !!!???? i can get
> flint sparks . ican get char cloth to ignite but thats as far as it goes i
> usualy give up and take my oxy on my torch and squirt a little of oxy on it
> and away it goes . i do this on aregular basisis to start my forge and keep in
> practice but im doing some thing or all things rong.      iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Making Beaver bate....
Date: 27 Jun 1998 21:09:55 -0700

Okay... this newbie needs help.........

    Can someone tell me or refer me to the way beaver bate would have been
made in the 1800s? Also how is it presented to the beaver?

    DeVoto's book on Lewis and Clark talks about the "castor" or "bark
stone" as the base material. To this you add nutmeg, cloves and
cinimon(sic). Then add spirits to make it the consistancy of mustard.
    I may have to study the anatomy of a male beaver.... do they have musk
glands or are these their balls? DeVoto says the male beaver has "six" of
these stones. Oh boy!
    Is this thick fluid then put on the end of a stick and placed over the
underwater trap?

Gail
The living history Mt Man




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 27 Jun 1998 23:38:45 -0500

At 01:27 AM 6/27/98 -0400, you wrote:
>im having trouble getting my flint and fire started. list some times i can
get
>it and others i cant. my char cloth is one of the secrets !!!???? i can get
>flint sparks . ican get char cloth to ignite but thats as far as it goes i
>usualy give up and take my oxy on my torch and squirt a little of oxy on it
>and away it goes . i do this on aregular basisis to start my forge and
keep in
>practice but im doing some thing or all things rong.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 iron=
 tounge
>=20

What are you using for tinder?

If you have spark in the char the next step is to coax it to life as fire.
You
need something pretty fine, pretty combustible. =20

Kindling is the next step.

John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 28 Jun 1998 10:19:03 -0400

get a roll of hemp macromay thread and shred it fine--place in the oven
at 350 deg and cook for about 20 min to expell all moisture out---make
your nest from this---it will ignite like a house of fire---can use ceder
inner bark for a nest also  it works great-- must be dry---if you cook it
in a oven or a tin bucket with a hole in it for a few min it will also
take the moisture out-- it will also ignite real well-- many other
natural materials work well but have found that the macromay thread which
is very similar to toe works the best --MAKE SURE IT'S DRY AND STORE IN A
SEALED TIN SO THAT IT DOESN'T DRAW MOISTURE---moisture will retard the
flame and you will see a big difference in it's ignition---there was a
paper that was posted to the list a while back on fire starting--very
good you need to look at it---ask dean to send you a copy---made a many a
10 second fire with the tow---good stuff--next is The inner cedar bark
must be dry---

ketch you later--YMHOSANT
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:38:45 -0500 John Kramer <[e-mail]>
writes:
>At 01:27 AM 6/27/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>im having trouble getting my flint and fire started. list some times
>i can
>get
>>it and others i cant. my char cloth is one of the secrets !!!???? i
>can get
>>flint sparks . ican get char cloth to ignite but thats as far as it
>goes i
>>usualy give up and take my oxy on my torch and squirt a little of oxy
>on it
>>and away it goes . i do this on aregular basisis to start my forge
>and
>keep in
>>practice but im doing some thing or all things rong.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
>iron=
> tounge
>>=20
>
>What are you using for tinder?
>
>If you have spark in the char the next step is to coax it to life as
>fire.
>You
>need something pretty fine, pretty combustible. =20
>
>Kindling is the next step.
>
>John...
>
>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
>
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <[e-mail]>=20
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fire Starting
Date: 28 Jun 1998 08:42:49 -0700

   Iron Tongue'

This is my two bits worth on fire starting. Not something I have done for
years but something I picked up on in the last three or four years.

I find that the rotten wood found inside a small birch log, ( it will fall
out if the log is shaken roughly) will char up into the finest char
obtainable.  I then use a 3" or 4" square piece of burlap bag ( gunny
sack/feed sack) that has seen better days as a nest in lieu of cedar bark or
cottonwood inner bark, to blow the heat from the glowing char into. I find
that if all ingredients are dry that this will bring fire very quickly and
the flame will be easily sustained in the burlap as in a match or torch and
will facilitate putting good flame to my tinder of small forest duff or
twigs. The thing here that I wish to stress is that the burlap bag material
is quit superior to most anything else available along the Columbia R. and
when supplies arrive wrapped in burlap, those individuals headed for the
interior will make whatever attempt is needed to aquire a modest supply of
the aforementioned burlap.



I perhaps misunderstood your original post on this but I thought you were
having trouble finding a functional tinder that didn't require the use of
extra oxygen to get it to flame?
You should not have this problem with the use of burlap bag material when
this material is available to you. Try it and see!

YMO&HS
Capt. Lahti





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 28 Jun 1998 12:06:30 EDT

thank hawk im printing it now i didnt  keep my tow dry used some paper from
the shop. it was out in the open and on the coast what was i thinking dry dry
dry dry . got to be dry. thanks .    iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fire Starting..
Date: 28 Jun 1998 09:13:00 +0000

There isn't much need to go any further than nature to get good fire
starting materials.  Find some old dead grass that has been dead long enough
to be a brown color, not just tan.  A hand full of this WILL ignite.  I
have found some along the sides of highways that crews have cut, take it home
and put it in a burlap bag and hang it in the garage untill it is really
dry.  I then carry some of it with me in a bag whenever I go out camping.
Get the weeds out and just use the grass and it will definately work.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY

Roger Lahti wrote:
>   Iron Tongue'
>
>This is my two bits worth on fire starting. Not something I have done
for
>years but something I picked up on in the last three or four years.
>
>I find that the rotten wood found inside a small birch log, ( it will
fall
>out if the log is shaken roughly) will char up into the finest char
>obtainable.  I then use a 3" or 4" square piece of burlap bag ( gunny
>sack/feed sack) that has seen better days as a nest in lieu of cedar
bark or
>cottonwood inner bark, to blow the heat from the glowing char into. I
find
>that if all ingredients are dry that this will bring fire very quickly
and
>the flame will be easily sustained in the burlap as in a match or torch
and
>will facilitate putting good flame to my tinder of small forest duff or
>twigs. The thing here that I wish to stress is that the burlap bag
material
>is quit superior to most anything else available along the Columbia R.
and
>when supplies arrive wrapped in burlap, those individuals headed for the
>interior will make whatever attempt is needed to aquire a modest supply
of
>the aforementioned burlap.
>
>
>
>I perhaps misunderstood your original post on this but I thought you
were
>having trouble finding a functional tinder that didn't require the use
of
>extra oxygen to get it to flame?
>You should not have this problem with the use of burlap bag material
when
>this material is available to you. Try it and see!
>
>YMO&HS
>Capt. Lahti
>
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kirsten Smith and Tania Dopler <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Visit Canada's fur trade historic sites
Date: 28 Jun 1998 16:01:09 -0400

Well done Angela,

Heritage Canada would be so proud of a tourst boost lke that!!

Kirsten Smith
Ottawa, Canada



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Makin' coffee
Date: 28 Jun 1998 15:49:54 -0600 (CST)

With all the MM skills I have I still can't make a decent pot of coffee.
You can tell I don't drink it regularly, otherwise I'd know how to make it.
But there are times when I want some.  Can you expert coffee makers out
there give me a good and SIMPLE recipe for good camp coffee?  I grind my
own beans in a box grinder, but I'm usually at a loss as to how much coffee
to how much water.  It's usually hit or miss, and I'd like to get more
consistent.  Also, lots of the recipes I've seen call for an egg.  What's
up with that?

TIA
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Makin' coffee
Date: 28 Jun 1998 19:31:33 -0500

Henry, my coffee is always hit or miss and I drink gallons of it! :)
as for the egg,in winter use snow instead, egg is meant to add air to the
recipe most of the time(at least thats what I was told years ago in a
survival course) and as long as ducks,geese,sage hens, etc. exist I believe
eggs(hell,even turtle) are acceptable in any camp. That leaves the date of
creation of the recipe in question to be verified. this isn't just my
opinion,in their Journals,Lewis or Clark mentioned gathering bird eggs for
meals,and I think Devoto quoted a mountain man about eggs in ACROSS THE WIDE
MISSOURI.Also in the journals of Alexander Henry of the NORTHWEST COMPANY
clerks traded for eggs from ducks,swans and geese.

On 1998-06-28 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-Sender: [e-mail]
   >With all the MM skills I have I still can't make a decent pot of
   >coffee. You can tell I don't drink it regularly, otherwise I'd know
   >how to make it. But there are times when I want some.  Can you
   >expert coffee makers out there give me a good and SIMPLE recipe for
   >good camp coffee?  I grind my own beans in a box grinder, but I'm
   >usually at a loss as to how much coffee to how much water.  It's
   >usually hit or miss, and I'd like to get more consistent.  Also,
   >lots of the recipes I've seen call for an egg.  What's up with that?
   >TIA
   >HBC
   >*****************************************
   >Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
   >[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
   >806/742-2442           Box 43191
   >FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
   >WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
   >******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Making Beaver bate....
Date: 28 Jun 1998 19:31:27 -0500

Castor is beaver musk,from the beavers musk glands! Whats with nutmeg,cloves
etc.? Castor is all I've ever needed.
On 1998-06-27 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
   >X-Priority: 3
   >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
   >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
   >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
   >Sender: [e-mail]
   >Precedence: bulk
   >Status:
   >Okay... this newbie needs help.........
   >Can someone tell me or refer me to the way beaver bate would have
   >been made in the 1800s? Also how is it presented to the beaver?
   >DeVoto's book on Lewis and Clark talks about the "castor" or "bark
   >stone" as the base material. To this you add nutmeg, cloves and
   >cinimon(sic). Then add spirits to make it the consistancy of
   >mustard. I may have to study the anatomy of a male beaver.... do
   >they have musk glands or are these their balls? DeVoto says the
   >male beaver has "six" of these stones. Oh boy!
   >Is this thick fluid then put on the end of a stick and placed over
   >the underwater trap?
   >Gail
   >The living history Mt Man

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Making Beaver bate....
Date: 28 Jun 1998 19:31:27 -0500

Castor is beaver musk,from the beavers musk glands! Whats with nutmeg,cloves
etc.? Castor is all I've ever needed.
On 1998-06-27 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
   >X-Priority: 3
   >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
   >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
   >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
   >Sender: [e-mail]
   >Precedence: bulk
   >Status:
   >Okay... this newbie needs help.........
   >Can someone tell me or refer me to the way beaver bate would have
   >been made in the 1800s? Also how is it presented to the beaver?
   >DeVoto's book on Lewis and Clark talks about the "castor" or "bark
   >stone" as the base material. To this you add nutmeg, cloves and
   >cinimon(sic). Then add spirits to make it the consistancy of
   >mustard. I may have to study the anatomy of a male beaver.... do
   >they have musk glands or are these their balls? DeVoto says the
   >male beaver has "six" of these stones. Oh boy!
   >Is this thick fluid then put on the end of a stick and placed over
   >the underwater trap?
   >Gail
   >The living history Mt Man

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Makin' coffee
Date: 28 Jun 1998 20:46:22 -0500

Henry,

Now I like real coffee with lots of flavor so puny folks may want to cut
back a
bit on the amount added. =20

Set pot with clear water on the fire and bring to a fierce rolling boil.=20
Remove from fire and immediately add coffee, I use 1/2 cup ground coffee to=
 1
quart of water.  Place back on fire and just allow enough roll to the water=
 to
wet all the grounds, then remove from fire and let steep a few minutes.

Just before you pour add; egg shells (some add a whole egg, broken), a shot=
 of
cold water, or a green twig to help settle the grounds.  Of course if you
don't
mind chewing your coffee a little (more) to get all the good out of it, skip
this last step.

Cheap strong coffee can be made by boiling less coffee for several minutes,=
 it
also makes it bitter and acidic.

Enjoy,

John...


At 03:49 PM 6/28/98 -0600, you wrote:
>With all the MM skills I have I still can't make a decent pot of coffee.
>You can tell I don't drink it regularly, otherwise I'd know how to make it.
>But there are times when I want some.=A0 Can you expert coffee makers out
>there give me a good and SIMPLE recipe for good camp coffee?=A0 I grind my
>own beans in a box grinder, but I'm usually at a loss as to how much coffee
>to how much water.=A0 It's usually hit or miss, and I'd like to get more
>consistent.=A0 Also, lots of the recipes I've seen call for an egg.=A0=
 What's
>up with that?
>
>TIA
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Curator of History
>[e-mail]=A0=A0=A0=A0 Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Box 43191
>FAX [phone]=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Lubbock, TX=A0 79409-3191
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 WEBSITE:
<http://www.ttu.edu/~museum>http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******=A0 Living History . . . Because it's there!=A0 *******
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Makin' coffee
Date: 28 Jun 1998 21:22:59 -0500

Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> Can you expert coffee makers out
> there give me a good and SIMPLE recipe for good camp coffee?

I'm no expert, but I think weak coffee tastes the worst.  So err on the
side of putting in too much coffee.  You can always dilute it a little.
Or try making a few pots at home using your camp pot to get the right
amount of coffee.  Also, some boil camp coffee, but when we make it at
home, just almost-boiling water is put on the grounds, so I wouldn't
boil it.

Iron Burner



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Making Beaver bate....
Date: 28 Jun 1998 22:59:29 -0400

yoy need to tell him how to set it up to useor make it  -- or do you want
me to do it --- i usaually bought ther stuff when i was trapping beaver
but was well informed of how to make it if i needed to---could buy
castoreum from any cent manufacture so didn't take the time to make it
myself---there was about 6 or seven mgf that you could choose from---I
always bought the cheep stuff and it worked i don't know why---- but it
did....
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:31:27 -0500 Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Castor is beaver musk,from the beavers musk glands! Whats with
>nutmeg,cloves
>etc.? Castor is all I've ever needed.
>On 1998-06-27 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
>   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>   >X-Priority: 3
>   >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>   >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
>   >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
>   >Sender: [e-mail]
>   >Precedence: bulk
>   >Status:
>   >Okay... this newbie needs help.........
>   >Can someone tell me or refer me to the way beaver bate would have
>   >been made in the 1800s? Also how is it presented to the beaver?
>   >DeVoto's book on Lewis and Clark talks about the "castor" or "bark
>   >stone" as the base material. To this you add nutmeg, cloves and
>   >cinimon(sic). Then add spirits to make it the consistancy of
>   >mustard. I may have to study the anatomy of a male beaver.... do
>   >they have musk glands or are these their balls? DeVoto says the
>   >male beaver has "six" of these stones. Oh boy!
>   >Is this thick fluid then put on the end of a stick and placed over
>   >the underwater trap?
>   >Gail
>   >The living history Mt Man
>
>Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Makin' coffee
Date: 29 Jun 1998 00:09:40 EDT

Don't know about the egg but for a standard pot, the easiest measure is to cup
your hand and fill your palm. ( if you know how much a tsp measures in your
hand and you know that 3 tsp makes one tbsp and it takes four heaoing tbsp to
make a good pot of coffee...) two rounded palms of grounds should make a good
pot. After it boils for about 10 min find a stick, strip the bark, and poke it
in to settle the grounds. If you are winter camping, a little snow or stream
water will do a better job. Enjoy.

Keep your eyes on the horizon.

KP



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fire Starting
Date: 29 Jun 1998 00:26:03 EDT

thanks capt for you input i dont have berch butt will try somother wood that
might work. how do you make good char.?? ive had littl eluck with puting it in
a tin and roasting it on tha stove????!!!! how am i doing ugh.  iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Makin' coffee
Date: 29 Jun 1998 00:43:01 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-28 16:53:07 EDT, you write:

<< [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford >>
fill your pot boil the water  when its roling boil take it off the fire and
add coffe. im a coffe drinker not a hot water drinker put a good charge in the
pot a good charge. my secrit is when you put the coffe in dont let it boil
over slowly adding  all then put it back on the fire gently so it does notboil
over let boil a min or too.the first cup is the best because you get all the
grounds from the spout mmmmmm/mm. take it off the fire and let it settle for
awhile. keeping it worm as you can drink it. made thousands of gallons of the
stuff and im not dead yet . if boils odont worry it will be just a tad weaker.
boiled it in a tin can i found along side the trail  driven cows to summer
pasture once ittasts mighty good from a spring  or a good running creek watch
out for geraida.  iron tounge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fire Starting
Date: 28 Jun 1998 22:05:44 -0700

Iron Tongue (that walks)'

If you don't have any rotten birch logs you might try some really rotten maple or
other Hard Wood that has lain on the ground and just about disintegrated. Let it
dry out or dry it with care in the oven or near the fire until it is dead dry.
Break up some small pieces into a can with a tight fitting lid. Punch a very small
hole in the lid and put the can in the fire or  over direct flame so  the can gets
red hot. This will drive off the volatile gases from the rotten wood or what ever
fine carbon based material you are using, like cotton or linen fabric, and turn it
into charcoal inside the can. You must get the can very hot and you must see all
the vapors come out of the tiny hole you made and burn off with a tiny flame.
After the can has cooled you may open it and inspect the newly made char. It will
be fairly fragile if made from punk wood but can be handled if one is careful.

When it is available I use naturally found materials to blow my glowing char into.
Some good choices in my area are handfuls of dry grass and the inner bark of
cotton woods and sage brush will work too. I collect cedar bark when in the
regions where it grows and linen tow will work when it is available. Some types of
ropes and small lines will serve for tinder if the material can be spared. All
these materials must be prepared to some degree so that they be very fine and soft
as to catch the heat from the char and bust into flame.

In an earlier post I mentioned using burlap bag fabric as tinder when it is
available. I use natural materials as they become available in the field but I try
to have a hidden stash of burlap squares with me for that time when other tinder's
are not to be had and a sure fire must be got. The burlap squares will also serve
as tow to wipe out an unruly barrel.

I hope this has been of further help to you.

YMO&HS
Capt. Lahti
Clerk for the Wilson Price Hunt Party (to Astoria) AMM


[e-mail] wrote:

> thanks capt for you input i dont have berch butt will try somother wood that
> might work. how do you make good char.?? ive had littl eluck with puting it in
> a tin and roasting it on tha stove????!!!! how am i doing ugh.  iron tounge






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hard tack recipie
Date: 29 Jun 1998 08:42:46 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-11 11:38:53 EDT, you write:

<<  Just a note, I have heard that Baking powder and Soda were not
commercially
 > available until around 1850.

 Good point, but I think they were known by different names.  Webster's
 Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary dates the earliest use of the terms
 "baking powder" to 1850 and "baking soda" to 1881, and "bicarbonate of
 soda" to 1887.  I was surprised that "baking powder" predated "baking
 soda" because baking powder contains baking soda.
 However the term "soda" which means sodium carbonate or sodium
 bicarbonate dates back to 1558. >>

The name used for Baking Soda (sodium Bicarbonate) prior to the 1800's was
Saleratus.  Saleratus was a refined form of potash and was a pearl ash
(potassium carbonate) and is common in early cookbooks.  Saleratus reacts with
acids in the milk used to make biscuits and make them rise.  Per my wife (open
hearth cooking instructor at the Genesee Country Museum) using sour milk will
make you biscuits lighter.  And remember mixed with water Saleratus paste is
good on insect bites and bee stings.

Baking Powder could and was made prior to its commercial introduction by
combining Saleratus and Cream of Tarter (Tartaric Acid).  Tartaric acid is the
crystals you sometimes find on the bottom of a wine cork.  BUT per my wifes
research and early cookbook collection the use of Saleratus and Cream of
Tarter together (Baking Powder) is RARE in 18th century cook books.

Sorry this took so long to be sent but it took a while for me to get Jane to
sit down and write the info out.   Every time she told me Saleratus my poor
spelling took over and I just knew I would screw up everyone unless I got her
to spell it out.

So get a tin, fill it with Baking soda and mark it with its pre-1800's name
Saleratus and have some good biscuits on the trail.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Custer Comments
Date: 25 Jun 1998 21:32:41 -0700

     I have never been much of a Custer fan on way or the other but last =
summer we
made a trip to the battlefield on our vacation.  Not knowing anyone in th=
e area and
wanting to make the most of things I sprung for a history guide to show u=
s around
and it was well worth the money.  We arrived on a Saturday evening in Har=
din and the
next morning, Dennis Fox, our tour guide, stopped by the hotel to pick us=
 up.  We
followed him over to his house which was a few blocks away and he got in =
our van and
took over the driving.  I found him through the internet.  He actually wo=
rks for Jim
Court who is the former superintendent of the Custer Battlefield and assi=
sts him
with in depth history type tours.  We headed back down the interstate pas=
t the Reno
museum and got off on a dirt road that cut cross country though some ranc=
hes.  The
Reno Museum is privately owned and in my opinion, better than the one at =
the Custer
Battlefield.  The plan was to start at the =93Crows Nest=94 which was a l=
ookout point
from which Custer=92s Indian Scouts spotted the =93hostiles=94 pony herds=
 about 15 miles
from the actual battle location.  We couldn=92t get all the way up to the=
 Crow=92s nest
because the storms from the previous night had turned the low lying secti=
ons of dirt
road into a mud hole.  We now turned around and followed the route Custer=
 took north
up Ash Creek (now called Reno Creek). Dennis showed us all the significan=
t points
along the route where Benteen split off to scout the hills to the west, w=
here the
pack train got mired down in a swamp, where Reno crossed over to the west=
 side of
the creek, where the lone teepee with a dead warrior was found, and then =
to the
point where Custer sent Reno off to attack the village and he skirted aro=
und the
east side of the village up on the bluffs.  We then walked out across the=
 field
where Reno deployed his skirmish line and looked at some of the markers t=
hat
indicate the position where some of Reno=92s men died.  We followed the p=
ath of his
retreat to the point where he forded the Little Bighorn.  Dennis then too=
k us across
the interstate and across some private land up on a bluff where some of t=
he Indians
viewed the battle from.  Next we did lunch at the Crow Trading Post just =
outside the
entrance to the Custer Battlefield.  Indian tacos all around with a big d=
rink.
After lunch we went into the actual Custer National Monument and drove al=
l the way
down to south end to pick up the battle where Reno=92s men dug in after c=
rossing the
creek.  They had picked out some pretty good high ground (about 100 feet =
high) and
where digging in when Benteen arrived with his troops and the pack train =
which had
finally been extricated from the swamp. They regrouped and headed out to =
see what
had become of Custer but came under heavy fire at Weir Point and retreate=
d back to
their original positions.  By this time Custer and his command had been w=
iped out.
We next drove up to Weir Point and down to Medicine Trail Coulee where Cu=
ster had
made an attempt to cross and found himself in the center of a much larger=
 village
than he anticipated.  From there we went up on Calhoun Hill and last stan=
d hill.
Actually being there and seeing how spread out everything was, it is easy=
 to
understand why there were so many questions about what happened.  It is o=
ver four
miles from Benteen=92s/Reno=92s position to where Custer fought.  The ter=
rain is hilly
and we had a hard enough time with modern binoculars and clear air when w=
e looked at
long distance from place to place.  Add all the dust that was kicked up b=
y the
animals and the smoke from the black powder and you have a real visual ch=
allenge.

    After the =93official=94 tour ended, Dennis could see we had a real i=
nterest in this
stuff so he invited us back to his home to show us some other artifacts a=
nd he
invited us to come out to their ranch that evening to meet his family.  T=
his ranch
was once part of a 3 million acre ranch that cover a big chunk of Montana=
.  It was
about an hour drive outside of Hardin down in a beautiful little valley. =
 We meet
his children, his wife, his brother Richard who is an archaeologist, and =
another
brother.  Richard conducted an archaeological investigation of the Custer
Battlefield back in the mid 1980=92s and published a critically acclaimed=
 book of the
findings and an interpretation of those findings that changed many people=
s thinking
about the sequence of events during the battle.  We had a great time out =
there and
experienced some genuine hospitality.  They brought out a 50 year old bea=
ded Indian
dress and moccasins which Julie, my oldest daughter  modeled for a few pi=
ctures.  I
think it was of Northern Cheyenne make.

    I picked up quite a few books on the subject and three that I would r=
ecommend
highly are "Custer's Chief of Scouts, The Reminiscences of Charles A. Var=
num".  Lt.
Varnum was with Reno's command and provides a very detailed account of wh=
at
happened.  The "Reno Court of Inquiry" has more interesting things in it =
that most
of the other books put together.  As most of you know, someone had to tak=
e the blame
for what happened to Custer and Reno was the main target.  He requested a=
 formal
inquiry into what happened and this book is a transcript of the official =
testimony
that was given between January 13, 1879 and February 11.  Almost everyone=
 who could
be called in testified.  No charges were ever filed against Reno.  Richar=
d Fox's
"Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle" is the result's of the
archaeological investigation of the Custer Battlefield.  Also very intere=
sting.

                  Dennis



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "nancy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Trying to locate...
Date: 28 Jun 1998 17:04:33 -0400

Hello I am trying to locate the e-mail address of Amazon Dry Goods.  I
understand they carry civil war era patterns and etc.  Can you help me?  My
address is [e-mail]
   Thank-you,
    Nancy



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: seanbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Makin' coffee
Date: 28 Jun 1998 22:23:45 -0400

I use a muslin bag to put my coffee in then into the pot.  Per cup, I use
one TABLESPOON of coffee... ie... 16 cup pot... 16 rounded tablespoons of
coffee... then I add one more heaping for good measure.  I like STRONG
coffee.... <G> Definitely gets you going on a cold morning... Then let the
coffee do a low boil for about 15-20 mins... Comes out real good, and real
strong...  Actually, I found that you could just place it near the fire, and
not have it boil.  Keep it about 180 degrees... and it does fine...

Addison Miller

-----Original Message-----
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>


>Henry, my coffee is always hit or miss and I drink gallons of it! :)
>as for the egg,in winter use snow instead, egg is meant to add air to the
>recipe most of the time(at least thats what I was told years ago in a
>survival course) and as long as ducks,geese,sage hens, etc. exist I believe
>eggs(hell,even turtle) are acceptable in any camp. That leaves the date of
>creation of the recipe in question to be verified. this isn't just my
>opinion,in their Journals,Lewis or Clark mentioned gathering bird eggs for
>meals,and I think Devoto quoted a mountain man about eggs in ACROSS THE
WIDE
>MISSOURI.Also in the journals of Alexander Henry of the NORTHWEST COMPANY
>clerks traded for eggs from ducks,swans and geese.
>
>On 1998-06-28 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
>   >X-Sender: [e-mail]
>   >With all the MM skills I have I still can't make a decent pot of
>   >coffee. You can tell I don't drink it regularly, otherwise I'd know
>   >how to make it. But there are times when I want some.  Can you
>   >expert coffee makers out there give me a good and SIMPLE recipe for
>   >good camp coffee?  I grind my own beans in a box grinder, but I'm
>   >usually at a loss as to how much coffee to how much water.  It's
>   >usually hit or miss, and I'd like to get more consistent.  Also,
>   >lots of the recipes I've seen call for an egg.  What's up with that?
>   >TIA
>   >HBC
>   >*****************************************
>   >Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>   >[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>   >806/742-2442           Box 43191
>   >FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>   >WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>   >******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Making Beaver bate....
Date: 29 Jun 1998 18:03:14 -0500

I've always chopped and ground dried musk glands up real fine and mix with a
few drops of mineral oil,just enough to get a paste like consistancy and put
a little on a stick placed so beaver step on the pan when he comes to see
who is intruding in his pond
On 1998-06-28 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-Mailer: Juno 1.38
   >X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 6-12,14-44
   >yoy need to tell him how to set it up to useor make it  -- or do
   >you want me to do it --- i usaually bought ther stuff when i was
   >trapping beaver but was well informed of how to make it if i needed
   >to---could buy castoreum from any cent manufacture so didn't take
   >the time to make it myself---there was about 6 or seven mgf that
   >you could choose from---I always bought the cheep stuff and it
   >worked i don't know why---- but it did....
   >"Hawk"
   >Michael Pierce
   >854 Glenfield Dr.
   >Palm Harbor, florida   34684
   >1-[phone]
   >On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:31:27 -0500 Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
   >writes:
   >>Castor is beaver musk,from the beavers musk glands! Whats with
   >>nutmeg,cloves
   >>etc.? Castor is all I've ever needed.
   >>On 1998-06-27 [e-mail] said to kestrel@ticon.
   >>net    >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
   >>   >X-Priority: 3
   >>   >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
   >>   >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
   >>   >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
   >>   >Sender: [e-mail]
   >>   >Precedence: bulk
   >>   >Status:
   >>   >Okay... this newbie needs help.........
   >>   >Can someone tell me or refer me to the way beaver bate would
   >>have    >been made in the 1800s? Also how is it presented to the
   >>beaver?    >DeVoto's book on Lewis and Clark talks about the
   >>"castor" or "bark    >stone" as the base material. To this you add
   >>nutmeg, cloves and    >cinimon(sic). Then add spirits to make it
   >>the consistancy of    >mustard. I may have to study the anatomy of
   >>a male beaver.... do    >they have musk glands or are these their
   >>balls? DeVoto says the    >male beaver has "six" of these stones.
   >>Oh boy!    >Is this thick fluid then put on the end of a stick and
   >>placed over    >the underwater trap?
   >>   >Gail
   >>   >The living history Mt Man
   >>Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
   >____________________________________________________________________
   >_ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
   >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
   >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Makin' coffee
Date: 29 Jun 1998 17:22:09 -0500

2332Henry B. Crawford wrote:
>
> With all the MM skills I have I still can't make a decent pot of coffee.
> You can tell I don't drink it regularly, otherwise I'd know how to make it.
> But there are times when I want some.  Can you expert coffee makers out
> there give me a good and SIMPLE recipe for good camp coffee?  I grind my
> own beans in a box grinder, but I'm usually at a loss as to how much coffee
> to how much water.  It's usually hit or miss, and I'd like to get more
> consistent.  Also, lots of the recipes I've seen call for an egg.  What's
> up with that?
>
> TIA
> HBC
>
> *****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
When I was a kid I remember my granddad carried a bag of crushed
egg shells when we went hunting. He used it in his coffee. he said
a handfull in a pot would take the bad taste out of the coffee.
Never used it myself but granpa swore by it.

Snakeshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bob----debie <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AN ANNOUNCEMENT
Date: 29 Jun 1998 18:15:44 -0600

We've been yakkin bout Ballistol and it's uses for a long time and quite
frankly, I've not gotten any negative feed back and that is, in part,
responsible for the following announcement.

I have JUST completed an agreement with Ballistol to be a regional
distributor for the Rocky Mountain area.  The order is in.

I am definately seeking dealers and you do NOT have to been in the Rocky
Mtn. area.

So.  If you have a desire to be a Ballistol dealer---now is probably the
perfect time to look into it.

If you want more info.  Contact me OFF LIST ONLY.  List posted replies
are a no-no.

Thanks for the help in getting here.
Bob G
Thunder Ridge



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Makin' coffee
Date: 30 Jun 1998 00:13:36 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-28 16:52:29 EDT, you write:

<< With all the MM skills I have I still can't make a decent pot of coffee. >>

Have read all the replies up to this point with some intrest, 'cuz I like
coffee too.  There have been some good suggestions.  I think John's prociedure
(there were other's too along this line) of not boiling it has merit.  I've
discovered boiling it makes it become bitter.  Some people like it boiled, but
for me, it has better flavor if it isn't.  The best pot I ever made was with a
perk pot ( I know -- for shame!) on the heating stove inside the tent -- the
"old lady" was along -- what can I say -- anyhow, that pot never perked, but
it was the best tasting coffee I'd ever had when camping.  I've since figured
out how to do it without the basket in the pot & get the same results.  As for
how much coffee for how much water, the 1 TBSP/cup seems to work pretty well.
I've even made 1 cup at a time with this ratio when on a scout & pots were
limited.  Just put the water in my cup, & added the coffee after boiled then
kept hot by the fire for a few minutes 'till the color & aroma was right.
Egg, egg shell, twigs, snow, cold water, & etc are added to speed the settling
of the grounds.  The grounds will settle by themselves as the coffee cools a
bit, but if you're in a hurry, the above "additives" all work to a certain
degree.  No one has mentioned adding a touch of salt -- basicaly an old trick
to get the water to boil faster.  Don't get carried away, 'cuz a pinch is all
you need for the whole pot.  Some folks can't have salt for health reasons,
but if you can use salt, I think it mellows the flavor a bit.

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 30 Jun 1998 08:34:33 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-27 01:30:05 EDT, you write:

<<  i can get flint sparks . ican get char cloth to ignite but thats as far as
it goes i
 usualy give up   iron tounge  >>

Once you get the char glowing put it on some good tinder i.e.; dry tow.  My
favorite tinder is the loose ends of hemp tent ropes it catches flame really
easily.  The trick is that the tinder has to be real dry if you want it to
catch from the char.  Of course it helps to have a lot of hot air so you can
really blow on that glowing char to get the tinder to burn.  Good or bad I
have a lot of hot air so I can just blow that glowing ember into a flame in no
time.  Try the rope end, unravel it and make a nest of rope ends or tinder and
blow.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Makin' coffee
Date: 30 Jun 1998 14:49:26 -0700



Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> With all the MM skills I have I still can't make a decent pot of coffee.

I too don't drink coffee regularly, but when I do I want it good.  To make a
good cup of coffee start at home.  Boil filtered, not tap water.  Always
measure how much water and how much coffee so you are consistent.  I buy
quality beans of the columbia supremo type and grind 1/4 cup of BEANS, not
grounds,  per 6 Oz. of water.  Dont grind the beans too finely or you will get
a lot of mud in the bottom of your cup. too coarse a grind will leave you with
weak coffee.  When your water boils take it off of the heat and add coffee.  If
you boil your coffee it will taste like crap.  Stir in the grounds and let it
steep off of the heat till it is as strong as you like it.  A splash of cold
water helps the grounds settle and you now have good coffee.  In cold weather
add enough heat to keep from cooling rapidly.  once you have it perfected at
home duplicate it when camping and all should go well.  Egg whites were added
to settle out the grounds, but that is just a good way to ruin your coffee if
you ask me.  So consistincy in measurement, Heat, and quality un chlorinated
water make good coffee.  By the way if you enjoy starbucks coffee (eeeych!)
Then you might want to boil your coffee a little




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: moccasins
Date: 30 Jun 1998 16:19:49 -0500

Settle a arguement for me. When did the so called hardsoled moccasins
become common? { Plains Indian style} It has  always been my understanding
that there were more reservation period. The documentation that I have
indicates that the sideseam, puckertoe, and centerseam mocs were much more
common even in the mountains.

Pendleton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasins
Date: 30 Jun 1998 17:32:30 -0500

yellow rose/pendleton wrote:
>
> Settle a arguement for me. When did the so called hardsoled moccasins
> become common? { Plains Indian style} It has  always been my understanding
> that there were more reservation period. The documentation that I have
> indicates that the sideseam, puckertoe, and centerseam mocs were much more
> common even in the mountains.
>
> Pendleton
Larry,
  Most of the research that I have done says that in the plains and
Rocky Mountain areas the sideseam and centerseam were common. Most of
the hard soul moc's prior to the rez. period were in Texas and the
rocky desert regions of the southwest. Hey, I figured you would
be in Idaho right now!!

Snakeshot



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: IN MEMORIAM
Date: 30 Jun 1998 20:57:14 EDT

IN MEMORIAM
ANTHONY R. MACLANE
"DANCES WITH WOOD"
JANUARY 25, 1934 - JUNE 30, 1998

THOUGHTS OF TONY

      To all my friends and family, some things I'd like to say.
 But first of all, I'll let you know, that I arrived okay.

      I'm sending this from heaven, where I dwell with God above.
 There's no more tears or sadness; Just eternal love.

The campfires glow so brightly; Tequila flows like water,
I'm still running into woodpiles, just like I know I oughta.

 Please do not be unhappy just because I'm out of sight.
 Remember that I am with you every morning, noon and night.

      That day I had to leave you when my rendezvous on earth was through.
 God picked me up and hugged me and He said, "I welcome you."

 "It's good to have you back again, you were missed while you were gone.
 As for your friends and family, They'll be here later on."

" I need you here badly, you're part of my plan.
 There's so much that we have to do, to help our mortal man."

      God gave me a list of things, that he wished for me to do.
 And foremost on the list, was to watch and care for you.

 And when you lie in bed at night the day's chores put to flight.
 God and I are closest to you....in the middle of the night.

      When you think of my life on earth, and all those crazy years.
 Because you are only human, they are bound to bring you tears.

 But do not be afraid to cry: it does relieve the pain.
 Remember there would be no flowers, unless there was some rain.

      I wish that I could tell you  all that God has planned.
 But if I were to tell you, you wouldn't understand.

 But one thing is for certain, though my life on earth is o'er.
 I'm closer to you now, than I ever was before.

      There are many rocky roads ahead of you and many hills to climb;
  But together we can do it by taking one day at a time.

 It was always my philosophy and I'd like it for you too;
 That as you give unto the world, the world will give to you.

      If you can help somebody who's in sorrow and pain;
 Then you can say to God at night......"My day was not in vain."

 And now I am contented....that my life was worthwhile.
 Knowing as I passed along the way I made somebody smile.

 So if you meet somebody who is sad and feeling low;
 Just lend a hand to pick him up, as on your way you go.

      When you're walking down the street and you've got me on your mind;
 I'm walking in your footsteps only half a step behind.

 And when it's time for you to go....from that body to be free.
 Remember you're not going.....you're coming here to me.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael Branson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fire Starting
Date: 30 Jun 1998 21:19:27 -0500

Iron Tounge

Nest time you go to a Rendezvous or living history event look for a spinner.
Those people who spin thread on spinning wheels usually have a pile of flax
laying around. I have carried flax for years. It will ignite just fine as
your birds nest. It is faster than quite a few modern materials a lot of
folks use. Another material that works well for the birds nest is excelsior
from packing crates. But, I prefer flax if it is available. I carry it in my
shooting pouch with some char cloth and a small steel and flint. works
great.
Regards
M. Branson
-----Original Message-----


>thanks capt for you input i dont have berch butt will try somother wood
that
>might work. how do you make good char.?? ive had littl eluck with puting it
in
>a tin and roasting it on tha stove????!!!! how am i doing ugh.  iron tounge
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael Branson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Have we forgotten the mountain men?
Date: 30 Jun 1998 21:28:30 -0500

I ron Tonge

I usually use char that is made from pure cotton cloth. At the local fabric
store you can find both round and rectangular lamp wick for oil lamps. It is
great as char. I put some into a small band aid can and punch a small hole
in the lid. I put it in the stove and watch the smoke coming from the hole .
When the hole stops smoking I pull the can out of the fire and bingo char
cloth. Another source for cloth is the pure hand made stuff you can buy from
central America. There are a few traders who come to Rendezvous from Texas
who usually bring in some bolts of cloth that are pure cotton and they burn
quite well. Don't use wool it is naturally fire resistent.

M. Branson
-----Original Message-----


>In a message dated 98-06-27 01:30:05 EDT, you write:
>
><<  i can get flint sparks . ican get char cloth to ignite but thats as far
as
>it goes i
> usualy give up   iron tounge  >>
>
>Once you get the char glowing put it on some good tinder i.e.; dry tow.  My
>favorite tinder is the loose ends of hemp tent ropes it catches flame
really
>easily.  The trick is that the tinder has to be real dry if you want it to
>catch from the char.  Of course it helps to have a lot of hot air so you
can
>really blow on that glowing char to get the tinder to burn.  Good or bad I
>have a lot of hot air so I can just blow that glowing ember into a flame in
no
>time.  Try the rope end, unravel it and make a nest of rope ends or tinder
and
>blow.
>
>Your Humble Servant
>
>C.T. Oakes
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasins
Date: 30 Jun 1998 23:50:02 EDT

In a message dated 98-06-30 17:36:44 EDT, you write:

<< Settle a arguement for me. When did the so called hardsoled moccasins
 become common? { Plains Indian style} >>

Earliest concrete documentation I know of for multiple & rawhide soles is in
the Louis & Clark Journal in 1805.  Clark mentions double soles on June 23,
Louis echeos this on the next day.  July 19th, Louis mentions "a sole of
buffalo-hide in parchment".

NM



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael Branson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fire making
Date: 30 Jun 1998 21:47:03 -0500

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Several years ago say about 10 if I remember there was a fella from =
kansas who was writing books about primitive living. He did a great book =
about fire making with flint and steel and with all natural materials. I =
used his method to build a bow drill and have made fire with one for a =
long time for my history classes. I finally succeeded in teaching one =
student to make a fire with the bow drill. It was grand. Now, if one of =
you can just remember the name of the book and author then maybe you =
could post it. I remember John something or other. Another thing i used =
to use quite a bit when I still used tobacco, was a length of ramrod =
thimble. Usually about 1.5 " long. I soldered a twisted loop of wire =
onto the middle of it. I then placed a 6"-8" length of round 3/8" or =
5/16" lamp wick in the ramrod tube. Wear it on a thong around the neck. =
When you need to light your cigar or pipe or camp fire tinder or god =
forbid a (cigarette). Just lay the tube on the top of a nice flat piece =
of flint. Push a little of the round wick out the end and strike a few =
sparks into the chared end. It lights quick. When your done pull it down =
into the tube and block the end with your finger. After a few moments =
without oxygen the smouldering end goes out. Old timers used it here in =
Colorado and all through the south west for years. I think it is called =
a tinder tube.=20

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living. He=20
did a great book about fire making with flint and steel and with all =
natural=20
materials. I used his method to build a bow drill and have made fire =
with one=20
for a long time for my history classes. I finally succeeded in teaching =
one=20
student to make a fire with the bow drill. It was grand. Now, if one of =
you can=20
just remember the name of the book and author then maybe you could post =
it. I=20
remember John something or other. Another thing i used to use quite a =
bit when I=20
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"=20
long. I soldered a twisted loop of wire onto the middle of it. I then =
placed a=20
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tube. Wear it on a thong around the neck. When you need to light your =
cigar or=20
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on the=20
top of a nice flat piece of flint. Push a little of the round wick out =
the end=20
and strike a few sparks into the chared end. It lights quick. When your =
done=20
pull it down into the tube and block the end with your finger. After a =
few=20
moments without oxygen the smouldering end goes out. Old timers used it =
here in=20
Colorado and all through the south west for years. I think it is called =
a tinder=20
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From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fire making
Date: 01 Jul 1998 00:09:07 EDT

I have his book which is a compliation of all of his written books into
one book.  Saves quite a bit on printing costs.  Anyway the title of the
book is "Primitive Wilderness Living & Survival Skills"  by John and Geri
McPhearson.  Quite good!

Ted

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