Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Date: 02 Mar 2004 06:36:36 -0800 (PST)
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I have to agree with you Crazy on cats, they don't need much to put them down. My cousin has shot several when running his two dogs after coons with a single shot 22 cal. rifle. His neighbor has killed over 30 cats in 40 years, the largest percentage went down with a 22 cal. pistol and long rifle ammo.
I know this is true as I have seen pictures of the neighbors cats as well as being with my cousin and killing one of those cats years ago near Loveland Colorado. Really surprised me that their skulls weren't thicker.
Nate
GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote:
Gentlemen
I've sat back and read this line for as long as I could handle it without saying something. The best protection from bears and cats is sitting on top of your shoulders and one only has to use it to help keep ya out of trouble.
As a rule when they do attack it is from ambush or it happens so fast one has no time to react so all those modern guns are really only good for your peace of mind.
Those Mountain Men back then faced more Griz and cats in a years time then any of us will ever face in our life times and they did it with muzzleloading flint locks.
Sure some got chewed up but more of them died by drowning then by bears, cats or Indians.
When I am riding through Grizz country I carry my 12 gage trade gun that has been converted to cap lock (I may be fool hardy but I ain't stupid I want to make sure that the one shot I have if I have time to use it, goes off) loaded with buck and ball. I've never had to use it in self defense but I have had to keep it close at hand a time or two just to make me feal safe.
As for Cat's it does not take much knock down power to take one of them down.
If ya have only one shot then ya better make it count ether on the critter or on your self so ya don't have to suffer much. (VBG)
As a rule In an area where cats are hunted regularly they are very timid and very seldom seen. It is mainly in areas where they have stop the hunting of cats that there has been trouble with them.
When in bear and cat country be aware of what is going on around you and when camping in griz country do not cook in your camp where you are going to sleep and hang your food in a tree away from where you sleep and you should not have much trouble with them. The best protection in Grizz country is a good horse they will sense the bear long before you do.
See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot
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<DIV>
<DIV>I have to agree with you Crazy on cats, they don't need much to put them down. My cousin has shot several when running his two dogs after coons with a single shot 22 cal. rifle. His neighbor has killed over 30 cats in 40 years, the largest percentage went down with a 22 cal. pistol and long rifle ammo. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I know this is true as I have seen pictures of the neighbors cats as well as being with my cousin and killing one of those cats years ago near Loveland Colorado. Really surprised me that their skulls weren't thicker.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10">Gentlemen <BR>I've sat back and read this line for as long as I could handle it without saying something. The best protection from bears and cats is sitting on top of your shoulders and one only has to use it to help keep ya out of trouble. <BR>As a rule when they do attack it is from ambush or it happens so fast one has no time to react so all those modern guns are really only good for your peace of mind. <BR>Those Mountain Men back then faced more Griz and cats in a years time then any of us will ever face in our life times and they did it with muzzleloading flint locks. <BR>Sure some got chewed up but more of them died by drowning then by bears, cats or Indians. <BR>When I am riding through Grizz country I carry my 12 gage trade gun that has been converted to cap lock (I may be fool hardy but I ain't stupid I want to make sure
that the one shot I have if I have time to use it, goes off) loaded with buck and ball. I've never had to use it in self defense but I have had to keep it close at hand a time or two just to make me feal safe. <BR>As for Cat's it does not take much knock down power to take one of them down. <BR>If ya have only one shot then ya better make it count ether on the critter or on your self so ya don't have to suffer much. (VBG) <BR>As a rule In an area where cats are hunted regularly they are very timid and very seldom seen. It is mainly in areas where they have stop the hunting of cats that there has been trouble with them. <BR><BR>When in bear and cat country be aware of what is going on around you and when camping in griz country do not cook in your camp where you are going to sleep and hang your food in a tree away from where you sleep and you should not have much trouble with them. The best protection in Grizz country is a good horse they will sense the bear long before you do.
<BR>See ya on the trail <BR>Crazy Cyot</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Date: 02 Mar 2004 12:45:31 -0500
Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm suggestion, both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and mountain lion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrain ourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like there is some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice loaded with "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade gun in percussion.
A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will understand:
Are trade guns by definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean that you can shoot both round ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? Are they flintlock only?
When we say "buck and ball" does that mean that you are actually loading both round ball and buckshot at the same time?
For the bear/lion protection use that I have as a premise for this discussion, was the trade gun recommended over a large bore rifle because a "buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know this is not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)?
Finally, any suggestions on who offers trade guns that fit this bill. I had one suggestion for a custom trade gun (is that the same as a fusil?) maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer?
Thanks for your patience with me.
Lou
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Date: 02 Mar 2004 13:31:31 -0800 (PST)
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I hit the wrong button and deleted the message from "Livining the Past" before I could respond. A gun makes a loud noise if you want also, plus the second shot has something to go with it if the bear hasn't read all the studies on what they pose to do when they here loud noises, I here some of them can't read at all............... Nature has no rules.
I've hunted black bear on the North Carolina coast near the other banks. Two sows we took in the fall a couple of years ago were 275 to 300 pounds each. The brush is thicker than anything I have ever seen before. The bears are so quite, if they wanted you on foot, there would be no chance for ya. The boars get up to 700 lbs with 500 lbs being real common. The record was something like 850+/- a few years ago, lots of good habitat in that area. I always had a .44 mag. right in front with FMJs just for comfort. My .54 flint rifle was always ready, but I was real glad I had my ruger when I turned around while slipping up the cut and saw 2 bears standing not 35 yards away, looking at me, right where I had walked thru. Yes makes living real exciting, you can almost hear the dust fall, things get so clear and quiet. Just my 2 cents. Can you attach pictures to this list? I have one of a sow and cub I took while I was riding under a tripod stand on a 4 wheeler all alone. They
ain't scar't for nothing. A picture is worth a few hundred words at least. Exciting indeed!
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<DIV>I hit the wrong button and deleted the message from "Livining the Past" before I could respond. A gun makes a loud noise if you want also, plus the second shot has something to go with it if the bear hasn't read all the studies on what they pose to do when they here loud noises, I here some of them can't read at all............... Nature has no rules. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I've hunted black bear on the North Carolina coast near the other banks. Two sows we took in the fall a couple of years ago were 275 to 300 pounds each. The brush is thicker than anything I have ever seen before. The bears are so quite, if they wanted you on foot, there would be no chance for ya. The boars get up to 700 lbs with 500 lbs being real common. The record was something like 850+/- a few years ago, lots of good habitat in that area. I always had a .44 mag. right in front with FMJs just for comfort. My .54 flint rifle was always ready, but I was real glad I had my ruger when I turned around while slipping up the cut and saw 2 bears standing not 35 yards away, looking at me, right where I had walked thru. Yes makes living real exciting, you can almost hear the dust fall, things get so clear and quiet. Just my 2 cents. Can you attach pictures to this list? I have
one of a sow and cub I took while I was riding under a tripod stand on a 4 wheeler all alone. They ain't scar't for nothing. A picture is worth a few hundred words at least. Exciting indeed!<BR></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Date: 02 Mar 2004 17:03:57 -0500
I took a look at the Caywood Guns website and it looks like the majority of the guns are sold with barrel sizes of between 20 - 28 gauge. What gauge smoothbore trade gun should I be looking for? Isn't their an inverse relationship between guage and caliber (the larger the caliber the lower the guage). I thought somebody a 10-12 guage trade gun? What am I missing?
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Date: 02 Mar 2004 17:26:13 -0800 (PST)
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There are other things to consider.
Black bear are not grizzly bears. If a black bear attacks assume it wants to eat you. Fight back even if you don't have a gun. Even a child has been known to fight a black bear off; it seems they don't like their supper to squirm around so much. On the other hand a researcher in Canada played dead for a black bear and had all the flesh of both legs and most of one arm eaten away before she figured out playing dead didn't work with blacks. She survived. One arm.
Grizzly seems to be happy to let sleeping dogs lie. They like to fight. So don't squirm so much, they might think they can get a fight out of you. I doubt anyone I know could pin a griz anyway.
There are other things you won't hear talked about much. I'd hate to be female in grizzly country. Women have "issues" that bears react to. Even without that issue, they smell female. And sex is a no no in griz country. According to one researcher, attacks are often caused by a bear who thinks someone is encroaching on his territory, and I'm not talking about terrain. He said most couples who are attacked were "engaged".
The noise thing might work for black bear but I wouldn't trust it with griz. In the early years of the reintroduction program researchers were dropped by helicopter. Policy was to hit the ground running and climb a nearby tree until the noisy chopper left. It seems griz looked at the noise as a challenge. Pioneer researcher, John M. told me about at least one researcher who didn't get to a tree fast enough. Another thing I wonder about is the head wounds found in griz attacks; are they trying to stop the noise by attacking its source? I think if I get attacked I'll try to keep quiet as well as motionless. Could be difficult, but I doubt anyone will be around to hear me anyway.
Never shot a griz. If I have to, I think I'm with John Kramer. Big ball, buckshot and lots of powder. It will at least hurt him. If he kills me it will be better than a car wreck. I hate automobiles.
Lee
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<P>Black bear are not grizzly bears. If a black bear attacks assume it wants to eat you. Fight back even if you don't have a gun. Even a child has been known to fight a black bear off; it seems they don't like their supper to squirm around so much. On the other hand a researcher in Canada played dead for a black bear and had all the flesh of both legs and most of one arm eaten away before she figured out playing dead didn't work with blacks. She survived. One arm. </P>
<P>Grizzly seems to be happy to let sleeping dogs lie. They like to fight. So don't squirm so much, they might think they can get a fight out of you. I doubt anyone I know could pin a griz anyway.</P>
<P>There are other things you won't hear talked about much. I'd hate to be female in grizzly country. Women have "issues" that bears react to. Even without that issue, they smell female. And sex is a no no in griz country. According to one researcher, attacks are often caused by a bear who thinks someone is encroaching on his territory, and I'm not talking about terrain. He said most <U>couples</U> who are attacked were "engaged". </P>
<P> </P>
<P>The noise thing might work for black bear but I wouldn't trust it with griz. In the early years of the reintroduction program researchers were dropped by helicopter. Policy was to hit the ground running and climb a nearby tree until the noisy chopper left. It seems griz looked at the noise as a challenge. Pioneer researcher, John M. told me about at least one researcher who didn't get to a tree fast enough. Another thing I wonder about is the head wounds found in griz attacks; are they trying to stop the noise by attacking its source? I think if I get attacked I'll try to keep quiet as well as motionless. Could be difficult, but I doubt anyone will be around to hear me anyway.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Never shot a griz. If I have to, I think I'm with John Kramer. Big ball, buckshot and lots of powder. It will at least hurt him. If he kills me it will be better than a car wreck. I hate automobiles. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Lee</P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Date: 02 Mar 2004 18:34:04 -0800 (PST)
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Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> wrote:
Here in Canada, where the populace isn't nearly so well armed, we
tend to avoid situations which could lead to a confrontation with bears or
cougars. Last winter, we had the first adult killed by a cougar in the history
of the province: a cross-country skier who was skiing before dawn--alone.
Tragic, but an example of what *not* to do.
Angela,
Every year here in Wyoming, unarmed fishermen are mauled. They're doing nothing but minding their business, trying to pull little fish out of a brook. There are lots of differences between the bears in the mountains here and in Canada. I have firsthand information that bears were, and perhaps still are, being tranquilized with PCP. Do you recall the effect PCP has on human drug addicts? It makes them crazy. They are studied and tranquilized so much here. People in Alaska don't understand the encounters in this area, either. Bears up there don't seem to be as aggressive. Of course, you can still shoot them up there. Anyway, I think management has alot to do with the problem, and not necessarily people not thinking correctly. There are more maulings and encounters in Wyoming than ever hit the newspapers. People are always surprised at the numbers, because they never hear about them. It's something that everyone wants to keep quiet for the sake of tourism.
Fact is, there isn't enough room for the population of grizzly bears we have along with the extensive land use by sportsmen. Grizzlies here have learned that gunshots mean food (or a gut pile). They come running. Almost every kill has bear tracks around it. Anyway, this is too complicated.
And what's wrong with skiing before dawn? Isn't everyone prepared to die doing something they love?
Lee
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net></I></B> wrote:<BR><BR> Here in Canada, where the populace isn't nearly so well armed, we<BR>tend to avoid situations which could lead to a confrontation with bears or<BR>cougars. Last winter, we had the first adult killed by a cougar in the history<BR>of the province: a cross-country skier who was skiing before dawn--alone.<BR>Tragic, but an example of what *not* to do.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Angela,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Every year here in Wyoming, unarmed fishermen are mauled. They're doing nothing but minding their business, trying to pull little fish out of a brook. There are lots of differences between the bears in the mountains here and in Canada. I have firsthand information that bears were, and perhaps still are, being tranquilized with PCP. Do you recall the effect PCP has on human drug addicts? It makes them crazy. They are studied and tranquilized so much here. People in Alaska don't understand the encounters in this area, either. Bears up there don't seem to be as aggressive. Of course, you can still shoot them up there. Anyway, I think management has alot to do with the problem, and not necessarily people not thinking correctly. There are more maulings and encounters in Wyoming than ever hit the newspapers. People are always surprised at the numbers, because they never hear about them. It's something that everyone wants to keep quiet for the sake of
tourism. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Fact is, there isn't enough room for the population of grizzly bears we have along with the extensive land use by sportsmen. Grizzlies here have learned that gunshots mean food (or a gut pile). They come running. Almost every kill has bear tracks around it. Anyway, this is too complicated. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And what's wrong with skiing before dawn? Isn't everyone prepared to die doing something they love?</DIV>
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last Saturday night, i finally had begged, borrowed and bartered enough brain tan deer skins to start me a dandy new frock coat. and Sunday night i was finished (i was really motivated i worked most of the night and all day Sunday) now i am stuck........... the body of the coat is not the tailored type. so a split up the back, to accommodate riding isn't so easy to work in to the design of the coat. i was wondering if anyone had a similar type coat, and if they have the back split? ( crazy, Allen, don't you boys have coats like that?) i have some ideas but i thought some input might be wise to seek before go ahead and split the back.
thanks, Tom #1834 PRP
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<DIV>last Saturday night, i finally had begged, borrowed and bartered enough brain tan deer skins to start me a dandy new frock coat. and Sunday night i was finished (i was really motivated i worked most of the night and all day Sunday) now i am stuck........... the body of the coat is not the tailored type. so a split up the back, to accommodate riding isn't so easy to work in to the design of the coat. i was wondering if anyone had a similar type coat, and if they have the back split? ( crazy, Allen, don't you boys have coats like that?) i have some ideas but i thought some input might be wise to seek before go ahead and split the back.</DIV>
If you have the book "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" look on page 197. The painting is called "Catching Up" In the left is Provost's tent. It looks so much different than any others in his drawings, pyramid? In the book "Artist on the Oregon Trail" plate # 29 in is called "Attrapez des Chevaux" the tent has the same look. Also in that book plate #37, "Our Camp" look behind the cart.
I have been trying to find the histiry of the pyramid tent, so far not much luck. The web site for Tentsmiths mentions the Britsh wanted to use such a type some years early, but thats all I found so far. Like some feed back, I am sure this will stir the kettle!
Bill Gantic, Baker Party
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Date: 04 Mar 2004 13:23:28 -0800 (PST)
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For information on original tradeguns see: http://sittingfoxagency.com/success/part1.html
Nate
----- Original Message ----- From: <MunevarL@aol.com>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:45 AMSubject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm suggestion,
both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and mountainlion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrainourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like thereis some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice loadedwith "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade gunin percussion.
A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will
understand:
Are trade guns by definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean that
you can shoot both round ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? Arethey flintlock only?
When we say "buck and ball" does that mean that you are actually loading
both round ball and buckshot at the same time?
For the bear/lion protection use that I have as a premise for this
discussion, was the trade gun recommended over a large bore rifle because a"buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know thisis not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)?
Finally, any suggestions on who offers trade guns that fit this bill. I
had one suggestion for a custom trade gun (is that the same as a fusil?)maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer?
Thanks for your patience with me.Lou----------------------hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid009601c40085$69db3300$c6dbd642@tac2cool type="cite"><PRE wrap=""><FONT face=Arial>For information on original tradeguns see: <A href="http://sittingfoxagency.com/success/part1.html">http://sittingfoxagency.com/success/part1.html</A></FONT></PRE><PRE wrap=""><FONT face=Arial>Nate</FONT></PRE><PRE wrap="">----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:45 AM
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm suggestion,
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=""><!---->both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and mountain
lion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrain
ourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like there
is some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice loaded
with "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade gun
in percussion.
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will
Modern books are great for learning about the animal, but Fred Gowans' book Mountain Man & Grizzly is the best one for people who like this site. Mr. Gowans compiled almost every recorded instance of grizzly encounters known, from Lewis & Clark to late era mountaineers. Good stuff. Just thought I'd mention it since this subject has generated so much interest.
Lee
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<DIV>Modern books are great for learning about the animal, but Fred Gowans' book <EM>Mountain Man & Grizzly</EM> is the best one for people who like this site. Mr. Gowans compiled almost every recorded instance of grizzly encounters known, from Lewis & Clark to late era mountaineers. Good stuff. Just thought I'd mention it since this subject has generated so much interest.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee</DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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< I know the leading cause of death for Mountain Men certainly could be
drownings I just can't remember reading about that many drownings. But
like I said earlier, maybe I just remember the indian battle deaths
more as they are dramatic>
Probably because they were not writing down their experience as they struggled to not go under for the third time.
And in the battles, some may have survived to share their stories.
The facts, legends, and lack thereof is what makes study and discussion both interesting and non-ending.
Personally, I would think that the leading causes of death were less dramatic than drownings and battles. Things like gangrene, falls and illness must have taken their toll in large numbers without proper medical treatment being available.
How about starvation, dehydration, hypothermia?
Frank
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 3/8/2004 10:31:40 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: ways mtn men died</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV>BB said,</DIV>
<DIV> < I know the leading cause of death for Mountain Men certainly could be<BR>drownings I just can't remember reading about that many drownings. But<BR>like I said earlier, maybe I just remember the indian battle deaths<BR>more as they are dramatic></DIV>
<DIV> Probably because they were not writing down their experience as they struggled to not go under for the third time.</DIV>
<DIV> And in the battles, some may have survived to share their stories. </DIV>
<DIV> The facts, legends, and lack thereof is what makes study and discussion both interesting and non-ending.</DIV>
<DIV> Personally, I would think that the leading causes of death were less dramatic than drownings and battles. Things like gangrene, falls and illness must have taken their toll in large numbers without proper medical treatment being available. </DIV>
<DIV> How about starvation, dehydration, hypothermia?</DIV>
What a sad day. I was hoping that the woolen mill would rise from the ashes once again and produce some more fine blankets. It was an interesting place to visit. Guess I should have bought more of their blankets.
Teton
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I am interested in hearing some ideas on how you set-up your bed on primitive outings. The climate would be cool night time temps in the upper 20s-upper 30s but no snow on the ground. What do you use to insulate your body from the ground? (modern would be a foam pad and primitive, the way I have done it, is 6-9 inches of pine needles or leaves) But what about when there is little debris on the ground? Primarily chapparal? Are their any period correct alternatives to the modern foam pad that one would carry? What goes on top of this? Ground cloth (dimensions), shelter cloth (dimensions; do you use one or do you simply fold an oversized ground cloth over you to act a shelter from rain/snow? Blanket(s). How are they arranged? Any specifics? (folded in half, thirds, pinned, sewn together)
I have never gone on a mountain man era primitive trek. I have gone completely primitive (no pack, no sleeping bag/blanket, made my own shelter, debris for warmth) and modern backpacking but I wanted to know what to pack for a mountain man era trek.
Looking forward to hear your experiences. Lou
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Thanks to the camp for your suggestions. A number of you mentioned tanned hair-on sheepskin as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone provide me with a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link for buffalo robes?
Lou
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Buffalo robes and blankets thats the way to go. I have never seen sheep skin robes mention in any period writtings from the mountaineers. If you are going to look on ebay look up buffalo hides or robes, you will find them, and if you play it right for a good price. Those robes of Wes are very nice, used a trail partners a couple of times, much lighter than commercial tan. His prices are good to. I am going that way. Others in our party also add saddle bankets to there bed, great padding.
Bill Gantic, Baker Party
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Where do you live? I have a friend that deals in hides/furs etc in Utah.
Wynn
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:50 PM
> Thanks to the camp for your suggestions. A number of you mentioned tanned
hair-on sheepskin as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone provide me with
a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link
for buffalo robes?
>
> Lou
>
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Frank Fusco <Rifleman1776@cox-internet.com> wrote:
I tried a search at Barnes & Noble for the Gowans book but they didn't list it although they do have several other titles by him.
I'll lend you mine if you send your address offline. Museum of the Fur Tade may have some and I think Bents Fort gift shop had some. It was recently reprinted. I'll see if I can locate some of them. If not I'll send mine.
Lee
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<DIV> I tried a search at Barnes & Noble for the Gowans book but they didn't list it although they do have several other titles by him.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'll lend you mine if you send your address offline. Museum of the Fur Tade may have some and I think Bents Fort gift shop had some. It was recently reprinted. I'll see if I can locate some of them. If not I'll send mine.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Magpie, Ya know...you could be cuter, but I know who I'm sleeping with at the next winter doin's <g>. I'm glad it was you who won that buff hunt raffle, couldn't have happened to a better brother. (except me, of course <s>). You can't beat a good buff robe for cold doin's. Yfab, Randy
----- Original Message -----
Ooooouch....! That hurt ,Ben. <G> ...but here's a jpg of that monster:
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Magpie, Ya know...you could be cuter, but I know who I'm sleeping with at the next winter doin's <g>. I'm glad it was you who won that buff hunt raffle, couldn't have happened to a better brother. (except me, of course <s>). You can't beat a good buff robe for cold doin's. Yfab, Randy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" size=4>complete dispersal of a large bison herd including a 6 year old semen tested white buffalo and "two BIG tanned buffalo hides" ( their words ). </FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE></DIV>Hi: Havn't been keeping up with the list for a long time but this discussion caught my eye. We have a buff hide and believe me it is heavy to sleep under. Also, it does not "drape" so there are lots of air gaps. Wool blankets with the majority under you are the was to go. No doubt.<BR><BR><BR>Maryln Adams
<DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr> <a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2731??PS=">Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as $29.95/month.</a> </html>
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You boys have really been busy beating the bushes, some really nice items on this auction. Like the beaded knife sheath, the Chief's Trade gun and that W&S knife is sweet. Thanks for the reminder, now I just have to figure how to get the credit card from the wife.
Thanks again.
Nate
Randal Bublitz <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> wrote:
Brothers & Friends,
Buck Conner is readying the A.M.M. auction , which will run on e-bay
March 27- April 27. If you want to preview the nearly 50 quality items
that will be up for auction , you may see them at
http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/index.html -click on e-bay to see auction
items , besides trade gun that will be auctioned on his personal site.
Check it out, and on March 27 - let the bidding begin. Yfab , Randy
Randal Bublitz
rjbublitz@earthlink.net
"Life is short, paddle hard..."
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<DIV>WOW Randy,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You boys have really been busy beating the bushes, some really nice items on this auction. Like the beaded knife sheath, the Chief's Trade gun and that W&S knife is sweet. Thanks for the reminder, now I just have to figure how to get the credit card from the wife.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Brothers & Friends, <BR>Buck Conner is readying the A.M.M. auction , which will run on e-bay<BR>March 27- April 27. If you want to preview the nearly 50 quality items<BR>that will be up for auction , you may see them at <BR>http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/index.html -click on e-bay to see auction<BR>items , besides trade gun that will be auctioned on his personal site. <BR>Check it out, and on March 27 - let the bidding begin. Yfab , Randy <BR><BR><BR><BR>Randal Bublitz<BR>rjbublitz@earthlink.net<BR>"Life is short, paddle hard..."<BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</BLOCKQUOTE><p><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Subject: MtMan-List: American Mountain Men's 2004 Auction
Date: 26 Mar 2004 10:39:18 -0800 (PST)
--0-731710542-1080326358=:9634
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Ladies & Gentlemen,
This morning I talked to Buck Conner of the AMM, he had just finished the last 'touches', as he called it on loading the American Mountain Men's 2004 Auction into Ebay. He asked if I would send this information out to this list and several other message boards.
The 'Chief's Trade Gun will be at: http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/index.html
from this site you can view some of the articles that will be on Ebay by moving down the page where the devil is and 'clicking on' 2004 Aucion or just go to: http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/eBay/auctions.html He said this site will go away once the second auction starts on April 17th.
At this temporary web site you can go to the 'Ebay' page by 'clicking on' their logo or just go to: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItemsLinkButtons&userid=nwgun
This sounds like a lot but once Ebay starts at 7AM PST on this Saturday, just bookmark the 'nwgun' Ebay and the trade gun sites.
*The Chief's Trade Gun will run from March 27th - April 27th.
*First Auction of (32) AMM items and (4) additional items will begin on this Saturday - March 27th - April 6th.
*Second Auction of (30) AMM plus items will begin on April 17th - April 26th.
All the auctions will open on the starting dates shown at 7AM PST according to Buck.
Thank you for your interest.
Nate
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--0-731710542-1080326358=:9634
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<DIV>Ladies & Gentlemen,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This morning I talked to Buck Conner of the AMM, he had just finished the last 'touches', as he called it on loading the American Mountain Men's 2004 Auction into Ebay. He asked if I would send this information out to this list and several other message boards.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The 'Chief's Trade Gun will be at: <A href="http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/index.html">http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/index.html</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>from this site you can view some of the articles that will be on Ebay by moving down the page where the devil is and 'clicking on' 2004 Aucion or just go to: <A href="http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/eBay/auctions.html">http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/eBay/auctions.html</A> He said this site will go away once the second auction starts on April 17th.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>At this temporary web site you can go to the 'Ebay' page by 'clicking on' their logo or just go to: <A href="http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItemsLinkButtons&userid=nwgun">http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItemsLinkButtons&userid=nwgun</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This sounds like a lot but once Ebay starts at 7AM PST on this Saturday, just bookmark the 'nwgun' Ebay and the trade gun sites.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>*The Chief's Trade Gun will run from March 27th - April 27th.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>*First Auction of (32) AMM items and (4) additional items will begin on this Saturday - March 27th - April 6th.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>*Second Auction of (30) AMM plus items will begin on April 17th - April 26th.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>All the auctions will open on the starting dates shown at 7AM PST according to Buck.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thank you for your interest.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nate</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><p><hr size=1><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied Mark Baker, John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for several of their adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class gentlemen and has alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman he really likes is Rex Norman, they have some interesting discussions from time to time, Rex is very open minded.
I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them when he was running the same company a few years later or not, but would think these gentlemen haven't changed.
True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. That must be hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are bothered.
Nate
> beaverboy
> if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be burning---dan anderson
> was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me offline and
<P>My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied Mark Baker, John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for several of their adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class gentlemen and has alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman he really likes is Rex Norman, they have some interesting discussions from time to time, Rex is very open minded.</P>
<P>I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them when he was running the same company a few years later or not, but would think these gentlemen haven't changed.</P>
<P>True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. That must be hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are bothered.</P>
<P>Nate<BR><BR><BR>> beaverboy<BR>> if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be burning---dan anderson<BR>> was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me offline and<BR>> i'll give him dan's e-mail address--<BR>><BR>> hawk<BR>><BR>> ________________________________________________________________<BR>> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!<BR>> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!<BR>> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!<BR>><BR>> ----------------------<BR>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR>><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>usin<p><hr size=1><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
I think Buck would agreed with you 100% Paul, he has shown a similar response on these men. There are a few that take advantage of their positions.
Nate
Paul Jones <pwjones@myexcel.com> wrote:
My involvement with Mark, Curry, and Wes had nothing to do with Clark & Sons or any other commercial enterprise. Mark, who I have known for some years, is a true gentleman, a great researcher, genuinely humble, and a fine fellow all around. Wes is likewise a good fellow and a fine craftsman. Curry, and this is merely a biased opinion, is not in the same league, but then as noted that is a personal view.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 3:55 PM
My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied Mark Baker, John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for several of their adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class gentlemen and has alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman he really likes is Rex Norman, they have some interesting discussions from time to time, Rex is very open minded.
I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them when he was running the same company a few years later or not, but would think these gentlemen haven't changed.
True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. That must be hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are bothered.
Nate
> beaverboy
> if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be burning---dan anderson
> was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me offline and
> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
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<DIV>
<DIV>I think Buck would agreed with you 100% Paul, he has shown a similar response on these men. There are a few that take advantage of their positions.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nate<BR><BR><B><I>Paul Jones <pwjones@myexcel.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2>My involvement with Mark, Curry, and Wes had nothing to do with Clark & Sons or any other commercial enterprise. Mark, who I have known for some years, is a true gentleman, a great researcher, genuinely humble, and a fine fellow all around. Wes is likewise a good fellow and a fine craftsman. Curry, and this is merely a biased opinion, is not in the same league, but then as noted that is a personal view.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<P>My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied Mark Baker, John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for several of their adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class gentlemen and has alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman he really likes is Rex Norman, they have some interesting discussions from time to time, Rex is very open minded.</P>
<P>I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them when he was running the same company a few years later or not, but would think these gentlemen haven't changed.</P>
<P>True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. That must be hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are bothered.</P>
<P>Nate<BR><BR><BR>> beaverboy<BR>> if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be burning---dan anderson<BR>> was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me offline and<BR>> i'll give him dan's e-mail address--<BR>><BR>> hawk<BR>><BR>> ________________________________________________________________<BR>> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!<BR>> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!<BR>> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!<BR>><BR>> ----------------------<BR>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR>><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>usin
<P>
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<html><div style='background-color:'><P>Don't waste your time. In survival skill circles the overall feeling is that while it all sounds good in theory, the courses are taught in a lecture sort of setting and very little hands on or actually practical application in a field setting. Tom Brown does have the fact that he is a good marketeer and has a following that spreads his class sign-ups. Most hard core survivalist, I know, who have been in the field for 30 years don't really think to much of Tom Brown. But you can't down a guy who knows how to make a living doing what he likes to do and knows how to market himself. </P>
<P>By the way, the new Tom Brown Tracker Knife made so popular by the movie, "The Hunted", may look really cool but is as unpractical a knife as any I've seen, and at $300.00 is a waste of money in my opinion.</P>
<P>Later,</P>
<P>Mike Powell, Poison River Booshway</P>
<DIV>AMM #1769 </DIV>POISON RIVER PARTY
<DIV></DIV>"Ride, Ride, Ride"
<DIV></DIV>
<P>"Aux Aliments du Pays"!</P>
<P> >From: MarkLoader@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. >Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:39:55 EST > >Hello the Camp > >I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr. >His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the Indian >there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these books you should. >My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the courses he offers on >wilderness skills and tracking? >Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849 </P></div><br clear=all><hr> <a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2749??PS=">Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe.</a> </html>
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<P>There is a man in your area, Grand Junction, who teaches survival skills and tracking and you would be better off to take one of his courses. He has property not far from the AMM property where he teaches, though he lives in Grand Junction. His name is Mel DeWeese and he goes by "Mountain Mel". He is a good personal friend of mine and he has travelled the world over teaching survival skills and will get you out in the field. Mention my name and tell him that I referred you. Contact him at, 970-242-8507 or e-mail at <A href="mailto:mtnmel@youwillsurvive.com">mtnmel@youwillsurvive.com</A> </P>
<P>Believe me, this guy has forgotten more than I will ever know about survival and is a wealth of knowledge. Plus as an added bonus has some of the greatest stories you have ever heard and is a kick in the pants with his wit and sense of humor. Being an ol' military man he loves to kick back a few beers and swap lies.</P>
<P>I missed a chance to go with him last year to the Amazon. (no fundage) He always invites me to go and tells me waht went on with the natives. An Awesome Guy!</P>
<P>Later,</P>
<P>Mike Powell<BR></P>
<DIV>AMM #1769 </DIV>POISON RIVER PARTY
<DIV></DIV>"Ride, Ride, Ride"
<DIV></DIV>"Aux Aliments du Pays"! >From: MarkLoader@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. >Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:41:27 EST > >Mike I was hoping you would respond. You have a lot of exposure to this >subject and I want your opinion. The movie was a disappointment to say the least >too much Hollywood. The DVD had some extras that were well worth the time. >What got me interested is his latest book Case Files of a Tracker. >In it is a 1999 case he calls Cougar Canyon. In reading it. I was obvious it >was the true story of a boy lost four years ago west of Fort Collins, Colo. >were I live. Recently the boy remains were found and what was found matched the >prediction of one of Tom's trackers to a tee. High in the rocks near the trail >but out of view were found the 3 year old tennis shoes, part of his skull, a >tooth and some of his cloths. More cloths were found than he predicted. Tom >and his tracker come on the scene 9 days after the boy was lost and search had >been suspended. They found his tracks after that time lapse and all the search >traffic. Told where a searcher with dog had followed the trail and the >searcher did not notice the dog picking up the sent. Where the boy had crossed the >river and thrown rocks into it and where the Mountain Lion had started stalking >while the searches were on the other side of the river. The also determined he >could not hear there calls because of the river noise. Much of this has be >supported by the local paper. > >A lot of his experiences do seam for fetched and not understandable by the >average man. But if I would think the people that he came in contact with during >his development would come forward i.e. teachers, scout master and some of >the people he has found a live. > >I am considering taking his basic course next year to check it out. So if >anyone has personal experience with his school let me know. >Thanks Roadkill </div><br clear=all><hr> <a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2743??PS=">Get tax tips, tools and access to IRS forms û all in one place at MSN Money!</a> </html>
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<html><div style='background-color:'><P>Thank you John,</P>
<P>I forgot to include that my good friend, Mtn. Mel, once had bumper stickers made that said, <STRONG>"Real survival instruction saves lives, No mystical B.S., Please"! </STRONG>This was in response to all the Tom Brown hype.</P>
<P>Later,</P>
<P>Mike<BR></P>
<DIV>AMM #1769 </DIV>POISON RIVER PARTY
<DIV></DIV>"Ride, Ride, Ride"
<DIV></DIV>"Aux Aliments du Pays"! >From: John Dearing <jdearing@brick.net> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. >Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:57:48 -0600 > >Right on. >I took a coupla classes back in the early 80's and would have been >better off reading some good books and practicing what I read. > >I was young and dumb in those days, and had more money than sense. > > Mike described the curriculum correctly. Lots of lecture with >little hands on, and some of those exercises aren't all that >educational. Not to mention all the BS he calls Native American >philosophy. >It's new age religion BS pure and simple. > >Better to save your money and simply hang out with folks who know >what they are doing. > >I saw the prototype for the "tracker knife" at one of the classes, >and had the same thoughts about the practicality of the knife. IMHO, >Brown is a better marketer than he is a survival instructor. > >J.D. > >>Don't waste your time. In survival skill circles the overall >>feeling is that while it all sounds good in theory, the courses are >>taught in a lecture sort of setting and very little hands on or >>actually practical application in a field setting. Tom Brown does >>have the fact that he is a good marketeer and has a following that >>spreads his class sign-ups. Most hard core survivalist, I know, >>who have been in the field for 30 years don't really think to much >>of Tom Brown. But you can't down a guy who knows how to make a >>living doing what he likes to do and knows how to market himself. >> >>By the way, the new Tom Brown Tracker Knife made so popular by the >>movie, "The Hunted", may look really cool but is as unpractical a >>knife as any I've seen, and at $300.00 is a waste of money in my >>opinion. >> >>Later, >> >>Mike Powell, Poison River Booshway >>AMM #1769 >>POISON RIVER PARTY >>"Ride, Ride, Ride" >> >>"Aux Aliments du Pays"! >> >> >From: MarkLoader@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Tom Brown >>Jr. >Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:39:55 EST > >Hello the Camp > >I >>have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr. >His >>experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the >>Indian >there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of >>these books you should. >My question is: Has anyone in the group >>taken any of the courses he offers on >wilderness skills and >>tracking? >Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849 >> >> >>---------- >><http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2749??PS=>Check out MSN PC Safety & >>Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. >>---------------------- hist_text list info: >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html </div><br clear=all><hr> <a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2746??PS=">All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN.</a> </html>
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Subject: MtMan-List: the alamo and history channel special
Date: 30 Mar 2004 16:04:54 -0700
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I personally am looking forward to seeing the Alamo. I have a profound respect for Texans and their struggle for independence. I'll bet all you Texas brothers are "stoked"
i saw a special on the history channel last night about davey crocket and Daniel boone, I thought i saw mark baker playing davey crocked????? I've never noticed before but baker looks an awful lot like Crocket. i also watched another special on the filming of the movie and Billy Bob Thornton mentioned something about the on set re enactors. he said he was a little intimidated when he would come out of his trailer in the morning sipping a cappuccino and would see the re enactors bathing in the creek having slept outside all night.
just some thoughts, Tom AMM # 1834 PRP
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/30/2004 11:27:40 AM
A friend of mine, Taylor Anderson, worked for the duration of the filming of the Alamo movie, both as an extra and as a weapons/cannon expert (he is probably the finest period rifle and pistol maker in Texas at present and his knowledge of period firearms if beyond compare). His opinion is to be trusted.
Thought some of you might be going to this movie, so I thought is appropriate to share Taylor's thoughts with you.
Paul
Howdy, all. I went to Austin for the Cast and Crew screening of The Alamo last night. A good time was had by all and I got to visit with good folks again. Mainly, though, YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE THIS FILM!!! They cut out a LOT of stuff, including a lot of scenes of me! (how rude) , but it is still outstanding. If you were in this movie, you WILL be seen. (sometimes more than some of the 'stars' whose storylines went away during the cut). The bomb gag is still there, but it has been slightly modified so that it is not quite as egregious--a point that I still felt compelled to thank and harrass John Lee about--He took my comments sheepishly, but then I went on to congratulate him for EVERYTHING else! I am pretty tickled. So many people worked so hard and so long, and they will feel the vindication of a job well done!
Taylor
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<DIV>I personally am looking forward to seeing the Alamo. I have a profound respect for Texans and their struggle for independence. I'll bet all you Texas brothers are "stoked" </DIV>
<DIV>i saw a special on the history channel last night about davey crocket and Daniel boone, I thought i saw mark baker playing davey crocked????? I've never noticed before but baker looks an awful lot like Crocket. i also watched another special on the filming of the movie and Billy Bob Thornton mentioned something about the on set re enactors. he said he was a little intimidated when he would come out of his trailer in the morning sipping a cappuccino and would see the re enactors bathing in the creek having slept outside all night. </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2>A friend of mine, Taylor Anderson, worked for the duration of the filming of the Alamo movie, both as an extra and as a weapons/cannon expert (he is probably the finest period rifle and pistol maker in Texas at present and his knowledge of period firearms if beyond compare). His opinion is to be trusted.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2>Thought some of you might be going to this movie, so I thought is appropriate to share Taylor's thoughts with you.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>Howdy, all. I went to Austin for the Cast and Crew screening of The Alamo last night. A good time was had by all and I got to visit with good folks again. Mainly, though, YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE THIS FILM!!! They cut out a LOT of stuff, including a lot of scenes of me! (how rude) , but it is still outstanding. If you were in this movie, you WILL be seen. (sometimes more than some of the 'stars' whose storylines went away during the cut). The bomb gag is still there, but it has been slightly modified so that it is not quite as egregious--a point that I still felt compelled to thank and harrass John Lee about--He took my comments sheepishly, but then I went on to congratulate him for EVERYTHING else! I am pretty tickled. So many people worked so hard and so long, and they will feel the vindication of a job well done!</DIV>
I can offer a firsthand impression of the current tracker school experience. The standard class, required before taking any other classes, is heavily lecture based. The class is an attempt to provide students with all of the information they need to learn the skills necessary to survive in most environments without any modern gear if need be. There are some hands on skills taught, however to cover all of the material that way would take much longer than a week. In fact the estimate for how long you would need to practice just the skills covered in the standard to reach a point of mastery is about 10 years. The class gives everyone an equal basis of knowledge to prepare them for the more advanced classes. It is up to you to actually practice the stuff once you get home. Many people choose not to. This is perhaps one of the reasons some feel that tracker students don't learn much that is useful. That is a reflection on the individual students, not the school. The comment about not
being about hard core survival is regarding how you actually live while most of the classes, not the skills taught.You do not hike miles each day and live as if in a full survival situation. They can provide you with more information by not doing those things. I went to the standard last spring with a pretty good understanding of the basics of the skills taught. I figured it would be mostly just something to get out of the way in order to take more advanced classes. What I found however, was that although a large portion of the material was not new to me, I picked up on some of the more subtle aspects that make the things work so much better than just following directions in a book. Tom does not teach much, or sometimes I understand, any of the standard class. He does have excellent instructors, who are always willing to make sure that you get the most out of the experience. The tracking portion covers basicly everything in the Field Guide to Nature Observation and Tracking as well
as The Art and Science of Tracking, plus some extra stuff you really have to take the class for. The advanced standard is biased the other way towards hands on experience learning how to make the various items needed for survival such as shelter, containers, tools for hunting, etc. You could never finish in class all of the projects that you start. Again there are tips and tricks I have not seen in print, and having someone to help you while learning saves considerable time and unnecessary mistakes. In addition, a number of traps not in books are presented, although it is up to you to actually practice them at home. Advanced camo and movement are presented and a demo of military camo vs what you are taught is done which really points out the limitations of the military stuff. Tom does teach part of the class. The final class which I can comment on is advanced tracking. This class had the most lecture by Tom of the three. It is very intense, with none of the material from the
standard repeated. Most time is devoted to actually tracking in a variety of difficult conditions. The first day we tracked yearling deer in pine straw, week old trails which the deer used repeatedly. It can be sort of difficult to stay on the correct trail, but after passing by the same area a few days later, the tracks just about lept out. You really reprogram your brain to see tracks almost everyone else would miss. Pick tracking in debris and scrape tracking in sand are covered which allow you to find tracks which are years old. The easiest tracking was the last night. We tracked day old fox trails in pine needles at night. Being able to position the light source, plus having tracked in the other more difficult soils made it a breeze. The quality of the insruction at present is very good and beyond the advanced standard, you will not find the material in the other classes in a book. In fact, virtually nothing presented in the advanced tracking class could be effectivly taught
without actual student / instructor interaction. Prior to going to the Tracker School, I studied and practiced from books, Toms and others, for years. I think that the school is a very effective way to learn the material in significantly less time than it would take using just books. You also then gain the option of going on to other more advanced classes which teach things not found in any book. The skills have all proven effective for me so far. Realize what the class is and what it isn't. Go with an open mind. Tom says to prove him right or prove him wrong, just get off your ass and get some dirt time. When Kevin says to take a good look at the ground because you will never see it in the same way again in an hour, realize that he is not trying to be dramatic, you really will look at things differently. You will have taken the first small step towards seeing the world through the eyes of a master tracker. As far as the knife goes, I don't plan to get one either. I think it is
supposed to do too many things, and doesn't do any of them well. I'll be happy to answer any questions on or off list.
Nathan Offutt
MarkLoader@aol.com wrote:
Hello the Camp
I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr.
His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the Indian there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these books you should.
My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the courses he offers on wilderness skills and tracking?
Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
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<DIV>
<DIV>I can offer a firsthand impression of the current tracker school experience. The standard class, required before taking any other classes, is heavily lecture based. The class is an attempt to provide students with all of the information they need to learn the skills necessary to survive in most environments without any modern gear if need be. There are some hands on skills taught, however to cover all of the material that way would take much longer than a week. In fact the estimate for how long you would need to practice just the skills covered in the standard to reach a point of mastery is about 10 years. The class gives everyone an equal basis of knowledge to prepare them for the more advanced classes. It is up to you to actually practice the stuff once you get home. Many people choose not to. This is perhaps one of the reasons some feel that tracker students don't learn much that is useful. That is a reflection on the individual students, not the
school. The comment about not being about hard core survival is regarding how you actually live while most of the classes, not the skills taught.You do not hike miles each day and live as if in a full survival situation. They can provide you with more information by not doing those things. I went to the standard last spring with a pretty good understanding of the basics of the skills taught. I figured it would be mostly just something to get out of the way in order to take more advanced classes. What I found however, was that although a large portion of the material was not new to me, I picked up on some of the more subtle aspects that make the things work so much better than just following directions in a book. Tom does not teach much, or sometimes I understand, any of the standard class. He does have excellent instructors, who are always willing to make sure that you get the most out of the experience. The tracking portion covers basicly everything in the Field Guide to
Nature Observation and Tracking as well as The Art and Science of Tracking, plus some extra stuff you really have to take the class for. The advanced standard is biased the other way towards hands on experience learning how to make the various items needed for survival such as shelter, containers, tools for hunting, etc. You could never finish in class all of the projects that you start. Again there are tips and tricks I have not seen in print, and having someone to help you while learning saves considerable time and unnecessary mistakes. In addition, a number of traps not in books are presented, although it is up to you to actually practice them at home. Advanced camo and movement are presented and a demo of military camo vs what you are taught is done which really points out the limitations of the military stuff. Tom does teach part of the class. The final class which I can comment on is advanced tracking. This class had the most lecture by Tom of the three. It is very
intense, with none of the material from the standard repeated. Most time is devoted to actually tracking in a variety of difficult conditions. The first day we tracked yearling deer in pine straw, week old trails which the deer used repeatedly. It can be sort of difficult to stay on the correct trail, but after passing by the same area a few days later, the tracks just about lept out. You really reprogram your brain to see tracks almost everyone else would miss. Pick tracking in debris and scrape tracking in sand are covered which allow you to find tracks which are years old. The easiest tracking was the last night. We tracked day old fox trails in pine needles at night. Being able to position the light source, plus having tracked in the other more difficult soils made it a breeze. The quality of the insruction at present is very good and beyond the advanced standard, you will not find the material in the other classes in a book. In fact, virtually nothing presented in the advanced
tracking class could be effectivly taught without actual student / instructor interaction. Prior to going to the Tracker School, I studied and practiced from books, Toms and others, for years. I think that the school is a very effective way to learn the material in significantly less time than it would take using just books. You also then gain the option of going on to other more advanced classes which teach things not found in any book. The skills have all proven effective for me so far. Realize what the class is and what it isn't. Go with an open mind. Tom says to prove him right or prove him wrong, just get off your ass and get some dirt time. When Kevin says to take a good look at the ground because you will never see it in the same way again in an hour, realize that he is not trying to be dramatic, you really will look at things differently. You will have taken the first small step towards seeing the world through the eyes of a master tracker. As far as the knife goes, I don't
plan to get one either. I think it is supposed to do too many things, and doesn't do any of them well. I'll be happy to answer any questions on or off list.</DIV>
<DIV>I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr. </DIV>
<DIV>His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the Indian there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these books you should. </DIV>
<DIV>My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the courses he offers on wilderness skills and tracking?</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr size=1><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line.
Thanks Paul.
Nate.
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<DIV>Mr. Jones,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks Paul.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nate.</DIV><p><hr size=1><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
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Nathan, Send me your e-mail address and I'll send you the original pics direct to you. They got diluted in the transfer, posting etc.... Randy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/31/04 8:27:44 PM
Mr. Jones,
Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line.
Thanks Paul.
Nate.
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Nathan, Send me your e-mail address and I'll send you the original pics direct to you. They got diluted in the transfer, posting etc.... Randy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks Paul.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nate.</DIV>
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ooops.... my address usually appears automatically.....
rjbublitz@earthlink.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/31/04 8:44:24 PM
Nathan, Send me your e-mail address and I'll send you the original pics direct to you. They got diluted in the transfer, posting etc.... Randy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/31/04 8:27:44 PM
Mr. Jones,
Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line.
Thanks Paul.
Nate.
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Nathan, Send me your e-mail address and I'll send you the original pics direct to you. They got diluted in the transfer, posting etc.... Randy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks Paul.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nate.</DIV>
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