Hello. I've watched this list for a long time and decided to correspond a bit at times. I am an artist; I am familiar with many of you through following the archives. I'm interested in horses. I'll be in touch.
Lee
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<DIV>Hello. I've watched this list for a long time and decided to correspond a bit at times. I am an artist; I am familiar with many of you through following the archives. I'm interested in horses. I'll be in touch.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee </DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Welcome, I have enjoyed your inspiring artwork for quite some time. When i see the adds for your prints in the magazines i read. It takes me from the confines of modern life and allows me to gaze in to the past of the true mountaineers of the early 1800's and reflect on my own primitive adventures. I particularly enjoyed the one where the trapper is putting a buffalo robe on his horse. ya get a shiver just looking at it. Great work Lee keep em coming
Tom AMM#1834 Poison River Party
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/1/2004 8:41:13 AM
Hello. I've watched this list for a long time and decided to correspond a bit at times. I am an artist; I am familiar with many of you through following the archives. I'm interested in horses. I'll be in touch.
Lee
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Lee,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Welcome, I have enjoyed your inspiring artwork for quite some time. When i see the adds for your prints in the magazines i read. It takes me from the confines of modern life and allows me to gaze in to the past of the true mountaineers of the early 1800's and reflect on my own primitive adventures. I particularly enjoyed the one where the trapper is putting a buffalo robe on his horse. ya get a shiver just looking at it. Great work Lee keep em coming</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2> Tom AMM#1834 Poison River Party</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 2/1/2004 8:41:13 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: New Subscriber</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV>Hello. I've watched this list for a long time and decided to correspond a bit at times. I am an artist; I am familiar with many of you through following the archives. I'm interested in horses. I'll be in touch.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee </DIV>
<P>
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Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list: Possibles bag
Date: 01 Feb 2004 13:40:07 -0800 (PST)
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My possibles bag is canvas, about the 2/3 size of a pillow case, and ties shut at the top like any other bag. I put gun maintenence stuff, (lead, ladle, molds), fire starting stuff & extra tinder, a couple tools I need, and . . . other possbles in it. I have these things divided in a couple or three skin or canvas pouches just to keep every thing organized. I carry a strike-a-light, compass, and a tiny mirror (in case I get something in my eye and need to get it out), in my shooting bag which measures about 7 inches wide and 8 inches long. I carry these things in my shooting pouch just in case my pack horse runs off with all my regular stuff. Are there many period references to possibles bags? I remember seeing tanned skin pouches in museums called "possibles bags", with stripes of quill work and hair cones, about 20 inches square or so and of Indian manufacture, from about the end of the 19th century. These were collected as Indian artifacts. Though late, and not all of them are,
could they be any relation to what the mountaineers carried?
I suppose a possibles bag could be any bag that a man could carry things in. Cowboys carried "warbags", and Joe Back ( Horses Hitches & Rocky Trails) drew one from early 20th c. that looked like a small seabag or dufflebag. Could possibles bag include something that looked like those?
Lee
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<DIV>My possibles bag is canvas, about the 2/3 size of a pillow case, and ties shut at the top like any other bag. I put gun maintenence stuff, (lead, ladle, molds), fire starting stuff & extra tinder, a couple tools I need, and . . . other possbles in it. I have these things divided in a couple or three skin or canvas pouches just to keep every thing organized. I carry a strike-a-light, compass, and a tiny mirror (in case I get something in my eye and need to get it out), in my shooting bag which measures about 7 inches wide and 8 inches long. I carry these things in my shooting pouch just in case my pack horse runs off with all my regular stuff. Are there many period references to possibles bags? I remember seeing tanned skin pouches in museums called "possibles bags", with stripes of quill work and hair cones, about 20 inches square or so and of Indian manufacture, from about the end of the 19th century. These were collected as Indian artifacts. Though late, and not all
of them are, could they be any relation to what the mountaineers carried? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I suppose a possibles bag could be any bag that a man could carry things in. Cowboys carried "warbags", and Joe Back ( Horses Hitches & Rocky Trails) drew one from early 20th c. that looked like a small seabag or dufflebag. Could possibles bag include something that looked like those?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee </DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Welcome, I have enjoyed your inspiring artwork for quite some time. When i see the adds for your prints in the magazines i read. It takes me from the confines of modern life and allows me to gaze in to the past of the true mountaineers of the early 1800's and reflect on my own primitive adventures. I particularly enjoyed the one where the trapper is putting a buffalo robe on his horse. ya get a shiver just looking at it. Great work Lee keep em coming
Tom AMM#1834 Poison River Party
Thanks for the welcome. I have been getting ready to paint Mountain Men for about ten years. I have put a lot of time into research. Up until now I painted mostly easter frontier history. You can see more pictures, some of Mountain Men, at www.leeteter.com.
I met Wyn Ormand and a couple other guys from your party at Bridger. It was a great pleasure on my part.
I hope my art can portray the period properly. I'll sure try my best. It will be slow at first but I've decided to devote at least the next five years exclusively to the Mountain Men.
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Lee,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Welcome, I have enjoyed your inspiring artwork for quite some time. When i see the adds for your prints in the magazines i read. It takes me from the confines of modern life and allows me to gaze in to the past of the true mountaineers of the early 1800's and reflect on my own primitive adventures. I particularly enjoyed the one where the trapper is putting a buffalo robe on his horse. ya get a shiver just looking at it. Great work Lee keep em coming</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2> Tom AMM#1834 Poison River Party</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for the welcome. I have been getting ready to paint Mountain Men for about ten years. I have put a lot of time into research. Up until now I painted mostly easter frontier history. You can see more pictures, some of Mountain Men, at <A href="http://www.leeteter.com">www.leeteter.com</A>. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I met Wyn Ormand and a couple other guys from your party at Bridger. It was a great pleasure on my part.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I hope my art can portray the period properly. I'll sure try my best. It will be slow at first but I've decided to devote at least the next five years exclusively to the Mountain Men. </DIV>
Mountain Men have been accused of decimating the animal population in the West. There is no doubt they made a dent in the beaver population, but I am collecting information that will show they did NOT bring beaver to the point of extinction.
Trapping was continued, for beaver, well after the 1850's. Reports by late trapper/mountaineers indicate good catches.
The Canadians intended to make "a fur desert", and never got it done (though they did make catches so slim that it was unprofitable to trap certain areas).
Homesteaders trapped, as well as out-of-work-cowboys and others. I submit that homesteaders did much to eliminate the beaver in certain areas.
The uninformed are making assumptions, due primarily to the ignorant film industry and fictional writers, that mountain men trapped the beaver to extinction. Most of us on this site know better, but If anyone can provide tidbits of solid evidence to show otherwise, I'd like to add it to my collection. If anyone has been involved in beaver reintroduction programs, it would be interesting to record dates and areas with all possible information related to the causes and dates of depopulation in those areas.
. . . I found a dam at the head of drainages leading to the Powder River, at least thirty miles from flowing Powder River water of any size. The beaver had damed a spring that sank into the sand a hundred yards from the dam. An old cowboy told me riding up on a beaver ten miles away from any water source. It threatened him by running at his horse, which spooked at the attack. It must have been on its way to new territory. This event happened in the late fifties or early sixties.
Anyone have any ideas about what other types of information could support our understanding that mountain men did NOT trap beaver to extinction? I know it is obvious to us but others need data and references.
Thanks,
Lee Teter
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<DIV>Mountain Men have been accused of decimating the animal population in the West. There is no doubt they made a dent in the beaver population, but I am collecting information that will show they did NOT bring beaver to the point of extinction. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Trapping was continued, for beaver, well after the 1850's. Reports by late trapper/mountaineers indicate good catches.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Canadians intended to make "a fur desert", and never got it done (though they did make catches so slim that it was unprofitable to trap certain areas).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Homesteaders trapped, as well as out-of-work-cowboys and others. I submit that homesteaders did much to eliminate the beaver in certain areas.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The uninformed are making assumptions, due primarily to the ignorant film industry and fictional writers, that mountain men trapped the beaver to extinction. Most of us on this site know better, but If anyone can provide tidbits of solid evidence to show otherwise, I'd like to add it to my collection. If anyone has been involved in beaver reintroduction programs, it would be interesting to record dates and areas with all possible information related to the causes and dates of depopulation in those areas.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>. . . I found a dam at the head of drainages leading to the Powder River, at least thirty miles from flowing Powder River water of any size. The beaver had damed a spring that sank into the sand a hundred yards from the dam. An old cowboy told me riding up on a beaver ten miles away from any water source. It threatened him by running at his horse, which spooked at the attack. It must have been on its way to new territory. This event happened in the late fifties or early sixties.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Anyone have any ideas about what other types of information could support our understanding that mountain men did NOT trap beaver to extinction? I know it is obvious to us but others need data and references.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee Teter</DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Have just joined this list that I have heard about for many years. I am trying to reach a family member that is or was on this list from old emails from my father (Lee "Turtle" Boyer) and his friend (Dan "Concho" Smith), now both passed on to the other side. The family member is Barry "Buck" Conner, who I believe is also a member of the American Mountain Men Association. Any help would be wonderful.
Thank you.
Nathan Boyer
larpenteaur@yahoo.com
SWcushing@aol.com wrote:Anyone know what weekend the "Rain-de-vous" is gonna be? Seems to me it's held in February.
Thanks,
Magpie
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<DIV>Have just joined this list that I have heard about for many years. I am trying to reach a family member that is or was on this list from old emails from my father (Lee "Turtle" Boyer) and his friend (Dan "Concho" Smith), now both passed on to the other side. The family member is Barry "Buck" Conner, who I believe is also a member of the American Mountain Men Association. Any help would be wonderful.</DIV>
I'll post your email request on the AMM members only list. I believe Buck is still subscribed.
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 9:31 AM
Magpie,
Have just joined this list that I have heard about for many years. I am trying to reach a family member that is or was on this list from old emails from my father (Lee "Turtle" Boyer) and his friend (Dan "Concho" Smith), now both passed on to the other side. The family member is Barry "Buck" Conner, who I believe is also a member of the American Mountain Men Association. Any help would be wonderful.
Thank you.
Nathan Boyer
larpenteaur@yahoo.com
SWcushing@aol.com wrote: Anyone know what weekend the "Rain-de-vous" is gonna be? Seems to me it's held in February.
Thanks,
Magpie
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<DIV>Thank you.<BR><BR><B><I>roger lahti <amm1719@charter.net></I></B> wrote:
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2>Nathan,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2>I'll post your email request on the AMM members only list. I believe Buck is still subscribed. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2>YMOS<BR>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Have just joined this list that I have heard about for many years. I am trying to reach a family member that is or was on this list from old emails from my father (Lee "Turtle" Boyer) and his friend (Dan "Concho" Smith), now both passed on to the other side. The family member is Barry "Buck" Conner, who I believe is also a member of the American Mountain Men Association. Any help would be wonderful.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Anyone know what weekend the "Rain-de-vous" is gonna be? Seems to me it's held in February.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>Magpie</FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT>
<P>
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O.K. I know I post a lot of questions but then, I know I need a lot of answers. I've been shooting my Patterson and the caps blow apart and tangle the cylinder. Are there any caps made that won't do that? I think it is because they are made too light weight (like aluminum foil weight). There are little bands that go around caps to keep them from blowing apart but I don't want to use them. Any ideas?
Lee
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<P>O.K. I know I post a lot of questions but then, I know I need a lot of answers. I've been shooting my Patterson and the caps blow apart and tangle the cylinder. Are there any caps made that won't do that? I think it is because they are made too light weight (like aluminum foil weight). There are little bands that go around caps to keep them from blowing apart but I don't want to use them. Any ideas?</P>
That's interesting Magpie, I'll have to ask about this. I'm not the ex-girlfriend just the younger cousin, but have know several of his former ladies over the years when still in PA. (maybe that's why he left in such a hurray??).
Thanks
Nate.
Howdy Nathan,
I forwarded your note to Buck, so you should hear from him soon. I'm a little reluctant to give out his email address because you may be that x-girlfriend he keeps talking about...<G>
Magpie
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<P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">That's interesting Magpie, I'll have to ask about this. I'm not the ex-girlfriend just the younger cousin, but have know several of his former ladies over the years when still in PA. (maybe that's why he left in such a hurray??).</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Howdy Nathan,<BR><BR>I forwarded your note to Buck, so you should hear from him soon. I'm a little reluctant to give out his email address because you may be that x-girlfriend he keeps talking about...<G><BR><BR>Magpie</FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT> </FONT><FONT face=arial,helvetica></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Dale Nelson <dnelson@wizzards.net> wrote:Welcome to the world of shooting early colt pistols. Dale Nelson
_________________________________
Yeah, it's great! I received answers online and off that really helped. Remington caps do work better. The type I was using were too "hot". Remembering to dump the cap out will take some practice; I forget every now and then, but I'm working on it.
Interesting thing about reenacting or using old technology is how it relates to understanding the past, and understanding people's reactions to certain historical situations. If historical people had to deal with problems in technology, I want to know what those problems were. Once I'm certain modern technology isn't introducing problems that did not exist in the past, I'll stick with it till something works; most likely it will involve the same remedy they employed.
Not only do I learn about the past as I build and use historic gear, I also feel a sense of accomplishment I can't get by going to the sporting goods dept. and buying enough plastic gear to go camping for a weekend. I have a great respect for reenactors who go 100% with old technology. It takes a lot of effort but it has its rewards. Thanks for all the input everyone.
Lee Teter
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Dale Nelson <dnelson@wizzards.net></I></B> wrote:
<P>Yeah, it's great! I received answers online and off that really helped. Remington caps do work better. The type I was using were too "hot". Remembering to dump the cap out will take some practice; I forget every now and then, but I'm working on it.</P>
<P>Interesting thing about reenacting or using old technology is how it relates to understanding the past, and understanding people's reactions to certain historical situations. If historical people had to deal with problems in technology, I want to know what those problems were. Once I'm certain modern technology isn't introducing problems that did not exist in the past, I'll stick with it till something works; most likely it will involve the same remedy they employed. </P>
<P>Not only do I learn about the past as I build and use historic gear, I also feel a sense of accomplishment I can't get by going to the sporting goods dept. and buying enough plastic gear to go camping for a weekend. I have a great respect for reenactors who go 100% with old technology. It takes a lot of effort but it has its rewards. Thanks for all the input everyone.</P>
When I was growing up my Uncle and his son (my cousin) would take me out to shoot cap & ball guns every Sat. morning weather permitting. This was in the early 60's, powder was hard to find and everything they used was original, guns, molds, and a devise that made caps. Now that was a 'iffy' situation for having ignition in those days. By the mid 60's Turner Kirkland would make runs to two or three places in PA in a year and have powder, caps, cast balls, this made shooting much easier.
With this in mind think what our fore fathers went thought to shoot there guns?
Nate.
_________________________________
Yeah, it's great! I received answers on-line and off that really helped. Remington caps do work better. The type I was using were too "hot". Remembering to dump the cap out will take some practice; I forget every now and then, but I'm working on it.
Interesting thing about reenacting or using old technology is how it relates to understanding the past, and understanding people's reactions to certain historical situations. If historical people had to deal with problems in technology, I want to know what those problems were. Once I'm certain modern technology isn't introducing problems that did not exist in the past, I'll stick with it till something works; most likely it will involve the same remedy they employed.
Not only do I learn about the past as I build and use historic gear, I also feel a sense of accomplishment I can't get by going to the sporting goods dept. and buying enough plastic gear to go camping for a weekend. I have a great respect for reenactors who go 100% with old technology. It takes a lot of effort but it has its rewards. Thanks for all the input everyone.
Lee Teter
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<DIV>When I was growing up my Uncle and his son (my cousin) would take me out to shoot cap & ball guns every Sat. morning weather permitting. This was in the early 60's, powder was hard to find and everything they used was original, guns, molds, and a devise that made caps. Now that was a 'iffy' situation for having ignition in those days. By the mid 60's Turner Kirkland would make runs to two or three places in PA in a year and have powder, caps, cast balls, this made shooting much easier.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>With this in mind think what our fore fathers went thought to shoot there guns?</DIV>
<P>Yeah, it's great! I received answers on-line and off that really helped. Remington caps do work better. The type I was using were too "hot". Remembering to dump the cap out will take some practice; I forget every now and then, but I'm working on it.</P>
<P>Interesting thing about reenacting or using old technology is how it relates to understanding the past, and understanding people's reactions to certain historical situations. If historical people had to deal with problems in technology, I want to know what those problems were. Once I'm certain modern technology isn't introducing problems that did not exist in the past, I'll stick with it till something works; most likely it will involve the same remedy they employed. </P>
<P>Not only do I learn about the past as I build and use historic gear, I also feel a sense of accomplishment I can't get by going to the sporting goods dept. and buying enough plastic gear to go camping for a weekend. I have a great respect for reenactors who go 100% with old technology. It takes a lot of effort but it has its rewards. Thanks for all the input everyone.</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">> --- roger lahti <AMM1719@CHARTER.NET>wrote:<BR>> > Lee,<BR>> ><BR>> > I'd almost venture to guess your nipples are burned<BR>> > out some degree. .<BR>> ><BR>> > Capt. Lahti'<BR><BR><BR>Am I the only one who wants to say something inapropriate for mixed company<BR>to that statement?<BR>Wynn<BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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One particular fact I find interesting from Claytons paper is
that during the "mountain man era" 3,000 packs of beaver were sent down
the Missouri River annually, while during 1879-1888, 19,000 packs
annually found their way to St. Louis."
That is good stuff!. That would mean there were a lot of trappers haunting the beaver streams as late as 1888. Were the Indians trapping that many beaver?The buffalo were about to go under. Hmmm.
Well, it does mean for certain that beaver were not nearly tapped out, at least in the Montana region.
I'll see if I can get my hands on a copy of that report. If not I'll give a holler and get you to send a copy. I think I can find one though. Thanks.
Lee Teter
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Todd D Glover <tetontodd@juno.com></I></B> wrote:
<P><BR>One particular fact I find interesting from Claytons paper is<BR>that during the "mountain man era" 3,000 packs of beaver were sent down<BR>the Missouri River annually, while during 1879-1888, 19,000 packs<BR>annually found their way to St. Louis."</P>
<P> </P>
<P>That is good stuff!. That would mean there were a lot of trappers haunting the beaver streams as late as 1888. Were the Indians trapping that many beaver?The buffalo were about to go under. Hmmm. </P>
<P>Well, it does mean for certain that beaver were not nearly tapped out, at least in the Montana region. </P>
<P>I'll see if I can get my hands on a copy of that report. If not I'll give a holler and get you to send a copy. I think I can find one though. Thanks.</P>
Wynn Ormond <cheyenne@pcu.net> wrote: It would be more interesting to ask for comments from men who had been involved in depredation trapping of beaver. In other words, in area were civilization has proven that mountain men would be able to trap with more ease than the high country, there remains such a population that the government supports their continued harvesting.
Wyn, you are right.
I sure never thought of that. There are probably official records somewhere that are related to depredation trapping of beaver. If I can get records from before 1900 that will prevent skeptics from saying "there are plenty of beaver NOW, it took that long for them to re-populate the areas".
I don't think beaver reintroduction was that common in the West. I'll be contacting Wyoming Game and Fish to see what records they have regarding depredation complaints. I suppose I may as well contact the U.S. Forest Service about their records on reintroduction of beaver.
Thanks
Lee Teter
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> It would be more interesting to ask for comments from men who had been involved in depredation trapping of beaver. In other words, in area were civilization has proven that mountain men would be able to trap with more ease than the high country, there remains such a population that the government supports their continued harvesting.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Wyn, you are right. </DIV>
<DIV>I sure never thought of that. There are probably official records somewhere that are related to depredation trapping of beaver. If I can get records from before 1900 that will prevent skeptics from saying "there are plenty of beaver NOW, it took that long for them to re-populate the areas".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't think beaver reintroduction was that common in the West. I'll be contacting Wyoming Game and Fish to see what records they have regarding depredation complaints. I suppose I may as well contact the U.S. Forest Service about their records on reintroduction of beaver.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee Teter </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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I live in Southern California and have experimented with a number of different types of tinder. My favorite listed in order of effectiveness (how fast and easy it is to make fire from char cloth) are: the fibers from the dry leaves of the yucca plant, fibers from the bark of the incense cedar tree and dry grasses. I have used mugwort too. It works but I find that you really need to coax the flame out of this tinder.
Look forward to hearing others experiences.
Lou
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Is any one aware of the details referred to in an ad on the back cover of the latest Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. It offers reproductions of lead bars found along with the remains of a trapper found in 1932 on a creek in the Wasatch Mountains of Utah? Found with the remains were a plains rifle, some clothing, a bullet mold and ladle, four lead bars and a Bible.
Mark Roadkill Loader #1849
Jim Hanson told me about that trapper when I visited to study the original lead bars. He said the trapper must have built a fire under an overhang that fell in on him (when it thawed?). I'm not sure but I think there may have been some traps with the remains. The Fur Trade Quarterly mentions the remains in an article about bar lead, but doesn't give much more detail than you mentioned in your post. The lead bars they sell are very close to the originals. The originals are appr. 10 5/8 inches long, 1/2 inch wide on the bottom, 3/8 across the top, and 1/4 inch high. The reproductions are a fraction smaller so they can't be pawned off as originals. They say "St. Louis Bar Lead" and are supposed to date from the 1820's. Of course they appeared years after too. There are more lead bars just like the MFT bars in a little museum in Taos, across the street from Kit Carson House. Must have been fairly common.
Lee Teter
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<DIV>Is any one aware of the details referred to in an ad on the back cover of the latest Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. It offers reproductions of lead bars found along with the remains of a trapper found in 1932 on a creek in the Wasatch Mountains of Utah? Found with the remains were a plains rifle, some clothing, a bullet mold and ladle, four lead bars and a Bible. </DIV>
<DIV>Mark Roadkill Loader #1849</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim Hanson told me about that trapper when I visited to study the original lead bars. He said the trapper must have built a fire under an overhang that fell in on him (when it thawed?). I'm not sure but I think there may have been some traps with the remains. The Fur Trade Quarterly mentions the remains in an article about bar lead, but doesn't give much more detail than you mentioned in your post. The lead bars they sell are very close to the originals. The originals are appr. 10 5/8 inches long, 1/2 inch wide on the bottom, 3/8 across the top, and 1/4 inch high. The reproductions are a <U>fraction</U> smaller so they can't be pawned off as originals. They say "St. Louis Bar Lead" and are supposed to date from the 1820's. Of course they appeared years after too. There are more lead bars just like the MFT bars in a little museum in Taos, across the street from Kit Carson House. Must have been fairly common. </DIV>
James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net> wrote:
Whoa!
I like the comparison between the Mtn. man era and the 1879-1888 period. But they might not be apples-to-apples comparisons. . . .
. . . In short, there are too many variables for this to be a meaningful statistics to hold up under scrutiny unless more information is added.
_________________________________________________________________ Sure thing. Good information takes a long time to sift, and all this information will be carefully sifted. The ideas for directions of research here on this site are good though, and the information that surfaces comes from places I may have missed. I'm glad to get all I can. James and Sue, your post will be included in my files to remind me to check the angles you mention. I try to be very careful.
All information is a place to start a study. Once information is sifted and studied it will be catagorized and catalogued. The collection of information can take years. It goes faster with a help like I recieved here. After that, a year or two will be allowed for things to settle out and exhaust present sources. Several months will then be used to compile the information and conclusions so they are presented in a way that will accurately reflect the evidence rather than some political point.
The Truth represents the only real things in the world; everything else is a lie. Lies are the author of confusion. I'm tired of unreal things. I will be careful.
Lee Teter
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net></I></B> wrote:
<P>Whoa!<BR>I like the comparison between the Mtn. man era and the 1879-1888 period. But they might not be apples-to-apples comparisons. . . . <BR><BR>. . . In short, there are too many variables for this to be a meaningful statistics to hold up under scrutiny unless more information is added.</P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<P>_________________________________________________________________ Sure thing. Good information takes a long time to sift, and all this information will be carefully sifted. The ideas for directions of research here on this site are good though, and the information that surfaces comes from places I may have missed. I'm glad to get all I can. James and Sue, your post will be included in my files to remind me to check the angles you mention. I try to be very careful.</P>
<P> All information is a place to <U>start</U> a study. Once information is sifted and studied it will be catagorized and catalogued. The collection of information can take years. It goes faster with a help like I recieved here. After that, a year or two will be allowed for things to settle out and exhaust present sources. Several months will then be used to compile the information and conclusions so they are presented in a way that will accurately reflect the evidence rather than some political point. </P>
<P>The Truth represents the only real things in the world; everything else is a lie. Lies are the author of confusion. I'm tired of unreal things. I will be careful. </P>
<pre wrap=""> Being Beaverboy I guess I should say something about beaver. I've trapped
trouble beaver for over 20 years and it is very easy to kill all the
beaver in an area. They are not the smartest animal. What deters most
people from trapping them is the amount of work involved in carrying and
skinning them.
Generally I have found it takes at least two years for other beaver to
move into a trapped out area. That is if there are any other beaver in
neighboring water. As I tend to skip sections of river that I trap I
never trap them all.
One colony of beaver if not preyed upon can reproduce to 608 beaver in
a ten year period. Four kits a year is not a bad ratio for rebounding.
I have caught 10 beaver out of one den several times but most are two
adults and four kits. Thank goodness beaver are hardy and like to
reproduce.
What almost wiped out the beaver was hunting and trapping them during
the open water months and when they were pregnant or nursing. Some
people on this list actually believed the MM didn't trap in the summer
when actually they were done with the bulk of their trapping before
,for instance, the present day Montana trapping season evens opens
(November 1st)
In the early 1980's when fur was still worth something I had a hard
time getting permission to trap beaver near town. Beaver weren't nearly
as thick due to a lot of pressure and landowners enjoyed seeing them.
Now with prices barely covering expenses the population is booming and
everyone wants me to trap them.
I wrote on the list once of journal accounts of trappers "working a
stream until clean" and of Osborne Russell commencing his fall hunt in
I think it was July! One of his journal entries talked of him taking a
long bath after checking his traps! I think it was July or August.
bb
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Wynn Ormond <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cheyenne@pcu.net"><cheyenne@pcu.net></a> wrote: It would be more interesting to ask
for comments from men who had been involved in depredation trapping of
beaver. In other words, in area were civilization has proven that
mountain men would be able to trap with more ease than the high country,
there remains such a population that the government supports their
continued harvesting.
Wyn, you are right.
I sure never thought of that. There are probably official records
somewhere that are related to depredation trapping of beaver. If I can get
records from before 1900 that will prevent skeptics from saying "there are
plenty of beaver NOW, it took that long for them to re-populate the
areas".
I don't think beaver reintroduction was that common in the West. I'll be
contacting Wyoming Game and Fish to see what records they have regarding
depredation complaints. I suppose I may as well contact the U.S. Forest
Service about their records on reintroduction of beaver.
Thanks
Lee Teter
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
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Frank, With a shoe string, or constructing natural cordage, I'd have made a bow drill. If cane, etc... was available a blow tube would be a plus. Was anyone wearing glasses? a lens is a good source of fire. Yfab, Randy
----- Original Message -----
If there are any others on this list that have been watching the new TV 'Survivors' series you would have seen them struggling unsuccessfully trying to start a fire.
The group is on a tropical island and their only equipment is one machete. No flint and steel. Nothing. Most of them have tried starting by friction rubbing. They got a little smoke but no real hot coals. I don't recall that any tried a bow with a string.
I'm not sure what I would do. There is bamboo, so a fire tube with compression might be worth a try. I don't think there was any flint available on the islands.
Interesting hearing what others would do under those conditions.
Frank
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<DIV>Frank, With a shoe string, or constructing natural cordage, I'd have made a bow drill. If cane, etc... was available a blow tube would be a plus. Was anyone wearing glasses? a lens is a good source of fire. Yfab, Randy</DIV>
<DIV> If there are any others on this list that have been watching the new TV 'Survivors' series you would have seen them struggling unsuccessfully trying to start a fire.</DIV>
<DIV> The group is on a tropical island and their only equipment is one machete. No flint and steel. Nothing. Most of them have tried starting by friction rubbing. They got a little smoke but no real hot coals. I don't recall that any tried a bow with a string.</DIV>
<DIV> I'm not sure what I would do. There is bamboo, so a fire tube with compression might be worth a try. I don't think there was any flint available on the islands.</DIV>
<DIV> Interesting hearing what others would do under those conditions.</DIV>
I don't wear glasses, but carry a lens....it looks fuzzy through it to me...<g>...... Randy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/8/04 8:10:07 PM
Unless I am doing something wrong, starting fires with eyeglasses only works for those with "cheaters" and far sighted people. Us near-sighted folks can't, unless I did it wrong. When I tried, the lens Spread the light, rather than gathered it.
Sparks
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=jandsstone@earthlink.net href="mailto:jandsstone@earthlink.net">James and Sue Stone</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: fire starting</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>Unless I am doing something wrong, starting fires with eyeglasses only works for those with "cheaters" and far sighted people. Us near-sighted folks can't, unless I did it wrong. When I tried, the lens Spread the light, rather than gathered it.<BR>Sparks<BR><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Mr. Hanson of 'The Museum of the Fur Trade' sold several original molds years ago to my cousin. He cast and sold lead bars for several years out of those molds when running a period food business. Afraid with the amount of casting being done may crack or destroy the original molds, new copies were made. I believe the gentleman that runs Blue Heron Mercantile now has the copy molds and sells lead bars from them. Don't know if my cousin still has the originals or not, he had mentioned possibly loaning them to the AMM Museum project?
Nate.
SWzypher@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 02/08/2004 6:37:09 PM Mountain Standard Time, MarkLoader@aol.com writes:
I was hoping someone in Utah would have more information on the find. Was there more items? Is it in a museum? Any one live near the Wasatch Mountains of Utah?
They are less than 3 miles from where I live, but - they found the bar in 1932, a year before I was born. Charlie Hansen had it in the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, Nebraska when I saw it years ago. Jim Hansen drew a nice picture of it in one of his first two Mountain Man Sketchbooks but didn't give the dimensions that were furnished in another posting on the subject. Jim or someone at the museum may be able to check the archives for other items (there were several) and the approximate location. Find out and I will go take a picture for you of the spot (though it may be covered with condos by now. Wasaatch Range is the backdrop for Salt Lake City.)
Dick James
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<DIV>Mr. Hanson of 'The Museum of the Fur Trade' sold several original molds years ago to my cousin. He cast and sold lead bars for several years out of those molds when running a period food business. Afraid with the amount of casting being done may crack or destroy the original molds, new copies were made. I believe the gentleman that runs Blue Heron Mercantile now has the copy molds and sells lead bars from them. Don't know if my cousin still has the originals or not, he had mentioned possibly loaning them to the AMM Museum project?</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face="Times New Roman" size=3 FAMILY="SERIF" PTSIZE="12"><B>In a message dated 02/08/2004 6:37:09 PM Mountain Standard Time, MarkLoader@aol.com writes:<BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10" BACK="#ffffff"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" TYPE="CITE">I was hoping someone in Utah would have more information on the find. Was there more items? Is it in a museum? Any one live near the Wasatch Mountains of Utah? <BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=arial color=#000000 size=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="12" BACK="#ffffff"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3 FAMILY="SERIF" PTSIZE="12" BACK="#ffffff"><B><BR>They are less than 3 miles from where I live, but - they found the bar in 1932, a year before I was born. Charlie Hansen had it in the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, Nebraska when I saw it years ago. Jim Hansen drew a nice picture of it in one of his first two <I>Mountain Man Sketchbooks </I>but didn't give the dimensions that were furnished in another posting on the subject. Jim or someone at
the museum may be able to check the archives for other items (there were several) and the approximate location. Find out and I will go take a picture for you of the spot (though it may be covered with condos by now. Wasaatch Range is the backdrop for Salt Lake City.)<BR>Dick James</B></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><p><hr SIZE=1>
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I found this at: http://sittingfoxagency.tripod.com/success/part10.html for an example of a later period of the trade of furs. Nate
_______________________________________
Trade of Furs
AN EXAMPLE OF HOW LATE THE TRADE WAS STILL GOING ON.
We always think of St. Louis as being the hub of the fur trade, but there were other locations that did quite well. For example: St. Paul , Minnesota took its fair share of the business. Below is a list seen in the St. Paul Advertiser, a local newspaper.
Animals # Skins Value
Rats 64,292 11,572.56
Minks 8,276 18,621.00
Martens 1,428 3,570.00
Fishers 1,045 4,702.50
Red Fox 876 1,095.00
Cross Fox 20 100.00
Silver Fox 8 400.00
Kit Fox 2,542 1,271.00
Coons 3,400 2,550.00
Wolverines 2,032 3,048.00
Otter 405 1,417.50
Beaver, lb.. 586 881.00
Bear 610 6,700.00
Lynx 50 125.00
Buffalo Robes 7,500 41,200.00
Total Value 93,070 $ 97,253.56
Now would you believe this was a poor year according to the Advertiser in 1856? A large amount of these furs were traded for in merchandise. The fur trade as we know it, was over, but trade in guns, blanket's, cookware and anything else was still moving across this country.
Think of the amount of furs gathered in the hay day of the fur trade 1820's to 1840's. Look for example at Ft. Union , a prime location and the amount of money that John Jacob Astor made is unbelievable, even by today's standards.
_________________________________________________
Wolverine <wolverine1@aaahawk.com> wrote:
In the time line mentioned, MN was a major producer of
furs,as well as WI... lesser was IL/Iowa/
Records of the St Louis Fur Co { at the foot of the Lacleads Landing are archived in the St Louis history center.
It should be noted that the St louis Fur Co still stands vacant
its towards the Union Power station, that was erected for the 1904 fair.
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 6pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-layout-grid-align: none" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Copperplate Gothic Light'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'"><FONT face="times new roman" size=2><STRONG>I found this at: </STRONG></FONT><A href="http://sittingfoxagency.tripod.com/success/part10.html"><FONT face="times new roman" size=2><STRONG>http://sittingfoxagency.tripod.com/success/part10.html</STRONG></FONT></A><STRONG><FONT face="times new roman" size=2> for an example of a later period of the trade of furs. </FONT></STRONG></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Copperplate Gothic Light'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'"><STRONG><FONT face="times new roman" size=2>Nate</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-layout-grid-align: none" align=center><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Copperplate Gothic Light'">AN EXAMPLE OF HOW LATE THE TRADE WAS STILL GOING ON.</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-layout-grid-align: none" align=left><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">We always think of </SPAN><?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:CITY><ST1:PLACE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">St. Louis</SPAN></ST1:PLACE> </ST1:CITY><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">as being the hub of the fur trade, but there were other locations that did quite well. For example: </SPAN><ST1:PLACE><ST1:CITY><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">St. Paul</SPAN></ST1:CITY> <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">, </SPAN><ST1:STATE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">Minnesota</SPAN></ST1:STATE> </ST1:PLACE><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">took its fair share of the business. Below is a list seen in the <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">St. Paul Advertiser</I>, a local newspaper.<O:P> </O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-layout-grid-align: none" align=left><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">Now would you believe this was a poor year according to the Advertiser in 1856? A large amount of these furs were traded for in merchandise. The fur trade as we know it, was over, but trade in guns, blanket's, cookware and anything else was still moving across this country.<O:P> </O:P></SPAN>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-layout-grid-align: none" align=left><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">Think of the amount of furs gathered in the hay day of the fur trade 1820's to 1840's. Look for example at </SPAN><ST1:PLACE><ST1:PLACETYPE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">Ft.</SPAN></ST1:PLACETYPE> <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'"></SPAN><ST1:PLACENAME><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">Union</SPAN></ST1:PLACENAME> </ST1:PLACE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Narrow'">, a prime location and the amount of money that John Jacob Astor made is unbelievable, even by today's standards.</SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">In the time line mentioned, MN was a major producer of<BR>furs,as well as WI... lesser was IL/Iowa/<BR>Records of the St Louis Fur Co { at the foot of the Lacleads Landing are archived in the St Louis history center.<BR>It should be noted that the St louis Fur Co still stands vacant<BR>its towards the Union Power station, that was erected for the 1904 fair.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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I just recieved my "Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" and thought I should mention a few things about the bar lead since I already posted some information before I saw the ad.
The ad in the quarterly says the bars weigh just over a pound, but they weigh only 8 ounces or a half pound. They might vary a little depending on how much lead is poured into the mold, but not very much.
The ad also says the ST.LOUIS BAR LEAD version is of a later, buffalo hunter, period, but I thought it was earlier than the ST. LOUIS SHOT TOWER CO. version.
In the museum the tag on display with the bar lead reads:
"Top four lead bars marked 'ST. LOUIS SHOT TOWER CO'. Found with skeleton of trapper in Wasatch Mountains. Bottom bar is earlier type marked 'ST. LOUIS BAR LEAD'. Found near Blacks Fork in Wyoming."
I'm sure James Hanson will get to the bottom of this, but if you want the earlier lead, I think it is the ST. LOUIS BAR LEAD, according to the tag on display, (and get two of them if you want a pound of lead). All money goes to the museum.
Lee Teter
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<DIV>I just recieved my "Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" and thought I should mention a few things about the bar lead since I already posted some information before I saw the ad. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The ad in the quarterly says the bars weigh just over a pound, but they weigh only 8 ounces or a half pound. They might vary a little depending on how much lead is poured into the mold, but not very much. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The ad also says the ST.LOUIS BAR LEAD version is of a later, buffalo hunter, period, but I thought it was earlier than the ST. LOUIS SHOT TOWER CO. version. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In the museum the tag on display with the bar lead reads: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><U>"Top four lead bars marked 'ST. LOUIS SHOT TOWER CO'. Found with skeleton of trapper in Wasatch Mountains. Bottom bar is earlier type marked 'ST. LOUIS BAR LEAD'. Found near Blacks Fork in Wyoming."</U></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm sure James Hanson will get to the bottom of this, but if you want the earlier lead, I think it is the ST. LOUIS BAR LEAD, according to the tag on display, (and get two of them if you want a pound of lead). All money goes to the museum.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee Teter </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><p>
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Hi..Just found your site and am very impressed....don't think that I can
become a mountain man...but enjoy learning the ways....I have medical
problems....which limit my activities....
But I do some blacksmithing and have a percussion cap
muzzleloader....would like to go to a rendezous and see how things work,
but live in West Virginia and not sure of how to find out about things
like that or even if they have them back east....I know that all the
rendezous during the fur trapping era were in the west.....So if no
problem,enjoy reading about mountain men on this list.....thanks Mike
Mike,
Some of the biggest rendezvous in the U.S. are in the east. Contact Jason Gatliff at "On The Trail Magazine" ( editor@ottmagazine.com) and he can put you in contact with someone in your area.
At an eastern rendezvous you will see people interested in every period, from the French & Indian War (George Washington set up a line of forts in West Virginia during that period) to the Rocky Mountain trappers. A good blacksmith is always welcome at rendezvous.
If you like this site, you will love Jason's magazine. You might as well get a subscription while you're at it.
All my best,
Lee Teter
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<P>Hi..Just found your site and am very impressed....don't think that I can<BR>become a mountain man...but enjoy learning the ways....I have medical<BR>problems....which limit my activities....<BR>But I do some blacksmithing and have a percussion cap<BR>muzzleloader....would like to go to a rendezous and see how things work,<BR>but live in West Virginia and not sure of how to find out about things<BR>like that or even if they have them back east....I know that all the<BR>rendezous during the fur trapping era were in the west.....So if no<BR>problem,enjoy reading about mountain men on this list.....thanks Mike</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Mike,</P>
<P>Some of the biggest rendezvous in the U.S. are in the east. Contact Jason Gatliff at "On The Trail Magazine" ( <A href="mailto:editor@ottmagazine.com">editor@ottmagazine.com</A>) and he can put you in contact with someone in your area. </P>
<P>At an eastern rendezvous you will see people interested in every period, from the French & Indian War (George Washington set up a line of forts in West Virginia during that period) to the Rocky Mountain trappers. A good blacksmith is always welcome at rendezvous.</P>
<P>If you like this site, you will love Jason's magazine. You might as well get a subscription while you're at it.</P>
<P>All my best,</P>
<P>Lee Teter <BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Hi Lee, I've noticed things quiet down during weekends. I've speculated a cross between some on work computers and folks getting out on the ground during weekends? The AMM western territorial was held last week in Texas, put on by the TX/OK brigade. Six of us Californians traveled over for it, and we were not disappointed. Those TX/OK brothers sure treated us good. The doin's was on a brother's Ranch about an hour outside San Antonio. A group of about 30 of us went to the Alamo on 2-5, in our skins, etc... that was fun. I'm still playing catch up from my over a week away from home. I'll bet there will be a good article coming up in the T & LR. I hope to share a camp fire with you in the future. Yfab, hardtack
----- Original Message -----
February 15, 2004
Hello. I haven't heard anything for about three days, I'm wondering if I'm still hooked in. Our sever was down for about 24 hours.
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Hi Lee, I've noticed things quiet down during weekends. I've speculated a cross between some on work computers and folks getting out on the ground during weekends? The AMM western territorial was held last week in Texas, put on by the TX/OK brigade. Six of us Californians traveled over for it, and we were not disappointed. Those TX/OK brothers sure treated us good. The doin's was on a brother's Ranch about an hour outside San Antonio. A group of about 30 of us went to the Alamo on 2-5, in our skins, etc... that was fun. I'm still playing catch up from my over a week away from home. I'll bet there will be a good article coming up in the T & LR. I hope to share a camp fire with you in the future. Yfab, hardtack</FONT></DIV>
Subject: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
Date: 15 Feb 2004 19:12:49 -0800 (PST)
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Well, since no one is writing much I'd like to know if anyone else out there has read a book called Destruction of the Buffalo by Andrew Isenburg.
I did a paper on the subject a few years before the book came out in 2000 and was surprised to see a book by a modern University that seemed to agree with my findings. Isenburg is a Princeton U. History professor and made revelations that should have had the book on shelves everywhere, but I don't see it around much.
The book provides information about the fictional and overestimated 72 million buffalo ( when the environment would only support 20 to 30 million or even less), the killing of the reproduction base (cows) for robes, the Indian waste of millions of animals for robes and tongues alone, the Indian driven market (rather than just the "euroamerican" evil of free enterprise ), and much other insight not seen in the books usually found at book stores (and I have never seen one at any U.S. Park Service historic site I've visited.)
My own little paper, a paltry thing compared to this book, was put together to accompany some of my art and was slowly built on evidence I found after seeing references by trappers who were commenting on the decline of the bison as early as the 1830's. It is very good, very scholarly, yet easy to read. It must be read slow though, because every sentence is important, and many of the references are some of those hidden jewels I had not heard of.
There is no doubt the hide hunters finished the buffalo, but it is abundently clear that, without a sudden change of lifestyle, the Indian would have killed them all anyway.
Anyone else out there read it?
Lee Teter
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<DIV>Well, since no one is writing much I'd like to know if anyone else out there has read a book called <U>Destruction of the Buffalo</U> by Andrew Isenburg. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I did a paper on the subject a few years before the book came out in 2000 and was surprised to see a book by a modern University that seemed to agree with my findings. Isenburg is a Princeton U. History professor and made revelations that should have had the book on shelves everywhere, but I don't see it around much.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The book provides information about the fictional and overestimated 72 million buffalo ( when the environment would only support 20 to 30 million or even less), the killing of the reproduction base (cows) for robes, the Indian waste of millions of animals for robes and tongues alone, the Indian driven market (rather than just the "euroamerican" evil of free enterprise ), and much other insight not seen in the books usually found at book stores (and I have never seen one at any U.S. Park Service historic site I've visited.) </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My own little paper, a paltry thing compared to this book, was put together to accompany some of my art and was slowly built on evidence I found after seeing references by trappers who were commenting on the decline of the bison as early as the 1830's. It is very good, very scholarly, yet easy to read. It must be read slow though, because every sentence is important, and many of the references are some of those hidden jewels I had not heard of.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There is no doubt the hide hunters finished the buffalo, but it is abundently clear that, without a sudden change of lifestyle, the Indian would have killed them all anyway. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Anyone else out there read it?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee Teter</DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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<DIV>. . . abundantly clear that, without a sudden change of lifestyle, the Indians would have killed the buffalo to the point of extinction.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think that states it a little better.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee</DIV>
<P>
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The kids will accept it pretty well, but the teachers might ask you to leave.
I loaned my copy out, or I'd post a few quotes. Anyone interested in early origins of plains tribes and the origins of the horse/buffalo culture will love it. Isenburg doesn't give the "euroamericans" (I hate that term) much slack either, so don't expect an anti Indian - pro white book. It is pretty honest.
The overview of the era is great. He keeps his focus on the buffalo and lets the human story follow the buffalo path to destruction, unlike books with a built in guilt trip or political agenda. He tries to make a point, of some kind, about the role of Indian women, but I never quite "get it" ( unless it is that the change in culture, due to the new plains lifestyle gave women less power to determine the state of their own society). I think you'll like it. I'd change a few words here and there ( genocide vocabulary seems to infltrate the wrap-up at the end of chapters, almost contrasting with the evidence and the previous wording), correct some infomation about firearms, add some information about the spread of disease, and things like that, but Isenburg does a good job.
Lee
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Todd D Glover <tetontodd@juno.com></I></B> wrote:
<P>The kids will accept it pretty well, but the teachers might ask you to leave.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>I loaned my copy out, or I'd post a few quotes. Anyone interested in early origins of plains tribes and the origins of the horse/buffalo culture will love it. Isenburg doesn't give the "euroamericans" (I hate that term) much slack either, so don't expect an anti Indian - pro white book. It is pretty honest. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>The overview of the era is great. He keeps his focus on the buffalo and lets the human story follow the buffalo path to destruction, unlike books with a built in guilt trip or political agenda. He tries to make a point, of some kind, about the role of Indian women, but I never quite "get it" ( unless it is that the change in culture, due to the new plains lifestyle gave women less power to determine the state of their own society). I think you'll like it. I'd change a few words here and there ( genocide vocabulary seems to infltrate the wrap-up at the end of chapters, almost contrasting with the evidence and the previous wording), correct some infomation about firearms, add some information about the spread of disease, and things like that, but Isenburg does a good job.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Lee</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
Date: 15 Feb 2004 20:34:41 -0800 (PST)
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Ben <beb1@sisna.com> wrote:
Is this presented in such a way that a person without the training in ecology and population dynamics can still understand clearly how preposterous the ôaccepted wisdomö about the bison is?
IÆm probably not qualified to judge that because I have spent a career since 1953 working with the subject of wildlife population dynamics.
Tell me if this piques your interest.
A couple of references: Death on the Prairies by Paul I Wellman and
The Buffalo Book by David A Dary (avon Books 1974)The Time of The Buffalo, Tom McHugh. Alfred Knopf, 1972
Ben
Ben, Oh yes, I'm interested. I don't believe Isenburg covers your first point or even refers to it. 1/7th shrinks the herd quite a bit. He does address environment and disease, and he adds disease into the mix, but doesn't give it all the credit.
Marie Sandoz wrote that by 1860 ( I think that is the right date) only one of every ten animals was female. Indians killed females and very young bulls for the robes, bull hide was not desirable for robes. Not every robe represented the number of animals killed because others were required for food clothing and shelter. Spring hunts used up pregnant animals etc. That seems to be a big factor.
I look forward to pondering your post over the next week. It is too much to absorb quickly. I think maybe there were not nearly as many buffalo left for hide hunters to kill as previously thought.
Do you have more info like you posted?
Lee
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial>Is this presented in such a way that a person without the training in ecology and population dynamics can still understand clearly how preposterous the ôaccepted wisdomö about the bison is?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial size=2>IÆm probably not qualified to judge that because I have spent a career since 1953 working with the subject of wildlife population dynamics.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial size=2>A couple of references: <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Death on the Prairies by Paul I Wellman<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></I>and</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">The Buffalo Book by David A Dary</I> (avon Books 1974)<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">The Time of The Buffalo, </I>Tom McHugh. Alfred Knopf, 1972</FONT></FONT></P>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">Ben, Oh yes, I'm interested. I don't believe Isenburg covers your first point or even refers to it. 1/7th shrinks the herd quite a bit. He does address environment and disease, and he adds disease into the mix, but doesn't give it all the credit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">Marie Sandoz wrote that by 1860 ( I think that is the right date) only one of every ten animals was female. Indians killed females and very young bulls for the robes, bull hide was not desirable for robes. Not every robe represented the number of animals killed because others were required for food clothing and shelter. Spring hunts used up pregnant animals etc. That seems to be a big factor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">I look forward to pondering your post over the next week. It is too much to absorb quickly. I think maybe there were not nearly as many buffalo left for hide hunters to kill as previously thought.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">Do you have more info like you posted?</FONT></DIV>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
Date: 15 Feb 2004 20:42:47 -0800 (PST)
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SWcushing@aol.com wrote:
Hi Lee,
I'd like to read you paper, if it's available. I've read a handful of books on buffalo, ("The Time of the Buffalo" by Tom McHugh, "The Buffalo" by Francis Haines come to mind) but the one I enjoyed most was "The Buffalo Book" by David Dary. Lottsa great pictures, history, and information not found in the others.
Are you recommending the Destruction of the Buffalo by Andrew Isenburg?
Ymos,
Magpie
______________
Magpie,
Yes, I'd recommend reading it.
I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so. New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while. Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo.
Lee
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<P><BR>Hi Lee,<BR><BR>I'd like to read you paper, if it's available. I've read a handful of books on buffalo, ("The Time of the Buffalo" by Tom McHugh, "The Buffalo" by Francis Haines come to mind) but the one I enjoyed most was "The Buffalo Book" by David Dary. Lottsa great pictures, history, and information not found in the others.<BR><BR>Are you recommending the </FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><U>Destruction of the Buffalo</U></FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> by Andrew Isenburg?<BR><BR>Ymos,<BR>Magpie</FONT></P><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so. New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while. Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo.</FONT></FONT></P>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
Date: 16 Feb 2004 07:01:14 -0800 (PST)
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"John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com> wrote:Isenberg's conclusions are consistent with those of many other researchers over the last decade who haven't had the cojones to take on the politically-correct establishment as Isenberg has.
Have I just won another oak-leaf cluster for my Curmudgeon badge?
John
________________________________________
I think you may have won an oak-leaf cluster for the present, but future generations will take it away and use it to garnish the "head-in-the-sand" badge worn by those who don't have the nerve to put Isenburg's book out where it can be read. How can people do that to their own children? The evidence continues to line up with Isenburg's book. Of course, the "Dances With Wolves" version is very appealing.
Lee
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>"John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com></I></B> wrote:
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Isenberg's conclusions are consistent with those of many other researchers over the last decade who haven't had the cojones to take on the politically-correct establishment as Isenberg has. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Have I just won another oak-leaf cluster for my Curmudgeon badge?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>I think you may have won an oak-leaf cluster for the present, but future generations will take it away and use it to garnish the "head-in-the-sand" badge worn by those who don't have the nerve to put Isenburg's book out where it can be read. How can people do that to their own children? The evidence continues to line up with Isenburg's book. Of course, the "Dances With Wolves" version is very appealing. </DIV>
<DIV>Lee</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
Date: 16 Feb 2004 08:24:52 -0800 (PST)
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Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> wrote:
The native population did have a significant effect on the
population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers were
driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in
separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of the
missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also.
Just some thoughts,
Joe Brandl
________________
Joe,
The horse was the change that made Indian impact on buffalo most profound. The horse allowed tribes to make buffalo hunting, and living on the plains, a full time occupation. Millions of horses acquired by tribes, were kept with them on the plains in prime water and grass areas, using up resources buffalo needed. The pressure on the buffalo came from many directions.
Indian culture changed because of the horse (remember the Sioux and many other "plains tribes" were mostly woodland Indians before the horse). When the culture became so "buffalo focused" it left behind many saftey nets, such as their agriculture and ancient social saftey nets.
There is no doubt industrial North America finished off the buffalo efficiently. The point unnoticed for so long, has been that hunting practices by Native Americans were pushing the buffalo to extinction and would have, even if the hide hunters never came West. The robe trade was hard on females because their hide was best for robes. Males don't carry calves, so the reproduction base was greatly harmed. By the time the first buffalo was killed to make leather belting, the buffalo had declined to a point that inter-tribal war was a problem as tribes fought over the remaining herds.
Lee
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<P> The native population did have a significant effect on the<BR>population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers were<BR>driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in<BR>separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of the<BR>missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also.<BR><BR>Just some thoughts,<BR><BR>Joe Brandl<BR><BR>________________</P>
<P>Joe,</P>
<P>The horse was the change that made Indian impact on buffalo most profound. The horse allowed tribes to make buffalo hunting, and living on the plains, a full time occupation. Millions of horses acquired by tribes, were kept with them on the plains in prime water and grass areas, using up resources buffalo needed. The pressure on the buffalo came from many directions.</P>
<P>Indian culture changed because of the horse (remember the Sioux and many other "plains tribes" were mostly woodland Indians before the horse). When the culture became so "buffalo focused" it left behind many saftey nets, such as their agriculture and ancient social saftey nets. </P>
<P>There is no doubt industrial North America finished off the buffalo efficiently. The point unnoticed for so long, has been that hunting practices by Native Americans were pushing the buffalo to extinction and would have, even if the hide hunters never came West. The robe trade was hard on females because their hide was best for robes. Males don't carry calves, so the reproduction base was greatly harmed. By the time the first buffalo was killed to make leather belting, the buffalo had declined to a point that inter-tribal war was a problem as tribes fought over the remaining herds.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Lee</P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Subject: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo
Date: 16 Feb 2004 09:22:46 -0800 (PST)
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I copied my writing about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?
Lee Teter
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<DIV>I copied my writing about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee Teter</DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo
Date: 16 Feb 2004 12:51:59 -0800 (PST)
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Lee
Angela Gottfred opened a Yahoo Groups for this list and there is an area for posting files.
You will have to ask her how to get to it.
I forgot how I "enrolled", but it's there.
grn
A file we can open or not should be fine in 7 pages. You can also have someone with a web page provide a link to it.
Capt. L
----- Original Message -----
I copied my writing about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?
Lee Teter
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George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
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<DIV>Lee</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Angela Gottfred opened a Yahoo Groups for this list and there is an area for posting files.</DIV>
<DIV> You will have to ask her how to get to it.</DIV>
<DIV> I forgot how I "enrolled", but it's there.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2>A file we can open or not should be fine in 7 pages. You can also have someone with a web page provide a link to it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2>Capt. L</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I copied my writing about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee Teter</DIV>
<P>
<HR SIZE=1>
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Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????
Sorry
Nate.
James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in
1849. .
Sparks
beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:
>Dear List,
> On a less serious note.
> When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday
>use? Did the MM have and use them.
> I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?
> Does anyone know.
> bb
>
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<DIV>Hey Sparks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sorry</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nate.<BR><BR><B><I>James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in <BR>1849. . <BR>Sparks<BR><BR>beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:<BR><BR>>Dear List,<BR>> On a less serious note.<BR>> When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday<BR>>use? Did the MM have and use them.<BR>> I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?<BR>> Does anyone know.<BR>> bb<BR>><BR>>----------------------<BR>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</BLOCKQUOTE><p><hr SIZE=1>
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<DIV>Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sorry</DIV>
<DIV>grn</DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > <br>Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.<p><hr SIZE=1>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
Date: 17 Feb 2004 15:30:57 -0800 (PST)
--0-91299643-1077060657=:23442
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hey all,
I posted Lee's paper as it is right now on the MtMan Yahoo gruops.
grn
Lee wrote
I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so. New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while. Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo.
Lee
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George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com >
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<P> I posted Lee's paper as it is right now on the MtMan Yahoo gruops.</P>
<P>grn</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Lee wrote</P>
<P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so. New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while. Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo.</FONT></FONT></P>
Do you Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Finance: <A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</A></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > <br>Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.<p><hr SIZE=1>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
Date: 17 Feb 2004 17:04:39 -0800 (PST)
--0-2118227066-1077066279=:2687
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MtMan/
Hey folks I.m not sure how I got there, much less how to post a link.
Anegala Gottfred opened it sonetime back and gave instructions.
I sigened up then BUT sleep since then.
If this one wont work,( it may only work to get me there) I'm sure there is someone .some one on the list will "Noe"
I think it said there was 39 members.
It has space for pictures also.
grn
RP Lahti <amm1719@charter.net> wrote:
Could you post the link?
Hey all,
I posted Lee's paper as it is right now on the MtMan Yahoo gruops.
grn
Lee wrote
I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so. New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while. Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo.
Lee
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George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
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George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
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<P> I posted Lee's paper as it is right now on the MtMan Yahoo gruops.</P>
<P>grn</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Lee wrote</P>
<P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so. New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while. Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo.</FONT></FONT></P>
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<P>
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The title to Andrew Isenburg's book is "Destruction of the Bison", not buffalo. I am a prime example of why those otherwise honest oldtimers who remembered the past as best they could still need to be checked with other sources. Sorry, I remembered the title wrong. It's a wonder I remembered the author.
Lee Teter
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<DIV>Hello everyone,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The title to Andrew Isenburg's book is "Destruction of the <U>Bison</U>", not buffalo. I am a prime example of why those otherwise honest oldtimers who remembered the past as best they could still need to be checked with other sources. Sorry, I remembered the title wrong. It's a wonder I remembered the author.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lee Teter</DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Seemed like "a pointed reply" or was it just "a heads-up" Capt.
Nate.
RP Lahti <amm1719@charter.net> wrote:
I was just being "upfront" about it like I suspect Adam was. <G>
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 7:07 PM
Well, Capt'n
Now I know why you are an officer. It's that skill of yours that helps direct the rest of us hapless souls in a painless alternative that accomplishes the same goal (end?).
Sparks
RP Lahti wrote:
A hair pin?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 6:28 PM
Nate,
I don't know. But after giving it some thought and knowing what he would have to pin the leaf to, I suspect he did not use a safety pin.
Sparks
Nathan Boyer wrote:
Hey Sparks,
Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????
Sorry
Nate.
James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in
1849. .
Sparks
beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:
>Dear List,
> On a less serious note.
> When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday
>use? Did the MM have and use them.
> I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?
> Does anyone know.
> bb
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
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<DIV>Seemed like "a pointed reply" or was it just "a heads-up" Capt.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nate.<BR><BR><B><I>RP Lahti <amm1719@charter.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=jandsstone@earthlink.net href="mailto:jandsstone@earthlink.net">James and Sue Stone</A> </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Well, Capt'n<BR>Now I know why you are an officer. It's that skill of yours that helps direct the rest of us hapless souls in a painless alternative that accomplishes the same goal (end?).<BR>Sparks <BR><BR>RP Lahti wrote:<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Nate,<BR>I don't know. But after giving it some thought and knowing what he would have to pin the leaf to, I suspect he did not use a safety pin.<BR>Sparks <BR><BR>Nathan Boyer wrote:<BR>
<DIV>Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sorry</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nate.<BR><BR><B><I>James and Sue Stone <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:jandsstone@earthlink.net%3E"><jandsstone@earthlink.net></A></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in <BR>1849. . <BR>Sparks<BR><BR><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:beaverboy@sofast.net">beaverboy@sofast.net</A> wrote:<BR><BR>>Dear List,<BR>> On a less serious note.<BR>> When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday<BR>>use? Did the MM have and use them.<BR>> I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?<BR>> Does anyone know.<BR>> bb<BR>><BR>>----------------------<BR>>hist_text list info: <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://www.xmission.com/%7Edrudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
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Wedge tents yes, even ONE with blue stripes. But I have never noticed any like you have mentioned. The Baker and or Whalen is a mondern 20 century tent, I think around WWI. I have spent much time over the last 10 years looking at Millers works in museums and collect art catalogs from auctions and such. What was the name of the painting you were looking at? I know the more I look at his work the more I find.
At this time I am putting together an article on shelters for our Jim Baker Party web site. While pouring over tons of period writings,art and inventory lists, there is the one that I question the use of. That is the Prymid tent, I am sure this will fire people up! Rufus Sage tells about it in 1841, I know its not 1840, darn close. I am still out myself, but am looking hard into it. There is one Miller work that looks like a maybe. I have to look at this one some more. I don't have the name of the work right now, but when I get back home I'll pass it a long.
Bill G.
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: virus coming from Crazy Cyot's computer
Date: 27 Feb 2004 07:15:11 -0800 (PST)
--0-2511147-1077894911=:29615
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hmm. Good point. Wonder what critter COULD eat them without getting poisoned?
Addison Miller <admiller@citynet.net> wrote:> I personally think that virus writers should be scalped, tomahawked, and
staked out for the coyotes. Your mileage may vary. :)
>
>
> Todd
> Missouri Territory.
Why would you want to do that to the poor coyotes??
Regards,
Ad
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<DIV>Hmm. Good point. Wonder what critter COULD eat them without getting poisoned?<BR><BR><B><I>Addison Miller <admiller@citynet.net></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">> I personally think that virus writers should be scalped, tomahawked, and<BR>staked out for the coyotes. Your mileage may vary. :)<BR>><BR>><BR>> Todd<BR>> Missouri Territory.<BR><BR>Why would you want to do that to the poor coyotes??<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Ad<BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1801 Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 28 Feb 2004 15:50:38 -0800 (PST)
--0-1807978797-1078012238=:47456
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Magpie,
I saw that show, but didn't seem to get as much detail about the metal as you did.(Just wasen't paying enough attention I guess)
I think on the same show they had a set of "Double - Double" Gals Leg (Silver inlay leg out to the rowel and one around the heel on both sides of each spur) spurs with Self locking rowelss.(The "host" said the man that made it was said to have had a patend on the design. But he had never found a record of it.)
I have a set of "Single" Gals Leg (Leg inlay only out to the rowel with metal heel band) spurs with rolling rowels that belonged to my dad.
The rollers are really worn in the hole around the pin, showing they were really used a lot. I know one of my uncles said dad had rode a lot. Don't know if he got them new or traded for them.
The "expert" on the show said they were made by a man that first lived in Eastern OK., then he moved to Texas to make a business making spurs, then returned to OK. (Imp ling he didn't make it.)
Anyway dad grew up in Eastern OK.
SWcushing@aol.com wrote:
Did anyone happen to see the original 1801 Jefferson Peace Medal on the Antique Roadshow the other night? I didn't get the complete history of the medal, but the owner lived in Oklahoma and got the coin from some Indians I guess. What fascinated me most is, the medal appeared to be made in three pieces...front and back sandwiched together and a band around the edge.....and it was original!
Fairly worn on the front and back, with a small de-lamination of the two sides and the band broken
It also appraised for only $40,000 to $50,000.... ! I've got a one piece bronze medal I'd let go of for somewhat less.
Magpie
George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com >
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<DIV>
<DIV>Magpie,</DIV>
<DIV> I saw that show, but didn't seem to get as much detail about the metal as you did.(Just wasen't paying enough attention I guess)</DIV>
<DIV> I think on the same show they had a set of "Double - Double" Gals Leg (Silver inlay leg out to the rowel and one around the heel on both sides of each spur) spurs with Self locking rowelss.(The "host" said the man that made it was said to have had a patend on the design. But he had never found a record of it.)</DIV>
<DIV>I have a set of "Single" Gals Leg (Leg inlay only out to the rowel with metal heel band) spurs with rolling rowels that belonged to my dad.</DIV>
<DIV>The rollers are really worn in the hole around the pin, showing they were really used a lot. I know one of my uncles said dad had rode a lot. Don't know if he got them new or traded for them.</DIV>
<DIV> The "expert" on the show said they were made by a man that first lived in Eastern OK., then he moved to Texas to make a business making spurs, then returned to OK. (Imp ling he didn't make it.)</DIV>
<DIV> Anyway dad grew up in Eastern OK. <BR><BR><B><I>SWcushing@aol.com</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Did anyone happen to see the original 1801 Jefferson Peace Medal on the Antique Roadshow the other night? I didn't get the complete history of the medal, but the owner lived in Oklahoma and got the coin from some Indians I guess. What fascinated me most is, the medal appeared to be made in three pieces...front and back sandwiched together and a band around the edge.....and it was original!<BR>Fairly worn on the front and back, with a small de-lamination of the two sides and the band broken<BR><BR>It also appraised for only $40,000 to $50,000.... ! I've got a one piece bronze medal I'd let go of for somewhat less.<BR><BR>Magpie</FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></DIV><BR><BR>George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com >
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Subject: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Date: 29 Feb 2004 18:26:40 -0500
Ok, at the expense of sounding like a total greenhorn, I would like some advice on fur trade era period correct firearm recommendation for protection from mountain lions and black bears. In particular, I am looking for a firearm that I can carry with me on jaunts in the mountains,that will give me effective protection but not be overly cumbersome. Since many of these jaunts are merely exploring the mountains utilizing tools and trappings of the mountain men, and not hunting trips, I wanted a firearm that is primarily defensive. I have spent a lot of time in the woods without a firearm and felt very comfortable. But recently with mountain lion sightings increasing in frequency and with number of fatal attacks in the local foothills (and to provide comfort to a concerned wife), I wanted to get your recommendation. Will a high caliber pistol do? Let me know your thoughts.
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