ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/hist_text.200310

Internet Message Format | 2003-10-31 | 140KB

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic
Date: 01 Oct 2003 11:36:33 -0400

lanny contact dan anderson in decatur ill   @ [e-mail]
on the luger info he is real knowledgable on them and has a book on
them---should be able to answer your questions

"Hawk"
.

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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 01 Oct 2003 12:05:59 -0500

I don't remember if we have discussed this, but I think the pre-1840
looms were not as wide as what we have now.  Didn't we talk about wool
blankets being sold in halves?  Maybe that was because of narrow looms.
I do know from A.J. Miller's drawings that he drew more seams in his
tents than we normally have now.  Therefore, to be more authentic using
modern fabric we need to sew extra seams in our tents and flys to
simulate the narrow looms.  Anyway, that is what I did.

Iron Burner
Glenn Darilek




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From: "don secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 01 Oct 2003 22:58:49 +0000

Trade blankets were torn in half lengthwise not seamed up the center
lengthwise. Trade blankets were made on wide looms full width and long
enough to be ripped in halff so you have two full length blankets. There
must be a difference in the size of looms used for commercial weaving as
opposed to looms for domestic weaving. Looms are a little out of my research
area but trade blankets are not completely. Many materials that were sold
were woven on domestic looms and bought by contractors as piece work
throughout the 18th and early 19th centuries.
Best regards,
Don Secondine in the Ohio Country


>From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
>Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:05:59 -0500
>
>I don't remember if we have discussed this, but I think the pre-1840
>looms were not as wide as what we have now.  Didn't we talk about wool
>blankets being sold in halves?  Maybe that was because of narrow looms.
>I do know from A.J. Miller's drawings that he drew more seams in his
>tents than we normally have now.  Therefore, to be more authentic using
>modern fabric we need to sew extra seams in our tents and flys to
>simulate the narrow looms.  Anyway, that is what I did.
>
>Iron Burner
>Glenn Darilek
>
>
>
>
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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: sticky oilcloth
Date: 02 Oct 2003 11:41:07 -0700


Hi Brothers, I have a pack that I made and treated with linseed oil. I've
done other oil cloth with good results, using Mark Baker recipe, I thought
I used the same technique, but this pack is 'sticky' to the touch. I've
been told that washing it down with turpentine and letting dry again will
help. Do any of you have experience, suggestions, etc... I'd appreciateany
suggestions. hardtack


Randal Bublitz
[e-mail]
"Life is short, paddle hard..."



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From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Site Update
Date: 02 Oct 2003 22:56:47 -0600

There is a recent addition to the "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade" website.
The complete text of Rufus Sage's "Rocky Mountain Life" is now available in
html or PDF.  It may be found at:

http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/sage/index.html

Sage travelled in the mountains from 1841 to 1843.  Unlike many
journalists, he provides good detail on the everyday activities of the
mountaineers.  This is particularly useful to those of us seeking to
document living history activities.  On the introductory page, I made an
attempt at providing "bookmarks" to several paragraphs I found interesting.

Sage's book, which I don't think is currently in print, is a source that
deserves wider use.  Hopefully some of you will find it to be of interest.

YMHOS,


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Extreme History
Date: 04 Oct 2003 07:56:49 -0600 (MDT)

Dear List,
          IÆve been hearing the advertising for the History ChannelÆs new
fall show ôExtreme Historyö on the radio. It stars rock legend
Roger Daltrey. A preview of the show is on Sunday night I
believe.
         You might want to watch it as it should be good. Many volunteer
members of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard here in Great Falls,
Montana myself included worked with Roger on the episode about
L&C.
         I found Roger to be a very charming, intelligent, funny and just
an all around great guy. He is also tough as nails and very down
to earth. He hunts on his farm in England where he also raises
trout. He helped skin a beaver and is a natural with a knife.
           He fired my fusee and is a good shot as well.
          I donÆt even get the History Channel so will have to watch it on
tape sometime, maybe. And I donÆt mind waiting, I hate seeing
myself on TV or even in photoÆs anyway.
         I hope you all enjoy the show.
                          BB


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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Site Update
Date: 03 Oct 2003 20:19:57 -0600

Dean

You are the man!  Thank you so much for this resource that I have used
shamelessly.

Thank You
Wynn Ormond



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 10:56 PM


> There is a recent addition to the "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade"
website.
> The complete text of Rufus Sage's "Rocky Mountain Life" is now available
in
> html or PDF.  It may be found at:
>
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/sage/index.html
>
> Sage travelled in the mountains from 1841 to 1843.  Unlike many
> journalists, he provides good detail on the everyday activities of the
> mountaineers.  This is particularly useful to those of us seeking to
> document living history activities.  On the introductory page, I made an
> attempt at providing "bookmarks" to several paragraphs I found
interesting.
>
> Sage's book, which I don't think is currently in print, is a source that
> deserves wider use.  Hopefully some of you will find it to be of interest.
>
> YMHOS,
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sticky oilcloth
Date: 06 Oct 2003 13:39:31 EDT


--part1_15b.25ae597a.2cb302d3_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  Randy, I've been doing alot of sealing of late getting ready for foul
weather. You cuold try a quick wipe down with alcohol ( the rubbin not drinkin kind
) it will dry faster and not smell.

                                                 Best of luck  JR.
                                               [e-mail]

--part1_15b.25ae597a.2cb302d3_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">  Randy, I've been doing alot of sealing of late=20=
getting ready for foul weather. You cuold try a quick wipe down with alcohol=
 ( the rubbin not drinkin kind ) it will dry faster and not smell. &nbs=
p;       <BR>
<BR>
            &nbs=
p;            &n=
bsp;            =
           Best of luck&nb=
sp; JR. <BR>
            &nbs=
p;            &n=
bsp;            =
         [e-mail]</FONT></H=
TML>

--part1_15b.25ae597a.2cb302d3_boundary--

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From: "Vince Stevens" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Extreme History
Date: 09 Oct 2003 14:40:44 -0400

List,
  If you watch closely to one of the commercials you can catch a glimpse of, red shirted, Beaverboy carrying a beaver!

Vince
--

--------- Original Message ---------

DATE: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:56:49
Cc:

>Dear List,
>          IÆve been hearing the advertising for the History ChannelÆs new
>fall show ôExtreme Historyö on the radio. It stars rock legend
>Roger Daltrey. A preview of the show is on Sunday night I
>believe.
>         You might want to watch it as it should be good. Many volunteer
>members of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard here in Great Falls,
>Montana myself included worked with Roger on the episode about
>L&C.
>         I found Roger to be a very charming, intelligent, funny and just
>an all around great guy. He is also tough as nails and very down
>to earth. He hunts on his farm in England where he also raises
>trout. He helped skin a beaver and is a natural with a knife.
>           He fired my fusee and is a good shot as well.
>          I donÆt even get the History Channel so will have to watch it on
>tape sometime, maybe. And I donÆt mind waiting, I hate seeing
>myself on TV or even in photoÆs anyway.
>         I hope you all enjoy the show.
>                          BB
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Extreme History
Date: 09 Oct 2003 15:43:27 -0600 (MDT)

You'll see more of beaverboy than he wants to be seen! You might also see
Vince in this show too!
    Sincerely,
        Long live Rock & Roll!
               Beaverboy




> List,
>   If you watch closely to one of the commercials you can catch a glimpse
> of, red shirted, Beaverboy carrying a beaver!
>
> Vince
> --
>
> --------- Original Message ---------
>
> DATE: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:56:49
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Cc:
>
>>Dear List,
>>          IÆve been hearing the advertising for the History ChannelÆs new
>>fall show ôExtreme Historyö on the radio. It stars rock legend
>>Roger Daltrey. A preview of the show is on Sunday night I
>>believe.
>>         You might want to watch it as it should be good. Many volunteer
>>members of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard here in Great Falls,
>>Montana myself included worked with Roger on the episode about
>>L&C.
>>         I found Roger to be a very charming, intelligent, funny and just
>>an all around great guy. He is also tough as nails and very down
>>to earth. He hunts on his farm in England where he also raises
>>trout. He helped skin a beaver and is a natural with a knife.
>>           He fired my fusee and is a good shot as well.
>>          I donÆt even get the History Channel so will have to watch it
>> on
>>tape sometime, maybe. And I donÆt mind waiting, I hate seeing
>>myself on TV or even in photoÆs anyway.
>>         I hope you all enjoy the show.
>>                          BB
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail!
> http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005
>
> ----------------------
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>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Extreme History
Date: 09 Oct 2003 15:43:27 -0600 (MDT)

You'll see more of beaverboy than he wants to be seen! You might also see
Vince in this show too!
    Sincerely,
        Long live Rock & Roll!
               Beaverboy




> List,
>   If you watch closely to one of the commercials you can catch a glimpse
> of, red shirted, Beaverboy carrying a beaver!
>
> Vince
> --
>
> --------- Original Message ---------
>
> DATE: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:56:49
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Cc:
>
>>Dear List,
>>          IÆve been hearing the advertising for the History ChannelÆs new
>>fall show ôExtreme Historyö on the radio. It stars rock legend
>>Roger Daltrey. A preview of the show is on Sunday night I
>>believe.
>>         You might want to watch it as it should be good. Many volunteer
>>members of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard here in Great Falls,
>>Montana myself included worked with Roger on the episode about
>>L&C.
>>         I found Roger to be a very charming, intelligent, funny and just
>>an all around great guy. He is also tough as nails and very down
>>to earth. He hunts on his farm in England where he also raises
>>trout. He helped skin a beaver and is a natural with a knife.
>>           He fired my fusee and is a good shot as well.
>>          I donÆt even get the History Channel so will have to watch it
>> on
>>tape sometime, maybe. And I donÆt mind waiting, I hate seeing
>>myself on TV or even in photoÆs anyway.
>>         I hope you all enjoy the show.
>>                          BB
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail!
> http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005
>
> ----------------------
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>


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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:36:49 -0500
Date: 09 Oct 2003 21:44:14 -0600

test



Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays



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From: Samuel Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks
Date: 09 Oct 2003 20:54:56 -0700 (PDT)

Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky
Mountains?

I know that they were being manufactured in England
from 1667.

"The first period of great improvement came about the
mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
tackle and methods of fishing.

About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
led to the invention of the reel.

Experiments with material for the line led to the use
of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
by Barker in 1667.

Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
around 1730."

http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm

Sam


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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks
Date: 09 Oct 2003 23:18:01 -0500

Sam
I have heard several men who are very well versed in primitive fishing
equipment state flatly that eyed fishhooks are not documented to have been
used in the Rocky Mountains during the rendezvous period.   Maybe there are
others with different information.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM


> Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky
> Mountains?
>
> I know that they were being manufactured in England
> from 1667.
>
> "The first period of great improvement came about the
> mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
> were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
> Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
> tackle and methods of fishing.
>
> About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
> loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
> a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
> hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
> line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
> means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
> led to the invention of the reel.
>
> Experiments with material for the line led to the use
> of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
> in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
> 1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
> for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
> by Barker in 1667.
>
> Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
> the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
> Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
> point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
> his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
> were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
> by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
> and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
> around 1730."
>
> http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm
>
> Sam
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Crow Moccasins
Date: 10 Oct 2003 17:16:01 EDT

Hello the Camp
I have a friend that is interested in purchasing moccasins made in a style
and decoration of the 1820-1830 Crow. Any suggestions?
Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Primitive Cable TV
Date: 11 Oct 2003 00:37:00 -0600 (MDT)

   Cable TV has many advantages over regular TV, mainly less garbage to
watch.
   Just this last Wednesday, there was a show on the Discovery Channel
about the Donner Party. Mark Baker was in it and I think he did a fine
job of it too! I got to meet Mark at the Western National Rendezvous at
Polebridge Montana, a few years ago, and he seemed to be a genuinely
nice guy. He was very polite and allowed me to have a photo taken of us
in his camp. I've enjoyed his articles in the Muzzleloader even more
since meeting him.
   Then tonight,again on the Discovery Channel, on the show Mythbusters
they tried to reenact the old barrel full of bricks being hauled up a
pulley routine. Anyway, they tried 3 times at dropping a large (50 gal)
oak barrel from 30' filled with 500 pounds of bricks. It did not break
after 3 drops until they weakened it by removing some of the steel
bands!
   Just goes to show you, they don't build anything much better than they
used 200 years ago!
   bb

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From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks
Date: 13 Oct 2003 11:35:04 -0500

Hello Sam,

Good to hear from you and to see your question.

First, what is your specific documentation that eyed fish hooks "were being
manufactured in England from 1667?" I reviewed the web-site you set out
below and did not see that representation, but perhaps I either missed it or
you have another reference.

Second, while eyed hooks were certainly known to fisherman for many hundreds
of years before 1667, they were not commonly manufactured or available, due,
in the main, to the poor quality of the metallurgy of the time.  In fact,
except for a frontpiece drawing reference on one early English tome (which
may be the reference to which you are referring), which appears to have one
of the drawings of a fly tied on what seems to be an eyed hook, and a later
French reference to at least one example of the manufacture of eyed hooks in
the 1700's---and also some eyed hooks, probably French, found at early sites
in Canada), I have found no reference to the use of eyed hooks (by "modern
fishermen) until the mid-1800's when the first patent applications for such
were filed.  It appears that it was after 1850 that they were commercially
available in any quantity, and really it was not until after the Civil war
that you see them advertised.  Even then, the eyeless (blind-eye or flats)
were still far and away the most popular styles, as they were well known,
easy to use and did not suffer the many defects found, even by that date, in
the finishing process of hook manufacture.

As to their use in the Rockies, I have yet to find any reference to the use
of an eyed hook, but certainly a pin or some bit of metal could have been
modified to make an eyed hook.  However, commercially, they do not appear on
any trade ledger or publication.  That being said, I would strongly argue
that the use of eyed hooks to reenact fur trade fishing would be inaccurate.
They were not being sold by any major producer during that era and there is
no reference to their use in the Rockies as noted above.

By the way, your reference to Kirby was of merit, as he really had the hook
market to himself for many years because of the high quality of his hooks.
But he did not advertise, ever, eyed hooks, and he was a master of stealing
a march on his competition, so I would respectfully suggest that had eyed
hooks been commonplace enough to the subject of  mass production or
widespread use, you would have seen it and heard it from him.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Paul


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM


> Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky
> Mountains?
>
> I know that they were being manufactured in England
> from 1667.
>
> "The first period of great improvement came about the
> mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
> were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
> Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
> tackle and methods of fishing.
>
> About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
> loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
> a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
> hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
> line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
> means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
> led to the invention of the reel.
>
> Experiments with material for the line led to the use
> of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
> in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
> 1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
> for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
> by Barker in 1667.
>
> Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
> the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
> Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
> point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
> his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
> were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
> by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
> and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
> around 1730."
>
> http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm
>
> Sam
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
Date: 13 Oct 2003 12:03:43 -0500

I have seen those hooks without eyes, but was curious as to how they get
tied on, if someone would please point me in the direction of how to do
that, I would appreciate the assistance.

Monte Holder
Missouri, Saline County


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From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
Date: 13 Oct 2003 13:07:43 -0500

Monte,

Rather easy to do, but instead of trying to explain it, if you will get me
your mailing address, I will send you a sheet that details that technique
together with other "period" fishing knots.

Regards,

Paul

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 12:03 PM


> I have seen those hooks without eyes, but was curious as to how they get
> tied on, if someone would please point me in the direction of how to do
> that, I would appreciate the assistance.
>
> Monte Holder
> Missouri, Saline County
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>



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From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
Date: 13 Oct 2003 17:30:56 -0600

Dear Monte,

There's a knot called a "nail knot" that fly fishermen use to tie a leader
to fly line. Years ago, before eyes on fishhooks were common, the nail knot
was also used to tie metal hooks on lines. I've often used it myself to tie
two pieces of line together. The knot is too difficult to describe but
you'll find a diagram of it in almost any book on fishing tackle, sailors'
knots, or--probably--even the Boy Scout Manual. Try a web search for "nail
knot" and you should come up with a site that has a diagram. Hope this
helps.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY 82072-2979
Phone: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:03 AM


> I have seen those hooks without eyes, but was curious as to how they get
> tied on, if someone would please point me in the direction of how to do
> that, I would appreciate the assistance.
>
> Monte Holder
> Missouri, Saline County
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
Date: 14 Oct 2003 08:07:52 -0500

Thanks for the advise, I have heard of the nail knot, have several booklets
on knots, but none here at school.  I will give the search a try, I saw
somewhere along the line how to make hooks like that out of nails, but now
can't remember where.  Ain't aging wonderful?

Monte Holder
Missouri, Saline Co
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 6:30 PM


> Dear Monte,
>
> There's a knot called a "nail knot" that fly fishermen use to tie a leader
> to fly line. Years ago, before eyes on fishhooks were common, the nail
knot
> was also used to tie metal hooks on lines. ........Try a web search for
"nail
> knot" and you should come up with a site that has a diagram. Hope this
> helps.
>
> John
>
> Dr. John L. Allen
> 2703 Leslie Court
> Laramie, WY 82072-2979
> Phone: [phone]
> e-mail: [e-mail]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:03 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
>
>
> > I have seen those hooks without eyes, but was curious as to how they get
> > tied on, if someone would please point me in the direction of how to do
> > that, I would appreciate the assistance.
> >
> > Monte Holder
> > Missouri, Saline County
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
Date: 14 Oct 2003 10:17:41 -0700

Monty,

There is a similar knot to the nail knot that we use but doesn't require a
nail or similar tool. I think it is included in Paul's instruction manual
which you should send for. Very simple knot to tie with or without a eyed
hook. Oh, yea it does require that you follow directions and have at least
two fingers on one hand and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! <G> I'd
call it a snelling knot but that might not be correct. It's the knot that is
found on a pre-snelled hook. Basically if you can copy it keep in mind that
you don't need to pass the line through an eye as the knot will cinch up
fine against the shank and certainly will not pull off due to the flattened
end of the shank.

Capt. Lahti'


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 6:07 AM


> Thanks for the advise, I have heard of the nail knot, have several
booklets
> on knots, but none here at school.  I will give the search a try, I saw
> somewhere along the line how to make hooks like that out of nails, but now
> can't remember where.  Ain't aging wonderful?
>
> Monte Holder
> Missouri, Saline Co
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 6:30 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
>
>
> > Dear Monte,
> >
> > There's a knot called a "nail knot" that fly fishermen use to tie a
leader
> > to fly line. Years ago, before eyes on fishhooks were common, the nail
> knot
> > was also used to tie metal hooks on lines. ........Try a web search for
> "nail
> > knot" and you should come up with a site that has a diagram. Hope this
> > helps.
> >
> > John
> >
> > Dr. John L. Allen
> > 2703 Leslie Court
> > Laramie, WY 82072-2979
> > Phone: [phone]
> > e-mail: [e-mail]
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:03 AM
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks and knots
> >
> >
> > > I have seen those hooks without eyes, but was curious as to how they
get
> > > tied on, if someone would please point me in the direction of how to
do
> > > that, I would appreciate the assistance.
> > >
> > > Monte Holder
> > > Missouri, Saline County
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory
Date: 14 Oct 2003 14:49:50 -0500

I don't  know about the fingers, sometimes I seem to be all thumbs.  Now if
I could just remember where I saw those directions for making eyeless hooks
out of finish nails....  I've seen snelled hooks in the sporting goods
section at the local Walmart but never bought any.

Monte HOlder
on the bluffs above the Blackwater
Saline COunty Missouri

>
> There is a similar knot to the nail knot that we use but doesn't require a
> nail or similar tool. ......... Oh, yea it does require that you follow
directions and have at least
> two fingers on one hand and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! <G> I'd
> call it a snelling knot but that might not be correct. It's the knot that
is
> found on a pre-snelled hook.


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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory
Date: 14 Oct 2003 15:34:22 -0700

Monte,

I'll bet you could find directions for some suitable knots doing a Google
search but if your impatient I'll test my communication skills and see if I
can walk you through it.

I like to start with the bend of the hook to my right and the shank to my
left, held horizontal and in thumb and fore finger of my left hand. Now what
I want to do is tie a knot on that shank so the leader trails off the end of
the shank to my left.

To start the knot: Think of a loop-d'-loop like in a kid's little car track
The line starts on the top of the shank at the bend (this is the end of the
leader though it can stick out over the bend an inch or so, just so it's not
too long) and then the line makes a loop up and towards the bend and then
back along the shank. With an eyed hook the line would go through the eye at
this point but we don't got no eye in the hook so it just lays along the top
of the shank and goes off to the left through your fingers and left hand so
its out of the way. Make it as long or as short as you want but that will be
your finished leader for that hook.

OK, we got the loop. And we are controlling that loop along with the hook
shank with our thumb and index finger. Now the trick part. You want that
loop big enough so you can get the first two fingers of your right hand
inside it easily. So the loop itself at this point might actually be a few
inches across, say maybe three or four inches. By spinning the loop in those
two right hand fingers your going to wrap just one leg of that loop around
the shank and with dexterous use of the odd finger in that loop your going
to keep the other leg of the loop along the shank.

It's natural for the bend facing leg of the loop to be kept along the shank
and the left leg going around both the shank and the right leg of the loop.
Got the picture of the motion? As you spin the loop with those two fingers
the index finger will easily keep the front leg laying along the shaft as
the middle finger brings the loop around the bend, point of the hook and the
short end of the leader.

In other words what you are doing is "Whipping" a hook shank instead of the
end of a rope or line or small stuff. But your doing it in one motion
instead of having a hidden loop that you would normally tuck the end of the
whipping through after several wraps around the rope and tucking it out of
the way by pulling on the other end. Maybe I shouldn't have offered that
analogy.

Well anyway if you wrap the loop around and let it form in the proper
direction, forward towards the bend, when your done you just tug on the
leader end and snug it up and it binds itself around the shank quite
handily. Might take a couple try's before you loose the leader and the knot
falls apart before you've taken a few wraps around the shank. Keep at it. If
it's not possible to understand these directions then we'll just have to
find a picture. <G>

Capt. Lahti'


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 12:49 PM


> I don't  know about the fingers, sometimes I seem to be all thumbs.  Now
if
> I could just remember where I saw those directions for making eyeless
hooks
> out of finish nails....  I've seen snelled hooks in the sporting goods
> section at the local Walmart but never bought any.
>
> Monte HOlder
> on the bluffs above the Blackwater
> Saline COunty Missouri
>
> >
> > There is a similar knot to the nail knot that we use but doesn't require
a
> > nail or similar tool. ......... Oh, yea it does require that you follow
> directions and have at least
> > two fingers on one hand and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! <G>
I'd
> > call it a snelling knot but that might not be correct. It's the knot
that
> is
> > found on a pre-snelled hook.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: large horns.....off topic
Date: 14 Oct 2003 19:59:17 -0500

    To the ladies and gentlemen of the list......I have the horns taken from
one of my Scottish highland cows for sale. They are scrimshaw quality horns
and very large. The measurements for the right horn are 21 inches long by 8
and a half around at the base. The left side is an inch longer with the same
base measurement. I want 25.00 for each horn plus wahtever the shipping is
to get it to you. These horns still have their cores so they weigh about
three pounds each.
    Anyone that is interested can contact me off list for a picture.
Thanks for your time.     John







The Stitchin' Scotsman
100% Handsewn Elkhide garments
and moccasins
Manu Forti
www.stitchinscotsman.com



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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory
Date: 14 Oct 2003 19:47:16 -0600


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Sound like you are describing a "nail knot?"
Sparks

roger lahti wrote:

>Monte,
>
>I'll bet you could find directions for some suitable knots doing a Google
>search but if your impatient I'll test my communication skills and see if I
>can walk you through it.
>
>I like to start with the bend of the hook to my right and the shank to my
>left, held horizontal and in thumb and fore finger of my left hand. Now what
>I want to do is tie a knot on that shank so the leader trails off the end of
>the shank to my left.
>
>To start the knot: Think of a loop-d'-loop like in a kid's little car track
>The line starts on the top of the shank at the bend (this is the end of the
>leader though it can stick out over the bend an inch or so, just so it's not
>too long) and then the line makes a loop up and towards the bend and then
>back along the shank. With an eyed hook the line would go through the eye at
>this point but we don't got no eye in the hook so it just lays along the top
>of the shank and goes off to the left through your fingers and left hand so
>its out of the way. Make it as long or as short as you want but that will be
>your finished leader for that hook.
>
>OK, we got the loop. And we are controlling that loop along with the hook
>shank with our thumb and index finger. Now the trick part. You want that
>loop big enough so you can get the first two fingers of your right hand
>inside it easily. So the loop itself at this point might actually be a few
>inches across, say maybe three or four inches. By spinning the loop in those
>two right hand fingers your going to wrap just one leg of that loop around
>the shank and with dexterous use of the odd finger in that loop your going
>to keep the other leg of the loop along the shank.
>
>It's natural for the bend facing leg of the loop to be kept along the shank
>and the left leg going around both the shank and the right leg of the loop.
>Got the picture of the motion? As you spin the loop with those two fingers
>the index finger will easily keep the front leg laying along the shaft as
>the middle finger brings the loop around the bend, point of the hook and the
>short end of the leader.
>
>In other words what you are doing is "Whipping" a hook shank instead of the
>end of a rope or line or small stuff. But your doing it in one motion
>instead of having a hidden loop that you would normally tuck the end of the
>whipping through after several wraps around the rope and tucking it out of
>the way by pulling on the other end. Maybe I shouldn't have offered that
>analogy.
>
>Well anyway if you wrap the loop around and let it form in the proper
>direction, forward towards the bend, when your done you just tug on the
>leader end and snug it up and it binds itself around the shank quite
>handily. Might take a couple try's before you loose the leader and the knot
>falls apart before you've taken a few wraps around the shank. Keep at it. If
>it's not possible to understand these directions then we'll just have to
>find a picture. <G>
>
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Monte Holder" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 12:49 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory
>
>
>
>
>>I don't  know about the fingers, sometimes I seem to be all thumbs.  Now
>>
>>
>if
>
>
>>I could just remember where I saw those directions for making eyeless
>>
>>
>hooks
>
>
>>out of finish nails....  I've seen snelled hooks in the sporting goods
>>section at the local Walmart but never bought any.
>>
>>Monte HOlder
>>on the bluffs above the Blackwater
>>Saline COunty Missouri
>>
>>
>>
>>>There is a similar knot to the nail knot that we use but doesn't require
>>>
>>>
>a
>
>
>>>nail or similar tool. ......... Oh, yea it does require that you follow
>>>
>>>
>>directions and have at least
>>
>>
>>>two fingers on one hand and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! <G>
>>>
>>>
>I'd
>
>
>>>call it a snelling knot but that might not be correct. It's the knot
>>>
>>>
>that
>
>
>>is
>>
>>
>>>found on a pre-snelled hook.
>>>
>>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>


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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
Sound like you are describing a "nail knot?"<br>
Sparks<br>
<br>
roger lahti wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid00ab01c392a3$50f0aaa0$e9037444@x2d1a5">
  <pre wrap="">Monte,

I'll bet you could find directions for some suitable knots doing a Google
search but if your impatient I'll test my communication skills and see if I
can walk you through it.

I like to start with the bend of the hook to my right and the shank to my
left, held horizontal and in thumb and fore finger of my left hand. Now what
I want to do is tie a knot on that shank so the leader trails off the end of
the shank to my left.

To start the knot: Think of a loop-d'-loop like in a kid's little car track
The line starts on the top of the shank at the bend (this is the end of the
leader though it can stick out over the bend an inch or so, just so it's not
too long) and then the line makes a loop up and towards the bend and then
back along the shank. With an eyed hook the line would go through the eye at
this point but we don't got no eye in the hook so it just lays along the top
of the shank and goes off to the left through your fingers and left hand so
its out of the way. Make it as long or as short as you want but that will be
your finished leader for that hook.

OK, we got the loop. And we are controlling that loop along with the hook
shank with our thumb and index finger. Now the trick part. You want that
loop big enough so you can get the first two fingers of your right hand
inside it easily. So the loop itself at this point might actually be a few
inches across, say maybe three or four inches. By spinning the loop in those
two right hand fingers your going to wrap just one leg of that loop around
the shank and with dexterous use of the odd finger in that loop your going
to keep the other leg of the loop along the shank.

It's natural for the bend facing leg of the loop to be kept along the shank
and the left leg going around both the shank and the right leg of the loop.
Got the picture of the motion? As you spin the loop with those two fingers
the index finger will easily keep the front leg laying along the shaft as
the middle finger brings the loop around the bend, point of the hook and the
short end of the leader.

In other words what you are doing is "Whipping" a hook shank instead of the
end of a rope or line or small stuff. But your doing it in one motion
instead of having a hidden loop that you would normally tuck the end of the
whipping through after several wraps around the rope and tucking it out of
the way by pulling on the other end. Maybe I shouldn't have offered that
analogy.

Well anyway if you wrap the loop around and let it form in the proper
direction, forward towards the bend, when your done you just tug on the
leader end and snug it up and it binds itself around the shank quite
handily. Might take a couple try's before you loose the leader and the knot
falls apart before you've taken a few wraps around the shank. Keep at it. If
it's not possible to understand these directions then we'll just have to
find a picture. <G>

Capt. Lahti'


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 12:49 PM


  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">I don't  know about the fingers, sometimes I seem to be all thumbs.  Now
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->if
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">I could just remember where I saw those directions for making eyeless
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->hooks
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">out of finish nails....  I've seen snelled hooks in the sporting goods
section at the local Walmart but never bought any.

Monte HOlder
on the bluffs above the Blackwater
Saline COunty Missouri

    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">There is a similar knot to the nail knot that we use but doesn't require
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->a
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">nail or similar tool. ......... Oh, yea it does require that you follow
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">directions and have at least
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">two fingers on one hand and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! <G>
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->I'd
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">call it a snelling knot but that might not be correct. It's the knot
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->that
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">is
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">found on a pre-snelled hook.
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">
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    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->

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  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: gorges
Date: 14 Oct 2003 19:55:54 -0600


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I believe another kind of 'hook' all together is the gorge.  Gorges are
pointed sticks or pieces of bone, ivory or whatever sharpened on both
ends and tied along a groove in the center (imagine a carrot pointed on
both ends and tied around the middle).  I'm not sure where in the world
these were used.  But they certainly don't have "eyes" and catch fish.
 Any one I ever imagined making was way too big for the fish available
to be caught.
sparks

Paul Jones wrote:

>Hello Sam,
>
>Good to hear from you and to see your question.
>
>First, what is your specific documentation that eyed fish hooks "were being
>manufactured in England from 1667?" I reviewed the web-site you set out
>below and did not see that representation, but perhaps I either missed it or
>you have another reference.
>
>Second, while eyed hooks were certainly known to fisherman for many hundreds
>of years before 1667, they were not commonly manufactured or available, due,
>in the main, to the poor quality of the metallurgy of the time.  In fact,
>except for a frontpiece drawing reference on one early English tome (which
>may be the reference to which you are referring), which appears to have one
>of the drawings of a fly tied on what seems to be an eyed hook, and a later
>French reference to at least one example of the manufacture of eyed hooks in
>the 1700's---and also some eyed hooks, probably French, found at early sites
>in Canada), I have found no reference to the use of eyed hooks (by "modern
>fishermen) until the mid-1800's when the first patent applications for such
>were filed.  It appears that it was after 1850 that they were commercially
>available in any quantity, and really it was not until after the Civil war
>that you see them advertised.  Even then, the eyeless (blind-eye or flats)
>were still far and away the most popular styles, as they were well known,
>easy to use and did not suffer the many defects found, even by that date, in
>the finishing process of hook manufacture.
>
>As to their use in the Rockies, I have yet to find any reference to the use
>of an eyed hook, but certainly a pin or some bit of metal could have been
>modified to make an eyed hook.  However, commercially, they do not appear on
>any trade ledger or publication.  That being said, I would strongly argue
>that the use of eyed hooks to reenact fur trade fishing would be inaccurate.
>They were not being sold by any major producer during that era and there is
>no reference to their use in the Rockies as noted above.
>
>By the way, your reference to Kirby was of merit, as he really had the hook
>market to himself for many years because of the high quality of his hooks.
>But he did not advertise, ever, eyed hooks, and he was a master of stealing
>a march on his competition, so I would respectfully suggest that had eyed
>hooks been commonplace enough to the subject of  mass production or
>widespread use, you would have seen it and heard it from him.
>
>Look forward to hearing from you.
>
>Regards,
>
>Paul
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Samuel Keller" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks
>
>
>
>
>>Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky
>>Mountains?
>>
>>I know that they were being manufactured in England
>>from 1667.
>>
>>"The first period of great improvement came about the
>>mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
>>were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
>>Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
>>tackle and methods of fishing.
>>
>>About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
>>loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
>>a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
>>hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
>>line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
>>means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
>>led to the invention of the reel.
>>
>>Experiments with material for the line led to the use
>>of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
>>in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
>>1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
>>for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
>>by Barker in 1667.
>>
>>Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
>>the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
>>Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
>>point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
>>his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
>>were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
>>by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
>>and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
>>around 1730."
>>
>>http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm
>>
>>Sam
>>
>>
>>__________________________________
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
>>http://shopping.yahoo.com
>>
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>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>----------------------
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>
>
>


--------------050909090506070600050304
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</head>
<body>
I believe another kind of 'hook' all together is the gorge.  Gorges are pointed
sticks or pieces of bone, ivory or whatever sharpened on both ends and tied
along a groove in the center (imagine a carrot pointed on both ends and tied
around the middle).  I'm not sure where in the world these were used.  But
they certainly don't have "eyes" and catch fish.  Any one I ever imagined
making was way too big for the fish available to be caught.  <br>
sparks<br>
<br>
Paul Jones wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001801c391a7$f66843a0$4becdecf@pwj">
  <pre wrap="">Hello Sam,

Good to hear from you and to see your question.

First, what is your specific documentation that eyed fish hooks "were being
manufactured in England from 1667?" I reviewed the web-site you set out
below and did not see that representation, but perhaps I either missed it or
you have another reference.

Second, while eyed hooks were certainly known to fisherman for many hundreds
of years before 1667, they were not commonly manufactured or available, due,
in the main, to the poor quality of the metallurgy of the time.  In fact,
except for a frontpiece drawing reference on one early English tome (which
may be the reference to which you are referring), which appears to have one
of the drawings of a fly tied on what seems to be an eyed hook, and a later
French reference to at least one example of the manufacture of eyed hooks in
the 1700's---and also some eyed hooks, probably French, found at early sites
in Canada), I have found no reference to the use of eyed hooks (by "modern
fishermen) until the mid-1800's when the first patent applications for such
were filed.  It appears that it was after 1850 that they were commercially
available in any quantity, and really it was not until after the Civil war
that you see them advertised.  Even then, the eyeless (blind-eye or flats)
were still far and away the most popular styles, as they were well known,
easy to use and did not suffer the many defects found, even by that date, in
the finishing process of hook manufacture.

As to their use in the Rockies, I have yet to find any reference to the use
of an eyed hook, but certainly a pin or some bit of metal could have been
modified to make an eyed hook.  However, commercially, they do not appear on
any trade ledger or publication.  That being said, I would strongly argue
that the use of eyed hooks to reenact fur trade fishing would be inaccurate.
They were not being sold by any major producer during that era and there is
no reference to their use in the Rockies as noted above.

By the way, your reference to Kirby was of merit, as he really had the hook
market to himself for many years because of the high quality of his hooks.
But he did not advertise, ever, eyed hooks, and he was a master of stealing
a march on his competition, so I would respectfully suggest that had eyed
hooks been commonplace enough to the subject of  mass production or
widespread use, you would have seen it and heard it from him.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Paul


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM


  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky
Mountains?

I know that they were being manufactured in England
from 1667.

"The first period of great improvement came about the
mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
tackle and methods of fishing.

About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
led to the invention of the reel.

Experiments with material for the line led to the use
of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
by Barker in 1667.

Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
around 1730."

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm">http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm</a>

Sam


__________________________________
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    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->


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  </pre>
</blockquote>
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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no memory
Date: 14 Oct 2003 21:28:03 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I guess Sparks you could call it a nail knot but you don't need the =
nail. In a nail knot you wrap the line around the nail and then pass it =
along the nail to finish it. In the knot I described you wrap the line =
around itself using your two fingers. Fishing stores sell the same knot =
already tied around a piece of plastic tubing so you can slip your line =
through it, slip the tubing out and cinch the knot tight to form a knot =
on your line that you can adjust for slip bobbers.=20

Capt. Lahti'


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: James and Sue Stone=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 6:47 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fish Hooks, knots, and all thumbs and no =
memory


  Sound like you are describing a "nail knot?"
  Sparks

  roger lahti wrote:

Monte,

I'll bet you could find directions for some suitable knots doing a =
Google
search but if your impatient I'll test my communication skills and see =
if I
can walk you through it.

I like to start with the bend of the hook to my right and the shank to =
my
left, held horizontal and in thumb and fore finger of my left hand. Now =
what
I want to do is tie a knot on that shank so the leader trails off the =
end of
the shank to my left.

To start the knot: Think of a loop-d'-loop like in a kid's little car =
track
The line starts on the top of the shank at the bend (this is the end of =
the
leader though it can stick out over the bend an inch or so, just so it's =
not
too long) and then the line makes a loop up and towards the bend and =
then
back along the shank. With an eyed hook the line would go through the =
eye at
this point but we don't got no eye in the hook so it just lays along the =
top
of the shank and goes off to the left through your fingers and left hand =
so
its out of the way. Make it as long or as short as you want but that =
will be
your finished leader for that hook.

OK, we got the loop. And we are controlling that loop along with the =
hook
shank with our thumb and index finger. Now the trick part. You want that
loop big enough so you can get the first two fingers of your right hand
inside it easily. So the loop itself at this point might actually be a =
few
inches across, say maybe three or four inches. By spinning the loop in =
those
two right hand fingers your going to wrap just one leg of that loop =
around
the shank and with dexterous use of the odd finger in that loop your =
going
to keep the other leg of the loop along the shank.

It's natural for the bend facing leg of the loop to be kept along the =
shank
and the left leg going around both the shank and the right leg of the =
loop.
Got the picture of the motion? As you spin the loop with those two =
fingers
the index finger will easily keep the front leg laying along the shaft =
as
the middle finger brings the loop around the bend, point of the hook and =
the
short end of the leader.

In other words what you are doing is "Whipping" a hook shank instead of =
the
end of a rope or line or small stuff. But your doing it in one motion
instead of having a hidden loop that you would normally tuck the end of =
the
whipping through after several wraps around the rope and tucking it out =
of
the way by pulling on the other end. Maybe I shouldn't have offered that
analogy.

Well anyway if you wrap the loop around and let it form in the proper
direction, forward towards the bend, when your done you just tug on the
leader end and snug it up and it binds itself around the shank quite
handily. Might take a couple try's before you loose the leader and the =
knot
falls apart before you've taken a few wraps around the shank. Keep at =
it. If
it's not possible to understand these directions then we'll just have to
find a picture. <G>

Capt. Lahti'


----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 12:49 PM


  I don't  know about the fingers, sometimes I seem to be all thumbs.  =
Now
    if
  I could just remember where I saw those directions for making eyeless
    hooks
  out of finish nails....  I've seen snelled hooks in the sporting goods
section at the local Walmart but never bought any.

Monte HOlder
on the bluffs above the Blackwater
Saline COunty Missouri

    There is a similar knot to the nail knot that we use but doesn't =
require
      a
  nail or similar tool. ......... Oh, yea it does require that you =
follow
      directions and have at least
    two fingers on one hand and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! =
<G>
      I'd
  call it a snelling knot but that might not be correct. It's the knot
      that
  is
    found on a pre-snelled hook.
      ----------------------
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I guess Sparks you could call it a nail =
knot but=20
you don't need the nail. In a nail knot you wrap the line around the =
nail and=20
then pass it along the nail to finish it. In the knot I described you =
wrap the=20
line around itself using your two fingers. Fishing stores sell the same =
knot=20
already tied around a piece of plastic tubing so you can slip your line =
through=20
it, slip the tubing out and cinch the knot tight to form a knot on your =
line=20
that you can adjust for slip bobbers. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">James=20
  and Sue Stone</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 14, 2003 =
6:47=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Fish =
Hooks,=20
  knots, and all thumbs and no memory</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Sound like you are describing a "nail=20
  knot?"<BR>Sparks<BR><BR>roger lahti wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid00ab01c392a3$50f0aaa0$e9037444@x2d1a5 =
type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Monte,

I'll bet you could find directions for some suitable knots doing a =
Google
search but if your impatient I'll test my communication skills and see =
if I
can walk you through it.

I like to start with the bend of the hook to my right and the shank to =
my
left, held horizontal and in thumb and fore finger of my left hand. Now =
what
I want to do is tie a knot on that shank so the leader trails off the =
end of
the shank to my left.

To start the knot: Think of a loop-d'-loop like in a kid's little car =
track
The line starts on the top of the shank at the bend (this is the end of =
the
leader though it can stick out over the bend an inch or so, just so it's =
not
too long) and then the line makes a loop up and towards the bend and =
then
back along the shank. With an eyed hook the line would go through the =
eye at
this point but we don't got no eye in the hook so it just lays along the =
top
of the shank and goes off to the left through your fingers and left hand =
so
its out of the way. Make it as long or as short as you want but that =
will be
your finished leader for that hook.

OK, we got the loop. And we are controlling that loop along with the =
hook
shank with our thumb and index finger. Now the trick part. You want that
loop big enough so you can get the first two fingers of your right hand
inside it easily. So the loop itself at this point might actually be a =
few
inches across, say maybe three or four inches. By spinning the loop in =
those
two right hand fingers your going to wrap just one leg of that loop =
around
the shank and with dexterous use of the odd finger in that loop your =
going
to keep the other leg of the loop along the shank.

It's natural for the bend facing leg of the loop to be kept along the =
shank
and the left leg going around both the shank and the right leg of the =
loop.
Got the picture of the motion? As you spin the loop with those two =
fingers
the index finger will easily keep the front leg laying along the shaft =
as
the middle finger brings the loop around the bend, point of the hook and =
the
short end of the leader.

In other words what you are doing is "Whipping" a hook shank instead of =
the
end of a rope or line or small stuff. But your doing it in one motion
instead of having a hidden loop that you would normally tuck the end of =
the
whipping through after several wraps around the rope and tucking it out =
of
the way by pulling on the other end. Maybe I shouldn't have offered that
analogy.

Well anyway if you wrap the loop around and let it form in the proper
direction, forward towards the bend, when your done you just tug on the
leader end and snug it up and it binds itself around the shank quite
handily. Might take a couple try's before you loose the leader and the =
knot
falls apart before you've taken a few wraps around the shank. Keep at =
it. If
it's not possible to understand these directions then we'll just have to
find a picture. <G>

Capt. Lahti'


----- Original Message -----=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"><[e-mail]=
.net></A>
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"><[e-mail]=
.com></A>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 12:49 PM


  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">I don't  know about the =
fingers, sometimes I seem to be all thumbs.  Now
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->if
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">I could just remember where =
I saw those directions for making eyeless
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->hooks
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">out of finish nails....  =
I've seen snelled hooks in the sporting goods
section at the local Walmart but never bought any.

Monte HOlder
on the bluffs above the Blackwater
Saline COunty Missouri

    </PRE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">There is a similar knot =
to the nail knot that we use but doesn't require
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->a
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">nail or similar tool. =
......... Oh, yea it does require that you follow
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">directions and have at least
    </PRE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">two fingers on one hand =
and maybe a finger and thumb on the other! <G>
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->I'd
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">call it a snelling knot =
but that might not be correct. It's the knot
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->that
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">is
    </PRE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">found on a pre-snelled =
hook.
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">----------------------
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ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A>
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->

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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gorges
Date: 14 Oct 2003 21:33:41 -0700

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With some imagination one can find a use for a gorge hook. For one, a =
small gorge with some flour dough around it will catch carp and suckers =
for two. If you make it small enough say the size of a piece of spring =
wire you can thread a worm on it and catch whatever will swallow a worm. =
Most gorge hooks are pictured as being quite large but any bird will =
provide small enough bones for such a hook and likely small enough to =
thread a worm. Dead fish carcass's have small enough bones to make such =
a hook. Small skeleton + worm or grasshopper + length of line twisted =
from available materials =3D dinner. Usually the bait is heavy enough to =
sink it in calm water. An overhanging branch enough of a pole to leave a =
"set". Be patient and allow the fish to swallow and get the "hook" =
caught in his stomach.

Capt. Lahti


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: James and Sue Stone=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 6:55 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: gorges


  I believe another kind of 'hook' all together is the gorge.  Gorges =
are pointed sticks or pieces of bone, ivory or whatever sharpened on =
both ends and tied along a groove in the center (imagine a carrot =
pointed on both ends and tied around the middle).  I'm not sure where in =
the world these were used.  But they certainly don't have "eyes" and =
catch fish.  Any one I ever imagined making was way too big for the fish =
available to be caught. =20
  sparks

  Paul Jones wrote:

Hello Sam,

Good to hear from you and to see your question.

First, what is your specific documentation that eyed fish hooks "were =
being
manufactured in England from 1667?" I reviewed the web-site you set out
below and did not see that representation, but perhaps I either missed =
it or
you have another reference.

Second, while eyed hooks were certainly known to fisherman for many =
hundreds
of years before 1667, they were not commonly manufactured or available, =
due,
in the main, to the poor quality of the metallurgy of the time.  In =
fact,
except for a frontpiece drawing reference on one early English tome =
(which
may be the reference to which you are referring), which appears to have =
one
of the drawings of a fly tied on what seems to be an eyed hook, and a =
later
French reference to at least one example of the manufacture of eyed =
hooks in
the 1700's---and also some eyed hooks, probably French, found at early =
sites
in Canada), I have found no reference to the use of eyed hooks (by =
"modern
fishermen) until the mid-1800's when the first patent applications for =
such
were filed.  It appears that it was after 1850 that they were =
commercially
available in any quantity, and really it was not until after the Civil =
war
that you see them advertised.  Even then, the eyeless (blind-eye or =
flats)
were still far and away the most popular styles, as they were well =
known,
easy to use and did not suffer the many defects found, even by that =
date, in
the finishing process of hook manufacture.

As to their use in the Rockies, I have yet to find any reference to the =
use
of an eyed hook, but certainly a pin or some bit of metal could have =
been
modified to make an eyed hook.  However, commercially, they do not =
appear on
any trade ledger or publication.  That being said, I would strongly =
argue
that the use of eyed hooks to reenact fur trade fishing would be =
inaccurate.
They were not being sold by any major producer during that era and there =
is
no reference to their use in the Rockies as noted above.

By the way, your reference to Kirby was of merit, as he really had the =
hook
market to himself for many years because of the high quality of his =
hooks.
But he did not advertise, ever, eyed hooks, and he was a master of =
stealing
a march on his competition, so I would respectfully suggest that had =
eyed
hooks been commonplace enough to the subject of  mass production or
widespread use, you would have seen it and heard it from him.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Paul


----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM


  Can anyone document eyed fish hooks in the Rocky
Mountains?

I know that they were being manufactured in England
from 1667.

"The first period of great improvement came about the
mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
tackle and methods of fishing.

About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
led to the invention of the reel.

Experiments with material for the line led to the use
of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
by Barker in 1667.

Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
around 1730."

http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm

Sam


__________________________________
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http://shopping.yahoo.com

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>With some imagination one can find a =
use for a=20
gorge hook. For one, a small gorge with some flour dough around it will =
catch=20
carp and suckers for two. If you make it small enough say the size of a =
piece of=20
spring wire you can thread a worm on it and catch whatever will swallow =
a worm.=20
Most gorge hooks are pictured as being quite large but any bird will =
provide=20
small enough bones for such a hook and likely small enough to thread a =
worm.=20
Dead fish carcass's have small enough bones to make such a hook. Small =
skeleton=20
+ worm or grasshopper + length of line twisted from available materials =
=3D=20
dinner. Usually the bait is heavy enough to sink it in calm water. An=20
overhanging branch enough of a pole to leave a "set". Be patient and =
allow the=20
fish to swallow and get the "hook" caught in his stomach.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. Lahti</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">James=20
  and Sue Stone</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 14, 2003 =
6:55=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
gorges</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>I believe another kind of 'hook' all together is the =
gorge.=20
   Gorges are pointed sticks or pieces of bone, ivory or whatever =
sharpened=20
  on both ends and tied along a groove in the center (imagine a carrot =
pointed=20
  on both ends and tied around the middle).  I'm not sure where in =
the=20
  world these were used.  But they certainly don't have "eyes" and =
catch=20
  fish.  Any one I ever imagined making was way too big for the =
fish=20
  available to be caught.  <BR>sparks<BR><BR>Paul Jones wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid001801c391a7$f66843a0$4becdecf@pwj =
type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Hello Sam,

Good to hear from you and to see your question.

First, what is your specific documentation that eyed fish hooks "were =
being
manufactured in England from 1667?" I reviewed the web-site you set out
below and did not see that representation, but perhaps I either missed =
it or
you have another reference.

Second, while eyed hooks were certainly known to fisherman for many =
hundreds
of years before 1667, they were not commonly manufactured or available, =
due,
in the main, to the poor quality of the metallurgy of the time.  In =
fact,
except for a frontpiece drawing reference on one early English tome =
(which
may be the reference to which you are referring), which appears to have =
one
of the drawings of a fly tied on what seems to be an eyed hook, and a =
later
French reference to at least one example of the manufacture of eyed =
hooks in
the 1700's---and also some eyed hooks, probably French, found at early =
sites
in Canada), I have found no reference to the use of eyed hooks (by =
"modern
fishermen) until the mid-1800's when the first patent applications for =
such
were filed.  It appears that it was after 1850 that they were =
commercially
available in any quantity, and really it was not until after the Civil =
war
that you see them advertised.  Even then, the eyeless (blind-eye or =
flats)
were still far and away the most popular styles, as they were well =
known,
easy to use and did not suffer the many defects found, even by that =
date, in
the finishing process of hook manufacture.

As to their use in the Rockies, I have yet to find any reference to the =
use
of an eyed hook, but certainly a pin or some bit of metal could have =
been
modified to make an eyed hook.  However, commercially, they do not =
appear on
any trade ledger or publication.  That being said, I would strongly =
argue
that the use of eyed hooks to reenact fur trade fishing would be =
inaccurate.
They were not being sold by any major producer during that era and there =
is
no reference to their use in the Rockies as noted above.

By the way, your reference to Kirby was of merit, as he really had the =
hook
market to himself for many years because of the high quality of his =
hooks.
But he did not advertise, ever, eyed hooks, and he was a master of =
stealing
a march on his competition, so I would respectfully suggest that had =
eyed
hooks been commonplace enough to the subject of  mass production or
widespread use, you would have seen it and heard it from him.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Paul


----- Original Message -----=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"><[e-mail]></A>
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"><[e-mail]></A>=

Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:54 PM


  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Can anyone document eyed =
fish hooks in the Rocky
Mountains?

I know that they were being manufactured in England
from 1667.

"The first period of great improvement came about the
mid-17th century, when Izaak Walton and Charles Cotton
were writing the classic The Compleat Angler and Col.
Robert Venables and Thomas Barker were describing new
tackle and methods of fishing.

About this time some unknown angler attached a wire
loop or ring at the tip end of the rod, which allowed
a running line, useful for both casting and playing a
hooked fish. Barker in 1667 mentions a salmon-fishing
line of 26 yards. What was obviously needed was a
means of taking up and holding such lengths, and this
led to the invention of the reel.

Experiments with material for the line led to the use
of a gut string (mentioned by the diarist Samuel Pepys
in 1667) and of a lute string (noted by Venables in
1676). The use of a landing hook, now called a gaff,
for lifting large hooked fish from the water was noted
by Barker in 1667.

Improved methods of fishhook making were devised in
the 1650s by Charles Kirby, who later invented the
Kirby bend, a distinctive shape of hook with offset
point that is still in common use worldwide. Kirby and
his fellow hook makers, who were also needle makers,
were dispersed from their shops near Old London Bridge
by the Plague and the Great Fire of London in 1666,
and they ultimately established factories in Redditch
around 1730."

<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://www.oldmaster85.com/history_of_fishing.htm">http://www.old=
master85.com/history_of_fishing.htm</A>

Sam


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://shopping.yahoo.com">http://shopping.yahoo.com</A>

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    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->


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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Caliber vs balls to the pound
Date: 20 Oct 2003 22:11:02 -0600

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Can someone give me a rough idea how balls to a pound relates to =
caliber?  Specifically, Sage refers to 40 balls to a pound as a minium =
for buffalo.  What would that relate to that I would know?

Wynn Ormond

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can someone give me a rough idea =
how balls to=20
a pound relates to caliber?  Specifically, Sage refers to 40 =
balls to=20
a pound as a minium for buffalo.  What would that relate to =
that I=20
would know?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn Ormond</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Caliber vs balls to the pound
Date: 20 Oct 2003 23:40:15 -0700

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Wynn,

The number of balls to the pound is what the gauge would be. There is a =
link on the web that makes the transition but it's late. Your talking =
about a 40 gauge gun. That sounds a bit light for buffalo in round ball =
but round balls work miracles.=20

Capt. L

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn Ormond=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 9:11 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Caliber vs balls to the pound


  Can someone give me a rough idea how balls to a pound relates to =
caliber?  Specifically, Sage refers to 40 balls to a pound as a minium =
for buffalo.  What would that relate to that I would know?

  Wynn Ormond

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The number of balls to the pound is =
what the gauge=20
would be. There is a link on the web that makes the transition but it's =
late.=20
Your talking about a 40 gauge gun. That sounds a bit light for buffalo =
in round=20
ball but round balls work miracles. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. L</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Wynn =
Ormond</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 20, 2003 =
9:11=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Caliber vs =
balls to=20
  the pound</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can someone give me a rough idea =
how balls=20
  to a pound relates to caliber?  Specifically, Sage refers to =
40=20
  balls to a pound as a minium for buffalo.  What would that =
relate to=20
  that I would know?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn Ormond</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Caliber vs balls to the pound
Date: 21 Oct 2003 03:35:55 EDT


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In a message dated 10/20/2003 9:16:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:


>  Specifically, Sage refers to 40 balls to a pound as a minium for buffalo.
> What would that relate to that I would know?

There's a gauge to caliber chart in the Dixie gunworks catalog.  40 gauge /
balls to the pound = .50 cal.  50/lb = .44 cal, 32/lb = 53 cal, 24/lb = .54
cal, & of course, 20/lb = .62 cal.  Keep in mind when you're pouring ball for a
.50, you're running .490 or .495 diameter so you'll get slightly more than 40
balls / lb.
Nauga Mok

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 10/20/2003 9:16:04 PM Pacific Dayli=
ght Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> Specifically, Sage refers to 4=
0 balls to a pound as a minium for buffalo.  What would that relate to=20=
that I would know?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUO=
TE><BR>
<BR>
There's a gauge to caliber chart in the Dixie gunworks catalog.  40 gau=
ge / balls to the pound =3D .50 cal.  50/lb =3D .44 cal, 32/lb =3D 53 c=
al, 24/lb =3D .54 cal, & of course, 20/lb =3D .62 cal.  Keep in min=
d when you're pouring ball for a .50, you're running .490 or .495 diameter s=
o you'll get slightly more than 40 balls / lb.  <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D4=
 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Mistral" LANG=3D"0">Nauga Mok</FONT></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dunc <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Caliber vs balls to the pound
Date: 21 Oct 2003 21:10:02 +1300

Wynn wrote:
>Can someone give me a rough idea how balls to a pound relates to=20
>caliber?  Specifically, Sage refers to 40 balls to a pound as a minium for=
=20
>buffalo.  What would that relate to that I would know?

Gauge is measured in the number of spherical lead balls of that size to the=
=20
pound, ie a 12 ga has 12 balls to the lb, the .54 shoots a =BDoz ball there=
=20
for is a 32 gauge.. Your 40 to the pound  ball would be a.488 ( realy .490)=
=20
cal. and weigh 175 grains this would be a shot from a .50 bore which should=
=20
be enough with a healthy dose of powder behind it. If you have an old=20
Dixie  Gunworks catalogue you will find a list of gauges, etc in the=20
reference section in the back

Cheers Dunc=20



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Knapp <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Boys make meat
Date: 21 Oct 2003 07:37:35 -0600

 After 10 days of hard desert sagebrush hunting both of my boys have made meat
with their smoke poles. Alan, 15, killed his mule deer with a Lyman GPR .54 cal
flintlock. Andy, 12, got his mule deer with a GabelaÆs Hawkins in .54 cal
percussion. So far I am still in the hunt. At least I can say, ôIÆve taught them
wellö.
 AlanÆs deer was a result of a stalk on a group of 8-9 deer with a couple of
nice bucks in it. We saw them cross over a ridge so we headed out of the draw we
were in and circled around to intercept them in the next draw. I send Alan on
his way while Andy and I drove the truck around about 3 miles to come in east of
the deer. After parking and hiking about ╜ mile we came over a ridge and spooked
3 deer, one of them a small buck. The big group we were after were never to be
seen again. The deer headed toward Alan who was by this time sitting in some rim
rock. The deer came almost right to him and did not know he was there. At about
90 yards, Alan rose up his flintlock and fired, making contact with the buck, a
4x2. He reloaded using paper cartridges and put it down with a neck shot. I sent
my number 2 son to Alan and then I went to get the pack goats to carry out meat.
When I arrived back to the kill site, Alan had the deer gutted and ready to skin
and quarter.
 Two days later Andy made meat for the first time. We had headed out before
daylight to get set up near a water hole and a draw that we knew deer liked to
use after watering. I set Andy up on the high end of the ridge, while I went on
down the ridge about 400 yards. As I approached my destination I spotted a small
buck coming up the ridge toward the water hole. I hunkered down in the rocks and
waited. In about 10 minutes this little buck came to within 22 yards of the
goats and me. I bleated a doe call a couple of times and the buck calmed right
down. He continued to feed and head to water. The boys spotted him and waited
till he crossed over the ridge top and then pursued him. I at the same time
followed him to water. We met up and hid in some bitterbrush and waited for him
to work his way back up the draw. Andy was shaking like a leaf as the deer came
into range, then abruptly turned away from him. Andy knew it was shoot now or
miss his opportunity. He rose up using his knee as a rest and took aim. His
first shot missed and fortunately the buck did not run off. His second shot
connected below a hind knee stopping the buck from running off. A third shot to
the neck put him down. AndyÆs first deer was a little 2x2, but a trophy in his
eyes as well as mine.
 Now it is my turn. Both boys have killed mule deer with muzzleloaders and I
have yet to do so. We will be returning for 3 more days of hunting this weekend.
Hopefully the weather will turn cooler as the deer have not started their winter
migration in great numbers yet.
Regards,
Dennis Knapp aka Sticher
Southern Idaho


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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Caliber vs balls to the pound
Date: 21 Oct 2003 09:19:10 -0700

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Wynn,

Nauga Mok shared the info I was too sleepy to look up. I'd say that .50 =
cal might be the lower limit for a buffalo unless your willing to get =
"real close". <G>

Capt. Lahti'

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: [e-mail]=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 12:35 AM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Caliber vs balls to the pound


  In a message dated 10/20/2003 9:16:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, =
[e-mail] writes:



    Specifically, Sage refers to 40 balls to a pound as a minium for =
buffalo.  What would that relate to that I would know?


  There's a gauge to caliber chart in the Dixie gunworks catalog.  40 =
gauge / balls to the pound =3D .50 cal.  50/lb =3D .44 cal, 32/lb =3D 53 =
cal, 24/lb =3D .54 cal, & of course, 20/lb =3D .62 cal.  Keep in mind =
when you're pouring ball for a .50, you're running .490 or .495 diameter =
so you'll get slightly more than 40 balls / lb. =20
  Nauga Mok
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nauga Mok shared the info I was too =
sleepy to look=20
up. I'd say that .50 cal might be the lower limit for a buffalo unless =
your=20
willing to get "real close". <G></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 21, 2003 =
12:35=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Caliber vs balls=20
  to the pound</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">In a message dated 10/20/2003 9:16:04 PM Pacific =
Daylight=20
  Time, <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=20
  writes:<BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">Specifically, Sage refers to 40 balls to a pound as a =
minium for=20
    buffalo.  What would that relate to that I would =
know?</FONT><FONT=20
    lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D3=20
    FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>There's a gauge to caliber =
chart in=20
  the Dixie gunworks catalog.  40 gauge / balls to the pound =3D =
.50=20
  cal.  50/lb =3D .44 cal, 32/lb =3D 53 cal, 24/lb =3D .54 cal, =
& of course,=20
  20/lb =3D .62 cal.  Keep in mind when you're pouring ball for a =
.50, you're=20
  running .490 or .495 diameter so you'll get slightly more than 40 =
balls /=20
  lb.  <BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
  face=3DMistral color=3D#000000 size=3D4 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT">Nauga =
Mok</FONT>=20
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail] (Jon Marinetti)
Subject: MtMan-List: What Caliber vs. Balls per Lb. [40 balls per pound]
Date: 21 Oct 2003 22:09:57 -0400 (EDT)

Wynn,

Pure Lead = .4097 lbs./cu.in.
Volume = 4/3 x Pi  x radius cubed.
 = 1/6 x Pi x diameter cubed.
 = 0.52359878 x diameter cubed.

1/40 /.4097 /.52359878 and taking cube root = 0.4884 inch diameter pure
lead ball, or roughly 50 caliber, rounding up.

Dixie Gun Works has such a table published every year in their General
Information section of their annual catalog.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boys make meat
Date: 22 Oct 2003 00:57:07 EDT


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Thanks for sharing your hunt with us Dennis.
 Sounds like some fine doings.
Tell Alan and Andy well done for me.
It was good meeting them at Green River Lake sounds like they be some good
hands to have around camp. It's always good to have someone around camp that can
shoot center and can bring in the meat.
Be looking forward to see you and them again sometime on down the trail.
Crazy Cyot



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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Thanks for sharing your h=
unt with us Dennis.
<BR> Sounds like some fine doings.
<BR>Tell Alan and Andy well done for me.=20
<BR>It was good meeting them at Green River Lake sounds like they be some go=
od hands to have around camp. It's always good to have someone around camp t=
hat can shoot center and can bring in the meat.=20
<BR>Be looking forward to see you and them again sometime on down the trail.
<BR>Crazy Cyot
<BR>   =20
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: off topic.....
Date: 22 Oct 2003 20:01:37 -0500

I just had a F****** ayrian nation, neo-nazi, fascist pig in my house.  My
stepdaughter unwittingly was keeping company with this creep and when he
stood in my living room tonight and began spouting that poisonous shit I
shut his ass down in what I will call a "raised voice".   I gave my daughter
the opportunity to send him away before I did it at the point of a .45 and
to her everlasting credit she did.  I told her that the next time won't be
nearly so harmonious as tonight.  The SOB offered to bring me some
literature so I could read the "truth".  I very impolitely declined the
offer.  My daughter was stunned at what this maggot was saying and told me
afterwards that she didn't know that such people still existed.  I told her
that they exist in entirely too many numbers and infect society like
gangrene.
I suppose my point is that these creeps inhabit every part of this country,
and you should tell your kids exactly what they are and what they stand for.
(Maybe a few photos of the nazi death camps would help.)
This beast is named Kelly and was polite to a fault.  He doesn't present
himself as a  goose stepping stormtrooper, although he does have a hard,
snaky look that I instantly disliked even before I knew what he was.  These
animals reach out their tentacles and snare our kids with their bile and
suck them in with their lies and before you realize it you have lost a kid.
My daughter told me that this creature recently picked up my 22 month old
grandchild and admired his perfect ayrian features.  She thought at the time
that it was an odd thing to say but didn't realize what he meant  until
tonight.  The very though makes my skin crawl.
Tell your kids.  Now.

Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays

ps:  I would like to hear from anybody who has an opposing view......offlist
if you please.



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic.....
Date: 23 Oct 2003 00:13:37 EDT


Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 10/22/2003 6:06:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:
Tell your kids.  Now.
Amen Brother. One thing traveling has taught me, sadly; hate is being
perpetuated in the children throughout the world.   Barney

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUTF-8 http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3Dutf-8">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 10/22/2003 6:06:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lanneyr=
[e-mail] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>Tell your kids.  Now.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>=
</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>Amen Brother. =
;One thing traveling has taught me, sadly; hate is being perp=
etuated in the children throughout the world.   Barney</FONT></STR=
ONG></DIV></BODY></HTML>


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From: "don secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic.....
Date: 23 Oct 2003 23:05:51 +0000

You won't get an opposing view from me Lanney. I agree with your sentiments
and I think you showed strong character by not hanging the little b-------d.
Don Secondine in the Ohio Country


>From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: "History List" <[e-mail]>, "AMM" <[e-mail]>,
>  "scalpdance" <[e-mail]>
>CC: "Danney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>,   "Kasey Weems"
><[e-mail]>,   "Tammy Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>,
>"Frank McAvoy" <[e-mail]>,   "Mary Jewell"
><[e-mail]>,   "John Moon" <[e-mail]>, "Randy
>Moon" <[e-mail]>,   "Ricky Moon" <[e-mail]>,
>"Andy Moon" <[e-mail]>,   "Tommy Moon" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: off topic.....
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:01:37 -0500
>
>I just had a F****** ayrian nation, neo-nazi, fascist pig in my house.  My
>stepdaughter unwittingly was keeping company with this creep and when he
>stood in my living room tonight and began spouting that poisonous shit I
>shut his ass down in what I will call a "raised voice".   I gave my
>daughter
>the opportunity to send him away before I did it at the point of a .45 and
>to her everlasting credit she did.  I told her that the next time won't be
>nearly so harmonious as tonight.  The SOB offered to bring me some
>literature so I could read the "truth".  I very impolitely declined the
>offer.  My daughter was stunned at what this maggot was saying and told me
>afterwards that she didn't know that such people still existed.  I told her
>that they exist in entirely too many numbers and infect society like
>gangrene.
>I suppose my point is that these creeps inhabit every part of this country,
>and you should tell your kids exactly what they are and what they stand
>for.
>(Maybe a few photos of the nazi death camps would help.)
>This beast is named Kelly and was polite to a fault.  He doesn't present
>himself as a  goose stepping stormtrooper, although he does have a hard,
>snaky look that I instantly disliked even before I knew what he was.  These
>animals reach out their tentacles and snare our kids with their bile and
>suck them in with their lies and before you realize it you have lost a kid.
>My daughter told me that this creature recently picked up my 22 month old
>grandchild and admired his perfect ayrian features.  She thought at the
>time
>that it was an odd thing to say but didn't realize what he meant  until
>tonight.  The very though makes my skin crawl.
>Tell your kids.  Now.
>
>Lanney Ratcliff
>[e-mail]
>______________________________________________________________
>Aux Aliments du Pays
>
>ps:  I would like to hear from anybody who has an opposing
>view......offlist
>if you please.
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

_________________________________________________________________
Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account has exceeded
its 2MB storage limit? Get Hotmail Extra Storage!
http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Mt Man List: Crow Moccasins
Date: 23 Oct 2003 22:19:41 EDT

Hello the Camp
I have a friend that is interested in purchasing moccasins made in a style
and decoration of the 1820-1830 Crow. Any suggestions? Reproductions of course.
Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt Man List: Crow Moccasins
Date: 23 Oct 2003 21:04:36 -0600

Yeah Mark, I suggest he contract a pair from Jill since she specializes
in Crow finery. Does your friend have lots of money? If not, he may have
to do like the majority of us, research them and make them himself.

Teton

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:19:41 EDT [e-mail] writes:
> Hello the Camp
> I have a friend that is interested in purchasing moccasins made in a
> style
> and decoration of the 1820-1830 Crow. Any suggestions? Reproductions
> of course.
> Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt Man List: Crow Moccasins
Date: 24 Oct 2003 00:42:49 EDT

Teton Todd you have any idea of cost? I suppose Crazy and Jill are watching
this site.
Not sure why he wants them. He has one fine fur trade library. I guess he
want to sit on his buffalo robe smoke his pipe and wear his moccasins. You may
have met him at Fort Benton at the symposium.
If Jill emails me I will put him in touch with her.
Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt Man List: Crow Moccasins
Date: 24 Oct 2003 01:17:51 EDT


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Mark
While Jill does do some fine bead and quill work She does not make our
moccasins,
 I do.
I could make his Mocs but I don't know if Jill will be up to taking on any
side work right now of decorating them. She is busy working on a new dress and
other things now. I can check around and see if any of Women of the Fur Trade
ladies would like to make them for him. I will forward your Email on to them
and see any are interested. I know Jean Heinbuch makes her living at doing this
kind of stuff but she is not on line I can give you her contact information if
none of the others want to make them.



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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Mark
<BR>While Jill does do some fine bead and quill work She does not make our m=
occasins,
<BR> I do.
<BR>I could make his Mocs but I don't know if Jill will be up to taking on a=
ny side work right now of decorating them. She is busy working on a new dres=
s and other things now. I can check around and see if any of Women of the Fu=
r Trade ladies would like to make them for him. I will forward your Email on=
 to them and see any are interested. I know Jean Heinbuch makes her living a=
t doing this kind of stuff but she is not on line I can give you her contact=
 information if none of the others want to make them.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"=
#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">  =20
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR> </FONT></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt Man List: Crow Moccasins
Date: 24 Oct 2003 01:27:21 EDT


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Sorry about that it got away from me before I was done.
Any way there be some ladies in their group that do some fine work Jean is
one of them. I'll check and see If any of them are interested but Jean might be
the best bet we'll see.
Like I said I can make the Mocs but I leave the decorating to Jill and the
ladies.
See down the trail
Crazy Cyot

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Sorry about that it got a=
way from me before I was done.
<BR>Any way there be some ladies in their group that do some fine work Jean=20=
is one of them. I'll check and see If any of them are interested but Jean mi=
ght be the best bet we'll see.
<BR>Like I said I can make the Mocs but I leave the decorating to Jill and t=
he ladies.
<BR>See down the trail
<BR>Crazy Cyot</FONT></HTML>

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From: "RICK TABOR" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic.....
Date: 25 Oct 2003 11:26:00 -0700

I was stationed in Spokane in the mid 80's. The local fish wrapper had
something to say about the Arian Nation nearly everyday. The funniest
incident I recall involves  Richard Butlers dog. It seems ol'Dick wanted to
raise a master race of K-9s so he had a pure bread german shepard sent from
Germany. Now, anybody from that part of the world knows that there is a lot
of porcupines up there. This Nazi pooch got into it with one. Richard Butler
being the attentive pet owner he was, took the dog to the vet. The story
would end here except a local citizen with a mean streak intervened. (I
don't know who he was, but I salute him!) This citizen calls the vet  and
says " Dr. So&so, This is Dick Butler. While your are taking the quills out
of my dogs face, just go ahead and neuter him."
  And so ended Richard Butlers dream of a master race. They say eunuch dog
looked real sad walking around the compound.

_________________________________________________________________
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6.0.  Try it now FREE!  http://msnmessenger-download.com


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boys make meat
Date: 25 Oct 2003 19:04:04 -0600 (MDT)

Dennis,
   I re-read your Gates of the Mountain canoe trip story and your deer
hunting story tonight back to back. Great stories! You guys are having
fun and living the life!

   Good luck down the trail,
             bb


>  After 10 days of hard desert sagebrush hunting both of my boys have made
> meat
> with their smoke poles. Alan, 15, killed his mule deer with a Lyman GPR
> .54 cal
> flintlock. Andy, 12, got his mule deer with a GabelaÆs Hawkins in .54 cal
> percussion. So far I am still in the hunt. At least I can say, ôIÆve
> taught them
> wellö.
>  AlanÆs deer was a result of a stalk on a group of 8-9 deer with a couple
> of
> nice bucks in it. We saw them cross over a ridge so we headed out of the
> draw we
> were in and circled around to intercept them in the next draw. I send Alan
> on
> his way while Andy and I drove the truck around about 3 miles to come in
> east of
> the deer. After parking and hiking about ╜ mile we came over a ridge and
> spooked
> 3 deer, one of them a small buck. The big group we were after were never
> to be
> seen again. The deer headed toward Alan who was by this time sitting in
> some rim
> rock. The deer came almost right to him and did not know he was there. At
> about
> 90 yards, Alan rose up his flintlock and fired, making contact with the
> buck, a
> 4x2. He reloaded using paper cartridges and put it down with a neck shot.
> I sent
> my number 2 son to Alan and then I went to get the pack goats to carry out
> meat.
> When I arrived back to the kill site, Alan had the deer gutted and ready
> to skin
> and quarter.
>  Two days later Andy made meat for the first time. We had headed out
> before
> daylight to get set up near a water hole and a draw that we knew deer
> liked to
> use after watering. I set Andy up on the high end of the ridge, while I
> went on
> down the ridge about 400 yards. As I approached my destination I spotted a
> small
> buck coming up the ridge toward the water hole. I hunkered down in the
> rocks and
> waited. In about 10 minutes this little buck came to within 22 yards of
> the
> goats and me. I bleated a doe call a couple of times and the buck calmed
> right
> down. He continued to feed and head to water. The boys spotted him and
> waited
> till he crossed over the ridge top and then pursued him. I at the same
> time
> followed him to water. We met up and hid in some bitterbrush and waited
> for him
> to work his way back up the draw. Andy was shaking like a leaf as the deer
> came
> into range, then abruptly turned away from him. Andy knew it was shoot now
> or
> miss his opportunity. He rose up using his knee as a rest and took aim.
> His
> first shot missed and fortunately the buck did not run off. His second
> shot
> connected below a hind knee stopping the buck from running off. A third
> shot to
> the neck put him down. AndyÆs first deer was a little 2x2, but a trophy in
> his
> eyes as well as mine.
>  Now it is my turn. Both boys have killed mule deer with muzzleloaders and
> I
> have yet to do so. We will be returning for 3 more days of hunting this
> weekend.
> Hopefully the weather will turn cooler as the deer have not started their
> winter
> migration in great numbers yet.
> Regards,
> Dennis Knapp aka Sticher
> Southern Idaho
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boys make meat
Date: 25 Oct 2003 19:04:04 -0600 (MDT)

Dennis,
   I re-read your Gates of the Mountain canoe trip story and your deer
hunting story tonight back to back. Great stories! You guys are having
fun and living the life!

   Good luck down the trail,
             bb


>  After 10 days of hard desert sagebrush hunting both of my boys have made
> meat
> with their smoke poles. Alan, 15, killed his mule deer with a Lyman GPR
> .54 cal
> flintlock. Andy, 12, got his mule deer with a GabelaÆs Hawkins in .54 cal
> percussion. So far I am still in the hunt. At least I can say, ôIÆve
> taught them
> wellö.
>  AlanÆs deer was a result of a stalk on a group of 8-9 deer with a couple
> of
> nice bucks in it. We saw them cross over a ridge so we headed out of the
> draw we
> were in and circled around to intercept them in the next draw. I send Alan
> on
> his way while Andy and I drove the truck around about 3 miles to come in
> east of
> the deer. After parking and hiking about ╜ mile we came over a ridge and
> spooked
> 3 deer, one of them a small buck. The big group we were after were never
> to be
> seen again. The deer headed toward Alan who was by this time sitting in
> some rim
> rock. The deer came almost right to him and did not know he was there. At
> about
> 90 yards, Alan rose up his flintlock and fired, making contact with the
> buck, a
> 4x2. He reloaded using paper cartridges and put it down with a neck shot.
> I sent
> my number 2 son to Alan and then I went to get the pack goats to carry out
> meat.
> When I arrived back to the kill site, Alan had the deer gutted and ready
> to skin
> and quarter.
>  Two days later Andy made meat for the first time. We had headed out
> before
> daylight to get set up near a water hole and a draw that we knew deer
> liked to
> use after watering. I set Andy up on the high end of the ridge, while I
> went on
> down the ridge about 400 yards. As I approached my destination I spotted a
> small
> buck coming up the ridge toward the water hole. I hunkered down in the
> rocks and
> waited. In about 10 minutes this little buck came to within 22 yards of
> the
> goats and me. I bleated a doe call a couple of times and the buck calmed
> right
> down. He continued to feed and head to water. The boys spotted him and
> waited
> till he crossed over the ridge top and then pursued him. I at the same
> time
> followed him to water. We met up and hid in some bitterbrush and waited
> for him
> to work his way back up the draw. Andy was shaking like a leaf as the deer
> came
> into range, then abruptly turned away from him. Andy knew it was shoot now
> or
> miss his opportunity. He rose up using his knee as a rest and took aim.
> His
> first shot missed and fortunately the buck did not run off. His second
> shot
> connected below a hind knee stopping the buck from running off. A third
> shot to
> the neck put him down. AndyÆs first deer was a little 2x2, but a trophy in
> his
> eyes as well as mine.
>  Now it is my turn. Both boys have killed mule deer with muzzleloaders and
> I
> have yet to do so. We will be returning for 3 more days of hunting this
> weekend.
> Hopefully the weather will turn cooler as the deer have not started their
> winter
> migration in great numbers yet.
> Regards,
> Dennis Knapp aka Sticher
> Southern Idaho
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boys make meat
Date: 26 Oct 2003 06:20:46 EST


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Hey Stitcher!  Crongratulate your boys for me!  Sorry I didn't make your
doin's Memorial Day, but No Load backed out on me at last minute & 'Pest didn't
think I aughta make that long run by my lonesome with the hours I'd been
working.  Hope ya make it down in Feb.


Nauga Mok

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Hey Stitcher!  Crongratulate your boys for me!&nb=
sp; Sorry I didn't make your doin's Memorial Day, but No Load backed out on=20=
me at last minute & 'Pest didn't think I aughta make that long run by my=
 lonesome with the hours I'd been working.  Hope ya make it down in Feb=
.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D4=
 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Mistral" LANG=3D"0">Nauga Mok</FONT></HTML>

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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Stories needed
Date: 26 Oct 2003 14:18:13 -0500

Hi, all y'all!!  (That's WV Southernese for Hi y'all )  Need some funny and
true (?) stories about Ronnyvous, BP shooting, etc... to add to my web page
(www.geocities.com/ronnyvous) ... Would sure appreciate any you can send
me...

Please send OFF list... :)  Kinda keeps me outta trouble. *grins*  I'll post
them on the web site and give full credit to the author (if they want it)...
or keep it totally anonymous... your choice...

Thanks :)

Regards,

Ad Miller


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From: "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stories needed
Date: 26 Oct 2003 14:26:13 -0800

I thought all y'all is Texas talk.     Dale Nelson

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Crow Mocs.
Date: 27 Oct 2003 00:42:24 EST


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Mark (Roadkill)
Get a load of me off list and I'll give you Jean's contact info. for the crow
mocs.
Crazy


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Mark (Roadkill)
<BR>Get a load of me off list and I'll give you Jean's contact info. for the=
 crow mocs.
<BR>Crazy
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic.....
Date: 27 Oct 2003 11:58:12 -0800 (PST)

Brother Lanney, you are so right!  Just a few years
ago there was a history teacher in Rock Springs, about
60 miles from here, that was teaching that the
Holocaust never happened.  Proper action was taken and
as far as I know the creature is still looking for
work.  Thanks to an alert press the public was warned
hopefully in time to stop this poison from spreading.
Thanks for warning others, Dog, Extreme North Texas
--- Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
wrote:
> I just had a F****** ayrian nation, neo-nazi,
> fascist pig in my house.  My
> stepdaughter unwittingly was keeping company with
> this creep and when he
> stood in my living room tonight and began spouting
> that poisonous shit I
> shut his ass down in what I will call a "raised
> voice".   I gave my daughter
> the opportunity to send him away before I did it at
> the point of a .45 and
> to her everlasting credit she did.  I told her that
> the next time won't be
> nearly so harmonious as tonight.  The SOB offered to
> bring me some
> literature so I could read the "truth".  I very
> impolitely declined the
> offer.  My daughter was stunned at what this maggot
> was saying and told me
> afterwards that she didn't know that such people
> still existed.  I told her
> that they exist in entirely too many numbers and
> infect society like
> gangrene.
> I suppose my point is that these creeps inhabit
> every part of this country,
> and you should tell your kids exactly what they are
> and what they stand for.
> (Maybe a few photos of the nazi death camps would
> help.)
> This beast is named Kelly and was polite to a fault.
>  He doesn't present
> himself as a  goose stepping stormtrooper, although
> he does have a hard,
> snaky look that I instantly disliked even before I
> knew what he was.  These
> animals reach out their tentacles and snare our kids
> with their bile and
> suck them in with their lies and before you realize
> it you have lost a kid.
> My daughter told me that this creature recently
> picked up my 22 month old
> grandchild and admired his perfect ayrian features.
> She thought at the time
> that it was an odd thing to say but didn't realize
> what he meant  until
> tonight.  The very though makes my skin crawl.
> Tell your kids.  Now.
>
> Lanney Ratcliff
> [e-mail]
>
______________________________________________________________
> Aux Aliments du Pays
>
> ps:  I would like to hear from anybody who has an
> opposing view......offlist
> if you please.
>
>
>
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From: Samuel Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic.....
Date: 27 Oct 2003 21:30:18 -0800 (PST)

You showed more restraint than I ever could. I had the
same thing happen about 12 years ago, ended up with
broken knuckles. But sure fdelt good.

Sam

--- Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
wrote:
> I just had a F****** ayrian nation, neo-nazi,
> fascist pig in my house.  My
> stepdaughter unwittingly was keeping company with
> this creep and when he
> stood in my living room tonight and began spouting
> that poisonous shit I
> shut his ass down in what I will call a "raised
> voice".   I gave my daughter
> the opportunity to send him away before I did it at
> the point of a .45 and
> to her everlasting credit she did.  I told her that
> the next time won't be
> nearly so harmonious as tonight.  The SOB offered to
> bring me some
> literature so I could read the "truth".  I very
> impolitely declined the
> offer.  My daughter was stunned at what this maggot
> was saying and told me
> afterwards that she didn't know that such people
> still existed.  I told her
> that they exist in entirely too many numbers and
> infect society like
> gangrene.
> I suppose my point is that these creeps inhabit
> every part of this country,
> and you should tell your kids exactly what they are
> and what they stand for.
> (Maybe a few photos of the nazi death camps would
> help.)
> This beast is named Kelly and was polite to a fault.
>  He doesn't present
> himself as a  goose stepping stormtrooper, although
> he does have a hard,
> snaky look that I instantly disliked even before I
> knew what he was.  These
> animals reach out their tentacles and snare our kids
> with their bile and
> suck them in with their lies and before you realize
> it you have lost a kid.
> My daughter told me that this creature recently
> picked up my 22 month old
> grandchild and admired his perfect ayrian features.
> She thought at the time
> that it was an odd thing to say but didn't realize
> what he meant  until
> tonight.  The very though makes my skin crawl.
> Tell your kids.  Now.
>
> Lanney Ratcliff
> [e-mail]
>
______________________________________________________________
> Aux Aliments du Pays
>
> ps:  I would like to hear from anybody who has an
> opposing view......offlist
> if you please.
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


__________________________________
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http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Indian Robe Dressing
Date: 31 Oct 2003 21:51:33 -0700 (MST)

Dear List,
   Trick or Treat!
   Does anyone know about or a good source about Indian women getting a
certain award or recognitions for dressing over 50 bison hides? I once
heard about them attaining some distinction over doing so many robes.
   Thanks in advance,
      Beaverboy

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