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Internet Message Format | 2003-09-30 | 622KB

From: Ole Jensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: test
Date: 03 Sep 2003 15:08:37 -0600

test?
Ole


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From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: test
Date: 03 Sep 2003 17:10:51 -0400

NOOOO!!!!! I forgot to study!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
D


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 5:08 PM


> test?
> Ole
>
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: A Flap over Flaps
Date: 03 Sep 2003 17:46:44 -0600 (MDT)

Dear List,
   I was just paging through my latest copy of the Muzzleloader magazine
Sept/Oct 2003  When a I saw a name familiar to me in the table of
contents. Robert Kisthart, could this be my good friend Bob Kisthart
from Fort Union!? Yes, it is!
   I thought you all might enjoy his article,"A Flap over Flaps" page 84,
back page. Bob is a great guy and a great National Park Ranger. He
regularly portrays Augustin Bourbonnais of Larpenteur's "Forty Years a
Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri" (pages 98-102)"The Blonde hair
trapper". He is known as either just Bob or Bourbonnais to all at the
Fort.
   Bob has a great sense of humor and always turns harmless, funny, modern
day jokes into classics by using historical Fort Union names as the
main characters. "Mr.Denig walks into a bar in St. Louis and orders a
whiskey.....".
   You all must get to Fort Union someday to visit those fine folks. I
know it's up in the middle of nowhere but you won't be sorry.
   Fort Union was the King of fur trade posts for quite a few years. A few
competitors hauled entire outfits clean up the Missouri to compete
against them, many took one look at Fort Union in all it's glory and
appoligized to Mr.McKenzie for showing up and offered to sell their
outfit to him whole. He bought most of them out, or ran them out of
business.
   "...the vastest and the finest of the forts that the Fur Company has
upon the Missouri".     Pierre DeSmet, 1840
                             bb


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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: test
Date: 04 Sep 2003 06:10:14 -0700 (PDT)

what?
Dog
--- Ole Jensen <[e-mail]> wrote:
> test?
> Ole
>
>
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__________________________________
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From: Ole Jensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: test
Date: 14 Sep 2003 13:43:23 -0600

on 9/4/03 7:10 AM, Ronald Schrotter at [e-mail] wrote:

> what?
> Dog
> --- Ole Jensen <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> test?
>> Ole
>>
>>
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>
> __________________________________
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> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
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Dog,
You passed the test.
Ole


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 05 Sep 2003 21:50:14 EDT


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Hello in the Camps
I have only been able to come up with one description of a type of saddle bag
used in fur trade.  While I have came across several accounts of Saddle Bags
being used Larpenteur so far is the only one that gives a description of what
his Saddle Bags looked like and were made of that I have found so far.
                          Forty Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri
my old saddle bags, made of a yard of brown muslin, sewed at both ends with a
slit in the middle,
This next account of Townsend's would suggest that Mr. Ashworth's Saddle Bags
were made of a light weight material like muslin or buckskin for them to be
cut up so easily. This is pure speculation on my part but I think they may have
been made on the same design as Larpenteur's. Which by the way are made the
same way as Indian Saddle Bags I have seen in Museums only they were made of
Buckskin.
Townsend's Across the Rockies to the Columbia
    Mr. Ashworth said that while riding about five miles behind the party,
(not being able to keep up with it on account of his having a worn out horse,)
he was attacked by about fifty of the Indians whom we passed earlier in the
day, dragged forcibly from his horse and thrown upon the ground. Here, some held
their knives to his throat to prevent his rising, and others robbed him of his
saddle bags, and all that they contained. While he was yet in this unpleasant
situation, Richardson came suddenly upon them, and the cowardly Indians
released their captive instantly, throwing the saddle bags and every thing else
upon the ground and flying like frightened antelopes over the plain. The only
real damage that Mr. Ashworth sustained, was the total loss of his saddle bags,
which were cut to pieces by the knives of the Indians, in order to abstract the
contents. These, however, we think he deserves to lose, inasmuch, as with all
our persuasion, we have never been able to induce him to carry a gun since we
left the country infested by the Blackfeet; and to-day, the very show of such
a weapon would undoubtedly have prevented the attack of which he complains.

Any way this is what I have been able to come up with on saddle bags used in
the Fur Trade. I was wondering if any one out there has come across a
description of saddle bags as we know them today being used in the Fur Trade. For now
I'll call them cow boy type Saddle Bags?

See ya on the Trail
Crazy Cyot

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Hello in the Camps
<BR>I have only been able to come up with one description of a type of saddl=
e bag used in fur trade.  While I have came across several accounts of=20=
Saddle Bags being used Larpenteur so far is the only one that gives a descri=
ption of what his Saddle Bags looked like and were made of that I have found=
 so far.<B>=20
<BR>             =
;            &nb=
sp;Forty Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri=20
<BR></B>my old saddle bags, made of a yard of brown muslin, sewed at both en=
ds with a slit in the middle,
<BR><P ALIGN=3DCENTER>This next account of Townsend's would suggest that Mr.=
 Ashworth's Saddle Bags were made of a light weight material like muslin or=20=
buckskin for them to be cut up so easily. This is pure speculation on my par=
t but I think they may have been made on the same design as Larpenteur's. Wh=
ich by the way are made the same way as Indian Saddle Bags I have seen in Mu=
seums only they were made of Buckskin.       &=
nbsp;            =
;            &nb=
sp;         <B>
<BR>Townsend's <I>Across the Rockies to the Columbia</I>
<BR>    </B>Mr. Ashworth said that while riding about five mi=
les behind the party, (not being able to keep up with it on account of his h=
aving a worn out horse,) he was attacked by about fifty of the Indians whom=20=
we passed earlier in the day, dragged forcibly from his horse and thrown upo=
n the ground. Here, some held their knives to his throat to prevent his risi=
ng, and others robbed him of his saddle bags, and all that they contained. W=
hile he was yet in this unpleasant situation, Richardson came suddenly upon=20=
them, and the cowardly Indians released their captive instantly, throwing th=
e saddle bags and every thing else upon the ground and flying like frightene=
d antelopes over the plain. The only real damage that Mr. Ashworth sustained=
, was the total loss of his saddle bags, which were cut to pieces by the kni=
ves of the Indians, in order to abstract the contents. These, however, we th=
ink he deserves to lose, inasmuch, as with all our persuasion, we have never=
 been able to induce him to carry a gun since we left the country infested b=
y the Blackfeet; and to-day, the very show of such a weapon would undoubtedl=
y have prevented the attack of which he complains.=20
<BR><P ALIGN=3DLEFT>
<BR>Any way this is what I have been able to come up with on saddle bags use=
d in the Fur Trade. I was wondering if any one out there has come across a d=
escription of saddle bags as we know them today being used in the Fur Trade.=
 For now I'll call them cow boy type Saddle Bags?
<BR>
<BR>See ya on the Trail
<BR>Crazy Cyot</P></P></FONT></HTML>

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From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 05 Sep 2003 21:04:19 -0600

Crazy,

You pose a good question. Again, this is one of those items which doesn't
seem to garner much mention.
My thinking on this and similar items which lack specific documentation
is to look at the time period immediately preceeding the period you are
researching. Would saddle bags have changed much from the late 1700's?
Perhaps. Maybe not much. What did Lewis and Clark use? Revolutionary War
era sallebags may be a mite early, how about War of 1812 style bags? I'll
bet these wouldn't be far off from ones a trapper leaving ole St Lou
mighta bought.

Todd

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 05 Sep 2003 23:49:03 EDT


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Todd
Ya brought up some good Ideas can you or any one else point me to some where
I could get some info Military saddle bags? I have a catalog from the American
Military Saddle Company out of California. The earliest they offer saddle
bags for is 1858 before that date they only offer pommel Holsters and shoe pouch
and Valises. This makes me wonder if they used saddle bags before this.
Granted a catalog ain't much of a resource to document anything. So if someone could
point me in the right direction I'd much appreciate it.
Crazy Cyot

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Todd
<BR>Ya brought up some good Ideas can you or any one else point me to some w=
here I could get some info Military saddle bags? I have a catalog from the A=
merican Military Saddle Company out of California. The earliest they offer s=
addle bags for is 1858 before that date they only offer pommel Holsters and=20=
shoe pouch and Valises. This makes me wonder if they used saddle bags before=
 this. Granted a catalog ain't much of a resource to document anything. So i=
f someone could point me in the right direction I'd much appreciate it.
<BR>Crazy Cyot</FONT></HTML>

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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 05 Sep 2003 21:11:49 -0700

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Hi Crazy,  There is some saddle bags in Nuemans Encyclopedia of the Rev War.   Proly not much different through the ages.   Randy


----- Original Message -----
Sent: 9/5/03 8:49:03 PM


Todd
Ya brought up some good Ideas can you or any one else point me to some where I could get some info Military saddle bags? I have a catalog from the American Military Saddle Company out of California. The earliest they offer saddle bags for is 1858 before that date they only offer pommel Holsters and shoe pouch and Valises. This makes me wonder if they used saddle bags before this. Granted a catalog ain't much of a resource to document anything. So if someone could point me in the right direction I'd much appreciate it.
Crazy Cyot
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Hi Crazy,  There is some saddle bags in Nuemans Encyclopedia of the Rev War.   Proly not much different through the ages.   Randy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=[e-mail] href="mailto:[e-mail]"></A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=[e-mail] href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 9/5/03 8:49:03 PM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Todd <BR>Ya brought up some good Ideas can you or any one else point me to some where I could get some info Military saddle bags? I have a catalog from the American Military Saddle Company out of California. The earliest they offer saddle bags for is 1858 before that date they only offer pommel Holsters and shoe pouch and Valises. This makes me wonder if they used saddle bags before this. Granted a catalog ain't much of a resource to document anything. So if someone could point me in the right direction I'd much appreciate it. <BR>Crazy Cyot</FONT> </FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 06 Sep 2003 09:33:02 EDT


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you might want to try the book by Randy Steffen titled "United States
MIlitary Saddles,1812-1943"

Frank

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">you might want to try the book by Randy Steffen titled=
 "United States MIlitary Saddles,1812-1943"<BR>
<BR>
Frank</FONT></HTML>

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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 10:42:24 -0600

Hello the Camp,

I'm interested in hearing how you that live in chigger country deal with the
bites of them nasty little critters.

Thanks,

Allen, in Fort Hall country



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 06 Sep 2003 13:11:47 EDT


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Thanks Randy and Frank
I'll keep my eye open for these books.
What has got me going on the Saddle Bags they are like shovels they do not
show up in the innovatory list very often and when they do there is only one or
two listed. I have not been able to find any shown in any of Millers pictures.
They do show up from time to time in Journals of the time period so they were
used but how often and what type were they. Were they made in the field or
something that was a personal item that was brought out with them that was not
replaced very often?
I'm trying to see if we can get some talk going on the subject cause saddle
bags seem to be one of the Items that is used widely today but that is not
clear on what type and how often they were used by the Mountaineers of old or
where they got them from.
I'm just trying to get the list going on something that has got me wondering.
Crazy Cyot

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Thanks Randy and Frank
<BR>I'll keep my eye open for these books.
<BR>What has got me going on the Saddle Bags they are like shovels they do n=
ot show up in the innovatory list very often and when they do there is only=20=
one or two listed. I have not been able to find any shown in any of Millers=20=
pictures. They do show up from time to time in Journals of the time period s=
o they were used but how often and what type were they. Were they made in th=
e field or something that was a personal item that was brought out with them=
 that was not replaced very often?
<BR>I'm trying to see if we can get some talk going on the subject cause sad=
dle bags seem to be one of the Items that is used widely today but that is n=
ot clear on what type and how often they were used by the Mountaineers of ol=
d or where they got them from.
<BR>I'm just trying to get the list going on something that has got me wonde=
ring.
<BR>Crazy Cyot</FONT></HTML>

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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 10:22:16 -0700

Hi Allen,    If you are suffering from chigger bites, I can relate.  I got
a good dose of them at the Missouri Eastern ('98).  I figured they'd just
go away after awhile.... well, that was my mistake.  I ended up with an
infection that affected my entire skin (which is considered an organ).
This infection led to dermatitis, and then exyma (sp?)(which still affects
me).  I can't tell you what to do, but I can recommend that you don't let
it go too far if it's still bothering you.  See a dermatologist, if
neccessary.  I think that those who grow up with them gain some tolerance
for those nasty critters, those who don't - react seriously.  I heard all
kinds of wive's tales, home cures, etc...  I wish I'd have gone to a Dr.
sooner than I did.  Don't let it go too long, if the bites aren't
improving.  My humble opinion based on miserable experience.  Yfab, Randy


> [Original Message]
> From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
> Hello the Camp,
>
> I'm interested in hearing how you that live in chigger country deal with
the
> bites of them nasty little critters.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Allen, in Fort Hall country
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



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From: "GOOD OLD JOE" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 12:30:59 -0500

Powdered sulphur sprinkled on sox and pants legs and blankets works pretty
good.
Joe Brott (Old Joe), Plattsmouth, Nebraska



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 06 Sep 2003 13:34:23 EDT


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The Continental Light Dragoon (late 1770s - early 1780s) used a "cowboy" type
saddle bag. It is pictured in "The Horse Soldier - 1776-1943" Vol. I, pages
10 & 14. (Randy Steffen, University of Oklahoma Press, Norman. 1977.)  The bag
has two straps that connect the two pouches. One picture shows the pouch with
three straps with buckles. The other shows only two straps with buckles. The
pouches look to be rather small in comparison to what you might typically think
of as "Cowboy" saddle bags.

Jim Hardee
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">The Continental Light Dragoon (late 1770s - early 1780=
s) used a "cowboy" type saddle bag. It is pictured in "The Horse Soldier - 1=
776-1943" Vol. I, pages 10 & 14. (Randy Steffen, University of Oklahoma=20=
Press, Norman. 1977.)  The bag has two straps that connect the two pouc=
hes. One picture shows the pouch with three straps with buckles. The other s=
hows only two straps with buckles. The pouches look to be rather small in co=
mparison to what you might typically think of as "Cowboy" saddle bags. <BR>
<BR>
Jim Hardee<BR>
P.O. Box 1228<BR>
Quincy, CA  95971</FONT></HTML>

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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 06 Sep 2003 12:23:52 -0600


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Cyot
An example that is similar only in that they went across the saddle like
saddlebage, is horse pistols.
They were arranged so one was on each side of the horse.  There are even
accounts of people hunting buffalo with these arrangements...only some
of them shot their horse out from under themselves.
Sparks

[e-mail] wrote:

> Thanks Randy and Frank
> I'll keep my eye open for these books.
> What has got me going on the Saddle Bags they are like shovels they do
> not show up in the innovatory list very often and when they do there
> is only one or two listed. I have not been able to find any shown in
> any of Millers pictures. They do show up from time to time in Journals
> of the time period so they were used but how often and what type were
> they. Were they made in the field or something that was a personal
> item that was brought out with them that was not replaced very often?
> I'm trying to see if we can get some talk going on the subject cause
> saddle bags seem to be one of the Items that is used widely today but
> that is not clear on what type and how often they were used by the
> Mountaineers of old or where they got them from.
> I'm just trying to get the list going on something that has got me
> wondering.
> Crazy Cyot



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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
Cyot<br>
An example that is similar only in that they went across the saddle like
saddlebage, is horse pistols.  <br>
They were arranged so one was on each side of the horse.  There are even
accounts of people hunting buffalo with these arrangements...only some of
them shot their horse out from under themselves.<br>
Sparks<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="[e-mail]"><font
 face="arial,helvetica"><font size="2">Thanks Randy and Frank <br>
I'll keep my eye open for these books. <br>
What has got me going on the Saddle Bags they are like shovels they do not
show up in the innovatory list very often and when they do there is only
one or two listed. I have not been able to find any shown in any of Millers
pictures. They do show up from time to time in Journals of the time period
so they were used but how often and what type were they. Were they made in
the field or something that was a personal item that was brought out with
them that was not replaced very often? <br>
I'm trying to see if we can get some talk going on the subject cause saddle
bags seem to be one of the Items that is used widely today but that is not
clear on what type and how often they were used by the Mountaineers of old
or where they got them from. <br>
I'm just trying to get the list going on something that has got me wondering.
  <br>
Crazy Cyot</font></font></blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 14:27:58 -0400

Alan.

 Clear fingernail polish on the bite will take care of it, as will a good ,
heavy coat of calamine, or benadril. Dermarest foam is real good....  The
wee bastards leave a tube in your skin and a protien that makes it itch, and
it will itch until you absorb it. In some cases like Randy's, you could get
an infection or allergic reaction.. Go to the Doc if they don't go away,
usually a week 10 days after exposure..  I am ate up, but they are going
away. The poison Oak was more bothersome./  Also, your clothes you wore
should be washed HOT and  the leather & wool blankets put in the freezer for
a few days, as they and the larvae can't survive temps below 40 or so...

D

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 12:42 PM


> Hello the Camp,
>
> I'm interested in hearing how you that live in chigger country deal with
the
> bites of them nasty little critters.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Allen, in Fort Hall country
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 14:37:16 -0400

Hardtack....
 That happpened to you cause you  are just soooo delicate...<BG>
YF&B
D


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:22 PM


> Hi Allen,    If you are suffering from chigger bites, I can relate.  I got
> a good dose of them at the Missouri Eastern ('98).  I figured they'd just
> go away after awhile.... well, that was my mistake.  I ended up with an
> infection that affected my entire skin (which is considered an organ).
> This infection led to dermatitis, and then exyma (sp?)(which still affects
> me).  I can't tell you what to do, but I can recommend that you don't let
> it go too far if it's still bothering you.  See a dermatologist, if
> neccessary.  I think that those who grow up with them gain some tolerance
> for those nasty critters, those who don't - react seriously.  I heard all
> kinds of wive's tales, home cures, etc...  I wish I'd have gone to a Dr.
> sooner than I did.  Don't let it go too long, if the bites aren't
> improving.  My humble opinion based on miserable experience.  Yfab, Randy
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
> > Hello the Camp,
> >
> > I'm interested in hearing how you that live in chigger country deal with
> the
> > bites of them nasty little critters.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Allen, in Fort Hall country
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 13:21:00 -0400

put penniroyal on your pants legs and you wont get them or take a bit of
flowers of sulfer ie a sulfer pill---

hawk

On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 10:42:24 -0600 Allen Hall <[e-mail]> writes:
> Hello the Camp,
>
> I'm interested in hearing how you that live in chigger country deal
> with the
> bites of them nasty little critters.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Allen, in Fort Hall country
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


"Hawk"
Michael Pierce                        Home of ""OLD GRIZZ" (c) Products &

#4 mill Hollow Rd.                   " The Arkansas Underhammer Rifles"
Eureka Springs Ark 72632           phone: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]   web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce


________________________________________________________________
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From: dnelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 06 Sep 2003 12:16:47 -0700

What you guys are calling "cowboy" saddle bags I don't think exist.
Check out Russel paintings, you see no saddle bags, but you do see
slickers tied on behind the cantle.  If you are carrying a slicker or
coat, then what might be carried in the saddle bag was rolled in it and
tied on.  Cowboys also kept personal stuff in their bed roll, carried on
pack animals or in the wagon.  Military were different, they had pommel
and cantle bags for ever it seems like, and there were Dragoons in the
far west early on, so I suppose it's possible a military saddle bag
could have been picked up and used  if a person figures he has to use
one like that.  But I expect that the mountain men were probably much
the same as cowboys.  Items were rolled in a capote or blanket, or
carried on the pack animal.  I don't even see pictures done by Catlin,
Miller, or Bodmer showing bags of traps hanging on saddle horses, but
they had to be carried somewhere - ie: pack animals.  Looking through
"They Saddled the West" by Rice and Vernam  ISBN O-87033-199-X is the
closest thing I found to a regular saddle bag.  It's on page 10 and is
on a Mexico-Texas Charro saddle circa 1840-1850.  These authors maintain
that the original American saddles were European design, flat seated,
hornless, light weight.  That style saddle ended at the Mississippi
River, and the saddle makers of St. Louis starting in 1812 with the
first shop, with competition arriving in 1816 and 1820 designed the
saddles they made on the Spanish/Mexican style.  The next book is "Man
Made Mobile - Early Saddles of Western North America" from Smithsonian
Studies in History and Technology number 39, Richard Ahlborn Editor.  In
the examples they show, there are some bags that resemble the pony
express type, but anything with a saddle bag is after 1850 up to 1900.
But the indian section on the book shows one set of saddle bags, from a
painting by Miller titled "Indian Warrior and His Squaw" from his field
observations in the Wyoming country in 1837.  The bags are behind her
legs, but in front of the high horn looking cantle.  The next book shows
those type bags even better.  "The Horse in Blackfoot Indian Culture" by
John C. Ewers, Smithsonian Institution Press shows this same type bag on
page 118.  It's a double saddlebag thrown over a woman's saddle for
transportation.  So she is sitting on the saddlebags to hold them on the
horse.  Charles Russel lived with the Blackfeet during the early
reservation period, and one of his paintings shows a woman riding a
horse that's pulling a travois, and she is using those type saddle bags
in that painting.  On page 117 Ewers also shows a plain open topped
whipped stitched double bag tied to the pommel of an Indian pack
saddle.  This bag is large enough for a buffalo calf skin bag made by
casing the skin of the entire calf to be carried in it.    These would
actually be beyond saddle bags and would be more like panniers or
leather pack bags.  He also shows two pommel bags, one a fringed
cylinder hung with a strap, and the other a rectangular case with a
rawhide strap hanger.  Ewers shows no saddlebags for Indian guys.  The
only other book I have that shows saddle bags is "The Mystic Warriors of
the Plains" by Mails.  Reading his book I caught him in at least one
mistake which causes me to mistrust everything unless I can satisfy
myself from other sources.  In this case on page  238 he shows a pair of
the same style double bags as shown in both the Smithsonian books.
These bags are beaded and fringed, and he says that unfolded they are 10
feet long.  If you don't have access to these books, I can scan the
photos and send them to you.  But I guess they don't work if you try and
send them to the list.  Just off the top of my head, it looks like
saddlebags are for the most part girl stuff.   Hopes this helps.
Dale Nelson
P.O. Box 251
Roseburg,  OR  97470

[e-mail] wrote:

> The Continental Light Dragoon (late 1770s - early 1780s) used a
> "cowboy" type saddle bag. It is pictured in "The Horse Soldier -
> 1776-1943" Vol. I, pages 10 & 14. (Randy Steffen, University of
> Oklahoma Press, Norman. 1977.)  The bag has two straps that connect
> the two pouches. One picture shows the pouch with three straps with
> buckles. The other shows only two straps with buckles. The pouches
> look to be rather small in comparison to what you might typically
> think of as "Cowboy" saddle bags.
>
> Jim Hardee
> P.O. Box 1228
> Quincy, CA  95971


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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 14:40:05 -0700

Hi D,    Yeah....  relatively delicate.... chiggers got the best of me,
only cause they are too small to wrestle....  <g>...   I left the midwest
at age 10, and left my natural defenses against tiny skin infesters, it
seems.  Actually I was too far north, even then, for chiggers (Minn., Ohio
and Ill.).  My Misery (Missouri) trip was my first aquaintence with those
little buggers. The Missouri boys gave me sulphur powder, but that didn't
keep 'em away for long.  It's been 5 years, and my system is finally
settling down.  It was a good time though in Misery.  I met some good
folks, and you <s>.  I got in some canoeing on the black river, which was
delightful.  Some of us are getting ready for a 5 day canoe trip on the
Willamette, in Oregon. (no chiggers there).  I hope your knee is well
healed.  My heel is tolerable.   Yfab, Randy


> [Original Message]
> From: Double Edge Forge <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Date: 9/6/03 11:37:18 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
>
> Hardtack....
>  That happpened to you cause you  are just soooo delicate...<BG>
> YF&B
> D
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:22 PM
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
>
>
> > Hi Allen,    If you are suffering from chigger bites, I can relate.  I
got
> > a good dose of them at the Missouri Eastern ('98).  I figured they'd
just
> > go away after awhile.... well, that was my mistake.  I ended up with an
> > infection that affected my entire skin (which is considered an organ).
> > This infection led to dermatitis, and then exyma (sp?)(which still
affects
> > me).  I can't tell you what to do, but I can recommend that you don't
let
> > it go too far if it's still bothering you.  See a dermatologist, if
> > neccessary.  I think that those who grow up with them gain some
tolerance
> > for those nasty critters, those who don't - react seriously.  I heard
all
> > kinds of wive's tales, home cures, etc...  I wish I'd have gone to a Dr.
> > sooner than I did.  Don't let it go too long, if the bites aren't
> > improving.  My humble opinion based on miserable experience.  Yfab,
Randy
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
> > > Hello the Camp,
> > >
> > > I'm interested in hearing how you that live in chigger country deal
with
> > the
> > > bites of them nasty little critters.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Allen, in Fort Hall country
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 06 Sep 2003 17:49:58 EDT


--part1_76.31b0f125.2c8bb086_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Dale

 You have made some very good points, I only called them cow boy saddle bags
so everyone would know the type that I was referring to.
Out of the all the books you have mentioned the only one I have not seen and
want to add to my collection is They Saddled the West by Rice and Vernam.
Which is a very good book from what I've heard.
I also agree with you about "The Mystic Warriors of the Plains" by Mails, Ten
foot long Saddle Bags! this makes me wonder also.
The only thing I would like to comment on is the Idea of rolling things up in
a rain slicker, capote or blanket or bed roll.
When it rains or gets cold then you will want to use these items then what
would you do with your stuff?
A pack horse would be the most likely. As for a bed roll all my bedding goes
under my saddle that is another thing that does not show up in any of the
early painting and sketches of mountain men is a bed rolls behind the saddle.
While Miller was one of the only artists to do pictures in the field of
Mountaineers, he was with Stewart and a supply caravan headed to Rendezvous and not
with a Trapping Brigade in the field trapping. So what he does show us my be
lacking in some details.
Saddle bags do show up from time to time in some Journals so they were used
by some men. But maybe not all and they may have been an item used by only the
green hands to the mountains. This I'm not sure of.  But when they were used I
would think they were for the most part made in the field and were of the
type that were used by the Indian Women and was the type described as being used
by Larpenteur.
I do think that saddle bags as we know them would have been something rare to
the mountains.
These are my thoughts.
Crazy Cyot



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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Dale</FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCK=
QUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0"> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Y</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMIL=
Y=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">ou have made some very good points=
, I only called them cow boy saddle bags so everyone would know the type tha=
t I was referring to.
<BR>Out of the all the books you have mentioned the only one I have not seen=
 and want to add to my collection is They Saddled the West by Rice and Verna=
m. Which is a very good book from what I've heard.
<BR>I also agree with you about "The Mystic Warriors of the Plains" by Mails=
, Ten foot long Saddle Bags! this makes me wonder also.=20
<BR>The only thing I would like to comment on is the Idea of rolling things=20=
up in a rain slicker, capote or blanket or bed roll.=20
<BR>When it rains or gets cold then you will want to use these items then wh=
at would you do with your stuff?
<BR>A pack horse would be the most likely. As for a bed roll all my bedding=20=
goes under my saddle that is another thing that does not show up in any of t=
he early painting and sketches of mountain men is a bed rolls behind the sad=
dle.
<BR>While Miller was one of the only artists to do pictures in the field of=20=
Mountaineers, he was with Stewart and a supply caravan headed to Rendezvous=20=
and not with a Trapping Brigade in the field trapping. So what he does show=20=
us my be lacking in some details.=20
<BR>Saddle bags do show up from time to time in some Journals so they were u=
sed by some men. But maybe not all and they may have been an item used by on=
ly the green hands to the mountains. This I'm not sure of.  But when th=
ey were used I would think they were for the most part made in the field and=
 were of the type that were used by the Indian Women and was the type descri=
bed as being used by Larpenteur.
<BR>I do think that saddle bags as we know them would have been something ra=
re to the mountains. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANS=
SERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">These are my thoughts.
<BR>Crazy Cyot
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dnelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 06 Sep 2003 16:13:02 -0700

[e-mail] wrote:

I also agree with you about "The Mystic Warriors of the Plains" by
Mails, Ten foot long Saddle Bags! this makes me wonder also.

I think that's 10 feet counting the fringe, there is real long fringe on
them.  What I didn't like was the section on shooting the bow.  For a
supposed expert he comes of a bit weak on that one.  As for what's
rolled up in the slicker, I used to get left over hitchhikes and bacon
and make bacon sandwiches out of them, then roll them in the slicker.
Around lunch time or when I got hungry I'd eat, and if I got cold or wet
before I got hungry I just ate them anyhow and wore the slicker.  It's
kind of hard to carry along anything much more serious than a lunch
rolled up in anything but a bed roll on the pack mule.
Dale Nelson


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dnelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 06 Sep 2003 16:15:15 -0700

I'm thinking my spell checker just changed hotcakes to hitchhikes.  Hot
cakes and bacon is the word.     Dale Nelson




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 19:54:19 -0400

Hey Randy

  We have chiggers here in Ohio, but I think that are more domesticated than
the ones in Ky or Mo. I think them are a different breed.  I think
EVERYTHING in MO in Aug bites, stings or chews,, Pure mean, no wonder the
James boys were cantanquorous..<G>
 I will let the "And You" crack pass, for now...
Would love to be on that trip with y'all.... In a stock building mode now
for shows, doins and such for the Fall season...
Knee is healing, sorta overdid it at the Eastern, but I ain't lettin it get
in my way too much if I can help it.  Glad yer heel is doin better....

D



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 5:40 PM


> Hi D,    Yeah....  relatively delicate.... chiggers got the best of me,
> only cause they are too small to wrestle....  <g>...   I left the midwest
> at age 10, and left my natural defenses against tiny skin infesters, it
> seems.  Actually I was too far north, even then, for chiggers (Minn., Ohio
> and Ill.).  My Misery (Missouri) trip was my first aquaintence with those
> little buggers. The Missouri boys gave me sulphur powder, but that didn't
> keep 'em away for long.  It's been 5 years, and my system is finally
> settling down.  It was a good time though in Misery.  I met some good
> folks, and you <s>.  I got in some canoeing on the black river, which was
> delightful.  Some of us are getting ready for a 5 day canoe trip on the
> Willamette, in Oregon. (no chiggers there).  I hope your knee is well
> healed.  My heel is tolerable.   Yfab, Randy


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 20:27:50 EDT


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Dennis
I think that is another reason all them men from down south and back east
headed out west for the Shining Mountains and didn't look back was to get shed of
all them bitin, stingin and chewin no seeums. At least with Grizz and
Blackfeet ya can see what ya got to contend with. (G)
Crazy

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Dennis
<BR>I think that is another reason all them men from down south and back eas=
t headed out west for the Shining Mountains and didn't look back was to get=20=
shed of all them bitin, stingin and chewin no seeums. At least with Grizz an=
d Blackfeet ya can see what ya got to contend with. (G)
<BR>Crazy</FONT></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: was Saddle Bags now Tapaderos
Date: 06 Sep 2003 21:36:37 EDT


--part1_22.3d6ea3a0.2c8be5a5_boundary
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I got this from Louis Lasater   one of the members of our party that is not
on this list but he brings up another good question on Tapaderos can any one
give us some help there.
Crazy



It also occurred to me that Mr. Ashworth's story would be a "point in case"
for the National Rifle Association.  More guns, less crime.  As with all of our
research, we should put what our research reveals to practical use today.

One question I have for one & all, which came up again during one of my
presentations at the Fort.  Tapaderos:  Monkey Face and Bat Wing.  Can anybody tell
me which one is, and which one is not ... period (pre 1840)?.

Hooah
Louis


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>I got this from Louis Las=
ater   one of the members of our party that is not on this list but he bring=
s up another good question on Tapaderos can any one give us some help there.
<BR>Crazy
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>It also occurred to me that Mr. Ashworth's story would be a "point in ca=
se" for the National Rifle Association.  More guns, less crime.  A=
s with all of our research, we should put what our research reveals to pract=
ical use today.
<BR>
<BR>One question I have for one & all, which came up again during one of=
 my presentations at the Fort.  Tapaderos:  Monkey Face and Bat Wi=
ng.  Can anybody tell me which one is, and which one is not ... period=20=
(pre 1840)?.
<BR>
<BR>Hooah
<BR>Louis
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 21:44:24 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C374C0.09A72E40
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Crazy.
 Gotta agree with ye, Sir.. I am of the belief that a grizz or a passel =
of pissed Blackfoot were childs play compared to the various wee =
critters that can bedevil a man and drive an animal insane here..
D


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: [e-mail]=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 8:27 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!


  Dennis=20
  I think that is another reason all them men from down south and back =
east headed out west for the Shining Mountains and didn't look back was =
to get shed of all them bitin, stingin and chewin no seeums. At least =
with Grizz and Blackfeet ya can see what ya got to contend with. (G)=20
  Crazy
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C374C0.09A72E40
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Crazy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Gotta agree with ye, Sir.. I am =
of the belief=20
that a grizz or a passel of pissed Blackfoot were childs play compared =
to the=20
various wee critters that can bedevil a man and drive an animal insane=20
here..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 06, =
2003 8:27=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Chiggers!</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Dennis =
<BR>I think that=20
  is another reason all them men from down south and back east headed =
out west=20
  for the Shining Mountains and didn't look back was to get shed of all =
them=20
  bitin, stingin and chewin no seeums. At least with Grizz and Blackfeet =
ya can=20
  see what ya got to contend with. (G) <BR>Crazy</FONT>=20
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 21:59:32 -0500

Allen
One thing.....the best thing..... to learn is to avoid their preferred
habitat......mainly tall grass and/or weeds, especially when it's about
waist high.   The little varmints crawl  up and leap off on you as you brush
past them, much like their cousins, the ticks do.  If high grass can't be
avoided protect your skin from attack by wearing shoes with tall socks.
Wear long sleeved shirts & keep you shirt tail tucked in  If you are in a
particularly infested region dust your feet and lower legs, waist band and
shirt cuffs with sulfur flour (or better, a spray repellent with as much
DEET as you can tolerate). However, short grass can also be thick with the
little sob's so avoid sitting directly on the ground if possible.  If you're
not sure if there are lots of chiggers present suspend a piece of black
paper the weeds and inspect it in good light.  You will see the little
critters.......they're red and vanishingly small.  Look closely for
movement.  If you suspect you have been dosed take a hot shower or bath as
quickly as possible using strong soap.  Most remedies that are used after
exposure have limited effect on the chiggers if you wait too long.  Chiggers
search for a spot to attack and that might take a while.  Like I said the
best way to avoid trouble is to keep out of tall grass and use an insect
repellent with the highest DEET percentage as possible.  However, strong
DEET products can bother some people so follow the directions found on the
package.    I have been told many time to dab grease on the bumps to
suffocate the critters but I've never had much luck doing that.   Scratching
can lead to skin problems so do you best to avoid doing that.......rubbing
is better.
good luck
Lanney in Texas.......chigger country
click here for more informed data and some really scary close-up photos
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/L-1223.html
http://lancaster.unl.edu/enviro/pest/factsheets/008-96.htm
http://www.conservation.state.mo.us/nathis/arthopo/chiggers/


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 11:42 AM


> Hello the Camp,
>
> I'm interested in hearing how you that live in chigger country deal with
the
> bites of them nasty little critters.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Allen, in Fort Hall country
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 06 Sep 2003 23:50:09 -0400

One thing NOT to do is to use the tick anf flea collars that you use on your
dog and cats. They are toxic to humans with extended exposure. When I was at
Camp Lejeune, NC in the 70s, we had some Marines use them. Had to medevac
them to the hospital. Sometimes pyrethrin sprays will work.... and the ads
say DEEP WOODS OFF will work at times. Also, try wearing Panty Hose... the
mesh is too small for chiggers and ticks to get thru.  Really... it works.
Learned it from an old USMC Gunny after I was eaten alive one time in the
field. He had nary a bite... showed me his secret...

Also... at
http://www.shoppalstores.com/matalin/index.cfm/fa/subcategories.main/parentc
at/4239/subcatid/9288 , they sell a DEET Buster inscet repellent. Not sure
if it works on ticks. It is all herbal with no nasty chemicals, etc... in
it. OK... I'll admit it... this is a commercial ad... my wife makes the
stuff, and we sell a TON of it at the various Voos and reenactments. We will
be at the NRLHF EPR in Ohio at the end of this month. Look us up :)

Regards,

Ad


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 07 Sep 2003 00:11:46 EDT


--part1_99.3ca49d66.2c8c0a02_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 9/6/2003 8:50:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> Also, try wearing Panty Hose... the
> mesh is too small for chiggers and ticks to get thru.

Yeah right..... Ad. A guy could git shot in my neighborhood wearin
pantyhose....

Magpie

--part1_99.3ca49d66.2c8c0a02_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 9/6/2003 8:50:43 PM Pacific Dayligh=
t Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Also, try wearing Panty Hose...=
 the<BR>
mesh is too small for chiggers and ticks to get thru.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Yeah right..... Ad. A guy could git shot in my neighborhood wearin pantyhose=
....<BR>
<BR>
Magpie</FONT></HTML>

--part1_99.3ca49d66.2c8c0a02_boundary--

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From: Rick Guglielmi <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rifles
Date: 07 Sep 2003 05:06:26 -0700

Hello to the camp, I'm coming in slow and easy looking for some information
to help me find the correct path .

I have basicly a 3 part question concering rifles of the 1800-1840
period.  I am looking to purchase a new rifle of the period and thought it
best to do some research before I make the commitment both in dollars and
rilfe style.

 From what I have been reading it appears that starting around 1822 or so
that trade rifles were fairly common with the trapping brigades in the
west, with the Lancaster or american rifle and the English rifle being the
most common.  Most of my information cmae from Hanson's "The Hawken Rifle:
it's place in History.  Several other sources I read appeared to have
stated the same information as Hanson.  Any thought on these trade rifles,
I am looking for the earlier style which is the reason I keyed on these two
types.  What about rifles carried west by the induvidual
trapper/mountaineer, was the Lancaster style fairly common, how about
Southern , iron mounted types.

Ok, now for part two:  I am a rather small man, 5'9". 130 lbs after a big
meal.  I try to spend most of my time forked over the back of a mule or if
I have to a horse.  From what I gather most of the trade rifles were made
with barrel lengths of between 40"-44".  If I have a rifle made I was
thinking of haveing the barrel shortened to be more convienant for me while
mounted.  My idea is to have it look as if it had been converted from its
original longer barrel length by a gunsmith.  Is there any documentation on
this being done, I have seen a few references to rifles with barrels
shortened but most were of later Hawkins.

And finally, if I do go with a shorter barrel, is there a point wre it will
start to affect the accuracy of the rifle, ie: 30", 32",34".

I look forward to hearing your comments.  By the way the question on saddle
bags is a one that is long overdue.  Since I do spend most of my time
mounted I have been also searching for the right type of gear.

Rick


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From: Ole Jensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags
Date: 17 Sep 2003 08:20:12 -0600

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3146631612_104856_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Crazy/ Randy
The best I can find is the Bag attatched to the Mochila as shown in Man made
Mobile, this method was used by the pony express. The European Saddle would
not accomidate the cowboy style saddle bag. The Tapadero was used by Mexican
Dragons in 1803 as seen on page 16 of Man made mobile.
Ole
Hi Crazy,  There is some saddle bags in Nuemans Encyclopedia of the Rev War.
Proly not much different through the ages.   Randy


----- Original Message -----
Sent: 9/5/03 8:49:03 PM

Todd
Ya brought up some good Ideas can you or any one else point me to some where
I could get some info Military saddle bags? I have a catalog from the
American Military Saddle Company out of California. The earliest they offer
saddle bags for is 1858 before that date they only offer pommel Holsters and
shoe pouch and Valises. This makes me wonder if they used saddle bags before
this. Granted a catalog ain't much of a resource to document anything. So if
someone could point me in the right direction I'd much appreciate it.
Crazy Cyot




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Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
Crazy/ Randy<BR>
The best I can find is the Bag attatched to the Mochila as shown in Man mad=
e Mobile, this method was used by the pony express. The European Saddle woul=
d not accomidate the cowboy style saddle bag. The Tapadero was used by Mexic=
an Dragons in 1803 as seen on page 16 of Man made mobile. <BR>
Ole<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Hi Crazy,  There is some saddle bags in Nue=
mans Encyclopedia of the Rev War.   Proly not much different throu=
gh the ages.   Randy<BR>
</FONT> <BR>
 <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> <BR>
<B>To: </B>[e-mail]<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> 9/5/03 8:49:03 PM <BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Saddle Bags<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">Todd <BR>
Ya brought up some good Ideas can you or any one else point me to some wher=
e I could get some info Military saddle bags? I have a catalog from the Amer=
ican Military Saddle Company out of California. The earliest they offer sadd=
le bags for is 1858 before that date they only offer pommel Holsters and sho=
e pouch and Valises. This makes me wonder if they used saddle bags before th=
is. Granted a catalog ain't much of a resource to document anything. So if s=
omeone could point me in the right direction I'd much appreciate it. <BR>
Crazy Cyot <BR>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>


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From: dnelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: was Saddle Bags now Tapaderos
Date: 07 Sep 2003 09:30:19 -0700

They Saddled the West page 3 shows a "Mexican-Santa Fe Type, Skirted,
ca. 1800 saddle.  I suppose I would say it has hooded stirrups, not
taps, on account of to me taps have the long leather what ever you
call'em things hanging down.  This just covers the toe, there is nothing
extra.  Again picture upon request.  On page 8 the pony express saddle
has taps that look like what I know taps to look like.  It's dated
1860.  The next Taps are on page 20 and it's a Texas saddle ca. 1870,
and they aren't as large as the California ones that I'm familiar with.
The early Mexico-California saddle on page 25 has big round things that
cover the side of the stirrups, but no toe protection from the looks of
it.  Page 54 has a California saddle ca. 1895 that sports taps like I've
seen so often.  And the 1866 McClellan army saddle of 1866 has hooded
stirrups.  From what I see in this book, it looks like the closer you
get to 1900 the more leather tapaderos used up and the fancier they got.

Dale Nelson
Roseburg, OR


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 07 Sep 2003 12:35:08 -0400

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<LOL> I know what you mean... BUT... as my Daddy told me... if it's =
stupid, and it works... it's not stuppid... *grins*  Just gotta be =
careful who sees you wearing them... ;^)

Ad
    Also, try wearing Panty Hose... the
    mesh is too small for chiggers and ticks to get thru.


  Yeah right..... Ad. A guy could git shot in my neighborhood wearin =
pantyhose....

  Magpie
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C3753C.78CAF3C0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><LOL> I know what you mean... BUT... as my =
Daddy=20
told me... if it's stupid, and it works... it's not stuppid... =
*grins* =20
Just gotta be careful who sees you wearing them... ;^)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Ad</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT=20
  face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">Also, try wearing Panty Hose... the<BR>mesh is too small =
for=20
    chiggers and ticks to get thru.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Yeah right..... =
Ad. A guy=20
  could git shot in my neighborhood wearin =
pantyhose....<BR><BR>Magpie</FONT>=20
  </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 07 Sep 2003 11:41:47 -0400

ad wife stuff works I got some for my wife at the alifi last year and she
just got around to using it after we moved back to ark---

hawk

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 23:50:09 -0400 "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> One thing NOT to do is to use the tick anf flea collars that you use
> on your
> dog and cats. They are toxic to humans with extended exposure. When
> I was at
> Camp Lejeune, NC in the 70s, we had some Marines use them. Had to
> medevac
> them to the hospital. Sometimes pyrethrin sprays will work.... and
> the ads
> say DEEP WOODS OFF will work at times. Also, try wearing Panty
> Hose... the
> mesh is too small for chiggers and ticks to get thru.  Really... it
> works.
> Learned it from an old USMC Gunny after I was eaten alive one time
> in the
> field. He had nary a bite... showed me his secret...
>
> Also... at
>
http://www.shoppalstores.com/matalin/index.cfm/fa/subcategories.main/pare
ntc
> at/4239/subcatid/9288 , they sell a DEET Buster inscet repellent.
> Not sure
> if it works on ticks. It is all herbal with no nasty chemicals,
> etc... in
> it. OK... I'll admit it... this is a commercial ad... my wife makes
> the
> stuff, and we sell a TON of it at the various Voos and reenactments.
> We will
> be at the NRLHF EPR in Ohio at the end of this month. Look us up :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Ad
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


"Hawk"
Michael Pierce                        Home of ""OLD GRIZZ" (c) Products &

#4 mill Hollow Rd.                   " The Arkansas Underhammer Rifles"
Eureka Springs Ark 72632           phone: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]   web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce


________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: 2003 Fur Trade Symposium
Date: 07 Sep 2003 11:54:36 -0600 (MDT)

Dear List,
   The 2003 Fur Trade Symposium is only two weeks away! You still have
time to come to it and see historical Fort Benton, Montana.
   Mike will be there with his keelboat. You can paddle right from the
Fort down the White Cliffs section of the Upper Missouri! Or you can
float from Carter or Morony Dam to Fort Benton. They rent everything
there in Fort Benton so you wouldn't have to haul your canoe all this
way. Sounds like some cooler fall weather is coming so maybe we will be
able to have campfires again soon.
   If you make it be sure to look me up, I'll be one of the keelboat
swabbies.  Beaverboy

       http://www.fortbenton.com/symposium/registration.htm

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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 07 Sep 2003 11:30:07 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Magpie,

Your not supposed to wear the skirt and heels too. Geez!

Capt. L

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: [e-mail]=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 9:11 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!


  In a message dated 9/6/2003 8:50:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, =
[e-mail] writes:


    Also, try wearing Panty Hose... the
    mesh is too small for chiggers and ticks to get thru.


  Yeah right..... Ad. A guy could git shot in my neighborhood wearin =
pantyhose....

  Magpie
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C37533.63A9A530
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Magpie,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Your not supposed to wear the skirt and =
heels too.=20
Geez!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. L</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 06, =
2003 9:11=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Chiggers!</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">In a message dated 9/6/2003 8:50:43 PM Pacific =
Daylight=20
  Time, <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =

  writes:<BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">Also, try wearing Panty Hose... the<BR>mesh is too small =
for=20
    chiggers and ticks to get thru.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Yeah right..... =
Ad. A guy=20
  could git shot in my neighborhood wearin =
pantyhose....<BR><BR>Magpie</FONT>=20
  </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles
Date: 07 Sep 2003 14:16:17 -0700


>  From what I have been reading it appears that starting around 1822 or so
> that trade rifles were fairly common with the trapping brigades in the
> west, with the Lancaster or american rifle and the English rifle being the
> most common.

Rick,

Not that I am the list expert but I'll say your on the right track.
Lancaster's, JJ Henrys, NW trade guns, anything else that was in use by the
common man prior to your time frame are ok. Full stock and flint at that
time. Many young men signed on for the fur trade who did not have a rifle
and were issued or sold a rifle from company stock as needed.

  What about rifles carried west by the individual
> trapper/mountaineer, was the Lancaster style fairly common, how about
> Southern , iron mounted types.

I'm not sure but what the "Southern Mt. Rifle" you mention isn't a later
rifle but I'm thinking there were more hired hands than experienced hunters
going west around then. A trade rifle as Hanson and others mention would be
on the mark in any case. A late 1700's long gun would too and it fits an
earlier time period if your a cross dresser. <G>



  From what I gather most of the trade rifles were made
> with barrel lengths of between 40"-44".  If I have a rifle made I was
> thinking of having the barrel shortened to be more convenient for me while
> mounted.  My idea is to have it look as if it had been converted from its
> original longer barrel length by a gunsmith.

I don't know that that was done or felt necessary by mounted men or
vertically challenged men. The long rifle was carried through eastern forest
by Boone and his contemporaries so why not a relatively long trade rifle
going west? Gun length did shorten towards the end of the Rendezvous period
into the pioneer and miner eras but actually not all that much.

 Is there any documentation on
> this being done, I have seen a few references to rifles with barrels
> shortened but most were of later Hawkins.

I think you answered your own question there.

>
> And finally, if I do go with a shorter barrel, is there a point where it
will
> start to affect the accuracy of the rifle, ie: 30", 32",34".

Not in a practical sense. Rifles as short as 25" can be very accurate. Just
not very pretty or authentic to the period. There is a bit of loss of power
from the powder and you loose off hand stability with a shorter gun and a
shorter sight radius. I've got a 32" half stock flinter that I just moved
the rear sight forward about 6" so I could see both sights clear along with
the target and now there ain't much distance between the front and rear.
That's a consideration if you like traditional sights and have slowly ageing
eyes like the rest of us.

Hope this was of some help Rick. Kinda quiet on the list at the moment.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 07 Sep 2003 16:24:43 -0600 (MDT)

Dear List,
   I know this is kind of off of the MM subject(though it does involve
trapping) but I need help keeping pigeons off of our work shop.
   I've trapped over 25 up there so far in a bobbin trap which is fine and
dandy but I want to keep them from roosting there in the first place.
   Does anyone know how to keep pigeons from roosting where they're not
wanted? We have two plastic owls up there now and they roost next to
them!
We can't use pointy wire like they do on statues as it is a 20,000 square
foot roof. I can't shoot them on the roof like I do inside the shop as I
don't think it is a good idea to be on a rooftop,in town, with a gun
during Code Orange! I heard rubber snakes will scare them away? Any ideas
would be greatly appreciated.
   Between the 25+ I've trapped on the roof and the countless ones I've
shot inside the shop I should be called Pigeonboy!
     Thanks a ton in advance.

 PS  And to any pigeon lovers out there, I'm sorry but after you crawl
around a pigeon infested area and see what a disgusting mess they make,
you kind of loose your love for them. And don't tell me to eat them, I
have when I was younger, but after crawling around in thier piles of crap
the last thing you think about is cooking one!

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 07 Sep 2003 17:52:15 -0500

That's easy, Pigeon Boy, locate all the Cajuns in your area, tell 'em about
all those pigeons and tell 'em that the season is closed.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 5:24 PM


> Dear List,
>    I know this is kind of off of the MM subject(though it does involve
> trapping) but I need help keeping pigeons off of our work shop.
>    I've trapped over 25 up there so far in a bobbin trap which is fine and
> dandy but I want to keep them from roosting there in the first place.
>    Does anyone know how to keep pigeons from roosting where they're not
> wanted? We have two plastic owls up there now and they roost next to
> them!
> We can't use pointy wire like they do on statues as it is a 20,000 square
> foot roof. I can't shoot them on the roof like I do inside the shop as I
> don't think it is a good idea to be on a rooftop,in town, with a gun
> during Code Orange! I heard rubber snakes will scare them away? Any ideas
> would be greatly appreciated.
>    Between the 25+ I've trapped on the roof and the countless ones I've
> shot inside the shop I should be called Pigeonboy!
>      Thanks a ton in advance.
>
>  PS  And to any pigeon lovers out there, I'm sorry but after you crawl
> around a pigeon infested area and see what a disgusting mess they make,
> you kind of loose your love for them. And don't tell me to eat them, I
> have when I was younger, but after crawling around in thier piles of crap
> the last thing you think about is cooking one!
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dnelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 07 Sep 2003 16:10:45 -0700

How about feeding them decon.  The mice die.    Dale Nelson

[e-mail] wrote:

> Dear List,
>    I know this is kind of off of the MM subject(though it does involve
> trapping) but I need help keeping pigeons off of our work shop.
>    I've trapped over 25 up there so far in a bobbin trap which is fine and
> dandy but I want to keep them from roosting there in the first place.
>    Does anyone know how to keep pigeons from roosting where they're not
> wanted? We have two plastic owls up there now and they roost next to
> them!
> We can't use pointy wire like they do on statues as it is a 20,000 square
> foot roof. I can't shoot them on the roof like I do inside the shop as I
> don't think it is a good idea to be on a rooftop,in town, with a gun
> during Code Orange! I heard rubber snakes will scare them away? Any ideas
> would be greatly appreciated.
>    Between the 25+ I've trapped on the roof and the countless ones I've
> shot inside the shop I should be called Pigeonboy!
>      Thanks a ton in advance.
>
>  PS  And to any pigeon lovers out there, I'm sorry but after you crawl
> around a pigeon infested area and see what a disgusting mess they make,
> you kind of loose your love for them. And don't tell me to eat them, I
> have when I was younger, but after crawling around in thier piles of crap
> the last thing you think about is cooking one!
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 07 Sep 2003 17:20:56 -0600 (MDT)

  I forgot to mention that I also tried poison. They ate some but also got
to were they ate only the crack corn and left the poison. Even the green
tainted poison grain was left and all the corn was gone.
  I'm trying to keep them from landing in the first place.


> How about feeding them decon.  The mice die.    Dale Nelson
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>    I know this is kind of off of the MM subject(though it does involve
>> trapping) but I need help keeping pigeons off of our work shop.
>>    I've trapped over 25 up there so far in a bobbin trap which is fine
>> and
>> dandy but I want to keep them from roosting there in the first place.
>>    Does anyone know how to keep pigeons from roosting where they're not
>> wanted? We have two plastic owls up there now and they roost next to
>> them!
>> We can't use pointy wire like they do on statues as it is a 20,000
>> square
>> foot roof. I can't shoot them on the roof like I do inside the shop as I
>> don't think it is a good idea to be on a rooftop,in town, with a gun
>> during Code Orange! I heard rubber snakes will scare them away? Any
>> ideas
>> would be greatly appreciated.
>>    Between the 25+ I've trapped on the roof and the countless ones I've
>> shot inside the shop I should be called Pigeonboy!
>>      Thanks a ton in advance.
>>
>>  PS  And to any pigeon lovers out there, I'm sorry but after you crawl
>> around a pigeon infested area and see what a disgusting mess they make,
>> you kind of loose your love for them. And don't tell me to eat them, I
>> have when I was younger, but after crawling around in thier piles of
>> crap
>> the last thing you think about is cooking one!
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 07 Sep 2003 17:22:58 -0600 (MDT)

Thats a good one! No Cajuns in our country, maybe I'll tell the Hutterites
that!

> That's easy, Pigeon Boy, locate all the Cajuns in your area, tell 'em
> about
> all those pigeons and tell 'em that the season is closed.
> Lanney
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 5:24 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
>
>
>> Dear List,
>>    I know this is kind of off of the MM subject(though it does involve
>> trapping) but I need help keeping pigeons off of our work shop.
>>    I've trapped over 25 up there so far in a bobbin trap which is fine
>> and
>> dandy but I want to keep them from roosting there in the first place.
>>    Does anyone know how to keep pigeons from roosting where they're not
>> wanted? We have two plastic owls up there now and they roost next to
>> them!
>> We can't use pointy wire like they do on statues as it is a 20,000
>> square
>> foot roof. I can't shoot them on the roof like I do inside the shop as I
>> don't think it is a good idea to be on a rooftop,in town, with a gun
>> during Code Orange! I heard rubber snakes will scare them away? Any
>> ideas
>> would be greatly appreciated.
>>    Between the 25+ I've trapped on the roof and the countless ones I've
>> shot inside the shop I should be called Pigeonboy!
>>      Thanks a ton in advance.
>>
>>  PS  And to any pigeon lovers out there, I'm sorry but after you crawl
>> around a pigeon infested area and see what a disgusting mess they make,
>> you kind of loose your love for them. And don't tell me to eat them, I
>> have when I was younger, but after crawling around in thier piles of
>> crap
>> the last thing you think about is cooking one!
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 07 Sep 2003 18:31:00 -0500

OK, I'll ask.  What is a Hutterite???  Sounds like some kind of obscure
mineral.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 6:22 PM


> Thats a good one! No Cajuns in our country, maybe I'll tell the Hutterites
> that!
>
> > That's easy, Pigeon Boy, locate all the Cajuns in your area, tell 'em
> > about
> > all those pigeons and tell 'em that the season is closed.
> > Lanney
>



----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 07 Sep 2003 17:30:21 -0600

Beaverboy,
My sister had an apartment in Seattle where the delightful rock doves
took to nexting on her balcony,  as well as defecating.  She had an
owl...same experience as yours.  She had a snake like you are
considering, they liked the snake as much as the owl.  They didn't do
pointy things on the balcony, but they did try using a big "herring
dodger" as centerpiece in a windchime...I think they enjoyed looking at
their reflection.  I know that won't help you find an answer, but it
might certainly same you some time and effort.  By the way, a herring
dodger is a big flasher rigged in front of a cut herring for use in
trolling for salmon.  It is shiney metal about 3 inches wide and 10
inches long.
Sparks

[e-mail] wrote:

>Dear List,
>   I know this is kind of off of the MM subject(though it does involve
>trapping) but I need help keeping pigeons off of our work shop.
>   I've trapped over 25 up there so far in a bobbin trap which is fine and
>dandy but I want to keep them from roosting there in the first place.
>   Does anyone know how to keep pigeons from roosting where they're not
>wanted? We have two plastic owls up there now and they roost next to
>them!
>We can't use pointy wire like they do on statues as it is a 20,000 square
>foot roof. I can't shoot them on the roof like I do inside the shop as I
>don't think it is a good idea to be on a rooftop,in town, with a gun
>during Code Orange! I heard rubber snakes will scare them away? Any ideas
>would be greatly appreciated.
>   Between the 25+ I've trapped on the roof and the countless ones I've
>shot inside the shop I should be called Pigeonboy!
>     Thanks a ton in advance.
>
> PS  And to any pigeon lovers out there, I'm sorry but after you crawl
>around a pigeon infested area and see what a disgusting mess they make,
>you kind of loose your love for them. And don't tell me to eat them, I
>have when I was younger, but after crawling around in thier piles of crap
>the last thing you think about is cooking one!
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 07 Sep 2003 18:34:45 -0500

Never mind........down here we just call them Mennonites.  There are more
Mennonites in central Texas than you might imagine.  They come down here and
operate dairies, etc, work hard and save their money to by property back
home.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 6:31 PM


> OK, I'll ask.  What is a Hutterite???  Sounds like some kind of obscure
> mineral.
> Lanney
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 6:22 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
>
>
> > Thats a good one! No Cajuns in our country, maybe I'll tell the
Hutterites
> > that!
> >
> > > That's easy, Pigeon Boy, locate all the Cajuns in your area, tell 'em
> > > about
> > > all those pigeons and tell 'em that the season is closed.
> > > Lanney
> >
>



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles
Date: 07 Sep 2003 17:39:05 -0600


--------------020503080108090502010805
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have seen some of the short rifles, convenient for using from a
horse...also heavy enough you wouldn't want one unless the horse was
carrying it!  I think thewe were plains percussion rifles (1845-55).
 One I remember was .50 caliber or so, but had been bored out and the
barrel 'relined' because the old one was shot...barrel was octagonal,
but must have measured AT LEAST two inches across the flats at the
muzzle (I don't even think it was swamped).  ...and it was short, maybe
not even belly-button high.  Accurate?  He was the second person in a
round to split a roundball on an ax blade at 25 yards...I was first and
was also shooting an original.
Sparks

roger lahti wrote:

>> From what I have been reading it appears that starting around 1822 or so
>>that trade rifles were fairly common with the trapping brigades in the
>>west, with the Lancaster or american rifle and the English rifle being the
>>most common.
>>
>>
>
>Rick,
>
>Not that I am the list expert but I'll say your on the right track.
>Lancaster's, JJ Henrys, NW trade guns, anything else that was in use by the
>common man prior to your time frame are ok. Full stock and flint at that
>time. Many young men signed on for the fur trade who did not have a rifle
>and were issued or sold a rifle from company stock as needed.
>
>  What about rifles carried west by the individual
>
>
>>trapper/mountaineer, was the Lancaster style fairly common, how about
>>Southern , iron mounted types.
>>
>>
>
>I'm not sure but what the "Southern Mt. Rifle" you mention isn't a later
>rifle but I'm thinking there were more hired hands than experienced hunters
>going west around then. A trade rifle as Hanson and others mention would be
>on the mark in any case. A late 1700's long gun would too and it fits an
>earlier time period if your a cross dresser. <G>
>
>
>
>  From what I gather most of the trade rifles were made
>
>
>>with barrel lengths of between 40"-44".  If I have a rifle made I was
>>thinking of having the barrel shortened to be more convenient for me while
>>mounted.  My idea is to have it look as if it had been converted from its
>>original longer barrel length by a gunsmith.
>>
>>
>
>I don't know that that was done or felt necessary by mounted men or
>vertically challenged men. The long rifle was carried through eastern forest
>by Boone and his contemporaries so why not a relatively long trade rifle
>going west? Gun length did shorten towards the end of the Rendezvous period
>into the pioneer and miner eras but actually not all that much.
>
> Is there any documentation on
>
>
>>this being done, I have seen a few references to rifles with barrels
>>shortened but most were of later Hawkins.
>>
>>
>
>I think you answered your own question there.
>
>
>
>>And finally, if I do go with a shorter barrel, is there a point where it
>>
>>
>will
>
>
>>start to affect the accuracy of the rifle, ie: 30", 32",34".
>>
>>
>
>Not in a practical sense. Rifles as short as 25" can be very accurate. Just
>not very pretty or authentic to the period. There is a bit of loss of power
>from the powder and you loose off hand stability with a shorter gun and a
>shorter sight radius. I've got a 32" half stock flinter that I just moved
>the rear sight forward about 6" so I could see both sights clear along with
>the target and now there ain't much distance between the front and rear.
>That's a consideration if you like traditional sights and have slowly ageing
>eyes like the rest of us.
>
>Hope this was of some help Rick. Kinda quiet on the list at the moment.
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>


--------------020503080108090502010805
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
I have seen some of the short rifles, convenient for using from a horse...also
heavy enough you wouldn't want one unless the horse was carrying it!  I think
thewe were plains percussion rifles (1845-55).  One I remember was .50 caliber
or so, but had been bored out and the barrel 'relined' because the old one
was shot...barrel was octagonal, but must have measured AT LEAST two inches
across the flats at the muzzle (I don't even think it was swamped).  ...and
it was short, maybe not even belly-button high.  Accurate?  He was the second
person in a round to split a roundball on an ax blade at 25 yards...I was
first and was also shooting an original.  <br>
Sparks<br>
<br>
roger lahti wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001101c37585$474bb570$e9037444@x2d1a5">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap=""> From what I have been reading it appears that starting around 1822 or so
that trade rifles were fairly common with the trapping brigades in the
west, with the Lancaster or american rifle and the English rifle being the
most common.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Rick,

Not that I am the list expert but I'll say your on the right track.
Lancaster's, JJ Henrys, NW trade guns, anything else that was in use by the
common man prior to your time frame are ok. Full stock and flint at that
time. Many young men signed on for the fur trade who did not have a rifle
and were issued or sold a rifle from company stock as needed.

  What about rifles carried west by the individual
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">trapper/mountaineer, was the Lancaster style fairly common, how about
Southern , iron mounted types.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
I'm not sure but what the "Southern Mt. Rifle" you mention isn't a later
rifle but I'm thinking there were more hired hands than experienced hunters
going west around then. A trade rifle as Hanson and others mention would be
on the mark in any case. A late 1700's long gun would too and it fits an
earlier time period if your a cross dresser. <G>



  From what I gather most of the trade rifles were made
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">with barrel lengths of between 40"-44".  If I have a rifle made I was
thinking of having the barrel shortened to be more convenient for me while
mounted.  My idea is to have it look as if it had been converted from its
original longer barrel length by a gunsmith.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
I don't know that that was done or felt necessary by mounted men or
vertically challenged men. The long rifle was carried through eastern forest
by Boone and his contemporaries so why not a relatively long trade rifle
going west? Gun length did shorten towards the end of the Rendezvous period
into the pioneer and miner eras but actually not all that much.

 Is there any documentation on
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">this being done, I have seen a few references to rifles with barrels
shortened but most were of later Hawkins.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
I think you answered your own question there.

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">And finally, if I do go with a shorter barrel, is there a point where it
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->will
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">start to affect the accuracy of the rifle, ie: 30", 32",34".
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Not in a practical sense. Rifles as short as 25" can be very accurate. Just
not very pretty or authentic to the period. There is a bit of loss of power
from the powder and you loose off hand stability with a shorter gun and a
shorter sight radius. I've got a 32" half stock flinter that I just moved
the rear sight forward about 6" so I could see both sights clear along with
the target and now there ain't much distance between the front and rear.
That's a consideration if you like traditional sights and have slowly ageing
eyes like the rest of us.

Hope this was of some help Rick. Kinda quiet on the list at the moment.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



----------------------
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  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------020503080108090502010805--


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 07 Sep 2003 17:43:49 -0600


--------------030507080504050908090409
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dave,
I think that only works with mice cuz they fight.  Decon contains an
anti-coagulant so they bleed to death, from what I understand.  Probably
the best method would be to contact your county Extension Agent for
advice.  I think they are listed under USDA in your phone book and are
frequently assiciated with a university.  If people start finding too
many dead birds in your area they may start having them mailed to the
state epidimeologist for West Nile Virus testing!
Sparks

dnelson wrote:

>How about feeding them decon.  The mice die.    Dale Nelson
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>
>
>>Dear List,
>>   I know this is kind of off of the MM subject(though it does involve
>>trapping) but I need help keeping pigeons off of our work shop.
>>   I've trapped over 25 up there so far in a bobbin trap which is fine and
>>dandy but I want to keep them from roosting there in the first place.
>>   Does anyone know how to keep pigeons from roosting where they're not
>>wanted? We have two plastic owls up there now and they roost next to
>>them!
>>We can't use pointy wire like they do on statues as it is a 20,000 square
>>foot roof. I can't shoot them on the roof like I do inside the shop as I
>>don't think it is a good idea to be on a rooftop,in town, with a gun
>>during Code Orange! I heard rubber snakes will scare them away? Any ideas
>>would be greatly appreciated.
>>   Between the 25+ I've trapped on the roof and the countless ones I've
>>shot inside the shop I should be called Pigeonboy!
>>     Thanks a ton in advance.
>>
>> PS  And to any pigeon lovers out there, I'm sorry but after you crawl
>>around a pigeon infested area and see what a disgusting mess they make,
>>you kind of loose your love for them. And don't tell me to eat them, I
>>have when I was younger, but after crawling around in thier piles of crap
>>the last thing you think about is cooking one!
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>


--------------030507080504050908090409
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
Dave,<br>
I think that only works with mice cuz they fight.  Decon contains an anti-coagulant
so they bleed to death, from what I understand.  Probably the best method
would be to contact your county Extension Agent for advice.  I think they
are listed under USDA in your phone book and are frequently assiciated with
a university.  If people start finding too many dead birds in your area they
may start having them mailed to the state epidimeologist for West Nile Virus
testing!<br>
Sparks<br>
<br>
dnelson wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="[e-mail]">
  <pre wrap="">How about feeding them decon.  The mice die.    Dale Nelson

<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a> wrote:

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Dear List,
   I know this is kind of off of the MM subject(though it does involve
trapping) but I need help keeping pigeons off of our work shop.
   I've trapped over 25 up there so far in a bobbin trap which is fine and
dandy but I want to keep them from roosting there in the first place.
   Does anyone know how to keep pigeons from roosting where they're not
wanted? We have two plastic owls up there now and they roost next to
them!
We can't use pointy wire like they do on statues as it is a 20,000 square
foot roof. I can't shoot them on the roof like I do inside the shop as I
don't think it is a good idea to be on a rooftop,in town, with a gun
during Code Orange! I heard rubber snakes will scare them away? Any ideas
would be greatly appreciated.
   Between the 25+ I've trapped on the roof and the countless ones I've
shot inside the shop I should be called Pigeonboy!
     Thanks a ton in advance.

 PS  And to any pigeon lovers out there, I'm sorry but after you crawl
around a pigeon infested area and see what a disgusting mess they make,
you kind of loose your love for them. And don't tell me to eat them, I
have when I was younger, but after crawling around in thier piles of crap
the last thing you think about is cooking one!

----------------------
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    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->

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</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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From: "busterize" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Chiggers & Flea collars
Date: 07 Sep 2003 16:50:30 -0700

Geesh! If an animal flea & tick collar can down a U.S. Marine, you know they
must be downright poison for the pets we put them on! I'm convinced those
collars were the cause of cancer and death of two of my good dogs. I'll
never use them on an animal again, much less a human!

Geri



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From: Samuel Keller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 07 Sep 2003 21:40:24 -0700 (PDT)

When I was a little kid (Brat), my Dad would put a
diluted solution of Lysol on the Chigger Bites to
relieve the itching. Always seemed to help.

Sam
--- Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
wrote:
> Allen
> One thing.....the best thing..... to learn is to
> avoid their preferred
> habitat......mainly tall grass and/or weeds,
> especially when it's about
> waist high.   The little varmints crawl  up and leap
> off on you as you brush
> past them, much like their cousins, the ticks do.
> If high grass can't be
> avoided protect your skin from attack by wearing
> shoes with tall socks.
> Wear long sleeved shirts & keep you shirt tail
> tucked in  If you are in a
> particularly infested region dust your feet and
> lower legs, waist band and
> shirt cuffs with sulfur flour (or better, a spray
> repellent with as much
> DEET as you can tolerate). However, short grass can
> also be thick with the
> little sob's so avoid sitting directly on the ground
> if possible.  If you're
> not sure if there are lots of chiggers present
> suspend a piece of black
> paper the weeds and inspect it in good light.  You
> will see the little
> critters.......they're red and vanishingly small.
> Look closely for
> movement.  If you suspect you have been dosed take a
> hot shower or bath as
> quickly as possible using strong soap.  Most
> remedies that are used after
> exposure have limited effect on the chiggers if you
> wait too long.  Chiggers
> search for a spot to attack and that might take a
> while.  Like I said the
> best way to avoid trouble is to keep out of tall
> grass and use an insect
> repellent with the highest DEET percentage as
> possible.  However, strong
> DEET products can bother some people so follow the
> directions found on the
> package.    I have been told many time to dab grease
> on the bumps to
> suffocate the critters but I've never had much luck
> doing that.   Scratching
> can lead to skin problems so do you best to avoid
> doing that.......rubbing
> is better.
> good luck
> Lanney in Texas.......chigger country
> click here for more informed data and some really
> scary close-up photos
>
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/L-1223.html
>
http://lancaster.unl.edu/enviro/pest/factsheets/008-96.htm
>
http://www.conservation.state.mo.us/nathis/arthopo/chiggers/
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Allen Hall" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 11:42 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
>
>
> > Hello the Camp,
> >
> > I'm interested in hearing how you that live in
> chigger country deal with
> the
> > bites of them nasty little critters.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Allen, in Fort Hall country
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 08 Sep 2003 00:53:16 -0400

On Monday September 08 2003 12:40 am, Samuel Keller wrote:
> When I was a little kid (Brat), my Dad would put a
> diluted solution of Lysol on the Chigger Bites to
> relieve the itching. Always seemed to help.

[snip]

I'd think that the suggested sulfur powder is MUCH better than what my
grandfather used when I was a kid, which was kerosene. It worked, but
depending on "where" the little critters were, the cure could be MUCH
more greater than the itch of the little buggers.

Fred

--
"...Linux, MS-DOS, and Windows XP (also known as the Good, the Bad, and
the Ugly)."


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles
Date: 08 Sep 2003 06:49:49 EDT


--part1_3d.34910284.2c8db8cd_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 9/7/2003 5:07:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> Ok, now for part two:  I am a rather small man, 5'9". 130 lbs after a big
> meal.  I try to spend most of my time forked over the back of a mule or if
> I have to a horse.  From what I gather most of the trade rifles were made
> with barrel lengths of between 40"-44".  If I have a rifle made I was
> thinking of haveing the barrel shortened to be more convienant for me while
> mounted.

I was about your size (5' 8", 145 lbs -- added some balast in the last couple
of years) & from my experience with my Dixie "Poor Boy", it's 42" straight
barrel gets a mite heavy on a 20 shot walk through.  I do use it quite
successfully in the field on mule deer.  I also have a custom rifle with a 42" swamped
barrel & there's as much difference in the two rifles as night & day in the
way they hold & balance.  That swamped barrel is a real pleasure to shoot.
However, finding docs for a swamped barrel in a trade rifle will be difficult if
not impossible.  A friend carries a Poor Boy that's barrel has been shortened
to 38" & it's much more comfortable for me.  I'd look for a barrel that's
15/16" to 1" across the flats in .54 cal & 34" to 38" in length.  The 38" lenght
works nicely with a full stock, but the 34" looks a mite strange with that much
wood.  Makes it look "stubby" to my eye.  As far as to how short you can go,
my wife shoots a .45 cal that's barrel is only 25".  'Course, it has a 12 1/2"
pull too, so it's full stock looks rather dimunitive.  When I first put it
together for her, it would put five out of five through the same hole at 25 yds.
That was before I shortened the pull so dang short to fit her, I can't shoot
it very well.
Nauga Mok

--part1_3d.34910284.2c8db8cd_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 9/7/2003 5:07:12 AM Pacific Dayligh=
t Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Ok, now for part two:  I a=
m a rather small man, 5'9". 130 lbs after a big <BR>
meal.  I try to spend most of my time forked over the back of a mule or=
 if <BR>
I have to a horse.  From what I gather most of the trade rifles were ma=
de <BR>
with barrel lengths of between 40"-44".  If I have a rifle made I was <=
BR>
thinking of haveing the barrel shortened to be more convienant for me while=20=
<BR>
mounted.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
I was about your size (5' 8", 145 lbs -- added some balast in the last coupl=
e of years) & from my experience with my Dixie "Poor Boy", it's 42" stra=
ight barrel gets a mite heavy on a 20 shot walk through.  I do use it q=
uite successfully in the field on mule deer.  I also have a custom rifl=
e with a 42" swamped barrel & there's as much difference in the two rifl=
es as night & day in the way they hold & balance.  That swamped=
 barrel is a real pleasure to shoot.  However, finding docs for a swamp=
ed barrel in a trade rifle will be difficult if not impossible.  A frie=
nd carries a Poor Boy that's barrel has been shortened to 38" & it's muc=
h more comfortable for me.  I'd look for a barrel that's 15/16" to 1" a=
cross the flats in .54 cal & 34" to 38" in length.  The 38" lenght=20=
works nicely with a full stock, but the 34" looks a mite strange with that m=
uch wood.  Makes it look "stubby" to my eye.  As far as to how sho=
rt you can go, my wife shoots a .45 cal that's barrel is only 25".  'Co=
urse, it has a 12 1/2" pull too, so it's full stock looks rather dimunitive.=
  When I first put it together for her, it would put five out of five t=
hrough the same hole at 25 yds.  That was before I shortened the pull s=
o dang short to fit her, I can't shoot it very well.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D4=
 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Mistral" LANG=3D"0">Nauga Mok</FONT></HTML>

--part1_3d.34910284.2c8db8cd_boundary--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ole Jensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 18 Sep 2003 08:08:03 -0600

Lanny,
I would build them a pigeon house, feed them and eat them.
I think George Washington had one and as I have eaten them they are tastey.
Ole


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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 08 Sep 2003 09:35:00 -0500

Ole
I have cousins who used to routinely shoot them from under overpasses and
ate every one.  Claimed they were essentially big doves.  They ARE just
adult squab.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:08 AM


> Lanny,
> I would build them a pigeon house, feed them and eat them.
> I think George Washington had one and as I have eaten them they are
tastey.
> Ole
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 08 Sep 2003 13:34:32 -0500

Allen,

I have found nothing that will keep MO or KY chiggers off including pure
DEET.  Short period long sleeves socks and pants tucked in boots with a
soon hot shower no problem.  Live on the ground a few days and you are
food.  Keeps us humble as we know we are not the top of the food chain.

Pure alcohol swabbed on liberally helps stop the itching, for short
periods.  Folks say not to scratch the bites, I just ain't figgered out how
to not scratch.  Anti-itch cremes and such don't work one bit better or
longer than alcohol on me.

Wait till a few MO spiders take a bite and leave large purple festering
wounds that take months to heal and leave permanent scars.

John...


At 11:40 PM 9/7/03, you wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Allen Hall" <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 11:42 AM
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
> >
> >
> > > Hello the Camp,
> > >
> > > I'm interested in hearing how you that live in
> > chigger country deal with
> > the
> > > bites of them nasty little critters.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Allen, in Fort Hall country
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> >

If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
john <[e-mail]>

Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit of the
American Mountain Men
http://amm-auction.com/


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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles
Date: 08 Sep 2003 13:55:49 -0600

Rick,

I've been packing a 42" Lancaster on horses for several years now, through
woods as well as open country here in the Rocky Mountains.  I figure if the
original guys got used to is, so could I.

When I started into the world of flintlocks I asked an experienced guy for
recommendations.  His reply was simple, "get a good one".  What he meant was
don't buy a cheap flinter, hoping it'll work.  Buy a good one from a
reputable maker.

Jump in, you'll like it!  Eventually maybe you'll even get cured from
mules.......<bg>

Allen in Fort Hall Country

At 05:06 AM 9/7/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello to the camp, I'm coming in slow and easy looking for some information
>to help me find the correct path .
>
>I have basicly a 3 part question concering rifles of the 1800-1840
>period.  I am looking to purchase a new rifle of the period and thought it
>best to do some research before I make the commitment both in dollars and
>rilfe style.
>
> From what I have been reading it appears that starting around 1822 or so
>that trade rifles were fairly common with the trapping brigades in the
>west, with the Lancaster or american rifle and the English rifle being the
>most common.  Most of my information cmae from Hanson's "The Hawken Rifle:
>it's place in History.  Several other sources I read appeared to have
>stated the same information as Hanson.  Any thought on these trade rifles,
>I am looking for the earlier style which is the reason I keyed on these two
>types.  What about rifles carried west by the induvidual
>trapper/mountaineer, was the Lancaster style fairly common, how about
>Southern , iron mounted types.
>
>Ok, now for part two:  I am a rather small man, 5'9". 130 lbs after a big
>meal.  I try to spend most of my time forked over the back of a mule or if
>I have to a horse.  From what I gather most of the trade rifles were made
>with barrel lengths of between 40"-44".  If I have a rifle made I was
>thinking of haveing the barrel shortened to be more convienant for me while
>mounted.  My idea is to have it look as if it had been converted from its
>original longer barrel length by a gunsmith.  Is there any documentation on
>this being done, I have seen a few references to rifles with barrels
>shortened but most were of later Hawkins.
>
>And finally, if I do go with a shorter barrel, is there a point wre it will
>start to affect the accuracy of the rifle, ie: 30", 32",34".
>
>I look forward to hearing your comments.  By the way the question on saddle
>bags is a one that is long overdue.  Since I do spend most of my time
>mounted I have been also searching for the right type of gear.
>
>Rick
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 08 Sep 2003 15:27:09 -0500


>
>
>I have found nothing that will keep MO or KY chiggers off including pure
>DEET.

Permanone from Waly world does an outstanding job of keeping me tick and
chigger free.
Follow the directions on the spray can. Costs about six bucks a can. One
application to clothing will last about two weeks, through two
washings.  Permanone is the ONLY thing I have found to keep ticks and
chiggers off.

I even spray my ground cloth when I go out in warm weather.

J.D. in east central MO. where the little red beggars thrive.

>> > > I'm interested in hearing how you that live in
>> > chigger country deal with
>> > the
>> > > bites of them nasty little critters.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > >
>> > > Allen, in Fort Hall country
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----------------------
>> > > hist_text list info:
>> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>
>If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
>john <[e-mail]>
>
>Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit of
>the American Mountain Men
>http://amm-auction.com/
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "GOOD OLD JOE" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 08 Sep 2003 17:20:04 -0500

I have good luck using peroxide on chigger, flea and spider bites.
Following an illness, those little buggers really think I'm tasty.
Read somewhere that venoms are acidic and peroxide or baking soda paste will
neutralize them quickly.  Seems to work here. Old Joe

Joe Brott (Old Joe), Plattsmouth, Nebraska



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "don secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles
Date: 08 Sep 2003 22:30:45 +0000

Howdy Fellas,
There ain't nothin' like lookin' at old originals for documentation. The old
scroll guard Henry and the Lancaster Pattern Henry as well as most pre-1830
Pennsylvania rifles had swamped barrels on 'em. And ya can't beat 'em for
balance and the full length(42"-44") give ya a longer sight radius which
tends to give a rifle more accuracy at longer distances. Provided the fella
pullin' the trigger does his part. If ya can possibly do it, see the
collections of the Museum of the Fur Trade and the Davis Gun Museum at
Claremore, Oklahoma. Plenty of documentable evidence that shows mountainy
men carrying long guns on horse in period illustrations. The short Lemans
and Hawkens were to late for the fur trappers pre-1839. Hope this helps ya
in your decision makin' process on your new rifle gun.
Happy trails,
Don Secondine


>From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles
>Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 13:55:49 -0600
>
>Rick,
>
>I've been packing a 42" Lancaster on horses for several years now, through
>woods as well as open country here in the Rocky Mountains.  I figure if the
>original guys got used to is, so could I.
>
>When I started into the world of flintlocks I asked an experienced guy for
>recommendations.  His reply was simple, "get a good one".  What he meant
>was
>don't buy a cheap flinter, hoping it'll work.  Buy a good one from a
>reputable maker.
>
>Jump in, you'll like it!  Eventually maybe you'll even get cured from
>mules.......<bg>
>
>Allen in Fort Hall Country
>
>At 05:06 AM 9/7/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >Hello to the camp, I'm coming in slow and easy looking for some
>information
> >to help me find the correct path .
> >
> >I have basicly a 3 part question concering rifles of the 1800-1840
> >period.  I am looking to purchase a new rifle of the period and thought
>it
> >best to do some research before I make the commitment both in dollars and
> >rilfe style.
> >
> > From what I have been reading it appears that starting around 1822 or so
> >that trade rifles were fairly common with the trapping brigades in the
> >west, with the Lancaster or american rifle and the English rifle being
>the
> >most common.  Most of my information cmae from Hanson's "The Hawken
>Rifle:
> >it's place in History.  Several other sources I read appeared to have
> >stated the same information as Hanson.  Any thought on these trade
>rifles,
> >I am looking for the earlier style which is the reason I keyed on these
>two
> >types.  What about rifles carried west by the induvidual
> >trapper/mountaineer, was the Lancaster style fairly common, how about
> >Southern , iron mounted types.
> >
> >Ok, now for part two:  I am a rather small man, 5'9". 130 lbs after a big
> >meal.  I try to spend most of my time forked over the back of a mule or
>if
> >I have to a horse.  From what I gather most of the trade rifles were made
> >with barrel lengths of between 40"-44".  If I have a rifle made I was
> >thinking of haveing the barrel shortened to be more convienant for me
>while
> >mounted.  My idea is to have it look as if it had been converted from its
> >original longer barrel length by a gunsmith.  Is there any documentation
>on
> >this being done, I have seen a few references to rifles with barrels
> >shortened but most were of later Hawkins.
> >
> >And finally, if I do go with a shorter barrel, is there a point wre it
>will
> >start to affect the accuracy of the rifle, ie: 30", 32",34".
> >
> >I look forward to hearing your comments.  By the way the question on
>saddle
> >bags is a one that is long overdue.  Since I do spend most of my time
> >mounted I have been also searching for the right type of gear.
> >
> >Rick
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rifles
Date: 08 Sep 2003 17:15:18 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C3762C.C6C95DF0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Allen
    Git wat suits you. But for MM you should probably make it a pre-1830 =
style. My two cents take is that when these guys went west they were =
poor and brought whatever they could afford or steal.
    Any rifle or smoothbore that worked probably found its way up the MO =
river into the Rockies. Men came in all sizes then, just like they do =
now and if a man carried something he could not use effectively it ended =
up in the hands of his killers quickly.
    No doubt in my mind (that's not proof) that many Brown Besses and =
Charly'villes were cut down and carried west as were various rifles in =
various calibers.
    Again, no doubt, for rifles bigger bores were preferable. Get what =
works for you, if a 26" barrel is what you need that is what you need. =
Bigger bores do weigh less than smaller bores in same size barrel but =
the trade off is sometimes in felt recoil. Its your choice.
Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C3762C.C6C95DF0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Allen</DIV>
<DIV>    Git wat suits you. But for MM you should =
probably make=20
it a pre-1830 style. My two cents take is that when these guys went west =
they=20
were poor and brought whatever they could afford or steal.</DIV>
<DIV>    Any rifle or smoothbore that worked probably =
found its=20
way up the MO river into the Rockies. Men came in all sizes then, just =
like they=20
do now and if a man carried something he could not use effectively it =
ended up=20
in the hands of his killers quickly.</DIV>
<DIV>    No doubt in my mind (that's not proof) that many =
Brown=20
Besses and Charly'villes were cut down and carried west as were various =
rifles=20
in various calibers.</DIV>
<DIV>    Again, no doubt, for rifles bigger bores were=20
preferable. Get what works for you, if a 26" barrel is what you need =
that is=20
what you need. Bigger bores do weigh less than smaller bores in same =
size barrel=20
but the trade off is sometimes in felt recoil. Its your choice.</DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C3762C.C6C95DF0--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles
Date: 08 Sep 2003 18:45:46 -0600


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Frank and the Camp,
You're right, lots of poor people came west.  But some that came west
were not ALWAYS poor.  My family, for instance, lost big assets due to
the AWI (as Patriots).  My family moved south, but if they had moved
west I'd wager they brought the family bible, rifle, horn, and personal
effects.
Sparks


Frank Fusco wrote:

> Allen
>     Git wat suits you. But for MM you should probably make it a
> pre-1830 style. My two cents take is that when these guys went west
> they were poor and brought whatever they could afford or steal.
>     Any rifle or smoothbore that worked probably found its way up the
> MO river into the Rockies. Men came in all sizes then, just like they
> do now and if a man carried something he could not use effectively it
> ended up in the hands of his killers quickly.
>     No doubt in my mind (that's not proof) that many Brown Besses and
> Charly'villes were cut down and carried west as were various rifles in
> various calibers.
>     Again, no doubt, for rifles bigger bores were preferable. Get what
> works for you, if a 26" barrel is what you need that is what you need.
> Bigger bores do weigh less than smaller bores in same size barrel but
> the trade off is sometimes in felt recoil. Its your choice.
> Frank



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Frank and the Camp,<br>
You're right, lots of poor people came west.  But some that came west were
not ALWAYS poor.  My family, for instance, lost big assets due to the AWI
(as Patriots).  My family moved south, but if they had moved west I'd wager
they brought the family bible, rifle, horn, and personal effects. <br>
Sparks<br>
<br>
<br>
Frank Fusco wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="mid002b01c37656$b0929f90$0f02a8c0@D2K2KS21">
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">

  <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name="GENERATOR">

  <style></style>
  <div>Allen</div>

  <div>    Git wat suits you. But for MM you should probably make  it a pre-1830
style. My two cents take is that when these guys went west they  were poor
and brought whatever they could afford or steal.</div>

  <div>    Any rifle or smoothbore that worked probably found its  way up
the MO river into the Rockies. Men came in all sizes then, just like they
 do now and if a man carried something he could not use effectively it ended
up  in the hands of his killers quickly.</div>

  <div>    No doubt in my mind (that's not proof) that many Brown  Besses
and Charly'villes were cut down and carried west as were various rifles  in
various calibers.</div>

  <div>    Again, no doubt, for rifles bigger bores were  preferable. Get
what works for you, if a 26" barrel is what you need that is  what you need.
Bigger bores do weigh less than smaller bores in same size barrel  but the
trade off is sometimes in felt recoil. Its your choice.</div>

  <div>Frank</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 08 Sep 2003 18:53:16 -0600

Pheremones?
HHHHHHMMMMmmmmmmmm
Pheremones are sexual scent attractants...usually used to decoy pests
AWAY from something.  For me, using pheremones only works when I am out
in the woods with a partner.  Good to know they will last for two weeks.
 Got any tips on how to sneak it into your partners clothes?  I'd need
to know that step :-)
Sparks



John Dearing wrote:

>
>>
>>
>> I have found nothing that will keep MO or KY chiggers off including
>> pure DEET.
>
>
> Permanone from Waly world does an outstanding job of keeping me tick
> and chigger free.
> Follow the directions on the spray can. Costs about six bucks a can.
> One application to clothing will last about two weeks, through two
> washings.  Permanone is the ONLY thing I have found to keep ticks and
> chiggers off.
>
> I even spray my ground cloth when I go out in warm weather.
>
> J.D. in east central MO. where the little red beggars thrive.
>
>>> > > I'm interested in hearing how you that live in
>>> > chigger country deal with
>>> > the
>>> > > bites of them nasty little critters.
>>> > >
>>> > > Thanks,
>>> > >
>>> > > Allen, in Fort Hall country
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > ----------------------
>>> > > hist_text list info:
>>> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>> If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
>> john <[e-mail]>
>>
>> Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit
>> of the American Mountain Men
>> http://amm-auction.com/
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 08 Sep 2003 20:53:19 -0700

I'm thinking we mean to spell "premetheren", least without looking at my can
out in the shop I think that is right. It is actually a pesticide and is not
to be put on your skin. Spray it on cloths and bedding as directed and it is
supposed to be about the only thing that will keep ticks and etc. things
that crawl or jump onto you, off you.

Capt. Lahti'


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 5:53 PM


> Pheremones?
> HHHHHHMMMMmmmmmmmm
> Pheremones are sexual scent attractants...usually used to decoy pests
> AWAY from something.  For me, using pheremones only works when I am out
> in the woods with a partner.  Good to know they will last for two weeks.
>  Got any tips on how to sneak it into your partners clothes?  I'd need
> to know that step :-)
> Sparks
>
>
>
> John Dearing wrote:
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I have found nothing that will keep MO or KY chiggers off including
> >> pure DEET.
> >
> >
> > Permanone from Waly world does an outstanding job of keeping me tick
> > and chigger free.
> > Follow the directions on the spray can. Costs about six bucks a can.
> > One application to clothing will last about two weeks, through two
> > washings.  Permanone is the ONLY thing I have found to keep ticks and
> > chiggers off.
> >
> > I even spray my ground cloth when I go out in warm weather.
> >
> > J.D. in east central MO. where the little red beggars thrive.
> >
> >>> > > I'm interested in hearing how you that live in
> >>> > chigger country deal with
> >>> > the
> >>> > > bites of them nasty little critters.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Thanks,
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Allen, in Fort Hall country
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > ----------------------
> >>> > > hist_text list info:
> >>> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>
> >>
> >> If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
> >> john <[e-mail]>
> >>
> >> Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit
> >> of the American Mountain Men
> >> http://amm-auction.com/
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 08 Sep 2003 21:03:02 -0700

permethrin is the word I was looking for. This is an excerpt from a web page
offering Duranon* Tick Repellent.

Capt. L


Note: This tick repellent (Duranon) contains permethrin and is for treatment
of clothing only. Do not apply this to the skin.

http://www.travdoc.com/outpost/10.htm


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 09 Sep 2003 00:19:16 -0400

Wonder if PYRETHRIN (sp) from the Crysanthamum leaves would work too? Used
to use it alot in the Navy for bugs...

Ad


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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles
Date: 08 Sep 2003 23:26:57 -0600

 Allen Hall <[e-mail]> wrote


> Jump in, you'll like it!  Eventually maybe you'll even get cured from
> mules.......<bg>
>

Allen
As I recall when we was in the middle of a six day ride and your tarps, cook
gear, and food were all hanging offn the side of a mule you did not seem to
think of them as an affliction.  As I recall the thought of a cold, hungry
camp encouraged wonderous amounts of kind words from the depth of your soul.
Now afore you get to graphic in curing things keep in mind those mules don't
forget.

Wynn Ormond



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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rifles and mules
Date: 08 Sep 2003 23:49:39 -0600

At 11:26 PM 9/8/2003 -0600, you wrote:

>Allen
>As I recall when we was in the middle of a six day ride and your tarps, cook
>gear, and food were all hanging offn the side of a mule you did not seem to
>think of them as an affliction.  As I recall the thought of a cold, hungry
>camp encouraged wonderous amounts of kind words from the depth of your soul.
>Now afore you get to graphic in curing things keep in mind those mules don't
>forget.
>
>Wynn Ormond

Wynn,

You are right, that little darling mule of yours was a sweetheart, and a
fine pack critter.  Tempermental though, I reckon...... why, I recall that
rodeo that she gave you on our beaver camp a couple of years ago.  Course,
you don't recall much of that short ride after landing on your head!  Sure
glad you missed the rock!

We need to get on a ride to discuss the merits of the mules, horses, long
and short rifles and other issues of importance!!!

Take care, Brother!

Allen



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 09 Sep 2003 04:40:34 EDT


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In a message dated 9/7/2003 3:25:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:


>   Does anyone know how to keep pigeons from roosting where they're not
> wanted? We have two plastic owls up there now and they roost next to
> them!
>

A couple of things that seem to work here in Las Vegas:

First: The high rise hotels have started planting hawks & eagles on their
roofs.  Where the big birds have "taken" they've done considerable damage to the
pigeon population.

Second: At a place I used to work, we had a problem with ravens & pigeons
roosting on our heavy equipment, especially on the big American & Manitowoc
cranes that were usually parked with 200+ feet of "stick" (boom).  The solution
there was "bird cannon".  These noise makers operate on propane.  They're clock
controlled to come on about 3:30 - 4:00 PM & run until dark.  They fire
randomly and are on a pivot so they spin & fire in a different direction nearly every
time.  When they fire, they mimic a 12 bore smoothie with about a three dram
load.  'Course this would be about the same as you shooting birds as far as
close neighbors are concerned.  One thing we learned with the bird guns is they
have to be moved periodically or the birds get used to them.  With this in
mind, you might try moving your fake owls every week or so.  With that large
roof, it shouldn't be hard to reposition the owls.  They need to be moved 20 feet
or so.  Maybe set 'em up on a rope controlled trolley so you don't have to get
up on the roof so often.  Same would apply to the rubber snakes.
Nauga Mok

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 9/7/2003 3:25:33 PM Pacific Dayligh=
t Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">  Does anyone know how to=20=
keep pigeons from roosting where they're not<BR>
wanted? We have two plastic owls up there now and they roost next to<BR>
them!<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
A couple of things that seem to work here in Las Vegas:  <BR>
<BR>
First: The high rise hotels have started planting hawks & eagles on thei=
r roofs.  Where the big birds have "taken" they've done considerable da=
mage to the pigeon population.  <BR>
<BR>
Second: At a place I used to work, we had a problem with ravens & pigeon=
s roosting on our heavy equipment, especially on the big American & Mani=
towoc cranes that were usually parked with 200+ feet of "stick" (boom). =
; The solution there was "bird cannon".  These noise makers operate on=20=
propane.  They're clock controlled to come on about 3:30 - 4:00 PM &=
; run until dark.  They fire randomly and are on a pivot so they spin &=
amp; fire in a different direction nearly every time.  When they fire,=20=
they mimic a 12 bore smoothie with about a three dram load.  'Course th=
is would be about the same as you shooting birds as far as close neighbors a=
re concerned.  One thing we learned with the bird guns is they have to=20=
be moved periodically or the birds get used to them.  With this in mind=
, you might try moving your fake owls every week or so.  With that larg=
e roof, it shouldn't be hard to reposition the owls.  They need to be m=
oved 20 feet or so.  Maybe set 'em up on a rope controlled trolley so y=
ou don't have to get up on the roof so often.  Same would apply to the=20=
rubber snakes.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D4=
 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Mistral" LANG=3D"0">Nauga Mok</FONT></HTML>

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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 09 Sep 2003 06:14:34 -0600


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Thanks for the explanation!
Makes a big difference.
Sparks

roger lahti wrote:

>I'm thinking we mean to spell "premetheren", least without looking at my can
>out in the shop I think that is right. It is actually a pesticide and is not
>to be put on your skin. Spray it on cloths and bedding as directed and it is
>supposed to be about the only thing that will keep ticks and etc. things
>that crawl or jump onto you, off you.
>
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "James and Sue Stone" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 5:53 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
>
>
>
>
>>Pheremones?
>>HHHHHHMMMMmmmmmmmm
>>Pheremones are sexual scent attractants...usually used to decoy pests
>>AWAY from something.  For me, using pheremones only works when I am out
>>in the woods with a partner.  Good to know they will last for two weeks.
>> Got any tips on how to sneak it into your partners clothes?  I'd need
>>to know that step :-)
>>Sparks
>>
>>
>>
>>John Dearing wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>I have found nothing that will keep MO or KY chiggers off including
>>>>pure DEET.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Permanone from Waly world does an outstanding job of keeping me tick
>>>and chigger free.
>>>Follow the directions on the spray can. Costs about six bucks a can.
>>>One application to clothing will last about two weeks, through two
>>>washings.  Permanone is the ONLY thing I have found to keep ticks and
>>>chiggers off.
>>>
>>>I even spray my ground cloth when I go out in warm weather.
>>>
>>>J.D. in east central MO. where the little red beggars thrive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>I'm interested in hearing how you that live in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>chigger country deal with
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>bites of them nasty little critters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Allen, in Fort Hall country
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----------------------
>>>>>>>hist_text list info:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
>>>>john <[e-mail]>
>>>>
>>>>Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit
>>>>of the American Mountain Men
>>>>http://amm-auction.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----------------------
>>>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>----------------------
>>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>


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<body>
Thanks for the explanation!<br>
Makes a big difference.<br>
Sparks<br>
<br>
roger lahti wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid009f01c37685$e85999e0$e9037444@x2d1a5">
  <pre wrap="">I'm thinking we mean to spell "premetheren", least without looking at my can
out in the shop I think that is right. It is actually a pesticide and is not
to be put on your skin. Spray it on cloths and bedding as directed and it is
supposed to be about the only thing that will keep ticks and etc. things
that crawl or jump onto you, off you.

Capt. Lahti'


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 5:53 PM


  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Pheremones?
HHHHHHMMMMmmmmmmmm
Pheremones are sexual scent attractants...usually used to decoy pests
AWAY from something.  For me, using pheremones only works when I am out
in the woods with a partner.  Good to know they will last for two weeks.
 Got any tips on how to sneak it into your partners clothes?  I'd need
to know that step :-)
Sparks



John Dearing wrote:

    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
I have found nothing that will keep MO or KY chiggers off including
pure DEET.
        </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Permanone from Waly world does an outstanding job of keeping me tick
and chigger free.
Follow the directions on the spray can. Costs about six bucks a can.
One application to clothing will last about two weeks, through two
washings.  Permanone is the ONLY thing I have found to keep ticks and
chiggers off.

I even spray my ground cloth when I go out in warm weather.

J.D. in east central MO. where the little red beggars thrive.

      </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">I'm interested in hearing how you that live in
              </pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">chigger country deal with
the
            </pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">bites of them nasty little critters.

Thanks,

Allen, in Fort Hall country



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              </pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a>
            </pre>
            <pre wrap="">
            </pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
john <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[e-mail]"><[e-mail]></a>

Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit
of the American Mountain Men
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://amm-auction.com/">http://amm-auction.com/</a>


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      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">

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  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->

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</blockquote>
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From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 09 Sep 2003 11:00:37 -0500

I think that permethrin is the refined form of pyrethrin, which is the
component of chrysanthemums that kills insects. So Chrysanthimum leaves
should work to some degree.

I looked at the can on Permanone and it says it repels ticks, chiggers,
mites and mosquitoes.Kills 'em dead is more like it. I have found dead
ticks on my hunting clothes, several times. So yes products containing
permethrin do work very well to keep the critters from getting under your
skin.  Pun intended ;-)

J.D.


>Wonder if PYRETHRIN (sp) from the Crysanthamum leaves would work too? Used
>to use it alot in the Navy for bugs...
>
>Ad
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 09 Sep 2003 11:03:48 -0400

cpt L
seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for
deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed
ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i
washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered
with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year
here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick
grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what
we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed
cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny
buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers---


"Hawk"


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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 09 Sep 2003 13:31:28 -0700

Hawk,

Well I know I am going to spray down my cloths and bedding with that
permethrin something fierce before my next late summer outing. From what
they say and what others testify to, the stuff works.

Capt. L

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:03 AM


> cpt L
> seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for
> deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed
> ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i
> washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered
> with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year
> here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick
> grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what
> we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed
> cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny
> buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers---
>
>
> "Hawk"
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 09 Sep 2003 13:31:28 -0700

Hawk,

Well I know I am going to spray down my cloths and bedding with that
permethrin something fierce before my next late summer outing. From what
they say and what others testify to, the stuff works.

Capt. L

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:03 AM


> cpt L
> seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for
> deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed
> ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i
> washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered
> with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year
> here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick
> grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what
> we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed
> cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny
> buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers---
>
>
> "Hawk"
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
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From: Rick Guglielmi <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules
Date: 09 Sep 2003 18:55:09 -0700

Allen,

Now that sounds like one worth going on, we can see what it's like to be
astride one of those longears pulling 3 more behind with that 42" barreled
trade rifle across your lap.  Maturity doesn't always mean one is getting
any smarter, I keep trading in my old horses for young mules and most of
the time enjoying it.  As much as I have enjoyed reading the discussions
over the computer  I would much rather be in a mountain camp sharing a warm
fire and tossing around the finer points of the mules within our view
grazing and the rifles cradled across our laps.  Let me know I'm ready!!

Rick

At 11:49 PM 09/08/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>At 11:26 PM 9/8/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >Allen
> >As I recall when we was in the middle of a six day ride and your tarps, cook
> >gear, and food were all hanging offn the side of a mule you did not seem to
> >think of them as an affliction.  As I recall the thought of a cold, hungry
> >camp encouraged wonderous amounts of kind words from the depth of your soul.
> >Now afore you get to graphic in curing things keep in mind those mules don't
> >forget.
> >
> >Wynn Ormond
>
>Wynn,
>
>You are right, that little darling mule of yours was a sweetheart, and a
>fine pack critter.  Tempermental though, I reckon...... why, I recall that
>rodeo that she gave you on our beaver camp a couple of years ago.  Course,
>you don't recall much of that short ride after landing on your head!  Sure
>glad you missed the rock!
>
>We need to get on a ride to discuss the merits of the mules, horses, long
>and short rifles and other issues of importance!!!
>
>Take care, Brother!
>
>Allen
>
>
>
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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules
Date: 09 Sep 2003 22:13:31 -0400

>  I would much rather be in a mountain camp sharing a warm
> fire and tossing around the finer points of the mules within our view
> grazing and the rifles cradled across our laps.  Let me know I'm ready!!
>
> Rick

...and your point is???  <grins>  If we had our "druthers", I think all of
us would like to be. Trying to get Wes WEaver to come up from NC and a
couple of others from herein WV, if they are interested, to try a 3 day
weekend - canoe trip on the Greenbrier River or the New River... Never done
a canoe trip before, and I think it would be interesting to do. Come on out
and join us.... :)

Regards,

Ad


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area?
Date: 09 Sep 2003 20:30:18 -0600 (MDT)

  I kind of figured what you said about moving noise makers and rubber
snakes and even the owls around would be a good idea. I'll have to do
that from now on every time I go up there to check my trap.
  I got the last ones (of this group) two days ago and day three I saw 6
new ones up there. Evidently, when I trap them out, I free up territory
for some new ones. I get paid by the company to get rid of them so I
guess I shouldn't complain.
  Another thing I need to do is enclose all the nesting areas like under
the heaters and airconditioners. Oh, and these heaters and AC's are for
the bigshots in the office not the shop! We got nothing but a roof.
  I'm going to call my friend who's in the bird club and see if he wants
all these pigeons for practice shooting. No sense in wringing their
necks and pitching them.
  Have no desire to eat them anymore after walking around their crap heaps.
  I bought a chicken farmer out once. All 200 chickens. I wrung their
necks, gutted and plucked them all in one sitting. Didn't want to eat a
chicken for months after that!
       bb


> A couple of things that seem to work here in Las Vegas:
>
> First: The high rise hotels have started planting hawks & eagles on their
> roofs.  Where the big birds have "taken" they've done considerable damage
> to the
> pigeon population.
>
> Second: At a place I used to work, we had a problem with ravens & pigeons
> roosting on our heavy equipment, especially on the big American &
> Manitowoc
> cranes that were usually parked with 200+ feet of "stick" (boom).  The
> solution
> there was "bird cannon".  These noise makers operate on propane.  They're
> clock
> controlled to come on about 3:30 - 4:00 PM & run until dark.  They fire
> randomly and are on a pivot so they spin & fire in a different direction
> nearly every
> time.  When they fire, they mimic a 12 bore smoothie with about a three
> dram
> load.  'Course this would be about the same as you shooting birds as far
> as
> close neighbors are concerned.  One thing we learned with the bird guns is
> they
> have to be moved periodically or the birds get used to them.  With this in
> mind, you might try moving your fake owls every week or so.  With that
> large
> roof, it shouldn't be hard to reposition the owls.  They need to be moved
> 20 feet
> or so.  Maybe set 'em up on a rope controlled trolley so you don't have to
> get
> up on the roof so often.  Same would apply to the rubber snakes.
> Nauga Mok
>


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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules
Date: 09 Sep 2003 21:46:52 -0600

> You are right, that little darling mule of yours was a sweetheart, and a
> fine pack critter.  Tempermental though, I reckon...... why, I recall that
> rodeo that she gave you on our beaver camp a couple of years ago.  Course,
> you don't recall much of that short ride after landing on your head!  Sure
> glad you missed the rock!
>

If I remember right, at the time you were more concerned that I had dug the
trench with the wrong tool.  I remember you saying "Hell, Wynn you coulda
barrowed a shovel, you didn't need to use your head to dig that trench."

Wynn


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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 09 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0600

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Re: Saddle Bags


One question I have for one & all, which came up again during one of my =
presentations at the Fort.  Tapaderos:  Monkey Face and Bat Wing.  Can =
anybody tell me which one is, and which one is not ... period (pre =
1840)?.

Hooah
Louis


Louis
We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new to you.  I do not =
see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc.  I do see the western =
stirrup which as you know is upside down in construction to the ones the =
Indains built.  I believe that modern saddlemakers like Bob Schmitt =
tried to blend what was actually known with what the customers were used =
to seeing and what was available, so their saddles would sell.  That is =
why we have the buckskinner look we have today.

Taps-- You can probably find them on military saddles pre 1840 or =
Mexican saddles but show me any evidence of them in the mountains.

Big finished leather saddlebags--  Refer to Crazy's post earlier.

Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- English irons are not all =
that bad to use.  I have been using them now for over two years but they =
do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle tree.  Indian stirrups are =
not readily available, but maybe some enterprising fellow could fix =
that.

Seats or half seats-- Why would all those mountianeers put epishmores or =
blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat =
already.  Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a covering like a =
mochilla.

Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything resembling an english saddle =
yet the secondary sources I have seen say they were more common than the =
Spanish saddles.

Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am sorry.  I aint perfect either, =
my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings much more than Millers.  Still lets =
be honest if we color authenticity.  Black and white or shades of grey =
it all adds up.  By next year maybe we will have a saddle that =
represents everything known to be the typical mountain saddle, but it =
did not hang on our rack this year.  Perhaps ten or twenty years from =
now the new guys will roll their eyes at our hookey soft horse equipment =
and call it all hollywood.

Wynn Ormond




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Louis =
Lasater</A>=20
</DIV><BR>One question I have for one & all, which came up again =
during one=20
of my presentations at the Fort.  Tapaderos:  Monkey Face and =
Bat=20
Wing.  Can anybody tell me which one is, and which one is not ... =
period=20
(pre 1840)?.<BR><BR>Hooah<BR>Louis<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Louis</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new =
to=20
you.  I do not see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc.  I =
do see=20
the western stirrup which as you know is upside down in construction to =
the ones=20
the Indains built.  I believe that modern saddlemakers like Bob =
Schmitt=20
tried to blend what was actually known with what the customers were used =
to=20
seeing and what was available, so their saddles would sell.  That =
is why we=20
have the buckskinner look we have today.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Taps-- You can probably find them on military =
saddles pre 1840=20
or Mexican saddles but show me any evidence of them in the=20
mountains.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Big finished leather saddlebags--  Refer to =
Crazy's post=20
earlier.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- English =
irons are=20
not all that bad to use.  I have been using them now for over two =
years but=20
they do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle tree.  Indian =
stirrups are=20
not readily available, but maybe some enterprising fellow could fix=20
that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Seats or half seats-- Why would all those =
mountianeers put=20
epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy =
leather seat=20
already.  Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a covering =
like a=20
mochilla.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything =
resembling an=20
english saddle yet the secondary sources I have seen say they were =
more=20
common than the Spanish saddles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am =
sorry. =20
I aint perfect either, my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings much =
more=20
than Millers.  Still lets be honest if we color authenticity.  =
Black=20
and white or shades of grey it all adds up.  By next year maybe we =
will=20
have a saddle that represents everything known to be the typical =
mountain=20
saddle, but it did not hang on our rack this year.  Perhaps ten or =
twenty=20
years from now the new guys will roll their eyes at our hookey soft =
horse=20
equipment and call it all hollywood.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Wynn Ormond</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px"> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Bradbury
Date: 09 Sep 2003 22:04:52 -0600

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While doing a little research about stirrups I found an interesting =
description of the saddle that Bradbury used leaving the Arikera =
villages.  This might be a bit primitive for 1837 but it was probably =
very close to what many of the trappers who were lucky enough to ride, =
rode in the early days.  By the way he had spent enough hours at a trot =
to give him pain in any saddle, so don't be to quick to judge it =
harshly.

Crazy or others.  Does this sound like a chicken snare saddle that was =
not supposed to be available until after the fur trade?  Also note that =
only the pommel is stated to be high.  Perhaps here is some =
documentation for womens saddles to not be death traps.

Wynn=20
TRAVELS IN=20
THE INTERIOR OF AMERICA,
IN THE=20
YEARS 1809,1810, AND 1811;
Second Edition
BY JOHN BRADBURY, F.L.S. LONDON=20

I had already painfully experienced the effects of an Indian saddle, =
which I shall describe. It consists of six pieces of wood: two of these =
are strong forked sticks, one of which is formed to fix on the shoulders =
of the horse; the other is adapted to the lower part of the back: they =
are connected by four flat pieces, each about four inches in breadth: =
two of these are so placed as to lie on each side of the backbone of the =
horse, which rises above them; the two others are fastened to the =
extremities of the forked sticks, and the whole is firmly tied by =
thongs. Two strong slips of buffalo hide are doubled over each of the =
upper connecting pieces, for the purpose of holding [137] the stirrup, =
which is formed of a stick about two feet long, and cut half way through =
in two places, so as to divide it into three equal parts: at these =
places it is bent, and when the two ends are strongly tied, it forms an =
equilateral triangle. The conjunct end of the foremost forked stick =
rises to the height of eight or ten inches above the back of the horse, =
and serves to fasten on it the coiled end of the long slip of dried skin =
intended to serve as a bridle: this slip is also made use of to fasten =
the horse at night, to allow him sufficient space wherein to graze, and =
is mostly fifty or sixty feet long. Under the saddle is laid a square =
piece of buffalo skin, dressed with the hair upon it, and doubled =
four-fold, and on the saddle the rider fixes his blanket.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>While doing a little research about =
stirrups I=20
found an interesting description of the saddle that Bradbury used =
leaving the=20
Arikera villages.  This might be a bit primitive for 1837 but it =
was=20
probably very close to what many of the trappers who were lucky enough =
to ride,=20
rode in the early days.  By the way he had spent enough hours at a =
trot to=20
give him pain in any saddle, so don't be to quick to judge it=20
harshly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Crazy or others.  Does this sound =
like a=20
chicken snare saddle that was not supposed to be available until after =
the fur=20
trade?  Also note that only the pommel is stated to be high.  =
Perhaps=20
here is some documentation for womens saddles to not be death=20
traps.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<H1><FONT size=3D2>TRAVELS <BR">IN <BR>THE INTERIOR OF =
AMERICA,</FONT><BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>IN THE <BR>YEARS 1809,1810, AND 1811;</FONT></H1>
<H3><FONT size=3D2>Second Edition</FONT></H3>
<H2><FONT size=3D2>BY JOHN BRADBURY, F.L.S. =
LONDON </FONT></H2></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>I had already painfully experienced the effects of an Indian =
saddle, which=20
I shall describe. It consists of six pieces of wood: two of these are =
strong=20
forked sticks, one of which is formed to fix on the shoulders of the =
horse; the=20
other is adapted to the lower part of the back: they are connected by =
four flat=20
pieces, each about four inches in breadth: two of these are so placed as =
to lie=20
on each side of the backbone of the horse, which rises above them; the =
two=20
others are fastened to the extremities of the forked sticks, and the =
whole is=20
firmly tied by thongs. Two strong slips of buffalo hide are doubled over =
each of=20
the upper connecting pieces, for the purpose of holding [137] the =
<BLINK><FONT=20
color=3D#ff0000>stirrup</FONT></BLINK><A name=3DHEREHEREHERE></A>, which =
is formed=20
of a stick about two feet long, and cut half way through in two places, =
so as to=20
divide it into three equal parts: at these places it is bent, and when =
the two=20
ends are strongly tied, it forms an equilateral triangle. The conjunct =
end of=20
the foremost forked stick rises to the height of eight or ten inches =
above the=20
back of the horse, and serves to fasten on it the coiled end of the long =
slip of=20
dried skin intended to serve as a bridle: this slip is also made use of =
to=20
fasten the horse at night, to allow him sufficient space wherein to =
graze, and=20
is mostly fifty or sixty feet long. Under the saddle is laid a square =
piece of=20
buffalo skin, dressed with the hair upon it, and doubled four-fold, and =
on the=20
saddle the rider fixes his blanket.</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 09 Sep 2003 22:10:23 -0600

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Re: Saddle BagsA Small correction already that should have been:


  Louis
  We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new to you.  I do not =
see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc.  I do  NOT  see the western =
stirrup which as you know is upside down in construction to the ones the =
Indains built. =20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A Small correction already that should =
have=20
been:</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Louis</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not =
new to=20
  you.  I do not see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc.  =
I=20
  do  NOT  see the western stirrup which as you know is =
upside=20
  down in construction to the ones the Indains built. =20
</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules
Date: 09 Sep 2003 22:29:03 -0600

 Wynn,

So that's how you got trench mouth!

Todd

On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:46:52 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> > You are right, that little darling mule of yours was a sweetheart,
> and a
> > fine pack critter.  Tempermental though, I reckon...... why, I
> recall that
> > rodeo that she gave you on our beaver camp a couple of years ago.
> Course,
> > you don't recall much of that short ride after landing on your
> head!  Sure
> > glad you missed the rock!
> >
>
> If I remember right, at the time you were more concerned that I had
> dug the
> trench with the wrong tool.  I remember you saying "Hell, Wynn you
> coulda
> barrowed a shovel, you didn't need to use your head to dig that
> trench."
>
> Wynn
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 09 Sep 2003 22:43:57 -0600

This message is in MIME format.  Since your mail reader does not understand
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Wynn,

Once again we are faced with the same question that dogs most if not all
our research. Does lack of evidence prove it existed or didn't exist? Now
we must apply some common sense to the question.
Did they sell saddle trees with nothing on them? Would the new trapper
leave St Lou with a tree tied on with ropes? If not, then how much
rigging was applied? Cinch and stirrup leathers only? The Dragoon saddles
of 1812 had a suspended leather seat with a quilted pad over that. Looks
pretty comfortable.
Is it unreasonable to think that saddle makers might have thrown a half
seat on a tree to make it a might more comfy? I realize my conjecture is
only that.

Also, as much as I like to use Miller as a source, I don't allow myself
to begin to limit myself to to only consulting his paintings.

Keep up the research

Todd

On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
writes:



One question I have for one & all, which came up again during one of my
presentations at the Fort.  Tapaderos:  Monkey Face and Bat Wing.  Can
anybody tell me which one is, and which one is not ... period (pre
1840)?.

Hooah
Louis


Louis
We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new to you.  I do not see
tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc.  I do see the western stirrup
which as you know is upside down in construction to the ones the Indains
built.  I believe that modern saddlemakers like Bob Schmitt tried to
blend what was actually known with what the customers were used to seeing
and what was available, so their saddles would sell.  That is why we have
the buckskinner look we have today.

Taps-- You can probably find them on military saddles pre 1840 or Mexican
saddles but show me any evidence of them in the mountains.

Big finished leather saddlebags--  Refer to Crazy's post earlier.

Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- English irons are not all
that bad to use.  I have been using them now for over two years but they
do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle tree.  Indian stirrups are
not readily available, but maybe some enterprising fellow could fix that.

Seats or half seats-- Why would all those mountianeers put epishmores or
blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat
already.  Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a covering like a
mochilla.

Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything resembling an english saddle
yet the secondary sources I have seen say they were more common than the
Spanish saddles.

Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am sorry.  I aint perfect either,
my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings much more than Millers.  Still lets be
honest if we color authenticity.  Black and white or shades of grey it
all adds up.  By next year maybe we will have a saddle that represents
everything known to be the typical mountain saddle, but it did not hang
on our rack this year.  Perhaps ten or twenty years from now the new guys
will roll their eyes at our hookey soft horse equipment and call it all
hollywood.

Wynn Ormond
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Wynn,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Once again we are faced with the same question that dogs most if =
not=20
all our research. Does lack of evidence prove it existed or didn't exist? =
Now we=20
must apply some common sense to the question. </DIV>
<DIV>Did they sell saddle trees with nothing on them? Would the new trapper=
=20
leave St Lou with a tree tied on with ropes? If not, then how much rigging =
was=20
applied? Cinch and stirrup leathers only? The Dragoon saddles of 1812 had a=
=20
suspended leather seat with a quilted pad over that. Looks pretty=20
comfortable.</DIV>
<DIV>Is it unreasonable to think that saddle makers might have thrown a =
half=20
seat on a tree to make it a might more comfy? I realize my conjecture is =
only=20
that. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Also, as much as I like to use Miller as a source, I don't allow=20
myself  to begin to limit myself to to only consulting his paintings.<=
/DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Keep up the research</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Todd</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px =
solid">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>=
  <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Louis=
=20
  Lasater</A> </DIV><BR>One question I have for one & all, which came =
up=20
  again during one of my presentations at the Fort.  Tapaderos:=20
   Monkey Face and Bat Wing.  Can anybody tell me which one is, =
and=20
  which one is not ... period (pre=20
1840)?.<BR><BR>Hooah<BR>Louis<BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Louis</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new =
to=20
  you.  I do not see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc.  I =
do see=20
  the western stirrup which as you know is upside down in construction to =
the=20
  ones the Indains built.  I believe that modern saddlemakers like Bob=
=20
  Schmitt tried to blend what was actually known with what the customers =
were=20
  used to seeing and what was available, so their saddles would sell. =
 That=20
  is why we have the buckskinner look we have today.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Taps-- You can probably find them on military saddles=
 pre=20
  1840 or Mexican saddles but show me any evidence of them in the=20
  mountains.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Big finished leather saddlebags--  Refer to =
Crazy's=20
  post earlier.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- English =
irons=20
  are not all that bad to use.  I have been using them now for over =
two=20
  years but they do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle tree.  =
Indian=20
  stirrups are not readily available, but maybe some enterprising fellow =
could=20
  fix that.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Seats or half seats-- Why would all those =
mountianeers put=20
  epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy =
leather=20
  seat already.  Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a =
covering=20
  like a mochilla.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything resembling=
 an=20
  english saddle yet the secondary sources I have seen say they were =
more=20
  common than the Spanish saddles.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am sorry. =
=20
  I aint perfect either, my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings much =
more=20
  than Millers.  Still lets be honest if we color authenticity.  =
Black=20
  and white or shades of grey it all adds up.  By next year maybe we =
will=20
  have a saddle that represents everything known to be the typical =
mountain=20
  saddle, but it did not hang on our rack this year.  Perhaps ten or =
twenty=20
  years from now the new guys will roll their eyes at our hookey soft horse=
=20
  equipment and call it all hollywood.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Wynn Ormond</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-=
LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> </BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

----__JNP_000_5f92.2176.1a14--


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 09 Sep 2003 23:35:08 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C3772B.015BD340
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Re: Saddle BagsTodd wrote:
Once again we are faced with the same question that dogs most if not all =
our research. Does lack of evidence prove it existed or didn't exist? =
Now we must apply some common sense to the question

Todd thank you again for the use of your fire at Bridger.  Your =
leadership and your camp was much appreciated.  To the point. =20

What it proves is it aint documented.  At least until it can be.  What I =
present is not lack of evidence, it is evidence that comfortable seats =
built on Spanish saddles  did not exist.  It aint the last word on the =
subject by any means and requires some assumpting, but it sure makes =
sense even if not the common type.   =20

Todd
Did they sell saddle trees with nothing on them? Would the new trapper =
leave St Lou with a tree tied on with ropes? If not, then how much =
rigging was applied? Cinch and stirrup leathers only? The Dragoon =
saddles of 1812 had a suspended leather seat with a quilted pad over =
that. Looks pretty comfortable.
Is it unreasonable to think that saddle makers might have thrown a half =
seat on a tree to make it a might more comfy? I realize my conjecture is =
only that.=20

If memory serves me correctly it was a military saddle that lead the =
writers of Man Made Mobile to conjecture that trees were bare since =
those military saddles fell to pieces within a year of service.  A new =
saddle may not look like one that had been in service a while. As to =
half seats, I can not even remember seeing them on old cowboy or Mexican =
saddles.  Can someone help me with this one?  Were they even present =
before 1970? =20


Todd
Also, as much as I like to use Miller as a source, I don't allow myself  =
to begin to limit myself to to only consulting his paintings.

I hear you on that one.  That is partly why I went with a Kurtz style =
saddle tree.  That and the money.  Still for the most part, what I am =
writing about is not limited to Miller.  Others drew them and many =
talked about them.  Are we ignoring the clear evidence and justifying =
speculation and if so why?

Wynn=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Todd Glover=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 10:43 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags


  Wynn,

  .=20
  Keep up the research

  Todd

  On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]> =
writes:


    From: Louis Lasater=20

    One question I have for one & all, which came up again during one of =
my presentations at the Fort.  Tapaderos:  Monkey Face and Bat Wing.  =
Can anybody tell me which one is, and which one is not ... period (pre =
1840)?.

    Hooah
    Louis


    Louis
    We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new to you.  I do =
not see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc.  I do see the western =
stirrup which as you know is upside down in construction to the ones the =
Indains built.  I believe that modern saddlemakers like Bob Schmitt =
tried to blend what was actually known with what the customers were used =
to seeing and what was available, so their saddles would sell.  That is =
why we have the buckskinner look we have today.

    Taps-- You can probably find them on military saddles pre 1840 or =
Mexican saddles but show me any evidence of them in the mountains.

    Big finished leather saddlebags--  Refer to Crazy's post earlier.

    Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- English irons are not =
all that bad to use.  I have been using them now for over two years but =
they do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle tree.  Indian stirrups =
are not readily available, but maybe some enterprising fellow could fix =
that.

    Seats or half seats-- Why would all those mountianeers put =
epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy =
leather seat already.  Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a =
covering like a mochilla.

    Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything resembling an english =
saddle yet the secondary sources I have seen say they were more common =
than the Spanish saddles.

    Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am sorry.  I aint perfect =
either, my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings much more than Millers.  =
Still lets be honest if we color authenticity.  Black and white or =
shades of grey it all adds up.  By next year maybe we will have a saddle =
that represents everything known to be the typical mountain saddle, but =
it did not hang on our rack this year.  Perhaps ten or twenty years from =
now the new guys will roll their eyes at our hookey soft horse equipment =
and call it all hollywood.

    Wynn Ormond





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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Todd wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Once again we are faced with the same question that dogs =
most if not=20
all our research. Does lack of evidence prove it existed or didn't =
exist? Now we=20
must apply some common sense to the question</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Todd thank you again for the use of =
your fire at=20
Bridger.  Your leadership and your camp was much appreciated.  =
To the=20
point.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What it proves is it aint =
documented.  At=20
least until it can be.  What I present is not lack of evidence, it =
is=20
evidence that comfortable seats built on =
Spanish saddles  did not=20
exist.  It aint the last word on the subject by any means and =
requires=20
some assumpting, but it sure makes sense even if not the =
common=20
type.    </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Todd</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Did they sell saddle trees with nothing on them? Would the new =
trapper=20
leave St Lou with a tree tied on with ropes? If not, then how much =
rigging was=20
applied? Cinch and stirrup leathers only? The Dragoon saddles of 1812 =
had a=20
suspended leather seat with a quilted pad over that. Looks pretty=20
comfortable.</DIV>
<DIV>Is it unreasonable to think that saddle makers might have thrown a =
half=20
seat on a tree to make it a might more comfy? I realize my conjecture is =
only=20
that. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If memory serves me correctly it was a =
military=20
saddle that lead the writers of Man Made Mobile to conjecture that trees =
were=20
bare since those military saddles fell to pieces within a year of =
service. =20
A new saddle may not look like one that had been in service a =
while. As to=20
half seats, I can not even remember seeing them on old cowboy or Mexican =

saddles.  Can someone help me with this one?  Were they even =
present=20
before 1970?  </FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Todd</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Also, as much as I like to use Miller as a source, I don't allow=20
myself  to begin to limit myself to to only consulting his =
paintings.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I hear you on that one.  That is =
partly why I=20
went with a Kurtz style saddle tree.  That and the money.  =
Still for=20
the most part, what I am writing about is not limited to =
Miller. =20
Others drew them and many talked about them.  Are we ignoring =
the=20
clear evidence and justifying speculation and if so why?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Todd =
Glover</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 09, =
2003 10:43=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Fw: =
Saddle=20
  Bags</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Wynn,</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV>. </DIV>
  <DIV>Keep up the research</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Todd</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" <<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>> =
writes:</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 =
2px solid">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Louis=20
    Lasater</A> </DIV><BR>One question I have for one & all, which =
came up=20
    again during one of my presentations at the Fort.  Tapaderos:=20
     Monkey Face and Bat Wing.  Can anybody tell me which one =
is, and=20
    which one is not ... period (pre=20
    1840)?.<BR><BR>Hooah<BR>Louis<BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Louis</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not =
new to=20
    you.  I do not see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin =
etc.  I do=20
    see the western stirrup which as you know is upside down in =
construction to=20
    the ones the Indains built.  I believe that modern saddlemakers =
like=20
    Bob Schmitt tried to blend what was actually known with what the =
customers=20
    were used to seeing and what was available, so their saddles would=20
    sell.  That is why we have the buckskinner look we have=20
    today.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Taps-- You can probably find them on military =
saddles pre=20
    1840 or Mexican saddles but show me any evidence of them in the=20
    mountains.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Big finished leather saddlebags--  Refer to =
Crazy's=20
    post earlier.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- =
English irons=20
    are not all that bad to use.  I have been using them now for =
over two=20
    years but they do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle =
tree. =20
    Indian stirrups are not readily available, but maybe some =
enterprising=20
    fellow could fix that.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Seats or half seats-- Why would all those =
mountianeers put=20
    epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy =
leather=20
    seat already.  Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a =
covering=20
    like a mochilla.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything =
resembling an=20
    english saddle yet the secondary sources I have seen say they =
were more=20
    common than the Spanish saddles.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am =
sorry. =20
    I aint perfect either, my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings =
much=20
    more than Millers.  Still lets be honest if we color=20
    authenticity.  Black and white or shades of grey it all adds =
up. =20
    By next year maybe we will have a saddle that represents =
everything=20
    known to be the typical mountain saddle, but it did not hang on our =
rack=20
    this year.  Perhaps ten or twenty years from now the new guys =
will roll=20
    their eyes at our hookey soft horse equipment and call it all=20
    hollywood.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Wynn Ormond</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> </BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 10 Sep 2003 02:54:03 EDT


--part1_34.3edfb41d.2c90248b_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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 Wynn

In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to
trade for horses.
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican
saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all
that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground seats
and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They Saddled The
West"
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to
me to be Monkey Face  tapaderos on it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me the
pictures.
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not
done some homework be for making there saddles.
  Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their
saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortable
bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I do so
they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.
See on the trail
Crazy Cyot





>
>



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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2> Wynn</FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>
<BR>In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis=20=
to trade for horses.
<BR>Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexi=
can saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be=20=
all that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the gro=
und seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They Sa=
ddled The West"
<BR>There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like=
 to me to be Monkey Face  tapaderos on it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson who s=
ent me the pictures.
<BR>I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have no=
t done some homework be for making there saddles.
<BR>  Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over=20=
their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?
<BR>For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfort=
able bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then=20=
I do so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.=20
<BR>See on the trail
<BR>Crazy Cyot
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN=
-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: chiggers
Date: 10 Sep 2003 08:12:54 -0500

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    I have a small farm and wear shorts all summer. Chiggers are a big =
part of my summer farming 'experience'. While most of the commercial =
repellants do work all right, the problem is remembering to use them.
    I collect a lot of chiggers and have learned to just suffer it =
through until cool weather.
    But there is another solution. I'm selling the farm.
Frank
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>    I have a small farm and wear shorts all summer. =
Chiggers=20
are a big part of my summer farming 'experience'. While most of the =
commercial=20
repellants do work all right, the problem is remembering to use =
them.</DIV>
<DIV>    I collect a lot of chiggers and have learned to =
just=20
suffer it through until cool weather.</DIV>
<DIV>    But there is another solution. I'm selling the=20
farm.</DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Ole Jensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 10 Sep 2003 07:55:58 -0600

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Crazy,
You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style
saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged)
from Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis
Ole
 Wynn

In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to
trade for horses.
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican
saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all
that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground
seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They
Saddled The West"
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to
me to be Monkey Face  tapaderos on it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me
the pictures.
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not
done some homework be for making there saddles.
 Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their
saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortable
bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I do
so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.
See on the trail
Crazy Cyot













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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
Crazy,<BR>
You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style s=
addles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged) f=
rom Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis<BR>
Ole<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"> Wynn</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> <BR>
<BR>
In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to =
trade for horses. <BR>
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican=
 saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all=
 that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground=
 seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They =
Saddled The West" <BR>
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to=
 me to be Monkey Face  tapaderos on it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson who=
 sent me the pictures. <BR>
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not d=
one some homework be for making there saddles. <BR>
  Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over the=
ir saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?  <BR>
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortabl=
e bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I d=
o so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also. <BR>
See on the trail <BR>
Crazy Cyot <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>


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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 09 Sep 2003 13:31:28 -0700

Hawk,

Well I know I am going to spray down my cloths and bedding with that
permethrin something fierce before my next late summer outing. From what
they say and what others testify to, the stuff works.

Capt. L

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:03 AM


> cpt L
> seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for
> deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed
> ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i
> washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered
> with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year
> here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick
> grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what
> we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed
> cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny
> buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers---
>
>
> "Hawk"
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 10 Sep 2003 11:41:44 -0500



Back about '78 I acquired a set of saddle bags from Tater who got them from
Tom Wright(?) of Ohio Village who researched and reproduced them down to
the number of stitches per inch as 1812 Dragoon Saddle Bags.  They are
large and commodious and still serve me well.

I do think self-made trap sacks/market wallets/colonial wallets of canvas,
linen and various leather in a variety of sizes were much more common than
what we consider "saddle bags".


John...



If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
john <[e-mail]>

Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit of the
American Mountain Men
http://amm-auction.com/


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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 10 Sep 2003 11:57:17 -0600

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Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle BagsDon't mis-quote me to say the Spanish =
saddles were not available.  They obviously were.  But both saddles =
articles in the B of B claim that flat saddles were much  more common.  =
Did we have one on our rack?  I have talked to Lious and others who have =
told me that Bob Schmitt did not claim to have a great deal of research =
behind his saddles.  That is not to pick on him but to say that it was =
not his forte.  He build saddles, with the time I spend arguing on the =
intenet.

The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is clearly an artists drawing of =
a saddle.  The signiture looks more like the kind you see on modern =
drawings.  I will have to do more research but if you are putting =
together a book about saddles and you can't find old drawing to =
illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some.  The drawings show =
buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back cinches.  I =
find it hard to believe these were period and in common practise.  This =
is just my speculation.  Perhaps they are historical drawings but I have =
my doubts.  Even in these drawing I do not see half seats. =20

Using the spot between your ass and the saddle for a storage unit for =
bedding is possible, Crazy but I think your stretching it.  The more =
time they spent setting a horse the less padding they probably used. =20

Bottom line -- You can't put taps, western stirrups or half seats in the =
mountains and there is a perfectly acceptable alternatives you can.

Wynn  =20




  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Ole Jensen=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:55 AM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags


  Crazy,
  You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish =
style saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles =
(fully riged) from Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis
  Ole

    Wynn=20

    In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi =
Shoshonis to trade for horses.=20
    Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them =
Mexican saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would =
not be all that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same =
for the ground seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In =
the Book "They Saddled The West"=20
    There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks =
like to me to be Monkey Face  tapaderos on it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson =
who sent me the pictures.=20
    I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt =
have not done some homework be for making there saddles.=20
     Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over =
their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already? =20
    For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more =
comfortable bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the =
saddle then I do so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.=20
    See on the trail=20
    Crazy Cyot=20
















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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don't mis-quote me to say the Spanish =
saddles were=20
not available.  They obviously were.  But both saddles =
articles in the=20
B of B claim that flat saddles were much  more common.  Did we =
have=20
one on our rack?  I have talked to Lious and others who have told =
me that=20
Bob Schmitt did not claim to have a great deal of research behind his=20
saddles.  That is not to pick on him but to say that it was not his =

forte.  He build saddles, with the time I spend arguing on the=20
intenet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The picture that Crazy forwarded to me =
is clearly=20
an artists drawing of a saddle.  The signiture looks more like the =
kind you=20
see on modern drawings.  I will have to do more research but if you =
are=20
putting together a book about saddles and you can't find old drawing to=20
illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some.  The drawings =
show=20
buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back cinches.  =
I find=20
it hard to believe these were period and in common practise.  This =
is just=20
my speculation.  Perhaps they are historical drawings but I have my =

doubts.  Even in these drawing I do not see half=20
seats.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Using the spot between your ass =
and=20
the saddle for a storage unit for bedding is possible, Crazy but I =
think=20
your stretching it.  The more time they spent setting a horse the =
less=20
padding they probably used.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bottom line -- You can't put taps, =
western stirrups=20
or half seats in the mountains and there is a perfectly acceptable =
alternatives=20
you can.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn   </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Ole=20
  Jensen</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 10, =
2003 7:55=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Fw: =
Saddle=20
  Bags</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>Crazy,<BR>You are right on! Man Made Mobile =
also=20
  documents the use of spanish style saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. =

  purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged) from Grimsley Saddle Co. in =
St.=20
  Louis<BR>Ole<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2>Wynn</FONT><FONT face=3DArial> <BR><BR>In =
Lewis and=20
    Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to trade =
for=20
    horses. <BR>Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it =
seems=20
    them Mexican saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. =
So I=20
    would not be all that quick to rule out their use here in the =
mountains.=20
    Same for the ground seats and tapaderos for they were in use back =
then. In=20
    the Book "They Saddled The West" <BR>There is a picture of a Spanish =
saddle=20
    ca. 1800 that has what looks like to me to be Monkey Face =
 tapaderos on=20
    it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me the pictures. <BR>I =
would not be=20
    to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not done some =

    homework be for making there saddles. <BR> Why would all those=20
    mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they =
had a=20
    nice comfy leather seat already?  <BR>For the same reason I put =
a lot=20
    under my saddle makes for a more comfortable bed at night. I guess =
they=20
    spent a little more time in the saddle then I do so they wanted a =
more=20
    comfortable seat to sit on also. <BR>See on the trail <BR>Crazy Cyot =

    <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR></FONT></FONT>
    <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D2><BR></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
    =
size=3D2><BR><BR></FONT></FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY><=
/HTML>

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From: dnelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 10 Sep 2003 17:57:58 -0700

Wynn Ormond wrote:

>  The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is clearly an artists drawing
> of a saddle.  The signiture looks more like the kind you see on modern
> drawings.  I will have to do more research but if you are putting
> together a book about saddles and you can't find old drawing to
> illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some.  The drawings
> show buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back
> cinches.  I find it hard to believe these were period and in common
> practise.  This is just my speculation.  Perhaps they are historical
> drawings but I have my doubts.  Even in these drawing I do not see
> half seats.

The drawing that you are talking about was done by G. R. Vernam, one of
the authors of the book They Saddle the West.  Drawings are used by used
both anthropologists and archaeologists because they show better what
they are trying to show than a photo can.  Archaeologists draw the
recovered artifacts, not for you and me to look at, but so other
researchers can see the artifact better.  The Smithsonian book The Horse
in Blackfoot Indian Culture uses line drawing the same way that Vernam
used them in his book.  Does that make the book of less value for
research.  You said there are buckles on that saddle Vernam drew,
however I see no buckles on the saddle that is pictured.  It's possible
to find lots more pictures (photos and or drawings) of Mexican saddles
if we must, but I think we all know what they look like.  Were they used
widely.  Lets see what the Smithsoinan has to say about that.  The Horse
in Blackfoot Indian Culture on page 94, note number 52 regarding the
text.  "Other Plains and Plateau tribes appear to have followed the
practice of using Spanish or American saddles whenever they could
procure them.  Lewis and Clark found some Spanish saddles among the
Lemhi Shoshoni in 1805.  (Coues, 1893, vol. 2 pp. 520, 569).  Jacpues
d'Eglise reported "saddles ...... in Mexican style" used by the Mandan
in 1792 (Nasitir, 1927, p. 58).  Scattered through the records of the
American Fur Co. (papers in the N. Y. Historical Society) are listings
of saddles bought by Pratte, Choutear and Co. of St. Louis.  Sufficient
quantities are listed to indicate that the saddles were purchased for
the Indian trade and not merely for the use of field employees of the
company.  Maximilian (1833) said that the Mandan 'sometimes obtain
saddles from the whites, which they line and ornament with red and blue
cloth' (Maximillian, 1906, vol. 23 p. 345).  These may have been the
California saddle type, which Marcy termed the favorite of the mountain
men (Marcy, 1859,  pp. 118-120), and which seems to have been pictured
in a number of Kurs' drawings of  fur traders and a few Indians of the
Upper Missouri in 1851-52 (Kurtz 1937)."    Ewers also says in the same
book on page 93 "We know the Piegan were familiar with Spanish saddles
at least as early as 1787, when David Thompson saw a number of saddles a
Piegan war party had brouight back from a raid on a Spanish party far to
the south (Thompson, 1916, p. 371).   He goes on to say in the same book
that the Indians tried to adopt as much of the white man's saddlery as
they could afford.  If they couldn't afford a trade saddle, perhaps
(Ewer's words, not mine) they could at least aquire strong, long wearing
trade materials for rigging their own native saddles.  Hmmmmm.  That
sounds like perhaps buckles and cinch rings and other metal objects as
well as comerical tanned riggin.  As Gomer Pyle would say, "Gol---ly".
At anyrate, it took me a lot less time to find this information than it
did to type it out, so I don't intend to do it very often.  From this
knowledge that I just aquired from the Smithsonian Bureau of American
Ethonology I have arrived at a humble opinion that there were quite a
few Spanish, Mexican and or California saddles in the mountains.
Furthermore, I would expect that there were also numbers of American
(flat, what we now call English) saddles there at the same time.  So
there wouldn't be a thing wrong with riding a flat saddle with iron
stirrups, or as far as that goes, an Indian pad saddle with iron
stirrups.  What about tapaderos?  Well, I reckon that if Spanish/Mexican
saddles were made with any style of tapedero, I expect being connected
to the saddle they made it to the mountains also.  That is, unless the
Smithsonian doesn't know what they are talking about, then all bets are
off.  One more thing.  Do you ride your horse with a bit, or a rope to
the jaw?  What kind of a bit?  I'd say bit and bridle styles could cause
more discussion than something as simple as taps or hooded stirrups.
Dale Nelson
Roseburg, OR


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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM on-line auction
Date: 10 Sep 2003 18:33:55 -0700

Brothers, Take a look at the auction site. www.amm-auction.com Buck has
done some nice updating, and added some items to the Fall Auction. The
Summer auction closes in less than 48 hours. There is some nice plunder
there at reasonable prices. Check it out, post your bids right on the site.
After the auction closes, high bidders will be notified, and after a check
is sent I'll send the item to the high bidder. Check it out.!.!.! Yfab,
Randy


Randal Bublitz
[e-mail]
"Life is short, paddle hard..."



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From: Ole Jensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 10 Sep 2003 19:32:41 -0600

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Wynn,
You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say.
Ole
Don't mis-quote me to say the Spanish saddles were not available.  They
obviously were.  But both saddles articles in the B of B claim that flat
saddles were much  more common.  Did we have one on our rack?  I have talked
to Lious and others who have told me that Bob Schmitt did not claim to have
a great deal of research behind his saddles.  That is not to pick on him but
to say that it was not his forte.  He build saddles, with the time I spend
arguing on the intenet.

The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is clearly an artists drawing of a
saddle.  The signiture looks more like the kind you see on modern drawings.
I will have to do more research but if you are putting together a book about
saddles and you can't find old drawing to illistrate your work you hire an
artist to draw some.  The drawings show buckle type cinches and full rigged
saddles without back cinches.  I find it hard to believe these were period
and in common practise.  This is just my speculation.  Perhaps they are
historical drawings but I have my doubts.  Even in these drawing I do not
see half seats.

Using the spot between your ass and the saddle for a storage unit for
bedding is possible, Crazy but I think your stretching it.  The more time
they spent setting a horse the less padding they probably used.

Bottom line -- You can't put taps, western stirrups or half seats in the
mountains and there is a perfectly acceptable alternatives you can.

Wynn




----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:55 AM

Crazy,
You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style
saddles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged)
from Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis
Ole
Wynn

In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to
trade for horses.
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican
saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all
that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground
seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They
Saddled The West"
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to
me to be Monkey Face  tapaderos on it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson who sent me
the pictures.
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not
done some homework be for making there saddles.
Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their
saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortable
bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I do
so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also.
See on the trail
Crazy Cyot















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Wynn,<BR>
You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say.<BR>
Ole<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Don't mis-quote me to say the=
 Spanish saddles were not available.  They obviously were.  But bo=
th saddles articles in the B of B claim that flat saddles were much  mo=
re common.  Did we have one on our rack?  I have talked to Lious a=
nd others who have told me that Bob Schmitt did not claim to have a great de=
al of research behind his saddles.  That is not to pick on him but to s=
ay that it was not his forte.  He build saddles, with the time I spend =
arguing on the intenet.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">The picture that Crazy forwarded to me is=
 clearly an artists drawing of a saddle.  The signiture looks more like=
 the kind you see on modern drawings.  I will have to do more research =
but if you are putting together a book about saddles and you can't find old =
drawing to illistrate your work you hire an artist to draw some.  The d=
rawings show buckle type cinches and full rigged saddles without back cinche=
s.  I find it hard to believe these were period and in common practise.=
  This is just my speculation.  Perhaps they are historical drawin=
gs but I have my doubts.  Even in these drawing I do not see half seats=
.  <BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Using the spot between your ass and the s=
addle for a storage unit for bedding is possible, Crazy but I think your str=
etching it.  The more time they spent setting a horse the less padding =
they probably used.  <BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Bottom line -- You can't put taps, wester=
n stirrups or half seats in the mountains and there is a perfectly acceptabl=
e alternatives you can.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Wynn   <BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> Ole Jensen <mailto:[e-mail]>  <BR>
<B>To:</B> [e-mail] <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:55 AM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags<BR>
<BR>
Crazy,<BR>
You are right on! Man Made Mobile also documents the use of spanish style s=
addles. The Rocky Mountain Fur Co. purchased Spanish saddles (fully riged) f=
rom Grimsley Saddle Co. in St. Louis<BR>
Ole<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Wynn</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> <BR>
<BR>
In Lewis and Clark's journals when they met up with the Lemhi Shoshonis to =
trade for horses. <BR>
Guess what they found in there camp? A Spanish saddle it seems them Mexican=
 saddles made it out here before the Mountain Men did. So I would not be all=
 that quick to rule out their use here in the mountains. Same for the ground=
 seats and tapaderos for they were in use back then. In the Book "They =
Saddled The West" <BR>
There is a picture of a Spanish saddle ca. 1800 that has what looks like to=
 me to be Monkey Face  tapaderos on it.  Thanks to Dale Nelson who=
 sent me the pictures. <BR>
I would not be to quick on saying saddle makers like Bob Schmitt have not d=
one some homework be for making there saddles. <BR>
 Why would all those mountaineers put epishmores or blankets over their sad=
dles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already?  <BR>
For the same reason I put a lot under my saddle makes for a more comfortabl=
e bed at night. I guess they spent a little more time in the saddle then I d=
o so they wanted a more comfortable seat to sit on also. <BR>
See on the trail <BR>
Crazy Cyot <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
Date: 10 Sep 2003 20:39:38 -0600

A lot of us in this sport also like good sporting dogs.  I know
Newfoundland retrievers were around pre-1840, as Lewis and Clark brought
one with them (Seabisquit or Seaman?).  One of my favorite stories from
the journals is when the dog made a water retrieve of a wouded deer that
went into the Missouri near Great Falls (MT).  First thing the dog did
is drown the deer, then bring it to shore.  HHHMmmm.  Maybe a bigger one
would retrieve elk?

What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?"  My golden
Retrievers don't fit, the breed wasn't invented until a number of dogs
were cross bred (at least once with bloodhounds) to result in the breed
being established in the late 1800s (1880 or so).

Maybe we need a skill test for dogs...like retrieving wounded deer from
rivers.  By the way, Newfoundlands were bred to retrieve overboard
fisherman off the Grand Banks.

Sparks


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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
Date: 10 Sep 2003 20:26:32 -0700

Sparks, I have a pair of Australian Cattle dogs.  These dogs are also known
as heelers (red and blue).  I have 2, bro and sis, one is a blue the other
a red.  I have by chance a copy of a print by CM Russel 'father desmet's
first meeting with the flathead indians'.  [do a googler search for 'Father
desmet's.... and you'll see this pic]  It show's an indian village with two
dogs in foreground.  I'll be dipped if these dogs don't look just like my
two dogs.  This is my documention for my dogs.  Heelers were bred from
Dingo stock in Australia.  I think many wild dogs have similar features,
etc...  so my heelers look like the dogs Russel saw living with the
indians.  My dogs have done a couple hundred miles of canoe trips, love to
camp with us, tend to stick close by, etc....   There is an australian
cattle dog web site too....check them out.   Randy


>
> What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?"
>
> Sparks
>




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From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers!
Date: 09 Sep 2003 13:31:28 -0700

Hawk,

Well I know I am going to spray down my cloths and bedding with that
permethrin something fierce before my next late summer outing. From what
they say and what others testify to, the stuff works.

Capt. L

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:03 AM


> cpt L
> seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for
> deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed
> ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i
> washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered
> with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year
> here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick
> grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what
> we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed
> cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny
> buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers---
>
>
> "Hawk"
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 10 Sep 2003 22:43:16 -0600

Dale
I will try to over look your Gomer Pyle sarcasm because you have some good
points I was not aware of.



> The drawing that you are talking about was done by G. R. Vernam, one of
> the authors of the book They Saddle the West.  Drawings are used by used
> both anthropologists and archaeologists because they show better what
> they are trying to show than a photo can.

The question is how accurate are the drawings.  I could be proven wrong but
it is my understanding that the buckle type cinch rings are relatively
modern inventions.  The old timers tied the cinch knot.  The saddle Mr
Vernam drew has the buckle type cinch rings.  Also the saddle is full rigged
which without a back cinch can be pretty scary to ride down hills.  The
point being that he may have drawn a generalized picture not a carefully
researched and detailed drawing.  This picture was going to be used to
justify using monkey faced taps.  I am simply pointing out that it just does
not appear to be that great of a source.

 Archaeologists draw the
> recovered artifacts, not for you and me to look at, but so other
> researchers can see the artifact better.  The Smithsonian book The Horse
> in Blackfoot Indian Culture uses line drawing the same way that Vernam
> used them in his book.  Does that make the book of less value for
> research.  You said there are buckles on that saddle Vernam drew,
> however I see no buckles on the saddle that is pictured.  It's possible
> to find lots more pictures (photos and or drawings) of Mexican saddles
> if we must, but I think we all know what they look like.  Were they used
> widely.  Lets see what the Smithsoinan has to say about that.  The Horse
> in Blackfoot Indian Culture on page 94, note number 52 regarding the
> text.  "Other Plains and Plateau tribes appear to have followed the
> practice of using Spanish or American saddles whenever they could
> procure them.  Lewis and Clark found some Spanish saddles among the
> Lemhi Shoshoni in 1805.  (Coues, 1893, vol. 2 pp. 520, 569).  Jacpues
> d'Eglise reported "saddles ...... in Mexican style" used by the Mandan
> in 1792 (Nasitir, 1927, p. 58).  Scattered through the records of the
> American Fur Co. (papers in the N. Y. Historical Society) are listings
> of saddles bought by Pratte, Choutear and Co. of St. Louis.  Sufficient
> quantities are listed to indicate that the saddles were purchased for
> the Indian trade and not merely for the use of field employees of the
> company.  Maximilian (1833) said that the Mandan 'sometimes obtain
> saddles from the whites, which they line and ornament with red and blue
> cloth' (Maximillian, 1906, vol. 23 p. 345).  These may have been the
> California saddle type, which Marcy termed the favorite of the mountain
> men (Marcy, 1859,  pp. 118-120), and which seems to have been pictured
> in a number of Kurs' drawings of  fur traders and a few Indians of the
> Upper Missouri in 1851-52 (Kurtz 1937)."

Once and for all we all know that Spanish style saddles were in the
mountains.  I did not know they were a trade item with the Indians.  They
were rather expensive but I suppose some Indians could probably afford to
buy them as well as raid their way into them.  Is the term "California
style" yours or theirs and what differentiates it from another style?


    Ewers also says in the same
> book on page 93 "We know the Piegan were familiar with Spanish saddles
> at least as early as 1787, when David Thompson saw a number of saddles a
> Piegan war party had brouight back from a raid on a Spanish party far to
> the south (Thompson, 1916, p. 371).   He goes on to say in the same book
> that the Indians tried to adopt as much of the white man's saddlery as
> they could afford.  If they couldn't afford a trade saddle, perhaps
> (Ewer's words, not mine) they could at least aquire strong, long wearing
> trade materials for rigging their own native saddles.  Hmmmmm.  That
> sounds like perhaps buckles and cinch rings and other metal objects as
> well as comerical tanned riggin.  As Gomer Pyle would say, "Gol---ly".
> At anyrate, it took me a lot less time to find this information than it
> did to type it out, so I don't intend to do it very often.

Did you notice the process that Indians had to go through to build a ring
out of rawhide before they got metal rings?  Quite a process.

 From this
> knowledge that I just aquired from the Smithsonian Bureau of American
> Ethonology I have arrived at a humble opinion that there were quite a
> few Spanish, Mexican and or California saddles in the mountains.
> Furthermore, I would expect that there were also numbers of American
> (flat, what we now call English) saddles there at the same time.  So
> there wouldn't be a thing wrong with riding a flat saddle with iron
> stirrups, or as far as that goes, an Indian pad saddle with iron
> stirrups.  What about tapaderos?  Well, I reckon that if Spanish/Mexican
> saddles were made with any style of tapedero, I expect being connected
> to the saddle they made it to the mountains also.  That is, unless the
> Smithsonian doesn't know what they are talking about, then all bets are
> off.

Oh please.

  One more thing.  Do you ride your horse with a bit, or a rope to
> the jaw?  What kind of a bit?  I'd say bit and bridle styles could cause
> more discussion than something as simple as taps or hooded stirrups.

On period rides I use a snaffle or simple curb similar to what you see in
Kurtz and Miller and on the trade lists.  I may someday play with the Indian
rope to the jaw just to try it out. It is probable that early trappers may
have used all Indian gear.   For a bridle I have not seen anything to make
me believe that they did not look very similar to the ones we use today.

Wynn


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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 10 Sep 2003 23:10:02 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle BagsWynn,
You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say.
Ole

I am sorry Ole I will type slower.  No really, I am jumping from subject =
to subject and fighting several different arguments at the same time so =
I apologize if it is hard to follow.

Here is my point.  A year ago on this list folks talked about how =
carefully they documented the stuff in their shooting pouches.  I was =
impressed since I figure its a good place to carry TP and cameras.  At =
Bridger I did the horse gear demo and those saddle don't show anywhere =
near the concern to authenticity.  They don't look like the saddles in =
Miller or Kurtz, or what is written about them in the journals or =
ledgers.  And I can't see why we aren't a bit more concerned about it.  =
It appears more like we are justifying what is being used in  the face =
of evidence to the contrary.  I just don't understand it.=20

Wynn








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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>Wynn,<BR>You=20
ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to=20
say.<BR>Ole</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am sorry Ole I will type =
slower.  No really,=20
I am jumping from subject to subject and fighting several different =
arguments at=20
the same time so I apologize if it is hard to follow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here is my point.  A year ago on =
this list=20
folks talked about how carefully they documented the stuff in their =
shooting=20
pouches.  I was impressed since I figure its a good place to carry =
TP and=20
cameras.  At Bridger I did the horse gear demo and those saddle =
don't show=20
anywhere near the concern to authenticity.  They don't look =
like=20
the saddles in Miller or Kurtz, or what is written about them in =
the=20
journals or ledgers.  And I can't see why we aren't a bit more =
concerned=20
about it.  It appears more like we are justifying what is being =
used=20
in  the face of evidence to the contrary.  I just don't =
understand=20
it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
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style=3D"FONT: 10pt =
arial"><BR> </DIV><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: Ole Jensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 11 Sep 2003 08:02:20 -0600

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Wynn,
My reserch paper was writen on this subject, I sen't it to be published by
Bill but it has gotten lost so I will have to send him a new copy.
The reserch was done with the assistance of the Smithsonian, Millers
drawings and Government archives.
Ole
Wynn,
You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say.
Ole
I am sorry Ole I will type slower.  No really, I am jumping from subject to
subject and fighting several different arguments at the same time so I
apologize if it is hard to follow.

Here is my point.  A year ago on this list folks talked about how carefully
they documented the stuff in their shooting pouches.  I was impressed since
I figure its a good place to carry TP and cameras.  At Bridger I did the
horse gear demo and those saddle don't show anywhere near the concern to
authenticity.  They don't look like the saddles in Miller or Kurtz, or what
is written about them in the journals or ledgers.  And I can't see why we
aren't a bit more concerned about it.  It appears more like we are
justifying what is being used in  the face of evidence to the contrary.  I
just don't understand it.

Wynn










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Wynn,<BR>
My reserch paper was writen on this subject, I sen't it to be published by =
Bill but it has gotten lost so I will have to send him a new copy. <BR>
The reserch was done with the assistance of the Smithsonian, Millers drawin=
gs and Government archives.<BR>
Ole<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman">Wynn,<BR>
You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say.<BR>
Ole<BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I am sorry Ole I will type slower.=
  No really, I am jumping from subject to subject and fighting several =
different arguments at the same time so I apologize if it is hard to follow.=
<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Here is my point.  A year ago on thi=
s list folks talked about how carefully they documented the stuff in their s=
hooting pouches.  I was impressed since I figure its a good place to ca=
rry TP and cameras.  At Bridger I did the horse gear demo and those sad=
dle don't show anywhere near the concern to authenticity.  They don't l=
ook like the saddles in Miller or Kurtz, or what is written about them in th=
e journals or ledgers.  And I can't see why we aren't a bit more concer=
ned about it.  It appears more like we are justifying what is being use=
d in  the face of evidence to the contrary.  I just don't understa=
nd it. <BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Wynn<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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From: "Angela Gottfred" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
Date: 11 Sep 2003 09:22:37 -0600

"Randal Bublitz" [e-mail] wrote:

> I have by chance a copy of a print by CM Russel 'father desmet's first
meeting with the flathead
> indians'.  <...>  This is my documention for my dogs.

Sorry if I'm repeating what other folks have already said; I'm on the
digest version of the list, so I'm a little behind the rest of you.
There is one small problem with using this painting as documentation: It
was made in 1925, 85 years after the event it depicts.
(http://users.skynet.be/pater.de.smet/pj-e/pagina56.htm)
And Russell can't possibly have witnessed it, since he was born in 1864.
(http://www.tfaoi.com/newsmu/nmus26p.htm)

It can be really hard to tell which paintings were made by eyewitnesses
to the fur trade, and which were made well after the fact by historic
artists, especially since many books reproduce them side by side without
even telling you the artist's name. If you do find out the artist's
name, then it takes further research to find out whether they were
painting before or after the fact. I compiled a list of fur trade
artists and fur trade historical artists earlier this year; if you're
interested, it was posted to the files section of the h-voyageur mailing
list (www.groups.yahoo.com/group/h-voyageur). However, I probably missed
Charlie Russell-- I never realized he did any fur trade subjects, he's
best known as the cowboys' artist. So I might do a revision soon.

Your very humble & most obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred




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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
Date: 11 Sep 2003 12:27:05 -0500

Smithsonian magazine had an excellent article on the native dog of America
(and most of the rest of the world it seems) a couple of years back.

John...



At 09:39 PM 9/10/03, you wrote:
>A lot of us in this sport also like good sporting dogs.  I know
>Newfoundland retrievers were around pre-1840, as Lewis and Clark brought
>one with them (Seabisquit or Seaman?).  One of my favorite stories from
>the journals is when the dog made a water retrieve of a wouded deer that
>went into the Missouri near Great Falls (MT).  First thing the dog did is
>drown the deer, then bring it to shore.  HHHMmmm.  Maybe a bigger one
>would retrieve elk?
>
>What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?"  My golden
>Retrievers don't fit, the breed wasn't invented until a number of dogs
>were cross bred (at least once with bloodhounds) to result in the breed
>being established in the late 1800s (1880 or so).
>
>Maybe we need a skill test for dogs...like retrieving wounded deer from
>rivers.  By the way, Newfoundlands were bred to retrieve overboard
>fisherman off the Grand Banks.
>
>Sparks

If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
john <[e-mail]>

Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit of the
American Mountain Men
http://amm-auction.com/


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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
Date: 11 Sep 2003 10:35:46 -0700

Angela,    I realize Charlie's time frame, etc....   I was just offering a
personal antecdote.  Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word documentation.
I didn't get my dogs because of the painting, just thought it was neat that
they look like they could have modeled for the painting.  If you ever get
the chance go to the CM Russell museum in Great Falls, MT.  It is very
interesting.  YMHS,   Randy


> [Original Message]
> From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Date: 9/11/03 8:23:45 AM
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
>
> "Randal Bublitz" [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > I have by chance a copy of a print by CM Russel 'father desmet's first
> meeting with the flathead
> > indians'.  <...>  This is my documention for my dogs.
>
> Sorry if I'm repeating what other folks have already said; I'm on the
> digest version of the list, so I'm a little behind the rest of you.
> There is one small problem with using this painting as documentation: It
> was made in 1925, 85 years after the event it depicts.
> (http://users.skynet.be/pater.de.smet/pj-e/pagina56.htm)
> And Russell can't possibly have witnessed it, since he was born in 1864.
> (http://www.tfaoi.com/newsmu/nmus26p.htm)
>
> It can be really hard to tell which paintings were made by eyewitnesses
> to the fur trade, and which were made well after the fact by historic
> artists, especially since many books reproduce them side by side without
> even telling you the artist's name. If you do find out the artist's
> name, then it takes further research to find out whether they were
> painting before or after the fact. I compiled a list of fur trade
> artists and fur trade historical artists earlier this year; if you're
> interested, it was posted to the files section of the h-voyageur mailing
> list (www.groups.yahoo.com/group/h-voyageur). However, I probably missed
> Charlie Russell-- I never realized he did any fur trade subjects, he's
> best known as the cowboys' artist. So I might do a revision soon.
>
> Your very humble & most obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



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From: "busterize" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs
Date: 11 Sep 2003 15:19:11 -0700

I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough.  Wouldn't have any other
breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed here
so early in this country's history.

Geri



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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs
Date: 11 Sep 2003 15:25:56 -0700

Geri......   I didn't say they did...I just said they look like any wild
dog... as they were bred from dingos.  The ACD wasn't bred until the later
1800's in australia.   They are great dogs.  Randy


> [Original Message]
> From: busterize <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Date: 9/11/03 3:19:18 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs
>
> I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough.  Wouldn't have any
other
> breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed
here
> so early in this country's history.
>
> Geri
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
Date: 11 Sep 2003 17:15:06 -0600 (MDT)

  As I work out of Great Falls, Montana, I can tell you that Charlie
Russell is also know as the indian artist. I'm not the biggest fan of
his, preferring O.C. Seltzer myself, but he was a great artist.
  I read once he did more prints of indians then of any other subject. I'm
pretty sure he was adopted by one of the tribes but don't remember which
one. There is even a photo of him dressed in indian garb.
  I know he drank like he was an indian.
             bb






> Charlie Russell-- I never realized he did any fur trade subjects, he's
> best known as the cowboys' artist. So I might do a revision soon.
>
> Your very humble & most obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred


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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
Date: 11 Sep 2003 17:52:53 -0600


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I love Australian Shephards and have had a couple myself.  One seemingly
purebred and the other blue heeler crossed.
I saw on Discovery TV or some such a few years ago where they talked
about what dogs revert to when they weren't bred for specific physical
characteristics (especially in cities).  They end up being (western)
medium sized dogs with slick hair, they don't bark much, and they only
have one litter a year.  They say that's a worldwide phenomenon (China,
Australia, et c.).  I specified "western" medium size because as I was
preparing to feed what I call a "medium sized" 60-70 pound golden
retriever, I made the mistake of reading the dog food label.  The food
was formulated especially for sporting or active dogs.  I looked up the
medium sized dog serving size and they made the mistake of defining what
THEY called medium sized...35#!  Hell, dogs that small are usually
carried in vest pockets to keep the squirrels from running them ragged!
Sparks


Randal Bublitz wrote:

>Sparks, I have a pair of Australian Cattle dogs.  These dogs are also known
>as heelers (red and blue).  I have 2, bro and sis, one is a blue the other
>a red.  I have by chance a copy of a print by CM Russel 'father desmet's
>first meeting with the flathead indians'.  [do a googler search for 'Father
>desmet's.... and you'll see this pic]  It show's an indian village with two
>dogs in foreground.  I'll be dipped if these dogs don't look just like my
>two dogs.  This is my documention for my dogs.  Heelers were bred from
>Dingo stock in Australia.  I think many wild dogs have similar features,
>etc...  so my heelers look like the dogs Russel saw living with the
>indians.  My dogs have done a couple hundred miles of canoe trips, love to
>camp with us, tend to stick close by, etc....   There is an australian
>cattle dog web site too....check them out.   Randy
>
>
>
>
>>What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?"
>>
>>Sparks
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>


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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
I love Australian Shephards and have had a couple myself.  One seemingly
purebred and the other blue heeler crossed.<br>
I saw on Discovery TV or some such a few years ago where they talked about
what dogs revert to when they weren't bred for specific physical characteristics
(especially in cities).  They end up being (western) medium sized dogs with
slick hair, they don't bark much, and they only have one litter a year.  They
say that's a worldwide phenomenon (China, Australia, et c.).  I specified
"western" medium size because as I was preparing to feed what I call a "medium
sized" 60-70 pound golden retriever, I made the mistake of reading the dog
food label.  The food was formulated especially for sporting or active dogs.
 I looked up the medium sized dog serving size and they made the mistake
of defining what THEY called medium sized...35#!  Hell, dogs that small are
usually carried in vest pockets to keep the squirrels from running them ragged!<br>
Sparks<br>
<br>
<br>
Randal Bublitz wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="[e-mail]">
  <pre wrap="">Sparks, I have a pair of Australian Cattle dogs.  These dogs are also known
as heelers (red and blue).  I have 2, bro and sis, one is a blue the other
a red.  I have by chance a copy of a print by CM Russel 'father desmet's
first meeting with the flathead indians'.  [do a googler search for 'Father
desmet's.... and you'll see this pic]  It show's an indian village with two
dogs in foreground.  I'll be dipped if these dogs don't look just like my
two dogs.  This is my documention for my dogs.  Heelers were bred from
Dingo stock in Australia.  I think many wild dogs have similar features,
etc...  so my heelers look like the dogs Russel saw living with the
indians.  My dogs have done a couple hundred miles of canoe trips, love to
camp with us, tend to stick close by, etc....   There is an australian
cattle dog web site too....check them out.   Randy


  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?"

Sparks

    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->



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  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sparking of Montana...
Date: 11 Sep 2003 17:58:16 -0600

I love Montana, and own property in Idaho near Sacajawea's birthplace
just 10 miles or so as the crow flies over the bitterroot mountains.  As
long as you are touring Montana and looking at paintings (i.e. at the CM
Russel gallery), swing by the State
Capitol in Helena.  I can't remember if it is the House or Senate
chambers, but the 30' high mural they have on the wall is of Custer's
Last Stand!  Is that a political statement, or just coincidence?
Sparks


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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
Date: 11 Sep 2003 17:59:54 -0600

John,
You and I are working from the same database on this one!
sparks

John Kramer wrote:

> Smithsonian magazine had an excellent article on the native dog of
> America (and most of the rest of the world it seems) a couple of years
> back.
>
> John...
>
>
>
> At 09:39 PM 9/10/03, you wrote:
>
>> A lot of us in this sport also like good sporting dogs.  I know
>> Newfoundland retrievers were around pre-1840, as Lewis and Clark
>> brought one with them (Seabisquit or Seaman?).  One of my favorite
>> stories from the journals is when the dog made a water retrieve of a
>> wouded deer that went into the Missouri near Great Falls (MT).  First
>> thing the dog did is drown the deer, then bring it to shore.
>> HHHMmmm.  Maybe a bigger one would retrieve elk?
>>
>> What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?"  My
>> golden Retrievers don't fit, the breed wasn't invented until a number
>> of dogs were cross bred (at least once with bloodhounds) to result in
>> the breed being established in the late 1800s (1880 or so).
>>
>> Maybe we need a skill test for dogs...like retrieving wounded deer
>> from rivers.  By the way, Newfoundlands were bred to retrieve
>> overboard fisherman off the Grand Banks.
>>
>> Sparks
>
>
> If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong.
> john <[e-mail]>
>
> Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit
> of the American Mountain Men
> http://amm-auction.com/
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs
Date: 11 Sep 2003 19:37:25 -0600

Be sure to consult a knowledgeable source before cross breeding.  I
ended up with what I thought might be an ideal duck dog...Australian
Shephard and Golden Retriever.  I was expecting a dog who would round
uup ducks and herd them by me on slow days, then retrieve what I shot.
 My first surprised was the dog's color.  I swear, if she wasn't moving
on the marsh, even if you knew exactly where she was, and even if she
was less than 50 feet away, she would disappear.  Talk about natural
camo! Unfortunately, she neither liked to retrieve nor herd ducks.  I
coulda got rich off that line!
poor sparks

busterize wrote:

>I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough.  Wouldn't have any other
>breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed here
>so early in this country's history.
>
>Geri
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>



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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs
Date: 11 Sep 2003 19:01:53 -0700

Just for clarification.....   Australian cattle dogs are different than
Australian shepards.  The ACD was bred for herding cattle, the sheppard for
herding sheep.  They are both good , hearty dogs, as they were bred to
withstand hard work in the harsh australian outback.    Randy


> [Original Message]
> From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Date: 9/11/03 6:39:47 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs
>
> Be sure to consult a knowledgeable source before cross breeding.  I
> ended up with what I thought might be an ideal duck dog...Australian
> Shephard and Golden Retriever.  I was expecting a dog who would round
> uup ducks and herd them by me on slow days, then retrieve what I shot.
>  My first surprised was the dog's color.  I swear, if she wasn't moving
> on the marsh, even if you knew exactly where she was, and even if she
> was less than 50 feet away, she would disappear.  Talk about natural
> camo! Unfortunately, she neither liked to retrieve nor herd ducks.  I
> coulda got rich off that line!
> poor sparks
>
> busterize wrote:
>
> >I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough.  Wouldn't have any
other
> >breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed
here
> >so early in this country's history.
> >
> >Geri
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 11 Sep 2003 20:37:21 -0600

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Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle BagsOle I have heard about this paper for a =
long time (from you) and I look forward to reading it.

Wynn
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Ole Jensen=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:02 AM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags


  Wynn,
  My reserch paper was writen on this subject, I sen't it to be =
published by Bill but it has gotten lost so I will have to send him a =
new copy.=20
  The reserch was done with the assistance of the Smithsonian, Millers =
drawings and Government archives.
  Ole

    Wynn,
    You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to =
say.
    Ole
    I am sorry Ole I will type slower.  No really, I am jumping from =
subject to subject and fighting several different arguments at the same =
time so I apologize if it is hard to follow.

    Here is my point.  A year ago on this list folks talked about how =
carefully they documented the stuff in their shooting pouches.  I was =
impressed since I figure its a good place to carry TP and cameras.  At =
Bridger I did the horse gear demo and those saddle don't show anywhere =
near the concern to authenticity.  They don't look like the saddles in =
Miller or Kurtz, or what is written about them in the journals or =
ledgers.  And I can't see why we aren't a bit more concerned about it.  =
It appears more like we are justifying what is being used in  the face =
of evidence to the contrary.  I just don't understand it.=20

    Wynn













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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ole I have heard about this paper for a =
long time=20
(from you) and I look forward to reading it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Ole=20
  Jensen</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 11, =
2003 8:02=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Fw: =
Saddle=20
  Bags</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Wynn,<BR>My reserch paper was writen on this subject, I =
sen't=20
  it to be published by Bill but it has gotten lost so I will have to =
send him a=20
  new copy. <BR>The reserch was done with the assistance of the =
Smithsonian,=20
  Millers drawings and Government archives.<BR>Ole<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Wynn,<BR>You ain't makin =
any sence,=20
    I can't follow what you are trying to say.<BR>Ole<BR></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>I am sorry Ole I will type slower. =
 No really,=20
    I am jumping from subject to subject and fighting several different=20
    arguments at the same time so I apologize if it is hard to=20
    follow.<BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Here =
is my point.=20
     A year ago on this list folks talked about how carefully they=20
    documented the stuff in their shooting pouches.  I was =
impressed since=20
    I figure its a good place to carry TP and cameras.  At Bridger =
I did=20
    the horse gear demo and those saddle don't show anywhere near the =
concern to=20
    authenticity.  They don't look like the saddles in Miller or =
Kurtz, or=20
    what is written about them in the journals or ledgers.  And I =
can't see=20
    why we aren't a bit more concerned about it.  It appears more =
like we=20
    are justifying what is being used in  the face of evidence to =
the=20
    contrary.  I just don't understand it. =
<BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT=20
    size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Wynn<BR></FONT></FONT><BR>
    =
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCK=
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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hey Ole!
Date: 11 Sep 2003 20:52:41 -0600

Ole,
Are you the Ole Jensen in the Utah Garrison ALRA, headquartered along
the Wasatch Front?  If so, stand up and wave so I kin see ya.  I'm in N.
Ogden.  I'll likely be at the Oct. 4 ALRA meeting at Ft. Bueneventura,
hope to see you there.
Sparks


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From: Rick Guglielmi <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs
Date: 12 Sep 2003 04:49:32 -0700

Although the Aussie's started to breed domestic dogs with the Dingo in the
1830's it wasn't until the 1870's that the forebears of the Austrailian
Cattle Dog was developed.  I'm not sure when the ACD was brought to
America.  They are tough, loyal, hardheaded (at least mine is),
intelligent.  I have had them for years and can't think of a better
companion when I am out on the trail.

Rick

At 03:25 PM 09/11/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Geri......   I didn't say they did...I just said they look like any wild
>dog... as they were bred from dingos.  The ACD wasn't bred until the later
>1800's in australia.   They are great dogs.  Randy
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: busterize <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Date: 9/11/03 3:19:18 PM
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs
> >
> > I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough.  Wouldn't have any
>other
> > breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed
>here
> > so early in this country's history.
> >
> > Geri
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
>----------------------
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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Broken hand
Date: 12 Sep 2003 08:39:42 -0500

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    I have a friend here in Mountain Home, Arkansas named Tom =
Fitzpatrick. He is a descendant of Tom "Broken Hand" Fitzpatrick.
    Tom (the living one) has been petitioning the Cowboy Hall of Fame in =
Oklahoma City for years to get his ancestor recognized and admitted. =
Finally, they accepted Broken Hand and the induction will be in the near =
future. They accept only three people per year to so honor. And, yes, =
they do recognize more than just cowboys.
    According to Tom, his ancestor was the only one of the mountain men =
trappers to attend both the first and last of the great rendezvous and =
all in between. I cannot verify that but he has studied the subject and =
that is what he told me.
    Time to go back to the books and learn more about this interesting =
mountain man.
Frank
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<DIV>    I have a friend here in Mountain Home, Arkansas =
named=20
Tom Fitzpatrick. He is a descendant of Tom "Broken Hand" =
Fitzpatrick.</DIV>
<DIV>    Tom (the living one) has been petitioning the =
Cowboy=20
Hall of Fame in Oklahoma City for years to get his ancestor recognized =
and=20
admitted. Finally, they accepted Broken Hand and the induction will be =
in the=20
near future. They accept only three people per year to so honor. And, =
yes, they=20
do recognize more than just cowboys.</DIV>
<DIV>    According to Tom, his ancestor was the only one =
of the=20
mountain men trappers to attend both the first and last of the great =
rendezvous=20
and all in between. I cannot verify that but he has studied the subject =
and that=20
is what he told me.</DIV>
<DIV>    Time to go back to the books and learn more =
about this=20
interesting mountain man.</DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Ole Jensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hey Ole!
Date: 12 Sep 2003 07:57:04 -0600

on 9/11/03 8:52 PM, James and Sue Stone at [e-mail] wrote:

> Ole,
> Are you the Ole Jensen in the Utah Garrison ALRA, headquartered along
> the Wasatch Front?  If so, stand up and wave so I kin see ya.  I'm in N.
> Ogden.  I'll likely be at the Oct. 4 ALRA meeting at Ft. Bueneventura,
> hope to see you there.
> Sparks
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
James,
Yes that me, I plan on being at Fort B on the 4th.
Ole


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From: "busterize" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: To Clarify: ACD vs. Aussies
Date: 12 Sep 2003 10:46:04 -0700

Yeah, Randy is correct in saying the Australian Cattle Dog and Australian
Shepherd are different breeds, but both herd. The ACD, as a breed was
actually bred in Australia. The Shepherd's ancestors never saw Australia, as
I believe they are an American-created breed. I've owned both breeds and
they both have great qualities. But after having the longer-haired
shepherds, I'll take the ACD with their short, close, more easily cared-for
coat.

Geri



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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: To Clarify: ACD vs. Aussies
Date: 12 Sep 2003 14:54:29 -0700

Geri,  Thanks for the clarification. Having ACD's I've checked them out.  I
assumed the Aussie shepard was australian....see what happens when we
assume...oh well....  Thanks for setting me straight.   Randy


> [Original Message]
> From: busterize <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Date: 9/12/03 10:46:11 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: To Clarify: ACD vs. Aussies
>
> Yeah, Randy is correct in saying the Australian Cattle Dog and Australian
> Shepherd are different breeds, but both herd. The ACD, as a breed was
> actually bred in Australia. The Shepherd's ancestors never saw Australia,
as
> I believe they are an American-created breed. I've owned both breeds and
> they both have great qualities. But after having the longer-haired
> shepherds, I'll take the ACD with their short, close, more easily
cared-for
> coat.
>
> Geri
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hey Ole!
Date: 12 Sep 2003 16:17:45 -0600


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see you there

Ole Jensen wrote:

>on 9/11/03 8:52 PM, James and Sue Stone at [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
>
>>Ole,
>>Are you the Ole Jensen in the Utah Garrison ALRA, headquartered along
>>the Wasatch Front?  If so, stand up and wave so I kin see ya.  I'm in N.
>>Ogden.  I'll likely be at the Oct. 4 ALRA meeting at Ft. Bueneventura,
>>hope to see you there.
>>Sparks
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>James,
>Yes that me, I plan on being at Fort B on the 4th.
>Ole
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>


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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
see you there <br>
<br>
Ole Jensen wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="[e-mail]">
  <pre wrap="">on 9/11/03 8:52 PM, James and Sue Stone at <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a> wrote:

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Ole,
Are you the Ole Jensen in the Utah Garrison ALRA, headquartered along
the Wasatch Front?  If so, stand up and wave so I kin see ya.  I'm in N.
Ogden.  I'll likely be at the Oct. 4 ALRA meeting at Ft. Bueneventura,
hope to see you there.
Sparks


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    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->James,
Yes that me, I plan on being at Fort B on the 4th.
Ole


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  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: FW: AMM-List: Summer Auction Closed
Date: 12 Sep 2003 16:47:53 -0700



Randal Bublitz
[e-mail]
"Life is short, paddle hard..."


> [Original Message]
> From: Randal Bublitz <[e-mail]>
> To: ammlist <[e-mail]>
> Date: 9/12/03 4:00:21 PM
> Subject: AMM-List: Summer Auction Closed
>
> Brothers,  As of noon today the summer auction is over.  The total bids
> equal $1,203.15.  I'll be e-mailing the high bidders to advise them that
it
> is time to send monies in.  Thank all of you who participated, both
> contributors of items and bidders on these items.  We didn't get the
> response we had hoped for, but we did the best we could. The Fall Auction
> will be open for bidding soon.  There will be great bargains available at

> amm-auction.com   .  The Fall Auction will close Nov. 30, this will allow
> me to get items in the mail in time for Christmas.  For those who bid,
keep
> an eye out for my e-mail advising you of your totals owed.

> Thanks again,
>
>                                      Randy 'hardtack' Bublitz ----   Loan
> Fund Clerk
>
>
> Randal Bublitz
> [e-mail]
> "Life is short, paddle hard..."
>
>
>
> --------------------
> Aux Aliments de Pays!



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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Gourd Horn Saddle Maker
Date: 12 Sep 2003 19:13:32 -0600

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I have not seen anyone with any help for you and I haven't got the info =
you are after.  Perhaps you got it off line.  I would like to hear how =
it goes.  Can you keep us updated?

Wynn Ormond


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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have not seen anyone with any help =
for you and I=20
haven't got the info you are after.  Perhaps you got it off =
line.  I=20
would like to hear how it goes.  Can you keep us =
updated?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn Ormond</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "rroger 47" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 12 Sep 2003 20:26:28 -0700

Crazy,

Please forgive the ramblings of an uneasy mind and a poorer memory.  I
recall reading that L&C saw an iron bit and iron stirrups...but I
disremember them seeing a whole saddle.  But, I haven't got my Journals at
hand so I'll take your word for it.

And, as an aside, since you're up in that country I thought you might be
interested in an obscure reference I dimly recall from an Oh Idaho magazine
out of the early 1970's.  in 1810, the HBC held a big council at the sinks
of the Little Lost.  The chief of the Shoshones was a giant kind of a guy
and they said it took two blankets to make a coat for him...I seem to
remember his name as starting with a P, Peshto?, Peemo?, anyhow, a Snake
name.  The HBC was glad to see the Snakes there as they wanted to form some
kind of alliance and trade.  The Snakes had just returned from a two year
visit with their cousins the Comanches down in Santa Fe country.  I guess
when you take the whole kit and kaboodle it might take two years coming and
going.  So, the upshot of all this rambling is, they certainly could have
traded for a saddle in their travels.  Of course, all Indians was great hoss
theives and there's plenty of chance they could have got it that a way.
Lewis or Clark must have thought the spanish goods worthy of mention anyhow.

Now, before I get flamed on this forum I gotta apologize again for not
having chapter and verse documentation for the above.  Just the ramblings of
a fevered mind.
Taos Pard

_________________________________________________________________
Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage.
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From: Rick Guglielmi <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 13 Sep 2003 05:06:13 -0700

I don't think you are off base on putting out your
recollections/thoughts.  Sometimes there is just not enough time to go and
look up everything that comes over the list.  Usually by the time I search
around for information it can be several weeks and by then the question may
be long past. So I just don't say anything.  I have been rethinking that
and will try and put out my thouhts and info from memoy.  Although I think
you have to make it clear that what you are saying is either something you
have a feeling about or as you stated it was something you read in the past
but could not recall the exact verbage.  At least this gives everyone some
ideas on additional places to look for quality research documetation.  This
doesn't mean I am not looking for information/documatation-that is
something I find myself doing contiually, just that life sometimes gets in
the way and I run out of hours in the day.

Rick

At 08:26 PM 09/12/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Crazy,
>
>Please forgive the ramblings of an uneasy mind and a poorer memory.  I
>recall reading that L&C saw an iron bit and iron stirrups...but I
>disremember them seeing a whole saddle.  But, I haven't got my Journals at
>hand so I'll take your word for it.
>
>And, as an aside, since you're up in that country I thought you might be
>interested in an obscure reference I dimly recall from an Oh Idaho
>magazine out of the early 1970's.  in 1810, the HBC held a big council at
>the sinks of the Little Lost.  The chief of the Shoshones was a giant kind
>of a guy and they said it took two blankets to make a coat for him...I
>seem to remember his name as starting with a P, Peshto?, Peemo?, anyhow, a
>Snake name.  The HBC was glad to see the Snakes there as they wanted to
>form some kind of alliance and trade.  The Snakes had just returned from a
>two year visit with their cousins the Comanches down in Santa Fe
>country.  I guess when you take the whole kit and kaboodle it might take
>two years coming and going.  So, the upshot of all this rambling is, they
>certainly could have traded for a saddle in their travels.  Of course, all
>Indians was great hoss theives and there's plenty of chance they could
>have got it that a way.
>Lewis or Clark must have thought the spanish goods worthy of mention anyhow.
>
>Now, before I get flamed on this forum I gotta apologize again for not
>having chapter and verse documentation for the above.  Just the ramblings
>of a fevered mind.
>Taos Pard
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage.
>http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es
>
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Site Update
Date: 13 Sep 2003 10:01:38 -0400

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Excuse the interruption....
I was in a Hieland frame of mind this week... The new stickers are for =
you Jacobites that know the Bonny Prince will return....

      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

Slainte'
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
       Knives and Iron Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

   "Knowing how is just the beginning."
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Excuse the =
interruption....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I was in a Hieland frame of mind this =
week... The=20
new stickers are for you Jacobites that know the Bonny Prince will=20
return....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>      <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Slainte'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>   "Abair ach beagan is abair =
gu math=20
e"<BR>            =
DOUBLE=20
EDGE FORGE<BR>       Knives and Iron=20
Accouterments<BR>      <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>   "Knowing how is just the=20
beginning."</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Site Update
Date: 13 Sep 2003 09:29:44 -0500

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And mighty fine stickers they are, Mr Mi les.
LR
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Double Edge Forge=20
  To: [e-mail] ; [e-mail] ; =
[e-mail]=20
  Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 9:01 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Site Update


  Excuse the interruption....
  I was in a Hieland frame of mind this week... The new stickers are for =
you Jacobites that know the Bonny Prince will return....

        http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

  Slainte'
  D

     "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
              DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
         Knives and Iron Accouterments
        http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

     "Knowing how is just the beginning."
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C379D9.910F29A0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>And mighty fine stickers =
they are, Mr=20
Mi les.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>LR</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Double Edge=20
  Forge</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A> ;=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
; <A=20
  title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=
 </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 13, =
2003 9:01=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Site =
Update</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Excuse the =
interruption....</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I was in a Hieland frame of mind this =
week... The=20
  new stickers are for you Jacobites that know the Bonny Prince =
will=20
  return....</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>      <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Slainte'</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>   "Abair ach beagan is =
abair gu math=20
  =
e"<BR>            =

  DOUBLE EDGE FORGE<BR>       Knives and =
Iron=20
  Accouterments<BR>      <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>   "Knowing how is just the =

  beginning."</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 13 Sep 2003 08:21:36 -0700

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 5:06 AM

>
> doesn't mean I am not looking for information/documatation-that is
> something I find myself doing contiually, just that life sometimes gets in
> the way and I run out of hours in the day.
>

It takes me more darn time to type the thing out than anything else.  I hate
long ones, and I have a couple I want to do on dogs and saddles.  Maybe
later today.

Dale Nelson


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From: "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 13 Sep 2003 12:03:18 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 9:43 PM


> Dale
> I will try to over look your Gomer Pyle sarcasm because you have some good
> points I was not aware of.

Hope you can over look it on account of I was trying to be funny.  Please
accept my apology.

> The question is how accurate are the drawings.  I could be proven wrong
but
> it is my understanding that the buckle type cinch rings are relatively
> modern inventions.

I sure wish I could include the picture at this point, on account of you and
me are talking about a drawing that none of the others can see, and I'm not
much good at word pictures, but I'll try.  The ring that I suppose you are
talking about in the saddle picture is not the cinch ring.  That ring would
be on the cinch, and on my roping saddle it has a buckle tongue on it.  The
ring on the pictured saddle would be what we modern folks call a "D" ring,
which is hooked to the rigging of the saddle.  You are looking at the near
side and there is no drawing of the off side latigo or cinch, just the near
side latigo folded over the D ring, which in this case isn't a D, but is a
round ring.  Having made my living both horse back and nailing shoes on
them, I've got a little experience with the critters, and with black
smithing.  I'm not much of a black smith, but I can bend horse shoes, and I
can weld a bar shoe, and braze toe caulks etc.  So from personal experience,
about the easiest thing to hand forge and weld is a round ring.  So why
wouldn't a saddle maker in Santa Fe have even a half assed blacksmith like
myself  make up round rings for the rigging of his saddles.  I think you'll
find on the Mexican saddle that execpt for possibly a few nails, that it was
mostly made of wood and leather, both tanned and rawhide, and not much iron.

The old timers tied the cinch knot.  The saddle
> Vernam drew has the buckle type cinch rings.

I'm sorry, but your bucket has a hole in it at this point.  Horses and
people go back before David killed Goliath with a rock, and they had buckles
back then.  The Roman's buckled on their swords, the knights in armor did
the same, the pilgrims had buckle shoes.  Hundreds of thousands if not
millions of saddles have been rigged over thousands of years, and to think
that one or another style is something new just isn't true.  I would expect
that their were round rings, square rings and D rings and riggings that I
can't even imagine, so trying to date or disprove a date of an object by
whether it used a round ring or even if there is a buckle in the harness
someplace just doesn't hold water.  You might be surprised to know that by
1836 buckles and other objects were being wash plated with nickle.  Which I
would expect was an on going attempt to get wrought iron to stand up better
to horse sweat.  Randy Steffen in his "The Horse Soldier" series shows a
private in the light dragoons ca: 1778 with buckled on spurs, and buckles
all over his saddle, including buckle cinch's, which the flat saddle folks
call a girth.  But still there are buckles.   All this being said, I still
agree with you, I'm sure the latigo's on the St. Louis/ Santa Fe saddles
were done with a knot.  Just don't try and date it using buckles and rings
because you are on very thin ice.  Besides what I've said, Ewers in "The
Horse in Blackfoot Indian Culture" says that you can't date an Indian saddle
by it having iron used in the construction.  He says that some of the
earliest saddles have iron, and the later ones don't, and to be very
careful.  Now that we agree on the knots, lets wonder why that saddle is
full rigged.  Have you ever rode a centerfire, or even a three quarter rig
with a latigo knot under your leg?  It tends to make you think their might
be a better way.

Also the saddle is full rigged
> which without a back cinch can be pretty scary to ride down hills.

I'm going to disagree with you again.  Long long ago, and far far away, I
made my living packing mules in the southern Sierra Nevada.  I was riding a
roping saddle at the time, full rigged, but I left the back cinch very
loose.  I never had any trouble with the saddle being a problem on a steep
down hill, and it wasn't coming up against the back cinch either on account
of I leaned back coming down hill.  We also wrangled dudes at that pack
station.  A lot of the dude saddles were full rigged -- with the back cinch
removed, by us, on purpose because it's not needed.  So even dudes on a pack
trip going down very steep hills didn't have a problem with their saddles
without a back cinch.  The biggest problem we had with full rigged saddles
in the mountains is the cinch ring that far forward tends to rub sores on
the elbow, or kind of behind the elbow of the horse.  So in those cases, we
would use the latigo and go through both the back ring and the front one,
making it more like a three quarter rig, and pull the cinch out of the sore.
I think you will find that the back cinch is actually there for the guy
that's going to rope a mustang, or a big old cow, and you don't want her
pulling that saddle straight up and down.  If I was team roping I never
tightened the back cinch, but doctoring on the range I'd be catching
something big, and the horse would be holding the rope tight, then I'd snug
it up.  Enough of personal experience.  Is the full rig factual for the time
and place.  Lets look at Miller.  I wish I could send you a picture, but my
scanner is down right now, so you'll have to take my word for it.  Miller's
picture of the two pack mules reproduced in "Across the Wide Missouri" shows
a saddled mule.  This drawing has tons of information in it.  The pad looks
to be a stripped wool blanket.  The saddle is a saw buck type.  It's cinch
if all the way forward, just like the 1800 Santa Fe saddle.  There is NO
back cinch, no britchin' and no crupper.  There is a breast collar, and the
mule is being led by a rope tied around it's lower jaw, and very interesting
to me, the tails are shaved.  I've been told that was done so if you are
catching up stock in the dark you can tell if you got a horse or a mule.
Fact or fiction ??? Makes sense though.  It also looks like the lash rope is
around the mules neck for storage.  You can't tell much from the loaded
mule, except that it doesn't have a britchin' or crupper either, and it
looks to me like the breast collar on the one might just have a buckle???
He doesn't draw his pictures with enough detail to really tell.  So here we
have a full forward rigged saddle, and it's on a mule,  no back cinch, no
britchin' or crupper.  So why wouldn't a Santa Fe saddle be rigged the same
way?  If you still think the full forward rig isn't authentic, what one do
you think is?

The
> point being that he may have drawn a generalized picture not a carefully
> researched and detailed drawing.

I've seen saddles that look just like it, and I reckon he drew one of those
that he was able to date.

This picture was going to be used to
> justify using monkey faced taps.  I am simply pointing out that it just
does
> not appear to be that great of a source.

Well, maybe not, but it's certainly a place to start, and I would bet most
of my poke that there were at least some monkey faced taps used because we
have established that Santa Fe saddles were used, and/or  knock off's of
these saddles were made in St. Louis.  Were they used by lots of people.
That's hard to say, but just because there are no paintings of them doesn't
mean they weren't there, and it means we have to turn to other sources to
find out.  If you use Miller paintings to lay the law down about what was
used and what wasn't, or what took place in the mountains prior to 1840,
then there were never any white women wearing calico dresses at the
rendezvous.  Miller never drew them, but from another source I found out
they were there every year from 1836 to 1840.  See what I mean?

  > Once and for all we all know that Spanish style saddles were in the
> mountains.

Cool, now that we know that, we can talk about bridles.

I did not know they were a trade item with the Indians.  They
> were rather expensive but I suppose some Indians could probably afford to
> buy them as well as raid their way into them.

What's expensive?  How do we know they were expensive?  Blue beads cost
Indians more than a musket.  Indians seem to have had both.  This is all
relitive, and if you want something bad enough, cost is just a factor to be
overcome.  Remember that the entire fur trade wasn't in the Upper Missouri
region.  Lots of mountain men wintered in Taos and Santa Fe.

Is the term "California
> style" yours or theirs and what differentiates it from another style?

California style is their term.  In those days California was the same as an
island.  Ocean on one side and virtually impassable desterts and mountains
every place else.  California developed an aristocratic society in which the
peons (read that Indian slaves) did all the work, and the landed gentery
didn't lift a finger to do anything but basically ride.  So they developed
horsemanship to a high art.  The men rode nothing but stallions, and they
trained the finest curb bitted reining horses in the world.  As good a
horseman as the Tex/Mex - New Mexico vaqueros were, it is arguable that the
Califorionos were better, in that it's all they did.  The California saddle
differed probably more in fancy stuff rather than basics.

> Did you notice the process that Indians had to go through to build a ring
> out of rawhide before they got metal rings?  Quite a process.

That's probably why iron rings were a good trade item.

>>  Furthermore, I would expect that there were also numbers of American
> > (flat, what we now call English) saddles there at the same time.

The above is a quote of mine.  I found a couple of interesting Miller
paintings.  One shows Sir William Drummond Stewart sitting horse back and it
looks like he's resting his hand on a saddle horn.  But in two other
pictures he looks to be riding a flat (military) saddle, and has what looks
to me like a brace of pistols in pommel holsters.

This has gone on about as long as I can stand, so I'll close now and get
into bridles later.  I'm not saying there is anything wrong with using a
snaffel.  One question.  You said someplace that "cowboy stirrups" are
wrong.  What does a cowboy stirrup look like.  I'm serious, we need to be on
the same page to talk about this stuff.

Dale Nelson
Roseburg, OR


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
Date: 13 Sep 2003 16:36:41 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is just some information that when I read it years ago it stuck, =
mostly because it really blew my mind at the time.  I was reading the =
"Journal of a Mountain Man: James Clyman" edited by Linda Hasselstrom.  =
Jim is the guy that sewed Jeb Smith's ear back on after the grizzly =
attack.  He later left the mountains, and didn't return for 15 years, =
which brings us up to 1844.  A little late, but still very interesting.  =
James left the east in the spring of 1844, and traveled to Oregon, then =
to California, then raised a party in 1846 to return to the states.  =
They started in April of that year and crossed the Sierra via the head =
of the Yuba river, being forced by snow to the north until they could =
force a crossing in soft snow up to 8 feet deep.  They desended Donnor =
pass through the snow and over the cliffs without loosing any livestock, =
but all this time both man and beast suffered from the cold and weather. =
 Passing what is now Donnor Lake, they followed the Truckee river past =
where Reno now is, and followed it until it turned north.  From there =
they cut across heading for the Humbolt (Clyman call it the Mary's) =
river, and when they were crossing the sink of the Humbolt, or somewhere =
close to there they came to some hot springs.  I'll now quote from =
Clyman's journal for May 9, 1846.   " ----------- near sun set we stoped =
at some holes of Brackish water haveing traveled 30 miles today    at =
about 15 miles or half way from Waushee [Truckee] river to the first =
water near Mays. Lake still exist a cauldron of Boiling water  no stream =
issues from it [at] present but it stands in several pools Boiling and =
again disappearing    some of these pools have beautifull clear water =
Boiling in them and other emit Quantites of mud   into one of these =
muddy pools my little water spaniel Lucky went     poor fellow not =
knowing that it was Boiling hot he deliberately walked in to the caldron =
to slake his thirst and cool his limbs when to his sad disapointment and =
my sorrow he scalded himself allmost insantly to death     I felt more =
for his loss than any other animal I ever lost in my life as he had been =
my constant companion in all my wandering since I left Milwawkee and I =
vainly hoped to see him return to his old master in his native village =
--------"       That's it, a water spaniel that was with him for years, =
and that is the only mention.  That's why I remembered it, all the =
struggles in the snow and everything else, and not once does he mention =
how the dog got through, or if he had to carry him or what ever.  Is a =
water spaniel and a cocker spaniel the same thing?  It's hard to picture =
a grizzled mountain man with a cocker spaniel -- like I said, it blew my =
mind.
Dale Nelson
Roseburg, OR
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is just some information that when =
I read it=20
years ago it stuck, mostly because it really blew my mind at the =
time.  I=20
was reading the "Journal of a Mountain Man: James Clyman" edited by =
Linda=20
Hasselstrom.  Jim is the guy that sewed Jeb Smith's ear back on =
after the=20
grizzly attack.  He later left the mountains, and didn't return for =
15=20
years, which brings us up to 1844.  A little late, but still very=20
interesting.  James left the east in the spring of 1844, and =
traveled to=20
Oregon, then to California, then raised a party in 1846 to return to the =

states.  They started in April of that year and crossed the Sierra =
via the=20
head of the Yuba river, being forced by snow to the north until they =
could force=20
a crossing in soft snow up to 8 feet deep.  They desended Donnor =
pass=20
through the snow and over the cliffs without loosing any livestock, but =
all this=20
time both man and beast suffered from the cold and weather.  =
Passing what=20
is now Donnor Lake, they followed the Truckee river past where Reno now =
is, and=20
followed it until it turned north.  From there they cut across =
heading for=20
the Humbolt (Clyman call it the Mary's) river, and when they were =
crossing the=20
sink of the Humbolt, or somewhere close to there they came to some hot=20
springs.  I'll now quote from Clyman's journal for May 9, =
1846.  =20
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>" ----------- near sun set we stoped =
at some=20
holes of Brackish water haveing traveled 30 miles =
today    at=20
about 15 miles or half way from Waushee [Truckee] river to the first =
water near=20
Mays. Lake still exist a cauldron of Boiling water  no stream =
issues from=20
it [at] present but it stands in several pools Boiling and again=20
disappearing    some of these pools have beautifull clear =
water=20
Boiling in them and other emit Quantites of mud   into one of =
these=20
muddy pools my little water spaniel Lucky went     =
poor=20
fellow not knowing that it was Boiling hot he deliberately walked in to =
the=20
caldron to slake his thirst and cool his limbs when to his sad =
disapointment and=20
my sorrow he scalded himself allmost insantly to =
death     I=20
felt more for his loss than any other animal I ever lost in my life as =
he had=20
been my constant companion in all my wandering since I left Milwawkee =
and I=20
vainly hoped to see him return to his old master in his native village=20
--------"       That's it, a water spaniel =
that=20
was with him for years, and that is the only mention.  That's why I =

remembered it, all the struggles in the snow and everything else, and =
not once=20
does he mention how the dog got through, or if he had to carry him or =
what=20
ever.  Is a water spaniel and a cocker spaniel the same =
thing?  It's=20
hard to picture a grizzled mountain man with a cocker spaniel -- like I =
said, it=20
blew my mind.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dale Nelson</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roseburg, =
OR</FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs
Date: 13 Sep 2003 20:06:46 -0400

Do you mind if I cross post your message to another list? The dog breeding list
I'm on would get a laugh out of it.

Thanks
Le

James and Sue Stone wrote:

> Be sure to consult a knowledgeable source before cross breeding.  I
> ended up with what I thought might be an ideal duck dog...Australian
> Shephard and Golden Retriever.  I was expecting a dog who would round
> uup ducks and herd them by me on slow days, then retrieve what I shot.
>  My first surprised was the dog's color.  I swear, if she wasn't moving
> on the marsh, even if you knew exactly where she was, and even if she
> was less than 50 feet away, she would disappear.  Talk about natural
> camo! Unfortunately, she neither liked to retrieve nor herd ducks.  I
> coulda got rich off that line!
> poor sparks
>
> busterize wrote:
>
> >I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough.  Wouldn't have any other
> >breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed here
> >so early in this country's history.
> >
> >Geri
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs
Date: 13 Sep 2003 18:35:15 -0600


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Le
Cross post away!  Humor is useless unless it's shared.
Sparks

[e-mail] wrote:

>Do you mind if I cross post your message to another list? The dog breeding list
>I'm on would get a laugh out of it.
>
>Thanks
>Le
>
>James and Sue Stone wrote:
>
>
>
>>Be sure to consult a knowledgeable source before cross breeding.  I
>>ended up with what I thought might be an ideal duck dog...Australian
>>Shephard and Golden Retriever.  I was expecting a dog who would round
>>uup ducks and herd them by me on slow days, then retrieve what I shot.
>> My first surprised was the dog's color.  I swear, if she wasn't moving
>>on the marsh, even if you knew exactly where she was, and even if she
>>was less than 50 feet away, she would disappear.  Talk about natural
>>camo! Unfortunately, she neither liked to retrieve nor herd ducks.  I
>>coulda got rich off that line!
>>poor sparks
>>
>>busterize wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough.  Wouldn't have any other
>>>breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed here
>>>so early in this country's history.
>>>
>>>Geri
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------------------
>>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>


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</head>
<body>
Le<br>
Cross post away!  Humor is useless unless it's shared.<br>
Sparks<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="[e-mail]">
  <pre wrap="">Do you mind if I cross post your message to another list? The dog breeding list
I'm on would get a laugh out of it.

Thanks
Le

James and Sue Stone wrote:

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Be sure to consult a knowledgeable source before cross breeding.  I
ended up with what I thought might be an ideal duck dog...Australian
Shephard and Golden Retriever.  I was expecting a dog who would round
uup ducks and herd them by me on slow days, then retrieve what I shot.
 My first surprised was the dog's color.  I swear, if she wasn't moving
on the marsh, even if you knew exactly where she was, and even if she
was less than 50 feet away, she would disappear.  Talk about natural
camo! Unfortunately, she neither liked to retrieve nor herd ducks.  I
coulda got rich off that line!
poor sparks

busterize wrote:

    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough.  Wouldn't have any other
breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed here
so early in this country's history.

Geri



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      </pre>
    </blockquote>
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    </pre>
  </blockquote>
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  </pre>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs...
Date: 13 Sep 2003 18:52:24 -0600


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http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/amewatsp.cfm


The American Water Spaniel wasn't recognized as an AKC breed until 1940,
because people didn't want to ruin "it's hunting ability."  The American
Water Spaniel looks like a cross between cocker spaniel and a curly coat
retriever.  AWS are 15-18 at the shoulder and 25 to 45 pounds.  They
were bred for cold water retrieving of waterfowl, flushing and
retrieving upland game including rabbits.  AWS was the first sporting
breed developed in America.

Sparks
Trivia:  One trait the developers wanted in a golden retriever was a
good nose.  They including blood hounds in the mix.


Dale Nelson wrote:

> This is just some information that when I read it years ago it stuck,
> mostly because it really blew my mind at the time.  I was reading the
> "Journal of a Mountain Man: James Clyman" edited by Linda
> Hasselstrom.  Jim is the guy that sewed Jeb Smith's ear back on after
> the grizzly attack.  He later left the mountains, and didn't return
> for 15 years, which brings us up to 1844.  A little late, but still
> very interesting.  James left the east in the spring of 1844, and
> traveled to Oregon, then to California, then raised a party in 1846 to
> return to the states.  They started in April of that year and crossed
> the Sierra via the head of the Yuba river, being forced by snow to the
> north until they could force a crossing in soft snow up to 8 feet
> deep.  They desended Donnor pass through the snow and over the cliffs
> without loosing any livestock, but all this time both man and beast
> suffered from the cold and weather.  Passing what is now Donnor Lake,
> they followed the Truckee river past where Reno now is, and followed
> it until it turned north.  From there they cut across heading for the
> Humbolt (Clyman call it the Mary's) river, and when they were crossing
> the sink of the Humbolt, or somewhere close to there they came to some
> hot springs.  I'll now quote from Clyman's journal for May 9, 1846.
> " ----------- near sun set we stoped at some holes of Brackish water
> haveing traveled 30 miles today    at about 15 miles or half way from
> Waushee [Truckee] river to the first water near Mays. Lake still exist
> a cauldron of Boiling water  no stream issues from it [at] present but
> it stands in several pools Boiling and again disappearing    some of
> these pools have beautifull clear water Boiling in them and other emit
> Quantites of mud   into one of these muddy pools my little water
> spaniel Lucky went     poor fellow not knowing that it was Boiling hot
> he deliberately walked in to the caldron to slake his thirst and cool
> his limbs when to his sad disapointment and my sorrow he scalded
> himself allmost insantly to death     I felt more for his loss than
> any other animal I ever lost in my life as he had been my constant
> companion in all my wandering since I left Milwawkee and I vainly
> hoped to see him return to his old master in his native village
> --------"       That's it, a water spaniel that was with him for
> years, and that is the only mention.  That's why I remembered it, all
> the struggles in the snow and everything else, and not once does he
> mention how the dog got through, or if he had to carry him or what
> ever.  Is a water spaniel and a cocker spaniel the same thing?  It's
> hard to picture a grizzled mountain man with a cocker spaniel -- like
> I said, it blew my mind.
> Dale Nelson
> Roseburg, OR



--------------040509010305020308000206
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/amewatsp.cfm">

http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/amewatsp.cfm</a></pre>
<br>
The American Water Spaniel wasn't recognized as an AKC breed until 1940,
because people didn't want to ruin "it's hunting ability."  The American
Water Spaniel looks like a cross between cocker spaniel and a curly coat
retriever.  AWS are 15-18 at the shoulder and 25 to 45 pounds.  They were
bred for cold water retrieving of waterfowl, flushing and retrieving upland
game including rabbits.  AWS was the first sporting breed developed in America.<br>
<br>
Sparks<br>
Trivia:  One trait the developers wanted in a golden retriever was a good
nose.  They including blood hounds in the mix.<br>
<br>
<br>
Dale Nelson wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001b01c37a4f$e7108350$58361c40@mypc">
  <title></title>

  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">

  <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name="GENERATOR">

  <style></style>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">This is just some information that when
I read it  years ago it stuck, mostly because it really blew my mind at the
time.  I  was reading the "Journal of a Mountain Man: James Clyman" edited
by Linda  Hasselstrom.  Jim is the guy that sewed Jeb Smith's ear back on
after the  grizzly attack.  He later left the mountains, and didn't return
for 15  years, which brings us up to 1844.  A little late, but still very
 interesting.  James left the east in the spring of 1844, and traveled to
 Oregon, then to California, then raised a party in 1846 to return to the
 states.  They started in April of that year and crossed the Sierra via the
 head of the Yuba river, being forced by snow to the north until they could
force  a crossing in soft snow up to 8 feet deep.  They desended Donnor pass
 through the snow and over the cliffs without loosing any livestock, but
all this  time both man and beast suffered from the cold and weather.  Passing
what  is now Donnor Lake, they followed the Truckee river past where Reno
now is, and  followed it until it turned north.  From there they cut across
heading for  the Humbolt (Clyman call it the Mary's) river, and when they
were crossing the  sink of the Humbolt, or somewhere close to there they
came to some hot  springs.  I'll now quote from Clyman's journal for May
9, 1846.    </font><font face="Arial" size="2">" ----------- near sun set
we stoped at some  holes of Brackish water haveing traveled 30 miles today
at  about 15 miles or half way from Waushee [Truckee] river to the first
water near  Mays. Lake still exist a cauldron of Boiling water  no stream
issues from  it [at] present but it stands in several pools Boiling and again
 disappearing    some of these pools have beautifull clear water  Boiling
in them and other emit Quantites of mud   into one of these  muddy pools
my little water spaniel Lucky went     poor  fellow not knowing that it was
Boiling hot he deliberately walked in to the  caldron to slake his thirst
and cool his limbs when to his sad disapointment and  my sorrow he scalded
himself allmost insantly to death     I  felt more for his loss than any
other animal I ever lost in my life as he had  been my constant companion
in all my wandering since I left Milwawkee and I  vainly hoped to see him
return to his old master in his native village  --------"       That's it,
a water spaniel that  was with him for years, and that is the only mention.
That's why I  remembered it, all the struggles in the snow and everything
else, and not once  does he mention how the dog got through, or if he had
to carry him or what  ever.  Is a water spaniel and a cocker spaniel the
same thing?  It's  hard to picture a grizzled mountain man with a cocker
spaniel -- like I said, it  blew my mind.</font></div>

  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dale Nelson</font></div>

  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Roseburg, OR</font> </div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourd Horn Saddle Maker
Date: 13 Sep 2003 23:51:47 -0600

At 07:13 PM 9/12/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>I have not seen anyone with any help for you and I haven't got the info you
are after.  Perhaps you got it off line.  I would like to hear how it goes.
Can you keep us updated?
>
>Wynn Ormond

Hi Wynn,

Have you seen Rick Palmer's gourd horn saddle?  I contacted Clay off-list
and told him that Rick has one and could maybe send pictures.

Allen



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From: "busterize" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Water Spaniel
Date: 14 Sep 2003 11:57:31 -0700

Dale, Water Spaniels are larger than cockers, and bred for retrieving from
the water. They were popular in England with those hunters shooting wild
fowl.

Don't know when they originated, but wonder if cockers were even considered
a "breed" at the time. Many of the smaller breeds were created for the
convenience of ladies wanting a smaller "lap" dog. For instance, my ACD
weighs 24 pounds, whereas the average ACD can weigh anywhere from 30 to 40
lbs. Both her mom & pap were on the small side and each litter produced by
that bitch were small.

Geri



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Water Spaniel
Date: 14 Sep 2003 13:16:33 -0600

Cockers were originally from the same stock as Water Spaniels according
to an English Water Spaniel Club website.   Cockers were originally
developed as a hunting breed specifically for Woodcocks...thus the name
'cocker.   Later, cockers were bred to be stupid, small and pretty for
lap dog perfection.*

It is apparent in golden retrievers that almost two distinct breeds are
present.  The "show dog" seems, large, blond, long-haired and not
necessarily bright.  Hunting/field trial stock goldens are small framed
(to have better bone/muscle mass ratio for longer endurance), smart,
shorter haired, really really fast, , with good noses and "mark" well
("mark" being the skill of watching a bird fall and retrieving it,
rather than putting territorial "markers" in the living room).

*According to Mrs. Stone, eminent historian and knitter.

Sparks and Mrs Stone

busterize wrote:

>Dale, Water Spaniels are larger than cockers, and bred for retrieving from
>the water. They were popular in England with those hunters shooting wild
>fowl.
>
>Don't know when they originated, but wonder if cockers were even considered
>a "breed" at the time. Many of the smaller breeds were created for the
>convenience of ladies wanting a smaller "lap" dog. For instance, my ACD
>weighs 24 pounds, whereas the average ACD can weigh anywhere from 30 to 40
>lbs. Both her mom & pap were on the small side and each litter produced by
>that bitch were small.
>
>Geri
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain House
Date: 14 Sep 2003 15:46:53 -0600 (MDT)

Dear List,
   Has anyone been to Rocky Mountain House in Alberta, Canada? If so, is
it worth going out of the way to see? What is there?
   Thank you
         bb

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Water Spaniel
Date: 14 Sep 2003 18:29:24 -0500

Mrs. Jones is right about all the Cocker Spaniels that I  ever met.  More
stupid even than Dachshunds and that's saying something.  (Wienie dogs
aren't afraid of a damn thing but their chew toys are smarter than they
are.)   Plus, the nastiest dog bite I ever knew about was a Cocker Spaniel
biting the toddler child of the dog's owner, ripping up the child's face in
the process.   According to the owner, the damn dog simply snapped and
jumped the baby.....right in the living room in front of everybody.   He
should have shot it the day the rabies observation period was up.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 2:16 PM


> Cockers were originally from the same stock as Water Spaniels according
> to an English Water Spaniel Club website.   Cockers were originally
> developed as a hunting breed specifically for Woodcocks...thus the name
> 'cocker.   Later, cockers were bred to be stupid, small and pretty for
> lap dog perfection.*
>
> It is apparent in golden retrievers that almost two distinct breeds are
> present.  The "show dog" seems, large, blond, long-haired and not
> necessarily bright.  Hunting/field trial stock goldens are small framed
> (to have better bone/muscle mass ratio for longer endurance), smart,
> shorter haired, really really fast, , with good noses and "mark" well
> ("mark" being the skill of watching a bird fall and retrieving it,
> rather than putting territorial "markers" in the living room).
>
> *According to Mrs. Stone, eminent historian and knitter.
>
> Sparks and Mrs Stone
>
> busterize wrote:
>
> >Dale, Water Spaniels are larger than cockers, and bred for retrieving
from
> >the water. They were popular in England with those hunters shooting wild
> >fowl.
> >
> >Don't know when they originated, but wonder if cockers were even
considered
> >a "breed" at the time. Many of the smaller breeds were created for the
> >convenience of ladies wanting a smaller "lap" dog. For instance, my ACD
> >weighs 24 pounds, whereas the average ACD can weigh anywhere from 30 to
40
> >lbs. Both her mom & pap were on the small side and each litter produced
by
> >that bitch were small.
> >
> >Geri
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Water Spaniel
Date: 14 Sep 2003 21:20:27 -0600


--------------000103040907060001050705
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now Now Lanney,
Let's not be too hard on the Dachshunds.  After all, they were bred as
'badger dogs.'  For a dog to go headlong into a badger hole after the
critter he HAS to have those two traits...fearless and stupid always
served him well!
Sparks

Lanney Ratcliff wrote:

>Mrs. Jones is right about all the Cocker Spaniels that I  ever met.  More
>stupid even than Dachshunds and that's saying something.  (Wienie dogs
>aren't afraid of a damn thing but their chew toys are smarter than they
>are.)   Plus, the nastiest dog bite I ever knew about was a Cocker Spaniel
>biting the toddler child of the dog's owner, ripping up the child's face in
>the process.   According to the owner, the damn dog simply snapped and
>jumped the baby.....right in the living room in front of everybody.   He
>should have shot it the day the rabies observation period was up.
>Lanney
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "James and Sue Stone" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 2:16 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Water Spaniel
>
>
>
>
>>Cockers were originally from the same stock as Water Spaniels according
>>to an English Water Spaniel Club website.   Cockers were originally
>>developed as a hunting breed specifically for Woodcocks...thus the name
>>'cocker.   Later, cockers were bred to be stupid, small and pretty for
>>lap dog perfection.*
>>
>>It is apparent in golden retrievers that almost two distinct breeds are
>>present.  The "show dog" seems, large, blond, long-haired and not
>>necessarily bright.  Hunting/field trial stock goldens are small framed
>>(to have better bone/muscle mass ratio for longer endurance), smart,
>>shorter haired, really really fast, , with good noses and "mark" well
>>("mark" being the skill of watching a bird fall and retrieving it,
>>rather than putting territorial "markers" in the living room).
>>
>>*According to Mrs. Stone, eminent historian and knitter.
>>
>>Sparks and Mrs Stone
>>
>>busterize wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Dale, Water Spaniels are larger than cockers, and bred for retrieving
>>>
>>>
>from
>
>
>>>the water. They were popular in England with those hunters shooting wild
>>>fowl.
>>>
>>>Don't know when they originated, but wonder if cockers were even
>>>
>>>
>considered
>
>
>>>a "breed" at the time. Many of the smaller breeds were created for the
>>>convenience of ladies wanting a smaller "lap" dog. For instance, my ACD
>>>weighs 24 pounds, whereas the average ACD can weigh anywhere from 30 to
>>>
>>>
>40
>
>
>>>lbs. Both her mom & pap were on the small side and each litter produced
>>>
>>>
>by
>
>
>>>that bitch were small.
>>>
>>>Geri
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------------------
>>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>


--------------000103040907060001050705
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
Now Now Lanney,<br>
Let's not be too hard on the Dachshunds.  After all, they were bred as 'badger
dogs.'  For a dog to go headlong into a badger hole after the critter he
HAS to have those two traits...fearless and stupid always served him well!<br>
Sparks<br>
<br>
Lanney Ratcliff wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="mid001e01c37b18$086f76a0$6a44be42@D39X9B11">
  <pre wrap="">Mrs. Jones is right about all the Cocker Spaniels that I  ever met.  More
stupid even than Dachshunds and that's saying something.  (Wienie dogs
aren't afraid of a damn thing but their chew toys are smarter than they
are.)   Plus, the nastiest dog bite I ever knew about was a Cocker Spaniel
biting the toddler child of the dog's owner, ripping up the child's face in
the process.   According to the owner, the damn dog simply snapped and
jumped the baby.....right in the living room in front of everybody.   He
should have shot it the day the rabies observation period was up.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 2:16 PM


  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Cockers were originally from the same stock as Water Spaniels according
to an English Water Spaniel Club website.   Cockers were originally
developed as a hunting breed specifically for Woodcocks...thus the name
'cocker.   Later, cockers were bred to be stupid, small and pretty for
lap dog perfection.*

It is apparent in golden retrievers that almost two distinct breeds are
present.  The "show dog" seems, large, blond, long-haired and not
necessarily bright.  Hunting/field trial stock goldens are small framed
(to have better bone/muscle mass ratio for longer endurance), smart,
shorter haired, really really fast, , with good noses and "mark" well
("mark" being the skill of watching a bird fall and retrieving it,
rather than putting territorial "markers" in the living room).

*According to Mrs. Stone, eminent historian and knitter.

Sparks and Mrs Stone

busterize wrote:

    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Dale, Water Spaniels are larger than cockers, and bred for retrieving
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->from
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">the water. They were popular in England with those hunters shooting wild
fowl.

Don't know when they originated, but wonder if cockers were even
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->considered
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">a "breed" at the time. Many of the smaller breeds were created for the
convenience of ladies wanting a smaller "lap" dog. For instance, my ACD
weighs 24 pounds, whereas the average ACD can weigh anywhere from 30 to
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->40
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">lbs. Both her mom & pap were on the small side and each litter produced
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->by
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">that bitch were small.

Geri



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      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">

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    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->


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  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------000103040907060001050705--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs
Date: 14 Sep 2003 21:44:25 -0600

Don't get me wrong.  I love dogs.
I also have my unabashed preferrence for larger sporting dogs.
particularly retrievers, setters, stock dogs,  and other such sporting
and working dogs.  I think it's cool some people bred dogs for hunting
badgers, woodcocks, hunting people (chow or spitz, can't remember which
but it is a Chinese dog), black-and-tan coon dogs, bloodhounds,
wolfhounds, sled dogs and horse companion dogs (dalmations, formerly
called "coach dogs" that kept the horses company in the fire station
stables).  Personally, I don't care much for lap dogs, but lots of
people like them as part of the family.  I even have one that came with
the marriage and joined right in w/ my three goldens...some sort of
black, curley, wire-haired, sawed-off terrier cross.  I share my peach
slices, bannana pieces and cornbread equally between them.  I even work
with people who special breed long-haired chiwawas (definitely
mispelled)--probably not even knowing that the central Americans raised
them for food.

A dog is a man's (read human's) best friend.

As early 20th century Philosopher Groucho Marx said "Outside of a dog, a
book is a man's best friend.  Inside of a dog, it's  too dark to read."
 Those of you who don't understand that twist, you are not alone.  My
chiropractor didn't get it, but his receptionist did.

Sparks



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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Water Spaniel
Date: 14 Sep 2003 22:47:55 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C37B12.3CBC3160
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yeah, I know, badger hounds had to be fearless.  My Dachshund was a good =
little dog about 99% of the time and was afraid of nothing at all 100% =
of the time....but she was one stupid little dog.  Looked like a tiny, =
short-legged Rotweiler and had a similar personality.   Being fearless =
and all, she wouldn't take any crap from anybody or anything.  One of my =
fondest memories of that little knot-head was the sight of her (at about =
7 weeks old) clamping down on an ear and hanging on to my 75 lb =
oversized Boxer who was bullying her and making him howl like a broke =
d.... er, well, you how he howled.  They got along famously after that =
little incident.  There are lots of stories about my dogs but they are =
best told across a campfire with a jug of a strong adult beverage being =
passed.
Lanney
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: James and Sue Stone=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 10:20 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Water Spaniel


  Now Now Lanney,
  Let's not be too hard on the Dachshunds.  After all, they were bred as =
'badger dogs.'  For a dog to go headlong into a badger hole after the =
critter he HAS to have those two traits...fearless and stupid always =
served him well!
  Sparks

  Lanney Ratcliff wrote:

Mrs. Jones is right about all the Cocker Spaniels that I  ever met.  =
More
stupid even than Dachshunds and that's saying something.  (Wienie dogs
aren't afraid of a damn thing but their chew toys are smarter than they
are.)   Plus, the nastiest dog bite I ever knew about was a Cocker =
Spaniel
biting the toddler child of the dog's owner, ripping up the child's face =
in
the process.   According to the owner, the damn dog simply snapped and
jumped the baby.....right in the living room in front of everybody.   He
should have shot it the day the rabies observation period was up.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 2:16 PM


  Cockers were originally from the same stock as Water Spaniels =
according
to an English Water Spaniel Club website.   Cockers were originally
developed as a hunting breed specifically for Woodcocks...thus the name
'cocker.   Later, cockers were bred to be stupid, small and pretty for
lap dog perfection.*

It is apparent in golden retrievers that almost two distinct breeds are
present.  The "show dog" seems, large, blond, long-haired and not
necessarily bright.  Hunting/field trial stock goldens are small framed
(to have better bone/muscle mass ratio for longer endurance), smart,
shorter haired, really really fast, , with good noses and "mark" well
("mark" being the skill of watching a bird fall and retrieving it,
rather than putting territorial "markers" in the living room).

*According to Mrs. Stone, eminent historian and knitter.

Sparks and Mrs Stone

busterize wrote:

    Dale, Water Spaniels are larger than cockers, and bred for =
retrieving
      from
  the water. They were popular in England with those hunters shooting =
wild
fowl.

Don't know when they originated, but wonder if cockers were even
      considered
  a "breed" at the time. Many of the smaller breeds were created for the
convenience of ladies wanting a smaller "lap" dog. For instance, my ACD
weighs 24 pounds, whereas the average ACD can weigh anywhere from 30 to
      40
  lbs. Both her mom & pap were on the small side and each litter =
produced
      by
  that bitch were small.

Geri



----------------------
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     =20
----------------------
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   =20


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 =20

------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C37B12.3CBC3160
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type =
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3DISO-8859-1>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Yeah, I know, =
badger hounds had to=20
be fearless.  My Dachshund was a good little dog about 99% of =
the time=20
and was afraid of nothing at all 100% of the time....but she was one =
stupid=20
little dog.  Looked like a tiny, short-legged Rotweiler and had a =
similar=20
personality.   Being fearless and all, she wouldn't take any =
crap from=20
anybody or anything.  One of my fondest memories of that little =
knot-head=20
was the sight of her (at about 7 weeks old) clamping down on an=20
ear and hanging on to my 75 lb oversized Boxer who was =
bullying=20
her and making him howl like a broke d.... er, well, you how =
he=20
howled.  They got along famously after that little incident.  =
There=20
are lots of stories about my dogs but they are best told across a =
campfire with=20
a jug of a strong adult beverage being passed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">James=20
  and Sue Stone</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 14, =
2003 10:20=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Water=20
  Spaniel</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Now Now Lanney,<BR>Let's not be too hard on the =
Dachshunds.=20
   After all, they were bred as 'badger dogs.'  For a dog to =
go=20
  headlong into a badger hole after the critter he HAS to have those two =

  traits...fearless and stupid always served him =
well!<BR>Sparks<BR><BR>Lanney=20
  Ratcliff wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid001e01c37b18$086f76a0$6a44be42@D39X9B11 =
type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Mrs. Jones is right about all the Cocker =
Spaniels that I  ever met.  More
stupid even than Dachshunds and that's saying something.  (Wienie dogs
aren't afraid of a damn thing but their chew toys are smarter than they
are.)   Plus, the nastiest dog bite I ever knew about was a Cocker =
Spaniel
biting the toddler child of the dog's owner, ripping up the child's face =
in
the process.   According to the owner, the damn dog simply snapped and
jumped the baby.....right in the living room in front of everybody.   He
should have shot it the day the rabies observation period was up.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"><[e-mail]>=
</A>
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"><[e-mail]=
.com></A>
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 2:16 PM


  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Cockers were originally =
from the same stock as Water Spaniels according
to an English Water Spaniel Club website.   Cockers were originally
developed as a hunting breed specifically for Woodcocks...thus the name
'cocker.   Later, cockers were bred to be stupid, small and pretty for
lap dog perfection.*

It is apparent in golden retrievers that almost two distinct breeds are
present.  The "show dog" seems, large, blond, long-haired and not
necessarily bright.  Hunting/field trial stock goldens are small framed
(to have better bone/muscle mass ratio for longer endurance), smart,
shorter haired, really really fast, , with good noses and "mark" well
("mark" being the skill of watching a bird fall and retrieving it,
rather than putting territorial "markers" in the living room).

*According to Mrs. Stone, eminent historian and knitter.

Sparks and Mrs Stone

busterize wrote:

    </PRE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Dale, Water Spaniels are =
larger than cockers, and bred for retrieving
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->from
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">the water. They were =
popular in England with those hunters shooting wild
fowl.

Don't know when they originated, but wonder if cockers were even
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->considered
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">a "breed" at the time. =
Many of the smaller breeds were created for the
convenience of ladies wanting a smaller "lap" dog. For instance, my ACD
weighs 24 pounds, whereas the average ACD can weigh anywhere from 30 to
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->40
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">lbs. Both her mom & =
pap were on the small side and each litter produced
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->by
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">that bitch were small.

Geri



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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 14 Sep 2003 22:50:22 -0600




   All this being said, I still
> agree with you, I'm sure the latigo's on the St. Louis/ Santa Fe saddles
> were done with a knot.  Just don't try and date it using buckles and rings
> because you are on very thin ice.

Then we are in complete agreement.  I never claimed buckles weren't used esp
on English saddles or 1000 other places.  Just that in some general
knowledge sort of way it was not common on early spanish style saddle
cinches.


> Also the saddle is full rigged
> > which without a back cinch can be pretty scary to ride down hills.
>
> I'm going to disagree with you again.. .  If you still think the full
forward rig isn't authentic, what one do
> you think is?

I think I erased your other question but almost every saddle I have ridden,
western, McLellan, and period,  has been 3/4 to center and I have never
found the knot to be the uncomfortable problem you described.  It has been
my understanding that most guys believe the saddles in Miller etc are center
to 3/4 rigged.  That is also one of the things that I believe seperates a
California saddle from others, and is one of the reasons that I asked about
the referance to that specific name.  I also wonder if the original source
used the term California saddle to mean that mountaineers had access to
saddles from California or if it was more a style type because I just can't
see how they would have gotten them form Cal in enough quantity to matter.

I will admit you have much greater experience with full rigged saddles maybe
I will have to rethink it.


> This picture was going to be used to
> > justify using monkey faced taps.  I am simply pointing out that it just
> does
> > not appear to be that great of a source.
>
> Well, maybe not, but it's certainly a place to start, and I would bet most
> of my poke that there were at least some monkey faced taps used . . . .
> .  If you use Miller paintings to lay the law down about what was
> used and what wasn't, or what took place in the mountains prior to 1840,
> then there were never any white women wearing calico dresses at the
> rendezvous.  Miller never drew them, but from another source I found out
> they were there every year from 1836 to 1840.  See what I mean?

Then you have documentation right?  Miller has his weaknesses no doubt.  He
aint the only one but he was there.

> One question.  You said someplace that "cowboy stirrups" are
> wrong.  What does a cowboy stirrup look like.  I'm serious, we need to be
on
> the same page to talk about this stuff.

I would be surprized if I used that term.  I try to refer to modern western
saddle equipment as western not cowboy.  The bent wood sturruips sometimes
wrapped that we see on most saddles in the department store.  They may a
1000 years old and used elsewhere but I haven't seen much to support them in
the Rocky Mtn fur trade.

Dale, this whole thing has gotten out of hand.  And it is in large part
because I made a statement that I should not have.  When it comes to
authenticity I ussually just say live and let live.  There is more wrong
with my stuff than right so I aint one to preach to much.  But I knocked
everyone's saddles and those saddles represent some cherished accepted ideas
in period saddlery.  I have got some guys so mad they could spit nails at
me.

I reckon I need to stick to saying this is why I do what I do and leave at
that.  If someone else wants to use other sources to authenticate the
opposite then maybe I better not publicly question those sources.   I am not
going to back off my personal beliefs but I should n't be trying to push
them on everyone else.  I reckon I am starting to sound as old and
opinionated.



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From: Rick Guglielmi <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles
Date: 15 Sep 2003 05:49:50 -0700


I just want to say I have been enjoying the discussion that has been going
on concerning saddles and associated gear such as saddle bags and taps.  We
all have opinions and access to different research material, thats what
this lists is all about (at least I thought it was).  I may not agree with
everything but it gets me thinking and  digging deeper into what sources I
have available.

I went back to my copy of  "Man Made Moble"  and reread the section on
"Spanish" saddles.  From what I understand the term "Spanish" is prety much
interchangable with "California".  There seems to not be a big difference
in the types of trees used on these saddles, more in the fancy
decorations  with the "California" rigs leaning on the more fancy (At least
for the upper class of the area.)

It looks like "Spanish" style saddles were coming out of St Louis and
surrounding areas by at least the mid 1820's although I still don not have
a clear picture of what those saddles actually look like.  I also feel
pretty confidante that saddles from Northern Mexico:ie, Texas, New Mexico,
Upper California were making there way into various trappers camps of the
Rocky Mnts and Far West.

There was a definate  "Americanizing" of the "Spanish" saddle going on by
the saddlers of the St Louis area.  This included incorporating "English"
features on a Spanish tree.  By the picture I see of this type of saddle it
just does not look like it would hold up under the harsh, everyday
conditions of the Western regions.

I am in the saddle a lot both making a living and for pleasure, and am
pretty hard on my outfit.  It seems I am always repairing something that
has broken either from a wreck, blow up, fall, exposure to weather, porky's
damage-you name it.  Those men were either on their animal or exposed to
any and all weahter conditions,  and other enviornmental condions which
would be pretty hard on their outfit.  It wouldn't take long to weed out
the equipment unsuitable to mountain conditions.

Have some other thoughts I would like to share but am running out of time
for now,until later, keep the discussions coming, play nice, we can all
learn something.

Rick


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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Snide remark
Date: 15 Sep 2003 11:17:58 -0500

Can someone tell me how to get off this dog discussion list and get back
on the mountain man discussion list?

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner




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From: "Angela Gottfred" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain House
Date: 15 Sep 2003 14:56:03 -0600

I'm pretty familiar with Rocky Mountain House; here's a review of it.

Historic Site Profile: Rocky Mountain House N.H.S.
http://www.northwestjournal.ca/II9.htm

If you have any more questions after you read the review, just ask!

Your very humble & most obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred




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From: "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 15 Sep 2003 15:08:50 -0700


----- Original Message -----

> > then there were never any white women wearing calico dresses at the
> > rendezvous.  Miller never drew them, but from another source I found out
> > they were there every year from 1836 to 1840.  See what I mean?
>
> Then you have documentation right?  Miller has his weaknesses no doubt.
He
> aint the only one but he was there.

Yes, we have documentation on white women, and also on horse gear via the
Smithsonian, and others that have researched this same topic, not just
Miller's drawings.  The trouble is when it comes to taps you won't accept
the source as being valid so I reckon that's what all this has been about
anyhow.  Valid sources.  You might not like the idea of taps, but I'm
satisfied that taps were used not just because they protect the feet and it
keeps one's moc clad foot from ending up through the stirrup and hung up,
but because we all agree that they were used in the southwest and in
California at that time.  There might not be any proof that taps were used
on the Upper Missouri by someone actually saying or a painting showing them.
But I'm not going to change my mind either, because so far I've seen more
proof that monkey faced taps are of that era than I have that they are wrong
on the frontier.  I think any kind of taps would more likely be wrong in
Penn. or New Jersey than on the upper Missouri.  One fact we shouldn't
forget, and I tend to not think about myself, but the trade was also in what
was then Mexico.  The border with Mexico wasn't far south of Denver, and
these guys were traveling far and wide.  And just the fact the Mexican horse
gear was better than anything else has to mean something.  If it was made in
Santa Fe and Taos, and being used there, and the mountain men were there,
then they were using it as is.  If the maker put taps on the stirrups, I'd
bet they weren't taken off.  Also,  Spanish bits were in use by the Nez
Perce when Lewis and Clark arrived, and they were the first white folks the
Nez Perce had seen (I think).  I don't think anyone knows if they were spade
bits from Calif. or came via Comanche then Shoshone to Nez Perce, but they
had them.  We know the stuff was there, being used by Indians, so why not
whites?

> >   What does a cowboy stirrup look like.

> The bent wood sturruips sometimes
> wrapped that we see on most saddles in the department store.  They may a
> 1000 years old and used elsewhere but I haven't seen much to support them
in
> the Rocky Mtn fur trade.

The ones nowdays on cheap saddles that are lined with metal would certainly
be wrong.  But bent wood stirrups are shown -- covered in rawhide in some
cases -- on Indian saddles.  So why
not on the Sante Fe saddle also?  Miller's painting of the lost greenhorn
looks like the guy is on an Indian pad saddle, and the stirrups are bent
wood, with the foot part looking like a stirrup from a Knights in Armor
saddle.  Almost the full length of the foot.  That's also a good painting to
get an idea of how small the Indian ponies really were.  And he's using a
snaffel bit on the pony.   Now this is where Miller gets to be really
disappointing -- because there is always a person, or grass, or brush in
front of what you want to see.  Never enough detail, like he avoids detail
by covering it up.  I've gone back and looked at some of his paintings that
I have prints of, and there just isn't that much detail.  First there is
"Pierre, Rocky Mountain Trapper" by Miller.  Pierre is riding a mule, with a
Spanish saddle and with a bit with shanks, like probably a curb bit of some
sort, but he is sitting in front of the stirrups.  Same thing in Millers
"Lost Trapper" -- he's riding a mule that's bridled with what looks like a
store bought outfit.  Miller's got you in close enough to see the brow band,
throat latch and the buckle above the bit, but grass covers the bit, that is
just a hint of what might be the shanks of a curb bit, and the trapper is
standing in front of the stirrups.  Then there is the "Trapper in his
Solitary Camp" cooking a rack of ribs and cleaning or loading his rifle.
You can't see a horn on the saddle on account of the mule's head is in the
way, again a bit with shanks, a brow band on the bridle and what looks to me
like bent wood stirrups.  It very well could be an Indian pad saddle and
Indian stirrups, there is no way to prove differently, but he has what looks
to be the white man's bridle.  Then there is the "Trappers Starting for the
Hunt".  Three of themn are heading out.  One looks like an Indian (he has
bow and arrows but he could well be white) with a large Mexican style cantle
on his saddle and he looks to be riding a horse.  Another is riding a shaved
tail, no doubt a mule, with a crupper under his tail.  It's a color painting
done in black and white, and I can't see any kind of a stirrup.  When you
look at artists that are up 30 years after 1840, like Russel and other
painters of the 1850's to '70's they show the sawed cottonwood stirrups.
Anytime that I've been able to find a stirrup done by Miller it looks like a
curved wooden one like the Smithsonian shows on Indian saddles.  I've not
seen a sawed cottonwood stirrup on a Miller saddle.  Does that mean they
weren't their either?  We know Santa Fe saddles used them also.

> Dale, this whole thing has gotten out of hand.

Naw, I don't think it's out of hand.  You sure have driven me back to the
books, and it's been kind of fun.  You think you sound old and opinionated,
shucks, I am old and opinionated.  I researched this stuff years ago, until
I had pretty well satisfied myself what would be right.  But that was a long
time ago, and you have made me go back and look again.  Divorce got the
ranch, and I no longer have horses, so it is no longer that important to me,
but fun to remember anyhow.  Haven't shod a horse sense my belly got too big
to bend over it.  Last time I nailed on shoes it was like I was diving under
water every time I bent over.  Had to come up for a breath before I could
drive the next nail.  Don't worry about things getting out of hand, do all
you can now, on account of life is too short, and looking back I didn't get
done half what I wanted to.  I aint dead yet, but there aint enough time or
money to do it all now.  I have gotten almost 60 pounds off my gut though,
and I'm feeling good enough I just might saddle up and head for the back
country one more time.  Sold my shoeing tools and anvil to buy this stupid
computer that I keep screwed up half the time.  I still have my roping
saddle, and I keep thinking that I need to get mounted and get back to team
roping, that's a really great old guys sport.  Enough of this.

> not going to back off my personal beliefs but I should n't be trying to
push
> them on everyone else.

It's a lot more fun to have all your ducks in a row and let them come to
you.
Dale Nelson
Roseburg, OR


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ben" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 15 Sep 2003 16:54:52 -0700

Hello the camp,
Just a note to tell you how much I'm enjoying the conversations on this
list.  I've learned a bunch, had a lot of memories jogged, and just
generally had a good time.
Only thing missing was the smoke from the campfire....ohhh...and the liquid
libations :)
Dale, I gotta ask, how in the hell did you loose sixty pounds?  I got the
same problem (can't breathe when bending over) but having a heck of a time
loosing any weight.  I'm gainin' weight on 1200 calories and damn near
starving to death. I know, more exercise, but it's hard to do when you're
old, got diabetes, and workin' on half a heart.
On a lighter note, the only saddle I ever remember using when we were back
on the ranch was the old cinch/latigo strap type. You'd have to get off and
tighten it after riding thirty minutes or so. Damned horses were smarter
than we were:)
Ben
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 3:08 PM


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
>
> > > then there were never any white women wearing calico dresses at the
> > > rendezvous.  Miller never drew them, but from another source I found
out
> > > they were there every year from 1836 to 1840.  See what I mean?
> >
> > Then you have documentation right?  Miller has his weaknesses no doubt.
> He
> > aint the only one but he was there.
>
> Yes, we have documentation on white women, and also on horse gear via the
> Smithsonian, and others that have researched this same topic, not just
> Miller's drawings.  The trouble is when it comes to taps you won't accept
> the source as being valid so I reckon that's what all this has been about
> anyhow.  Valid sources.  You might not like the idea of taps, but I'm
> satisfied that taps were used not just because they protect the feet and
it
> keeps one's moc clad foot from ending up through the stirrup and hung up,
> but because we all agree that they were used in the southwest and in
> California at that time.  There might not be any proof that taps were used
> on the Upper Missouri by someone actually saying or a painting showing
them.
> But I'm not going to change my mind either, because so far I've seen more
> proof that monkey faced taps are of that era than I have that they are
wrong
> on the frontier.  I think any kind of taps would more likely be wrong in
> Penn. or New Jersey than on the upper Missouri.  One fact we shouldn't
> forget, and I tend to not think about myself, but the trade was also in
what
> was then Mexico.  The border with Mexico wasn't far south of Denver, and
> these guys were traveling far and wide.  And just the fact the Mexican
horse
> gear was better than anything else has to mean something.  If it was made
in
> Santa Fe and Taos, and being used there, and the mountain men were there,
> then they were using it as is.  If the maker put taps on the stirrups, I'd
> bet they weren't taken off.  Also,  Spanish bits were in use by the Nez
> Perce when Lewis and Clark arrived, and they were the first white folks
the
> Nez Perce had seen (I think).  I don't think anyone knows if they were
spade
> bits from Calif. or came via Comanche then Shoshone to Nez Perce, but they
> had them.  We know the stuff was there, being used by Indians, so why not
> whites?
>
> > >   What does a cowboy stirrup look like.
>
> > The bent wood sturruips sometimes
> > wrapped that we see on most saddles in the department store.  They may a
> > 1000 years old and used elsewhere but I haven't seen much to support
them
> in
> > the Rocky Mtn fur trade.
>
> The ones nowdays on cheap saddles that are lined with metal would
certainly
> be wrong.  But bent wood stirrups are shown -- covered in rawhide in some
> cases -- on Indian saddles.  So why
> not on the Sante Fe saddle also?  Miller's painting of the lost greenhorn
> looks like the guy is on an Indian pad saddle, and the stirrups are bent
> wood, with the foot part looking like a stirrup from a Knights in Armor
> saddle.  Almost the full length of the foot.  That's also a good painting
to
> get an idea of how small the Indian ponies really were.  And he's using a
> snaffel bit on the pony.   Now this is where Miller gets to be really
> disappointing -- because there is always a person, or grass, or brush in
> front of what you want to see.  Never enough detail, like he avoids detail
> by covering it up.  I've gone back and looked at some of his paintings
that
> I have prints of, and there just isn't that much detail.  First there is
> "Pierre, Rocky Mountain Trapper" by Miller.  Pierre is riding a mule, with
a
> Spanish saddle and with a bit with shanks, like probably a curb bit of
some
> sort, but he is sitting in front of the stirrups.  Same thing in Millers
> "Lost Trapper" -- he's riding a mule that's bridled with what looks like a
> store bought outfit.  Miller's got you in close enough to see the brow
band,
> throat latch and the buckle above the bit, but grass covers the bit, that
is
> just a hint of what might be the shanks of a curb bit, and the trapper is
> standing in front of the stirrups.  Then there is the "Trapper in his
> Solitary Camp" cooking a rack of ribs and cleaning or loading his rifle.
> You can't see a horn on the saddle on account of the mule's head is in the
> way, again a bit with shanks, a brow band on the bridle and what looks to
me
> like bent wood stirrups.  It very well could be an Indian pad saddle and
> Indian stirrups, there is no way to prove differently, but he has what
looks
> to be the white man's bridle.  Then there is the "Trappers Starting for
the
> Hunt".  Three of themn are heading out.  One looks like an Indian (he has
> bow and arrows but he could well be white) with a large Mexican style
cantle
> on his saddle and he looks to be riding a horse.  Another is riding a
shaved
> tail, no doubt a mule, with a crupper under his tail.  It's a color
painting
> done in black and white, and I can't see any kind of a stirrup.  When you
> look at artists that are up 30 years after 1840, like Russel and other
> painters of the 1850's to '70's they show the sawed cottonwood stirrups.
> Anytime that I've been able to find a stirrup done by Miller it looks like
a
> curved wooden one like the Smithsonian shows on Indian saddles.  I've not
> seen a sawed cottonwood stirrup on a Miller saddle.  Does that mean they
> weren't their either?  We know Santa Fe saddles used them also.
>
> > Dale, this whole thing has gotten out of hand.
>
> Naw, I don't think it's out of hand.  You sure have driven me back to the
> books, and it's been kind of fun.  You think you sound old and
opinionated,
> shucks, I am old and opinionated.  I researched this stuff years ago,
until
> I had pretty well satisfied myself what would be right.  But that was a
long
> time ago, and you have made me go back and look again.  Divorce got the
> ranch, and I no longer have horses, so it is no longer that important to
me,
> but fun to remember anyhow.  Haven't shod a horse sense my belly got too
big
> to bend over it.  Last time I nailed on shoes it was like I was diving
under
> water every time I bent over.  Had to come up for a breath before I could
> drive the next nail.  Don't worry about things getting out of hand, do all
> you can now, on account of life is too short, and looking back I didn't
get
> done half what I wanted to.  I aint dead yet, but there aint enough time
or
> money to do it all now.  I have gotten almost 60 pounds off my gut though,
> and I'm feeling good enough I just might saddle up and head for the back
> country one more time.  Sold my shoeing tools and anvil to buy this stupid
> computer that I keep screwed up half the time.  I still have my roping
> saddle, and I keep thinking that I need to get mounted and get back to
team
> roping, that's a really great old guys sport.  Enough of this.
>
> > not going to back off my personal beliefs but I should n't be trying to
> push
> > them on everyone else.
>
> It's a lot more fun to have all your ducks in a row and let them come to
> you.
> Dale Nelson
> Roseburg, OR
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain House
Date: 15 Sep 2003 16:58:34 -0600 (MDT)

   Thank you, I will make a trip just to see it! It's only a few hundred
miles north of me. I will also stop again at Head-smashed-in Bison jump
on my way.
   Rocky Mountain House! Just the name invokes visions of fur trappers
gathered around a fireplace discussing beaver prices and the foothills
of the Northern Rockies they would take them in.
   I took my son to Canada for our vacation this summer, we viewed
Head-smashed-in jump from the road but it was closed as it was so early
in the morning. We then simply passed by Rocky Moutain House as it is
well off of the main road to Edmonton. We were on our way to see Jasper
and Banff.
   Jasper and Banff National Parks are a must see too for all travelers.
True gems of the Canadian Rockies as is the Glenbow Museum in Calgary,
which had an Inuit display when we were there. Excellent!
   I look forward to going back just to see Rocky Mountain House and
visiting our neighbors to the north once more.
     Thanks again,
           bb

> I'm pretty familiar with Rocky Mountain House; here's a review of it.
>
> Historic Site Profile: Rocky Mountain House N.H.S.
> http://www.northwestjournal.ca/II9.htm
>
> If you have any more questions after you read the review, just ask!
>
> Your very humble & most obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>




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From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 15 Sep 2003 18:02:13 -0600

Dale,

Thanks for all your efforts on this topic, it has been valuable and
interesting. I tend to agree with what you've said  and your opinions.

Teton


On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:08:50 -0700 "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
>
> > > then there were never any white women wearing calico dresses at
> the
> > > rendezvous.  Miller never drew them, but from another source I
> found out
> > > they were there every year from 1836 to 1840.  See what I mean?
> >
> > Then you have documentation right?  Miller has his weaknesses no
> doubt.
> He
> > aint the only one but he was there.
>
> Yes, we have documentation on white women, and also on horse gear
> via the
> Smithsonian, and others that have researched this same topic, not
> just
> Miller's drawings.  The trouble is when it comes to taps you won't
> accept
> the source as being valid so I reckon that's what all this has been
> about
> anyhow.  Valid sources.  You might not like the idea of taps, but
> I'm
> satisfied that taps were used not just because they protect the feet
> and it
> keeps one's moc clad foot from ending up through the stirrup and
> hung up,
> but because we all agree that they were used in the southwest and
> in
> California at that time.  There might not be any proof that taps
> were used
> on the Upper Missouri by someone actually saying or a painting
> showing them.
> But I'm not going to change my mind either, because so far I've seen
> more
> proof that monkey faced taps are of that era than I have that they
> are wrong
> on the frontier.  I think any kind of taps would more likely be
> wrong in
> Penn. or New Jersey than on the upper Missouri.  One fact we
> shouldn't
> forget, and I tend to not think about myself, but the trade was also
> in what
> was then Mexico.  The border with Mexico wasn't far south of Denver,
> and
> these guys were traveling far and wide.  And just the fact the
> Mexican horse
> gear was better than anything else has to mean something.  If it was
> made in
> Santa Fe and Taos, and being used there, and the mountain men were
> there,
> then they were using it as is.  If the maker put taps on the
> stirrups, I'd
> bet they weren't taken off.  Also,  Spanish bits were in use by the
> Nez
> Perce when Lewis and Clark arrived, and they were the first white
> folks the
> Nez Perce had seen (I think).  I don't think anyone knows if they
> were spade
> bits from Calif. or came via Comanche then Shoshone to Nez Perce,
> but they
> had them.  We know the stuff was there, being used by Indians, so
> why not
> whites?
>
> > >   What does a cowboy stirrup look like.
>
> > The bent wood sturruips sometimes
> > wrapped that we see on most saddles in the department store.  They
> may a
> > 1000 years old and used elsewhere but I haven't seen much to
> support them
> in
> > the Rocky Mtn fur trade.
>
> The ones nowdays on cheap saddles that are lined with metal would
> certainly
> be wrong.  But bent wood stirrups are shown -- covered in rawhide in
> some
> cases -- on Indian saddles.  So why
> not on the Sante Fe saddle also?  Miller's painting of the lost
> greenhorn
> looks like the guy is on an Indian pad saddle, and the stirrups are
> bent
> wood, with the foot part looking like a stirrup from a Knights in
> Armor
> saddle.  Almost the full length of the foot.  That's also a good
> painting to
> get an idea of how small the Indian ponies really were.  And he's
> using a
> snaffel bit on the pony.   Now this is where Miller gets to be
> really
> disappointing -- because there is always a person, or grass, or
> brush in
> front of what you want to see.  Never enough detail, like he avoids
> detail
> by covering it up.  I've gone back and looked at some of his
> paintings that
> I have prints of, and there just isn't that much detail.  First
> there is
> "Pierre, Rocky Mountain Trapper" by Miller.  Pierre is riding a
> mule, with a
> Spanish saddle and with a bit with shanks, like probably a curb bit
> of some
> sort, but he is sitting in front of the stirrups.  Same thing in
> Millers
> "Lost Trapper" -- he's riding a mule that's bridled with what looks
> like a
> store bought outfit.  Miller's got you in close enough to see the
> brow band,
> throat latch and the buckle above the bit, but grass covers the bit,
> that is
> just a hint of what might be the shanks of a curb bit, and the
> trapper is
> standing in front of the stirrups.  Then there is the "Trapper in
> his
> Solitary Camp" cooking a rack of ribs and cleaning or loading his
> rifle.
> You can't see a horn on the saddle on account of the mule's head is
> in the
> way, again a bit with shanks, a brow band on the bridle and what
> looks to me
> like bent wood stirrups.  It very well could be an Indian pad saddle
> and
> Indian stirrups, there is no way to prove differently, but he has
> what looks
> to be the white man's bridle.  Then there is the "Trappers Starting
> for the
> Hunt".  Three of themn are heading out.  One looks like an Indian
> (he has
> bow and arrows but he could well be white) with a large Mexican
> style cantle
> on his saddle and he looks to be riding a horse.  Another is riding
> a shaved
> tail, no doubt a mule, with a crupper under his tail.  It's a color
> painting
> done in black and white, and I can't see any kind of a stirrup.
> When you
> look at artists that are up 30 years after 1840, like Russel and
> other
> painters of the 1850's to '70's they show the sawed cottonwood
> stirrups.
> Anytime that I've been able to find a stirrup done by Miller it
> looks like a
> curved wooden one like the Smithsonian shows on Indian saddles.
> I've not
> seen a sawed cottonwood stirrup on a Miller saddle.  Does that mean
> they
> weren't their either?  We know Santa Fe saddles used them also.
>
> > Dale, this whole thing has gotten out of hand.
>
> Naw, I don't think it's out of hand.  You sure have driven me back
> to the
> books, and it's been kind of fun.  You think you sound old and
> opinionated,
> shucks, I am old and opinionated.  I researched this stuff years
> ago, until
> I had pretty well satisfied myself what would be right.  But that
> was a long
> time ago, and you have made me go back and look again.  Divorce got
> the
> ranch, and I no longer have horses, so it is no longer that
> important to me,
> but fun to remember anyhow.  Haven't shod a horse sense my belly got
> too big
> to bend over it.  Last time I nailed on shoes it was like I was
> diving under
> water every time I bent over.  Had to come up for a breath before I
> could
> drive the next nail.  Don't worry about things getting out of hand,
> do all
> you can now, on account of life is too short, and looking back I
> didn't get
> done half what I wanted to.  I aint dead yet, but there aint enough
> time or
> money to do it all now.  I have gotten almost 60 pounds off my gut
> though,
> and I'm feeling good enough I just might saddle up and head for the
> back
> country one more time.  Sold my shoeing tools and anvil to buy this
> stupid
> computer that I keep screwed up half the time.  I still have my
> roping
> saddle, and I keep thinking that I need to get mounted and get back
> to team
> roping, that's a really great old guys sport.  Enough of this.
>
> > not going to back off my personal beliefs but I should n't be
> trying to
> push
> > them on everyone else.
>
> It's a lot more fun to have all your ducks in a row and let them
> come to
> you.
> Dale Nelson
> Roseburg, OR
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 15 Sep 2003 17:35:01 -0700

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 4:54 PM


> Dale, I gotta ask, how in the hell did you loose sixty pounds?  I got the
> same problem (can't breathe when bending over) but having a heck of a time
> loosing any weight.  I'm gainin' weight on 1200 calories and damn near
> starving to death. I know, more exercise, but it's hard to do when you're
> old, got diabetes, and workin' on half a heart.

Ben,  Dr. Atkins diet sense before last Thanksgiving.  I'm still loosing
only slowly now.  Eating meat and eggs, heavy cream, real butter, and never
go hungry.  Here's the best part, I was taking 5 different water pills each
day, none now and no swelling ankles, no wheezing, blood pressure normal,
blood sugar is 82,  bad cholestrol is down and good up.  I've been denied
steak and eggs so long I feel like I died and went to heaven.  No taters,
rice, sugar, bread, ice cream, cookies, chips, etc.  Fried pork rinds and
sour cream type dip are OK.  Oh yeah, I walk 2 miles a day, 6 days a week.
If you want to talk to me about this some more, contact me off list or we'll
have people mad at us.  I have heart problems also, and my Doc. didn't like
this diet, but he says it's working so keep it up.   Dale


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bruce and Mary Nail" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Authenticity
Date: 15 Sep 2003 21:03:10 -0400

All the discussing the finer points of articles "documented" by paintings
and such causes me to recall the time I was in the "convenience" store a
while back and happened to notice a couple of gents standing there with cups
of coffee discussing some topic or other when I realized that they were
lumberjacks steeling themselves for the day's work in the northern Michigan
woods.  I couldn't help notice their attire, flannel, denim, sorrel boots,
and the ubiquitous carhardt coats.  These were men who were very comfortable
with the woods, and not one was any glamorous "woodsman" but I bet any one
of them could tell you anything you wanted to know about the woods in which
they worked.
  My point is that they took off the shelf everything they needed for
working the woods, and so too should we.  If it was available, then use it;
it doesn't work out, then discard  it.  It's what our modern-day woodsmen
do, and I guarantee it's what the trappers did too.
   For my twoo cents, utility+availability equals authenticity.
    Hope to see y'al on the trail



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 15 Sep 2003 18:25:53 -0700

Ben,

Listen to Dale. I've messed with the Atkins diet a bit this year and when I
stick to it I loose.

Capt. Lahti'


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 4:54 PM


> Hello the camp,
> Just a note to tell you how much I'm enjoying the conversations on this
> list.  I've learned a bunch, had a lot of memories jogged, and just
> generally had a good time.
> Only thing missing was the smoke from the campfire....ohhh...and the
liquid
> libations :)
> Dale, I gotta ask, how in the hell did you loose sixty pounds?  I got the
> same problem (can't breathe when bending over) but having a heck of a time
> loosing any weight.  I'm gainin' weight on 1200 calories and damn near
> starving to death. I know, more exercise, but it's hard to do when you're
> old, got diabetes, and workin' on half a heart.
> On a lighter note, the only saddle I ever remember using when we were back
> on the ranch was the old cinch/latigo strap type. You'd have to get off
and
> tighten it after riding thirty minutes or so. Damned horses were smarter
> than we were:)
> Ben
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
> >
> > > > then there were never any white women wearing calico dresses at the
> > > > rendezvous.  Miller never drew them, but from another source I found
> out
> > > > they were there every year from 1836 to 1840.  See what I mean?
> > >
> > > Then you have documentation right?  Miller has his weaknesses no
doubt.
> > He
> > > aint the only one but he was there.
> >
> > Yes, we have documentation on white women, and also on horse gear via
the
> > Smithsonian, and others that have researched this same topic, not just
> > Miller's drawings.  The trouble is when it comes to taps you won't
accept
> > the source as being valid so I reckon that's what all this has been
about
> > anyhow.  Valid sources.  You might not like the idea of taps, but I'm
> > satisfied that taps were used not just because they protect the feet and
> it
> > keeps one's moc clad foot from ending up through the stirrup and hung
up,
> > but because we all agree that they were used in the southwest and in
> > California at that time.  There might not be any proof that taps were
used
> > on the Upper Missouri by someone actually saying or a painting showing
> them.
> > But I'm not going to change my mind either, because so far I've seen
more
> > proof that monkey faced taps are of that era than I have that they are
> wrong
> > on the frontier.  I think any kind of taps would more likely be wrong in
> > Penn. or New Jersey than on the upper Missouri.  One fact we shouldn't
> > forget, and I tend to not think about myself, but the trade was also in
> what
> > was then Mexico.  The border with Mexico wasn't far south of Denver, and
> > these guys were traveling far and wide.  And just the fact the Mexican
> horse
> > gear was better than anything else has to mean something.  If it was
made
> in
> > Santa Fe and Taos, and being used there, and the mountain men were
there,
> > then they were using it as is.  If the maker put taps on the stirrups,
I'd
> > bet they weren't taken off.  Also,  Spanish bits were in use by the Nez
> > Perce when Lewis and Clark arrived, and they were the first white folks
> the
> > Nez Perce had seen (I think).  I don't think anyone knows if they were
> spade
> > bits from Calif. or came via Comanche then Shoshone to Nez Perce, but
they
> > had them.  We know the stuff was there, being used by Indians, so why
not
> > whites?
> >
> > > >   What does a cowboy stirrup look like.
> >
> > > The bent wood sturruips sometimes
> > > wrapped that we see on most saddles in the department store.  They may
a
> > > 1000 years old and used elsewhere but I haven't seen much to support
> them
> > in
> > > the Rocky Mtn fur trade.
> >
> > The ones nowdays on cheap saddles that are lined with metal would
> certainly
> > be wrong.  But bent wood stirrups are shown -- covered in rawhide in
some
> > cases -- on Indian saddles.  So why
> > not on the Sante Fe saddle also?  Miller's painting of the lost
greenhorn
> > looks like the guy is on an Indian pad saddle, and the stirrups are bent
> > wood, with the foot part looking like a stirrup from a Knights in Armor
> > saddle.  Almost the full length of the foot.  That's also a good
painting
> to
> > get an idea of how small the Indian ponies really were.  And he's using
a
> > snaffel bit on the pony.   Now this is where Miller gets to be really
> > disappointing -- because there is always a person, or grass, or brush in
> > front of what you want to see.  Never enough detail, like he avoids
detail
> > by covering it up.  I've gone back and looked at some of his paintings
> that
> > I have prints of, and there just isn't that much detail.  First there is
> > "Pierre, Rocky Mountain Trapper" by Miller.  Pierre is riding a mule,
with
> a
> > Spanish saddle and with a bit with shanks, like probably a curb bit of
> some
> > sort, but he is sitting in front of the stirrups.  Same thing in Millers
> > "Lost Trapper" -- he's riding a mule that's bridled with what looks like
a
> > store bought outfit.  Miller's got you in close enough to see the brow
> band,
> > throat latch and the buckle above the bit, but grass covers the bit,
that
> is
> > just a hint of what might be the shanks of a curb bit, and the trapper
is
> > standing in front of the stirrups.  Then there is the "Trapper in his
> > Solitary Camp" cooking a rack of ribs and cleaning or loading his rifle.
> > You can't see a horn on the saddle on account of the mule's head is in
the
> > way, again a bit with shanks, a brow band on the bridle and what looks
to
> me
> > like bent wood stirrups.  It very well could be an Indian pad saddle and
> > Indian stirrups, there is no way to prove differently, but he has what
> looks
> > to be the white man's bridle.  Then there is the "Trappers Starting for
> the
> > Hunt".  Three of themn are heading out.  One looks like an Indian (he
has
> > bow and arrows but he could well be white) with a large Mexican style
> cantle
> > on his saddle and he looks to be riding a horse.  Another is riding a
> shaved
> > tail, no doubt a mule, with a crupper under his tail.  It's a color
> painting
> > done in black and white, and I can't see any kind of a stirrup.  When
you
> > look at artists that are up 30 years after 1840, like Russel and other
> > painters of the 1850's to '70's they show the sawed cottonwood stirrups.
> > Anytime that I've been able to find a stirrup done by Miller it looks
like
> a
> > curved wooden one like the Smithsonian shows on Indian saddles.  I've
not
> > seen a sawed cottonwood stirrup on a Miller saddle.  Does that mean they
> > weren't their either?  We know Santa Fe saddles used them also.
> >
> > > Dale, this whole thing has gotten out of hand.
> >
> > Naw, I don't think it's out of hand.  You sure have driven me back to
the
> > books, and it's been kind of fun.  You think you sound old and
> opinionated,
> > shucks, I am old and opinionated.  I researched this stuff years ago,
> until
> > I had pretty well satisfied myself what would be right.  But that was a
> long
> > time ago, and you have made me go back and look again.  Divorce got the
> > ranch, and I no longer have horses, so it is no longer that important to
> me,
> > but fun to remember anyhow.  Haven't shod a horse sense my belly got too
> big
> > to bend over it.  Last time I nailed on shoes it was like I was diving
> under
> > water every time I bent over.  Had to come up for a breath before I
could
> > drive the next nail.  Don't worry about things getting out of hand, do
all
> > you can now, on account of life is too short, and looking back I didn't
> get
> > done half what I wanted to.  I aint dead yet, but there aint enough time
> or
> > money to do it all now.  I have gotten almost 60 pounds off my gut
though,
> > and I'm feeling good enough I just might saddle up and head for the back
> > country one more time.  Sold my shoeing tools and anvil to buy this
stupid
> > computer that I keep screwed up half the time.  I still have my roping
> > saddle, and I keep thinking that I need to get mounted and get back to
> team
> > roping, that's a really great old guys sport.  Enough of this.
> >
> > > not going to back off my personal beliefs but I should n't be trying
to
> > push
> > > them on everyone else.
> >
> > It's a lot more fun to have all your ducks in a row and let them come to
> > you.
> > Dale Nelson
> > Roseburg, OR
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snide remark
Date: 15 Sep 2003 20:32:32 -0500

I think the original discussion was about what dog breeds might be period
correct.....seems like mountain man discussion list stuff to me.  The thread
did wander a bit but I doubt any harm was done.
Lanney Ratcliff



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 11:17 AM


> Can someone tell me how to get off this dog discussion list and get back
> on the mountain man discussion list?
>
> Glenn Darilek
> Iron Burner
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Authenticity
Date: 15 Sep 2003 20:21:30 -0600

Bruce,

Your point is easy to understand and makes sense in the context of what
you've said, but the word "history" doesn't appear anywhere in your
email. "Historical authenticity" is what we are about here. Modern Native
Americans say everything they do is authentic because they are real
natives. They don't understand our pursuit of historical authenticity.

Todd

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:03:10 -0400 "Bruce and Mary Nail" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> All the discussing the finer points of articles "documented" by
> paintings
> and such causes me to recall the time I was in the "convenience"
> store a
> while back and happened to notice a couple of gents standing there
> with cups
> of coffee discussing some topic or other when I realized that they
> were
> lumberjacks steeling themselves for the day's work in the northern
> Michigan
> woods.  I couldn't help notice their attire, flannel, denim, sorrel
> boots,
> and the ubiquitous carhardt coats.  These were men who were very
> comfortable
> with the woods, and not one was any glamorous "woodsman" but I bet
> any one
> of them could tell you anything you wanted to know about the woods
> in which
> they worked.
>   My point is that they took off the shelf everything they needed
> for
> working the woods, and so too should we.  If it was available, then
> use it;
> it doesn't work out, then discard  it.  It's what our modern-day
> woodsmen
> do, and I guarantee it's what the trappers did too.
>    For my twoo cents, utility+availability equals authenticity.
>     Hope to see y'al on the trail
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags OT
Date: 15 Sep 2003 22:36:22 EDT


Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 9/15/2003 6:31:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:
the Atkins diet
Well, either we're way off-topic or we're talking about those 'saddle bags'
we humans carry around with us.... ;)

As a personal aside, I've done Atkins, which was painful if you love breads,
sweets, etc, but worked, and then I went to Weight Watchers. Down 30 pounds in
half as many weeks, and can eat anything I want, long as I keep track of its
point value and stay withing my range + freebies for the day.

Honestly haven't been hungry except maybe for the first couple of days, then
started eating zero point foods as snacks.

Many foods are easily gotten under name brands that have the 'point value'
right on the package. This makes it way convenient!

They even have the program available on the internet now so you don't have to
go to a danged meeting!

Barney

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUTF-8 http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3Dutf-8">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 9/15/2003 6:31:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, amm1719@=
charter.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>the Atkins diet </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>Well, either we're=
 way off-topic or we're talking about those 'saddle bags' we humans carry ar=
ound with us.... ;)</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080></FONT></STRONG>&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>As a personal asid=
e, I've done Atkins, which was painful if you love breads, sweets, etc,=
 but worked, and then I went to Weight Watchers. Down 30 pounds in half=
 as many weeks, and can eat anything I want, long as I keep track=20=
of its point value and stay withing my range + freebies for the day.</F=
ONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080></FONT></STRONG>&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>Honestly haven't b=
een hungry except maybe for the first couple of days, then started eating ze=
ro point foods as snacks.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080></FONT></STRONG>&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>Many foods are eas=
ily gotten under name brands that have the 'point value' right on the packag=
e. This makes it way convenient!</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080></FONT></STRONG>&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>They even have the=
 program available on the internet now so you don't have to go to a danged m=
eeting!</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080></FONT></STRONG>&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>Barney</FONT></STR=
ONG></DIV></BODY></HTML>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 15 Sep 2003 21:38:03 -0600

Rex Normon wrote "A common lament amoung Westerners is 'there isn't enough
information.'  In reality there is a great deal of information, however. it
is only now beginning to become accessible."  Miller does get fuzzy in
places that just torment the eyeballs, but even if he does not show the bit
in one painting or the sturrip in another there is plenty that he does show
to give us a good idea on those kind of visible things.  "Saddle horns",
saddle trees and rigging are even harder to try to see.

Dale do you know about the Indian made sturrips that Miller is painting?
They are bent wood covered with rawhide but the construction is upside down
to the stirrups we are used to.  The bent wood forms the top of the sturrip
and the flat base joins it together.

So what's up with the shaved tails?  I had wondered if those animals had a
lot of donkey in the mix and got those tails from Dad.  Why did they take
away the fly swatter?
Wynn

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 4:08 PM


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
>
> > > then there were never any white women wearing calico dresses at the
> > > rendezvous.  Miller never drew them, but from another source I found
out
> > > they were there every year from 1836 to 1840.  See what I mean?
> >
> > Then you have documentation right?  Miller has his weaknesses no doubt.
> He
> > aint the only one but he was there.
>
> Yes, we have documentation on white women, and also on horse gear via the
> Smithsonian, and others that have researched this same topic, not just
> Miller's drawings.  The trouble is when it comes to taps you won't accept
> the source as being valid so I reckon that's what all this has been about
> anyhow.  Valid sources.  You might not like the idea of taps, but I'm
> satisfied that taps were used not just because they protect the feet and
it
> keeps one's moc clad foot from ending up through the stirrup and hung up,
> but because we all agree that they were used in the southwest and in
> California at that time.  There might not be any proof that taps were used
> on the Upper Missouri by someone actually saying or a painting showing
them.
> But I'm not going to change my mind either, because so far I've seen more
> proof that monkey faced taps are of that era than I have that they are
wrong
> on the frontier.  I think any kind of taps would more likely be wrong in
> Penn. or New Jersey than on the upper Missouri.  One fact we shouldn't
> forget, and I tend to not think about myself, but the trade was also in
what
> was then Mexico.  The border with Mexico wasn't far south of Denver, and
> these guys were traveling far and wide.  And just the fact the Mexican
horse
> gear was better than anything else has to mean something.  If it was made
in
> Santa Fe and Taos, and being used there, and the mountain men were there,
> then they were using it as is.  If the maker put taps on the stirrups, I'd
> bet they weren't taken off.  Also,  Spanish bits were in use by the Nez
> Perce when Lewis and Clark arrived, and they were the first white folks
the
> Nez Perce had seen (I think).  I don't think anyone knows if they were
spade
> bits from Calif. or came via Comanche then Shoshone to Nez Perce, but they
> had them.  We know the stuff was there, being used by Indians, so why not
> whites?
>
> > >   What does a cowboy stirrup look like.
>
> > The bent wood sturruips sometimes
> > wrapped that we see on most saddles in the department store.  They may a
> > 1000 years old and used elsewhere but I haven't seen much to support
them
> in
> > the Rocky Mtn fur trade.
>
> The ones nowdays on cheap saddles that are lined with metal would
certainly
> be wrong.  But bent wood stirrups are shown -- covered in rawhide in some
> cases -- on Indian saddles.  So why
> not on the Sante Fe saddle also?  Miller's painting of the lost greenhorn
> looks like the guy is on an Indian pad saddle, and the stirrups are bent
> wood, with the foot part looking like a stirrup from a Knights in Armor
> saddle.  Almost the full length of the foot.  That's also a good painting
to
> get an idea of how small the Indian ponies really were.  And he's using a
> snaffel bit on the pony.   Now this is where Miller gets to be really
> disappointing -- because there is always a person, or grass, or brush in
> front of what you want to see.  Never enough detail, like he avoids detail
> by covering it up.  I've gone back and looked at some of his paintings
that
> I have prints of, and there just isn't that much detail.  First there is
> "Pierre, Rocky Mountain Trapper" by Miller.  Pierre is riding a mule, with
a
> Spanish saddle and with a bit with shanks, like probably a curb bit of
some
> sort, but he is sitting in front of the stirrups.  Same thing in Millers
> "Lost Trapper" -- he's riding a mule that's bridled with what looks like a
> store bought outfit.  Miller's got you in close enough to see the brow
band,
> throat latch and the buckle above the bit, but grass covers the bit, that
is
> just a hint of what might be the shanks of a curb bit, and the trapper is
> standing in front of the stirrups.  Then there is the "Trapper in his
> Solitary Camp" cooking a rack of ribs and cleaning or loading his rifle.
> You can't see a horn on the saddle on account of the mule's head is in the
> way, again a bit with shanks, a brow band on the bridle and what looks to
me
> like bent wood stirrups.  It very well could be an Indian pad saddle and
> Indian stirrups, there is no way to prove differently, but he has what
looks
> to be the white man's bridle.  Then there is the "Trappers Starting for
the
> Hunt".  Three of themn are heading out.  One looks like an Indian (he has
> bow and arrows but he could well be white) with a large Mexican style
cantle
> on his saddle and he looks to be riding a horse.  Another is riding a
shaved
> tail, no doubt a mule, with a crupper under his tail.  It's a color
painting
> done in black and white, and I can't see any kind of a stirrup.  When you
> look at artists that are up 30 years after 1840, like Russel and other
> painters of the 1850's to '70's they show the sawed cottonwood stirrups.
> Anytime that I've been able to find a stirrup done by Miller it looks like
a
> curved wooden one like the Smithsonian shows on Indian saddles.  I've not
> seen a sawed cottonwood stirrup on a Miller saddle.  Does that mean they
> weren't their either?  We know Santa Fe saddles used them also.
>
> > Dale, this whole thing has gotten out of hand.
>
> Naw, I don't think it's out of hand.  You sure have driven me back to the
> books, and it's been kind of fun.  You think you sound old and
opinionated,
> shucks, I am old and opinionated.  I researched this stuff years ago,
until
> I had pretty well satisfied myself what would be right.  But that was a
long
> time ago, and you have made me go back and look again.  Divorce got the
> ranch, and I no longer have horses, so it is no longer that important to
me,
> but fun to remember anyhow.  Haven't shod a horse sense my belly got too
big
> to bend over it.  Last time I nailed on shoes it was like I was diving
under
> water every time I bent over.  Had to come up for a breath before I could
> drive the next nail.  Don't worry about things getting out of hand, do all
> you can now, on account of life is too short, and looking back I didn't
get
> done half what I wanted to.  I aint dead yet, but there aint enough time
or
> money to do it all now.  I have gotten almost 60 pounds off my gut though,
> and I'm feeling good enough I just might saddle up and head for the back
> country one more time.  Sold my shoeing tools and anvil to buy this stupid
> computer that I keep screwed up half the time.  I still have my roping
> saddle, and I keep thinking that I need to get mounted and get back to
team
> roping, that's a really great old guys sport.  Enough of this.
>
> > not going to back off my personal beliefs but I should n't be trying to
> push
> > them on everyone else.
>
> It's a lot more fun to have all your ducks in a row and let them come to
> you.
> Dale Nelson
> Roseburg, OR
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "JIM BRYAN" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snide remark
Date: 16 Sep 2003 00:00:11 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I remain unharmed, at any rate....
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Lanney Ratcliff=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:32 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snide remark


  I think the original discussion was about what dog breeds might be =
period
  correct.....seems like mountain man discussion list stuff to me.  The =
thread
  did wander a bit but I doubt any harm was done.
  Lanney Ratcliff



  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
  To: <[e-mail]>
  Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 11:17 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Snide remark


  > Can someone tell me how to get off this dog discussion list and get =
back
  > on the mountain man discussion list?
  >
  > Glenn Darilek
  > Iron Burner
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > ----------------------
  > hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



  ----------------------
  hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type =
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1>
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DMailContainerBody=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 10px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
COLOR: #000000; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 15px; FONT-STYLE: =
normal; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; =
BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; TEXT-DECORATION: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: =
none"=20
leftMargin=3D0 topMargin=3D0 acc_role=3D"text" CanvasTabStop=3D"true"=20
name=3D"Compose message area"><?xml:namespace prefix=3D"v" =
/><?xml:namespace prefix=3D"o" />
<DIV>
<DIV>I remain unharmed, at any rate....</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Lanney Ratcliff</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 15, =
2003 8:32=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Snide=20
  remark</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>I think the original discussion was about what dog =
breeds might=20
  be period<BR>correct.....seems like mountain man discussion list stuff =
to=20
  me.  The thread<BR>did wander a bit but I doubt any harm was=20
  done.<BR>Lanney Ratcliff<BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- =
<BR>From:=20
  "Glenn Darilek" <<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">glenn@leaklocationservices=
.com</A>><BR>To:=20
  <<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>=
Sent:=20
  Monday, September 15, 2003 11:17 AM<BR>Subject: MtMan-List: Snide=20
  remark<BR><BR><BR>> Can someone tell me how to get off this dog =
discussion=20
  list and get back<BR>> on the mountain man discussion =
list?<BR>><BR>>=20
  Glenn Darilek<BR>> Iron =
Burner<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>=20
  ----------------------<BR>> hist_text list info: <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------=
------<BR>hist_text=20
  list info: <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></=
HTML>

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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snide remark
Date: 15 Sep 2003 22:36:14 -0700

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just wait till my dogs get ye ......  <g>   Randy



----- Original Message -----
Sent: 9/15/03 10:00:14 PM


I remain unharmed, at any rate....
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:32 PM


I think the original discussion was about what dog breeds might be period
correct.....seems like mountain man discussion list stuff to me.  The thread
did wander a bit but I doubt any harm was done.
Lanney Ratcliff



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 11:17 AM


> Can someone tell me how to get off this dog discussion list and get back
> on the mountain man discussion list?
>
> Glenn Darilek
> Iron Burner
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



----------------------
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif" xmlns:v xmlns:o><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1>
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=MailContainerBody style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 15px; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; TEXT-DECORATION: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none" leftMargin=0 topMargin=0 name="Compose message area" CanvasTabStop="true" acc_role="text">
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">just wait till my dogs get ye ......  <g>   Randy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=[e-mail] href="mailto:[e-mail]">JIM BRYAN</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=[e-mail] href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 9/15/03 10:00:14 PM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Snide remark</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV>
<DIV>I remain unharmed, at any rate....</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:[e-mail]">Lanney Ratcliff</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 15, 2003 8:32 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Snide remark</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I think the original discussion was about what dog breeds might be period<BR>correct.....seems like mountain man discussion list stuff to me.  The thread<BR>did wander a bit but I doubt any harm was done.<BR>Lanney Ratcliff<BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Glenn Darilek" <<A href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>To: <<A href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 11:17 AM<BR>Subject: MtMan-List: Snide remark<BR><BR><BR>> Can someone tell me how to get off this dog discussion list and get back<BR>> on the mountain man discussion list?<BR>><BR>> Glenn Darilek<BR>> Iron Burner<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ----------------------<BR>> hist_text list info: <A href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: <A href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: A J MILLER PAINTING
Date: 16 Sep 2003 05:58:36 -0500

The Amon Carter Museum in Ft Worth just added another Alfred Jacob Miller
painting to its collection.......Buffalo Hunt.  Don't miss the Carter when
you're in Ft Worth.  It's right across the street from the Kimball Museum,
both world class museums.

gallerydb.com/artists/Miller914/ art/small/buffalohun1482.jp

Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays



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From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snide remark
Date: 16 Sep 2003 08:12:12 -0700 (PDT)

--0-1830194733-1063725132=:85175
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Shucks, Glen

 Just saddle one of them dogs with a "Mt.Man" saddle and ride on !!!!<grin>

 I am wondering how effective those New Foundlands" were in saving the sailors ?

If the one drownrd the deer befor it retrieved it, what did they do to the men ??

grn








George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
--0-1830194733-1063725132=:85175
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P>Shucks, Glen</P>
<P> Just saddle one of them dogs with a "Mt.Man" saddle and ride on !!!!<grin></P>
<P> I am wondering how effective those New Foundlands" were in saving the sailors ?</P>
<P>If the one drownrd the deer befor it retrieved it, what did they do to the men ??</P>
<P>grn</P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>George R. Noe< [e-mail] >                           <br>Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.<p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=10469/*http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com">Yahoo! SiteBuilder</a> - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A J MILLER PAINTING
Date: 16 Sep 2003 12:52:56 EDT

Good info Lanney
Anyone know of locations where Miller  paintings can be viewed and which
paintings.
This would be good for traveling stops.

Alfred Jacob Miller 1810-1874
       The Amon Carter Museum in Ft Worth "Buffalo Hunt"

Or other Artists?
George Bingham 1811-1879
Charles Deas 1818-1867
Karl Bodmer 1809-1893
Rudolph Kurz 1818-1871
Peter Rindisbacher  1806-1834
William Ranney 1813-1857
Arthur Tait 1819-1905
George Catlin 1796-1872
John Mix Stanley 1814-1872
Charles Wimar  1828-1862
Seth Eastman 1808-1862
Or others that have that have made sketches

Thanks Mark #1849

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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A J MILLER PAINTING
Date: 16 Sep 2003 12:49:32 -0500

Click here for the Carter Museum.  The collection is vast and includes
perhaps more Russell and Remingtons than anywhere else in the world. I'm
almost certain that the museum has other Miller paintings as well.
http://www.cartermuseum.org/information_set.html

The Kimbell Museum is beyond description......among the very best in the
world.  It's incredible and is across the street from the Carter.
http://www.kimbellart.org/information/info.cfm?id=54
I don't think there are any  A J Miller's in there, but there are other
pretty good painters' stuff. Van Gogh, Rembrandt.....folks like that.  Plus
you are about two miles from the old FtWorth Stockyards where a person can
eat, drink and be merry....big time.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:52 AM


> Good info Lanney
> Anyone know of locations where Miller  paintings can be viewed and which
> paintings.
> This would be good for traveling stops.
>
> Alfred Jacob Miller 1810-1874
>        The Amon Carter Museum in Ft Worth "Buffalo Hunt"
>
> Or other Artists?
> George Bingham 1811-1879
> Charles Deas 1818-1867
> Karl Bodmer 1809-1893
> Rudolph Kurz 1818-1871
> Peter Rindisbacher  1806-1834
> William Ranney 1813-1857
> Arthur Tait 1819-1905
> George Catlin 1796-1872
> John Mix Stanley 1814-1872
> Charles Wimar  1828-1862
> Seth Eastman 1808-1862
> Or others that have that have made sketches
>
> Thanks Mark #1849
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Blatant Commerical For Rick Fisher, Deceased Poem & Story Tapes
Date: 16 Sep 2003 14:08:46 -0500

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Rick Fisher's tapes Tales of the Trail are now available.  The cost is =
$12.00 which includes shipping and a pricey padded envelope.

As many of you know, Rick, a skilled AMM Brother, who died unexpectedly =
in June while attending a rendezvous in Kansas, was a gifted story =
teller and poet.  This tape, produced and released just before he died =
contains some of his best stories and poems, and includes music by Bill =
Ramsel.

Regretably, it also includes the Ole Blue Hankie saga, otherwise known, =
in some circles, as Pablo, the Stupid Horseman, but I have found no way =
to remove it without damaging an otherwise fine collection.

For those interested, contact me off list.  I work on the honor system =
so if you tell me you are mailing me $12.00, I will immediately ship the =
tape to anyone so interested.

Regards,

Paul

Paul W. Jones
4609 Waycross
Houston, Texas 77035
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Rick Fisher's tapes <EM>Tales of the Trail =
</EM>are=20
now available.  The cost is $12.00 which includes shipping and a =
pricey=20
padded envelope.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>As many of you know, Rick, a =
skilled AMM Brother,=20
who died unexpectedly in June while attending a rendezvous in =
Kansas, was a=20
gifted story teller and poet.  This tape, produced and released =
just before=20
he died contains some of his best stories and poems, and includes music =
by Bill=20
Ramsel.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Regretably, it also includes the <EM>Ole =
Blue=20
Hankie</EM> saga, otherwise known, in some circles, as Pablo, =
the=20
Stupid Horseman, but I have found no way to remove it without damaging =
an=20
otherwise fine collection.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>For those interested, contact me off =
list.  I=20
work on the honor system so if you tell me you are mailing me $12.00, I =
will=20
immediately ship the tape to anyone so interested.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Paul</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Paul W. Jones</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>4609 Waycross</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Houston, Texas=20
77035</FONT></STRONG></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blatant Commerical
Date: 16 Sep 2003 15:46:49 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C37C69.BE0F4D30
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Paul,
    Money is on the way.   =20
YFAB,   John




The Stitchin' Scotsman
100% Handsewn Elkhide garments
and moccasins
Manu Forti
www.stitchinscotsman.com
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Paul Jones=20
  To: [e-mail] ; [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:08 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Blatant Commerical For Rick Fisher, Deceased Poem =
& Story Tapes


  Rick Fisher's tapes Tales of the Trail are now available.  The cost is =
$12.00 which includes shipping and a pricey padded envelope.

  As many of you know, Rick, a skilled AMM Brother, who died =
unexpectedly in June while attending a rendezvous in Kansas, was a =
gifted story teller and poet.  This tape, produced and released just =
before he died contains some of his best stories and poems, and includes =
music by Bill Ramsel.

  Regretably, it also includes the Ole Blue Hankie saga, otherwise =
known, in some circles, as Pablo, the Stupid Horseman, but I have found =
no way to remove it without damaging an otherwise fine collection.

  For those interested, contact me off list.  I work on the honor system =
so if you tell me you are mailing me $12.00, I will immediately ship the =
tape to anyone so interested.

  Regards,

  Paul

  Paul W. Jones
  4609 Waycross
  Houston, Texas 77035
------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C37C69.BE0F4D30
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Paul,</DIV>
<DIV>    Money is on the way.    </DIV>
<DIV>YFAB,   John</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Stitchin' Scotsman<BR>100% Handsewn Elkhide garments<BR>and=20
moccasins<BR>Manu Forti<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.stitchinscotsman.com">www.stitchinscotsman.com</A></DI=
V>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Paul Jones</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=
 ; <A=20
  title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 16, =
2003 2:08=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Blatant =
Commerical=20
  For Rick Fisher, Deceased Poem & Story Tapes</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Rick Fisher's tapes <EM>Tales of the Trail =
</EM>are=20
  now available.  The cost is $12.00 which includes shipping and a =
pricey=20
  padded envelope.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>As many of you know, Rick, a =
skilled AMM=20
  Brother, who died unexpectedly in June while attending a =
rendezvous in=20
  Kansas, was a gifted story teller and poet.  This tape, produced =
and=20
  released just before he died contains some of his best stories and =
poems, and=20
  includes music by Bill Ramsel.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Regretably, it also includes the <EM>Ole =
Blue=20
  Hankie</EM> saga, otherwise known, in some circles, as =
Pablo, the=20
  Stupid Horseman, but I have found no way to remove it without damaging =
an=20
  otherwise fine collection.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>For those interested, contact me off =
list.  I=20
  work on the honor system so if you tell me you are mailing me $12.00, =
I will=20
  immediately ship the tape to anyone so =
interested.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Paul</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Paul W. Jones</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>4609 Waycross</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Houston, Texas=20
77035</FONT></STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C37C69.BE0F4D30--



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blatant Commerical
Date: 16 Sep 2003 16:06:06 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C37C6C.6FECADC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mr. McKee,

The tape is packaged and will be in the mail tomorrow morning.  Great =
website.

Regards and thanks,

Paul
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: John McKee=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:46 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blatant Commerical=20


  Paul,
      Money is on the way.   =20
  YFAB,   John




  The Stitchin' Scotsman
  100% Handsewn Elkhide garments
  and moccasins
  Manu Forti
  www.stitchinscotsman.com
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Paul Jones=20
    To: [e-mail] ; [e-mail]=20
    Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:08 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Blatant Commerical For Rick Fisher, Deceased =
Poem & Story Tapes


    Rick Fisher's tapes Tales of the Trail are now available.  The cost =
is $12.00 which includes shipping and a pricey padded envelope.

    As many of you know, Rick, a skilled AMM Brother, who died =
unexpectedly in June while attending a rendezvous in Kansas, was a =
gifted story teller and poet.  This tape, produced and released just =
before he died contains some of his best stories and poems, and includes =
music by Bill Ramsel.

    Regretably, it also includes the Ole Blue Hankie saga, otherwise =
known, in some circles, as Pablo, the Stupid Horseman, but I have found =
no way to remove it without damaging an otherwise fine collection.

    For those interested, contact me off list.  I work on the honor =
system so if you tell me you are mailing me $12.00, I will immediately =
ship the tape to anyone so interested.

    Regards,

    Paul

    Paul W. Jones
    4609 Waycross
    Houston, Texas 77035
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C37C6C.6FECADC0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Mr. McKee,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>The tape is packaged and will be in the mail =
tomorrow=20
morning.  Great website.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Regards and thanks,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Paul</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">John=20
  McKee</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 16, =
2003 3:46=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Blatant=20
  Commerical </DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Paul,</DIV>
  <DIV>    Money is on the way.    </DIV>
  <DIV>YFAB,   John</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>The Stitchin' Scotsman<BR>100% Handsewn Elkhide garments<BR>and=20
  moccasins<BR>Manu Forti<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.stitchinscotsman.com">www.stitchinscotsman.com</A></DI=
V>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Paul=20
    Jones</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=
 ; <A=20
    title=[e-mail]=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 16, =
2003 2:08=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Blatant =
Commerical=20
    For Rick Fisher, Deceased Poem & Story Tapes</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Rick Fisher's tapes <EM>Tales of the =
Trail=20
    </EM>are now available.  The cost is $12.00 which includes =
shipping and=20
    a pricey padded envelope.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>As many of you know, Rick, a =
skilled AMM=20
    Brother, who died unexpectedly in June while attending a =
rendezvous in=20
    Kansas, was a gifted story teller and poet.  This tape, =
produced and=20
    released just before he died contains some of his best stories and =
poems,=20
    and includes music by Bill Ramsel.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Regretably, it also includes the <EM>Ole =
Blue=20
    Hankie</EM> saga, otherwise known, in some circles, as =
Pablo, the=20
    Stupid Horseman, but I have found no way to remove it without =
damaging an=20
    otherwise fine collection.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>For those interested, contact me off =
list.  I=20
    work on the honor system so if you tell me you are mailing me =
$12.00, I will=20
    immediately ship the tape to anyone so =
interested.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Paul</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Paul W. Jones</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>4609 Waycross</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
    <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Houston, Texas=20
  77035</FONT></STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A J MILLER PAINTING
Date: 16 Sep 2003 16:18:16 -0500

Anyone know of locations where Miller  paintings can be viewed and which
paintings.
This would be good for traveling stops.

Mark,
  The Gilcrease Museum in Tulsa, OK has a good number of Miller's paintings
and, if I remember correctly, they also have some of his original sketches
on display.

Pendleton


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A J MILLER PAINTING
Date: 16 Sep 2003 16:20:36 -0500

Plus
you are about two miles from the old FtWorth Stockyards where a person can
eat, drink and be merry....big time.
Lanney

>> That's right !  If you can't have a LARGE TIME at the Stockyards, you
jist ain't cultured !

Pendleton


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A J MILLER PAINTING
Date: 16 Sep 2003 16:36:47 -0500

The Gilcrease Museum in Tulsa, OK has a good number of Miller's paintings

>> They also have a large number of Remington's.  One in particular is the
damndest thing I've ever seen.  It's a young Indian Lad who has ridden his
horse right up in the middle of a big Buffalo Bull.  The horse is on top of
the buffalo, he's going nuts, there's dirt and grass and all kinds of stuff
flyin and the young Indian Lad is airborn.  Ought to be titled OH SHIT !

Pendleton


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JIM BRYAN" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: A J MILLER PAINTING
Date: 16 Sep 2003 17:32:35 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_05E1_01C37C78.84A5E450
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Also, the Sid Richardson Museum (free...you may donate if you wish) in =
Downtown Ft Worth across from Sundance Square has an incredible =
collection of Remington's and Russells....paintings and bronzes..

Absalom
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Lanney Ratcliff=20
  To: History List ; AMM=20
  Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 5:58 AM
  Subject: AMM-List: A J MILLER PAINTING


  The Amon Carter Museum in Ft Worth just added another Alfred Jacob =
Miller
  painting to its collection.......Buffalo Hunt.  Don't miss the Carter =
when
  you're in Ft Worth.  It's right across the street from the Kimball =
Museum,
  both world class museums.

  gallerydb.com/artists/Miller914/ art/small/buffalohun1482.jp

  Lanney Ratcliff
  [e-mail]
  ______________________________________________________________
  Aux Aliments du Pays



  --------------------
  Aux Aliments de Pays!

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type =
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1>
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DMailContainerBody=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 10px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
COLOR: #000000; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 15px; FONT-STYLE: =
normal; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; =
BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; TEXT-DECORATION: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: =
none"=20
leftMargin=3D0 topMargin=3D0 acc_role=3D"text" CanvasTabStop=3D"true"=20
name=3D"Compose message area"><?xml:namespace prefix=3D"v" =
/><?xml:namespace prefix=3D"o" />
<DIV>
<DIV>Also, the Sid Richardson Museum (free...you may donate if you wish) =
in=20
Downtown Ft Worth across from Sundance Square has an incredible =
collection of=20
Remington's and Russells....paintings and bronzes..</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Absalom</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Lanney Ratcliff</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">History List</A> ; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">AMM</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 16, =
2003 5:58=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> AMM-List: A J MILLER=20
  PAINTING</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>The Amon Carter Museum in Ft Worth just added another =
Alfred=20
  Jacob Miller<BR>painting to its collection.......Buffalo Hunt.  =
Don't=20
  miss the Carter when<BR>you're in Ft Worth.  It's right across =
the street=20
  from the Kimball Museum,<BR>both world class=20
  museums.<BR><BR>gallerydb.com/artists/Miller914/=20
  art/small/buffalohun1482.jp<BR><BR>Lanney Ratcliff<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=
<BR>______________________________________________________________<BR>Aux=
=20
  Aliments du Pays<BR><BR><BR><BR>--------------------<BR>Aux Aliments =
de=20
  Pays!<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Remington's work
Date: 16 Sep 2003 18:25:31 -0600

Lots of people compare Remington and Russel's work.  Their work is
detailed, esthetic and apparently extremely accurate.   Nevertheless,
some don't consider Remington an "artist" because much of his work was
for hire through "Frank Leslie's Illustrated Jourrnal" (he was one of
the newpaper illustrators  present at Wounded Knee),  and William
Randolph Hearst dispatched him to Cuba to send back illustrations of the
war (while Remington was in Cuba he allegedly told Hearst 'there is no
war here,' to which Hearst is said to have responded, "you supply the
pictures, I'll make the war.").  Remington was hired to be with the the
military and sketch  them (I think the military paid him, but it could
have been Frank Leslie's).

Call them artists or illustrators, I like them both.
Sparks



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Remington's work
Date: 16 Sep 2003 19:14:33 -0700

Remington's work is really great if you are researching the army of the
Indian wars/Spanish American war.  But he wasn't even born during the fur
trade, so nothing that happened then is from first hand experience.  Russel
lived with the Indians during the early reservation period, and he knew some
of the old mountain men, but he wasn't there either.  So you have to be
careful with both if you are striving for authenticity up to 1840.
Dale Nelson


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 5:25 PM


> Lots of people compare Remington and Russel's work.  Their work is
> detailed, esthetic and apparently extremely accurate.   Nevertheless,
> some don't consider Remington an "artist" because much of his work was
> for hire through "Frank Leslie's Illustrated Jourrnal" (he was one of
> the newpaper illustrators  present at Wounded Knee),  and William
> Randolph Hearst dispatched him to Cuba to send back illustrations of the
> war (while Remington was in Cuba he allegedly told Hearst 'there is no
> war here,' to which Hearst is said to have responded, "you supply the
> pictures, I'll make the war.").  Remington was hired to be with the the
> military and sketch  them (I think the military paid him, but it could
> have been Frank Leslie's).
>
> Call them artists or illustrators, I like them both.
> Sparks
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 16 Sep 2003 19:50:39 -0700

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:38 PM


> So what's up with the shaved tails?  I had wondered if those animals had a
> lot of donkey in the mix and got those tails from Dad.  Why did they take
> away the fly swatter?
> Wynn

That's why a second lieutenant in the army is called a shave tail.  They
shave -- and in some cases bell -- the tails on the mules.  Hence a second
louey is being refered to as a mule.  The outfits I worked for did it, but
mostly out of tradition I think.  One old timer I worked with wouldn't let
them bell the tails of the mules in his string.  He said it makes his Molly
mule look like a whore.  I think -- but this isn't a backed up fact, and I
can't prove it, but I remember being told that the shaved upper part of the
tail was so when you were catching up your livestock in the dark you could
tell the horses from the mules.  The bells were cut in the tail to show what
the mule was trained for.  Saddle mule had one cut, pack mule another,
harness in the team yet another, stuff like that.  Going one step further,
in California when they were training bridle horses, it took several years
to get them into a bit.  They'd start in a hackamore, then in a year or two
when the horse would handled well in that rig they'd put the heavy spade gag
bit in his mouth and let him carry it and work the roller and get used to
it, for maybe another year, then they'd ride him with four reins for a year
or so, just using the bit when they were doing easy work, but going back to
the hachamore for anything that might make you a little more heavy handed.
After another year or so they would have the horse bitted up, using one of
those California gag spade bits that folks that don't know any better think
is for hard mouthed horses.  But it's just the opposite.  They are for the
lightest mouthed bridle horses ever.  A well trained California bridle horse
will slide to a stop, and roll back over his hocks, or from a standing start
spin 180 degrees front feet hitting the ground at 90, and you won't see the
riders hand move.  The bit is not painful to the horse, but the way it is
designed the slighest movement of the hands is relayed to the horses mouth.
Sounds like I'm way off subject, talking about shaved tails, so I'll get
back, sorta.  This is about notches cut or shaved into the mane.  Up by the
horses ears they'd cut a notch in the mane to show what the horse was being
ridden with.  One cut for a hackamore, another for bit and hackamore, and a
third cut to tell if he was a finished bridle horse.  Then when you didn't
know any of the horses in that herd and you cut one out of the bunch you
knew what he was being ridden with, and wouldn't ruin someones years of
work.
Dale Nelson


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From: Rick Guglielmi <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 17 Sep 2003 05:39:09 -0700

Dale,
Interesting piece on shaved tails and progression of bits on a California
reining horse.  I was always told that a shaved tail on a mule (shaved at
the bace,not the belled) indicated a young mule, which is where the term
came about for 2nd lieutenants in the army.  A shaved tailed second
Lieutenant was right out of the Acadamy or some other officer trainig program.

Since I am typing away here I would like to add something to the
disscussion on stirrups and taps.  Once again i refer back to the book "Man
Made Moble".  There are several pictures and discriptions of what they call
a Hybrid saddle, which if I read things right is also what is termed a
"half spanish" saddle.  The Saddle makers or the St. Louis area seemed to
be pretty stuck in their ways and not willing to accept the quailities of
the spanich rigs so they seemed to "Americanized" the spanich trees with
some of the english features.  Getting to my point from what I read this
was taking place as early as the 1930's.  The pictures show pear-shaped
bent wood stirrups and stirrup covers or Tapaderas.  The dates on the sadle
are shown as 1840.  As I mentioned earlier, This type of saddle just does
not look like it would hold up under the hars conditions of the Mountain
west.  It would not be hard to convince me that as these "Hybrid" saddles
began to fall apart they were reworked to resemble the true spanish saddle
by either their owner while in a winter camp or possibley a mexican saddle
maker in the settlements of Northern Mexico.  Removal of the padding both
under the bars and on the seat, heavy stirrup leathers over the bars
instead of though a metal ring and stouter type of rigging.

Keep the information, opinions and ideas coming, although I am short on
research material I am continually trying to apply some type of practical
sense to the knowledge I do have and how that would evolve in a real life
situation.  Such as how I would carry items on my saddle without the use of
saddle bags, this isn't brain surgery and common sense and materials at
hand at the time would dictate how I would arrive at my goal.  It could be
as simple as a piece of canvas, or blanket with the neccessary gear wrapped
up and tied off, then this could be roled up in your bed roll, coat or what
ever you tied on behing the cantel. or your canvas wrapped items could be
tied on seperately.  Anyway I am starting to ramble, more later.

Rick


At 07:50 PM 09/16/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:38 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
>
>
> > So what's up with the shaved tails?  I had wondered if those animals had a
> > lot of donkey in the mix and got those tails from Dad.  Why did they take
> > away the fly swatter?
> > Wynn
>
>That's why a second lieutenant in the army is called a shave tail.  They
>shave -- and in some cases bell -- the tails on the mules.  Hence a second
>louey is being refered to as a mule.  The outfits I worked for did it, but
>mostly out of tradition I think.  One old timer I worked with wouldn't let
>them bell the tails of the mules in his string.  He said it makes his Molly
>mule look like a whore.  I think -- but this isn't a backed up fact, and I
>can't prove it, but I remember being told that the shaved upper part of the
>tail was so when you were catching up your livestock in the dark you could
>tell the horses from the mules.  The bells were cut in the tail to show what
>the mule was trained for.  Saddle mule had one cut, pack mule another,
>harness in the team yet another, stuff like that.  Going one step further,
>in California when they were training bridle horses, it took several years
>to get them into a bit.  They'd start in a hackamore, then in a year or two
>when the horse would handled well in that rig they'd put the heavy spade gag
>bit in his mouth and let him carry it and work the roller and get used to
>it, for maybe another year, then they'd ride him with four reins for a year
>or so, just using the bit when they were doing easy work, but going back to
>the hachamore for anything that might make you a little more heavy handed.
>After another year or so they would have the horse bitted up, using one of
>those California gag spade bits that folks that don't know any better think
>is for hard mouthed horses.  But it's just the opposite.  They are for the
>lightest mouthed bridle horses ever.  A well trained California bridle horse
>will slide to a stop, and roll back over his hocks, or from a standing start
>spin 180 degrees front feet hitting the ground at 90, and you won't see the
>riders hand move.  The bit is not painful to the horse, but the way it is
>designed the slighest movement of the hands is relayed to the horses mouth.
>Sounds like I'm way off subject, talking about shaved tails, so I'll get
>back, sorta.  This is about notches cut or shaved into the mane.  Up by the
>horses ears they'd cut a notch in the mane to show what the horse was being
>ridden with.  One cut for a hackamore, another for bit and hackamore, and a
>third cut to tell if he was a finished bridle horse.  Then when you didn't
>know any of the horses in that herd and you cut one out of the bunch you
>knew what he was being ridden with, and wouldn't ruin someones years of
>work.
>Dale Nelson
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 17 Sep 2003 07:52:02 -0700

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:39 AM


> Dale,
> Interesting piece on shaved tails and progression of bits on a California
> reining horse.  I was always told that a shaved tail on a mule (shaved at
> the bace,not the belled) indicated a young mule, which is where the term
> came about for 2nd lieutenants in the army.  A shaved tailed second
> Lieutenant was right out of the Acadamy or some other officer trainig
program.

Rick,
Like I said, don't take anything I said about mule tails as the unvarnished
truth.  I'm just repeating what I've been told in the distant past.  I think
I'd tend to believe what you were told about the lieutenants being called
shave tails, and figure the bells were some sort of a code to keep the
critters sorted out and doing what they are supposed to.  I suppose people
that hadn't been around mules, and there are lots of them in this day and
age, looking at Miller paintings would figure the critters were born with a
tail like that, which isn't true, and there was a reason for cutting the
hair off them.  Maybe somebody in a journal somewhere wrote the reason why,
and then the finder of that information will share with us.
Dale


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Shave tails
Date: 17 Sep 2003 13:37:36 -0400


Guys, I've been following this thread with quite a bit of interests, as my knowledge base on horses and and saddlery is absolutely nill, but I thought I'd volunteer this etymological tidbit on the "Shaved tail" thread"

Here's Webster's take on the origins of the word:

"Etymology: from the practice of shaving the tails of newly broken mules to distinguish them from seasoned ones
1 : a pack mule especially when newly broken in
2 usually disparaging : SECOND LIEUTENANT."

here's where I found it. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=shavetails
and The main website is  merriamwebster.com


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
Date: 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT)

    It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches of
snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
Thank God.
    I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That was
a nice sight.
    Fall has come to the Rockies.
             bb


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From: "Don  & Janice Shero" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Museums
Date: 17 Sep 2003 15:27:07 -0500

  Check out the website for Gilcrease museum in Tulsa.
Also Woolaroc museum and Davis Gun museum are close.
 & The museum of the Southern Plains Indian in OK.  Don

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From: "David A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
Date: 17 Sep 2003 14:31:07 -0600

It was snowing here, this morning, in the Southern end of the Cache
Valley (Willow Valley to you mountaineers)... been watching those long
necks heading south for the last month... might be an early winter...
maybe a hard one at that!



On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT) [e-mail] writes:
>     It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches
> of
> snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
> Thank God.
>     I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
> firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That
> was
> a nice sight.
>     Fall has come to the Rockies.
>              bb
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
Date: 17 Sep 2003 14:47:11 -0600 (MDT)

    I'm no mountaineer. Just have to pass over the big divide weekly. A
different breed of cat lives on the west side of the mountains in
Montana.
    I live on the plains and hunt the breaks and coulee country! Now that
is country! Where a man can see for thirty miles on a clear day.
    Where is the Cache Valley anyway?



> It was snowing here, this morning, in the Southern end of the Cache
> Valley (Willow Valley to you mountaineers)... been watching those long
> necks heading south for the last month... might be an early winter...
> maybe a hard one at that!
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT) [e-mail] writes:
>>     It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches
>> of
>> snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
>> Thank God.
>>     I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
>> firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That
>> was
>> a nice sight.
>>     Fall has come to the Rockies.
>>              bb
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info:
>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
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From: "David A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
Date: 17 Sep 2003 14:59:34 -0600

Cache Valley is where Logan Utah  is located.
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:47:11 -0600 (MDT) [e-mail] writes:
>     I'm no mountaineer. Just have to pass over the big divide weekly.
> A
> different breed of cat lives on the west side of the mountains in
> Montana.
>     I live on the plains and hunt the breaks and coulee country! Now
> that
> is country! Where a man can see for thirty miles on a clear day.
>     Where is the Cache Valley anyway?
>
>
>
> > It was snowing here, this morning, in the Southern end of the
> Cache
> > Valley (Willow Valley to you mountaineers)... been watching those
> long
> > necks heading south for the last month... might be an early
> winter...
> > maybe a hard one at that!
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT) [e-mail]
> writes:
> >>     It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4"
> inches
> >> of
> >> snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
> >> Thank God.
> >>     I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
> >> firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That
> >> was
> >> a nice sight.
> >>     Fall has come to the Rockies.
> >>              bb
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info:
> >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>

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From: "Bruce Nail" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Authenticity
Date: 17 Sep 2003 18:31:31 -0400

excellent point Todd, I agree completely. I default to "historical
authenticity" I forget that others consider cultural authenticity as viable.
for me, historical authenticity is paramount. and as "living historians" we
must strive for the most historically authentic experience possible, I just
meant we should pay a bit more attention to the common articles and
suppliers of the day and less on the more (I feel) idealized depiction of
artists.

  ----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 10:21 PM


> Bruce,
>
> Your point is easy to understand and makes sense in the context of what
> you've said, but the word "history" doesn't appear anywhere in your
> email. "Historical authenticity" is what we are about here. Modern Native
> Americans say everything they do is authentic because they are real
> natives. They don't understand our pursuit of historical authenticity.
>
> Todd
>
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:03:10 -0400 "Bruce and Mary Nail" <[e-mail]>
> writes:
> > All the discussing the finer points of articles "documented" by
> > paintings
> > and such causes me to recall the time I was in the "convenience"
> > store a
> > while back and happened to notice a couple of gents standing there
> > with cups
> > of coffee discussing some topic or other when I realized that they
> > were
> > lumberjacks steeling themselves for the day's work in the northern
> > Michigan
> > woods.  I couldn't help notice their attire, flannel, denim, sorrel
> > boots,
> > and the ubiquitous carhardt coats.  These were men who were very
> > comfortable
> > with the woods, and not one was any glamorous "woodsman" but I bet
> > any one
> > of them could tell you anything you wanted to know about the woods
> > in which
> > they worked.
> >   My point is that they took off the shelf everything they needed
> > for
> > working the woods, and so too should we.  If it was available, then
> > use it;
> > it doesn't work out, then discard  it.  It's what our modern-day
> > woodsmen
> > do, and I guarantee it's what the trappers did too.
> >    For my twoo cents, utility+availability equals authenticity.
> >     Hope to see y'al on the trail
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Sean Boushie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
Date: 17 Sep 2003 22:41:16 +0000

Phewww I thought you were gonna say "you had a son now you need a wife." Now
that would be a problem!!!!  At least the weather has the elk bugling!!!


>From: [e-mail]
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT)
>
>     It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches of
>snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
>Thank God.
>     I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
>firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That was
>a nice sight.
>     Fall has come to the Rockies.
>              bb
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: James and Sue Stone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
Date: 17 Sep 2003 18:44:30 -0600


--------------090307060604070401040502
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Maybe we'll even have a worthwhile waterfowl season  this year.
Sparks (closer to the lake)

David A. Miller wrote:

>It was snowing here, this morning, in the Southern end of the Cache
>Valley (Willow Valley to you mountaineers)... been watching those long
>necks heading south for the last month... might be an early winter...
>maybe a hard one at that!
>
>
>
>On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT) [e-mail] writes:
>
>
>>    It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches
>>of
>>snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
>>Thank God.
>>    I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
>>firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That
>>was
>>a nice sight.
>>    Fall has come to the Rockies.
>>             bb
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info:
>>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>________________________________________________________________
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>Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
>Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
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>
>
>


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Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
Maybe we'll even have a worthwhile waterfowl season  this year.<br>
Sparks (closer to the lake)<br>
<br>
David A. Miller wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="[e-mail]">
  <pre wrap="">It was snowing here, this morning, in the Southern end of the Cache
Valley (Willow Valley to you mountaineers)... been watching those long
necks heading south for the last month... might be an early winter...
maybe a hard one at that!



On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT) <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a> writes:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">    It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches
of
snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
Thank God.
    I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That
was
a nice sight.
    Fall has come to the Rockies.
             bb


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    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
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  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------090307060604070401040502--


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From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
Date: 18 Sep 2003 01:01:56 -0400

On Wednesday September 17 2003 4:31 pm, David A. Miller wrote:
> It was snowing here, this morning, in the Southern end of the Cache
> Valley (Willow Valley to you mountaineers)... been watching those
> long necks heading south for the last month... might be an early
> winter... maybe a hard one at that!

So far, it looks like a mild winter here in Central NY.

Fred

--
"...Linux, MS-DOS, and Windows XP (also known as the Good, the Bad, and
the Ugly)."


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From: Rick Guglielmi <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Date: 18 Sep 2003 05:07:53 -0700

So many questions, so little time answers but that is the fun of it all.  I
have so many papers spread out in my room trying to unravel some of the
saddle mysteries and the father I look the more questions I have.  Keep the
dialoge going.

Rick

At 07:52 AM 09/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Rick Guglielmi" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:39 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
>
>
> > Dale,
> > Interesting piece on shaved tails and progression of bits on a California
> > reining horse.  I was always told that a shaved tail on a mule (shaved at
> > the bace,not the belled) indicated a young mule, which is where the term
> > came about for 2nd lieutenants in the army.  A shaved tailed second
> > Lieutenant was right out of the Acadamy or some other officer trainig
>program.
>
>Rick,
>Like I said, don't take anything I said about mule tails as the unvarnished
>truth.  I'm just repeating what I've been told in the distant past.  I think
>I'd tend to believe what you were told about the lieutenants being called
>shave tails, and figure the bells were some sort of a code to keep the
>critters sorted out and doing what they are supposed to.  I suppose people
>that hadn't been around mules, and there are lots of them in this day and
>age, looking at Miller paintings would figure the critters were born with a
>tail like that, which isn't true, and there was a reason for cutting the
>hair off them.  Maybe somebody in a journal somewhere wrote the reason why,
>and then the finder of that information will share with us.
>Dale
>
>
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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Paintings
Date: 18 Sep 2003 12:26:13 -0500

Another art gallery that has Miller's paintings is the Walters Gallery
in Baltimore.  In 1996 I posted the following to these pages:

The following is my informal study of Miller's paintings that the reader
may
find useful to while away a few idle minutes.

LESSONS LEARNED FROM ALFRED JACOB MILLER

by Iron Burner

Artist Alfred Jacob Miller was born in Baltimore in 1810.
Having shown some promise as an artist at an early age, he
studied art in Baltimore. His family and friends sent him to
Paris and Rome in 1833 to study art. He said he was the
first American allowed to copy paintings in the Louvre. When
he returned to Baltimore he evidently had a difficult time
making a living, and had some family problems so in the fall
of 1836 he went to New Orleans to establish a studio. His
talents were discovered by Captain William Drummond Stewart
from Scotland, who had spent the last four years in the West,
and was preparing to go there again that summer. Stewart
commissioned Miller to travel west with him to document the
West in drawings. They attended the 1837 rendezvous on the
Green River. Stewart took Miller to Scotland where he stayed
in his employ from 1840 to 1841. Miller returned to Baltimore in
1842 where he established a farm he named Lorraine. He
continued to paint western scenes based on his 1837 expedition,
and he took in art students. In 1858, art connoisseur William
Walters discovered that Miller was living near Baltimore, and
commissioned him to paint pictures recreating his journey
west. He painted 200 watercolors at $12.00 each. Miller
continued to paint, but made most of his living from
investments he made in his brother's business. He died in
1874.


Bernard DeVoto in his book "Across the Wide Missouri" said
that many of Miller's paintings were still in Baltimore, so I
took the opportunity of my recent travel to that city to look at
some of the paintings. The drawings are at the Walters Art
Gallery.


The Miller paintings occupied one room with one Remington
sculpture. Actually the museum still has the 200
watercolors, but only six were exhibited with four other Miller
oil paintings. The oils that were on exhibit were:


(1) Trappers Bride (1841);
(2) Rocky Mountain Scene;
(3) Sioux Indians in the Mountains; and
(4) Portrait of Antione.


The water colors that were on exhibit were:


(5) Camp Fire -Preparing an Evening Meal;
(6) Moonlight Camp Scene;
(7) Crossing the River Moonlight;
(8) Pipe of Peace;
(9) Noon Day Rest; and
(10) Camp Receiving a Supply of Meat.


I closely examined these paintings for more than an hour,
taking notes in particular on mountain man details. Miller did
not draw background figures in any detail, so in many cases, the
viewer has to judge what was being depicted. For example,
the presence of beards was hard to judge in some cases
because Miller drew background faces with dark shadowing.


I learned that the 200 Miller paintings had been published in a
book is called "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" with Miller's
contemporary notes and an account of the artist by Marvin
C. Ross. Fortunately I found a copy in the San Antonio public
library and checked it out. I was amazed at this treasure trove.
This book amounts to a photo album of mountain men and Indians
drawn by someone whose job was to document the West in 1837.


The book has reproductions of all 200 of the Walters
watercolors and eight others. It has nine of the watercolors
reproduced in color, but the rest of the paintings are black
and white. Some of the paintings are mostly scenery, and a
lot of the paintings are of Indians and the Indian's way of
life. But a full 80 of the paintings have some details about
mountain men.


Almost as good as the paintings are Miller's written descriptions
and amplifications of the scenes painted. He describes the
scenes and adds interesting bits of information that are
often very relevant to those of us who want to be more
authentic.


At first I had some reservations about the accuracy of the
drawings. The 200 water colors were painted in 1858, 21
years after Miller had been to the West. Miller took a lot
of notes along his way, but one wonders how much he drew from
the notes, how much from memory, and how much from more
contemporary times. Miller was chosen by Stewart to "sketch
the remarkable scenery & incidents of the journey." The 200
water colors were painted for Walters from the rough sketches
made on the spot. Miller kept a notebook on his journey, but
this notebook has not been found. Another set of notes and
sketches he called "Rough Draughts for Notes to Indian
Sketches" was proven by DeVoto to have been written after
Miller returned. However, Ross maintains that for the most
part the Miller paintings are based on the artist's own
observations and the lost notes made on the trip west. Ross
says (Miller) "seems in almost all important instances to
have remained faithful in these duplicates to his original
notations . . ." Ross explains that the exceptions are that
the more recent paintings show the Indians as being more
noble.


I think that to continue to sell paintings of the West,
Miller had to keep them authentic. Just imagine how his
reputation would have been ruined if he painted something
that was refuted by some mountain man who had been there
also. Ross does admit that there has been a lot of
historical interest in the original sketches made in the
West, which "may show slight details which were omitted in
his studio versions."


I have now dismissed my reservations about the accuracy of
the paintings as being unduly skeptical. Historians must use
the best information available at their time. In my opinion,
Alfred Jacob Miller's paintings rank at the top of what is
available. Miller was being paid to document the west, a
duty he relished and took very seriously. The proverbial
worth of a picture is confirmed in his paintings.


I have made the following observations, which are concluded
with some true mountain man words of wisdom. The words
within quotation marks are Miller's.


Headgear - Many of the trappers in the camps were painted
with no headgear. But the trappers that were hunting or
traveling had headgear without exception. The hats are of
many descriptions. One common characteristic of the hats is
that they have a shallow crown. The crowns were either domed
or flat on top. Many of the hat blanks that are now commercially
available have a deep crown needed for cowboy-style hats.
The brims take all forms including bell-flared, upturned brims,
and hillbilly-style floppy brims that droop downward. The brim
of a felt hat exposed to repeated rains and worn until dried will tend
to droop like this. One clearly-drawn hat had a small curled
brim on the sides, with an upward curve in the back and a
flatter brim in the front with the brim longer in the back
than the front.


At least eight drawings had a type of headgear that I have
not seen at rendezvous. Miller says "The hunters form for
themselves a peculiar kind of a cap: -it has two ears with a
flap reaching to the shoulders." The cap is to disguise the
hunter as a wolf so he can more easily approach the buffalos.
The cap resembles an inverted square-bottom bag with one side
removed. The back corners resemble a set of ears. Some of
these appear to be made of short-hair fur, while others could
have been made of leather or maybe blanket cloth.


Several trappers have caps made of fur and typically
ornamented heavily with feathers. However, none of the caps
were of the fur type that has the animals head visible.


Ornamentation of the hats is primarily feathers and plumes
held in place with typically thin hat bands. Some hats had
only hat bands and some hats had no hat bands or
ornamentation of any kind. Two hats had a clay pipe stuck
under the hat band. "He (Pierre) wears in his hat by way of
ornament two turkey feathers, a fox-tail-brush, and his dear
darling pipe, . . ."


Cook Gear - The use of tripods made of sapling poles was
almost universal for hanging a pot over the campfire. Only
one drawing had some vertical sticks to the side of a fire to
cook some snakes. Large kettles or tin pots are hung over
many fires. An iron camp pot with three legs and a bail was
prominent in one picture. Camp kettles with round bottoms
are clearly evident in three views, kettles with flat sides like
a tin pot are clearly evident in two scenes. Meat was being
impaled on an inclined wood spit stuck in the ground in
several pictures.


"The plate service of the table is of capital tin ware,
partout, and the etiquette rigid in some particulars; - for
instance, nothing in the shape of a fork must be used." . . .
"The usual mode of sitting is to sit cross-legged like a
Turk."


Shirts and Pants - The shirts had long tails. The edge of
the shirts hung to typically a few inches above the knees.
In the color paintings I viewed, the cloth shirts were red or
blue. Some of the other shirts were white or natural with
widely-spaced narrow dark stripes. Leather shirts and
leather jackets were common. The leather as well as cloth
shirts had an abundance of fringes.


Beards - Most of the trappers had no beards. Of the others,
goatees, chin beards, and mustaches were common. There were
a few instances of cheek beards. The beards tend to be short
and not bushy. The one exception is of a trapper that had
been found starving with no ammunition.


Wagons - Miller drew many wagons and carts. Some pictures of
caravans show more than 15 wagons. The wagons were two-wheel
charettes and four-wheel wagons. Most of the carts had a
cover fashioned on hoops like a covered wagon.


Lodging - In several drawings the Indian lodges had their
door flaps folded open and propped open with sticks. "In the
background is a lodge thrown open, -this is done on a fine
day to admit the sun and give it an airing, . . " Many lodges
had their edges raised a couple of feet for ventilation.
Several pictures had wedge tents. The wedge tents had
internal poles and several panels. The wedge tents appeared
to be 6 or 7 feet long. One picture has what might be
interpreted to be a pyramid tent. It may be a cone-shaped
improvision but no poles stick through the apex. That
drawing shows what might be a flap cover for the entrance.
In several instances the Indians had blankets draped
horizontally on some tree limbs. The blanket cloth had
widely spaced narrow dark stripes.


Foo-foraw - Of all the trappers portrayed in the paintings,
maybe three had a hint of what might be interpreted to be
beads. In contrast, the Indians tend to be profusely
decorated with beads and bear claws. The bear claws are worn
with the points towards the body. All seven of the
references to beads in the text are about the Indians having
beads. Fringes were abundant. In one drawing the trapper
had what appeared to be brass buttons on the fringes of his
leather pants.


"Over his left shoulder and under his right arm hang his
buffalo powder horn, a bullet pouch in which he carries
balls, flint, and steel, with other knick-knacks."


"Bound round his waist is a belt, in which is stuck his knife
in a sheath of Buffalo hide, made fast to the belt by a chain
or guard of some kind, and on his breast a pipe holder,
usually a gage d'amour in the shape of a heart, worked in
porcupine quills by some dusky charmer."


Footwear - From what I could tell, all the trappers had
moccasins. "Everybody here wears them in preference to either
boot or shoe - they are verily the most comfortable covering
for the feet that can be fashioned." In some, they appeared
to have a seam between the top and sole on the top of the
foot, but some distance from the edge of the foot. That seam
sometimes had short fringes attached. Two trappers had spurs
with one spike (no rowel).


Indian Bows - "The bow . . . is remarkable; it is made of
Elk-horn with sinew strongly cemented on the outer-side. Now
if an Elk-horn was carried to the smartest Yankee we have,
with a request to make a bow of it, the probability is, that
for once, he would find it not convenient to attempt it."
"With an Elk-horn bow, they sometimes drive an arrow
completely through a Buffalo, its propelling power being
greater than that of the Yew Bow."


Drinking Water - "The time is near sunset, -squads are
leaving the main band, and rushing for the water, -thirst is
overpowering, and human nature can stand it no longer; -there
is a general stampede among the horseman; -the team drivers
being compelled to remain, headed by our Captain, who would
not move a jot from his usual walk, although he had been
smoking for the last 3 hours to relieve this inexorable
craving;. . . The question may be asked, why we did not take
water along with us? The answer is, that it would have been
an innovation on established custom. Nobody did any such
thing, -it was looked on as effeminate, to say nothing of the
ridicule and rough jests with which the reformer would be
pelted.


Poncho - "It is 'raining cats and dogs,' whilst the wind is
of the hurricane order, . . .Some of the men . . . are
enveloped in ponchos; -we have found these coverings the most
effectual of all in such unpropitious seasons, -they are
simply made from a Mackinaw blanket, a straight incision is
made in the centre to the length of about 14 inches, through
this you thrust your head and behold your poncho falling as
gracefully as a Roman Toga all round you.


Absent - Many things commonly seen at modern rendezvous that
were noticeably absent in the Miller paintings include wooden
boxes (some bundles were present), calico patterns (may have
been too difficult to draw), fire cross irons, bandanas, wall
tents, marquee tents, coffee pots, dutch ovens, frying pans,
and canteens.


Ultimate truth - "Look ye hyar now! I've raised the ha'r of
more than one Comanche, and hunted and trapped a heap, Waugh!
from Red River way up among the Britishers to Heely (Gila) in
the Spanish Country, and from old Mis- sou-rye to the sea of
Californey; b'ar and beaver sign are as plain to me as
Chimney Rock on Platte, but darn my old heart if this child
ever could shine in making out the sign lodged in a woman's
breast."


Contentment - "One night while a violent storm was raging and
the rain was pouring with a Niagara sluice, . . . was a man
sitting . . . with his hands over the expiring ashes. . . the
rain streaming from his nose & prominent chin, & his hunting
shirt hanging about him in a flabby and soaking embrace; -
spite of such a situation which was anything but cheering, he
was rapping out at the top of his voice a ditty, the chorus
or refrain of which was, & which he gave with particular
emphasis;-


How happy am I!
Oh, why are not all
Contented like me?




Glenn Darilek




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Paintings
Date: 19 Sep 2003 01:41:55 +0000

This last week, I made another trip to the Denver Art Museum.
They have on display three or four Millers, and I have seen about 8
different ones through the years there. A very unquie one that
was uprecently, and I think Tom Roberts saw it when out here,
was a pencil and water color wash that came from his sketch book.
    I think that it was these simple drawings that he based the
works done in the studio on. Catlin and Bodmer did finished works
while in the west. I don't think alot of Miller's were made here.
So, if you are ever in the area, the seventh floor of the museum
has some good pieces to excite you. Also the Building just next to
it, the Denver Main library usually has a few very nice works there,
including a few Millers!
                           mike.
> Another art gallery that has Miller's paintings is the Walters Gallery
> in Baltimore.

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From: "Angela Gottfred" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A J MILLER PAINTING
Date: 18 Sep 2003 23:04:42 -0600

>Anyone know of locations where Miller  paintings can be viewed and
which
paintings.<...> Or other Artists?
> Peter Rindisbacher  1806-1834

Rindisbacher's work is in the Amon Carter Museum and Calgary's Glenbow
Museum. You will have to make arrangements to view the many Rindisbacher
sketches in the Glenbow's collection (they're not on display, usually),
but it shouldn't be too difficult. To try to find the other artists on
your list, try http://www.artcyclopedia.com/ --it is very good, and
mostly up to date.

Your very humble & most obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred



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From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Test
Date: 20 Sep 2003 18:39:24 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I have had to redo a whole bunch of stuff on my puter and jus checking =
to see if I can still send/recieve

Wynn

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have had to redo a whole bunch of =
stuff on my=20
puter and jus checking to see if I can still send/recieve</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Jason Chasse" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test
Date: 20 Sep 2003 20:48:48 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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yup
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn Ormond=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 8:39 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Test


  I have had to redo a whole bunch of stuff on my puter and jus checking =
to see if I can still send/recieve
  =20
  Wynn


------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C37FB8.978212E0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>yup</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" title=[e-mail]>Wynn =
Ormond</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 20, =
2003 8:39=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Test</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have had to redo a whole bunch of =
stuff on my=20
  puter and jus checking to see if I can still send/recieve</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: 2003 Fur Trade Symposium
Date: 20 Sep 2003 21:49:45 -0600 (MDT)

Dear List,
   As I write this the 2003 Fur Trade Symposium is probably just now
winding down in Fort Benton and everyone is enjoying a drink or two in
the conference room. I left before the banquet to come home.
   As always it was an incredible Symposium in an incredibly rich fur
trade area! The talks were all wonderful and the bus tour of the many
fur trade forts in the area was outstanding!
   So many fur trade historians, interpreters, experts, and just plain fur
trade era fans not to mention lots of friends, in one spot! IÆm sorry
everyone on the list could not be there to enjoy the wonderful time and
the beautiful weather and scenery.
   The folks in Fort Benton who threw this one did a great job!
   The 2006 symposium is tentatively planned to take place in Chadron,
Nebraska with a tour of the Museum of the Fur Trade. Start planning to
attend it right now. You will not be disappointed!
          See you in Nebraska in 2006!
                       Beaverboy


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From: "don secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test
Date: 21 Sep 2003 18:41:35 +0000

Hear ya loud and clear! Keep 'em comin' Wynn.
Don


>From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Test
>Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:39:24 -0600
>
>I have had to redo a whole bunch of stuff on my puter and jus checking to
>see if I can still send/recieve
>
>Wynn

_________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
Date: 21 Sep 2003 13:39:21 -0600 (MDT)

Sean,
   I know the weather plays a part in bugling but isn't all the rutting
and such behavior still mainly dictated by the daylight hours?
   What do you think?
      bb



> Phewww I thought you were gonna say "you had a son now you need a wife."
> Now
> that would be a problem!!!!  At least the weather has the elk bugling!!!
>
>
>>From: [e-mail]
>>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>>To: [e-mail]
>>Subject: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
>>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT)
>>
>>     It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches of
>>snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
>>Thank God.
>>     I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
>>firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That was
>>a nice sight.
>>     Fall has come to the Rockies.
>>              bb
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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> Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage.
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>
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From: "Sean Boushie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
Date: 21 Sep 2003 19:55:28 +0000

Yes it is, but generally if its too hot they just ain't into it. Cool
weather gives a boost I generally find. Just got back yesterday, had one
screaming less than 100 yds from camp all night long. Do you think I could
find that fool come sunup? He just wanted to keep me awake so I couldn't
shoot straight!


>From: [e-mail]
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
>Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:39:21 -0600 (MDT)
>
>Sean,
>    I know the weather plays a part in bugling but isn't all the rutting
>and such behavior still mainly dictated by the daylight hours?
>    What do you think?
>       bb
>
>
>
> > Phewww I thought you were gonna say "you had a son now you need a wife."
> > Now
> > that would be a problem!!!!  At least the weather has the elk bugling!!!
> >
> >
> >>From: [e-mail]
> >>Reply-To: [e-mail]
> >>To: [e-mail]
> >>Subject: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
> >>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT)
> >>
> >>     It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches
>of
> >>snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
> >>Thank God.
> >>     I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
> >>firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That was
> >>a nice sight.
> >>     Fall has come to the Rockies.
> >>              bb
> >>
> >>
> >>----------------------
> >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage.
> > http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
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> >
>
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
Date: 21 Sep 2003 16:17:36 -0600 (MDT)

I've only bow hunted bugling elk a few times but know what you mean. They
bugle all night sometimes then must be too tired during the daytime to
make a peep. It is pretty intense sometimes!
      bb



> Yes it is, but generally if its too hot they just ain't into it. Cool
> weather gives a boost I generally find. Just got back yesterday, had one
> screaming less than 100 yds from camp all night long. Do you think I could
> find that fool come sunup? He just wanted to keep me awake so I couldn't
> shoot straight!
>
>
>>From: [e-mail]
>>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>>To: [e-mail]
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
>>Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:39:21 -0600 (MDT)
>>
>>Sean,
>>    I know the weather plays a part in bugling but isn't all the rutting
>>and such behavior still mainly dictated by the daylight hours?
>>    What do you think?
>>       bb
>>
>>
>>
>> > Phewww I thought you were gonna say "you had a son now you need a
>> wife."
>> > Now
>> > that would be a problem!!!!  At least the weather has the elk
>> bugling!!!
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: [e-mail]
>> >>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>> >>To: [e-mail]
>> >>Subject: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
>> >>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT)
>> >>
>> >>     It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches
>>of
>> >>snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
>> >>Thank God.
>> >>     I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
>> >>firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That was
>> >>a nice sight.
>> >>     Fall has come to the Rockies.
>> >>              bb
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>----------------------
>> >>hist_text list info:
>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage.
>> > http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------
>> > hist_text list info:
>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Share your photos without swamping your Inbox.  Get Hotmail Extra Storage
> today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es
>
>
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>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
Date: 21 Sep 2003 22:16:02 EDT


--part1_1d7.10cef249.2c9fb562_boundary
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It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups,
tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the brothers
in the AMM, did some research for me while he has been healing up and this is
what he came up with.
       In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in 1954, there
is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader working out of Santa
Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to 1840.  He stated that the
Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of bent wood or mortisized wood [these
are the solid, carved wood stirrups] which are fancifully carved and over
which are placed tapaderos that form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the
rider.
       In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante Fe and
St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in 1822 wagons
started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe Trail.  Part of this
trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being brought back to St Louis.  The
term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these saddles was due to where the traders
picked them up but not necessarily to the saddle's origin because they came also
from California, Texas and California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood
stirrups were starting to be used on some Spanish saddles.
        In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to
the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he proposed to
make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that forms a skirt and also
protects the underseat of the saddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft
leather and padded.
       I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty notes so
they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and dates of what was
quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these books you can look them
up for yourself.  They do suggest the early use of bent wood for stirrups,
the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or underseats during the years of the fur
trade on Spanish type saddles. And we've already determined that Spanish
saddles were used during the fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are
shown in the artwork of the time period does not take away from the fact they
were being used on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their
use in the Rocky Mountains is another question.
see ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>It was asked a while back=
 for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, and some question o=
n the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the brothers in the AMM, did some re=
search for me while he has been healing up and this is what he came up with.
<BR>       In the book Commerce of the Prairie=
 which was published in 1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an=
 American trader working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years=
 1831 to 1840.  He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that we=
re made of bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood st=
irrups] which are fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that=
 form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.
<BR>       In They Saddled the West, they stat=
e that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack tra=
ins of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over what is now known a=
s the Sante Fe Trail.  Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish s=
addles being brought back to St Louis.  The term Sante Fe or Spanish pu=
t on these saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not neces=
sarily to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas=20=
and California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting=20=
to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
<BR>        In Man Made Mobile, there is=20=
a letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the quartermaster of the army about=20=
the dragoon saddles that he proposed to make. In this letter he talks about=20=
making a mochia that forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the sa=
ddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
<BR>       I took these quotes over the phone=20=
while I took some hasty notes so they are not word for word perfect but they=
 show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of=
 you have these books you can look them up for yourself.  They do sugge=
st the early use of bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground=
 seats or underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddl=
es. And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the f=
ur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork of th=
e time period does not take away from the fact they were being used on Spani=
sh type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in the Rocky Mo=
untains is another question.=20
<BR>see ya on the trail
<BR>Crazy Cyot
<BR>  </FONT></HTML>

--part1_1d7.10cef249.2c9fb562_boundary--

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dale Nelson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
Date: 22 Sep 2003 07:23:04 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Great work.  I researched this stuff so many years ago I'd forgotten =
lots of the stuff I'd read, or where I'd read it.  You mention "Commerce =
of the Prairies" and the name rang familiar.  Checking my book shelf I =
found a paper back copy that I don't know how long it's been there, but =
it's not full of bookmarks to refer back to, which means I've never read =
it.  Now I have a book to read.  Thanks again.
Dale Nelson
Roseburg,  OR
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: [e-mail]=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 7:16 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


  It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, =
tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of =
the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has been =
healing up and this is what he came up with.=20
        In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in 1954, =
there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader working =
out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to 1840.  He =
stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of bent wood =
or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] which are =
fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that form a kind =
of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
        In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante Fe =
and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in 1822 =
wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe Trail.  =
Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being brought =
back to St Louis.  The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these saddles was =
due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily to the =
saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and =
California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting =
to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
         In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in =
1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he =
proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that =
forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said =
underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
        I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty notes =
so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and dates =
of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these books =
you can look them up for yourself.  They do suggest the early use of =
bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or =
underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. =
And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the =
fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork =
of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used =
on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20
  see ya on the trail=20
  Crazy Cyot=20

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C380DA.5D080B60
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Great work.  I researched this =
stuff so many=20
years ago I'd forgotten lots of the stuff I'd read, or where I'd read =
it. =20
You mention "Commerce of the Prairies" and the name rang=20
familiar.  Checking my book shelf I found a paper back copy =
that I=20
don't know how long it's been there, but it's not full of bookmarks to =
refer=20
back to, which means I've never read it.  Now I have a book to =
read. =20
Thanks again.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dale Nelson</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roseburg,  OR</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 21, =
2003 7:16=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Spanish=20
Saddles</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>It was =
asked a while=20
  back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, and some =
question=20
  on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the brothers in the AMM, did =
some=20
  research for me while he has been healing up and this is what he came =
up with.=20
  <BR>      In the book Commerce of the =
Prairie=20
  which was published in 1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who =
was an=20
  American trader working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the =
years=20
  1831 to 1840.  He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups =
that were=20
  made of bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood =

  stirrups] which are fancifully carved and over which are placed =
tapaderos that=20
  form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
  <BR>      In They Saddled the West, they =
state=20
  that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack =
trains=20
  of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over what is now known =
as the=20
  Sante Fe Trail.  Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish =
saddles=20
  being brought back to St Louis.  The term Sante Fe or Spanish put =
on=20
  these saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not =
necessarily=20
  to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas =
and=20
  California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were =
starting to be=20
  used on some Spanish saddles. =
<BR>       In=20
  Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the=20
  quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he proposed =
to make.=20
  In this letter he talks about making a mochia that forms a skirt and =
also=20
  protects the underseat of the saddle. Said underseat was made out of a =
soft=20
  leather and padded. <BR>      I took =
these=20
  quotes over the phone while I took some hasty notes so they are not =
word for=20
  word perfect but they show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me =
from=20
  Yarrow. So if some of you have these books you can look them up for =
yourself.=20
   They do suggest the early use of bent wood for stirrups, the use =
of=20
  tapaderos, and ground seats or underseats during the years of the fur =
trade on=20
  Spanish type saddles. And we've already determined that Spanish =
saddles were=20
  used during the fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are =
shown in=20
  the artwork of the time period does not take away from the fact they =
were=20
  being used on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was =
their=20
  use in the Rocky Mountains is another question. <BR>see ya on the =
trail=20
  <BR>Crazy Cyot <BR> </FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C380DA.5D080B60--



----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
Date: 22 Sep 2003 10:28:59 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C380F4.557FF2D0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The author of Commerce of the Prairie, Josiah Gregg was a medical doctor =
who made many trading trips to Santa Fe, etc.  He was also a bit of a =
smuggler.  One of his tricks was to remove canvas wagon covers and store =
them conspicuously in the wagons (wagon canvas were not taxable goods) =
and then fashion wagon covers of more expensive (taxable) textiles and =
drive the taxable textiles right past the inspectors, making Dr.Gregg =
sort of an earlier version of Joseph Kennedy.
This is a very interesting book and I have read my copy more than once.  =
Let us know how you like it.
Lanney Ratcliff
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Dale Nelson=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 9:23 AM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


  Great work.  I researched this stuff so many years ago I'd forgotten =
lots of the stuff I'd read, or where I'd read it.  You mention "Commerce =
of the Prairies" and the name rang familiar.  Checking my book shelf I =
found a paper back copy that I don't know how long it's been there, but =
it's not full of bookmarks to refer back to, which means I've never read =
it.  Now I have a book to read.  Thanks again.
  Dale Nelson
  Roseburg,  OR
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: [e-mail]=20
    To: [e-mail]=20
    Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 7:16 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


    It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood =
stirrups, tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, =
one of the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has =
been healing up and this is what he came up with.=20
          In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in =
1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader =
working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to =
1840.  He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of =
bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] =
which are fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that =
form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
          In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante =
Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in =
1822 wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe =
Trail.  Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being =
brought back to St Louis.  The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these =
saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily =
to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and =
California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting =
to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
           In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in =
1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he =
proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that =
forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said =
underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
          I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty =
notes so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and =
dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these =
books you can look them up for yourself.  They do suggest the early use =
of bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or =
underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. =
And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the =
fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork =
of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used =
on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20
    see ya on the trail=20
    Crazy Cyot=20

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C380F4.557FF2D0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>The author of Commerce of =
the Prairie,=20
Josiah Gregg was a medical doctor who made many trading trips to Santa =
Fe,=20
etc.  He was also a bit of a smuggler.  One of his tricks =
was to=20
remove canvas wagon covers and store them conspicuously in the wagons =
(wagon=20
canvas were not taxable goods) and then fashion wagon covers of =
more=20
expensive (taxable) textiles and drive the taxable textiles right =
past the=20
inspectors, making Dr.Gregg sort of an earlier version of Joseph=20
Kennedy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>This is a very interesting =
book and I=20
have read my copy more than once.  Let us know how you like=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney =
Ratcliff</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Dale=20
  Nelson</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 9:23=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
  Saddles</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Great work.  I researched this =
stuff so many=20
  years ago I'd forgotten lots of the stuff I'd read, or where I'd read=20
  it.  You mention "Commerce of the Prairies" and the name =
rang=20
  familiar.  Checking my book shelf I found a paper back copy =
that I=20
  don't know how long it's been there, but it's not full of bookmarks to =
refer=20
  back to, which means I've never read it.  Now I have a book to=20
  read.  Thanks again.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dale Nelson</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roseburg,  OR</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=[e-mail]=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
    title=[e-mail]=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 21, =
2003 7:16=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Spanish=20
    Saddles</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>It was =
asked a while=20
    back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, and =
some=20
    question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the brothers in =
the AMM,=20
    did some research for me while he has been healing up and this is =
what he=20
    came up with. <BR>      In the book =
Commerce=20
    of the Prairie which was published in 1954, there is a quote from a =
Josiah=20
    Greg who was an American trader working out of Santa Fe and =
Chijuajua Mexico=20
    from the years 1831 to 1840.  He stated that the Spanish =
saddles had=20
    stirrups that were made of bent wood or mortisized wood [these are =
the=20
    solid, carved wood stirrups] which are fancifully carved and over =
which are=20
    placed tapaderos that form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the =
rider.=20
    <BR>      In They Saddled the West, =
they state=20
    that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with =
pack=20
    trains of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over what is =
now=20
    known as the Sante Fe Trail.  Part of this trade was the Sante =
Fe or=20
    Spanish saddles being brought back to St Louis.  The term Sante =
Fe or=20
    Spanish put on these saddles was due to where the traders picked =
them up but=20
    not necessarily to the saddle's origin because they came also from=20
    California, Texas and California. It also stated that by 1790 =
bentwood=20
    stirrups were starting to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
    <BR>       In Man Made Mobile, =
there is a=20
    letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the quartermaster of the army =
about=20
    the dragoon saddles that he proposed to make. In this letter he =
talks about=20
    making a mochia that forms a skirt and also protects the underseat =
of the=20
    saddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
    <BR>      I took these quotes over the =
phone=20
    while I took some hasty notes so they are not word for word perfect =
but they=20
    show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if =
some of=20
    you have these books you can look them up for yourself.  They =
do=20
    suggest the early use of bent wood for stirrups, the use of =
tapaderos, and=20
    ground seats or underseats during the years of the fur trade on =
Spanish type=20
    saddles. And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used =
during=20
    the fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the =
artwork=20
    of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being =
used on=20
    Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the=20
    Rocky Mountains is another question. <BR>see ya on the trail =
<BR>Crazy Cyot=20
    <BR> </FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C380F4.557FF2D0--



----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
Date: 22 Sep 2003 19:29:03 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3813F.C7EE1EA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have to admit this is much better documentation than I have ever been =
able to find for this stuff.  Tom B suggested the Commerce of the =
Praire.  I thought Dean's Site searched it with its search engine but I =
found out that it is actually on the University of Kansas site (Deans =
link is bad but it is still available on line)

I still hope that the future saddlery for period horseman will show more =
diversity.  While everyone has their books open, look at the saddle tree =
pictured in the JB Sickles advertisement in Man Made Mobile (1842).  =
Tell me if that is an English tree with a horn added or if it is =
something different altogether.  And do you think it would work.

I am going to head out for a quick ride before dark.  Hope my back don't =
let me know that it was a stupid idea.

Wynn

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: [e-mail]=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:16 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


  It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, =
tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of =
the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has been =
healing up and this is what he came up with.=20
        In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in 1954, =
there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader working =
out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to 1840.  He =
stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of bent wood =
or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] which are =
fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that form a kind =
of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
        In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante Fe =
and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in 1822 =
wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe Trail.  =
Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being brought =
back to St Louis.  The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these saddles was =
due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily to the =
saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and =
California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting =
to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
         In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in =
1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he =
proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that =
forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said =
underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
        I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty notes =
so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and dates =
of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these books =
you can look them up for yourself.  They do suggest the early use of =
bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or =
underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. =
And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the =
fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork =
of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used =
on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20
  see ya on the trail=20
  Crazy Cyot=20

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3813F.C7EE1EA0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have to admit this is much better =
documentation=20
than I have ever been able to find for this stuff.  Tom B suggested =
the=20
Commerce of the Praire.  I thought Dean's Site searched it with its =
search=20
engine but I found out that it is actually on the University of Kansas =
site=20
(Deans link is bad but it is still available on line)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I still hope that the future saddlery =
for period=20
horseman will show more diversity.  While everyone has their books=20
open, look at the saddle tree pictured in the JB Sickles =
advertisement in=20
Man Made Mobile (1842).  Tell me if that is an English tree with a =
horn=20
added or if it is something different altogether.  And do you think =
it=20
would work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to head out for a quick ride =
before=20
dark.  Hope my back don't let me know that it was a stupid=20
idea.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 21, =
2003 8:16=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Spanish=20
Saddles</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>It was =
asked a while=20
  back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, and some =
question=20
  on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the brothers in the AMM, did =
some=20
  research for me while he has been healing up and this is what he came =
up with.=20
  <BR>      In the book Commerce of the =
Prairie=20
  which was published in 1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who =
was an=20
  American trader working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the =
years=20
  1831 to 1840.  He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups =
that were=20
  made of bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood =

  stirrups] which are fancifully carved and over which are placed =
tapaderos that=20
  form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
  <BR>      In They Saddled the West, they =
state=20
  that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack =
trains=20
  of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over what is now known =
as the=20
  Sante Fe Trail.  Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish =
saddles=20
  being brought back to St Louis.  The term Sante Fe or Spanish put =
on=20
  these saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not =
necessarily=20
  to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas =
and=20
  California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were =
starting to be=20
  used on some Spanish saddles. =
<BR>       In=20
  Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the=20
  quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he proposed =
to make.=20
  In this letter he talks about making a mochia that forms a skirt and =
also=20
  protects the underseat of the saddle. Said underseat was made out of a =
soft=20
  leather and padded. <BR>      I took =
these=20
  quotes over the phone while I took some hasty notes so they are not =
word for=20
  word perfect but they show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me =
from=20
  Yarrow. So if some of you have these books you can look them up for =
yourself.=20
   They do suggest the early use of bent wood for stirrups, the use =
of=20
  tapaderos, and ground seats or underseats during the years of the fur =
trade on=20
  Spanish type saddles. And we've already determined that Spanish =
saddles were=20
  used during the fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are =
shown in=20
  the artwork of the time period does not take away from the fact they =
were=20
  being used on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was =
their=20
  use in the Rocky Mountains is another question. <BR>see ya on the =
trail=20
  <BR>Crazy Cyot <BR> </FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3813F.C7EE1EA0--


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:25:31 -0500
Date: 22 Sep 2003 19:40:11 -0600

test...no reply needed.....unless you just can't help yourself.


Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays



----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
Date: 22 Sep 2003 20:31:23 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C38148.7D74F070
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Some of the best ideas are stupid.  Go ride, let your back take care of =
itself !!
LR
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn Ormond=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:29 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


  I have to admit this is much better documentation than I have ever =
been able to find for this stuff.  Tom B suggested the Commerce of the =
Praire.  I thought Dean's Site searched it with its search engine but I =
found out that it is actually on the University of Kansas site (Deans =
link is bad but it is still available on line)

  I still hope that the future saddlery for period horseman will show =
more diversity.  While everyone has their books open, look at the saddle =
tree pictured in the JB Sickles advertisement in Man Made Mobile (1842). =
 Tell me if that is an English tree with a horn added or if it is =
something different altogether.  And do you think it would work.

  I am going to head out for a quick ride before dark.  Hope my back =
don't let me know that it was a stupid idea.

  Wynn

    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: [e-mail]=20
    To: [e-mail]=20
    Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:16 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


    It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood =
stirrups, tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, =
one of the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has =
been healing up and this is what he came up with.=20
          In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in =
1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader =
working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to =
1840.  He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of =
bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] =
which are fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that =
form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
          In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante =
Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in =
1822 wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe =
Trail.  Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being =
brought back to St Louis.  The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these =
saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily =
to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and =
California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting =
to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
           In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in =
1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he =
proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that =
forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said =
underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
          I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty =
notes so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and =
dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these =
books you can look them up for yourself.  They do suggest the early use =
of bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or =
underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. =
And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the =
fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork =
of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used =
on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20
    see ya on the trail=20
    Crazy Cyot=20

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C38148.7D74F070
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Some of the best ideas are=20
stupid.  Go ride, let your back take care of itself !!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>LR</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Wynn =
Ormond</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 8:29=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
  Saddles</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have to admit this is much better =
documentation=20
  than I have ever been able to find for this stuff.  Tom B =
suggested the=20
  Commerce of the Praire.  I thought Dean's Site searched it with =
its=20
  search engine but I found out that it is actually on the University of =
Kansas=20
  site (Deans link is bad but it is still available on =
line)</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I still hope that the future saddlery =
for period=20
  horseman will show more diversity.  While everyone has their =
books=20
  open, look at the saddle tree pictured in the JB Sickles =
advertisement in=20
  Man Made Mobile (1842).  Tell me if that is an English tree with =
a horn=20
  added or if it is something different altogether.  And do you =
think it=20
  would work.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to head out for a quick =
ride before=20
  dark.  Hope my back don't let me know that it was a stupid=20
  idea.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=[e-mail]=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
    title=[e-mail]=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 21, =
2003 8:16=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Spanish=20
    Saddles</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>It was =
asked a while=20
    back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, and =
some=20
    question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the brothers in =
the AMM,=20
    did some research for me while he has been healing up and this is =
what he=20
    came up with. <BR>      In the book =
Commerce=20
    of the Prairie which was published in 1954, there is a quote from a =
Josiah=20
    Greg who was an American trader working out of Santa Fe and =
Chijuajua Mexico=20
    from the years 1831 to 1840.  He stated that the Spanish =
saddles had=20
    stirrups that were made of bent wood or mortisized wood [these are =
the=20
    solid, carved wood stirrups] which are fancifully carved and over =
which are=20
    placed tapaderos that form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the =
rider.=20
    <BR>      In They Saddled the West, =
they state=20
    that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with =
pack=20
    trains of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over what is =
now=20
    known as the Sante Fe Trail.  Part of this trade was the Sante =
Fe or=20
    Spanish saddles being brought back to St Louis.  The term Sante =
Fe or=20
    Spanish put on these saddles was due to where the traders picked =
them up but=20
    not necessarily to the saddle's origin because they came also from=20
    California, Texas and California. It also stated that by 1790 =
bentwood=20
    stirrups were starting to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
    <BR>       In Man Made Mobile, =
there is a=20
    letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the quartermaster of the army =
about=20
    the dragoon saddles that he proposed to make. In this letter he =
talks about=20
    making a mochia that forms a skirt and also protects the underseat =
of the=20
    saddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
    <BR>      I took these quotes over the =
phone=20
    while I took some hasty notes so they are not word for word perfect =
but they=20
    show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if =
some of=20
    you have these books you can look them up for yourself.  They =
do=20
    suggest the early use of bent wood for stirrups, the use of =
tapaderos, and=20
    ground seats or underseats during the years of the fur trade on =
Spanish type=20
    saddles. And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used =
during=20
    the fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the =
artwork=20
    of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being =
used on=20
    Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the=20
    Rocky Mountains is another question. <BR>see ya on the trail =
<BR>Crazy Cyot=20
    <BR> </FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C38148.7D74F070--



----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
Date: 22 Sep 2003 21:15:05 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C3814E.982E28E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Lanney, its true that stupid aint always bad.  I am alive and well.  =
Relatively anyway.  I have one of those backs that if I get sloppy =
lifting things, like I did last Thursday, it is not very forgiving.  =
Because of it, I missed a chance to go sit at the feet of a great =
shooting guru and learn wonderous lessons.  Aint that right Allen?

Wynn

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Lanney Ratcliff=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:31 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


  Some of the best ideas are stupid.  Go ride, let your back take care =
of itself !!
  LR
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Wynn Ormond=20
    To: [e-mail]=20
    Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:29 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


    I have to admit this is much better documentation than I have ever =
been able to find for this stuff.  Tom B suggested the Commerce of the =
Praire.  I thought Dean's Site searched it with its search engine but I =
found out that it is actually on the University of Kansas site (Deans =
link is bad but it is still available on line)

    I still hope that the future saddlery for period horseman will show =
more diversity.  While everyone has their books open, look at the saddle =
tree pictured in the JB Sickles advertisement in Man Made Mobile (1842). =
 Tell me if that is an English tree with a horn added or if it is =
something different altogether.  And do you think it would work.

    I am going to head out for a quick ride before dark.  Hope my back =
don't let me know that it was a stupid idea.

    Wynn

      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: [e-mail]=20
      To: [e-mail]=20
      Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:16 PM
      Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


      It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood =
stirrups, tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, =
one of the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has =
been healing up and this is what he came up with.=20
            In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in =
1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader =
working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to =
1840.  He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of =
bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] =
which are fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that =
form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
            In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between =
Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But =
in 1822 wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe =
Trail.  Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being =
brought back to St Louis.  The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these =
saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily =
to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and =
California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting =
to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
             In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote =
in 1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that =
he proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that =
forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said =
underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
            I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty =
notes so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and =
dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these =
books you can look them up for yourself.  They do suggest the early use =
of bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or =
underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. =
And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the =
fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork =
of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used =
on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20
      see ya on the trail=20
      Crazy Cyot=20

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C3814E.982E28E0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lanney, its true that stupid aint =
always bad. =20
I am alive and well.  Relatively anyway.  I have one of =
those=20
backs that if I get sloppy lifting things, like I did last Thursday, it =
is not=20
very forgiving.  Because of it, I missed a chance to go sit at the =
feet of=20
a great shooting guru and learn wonderous lessons.  Aint that right =

Allen?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Lanney Ratcliff</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 7:31=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
  Saddles</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Some of the best ideas =
are=20
  stupid.  Go ride, let your back take care of itself =
!!</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>LR</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Wynn =
Ormond</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
    title=[e-mail]=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 8:29=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
    Saddles</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have to admit this is much better =

    documentation than I have ever been able to find for this =
stuff.  Tom B=20
    suggested the Commerce of the Praire.  I thought Dean's Site =
searched=20
    it with its search engine but I found out that it is actually on the =

    University of Kansas site (Deans link is bad but it is still =
available on=20
    line)</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I still hope that the future =
saddlery for=20
    period horseman will show more diversity.  While everyone has =
their=20
    books open, look at the saddle tree pictured in the JB Sickles=20
    advertisement in Man Made Mobile (1842).  Tell me if that is an =
English=20
    tree with a horn added or if it is something different =
altogether.  And=20
    do you think it would work.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to head out for a quick =
ride before=20
    dark.  Hope my back don't let me know that it was a stupid=20
    idea.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      <A title=[e-mail]=20
      href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
      title=[e-mail]=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
      </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 21, =
2003 8:16=20
      PM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
      Saddles</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>It was =
asked a=20
      while back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, =
and=20
      some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the =
brothers in the=20
      AMM, did some research for me while he has been healing up and =
this is=20
      what he came up with. <BR>      In =
the book=20
      Commerce of the Prairie which was published in 1954, there is a =
quote from=20
      a Josiah Greg who was an American trader working out of Santa Fe =
and=20
      Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to 1840.  He stated that =
the=20
      Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of bent wood or =
mortisized=20
      wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] which are =
fancifully=20
      carved and over which are placed tapaderos that form a kind of =
boot to=20
      protect the foot of the rider. =
<BR>      In=20
      They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante Fe and =
St.=20
      Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in 1822 =
wagons=20
      started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe Trail.=20
       Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being =
brought=20
      back to St Louis.  The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these =
saddles=20
      was due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily to =
the=20
      saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and=20
      California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were =
starting to=20
      be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
      <BR>       In Man Made Mobile, =
there is=20
      a letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the quartermaster of the =
army=20
      about the dragoon saddles that he proposed to make. In this letter =
he=20
      talks about making a mochia that forms a skirt and also protects =
the=20
      underseat of the saddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft =
leather and=20
      padded. <BR>      I took these =
quotes over=20
      the phone while I took some hasty notes so they are not word for =
word=20
      perfect but they show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me =
from=20
      Yarrow. So if some of you have these books you can look them up =
for=20
      yourself.  They do suggest the early use of bent wood for =
stirrups,=20
      the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or underseats during the =
years of=20
      the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. And we've already =
determined that=20
      Spanish saddles were used during the fur trade by mountain men. =
Whether or=20
      not they are shown in the artwork of the time period does not take =
away=20
      from the fact they were being used on Spanish type saddles. Just =
how often=20
      and how common was their use in the Rocky Mountains is another =
question.=20
      <BR>see ya on the trail <BR>Crazy Cyot <BR> </FONT>=20
  </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C3814E.982E28E0--


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
Date: 22 Sep 2003 22:43:07 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3815A.E4A600B0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well, dang the luck.  Take care of yourself.=20
Lanney
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn Ormond=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 10:15 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


  Lanney, its true that stupid aint always bad.  I am alive and well.  =
Relatively anyway.  I have one of those backs that if I get sloppy =
lifting things, like I did last Thursday, it is not very forgiving.  =
Because of it, I missed a chance to go sit at the feet of a great =
shooting guru and learn wonderous lessons.  Aint that right Allen?

  Wynn

    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Lanney Ratcliff=20
    To: [e-mail]=20
    Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:31 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


    Some of the best ideas are stupid.  Go ride, let your back take care =
of itself !!
    LR
      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: Wynn Ormond=20
      To: [e-mail]=20
      Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:29 PM
      Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


      I have to admit this is much better documentation than I have ever =
been able to find for this stuff.  Tom B suggested the Commerce of the =
Praire.  I thought Dean's Site searched it with its search engine but I =
found out that it is actually on the University of Kansas site (Deans =
link is bad but it is still available on line)

      I still hope that the future saddlery for period horseman will =
show more diversity.  While everyone has their books open, look at the =
saddle tree pictured in the JB Sickles advertisement in Man Made Mobile =
(1842).  Tell me if that is an English tree with a horn added or if it =
is something different altogether.  And do you think it would work.

      I am going to head out for a quick ride before dark.  Hope my back =
don't let me know that it was a stupid idea.

      Wynn

        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: [e-mail]=20
        To: [e-mail]=20
        Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:16 PM
        Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles


        It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood =
stirrups, tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, =
one of the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has =
been healing up and this is what he came up with.=20
              In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in =
1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader =
working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to =
1840.  He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of =
bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] =
which are fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that =
form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
              In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between =
Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But =
in 1822 wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe =
Trail.  Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being =
brought back to St Louis.  The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these =
saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily =
to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and =
California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting =
to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
               In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote =
in 1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that =
he proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that =
forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said =
underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
              I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty =
notes so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and =
dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these =
books you can look them up for yourself.  They do suggest the early use =
of bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or =
underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. =
And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the =
fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork =
of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used =
on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20
        see ya on the trail=20
        Crazy Cyot=20

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3815A.E4A600B0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Well, dang the luck.  =
Take care of=20
yourself. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Wynn =
Ormond</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 10:15=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
  Saddles</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lanney, its true that stupid aint =
always=20
  bad.  I am alive and well.  Relatively anyway.  I =
have one=20
  of those backs that if I get sloppy lifting things, like I did last =
Thursday,=20
  it is not very forgiving.  Because of it, I missed a chance to go =
sit at=20
  the feet of a great shooting guru and learn wonderous lessons.  =
Aint that=20
  right Allen?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=[e-mail]=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Lanney Ratcliff</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
    title=[e-mail]=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 7:31=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
    Saddles</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Some of the best ideas =
are=20
    stupid.  Go ride, let your back take care of itself =
!!</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>LR</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Wynn =
Ormond</A>=20
      </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
      title=[e-mail]=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
      </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 8:29=20
      PM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
      Saddles</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
      face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have to admit this is much =
better=20
      documentation than I have ever been able to find for this =
stuff.  Tom=20
      B suggested the Commerce of the Praire.  I thought Dean's =
Site=20
      searched it with its search engine but I found out that it is =
actually on=20
      the University of Kansas site (Deans link is bad but it is still =
available=20
      on line)</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I still hope that the future =
saddlery for=20
      period horseman will show more diversity.  While everyone has =
their=20
      books open, look at the saddle tree pictured in the JB =
Sickles=20
      advertisement in Man Made Mobile (1842).  Tell me if that is =
an=20
      English tree with a horn added or if it is something different=20
      altogether.  And do you think it would work.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to head out for a =
quick ride=20
      before dark.  Hope my back don't let me know that it was a =
stupid=20
      idea.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV> </DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE=20
      style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
        <DIV=20
        style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
        <A title=[e-mail]=20
        href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
        title=[e-mail]=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September =
21, 2003=20
        8:16 PM</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
        Saddles</DIV>
        <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>It =
was asked a=20
        while back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, =
tapaderos, and=20
        some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the =
brothers in=20
        the AMM, did some research for me while he has been healing up =
and this=20
        is what he came up with. =
<BR>      In the=20
        book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in 1954, there =
is a=20
        quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader working out =
of Santa=20
        Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to 1840.  He =
stated=20
        that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of bent =
wood or=20
        mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] =
which are=20
        fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that form =
a kind=20
        of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
        <BR>      In They Saddled the =
West, they=20
        state that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very =
early with=20
        pack trains of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over =
what is=20
        now known as the Sante Fe Trail.  Part of this trade was =
the Sante=20
        Fe or Spanish saddles being brought back to St Louis.  The =
term=20
        Sante Fe or Spanish put on these saddles was due to where the =
traders=20
        picked them up but not necessarily to the saddle's origin =
because they=20
        came also from California, Texas and California. It also stated =
that by=20
        1790 bentwood stirrups were starting to be used on some Spanish =
saddles.=20
        <BR>       In Man Made =
Mobile, there=20
        is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the quartermaster of =
the army=20
        about the dragoon saddles that he proposed to make. In this =
letter he=20
        talks about making a mochia that forms a skirt and also protects =
the=20
        underseat of the saddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft =
leather=20
        and padded. <BR>      I took these =
quotes=20
        over the phone while I took some hasty notes so they are not =
word for=20
        word perfect but they show the gist and dates of what was quoted =
to me=20
        from Yarrow. So if some of you have these books you can look =
them up for=20
        yourself.  They do suggest the early use of bent wood for =
stirrups,=20
        the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or underseats during the =
years of=20
        the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. And we've already =
determined that=20
        Spanish saddles were used during the fur trade by mountain men. =
Whether=20
        or not they are shown in the artwork of the time period does not =
take=20
        away from the fact they were being used on Spanish type saddles. =
Just=20
        how often and how common was their use in the Rocky Mountains is =
another=20
        question. <BR>see ya on the trail <BR>Crazy Cyot =
<BR> </FONT>=20
        =
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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
Date: 23 Sep 2003 16:21:53 -0600

At 09:15 PM 9/22/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>Lanney, its true that stupid aint always bad.  I am alive and well.
Relatively anyway.  I have one of those backs that if I get sloppy lifting
things, like I did last Thursday, it is not very forgiving.  Because of it,
I missed a chance to go sit at the feet of a great shooting guru and learn
wonderous lessons.  Aint that right Allen?
>
>Wynn

Well, didn't see any guru show up, so we had to make do with what we
had.....a good time was had and some lead went downrange.

Missed ya!

Allen



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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 28 Sep 2003 21:20:13 -0500

I have seen occasional discussion about using high thread
count.....300-400..... sheets to make lightweight shelters.  Has anybody
actually done it and if so what was the result?  Untreated or if treated,
with what?  I know the theory, what I would like to hear is real experience
by real folks.  Thanks.


Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays



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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 28 Sep 2003 20:35:38 -0700

Hi lanney,    I bought some egyptian cotton sheets, hi thread count, but
not 400.  The egyptian cotton is supposed to be a long fiber cotton, so
stronger when woven.  I have dyed these 4 single flat sheets, with the
intent of sewing together.  I'll let you know when I have it done, and
tested.   Randy


> [Original Message]
> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: History List <[e-mail]>; AMM <[e-mail]>
> Date: 9/28/03 7:20:25 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
>
> I have seen occasional discussion about using high thread
> count.....300-400..... sheets to make lightweight shelters.  Has anybody
> actually done it and if so what was the result?  Untreated or if treated,
> with what?  I know the theory, what I would like to hear is real
experience
> by real folks.  Thanks.
>
>
> Lanney Ratcliff
> [e-mail]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Aux Aliments du Pays
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 28 Sep 2003 21:50:01 -0600 (MDT)

Lanney,
   We just floated the Upper Missouri and last night one of the guys set
up a simple bedsheet that he treated with iron oxide and linseed oil.
It looked good and seemed to work great. It didn't rain but with all
that oil in it, it should repel water just fine.
    bb



> I have seen occasional discussion about using high thread
> count.....300-400..... sheets to make lightweight shelters.  Has anybody
> actually done it and if so what was the result?  Untreated or if treated,
> with what?  I know the theory, what I would like to hear is real
> experience
> by real folks.  Thanks.
>
>
> Lanney Ratcliff
> [e-mail]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Aux Aliments du Pays
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 28 Sep 2003 21:50:01 -0600 (MDT)

Lanney,
   We just floated the Upper Missouri and last night one of the guys set
up a simple bedsheet that he treated with iron oxide and linseed oil.
It looked good and seemed to work great. It didn't rain but with all
that oil in it, it should repel water just fine.
    bb



> I have seen occasional discussion about using high thread
> count.....300-400..... sheets to make lightweight shelters.  Has anybody
> actually done it and if so what was the result?  Untreated or if treated,
> with what?  I know the theory, what I would like to hear is real
> experience
> by real folks.  Thanks.
>
>
> Lanney Ratcliff
> [e-mail]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Aux Aliments du Pays
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 28 Sep 2003 21:52:28 -0600

Hi Lanny,

I made a king size bed sheet into a tarp/shelter 2 years ago.  It was a 250
count Egyptian cotton sheet.  Treated it with Lindseed oil cut 2/3 with
paint thinner.  Through in a little iron oxide for color.  It's served very
well, and is very water resistant.  Biggest drawback is the thinner material
is more prone to tearing.

Doing it again, I'd sew in a hem all the way around for additional tear
resistance.

I figure I've got 1-2 more years in this tarp, and I used is alot.  Got the
overall idea from Jim Hannon, and it's been great.  Much more compact and
lighter than anything else I've messed with.

Allen in Fort Hall country.

At 09:20 PM 9/28/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>I have seen occasional discussion about using high thread
>count.....300-400..... sheets to make lightweight shelters.  Has anybody
>actually done it and if so what was the result?  Untreated or if treated,
>with what?  I know the theory, what I would like to hear is real experience
>by real folks.  Thanks.
>
>
>Lanney Ratcliff
>[e-mail]




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From: "JIM BRYAN" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 29 Sep 2003 09:22:31 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Lanney..

Remember Chairburner's experience with the bees-waxed sheet at =
Elizabeth's Creek some years ago? Didn't he move in with you? lol

Absalom=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Lanney Ratcliff=20
  To: History List ; AMM=20
  Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 9:20 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters


  I have seen occasional discussion about using high thread
  count.....300-400..... sheets to make lightweight shelters.  Has =
anybody
  actually done it and if so what was the result?  Untreated or if =
treated,
  with what?  I know the theory, what I would like to hear is real =
experience
  by real folks.  Thanks.


  Lanney Ratcliff
  [e-mail]
  ______________________________________________________________
  Aux Aliments du Pays



  ----------------------
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type =
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1>
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DMailContainerBody=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 10px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
COLOR: #000000; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 15px; FONT-STYLE: =
normal; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; =
BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; TEXT-DECORATION: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: =
none"=20
leftMargin=3D0 topMargin=3D0 acc_role=3D"text" CanvasTabStop=3D"true"=20
name=3D"Compose message area"><?xml:namespace prefix=3D"v" =
/><?xml:namespace prefix=3D"o" />
<DIV>
<DIV>Lanney..</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Remember Chairburner's experience with the bees-waxed sheet at =
Elizabeth's=20
Creek some years ago? Didn't he move in with you? lol</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Absalom </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Lanney Ratcliff</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">History List</A> ; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">AMM</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 28, =
2003 9:20=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Hi Thread =
Count=20
  Sheet Shelters</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>I have seen occasional discussion about using high=20
  thread<BR>count.....300-400..... sheets to make lightweight =
shelters. =20
  Has anybody<BR>actually done it and if so what was the result?  =
Untreated=20
  or if treated,<BR>with what?  I know the theory, what I would =
like to=20
  hear is real experience<BR>by real folks.  =
Thanks.<BR><BR><BR>Lanney=20
  Ratcliff<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=
<BR>______________________________________________________________<BR>Aux=
=20
  Aliments du Pays<BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text =
list info:=20
  <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></=
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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 29 Sep 2003 18:22:36 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I think those abominations were cheap-o sheets salvaged from some =
hospital......institutions not know for using luxury, high thread count =
sheets.  Larry still talks about that "shelter"......says it hardly even =
slowed down the rain, rather it turned it to a fine mist.
THAT I don't need.
Lanney
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JIM BRYAN=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 9:22 AM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters


  Lanney..

  Remember Chairburner's experience with the bees-waxed sheet at =
Elizabeth's Creek some years ago? Didn't he move in with you? lol

  Absalom=20
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Lanney Ratcliff=20
    To: History List ; AMM=20
    Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 9:20 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters


    I have seen occasional discussion about using high thread
    count.....300-400..... sheets to make lightweight shelters.  Has =
anybody
    actually done it and if so what was the result?  Untreated or if =
treated,
    with what?  I know the theory, what I would like to hear is real =
experience
    by real folks.  Thanks.


    Lanney Ratcliff
    [e-mail]
    ______________________________________________________________
    Aux Aliments du Pays



    ----------------------
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<HTML xmlns:v xmlns:o><HEAD>
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content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1>
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DMailContainerBody=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 10px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
COLOR: #000000; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 15px; FONT-STYLE: =
normal; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; =
BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; TEXT-DECORATION: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: =
none"=20
bgColor=3D#ffffff leftMargin=3D0 topMargin=3D0 name=3D"Compose message =
area"=20
CanvasTabStop=3D"true" acc_role=3D"text">
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>I think those abominations =
were cheap-o=20
sheets salvaged from some hospital......institutions not know for using =
luxury,=20
high thread count sheets.  Larry still talks about that =
"shelter"......says=20
it hardly even slowed down the rain, rather it turned it to a fine=20
mist.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>THAT I don't =
need.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">JIM =
BRYAN</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 29, =
2003 9:22=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Hi =
Thread Count=20
  Sheet Shelters</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>Lanney..</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Remember Chairburner's experience with the bees-waxed sheet at=20
  Elizabeth's Creek some years ago? Didn't he move in with you? =
lol</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Absalom </DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Lanney Ratcliff</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">History List</A> ; <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">AMM</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 28, =
2003 9:20=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Hi =
Thread Count=20
    Sheet Shelters</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>I have seen occasional discussion about using high=20
    thread<BR>count.....300-400..... sheets to make lightweight =
shelters. =20
    Has anybody<BR>actually done it and if so what was the result?  =

    Untreated or if treated,<BR>with what?  I know the theory, what =
I would=20
    like to hear is real experience<BR>by real folks. =20
    Thanks.<BR><BR><BR>Lanney Ratcliff<BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=
<BR>______________________________________________________________<BR>Aux=
=20
    Aliments du Pays<BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text =
list=20
    info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQU=
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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 29 Sep 2003 21:08:45 -0500

Lanney wrote :
I think those abominations were cheap-o sheets salvaged from some
hospital.....

>> Nope genuine Wal-Mart cotton sheets. . .  uh the same thing, huh ?  Hell,
I hadn't even heard of ' Egyptian Cotton ' way back then.  It was a real bad
idea.  I cut that thing up and used it for a bedroll cover and it worked
fine for that.  But, if you set it up as a Diamond and stretched it tight,
it
would leak like a sieve.
  The worst part was having to show up at Harris' and Craker's camp, hat in
hand, lookin for a dry place to sleep.  Just another episode I'll never live
down.  <GGG>

Pendleton



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thom Frazier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 29 Sep 2003 23:15:03 -0600



 Just another episode I'll never live
down.  <GGG>

Pendleton

Sounds like you may have more than one to live down.
Thom



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From: "JIM BRYAN" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 29 Sep 2003 23:55:27 -0500

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Well, you woulda lived it down if some a-hole hadn'ta mentioned =
it....lol
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: larry pendleton=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 9:08 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters


  Lanney wrote :
  I think those abominations were cheap-o sheets salvaged from some
  hospital.....

  >> Nope genuine Wal-Mart cotton sheets. . .  uh the same thing, huh ?  =
Hell,
  I hadn't even heard of ' Egyptian Cotton ' way back then.  It was a =
real bad
  idea.  I cut that thing up and used it for a bedroll cover and it =
worked
  fine for that.  But, if you set it up as a Diamond and stretched it =
tight,
  it
  would leak like a sieve.
    The worst part was having to show up at Harris' and Craker's camp, =
hat in
  hand, lookin for a dry place to sleep.  Just another episode I'll =
never live
  down.  <GGG>

  Pendleton



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<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DMailContainerBody=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 10px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
COLOR: #000000; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 15px; FONT-STYLE: =
normal; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; =
BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; TEXT-DECORATION: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: =
none"=20
leftMargin=3D0 topMargin=3D0 acc_role=3D"text" CanvasTabStop=3D"true"=20
name=3D"Compose message area"><?xml:namespace prefix=3D"v" =
/><?xml:namespace prefix=3D"o" />
<DIV>
<DIV>Well, you woulda lived it down if some a-hole hadn'ta mentioned=20
it....lol</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">larry pendleton</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 29, =
2003 9:08=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Hi =
Thread Count=20
  Sheet Shelters</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Lanney wrote :<BR>I think those abominations were =
cheap-o=20
  sheets salvaged from some<BR>hospital.....<BR><BR>>> Nope =
genuine=20
  Wal-Mart cotton sheets. . .  uh the same thing, huh ?  =
Hell,<BR>I=20
  hadn't even heard of ' Egyptian Cotton ' way back then.  It was a =
real=20
  bad<BR>idea.  I cut that thing up and used it for a bedroll cover =
and it=20
  worked<BR>fine for that.  But, if you set it up as a Diamond and=20
  stretched it tight,<BR>it<BR>would leak like a sieve.<BR>  The =
worst part=20
  was having to show up at Harris' and Craker's camp, hat in<BR>hand, =
lookin for=20
  a dry place to sleep.  Just another episode I'll never=20
  live<BR>down. =20
  =
<GGG><BR><BR>Pendleton<BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>his=
t_text=20
  list info: <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></=
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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hi Thread Count Sheet Shelters
Date: 30 Sep 2003 16:19:50 -0500

Sounds like you may have more than one to live down.
Thom

>> You and I both have more than a few to live down, Capt. Thom.  <GGG>  I
remember the time . . . . .

Pendleton




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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: off topic
Date: 30 Sep 2003 20:32:05 -0500

I need an informed opinion about a Luger P-08 pistol.  If anybody considers
him (her) self to be an expert on P-08's please contact me off list so I can
forward you a series of photos that have been sent to me, illustrating a
pistol that my brother has the hots for.  I know that photos alone are a
poor way to evaluate a gun but it's the best I have.

Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
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Aux Aliments du Pays



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