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From: "sunmac" <sunmac@bigfoot.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks Date: 01 Jan 2002 00:08:38 -0700 To all that gave their knolege and helped this poor wantabe hunter , may your hunt be the best and the beavers prime. Thank ye again. mac One should endeavor to never bleed on ones hobbies. > with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching Date: 01 Jan 2002 02:48:05 -0700 Dick, As has been noted, artificial sinew isn't even remotely period. A good period substitue is linen thread. You can get a spool from a saddle shop that will last your whole buckskinning career. Oh, and the stitches are both correct. If you use a running stitch with a welt, the threads are concealed and not as likely to get snagged and broken in the bushes..... Good luck. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching Date: 01 Jan 2002 15:52:53 -0600 <html> What about a saddle stitch. You know, where you use 2 needles, and pass the needles back and forth creating effectively a double-running stitch? I've used it with a welt on my shooting bags, and haversacks, since it's a TOUGH seam. The welt covers the stitches so that there's no wear on them. Downside, it DOES make a pretty thick seam that will rub, if not pounded flat.<br> I have not however, had a chance to look at any originals to see what style of stitch was used. <br> <br> <br> Todd<br> Missouri Territory <br> <br> At 03:37 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote: <br> <font size=3D2><blockquote type=3Dcite cite>In a message dated 12/31, C.Kent writes in responce to Dick: <br> <br> << ----(stuff deleted)---- <i>Both are correct. =A0I think the whip stitch is stronger and I like it for seams. =A0It makes a seam that will rub...but you can mash the seam flat with the back of your hawk or a machine hammer for that matter</i>. ----(stuff deleted)---- >> <br> <br> I would agree on the whip stitch, plus I would whip along the entire seam and then repeat in reverse along the seam agian. =A0Just my thoughts.=20 <br> <br> </font><font face=3D"BATAVIA" size=3D5>L</font><font= size=3D4>ongshot</font><font face=3D"arial" size=3D3> </blockquote><br> </font> <BR> </html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:asking for info please Date: 02 Jan 2002 01:17:23 +0000 He' Nauga, I really don't know what to do about the conflict of info. The way I see it is there is real or primary documents and original specimens to study, and on the other hand there is opinion and supposition. I quess the only thing you can do is offer people the historical facts and let people do what they will. The Modena rifle you mentioned is dated probably 1840's or early fifties. The silver inlay on the cheekrest states,"Purchased St. Louis 1833 Mariano Modena Gen. A. H. Jones Big Thompson Colo. 1878. As you read the engraving, you will note this was added to the rifle in 1878. That's one reason I question the plausibility of this rifle being made in 1833. This 1833 purchase may have been Gen. Jones supposition from Mariano's statement about when he went to the mountains. On page 34 of Hanson's "The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History" you will find a drawing of a Hawken owned by Edwin T. Denig, factor of Ft. Union. This drawing was done in 1851 by Rudolf F. Kurz. So in 1851 Kurz sees a rifle of very similar style and furnishings as the Modena rifle. Another interesting article I found in an old Muzzle Blasts, May 1978,entitled"the Quandry of the Fraternal Twins" by Lt. Col. Vaughn K. Goodwin, that covers the fullstock Hawken in the Smithsonian collection and the Kennett rifle in the museum of the Ozarks. It goes into minute detail discribing these Late full stock Hawkens. By late I mean after the rendezvous period. I hope you can find a copy, they are beautiful specimens. Your friend, Don Secondine >From: NaugaMok@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:asking for info please >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:35:13 EST > >In a message dated 12/31/01 1:51:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, >dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > ><< Nauga, Hawk, and Mike, I think we have a misunderstanding. I never >said, > "No Hawken ever went to a rondyvoo."Nor do I agree with such a statement. >I > said or at least meant for people on this list to understand is, the late > S.Hawken style rifle that the Great Plains Rifle tries to emulate, never >saw > a rondesvous. >> > >No misunderstanding. I understood what you said & agree, but there are >others who don't & my comment was to point out there ARE others who haven't >studied the subject & spout half truths like were printed in the past by >not >so reputable individuals who made the rash statements "No Hawkins or >percussion locks at Rendezvous". Your statement was entirely correct if we >go by Hanson's date (1849) on when Sam changed his barrel stamp. At >Beard's >date (1836), there may have been some early "S. Hawkins" make it to >Rendezvous in '37 & '38. I was looking for the date associated with the >Modina rifle, but was unable to find it. That could have shed some light >on >the subject because it was a late style. OK, now how do we deal with this >conflict of information? > >NM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Another use for Beaver Date: 02 Jan 2002 01:30:01 +0000 Howdy Fellas, Life in the Rocky Mountains, Ferris talks about a survival situation where "One or two individuals, anticipating the total absence of any stream or spring on the route, had providently supplied themselves with beaver skins of water,.....". I guess anything will work in a pinch. Don _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please Date: 31 Dec 2002 16:16:52 -0500 MIKE MOORE pard sure would like a copy of your documentation for my records on hawkens of the 6 in 1834 and the 10 in 1836 and 10 in 1837---my original i have was owned by seth rupp and then passed to his son manard rupp and them to me in 1960---I had it freashed by bill large in 1979 and then have been shooting it ever since it was a .510 when i got it but now is a .535---made a lot of meat with the old big gun---the gun was bought in the mountains not from st louisexactly where i dont know---but that is all the actual history and background i can fully establish---If i knew wher the 8 and the 2 10's were sold i might be able to link it to my gun---just a slim chance of course--- any info you might have would be appreciated-- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: WA hunting reports Date: 01 Jan 2002 23:58:43 EST Klahowya boys, Just a heads up.... For all of you that hunted in Washington State this year, it is now required that everyone submit a report, by January 31st, 2002. Even if you didn't make meat, or didn't even hunt, if you got a tag, you must submit a report to the below web site. If you don't....ya can't hunt this year in Washington....which is OK, cause there ain't many critters here anyway. <A HREF="http://www.fishhunt.dfw.wa.gov/">WADFW: License Sales</A> My buddy, with a straight face, asked the license lady for an elephant tag this year. The lady, with a straight face, sez "there ain't no elephants in Washington, sir". My buddies sez... "You sell elk tags right?" she sez "yes" He sez....."Well, there ain't no elk in Washington...sell me an elephant tag!" For some reason, I thought that was funny...even when she told us to leave.... All have a happy New Year, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please Date: 01 Jan 2002 22:08:10 -0700 Michael, Mr. Hanson lists the Chouteau papers (probably in the St. Louis Hist.Society's records), Y8; Z13-15, Z158, Z298 for his source on this information. I got it from the "Book of Buckskinning V", where you can see the entire article. Another person to talk to is Gail Potter at the Museum of the Fur Trade gdpotter@prairieweb.com , she is the current director and might even be able to contact Charlie himself or give you the full run down on it. I also have the same rifle in percussion (.54). I bought it first at a local gun shop, and put the word out that I was looking for the same in flint. Well, it didn't take long to find a friend which had one in his closet and hadn't shot it for about seven years. Anyway, I hope this helps with finding more info on the orignal. You have quite a piece there! I have a old Lancaster from 1838, like you I'm sure each gun ahs some good stories to tell if it could talk. This one of mine is about .43 with a back action lock on it. I use it at alot of demos and let people hand it. Nothing in the world like hefting a well used old gun to the shoulder. mike. hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > MIKE MOORE > pard > sure would like a copy of your documentation for my records on hawkens of > the 6 in 1834 and the 10 in 1836 and 10 in 1837---my original i have was > owned by seth rupp and then passed to his son manard rupp and them to me > in 1960---I had it freashed by bill large in 1979 and then have been > shooting it ever since it was a .510 when i got it but now is a > .535---made a lot of meat with the old big gun---the gun was bought in > the mountains not from st louisexactly where i dont know---but that is > all the actual history and background i can fully establish---If i knew > wher the 8 and the 2 10's were sold i might be able to link it to my > gun---just a slim chance of course--- > > any info you might have would be appreciated-- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > & "The Arkansas Underhammers" > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 02 Jan 2002 00:44:12 -0500 guys been a student and studied hawken rifles many years---started about 1960 ---argued with john beard till i was blue in the face---got to fondel quite a few originals in my time----even shoot a couple --got to admire art russel's fakes he passed off as originals---Be it a know fact hawkens canot be dated by the stamps as there are at least 6 different hawken stamps i know of and have rubbings of--- there is w. hawken---both stamp and in script there is J & S hawken stamp there is just the word Hawken stamp there is 3 different s. hawken stamps 1.one with a pointed w 2. one with a standard w 3. one with a nicked N and a short s (NOTE---i did not address hawken spelled with a S IE HAWKENS) and there was one copy out there that bill large was using and stamping guns for art russel-----"Arts originals"----it was a splash off the one that J. P. Gemner used after he bought out the hawken shop---art russel borrowed the original stamp and took a cerablem splash off of the gemner hawken stamp (I have one of the cerablem impressions ) and art russel had a company in st louis (cosco graphics) make a copy of it and he sent it to bill large to stamp some barrels for him with-saying to bill he was only trying to recreat a good hawken likeness--and most of the originals art had were stamped with that stamp---original hawkens---NO---custom made guns YES---I believe i even know the guy who made a couple of them--- there was also a hawken in american rifleman---a fancy one---that john beard wrote about as a new found hawken---BS----(GBG)--the gun was made by chuck pengry in 1970 and was a forged barrel that bill large stamped and recut for him---I called john when i saw the article and boy did we get into a heated discussion---note in the article he says (john beard) there was some replacement parts on the gun---ther sure was all of them including the wood--- now william hawken and christipher hawkens were out there---christipher made a bunch of hawken rifles ---and about 1/2 were stamped S. Hawken---not C. Hawken----if i am not mistaken several of his denver guns were stamped S.Hawken as were his st louis guns---in 1858 william S. hawken was building guns and guess what he marked his S. Hawken not W. S. Hawken---his stamp was one of the ones above noted ---most of the fancy hawkens were made by tristan campbell not s. hawken nut were sold by the hawken shop---who was one of the workers in the hawken shop--- who made original hawken rifles---guys there was a bunch of people who worked for the hawken shop---look at the tax rolls in st louis(Just for a start) ---at the people they had working---solid documentation---because a average man can only make about 1 gun a month and that is pushing it---that means that in the time span involved if jake and sam were working---there would have been only about a total of 300 guns with the hawken stamp---yet from shipping records and tax recors and from the shops logs hawken not only made guns they did a large repair business---so a average would have been no more than 10 a year max for each---and thats without having to deal with customers----gets murkey dont it guys--- now lets get even deeper and relly stur the pot---now to see some real original hawkens jefferson barrix has a few---and those bear 3 different hawken stamps---I have rubbings from them in my records wish we had ed white on this foreum---believe he has gone to the big maker---he took john and art russel both to task a many a time over hawken rifles just as i did---and the stunts they were trying to pull---John wanted to establish a standard hawken gun for the fur trade and art wanted to make money from the hawken name and slide in john beards coat tail------John beard was very bias on what he thought and considered a real Hawken rifle was---or a fur trade era hawken should be---hanson was probably the only real unbias person that told john how it relly was---and john never listened and neither did art---and hanson also knew the real facts and documented info just as i do and we talked about it several ocasions---wish doc baker was around as he was another one who knew his facts and just as myself had a bunch of pictures of originals and had fondeled a bunch of them---now for a good hawken copy try---bob reeves---he's dead now---sam could have not made a better hawken rifle--- so now are we all confused---what exactly is a fur trade period hawken---how can we establish a date on them---darn tough---almost impossible unless you track a individual rifle---believe there is only 5 or 6 hawkens that can be tracked all the way back to the time they were made thru all their owners------I know of 4 of those--- one is in england---they have the original shipping papers on it --- a person in st louis i know owns one--- and 2 others i know of???? and we didnt even talk about the flat breach hawken and the slant breach hawken and we also didnt get into the different triggers and trigger guards or the different butplates were there hawken in the rockey mountains during the fur trade---YES made by ??????---Jake , sam , william christipher---tyrone--hoffman,---campbell--- who knows???only the original makers were the hawken rifle barrels forged---billet ---cast steel ???? that went west during the fur trade period-----Yes---No Yes and possibly all the above--- were all hawken rifles that went west ---50 cal or above and 1-48 twist----NO NO on both questions--- what is the proper hawken for the fur trade period---as hanson would have said---boy do we have a worm pile now--- and we didnt even get into the different spelling for hawken rifles--- hawken and hawkens?????? bet i have relly mudded the water now--- Nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 02 Jan 2002 01:52:38 EST In a message dated 1/1/2 11:18:10 PM, hawknest4@juno.com writes: <<that john beard wrote about as a new found hawken-->> Right - there is no "S" on the true Hawken stamp and the author, John . . . spells his name Baird. There is a guy in Logan Utah that displays a "true" Hawken with the name engraved in script on the top flat of the barrel. Interestingly the graving goes right over the top of several pits that are deeper and older than the engraving. This same guy showed me a pipe tomahawk he had just picked up as authentic. I recognized it as on of Robert Kern's (he was still alive then) from Ligoner, Penna. - a sand casting - and asked him how many he wanted? (He paid $125 for his "original") Robert was retailing them for $4 and wholesale for 50% off. People just want to believe they have found a "true piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up. Sincerely Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Date: 02 Jan 2002 02:02:51 EST Frank Hi, cuz . . . Good to see your name on the screen again. It seems like a while. Enjoyed your comments pro and con on AMM. They have good goals, are based on fine ideals, and have a few bragadocios. Trouble is . . . these can be more noticable than the quality people just because of the noise they make. Its good to know you have the skills of discernment to separate the two extremes. Best wishes for this new year. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Horse Packing Revisited Date: 02 Jan 2002 06:17:56 -0700 Not to long ago we were discussing methods of tying loads onto pack stock and I have found something to add. Mr Landry may have referred to this and I was just to thick headed for it sink in. In reading Ewers Horse and the Blackfeet, which was so kindly given to me fer Christmas, he goes into detail about the blackfeet and other plains tribes use of pack horses. I know we have to be careful about assuming that the RMFT adopted things from the Indians but this one was some merit. Anyway they made a parfleshe or piece of rectangular rawhide that was folded similar to an envelope, bottom, then top, then both sides. This was then tied shut with laces that were built in. When ready to load up he showed two ways that were documented to attach to the horse. One, refered to as ôCrowö style, used rope loops that were pre-attached to the top of the parfleshe that were then dropped over their version/s of the pack saddle similar to a pannier. The other way had only small loops built into the parfleshe at the top and the bottom vertically and center of it horizontally. A strap was then run around saddle , horse and load, and then tied tight to hold it all on. Wonder how the latter would work? The strap could be the one that Mr Landry referred to. RMFT could have traded for similar equipment or camp keepers made them or substituted comercial leather for the rawhide. Ferris refers to their goods being protected by leather I believe. Anyway, perhaps some food for thought. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 02 Jan 2002 11:03:25 -0500 > There is a guy in Logan Utah that displays a "true" Hawken with the name > engraved in script on the top flat of the barrel. Interestingly the graving > goes right over the top of several pits that are deeper and older than the > engraving. This same guy showed me a pipe tomahawk he had just picked up as > authentic. I recognized it as on of Robert Kern's (he was still alive then) > from Ligoner, Penna. - a sand casting - and asked him how many he wanted? > (He paid $125 for his "original") Robert was retailing them for $4 and > wholesale for 50% off. People just want to believe they have found a "true > piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up. > > Sincerely > Richard James It's really too bad that there are so many Con Artists out there that will try and age horns, fake 'hawks, engrave a good Hawken and say it is original, etc... For a beginner, you have to be REAL careful who you buy stuff from and have a fairly decent knowledge of what really is what, and how things can be aged... CrookedHand did me a horn and aged it... damn if it don't look 200 years old... Even with my name on it, I could still pass it off as belonging to my g-g-g grandfather as the name is a family tradition going back MANY generations... Regards Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 02 Jan 2002 11:48:03 EST There is a purported "original" Hawken rifle on display at the Clymer Museum of Art in Ellensburg, WA. It could be an "undocumented" original gun. It is on loan from the widow of the owner. The barrel is stamped with the Hawken logo, but I don't remember which one. I talked to the museum director briefly to try and find out more about it. Since her forte' is art, she knew absolutely nothing about the gun other than what the widow told her. Because of time constraints, I wasn't able to gain access to it, or take any photographs. It is in a glass case and only the lock side is visible. I gather that the deceased owner of the gun was a wealthy benefactor of the museum and that the gun could have been in his possession for many years. I think it would be a real boon for someone who is knowledgeable in these guns to try and arrange a close examination of it. Perhaps Buck Conner or some of you other guys who travel a bit. Once the widow passes away, any prior knowledge about the gun will probably be lost, and it could end up somewhere in an estate auction and be lost to the public. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett <doublelongspring@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? Date: 02 Jan 2002 09:28:06 -0800 (PST) If anyone has the inclination to try to understand what and what was not said via this discussion group they may click on the address at the bottom of every posting to reveiw what is secured in the archives. Of course those with lessor integrety may/will try to delete all that was said as govts. do shred evidence. When someone says OUR in reference to their communities football team do they imply they are on the team? If someone says OUR church, in a community/town that only has one church, does that imply they are a member? When I said OUR brigade, is it possible that being from Montana and proud of the fact, that I could have been refering to OUR Brigade in the same manner? In veiw of the constant EXTRASENSITIVTY and ABSURD OVERSENTIVE comeback remarks posted on this site, why would anyone want to post their true idenity? Thus has it occured to anyone that Clint Garrett may be derived from Clint Black and Pat Garrett? As it has been posted, no one has found Clint Garrett in the databases. As for my idenity, if it happens to arouse someone's curosity and they think I am another citizen on the planet; it was never my intention to cause any greif for anyone resembling Clint Garrett. AND NO, TRUTHFULLY CLINT IS NOT MY NAME, FOR THE RECORD. Why would any member want my address anyway? Am I the noble canidate to receive an ANTHRAX LETTER from a AMM member or a carload of goons at my door? I think we need to Question Brotherhood here? I have a deep respect for those whom live the AMM lifestyle, I said LIVE. As it has been explained as well as in print on the AMM site PARTLY, the evolution of AMM. In it's infancy it was a modern survivevalist organization not revolutionaries against the state mind you. The founder, a man with a name like a protected bear in Montana changed it to escape harrassment by the feds when the contempt for survivalists was running amuck. In doing so the snooty types as well as purists and hardcores found a vent to further their(and mine)obsessions in regards to the current "buckskin craze". As many of the old ones have continued the torch as you see men of 60, 70, and hopefully beyond whom keep evolving and challenge us as 'greybeards' the younger aspiring skinners. They, thease giants whom have continued to grow are the icons whom trully exemplify AMERICAN MOUNTAIN MEN. While others by their infantile emotional reponses in discussion/debate as well as their compromises in the AMM lifestyle reflect to others that there are many whom reseble if not trully are AMANDA'A MUFFIN MAIDS. I mean we all can read books and it is important to do so. We all can make costumes and duplicate artifacts of the pre 1840 period. But to trap, hunt, and prosper from the land is another story. Some have in my breif post history inferred that the reservation indian has no weight in credibility; thus they have little contact with him. Even though he has been altered by govt. policy and a different social is he worth knowing and should AMM or buckskiners interact with them? Seems as I have read all trappers had some interaction with them as in the documents of which many worship as Jed's 66 he caried. This is my last post under this name. in veiw of the clashes with many whom resemble AMANDA'S MUFFIN MAIDS I will post under another name or names and deviate from my style. Those of you whom seek the higher vision, as i trully beleive everyone here trully does, i hope will continue to 'bronze' into AMERICAN MOUNTAIN MEN. Those others much of myself included, will have to yeild to critism and scrunity or else they will remain in their illusions and 'ivory tower' status. By that i mean there are a few whom react as if they have their PHD. and are the total authorities on the info while others suck up to them for fraternal security and political protection within the AMM( whether AMERICAN or AMANDA'S). To all of you whom seek the trail, CLINT GARRETT(but I'm not him) P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time for the good of all of us. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please Date: 02 Jan 2002 12:39:50 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 10:08 PM > Michael, > Mr. Hanson lists the Chouteau papers (probably in the St. Louis > Hist.Society's records), Y8; Z13-15, Z158, Z298 for his source on > this information. I got it from the "Book of Buckskinning V", where you > can see the entire article. Another person to talk to is Gail Potter at > the Museum of the Fur Trade gdpotter@prairieweb.com , she is the current > director and might even be able to contact Charlie himself or give you > the full run down on it. Mike, if Gail can contact Charley I would like to know how - because I'll market it on TV and be wealthy over night. He passed on to the other side a few years ago, see tribute. Tribute to a Friend In memory of Charles E. Hanson, Jr. by Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party Friend to all that met him and a personal friend for over 25 years, Charles E. Hanson, Jr. has passed away as of Wednesday the 4th of February, 1998. A native of Nebraska, an engineer, a spokesman, writer, museum director and one of the best researchers known for his work on the Fur Trade in North America and other parts of the world. He has traveled extensively between continents in his intensive quest for accurate details of this period. His documented work and collections are respected world wide, considered as one of the most knowledgeable people for the era; one of the few true experts on the Northwest gun. He was a good listener and a natural in any setting when talking about American History. His relationships with countless collectors, historians, librarians and museum personnel in going over records, journals and collected pieces has made it possible for everyone to enjoy this work through his writings and pictures, that otherwise only a few would have had access to. His exhaustive study of all aspects of this chapter in our history has uncovered information that had been lost for decades, now recorded in his many articles in the Museum of the Fur Trade Quartiles, his publications and books authored by him, now saved and studied by students of the Fur Trade, as well as the general public. A list of his contributions to the "buckskinner" movement is endless, a life member of the National Muzzle-Loading Rifle Association, a Charter member of the Buckhorn Skinners of Loveland, CO and the American Mountain Men are but just a few of his affiliations. His wife Marie has devoted hours of her time, being indispensable in assembling the manuscripts, making revisions necessary to insure consistency and accuracy, his sons have given support and valuable assistance in his many projects. A true family endeavor in bringing to life a missing part of a lost chapter in our history, and they still continue on with their research at the Museum with the help of the staff. A true to life dwelling now restored behind the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, Nebraska, "Bordeaux's Trading Post" is available to the public for viewing because of his efforts to show what living conditions were like for a European in a new world. To visit this post with him was a treat to walk back into history and vision what adventure lay at your doorstep with the rising of the sun on each day. Many have found in doing research they will come to a point that they are stalled with not knowing which way to continue. A letter to the Museum or a call would put Charles on the problem and in short order he had his students moving on, seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, as he would say. I have found that this help was not only to friends, but to a stranger soon to become a friend of Charles E. Hanson, Jr. and the Museum of the Fur Trade. I first met Charley in the mid 60's at the "Antique Gun Collectors Show" at Colfax and Broadway in Denver, CO in the old VFW Hall, he was talking to Jack Lewis, a world known antique gun collector and trader from Ohio. I had known Jack from a few years before, as my father was really into pre Civil War items and had dealings with Mr. Lewis several times. They were discussing a gatling gun at the door into the hall, it was serial number NO. 1 , in new condition and just a beauty per Charley. He stroked that gun like it was one of his kids, Jack introduced me to Mr. Hanson and that was the being of a long friendship. Over the years as time would allow with work and home life, I would call and have Charley make a reservation for a few nights at a friend's motel then slip away to Chadron and walk back into a different time zone. The Fur Trade was alive and well at Charley and Marie's house, sometimes a few friends would tag along or my Dad, sometimes I would make the trip from Denver alone. Either way the closer I got the faster I would drive, wanting as much time as possible to spend freezing my feet in mid winter looking at the many items on display, really didn't matter which case we were viewing, just being there was the best part. Charley would come out of the office and ask us to come in and get warm, no heat in the building other than his office when the museum was closed to the public. We would sit around him and ask questions and he would disappear for a moment then return with a book for reference and we would discuss the subject for hours. Then as our voices got softer with lack of moisture, Marie would appear from no wear, carrying a coffee pot, cups and home made pumpkin bread, or pumpkin cookies, or pumpkin rolls or pumpkin ............. whatever. She would tell us each time that this happened, that living in this country, the only thing she could grow was pumpkins and more pumpkins. "Marie could make anything one can think of with pumpkin" Charley would say as we all agreed, and damn good too. We knew she was having fun with us, we had been there enough to see the period garden and other projects these two had tried in that ground. Over the years I have called on Charley for information on articles that I would be writing or to get his opinion on how to make something, or the availability of an item for such and such or a place and time. He was always there with an answer and if he did not know, would do a little digging in his wonderful library and send you the information. He provided this type of service for thousands of students of the fur trade over the years, and half the time never even got a "thank you". We used to tell him to charge for his knowledge or his resources, he would just laugh and say something like "I enjoy helping" or "I don't want to turn anyone away". The cost of postage alone would make most people stop the service, but Charley and Marie would just keep going ahead with doing their thing and never complain. In the 70's when the Wounded Knee problem started to the north of Chadron, word got out after several of the kids from the reservation took items from their museum and sold them for booze on the west coast. They were going to come down to the Museum of the Fur Trade and do the same thing, the town folks got ready to defend the Museum until the National Guard got the OK to get involved. I was up at the Museum the next week, back in the library with Charley. Down one aisle was an old 92 Winchester leaning against the shelves, Charley remarked it was loaded as were several others within the building. He was ready to handle what needed to be done, if needed. I bet those kids would have had more than "wounded knees" if they came into Charlie's place and started trouble, that old boy would have filled their shorts with some hot lead from one of those old 44/40's. Seems everytime we were at Charley and Marie's, they would have a fur trade story or two to tell us, their research never ended and some of the funny stories are priceless that they could tell, I will give you a few examples. A Count or Duke that came over from Europe to hunt in the New World, he had as the first thing on his schedule, hire a guide, experienced in the wilderness and able to handle a party of gentlemen on a hunt, a person was found and a deal was made. In the arrangement the guide was to receive a trade gun for part of his payment, the agreement was completed and the local got his smoothbore. Before leaving the guide had a sight-in for his employers and a chance to try his new gun. To make the story short, he finds his trade gun does not shoot to point of aim, removes the barrel wraps it in a blanket and puts one end in the crouch of a tree and leans on it a touch. He then assembles his gun, while his employers watch in disbelief, this is repeated several times until it shoots to his satisfaction. Near the end of the hunting trip the guide has out shot his employers and one gentlemen tries to trade the guide out of the smoothbore. ╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖ Another story told of a English trader, who would make his rounds to different Indian villages on the Canadian border near Montreal and down to Rochester, N.Y, visiting each settlement about every other year as a normal practice. One of his trade items, guns, along with the usual other trade goods, picked up from sources in Canada. As time pasted on, replacement arms were always needed, missions where being set up and Indians were being taught to read and more trade was going on with others in the area. On one of his visits to a village he found that only a few guns were needed and the trade went poorly, upon looking around he discovered a young Indian was reading a paper on the repairs of a lock and had the needed parts for the repair in a small kit supplied by another trader. Up to this point selling arms was considered not dangerous, because they would break and be thrown away, but now with the knowledge to repair them, there is danger with the natives having arms. "God what have we done, created demons", was this gentlemen's first remark about his find. ╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖ The stories that friends of these two could tell would fill a dozen pages and then some, may God take care of Marie, we know he's already looking out for Charley. If you close your eyes and let your mind wonder, you too may see what many can invision, a camp fire with figures sitting around, a closer look at this scene the faces become clearer and right in the middle sits Charley asking questions, taking notes and living on every word of passed adventures as names of men and their deeds come together. Its Sublette, Williams, Smith, Bridger, the Bent's, Russell and others of by-gone years relaxed and enjoying each others company, right in the middle sits Charley asking questions, taking notes and living on every word of passed adventures as names of men and their deeds come together. On the edges of the light are a mixture of French, Crow, Blackfeet, Shoshoni, Assiniboin and others of mixed nationalities at peace with themselves and their brothers around them, equipage of the Fur Trade, bales of fur, plews stretched on willow hoops, horses grazing and several dogs lying among these men. In the foreground stands Miller and Catlin watching as Bodmer sketches this setting, a Frenchmen plays softly on a Jaw harp while several Native women tend to camp duties. This is a life time dream of ours and our friend, may this scene be replayed night after night, and may we join as our time draws near. God Bless you Charles E. Hanson, Jr., and continue on with your research in the most proper manner, now first hand or as your friends around that camp fire would say, "right from the horses mouth", we will miss you. God Bless both of you. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? Date: 02 Jan 2002 12:46:34 -0700 Clint, or whoever you will be next time, >P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time for >the good of all of us. Please don't bother. It's not for the good of all. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 02 Jan 2002 13:01:49 -0700 > There is a guy in Logan Utah that displays a "true" Hawken with the name > engraved in script on the top flat of the barrel. Interestingly the graving > goes right over the top of several pits that are deeper and older than the > engraving. This same guy showed me a pipe tomahawk he had just picked up as > authentic. I recognized it as on of Robert Kern's (he was still alive then) > from Ligoner, Penna. - a sand casting - and asked him how many he wanted? > (He paid $125 for his "original") Robert was retailing them for $4 and > wholesale for 50% off. People just want to believe they have found a "true > piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up. > > Sincerely > Richard James Dick, This happens all the time, I've seen Goose Bay Workshops old copper/brass kettles (ones without his new stamp) being sold in an antique shops at twice the price, darn near bought an "original" Gremmer Sharps until I did closer looking and found a few thread sizes that didn't fit for American - was an excellent antiquing job. Years ago I watched a "Mr. Know-It-All" buy an Spanish repro of a "CSA" marked model Colt 1860 - when it was appraised it turnout to be a phony that he bought for $8500 and really worth about $85, several of us told him to have it checked before jumping - oh well. Had a couple of native Americans (that I was housing) a few years ago - craftsman of good to better quality items, always late with the rent but had money for boozes. After a year of putting up with them and they moved on a friend from a local museum called trying to find these boys, seems they had sold several museums in the Denver area some faked antiques, never found them from the last I heard. The stories of this stuff is everywhere with real skilled craftsman that can make anything old with their skills, I met a guy that had done time for these skills, he now works at the Denver Art Museum in repairing old items - figure that one? You better know what your looking at when your going to spend serious money on an antique items anymore. Later Buck. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: re: hawkens Date: 02 Jan 2002 14:17:55 -0600 Richard James said, < People just want to believe they have found a "true piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up.> Very true Richard, its a human failing fired by greed. I once 'built' a short Ky. style flinter from an H&A kit. I sorta olded it up by using brown Kiwi shoe polish for stock finish, made the barrel browning very deep and rough, added some brass tacks and what all. To anyone with any old gun knowledge it was an obvious recent made fence post with a barrel. After a couple years of knocking around I traded it to a friend who was a bit of a gun trader. He took it to a gun show. While there some "expert" came by his table and started carrying about this fine old 'original' rifle. My friend, being honest, told him it was a recent made thing. The guy tried to educate him about how he knew it was original. As the [eventual] buyer carried on my friend kept raising the price. Eventually he let Mr. Know-it-all buy the thing at a grossly inflated price. That character resold it at a profit and today it hangs proudly over a bar in Wisconsin, where "everyone knows" it is an original. Owner claims it was built by some old timer in the Arkansas Ozarks. I guess that part is accurate. :-) Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 02 Jan 2002 16:33:07 EST --part1_135.722c857.2964d693_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : > > There is a guy in Logan Utah that displays a "true" Hawken with the name > > engraved in script on the top flat of the barrel. Interestingly the > graving > > goes right over the top of several pits that are deeper and older than the > > engraving. This same guy showed me a pipe tomahawk he had just picked up > as > > authentic. I recognized it as on of Robert Kern's (he was still alive > then) > > from Ligoner, Penna. - a sand casting - and asked him how many he wanted? > > (He paid $125 for his "original") Robert was retailing them for $4 and > > wholesale for 50% off. People just want to believe they have found a > "true > > piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up. > > > > Sincerely > > Richard James > Dick I don't know how well you know this Guy from Logan. But I know him Very well and know that Hansen him self had seen this gun and wanted to trade him out of it. So it authenticity is in doubt buy you when others seem to think it's legit. By the way he did not pay big bucks for it he only paid $300 for it back in the very early seventies. At a gun show from someone off the street that had inherited it. I guess the other three Hawkins he owns are phonies too. This man has been collecting old muzzlers since 1950. I would think he knows his stuff And Has one of the finest collections fur trade guns, traps and knives I have seen in one persons privet collections. He has won the best of show at several gun shows for his collection junk as he calls it. I wish I could own such Junk. Crazy Cyot --part1_135.722c857.2964d693_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">> There is a guy in Logan Utah that displays a "true" Hawken with the name <BR>> engraved in script on the top flat of the barrel. Interestingly the <BR>graving <BR>> goes right over the top of several pits that are deeper and older than the <BR>> engraving. This same guy showed me a pipe tomahawk he had just picked up <BR>as <BR>> authentic. I recognized it as on of Robert Kern's (he was still alive <BR>then) <BR>> from Ligoner, Penna. - a sand casting - and asked him how many he wanted? <BR>> (He paid $125 for his "original") Robert was retailing them for $4 and <BR>> wholesale for 50% off. People just want to believe they have found a <BR>"true <BR>> piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up. <BR>> <BR>> Sincerely <BR>> Richard James <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR>Dick <BR>I don't know how well you know this Guy from Logan. But I know him Very well and know that Hansen him self had seen this gun and wanted to trade him out of it. So it authenticity is in doubt buy you when others seem to think it's legit. By the way he did not pay big bucks for it he only paid $300 for it back in the very early seventies. At a gun show from someone off the street that had inherited it. I guess the other three Hawkins he owns are phonies too. This man has been collecting old muzzlers since 1950. I would think he knows his stuff And Has one of the finest collections fur trade guns, traps and knives I have seen in one persons privet collections. He has won the best of show at several gun shows for his collection junk as he calls it. I wish I could own such Junk. <BR>Crazy Cyot</FONT></HTML> --part1_135.722c857.2964d693_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? Date: 02 Jan 2002 16:46:44 EST In a message dated 1/2/2002 11:44:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, doublelongspring@yahoo.com (Clint Garrett) writes: << >P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time for the good of all of us. >> Dear ClintWhoEverYouThinkYouMightBeButAdmittedlyArent... I slipped this time, but thanks for again reminding me of the value of my DELETE button. I'll make better use of it in the future. Since I did open your UNSOLICITED, DIRECT MAIL to me, I have forwarded it to Dean Rudy, owner of this list. Mining the AMM List for eMail addresses for your self-serving rhetoric is not only in bad taste and bordering on unethical but is also improper use of the List. I would request that you immediately remove this name from your personal address book. If you want to address me, do it onlist, not hiding behind private eMail like you hide behind phony names; a trait not seen in any of the many AMM Brothers I have had the pleasure to know. Thank You. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please Date: 02 Jan 2002 14:50:18 -0700 Barry, Your're right. It was late after a long day and I should of known better. (As you and Pat S. have reminded me about the untimely passing on of Charley). But, I never put anything pass a confirmed historian- even if it is communicatng from beyond the grave. I have quote on my fridge from Alice Hoffman: "It is the deepest desire of every writer, the one we never admit or even dare to speak of; to write a book we can leave as a legacy. And although it is sometimes easy to forget, wanting to be a writer is not about reveiws or advances or how many copies are sold. It is much simplier than that, and more passionate. If you do it right, and if they publish it, you may actually leave something behind that can last forever." Charley and all others do speak to us today, even from beyond. People like Hafen, Chittenden, Sage, Ruxton and all the people we love to read still live on in their writings. They pass on info and give us a perpective which can not be done again. Heres to all those men. mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? Date: 02 Jan 2002 17:47:59 EST In a message dated 1/2/2 10:29:01 AM, doublelongspring@yahoo.com writes: << . . . As many of the old ones have continued the torch as you see men of 60, 70 . . . >> Pretty good letter until I got to the part that pointed out I was old. Dang! reality. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 02 Jan 2002 17:51:30 EST In a message dated 1/2/2 1:05:36 PM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes: <<Years ago I watched a "Mr. Know-It-All" buy an Spanish repro of a "CSA" marked model Colt 1860 - when it was appraised itturnout to be a phony that he bought for $8500 and really worth about $85, . . . .>> Ah - the price of an education these days. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 02 Jan 2002 18:00:49 EST In a message dated 1/2/2 2:34:36 PM, GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: <<don't know how well you know this Guy from Logan. But I know him Very well and know that Hansen him self had seen this gun and wanted to trade him out of it. >> I have known him for thirty years and I know he has some good stuff. When I first heard the story he had written a letter to Charlie and sent him pictures. Charlie told him from the pictures that the gun was probably real. Charlie didn't see the engraving over the top of a much older set of rust pits. The story gets better with time. I know he has one "original" Hawken that was nothing more than the barrel and a piece of the forestock found out west of the Ochre mountains here in Utah. He had a local riflesmith re-build it complete from modern castings and such and now displays it as "for real". He doesn't know that the statement of the re-build and the date is to be found hidden under the new-stocked barrel. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? Date: 02 Jan 2002 19:21:21 -0500 Please, good sir, isn't there some other list for you to enlighten and entertain? Tom (yes, I really am) Clint Garrett wrote: > ........................ > > To all of you whom seek the trail, > > CLINT GARRETT(but I'm not him) > > P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time for > the good of all of us. > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please Date: 02 Jan 2002 18:54:43 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:50 PM > Barry, > Your're right. It was late after a long day and I should of known > better. (As you and Pat S. have reminded me about the untimely > passing on of Charley). But, I never put anything pass a confirmed > historian- even if it is communicatng from beyond the grave. I figured it must be paint fumes or lack of sleep Mike. B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 02 Jan 2002 18:55:55 -0700 Ain't that the truth. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:51 PM > > In a message dated 1/2/2 1:05:36 PM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes: > > <<Years ago I watched a "Mr. Know-It-All" buy an Spanish repro of a "CSA" > marked model Colt 1860 - when it was appraised itturnout to be a phony that > he bought for $8500 and really worth about $85, . . . .>> > > Ah - the price of an education these days. > > Dick James > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Last bridge gone. Date: 02 Jan 2002 18:57:51 -0700 Like Mr. Roberts says Clint it's time to move on, you've burned all the bridges here. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 5:21 PM > Please, good sir, isn't there some other list > for you to enlighten and entertain? > > Tom (yes, I really am) > > > > Clint Garrett wrote: > > ........................ > > > > To all of you whom seek the trail, > > > > CLINT GARRETT(but I'm not him) > > > > P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time for > > the good of all of us. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 02 Jan 2002 19:07:51 -0700 Dave, "The more one thinks they have learned the less they really know" an old Dutchman told me that when I opened my big mouth about a Spencer rifle one time at a gun show in Lancaster PA back in the 60's. I made the remark about cal. and year of manufacture and was off on both (damn Dixie Gun Works Antique Catalog), that was my bible until I found out they didn't know anymore than what I had found out from asking questions from collectors. With the way things are doctored up today, it takes a real good collector to not get cheated, I like some of the faked stuff - looks better than the real thing sometimes. It's just the price that has to be worked around to pay for the artist's skills. <GG>. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:48 AM > There is a purported "original" Hawken rifle on display at the Clymer Museum > of Art in Ellensburg, WA. It could be an "undocumented" original gun. It is > on loan from the widow of the owner.......... > > I think it would be a real boon for someone who is knowledgeable in these > guns to try and arrange a close examination of it. Perhaps Buck Conner or > some of you other guys who travel a bit............ > > Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: WA hunting reports Date: 02 Jan 2002 19:22:48 -0800 Brothers, If you had any problems with the link below try this one: http://www.fishhunt.dfw.wa.gov/ . Should take you right to the page that offers you an opportunity to submit your report. Good story about the elephant Magpie. <G> Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Cc: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 8:58 PM > Klahowya boys, > > Just a heads up.... For all of you that hunted in Washington State this year, > it is now required that everyone submit a report, by January 31st, 2002. Even > if you didn't make meat, or didn't even hunt, if you got a tag, you must > submit a report to the below web site. > If you don't....ya can't hunt this year in Washington....which is OK, cause > there ain't many critters here anyway. > > <A HREF="http://www.fishhunt.dfw.wa.gov/">WADFW: License Sales</A> > > My buddy, with a straight face, asked the license lady for an elephant tag > this year. The lady, with a straight face, sez "there ain't no elephants in > Washington, sir". My buddies sez... "You sell elk tags right?" she sez "yes" > He sez....."Well, there ain't no elk in Washington...sell me an elephant tag!" > For some reason, I thought that was funny...even when she told us to leave.... > > All have a happy New Year, > > Magpie > > -------------------- > Aux Aliments de Pays! > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles Date: 02 Jan 2002 22:19:50 -0800 (PST) Dog, I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle. It is 3/4 rigged and was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in California in 1826 or 27. It would slip all over the place if I didn't use an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath. All of my gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar. I doubt that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the saddle from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions. I ride in some really hilly country and it is a necessity. In the end, though, all the breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a good seat. Best Regards, Jerry Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 06:58 PM 12/25/2001 -0800, you wrote: >I have not tried packing with a center fire pack >saddle, but do ride an 1870's stock saddle which >appears to be of Texas or Southwest origin. I have >chased cows several times in the Uintas with it, and >guarantee it slips a lot, especially on fat ol' grain >fed ponies with no withers going up a steep grade. Not >only does it slide back if not tightened at regular >intervals, it will roll sideways when dismounting in >order to tighten it. After a few ventures that could >have turned into real rodeos on panicky horses >(fortuneately none of the poor nags I rode had that >much spirit, or were used to stupid things happening) >I had it shifted to a 3/4 rig, and started using a >breast collar. In the country up here, it is pretty >much a necessity if you go at anything faster than a >walk. Are breast collars period? I don't know. Are >they needed? Damn straight, pardner, at least with a >center fire rig. > While on the subject of saddles, someone wrote >about a saddle for $3.00, and a complete saddle for >$5.00. If I remember right, a saddle was just the >tree, and a complete saddle was a rigged tree. That's >all for now from the high country, Happy Holidays, Dog > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching Date: 03 Jan 2002 01:40:07 -0600 The real issue here is being lost in what are really minor technicalities like what kind of thread you use. If you want to learn exactly how things were then you must do them precisely as they were done in even the most tedious element. Not everything must be done to that punctilious standard to fulfill our every function or to learn something worth knowing. It is important we know how, it is important that at some point we do it exactly right without compromise. Until then we can make do with what we've got to work with. Linen thread is a compromise on braintan. Exactly right is sinew. Linen happens to be more correct on soap tan (imitation braintan) than on real braintan. Linen would be used more on settlement dressed hides - not all settlement dressed hides were bark tanned, braintan deserves the very best -- sinew. This can get very involved and leads to some very loud discussions around campfires. Everybody owns at least one large spool of artificial sinew. Lousy thread, strong string, fuse the knots with heat to prevent unraveling. The real issue is: form follows function. The stitch you use is best chosen based on the needed function regardless of thread or material. The most noticeable difference in the two stitches heretofore discussed is how they look when finished. That is a result of how they lay. If you want a zig-zag looking finished seam; and neither strength nor complete closure of the seam are issues then the simple running stitch is adequate. If the seam would better lay flat to more simulate butt-joining the edge then the whip stitch is the better choice. Either stitch used with a welt better protects the thread and strengthens the seam. This presupposes a turned seam similar considerations apply to exposed finished seams. These two basic stitches are the foundation for most of the sewing we do. If the seam is better made to stand proud and strong and a uniform straight look to the finished work is desired then the saddle stitch or the doubled (sew to one end and then back) running stitch is the better choice. If an edge must take wear and the work cannot be "turned" to finish then a button hole stitch variation of the whip stitch may suit the purpose. A rolled seam can provide additional welting strength and can help shape the finished work. It and edge binding are generally stitched with a variation of the running stitch; some specialized work may call for courses of stitching to overlay. Think about what you are doing, its needed function and then what will work best. If you are making coats, shirts, leggings or pants it is pretty easy to sew in a fringe panel as a welt. Be careful with fringe, way too much is way too easy to achieve. One other stitch not before mentioned, that I find useful, is the chain stitch (like awl-for-awl tool). Long seams can be sewn more quickly; particularly useful when binding edges. Variations found favor among sail makers and millers, amongst many others. It is done with an awl which has a thread hole near the point. The disadvantage (advantage to some purposes) of a chain stitch (forerunner of a sewing machine stitch) is it can unravel and open the seam from a single break in the thread. I made my living, in years past, from the historic pattern business. I've never used one of the patterns myself. I have no formal training in sewing. The stuff is pretty simple, you look at it and make something like it that fits you. They didn't have printed patterns. To do it the old way -- do it the old way. If you don't do it the old way you don't learn the old lessons. The old way can be learned by stages, most people do. Over time you will want to make at least one of every little thing you wear or use in pursuit of your learning the old ways. Do the best you can with what you presently have to work with and know; later you will know more to better do it again. Not everything you have now (or then) must be of your own manufacture: they didn't back then; and then as now, if you use this stuff you use this stuff up. You will find what you have a talent for, try and trade for better on the other. A single spool of 2 strand twist linen thread is sufficient for nearly all leather sewing if you use a drop spindle to prepare thread lengths in precisely the ply required by the work. If you try and work with too long threads you will slow the work. How long are your arms? Proper waxing of the thread can increase breaking strength 50%. John... At 03:48 AM 1/1/02, you wrote: >Dick, > >As has been noted, artificial sinew isn't even remotely period. A good >period substitue is linen thread. You can get a spool from a saddle shop >that will last your whole buckskinning career. > >Oh, and the stitches are both correct. If you use a running stitch with a >welt, the threads are concealed and not as likely to get snagged and broken >in the bushes..... > >Good luck. > >Allen Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 03 Jan 2002 03:01:21 EST --part1_145.74094f2.296569d1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick You once more have proven to me your true nature. It sure is funny the things you can come up with. This good friend of yours has suffered a stroke and is not in very good heath. I was working with him and his son to get he's collection to display in the AMM display in Pinedale. But if it is all a bunch of B.S. as you say ?? Suppose his 58 cal. Left handed hawkin pistol is B.S. too. Dick I think if you have any more to say about my friend you had better do it off list to me. And we will dance off list. Crazy --part1_145.74094f2.296569d1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2> Dick <BR> You once more have proven to me your true nature. It sure is funny the things you can come up with. <BR> This good friend of yours has suffered a stroke and is not in very good heath. I was working with him and his son to get he's collection to display in the AMM display in Pinedale. But if it is all a bunch of B.S. as you say ?? Suppose his 58 cal. Left handed hawkin pistol is B.S. too. <BR>Dick I think if you have any more to say about my friend you had better do it off list to me. And we will dance off list. <BR>Crazy <BR> <BR></FONT></HTML> --part1_145.74094f2.296569d1_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please Date: 02 Jan 2002 15:14:22 -0500 thanks buck--- couldnt be said any better about a outstanding person devoted to his life quest--- nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? Date: 02 Jan 2002 15:16:55 -0500 clint--- save your keystrokes pard---you would probably be better off in another foreum--- Nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 02 Jan 2002 14:53:35 -0500 Richard James pard--- you know i cant spell worth a crap---but agree with your post---ben around the mountain a couple of times myself--- best to you in the new year- YMHOS "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please Date: 03 Jan 2002 07:51:49 -0700 Buck, Patch Peterson would like to talk to you, please contact me off list for the number. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please >Date: Wed, Jan 2, 2002, 6:54 PM > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mike Moore" <amm1616@earthlink.net> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:50 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please > > >> Barry, >> Your're right. It was late after a long day and I should of known >> better. (As you and Pat S. have reminded me about the untimely >> passing on of Charley). But, I never put anything pass a confirmed >> historian- even if it is communicatng from beyond the grave. > > >I figured it must be paint fumes or lack of sleep Mike. > >B. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: MtMan-List: "left handed long guns", Date: 03 Jan 2002 12:31:55 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C19452.A12A0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was working with him and his son to get he's collection to display in = the AMM display in Pinedale. But if it is all a bunch of B.S. as you = say ?? Suppose his 58 cal. Left handed hawkin pistol is B.S. too. = ............ Crazy=20 Here's a new subject line for you folks, Ladies and Gentlemen, Seems we forget the Ladies who are reading and offering suggestions also = - keep that in mind. New Subject: How common is a left handed long gun. Crazy's remark reminded me of an old subject "Suppose his 58 cal. Left = handed hawkin pistol ....."=20 I have been around antique firearms since I was born - my father was a = collector before the Great Depression, so needless to say we have seen a = few guns and a lot of junk if you will. Item mentioned; "left handed pistol"- these are not that uncommon = especially in cased sets, ex: -1700's Navy Officers often carried a = matched set, one reason was when in their waist band both locks would be = setting to the out side of their body and so on, think we all agree to = this from the examples that show up at gun shows, etc. New Subject: left handed long guns. As mentioned being around these guns as long as I can remember (very = early 1940's), I have only seen a few left handed flinters (they seemed = to have been built using a left side fowler SXS lock) and most of the = percussion guns where of later style "back action lock" design. This is = not be an accurate statement, so don't hold me to the fire, I'm asking a = question. =20 I always felt what we had seen, collected and traded was just an example = of what was being made available on the East coast at the time. I = remember going to Bannerman & Sons in NY different times with my father = and Uncles, if there had been any left handed long guns I must have = missed them (probably because of the number of weapons seen on = display-thousands and that no crap). So my question is "how common is a left handed long gun" and "would the = common man, trapper, adventurer and so on of normal wealth been able to = afford one if wanted. Plus another thought - parts would be a problem = ???? What are your thoughts. Buck. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C19452.A12A0800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>I was working with him = and his son=20 to get he's collection to display in the AMM display in Pinedale. = But if=20 it is all a bunch of B.S. as you say ?? <STRONG>Suppose his 58 = cal. Left=20 handed hawkin pistol is B.S. too</STRONG>. ............<BR>Crazy = <BR><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><EM>--------------------------------------------------</EM></FONT>= </FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Here's = a new=20 subject line for you folks, Ladies and Gentlemen,</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Seems we forget the Ladies who are = reading and=20 offering suggestions also - keep that in mind.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">New Subject: <STRONG>How = common is a=20 left handed long gun.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Crazy's remark reminded me of an old = subject</FONT><FONT size=3D2><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial> = "</FONT>Suppose his=20 58 cal. Left handed hawkin pistol ....."</STRONG></FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman"> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>I have been around antique = firearms=20 since I was born - my father was a collector before the Great = Depression, so=20 needless to say we have seen a few guns and a lot of junk if you=20 will.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Item<FONT size=3D2> </FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = size=3D3>mentioned;=20 <STRONG>"left handed pistol"-</STRONG> these are not that uncommon = especially in=20 cased sets, ex: -1700's Navy Officers often carried a matched set, one = reason=20 was when in their waist band both locks would be setting to the out side = of=20 their body and so on, think we all agree to this from the examples that = show up=20 at gun shows, etc.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">New Subject: left handed long=20 guns.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">As mentioned being around these guns = as long=20 as I can remember (very early 1940's), I have only seen a few left = handed=20 flinters (they seemed to have been built using a left side=20 fowler SXS lock) and most of the percussion = guns where=20 of later style "back action lock" design. This is not be = an=20 accurate statement, so don't hold me to the fire, I'm asking a = question. =20 </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">I always felt what we had seen, = collected and=20 traded was just an example of what was being made available on the East = coast at=20 the time. I remember going to Bannerman & Sons in NY different times = with my=20 father and Uncles, if there had been any left handed long guns I = must have=20 missed them (probably because of the number of weapons seen on = display-thousands=20 and that no crap).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">So my question is "how common is a = left handed=20 long gun" and "would the common man, trapper, adventurer and so on of = normal=20 wealth been able to afford one if wanted. Plus another thought - = parts=20 would be a problem ????</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">What are your thoughts.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Buck.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C19452.A12A0800-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "left handed long guns", Date: 03 Jan 2002 17:05:47 EST Barry Conner Wrote << I remember going to Bannerman & Sons in NY different times with my father and Uncles, if there had been any left handed long guns I must have missed them (probably because of the number of weapons seen on display-thousands>> Where in NY? the State or the City, does Bannerman & Sons still exist, and if it does, do they still have such a display it would be worth seeing. I'm just a black powder hunter and shooter and have never heard of them but I love to look at museum and private collections when time, money and opportunity present. Thanks for any info you can provide. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- Date: 03 Jan 2002 09:12:33 -0500 On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:33:07 EST GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: > > Dick > I don't know how well you know this Guy from Logan. But I know him > Very well > and know that Hansen him self had seen this gun and wanted to trade > him out > of it. So it authenticity is in doubt buy you when others seem to > think it's > legit. By the way he did not pay big bucks for it he only paid $300 > for it > back in the very early seventies. At a gun show from someone off the > street > that had inherited it. I guess the other three Hawkins he owns are > phonies > too. This man has been collecting old muzzlers since 1950. I would > think he > knows his stuff And Has one of the finest collections fur trade > guns, traps > and knives I have seen in one persons privet collections. He has won > the best > of show at several gun shows for his collection junk as he calls it. > I wish I > could own such Junk. > Crazy Cyot Crazy--- who is this person you speak of in logan utah---please send me the info offline---he may have some of the art russel knock offs that were being passed as originals---please send me his address and phone---sure would like to talk to him a bit and then i'll let you know what i thank---a lot of people who cant afford a original get good copies then when documentation is lost thru death or other ??? they seem to appear as new found originals documented back to the 70's---that is the time span art was having copies made---I know a couple of secrets about the copies--- Nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "left handed long guns", Date: 03 Jan 2002 16:23:31 -0700 Sorry, Bannermans is gone the way of the mountaineer, Bannermans Island where the Castle was built is very grown over almost totally obscuring what once was a thriving international firearms business. The last time I was there we weren't allow to go ashore as everything was private property. The Castle itself looked something like the rubble and debris of our Sept 11th tragedy. Charlie On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:05:47 EST CTOAKES@aol.com writes: > Barry Conner Wrote << I remember going to Bannerman & Sons in NY > different times with my father and Uncles, if there had been any > left handed long guns I must have missed them (probably because of > the number of weapons seen on display-thousands>> > > Where in NY? the State or the City, does Bannerman & Sons still > exist, and if it does, do they still have such a display it would be > worth seeing. I'm just a black powder hunter and shooter and have > never heard of them but I love to look at museum and private > collections when time, money and opportunity present. > > Thanks for any info you can provide. > > Y.M.O.S. > > C.T. Oakes > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "left handed long guns", Date: 03 Jan 2002 17:48:54 -0700 > Sorry, > Bannermans is gone the way of the mountaineer, > Bannermans Island where the Castle was built is > very grown over almost totally obscuring what once > was a thriving international firearms business. The last > time I was there we weren't allow to go ashore as > everything was private property. The Castle itself > looked something like the rubble and debris of our > Sept 11th tragedy. > Charlie > Charlie, I was there two years ago this past fall with a buyer from Dixie Gun Works (Jim - can't remember his last name), we where allowed to look at what was still useable - which he had made a bid on, and then see some items that where out in the weather (roof was gone in some sections). One item was a complete gatlin gun that had fallen through the floor into a chamber below, one wheel had broken spokes - but all the metal bands where there, before we left another gentleman came in from the Gun Parts Inc group and was talking about buying the gun mentioned along with several bushel baskets of percussion locks, butt plates and misc hardware from muskets. There are tons of parts if you are with a firm that buys in large quantities like those mentioned. Probably there's 10 times that amount in rusted junk metal parts, who knows how muck cord wood in stocks and forearms, what a place this was. Their address was Francis Bannerman Sons - 501 Broadway, N.Y. this island is 4 miles north of West Point called "Bannerman Island Arsenal", founded in 1865. Like Charlie says it looked and still does look like an old European castle, but you have to know someone to even get on shore, now that it's owned by private investors. Another piece of American History, almost gone. Buck. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Left-handed long guns Date: 04 Jan 2002 01:18:21 +0000 Howdy Buck, Whew! You possibly opened a can of worms on this one. This topic is debated quite a bit here in the east. When you look at the evidence(american rifles handed down to us through posterity)american left-hand rifles are non-existant. I have seen only seen two left hand long guns in my experience. These two flintlock fowlers were real fancy highly chiseled and wire inlay rich european guns owned by royalty. And I repeat, European and only two. BTW, thanks for your help on the AMM question. Wanisi Nee'tees, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <Ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Date: 03 Jan 2002 20:22:01 -0500 Dick, I was thinking of you the other day. Heard something on the radio about Utah, the Olympics, and a ban on guns or something. Upon hearing that I mentioned to my wife that we still have relatives out there in Utah. She still is not buying into the tepee in the mountains idea, yet. Hope you and your family had a great holiday season. Take Care, Frank ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:02 AM > Frank > Hi, cuz . . . Good to see your name on the screen again. It seems like a > while. Enjoyed your comments pro and con on AMM. They have good goals, are > based on fine ideals, and have a few bragadocios. Trouble is . . . these can > be more noticable than the quality people just because of the noise they > make. Its good to know you have the skills of discernment to separate the > two extremes. > > Best wishes for this new year. > > Dick James > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Bannerman Sites Date: 03 Jan 2002 21:04:34 EST --part1_be.207491ba.296667b2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <A HREF="http://www.pcnr.com/Culture/BannermansIsland.html">Click here: PCNR Bannermans Island</A> <A HREF="http://www.hudsonriver.com/bannerman.htm">Click here: Bannerman Island History -- A Hudson River Jewel</A> Here are a couple of sites if you wants to research further. Till trails cross+ Turtle --part1_be.207491ba.296667b2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2> <A HREF="http://www.pcnr.com/Culture/BannermansIsland.html">Click here: PCNR Bannermans Island</A> <BR><A HREF="http://www.hudsonriver.com/bannerman.htm">Click here: Bannerman Island History -- A Hudson River Jewel</A> <BR> <BR>Here are a couple of sites if you wants to research further. <BR>Till trails cross+ <BR>Turtle</FONT></HTML> --part1_be.207491ba.296667b2_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <Ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? Date: 03 Jan 2002 21:28:36 -0500 When I sit here on this computer typing and talking to others around the world, I do so in a way with much respect. I talk to this screen like I would talk across a fire or a table drinking a cup of hot coffee or sipping a good blend of whiskey. I have had agreements and many disagreements with people all over the world. But in all those discussions one thing remains true. That one thing is that I use my real name. I stand by what I say, be it right or wrong. I do not hide behind a different identity. I can respect a gent who comes out states his mind, be it right or wrong, as long as he believes in what he speaks. But a man who hides behind a diff. identity shows me that he is not secure or confident in his beliefs to stand behind them. Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 12:28 PM > > If anyone has the inclination to try to understand > what and what was not said via this discussion group > they may click on the address at the bottom of every > posting to reveiw what is secured in the archives. Of > course those with lessor integrety may/will try to > delete all that was said as govts. do shred evidence. > > When someone says OUR in reference to their > communities football team do they imply they are on > the team? If someone says OUR church, in a > community/town that only has one church, does that > imply they are a member? > > When I said OUR brigade, is it possible that being > from Montana and proud of the fact, that I could have > been refering to OUR Brigade in the same manner? > > In veiw of the constant EXTRASENSITIVTY and ABSURD > OVERSENTIVE comeback remarks posted on this site, why > would anyone want to post their true idenity? > > Thus has it occured to anyone that Clint Garrett may > be derived from Clint Black and Pat Garrett? As it has > been posted, no one has found Clint Garrett in the > databases. As for my idenity, if it happens to arouse > someone's curosity and they think I am another citizen > on the planet; it was never my intention to cause any > greif for anyone resembling Clint Garrett. AND NO, > TRUTHFULLY CLINT IS NOT MY NAME, FOR THE RECORD. > > Why would any member want my address anyway? Am I the > noble canidate to receive an ANTHRAX LETTER from a AMM > member or a carload of goons at my door? I think we > need to Question Brotherhood here? > > I have a deep respect for those whom live the AMM > lifestyle, I said LIVE. > > As it has been explained as well as in print on the > AMM site PARTLY, the evolution of AMM. In it's > infancy it was a modern survivevalist organization not > revolutionaries against the state mind you. The > founder, a man with a name like a protected bear in > Montana changed it to escape harrassment by the feds > when the contempt for survivalists was running amuck. > In doing so the snooty types as well as purists and > hardcores found a vent to further their(and > mine)obsessions in regards to the current "buckskin > craze". > > As many of the old ones have continued the torch as > you see men of 60, 70, and hopefully beyond whom keep > evolving and challenge us as 'greybeards' the younger > aspiring skinners. > > They, thease giants whom have continued to grow are > the icons whom trully exemplify AMERICAN MOUNTAIN MEN. > While others by their infantile emotional reponses in > discussion/debate as well as their compromises in the > AMM lifestyle reflect to others that there are many > whom reseble if not trully are AMANDA'A MUFFIN MAIDS. > > I mean we all can read books and it is important to do > so. We all can make costumes and duplicate artifacts > of the pre 1840 period. But to trap, hunt, and > prosper from the land is another story. Some have in > my breif post history inferred that the reservation > indian has no weight in credibility; thus they have > little contact with him. Even though he has been > altered by govt. policy and a different social is he > worth knowing and should AMM or buckskiners interact > with them? Seems as I have read all trappers had some > interaction with them as in the documents of which > many worship as Jed's 66 he caried. > > This is my last post under this name. in veiw of the > clashes with many whom resemble AMANDA'S MUFFIN MAIDS > I will post under another name or names and deviate > from my style. Those of you whom seek the higher > vision, as i trully beleive everyone here trully does, > i hope will continue to 'bronze' into AMERICAN > MOUNTAIN MEN. Those others much of myself included, > will have to yeild to critism and scrunity or else > they will remain in their illusions and 'ivory tower' > status. By that i mean there are a few whom react as > if they have their PHD. and are the total authorities > on the info while others suck up to them for fraternal > security and political protection within the AMM( > whether AMERICAN or AMANDA'S). > > To all of you whom seek the > trail, > > CLINT GARRETT(but I'm not him) > > P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time for > the good of all of us. > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: For the Record Date: 04 Jan 2002 03:00:52 +0000 Well said Frank, Most of the people on this list are fine stand up people. I'd enjoy a sip a whiskey with ya, and palaver over a nice campfire, might even argue a point or two. But, I believe I would still enjoy the comaraderie and mutual respect that real men afford one another. My DELETE button works real good, I had missed this last post by CLINT??? Long winded,ain't he? Don Secondine(authentic name) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ohilljack@cs.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: For the Record Date: 03 Jan 2002 22:10:13 -0500 >Well said Frank, > Most of the people on this list are fine stand up people. I'd enjoy a sip >a whiskey with ya, and palaver over a nice campfire, might even argue a >point or two. I agree with you all...I'm just trying to figure out what he, she or it is trying to prove...This is a fine group, and I know I don't post often, because I'm in the shutup, listen and learn mode... And I believe in standing up proud of who I am...Also have been known to associate with the likes of Hawk Pierce (VBG)....Thanks to you all for the continuing education.... Hilljack (Bill Marney Sr.) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: MtMan-List: New Column in Muzzleloader Date: 03 Jan 2002 20:41:41 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_3d13.38e9.4f73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI... Rex Norman will be writing a new feature in Muzzleloader Magazine starting in the March/April edition. The feature will be entitled "The Far West." He says he already has the first three submissions completed, with ten more in the works. Most of you should recognize Rex's name from his fine chapter in the Book of Buckskinning VIII and his sketch book based on Alfred Miller's paintings. Naturally this feature will focus on the western fur trade period. Hoorah for Mountain Doins! "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ----__JNP_000_3d13.38e9.4f73 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 http-equiv=3Dcontent-type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bottomMargin=3D0 leftMargin=3D3 rightMargin=3D3 topMargin=3D0> <DIV>FYI...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rex Norman will be writing a new feature in <EM>Muzzleloader Magazine= =20 </EM>starting in the March/April edition.</DIV> <DIV>The feature will be entitled "The Far West." He says he already has = the=20 first three submissions completed, with ten more in the works. Most of you= =20 should recognize Rex's name from his fine chapter in the Book of = Buckskinning=20 VIII and his sketch book based on Alfred Miller's paintings. Naturally this= =20 feature will focus on the western fur trade period. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hoorah for Mountain Doins!</DIV> <DIV><BR>"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML> ----__JNP_000_3d13.38e9.4f73-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? Date: 03 Jan 2002 23:12:07 -0500 > > Why would any member want my address anyway? Am I the > > noble canidate to receive an ANTHRAX LETTER from a AMM > > member or a carload of goons at my door? Clint my man, you are a total prig and a boor!!! How DARE you say such a thing in light of what has happened? You send me unsolicited emails... berate my friends here... HOW DARE YOU?? And all with NO GUTS to use your real name... Get a life and go bother other people!! Addison Miller (My REAL name... and I'll be glad to give you my address if you guarantee you'll come see me and allow me to teach you some manners the Mountain way!!) (In no way a threat... just a request) Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: For the Record Date: 03 Jan 2002 23:15:47 -0500 >...Also have been known to associate with the likes of Hawk Pierce (VBG)....Thanks > Hilljack (Bill Marney Sr.) Damn... there goes the neighborhood!!! <LAUGHS> See you two at Alafia... and anyone else who wants to stop by the Mouse House during the event.... (wonder if Hawk will remember the turkey call he promised me 2 years ago... <grins>) Got plenty of Mead brewed and ready, and we go from there... Regards, Ad ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@rangeweb.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles Date: 03 Jan 2002 21:41:52 -0700 Jerry Have you ever tried to stabilize that center fire saddle with a sircingle? A sircingle was a very common item as it appears is just about all of the inventories and trade goods lists that I have studied --- I wonder if this extra strap helped hold those light center fire saddles in position. Can you direct me to the source of the "description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in California in 1826 or 27" ?? I am always looking for first person descriptions of fur trade saddles. Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM > Dog, > > I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle. It is 3/4 rigged and > was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in > California in 1826 or 27. It would slip all over the place if I didn't use > an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath. All of my > gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar. I doubt > that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the saddle > from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions. I ride in some > really hilly country and it is a necessity. In the end, though, all the > breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a good seat. > > Best Regards, > > Jerry Zaslow #1488 > ____________________________________________________________________________ ____ > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Column in Muzzleloader Date: 03 Jan 2002 23:03:03 -0700 Teton, Glad to hear it! I've been impressed with Rex's work and very much look forward to this new addition. Not alot of RMFT in ML..... Allen At 08:41 PM 1/3/2002 -0700, you wrote: >FYI... > >Rex Norman will be writing a new feature in Muzzleloader Magazine >starting in the March/April edition. >The feature will be entitled "The Far West." He says he already has the >first three submissions completed, with ten more in the works. Most of >you should recognize Rex's name from his fine chapter in the Book of >Buckskinning VIII and his sketch book based on Alfred Miller's paintings. >Naturally this feature will focus on the western fur trade period. > >Hoorah for Mountain Doins! > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles Date: 03 Jan 2002 22:43:04 -0800 (PST) Clay, Good to hear from you. As far as the Jed Smith reference, Tom Nichols made my saddle. He is a Brother here in California and that is what he told me. I should see him in March at the Mission Doings and will specifically ask him for the reference at that time. I know it is not in his Journal, "The Southwest Expedition of Jedediah S. Smith, His Personal Account of the Journey to California, 1826-1827" or I missed it when I read it. As far as the sircingle, I have never used one because although I recall hearing the term, I can't remember where I saw it and don't remember exactly what it is. Is it a type of breast collar or something different? Actually after getting used to my saddle (about 4 years ago) I have not had any problem with it slipping anymore. That was more when I first started riding it. I also use a couple of blankets and that seems to have fixed the problem with slipping. Tell me more about the sircingle, though. Thanks and Best Regards, Jerry Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 09:41 PM 01/03/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Jerry > >Have you ever tried to stabilize that center fire saddle with a sircingle? A >sircingle was a very common item as it appears is just about all of the >inventories and trade goods lists that I have studied --- I wonder if this >extra strap helped hold those light center fire saddles in position. > >Can you direct me to the source of the "description of a saddle Jed Smith >acquired in California in 1826 or 27" ?? I am always looking for first >person descriptions of fur trade saddles. > >Clay Landry >Moorhead MT >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles > > >> Dog, >> >> I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle. It is 3/4 rigged >and >> was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in >> California in 1826 or 27. It would slip all over the place if I didn't >use >> an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath. All of >my >> gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar. I doubt >> that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the saddle >> from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions. I ride in some >> really hilly country and it is a necessity. In the end, though, all the >> breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a good >seat. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Jerry Zaslow #1488 >> >____________________________________________________________________________ >____ >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles Date: 03 Jan 2002 23:42:00 -0700 I use a 7/8 rigged saddle with a crupper and a martingale. all three are made by myself. I tried to style the martingale, aka breast collar as authentically as far as my skills and research could lead me. I have also gone out on a limb and discreetly lined the skirts with sheep skin. with all that, the saddle doesn't budge going up or down. I think, with the aid of the sheep skin. if I kept the cinch adjusted correctly, checking it every hour or two, I could leave the martingale and crupper at home. another reason I lined my saddle skirts is that it cuts down on saddle sores and since I ride whatever I can beg borrow or steal. the extra padding helps to minimize fitting problems with different animals. I also use a surcingle with a brown/black sheepuffalo, [Navajo sheep skin}mochia that makes for a very comfy and secure seat. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM > Dog, > > I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle. It is 3/4 rigged and > was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in > California in 1826 or 27. It would slip all over the place if I didn't use > an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath. All of my > gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar. I doubt > that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the saddle > from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions. I ride in some > really hilly country and it is a necessity. In the end, though, all the > breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a good seat. > > Best Regards, > > Jerry Zaslow #1488 > ____________________________________________________________________________ ____ > > At 06:58 PM 12/25/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >I have not tried packing with a center fire pack > >saddle, but do ride an 1870's stock saddle which > >appears to be of Texas or Southwest origin. I have > >chased cows several times in the Uintas with it, and > >guarantee it slips a lot, especially on fat ol' grain > >fed ponies with no withers going up a steep grade. Not > >only does it slide back if not tightened at regular > >intervals, it will roll sideways when dismounting in > >order to tighten it. After a few ventures that could > >have turned into real rodeos on panicky horses > >(fortuneately none of the poor nags I rode had that > >much spirit, or were used to stupid things happening) > >I had it shifted to a 3/4 rig, and started using a > >breast collar. In the country up here, it is pretty > >much a necessity if you go at anything faster than a > >walk. Are breast collars period? I don't know. Are > >they needed? Damn straight, pardner, at least with a > >center fire rig. > > While on the subject of saddles, someone wrote > >about a saddle for $3.00, and a complete saddle for > >$5.00. If I remember right, a saddle was just the > >tree, and a complete saddle was a rigged tree. That's > >all for now from the high country, Happy Holidays, Dog > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > >http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Gilbert" <sgilbert@avalon.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need ideas for trip Date: 04 Jan 2002 07:02:13 -0600 (CST) 'Morning Camp, Thank you all so much for the suggestions and help in finding some events to attend around Yellowstone. Brian and I are so excited to finally be getting out where it all happened. I'll keep ya posted on events, Sue Gilbert 6 Beaver Camp On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:15:08 -0800, rtlahti wrote: >Sue, > >I clipped this off the mlml list so as not to have to retype it since it >gives so much information and encouragement to attend. I can vouch for the >hype. For a non AMM event the RMNR is one heck of a great Rendezvous that I >don't council anyone to ever miss if they have never made it. I would >encourage you to change your schedule to encompas this event. Other than the >RMNR and the Pacific Primitive which is almost as big out in OR. earlier in >June I don't know of any events in your time frame. > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Re: the 2002! Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous... >For the benefit of list members who have not(recently)attended: >It is July 12th thru 20th. >It is at Elk Park, Utah, just south of Manila, Utah. >The RMNR has been there at least three times before. >It is a nice site...and the RMNR is a 'good-un'! Usually about 800 camps >and about 150-200 traders! >It is not necessarily for 'beginner, first-time rendezvousers'...unless you >been practicin'! >But it is not AMM either! You can't come as a "Bib-skinner"...but you can >definitely be a pilgrim if you and your camp meet the minimum pre-1840's >threshold. >If you want to know how LITTLE you can bring and get by, >ask TOF! >If you want to know how MUCH you can carry to Rendezvous, ask me! (My only >excuse is I have several times had 20+ adults and kids in my camp, and I >love it!) >The shooting program varies, and can be as good or bad as the willingness of >the participants to get involved...but there are a lot of shooters of all >ages... >Also, TOF and Carney seemed to have picked up a flinter or two at the 2001 >Rendezvous, undoubtedly again taking advantage of those of us of lesser >knowledge and acumen! >NOW that you can look at the photos...you can get an idea of what its >like...I really do like to encourage those who WANT to go, but are concerned >that the RMNR is just too 'regimented"...to just go for it! > > >Eric in Wyoming > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Usner <usnerd@bigplanet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Carson and his Hawkens Date: 04 Jan 2002 10:39:50 -0500 Your discussion about the Hawkens rifle has brought me out of my burrow. I've been writing a play about Kit Carson and his Hawkens rifle. I wanted to purchase a fairly good copy of this rifle. (Don't think I can afford an original.) What should I look to spend on this and where should I look for it? Dave ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:12 AM > > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:33:07 EST GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: > > > > Dick > > I don't know how well you know this Guy from Logan. But I know him > > Very well > > and know that Hansen him self had seen this gun and wanted to trade > > him out > > of it. So it authenticity is in doubt buy you when others seem to > > think it's > > legit. By the way he did not pay big bucks for it he only paid $300 > > for it > > back in the very early seventies. At a gun show from someone off the > > street > > that had inherited it. I guess the other three Hawkins he owns are > > phonies > > too. This man has been collecting old muzzlers since 1950. I would > > think he > > knows his stuff And Has one of the finest collections fur trade > > guns, traps > > and knives I have seen in one persons privet collections. He has won > > the best > > of show at several gun shows for his collection junk as he calls it. > > I wish I > > could own such Junk. > > Crazy Cyot > > Crazy--- > who is this person you speak of in logan utah---please send me the info > offline---he may have some of the art russel knock offs that were being > passed as originals---please send me his address and phone---sure would > like to talk to him a bit and then i'll let you know what i thank---a lot > of people who cant afford a original get good copies then when > documentation is lost thru death or other ??? they seem to appear as new > found originals documented back to the 70's---that is the time span art > was having copies made---I know a couple of secrets about the copies--- > > > Nuff said--- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > & "The Arkansas Underhammers" > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> Subject: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark Date: 04 Jan 2002 10:36:24 -0600 A friend was saying he read that there was some kind of compressed air gun with Lewis & Clark, a gun that was "pumped up" by hand and fired a lead ball. I never heard this. Any of you historical experts run across this? Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: saddles Date: 04 Jan 2002 10:52:45 -0600 Have any of you noticed the riggings on donkeys and mules on the news for Afganistan and other behind-the-times countries? They don't seem to rig them right at all but put just incredibly huge loads on those poor critters. Just a single strap or rope around the gut. Seems to work but I gotta feel sorry for the animals. Frank Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark Date: 04 Jan 2002 10:20:27 -0700 Dianne, Go to: http://www.pbs.org/lewisandclark/inside/idx_equ.html If you have trouble with the link or want more references get back to me. Ned neddins@silverstar.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: For the Record Date: 04 Jan 2002 11:01:48 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:15 PM > > >...Also have been known to associate with the likes of Hawk Pierce > (VBG)....Thanks > > Hilljack (Bill Marney Sr.) > "Some people know how to shoot themselves in the foot right off". Welcome Bill. Buck. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Left-handed long guns Date: 04 Jan 2002 11:31:42 -0700 He' Don, That's my point the only original long guns that I have seen in person, collector manuals or collector magazines that where "left handed" that I can remember where of a fancy high dollar style, not something the common man would be able to afford. So why are so many of the "Mr. Know-It-Alls" carrying LEFT handed flintlocks and claiming to be a scout, hunter, or trapper of modest means ? If these guns - "left handed locks" where not that common when compared to the thousands of right handed ones that most use, aren't these folks missing the point with their persona of the common man ? So once again my question is "how common is a left handed long gun" and "would the common man, trapper, adventurer and so on of poor to normal wealth been able to afford one if wanted. I'm asking for your (members) thoughts on this one, I really don't know and would be only guessing - no proof or documentation ! Wanisi Nee'tees, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 6:18 PM > Howdy Buck, > Whew! You possibly opened a can of worms on this one. This topic is > debated quite a bit here in the east. When you look at the evidence(american > rifles handed down to us through posterity)american left-hand rifles are > non-existant. I have seen only seen two left hand long guns in my > experience. These two flintlock fowlers were real fancy highly chiseled and > wire inlay rich european guns owned by royalty. And I repeat, European and > only two. > BTW, thanks for your help on the AMM question. > Wanisi Nee'tees, > Don Secondine > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson and his Hawkens Date: 04 Jan 2002 14:44:46 EST In a message dated 1/4/2 9:37:21 AM, usnerd@bigplanet.com writes: << Kit Carson and his Hawkens rifle. I wanted to purchase a fairly good copy of this rifle. (Don't think I can afford an original.) What should I look to spend on this and where should I look for it?>> Check out Track of the Wolf. Good stuff. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark Date: 04 Jan 2002 15:23:40 EST In a message dated 1/4/02 8:41:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes: << A friend was saying he read that there was some kind of compressed air gun with Lewis & Clark, a gun that was "pumped up" by hand and fired a lead ball. Since the link didn't work when I tried it: In the Lewis & Clark Journals, the air rifle is talked about when they spent the winter at the Mandan Village, among other places. It was Lewis' "toy" he used to impress the Native Americans. It developed enough punch it could kill deer -- without the big bang the normal rifles made. The air rifle they had looked quite similar to the 1803 Harpers Ferry rifles they carried with the exception of the "wrist" area of the stock. The air rifle's wrist was curved much like our modern gun stocks instead of being straight as was common to stocks of that period. At the end of the curved area was attached the air chamber. This chamber was spherical, and removable. The pump to pressurize the chamber was separate. Basically, the air rifle looked pretty much like any other rifle except for the "air ball" at the end of the grip area in the butt stock. The air chamber would hold enough air for several "firings", so they were pretty quick to reload once they had pressure up. Air rifles of this size, were not all that uncommon then in Europe & definitely had not been deemed "kid toys" yet. Looking through European history, you'll find the air rifles were quite popular with the upper class. Unfortunately, they were EXPENSIVE, so lost out to the less expensive "powder burners". They also fell into that area of disrepute our modern "assault weapons" have when someone figured out they made excellent sniper & assassination weapons. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" <ghickman9@attbi.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark Date: 04 Jan 2002 13:40:41 -0700 Dianne, Take a look at this web site: http://www4.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html The .31 cal. air rifle was a big hit on the expedition. All of the Native Americans encountered were intrigued by it. It is mentioned frequently in the journals. Lewis had it made for him when he was in Philadelphia prepping for the expedition. It was very accurate, but there is one story of Lewis accidentally hitting a woman bystander with it during a demonstration. YMOS Bead Shooter ----- Original Message ----- > A friend was saying he read that there was some kind of compressed air gun > with Lewis & Clark, a gun that was "pumped up" by hand and fired a lead > ball. I never heard this. Any of you historical experts run across this? > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson and his Hawkens Date: 04 Jan 2002 15:19:17 -0700 David, Email off list, may have one for you to look at. mike. David Usner wrote: > Your discussion about the Hawkens rifle has brought me out of my burrow. > I've been writing a play about Kit Carson and his Hawkens rifle. I wanted to > purchase a fairly good copy of this rifle. (Don't think I can afford an > original.) What should I look to spend on this and where should I look for > it? > > Dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <hawknest4@juno.com> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:12 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- > > > > > > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:33:07 EST GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: > > > > > > Dick > > > I don't know how well you know this Guy from Logan. But I know him > > > Very well > > > and know that Hansen him self had seen this gun and wanted to trade > > > him out > > > of it. So it authenticity is in doubt buy you when others seem to > > > think it's > > > legit. By the way he did not pay big bucks for it he only paid $300 > > > for it > > > back in the very early seventies. At a gun show from someone off the > > > street > > > that had inherited it. I guess the other three Hawkins he owns are > > > phonies > > > too. This man has been collecting old muzzlers since 1950. I would > > > think he > > > knows his stuff And Has one of the finest collections fur trade > > > guns, traps > > > and knives I have seen in one persons privet collections. He has won > > > the best > > > of show at several gun shows for his collection junk as he calls it. > > > I wish I > > > could own such Junk. > > > Crazy Cyot > > > > Crazy--- > > who is this person you speak of in logan utah---please send me the info > > offline---he may have some of the art russel knock offs that were being > > passed as originals---please send me his address and phone---sure would > > like to talk to him a bit and then i'll let you know what i thank---a lot > > of people who cant afford a original get good copies then when > > documentation is lost thru death or other ??? they seem to appear as new > > found originals documented back to the 70's---that is the time span art > > was having copies made---I know a couple of secrets about the copies--- > > > > > > Nuff said--- > > > > "HAWK" > > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > > & "The Arkansas Underhammers" > > 854 Glenfield Dr. > > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark Date: 04 Jan 2002 14:16:34 -0700 > > Take a look at this web site: http://www4.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html > > The .31 cal. air rifle was a big hit on the expedition. All of the Native > Americans encountered were intrigued by it. It is mentioned frequently in > the journals. Lewis had it made for him when he was in Philadelphia prepping > for the expedition. It was very accurate, but there is one story of Lewis > accidentally hitting a woman bystander with it during a demonstration. > > YMOS > Bead Shooter ----------------------- What's really interesting about this gun, Mr. Beeman (of air rifle fame) along with several others in that field have suggested the gun at the museum is not the gun that was built in Phila. and taken on the journey, something about the air chamber and a few other pieces of the museum gun aren't correct according to the drawings that came from that shop that built the original gun, now both the gun and plans are at the same museum. Why didn't the folks at the museum look at the drawings before showing the gun back in the 1930's ? Buck. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles Date: 05 Jan 2002 01:03:57 EST Jerry, Like Clay, I'd be very interested in a source that describes Jedediah Smith's saddle acquired in California too. It would be a big help to the Jedediah Smith Society. I look forward to your providing that for the list. Thanks in advance Jim Hardee ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Left-handed long guns--Now stirrups Date: 05 Jan 2002 07:31:56 -0700 Mr. Buck Conner wrote: That's my point the only original long guns that I have seen in person, collector manuals or collector magazines that where "left handed" that I can remember where of a fancy high dollar style, not something the common man would be able to afford. So why are so many of the "Mr. Know-It-Alls" carrying LEFT handed flintlocks and claiming to be a scout, hunter, or trapper of modest means ? If these guns - "left handed locks" where not that common when compared to the thousands of right handed ones that most use, aren't these folks missing the point with their persona of the common man ? Being about as common as you can get, I asked about this very question on list about a year ago. Here is what it comes down to for me. I shoot left handed, which means when I eventually get my flintlock it will either be built left handed so I can be a ôMr. Know It Allö or it will be right handed and I will shoot it on the wrong side. I know I will sometimes be shooting without safety glasses because I wont wear them hunting or likely not often while on the ground. If I go to a line or specifically to shoot sure I will wear some. That may not be the safest plan but it is reality. No one last year could answer me clearly that the chance of being blinded or injured by a piece of flint or burning powder are improbable or that it makes no difference which side the lock is on. If it gives me an edge when it comes to my vision, I will sacrifice authenticity. I am facing a similar dilemma with my stirrups. I am using English style D ring irons because I believe they are more accurate than the cut down cowboy stirrups that most use and call Indian stirrups. I may someday build some Indian stirrups as Bill Cunninghams book show you how but I am not ready for that yet. My son likes my style and so we got him some irons for Christmas. Now I have twice had occasion with mine that my foot has hung in the stirrup. Both were minor incidences but with mocs I have no heel and having my or my sons foot slip through a stirrup and allow a horse to drag us to death has a certain unpleasent aurora about it. English saddles are built so that the leathers can slip off if the pressure pulls backward but I have my leathers wrapped securely around the bars of the saddle. I am seriously considering making tapadoras so our feet can not slip too far in. Unauthentic? Of course. If someone has another suggestion I will gladly hear it. (By the way other than the safety issue I really like the irons. They are lighter and have more movement than Western stirrups. Or the other complaints I heard from people who had not tried them, I do not find them cold or overly hard to stay in when working fast.) Please excuse the rambling Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Left-handed long guns--Now stirrups Date: 05 Jan 2002 15:22:30 +0000 He' Wynn, What is the title of that book by Cunningham. I want to peek at it. I have a friend here in Ohio that cut his stirrups out of a block of real thick wood and they look like the stirrups you see in paintings of the period.Mexican or New Mexican looking things. But anyway, he wears moccasins and his feet don't get hung up in them. I'll ask him where he got the pattern and what the style is called, if you want me to. His saddle is made from a rawhide covered tree with straight straps to hang his stirrups on and a cinch and that is about as simple as it gets. I'll have to look at it in more detail when we see each other again. Talk to you later, Don >From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: Hist mail <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: Left-handed long guns--Now stirrups >Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 07:31:56 -0700 > >Mr. Buck Conner wrote: > That's my point the only original long guns that I have seen in person, > >collector manuals or collector magazines that where "left handed" that I >can >remember where of a fancy high dollar style, not something the common >man >would be able to afford. So why are so many of the "Mr. Know-It-Alls" >carrying LEFT handed flintlocks and claiming to be a scout, hunter, or >trapper of modest means ? If these guns - "left handed locks" where not > >that common when compared to the thousands of right handed ones that >most >use, aren't these folks missing the point with their persona of the >common >man ? > >Being about as common as you can get, I asked about this very question >on list about a year ago. Here is what it comes down to for me. I >shoot left handed, which means when I eventually get my flintlock it >will either be built left handed so I can be a ôMr. Know It Allö or it >will be right handed and I will shoot it on the wrong side. I know I >will sometimes be shooting without safety glasses because I wont wear >them hunting or likely not often while on the ground. If I go to a line >or specifically to shoot sure I will wear some. That may not be the >safest plan but it is reality. > >No one last year could answer me clearly that the chance of being >blinded or injured by a piece of flint or burning powder are improbable >or that it makes no difference which side the lock is on. If it gives >me an edge when it comes to my vision, I will sacrifice authenticity. > >I am facing a similar dilemma with my stirrups. I am using English >style D ring irons because I believe they are more accurate than the cut >down cowboy stirrups that most use and call Indian stirrups. I may >someday build some Indian stirrups as Bill Cunninghams book show you how >but I am not ready for that yet. > >My son likes my style and so we got him some irons for Christmas. Now I >have twice had occasion with mine that my foot has hung in the stirrup. >Both were minor incidences but with mocs I have no heel and having my or >my sons foot slip through a stirrup and allow a horse to drag us to >death has a certain unpleasent aurora about it. English saddles are >built so that the leathers can slip off if the pressure pulls backward >but I have my leathers wrapped securely around the bars of the saddle. >I am seriously considering making tapadoras so our feet can not slip too >far in. > >Unauthentic? Of course. If someone has another suggestion I will >gladly hear it. (By the way other than the safety issue I really like >the irons. They are lighter and have more movement than Western >stirrups. Or the other complaints I heard from people who had not tried >them, I do not find them cold or overly hard to stay in when working >fast.) > >Please excuse the rambling >Wynn Ormond > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter <mail4dog@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: stirrups Date: 05 Jan 2002 07:49:13 -0800 (PST) Howdy Win! I had considered using English style irons at one time too, as I believe they are pretty much period also, but found a pair of bentwood stirrups from a childrens saddle and used them instead. They are the same as regular stirrups but a bit smaller across, and also not as tall, thus making it impossible for my foot to slip through even in mocs. As a matter of fact it is really difficult to get a boot in them. Perhaps you could find some English irons from a childs saddle that would work for you. I think that might work for you. DOG __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter <mail4dog@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles Date: 05 Jan 2002 07:56:57 -0800 (PST) The point that noone has mentioned about Center Fire rigs is that when the saddle is properly positioned on the horses back, the cinch goes around the largest part of the horses barrel, so a little slide forward or back and voila! the saddle is loose. rerigging to a 3/4 or rimfire puts the cinch ahead of the barrel, thus eliminating this problem. The rimfire setup also would allow one to double rig, but I don't know how period that is. I think that development came about with cow work which sorta puts it out of our time period. DOG __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need to unsubscribe temporarily Date: 05 Jan 2002 11:19:06 EST Please unsubscribe me from this list. I've got to go on active duty for the CO Nat'l Guard for a few weeks. Thanks, John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: palmer@netdor.com (Palmer Schatell) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles Date: 04 Jan 2002 00:20:55 -0500 Sir: I am in the process of replicating a Civil War cap pouch and need a small amount of sheep skin with the wool on. A piece about 4 X 4 inches would be fine. If you have any scrap of this size or larger I would happy to buy it from you. Palmer (trescoupes) Schatell 13255 S.W. 9th Court G-101 Pembroke Pines, FLA. 33027 palmer@netdor.com ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 1:42 AM > I use a 7/8 rigged saddle with a crupper and a martingale. all three are > made by myself. I tried to style the martingale, aka breast collar as > authentically as far as my skills and research could lead me. > I have also gone out on a limb and discreetly lined the skirts with sheep > skin. with all that, the saddle doesn't budge going up or down. > I think, with the aid of the sheep skin. if I kept the cinch adjusted > correctly, checking it every hour or two, I could leave the martingale and > crupper at home. another reason I lined my saddle skirts is that it cuts > down on saddle sores and since I ride whatever I can beg borrow or steal. > the extra padding helps to minimize fitting problems with different animals. > I also use a surcingle with a brown/black sheepuffalo, [Navajo sheep > skin}mochia that makes for a very comfy and secure seat. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry & Barbara Zaslow" <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles > > > > Dog, > > > > I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle. It is 3/4 rigged > and > > was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in > > California in 1826 or 27. It would slip all over the place if I didn't > use > > an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath. All of > my > > gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar. I doubt > > that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the saddle > > from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions. I ride in some > > really hilly country and it is a necessity. In the end, though, all the > > breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a good > seat. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Jerry Zaslow #1488 > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > ____ > > > > At 06:58 PM 12/25/2001 -0800, you wrote: > > >I have not tried packing with a center fire pack > > >saddle, but do ride an 1870's stock saddle which > > >appears to be of Texas or Southwest origin. I have > > >chased cows several times in the Uintas with it, and > > >guarantee it slips a lot, especially on fat ol' grain > > >fed ponies with no withers going up a steep grade. Not > > >only does it slide back if not tightened at regular > > >intervals, it will roll sideways when dismounting in > > >order to tighten it. After a few ventures that could > > >have turned into real rodeos on panicky horses > > >(fortuneately none of the poor nags I rode had that > > >much spirit, or were used to stupid things happening) > > >I had it shifted to a 3/4 rig, and started using a > > >breast collar. In the country up here, it is pretty > > >much a necessity if you go at anything faster than a > > >walk. Are breast collars period? I don't know. Are > > >they needed? Damn straight, pardner, at least with a > > >center fire rig. > > > While on the subject of saddles, someone wrote > > >about a saddle for $3.00, and a complete saddle for > > >$5.00. If I remember right, a saddle was just the > > >tree, and a complete saddle was a rigged tree. That's > > >all for now from the high country, Happy Holidays, Dog > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > > >Do You Yahoo!? > > >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > >http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > >---------------------- > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson and his Hawkens Date: 05 Jan 2002 10:42:15 -0500 On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:44:46 EST SWzypher@aol.com writes: > > > Check out Track of the Wolf. Good stuff. > Richard James > a good place to start but they arnt going to be cheep---over $1000 for a decent copy ---and a real good one with good barrel and parts can go over $1500 depending on the craftsmanship and the parts--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark Date: 05 Jan 2002 10:05:36 -0500 sure were air guns with lewis and clark and they were fairly large bore we had a discussion on this same subject about a year and a half ago---and all the info on them came out---just went thru my old messages on this computer dont have it here but i have pictures of them somewhere---that someone sent me---I wanter to build one at one time but due to work load and time have not accomplished it there are several guys on this list that have the info if they are still around---if they dont post it i will try to recover the info and send it to you---look first in the inventory of the discovery trip---believe it will give you a listing there--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:36:24 -0600 "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> writes: > A friend was saying he read that there was some kind of compressed > air gun > with Lewis & Clark, a gun that was "pumped up" by hand and fired a > lead > ball. > > I never heard this. Any of you historical experts run across this? > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Left-handed long guns Date: 05 Jan 2002 10:38:51 -0500 On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:31:42 -0700 "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> writes: > So once again my question is "how common is a left handed long gun" and > "would the common man, trapper, adventurer and so on of poor to normal > wealth been able to afford one if wanted. I'm asking for your (members) > thoughts on this one, I really don't know and would be only guessing - no > proof or documentation ! > > Wanisi Nee'tees, > Buck Conner > "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 buck I agree with you on only seeing fancy left handed guns probably owned by persons of high stature and means --but I have a right handed gun that has the stock notched our so that the shooter can use his left eye to shoot with looks like some one relly butchered the butstock gun is dated late 1700 to early 1800 it is flint probably for someone who had their right eye put out and didnt think to shoot the right handed gun left handed---you can see the sights easy with your left eye if you get a spot weld---big hunk out of that butstock---relly looks strange---have kept it just because of that cant say when it was altered of if it was made that way it was a very old fix--- I have never seen original poorboy in left hand or a tenn or verginia gun nor a northwest gun and as you say most of the originals were quite fancy (high doller type) and all that i have seen were rifles not smoothbores---and i have probably fondeled several thousand originals in my time---no left hand original hawkens known by me---no left hand original lemans known by me----but who am i to say???--a riflesmith that builds a left hand gun would have to make a left hand lock a mirrow or the right hand---if one was made and documented the lock was probably taken off of a double gun and installed on the rifle---like salvageing parts---as we do today to repair old guns if the parts can be found---in st louis during the fur trade period there were several lock filers---(people who made locks) they are posted in the tax rolls and their ledgers are on file in jefferson barrix ---and I have perrused them pretty good and saw no note on makeing any left hand locks except for double shotguns and they were sold in pairs---the mail order catalogs for gun parts for tyrone and company dont reflect any left hand locks unless i missed something so the lock would have to be custom made and be a one of a kind item---(Special Order) and custom made----some of the records from back east might reflect left hand locks but probably would be as i say custom made and expensive ---IE almost the cost of the whole rifle---and a hawken sold for $8 to $12 during that period---to custom make a lock from scratch without patterns and such would take a lot of time---and it would be a one of a kind thing--- Just my humbel thinking and info i have avail and have seen--- Nuff said---- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@rangeweb.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles Date: 05 Jan 2002 12:20:02 -0700 Jerry A surcingle (spelled numerous ways in the trade ledgers of the Rocky Mountain fur trade) was a large belt 3 to 4 inches wide-Grimsley made them from webbing or leather- that was strapped around the saddle and the horse/mule to further secure the saddle. They passed trhough the saddle seat and around the grith of the horse/mule. Based on the drawings and art work of Alfred Jacob Miller the mountaineers used a surcingle to hold the ephismore -a piece of buffalo robe used to cover the saddle-in place. If you study the military horse equipment books done by Randy Steffen you will see that a surcingle was used over the military saddles from the early dragoons clear into late Indian wars period. Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:43 PM > Clay, > > Good to hear from you. As far as the Jed Smith reference, Tom Nichols made > my saddle. He is a Brother here in California and that is what he told me. > I should see him in March at the Mission Doings and will specifically ask > him for the reference at that time. I know it is not in his Journal, "The > Southwest Expedition of Jedediah S. Smith, His Personal Account of the > Journey to California, 1826-1827" or I missed it when I read it. > > As far as the sircingle, I have never used one because although I recall > hearing the term, I can't remember where I saw it and don't remember exactly > what it is. Is it a type of breast collar or something different? Actually > after getting used to my saddle (about 4 years ago) I have not had any > problem with it slipping anymore. That was more when I first started riding > it. I also use a couple of blankets and that seems to have fixed the > problem with slipping. Tell me more about the sircingle, though. > > Thanks and Best Regards, > > Jerry Zaslow #1488 > ____________________________________________________________________________ ____ > > At 09:41 PM 01/03/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >Jerry > > > >Have you ever tried to stabilize that center fire saddle with a sircingle? A > >sircingle was a very common item as it appears is just about all of the > >inventories and trade goods lists that I have studied --- I wonder if this > >extra strap helped hold those light center fire saddles in position. > > > >Can you direct me to the source of the "description of a saddle Jed Smith > >acquired in California in 1826 or 27" ?? I am always looking for first > >person descriptions of fur trade saddles. > > > >Clay Landry > >Moorhead MT > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> > >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles > > > > > >> Dog, > >> > >> I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle. It is 3/4 rigged > >and > >> was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in > >> California in 1826 or 27. It would slip all over the place if I didn't > >use > >> an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath. All of > >my > >> gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar. I doubt > >> that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the saddle > >> from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions. I ride in some > >> really hilly country and it is a necessity. In the end, though, all the > >> breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a good > >seat. > >> > >> Best Regards, > >> > >> Jerry Zaslow #1488 > >> > >___________________________________________________________________________ _ > >____ > >> > >> > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: stirrups Date: 05 Jan 2002 14:49:02 EST ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: stirrups Date: 05 Jan 2002 14:51:57 EST Missed most of this discussion, but if you are looking for bent wood stirrups, I bought a pair a week or so back, only they do have a piece of galvanized tin around them. I wouldn't think that would be to hard to remove. Picked mine up for under $30.00. I see the fairly often if you need help. Joe AKA Ridge Pole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Left-handed long guns Date: 05 Jan 2002 12:58:08 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 8:38 AM On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:31:42 -0700 "BARRY CONNER"<conner_one@email.msn.com> writes: So once again my question is "how common is a left handed long gun" and "would the common man, trapper, adventurer and so on of poor to normal wealth been able to afford one if wanted. I'm asking for your (members) thoughts on this one, I really don't know and would be only guessing - no proof or documentation ! Wanishi, Buck ----------------------- buck I agree with you on only seeing fancy left handed guns probably owned by persons of high stature and means --but I have a right handed gun that has the stock notched our so that the shooter can use his left eye to shoot with looks like some one relly butchered the butstock gun is dated late 1700 to early 1800 it is flint probably for someone who had their right eye put out and didnt think to shoot the right handed gun left handed---you can see the sights easy with your left eye if you get a spot weld---big hunk out of that butstock---relly looks strange---have kept it just because of that cant say when it was altered of if it was made that way it was a very old fix--- have a percussion gun done the same, as well as an 1893 Marlin rifle done the same by my grandfather who was blinded later in life in his right eye, he said he had the hold down so why change. I have never seen original poorboy in left hand or a tenn or verginia gun nor a northwest gun and as you say most of the originals were quite fancy (high doller type) and all that i have seen were rifles not smoothbores---and i have probably fondeled several thousand originals in my time---no left hand original hawkens known by me---no left hand original lemans known by me----but who am i to say??? --------------------- same here and I agree with what you said --------------------- Special Order) and custom made----some of the records from back east might reflect left hand locks but probably would be as i say custom made and expensive ---IE almost the cost of the whole rifle---and a hawken sold for $8 to $12 during that period---to custom make a lock from scratch without patterns and such would take a lot of time---and it would be a one of a kind thing--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce -------------------------- I entered this subject on the AMM member list and have received about the same response, no one has seen anything other than very high dollar left hand long guns that probably belonged to Lords, Dukes or well paid factors. See what Ray Glazner says; Buck, It was not uncommon for people to force lefties to do everything with their right hand up until the 1960s. I remember in school in the 40's and 50's anyone who tried to write with his/her left hand was punished (my friends in Catholic schools tell tales of the Nuns using rulers on thier knuckles. I too have been a collector and gun enthusiast since the late 40's and have seen very few left handers Including Bannermans and the many many museums I have been in both in the US and around the world. These include Smithsonian, Cody, Eagle, West Pt. Dixsons,Springfield, Museums in England, France, Germany, Italy Switzerland, and Australia. As a consultant and historian I have been in the private collection of many and the back room of a great many museums I also have an extensive book collection on firearms- ergo the conclusion I make is there were very few left hand guns at least of the surviving examples. Ray -------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! Let's keep looking. Buck. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Stirrup Irons Date: 05 Jan 2002 13:12:33 -0700 Don asked > What is the title of that book by Cunningham. I want to peek at it. Lighting GrandmaÆs Fire by Bill Cunningham ISBN 1-890437-33-6 Sort of a how to book with multiple projects. Not to bad as books go. >I have a friend here in Ohio that cut his stirrups out of a block of real >thick wood and they look like the stirrups you see in paintings of the >period.Mexican or New Mexican looking things I do not see those type in Millers work or believe they were used a whole lot by RMFT in the North to Central Rockies. They also look big and bulky. Like I said I like the irons. >His saddle is made from a rawhide covered tree with straight straps > to hang his stirrups on and a cinch and that is about as simple as it gets. ThatÆs mine also no seat, skirting, or fenders. But I do use a crupper especially with the mule. I have not noticed to much movement with this. It is rigged 3/4 and I slip the cinch a bit forward on most mounts, that kind of put a tension between the cinch and the crupper. C Kent wrote >I am forever being told to keep only the ball of my foot on the stirrup...so that if I fall or need to >dismount the stirrup will not catch my foot. And to weat slick bottomed shoes..smooth leather. >Sounds like greased-for-weather mocs fit the bill there. So could the question be keep the >english D-irons and get comfortable with cautious foot positioning. Allen Hall called me a horseman once and I take great pride in that compliment. I can do a fair job at riding the balls of my feet with heels down keeping a good seat. It was when the crupper broke and mule bucked the saddle onto her neck that it became difficult to keep the stirrups in the proper position. Fast work in the trees can have similar effect. OK honestly it was looking up from the ground after the mule bucked the saddle onto her neck and my foot was still in the stirrup that worries me! (She looked innocently down at me like she could not figure why I was lying around like that) >My boot got hung in the stirrup and I can still recall vividly what the underside of a galloping >mustang looks like. I got drug over the roots of a mulberry tree and turned loose just before the >pony tried to make it through the narrow gate with me dangling from said stirrup. My point exactly. Dog wrote: >They are the same as regular stirrups but a bit smaller >across, and also not as tall, thus making it >impossible for my foot to slip through even in mocs The problem here is that I use the same saddle with all kinds of footwear. I donÆt always get dressed up to ride. I still think a rawhide strap run around from either side to side or top to bottom would be best. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need to unsubscribe temporarily Date: 05 Jan 2002 15:33:19 -0500 Good luck John, and be safe.... hurry back.... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett <doublelongspring@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too! Date: 05 Jan 2002 16:32:41 -0800 (PST) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Clint Garrett <doublelongspring@yahoo.com> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 12:28 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: FOR THE > RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? > > > > > > If anyone has the inclination to try to understand > > what and what was not said via this discussion > group > > they may click on the address at the bottom of > every > > posting to reveiw what is secured in the archives. > Of > > course those with lessor integrety may/will try to > > delete all that was said as govts. do shred > evidence. > > > > When someone says OUR in reference to their > > communities football team do they imply they are > on > > the team? If someone says OUR church, in a > > community/town that only has one church, does that > > imply they are a member? > > > > When I said OUR brigade, is it possible that being > > from Montana and proud of the fact, that I could > have > > been refering to OUR Brigade in the same manner? > > > > In veiw of the constant EXTRASENSITIVTY and ABSURD > > OVERSENTIVE comeback remarks posted on this site, > why > > would anyone want to post their true idenity? > > > > Thus has it occured to anyone that Clint Garrett > may > > be derived from Clint Black and Pat Garrett? As it > has > > been posted, no one has found Clint Garrett in the > > databases. As for my idenity, if it happens to > arouse > > someone's curosity and they think I am another > citizen > > on the planet; it was never my intention to cause > any > > greif for anyone resembling Clint Garrett. AND NO, > > TRUTHFULLY CLINT IS NOT MY NAME, FOR THE RECORD. > > > > Why would any member want my address anyway? Am I > the > > noble canidate to receive an ANTHRAX LETTER from a > AMM > > member or a carload of goons at my door? I think > we > > need to Question Brotherhood here? > > > > I have a deep respect for those whom live the AMM > > lifestyle, I said LIVE. > > > > As it has been explained as well as in print on > the > > AMM site PARTLY, the evolution of AMM. In it's > > infancy it was a modern survivevalist organization > not > > revolutionaries against the state mind you. The > > founder, a man with a name like a protected bear > in > > Montana changed it to escape harrassment by the > feds > > when the contempt for survivalists was running > amuck. > > In doing so the snooty types as well as purists > and > > hardcores found a vent to further their(and > > mine)obsessions in regards to the current > "buckskin > > craze". > > > > As many of the old ones have continued the torch > as > > you see men of 60, 70, and hopefully beyond whom > keep > > evolving and challenge us as 'greybeards' the > younger > > aspiring skinners. > > > > They, thease giants whom have continued to grow > are > > the icons whom trully exemplify AMERICAN MOUNTAIN > MEN. > > While others by their infantile emotional > reponses in > > discussion/debate as well as their compromises in > the > > AMM lifestyle reflect to others that there are > many > > whom reseble if not trully are AMANDA'A MUFFIN > MAIDS. > > > > I mean we all can read books and it is important > to do > > so. We all can make costumes and duplicate > artifacts > > of the pre 1840 period. But to trap, hunt, and > > prosper from the land is another story. Some > have in > > my breif post history inferred that the > reservation > > indian has no weight in credibility; thus they > have > > little contact with him. Even though he has been > > altered by govt. policy and a different social is > he > > worth knowing and should AMM or buckskiners > interact > > with them? Seems as I have read all trappers had > some > > interaction with them as in the documents of which > > many worship as Jed's 66 he caried. > > > > This is my last post under this name. in veiw of > the > > clashes with many whom resemble AMANDA'S MUFFIN > MAIDS > > I will post under another name or names and > deviate > > from my style. Those of you whom seek the higher > > vision, as i trully beleive everyone here trully > does, > > i hope will continue to 'bronze' into AMERICAN > > MOUNTAIN MEN. Those others much of myself > included, > > will have to yeild to critism and scrunity or else > > they will remain in their illusions and 'ivory > tower' > > status. By that i mean there are a few whom react > as > > if they have their PHD. and are the total > authorities > > on the info while others suck up to them for > fraternal > > security and political protection within the AMM( > > whether AMERICAN or AMANDA'S). > > > > To all of you whom seek the > > trail, > > > > CLINT GARRETT(but I'm not > him) > > > > P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time > for > > the good of all of us. > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <Ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Footwear Date: 05 Jan 2002 19:47:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C19621.C777F820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was over at the AMM site reading a few of the supply logs for various = rendezvous. Mentioned in a few were boots. Do you know what kind of = boots these were? I have read many books and all mention mocs that the = mountain men and hunters wore. Did any of these gents wear boots? If = you could point me in the direction of some info., I would greately = appreciate it. Thanks, Frank V. Rago ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C19621.C777F820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I was over at the AMM site reading a = few of the=20 supply logs for various rendezvous. Mentioned in a few were = boots. =20 Do you know what kind of boots these were? I have read many books = and all=20 mention mocs that the mountain men and hunters wore. Did any of = these=20 gents wear boots? If you could point me in the direction of some = info., I=20 would greately appreciate it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank V. = Rago</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C19621.C777F820-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Footwear Date: 05 Jan 2002 20:08:25 EST Frank, Although I can't find it off hand, I got some boots and hada some printed info from a company in Henrietta, Tejas called Buffalo Runner. They had done quite a bit of research of the footwear of the period, and produce what is, IMHO, a darn nice product. Their boots were also sold by a sutler out of Loveland, CO by the name of Cloak Drummer Company. Here's the last contact info I had. Barney Buffalo Runner Boots 107 South Bridge Street, Henrietta, TX 76365 (940) 538-5301 Cloak-Drummer Company Beverly Flitcroft 8328 Mummy Range Dr, Fort Collins, CO 80528-9216 (970) 622 - 9557 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W Jones" <pwjones@myexcel.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too! Date: 05 Jan 2002 19:40:28 -0600 Well Gang, True to his word, "Clint," the he/she/it mystery person has again posted his strange ramblings for all to consider. Some say he is from Dillon, Mt. I have been told that his last name is or might be Soule, but that is still subject to some further digging. Whatever his last name, I understand that he makes about the same impression in person on individuals with whom he has spoken as he does to those of us who have received his messages. I guess sick puppies are just too hard to put down, but if Dean Rudy has any magic powers, perhaps he can end this poor fellows dance with us. Just my thoughts, Paul ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 6:32 PM > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Clint Garrett <doublelongspring@yahoo.com> > > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 12:28 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: FOR THE > > RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? > > > > > > > > > > If anyone has the inclination to try to understand > > > what and what was not said via this discussion > > group > > > they may click on the address at the bottom of > > every > > > posting to reveiw what is secured in the archives. > > Of > > > course those with lessor integrety may/will try to > > > delete all that was said as govts. do shred > > evidence. > > > > > > When someone says OUR in reference to their > > > communities football team do they imply they are > > on > > > the team? If someone says OUR church, in a > > > community/town that only has one church, does that > > > imply they are a member? > > > > > > When I said OUR brigade, is it possible that being > > > from Montana and proud of the fact, that I could > > have > > > been refering to OUR Brigade in the same manner? > > > > > > In veiw of the constant EXTRASENSITIVTY and ABSURD > > > OVERSENTIVE comeback remarks posted on this site, > > why > > > would anyone want to post their true idenity? > > > > > > Thus has it occured to anyone that Clint Garrett > > may > > > be derived from Clint Black and Pat Garrett? As it > > has > > > been posted, no one has found Clint Garrett in the > > > databases. As for my idenity, if it happens to > > arouse > > > someone's curosity and they think I am another > > citizen > > > on the planet; it was never my intention to cause > > any > > > greif for anyone resembling Clint Garrett. AND NO, > > > TRUTHFULLY CLINT IS NOT MY NAME, FOR THE RECORD. > > > > > > Why would any member want my address anyway? Am I > > the > > > noble canidate to receive an ANTHRAX LETTER from a > > AMM > > > member or a carload of goons at my door? I think > > we > > > need to Question Brotherhood here? > > > > > > I have a deep respect for those whom live the AMM > > > lifestyle, I said LIVE. > > > > > > As it has been explained as well as in print on > > the > > > AMM site PARTLY, the evolution of AMM. In it's > > > infancy it was a modern survivevalist organization > > not > > > revolutionaries against the state mind you. The > > > founder, a man with a name like a protected bear > > in > > > Montana changed it to escape harrassment by the > > feds > > > when the contempt for survivalists was running > > amuck. > > > In doing so the snooty types as well as purists > > and > > > hardcores found a vent to further their(and > > > mine)obsessions in regards to the current > > "buckskin > > > craze". > > > > > > As many of the old ones have continued the torch > > as > > > you see men of 60, 70, and hopefully beyond whom > > keep > > > evolving and challenge us as 'greybeards' the > > younger > > > aspiring skinners. > > > > > > They, thease giants whom have continued to grow > > are > > > the icons whom trully exemplify AMERICAN MOUNTAIN > > MEN. > > > While others by their infantile emotional > > reponses in > > > discussion/debate as well as their compromises in > > the > > > AMM lifestyle reflect to others that there are > > many > > > whom reseble if not trully are AMANDA'A MUFFIN > > MAIDS. > > > > > > I mean we all can read books and it is important > > to do > > > so. We all can make costumes and duplicate > > artifacts > > > of the pre 1840 period. But to trap, hunt, and > > > prosper from the land is another story. Some > > have in > > > my breif post history inferred that the > > reservation > > > indian has no weight in credibility; thus they > > have > > > little contact with him. Even though he has been > > > altered by govt. policy and a different social is > > he > > > worth knowing and should AMM or buckskiners > > interact > > > with them? Seems as I have read all trappers had > > some > > > interaction with them as in the documents of which > > > many worship as Jed's 66 he caried. > > > > > > This is my last post under this name. in veiw of > > the > > > clashes with many whom resemble AMANDA'S MUFFIN > > MAIDS > > > I will post under another name or names and > > deviate > > > from my style. Those of you whom seek the higher > > > vision, as i trully beleive everyone here trully > > does, > > > i hope will continue to 'bronze' into AMERICAN > > > MOUNTAIN MEN. Those others much of myself > > included, > > > will have to yeild to critism and scrunity or else > > > they will remain in their illusions and 'ivory > > tower' > > > status. By that i mean there are a few whom react > > as > > > if they have their PHD. and are the total > > authorities > > > on the info while others suck up to them for > > fraternal > > > security and political protection within the AMM( > > > whether AMERICAN or AMANDA'S). > > > > > > To all of you whom seek the > > > trail, > > > > > > CLINT GARRETT(but I'm not > > him) > > > > > > P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time > > for > > > the good of all of us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles Date: 05 Jan 2002 19:08:57 -0700 Dog, In the book "Man Made Mobile" the artist Kuntz shows that exact rigging where the cinch is at an angle to just behind the front legs, when used with the crupper which apears in manny of millers sketches will work real well. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Ronald Schrotter <mail4dog@yahoo.com> >To: hist list <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles >Date: Sat, Jan 5, 2002, 8:56 AM > >The point that noone has mentioned about Center Fire >rigs is that when the saddle is properly positioned on >the horses back, the cinch goes around the largest >part of the horses barrel, so a little slide forward >or back and voila! the saddle is loose. rerigging to >a 3/4 or rimfire puts the cinch ahead of the barrel, >thus eliminating this problem. The rimfire setup also >would allow one to double rig, but I don't know how >period that is. I think that development came about >with cow work which sorta puts it out of our time >period. DOG > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! >http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: WAS:MtMan-List: a few understand..NOW: Stop It!!! Date: 05 Jan 2002 21:16:31 -0500 Hello Camp, I posted a message not too long ago with some outside observations about AMM brotherhood and impressions given bot pos. and neg. I usually try not to say anything to deride anyone, but Clint (since you prefer to go by that name)...for the love of Pete, stop your little game. It is stuff like that, that makes noone want to play with you! I am willing to bet if you just let it go and started asking some forthright questions and adding decent, helpful info. the timbre of the list toward you will change. That is just how I have seen it happen. Otherwise, I would humbly request that you withdraw from posting...or Mr. Rudy ban this person. I do not know about the rest of you, but I am tired of going through the postings like that. It just ain't fun no more. Sincerely (tired of this thread), C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <cd252@ptd.net> Subject: Re: WAS:MtMan-List: a few understand..NOW: Stop It!!! Date: 05 Jan 2002 23:33:11 -0500 Why do some of you let him get under your skin? let him rant....In the end the only one he will make look bad is himself. Peace to all, "Cold Brass" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 9:16 PM > Hello Camp, > > I posted a message not too long ago with some outside observations about AMM brotherhood and impressions given bot pos. and neg. > > I usually try not to say anything to deride anyone, but Clint (since you prefer to go by that name)...for the love of Pete, stop your little game. > It is stuff like that, that makes noone want to play with you! I am willing to bet if you just let it go and started asking some forthright questions and adding decent, helpful info. the timbre of the list toward you will change. That is just how I have seen it happen. > > Otherwise, I would humbly request that you withdraw from posting...or Mr. Rudy ban this person. > > I do not know about the rest of you, but I am tired of going through the postings like that. > > It just ain't fun no more. > > Sincerely (tired of this thread), > C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles Date: 06 Jan 2002 00:10:27 -0700 webbing sounds like a damn good idea for a surcingle. Its cheaper, less bulky and would likely breath a lot better. mine is made out of leather and is pretty near 7' or 8' long, and it used to slip back of the girth and gall the horses belly till I put a little loop on the bottom of my cinch. I could see a nice strip of cotton webbing with a roller buckle and 2 leather billets neatly stitched to the ends. I believe I'm going to have a go at one, thanks Clay! for mentioning that. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 12:20 PM > Jerry > > A surcingle (spelled numerous ways in the trade ledgers of the Rocky > Mountain fur trade) was a large belt 3 to 4 inches wide-Grimsley made them > from webbing or leather- that was strapped around the saddle and the > horse/mule to further secure the saddle. They passed trhough the saddle seat > and around the grith of the horse/mule. Based on the drawings and art work > of Alfred Jacob Miller the mountaineers used a surcingle to hold the > ephismore -a piece of buffalo robe used to cover the saddle-in place. If you > study the military horse equipment books done by Randy Steffen you will see > that a surcingle was used over the military saddles from the early dragoons > clear into late Indian wars period. > > Clay Landry > Moorhead MT > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:43 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles > > > > Clay, > > > > Good to hear from you. As far as the Jed Smith reference, Tom Nichols > made > > my saddle. He is a Brother here in California and that is what he told > me. > > I should see him in March at the Mission Doings and will specifically ask > > him for the reference at that time. I know it is not in his Journal, "The > > Southwest Expedition of Jedediah S. Smith, His Personal Account of the > > Journey to California, 1826-1827" or I missed it when I read it. > > > > As far as the sircingle, I have never used one because although I recall > > hearing the term, I can't remember where I saw it and don't remember > exactly > > what it is. Is it a type of breast collar or something different? > Actually > > after getting used to my saddle (about 4 years ago) I have not had any > > problem with it slipping anymore. That was more when I first started > riding > > it. I also use a couple of blankets and that seems to have fixed the > > problem with slipping. Tell me more about the sircingle, though. > > > > Thanks and Best Regards, > > > > Jerry Zaslow #1488 > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > ____ > > > > At 09:41 PM 01/03/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > >Jerry > > > > > >Have you ever tried to stabilize that center fire saddle with a > sircingle? A > > >sircingle was a very common item as it appears is just about all of the > > >inventories and trade goods lists that I have studied --- I wonder if > this > > >extra strap helped hold those light center fire saddles in position. > > > > > >Can you direct me to the source of the "description of a saddle Jed Smith > > >acquired in California in 1826 or 27" ?? I am always looking for first > > >person descriptions of fur trade saddles. > > > > > >Clay Landry > > >Moorhead MT > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> > > >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > > >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles > > > > > > > > >> Dog, > > >> > > >> I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle. It is 3/4 rigged > > >and > > >> was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in > > >> California in 1826 or 27. It would slip all over the place if I didn't > > >use > > >> an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath. All > of > > >my > > >> gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar. I > doubt > > >> that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the > saddle > > >> from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions. I ride in some > > >> really hilly country and it is a necessity. In the end, though, all > the > > >> breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a > good > > >seat. > > >> > > >> Best Regards, > > >> > > >> Jerry Zaslow #1488 > > >> > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ > _ > > >____ > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------- > > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: WAS:MtMan-List: a few understand..NOW: Stop It!!! Date: 06 Jan 2002 14:37:11 +0000 Amen. Let him rant. If you use your DELETE button, you don't have to deal with he/she/it. Don >From: <cd252@ptd.net> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: WAS:MtMan-List: a few understand..NOW: Stop It!!! >Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 23:33:11 -0500 > >Why do some of you let him get under your skin? let him rant....In the end >the only one he will make look bad is himself. > >Peace to all, >"Cold Brass" >----- Original Message ----- >From: <hikingonthru@cs.com> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 9:16 PM >Subject: WAS:MtMan-List: a few understand..NOW: Stop It!!! > > > > Hello Camp, > > > > I posted a message not too long ago with some outside observations about >AMM brotherhood and impressions given bot pos. and neg. > > > > I usually try not to say anything to deride anyone, but Clint (since you >prefer to go by that name)...for the love of Pete, stop your little game. > > It is stuff like that, that makes noone want to play with you! I am >willing to bet if you just let it go and started asking some forthright >questions and adding decent, helpful info. the timbre of the list toward >you >will change. That is just how I have seen it happen. > > > > Otherwise, I would humbly request that you withdraw from posting...or >Mr. >Rudy ban this person. > > > > I do not know about the rest of you, but I am tired of going through the >postings like that. > > > > It just ain't fun no more. > > > > Sincerely (tired of this thread), > > C.Kent > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@rangeweb.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles Date: 06 Jan 2002 08:58:25 -0700 Tom Cotton or hemp webbing would be period materials--based on what I have seen in the Grimsley ledgers. I have also encountered some Indian wars cavalry re-enactors using a surcingle made from webbing with-just as you described- a roller buckle, leather billet that tapered down to 2 inches to fit through the roller buckle. The buckle was also attached via a leather strap. Their webbing was 4 inch cotton duck and dyed blue. Evidently there are purveyors of period Indian wars cavalry tack that sell this item. Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 12:10 AM > webbing sounds like a damn good idea for a surcingle. Its cheaper, less > bulky and would likely breath a lot better. mine is made out of leather and > is pretty near 7' or 8' long, and it used to slip back of the girth and gall > the horses belly till I put a little loop on the bottom of my cinch. I > could see a nice strip of cotton webbing with a roller buckle and 2 leather > billets neatly stitched to the ends. I believe I'm going to have a go at > one, thanks Clay! for mentioning that. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@rangeweb.net> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles > > > > Jerry > > > > A surcingle (spelled numerous ways in the trade ledgers of the Rocky > > Mountain fur trade) was a large belt 3 to 4 inches wide-Grimsley made them > > from webbing or leather- that was strapped around the saddle and the > > horse/mule to further secure the saddle. They passed trhough the saddle > seat > > and around the grith of the horse/mule. Based on the drawings and art work > > of Alfred Jacob Miller the mountaineers used a surcingle to hold the > > ephismore -a piece of buffalo robe used to cover the saddle-in place. If > you > > study the military horse equipment books done by Randy Steffen you will > see > > that a surcingle was used over the military saddles from the early > dragoons > > clear into late Indian wars period. > > > > Clay Landry > > Moorhead MT > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> > > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:43 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles > > > > > > > Clay, > > > > > > Good to hear from you. As far as the Jed Smith reference, Tom Nichols > > made > > > my saddle. He is a Brother here in California and that is what he told > > me. > > > I should see him in March at the Mission Doings and will specifically > ask > > > him for the reference at that time. I know it is not in his Journal, > "The > > > Southwest Expedition of Jedediah S. Smith, His Personal Account of the > > > Journey to California, 1826-1827" or I missed it when I read it. > > > > > > As far as the sircingle, I have never used one because although I recall > > > hearing the term, I can't remember where I saw it and don't remember > > exactly > > > what it is. Is it a type of breast collar or something different? > > Actually > > > after getting used to my saddle (about 4 years ago) I have not had any > > > problem with it slipping anymore. That was more when I first started > > riding > > > it. I also use a couple of blankets and that seems to have fixed the > > > problem with slipping. Tell me more about the sircingle, though. > > > > > > Thanks and Best Regards, > > > > > > Jerry Zaslow #1488 > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > > ____ > > > > > > At 09:41 PM 01/03/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > > >Jerry > > > > > > > >Have you ever tried to stabilize that center fire saddle with a > > sircingle? A > > > >sircingle was a very common item as it appears is just about all of the > > > >inventories and trade goods lists that I have studied --- I wonder if > > this > > > >extra strap helped hold those light center fire saddles in position. > > > > > > > >Can you direct me to the source of the "description of a saddle Jed > Smith > > > >acquired in California in 1826 or 27" ?? I am always looking for first > > > >person descriptions of fur trade saddles. > > > > > > > >Clay Landry > > > >Moorhead MT > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> > > > >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > > > >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM > > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles > > > > > > > > > > > >> Dog, > > > >> > > > >> I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle. It is 3/4 > rigged > > > >and > > > >> was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in > > > >> California in 1826 or 27. It would slip all over the place if I > didn't > > > >use > > > >> an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath. > All > > of > > > >my > > > >> gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar. I > > doubt > > > >> that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the > > saddle > > > >> from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions. I ride in > some > > > >> really hilly country and it is a necessity. In the end, though, all > > the > > > >> breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a > > good > > > >seat. > > > >> > > > >> Best Regards, > > > >> > > > >> Jerry Zaslow #1488 > > > >> > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > >____ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------- > > > >> hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too! Date: 05 Jan 2002 20:40:36 -0500 CLINT--- SAVE YOUR KEYSTROKES---I PUSHED DELETE--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles Date: 06 Jan 2002 09:29:43 -0700 Clay/Tom I sold a surcingle made of Horse Hair about 5 years ago. I figured it was cavelry in oregin made around the 1870's about 28" lond with 5" iron rings in both ends. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@rangeweb.net> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles >Date: Sun, Jan 6, 2002, 8:58 AM > >Tom > >Cotton or hemp webbing would be period materials--based on what I have seen >in the Grimsley ledgers. I have also encountered some Indian wars cavalry >re-enactors using a surcingle made from webbing with-just as you described- >a roller buckle, leather billet that tapered down to 2 inches to fit through >the roller buckle. The buckle was also attached via a leather strap. Their >webbing was 4 inch cotton duck and dyed blue. Evidently there are purveyors >of period Indian wars cavalry tack that sell this item. > >Clay Landry >Moorhead MT >----- Original Message ----- >From: Thomas Ballstaedt <tphsb@earthlink.net> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 12:10 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles > > >> webbing sounds like a damn good idea for a surcingle. Its cheaper, less >> bulky and would likely breath a lot better. mine is made out of leather >and >> is pretty near 7' or 8' long, and it used to slip back of the girth and >gall >> the horses belly till I put a little loop on the bottom of my cinch. I >> could see a nice strip of cotton webbing with a roller buckle and 2 >leather >> billets neatly stitched to the ends. I believe I'm going to have a go at >> one, thanks Clay! for mentioning that. >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@rangeweb.net> >> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 12:20 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles >> >> >> > Jerry >> > >> > A surcingle (spelled numerous ways in the trade ledgers of the Rocky >> > Mountain fur trade) was a large belt 3 to 4 inches wide-Grimsley made >them >> > from webbing or leather- that was strapped around the saddle and the >> > horse/mule to further secure the saddle. They passed trhough the saddle >> seat >> > and around the grith of the horse/mule. Based on the drawings and art >work >> > of Alfred Jacob Miller the mountaineers used a surcingle to hold the >> > ephismore -a piece of buffalo robe used to cover the saddle-in place. If >> you >> > study the military horse equipment books done by Randy Steffen you will >> see >> > that a surcingle was used over the military saddles from the early >> dragoons >> > clear into late Indian wars period. >> > >> > Clay Landry >> > Moorhead MT >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> >> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >> > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:43 PM >> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles >> > >> > >> > > Clay, >> > > >> > > Good to hear from you. As far as the Jed Smith reference, Tom Nichols >> > made >> > > my saddle. He is a Brother here in California and that is what he >told >> > me. >> > > I should see him in March at the Mission Doings and will specifically >> ask >> > > him for the reference at that time. I know it is not in his Journal, >> "The >> > > Southwest Expedition of Jedediah S. Smith, His Personal Account of the >> > > Journey to California, 1826-1827" or I missed it when I read it. >> > > >> > > As far as the sircingle, I have never used one because although I >recall >> > > hearing the term, I can't remember where I saw it and don't remember >> > exactly >> > > what it is. Is it a type of breast collar or something different? >> > Actually >> > > after getting used to my saddle (about 4 years ago) I have not had any >> > > problem with it slipping anymore. That was more when I first started >> > riding >> > > it. I also use a couple of blankets and that seems to have fixed the >> > > problem with slipping. Tell me more about the sircingle, though. >> > > >> > > Thanks and Best Regards, >> > > >> > > Jerry Zaslow #1488 >> > > >> > >> >____________________________________________________________________________ >> > ____ >> > > >> > > At 09:41 PM 01/03/2002 -0700, you wrote: >> > > >Jerry >> > > > >> > > >Have you ever tried to stabilize that center fire saddle with a >> > sircingle? A >> > > >sircingle was a very common item as it appears is just about all of >the >> > > >inventories and trade goods lists that I have studied --- I wonder if >> > this >> > > >extra strap helped hold those light center fire saddles in position. >> > > > >> > > >Can you direct me to the source of the "description of a saddle Jed >> Smith >> > > >acquired in California in 1826 or 27" ?? I am always looking for >first >> > > >person descriptions of fur trade saddles. >> > > > >> > > >Clay Landry >> > > >Moorhead MT >> > > >----- Original Message ----- >> > > >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> >> > > >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >> > > >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM >> > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> Dog, >> > > >> >> > > >> I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle. It is 3/4 >> rigged >> > > >and >> > > >> was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in >> > > >> California in 1826 or 27. It would slip all over the place if I >> didn't >> > > >use >> > > >> an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath. >> All >> > of >> > > >my >> > > >> gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar. I >> > doubt >> > > >> that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the >> > saddle >> > > >> from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions. I ride in >> some >> > > >> really hilly country and it is a necessity. In the end, though, >all >> > the >> > > >> breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a >> > good >> > > >seat. >> > > >> >> > > >> Best Regards, >> > > >> >> > > >> Jerry Zaslow #1488 >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> >>___________________________________________________________________________ >> > _ >> > > >____ >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> ---------------------- >> > > >> hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >---------------------- >> > > >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ---------------------- >> > > hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" <ghickman9@attbi.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Footwear Date: 06 Jan 2002 10:12:29 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C1969A.A5ED3200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank, One of our AMM list members makes some excellent boots. These vendors = usually do not market their own products on the discussion groups, so we = will do it for them. I hope Bob doesn't mind, but try contacting Bob = Schmidt: bobschimidt@cybernet1.com, he may be able to help you out. Bead Shooter ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ikon@mindspring.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 5:47 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Footwear I was over at the AMM site reading a few of the supply logs for = various rendezvous. Mentioned in a few were boots. Do you know what = kind of boots these were? I have read many books and all mention mocs = that the mountain men and hunters wore. Did any of these gents wear = boots? If you could point me in the direction of some info., I would = greately appreciate it. Thanks, Frank V. Rago ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C1969A.A5ED3200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One of our AMM list members makes some = excellent=20 boots. These vendors usually do not market their own products on the = discussion=20 groups, so we will do it for them. I hope Bob doesn't mind, but try = contacting Bob Schmidt: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:bobschimidt@cybernet1.com">bobschimidt@cybernet1.com</A>, = he may be=20 able to help you out.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bead Shooter</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3DIkon@mindspring.com=20 href=3D"mailto:Ikon@mindspring.com">Ikon@mindspring.com</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 05, = 2002 5:47=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: = Footwear</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I was over at the AMM site reading a = few of the=20 supply logs for various rendezvous. Mentioned in a few were = boots. =20 Do you know what kind of boots these were? I have read many = books and=20 all mention mocs that the mountain men and hunters wore. Did any = of=20 these gents wear boots? If you could point me in the direction = of some=20 info., I would greately appreciate it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank V.=20 Rago</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C1969A.A5ED3200-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too! Date: 06 Jan 2002 12:22:20 -0500 List members; can`t you see whats going on ??? clint needs the attention we are giving him. He thrives on the unrest he has and is creating. WE ALL ARE FEEDING HIM HIS NEEDS. We all know people who are the happiest when stiring up a pile of stink. Read or delete his postings, don`t actknowledge his presesce. He will tire of not getting attention and leave or act as an adult. > CLINT--- > SAVE YOUR KEYSTROKES---I PUSHED DELETE--- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > & "The Arkansas Underhammers" > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Footwear Date: 06 Jan 2002 10:20:17 -0700 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3093157217_389151_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gene, I purchased a pair of Dragoon style boots from= www.cows.com They are made well and fit great and resonable price. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- Frank, One of our AMM list members makes some excellent boots. These vendors usually do not market their own products on the discussion groups, so we will do it for them. I hope Bob doesn't mind, but try contacting Bob Schmidt: bobschimidt@cybernet1.com <mailto:bobschimidt@cybernet1.com> , he may be able to help you out. Bead Shooter ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 5:47 PM I was over at the AMM site reading a few of the supply logs for various rendezvous. Mentioned in a few were boots. Do you know what kind of boots these were? I have read many books and all mention mocs that the mountain men and hunters wore. Did any of these gents wear boots? If you could point me in the direction of some info., I would greately appreciate it. Thanks, Frank V. Rago --MS_Mac_OE_3093157217_389151_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Footwear</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF"> Gene,<BR> I purchased a pair of Dragoon style boots from=3D www.cows.com<BR> They are made well and fit great and resonable price.<BR> YMOS<BR> Ole # 718<BR> ----------<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Frank,<BR> </FONT> <BR> <FONT SIZE=3D"2">One of our AMM list members makes some excellent boots. Thes= e vendors usually do not market their own products on the discussion groups,= so we will do it for them. I hope Bob doesn't mind, but try contacting Bob = Schmidt: <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>bobschimidt@cybernet1.com</U></FONT>= <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:bobschimidt@cybernet1.com</U></FONT>>= ; , he may be able to help you out.<BR> </FONT> <BR> <FONT SIZE=3D"2">Bead Shooter<BR> </FONT><BLOCKQUOTE>----- Original Message ----- <BR> <B>From:</B> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>Ikon@mindspring.com</U></FONT> <<F= ONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:Ikon@mindspring.com</U></FONT>> <BR> <B>To:</B> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</U></FONT>= <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com</U></FONT>= > <BR> <B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 05, 2002 5:47 PM<BR> <B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Footwear<BR> <BR> <FONT SIZE=3D"2">I was over at the AMM site reading a few of the supply logs = for various rendezvous. Mentioned in a few were boots. Do you kn= ow what kind of boots these were? I have read many books and all menti= on mocs that the mountain men and hunters wore. Did any of these gents= wear boots? If you could point me in the direction of some info., I w= ould greately appreciate it.<BR> </FONT> <BR> <FONT SIZE=3D"2">Thanks,<BR> </FONT> <BR> <FONT SIZE=3D"2">Frank V. Rago<BR> </FONT><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> </BODY> </HTML> --MS_Mac_OE_3093157217_389151_MIME_Part-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too! Date: 06 Jan 2002 10:22:20 -0700 John, Clint who? YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too! >Date: Sun, Jan 6, 2002, 10:22 AM > >List members; can`t you see whats going on ??? clint needs the attention we >are giving him. He thrives on the unrest he has and is creating. WE ALL ARE >FEEDING HIM HIS NEEDS. We all know people who are the happiest when stiring >up a pile of stink. Read or delete his postings, don`t actknowledge his >presesce. He will tire of not getting attention and leave or act as an >adult. > > >> CLINT--- >> SAVE YOUR KEYSTROKES---I PUSHED DELETE--- >> >> "HAWK" >> Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) >> & "The Arkansas Underhammers" >> 854 Glenfield Dr. >> Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 >> E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: >> http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce >> >> ________________________________________________________________ >> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too! Date: 06 Jan 2002 12:32:53 -0500 ! > John, > Clint who? > YMOS Ole` thank you I understand now. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too! Date: 06 Jan 2002 12:58:29 -0500 PErsonally, I am going to block him from my email server... then I don't have to even use the DELETE key... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark Date: 06 Jan 2002 13:10:05 -0700 Here's a short history of the Airgun The use of compressed air to propel a projectile is an old concept dating back to 250 BC, when a gentleman by the name of Ktesbias II of Egypt drew plans and wrote of a weapon that would operate on mere air pressure. Vague references to Ancient Greeks using a source of compressed air to throw rocks at their enemies or in the Renaissance Period - inventor Leonardo DaVinci having drawn plans for air powered weapons. Some historians have claimed that Guter of Nuremberg in 1430 designed a working model of an air rifle, (but never had it profectived). While others claim that Hans Lobsigner in 1560 produced a modified version of the Nuremberg hand held rifle that worked flawlessly and produced numbers of them in the late 1500's. France, Holland, Italy and several other small countries were producing airguns by the early 1600's and supplying arms for personal protection. The oldest existing airgun known is in the Royal Danish Arsenal in Copenhagen and dates from around 1580. Otto Von Guerick (1602-1686) established the principle of the vacuum with the Madgeburg spheres, designed and building an air rifle using this surge principle. His devise according to an article written by J.T.Haynes was actually a cannon arrangement that used a detachable air reservoir connected to the cannon tube. These wind chambers as they were called generated considerable force, capable of propelling a four pound lead ball 500 yards, and able to penetrate a three inch thick oak board. The airgun history actually began in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, these odd arms then equaled the power of the contemporary big-game and waterfowl weapon or military firearm. Many thought that the Lewis and Clark air rifle was an unusual item, when the real truth of the matter is this type of weapon had been around for 400 years before the exploration of the Northwest in 1804. Airguns were considered weapons of war, an early version would be the blow gun powered by one's own breath, and many disagree on when this early weapon came into being. In Europe many leaders would have anyone using a crossbow or airgun put to death, they didn't like the idea of a weapon being silent, in war or peace time. The first largest produced airgun was of the bellows chamber design, so named as implies, a spring loaded bellows was used for power with an expanding ratchet device housed in the butt stock that was cranked or keyed to rewind the spring. All bellows type guns were smooth bores according to James W. Harrom (Beeman Precision) and many shot tufted large diameter darts up to 50 caliber. They were all breech loading in design with the convential barrel opening at the breech and tilting downward for loading. Most of the bellows guns were of the long gun configuration, very few produced as pistols, most were very elaborate in design, hardware and finishes. The bellow gun production was short lived in the 1500's and mainly used as a target weapon, but resumed popularity in the mid to late 1700's, 200 years later that has puzzled historians world wide. According to Mr. Harrom most bellows guns date from 1740 to 1790 and seem to come from a small area bounded by Munich, Prague and Vienna. the bellows airgun had disappeared by the late 1800's, yet a few appear to have been made as late as the 1870's. Another design that appeared on the scene around 1600 was the spring piston gun, with several variations of springs used in their operation. From the zigzag shape to the helical coil spring (much like what is used today in modern spring piston airguns), again a ratchet device is used to pump or crank the spring into a compressed position when loaded, then released by a trigger sear or unlatching mechanism. By the first part of the 19th century the spring piston gun had established it's elf through out Europe as an indoor target weapon. By the mid 1800's this airgun had found it's way to the New World in the indoor shooting galleries becoming very popular as a great past-time sport. Usually found in .25 to .30 caliber, smooth bores intended to shoot darts. As time and weapons improved they were placed into a number of classes for competition, from small caliber - smooth bore to the larger caliber - rifled and so on. There were manufactures of weapons with names we all remember like Quackenbush, Daisy, Atlas, Markham/King and many others, some have survived, others are history. The pump pneumatic gun has been worked on by inventors since the early 1600's, with a number of mechanism designs that were so involved that the system developed slowly when compared to the other systems mentioned. The size ranged from .30 to .68 caliber bores - smooth and rifled, meaning that a large volume of compressed air was needed in a large reservoir to produce pressures from a few hundred pounds per square inch to several thousand pounds per square inch. Not only deadly at the muzzle but also at the reservoir area. This much pressure would fire a .40 caliber lead ball, 40 times without resupplying the reservoir and equal a 35 grains of FFG black powder per shot, able to penetrate 2 1/2" into a hardpine board. This was duplicated a few years ago with one of these early air rifles and found to produce each shot with 750 PSI, that's impressive, no wonder the L&C members wanted to have one of these along to show the Natives their "Spirit Gun". There are a number of other manufacturers from other parts of the world that have had success with the airgun, for example an Austrian firm using a design by Bartolemeno Girandoni in 1779 made weapons that ranged from .40 to .52 caliber in bore and capable of firing 15 to 20 rounds within a minute by a gravity feed magazine. "When you figure that a group of armed men, 500 in number could fire approximately 100,000 rounds per hour, meaning they would have 5 times the firepower of many troops with flintlocks muskets, at 100 yards this is amazing," says author J.T.Haynes. Now you can see why the airgun was condemned by Napoleon and other leaders being targeted by the Austrian Army in the late 1700's, even the Church of Rome condemned the Austrian rifle. "Poachers, assassins and other undesirables were portrayed", Mr. Haynes says, "as the likely users of these weapons, tools of the Devil." For power of these guns, Louis VII Landgrave of Hesse (1691-1768) used a big bore air rifle to kill 500 lb. stag elk at ranges of 150 to 160 paces in 1746-1748. On our continent the journals of Lewis and Clark expedition (1804-1806) show their big bore pneumatic rifle, made in Philadelphia by Jacob Kunz and Issaih Lukens, capable of 40 full power shots at 900 PSI with a 1,000 pump strokes for raised pressure. This .31 caliber rifle had a 34" octagon barrel of brass with 17 groove rifling and needed no patching as the ball to barrel rifling was so close with the shallow rifling, making a snug fit. They used it to show the Indians of their power in taking small game up to deer in size, this had to astonish the onlookers. As late as the 1890's we have seen in this country pneumatic weapons disguised as walking sticks and canes ranging from .40-.50 in caliber with 500-750 FPS velocities capable of killing a man at 40-50 yards. This information came from many resources: J.T.Haynes, "Airguns Throughout History", C.D.Hamilton, "Silent Killers", James W. Harrom, "History of Air Rifles", Permission from "Beeman Precision Airgun Guide". Thank You for your time. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 8:05 AM > sure were air guns with lewis and clark and they were fairly large bore > we had a discussion on this same subject about a year and a half > ago---and all the info on them came out---just went thru my old messages > on this computer dont have it here but i have pictures of them > somewhere---that someone sent me---I wanter to build one at one time but > due to work load and time have not accomplished it there are several guys > on this list that have the info if they are still around---if they dont > post it i will try to recover the info and send it to you---look first in > the inventory of the discovery trip---believe it will give you a listing > there--- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > & "The Arkansas Underhammers" > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > > On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:36:24 -0600 "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> > writes: > > A friend was saying he read that there was some kind of compressed > > air gun > > with Lewis & Clark, a gun that was "pumped up" by hand and fired a > > lead > > ball. > > > > I never heard this. Any of you historical experts run across this? > > > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re:a few understand, most do not care too! Date: 06 Jan 2002 16:27:16 -0700 Paul W Jones wrote: > > > Some say he is from Dillon, Mt. I have been told that his last name is or > might be Soule, but that is still subject to some further digging. Of all the lies I have heard he/she/it claim to, being from Montana has got to be at the top of the list. Surely the good men in Montana would never allow for such bad manners. I believe any man who spoke as badly of those men's wives and mothers as he has of ours would not be capable of typing would he? It would be a pleasure to get on the ground with him. Wynn Ormond Sorry I will go back to ingoring him. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too! Date: 06 Jan 2002 17:55:41 -0600 Same here. This guy's a typical troll. They thrive on the "attention" they get from their annoying posts. I just added him to my auto-delete rules, and I won't have ot worry about him. Todd Missouri Territory At 12:58 PM 1/6/02 -0500, you wrote: >PErsonally, I am going to block him from my email server... then I don't >have to even use the DELETE key... > >Ad Miller >Alderson, WV > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Footwear/Saddles Date: 06 Jan 2002 17:38:13 -0700 At 10:12 AM 1/6/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Frank, > >One of our AMM list members makes some excellent boots. These vendors usually do not market their own products on the discussion groups, so we will do it for them. I hope Bob doesn't mind, but try contacting Bob Schmidt: bobschimidt@cybernet1.com, he may be able to help you out. > >Bead Shooter I'd also like to add that Bob makes some very fine saddles that are period correct and comfortable to ride. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles Date: 06 Jan 2002 18:15:09 -0700 Ole; those dimensions you gave for a surcingle sound alot like a horse hair cinch. to bad you sold it. those are pricey to get a hold of. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 9:29 AM > Clay/Tom > I sold a surcingle made of Horse Hair about 5 years ago. I figured it was > cavelry in oregin made around the 1870's about 28" lond with 5" iron rings > in both ends. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@rangeweb.net> > >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles > >Date: Sun, Jan 6, 2002, 8:58 AM > > > > >Tom > > > >Cotton or hemp webbing would be period materials--based on what I have seen > >in the Grimsley ledgers. I have also encountered some Indian wars cavalry > >re-enactors using a surcingle made from webbing with-just as you described- > >a roller buckle, leather billet that tapered down to 2 inches to fit through > >the roller buckle. The buckle was also attached via a leather strap. Their > >webbing was 4 inch cotton duck and dyed blue. Evidently there are purveyors > >of period Indian wars cavalry tack that sell this item. > > > >Clay Landry > >Moorhead MT > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Thomas Ballstaedt <tphsb@earthlink.net> > >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > >Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 12:10 AM > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles > > > > > >> webbing sounds like a damn good idea for a surcingle. Its cheaper, less > >> bulky and would likely breath a lot better. mine is made out of leather > >and > >> is pretty near 7' or 8' long, and it used to slip back of the girth and > >gall > >> the horses belly till I put a little loop on the bottom of my cinch. I > >> could see a nice strip of cotton webbing with a roller buckle and 2 > >leather > >> billets neatly stitched to the ends. I believe I'm going to have a go at > >> one, thanks Clay! for mentioning that. > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@rangeweb.net> > >> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > >> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 12:20 PM > >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles > >> > >> > >> > Jerry > >> > > >> > A surcingle (spelled numerous ways in the trade ledgers of the Rocky > >> > Mountain fur trade) was a large belt 3 to 4 inches wide-Grimsley made > >them > >> > from webbing or leather- that was strapped around the saddle and the > >> > horse/mule to further secure the saddle. They passed trhough the saddle > >> seat > >> > and around the grith of the horse/mule. Based on the drawings and art > >work > >> > of Alfred Jacob Miller the mountaineers used a surcingle to hold the > >> > ephismore -a piece of buffalo robe used to cover the saddle-in place. If > >> you > >> > study the military horse equipment books done by Randy Steffen you will > >> see > >> > that a surcingle was used over the military saddles from the early > >> dragoons > >> > clear into late Indian wars period. > >> > > >> > Clay Landry > >> > Moorhead MT > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> > >> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > >> > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:43 PM > >> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles > >> > > >> > > >> > > Clay, > >> > > > >> > > Good to hear from you. As far as the Jed Smith reference, Tom Nichols > >> > made > >> > > my saddle. He is a Brother here in California and that is what he > >told > >> > me. > >> > > I should see him in March at the Mission Doings and will specifically > >> ask > >> > > him for the reference at that time. I know it is not in his Journal, > >> "The > >> > > Southwest Expedition of Jedediah S. Smith, His Personal Account of the > >> > > Journey to California, 1826-1827" or I missed it when I read it. > >> > > > >> > > As far as the sircingle, I have never used one because although I > >recall > >> > > hearing the term, I can't remember where I saw it and don't remember > >> > exactly > >> > > what it is. Is it a type of breast collar or something different? > >> > Actually > >> > > after getting used to my saddle (about 4 years ago) I have not had any > >> > > problem with it slipping anymore. That was more when I first started > >> > riding > >> > > it. I also use a couple of blankets and that seems to have fixed the > >> > > problem with slipping. Tell me more about the sircingle, though. > >> > > > >> > > Thanks and Best Regards, > >> > > > >> > > Jerry Zaslow #1488 > >> > > > >> > > >> > >___________________________________________________________________________ _ > >> > ____ > >> > > > >> > > At 09:41 PM 01/03/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >> > > >Jerry > >> > > > > >> > > >Have you ever tried to stabilize that center fire saddle with a > >> > sircingle? A > >> > > >sircingle was a very common item as it appears is just about all of > >the > >> > > >inventories and trade goods lists that I have studied --- I wonder if > >> > this > >> > > >extra strap helped hold those light center fire saddles in position. > >> > > > > >> > > >Can you direct me to the source of the "description of a saddle Jed > >> Smith > >> > > >acquired in California in 1826 or 27" ?? I am always looking for > >first > >> > > >person descriptions of fur trade saddles. > >> > > > > >> > > >Clay Landry > >> > > >Moorhead MT > >> > > >----- Original Message ----- > >> > > >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> > >> > > >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > >> > > >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM > >> > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> Dog, > >> > > >> > >> > > >> I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle. It is 3/4 > >> rigged > >> > > >and > >> > > >> was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in > >> > > >> California in 1826 or 27. It would slip all over the place if I > >> didn't > >> > > >use > >> > > >> an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath. > >> All > >> > of > >> > > >my > >> > > >> gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar. I > >> > doubt > >> > > >> that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the > >> > saddle > >> > > >> from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions. I ride in > >> some > >> > > >> really hilly country and it is a necessity. In the end, though, > >all > >> > the > >> > > >> breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a > >> > good > >> > > >seat. > >> > > >> > >> > > >> Best Regards, > >> > > >> > >> > > >> Jerry Zaslow #1488 > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > > >> > >>__________________________________________________________________________ _ > >> > _ > >> > > >____ > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> ---------------------- > >> > > >> hist_text list info: > >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >---------------------- > >> > > >hist_text list info: > >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ---------------------- > >> > > hist_text list info: > >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ---------------------- > >> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles Date: 06 Jan 2002 19:39:38 -0700 Tom, There use to be a lady in SLC that would make them if you gave her a horse hair rope for material. Ole ---------- >From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles >Date: Sun, Jan 6, 2002, 6:15 PM > >Ole; > those dimensions you gave for a surcingle sound alot like a horse hair >cinch. to bad you sold it. those are pricey to get a hold of. >Tom >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 9:29 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles > > >> Clay/Tom >> I sold a surcingle made of Horse Hair about 5 years ago. I figured it was >> cavelry in oregin made around the 1870's about 28" lond with 5" iron rings >> in both ends. >> YMOS >> Ole # 718 >> ---------- >> >From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@rangeweb.net> >> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles >> >Date: Sun, Jan 6, 2002, 8:58 AM >> > >> >> >Tom >> > >> >Cotton or hemp webbing would be period materials--based on what I have >seen >> >in the Grimsley ledgers. I have also encountered some Indian wars cavalry >> >re-enactors using a surcingle made from webbing with-just as you >described- >> >a roller buckle, leather billet that tapered down to 2 inches to fit >through >> >the roller buckle. The buckle was also attached via a leather strap. >Their >> >webbing was 4 inch cotton duck and dyed blue. Evidently there are >purveyors >> >of period Indian wars cavalry tack that sell this item. >> > >> >Clay Landry >> >Moorhead MT >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: Thomas Ballstaedt <tphsb@earthlink.net> >> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >> >Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 12:10 AM >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles >> > >> > >> >> webbing sounds like a damn good idea for a surcingle. Its cheaper, >less >> >> bulky and would likely breath a lot better. mine is made out of >leather >> >and >> >> is pretty near 7' or 8' long, and it used to slip back of the girth and >> >gall >> >> the horses belly till I put a little loop on the bottom of my cinch. I >> >> could see a nice strip of cotton webbing with a roller buckle and 2 >> >leather >> >> billets neatly stitched to the ends. I believe I'm going to have a go >at >> >> one, thanks Clay! for mentioning that. >> >> Tom >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@rangeweb.net> >> >> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >> >> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 12:20 PM >> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles >> >> >> >> >> >> > Jerry >> >> > >> >> > A surcingle (spelled numerous ways in the trade ledgers of the Rocky >> >> > Mountain fur trade) was a large belt 3 to 4 inches wide-Grimsley made >> >them >> >> > from webbing or leather- that was strapped around the saddle and the >> >> > horse/mule to further secure the saddle. They passed trhough the >saddle >> >> seat >> >> > and around the grith of the horse/mule. Based on the drawings and art >> >work >> >> > of Alfred Jacob Miller the mountaineers used a surcingle to hold the >> >> > ephismore -a piece of buffalo robe used to cover the saddle-in place. >If >> >> you >> >> > study the military horse equipment books done by Randy Steffen you >will >> >> see >> >> > that a surcingle was used over the military saddles from the early >> >> dragoons >> >> > clear into late Indian wars period. >> >> > >> >> > Clay Landry >> >> > Moorhead MT >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> >> >> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >> >> > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:43 PM >> >> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > Clay, >> >> > > >> >> > > Good to hear from you. As far as the Jed Smith reference, Tom >Nichols >> >> > made >> >> > > my saddle. He is a Brother here in California and that is what he >> >told >> >> > me. >> >> > > I should see him in March at the Mission Doings and will >specifically >> >> ask >> >> > > him for the reference at that time. I know it is not in his >Journal, >> >> "The >> >> > > Southwest Expedition of Jedediah S. Smith, His Personal Account of >the >> >> > > Journey to California, 1826-1827" or I missed it when I read it. >> >> > > >> >> > > As far as the sircingle, I have never used one because although I >> >recall >> >> > > hearing the term, I can't remember where I saw it and don't >remember >> >> > exactly >> >> > > what it is. Is it a type of breast collar or something different? >> >> > Actually >> >> > > after getting used to my saddle (about 4 years ago) I have not had >any >> >> > > problem with it slipping anymore. That was more when I first >started >> >> > riding >> >> > > it. I also use a couple of blankets and that seems to have fixed >the >> >> > > problem with slipping. Tell me more about the sircingle, though. >> >> > > >> >> > > Thanks and Best Regards, >> >> > > >> >> > > Jerry Zaslow #1488 >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>___________________________________________________________________________ >_ >> >> > ____ >> >> > > >> >> > > At 09:41 PM 01/03/2002 -0700, you wrote: >> >> > > >Jerry >> >> > > > >> >> > > >Have you ever tried to stabilize that center fire saddle with a >> >> > sircingle? A >> >> > > >sircingle was a very common item as it appears is just about all >of >> >the >> >> > > >inventories and trade goods lists that I have studied --- I wonder >if >> >> > this >> >> > > >extra strap helped hold those light center fire saddles in >position. >> >> > > > >> >> > > >Can you direct me to the source of the "description of a saddle >Jed >> >> Smith >> >> > > >acquired in California in 1826 or 27" ?? I am always looking for >> >first >> >> > > >person descriptions of fur trade saddles. >> >> > > > >> >> > > >Clay Landry >> >> > > >Moorhead MT >> >> > > >----- Original Message ----- >> >> > > >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> >> >> > > >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >> >> > > >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM >> >> > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> Dog, >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle. It is 3/4 >> >> rigged >> >> > > >and >> >> > > >> was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired >in >> >> > > >> California in 1826 or 27. It would slip all over the place if I >> >> didn't >> >> > > >use >> >> > > >> an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin >underneath. >> >> All >> >> > of >> >> > > >my >> >> > > >> gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar. >I >> >> > doubt >> >> > > >> that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept >the >> >> > saddle >> >> > > >> from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions. I ride >in >> >> some >> >> > > >> really hilly country and it is a necessity. In the end, though, >> >all >> >> > the >> >> > > >> breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't >have a >> >> > good >> >> > > >seat. >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> Best Regards, >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> Jerry Zaslow #1488 >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>__________________________________________________________________________ >_ >> >> > _ >> >> > > >____ >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> ---------------------- >> >> > > >> hist_text list info: >> >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >---------------------- >> >> > > >hist_text list info: >> >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > ---------------------- >> >> > > hist_text list info: >> >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ---------------------- >> >> > hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: "The Great Buffallo Shoot" Date: 06 Jan 2002 22:05:30 EST Klahowya boys, Figuring the baby Blacktail wouldn't feed my tribe fer a week, let alone a winter, Kamosuk Poo (Gene Hickman) and I hooked up a bit North of the National Bison Range in Montana, and shot a couple bulls with our muzzle loaders. Mine was about a 700lb yearling that went under with one .62cal round ball to the heart, from my Tulle , and Genes fell with two, double lung shots, from his 1803 Harpers Ferry! The jpg of my critter is a bit large, but I will reduce the size when I have more time. I've got to flesh and salt the hide in the morning, and then it's off to Wes Housler to have it brain tanned.....it'll make a beautiful robe. More details of the "Great Buffalo Shoot" are to follow.... Magpie <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/swcushing/bpbuff.jpg">bpbuff.jpg</A> http://members.aol.com/swcushing/bpbuff.jpg ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "The Great Buffallo Shoot" Date: 06 Jan 2002 20:40:00 -0800 Magpie, Congratulations. I knew if you kept shooting you'd hit something big. <G> BTW, I could open the second link fine but the first one just won't open. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:05 PM > Klahowya boys, > > Figuring the baby Blacktail wouldn't feed my tribe fer a week, let alone a > winter, Kamosuk Poo (Gene Hickman) and I hooked up a bit North of the > National Bison Range in Montana, and shot a couple bulls with our muzzle > loaders. Mine was about a 700lb yearling that went under with one .62cal > round ball to the heart, from my Tulle , and Genes fell with two, double lung > shots, from his 1803 Harpers Ferry! > > The jpg of my critter is a bit large, but I will reduce the size when I have > more time. I've got to flesh and salt the hide in the morning, and then it's > off to Wes Housler to have it brain tanned.....it'll make a beautiful robe. > > More details of the "Great Buffalo Shoot" are to follow.... > Magpie > > <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/swcushing/bpbuff.jpg">bpbuff.jpg</A> > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/bpbuff.jpg > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20"The=20Great=20Buffallo=20Shoot"?= Date: 07 Jan 2002 00:00:17 EST In a message dated 1/6/02 8:32:44 PM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << Congratulations. I knew if you kept shooting you'd hit something big. <G> BTW, I could open the second link fine but the first one just won't open. Capt. Lahti' >> Thanks Capt.....<G> The heart on them critters are a pretty big target, eve= n=20 at 30 yards, off a knee.=20 Interesting the first "hypertext" wouldn't work for you. It should have come= =20 up as a blue text, that I get by dragging the "favorite places icon" on to=20 the email.....then just double click, and the page comes up....works for som= e. You boys gonna camp over here for the Gresham show? Think I might have a hum= p=20 steak or two around... actually 3-4 hundred pounds of prime buffalo. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20"The=20Great=20Buffallo=20Shoot"?= Date: 06 Jan 2002 22:14:50 -0700 Steve, Sure would like a bit o' buff jerk at the National in May to celebrate! Teton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "The Great Buffallo Shoot" Date: 07 Jan 2002 08:49:27 -0800 Thanks Capt.....<G> The heart on them critters are a pretty big target, even at 30 yards, off a knee. Magpie, You done fin son. I knew that sneak'in stuff I taught you would work out some day. Got mighty close for that fine shot. I'm not sure but I think it's the " marks and such that mess it up for me. If I clear them and some other punctuation marks away then I can open it but it is the same picture as the first. Our plan for now is to come to your place Friday night like last year. Clawpapa has pretty much made up his mind to come, I think Kevan Bowen is coming and probably Duncanson but I haven't heard from anyone else and Taos hasn't made a firm commitment yet. I got to come to the show for no other reason than Ric Tabor is bringing me a big sheet of copper to play with. Nuff of this on line, we'll make our plans off line cause I got to send you our Mid Winter Report so's you know what we plan for the year. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "The Great Buffallo Shoot" Date: 07 Jan 2002 12:17:10 EST In a message dated 1/6/02 10:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, SWcushing@aol.com writes: << Mine was about a 700lb yearling that went under with one .62cal round ball to the heart, from my Tulle >> Congratulations to you and GENE. Makes me feel all the better about deciding on a Tulle in the same caliber as you have (may I ask where you got yours?) Also, GENE!!! It would've only taken ONE Atl-atl dart!!! I hear those cane/bamboo darts fly pretty well!!! <BG> Course, you got to lull them into a sleep with a bamboo flute! Congrats on the buff kills!!! C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdearing <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: restoring lanolin to wool Date: 07 Jan 2002 12:35:57 -0600 At 10:12 AM 12/26/01 -0800, you wrote: >---> <The blankets used by these travellers of the > > > wilderness are of a peculiar kind, very thick and > > > almost impervious to water> > > > >in a conversation the other day with a member of > >our brigade, it came up that the wool blankets of that > >time had lanolin rich in there fibers. something > >pretty much removed in modern processing. this he > >said included the huds bay and whitney. he aluded to > >that one can add back the lanolin to bring back the > >watersheding effect. how one would do this i do not > >know at the moment. Sorry it took so long to respond, as I have been away for too long. I received this e-mail a while back with the information on reconditioning wool blankets. Be aware that I have not tried this, but it should work. The instructions are as follows; I have had success restoring lanolin to my woolen articles. At a health food outlet, I purchased some liquid castille soap (a pure non detergent type of soap made from vegetable oil), and some liquid lanolin. (They also had a paste form of lanolin, which I have also tried, with success.) I don't remember the exact formula which I used, but it was part HOT water, part lanolin, in a quart jar, covered. Shake. This warms up the lanolin and makes it thinner (it was pretty thick). Then I added a portion of the castille soap. Shake. By now it was a frothy mixture like a thin milk shake. Pour mixture into washing machine filled with warm water. Stir around. Add woolen articles. Wash on GENTLE cycle. Lay out cleaned and lanolin restored woolen articles on towels to dry. Worked great! If anyone does decide to try this out, let everyone know how it works. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: restoring lanolin to wool Date: 07 Jan 2002 20:39:44 -0600 Ho the list, In his great book "Camping and Woodcraft" Horace Kephart addressed the process of restoring lanolin to wool....both in clothes and in blankets. He used anhydrous lanolin (as opposed to cosmetic lanolin which has a higher water content) which he dissolved in benzene or gasoline. Benzene is no longer available since it is a rather vigorous carcinogen, but gasoline is still available...at least in Texas. For a hot, rainy climate he used 4 ounces of lanolin to a gallon of gasoline, for average conditions in the temperate zone he used 3 ounces of lanolin, for cold climates or winter use exclusively he used 2 ounces to the gallon (stating that cold has a tendency to stiffen cloth that had been treated with a strong solution) He goes on to state that 3 ounces per gallon is best for blankets. To use "simply make a solution of anhydrous lanolin in benzene or gasoline, soak the garment in it about three minutes, wring out gently, stretch to shape, and hang up to dry, shifting position of garment frequently, until nearly dry, so that the lanolin will be evenly distributed" Kephart was a master camper and I have used many of his tips to good advantage. However, this little trick has a vast potential for disaster so if you decide to try it BE CAREFUL. Furthermore, I would strongly suggest that you not do this at all if She Who Must Be Obeyed has even a remote chance of hearing about it. You would enter family lore in the most permanent way imaginable. good luck Lanney Ratcliff ps: No Smoking ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 12:35 PM > At 10:12 AM 12/26/01 -0800, you wrote: > > >---> <The blankets used by these travellers of the > > > > wilderness are of a peculiar kind, very thick and > > > > almost impervious to water> > > > > > > >in a conversation the other day with a member of > > >our brigade, it came up that the wool blankets of that > > >time had lanolin rich in there fibers. something > > >pretty much removed in modern processing. this he > > >said included the huds bay and whitney. he aluded to > > >that one can add back the lanolin to bring back the > > >watersheding effect. how one would do this i do not > > >know at the moment. > > > Sorry it took so long to respond, as I have been away for too long. > > I received this e-mail a while back with the information on > reconditioning wool blankets. Be aware that I have not tried this, > but it should work. The instructions are as follows; > > I have had success restoring lanolin to my woolen articles. > At a health food outlet, I purchased some liquid castille soap (a pure non > detergent type of soap made from vegetable oil), and some liquid lanolin. > (They also had a paste form of lanolin, which I have also tried, with > success.) > > I don't remember the exact formula which I used, but it was part HOT water, > part lanolin, in a quart jar, covered. Shake. This warms up the lanolin and > makes it thinner (it was pretty thick). Then I added a portion of the castille > soap. Shake. By now it was a frothy mixture like a thin milk shake. > > Pour mixture into washing machine filled with warm water. Stir around. > Add woolen articles. Wash on GENTLE cycle. Lay out cleaned and lanolin > restored woolen articles on towels to dry. Worked great! > > If anyone does decide to try this out, let everyone know how it works. > J.D. > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Tulle/buffalo gun Date: 08 Jan 2002 12:33:48 EST Someone asked what kinda gun I shot the buffalo with. I used an old CenterMark Tulle I bought as a kit and put together about 20 years ago. My most favorite smooth bore with no rear site. (onlyest smoothbore, come to think of it...<G>) The charge was 90 grains of 2f, covered with a card and fiber wad, and then a .600 patched round ball. At about 30 yards broadside, I had the option of a head shot (in the ear), the lungs, or heart. I took the heart, and held a bit high so if I missed, I'd at least hit a lung...I didn't miss. The young bull nearly went down at the impact, and only slowly walked about 20 yards before collapsing. Waaaaaugh! Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tulle/buffalo/Deer all purpose gun Date: 08 Jan 2002 13:31:40 EST <<I used an old CenterMark Tulle I bought as a kit and put together about 20 years ago. My most favorite smooth bore>> Mine too, I got my Tulle from Center Mark about 2 years (two deer seasons)ago. And both seasons it has put a deer in the freezer both years. I got a mine with a rear sight (which can be documented) due to my poor old eyes. Both deer I put down with 75 grains of 3F at under 50 yards. Paul at Center Mark makes a nice, working hunting gun. I told him I wanted a hunting gun with plain iron fittings and a good strong stock (not all curly pretty) and I got a straight shooting, fast action, handsome tool that makes meat with shot or ball. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tulle/buffalo/Deer all purpose gun Date: 08 Jan 2002 16:44:10 EST How, when and/or where does one get a hold of this "Centermark Company"? Do they have a website, or at least a mailing address? Pilgrim questions all, I know. Wade "Sleeps loudly" Smith Boise, Id ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "The Great Buffallo Shoot" Date: 08 Jan 2002 16:51:30 EST Congrats Magpie. That sure is some pretty country you took it in too. Haven't been up there in about 15 yrs. Brings back fond memories of shining times. Wade "Sleeps loudly" Smith Boise ID ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: CenterMark Date: 08 Jan 2002 18:15:42 EST Wade, Here's the contact info I got off the MLML web site: CenterMark PO Box 4066 Parnassus Station New Kensington, Pa. 15068 412-335-1319 Replica fusil gun kits As a side note, I too have one of their fusils, Type D with Bayonet (Grenadier) and really enjoy it. Great kit that finishes up into a reliable friend. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Date: 08 Jan 2002 21:33:43 EST In a message dated 1/8/02 1:33:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, CTOAKES@aol.com writes: << And both seasons it has put a deer in the freezer both years. I got a mine with a rear sight (which can be documented) >> Could you send me that particular document by chance? I'd like to have it for my Tulle. There was a tactical at Ft. Toulouse that has apparently been juried as of now by one or two guys so I will need it if I am to use that gun!!! <BG> -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CenterMark Date: 09 Jan 2002 03:13:26 EST Thanks Barney, I always appreciate the response to my questions by this group. Wade ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Date: 09 Jan 2002 12:38:36 +0000 C. Kent, There were no rear sights put on Tulle guns at the factory. There is only one existing Tulle French gun that I know of that has a rear sight on it. That Tulle gun has a English Type G rearsight on it. The owner evidently had this installed after it was purchased long after it left the factory at Tulle, France. As long as you put a period sight on your Tulle, it will be authentic to the period, just like a person buying a Tulle 250 yrs. ago may have opted for a rear sight on their gun. There is no evidence that the French Tulle gun ever came from the factory with a rear sight on it, especially English rear sights. Respectfully submitted, Don Secondine >From: HikingOnThru@cs.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle >Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:33:43 EST > >In a message dated 1/8/02 1:33:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, CTOAKES@aol.com >writes: > ><< And both seasons it has put a deer in the freezer both years. I got a >mine with a rear sight (which can be documented) >> >Could you send me that particular document by chance? I'd like to have it >for my Tulle. >There was a tactical at Ft. Toulouse that has apparently been juried as of >now by one or two guys so I will need it if I am to use that gun!!! <BG> > >-C.Kent > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Date: 09 Jan 2002 07:54:34 EST In a message dated 1/8/02 6:35:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: << Could you send me that particular document by chance? I'd like to have it for my Tulle. >> Try Book of Buckskinning IV -- pages 111, 115, & 120 of the article by Charles Hanson. He shows pictures of smooth bores from Holland, France, England, & a "rifle-mounted fusil" by Henry Deringer from about 1812. Those "fly specks" on the rear portion of the barrels where sights are supposed to be are just that -- sights. Also see the French Model 1766 carbine -- item 5 on page 65 of George Neumann & Frank Kravic's "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution". Had this argument before. Seems rear sights on smooth bores wasn't all that uncommon. The Northwest trade gun doesn't seem to have ever been equipped with rear sights, but they show up on fowlers, fusils, & military smooth bores. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CenterMark Date: 09 Jan 2002 08:35:07 EST <<Wade, Here's the contact info I got off the MLML web site: CenterMark PO Box 4066 Parnassus Station New Kensington, Pa. 15068 412-335-1319 Replica fusil gun kits>> That is an old address, Paul bought the company a few years back and runs it on his farm in Fredonia NY. I do not have the address and number handy but I will get it and post it when I get it this after noon. Y.M.O.S. C.T.Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle & Center Mark Address Date: 09 Jan 2002 08:50:55 EST If your persona is strict military and you are serving in a French Military unit you would not have a Tulle issued to you from his majisties armory with a rear sight. All of the existing Tulles and Fowlers that have rear sights were converted military to civilian (I'm civilian Ranger Militia) or in the case of the quote unquote "American Fowler" were built for civilians. So in a strict interpretation my Tulle is no longer a Military Tulle, it was 'captured in the early part of the war and converted to my civilian needs, the barrel was shortened due to damage caused to the muzzle by one of those stupid french plug bayonents, and I needed to hunt meat for my family so I had the gun smith also add the rear sight to improve hunting". At least that is the persona of my favorite gun named #10.If you need at least one and you can not get to the Smithsonian collection, Neumann's book Battle Weapoans of the American Revolution shows smoothbores and fowlers with rear sights. Mine looks a lot like page 162. By the way here is the info for CenterMark Inc., P.O. Box 575, Fredonia NY 14063, 716-679-0276, Owner is Paul and I will misspell his last name but it is phonetically "See Burt". Paul is great to deal with and as he is a working farmer this is the time of year when he has time to work on your gun. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes <<In a message dated Tue, 8 Jan 2002 9:35:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: > In a message dated 1/8/02 1:33:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, CTOAKES@aol.com > writes: > > << And both seasons it has put a deer in the freezer both years. I got a > mine with a rear sight (which can be documented) >> > Could you send me that particular document by chance? I'd like to have it > for my Tulle. > There was a tactical at Ft. Toulouse that has apparently been juried as of > now by one or two guys so I will need it if I am to use that gun!!! <BG> > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Date: 09 Jan 2002 06:54:07 -0700 > > << Could you send me that particular document by chance? I'd like to have it > for my Tulle. >> > > Try Book of Buckskinning IV -- pages 111, 115, & 120 of the article by > Charles Hanson. He shows pictures of smooth bores from Holland, France, > England, & a "rifle-mounted fusil" by Henry Deringer from about 1812. Those > "fly specks" on the rear portion of the barrels where sights are supposed to > be are just that -- sights. Also see the French Model 1766 carbine -- item 5 > on page 65 of George Neumann & Frank Kravic's "Collector's Illustrated > Encyclopedia of the American Revolution". Had this argument before. Seems > rear sights on smooth bores wasn't all that uncommon. The Northwest trade > gun doesn't seem to have ever been equipped with rear sights, but they show > up on fowlers, fusils, & military smooth bores. > > NM > Factory installed rear sights are very uncommon, I worked with Charley Hanson on an article on "Trade Guns", "Northwest Guns", "Farmer Guns" (Tryon's name for the same), looked at many government contracts and supply lists that he had at hand, only found a few that requested rear sights (special order by a factor usually) but on Wilson Chief's guns they appeared more than any other manufacturer - Charley never figured that one out ! A large percentage of the guns at the Museum of the Fur Trade and what Curly G. and a few others have with rear sights where added after being delivered. I have three original trade guns, one is an early style sight that is soldered on the barrel flat, while another is just a tab of metal turned up from the barrel flat with a small notch filed in for sighting, the third is with no sight, all after market rear sights. I have seen originals with "fly speck" rear sight that where no more than center punch marks lined up side by side, Hanson told me these marks where probably added by a blacksmith, was it at the factory or at the settlement after delivery ? When I go to collector, gun or antique gun shows I'm always looking for this type weapon, usually the ones one will find have had poor repair work or in such bad shape that I pass on buying them. This thing about rear sights has been going on for 50 years and will probably never be settled. It's no different than the "copper tin lined canteen" issue that one of the National group's said wasn't available until the Civil War - I contacted a Dr. V.L.Bigsby at Valley Forge Historical Society in PA and he furnished photos of pieces of one found at that sight. So what we think is correct today can change with good research and good documentation tomorrow. Right now I'm trying to come to terms with a gentleman on a Wilson Chief's gun that is about NRA 85%, untouched with a factory installed rear sight that is approx. 3/16 " in height, shallow sight notch, sweated onto the barrel (no dovetailed notch like folks today do), uncut 42" barrel, another example of a rear factory sight, and according to the documentation on this gun - it was ordered with this sight (special order again). Buck. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CenterMark Date: 10 Jan 2002 01:47:48 EST Thanks C.T., Once again, I appreciate the help. Wade ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W Jones" <pwjones@myexcel.com> Subject: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Date: 10 Jan 2002 04:56:24 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01C19993.27535720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Members, I finally dug out the remainder of my Museum Fur Trade Quarterlies.=20 Included are 49 volumes, with 4 being combined issues. All are original = issues save and except those marked with an **, which are musuem = produced xerox copies. I will offer the entire lot for $120.00, including postage. If I do not = receive a buyer for that price by January 18 at 12:00 noon, I will then = offer the collection on E-Bay. =20 Thank you for your consideration. =20 What remains available is as follows: Volume 1, 1965 (combined issues 1 through 4) Volume 2, Spring 1966, #1 (this volume is a xerox furnished by the = museum, and any other issues that are also copies will be marked with an = "**." Volume 2, Summer 1966, #2, ** Volume 2, Winter, 1966, #4 Volume 3, Spring 1967 (combined issues 1 through 4) Volume 10, Winter 1974, #4, ** Volume 11, Spring 1975, #1, ** Volume 11, Summer 1975, #2, ** Volume 11, Fall 1975, #3, ** Volume 11, Winter 1975, #4, ** Volume 12, Spring 1976, #1, ** Volume 12, Summer 1976, #2, ** Volume 12, Fall 1976, #3, ** Volume 12, Winter 1976, #4, ** Volume 13, Spring 1977, #1 Volume 13, Summer 1977, #2 Volume 13, Winter 1977, #4 Volume 19, Summer 1983, #2 Volume 19, Fall 1983, #3 Volume 19, Winter 1983, #4 Volume 21, Spring 1985, #1 Volume 21, Fall 1985, #3 Volume 21, Winter 1985, #4 Volume 22, Fall 1986, #3 Volume22, Winter 1986, #4 Volume 23, Spring 1987, #1 Volume 23, Summer 1987, #2 Volume 23, Fall 1987, #3 Volume 24, Summer 1988, #2 Volume 24, Fall 1988, #3 Volume 24, Winter 1988, #4 Volume 25, Spring 1989, #1 Volume 25, Summer 1989, #2 Volume 25, Fall 1989, #3 Volume 25, Winter 1989, #4 Volume 26, Spring 1990, #1 Volume 26, Summer 1990, #2 Volume 26, Fall 1990, #3 Volume26, Winter 1990, #4 Volume 27, Combined issues, Spring and Summer 1991, #1 & #2 Volume 27, Winter 1991, #4 Volume 28, Combined issues, Summer and Fall 1992, #2 & #3 Volume 28, Winter 1992, #4 Volume 29, Spring 1993, #1 Volume 29, Summer 1993, #2 Volume 33, Winter 1997, #4 Volume 34, Spring 1998, #1 Volume 34, Fall 1998, #3 Volume 35, Winter 1999, #4 Regards, Paul ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01C19993.27535720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3314.2100" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Dear Members,</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>I finally dug out the remainder of my Museum = Fur Trade=20 Quarterlies. </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Included are 49 volumes, with 4 being = combined=20 issues. All are original issues save and except those marked with=20 an **, which are musuem produced xerox = copies.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>I will offer the entire lot for=20 $120.00, including postage. If I do not receive a buyer for = that=20 price by January 18 at 12:00 noon, I will then offer the collection on=20 E-Bay. </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Thank you for your consideration. =20 </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>What remains available is as=20 follows:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 1, 1965 (combined issues 1 through=20 4)</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 2, Spring 1966, #1 (this volume = is a=20 xerox furnished by the museum, and any other issues that are also copies = will be=20 marked with an "**."</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 2, Summer 1966, #2, = **</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 2, Winter, 1966, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 3, Spring 1967 (combined issues 1 = through=20 4)</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 10, Winter 1974, #4, = **</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 11, Spring 1975, #1, = **</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 11, Summer 1975, #2, = **</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 11, Fall 1975, #3, = **</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 11, Winter 1975, #4, = **</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 12, Spring 1976, #1, = **</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 12, Summer 1976, #2, = **</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 12, Fall 1976, #3, = **</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 12, Winter 1976, #4, = **</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 13, Spring 1977, = #1</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 13, Summer 1977, = #2</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 13, Winter 1977, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 19, Summer 1983, = #2</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 19, Fall 1983, = #3</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 19, Winter 1983, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 21, Spring 1985, = #1</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 21, Fall 1985, = #3</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 21, Winter 1985, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 22, Fall 1986, = #3</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume22, Winter 1986, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 23, Spring 1987, = #1</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 23, Summer 1987, = #2</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 23, Fall 1987, = #3</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 24, Summer 1988, = #2</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 24, Fall 1988, = #3</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 24, Winter 1988, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 25, Spring 1989, = #1</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 25, Summer 1989, = #2</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 25, Fall 1989, = #3</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 25, Winter 1989, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 26, Spring 1990, = #1</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 26, Summer 1990, = #2</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 26, Fall 1990, = #3</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume26, Winter 1990, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 27, Combined issues, Spring and = Summer 1991, #1=20 & #2</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 27, Winter 1991, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 28, Combined issues, Summer and Fall = 1992, #2=20 & #3</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 28, Winter 1992, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 29, Spring 1993, = #1</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 29, Summer 1993, = #2</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 33, Winter 1997, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 34, Spring 1998, = #1</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 34, Fall 1998, = #3</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Volume 35, Winter 1999, = #4</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Regards,</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Paul</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01C19993.27535720-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Date: 09 Jan 2002 10:18:33 -0500 buck and all--- if you need a rear sight setup for a smoothbore---you might look at danny caywoods rear sight it is made to soulder on the barrel with soft soulder and is easily installed---he has them in brass and in steel and also the front sights which are a matching set---believe the rear cost about $7.50 and the front $5.00 takes about 30 min to install with a propane torch and some soulder and tinning solution----dont have to get the barrel real hot if you use soft soulder and they stay good---the rear is drift-able for windage---its a pretty low profile sight ---this sight was copied from a original wilson gun is what danny says---??????---cant verify that---his dad has the original wilson danny told me--- I have used his sights several times and have a couple of them here in the shop---if any of you guys need one believe i have both steel and brass ones--- even have installed a set on a cannon barrel pistol i built with a long barrel---call it my hand held rifle it has a 18' barrel on it---shot a deer with it and killed it about 3 or 4 years ago---its 50 cal and shoots 55 gr of FFFg with a patched round ball and will keep your ball in a 50 yd big bull really consistant if you use 2 hands to shoot it or rest it on your knees while sitting it is flint of late english styleing "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Date: 10 Jan 2002 07:41:07 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 8:18 AM > buck and all--- > if you need a rear sight setup for a smoothbore---you might look at danny > caywoods rear sight it is made to soulder on the barrel with soft soulder > and is easily installed---he has them in brass and in steel and also the > front sights which are a matching set---believe the rear cost about $7.50 > and the front $5.00 takes about 30 min to install with a propane torch > and some soulder and tinning solution----dont have to get the barrel real > hot if you use soft soulder and they stay good---the rear is drift-able > for windage---its a pretty low profile sight ---this sight was copied > from a original wilson gun is what danny says---??????---cant verify > that---his dad has the original wilson danny told me--- > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > > ________________________________________________________________ Hawk, This is a good example of what could have been used by either the local gunsmith or blacksmith, I own two of Caywoods guns and one has the sight your talking about. Danny is really nice to deal with and always upbeat, talk to him at least once a month - he's a good man and makes a great product. Buck. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Date: 09 Jan 2002 21:16:28 -0700 --============_-1201486304==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Paul. I will send a check monday, need your addess Joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! --============_-1201486304==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" <!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <html><head><style type="text/css"></style><title>Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly</title></head><body> <div><font size="-1"><b>Paul.</b></font></div> <div><font size="-1"><b>I will send a check monday, need your addess</b></font></div> <div><font size="-1"><b><br></b></font></div> <div><font size="-1"><b>Joe</b></font></div> <div>-- <br> Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com<br> Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440<br> New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!</div> </body> </html> --============_-1201486304==_ma============-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W Jones" <pwjones@myexcel.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Date: 10 Jan 2002 10:27:02 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C199C1.57D99660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade QuarterlyHey Joe,=20 It pays to be quick. Yours was the first of 11 messages asking to = purchase the volumes. Get me your address and I will package them and mail out either Saturday = or Monday. Your credit is good with me. Will also enclose our new Clark and Sons wholesale catalogue for = dealers. If you have one for your furs, etc., please include it with = your check. Regards, Paul W. Jones 4609 Waycross Houston, TX 77035 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Brandl=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:16 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Paul. I will send a check monday, need your addess Joe --=20 Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture = 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C199C1.57D99660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade = Quarterly</TITLE> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <STYLE type=3Dtext/css>BLOCKQUOTE { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px } DL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px } LI { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px } </STYLE> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3314.2100" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Hey Joe, </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>It pays to be quick. Yours was the = first of 11=20 messages asking to purchase the volumes.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Get me your address and I will package them = and mail=20 out either Saturday or Monday. Your credit is good with=20 me.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Will also enclose our new Clark and Sons = wholesale=20 catalogue for dealers. If you have one for your furs, etc., please = include=20 it with your check.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Regards,</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Paul W. Jones</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>4609 Waycross</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Houston, TX 77035</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A href=3D"mailto:jbrandl@wyoming.com" title=3Djbrandl@wyoming.com>Joe = Brandl</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 09, = 2002 10:16=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: The = Museum of=20 the Fur Trade Quarterly</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>Paul.</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>I will send a check monday, need your=20 addess</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B><BR></B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>Joe</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV>-- <BR>Have a look at our web site @ <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.absarokawesterndesign.com">www.absarokawesterndesign.c= om</A><BR>Call=20 us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture=20 307-455-2440<BR>New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're=20 great!!</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C199C1.57D99660-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: muzzle loaders virus Date: 10 Jan 2002 14:30:14 -0600 This is about a virus that I heard is going around. The symptoms are as follows. 1. You start with a run down feeling and a lack of motivation. 2. Head ache and stiffness of the joints. 3. Fever and chills 4.You can't get along with the other half or even your friends. 5.Scream at the kids or grandkids and even kick the dog. This virus usually strikes about this time of year. THERE IS NO KNOWN CURE The only short-term remedy is to go out and buy a new muzzleloader and get out to the range and shoot. On the other hand maybe this is not so terrible after all May be we should send it to Washington D. C. and see what happens. [sent to me by a member of my little list] Worth a yuk or two. :-) Frank Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Date: 10 Jan 2002 20:15:39 -0500 On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:41:07 -0700 "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> writes: > This is a good example of what could have been used by either the local > gunsmith or blacksmith, I own two of Caywoods guns and one has the sight > your talking about. Danny is really nice to deal with and always upbeat, > talk to him at least once a month - he's a good man and makes a great > product. > Buck. I guess i got all entralled in reading on this thread and didnt say what i was also thinking but as you say it was a local fix to add a rear sight---thats one of the reasons he soft soulders them on the guns because we talked a bunch about that also---he doesnt use silver soulder as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in some cases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great ---danny and i are also close as he only lives about 10 miles from my home town where i was rased and went to high school---danny and i hunt together on my property best deer woods in the state he says ---if you like to climb the big mountain---always see deer danny and i spilled a beer on each other and he counceled me on my new adventures in gunmaking---seems he and i have made the same mistakes at different times---ever time i see him he tells me i dont charge enough for my guns---told him i do it a lot for the love of building them---he said if that was my only source of income then i would have a different attitude---we both agree that quality takes time and lots of patience---and the better the tooling the better the product--- his new crocket rifle is relly comming along---was working on the stock master when i was there---that was his major project going---and still trying to ship 5 or 6 guns a week him and his assistant---he was also detailing the engraving on the patchbox got to run--- Nuff said---- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: 18th c. natives/Camporee Date: 11 Jan 2002 12:53:20 +0000 Hi Fellows, There is a Boy Scout Camporee being held in Hartford county, Maryland in April 19th and they want someone who is knowledgable and respectful of native culture to give a presentation on Dealawares, and other related tribes. Sounds like a lot of fun and a chance to inspire these young people. I live 7 hrs. away and cannot do it. Is there any of you who live within a couple of hours of the sight who would be willing to spend some time with these boys. If so, contact me of list and I will put you in touch with the Scout Master. Thanks ahead of time for your interest. Your friend, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: MtMan-List: "excellent quality can be costly" Date: 11 Jan 2002 07:06:09 -0700 Hawk, I talked to Danny Caywood on Wed. of this week and asked about the Crocket rifle, he said it was in the $12,000.00 range and only 200 would be made, I've heard from others that this is as close as one can get to being a twin to the original. Like you said excellent quality is costly as seen in this "investment" weapon. Buck. > his new crocket rifle is relly comming along---was working on the stock > master when i was there---that was his major project going---and still > trying to ship 5 or 6 guns a week him and his assistant---he was also > detailing the engraving on the patchbox > > got to run--- > Nuff said---- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "excellent quality can be costly" Date: 11 Jan 2002 10:32:23 -0500 On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:06:09 -0700 "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> writes: > Hawk, > > I talked to Danny Caywood on Wed. of this week and asked about the > Crocket rifle, he said it was in the $12,000.00 range and only 200 would be > made, I've heard from others that this is as close as one can get to being > a twin to the original. Like you said excellent quality is costly as seen > in this "investment" weapon. he has done a bunch of research and has been working constantly for the last year and a half building the tooling to make all the parts---has even fondeled and took lots of pictures of the gun he is duplicating he was working on the carving on the stock whil i was there during hunting season---lock patchbox triggers and butplate lost wax molds made---he is keeping his web site current on the progress he is making---said he had invested over $100,000 in it so far has sample parts in from the foundry for most of the steel parts said he was going to have to sell a minimum of 20 rifles to get his money out of the project---he said he has orders for over 50 so far and people are asking for specific numbers of the serial numbers od 1 to 250---the relief carving on the wood was giving him fits on his stock masterall the barrel channel---and forstock was complete as was the butt area except for the carving in the wrist he had whacked out a couple of the basic stocks but was refining what he was doing a bit to better duplicate the original---believe he said he had over 6000 hrs labor in the project to date and if you get 2000hrs a year that is about 3 man years of just labor not including material and such---he was starting to turn and machine barrels and locks they looked good--- if you talk to danny tell him you and i correspond on occasions---he calls me a hobby gunmaker as i usually only make 10 to 20 guns a year but i scratch build---got a 62 cal hawken in the mill that needs to get finished as soon as possible plus others and trying to do the underhammer thing---doesnt seem to be enough hrs in the day---I know you know the feeling--- want to have a few guns ready for the alifi that comes up in february so i'm putting in the hrs--I sure hope he will break even on the crocket project---the engraveing on the rifle is beautiful but what else would you expect from danny-- got to run-- nuff said---- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Date: 11 Jan 2002 11:02:52 -0700 Hey there Hawk, Can I make a comment on this solder thing? I am sure excess heat could cause the warping you mention, to properly silver solder the metal must be heated to a good bright red for the flux and solder to flow. This heat done carefully should not cause a warping problem, perhaps worse is the formation of fire scale inside of the barrel. The scale can be prevented in several ways, I generally use Brownells ( a good old reliable fur trade name) <<GG>> anti fire scale paste generously coating the inside of the bore, especially in the area where the heat will be applied, this gunk when cleaned out leaves a fire scale free bore, works on rifles and the smooth tubes I prefer. Here I go again, Brownells also has a soft solder Force 44 I believe which is stronger than any other soft solder I have found. Have never met Danny C, but did run into his Dad at a vou, he allowed me to shoot the gun he had done with the Seahawks and inlays, I believe it later appeared on Caywoods catalog cover. Had a sweet release and very fast lock for a lock that big. Was a fine shooter. Charlie I believe was his name, was a perfect gentlemen and we chatted about a replacement lock for one of Curleys old locks. (which I have never followed up on!) Understand, I don't disagree with your post, just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and say Howdy at the same time. ---he doesnt use silver soulder > as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in > somecases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Spivey, Michael" <michael.spivey@lmco.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Date: 11 Jan 2002 11:42:44 -0800 Gentlemen, Just some comments on Silver Solder and type of solder. The comment below on using a true Silver Solder (actually a silver braze) on a already built up and finished firearm is fact as it can be very detrimental to the finish and the firearm as a whole. Silver Brase "Solder" melts between 1100?F and 1700?F and develops about 85,000 psi. Silver Brase is not normally used to mount sights but can be if that is what you wanted to do. Something better would be Brownells Hi Temp Hi-Force 44 Solder (95% Cad and 5% Silver, 650?F and 38,00 psi) or Brownells Hi-Force 44 Solder (96% Tin and 4% Silver, 475?F and 28,000 psi). There are also Hi Strength soft solders that can be used to mount sights, ribs etc but the fit of the part to a great degree controls how strong the joint will be. Most of those hard Soft Solders melt around 425-465?F and develop 10,000-16,000 psi strength. True soft solder 60/40 Tin/Lead melts at about 250 and develops about 2,000 to 4,000 psi and the fit is very important. Soldering Talc or welding soap stone (Pencil) can be used to refuse the solder from where you do not want it to be by rubbing it on where you do not want the solder to flow. My two Cents Mike Spivey Ontario, CA A&P Mech, Machinist, and Gunsmith -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:03 AM Hey there Hawk, Can I make a comment on this solder thing? I am sure excess heat could cause the warping you mention, to properly silver solder the metal must be heated to a good bright red for the flux and solder to flow. This heat done carefully should not cause a warping problem, perhaps worse is the formation of fire scale inside of the barrel. The scale can be prevented in several ways, I generally use Brownells ( a good old reliable fur trade name) <<GG>> anti fire scale paste generously coating the inside of the bore, especially in the area where the heat will be applied, this gunk when cleaned out leaves a fire scale free bore, works on rifles and the smooth tubes I prefer. Here I go again, Brownells also has a soft solder Force 44 I believe which is stronger than any other soft solder I have found. Have never met Danny C, but did run into his Dad at a vou, he allowed me to shoot the gun he had done with the Seahawks and inlays, I believe it later appeared on Caywoods catalog cover. Had a sweet release and very fast lock for a lock that big. Was a fine shooter. Charlie I believe was his name, was a perfect gentlemen and we chatted about a replacement lock for one of Curleys old locks. (which I have never followed up on!) Understand, I don't disagree with your post, just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and say Howdy at the same time. ---he doesnt use silver soulder > as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in > somecases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Date: 11 Jan 2002 12:53:46 -0700 Hawk & Charlie, Can I make a comment on this solder thing? I'll share this little story about putting heat on a trade gun barrel, Hanson got a big kick out of this, he had heard it before Bill told us at one of the Chradon Days rendezvous years ago. A reenacter from the northwest, William Stewart tells of stories told to him about the NW gun when living with several tribes in Canada. One that got my attention was, while cleaning his reproduction trade gun when visiting with some elders, the jag became stuck and pulled off the ramrod. Trying to not show his concern, yet think of a fast remedy for his problem, an elder spoke up and told of the same thing happening to him several times when he was young and using such a weapon. He went on to tell of pulling the barrel from the wood and placing it over a fire, "let it get hot enough until the patch burns from around the jag, it will then fall out". Maybe this explains why some stories tell of barrels bursting when shot! William didn't mention how he cured his problem, I'm sure it wasn't by heating as suggested. (Stewart 21,22) Now how much heat do you need to solder a little sight on guys <GGG>. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com O'Connor/Connor/Conner History: http://conner110.tripod.com/family.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 11:02 AM > Hey there Hawk, > Can I make a comment on this solder thing? > I am sure excess heat could cause the warping > you mention, to properly silver solder the metal > must be heated to a good bright red for the flux > and solder to flow. This heat done carefully should > not cause a warping problem, perhaps worse is the > formation of fire scale inside of the barrel. The scale > can be prevented in several ways, I generally use > Brownells ( a good old reliable fur trade name) <<GG>> > anti fire scale paste generously coating the inside of the > bore, especially in the area where the heat will be > applied, this gunk when cleaned out leaves a fire > scale free bore, works on rifles and the smooth > tubes I prefer. Here I go again, Brownells also > has a soft solder Force 44 I believe which is > stronger than any other soft solder I have found. > Have never met Danny C, but did run into > his Dad at a vou, he allowed me to shoot the gun > he had done with the Seahawks and inlays, I > believe it later appeared on Caywoods catalog > cover. Had a sweet release and very fast lock > for a lock that big. Was a fine shooter. Charlie > I believe was his name, was a perfect gentlemen > and we chatted about a replacement lock for > one of Curleys old locks. (which I have never > followed up on!) > Understand, I don't disagree with your post, > just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and say > Howdy at the same time. > > ---he doesnt use silver soulder > > as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in > > somecases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ya fooled me! Date: 11 Jan 2002 19:02:55 -0700 Buck, Ya fooled me, which is really not to hard to do, I thought you were going to tell us a story with a big bang for a finale. About three years ago a fellow came in to our shop packing the ugliest muzzle loader I have ever seen. It was all brass mounted with medalions and brass bands, Ma of pearl inlays and engraving, simply ugly. Wanted to know if it was safe to shoot, Hmmmm says I where on earth did this firearm come from? He said he had bought it from a tribesman in Turkey or some such faraway place. On further questioning he informed me that after buying the gun he had gone through hell getting it through customs and into the United States. My first thought was "well no wonder, anything that ugly should be burried, not brought into the U.S." but being the gentleman I am I simply asked if he was serious about shooting it. He was, I then asked is it loaded.........Of course not he shouted, I just told you I had to bring it through customs, what a stupid question, I have been handling firearms for years... on and on he complained. Well you know the rest of the story, found it indeed was loaded. Pulled the breachplug and found not one but two loads of powder and two patched round balls one on top of the other. Could have been very interesting had some one tried to solder a rear sight on this one. > Can I make a comment on this solder thing? I'll share this little > story > about putting heat on a trade gun barrel, ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Date: 11 Jan 2002 20:02:18 -0700 Howdy Mike, I am going add 2 more cents worth and muddy the water even more, <<<ggg>>> Thank you for your input on this solder and sight thread. Your information is very concise and accurate. However over the past 50 so years working with modern and antique firearms I have found many that were silver soldered (brased). It used to be that an import side by side shotgun such as Greener or Purdy was was far more regarded because of the hard solder used to hold the barrels and rib together. Other imports used soft solder and sold for far less money, most inexpensive side by sides today are done the same. My Winchester model 21 and 23 are silver soldered, as is my Bosse and Gebruder. My Stoger coach gun is soft soldered. I have several Rugers that the sights are silver soldered on from the factory. Pedersoli's muzzle loading shot guns are/were soft soldered, and I know of several that have come apart. I don't know of a practicing gunsmith who would not include the refinishing in silver solder job. Even with soft solder there can be some unforseen refinishing that must be done. You can't solder anything hard or soft without first removing the finish down to the bare clean/degreased metal. Refinishing blueing/ browning is much easier to do than removing fire scale from a rifled bore. Most gunsmiths today glue ribs on rather than take the chance of a flux run or other soft solder booboo. Over the years, I have used a lot of pounds of Force 44, and I believe it to be very good. Again, I enjoyed and appreciate you input! Catch you all later, Charlie > Just some comments on Silver Solder and type of solder. > > The comment below on using a true Silver Solder (actually a silver > braze) on > a already built up and finished firearm is fact as it can be very > detrimental to the finish and the firearm as a whole. Silver Brase > "Solder" > melts between 1100?F and 1700?F and develops about 85,000 psi. > Silver Brase > is not normally used to mount sights but can be if that is what you > wanted > to do. Something better would be Brownells Hi Temp Hi-Force 44 > Solder (95% > Cad and 5% Silver, 650?F and 38,00 psi) or > Brownells Hi-Force 44 Solder (96% Tin and 4% Silver, 475?F and > 28,000 psi). > There are also Hi Strength soft solders that can be used to mount > sights, > ribs etc but the fit of the part to a great degree controls how > strong the > joint will be. Most of those hard Soft Solders melt around 425-465?F > and > develop 10,000-16,000 psi strength. True soft solder 60/40 Tin/Lead > melts > at about 250 and develops about 2,000 to 4,000 psi and the fit is > very > important. Soldering Talc or welding soap stone (Pencil) can be > used to > refuse the solder from where you do not want it to be by rubbing it > on where > you do not want the solder to flow. > > My two Cents > > Mike Spivey > Ontario, CA > A&P Mech, Machinist, and Gunsmith ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Barrels(Finishing) Date: 12 Jan 2002 03:21:54 +0000 Howdy Fellas, While we're on the subject of soldering, rear sights, etc. In the 18th c. it was common practice to dovetail lugs on muskets, fowlers, rifles whether they were octagon or round or a combination of both. I've never seen original antique barrels with soldered on underlugs. It was also common practice here in the colonies to blue gun barrels by digging a pit and filling the bore with crushed charcoal to keep the bore from oxidizing. Build a fire in the oblong pit and let it burn down to hot coals lke you would if you were going to roast corn ears. Lay the gun barrel in the hot coals and put more hot coals on top of the gun barrel. Let her simmer for 45 min. or so and you have yourself aan original old time fire blue finish. Over in Europe, they heated round rods and kept shoving them in the bore so as to heat the barrel from the inside out. When it turned blue on the outside it was done. Front sights on the old trade guns were set in a groove engraved in the barrel and simply peened in at the ends of the blade. And these blades were just a half circle of iron, never seen any little brass turtles soldered on any original old trade guns. Now, I know this fire pit stuff might scare the heck out of some of you, but that's how they used to do it. Don Secondine in the Ohio Country _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! Date: 11 Jan 2002 23:12:33 -0500 Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous. As usual, this is an open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a spell, and partake of liquid refreshment... Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend... Regards, Ad ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" <chand@alltel.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! Date: 12 Jan 2002 01:10:28 -0500 Ad.. have a pint fer me... sorry I cannot make it this year.... gimme one more year to get healthy..... then look out.. I'll come and sleep in yer tent and laugh at yer jokes and hug yer gruzzly ole neck! Good luck! Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://www.alltel.net/~chand/ ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 11:12 PM > Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous. As usual, this is an > open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a spell, and > partake of liquid refreshment... > > Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend... > > Regards, > > Ad > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! Date: 12 Jan 2002 01:09:36 -0500 YOU COMING REAL EARLY ARNT YOU PARD----WILL SEE YOU THERE----BEST GET MY STUIFF IN ORDER---SEE YOU THERE--- BOY DOES TIME FLY---stuff---now i have to be on a schedule again---got to run---more later===\ sorry for the shouting but the cap locks was on --- nuff said-=-- hawk--- On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:12:33 -0500 "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net> writes: > Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous. As usual, this > is an > open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a > spell, and > partake of liquid refreshment... > > Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend... > > Regards, > > Ad > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! Date: 12 Jan 2002 09:38:49 -0500 Due to illness, I will not be there this year.....next year. Linda Holley hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > YOU COMING REAL EARLY ARNT YOU PARD----WILL SEE YOU THERE----BEST GET MY > STUIFF IN ORDER---SEE YOU THERE--- BOY DOES TIME FLY---stuff---now i have > to be on a schedule again---got to run---more later===\ > sorry for the shouting but the cap locks was on --- > > nuff said-=-- > > hawk--- > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:12:33 -0500 "Addison Miller" > <admiller@citynet.net> writes: > > Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous. As usual, this > > is an > > open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a > > spell, and > > partake of liquid refreshment... > > > > Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend... > > > > Regards, > > > > Ad > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > & "The Arkansas Underhammers" > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle (souldering) Date: 12 Jan 2002 14:06:44 -0500 charley---michael and guys and gals--- I get into this souldering things all the time---have used all types of soulder on guns and gun parts---there is a right soulder for almost any job (GBG)---now in my humbel opinion and from the couple of years of doing gun work that i have done---and also the slight bit of restoration i have accomplished and the number of double shotguns i have replaced the rib's on and the sights i have stuck on with soulder I have to address a few simple basic questions or parameters all of us need to think about when doing such a project---and keep in the back of our minds 1.heat 2.what you are soldering 3. strength of joint 4. fit of joint 5. cleanlyness is next to godlyness 6. soldering is not welding or brazeing 7. loads on the souldered joint 8.purpose of souldering--- 9. why are you souldering and not welding it 10. do we need a bit of overkill in our bond 11. there is a difference between souldring and silver brazeing 12.tinning a joint 13. availability of materials now that most of the basic considerations are listed and yes there is still a few more i didnt post on the above list---lets get down to basics---what are we trying to do---stick a rear sight on a gun without applying more heat than is required first i am from the school that believes that you should put no more height on a barrel than is required to do your job---just what are we souldering---should we weld it NO ---too much heat---is this a load bearing thing---it should not be---so we come down to look at the project---putting a rear sight on a gun similar to the way a old repair or job was done---they didnt use silver braze---the didnt need the high strength of that kind of joint---if we are going to have a good stable joint the parts we are putting together should be bare metal and good contact fit---CLEAN---totally clean---welding puts a lot of heat into a piece of metal in fact you are flowing metal of the like kind together into a homogenious mixture---do we need high strength in a sight---no---just suffecient strength to keep it on the gun in normal and semiabnormal conditions so this eleminates the need to weld or to silver braze or to braze the sight in place---in souldering a part requires it be timnned good to get a good bond and in silver souldering the flux is what helpe to get the metal to flow and to stick where it needs to go tinning is your flux in souldering---ever try to twist a couple of copper water pipes apart that have been souldered ???????a good souldered joint is a lot stronger than most of us realize if it was cleaned and tinned properly so we now get down to the meat of the whole discussion---I do not like to silver braze or braze parts on a ml for the rear sight and for the under rib and the underlugs in some cases especially in thinn barrels---I thank soulder is appropriate (from the above statement i bet HERE comes the flack) guys go to your local hawdware store pick up a can of tinning solution (tinnaloyal or equivelent)also pick up a spool of the new lead free 3 % silver copper pipe soulder without flux(ie rosen core) that is used for souldering water pipes together---melts and works at low temp------take out your sight apply the tinning compound to the sight after you have cleaned the sight tin it good in the contact area and wipe off all the excess while it is hot and melted do the same to the barrel where you want to sight to godont put the tinning solution where you dont want solder to flow---take about a 1/2 length of the stick soulder and melt on the bottom of the sight base and flow it evenly across the bottom of the part then take some wire and wire the sight in place or clamp it in place your choice---take your propane tourch and warm up the two parts together all of a sudden the sight falls into place---no excessive soulder on the barrel and its there for good if you cleaned the parts and tinned them properly---and you didnt even hardly discolor the barrel on the inside---strong enough---yes---overstrong---no---do you need more strength of bond no---now take some steel woll and or emery and clean the sight and the area on the barrel where you got excessive metal ---blue or brown or leave bright your choice---barrel cleanup is easy doing it this way---I have done a bunch of under ribs on ML shotguns this way and it works and is strong enough without excessive heat I have never had a rear sight come off that i did this way and have done quite a few---(I also know a few gunbuilders that do the same thing with the underlugs)---the new lead free soulder is a lot stronger than you realize and will easily meet your needs for this prodject--- some of you may agree and some of the techies will disagree but just posting my humbel opinion and experiences guys--- Nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega <chrissega1@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo hunt next year Date: 12 Jan 2002 17:59:59 -0800 (PST) I was wondering if any of you know of a ranch that offers buff hunts in AZ or UT. Some of you had mentioned getting your' buffs in MT, but Thats a little too far. Arizona has a state run hunt but, you only get a quarter of the beast and don't get to keep the hide. Thanks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Great Books! Date: 13 Jan 2002 22:21:13 EST It's cold, wet, rainy, and dark in my camp this time of the year. So, when I ain't up to terrorizing some critter, or trying to make sumtin, I read...mostly fur trade, history stuff. The last three I finished of late are: "Adventures of the First Settlers on the Oregon or Columbia River" from the journal of Alexander Ross. ( a great read about a clerk for Astoria, NW Co, and HBC...and covers my area of the woods) next: "Narrative of a Journey Across the Rocky Mountains to the Columbia River" by John K Townsend..(a physician/ornithologist that traveled west with Wyeth...outstanding!) and finally: "Siskiyou Trail.. the Hudson's Bay Fur Co. Route to California" by Richard Dillion. (another great book covering many who made it west of the Rocky's) But the book I'm having a hard time putting down is not a history book at all, but a novel by Stewart E. White.... "THE LONGRIFLE". I found a 1st addition, 1932, nearly falling apart, in an antique store in Billings...for $3. The tale is by far one of the best reads I've had in a while, (pure mountain man stuff!) and I recommend it to all on our lists. If I can get the covers pieced back together, I'll send this one to the AMM library...it's just to good to set on a shelf... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Great Books! Date: 13 Jan 2002 22:10:53 -0700 Steve, I've read Long Rifle a couple of times and have to agree that it is a good read. It has been reprinted and is commonly available. Teton On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 22:21:13 EST SWcushing@aol.com writes: > It's cold, wet, rainy, and dark in my camp this time of the year. So, > when I > ain't up to terrorizing some critter, or trying to make sumtin, I > read...mostly fur trade, history stuff. The last three I finished of > late > are: "Adventures of the First Settlers on the Oregon or Columbia > River" from > the journal of Alexander Ross. ( a great read about a clerk for > Astoria, NW > Co, and HBC...and covers my area of the woods) next: "Narrative of a > Journey > Across the Rocky Mountains to the Columbia River" by John K > Townsend..(a physician/ornithologist that traveled west with > Wyeth...outstanding!) and finally: "Siskiyou Trail.. the Hudson's > Bay Fur Co. > Route to California" by Richard Dillion. (another great book > covering many > who made it west of the Rocky's) > But the book I'm having a hard time putting down is not a history > book at > all, but a novel by Stewart E. White.... "THE LONGRIFLE". I found a > 1st > addition, 1932, nearly falling apart, in an antique store in > Billings...for > $3. The tale is by far one of the best reads I've had in a while, > (pure > mountain man stuff!) and I recommend it to all on our lists. If I > can get the > covers pieced back together, I'll send this one to the AMM > library...it's > just to good to set on a shelf... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: MtMan-List: new grandson Date: 14 Jan 2002 00:01:20 -0600 Ho the list My stepdaughter presented us with a fine, strapping new grandson on Saturday night. Perfectly healthy, almost nine pounds and 21 inches long. Appears to have been born three months old. Let me tell you, this is one kid that doesn't look like a wet weasel, either. No sir, this young gent looks like Uncle Fester. Waugh!! Lanney Ratcliff amm1585@hyperusa.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new grandson Date: 13 Jan 2002 22:14:25 -0800 Stick a light bulb in the lad and see if he can light it up! I think that my new granddaughter likes younger men, so you be keeping him down there in the Republic, eh? B'st'rd Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > > Ho the list > My stepdaughter presented us with a fine, strapping new grandson on Saturday > night. Perfectly healthy, almost nine pounds and 21 inches long. Appears > to have been born three months old. > Let me tell you, this is one kid that doesn't look like a wet weasel, > either. No sir, this young gent looks like Uncle Fester. > Waugh!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new grandson Date: 13 Jan 2002 22:15:50 -0800 List: sorry for not checking the replied-to address. My message was supposed to have routed straight to Mr. Rat... And again, worry for the WOB. B'st'rd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: new grandson Date: 14 Jan 2002 09:05:53 -0500 "No sir, this young gent looks like Uncle Fester." Lanney, Again, CONGRATS!.. But I though you said he sorta reminded you of Brother Larry. You know, sorta slick headed..<G> D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: rear sight & solder Date: 14 Jan 2002 08:24:20 -0600 Charlie Webb said, < Brownells also has a soft solder Force 44 I believe which is stronger than any other soft solder I have found> Charlie, I don't doubt it is good stuff. Brownell's has been a dependable supplier to me for many years. However, I am not a skilled craftsman and must depend on tips and what will do the job the best for me with a minimum of fuss. At one time Sears sold a low-temp silver solder that was an outstanding product. Applied easy and was incredibly strong. Inexpensive too. Don't know if they still sell it but is worth looking for if one wants a good trouble-free gun solder. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter <mail4dog@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new grandson Date: 14 Jan 2002 06:26:31 -0800 (PST) Congratulations on the new arrival-if you are like me you will have a photo or two to show when you travel to the high country this spring. Dog --- Lanney Ratcliff <amm1585@hyperusa.com> wrote: > Ho the list > My stepdaughter presented us with a fine, strapping > new grandson on Saturday > night. Perfectly healthy, almost nine pounds and 21 > inches long. Appears > to have been born three months old. > Let me tell you, this is one kid that doesn't look > like a wet weasel, > either. No sir, this young gent looks like Uncle > Fester. > Waugh!! > Lanney Ratcliff > amm1585@hyperusa.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: MtMan-List: scout canoe trip Date: 13 Jan 2002 20:55:41 -0700 Fellow members, our scout troop is interested in a canoe trip down the Yellowstone river this summer. A few years ago we canoed 132 miles down the Green River, from the New Fork to the town of Green River, took 8 days, was a great trip. I know very little about the Yellowstone, except I liked the look of the river as I made my way to Ft Union to the conference a while back. Where can we start and end, what is the camping situation Any water available along the way to drink or do we filter it Historical sites best month to canoe river conditions, rocks, rapids, shallow water, lockness monsters, etc thank you in advance for any information or places to obtain maps Joe Brandl -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Date: 13 Jan 2002 20:57:16 -0700 --============_-1201141857==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Adress is Joe Brandl 1416 Warm Springs Drive PO Box 777 Dubois, WY 82513 307-455-2440 -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! --============_-1201141857==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" <!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <html><head><style type="text/css"></style><title>Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly</title></head><body> <div><font size="-1"><b>Adress is</b></font></div> <div><font size="-1"><b><br></b></font></div> <div><font size="-1"><b>Joe Brandl</b></font></div> <div><font size="-1"><b>1416 Warm Springs Drive</b></font></div> <div><font size="-1"><b>PO Box 777</b></font></div> <div><font size="-1"><b>Dubois, WY 82513</b></font></div> <div><font size="-1"><b>307-455-2440</b></font></div> <div>-- <br> Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com<br> Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440<br> New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!</div> </body> </html> --============_-1201141857==_ma============-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" <ghickman9@attbi.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: scout canoe trip Date: 14 Jan 2002 09:15:29 -0700 Joe - There are a seies of maps out on floating the rivers here in Montana. They have access points, camp areas, and mileages marked. I have used several for floating parts of the Missouri. I'll be over at the office (Fish, Wildlife, & Parks) tomorrow. If there is one for the Yellowstone I'll let you know. Bead Shooter AKA Gene Hickman Helena, MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:55 PM > Fellow members, > > our scout troop is interested in a canoe trip down the Yellowstone > river this summer. A few years ago we canoed 132 miles down the Green > River, from the New Fork to the town of Green River, took 8 days, > was a great trip. I know very little about the Yellowstone, except I > liked the look of the river as I made my way to Ft Union to the > conference a while back. > > Where can we start and end, > what is the camping situation > Any water available along the way to drink or do we filter it > Historical sites > best month to canoe > river conditions, rocks, rapids, shallow water, lockness monsters, etc > > thank you in advance for any information or places to obtain maps > > Joe Brandl > -- > Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com > Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 > New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Knapp <dennis@clearsprings.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Introduction Date: 14 Jan 2002 10:53:20 -0700 My name is Dennis Knapp, aka Sticher from southern Idaho. I've been lurking on this list for the better part of a year now. I enjoy the many posts and have learned much. It is because of this list that I have gotten interested in the AMM. I went to the Poison River Party's winter camp and annual meeting at Fort Hall this past weekend. Met some good folks and had a grand time. Hope to see many of you again. I'll try not to be so quiet in the future. Thanks again for sharing all your knowledge here. Regards, Sticher ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new grandson Date: 14 Jan 2002 14:31:18 EST Congrats Lanney to you and yours! Used to get called Uncle Festser all the time when I a kid. Don't evre give a fat kid a crew cutout ain't purty! ZZZZZZZ Sleepsloudly ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new grandson Date: 14 Jan 2002 09:44:55 -0500 CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU PARD AND TO THE NEW MOTHER AND FATHER-- do we start calling you grampa lanny yet--???? inquiring minds want to know---(GBG) "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new grandson Date: 14 Jan 2002 15:53:34 EST Lanney! Congrats on the new addition to your family!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Introduction Date: 14 Jan 2002 13:22:59 -0800 Oh Hell. There goes the nieghborhood... if'n they start letting dem folks from Southern Idaho in, who knows who'll get in next! <grin> Welcome to the list Sticher, look forward to hearing what's up down in the southern part of God's own state... drop me a line when you've got the info on yer Rendezvous sorted out and I'll put it on the website. Regards Lee Newbill, AMM#1821 North Idaho ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 9:53 AM > My name is Dennis Knapp, aka Sticher from southern Idaho. I've been lurking on this list for the better part of a year now. I enjoy the many posts and have learned much. It is because of this list that I have gotten interested in the AMM. I went to the Poison River Party's winter camp and annual meeting at Fort Hall this past weekend. Met some good folks and had a grand time. Hope to see many of you again. I'll try not to be so quiet in the future. Thanks again for sharing all your knowledge here. > Regards, Sticher > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: new grandson Date: 14 Jan 2002 19:45:02 -0600 do we start calling you grampa lanny yet--???? inquiring minds want to know---(GBG) I have been called pawpaw for almost 14 years already. I have a near-bout grown grand daughter and another grandson, besides. So paw paw will do. Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 8:44 AM > CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU PARD AND TO THE NEW MOTHER AND FATHER-- > > do we start calling you grampa lanny yet--???? inquiring minds want to > know---(GBG) > > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > & "The Arkansas Underhammers" > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: scout canoe trip Date: 14 Jan 2002 18:33:37 -0800 Joe, A bunch of us did the lower yellowstone in July '99. It is a good smooth water trip. There is one short portage around a rip rock diversion dam. Be aware of it! I wouldn't want to go over that thing. If I remember right, I got most of the info for this trip from searching google, etc... I have a great book, Western Whitewater, but it only included the upper Yellowstone. This book gives flow rates, etc...all kinds of good info, if you are ever considering another western trip. Back to the lower Yellowstone... We put in at the town of Glendive. It was about 125 miles to the confluence of the Missouri River and Ft Union, this is were we pulled out. They let us keep our shuttle vehicles at the Ft. , for safe keeping. We did the trip in 5 days, but then we're Mtn Men <g>. We had several kids with us, including my 15 year old son. We saw some rain, a major sand storm and were very close to a tornado... it was a great trip! The water is muddy, bring canvas buckets, water pumps and extra filters. Let the water stand in a bucket overnight, then pump water in the morning. The water is clearer in the middle of the river, so if you have to pump now, do it out in the river rather than along the bank. I think you can get water at the diversion dam, if I remember right. Otherwise, there isn't much out there... which is one reason it's a good trip. You mentioned the Green River. Have you done from Green River Town to the confluence of the Colorado R. ? We did that, what a great trip! class one all the way. You need to hire an outfitter to pick you up, so could be costly with a bunch of scouts. Anyway, I'll try to find my notes on that trip, and let you know anything helpful. hardtack > > our scout troop is interested in a canoe trip down the Yellowstone > river this summer. > > Where can we start and end, > what is the camping situation > Any water available along the way to drink or do we filter it > Historical sites > best month to canoe > river conditions, rocks, rapids, shallow water, lockness monsters, etc > > thank you in advance for any information or places to obtain maps > > Joe Brandl > -- --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: scout canoe trip Date: 14 Jan 2002 22:31:01 EST In a message dated 1/14/02 6:34:38 PM, rjbublitz@earthlink.net writes: << A bunch of us did the lower yellowstone in July '99. It is a good smooth water trip. >> Hardtack, Kamosuk (Gene Hickman) and I are kicking around a canoe trip down the upper Missouri, like you boys did last year. Would work good for one of my hiveranno requirements, and some for Gene on his bossloper stuff, if he's in by then. Send me what ever information you can on that trip, and do ya think it's a better run than the Yellowstone river? Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: scout canoe trip Date: 14 Jan 2002 19:51:14 -0800 Magpie, I wouldn't say the Upper Mo. is better, or worse...just different. I have lots of good info. on the White Cliffs (upper Mo) run. We've done it twice now. The first time from Ft. Benton to Robinson Bridge, the second from Coal Banks Landing (150 miles vs. 120 miles). It's getting more crowded, what with the Lewis & Clark Bi-Centenial coming up. We did the Yellowstone because that is where Clark explored on the return journey. Send me your snail mail address, and I'll send you info.. (I proly have it here, but don't make me dig...<s>) The files get too big for e-mail sending. hardtack > Hardtack, > Kamosuk (Gene Hickman) and I are kicking around a canoe trip down the upper > Missouri, like you boys did last year. Would work good for one of my > hiveranno requirements, and some for Gene on his bossloper stuff, if he's in > by then. > Send me what ever information you can on that trip, and do ya think it's a > better run than the Yellowstone river? > Ymos, > Magpie > --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: new grandson Date: 14 Jan 2002 23:24:26 -0500 got you 5 X 5 paw-paw lanny--- nuff said ---congratulations big guy---hoping to head out for pigs in the next few weeks---filled my deet tickets---need pork for the porkeaters--- nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "pat broehl" <patbroehl@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 14 Jan 2002 21:49:40 -0800 unsubscribe _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: new tread - horses Date: 15 Jan 2002 09:51:31 -0800 <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P><BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>C. Kent, honey,</DIV> <DIV>What kind of horses did mountain men ride other than indian mustangs?</DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag1_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new tread - horses Date: 15 Jan 2002 11:13:03 -0700 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3093937983_578675_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sue, Live horses, the dead one's are too hard to motivate. (just kidding) YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- C. Kent, honey, What kind of horses did mountain men ride other than indian mustangs? Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here <http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag1_etl_EN.asp> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --MS_Mac_OE_3093937983_578675_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: new tread - horses</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF"> Sue,<BR> Live horses, the dead one's are too hard to motivate. (just kidding)<BR> YMOS<BR> Ole # 718<BR> ----------<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> C. Kent, honey,<BR> What kind of horses did mountain men ride other than indian mustangs?<BR> <BR> <HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"100%"><BR> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0= 000FF"><U>http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag1_etl_EN.asp</U></FONT>> <BR> ---------------------- hist_text list info: <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http:/= /www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</U></FONT> <BR> </BLOCKQUOTE> </BODY> </HTML> --MS_Mac_OE_3093937983_578675_MIME_Part-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" <ghickman9@attbi.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: scout canoe trip Date: 15 Jan 2002 13:34:11 -0700 Joe, Finally got over to the office today and got the information you're looking for. Falcon Press (1-800-968-3550 or www.falcon.com) has two guides to floating the Yellowstone River. They are part of a series call Montana Float Maps. One is from Gardiner to Big Timber and the other from Big Timber to Huntley. I think that these guides are exactly what you are looking for. They have access points, camp sites, river ratings, and a bunch more. The list we had at the office showed that they are $3.95 each. Unfortunately, we only had the Missouri River Series and Blackfoot River in stock. This is the first time I had used there web page and I could not find the maps on it. But we have maps in stock and they are still listed on their order form. You might give them a call. There is also a book out called "Paddling Montana" by Hank Fisher that is listed on their site. It is a good source too. Good Luck. YMOS Bead Shooter AKA Gene Hickman ----- Original Message ----- > ...our scout troop is interested in a canoe trip down the Yellowstone > river this summer....Where can we start and end, what is the camping situation > Any water available along the way to drink or do we filter it > Historical sites best month to canoe river conditions, rocks, rapids, shallow water, lockness monsters, etc...< ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new tread - horses Date: 16 Jan 2002 07:32:08 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C19E5F.E78ACE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sue, I have not run across any reference to Mountain Men using other than = Indian horses until horses and mules were used to bring supplies to the = rendezvous. If anyone has an earlier reference, I would appreciate it. = My web site www.thefurtrapper.com has an article on the distribution and = use of the Indian Horse. In the middle of the article is a link that = compares the size of the Indian Horse to a modern day Paint horse which = was very interesting to me.=20 Take Care, Ned ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C19E5F.E78ACE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Sue,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">I have not run across any reference = to=20 Mountain Men using other than Indian horses until horses and mules = were=20 used to bring supplies to the rendezvous. If anyone has an = earlier=20 reference, I would appreciate it. My web site <A=20 href=3D"http://www.thefurtrapper.com">www.thefurtrapper.com</A> has an = article on=20 the distribution and use of the Indian Horse. In the middle of the = article=20 is a link that compares the size of the Indian Horse to a modern day = Paint=20 horse which was very interesting to me. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Take Care,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Ned</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C19E5F.E78ACE80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new tread - horses Date: 16 Jan 2002 07:37:05 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C19E60.98546000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sue, I am changing internet companies and just found out my site will be off = line until later today or tomorrow...sorry. Ned=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C19E60.98546000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Sue,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">I am changing internet companies = and just=20 found out my site will be off line until later today or=20 tomorrow...sorry.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier = New"> Ned </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C19E60.98546000-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: a later day buckskinner Date: 16 Jan 2002 12:45:12 -0600 An interesting story in the March issue of Hunting Magazine about a fellow nicknamed Buckskin Bill who died in 1980. The story is by Grits Gresham and can be seen at: http://www.huntingmag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=324&intArticleID=1762 Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new tread - horses Date: 16 Jan 2002 12:22:41 -0800 <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P><BR>>From: "Ned Eddins" <NEDDINS@SILVERSTAR.COM></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV>>To: <HIST_TEXT@LISTS.XMISSION.COM> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new tread - horses <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV>>Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:37:05 -0700 <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV>>Sue, <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV>>I am changing internet companies and just found out my site will be off line until later today or tomorrow...sorry. <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P>> Ned </P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Garamond, Times, Serif">Thank you Ned sweetie,</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face=Times> My brother, a trainer of horses for a decade, has said around the dinner table discussions that the morgan was a good mountain man's horse. He used to debate with Dad that the myth of the stallion used by trappers would have been both dangerous and have worn out the rider. Of course, many fiction based novels would have the public accepting this as contrary to many book's mythic enchantment. Have you ran across many references to stallions being rode?</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face=Times>Sue</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag4_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a later day buckskinner Date: 16 Jan 2002 15:14:18 -0700 Frank, There have been several books written about Sylvan Hart and dozen of articles about him and his life style on the Salmon River in Idaho, Dick "Keelboat" Whitmer (AMM brother, now gone to the other side with Sylvan) was a personal friend of Hart's, Dick showed me several muzzle loading pistols and a couple of knives that Sylvan had made and gave him. His work was not the neatest, but when one considers the working conditions and material he had at hand - then they where probably pretty darn good. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 11:45 AM > An interesting story in the March issue of Hunting Magazine about a > fellow nicknamed Buckskin Bill who died in 1980. The story is by Grits > Gresham and can be seen at: > http://www.huntingmag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=324&intArticleID=1762 > > Frank G. Fusco > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: Sue MtMan-List: new tread - horses Date: 16 Jan 2002 15:16:00 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C19EA0.B47C8560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have not found any specific reference to the use of stallions by = Mountain Men. The Spanish explorers preferred to ride stallions, but I = think for the Indian, or the Mountain Man, they would have created real = problems. Except for the pack trains from St.Louis and the trapper = brigades to a new area, I am not sure how much horses were used. Once = the trapper was in the area he wanted to trap, horses would have been = more of a liability that an asset. Ned ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C19EA0.B47C8560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">I have not found any specific reference = to the use=20 of stallions by Mountain Men. The Spanish explorers preferred to = ride=20 stallions, but I think for the Indian, or the Mountain Man, they would = have=20 created real problems. Except for the pack trains from St.Louis and = the=20 trapper brigades to a new area, I am not sure how much horses were used. = Once=20 the trapper was in the area he wanted to trap, horses would have been = more of a=20 liability that an asset.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Ned</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C19EA0.B47C8560-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Riding a "Stallion" Date: 16 Jan 2002 18:32:20 EST <<debate with Dad that the myth of the stallion used by trappers would have been both dangerous>> I don't know about any record of mountain man riding "Stallions" but I have to agree with the potential for a dangerous ride. My wife and I ride horses in company (Fox Hunting with Hounds) and Stallions are not appreciated in the hunt field. All it takes is one mare in season to create all kinds of havok. You just can't believe what it is like to have a Stallion (read that stud) try to mount the horse you are on. And when they (Mare and Stallion) get wind of each other they can be quite noisey which might attract unwanted attention from others. Another problem can occur if you get two or more stallions together as they need to establish alph domanance and that can get to be a mess on a picket line. So if it were me I would ride a mare or a gelding and leave the stallions out on the range. Y.M.O.S. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" <nick.de.santis@intel.com> Subject: MtMan-List: looking for a ball mold Date: 16 Jan 2002 17:16:04 -0800 Sorry if this is not the place for this, but I am having a time finding a .520 round ball mold. Anybody got a idea? Thanks, Nick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: -horses of the fur trade & Stallion Date: 16 Jan 2002 20:28:23 EST --part1_119.b08a981.297782b7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ned said: (I have not run across any reference to Mountain Men using other than Indian horses until horses and mules were used to bring supplies to the rendezvous) Ned if you mean Spanish Barbs when you say Indian horses were used by the Mountain Men your absolutely right. But even after horses and mules were used to bring supplies to the Rendezvous they were most likely to be of Spanish Barb blood lines. For the stock that was used was out of St. Louis. Which was getting most of there stock out of Santa Fe. and Taos area. Why even the Missouri Mule early beginnings came out of the Santa Fe area. During the fur trade there was a lot of Horse trading and stealing going on in California. With the horses all headed for the Rockies. Read about Ewing Young, Jedediah Smith, Peg leg Smith, Beckworth and Walker just to name a few the men that engaged in this trade at one time or another. These horses too were of the Spanish Barb Blood. As for Stallions being used well I haven't read of any being used. But I haven't read of them not being used ether. Them Indians sure did have a lot of horses for not having any Studs around. (BG) I have used a Spanish Barb Stud on a couple of four and five day rides with a mix bunch of horses. With little to no problems. In fact I had him at the AMM Nationals this year. Course he is a good horse and you have to be aware of what your ridding at all times. So I think it would depend on the horse and ones ability to handle it. If it's a problem fix it! I also think a horse was used at all times. Trapping or whenever for if you were without a horse you were on hard times. Just my two Cents worth. See ya on the trail. Crazy Cyot --part1_119.b08a981.297782b7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Ned said: <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="FIXED" FACE="Courier New" LANG="0">(I have not run across any reference to Mountain Men using other than Indian horses until horses and mules were used to bring supplies to the rendezvous) <BR> Ned if you mean Spanish Barbs when you say Indian horses were used by the Mountain Men your absolutely right. <BR>But even after horses and mules were used to bring supplies to the Rendezvous they were most likely to be of Spanish Barb blood lines. For the stock that was used was out of St. Louis. Which was getting most of there stock out of Santa Fe. and Taos area. Why even the Missouri Mule early beginnings came out of the Santa Fe area. During the fur trade there was a lot of Horse trading and stealing going on in California. With the horses all headed for the Rockies. Read about Ewing Young, Jedediah Smith, Peg leg Smith, Beckworth and Walker just to name a few the men that engaged in this trade at one time or another. These horses too were of the Spanish Barb Blood. <BR> <BR>As for Stallions being used well I haven't read of any being used. But I haven't read of them not being used ether. Them Indians sure did have a lot of horses for not having any Studs around. (BG) <BR>I have used a Spanish Barb Stud on a couple of four and five day rides with a mix bunch of horses. With little to no problems. In fact I had him at the AMM Nationals this year. Course he is a good horse and you have to be aware of what your ridding at all times. So I think it would depend on the horse and ones ability to handle it. If it's a problem fix it! <BR>I also think a horse was used at all times. Trapping or whenever for if you were without a horse you were on hard times. <BR>Just my two Cents worth. <BR>See ya on the trail. <BR>Crazy Cyot </FONT></HTML> --part1_119.b08a981.297782b7_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Sue MtMan-List: new tread - horses Date: 16 Jan 2002 18:49:18 -0800 >From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: Sue MtMan-List: new tread - horses >Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:16:00 -0700 > >I have not found any specific reference to the use of stallions by Mountain >Men. I found one meager reference: From "Three Years among Indians and Mexicans", by Thomas James, chapter 6, he writes: "This was the work of a few minutes, during which both horses and men were intermingled together in apparently inextricable confusion. The whole drove was taken at the first onset, except a fine black stud which flew like the wind, pursued by a hundred Indians, and in about two hours was brought back tamed and gentle. He walked close by the Indian who had captured him, and who led him by a rope and wished to sell him to me. I feared his wild look and dilated eye, but his Indian master and protector said he was gentle and gave me the end of the rope with which he led him, when the noble animal immediately came near to me as to a new friend and master. He seemed by his manner to have ratified the transfer and chosen me in preference to the Indian. In twenty-four hours after their capture these horses became tamed and ready for use, and keep near to their owners as their only friends. I could perceive little difference between them and our farm horses." Like many have said, even James initially feared the idea of riding the stud. Thanx Darlings, Sue Raven _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for a ball mold Date: 16 Jan 2002 21:09:45 -0600 Sorry if this is not the place for this, but I am having a time finding a .520 round ball mold. Anybody got a idea? Thanks, Nick Nick Mine is a Lyman but their web page doesn't show a .520. You might check some long-time Lyman dealers and try to find one. A good machinist might be able to enlarge a smaller caliber mold but I'm sure there are folks on the list more informed about than I. Good luck Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for a ball mold Date: 16 Jan 2002 20:15:38 -0700 Rapine makes a dandy .520 mold. I've got one and used it a fair bit. Allen At 05:16 PM 1/16/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Sorry if this is not the place for this, but I am having a time finding a >.520 round ball mold. Anybody got a idea? > >Thanks, Nick > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: new tread - horses Date: 16 Jan 2002 20:33:46 -0700 Sue wrote: My brother, a trainer of horses for a decade, has said around the dinner table discussions that the morgan was a good mountain man's horse. He used to debate with Dad that the myth of the stallion used by trappers would have been both dangerous and have worn out the rider. . . . . Have you ran across many references to stallions being rode? Like the Cyot I have not seen references to stallions being used, but there is almost always a terrible shortage of useable horseflesh in the mountains. The Indians were not fooling when they told whites that they just did not have any extras to trade. I believe the RMFT used what they could get. Ned wrote: Except for the pack trains from St.Louis and the trapper brigades to a new area, I am not sure how much horses were used. Once the trapper was in the area he wanted to trap, horses would have been more of a liability that an asset. The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 days during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me a trapper without some of NedÆs liabilities and I will show you a foot sore, hungry, and poor fellow. There are mentions of ôAmerican horsesö, for instance, Wislizenus (1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often prized possessions. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: French Dumplings Date: 16 Jan 2002 22:01:50 -0700 Out at Fort Hall with the PRP last week end I served up a dish and many a brother asked for the recipe. Since many of those can get it from here I will post it. French Dumplings Warren Ferris when writing about his 1834 New Year dinner told of their more common meals: Our common meals consist of a piece of boiled venison, with a single addition of a piece of fat from the shoulder of the buffalo; except on Sundays, when we have in addition a kind of French dumpling, made of minced meat, rolled into little balls enveloped with dough, and fried in the marrow of buffalo; which is both rich and pleasant to the taste. I found a recipe for Metis bread from a newsletter that Terrance Luff of this list sent me. I had to reduce the salt by half in order to make it edible and that is what I used for the dough. Here goes: Cook a steak Season as you desire. I used black and red pepper and allspice. Cut it up and mince it with a convenient rock or knife handle. Make the dough at increments of 1 cup flour 1/4 cup powdered milk 2 teaspoons salt Water to make a manageable dough Pull off a chunk of dough roll into a ball and then flatten Envelope it around a ball of meat Drop in hot oil I used a small cast iron pot because I have a shortage of tinware, and I can not vouch for all the ingredients in my recipe but you could vary it to your own level of authenticity. They was good stuff. Went well with Mike PowellÆs buffalo balls. I can not wait fer to try huckleberries in place of the meat. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for a ball mold Date: 17 Jan 2002 04:40:33 -0500 Dixie gun works has a mold that comes in one thousands increments ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French Dumplings Date: 17 Jan 2002 12:14:03 +0000 Howdy Wynn, What do you mean "vary it to your own level of authenticity," didn't they have powdered milk on the trade list for the Upper Missouri Outfit in 1810? :) Thanks for the recipes, they DO sound good. Kinda like lttle meat pies. Don in the Ohio Country >From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: Hist mail <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: French Dumplings >Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:01:50 -0700 > >Out at Fort Hall with the PRP last week end I served up a dish and many >a brother asked for the recipe. Since many of those can get it from >here I will post it. > >French Dumplings > >Warren Ferris when writing about his 1834 New Year dinner told of their >more common meals: > >Our common meals consist of a piece of boiled venison, with a single >addition of a piece of fat from the shoulder of the buffalo; except on >Sundays, when we have in addition a kind of French dumpling, made of >minced meat, rolled into little balls enveloped with dough, and fried in >the marrow of buffalo; which is both rich and pleasant to the taste. > >I found a recipe for Metis bread from a newsletter that Terrance Luff of >this list sent me. I had to reduce the salt by half in order to make it >edible and that is what I used for the >dough. Here goes: > >Cook a steak >Season as you desire. I used black and red pepper and allspice. >Cut it up and mince it with a convenient rock or knife handle. >Make the dough at increments of > 1 cup flour > 1/4 cup powdered milk > 2 teaspoons salt > Water to make a manageable dough >Pull off a chunk of dough roll into a ball and then flatten >Envelope it around a ball of meat >Drop in hot oil > >I used a small cast iron pot because I have a shortage of tinware, and I >can not vouch for all the ingredients in my recipe but you could vary it >to your own level of authenticity. They was good stuff. Went well with >Mike PowellÆs buffalo balls. > >I can not wait fer to try huckleberries in place of the meat. > >Wynn Ormond > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French Dumplings Date: 17 Jan 2002 07:13:35 -0500 On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:01:50 -0700 "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> writes: > > I can not wait fer to try huckleberries in place of the meat. > Wynn Ormond huckelberry dumplins---or dewberry dumplins---sounds like a 1800 version of a fried pie but smaller---made me hungry just thinking of them---goin to get the better half to make up a batch---I wonder if grape or apple ones would be good---best not let my better half get started she might turn me int a chubby "old" person---as she knows I like my fruit stuff thanks for sharing--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a later day buckskinner Date: 17 Jan 2002 07:32:35 -0700 Buck, Give me youre phone number off list, so that patch can call you. at= olebjensen@earthlink.net Ole ---------- >From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a later day buckskinner >Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002, 3:14 PM > >Frank, > >There have been several books written about Sylvan Hart and dozen of >articles about him and his life style on the Salmon River in Idaho, Dick >"Keelboat" Whitmer (AMM brother, now gone to the other side with Sylvan) was >a personal friend of Hart's, Dick showed me several muzzle loading pistols >and a couple of knives that Sylvan had made and gave him. His work was not >the neatest, but when one considers the working conditions and material he >had at hand - then they where probably pretty darn good. > >Take care, >Buck Conner >"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com> >To: "hist_text-digest" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 11:45 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: a later day buckskinner > > >> An interesting story in the March issue of Hunting Magazine about a >> fellow nicknamed Buckskin Bill who died in 1980. The story is by Grits >> Gresham and can be seen at: >> >http://www.huntingmag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=324&intArticleID=1762 >> >> Frank G. Fusco >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Double Edge Forge Date: 17 Jan 2002 17:45:40 -0500 (insert appropriate trumpet music here) As of today, Double Edge Forge is back in operation and in full production. (not bad for only 2 walls..<G>) And accepting orders (hint,hint) . I want to that y'all that have pending orders for you patience, your items are first on the list and you will be notified soon of the status. Excuse the cross-post, please Thanks Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: A Bawdy Tale Date: 17 Jan 2002 19:56:11 -0700 On Tuesday one of our suppliers took us to lunch. Went to Maddox, a real nice fancy home town steak house that serves buffalo steaks. So there we are a bunch of construction types and pipe suppliers setting in a busy restaurant. After ordering buffalo I could not help mentioning that I had eaten different parts of buff this last weekend. Of course, it did not take them long to figure out which parts. As to be expected someone asked what oysters were like. I told them it was pretty good, very tender, more like veal than beef. Then I give them a good pause to chew on it a little then I said, ôBut IÆll tell ya, next time IÆm going to kill the damn thing first.ö James Beckworth wouldÆa been proud. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Bawdy Tale Date: 18 Jan 2002 02:55:47 +0000 Heh, Heh, Yep and Bridger and Meek would have been proud of ya too. Don >From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: Hist mail <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: A Bawdy Tale >Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:56:11 -0700 > >On Tuesday one of our suppliers took us to lunch. Went to Maddox, a >real nice fancy home town steak house that serves buffalo steaks. So >there we are a bunch of construction types and pipe suppliers setting in >a busy restaurant. After ordering buffalo I could not help mentioning >that I had eaten different parts of buff this last weekend. Of course, >it did not take them long to figure out which parts. > >As to be expected someone asked what oysters were like. I told them it >was pretty good, very tender, more like veal than beef. Then I give >them a good pause to chew on it a little then I said, ôBut IÆll tell ya, >next time IÆm going to kill the damn thing first.ö > >James Beckworth wouldÆa been proud. > >Wynn Ormond > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: not historical just for grins, but true of how we all treat history at one time or another Date: 17 Jan 2002 22:28:04 EST Forgive me but sometimes we all, myself included get a little up tight and need a smile concerning our historical hobby. My wife forwarded this to me on the road > >From the pages of Field and Stream. > > (R-R-R-I-I-N-N-N-G-G-G) > > MAN: Hello, Lone Wolf Blackpowder Emporium, "Lobo" speakin'. What can I do for ya' pilgrim? > CALLER: Hi Lobo. Filbert-"Big Griz" Stemmish here. A fella I met at a rondezvous said i should call your outfit next time I need to buy some authentic gear. > LOBO: Okay, whatcha need, Big Griz? > GRIZ: Well, quite a bit. My outfits are showing a lot of trail wear, what with all the blackpowder hunting I do, plus the rondezvous and reenactments and such. Thing is though, I'm a real purist, so all the stuff I use has to be legit, you know, authentic. It's all gotta be done the old way, nothing modern or phony, just the real mccoy. > LOBO: You've come to the right place, big Griz. That's our specialty-- Exact reproduction in everything! What's your first item? > GRIZ: Well, I need a new set of buckskins... > LOBO: What style? > GRIZ: Mountain Man-- Early fur trade period, southern Rockies, ah, made with brain-tanned Wyoming elk, hand sewn with genuine sinew-- none of that waxed nylon look-alike stuff. Size, ah, 44 long, 33-inch inseam on the trousers, heavy on the fringe. Oh yeah, and I want the parts cut from the hides using a forged Green River knife, Dadley pattern blade. No scissors! > LOBO: No problem, we've got'em in stock. How about some beadwork? You get 20 percent off any beadwork when you buy a complete set of 'skins. > GRIZ: Are the beads genuine, hand-blown Venetian "seed" beads? > LOBO: You betcha, pilgrim! > GRIZ: Okay. give me a two inch strip down each sleeve, cobalt blue and white, Lakota style, hand stitched with No.401 English cotton trade thread. > LOBO: How about waterproofing? Hand-rendered bear grease, tallow- beeswax blend, or Scotchgard(laughter) Jus' kiddin! > GRIZ: Heavy on the bear grease, ah, grizzly if ya got it, but black'll do. > LOBO: Okay, what next? > GRIZ: Well...two pair of moccasins. Plains Indian style--sinew-sewn elk, size 12-13 wide. No beads, light fringe. > LOBO: How're ya set for headgear? We can work something out on one of our full-pelt coyote hats. They were real common among the mountain men. > GRIZ: Are they eastern or western coyote? > LOBO: Think they're eastern. > GRIZ: Sorry, it's gotta be western. Told you, I'm a purist! > LOBO: That's the only way to be. What else? > GRIZ: I'd like half a dozen 5/8-inch flints, but they've gotta be english, hand-knapped--not machine cut--and medium grey. > LOBO: We've got'em. What else, pilgrim? > GRIZ: Well, i just lost my patch knife... Have ya got any that are hand-forged near St.Louis an' have a linseed oiled oak handle that's held on with two rough-hammered brass rivets? Oh yeah, and with a sheath that's barktanned calfskin and harness stitched with linen thread about ten stitches to the inch? > LOBO: How many do you want? > GRIZ: Just one. > LOBO: Anything else? > GRIZ: I'd like 300 .50 caliber balls, but they've gotta be pure lead, hand cast from a single cavity mold over a cottonwood fire. > LOBO: Those only come in a poke of 500. > GRIZ: Oh, are the pokes hand-sewn? > LOBO: Yep. > GRIZ: Okay. > LOBO Next? > GRIZ: Ten pounds of pemmican--the pre-1870 recipe. Also gimme 15 pounds of parched corn, ah, Indian blue to be specific. > LOBO: Anything else? Possibles pouch? hatchet? Ramrod? Calico? Trade silver? Beads? > GRIZ: No thanks. Just give me the total. > LOBO: I'll figure that out when I get your order. > GRIZ:When you get my order? What do you mean? > LOBO: I only use the phone as a customer convenience-- to let you know if we've got what you're looking for, but we only accept orders that are hand-written in India ink with a quill on parchment. Gotta be hand- delivered by horse. > GRIZ: My God, that'll take forever! I need this stuff by the end of the week! I wanted it shipped second day FedEX or UPS! > LOBO: We don't use 'em. > GRIZ: You don't use 'em? Well, when would my order show up? > LOBO: Oh, could be six, maybe nine months. Depends on whether the mule train has any trouble with snow in the mountain passes. Word has it the southern Sierras are--- > GRIZ: Mule train!? Mule train! You ship by ^^&*#$$^ mule train?!?! > LOBO: Sure do pilgrim, Whatja expect--- we're purists, too > GRIZ: Aaaggh, #@*#@. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: not historical just for grins, but true of how we all treat history at one time or another Date: 17 Jan 2002 22:11:04 -0700 That's a great one! Thanks for sharing..... Teton On Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:28:04 EST CTOAKES@aol.com writes: > Forgive me but sometimes we all, myself included get a little up > tight and need a smile concerning our historical hobby. My wife > forwarded this to me on the road > >From the pages of Field and > Stream. > > > > (R-R-R-I-I-N-N-N-G-G-G) > > > > MAN: Hello, Lone Wolf Blackpowder Emporium, "Lobo" speakin'. What > > can I do > for ya' pilgrim? > > CALLER: Hi Lobo. Filbert-"Big Griz" Stemmish here. A fella I met > at > a > rondezvous said i should call your outfit next time I need to buy > some > authentic gear. > > LOBO: Okay, whatcha need, Big Griz? > > GRIZ: Well, quite a bit. My outfits are showing a lot of trail > wear, what > with all the blackpowder hunting I do, plus the rondezvous and > reenactments > and such. Thing is though, I'm a real purist, so all the stuff I use > > has to > be legit, you know, authentic. It's all gotta be done the old way, > nothing > modern or phony, just the real mccoy. > > LOBO: You've come to the right place, big Griz. That's our > specialty-- > Exact reproduction in everything! What's your first item? > > GRIZ: Well, I need a new set of buckskins... > > LOBO: What style? > > GRIZ: Mountain Man-- Early fur trade period, southern Rockies, ah, > > made > with brain-tanned Wyoming elk, hand sewn with genuine sinew-- none > of > that > waxed nylon look-alike stuff. Size, ah, 44 long, 33-inch inseam on > the > trousers, heavy on the fringe. Oh yeah, and I want the parts cut > from > the > hides using a forged Green River knife, Dadley pattern blade. No > scissors! > > LOBO: No problem, we've got'em in stock. How about some beadwork? > > You get > 20 percent off any beadwork when you buy a complete set of 'skins. > > GRIZ: Are the beads genuine, hand-blown Venetian "seed" beads? > > LOBO: You betcha, pilgrim! > > GRIZ: Okay. give me a two inch strip down each sleeve, cobalt blue > > and > white, Lakota style, hand stitched with No.401 English cotton trade > thread. > > LOBO: How about waterproofing? Hand-rendered bear grease, tallow- > > beeswax > blend, or Scotchgard(laughter) Jus' kiddin! > > GRIZ: Heavy on the bear grease, ah, grizzly if ya got it, but > black'll do. > > LOBO: Okay, what next? > > GRIZ: Well...two pair of moccasins. Plains Indian > style--sinew-sewn > elk, > size 12-13 wide. No beads, light fringe. > > LOBO: How're ya set for headgear? We can work something out on one > > of our > full-pelt coyote hats. They were real common among the mountain men. > > > GRIZ: Are they eastern or western coyote? > > LOBO: Think they're eastern. > > GRIZ: Sorry, it's gotta be western. Told you, I'm a purist! > > LOBO: That's the only way to be. What else? > > GRIZ: I'd like half a dozen 5/8-inch flints, but they've gotta be > > english, > hand-knapped--not machine cut--and medium grey. > > LOBO: We've got'em. What else, pilgrim? > > GRIZ: Well, i just lost my patch knife... Have ya got any that are > > hand-forged near St.Louis an' have a linseed oiled oak handle that's > > held on > with two rough-hammered brass rivets? Oh yeah, and with a sheath > that's > barktanned calfskin and harness stitched with linen thread about ten > > stitches to the inch? > > LOBO: How many do you want? > > GRIZ: Just one. > > LOBO: Anything else? > > GRIZ: I'd like 300 .50 caliber balls, but they've gotta be pure > lead, hand > cast from a single cavity mold over a cottonwood fire. > > LOBO: Those only come in a poke of 500. > > GRIZ: Oh, are the pokes hand-sewn? > > LOBO: Yep. > > GRIZ: Okay. > > LOBO Next? > > GRIZ: Ten pounds of pemmican--the pre-1870 recipe. Also gimme 15 > pounds of > parched corn, ah, Indian blue to be specific. > > LOBO: Anything else? Possibles pouch? hatchet? Ramrod? Calico? > Trade > silver? Beads? > > GRIZ: No thanks. Just give me the total. > > LOBO: I'll figure that out when I get your order. > > GRIZ:When you get my order? What do you mean? > > LOBO: I only use the phone as a customer convenience-- to let you > > know if > we've got what you're looking for, but we only accept orders that > are > hand-written in India ink with a quill on parchment. Gotta be hand- > > delivered > by horse. > > GRIZ: My God, that'll take forever! I need this stuff by the end > of > the > week! I wanted it shipped second day FedEX or UPS! > > LOBO: We don't use 'em. > > GRIZ: You don't use 'em? Well, when would my order show up? > > LOBO: Oh, could be six, maybe nine months. Depends on whether the > > mule > train has any trouble with snow in the mountain passes. Word has it > > the > southern Sierras are--- > > GRIZ: Mule train!? Mule train! You ship by ^^&*#$$^ mule train?!?! > > > LOBO: Sure do pilgrim, Whatja expect--- we're purists, too > > GRIZ: Aaaggh, #@*#@. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Bawdy Tale Date: 17 Jan 2002 23:20:51 -0700 At 07:56 PM 1/17/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >James Beckworth would'a been proud. > >Wynn Ormond Heck, Wynn, I'm proud of ya for that one! Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: looking for ball mould Date: 18 Jan 2002 07:25:39 -0600 Nick asked, <I am having a time finding a .520 round ball mold. Anybody got a idea?> Nick, good ole Dixie Gun Works will make a simple mould at a reasonable price. Or try Jeff Tanner in England, find him at: http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/ Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Bawdy Tale Date: 18 Jan 2002 07:37:26 -0500 On Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:56:11 -0700 "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> writes: > James Beckworth wouldÆa been proud. > > Wynn Ormond now that was a tail worth telling ---bet james was grinning ear to ear in the hereafter of the shining mountains---shaking his head and saying " WAAh pilgrems eat pork not tasty buff or the pride of the high country" thanks for sharing darn good story-- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Bawdy Tale Date: 18 Jan 2002 16:01:14 EST In a message dated 1/17/02 6:48:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,=20 leona3@sourceoneinternet.com writes: Knowing this guy, this is a true story! NM << On Tuesday one of our suppliers took us to lunch. Went to Maddox, a real nice fancy home town steak house that serves buffalo steaks. So there we are a bunch of construction types and pipe suppliers setting in a busy restaurant. After ordering buffalo I could not help mentioning that I had eaten different parts of buff this last weekend. Of course, it did not take them long to figure out which parts. =20 As to be expected someone asked what oysters were like. I told them it was pretty good, very tender, more like veal than beef. Then I give them a good pause to chew on it a little then I said, =E2=80=9CBut I=E2=80= =99ll tell ya, next time I=E2=80=99m going to kill the damn thing first.=E2=80=9D =20 James Beckworth would=E2=80=99a been proud. >> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: a later day buckskinner Date: 18 Jan 2002 21:24:48 -0600 Interesting article.....seems that I have read about Mr Hart somewhere along the line. Amazon has a whole list of dealers with copies of the book mentioned in the article. From $5 to $40. Click here: http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/search-handle-url/ix%3Dfixed-price%26fqp%3D status%01open%02enddate%010a-%02browse%0168293%02keywords%01The%20last%20of% 20the%20Mountain%20Men%26nsp%3Dhotbox%01hotstore%02store%01zshops-rare-books %26pg%3D1/002-2851886-9391258 Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 12:45 PM > An interesting story in the March issue of Hunting Magazine about a > fellow nicknamed Buckskin Bill who died in 1980. The story is by Grits > Gresham and can be seen at: > http://www.huntingmag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=324&intArticleID=1762 > > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" <pwjones@myexcel.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Date: 19 Jan 2002 15:02:07 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C4_01C1A0FA.43380EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade QuarterlyJoe, Have not received the check you were going to mail this past Monday. Is = there a problem? Regards, Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Brandl=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 9:57 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Adress is Joe Brandl 1416 Warm Springs Drive PO Box 777 Dubois, WY 82513 307-455-2440 --=20 Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture = 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ------=_NextPart_000_00C4_01C1A0FA.43380EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade = Quarterly</TITLE> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <STYLE type=3Dtext/css>BLOCKQUOTE { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px } DL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px } LI { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px } </STYLE> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3314.2100" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Joe,</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Have not received the check you were going = to mail=20 this past Monday. Is there a problem?</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Regards,</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Paul</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A href=3D"mailto:jbrandl@wyoming.com" title=3Djbrandl@wyoming.com>Joe = Brandl</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 13, 2002 = 9:57=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: The = Museum of=20 the Fur Trade Quarterly</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>Adress is</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B><BR></B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>Joe Brandl</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>1416 Warm Springs Drive</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>PO Box 777</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>Dubois, WY 82513</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>307-455-2440</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV>-- <BR>Have a look at our web site @ <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.absarokawesterndesign.com">www.absarokawesterndesign.c= om</A><BR>Call=20 us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture=20 307-455-2440<BR>New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're=20 great!!</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_00C4_01C1A0FA.43380EE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: -horses of the fur trade & Stallion Date: 19 Jan 2002 17:12:50 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1A10C.865B62A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy Cyot, We totally agree on the Indian Horse and the Spanish Barb. I have just = put an article on my web site,=20 www.thefurtrapper.com about the use and distribution of the Indian = Horse. I would appreciate it if you would look at it with a real = critical eye and give me your comments.=20 I don't have an exact date, but Indians were castrating large numbers of = their horses probably by the mid to late 1700s. In Ewers' book, The = Horse in Blackfoot Indian Culture, there is a good description of = castration page 56-57. I saw my first Spanish Barb horses in Texas a month ago while doing the = research for my article. It was a real treat to see them. Ned neddins@silverstar.com ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1A10C.865B62A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Crazy Cyot,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">We totally agree on the Indian Horse and = the=20 Spanish Barb. I have just put an article on my web site,=20 <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"><A=20 href=3D"http://www.thefurtrapper.com/">www.thefurtrapper.com</A> </F= ONT>about=20 the use and distribution of the Indian Horse. I would appreciate it if = you=20 would look at it with a real critical eye and give me your = comments. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New">I don't have an exact = date, but=20 Indians were castrating large numbers of their horses probably by the = mid=20 to late 1700s. In Ewers' book, The Horse in Blackfoot = Indian=20 Culture, there is a good description of castration page=20 56-57.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">I saw my first Spanish Barb horses in = Texas a=20 month ago while doing the research for my article. It was a = real treat=20 to see them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Ned</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"><A=20 href=3D"mailto:neddins@silverstar.com">neddins@silverstar.com</A></FONT><= /DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1A10C.865B62A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: Sue MtMan-List: new tread - horses Date: 19 Jan 2002 17:40:53 -0700 Sue, I appreciate your comments and view point. James also went on to say that the Indians drove the herd of wild horses by hidden Indians on the ground, and that they roped them around the neck as they run by. Ask your brother what he thinks about roping a wild horse around the neck while it is running away from you, and then having it tame and ready for use in 24 hours, 24 days, or in the vast majority of cases, 240 days. Take Care, Ned ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Date: 19 Jan 2002 18:32:50 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1A117.B2F365A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade QuarterlyPaul mail him off = the list, thanks. Buck. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul Jones=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 2:02 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Joe, Have not received the check you were going to mail this past Monday. = Is there a problem? Regards, Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Brandl=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 9:57 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Adress is Joe Brandl 1416 Warm Springs Drive PO Box 777 Dubois, WY 82513 307-455-2440 --=20 Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture = 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1A117.B2F365A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade = Quarterly</TITLE> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <STYLE type=3Dtext/css>BLOCKQUOTE { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } DL { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } UL { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } OL { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } LI { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } </STYLE> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><STRONG>Paul mail him off = the list,=20 thanks.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = size=3D2><STRONG>Buck.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = size=3D2></FONT></EM> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Dpwjones@myexcel.com = href=3D"mailto:pwjones@myexcel.com">Paul Jones</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 19, = 2002 2:02=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: The = Museum of=20 the Fur Trade Quarterly</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Joe,</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Have not received the check you were going = to mail=20 this past Monday. Is there a problem?</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Regards,</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Paul</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Djbrandl@wyoming.com = href=3D"mailto:jbrandl@wyoming.com">Joe=20 Brandl</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 13, = 2002 9:57=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: The = Museum of=20 the Fur Trade Quarterly</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>Adress is</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B><BR></B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>Joe Brandl</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>1416 Warm Springs Drive</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>PO Box 777</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>Dubois, WY 82513</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D-1><B>307-455-2440</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV>-- <BR>Have a look at our web site @ <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.absarokawesterndesign.com">www.absarokawesterndesign.c= om</A><BR>Call=20 us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture=20 307-455-2440<BR>New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - = ther're=20 great!!</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1A117.B2F365A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Date: 19 Jan 2002 10:56:13 -0700 --============_-1200659520==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" No, actually, I was waiting for box with note telling how much to include for postage and your address. sorry for any mix up, i can send check next week joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! --============_-1200659520==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" <!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <html><head><style type="text/css"></style><title>Re: MtMan-List: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly</title></head><body> <div><font size="-1"><b>No, actually, I was waiting for box with note telling how much to include for postage and your address. sorry for any mix up, i can send check next week</b></font></div> <div><font size="-1"><b>joe</b></font></div> <div>-- <br> Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com<br> Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440<br> New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!</div> </body> </html> --============_-1200659520==_ma============-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 20 Jan 2002 07:42:38 -0700 Wynn, You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 days during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot sore, hungry, and poor fellow. There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus (1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often prized possessions. I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about these things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses: .we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks - Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page 21. .On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East, their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublette, Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog. .the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procure snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as I am of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to this quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218. .We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodities, munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page 1. I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references of Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you list these references, please put the source and page number. I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be called handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food save grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, which usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, when once they are acclimated, are superior. What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" horses were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel three or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses, and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians. Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with larger horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small to use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it. This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list the liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country. Take care, Ned ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: RE: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 20 Jan 2002 10:13:26 -0500 IN response to Ned's last posting: purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they >spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. Ned, I am going to assume you have at least scouted out and trapped one beaver. Once you know how to make your sets it does not take long. YOU ever hauled around a years worth of pelts on your back??? Dang things get heavy. >.we continued trapping on foot with fair success> And today, many hunters continue to stalk elk and deer on foot with fair success...once they ride a horse or 4 wheeler into that country and dismount. Horses get you places you want to be that are inaccessible by foot. THEN you walk. >>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)...and set out their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog...would have taken horses if any were there. Sublette and Harris ate the dog.<< I may be wrong, but I believe they left b/c of the dire witner encampment situation and the horses they had were eaten or killed by winter already. I may be wrong on this one. As far as the "larger" American horses...every kid wants a cooler bike than the next door neighbor. Cannot imagine that humans were so much more different about horses back then. It was new, different, desirable, etc. If they were less superior then that was a lesson natives had yet to widely learn. Remember the concept of the "pony raid"? Not just for glory. And, of course, when the brigade you mentioned set out of the Arikara village they had loaded horses packed to the hilt. If one can afford it and can carry it, then it makes sense to take all you can with you. Time spent hunting and killing food is NOT time spent pulling furs out of the water...the ultimate purpose for which they were there. Plus, those foodstuffs were great additional nutrients. Also, it was good preparation for winter when snow may bind them in a camp. These guys were not stupid and thought of many things that may happen and planned for such contingencies. JUST BECAUSE they all started out walking by no means suggests they did not end up riding...as supplies dwindled and all horses were not loaded or even after they dropped supplies in camp and began to break off into smaller trapping parties. AND you quoted only one instance of the brigade walking...show me a pattern. Nah, my friend, those guys rode...maybe not 5 of 7 days, but they rode a lot. Just like working a trapline with truck, 4 wheeler or snowmobile. More land covered and more catches much quicker. They likely had to, you ever seen how quickly an area can be trapped clean of beaver??? I can wipe out a colony in a week of daily trapping. I am sure they experienced similar situations as they worked stream after stream. This proven by the rendezvous records of packs of beaver taken back as years passed. YHS, -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 20 Jan 2002 10:33:49 -0700 Ned, Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5 pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had horses. The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between water............ Allen from Fort Hall country. At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >Wynn, > >You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have >them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 days >during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me >a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot >sore, hungry, and poor fellow. >There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus >(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most >horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often >prized possessions. > >I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about these >things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since >the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they >spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. > >Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses: > >.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks - >Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page 21. > >.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to >their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East, >their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain >Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublette, >Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before >reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog. > >.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procure >snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as I am >of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to this >quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218. > >.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodities, >munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the >company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page 1. > >I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references of >Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you >list these references, please put the source and page number. > >I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between >Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come >originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be called >handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food save >grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, which >usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are >larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, when >once they are acclimated, are superior. > >What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" horses >were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off >the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel three >or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses, >and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians. > > Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with larger >horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small to >use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for >American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it. > >This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list the >liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country. > >Take care, >Ned > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: use of horses Date: 20 Jan 2002 10:51:10 -0700 I always thought Sublette and harris set out on foot with a pack dog, because it was the dead of winter. the snow was deep and food for horses would be hard to come by does that make sense. tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: use of horses Date: 20 Jan 2002 12:41:00 -0700 It was, but I have found no indications that they had horses in Cache Valley that winter. I lived there ten years and it would take a lot of effort to keep horses alive there in the winter time. Ned ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 20 Jan 2002 13:02:51 -0700 I did not say they didn't use horses to get to the trapping areas. My argument with Wynn is that once they split off to trap the individual streams, they stayed put until the stream was trapped out which could be days to weeks. During this time, I have found no evidence they rode their horse five out of seven days. Most trappers had two to four camp tenders with them so one trapper did not pack everything. One of the reasons they didn't use horse once they were where they were going is that horses attracted Indians. Between tracks and manure horses leave lots of sign. The literature is full of trappers being set afoot because their horse had been stolen. Ned ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 20 Jan 2002 13:12:38 -0700 Kent, Once you know how to make your sets it does not take long.****Traps were set late afternoon and re-checked the next morning that is quite awhile. YOU ever hauled around a years worth of pelts on your back???****Did you ever hear of a cache??? Many of which were dug up by Indians and the trappers lost their furs. >.we continued trapping on foot with fair success> And today, many hunters continue to stalk elk and deer on foot with fair success...once they ride a horse or 4 wheeler into that country and dismount.****What does this have to do with trapping furs in the Rocky Mountains from 1824 to 1840?? >>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)...and set out their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog...would have taken horses if any were there. Sublette and Harris ate the dog.<<I may be wrong, but I believe they left b/c of the dire witner encampment situation and the horses they had were eaten or killed by winter already.***You are. .they returned to their old rendezvous site and settled down to outwait the snow and cold winds. From time to time they forged for game, but other wise there were no pressing duties. Sublette was taking the express to Ashley for the supplies needed for the next rendezvous. page 70. My point of this was when the rest of the trappers left the valley in the spring they walked. As far as the "larger" American horses...every kid wants a cooler bike than the next door neighbor. Cannot imagine that humans were so much more different about horses back then. Read: The Horse in Blackfoot Indian Culture by John C. Ewers, The Plains Indians by Francis Haines, and The Indian and the Horse by Frank Gilbert Roe then we can have an intelligent discussion on this. And, of course, when the brigade you mentioned set out of the Arikara village they had loaded horses packed to the hilt.You obviously know nothing about the Astorians. Read Astoria by Washington Irving and Roberts Stuart's Narratives of his Overland Trip Eastward from Astoria. In case you think this does not apply to the fur trade, Hunt left trappers in Jackson Hole and Idaho. AND you quoted only one instance of the brigade walking...show me a pattern. I did Clyman and Tullock Nah, my friend, those guys rode...maybe not 5 of 7 days, but they rode a lot. Just like working a trapline with truck, 4 wheeler or snowmobile***In the original post I said the packers and brigades used horse to get where they were going.. After reaching the area, a trapper and his camp tenders split off and stayed put. It took Peter Skene Ogden with 131 people six days to trap out a valley 3 miles by six miles. More land covered and more catches much quicker.This was the North West Company's scorched earth policy. Simpson believed if they trapped out all of the beaver the Americans would have no reason to go to the Oregon Country. The Americans did not follow this scorched earth policy. I appreciate your comments, but you can not apply today's standards to trapping in the Rocky Mountains in the 1800s. Take Care, Ned ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Horses Date: 20 Jan 2002 13:18:50 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C1A1B5.003F8580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do not want to take up the lists time with this. If any of you have = questions, or want to send me specific references from the fur trade = literature against my position, I would appreciate it. = neddins@silverstar.com=20 Thanks Ned ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C1A1B5.003F8580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">I do not want to take up the lists time = with this.=20 If any of you have questions, or want to send me specific references = from the=20 fur trade literature against my position, I would appreciate it. <A=20 href=3D"mailto:neddins@silverstar.com">neddins@silverstar.com</A> = </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Thanks</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Ned</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C1A1B5.003F8580-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 20 Jan 2002 22:18:22 +0000 If they had horses for the Indians to steal, they musta had horses.(Logic 101)>VBG< Ferris was in Cache Valley quite a bit in the early 1830's and mentions horses and mules often in his narrative. Don in the Ohio Country >From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses >Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:02:51 -0700 > >I did not say they didn't use horses to get to the trapping areas. My >argument with Wynn is that once they split off to trap the individual >streams, they stayed put until the stream was trapped out which could be >days to weeks. During this time, I have found no evidence they rode their >horse five out of seven days. Most trappers had two to four camp tenders >with them so one trapper did not pack everything. > >One of the reasons they didn't use horse once they were where they were >going is that horses attracted Indians. Between tracks and manure horses >leave lots of sign. The literature is full of trappers being set afoot >because their horse had been stolen. > >Ned > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Sue- great horse debate, eh guys. (for Ned) Date: 20 Jan 2002 15:54:19 -0800 <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">Ned,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> I beleive I pointed out in the post that this was seen by James as a dangerous endeavor; studs being what they are. If you read the post initially he wanted no part of the stallion untill he saw that the Indian had gentled him down some. Ned, you know as well as I do, being the daughter and sister of muzzleloaders and hunters, people often embellish the truth in conversation. I get your drift, it is highly possible that James could have lied or told a tall tail about the stud's gentle turn around.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> My brother, said " . . . after a horse is much older than five, dog food is what becomes it's best use. " He said that old Gable movie with Marilyn Monroe, "THE MISFITS", was hard core pacifist and 'bunny hugger' propaganda to satiate an anti-war public after enduring the enemies of WWII. The roping of the horse by Gable with Marilyn's protest he claimed was symbolicly showing the shift of rulership from male aggression toward more 'Femenist subjugation'. We really went round and round on that one as he is from the old school like Dad. Point being, he was making in his philosophical bent, was that he thought the film's message was strongly biased against the only logical use of the older mature wild horse. His words, " Can those wild BLM mustangs, and as sad as it may be, I won't put out $125 a month of feed for a worn out horse". </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">I see your point,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Sue Raven</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag4_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: RE: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 20 Jan 2002 19:05:54 -0500 "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> wrote: >If they had horses for the Indians to steal, they musta had horses.(Logic Don, That is what I thought, too. But, it smelled as if this thing may degenerate into one of those "if I can prove you wrong on one point then you are totally wrong on all points" type of things...and that is not any fun. THAT mode of operation holds no logic at all. And I do not see what my knowledge level of Astor had to do with anything at all. They were loaded to the gills when they left...but like I said...thhhpppffff! on that !! <BG> In perusing a large number of documents regarding the fur trade, can all say that sometimes they rode and sometimes they walked and sometimes they walked with their horses and sometimes away from their horses AND sometime strying to steal their horses back. The widespread use of horses on a dad-to-day basis is just far too widely mentioned in almost all the literature to think otherwise. The fact that such issues as native vs. american horses was an issue even back then reveals the gravity and import the horse had on the rocky mtn. culture at large during the RMFT period. In short, this thread is rapidly going moot!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 20 Jan 2002 18:17:03 -0700 Hey Clint, oops, uh, Ned, Once a man leaves his mark, he's pretty easily tracked. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 21 Jan 2002 02:22:04 +0000 Howdy Boys, C. Kent wrote, "sometimes they rode and sometimes they walked and sometimes they walked with their horses and sometimes away from their horses AND sometimes trying to steal their horses back." And sometimes they ate them.(Horses and Mules) Meat's meat in the mountains, Don in the Ohio Country _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 21 Jan 2002 03:44:59 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A22D.FFB40360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ned, While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow shoe= s you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, living in= the mountains. Then might I suggest you partake of a few like experienc= es and get your head out of the books and actually experience and experim= ent for yourself on what works and what doesn't. The answers will come r= inging true to you as you put the skills of the Mountaineer to the test i= n your life. One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains very far without = a good horse. Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc = all attest to this. Truly, Mike Powell Fort Henry country Upper Snake River Plains =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM =20 Ned, Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5 pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), = and your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a coupl= e miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had horses. The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between water..........= .. Allen from Fort Hall country. At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >Wynn, > >You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not h= ave >them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 day= s >during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me >a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot >sore, hungry, and poor fellow. >There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus >(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most >horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often >prized possessions. > >I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about thes= e >things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Si= nce >the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe th= ey >spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. > >Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses: > >.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks - >Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page = 21. > >.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell= to >their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East, >their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain >Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublett= e, >Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before >reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog. > >.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procur= e >snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as = I am >of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to thi= s >quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218= . > >.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodit= ies, >munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the >company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page = 1. > >I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references o= f >Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you >list these references, please put the source and page number. > >I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison betw= een >Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come >originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be cal= led >handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food sa= ve >grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, w= hich >usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are >larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, = when >once they are acclimated, are superior. > >What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" ho= rses >were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run of= f >the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel th= ree >or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry hors= es, >and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians. > > Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with la= rger >horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small= to >use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for >American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it. > >This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list= the >liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country. > >Take care, >Ned > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A22D.FFB40360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Ned,</DIV> <DI= V>While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow sh= oes you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, living&= nbsp;in the mountains. Then might I suggest you partake of a few li= ke experiences and get your head out of the books and actually experience= and experiment for yourself on what works and what doesn't. The an= swers will come ringing true to you as you put the skills of the Mountain= eer to the test in your life. One doesn't travel in the Rocky = Mountains very far without a good horse. Warren Ferris, Osborne Rus= sell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to this.</DIV> <DIV>Truly,</DI= V> <DIV>Mike Powell</DIV> <DIV>Fort Henry country</DIV> <DIV>Upper Snake = River Plains</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE = style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-= LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Ari= al">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;= FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Allen Hall</DIV> <DIV style= =3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM</DIV= > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Us= e of Horses</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Ned,<BR><BR>Gonna jump in with Wynn he= re. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5<BR>pounds each. = Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and<BR>your r= ifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple= <BR>miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men ha= d horses.<BR><BR>The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking betwee= n water............<BR><BR>Allen from Fort Hall country.<BR><BR>At 07:42 = AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:<BR>><BR>>Wynn,<BR>><BR>>You wr= ote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have<BR>= >them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 = days<BR>>during the trapping season and I will show you three that wer= e. Show me<BR>>a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I= will show you a foot<BR>>sore, hungry, and poor fellow.<BR>>There = are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus<BR>>= (1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that m= ost<BR>>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were = often<BR>>prized possessions.<BR>><BR>>I appreciated your commen= ts because it stimulates me to think about these<BR>>things. Would you= please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since<BR>>the pur= pose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they<BR>&g= t;spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses.<BR>= ><BR>>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses:<BR>= ><BR>>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about si= x weeks -<BR>>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - intern= et excerpt page 21.<BR>><BR>>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bil= l) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to<BR>>their friends and set out (f= rom Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,<BR>>their only traveling = companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain<BR>>Man, John E. S= under page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublette,<BR>>Suble= tte would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before<BR>>= reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog.<BR>><BR>>.the = Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procure<BR>&= gt;snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, a= s I am<BR>>of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of tr= appers to this<BR>>quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West,= Dale Morgan page 218.<BR>><BR>>.We left there (Arikara Village) wi= th eighty-two horses packing commodities,<BR>>munitions, food, and ani= mal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the<BR>>company partners an= d the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page 1.<BR>><BR>>I = could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references of<B= R>>Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. Whe= n you<BR>>list these references, please put the source and page number= .<BR>><BR>>I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good= comparison between<BR>>Indian and American horses.The Indian horses a= re said to have come<BR>>originally from Mexico. They are of a small b= reed, and seldom can be called<BR>>handsome; but they are very swift a= nd hardy, and as they know no food save<BR>>grass, are much more suita= ble for such a journey than American horses, which<BR>>usually grow le= an on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are<BR>>larger a= nd handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, when<BR>&= gt;once they are acclimated, are superior.<BR>><BR>>What is an Amer= ican Horse????? The Military never believed "American" horses<BR>>were= superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off<BR>= >the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel= three<BR>>or four times farther in a day than "the superior American"= cavalry horses,<BR>>and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.= <BR>><BR>> Once Indians were on reservations, the government suppli= ed them with larger<BR>>horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the= Indian horse was to small to<BR>>use as a draft animal. If you have a= reference of Indians trading for<BR>>American horses in pre-reservati= on days, I would really appreciate it.<BR>><BR>>This is a long emai= l so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list the<BR>>liabilit= ies of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country.<BR>><BR>&= gt;Take care,<BR>>Ned<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>---------= -------------<BR>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/= mtman/maillist.html<BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>= hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<B= R></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from the Web. = FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'>http://e= xplorer.msn.com</a><br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A22D.FFB40360-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last reply to Mike Powell Date: 21 Jan 2002 07:57:15 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C1A251.3DBF9160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, I got news for you...what separates me from the vast majority of = historians and "wanta be" mountain men is that I have been there. I live = within two hundred miles of all of the rendezvous sites...I have had = camps buried back in the mountains most of the summer for over forty = years...this is illegal, but no forest service man ever gets that far = out of his pickup...like most of the subscribers to this list must not = do.=20 I did not say trappers did not use horses, but where they actually = trapped, they walked. My whole point to all of this was they did not = ride five out of seven days. Prime pelts were taken late fall and early spring. Are you going to tell = me they rode horses into Grassy Lake, or over Connant Pass, in November = or March. Look out your window at Hurricane Pass (the Grand Teton is = behind it in case you don't know), I went over it once with a pack = string in late July and had to make a trail around a snowdrift to get = into Alaska Basin.=20 The majority of Jed Smith's expeditions were on foot...ever try to ride = a horse across the Salt Flats or the Mohave Desert?? Ferris, Russell, = and Wyeth got here in the thirties which was towards the end of the fur = trade era (1807-1840)...yes they trapped on both ends of this period, = but this was from the first post on the upper Missouri to the end of the = rendezvous system. By the 1830s, most of the mountain men were spending = the winter east of the Continental Divide where they could keep horses. I particularly liked Don Secondine reference to Ferris and horses in = Cache Valley. I said there were no indication of horses there in 1827. = His comment was that Ferris said there were horses and mule there in the = mid-thirties. In another fifteen or so years Mormons were plowing it up = with draft horses. The main thing that stimulated my interest in the fur trade was I live = in the center of it, and have rode a horse over a good deal of it. I = drove a team of mules over South Pass a few years ago, and believe me, = my description of it and what Clyman had to say about it would be vastly = different. Have you ever straddled the head of the Yellowstone, the = Green, or Snake Rivers?? By doing these things, I can truly appreciate = what a hard life it was for the early Mountain Men. One of the problems with this period of history is you cannot totally = relate the early 1807-1830 period with the later period when most of the = histories were written. There are nine accounts of the Battle of = Pierre's Hole. In reading Ferris' account, I seriously doubt if he was = even there. Most of these early writers wrote their books from memory = long after they had left the mountains, and they wrote them to sell. If = the facts were embellished, it made for better sales.=20 I am hitting the unsubscribe button, but if any of you want to seriously = discuss this period, please contact me directly. YMOS (see I have learned something) Ned =20 neddins@silverstar.com ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C1A251.3DBF9160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Mike,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">I got news for you...what separates me = from the=20 vast majority of historians and "wanta be" mountain men is that I have = been=20 there. I live within two hundred miles of all of the rendezvous = sites...I=20 have had camps buried back in the mountains most of the summer for = over=20 forty years...this is illegal, but no forest service man ever gets that = far out=20 of his pickup...like most of the subscribers to this list must not do.=20 </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"><STRONG>I did not say trappers did not = use horses,=20 but where they actually trapped, they walked. My whole point to all of = this was=20 they did not ride five out of seven days.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Prime pelts were taken late fall = and early=20 spring. Are you going to tell me they rode horses into Grassy Lake, or = over=20 Connant Pass, in November or March. Look out your window at Hurricane = Pass (the=20 Grand Teton is behind it in case you don't know), I went over it once = with a=20 pack string in late July and had to make a trail around a = snowdrift to get=20 into Alaska Basin. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">The majority of Jed Smith's expeditions = were on=20 foot...ever try to ride a horse across the Salt Flats or the Mohave = Desert??=20 Ferris, Russell, and Wyeth got here in the thirties which was towards = the end of=20 the fur trade era (1807-1840)...yes they trapped on both ends of this = period,=20 but this was from the first post on the upper Missouri to the end of the = rendezvous system. By the 1830s, most of the mountain men were spending = the=20 winter east of the Continental Divide where they could keep = horses.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">I particularly liked Don Secondine = reference to=20 Ferris and horses in Cache Valley. I said there were no indication of = horses=20 there in 1827. His comment was that Ferris said there were horses and = mule there=20 in the mid-thirties. In another fifteen or so years Mormons = were=20 plowing it up with draft horses.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">The main thing that stimulated my = interest in the=20 fur trade was I live in the center of it, and have rode a horse over a = good deal=20 of it. I drove a team of mules over South Pass a few years = ago, and=20 believe me, my description of it and what Clyman had to say about it = would be=20 vastly different. Have you ever straddled the head of the Yellowstone, = the=20 Green, or Snake Rivers?? By doing these things, I can truly appreciate = what a=20 hard life it was for the early Mountain Men.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">One of the problems with this period of = history is=20 you cannot totally relate the early 1807-1830 period with the later = period when=20 most of the histories were written. There are nine accounts of the = Battle of=20 Pierre's Hole. In reading Ferris' account, I seriously doubt if he was = even=20 there. Most of these early writers wrote their books from memory long = after they=20 had left the mountains, and they wrote them to sell. If the facts were=20 embellished, it made for better sales. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">I am hitting the unsubscribe button, but = if any of=20 you want to seriously discuss this period, please contact me=20 directly.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">YMOS (see I have learned=20 something)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Ned </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"><A=20 href=3D"mailto:neddins@silverstar.com">neddins@silverstar.com</A></FONT><= /DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C1A251.3DBF9160-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: horses Date: 21 Jan 2002 10:57:45 -0600 C. Kent said, <The widespread use of horses on a dad-to-day basis is just far too widely mentioned in almost all the literature to think otherwise.> C. you stated the obvious. In reading this thread I have begun to wonder what the point of it is and where it is going. Mebbe downhill? Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last reply to Mike Powell Date: 21 Jan 2002 12:14:23 EST In a message dated 1/21/02 7:00:45 AM, neddins@silverstar.com writes: << I got news for you...what separates me from the vast majority of historians and "wanta be" mountain men is that I have been there. >> You boys reckon this guy is that fella from over around Missoula...Clint Garret? Kinda sounds like him. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: horses Date: 21 Jan 2002 10:25:49 -0800 It is very well documented that the Astor period was done most of the time using the river system. That implies boats of one type or another. Strange, I never thought these he-man fur trappers capable of carrying all their gear and furs on their backs all the way from Saint Louis or St. Joseph, Mo. to the Rockies. It surprises me how some men idolize their heroes into such myths to the point of not seeing the obvious. No one has yet, brought up the facts that horses were traded and stolen from California to supply mountain men endeavors. A big part of the fur trade. I guess I'll just have to hunt down that material on Walker and Captain Bonneville. It amazes me how some boys stoop to imitating some frustrated female friends I know. Can not you argue and debate intellectually without stooping to " wearing your heart on your sleeves"? _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: MtMan-List: last reply Date: 21 Jan 2002 10:31:22 -0800 Ned, Sorry to see you feel the need to hit the "unsubscribe button". I for one have enjoyed this exchange for the educational benefits I derive. Not being a horse person, it's still interesting to hear what folks who are have to say about the horse and it's use during the Fur Trade. But I'm saddened to say that we can't discuss ideas and share knowledge without sounding pissy about someone's suggestion that our dearest held beliefs might need adjusting. I'm sure it wouldn't be the case around the fire or across the table but here in this medium we seem too often to appear to speak in a manner other than intended. The use of "YMOS" is a throw back to a more civilized age of communication. As always I do remain......... Your Most Obedient Servant Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: rumor squelched Date: 21 Jan 2002 12:41:45 -0600 Concerning a posting several weeks ago, I received the below in response to a request I sent to Wal-Mart management. <<We are not discontinuing the handling of muzzle-loading guns and shooting accessories. Wal-Mart Sporting Goods is a destination point for all customers who participate in the Hunting and Shooting Sports. Thanks, Wal-Mart Customer Relations>> Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Ballistic report Date: 21 Jan 2002 17:01:37 EST Klahowya boys, I'm just back from the butcher wid more buffalo steaks, roasts, ribs, and hamburg than I thought I could pack into a freezer. I also got the round ball back that I didn't have time to dig for. I used a 325 grain, .600 pure lead round ball, in front of 90 grains of 2f powder on the bull. Recovered, it still weighs 325 grains, but mushrooms in size to 1.10 X 1.00 X .30 at it's thickest point.....somewhat larger than a quarter. (The following may not make good reading for wimmins and youngins) The shot at about thirty yards, broke the near leg and rib on entry, hit the top area of the heart, severed the main artery, hit at least one lung, broke another rib on the way out, and stopped at the hide on the far side. The buffalo was down in 20 yards or so... That ain't bad performance for a Tulle, and would be my choice of weapon, for shots at big critters under 50 yards... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Iliff <rwiliff@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: last reply Date: 21 Jan 2002 18:35:25 -0800 (PST) Greetings all, I'm new here and have not posted until now. Please note: Mr. Eddins signed his name to his posts. Warmest regards to you all, Robert Iliff __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Living it on the ground Date: 21 Jan 2002 23:17:52 EST In a message dated 1/21/02 5:43:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: << Then might I suggest you partake of a few like experiences and get your head out of the books and actually experience and experiment for yourself on what works and what doesn't. >> Fellas, I would like to say that I did an overnight on the ground in wet and freezing conditions. I can say that I have done it before in wet and in freezing but never the two together. Cut enough boughs to get you off the ground, put a decent blanket over it, peel off your wet outer layer, put your other blankets on top (after you have built a cheery fire if the terrain and situation allows) and tuck in all the edges to keep out cold-air creep. I have to say I had not slept so toasty and comfy in a long while. Better than my own bed. For those of you who only read about it...get out there and try it!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 21 Jan 2002 22:38:11 -0800 (PST) Guys, Here is my 2 cents. I think what Mike says is right. Experience has more meaning than reading. Besides, do those of you who indicate horses were impractical own or even ride a horse. In my opinion, once you've ridden and taken care of one on a daily basis, it opens up a whole new understanding. I know many who say they have a lot of experience with horses and say they aren't worth the trouble. I disagree; they have no experience with horses! Just because you've ridden doesn't mean you have experience or understanding, even if you've ridden a lot. Something Bill Cunningham said to this group about horses recently rings true. If you go out for a month and live with your horse, you get to know them very well; better than you know most people. That is experience. Something Walt McCurdy, past Capitaine of the AMM once said to me also rings true. Until you've experienced what we do (meaning riding into Rendezvous, trapping, getting out on the ground, etc.) on horseback, you will never know what the experience was really like. As far as did they ride horses, I simply point to the documented art work and journal of Alfred Jacob Miller at Rendezvous in 1837. Almost every scenery picture he painted had a horse in it. Where do you think they came from and why were they there? I can't underscore the importance of horses to the Fur Trade with the exception of maybe the weapons and the traps. Again, just my opinion. Best Regards, Jerry Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 03:44 AM 01/21/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Ned, >While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow shoes you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, living in the mountains. Then might I suggest you partake of a few like experiences and get your head out of the books and actually experience and experiment for yourself on what works and what doesn't. The answers will come ringing true to you as you put the skills of the Mountaineer to the test in your life. One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains very far without a good horse. Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to this. >Truly, >Mike Powell >Fort Henry country >Upper Snake River Plains > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Allen Hall >Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses > >Ned, > >Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5 >pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and >your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple >miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had horses. > >The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between water............ > >Allen from Fort Hall country. > >At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: >> >>Wynn, >> >>You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have >>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 days >>during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me >>a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot >>sore, hungry, and poor fellow. >>There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus >>(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most >>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often >>prized possessions. >> >>I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about these >>things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since >>the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they >>spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. >> >>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses: >> >>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks - >>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page 21. >> >>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to >>their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East, >>their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain >>Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublette, >>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before >>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog. >> >>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procure >>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as I am >>of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to this >>quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218. >> >>.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodities, >>munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the >>company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page 1. >> >>I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references of >>Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you >>list these references, please put the source and page number. >> >>I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between >>Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come >>originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be called >>handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food save >>grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, which >>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are >>larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, when >>once they are acclimated, are superior. >> >>What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" horses >>were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off >>the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel three >>or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses, >>and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians. >> >> Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with larger >>horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small to >>use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for >>American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it. >> >>This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list the >>liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country. >> >>Take care, >>Ned >> >> >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ><HTML><BODY STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Ned,</DIV> <DIV>While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow shoes you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, living in the mountains. Then might I suggest you partake of a few like experiences and get your head out of the books and actually experience and experiment for yourself on what works and what doesn't. The answers will come ringing true to you as you put the skills of the Mountaineer to the test in your life. One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains very far without a good horse. Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to this.</DIV> <DIV>Truly,</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell</DIV> <DIV>Fort Henry country</DIV> <DIV>Upper Snake River Plains</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Allen Hall</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Ned,<BR><BR>Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5<BR>pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and<BR>your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple<BR>miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had horses.<BR><BR>The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between water............<BR><BR>Allen from Fort Hall country.<BR><BR>At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:<BR>><BR>>Wynn,<BR>><BR>>You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have<BR>>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 days<BR>>during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me<BR>>a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot<BR>>sore, hungry, and poor fellow.<BR>>There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus<BR>>(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most<BR>>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often<BR>>prized possessions.<BR>><BR>>I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about these<BR>>things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since<BR>>the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they<BR>>spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses.<BR>><BR>>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses:<BR>><BR>>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks -<BR>>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page 21.<BR>><BR>>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to<BR>>their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,<BR>>their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain<BR>>Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublette,<BR>>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before<BR>>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog.<BR>><BR>>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procure<BR>>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as I am<BR>>of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to this<BR>>quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218.<BR>><BR>>.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodities,<BR>>munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the<BR>>company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page 1.<BR>><BR>>I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references of<BR>>Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you<BR>>list these references, please put the source and page number.<BR>><BR>>I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between<BR>>Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come<BR>>originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be called<BR>>handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food save<BR>>grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, which<BR>>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are<BR>>larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, when<BR>>once they are acclimated, are superior.<BR>><BR>>What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" horses<BR>>were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off<BR>>the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel three<BR>>or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses,<BR>>and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.<BR>><BR>> Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with larger<BR>>horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small to<BR>>use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for<BR>>American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it.<BR>><BR>>This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list the<BR>>liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country.<BR>><BR>>Take care,<BR>>Ned<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>-------------------- --<BR>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR>><BR>><BR><BR><B R>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></ HTML><br clear=all><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href='http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p> > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Date: 22 Jan 2002 07:06:52 -0500 AMM benefit event, a "BUFFALO HUNT" in historic Ft. Wallace Kansas ... The AMM has taken upon itself the task of providing a period hunt (1800-1840) with "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE" - the winner will be able to hunt on 23 sections of the Kansas plains in a primitive setting, as many of our forefather's had experienced, a true muzzle loading hunt that the winner will remember for the rest of his life. Follow this link to learn more and buy chances for a once-in-a-lifetme hunt! http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html D Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html Double Edge forge http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/ Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/ Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/ see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 22 Jan 2002 13:12:41 +0000 Jerry and friends, Well Jerry, it might be "just your opinion" but it is based in fact. So, I'll have to agree with you. One thing that I would have to say about Neds last entry is , Ferris was in the mountains starting in 1830. That's only 3 short years after 1827 according to my calculations. I don't think the "horse culture of the mountains" changed that much in 3 yrs. For an earlier example read about George Droulliard and the Delaware trappers with him. They were off away from the rest of the brigade when they got caught by Blackfeet, and they had to kill their horses for breastworks real quick. Peirre Menard wrote about that event, it happened in 1810. So, I am sorry for Ned getting his hair up, but this list,in my opinion,is to share research and palaver like we're around a big fire. Lots of times there is some augerin' and light hearted jokin'. This list has been a source of education, comaradarie, and entertainment. Thank you Dean Rudy!!! So, like the li' lady said, can you take part without wearin' your heart on your sleeve? Talk to ya all later and have a great day, Don Secondine in the Ohio Country >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses >Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:38:11 -0800 (PST) > >Guys, > >Here is my 2 cents. I think what Mike says is right. Experience has more >meaning than reading. Besides, do those of you who indicate horses were >impractical own or even ride a horse. In my opinion, once you've ridden >and >taken care of one on a daily basis, it opens up a whole new understanding. > >I know many who say they have a lot of experience with horses and say they >aren't worth the trouble. I disagree; they have no experience with horses! >Just because you've ridden doesn't mean you have experience or >understanding, even if you've ridden a lot. Something Bill Cunningham said >to this group about horses recently rings true. If you go out for a month >and live with your horse, you get to know them very well; better than you >know most people. That is experience. Something Walt McCurdy, past >Capitaine of the AMM once said to me also rings true. Until you've >experienced what we do (meaning riding into Rendezvous, trapping, getting >out on the ground, etc.) on horseback, you will never know what the >experience was really like. > >As far as did they ride horses, I simply point to the documented art work >and journal of Alfred Jacob Miller at Rendezvous in 1837. Almost every >scenery picture he painted had a horse in it. Where do you think they came >from and why were they there? I can't underscore the importance of horses >to the Fur Trade with the exception of maybe the weapons and the traps. > >Again, just my opinion. > >Best Regards, > >Jerry Zaslow #1488 >________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > >At 03:44 AM 01/21/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >Ned, > >While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow >shoes >you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, living in the >mountains. Then might I suggest you partake of a few like experiences and >get your head out of the books and actually experience and experiment for >yourself on what works and what doesn't. The answers will come ringing >true >to you as you put the skills of the Mountaineer to the test in your life. >One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains very far without a good horse. >Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to >this. > >Truly, > >Mike Powell > >Fort Henry country > >Upper Snake River Plains > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Allen Hall > >Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses > > > >Ned, > > > >Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5 > >pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), >and > >your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a >couple > >miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had horses. > > > >The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between >water............ > > > >Allen from Fort Hall country. > > > >At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >> > >>Wynn, > >> > >>You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not >have > >>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 >days > >>during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me > >>a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot > >>sore, hungry, and poor fellow. > >>There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus > >>(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most > >>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often > >>prized possessions. > >> > >>I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about >these > >>things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. >Since > >>the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe >they > >>spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. > >> > >>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses: > >> > >>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks - > >>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page >21. > >> > >>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell >to > >>their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East, > >>their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain > >>Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and >Sublette, > >>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before > >>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog. > >> > >>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to >procure > >>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as >I am > >>of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to >this > >>quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page >218. > >> > >>.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing >commodities, > >>munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the > >>company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page >1. > >> > >>I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references >of > >>Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you > >>list these references, please put the source and page number. > >> > >>I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison >between > >>Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come > >>originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be >called > >>handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food >save > >>grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, >which > >>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are > >>larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, >when > >>once they are acclimated, are superior. > >> > >>What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" >horses > >>were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run >off > >>the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel >three > >>or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry >horses, > >>and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians. > >> > >> Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with >larger > >>horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small >to > >>use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for > >>American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it. > >> > >>This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list >the > >>liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country. > >> > >>Take care, > >>Ned > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>---------------------- > >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > >> > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGet >more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ><HTML><BODY STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Ned,</DIV> ><DIV>While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow >shoes you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, >living in the mountains. Then might I suggest you partake of a >few like experiences and get your head out of the books and actually >experience and experiment for yourself on what works and what >doesn't. >The answers will come ringing true to you as you put the skills of the >Mountaineer to the test in your life. One doesn't travel in the >Rocky Mountains very far without a good horse. Warren Ferris, Osborne >Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to this.</DIV> ><DIV>Truly,</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell</DIV> <DIV>Fort Henry country</DIV> ><DIV>Upper Snake River Plains</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> ><DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; >MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV >style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV >style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> >Allen Hall</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January >20, 2002 10:32 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> >hist_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt >Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses</DIV> ><DIV> </DIV>Ned,<BR><BR>Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average >trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5<BR>pounds each. Now toss in a bed >roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and<BR>your rifle and shooting >pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple<BR>miles, in >moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had >horses.<BR><BR>The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between >water............<BR><BR>Allen from Fort Hall country.<BR><BR>At 07:42 AM >1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:<BR>><BR>>Wynn,<BR>><BR>>You wrote: >The only time horses were a liability was when they did not >have<BR>>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out >of 7 days<BR>>during the trapping season and I will show you three that >were. Show me<BR>>a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and >I >will show you a foot<BR>>sore, hungry, and poor fellow.<BR>>There are >mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus<BR>>(1839) >makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that >most<BR>>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were >often<BR>>prized possessions.<BR>><BR>>I appreciated your comments >because it stimulates me to think about these<BR>>things. Would you >please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since<BR>>the >purpose >of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they<BR>>spent >70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the >horses.<BR>><BR>>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding >horses:<BR>><BR>>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for >about six weeks -<BR>>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - >internet excerpt page 21.<BR>><BR>>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette >(Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to<BR>>their friends and set out >(from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,<BR>>their only traveling >companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain<BR>>Man, John E. >Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and >Sublette,<BR>>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the >way, before<BR>>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the >dog.<BR>><BR>>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most >anxious to procure<BR>>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally >so they should not, as I am<BR>>of the opinion they are anxious to bring >over a party of trappers to this<BR>>quarter.Jedediah Smith and the >Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218.<BR>><BR>>.We left there >(Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing >commodities,<BR>>munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) >walked except the<BR>>company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson >Price Hunts Journal page 1.<BR>><BR>>I could go on and on with this, >but since you now owe me 12 references of<BR>>Mountain Men riding horses >five out of seven days, I will stop. When you<BR>>list these references, >please put the source and page number.<BR>><BR>>I fail to see where >this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between<BR>>Indian and >American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come<BR>>originally >from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be >called<BR>>handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know >no food save<BR>>grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than >American horses, which<BR>>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still >American horses, because they are<BR>>larger and handsomer, are much >sought after by whites and Indians, and, when<BR>>once they are >acclimated, are superior.<BR>><BR>>What is an American Horse????? The >Military never believed "American" horses<BR>>were superior. When >raiding >an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off<BR>>the Indians' horses. >The reason being that Indian horses could travel three<BR>>or four times >farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses,<BR>>and >the >soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.<BR>><BR>> Once Indians were >on reservations, the government supplied them with larger<BR>>horses, >i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small >to<BR>>use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading >for<BR>>American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really >appreciate it.<BR>><BR>>This is a long email so I will stop. If you >want, I will be glad to list the<BR>>liabilities of keeping and riding >horses in snow and Indian country.<BR>><BR>>Take >care,<BR>>Ned<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>-------------------- >--<BR>>hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR>><BR>><BR><BR><B >R>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></ >HTML><br clear=all><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : ><a href='http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p> > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Date: 22 Jan 2002 06:53:21 -0700 Hey Magpie, This "Great Buffalo Raffle" is going to be a good one, look at those pictures - that could be one of us, right Dennis. Magpie does this bring back memories. Buck ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 5:06 AM > AMM benefit event, a "BUFFALO HUNT" in historic Ft. Wallace Kansas ... > > The AMM has taken upon itself the task of providing a period hunt > (1800-1840) with "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE" - the winner will be able to > hunt on 23 sections of the Kansas plains in a primitive setting, as many of > our forefather's had experienced, a true muzzle loading hunt that the winner > will remember for the rest of his life. > > Follow this link to learn more and buy chances for a once-in-a-lifetme > hunt! > http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html > > D > > Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain > Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". > > > AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html > Double Edge forge http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/ > Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/ > Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/ > > see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 22 Jan 2002 09:44:02 EST I trap beaver and using a horse where I can. It makes it a lot easier. Beaver aren't light, even if it is just their pelt and if you add in the weight of a few traps it get worse. The horse is a welcome addition. Joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Date: 22 Jan 2002 10:05:38 EST Neat hunt, but I was at an auction the last week end and you could buy a buffalo for as little as $300.00. A kind of do your own hunt if you pleased. Joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Irish Linen Date: 22 Jan 2002 11:20:34 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C1A336.CF54B0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hallo the List I'm in the process of making a shirt out of Irish Linen. My lovely = bride mentioned that I might want to wash and dry the material before = cutting and sewing. How much will Linen shrink? Regards=20 Lee Newbill ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C1A336.CF54B0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1252"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2712.300" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hallo the List</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm in the process of making a shirt = out of Irish=20 Linen. My lovely bride mentioned that I might want to wash and dry = the=20 material before cutting and sewing.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>How much will Linen = shrink?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lee Newbill</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C1A336.CF54B0C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mitch Post <hiparoo@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Irish Linen Date: 22 Jan 2002 11:30:19 -0800 (PST) --- Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> wrote: > Hallo the List > How much will Linen shrink? > > Regards > > Lee Newbill Lee-shrinkage depends on weave,etc. I always wash and dry any fabric for shirts. Hot wash,hot dry. Do this several times-fabric will tend to shrink each time. I have one shirt that shrunk several sizes-the fabric hadn't been pre-shrunk. Pre-shrinking will make all the difference. Respectfully,Mitch Post ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" <pwjones@myexcel.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Date: 22 Jan 2002 12:05:48 -0600 Well, Joe, I guess that would be a way to go. But of course many of us do not have a way to transport the critter (and that could be a fair expense), or a secure place to put it for the hunt (having seen a buffalo take down fences here in Texas, I am reluctant to beg a "favor" from a land-owing friend). So for those of us who want a prime buffalo, meat hide and all, in the right season, without transport or land readily available, the raffle may not be a bad way to go. Just my thoughts. Best regards, ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 9:05 AM > Neat hunt, but I was at an auction the last week end and you could buy a > buffalo for as little as $300.00. A kind of do your own hunt if you pleased. > > Joe > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Irish Linen Date: 22 Jan 2002 12:56:47 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C1A344.401E0F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Klahowya Lee, My experience with linen is that it shrinks almost but not quite as much = as cotton. If you bought a reasonable amount, wash and shrink first then = cut and sew with a loose fit you should have no problems. Loose fit is a = good idea whether the shirt material continues to shrink slightly (which = it can for a couple washings) or you continue to grow as I have. <G>=20 Good luck with your sewing project. Remember, extra long in body and = sleeve, extra room in bodice, extra room in neck opening, extra room at = cuffs. Plan ahead for the inevitable. <G> YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C1A344.401E0F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1252"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2712.300" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Klahowya Lee,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My experience with linen is that it = shrinks almost=20 but not quite as much as cotton. If you bought a reasonable amount, wash = and=20 shrink first then cut and sew with a loose fit you should have no = problems.=20 Loose fit is a good idea whether the shirt material continues to shrink = slightly=20 (which it can for a couple washings) or you continue to grow as I have.=20 <G> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Good luck with your sewing project. = Remember, extra=20 long in body and sleeve, extra room in bodice, extra room in neck = opening, extra=20 room at cuffs. Plan ahead for the inevitable. <G></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS<BR>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C1A344.401E0F60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses-Bad News Date: 22 Jan 2002 15:14:15 -0700 I have re-joined the list. I want to sincerely thank all of you that sent me emails, hopefully, we can have some serious discussions about fur trade history. The rest of you, please except my apology for calling you "Wanta Be's". You are more mountain man than I thought. Your reading ability is on the same level as theirs was. If you are going to reply to a post read everything that is said on both sides before sending your reply. Some of you didn't read what I wrote Mike, or you didn't believe it? In any case let me issue this challenge: I have done more with horses, spent more time in the mountains, and taken pack strings to more place than all of the "Wanta Be's" on this list put together. Now if any of you think you have done more, put up your money or shut the hell up. I round up cattle every fall towards the head of North Horse Creek. We start about twenty miles above the old Fort Bonneville. If any of you want to bring your horse next summer, I will give you a history lesson as to why you can't efficiently trap these streams using a horse except to get you to the mouth of the canyons. ****** Nobody ever said Mountain Men didn't use horses when they were available. They just didn't ride five out of seven days....How much clearer can I state it. ****** One other point in the past several of you have said how important documentation is and I agree. In the future, if you use well documented in your argument against what I have said list the sources and the page numbers, or again shut the hell up. One other point.you "Wanta Be's" come up with so many stupid things it is hard for me to keep track of them.I am not, and I do not know Clint Garrett. Ned ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Date: 22 Jan 2002 15:21:19 -0700 Pablo, Remember some of the pictures I showed you of the power these animals have, they can destroy a stock trailer with out much effort - man do pop rivets fly, can walk through a solid wooden wall of a barn or bend over "T" posts a dozen at a time - and that's not being upset just wanting to go to another area when they want to, all of this makes for good relations with your friend the farmer. If your animal gets loose and like a friend had happen, gets with a herd of prime white faces in season, guess who is buying beefalo's at a steep price. No thanks, I'll buy a raffle ticket and take my chances if a winner with folks that do this for a living - "Muzzle Loading Buffalo Hunts". Take care, Buck Conner ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:05 AM > Well, Joe, I guess that would be a way to go. But of course many of us do > not have a way to transport the critter (and that could be a fair expense), > or a secure place to put it for the hunt (having seen a buffalo take down > fences here in Texas, I am reluctant to beg a "favor" from a land-owing > friend). > > So for those of us who want a prime buffalo, meat hide and all, in the right > season, without transport or land readily available, the raffle may not be a > bad way to go. Just my thoughts. > > Best regards, > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <TrapRJoe@aol.com> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 9:05 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". > > > > Neat hunt, but I was at an auction the last week end and you could buy a > > buffalo for as little as $300.00. A kind of do your own hunt if you > pleased. > > > > Joe > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: censoring/manipulation. . . . horses 1835 Date: 22 Jan 2002 15:08:21 -0800 Gentleman, It is strange that the AMM search tool listed on their site is out. Is there a mechanical problem or webb page change? Or, did some weak mind wish to edit and halt the research available in order to derail the discussion? Can't seem to find 'horse', 'horses', . . . etc. in all of the AMM documents listed in the 'search tool'. Of course everyone knows that mechanical items are subject to go awry. But isn't it a coincidence? Lucky for me that the 'google search engine' can bypass the blockade on the data. Washington Irving's "Captain Bonneville, Chapter 49, first page says: "Their horses, which were turned loose to graze during the day, under heedful eyes, were brought in at night, and shut up in strong pens, built of large logs of cotton-wood. The snows, during a portion of the winter, were so deep that the poor animals could find but little sustenance. Here and there a tuft of grass would peer above the snow; but they were in general driven to browse the twigs and tender branches of the trees. When they were turned out in the morning, the first moments of freedom from the confinement of the pen were spent in frisking and gambolling. This done, they went soberly and sadly to work, to glean their scanty subsistence for the day. In the meantime the men stripped the bark of the cotton-wood tree for the evening fodder. As the poor horses would return toward night, with sluggish and dispirited air, the moment they saw their owners approaching them with blankets filled with cotton-wood bark, their whole demeanor underwent a change. A universal neighing and capering took place; they would rush forward, smell to the blankets, paw the earth, snort, whinny and prance round with head and tail erect, until the blankets were opened, and the welcome provender spread before them. These evidences of intelligence and gladness were frequently recounted by the trappers as proving the sagacity of the animal. These veteran rovers of the mountains look upon their horses as in some respects gifted with almost human intellect. An old and experienced trapper, when mounting guard upon the camp in dark nights and times of peril, gives heedful attention to all the sounds and signs of the horses. No enemy enters nor approaches the camp without attracting their notice, and their movements not only give a vague alarm, but it is said, will even indicate to the knowing trapper the very quarter whence the danger threatens." This took place in June, 1835; as the previous chapter reads 1835. So Ned, this ones for you, in that the writer admits of the winter related troubles and the Indian's lust in trying to steal them. Horses from this reference definitely are a burden as well as an need of both Indian and trappers. Sue Raven _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Nancy McKee" <stitchin@iowatelecom.net> Subject: MtMan-List: exotic prices Date: 22 Jan 2002 17:30:34 -0600 Joe, At the last 'exotic animal' auction that I went to here in Iowa, full grown bull bison were going for 900.00 [ the cows for much less ] and full grown elk were going for 1200.00 and less. When I asked the auctioneer why, he said that when the economy was bad then cattle prices went up and the exotics went down. The next auction will be in the spring and I will be there and curious. Great fun and an education for the little ones! John The Stitchin' Scotsman 100% Hand-sewn Leather Goods. Specializing in the American Fur Trade Era. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 9:05 AM > Neat hunt, but I was at an auction the last week end and you could buy a > buffalo for as little as $300.00. A kind of do your own hunt if you pleased. > > Joe > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" <pwjones@myexcel.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Date: 22 Jan 2002 17:37:05 -0600 Buck, Yes, those photos told the tale well. I have seen a seemingly contented buffalo "walk" through a game proof fence just to smell the flowers on the side of the road. I have also seen a less than contented bull take down multiple barbed wire fences as he headed North, never to be seen again. So, I salute anyone who wants to have their own hunt with a purchased animal. May they have extra lives if the buff decides to make the purchaser a target, and one heck of a lot of insurance if their tbuffalo injures others or destroys someone elses property. Me, I am buying the winning ticket. You bring your camera and watch. Take care of you and yours. Regards, Pablo ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 4:21 PM > Pablo, > > Remember some of the pictures I showed you of the power these animals have, > they can destroy a stock trailer with out much effort - man do pop rivets > fly, can walk through a solid wooden wall of a barn or bend over "T" posts a > dozen at a time - and that's not being upset just wanting to go to another > area when they want to, all of this makes for good relations with your > friend the farmer. If your animal gets loose and like a friend had happen, > gets with a herd of prime white faces in season, guess who is buying > beefalo's at a steep price. > > No thanks, I'll buy a raffle ticket and take my chances if a winner with > folks that do this for a living - "Muzzle Loading Buffalo Hunts". > > Take care, > Buck Conner > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Jones" <pwjones@myexcel.com> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:05 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". > > > > Well, Joe, I guess that would be a way to go. But of course many of us do > > not have a way to transport the critter (and that could be a fair > expense), > > or a secure place to put it for the hunt (having seen a buffalo take down > > fences here in Texas, I am reluctant to beg a "favor" from a land-owing > > friend). > > > > So for those of us who want a prime buffalo, meat hide and all, in the > right > > season, without transport or land readily available, the raffle may not be > a > > bad way to go. Just my thoughts. > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <TrapRJoe@aol.com> > > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 9:05 AM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". > > > > > > > Neat hunt, but I was at an auction the last week end and you could buy a > > > buffalo for as little as $300.00. A kind of do your own hunt if you > > pleased. > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Comraderie Date: 22 Jan 2002 16:59:49 -0700 Mr Eddins, I am Wynn's wife, Gretchen, and every once in a while I glance through these messages to keep up with one of my husband's many passions. I have no documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, polite people, but I would like to believe in the comraderie and good graces that my husband has enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to emulate. I do not profess to understand all the issues that you are feeling defensive about, but in the off chance that perhaps you just don't know, I should tell you just how offensive and abusive you sound. I have always found it to be a poor debate when we stoop to arguing our points with sarcasm and superlatives. If nothing else, sir, please remember that women and children also enjoy reading this list. On a side note, my husband and I have been looking for a chance to herd cattle since the man we used to help every Fall had health problems and had to quit a few years ago. Perhaps we will take you up on your offer. My uninvited two cents Gretchen H. Ormond Ned Eddins wrote: > I have re-joined the list. I want to sincerely thank all of you that sent me > emails, hopefully, we can have some serious discussions about fur trade > history. > > The rest of you, please except my apology for calling you "Wanta Be's". You > are more mountain man than I thought. Your reading ability is on the same > level as theirs was. If you are going to reply to a post read everything > that is said on both sides before sending your reply. Some of you didn't > read what I wrote Mike, or you didn't believe it? > > In any case let me issue this challenge: I have done more with horses, spent > more time in the mountains, and taken pack strings to more place than all of > the "Wanta Be's" on this list put together. Now if any of you think you have > done more, put up your money or shut the hell up. > > I round up cattle every fall towards the head of North Horse Creek. We start > about twenty miles above the old Fort Bonneville. If any of you want to > bring your horse next summer, I will give you a history lesson as to why you > can't efficiently trap these streams using a horse except to get you to the > mouth of the canyons. > > ****** > Nobody ever said Mountain Men didn't use horses when they were available. > They just didn't ride five out of seven days....How much clearer can I state > it. > ****** > One other point in the past several of you have said how important > documentation is and I agree. In the future, if you use well documented in > your argument against what I have said list the sources and the page > numbers, or again shut the hell up. > > One other point.you "Wanta Be's" come up with so many stupid things it is > hard for me to keep track of them.I am not, and I do not know Clint Garrett. > > Ned > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Date: 22 Jan 2002 18:50:33 -0500 " Me, I am buying the winning ticket. You bring your camera and watch." >>Pablo, I will have the winning ticket, as I am pure and virtuous.. and if somehing goes wrong, you and Buck can split my stuff.... (NEITHER of you will get near my weapons or gear beforehand) D Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html Double Edge forge http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/ Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/ Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/ see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Buffalo Raffle Date: 22 Jan 2002 13:01:35 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C1A344.EC1FDFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lee or any other web site owner, Would you consider loading a link to the AMM Buffalo Raffle, I have = enclosed the html script for you to think about it. If you do please = let me know so I can add your link to that page as a supporter. AMM = "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html Take care,=20 Buck Conner Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM] (American = Mountain Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": = http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/ Double Edge Forge http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/ Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/ see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <p><a href=3D"http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html"> Click Here: = "The Great Buffalo Raffle"</a> <br> <p><a href=3D"http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html"><img = SRC=3D"buff22.jpg" height=3D237 width=3D690></a> <p><b><u><font face=3D"Comic Sans MS"><font color=3D"#FF0000">* NOTICE: = THE AMM WILL NOT PROVIDE LIABILITY INSURANCE COVERAGE ON ANY ASPECT OF THIS RAFFLE AND RESULTING HUNT, THE WINNER AND HIS/HER PARTY WILL BE = RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN WELL BEING</font></font></u></b> ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C1A344.EC1FDFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1252"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2> <DIV><FONT size=3D3>Hi Lee or any other web site owner,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3>Would you consider loading a link to the AMM Buffalo = Raffle, I=20 have enclosed the html script for you to think about it. If you do = please=20 let me know so I can add your link to that page as a = supporter. <FONT=20 size=3D2>AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": </FONT><A=20 href=3D"http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html"><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"=20 size=3D2>http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html</FONT></A></FONT></DIV= > <DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size=3D3>Take care, = </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size=3D3>Buck = Conner</FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size=3D2>Visit one or = all these=20 sites, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain Men's) = "<STRONG>Great=20 Buffalo Raffle</STRONG>".</FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"></FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"></FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size=3D2>AMM "The = Great Buffalo=20 Raffle": </FONT><A = href=3D"http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html"><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"=20 size=3D2>http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size=3D2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size=3D2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size=3D2>Buck's Base = Camp:=20 </FONT><A href=3D"http://buckconner.tripod.com/"><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"=20 size=3D2>http://buckconner.tripod.com/</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size=3D2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"><FONT size=3D2>Double = Edge=20 Forge </FONT><A href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1"><FONT=20 size=3D2>http://www.bright.net/~deforge1</FONT></A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size=3D2>Historical = Research:=20 </FONT><A href=3D"http://conner110.tripod.com/"><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"=20 size=3D2>http://conner110.tripod.com/</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size=3D2>Historical = Research &=20 Development: </FONT><A href=3D"http://hrd7.tripod.com/"><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"=20 size=3D2>http://hrd7.tripod.com/</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" = size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size=3D2>see the AMM = site for more=20 supporters of this event.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"></FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, Serif"></FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D1><U></U><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, = Serif">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT></FONT>= </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><p><a = href=3D"<U>http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html</U>">=20 Click Here: "The<BR>Great Buffalo=20 Raffle"</a><BR><br> <BR><p><a href=3D"<A=20 href=3D'http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html"><img'>http://conner110= .tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html</A>"><img SRC=3D"buff22.jpg"=20 height=3D237 = width=3D690></a><BR><p><b><u><font=20 face=3D"Comic Sans MS"><font color=3D"#FF0000">* NOTICE: = THE<BR>AMM WILL=20 NOT PROVIDE LIABILITY INSURANCE COVERAGE ON ANY ASPECT OF THIS<BR>RAFFLE = AND=20 RESULTING HUNT, THE WINNER AND HIS/HER PARTY WILL BE RESPONSIBLE<BR>FOR = THEIR=20 OWN WELL BEING</font></font></u></b></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C1A344.EC1FDFA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20"THE=20GREAT=20BUFFALO=20RAFFLE".?= Date: 22 Jan 2002 19:43:48 EST In a message dated 1/22/02 3:51:51 PM, deforge1@bright.net writes: << I will have the winning ticket, as I am pure and virtuous.. and if somehing goes wrong, you and Buck can split my stuff.... (NEITHER of you will get near my weapons or gear beforehand) D >> Haaaaaa..... How about you boys just gemme the winning ticket, half yer=20 stuff, and I'll shoot the critter for ya? That way nobody gets kilt.....<G>=20= =20 (I may be in trouble now) Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Welcome back Date: 22 Jan 2002 16:52:39 -0800 Ned, Welcome back. Come on, tell us how you really feel...<g>.. I enjoy the horse dialogs that go on here, and we all know that without a little variety, there wouldn't be a horse race. Yours Truly, hardtack > I have re-joined the list. --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Date: 22 Jan 2002 18:42:47 -0700 Probably won't be anything worth picking up after that bull gets done with you and your gear kid. The only bones we'll have to bleach will be your broken limbs, your wife would still probably want your skull for some unknown reason ? <GG> On one hunt we saw a 1000 lb. bull hook his horns inside a half full of grain 55 gal drum and flip it 15 feet into the air, he made it look light, like it was a beach ball - that easy. Think what he could do with a 200 lb. human ? Only kidding Dennis we will have several back up shooters incase the winner doesn't have his own, no one needs anyone getting hurt. Having put down a dozen of these animals since 1978, I never take them lightly, remember they can catch a good quarter horse in the 1st 100 yards (that's over our longest shooting distance) and have the ability to turn on a dime, look at some of the photos - a few got closer than I wanted, so much for planning. Buck ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 4:50 PM > " Me, I am buying the winning ticket. You bring your camera and watch." > > >>Pablo, > I will have the winning ticket, as I am pure and virtuous.. and if > somehing goes wrong, you and Buck can split my stuff.... > (NEITHER of you will get near my weapons or gear beforehand) > D > > Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain > Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". > > > AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html > Double Edge forge http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/ > Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/ > Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/ > > see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 22 Jan 2002 18:10:55 -0800 Wynn's wife Gretchen defended him by saying: "I am Wynn's wife, Gretchen, and every once in a while I glance through these messages to keep up with one of my husband's many passions. I have no documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, polite people, but I would like to believe in the comraderie and good graces that my husband has enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to emulate. I do not profess to understand all the issues that you are feeling defensive about, but in the off chance that perhaps you just don't know, I should tell you just how offensive and abusive you sound. I have always found it to be a poor debate when we stoop to arguing our points with sarcasm and superlatives. If nothing else, sir, please remember that women and children also enjoy reading this list." Isn't that precious? The big strong woman fighting her husband's battles. Ooh, . . . he must be a little itsy bitsy mounty man. In most of the rendezvous enactments my father took me to _ITCHES had the good sense to at least stay out of their world or let them beleive it was their world. Gretchen, they are grown men, coach him at home, do not SHAME him in print. I'm a ERA advocate too, but in the fur trade the males did own the earth, excluding a few matriarchal cultures. Gretchen: "I have no documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, polite people, but I would like to believe in the comraderie and good graces that my husband has enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to emulate." Gretchen, most of the trappers of the past were not of the high integrity you have met in the muzzle loading circle. They were by and large cuttroats and barbarians compared to their counterparts in the eastern settlements. Even Jedediah Strong Smith, the Bible believer, lied to the northwest coast British when he said 'that the American settlers would never cross the mountains.' Christian Bill Williams even ate his partner one winter. Bridger, and Sublete's brother even broke their word to Wyeth as they did not honor the verbal binding agreement with Wyeth regarding the goods he brought for the rendezvous. Based on the camps I've attended, most of the Mountain Men had they had liquor abundantly would most likely have the a simular problem with liquor as Indians and others do today. Yes, hun, you need to read. Sue Raven _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: censoring/manipulation. . . . horses 1835 Date: 22 Jan 2002 19:35:47 -0700 SUE RAVEN wrote: > Gentleman, > It is strange that the AMM search tool listed on their site is out. Is > there a mechanical problem or webb page change? Or, did some weak mind wish > to edit and halt the research available in order to derail the discussion? > Can't seem to find 'horse', 'horses', . . . etc. in all of the AMM documents > listed in the 'search tool'. Ms. Raven I will try not to take offense to your slam at Dean Rudy's fine character. Let me explain the problem as best I can. You will not do well with his search engine looking for words that are extremely common. Like "horse" which is probably meantioned a thousand times in every journal. Wynn Ormond > _____________________________________________________________ > Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Buffalo Raffle Date: 22 Jan 2002 18:28:38 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1A372.9C5F6020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yo Buck...=20 You're about a day late and a dollar short on this one <G> It's already = linked from my main site... but I will look at the script you sent and = see if'n it work better than what I've got. Regards from Idaho Lee ----- Original Message -----=20 From: BARRY CONNER=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 12:01 PM Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Buffalo Raffle Hi Lee or any other web site owner, Would you consider loading a link to the AMM Buffalo Raffle, I have = enclosed the html script for you to think about it. If you do please = let me know so I can add your link to that page as a supporter.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1A372.9C5F6020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1252"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2712.300" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yo Buck... </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You're about a day late and a dollar = short on this=20 one <G> It's already linked from my main site... but I will = look at=20 the script you sent and see if'n it work better than what I've = got.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards from Idaho</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lee</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Dconner_one@email.msn.com = href=3D"mailto:conner_one@email.msn.com">BARRY=20 CONNER</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 22, 2002 = 12:01=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: AMM = Buffalo=20 Raffle</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2> <DIV><FONT size=3D3>Hi Lee or any other web site owner,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3>Would you consider loading a link to the AMM = Buffalo Raffle,=20 I have enclosed the html script for you to think about it. If = you do=20 please let me know so I can add your link to that page as a=20 supporter. </FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1A372.9C5F6020-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 02:53:14 +0000 Dear Sue and Ned,(Clint Garrett?) This is an open forum. Telling people to "shut the hell up" is rude behavior. Uncalled for, so, PLAY NICE!!!!! Don Secondine in the Ohio Country >From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:10:55 -0800 > >Wynn's wife Gretchen defended him by saying: > >"I am Wynn's wife, Gretchen, and every once in a while I glance through >these messages to keep up with one of my husband's many passions. I have >no >documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, polite people, but I >would like to believe in the comraderie and good graces that my husband has >enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to emulate. I do not >profess to understand all the issues that you are feeling defensive about, >but in the off chance that perhaps you just don't know, I should tell you >just how offensive and abusive you sound. I have always found it to be a >poor debate when we stoop to arguing our points with sarcasm and >superlatives. If nothing else, sir, please remember that women and children >also enjoy reading this list." > >Isn't that precious? The big strong woman fighting her husband's battles. >Ooh, . . . he must be a little itsy bitsy mounty man. In most of the >rendezvous enactments my father took me to _ITCHES had the good sense to at >least stay out of their world or let them beleive it was their world. >Gretchen, they are grown men, coach him at home, do not SHAME him in print. >I'm a ERA advocate too, but in the fur trade the males did own the earth, >excluding a few matriarchal cultures. > >Gretchen: >"I have no documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, polite >people, but I would like to believe in the comraderie and good graces that >my husband has enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to emulate." > > Gretchen, most of the trappers of the past were not of the high >integrity you have met in the muzzle loading circle. They were by and >large >cuttroats and barbarians compared to their counterparts in the eastern >settlements. Even Jedediah Strong Smith, the Bible believer, lied to the >northwest coast British when he said 'that the American settlers would >never >cross the mountains.' Christian Bill Williams even ate his partner one >winter. Bridger, and Sublete's brother even broke their word to Wyeth as >they did not honor the verbal binding agreement with Wyeth regarding the >goods he brought for the rendezvous. Based on the camps I've attended, >most >of the Mountain Men had they had liquor abundantly would most likely have >the a simular problem with liquor as Indians and others do today. > >Yes, hun, you need to read. > >Sue Raven > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "pat broehl" <patbroehl@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: UNSUBSCRIBE Date: 22 Jan 2002 19:10:34 -0800 unsubscribe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: WAS Use of Horses-Bad News NOW I take your challenge Date: 22 Jan 2002 22:38:49 EST In a message dated 1/22/02 5:13:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, neddins@silverstar.com writes: << I will give you a history lesson as to why you can't efficiently trap these streams using a horse except to get you to the mouth of the canyons. >> Not every dang body trapped those streams. Not all places are like yours. Just go pull the danged beaver out of the streams and shut up. And take me with you!!! Lotsa Vaqueros and Soldadas were good horsemen as you claim to be...terrible mountaineers...they, too, had a tendency to rile feathers. Let us go and find out whether you and I are true men of the mountain or merely mouthy vaqueros!!! So you are a good horseman...congratulations. We are very proud of you...now take us on a ride to trap beaver!!!! In other words..PROVE IT!!! AND (I double dog dare you) take me with you!!! I will bet you could not throw me on a horse and ride me where I would be miserable!!! I accept your challenge to come out there and ride with you!!! By the way, can I borrow a horse <VBG>!!! -C.Kent PS - Shameful, the lengths a fellow has to go to in order to get invited to ride and see some new country!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Ned, you are right he can't read. Date: 22 Jan 2002 19:47:33 -0800 <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">And he said:</FONT><BR><BR>Dear Sue and Ned,(Clint Garrett?) </P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P>> This is an open forum. Telling people to "shut the hell up" is rude behavior. Uncalled for, so, PLAY NICE!!!!!Don Secondine in the Ohio Country</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">And she said:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Ned, </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">I do not want to be like some of my sisters on the earth or the males whom use women's e-mails, but I beleive since it is obvious he has few reading skills that you should give up discussing anything with this one. I mean Ned, I distinctly heard you say in your last post whom you were not.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">and that is enough of that,</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Sue Raven</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P></div><br clear=all><hr>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag3_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 22 Jan 2002 21:04:40 -0700 MS. Raven, You're WAY out of line here talking to Wynn's wife like that. I'm sure you just bought yourself a whole passel of animosity from list members. You made your bed......have fun lying in it. Todd Glover On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:10:55 -0800 "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> writes: > Wynn's wife Gretchen defended him by saying: > > "I am Wynn's wife, Gretchen, and every once in a while I glance > through > these messages to keep up with one of my husband's many passions. I > have no > documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, polite people, > but I > would like to believe in the comraderie and good graces that my > husband has > enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to emulate. I do > not > profess to understand all the issues that you are feeling defensive > about, > but in the off chance that perhaps you just don't know, I should > tell you > just how offensive and abusive you sound. I have always found it to > be a > poor debate when we stoop to arguing our points with sarcasm and > superlatives. If nothing else, sir, please remember that women and > children > also enjoy reading this list." > > Isn't that precious? The big strong woman fighting her husband's > battles. > Ooh, . . . he must be a little itsy bitsy mounty man. In most of > the > rendezvous enactments my father took me to _ITCHES had the good > sense to at > least stay out of their world or let them beleive it was their > world. > Gretchen, they are grown men, coach him at home, do not SHAME him in > print. > I'm a ERA advocate too, but in the fur trade the males did own the > earth, > excluding a few matriarchal cultures. > > Gretchen: > "I have no documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, > polite > people, but I would like to believe in the comraderie and good > graces that > my husband has enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to > emulate." > > Gretchen, most of the trappers of the past were not of the high > > integrity you have met in the muzzle loading circle. They were by > and large > cuttroats and barbarians compared to their counterparts in the > eastern > settlements. Even Jedediah Strong Smith, the Bible believer, lied to > the > northwest coast British when he said 'that the American settlers > would never > cross the mountains.' Christian Bill Williams even ate his partner > one > winter. Bridger, and Sublete's brother even broke their word to > Wyeth as > they did not honor the verbal binding agreement with Wyeth regarding > the > goods he brought for the rendezvous. Based on the camps I've > attended, most > of the Mountain Men had they had liquor abundantly would most likely > have > the a simular problem with liquor as Indians and others do today. > > Yes, hun, you need to read. > > Sue Raven > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: last reply & horses Date: 22 Jan 2002 21:47:19 -0700 Robert Iliff wrote: > I'm new here and have not posted until now. Please > note: Mr. Eddins signed his name to his posts. > Mr Iliff I know this may hard for you and many others to understand. To explain, many people think of this as a gathering around a fire and believe that if we were actually with another many of these disagreements would not happen. In some cases that may be true, but this fellow who called himself Clint Garrett (he later admitted he lied about his identity) made a point of insulting and degrading everyone. He was not interested in discussing history (although he said he did) he just wanted to stir up trouble. Most grieviously he insulted our wives and our mothers . And that aint something you do to me around a fire. ( I know that Sue may think that makes me less of a man but I happen to like these paticular women) I'm not a religous man but the Bible says something about knowing someone by their fruits. Ned Eddins signed his posts but so did Clint Garrett. There is no doubt now in my mind that the two of them fill the same boots. As Deets, the tracker in Lonesome Dove, said "Maybe I'm wrong but I'm not." I have not defended my stance on RMFT use of horses and near constant traveling in part because men like C Kent did it so well but also because I have no desire to banter with that. . . . (I will take my wife's post into account and not use names). I think the fact that horses were used whenever they were available has been pretty well established. Exceptions being when river travel was more efficient. To argue that they did use horses in trapping because they did not ride right up to the exact spot they set the trap is pretty much a moot point as has been previously stated. So the main argument left is how often were the trapping parties moving far enough to make it worth saddling up. Clyman, (pg 14) who has been quoted as trapping without the use of horses, indeed appears to have spent some six weeks trapping in one area without moving. Of course that was after a Shoshoni camp begger they had been feeding stole their horses. Before that happened they had been traveling pretty regularly. After getting their horses back they traveled enough to get seperated. Does staying put because your mode of transportation left count? Hey Hugh Glass didn't ride all through his big adventure either. One of the best daily records we have is from P S Ogden. Examples: April 1825 Tuesday 26th.-Raise Camp & proceeded over a fine plain for 15 miles Wednesday 27th.-The traps produced but one beaver we crossed the river with our horses. . . . we had for three miles a road of rocks & Stones when we came on a fine level plain & proceeded eighteen miles Thursday 28th.-There being fine feeding for our Horses about a mile in advance we raised Camp & here I purpose to remain two days Saturday 30th.-We took our route down the Stream Sunday 1st May-We raised Camp early (By the way I just picked this spot to start cause it was the beginning of the internet 1825 journal I have no idea how it comes out) Monday 2nd-Early this day we Started our route was over a hilly Tuesday 3rd-As we were on the eve of Starting. . . . obliged us to proceed there Two days stopped five on the go. They were holed up for snow the next day. In 1826 I'll paraphrase journal pg 1 traps in the water 13th Rained out 14 Moving 15,16,17 Moving 18,19,20 Stopped to trap however he comments "One-third of traps are in the rear" and on the 21st says " Three-fourths of trappers are in advance with their traps" 21 & 22 Back on the move Six out of ten but I bet the trappers did not leave their horses when they went forward and backward during the rest days. I have gone on tooo long, excuse me. I want to try Osbourne Russell's journal next. Wynn Ormond > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Banks" <sbanks@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 22 Jan 2002 21:58:03 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C1A38F.DD64B4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael, Experience can go both ways. Read the account of Osborne Russell when = his party came off the Gros Ventre country down onto the Dunoir Valley = and then attempted to cross the Absaroka Mtns. They had two mules and = for the most part they walked and drug the mules over the mountains. In = fact they did this clear to the Stinking Water. Today that trail over = Shoshone Pass is fairly easy due to much work done by the Forest = Service. I have WALKED the route he most likely took and much of the = route is really not fit for horses or mules. Had he not encountered the = two Sheepeater Indians he would have been in for a much tougher trip. = Granted there are many trails through these Wind River and Absaroka = Mountains fit for horses but there are as many places that are not. My = 2 cents Steve Banks=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael Powell=20 To: History List=20 Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 3:44 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Ned, While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow = shoes you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, = living in the mountains. Then might I suggest you partake of a few like = experiences and get your head out of the books and actually experience = and experiment for yourself on what works and what doesn't. The answers = will come ringing true to you as you put the skills of the Mountaineer = to the test in your life. One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains = very far without a good horse. Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat = Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to this. Truly, Mike Powell Fort Henry country Upper Snake River Plains =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Hall Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Ned, Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, = weighing 5 pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't = much), and your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a = couple miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had = horses. The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between = water............ Allen from Fort Hall country. At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >Wynn, > >You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did = not have >them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of = 7 days >during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. = Show me >a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a = foot >sore, hungry, and poor fellow. >There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus >(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that = most >horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often >prized possessions. > >I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about = these >things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a = horse. Since >the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to = believe they >spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. > >Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses: > >.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six = weeks - >Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt = page 21. > >.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said = farewell to >their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the = East, >their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette = Mountain >Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and = Sublette, >Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, = before >reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog. > >.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to = procure >snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should = not, as I am >of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers = to this >quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan = page 218. > >.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing = commodities, >munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except = the >company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal = page 1. > >I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 = references of >Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. = When you >list these references, please put the source and page number. > >I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison = between >Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come >originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can = be called >handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no = food save >grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American = horses, which >usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because = they are >larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, = and, when >once they are acclimated, are superior. > >What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed = "American" horses >were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or = run off >the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could = travel three >or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry = horses, >and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians. > > Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them = with larger >horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to = small to >use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading = for >American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate = it. > >This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to = list the >liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian = country. > >Take care, >Ned > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ----- Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C1A38F.DD64B4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff=20 style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; = BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt verdana"> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Michael,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Experience can go both ways. Read the = account of=20 Osborne Russell when his party came off the Gros Ventre country down = onto the=20 Dunoir Valley and then attempted to cross the Absaroka Mtns. They = had two=20 mules and for the most part they walked and drug the mules over the=20 mountains. In fact they did this clear to the Stinking = Water. Today=20 that trail over Shoshone Pass is fairly easy due to much work done by = the Forest=20 Service. I have WALKED the route he most likely took and much of = the route=20 is really not fit for horses or mules. Had he not encountered the = two=20 Sheepeater Indians he would have been in for a much tougher trip. = Granted=20 there are many trails through these Wind River and Absaroka Mountains = fit for=20 horses but there are as many places that are not. My 2 = cents</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Steve Banks </FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A href=3D"mailto:amm1769@hotmail.com" = title=3Damm1769@hotmail.com>Michael=20 Powell</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>History List</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 21, 2002 = 3:44=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Use of = Horses</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Ned,</DIV> <DIV>While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in = snow=20 shoes you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground,=20 living in the mountains. Then might I suggest you partake = of a few=20 like experiences and get your head out of the books and actually = experience=20 and experiment for yourself on what works and what doesn't. The = answers=20 will come ringing true to you as you put the skills of the = Mountaineer to=20 the test in your life. One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains = very=20 far without a good horse. Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat = Wyeth, Jed=20 Smith, etc all attest to this.</DIV> <DIV>Truly,</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell</DIV> <DIV>Fort Henry country</DIV> <DIV>Upper Snake River Plains</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; COLOR: black; FONT: 10pt = Arial"><B>From:</B>=20 Allen Hall</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 20, = 2002 10:32=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> = hist_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Use = of=20 Horses</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Ned,<BR><BR>Gonna jump in with Wynn here. = Average=20 trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5<BR>pounds each. Now toss in = a bed=20 roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and<BR>your rifle and = shooting=20 pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple<BR>miles, in = moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had=20 horses.<BR><BR>The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking = between=20 water............<BR><BR>Allen from Fort Hall country.<BR><BR>At = 07:42 AM=20 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:<BR>><BR>>Wynn,<BR>><BR>>You = wrote:=20 The only time horses were a liability was when they did not=20 have<BR>>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the = move 5 out=20 of 7 days<BR>>during the trapping season and I will show you = three that=20 were. Show me<BR>>a trapper without some of Ned's = liabilities and I=20 will show you a foot<BR>>sore, hungry, and poor = fellow.<BR>>There are=20 mentions of "American horses", for instance, = Wislizenus<BR>>(1839)=20 makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that=20 most<BR>>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses = were=20 often<BR>>prized possessions.<BR>><BR>>I appreciated your = comments=20 because it stimulates me to think about these<BR>>things. Would = you=20 please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since<BR>>the = purpose=20 of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe = they<BR>>spent=20 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the=20 horses.<BR>><BR>>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not = riding=20 horses:<BR>><BR>>.we continued trapping on foot with fair = success for=20 about six weeks -<BR>>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman = page 30 -=20 internet excerpt page 21.<BR>><BR>>.On New Years day, 1827, = Sublette=20 (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to<BR>>their friends and = set out=20 (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,<BR>>their only = traveling=20 companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain<BR>>Man, John = E.=20 Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and=20 Sublette,<BR>>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. = By the=20 way, before<BR>>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the=20 dog.<BR>><BR>>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are = now most=20 anxious to procure<BR>>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am = equally=20 so they should not, as I am<BR>>of the opinion they are anxious = to bring=20 over a party of trappers to this<BR>>quarter.Jedediah Smith and = the=20 Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218.<BR>><BR>>.We left = there=20 (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing=20 commodities,<BR>>munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 = men)=20 walked except the<BR>>company partners and the woman, a = squaw.Wilson=20 Price Hunts Journal page 1.<BR>><BR>>I could go on and on with = this,=20 but since you now owe me 12 references of<BR>>Mountain Men riding = horses=20 five out of seven days, I will stop. When you<BR>>list these = references,=20 please put the source and page number.<BR>><BR>>I fail to see = where=20 this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison = between<BR>>Indian and=20 American horses.The Indian horses are said to have = come<BR>>originally=20 from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be=20 called<BR>>handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as = they know=20 no food save<BR>>grass, are much more suitable for such a journey = than=20 American horses, which<BR>>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still = American horses, because they are<BR>>larger and handsomer, are = much=20 sought after by whites and Indians, and, when<BR>>once they are=20 acclimated, are superior.<BR>><BR>>What is an American = Horse????? The=20 Military never believed "American" horses<BR>>were superior. When = raiding=20 an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off<BR>>the Indians' = horses.=20 The reason being that Indian horses could travel three<BR>>or = four times=20 farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry = horses,<BR>>and the=20 soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.<BR>><BR>> Once = Indians were=20 on reservations, the government supplied them with = larger<BR>>horses,=20 i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small=20 to<BR>>use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians = trading=20 for<BR>>American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really=20 appreciate it.<BR>><BR>>This is a long email so I will stop. = If you=20 want, I will be glad to list the<BR>>liabilities of keeping and = riding=20 horses in snow and Indian country.<BR>><BR>>Take=20 = care,<BR>>Ned<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>-----------------= -----<BR>>hist_text=20 list info:=20 = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR>><BR>><BR><BR= ><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=20 list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR = clear=3Dall> <HR> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <A=20 href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C1A38F.DD64B4E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 00:50:46 EST --part1_170.793b3ae.297fa936_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sue: I think Todd said it. I have not seen Gretchen post on this list before and the first time she does this is how you treat her? That was a real Blond moment on your part. Crazy Cyot --part1_170.793b3ae.297fa936_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Dear Sue: <BR>I think Todd said it. <BR>I have not seen <I>Gretchen post on this list before and the first time she does this is how you treat her?</I> That was a real Blond moment on your part. <BR>Crazy Cyot <BR></FONT></HTML> --part1_170.793b3ae.297fa936_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 23 Jan 2002 01:19:32 EST --part1_bc.205a0ea2.297faff4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don I Would like the titles of the books your references came from Mark Roadkill Loader --part1_bc.205a0ea2.297faff4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Don <BR>I Would like the titles of the books your references came from <BR>Mark Roadkill Loader</FONT></HTML> --part1_bc.205a0ea2.297faff4_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 02:40:42 EST In a message dated 1/22/02 7:12:30 PM Mountain Standard Time, blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com writes: << Isn't that precious? The big strong woman fighting her husband's battles. Ooh, . . . he must be a little itsy bitsy mounty man. In most of the rendezvous enactments my father took me to _ITCHES had the good sense to at least stay out of their world or let them beleive it was their world. Gretchen, they are grown men, coach him at home, do not SHAME him in print. I'm a ERA advocate too, but in the fur trade the males did own the earth, excluding a few matriarchal cultures. >> Hey Sue, Lighten up a bit! You posted a number of character references that pointed out flaws of some of our "heroes." May I list a few of my heroes (and their character references) for you? Let's see, I think I'll start with a famous murderer ... he was a rich man, a ruler, a king in fact. He was married, but found a woman he had to have. After an adulterous affair, she was found to be pregnant. When he couldn't persuade her husband to come home from the war to be with his wife, (thus covering up his indiscretion) he had the man killed. Sound familiar? His name is King David, you know the one from the bible. The one God called, "a man after His own heart." How about a few others, like: Moses, Paul or even Peter. Two of the three were murderers, but I believe that all four of the "scoundrels" that I mentioned are in heaven. I don't mean to "whip a dead horse" here, but my point is this. Is any one of us perfect? No. Does that mean we shouldn't strive towards something better? Absolutely not! Gretchen, if I read her post right, was simply asking Ned to watch his language a bit. because, as I have no doubt, there are some "children" that read these postings. If I didn't read it right, then I offer my apologies. To the others on this list, my apologies for the length of this post. You know that when you get a sliver, if you don't get it out it will just sit there and fester. The sliver is out. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ YMOS, Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith Boise ID ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 23 Jan 2002 12:26:35 +0000 Howdy Mark, The digital library on the Mountain Men and Fur Trade Home Page is where you may find Pierre Menard's work "Reports of the Missouri Fur Co. at the Three Forks of the Missouri 1810. And I've been reading my own copy of "Life in the Rocky Mountains" by Ferris. Ferris' narrative starts in 1830 and he tells a lot of antecdotes about the land that he travels through(trapper lore and history). Real good read. Don Secondine in the Ohio Country >From: MarkLoader@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses >Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 01:19:32 EST > >Don >I Would like the titles of the books your references came from >Mark Roadkill Loader _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ned, you are right he can't read. Date: 23 Jan 2002 12:35:19 +0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_2182_3b89_24dc Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sue, I also said, "PLAY NICE" Don >From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Ned, you are right he can't read. >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:47:33 -0800 > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------=_NextPart_000_2182_3b89_24dc Content-Type: message/rfc822 From owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:50:26 -0800 Received: from [198.60.22.7] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBE177DF1008D4004315CC63C1607D0180; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:50:14 -0800 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16TENv-0006nE-00 for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:47:39 -0700 Received: from [216.33.149.126] (helo=hotmail.com) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16TENs-0006n9-00 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:47:36 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:47:34 -0800 Received: from 134.197.62.21 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 03:47:33 GMT X-Originating-IP: [134.197.62.21] Bcc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: <F126mZZViaAhs9NiJc60001254d@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2002 03:47:34.0071 (UTC) FILETIME=[B0F0E470:01C1A3C0] Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">And he said:</FONT><BR><BR>Dear Sue and Ned,(Clint Garrett?) </P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P>> This is an open forum. Telling people to "shut the hell up" is rude behavior. Uncalled for, so, PLAY NICE!!!!!Don Secondine in the Ohio Country</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">And she said:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Ned, </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">I do not want to be like some of my sisters on the earth or the males whom use women's e-mails, but I beleive since it is obvious he has few reading skills that you should give up discussing anything with this one. I mean Ned, I distinctly heard you say in your last post whom you were not.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">and that is enough of that,</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Sue Raven</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P></div><br clear=all><hr>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag3_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_2182_3b89_24dc-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: exotic prices Date: 23 Jan 2002 07:59:58 EST At a horse sale last night and the exotic sales was still being talked about. A friend bought a buffalo calf. Talked to at least three people who were at the exotic sale also. All of use were surprised at the prices. Example: Cow and calf entered ring. The split the pair selling each separate. The calf brought more than the cow. Didn't see this one but was told about it by three others. The friend who bought the heifer calf (not the same calf ) paid $300.00. The price of elk at this sale for mature elk started at about $600.00. I admit it was a strange sale but in one way or another every exotic sale I've be to is a little strange in one way or another Joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 09:44:00 EST <<This is an open forum. Telling people to "shut the hell up" is rude behavior. Uncalled for, so, PLAY NICE!!!!!>> Thank You Don Secondine in the Ohio Country, far to often lately I have felt the urge to Unsubscribe due to the derth of egos and pointed sarcasm and the lack of historical research it creates. We all have feelings and we all have egos and opinions but my mother taught me to be polite, considerate. A buisness associate of mine once told me that any time someone got you really mad and you wanted to yell at them, write them a letter, print it out, set it aside until tomarrow, then read it, crumble it up and throw it away. It has served him well in business and life for 70+ years and it can be made to work for all of us. Lets stick to the Hobby and the History and leave the knives it the belt. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes In Western NY ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 10:19:20 EST Thank You C.T. W.S. Boise Id ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: scout canoe trip Date: 23 Jan 2002 08:16:32 -0800 Note that on the Yampa and Green Rivers "High Use Season" starts the second Monday in May and ends on the second Friday in September on the Green and 14 July on the Yampa. Three hundred non-commercial launch permits are available by lottery. Lottery closes 1 Feb. Call the River Office, Dinosaur National Monument (970) 374-2468 08:00-12:00 M-F to request a permit application if you want in on the lottery. B'st'rd Randal Bublitz wrote: > > You mentioned the Green River. Have you done from Green River Town to the > confluence of the Colorado R. ? We did that, what a great trip! class > one all the way. You need to hire an outfitter to pick you up, so could be > costly with a bunch of scouts. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Nez Perce Date: 23 Jan 2002 10:50:26 -0700 I have to admit that much of what is done or discussed among the AMM group is not of huge interest to me, except of course when my husband comes home bragging that he ate Buffalo testicles, especially after Sue Raven writes, "Christian Bill Williams even ate his partner one winter," which makes me extremely nervous as to what my husband is going to do next. <g> As a small child, my father, who grew up on Lapwai road in Culdesac, Idaho, told me many magical stories of the Nez Perce Indians. He wove for me a world of savagery and wilderness, a people full of love and life, inspiring wanderlust and romanticism in my young heart. During college, I did a research paper on the Nez Perce, focusing specifically on an aged Brave who fought with Chief Joseph that my father grew up around whose Christian name was John Green. His Indian name was Wai-Lim-Lex. My father described him as a "gentle man with long grey hair... wore no shoes but deer hides that were wrapped around his feet and then all the way up to his knees... crisscrossed with leather straps... and wore a wide black felt hat that he was very proud of." My father said that John always seemed to be laughing and would hide in the bushes along the road as the kids would walk to school, jumping out to scare them. My uncle tells it a little different, saying that John would try and make eye contact with you while hiding in the bushes to see if you were paying attention to your surroundings. Apparently John ate with my father's family a lot, and when he had enough to eat, he would turn his plate and cup over. One of my father's favorite stories about John was when one of the horses that my dad's family owned would get out, none of them were able to catch it. John would come along chanting to the horse, sometimes for hours until he was able to walk right up to the horse and put a "hakama" on it and lead it to the barn for them. "John didn't go to church on Sunday and of course we kids thought this very strange since we thought that everyone went to church, so we asked him why he didn't go to church and he replied that, 'White man kill my brothers. White man kill my sisters. White man disgrace my mother. I no go to white man's church.'" Anyway, after that extremely long introduction, I would like to know if anyone out there would have information or tidbits for me regarding the Nez Perce and their culture. If anyone is knowledgeable about Nez Perce language, I would like to know what Wai-Lim-Lex means. On a side note, as an English major I would like to know more about the origins of "Your Most Obedient Servant", specifically if this was a typical ending for letters in a time period or if it was contained to a specific group like the Mountain Men. And on a final note, I want it known that I am not nor ever have been an ERA advocate. <g> Thank you Gretchen H. Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 10:01:01 -0800 <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P><BR><BR></P> <DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></DIV> <P><BR><BR></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">And he said:</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"Dear Sue: <BR>I think Todd said it. <BR>I have not seen <I>Gretchen post on this list before and the first time she does this is how you treat her?</I> That was a real Blond moment on your part. <BR>Crazy Cyot "</FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">And she said:</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Mr. Crazy Coyote and <U>ALL past and future posters</U>,</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> I will try not to lower myself to coming into conflict with many of the male archetypes within this list other than debate; something very difficult for a few. The fact I have a doctorate in history <EM>does not qualify me </EM>to berate AMM, or the host of this list. If I come across as a <STRONG>bee-otch </STRONG>at anytime please feel free to let me know. Oh, if someone has trouble with the word in reference to my gender, they might contemplate upon the sexually descriptive noun used to describe mother wolves, coyotes, and all other dogs. As a literary hero of mine, William Shakespeare used the word in his play KING LEAR in 1605. At the same time Elizabeth's homosexual cousin, James was on the throne. The one responsible for the first English translation of the Bible that some of you profess to believe in. So, if <EM>bitch</EM> was acceptable with Shakespeare, and many of my ebony feminist sisters, then it is proper with me. Besides I utilize the noun in the classes I teach, as well as allow it's usage from my students, and frequently hear it openly used in the university(not a Bible School) system. </FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> By the way, I do believe since my father pointed out to me years ago, much of the cast in Heston and Keith's portrayal of THE MOUNTAIN MEN were AMM members at the rendezvous scene, whom played in the movie that allowed the word. I wonder how many black powder oriented fathers would censor their children from viewing the movie? By accepting a role within the movie, do not the participants give acceptability to the language and scenes within the document despite it's Hollywood distorted aroma?</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> My comment to Gretchen was <STRONG>'woman to woman'</STRONG>. If I chose not to go off list with her, in the same vein why did she not choose to go off list with Ned? If the males on this list can not see the humiliation that she created for her husband, then <EM>unlike my Dad, you're most likely whipped as well or simply ignorant and without 'class'</EM>. </FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">In Hard Love,</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Sue Raven</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">P. S. Since you like 'blond' jokes, I'll post one for you next time sweet Crazy. Also, the married men on this list would do well not to ask me off list for my phone number, and should cease the sexually offensive remarks!</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_etl_EN.asp'>http://explorer.msn.com</a>.<br></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: January BookSale Date: 23 Jan 2002 17:28:37 EST I am having a January BookSale to close out some excess books. They cover a variety of subjects of wide interest. The site is somewhat graphics intensive and the server will blog down if too many try to access it at once. If you get an error message, try again later. Please keep any comments offlist and send them to me personally at <oldfoxtraders@aol.com>. View the books at: http://members.aol.com/oldfoxtraders/booksale/booksale.htm This is a closeout......ALL SALES ARE FINAL. TOF ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <Ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Date: 23 Jan 2002 13:57:35 -0500 Dick, My long lost relative, hope you and your family are doing well. If you would, could you please email me at ikon@mindspring.com. Seems a few virus' ago one ate your email. I just got in the mail my new old 55.00 GPR rifle. It is bound to have a shortened barrel and possibly switched to a flintlock. Depending on if I can do this by cutting the snail off the side of the barrel and installing a flintlock lock. Plans are to strip it completely, finish it in a very dark color, add a patchbox and a mess o brass tacks. Was relaxing a bit today and watched the Mountain Men and remembered we had a discussion about this at one time. Take Care, Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:02 AM > Frank > Hi, cuz . . . Good to see your name on the screen again. It seems like a > while. Enjoyed your comments pro and con on AMM. They have good goals, are > based on fine ideals, and have a few bragadocios. Trouble is . . . these can > be more noticable than the quality people just because of the noise they > make. Its good to know you have the skills of discernment to separate the > two extremes. > > Best wishes for this new year. > > Dick James > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 16:50:51 -0800 Sue Raven wrote ; If I come across as a bee-otch at anytime please feel free to let me know. ( Folks this is not for the weak of heart ) >>OK Sue, you're being a BITCH ! Set yourself down, read, and learn ! And by the way, it doesn't make a damn if you do have a Doctorate in history. If Gretchen did the wrong thing by responding to whoever, then that is between Wynn and Gretchen, and none of your fookin business. Had about all of this pissin match I can stand ! Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Jewell" <tjewell@home.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 18:09:38 -0500 Hey List, I was just wondering if anyone knows *SUE RAVEN* personally. If not, consider that no one knew *CLINT GARRETT* either. Also note the similarities in their posts: references to brothers and sisters; both claim college education; both talk about homosexuals, peoples wives, etc.; similarity in writing *style* ie, the use of "ten dollar" words but can't or don't use good grammar. Both throw famous peoples names around like they knew them personally, etc. etc. etc.... CLINT GARRETT said he'd be back..... Coincidences???? Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 18:44:18 EST In a message dated 1/23/2002 3:12:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, tjewell@home.com writes: <<*SUE RAVEN* *CLINT GARRETT* *NED EDDINS* (added by me) Coincidences???? >> In looking at the similarities to the previously posted rudeness and other crap, and I'm thinking that Clint's alter-ego(s) has gone the way of the gender challenged.... <VEFG> I agree with you Larry, this is not the place for a pissing match, but thats what happens when the purpose of the list takes a back seat, and folks turn it into an eMail chat room. I guess I should thank him/her/it/them for once again reminding me of the value of the oft forgotten delete key. Barn. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps Date: 23 Jan 2002 23:43:43 +0000 Howdy fellas, Anybody here no how to gray down pewter or antique it artificially? Man, is it bright, mostly tin mix. Michael Pierce, where are ya when I need ya? Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 15:46:00 -0800 This is all pretty ridiculous and sickening, in fact. Who cares is SUE RAVEN is or is not CLINT GARRETT? Clint Garrett had opinions and expressed them. Maybe he lied. Maybe he was inarticulate and confused. Maybe he was mad. When I get mad, sometimes I stretch the truth, too. I pissed my pants once when I was in elementary school. So what? That doesn't make your (collective) or my opinions less valid. This Ned Eddins for example, knows somethings. Does he have to tow the party line on this list? I thought that one of the cherished traditions of Americans was that they were allowed to own and express their own opinions. My opinion is this: this list would be much less annoying if folks could choose to disagree about things without the need to throttle the competition. Or the freedom to post what one believes to this list. John Stephens a/k/a B'st'rd, Orange County, CA. I exist. Tim Jewell wrote: > > Hey List, > > I was just wondering if anyone knows *SUE RAVEN* personally. If not, > consider that no one knew *CLINT GARRETT* either. Also note the > similarities in their posts: references to brothers and sisters; both claim > college education; both talk about homosexuals, peoples wives, etc.; > similarity in writing *style* ie, the use of "ten dollar" words but can't or > don't use good grammar. Both throw famous peoples names around like they > knew them personally, etc. etc. etc.... > > CLINT GARRETT said he'd be back..... Coincidences???? > > Tim > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <colleen@ccrtc.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 18:43:12 -0700 Just 2 little things..... 1. I usually just lurk...wanting to learn a little....enjoy the comments, etc....but, there's a time and place for everything. If'n you want to have a flame war....do it amongst yourselves on your private email instead of taking up bandwidth on the list. AND 2. Thank gawd for the 'delete' button. Flame away at me if you wish, but do it to my personal email.......there's enough negativity going on in the world as it is, why do we need more on the list???? Colleen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 16:58:03 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_7acc.102b.7fc2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, I think you may have coined a phrase here that most list members will understand....."Clint Garrett Syndrome." Todd On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:09:38 -0500 "Tim Jewell" <tjewell@home.com> writes: > Hey List, > > I was just wondering if anyone knows *SUE RAVEN* personally. If > not, > consider that no one knew *CLINT GARRETT* either. Also note the > similarities in their posts: references to brothers and sisters; > both claim > college education; both talk about homosexuals, peoples wives, > etc.; > similarity in writing *style* ie, the use of "ten dollar" words but > can't or > don't use good grammar. Both throw famous peoples names around like > they > knew them personally, etc. etc. etc.... > > CLINT GARRETT said he'd be back..... Coincidences???? > > Tim > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ----__JNP_000_7acc.102b.7fc2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 http-equiv=3Dcontent-type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bottomMargin=3D0 leftMargin=3D3 rightMargin=3D3 topMargin=3D0> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Tim,</DIV> <DIV>I think you may have coined a phrase here that most list members will<= /DIV> <DIV>understand....."<STRONG>Clint Garrett Syndrome</STRONG>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Todd</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:09:38 -0500 "Tim Jewell" <<A=20 href=3D"mailto:tjewell@home.com">tjewell@home.com</A>> writes:<BR>> = Hey=20 List,<BR>> <BR>> I was just wondering if anyone knows *SUE RAVEN*=20 personally. If <BR>> not,<BR>> consider that no one knew *CLINT= =20 GARRETT* either. Also note the<BR>> similarities in their posts:=20 references to brothers and sisters; <BR>> both claim<BR>> college=20 education; both talk about homosexuals, peoples wives, <BR>> etc.;<BR>&= gt;=20 similarity in writing *style* ie, the use of "ten dollar" words but <BR>>= ;=20 can't or<BR>> don't use good grammar. Both throw famous peoples = names=20 around like <BR>> they<BR>> knew them personally, etc. etc.=20 etc....<BR>> <BR>> CLINT GARRETT said he'd be back.....=20 Coincidences????<BR>> <BR>> Tim<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>=20 ----------------------<BR>> hist_text list info: <BR>> <A=20 href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.= xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR>>=20 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML> ----__JNP_000_7acc.102b.7fc2-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 17:13:47 -0700 John, I guess I basically agree with the theme of your posting. This is a forum for the sharing of information and opinions. However, there is a certain accepted etiquette here which is to often violated. As Dennis Miles once succinctly stated, "It's amazing how bold some people talk when hiding behind their computer." To me the issue here is people being purposely argumentative, making definitive statements not based on any fact, and calling someone a "Bitch." I wasn't raised using Shakespearean English and there just aren't many Black women in this area, so when someone calls someone else a "Bitch," it's fighting time. I'm mighty tolerant of peoples opinions, as long as they stay within the framework of socially accepted norms of communication. Todd Glover On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:46:00 -0800 JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> writes: > This is all pretty ridiculous and sickening, in fact. Who cares is > SUE > RAVEN is or is not CLINT GARRETT? Clint Garrett had opinions and > expressed them. Maybe he lied. Maybe he was inarticulate and > confused. > Maybe he was mad. When I get mad, sometimes I stretch the truth, > too. I > pissed my pants once when I was in elementary school. So what? That > doesn't make your (collective) or my opinions less valid. This Ned > Eddins for example, knows somethings. Does he have to tow the party > line > on this list? I thought that one of the cherished traditions of > Americans was that they were allowed to own and express their own > opinions. > > My opinion is this: this list would be much less annoying if folks > could > choose to disagree about things without the need to throttle the > competition. Or the freedom to post what one believes to this list. > > John Stephens a/k/a B'st'rd, Orange County, CA. I exist. > > Tim Jewell wrote: > > > > Hey List, > > > > I was just wondering if anyone knows *SUE RAVEN* personally. If > not, > > consider that no one knew *CLINT GARRETT* either. Also note the > > similarities in their posts: references to brothers and sisters; > both claim > > college education; both talk about homosexuals, peoples wives, > etc.; > > similarity in writing *style* ie, the use of "ten dollar" words > but can't or > > don't use good grammar. Both throw famous peoples names around > like they > > knew them personally, etc. etc. etc.... > > > > CLINT GARRETT said he'd be back..... Coincidences???? > > > > Tim > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mrs. Ormand Date: 23 Jan 2002 17:40:24 -0700 Mrs. Ormand, You are absolutely right, and for my part, I am sorry. Many on the list e-mailed me expressing regrets for the conduct of others on the list, so the posts went both ways...anyway none of this serves any purpose, we are all here because we share a common interest and to learn from each other. Hardtack, I hope your post was a "tongue in cheek" remark. I admit to getting older and grumpier, but hopefully, not Alzheimer's...usually, everyone knows exactly where I stand on something. For the people that emailed me directly, let me say that there were good points on each side, but they got lost in the replies. There is no doubt that the North West and, after 1821, the Hudson's Bay Brigades traveled at least five out of seven days or even more. One purpose being to create a buffer zone between the Americans and the Oregon Country. The Brigades that carried out George Simpson's "scorched earth policy" concentrated on the beaver rich areas primarily the high mountain valleys, for example, Ogden's Hole (Huntsville, Utah). In 1825, Peter Skene Ogden spent six days there with a total of 131 people (~ 60 trappers), 268 horses, and 352 traps. He moved camp while there, but it was because they run out of horse pasture near the camp. The last Hudson's Bay Brigade in this area, Idaho - Wyoming, was I believe 1828. The major reason that the Hudson's Bay quit the brigade system was that they could no longer travel from Fort Vancouver, Washington, and trap enough beaver to make it feasible. After building Fort Boise (1835) and acquiring, Fort Hall (1837) , the Hudson's Bay people were more traders than trappers. Once the major valley floors were trapped out, the next places were the streams and rivers coming out of the canyons, and this leads to my argument that mountain men probably walked as much as they rode...once they reached the trapping areas. Crazy Cyot and others will agree that a canyon trail does not always follow the streambed. Downed timber, willows, bogs, and beaver dams makes horse travel up a good portion of the canyon floor impossible, and sometimes the entire canyon. Now, picture what it was like before most of the beaver were trapped out. And remember, in those days there were basically no trails. My scenario is that in general they camped in an area off the main stream where it was safer, and where there was good grass and water for their horses if they had them. By walking, you can get over, or around, downed timber, through the willows, and across bogs that are impossible to do riding a horse. Once the area close to camp was trapped out, which could take days or weeks, they probably moved camp upstream and started over. From the mouth of the canyon to the head of North Horse Creek is roughly sixteen miles by trail. It would take a small party of trappers most of the summer to trap it and the small tributaries coming into it with maybe three or four camp moves. In case some of you are not familiar with North Horse Creek, the rendezvous of 1833, 1835, 1836, 1837, 1839, and 1840 were held on the lower part of it. To me, there is a vast difference between the Mountain Men of 1810 to 1830 and those that came after 1830, when most of the journals were written...these journals are more about their travels than how they actually trapped. One reason for this difference was the areas near the rendezvous sites had been trapped out, and in order to reach new prime beaver country, i.e the Three Forks in Montana, the trappers had to cover greater distances. There is no doubt that it required horses to get them there. After they were in the new area, they had the same problems trapping the canyons as I have already pointed out. I still maintain, the earliest trappers in these mountains spent more time walking than they did riding. Even if they started out with horses, which most did, Indians usually stole them. As many of you stated, if Indians stole them that means they had horses (logic 101)...not after they didn't, Indians did. YMOS Ned ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps Date: 23 Jan 2002 18:03:35 -0700 I hesitate to respond to this question as the last time I did so I was chewed up and spit out. But here goes anyway: Liver of sulphur sold at jewelry supply stores works well. Stained glass shops have several patinas they sell that work with lead, pewter and God forbid, brass!. Old Coyote On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:43:43 +0000 "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> writes: > Howdy fellas, > Anybody here no how to gray down pewter or antique it artificially? > Man, is it bright, mostly tin mix. > Michael Pierce, where are ya when I need ya? > Don Secondine > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: > http://messenger.msn.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps Date: 24 Jan 2002 01:09:22 +0000 Thank ye kindly Charlie, I'd of never thought about stained glass shops. Liver of sulphur. I used to play with that on copper when I was a pup. I'll try it. Yep, let's not mention brass. (LOL) Thanks again, Don >From: Charlie P Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps >Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:03:35 -0700 > >I hesitate to respond to this question as the last time I >did so I was chewed up and spit out. >But here goes anyway: Liver of sulphur sold at >jewelry supply stores works well. Stained glass >shops have several patinas they sell that work with >lead, pewter and God forbid, brass!. >Old Coyote > >On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:43:43 +0000 "darlene secondine" ><dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> writes: > > Howdy fellas, > > Anybody here no how to gray down pewter or antique it artificially? > > Man, is it bright, mostly tin mix. > > Michael Pierce, where are ya when I need ya? > > Don Secondine > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: > > http://messenger.msn.com > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 18:12:04 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C1A439.764C7D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By the way, I do believe since my father pointed out to me years = ago, much of the cast in Heston and Keith's portrayal of THE MOUNTAIN = MEN were AMM members at the rendezvous scene, whom played in the movie = that allowed the word. I wonder how many black powder oriented fathers = would censor their children from viewing the movie? By accepting a role = within the movie, do not the participants give acceptability to the = language and scenes within the document despite it's Hollywood distorted = aroma? Sue Raven Lady I was in the movie with many other AMM brothers, we only where = involved in the rendezvous scene, we saw very little of Heston or Keith = or what they said for the roles as we where in the back ground, there = was so much yelling and loud music you couldn't even hear a friend 20 = feet away. We where all surprised at the Keith's language when we saw = the uncut version at LaVeta the next summer. As far as "acceptability" = to anything, the director is the only one that as that ability, we where = yelling about anything from clothing to weapons that their people where = using, our complaints when on deaf ears. Buck. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C1A439.764C7D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"> By the way, I = do=20 believe since my father pointed out to me years ago, much = of the=20 cast in Heston and Keith's portrayal of THE MOUNTAIN MEN were AMM = members at the=20 rendezvous scene, whom played in the movie that allowed the=20 word. I wonder how many black powder oriented fathers would censor = their=20 children from viewing the movie? By accepting a role within the = movie, do=20 not the participants give acceptability to the language and scenes = within the=20 document despite it's Hollywood distorted aroma?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Sue Raven</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT=20 face=3D"Comic Sans = MS">-------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Lady I was in the movie with many = other AMM=20 brothers, we only where involved in the rendezvous scene, we saw very = little of=20 Heston or Keith or what they said for the roles as we where in the back = ground,=20 there was so much yelling and loud music you couldn't even hear a friend = 20 feet=20 away. We where all surprised at the Keith's language when we = saw the=20 uncut version at LaVeta the next summer. As far as "acceptability" to = anything,=20 the director is the only one that as that ability, we where yelling = about=20 anything from clothing to weapons that their people where using, our = complaints=20 when on deaf ears.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Buck.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C1A439.764C7D60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Unsubscribe Date: 23 Jan 2002 19:36:37 -0600 <html> Unsubscribe me, please.<br> <br> I have been on this list for a while, mostly lurking, but learning a great deal.<br> Now, I've learned that this list has degenerated beyond anything worth reading. I have slow bandwidth, side effect of living in the country. Downloading a lengthy pile of pissing matches is not something I care to do anymore. <br> <br> With regrets,<br> Todd Schrivener<br> <br> <br> At 10:01 AM 1/23/02 -0800, you wrote: <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <font face=3D"Lucida Handwriting"><blockquote type=3Dcite cite>And he said:<br> </font>=A0<br> <font face=3D"arial" size=3D2>"Dear Sue: <br> I think Todd said it. <br> I have not seen <i>Gretchen post on this list before and the first time she does this is how you treat her?</i> That was a real Blond moment on your part. <br> Crazy Cyot "</font><br> <br> <font face=3D"Lucida Handwriting" size=3D3>And she said:<br> </font><br> <font face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Mr. Crazy Coyote and <u>ALL past and future posters</u>,<br> </font><br> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I will try not to lower myself to coming into conflict with= many of the male archetypes within this list other than debate; something very difficult for a few.=A0 The fact I have a doctorate in history <i>does not qualify me </i>to berate AMM,=A0or the host of this list.=A0 If I come acros= s as a <b>bee-otch </b>at anytime please feel free to let me know.=A0 Oh, if someone has trouble with the word in reference to my gender, they might contemplate upon the sexually descriptive noun used to describe mother wolves, coyotes, and all other dogs.=A0 As a literary hero of mine, William Shakespeare used the word in his play KING LEAR in 1605.=A0=A0At the=A0same time Elizabeth's homosexual cousin, James was on the throne.=A0 The one responsible for the=A0first English translation of the Bible that some of you profess to=A0believe in.=A0 So, if=A0<i>bitch</i> was acceptable with Sh= ake speare, and many of my <br> <br> =A0=A0=A0=A0 By the way, I do believe since=A0my father=A0pointed out to me = years ago,=A0much of the cast in Heston and Keith's portrayal of THE MOUNTAIN MEN were AMM members at the rendezvous scene, whom played in=A0the movie that=A0allowed the word.=A0 I wonder how many black powder oriented fathers would censor their children from viewing the movie?=A0 By accepting a role within the movie, do not the participants give acceptability to the language and scenes within the document despite it's Hollywood distorted aroma?<br> <br> =A0=A0=A0=A0 My comment to Gretchen was <b>'woman to woman'</b>.=A0 If I= chose not to go off list with her,=A0in the same vein=A0why did she not=A0choose=A0to = go off list with Ned?=A0 If the males on this list can not see the humiliation that she created for her husband, then <i>unlike my Dad, you're most likely whipped as well or simply ignorant and without=A0'class'</i>.=A0<br> <br> In Hard Love,<br> <br> Sue Raven<br> <br> P. S.=A0 Since you like 'blond' jokes, I'll post one for you next time=A0sweet Crazy.=A0 Also, the married men on this list would do well not to ask me off list for my phone number, and should cease the sexually offensive remarks!<br> <br> <br> <hr> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a= href=3D"'http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_etl_en.asp'">http://explorer.msn.com</= a>.<br> </blockquote><br> <BR> </html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps Date: 23 Jan 2002 20:06:11 -0600 A few cycles thorough the dishwasher with lots of strong detergent on pot scrubber setting should help. John... At 05:43 PM 1/23/02, you wrote: >Howdy fellas, >Anybody here no how to gray down pewter or antique it artificially? >Man, is it bright, mostly tin mix. >Michael Pierce, where are ya when I need ya? >Don Secondine > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Horses and Trapping Date: 23 Jan 2002 20:12:58 -0700 Ned, I understand your point more clearly now. You are right that they probably weren't riding into the trapping areas. How long it takes to trap out an area is situational. One thing I've learned from trapping is that a few beaver can cause alot of dams and damage (well, damage from our perspective). Anyway, that Horse Creek country is some pretty ground. Several of us did a 5 day right up north of there near the headwaters of the Green, across to the Gros Ventre. Saw griz tracks every day. Planning a 10 day ride there next year, that should be an adventure. Take care and mind those horses! Allen At 05:40 PM 1/23/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Mrs. Ormand, > >You are absolutely right, and for my part, I am sorry. Many on the list >e-mailed me expressing regrets for the conduct of others on the list, so the >posts went both ways...anyway none of this serves any purpose, we are all >here because we share a common interest and to learn from each other. > >Hardtack, I hope your post was a "tongue in cheek" remark. I admit to >getting older and grumpier, but hopefully, not Alzheimer's...usually, >everyone knows exactly where I stand on something. > >For the people that emailed me directly, let me say that there were good >points on each side, but they got lost in the replies. There is no doubt >that the North West and, after 1821, the Hudson's Bay Brigades traveled at >least five out of seven days or even more. One purpose being to create a >buffer zone between the Americans and the Oregon Country. The Brigades that >carried out George Simpson's "scorched earth policy" concentrated on the >beaver rich areas primarily the high mountain valleys, for example, Ogden's >Hole (Huntsville, Utah). In 1825, Peter Skene Ogden spent six days there >with a total of 131 people (~ 60 trappers), 268 horses, and 352 traps. He >moved camp while there, but it was because they run out of horse pasture >near the camp. The last Hudson's Bay Brigade in this area, Idaho - Wyoming, >was I believe 1828. The major reason that the Hudson's Bay quit the brigade >system was that they could no longer travel from Fort Vancouver, Washington, >and trap enough beaver to make it feasible. After building Fort Boise (1835) >and acquiring, Fort Hall (1837) , the Hudson's Bay people were more traders >than trappers. > >Once the major valley floors were trapped out, the next places were the >streams and rivers coming out of the canyons, and this leads to my argument >that mountain men probably walked as much as they rode...once they reached >the trapping areas. Crazy Cyot and others will agree that a canyon trail >does not always follow the streambed. Downed timber, willows, bogs, and >beaver dams makes horse travel up a good portion of the canyon floor >impossible, and sometimes the entire canyon. Now, picture what it was like >before most of the beaver were trapped out. And remember, in those days >there were basically no trails. > >My scenario is that in general they camped in an area off the main stream >where it was safer, and where there was good grass and water for their >horses if they had them. By walking, you can get over, or around, downed >timber, through the willows, and across bogs that are impossible to do >riding a horse. Once the area close to camp was trapped out, which could >take days or weeks, they probably moved camp upstream and started over. From >the mouth of the canyon to the head of North Horse Creek is roughly sixteen >miles by trail. It would take a small party of trappers most of the summer >to trap it and the small tributaries coming into it with maybe three or four >camp moves. In case some of you are not familiar with North Horse Creek, the >rendezvous of 1833, 1835, 1836, 1837, 1839, and 1840 were held on the lower >part of it. > >To me, there is a vast difference between the Mountain Men of 1810 to 1830 >and those that came after 1830, when most of the journals were >written...these journals are more about their travels than how they actually >trapped. One reason for this difference was the areas near the rendezvous >sites had been trapped out, and in order to reach new prime beaver country, >i.e the Three Forks in Montana, the trappers had to cover greater distances. >There is no doubt that it required horses to get them there. After they were >in the new area, they had the same problems trapping the canyons as I have >already pointed out. > >I still maintain, the earliest trappers in these mountains spent more time >walking than they did riding. Even if they started out with horses, which >most did, Indians usually stole them. As many of you stated, if Indians >stole them that means they had horses (logic 101)...not after they didn't, >Indians did. > >YMOS >Ned > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 19:13:46 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 3:09 PM > Hey List, > > I was just wondering if anyone knows *SUE RAVEN* personally. If not, > consider that no one knew *CLINT GARRETT* either. Tim, No I do not know either individual. And I could care less if CG is back. The best way to deal with people who are rude is to ignore them. But I am taking the liberty of attaching below a few good one liners from a post that is attributed to Dave Barry. Perhaps they are of value in putting the present circumstances in perspective?!: 3. There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." 6. You should not confuse your career with your life. 7. No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously. 8. When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy. 12. The most powerful force in the universe is gossip. 18. A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person. 19. Your friends love you anyway. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps Date: 24 Jan 2002 03:13:53 +0000 Thanks John, It's a pored on the gunstock type nose cap. I don't think this recipe will work on this project. Thanks for the post though, I got a chuckle out of it. Your friend, Don Secondine >From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps >Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:06:11 -0600 > >A few cycles thorough the dishwasher with lots of strong detergent on pot >scrubber setting should help. > >John... > > >At 05:43 PM 1/23/02, you wrote: >>Howdy fellas, >>Anybody here no how to gray down pewter or antique it artificially? >>Man, is it bright, mostly tin mix. >>Michael Pierce, where are ya when I need ya? >>Don Secondine >> >> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <cd252@ptd.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 22:21:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0297_01C1A45C.556F7980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a relative "Newbie" to this list ... so if I speak out of turn I = apologise.....but...I think alot of the members here are overly = sensitive and uptight isn't this list supposed to be informative, a = open forum for different opinions and interpratation of the past and = last but not least....FUN? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SUE RAVEN=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? And he said: "Dear Sue:=20 I think Todd said it.=20 I have not seen Gretchen post on this list before and the first time = she does this is how you treat her? That was a real Blond moment on your = part.=20 Crazy Cyot " And she said: Mr. Crazy Coyote and ALL past and future posters, I will try not to lower myself to coming into conflict with many = of the male archetypes within this list other than debate; something = very difficult for a few. The fact I have a doctorate in history does = not qualify me to berate AMM, or the host of this list. If I come = across as a bee-otch at anytime please feel free to let me know. Oh, if = someone has trouble with the word in reference to my gender, they might = contemplate upon the sexually descriptive noun used to describe mother = wolves, coyotes, and all other dogs. As a literary hero of mine, = William Shakespeare used the word in his play KING LEAR in 1605. At the = same time Elizabeth's homosexual cousin, James was on the throne. The = one responsible for the first English translation of the Bible that some = of you profess to believe in. So, if bitch was acceptable with = Shakespeare, and many of my ebony feminist sisters, then it is proper = with me. Besides I utilize the noun in the classes I teach, as well as = allow it's usage from my students, and frequently hear it openly used in = the university(not a Bible School) system. =20 By the way, I do believe since my father pointed out to me years = ago, much of the cast in Heston and Keith's portrayal of THE MOUNTAIN = MEN were AMM members at the rendezvous scene, whom played in the movie = that allowed the word. I wonder how many black powder oriented fathers = would censor their children from viewing the movie? By accepting a role = within the movie, do not the participants give acceptability to the = language and scenes within the document despite it's Hollywood distorted = aroma? My comment to Gretchen was 'woman to woman'. If I chose not to = go off list with her, in the same vein why did she not choose to go off = list with Ned? If the males on this list can not see the humiliation = that she created for her husband, then unlike my Dad, you're most likely = whipped as well or simply ignorant and without 'class'.=20 In Hard Love, Sue Raven P. S. Since you like 'blond' jokes, I'll post one for you next time = sweet Crazy. Also, the married men on this list would do well not to = ask me off list for my phone number, and should cease the sexually = offensive remarks! ----- Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0297_01C1A45C.556F7980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am a relative "Newbie" to this list = ... so if I=20 speak out of turn I apologise.....but...I think alot of the members here = are=20 overly sensitive and uptight isn't this list supposed to be=20 informative, a open forum for different opinions and = interpratation of the=20 past and last but not least....FUN?</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Dblond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com=20 href=3D"mailto:blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com">SUE RAVEN</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 23, = 2002 1:01=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Isn't = that=20 PRECIOUS?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <P><BR><BR></P> <DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></DIV> <P><BR><BR></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">And he said:</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Dear Sue: <BR>I think Todd said it. = <BR>I have=20 not seen <I>Gretchen post on this list before and the first time she = does this=20 is how you treat her?</I> That was a real Blond moment on your part. = <BR>Crazy=20 Cyot "</FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">And she said:</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Mr. Crazy Coyote and <U>ALL past and = future=20 posters</U>,</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"> I will = try not to=20 lower myself to coming into conflict with many of the male archetypes = within=20 this list other than debate; something very difficult for a few. = The=20 fact I have a doctorate in history <EM>does not qualify me </EM>to = berate=20 AMM, or the host of this list. If I come across as a=20 <STRONG>bee-otch </STRONG>at anytime please feel free to let me = know. =20 Oh, if someone has trouble with the word in reference to my gender, = they might=20 contemplate upon the sexually descriptive noun used to describe mother = wolves,=20 coyotes, and all other dogs. As a literary hero of mine, William = Shakespeare used the word in his play KING LEAR in 1605. At = the same time Elizabeth's homosexual cousin, James was on the=20 throne. The one responsible for the first English = translation of=20 the Bible that some of you profess to believe in. So,=20 if <EM>bitch</EM> was acceptable with Shakespeare, and many of my = ebony=20 feminist sisters, then it is proper with me. Besides I = utilize=20 the noun in the classes I teach, as well as allow it's = usage from my=20 students, and frequently hear it openly used in the = university(not a=20 Bible School) system. </FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"> By the way, I = do=20 believe since my father pointed out to me years = ago, much of=20 the cast in Heston and Keith's portrayal of THE MOUNTAIN MEN were AMM = members=20 at the rendezvous scene, whom played in the movie = that allowed the=20 word. I wonder how many black powder oriented fathers would = censor their=20 children from viewing the movie? By accepting a role within the = movie,=20 do not the participants give acceptability to the language and scenes = within=20 the document despite it's Hollywood distorted aroma?</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"> My comment to = Gretchen=20 was <STRONG>'woman to woman'</STRONG>. If I chose not to go off = list=20 with her, in the same vein why did she = not choose to go=20 off list with Ned? If the males on this list can not see the = humiliation=20 that she created for her husband, then <EM>unlike my Dad, you're most = likely=20 whipped as well or simply ignorant and=20 without 'class'</EM>. </FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">In Hard Love,</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Sue Raven</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">P. S. Since you like 'blond' = jokes, I'll=20 post one for you next time sweet Crazy. Also, the married = men on=20 this list would do well not to ask me off list for my phone number, = and should=20 cease the sexually offensive remarks!</FONT></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=3Dall> <HR> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <A=20 = href=3D"http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_etl_EN.asp">http://explorer.msn.com</= A>.<BR>----------------------=20 hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0297_01C1A45C.556F7980-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 21:01:33 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A451.23603B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello the List! After reading what Sue and Buck are talking about I was reminded of what = a great film this was considering the story line and the artistic license= the director took in producing it. I have a personal copy of this movie= as I'm sure many of you do. With this said, I must say that the word "b= itch" being used in the movie is quite mild once you take into account wh= at John Kirk Townsend had to say about what he witnessed at the 1834 Rend= ezvous. "We are now lying at the rendezvous. W. Sublette, Captains Cerre, Fitzpa= trick, and other leaders, with their companies are encamped about a mile = from us, on the same plain, and our own camp is crowded with a heterogene= ous assemblage of visitors. The principle of these are Indians... ...to = trade for ammunition, trinkets, and "fire water." There is, in addition = to these, a great variety of personages amongst us; most of them calling = themselves white men... These people, with their obstreperous mirth, the= ir whooping, and howling, and quarrelling, added to the mounted Indians, = who are constantly dashing into and through our camp, yelling like fiends= , the barking and baying of savage wolf-dogs, and the incessant cracking = of rifles and carbines, render our camp a perfect bedlam. A more unpleas= ant situation for an invalid could scarcely be conceived. I am confined = to the tent with illness, and am compelled all day to listen to the hicco= ughing jargon of the drunken traders, the sacre and foutre of Frenchmen r= un wild, and the swearing and screaming of our own men, who are scarcely = less savage than the rest, being heated by the detestable liquor which ci= rculates freely amoung them." Now, THAT is the spirit of Rendezvous!!! After reading this and then wat= ching the movie, I would have to say, Hollywood toned it down a bit. Sin= ce this IS the history list, not the "gender list", I hope no one minds r= evisiting a bit of history. YMHOS Mike Powell Upper Snake River Plains PS. Sue, I would never call you a "Bitch" as far as you know. Does the = University you teach at have a code of professional ethics? (Just wonder= ing) =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 6:11 PM =20 By the way, I do believe since my father pointed out to me years ago= , much of the cast in Heston and Keith's portrayal of THE MOUNTAIN MEN we= re AMM members at the rendezvous scene, whom played in the movie that all= owed the word. I wonder how many black powder oriented fathers would cen= sor their children from viewing the movie? By accepting a role within th= e movie, do not the participants give acceptability to the language and s= cenes within the document despite it's Hollywood distorted aroma? =20 Sue Raven Lady I was in the movie with many other AMM brothers, we only where invol= ved in the rendezvous scene, we saw very little of Heston or Keith or wha= t they said for the roles as we where in the back ground, there was so mu= ch yelling and loud music you couldn't even hear a friend 20 feet away. = We where all surprised at the Keith's language when we saw the uncut vers= ion at LaVeta the next summer. As far as "acceptability" to anything, the= director is the only one that as that ability, we where yelling about an= ything from clothing to weapons that their people where using, our compla= ints when on deaf ears. =20 Buck.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer= .msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A451.23603B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;b= ackground-color:#ffffff; "><DIV>Hello the List!</DIV> <DIV>After reading = what Sue and Buck are talking about I was reminded of what a great film&n= bsp;this was considering the story line and the artistic license the dire= ctor took in producing it. I have a personal copy of this movie as = I'm sure many of you do. With this said, I must say that the&n= bsp;word "bitch" being used in the movie is quite mild once you take into= account what John Kirk Townsend had to say about what he witnessed = at the 1834 Rendezvous.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"We are now lyin= g at the rendezvous. W. Sublette, Captains Cerre, Fitzpatrick, and = other leaders, with their companies are encamped about a mile from us, on= the same plain, and our own camp is crowded with a heterogeneous assembl= age of visitors. The principle of these are Indians... ...to trade = for ammunition, trinkets, and "fire water." There is, in addition t= o these, a great variety of personages amongst us; most of them calling t= hemselves white men... These people, with their obstreperous mirth,= their whooping, and howling, and quarrelling, added to the mounted India= ns, who are constantly dashing into and through our camp, yelling like fi= ends, the barking and baying of savage wolf-dogs, and the incessant crack= ing of rifles and carbines, render our camp a perfect bedlam. A mor= e unpleasant situation for an invalid could scarcely be conceived. = I am confined to the tent with illness, and am compelled all day to liste= n to the hiccoughing jargon of the drunken traders, the sacre and foutre = of Frenchmen run wild, and the swearing and screaming of our own men, who= are scarcely less savage than the rest, being heated by the detesta= ble liquor which circulates freely amoung them."</EM></DIV> <DIV> </= DIV> <DIV>Now, THAT is the spirit of Rendezvous!!! After readi= ng this and then watching the movie, I would have to say, Hollywood toned= it down a bit. Since this IS the history list, not the "= gender list", I hope no one minds revisiting a bit of history.</DIV>= <DIV>YMHOS</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell</DIV> <DIV>Upper Snake River Plains</D= IV> <DIV>PS. Sue, I would never call you a "Bitch" as far as you kn= ow. Does the University you teach at have a code of professional et= hics? (Just wondering)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> &nb= sp; </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px= ; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MA= RGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message = -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: b= lack"><B>From:</B> BARRY CONNER</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>= Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 23, 2002 6:11 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 1= 0pt Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FO= NT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS?</DIV= > <DIV> </DIV> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERA= TOR> <STYLE></STYLE> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"> = ; By the way, I do believe since my father pointed out to= me years ago, much of the cast in Heston and Keith's portrayal of T= HE MOUNTAIN MEN were AMM members at the rendezvous scene, whom played in&= nbsp;the movie that allowed the word. I wonder how many black = powder oriented fathers would censor their children from viewing the movi= e? By accepting a role within the movie, do not the participants gi= ve acceptability to the language and scenes within the document despite i= t's Hollywood distorted aroma?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT = face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Sue Raven</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sa= ns MS">-------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV> <DI= V><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Lady I was in the movie with many other AM= M brothers, we only where involved in the rendezvous scene, we saw very l= ittle of Heston or Keith or what they said for the roles as we where in t= he back ground, there was so much yelling and loud music you couldn't eve= n hear a friend 20 feet away. We where all surprised at the Keith's= language when we saw the uncut version at LaVeta the next summer. A= s far as "acceptability" to anything, the director is the only one that a= s that ability, we where yelling about anything from clothing to weapons = that their people where using, our complaints when on deaf ears.</FONT></= DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT fac= e=3D"Comic Sans MS">Buck.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><br clea= r=3Dall><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href=3D= 'http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A451.23603B60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 21:49:00 -0700 At 10:21 PM 1/23/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I am a relative "Newbie" to this list ... so if I speak out of turn I apologise.....but...I think alot of the members here are overly sensitive and uptight isn't this list supposed to be informative, a open forum for different opinions and interpratation of the past and last but not least....FUN? Welcome to the list, You happen to join in at a slightly contentious time. Generally, there's lots of good info and ideas to try out. And that's the main emphasis for many folks on this list, "doing it". We like our history, and books that document the period, but ultimately, getting on the ground and experiencing what the original mountain men felt is very much what many of us enjoy the most. Don't give up just yet! Allen in Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Date: 24 Jan 2002 00:18:18 EST Frank How nice to hear from you! My address list suffered a disaster also. I am=20 still hobbleing along on my aol. I have to sign on as "guest" and have lost= =20 many of the options. I contacted "the boys" and they told me some stuff to=20 try and they are sending me out a load-up disk so I should be up to snuff in= =20 a week. I am trying to get the Old Folks rate at the same time but they are= =20 slow to move on that one as well. Think of you often - especially since I am in and out of my shop every day=20 and see your cane arrow every time I pass the portal. =20 Some stuff moving here that might produce a good future crop: north of here= =20 is an old historic farm. USU (our AG school) has title to it and the=20 property that includes many old original gas and steam-operated pieces of=20 equipment. They run the farm year 'round but do all the work the "old way".= =20 Plus the farm buildings, re-enactors . . . the whole bit for preservation,=20 education, and tourism. Once a year they have a two week festival that=20 includes a pagent, musicians, food, pow-wow, 19th century military (with=20 muskets, Hotchkis gun and Gatling gun firing every quarter hour), a trapper'= s=20 camp, and Indian camp, buffalo soldier, frontier town, gunfights, period=20 craftsmen (I make brooms, as an example) and . . . you get the idea. They=20 have built a nice $3mil visitors' center and are working on a developed=20 "primitive" Indian camp. Now they are beginning plans for a mountain man=20 area complete with palisaded fur trade post. The board member in charge, a=20 guy named "Patch" (I nick-named him decades ago. He liked it and changed hi= s=20 name legally a decade ago. Am I his god-father?), and I are the planners. =20 It could work into a job for me (not full-time! I am retired!) as the Chief= =20 Factor of the post/fort . . . at least consulting fees. Tomorrow I will cross over into Wyoming for a meeting with a board whose=20 intent is to buy up land surrounding the original Fort Bridger - or such 40=20 acres the State of Wyoming has title to. This is to build a structure for a= =20 modern day "Mountain Man Hall of Fame" - sort of visitors' center museum, an= d=20 to get enough land in perpetual trust to assure a place to forever have a=20 rendezvous. I may bourgeois a new mid-summer rendezvous up there on a newly= =20 acquired piece of original fort ground. This will be 29 years since I starte= d=20 the grand daddy of all modern rendezvous at the Fort. The second one would=20 be structured like the first one I bourgeoised - which is not very=20 structured at all. And - just got off the phone with a fellow who teaches wilderness classes to= =20 youth in Canada for a week in July. If I will agree to go with him I will=20 teach beadwork and moccasin making (done this for years already) while he=20 teaches wood-lore. It is in Alberta where I had ancestors go to colonize=20 back in the mid-1800s under the direction of Brigham Young (non-Italian=20 ancestors). I want to see that part of Canada and also visit a Hudsons' Ba= y=20 Store (which I expect to be disapointing). I will make little or nothing bu= t=20 will get a free trip. Keeps snowing here but the roads melt off - maybe a little help from=20 snow-plows. Cold, though: 9=B0 to 12=B0 at night. It helps the Olympics pe= ople=20 breath easier as they get a good layer of snow up there when we just get a=20 dusting here. That range of mountains starts a mile and a half east of here= =20 and goes up over10,000' a number of places 30 miles north and south of here.= =20 That's where the doin's will git did. Actually there is a parking lot for=20 shuttle busses and 6,500 cars 1 mile from the house here. Gonna hat it when= =20 that thing gets busy (this is actually pretty rural here). Eight miles east= =20 of here (up the river, though the mountain pass and about where the skiers=20 will turn up to get to Snow Basin) is where the confrontation between Peter=20 Skene Ogden and Johnston Gardner took place 25 May 1825. The road they=20 travel lies on the path Ogden took to get from "Ogden's Hole" (not Ogden=20 City, Utah) to the Weber River. Osborn Russell tried this path when he was=20 here at Christmas time 1830-something. And these Olympic People - they -=20 couldn't - care - less . . . . Enough ramblings. Good to hear from you. Could you use some obsidian? Dick James (nephew of Mike Rago of Napa Valley country California) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Date: 24 Jan 2002 00:20:00 EST Appologies I got a letter from F. Rago that I presumed was to me alone. When I answered it now appears it went out to you all. Didn't meant to do that. Sorry Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 23 Jan 2002 21:39:42 -0800 <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Question? Does anyone have any experience with egyptian cotton sheeting; ie-making into a tarp, or shelter. I found some 250 thread per inch twin flat sheets for $9 a piece. I bought 4 of them. I can make a pretty good sized tarp from these. I figured I'd wash them in hot water, to shrink up as much as they will. Then stitch together. I figure I'll leave the tarp untreated. If this doesn't work well, I can treat later...oil? I'd appreciate any input, tips, etc.... hardtack</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV>--- <A href="mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">rjbublitz@earthlink.net</A></DIV> <DIV>we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,</DIV> <DIV>we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P></BODY></HTML> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 23 Jan 2002 23:00:33 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C1A461.C2DF94A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy, I've heard of egyptian linen as much as 500-800 thread per inch. Don't a= sk me how they do it but I do know that it is great stuff and sometimes t= reating it will ruin it. It works on the principle that as it is exposed= to moisture the fibers swell and it shuts itself off so no leaks. If yo= u treat it then it may lose the ability to respond to moisture. I've see= n some good quality stuff swell up in a light dew. The amount of moistur= e in Calif would really make that stuff valuable. Plus, it's light weigh= t. Mike Powell =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 10:42 PM =20 Question? Does anyone have any experience with egyptian cotton sheet= ing; ie-making into a tarp, or shelter. I found some 250 thread per inch= twin flat sheets for $9 a piece. I bought 4 of them. I can make a pre= tty good sized tarp from these. I figured I'd wash them in hot water, to= shrink up as much as they will. Then stitch together. I figure I'll le= ave the tarp untreated. If this doesn't work well, I can treat later...o= il? I'd appreciate any input, tips, etc.... hardtack =20 --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drud= y/mtman/maillist.html Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download = : http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C1A461.C2DF94A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Randy,</DIV> <= DIV>I've heard of egyptian linen as much as 500-800 thread per inch.= Don't ask me how they do it but I do know that it is great stuff a= nd sometimes treating it will ruin it. It works on the principle th= at as it is exposed to moisture the fibers swell and it shuts itself off = so no leaks. If you treat it then it may lose the ability to respon= d to moisture. I've seen some good quality stuff swell up in a ligh= t dew. The amount of moisture in Calif would really make that stuff= valuable. Plus, it's light weight.</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell</DIV> <D= IV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5p= x; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> = <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV s= tyle=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B>= Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednes= day, January 23, 2002 10:42 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>T= o:</B> hist_text</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Mt= Man-List: Egyptian cotton</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <META content=3D"MSHTML= 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR> <P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Question? &nb= sp; Does anyone have any experience with egyptian cotto= n sheeting; ie-making into a tarp, or shelter. I found some 250 thr= ead per inch twin flat sheets for $9 a piece. I bought 4 of t= hem. I can make a pretty good sized tarp from these. I figure= d I'd wash them in hot water, to shrink up as much as they will. Th= en stitch together. I figure I'll leave the tarp untreated. I= f this doesn't work well, I can treat later...oil? I'd apprec= iate any input, tips, etc.... hardtack</DIV> <DIV> </DIV= > <DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV>--- <A href=3D"mailto:rjbublitz@eart= hlink.net">rjbublitz@earthlink.net</A></DIV> <DIV>we have NOT inherited t= he Earth from our fathers,</DIV> <DIV>we are Borrowing it from our Childr= en</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P>---------------------- hist_text list i= nfo: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html </BLOCKQUOTE></BO= DY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer d= ownload : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a>= <br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C1A461.C2DF94A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 23 Jan 2002 23:04:16 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C1A462.47C18660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy, Almost forgot. If you have more access to 4-6 more sheets I'd be interes= ted in some if the price is still available. It's hard to get here in Id= aho. Also, I wouldn't treat it with oil but if you wanted to add a littl= e color to it you could use earth or plant pigments. Mike Powell =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 10:42 PM =20 Question? Does anyone have any experience with egyptian cotton sheet= ing; ie-making into a tarp, or shelter. I found some 250 thread per inch= twin flat sheets for $9 a piece. I bought 4 of them. I can make a pre= tty good sized tarp from these. I figured I'd wash them in hot water, to= shrink up as much as they will. Then stitch together. I figure I'll le= ave the tarp untreated. If this doesn't work well, I can treat later...o= il? I'd appreciate any input, tips, etc.... hardtack =20 --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drud= y/mtman/maillist.html Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download = : http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C1A462.47C18660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Randy,</DIV> <= DIV>Almost forgot. If you have more access to 4-6 more sheets I'd b= e interested in some if the price is still available. It's har= d to get here in Idaho. Also, I wouldn't treat it with oil but if y= ou wanted to add a little color to it you could use earth or plant pigmen= ts.</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT= : 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px soli= d; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Mes= sage -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COL= OR: black"><B>From:</B> Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Ari= al"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 23, 2002 10:42 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D= "FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_text</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Ar= ial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> = <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR> <P> <DIV></DIV> = <DIV>Question? Does anyone have any experie= nce with egyptian cotton sheeting; ie-making into a tarp, or shelter.&nbs= p; I found some 250 thread per inch twin flat sheets for $9 a piece. = ; I bought 4 of them. I can make a pretty good sized tarp fro= m these. I figured I'd wash them in hot water, to shrink up as much= as they will. Then stitch together. I figure I'll leave the = tarp untreated. If this doesn't work well, I can treat later...oil?= I'd appreciate any input, tips, etc.... hardtack= </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV>--- <A href=3D= "mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">rjbublitz@earthlink.net</A></DIV> <DIV>w= e have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,</DIV> <DIV>we are Borrow= ing it from our Children</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P>-----------------= ----- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.= html </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from the Web= . FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'>http:= //explorer.msn.com</a><br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C1A462.47C18660-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 23 Jan 2002 22:17:23 -0800 <HTML><HEAD> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt verdana; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV>Mike, Hi.... Yes, I've been advised that it works well untreated. I'll check to see if they have more (I bought this before Christmas). I had a 10% off coupon, reg price was $10. I got it at a discount Linens store (Linens and Things). The larger sheets were exponentially more expensive. What brought it up is a friend called tonight to let me know that Target had Egyptian Cotton on sale, he knew I had been exploring this. I like it because it is light. I have a couple of heavy canvas tarps, and I would like to have something lighter, I'm not getting any younger. Thanks for your input. hardtack </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">--- Randal Bublitz</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>--- <A href="mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">rjbublitz@earthlink.net</A></DIV> <DIV>we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,</DIV> <DIV>we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR clear=all> <HR> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <A href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR> <P></P></BODY></HTML> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 23 Jan 2002 23:24:45 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C1A465.248913E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy, =20 That's still a good price and something more to add is that Cindy and I h= ave fashioned a number of simple shelters using oil cloth that have worke= d well and saved a bunch. I'm sure we could fashion you a nice fly with = reinforced corners and centers, etc. for a good trade. YMHOS Mike =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 11:20 PM =20 Mike, Hi.... Yes, I've been advised that it works well untreated. = I'll check to see if they have more (I bought this before Christmas). I = had a 10% off coupon, reg price was $10. I got it at a discount Linens s= tore (Linens and Things). The larger sheets were exponentially more expe= nsive. What brought it up is a friend called tonight to let me know tha= t Target had Egyptian Cotton on sale, he knew I had been exploring this. = I like it because it is light. I have a couple of heavy canvas tarps, a= nd I would like to have something lighter, I'm not getting any younger. T= hanks for your input. hardtack =20 --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children =20 Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c= om ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drud= y/mtman/maillist.html Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download = : http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C1A465.248913E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Randy, </DIV> = <DIV>That's still a good price and something more to add is that Cindy an= d I have fashioned a number of simple shelters using oil cloth that have = worked well and saved a bunch. I'm sure we could fashion you a nice= fly with reinforced corners and centers, etc. for a good trade.</DIV> <D= IV>YMHOS</DIV> <DIV>Mike </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE = style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-= LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Ari= al">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;= FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV s= tyle=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 23, 2002 11:20 = PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_text</DIV> <DIV = style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotto= n</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DG= ENERATOR> <DIV>Mike, Hi.... Yes, I've= been advised that it works well untreated. I'll check to see if th= ey have more (I bought this before Christmas). I had a 10% off coup= on, reg price was $10. I got it at a discount Linens store (Linens = and Things). The larger sheets were exponentially more expensive.&n= bsp; What brought it up is a friend called tonight to let me k= now that Target had Egyptian Cotton on sale, he knew I had been exploring= this. I like it because it is light. I have a couple of heav= y canvas tarps, and I would like to have something lighter, I'm not getti= ng any younger. Thanks for your input. hardta= ck </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px= ; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">--- Randal Bublitz</B= LOCKQUOTE> <DIV>--- <A href=3D"mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">rjbublitz@= earthlink.net</A></DIV> <DIV>we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fat= hers,</DIV> <DIV>we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV> <DIV> <= /DIV><BR clear=3Dall> <HR> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer downl= oad : <A href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com/">http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR= > <P></P>---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.= com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><br clear=3Dall= ><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href=3D'http= ://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C1A465.248913E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 24 Jan 2002 7:12:8 -0800 <HTML><HEAD> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt verdana; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2> <DIV>Mike, I appreciate the offer, and may take you up on it yet...but, if this project works- I'll not be needing it <s>. These sheets have a double layer at the top, regular bed sheet type, ya kow? I figure if I use this double layer over lapped along the center, it will be suitably reinforced? For a rope, or center stick? I figure this would provide a 11' X 14' (approx.) tarp, with a thick section down the middle of the 14' length. I made a paper scale model of this, and it looks promising. I had a similar tarp ( 12' X 18') made from an old army tent liner, and it made a roomy little lean to. Unfortunetly this was probably Korean war tent liner, and it went to seed after 15 years of use. Ya just can't buy good stuff anymore <g>. Thanks for the tips. hardtack</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"></FONT>--- Randal Bublitz</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>--- <A href="mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">rjbublitz@earthlink.net</A></DIV> <DIV>we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,</DIV> <DIV>we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" <ghickman9@attbi.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 24 Jan 2002 08:20:33 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1A4AF.FE7FB960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy, Good advice from Mike Powell. I have one of his shirts and vests. I also = saw he and his wife making capotes and other items last summer. They do = first rate work and know their stuff. Consequently, when it comes to the = sheets, I would assume that he also knows what he is talking about.=20 I am surprised that Magpie has not "chimed-in", since he made a tarp = from Egyptian cotton sheets this fall. He used a Queen size and treated = it with iron oxide and linseed oil. I think his was a 250 count also. = Magpie had posted previously about his endeavor and you might find it in = the archives. I looked at his tarp last week and liked it. Consequently, = I am going out to Target, WalMart, K-Mart, etc. today to buy sheets for = my tarp. Hopefully, Magpie will see this and put his 2 cents in. He can = give you his "how I would do it next time" and also his proportions for = the oxide and oil. Good Luck. Bead Shooter ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randal Bublitz=20 To: hist_text=20 Subject: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Question? Does anyone have any experience with egyptian cotton = sheeting; ie-making into a tarp, or shelter. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1A4AF.FE7FB960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Randy,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Good advice from Mike Powell. I have = one of his=20 shirts and vests. I also saw he and his wife making capotes and other = items last=20 summer. They do first rate work and know their stuff. Consequently, when = it=20 comes to the sheets, I would assume that he also knows what he is = talking about.=20 </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am surprised that Magpie has not = "chimed-in",=20 since he made a tarp from Egyptian cotton sheets this fall. He used a = Queen size=20 and treated it with iron oxide and linseed oil. I think his was a 250 = count=20 also. Magpie had posted previously about his endeavor and you might = find it=20 in the archives. I looked at his tarp last week and liked it. = Consequently,=20 I am going out to Target, WalMart, K-Mart, etc. today to buy sheets for = my tarp.=20 Hopefully, Magpie will see this and put his 2 cents in. He can give you=20 his "how I would do it next time" and also his proportions for the = oxide=20 and oil. Good Luck.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bead Shooter</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Drjbublitz@earthlink.net = href=3D"mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">Randal=20 Bublitz</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dhist_text@xmission.com=20 href=3D"mailto:hist_text@xmission.com">hist_text</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Egyptian=20 cotton</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Question? Does anyone have any = experience=20 with egyptian cotton sheeting; ie-making into a tarp, or = shelter. =20 </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1A4AF.FE7FB960-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <cd252@ptd.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 23 Jan 2002 13:51:51 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_025C_01C1A415.1BDCACC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings to all: I am a relative "Newbie" to this list ... so if I speak out of turn I = apologize.....But I think a lot of the members here are overly sensitive = and uptight. Isn't this list supposed to be an open forum for different = opinions and interpretation of the past? ... and last but not = least....enjoyable? Sometimes you "people" make me want to "Unsubscibe" But I will hold on and hope for the best. Respectfully, Dave=20 ------=_NextPart_000_025C_01C1A415.1BDCACC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Greetings to all:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = size=3D3>I am a relative=20 "Newbie" to this list ... so if I speak out of turn I apologize.....But=20 I think a lot of the members here are overly sensitive and uptight. = Isn't=20 this list supposed to be an open forum for different opinions and=20 interpretation of the past? ... and last but not=20 least....enjoyable?</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sometimes you "people" make me = want to=20 "Unsubscibe"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But I will hold on and hope for the=20 best.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Respectfully,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>Dave</FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_025C_01C1A415.1BDCACC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Y.M.O.S. Date: 23 Jan 2002 13:22:14 EST origins of "Your Most Obedient Servant" I'm afraid I can not give you the origins. It, along with Your Humble and Obedient Servant and simply Your Servant and if religious Yours In Faith were commonly used in the 1700's just as we today use Sincerely. I have seen them used in original letters from G.Washington, J. Adams, and others in many of the collected writtings and journals from the time period. Remembering that they was a generally stricter, religious and HUMBLE training of children in the period (Puritains had the legal right to hang their children if they did not obey their parents). And class structure (at least in the cities) and civil structure dictated a civil society. So as a Christian in the 1700's (and all whites were classfied as Christians in the journals) with a humble Christian up bring you were always..... Your Most Humble and Obediant Servant "in Christ" which got shortened (due to lack of Light, Paper, Ink or Time)to one of the many variations. Hope that helps a little it is the best I can do. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Depth of Education Date: 24 Jan 2002 08:25:30 EST <<it doesn't make a damn if you do have a Doctorate in history.>> A title or a degree does not make one an expert any more than long life experiance. Depth of knowledge is by study, experiance and carefully sorting out the truth. My wife has a masters in History but she would be no expert in American History if her area of concentration was in say Middle Eastern History. (It is by the way American History specializing in 1700-1800.) And my B.A., M.A. and M.F.A. do not qualify me as an expert any more that anyone else on this list. Knowledge can be gained or distroyed by how it is researched, discussed and passed on. Anger does not teach or win converts. There is an old Japanese adage that "he that raises his voice first losses the argument." Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 24 Jan 2002 09:23:05 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01CA_01C1A4B8.BAC69A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hardtack, Magpie made himself an oil cloth in the M.Baker style/method last year = using a queen sized Egyptian cloth and it looks good and appears to work = good. He must be flying at the moment but he's the one to tell you how = it was done and how it turned out. Capt. L ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randal Bublitz=20 To: hist_text=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:39 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Question? Does anyone have any experience with egyptian cotton = sheeting; ie-making into a tarp, or shelter. I found some 250 thread = per inch twin flat sheets for $9 a piece. I bought 4 of them. I can = make a pretty good sized tarp from these. I figured I'd wash them in = hot water, to shrink up as much as they will. Then stitch together. I = figure I'll leave the tarp untreated. If this doesn't work well, I can = treat later...oil? I'd appreciate any input, tips, etc.... hardtack --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_01CA_01C1A4B8.BAC69A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2712.300" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hardtack,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Magpie made himself an oil cloth in the = M.Baker=20 style/method last year using a queen sized Egyptian cloth and it looks = good and=20 appears to work good. He must be flying at the moment but he's the one = to tell=20 you how it was done and how it turned out.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. L</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Drjbublitz@earthlink.net = href=3D"mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">Randal=20 Bublitz</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dhist_text@xmission.com=20 href=3D"mailto:hist_text@xmission.com">hist_text</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 23, = 2002 9:39=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Egyptian=20 cotton</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Question? Does anyone have any = experience=20 with egyptian cotton sheeting; ie-making into a tarp, or = shelter. I=20 found some 250 thread per inch twin flat sheets for $9 a piece. = I=20 bought 4 of them. I can make a pretty good sized tarp from = these. I figured I'd wash them in hot water, to shrink up as = much as=20 they will. Then stitch together. I figure I'll leave the = tarp=20 untreated. If this doesn't work well, I can treat=20 later...oil? I'd appreciate any input, tips, = etc.... =20 hardtack</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV>--- <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">rjbublitz@earthlink.net</A></DIV>= <DIV>we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,</DIV> <DIV>we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P>---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html = </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_01CA_01C1A4B8.BAC69A00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps Date: 24 Jan 2002 07:18:47 -0500 don what color do you want to turn it???? black---gray--- flat--- aged and i'll try to help hawk On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:43:43 +0000 "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> writes: > Howdy fellas, > Anybody here no how to gray down pewter or antique it artificially? > Man, is it bright, mostly tin mix. > Michael Pierce, where are ya when I need ya? > Don Secondine > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: > http://messenger.msn.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps Date: 24 Jan 2002 22:23:26 +0000 He' Hawk, I'm trying to match the antique gray you find on old Hawken guns with pewter caps. What has been your experience? Thanks, Don >From: hawknest4@juno.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps >Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:18:47 -0500 > >don what color do you want to turn it???? black---gray--- flat--- aged >and i'll try to help > >hawk > >On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:43:43 +0000 "darlene secondine" ><dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> writes: > > Howdy fellas, > > Anybody here no how to gray down pewter or antique it artificially? > > Man, is it bright, mostly tin mix. > > Michael Pierce, where are ya when I need ya? > > Don Secondine > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: > > http://messenger.msn.com > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Date: 24 Jan 2002 22:36:51 +0000 Howdy Dave, Welcome to the list. Yes sir, you have the right idea. Most folks on this list are civil and you'll enjoy them. Take care, Don Secondine in the Ohio Country >From: <cd252@ptd.net> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? >Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:51:51 -0500 > >Greetings to all: > >I am a relative "Newbie" to this list ... so if I speak out of turn I >apologize.....But I think a lot of the members here are overly sensitive >and uptight. Isn't this list supposed to be an open forum for different >opinions and interpretation of the past? ... and last but not >least....enjoyable? > Sometimes you "people" make me want to "Unsubscibe" > But I will hold on and hope for the best. > > Respectfully, > Dave _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 23 Jan 2002 03:05:05 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1A3BA.C2290FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, Ned and C.Kent, I welcome and appreciate your postings. I am familiar with the writings = of Russell and the like. Have broke the ice on a beaver pond to set my t= raps. Have been to Hurricane Pass on Horse back. (can see the Tetons fro= m my back door) Have been to the Head waters of the Missouri and Snake. = Have seen where Lewis and Clark acquired and kept horses "west" of the d= ivide. Have also been to the Pierre's Hole Battle site. (my Father was b= orn 5 miles from it and my late Great Uncle owned the property it was bel= ieved to take place on) I love a spirited discussion as much as the next= person. What keeps us honest is the manner in which we challenge each o= ther to research and discover information. I can appreciate whatever met= hod a person chooses to arrive at a conclusion. Afterwards, let us compa= re notes and impressions and arrive at a thought all can appreciate for i= ts own merits. Disagreements occur at times and this is what makes us in= dividuals. I don't, for one minute, expect all of us to agree on all poi= nts, all the time. This is what makes this list interesting and spirited= . However, we should attempt to stay focused and civil to one another an= d maintain some level of reason. Glad to see Ned is back on the list. I= am relatively new to this list and look forward to many more postings. =20 YMHOS, Mike Powell Fort Henry Country Upper Snake River Plain PS. The account of Andrew Henry and his parties at Camp Henry and Fort H= enry the winter of 1810-1811 makes for some interesting reading and what = they did with their horses. =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:10 PM =20 Michael, Experience can go both ways. Read the account of Osborne Russell when hi= s party came off the Gros Ventre country down onto the Dunoir Valley and = then attempted to cross the Absaroka Mtns. They had two mules and for th= e most part they walked and drug the mules over the mountains. In fact t= hey did this clear to the Stinking Water. Today that trail over Shoshone= Pass is fairly easy due to much work done by the Forest Service. I have= WALKED the route he most likely took and much of the route is really not= fit for horses or mules. Had he not encountered the two Sheepeater Indi= ans he would have been in for a much tougher trip. Granted there are man= y trails through these Wind River and Absaroka Mountains fit for horses b= ut there are as many places that are not. My 2 cents Steve Banks =20 ----- Original Message ----- =20 Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 3:44 AM Ned, While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow shoe= s you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, living in= the mountains. Then might I suggest you partake of a few like experienc= es and get your head out of the books and actually experience and experim= ent for yourself on what works and what doesn't. The answers will come r= inging true to you as you put the skills of the Mountaineer to the test i= n your life. One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains very far without = a good horse. Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc = all attest to this. Truly, Mike Powell Fort Henry country Upper Snake River Plains =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM =20 Ned, Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5 pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), = and your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a coupl= e miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had horses. The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between water..........= .. Allen from Fort Hall country. At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >Wynn, > >You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not h= ave >them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 day= s >during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me >a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot >sore, hungry, and poor fellow. >There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus >(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most >horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often >prized possessions. > >I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about thes= e >things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Si= nce >the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe th= ey >spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. > >Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses: > >.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks - >Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page = 21. > >.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell= to >their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East, >their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain >Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublett= e, >Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before >reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog. > >.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procur= e >snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as = I am >of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to thi= s >quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218= . > >.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodit= ies, >munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the >company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page = 1. > >I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references o= f >Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you >list these references, please put the source and page number. > >I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison betw= een >Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come >originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be cal= led >handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food sa= ve >grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, w= hich >usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are >larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, = when >once they are acclimated, are superior. > >What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" ho= rses >were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run of= f >the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel th= ree >or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry hors= es, >and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians. > > Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with la= rger >horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small= to >use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for >American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it. > >This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list= the >liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country. > >Take care, >Ned > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c= omGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.ms= n.com ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1A3BA.C2290FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;b= ackground-color:#ffffff; "><DIV>Steve, Ned and C.Kent,</DIV> <DIV>I = welcome and appreciate your postings. I am familiar with the writin= gs of Russell and the like. Have broke the ice on a beaver pond to = set my traps. Have been to Hurricane Pass on Horse back. (can = see the Tetons from my back door) Have been to the Head waters of t= he Missouri and Snake. Have seen where Lewis and Clark acquire= d and kept horses "west" of the divide. Have also been to the Pierr= e's Hole Battle site. (my Father was born 5 miles from it and my lat= e Great Uncle owned the property it was believed to take place = on) I love a spirited discussion as much as the next person. = What keeps us honest is the manner in which we challenge each other to re= search and discover information. I can appreciate whatever met= hod a person chooses to arrive at a conclusion. Afterwards, let us = compare notes and impressions and arrive at a thought all can appreciate = for its own merits. Disagreements occur at times and this is what m= akes us individuals. I don't, for one minute, expect all of us to a= gree on all points, all the time. This is what makes this list= interesting and spirited. However, we should attempt to stay focus= ed and civil to one another and maintain some level of reason. = Glad to see Ned is back on the list. I am relatively new to t= his list and look forward to many more postings. </DIV> <DIV>YMHOS,<= /DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell</DIV> <DIV>Fort Henry Country</DIV> <DIV>Upper Sna= ke River Plain</DIV> <DIV>PS. The account of Andrew Henry and = his parties at Camp Henry and Fort Henry the winter of 1810-1811 makes fo= r some interesting reading and what they did with their horses. &nbs= p; </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px;= PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MAR= GIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -= ----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: bl= ack"><B>From:</B> Steve Banks</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Se= nt:</B> Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:10 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt= Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT:= 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses</DIV> <DIV>&nb= sp;</DIV> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYL= E></STYLE> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Michael,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face= =3DArial>Experience can go both ways. Read the account of Osborne R= ussell when his party came off the Gros Ventre country down onto the Duno= ir Valley and then attempted to cross the Absaroka Mtns. They had t= wo mules and for the most part they walked and drug the mules over the mo= untains. In fact they did this clear to the Stinking Water. T= oday that trail over Shoshone Pass is fairly easy due to much work done b= y the Forest Service. I have WALKED the route he most likely took a= nd much of the route is really not fit for horses or mules. Had he = not encountered the two Sheepeater Indians he would have been in for a mu= ch tougher trip. Granted there are many trails through these Wind R= iver and Absaroka Mountains fit for horses but there are as many places t= hat are not. My 2 cents</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Steve = Banks </FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING= -LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGH= T: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </D= IV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: blac= k"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Damm1769@hotmail.com href=3D"mailto:amm1769@hot= mail.com">Michael Powell</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To= :</B> <A title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com href=3D"mailto:hist_text@li= sts.xmission.com">History List</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"= ><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 21, 2002 3:44 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: = 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses</DIV> <DIV><BR>= </DIV> <DIV>Ned,</DIV> <DIV>While you're getting all those references on = Mt. Men walking in snow shoes you might want to look up the times they sp= ent on the ground, living in the mountains. Then might I sugge= st you partake of a few like experiences and get your head out of the boo= ks and actually experience and experiment for yourself on what works and = what doesn't. The answers will come ringing true to you as you put = the skills of the Mountaineer to the test in your life. One do= esn't travel in the Rocky Mountains very far without a good horse. = Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to t= his.</DIV> <DIV>Truly,</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell</DIV> <DIV>Fort Henry count= ry</DIV> <DIV>Upper Snake River Plains</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV= > </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;= MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <D= IV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV sty= le=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> A= llen Hall</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, Janu= ary 20, 2002 10:32 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> hi= st_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subje= ct:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Ned,<BR><BR>= Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighi= ng 5<BR>pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which w= asn't much), and<BR>your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that = stuff up and hike a couple<BR>miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly s= ee why the mountain men had horses.<BR><BR>The Rocky Mountains is a big p= lace, lotta walking between water............<BR><BR>Allen from Fort Hall= country.<BR><BR>At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:<BR>><BR>>W= ynn,<BR>><BR>>You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was = when they did not have<BR>>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was n= ot on the move 5 out of 7 days<BR>>during the trapping season and I wi= ll show you three that were. Show me<BR>>a trapper without some = of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot<BR>>sore, hungry, and = poor fellow.<BR>>There are mentions of "American horses", for instance= , Wislizenus<BR>>(1839) makes an interesting comparison between = them. I agree that most<BR>>horses were from Spanish origins but= the American horses were often<BR>>prized possessions.<BR>><BR>>= ;I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about thes= e<BR>>things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a h= orse. Since<BR>>the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is = hard to believe they<BR>>spent 70% of the time riding unless they coul= d trap off the horses.<BR>><BR>>Here are some examples of Mountain = Men not riding horses:<BR>><BR>>.we continued trapping on foot with= fair success for about six weeks -<BR>>Journal of a Mountain Man, Jam= es Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page 21.<BR>><BR>>.On New Year= s day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to<BR>>th= eir friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,<BR= >>their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Moun= tain<BR>>Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, = and Sublette,<BR>>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. = By the way, before<BR>>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the= dog.<BR>><BR>>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now mo= st anxious to procure<BR>>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equ= ally so they should not, as I am<BR>>of the opinion they are anxious t= o bring over a party of trappers to this<BR>>quarter.Jedediah Smith an= d the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218.<BR>><BR>>.We left = there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodities,<BR>&g= t;munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the<= BR>>company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal= page 1.<BR>><BR>>I could go on and on with this, but since you now= owe me 12 references of<BR>>Mountain Men riding horses five out of se= ven days, I will stop. When you<BR>>list these references, please put = the source and page number.<BR>><BR>>I fail to see where this comme= nt by Wislizenus is a good comparison between<BR>>Indian and American = horses.The Indian horses are said to have come<BR>>originally from Mex= ico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be called<BR>>handsome;= but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food save<BR>>= grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, wh= ich<BR>>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, becaus= e they are<BR>>larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites a= nd Indians, and, when<BR>>once they are acclimated, are superior.<BR>&= gt;<BR>>What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "Am= erican" horses<BR>>were superior. When raiding an Indian village, sold= iers killed or run off<BR>>the Indians' horses. The reason being that = Indian horses could travel three<BR>>or four times farther in a day th= an "the superior American" cavalry horses,<BR>>and the soldiers could = not catch mounted Indians.<BR>><BR>> Once Indians were on reservati= ons, the government supplied them with larger<BR>>horses, i.e. Morgan = and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small to<BR>>use as a d= raft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for<BR>>Americ= an horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it.<BR>><= BR>>This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad t= o list the<BR>>liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and In= dian country.<BR>><BR>>Take care,<BR>>Ned<BR>><BR>><BR>>= ;<BR>><BR>>----------------------<BR>>hist_text list info: http:= //www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR>= ----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~d= rudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR clear=3Dall> <HR> Get more f= rom the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <A href=3D"http://explorer.msn.= com/">http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></= BODY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer= download : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</= a><br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1A3BA.C2290FC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega <chrissega1@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Trolls Date: 24 Jan 2002 15:39:45 -0800 (PST) Just a hunch on my part, but there appear to be several/one trolls who have it in for this list. Some of the addresses look like the kind that show up in my spam folder, and I beleive that everyone should probably ignore inflammatory messages from first time posters. I've seen it get ugly on other lists, Lets keep our gaurd up here. I'll probably get some flames from this, but I know the core of this list is above all this crap. One thing I noted in the post from Ned, is the constant use of the Ad Hominem, literally, "to the Man". This is a logical fallacy and thus invalidates the argument. For more on Logical fallacies go to nizkor.org/features/fallacies Sincerely Chris Sega __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 22 Jan 2002 10:03:52 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- > Here is my 2 cents. I think what Mike says is right. Experience has more > meaning than reading. Besides, do those of you who indicate horses were > impractical own or even ride a horse. In my opinion, once you've ridden and > taken care of one on a daily basis, it opens up a whole new understanding. I've followed this thread with interest, and I've learned things from all who have posted, Mr. Eddins included. On horses, as Jerry Zaslow indicates, I've learned more about them in the last year or so (learning how to pack and live with 'em) than I did growing up in the formal schools of Dressage and three day events (that's english riding). A good wreck with a pack horse will teach you volumes about packing correctly. I also find I sleep very lightly when I have the ponies in the back country of Idaho. Woke up one night (last fall) to the sound of a horrible growling... I grabbed my flinter and my knife, then rushed out into the moonlight, buck naked of course, to defend my horses against whatever the wilds of Idaho could throw at them. Fortunately for all of us, the growls, snarls and yips came from the tent of my sound asleep partner, Vern Illi. That boy can snore.... course, the horses have yet to fully recover from the sight of thier wild eyed master running through the meadow in his birthday suit. On history, I know very little of the furtrade on the eastern side of the mountains, having spent my reading time with books on the area that I live in, the western slopes of the Bitterroots in Idaho. For the fur trappers here, both NW Co and HBC, the horse was invaluable, and was the primary mover of men, traps and furs to the main posts... after which they went by water (the Snake wasn't considered navigable). It's also noteworthy that the Snake River expeditions of the early 1800's included a great many extra hands to handle the horses and gear. Crunching the numbers on Ross's expedition of 1823-24 (54 men, 25 women, and 64 children), according to Ross, only about 20 men were available to trap. The rest presumbably being employed to take of horses, hides, camp etc. I could not find notes on how many horses Ross took, but MacKenzie reportadly had about 154 with him in 1820 when he took the expedition out. My notes tell me these tidbits came from Alexander Ross's book, Fur Hunters of the Far West (Vol 1). Regards Lee Newbill AMM#1821 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Date: 24 Jan 2002 19:17:25 -0500 Buck I believe Mrs Jager will do well.... D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:53 AM > Hey Magpie, > > This "Great Buffalo Raffle" is going to be a good one, look at those > pictures - that could be one of us, right Dennis. Magpie does this bring > back memories. > > Buck > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 5:06 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". > > > > AMM benefit event, a "BUFFALO HUNT" in historic Ft. Wallace Kansas ... > > > > The AMM has taken upon itself the task of providing a period hunt > > (1800-1840) with "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE" - the winner will be able to > > hunt on 23 sections of the Kansas plains in a primitive setting, as many > of > > our forefather's had experienced, a true muzzle loading hunt that the > winner > > will remember for the rest of his life. > > > > Follow this link to learn more and buy chances for a once-in-a-lifetme > > hunt! > > http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html > > > > D > > > > Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain > > Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". > > > > > > AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html > > Double Edge forge http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/ > > Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/ > > Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/ > > > > see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Stewart <sardog1@att.net> Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 24 Jan 2002 19:52:55 -0500 It is very well documented that the Astor period was done most of the time using the river system. That implies boats of one type or another. Strange, I never thought these he-man fur trappers capable of carrying all their gear and furs on their backs all the way from Saint Louis or St. Joseph, Mo. to the Rockies. It surprises me how some men idolize their heroes into such myths to the point of not seeing the obvious. No one has yet, brought up the facts that horses were traded and stolen from California to supply mountain men endeavors. A big part of the fur trade. I guess I'll just have to hunt down that material on Walker and Captain Bonneville. It amazes me how some boys stoop to imitating some frustrated female friends I know. Can not you argue and debate intellectually without stooping to " wearing your heart on your sleeves"? Sue, Com'on, give it a rest. As an educated woman, I sure you can provide input and information that others of us dont have. But you dont have to be so nasty to get your point across. He-men, boys, frustrated females...We're all part of this list and we all have something to offer. No, we're not all stoic, unfeeling, or emotionally repressed, but I'm pretty sure that we are all tired of the bickering. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Date: 24 Jan 2002 17:58:01 -0700 And what was it's health records like, have seen a few that when butchered it was found they had the health problems that many of the cow herds had a few years ago. That's something to ask about before buying cheap animals from sales, better have the vet involved. Take care, Buck Conner ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:05 AM > Neat hunt, but I was at an auction the last week end and you could buy a > buffalo for as little as $300.00. A kind of do your own hunt if you pleased. > > Joe > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 24 Jan 2002 16:46:19 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_496d.0ffa.56b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike, Check Wal-Mart. I bought a nice sheet there to make into a pancho. Todd On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:04:16 -0700 "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> writes: Randy, Almost forgot. If you have more access to 4-6 more sheets I'd be interested in some if the price is still available. It's hard to get here in Idaho. Also, I wouldn't treat it with oil but if you wanted to add a little color to it you could use earth or plant pigments. Mike Powell ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 10:42 PM Question? Does anyone have any experience with egyptian cotton sheeting; ie-making into a tarp, or shelter. I found some 250 thread per inch twin flat sheets for $9 a piece. I bought 4 of them. I can make a pretty good sized tarp from these. I figured I'd wash them in hot water, to shrink up as much as they will. Then stitch together. I figure I'll leave the tarp untreated. If this doesn't work well, I can treat later...oil? I'd appreciate any input, tips, etc.... hardtack --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ----__JNP_000_496d.0ffa.56b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 http-equiv=3Dcontent-type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY=20 style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT= : medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt verdana"> <DIV>Mike,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Check Wal-Mart. I bought a nice sheet there to make into a pancho.</= DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Todd</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:04:16 -0700 "Michael Powell" <<A=20 href=3D"mailto:amm1769@hotmail.com">amm1769@hotmail.com</A>> writes:</= DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-LEFT: = 10px"> <DIV>Randy,</DIV> <DIV>Almost forgot. If you have more access to 4-6 more sheets I'd = be=20 interested in some if the price is still available. It's hard = to=20 get here in Idaho. Also, I wouldn't treat it with oil but if you = wanted=20 to add a little color to it you could use earth or plant pigments.</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; COLOR: black; FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>From:<= /B>=20 Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 23, = 2002 10:42=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_text</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Egyptian=20 cotton</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR> <P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Question? Does anyone have any = experience=20 with egyptian cotton sheeting; ie-making into a tarp, or shelter. = I=20 found some 250 thread per inch twin flat sheets for $9 a piece. I= =20 bought 4 of them. I can make a pretty good sized tarp from= =20 these. I figured I'd wash them in hot water, to shrink up as much= as=20 they will. Then stitch together. I figure I'll leave the = tarp=20 untreated. If this doesn't work well, I can treat=20 later...oil? I'd appreciate any input, tips, etc.... &= nbsp;=20 hardtack</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV>--- <A=20 href=3D"mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">rjbublitz@earthlink.net</A></= DIV> <DIV>we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,</DIV> <DIV>we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P>---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html </BLOCKQUOTE><BR = clear=3Dall> <HR> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <A=20 href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR> <P></P> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784<BR></BODY>= </HTML> ----__JNP_000_496d.0ffa.56b5-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Date: 24 Jan 2002 18:07:02 -0700 Now they are beginning plans for a mountain man area complete with palisaded fur trade post. The board member in charge, a guy named "Patch" (I nick-named him decades ago. He liked it and changed his name legally a decade ago. Am I his god-father?), and I are the planners. It could work into a job for me (not full-time! I am retired!) as the Chief Factor of the post/fort . . . at least consulting fees. --------- Hey Dick just got off the phone with "Patch" will send you guys the information this weekend that he asked about for your project, he's like you - haven't seen either one of you guys since Jackson Hole at "Wind River Rendezvous", sorry "The Mountain Men". --------- I want to see that part of Canada and also visit a Hudsons' Bay Store (which I expect to be disapointing)...... --------- It' like K-Mart but still operating in the black, so that's a plus. -------- Take care, Buck Conner Visit this site, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html ~ ~ see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Use of Horses Date: 24 Jan 2002 17:14:41 -0800 Hopefully we have established that the "Mountain Man was a Mounted Man". Horses and mules were the SUV's of the pre-automobile era. One parks a vehicle frequently and does stuff, but nobody would think of taking a long trip without the best transport available (River trips are an alternate example, as noted). My specific reason for posting is to expand on Lee Newbill's amusing episode of mid-night disturbance. I have made a few trips with horses. They ARE INDEED a constant concern and responsibility, but so is a car when you think of it. Especially in light of hauling a trapper's gear, and travelling fast when required, the hassle is necessary. Sleeping with horses nearby is quite different. Keeping them around is a real problem. The old parties posted a watch in many cases, and I have also seen reference to a "Bell Mare" which was kept tied, so the other horses would not wander too far (can anyone explain this further?). During our rides, we slept clothed with mocassins on, and this was also the custom with a pair of men I know who made a months-long ride some years ago. Dealing with the possibility of being suddenly rousted, by a stampede, horse wreck, bear or whatever, is one of those challenges one learns by the doing. The question of night clothes is not frequently discussed in the journals, but there are hints if one reads between the lines. Lewis Garrard, a 17-year old who sponged up experience from older trappers in 1846-7, refers to having a shirt on his back for about 50 days, "quite long enough" when he finally got a change of clothing. Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps Date: 24 Jan 2002 08:39:40 EST <<Liver of sulphur sold at jewelry supply stores works well. >> I wonder, if this is a sulfer compound as the name implies and it works then you may have a easy solution the next time you clean your gun. I use the black residue of shooting my flint lock to darken the brass on my guns. It is fast and effective. Charlie P Webb said that the liver of sulphur works on brass and as the residue in black powder buns has a lot of sulgur in it it may work on your pewter. Good excuse to go shoot a little tomarrow and try it. Like I needed an excuse. I know that disreputable antique dealers have been known to take Brass and Pewter and bury it in a trench and urinate on the pit once and a while to get the stuff to age. Don't know if it works on the modern pewter which has no lead. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps Date: 25 Jan 2002 01:44:53 +0000 C.T., The mix I use for nose caps is a combination of lead, antimony, and tin. I musta put a leetle to much tin in this one. I swear it looks like silver and HARD. I'll have to remember this when I do a silver mounted Halfstock. Anyway, the high tin content is not wanting to gray down. I intend to try the liver of sulphur. I tried another recipe today and I did not like the results. It didn't look natural so I'll try again. maybe the black powder fouling will work. I appreciate the help on this project. Thanks fellas, Don >From: CTOAKES@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps >Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:39:40 EST > ><<Liver of sulphur sold at >jewelry supply stores works well. >> > >I wonder, if this is a sulfer compound as the name implies and it works >then you may have a easy solution the next time you clean your gun. I use >the black residue of shooting my flint lock to darken the brass on my guns. > It is fast and effective. Charlie P Webb said that the liver of sulphur >works on brass and as the residue in black powder buns has a lot of sulgur >in it it may work on your pewter. Good excuse to go shoot a little >tomarrow and try it. Like I needed an excuse. > >I know that disreputable antique dealers have been known to take Brass and >Pewter and bury it in a trench and urinate on the pit once and a while to >get the stuff to age. Don't know if it works on the modern pewter which >has no lead. > >Y.M.O.S. > >C.T. Oakes > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps Date: 24 Jan 2002 19:04:10 -0700 Liver of Sulphur is a mixture of Potassium Sulfides. Has been used for centuries by whitesmiths for darkening and creating a patina on pewter, silver, brass and copper. Generally comes package in a tin like a paint can. Inside it looks and smells like pure sulphur rocks. Powder up a small bit and add it to warm water. Store it in a dark (brown) glass bottle as light weakens it very fast. Mix up only what you think you will need. Apply with a cleaning patch or old bit of T shirt. This is the stuff engravers use to darken and create contrast in Silver or on patch boxes. After your metal darkens buff it back to where you want it with 0000 steel wool. I have poured many many pewter nose caps, knife handle rivets and inlays and the liver of sulphur has done the job for me for a lot of years. Yes, a dirty patch will eventually darken the pewter. Charlie > > I wonder, if this is a sulfur compound as the name implies ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Horses & Bell Mares Date: 24 Jan 2002 18:29:43 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- > seen reference to a "Bell Mare" which was kept tied, so the other horses > would not wander too far (can anyone explain this further?). Pat I am far from a fountian of knowledge on this subject, perhaps a small trickle of hard learned lessons <G> I am blessed with being able to work with an old packer (1960's forest service & hunting outfits). I asked him this same question. What he referred to as the bell mare was the lead/dominent mare of the herd... the mare that the others would presumably not leave. He would put the bell on her and tie her somewhat close to camp. She got grain, the others had to forage. I've also picked up a book written by a fella named Dusty Johnson (Colorado) called "Horse Packing Illustrated". He says pretty much the same thing 'cept it sounds like he turns all his mounts loose after belling the dominent one. He also bells those that might wander off for easier locating. I tried this with my bunch, and found it works..... but that's only for my small herd of three. I'm trying to imagine a herd of 150 horses and the logistics required to keep them together, healthy and sound... a lot of work. I made a living working horses about 20 some odd years ago, I prefer them as a hobby. I have not seen any comments in the books I've read on this subject.... probably one of those common things no-one thought to write down. Regards from N. Idaho... where the weather pretty much sucks right now Lee Newbill AMM#1821 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Date: 24 Jan 2002 22:07:22 EST In a message dated 1/24/02 5:42:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: << (can see the Tetons from my back door) >> Should you ever desire to sell your abode......<VBG> -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Date: 24 Jan 2002 22:59:34 EST Your concerns a valid, but every sale of this type I've been to a health check by the vet with papers to prove it are required before the animal is unloaded for the sale. Joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 25 Jan 2002 00:25:03 EST In a message dated 1/24/02 5:56:25 PM, sardog1@att.net writes: <<It is very well documented that the Astor period was done most of the time using the river system. That implies boats of one type or another. Strange, I never thought these he-man fur trappers capable of carrying all their gear and furs on their backs all the way from Saint Louis or St. Joseph, Mo. to the Rockies. It surprises me how some men idolize their heroes into such myths to the point of not seeing the obvious. No one has yet, brought up the facts that horses were traded and stolen from California to supply mountain men endeavors. A big part of the fur trade.>> What are you saying in this mish-mash time line? And how are you defining the "Astor Period" - Astor, whose activities and holdings span numerous changes in trapping/trading procedures? Hudson Bay and Northwest Company were canoe-waterways-voyageur travelers to begin with. But they were traders, not trappers. Ashely started out on the rivers, but wanted to include trapping along with trading. Lewis and Clark started out on the water but intended to trade for horses on the upper Missouri. British interests using horses and at that time Hudson's Bay was using horses in the west with "Fats" McKenzie down into Bear Lake country in the 1813 era and Peter Skene Ogden down to Ogden's Hole by 1825. John Coulter had traveled all over the Shoshone River/Jackson Hole/ Yellowstone country on showshoes before he ever used a dug-out canoe and got his partner killed and himself in big trouble with Bug's Boys without the use of horses. There was no intercourse with California in those days until the Jed Smith expeditions and it was AFTER this that horses were brought out of California. And where is Astor at this time? I cannot see that he typifies any historic group. He used a handcart to begin with - later wagons - and ended up with merchant vessels on both Atlantic and Pacific waters. He moved his center of operation from New York to the island at Michilimakinac (all canoe country) but turned the western operation over to a St. Louis firm for the Rocky Mountain operations - with horses - during the rendezvous period. Horses or waterways or both - whatever suited the times and the geography. California horses - really late in the fur trade period. Ashley period . . . not defined by characteristics, only his life-span. Smart-assed comments about he-men and heros . . . out of place. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare Date: 25 Jan 2002 00:31:14 EST In a message dated 1/24/02 5:15:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes: > The old parties posted a watch in many cases, and I have also > seen reference to a "Bell Mare" which was kept tied, so the other horses > would not wander too far (can anyone explain this further?). "A Dictionary of the Old West," by Peter Watts (Alfred A. Knopf, NY 1977) provides the following definition: "bell-mare - a mare with a bell or bells suspended from her neck to keep a bunch of mules together. Rossi, 1975, adds that mules will follow a mare with or wihtout bells. White mares were often used, as they were easier to spot if they wandered with their wards while grazing. They were also sometimes used to keep horses together." Watts, p.29. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Tetons at my back door Date: 25 Jan 2002 00:16:09 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C1A535.7D0035A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable C, Lived here for 25 years now and love it. You'd be more than welcome, if = you're ever in my neck of the woods, to stay a spell. YMHOS, Mike USRP (upper snake river plains) =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:08 PM =20 In a message dated 1/24/02 5:42:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: << (can see the Tetons from my back door) >> Should you ever desire to sell your abode......<VBG> -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C1A535.7D0035A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>C,</DIV> <DIV>= Lived here for 25 years now and love it. You'd be more than we= lcome, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, to stay a spell.</DIV> <DI= V>YMHOS,</DIV> <DIV>Mike</DIV> <DIV>USRP (upper snake river plains) = </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING= -LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGH= T: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DI= V> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>= nt:</B> Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:08 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt= Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT:= 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses</DIV> <DIV>&nb= sp;</DIV>In a message dated 1/24/02 5:42:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,<BR>= amm1769@hotmail.com writes:<BR><BR><< (can see the Tetons fro= m my back door) >><BR><BR>Should you ever desire to sell your abode= ......<VBG><BR>-C.Kent<BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text l= ist info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR></BLOCKQU= OTE></BODY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Ex= plorer download : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn= .com</a><br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C1A535.7D0035A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Use of Horses Date: 25 Jan 2002 01:59:08 -0600 Pat, You are getting some modern book & dictionary definitions of a "bell mare" but, I don't think they are quite covering what I believe you are asking. My 1828 Websters doesn't include the term. Horses are natural herd animals. Any group of horses kept together 24 hours or so will "herd up". Every herd has a pecking order and though there may be a dominant stallion or gelding, a dominant mare is the lead they all follow when they decide to find new pastures or stay close by. If you are riding along and encounter a single animal they generally will follow along with your string. A belled mare probably does more for the fellow looking for his livestock than it helps keep the animals together. Are the references to a "bell mare" period specific? I figure folks who made extra noise in possibly hostile territory, where horse theft was everybody's favorite hobby, shortly found themselves walking all the time. I think it was probably more common to picket the dominant mare or a personal favorite riding animal. I've found, on more than one night, it was important I slept with my moccasins and everything but my shooting bag still on. Horses will suddenly panic for, what seems to us, no reason at all. A whiff on the wind of a smell they don't like and a different county suddenly seems appealing. Getting undressed to sleep is for civilized folk not mountaineers. Dry mocs are a pleasure. Recently some assumptions have been made that presume the land was always as we see it today. In 1979 I encountered an ancient old cowboy who claimed he drove huge herds of horses from Texas to Montana in the very early 1900's. He claimed the Red Desert used to have good water and belly deep oat grass so thick a horse could founder in an hour. He blamed BLM practices of the 1930's for the tumbleweeds and sage brush and lack of good water holes. To look at the Cache Valley today and then say it is exactly how it was in the early nineteenth century is ludicrous. The incursions of modern man are obvious. John... At 07:14 PM 1/24/02, you wrote: > Hopefully we have established that the "Mountain Man was a Mounted Man". >Horses and mules were the SUV's of the pre-automobile era. One parks a >vehicle frequently and does stuff, but nobody would think of taking a long >trip without the best transport available (River trips are an alternate >example, as noted). > My specific reason for posting is to expand on Lee Newbill's amusing >episode of mid-night disturbance. I have made a few trips with horses. They >ARE INDEED a constant concern and responsibility, but so is a car when you >think of it. Especially in light of hauling a trapper's gear, and travelling >fast when required, the hassle is necessary. > Sleeping with horses nearby is quite different. Keeping them around is a >real problem. The old parties posted a watch in many cases, and I have also >seen reference to a "Bell Mare" which was kept tied, so the other horses >would not wander too far (can anyone explain this further?). During our >rides, we slept clothed with mocassins on, and this was also the custom with >a pair of men I know who made a months-long ride some years ago. Dealing >with the possibility of being suddenly rousted, by a stampede, horse wreck, >bear or whatever, is one of those challenges one learns by the doing. The >question of night clothes is not frequently discussed in the journals, but >there are hints if one reads between the lines. Lewis Garrard, a 17-year old >who sponged up experience from older trappers in 1846-7, refers to having a >shirt on his back for about 50 days, "quite long enough" when he finally got >a change of clothing. >Pat Quilter > >---------------------- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <Ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare Date: 25 Jan 2002 07:37:00 -0500 I read in The Prairie Traveler 1859 by Capt. Marcy, US Army that the bell mare was also used to keep the mules in check. Seems that the mules would take a likin to the bell mare and it's colt if it had one. They would follow that mare literally anywhere. In one such instance a particular mule layed down three days in a row. Every night that mule would start making noise and wander into camp, position itself up next to the bell mare. Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 12:31 AM > In a message dated 1/24/02 5:15:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, > pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes: > > > The old parties posted a watch in many cases, and I have also > > seen reference to a "Bell Mare" which was kept tied, so the other horses > > would not wander too far (can anyone explain this further?). > > "A Dictionary of the Old West," by Peter Watts (Alfred A. Knopf, NY 1977) > provides the following definition: > > "bell-mare - a mare with a bell or bells suspended from her neck to keep a > bunch of mules together. Rossi, 1975, adds that mules will follow a mare > with or wihtout bells. White mares were often used, as they were easier to > spot if they wandered with their wards while grazing. They were also > sometimes used to keep horses together." Watts, p.29. > > > Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare Date: 25 Jan 2002 07:46:35 EST Bell Mares are used in a since even today if you want to extend the intent to other animals. Horses and mules are herd animals. They naturally stay in groups. The Bell mare is the lead animal as established within the herd its self. In sheep, the (bell mare) is often a goat. A bell is place around the neck so you can find them, letting you use your ears and eyes. That's what a bell mare is. I wouldn't through with the risk of theft, they would have used them but if that's what it says, who am I to disagree. Joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare Date: 25 Jan 2002 10:27:05 -0700 Mountain (Gentle)Men and Mountain Ladies of the List: I for one want to thank you all. These last posts are great. There is something of value in them for all of us. Capt. Rtlahti emailed me that if we were all setting around the campfire none of us would say the things to each other that we do over the internet.this is an observation from a very wise man that we should all heed. Let's get off of Sue Raven and anybody else that we disagree with except to ask them in a very polite way (this applies to me as well as many others) to justify their position. And above all, let's drop this Clint Garrett stupidity. If your only rebuttal to something is that it must be Clint Garrett, you got real problems. My favorite all-time bumper sticker would be: HAPPINESS IS HEARING THE BELL ON YOUR MULE. There are many on the list that have not had the opportunity to experience these mountains like many of us. I have met people on several occasions that came out here for a pack trip and spent most of their time hunting for, or chasing, their horses. I have taken friends on pack trips, or had them at a camp back in the mountains, for a week to ten days at a time. Over the years, and after more bad experience than I care to admit to, this is what works best for me. 1. One horse is tied up at all times 2. One loose horse or mule is belled 3. All loose horses are hobbled 4. All horses are tied up at night Believe me every time I break one of these rules, I usually end up chasing horses down the trail. Remember, packers get rid of any horses that won't stay around camp, and we as individual horses owners do not have that luxury. As has been said, horses are a herd animal, and if one takes off, they all do, including the one that's belled. Besides this, there are some real advantages to getting all of your horses use to wearing a bell. If anyone want me to elaborate on how I arrived at my rules let me know. Some people picket their horses and get along fine. I personally have always been scared of it. If you plan to picket, or hobble, your horses do it at home until they are use to it. I took thirty four pictures of a mountain sheep the other day that are un-believable. At one point, I could have reached out and touched it. I am using one for my screen saver. I don't know what the policy is on pictures, but if it is okay, I will glad to share the best ones. Ned ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Citation for Bell Mare Date: 25 Jan 2002 10:15:36 -0800 Thanks to everyone for posting their understanding of "Bell Mare". I encountered the term in Stewart's fictionalized account of the 1830's. (As he notes in his prologue, although the "story line" is a melodramatic romance, his intention was to use it to depict as many authentic details of the rendezvous period as he could. His work is as good as most journals for documenting such details). He refers to a situation involving a bell mare in passing (just as we might note a flat tire without talking about how to change it). The practices reported by the last several respondants agree well with the situation he describes, and thus we can conclude that this was a standard practice well known to the readers of the day. As far as the noise goes -- there weren't Indians behind EVERY bush, and perhaps the bell helped keep away wild animals. When you read the old journals, it is clear that sometimes they are in "Indian country" and sometimes not (or at least, the tribe was thought to be in a different region at that time). In any case they could go for weeks without seeing any. Of course, these assumptions were periodically punctured by the sight of a warrior party, or worse, a sudden raid. We can assume that the more cautious parties changed their tactics whenever they believed they might encounter hostiles. As I recall, Stewart also refers to makeshift corrals in some cases. Horses spooking must have been a chronic problem, although perhaps those mounts were a little more accustomed to the woods. On the other hand, there were probably a LOT more wild animals including bears and mountain lions. Lastly - we all recall that the "tumbleweed" is a relatively modern invader, which came into the west late in the 19th century. Cattle grazing and other activities definitely have altered the landscape. Respectfully submitted Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: California Horse Source Date: 25 Jan 2002 15:07:44 -0700 Sue Raven wrote in part: No one has yet, brought up the facts that horses were traded and stolen from California to supply mountain men endeavors. A big part of the fur trade. I guess I'll just have to hunt down that material on Walker and Captain Bonneville. I would be interested what you find. My research does not show a direct trade route for horses from California to the mountains. Zenas Leonard hired on with Walker as a clerk before their trip to California. He gives an idea of the number of men involved, over 195, but that number were divided into three groups. One of these was lead by Walker to California. Of that group he writes that, ôeach man provided with four horses, . . . .ö In oter words they had a pretty fair number of horses to start out with. After the hazardous journey across the desert, and a mountain crossing of which he writes, ô This we done several times, and it was the only thing that saved us from death. 24 of our horses died since we arrived on top of the mountain - 17 of which we eat the best partsö At one point they literally lowered their horses with ropes down part of the mountain. After arriving in California they had some loses to noted theft. Finally they had some additions from trading with both Indians (5 horses that I noted) and the Spanish (100 horses and few others noted) their group began the crossing of the Sierras with 350 horses. They appear to make it across the mountains with Indian guides without great loss but of the desert he says, ôThe principal part of our present difficulties arose from the scarcity of pasture for our horses and cattle.ö Later he writes, ôThe next morning we resumed our toilsome march at an early hour, finding our stock suffering greatly for the want of water.ö Later ô We had to keep our dumb brutes constantly moving about on their feet, for if they would once lay down it would be impossible to get them up again, and we would then be compelled to leave them. Nor were the men in a much better condition.ö So that ô we had lost 64 horses, 10 cows, and 15 dogs.ö At that point they still had a lot of desert to cross but their worst problems were over. This leaves some speculation, or room for bedate, but it seems clear to me that the loss of horseflesh in making the journey outweighed any gains made. Of course JedÆs trip left a huge deficit in horseflesh that any trade venture would have to make up if California horse were to be concidered important to the mountains. Now that I have made my argument agianst a California horse source, left me give the fuel I found to anyone who would like to disagree. Zenas writes of the Californios: The dry season is occupied by the inhabitants in gathering the mules into large droves and driving them off to the market at Santa Fee, a distance of 12 or 1400 miles from this part of the coast, through a wild and desert country. Here they meet with ready sale at a profitable price from the traders of Missouri, who repair to Santa Fee annually for that purpose My apologies for not including page numbers but all quotes are from Zenas Leonards journal. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horses & Bell Mares Date: 25 Jan 2002 15:18:06 -0700 Lee Newbill wrote: > > > > I've also picked up a book written by a fella named Dusty Johnson (Colorado) > called "Horse Packing Illustrated". He says pretty much the same thing > 'cept it sounds like he turns all his mounts loose after belling the > dominent one. He also bells those that might wander off for easier > locating. > Has anyone else noted that this idea of dominate mare being the leader does not always fly true. In my pasture the dominant gelding pushes the oldest but least dominate mare and she leads the crowd. All to often she decides to lead when I decide to catch them fer a ride.<G> I have read that mules are even more prone to stay herded up than horses, especially with a light colored mare. My experience has not proven this either way. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Some help needed Date: 25 Jan 2002 17:49:09 -0500 To change the topic a little, I need some information on the 2002 Pacific Primitive Rendezvous and the 2002 Rocky Mountain Primitive Rendezvous. Does anyone know where and when these events will take place? Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed Date: 25 Jan 2002 17:21:07 -0700 Linda, The Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous is at Elk Park in Utah. 7th - 17th ? of July. Todd On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:49:09 -0500 Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> writes: > To change the topic a little, I need some information on the 2002 > Pacific Primitive > Rendezvous and the 2002 Rocky Mountain Primitive Rendezvous. Does > anyone know > where and when these events will take place? > > Linda Holley > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DAVID ALBAUGH" <wolftracker55@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: "BELL MARE" Date: 25 Jan 2002 20:05:35 -0500 COMPADRES, I have been following this thread with interest, I will just mention that in the East during the 1700's through to 1800 the native Americans used to steal the bell mare and use the bell to bring the searching owners of the mare into ambush. Many young boys and men on going out in the morning to find the horses lost their hair. Any acounts of this in the west? DAve Albaugh #1736 AUX ALIMENTS DU PAYS _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed Date: 25 Jan 2002 20:10:09 EST Linda, As to the Pacific Primitive, contact Ed 'Smitty' Smith, the Booshway at (760) 745-2927 or mail to 208 West 9th Avenue, Escondido, California 92025. Don't know the dates, but if you're planning on attending, the Pacific Primitive is set for the week following the California Primitive, on the same property. It would be a GREAT two weeks in one of the most beautiful sites I've camped on. I just heard the other day that next year (2003), the California, Pacific and Western Primitive's have been scheduled back-to-back for a three week extravaganza ;). Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed Date: 25 Jan 2002 20:12:41 EST Sorry, forgot to mention that the California Primitive is near Kernville, CA, in June. Smitty will have the exact info. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed Date: 25 Jan 2002 19:33:02 -0500 Wow!!!! that sounds like fun. I am seriously thinking about going out West again after an absence of about 12 years. Want to see what I am missing and meet old friends. Would love to meet many of you on this list, and renew a few good hugs with those from the past. Linda Holley LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > Linda, As to the Pacific Primitive, contact Ed 'Smitty' Smith, the Booshway > at (760) 745-2927 or mail to 208 West 9th Avenue, Escondido, California 92025. > > Don't know the dates, but if you're planning on attending, the Pacific > Primitive is set for the week following the California Primitive, on the same > property. It would be a GREAT two weeks in one of the most beautiful sites > I've camped on. > > I just heard the other day that next year (2003), the California, Pacific and > Western Primitive's have been scheduled back-to-back for a three week > extravaganza ;). > > Barney > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Some help needed Date: 25 Jan 2002 17:53:57 -0800 Linda, Here is a website for the Pacific Primitive Rdvs.. I'm planning on going to it this June 22-30 in Paisley Oregon. http://eddies.grrtech.com/rendezvous/ppr/Current/ I found it with a google search for Pacific Primitive rendezvous. hardtack > [Original Message] > From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Date: 1/25/02 2:49:09 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Some help needed > > To change the topic a little, I need some information on the 2002 Pacific Primitive > Rendezvous and the 2002 Rocky Mountain Primitive Rendezvous. Does anyone know > where and when these events will take place? > > Linda Holley > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it f ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sign (was Citation for Bell Mare) Date: 25 Jan 2002 18:27:59 -0800 More often than seeing Indians they would discover "sign." War parties traveled afoot, usually, so that they would leave less sign to be discovered by outliers. Like Ned noted, traveling on horses leaves more obvious sign than a careful, well practiced native afoot would care to leave. Even so, woodsmen like Bill Williams felt that they had developed a sixth sense that warned them of danger even in the absence of discrete sign. I believe that the policy of most aggregated trapping organizations was to keep grouped up when sign showed natives about. In strength, noise would not have mattered so much. In the absence of sign, though, and in freetrapper pairings, silence seems to have been the order of the day, even to the point of using sign 'sted of talking. I don't think that I've seen any journal reference to this ... musta gotten the impression from James Fennimore Cooper? Or maybe Shines mentioned it ... BTW, I thought that I had spent lots of time in silence in the shining mountains. Nope, it took an evening when I had to make a dry camp outside of Death Valley (I was taking pictures at sunset and it was way too far to a designated camping area, so I just moseyed up a trail until it petered out far from anything) to experience real silence. No trees about, no wind, no water. Not jack. I sat about and watched the stars come out, and heard the scritch, scritch of a coyote pup on coarse gravel, coming to check me out. There was nothing out there to hear but him, and I was amazed at how that minute sound was magnified. B'st'rd, with nothing of value to add. Pat Quilter wrote: > > {Some snippage} > > When you read the old > journals, it is clear that sometimes they are in "Indian country" and > sometimes not (or at least, the tribe was thought to be in a different > region at that time). In any case they could go for weeks without seeing > any. Of course, these assumptions were periodically punctured by the sight > of a warrior party, or worse, a sudden raid. We can assume that the more > cautious parties changed their tactics whenever they believed they might > encounter hostiles. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tetons at my back door Date: 25 Jan 2002 22:03:19 EST In a message dated 1/25/02 2:16:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: << C, Lived here for 25 years now and love it. You'd be more than welcome, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, to stay a spell. YMHOS, >> Likewise, if you ever find yourself in upstate SC you can stay a while at our abode...either in the city house (suburbs) or at the farmhouse (old, a little rundown and very comforting!!!) The deer and turkey walk the fenceline daily!!! Thanks for the invite!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <Ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Stock Oil Date: 25 Jan 2002 22:44:48 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C1A5F1.E4AB0880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I took the finish off this here GPR stock, took a file to it and started = rounding everything and am in the midst of sanding. Just a few questions; What kind of oil was used in the 1800's on gunstocks? The stock is a = very nice black walnut and I would like to darken it a wee bit, but that = will also come with age. Did the mountain men really stick brass tacks all over their Hawkens or = is that just fancy tv? I can only imagine that the tacks served no = useful purpose other than to identify ones weapon. Thanks, Frank V. Rago ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C1A5F1.E4AB0880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I took the finish off this here GPR = stock, took a=20 file to it and started rounding everything and am in the midst of=20 sanding.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just a few questions;</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What kind of oil was used in the 1800's = on=20 gunstocks? The stock is a very nice black walnut and I would like = to=20 darken it a wee bit, but that will also come with age.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Did the mountain men really stick brass = tacks all=20 over their Hawkens or is that just fancy tv? I can only imagine = that the=20 tacks served no useful purpose other than to identify ones = weapon.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank V. = Rago</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C1A5F1.E4AB0880-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stock Oil Date: 26 Jan 2002 05:46:29 +0000 He' Frank, The old finishes on original rifles and fowlers were linseed oil based varnishes. Every gunsmith had a favorite recipe, but basically linseed oil with various hardeners that were soluble in terpentine. A good hard finish that I use is a modern varnish. Marine Spar Varnish cut with mineral spirits so it flows onto the wood without any drag. I brush the first two coats on and then lightly sand the brush marks out with 400 grit wet and dry. Let it dry overnight between coats. The last two coats are to even out the finish, applied very thin with a 1 1/2" square of pillow ticking. When the last coat dries hard I buff it with cotton duck. This will give you a durable finish that you can hunt in any kind of weather with and not worry about swelling the stock. Spar varnish comes in glossy and satin sheen. I use the satin sheen. It winds up looking like the finish you see on old plains rifles that still have finish on them. I have a couple of old Muzzle Blasts Mags that have a part 1 & 2 article on the history of gun finishes. I'll try to find them if you want to try to locate them for yourself. I hope this helps and good luck. Don in the Ohio Country >From: <Ikon@mindspring.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: Stock Oil >Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 22:44:48 -0500 > >I took the finish off this here GPR stock, took a file to it and started >rounding everything and am in the midst of sanding. > >Just a few questions; > >What kind of oil was used in the 1800's on gunstocks? The stock is a very >nice black walnut and I would like to darken it a wee bit, but that will >also come with age. > >Did the mountain men really stick brass tacks all over their Hawkens or is >that just fancy tv? I can only imagine that the tacks served no useful >purpose other than to identify ones weapon. > >Thanks, > >Frank V. Rago _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Stock Oil Date: 26 Jan 2002 06:46:07 +0000 Well Frank, I found the old Muzzle Blasts issues and the articles. April and May of 1984. "Gunstock Finishing: The Real Truth by John Bivins. Worth your while if you can track them down. On the brass tacks thing, I know Indians seemed to favor tack decorations, but I can only guess about whether Mountain Men tacked their guns or not. I don't know that I have ever read a primary source that mentioned Mountain Men tacking their weapons. My quess is that it was a personal taste issue. Good luck on your hawken. Don _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare Date: 25 Jan 2002 21:37:52 -0500 NED--- SURE WOULD LIKE SOME PICTURES---OFFLINE NUFF SAID----- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California Horse Source Date: 26 Jan 2002 13:52:52 -0700 Wynn, The California horse thing bothers me for the very reasons you point out. I read a long time ago that the Old Spanish Trail was used in the early to mid-1800s for stolen California horses and the Indian slave trade. The idea was that if they could start out with say fourteen hundred or more horses and reach Santa Fe with two or three hundred it was still profitable. The man mentioned as the "biggest horse thief " was Peg-leg Smith. I have some information on him in Jackson. First time I go up I will dig it out. If as Leonard mentions, the horses were sold to Missouri traders, could these be the horses used in the pack strings from St. Louis to rendezvous and for the trappers to use????? Like you, I have never seen any reference to stolen horses coming out of California other than the ones over the Old Spanish Trail. As Sue mentioned, Walker and probably every other group that went to California tried to bring horses back, but my feeling is, it was for there own use as pack animals and to eat when things got tough, not necessarily to sell or trade. The use of California horses and the Indian slave trade (as far as I know, Mountain Men had nothing to do with it) are interesting subjects. I don't have the book, but a good reference would be Hafen, LeRoy R. and Ann W. Hafen. Old Spanish Trail: Santa Fe to Los Angeles (Reprint ed., Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press), 1993. Ned ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20Egyptian=20cotton?= Date: 26 Jan 2002 18:30:15 EST In a message dated 1/24/02 7:22:48 AM, ghickman9@attbi.com writes: << I am surprised that Magpie has not "chimed-in", since he made a tarp from= =20 Egyptian cotton sheets this fall. He used a Queen size and treated it with=20 iron oxide and linseed oil. I think his was a 250 count also. >> Randy, I'm real pleased with the oil cloth I made from a queen size sheet of=20 egyptian cotton. It's light, waterproof, and fairly tough, although you will= =20 have to hem the edges to keep them from tearing. I squared up the sheet=20 (7.5'X7.5') and used the scrap for re-enforcing the corners and center for a= =20 fly.... Figure on about a half gallon of boiled linseed oil and near a pound= =20 of red or yellow iron oxide for a piece that size. I'm gonna make at least one more to keep the gear dry for the Missouri River= =20 trip.... Ymos, Magpie=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20Some=20help=20needed?= Date: 26 Jan 2002 18:57:56 EST In a message dated 1/25/02 5:18:25 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: << Would love to meet many of you on this list, and renew a few good hugs with those from the past. Linda Holley >> Just bring one of your big, beautiful tipi's we can all camp in Linda! Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed Date: 26 Jan 2002 19:23:50 -0500 How about a 17'+ with ALL the goodies......it will sleep about 10 and ME. SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/25/02 5:18:25 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: > > << Would love to meet many of you on this list, and renew a few good hugs > with those from the past. > > Linda Holley >> > > Just bring one of your big, beautiful tipi's we can all camp in Linda! > > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed Date: 26 Jan 2002 19:51:12 EST In a message dated 1/26/02 4:20:27 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: << How about a 17'+ with ALL the goodies......it will sleep about 10 and ME. >> Wooooohoooo! .....<G> I'll find you.... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Western History Association Date: 26 Jan 2002 23:31:53 EST Hi Mike, Ever hear of the Western History Association? Their annual conference is Oct. 11, 12, & 13 (I haven't confirmed the dates but it's usually the second weekend of Oct.) and will be in Colorado Springs. I am going to try to go. Bill Swaggerty is in charge of the fur trade presentation. So far, he has lined up Janet LeCompte to talk about writing all the fur trade biographies sh'es done and working with Leroy Hafen, Mark Gardner (a Santa Fe Trail historian) to speak on the Fur Trade in Colorado, and Barton Barbour (not sure exactly what he's talking on yet. Should be good. How close are you to Colorado Springs? I plan to be at the AMM Museum of the Mountain Man expo and at least a few days of the Nationals, so I'll see you there for sure. Jim Hardee ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed Date: 26 Jan 2002 20:35:08 -0800 Magpie, If a 17' + lodge impresses you, then apparently you have not been in one of Rick and Jean Linseys' lodges. I'll have to remedy that. I don't think they ever built anything much less than a 25/26 footer. I think they bring it to Frog. Via two canoes lashed together with a frame work that spans about 6' between canoes to space them out on the water and provide a platform to carry the poles. Hell, you were there! Surely you must have seen it in the main camp. The gals (about 12 or so) paddled over one day to force some chocolate out of us. No more swimmin nicked for it, We want our Chocolate!!!!!!!!! <G> They had us out numbered and out gunned so they got it fer free! Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 4:51 PM > > In a message dated 1/26/02 4:20:27 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: > > << How about a 17'+ with ALL the goodies......it will sleep about 10 and ME. > >> > > Wooooohoooo! .....<G> I'll find you.... > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 12 females.... Date: 26 Jan 2002 20:46:56 -0800 Capt., It's not the lodge that impresses me....12 gals per tent impresses me....where do I sign up? Do any of you attend the Pacific Primitive? I'm planning on going to this year's, in June. I've never beento one, but I hear they are worth while. South Central Oregon is a couple of day drive from here, but I've seen all the local stuff.... I hope to meet some of you there. hardtack > > If a 17' + lodge impresses you, ....... The gals (about 12 or so) paddled over one day to force some > chocolate out of us. No more swimmin nicked for it, ...... > > Capt. Lahti' > --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it fro ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 12 females.... Date: 26 Jan 2002 21:08:29 -0800 Hardtack, The one I mentioned is in April around the 21-26th and called Frog Holler. Its a half week plus canoe in. Great fun. If your interested let me know. It's by invite but I'm sure you'd be welcome if you mention that you got an invite from Magpie and me, Members of the "Hard Core Elitist Bastards" that camp out on the point in "Hard Core Elitist Bastards Estates"-a gated community. <G> I don't know if I'll make it to the Pacific Primitives this year. The end of May and the month of June are shaping up to be a bit busy. What with the AMM Nationals, the Black R. Party's "Lady Washington" whale Boat trip up the Chehalis R. June 1-2, then there is plans afoot to float the Missouri for a 5 dayer, then Lard' Duncanson of our party has a permit to canoe into the Boundary Waters for a week starting the 19th through the following week and that probably puts us into the same time as they will hold the Pacific's though I may be off by a month, I haven't looked at the signup sheet for a couple months. Anyways the Pacific is a nice one and is on a nice piece of Oregon real-estate this year down by Paisley (sic) along a nice stream. You will enjoy it. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 8:46 PM > Capt., It's not the lodge that impresses me....12 gals per tent > impresses me....where do I sign up? Do any of you attend the Pacific > Primitive? I'm planning on going to this year's, in June. I've never beento one, but I hear they are worth while. South Central Oregon is a couple > of day drive from here, but I've seen all the local stuff.... I hope to > meet some of you there. hardtack > > > > > > > If a 17' + lodge impresses you, ....... > The gals (about 12 or so) paddled over one day to force some > > chocolate out of us. No more swimmin nicked for it, ...... > > > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > --- Randal Bublitz > --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net > we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, > we are Borrowing it fro > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare (But brace yourself, bad joke ahead) Date: 27 Jan 2002 00:32:40 EST With all this talk of bell mares, I'm reminded of a riddle my young son told me. Q. Why do cows have bells? A. They're horns don't work! Sorry, had to do it. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western History Association Date: 26 Jan 2002 22:39:00 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C1A6BA.3FA6ABE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, Here's the scoop as far as things stand right now. Allen and I will be g= oing to Chaz's to help him with a student rendezvous at the same time as = the Pinedale Museum thing with the Bros there. Then we will travel from = Chaz's straight to Nationals in Colorado. With school and all I wouldn't= be able to make it to the October event. However, it sounds good and an= y history buff sound try to make that one. YMHOS Mike =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 9:34 PM =20 Hi Mike, Ever hear of the Western History Association? Their annual conference is Oct. 11, 12, & 13 (I haven't confirmed the dates but it's usually the sec= ond weekend of Oct.) and will be in Colorado Springs. I am going to try to g= o. Bill Swaggerty is in charge of the fur trade presentation. So far, he ha= s lined up Janet LeCompte to talk about writing all the fur trade biographi= es sh'es done and working with Leroy Hafen, Mark Gardner (a Santa Fe Trail historian) to speak on the Fur Trade in Colorado, and Barton Barbour (not sure exactly what he's talking on yet. Should be good. How close are you to Colorado Springs? I plan to be at = the AMM Museum of the Mountain Man expo and at least a few days of the Nation= als, so I'll see you there for sure. Jim Hardee ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C1A6BA.3FA6ABE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Jim,</DIV> <DI= V>Here's the scoop as far as things stand right now. Allen and= I will be going to Chaz's to help him with a student rendezvous at the s= ame time as the Pinedale Museum thing with the Bros there. Then we = will travel from Chaz's straight to Nationals in Colorado. With sch= ool and all I wouldn't be able to make it to the October event. How= ever, it sounds good and any history buff sound try to make that one.</DI= V> <DIV>YMHOS</DIV> <DIV>Mike </DIV> <DIV>&n= bsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MA= RGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV = style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D= "BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Casapy= 123@aol.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, = January 26, 2002 9:34 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B>= hist_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Su= bject:</B> MtMan-List: Western History Association</DIV> <DIV> </DIV= >Hi Mike,<BR><BR>Ever hear of the Western History Association? Thei= r annual conference is<BR>Oct. 11, 12, & 13 (I haven't confirmed the = dates but it's usually the second<BR>weekend of Oct.) and will be in Colo= rado Springs. I am going to try to go.<BR><BR>Bill Swaggerty is in = charge of the fur trade presentation. So far, he has<BR>lined up Ja= net LeCompte to talk about writing all the fur trade biographies<BR>sh'es= done and working with Leroy Hafen, Mark Gardner (a Santa Fe Trail<BR>his= torian) to speak on the Fur Trade in Colorado, and Barton Barbour (not<BR= >sure exactly what he's talking on yet.<BR><BR>Should be good. How = close are you to Colorado Springs? I plan to be at the<BR>AMM Museu= m of the Mountain Man expo and at least a few days of the Nationals,<BR>s= o I'll see you there for sure.<BR><BR>Jim Hardee<BR><BR>-----------------= -----<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/mailli= st.html<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from t= he Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'= >http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C1A6BA.3FA6ABE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: By request Date: 26 Jan 2002 22:52:36 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C1A6BC.261BC0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello the list, By request, Sue Raven asked that I share this e-mail I sent her in respon= se to her inquiry to me concerning such scenes at rendezvous. This was i= n light of the references made concerning the film, "The Mountain Men" w/= Heston and Kieth. Most of you have heard this story and can think of ot= hers like it from many a journal. Please add your favorite to the list. = I'd like to hear them and others might as well. YMHOS Mike USRP =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 10:59 PM =20 Sue, Any present day mountaineer who knows "come here from sic'um" would never= take offense to the factual accounts of the fur trade rendezvous. This = is what it was when they went "without" for a year. One of my favorite s= tories is the account Joe Meek gives at the 1832 rendezvous in Pierre's H= ole. =20 "When the pie was opened then the birds began to sing." When Captain Sub= lette's goods were opened and distributed among the trappers and Indians,= then began the usual gay carousal; and the "fast young men" of the mount= ains outvied each other in all manner of mad pranks. In the beginning of= the spree many feats of horsemanship and personal strength were exhibite= d, which were regarded with admiring wonder by the sober and inexperience= d New Englanders under Mr. Wyeth's command. And as nothing stimulated th= e vanity of the mountainmen like an audience of this sort, the feats they= performed were apt to astonish themselves. In exhibitions of the kind, = the free trappers took the lead, and usually carried off the palm, like t= he privileged class that they were. =20 But the horse-racing, fine riding, wrestling, and all the manlier sports,= soon degenerated into the baser exhibitions of a "crazy drunk" condition= . The vessel in which the trapper received and carried about his supply = of alcohol was one of the small camp kettles. "Passing around" this clum= sy goblet very freely, it was not long before a goodly number were in the= condition just named, and ready for any mad freak whatever. It is repor= ted by several of the mountainmen that on the occasion of one of these "f= rolics," one of their number seized a kettle of alcohol, and poured it ov= er the head of a tall, lank, redheaded fellow, repeating as he did so the= baptismal ceremony. No sooner had he concluded than another man with a = lighted stick, touched him with the blaze, when in an instant he was enve= loped in flames. Luckily some of the company had the sense enough to per= ceive his danger, and began beating him with pack-saddles to put out the = blaze. But between the burning and the beating, the unhappy wretch nearl= y lost his life, and never recovered from the effects of his baptism by f= ire." =20 They figured there was 1000 people at this rendezvous along with between = 2000 and 3000 horses. Quite a sight! Not knowing the extent of your kno= wledge or research you have done, I'm not sure where you are at with info= rmation. However, there are a few books that are still in print that are= n't very expensive that give a excellent view of rendezvous and are the b= asics for anyone's intro to the fur trade. =20 I would suggest; A Majority of Scoundrels, An informal History of the Ro= cky Mountain Fur Company by Don Berry, $7.95, Comstock ISBN 0-89174-028-= 7 The Mountain Men, The Dramatic History and Lore of the First Frontiersmen= by George Laycock, $16.95, Lyons & Burford ISBN 1-55821-454-2 Rocky Mountain Rendezvous by Fred R. Gowans, $10.95, Gibbs-Smith ISBN 0-8= 7905-193-0 =20 Enjoy, YMHOS Mike USRP =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:19 AM =20 I really enjoyed the Rendezvous account. Got any more great references o= r ideas where I can look up some of these debaucheries scenes. Please ta= ke no offense; that is how it's viewed in the present educational literat= ure. Sue Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c= omGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.ms= n.com ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C1A6BC.261BC0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Hello the list= ,</DIV> <DIV>By request, Sue Raven asked that I share this e-mail I sent = her in response to her inquiry to me concerning such scenes at rendezvous= . This was in light of the references made concerning the film, "<E= M>The Mountain Men</EM>" w/ Heston and Kieth. Most of you have hear= d this story and can think of others like it from many a journal. P= lease add your favorite to the list. I'd like to hear them and others mig= ht as well.</DIV> <DIV>YMHOS</DIV> <DIV>Mike</DIV> <DIV>USRP</DIV> <DIV>&= nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; M= ARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV= style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style= =3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Mic= hael Powell</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, Ja= nuary 25, 2002 10:59 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> = SUE RAVEN</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: accur= ate debauchery- more, more!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sue,</DIV> <DIV>= Any present day mountaineer who knows "come here from sic'um" would = never take offense to the factual accounts of the fur trade rendezvo= us. This is what it was when they went "without" for a year.&n= bsp; One of my favorite stories is the account Joe Meek gives at the 1832= rendezvous in Pierre's Hole.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"When the = pie was opened then the birds began to sing." When Captain Sublette= 's goods were opened and distributed among the trappers and Indians, then= began the usual gay carousal; and the "fast young men" of the mountains = outvied each other in all manner of mad pranks. In the beginning of= the spree many feats of horsemanship and personal strength were exhibite= d, which were regarded with admiring wonder by the sober and inexperience= d New Englanders under Mr. Wyeth's command. And as nothing stimulat= ed the vanity of the mountainmen like an audience of this sort, the feats= they performed were apt to astonish themselves. In exhibitions of = the kind, the free trappers took the lead, and usually carried off the pa= lm, like the privileged class that they were.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM>&n= bsp;</DIV> <DIV><EM>But the horse-racing, fine riding, wrestling, and all= the manlier sports, soon degenerated into the baser exhibitions of a "cr= azy drunk" condition. The vessel in which the trapper received and = carried about his supply of alcohol was one of the small camp kettles.&nb= sp; "Passing around" this clumsy goblet very freely, it was not long befo= re a goodly number were in the condition just named, and ready for any ma= d freak whatever. It is reported by several of the mountainmen that= on the occasion of one of these "frolics," one of their number= seized a kettle of alcohol, and poured it over the head of a t= all, lank, redheaded fellow, repeating as he did so the baptismal ceremon= y. No sooner had he concluded than another man with a lighted stick= , touched him with the blaze, when in an instant he was enveloped in flam= es. Luckily some of the company had the sense enough to perceive hi= s danger, and began beating him with pack-saddles to put out the blaze.&n= bsp; But between the burning and the beating, the unhappy wretch nearly l= ost his life, and never recovered from the effects of his baptism by fire= ."</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They figured there was 1000 people a= t this rendezvous along with between 2000 and 3000 horses. Quite a = sight! Not knowing the extent of your knowledge or research yo= u have done, I'm not sure where you are at with information. Howeve= r, there are a few books that are still in print that aren't very expensi= ve that give a excellent view of rendezvous and are the basics for anyone= 's intro to the fur trade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would suggest;&= nbsp; <EM>A Majority of Scoundrels, An informal History of the Rocky Moun= tain Fur Company </EM>by Don Berry, $7.95, Comstock ISBN 0-891= 74-028-7</DIV> <DIV><EM>The Mountain Men, The Dramatic History and Lore o= f the First Frontiersmen </EM>by George Laycock, $16.95, Lyons & Burf= ord ISBN 1-55821-454-2</DIV> <DIV><EM>Rocky Mountain Rendezvous </EM>by F= red R. Gowans, $10.95, Gibbs-Smith ISBN 0-87905-193-0</DIV> <DIV> </= DIV> <DIV>Enjoy,</DIV> <DIV>YMHOS</DIV> <DIV>Mike</DIV> <DIV>USRP </= DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-L= EFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT:= 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV>= <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>Fr= om:</B> SUE RAVEN</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Frid= ay, January 25, 2002 11:19 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To= :</B> amm1769@hotmail.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subjec= t:</B> Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR><B= R><BR>I really enjoyed the Rendezvous account. Got any more great r= eferences or ideas where I can look up some of these debaucheries scenes.= Please take no offense; that is how it's viewed in the present edu= cational literature.<BR><BR>Sue<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR clear=3Dall> <HR>= Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <A href=3D"http://ex= plorer.msn.com/">http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BO= DY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer d= ownload : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a>= <br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C1A6BC.261BC0A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: By request Date: 27 Jan 2002 03:06:25 EST In a message dated 1/26/02 10:55:32 PM, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: <<This was in light of the references made concerning the film, "The Mountain Men" w/ Heston and Kieth>> Not sure what you are asking: just little vignettes for tale-telling or something about the film itself. I was in a part of that film and had some limited recollection (1979 makes me forgetful). Richard James South Weber, Ut p.s. Keith is spelled e before i - not the old rule whidh reverses the order. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California Horse Source Date: 27 Jan 2002 08:49:35 -0700 Ned Eddins wrote: > Wynn, > > > > If as Leonard mentions, the horses were sold to Missouri traders, could > these be the horses used in the pack strings from St. Louis to rendezvous > and for the trappers to use????? It is for this possibility that I used the idea of no "direct" route to the mountains. > Like you, I have never seen any reference > to stolen horses coming out of California other than the ones over the Old > Spanish Trail. It does leave an interesting possibility doesn't it. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western History Association Date: 27 Jan 2002 08:40:34 -0700 Jim, I am a hour and half north of the Springs. And would like to go if possible, is for members only? If you are interested, I can take you on a tour of the museums and historical sites localy. I also have a extra room for you to use either coming or going if needed. Keep me informed on details, and how to get in. Thanks for the info! mike. Casapy123@aol.com wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Ever hear of the Western History Association? Their annual conference is > Oct. 11, 12, & 13 (I haven't confirmed the dates but it's usually the second > weekend of Oct.) and will be in Colorado Springs. I am going to try to go. > > Bill Swaggerty is in charge of the fur trade presentation. So far, he has > lined up Janet LeCompte to talk about writing all the fur trade biographies > sh'es done and working with Leroy Hafen, Mark Gardner (a Santa Fe Trail > historian) to speak on the Fur Trade in Colorado, and Barton Barbour (not > sure exactly what he's talking on yet. > > Should be good. How close are you to Colorado Springs? I plan to be at the > AMM Museum of the Mountain Man expo and at least a few days of the Nationals, > so I'll see you there for sure. > > Jim Hardee > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: stock oil Date: 27 Jan 2002 09:49:29 -0600 <What kind of oil was used in the 1800's on gunstocks? The stock is a = very nice black walnut and I would like to darken it a wee bit, but that = will also come with age.> Frank I don't know what was used in the 1800's, others will probably chime in with that info. But for walnut, to darken and keep a nice 'olde' finish, I have found that good quality, pure tung oil is hard to beat. It is tough and moisture resistant and more can be added any time you want. It naturally darkens as you apply. Then sand or steel wool to a finish smoothness that suits your taste. [the other]Frank Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 27 Jan 2002 10:21:36 -0800 Figure on about a half gallon of boiled linseed oil and near a pound of red or yellow iron oxide for a piece that size. I'm gonna make at least one more to keep the gear dry for the Missouri River trip.... Ymos, Magpie Magpie, What is the finished weight of your 7.5' x 7.5' tarp ? Every attempt I've made at makin oil cloth, I've ended up with something that waaaay too heavy. Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 27 Jan 2002 12:55:19 EST In a message dated 1/27/02 8:20:30 AM, yrrw@airmail.net writes: << What is the finished weight of your 7.5' x 7.5' tarp ? Every attempt I've made at makin oil cloth, I've ended up with something that waaaay too heavy. Pendleton >> Right around 4 pounds...mebbe a bit less. This was made from a sheet, so with the edges hemmed for strength, and the corners and center reinforced, it makes a good, small, light, one man fly. I set it up as a diamond, and there's plenty of room for me and my gear. I think the next one I make will be just a 9'X9' canvas, (no loops or sewn hem), oil and red iron oxide, to use mostly to cover gear in my canoe....probably to heavy to pack, but a good camp or cover for a long trip. Gotta wait till it stops raining (or snowing now) to do it (around July the sun comes out fer a week) ...and it only takes 7-10 days to dry to the touch in the shade. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed Date: 27 Jan 2002 13:12:24 EST In a message dated 1/26/02 8:34:08 PM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << If a 17' + lodge impresses you, then apparently you have not been in one of Rick and Jean Linseys' lodges. I'll have to remedy that. I don't think they ever built anything much less than a 25/26 footer. >> Haaaaaa....no, it ain't the 17' size that impresses me (mine's 20') it's what Linda does to it.... great paint work outside, and just beautiful inside with all her stuff! Way cool... I saw Rick and Jean's lodge at Frog.....huge! ...need a horse just to git from one side to the other. <<The gals (about 12 or so) paddled over one day to force some chocolate out of us. No more swimmin nicked for it, We want our Chocolate!!!!!!!!! <G> >> Yeah..... I'm still bummed out about that. If you hadn't let em sweet-talk you (we had bigger guns) outta the chocolate....they'd have still been swimmin over nicked for it... At least the sweat lodge for the girls is still right next to our camp.....<VBG> Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed Date: 27 Jan 2002 14:00:57 -0800 > Chocolate!!!!!!!!! <G> >> > Yeah..... I'm still bummed out about that. If you hadn't let em sweet-talk > you (we had bigger guns) outta the chocolate....they'd have still been > swimmin over nicked for it... Magpie, I'm thinkin it was all the hooligans and ruffians standing about. When it were only Old Tom and me, they wasn't scared. You and the rest of that rabble that was tagging after our success's looked like you could run fast and might still be functional! Dangerous lookin as it were. At least the sweat lodge for the girls is still > right next to our camp.....<VBG> Yea sure, even with that screen that Brother George put up for them. All of, what would you say, knee high? That George, what a kidder. <G> Got a post from Old Blue saying he'd gotten a flier for Frog and speculating that with all the weather they've had of late, there will likely be a premium on dry ground. I think I'll pass this year and wait for another drought year. <G> Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Frog Holler Date: 27 Jan 2002 14:13:37 -0800 Cap't L., I have a copy of a video tape taken at frog holler rdvs.. It is probably from about 15 years ago? Some fellow got his canoe heisted and the hoisted way up a tree. Some englisher came up with a smooth bore, took one shot which cut the rope and that canoed landed right on the water line, as if someone had just pulled up in it. I hear there is some friendly rivalry with the Canadians vs. the Americans. That rdvs. looks like a fun one? I like the idea of a canoe rdvs.. > --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: By request Date: 27 Jan 2002 15:27:51 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A747.2EF4DB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Just little vignettes would be great of your favorite fur trade stories. = And I won't mind if things aren't quite spelled right, that's not a real= big concern of mine. Perhaps the sharing of stories may foster some exc= itement into doing some research. Which reminds me, I would like to do a little opinion poll of those on th= e list as to what each of you feel were the top three skills a mountainee= r could have to enable him to survive in the Rockies year round between 1= 810-1840. Thank you YMHOS Mike =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 1:08 AM =20 In a message dated 1/26/02 10:55:32 PM, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: <<This was in light of the references made concerning the film, "The Moun= tain Men" w/ Heston and Kieth>> Not sure what you are asking: just little vignettes for tale-telling or something about the film itself. I was in a part of that film and had so= me limited recollection (1979 makes me forgetful). Richard James South Weber, Ut p.s. Keith is spelled e before i - not the old rule whidh reverses the order. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A747.2EF4DB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>All,</DIV> <DI= V>Just little vignettes would be great of your favorite fur trade stories= . And I won't mind if things aren't quite spelled right, that's not= a real big concern of mine. Perhaps the sharing of stories ma= y foster some excitement into doing some research.</DIV> <DIV> = </DIV> <DIV>Which reminds me, I would like to do a little opini= on poll of those on the list as to what each of you feel were t= he top three skills a mountaineer could have to enable him to surviv= e in the Rockies year round between 1810-1840.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <D= IV>Thank you</DIV> <DIV>YMHOS</DIV> <DIV>Mike </DIV> <DI= V> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px= ; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <= DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV st= yle=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> = SWzypher@aol.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunda= y, January 27, 2002 1:08 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:<= /B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B= >Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: By request</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR>In a = message dated 1/26/02 10:55:32 PM, amm1769@hotmail.com writes:<BR><BR><= ;<This was in light of the references made concerning the film, "The M= ountain<BR>Men" w/ Heston and Kieth>><BR><BR>Not sure what you are = asking: just little vignettes for tale-telling or<BR>something abou= t the film itself. I was in a part of that film and had some<BR>lim= ited recollection (1979 makes me forgetful).<BR><BR>Richard James<BR>Sout= h Weber, Ut<BR>p.s. Keith is spelled e before i - not the old rule = whidh reverses the<BR>order.<BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_te= xt list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR></BLO= CKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MS= N Explorer download : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer= .msn.com</a><br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A747.2EF4DB40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: stock oil Date: 27 Jan 2002 19:14:17 EST In a message dated 1/27/02 7:50:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: << <What kind of oil was used in the 1800's on gunstocks? The stock is a = very nice black walnut and I would like to darken it a wee bit, but that = will also come with age.> >> Birchwood Casey's "Tru Oil" works nicely, but don't think it's at all period correct. It's too thick & dries too fast. "The other" Frank's suggestion of tongue oil is period. There are a couple of linseed oil based oil concoctions that are much more period correct than Tru Oil. They're both simple to make & work very well -- just takes many coats. The simplest is half linseed oil & half turpentine. Wahkon Bay makes a stock oil finish that smells & acts like it's this mix. I'm out of it right now, & don't remember what they call it, but it works well. John Cramer, who's on the list is our resident period finish expert -- surprised he hasn't answered on this one. One of the mixes he gave us several years ago is one-third linseed oil, one-third turpentine, & one-third vinegar. He also suggests we buy raw linseed oil & boil it ourselves. He recommended buying wife a new crock pot & using her old one for the task OUTSIDE -- cook at a low simmer 24 hrs if I remember right. He says this enhances the oil's natural drying agents that work much better than the synthetic stuff that's added to modern boiled linseed oil. He also says use genuine turpentine, not the modern substitute stuff that's made of naphtha & other petroleum products. Petroleum products don't "feed" the wood like the natural vegetable based oils & solvents do. Of course the vinegar should be either wine or apple cider based, not the distilled. John says the vinegar balances the pH for a better finish. I still haven't managed to boil my own oil because I haven't found raw oil in the local stores, but I had some heirloom wooden wood plains that were getting dried out here in the desert's low humidity. Sunk them in a big tub of John's 3 part mix & let 'em soak about a week (had to stir it up periodicaly -- the vinegar settles). The loose handles tightened right up & the sole of the planes doesn't scratch & gouge like they did before the soak. I'm partial to oil finishes because a scratch is so easily repaired -- just wipe another coat of oil mix on & it's visually gone. Over a period of time, it will fill too. My favorite rifle has MANY coats of oil & it looks like it's been varnished. When it gets dull looking, I can simply rub it with the heel of my hand or a LIGHT coat of oil restores it natural glow. Apply the first few (10 or so) coats warm & with your hands so it'll penetrate better. Thin coats work better than heavy ones. Use 000 steel wool when it's dry between the first few coats to get rid of the "whiskers". Just the warmth of your hands will help warm the wood & oil a lot. 'Course wash thoroughly afterward. I like to keep the stock warm between coats too -- on top of the refrigerator or a book shelf works this time of year. As for stain on walnut -- I think you'll find just the oil will darken it to what you want. I did the same project several years ago. In addition to what you're doing, I also stripped the blue off all the "iron" parts & browned them. Made quite a difference in how it looked. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: By request Date: 28 Jan 2002 00:55:36 +0000 Howdy Michael, The three most important skills in my opinion would be ...#1 Fire making under any circumstances.(still working hard on this one) #2 Would be snare setting for grub(in case you lost everything like Ol' Hugh Glass did. #3 would be how to collect water in in difficult situations. This question has made me think hard about what skills I really need to sharpen. Thanks for the post. Don in the Ohio Country >From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: "History List" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: By request >Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:27:51 -0700 > >All, >Just little vignettes would be great of your favorite fur trade stories. >And I won't mind if things aren't quite spelled right, that's not a real >big concern of mine. Perhaps the sharing of stories may foster some >excitement into doing some research. > >Which reminds me, I would like to do a little opinion poll of those on the >list as to what each of you feel were the top three skills a mountaineer >could have to enable him to survive in the Rockies year round between >1810-1840. > >Thank you >YMHOS >Mike > >----- Original Message ----- >From: SWzypher@aol.com >Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 1:08 AM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: By request > > >In a message dated 1/26/02 10:55:32 PM, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: > ><<This was in light of the references made concerning the film, "The >Mountain >Men" w/ Heston and Kieth>> > >Not sure what you are asking: just little vignettes for tale-telling or >something about the film itself. I was in a part of that film and had some >limited recollection (1979 makes me forgetful). > >Richard James >South Weber, Ut >p.s. Keith is spelled e before i - not the old rule whidh reverses the >order. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGet >more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <Ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Stock Oil Date: 27 Jan 2002 20:11:55 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C1A76E.DDEE2EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents, Thanks for all the info. After sanding down and wiping the inside of = the stock with Tung Oil, I have decided to use it. It darkend the stock = perfectly and brings the grain right out. I am surprised as I have used = tung oil on bows int he past and did not like it. Ten coats should do = it. Thanks again for all your help, Frank V. Rago ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C1A76E.DDEE2EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gents,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for all the info. After = sanding down=20 and wiping the inside of the stock with Tung Oil, I have decided to use=20 it. It darkend the stock perfectly and brings the grain right = out. I=20 am surprised as I have used tung oil on bows int he past and did not = like=20 it. Ten coats should do it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks again for all your = help,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank V. = Rago</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C1A76E.DDEE2EE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Top 3 Mtn Man skills. Date: 27 Jan 2002 20:35:08 -0500 >I would like to do a little opinion poll of those on the list as to what< >each of you feel were the top three skills a mountaineer could have to< >enable him to survive in the Rockies year round between 1810-1840.< That is a very well-put question. I would imagine that it was more of the top three "tasks" he had to accomplish...these would be: 1)Finding water 2)Putting food in his belly 3)Sheltering himself from elements as needed Same as anyone who goes in the wilderness today needs to accomplish. These are the basic human needs. All while keeping his hair attached to his head and the air moving in and out his lungs. So many skills had to be emplyed simultaneously: observing nature, observing for man sign, keeping gear dry and in working order, paying attention to what his body was telling him, caring for his animals, making fire, marksmanship, watching the lay of the land...and on and on. And that is just to keep himself ALIVE so he could be about the business of pulling beaver out of streams. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egyptian cotton Date: 27 Jan 2002 19:59:07 -0800 Magpie wrote ; Right around 4 pounds...mebbe a bit less Thanks for the info. Pendleton " Youth, is wasted on the young ! " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: =?UTF-8?Q?toboggans?= Date: 27 Jan 2002 22:00:47 EST Klahowya boys, I just finished making some bindings for me snow shoes, and fixen to go out=20 and git frost bit. It's sometimes easier to pull a sled loaded with gear=20 rather than in a back pack, so I'm looking for a wooden toboggan. Anyone got= =20 a recommendation as to size, material (no plastic!), etc.? I found one made=20 of ash, around 4' long that looks like it may work... Also see a wooden sled= =20 that's kinda neat, (PC) but could break in rough country or sink in deep=20 snow...=20 Ymos, Magpie=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 28 Jan 2002 04:40:39 +0000 Dadburn Magpie, You have enuff snow for snowshoes? Where you live? We haven't had snow worth a plug this year in N. W. Ohio. I enjoy huntin' in it. Have fun, Don in the Ohio Country >From: SWcushing@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com, ammlist@xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: toboggans >Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:00:47 EST > >Klahowya boys, > >I just finished making some bindings for me snow shoes, and fixen to go out >and git frost bit. It's sometimes easier to pull a sled loaded with gear >rather than in a back pack, so I'm looking for a wooden toboggan. Anyone >got >a recommendation as to size, material (no plastic!), etc.? I found one made >of ash, around 4' long that looks like it may work... Also see a wooden >sled >that's kinda neat, (PC) but could break in rough country or sink in deep >snow... > >Ymos, >Magpie > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: By Request Date: 27 Jan 2002 21:54:54 -0700 Mike Powell Wrote >I would like to do a little opinion poll of those on the list as to what< >each of you feel were the top three skills a mountaineer could have to< >enable him to survive in the Rockies year round between 1810-1840.< That is a very well-put question. I would imagine that it was more of the top three "tasks" he had to accomplish...these would be: C Kent wrote: 1)Finding water 2)Putting food in his belly 3)Sheltering himself from elements as needed Don wrote: .#1 Fire making under any circumstances.(still working hard on this one) #2 Would be snare setting for grub(in case you lost everything like Ol' Hugh Glass did. #3 would be how to collect water in in difficult situations. I think this is a good question and these are excellent and logical answers. I think my input may be a little different because rather than thinking what do I think is important I am going try to remember what they thought was important. 1. Sagacity. Ferris writes: Every man carries here emphatically his life in his hand, and it is only by the most watchful precaution, grounded upon and guided by the observation of every unnatural appearance however slight, that he can hope to preserve it. The footmark may indicate the vicinity of a war party hovering to destroy; the report of firearms may betray the dangerous neighbourhood of a numerous, well armed, and wily enemy; strange horsemen may be but the outriding scouts of a predatory band at hand and in force to attack; the rising smoke may indeed curl up from the camp of friends or an accidental fire, but it more probably signals the gathering forces of an enemy recruiting their scattered bands for the work of plunder and massacre. Thus every strange appearance becomes an important indication which the ripest wisdom and experience are needful to interpret; and the most studious care and profound sagacity are requisite to make the most advantage from. It is only in this manner that the hunter's life is rendered even comparatively secure, and it is thus that the most trivial occurrence assumes a character of the gravest moment, freighted as it may be with the most alarming and perilous consequences. 2. Ability to travel long distances quickly. I can not remember in any of the desert crossings I have read, of comments about one person or another being better able to find water. They seem more likely to split up and just push through it hoping to stumble on water if there is any. One of JedÆs strengths was his ability to keep traveling when others lay down to die. It was this ability that got him killed down on the Cimmeron. Ogden admired his mens ability to keep going in intense cold with poor clothing. Leonard tells of I believe Fitspatricks run from Indians. In other instances men who could push through snow or outrun Indians or drag their broken bodies another mile appear better able to survive. Sometimes they would hole up or hide but almost always this was followed by continued travel. 3. I donÆt know yet. Maybe I will come up with another one in the next couple of days. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Frog Holler Date: 27 Jan 2002 20:56:11 -0800 Hardtack, If you'd like I'll send you the registration form as an attachment. The Rendez. runs from April 24 to the 28th. Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:13 PM > Cap't L., I have a copy of a video tape taken at frog holler rdvs.. It > is probably from about 15 years ago? Some fellow got his canoe heisted > and the hoisted way up a tree. Some englisher came up with a smooth bore, > took one shot which cut the rope and that canoed landed right on the water > line, as if someone had just pulled up in it. I hear there is some friendly > rivalry with the Canadians vs. the Americans. That rdvs. looks like a fun > one? I like the idea of a canoe rdvs.. > > > > > > --- Randal Bublitz > --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net > we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, > we are Borrowing it from our Children > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: MtMan-List: anhydrous eggs Date: 27 Jan 2002 23:31:11 -0600 Some time ago....a year or more, I think....there was considerable discussion about locating dried whole eggs. I found a source at Albertson's. Now, did anybody document the use of dissicated eggs in the mountains and in our period? Clay Landry cited whole eggs being shipped west in barrels of corn meal and lard, but I don't remember any facts about dissicated eggs. Anybody?? Lanney Ratcliff amm1585@hyperusa.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 28 Jan 2002 00:32:39 EST In a message dated 1/27/02 8:41:25 PM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: << You have enuff snow for snowshoes? Where you live? We haven't had snow worth a plug this year in N. W. Ohio. I enjoy huntin' in it. >> In the Great North West Don,.... Washington State. We only have a couple inches at my camp, but enough to light the fire for a trip or two. The Cascades have a ton of snow, and that's where we do the Winter Camps.... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 27 Jan 2002 21:16:20 -0800 Klahowya Magpie, If your set on a toboggan go short and wide. I've watched a number of guys fight them through soft snow, they tend to tip over if loaded too high. They also have more resistance on the snow surface but it's still better than carrying. Don't know if you ever saw that "dog sled" I made. It's from the Ben Hunt book and not all that hard to lash up if you have some elm or etc. to bend into a few shapes and some rawhide to lash it up with. Sure pulls nice compared to a toboggan. And you make a solid trail for it with your snow shoe track so it don't fall over in soft snow. If your interested I'll send you a scan of the instruction page. But right off I don't know of anyone who has either for sale or trade. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 27 Jan 2002 21:57:39 -0800 The NW Brigade of the RMM is having it's winter camp this weekend up on the Teanaway just north of Cle Ellum and I bet they are breechclout deep in snow where they are. They are having a grand time of it too. Go in with no food other than jerk and parched corn. You fight your way into camp via a "combat course" of hostiles and game and if your good enough the food is provided. Otherwise it's trail rations. Last week when we were coming back over the Mt.s after the Ft. Nisqually dinner I was not impressed with the amount of snow at that elevation in the Yakima drainage but we had us some kind of winter storm this past few days and now it's clear skies to cool it off. Bet its well below freezing up there and probably 3 ft. of snow where they are. Fun times if your up to it. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans/snow Date: 28 Jan 2002 07:18:03 -0700 don secondine wrote: > Dadburn Magpie, > You have enuff snow for snowshoes? Where you live? We haven't had snow worth > a plug this year in N. W. Ohio. I enjoy huntin' in it. > Have fun, > Don in the Ohio Country Got so much snow in Cache Valley last night I can not get out the driveway to go to work. +/- 18" still snowing. Found the horses but you could come hunt for the dogs. <G> Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western History Association Date: 27 Jan 2002 19:24:18 -0700 Where can I receive information on the Assoc? joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans/snow Date: 28 Jan 2002 07:55:34 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- > Got so much snow in Cache Valley last night I can not get out the driveway to go > to work. +/- 18" still snowing. Found the horses but you could come hunt for > the dogs. <G> North Idaho's gotten it's share, it's snowed and temp is going twixt the teens and 20's. Had to digout the tractor the other day just so I could plow the driveway. The horses have yarded up in the paddock and won't leave... even the dog has to be tossed out bark at the coons who have infested my feed shed... didna know coons liked horse food until this year. Go figger... guess they have to eat something since they ate all the chickens last year. On toboggans.... they are nifty as long as someone else pulls them. I was amazed at how much friction they generate... and as someone else noted, skinny toboggans are tippy. Regards from frozen Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 28 Jan 2002 14:49:47 -0600 From "ancient Indian wisdom" in the land of those what invented the toboggan: The wider the toboggan, the harder the pull and the harder it is to get through the brush. The Huron and the Iroquois added length to carry greater loads. The limiting factor is the contour of the ground - a long toboggan is more apt to break going over dips or rises. Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo"hump" ribs Date: 28 Jan 2002 18:08:29 EST Klahowya boys, (and girls) I just now finished cooking up some buffalo "hump" ribs for my daughter and me... and I'm here to tell ya, they were some superb eatin! The butcher left most the fat on, much like a New York steak, and I didn't trim it off, (as some folks would recommend) when I fried em up.... I can see why the "hump" was a much favored piece of meat by the mountain men. I will buy a hand full of raffle tickets on the AMM sponsored buffalo hunt coming up, because my cache will be gone come next winter. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" <nick.de.santis@intel.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: buffalo"hump" ribs Date: 28 Jan 2002 16:02:20 -0800 Ahhhhh, damn, you are hard on a guy! I can take all kinds of abuse, even about my lineage, or lack there of...but I am hungry and reading bout this good suff is hard. Just hard! lots of laughts- LOL Travler -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 3:08 PM Klahowya boys, (and girls) I just now finished cooking up some buffalo "hump" ribs for my daughter and me... and I'm here to tell ya, they were some superb eatin! The butcher left most the fat on, much like a New York steak, and I didn't trim it off, (as some folks would recommend) when I fried em up.... I can see why the "hump" was a much favored piece of meat by the mountain men. I will buy a hand full of raffle tickets on the AMM sponsored buffalo hunt coming up, because my cache will be gone come next winter. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 28 Jan 2002 17:28:09 -0700 I'll have to disagree with Capt. we have used toboggans copied from one that Charley Hanson had at the museum years ago, and it's 6' long and 2' wide with a pull rope on the front and a guide rope on the back. Even went as far as to put the rawhide turned up nose on ours like the original and painted the whole thing "French Blue". I use beeswax on the bottom of the split lodge pole pine to really make it glide, works great in the buck brush and will handle two to three men's camp worth of equipage, sure saves the back here in the Colorado mountains. Buck. > Klahowya Magpie, > > If your set on a toboggan go short and wide. I've watched a number of guys > fight them through soft snow, they tend to tip over if loaded too high. They > also have more resistance on the snow surface but it's still better than > carrying. > > Don't know if you ever saw that "dog sled" I made. It's from the Ben Hunt > book and not all that hard to lash up if you have some elm or etc. to bend > into a few shapes and some rawhide to lash it up with. Sure pulls nice > compared to a toboggan. And you make a solid trail for it with your snow > shoe track so it don't fall over in soft snow. If your interested I'll send > you a scan of the instruction page. > > But right off I don't know of anyone who has either for sale or trade. > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 28 Jan 2002 20:22:38 -0800 Buck, The toboggans I was referring to were as long or close to what your talking, but not as wide and were being handled by one guy. Too much room to pile stuff on that you probably could live without. At least that was the result. I'm sure that two or three guys could handle a 6 footer by 2 just fine. Magpie and most of us are talking about a personal snow craft. I'm not familiar with the one your talking about but it sounds some what different than the usual steamed slat models that we normally come across for sale or trade (the classic "kids down the slope kind). Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 4:28 PM > I'll have to disagree with Capt. we have used toboggans copied from one that > Charley Hanson had at the museum years ago, and it's 6' long and 2' wide > with a pull rope on the front and a guide rope on the back. Even went as > far as to put the rawhide turned up nose on ours like the original and > painted the whole thing "French Blue". I use beeswax on the bottom of the > split lodge pole pine to really make it glide, works great in the buck brush > and will handle two to three men's camp worth of equipage, sure saves the > back here in the Colorado mountains. > > Buck. > > > > Klahowya Magpie, > > > > If your set on a toboggan go short and wide. I've watched a number of guys > > fight them through soft snow, they tend to tip over if loaded too high. > They > > also have more resistance on the snow surface but it's still better than > > carrying. > > > > Don't know if you ever saw that "dog sled" I made. It's from the Ben Hunt > > book and not all that hard to lash up if you have some elm or etc. to bend > > into a few shapes and some rawhide to lash it up with. Sure pulls nice > > compared to a toboggan. And you make a solid trail for it with your snow > > shoe track so it don't fall over in soft snow. If your interested I'll > send > > you a scan of the instruction page. > > > > But right off I don't know of anyone who has either for sale or trade. > > > > YMOS > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! Date: 28 Jan 2002 22:01:53 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C1A847.6C7A66F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Got any more great references or ideas where I can look up some of these debaucheries scenes. Please take no offense; that is how it's viewed in the present educational literature<< Not just today, either! Early 19C fur traders' journals from Canada often speak of how they (or the opposing company) "debauched" the Indians, by supplying them with ample cheap liquor. So it's a historically correct term. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C1A847.6C7A66F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10"> <meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10"> <link rel=3DFile-List href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C1A844.F2FBB830"> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"country-region"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"place"/>  <style>  </style>  </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple = style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>>></span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Got any more great references or ideas where I can look up some of these debaucheries = scenes.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Please take no offense; that is = how it's viewed in the present educational = literature<<<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"'>Not just today, either! Early 19C fur = traders’ journals from </span></font><st1:country-region><st1:place><font = size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New"'>Canada</span></font></st1:place></st1:country-region><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> often speak of how they (or the opposing company) = “debauched” the Indians, by supplying them with ample cheap liquor. So it’s a historically correct term.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"'>Your humble & obedient = servant,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"'>Angela <span = class=3DSpellE>Gottfred</span></span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p= > </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C1A847.6C7A66F0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! Date: 28 Jan 2002 21:32:59 -0800 Kinda long because there is a lot of background detail before the fact. I compiled this to give some of my friends who were not familiar with the RMFT era a peek at how different the native culture was. They had tended to view history as all WASP, all the time. My introduction to religion, OTOH, was courtesy of the Lakota in Nebraska in the early '70s. Maybe some of you pinned inside by a big snow can drag this out and read all of it. Maybe most of you already have. :-) Source: "Westering Man: The Life of Joseph Walker" by Bil Gilbert, University of Oklahoma Press, Norman, OK. Beginning pp.159 {A horse stealing incident where Joe Walker uses his influence with the Utes to make sure that property is restored to the Snake (Bannock) indians} Beyond the threats of force and his own reputation, Walker had another lever with the Utes that Meek did not mention and perhaps did not know about. He had obtained it in a previous incident, where again he acted somewhat as if he still thought of himself as a sheriff, not just of Jackson County but of the entire Great Basin. Returning from a trip to the Crow country, Walker came upon a Snake raiding party that had taken three Ute captives, two women, one with an infant at her breast. The Snakes planned to put the three to death when the proper ceremonial occasion occurred, but Walker negotiated and was able to purchase the women and the child. Though he himself was going in the opposite direction, he gave the women directions and an introduction to his old friend Warren Ferris, who, he knew, was starting south into Ute country on a trapping-trading trip. The women found Ferris and traveled with him until, somewhere south of the Great Salt Lake, they were restored to their people. A that time Ferris discovered what perhaps Walker had known from the beginning: that one of the women and infant were the wife and son of Con-man-ra-nap, or, as he was also called, Walkara. Walkara, already a prominent chief, was to become the most famous and feared red leader in the southwest. The Ute warriors who rode with him constituted the best light cavalry west of the Sioux and Cheyenne, and with them he raided and fought from Colorado to California and deep into Sonora and Chihuahua. He was a man of personal charm and magnetism with a genuine flair for guerrilla tactics. Because of his style and success, some whites who did not have to deal directly with him found him romantic and called him the Desert Napoleon. A Sagebrush Captain Kidd would have been more like it. He was not a racial leader on the order of a Tecumseh or Sitting Bull, fighting in the interests or defense of his people. More often, Walkara rode against either whites or Indians--and often with the former--for personal gain and glory. Even some of his own Ute people found his methods excessive. His specialties were stealing horses and raiding other Indian and Mexican communities for their women and children. Those he did not wish to keep for his personal use he sold in Chihuahua, Santa Fe and Taos, where the slave trade flourished until well after the American Civil War. Navajos, Paiutes, Zuni, and rural Mexicans were the principal victims of this traffic. Walkara's greatest exploit (of which more later) was organizing a massive raid in which he rode to the outskirts of Los Angeles and there stole at least 3,000 and perhaps as many as 5,000 horses. Even the lower figure appears to stand as the American rustling record. Since he was reported to have had at various times thirty of them, Walkara may not have placed much intrinsic value on the single wife rescued by Walker from the Snake tribe. However, he had a Bedouin sense of honor, as well as life-style, and felt obligated for the favor. Thereafter he frequently and openly demonstrated his high regard for Walker. Beyond question he was a good friend to have. Throughout Walkara's domain, Walker traveled and traded among the wild Utes in peace and security. ... There were occasions when the behavior of other resident white men was comparable to Walker's when he aided the paralyzed Crow warrior, returned rustled horses to the Snakes and Snake captives to the Utes. There was an element of self-interest in such actions since they enhanced the reputations of the traders and put potential customers in their debt. However, men like Walker, the Bents and Jim Bridger also cared for the tribes because they were their own people. Ironically, these frontier figures are often remembered only as bloody killers. They did kill and fight but often with their own Indians against tribal foes. Even as enemies, they acted as warriors, in ways the tribes found comprehensible and honorable. The might take scalps, but unlike the whites who came later, farmers, ranchers and soldiers, they had no reason to destroy the independent Indian nations or drive them from their lands. Others, generally far removed from the scene, sometimes found Indians admirable and romantic and became exercised in cerebral ways about their mistreatment. But it was this small group of men who came to the mountains and plains in the 1820s and remained there who provided nearly all the visceral Indian lovers in the American westering movement. With very few exceptions, resident whites took Indian wives, not in such bestial and predatory ways as was often imagined in the east, but as was proper according to the customs of the tribes. If nothing else, this was good for business. "Men in charge of trading posts like to marry into prominent Indian families," wrote Edward Denig, who was the bourgeois of Fort Union, the AFC's [American Fur Company] citadel on the upper Missouri. Denig was a well-educated, cultured man of many civilized attainments. However, like nearly all the company and independent furmen of the time, he had an Indian wife. She was Deer Little Woman, the sister of two leading Assiniboin chiefs, in her own right a woman of exceptional beauty and character, of whom Denig was very proud. "By such connection," Dening went on, "they increase their adherents, their patronage is extended, and they make correspondingly larger profits. Their Indian relatives remain loyal and trade with no other company. They have the further advantage of being constantly informed through their association with the former as to the demands of the trade and the village or even the tent where they can immediately find buffalo robes stored away." Again, there was much more than commerce involved. The white men who came early into the far west found the native women one of the great attractions and rewards of the place. They were fascinated by their beauty, style, liveliness, erotic and domestic behavior. This interest was so pronounced that after having had a chance to observe the behavior of furmen coming up the Missouri, an Arikara chief asked one of them with fine irony, "I was wondering whether you white people have any women amongst you. One might suppose they [the trappers] had never seen any before." For those who did not have the money or inclination for more, there were whores, often with male relatives acting as enthusiastic pimps, who congregated at rendezvous and established trading posts. However, substantial and permanent men like Walker, Denig, Andrew Drips, William Bent and many others sought the pleasure, convenience and respectability of more regular unions. Mores varied from tribe to tribe. The Cheyenne and Sioux placed a high, in some cases almost psychopathic value on premarital chastity--for women--while the Crow and Arikara found this of little concern. But in general, sexual relations were much freer, easier and more permissive than in the fairly inhibited and still puritanical society from which the white men came. The traditions of romantic love and related displacement activities had not evolved among the western Indian, but neither had notions that sex was something shameful that had to be dealt with secretly. Individuals openly expressed their physical interest in members of the opposite sex, and courtship rituals were neither long nor elaborate. In some tribes couples announced they were man and wife simply by commencing to live and travel together as such. More often marriages--which seldom involved much ceremony since mating was generally thought to be a natural, nontheological phenomenon--were arranged and took place after a would-be groom had made suitable payment to the family of his intended. Almost anywhere in the plains or mountains a marriageable woman was worth at least one horse, and in some nations and circumstances an attractive bride cost a dozen horses or their equivalent ($500 to $1000) in trade goods. To steal such a valuable possession was grand larceny, and to damage it was very malicious mischief. Any man who committed this sort of rustling could not live peaceably or at all in the tribal territories since a father and brothers were within their rights to hunt him down as a felon. White men who wanted both a woman and to stay in the country accepted these customs and paid the going price. There is no record of any who took their wives by force. One of the things that most astonished and delighted the white men was the manner and mood in which their Indian wives discharged their domestic duties. According to numerous testimonials, they made not only interesting lovers but marvelous lodge keepers, home economists and mothers. In this regard their behavior reflected the fact that in almost all the Indian nations the roles of men and women were, by tradition, clearly defined and mutually exclusive. First and foremost a man should be a brave warrior and, as a hunter, raider, extortionist or trader, a good provider. Religion, fraternal ceremonies, politics, diplomacy and travel were suitable secondary masculine interests. These were such noble pursuits that it was unseemly for a husband to be distracted or wearied by lesser ones. Therefore, all other work of the tribe or family was performed by the women. This included not only ordinary domestic chores but making and maintaining the supplies and equipment men needed in their business. The work was to be done cheerfully and unobtrusively so that the men would be rested and in a good frame of mind for their ventures. If a lodge leaked, a woman was to patch it before her husband had reason to complain. For her to nag him about the job as a frontier white wife might about a rotten cabin roof was unthinkable, a serious domestic offense justifying a sound beating. "Women," said Walter McClintock, a white man who spent some time with the Blackfeet after the power but not the traditions of that tribe had declined, "considered it a disgrace for men to do any of their work--put up lodges, tan skins, cook food at home or look after the provisions; all this was woman's work in which they were trained from childhood, and they resented any interference from the men." Indian men took these arrangements for granted, but whites found them almost utopian. Beyond satisfying them sexually and caring royally for their other creature comforts, Indian wives provided them with entree into the tribes, served when needed as interpreters and guides and performed all manner of miscellaneous chores--tanning beaver, drying meat, foraging for herbs, making moccasins and leggings, tending, raising, and moving camp--which allowed a man to live well and prosper. Not surprisingly, the important furmen who were able to marry well within the tribes regarded their Indian wives as not simply available substitutes for white ones but as far superior, being prettier, cleaner, more stylish, seductive and much more useful than white women. Some said as much, and many others indicated that this was their opinion by keeping their Indian wives even when they moved back to the settlements. As for the other side, what Indian women thought about white men, none of the hundreds who lived with them left a formal record of their feelings. However, their behavior indicated they were equally pleased. For many white men the problem was not finding an Indian wife but diplomatically selecting one from among numerous eager candidates without giving offense to the rejected women or the fathers and brothers negotiating on their behalf. The vision of shy, trembling maidens being dragged from their families and friends and delivered into the clutches of terrifying white devils is pure fiction. To the contrary, a good many girls who caught a white husband put on great airs and bragged insufferably to their less fortunate sisters about their success. One reason for this attraction was that foreigness in itself often seems to have had an aphrodisiac effect on both sexes. As the furmen were aroused by the exotic dress, manners and color of the native girls, the women apparently found white skins, blue eyes and flowing beards erotically stimulating. Also, while the early plains and mountain men came, as a rule, from the hardest and least sentimental classes of white society, they were, in comparison to Indian men, Lotharios and Lochinvars so far as romantic sensibilities were concerned. Kit Carson and Joe Meek, notable ladies' men, both fought duels over girls--an Arapaho and Shoshoni respectively--with whom they had fallen in love and then married. From an Indian standpoint, to become so emotionally befuddled by a woman was astonishing, but the girls found it titillating. For the same reason, the romantic tradition in their culture, white men made safer, more considerate husbands than did Indians, disciplining their wives less harshly and generally being more indulgent. Most important, the sort of men who wanted wives appeared, by Indian standards, to be very rich. This automatically certified them as good men--that is, valiant warriors, energetic hunters and shrewd traders since in the tribal frame of reference wealth came from success in these activities. For an Indian woman an affluent husband not only made her life easier and materially more secure but was also the ultimate status symbol, indicating she could attract, keep and support a great man. The wealth of whites obviously recommended them highly to the male relatives of marriageable women. Most agreeably they discovered that white men were strangely soft-headed in these negotiations. In consequence fathers or brothers were often able to get two or three times more from whites than that which an Indian suitor would pay for a daughter or sister. The greatest fleecing ever recorded in such a transaction was perpetrated by Comcomly, a Chinook chief who sold his daughter to Duncan McDougall, the bourgeois of a British trading post. The marriage price was fifteen blankets, 2-1/2 feet wide, fifteen guns and "a great deal of other property." Another trader, Alexander Henry, who witnessed the deal, was shocked by it and commented, "This Comcomly is a mercenary brute, destitute of decency." The brides were flattered by the high value white men placed on them and after marriage were delighted to discover that their foreign husbands were exceptionally willing to continue to spend extravagantly. To please and honor his first wife, the Shoshoni Mountain Lamb, Joe Meek, when he was still flush, blew almost the entire proceeds of a year's trapping by buying her a $300 horse, $150 saddle, $50 bridle and about $200 worth of boots, blankets, beads, a blue broadcloth skirt, scarlet blouse and leggings. These were Meeks' figures, and he was generally shaky about large numbers, but in this case he may have been nearer to the truth than usual. [The Little] Mountain Lamb was one of the great beauties of the west, and he was much in love with her. (Hope that you have found this interesting. My typing fingers about given out.) B'st'rd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! Date: 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800 But wait, there's more ... (Sorry Barney, ye have already seen these) >From "Give Your Heart to the Hawks" by Winfred Blevins: MOUNTAIN MATING When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first they fight and then they fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as mood and circumstance might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex was probably one of the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, and the squaws seem to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of marriage, avidly enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies. The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The were property and treated as such. They were saddled with all the domestic work, because a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. They were made beasts of burden and traded like horses. Like many "primitive" peoples, Indians made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and taboos. Their lives were so miserable that some Sioux women, for instance, would kill newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they hanged themselves to escape the degradation of femininity. So the women certainly could expect no worse from the white man than they could get at home. Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians were utterly uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, shame, or secretiveness about it. With rare exceptions, they had no concept of chastity, in the sense of abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys alike were expected to take their pleasure where they could find it. (Adultery was a somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely in front of children or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen walking about his village naked, displaying an erection. Public ceremonies in which men and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept to them in that context. They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings have this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the "medicine" of the other party.> On the other hand, Indian marriage had conventions alien to the white newcomers. Polygamy was common. Wives were a sign of wealth, so a brave accumulated as many as he could afford. Romantic love was a notion that the Indians simply did not have (again like most "primitive" peoples). Marriage was a necessary living arrangement, predicated on economic considerations; accommodation, duty, and obedience rather than love ruled it. Divorce was easy for both sexes: A brave simply told his woman to get out; a squaw simply left to live with another man. (For a woman to be single was out of the question.) For men, adultery was natural; for women, it was a punishable offense--an offense not against love or the marriage bed, but against property. A brave could dispose of his female property as he liked--lend her, trade her, or sell her. A squaw was not to give away what belonged to her man. Some tribes were amiably tolerant of adultery; but the Blackfeet killed straying squaws, or cut off their noses. (Even so, it was common: Prince Maximlian of Wied observed that in the Blackfoot tribe he saw, half the women had no noses.) The trappers, brought up in a society where women covered even their ankles, sat sidesaddle on horses to disguise the fact that they had legs, and never, ever referred to the biological difference between make and female human beings, naturally looked forward to any meeting with friendly Indians as a sexual field day. They pursued the squaws with an enthusiasm quite incomprehensible to the Indians, who had no way of knowing that the whites were plucking forbidden fruit. And the willingness of Indian women was proverbial. Records of it extend all the way back to Vespucci's visit to the New World in 1497. The squaws of the plains and mountains were as sensual and fun-loving as any. They also were inclined to regard white men as gods, or at least as creatures with extraordinary medicine. Crow women were especially fond of white men, which doubtless accounts for part of the trapper's long-time affection for the Crows. Aside from general sexual appetite, a squaw had plenty of reasons to bed a white man. It was hospitable, a way to show the friendship of herself, her father or husband, and her tribe to any trapper. Or she might want the baubles she sometimes got--trivia to the trappers, but great wealth and magic to her. Or her man might want the firewater, the tobacco, or the knife he could get for her. To expect compensation for the loan of a woman was as reasonable as to expect it for the loan of a horse. The guilt-ridden notion of prostitution never entered in. And the white man was lustily eager. The reason was, partly, that he generally had been enduring a bachelor life. It is also not hard to imagine that he reveled in living out the common male fantasies about using women, owning them, and being able to demand that any whim be catered to. The trappers had come from a sexually repressive society, and desires must have been expressed explosively. Think of the elation at discovering that, in many ways, squaws were preferable to white women. They were often strikingly attractive; they had high standards of cleanliness for the circumstances in which they lived; they were clever at using scents and other small allurements. But, mostly, they like to do almost anything sexually. They liked to do things that only whore would do back in the settlements--and that many states still have laws against today. There were blasts of wish-fulfillment. Once the first flush of enthusiasm passed, many trappers settled into permanent or semi-permanent relationships with squaws. Becoming a squaw man, though, was a luxury usually reserved for the free trapper. It was expensive. He had to come up with a dowry in horses, buffalo robes, furs, or other goods. At every rendezvous, he had to buy his squaw enough foofuraw to make her outshine all the other squaws; keeping ahead of the Joneses applied in the mountains, too. And, worst of all, he had to be generous to all her relatives, who turned out to be an entire village, if not an entire tribe. To reaffirm his friendship to each one, he had to come up with an interminable number of presents. He may still have gotten a bargain. He got an companion and a lover; and his woman had been well trained in obedience and domestic skills by her people. She dressed his furs. She made his clothes from skins with a skill that was often beyond him. She made his lodge into and orderly home. She provided mountain cuisine, took care of his animals, skinned his kill, carried his water and wood. She taught his children to be his servants as well. And as a bonus, she warmed his home with the mythic tales of her people and with superbly scatological jokes. For the squaw, the arrangement was even better. When she acquired a trapper for a husband, she acquired high social status and unimaginable wealth. And she assured herself of better treatment than she would have gotten among her own people. A trapper might lodgepole her occasionally to teach her submission, but that would be mild compared to what her mother and sisters endured. If he chose to divorce her, no one would be offended or censorious. He would simply tell her to go home. Perhaps he would even send a few presents along with her to prevent hurt feelings. And then her father could collect a second dowry by selling her to another man. After all, it is no great matter to return merchandise no longer wanted. The mountain men learned to adopt the attitudes of their mentors, the Indians, in these matters. Listen, for instance, to (Frederic) Ruxton's fictional Killbuck recalling his "marriages" for a trapper tempted by a Taos girl. (And notice that, Indian-fashion, he begins his dissertation on marriage by counting his coup). "From Red River, away up north, among the Britishers, to Heely (the Gila River) in Spanish country--from the old Missoura to the Sea of Californy, I've trapped and hunted. I knows the Injuns and thar 'sign.' and they knows me, I'm thinkin. Thirty winters has snowed on me in these har mountains, and a niggur or a Spaniard would larn 'some' in that time. This old tool" (tapping his rifle) "shoots 'center,' she does; and if thar's game afoot, this child knows 'bull' from 'cow' and ought to could. That deer is deer, and goats is goats, is plain as paint to any but a greenhorn. Beaver's a cunning crittur, but I've trapped a 'heap,' and at killing meat when meat's a-running, I'll 'shine' in the biggest kind of crow. For twenty years I packed a squaw along. Not one, but a many. First I had a Blackfoot--the darndest slut as ever cried for fofarrow. I lodgepoled her on Colter's Creek, and made her quit. My buffler hos, and as good as four packs of beaver, I give for old Bull-tail's daughter. He was head chief of the Rickaree, and 'came' nicely 'round' me. Thar warn't enough scarlet cloth, nor beads, nor vermilion in Sublette's packs for her. Traps wouldn't buy her all the frofarrow she wanted; and in two years I'd sold her to Cross-Eagle for one of Jake Hawkin's guns--this very one I hold in my hands. Then I tried the Sioux, the Shian, and a Digger from the other side, who made the best moccasin I ever wore. She was the best of all, and was rubbed out by the Yutas in the Bayou Salade. Bad was the best; and after she was gone under, I tried no more .... "Red Blood won't 'shine' any ways you fix it; and though I'm h--- for 'sign,' a woman's breast is the hardest kind of rock to me, and leaves no trail that I can see of." B'st'rd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western History Association Date: 29 Jan 2002 01:08:24 EST The Western History Association is connected with the University of New Mexico. Their web address is: http://www.unm.edu/~wha/index.html The previous conference dates put on the list were wrong. The actual dates are Oct. 16-19, 2002 at the Sheraton in Colorado Springs. The website has the particulars. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western History Association Date: 29 Jan 2002 01:08:25 EST Mike, The Western History Association is connected with the University of New Mexico. Their web address is: http://www.unm.edu/~wha/index.html The previous conference dates put on the list were wrong. The actual dates are Oct. 16-19, 2002 at the Sheraton in Colorado Springs. The website has the particulars. I'll pass along info as I get it but it'll make the website about as quick as I get it anyway. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question Date: 29 Jan 2002 01:16:21 EST Hello the Camp!! I have another silly question for you all. My daughter's 5th grade class is learning about Lewis & Clark's expedition right now, and she wants to impress her teacher. She asked me what the name of Sacajawea's(sp?) baby was. I said, " Oh it's ..uhhh.... ummm.... I had a brain cramp. Can someone get me out of this jam? Thanks in advance, once again. ZZZZZZZZZZ Sleeps loudly, Boise, ID. PS I will be off of the wire for a few days after tomorrow, I am having back surgery tomorrow to repair a ruptured disc. If you are a "prayin' pilgrim," I'd appreciate any and all. ZZZZZZZZZZ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mitch Post <hiparoo@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question Date: 28 Jan 2002 22:39:55 -0800 (PST) --- WSmith4100@aol.com wrote: > Hello the Camp!! > I have another silly question for you all. My > daughter's 5th grade class > is learning about Lewis & Clark's expedition right > now, and she wants to > impress her teacher. She asked me what the name of > Sacajawea's(sp?) baby His name was Jean Baptiste Charboneau or Pomp or Dancing boy or Pompey......I think.... Mitch Post....in SW Arkansas where it feels like summer tonite.... ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question Date: 29 Jan 2002 02:07:42 EST --part1_d4.1240edb7.2987a43e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sleeps loudly His given name was Jean Baptiste Charonneau They called him Pomp. Good Luck with the back my friend. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_d4.1240edb7.2987a43e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Sleeps loudly <BR>His given name was Jean Baptiste Charonneau They called him Pomp. <BR>Good Luck with the back my friend. <BR>See ya on the trail <BR>Crazy Cyot <BR></FONT></HTML> --part1_d4.1240edb7.2987a43e_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question Date: 29 Jan 2002 02:15:02 EST I shoulda knowed that! I thought that was it but just couldn't remember. Thanx to all of you for your help. Knew I could turn to y'all for help. Thanx again. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Sleeps loudly Boise ID ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question Date: 29 Jan 2002 01:14:01 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A862.3C8E3AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WSmith, You're gonna get a bunch of reply to this one I'm sure. The babies name = is Jean Baptise Charboneau. =20 Hope your daughter enjoys learning about L&C, I enjoy that part of histor= y myself. YMHOS Mike Powell USRP =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:39 PM =20 Hello the Camp!! I have another silly question for you all. My daughter's 5th grade c= lass is learning about Lewis & Clark's expedition right now, and she wants to impress her teacher. She asked me what the name of Sacajawea's(sp?) baby was. I said, " Oh it's ..uhhh.... ummm.... I had a brain cramp. Can someone get me out of this jam? Thanks in advance, once again. ZZZZZZZZZZ Sleeps loudly, Boise, ID. PS I will be off of the wire for a few days after tomorrow, I am having b= ack surgery tomorrow to repair a ruptured disc. If you are a "prayin' pilgri= m," I'd appreciate any and all. ZZZZZZZZZZ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A862.3C8E3AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>WSmith,</DIV> = <DIV>You're gonna get a bunch of reply to this one I'm sure. T= he babies name is Jean Baptise Charboneau. </DIV> <DIV>Hope yo= ur daughter enjoys learning about L&C, I enjoy that part of history m= yself.</DIV> <DIV>YMHOS</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell</DIV> <DIV>USRP </DIV= > <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT= : 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"= FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGR= OUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> WSmith4100@ao= l.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January = 28, 2002 11:39 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_t= ext@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:<= /B> MtMan-List: My daughter's history question</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Hel= lo the Camp!!<BR> I have another silly question for you= all. My daughter's 5th grade class<BR>is learning about Lewis &= ; Clark's expedition right now, and she wants to<BR>impress her teacher.&= nbsp; She asked me what the name of Sacajawea's(sp?) baby<BR>was. I= said, " Oh it's ..uhhh.... ummm.... I had a brain cramp. Can= <BR>someone get me out of this jam? Thanks in advance, once again.<= BR><BR>ZZZZZZZZZZ<BR>Sleeps loudly,<BR>Boise, ID.<BR><BR>PS I will be off= of the wire for a few days after tomorrow, I am having back<BR>surgery t= omorrow to repair a ruptured disc. If you are a "prayin' pilgrim,"<= BR>I'd appreciate any and all.<BR><BR>ZZZZZZZZZZ<BR><BR>-----------------= -----<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/mailli= st.html<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from t= he Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'= >http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A862.3C8E3AA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! Date: 29 Jan 2002 10:53:05 -0700 B'st'rd Very interesting. You did a good job bring out what is in the early Fur Trade literature. My comments are not directed at you, or the Mountain Men that had Indian wives. "The majority of the children born to Mountain Men (with Indian wives) were born in wedlock. Of the 226 married trappers, 169 or 75% fathered 880 children, or an average of nearly four children per married subject..." (The Mountain Men-A Statistical Review by Richard J. Fehrman.) Percentage wise this is much higher than exists in many communities and cultures today. Too much of our view of the Indian woman, comes from the early traders and trappers that in most case had no better morals than the husbands and fathers that offered their wives and daughters to them. These were the Indians that they knew, so these were the stories that they wrote, or told, about. This total lack of morals does not, and did not, apply to all Indian men and women. Let me give an example of morality within the Crow Nation in relation to the Sun Dance Ceremony."It is essential to select an absolutely virtuous woman to serve as Tree-notcher, one who had been purchased in marriage and had been scrupulously chaste. Even eligible women might decline, however, because by accepting the position they forfeited the right to remarry if widowed.to accept was equivalent to an oath, and perjury would bring bad luck to the camp. The formula of refusal because of unchastity was: "My moccasin has a hole in it."." (The Crow Indians, Robert H. Lowie, page 312). Loose women were not ostracized as in white society, but among many Indian tribes, virgins and chaste married women were highly revered, even considered a tribal asset--without them, there would have been no Sun Dance Ceremony. Tribal life was governed by many sexual taboos. For example, a brother and sister could not be alone or even talking to each other after a certain age; marriage between members of the same Clan was forbidden. In many tribes, i.e. the six tribes of the Iroquois League, women yielded great power within the tribe. In some Plains tribes, women owned the lodges and most of the belongs in it, and often owned the pack horses to move the lodge. For early writers to say that Indian woman were nothing more than slaves, or property, is highly questionable. Ned ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! Date: 29 Jan 2002 10:39:35 -0800 Ned Eddins wrote: > {snipped} > Too much of our view of the Indian woman, comes from the early traders and > trappers that in most case had no better morals than the husbands and > fathers that offered their wives and daughters to them. These were the > Indians that they knew, so these were the stories that they wrote, or told, > about. > > This total lack of morals does not, and did not, apply to all Indian men and > women. Here is the root of fallacy. Why do you judge native culture by white standards? They are different cultures, and to say that there was a total lack of morals is a view from a jaundiced perspective. Most native individuals were moral in the context of the structure of their society. Your postulate is pretty offensive to me and obscures some of the weight of your cogent arguments. For instance, when the Corps of Exploration wintered at the Mandan nation (going from memory here, all of my L&C books are visiting good homes right now) some braves offered their wives to the visitors not due to social custom or lack of morals, but because they believed that the medicine of the visitors would accrue to them through the loins of the wife. Morality was not involved ... the act was not moral or immoral in the native context. > Let me give an example of morality within the Crow Nation in relation to the > Sun Dance Ceremony."It is essential to select an absolutely virtuous woman > to serve as Tree-notcher, one who had been purchased in marriage and had > been scrupulously chaste. Even eligible women might decline, however, > because by accepting the position they forfeited the right to remarry if > widowed.to accept was equivalent to an oath, and perjury would bring bad > luck to the camp. The formula of refusal because of unchastity was: "My > moccasin has a hole in it."." (The Crow Indians, Robert H. Lowie, page 312). > > Loose women were not ostracized as in white society, but among many Indian > tribes, virgins and chaste married women were highly revered, even > considered a tribal asset--without them, there would have been no Sun Dance > Ceremony. That's because this measuring stick was peculiar to the white culture. "Loose women" did not exist in some tribes because they had no concept of "looseness." > Tribal life was governed by many sexual taboos. For example, a > brother and sister could not be alone or even talking to each other after a > certain age; marriage between members of the same Clan was forbidden. > > In many tribes, i.e. the six tribes of the Iroquois League, women yielded > great power within the tribe. I think that here you have mis-typed "yielded" for "wielded," correct? > In some Plains tribes, women owned the lodges > and most of the belongs in it, and often owned the pack horses to move the > lodge. For early writers to say that Indian woman were nothing more than > slaves, or property, is highly questionable. It just reflects forcing their experiences through the sieve of their culture. B'st'rd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty Date: 29 Jan 2002 12:02:41 -0800 <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P> </P></DIV> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TBODY> <DIV> </DIV> <TR vAlign=top> <DIV> </DIV> <TR bgColor=#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right><B>Date:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width="100%">Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=white> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=2><IMG height=1 src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=1 border=0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right><B>From:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width="100%">"JW Stephens" <lray@mindspring.com> | <B><A href="http://us.f114.mail.yahoo.com/ym/BlockSender?NBR=1&NE=lray@mindspring.com&box=Inbox&MsgId=5914_689771_61633_1600_5219_0_5849&inc=&num=&Search=&YY=59616&order=down&sort=date&pos=0">Block Address </A></B> | <B><A href="javascript:document.frmAddAddrs.submit()">Add to Address Book</A></B></FONT></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=white> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=2><IMG height=1 src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=1 border=0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right><B>To:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width="100%">hist_text@lists.xmission.com</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=white> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=2><IMG height=1 src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=1 border=0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right><B>Subject:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width="100%">Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=white> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=2><IMG height=1 src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=1 border=0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right><B>Reply-to:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width="100%">hist_text@lists.xmission.com</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=white> <DIV> </DIV> <TD colSpan=2><IMG height=1 src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=1 border=0></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><TD bgColor="#eeeeee" vAlign="top"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <FORM name=frmAddAddrs action=http://address.mail.yahoo.com/yab/us?v=YM&cmode=1&Lang=us method=post> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></FORM></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">Now I've got to cross wires with both of you great men: Ned Eddins and </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">J.W. Stephens. In that </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">Ned has got it right for the most part. And J.W.'s </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">reference is correct. </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">The overall problem however is the ethnocentricism </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">of the author; a </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">white man. Frequently other cultures have throughout history </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">defended </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and veiwed</FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE align="Left"><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">lesser culture.</FONT></PRE></DIV><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV></FONT> MOUNTAIN MATING <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first they fight and then <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>they <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as mood and circumstance <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex was probably one of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, and the squaws seem <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of marriage, avidly <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies. <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The were property and <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>treated as such. They were saddled with all the domestic work, because <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. They were made beasts of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>burden and traded like horses. Like many "primitive" peoples, Indians <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and taboos. Their lives <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>were so miserable that some Sioux women, for instance, would kill <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they hanged themselves to <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>escape the degradation of femininity. So the women certainly could <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>expect no worse from the white man than they could get at home.</PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in the east. Only when </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal structure. Where back east the </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a woman gave and taught the pipe it should </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">be women in command. Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a zoological economy</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted. Since men now supplied </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited by the calf pipe woman, the </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">myth made a 180 circle. The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy still had a strong hold. </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">The camp was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could prevail without the</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> other. </FONT> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians were utterly <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, shame, or secretiveness about it. <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>With rare exceptions, they had no concept of chastity, in the sense of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys alike were expected <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to take their pleasure where they could find it. (Adultery was a <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely in front of children <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen walking about his <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>village naked, displaying an erection.</PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">The Crow were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">mountain nations. But most of the plains tribe's husbands would and could cut a woman's </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">throat or nose for adultery. Little girls wore rawhide girdles and heard </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would sneak in to </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">copulate with the young girls. And as Ned said, the Sun Dance pole could </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">only be cut by a virgin. Thus most of the adulterous affairs and pre-marital</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low village </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">reputation. </FONT></PRE><PRE> Public ceremonies in which men <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>them in that context.</PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">J. W., I have to disagree as many authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">talk of </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">a man caught in adultery and his punishment. The double standard </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's past, </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">as the man's punishment was less severe. A husband could demand </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing. If he</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"> protested he could be killed by the angry husband and it seen as noboby's </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">business. Contrasted </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">to the wife, whom lost her life or nose. </FONT></PRE><PRE>They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings have this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the "medicine" of the other party.> <FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">As I understand, the berdash, were for the most part a cast among </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">the Osage. Of males whom did not have the genetic qualities to pass </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">into the population. Rather than practice infanticide they allowed </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed. Yet as </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">you have pointed out, homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">qualities. Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">female traits of their being. And the sodomy you mentioned, most likely</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">happened with prisoners and the dead. In "Hantha Yo"(not sure of spelling) the author </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">mentions this form of torture. Why else at the Big Horn did so many </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if captured</FONT>?</PRE> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_etl_EN.asp'>http://explorer.msn.com</a>.<br></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" <nick.de.santis@intel.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty Date: 29 Jan 2002 13:03:33 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1A908.696BA7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I had me an ethnocentricism oncet. It hurt bad. :) Sorry, I could not help myself! I truly do appreciate the discussion. I am learning a lot. Travler -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:03 PM Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800 <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif> "JW Stephens" <lray@mindspring.com> | Block <http://us.f114.mail.yahoo.com/ym/BlockSender?NBR=1&NE=lray@mindspring.com&b ox=Inbox&MsgId=5914_689771_61633_1600_5219_0_5849&inc=&num=&Search=&YY=59616 &order=down&sort=date&pos=0> Address | Add to Address <javascript:document.frmAddAddrs.submit()> Book <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif> hist_text@lists.xmission.com <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif> Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif> Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif> Now I've got to cross wires with both of you great men: Ned Eddins and J.W. Stephens. In that Ned has got it right for the most part. And J.W.'s reference is correct. The overall problem however is the ethnocentricism of the author; a white man. Frequently other cultures have throughout history defended their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and veiwed lesser culture. MOUNTAIN MATING When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first they fight and then they fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as mood and circumstance might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex was probably one of the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, and the squaws seem to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of marriage, avidly enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies. The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The were property and treated as such. They were saddled with all the domestic work, because a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. They were made beasts of burden and traded like horses. Like many "primitive" peoples, Indians made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and taboos. Their lives were so miserable that some Sioux women, for instance, would kill newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they hanged themselves to escape the degradation of femininity. So the women certainly could expect no worse from the white man than they could get at home. As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in the east. Only when they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal structure. Where back east the 'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a woman gave and taught the pipe it should be women in command. Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a zoological economy with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted. Since men now supplied the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited by the calf pipe woman, the myth made a 180 circle. The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy still had a strong hold. The camp was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could prevail without the other. Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians were utterly uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, shame, or secretiveness about it. With rare exceptions, they had no concept of chastity, in the sense of abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys alike were expected to take their pleasure where they could find it. (Adultery was a somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely in front of children or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen walking about his village naked, displaying an erection. The Crow were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and mountain nations. But most of the plains tribe's husbands would and could cut a woman's throat or nose for adultery. Little girls wore rawhide girdles and heard stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would sneak in to copulate with the young girls. And as Ned said, the Sun Dance pole could only be cut by a virgin. Thus most of the adulterous affairs and pre-marital unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low village reputation. Public ceremonies in which men and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept to them in that context. J. W., I have to disagree as many authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, talk of a man caught in adultery and his punishment. The double standard evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's past, as the man's punishment was less severe. A husband could demand everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing. If he protested he could be killed by the angry husband and it seen as noboby's business. Contrasted to the wife, whom lost her life or nose. They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings have this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the "medicine" of the other party.> As I understand, the berdash, were for the most part a cast among the Osage. Of males whom did not have the genetic qualities to pass into the population. Rather than practice infanticide they allowed a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed. Yet as you have pointed out, homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit qualities. Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and female traits of their being. And the sodomy you mentioned, most likely happened with prisoners and the dead. In "Hantha Yo"(not sure of spelling) the author mentions this form of torture. Why else at the Big Horn did so many officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if captured? _____ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com <http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_etl_EN.asp> . ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1A908.696BA7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2712.300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D056505620-29012002><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I had=20 me an <FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000000 = size=3D3>ethnocentricism=20 oncet. It hurt bad. :)</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D056505620-29012002><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans = MS">Sorry, I could=20 not help myself! </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D056505620-29012002><FONT=20 face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D056505620-29012002><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">I = truly do=20 appreciate the discussion. I am learning a lot. = </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D056505620-29012002><FONT=20 face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D056505620-29012002><FONT=20 face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Travler</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20 size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> SUE RAVEN=20 [mailto:blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, = January 29,=20 2002 12:03 PM<BR><B>To:</B> = hist_text@lists.xmission.com<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20 MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal = sexualty<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <P> </P></DIV> <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" border=3D0> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TBODY> <DIV> </DIV> <TR vAlign=3Dtop> <DIV> </DIV> <TR bgColor=3D#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright><B>Date:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width=3D"100%">Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3Dwhite> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=3D2><IMG height=3D1=20 src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=3D1 = border=3D0=20 NOSEND=3D"1"></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3D#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright><B>From:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width=3D"100%">"JW Stephens"=20 <lray@mindspring.com> | <B><A=20 = href=3D"http://us.f114.mail.yahoo.com/ym/BlockSender?NBR=3D1&NE=3Dlr= ay@mindspring.com&box=3DInbox&MsgId=3D5914_689771_61633_1600_521= 9_0_5849&inc=3D&num=3D&Search=3D&YY=3D59616&order=3D= down&sort=3Ddate&pos=3D0">Block=20 Address </A></B> | <B><A=20 href=3D"javascript:document.frmAddAddrs.submit()">Add to = Address=20 Book</A></B></FONT></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3Dwhite> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=3D2><IMG height=3D1=20 src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=3D1 = border=3D0=20 NOSEND=3D"1"></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3D#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright><B>To:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width=3D"100%">hist_text@lists.xmission.com</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3Dwhite> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=3D2><IMG height=3D1=20 src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=3D1 = border=3D0=20 NOSEND=3D"1"></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3D#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright><B>Subject:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width=3D"100%">Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, = more!</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3Dwhite> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=3D2><IMG height=3D1=20 src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=3D1 = border=3D0=20 NOSEND=3D"1"></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3D#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright><B>Reply-to:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width=3D"100%">hist_text@lists.xmission.com</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3Dwhite> <DIV> </DIV> <TD colSpan=3D2><IMG height=3D1=20 src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=3D1 = border=3D0=20 NOSEND=3D"1"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><TD vAlign=3D"top" bgColor=3D"#eeeeee"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <FORM name=3DfrmAddAddrs=20 = action=3Dhttp://address.mail.yahoo.com/yab/us?v=3DYM&cmode=3D1&L= ang=3Dus=20 method=3Dpost> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></FORM></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">Now = I've got to cross wires with both of you great men: Ned Eddins and = </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">J.W. Stephens. In that </FONT><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">Ned has got it right for the most part. And = J.W.'s </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">reference is correct. </FONT><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">The overall problem however is the = ethnocentricism </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">of = the author; a </FONT><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">white = man. Frequently other cultures have throughout history = </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">defended </FONT><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and = veiwed</FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE align=3D"Left"><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">lesser culture.</FONT></PRE></DIV><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV></FONT> MOUNTAIN MATING <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first = they fight and then=20 <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>they <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as = mood and circumstance <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex = was probably one of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>the primary lures of the mountains for the = whites, and the squaws seem <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to have relished it with the trapper, in or out = of marriage, avidly <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies. <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The = were property and <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>treated as such. They were saddled with all the = domestic work, because=20 <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. = They were made beasts of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>burden and traded like horses. Like many = "primitive" peoples, Indians <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>made women the objects of distrust, hostility, = and taboos. Their lives <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>were so miserable that some Sioux women, for = instance, would kill <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they = hanged themselves to <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>escape the degradation of femininity. So the = women certainly could <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>expect no worse from the white man than they = could get at home.</PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had = lived in the east. Only when </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">they encountered the horse did they shift to a = patriarchal structure. Where back east the </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">'calf pipe' story was interpreted = to mean since a woman gave and taught the pipe it should = </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">be women = in command. Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a = zoological economy</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was = reinterpreted. Since men now supplied </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">the bulk of the resources, and two = men were the gender visited by the calf pipe woman, the = </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">myth made = a 180 circle. The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy still had a = strong hold. </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">The camp = was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could prevail = without the</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"> other. = </FONT> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians = were utterly <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, = shame, or secretiveness about it. <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>With rare exceptions, they had no concept of = chastity, in the sense of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and = boys alike were expected <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to take their pleasure where they could find it. = (Adultery was a <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely = in front of children <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>or anyone else. One prominent chief was often = seen walking about his <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>village naked, displaying an = erection.</PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">The Crow = were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and = </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">mountain = nations. But most of the plains tribe's husbands would and could cut = a woman's </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">throat or nose for adultery. Little girls wore rawhide = girdles and heard </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would = sneak in to </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">copulate with the young girls. And as Ned said, the Sun Dance = pole could </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">only be cut by a virgin. Thus most of the adulterous affairs = and pre-marital</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a = low village </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">reputation. </FONT></PRE><PRE> Public ceremonies in which men <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>and women copulated with anyone other than their = own husbands or wives <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>were common among the plains tribes. And the = American Indian was <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>completely innocent of the notion that something = he enjoyed sexually <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an = incomprehensible concept=20 <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>them in that context.</PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">J. W., I have to disagree as many = authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">talk of </FONT><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">a man caught in adultery and his = punishment. The double standard </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">evidently existed in plains culture just like in = our society's past, </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">as the man's punishment was less severe. A husband could = demand </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing. If = he</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"> = protested he could be killed by the angry husband and it seen as = noboby's </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">business. Contrasted </FONT><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">to the wife, whom lost her life or nose.=20 </FONT></PRE><PRE>They were just as uninhibited in other matters where = white culture invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed=20 enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings = have=20 this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the=20 "medicine" of the other party.> <FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">As I understand, the berdash, were = for the most part a cast among </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">the Osage. Of males whom did not have the = genetic qualities to pass </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">into the population. Rather than practice = infanticide they allowed </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to = marry nor breed. Yet as </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">you have pointed out, homosexual males were seen = as possessing spirit </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">qualities. Probably, since they were in touch = with both the male and </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">female traits of their being. And the sodomy you = mentioned, most likely</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">happened with prisoners and the dead. In "Hantha = Yo"(not sure of spelling) the author </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">mentions this form of torture. = Why else at the Big Horn did so many </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">officers shoot each other when = they knew their fate if captured</FONT>?</PRE> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=3Dall> <HR> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <A=20 = href=3D"http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_etl_EN.asp">http://explorer.msn.com<= /A>.<BR>----------------------=20 hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></= HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1A908.696BA7A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty Date: 29 Jan 2002 13:40:20 -0800 Dr. Raven wrote: > > Now I've got to cross wires with both of you great men: Ned Eddins and > > J.W. Stephens. In that Ned has got it right for the most part. And J.W.'s > > reference is correct. The overall problem however is the ethnocentricism > > of the author; a white man. I have to disagree that ethnocentrism is the problem. Everyone is ethnocentric by nature, however it need not be a problem. One simply recognizes one's ethnocentricities and compensates for them. I don't want to defend Blevins, but I think that the overall problem is painting a picture with too broad of a brush. Indian practices were very diverse. > Frequently other cultures have throughout history > > defended their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and veiwed > > lesser culture. Um, I think that you should substitute "Usually" for "Frequently" above. You should remember that context of "Give your Heart to the Hawks" was RMFT. Blevins is speaking of a snapshot of the western plains and mountain tribes 1820s-40s. > As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in the east. Only when > > they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal structure. Where back east the > > 'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a woman gave and taught the pipe it should > > be women in command. Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a zoological economy > > with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted. Since men now supplied > > the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited by the calf pipe woman, the > > myth made a 180 circle. The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy still had a strong hold. > > The camp was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could prevail without the > > other. See my comments above. I do not disagree with what you present, just that the context of extract that I presented was pretty limited to a certain time and place. > The Crow were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and > > mountain nations. But most of the plains tribe's husbands would and could cut a woman's > > throat or nose for adultery. Little girls wore rawhide girdles and heard > > stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would sneak in to > > copulate with the young girls. And as Ned said, the Sun Dance pole could > > only be cut by a virgin. Thus most of the adulterous affairs and pre-marital > > unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low village > > reputation. Okay. A report from the Corps of Exploration noted that one-in-five Blackfoot women lacked a nose. Again, I am recalling this from memory as the books that I would need to back this up are not at hand. > (Blevins): Public ceremonies in which men > and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives > were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was > completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually > might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept > to > them in that context. > > J. W., I have to disagree as many authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, > > talk of a man caught in adultery and his punishment. The double standard > > evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's past, > > as the man's punishment was less severe. A husband could demand > > everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing. If he > > protested he could be killed by the angry husband and it seen as noboby's > > business. Contrasted to the wife, whom lost her life or nose. You are confusing marriage with copulation. In both societies there were extra-marital relationships that were sanctioned. Look at the Buffalo Dance for example. At the end the young women would choose an old man. These relationships were not considered adulterous. Agreed that the tribes that I have read about all had the concept of marriage (Louis Boyd's newspaper column today noted that there are NO societies that don't have marriage) and thus adultery, what you and I think of as adulterous was not often the same as tribal mores. > (Blevins again): They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture > invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every > tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions > given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal > was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed > enemy, usually as a final humiliation. > > As I understand, the berdash, were for the most part a cast among > > the Osage. Of males whom did not have the genetic qualities to pass > > into the population. Rather than practice infanticide they allowed > > a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed. Yet as > > you have pointed out, homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit > > qualities. Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and > > female traits of their being. And the sodomy you mentioned, most likely > > happened with prisoners and the dead. In "Hantha Yo"(not sure of spelling) the author > > mentions this form of torture. Why else at the Big Horn did so many > > officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if captured? (Actually, it wasn't I who mentioned sodomy. I was quoting Blevins.) B'st'rd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Help my computer is on crack! Date: 29 Jan 2002 13:42:53 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_341_336d_3682 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Gentleman, Please excuse today's post, I have been having computer problems and e-mail episodes. I'm sure it is just like those long guns you guys carry; sometimes they get a wild hare??? _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_341_336d_3682 Content-Type: message/rfc822 From owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:04:09 -0800 Received: from [198.60.22.7] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBE204AFC000A40043190C63C1607F6EB0; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:03:19 -0800 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16VeSs-00074e-00 for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:02:46 -0700 Received: from [216.33.149.5] (helo=hotmail.com) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16VeSq-00074V-00 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:02:44 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:02:41 -0800 Received: from 134.197.62.8 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:02:41 GMT X-Originating-IP: [134.197.62.8] Bcc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: <F5eYOS2CC6UiAuj3keE0001c2f1@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jan 2002 20:02:41.0742 (UTC) FILETIME=[E8B57EE0:01C1A8FF] Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P> </P></DIV> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TBODY> <DIV> </DIV> <TR vAlign=top> <DIV> </DIV> <TR bgColor=#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right><B>Date:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width="100%">Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=white> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=2><IMG height=1 src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=1 border=0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right><B>From:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width="100%">"JW Stephens" <lray@mindspring.com> | <B><A href="http://us.f114.mail.yahoo.com/ym/BlockSender?NBR=1&NE=lray@mindspring.com&box=Inbox&MsgId=5914_689771_61633_1600_5219_0_5849&inc=&num=&Search=&YY=59616&order=down&sort=date&pos=0">Block Address </A></B> | <B><A href="javascript:document.frmAddAddrs.submit()">Add to Address Book</A></B></FONT></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=white> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=2><IMG height=1 src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=1 border=0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right><B>To:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width="100%">hist_text@lists.xmission.com</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=white> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=2><IMG height=1 src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=1 border=0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right><B>Subject:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width="100%">Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=white> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=2><IMG height=1 src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=1 border=0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right><B>Reply-to:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width="100%">hist_text@lists.xmission.com</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=white> <DIV> </DIV> <TD colSpan=2><IMG height=1 src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=1 border=0></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><TD bgColor="#eeeeee" vAlign="top"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <FORM name=frmAddAddrs action=http://address.mail.yahoo.com/yab/us?v=YM&cmode=1&Lang=us method=post> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></FORM></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">Now I've got to cross wires with both of you great men: Ned Eddins and </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">J.W. Stephens. In that </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">Ned has got it right for the most part. And J.W.'s </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">reference is correct. </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">The overall problem however is the ethnocentricism </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">of the author; a </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">white man. Frequently other cultures have throughout history </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">defended </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and veiwed</FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=left><PRE align="Left"><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">lesser culture.</FONT></PRE></DIV><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV></FONT> MOUNTAIN MATING <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first they fight and then <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>they <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as mood and circumstance <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex was probably one of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, and the squaws seem <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of marriage, avidly <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies. <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The were property and <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>treated as such. They were saddled with all the domestic work, because <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. They were made beasts of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>burden and traded like horses. Like many "primitive" peoples, Indians <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and taboos. Their lives <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>were so miserable that some Sioux women, for instance, would kill <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they hanged themselves to <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>escape the degradation of femininity. So the women certainly could <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>expect no worse from the white man than they could get at home.</PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in the east. Only when </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal structure. Where back east the </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a woman gave and taught the pipe it should </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">be women in command. Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a zoological economy</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted. Since men now supplied </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited by the calf pipe woman, the </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">myth made a 180 circle. The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy still had a strong hold. </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">The camp was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could prevail without the</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> other. </FONT> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians were utterly <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, shame, or secretiveness about it. <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>With rare exceptions, they had no concept of chastity, in the sense of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys alike were expected <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to take their pleasure where they could find it. (Adultery was a <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely in front of children <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen walking about his <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>village naked, displaying an erection.</PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">The Crow were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">mountain nations. But most of the plains tribe's husbands would and could cut a woman's </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">throat or nose for adultery. Little girls wore rawhide girdles and heard </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would sneak in to </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">copulate with the young girls. And as Ned said, the Sun Dance pole could </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">only be cut by a virgin. Thus most of the adulterous affairs and pre-marital</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low village </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">reputation. </FONT></PRE><PRE> Public ceremonies in which men <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>them in that context.</PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">J. W., I have to disagree as many authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">talk of </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">a man caught in adultery and his punishment. The double standard </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's past, </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">as the man's punishment was less severe. A husband could demand </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing. If he</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"> protested he could be killed by the angry husband and it seen as noboby's </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">business. Contrasted </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">to the wife, whom lost her life or nose. </FONT></PRE><PRE>They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings have this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the "medicine" of the other party.> <FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">As I understand, the berdash, were for the most part a cast among </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">the Osage. Of males whom did not have the genetic qualities to pass </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">into the population. Rather than practice infanticide they allowed </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed. Yet as </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">you have pointed out, homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">qualities. Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">female traits of their being. And the sodomy you mentioned, most likely</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">happened with prisoners and the dead. In "Hantha Yo"(not sure of spelling) the author </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">mentions this form of torture. Why else at the Big Horn did so many </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if captured</FONT>?</PRE> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_etl_EN.asp'>http://explorer.msn.com</a>.<br></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_341_336d_3682-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! Date: 29 Jan 2002 14:57:14 -0700 B'st'rd Some of your reply didn't come through, so I couldn't follow it. Another one to your L&C example (especially York) is young warriors giving their wives to old men of the tribe hoping to share in their success in battle. My objection to some books written by people involved in the early Fur Trade period is that you get the impression that all Indian men and women acted and behaved the same...the worst stories involve the Arikara, but whatever the story, it cannot be applied to all Indians. In terms of high sexual standards, it hard to beat virgins and chaste married women. If the Crow and other tribes were as bad as some say, where did these virgins and chaste women come from???? There is no doubt that all tribes did things with each other and animals (Larocque) that by our standard were repulsive. In order to get an overall picture on this, you have to read what ethnologists that spent years living with the different tribes in the early 1900's wrote. I will be glad to give reference to some the best of these books on the different Plains Indians offline. There are two references that I would really appreciate: (1)The one on the chief walking around the village...this could be a medical break through---the first documented evidence of Viagra. (2) that the matriarchal tribes changed to patriotically after acquiring horses and moving onto the Plains. Ned ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! Date: 29 Jan 2002 14:14:39 -0800 Ned Eddins wrote: > > B'st'rd > Some of your reply didn't come through, so I couldn't follow it. I think that it may have been "SUE RAVEN"'s reply that didn't come through. I had the same problem reading it because it was stylized text (multi-part MIME). My postings are always in plain text. > Another > one to your L&C example (especially York) is young warriors giving their > wives to old men of the tribe hoping to share in their success in battle. My > objection to some books written by people involved in the early Fur Trade > period is that you get the impression that all Indian men and women acted > and behaved the same...the worst stories involve the Arikara, but whatever > the story, it cannot be applied to all Indians. Agreed. I pointed this out as a problem with the snippet that I quoted from Blevins. > In terms of high sexual standards, it hard to beat virgins and chaste > married women. If the Crow and other tribes were as bad as some say, where > did these virgins and chaste women come from???? "Bad" women all start out as virgins and chaste. The problems come when they are chased and are not fast enough. > There is no doubt that all > tribes did things with each other and animals (Larocque) that by our > standard were repulsive. In order to get an overall picture on this, you > have to read what ethnologists that spent years living with the different > tribes in the early 1900's wrote. I will be glad to give reference to some > the best of these books on the different Plains Indians offline. I would like that, even though they don't reflect the period of my interest. > There are two references that I would really appreciate: > (1)The one on the chief walking around the village...this could be a > medical break through---the first documented evidence of Viagra. That was Blevins: "Give your Heart to Hawks." > (2) that the matriarchal tribes changed to patriotically after acquiring > horses and moving onto the Plains. That was "SUE RAVEN" not me. B'st'rd BTW, I really enjoyed your sheep pictures, Ned. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty Date: 29 Jan 2002 15:15:16 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1A8D7.C1F553C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sue; please change your e-mail settings to "plain text", so we hairless apes = can read it easier. =20 thanks; Tom ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SUE RAVEN=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 1:02 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty =20 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800=20 =20 From: "JW Stephens" <lray@mindspring.com> | Block Address | Add = to Address Book=20 =20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 =20 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!=20 =20 Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 =20 Now I've got to cross wires with both of you great men: Ned Eddins and=20 J.W. Stephens. In that Ned has got it right for the most part. And = J.W.'s=20 reference is correct. The overall problem however is the = ethnocentricism=20 of the author; a white man. Frequently other cultures have throughout = history=20 defended their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and veiwed lesser culture. MOUNTAIN MATING When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first they fight and then=20 they fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as mood and circumstance might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex was probably one of the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, and the squaws seem to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of marriage, avidly enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies. The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The were property and treated as such. They were saddled with all the domestic work, because=20 a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. They were made beasts = of burden and traded like horses. Like many "primitive" peoples, Indians made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and taboos. Their lives were so miserable that some Sioux women, for instance, would kill newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they hanged themselves to escape the degradation of femininity. So the women certainly could expect no worse from the white man than they could get at home. As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in = the east. Only when=20 they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal structure. = Where back east the=20 'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a woman gave and taught = the pipe it should=20 be women in command. Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a = zoological economy with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted. = Since men now supplied=20 the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited by the = calf pipe woman, the=20 myth made a 180 circle. The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy = still had a strong hold. =20 The camp was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could = prevail without the other.=20 Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians were utterly uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, shame, or = secretiveness about it. With rare exceptions, they had no concept of chastity, in the sense of abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys alike were expected to take their pleasure where they could find it. (Adultery was a somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely in front of children or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen walking about his village naked, displaying an erection. The Crow were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and=20 mountain nations. But most of the plains tribe's husbands would and = could cut a woman's=20 throat or nose for adultery. Little girls wore rawhide girdles and = heard=20 stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would sneak in to=20 copulate with the young girls. And as Ned said, the Sun Dance pole = could=20 only be cut by a virgin. Thus most of the adulterous affairs and = pre-marital unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low village=20 reputation. =20 Public ceremonies in which men and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept=20 to them in that context. J. W., I have to disagree as many authors of Blackfeet culture and = Sioux,=20 talk of a man caught in adultery and his punishment. The double = standard=20 evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's past,=20 as the man's punishment was less severe. A husband could demand=20 everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing. If he protested he could be killed by the angry husband and it seen as = noboby's=20 business. Contrasted to the wife, whom lost her life or nose.=20 They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed=20 enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings = have=20 this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the=20 "medicine" of the other party.> As I understand, the berdash, were for the most part a cast among=20 the Osage. Of males whom did not have the genetic qualities to pass=20 into the population. Rather than practice infanticide they allowed=20 a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed. Yet as=20 you have pointed out, homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit=20 qualities. Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and=20 female traits of their being. And the sodomy you mentioned, most likely happened with prisoners and the dead. In "Hantha Yo"(not sure of = spelling) the author=20 mentions this form of torture. Why else at the Big Horn did so many=20 officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if captured? ----- Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1A8D7.C1F553C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sue;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>please change your e-mail settings to = "plain text",=20 so we hairless apes can read it easier. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>thanks; Tom</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Dblond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com=20 href=3D"mailto:blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com">SUE RAVEN</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 29, 2002 = 1:02=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: = Ethnocentric bias=20 and tribal sexualty</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <P> </P></DIV> <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" border=3D0> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TBODY> <DIV> </DIV> <TR vAlign=3Dtop> <DIV> </DIV> <TR bgColor=3D#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright><B>Date:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width=3D"100%">Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3Dwhite> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=3D2><IMG height=3D1=20 src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=3D1=20 border=3D0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3D#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright><B>From:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width=3D"100%">"JW Stephens" <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:lray@mindspring.com">lray@mindspring.com</A>> |&nb= sp;<B><A=20 = href=3D"http://us.f114.mail.yahoo.com/ym/BlockSender?NBR=3D1&NE=3Dlra= y@mindspring.com&box=3DInbox&MsgId=3D5914_689771_61633_1600_5219_= 0_5849&inc=3D&num=3D&Search=3D&YY=3D59616&order=3Ddow= n&sort=3Ddate&pos=3D0">Block=20 Address </A></B> | <B><A=20 href=3D"javascript:document.frmAddAddrs.submit()">Add to Address = Book</A></B></FONT></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3Dwhite> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=3D2><IMG height=3D1=20 src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=3D1=20 border=3D0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3D#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright><B>To:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width=3D"100%"><A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3Dwhite> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=3D2><IMG height=3D1=20 src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=3D1=20 border=3D0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3D#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright><B>Subject:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width=3D"100%">Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more,=20 more!</TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3Dwhite> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD colSpan=3D2><IMG height=3D1=20 src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=3D1=20 border=3D0></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3D#eeeeee> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap align=3Dright><B>Reply-to:</B></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TD width=3D"100%"><A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A></TD></TR> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TR bgColor=3Dwhite> <DIV> </DIV> <TD colSpan=3D2><IMG height=3D1=20 src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/space.gif" width=3D1=20 border=3D0></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><TD vAlign=3D"top" bgColor=3D"#eeeeee"> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <FORM name=3DfrmAddAddrs=20 = action=3Dhttp://address.mail.yahoo.com/yab/us?v=3DYM&cmode=3D1&La= ng=3Dus=20 method=3Dpost> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></FORM></TD> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">Now = I've got to cross wires with both of you great men: Ned Eddins and = </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">J.W. = Stephens. In that </FONT><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">Ned = has got it right for the most part. And J.W.'s </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">reference is correct. </FONT><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">The overall problem however is the ethnocentricism = </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">of = the author; a </FONT><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">white = man. Frequently other cultures have throughout history = </FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">defended </FONT><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and = veiwed</FONT></PRE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft><PRE align=3D"Left"><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">lesser culture.</FONT></PRE></DIV><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV></FONT> MOUNTAIN MATING <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first = they fight and then=20 <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>they <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as = mood and circumstance <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex = was probably one of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, = and the squaws seem <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of = marriage, avidly <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies. <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The = were property and <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>treated as such. They were saddled with all the = domestic work, because=20 <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. = They were made beasts of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>burden and traded like horses. Like many = "primitive" peoples, Indians <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and = taboos. Their lives <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>were so miserable that some Sioux women, for = instance, would kill <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they = hanged themselves to <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>escape the degradation of femininity. So the women = certainly could <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>expect no worse from the white man than they could = get at home.</PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">As the = plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in the = east. Only when </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal = structure. Where back east the </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a = woman gave and taught the pipe it should </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">be women in command. Upon the = shift from an agricultural economy to a zoological = economy</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">with = the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted. Since = men now supplied </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited = by the calf pipe woman, the </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">myth made a 180 circle. The males then ruled, yet = partial matriarchy still had a strong hold. </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Comic Sans MS">The camp was a woman's, while the men had the = earth; and neither could prevail without the</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Comic Sans MS"> other. </FONT> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians = were utterly <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, = shame, or secretiveness about it. <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>With rare exceptions, they had no concept of = chastity, in the sense of <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys = alike were expected <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to take their pleasure where they could find it. = (Adultery was a <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely = in front of children <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen = walking about his <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>village naked, displaying an = erection.</PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">The Crow = were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and = </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">mountain = nations. But most of the plains tribe's husbands would and could cut a = woman's </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">throat or nose for adultery. Little girls wore rawhide girdles = and heard </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would = sneak in to </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">copulate with the young girls. And as Ned said, the Sun Dance = pole could </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">only be cut by a virgin. Thus most of the adulterous affairs = and pre-marital</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low = village </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">reputation. </FONT></PRE><PRE> Public ceremonies in which men <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>and women copulated with anyone other than their = own husbands or wives <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>were common among the plains tribes. And the = American Indian was <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>completely innocent of the notion that something = he enjoyed sexually <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an = incomprehensible concept=20 <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>them in that context.</PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">J. W., I have to disagree as many = authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">talk of </FONT><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">a man caught in adultery and his punishment. The = double standard </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's = past, </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">as = the man's punishment was less severe. A husband could demand = </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">everything = the man owned even his clothes he was wearing. If = he</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"> = protested he could be killed by the angry husband and it seen as = noboby's </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">business. Contrasted </FONT><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">to the wife, whom lost her life or nose.=20 </FONT></PRE><PRE>They were just as uninhibited in other matters where = white culture invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed=20 enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings = have=20 this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the=20 "medicine" of the other party.> <FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT = face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">As I understand, the berdash, were = for the most part a cast among </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">the Osage. Of males whom did not have the genetic = qualities to pass </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">into the population. Rather than practice infanticide they = allowed </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">a = class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed. Yet as = </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">you have = pointed out, homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit = </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">qualities. = Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and = </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">female = traits of their being. And the sodomy you mentioned, most = likely</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">happened with prisoners and the dead. In "Hantha Yo"(not sure = of spelling) the author </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida = Handwriting, Cursive">mentions this form of torture. Why else at the = Big Horn did so many </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting, = Cursive">officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if = captured</FONT>?</PRE> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=3Dall> <HR> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <A=20 = href=3D"http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_etl_EN.asp">http://explorer.msn.com</= A>.<BR>----------------------=20 hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></H= TML> ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1A8D7.C1F553C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 29 Jan 2002 16:34:48 -0700 The one I was referring to from the Museum of the Fur trade, was made from straight lodge pole pine, split in half the full 6' length making a flat surface on the bottom, with 4 cross pieces to hold the long poles together. A piece of elk rawhide was fastened on the front edge and rolled back in a "C" shape to the main body. the pull rope and guide ropes attach to the cross pieces. Simple to make and if loaded low as possible and taking only what one would carry on his back, it works very nicely. But like you have stated we have one brother that if not watched will try and load the kitchen sink every. Buck. -------------------- > Buck, > > The toboggans I was referring to were as long or close to what your talking, > but not as wide and were being handled by one guy. Too much room to pile > stuff on that you probably could live without. At least that was the result. > I'm sure that two or three guys could handle a 6 footer by 2 just fine. > Magpie and most of us are talking about a personal snow craft. > > I'm not familiar with the one your talking about but it sounds some what > different than the usual steamed slat models that we normally come across > for sale or trade (the classic "kids down the slope kind). > > Capt. Lahti' > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans > > > > I'll have to disagree with Capt. we have used toboggans copied from one > that > > Charley Hanson had at the museum years ago, and it's 6' long and 2' wide > > with a pull rope on the front and a guide rope on the back. Even went as > > far as to put the rawhide turned up nose on ours like the original and > > painted the whole thing "French Blue". I use beeswax on the bottom of the > > split lodge pole pine to really make it glide, works great in the buck > brush > > and will handle two to three men's camp worth of equipage, sure saves the > > back here in the Colorado mountains. > > > > Buck. > > > > > > > Klahowya Magpie, > > > > > > If your set on a toboggan go short and wide. I've watched a number of > guys > > > fight them through soft snow, they tend to tip over if loaded too high. > > They > > > also have more resistance on the snow surface but it's still better than > > > carrying. > > > > > > Don't know if you ever saw that "dog sled" I made. It's from the Ben > Hunt > > > book and not all that hard to lash up if you have some elm or etc. to > bend > > > into a few shapes and some rawhide to lash it up with. Sure pulls nice > > > compared to a toboggan. And you make a solid trail for it with your snow > > > shoe track so it don't fall over in soft snow. If your interested I'll > > send > > > you a scan of the instruction page. > > > > > > But right off I don't know of anyone who has either for sale or trade. > > > > > > YMOS > > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 29 Jan 2002 17:16:44 -0800 My experience with a rig like this was that it worked well on flats, but when you get to hills you need to go straight up them. It does not work worth a hoot on side hills. It becomes monumental work when fresh snow falls and piles up. But then, just wandering off to take a pee qualifies as monumental when you are postholing piled up powder. I don't recall reading about one of these in use ... anybody? (My collection of MoftheFTQ doesn't go back as far as Buck's does. In fact, nothing I have does ... ;-) (Saucy) B'st'rd BARRY CONNER wrote: > > The one I was referring to from the Museum of the Fur trade, was made from > straight lodge pole pine, split in half the full 6' length making a flat > surface on the bottom, with 4 cross pieces to hold the long poles together. > A piece of elk rawhide was fastened on the front edge and rolled back in a > "C" shape to the main body. the pull rope and guide ropes attach to the > cross pieces. Simple to make and if loaded low as possible and taking only > what one would carry on his back, it works very nicely. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! Date: 29 Jan 2002 17:53:44 -0800 Ned, I'm having terrible computer problems today at the school. So you'll have to bear with me. As far as the reference to back east. I've read this in many sources; but right now the Department of Interior is the only one I can think of. If you phone the Sioux Museum{ask to speak to Melvin Minor/director} in Rapid City, S. D.; they can verify this and further you with the details. The map on the wall by the Dept. of Interior testifies of a time around the colonial period when the Sioux lived on the Atlantic coast. Further investigation will show the drought on the plains(about 2000 years ago) pushed most tribes/nations out into other areas. The Blackfeet are Algonquin in dialect unlike most of the plain's cultures. For a quick reference you can check the WORLD BOOK ENCYCLIPEDIA on the linquistical families, under Indians. Even the Crow(Abasorka) are in the Siouan group that the Teton Sioux or Lakota are from. Just like Christiandom-type Churches, the plains nations have each a different twist to their respective Sun Dances. With each claiming the other wrong in the performance of the ritual. I do realize you meant patriarchal and not patriotarchal, whatever, in your last post. Hope this helps, Sue Raven _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 30 Jan 2002 00:07:50 EST --part1_9d.224abcc6.2988d9a6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (Saucy) B'st'rd said: > My experience with a rig like this was that it worked well on flats, but > when you get to hills you need to go straight up them. It does not work > worth a hoot on side hills. It becomes monumental work when fresh snow > falls and piles up. But then, just wandering off to take a pee qualifies > as monumental when you are postholing piled up powder. > > I don't recall reading about one of these in use ... anybody? > > B'st'rd Sounds to me ya needed to spend a little more time with the toboggan and figure out how to use it. First off ya shouldn't be postholing any where. That's what Snow Shoes are for. To go side hill ya need to make a trail by stomping a flat trail ahead of ya, up and back making the trail double snow shoe wide. Then pull your toboggan on it with no trouble. Ya do the same if you want to go up hill on an angle. I find when going up hill pulling a toboggan on snow shoes it helps to use a walking stick to plant so you do not slid back. When going down hill it helps to have help so you can use a drag line on the back. You can also let the toboggan slide up on the tells of your shoes and shuffle down the hill works well. Buck I will have to disagree with ya if a toboggan is made and loaded right it can haul as much as a horse. With two men handling it Yaro hauled out an elk hole on his once. I have hauled a hundred or more pounds on mine and that's more then I want to pack on my back any distance. As for reading about these being used read Forty Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri Larpenteur talks a bout using slides to haul goods on. I think it was Sublette, correct me if I'm wrong that came in to a camp of trappers that were strandes in the Snake River country in the dead of winter with supplies brought in on a sled pulled by dogs. The Bush Toboggan and snow shoes. were used by Indians tribes back east around the Great Lakes to Canada and even used by some of the western tribes. To hall loads in the snow long before the trappers came. That's the way my toboggan pulls. Crazy Cyot --part1_9d.224abcc6.2988d9a6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2><B> <BR></B>(Saucy) B'st'rd said:<B> <BR></B> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">My experience with a rig like this was that it worked well on flats, but <BR>when you get to hills you need to go straight up them. It does not work <BR>worth a hoot on side hills. It becomes monumental work when fresh snow <BR>falls and piles up. But then, just wandering off to take a pee qualifies <BR>as monumental when you are postholing piled up powder. <BR> <BR>I don't recall reading about one of these in use ... anybody? <BR> <BR> B'st'rd</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Sounds to me ya needed to spend a little more time with the toboggan and figure out how to use it. <BR>First off ya shouldn't be postholing any where. That's what Snow Shoes are for. <BR>To go side hill ya need to make a trail by stomping a flat trail ahead of ya, up and back making the trail double snow shoe wide. Then pull your toboggan on it with no trouble. Ya do the same if you want to go up hill on an angle. I find when going up hill pulling a toboggan on snow shoes it helps to use a walking stick to plant so you do not slid back. When going down hill it helps to have help so you can use a drag line on the back. You can also let the toboggan slide up on the tells of your shoes and shuffle down the hill works well. <BR>Buck I will have to disagree with ya if a toboggan is made and loaded right it can haul as much as a horse. With two men handling it Yaro hauled out an elk hole on his once. I have hauled a hundred or more pounds on mine and that's more then I want to pack on my back any distance. <BR>As for reading about these being used read Forty Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri Larpenteur talks a bout using slides to haul goods on. <BR>I think it was Sublette, correct me if I'm wrong that came in to a camp of trappers that were strandes in the Snake River country in the dead of winter with supplies brought in on a sled pulled by dogs. The Bush Toboggan and snow shoes. were used by Indians tribes back east around the Great Lakes to Canada and even used by some of the western tribes. To hall loads in the snow long before the trappers came. <BR>That's the way my toboggan pulls. <BR>Crazy Cyot </FONT></HTML> --part1_9d.224abcc6.2988d9a6_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 29 Jan 2002 21:38:48 -0800 Sounds like the basics of making it out of what you have. I watched a program one time showing a couple Eskimo hunters making a sled mid winter. I'm not sure what they started out with for a frame, though it could have been something as simple as tightly rolled hides (two for each runner) that were turned up at the ends as would be expected. Might have been one hide rolled along two opposing edges and turned up with the rolled edges on the bottom. They then covered the bottoms of each runner with spit wetted moss etc. to build up a tough slick edge to run on the ice and snow. I thought it a pretty neat trick at the time. It hardly gets cold enough around here to do the same but a fresh killed elk hide in well below freezing weather could be quickly turned into a "sled" in this manner. I also understand that in the east in the previous century a "sled" was made of a flat piece of wood of modest length and width that was hollowed out a bit and curved on the bottom to serve as a shallow but serviceable sled. It might or might not dig into the snow so much as to be not worth the trouble but then again it might have worked just fine if loaded and managed properly. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:34 PM > The one I was referring to from the Museum of the Fur trade, was made from > straight lodge pole pine, split in half the full 6' length making a flat > surface on the bottom, with 4 cross pieces to hold the long poles together. > A piece of elk rawhide was fastened on the front edge and rolled back in a > "C" shape to the main body. the pull rope and guide ropes attach to the > cross pieces. Simple to make and if loaded low as possible and taking only > what one would carry on his back, it works very nicely. > > But like you have stated we have one brother that if not watched will try > and load the kitchen sink every. > > Buck. > -------------------- > > > Buck, > > > > The toboggans I was referring to were as long or close to what your > talking, > > but not as wide and were being handled by one guy. Too much room to pile > > stuff on that you probably could live without. At least that was the > result. > > I'm sure that two or three guys could handle a 6 footer by 2 just fine. > > Magpie and most of us are talking about a personal snow craft. > > > > I'm not familiar with the one your talking about but it sounds some what > > different than the usual steamed slat models that we normally come across > > for sale or trade (the classic "kids down the slope kind). > > > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> > > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 4:28 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans > > > > > > > I'll have to disagree with Capt. we have used toboggans copied from one > > that > > > Charley Hanson had at the museum years ago, and it's 6' long and 2' wide > > > with a pull rope on the front and a guide rope on the back. Even went > as > > > far as to put the rawhide turned up nose on ours like the original and > > > painted the whole thing "French Blue". I use beeswax on the bottom of > the > > > split lodge pole pine to really make it glide, works great in the buck > > brush > > > and will handle two to three men's camp worth of equipage, sure saves > the > > > back here in the Colorado mountains. > > > > > > Buck. > > > > > > > > > > Klahowya Magpie, > > > > > > > > If your set on a toboggan go short and wide. I've watched a number of > > guys > > > > fight them through soft snow, they tend to tip over if loaded too > high. > > > They > > > > also have more resistance on the snow surface but it's still better > than > > > > carrying. > > > > > > > > Don't know if you ever saw that "dog sled" I made. It's from the Ben > > Hunt > > > > book and not all that hard to lash up if you have some elm or etc. to > > bend > > > > into a few shapes and some rawhide to lash it up with. Sure pulls nice > > > > compared to a toboggan. And you make a solid trail for it with your > snow > > > > shoe track so it don't fall over in soft snow. If your interested I'll > > > send > > > > you a scan of the instruction page. > > > > > > > > But right off I don't know of anyone who has either for sale or trade. > > > > > > > > YMOS > > > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 30 Jan 2002 01:18:02 EST --part1_143.8a44445.2988ea1a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Capt. Lahti' The first toboggan I made was with that kind of thought. Made it out of what was at hand, I tied a frame together out of willows. The frame was about six feet long and two feet wide that was my mistake it was to wide. I covered the frame with two elk hides next mistake I left the hair on even with the hair laying in the right direction it made it harder to pull. The only thing it was good for was to set on once ya got it in to camp. It sure wasn't any good to haul stuff on. A toboggan has to be narrower the trail your snow shoes make as a rule no more then 15" wide 12'' to 14" is better. Bob Stromger had one he made at one of the winter camps last year made with the same thought in mind. But he made is right it was 15" wide and 4' long covered with raw hide with the hair off and it worked real well. See ya in the snow Crazy Cyot --part1_143.8a44445.2988ea1a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Capt. Lahti' <BR>The first toboggan I made was with that kind of thought. Made it out of what was at hand, I tied a frame together out of willows. The frame was about six feet long and two feet wide that was my mistake it was to wide. I covered the frame with two elk hides next mistake I left the hair on even with the hair laying in the right direction it made it harder to pull. The only thing it was good for was to set on once ya got it in to camp. It sure wasn't any good to haul stuff on. <BR>A toboggan has to be narrower the trail your snow shoes make as a rule no more then 15" wide 12'' to 14" is better. <BR>Bob Stromger had one he made at one of the winter camps last year made with the same thought in mind. But he made is right it was 15" wide and 4' long covered with raw hide with the hair off and it worked real well. <BR>See ya in the snow <BR>Crazy Cyot <BR></FONT></HTML> --part1_143.8a44445.2988ea1a_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty Date: 30 Jan 2002 06:45:13 -0700 JW Stephens wrote: > Um, I think that you should substitute "Usually" for "Frequently" above. > > You should remember that context of "Give your Heart to the Hawks" was > RMFT. Blevins is speaking of a snapshot of the western plains and > mountain tribes 1820s-40s. > I agree, too often we lump all the tribes (and companys of white men) into easily made pigeon holes which give a slanted view of the individuals and don't allow for differences even between tirbes, time frames and location. I had a discussion with Rex Norman about this when his book first came out. Good book, but I told him that people will now (with out thinking) that all the men who came out west did look like the one company of men who he wrote and drew about in 1837. When every one and every company looked different, were supplied different and had different agends. Some came west to trade, some to trap beaver and some to go only to rendezvous and back. The various tribes in the west were no different. On the subject of women (and the current topic of looseness), how they acted was different in the different tribes. Blevins' book (which I enjoy to read, but not use too much as reference) gives some pretty wide assumptions and labels them on a wide group.not all tribes were "free and easy" with their wives. Some were very protective of them. And as you go through the fur trade time frame, ideas and events changed how the tribes and people interacted. The whites were more well known, weren't given the special treat ment like L & C men were. History is easily made to fit into what we want it to be, but in real life is a complicated group of events which take time and effort to really understand. I used to say that generalities were the way to go, but now I feel it is alot better to say that at a certain time, in a cetain place certain thigns happened. Which may or may not be the norm. Lets see if I can find some othere ways to show this. January 8th Monday Last night there was a great fandango or dance among the Spaniards- they kept it up till nearly day light from the noise, the women here are very unchaste, all vulgar in their conversations and manners- they think it an honor to ask a white man to sleep with them, one came to my lodgings last night and asked to make here a ôblanco pickaniniaö, which being interpreted, is to get here a white child- and I must say for the first time I was ashamed, and did not gratify her, or comply with her request seeing her so forward I had no propensity to touch her- things about the mission much the same. No news of Mr. S. and I am very impatient, waiting his arrival. Jedediah Smith, p. 236. Here is a journal entry that shows a white men actually turning down sex with a woman. How unusual to us in the fur trade! Didn't all white men drop their pants at the chance? February 3rd, àI almost forgot to mention, that this month, for the first time, I have commenced a new article of trade, which is rabbit skins, I am in hopes they will be worth something below. F. A. Chardon, p. 97. Another piece of history that we forget about- trading of small fur at the forts. Wasn't beaver the only fur taken?? April 8th At the town of Independence Missouri on the 4th of April 1834, I joined an expedition fitted out for the Rocky Mountains and Mouth of the Columbia River, by a company formed in Boston under the name of the Columbia River Fishing and Trading Company. Osborne Russell, p. 1. Here Russell starts out with a company of men. The group is a unfamiliar one that many of never heard of. April 26th We started in a mackinaw boat, which had been made at the fort at the foot of the mountains. This boat was thirty six feet long and eight feet wide. We had seven hundred buffalo robes on board and four hundred buffalo tongues. There were seven of us in company- sailing down the South Fork of the Platte to St. Louis. The water was very shallow and we proceeded with great difficulty, getting on sand bars every few minutes. We were obliged to wade and push the boat alone most of the way for almost three hundred miles, which took us forty-nine days. E. Willard Smith The last one is one I find so funny. For those who are familiar with the South Platte, you can at best timesof the year take a canoe down it with a little trouble. But to see a boat this size made at a fort along it and then try to take any you can all the way down to St.Louis would be so difficult. Yet it was done. History is so much more than easy phases and over used generalites that get wore out and then passed on to another generation of people. And to say that all tribes had certain customs is wrong. mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swassell@arcadiapublishing.com Subject: MtMan-List: submission for list Date: 30 Jan 2002 11:06:41 -0500 Mountain History Enthusiasts: I am an editor with Arcadia Publishing in Chicago. We publish local and regional histories throughout the U.S., and we have just expanded our catalogue to include the Pacific Northwest. I was wondering if you could suggest any local historians, archivists, or organizations that might be interested in working with us on publishing a pictorial history of your area. We are a non-vanity press, so we do not charge authors to publish with us. Any contacts you can recommend would be appreciated, or if you are interested, I will gladly forward you some information about our publishing services, as well as a complimentary title in our Images of America series. Thank you for your time. Sarah Wassell Aquisitions Editor Arcadia Publishing 3047 N. Lincoln Ave, Suite 410 Chicago, IL 60657 swassell@arcadiapublishing.com 773.549.7002 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans Date: 30 Jan 2002 15:58:03 -0700 Thanks JW, And when are you moving back to the area <GG>. Take care, Buck ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:16 PM > My experience with a rig like this was that it worked well on flats, but > when you get to hills you need to go straight up them. It does not work > worth a hoot on side hills. It becomes monumental work when fresh snow > falls and piles up. But then, just wandering off to take a pee qualifies > as monumental when you are postholing piled up powder. > > I don't recall reading about one of these in use ... anybody? > > (My collection of MoftheFTQ doesn't go back as far as Buck's does. In > fact, nothing I have does ... ;-) > > (Saucy) B'st'rd > > BARRY CONNER wrote: > > > > The one I was referring to from the Museum of the Fur trade, was made from > > straight lodge pole pine, split in half the full 6' length making a flat > > surface on the bottom, with 4 cross pieces to hold the long poles together. > > A piece of elk rawhide was fastened on the front edge and rolled back in a > > "C" shape to the main body. the pull rope and guide ropes attach to the > > cross pieces. Simple to make and if loaded low as possible and taking only > > what one would carry on his back, it works very nicely. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Don & Janice Shero" <deshero@pionet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: tribal customs Date: 30 Jan 2002 18:44:00 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1A9BE.15435860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, Reading again where the trappers and all , found many plains tribes = where native women were much cleaner than white wimmen. Just an anecdotal note...retiring after 30 yrs. of teaching, the = wife took a job teaching on an reservation in Neb. =20 The Indian girls will drive 50 mi. to get their nails done each = week..hair done also. It is a poverty pocket, no jobs, no income, etc. Most middle school and = high school kids like to dress fashionable, but these kids are really spit and polish, almost to obsession. They may leave a sorta = rundown house, in a smoking old rustbucket, but they dress fine. Can't remember where I read of old time Indians breaking the ice on = streams every morning to wash their hair, but i believe it. Of course they reapplied buffalo dung as a hair tonic. Don ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1A9BE.15435860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4207.2601" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Hello = all,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Reading again where the trappers = and all ,=20 found many plains tribes where native women were much cleaner = than=20 white wimmen.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Just an anecdotal=20 note...retiring after 30 yrs. of teaching, the wife took a job = teaching on=20 an reservation in Neb. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> The Indian girls will = drive 50 mi. to=20 get their nails done each week..hair done also.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is a poverty pocket, no jobs, = no income,=20 etc. Most middle school and high school kids like to dress=20 fashionable, but these kids</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>are really spit and polish, almost to=20 obsession. They may leave a sorta rundown house, in a = smoking old=20 rustbucket, but they dress fine.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Can't remember where I read of = old time=20 Indians breaking the ice on streams every morning to wash their hair, = but i=20 believe it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Of course they reapplied buffalo = dung as a=20 hair tonic.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Don</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1A9BE.15435860-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Honesty(?) Date: 30 Jan 2002 17:21:41 -0800 <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P><BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif"> Mr. J. W. Stephens his confederates,</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif"><BR>It would be a beautiful world if humanity were as honest as the animals. But unlike your RMFT of the past, the individuals of the present are striving to become what was. And yes, just as you were baiting and deceiving along, only you and a few of the others were doing the same. And the only reason they were mad was because they looked in the mirror and could not see what they believed it to be. Before I, there was one whom intimidated many; now he is accepted because they know he is better than they hope to be.<BR></P></FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif">Sue Raven</FONT></DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag2_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Honesty(?) Date: 30 Jan 2002 20:58:34 EST In a message dated 1/30/2002 5:22:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com writes: << Before I, there was one whom intimidated many; now he is accepted because they know he is better than they hope to be. >> ... sounds to me like our Lists' own Internet Troll is back at work, again. If you want any info on these creatures, check the following link(s), <A HREF="http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm"> http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm</A> and scroll down to the section on Playtime Trolls, and how to deal with them.... other links include: <A HREF="http://www.lisaviolet.com/cathouse/troll.htm"> http://www.lisaviolet.com/cathouse/troll.html</A> The recommendation of all these FAQs is to ignore any postings that are obviously calculated to provoke a response. Barney www.altairiv.demon.co.uk/troll/trollfaq.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: MtMan-List: knife Date: 30 Jan 2002 07:17:58 -0700 I am looking to contact Red Wing in Nebraska ( I think he is still there) about a knife with a carved eagle head on the handle, I have two scouts receiving their Eagle Scout Award next month and want to give them a gift. thanks Joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tribal customs Date: 31 Jan 2002 02:47:17 +0000 Dear friends of the lists, I need to see some documentation on the wearing of buffalo dung in the hair as I have never read of it. I have read and heard of using bear oil as a hair dressing though. Respectfully, Don Secondine in the Ohio Country >From: "Don & Janice Shero" <deshero@pionet.net> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: tribal customs >Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:44:00 -0600 > > Hello all, > > Reading again where the trappers and all , found many plains tribes where >native women were much cleaner than white wimmen. > Just an anecdotal note...retiring after 30 yrs. of teaching, the wife >took a job teaching on an reservation in Neb. > The Indian girls will drive 50 mi. to get their nails done each >week..hair done also. >It is a poverty pocket, no jobs, no income, etc. Most middle school and >high school kids like to dress fashionable, but these kids >are really spit and polish, almost to obsession. They may leave a sorta >rundown house, in a smoking old rustbucket, but they dress fine. > Can't remember where I read of old time Indians breaking the ice on >streams every morning to wash their hair, but i believe it. >Of course they reapplied buffalo dung as a hair tonic. > > Don _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knife Date: 30 Jan 2002 19:49:10 -0700 Joe, Great work with them Scouts...Keep it up! Todd On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 07:17:58 -0700 Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> writes: > I am looking to contact Red Wing in Nebraska ( I think he is still > there) about a knife with a carved eagle head on the handle, I have > > two scouts receiving their Eagle Scout Award next month and want to > > give them a gift. > thanks > Joe > -- > Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com > Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture > 307-455-2440 > New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: CORRECTION-A BIG UNCALLED FOR MISUNDERSTANDING! Date: 30 Jan 2002 20:12:11 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_2a85_2b84_5ca0 Content-Type: text/html <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P>Gentleman,</P> <P> In regard to the abscure post by myself earlier, please disregard. It was a terrible misuderstanding on my part. None of what I had imagined was even remotely happening.</P> <P>"O.k. Give her thirty lashes then cut her down". And she heard them say, "AMEN".</P> <P> <BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag1_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html> ------=_NextPart_000_2a85_2b84_5ca0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 From owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:23:20 -0800 Received: from [198.60.22.7] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBE21E738005540043154C63C16078C2C0; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:22:08 -0800 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16W5v8-0002YE-00 for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:21:46 -0700 Received: from [216.33.149.137] (helo=hotmail.com) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16W5v6-0002Y8-00 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:21:44 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:21:42 -0800 Received: from 134.197.45.2 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 01:21:41 GMT X-Originating-IP: [134.197.45.2] Bcc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: <F137FutJLtosJ3Ih7jt0001e7a1@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2002 01:21:42.0043 (UTC) FILETIME=[A3A166B0:01C1A9F5] Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P><BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif"> Mr. J. W. Stephens his confederates,</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif"><BR>It would be a beautiful world if humanity were as honest as the animals. But unlike your RMFT of the past, the individuals of the present are striving to become what was. And yes, just as you were baiting and deceiving along, only you and a few of the others were doing the same. And the only reason they were mad was because they looked in the mirror and could not see what they believed it to be. Before I, there was one whom intimidated many; now he is accepted because they know he is better than they hope to be.<BR></P></FONT></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif">Sue Raven</FONT></DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag2_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_2a85_2b84_5ca0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: CORRECTION-A BIG UNCALLED FOR MISUNDERSTANDING! Date: 30 Jan 2002 20:12:29 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1e44_2bbf_1c4e Content-Type: text/html <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P><BR><BR></P> <DIV> <DIV></DIV> <P>Gentleman,</P></DIV> <P> In regard to the abscure post by myself earlier, please disregard. It was a terrible misuderstanding on my part. None of what I had imagined was even remotely happening.</P></DIV> <P>"O.k. Give her thirty lashes then cut her down". And she heard them say, "AMEN".</P> <DIV></DIV> <P> <BR><BR></P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag1_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html> ------=_NextPart_000_1e44_2bbf_1c4e Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed ------=_NextPart_000_1e44_2bbf_1c4e-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knife Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:22:06 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A9D4.2B66C1C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joe, Looking through my card file I find Redwing Trading "Tom Hewitt" at P.O. = Box 256 Weeping Water, NE 68463 402-267-4895 YMHOS Mike Powell =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 7:16 PM =20 I am looking to contact Red Wing in Nebraska ( I think he is still there) about a knife with a carved eagle head on the handle, I have two scouts receiving their Eagle Scout Award next month and want to give them a gift. thanks Joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455= -2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A9D4.2B66C1C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Joe,</DIV> <DI= V>Looking through my card file I find Redwing Trading "Tom Hewitt" at P.O= . Box 256</DIV> <DIV>Weeping Water, NE 68463 402-267-4895</DI= V> <DIV>YMHOS</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCK= QUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; B= ORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10= pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e= 4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Joe Brandl</DIV> <DIV= style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 30, 2002 7:16= PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmis= sion.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List= : knife</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>I am looking to contact Red Wing in Nebras= ka ( I think he is still<BR>there) about a knife with a carved eagle head= on the handle, I have<BR>two scouts receiving their Eagle Scout Award ne= xt month and want to<BR>give them a gift.<BR>thanks<BR>Joe<BR>--<BR>Have = a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com<BR>Call us about o= ur tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440<BR>Ne= w leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!<BR><BR>------= ----------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/m= tman/maillist.html<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get = more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href=3D'http://explor= er.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A9D4.2B66C1C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knife Date: 31 Jan 2002 00:15:00 EST Joe, The last contact I have for Tom (Redwing) Hewitt is P.O.Box 221, Kimball, Nebraska 69145. Hope this is of some help. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Honesty(?) Date: 31 Jan 2002 01:46:38 EST --part1_ba.207e627b.298a424e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barney I do Be live you are right! I think I just found my Delete Fey and I now how to use it. Thank you. every much. Good by Raven Sue. You might want to check and see what side of the boat all your ores are on. And they call me Crazy! > > > > > > > > --part1_ba.207e627b.298a424e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Barney</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I do Be live you are right! <BR>I think I just found my Delete Fey and I now how to use it. Thank you. every much. <BR>Good by Raven Sue. <BR>You might want to check and see what side of the boat all your ores are on. <BR>And they call me Crazy! <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT></HTML> --part1_ba.207e627b.298a424e_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan Youngberg <bryany@trib.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knife Date: 31 Jan 2002 06:41:48 -0700 I think I have an email or snail mail address for him. I will find it this evening and send it to you if you would email me privately. Red Wing is still in Neb. I just spent time with him 3 weeks ago. Bryan bryany@trib.com Todd Glover wrote: > Joe, > > Great work with them Scouts...Keep it up! > > Todd > On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 07:17:58 -0700 Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> > writes: > > I am looking to contact Red Wing in Nebraska ( I think he is still > > there) about a knife with a carved eagle head on the handle, I have > > > > two scouts receiving their Eagle Scout Award next month and want to > > > > give them a gift. > > thanks > > Joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Indian OT ??? Date: 31 Jan 2002 07:33:29 -0800 (PST) Sorry couldn't resist !! The old Cherokee chief sat in his reservation hut, smoking the ceremonial pipe, eyeing the two US government officials sent to interview him. "Chief Two Eagles," one official began, "you have observed the white man for many generations, you have seen his wars and his products, you have seen all his progress, and all his problems." The chief nodded. The official continued, "Considering recent events, in your opinion, where has the white man gone wrong? "The chief stared at the government officials for over a minute, and then calmly replied. "When white man found the land, Indians were running it. No taxes. No debt. Plenty buffalo, Plenty beaver. Women did most of the work. Medicine man free. Indian men hunted and fished all the time" The chief smiled, and added quietly, "White man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that." ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Better safe than sorry !!! OT ??? Date: 31 Jan 2002 07:39:26 -0800 (PST) So many of these post turn out to be a hoax, but better safe than sorry ! -----Subject: Fw: Information from KU on new virus spreading rapidly >> Subject: Information from KU on new virus spreading rapidly >> >> >> > http://www.ku.edu/acs/virus/viruses/myparty.shtml ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knife Date: 31 Jan 2002 13:49:19 -0700 For what it's worth, Redwing most likely will be attending the Colorado State Muzzle Loading Association Winter Convention March 16th and 17th at Fort Lupton, CO. This year it will be held at the Fort Lupton High School, 530 Reynolds St. For more information contact the Perfessor. perfesser@qwest.net > evening and send it to you if you would email me privately. Red Wing > is > still in Neb. I just spent time with him 3 weeks ago. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan Youngberg <bryany@trib.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knife-Joe Date: 31 Jan 2002 15:43:59 -0700 --------------7FCFC4AFA9FF437044FC16BF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit redwingtrading@hotmail.com Michael Powell wrote: > Joe,Looking through my card file I find Redwing Trading "Tom Hewitt" > at P.O. Box 256Weeping Water, NE 68463 402-267-4895YMHOSMike Powell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joe Brandl > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 7:16 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: knife > I am looking to contact Red Wing in Nebraska ( I think he > is still > there) about a knife with a carved eagle head on the handle, > I have > two scouts receiving their Eagle Scout Award next month and > want to > give them a gift. > thanks > Joe > -- > Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com > Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole > furniture 307-455-2440 > New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're > great!! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com --------------7FCFC4AFA9FF437044FC16BF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <body STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"> redwingtrading@hotmail.com <p>Michael Powell wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Joe,Looking through my card file I find Redwing Trading "Tom Hewitt" at P.O. Box 256Weeping Water, NE 68463 402-267-4895YMHOSMike Powell <blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <div style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</div> <div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><b>From:</b> Joe Brandl</div> <div style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 30, 2002 7:16 PM</div> <div style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><b>To:</b> hist_text@lists.xmission.com</div> <div style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><b>Subject:</b> MtMan-List: knife</div> I am looking to contact Red Wing in Nebraska ( I think he is still <br>there) about a knife with a carved eagle head on the handle, I have <br>two scouts receiving their Eagle Scout Award next month and want to <br>give them a gift. <br>thanks <br>Joe <br>-- <br>Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com <br>Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 <br>New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! <p>---------------------- <br>hist_text list info: <A HREF="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></blockquote> <p><br> <hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a></blockquote> </body> </html> --------------7FCFC4AFA9FF437044FC16BF-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knife Date: 31 Jan 2002 09:24:55 -0700 I tried the phone # but no reply, need the knives by the 10th of Feb thanks joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knife Date: 31 Jan 2002 23:44:35 EST In a message dated 1/31/2002 8:24:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, jbrandl@wyoming.com writes: << I tried the phone # but no reply, >> Joe, Here is the number I have from our most recent Rendezvous registrations... 212 S. Elm Street, Kimball, NE (308) 235-2332 Hope this helps. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html