ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/hist_text.200111

Internet Message Format | 2001-11-30 | 350KB

From: Ellen Gossett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Laura's Ribs
Date: 01 Nov 2001 18:50:06 -0500

The knife you have is called a" lamb splitter' circa 1870,s. Gentleman James

Jim Lindberg wrote:

> I am posting this for a friend, please pass any information on to me and
> I'll pass it on to him.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim Lindberg
> Les Voyageurs du val du Chippewa
>
> Hello.  I am trying to research a knife that belonged to my great grand
> parents.
> It is a large butchering type knife with a 6" wood handle and 12"
> blade.  Hand stamped an the blade is "FOSTER BROS.  Trade 12 in large
> numerals)"  and a diamond with an arrow through it.   I do some antiques
> but this is a new one on me.  I have relatives buried on an Indian
> reservation in northeast Nebraska and it may have originated in that
> area.  Thanks  Ken Humphrey, Lake Park, Ia
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Laura's Ribs
Date: 01 Nov 2001 14:20:25 -0600


On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:36:01 -0500 "Addison Miller"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> Hey Hawk... HELP!!! ...I think they a'gonna lynch me... *grins*  Way
> ta go,
> y'all *BIGGER GRIN* !!!

aint no problem on this end---knew what you ment---did a offline prior to
your input---see you at the alifi---will have my new arkansas
underhammers with me to show off---made meat with one of the
prototypes---have 50 actions coming in 1 dec---so will be busy---using d
rice barrels right now they shoot great---and place that ball where you
point---need to find some smoothy barrels at a reasonable price then will
have some nice turkey guns---got to run---off to okla in the morning to
deer hunt there then back here next week---next season starts here in
about 10 days---filled my first season ML tags one with the original
hawken and one with my new underhammer---


got to run===nuff said---

hawk
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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory
Date: 02 Nov 2001 22:58:02 +0000

Dear friends of the Trade,
  I recently purchased a 3'x5' copy of "Old Glory" with 15 stars and 15
stripes. I want to be able to fly her in a period correct way. Does anybody
know the correct knots used before we had modern metal clips to fix her to
the lanyard. It seems to me they would have used a knot that could have been
tied without running the full length of rope through the grommet holes. Does
anybody out there have this information and/or
know where I can find it?
Your friend,
Don Secondine


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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory
Date: 02 Nov 2001 20:08:00 -0800

Don,

If you have a copy of Ashley's Book of Knots you might follow the directions
a bit better by looking on page 14 at the simple slip knot and on page 324
at illustration number 1989 as an example of how to use it to your flag
purposes but I will try to explain.

Your flag will have two grommets at top and bottom inside corners. Pre-make
a couple of "toggles" or two pointed sticks with a grove cut round the
center of each, stout enough to take a strain, say about the size of your
index finger with the groove cut about a quarter of the stick diameter into
the stick all around.

Into your flag halyard, tie a slip knot at the location for the top grommet
and pass the "loop" the knot forms through the grommet and then pass one of
the toggles through the loop. When you pull the halyard tight the loop will
try to back out of the grommet but will be held by the toggle and thus will
be locked in place at that location.

Proceed to tie another slip knot at the appropriate location for the bottom
grommet on your ensign and again pass the formed loop through the grommet
and the second toggle through that loop of halyard, pull tight and there you
have it.

You can probably get by with any handy short length of stick for the toggle
but it would be a workman like job if they were carved from good wood in the
form indicated.

You could also tie a permanent loop in the halyard for each toggle location,
with a smaller lanyard coming off the main line,  securing each toggle at
that location for future use, eliminating the necessity of finding a new
stick each time. The two toggle lanyards would come off the flag halyard and
be secured to each toggle through a hole at one end and of course made of
much smaller line.

If you need further explanation I am your Servant Sir.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory
Date: 03 Nov 2001 16:25:07 +0000

Howdy Cap'n,
  Thanks for the note on the correct knots for flying "Old Glory".
She will be flying proudly over the trading post and when I'm at events,
She will be flying high and proud over my camp.
Long live America with the Grace of God our Sovereign.
Your friend,
Don Secondine in the Ohio Country

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Books of Buckskining
Date: 04 Nov 2001 09:10:20 -0700

Hello the Camp,
I have wondered while looking through the Books of Buckskining, that a lot
of the arcticles have been writen by AMM Members, I also know that a lot of
knowledge men and ladies are on this list.
Why could we not publish a series of books on our combined knowledge? And
with that money help pay for the land. I think Allen Hall has this same idea
and I think it is a good one.
YMOS
Ole # 718

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field?
Date: 04 Nov 2001 09:15:19 -0700

Gentelmen,
A few years ago I saw a blerb on TV about a Steam Boat that had sunk  and
they had found it in a corn field? Is there a report on it? a Web site, how
about a list of the things found on it? I think that it went down in the
1830's. Does anyone have any Knowledge?
YMOS
Ole # 718

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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field?
Date: 04 Nov 2001 12:04:36 -0500

Ole, it was the Arabia, I believe.  It is on dispay in Kansas City, MO.  It
sank and the river over the years changed its course and it eneded up about
a mile-and-a-half in a farmers corn field. Might try using www.google.com
and type in kansas city.  Its in the old town area.  Great display they have
there. The display literally shows tens of thousands of items found on the
boat...

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Arabia
Date: 04 Nov 2001 9:19:40 -0800

<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Folks,   Check out this site concerning the steamboat Arabia.   <A href="http://www.1856.com/home.html">http://www.1856.com/home.html</A>      hardtack</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV>
<DIV>--- <A href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></DIV>
<DIV>We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>


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From: manbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field?
Date: 04 Nov 2001 12:42:27 -0500

Hi Ole,
My Mother-in-Law was at a convention in KC this last summer and visited the
Museum.  She brought back a bunch of pics and info.  Here is the link to the
web site.
YMOS
Manbear
 http://www.1856.com/home.html

"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:
A few years ago I saw a blerb on TV about a Steam Boat that had sunk  and
they had found it in a corn field?



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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field?
Date: 04 Nov 2001 12:33:23 -0500

http://lewisandclark.missouri.org/KansasCity.asp?region=5

I think this is what you are looking for.
Linda holley


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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ribs for Laura???
Date: 05 Nov 2001 09:18:01 -0600

I guess I missed it.  Who's this Laura person and why is she in need of
ribs?  Is she seriously injured from an accident or is it some illness?
Please restate the problem for those of us who don't monitor this list as
closely as some.

HBC


***********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442, ext 255   FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.museum.ttu.edu
***Living History . . . Because It's There***



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Books of Buckskining
Date: 05 Nov 2001 15:12:51 EST


In a message dated 11/4/1 5:11:59 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Why could we not publish a series of books on our combined knowledge? And
with that money help pay for the land. I think Allen Hall has this same idea
and I think it is a good one.>>

I like the idea.  It is a healthy spin-off of the idea to furnish guidelines
for the tabloid given to everyone at the Fort Bridger Rendezvous.  I would
recommend a board of editors for this one, though as determining what is
gospel and what is wishful thinking is going to produce a massive bucket of
worms.  Still - problems are there to be solved.  I hope someone picks this
one up and runs with it.

Richard James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field?
Date: 05 Nov 2001 15:27:36 EST


In a message dated 11/4/1 5:16:41 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<A few years ago I saw a blerb on TV about a Steam Boat that had sunk  and
they had found it in a corn field? Is there a report on it? a >>

Ole
The Bertrand was actually found in a corfield 600 yards east of the current
Missouri river just a bit north of Omaha.  Date was 15 April 1865.  With over
2 million artifacts it is acknowledged as the largest number of artifact ever
found on a site with knowledge of the exact date.  It was loaded with
supplies for the miners in Montana.  Originally it went down with the stacks
above the water.  The mercury flasks (for recovering gold) were recovered
(not recorded, but they were not there with the discovery in the 1960s) but
there were clothes, hundreds of shovels, brandied peaches (as in Ruxton's and
Stewart's writings) lead pencils, shoes, boots, bottles etc. . . . . .  It is
a fascinating place to visit.  Great display.  Much of what was found is now
in cold water (just above freezing) storage protected from oxygen and
sunlight on the presumption that future recovery techniques will be more
effective than the ones of the time.  After the recovery of artifacts - the
hull was never moved - just uncovered and dimensions recorded - the land was
allowed to recover the site  (fill in the "hole") for preservation.

There is another vessel, the Peru, I believe, sunk by a torpedo just north of
Vicksburg on the Yazoo River during the early part of the seige at the time
of the War of Northern Agression.  It, like the Bertrand, was shortly filled
with silt which protected the artifacts from two of their worst enemies - sun
and oxygen (I guess scavengers would be a third element of descruction).
This also is part of a grand display at Vicksburg but with the Peru (PEE-roo)
the hull was salvaged as well.

For what it is worth.
Pictures and books here at the house if you want to drop by sometime.

Dick James


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field?
Date: 04 Nov 2001 23:57:32 -0600

ole
contact dan anderson he knows all about mailto: [e-mail]

hawk-

--On Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:15:19 -0700 "Ole B. Jensen"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> Gentelmen,
> A few years ago I saw a blerb on TV about a Steam Boat that had sunk
>  and
> they had found it in a corn field? Is there a report on it? a Web
> site, how
> about a list of the things found on it? I think that it went down in
> the
> 1830's. Does anyone have any Knowledge?
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
>
> ----------------------
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>
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From: "Don  & Janice Shero" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: steamboats
Date: 05 Nov 2001 19:20:53 -0600

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In addition to the Arabia,  the Bertrum exhibit is at DeSoto Bend in =
Iowa. Can't recall the year she sank.
  I believe the number of wrecks is about one per two miles of  Missouri =
river,  About a dozen wreck locations are known,
but for various reasons will probally never be recovered.

  don

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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In addition to the Arabia,  the =
Bertrum=20
exhibit is at DeSoto Bend in Iowa. Can't recall the year she =
sank.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>  I believe the number of wrecks =
is about one=20
per two miles of  Missouri river,  About a dozen wreck=20
locations are known,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but for various reasons will probally =
never be=20
recovered.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>  don</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steamboats
Date: 06 Nov 2001 07:32:12 -0700

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Don,
What I am looking for is a manifest list of goods from a steamer that went
down in the 1830's.
If there is such a thing.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------


In addition to the Arabia,  the Bertrum exhibit is at DeSoto Bend in Iowa.
Can't recall the year she sank.
  I believe the number of wrecks is about one per two miles of  Missouri
river,  About a dozen wreck locations are known,
but for various reasons will probally never be recovered.

  don


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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: steamboats</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
Don,<BR>
What I am looking for is a manifest list of goods from a steamer that went =
down in the 1830's.<BR>
If there is such a thing.<BR>
YMOS<BR>
Ole # 718<BR>
----------<BR>
R>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">In addition to the Arabia,  the Bertrum exh=
ibit is at DeSoto Bend in Iowa. Can't recall the year she sank.<BR>
  I believe the number of wrecks is about one per two miles of &n=
bsp;Missouri river,  About a dozen wreck locations are known,<BR>
but for various reasons will probally never be recovered.<BR>
</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">  don<BR>
</FONT><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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From: "James Zeigler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mt.Goat Horn source
Date: 06 Nov 2001 15:59:07 -0500

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Re: MtMan-List: steamboatsHello List: Was wondering if anyone would know =
of a source for a=20
Mt. Goat horn. Was told they would make a good ( unusual )
priming horn. Thank you in advance....Jim

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: steamboats</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello List: Was wondering if anyone =
would know of a=20
source for a </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mt. Goat horn. Was told they would make =
a good (=20
unusual )</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>priming horn. Thank you in=20
advance....Jim</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: T W <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt.Goat Horn source
Date: 06 Nov 2001 18:51:10 -0800 (PST)

--0-1234967462-1005101470=:47703
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Moscow hide and fur (http://www.hideandfur.com/)  carries domestic goat horns but dosen't have any in stock right now. worth checking it in the future. I will post othes as I run across them.
Mark

  James Zeigler <[e-mail]> wrote: Hello List: Was wondering if anyone would know of a source for a Mt. Goat horn. Was told they would make a good ( unusual )priming horn. Thank you in advance....Jim


Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume on Yahoo! Careers.
--0-1234967462-1005101470=:47703
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<P>Moscow hide and fur (<A href="http://www.hideandfur.com/) ">http://www.hideandfur.com/) </A> carries domestic goat horns but dosen't have any in stock right now. worth checking it in the future. I will post othes as I run across them.
<P>Mark
<P>
<P>  <B><I>James Zeigler <[e-mail]></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello List: Was wondering if anyone would know of a source for a </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mt. Goat horn. Was told they would make a good ( unusual )</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>priming horn. Thank you in advance....Jim</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
Find a job, post your resume on <a
href="http://careers.yahoo.com/?clink=foot-fp" target="_blank">Yahoo! Careers</a>.
--0-1234967462-1005101470=:47703--

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steamboats
Date: 06 Nov 2001 22:53:14 EST


In a message dated 11/6/1 2:23:38 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<In addition to the Arabia,  the Bertrum exhibit is at DeSoto Bend in Iowa.
Can't recall the year she sank.>>

Don
Ther Bertrand went down 15 April 1865.
Richard James

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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory
Date: 08 Nov 2001 13:45:18 -0800

Don,

Your welcome. Thus is jard to do witk a splimet on my indecs finger!

Dont,ask!

Cat.Lahti

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 8:25 AM


> Howdy Cap'n,
>   Thanks for the note on the correct knots for flying "Old Glory".
> She will be flying proudly over the trading post and when I'm at events,
> She will be flying high and proud over my camp.
> Long live America with the Grace of God our Sovereign.
> Your friend,
> Don Secondine in the Ohio Country
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
> ----------------------
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>


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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory
Date: 08 Nov 2001 17:10:00 -0800

Don,

Fingers feeling much better since I took the splint off! BTW, I was thinking
that you could also accomplish a PC method by making a couple "toggles" that
are on short lanyards at each grommet location. (the lanyard being only half
as long as the toggle from where it is tied to the flag halyard to the
center of the toggle), pass the toggles through the grommets and let them
turn sideways and they won't back out until you pull some slack in the
lanyards and feed them back through the grommets. Of course the grommets
need to be just big enough to pass the toggle sticks and the lanyard. Got
the picture? <G>

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 8:25 AM


> Howdy Cap'n,
>   Thanks for the note on the correct knots for flying "Old Glory".
> She will be flying proudly over the trading post and when I'm at events,
> She will be flying high and proud over my camp.
> Long live America with the Grace of God our Sovereign.
> Your friend,
> Don Secondine in the Ohio Country
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
> ----------------------
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>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory
Date: 08 Nov 2001 20:31:10 EST

That's OK Capt. Lahti,  I understand "gimp" just fine.

Sleeps Loudly

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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory
Date: 08 Nov 2001 18:53:06 -0800

Sleeps Loudly,

It's gonna slow me down for a day or so but I was planning on going back up
for elk in the morning and ain't gonna let this slow me down for too long.
Thanks for the understanding. <G>

Capt. Lahti'

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 5:31 PM


> That's OK Capt. Lahti,  I understand "gimp" just fine.
>
> Sleeps Loudly
>
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From: mitch post <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: steamboat sinkings in the 1830s
Date: 08 Nov 2001 19:52:18 -0800 (PST)

Ole-there is a recovery going on in Oklahoma on the
Red River. Don't have the website in front of me at
the moment. This was discovered recently. I've met
some of the folks involved in the "excavation" from
the Oklahoma Historical Society. Might try searching
for their website. I'll do a little digging and see
what I come up with in my records. Hope this helps a
bit-let me know. Mitch Post in SW Arkansas...formerly Montana

=====
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From: mitch post <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: steamboat sinking website
Date: 08 Nov 2001 19:58:42 -0800 (PST)

Ole-try this site
http://nautarch.tamu.edu/PROJECTS/redriver

 That is the Red River steamboat site I have. Hope
this helps. Mitch

=====
"RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL"

__________________________________________________
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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory
Date: 09 Nov 2001 12:57:09 +0000

Howdy Cap'n,
  Thanks again for the info.
  Here's a old time Delaware Indian remedy for your smarting digit.
One of my uncles said you should soak it in cider. ;) I hope you get your
elk.
Your friend in the Ohio Country,
Don Secondine


>From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory
>Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:10:00 -0800
>
>Don,
>
>Fingers feeling much better since I took the splint off! BTW, I was
>thinking
>that you could also accomplish a PC method by making a couple "toggles"
>that
>are on short lanyards at each grommet location. (the lanyard being only
>half
>as long as the toggle from where it is tied to the flag halyard to the
>center of the toggle), pass the toggles through the grommets and let them
>turn sideways and they won't back out until you pull some slack in the
>lanyards and feed them back through the grommets. Of course the grommets
>need to be just big enough to pass the toggle sticks and the lanyard. Got
>the picture? <G>
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 8:25 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory
>
>
> > Howdy Cap'n,
> >   Thanks for the note on the correct knots for flying "Old Glory".
> > She will be flying proudly over the trading post and when I'm at events,
> > She will be flying high and proud over my camp.
> > Long live America with the Grace of God our Sovereign.
> > Your friend,
> > Don Secondine in the Ohio Country
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >
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>
>
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From: "Steve Banks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field?
Date: 09 Nov 2001 17:37:55 -0700

the boat is located in the Kansas City area
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 9:15 AM


> Gentelmen,
> A few years ago I saw a blerb on TV about a Steam Boat that had sunk  and
> they had found it in a corn field? Is there a report on it? a Web site,
how
> about a list of the things found on it? I think that it went down in the
> 1830's. Does anyone have any Knowledge?
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
>
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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: steamboats
Date: 10 Nov 2001 21:21:31 -0600

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Re: MtMan-List: steamboatsOle
 I know Tulane University is not really in your neighborhood but you =
might call and see if this might give you a few leads.=20
http://www.tulane.edu/~lmiller/Transportation.html=20
Lanney


----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:32 AM


Don,
What I am looking for is a manifest list of goods from a steamer that =
went down in the 1830's.
If there is such a thing.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------



  In addition to the Arabia,  the Bertrum exhibit is at DeSoto Bend in =
Iowa. Can't recall the year she sank.
    I believe the number of wrecks is about one per two miles of  =
Missouri river,  About a dozen wreck locations are known,
  but for various reasons will probally never be recovered.
  =20
    don



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: steamboats</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ole</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> I know Tulane University is not really in your =

neighborhood but you might call and see if this might give you a few=20
leads. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.tulane.edu/~lmiller/Transportation.html">http://www.tu=
lane.edu/~lmiller/Transportation.html</A> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Lanney</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Ole B.=20
Jensen</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[e-mail]=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:32 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: steamboats</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Don,<BR>What I am looking for is a manifest list of goods =
from a=20
steamer that went down in the 1830's.<BR>If there is such a=20
thing.<BR>YMOS<BR>Ole # 718<BR>----------<BR>From: "Don  & =
Janice=20
Shero" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>To:=20
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR>Subject:=20
MtMan-List: steamboats<BR>Date: Mon, Nov 5, 2001, 6:20 PM<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2>In addition to the Arabia,  the Bertrum =
exhibit=20
  is at DeSoto Bend in Iowa. Can't recall the year she =
sank.<BR>  I=20
  believe the number of wrecks is about one per two miles of =
 Missouri=20
  river,  About a dozen wreck locations are known,<BR>but for =
various=20
  reasons will probally never be recovered.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>  don<BR></FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: NEW KIT!
Date: 11 Nov 2001 13:12:44 -0500

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Sorry for the cross posting, but I have a new traditonal kit on the =
site. http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/
Thought you might like it.
Thanks for your time
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
       Knives and Iron Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

   "Knowing how is just the beginning."

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry for the cross posting, but I have =
a new=20
traditonal kit on the site. <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1=
/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thought you might like it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for your time</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>   "Abair ach beagan is abair =
gu math=20
e"<BR>            =
DOUBLE=20
EDGE FORGE<BR>       Knives and Iron=20
Accouterments<BR>      <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>   "Knowing how is just the=20
beginning."</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: The"Cascades" (test question)
Date: 11 Nov 2001 13:29:48 EST

Hallo the List,

Here's a few fur trade history test questions:

#1 What did the Americans call the Cascade mountains?

#2 Who gave the name "Cascades" to the mountains?

#3 and, for a few more points, what year was the name given?

As you can tell, I've been reading to much of late.

Ymos,
Magpie

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From: Michael Wolfe <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Pine tar soap
Date: 12 Nov 2001 08:32:58 -0800 (PST)

Good Day to all! Its been a while since Ive writen to
the list (my web tv is kaput!)But I'm back on line
with a computer and a new location.Anyway heres a
question to chew on. I'm very fond of pine tar soap
 and was wondering how far back it use may go,the
brand  I buy has been made since 1878. So if any one
has a ref. to it being used earlier I would love to
here of it!!
                   YMOS,
                        Michael A. Smith Esq.
                      Somerset County,Maryland
                        on the Barren Creek.

__________________________________________________
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From: "James Zeigler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: cast trigger gaurd
Date: 12 Nov 2001 15:35:12 -0500




 Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger gaurd on my Hawken and
was wondering if anyone could tell me of the best way to polish a cast
 iron not brass) trigger gaurd to get it ready to brown?
 Thank you in advance.....Jim



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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger gaurd
Date: 12 Nov 2001 15:36:03 -0700

James,
I start out by Filing with as large a file as will work then work down to
needle files. After that I start with 80 grit sand paper and file all
surfaces so that I don't round the details, I will keep going by using
finner and finner paper and usuly end with 320 if I am going to use
browning. If I want to polish it I will go to 600 grit and then on to steel
wool. After polishing I heat the metal in an oven to 300 deg and coat with
bees wax.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "James Zeigler" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: cast trigger gaurd
>Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001, 1:35 PM
>

>
>
>
> Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger gaurd on my Hawken and
>was wondering if anyone could tell me of the best way to polish a cast
> iron not brass) trigger gaurd to get it ready to brown?
> Thank you in advance.....Jim
>
>
>
>----------------------
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From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 12 Nov 2001 16:31:37 -0700

This message is in MIME format.  Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Howdy,
Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish.  In fact
the
browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish.
Simply file off the mold marks and rough spots, leave no file marks, if
surface still is not to your satisfaction  use a finer file.  I used to
polish
to a fine finish, but when the rusting action begins, all of your elbow
grease goes down the drain.  Frequently after filing smooth, I will
bead blast a trigger guard or lock plate.  The light matting effect
seems to really accept the solution more smoothly, but is definitely
not a technique used by early gun builders.  I also find little or
no need for sand papers.
Good Luck,
Old Coyote

>  Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger guard on my
> Hawken and
> was wondering if anyone could tell me of the best way to polish a
> cast
>  iron not brass) trigger gaurd to get it ready to brown?
>  Thank you in advance.....Jim
----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3Dcontent-type content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bottomMargin=3D0 leftMargin=3D3 topMargin=3D0 rightMargin=3D3>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Howdy,</DIV>
<DIV>Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish.  In=
 fact=20
the</DIV>
<DIV>browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish. </=
DIV>
<DIV>Simply file off the mold marks and rough spots, leave no file =
marks,=20
if</DIV>
<DIV>surface still is not to your satisfaction  use a finer file. =
; I=20
used to polish</DIV>
<DIV>to a fine finish, but when the rusting action begins, all of your =
elbow=20
</DIV>
<DIV>grease goes down the drain.  Frequently after filing smooth, I=20
will</DIV>
<DIV>bead blast a trigger guard or lock plate.  The light matting=20
effect</DIV>
<DIV>seems to really accept the solution more smoothly, but is definitely</=
DIV>
<DIV>not a technique used by early gun builders.  I also find little=20
or</DIV>
<DIV>no need for sand papers.</DIV>
<DIV>Good Luck,</DIV>
<DIV>Old Coyote</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>  Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger guard =
on my=20
<BR>> Hawken and<BR>> was wondering if anyone could tell me of the =
best=20
way to polish a <BR>> cast<BR>>  iron not brass) trigger gaurd =
to get=20
it ready to brown?<BR>>  Thank you in=20
advance.....Jim<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080--

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From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 12 Nov 2001 16:31:37 -0700

This message is in MIME format.  Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Howdy,
Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish.  In fact
the
browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish.
Simply file off the mold marks and rough spots, leave no file marks, if
surface still is not to your satisfaction  use a finer file.  I used to
polish
to a fine finish, but when the rusting action begins, all of your elbow
grease goes down the drain.  Frequently after filing smooth, I will
bead blast a trigger guard or lock plate.  The light matting effect
seems to really accept the solution more smoothly, but is definitely
not a technique used by early gun builders.  I also find little or
no need for sand papers.
Good Luck,
Old Coyote

>  Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger guard on my
> Hawken and
> was wondering if anyone could tell me of the best way to polish a
> cast
>  iron not brass) trigger gaurd to get it ready to brown?
>  Thank you in advance.....Jim
----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3Dcontent-type content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bottomMargin=3D0 leftMargin=3D3 topMargin=3D0 rightMargin=3D3>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Howdy,</DIV>
<DIV>Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish.  In=
 fact=20
the</DIV>
<DIV>browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish. </=
DIV>
<DIV>Simply file off the mold marks and rough spots, leave no file =
marks,=20
if</DIV>
<DIV>surface still is not to your satisfaction  use a finer file. =
; I=20
used to polish</DIV>
<DIV>to a fine finish, but when the rusting action begins, all of your =
elbow=20
</DIV>
<DIV>grease goes down the drain.  Frequently after filing smooth, I=20
will</DIV>
<DIV>bead blast a trigger guard or lock plate.  The light matting=20
effect</DIV>
<DIV>seems to really accept the solution more smoothly, but is definitely</=
DIV>
<DIV>not a technique used by early gun builders.  I also find little=20
or</DIV>
<DIV>no need for sand papers.</DIV>
<DIV>Good Luck,</DIV>
<DIV>Old Coyote</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>  Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger guard =
on my=20
<BR>> Hawken and<BR>> was wondering if anyone could tell me of the =
best=20
way to polish a <BR>> cast<BR>>  iron not brass) trigger gaurd =
to get=20
it ready to brown?<BR>>  Thank you in=20
advance.....Jim<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080--

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From: "Bill Klesinger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland
Date: 12 Nov 2001 20:14:01 -0700

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Question ? dose anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? I
may be headed to Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the country?
Bill Klesinger



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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D105580903-13112001>Question ? dose=20
anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? I may be headed =
to=20
Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the country? =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bill <SPAN=20
class=3D105580903-13112001>Klesinger</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland
Date: 12 Nov 2001 22:25:24 -0500

Bill,

From the page describing political and governmental aspects of the
Scandinavian
Union (which includes Greenland):
http://home.enter.vg/bluenova/su2300ad/PoliticsGovernment/
ScandinaviaIn2300ADPoliticsGovernment.htm

yields the following:

"It should be noted that SU gun laws are very restrictive. Getting a
permit for a sporting rifle involves extensive testing and careful
registration, getting a permit for a handgun is virtually impossible
unless the applicant is a police officer, licensed security guard or
military officer. In short, a person must prove a legitimate need and
submit to testing and registration to get any kind of lethal weapon, and
to SU authority "in case I have to defend myself" isn't really a
legitimate need for civilians. Carrying a gun without a permit is a
serious infraction which more than once has been interpreted as "Intent
to Kill" and followed by a lengthy prison sentence."


I guess some folks define "civilized" quite different then others.

Tom



> Bill Klesinger wrote:
>
> Question ? dose anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland
> ? I may be headed to Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the
> country?
>
> Bill Klesinger
>
>

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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland
Date: 12 Nov 2001 21:34:10 -0600

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Bill

I believe Greenland is part of Denmark.  Check the page show below (and =
an excerpt from an interesting list found at the site) for a clue about =
gun possession.  Who knows what regulations apply to muzzleloaders, =
never mind possession of black powder.

Lanney

http://www.paamiut.gl/ukkomgen.htm

Guns.    Since January 1st. 1994 the present gun law has been effective. =
This law forbids any possession or use of pistols, revolvers and any =
other handgun. Single shot and hand operated repeating centerfire and =
rimfire rifles as well as shotguns are allowed without permits. =
Semiautomatic rifles and shotguns are only allowed if you are registered =
as a hunter and more than 50% of your income derives from this =
occupation. Fully automatic weapons are forbidden.=20

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 9:14 PM


Question ? dose anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? =
I may be headed to Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the =
country?=20
Bill Klesinger



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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua" =
size=3D2><B>Bill</B></FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua" size=3D2>I =
believe Greenland is=20
part of Denmark.  Check the page show below (and an excerpt from an =

interesting list found at the site) for a clue about gun =
possession.  Who=20
knows what regulations apply to muzzleloaders, never mind possession of =
black=20
powder.</FONT></STRONG></P>
<P align=3Djustify><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"=20
size=3D2>Lanney</FONT></STRONG></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua" size=3D2><B><A=20
href=3D"http://www.paamiut.gl/ukkomgen.htm">http://www.paamiut.gl/ukkomge=
n.htm</A></B></FONT></P>
<P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua" =
size=3D2><B>Guns.   =20
Since January 1st. 1994 the present gun law has been effective. This law =
forbids=20
any possession or use of pistols, revolvers and any other handgun</B>. =
Single=20
shot and hand operated repeating centerfire and rimfire rifles as well =
as=20
shotguns are allowed without permits. Semiautomatic rifles and shotguns =
are only=20
allowed if you are registered as a hunter and more than 50% of your =
income=20
derives from this occupation. Fully automatic weapons are forbidden.=20
</FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Bill =
Klesinger</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[e-mail]=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Hist_LIST</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 12, 2001 9:14 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D105580903-13112001>Question ? dose=20
anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? I may be headed =
to=20
Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the country? =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bill <SPAN=20
class=3D105580903-13112001>Klesinger</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Your stuff
Date: 12 Nov 2001 20:48:08 -0700

Hi Tom,

I made a trip up to Pinedale today and got your blanket and buff powder horn
from the museum.  I'd like to return them to you.  Where would you like it
sent to?

Allen


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Klesinger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland
Date: 12 Nov 2001 20:53:51 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Interisting place but Thule is about 1000 mile north of there. They wont see
the sun until April now.

Bill
  -----Original Message-----
  From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Lanney Ratcliff
  Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 8:34 PM
  To: History List
  Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland


  Bill

  I believe Greenland is part of Denmark.  Check the page show below (and an
excerpt from an interesting list found at the site) for a clue about gun
possession.  Who knows what regulations apply to muzzleloaders, never mind
possession of black powder.

  Lanney

  http://www.paamiut.gl/ukkomgen.htm

  Guns.    Since January 1st. 1994 the present gun law has been effective.
This law forbids any possession or use of pistols, revolvers and any other
handgun. Single shot and hand operated repeating centerfire and rimfire
rifles as well as shotguns are allowed without permits. Semiautomatic rifles
and shotguns are only allowed if you are registered as a hunter and more
than 50% of your income derives from this occupation. Fully automatic
weapons are forbidden.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Bill Klesinger
  To: Hist_LIST
  Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 9:14 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland


  Question ? dose anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? I
may be headed to Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the country?
  Bill Klesinger



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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D788255203-13112001>Interisting place but Thule is about 1000 =
mile north of=20
there. They wont see the sun until April now. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D788255203-13112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D788255203-13112001>Bill=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  [e-mail]=20
  [mailto:[e-mail]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Lanney=20
  Ratcliff<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 12, 2001 8:34 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  History List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Fw: MtMan-List: mountaineers in=20
  Greenland<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV>
  <P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua" =
size=3D2><B>Bill</B></FONT></P>
  <P align=3Djustify><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua" size=3D2>I =
believe Greenland=20
  is part of Denmark.  Check the page show below (and an excerpt =
from an=20
  interesting list found at the site) for a clue about gun =
possession.  Who=20
  knows what regulations apply to muzzleloaders, never mind possession =
of black=20
  powder.</FONT></STRONG></P>
  <P align=3Djustify><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"=20
  size=3D2>Lanney</FONT></STRONG></P>
  <P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua" size=3D2><B><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.paamiut.gl/ukkomgen.htm">http://www.paamiut.gl/ukkomge=
n.htm</A></B></FONT></P>
  <P align=3Djustify><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua" =
size=3D2><B>Guns.   =20
  Since January 1st. 1994 the present gun law has been effective. This =
law=20
  forbids any possession or use of pistols, revolvers and any other =
handgun</B>.=20
  Single shot and hand operated repeating centerfire and rimfire rifles =
as well=20
  as shotguns are allowed without permits. Semiautomatic rifles and =
shotguns are=20
  only allowed if you are registered as a hunter and more than 50% of =
your=20
  income derives from this occupation. Fully automatic weapons are =
forbidden.=20
  </FONT></P></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" title=[e-mail]>Bill =
Klesinger</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>Hist_LIST</A> </DIV>
  <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 12, 2001 9:14 PM</DIV>
  <DIV><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland</DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D105580903-13112001>Question ? dose=20
  anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? I may be =
headed to=20
  Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the country?=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>Bill <SPAN=20
  class=3D105580903-13112001>Klesinger</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Your stuff
Date: 12 Nov 2001 20:00:43 -0800 (PST)

Allen,
 Send it to grn at
1005 W Donkey Lane
 Marlow OK.
<GRIN>
--- Allen Hall <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
> I made a trip up to Pinedale today and got your
> blanket and buff powder horn
> from the museum.  I'd like to return them to you.
> Where would you like it
> sent to?
>
> Allen
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
http://personals.yahoo.com

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 13 Nov 2001 01:34:17 EST

I am going to stick my neck out on this one:

We have mentioned several times possibilities of AMM providing guidelines for
correctness to be included in the tabloid that is given to everyone at the
annual Fort Bridger Rendezvous  (approximately 30 - 40,000 people).  Now
things as silent.  I will be meeting with the adminstrators of the next
gathering and would like to present this proposal to them, but -- we have no
proposal.  And so I make this offer:

    I will edit the first draught of such an offering based on what all of
you choose to submit and do it after counseling with "qualified others".   I
propose and will list below a suggested start for the subjects to be covered.
 I will accumulate and catagorize the material and provide for the several
possible alternatives in each catagory.  I also solicit suggestions to expand
the catagories I list here so we can be more nearly complete.  And so we can
be more nearly correct . . . Please include a bibliography or other reference
documenting historic correctness.

    To begin the catagories, I will make the following suggestions:

Clothing: Hat, shirt, smock, coat, capote, breeches, leggins, scarves,
moccasins - footgear, belts, decoration (if any), materials used, style and
patterns,  what NOT . . .  and . . . .

Shooting Gear:  Long gun ( flint, percussion, style, caliber, number . . .)
hand guns, Pouches, horns, cappers, flint equipment, patches, containers,
patch knife, patch material"care and keeping" tools, how worn or carried,
etc.

Camp Gear: Kettles, cups,  spoons, forks, plates, fire tools, ropes, shovels,
canteens. tenting,. . . .

Sleeping gear:  Blankets, ground cover, apishamores, etc..

Possibles: Razor, mirror, firesteel, awl, stitchery equipment,  journals,
telescope, maps, books,         et. al..

Trade Goods:  Beads, awls, blankets, knives, ammunition,  foo-foo-rah and
gee-gaws

Horse Gear:  Saddles, bridles, riggings, pickets,  hobbles . . . .

Trapping Gear:  Design(s),  how many, bait, . . . .

AND . . .

Shall we go for it???

Dick James


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 13 Nov 2001 07:49:31 EST

In a message dated 11/12/01 3:30:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish.  In fact
 the
 browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish.  >>

What's even more important than the finish is getting ALL oil & grease off
the surface before applying the browning solution.  111 Triclorethylene used
to do a GREAT job, but it's no longer available.  I've found that hanging the
part then flooding the surface with automotive aerosol brake cleaner or carb
cleaner works well.  Once the surface is clean, DON'T TOUCH IT until it's
browned.  If you MUST hold it with something to stabilize it while applying
the browning solution, clean a pair of pliers or a "C" clamp with brake
cleaner & use it or use a paper towel to grip the part with.  If your surface
develops spots where the browning doesn't "take" spray the part down again &
apply more browning solution.  As with all chemicals, use only in a well
ventilated area!

NM

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 13 Nov 2001 07:19:38 -0700

Dick,
Go for it!
However what period? at Bridger there are sometimes more than one time
period that are being shown.
I would suggest that we describe a Mountain Man about 1830 to 1835 and his
gear. We also need to describe a long hunter 1765 to 1775 with his gear.
There are others but I can't think of them.
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
>Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001, 11:34 PM
>

>I am going to stick my neck out on this one:
>
>We have mentioned several times possibilities of AMM providing guidelines for
>correctness to be included in the tabloid that is given to everyone at the
>annual Fort Bridger Rendezvous  (approximately 30 - 40,000 people).  Now
>things as silent.  I will be meeting with the adminstrators of the next
>gathering and would like to present this proposal to them, but -- we have no
>proposal.  And so I make this offer:
>
>    I will edit the first draught of such an offering based on what all of
>you choose to submit and do it after counseling with "qualified others".   I
>propose and will list below a suggested start for the subjects to be covered.
> I will accumulate and catagorize the material and provide for the several
>possible alternatives in each catagory.  I also solicit suggestions to expand
>the catagories I list here so we can be more nearly complete.  And so we can
>be more nearly correct . . . Please include a bibliography or other reference
>documenting historic correctness.
>
>    To begin the catagories, I will make the following suggestions:
>
>Clothing: Hat, shirt, smock, coat, capote, breeches, leggins, scarves,
>moccasins - footgear, belts, decoration (if any), materials used, style and
>patterns,  what NOT . . .  and . . . .
>
>Shooting Gear:  Long gun ( flint, percussion, style, caliber, number . . .)
>hand guns, Pouches, horns, cappers, flint equipment, patches, containers,
>patch knife, patch material"care and keeping" tools, how worn or carried,
>etc.
>
>Camp Gear: Kettles, cups,  spoons, forks, plates, fire tools, ropes, shovels,
>canteens. tenting,. . . .
>
>Sleeping gear:  Blankets, ground cover, apishamores, etc..
>
>Possibles: Razor, mirror, firesteel, awl, stitchery equipment,  journals,
>telescope, maps, books,         et. al..
>
>Trade Goods:  Beads, awls, blankets, knives, ammunition,  foo-foo-rah and
>gee-gaws
>
>Horse Gear:  Saddles, bridles, riggings, pickets,  hobbles . . . .
>
>Trapping Gear:  Design(s),  how many, bait, . . . .
>
>AND . . .
>
>Shall we go for it???
>
>Dick James
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 13 Nov 2001 15:36:31 EST


In a message dated 11/13/1 3:23:05 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<I would suggest that we describe a Mountain Man about 1830 to 1835 and his
gear. We also need to describe a long hunter 1765 to 1775 with his gear.>>

Ole-Ole
I'm glad to see you had the sense to spend time with your computer today
instead of going out in the rain.  I spent an interesting last saturday at a
symposium moderated by Fred Gowan.  He dealt with this subject.  His feeling
is that there are "book-ends" on the period and he places them at the date of
Lewis & Clark's return on one end and 1840 on the other.  Hyram Chittenden,
on the other hand, specifies 1807 until the building of Bridger's Post in
1843.  Interesting they parallel after a century of  space between
statements.   Fred went on to say that you cannot isolate information within
the given time frame and ignore politics, history, and even geography outside
of that range.  I told him I fully agreed and though his classes begin with
events in the early 1600s, when I taught "History, Culture, and Crafts of the
Mountain Man"  I began in the 1500s with Giovani Cabotta (John Cabbot).  My
example was Z. Leonard's recounting the celebration of the victory of the
Battle of New Orleans while in a trappers' camp in the Rockies more than a
decade later.  Fred's point was the progression of political pressures from
all nations involved in working the fur country.

There are some other interesting developments in their embryonic stage right
now that will shortly be on the scene.  Properly treated they could all be a
showcase for AMM.

Now to answer your question:  I wouldn't exclude any of the fur trade period
in advising individuals in equipage for their personna, but surely directions
could key certain things to certain time periods.  They should be labled as
such.  As to longhunters and even colonial riflemen - my opinion only - there
wasn't that much difference as outfits and clothing from one period bled into
the next.  In dealing with public education on the subject (which includes
the un-learning of some of the crap being dosed out in the public schools) I
have a strong feeling about paying tribute to both the above mentioned
periods in order to foster an appreciation for what sacrifices and efforts
were manifest in order to make such a magnificent America possible.

'Nuff said for now.
Dick James

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 13 Nov 2001 15:38:30 EST


Sorry --
 I just sent a long letter of response out to Ole before I realized he has
written me on the AMM screen rather than just a personal letter.

Dick James

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Greenland
Date: 13 Nov 2001 15:23:07 -0600

Bill K asked,
    <? I
may be headed to Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the country?>
    Bill, I don't know for sure what the gun laws are but Greenland is one
of the most socialized countries in the world. Everything is controled. That
is why we don't hear much about it.
    I'll bet gun ownership and usage is heavily regulated.
Frank Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 13 Nov 2001 16:40:51 -0700

Dick,
I think what you say is right. However we need to keep it short (low
attention span) It should be only a couple of pages as a hand out. If it is
to be sold to the public in should be detailed and should describe the
diferent periods that show up at Bridger and the diferences.
On a 2 page hand out it should be pointed out what is not correct (nicely).
YMOS
Ole # 718 Hivarno
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
>Date: Tue, Nov 13, 2001, 1:36 PM
>

>
>In a message dated 11/13/1 3:23:05 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><<I would suggest that we describe a Mountain Man about 1830 to 1835 and his
>gear. We also need to describe a long hunter 1765 to 1775 with his gear.>>
>
>Ole-Ole
>I'm glad to see you had the sense to spend time with your computer today
>instead of going out in the rain.  I spent an interesting last saturday at a
>symposium moderated by Fred Gowan.  He dealt with this subject.  His feeling
>is that there are "book-ends" on the period and he places them at the date of
>Lewis & Clark's return on one end and 1840 on the other.  Hyram Chittenden,
>on the other hand, specifies 1807 until the building of Bridger's Post in
>1843.  Interesting they parallel after a century of  space between
>statements.   Fred went on to say that you cannot isolate information within
>the given time frame and ignore politics, history, and even geography outside
>of that range.  I told him I fully agreed and though his classes begin with
>events in the early 1600s, when I taught "History, Culture, and Crafts of the
>Mountain Man"  I began in the 1500s with Giovani Cabotta (John Cabbot).  My
>example was Z. Leonard's recounting the celebration of the victory of the
>Battle of New Orleans while in a trappers' camp in the Rockies more than a
>decade later.  Fred's point was the progression of political pressures from
>all nations involved in working the fur country.
>
>There are some other interesting developments in their embryonic stage right
>now that will shortly be on the scene.  Properly treated they could all be a
>showcase for AMM.
>
>Now to answer your question:  I wouldn't exclude any of the fur trade period
>in advising individuals in equipage for their personna, but surely directions
>could key certain things to certain time periods.  They should be labled as
>such.  As to longhunters and even colonial riflemen - my opinion only - there
>wasn't that much difference as outfits and clothing from one period bled into
>the next.  In dealing with public education on the subject (which includes
>the un-learning of some of the crap being dosed out in the public schools) I
>have a strong feeling about paying tribute to both the above mentioned
>periods in order to foster an appreciation for what sacrifices and efforts
>were manifest in order to make such a magnificent America possible.
>
>'Nuff said for now.
>Dick James
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 13 Nov 2001 17:48:50 -0700

Dick,

Sounds like an excellent frame work to present  to the administrators.
I agree with Ole  that the free hand out or newspaper article should be
kept short and change year to year.
Then we can compile the "Best of AMM" project and have a demand for it.

By the way..  what was the seminar you attended with Fred? and why didn't
you tell us ?

Todd


On Tue, 13 Nov 2001 01:34:17 EST [e-mail] writes:
> I am going to stick my neck out on this one:
>
> We have mentioned several times possibilities of AMM providing
> guidelines for
> correctness to be included in the tabloid that is given to everyone
> at the
> annual Fort Bridger Rendezvous  (approximately 30 - 40,000 people).
> Now
> things as silent.  I will be meeting with the adminstrators of the
> next
> gathering and would like to present this proposal to them, but -- we
> have no
> proposal.  And so I make this offer:
>
>     I will edit the first draught of such an offering based on what
> all of
> you choose to submit and do it after counseling with "qualified
> others".   I
> propose and will list below a suggested start for the subjects to be
> covered.
>  I will accumulate and catagorize the material and provide for the
> several
> possible alternatives in each catagory.  I also solicit suggestions
> to expand
> the catagories I list here so we can be more nearly complete.  And
> so we can
> be more nearly correct . . . Please include a bibliography or other
> reference
> documenting historic correctness.
>
>     To begin the catagories, I will make the following suggestions:
>
> Clothing: Hat, shirt, smock, coat, capote, breeches, leggins,
> scarves,
> moccasins - footgear, belts, decoration (if any), materials used,
> style and
> patterns,  what NOT . . .  and . . . .
>
> Shooting Gear:  Long gun ( flint, percussion, style, caliber, number
> . . .)
> hand guns, Pouches, horns, cappers, flint equipment, patches,
> containers,
> patch knife, patch material"care and keeping" tools, how worn or
> carried,
> etc.
>
> Camp Gear: Kettles, cups,  spoons, forks, plates, fire tools, ropes,
> shovels,
> canteens. tenting,. . . .
>
> Sleeping gear:  Blankets, ground cover, apishamores, etc..
>
> Possibles: Razor, mirror, firesteel, awl, stitchery equipment,
> journals,
> telescope, maps, books,         et. al..
>
> Trade Goods:  Beads, awls, blankets, knives, ammunition,
> foo-foo-rah and
> gee-gaws
>
> Horse Gear:  Saddles, bridles, riggings, pickets,  hobbles . . . .
>
> Trapping Gear:  Design(s),  how many, bait, . . . .
>
> AND . . .
>
> Shall we go for it???
>
> Dick James
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
http://tetontodd.tripod.com

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions
Date: 13 Nov 2001 20:53:08 EST

Initially, giving folks the "guidelines" tends to sound nice.  However, after
thinking on it a spell, this has the potential to become one of those pieces
of written word that, over a few short years, becomes canon.  Besides, could
you possibly fit all that someone would need to knwo to even start living
history in a flyer/pulp rag printup?

One thought, and others please respond with your thoughts on the issue, is to
print up guidelines on how folks could research and document their gear and
clothing.  Maybe give a few of the better known and more reliable sources.
Get people started in doing living history and enjoying it all around.
Besides, you can give as many disclamors as you want but you will end up with
a whole new crop of folks all looking the same and toting the same stuff.

The reason I say this is b/c getting started a couple years back in living
history, I had a lot of people give me good advice.  Some of it was how to
research and document.  Other advice was what to do, what to get and how.
The prior was and is, by far, the best I got...keeps me digging...keeps info
flowing...keeps us all in new info.

For what it is worth,

-C.Kent

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 13 Nov 2001 21:30:03 EST


In a message dated 11/14/1 12:44:34 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<we need to keep it short (low
attention span) It should be only a couple of pages as a hand out>>

Ole
Right now it is really short.  No response - not even to expand the list of
subjects.  And you are right . . . it should be short, but not this short.
Once/if we ever get good material to work with (and I am/was expecting
duplication), it  will be manucured to a size and format most appropriate.

How about it?  Anyone out there want to risk it??

Dick James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 13 Nov 2001 21:47:14 EST


In a message dated 11/14/1 1:53:35 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<By the way..  what was the seminar you attended with Fred? and why didn't
you tell us ?
>>

Todd  --  the symposium was by invitation only.  It was at the Heritage
Center where the Festival of the American West is held each year.  They have
taken initial steps to prepare the Indian area and now are looking at a
future fur trade area.  This is an internal working of the American West
Heritage Center and I had nothing to do but listen and input when asked.
Again it was their party and by invitation only.  Looking forward to a future
situation that is keyed to AMM principles and give nudges where I can is the
best I can offer for now.  Look at the past, though:  first rendezvous since
1840 held 1973 at Fort Bridger,  Reburial of John Johnston in Cody - 1974,
First rendezvous on Henry's Fork of the Green since 1825 held 1974 & 5.
First Rendezvous in Cache Valley since 1826 held 1976, First gathering of
mountain men at Fort Buena Ventura since 1847 ( winter camp  --  before the
fort was re-built) . . . .  All these things and more were carried out by
AMM.  There are a couple more in the wind right now that I know, of and a
bunch I have never heard about yet.

Cheers
Dick James



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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 13 Nov 2001 20:45:56 -0700

At 07:19 AM 11/13/2001 -0700, you wrote:
Ole wrote:
>I would suggest that we describe a Mountain Man about 1830 to 1835 and his
>gear. We also need to describe a long hunter 1765 to 1775 with his gear.
>There are others but I can't think of them.

Well, since it's a rendezvous, wouldn't the rendezvous period, 1825-1840 be
appropriate?

And, oh boy, this one will get fun in a hurry!


Allen
Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country


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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Block print calicoes
Date: 14 Nov 2001 03:50:18 +0000

Howdy friends,
  I swear I'm not getting any kickbacks, but I saw this stuff at a
re-enactment and thought you all might be interested. These people research
fur trade calico prints and duplicate them by hand cutting the different
blocks and printing them by hand. They showed me their documentation on the
different patterns and I was impressed. I hope you will be too. I've never
seen anything like it worn at any events before.
   check this out:
     www.whitefoxtrading.com
Your friend in the Ohio Country,
Don Secondine

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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 13 Nov 2001 14:19:15 -0700

Please don't forget to have some guidelines on women's dress. It would be a
real pity to leave the women in the dark. My first thought: *NO BODICES*.

In haste,
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions
Date: 13 Nov 2001 20:33:5 -0800




> [Original Message]
> From: Randal Bublitz <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
 > Date: 11/13/01 6:25:20 PM
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs.
Directions
>
> C.Kent,         You have made a brilliant comment.  "Give a man a fish
and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish....."  pardon the analogy.
hardtack
>
>
> > One thought, and others please respond with your thoughts on the issue,
is to
> > print up guidelines on how folks could research and document their gear
and
> > clothing.  Maybe give a few of the better known and more reliable
sources.
> > Get people started in doing living history and enjoying it all around.
> > Besides, you can give as many disclamors as you want but you will end
up with
> > a whole new crop of folks all looking the same and toting the same
stuff.
> >
> >
> > -C.Kent
>
>
> --- Randal Bublitz
> --- [e-mail]
> We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it f


--- Randal Bublitz
--- [e-mail]
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing


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From: "Lee Newbill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Block print calicoes
Date: 13 Nov 2001 20:36:10 -0800

I dunno Don.  I know you was trying to be helpful and all, but when I showed
my wife that website, she pushed me off the computer and starting figgering
how much of MY money she could spend.  How am I supposed to get important
stuff like 'nother pack horse this spring if'n she spends all my hay money
on frillies??  You ain't no help t'all.

With tounge firmly in cheek... they've really got some nice material.

Lee Newbill of N. Idaho


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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Block print calicoes
Date: 14 Nov 2001 04:45:29 +0000

Yep Lee,
  But, ya know what they say about keeping the cook happy! We all stay
happy. Glad ya'll enjoyed the sight.
Your friend,
Don



>From: "Lee Newbill" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Block print calicoes
>Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:36:10 -0800
>
>I dunno Don.  I know you was trying to be helpful and all, but when I
>showed
>my wife that website, she pushed me off the computer and starting figgering
>how much of MY money she could spend.  How am I supposed to get important
>stuff like 'nother pack horse this spring if'n she spends all my hay money
>on frillies??  You ain't no help t'all.
>
>With tounge firmly in cheek... they've really got some nice material.
>
>Lee Newbill of N. Idaho
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Block print calicoes
Date: 14 Nov 2001 00:52:56 EST

Thanks for the site, Don. I just sent em $2 for some samples to see if
they're as good as they look. Hard to find good linen....

Magpie

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 14 Nov 2001 07:46:12 -0700

Allen,
What I was thinking is this. As visitors come through they are handed this
two page flyer that simply describes a Mountain Man from the 1830's, his
wepons, clothes, and a description of those things that he didn't wear. The
same thing for the Long Hunter. A drawing of what is correct on each page
should be added, this would include the ladies.
I would also write a book similar to the books of Buckskining using the
combined AMM knowledge and resources and sell it to make money for the land.
I have noticed that a lot of the people writing articles for those book's
are  members of the AMM.
Ole
----------
>From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
>Date: Tue, Nov 13, 2001, 8:45 PM
>

>At 07:19 AM 11/13/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Ole wrote:
>>I would suggest that we describe a Mountain Man about 1830 to 1835 and his
>>gear. We also need to describe a long hunter 1765 to 1775 with his gear.
>>There are others but I can't think of them.
>
>Well, since it's a rendezvous, wouldn't the rendezvous period, 1825-1840 be
>appropriate?
>
>And, oh boy, this one will get fun in a hurry!
>
>
>Allen
>Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 14 Nov 2001 07:48:20 -0700

Angela,
Go for it, who would be better than you.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
>Date: Tue, Nov 13, 2001, 2:19 PM
>

>Please don't forget to have some guidelines on women's dress. It would be a
>real pity to leave the women in the dark. My first thought: *NO BODICES*.
>
>In haste,
>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 15 Nov 2001 00:15:38 EST


In a message dated 11/14/1 4:46:11 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Well, since it's a rendezvous, wouldn't the rendezvous period, 1825-1840 be
appropriate? >>

Alan

 I believe it was you that first kicked the top off this ant hill.  Any and
all negatives I assigne to you.

Now -
Since this is not exclusivly for AMM rendevous ( and they go back before 1825
in personna) it is more information for the "fur trade" era with
concentration on Lewis & Clark through the end of the rendezvous period.  I
personally feel that much of what was exhibited in the early 1800s was  still
the stuff the 1700s was made of (was/were - I debated that one. WAS -
singular).  Saying then that guns, fabrics, tailoring of 1790 were virtually
the same in 1822.   Narrow falls of 1770 were still worn in the 1800s, but
broadfalls introduced about 1800 were not in-sie in 1750 - or 1880.

Nit picking aside. . . . This is direction intended to help the interested,
uninitiated, and unschooled come up with an outfit that will not be an embara
ssment to the rest of the camp as it should be to that green-horn.
Application here of the KISS principle.

With that said, and realizing all input will be catagorized and juried . . .
what have ye to say?  includeing broadening of the list I advanced??

Dick James

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 15 Nov 2001 00:17:54 EST


In a message dated 11/14/1 5:24:25 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Please don't forget to have some guidelines on women's dress. It would be a
real pity to leave the women in the dark. My first thought: *NO BODICES*.
>>

First off:  What women?

Richard James

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions
Date: 15 Nov 2001 00:21:21 EST


In a message dated 11/14/1 5:32:52 AM, [e-mail] writes:

    "One thought, and others please respond with your thoughts on the issue,
is to  print up guidelines on how folks could research and document their
gear and  clothing.  Maybe give a few of the better known and more reliable
sources.  "

And for the following items, the bibliographies are . . . . ."

Richard James


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 15 Nov 2001 00:30:30 EST

Ole
    Have you noticed that the actual contributions has totaled ZIP?  Everyone
has an opinion on how it should be handled but no one wants to risk a
contribution.  It was a good idea  in the "what we otta do" state, but no one
actually wants to get involved.  In other words "someone has got to go get
some wood or we are going to freeze" (this is a direct quote from Brian Keith
in personal conversation during the night rendezvous shooting). . .  but I
don't see anyone on their way to do any gathering.

Cheers
Dick

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Terrance Luff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: your flyer on dress
Date: 15 Nov 2001 03:06:33 -0700

HO CAMP!
  it as been a while,day light hours are gettin short so have to migrat
to by in door metis camp . HO OLD FOX! you can camp in my camp any time
sorry, i wanted to talk more but i was a hurting unit at that time.
  ho all you old timers and new, on your dress talk, the hiverant metis
newsletter has done that exat thing, only on dress of the different band
of metis. this includeds women and child and different levels of the men in
the fur trade . hunter,trader,trapper, vog, ect.  (what women?)
the metis family went with camp ether hudson bay or N.W.  IF'EN' you would
like to se examples. get a hold of me and i will try a fax some.
the research for the metis camp starts at end of 1700,s threw 1800"s
  my personal interst runs for cart metis dress 1820 to 1860. the AMM is not
the only people that have done research,so, La Moonous maybe you should have
mor then one view piont. willing to put a few cents in,just send some somk.
For hikingonthrew-if you are interrested,i sweat and talk with our cut
finger reg. leader,all summer, ask away.
                                  bon jour mon amie
                                  ponyrider

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 15 Nov 2001 07:43:32 -0700

Dick,
To make things simple, I would use sketches that show before and after
drawings with simple discriptions writen next to them. Fort Bridger ranges
in period's from 1600 to 1880 with the majority being Mountain Man followed
by Long Hunter. The exagerated cartoon is funny without being insulting or
confrontational but will still teach the point. I fear that we will tend to
write a manual that no one will open except the people who put it together
and we will not achive the education of the great unwashed.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
>Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001, 10:15 PM
>

>
>In a message dated 11/14/1 4:46:11 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><<Well, since it's a rendezvous, wouldn't the rendezvous period, 1825-1840 be
>appropriate? >>
>
>Alan
>
> I believe it was you that first kicked the top off this ant hill.  Any and
>all negatives I assigne to you.
>
>Now -
>Since this is not exclusivly for AMM rendevous ( and they go back before 1825
>in personna) it is more information for the "fur trade" era with
>concentration on Lewis & Clark through the end of the rendezvous period.  I
>personally feel that much of what was exhibited in the early 1800s was  still
>the stuff the 1700s was made of (was/were - I debated that one. WAS -
>singular).  Saying then that guns, fabrics, tailoring of 1790 were virtually
>the same in 1822.   Narrow falls of 1770 were still worn in the 1800s, but
>broadfalls introduced about 1800 were not in-sie in 1750 - or 1880.
>
>Nit picking aside. . . . This is direction intended to help the interested,
>uninitiated, and unschooled come up with an outfit that will not be an embara
>ssment to the rest of the camp as it should be to that green-horn.
>Application here of the KISS principle.
>
>With that said, and realizing all input will be catagorized and juried . . .
>what have ye to say?  includeing broadening of the list I advanced??
>
>Dick James
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

----------------------
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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 15 Nov 2001 07:47:18 -0700

Dick,
To use youre words, Fort Bridger cover moore than the Mountain Man era. Them
litle indian children had mothers, Mexican mom's etc. etc.
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
>Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001, 10:17 PM
>

>
>In a message dated 11/14/1 5:24:25 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><<Please don't forget to have some guidelines on women's dress. It would be a
>real pity to leave the women in the dark. My first thought: *NO BODICES*.
>>>
>
>First off:  What women?
>
>Richard James
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

----------------------
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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 15 Nov 2001 07:49:52 -0700

Dick,
I thought you were doing it! with help from others? do we have a good artist
listening to this conversation?
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
>Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001, 10:30 PM
>

>Ole
>    Have you noticed that the actual contributions has totaled ZIP?  Everyone
>has an opinion on how it should be handled but no one wants to risk a
>contribution.  It was a good idea  in the "what we otta do" state, but no one
>actually wants to get involved.  In other words "someone has got to go get
>some wood or we are going to freeze" (this is a direct quote from Brian Keith
>in personal conversation during the night rendezvous shooting). . .  but I
>don't see anyone on their way to do any gathering.
>
>Cheers
>Dick
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions
Date: 15 Nov 2001 12:17:13 EST

In a message dated 11/15/01 12:23:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< And for the following items, the bibliographies are . . . . ."
  >>
That could be where member input comes in...so far I have heard people input
lots of good info on what to put in and more than a couple "but don't forget
this..." and "let's remember that..."  Has all the makings of a "how-to" book
of dressing up like a mtn.man or associated fur trade persona.

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions
Date: 15 Nov 2001 12:33:20 EST


In a message dated 11/15/1 6:19:42 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<That could be where member input comes in...so far I have heard people
input
lots of good info on what to put in and more than a couple "but don't forget
this..." and "let's remember that...>>

Now then, what is your"member input"? . . . . specifically?  Guns? Patterns?
Camp Gear?  Take your pick and let the games begin.

Richard James

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 15 Nov 2001 12:38:16 EST


In a message dated 11/15/1 3:48:33 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I would use sketches that show before and after drawings with simple
discriptions writen next to them>>

Ole:

Sketches of . . . .?
Descriptions of  . . . .?
Drawn by whom?

Based on the input to date we have a stick figure standing in the sun.

Dick James

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 15 Nov 2001 12:54:03 EST


In a message dated 11/15/1 3:52:01 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<To use youre words, Fort Bridger cover moore than the Mountain Man era. Them
litle indian children had mothers, Mexican mom's etc. etc.>>

Ole
I am misquoted.  My statement was about the FUR TRADE period.  The Mountan
Man era is not defined and is a modern term.  Before Ashley there were
families established in the regions of the Northwest Company where the mother
was native American and the father was Euro-American.  This established
pattern continued with U.S. based fur traders in the Upper Missouri and Rocky
Mountains.  Trapper/traders out of the Santa Fe / Taos area had Hispanic or
Indian/Hispanic wives and mothers.  On that we can easily agree.  Now back to
our project . . . .

I furnished a token list of items appropriate for the living estate of a
trapper/trader during the rendezvous and pre-rendezvous period.  It is
open-ended and I asked anyone who wished to add to the list.  I also asked
for specifics to describe and re-create these items.  The purpose was to help
persons who wanted to get involved or those who think they are involved but
are an embarassment to us all.   Where on the list would you like to begin
sharing instructions?  Tenting? Bedding?  Leather?  Pick a number and get in
line.  Right now the line is extremely short.

Richard James

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 15 Nov 2001 13:01:28 EST


In a message dated 11/15/1 3:54:00 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< do we have a good artist listening to this conversation?>>
If we do he is being very silent about it.  I don't blame him.  There is
nothing on this slate for him to draw.

Re-read, Ole.  I offered to compile, edit, consult, and prepare a final
draught (or draughts as this project lends itself to several purposes on
several different levels).  The original idea is not mine.  I believe it is
Alan's with your endorsement.  Nothing was happening so I made an offer to
get it off dead center.  I went for wood.  Anyone else want to go get some?
or does everyone just have a plan to tell as yet un-named persons where to go
and how to gather . . . but hurry.

Dick


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: your flyer on dress
Date: 15 Nov 2001 13:10:00 EST


In a message dated 11/15/1 11:09:04 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< on your dress talk, the hiverant metis
newsletter has done that exat thing, only on dress of the different band
of metis. this includeds women and child and different levels of the men in
the fur trade . hunter,trader,trapper, vog, ect.  (what women?)
the metis family went with camp ether hudson bay or N.W. >>

et bon jour a vous ausi, mon ami

    C'est bon.  Continue, s'il vous plait.  Let it begin with you.  The
distaff side seems to be best represented in the western fur trade when we
research the Northwest Fur Company before and after their merger (under
protest) with HBC.  Please share with us as much information as you will on
this subject.

Sincerely
Richard James

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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Laura's address
Date: 15 Nov 2001 18:31:46 -0500

Victoria... I had a computer HD crash and lost Laura's address that you sent
me.  Can you please resend it to me at [e-mail] so I can send
her the Friendship Bead.

Thanks...

Ad


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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides
Date: 15 Nov 2001 18:19:39 -0700

My first bibliography would be Osborn Russell.  He pretty accurately
describes his gear and that of his companions.

Allen

At 12:21 AM 11/15/2001 EST, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 11/14/1 5:32:52 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
>    "One thought, and others please respond with your thoughts on the issue,
>is to  print up guidelines on how folks could research and document their
>gear and  clothing.  Maybe give a few of the better known and more reliable
>sources.  "
>
>And for the following items, the bibliographies are . . . . ."
>
>Richard James
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Laura's address
Date: 15 Nov 2001 20:00:37 -0600

Ad
I ain't Victoria, but here is Laura's address.
Lanney

Laura Glise
3841 Prestwick Lane SE
Olympia, WA  98501




----- Original Message -----


> Victoria... I had a computer HD crash and lost Laura's address that you
sent
> me.  Can you please resend it to me at [e-mail] so I can send
> her the Friendship Bead.
>
> Thanks...
>
> Ad
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions
Date: 15 Nov 2001 21:05:33 EST

In a message dated 11/15/01 12:35:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Now then, what is your"member input"? . . . . specifically?  Guns?
Patterns?
 Camp Gear?  Take your pick and let the games begin.
  >>
Maybe each person who desires to input could submit their method of
researching a fact or idea regarding their chosen persona and era.  I.E - How
to start, what resources they use (library of congress, internet), etc.  AND
maybe submit one or two texts they have found to be very useful.

For me I follow the following pattern

1.  Do a broad internet search...BUT use info only as a general lead. NEVER
as fact.
    Look primarily at historical documents or accounts and search the
bibliography of those accounts for related literature

2.  Follow up at the local library (-ies) and look up the articles, books,
names, places, events, etc. found during the internet search.  If not
available, use interlibrary loan.

3. Consult the library of congress archives for actual journals or historical
documents.

4.  I use a rule of at least 3 different sources documenting the same
thing...with none of them quoting any of the other sources for their info.
I.E. - May look at Miller sketches for ideas of fur trade clothing and items
while being sure a book does not use the same sketches as its source.  OR
when trying to find a correct pattern for a fur cap, learning from 3+
resources there was really no particular pattern followed but that was left
up to the creativity of the person crafting the fur hat...or the trapper
being more likely to have a felt hat and such.

That is an example of what I am speaking of and my ltd. input

-C.Kent

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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Trigger finger?
Date: 16 Nov 2001 02:19:30 +0000

Howdy Cap'n and list members,
  Cap'n, don't keep us in suspense any longer than you have to. Did ya make
meat and did your banged up finger work when ya needed to pull the trigger
on Ole Charcoal Burner? I for one would like to here the yarn as soon as you
can get your pipe lit.
Your friend,
Don Secondine

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions
Date: 15 Nov 2001 21:59:58 EST


In a message dated 11/16/1 2:19:39 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<My first bibliography would be Osborn Russell.  He pretty accurately
describes his gear and that of his companions.
>>

Now there is a start!  What items would you like to reference from his
writings?

RJames

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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trigger finger?
Date: 15 Nov 2001 20:01:10 -0800

Don,

Thanks for the interest but no yarns from this camp tonight. I did get a
shot at a Blue Grouse with my pistola but missed. I know, I know, "he never
misses". That's just a rumor spread about to throw my enemies into
confusion! <G>

We only had yesterday to hunt of course since it was the last day. Stumpy
put me up on the side of the ridge and invited me to side hill to the south
as he side hilled just below me. After about 3 hours of intermittent rain I
finally gave up and started working my way back down off the mountain side.
Just short of the road in, I did walk up on a couple mule deer does but no
elk. Back at the truck, Stumpy shared his experiences. He had a couple three
elk run down the hill past him about 40 yards but he was not quite in
position to see them so didn't get a shot.

We went back to his place down on the N. Fork and had lunch then took our
smooth bores across the road and up a canyon that he had walked up the day
before. This time we looked for grouse, probably ruff grouse down that low.
It was late in the afternoon by then and it is getting dark early these
days. About a mile up the canyon I spoted another mule deer doe up on the
hill side about 75 yards and she presented an easy target, even for a smooth
bore, but mule deer is not open. I got nervous that we would walk around a
corner and spot an elk so I stopped and quickly pulled the shot load out and
put a prepatched ball down on the cushion wad instead.

We continued to walk up the canyon bottom not seeing any grouse or elk until
it got so dark that I figured we would not be able to be sure what we were
firing at if we did see game so at that point we turned back down. Almost
all the way back to the main road I looked down at the trail watching my
footing in the growing gloom and spotted tracks across the old road that
hadn't been there on our way up. Stumpy bent down, put his hands in the
tracks (too dark to see anything but dark disturbed ground) and said, "Yep,
elk tracks". We heard a noise just behind an alder thicket in the creek just
a few score yards away and figured it was our night stalker elk. Either a
cow or more likely the 6 point that Stumpy says has been hanging down in the
main canyon bottom with his harem of 6-8 mule deer does. Anyway, we couldn't
see anything and continued on back to camp. We visited some for a bit and
then I drove back to Kennewick just glad that I had finally made it into the
woods one more time.

So not much of a yarn to spin, is it?! <G> Next week my old buddy Clawpapa
and I will head over to the Palouse country and try for whitetail and
perhaps a few pheasants. Maybe even ambush one of the few wheat field elk
they have running around just north of the Snake R. Funny thing. There
weren't any elk there when Captains Lewis and Clark came through. Just Nes
Pierce eating salmon.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trigger finger?
Date: 15 Nov 2001 23:10:50 -0500

But Capt... what DID you do to your finger??  That has got to be a good
story...

Ad


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions
Date: 15 Nov 2001 23:20:44 EST


In a message dated 11/16/1 3:07:37 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Maybe each person who desires to input could submit their method of
researching a fact or idea regarding their chosen persona and era.  I.E - How
to start, what resources they use (library of congress, internet), etc.  AND
maybe submit one or two texts they have found to be very useful.

For me I follow the following pattern

1.  Do a broad internet search...BUT use info only as a general lead. NEVER
as fact.
    Look primarily at historical documents or accounts and search the
bibliography of those accounts for related literature . . . .(and more).
>>

Brother:
Thank you for your input.  This is the kind of research I have been doing for
over half a century, but this is not MY document . . . it is supposed to be a
compilation of materials from AMM brothers.  This was the original
suggestion.  My involvement is that I offered to compile, sort, and edit what
offerings were submitted.  My experience with AMM (nearly 30 years) is that of
 one person helping another who has become excited about the history of the
fur trade as it relates to our AMM activities.  Similarly,  when I started
the Fort Bridger Rendezvous - it was supported for the most part by AMM
brothers.  This is where I first met Walt Hayward and Archie face to face.
This open gathering has attracted the curious and involved the more serious
ever since 1973.  Lets face it - this was the first national invitational
rendezvous and from this the rendezvous idea has spread throughout the world.
 Now it has come to a time when a group of AMM brothers have taken it upon
themselves to set up a "proper for the period" camp to show correctness in
the midst of considerable incorrectness.  It was suggested that since
everyone who enters the Fort on Labor Day Weekend receives a free tabloid
pass-out, it would be very beneficial to include some guidelines on research
correctness in the publication.  Credit would go to AMM and we would very
likely pick up some quality next-generation members as a bonus.  Now I have
suggested to the governing board that we (AMM members) could do this.  They
were receptive.  I offered to come up with a product based on AMM input.
There are other, expanded possible spin-offs that could come from this, but
not unless members come up with some specifics.  I hope you can see where
this is coming from.  If I wanted to do it myself - and someday I may - I
will do for myself, publish it and harvest the income from it.  For the time
being, though, the window is open to the brothers to incrementally produce
this original document by their specific-item contributions.  I presumed
everyone had read the original messages last september when this egg first
began to hatch.  I further seemed to sense some enthusiasm for the project,
so when nothing was happening I volunteered.  I have been wrong about so many
things in life, it would not be a surprise to know it has happened again.

Most Sincerely
Dick James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: your flyer on dress
Date: 16 Nov 2001 00:37:03 EST

[e-mail] writes:
>   it as been a while,day light hours are gettin short so have to migrat
>  to by in door metis camp . HO OLD FOX! you can camp in my camp any time
>  sorry, i wanted to talk more but i was a hurting unit at that time.

HO TERRY......
Glad your back on your feet.  Hope that back is better now.  Hefting those
250 lb cart wheels by yourself takes a toll on an old man.

I made a trip from Illinois to Washington and points in between this summer
and was fortunate enough to be able to stop along the way and meet new old
friends.  Among them were Capt. Lahti, Walt Foster and Terry.  I spent a
couple of days at the Clark's Fork Rendezvous and shared a camp with Terry.
We spent a couple of evenings talking long into the nite about the area.

Funny how you have preset notions about folks that change when you meet them
in person.  While they may have trouble communicating their knowledge with
these blasted contraptions, both Walt and Terry are treasure troves of
valuable information about the Clark's Fork area and the Metis.

I have pictures of the infamous Metis Red River Cart that Terry lugs around
with him and the camp where the Lewis and Clark expedition spent 8 days at
the juncture of the Yellowstone and Clark's Fork.  They are in paper format,
but will post them once they are digitized if anyone is interested.  Also a
picture of my diamond, which looks like a beetle setting next to those
monster rigs you Westerners haul around with you.

OldFox

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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trigger finger?
Date: 15 Nov 2001 21:55:17 -0800

Cut it.


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 8:10 PM


> But Capt... what DID you do to your finger??  That has got to be a good
> story...
>
> Ad
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hodgdon "Eats" CleanShot
Date: 16 Nov 2001 02:26:24 -0500

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A press release arrived today from Hodgdon's attorney
Doug Delsemme.  List subscribers may find it
intereesting, so here it is verbatim:

"Florida Jury "Smokes" Clean Shot Technologies:

"A Federal Court jury in West Palm Beach, Florida on
Monday, November 5, 2001 unanimously handed down a
verdict in Favor of Hodgdon Powder Company, Inc. and
against Clean Shot Technologies, and awarded Hodgdon
damages in the sum of $1,014,660.

"The jury rejected all of Clean Shot's claims that the
Hodgdon patent was not valid, Including evidence of
products claimed to have been made by the long defunct
Golden Powder Company.  The jury unanimously found
that Clean Shot had willfully infringed Hodgdon's
Pyrodex Pellet patent by copying and selling
palletized(sic) powder known as "Quick Shots."  An
injunction prohibiting further production and sale of
the Clean Shot pellets is anticipated.

"Hodgdon will also file a post trial motion asking the
Judge to increase damages up to three times based on
the jury's finding of willfulness."


...This tends to explain why Hodgdon's said recently
they may be coming out with a new, non-sulfer powder.
Truly, a golden opportunity........

- --
"...the system (Microsoft passport) carries significant risks to users
that are not made adequately clear in the technical documentation
available." - David P. Kormann and Aviel D. Rubin, AT&T Labs - Research
- - - http://www.avirubin.com/passport

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3in
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBO/S/oJPpefykTPP7AQF/WwQAlvpqrf8zsArIC/4aY34GPQffIovvdXpw
E1M/g8etcSkIeQMSUJIW5tdlroZgK3gAJq6suo9U99IHfisO6B4N0R6cG+2kxNe4
Dqmcr9N0mY8SzUPV05kFDPSZZMaa/Blc3MK8DGCdcWm47lXM78u45uUUpTyD/YOr
RL/Hc+ad2WI=
=mSlG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 13 Nov 2001 19:20:26 -0600

NM
I usto have the same problem you speak of of having to get the oil off
steel befor i brown it---now using a old original recipee for browning
that does not require cleaming---best browing i ever saw and undoubitedly
the easiest to use ---it is the same formula as the one used by
parker---check out angers book on browning solutions it is in
there---easy to mix and takes 3 to 4 days to get the total finish---wipe
on one day---let set overnight---card surface wipe on coat second day let
set overnight---card surface apply third coat and the next day card and
if you have the consistancy you want then kill the action with bakon soda
and water---if not recoat and let set over night---this formula gives a
black brown same as on the old damascus and parker guns and guns of that
time period---works great---its in angers book as parkers browning
solution---


"HAWK"
Michael Pierce        Home of "Old Grizz Products"  & "the Arkansas Under
Hammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684  Phone:[phone]
e-mail:  [e-mail]  web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

On Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:49:31 EST [e-mail] writes:
> In a message dated 11/12/01 3:30:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> << Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish.  In
> fact
>  the
>  browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish.
> >>
>
> What's even more important than the finish is getting ALL oil &
> grease off
> the surface before applying the browning solution.  111
> Triclorethylene used
> to do a GREAT job, but it's no longer available.  I've found that
> hanging the
> part then flooding the surface with automotive aerosol brake cleaner
> or carb
> cleaner works well.  Once the surface is clean, DON'T TOUCH IT until
> it's
> browned.  If you MUST hold it with something to stabilize it while
> applying
> the browning solution, clean a pair of pliers or a "C" clamp with
> brake
> cleaner & use it or use a paper towel to grip the part with.  If
> your surface
> develops spots where the browning doesn't "take" spray the part down
> again &
> apply more browning solution.  As with all chemicals, use only in a
> well
> ventilated area!
>
> NM
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Netbusiness Experts
Date: 16 Nov 2001 05:58:33 -0800 (PST)

--2520055.1005919113748.JavaMail.root.sbz-s32.websys.aol.com
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Your friend, [e-mail], thought you would be interested in this article from http://netbusiness.netscape.com. Click on the link below to read the article, or copy and paste it into a new browser window.<br><br>Your friend's message:<br>Thought this might interest the list!
                                                       YMOS
                                                    M.A Smith
                                            Somerset Co.,Maryland
                                              on the Barren Creek  <br><br>-----------------------<br><br>Netbusiness Experts<br>By FSB<br><br><a href=http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb_nb/features/sp_f_111601>http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb_nb/features/sp_f_111601</a><br><br>-----------------------<br>Fri Nov 16 05:58:33 PST 2001<br><br>
--2520055.1005919113748.JavaMail.root.sbz-s32.websys.aol.com--


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 16 Nov 2001 07:56:13 -0700

Dick,
If I misquoted you I apoloqize! this light harted discussion is turning into
a pissing contest.
Don't know why this happans over and over again. I had the misconseption
that we were trying to inform the public to what was correct, to do that in
a news paper or hand out it must be short and to the point. If not it will
just line the nearest trash can.
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
>Date: Thu, Nov 15, 2001, 10:54 AM
>

>
>In a message dated 11/15/1 3:52:01 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><<To use youre words, Fort Bridger cover moore than the Mountain Man era. Them
>litle indian children had mothers, Mexican mom's etc. etc.>>
>
>Ole
>I am misquoted.  My statement was about the FUR TRADE period.  The Mountan
>Man era is not defined and is a modern term.  Before Ashley there were
>families established in the regions of the Northwest Company where the mother
>was native American and the father was Euro-American.  This established
>pattern continued with U.S. based fur traders in the Upper Missouri and Rocky
>Mountains.  Trapper/traders out of the Santa Fe / Taos area had Hispanic or
>Indian/Hispanic wives and mothers.  On that we can easily agree.  Now back to
>our project . . . .
>
>I furnished a token list of items appropriate for the living estate of a
>trapper/trader during the rendezvous and pre-rendezvous period.  It is
>open-ended and I asked anyone who wished to add to the list.  I also asked
>for specifics to describe and re-create these items.  The purpose was to help
>persons who wanted to get involved or those who think they are involved but
>are an embarassment to us all.   Where on the list would you like to begin
>sharing instructions?  Tenting? Bedding?  Leather?  Pick a number and get in
>line.  Right now the line is extremely short.
>
>Richard James
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 16 Nov 2001 07:42:44 -0700

Dick,
If I were an artist I would gladly do it. It is starting to sound like an
instruction manual is what everyone is interested in so I will bow out and
let others do what they like.
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
>Date: Thu, Nov 15, 2001, 10:38 AM
>

>
>In a message dated 11/15/1 3:48:33 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><< I would use sketches that show before and after drawings with simple
>discriptions writen next to them>>
>
>Ole:
>
>Sketches of . . . .?
>Descriptions of  . . . .?
>Drawn by whom?
>
>Based on the input to date we have a stick figure standing in the sun.
>
>Dick James
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trigger finger?
Date: 16 Nov 2001 16:50:23 EST

Hey Cap'n
    Would you mind contacting me offline about your hunt?  Sounds like you're
traipsing around my old neck of the woods.


Sleeps Loudly
Wade Smith
Boise Id

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 16 Nov 2001 16:50:34 EST

In a message dated 11/16/01 5:50:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< --check out angers book on browning solutions it is in
 there---easy to mix and takes 3 to 4 days to get the total finish-- >>

Will have to look for that.  I've been using Wahkon Bay's "True Brown" with
good results IF I get the surfaces clean.  I'm not sure the mix you mention
will work for me though -- you have all that nice salt air & humidity down
there in Florida.  Things work a WHOLE lot differently here in the Nevada
desert!  I know -- sweat box -- but the only time I tried that I wound up
with a real mess!  Since I'm usually just doing my own stuff, I just wait &
do all my browning in July & August out in the shop with the "swamp cooler"
blowing on the parts.  With the evaporative cooler, I can get the humidity up
to about 50% & coupled with the inside shop day time temp of 100 - 105, it
works.  By applying the solution every 12 hrs & NOT carding until the last
day, I get what I want in about 4 days.

NM

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From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 16 Nov 2001 16:40:37 -0700

Just a comment,
Nothing wrong with Wakon Bay True Brown,  but I will
guarantee that not carding after each application will cause
a very coarse grainy final finish.  Humidity and time plays a
roll in how coarse and grainy.  Browning used that grainy matte
finish on some of their J M  Browning Mtn. Rifles but  public
demand changed their thinking.  I personally favor a smoother
less grainy finish, therefore card after each application .  Carding
is another can of worms,  I use a soft steel wire brush for most
things,  steel wool on the other hand is used  by many, as it come
from the hard ware store it has an oil  anti rust preservative that
forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to prevent
contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to brown.
        Just for kicks, apply  the Wakon Bay solution to a part
such as a lock plate or trigger guard,  let it sit until the scale builds
up to the normal carding point,  then toss it into a container of
hot near to boiling water for a few minutes,  take the part out
(the heat will dry it very quickly)  and card.  Walla, you will
have the prettiest rust blue you can imagine.  Additional
applications makes for a deeper blue that matches many of
the old firearm factory  blue  finishes.
          Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid
effect,  I  heat the barrel or let it sit in the sun until it is almost
to hot to handle, then smear on a coat of boiled linseed.  Let
it sit for an hour or so then wipe off the excess oil.  According
to Bivens this is what a lot of the old builders did, and has
worked for me for 40 years or so.
        My comments here are not to tell anyone how they
should do things, but to give a bit more information so they
can decide for themselves how they want to do things.
I use these techniques  mentioned to do museum firearm
restorations.  They Work.  (By the way, Coleman fuel
used in a safe environment, is an excellent degreaser.)

Respectfully,
Old Coyote



> << --check out angers book on browning solutions it is in
>  there---easy to mix and takes 3 to 4 days to get the total finish--
> >>
>
> Will have to look for that.  I've been using Wahkon Bay's "True
> Brown" with
> good results IF I get the surfaces clean.  I'm not sure the mix you
> mention
> will work for me though -- you have all that nice salt air &
> humidity down
> there in Florida.  Things work a WHOLE lot differently here in the
> Nevada
> desert!  I know -- sweat box -- but the only time I tried that I
> wound up
> with a real mess!  Since I'm usually just doing my own stuff, I just
> wait &
> do all my browning in July & August out in the shop with the "swamp
> cooler"
> blowing on the parts.  With the evaporative cooler, I can get the
> humidity up
> to about 50% & coupled with the inside shop day time temp of 100 -
> 105, it
> works.  By applying the solution every 12 hrs & NOT carding until
> the last
> day, I get what I want in about 4 days.
>
> NM
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes
Date: 16 Nov 2001 19:05:41 -0700

At 09:59 PM 11/15/2001 EST, you wrote:

>Now there is a start!  What items would you like to reference from his
>writings?
>
>RJames

Pg. 82.  "A Trappers equipment in such cases is generally one Animal upon
which is placed one or two Epishemores a riding Saddle and bridle a sack
containing six Beaver traps a blanket with an extra pair of Mocasins his
powder horn and bullet pouch with a belt to which is attached a butcher
Knife a small wooden box containing bait for Beaver a Tobacco sack with a
pipe and implements for making fire with sometimes a hatchet fastened to the
Pommel of his saddle his personal dress is a flannel or cotton shirt (if he
is fortunate enough to obtain one, if not Antelope skin answers the purpose
of over and under shirt) a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or Buffaloe
robe a hat or Cap of wool, Buffaloe or Otter skin his hose are pieces of
Blanket lapped round his feet which are covered with a pair of Moccassins
made of Dressed Deer Elk or Buffaloe skins with his long hair falling
loosely over his shoulders completes his uniform."

Allen


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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes
Date: 16 Nov 2001 18:46:12 -0800

Allen, Do you suppose the "breeches" were knee breeches?  Or, did he mean
pants as we know them?  or, do suppose the word may have been all
inclusive?

 a pair of leather breeches


--- Randal Bublitz
--- [e-mail]
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from
our Children



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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes
Date: 16 Nov 2001 20:37:08 -0700

At 06:46 PM 11/16/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Allen, Do you suppose the "breeches" were knee breeches?  Or, did he mean
>pants as we know them?  or, do suppose the word may have been all
>inclusive?
>
> a pair of leather breeches
>
>
>--- Randal Bublitz

Randy,

Don't know.   Could be either/both.  I know when I was growing up there was
an expression that someone was "getting too big for their britches" so the
terms is still around....

Allen


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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 16 Nov 2001 20:39:26 -0700

At 12:30 AM 11/15/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Ole
>    Have you noticed that the actual contributions has totaled ZIP?  Everyone
>has an opinion on how it should be handled but no one wants to risk a
>contribution.  It was a good idea  in the "what we otta do" state, but no one
>actually wants to get involved.  In other words "someone has got to go get
>some wood or we are going to freeze" (this is a direct quote from Brian Keith
>in personal conversation during the night rendezvous shooting). . .  but I
>don't see anyone on their way to do any gathering.
>
>Cheers
>Dick

Also consider that a bunch of us have been doing the primitive
demonstrations at Bridger for the past 3 years, and will be next year as
well........all the things you are looking for are discussed and
demonstrated there.

Allen


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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes
Date: 16 Nov 2001 22:41:27 -0600

The following is the description of breeches found in the 1828 Webster's
dictionary.  It might help settle the question.  Sounds like short pants to
me.  Notice the pronunciation.......rhymes with "itches" not "leeches".  No
entry is found for "britches".  I found no entry for laxoe braccoe or
braccoe in the 1828 dictionary or a modern edition.
YMOS
Lanney

BREECHES, n.  plu. brich'es. [Low L. braccoe.]
A garment worn by men, covering the hips and thighs.  It is now a close
garment; but the word formerly was used for a loose garment, now called
trowsers, laxoe braccoe.
To wear the breeches is, in the wife, to usurp the authority of the husband.



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:37 PM


> At 06:46 PM 11/16/2001 -0800, you wrote:
> >Allen, Do you suppose the "breeches" were knee breeches?  Or, did he mean
> >pants as we know them?  or, do suppose the word may have been all
> >inclusive?
> >
> > a pair of leather breeches
> >
> >
> >--- Randal Bublitz
>
> Randy,
>
> Don't know.   Could be either/both.  I know when I was growing up there
was
> an expression that someone was "getting too big for their britches" so the
> terms is still around....
>
> Allen
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes
Date: 16 Nov 2001 21:43:11 -0800

Lanney,   I asked my better half to put on my breeches.  She said "but,
Darlin'...I can't, they are too big..."  I said, "Let that be a lesson to
you...you can't fill my breeches...so that proves I'm the boss around
here".  She said, "put on my undergarments".  I said, " I can't get into
those!".  She said,  "You are correct, and you won't either, as long as you
have that attitude".  Lesson learned.<g>    hardtack


> From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> BREECHES, n.  plu. brich'es. [Low L. braccoe.]
> A garment worn by men, covering the hips and thighs.  It is now a close
> garment; but the word formerly was used for a loose garment, now called
> trowsers, laxoe braccoe.
> To wear the breeches is, in the wife, to usurp the authority of the
husband.
>
>
>
--- Randal Bublitz
--- [e-mail]
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it fro


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 17 Nov 2001 05:10:59 EST

In a message dated 11/16/01 3:39:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Nothing wrong with Wakon Bay True Brown,  but I will
 guarantee that not carding after each application will cause
 a very coarse grainy final finish.  Humidity and time plays a
 roll in how coarse and grainy.

With our low humidity, high heat & 12 hr interval, I still get a nice finish
IF I card the last 2 applications.  If I don't card the last 2 applications,
then things get grainy.  A coarse grain finish doesn't stand up to wear as
well as a fine grained finish.

< Carding is another can of worms,  I use a soft steel wire brush for most
 things,  steel wool on the other hand is used  by many, as it come
 from the hard ware store it has an oil  anti rust preservative that
 forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to prevent
 contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to brown.

Found out the hard way not to use steel wool!  As you say, need to degrease
after using it.  I use a stainless steel "tooth brush" & does ok.

< Just for kicks, apply  the Wakon Bay solution to a part
 such as a lock plate or trigger guard,  let it sit until the scale builds
 up to the normal carding point,  then toss it into a container of
 hot near to boiling water for a few minutes,  take the part out
 (the heat will dry it very quickly)  and card.  Walla, you will
 have the prettiest rust blue you can imagine.

Will have to remember that.

<  Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid effect,

Don't either -- I rinse in HOT water, & when all the water has evaporated &
while the parts are still hot, I rub them down with bees wax.  Parts have to
be hot enough to melt the wax, but it seems to work well & is a method I read
somewhere that the original builders also used.  Linseed oil should
accomplish the same thing.

<  My comments here are not to tell anyone how they
 should do things, but to give a bit more information so they
 can decide for themselves how they want to do things.

Exactly!  I'm not saying what I'm doing is right, but it gives me the results
I'm looking for.  The nice thing about this list is we can compare notes &
learn from each other what works & what doesn't -- and new guys can pick our
brains & MAYBE not make the same mistakes we've suffered through.  Think it
was someone who'd never browned anything's question that started this
thinking he had to polish the parts before browning.  Polishing before hot
bluing works, but seems to hinder a good brown job.

< (By the way, Coleman fuel used in a safe environment, is an excellent
degreaser.)

Hmmmm!  Never tried it because knowing it's a petroleum product, I assumed
it'd leave a film -- gasoline & diesel do.  Another excellent degreaser is
diesel engine starting fluid, but it's EXTREMELY flammable -- worse than
Coleman fuel.  But it has the advantage of being available in aerosol cans.
Rubbing alcohol works too.  I prefer aerosols so I can just flood the part &
let the excess drip off.  With liquid on a rag, sometimes the rag gets
contaminated with grease & makes matters worse, so changing rags frequently
is a MUST!  OH, & the red "shop towels" suck for degreasing!  They have
something in them that leaves a film with alcohol -- might work with Coleman
fuel.

NM

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From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: canvas treatment
Date: 17 Nov 2001 15:12:53 -0800 (PST)


you no doubt have heard about baker's walnut and
linseed oil canvas preparation.

i recently discussed with an A.M.M member about
improvising a tipi from canvas peices. although warmth
was my purpose the pitch adds color and waterproofing.
i sincerily doubt the western mt. men used much walnut
hull dyeing unless they brought it with them from back
east.

as far as baker's justication of using linseed oil
because a fire burned a bro's beewaxed leanto; i find
this not only messy but spontaneous combustion could
erupt in modern storage.

i beleive smoking it during winter camps from
evergreen pitch was most common.  also mansinita in
the southwest dyed both traps and canvas of mine. in
northern california and east of the big muddy, oak
galls can be boiled and give a
grey-blackish-blue(depending on strength).

a factor i've recently learned that baker makes no
note of : natural dyes require a morten, salt and
venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty
water is essentual for dyeing as a morten.

WATERPROOFING- no mountain man had thompsen's water
seal so what about the pitch thing i mentioned.

recently i melted wax into my canvas samples over all
the pitch and stains.

question-HAS ANYONE FOUND ANY DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE
USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS?
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE COMMON HAVERSACKS I'VE SEEN.
 I MEAN HEATING UP YOUR CANVAS AFTER THE WAX IS
APPLIED FOR GREAT PENETRATION AND MINUS THE MESSY WAX LOOK.

__________________________________________________
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From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 17 Nov 2001 15:19:29 -0800 (PST)


you no doubt have heard about baker's walnut and
linseed oil canvas preparation.

improvising a tipi from canvas peices i smoked my
canvasses during elk season; they look great and
according to baker the pine pitch watterproofs the
tipi on the inside top 1/3. i sincerily doubt the
western mt. men used much walnut hull dyeing unless
they brought it with them from back east.

as far as baker's justication of using linseed oil
because a fire burned baker's bro's beewaxed shelter;
i find this not only messy but spontaneous combustion
could erupt in modern storage.

i beleive smoking it during winter camps from
evergreen pitch was most common.  also mansinita in
the southwest dyed both traps and canvas of mine. in
northern california oak galls can be boiled and give a
grey-blackish-blue(depending on strength).

a factor i've recently learned that baker makes no
note of : natural dyes require a morten, salt and
venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty
water is essentual for dyeing.

WATERPROOFING- no mountain man had thompsen's water
seal so what about the pitch thing i mentioned.

recently i melted wax into my canvas samples over all
the pitch and stains.

question-HAS ANYONE FOUND ANY DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE
USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE COMMON HAVERSACKS I'VE SEEN.
 I MEAN HEATING UP YOUR CANVAS AFTER THE WAX IS
APPLIED FOR GREAT PENETRATION AND MINUS THE MESSY WAX LOOK.

__________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 17 Nov 2001 08:58:11 -0600


On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:40:37 -0700 Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
writes:
> Carding is another can of worms,  I use a soft steel wire brush for
most
> things,  steel wool on the other hand is used  by many, as it come
> from the hard ware store it has an oil  anti rust preservative that
> forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to prevent
> contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to brown.

Pard ---
I dont use steel wool for carding as you say it contains oil ---have for
several years used brass woll i also use brass woll to remove frost rust
on old guns ---but then i add oil and rub the surface---it will not
scratch blueing even on the finest rifles but is excelent to remove the
surface scale---works much better then steel woll or a wire brush or
such---thats my suggestion---home depot has it in about 4 grades ans i
get the finest i can get to use for cleaning and carding---it works super
for the carding



>           Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid
> effect,  I  heat the barrel or let it sit in the sun until it is
> almost  to hot to handle, then smear on a coat of boiled linseed.  Let
> it sit for an hour or so then wipe off the excess oil.  According
> to Bivens this is what a lot of the old builders did, and has
> worked for me for 40 years or so.

I usto do the same as bevins for many years but found that sometimes if
you dont get the surface sealed good the parts will continue to rust
especially in the trigger area and the lock---and under the tangs---then
if you let a gun sit up for 6 mo or more you get funny things happening
to the lock and the triggers---so now i just make it simpler and kill the
acid---also the sealer of linseed seems to give a real slick surface and
some people dont want that I want a even matt on the finish---and after
you handel it a while it slicks out and looks more original than the
linseed oil that gives a gloss on ocasions---just my humbel opinion of
course ---what ever works for you and what you are looking for it the
final line in the process---

.  (By the way, Coleman fuel
> used in a safe environment, is an excellent degreaser.)
>
 Old Coyote
you are truly correct i use the same stuff but if i am in an open area i
also use acetone or just plain soap and water and scrub the parts  and
then dont let them toutch my hands---use rubber glooves ---with the
parker solution you dont have to worry about that---thats one of the
primary reasons i went to it---just delivered a rifle to frank and it was
browned using the parker solution---maby he can come on line and let you
know what the color and all is like on the browning---its a black brown
not a rust brown---looks like most of the originals you see in museums---

got to run---back to the hunting woods---
nuff said---
"HAWK"
Michael Pierce        Home of "Old Grizz Products"  & "the Arkansas Under
Hammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684  Phone:[phone]
e-mail:  [e-mail]  web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
________________________________________________________________
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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 17 Nov 2001 16:50:14 -0800


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 3:19 PM


>
> you no doubt have heard about baker's walnut and
> linseed oil canvas preparation.

Clint,

I don't want to sound like some kind of expert but I must address some
points you make as they run counter to my experience and understanding.

I've viewed Mark Baker's video where he goes into detail on waterproofing
canvas. Firstly it is linen canvas that he uses as I understand and he does
not use walnut dye. If he did so, it was by chance as far as the
waterproofing process is concerned. He may have used a piece of cloth that
had been previously dyed and if he implied that the dye helps waterproof the
material I'll disagree with that assumption. What I saw him do was paint his
material while it hung from the side of an old log building.

His "paint" is a mixture of linseed oil and a choice of pigments. I believe
he used iron oxide but may have suggested that other pigment bases would
work. I got the impression that what he was trying to accomplish was to
impregnate the pigment into the canvas pores using the linseed oil as a
carrier. Incidentally, I did a similar experiment a few years ago when he
first mentioned trying this (in an article in Muzzle Loader) but I used
linseed, burnt umber oil paint and bee's wax all melted together over modest
heat. The mixture was then "painted on to cotton muslin. The bee's wax was
incorporated to keep the fabric from becoming too stiff and thus fragile in
cold weather particularly. It worked to some degree.


>
> improvising a tipi from canvas pieces i smoked my
> canvasses during elk season; they look great and
> according to baker the pine pitch watterproofs the
> tipi on the inside top 1/3. i sincerely doubt the
> western Mt. men used much walnut hull dyeing unless
> they brought it with them from back east.

I doubt the western Mt. Man used walnut hull dyes either. I don't think
Baker thinks they did either as I pointed out above. Smoking canvas does
tend to close the pores and I think it also increases the surface tension so
water is less likely to penetrate. But I have canvas shelters that are not
treated with anything and they are generally good shedders of water as long
as they aren't pitched too shallowly. The canvas gets wet, swells up and
stops further leakage if any. I have also tried George Washington Sears'
method of treating canvas with lime, alum and rain water. That also helps
but though authentic to the late 1800's is probably not something that
mountain men did or had done (which is the more likely way they acquired
anything like this).


>
> as far as baker's justification of using linseed oil
> because a fire burned baker's bro's beewaxed shelter;
> i find this not only messy but spontaneous combustion
> could erupt in modern storage.

There are a number of things that Baker believes that I find not to be true
in reality and ways of doing things that amaze me but each to his own. As a
retired Fire Capt. I can assure you that linseed treated canvas is just as
flammable/combustible at it's driest as canvas treated with bee's wax. And
after linseed treated canvas has cured to a 'dry to the touch' state it will
not spontaneously combust in storage in your garage. Only as still
oily/tacky cotton/linen waste, shut up in a pile will it combust on it's
own. Basically the same that happens with a wet hay stack. Dried out the hay
is fine, but bailed wet and you have the good potential for spontaneous
ignition. Same for any of the natural oils in cloth.


>
> i beleive smoking it during winter camps from
> evergreen pitch was most common.

I would suggest that this is true but just a lucky byproduct of setting up a
camp and burning wood quite naturally. I doubt it was done on purpose.

 also mansinita in
> the southwest dyed both traps and canvas of mine. in
> northern california oak galls can be boiled and give a
> grey-blackish-blue(depending on strength).

Again true but Baker wasn't dying his canvas, I believe he was painting it
though it may have already been dyed.

>
> a factor i've recently learned that baker makes no
> note of : natural dyes require a morten, salt and
> venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty
> water is essentual for dyeing.

I've noticed that too but am not much into natural dyes so I'm quite
ignorant of the mordents needed other than that they are needed.


>
> WATERPROOFING- no mountain man had thompsen's water
> seal so what about the pitch thing i mentioned.

Quite true. I've used it in the distant past but have recently figured out
that it really isn't necessary. Plain tightly woven cotton cloth will work
fine without adding much of anything. Linen is a somewhat different story as
it is rarely woven tight enough. A friend, Magpie, of the Black River Party
AMM made himself a fine "oil cloth" this past year using Bakers method. It
worked fine and came out beautifully flexible and water tight. Perhaps he
will jump in and relate his experience in more detail? <G>


>
> recently i melted wax into my canvas samples over all
> the pitch and stains.
>
> question-HAS ANYONE FOUND ANY DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE
> USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS.

No and I doubt anyone will.

> I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE COMMON HAVERSACKS I'VE SEEN.

From what I understand they were more often painted rather than coated or
treated with bee's wax.

>  I MEAN HEATING UP YOUR CANVAS AFTER THE WAX IS
> APPLIED FOR GREAT PENETRATION AND MINUS THE MESSY WAX LOOK.

I did paint my linen haversack and a small knapsack with bee's wax. I got it
quite hot and used a natural fiber brush so the heat would not curl the
bristles. The material soaked up the bee's wax to the degree it could be
soaked up and no more (it went on much as a light oil would until it cooled
of course). I didn't find that the end product was messy or left layers of
wax to crumble and break/flake off. I may have added some thinner to the mix
just to cut the amount of wax being carried into the material but don't
recall.

I hope this has been of help and some clarification.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment
Date: 17 Nov 2001 19:48:02 EST

In a message dated 11/17/2001 3:15:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  ABOUT THE USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS? >>

Call me crazy, but from what I've seen over the years, it's easy enough to
burn a lodge down as it is.  Adding a low-temperature combustible (wax) to
the fabric (wick) sounds like the makin's of a GIANT candle, no?
Barney

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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment
Date: 17 Nov 2001 17:27:31 -0800

Adding a low-temperature combustible (wax) to
> the fabric (wick) sounds like the makin's of a GIANT candle, no?
> Barney

Call me mistaken but I seem to recall that the old OD green military wall
tent my dad used elk hunting years ago had been treated with a wax/oil
waterproofing. <G>

 As long as you didn't put a match to the edge of it, it never burned up.
Even an arrant spark would only burn a smoldering hole, no flame.

Capt. Lahti'



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment
Date: 17 Nov 2001 20:51:19 EST

In a message dated 11/17/2001 5:22:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes: << Call me mistaken but I seem to recall that the old
OD green military wall tent my dad used elk hunting years ago had been
treated with a wax/oil waterproofing. <G> >>

Probably right Capt., and it wouldn't smell near as bad or combust like
Linseed Oil. Barn

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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes
Date: 17 Nov 2001 19:51:47 -0700

At 09:43 PM 11/16/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Lanney,   I asked my better half to put on my breeches.  She said "but,
>Darlin'...I can't, they are too big..."  I said, "Let that be a lesson to
>you...you can't fill my breeches...so that proves I'm the boss around
>here".  She said, "put on my undergarments".  I said, " I can't get into
>those!".  She said,  "You are correct, and you won't either, as long as you
>have that attitude".  Lesson learned.<g>    hardtack

I guess your attitude has changed by now, huh Hardtack!  Otherwise it's
gonna be a long cold winter.............

Allen
Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country


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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: FW: AMM-List: Cavalry
Date: 17 Nov 2001 20:22:58 -0800

<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=[e-mail] href="mailto:[e-mail]">Randal Bublitz</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=[e-mail] href="mailto:[e-mail]">ammlist</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 11/17/01 6:46:57 PM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> AMM-List: Cavalry</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Guys,  I was looking at the newspaper today.  It had a picture of our Special Forces guys on horseback.  What a kick in the pants.  Here are our highest trained warriors on horseback.  I can't wait until they hit the river country...I want to see a pic of our boys in canoes.    hardtack</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV>
<DIV>--- <A href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></DIV>
<DIV>We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P></P></FONT>
<P></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV>
<DIV>--- <A href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></DIV>
<DIV>We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>-------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays!</BODY></HTML>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 17 Nov 2001 23:27:18 EST


In a message dated 11/17/01 4:45:23 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< A friend, Magpie, of the Black River Party

AMM made himself a fine "oil cloth" this past year using Bakers method. It

worked fine and came out beautifully flexible and water tight. Perhaps he

will jump in and relate his experience in more detail? <G> >>

Thanks Capt......here's what worked for me.
 The oil cloth I made was out of a queen size "Egyptian Cotton" sheet...about
220 threads per inch. It squared up at 7.5'X7.5', and both sides were painted
with a mix of boiled linseed oil and yellow iron oxide....about a half gallon
and 1 lb of oxide was used. It took a couple days to dry to the touch in the
sun, and a week or two in the shade to loose most of the oil smell. I hemmed
the edges, and reinforced the corners with the scraps to make the tarp a bit
more tear resistant.

I'm pleased with the end result.....it's light, waterproof, fairly strong,
and didn't cost much to make. As far as flame proof....I took several scrap
samples and held a match to the edge, expecting an explosion. The edge would
burn, but if I turned it edge up, like a candle wick, the flame would go out.
My thinking is the iron oxide acts somewhat as a flame retardant...or at
least slows the burn rate way down. I've seen untreated canvas burn faster,
and with a bit of common sense, I'd use it for any camp.

I just picked up a pound of red iron oxide, a nice piece of 9X9, coarse "home
spun" looking cotton canvas, that I'll hand sew into my next tarp when the
rain stops....mebbe six months from now.

Ymos,
Magpie






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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment
Date: 17 Nov 2001 22:12:36 -0800

> Probably right Capt., and it wouldn't smell near as bad or combust like
> Linseed Oil. Barn

Barn,

Linseed is not going to combust any more so after it dries than a wax
coating but if your worried even after all this assurance then at least
you'll be extra cautious. <G> And if you dry it properly (it takes a long
time in hot sun during a hot summer by the way) it doesn't smell all that
bad any more. But it does add weight to the fabric and if the fabric is a
tight weave in the first place, and you do not need water tight integrety to
protect your goods for when the canoe rolls over I would not bother and
would not carry the extra weight.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes
Date: 17 Nov 2001 22:23:37 -0800

No Comment <s>   hardtack


> I guess your attitude has changed by now, huh Hardtack!  Otherwise it's
> gonna be a long cold winter.............
>
> Allen
maillist.html


--- Randal Bublitz
--- [e-mail]
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from
our Ch


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment
Date: 18 Nov 2001 02:12:14 EST

In a message dated 11/17/2001 10:07:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes: << you do not need water tight integrety to
 protect your goods for when the canoe rolls over I would not bother and
 would not carry the extra weight. >>

You got a point there Capt. <G>   I have a feeling the stuff I've seen made
with Linseed Oil may not have been dried properly, 'cuz it was tacky and
reeked, and that was weeks after it had been made.

I think my concern about burning comes from once wrapping a rag soaked with
boiled Linseed Oil around a hawk handle to tighten it up.  When I came back
in the morning, the handle and cloth were way hot and toasted to a nice
medium brown!  If this is a common ocurrance with Linseed Oil, I understand
and agree it wouldn't be a problem when the tent was in use, but could
present a problem in storage.                 Barney

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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment
Date: 18 Nov 2001 12:04:54 -0800

If this is a common ocurrance with Linseed Oil, I understand
> and agree it wouldn't be a problem when the tent was in use, but could
> present a problem in storage.                 Barney

Barney,

I think your missing my point. Dry linseed does not cause spontanious
ignition even in that tent all folded up in the corner of your garage. Wet
linseed rags or cloth waded up, folded over or whatever is a spontanious
ignition/combustion problem and what we guard against.

Your dripping linseed oiled wrap around the hawk handle was almost
guarenteed to heat up. If it had been a well dried linseed oiled wrap,
nothing would have happended.

And if you want to make an oil cloth plan on doing it on the driest hotest
part of the summer or it may never dry out! And it will stink until it does!
<G>

YMOA
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bucking
Date: 18 Nov 2001 14:17:32 -0700

Got a questions after reading stuff on braintan.com.

They suggest soaking in an alikine solution prior to braining.  If I use
lye how much do I mix with +/- 5 gallons of water to make an effective
mix.

Wynn Ormond



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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bucking
Date: 18 Nov 2001 13:53:22 -0800


Wynn,   You can't use too much.  Only so much lime will mix with the water,
and this saturation point is the correct mixture.
"with hydrated lime:  mix one lb. (a quart) of lime with two gallons of
water.  It's impossible to make it too strong because the lime reaches a
saturation in water at the perfect concentration.  There should be enough
lime that some of it settles to the bottom of the bucket over time. this is
the extra that can be stirred up each time the solution is to be used, to
bring it back to full strength.  Use more than you need.  Pretty darn easy"
Matt Richards  Deerskins into buckskins pg 48      I bought 50 lbs of
hydrated lime for $10 at local hardware store   hardtack


--- Randal Bublitz
--- [e-mail]
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from
our Children



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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: lye or lime
Date: 18 Nov 2001 16:14:30 -0600

Whoa, Hardack,
Wynn asked how much LYE to mix with water not how much LIME.  Which is it,
Wynn, LYE or LIME?
You can dang sure put too much LYE in water.  You put a lot of lye in water
and you will very quickly create a scalding hot, caustic solution that could
cause serious injury.  A lot of lime in water will result in the essentially
harmless solution you talked about.
If it is lye be careful  how you add it to water.  Use an enamel ware or
stainless steel pan and slowly dribble the lye into cool water while
stirring gently with a wooden spoon.  Do this outdoors to avoid the fumes.
Ask any soap maker.
Lanney


Wynn wrote:
They suggest soaking in an alikine solution prior to braining.  If I use
lye how much do I mix with +/- 5 gallons of water to make an effective
mix.

Hardtack wrote:
Wynn,   You can't use too much.  Only so much lime will mix with the water,
and this saturation point is the correct mixture.
"with hydrated lime:  mix one lb. (a quart) of lime with two gallons of
water.  It's impossible to make it too strong because the lime reaches a
saturation in water at the perfect concentration.  There should be enough
lime that some of it settles to the bottom of the bucket over time. this is
the extra that can be stirred up each time the solution is to be used, to
bring it back to full strength.  Use more than you need.  Pretty darn easy"
Matt Richards  Deerskins into buckskins pg 48      I bought 50 lbs of
hydrated lime for $10 at local hardware store   hardtack

Lanney Ratcliff


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From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: lye or lime
Date: 18 Nov 2001 14:22:52 -0800


OOOoooopppsss....I am used to using lime, as called for in brain tanning
books I have, so just read lime, rather than lye.  Sorry for my oversite.
I've used lime, and recommend it highly to help the hair slip.  It will
save A LOT of work.   hardtack

--- Randal Bublitz
--- [e-mail]
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from
our Children



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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: lye water
Date: 18 Nov 2001 16:48:55 -0600

Hardtack
I don't know how much lye to mix with a given amount of water to dehair a
critter, but I know it works because  I have seen it done.
I went coon hunting in the bottoms of east Texas many times in the 1970's
and the man I went with would keep any possums we shot while looking for the
high dollar coon pelts....in those days a large, top quality cased coon pelt
would fetch upwards of $40.  To prepare the possum for the pot he would dump
a can of Red Devil lye in a couple gallons of water in a plastic bucket and
swirl the possum around in the liquid for a few minutes, using its tail for
a handle.  He would use his garden hose to wash off all the fur from the
possum which would then be cleaned and cooked.  He loved to eat the nasty
sob's and tried his damnedest to get me to eat one.  Naw, not the kid.   In
east Texas, country people will tell you that if you sneak up on a dead cow
and give the carcass a kick, at least one possum will run out of its rear
end, smacking its lips and grinning with all 50 teeth......supposedly the
most teeth of any North American land animal.  Not naw, but HELL naw.
But I have eaten armadillo and those devils can carry leprosy.  How dumb is
that??

Lanney
ps:  For those who don't speak our local dialect, "naw" is Texican for "no"


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment
Date: 18 Nov 2001 18:26:03 EST

In a message dated 11/18/2001 11:59:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes: << I think your missing my point. Dry linseed does
not cause spontanious ignition...

...make an oil cloth on the driest hottest part of the summer or it may never
dry out!

Capt.,  Yer right. Thanks for two points,  well taken!  Barn

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Bucking those skins with Lye
Date: 18 Nov 2001 20:20:15 -0500

">They suggest soaking in an alikine solution prior to braining.  If I use
>lye how much do I mix with +/- 5 gallons of water to make an effective
>mix.

Wynn,

Last year I used the Red Devile lye to buck my braintan project.  It worked like a charm, but I can tell you that one skin in a 5 gallon bucket will require a lot of stirring and "refolding".  If you can,  go get one of these 18 gallon rubbermaid totes with a lid at wal-mart (about 4 bucks last time I got one).  The stirring space and the lid are worth it.

NOW, to answer your question...put in as much as you'd like...just know that it will irritate you a LOT if the mix is too rich.  I did a little digging at the braintan.com site and came up with the answer...it is pretty high up the list under a bucking question category.  I think I used half a bottle to 8 gallons of H20.  HOWEVER, if you can get hardwood ashes (esp. hickory) then use those...I found that it colors the hide and makes it easier to see where you have already scraped the grain and where you miss...Red Devil Lye does not.  And any little bit of grain you miss will not soften well.  If you do not have any hardwood ashes, make some!!!  What better excuse to have your friends over for a whole-hog bbq? <VBG>

Good luck with your skins!!!

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 19 Nov 2001 00:40:25 EST

In a message dated 11/17/01 3:21:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  natural dyes require a morten, salt and
 venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty
 water is essentual for dyeing. >>

The proper mordant for walnut is iron.  You're "iron pot or rusty water" or
even some filings or shavings from machining would be correct for walnut hull
dye.  I haven't been able to nail anyone down to just how much iron/steel is
needed.  Other natural dyes may take a diferent mordant -- haven't studied up
on anyting but walnut.  However, I believe you need to use an oxide (red or
yellow) powder instead of a dye with linseed oil when making oil cloth to get
it to dry properly.

NM

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 19 Nov 2001 07:53:29 -0700

Gentelmen,
I have a book called "the Encyclopedia of practical knowledge" The book was
published in 1880. The following formulas were listed in it.
"To waterproof canvas goods"
Soak in linseed oil with a litle wax and litharge

"Scarlet Dye"
Cream of tarter 25 oz
Cohinical, pulverized 12 1/2 oz
Muriate of tin or Scarlet spirit 8 lbs
Boil mixture for 15 minutes then add cloth and boil for 1 1/2 hr while
agitating.
Dry in sun
YMOS
Ole #718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
>Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001, 10:40 PM
>

>In a message dated 11/17/01 3:21:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><<  natural dyes require a morten, salt and
> venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty
> water is essentual for dyeing. >>
>
>The proper mordant for walnut is iron.  You're "iron pot or rusty water" or
>even some filings or shavings from machining would be correct for walnut hull
>dye.  I haven't been able to nail anyone down to just how much iron/steel is
>needed.  Other natural dyes may take a diferent mordant -- haven't studied up
>on anyting but walnut.  However, I believe you need to use an oxide (red or
>yellow) powder instead of a dye with linseed oil when making oil cloth to get
>it to dry properly.
>
>NM
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 19 Nov 2001 10:20:35 EST

> >The proper mordant for walnut is iron.

This is false information.  Walnut dye is self-mordanting.

>You're "iron pot or rusty water" or even some filings or shavings from
machining
>would be correct for walnut hull dye.

In this case, the type of pot or added ingredients used changes the color of
the dye.  Using an iron kettle instead of a plastic bucket will result in a
deeper color.  The addition of added ingredients simply changes the chemcal
properties of the dye.

>I haven't been able to nail anyone down to just how much iron/steel
> is needed.

Depends on what you are doing.  Walnut hulls are a cold dye.  It works
without boiling.  If you start adding iron, then it starts reacting with the
tannic acid to change the dye mix.  The more you add, the more you get away
from having walnut dye and the closer you get to having an iron based dye.  A
handul of filings, a couple of iron nails, or simply that which is dissolved
from the iron pot are sufficient.  You can also add sumac leaves/bark to
alter the color.  It depends on what you want, and experimentation is
required.

Dave Kanger

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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: canvas treatment
Date: 19 Nov 2001 10:17:34 -0600

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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This is only semi-related, but I thought I'd pass it on;

For many years I camped with a big ol wall tent. For water-proofing, I used
paraffin wax dissolved in white (Naphtha) gas and painted it on (in the
middle of bloody nowhere, well away from any sparks) - soaks right into the
fabric and seals it up tight. It DID add weight but did such a good job you
could have used it fer a bucket! (I LIVED in that tent for extended
periods.)

Was always worried about flammability until one evening a big ol ember from
the fire landed on the tent. I decided just to watch and see what happened.
The ember burned thru and fell inside. The edges of the small hole continued
to glow for a few seconds, and then WENT OUT! I realized the paraffin in the
weave had melted and smothered the glowing threads.

I know it ain't the way a mountain man would have waterproofed his canvas
but once done, it's pretty hard to tell HOW it was done.

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2651.75">
<TITLE>canvas treatment</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">This is only semi-related, but I =
thought I'd pass it on;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">For many years I camped with a =
big ol wall tent. For water-proofing, I used paraffin wax dissolved in =
white (Naphtha) gas and painted it on (in the middle of bloody nowhere, =
well away from any sparks) - soaks right into the fabric and seals it =
up tight. It DID add weight but did such a good job you could have used =
it fer a bucket! (I LIVED in that tent for extended =
periods.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Was always worried about =
flammability until one evening a big ol ember from the fire landed on =
the tent. I decided just to watch and see what happened. The ember =
burned thru and fell inside. The edges of the small hole continued to =
glow for a few seconds, and then WENT OUT! I realized the paraffin in =
the weave had melted and smothered the glowing threads.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I know it ain't the way a =
mountain man would have waterproofed his canvas but once done, it's =
pretty hard to tell HOW it was done.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: browning
Date: 19 Nov 2001 11:28:12 -0800

Hawk said,
    <---just delivered a rifle to frank and it was
browned using the parker solution---maby he can come on line and let you
know what the color and all is like on the browning>

    Yeppers, he sure did. And a fine Jaeger it is. The browining is deep and
smooth. I don't know much about the Parker solution but I bet that much time
was spent on the surface preparation for it to look this good.
    BTW: I have long used aerosol cans of carburetor cleaner for cleaning
guns and gun parts. Handy and effective. But like the other stuff, use only
with plenty of ventilation and no flames.
Frank


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes
Date: 19 Nov 2001 13:38:04 EST

We are talking about a set of token guidelines to help the unschooled look
more correct at such places as the Fort Bridger Rendezvous . . . a source of
pride to them and a relief from embarrassment to the rest of us.

In a message dated 11/17/1 3:06:08 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Pg. 82.  "A Trappers equipment in such cases is generally  . . . .>>
  Great start, Alan!  Thanx1

Now  --  with this example, who is next?

Most sincerely
Dick James

Dick James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct??
Date: 19 Nov 2001 13:44:44 EST


In a message dated 11/17/1 4:39:17 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Also consider that a bunch of us have been doing the primitive
demonstrations at Bridger for the past 3 years, and will be next year as
well........all the things you are looking for are discussed and
demonstrated there.
>>

The idea of something printed was to get it into the hands of 40,000 people -
not just the small percent that visit the AMM  camp and stop to visit.  A
nice coup for AMM to have the article included at no cost to AMM.  This
offering was put out to everyone on line - many more than are in the AMM camp
in Ft. B.  Besides, as I recall, the original idea was yours.  Are you saying
now it was a bad idea to begin with?

Dick

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes
Date: 19 Nov 2001 13:49:05 EST


In a message dated 11/17/1 5:45:59 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Notice the pronunciation.......rhymes with "itches" not "leeches".  No

entry is found for "britches>>

Thank you, Lanny, for the notes.  I have recorded them in their entirety with
the other contributions.

Dick James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 19 Nov 2001 14:41:47 EST

In a message dated 11/19/01 7:22:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< This is false information.  Walnut dye is self-mordanting.
  >>

Ok, if walnut dye doesn't need a mordant, how come it washes out?

NM

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From: mitch post <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye
Date: 19 Nov 2001 11:49:10 -0800 (PST)


---  .
>   >>
>
> Ok, if walnut dye doesn't need a mordant, how come
> it washes out?
>
> NM
>
 Walnut dye will wash out over time whether or not you
use a mordant. Most natural dyes,or Rit for that
matter,will wash out/fade from sun,laundry soap, etc.
If it fades....RE-DYE it. Easy enough.
             Mitch in SW Arkansas

=====
"RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL"

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil
Date: 19 Nov 2001 15:30:04 EST

> Ok, if walnut dye doesn't need a mordant, how come it washes out?

It doesn't.  I just gets lighter with each washing, as does any dye.  The
more you wash it, the duller it gets.  If will never wash out completely.  It
just isn't the color you want or envision it to be.

I have a walnut stained shooting bag that has never been washed.  It's the
same color as when I dyed it.  I also have two shirts that I wear regularly
for the past 8-10 years that have faded to a brownish tan color early on and
have remained that same color ever since.

If you want to retain that brownish/black Walnut Ranger appearance, don't
wash your clothes.  If you wash them, they will fade regardless of how they
were dyed.  Are your Levi's the same color as when you bought them?

Dave

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye
Date: 19 Nov 2001 15:46:43 EST


In a message dated 11/19/1 8:51:46 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Walnut dye will wash out over time whether or not you
use a mordant. Most natural dyes,or Rit for that
matter,will wash out/fade from sun,laundry soap, etc.
If it fades....RE-DYE it. Easy enough.
             Mitch in SW Arkansas>>

I have a book on dying that references walnut dye back into the 1600s on this
continent among euro-Americans.  If it is not perfect  --  I guess they just
lived with it.  It is known that the dye frequently used for CSA uniforms was
"butternut brown" created by boiling walnut hulls and rusty iron.  Dye
formulas also refer to acid-rust browning where an acid (hydrochloric,
nitric, sulphuric, etc.) is used to reduce the iron.  Perhaps the walnuts and
rust produce a more permanent dye.  I plan to find out with 10 yards of wool.


A recent experience:  I used aqua fortis to take the rust-proof finish off of
a lot of iron hardward and screws a short time ago.  When I was finished with
the job I neutralized the dilute acid with soda but (and I have done this
before) I accidentally splashed some of the muck on a good shirt.  I
Immediately rinsed it in cold water and then doused it with numerous
"stain-out" laundry boosters.  No good.  That brown is there permanently!   I
would say then that to utilize this now known fact . . . .  use nitric in
dilute (5/1  --  10/1) solution to clean rust off whatever it was you were
dreading, then take the nickle finish off screws, hinges, chap buckles, etc
in the liquid.  Before you start have a bucket of sodium barcarbinate
disolved in water in a heavy solution standing by.  When you take the metal
out of the acid, neutralize it in the soda water.  Also use it on whatever
you unintentionally splash the acid-liquid.  When you are all through
GENTLY/SLOWLY pour the used acid liquid into the soda-water neutralizer.  You
will get a lot of foamy bubbles!  Allow for this so you don't get overflow.
That brown liquid you see is a stout dye!  If you wish you can boil up a big
tub of wallnut hulls and add the acid liquid so you get the color of the
combined dyes and cook your fabric in this (less than boiling).  It will work
for leather, also, but at warm to cook temperatures.  Caution:  best to wear
rubber exam gloves and clothes you plan to eventually dye brown anyway.

Sincerely
Richard James

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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes
Date: 19 Nov 2001 18:28:03 -0500

May be of little value but here's an interesting bit of detail from
the journal of Zenas Leonard describing what might be an early chafe
guard <G>, or perhaps just insulation?

"We had not even leather to make snow shoes, but as good fortune would
have it, some of the
men had the front part of their pantaloons lined with deer skin, and
others had great coats of different kinds of skin..."

This being January 29, 1832, headed for "santafee" (NM).  At the time
they were
eating beaver skins (!!) for sustanence, and wishing themselves
elsewhere.


And this from Ferris, traversing the Bitteroot river (somewhere between
1830 and 1835),
listing the few things he deemed important enough to mention:

"With my gun, blanket, tomahawk and knife, together with a small strip
of dried venison I set out on snow shoes.."


Tom


[e-mail] wrote:
>
> We are talking about a set of token guidelines to help the unschooled look
> more correct at such places as the Fort Bridger Rendezvous . . . a source of
> pride to them and a relief from embarrassment to the rest of us.
>
> In a message dated 11/17/1 3:06:08 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<Pg. 82.  "A Trappers equipment in such cases is generally  . . . .>>
>   Great start, Alan!  Thanx1
>
> Now  --  with this example, who is next?
>
> Most sincerely
> Dick James
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper book list
Date: 19 Nov 2001 18:37:40 EST


--part1_170.42c0573.292af1c4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One thing the Fort Bridger paper should have is a list of recommended books=20
that are easy and inexpensive to buy. All the books I list are available on=20
the inter net for less than $20 and pertain to the fur trade in the Rocky=20
Mountains 1820 to 1840. I recommend newer published paper back books. They=20
have better indexes, foot notes and forwards with corrections on miss=20
information or information that has been discovered sense the books writing.=
=20
It also allows the reader to make notes and reminders in the book without=20
destroying a valuable book. Also a reader should read the intire book=20
introduction, preface, foot notes and bibliography.

Across the Wide Missouri =A0by Bernard De Voto =A0general fur trade history
Adventures of Zenas Leonard Fur Trader =A0by Zenas Leonard =A0=A0journal
Beaver =A0Men by Mari Sansoz =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0general fur trade hi=
story
Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men =A0by Carl P. Russell =A0=A0=A0e=
quipment
Give Your Heart to the Hawks =A0by Winfred Bevins =A0=A0factual over view of=
=20
trappers life
Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell =A0journal
Life in the Far West by George F. Ruxton =A0journal
A Life Wild and Perilous by Robert M. Utley =A0factual over view of trappers=
=20
life
Personal Narrative of James O. Pattie by James O. Pattie =A0journal
Rocky Mountain Rendezvous =A0by Fred R. Gowans =A0sites & events of the rend=
ezvous
The Splendid Warfaring =A0by John G. Neihardt =A0narrative of Ashley's party
This Reckless Breed of Men by Robert Cleland general southwest fur trade=20
history =A0
1837 Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade by Rex Norman clothing and gear

The following are collections of short Bios. taken from LeRoy Hafens 10 Vol.=
=20
set Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West

Mountain Men and Fur Traders of the Far West=20
Trappers of the Far West=20
French FurTraders & Voyageurs in the American West=20
Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West

Your suggestions are appreciated
Mark "Roadkill" Loader

--part1_170.42c0573.292af1c4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>One thing the Fort Bridge=
r paper should have is a list of recommended books that are easy and inexpen=
sive to buy. All the books I list are available on the inter net for less th=
an $20 and pertain to the fur trade in the Rocky Mountains 1820 to 1840. I r=
ecommend newer published paper back books. They have better indexes, foot no=
tes and forwards with corrections on miss information or information that ha=
s been discovered sense the books writing. It also allows the reader to make=
 notes and reminders in the book without destroying a valuable book. Also a=20=
reader should read the intire book introduction, preface, foot notes and bib=
liography.
<BR>
<BR>Across the Wide Missouri =A0by Bernard De Voto =A0general fur trade hist=
ory
<BR>Adventures of Zenas Leonard Fur Trader =A0by Zenas Leonard =A0=A0journal
<BR>Beaver =A0Men by Mari Sansoz =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0general fur trad=
e history
<BR>Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men =A0by Carl P. Russell=20=
=A0=A0=A0equipment
<BR>Give Your Heart to the Hawks =A0by Winfred Bevins =A0=A0factual over vie=
w of trappers life
<BR>Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell =A0journal
<BR>Life in the Far West by George F. Ruxton =A0journal
<BR>A Life Wild and Perilous by Robert M. Utley =A0factual over view of trap=
pers life
<BR>Personal Narrative of James O. Pattie by James O. Pattie =A0journal
<BR>Rocky Mountain Rendezvous =A0by Fred R. Gowans =A0sites & events of=20=
the rendezvous
<BR>The Splendid Warfaring =A0by John G. Neihardt =A0narrative of Ashley's p=
arty
<BR>This Reckless Breed of Men by Robert Cleland general southwest fur trade=
 history =A0
<BR>1837 Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade by Rex Norman clothing and gear
<BR>
<BR>The following are collections of short Bios. taken from LeRoy Hafens 10=20=
Vol. set Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West
<BR>
<BR>Mountain Men and Fur Traders of the Far West=20
<BR>Trappers of the Far West=20
<BR>French FurTraders & Voyageurs in the American West=20
<BR>Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West
<BR>
<BR>Your suggestions are appreciated
<BR>Mark "Roadkill" Loader</FONT></HTML>

--part1_170.42c0573.292af1c4_boundary--

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From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment
Date: 19 Nov 2001 17:00:45 -0800 (PST)


> I know it ain't the way a mountain man would have
> waterproofed his canvas
> but once done, it's pretty hard to tell HOW it was
> done.

one has to remember that there are simularities in wax
, dye, and linseed recipies; but then a lot of things
were lost that just didn't survive the document
process.  who says some colonial never waxed a canvas
object?  not every procedure is a surviving document.

__________________________________________________
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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: linseed oil
Date: 19 Nov 2001 20:20:59 -0600

Ole quoted:
"To waterproof canvas goods"
Soak in linseed oil with a litle wax and litharge

MIGHT NOT  BE A GOOD IDEA.  LITHARGE IS LEAD MONOXIDE, MAKING YOUR CANVAS
BOTH FLAMMABLE AND POISONOUS.  SORT OF LIKE MY EX-WIFE'S COOKING.
LANNEY
PS: IT'S A WONDER ANYBODY SURVIVED THE "GOOD OLD DAYS"
PPS:  MY CURRENT WIFE IS A VERRRRY GOOD COOK.   SOMEBODY TELL HER I SAID SO.

....from the Noah Webster 1828 dictionary
LITH'ARGE, n.  [L. lithargyros, Gr. the spume or scum of silver.
A semi-vitreous oxyd of lead, produced in refining silver by cupellation
with lead.  It appears in the form of soft flakes, or semi-transparent
shining plates.

..


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: linseed oil
Date: 19 Nov 2001 19:59:55 -0700

Lanney,
I wondered what that was!. But that's what it said I wouldn't eat it. I
wonder what it would act like?
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
>To: "History List" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: linseed oil
>Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001, 7:20 PM
>

>Ole quoted:
>"To waterproof canvas goods"
>Soak in linseed oil with a litle wax and litharge
>
>MIGHT NOT  BE A GOOD IDEA.  LITHARGE IS LEAD MONOXIDE, MAKING YOUR CANVAS
>BOTH FLAMMABLE AND POISONOUS.  SORT OF LIKE MY EX-WIFE'S COOKING.
>LANNEY
>PS: IT'S A WONDER ANYBODY SURVIVED THE "GOOD OLD DAYS"
>PPS:  MY CURRENT WIFE IS A VERRRRY GOOD COOK.   SOMEBODY TELL HER I SAID SO.
>
>....from the Noah Webster 1828 dictionary
>LITH'ARGE, n.  [L. lithargyros, Gr. the spume or scum of silver.
>A semi-vitreous oxyd of lead, produced in refining silver by cupellation
>with lead.  It appears in the form of soft flakes, or semi-transparent
>shining plates.
>
>..
>
>
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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment
Date: 19 Nov 2001 20:46:45 -0800

> one has to remember that there are simularities in wax
> , dye, and linseed recipies; but then a lot of things
> were lost that just didn't survive the document
> process.  who says some colonial never waxed a canvas
> object?  not every procedure is a surviving document.

Clint,

Who says they did use wax? For that matter who says they didn't do a lot of
things we can think of? So where does it stop?

Capt. Lahti'



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye
Date: 20 Nov 2001 01:20:19 EST

Mitch you ole dog! Good to see yer not in the slammer....yet....<G>
Magpie

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye
Date: 20 Nov 2001 05:50:37 EST

In a message dated 11/19/01 12:32:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< It doesn't.  I just gets lighter with each washing, as does any dye.

Well, I'd call that washing out or fading.

< The more you wash it, the duller it gets.  If will never wash out
completely.  It
 just isn't the color you want or envision it to be.

I dyed 4 shirts (1 linen & 3 cotton) 3 years ago & they're now gold instead
of brown or any shade there of.  Wife also managed to snag my frock &
lightened it to about a medium brown with just one washing!  She's since been
threatened with broken fingers if she washes frock again & SO FAR, that's
worked!  8)  I really liked the color & feel of the frock when it was freshly
dyed -- DARK brown & had almost a waxy feel to it.  One of the shirts had
interesting darker spots -- almost black originally -- like maybe it had been
on the bottom & came into contact with the solids in the bottom of the pot.
Even the dark spots on that shirt are gone now.  Someone said walnut is a
"cold dye"??  Maybe what I did wrong was dye the shirts hot?  Then too,
someone else said they dyed hot, so maybe I did it right?  Left the shirts in
about 1 hr, & yes they had been washed prior to being dyed.  Since I'd used a
big (7 gal) aluminum cook pot, I thought maybe the lack of iron was the
reason they faded so quickly & completely.  I know when I watched a dying
demonstration at Old Ft. Niagara, they used cast iron pots.

 < I also have two shirts that I wear regularly for the past 8-10 years that
have faded to a brownish tan color early on and have remained that same color
ever since.

I wouldn't have minded if my shirts stayed that color, but as I said, they're
now a light golden color.

< Are your Levi's the same color as when you bought them?

They ARE still blue, just not as dark.  Someone's solution to my problem was
"redye" --- easier said than done.  Dang few walnut trees here in the Nevada
desert!  The batch of dye I used the first time was from nuts I'd picked up
from Dad's farm in N. W. Missouri, but he's since sold out & his new home in
town doesn't have any walnut trees.  The turkey that bought the old homestead
bulldozed the all the walnut trees, so that source is even gone.  He didn't
even cut the trees for lumber -- just pushed 'em off in a ditch & burned 'em.
 Those trees were good sized when Dad bought the farm in 1950.  I almost cry
overtime I think how many rifle stocks went up in smoke!  Anyhow, my source
of more dye is now non existent.

NM

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye
Date: 20 Nov 2001 09:32:19 EST

I have read the discussion of dyeing with walnut hull.  This has been
produced for years for dying traps, but west of the Rockies we have used
criss oak leaves and small branches.  Hope this helps.

                                           Joe aka Ridge Pole

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From: mitch post <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye
Date: 20 Nov 2001 08:09:54 -0800 (PST)


--- [e-mail] wrote:
> Mitch you ole dog! Good to see yer not in the
> slammer....yet....<G>
> Magpie
>
 Nope, not in the slammer-just in Arkansas.....
 Getting ready to send Bead Shooter some black
walnuts-do you want me to send enough for you? Let me
know.
 Hey NaugaMok-do you want some black walnuts? Get with
me off-line and we can discuss it.......Mitch in SW
Arkansas-land of many walNUTS...

=====
"RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL"

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes
Date: 20 Nov 2001 13:52:40 EST

Tom
All good stuff.  Thank you.  I have added it to the archive hopeing there
will eventually be enough material to generate the final
product/list/guidelines.

Sincerly
Dick James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper book list
Date: 20 Nov 2001 14:00:50 EST

Roadkill:

Good addendum and good approach for how to use a book for research.  I am
pleased to see that every book you recommended is included in my library.
Especially valuable is the Mari Sandoz book that many people seem not to be
aware of.  I have archived your message with the few others I have received,
hoping there will in time be enough to finish the project.  If you can think
of others to add to the bibliography, please send them along.

Sincerey
Dick James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye
Date: 20 Nov 2001 17:08:40 EST

In a message dated 11/20/01 6:36:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  west of the Rockies we have used
 criss oak leaves and small branches.  >>

Now that you mention it, when I was on a bear hunt in the Adirondacks, it
rained & the wet maple & oak leaves left some interesting colored spots on my
diamond fly.  Didn't last long, but the leaves DID cause a color to be
transfered to the canvas.  "Criss oak -- any relation to our desert "scrub
oak"?

NM

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye
Date: 20 Nov 2001 17:08:42 EST

In a message dated 11/20/01 8:12:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  Hey NaugaMok-do you want some black walnuts? Get with
 me off-line and we can discuss it.......Mitch in SW
 Arkansas-land of many walNUTS... >>

That would cure my problem.  Now if someone can tell me how to make it more
permanent so I don't have to bug you every 3 - 4 years for more, I'd be
getting somewhere!

NM

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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye
Date: 21 Nov 2001 00:29:58 +0000

NM,
  It's the green hulls that actually does the dyeing.(If you already Know
that, I don't mean to be insulting)the acid in the hulls do the work and if
you pile them up in a cast iron kettle and let the hulls soak for a few days
so they ceate a little rust in the kettle,then build a fire around the
kettle and let it cook for about an hour.
The rust from the kettle creates the mordant for the dye bath. You can dye
smoked brain tan almost a blackish purplish brown.(like the old stuff you
see from eastern bags and mocs in museums. Let your dye bath cool a little
before you put your skins or material in it. You don't want to cook it, just
want to dye it. I hope this will help you.
Don in the Ohio Country


>From: [e-mail]
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye
>Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:08:42 EST
>
>In a message dated 11/20/01 8:12:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><<  Hey NaugaMok-do you want some black walnuts? Get with
>  me off-line and we can discuss it.......Mitch in SW
>  Arkansas-land of many walNUTS... >>
>
>That would cure my problem.  Now if someone can tell me how to make it more
>permanent so I don't have to bug you every 3 - 4 years for more, I'd be
>getting somewhere!
>
>NM
>
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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Walnut Dye
Date: 21 Nov 2001 01:03:18 +0000

P.S. The old brown wrinkled up ugly hulls work for dye,too. But, it just
takes more of them.
Don

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From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 20 Nov 2001 18:19:57 -0700

This message is in MIME format.  Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

----__JNP_000_6526.67e6.1865
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hmmmm, seems like I am making a lot of comments, but I have
one more if the list will allow.  You mention bee's wax being applied
to the hot (warm) barrel.  As I interpret your meaning the wax creates
sort of a sealer to the metal as well as giving an very nice looking
finish.  I believe  the wax application  is very valuable in preventing
future or additional rusting.  As I said before, I use an application
of boiled linseed oil to a hot barrel immediately after the last carding.
This linseed oil application is only after I have acquired the depth of
color (brown) that I like.  My last action before mounting the barrel
is to generously  apply the hot wax to the underside or what I call
the lower five flats of the barrel (the sides and three bottom flats
that lie in the stock)  to create just the sort of sealer you speak of.
I have found remnants of bee's wax in corners and crevasses
of several old original stocks and it is my belief that the wax
application was a common practice of old gun makers.  I have
used this technique on all of my personal firearms for many years,
and carry my trade guns in rain, snow and whatever is thrown  our
way, and  never had a rust problem.  I have many times for extra
protection in rainy weather simply smeared on a generous amount
of Bore Butter.  (Which I personally don't care for as a Patch lube)
Good luck on all your future projects, be safe, but mostly have fun!!!
Respectfully,
Old Coyote

 << Nothing wrong with Wakon Bay True Brown,  but I will
>  guarantee that not carding after each application will cause
>  a very coarse grainy final finish.  Humidity and time plays a
>  roll in how coarse and grainy.
>
> With our low humidity, high heat & 12 hr interval, I still get a
> nice finish
> IF I card the last 2 applications.  If I don't card the last 2
> applications,
> then things get grainy.  A coarse grain finish doesn't stand up to
> wear as
> well as a fine grained finish.
>
> < Carding is another can of worms,  I use a soft steel wire brush
> for most
>  things,  steel wool on the other hand is used  by many, as it come
>  from the hard ware store it has an oil  anti rust preservative that
>
>  forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to prevent
>  contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to brown.
>
> Found out the hard way not to use steel wool!  As you say, need to
> degrease
> after using it.  I use a stainless steel "tooth brush" & does ok.
>
> < Just for kicks, apply  the Wakon Bay solution to a part
>  such as a lock plate or trigger guard,  let it sit until the scale
> builds
>  up to the normal carding point,  then toss it into a container of
>  hot near to boiling water for a few minutes,  take the part out
>  (the heat will dry it very quickly)  and card.  Walla, you will
>  have the prettiest rust blue you can imagine.
>
> Will have to remember that.
>
> <  Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid effect,
>
> Don't either -- I rinse in HOT water, & when all the water has
> evaporated &
> while the parts are still hot, I rub them down with bees wax.  Parts
> have to
> be hot enough to melt the wax, but it seems to work well & is a
> method I read
> somewhere that the original builders also used.  Linseed oil should
> accomplish the same thing.
>
> <  My comments here are not to tell anyone how they
>  should do things, but to give a bit more information so they
>  can decide for themselves how they want to do things.
>
> Exactly!  I'm not saying what I'm doing is right, but it gives me
> the results
> I'm looking for.  The nice thing about this list is we can compare
> notes &
> learn from each other what works & what doesn't -- and new guys can
> pick our
> brains & MAYBE not make the same mistakes we've suffered through.
> Think it
> was someone who'd never browned anything's question that started
> this
> thinking he had to polish the parts before browning.  Polishing
> before hot
> bluing works, but seems to hinder a good brown job.
>
> < (By the way, Coleman fuel used in a safe environment, is an
> excellent
> degreaser.)
>
> Hmmmm!  Never tried it because knowing it's a petroleum product, I
> assumed
> it'd leave a film -- gasoline & diesel do.  Another excellent
> degreaser is
> diesel engine starting fluid, but it's EXTREMELY flammable -- worse
> than
> Coleman fuel.  But it has the advantage of being available in
> aerosol cans.
> Rubbing alcohol works too.  I prefer aerosols so I can just flood
> the part &
> let the excess drip off.  With liquid on a rag, sometimes the rag
> gets
> contaminated with grease & makes matters worse, so changing rags
> frequently
> is a MUST!  OH, & the red "shop towels" suck for degreasing!  They
> have
> something in them that leaves a film with alcohol -- might work with
> Coleman
> fuel.
>
> NM
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
----__JNP_000_6526.67e6.1865
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<META http-equiv=3Dcontent-type content=3Dtext/html;charset=3DUS-ASCII>
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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Hmmmm, seems like I am making a lot of comments, but I have</DIV>
<DIV>one more if the list will allow.  You mention bee's wax being=20
applied</DIV>
<DIV>to the hot (warm) barrel.  As I interpret your meaning =
the=20
wax creates</DIV>
<DIV>sort of a sealer to the metal as well as giving an very nice looking</=
DIV>
<DIV>finish.  I believe  the wax application  is very=20
valuable in preventing </DIV>
<DIV>future or additional rusting.  As I said before, I use an=20
application</DIV>
<DIV>of boiled linseed oil to a hot barrel immediately after the last=20
carding.</DIV>
<DIV>This linseed oil application is only after I have acquired the depth =
of=20
</DIV>
<DIV>color (brown) that I like.  My last action before mounting the=20
barrel</DIV>
<DIV>is to generously  apply the hot wax to the underside or what I =
call=20
</DIV>
<DIV>the lower five flats of the barrel (the sides and three bottom flats <=
/DIV>
<DIV>that lie in the stock)  to create just the sort of sealer you =
speak=20
of.</DIV>
<DIV>I have found remnants of bee's wax in corners and crevasses</DIV>
<DIV>of several old original stocks and it is my belief that the wax </DIV>
<DIV>application was a common practice of old gun makers.  I have</DIV>
<DIV>used this technique on all of my personal firearms for many years,</=
DIV>
<DIV>and carry my trade guns in rain, snow and whatever is thrown =20
our</DIV>
<DIV>way, and  never had a rust problem.  I have many times for=20
extra</DIV>
<DIV>protection in rainy weather simply smeared on a generous amount</DIV>
<DIV>of Bore Butter.  (Which I personally don't care for as a Patch=20
lube)</DIV>
<DIV>Good luck on all your future projects, be safe, but mostly have=20
fun!!!</DIV>
<DIV>Respectfully,</DIV>
<DIV>Old Coyote</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> << Nothing wrong with Wakon Bay True Brown,  but I =
will=20
<BR>>  guarantee that not carding after each application will=20
cause<BR>>  a very coarse grainy final finish.  Humidity and =
time=20
plays a <BR>>  roll in how coarse and grainy.<BR>> <BR>> With=
 our=20
low humidity, high heat & 12 hr interval, I still get a <BR>> nice =
finish=20
<BR>> IF I card the last 2 applications.  If I don't card the last =
2=20
<BR>> applications, <BR>> then things get grainy.  A coarse =
grain=20
finish doesn't stand up to <BR>> wear as <BR>> well as a fine grained=
=20
finish. <BR>> <BR>> < Carding is another can of worms,  I use=
 a=20
soft steel wire brush <BR>> for most<BR>>  things,  steel =
wool=20
on the other hand is used  by many, as it come<BR>>  from the =
hard=20
ware store it has an oil  anti rust preservative that <BR>>=20
<BR>>  forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to=20
prevent<BR>>  contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to=
=20
brown.<BR>> <BR>> Found out the hard way not to use steel wool! =
 As=20
you say, need to <BR>> degrease <BR>> after using it.  I use a=20
stainless steel "tooth brush" & does ok.<BR>> <BR>> < Just for=
=20
kicks, apply  the Wakon Bay solution to a part<BR>>  such as a=
 lock=20
plate or trigger guard,  let it sit until the scale <BR>>=20
builds<BR>>  up to the normal carding point,  then toss it =
into a=20
container of<BR>>  hot near to boiling water for a few minutes,&=
nbsp;=20
take the part out<BR>>  (the heat will dry it very quickly)  =
and=20
card.  Walla, you will<BR>>  have the prettiest rust blue you =
can=20
imagine.<BR>> <BR>> Will have to remember that.<BR>> <BR>>=20
<  Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid effect,=20
<BR>> <BR>> Don't either -- I rinse in HOT water, & when all the =
water=20
has <BR>> evaporated & <BR>> while the parts are still hot, I rub=
 them=20
down with bees wax.  Parts <BR>> have to <BR>> be hot enough to =
melt=20
the wax, but it seems to work well & is a <BR>> method I read <BR>&=
gt;=20
somewhere that the original builders also used.  Linseed oil should=20
<BR>> accomplish the same thing.<BR>> <BR>> <  My comments=
 here=20
are not to tell anyone how they <BR>>  should do things, but to =
give a=20
bit more information so they<BR>>  can decide for themselves how =
they=20
want to do things.<BR>> <BR>> Exactly!  I'm not saying what I'm =
doing=20
is right, but it gives me <BR>> the results <BR>> I'm looking for.&=
nbsp;=20
The nice thing about this list is we can compare <BR>> notes & <BR>&=
gt;=20
learn from each other what works & what doesn't -- and new guys can <BR=
>>=20
pick our <BR>> brains & MAYBE not make the same mistakes we've =
suffered=20
through.  <BR>> Think it <BR>> was someone who'd never browned=20
anything's question that started <BR>> this <BR>> thinking he had to=
=20
polish the parts before browning.  Polishing <BR>> before hot <BR>&=
gt;=20
bluing works, but seems to hinder a good brown job.<BR>> <BR>> < (=
By=20
the way, Coleman fuel used in a safe environment, is an <BR>> excellent=
=20
<BR>> degreaser.)<BR>>  <BR>> Hmmmm!  Never tried it =
because=20
knowing it's a petroleum product, I <BR>> assumed <BR>> it'd leave a =
film=20
-- gasoline & diesel do.  Another excellent <BR>> degreaser is=
=20
<BR>> diesel engine starting fluid, but it's EXTREMELY flammable -- =
worse=20
<BR>> than <BR>> Coleman fuel.  But it has the advantage of =
being=20
available in <BR>> aerosol cans.  <BR>> Rubbing alcohol works=20
too.  I prefer aerosols so I can just flood <BR>> the part &=20
<BR>> let the excess drip off.  With liquid on a rag, sometimes the=
 rag=20
<BR>> gets <BR>> contaminated with grease & makes matters worse, =
so=20
changing rags <BR>> frequently <BR>> is a MUST!  OH, & the =
red=20
"shop towels" suck for degreasing!  They <BR>> have <BR>> =
something=20
in them that leaves a film with alcohol -- might work with <BR>> Coleman=
=20
<BR>> fuel.<BR>> <BR>> NM<BR>> <BR>>=20
----------------------<BR>> hist_text list info: <BR>> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.=
xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR>>=20
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

----__JNP_000_6526.67e6.1865--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper /clothing
Date: 20 Nov 2001 21:16:51 EST


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Personnel Narrative of James O. Pattie page 88
"We appeared before the Alcaide, clad not unlike our Indian friends, that is
to say, we were dressed in deer skin, with leggings, moccasins and hunting
shirts, all of this article, with the addition of the customary Indians
article of dress around the loins, and this was of red cloth, not an article
of which had been washed since we left the Copper Mines"
page 116
After this they went and brought their women and children, who, like the
other Indians, we ad seen, were all stark naked. At first they were
excessively shy of us. This shyness wore off, and in the course of the day
changed to and eager curiosity, to examine us and admiration of our red
flannel shirts, and the white skin under them: for little show of whiteness
was to be seen in our faces

Mark "Roadkill" Loader

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Personnel Narrative of James O. Pattie page 88
<BR>"We appeared before the Alcaide, clad not unlike our Indian friends, that is to say, we were dressed in deer skin, with leggings, moccasins and hunting shirts, all of this article, with the addition of the customary Indians article of dress around the loins, and this was of red cloth, not an article of which had been washed since we left the Copper Mines"
<BR>page 116
<BR>After this they went and brought their women and children, who, like the other Indians, we ad seen, were all stark naked. At first they were excessively shy of us. This shyness wore off, and in the course of the day changed to and eager curiosity, to examine us and admiration of our red flannel shirts, and the white skin under them: for little show of whiteness was to be seen in our faces
<BR>
<BR>Mark "Roadkill" Loader</FONT></HTML>

--part1_11f.789b1ee.292c6893_boundary--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 20 Nov 2001 21:47:53 EST

In a message dated 11/20/2001 4:33:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes: << The rust from the kettle creates the
mordant for the dye bath. >>

Someone disagreed with the need for this 'mordant', and while it may not be
necessary, I was told that iron in the bath increases the longevity of the
dye job.

One suttler I met uses an iron kettle at home, which adds the iron as Don
mentioned, then at Rendezvous, where he uses a copper kettle to save weight,
he adds iron to the bath.

Granted it (the dye) will wear/wash out to some degree over time, but
apparently the addition of iron slows the process.    Barney

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper Book list
Date: 20 Nov 2001 20:18:44 -0800 (PST)

Richard, old friend, a couple of good books to add
would be "A Majority Of Scoundrels", and Chittenden's
2 volume set "History of the Fur Trade". I strongly
agree with the other books listed, just thought I
would include a couple I found helpful on my own
journey.  One thing to bear in mind if this pamphlet
is intended as a give-away at Bridger;  Don't make it
so intimidating that it scares potential pilgrims off.
 If they are interested enough, they will visit and
find their own level of comfort.  That is the purpose
behind Pilgrim status.  Just my tuppence worth, YMOS,
Dog, Hiv. #617

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper Book list
Date: 21 Nov 2001 00:23:13 EST

I also would like to recommend:
Utley, A Life Wild and Perilous
Carter, Dear Old Kit
Favour, Old Bill Williams
Weber, The Taos Trappers
Lavender, Bent's Fort
Gilbert, Westering Man (Joe Walker)
Smith, Borderlander (James Kirker)

Respectfully,

John R. Sweet

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 21 Nov 2001 07:20:03 EST

In a message dated 11/20/01 5:25:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Hmmmm, seems like I am making a lot of comments, but I have
 one more if the list will allow.

I don't usually say much either, but when someone new is not getting what
he's really asking for, I sometimes get a case of the blabs.

 < I believe  the wax application  is very valuable in preventing
 future or additional rusting.

It's worked that way for me.

<  My last action before mounting the barrel is to generously  apply the hot
wax to the underside or what I call the lower five flats of the barrel (the
sides and three bottom flats  that lie in the stock)  to create just the sort
of sealer you speak of.

I try to redo that about once a year even though rusting isn't really that
much of a problem with our low humidity.  Figure it's better safe than sorry
-- especially under the wood where I can't see it.  I have a friend who lives
in a humid climate & has a fondness for barrels in the white who uses neutral
shoe polish to control rust.  I recently introduced him to Break Free & he
was like a kid with a new toy.

< I have found remnants of bee's wax in corners and crevasses
 of several old original stocks and it is my belief that the wax
 application was a common practice of old gun makers.

It's nice to get confirmation of something I'd only read about.

 <  I have many times for extra protection in rainy weather simply smeared on
a generous amount of Bore Butter.  (Which I personally don't care for as a
Patch lube)

Don't like Bore Butter for patches either, but what I use it for is
"antiseize" on nipples, drums, & touch hole liners.  I have one rifle &
pistol set that are convertible from percussion to flint.  While I don't
change them often, the Bore Butter, when soaked with Mac's 13 or T/C's
cleaner, allows easy removal of the liner or drum.  I tried regular
antiseize, but it didn't work -- Bore Butter does.

Think we've 'bout covered most major aspects of browning except the (UGH!)
"Hot Brown" method.  Personally, I hate it!  It's hard to get an even
coloring & depth on a larger part.  Occasionally I'll use it for a screw head
if I've messed up & forgot (lost!) to slow rust it.  It's hard to beat the
old slow rust browning for appearance & durability.

< Good luck on all your future projects, be safe, but mostly have fun!!!

To you too!  I would like to try Hawk's browning solution here in the dry --
maybe next project!  Got 2 on the bench waiting for me right now!  Ha!  If'n
it warn't no fun, I wou'n't do it!  8)

NM

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Walnut Dye
Date: 21 Nov 2001 07:19:51 EST

In a message dated 11/20/01 5:06:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< P.S. The old brown wrinkled up ugly hulls work for dye,too. But, it just
 takes more of them. >>

That's odd!  I know when we used to husk walnuts for the nuts, the green
husks didn't make the fingers as brown as quickly as the black soupy husks.
Once they're dried down completely, they don't stain the fingers as badly as
the green or black soupy ones, but they're harder to get off the hull.  I
figured the "black soupy" stage would be best for dye.   What I get for
thinking, huh?  8)  As for the pot, as I said, the walnut dying demo I
watched was done in an iron pot.  Your instructions explains why.  Thanks!

NM

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 21 Nov 2001 07:19:57 EST

In a message dated 11/20/01 6:50:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Someone disagreed with the need for this 'mordant', and while it may not
be
 necessary, I was told that iron in the bath increases the longevity of the
 dye job. >>

My information (I got after I'd already dyed my shirts) was simular.  Walnut
husk dye will work without a mordant, but does work better with a little iron
as mordant.  Maybe I shoulda 'splained that at the start?  Also, I
diferentiate between the husk & hull -- the hull, when ground up is used to
decarbon jet engines & polish brass in tumblers, while the husk is the hulls
outer covering that we use for dye.  OK, now someone's gonna say my "hull" is
really the "shell", but that kinda depends on where you grew up.  Anyhow, I
know my walnut dyed shirts faded badly without the iron, & my main concern
was just how much iron was necessary to make the job last longer.  Don
answered it pretty well with the instructions he posted.

NM

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
Date: 21 Nov 2001 07:28:06 -0700

Sir,
I checked my Encyclopedia from 1880 and the following instruction is given
to make color's fast.
Add 20 oz of gelatine to the dye and let disolve then add 3 oz of Bichromate
of Potash and let disolve. In a dark room without sun light add the fabric
to be dyed. After dying expose cloth to light and the color will not fade
during washing.
YMOS
Ole # 718 Hivarno
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye
>Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001, 5:19 AM
>

>In a message dated 11/20/01 6:50:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><< Someone disagreed with the need for this 'mordant', and while it may not
>be
> necessary, I was told that iron in the bath increases the longevity of the
> dye job. >>
>
>My information (I got after I'd already dyed my shirts) was simular.  Walnut
>husk dye will work without a mordant, but does work better with a little iron
>as mordant.  Maybe I shoulda 'splained that at the start?  Also, I
>diferentiate between the husk & hull -- the hull, when ground up is used to
>decarbon jet engines & polish brass in tumblers, while the husk is the hulls
>outer covering that we use for dye.  OK, now someone's gonna say my "hull" is
>really the "shell", but that kinda depends on where you grew up.  Anyhow, I
>know my walnut dyed shirts faded badly without the iron, & my main concern
>was just how much iron was necessary to make the job last longer.  Don
>answered it pretty well with the instructions he posted.
>
>NM
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 21 Nov 2001 7:9:32 -0800

nm,   Where do you get break free?  I love the stuff, just used up a big
bottle (it took years) and now I can't find it for sale.  I'd appreciate a
source.  hardtack


the white who uses neutral
> shoe polish to control rust.  I recently introduced him to Break Free &
he
> was like a kid with a new toy.
>
> <
--- Randal Bublitz
--- [e-mail]
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 21 Nov 2001 10:22:14 EST

> nm,   Where do you get break free?  I love the stuff, just used up a big
>  bottle (it took years) and now I can't find it for sale.  I'd appreciate a
>  source.  hardtack


http://www.break-free.com/products/index.asp

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 21 Nov 2001 12:58:17 EST

In a message dated 11/21/2001 7:09:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Where do you get break free?  I'd appreciate a source.  hardtack >>

Randy, In addition to the online source given by TOF, I see it at the gun
shows pretty regular... Not that we need another excuse to go to a gun show
;), but there's one if you do.           Ralph

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper Book list
Date: 21 Nov 2001 13:02:08 EST


In a message dated 11/21/1 5:21:06 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Richard, old friend, a couple of good books to add
would be "A Majority Of Scoundrels", and Chittenden's
2 volume set "History of the Fur Trade">>

Dog
Thanx for the input.  These books are essentials for fur trade research as
far as I am concerned and have been in my library for a long time.  Actually
bought my hard cover of "Scoundrels" at Henry's Fork.  I will certainly add
them to the bibliography.

The publication in question was intended to be a brief digest that could be
included in the tabloids they pass out to everyone that comes through the
gate.  It would give the publication "something of value" besides the lengthy
"welcomes" by people who have never seen their names in print before.  It
would cost us nothing, and with proper endorsement could be a nice PR for the
AMM.

Cheers
Dick James

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 21 Nov 2001 16:08:50 EST

In a message dated 11/21/01 10:01:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< << Where do you get break free?  I'd appreciate a source.  hardtack >> >>

Also Dixie Gun Works carrys it (page 399 in '99 catalog) in 1 & 12 oz sizes.
Their 12 oz is spray can.  Haven't tried their 1 oz because it's half the
price of the 12 oz & I'm  -- uh -- "thrifty".  I prefer the small bottle
(liquid) for shooting box that I've since found it in one of the local gun
stores.  What I HAVE done is spray a quantity from the 12 oz can into a Ted
Cash like brass oiler I made for the shooting bag.  Supposedly, the US
Military buys it in 55 gal drums -- good stuff.


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 21 Nov 2001 20:25:02 -0700

NM
Would appreciate it if you would post your experiences with Hawk's
solution.  The humidity is usually pretty low here in Colorado so I
usually
have to do something artificial to get things to work, especially during
winter.
Feel free to post off line if you wish,  I always learn a ton from these
e-mail lists, I truly appreciate every ones input.
        It would be neat if we could get Bob (from the other list),
and the Old fox to comment on how they  prepare their shooters
for rainy and wet weather.  I know Bob packs a trade gun from
time to time, and I  will bet that he don't sit around on the couch
watching football when he can be out in the field even on a wet day.
I am sure the same goes for the Old Fox.
Take care,
Old Coyote


>I would like to try Hawk's browning solution here in
> the dry --
> maybe next project!  Got 2 on the bench waiting for me right now!
> Ha!  If'n
> it warn't no fun, I wou'n't do it!  8)
>
> NM
>

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From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard
Date: 21 Nov 2001 20:44:04 -0700

Brownells generally carry Break Free, I buy the large size
and as you say it lasts a long time.  I have also seen it in Ace Hardware
and Tru-Value stores,   the stuff is great on everything but Ice cream!
Old Coyote
:
> nm,   Where do you get break free?  I love the stuff, just used up a
> big
> bottle (it took years) and now I can't find it for sale.  I'd
> appreciate a
> source.  hardtack
>
>
> the white who uses neutral
> > shoe polish to control rust.  I recently introduced him to Break
> Free &
> he
> > was like a kid with a new toy.
> >
> > <
> --- Randal Bublitz
> --- [e-mail]
> --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye
Date: 22 Nov 2001 09:21:51 EST

I find it amazing that this group always is talking about what was used west
of the Rockies, but when someone other then a few happen to know a little
something, it is for the most part ignored.

As far as, is related to the scrub oak out west, I don't think so.  It looks
nothing like it.  East of the Rockies walnut hulls were used to dye traps.
Then the ink balls off black jack trees can also be use, but they are not as
good as walnut hulls,  But the leaves and smaller twigs that come with them
are great and they are native to the west side of the Rockies.

                                                       Joe AKA Ridge Pole

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From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye
Date: 22 Nov 2001 10:11:17 -0800

The Californios also had walnut hulls at hand. <Juglans californica>,
the California Black Walnut, grows throughout the territory and is a
good source of hulls for dyestuff. The natives would trade them as far
east as Mono Lake.

B'st'rd

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye
Date: 22 Nov 2001 16:54:15 EST

Good infro, but why trade when what grew all around you was just as good if
not better?
                                     Joe

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From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Bucking
Date: 23 Nov 2001 09:10:25 -0700

To pass on an update I tried some lye, just gave the container a couple
three shakes, no where near half a bottle.  I could smell it so I
figured it was worth a try.  Typical of my experiments I never do things
vary scientifically.  This was the first time I used lye and the first
time I have ever worked a fresh hide.  Fresh meaning it was never
allowed to dry out like rawhide.

So when it fleshes and de-hairs fairly easily I do not know which change
to blame it on, let alone the natural fluctuation from hide to hide.
Even so these steps were not the one that I was really looking to make
easier.   It is the next one that has been frustrating me, nothing like
spending hours pulling and stretching only to end up with a half soft
piece of rawhide/leather.  If the lye will help the brains soak in, I am
going to be using it again.

By the way I said +/- 5 gallons I made no indications that it was in a
bucket of that size.

Wynn Ormond



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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: BREAK-FREE
Date: 23 Nov 2001 10:12:43 -0800

Hardtack asked,
    <Where do you get break free?  >
    HD, I am not sure that product is on the market anymore. I liked it too.
But now I use TRI-FLOW and find it equally excellent. It is my all-around
parts lubricant. Any gunshop should have it.
Frank


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From: "Terry Lee Wilson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Iowa groups
Date: 23 Nov 2001 11:02:18 -0600

I'm looking for family-oriented groups located in the vicinity of Des Moines, Iowa.  Any help in locating one would be greatly appreciated.

Terry Wilson

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From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Being Ignored
Date: 23 Nov 2001 10:19:30 -0700

Joe wrote:
I find it amazing that this group always is talking about what was used
west
of the Rockies, but when someone other then a few happen to know a
little
something, it is for the most part ignored.

                                                       Joe AKA Ridge
Pole

Never noticed anybody being ignored but I still remember some of your
post about beaver trapping from about a year ago, so you must be on the
not ignore list huh?

Wynn Ormond


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From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BREAK-FREE
Date: 23 Nov 2001 11:35:42 -0700


Break free is most deffinitely still on the market, and really not too
hard to find.
Old Coyote

> Hardtack asked,
>     <Where do you get break free?  >
>     HD, I am not sure that product is on the market anymore. I liked
> it too.
> But now I use TRI-FLOW and find it equally excellent. It is my
> all-around
> parts lubricant. Any gunshop should have it.
> Frank
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "John & Nancy McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Iowa groups
Date: 23 Nov 2001 18:50:19 -0600

Terry,
    Don't know exactly what you mean by 'family oriented' groups. I have
found the black powder community, by in large, a family oriented group. I
live about an hour and a half south of DM. You can contact me off list with
any questions and I might be able to help.   John

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 11:02 AM


> I'm looking for family-oriented groups located in the vicinity of Des
Moines, Iowa.  Any help in locating one would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Terry Wilson
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ethan J. Sudman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Bridger Paper /clothing
Date: 23 Nov 2001 19:52:54 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Interesting quote... which book is it from? Do you know where I could =
get it?

Thanks,
Ethan Sudman

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Interesting quote... which book is it =
from? Do you=20
know where I could get it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ethan Sudman</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C17458.70E0A880--


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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Jean Update
Date: 23 Nov 2001 22:55:35 -0600

I wish I had better news about Laura Jean than this.
She has had a rough time lately and is not doing very well right now.  She
had a bad seizure  two weeks ago and has not recovered from it as quickly as
she has after other seizures.  This has caused her to have great difficulty
communicating.  She knows what she wants to say but can hardly get the words
to come.  She is very hard to understand and she knows it....which
frustrates her to tears.   She is getting therapy for this and for the back
pain brought on by a fall in September and hopefully this will help.  When
it rains, it pours don't it?!
She always says "Think of me when the wind blows".  So, please, think of her
when the wind blows and send her a prayer from time to time.
Till then......
Lanney
ps:  Getting mail is one of her few joys right now.  She told me she feels
the love and good will from the things people send her, so if you can find
the time to send her a card or a photograph of the mountains you will make
her smile and smell the smoke from your fire.   I know that when she is
able, she will thank you personally.
....her address
Laura Glise
3841 Prestwick Lane SE
Olympia, WA  98501



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Bridger Paper /clothing
Date: 24 Nov 2001 20:10:43 EST


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Ethan
Both from Personnel Narrative of James O. Pattie
Mark "Roadkill"

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Ethan
<BR>Both from Personnel Narrative of James O. Pattie
<BR>Mark "Roadkill"</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a4.1cca7546.29319f13_boundary--

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From: "Terrance Luff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: amm,fort bridger paper
Date: 25 Nov 2001 06:44:01 -0700

sorry about getting back to you slow, but the hiverant metis has another
band getting started and we need to take carry metis.
as i have said the aiverant metis new letter did a running artical on the
dress and rec reading for metis of the fur trade eara. in this case
sticking closd to the cart hunts that were hear in montana, and n.d.
although i did not reliz that these list has become a AMM camp. i will be
short. the news letter found that you must be very short on pages, in our
case never forget the indivigal factor. recomended reading list short, a big
long list scars the first timer. the persons that hand out the paper must be
in dress. to the penny because a person with alittle reading is looking for
the bad. have drawings or pictures. use copy mechines,computer. the drawing
does not have to be artis can be simple as long as dress is shown.also alot
of people are looking for patterns or ways to build own outfit.(for little
Money). as for my infor, i have done this before on this list. the (everants
may tee) has a library and office in billings mt 2202 main st.. contans most
book that has been recomended by you people and family interviews, an as
many plus on metis. also we have pictures of metis in period dress now and
then. befor i get carried away on metis history  i will move on. i have also
been in bucksinning in mont and western sts. sence 60s ben in metis history
(which came from fur trade)aaaaa us say over 50 years. if you give me time
to go trew books,interviews,priest writings and i can back up any artical
the letter has done .
                                           ter luff
                                           scott spell, luffee part of
                                           stewart clan.
                                           big head man (cree)
                                           durpie (french)
                                           elder hiverant metis.
Ps. must remeber that i am chained by tradion.  get hold of me at email
and i will try and give some pointers we have done threw years,if
interested.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


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From: "S. Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags
Date: 25 Nov 2001 10:46:14 -0600 (CST)

Hallo the List,

I need help.  My 7 year old niece has started going to events with us and is
very enthusiastic.  She is helping make her own kit and clothes.  She wants
a turtle shell bag, having seen several being carried/worn by others.  I
cannot find any documentation for these things and the folks I asked who had
them could not document them.  Everyone "was told" they were correct by
someone else or a vendor.
We are trying to start her out right and teach the need for documentation.
She has gone through all my books and suggested I ask you all, as she has
seen me reading all the posts and help you have provided.
Christmas is coming and she wants a bag.  Help!

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp



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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: turtle bags
Date: 25 Nov 2001 11:02:51 -0800

S. Gilbert said,
    <.  Everyone "was told" they were correct by
someone else or a vendor.>
    Sadly, there was once a time when one could build an outfit based on
personal observation and oral tradition. Now, it seems, that one must carry
a library of 'documentation' to even be allowed on the grounds of some
pre-1840 events.
    Even then your clothes and camp might be scorned because they do not fit
someones notion of what an RMFT trappers camp and dress might/should have
been.  That there were styles, equipage and an America other than the
Rockies is denied by some and scorned by others.
    I suggest you do what you wish, within the bounds of what your
observations and common sense dictate. Continue seeking advice from others,
and learning on your own,  but weigh the soundness of what you are told. If
someone is openly critical of what you are doing, most likely that person is
not one you would want to count among your friends.
    Build the turtle bag and let your niece enjoy. Good luck.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags
Date: 25 Nov 2001 13:22:17 -0500

S. Gilbert,

I can honestly say that I do not know of documentation other than seeing one
worn on Dr. Quinn medicine woman.

I have however made many and carried them to a variety of rendezvous down
here in Georgia.  Only responses that were made of them was how nice they
were.  I think I remember seeing one in the local Cherokee museum in Bartow
Co. Georgia.

Good Luck,

Frank V. Rago


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:46 AM


> Hallo the List,
>
> I need help.  My 7 year old niece has started going to events with us and
is
> very enthusiastic.  She is helping make her own kit and clothes.  She
wants
> a turtle shell bag, having seen several being carried/worn by others.  I
> cannot find any documentation for these things and the folks I asked who
had
> them could not document them.  Everyone "was told" they were correct by
> someone else or a vendor.
> We are trying to start her out right and teach the need for documentation.
> She has gone through all my books and suggested I ask you all, as she has
> seen me reading all the posts and help you have provided.
> Christmas is coming and she wants a bag.  Help!
>
> Sue Gilbert
> 6 Beaver Camp
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags
Date: 25 Nov 2001 13:46:11 -0500


--------------6DDFF89F954C5D0AD12F0B5B
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Unfortunately, why are we perpetuating a very non documented item?  Too many
turtles have given their lives for this item. [Image] There have been turtle
shells used for cups and bowls, but have not seen a one in the museums that was
made into a bag in the 18th or 19th. cent.  But, have I ever seen them at
Rendezoux. [Image] Make the shell into a cup she can drink out of and make sure
you bleach it out real good.  Then make her a leather pouch to hang from her
belt that will be more to "period" and I also do not mean one out of the fur
skins either.

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

> S. Gilbert,
>
> I can honestly say that I do not know of documentation other than seeing one
> worn on Dr. Quinn medicine woman.
>
> I have however made many and carried them to a variety of rendezvous down
> here in Georgia.  Only responses that were made of them was how nice they
> were.  I think I remember seeing one in the local Cherokee museum in Bartow
> Co. Georgia.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Frank V. Rago
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: S. Gilbert <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:46 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags
>
> > Hallo the List,
> >
> > I need help.  My 7 year old niece has started going to events with us and
> is
> > very enthusiastic.  She is helping make her own kit and clothes.  She
> wants
> > a turtle shell bag, having seen several being carried/worn by others.  I
> > cannot find any documentation for these things and the folks I asked who
> had
> > them could not document them.  Everyone "was told" they were correct by
> > someone else or a vendor.
> > We are trying to start her out right and teach the need for documentation.
> > She has gone through all my books and suggested I ask you all, as she has
> > seen me reading all the posts and help you have provided.
> > Christmas is coming and she wants a bag.  Help!
> >
> > Sue Gilbert
> > 6 Beaver Camp
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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<html>
Unfortunately, why are we perpetuating a very non documented item?
Too many turtles have given their lives for this item. <img SRC="cid:[e-mail]" height=22 width=32>
There have been turtle shells used for cups and bowls, but have not seen
a one in the museums that was made into a bag in the 18th or 19th. cent.
But, have I ever seen them at Rendezoux. <img SRC="cid:[e-mail]" height=20 width=25>
Make the shell into a cup she can drink out of and make sure you bleach
it out real good.  Then make her a leather pouch to hang from her
belt that will be more to "period" and I also do not mean one out of the
fur skins either.
<p>Linda Holley
<p>[e-mail] wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>S. Gilbert,
<p>I can honestly say that I do not know of documentation other than seeing
one
<br>worn on Dr. Quinn medicine woman.
<p>I have however made many and carried them to a variety of rendezvous
down
<br>here in Georgia.  Only responses that were made of them was how
nice they
<br>were.  I think I remember seeing one in the local Cherokee museum
in Bartow
<br>Co. Georgia.
<p>Good Luck,
<p>Frank V. Rago
<p>----- Original Message -----
<br>From: S. Gilbert <[e-mail]>
<br>To: <[e-mail]>
<br>Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:46 AM
<br>Subject: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags
<p>> Hallo the List,
<br>>
<br>> I need help.  My 7 year old niece has started going to events
with us and
<br>is
<br>> very enthusiastic.  She is helping make her own kit and clothes.
She
<br>wants
<br>> a turtle shell bag, having seen several being carried/worn by others.
I
<br>> cannot find any documentation for these things and the folks I asked
who
<br>had
<br>> them could not document them.  Everyone "was told" they were
correct by
<br>> someone else or a vendor.
<br>> We are trying to start her out right and teach the need for documentation.
<br>> She has gone through all my books and suggested I ask you all, as
she has
<br>> seen me reading all the posts and help you have provided.
<br>> Christmas is coming and she wants a bag.  Help!
<br>>
<br>> Sue Gilbert
<br>> 6 Beaver Camp
<br>>
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> ----------------------
<br>> hist_text list info: <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a>
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</html>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags
Date: 25 Nov 2001 14:54:42 EST

Sue, I spoke with a Cherokee friend in Oklahoma who remembers that after
eating the Turtle, her Great-Grandmother  and Grandmother would make the
shells into cups, bowls, spoons, hair combs and baby rattles among other
things.

The ornately decorated rattles, hand painted and adorned with feathers, beads
and other shells were filled with dried corn kernels, and would also be used
as dance sticks or ceremonial rattles. (She indicated that this is still done
today....)

Apparently her GGM had learned this art in her childhood. As this was close
to 50 years ago, and her GGM was 90+ at the time, it's nearing the period.
Though none of these are documented as far as I know, from her description
the baby rattle/dance stick are close in design to a bag, so the idea
wouldn't be very far-fetched.

To aid in your search, here are a couple of links to people that make and/or
sell Turtle bags. Keep in mind that they are SELLING, so press for sources of
primary documentation, etc. Maybe you could spend some time online with your
Niece watching; teaching her how to do some research with you by her side.
It may be frustrating if you don't find the necessary documentation, but
would be a valuable learning experience for your Niece.

Hope this is of some help.  Barney

 <A HREF="http://www.manataka.org/">Manataka American Indian Council</A>

 <A HREF="http://www.twobears.com/">TWO BEARS- LEATHER, TURTLE AND MORE!</A>

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From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags
Date: 25 Nov 2001 16:00:56 -0700

Sue,

I for one commend you on your efforts to teach you niece to do research
from the get go.
If more people would do like wise and teach the young kids and beginners
to start out correctly, then eventually there would be fewer folks
out there portraying the "fantasy" mountain man.
Be safe and continue to base your decisions on facts and not fantasy.


"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
http://tetontodd.tripod.com

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:46:14 -0600 (CST) "S. Gilbert"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> Hallo the List,
>
> I need help.  My 7 year old niece has started going to events with
> us and is
> very enthusiastic.  She is helping make her own kit and clothes.
> She wants
> a turtle shell bag, having seen several being carried/worn by
> others.  I
> cannot find any documentation for these things and the folks I asked
> who had
> them could not document them.  Everyone "was told" they were correct
> by
> someone else or a vendor.
> We are trying to start her out right and teach the need for
> documentation.
> She has gone through all my books and suggested I ask you all, as
> she has
> seen me reading all the posts and help you have provided.
> Christmas is coming and she wants a bag.  Help!
>
> Sue Gilbert
> 6 Beaver Camp
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
http://tetontodd.tripod.com

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags
Date: 25 Nov 2001 17:14:14 -0800

Todd Glover wrote :

If more people would do like wise and teach the young kids and beginners
to start out correctly, then eventually there would be fewer folks
out there portraying the "fantasy" mountain man.

>> AMEN   ! ! ! !

Pendleton
" Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . "


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From: "Lee Newbill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Events in the Northwest
Date: 25 Nov 2001 17:56:49 -0800

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Hallo folks... just passing on some info on events of interest that =
happen in the Pacific Northwest, they're also getting posted to the =
website at http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle/bnb/ as they come in.

Coeur D'Alene, Idaho
Muzzleloader & Primitive Crafts Show for the year 2002
At the Fairgrounds
17-18 Feb 2002

Enumclaw, Washington
Cascade Mt. Men's Annual Muzzleloader Arms & Pioneer Show
At the King County Fairgrounds
9-10 March 2002

Bend, Oregon
2002 Pacific Primitve Rendezvous
Send mail to: 67455 Cloverdale Rd., Bend Oregon 97701
Or call: [phone] Tightball or [phone] Uncle Bill =
(Booshway)
21-30 June, Preregistration required by no later than June 1, 2002.

Regards from Idaho

Lee Newbill
WPH Party

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hallo folks... just passing on some =
info on events=20
of interest that happen in the Pacific Northwest, they're also getting =
posted to=20
the website at <A=20
href=3D"http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle/bnb/">http://users.potlatch=
.com/bluethistle/bnb/</A> as=20
they come in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><BIG><FONT size=3D3>Coeur D'Alene, Idaho<BR></FONT><A=20
href=3D"rendz_flyers_2001/coeur'dalene_2002.jpg"><FONT =
size=3D3>Muzzleloader &=20
Primitive Crafts Show for the year 2002</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D3>At =
the=20
Fairgrounds<BR>17-18 Feb 2002</FONT></BIG></DIV>
<DIV><BIG></BIG> </DIV>
<DIV><BIG><FONT size=3D3>Enumclaw, Washington<BR></FONT><A=20
href=3D"rendz_flyers_2001/enumclaw_2002.jpg"><FONT size=3D3>Cascade Mt. =
Men's Annual=20
Muzzleloader Arms & Pioneer Show</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D3>At the =
King=20
County Fairgrounds<BR>9-10 March 2002</FONT></BIG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BIG></BIG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><BIG>Bend, Oregon</BIG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BIG>2002 Pacific Primitve =
Rendezvous</BIG><BR><BIG>Send mail=20
to: 67455 Cloverdale Rd., Bend Oregon 97701</BIG><BR><BIG>Or call: (541) =

382-2098 Tightball or [phone] Uncle Bill =
(Booshway)</BIG><BR><BIG>21-30=20
June, Preregistration required by no later than June 1, =
2002.</BIG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3><BIG></BIG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BIG>Regards from Idaho</BIG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BIG></BIG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BIG>Lee Newbill</BIG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BIG>WPH Party</BIG></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Lee Newbill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Events in the Northwest
Date: 25 Nov 2001 18:04:27 -0800

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Whups... fergot to send the website for the Pacific Primitive... it's =
at:
http://eddies.grrtech.com/rendezvous/ppr/Current/index.html
  Bend, Oregon
  2002 Pacific Primitve Rendezvous
  Send mail to: 67455 Cloverdale Rd., Bend Oregon 97701
  Or call: [phone] Tightball or [phone] Uncle Bill =
(Booshway)
  21-30 June, Preregistration required by no later than June 1, 2002.
Regards from Idaho

Lee Newbill
WPH Party

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Whups... fergot to send the website for =
the Pacific=20
Primitive... it's at:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://eddies.grrtech.com/rendezvous/ppr/Current/index.html">http=
://eddies.grrtech.com/rendezvous/ppr/Current/index.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><BIG>Bend, Oregon</BIG></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><BIG>2002 Pacific Primitve =
Rendezvous</BIG><BR><BIG>Send=20
  mail to: 67455 Cloverdale Rd., Bend Oregon 97701</BIG><BR><BIG>Or =
call: (541)=20
  382-2098 Tightball or [phone] Uncle Bill =
(Booshway)</BIG><BR><BIG>21-30=20
  June, Preregistration required by no later than June 1,=20
  2002.</BIG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2><BIG>Regards from Idaho</BIG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><BIG></BIG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><BIG>Lee =
Newbill</BIG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><BIG>WPH=20
Party</BIG></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: mark scribner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags
Date: 25 Nov 2001 19:28:22 -0800 (PST)

Si Ya, Sue and Camp,
So far as the use of the turtle shell goes, it has
been in use by the Cherokee people sence before the
arrival of the europeans. The shell of the turtle was
used for every day utinsels, tobacco pouches, medicine
bags, rattles, etc., as well as in ceremonies and
rites of passage. The reason the shell was, and is,
important to the Cherokee is that in the story of the
creation of the earth, it was the turtle that swam
down below the water to bring back mud from the bottom
to be dried by the wings of the buzzard to create
solid ground for all creatures to walk on. By using
the turtle shell in every day use, the user is
reminded of how the turtle helped in the creation of
mother earth and reminds the user of it's closeness to
the creator. For more information on the use of turtle
shells, you might try the book "The Cherokee People"
By; Thomas E. Mails or others at your public library.
Should you chose to use the shell of the turtle for
your niece's kit, please pass on the story to her so
that she may wear it with reverance and pride.
Wa do,
Gray Bear
Top Warrior
Deer (A-Whi) Clan
Over-Hill Cherokee Nation
--- [e-mail] wrote:
> S. Gilbert,
>
> I can honestly say that I do not know of
> documentation other than seeing one
> worn on Dr. Quinn medicine woman.
>
> I have however made many and carried them to a
> variety of rendezvous down
> here in Georgia.  Only responses that were made of
> them was how nice they
> were.  I think I remember seeing one in the local
> Cherokee museum in Bartow
> Co. Georgia.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Frank V. Rago
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: S. Gilbert <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:46 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags
>
>
> > Hallo the List,
> >
> > I need help.  My 7 year old niece has started
> going to events with us and
> is
> > very enthusiastic.  She is helping make her own
> kit and clothes.  She
> wants
> > a turtle shell bag, having seen several being
> carried/worn by others.  I
> > cannot find any documentation for these things and
> the folks I asked who
> had
> > them could not document them.  Everyone "was told"
> they were correct by
> > someone else or a vendor.
> > We are trying to start her out right and teach the
> need for documentation.
> > She has gone through all my books and suggested I
> ask you all, as she has
> > seen me reading all the posts and help you have
> provided.
> > Christmas is coming and she wants a bag.  Help!
> >
> > Sue Gilbert
> > 6 Beaver Camp
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Whitetail vs. Mule Deer
Date: 25 Nov 2001 21:48:56 -0700

Hello the List,

A friend (?) dropped off 3 white tail deer hides a while back, and as I
fleshed them out over a beam, I saw the hair was slipping, so I went ahead
and de-haired them as well.

My question is this, has anyone noted any big difference in brain tanning
white tail hides vs. mule deer hides?

We mostly get mule deer out here in the West, and my experience has been
with them.  I'd like to hear other folks thoughts.

Allen out in Fort Hall country


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Jewell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Whitetail vs. Mule Deer
Date: 26 Nov 2001 00:27:14 -0500


----- Original Message -----

> My question is this, has anyone noted any big difference in brain tanning
> white tail hides vs. mule deer hides?
>
> We mostly get mule deer out here in the West, and my experience has been
> with them.  I'd like to hear other folks thoughts.

Allen,

Hereabouts in Maryland we only have whitetail so I can't make a direct
comparison.  That said, I have brain tanned several whitetail hides using
the "standard" method and have had pretty good luck.  I used info. off this
list and from the braintan.com website.  Ie: dehair, mash brains, work into
hide, roll hide and let sit, lace it in a frame and work your a** off
rubbing until dry.

Tim


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From: "Bill Klesinger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Glass mountain
Date: 26 Nov 2001 09:31:29 -0700

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There is a story about Jim Bridger he is a hunting and finds a Glass
mountain. dose anyone have a link to this story. And is there such a
mountain ?
Bill Klesinger



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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D533592816-26112001>There =
is a story=20
about Jim Bridger he is a hunting and finds a Glass mountain. dose =
anyone have a=20
link to this story. And is there such a mountain ?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bill Klesinger</FONT></P>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain
Date: 26 Nov 2001 09:22:40 -0800

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Bill,

Sorry, I don't have a link or book to reference but the story has basis =
in fact. There are a number of "glass" mountains around the volcanic =
west. There's one in Yellowstone National Park, (which may be the one =
Bridger is referring to and I'm not sure that Colter didn't see it too) =
which is really an obsidian "cliff face"  and then there is the one in =
Central Or. SSE of Bend. It is a part of Volcano National Monument and =
is more of an outpouring of chunks of Black Obsidian in the face of a =
jumbled lava flow. I doubt that Bridger saw that particular spot but I =
admit that I am not sure.

But yes there are such "mountains" though they are not a solid mountain =
of glass but large outcrops of obsidian which is very glass like in the =
purest forms. Sorry I don't have more specific info for you.

Capt. Lahti'



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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bill,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry, I don't have a link or book to =
reference but=20
the story has basis in fact. There are a number of "glass" mountains =
around the=20
volcanic west. There's one in Yellowstone National Park, (which may be =
the one=20
Bridger is referring to and I'm not sure that Colter didn't see it too) =
which is=20
really an obsidian "cliff face"  and then there is the one in =
Central Or.=20
SSE of Bend. It is a part of Volcano National Monument and is more of an =

outpouring of chunks of Black Obsidian in the face of a jumbled lava =
flow. I=20
doubt that Bridger saw that particular spot but I admit that I am not=20
sure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But yes there are such "mountains" =
though they are=20
not a solid mountain of glass but large outcrops of obsidian which is =
very glass=20
like in the purest forms. Sorry I don't have more specific info for=20
you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain
Date: 26 Nov 2001 12:23:13 EST

Bill, Here's a link to the California trail, but I haven't found the link to
the story yet. IIRC, this is an area through which Bridger traveled on his
way to Southern California. This 'Glass Mountain' is located near Modoc,
California, and like many of the others is made of Obsidian, formed from a
volcanic flow.   Barney

<A
HREF="http://www.gorp.com/gorp/publishers/wildernesspress/hik_nativca5.htm">
GORP - Glass Mountain - Native Californian Trails</A>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain
Date: 26 Nov 2001 12:43:26 EST

I don't know of a link but the story is that Bridger was looking for meat
when he saw an elk grazing in a beaver park.  He got off his horse and crept
within shooting distance.  Taking a good rest he shot.  The elk not only
didn't fall, he didnt run or look up.  The elk acted as if he hadn't heard
the shot.  Bridger crept closer and shot again with the same results.
Finally in desperation he ran at the elk intending to kill it with his knife.
 He ran smack into an invisible mountain made entirely of glass.  Looking on
the ground Bridger saw dead birds that had flown into the mountain and fallen
to the ground.  The shape of the mountain was such that it magnified the
image of the elk which was actually 25 miles away.

If you find a link with this story I'd like to have it.

Cheers,  Blue Lodge

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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain
Date: 26 Nov 2001 17:46:46 +0000

Howdy Fellas,
If I remember right, Ol' Gabe said he saw a elk and kept shootin' and
missin' 'cause it appeared to be closer than it really was through the glass
mountain. Now.....Most Obsidian is black and kinda hard to look through. How
was he so sure it was a Elk? Heck, it might have been a buffalo!
I don't know,
Don


>From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain
>Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:22:40 -0800
>
>Bill,
>
>Sorry, I don't have a link or book to reference but the story has basis in
>fact. There are a number of "glass" mountains around the volcanic west.
>There's one in Yellowstone National Park, (which may be the one Bridger is
>referring to and I'm not sure that Colter didn't see it too) which is
>really an obsidian "cliff face"  and then there is the one in Central Or.
>SSE of Bend. It is a part of Volcano National Monument and is more of an
>outpouring of chunks of Black Obsidian in the face of a jumbled lava flow.
>I doubt that Bridger saw that particular spot but I admit that I am not
>sure.
>
>But yes there are such "mountains" though they are not a solid mountain of
>glass but large outcrops of obsidian which is very glass like in the purest
>forms. Sorry I don't have more specific info for you.
>
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: contact request
Date: 26 Nov 2001 12:20:31 -0800

    Would Lanney Ratliff please e-write me off-digest again? But before you
do, scan your computer for viruses.
    The first post you sent me had the '32' virus and I deleted without
reading.
    Thanks, Frank
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders


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From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Whitetail vs. Mule Deer
Date: 26 Nov 2001 12:22:56 -0800 (PST)


according to paul dinsmore of sundog traders, s.e.
whitetail are the easiest.  great basin muleys the
hardest.  perhaps the riddle is in the moisture in the
region.

see dinsmore's hide tanning site, via native american tech.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1

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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: contact request
Date: 26 Nov 2001 12:45:04 -0800

Lanney,

I'm not savvy enough to say which virus it was but yes there was a virus
attached to that personal post to me and perhaps others this morning from
you. My eTrust antivirus program spotted it and wouldn't let me open the
file it was in. I ran the eTrust Program and it deleted the file.

As Frank says, you will need to clean your PC.

Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: contact request
Date: 26 Nov 2001 16:13:15 -0500

Lanney, I got it too... it was the 32NIMDA@MM and the 32BadTrans@MM .... Go
to McAfee.com and look up how to get rid oif it...

AD




> Lanney,
>
> I'm not savvy enough to say which virus it was but yes there was a virus
> attached to that personal post to me and perhaps others this morning from
> you. My eTrust antivirus program spotted it and wouldn't let me open the
> file it was in. I ran the eTrust Program and it deleted the file.
>
> As Frank says, you will need to clean your PC.
>
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Glass mountain
Date: 26 Nov 2001 15:29:57 -0600

I think the glass mountain story is repeated in "Give Your Heart to the
Hawks," I think by Winfred Blevins.

BTW that book is a great summary of practically everything having to do with
the mountaineers, and is the basis for the movie "Mountain Man"

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

>Bill Klesinger wrote:

>There is a story about Jim Bridger he is a hunting and finds a Glass
>mountain. dose anyone have a link to this story. And is there such a
>mountain ?




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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain
Date: 26 Nov 2001 14:49:07 -0700

At 09:31 AM 11/26/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>There is a story about Jim Bridger he is a hunting and finds a Glass
>mountain. dose anyone have a link to this story. And is there such a
>mountain ?
>Bill Klesinger

It's in the Alder book about Bridger and there's an obsidian cliff in
Yellowstone that some suspect is the place.

Allen


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From: "De Santis, Nick" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Glass mountain
Date: 26 Nov 2001 16:28:59 -0800

There is an obsitian flow east of Lassen National Park in Northern
California that has the name "Glass Mountain".  I picked up some nice pices
last summer.  Another one is East of Bend, Oregon called "Glass Butte".
Both of these are on public lands but out of the parks so you can pick up
the stuff.  ...Unlike the flow in the Newbruy Crater National Park just
South of Bend.

I have no clue if Jim was ever at any of these places though, as he forgot
to mention them to me!

Travler

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 1:49 PM


At 09:31 AM 11/26/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>There is a story about Jim Bridger he is a hunting and finds a Glass
>mountain. dose anyone have a link to this story. And is there such a
>mountain ?
>Bill Klesinger

It's in the Alder book about Bridger and there's an obsidian cliff in
Yellowstone that some suspect is the place.

Allen


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger & The Glass Mountain
Date: 26 Nov 2001 21:25:53 EST

Found this quote on the net at www.obsidianlab.com/poetry.  Seems it was the
Yellowstone area being referred to:          Barney

On the Discovery of Obsidian Cliff by Jim Bridger
"Coming one day in sight of a magnificant elk, he [Jim Bridger] took quick
aim and fired. To his amazement the elk remained immobile, not even flicking
an ear. He drew cautiously nearer and took a careful bead and again pressed
the trigger. The same result met his effort. A third and fourth shot produced
like results. Exasperated, he clubbed his rifle and rushed for the elk but
was brought up cold by a seemingly solid wall, which he discovered to be a
mountain of perfectly transparent glass, on the other side of which the elk
still grzaed, undisturbed. On further investigation the mountain proved to be
not only perfectly transparent, but was a veritable telescopic lens, and the
elk was in fact twenty miles beyond the glass wall."


V. Bright (1951 - Oregon Historical Quarterly 52:3-20) on the discovery of
Obsidian Cliff in Yellowstone National Park by Jim Bridger.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger & The Glass Mountain
Date: 26 Nov 2001 21:33:07 EST

This is from a teachers guide to the history of Yellowstone, available at=20
www.windowsintowonderland.org/trappers and traders   =20

Some of the trappers became known as tellers of "tall tales." If you would=20
like to illustrate how Jim Bridger popularized the wonders of Yellowstone,=20
but at the same time made them unbelievable, you can relate some of his=20
descriptions. Trappers were well known for telling tall tales to relate thei=
r=20
experiences in wild country, but Jim Bridger may have been the greatest of=20
all the "yarn spinners." He called Yellowstone "the place where Hell bubbled=
=20
up." He (and other trappers) talked of going to the petrified forest, where=20
the grass was petrified, the animals were petrified, and even the birds in=20
flight were petrified. They told of places where the animals were miniature=20
in size, caused by the shrinking qualities of Alum Creek. Then there were th=
e=20
fish that were cooked as they came from the bottom of certain springs to the=
=20
top. Hunters searching for elk were known to have bumped right into a glass=20
mountain. Were there some elements of truth behind Jim Bridger=E2=80=99s tal=
es?=20
People, especially in the east, began to wonder about this fanciful place.

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From: "Bill Klesinger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger & The Glass Mountain
Date: 26 Nov 2001 20:14:40 -0700

This thread has supplied a lot of info. Thanks to all that have added their
input.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
[e-mail]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:26 PM


Found this quote on the net at www.obsidianlab.com/poetry.  Seems it was the
Yellowstone area being referred to:          Barney

On the Discovery of Obsidian Cliff by Jim Bridger
"Coming one day in sight of a magnificant elk, he [Jim Bridger] took quick
aim and fired. To his amazement the elk remained immobile, not even flicking
an ear. He drew cautiously nearer and took a careful bead and again pressed
the trigger. The same result met his effort. A third and fourth shot
produced
like results. Exasperated, he clubbed his rifle and rushed for the elk but
was brought up cold by a seemingly solid wall, which he discovered to be a
mountain of perfectly transparent glass, on the other side of which the elk
still grzaed, undisturbed. On further investigation the mountain proved to
be
not only perfectly transparent, but was a veritable telescopic lens, and the
elk was in fact twenty miles beyond the glass wall."


V. Bright (1951 - Oregon Historical Quarterly 52:3-20) on the discovery of
Obsidian Cliff in Yellowstone National Park by Jim Bridger.


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The "V" word
Date: 26 Nov 2001 22:49:55 -0500

I apologize to any and all who got emails from me today.  It appears that I
got a virus from Lanney, and it just started sending emails to everyone in
my addressbook.  It was the W32.Bantrans@MM virus.  For those of you who may
have been infected, go to
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/[e-mail] and it
will tell you how to get rid of it. I am in contact with MCAFEE.COM since I
did have the latest update of McAfee running in the background and it should
have stopped it.  Please note that it was NOT sent thru either the
MountainMan List server or the MLML server... It was just personal emails to
people on both lists that I had corresponded with over the past many months.

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV



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From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Whitetail vs Mule Deer
Date: 26 Nov 2001 20:59:38 -0700

Allen:

I have one whitetail hide that I put in to soak and after a week I could
pick it up by a pinch of hair and it did not come out.  I let it dry out
since I did not have time to work it on the next week end and I was not
gonna fight with that bugger.  I have another that is in the freezer and
I will work it before the winter is over.  In other words I can tell you
better later but by then you will likely already have done your hides
too.  The only other observation I have is that the whiteys I have
appear to be more square instead of as rectanglar as a muley.  That
might be important if your project calls for it.

By the way you advised me to use a rope to put the final pulls on a hide
after braining, and just before it is dried out.  I had never had much
luck with using a rope but when used that late, when the hide is almost
dry it real does a nice job.  It puts a little fuzz on the piece and
breaks up any spots of epidermis that is still left.  Thanks.

Wynn Ormond


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From: "John & Nancy McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The "V" word
Date: 27 Nov 2001 07:07:34 -0600

Ad,
    I dumped McAfee last year because of their poor performance etc. I
installed Norton Anti-Virus instead and have been VERY pleased with it and
it's ease of use.   John




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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The "V" word
Date: 27 Nov 2001 08:52:33 -0500

*chuckles* I dumped Norton last year because of a virus that it missed...

Ad


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From: "John & Nancy McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The "V" word
Date: 27 Nov 2001 10:19:53 -0600

I guess that's what makes the world go around!! :-}


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 7:52 AM


> *chuckles* I dumped Norton last year because of a virus that it missed...
>
> Ad
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: virus warning
Date: 27 Nov 2001 10:38:35 -0800

    Today I have received four messages with viruses. One was from Randy
Zurcher the other three from Bob Schmidt.
    Both had:  "MtMan-List:contact request"  in the subject line.
    The virus names were:  W32.BadTrans.B@com   and  W32.BadTrans.B@MM
    My Norton's virus scan caught and repaired or quarantined both of these.
    I do not know if Randy Zurcher or Bob Schmidt are members of the
Hist-List but the MtMan reference in the subject line would seem to indicate
they are.
    I suggest anyone on this list update and enable their virus protection.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders


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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Old Glory!
Date: 27 Nov 2001 17:43:20 +0000

Dear Friends,
I just heard on the news that the flag from ground zero is flying over our
Marines near Kandahar! Don't that make a circle! Ya got the snakes on the
run boys! Give 'em Hell, that's exactly what they asked for.
A Proud father of a U.S. Marine,
Don Secondine

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory!
Date: 27 Nov 2001 22:41:12 +0000

Dear Friends,
  I tried to relay this information earlier today but for some reason it did
not go through. The flag that has been flying at ground zero is now flying
over our U.S. Marines south of Kandahar. Talk about things going full
circle. I sure am proud of those young people. The news said that the
N.Y.P.D. signed it and sent it over for our boys to "borrow" for awhile.
They want them to bring it back. Please excuse the off list comments, but, I
remain a proud father of a U.S. Marine,
Don Secondine

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: virus gone
Date: 27 Nov 2001 21:00:48 -0600

As many of you know,  my supposed bad boy McAfee virus scan (updated daily)
missed the Badtrans virus and my computer forwarded the sumbitch to
everybody on my address file.  That is a lot of folks.....including many
members of this list.  It's too bad that some folks have nothing better to
do than try to mess with other people's stuff....and in this case, try to
steal from them.
We fired McAfee and hired Norton.  Goodwife spent most of today installing
the new hired gun and cleaning up the computer.  Norton rooted out several
little hidden beasties and either fixed them or quarantined them so,
HOPEFULLY, my email will be safe.
I'm sorry for any inconvenience this caused.  Maybe Norton will be a better
protector.  That and I will be even more vigilant with my inbox.  I
routinely see posts with what I sense is a virus infected attachment and
dump it asap, but I got this from a cousin whose email is nearly always odd
and I opened it.  Dumbass.
Anybody who wants me to open an attachment needs to notify me in a separate
post (or phone call).  Otherwise I ain't opening it.  Pinkie swear.

Lanney Ratcliff



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From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: [scalpdance] virus gone
Date: 27 Nov 2001 22:16:01 -0500

"We fired McAfee and hired Norton"

>>Lanney
          I hate to say it... But, I told you so!.....<G>
D

"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he pass'd;
And the eyes of the sleepers wax'd deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
-George Gordon Byron, The Destruction of Sennacherib


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: virus gone
Date: 27 Nov 2001 22:35:38 -0500

Lanney,

I have been on this darned thing all night updating and trying to get rid of three diff. viruses.  I do not think it is just this site as it seems to be running all over the net.

Let us know how Norton works, I finally got the Mcafee to work and ended up with 110 files infected with one major file which means I have to use an email through the springmail site.  Can not do much without an sicexe file.

Glad my muzzleloader is not this complicated.

FVR










[e-mail] wrote:
> As many of you know,  my supposed bad boy McAfee virus scan (updated daily)
missed the Badtrans virus and my computer forwarded the sumbitch to
everybody on my address file.  That is a lot of folks.....including many
members of this list.  It's too bad that some folks have nothing better to
do than try to mess with other people's stuff....and in this case, try to
steal from them.
We fired McAfee and hired Norton.  Goodwife spent most of today installing
the new hired gun and cleaning up the computer.  Norton rooted out several
little hidden beasties and either fixed them or quarantined them so,
HOPEFULLY, my email will be safe.
I'm sorry for any inconvenience this caused.  Maybe Norton will be a better
protector.  That and I will be even more vigilant with my inbox.  I
routinely see posts with what I sense is a virus infected attachment and
dump it asap, but I got this from a cousin whose email is nearly always odd
and I opened it.  Dumbass.
Anybody who wants me to open an attachment needs to notify me in a separate
post (or phone call).  Otherwise I ain't opening it.  Pinkie swear.

Lanney Ratcliff



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From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: virus warning
Date: 27 Nov 2001 23:24:15 -0500

On Tuesday 27 November 2001 01:38 pm, you wrote:
>     Today I have received four messages with viruses. One was from
> Randy Zurcher the other three from Bob Schmidt.
>     Both had:  "MtMan-List:contact request"  in the subject line.
>     The virus names were:  W32.BadTrans.B@com   and
> W32.BadTrans.B@MM My Norton's virus scan caught and repaired or
> quarantined both of these. I do not know if Randy Zurcher or Bob
> Schmidt are members of the Hist-List but the MtMan reference in the
> subject line would seem to indicate they are.
>     I suggest anyone on this list update and enable their virus
> protection. Frank G. Fusco
> Mountain Home, Arkansas
> http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders

Better yet, use Netscape, Agent, or Pegasus for mail, and GET RID of
MickySoft's "Lookout" and "Lookout Express!!!" These 2 plus their Web
Explorer are responsible for most virus being able to affect a system.
Better yet, switch to Linux.

Fred

--
"...the system (Microsoft passport) carries significant risks to users
that are not made adequately clear in the technical documentation
available." - David P. Kormann and Aviel D. Rubin, AT&T Labs - Research
- - http://www.avirubin.com/passport

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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: virus gone
Date: 27 Nov 2001 22:35:04 -0600

Norton seem to work really fine.  We have used McAfee for a year or more and
just recently paid another $20 for another year of service.  It has caught
some viruses and seemed to be fine.  However, this new devil slipped through
un-noticed and when my wife updated it,  the thing still missed the virus.
She downloaded a free trial version of Norton  and, once installed, it
caught a whole coven of little beasties, including two that have to be
"quarantined" instead of removed.  But they are rendered effectively dead
and I can live with it.
Click on the address and pick the virus protection that matches your stuff,
download it and clean up your computer.
good luck
Lanney
http://nct.digitalriver.com/fulfill/0001.14

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 9:35 PM


> Lanney,
>
> I have been on this darned thing all night updating and trying to get rid
of three diff. viruses.  I do not think it is just this site as it seems to
be running all over the net.
>
> Let us know how Norton works, I finally got the Mcafee to work and ended
up with 110 files infected with one major file which means I have to use an
email through the springmail site.  Can not do much without an sicexe file.
>
> Glad my muzzleloader is not this complicated.
>
> FVR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
> > As many of you know,  my supposed bad boy McAfee virus scan (updated
daily)
> missed the Badtrans virus and my computer forwarded the sumbitch to
> everybody on my address file.  That is a lot of folks.....including many
> members of this list.  It's too bad that some folks have nothing better to
> do than try to mess with other people's stuff....and in this case, try to
> steal from them.
> We fired McAfee and hired Norton.  Goodwife spent most of today installing
> the new hired gun and cleaning up the computer.  Norton rooted out several
> little hidden beasties and either fixed them or quarantined them so,
> HOPEFULLY, my email will be safe.
> I'm sorry for any inconvenience this caused.  Maybe Norton will be a
better
> protector.  That and I will be even more vigilant with my inbox.  I
> routinely see posts with what I sense is a virus infected attachment and
> dump it asap, but I got this from a cousin whose email is nearly always
odd
> and I opened it.  Dumbass.
> Anybody who wants me to open an attachment needs to notify me in a
separate
> post (or phone call).  Otherwise I ain't opening it.  Pinkie swear.
>
> Lanney Ratcliff
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Glory!
Date: 28 Nov 2001 02:07:56 EST

I agree Don, you've something to be proud of!!.  I'm the proud son of a
retired US Navy Veteran.  Never could go in myself for medical reasons.
Always wanted to.  As you said, "Give 'em hell boys!!!"

Wade Smith
Boise, Id

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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory!
Date: 28 Nov 2001 11:59:22 +0000

Howdy John, Wade and all Friends,
  Thanks for your continued prayers and I am sure our young men and women
will do themselves proud.
Gratefully,
Don Secondine

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: virus gone
Date: 28 Nov 2001 09:22:43 -0500

Funny thing Lanney... I switched to McAfee last yearafter Norton (updated)
let a nasty one thru... McAfee did the same thing this time.... and I was
using the updated version (as of Friday 11/23) of it as well.  I think I'll
DL the trial version of Norton again and use them BOTH!!!  *laughs*

Ad


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory!
Date: 28 Nov 2001 09:25:48 -0500

SEMPER FI, Don... !!  I am a retired HMC/USN and spent 12 years with the
Marines as "Doc", and my heart is still with them.  My preayers and thoughts
are with your Son... Tell him Doc said GIVE'EM HELL!!!

Ad Miller


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From: "Bill Klesinger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Self protect against A Virus
Date: 28 Nov 2001 08:18:28 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C177E5.42385A10
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

A bit of a heads up on protection from a virus. No virus protection software
will be able to protect against all virus's. One of the best ways is to use
some common since when opening email. Do not open any mail with an
attachment for anyone. Unless you are positive they will not send a virus. I
am sure all of the people on this list do not wish to send a virus.

A couple of good rules to follow:

1. Do not open email with an attachment you did not request. That includes
your email from friends.

2. If you receive a email attachment unsolicited, before you open it ask the
person sending it to state what it is about.

3. Use the subject line to explain an attachment. EXAMPLE Subject: See you
at camp ,  see Attached map

Another thing you can do to protect your friends is to create a false email
address book entry. Such as:

use !000 as a contact first name  and wormguard as a last name  so you end
up with a address book entry like this
!000@wormguard   this should be the very first entry in your address book.

What will / should happen is if you get a virus that tries to use your
address book to resend email this address is bogus and most servers will not
continue.


Bill Klesinger, CCNA, MCSE, MCT



------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C177E5.42385A10
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D640433814-28112001>A bit =
of a heads up=20
on protection from a virus. No virus protection software will be able to =
protect=20
against all virus's. One of the best ways is to use some common since =
when=20
opening email. Do not open any mail with an attachment for anyone. =
Unless you=20
are positive they will not send a virus. I am sure all of the people on =
this=20
list do not wish to send a virus. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D640433814-28112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D640433814-28112001>A =
couple of good=20
rules to follow:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D640433814-28112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D640433814-28112001>1. Do =
not open email=20
with an attachment you did not request. That includes your email from=20
friends.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D640433814-28112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D640433814-28112001>2. If =
you receive a=20
email attachment unsolicited, before you open it ask the person =
sending it=20
to state what it is about. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D640433814-28112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D640433814-28112001>3. Use =
the subject=20
line to explain an attachment. EXAMPLE Subject: See you at camp ,  =
see=20
Attached map </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D640433814-28112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D640433814-28112001>Another thing you=20
can do to protect your friends is to create a false email address =
book=20
entry. Such as:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D640433814-28112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D640433814-28112001>use =
!000 as a=20
contact first name  and wormguard as a last name  so you end =
up with a=20
address book entry like this </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D640433814-28112001></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D640433814-28112001>!000@wormguard   this=20
should be the very first entry in your address book. =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D640433814-28112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D640433814-28112001>What =
will / should=20
happen is if you get a virus that tries to use your address book to =
resend email=20
this address is bogus and most servers will not =
continue.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D640433814-28112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D640433814-28112001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bill Klesinger, CCNA, MCSE, MCT </FONT></P>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: virus protection/virus gone
Date: 28 Nov 2001 10:24:12 -0800

Gang,

I'm gonna mention this one last time in consideration for those who would
really like to talk history instead.

I have been using Computer Associate's eTrust Antivirus and other components
of their package for a couple years now. They send me updates via email
almost daily. I've gotten three or four since Lanney sent out that post that
was infected or since the post that seemed to have come from Lanney arrived.
The program blocked any infection of my system and would not let me open up
the two infected files that I made the mistake of downloading. Then by
simply choosing to run the eTrust Program the files were identified and
automatically deleted. No more Virus!

The product is available on the net for about $49 with free trials and then
some discounts if you like it. At least for me since I have been a "free"
customer for a couple years. I don't need to buy another CD next year and
they automatically send me updates without me asking. For a PC illiterate
bum like me it's a godsend.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: virus protection/virus gone
Date: 28 Nov 2001 14:21:16 -0600

Roger
I don't think the important decimation of information about this
particularly bad virus has kept anybody from discussing history.  Everybody
should be aware that neither I nor anybody else sent this virus to anybody.
The virus sends itself to everybody on the infected computer's address file.
Unfortunately, my computer got infected and was used by the virus to spread
itself.
That is not the worse thing, of course.  The devil tries to access
passwords, etc and send that information back to the creep who invented the
virus in the first place.  For that reason it is important to get this
information out asap by whatever means are necessary so that the spread of
the virus can be stopped and no one is in danger of having his bank card
charged or his bank account looted.  Anybody who uses the internet to make
purchases should carefully check this out.  A virus (a Trojan worm,
actually....I think) like this can expose a ton of sensitive data and a bad
guy can cause untold misery.
I was using McAfee and was updated daily.  That leaves a daily window for
infection to occur and when I lapsed and opened a post from my cousin the
pooch was screwed, then and there.  I knew immediately that my computer was
infected and posted no one at all until I was certain that my venerable old
HP was clean.  Of course, by then the virus had done its dirty work and sent
itself to everybody on my address file.....hundreds.
From where the sun now stands I will open no unexpected attachments forever.
aargh!!
your brother
Lanney

> Gang,
>
> I'm gonna mention this one last time in consideration for those who would
> really like to talk history instead.
>
> I have been using Computer Associate's eTrust Antivirus and other
components
> of their package for a couple years now. They send me updates via email
> almost daily. I've gotten three or four since Lanney sent out that post
that
> was infected or since the post that seemed to have come from Lanney
arrived.
> The program blocked any infection of my system and would not let me open
up
> the two infected files that I made the mistake of downloading. Then by
> simply choosing to run the eTrust Program the files were identified and
> automatically deleted. No more Virus!
>
> The product is available on the net for about $49 with free trials and
then
> some discounts if you like it. At least for me since I have been a "free"
> customer for a couple years. I don't need to buy another CD next year and
> they automatically send me updates without me asking. For a PC illiterate
> bum like me it's a godsend.
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>



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From: "John & Nancy McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: worms
Date: 28 Nov 2001 14:45:34 -0600

Lanney,
    I have been told that one doesn't even have to open an attachment [ or
even their emails ] to get a worm. The slimy bastards should have their
computers removed and their electricity shut off!
    A rogue virus/ worm wiped out everything that I had stored last year, so
I know how frustrating this can be.
    John





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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: virus protection/virus gone
Date: 28 Nov 2001 14:18:52 -0700


>"Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> From where the sun now stands I will open no unexpected attachments forever.
>aargh!!

That system worked great for me for years! Then, last week, I traced some
problems to a NIMDA virus that either  launched itself from the _preview_
pane of Outlook, or was picked up from an infected website. So I spent a
whole week squeezing McAfee and Internet Explorer onto my rapidly-aging
computer. *sigh*

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


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From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory!
Date: 28 Nov 2001 22:39:36 +0000

Thank You "Doc",
  I will pass it on. I have been E-mailing my son although I am not sure he
is recieving them since they went "off ship". But he will get it eventually.
Your friend,
Don


>From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory!
>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:25:48 -0500
>
>SEMPER FI, Don... !!  I am a retired HMC/USN and spent 12 years with the
>Marines as "Doc", and my heart is still with them.  My preayers and
>thoughts
>are with your Son... Tell him Doc said GIVE'EM HELL!!!
>
>Ad Miller
>
>
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From: mitch post <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: virus discussion and other BS
Date: 28 Nov 2001 14:43:41 -0800 (PST)

I don't post often, but I feel the need. I have to
agree with Capt.Lahti-can the discussions about
virus,etc. go off-list? This seems to have turned in
to a chat room instead of a discussion group....back
in my doghouse-Mitch Post/Red Dog Trading Co...now in
SW Arkansas

=====
"RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL"

__________________________________________________
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From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: virus discussion and other BS
Date: 28 Nov 2001 17:24:41 -0600

I would hardly call this chatroom material (or BS, either, for that matter)
and no one is being prevented from posting history discussion email.   This
damn virus is still shooting around the net at warp speed and has the
potential to cause great harm to anybody who gets infected.  Many members of
this and other lists have been infected and a lot of them don't know it
and/or don't know how to fix their problem.   It will clear up shortly.  I
urge you to be patient til then.
Lanney Ratcliff.....still in Texas


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 4:43 PM


> I don't post often, but I feel the need. I have to
> agree with Capt.Lahti-can the discussions about
> virus,etc. go off-list? This seems to have turned in
> to a chat room instead of a discussion group....back
> in my doghouse-Mitch Post/Red Dog Trading Co...now in
> SW Arkansas
>
> =====
> "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL"
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
> http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
>
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>



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From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan AND LONG LEGS
Date: 28 Nov 2001 19:16:34 -0800 (PST)


I hate to alter the subject but there are those on
this discussion page whom know or have ran into the
same problem.
i just got an e-mail from a tanning 'guru' in New
Mexico whom claims the long legs on warshirts were
more bighorn sheep and antelope than deer.  he also
says the legs from the knee down are almost impossible
to make soft using the methods we know in
'braintanning'.
for really traditional leggings and warshirts it only
made since to skin em injun; those hairy faces sure do
waste some hide surface.

anyone out there got any experience tanning the legs
in brains that is?

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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory
Date: 28 Nov 2001 20:49:33 -0800 (PST)

Don, I know how proud youmust be.  Our oldest
grandson, U.S.M.C., Okinawa, just made Lance Corporal!
 The best to yours, and our prayers go with him as
well as our grandson

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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: virus protection/virus gone
Date: 29 Nov 2001 09:14:09 -0800

Lanney,

My opening remarks came across way stronger than I intended. My apologies.
My only point was that the anti-virus program I am using and have used for
the past few years works,and apparently (up to present) better than what can
be bought over the counter as Name Brand like Norton and McAfree, etc. It's
kinda like "that stove is hot don't touch it". After a while and they still
touch it, you decided to not say anything more. That's what I meant about "I
ain't gonna say this anymore". I've recommended Computer Associate's product
for a couple years now and was going through the exercise one last time. I'm
more than satisfied with what it has done for me and was just sharing one
last time. Everyone is free to do as they wish.

And I assure you that I have no objections to virus warnings on this list.
And I ain't opening any more attachments either, from where
the sun now stands! <G>

Your Brother always,
Roger



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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan AND LONG LEGS
Date: 29 Nov 2001 16:06:24 -0800

Clint Garrett wrote :
he also
says the legs from the knee down are almost impossible
to make soft using the methods we know in
'braintanning'.


Clint,
  I don't know who your 'braintanning guru' is, but I beg to differ with his
opinion.  The legs on deer skins certainly can be made soft.  All you have
to do break them properly.  It takes some considerable effort, but it can be
done.
Pendleton
" Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . "


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From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: collectors of'MUZZLELOADER' magazine
Date: 29 Nov 2001 16:45:14 -0800 (PST)


Excuse me gents for not knowing the correct procedure
to start a thread; but i have a question.

Does anyone out there have a collection of
'MUZZLELOADER' magazine; speacificly 1981-1986?

I'm looking for the 'classic Bowie' that was made from
a bronco truck leaf spring(about 15 inches X 2 1/2
lbs.  anyone with that magazine responding would be appreaciated.

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From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: collectors of'MUZZLELOADER' magazine
Date: 29 Nov 2001 21:39:08 -0800


> Does anyone out there have a collection of
> 'MUZZLELOADER' magazine; speacificly 1981-1986?

Clint,

The publishers of the mag. have a collection of them and let back issues go
for a few bucks. I don't have any that go back that far.

I'll be setting my subscription to "digest" in a few minutes and heading out
"double OO dark" in the morning for another try at wheatfield whitetails.
Wish my skill and knowledge! See ya all in a few days.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls
Date: 29 Nov 2001 22:28:56 -0800 (PST)


capt.,
    i must correct you about BAKER'S video; he used
walnut hull dye mixed with linseed oil to paint his
cloth/canvas.  technically it may have not been dyed
as we usually soak objects but it did absorb the
walnut color.

really appreaciated yore comments about my canvas
knowledge and ignorance.

the waxed canvas had to be used as it was most likely
cheaper than beeswax; as for documentation as you said
it may be difficult to find.  but i'm sure some
eastern pioneers waxed ponchos for rain as the east
varies about 40-75% moisture.  and all mountain men
came from an eastern heritage for the most part.
somebody had to wax a cloth since they moved so
regularly in trapping; fronzen and wet canvas is no
fun. i know i hear those quote about they all slept
under deadfalls, yet in their eastern homelands they
would be vary wet; plus the damp gear.

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From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "Metis" ???
Date: 30 Nov 2001 08:10:31 -0800 (PST)

How do you pronounce it ???
 Is it me tis,like the moon of Mars, or ma-tees ??
 I have been reading a couple of books by Alfred
Silver,
 "Lord of the Plains" and "Where The Goast Horse
Runs", He also has "Red River Story" ( I don't have
yet.
 These seem to be "historical fiction", "kinda" like
Terry C. Johnstons books but are pretty good reads.
 He has added some "color" to the history of the
times.
 George

=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:off to hunt
Date: 30 Nov 2001 09:39:05 -0600

Cpt L---
kill a big one pard---leaving myself this morning to go south and try my
luck with my bow---muzzle loading season and rifle season is over till 2
dec here---but bow season is on---got to run myself---best to you pard
have a good and safe hunt---and make meat---


Hawk---


On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:39:08 -0800 "rtlahti" <[e-mail]> writes:
>
> > Does anyone out there have a collection of
> > 'MUZZLELOADER' magazine; speacificly 1981-1986?
>
> Clint,
>
> The publishers of the mag. have a collection of them and let back
> issues go
> for a few bucks. I don't have any that go back that far.
>
> I'll be setting my subscription to "digest" in a few minutes and
> heading out
> "double OO dark" in the morning for another try at wheatfield
> whitetails.
> Wish my skill and knowledge! See ya all in a few days.
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
> ----------------------
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> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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From: mitch post <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls
Date: 30 Nov 2001 08:40:56 -0800 (PST)


--- Clint Garrett <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> capt.,
>     i must correct you about BAKER'S video; he used
> walnut hull dye mixed with linseed oil to paint his
> cloth/canvas.  technically it may have not been dyed
> as we usually soak objects but it did absorb the
> walnut color.

 Clint-watch the video ONE MORE TIME...Baker uses
linseed oil mixed with a pigment-red ochre,I think-NOT
walnut hulls. He also mention a yellow pigment. Watch
the video one more time....Mitch Post in SW Arkansas

=====
"RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL"

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From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ruxton
Date: 30 Nov 2001 15:22:13 -0700

I have been reading RuxtonÆs Wild Life in the Rocky Mountains down
loaded from DeanÆs wonderful site.  I find myself curious about what
brought Ruxton to Mexico and why he went to the mountains.  Also how
long afterward did he write his story dwon?  Other than he was there in
1846-47 instead of pre 1840 is there any other weaknesses to his
accounts?  In short does anyone have some information about Ruxton?

Wynn Ormond


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From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hunting shirts
Date: 30 Nov 2001 15:33:08 -0700

I may be jumping the gun but now that I have three hides brained I am
getting excited about making a buckskin hunting shirt.  So I am looking
for suggestions or tips.  For those of you who have already made one
what would you do different?  Is it important to keep all the hides with
the head in the same position before cutting out or is it alright to
rotate the leather?  How many strands of lenin thread are best to sew
with?  Or should I use artificial sinew? (Sorry I just couldnÆt resist
that one.)

Sorry to say but this wont be the last time you will here about this
project.


Wynn Ormond


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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re :MtMan-List: "Metis" ???
Date: 30 Nov 2001 15:41:51 -0700

 > How do you pronounce it ???
>  Is it me tis,like the moon of Mars, or ma-tees ??

I always flub & say may-TEE, but wiser heads and my Canadian Oxford
Dictionary both say it's properly pronounced MAY-tee (think "matey").

I'm jealous about your Alfred Silver books--I was hoping to try some over
Christmas holidays, but both Amazon.com and Chapters.indigo.ca say that all
his titles are temporarily unavailable. *sigh*

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred




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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hunting shirts
Date: 30 Nov 2001 19:20:03 -0800

Wynn wrote ;
  Or should I use artificial sinew? (Sorry I just couldn't resist
that one.)

>>Ye Gads ! ! !
Wynn,
  It is very important to run the hides all in the same direction, because
the skins will stretch differently in different directions.  It's usually
best to have the head end of the hide at the top of the garment.  Good luck
!
Pendleton
" Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . "


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From: "Terrance Luff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: metis??
Date: 30 Nov 2001 20:25:50 -0700

  I would have to agree with angela on metis.
on the state side metis the history books and societies show and say to say
May Tee. some of the native amer say may tis. in some case's metis will say
Ma Chif , this seems to be a tutle mountain chipewa metis. most of your
authors use that word to identify the metis language.
your books by alfred silver are realy good on metis history. i have often
used the statement silver and terry johnsons comparson, with metis
history forms.

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