Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas leggings - and how to preserve outfit
Date: 03 Apr 2001 10:06:25 -0400
Ho Camp,
I know that some of you out there use canvas for leggings. I made some with some canvas duck that was given to me recently. I put a fringe on them and becasue they were so stiff ran them through the washer to loosen them up. WHOA!!! Pretty big mass of strings had unraveled when I took them out this a.m. to check them (Breechcloth was same way but that fuzzy edge will feel right nice!) I can tell that several washings will take quite a bit of length off due to unraveling and my finge will be nothing but hanging threads! Stitching slows it down but it will go eventually!. Ithought maybe some of you who make of repair period clothing there any way to treat the material to minimize or prevent this? Checked a lot of websites and the local library and the sources there mainly have info on patterns and styles...not so much on preservation. Thanks in advance.
-C.Kent
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Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas leggings & will mid-thigh be PC for RMFT persona?
Date: 03 Apr 2001 15:05:54 -0400
> It appears that what you might have been trying to do was duplicate the
> appearance of "leather leggings" in canvas. I don't see how that can be
> carried off without them looking "kinda funny".
Capt. Lahti is right - I did what research I could with the limited resources I could (our local library has a complete set of the encylopedia of Native Americans, but that gives only a gloss over of clothing styles!) I did the web search of sutlers and noticed several showed pictures of northern plains style leggings with fringe "available in leather, canvas or linen". I jumped when I should have stayed and looked for a while!!! I am trying to pertray a RMFT persona who is back east for an extended visit before returning to the Rocky Mtn.s. I hate to just ask...I have rather come to enjoy the research. But, Capt., in your opinion, would the estern woodlands style leggings go over for that persona?. I could very easily cut off the fringe and paint them. They are currently straight cut at a few inches above mid-thigh. I like the extra canvas (lotsa briar patches to meander into while doing night tacticals around our neck of the woods! <BG>) I have noticed mid-calf breech!
cloths in many era paintings and a few written articles so I made it that way.
>
> An additional thougth since it appears you will wear leggings with a breech
> clout, make them of canvas, pull on coming up to mid thigh only, cut
> straight across at the top, suspended with a thin thong to the belt on each
> side and decorative leg ties of leather or quilled or embroideried, and
> paint the leggings in the style of eastern Indian leggings, ie. a solid
> color with very little other color trim except what you can do tastefully in
> colored ribbon. No fringe uless it is an added element of "dangles", "cone
> tassles" etc.
Also, if the good Capt. or anyone else could point me to any known resources for pc colors and coloring materials for the cloth (currently VERY khaki till I find some RIT dye remover) I would love to get a jump on painting them and the breechcloth!!! Rest assured, I will be doing my web research in the meantime as well!!!
By the way, I did make modest three shooting bags and a ball pouch with the scraps and these came out very nicely with a neat fray after the wash!!!!
Thanks for all!
-C.Kent
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leather Breaches & Period Eye Glasses
Date: 06 Apr 2001 19:40:13 -0400 (EDT)
Sent: April 5, 2001 8:22:19 PM GMT
But from the early colonial days thru the 1700 riding breechs were leather usually buff color (off white to light tan). Somewhere I have documentation of George Washington'w deershin breeches but I can not lay my hands on it at the moment. As my wife and I ride horses and do Eastern F&I and Rev War and Long Hunter I am currently on a mission to get enough matched bark tanned deer shins to have a proper set of leather button fly (French Fly) 1750's
breeches made.
_______________________________
Mr. Oaks I have a pair of buff color (off white) breeches that are believed to have belonged to Marino Medina and last worn by his son Louis Papa at the turn of the century or right after it from newspaper photos of him riding his white horse and wearing the breeches at a Loveland Colo. parade in the early 1900's.
Medina was very proud of his commerical tanned coat and breeches that where manufactured in a factory in St Louis MO or possibly CA from what Charley Hanson figured.
So if your doing fur trade period, breeches would fit right in, for years we always figured this covering was much earlier and not proper.
Thanks for your time, take care.
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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As most can agree Brain Tanned leather is the choice of most these days, It
would seem to me that it is more in use today then by pilgrims and camp
tenders during the 1800 to 1840s. The custom of the Fur companies during the
period was to keep there men broke and owing money to the company. There for
I would suggest that the shoes, shirts and leather breaches/trousers were
made by manufacturers back east for sale to the company men.
In order for a trapper to become free he would have to pay off the company
and not purchase any more than he had too, this to me would force him to
trade with Indians for his clothing if he did not have a wife to make them.
Many years ago I attended a Civil War Reinactors meeting and found that
there were more officers then foot soldiers. I would think that comercial
made clothing from the period would include leather that is not brain
tanned.
Just a few thoughts.
YMOS
Ole # 718
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Ole,
Your correct, no different that decades later with the coal miner debt bill to the company.
Look at Grant's pouch book, Pennsylvania clothing books, military reference books and so on, all show commerical tanned articles from small pocket books, sewing kits, hunting pouches, all the way through a large variety of factory made clothing for those that could afford it. That's the key "those that could afford it", in the case of the mountainman, most where already in over their head in debt to the company they where with.
At the end of the season there where few rich men after all the bills where paid and new items purchased for the next season, sounds like today doesn't it. We have the lotteries today and how many come up rich on that game compared to how many paid for the winners, same back then a few trappers turned businessmen made the bucks while the rest got by and made them richer.
Tanners where big in the east like in Europe, Matt Richards could tell us more on that subject, being in the business and I believe if you look in pass discussions one would find reference that he has made about commerical leather.
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">Tom, As to your comments about...<FONT size=2> "educated mountain men" . There are many good first hand accounts available by these "white savages".. It is amazing to learn how educated many of them where. If we were to believe Hollywood's version of history these books would be full of ' X s'. Read; Zenas Leonard, Osborne Russell, James Ohio Pattie, Jim Kirker, James Clyman, Jed Smith, Rufus Sage, Lewis Garrard, Gabriel Franchere, Charles Larpenter, etc..... Lots of good writers among the Mountain of Old..... hardtack</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing)
Date: 10 Apr 2001 17:54:39 -0400 (EDT)
American Fur Co. records indicate that voyaguers often stripped down to nothing but a breechclout. They often had to drag their loads through long stretches of swamp and marsh, depending on the time of the year. Spring
travel was wet, and summer travel was just as hard because the water tables were low and the goods had to be dragged through the river bottoms in many areas. Time of the year was a great factor in transporting goods.
Dave Kanger
----------------------
Dave,
Just look at your part of the country, then go south below Washington MO on the Missouri River in summer, the bugs would drive one crazy, when you sweat it seems to draw everything in the area. Between heavy loads, time schedules and bugs, it's amazing they didn't go crazy with the conditions.
With our life styles (some not conditioning themselves) we have seen many want-a-bee's (trying to reenact these journies) give up because of the mentioned conditions, had one guy just flat walk off leaving his gear that he couldn't carry, found out later he caught a ride from a local to a bus station and went home. Wonder what he would have done if living in the time period he was doing, lay down and die !
Like you say the time of the year can make a world of difference in our comfort levels.
Thanks for your time, take care.
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://pages.about.com/conner1/
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
"Rival the best - Surpass the rest".
___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing)
Date: 12 Apr 2001 11:00:35 -0400 (EDT)
------Original Message------
I just wanted to mention that they interviewed Stephen Ambrose on tv this morning. He is donating $1M from the sales of "Undaunted Courage" to lead in the fight to have the dams removed from the Mo River and return it to it's free flowing state. They classified it as the most endangered river in the US. The fight coincides with L&C's 150th anniversary to take advantage of increased public awareness................
It's about time that they correct some of the problems with these damns that have been built on this river, have canoed it many times from various locations.
Another river that feeds the Missouri and is worst than the Missouri is the Platte, one will do two portages a day from a few hundred yards to a 1/2 mile in getting around modern damns and water projects.
Noted these water projects are needed for farming several of the designs on some are not only poor but also causing more problems with flooding and causing back washes do to the limited flow.
In "Wau Bun" which was the autobiography of John Kinzie's wife, there is mention of mosquitos while making the rounds up by Green Bay in WI. The whites were flailing about during a parlay and the indian made a comment that they move around too much. They should just sit still, and occasionally scrape off a handful as they collect on they body. There is much talk about
Indians covering themselves with bear grease, but I don't think this was true. I believe that they just tolerated them.
In certain areas, this is possible, but in others it is maddening. When in the woods in Illinois or Wisconsin, they seldom bother me, and I just ignore them also. But I have been canoeing up in Angella's country, and they are maddening. As dusk approaches, the noise of the mosquitos builts like the
morning traffic during rush hour. If you get more than 50 yards away from the shoreline, they are unbearable. If you drop your drawers to answer nature's call, no matter how quickly you do it, wiping yields blood and squashed bugs. When portaging a canoe, they collect inside and attack your face. The flies will home in on any sore on your body and constantly attack it. My partner didn't wear a hat the first year we went. He had a place on the top of his head where he had bumped it. After nine days afield, it was the size of a half dollar and was an oozing open sore.
We have experienced the same problems, one's wearing glasses (period of course) really have problems with the mosquitos geting between the inside of the glass and the eye lids. At "Tavern Cave" (L&C stayed there) located below Washington MO about 2-1/2 to 3 miles inland off that river - the Missouri, the black nats and mosquitos are so bad that covering up doesn't help, have ventured in several times knowing how bad it will be - trying different non-period sprays and have found that "garlic" works the best - eaten for several days before going in and also rubbed on uncovered areas. This is what the Corps of Discovery used in these areas and it works fairly well, those old boys knew what to do, of course they where there every day and had years of trial and error to figure it out.
Going "indian" seems to be counterproductive to pest control. I would think that the mountain man or voyageur would cover as much of his body as possible. When we get back to "time of the year" is would seem logical that different garb was also worn during different times of the year as added protection. Either that, or there were not as many insects then as there are now.
On pest control I would think that the numbers may have been the same if not worst in the past, with all the sprays and projects that have been done over the last 100 years trying to keep the different diseases under control that are carried by the different insects. That's just a guess, no documentation.
Thanks for your thouhghts Dave.
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Since I missed the beginning of this 'rant'... let me offer my airheaded half ducat's worth........
my camp name was/is ''shameless'' ::LOL::
why? because of a statement I made.
''hel, I have NO shame, I will ask anyone to sign my petition"
that petition was to make a spot in the state of colorado a wilderness area. I eventually happened, the eagles nest is forever closed to motorized vehicles.
That nick could have and has been taken in more than one way. Usually it gets corrected in right quick fashion and not by me. <G>
In my case, I do NOT tease people unless I like them..
for the most part nicknames usually come from something valid.
my dance name of Sabella (I do middle eastern dancing) was shortened by a BF to 'bella. Italian for 'beautiful woman'...
now he and i no longer speak and truth be told if he and I were
in a room together, HE would not come out alive. <BEG>
but the nick still sticks.
It is my own opinion, but not that of my evil twin skippy, that those who balk at affectionate or teasing or even earned nicknames, especially in this particular scenario... need to get a life. I
mean, if the nick were a nasty put down, well, yes, it might be offensive.
I have been involved with AMM and buckskinning since 1976, not once have I ever seen or heard of anyone give a nick that was done in a malicious manner meant to hurt.
HI Mike! now I am gonna go back to my lurking...
and I am glad to be 'home'... signed off whilst I made a move a yr ago..
lost the url... sigh...... well I _am_ a blonde..
'bella
susanne
Possum Hunter wrote:
> D. Miles wrote on 4/13/01 19:09:
>
> >Yeah, lets be like the rest of the world and worry about bruising someone's ego a little, or God forbid, a camp name or a little ribbing might damage ones "self esteem"
>
> OH NO! Here I go agreeing with the blacksmith again! <VBG>
> A Person would have to have a pretty low self image to be bothered by a camp name. A person that depressed should not be around all of them black powder guns anyway. They might hurt themselves.
> >
> >join a sewing circle, but beware, them old wimmin have sharp tongues!!!
>
> Go ahead and say it Dennis. Them old wimmon are mean as hell!
> >
> > Most of the people in this hobby are the salt of the earth,
>
> I cannot think of a better group of people to be around. Most will do anything to help a new person.
> >
> >and a damned fair amount of them will tell you what they think in a New York minute,
>
> This goes double when you ask for it!
> >
> >so if you can't take the heat, well, stay the hell outta the kitchen.
>
> Well said
>
> Possum
>
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<DIV>Tom, How tall are you?....... I'm over 6', so I find an 8' X 8' (which is actually smaller, if commercially made) a bit small for me. If I roll up in an 8 x 8, I tend to have blanket, etc... hanging out. If I move a bit at night, again..I find myself exposed. Therefore, I prefer a 10' x 10' ( which is really closer to 9 x 9). For this same reason I like a 5-6 pt blanket, rather than a 4 pt blanket. After freezing my toes in the Sierras with a 4 pt. , I ordered a 6 pt as soon as I got home. If weight is a problem, I have learned a few tricks. Hot rocks, warmed near the fire can take the edge off of a cold night. Also , I made myself a pair of center seam mocs out of sheep skin with the hair inside. Wearing these at night will protect you from exposed toes when you pull the blanket over your head at night. Also, these mocs are nice for the nocturnal bladder empty!
ing. They are nice to wear inside a greased pair of 'over mocs' in cold, wet weather. Now, my question... does anyone have experience with 'paired blankets' ( two 3-4 pt blankets still attached at the ends)? Sounds like a cure for cold toes to me? My 2-4 cents worth, depending on current exchange rates. hardtack</DIV>
In a message dated 4/21/01 10:23:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
olebjensen@earthlink.net writes:
> The Pyramid tent has been excepted without much complaint, but it has yet to
>
Wedge tent or tarp or wall tent or marquee all are documentable (DEPENDING ON
YOUR PERSONNA) and cause not nit picking, holley ere than thou problems. Get
a Peter Marques "Tentsmiths" bell back wedge or one of their tarps. Work
well. no lip and last.
YMOS
C.T. Oakes
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/21/01 10:23:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>olebjensen@earthlink.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The Pyramid tent has been excepted without much complaint, but it has yet to
<BR>be authenticated to the fur trade. </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Wedge tent or tarp or wall tent or marquee all are documentable (DEPENDING ON
<BR>YOUR PERSONNA) and cause not nit picking, holley ere than thou problems. Get
<BR>a Peter Marques "Tentsmiths" bell back wedge or one of their tarps. Work
<BR>well. no lip and last.
<BR>
<BR>YMOS
<BR>
<BR>C.T. Oakes
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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In a message dated 4/22/01 12:38:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
wanders66@hotmail.com writes:
>
I think you will find that anything less then 10x10 is to small in a heavy
rain. Mine is 11x11 and big enough to get in out of the wet for me, my son
and our gear.
YMOS
C.T. Oakes
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/22/01 12:38:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>wanders66@hotmail.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What size tarp do you reccommend for </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>I think you will find that anything less then 10x10 is to small in a heavy
<BR>rain. Mine is 11x11 and big enough to get in out of the wet for me, my son
<BR>and our gear.
<BR>
<BR>YMOS
<BR>
<BR>C.T. Oakes</FONT></HTML>
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About a year ago I switched from a homemade concoction which
I had used faithfully for a long time to plain water (followed
by a heavily greased patch) and the barrels clean just as good.
Probably better since some lubricant remains in the pores of the
metal instead of getting dissolved. The only thing I would add
is that I use hot water when I can since it evaporates quicker.
Tom
Todd wrote:
>
> On another discussion board, this was discussed at length by a chemist, who's also a black powder enthusiast. He can tell you with great precision the salts and residues left behind by black powder, and has run several studies to determine the best cleaner. He uses water. Plain, cold, water. 100% of the residue of black powder is water soluble. Everything else is just extra. I seem to have the best results using plain water.
>
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<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">In Old California, Grizzly Bears were quite common. They were dangerous 'pests'. Bears and Wild Bulls are natural enemies, they had plenty of both in Old California. As was stated, the Vaqueros would rope a grizzly with their reattas...then bring the bear to a stadium of some sort. The Bear would be tethered by one leg, then a wild bull would be herded into the stadium. Then a fight to the death would insue, with betting on the winner being part of the sport. hardtack</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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In a message dated 4/26/01 3:23:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
massage@networld.com writes:
> I have heard of other Massage Therapists in the last few years having a tent
>
I have never seen one openly advertizing or set up at a rendezvous or fort or
camp. I do know of one therapist that takes a portable table/chair and does
treatments in the privacy of a tent out of sight like my cooler. The
equipment and the treatment is not part of the "Authentic Reinactment" and
the clients are refered by friends and clients via word of mouth. As an
independent contractor this allows combining work (needed to pay for play)
with the play. But it is not a Traders Row activity and most of the other
reinactors don't know it is even available.
Y.M.O.S.
C.T. Oakes
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/26/01 3:23:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>massage@networld.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I have heard of other Massage Therapists in the last few years having a tent
<BR>set up for doing chair massages on Trader's Row at a few various rendezvous.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>I have never seen one openly advertizing or set up at a rendezvous or fort or
<BR>camp. I do know of one therapist that takes a portable table/chair and does
<BR>treatments in the privacy of a tent out of sight like my cooler. The
<BR>equipment and the treatment is not part of the "Authentic Reinactment" and
<BR>the clients are refered by friends and clients via word of mouth. As an
<BR>independent contractor this allows combining work (needed to pay for play)
<BR>with the play. But it is not a Traders Row activity and most of the other
<BR>reinactors don't know it is even available.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Y.M.O.S.
<BR>
<BR>C.T. Oakes
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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