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From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 09:08:17 EST SWcushing@aol.com writes: > Haaaaaaaa..... Don't know what all the whining is about!..... ya could be > called "Magpie"!>> It is better than "Stinking Water"! Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 08:32:24 -0600 Thanks all for the come-backs to my question. So, for now, I remain, Frank [camp nameless] Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <Ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 10:09:26 -0800 Frank (camp nameless) Fusco, Don't feel bad, there are a few of us nameless ones out there. I am Frank (camp nameless) Rago. Now, I have been called many names, but most would not be appropriate to be called at a rendezvous. or any social gathering. A name will happen upon me oneday, maybe tommorrow, maybe in 5 years. When it does it will be a deserving name appointed to me by my fellow buckskinners and primitive archery friends. But until then, I'm just Frank., or one of those un-appropriate names. Good Luck, Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 6:32 AM > Thanks all for the come-backs to my question. > So, for now, I remain, > Frank [camp nameless] Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> Subject: MtMan-List: Smokes?? Date: 01 Dec 2000 09:10:01 -0600 Capt. Lahti' wrote about people and their butts...... I agree whole-heartedly about "the proper disposal of smoking material". I've been participating in Inipi ceremonies up here for a long, long time and the biggest problem we have, whether it is Native kids at their first Sweat or the "uninitiated whiteman" is teaching people respect. At Inipi, that fire is sacred and that is explained to first-timers - it isn't a "garbage disposal". People are told once, and reminded once. If they chuck a butt in the fire a third time, the Lodge takes care of them - if they are not going in the Lodge, they are asked to leave. I smoke too much but I always have something to put my butts in so they are out of sight and I insist others do the same. I don't tolerate disrespect well, be it against me, someone else, or the place we are in. Someone responded yesterday about a different method of quitting but I deleted the List before I copied the address - would that person please contact me again. Na-ya-whe Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 08:39:38 -0800 > It is better than "Stinking Water"! > > Ghosting Wolf Is that one of those "temporary" names you get like when you have "foraged" some wild asparagus? <G> Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 11:52:42 EST In a message dated 12/1/00 8:44:12 AM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << > It is better than "Stinking Water"! > > Ghosting Wolf Is that one of those "temporary" names you get like when you have "foraged" some wild asparagus? <G> >> Haaaaaaa..... No, I think "Bead Shooter" is referring to "Stinking Water Steve".... Remember the keg of water I filled from a hose, and brought to Frog that made Tom Crooks barf and rusted your gun? I believe Tom thought that was a better name for me than Magpie.....<VBG> Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes?? Date: 01 Dec 2000 08:49:18 -0800 > I smoke too much but I always have something to put my butts in so they are > out of sight and I insist others do the same. I don't tolerate disrespect > well, be it against me, someone else, or the place we are in. Dianne, Thank you for taking my post in the manner it was offered and not taking personal offense since none was intended. It is hard to bring the subject up with most of us smokers since we feel put upon in todays "climate". I'm glad that you practice what you do and set a good example for the rest of us. > > Someone responded yesterday about a different method of quitting but I > deleted the List before I copied the address - would that person please > contact me again. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 5:47 AM > Dianne, > I quit 25 years ago and it was tough, I figured that I had to un learn the > same way I started. If you want to know how contact me off list. > YMOS > Ole # 718 I believe this is what you are looking for. Brother Ole, I would be interested in how you handled your addiction too. <G> I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: camp names/opinion Date: 01 Dec 2000 19:01:32 The subject of camp names has come up on this list several times before; always with various view points. I think it is important to realize that rendezvous names are a modern invention, rather than historical fact. Early documents refer to the men by their given names, not their "handles." There were a few nicknames circulating such as Ol' Gabe, Blanket Chief, Broken Hand, and a few others. However, most of these names were given by the natives. Some will argue that having a camp name helps them escape their modern identity, and become another person. If that is the case, pick a proper name common to the era, and build your personna around it. Be careful of romantic sounding indian names, although "Black Penis," has a nice ring to it! I have had a few names dropped on me over the years, and if they are given "across ther fire," they are supposed to stick. I have managed to drop them all. Cliff Tiffie _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes?? Date: 01 Dec 2000 14:25:53 EST In a message dated 12/1/00 10:13:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes: << that fire is sacred and that is explained to first-timers - it isn't a "garbage disposal". >> My wife feels the same about her fire. It is for cooking and as many campers across the NE will attest to her food preparation is a religion. If you put something in a cook fire it becomes one with the food (the smell or the chemicals/vapors). Many hard core smokers now carry hidden empty Sucrets tins to put their cigarette butts in rather than loose eating privileges at her fire. But no one I know would complain about another person smoking in camp unless the smoker is not respectful of others or the situation (i.e.: you would not light up on the march as part of a military unit at Ft. Niagara or Ft. Ti. But you could light up your pipe if you were in the militia or ranger units and march it. YHOS C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: moths and powder horns Date: 01 Dec 2000 17:42:11 EST Hi all, Got looking at some of powderhorns i own and found worm holes in some.OK let me pick your minds what do i do to rid my self of the worms attacking my horns.next thing i need to know whats a good old finish that i could use cover the horn with .and lets not say boiled linseed oil. hope you all can help.And as the name thing going i believe someone should give you the name for some thing that happened are you did.like how i got mine 330 conibear,beaver trapping . Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Camp names Date: 01 Dec 2000 17:02:47 -0700 For those who want an Authentic Indian Name of their own, go to http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/deaddog/ Good luck! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moths and powder horns Date: 01 Dec 2000 20:33:23 -0600 And as the name thing going i believe someone should give you=20 the name for some thing that happened are you did.like how i got mine 330 conibear Those dang conibear traps are mighty dangerous...you're lucky to have a = hand. Or do you? My uncle was a federal trapper for 35 years and he = can tell more stories than you remember. He is STILL leary of a = conibear. Lanney Ratcliff ps: His best story is not about trapping but how he ripped a big chunk = of meat off his middle knuckle by busting a Shore Patrolman in the mouth = on VJ day, precipating a near riot in San Diego. =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 01 Dec 2000 22:13:38 -0500 (EST) USA Today, Fri. 12-01-00, p.13A. Norfolk, Virginia - Beavers were hunted to near extinction in Virginia by 1911, but the population was restored 30 years later by importing beavers. But now beavers have become victims of their own success. They have grown so strong that the Department of Agriculture's Wildlife Services has been hired to kill and control 2,000 beavers next year. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: ... [OT] ... Man, Dog (and Murphy) Date: 01 Dec 2000 22:30:32 -0500 (EST) Detroit News, Fri. 12-01-00, p.4G (article by Fred Girard) Police confirm that a man from Bay City was trying to pose his dog with his shotgun for a snapshot, making it appear the dog was a hunter. Somehow the dog fired the gun, wounding the man in the leg. Since the man was not actually hunting at the time, or on his way to or from the field, the injury will not be included in state statistics, DNR hunter safety administrator Suzanne Koppelo said. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 01 Dec 2000 23:28:39 EST Hard to believe, but I think the lil buggers can survive just about anywhere. Here in SC, my father took a walk on the "back 40" several years ago and noticed that we had a pond that was not there before. Beavers had moved in and damned up our creek. Nice pond, too. Unfortunately, we got a real heavy rain not long after (close to seven inches in 72 hours when a hurricane came thru lower state SC) and the dam and beavers were GONE! I have even seen them take up residence in a manmade pond by the roadside on the way to the local landfill. It is really nice to be quiet and watch them swim around till they spot you and go underwater!!!! Anyone ever had any luck trapping beaver? -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 01 Dec 2000 22:43:54 -0800 C.Kent, I trapped beaver once. A licenced trapper, friend of mine, took me out for a weekend. He spent the first afternoon teaching me. We checked his traps the next morning , and found a beaver. I skinned and butchered it. We ate it. That day I made a land set, and a water set, based on what he taught me. The next morning we checked our traps. Both of mine were 'sprung'. The water set got away, but the land set was holding a beaver for me. I shot it, close range with a pistol, then retrieved my beaver. I skinned and butchered that beaver. It was a good weekend, I learned alot. My friend was contacted by the Land Management people, and advised that this area was overrun with Mr Beaver. He was helping the land Dept., and profiting at the same time. Being a 'suburban' Mountain Man, I had mixed feelings about this experience. I ate the beaver, but with mixed emotions. I have to say , I didn't have a great appetite. I'm not used to killing something, ripping its skin off, butchering it, then eating it. But- I am very glad I had this experience. It is something I need to know , as a wanna be Mountain Man. If you have the opportunity- Do It!. Especially under these circumstances. These beaver needed to be culled, as the over population was damaging 100 year old cottonwoods. If we didn't take some beaver, the land mgt. people would have, and they wouldn't have used the animals. My friend marketed the hides, I learned alot. It was a good experience. Hope this story is of some use. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trapper@cillnet.com (Brad Everett) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 02 Dec 2000 07:06:27 -0600 Yea , I heard they used to trap a few back in the Old days! Trapper, Trek'n through time, backwards! ----- Original Message ----- Anyone ever had any luck trapping > beaver? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trapper@cillnet.com (Brad Everett) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 02 Dec 2000 08:07:39 -0600 Sorry bout that last post, just couldn't resist. Trapping Trapper, Trek'n through time, backwards! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 7:06 AM > Yea , I heard they used to trap a few back in the Old days! > Trapper, > Trek'n through time, backwards! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" <chand@alltel.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moths and powder horns Date: 02 Dec 2000 09:40:55 -0500 Got a suggestion for you taht works sometimes... make a mild solution of bleach and warm water and wash the horns to kipp the bacteria left by the moths... use a toothbrush on the pits and make sre they are cleaned out of all the dust and remaining bacteria. set them in the sun to air dry for a few hours. THEN get some johnson;s paste wax or any good wood paste wax and apply several coats of it, being sure to fillin the pits. remove all the excess AFTER it is DRY.. ALL of it..... then do it about twice more to make sure.. future moths won't even be tempted to chew the wax! IMHO Mark "Crooked Hand" Toigo /aka/ Wethlee-EnkΘ http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 5:42 PM > Hi all, > Got looking at some of powderhorns i own and found worm holes in > some.OK let me pick your minds what do i do to rid my self of the worms > attacking my horns.next thing i need to know whats a good old finish that i > could use cover the horn with .and lets not say boiled linseed oil. hope you > all can help.And as the name thing going i believe someone should give you > the name for some thing that happened are you did.like how i got mine > 330 conibear,beaver trapping . > > Traphand > Rick Petzoldt > Traphand@aol.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 02 Dec 2000 10:08:16 -0600 My blood brother, like me, is a programmer for a software firm. He = also works for the local land management bureaus here around Kansas City = trappin' beaver on the weekends and evenings. They punch holes in = levies, clog drainage ditches and flood fields, and are thick as theives = along the Missouri right now. He taught me to skin and flesh one fine = afternoon. I have to admit, it was a different experience, but one I = appreciated. Said pelt is now a cushion I sit on in camp, bad a job a = skinning as I did, it's still MINE, and something not every man can say = they've done. Right now is trapping season here in Missouri, and = he's saved his entire vacation to go run his lines. I reckon I'll see = him in a couple of weeks =3D) =20 I pesonally think he was born about 175 years too late. Todd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 02 Dec 2000 16:24:23 EST --part1_ae.dd8e8b6.275ac287_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did a TV program with the State Wildlife Dept.a few years back called a restocking program to successful. It was about Beaver. I showed them a half mile of county road under water. Deep enough I put my canoe in and floated over the fence on each side of the road, ( 5 wire). We have 77 counties and the are now listed as a nuisance in all counties. Again a few years back I trapped one area and in two weeks my partner and myself caught 72 beaver. We trapped this area for three weeks and it never slowed down, we just didn't count again. When we left there were still enough beaver you couldn't tell we had been there. Also the 330 conabear is a tough trap and you must be careful, but I have never heard of anyone losing an arm or any other body part to one. Nevertheless they can be dangerous, but then again so is water trapping of most any type. TrapRJoe --part1_ae.dd8e8b6.275ac287_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>I did a TV program with the State Wildlife Dept.a few years back called a <BR>restocking program to successful. It was about Beaver. I showed them a half <BR>mile of county road under water. Deep enough I put my canoe in and floated <BR>over the fence on each side of the road, ( 5 wire). We have 77 counties and <BR>the are now listed as a nuisance in all counties. Again a few years back I <BR>trapped one area and in two weeks my partner and myself caught 72 beaver. We <BR>trapped this area for three weeks and it never slowed down, we just didn't <BR>count again. When we left there were still enough beaver you couldn't tell <BR>we had been there. <BR> Also the 330 conabear is a tough trap and you must be careful, but I <BR>have never heard of anyone losing an arm or any other body part to one. <BR>Nevertheless they can be dangerous, but then again so is water trapping of <BR>most any type. <BR> <BR> TrapRJoe</FONT></HTML> --part1_ae.dd8e8b6.275ac287_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 02 Dec 2000 22:30:15 -0600 On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:20:43 -0500 "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> writes: > D > > "It doesn't matter HOW MANY "skydives" you've got behind you.. > Until you have stepped out of a door of an airplane in total > darkness > at twelve hundred and fifty feet wearing ninety-five pounds of > equipment and forty-two pounds of parachute. You are STILL a > leg...." > AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY____ hawk ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 03 Dec 2000 01:22:12 EST --part1_57.e49dc09.275b4094_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, Our local group of skinners (not AMM) has a naming ceremony held at Our local Rendezvous. some of the names that have been given are: Birdbrain, Nosedive, Rain Man, Stitcher, Wounded Elk( he's an amputee)and so on. these each Have stories behind them and are given much like the other groups, after being observed by your buddies. My "best" friend dubbed me "Sleeps Loudly" bout a year and a half ago. He was much too kind, truth be known. your servant, Sleeps loudly Smith Boise, Id --part1_57.e49dc09.275b4094_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Frank, <BR> Our local group of skinners (not AMM) has a naming ceremony held at Our <BR>local Rendezvous. some of the names that have been given are: Birdbrain, <BR>Nosedive, Rain Man, Stitcher, Wounded Elk( he's an amputee)and so on. these <BR>each Have stories behind them and are given much like the other groups, after <BR>being observed by your buddies. My "best" friend dubbed me "Sleeps Loudly" <BR>bout a year and a half ago. He was much too kind, truth be known. <BR> <BR> <BR>your servant, <BR> <BR>Sleeps loudly Smith <BR>Boise, Id</FONT></HTML> --part1_57.e49dc09.275b4094_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 15:51:57 -0500 --------------EE13DA69F0BA8474E269F937 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, I just came across this nice old looking trade axe (hatchet?) on Ebay and was wondering if anyone has heard of the name stamped on it and an approx. age. Thanks Manbear http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=514470679 --------------EE13DA69F0BA8474E269F937 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Hello list, <p>I just came across this nice old looking trade axe (hatchet?) on Ebay and was wondering if anyone has heard of the name stamped on it and an approx. age. <p>Thanks <br>Manbear <p> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=514470679">http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=514470679</a></html> --------------EE13DA69F0BA8474E269F937-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 16:58:06 -0500 Looks awful modern to me... The stamp is the reason I say this. . My opinion. Buyer beware D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 I Now Offer Gift Certificates ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matthew Hawley" <nastybeaver@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: please take me off the list Date: 03 Dec 2000 22:25:37 <html><DIV> <P>i am know moving so all you take care and remember to shoot straight and remeber your friends no matter were your at.</P> <P> always yours in muzzle loading</P> <P> white eagle<BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV>>From: hawknest4@juno.com <DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <DIV></DIV>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names <DIV></DIV>>Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 22:30:15 -0600 <DIV></DIV>>MIME-Version: 1.0 <DIV></DIV>>Received: from [198.60.22.7] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBBF31BA100A9400431D7C63C1607E6E10; Sat Dec 02 20:48:35 2000 <DIV></DIV>>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2)id 142Qzy-0003kQ-00for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 21:43:38 -0700 <DIV></DIV>>Received: from [63.211.172.66] (helo=m3.boston.juno.com)by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2)id 142Qzw-0003kL-00for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 21:43:36 -0700 <DIV></DIV>>Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"GN3Ej5kolelhCVIHNfbvRmINSUtsUUXk17lvU+Tio3Pzxy65Yrvz3w=="> <DIV></DIV>>Received: (from hawknest4@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id FQCB5EVM; Sat, 02 Dec 2000 23:42:04 EST <DIV></DIV>>From owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Sat Dec 02 20:49:02 2000 <DIV></DIV>>Message-ID: <20001202.224411.-3744483.3.hawknest4@juno.com> <DIV></DIV>>X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 <DIV></DIV>>X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-15 <DIV></DIV>>X-Juno-Att: 0 <DIV></DIV>>X-Juno-RefParts: 0 <DIV></DIV>>Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com <DIV></DIV>>Precedence: bulk <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:20:43 -0500 "Dennis Miles" <DEFORGE1@BRIGHT.NET> <DIV></DIV>>writes: <DIV></DIV>> > D <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>> > "It doesn't matter HOW MANY "skydives" you've got behind you.. <DIV></DIV>> > Until you have stepped out of a door of an airplane in total <DIV></DIV>> > darkness <DIV></DIV>> > at twelve hundred and fifty feet wearing ninety-five pounds of <DIV></DIV>> > equipment and forty-two pounds of parachute. You are STILL a <DIV></DIV>> > leg...." <DIV></DIV>> > AIRBORNE <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>ALL THE WAY____ <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>hawk <DIV></DIV>>________________________________________________________________ <DIV></DIV>>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! <DIV></DIV>>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! <DIV></DIV>>Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: <DIV></DIV>>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>---------------------- <DIV></DIV>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html <DIV></DIV> <P></P>(WHITE EAGLE) <BR><br clear=all><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 19:36:34 -0500 I Wrote: "Looks awful modern to me... " Hi, Keep it in mind that "modern" is a relative term... Mebby better phrased as "no where near as old as portrayed"... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 19:46:19 -0500 Dennis, I was wondering about that one myself. The claim of 17th to 18th century seemed a bit generous to me, but I know not about these matters. Do you suppose that early to mid 19th century is more believable, or do you think it's even younger than that? Tom Dennis Miles wrote: > I Wrote: "Looks awful modern to me... " > > Hi, Keep it in mind that "modern" is a relative term... Mebby better > phrased > as "no where near as old as portrayed"... > > D > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 19:51:25 -0500 Thanks Dennis, I think I know what you mean. "Modern" to me can be 1890's. Manbear Dennis Miles wrote: > I Wrote: "Looks awful modern to me... " > > Hi, Keep it in mind that "modern" is a relative term... Mebby better > phrased > as "no where near as old as portrayed"... > > D > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Holidays with the Corp of Discovery Christmas Date: 03 Dec 2000 19:21:45 -0700 --------------AC5CFB770BA1162E65B877C9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit sent earlier but didn't go !!!!! Buck Conner wrote: > Hey folks, > > Here's one from the boys we all love. > Holidays with the Corp. of Discovery Christmas > _____________________________________________ > > At this wonerful time of the year, remember those of the > past and present, loved ones and friends, God Bless them > all. > > We've given you a little history of what was going on with > the Corp of Discovery under the direction of Lewis & > Clark. > > On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and > almost above freezing. Fort Mandan was deemed officially > complete, and the captains handed out dried apples, > pepper, and extra flour for the next day's meal and > celebration. > > Just before Christmas dawn, the captains were awakened by > the men, all if them, Clark noted, "merrily disposed." > > December 25th, 1804. > We ushed [in] the morning with a discharge of the Swivvel > [gun], and one round of Small arms of all the party. Then > another from the Swivvel. Then Capt. Clark presented a > glass of brandy to each man of the party. > > We hoisted the american flag, and each man had another > Glass of brandy. > > The men prepared one of the rooms and commenced dancing. > At 10 o'c [lock] we had another Glass of brandy, at one a > gun was fired as a Signal for diner. Half past two another > gun was fired to assemble at the dance, and So we kept it > up in a jov[ia]l manner untill eight o'c[lock] at night, > all without the company of the female Seck [sex]. > > > Joseph Whitehouse > > The mandans were asked not to visit the fort on Christmas > because, the captains explained, it was a "great medicine" > day for the expedition. But on New Year's, the men > celebrated with their Indian hosts. > > > ************* > New YearÆs Day > > January 1st, 1806. > Our repast of this day, tho' better than that of > Cristmass, consisted principally in the anticipation of > the 1st day of > > January 1807, when in the bosom of our friends we hope to > participate in the mirth and hilarity of the day, and when > with the zest given by the recollection of the present, we > shall completely, both mentally and corporally, enjoy the > repast which the hand of civilization has prepared for us. > > > Meriwether Lewis. > > Men were put to work making candles, boiling ocean water > for salt, preserving elk meat in a smokehouse, and sewing > clothes from elk hides for the return trip home. > > Clark labored over a new map that would replace eastern > speculation with the hard facts of western geography. > > Lewis wrote page after page of descriptions of animals and > plants unknown to science-from the giant sitka spruce tree > to the evergreen huckleberry; from ring-necked ducks and > whistling swans to small smelt-the candlefish-that the men > roasted and ate whole. > > > ************* > In the next life may we experience such an adventure, and > may God see us fit enough to handle the chore. > > For a new year it seems things are well with our early > travelers, fed and full of thoughts of returning home. > > May you and yourÆs have a good New Year. > > ************* > > Take care, > Buck Conner & family > Resource & Documentation for: > _____________________________________ > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ _____HRD__ > Research page: > http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _____HRD__ > Personal page: > http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ > ________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___ > > > > > > > > > --------------AC5CFB770BA1162E65B877C9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> sent earlier but didn't go !!!!! <p>Buck Conner wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Hey folks, <p>Here's one from the boys we all love. <br><i>Holidays with the Corp. of Discovery Christmas</i> <br>_____________________________________________ <p>At this wonerful time of the year, remember those of the past and present, loved ones and friends, God Bless them all. <p>We've given you a little history of what was going on with the Corp of Discovery under the direction of Lewis & Clark. <p>On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and almost above freezing. Fort Mandan was deemed officially complete, and the captains handed out dried apples, pepper, and extra flour for the next day's meal and celebration. <p>Just before Christmas dawn, the captains were awakened by the men, all if them, Clark noted,<i> "merrily disposed."</i> <p><i>December 25th, 1804.</i> <br><i>We ushed [in] the morning with a discharge of the Swivvel [gun], and one round of Small arms of all the party. Then another from the Swivvel. Then Capt. Clark presented a glass of brandy to each man of the party.</i> <p><i>We hoisted the american flag, and each man had another Glass of brandy.</i> <p><i>The men prepared one of the rooms and commenced dancing. At 10 o'c [lock] we had another Glass of brandy, at one a gun was fired as a Signal for diner. Half past two another gun was fired to assemble at the dance, and So we kept it up in a jov[ia]l manner untill eight o'c[lock] at night, all without the company of the female Seck [sex].</i> <br> Joseph Whitehouse <p>The mandans were asked not to visit the fort on Christmas because, the captains explained, it was a "great medicine" day for the expedition. But on New Year's, the men celebrated with their Indian hosts. <p> ************* <br>New YearÆs Day <p><i>January 1st, 1806.</i> <br><i>Our repast of this day, tho' better than that of Cristmass, consisted principally in the anticipation of the 1st day of</i> <p><i>January 1807, when in the bosom of our friends we hope to participate in the mirth and hilarity of the day, and when with the zest given by the recollection of the present, we shall completely, both mentally and corporally, enjoy the repast which the hand of civilization has prepared for us.</i> <br> Meriwether Lewis. <p>Men were put to work making candles, boiling ocean water for salt, preserving elk meat in a smokehouse, and sewing clothes from elk hides for the return trip home. <p>Clark labored over a new map that would replace eastern speculation with the hard facts of western geography. <p>Lewis wrote page after page of descriptions of animals and plants unknown to science-from the giant sitka spruce tree to the evergreen huckleberry; from ring-necked ducks and whistling swans to small smelt-the candlefish-that the men roasted and ate whole. <p> ************* <br>In the next life may we experience such an adventure, and may God see us fit enough to handle the chore. <p>For a new year it seems things are well with our early travelers, fed and full of thoughts of returning home. <p>May you and yourÆs have a good New Year. <br> ************* <p>Take care, <br>Buck Conner & family <br>Resource & Documentation for: <br>_____________________________________ <br>HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT <br><u><a href="http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/">http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/</a></u> _____HRD__ <br>Research page: <br><u><a href="http://pages.about.com/conner1/">http://pages.about.com/conner1/</a></u> _____HRD__ <br>Personal page: <br><u><a href="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</a></u> <br>________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___ <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> </blockquote> <br> <br> </html> --------------AC5CFB770BA1162E65B877C9-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MdntRdr1@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: E-mail lists Date: 03 Dec 2000 20:40:02 EST --part1_77.cea52f4.275c4ff2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know of an e-mail list somewhere that's dedicated to the Old West? Circa later on in the century than we talk about here? I've checked E-groups and haven't found anything on there that floats my boat yet. Stan "I resent 'experts' who have never faced deadly threat, yet who tell me - and you - that we should not consider a response of equal power against those who would threaten our lives." -- Massad Ayoob --part1_77.cea52f4.275c4ff2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0">Does anyone know of an e-mail list somewhere that's dedicated to the Old <BR>West? Circa later on in the century than we talk about here? I've checked <BR>E-groups and haven't found anything on there that floats my boat yet. <BR> <BR>Stan <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=1 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><I>"I resent 'experts' who have never faced deadly threat, <BR>yet who tell me - and you - that we should not consider <BR>a response of equal power against those who would <BR>threaten our lives." <BR>-- Massad Ayoob</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></I> <BR></FONT></HTML> --part1_77.cea52f4.275c4ff2_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Holidays with the Corp of Discovery Christmas Date: 03 Dec 2000 19:03:05 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05D5B.AAE33D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Buck, Tap in www.billingsgazette.com <http://www.billingsgazette.com/> Then pick news local/state in the upper left corner. Finally pick the story Clark on the Yellowstone. In todayÆs paper. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05D5B.AAE33D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <link rel=3DFile-List href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C05D5B.A7946020">  <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>He= y Buck,<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Ta= p in <a href=3D"http://www.billingsgazette.com/">www.billingsgazette.com</a> = <span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Then pick news local/state in = the upper left corner.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Finally pick = the story Clark on the Yellowstone.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In= today’s paper.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Wa= lt<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; color:navy'>Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Clark = Bottom Rendezvous</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p= ></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Yellowsto= ne Canoe Camp</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p= ></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>On the = Lewis & Clark Trail</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:= p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Park = City, Montana </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p= ></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><= span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font color=3Dblack><span = style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><= /p> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05D5B.AAE33D00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade axe on Ebay Date: 03 Dec 2000 22:16:23 -0500 Tom, My first impression is of mid 19thC to post C.W. Mebby later, but the style suggests that period. But I may be way wrong. (classic c.y.a.<G>) The marking is consistant with some in some C.W. era ref. books I have here .. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: E-mail lists Date: 03 Dec 2000 23:11:41 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C05D7E.65843700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stan Try these for your old west discussion groups. Lanney Ratcliff GhostRiders Stunt Co. reenactors of Old West and American ...=20 ... Discussion and Round Tables. Subscribe to Old West Reenactors = Mailing List. Discussion of American Frontier and Old West historical Reenacting. Moderated ...=20 Description: American Frontier Living History. Old West Reenactors. = Hangings by invitation.=20 Category: Arts > Performing Arts > Stunts > Live Shows www.ghostriders.org/ - 17k - Cached - Similar pages Bitter Creek Outlaws - Old West Gunfighters ... An old west living history and gunfighter group located in southwest = Wyoming, the area once ... Discussion of firearm safety for children (and adults = ...=20 Description: A group of low-down, dirty, rotten, mean, ugly (and that's = just our Sheriff) personages that perform...=20 Category: Regional > North America > United States > Wyoming > Arts and = Entertainment www.wyomerc.com/bcohome.html - 16k - Cached - Similar pages----- = Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 7:40 PM Does anyone know of an e-mail list somewhere that's dedicated to the Old = West? Circa later on in the century than we talk about here? I've = checked=20 E-groups and haven't found anything on there that floats my boat yet.=20 Stan=20 "I resent 'experts' who have never faced deadly threat,=20 yet who tell me - and you - that we should not consider=20 a response of equal power against those who would=20 threaten our lives."=20 -- Massad Ayoob=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C05D7E.65843700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV> <P>Stan <P>Try these for your old west discussion groups. <P>Lanney Ratcliff <P> <P><A=20 href=3D"http://www.google.com/url?sa=3DU&start=3D2&q=3Dhttp://www= .ghostriders.org/&e=3D629">GhostRiders=20 Stunt Co. reenactors of <B>Old</B> <B>West</B> and American <B>...</B> = </A><FONT=20 size=3D-1><BR><B>...</B> <B>Discussion</B> and Round Tables. Subscribe = to=20 <B>Old</B> <B>West</B> Reenactors Mailing List. <B>Discussion</B><BR>of = American=20 Frontier and <B>Old</B> <B>West</B> historical Reenacting. Moderated = <B>...</B>=20 <BR><FONT color=3D#6f6f6f size=3D-1>Description:</FONT> American = Frontier Living=20 History. <B>Old</B> <B>West</B> Reenactors. Hangings by invitation. = <BR><FONT=20 color=3D#6f6f6f size=3D-1>Category:</FONT> <A class=3Dl=20 href=3D"http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Performing_Arts/Stunts/Live_= Shows/">Arts > Performing Arts > Stunts&nb= sp;> Live Shows</A><BR><FONT=20 color=3Dgreen>www.ghostriders.org/ - 17k - <A class=3Dl=20 href=3D"http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcache:www.ghostriders.org/+old+w= est+discussion+group&hl=3Den">Cached</A>=20 - <A class=3Dl=20 href=3D"http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&safe=3Doff&= ;num=3D10&q=3Drelated:www.ghostriders.org/">Similar=20 pages</A></FONT></FONT><BR> <P><A=20 href=3D"http://www.google.com/url?sa=3DU&start=3D3&q=3Dhttp://www= .wyomerc.com/bcohome.html&e=3D629">Bitter=20 Creek Outlaws - <B>Old</B> <B>West</B> Gunfighters</A><FONT=20 size=3D-1><BR><B>...</B> An <B>old</B> <B>west</B> living history and = gunfighter=20 <B>group</B> located in southwest Wyoming,<BR>the area once <B>...</B>=20 <B>Discussion</B> of firearm safety for children (and adults <B>...</B>=20 <BR><FONT color=3D#6f6f6f size=3D-1>Description:</FONT> A <B>group</B> = of low-down,=20 dirty, rotten, mean, ugly (and that's just our Sheriff) personages that=20 perform... <BR><FONT color=3D#6f6f6f size=3D-1>Category:</FONT> <A = class=3Dl=20 href=3D"http://directory.google.com/Top/Regional/North_America/United_Sta= tes/Wyoming/Arts_and_Entertainment/">Regional > North A= merica > United States > Wyoming >= Arts and Entertainment</A><BR><FONT=20 color=3Dgreen>www.wyomerc.com/bcohome.html - 16k - <A class=3Dl=20 href=3D"http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcache:www.wyomerc.com/bcohome.ht= ml+old+west+discussion+group&hl=3Den">Cached</A>=20 - <A class=3Dl=20 href=3D"http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&safe=3Doff&= ;num=3D10&q=3Drelated:www.wyomerc.com/bcohome.html">Similar=20 pages</A></FONT></FONT>----- Original Message ----- </P></DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:MdntRdr1@aol.com" = title=3DMdntRdr1@aol.com>MdntRdr1@aol.com</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> = </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 03, 2000 7:40 PM</DIV> <DIV><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: E-mail lists</DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" = lang=3D0=20 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT">Does anyone know of an e-mail list somewhere = that's=20 dedicated to the Old <BR>West? Circa later on in the century than = we talk=20 about here? I've checked <BR>E-groups and haven't found anything = on there=20 that floats my boat yet. <BR><BR>Stan <BR><BR></FONT><FONT = color=3D#000000=20 face=3D"Comic Sans MS" lang=3D0 size=3D1 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"><I>"I resent = 'experts' who=20 have never faced deadly threat, <BR>yet who tell me - and you - that we = should=20 not consider <BR>a response of equal power against those who would = <BR>threaten=20 our lives." <BR>-- Massad Ayoob</FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial = lang=3D0=20 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></I> <BR></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C05D7E.65843700-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 02:15:47 EST In a message dated 12/2/0 02:26:21 PM, TrapRJoe@aol.com writes: <<Also the 330 conabear is a tough trap and you must be careful, but I have never heard of anyone losing an arm or any other body part to one. >> Screw up, and you wear it home. R. James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 07:42:47 EST In a message dated 12/4/00 12:20:37 AM Mountain Standard Time, SWzypher@aol.com writes: << Screw up, and you wear it home. R. James >> I knew a guy in Alaska that did just that! He had the old style Conabear and while trying to set it, it went off and caught BOTH of his arms. He couldn't get it off so had to come home for help.... The kicker was he had to fly his Super Cub back.....<VBG>.... he's still in the gene pool. If your gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough! Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 07:19:42 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: December 04, 2000 1:15 AM > Screw up, and you wear it home. > R. James I always carried a short length of rope when using these traps. In the event that you do get your arm caught in one, take the rope and tie it to the eye of one of the springs, then pass it through the other eye of the same spring and then back again through the first eye. The rope then can be used as a spring clamp when you depress the spring using the vast amount of energy created by all of the adrenaline flowing through your body caused by a huge trap being clamped on your arm. Remember, you only have to depress the spring a slight amount to retrieve your arm. A lot of care should be taken when using these traps but there is little doubt in my mind that they are the most effective and humane trap ever designed for catching beaver, in my opinion. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trapper@cillnet.com (Brad Everett) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 07:17:14 -0600 Good point and it works fine, unless you've got both thumbs hung up like a buddy who appeared at my door one cold snowy morn. I really shouldn't have laughed,hehehe! Especially when he asked me what those little hooks on the side were for! Trapper, Trek'n through time, backwards! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 7:19 AM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <SWzypher@aol.com> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: December 04, 2000 1:15 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item > > > > > Screw up, and you wear it home. > > R. James > > I always carried a short length of rope when using these traps. In the event > that you do get your arm caught in one, take the rope and tie it to the eye > of one of the springs, then pass it through the other eye of the same spring > and then back again through the first eye. The rope then can be used as a > spring clamp when you depress the spring using the vast amount of energy > created by all of the adrenaline flowing through your body caused by a huge > trap being clamped on your arm. Remember, you only have to depress the > spring a slight amount to retrieve your arm. A lot of care should be taken > when using these traps but there is little doubt in my mind that they are > the most effective and humane trap ever designed for catching beaver, in my > opinion. > northwoods > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: trade axe Date: 04 Dec 2000 08:08:21 -0600 Manbear Just looking at the pictures did not provide me much in the way of clues as to whether it is old or recent made. I note as of this a.m. it had 184 viewings and just three bids. To me that means there are a lot of people out there who have doubts also. I'd give about $20.00 for it out of curiosity. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Holidays with the Corp of Discovery Christmas Date: 04 Dec 2000 08:57:25 -0600 Buck, I think you were the one who posted the Thanksgiving of the Corp of Discovery. I used it as a Scoutmaster's Minute last week at our Troop meeting and the boys applauded. I was pleasantly surprised by that. I thought others in the group may be interested too. Thanks for the postings, Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Karl Kroll" <karl@intercompco.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #684 Date: 04 Dec 2000 15:52:12 -0600 I am from Minnesota, and last year I grew my own tobacco. It was not too difficult and the tobacco plants turned out to be the best crop in the garden. (one plant over 6 feet tall) I do not recall the web site that I found to buy the seeds. Keep in mind, the seeds require "sun light" (or a grow light etc.) for a certain amount of time before they can be planted. (the seeds are also very small) The plants also grow slowly, so you will want start them during the winter. You can also get info on growing and aging the tobacco on line. Can't get any more authentic than growing your own. One final bit of advice, be careful with whom you share your "home grown". There are several co-workers/friends who still think that I gave them marijuana to this day. It was also a little scary bringing it across the border into Canada, and a "funny looking" white clay pipe. Good Luck ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 18:03:02 EST It is funnier years later setting around a fire and telling some of the crazy trapping stories,thanks for bringing back some of the menories. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 17:17:04 -0600 > I knew a guy in Alaska that did just that! He had the old style > Conabear and > while trying to set it, it went off and caught BOTH of his arms. He > couldn't > get it off so had to come home for help.... The kicker was he had to > fly his > Super Cub back.....<VBG>.... he's still in the gene pool. > > If your gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough! > > Ymos, > Magpie Aw c'mon, Magpie, fess up. With all the tales Capt. Lahti' has told us about you recently, we all know who this Alaskan "friend" REALLY is!!!! <G> Victoria > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 16:38:30 -0800 > Aw c'mon, Magpie, fess up. With all the tales > Capt. Lahti' has told us about you recently, we all know who > this Alaskan "friend" REALLY is!!!! <G> > > Victoria Magpie, I didn't tell them, Honest. They figured it out all by themselves. Do you still have that Super Cub? <G> And did you get that jpg of your daughter trying to take the ball away from that Kennewick Woman? Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 20:51:51 EST --part1_b9.9381d81.275da437_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit True you may wear it for a while, but it doesn't sever legs or arms. I have been in them, but because of advance planning I was able to get out, without help. I was lucky. TrapRJoe --part1_b9.9381d81.275da437_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT SIZE=2>True you may wear it for a while, but it doesn't sever legs or arms. I have <BR>been in them, but because of advance planning I was able to get out, without <BR>help. I was lucky. <BR> <BR> TrapRJoe</FONT></HTML> --part1_b9.9381d81.275da437_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 04 Dec 2000 20:56:44 EST --part1_20.eca7384.275da55c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That why you use the safety on the trap and also an extra one to hold the jaws allowing you to release it safely. TrapRJoe --part1_20.eca7384.275da55c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>That why you use the safety on the trap and also an extra one to hold the <BR>jaws allowing you to release it safely. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> TrapRJoe</FONT></HTML> --part1_20.eca7384.275da55c_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #684 Date: 04 Dec 2000 21:41:11 EST Karl, A buddy of mine tried to grow his own tobacco over in eastern Tenn in with his dad's crop allotment. Was a different strain and he was growing it for seeds as well. Strange but the gov't. helicopters must have liked it, too cuz they flew over quite a bit to get a look! Maybe the seeds you got were some from his late eighties crop! <VBG> Strange, but his tobacco look different that his dad's. Hmmm................. Seriously, do you know what it was called? How does it smoke? -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> Subject: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 09:32:38 -0600 As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps, and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I want to broach. I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned. As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures, a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation". Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized Native groups. Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 09:14:18 -0800 Dianne, Your post is bound to be a "stick in the eye" to many on this group. Truth be known, very few Natives join in this buckskinning life style we have all adopted. The bulk of us are of European extraction with a sprinkling of African and Spanish blood. True, there are a number of us (an overt number, suspiciously)who claim a portion of Native blood from one tribe or the other. I have never met a "Rez" Native doing what we do and only a few mixed-bloods who were raised "Indian". Why is this? I have a couple of theories, both probably as invalid as any, but based on observation and conversation. The first is ignorance of recorded history. Ever see the award-winning film : "Smoke Signals"? It depicts two young men leaving the reservation for the first time to retrieve the inherited possessions (a car)of an absentee father. It is referred to as "going to the United States". All the perceptions these men have about contemporary life outside is gleaned from movies, TV and oral tradition. Like the Amish, they dwell apart. The rejection of written history is almost a religion among some of these tribes. Why read what the conquerors have written about those defeated? It's too bad because our local Chumash were able to emerge from their mixed Spanish/Native blood due to the records of ceremonies and language kept by the Spanish padres at the missions. It's also too bad because they miss the point of the "rendezvous movement". At a reenactment held at Fort Snelling, Minnesota years ago a small lodge was set up by a local Dakota couple. They made no attempt at period clothing and wore their ribbon shirt and dance dress...but they were there. I asked them why there were no more Natives at this gathering considering that we were reproducing a period of history where the whites and Indians wanted the same thing: to keep "civilization" east of the Mississippi. He replied that most of his friends couldn't get by the evil connections made to this fort. Fort Snelling is where the Dakota were imprisoned after the abortive uprising in the 1860s. 49 Dakotas were taken from Fort Snelling and hung at Mankato in the largest mass hanging in history. The Indian war period and contemporary twentieth century living on the reservations overshadow any "good times" of the past. And it's the love of the history of this time that drives the "hobby". This life we live is costly. You gotta love it to scrape and save for the gun and traps necessary to travel back in time. Just the gas for the truck to haul all the stuff is a major consideration these days. Most Natives have other things to spend the money on. Stuff they need and love more. The second reason is social. Us "white" people aren't Indians. Never will be. Attend a Pow-Wow and wait until the place closes down for the night. Listen to the songs the Natives sing for themselves around the drum when the trinket sellers and fry-bread cooks have gone to bed and the white tourists have left. The young women dance around the drum while the young men pass the "holy smoke" and check out the gals. Us white guys stand on the edge and listen to the words that are not sung but are there: "You are not wanted here. You don't understand and never will. You are not Native and never will be." Now reverse the situation and put reservation Natives on the outside of a fire circle at rendezvous as they listen to the songs and the attitudes presented there: "You do not belong here. You do not understand and never will. You are not us and never will be." The interesting thing about these two scenarios is the validity they both espouse. There is something valid about the Indian-experience that attracts us European immigrants. Back far enough we connect. And there is something of the confidence and family values around the rendezvous campfire that is attractive to the Native American. We both want what the other has but we refuse to give up being who we are in order to attain it. This post is too damn long and too damn philosophical. It really is up to the mixed-bloods who live in both worlds to make the connection between us. They need to talk up rendezvous to their cousins on the Rez and invite them into an accommodating group. They need to come out of the closet and explain the Indian mind to us buckskinners so we can "get" the good stuff and adjust the attitudes that prevents us from experiencing the mix of cultures that was so much a part of the original rendezvous. Or NOT. The movement will continue as it has, catering to those that read the histories, love the outdoors and won the wars. A few of us individuals will attempt more. Those of us who are welcome in Native homes and have Native relatives will continue to bridge the gap and insert the knowledge gained into our lives. The rest will settle for celebrating history in our own way. The buckskinning "hobby" appeals to a wide variety of tastes and interests. There is room enough for everyone. There is room for Natives. Welcome, Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:32 AM > As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have > been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps, > and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering > back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant > culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and > the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I > want to broach. > > I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white > people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed > to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". > > There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with > Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so > inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions > died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. > > Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people > ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of > "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a > bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial > groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they > professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned. > > As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures, > a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation". > > Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? > > I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am > wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized > Native groups. > > Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 12:16:55 -0800 Larry Huber's thoughtful reply pretty much sums it up for me. I have always had a fascination with Native culture which is part of what drew me into recreating the mountain man's life style. I have come to realise that I have a rather vague and superficial "understanding" of native culture which was actually as varied as the 1000 or more tribes that populated this land before we got here. Qualities which were generally admired and adopted by white Americans included personal independence, a fairly class-less society, and especially admiration for their well-developed skills of living in the wilderness. Feared or hated qualities included ruthlessness and "heathen religions". Most Europeans of the time appeared to take for granted that their logical skills, education, weapons, personal strength, and Christian faith were more than a match for the natives they encoutered. I can understand the "New Ager's" search for the meaning of life and the romantic hope that somehow the stoic Indians had it all figured out. I don't think they do, any more than the rest of us. All societies have their bonding and support rituals. Everyone appreciates polite respect for their customs and a decent sense of privacy. I can understand resentment against cultural appropriation, especially of a shallow and patronizing kind. If I found myself invited to a ceremony I would be honored to attend in a respectful manner but it is not my personal culture. As a side point, although there may some some whites who are out-and-out pretending to be Indians, most of those wearing "native" clothing are recreating the crossover culture which developed between whites and their mixed blood offspring who went "partly native" and enjoyed the freedom of the wilderness while holding onto the wealth and power of their white weapons and contacts. The "rules of the game" pretty much require women to dress native, since there were so few white women until the very end of the rendezvous era. You will find, however, that most events allow for a fair amount of slack (for instance, for "frontier dress") as long as blatant modern intrusions are avoided. Best regards Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:33 AM As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps, and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I want to broach. I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned. As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures, a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation". Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized Native groups. Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 15:54:13 -0800 Actually, you might want to bring this up on another site called http://www.powwows.com. Elders I have talked too do not mind the dancers or the re-creation. But all is an opinion on all sides. As for "stealing" a culture, it might be more of an adaptation or adopting of a culture. Many of those who you maybe looking at are part Indian and trying to learn their culture. But this is not the site to get into any of this. I have seen Indians get dressed up as Buckskinners to do a time line at Rendezvous. What do we call these guys?? Linda Holley "Best, Dianne" wrote: > As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have > been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps, > and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering > back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant > culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and > the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I > want to broach. > > I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white > people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed > to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". > > There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with > Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so > inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions > died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. > > Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people > ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of > "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a > bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial > groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they > professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned. > > As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures, > a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation". > > Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? > > I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am > wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized > Native groups. > > Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 15:42:12 EST In a message dated 12/5/0 08:34:00 AM, dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes: Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles?>>* <<Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of "instant Indians" were born. . . . . . . . . claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned.** *One Indian - who is much to be respected in his knowledge of "ancestoral correctness" - a spiritual leader, a much respected museum consultant, and a lawyer - once told me that for "buckskinners" to build themselves a scalp shirt and present themselves to the world is the same as for Indians to wear a black robe and say "lets go play Catholic priest". Further - these shirts and similar items were not only sacred, but earned. Another Indian - a Lakota - in an open church meeting at the Fort Bridger Rendezvous said basically the same thing. ** In conversation with individuals similar to the above, this group is refered to as the "sweat-lodges and crystals" tribe. I didn't know it had spread so broadly. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes?? Date: 05 Dec 2000 15:54:26 EST In a message dated 12/1/00 11:28:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, CTOAKES@aol.com writes: << Many hard core smokers now carry hidden empty Sucrets tins to put their cigarette butts in rather than loose eating privileges at her fire. >> Heck of an idea! Would sure beat digging the loose butts out of my possibles bag! NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 05 Dec 2000 15:55:53 EST <<Aw c'mon, Magpie, fess up.>> Haaaaaaa...Victoria, I've been brain dead before, but that wasn't me!!!! <G> I did once manage to land my Cub on very thin ice (like 1/2 inch!)with a foot of snow on top, and almost went through.I could actually feel the plane settle as the ice started to give way. It was about 20 below and even if I could have made it to shore, I'd have never made it to camp, because all my survival gear was in the back of the plane. ...got moving fast enough to stay on top...but took awhile to get my heart restarted....<VBG> I trapped most of the beaver with snares, set just below the "bottom" of the ice. I'd use 4 at each set..bent into a 8" circle, and set around a birch or willow pole for bait. The beaver would swim around, cutting the pole and get caught. When ice got thick, we'd used a chainsaw to cut the holes...sometimes 3' deep. Worked good. The hard part was skinning the critters... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 05 Dec 2000 16:03:54 EST <<I didn't tell them, Honest.....> No more war stories for you Lahti!!!!.....<G> <<Do you still have the Cub?>> Naw.....had to sell it to buy a real house...like the tipi wasn't good enough for my wife and kids!!! After 13 years I still grieve... :-( I saw the pic in the Kennewick paper...cute kid, like her Dad...huh? Man o' man did we take a wippin' in that game! Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 16:11:13 EST In a message dated 12/5/0 01:35:15 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: <<I have seen Indians get dressed up as Buckskinners to do a time line at Rendezvous. What do we call these guys?? Linda Holley >> After the turn of the century someone in the Indian group caught on to the script of "when you play cowboys and Indians - guess who wins??"! After that, most western Indians started wearing cowboy duds and today - this is the most popular wear. What do we call them?? Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 14:52:01 -0700 Dianne, It has come up, but bad taste is everywhere and knows no limit. That's why I am AMM and try to stay with what is correct, you meet a more respectable class of individuals then youre park and drop flat lander's. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> >To: "'MountainMan Digest'" <hist_text@xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" >Date: Tue, Dec 5, 2000, 8:32 AM > >As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have >been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps, >and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering >back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant >culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and >the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I >want to broach. > >I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white >people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed >to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". > >There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with >Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so >inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions >died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. > >Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people >("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of >"instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a >bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial >groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they >professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned. > >As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures, >a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation". > >Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? > >I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am >wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized >Native groups. > >Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... > >Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 05 Dec 2000 14:17:44 -0800 > I saw the pic in the Kennewick paper...cute kid, like her Dad...huh? I'm hoping she took after her mama. Man o' man did we take a wippin' in that game! So did Bethel in the Dome. It don't pay to mess with these farm kids over here. <G> Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 14:30:59 -0800 (PST) My mother's grandparents provided a window to view the Cherokee and Irish cultures. They both lived in Little Rock only a few blocks apart, went to the same high school but never met. When my Cherokee Grandpa went back to the reservation in Oklahoma and my Irish Grandma joined a church mission to the same reservation, they finally met, married and became the ordained ministers I've known. The stories they've told me still astonishes me, especially my grandmother's; she talked of persecution herself back in her young days:" an Irishman was just a nigger under that white skin". I am part Cherokee but I choose not to be on the Roll; I learned the language but have no one to converse with in Cherokee. When I was eight years old my father was so exasperated with me that he slapped me up the side of my head and told me that I AM white so act like one. For all practical intents and purposes I am a member of the predominant culture but I love to make my friends uncomfortable by talking about 'white people' as a strange aberrant lifestyle. Just humoring them for being the way they are. I've witnessed a few Full bloods live and die in my hometown. They come in off the reservation but could not quite handle the transition. Others went back to the rez better able and better qualified to explain the white world to their clans and also to explain their world to the at-large population. I've been amused by a few of these 'demonstrations' of religious ceremonies in tipis at rendezvous. After one such demo, I gave my equally inept demonstration of a Jewish ceremony and was told to leave! Oh well. Yeah, it was inappropriate; so? I've only known one black man who goes to a rendezvous and club shoots; plus a few Natives who attend Pow-wows. Rodeo and cowboy westerns related doins are still the dominant attractions; buckskinning does not have the broad appeal of these activities. It's hard to recruit future buckskinners. --- "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> wrote: > As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I > have > been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber > camps, > and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been > wandering > back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant > culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past > and > the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue > I > want to broach. > > I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white > people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things > presumed > to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". > > There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with > Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people > so > inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the > suspicions > died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. > > Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native > people > ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of > "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned > a > bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial > groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they > professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not > earned. > > As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native > cultures, > a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural > appropriation". > > Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? > > I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am > wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and > organized > Native groups. > > Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== deafstones What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is. Vice President Dan Quayle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 16:25:39 -0700 Dianne, One reason you find a few people in our hobby who use "Indian" items and ways is the unqiue time frame we portary. The fur trade is probably the first peroid of time, for the western tribes, that whites came into large contact with them. We (trappers, adventurers and company men) traveled. lived and died in the same lands as various tribes. Many of these men had a good relationship with the Indians living around them. They traded, camped and even married into alot of the tribes. So, when things which are "Indian" turn up in our camps, it is more natural in the time frame we represent then with any other. As far as "spiritual appropriations"- different story. Many of us in this group have friends which are full, half or quarter bloods. We get invited to sweats, dances and dinners. And I must say, there are a few in this hobby which like to portary themselves as "Indians". They may tell old stories around the camp fire, give blessings for new lodges and even dress like natives. But that is the exception to the rule for those of us who take this seriously. Most will respect, but not copy. They (we) even tell about things we have learned from our friends, but don't profit on it. And some of our group can make very good representations of great old Indian equipement, but it is known that it is that- not like you find in alot of the tourist traps around the west. We respect the life styles which some Indians I know conduct themselves. Past and present. For me, I take everyone, white or Indian for who they are. I have been heckeled during a class of about 40 people by a Indian before. When questioned and had various views pointed out to me, I gave straight answers. Some which the whites didn't like, some which the gentlemen didn't much care for. By the end of the hour's class, we talked some more, he invited me to his camp and when it was all done, said I was always welcome to his home. Too many times, we have this gap between us which is influnced by TV, old movies and even our prejudgies. Which doesn't have to be there (on both od our sides). mike. "Best, Dianne" wrote: > As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have > been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps, > and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering > back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant > culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and > the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I > want to broach. > > I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white > people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed > to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". > > There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with > Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so > inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions > died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. > > Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people > ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of > "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a > bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial > groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they > professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned. > > As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures, > a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation". > > Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? > > I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am > wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized > Native groups. > > Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 19:03:55 EST Here's where the fun starts Sorry Diane but as in much of the world today it is all befuddled. We don't get to see too many Native American at most Rendezvous. I had a talk with a professor who is Native. The general consensus is that we are nuts and could not be anything but dangerous. If you read those trap stories that might be right. Go to Pow wow, and I don't have to tell you "Vegas style" (my name, you can make up your own) rules. I have seen and this is the ultimate best, Native Americans at Pow wow co-opting (hope I "spelt" that right) velvet ribbon work and 3-D bead work from the Mardi Gras Indians. MG Indians are not "Indians" at all but an Afro American sub culture from New Orleans that strut their stuff during Carnival. MG Indians make the most incredible use of Ribbon, beads and feathers. Jake Pontillo, a nice Italian Boy from Queens, has been paid by Reservations and Native groups to teach porcupine quill work to Native Americans. Most of the books written about camp and trail craft (the guys on this list could just rattle them off) were written or compiled by Whites (Caucasoid Americans if you please). Are we the great preservers? Or the great corrupters? European collections are really all we have of 18th Century Native material cultures. We from a historical perspective research things as they were. Many mountain men and long hunters lived, traded, married, fought against and were allied to Native Americans. We PORTRAY. The Native American culture like America as a whole is ever evolving. Native and ALL Americans have the right and even the obligation to proceed into the future. So let the beaded baseball caps wave. I always thought that a GREAT fund raiser for Native causes would be a High Fly designer show/auction of Pow wow Dance garb. Boy that was long and rambling. Sorry about that ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 19:51:57 EST In a message dated 12/5/00 5:36:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, deafstones@yahoo.com writes: > > I've been amused by a few of these 'demonstrations' of religious > ceremonies in tipis at rendezvous. After one such demo, I gave my equally > inept demonstration of a Jewish ceremony and was told to leave! Oh well. > Yeah, it was inappropriate; so? > Was it a circumcision? And don't start you are just mad that you didn't think of it first! Fox I am REALLY really sorry ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation - Off topic Date: 05 Dec 2000 21:03:33 EST Respectable? Well, I agree more period correct, more interesting, better looking, but respectable . . . I'm just not sure I can agree with that. Has anyone ever heard the story of Dead Horse eating a buffalo's eyeballs at an AMM gathering. I rest my case. Laura Jean (I did tell him that if he would consider doing it live, I thought I could get him a gig on Leno or Letterman.) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item Date: 05 Dec 2000 21:21:03 EST --part1_95.3e33075.275efc8f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been contacted about a beaver problem. It involves three locations or more. The land owner has maybe more than 10,000 acres. I have trapped beaver for many years and will start trapping on these in Feb. Would anyone out there like to learn beaver trapping? I could use some help. It's in Eastern, OK. TrapRJoe --part1_95.3e33075.275efc8f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>I've been contacted about a beaver problem. It involves three locations or <BR>more. The land owner has maybe more than 10,000 acres. I have trapped <BR>beaver for many years and will start trapping on these in Feb. Would anyone <BR>out there like to learn beaver trapping? I could use some help. It's in <BR>Eastern, OK. <BR> <BR> TrapRJoe</FONT></HTML> --part1_95.3e33075.275efc8f_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 18:39:44 -0800 (PST) --- JSeminerio@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/5/00 5:36:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, > deafstones@yahoo.com writes: > > > > > I've been amused by a few of these 'demonstrations' of religious > > ceremonies in tipis at rendezvous. After one such demo, I gave my > equally > > inept demonstration of a Jewish ceremony and was told to leave! Oh > well. > > Yeah, it was inappropriate; so? > > > > Was it a circumcision? > And don't start you are just mad that you didn't think of it first! > > > Fox I am REALLY really sorry ROTFLMAO!!! Didn't think of that at the time, no! Ah, well, i won't have another oppurtunity. No more for the public open house shows for me. Getting back to Diane's letter, I think poverty and just plain lack of oppurtunities excuses the Natives 'lack of interest'. ===== deafstones What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is. Vice President Dan Quayle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DRB Hays" <bestrong@cmc.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 19:23:34 -0800 Maybe not a "Rousing" session , but at least .02 worth. Been a buckskinner for 35 years. was born "Tsoyaha's" .(Yuchi) At 15 years old committed to learning the way of the warrior/ priest. Passed to me by my uncle , became a traditional priest of my people, after 12 years of study--- and if I survive until 72 years of age I can hang out a shingle. I have married, buried, and done so many sweat lodges and ceremonies that I can not remember. Started and left at least three blackpowder groups and worked with many that wanted to claim their American heritage and were denied by the shades and braids, or excluded by people that make up less than 1% of the population and should know better. Native American means born In America IMO.. I bemoan the American that feels forced to go to South America To seek a spiritual "way" or thinks they must bear the burden of guilt for things that happened years ago. Shit Happens. It was only in the 70's that the laws "allowed " me to practice My "religion". Funny thing. I had been practicing for quite awhile before that. And one of the best places I ever found Was at A primitive mountain rendezvous. The pow wow of the 60's and 70's were often just excuses to drink. Called "49" When I needed to be recharged I would seek a redevous. The Big timber Montana redevous of !976 (?) was a week long epiphany. A 100 lodges, 75 or more lean-tos---waking up to the bag pipes, fire-walking with canucks and people that had rode in from far away left memories that have never been duplicated at any pow wow . Know some buckskinners that don't pretend. They have trapped full time, lived the life---walked their talk. Know some "injuns" that have done the same. Could have joined the Amm many years ago but don't like rules. Always saw myself as a rogue, but my point is that you won't find a more history conscious group. Some of those boys are more "injun" than me. Their are not as good looking or can shoot as far................ Anyway, the short and sweet of it is IMO if you want to--- claim what belongs to all Americans, the history, and the philosophy. What a wonderful period to recreate. The Mountain man period. The best of the white world , and the Red world. So assert your right and send a voice---leap into the air and scream like a young eagle. Not interested in getting into any he said --she said debates or conversing with any anthropologists---I know some states say My people are extinct. Not yet but close. Not seeking any converts, and do not want any house calls. No insult offered. The House of America has many communities(tribes) and their are many dances to be learned and many songs to be sung. No one group owns them. If someone won't share, then dream it yourself. > back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant > culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keiths Mail" <mofurco@socket.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 18:37:15 -0600 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 05 Dec 2000 20:19:27 -0800 Thank you. Words well spoken for all of us. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:23 PM > Maybe not a "Rousing" session , but at least .02 worth. > > Been a buckskinner for 35 years. > > was born "Tsoyaha's" .(Yuchi) > > At 15 years old committed to learning the way of the warrior/ priest. > > Passed to me by my uncle , became a traditional priest of my people, after > 12 years of study--- and if I survive until 72 years of age I can hang > out a shingle. > > I have married, buried, and done so many sweat lodges and ceremonies that I > can not remember. > > Started and left at least three blackpowder groups and worked with many > that wanted to claim their American heritage and were denied by the shades > and braids, or excluded by people that make up less than 1% of the > population and should know better. > > Native American means born In America IMO.. > I bemoan the American that feels forced to go to > South America To seek a spiritual "way" or thinks they must bear the burden > of guilt for things that happened years ago. > > Shit Happens. It was only in the 70's that the laws > "allowed " me to practice My "religion". > > Funny thing. I had been practicing for quite awhile before that. > And one of the best places I ever found Was at A primitive > mountain rendezvous. > > The pow wow of the 60's and 70's were often just excuses to drink. > Called "49" > > When I needed to be recharged I would seek a redevous. > > The Big timber Montana redevous of !976 (?) was a week long > epiphany. > > A 100 lodges, 75 or more lean-tos---waking up to the bag pipes, > fire-walking with canucks and people that had rode in from far > away left memories that have never been duplicated at any pow wow . > > Know some buckskinners that don't pretend. They have trapped full > time, lived the life---walked their talk. Know some "injuns" that > have done the same. > > Could have joined the Amm many years ago but don't like rules. > Always saw myself as a rogue, but my point is that you won't > find a more history conscious group. Some of those > boys are more "injun" than me. > > > Their are not as good looking or can shoot as far................ > Anyway, the short and sweet of it is IMO if you want to--- > claim what belongs to all Americans, the history, and the > philosophy. > > What a wonderful period to recreate. The Mountain man period. The > best of the white world , and the Red world. > > So assert your right and send a voice---leap into the air and scream > like a young eagle. > > Not interested in getting into any he said --she said debates or > conversing with any anthropologists---I know some states say My > people are extinct. Not yet but close. > > Not seeking any converts, and do not want any house calls. No > insult offered. > > The House of America has many communities(tribes) and their are many > dances to be learned and many songs to be sung. > > No one group owns them. > > If someone won't share, then dream it yourself. > > > back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant > > culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #687 cultural appropriation Date: 05 Dec 2000 23:38:58 -0500 (EST) I make jewellery for a living much of which is inspired by Native American culture, now while I do have Native blood its only about 12% of my make up consequently I don't look "typically" Native and I have often been approached and questioned by other Native Americans as to why I am selling items identified with there culture(sometimes harshly) when I explain that both my wife and I are of native decent ( she is about 50% or more,Lumbi and Cherokee) all is well and we usually have a nice chat and some times I'll get a sale! Its a bit uncomfortable at times (when there harsh) but I do understand. Personally I'd rather see New Agers with there Native jewellery,seminars and classes then lack of interest and apathy! In the older ways it wasn't blood or color that made you a Person but your outlook! Just my 2 cents worth and I'd like to say thanks Diane for some interesting threads!!!! Y.M.O.S , M.A Smith "In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks Date: 05 Dec 2000 21:37:15 -0800 Halloo the Camp...... I am a wondering.... for those of you out there who like to strum or pick a stringed period instrument during your sojourns... what do you substitute for a modern plastic pick? I am looking for a material that is suitably flexible to use on a dulcimer. I've tried wood, but it's too brittle when shaved thin. I'm now looking at an old broken horn of mine as a possible donor to the cause... possibly tortoise shell? Did picks even exist in the 17th and 18th century? I know dulcimers were there, along with several variants from Scandinavia and the Balkans.... Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks Date: 06 Dec 2000 06:02:05 -0500 Lee, How about ivory from an old piano?? Send me your adddress and I will drop a piece in the mail. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks Date: 06 Dec 2000 06:49:53 -0800 I also play the Dulcimer and use a hard piece of rawhide and sometimes a thin piece of wood. The Dulcimer does go back a ways and has been researched quite a bit by the Societies of Dulcimer makers. Use to get the magazines and go to the Colleges on how to play. Next time I am in a camp....yell, we can play a few rounds of "Boiling Cabbage Down." Linda Holley Lee Newbill wrote: > Halloo the Camp...... > > I am a wondering.... for those of you out there who like to strum or > pick a stringed period instrument during your sojourns... what do you > substitute for a modern plastic pick? > > I am looking for a material that is suitably flexible to use on a > dulcimer. I've tried wood, but it's too brittle when shaved thin. I'm > now looking at an old broken horn of mine as a possible donor to the > cause... possibly tortoise shell? > > Did picks even exist in the 17th and 18th century? I know dulcimers > were there, along with several variants from Scandinavia and the > Balkans.... > > Regards from Idaho > > Lee Newbill > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 06 Dec 2000 06:50:18 -0700 --------------3538AA92CA575DEC6BD2608E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JSeminerio@aol.com wrote: Sorry Diane but as in much of the world today it is all befuddled. We don't get to see too many Native American at most Rendezvous. I had a talk with a professor who is Native. The general consensus is that we are nuts ........... The younger folks are more interested in modern ways, stepping out of the run down settlements, or like some - wanting more than what is handed to them by the government. Not all but a good percentage want more than what their folks have had, not just clothes and a new car or truck. Go to Pow wow, and I don't have to tell you "Vegas style" (my name, you can make up your own) rules. I have seen and this is the ultimate best, Native Americans at Pow wow co-opting (hope I "spelt" that right) velvet ribbon work and 3-D bead work from the Mardi Gras Indians........... We have done this in the Denver area (Pow Wow's), selling beautiful clothing which much is made by the whites, many ex BSA's that got their start with the old Joe Hunt books back in the 50's and 60's. Some of the native trader's main source of supply are from these craftsman, biggest problem is the items are presented as "Native American Made". Jake Pontillo, a nice Italian Boy from Queens, has been paid by Reservations and Native groups to teach porcupine quill work to Native Americans....... Jake is not alone, there are many whites per say that teach the almost forgotten stories, crafts, and so on to various Nations throughout North America, we see this more and more in resent years. We from a historical perspective research things as they were. Many mountain men and long hunters lived, traded, married, fought against and were allied to Native Americans......... It's funny on one hand their culture has faded from many, but on the other - good that some are starting to get involved in relearning the ways and starting to teach those interested, finally. Native and ALL Americans have the right and even the obligation to proceed into the future........ Awareness Groups in many of the large corporations in the Americas have started to work with their different groups of people within their companies to promote the different cultures and to support them. I work for a telecommunications company that it's territory takes in 14 western states, I have been involved with a group called "Voice of Many Feathers" that covers many of the different groups. Here in Denver alone we have a dozen different native American tribes coming to monthly meeting, taking part in feeding the poor, caring for the needy and working with native Americans for the different holidays. When first started we had a few "token" brothers and sisters, more 1/2, 1/4, and 1/8 than full bloods, the original group for the 14 states was less than two dozen, now we are proud to say we are over 1,000 + members for our region. That doesn't sound like many for a company that's 53,000 strong but you have to remember that many still feel that others look down on them, so rather than stand and be counted, they keep low profiles. For myself, I never knew my family had any other blood than Irish or Dutch until I was taking care of an Aunt, three weeks before she died she told me that my great great grandmother was taken by Delaware Indians from PA to OH when a young girl. She walked home 4 years later in Jan and Feb. carrying my great grandmother, she had slipped away when gathering firewood. The reason we where never told about this was Indians on the East coast where considered worthless drunks when I grew up. Lenni-Lenape (Delaware) member. Later, Buck Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ________HRD__ Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ --------------3538AA92CA575DEC6BD2608E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> JSeminerio@aol.com wrote: <p><i> Sorry Diane but as in much of the world today it is all</i> <br><i> befuddled. We don't get to see too many Native American at most</i> <br><i> Rendezvous. I had a talk with a professor who is Native. The general consensus is that we are nuts ...........</i> <p>The younger folks are more interested in modern ways, <br>stepping out of the run down settlements, or like some - <br>wanting more than what is handed to them by the government. <br>Not all but a good percentage want more than what their folks <br>have had, not just clothes and a new car or truck. <p><i> Go to Pow wow, and I don't have to tell you "Vegas style" (my</i> <br><i> name, you can make up your own) rules. I have seen and this is the ultimate</i> <br><i> best, Native Americans at Pow wow co-opting (hope I "spelt" that right)</i> <br><i> velvet ribbon work and 3-D bead work from the Mardi Gras Indians...........</i> <p>We have done this in the Denver area (Pow Wow's), selling <br>beautiful clothing which much is made by the whites, many ex <br>BSA's that got their start with the old Joe Hunt books back in <br>the 50's and 60's. Some of the native trader's main source of <br>supply are from these craftsman, biggest problem is the items <br>are presented as "Native American Made". <p><i> Jake Pontillo, a nice Italian Boy from Queens, has been paid by Reservations</i> <br><i> and Native groups to teach porcupine quill work to Native</i> <br><i> Americans.......</i> <p>Jake is not alone, there are many whites per say that teach the <br>almost forgotten stories, crafts, and so on to various Nations <br>throughout North America, we see this more and more in <br>resent years. <p><i> We from a historical perspective research things as they were. Many mountain</i> <br><i> men and long hunters lived, traded, married, fought against and were allied</i> <br><i> to Native Americans.........</i> <p>It's funny on one hand their culture has faded from many, but <br>on the other - good that some are starting to get involved in <br>relearning the ways and starting to teach those interested, <br>finally. <p><i> Native and ALL Americans have the right and even the obligation to proceed</i> <br><i> into the future........</i> <p>Awareness Groups in many of the large corporations in the <br>Americas have started to work with their different groups of <br>people within their companies to promote the different cultures <br>and to support them. <p>I work for a telecommunications company that it's territory <br>takes in 14 western states, I have been involved with a group <br>called "Voice of Many Feathers" that covers many of the <br>different groups. Here in Denver alone we have a dozen <br>different native American tribes coming to monthly meeting, <br>taking part in feeding the poor, caring for the needy and <br>working with native Americans for the different holidays. <p>When first started we had a few "token" brothers and sisters, <br>more 1/2, 1/4, and 1/8 than full bloods, the original group for <br>the 14 states was less than two dozen, now we are proud to <br>say we are over 1,000 + members for our region. That doesn't <br>sound like many for a company that's 53,000 strong but you <br>have to remember that many still feel that others look down on <br>them, so rather than stand and be counted, they keep low <br>profiles. <p>For myself, I never knew my family had any other blood than <br>Irish or Dutch until I was taking care of an Aunt, three weeks <br>before she died she told me that my great great grandmother <br>was taken by Delaware Indians from PA to OH when a young <br>girl. She walked home 4 years later in Jan and Feb. carrying my <br>great grandmother, she had slipped away when gathering <br>firewood. The reason we where never told about this was <br>Indians on the East coast where considered worthless drunks <br>when I grew up. Lenni-Lenape (Delaware) member. <p>Later, <br>Buck Conner <br>Resource & Documentation for: ______________ <br>HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT <br><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/">http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/</A> ________HRD__ <br>Research page: <br><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/conner1/">http://pages.about.com/conner1/</A> _______HRD__ <br>Personal page: <br><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> <br>____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ <br> <br> </html> --------------3538AA92CA575DEC6BD2608E-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 06 Dec 2000 07:14:04 -0600 Thank you Larry Huber for such an insightful dialogue on Native involvement in Buckskinning. I know what you mean about "the written history". I learned Canadian history in early public school, and then learned "the truth" at the feet of my Seneca Grandmother. The difference between what was in "the whiteman's books" and what my Grandmother told me was astounding - mostly in what the books DIDN'T say. It definitely bred a suspicion of anything that came from authority or the dominant culture. I remember hearing a great deal about the Dakota at Fort Snelling and the hangings at Mankato! You point about "the Indian experience" is very valid. Most often, the socio-economic differences create different priorities. I can relate somewhat to both sides and totally to neither. The "middle ground" is both a blessing and a curse. To sit around the Sacred Fire one night in the bush and listen to some of my militant young friends talk about the bad things "the whiteman" has done to the People, and then to go to work the next day and listen to my well-paid and comfortable white coworkers talk about the "lazy, drunken Indians" - sure screws up one's head. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and perceptions so openly Larry! Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" #2 Date: 06 Dec 2000 07:36:54 -0600 Deafstones wrote "Others went back to the rez better able and better qualified to explain the white world to their clans and also to explain their world to the at-large population." The people you write about must be a lot smarter than me. I have never been able to explain "in Indian" about the "white world". I have lived in it most of my 51 years but if a Native person asks me why something in the white world is a certain way, all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say - well, I wont tell you what I say.... One thing I have noticed in the last few years is the "infiltration" of white consumer culture into the distant and isolated reserves here. With the coming of satellite television, the young people are turning toward the dominant culture and away from the traditional. So many Native kids now are more interested in Nikis than in their Grandfather's Sacred Pipe. What the governments tried to do with forced assimilation failed but it looks as if Madison Avenue and Walt Disney will succeed. Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" #2 Date: 06 Dec 2000 07:25:27 -0700 Dianne, In the past there were a few Indians that got into Buckskining and the one's I knew were great resources and freinds, but it was a learning process for them to change from modern dance costumes to traditional dress. The chalange for both Indians and Whites in learning the facts is difficult and takes a lot of research. I suppose that for Indians it is even harder when you remember the cultural persicution that has taken place over the centuries. The whole thing gets even worse when you add pop culture/new age crap to the mix. Both Indian and White culture have there good and bad sides, to paint either with supper attributes is wrong. I have always belived that Indians need to get back to there own history and be glad for who and what they are. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> >To: "'MountainMan Digest'" <hist_text@xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" #2 >Date: Wed, Dec 6, 2000, 6:36 AM > >Deafstones wrote "Others went back to the rez better able and better >qualified to explain the white world to their clans and also to explain >their world to the at-large population." > >The people you write about must be a lot smarter than me. I have never been >able to explain "in Indian" about the "white world". I have lived in it most >of my 51 years but if a Native person asks me why something in the white >world is a certain way, all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say - well, I >wont tell you what I say.... > >One thing I have noticed in the last few years is the "infiltration" of >white consumer culture into the distant and isolated reserves here. With the >coming of satellite television, the young people are turning toward the >dominant culture and away from the traditional. So many Native kids now are >more interested in Nikis than in their Grandfather's Sacred Pipe. > >What the governments tried to do with forced assimilation failed but it >looks as if Madison Avenue and Walt Disney will succeed. > >Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 06 Dec 2000 20:54:29 -0700 I will reply. This is a double edged sword. Let's start with Wovoka (Jack Wilson) and the Ghost Dance. His friendship with the Wilsons allowed him to enter into their family life and he often heard them read from the Bible. He had seen the dances of religious groups believing in the coming of a new era and had heard Christian biblical predictions of the end of the world and the salvation of only those people who had led good lives. He was also familiar with the prevalent Indian method of gaining knowledge from visions. He had two important ones. Because one of these trances coincided with a solar eclipse, its effect was overwhelming for his followers. The same thing happens to Christian evanglists. Thus he took from several religious groups and started his own movement. You know the rest of the story. I have many Arapaho friends that are Catholic and yet participate in sweats, fasts, sun dances, etc. Each person is using various aspects of different religious to find their "karma". What is wrong with that? I do not believe that people should charge for blessing a tipi or holding a sweat or whatever. That is just my opinion. You should offer something for the time and work they put into it. Their are many strange people out there beating drums, blowing whistles, having trances, sweats and kiva gatherings. If you choose to participate in them and want to pay or charge a fee for it. That is your business. I do not believe that the "elders" know everything. I do know that religious has changed for over 3000 year. All religious! Songs and rituals are forgotten. We learn to adapt. We take from one group to place within our special group, hoping it will "work for us" This is nothing new. I do not believe that the Indians have a patent on "native religion. To each their own. The "new age" is another belief. If it works for them, so be it. No one but God himself, I believe has all the answers. If you are insulted because of what others are doing with "your" religion, then maybe you are spending too much time looking around instead of upward. just a thought joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 06 Dec 2000 11:36:33 EST In a message dated 12/5/00 10:21:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, bestrong@cmc.net writes: << The House of America has many communities(tribes) and their are many dances to be learned and many songs to be sung. No one group owns them. If someone won't share, then dream it yourself. >> Thank you DRB Hays. YHOS C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 06 Dec 2000 11:36:34 EST << We don't get to see too many Native American at most Rendezvous. >> I run with several different groups out here in NY doing French and Indian and Rev War reinacting and Rendezvous. A few years back my wife met a full blood Seneca well working on the cerimonies to commerate (not celebrate) the signing of the Big Tree Treaty (post Sullivan Campaing). He was interested in reinacting as a way to learn more about his culture and history which he said was not taught to him by anyone. He is now active in one of the Ranger groups and you may have seen him recently on the cover of Muzzleloader magazine holding a wild turkey and a smoothbore. He is just one of many that are involved in learning and teaching the history in this part of the country. So you will find Native Americans to learn from and who want to learn from you as well in this hobby. If you are ever in the western NY area in late Aug try to get to the Newtow Battlefield Rev War reinactment. They have recreated a native (eastern) village in the park and it is interpreted by Native Americans. During the Rev War event it is inhabited by Rangers (Butlers, Brants etc) and non-natives and native Americans reinacting the Native Americans of the Rev War in Western NY. If you camp as part of the reinactment one of the great moments is walking from either the British or Colonial camps up the hill and entering the Native Village at night. On a moonless night you can go back in time. YHOS C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks Date: 06 Dec 2000 10:36:22 -0800 I think the tortoise-shell or other thin horn would be a good period material for a pick. Thin rawhide might also work, although it will probably fuzz and fray along the working edge. Have I also heard of using a goose quill? Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:37 PM Halloo the Camp...... I am a wondering.... for those of you out there who like to strum or pick a stringed period instrument during your sojourns... what do you substitute for a modern plastic pick? I am looking for a material that is suitably flexible to use on a dulcimer. I've tried wood, but it's too brittle when shaved thin. I'm now looking at an old broken horn of mine as a possible donor to the cause... possibly tortoise shell? Did picks even exist in the 17th and 18th century? I know dulcimers were there, along with several variants from Scandinavia and the Balkans.... Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Update Date: 06 Dec 2000 16:16:24 -0500 Just a quick note.. I have a new knife on my site today.... http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 I Now Offer Gift Certificates ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Woolen and buckskin leggings Date: 06 Dec 2000 16:41:38 EST I was reading in a book I found at the local library today in the juvenile nonfiction section regarding the fur trade era. titled "Mountain Men" by Don Berry. It looked like a great way to begin to share some with my younger brother-in-law and the kids next door. It tends to give an overview - hitting the highlights. In a part describing the clothing of the mtn. man it depicts some wearing buckskin pants to the knees wool sewn on from the knees down. Is this actually correct? The reason I ask is that I have enough skins (if they all tan out right) to make a set of short leggings and use a breechclout. I could use them same woolen material as the breechclout to make the lower portion of the pants and have at least half of a pc set of clothes. Supposedly, the reason for this style was that wool did not crack when it dried and dried faster from the repeated dunkings in streams. Thanks to all who reply. -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 06 Dec 2000 16:56:29 EST It does not happen by leading a good life. That is "fire insurance" Problem is...it runs out justbefore you die!!! (Any responses please post off-line as this has the potential for getting off subject)!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Update Date: 06 Dec 2000 17:54:43 -0600 Nice looking knives Dennis. Looks like you've been keeping yourself busy. northwoods ----- Original Message ----- Cc: "AMM" <ammlist@lists.xmission.com>; <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>; <Trade_Blanket@onelist.com> Sent: December 06, 2000 3:16 PM > Just a quick note.. I have a new knife on my site today.... > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > D > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > I Now Offer Gift Certificates > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Update Date: 06 Dec 2000 19:19:43 -0500 Northwoods Got to stay busy.. Wife chains me to the shop in the daytime...... Thnaks for the nice words on the stickers D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks Date: 06 Dec 2000 17:29:56 -0800 Dennis Miles wrote: > How about ivory from an old piano?? Send me your adddress and I will drop a > piece in the mail. Dennis Given it's current availability.... I didn't even think about ivory. I would be in your debt for a small sliver. My address is; Lee Newbill 1013 Matson Road Viola, Idaho 83872 Many Thanks from Idaho! Lee Newbill Pilgrim of the Wilson Price Hunt Party > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Wilde Weavery Date: 06 Dec 2000 17:46:44 -0800 Halloo For those that were unaware.... C.J. Wilde's blanket company, "Wild Weavery" now has a website, it's at http://www.wildeweavery.com/blankets.html Regards Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks Date: 06 Dec 2000 17:59:29 -0800 Halloo again Many thanks for the ideas on period materials for picks, I think I'm gonna try 'em all and see which one works the best and let y'all know. I actually tried a turkey quill, but it didn't work any better for a pick then it did when I tried to make an ink quill out of it. Linda... I don't seem to have the tune "Boiling Cabbage Down." in any of my books, so will have to go looking for it. On the picking with the fingers and nails.... ain't got no nails to speak of... I do pick and strum with the fingers when I like to play soft and low, but for volume and return strumming (on my dulcimer anyways), it works best for me with a flexible pick. Still Larnin things in Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Wire Coat Hangers Date: 06 Dec 2000 21:03:52 -0000 I was talking to a friend last weekend at a small rendezvous and he apologized for using wire coat hangers because they were not period. I had read something to the contrary a long time ago. I did some search engine research and found : http://www.fascrs.org/meeting/1999/activities99.html which describes Charlottesville - The Home of Thomas Jefferson. It says, "Many of his (Jefferson's) inventions, are displayed, including the seven day clock, wire coat hanger, folding eyeglasses, and the folding roll-top desk." Now I am not saying there were coat hangers out West, but maybe wire coat hangers of some sort are from that period. So for those with preconceived notions, let the yowling begin. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks Date: 06 Dec 2000 22:09:49 -0500 Lee... On its way in the morn..... Dennis Hiveranno, Doc Newell Party. Ohio ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 8:29 PM > Dennis Miles wrote: > > > How about ivory from an old piano?? Send me your adddress and I will drop a > > piece in the mail. > > Dennis > > Given it's current availability.... I didn't even think about ivory. I would be > in your debt for a small sliver. > > My address is; > > Lee Newbill > 1013 Matson Road > Viola, Idaho 83872 > > Many Thanks from Idaho! > > Lee Newbill > Pilgrim of the Wilson Price Hunt Party > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 06 Dec 2000 22:15:12 EST In a message dated 12/5/0 03:36:39 PM, deafstones@yahoo.com writes: <<I've been amused by a few of these 'demonstrations' of religious ceremonies in tipis at rendezvous. After one such demo, I gave my equally inept demonstration of a Jewish ceremony and was told to leave! Oh well. Yeah, it was inappropriate; so?>> Love It!! R. James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 06 Dec 2000 20:51:55 -0800 Jim, I went through all my current catalogues looking for snow shoes that I know I have seen for less than your quoted price below and can't find them. I am sure though that Cabela's has carried wood and rawhide snow shoes in several different designs, one of which might be your Ojibway design. And I believe I have seen The Sportsmans Guide carry them along with others. They are out there and at around $60. You might consider making your own using the design offered in the "Ben Hunt Indian Crafts" book. I don't know where you would get the book anymore but the snow shoes were not that hard to make. I made one pair for a buddy using Elm saplings and deer rawhide. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 06 Dec 2000 23:03:41 -0600 Roger Check Amazon for the Ben Hunt book. See below. Lanney http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/105-2175361-0793569 Hunt, W. Ben: Golden Book of Indian Crafts and Lore -- Price: $35.00=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:51 PM > Jim, >=20 > I went through all my current catalogues looking for snow shoes that I = know > I have seen for less than your quoted price below and can't find them. = I am > sure though that Cabela's has carried wood and rawhide snow shoes in = several > different designs, one of which might be your Ojibway design. And I = believe > I have seen The Sportsmans Guide carry them along with others. They = are out > there and at around $60. >=20 > You might consider making your own using the design offered in the = "Ben Hunt > Indian Crafts" book. I don't know where you would get the book anymore = but > the snow shoes were not that hard to make. I made one pair for a buddy = using > Elm saplings and deer rawhide. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. >=20 > Capt. Lahti' >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 06 Dec 2000 21:53:29 -0800 Lanney, Thanks. Did you get that Jim? Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:03 PM Roger Check Amazon for the Ben Hunt book. See below. Lanney http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/105-2175361-0793569 Hunt, W. Ben: Golden Book of Indian Crafts and Lore -- Price: $35.00 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:51 PM > Jim, > > I went through all my current catalogues looking for snow shoes that I know > I have seen for less than your quoted price below and can't find them. I am > sure though that Cabela's has carried wood and rawhide snow shoes in several > different designs, one of which might be your Ojibway design. And I believe > I have seen The Sportsmans Guide carry them along with others. They are out > there and at around $60. > > You might consider making your own using the design offered in the "Ben Hunt > Indian Crafts" book. I don't know where you would get the book anymore but > the snow shoes were not that hard to make. I made one pair for a buddy using > Elm saplings and deer rawhide. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wire Coat Hangers Date: 06 Dec 2000 22:23:30 -0800 If I was a dog soldier I'd allow wire coat hangers...if they followed Tom Jefferson's period design. Gotta photo of this anyone? Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 1:03 PM > I was talking to a friend last weekend at a small rendezvous and he > apologized for using wire coat hangers because they were not period. I had > read something to the contrary a long time ago. I did some search engine > research and found : > > http://www.fascrs.org/meeting/1999/activities99.html > > which describes Charlottesville - The Home of Thomas Jefferson. It says, > "Many of his (Jefferson's) inventions, are displayed, including the seven > day clock, wire coat hanger, folding eyeglasses, and the folding roll-top > desk." > > Now I am not saying there were coat hangers out West, but maybe wire coat > hangers of some sort are from that period. > > So for those with preconceived notions, let the yowling begin. > > Glenn Darilek > Iron Burner > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 07 Dec 2000 00:26:25 -0600 If you are going to spend that kind of money I think a better reference is "The Boy Mechanic" Book 2 Reprints of the entire 4 volume series are available at $19.95 per volume. Originals are only $25.00 and a complete set of original $195.00. Book 2 is the best of the series and the 2 sections on snowshoes are worth the price, there are 999 more "THINGS FOR BOYS TO DO". John... At 09:53 PM 12/6/00 -0800, you wrote: >Lanney, > >Thanks. Did you get that Jim? > >Capt. L > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> >To: "History List" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:03 PM >Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes > > >Roger >Check Amazon for the Ben Hunt book. See below. >Lanney > >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/105-2175361-0793569 > >Hunt, W. Ben: Golden Book of Indian Crafts and Lore -- Price: $35.00 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:51 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes > > > > Jim, > > > > I went through all my current catalogues looking for snow shoes that I >know > > I have seen for less than your quoted price below and can't find them. I >am > > sure though that Cabela's has carried wood and rawhide snow shoes in >several > > different designs, one of which might be your Ojibway design. And I >believe > > I have seen The Sportsmans Guide carry them along with others. They are >out > > there and at around $60. > > > > You might consider making your own using the design offered in the "Ben >Hunt > > Indian Crafts" book. I don't know where you would get the book anymore but > > the snow shoes were not that hard to make. I made one pair for a buddy >using > > Elm saplings and deer rawhide. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. > > > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin 1759 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 06 Dec 2000 23:08:41 -0800 Halloo Also.... although there doesn't appear to be any at the moment, Ebay (http://www.ebay.com) will occasionally have Ojibway snowshoes up for auction.... some quite old but still very serviceable. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Maryln Adams" <MIA3WOLVES@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wire Coat Hangers Date: 07 Dec 2000 06:45:18 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C06019.4364C3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is their some hidden meaning in your link or am I the only one that surfs= in the "American Society of Colon and Rectal Surgeons"? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 1:30 AM If I was a dog soldier I'd allow wire coat hangers...if they followed Tom Jefferson's period design. Gotta photo of this anyone? Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 1:03 PM > I was talking to a friend last weekend at a small rendezvous and he > apologized for using wire coat hangers because they were not period. I had > read something to the contrary a long time ago. I did some search engi= ne > research and found : > > http://www.fascrs.org/meeting/1999/activities99.html > > which describes Charlottesville - The Home of Thomas Jefferson. It say= s, > "Many of his (Jefferson's) inventions, are displayed, including the sev= en > day clock, wire coat hanger, folding eyeglasses, and the folding roll-t= op > desk." > > Now I am not saying there were coat hangers out West, but maybe wire co= at > hangers of some sort are from that period. > > So for those with preconceived notions, let the yowling begin. > > Glenn Darilek > Iron Burner > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C06019.4364C3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Is their some = hidden meaning in your link or am I the only one that surfs in the "Ameri= can Society of Colon and Rectal Surgeons"?<BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLO= CKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;= BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: = 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: = #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; FONT-COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Larry Hub= er</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, Dece= mber 07, 2000 1:30 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B>&nb= sp;hist_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>= If I was a dog soldier I'd allow wire coat hangers...if they followed Tom= <BR>Jefferson's period design. Gotta photo of this anyone?<BR><BR>&= nbsp; Larry Huber<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From= : Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net><BR>To: <hist_text@lists.xmissio= n.com><BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 1:03 PM<BR>Subject: MtMan= -List: Wire Coat Hangers<BR><BR><BR>> I was talking to a friend last w= eekend at a small rendezvous and he<BR>> apologized for using wire coa= t hangers because they were not period. I<BR>had<BR>> read somet= hing to the contrary a long time ago. I did some search engine<BR>&= gt; research and found :<BR>><BR>> http://www.fascrs.org/meeting/19= 99/activities99.html<BR>><BR>> which describes Charlottesville - Th= e Home of Thomas Jefferson. It says,<BR>> "Many of his (Jefferso= n's) inventions, are displayed, including the seven<BR>> day clock, wi= re coat hanger, folding eyeglasses, and the folding roll-top<BR>> desk= ."<BR>><BR>> Now I am not saying there were coat hangers out West, = but maybe wire coat<BR>> hangers of some sort are from that period.<BR= >><BR>> So for those with preconceived notions, let the yowling beg= in.<BR>><BR>> Glenn Darilek<BR>> Iron Burner<BR>><BR>><BR>= > ----------------------<BR>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmiss= ion.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR>><BR><BR>----------------------<= BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htm= l<BR><BR> <DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C06019.4364C3E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: She's nakid! Date: 07 Dec 2000 08:19:09 EST She's nakid, beautiful, and on the cover of "Instinctive Archer" magazine... well, mebbe "bare" is a better word. The bow was built for me by Dean Torges out of osage, and backed with bamboo. For a self bow, it's a rocket launcher, and primitive enough for most rendezvous... Now if I could just learn to shoot!...<G> Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wire Coat Hangers Date: 07 Dec 2000 09:32:43 -0500 Once again we fall back on... "Whats in my tent is nobodys business..." If some dog soldier wants to come into my tent (not dianond fly, etc... but TENT), and inspect whats in there, then they are gonna have a fight on their hands. Outside where the public or other reenactors can see, I am period as can be. Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: She's nakid! Date: 07 Dec 2000 09:33:55 -0500 Magpie! Congrats.... You will have a BALL with that bow... I traded Buck Conner out of one made by Ken Wee (sp) and My Wife started to like it a little too much, so I talked Paul Jones out of his and we have a grand time with them. Start with good grade commercial wood arrows and slowly collect or make traditional ones. I got two groundhogs this year with mine using traditional arrows with iron points I made and have been wandering the woods with it for deer. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 07 Dec 2000 08:41:03 -0600 I didn't find any for any cheaper so I ordered them from Andirondack Outdoors. I made a pair of neoprene ones using a Tubb kit before, so $84 wasn't a bad price to me. I've seen them in Sportsman's Guide before, but I think theirs usually use a plastic "runner" along the sides to attach the rawhide deck to. I wanted to stay away from that. I think I have that Ben Hunt book, I'd have to check to be sure. I'd just ordered The Boy Mechanic series too, but seems like the reprint is 3 vols. I searched eBay too. The ones I ordered may be seen at: http://www.adirondackoutdoor.com/catalog/trapping/baskets/woodenshoes.htm ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 07 Dec 2000 08:47:44 -0800 Jim, I took another look at my W. Ben Hunt book last night. It sold for $2.95 around 1976, and is called The Complete How-to Book of Indian Craft. Published by Collier Books 866 Third Avenue, NY. NY 10022. Probably not available at that price any more. If you want to take a shot at making your own, I will try to scan the page of instructions for you and send as a jpg file that you should be able to open and use. The directions are simple and if you have the rawhide and access to some elm saplings you should have a pair of snow shoes in just a few days. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:53 PM > Lanney, > > Thanks. Did you get that Jim? > > Capt. L > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> > To: "History List" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:03 PM > Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes > > > Roger > Check Amazon for the Ben Hunt book. See below. > Lanney > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/105-2175361-0793569 > > Hunt, W. Ben: Golden Book of Indian Crafts and Lore -- Price: $35.00 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:51 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes > > > > Jim, > > > > I went through all my current catalogues looking for snow shoes that I > know > > I have seen for less than your quoted price below and can't find them. I > am > > sure though that Cabela's has carried wood and rawhide snow shoes in > several > > different designs, one of which might be your Ojibway design. And I > believe > > I have seen The Sportsmans Guide carry them along with others. They are > out > > there and at around $60. > > > > You might consider making your own using the design offered in the "Ben > Hunt > > Indian Crafts" book. I don't know where you would get the book anymore but > > the snow shoes were not that hard to make. I made one pair for a buddy > using > > Elm saplings and deer rawhide. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. > > > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 07 Dec 2000 09:22:21 -0800 Jim, Sorry I didn't get back to you any sooner but what you ordered is what is described in the Ben Hunt book. He calls them Alaskan Eskimo Snow Shoes but it probably don't matter all that much as long as they are wood and rawhide. I have a pair of "Alaskan" shoes and "Ojibway" shoes as shown on that Adirondack web site. I generally always use the Alaskans as they have slightly more carrying cap. I also use an "Indian hitch" as described in the Ben Hunt Book to fasten the shoes to my feet rather than the leather strap and buckle system that is normally sold. I also like to use them with puckertoe/centerseam/vamped brain tan mocs rather than rubber shoe packs. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: She's nakid! Date: 07 Dec 2000 13:22:08 EST Hallo Dennis, <<I traded Buck Conner out of one made by Ken Wee....>> That's funny....A while back Buck asked me if I had any I'd let go! ....din't know you got his...<G> I've been terrorizing critters for about 30 years with a bow, but have been out smarted more often than not....still great fun! Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: She's nakid! Date: 07 Dec 2000 14:01:51 -0500 Magpie I got it and I am a keepin' it..<G> I had always shot recurves... Got my first "good" one back in 1971, a #55 pound pull from Herters in Minn. While on vacation... $125. Alot of dinero for an 11 yr old. Man, did I have to work my butt off that Summer..<G> (My Dad was a Surveyer & Civil Engineer and I was a "chain boy" which included driving iron spikes in pavement, tote'n stuff, chopping thru weeds and anything else he didn't want to do.... Come to think about it, I paid for that bow for several years..<G>) I have taked several deer with that bow, and still use it on occassion, but the self bow has stolen my heart..<BG> D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wire Coat Hangers Date: 07 Dec 2000 13:31:25 -0800 I agree. Of course I assume Glenn's friend was a trader and had a rack of capotes hung up for sale. I've seen wire coat hangers in traders' tents for that purpose...and I've seen sticks and cord used the same way. Depends on the Rendezvous rules. Also, the friend seemed embarrassed by the "modern" intrusion into the period world. I thought it showed concern and a desire to learn. I learned something by Glenn's post and would like to know more. Got any pictures? Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 6:32 AM > Once again we fall back on... "Whats in my tent is nobodys business..." If > some dog soldier wants to come into my tent (not dianond fly, etc... but > TENT), and inspect whats in there, then they are gonna have a fight on their > hands. Outside where the public or other reenactors can see, I am period as > can be. > > Ad Miller > Alderson, WV > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: She's nakid! Date: 07 Dec 2000 14:38:32 -0700 She's nakid, beautiful, and on the cover of "Instinctive Archer" magazine... well, mebbe "bare" is a better word. The bow was built for me by Dean Torges out of osage, and backed with bamboo. For a self bow, it's a rocket launcher, and primitive enough for most rendezvous... Now if I could just learn to shoot!...<G> Ymos, Magpie Magpie, Bring that bow along with your archery tackle for that bow over here and I will bet I can make a better shooter out of you overnight. Big gamble huh? <vbg> Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 07 Dec 2000 14:38:34 -0700 In a message dated 12/5/0 03:36:39 PM, deafstones@yahoo.com writes: <<I've been amused by a few of these 'demonstrations' of religious ceremonies in tipis at rendezvous. After one such demo, I gave my equally inept demonstration of a Jewish ceremony and was told to leave! Oh well. Yeah, it was inappropriate; so?>> Love It!! R. James Hello Deafstones and R. James, Where are you seeing this kind of activity? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 07 Dec 2000 14:42:13 -0700 I generally always use the Alaskans as they have slightly more carrying cap. I also use an "Indian hitch" as described in the Ben Hunt Book to fasten the shoes to my feet rather than the leather strap and buckle system that is normally sold. I also like to use them with puckertoe/centerseam/vamped brain tan mocs rather than rubber shoe packs. Capt. Lahti' Hello Capt', I like the way you have your snowshoes set up. The big long so called Alaskan or trail snowshoe was the only one I found that would carry my weight and a quarter of elk. Over deep soft snow as can be found on the front range of the mountains around the Original Lewis and Clark pass near Alice Creek and Green Mountain. The one where they said they could see the cloud moisture of the 5 great falls of the Missouri about 80 miles away. Good hunting. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matthew Hawley" <nastybeaver@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: please take me off the list Date: 07 Dec 2000 21:54:02 <html><DIV>please take me off the list thank u</DIV><br clear=all><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 07 Dec 2000 13:58:22 -0800 (PST) --- Walt Foster <Wfoster@cw2.com> wrote: > Hello Deafstones and R. James, > > Where are you seeing this kind of activity? > > Walt > Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 > Clark Bottom Rendezvous > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana The two High Plains NMLRA National Rendezvouses held in Camp Jordaan by Larned, KS. The first in 1985 put on by the Jedediah Smith Muzzling Club of Dodge City, Kansas where I was a first time visitor. Twas the best Rendezvous I've ever attended and I joined that club though I lived 90 miles away. The second one sponsored by the Kansas Muzzleloading Association; I was on the work crew then. Another good run run by a different crew and philosophy. A few regional ones in Kansas and one in Northwest Oklahoma. The second National is the one I was referring to. No names of witnesses will be offered, probably forgotten by others anyway. Save for a great State Shoot in Missouri, two Kansas-Nebraska Joint Rendezvous Nebraska, Primitive Rendezvous in Holly, Colorado and Laverne, Oklahoma, I haven't been to alot. The best ones were out of state due to new history, locales and people of course. Got to get out of our wagon wheel ruts, you know? ===== deafstones What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is. Vice President Dan Quayle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 07 Dec 2000 15:09:57 -0700 When I needed to be recharged I would seek a redevous. The Big timber Montana redevous of !976 (?) was a week long epiphany. A 100 lodges, 75 or more lean-tos---waking up to the bag pipes, fire-walking with canucks and people that had rode in from far away left memories that have never been duplicated at any pow wow . Hello DRB Hays, The rendezvous near Big Timber, Montana was at the Phariss's place was it not? Do you remember any of the Montanans? Did you ever get to the winter rendezvous near Park City, Montana? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 07 Dec 2000 15:14:48 -0800 > Good hunting. > > Walt Walt, Thanks. The hunting was good. The killing was poor. Eating leftover jerk from last years kill. Maybe some fresh meat next year. <G> Capt. Lahti' At the Forks of the Columbia on the Lewis and Clark Trail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 07 Dec 2000 17:05:50 -0700 Walt, Thanks. The hunting was good. The killing was poor. Eating leftover jerk from last years kill. Maybe some fresh meat next year. <G> Capt. Lahti' At the Forks of the Columbia on the Lewis and Clark Trail Good Capt', Last Saturday we had 12 pounds of this years jerked meat and three 8 pound cakes. Cooked in guess what. Yep, a 10" cast iron camp oven. I sure have had fun hunting this year. It is not over yet. We have some good cold weather hunting coming up over the weekend. They have been selling 8 dollar B tags in some areas around here. Been passing me by. My family is so small and my teeth so pore that I cook the jerk like chipped beef on toast. <vbg> We had a good time at the museum up on the rimrocks. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jay Geisinger" <poorboy@ieway.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks Date: 07 Dec 2000 19:41:02 -0800 Klahowya My Friends, Lee, The guitar and other percussion instruments have been around for centuries. Early (How early I have not been able to assertain) picks were made from very large fish scales. You may remember years ago seeing picks that were somewhat translucent and had various swirling designs in them. The cheap ones were plastic, but the good ones were fish scales. Most are made from the scales of the drum fish (no pun intended). The black drum and the red drum are found along the Atlantic coast, can reach 40+ pounds and exceed 50 inches in length. they are quite edible, and at one time were a full fledged industrial interest. In our part of the country one could possible obtain a large carp scale that could be dried, heat hardened, and shaped. YMOS PoorBoy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks Date: 07 Dec 2000 20:24:39 -0800 In our part of the country one could > possible obtain a large carp scale that could be dried, heat hardened, and > shaped. No need to go to any special trouble finding a carp scale around here. Just walk the banks of the Snake or Columbia with your dog. He will find a carp laying along the bank and start rolling in it. You simply pick off the scale of your choice. If it is very late in the spring, I assure you it has been dried and heat hardened already! <G> Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: She's nakid! Date: 07 Dec 2000 23:33:15 EST In a message dated 12/7/00 4:40:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, Wfoster@cw2.com writes: > She's nakid, beautiful, and on the cover of "Instinctive Archer" magazine... > well, mebbe "bare" is a better word. PICTURES PICTURES PICTURES where are the pictures? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 08 Dec 2000 07:55:00 -0600 My snowshoes arrived, they did have the plastic where the front and back decks attach. Other than that they're fine. Just a bit dis-appointed because I specifically asked if there was any plastic on them. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 08 Dec 2000 08:50:56 -0800 Jim, Sorry to see that you didn't get what you wanted. I am at a bit of a loss to picture how plastic would be used where wood and raw hide should work just fine. Have you considered replacing the "plastic" with rawhide? The material is very easy to work with and after it's dry, a coat of varnish will make it look like it belonged there. Still scratching my head, I remain........ YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:55 AM > My snowshoes arrived, they did have the plastic where the front and back > decks attach. Other than that they're fine. Just a bit dis-appointed > because I specifically asked if there was any plastic on them. > > Jim > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes Date: 08 Dec 2000 17:25:57 EST In a message dated 12/8/00 5:55:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, jal@cray.com writes: << Just a bit dis-appointed because I specifically asked if there was any plastic on them. >> if'n it was me, I'd specifically return them, get a credit and save the money for the ones that you want. I don't know where you got them, but both Cabela's and Sportsman's Guide are really good about backing their stuff up. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Miss. Stuff Date: 08 Dec 2000 21:27:18 -0700 Hallo the list, Reading through Warren A. Ferris' book again, I came across a few interesting things. A while back someone on the list was asking about spurs. From page 243: "Dashing my spurs rowel deep into the flank of my noble steed....." For Jill, documentation for mountain men doing stomach cooking: from page 315, "Taking the digestive ventricle of a deer, which had previously been cleaned for food, we filled it with snow, and then putting in heated stones, continued operation until we were at length proprietors of a whole gallon of water, which auspicious event, was duly celebrated by proper rejoicings." From Nathaniel Wyeth's journal, on page 78, we have mountain men digging and using camas; "Killed some dusky grouse and dug some kamas which assisted our living a little..." Also from Wyeth, pg 94, the first time I actually found a mountain man eating beaver tail, "...this morning breakfasted on two beaver tails which I had laid by..." Can anyone explain this treatment? From Wyeth, pg 98, "...traded 8 dogs for their fat to kill the lice onmy horses." The interesting thing about Wyeth's journal is that he was always trading fish hooks for things from the Natives. Well, that's all for now. Take care everyone, Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miss. Stuff Date: 08 Dec 2000 23:54:44 -0800 Good stuff, Allan. Thanks. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 8:27 PM > Hallo the list, > > Reading through Warren A. Ferris' book again, I came across a few > interesting things. > > A while back someone on the list was asking about spurs. From page 243: > "Dashing my spurs rowel deep into the flank of my noble steed....." > > For Jill, documentation for mountain men doing stomach cooking: from page > 315, "Taking the digestive ventricle of a deer, which had previously been > cleaned for food, we filled it with snow, and then putting in heated stones, > continued operation until we were at length proprietors of a whole gallon of > water, which auspicious event, was duly celebrated by proper rejoicings." > > From Nathaniel Wyeth's journal, on page 78, we have mountain men digging and > using camas; "Killed some dusky grouse and dug some kamas which assisted our > living a little..." > > Also from Wyeth, pg 94, the first time I actually found a mountain man > eating beaver tail, "...this morning breakfasted on two beaver tails which I > had laid by..." > > Can anyone explain this treatment? From Wyeth, pg 98, "...traded 8 dogs for > their fat to kill the lice onmy horses." > > The interesting thing about Wyeth's journal is that he was always trading > fish hooks for things from the Natives. > > Well, that's all for now. > > Take care everyone, > > Allen > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: cultural appropriation Date: 10 Dec 2000 05:28:10 -0700 well well now!!! sorry i have to come out of the shadows, prezz forgive my bad spelling and grammer. and please do not get mad if i plase my words wrong. has everyone knows i am of the hiverent metis and have relitives on both sides of the rez border. i have ran both sides for most of my long years. in my home there is the pipe and the bible also i have been to the church and the sweat. the sun dance, 100 rock sweats and differents churchs. because of my mix blood i have been asked before ,to try and show the way of bridge between the indian and white and belief me there are very narrow minds on both sides. buckskinning i like and have been a part of sence it came to montana. buckskinning has done alot of helping in save some of the native culture. on some rez i see some old ways comeing back and some need to surface yet ,but will come back when the time is right. but on some rez's no interest of the old ways. but also on both sides i see alot of people that do not want to open there mined to a different way. religion is a very personal thing. what ever your is , is yours, mine is mine, but if it helps you be a better persons to your fellow man then stay with it and respect mine. this one statment i have trouble with but have found it true to have someone copy your ways or whatever is the biggest complement. of the different tribes, their are different as a englishman and a gearmen. if some one ask to be paid for a sweat or pipe cerom.(then it is not a religous man that is running that cerom. but at the same time you should give him four thing (none which are whiteman monye) i see the new agers and buckskinners that are doing <indian cerom.s> in tipis and sweat. but becarefull there are guys like me that been at the real ceroms. i will speak out if you claim real and can,t show me real. there are also indians that have became bible preachers to . one for montan that is repected by bouth sides of table Joe walksfare. so we have cross roaders on both side of talbe. as i try and show the bridge to people i have run into calments. that i think come from not not knowing full story. one, <those tent stacks with the carving on are sign of the divel.> <you should not have brain tanned leather because it is holy> but for every small remark, i have hear a hundred good ones. and yes untell a few years ago you did not let people know your had indian blood and i still watch want i say in a group. but it getting so on the rez you want to keep the white blood under cover. i see more more indians in buckskinning the slownes maybe because of lack of money and not knowing about buckskinning.so spread the word. long live buckskinning, i love it. ponyrider (french) cavalier de poney (crow) ejla galgna ejla galgna _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: Re: MtMan-List: camp names Date: 10 Dec 2000 14:47:44 -0700 ---- Begin Original Message ---- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Sent: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:28:12 -0500 ------------------------ "how many times has one's name changed through the years and not by choice, right Dennis." Concho, Yup...<>G D (Deux Espouses, A name that is seldom used by anyone other than close friends, but has endured for many a year) ---- End Original Message ---- Hey Dennis, Just walked in the house from Colorado, went to see Buck and a few other old friends in that territory, colder than all get out one day - then sweat your tailfeathers the next, love it. Talk about name changes over the years, Mr. Conner started out with a christian name of Barry, nick name "Buck" when a kid - after his great uncle, "Wounded Barr" when writing for Buckskin Report, "Governer" when doing F&I period, "Trader" when in the positon several times, a few that can not be used on the internet and now back to "Buck". Myself like you Dennis have always been "sweetie" to the ladies and "butthole" to all others. Glad to be back home, got the fire going and getting warm. Later, Daniel L. "Concho" Smith Research & Documentation for: _____________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT ________________________________________HRD__ Visit these period camp sites at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ _____________________________________________ Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Holidays with the Corp of Discovery Christmas Date: 10 Dec 2000 14:54:55 -0700 ---- Begin Original Message ---- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> of Discovery Christmas Buck, I think you were the one who posted the Thanksgiving of the Corp of Discovery. =A0I used it as a Scoutmaster's Minute last week at our Troop meeting and the boys applauded. =A0I was pleasantly surprised by that. =A0I thought others in the group may be interested too. Thanks for the postings, Jim ---- End Original Message ---- Jim, Buck's computer went on the blink and he couldn't reply and asked me to let you know that several like yourself have replied with like messages. He wanted to thank you for your remarks. Interesting how the youth respond to such readings, they seem to not be paying any attention and then they surprise you like this. Makes you feel good that something has made a dent in their little pumpkin's, wonder if our parents felt the same? Later, Daniel L. "Concho" Smith Research & Documentation for: _____________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT ________________________________________HRD__ Visit these period camp sites at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ _____________________________________________ Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Susan Gilbert" <sgilbert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 11 Dec 2000 16:43:36 -0600 (CST) Hello the list, I would like the collective wisdom of the group. My husband and I are planning a trip to Yellowstone next year. We want to go to several Voo events on the way out and back. We don't want to pack all our camping gear, modern and period, for the trip. What experience do you all have with camping in a modern campground with period gear? Does it attract too much attention? Is it safe to leave camp to go exploring? We have no problems or worries at a re-enacting event, but are afraid the place will be stripped if we don't stay in camp all the time when we need to camp in a modern campground. Am I being paranoid, or are these concerns real? Any advice or experience would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sue Gilbert 6 Beaver Camp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 11 Dec 2000 16:14:37 -0700 Hello Sue, My first question is, if you have all your camping gear with you, why are you staying in a camp ground at all? In the national forest, you can camp almost anywhere you want to. I have camped all over the Rocky Mtn west my entire life and have only stayed in a campground a handful of times. But, if you must, let me say that I have also NEVER had any problems with leaving my camp behind while I spent the day exploring. Around here, if you venture too far into anyone's "space", you better be prepared to defend yourself. I would never imagine poking around someone's tent when not invited. The thought of picking buck shot from my behind and everywhere else is not something I would enjoy. Anyway, a primitive camp in a modern campground does attract some attention. My family camps with most all of our primitive accoutrements on a regular basis. I've met some great people who just wanted to come and see what was going on. One tip, though, I don't leave very expensive things in or around my tent when leaving for the day. My precious semi-custom flintlock goes with me. Are you traveling through Colorado? If you want some places to camp that are "off the beaten path", contact me off list and I can probably steer you to some places that not too many pork eaters even know about. Have a great trip, Lou SIckler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: Susan Gilbert [SMTP:sgilbert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu] > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 3:44 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? > > Hello the list, > > I would like the collective wisdom of the group. My husband and I are > planning a trip to Yellowstone next year. We want to go to several Voo > events on the way out and back. We don't want to pack all our camping > gear, modern and period, for the trip. > What experience do you all have with camping in a modern campground with > period gear? Does it attract too much attention? Is it safe to leave camp to > go exploring? We have no problems or worries at a re-enacting event, but > are afraid the place will be stripped if we don't stay in camp all the time when > we need to camp in a modern campground. > Am I being paranoid, or are these concerns real? Any advice or experience > would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Sue Gilbert > 6 Beaver Camp > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 11 Dec 2000 16:38:51 -0800 Dear Sue, If you have a tent with door flaps that tie, you are about as safe as you can expect to be in a public place. I generally camp with a tarp lean-to with all my gear exposed but that is only when camping with my party away from public campgrounds. When I go to Rendezvous that admit the public, I take a wedge tent so I can tie my door flaps shut. This should say "stay out-private" to most folks. If you camp in a tipi be prepared for visitors no matter if you close the door or not. Now most of my experience has been with the public that go to events that expecting to see primitive gear. They think their day-pass entitles them to free-access to everything. It's important to be around to explain "canvas courtesies" to them. I haven't camped much in public campgrounds in primitive gear except for hunting camps. I admit to a paranoia about public campgrounds and generally require a "camp guard" be left behind (Dog, wife, surly friend). Louis, here, has had different experiences and I hope his version of the world is the correct one. I agree that you should lock valuable stuff up in the car, out of sight. Canvas is only as thick as a person's conscience. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 3:14 PM setting? > Hello Sue, > > My first question is, if you have all your camping gear with you, why are you staying in a camp ground at all? In the national forest, you can camp almost anywhere you want to. I have camped all over the Rocky Mtn west my entire life and have only stayed in a campground a handful of times. But, if you must, let me say that I have also NEVER had any problems with leaving my camp behind while I spent the day exploring. Around here, if you venture too far into anyone's "space", you better be prepared to defend yourself. I would never imagine poking around someone's tent when not invited. The thought of picking buck shot from my behind and everywhere else is not something I would enjoy. > > Anyway, a primitive camp in a modern campground does attract some attention. My family camps with most all of our primitive accoutrements on a regular basis. I've met some great people who just wanted to come and see what was going on. > > One tip, though, I don't leave very expensive things in or around my tent when leaving for the day. My precious semi-custom flintlock goes with me. > > Are you traveling through Colorado? If you want some places to camp that are "off the beaten path", contact me off list and I can probably steer you to some places that not too many pork eaters even know about. > > Have a great trip, > > Lou SIckler > Colorado Territory > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Susan Gilbert [SMTP:sgilbert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu] > > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 3:44 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? > > > > Hello the list, > > > > I would like the collective wisdom of the group. My husband and I are > > planning a trip to Yellowstone next year. We want to go to several Voo > > events on the way out and back. We don't want to pack all our camping > > gear, modern and period, for the trip. > > What experience do you all have with camping in a modern campground with > > period gear? Does it attract too much attention? Is it safe to leave camp to > > go exploring? We have no problems or worries at a re-enacting event, but > > are afraid the place will be stripped if we don't stay in camp all the time when > > we need to camp in a modern campground. > > Am I being paranoid, or are these concerns real? Any advice or experience > > would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Sue Gilbert > > 6 Beaver Camp > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 11 Dec 2000 19:53:03 EST > One tip, though, I don't leave very expensive things in or around my tent > when leaving for the day. My precious semi-custom flintlock goes with me. Louis, I think she said she was going to Yellowstone. Perhaps the thought of carrying a firearm into said park should be addressed. Good way to end up in jail with a felony conviction hanging over your head and all your gear confiscated. I don't know about other national parks, but guns ain't allowed in Yellowstone. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 11 Dec 2000 19:25:41 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: December 11, 2000 6:53 PM setting? > . I don't know about other national parks, but guns ain't allowed > in Yellowstone. I think that if you left them cased and in your automobile it wouldn't be a problem. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 11 Dec 2000 18:21:44 -0800 Hi Susan, All I have is 'primitive' camping gear. I have camped in public campgrounds, and Nat. Forest type campgrounds with it. I have not received much extra attention due to my camp equip.. I find that most folks politely ignore you, except for your immediate 'neighbors'. They are usually just being polite when giving any attention. I would not leave anything especially valuable in a nylon, or canvas, tent. Either will only keep an honest person honest. So, I say...go for it.... don't be embarrassed. Be Proud. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:32:39 -0600 Date: 11 Dec 2000 19:37:05 -0700 Ho the list Beware that there is a worm being circulated. Email with attachments = from Bruce Mikesell is one source. Bruce's computer is down because of = the problem and possibly Larry Pendleton's too. =20 It is always a good idea not to open attachments from people you don't = know, but someone you DO know might be passing along a worm without = knowing about it. Remember the KAK worm last year? I have an online, = continously updated virus scan (McAfeel.com) that has kept me clean = since I got it. That and other scan programs seem to work. Just a Word of Caution Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:32:39 -0600 Date: 11 Dec 2000 18:49:13 -0800 (PST) --- Ratcliff <rat@htcomp.net> wrote: > Ho the list > Beware that there is a worm being circulated. Email with attachments > from Bruce Mikesell is one source. Bruce's computer is down because of > the problem and possibly Larry Pendleton's too. > It is always a good idea not to open attachments from people you don't > know, but someone you DO know might be passing along a worm without > knowing about it. Remember the KAK worm last year? I have an online, > continously updated virus scan (McAfeel.com) that has kept me clean > since I got it. That and other scan programs seem to work. > Just a Word of Caution > Lanney Ratcliff For an excellent free virus scan, try, Computer Associates' InoculateIT Personal Edition http://antivirus.cai.com/ For business use, you have to pay. For private use, it's free and IMHO, better than Norton's and McAfee, no offense to Lanney. *grin* ===== deafstones The most merciful thing in the world . . . is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H. P. Lovecraft __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:32:39 -0600 Date: 11 Dec 2000 19:07:42 -0800 > For an excellent free virus scan, try, Computer Associates' InoculateIT > Personal Edition > > http://antivirus.cai.com/ > > For business use, you have to pay. For private use, it's free and IMHO, > better than Norton's and McAfee, no offense to Lanney. *grin* This is the anti-virus program I am using and it seems to be working fine. They send me updates quite frequently and it is free. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 11 Dec 2000 23:00:51 EST > I think that if you left them cased and in your automobile it wouldn't be a > problem. I think that you could be mistaken. You would do so under penalty of law. I know!! I took the chance. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 11 Dec 2000 23:03:20 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: December 11, 2000 10:00 PM setting? > I think that you could be mistaken. You would do so under penalty of law. > I know!! I took the chance. > Dave Kanger Check out this website Dave: www.americanparknetwork.com/parkinfo/ye/aag/regulations.html In part it says: "Firearms are not allowed in Yellowstone. Unloaded firearms may be transported in vehicles when weapons are cased, broken down, or rendered inoperable, and kept out of sight. Ammunition must be placed in a separate compartment of the vehicle." northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: A great man passes Date: 12 Dec 2000 00:05:52 EST Ho list, I know this is not exactly a "mtn. man topic" but maybe it is. All of us have folks in our past who contributed to our path of loving and revering the old ideals and ways of doing some things and buckskinning. My Uncle Ray was one of those...he showed respect for the land, hard work and doing things right. He helped give me these ideals that I find I love and that drew me towards buckskinning. He also believed in "doing the right thing" - and when country and duty called him to Korea he went and fought. Today, he crossed over after a long and well-fought battle with cancer...taking a lifetime of experiences with him and leaving a lifetime of memories to be shared around our fires with family and friends. Thanks for listening. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 12 Dec 2000 00:27:02 EST Hey Sue My wife and I go more to "other" events than Rendezvous these days. All we have is the primitive gear. The gent that mentioned not leaving any thing valuable laying around is certainly using good sense. We have some expensive lanterns that get put in the trunk when we are not at camp. We go to a lot of dance festivals. So everybody there is in the same boat. I do have to say that we have been going to a zydeco/Cajun festival for about 5 years now and we are known as the people with the canvas tents. Also if anyone there is a re enactor they will immediately come up to you and introduce themselves. Go have a good time, use your head Have a great Holiday John ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A great man passes Date: 11 Dec 2000 22:07:09 -0800 Thanks for sharing. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 12 Dec 2000 01:28:23 EST > Check out this website Dave: > www.americanparknetwork.com/parkinfo/ye/aag/regulations.html > In part it says: > "Firearms are not allowed in Yellowstone. Unloaded firearms may be > transported in vehicles when weapons are cased, broken down, or rendered > inoperable, and kept out of sight. Ammunition must be placed in a separate > compartment of the vehicle." I only know from experience. My family and I went on a backpack trip in the primitive buffer zone which surrounds Yellowstone. It was an area where I had hunted elk and where I had observed numerous griz traps to capture renegade bears who kept escaping from the park. For this reason, I carried a 44 Mag on the trip. Probably not sufficient, but insurance just the same as it was loaded with very hot handloads. After our trip, we went into Yellowstone via the NE entrance. They had a small customs type station set up. The signs plainly read, "NO FIREARMS IN PARK." The ranger asked if we had any firearms with us. I said no, as it was well hidden in the trailer. I got the impression that had we not been a family group, they might have searched our vehicle. I also got the impression that if one entered with a firearm, one would leave it at the station and recover it when leaving. As I said, I can only base this on my personal experience, not something that is written on a webpage. Anyone else is free to believe what they want. Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 12 Dec 2000 12:15:02 -0500 sue--- can give you a couple of places in new mexico to camp and a couple in arkansas if the need arizes---not KOA Type of places--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A great man passes Date: 12 Dec 2000 05:22:19 -0700 -C. Kent, It is always a shame when a good man dies- sorry to hear it. I hope he continues to live on many years in your family by the telling and retelling of his stories and the sharing of the articles which were dear to him. In your last email you commented on making leggings with wool at the bottoms. There wasn't much comment on them, but I had never seen any of these. With leggings, they come off so easily that added cloth to the bottom is something unusual. Unless you had just out grown them. On my girls' leather dresses you can see how they were lengthened and addded to a couple times. And this is fairly typical on old children's clothes. I wonder too, who told you that leather can split and crack? I hadn't had that happen (except at the seams, which were under alot of stress). Leather will stretch, bag, even pick up all kinds of stickers which plague you for days; but alot of misconceptions are around about leather garments. mike. HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Ho list, > > I know this is not exactly a "mtn. man topic" but maybe it is. All of us > have folks in our past who contributed to our path of loving and revering the > old ideals and ways of doing some things and buckskinning. My Uncle Ray was > one of those...he showed respect for the land, hard work and doing things > right. He helped give me these ideals that I find I love and that drew me > towards buckskinning. He also believed in "doing the right thing" - and when > country and duty called him to Korea he went and fought. Today, he crossed > over after a long and well-fought battle with cancer...taking a lifetime of > experiences with him and leaving a lifetime of memories to be shared around > our fires with family and friends. > > Thanks for listening. > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 12 Dec 2000 07:13:13 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: December 12, 2000 12:28 AM setting? > As I said, I can only base this on my personal experience, not something that > is written on a webpage. Anyone else is free to believe what they want. > > Dave I here what your saying Dave. I went in under the same circumstances more than once. Last evening I did e-mail an official at the park and ask about firearms in the park and he said, "Mr. Clark, Firearms are OK as long as they are unloaded, broken down, and remain in the vehicle at all times. Check with rangers when you enter. Also, hope you are talking about next summer, b/c you cannot drive through in winter (too much snow!)" Thanks, Tim Bradshaw Jackson Hole Net >northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 12 Dec 2000 08:01:57 -0700 Dave, I didn't tell her to take a gun, it was only an example of something I wouldn't leave behind for the unscrupulous. Lou > -----Original Message----- > From: ThisOldFox@aol.com [SMTP:ThisOldFox@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:53 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? > > > One tip, though, I don't leave very expensive things in or around my tent > > when leaving for the day. My precious semi-custom flintlock goes with me. > > Louis, > I think she said she was going to Yellowstone. Perhaps the thought of > carrying a firearm into said park should be addressed. Good way to end up in > jail with a felony conviction hanging over your head and all your gear > confiscated. I don't know about other national parks, but guns ain't allowed > in Yellowstone. > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A great man passes Date: 12 Dec 2000 11:48:18 EST In a message dated 12/12/00 7:26:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, amm1616@earthlink.net writes: << I wonder too, who told you that leather can split and crack? I hadn't had that happen (except at the seams, which were under alot of stress). I had read this in a book actually written about mtn. men for juveniles. The author's name was Don Berry (I believe) and the rest of his information (re: trading, trapping methods, rifles, voos, etc.) agreed with what I have read in a variety of other "adult" resources. In this he commented on trappers clothing and stated that some trappers wore full-length leather leggings while others put woolen fabric on the lower half of each legging because it dried faster after repeated dunkings in streams and was less likely to crack afters weeks and weeks of this. My question is was this PC s I have enough hides to get a knee/shin length set of leggings but not full length. If it was pc I could put woolen on the bottom of the leggings when I make them and have a pair of pc britches. Hope that explains it well. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A great man passes Date: 12 Dec 2000 09:13:31 -0800 My question is was this PC s I have enough > hides to get a knee/shin length set of leggings but not full length. If it > was pc I could put woolen on the bottom of the leggings when I make them and > have a pair of pc britches. > Hope that explains it well. C.Kent, With that further explanation......<G> A more "PC" solution to your query would be to make a pair of drop front knee length britches or full length pantaloons and use the leather for "above the knee" leggings. There does not seem to be a whole lot of documentation if any for Mt. Men wearing full length leggings with breechcloth, though it was done back east in earlier times and may have been done out west as an expedient. Even so, no one gets particularly excited if clout and leggings are worn out west. Even though it has been written that wool was added to the bottom of Leggings and Britches I personally don't see it as being very practical. Much easier to take off wet knee length leggings to dry while still dressed in knee britches. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 12 Dec 2000 12:34:01 EST Sue Gilbert You were wise to ask about your planned trip. Guns - you got the"official word". I have been through Yellowstone many times over the last 40 years and was asked perhaps twice if I had guns. I always did. Many years ago I understand they used to put a seal on them that had to remain unbroken when you left, but no more. Just keep them packed away - never to be seen in the park. South of Yellowstone is Teton national park. This is also a no-shooting area. I don't know where else you are going but in the Yellowstone area there are the conservative western Wyoming folks that have a high regard for gun ownership. But concentrated in Yellowstone are the tourists that come in from everywhere. I can more easily trust foreigners in these circumstances than I can big city northeasterners or Californios. Tipis will attract attention but the locals in a broad radius around Yellowstone are used to them. Moose Wyoming was the home of the Laubins, when they were still with us, and they left a heavy mark - lots of tipis in the area (and a few yurts). Most people who camp in the Yellowstone campgrounds leave their camps during the day to tour the park. One of the best things you can do there - or in similar other camp grounds is to try to establish a friendly relationship with your neighbor campers so they will know who are the authorized inhabitants of your camp. I have never had any problem with theft in any of these camps but you never know when that one "slicky-boy" will be moving around to take advantage. Best you can do is keep as much of the high value stuff in your vehicle and button your shelter up tight. And, of course, secure all your food or take it with you. Not all "invaders" are two-footed. And if you are around the west entrance to the park - specifically Cody, Wyoming - be sure to stop at Old Trail Town and visit John "the liver eater" Johnston's grave. Many people who go to Cody are so overwhelmed (rightly so) with the Buffalo Bill Museum they can't imagine another remarkable site would be in that small town. I wish you a good trip Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DRB Hays" <bestrong@cmc.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Date: 12 Dec 2000 09:38:19 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 2:09 PM > Hello DRB Hays, > > The rendezvous near Big Timber, Montana was at the Phariss's place was it > not? The name sounds right. That would be an honoring as those that host such doings are special people. Do you remember any of the Montanans? Not by name , other than Baird and a fella named mike-- think he was trapping in the bitterroots full time. Remember a Montanan that walked thru camp one day and said, "boys you might want to throw a rope over them lodge poles cause a storm was on the way". We listened. It came hard. A hide lodge was a long time drying. Remember the grasshoppers hitting the side of the lodge like rain , and later finding them in the camp stew. It was good stew. Did you ever get to the winter > rendezvous near Park City, Montana? No, never did get to Winter Park. Still miss NAPR and the Buckskin Report. Came back to California and started a magazine called the Voice of the Mountains. Too many rules. Gave it up. Had a high mountain rendevous a while later and a couple of the candadians from Big Timber came down. One fella got his new rig stuck in the middle of a stream trying to ford it. Left it there with the doors open to let the water run thru and walked the next three miles in to camp. Thats what I remember about a lot of the people I met that year at Big timber. It was good meeting people that understood it was important to say what you mean , and mean what you say. Doc ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A great man passes Date: 12 Dec 2000 13:00:16 EST In a message dated 12/12/0 09:51:31 AM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: << My question is was this PC s I have enough hides to get a knee/shin length set of leggings but not full length. If it was pc I could put woolen on the bottom of the leggings when I make them and have a pair of pc britches. Hope that explains it well. >> Didn't we do this last week? Anyway - read Osborn Russell's "Journal of a Trapper". He talks about the lower part of the buckskin britches goin rotten well into the season and it was replaces with a piece of blanket. He also says their moccasins - having been equally soaked - would dry up in the night shrink, causing such pain as to wake the wearer who would go get them wet again and return to his reverie. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> Subject: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 12 Dec 2000 13:02:49 -0600 My best friend and I toured extensively through North and South Dakota 7 years ago. My rig is a Jeep YJ with a light-weight long-tongued trailer (home-made) with a lockable box on each side (for storage) and the poles for my 14 foot tipi go down the centre. We camped in a few public campgrounds (when we weren't camping on Reserves) and we never had a problem. As suggested, valuable should not be left in a tent (I stored mine in the lockable boxes on the trailer) but no one even touched the tipi. The only possible down side was the crowds that would follow us to our camp site to watch the tipi go up (better to have this down pat before you do it in front of a crowd) and the number of strangers that would come visiting. People were very respectful and genuinely interested. (I was surprised by the number of people who saw the long-tongued trailer in Sioux country and immediately knew it was for a tipi!) Primitive camping in public is good, if you don't mind company! (P.S. we spent part of that trip dodging tornadoes, fierce winds, hail falling in chunks the size of apples, incredible down-pours and the tipi went through some of the worst weather I have ever encountered. We were snug, warm, dry, and well-fed while modern tents were blown away into the lake and other people sat and huddled in the cold and dark. Damn I love my tipi!) Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A great man passes Date: 12 Dec 2000 18:01:01 -0800 C Kent, I have read where Joe Meek talked about getting ready for the spring hunt. They cut off the bottoms of their pant legs , and sewed on wool blanketing...for the reason of continous dunkings, ease of drying. Also wool retains much of its "R" value when wet. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@favorites.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 12 Dec 2000 21:38:59 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C06483.EFE92020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since the subject of Yellowstone was brought up I thought it might be = interesting to read from one of its earlier visiters. =20 We found the springs situated in the middle of a small shallow stream, = in the open level prairie. Rising from the middle of the brook, were = seen seven or eight semi globular mounds self-formed by continual = deposites of a calcarious nature, which time had hardened to the = consistency of rock. Some of them were thirty or forty feet in = circumference at the base, and seven or eight feet high. Each of them = had one or more small apertures (similar in appearance to the mouth of a = jug) out of which the water boils continually, and these generally, = though not invariably, at the top of the mound. The water that boils = over, deposits continually a greenish, slimy, foeted cement, externally = about the orifices, by constant accretions of which, the mounds are = formed. The water in these springs was so hot, that we could not bear = our fingers in it a moment, and a dense suffocating sulphurous vapour is = constantly rising from them. In the bases of the mounds, there were also = occasional cavities from which vapour or boiling water was continually = emitted. Some of the mounds have long since exploded, and been left dry = by the water. They were hollow, and filled with shelving cavities not = unlike honey-comb. These singular springs are known to the Rocky = Mountain hunters by the name of the Boiling Kettles, and are justly = regarded as great curiosities. After spending a couple of hours very = agreeably in examining these remarkable fountains, we returned to camp, = well satisfied for the fatigue of thirty miles' travel, by the = opportunity we had enjoyed of perusing one of the most interesting pages = of the great book of nature. A fair day and a beautiful prospect, = enhanced the pleasure and reward of our excursion. Ferris; Chapter 10=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C06483.EFE92020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana> <P>Since the subject of Yellowstone was brought up I thought it might be = interesting to read from one of its earlier visiters. </P> <P> </P> <P>We found the springs situated in the middle of a small shallow = stream, in the=20 open level prairie. Rising from the middle of the brook, were seen seven = or=20 eight semi globular mounds self-formed by continual deposites of a = calcarious=20 nature, which time had hardened to the consistency of rock. Some of them = were=20 thirty or forty feet in circumference at the base, and seven or eight = feet high.=20 Each of them had one or more small apertures (similar in appearance to = the mouth=20 of a jug) out of which the water boils continually, and these generally, = though=20 not invariably, at the top of the mound. The water that boils over, = deposits=20 continually a greenish, slimy, foeted cement, externally about the = orifices, by=20 constant accretions of which, the mounds are formed. The water in these = springs=20 was so hot, that we could not bear our fingers in it a moment, and a = dense=20 suffocating sulphurous vapour is constantly rising from them. In the = bases of=20 the mounds, there were also occasional cavities from which vapour or = boiling=20 water was continually emitted. Some of the mounds have long since = exploded, and=20 been left dry by the water. They were hollow, and filled with shelving = cavities=20 not unlike honey-comb. These singular springs are known to the Rocky = Mountain=20 hunters by the name of the Boiling Kettles, and are justly regarded as = great=20 curiosities. After spending a couple of hours very agreeably in = examining these=20 remarkable fountains, we returned to camp, well satisfied for the = fatigue of=20 thirty miles' travel, by the opportunity we had enjoyed of perusing one = of the=20 most interesting pages of the great book of nature. A fair day and a = beautiful=20 prospect, enhanced the pleasure and reward of our excursion.</P> <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ferris; Chapter 10 </FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C06483.EFE92020-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" <dullhawk@texomaonline.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Guns in Yellowstone Date: 13 Dec 2000 18:37:55 -0600 Actually guns are allowed in Yellowstone National Park according to the parks own brochure. It states that firearms may be taken or transported thru the park by unloading or disassembling the firearm so that it is inoperable and all ammo is carried in a seperate compartment from the firearm. YMOS "Watchum Possum" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 6:53 PM setting? > > One tip, though, I don't leave very expensive things in or around my tent > > when leaving for the day. My precious semi-custom flintlock goes with me. > > Louis, > I think she said she was going to Yellowstone. Perhaps the thought of > carrying a firearm into said park should be addressed. Good way to end up in > jail with a felony conviction hanging over your head and all your gear > confiscated. I don't know about other national parks, but guns ain't allowed > in Yellowstone. > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Muskrat news item Date: 14 Dec 2000 23:55:09 -0500 (EST) Detroit News [AP], Thurs. 12-14-2K, p.12D. BAY CITY - Muskrat Club members love the rodent. Especially fried. "The taste of (fried muskrat) meat is a lot like chicken, or the best roast beef you can eat," said club President Joe Perreault. The 30-year-old club goes thru between 300 and 400 muskrats a year, buying them thru area trappers and cookng them for meetings, held the first Sunday of every month. [jdm note: Muskrat season is currently in progress in all 3 Michigan zones thru Jan.31st.] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muskrat news item Date: 15 Dec 2000 09:49:07 EST --part1_b6.e8a5828.276b8963_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Louisiana, you will find it on some menus. It will be called marsh rabbit. Considered very fine eating. TrapRJoe --part1_b6.e8a5828.276b8963_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In Louisiana, you will find it on some menus. It will be called marsh <BR>rabbit. Considered very fine eating. <BR> <BR> TrapRJoe</FONT></HTML> --part1_b6.e8a5828.276b8963_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muskrat news item Date: 15 Dec 2000 09:07:29 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C06676.7396A340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You wrote: In Louisiana, you will find it on some menus. It will be called marsh=20 rabbit. Considered very fine eating.=20 TrapRJoe=20 There can be lots of entres on Louisana and East Texas menus that one is = prudent to ask about. In much of East Texas and, I presume in Louisana, there is a critter = called a swamp rabbit, which looks like a whopping big cottontail....big = as a coon. Ever eat one of those? I have been sneaking around in some spooky creek bottom or other and = flushed those things. They don't make a lot of noise but they will make = you jump if they flush close to your feet. If you don't shoot quickly = you will lose him in the close cover usually found in such places....the = kind of place you don't go in the warm months. Snakes. The worst is = the little known Texas hybrid, The Copperback Rattle-Moccasin. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C06676.7396A340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica>You wrote:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>In Louisiana, you will = find it on=20 some menus. It will be called marsh <BR>rabbit. Considered = very fine=20 eating.=20 <BR><BR> = ; = &= nbsp;TrapRJoe</FONT>=20 </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>There can be lots of entres on Louisana and East = Texas menus=20 that one is prudent to ask about.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>In much of East Texas and, I presume in = Louisana, there=20 is a critter called a swamp rabbit, which looks like a whopping big = cottontail....big as a coon. Ever eat one of those?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have been sneaking around in some spooky creek = bottom=20 or other and flushed those things. They don't make a lot of = noise but=20 they will make you jump if they flush close to your feet. If = you=20 don't shoot quickly you will lose him in the close cover usually found = in such=20 places....the kind of place you don't go in the warm months. = Snakes. =20 The worst is the little known Texas hybrid, The Copperback=20 Rattle-Moccasin.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Lanney Ratcliff</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C06676.7396A340-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Guernsey Frock. Date: 15 Dec 2000 15:32:17 For those of you interested in a Guernsey Frock, there is a company still manufacturing these garments, in the same fashion and name. I had an opportunity to view a frock in the possession of Clay Landry during the fur trade symposium made by this company. It came with information concerning the history and construction of this garment. Clay's son had purchased his Guernsey for him while visiting the island of the same name. Clay sent me a scan of the labels, the historical information, and the companies name. If you are interested, their web-site is, www.letricoteur.freeserve.co.uk Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Christmas card Date: 15 Dec 2000 13:21:47 -0500 First, Sorry for the cross posting.... For my Friends & Customers (who sometimes are one in the same) & even for you folks that can't stand the sight of me.... Go to http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/CHRISTMAS.html for a Christmas Card from Gwen, Me & Double Edge Forge... (cheaper than poastage<G>) D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 I Now Offer Gift Certificates ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: NADA. . . I'm Back ! ! ! Date: 15 Dec 2000 04:29:22 -0800 -----Original Message----- Hey Boys and Girls, like a bad dream, I just keep coming back. Only this time, I'm all bright, shiny, scrubbed clean, and DEBUGGED. LP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muskrat news item Date: 15 Dec 2000 16:29:54 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: December 15, 2000 9:07 AM >>You wrote: >>In Louisiana, you will find it on some menus. It will be called marsh >>rabbit. Considered very fine eating >>TrapRJoe I always thought that what they were refering to was nutria, not muskrat. >There can be lots of entres on Louisana and East Texas menus that one is >prudent to ask about. When I was down in San Antonio couple weeks back I tried the Cabrito (goat) as you had recomended. Not bad.. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muskrat news item Date: 15 Dec 2000 16:32:03 -0600 You wrote: When I was down in San Antonio couple weeks back I tried the Cabrito = (goat) as you had recomended. Not bad.. When I describe cabrito to others, particularly females, I usually say = "goat". In fact, traditionally it is BABY goat. Take my word, if you = tell a woman that, she never quite trusts you again....especally if you = talk about the tiny little ribs, etc. Grosses them right out. =20 TrapperJoe wrote that marsh rabbit is muskrat, not me. In Louisiana the = actual critter might vary, depending on which parrish you might be in at = the time, or which coonass the resturant bought from that day. Who = knows. I would eat it, one way or another. About all I really draw the = line on is possum. Lanney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" <icurapossum_hunter2@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muskrat news item Date: 15 Dec 2000 18:43:43 -0800 Lanny wrote: >There can be lots of entres on Louisana and East Texas menus that one is prudent to ask about. Why ask? Just eat up and enjoy! Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Susan Gilbert" <sgilbert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about camping with period gear in modern setting? Date: 17 Dec 2000 10:16:34 -0600 (CST) Thank you all for the excellent advice and suggestions for our trip to Yellowstone with our period gear. We feel much more confident about doing this and are planning accordingly. I will be contacting off list the folks who offered to share info about places to camp away from the mainstream. Again, thank you all and Happy Holidays! Sue Gilbert 6 Beaver Camp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Stewart <sardog1@att.net> Subject: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. Date: 18 Dec 2000 21:04:29 -0500 Hello group, As one of the list lurkers, I have gained lots of much appreciated info from all of you. Now, I ask a question that I've been wondering about for a few weeks now....Pound for pound, what is the warmest fur available. For years, I've slept under a buff hide at the bigger events, but would never carry it more than a few hundred yards. *bg* I had ideas at one time of sewing a nice beaver blanket for my wife for when its chilly but not freezing. Any thoughts or ideas? Now, we're not talking about whether or not wool is better for warmth( I would never carry more than a wool blanket on a trek) I'm talking specifically about furs...Thank you all in advance for any advice or information you may offer to share. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. Date: 17 Dec 2000 18:38:57 -0800 Mark, Warmth of a given insulating material is measured in "R" factor by the modern world. I'm sure you are aware of this. Here are a couple things to think about when trying to decide the answer to your question. When you consider the weight of a pelt or hair on hide like your buff robe, part of what you are weighing is the leather the fur/hair is attached to. In the case of buffalo robes, commercial robes are much heavier than Indian dressed or brain tanned robes. A couple of fellas in my acquaintance have procured brain tanned buffalo robes and find them to be "carryable" when compared to the normal commercial tanned robe. They characterize them as being VERY LIGHT WEIGHT. The warmth is still all there but the hide weighs much less. As to how to determine which fur/pelt/natural material is going to be the warmest per pound, your gona need to take out the weight of the leather first. From what little I know about insulation values of natural materials nothing beats goose down. Some where up there will be hair from members of the deer family with their hollow hair. Also way up there are the furs of some of the smaller animals such as chinchillas. Great Basin Indians made very warm robes from strips of rabbit pelts. But it all boils down to how much loft you can get in a material that will hold together. Wool on a sheep skin would be warmer than the blanket you could make from it since the blanket is compressed to some degree but the sheep hide still has that danged hide on it. Don't really have a definitive answer for you but thought I would throw my two bits out. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. Date: 17 Dec 2000 20:42:27 -0600 Marc That is a good question. Like you, my buffalo robe goes only where I = have help carrying the heavy rascal, although it IS warm. I manage to = be comfortable with two good wool blankets. To address your question, I = would think that the best fur is one that is lightweight enough to carry = comfortably, so a thick fur in relation to the thickness of the leather = sounds like the ticket. I bet a robe made of a lot of rabbit skins = would be a wonderful thing. Careful stitching would be necessary to = make it work but I would wager that it would be warm as a box full of = puppies. There are numerous references in the record of various Indians = using rabbit skin robes. However, you would run the risk of appearing = to be sleeping under Janis Joplin's old hippie jacket.=20 Anybody have any experience with rabbit skin robes? YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 8:04 PM > Hello group, > As one of the list lurkers, I have gained lots of much > appreciated info from all of you. Now, I ask a question that I've been > wondering about for a few weeks now....Pound for pound, what is the > warmest fur available. For years, I've slept under a buff hide at the > bigger events, but would never carry it more than a few hundred yards. > *bg* I had ideas at one time of sewing a nice beaver blanket for my > wife for when its chilly but not freezing. Any thoughts or ideas? Now, > we're not talking about whether or not wool is better for warmth( I > would never carry more than a wool blanket on a trek) I'm talking > specifically about furs...Thank you all in advance for any advice or > information you may offer to share. >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. Date: 17 Dec 2000 18:57:57 -0800 My mother in law made my wife and I a rabbitt skin blanket. She got a bunch of those Janis Joplin jackets at flea markets, etc.... took them apart and stitched together a queen sized blanket. She then backed it with some cozy flannel. This blanket is light, rolls up tight, and is warm....not as warm as my brain tanned buffalo, but a lot easier to pack and carry. I have an elk robe, but the hairs break of and itch....it is also heavy. I didn't know that commercial tanned buffalo (never had one) is heavier than brain tanned. My B.T. buff robe is'nt so heavy, as it is bulky. I slept with it and a Whitney blanket at the western camp in the sierras last nov.. It was down near 0 dg one night, and I was perfectly warm and cozy....It was my first real test of my buff. robe, I'm sure glad I have it. For this trip I also made a pair of centerseam mocs. from a sheepskin (wool side in) and used them to sleep in. I would recommend this also. If ya got's to go outside the bedroll , you got mocs on, and they are cozy. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. Date: 17 Dec 2000 22:27:39 -0800 I have experience with all the areas you mention. I have commercial and brian tanned buffalo robes. Will take the brain tan any day. Have two woven rabbit pelt robes or blankets. They are very warm. The Whitney's I will take over the Pendletons. The choice of all is, spread out the Whitney's and then crawl into a brain tanned buffalo robe with a lining of rabbit fur. The buffalo robe can get prickly and the rabbit is to soft. I am very comfortable in very cold weather. Linda Holley Ratcliff wrote: > Marc > That is a good question. Like you, my buffalo robe goes only where I have help carrying the heavy rascal, although it IS warm. I manage to be comfortable with two good wool blankets. To address your question, I would think that the best fur is one that is lightweight enough to carry comfortably, so a thick fur in relation to the thickness of the leather sounds like the ticket. I bet a robe made of a lot of rabbit skins would be a wonderful thing. Careful stitching would be necessary to make it work but I would wager that it would be warm as a box full of puppies. There are numerous references in the record of various Indians using rabbit skin robes. However, you would run the risk of appearing to be sleeping under Janis Joplin's old hippie jacket. > Anybody have any experience with rabbit skin robes? > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marc Stewart" <sardog1@att.net> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 8:04 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. > > > Hello group, > > As one of the list lurkers, I have gained lots of much > > appreciated info from all of you. Now, I ask a question that I've been > > wondering about for a few weeks now....Pound for pound, what is the > > warmest fur available. For years, I've slept under a buff hide at the > > bigger events, but would never carry it more than a few hundred yards. > > *bg* I had ideas at one time of sewing a nice beaver blanket for my > > wife for when its chilly but not freezing. Any thoughts or ideas? Now, > > we're not talking about whether or not wool is better for warmth( I > > would never carry more than a wool blanket on a trek) I'm talking > > specifically about furs...Thank you all in advance for any advice or > > information you may offer to share. > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. Date: 17 Dec 2000 22:52:58 -0500 Mark, Just a couple more bits of data, my BT buff robe weighs only 17 lbs and it's nearly 50 ft2, more than enough to make a very warm bed for all but the largest sleeper. It can be rolled, along with an oilcloth ground cover/shelter, into an easily managed carry for short distances, or could be configured with a couple of shoulder straps for longer distances. I used this robe at the same camp as hardtack (he's better insulated than me) and I was as warm as I care to be. Next time I'll pin the bottom shut so to keep my toes out of the snow. Although light when dry, the robe will become significantly heavier if it gets wet. Next time I will wrap it in a couple large garbage bags before packing it into my duffel bag for air travel since my stuff was left out on some baggage cart in a thunderstorm. I think the buff robe may be warmer than other furs/hides since it has so much loft which is where the insulating takes place. BTW, I've never met a rabbit pelt that didn't shed, but they are mighty warm and light Tom Roger Lahti wrote: > Mark, > > Warmth of a given insulating material is measured in "R" factor by the > modern world. I'm sure you are aware of this. Here are a couple things to > think about when trying to decide the answer to your question. > > When you consider the weight of a pelt or hair on hide like your buff robe, > part of what you are weighing is the leather the fur/hair is attached to. In > the case of buffalo robes, commercial robes are much heavier than Indian > dressed or brain tanned robes. A couple of fellas in my acquaintance have > procured brain tanned buffalo robes and find them to be "carryable" when > compared to the normal commercial tanned robe. They characterize them as > being VERY LIGHT WEIGHT. The warmth is still all there but the hide weighs > much less. > > As to how to determine which fur/pelt/natural material is going to be the > warmest per pound, your gona need to take out the weight of the leather > first. From what little I know about insulation values of natural materials > nothing beats goose down. Some where up there will be hair from members of > the deer family with their hollow hair. Also way up there are the furs of > some of the smaller animals such as chinchillas. Great Basin Indians made > very warm robes from strips of rabbit pelts. But it all boils down to how > much loft you can get in a material that will hold together. Wool on a sheep > skin would be warmer than the blanket you could make from it since the > blanket is compressed to some degree but the sheep hide still has that > danged hide on it. > > Don't really have a definitive answer for you but thought I would throw my > two bits out. > > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. Date: 18 Dec 2000 09:46:49 EST In a message dated 12/17/00 6:00:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, sardog1@att.net writes: << I had ideas at one time of sewing a nice beaver blanket for my wife for when its chilly but not freezing. Any thoughts or ideas? >> When I visited Johnson Hall in October, they had an intresting bed covering. It was made up of 9 beaver hides backed with a wool blanket. If any of you have visited Sir William's house, you know it was his extensive records that allowed them to restore the house authenticaly. This bed cover is documentable to arround 1760 - 1770. It was recreated for the Hall by a fellow reenactor. Granted, Sir William was very wealthy, so echonomicaly, I doubt we can doccument one like this in the Rockies, but they definitely had the main ingredients -- beaver hides & wool blankets. I do have a 2 hide beaver cape & can attest to it's warmth. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: fur for warmth Date: 18 Dec 2000 08:32:12 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C068CD.04F01080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no experience with fur specifically for warmth other than buffalo = but I can supply some observations and research. Wolf fur has been = often used for insulation in parkas in Alaska. B52 pilots used them on = their overflights of the Russian coast. Those old planes had little = heat on that route. The .45 cal. pistols would freeze into their = holsters rendering them useless if ever needed. The parkas were warm = and the trim of wolf fur allowed no build up of ice or snow. Works for = those critters. The warmest fur I have read about is Polar bear. Inuits wear suits of = polar bear hide when staying overnight on the ice. They reject the = niceties of down bags and quilted parkas relying only on this garment. = They wear their sleeping gear. Obviously, it isn't the fat on the bear = alone that allows it to swim in the frigid water of the Arctic. =20 You can bet that polar bear hide will be damn hard to come by in the = United States and wolf fur isn't much easier. Replicating the life = style of historical Mountain Men obviously isn't the point of the = question asked. But Natives that live or work on the land to the north = rely on the fur of the white bear. Larry Huber =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C068CD.04F01080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have no experience with fur = specifically for=20 warmth other than buffalo but I can supply some observations and = research. =20 Wolf fur has been often used for insulation in parkas in Alaska. = B52=20 pilots used them on their overflights of the Russian coast. Those = old=20 planes had little heat on that route. The .45 cal. pistols would = freeze=20 into their holsters rendering them useless if ever needed. The = parkas were=20 warm and the trim of wolf fur allowed no build up of ice or snow. Works = for=20 those critters.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The warmest fur I have read about is = Polar=20 bear. Inuits wear suits of polar bear hide when staying overnight = on the=20 ice. They reject the niceties of down bags and quilted parkas = relying only=20 on this garment. They wear their sleeping gear. Obviously, = it isn't=20 the fat on the bear alone that allows it to swim in the frigid water of = the=20 Arctic. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You can bet that polar bear hide will = be damn hard=20 to come by in the United States and wolf fur isn't much easier. =20 Replicating the life style of historical Mountain Men obviously isn't = the point=20 of the question asked. But Natives that live or work on the land = to the=20 north rely on the fur of the white bear.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Kunstler Script" size=3D6>Larry Huber</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <SPAN = id=3D__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C068CD.04F01080-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Warmth of fur et. al.. Date: 18 Dec 2000 16:22:53 EST "Anybody have any experience with rabbit skin robes? YMOS Lanney Ratcliff" The rabbit skin robes of the Great Basin Indians were not just rabbit hides stitched together but something quite different and more time-consuming. The base was long,twisted fiber cords set up on a loom as warp threads. The woof cords were wrapped with rabbit hides. Rabbit hides were cut into a large oval and then one long spiral cut was made into the oval to produce a long strip about 3/4" wide. These were spliced into even longer strips by putting a 5/8" slice near each end (the cut being paralel to the "long" way of the strip) forming an "eye". The end of one strip is slipped into the eye of the second, then the "new" strip is laced through the "unused" eye to complete the splice. Now these long strips were wrapped spirally around the woof cord, and these "fuzzy" cords are woven through the warp threads to form the blanket. This is similar to "Linsey-Woolsey" of Colonial fame, where linnen warp threads are comined with woolen woof. The poorer tribes such as Pahiutes and Goshiutes were users of such robes or blankets. I have a photo from around the 1860s of a Shoshone woman wearing such a robe. Years ago, before the Indians started insisting they be allowed to bury their ancient dead, there were some Fremont mummies in the Mormon museum on Temple Square in Salt Lake City. They have long-since been removed but I remember seeing such a blanket on one of the Fremonts. They dropped off the time-line at least 700 years ago, if you are looking for dating these robes. Making one would be quite a chore, but tanned hides can be picked up quite reasonably in leather wholsale supply houses, or a little bit more expensive in many rendezvous or festivals. I would recommend jute cord such as is used in gardening to tie up plants. Given a choice, go for the natural brown rather than the dyed green. When you are done your robe will be warm, light, and historically correct. Realizing how much of the region trapped in the 1805 - 1840 period was in Shoshone or Ute country, it is not improbable that rabbit blankets comforted assorted mountain men during their expeditions to the Rockies. Hope this helps. I'd like to hear from anyone who has success with this project. Richard James AMM Hvrno #79 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warmth of fur et. al.. Date: 18 Dec 2000 17:30:58 -0800 I have one of those blankets that I made in the late 1960s. Did a research paper on the technique which required me producing such a blanket. Lots of work and lots of fur flying. Wore a mask as I cut the rabbit pelts. Linda Holley SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > "Anybody have any experience with rabbit skin robes? > > YMOS > > Lanney Ratcliff" > > The rabbit skin robes of the Great Basin Indians were not just rabbit > hides stitched together but something quite different and more > time-consuming. The base was long,twisted fiber cords set up on a loom as > warp threads. The woof cords were wrapped with rabbit hides. Rabbit hides > were cut into a large oval and then one long spiral cut was made into the > oval to produce a long strip about 3/4" wide. These were spliced into even > longer strips by putting a 5/8" slice near each end (the cut being paralel > to the "long" way of the strip) forming an "eye". The end of one strip is > slipped into the eye of the second, then the "new" strip is laced through the > "unused" eye to complete the splice. Now these long strips were wrapped > spirally around the woof cord, and these "fuzzy" cords are woven through the > warp threads to form the blanket. This is similar to "Linsey-Woolsey" of > Colonial fame, where linnen warp threads are comined with woolen woof. > > The poorer tribes such as Pahiutes and Goshiutes were users of such robes > or blankets. I have a photo from around the 1860s of a Shoshone woman > wearing such a robe. Years ago, before the Indians started insisting they > be allowed to bury their ancient dead, there were some Fremont mummies in the > Mormon museum on Temple Square in Salt Lake City. They have long-since been > removed but I remember seeing such a blanket on one of the Fremonts. They > dropped off the time-line at least 700 years ago, if you are looking for > dating these robes. > > Making one would be quite a chore, but tanned hides can be picked up > quite reasonably in leather wholsale supply houses, or a little bit more > expensive in many rendezvous or festivals. I would recommend jute cord such > as is used in gardening to tie up plants. Given a choice, go for the natural > brown rather than the dyed green. When you are done your robe will be warm, > light, and historically correct. Realizing how much of the region trapped > in the 1805 - 1840 period was in Shoshone or Ute country, it is not > improbable that rabbit blankets comforted assorted mountain men during their > expeditions to the Rockies. > Hope this helps. I'd like to hear from anyone who has success with this > project. > > Richard James > AMM Hvrno #79 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. Date: 18 Dec 2000 18:14:46 -0700 tom roberts wrote: > Mark, > > I think the buff robe may be warmer than other furs/hides > since it has so much loft which is where the insulating takes > place. We had an AMM encampment over Thanksgiving weekend in South Park area of Colorado with temps in the low teens, most did pretty good with a couple of Witney's, the warmest where those with a buffalo robe and Witney's of coarse. You know it got cold when a week later your toes still felt numb and a few toe nails are light blue now. This seems to be the area most bothered in extreme cold - toes and fingers, my feet where covered and had two pair of hand knit socks, but still not enough. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fur for warmth Date: 18 Dec 2000 22:43:22 EST In a message dated 12/18/00 11:32:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, shootsprairie@hotmail.com writes: << Obviously, it isn't the fat on the bear alone that allows it to swim in the frigid water of the Arctic. >> You are right. The polar bear hairs are actually hollow (like that of other species) and transluscent....they actually project sunlight down to the animal's skins to warm it. That is probably not hte only warming property of the fur but is at least one. For what it is worth...but where can the average joe get polar bear fur? -C/Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. Date: 19 Dec 2000 07:57:21 -0700 Gentelmen, Well here is my two cents, I was lucky to be born a Scandinavian my feet stay so warm that I sleep with them uncovered for most of the winter and my cheeks and ears turn red when in the cold and I hardly ever cover my ears. Last year I wen't to the Bridger Birthday camp in March the wind never stoped and the night temp was below 0. My sleeping gear was made up from 4= 4lb wool blankets inter lapped and covered by a 12'x12' canvas tarp. Under the bed role was an oil cloth. I slept with only one pair of cotton socks.I use my capote like a robe and after I get into the bed I spread the capote over the top and cover my head with the hood of the capote. A buffalo robe would be warm but I take to much stuff as it is. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. >Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000, 6:14 PM > >tom roberts wrote: > >> Mark, >> >> I think the buff robe may be warmer than other furs/hides >> since it has so much loft which is where the insulating takes >> place. > >We had an AMM encampment over Thanksgiving weekend in South Park area of Colorado >with temps in the low teens, most did pretty good with a couple of Witney's, the >warmest where those with a buffalo robe and Witney's of coarse. > >You know it got cold when a week later your toes still felt numb and a few toe >nails are light blue now. This seems to be the area most bothered in extreme cold >- toes and fingers, my feet where covered and had two pair of hand knit socks, but >still not enough. > >Later, >Buck Conner >Research page: >http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ >Personal page: >http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ >____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: MtMan-List: Colorado Christmas Date: 19 Dec 2000 10:43:07 -0700 Ho the list, For those of you interested, there is an interesting story at this link http://www.denverpost.com/news/news1219j.htm I didn't send all the text, since it is a copyrighted piece. Merry Christmas to all, Lou Sickler Colorado Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: big timber, buckskin report Date: 17 Dec 2000 18:04:54 -0700 mr hays saw your listing on big timber thouht maybe some of the young blood might read. yes sir, i was one of the montana"s that were there and all the boulder river and big timber ronndies back 60's ? and 70,s. alot of the people that attended those first ronndies of the buckskin report later moved out here only to move else were later. at one time the flatehead lake area boAsted one of the areas with the most hard core black powder people(at that piont of time) a lot of us have gone under, so i guess this is why it jirks the ole heart when the new comers seem to make fun of us grey beards. But i do reminber at one of those NAPR rondies there was a group of us (older than dirt) that look at the hundred tipi s and said NOW THIS IS AS BIG AS IT GETS, FROM HERE ON IT STARTS TO SLIDE. I wish that some of those people were here to have seen the last national rondie at vipon park, mt. lordie lordie. i still have some of the first buckskin reports, and also rember when the ole man dave baird first came to montana. also i have seen posting about some one living in tipis. i wonder,at that time,how many families lived in tipies then in sef built cabins under primitive conditions. alot. do you remimber the time that we thought anyone belonged to a club was a company men because they had rules. a freetrapper or freeman was his own rule maker Now ,it seems, that your no one unless you can say you belong to a club with reg. number. (allwell and ole metis saying is nothing stays the same for ever) IT was nice to hear from someone that has been around for awhile. BUCKSINNING has evolved into something that is for the whole family and alot of different type people. i am so glade that i got to be apart of it,an still am. long live the buckskinning and rondie movement. pony rider (sintes 1968) i am trying to get a hold of joe walk a long _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. Date: 19 Dec 2000 19:14:31 -0700 <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><font ><blockquote><blockquote><TT><BR> ---- Begin Original Message ----<BR> From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net><BR> I was lucky to be born a Scandinavian my feet<BR> stay so warm that I sleep with them uncovered for <BR> most of the winter and my cheeks and ears turn <BR> red when in the cold and I hardly ever cover my <BR> ears.........<BR> <BR> Ole # 718<BR> ----------<BR> >From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net><BR> I think the buff robe may be warmer than other <BR> furs/hides since it has so much loft which is <BR> where the insulating takes place.<BR> ><BR> >We had an AMM encampment over Thanksgiving <BR> weekend in South Park area of Colorado<BR> >with temps in the low teens, most did pretty <BR> good with a couple of Witney's, the warmest where <BR> those with a buffalo robe and Witney's of coarse.<BR> <BR> >Later,<BR> >Buck Conner<BR> ---- End Original Message ----<BR> <BR> Ole,<BR> <BR> I've had the same results in South Park, it's one <BR> of those high places where the wind never stops <BR> and the temperatures really drop after dark. Numb <BR> toes and fingers are the norm in the winter <BR> months, don't worry Buck the "light blue" toe <BR> nails will go away in time (with the toes when <BR> they fall off). Dennis will agree, same thing <BR> happens when he gets to close with his hammer, <BR> his skin turns a "light blue" after a few days.<BR> <BR> <BR> </TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Later, <BR> Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR> Research & Documentation for: <BR> _____________________________________________ <BR> HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT <BR> ________________________________________HRD__ <BR> Visit these period camp sites at: <BR> http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/<BR> http://pages.about.com/conner1/<BR> http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR> _____________________________________________ </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Firearm Question Date: 19 Dec 2000 21:57:29 -0700 Anyone ever heard of a "Texas Tyler" Rifle or shotgun? A friend asked and I told him I know some fellers that might help. Thanks "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm Question Date: 20 Dec 2000 15:58:46 -0800 Anyone ever heard of a "Texas Tyler" Rifle or shotgun? A friend asked and I told him I know some fellers that might help. Thanks "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 Todd, Never heard of a "Texas Tyler" rifle or shotgun. Perhaps your buddy could provide a little more info ? Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm Question Date: 20 Dec 2000 18:35:24 -0700 Lar, Wish he could have given more info, but he didn't know anymore. He mentioned he was also selling an "Original Harpers Ferry," that got my attention. Turned out to be a 1845 rifle, fairly poor condition. I wasn't interested. He asked me what it was worth, I couldn't even venture a guess. Todd Glover ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 20 Dec 2000 21:34:41 EST Ho List, I was reading a book the other day that was written for juveniles about the Fur trade era. It seemed pretty historically accurate on most points. When describing the backgrounds of trappers and folks one would find at a rendezvous it mentioned there were even some people from the Sandwich Islands. Does this seem correct? Has anyone out there heard of this? If so, what was the route/means by which these people made it into the Rockies? "Keep your nose to the wind and your eyes on the skyline" =C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm Question Date: 20 Dec 2000 22:03:45 EST In a message dated 12/20/00 5:02:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, yrrw@airmail.net writes: << Anyone ever heard of a "Texas Tyler" Rifle or shotgun? >> Could this be the older cousin of the famed introductory firearm so many of us cut our teeth on...the "Red Rider"?>VBG> -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 20 Dec 2000 20:46:27 -0700 Sometimes refered to as "Owyhees" or "Kanakas," there indeed were native Sandwich Islanders in the mountains. They were mostly attached to HBC brigades led by McKenzie or Ross or Ogden. How did they get there? Various paths, aboard Astorian ships and later British traders supplying the Pacific coast is one of the best explanations. Hope no one starts wearing grass skirts and flowery shirts and leis around the rendezvous! Teton #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin <Victor.Barkin@NAU.EDU> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 20 Dec 2000 20:59:18 -0700 George Fredrick Ruxton mentions Sandwich Islanders in, I believe, 1846 in South Park. Todd is right, they started out as being attached to the British, but I've never seen any account of a singular figure or biography of any of them in particular. I seem to remember reading they were brought over from the Islands as engage's and some of them worked out of Ft Vancouver prior to 1840. B. Dawg >Ho List, > >I was reading a book the other day that was written for juveniles about the >Fur trade era. It seemed pretty historically accurate on most points. When >describing the backgrounds of trappers and folks one would find at a >rendezvous it mentioned there were even some people from the Sandwich >Islands. Does this seem correct? Has anyone out there heard of this? If >so, what was the route/means by which these people made it into the Rockies? > >"Keep your nose to the wind and your eyes on the skyline" > >=C.Kent > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html -- Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin Powderhorn Clan newsletter Editor AMM #1537 Three Rivers Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Priming the Pan Date: 20 Dec 2000 22:58:52 -0500 (EST) Ho the List, I got my first Flintlock a little while ago and am going out to shoot it for the first time at a friends farm this New Years and I suddenly realized I have a big question as I've only previously shot Cap Locks, what I was wondering is do you Prime the Pan with regular old Black Powder or is there a finer grade "Priming Powder" ? I know that must be and easy one but the few friends I have who shoot Black Powder use Cap Locks and didn't know either! Also if so does any one know and online source? Thanks in advance!!! Y.M.O.S, M.A. Smith "In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 20 Dec 2000 23:07:22 EST In a message dated 12/20/0 07:35:28 PM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: "it mentioned there were even some people from the Sandwich Islands. " Teton's explanation is correct. They hired on on the sailing ships then for a better wage - or just to get ashore - hired on on the west coast with HBC. If you look on a map around the southwest corner of Idaho (Fort Boise country) you will see a river, a park and a number of geographical sites named the phonetic Owyhee. Later, in 1868, when the government was treating with the Sioux at Fort Laramie the interpreter was half Owyhee and half Indian and half drunk. He told the whites what they wanted to hear and the Lakota what they wanted to hear so both sides came away happy. The Lakota believing being incorrect lead to the major shoot-'um-ups we read about in the years that followed. I just looked for a book (journal) I have somewhere that tells about the early Owyhees. Can't find it but its about an Astorian that stayed on at the Fort (Astoria) when the British took it over. He also mentions the Iroquois that came out with the HBC bunch and lingered on in the west - wives, kids, et.al. It was largely these Iroquois that were with Peter Skeen Ogden when he had that run-in with Johnston Gardner (May 1825 - about 8 miles east of here) who defected and came over to the Americans with their plews. R. James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Priming the Pan Date: 20 Dec 2000 22:09:29 -0600 , > I got my first Flintlock a little while ago and am > going out to shoot it for the first time at a friends farm this New > Years and I suddenly realized I have a big question as I've only > previously shot Cap Locks, what I was wondering is do you Prime the Pan > with regular old Black Powder or is there a finer grade "Priming Powder" > ? I know that must be and easy one but the few friends I have who shoot > Black Powder use Cap Locks and didn't know either! Also if so does any > one know and online > source? Thanks in advance!!! > Yes FFFFG is commonly used for priming, but for hunting or trekking it's more trouble than it's worth to mess with a priming horn. I usually prime with FFFG, right out of the main horn, and often with FFG when shooting the King's Musket. If you MUST use priming powder, you can get by pretty well by placing a SMALL amount of powder, just enough to cover the bottom of a 35 MM film canister and crush it with a wooden dowel. I bought a pound of priming powder about ten years ago and have yet to use 1/4 of it. A waste of money, if you ask me. BTW, ya gotta use real black powder in flintguns. Pyrodex won't work. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary A. Bell" <microptics@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 20 Dec 2000 20:06:19 -0800 Trade ships rounding the horn from the east coast made course for the Sandwich Islands (aka Hawaii), and would there reprovision. They next set course for the Northwest to trade for furs with the coastal tribes, and thence to China to exchange the furs for spices and other trade goods. Journeys were long and hard on the crews, and they commonly recruited new crew members wherever they touched land. Sometimes the recruitment was forced (can you say enslavement). The Kanakas frequently lost their taste for sea going life and the folks who lived it, and left the ships when they hit the northwest. Viola. Lewis and Clark hoped to meet a yankee trade captain when they reached the Pacific, and were keenly disappointed to not find one. They had made copies of their logbooks and parceled out specimens to send back by sea with a volunteer. They did find native tribes wearing sailor's clothing who spoke some English words, "powder" "shot" and "damn rascal" I have an interesting book recounting the true story of an American sailor who came to be a slave to a Nootka chief on Vancouver Island for three years, who escaped and made his way back to the east coast, and gained considerable literary fame selling his story. I will dig the title and such out of the garage if anyone is interested. Heron Todd Glover wrote: > Sometimes refered to as "Owyhees" or "Kanakas," there indeed were native > Sandwich Islanders in the mountains. They were mostly attached to HBC > brigades led by McKenzie or Ross or Ogden. How did they get there? > Various paths, aboard Astorian ships and later British traders supplying > the Pacific coast is one of the best explanations. > Hope no one starts wearing grass skirts and flowery shirts and leis > around the rendezvous! > > Teton > #1784 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 20 Dec 2000 23:14:20 EST Pick up a copy of "Kanaka - The Untold Storu of Hawaiian Pioneers in British Columbia and the Pacific Northwest," by Tom Koppel (Whitecap Books, Vancouver/Toronto, 1995) It has a lot of info regarding Sandwich Islanders involvement in the fur trade. Jim Hardee, AMM 1676 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 20 Dec 2000 23:16:11 EST In a message dated 12/20/00 10:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, tetontodd@juno.com writes: << wearing grass skirts >> pretty comfy...but heard they are killer to braintan!!!! <VBG> -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 20 Dec 2000 23:22:04 EST In a message dated 12/20/00 11:13:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, microptics@earthlink.net writes: << I will dig the title and such out of the garage if anyone is interested. >> Am very interested...Thanks. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step toward restoring Date: 20 Dec 2000 23:59:04 -0500 (EST) USA Today, Wed. 12-20-2000, p.7A. Tennessee: LaFollette - The first 50 elk of a planned release of 400 were released in eastern Tennessee. The reintroduction comes more than a century after elk disappeared from the Appalachian Mountains because of overhunting and disappearing habitat. Federal officials plan to release 25 elk next spring in the Smoky Mountains. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Priming the Pan Date: 21 Dec 2000 00:09:35 EST --part1_e6.f143a39.2772ea8f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 4F powder is the finest and prefered for priming powder. If'n you don't have access to it yore regular powder will work, just a little slower ignition Turtle --part1_e6.f143a39.2772ea8f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>4F powder is the finest and prefered for priming powder. If'n you don't have <BR>access to it yore regular powder will work, just a little slower ignition <BR> <BR>Turtle <BR></FONT></HTML> --part1_e6.f143a39.2772ea8f_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step toward restoring Date: 21 Dec 2000 00:42:27 -0500 My Father-In-Law read in USA Today a few days ago, where an Elk as killed this past season in Virginia! Seems they released several in the mountains to try and bring them back there too.... Problem is that they don't have an Elk season there, and the guy who shot it was scared spitless. Seems it had an ear tag on it. He finally called DNR adn they told him basically that an Elk was a relative of a deer, so they would count it as a deer, but be sure to tag it... Will wonders never cease... Ad Miller Alderson WEST Virginia ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step toward restoring Date: 20 Dec 2000 22:09:37 -0800 Wonder if I can get away with that up here in WA. Course first I got to hit an elk! Tried a couple times this fall and failed miserably. <G> I'd heard that they have released elk back east in a couple places trying to reintroduce them. Doing the same with Grizz out west. WA and Idaho have gotten plants of grizz. Wolves too. Pretty soon it won't be safe to go in the woods no more. <G> Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step toward restoring Date: 20 Dec 2000 23:54:30 -0800 There were some Tule Elk released near here (central coast of calif) about 13 yrs +/- ago. The herd is doing well. Within the first month , or so, of the release some illegal alien poached one. He was caught and sent to prison. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Priming the Pan Date: 21 Dec 2000 02:18:38 -0600 I would disagree that granulation has much to do with speed of ignition. I've used only 2F in my musket for many years with good fast results. If the lock sparks well and throws the spark to the center of the pan, and the flash hole is properly positioned so that a sparse trickle of powder in the bottom of the pan allows the "flash" to rise over the face of the hole: consistently speedy ignition is the result. A too weak lock spring can make powder considerations moot. A soft frizzen that won't spark, or poor lock, or lock to flash hole geometry; can make shooting impossible. Burying the flash hole in too much powder is the #1 most common cause of hang fires and slow ignition. If over full the powder must burn down to the flash hole and sometimes seals the hole with carbon before ignition occurs. That slows things down. John... Remember August 1, 1794!!! Whence first began imposition of tyranny by the elitist majority. The big mistake was in not shipping Alexander Hamilton and all the other unrepentant Tory sympathizers back to England forever. Anglophiles are their latest mutation and undeserving of sympathy or credibility. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Maryln Adams" <MIA3WOLVES@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step to Date: 21 Dec 2000 06:53:31 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C06B1A.BB2A30C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If anyone is interested in Elk Hunting (legally) in the East, Kentucky = is planning a lottery for 10 Elk next year. It will cost the hunters $10= per chance and 10 chances will be drawn. The lottery is open to everyon= e, regardless of residency. The hunt will be near Pikeville (south east = KY) They are using this as a method to raise capital to buy more elk to = release. Red Hawk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 1:09 AM Wonder if I can get away with that up here in WA. Course first I got to h= it an elk! Tried a couple times this fall and failed miserably. <G> I'd hear= d that they have released elk back east in a couple places trying to reintroduce them. Doing the same with Grizz out west. WA and Idaho have gotten plants of grizz. Wolves too. Pretty soon it won't be safe to go in the woods no more. <G> Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<b= r clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href=3D"ht= tp://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p> ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C06B1A.BB2A30C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>If anyone is &= nbsp;interested in Elk Hunting (legally) in the East, Kentucky is p= lanning a lottery for 10 Elk next year. It will cost the hunters $1= 0 per chance and 10 chances will be drawn. The lottery is open to e= veryone, regardless of residency. The hunt will be near Pikeville (= south east KY) They are using this as a method to raise capital to = buy more elk to release.</DIV> <DIV>Red Hawk</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> = <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5p= x; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> = <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV s= tyle=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; FONT-COLOR: black"><B>From= :</B> Roger Lahti</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B>= Thursday, December 21, 2000 1:09 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt = Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"F= ONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountai= n Frontier Period - a step to</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>Wonder if I can get aw= ay with that up here in WA. Course first I got to hit<BR>an elk! Tried a = couple times this fall and failed miserably. <G> I'd heard<BR>that = they have released elk back east in a couple places trying to<BR>reintrod= uce them. Doing the same with Grizz out west. WA and Idaho have<BR>gotten= plants of grizz. Wolves too. Pretty soon it won't be safe to go in<BR>th= e woods no more. <G><BR><BR>Capt. Lahti'<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----------= -----------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/= maillist.html<BR><BR> <DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><DIV><BR><br = clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href=3D"http= ://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p></DIV> ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C06B1A.BB2A30C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken Jones" <kenandsusan@triton.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step to Date: 21 Dec 2000 08:06:30 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C06B24.ED483160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello - I am from Michigan and our Elk season just ended Dec. 12. We also have = the lottery system. I have been applying for 13 years and this year I = was chosen to hunt. It cost $4.00 to apply and $100.00 for the license = if picked in the lottery. We have a herd of just over 1000 Elk. This = year they gave out about 350 permits. Only residents are allowed to = apply and there were over 40,000 applicants this year. I was told the = odds of getting drawn was once every 2 1/2 lifetimes. I guess I should = have bought a lotto ticket the same day I applied. Anyways I got my Elk = on the fourth day of the season. The hunt was the best part. I found = tracks and started trailing. All together I had the opportunity to = shoot at 6 bulls but my tag was only good for a cow. On the third day I = got into the herd of cows and trailed them for three hours. I could = have taken a few shots but didn't really have a perfect shot so I passed = that day. Hunting hours closed at 5:00 p.m. so I put them up in some = thick cover for the night. I went back the next morning and trailed = them most of the day. All together I covered over 5 miles that day. = Along the way I could have shot about 4 times. I wanted the perfect = shot and finally my cow offered it. I had already made up my mind that = I had already enjoyed the best part of the hunt - trailing them. I had = come to the conclusion that if I didn't fill my tag during the season = that it was ok by me. For me the best part was stalking them. Honestly = it was even kind of fun turning down shots. The Elk would walk away = unhurried and I knew that I would come across them again. =20 Well I could go on for hours about this experience. Anyways I got = plenty of excellent meat and a beautiful hide that I will be tanning = shortly. I would recommend for everybody to apply. These are awesome = animals to hunt and you wont be disappointed. I know I certainly = wasn't. =20 Ken=20 Michigan=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 6:53 AM to If anyone is interested in Elk Hunting (legally) in the East, Kentucky = is planning a lottery for 10 Elk next year. It will cost the hunters = $10 per chance and 10 chances will be drawn. The lottery is open to = everyone, regardless of residency. The hunt will be near Pikeville = (south east KY) They are using this as a method to raise capital to buy = more elk to release. Red Hawk =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Lahti Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 1:09 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step = to Wonder if I can get away with that up here in WA. Course first I got = to hit an elk! Tried a couple times this fall and failed miserably. <G> I'd = heard that they have released elk back east in a couple places trying to reintroduce them. Doing the same with Grizz out west. WA and Idaho = have gotten plants of grizz. Wolves too. Pretty soon it won't be safe to go = in the woods no more. <G> Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------- Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C06B24.ED483160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt = verdana; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"=20 bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Hello -</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I am from Michigan and our Elk season just ended = Dec.=20 12. We also have the lottery system. I have been applying = for 13=20 years and this year I was chosen to hunt. It cost $4.00 to apply = and=20 $100.00 for the license if picked in the lottery. We have a = herd of=20 just over 1000 Elk. This year they gave out about 350 = permits. Only=20 residents are allowed to apply and there were over = 40,000 applicants this=20 year. I was told the odds of getting drawn was once every 2 1/2=20 lifetimes. I guess I should have bought a lotto ticket the same = day I=20 applied. Anyways I got my Elk on the fourth day of the = season. The=20 hunt was the best part. I found tracks and started trailing. = All=20 together I had the opportunity to shoot at 6 bulls but my tag was only = good for=20 a cow. On the third day I got into the herd of cows and trailed = them for=20 three hours. I could have taken a few shots but didn't really have = a=20 perfect shot so I passed that day. Hunting hours closed at 5:00 = p.m. so I=20 put them up in some thick cover for the night. I went back the=20 next morning and trailed them most of the day. All together I = covered=20 over 5 miles that day. Along the way I could have shot about 4=20 times. I wanted the perfect shot and finally my cow offered = it. I=20 had already made up my mind that I had already enjoyed the best part of = the hunt=20 - trailing them. I had come to the conclusion that if I didn't = fill my tag=20 during the season that it was ok by me. For me the best part was = stalking=20 them. Honestly it was even kind of fun turning down shots. = The Elk=20 would walk away unhurried and I knew that I would come across them = again. =20 </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Well I could go on for hours about this = experience. =20 Anyways I got plenty of excellent meat and a beautiful hide = that I=20 will be tanning shortly. I would recommend for everybody to=20 apply. These are awesome animals to hunt and you wont be=20 disappointed. I know I certainly wasn't. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Ken </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Michigan</FONT> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20 <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20 title=3DMIA3WOLVES@msn.com href=3D"mailto:MIA3WOLVES@msn.com">Maryln = Adams</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 21, 2000 6:53 AM</DIV> <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier = Period - a=20 step to</DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>If anyone is interested in Elk Hunting (legally) in the = East,=20 Kentucky is planning a lottery for 10 Elk next year. It will cost = the=20 hunters $10 per chance and 10 chances will be drawn. The lottery = is open=20 to everyone, regardless of residency. The hunt will be near = Pikeville=20 (south east KY) They are using this as a method to raise capital = to buy=20 more elk to release.</DIV> <DIV>Red Hawk</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; FONT-COLOR: = black"><B>From:</B> Roger=20 Lahti</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December = 21, 2000=20 1:09 AM</DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"FONT: 10pt = Arial"><B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: = Appalachian=20 Mountain Frontier Period - a step to</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>Wonder if I can get away with that up here in WA. = Course first=20 I got to hit<BR>an elk! Tried a couple times this fall and failed = miserably.=20 <G> I'd heard<BR>that they have released elk back east in a = couple=20 places trying to<BR>reintroduce them. Doing the same with Grizz out = west. WA=20 and Idaho have<BR>gotten plants of grizz. Wolves too. Pretty soon it = won't be=20 safe to go in<BR>the woods no more. <G><BR><BR>Capt.=20 Lahti'<BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR><BR> <DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR><BR clear=3Dall> <HR> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <A=20 href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR> <P></P></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C06B24.ED483160-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Priming the Pan Date: 21 Dec 2000 06:25:03 -0700 Sir, I have 4 Flintlocks and it is all that I shoot, John Kramer is right. I would add, that you put priming powder at the end furthest from the touch hole so that the hole has no powder in it, the flash of the powder is what sets the charge off. Check the alignment of the pan with the touch hole, the touch hole should be just above the level of the pan. Try to find someone that shoots flintlock that can help you so that you don't regress back to cap lock. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Priming the Pan >Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000, 8:58 PM > >Ho the List, > I got my first Flintlock a little while ago and am >going out to shoot it for the first time at a friends farm this New >Years and I suddenly realized I have a big question as I've only >previously shot Cap Locks, what I was wondering is do you Prime the Pan >with regular old Black Powder or is there a finer grade "Priming Powder" >? I know that must be and easy one but the few friends I have who shoot >Black Powder use Cap Locks and didn't know either! Also if so does any >one know and online >source? Thanks in advance!!! > > Y.M.O.S, > M.A. Smith > >"In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau > >http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> Subject: MtMan-List: warmth of fur..lb. for lb. Date: 21 Dec 2000 07:44:24 -0600 Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anyone address the time-of-year issue. Back a long time ago, when I used to hunt rabbits regularly for the pot, I used to bark-tan winter rabbit hides for muffs and mitts. That was when I used to live outside for long periods and I found winter rabbits, if well fed and healthy, produced a hide so warm that I never felt cold through them. Of course I was a lot younger then!!! It is important to know when a hide was taken. A February hide will be a whole lot warmer than a November hide. Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step toward Date: 21 Dec 2000 08:17:07 -0600 A kid from southern Wisconsin hunting up north where they re-introduced Elk shot about a 400 pound doe. Thought it was a big white-tail! (I guess), at least he did report it. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step to Date: 21 Dec 2000 09:19:11 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C06B2F.142248C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Back in 1976 or 77, when there were no Elk in Michigan, let alone a = season on them, a friend and I were up at the Saulk Locks having a cup = of coffee and talkingto a DNR agent that was a friend of his. All of a = sudden, the front door to the cafe burst open and this guy runs in... "I = GOT MY DEER!!! Biggest deer I've ever seen!!!"... The DNR agent gets up, = shows his badge, and says, "Let's take a look at this deer..." (thinking = maybe the city slicker had shot a cow). He goes out to the guys car... = a brand new BIG Chev. Blazer, and a new 24' travel trailer, and sure = enough... there is an ELK in the top rack of the car. Only thing the DNR = guy figured was that it either came across the ice, swam a narrow part = of the Lock, etc... but this slicker dinna know the difference between = an Elk and a Deer. Needless to say, he confiscated the Elk, his new 300 = Magnum rifle, his car, trailer, etc... and wrote him a rather hefty = citation for killing an Elk with no season. Glad to see thatthey re = introducing Elk back into the East. Va and W Va are going to be doing = it too... along with TN, KY, and several others... Ad Miller ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C06B2F.142248C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt = verdana; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"=20 bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Back in 1976 or 77, when there were no Elk in = Michigan,=20 let alone a season on them, a friend and I were up at the Saulk Locks = having a=20 cup of coffee and talkingto a DNR agent that was a friend of his. All of = a=20 sudden, the front door to the cafe burst open and this guy runs in... "I = GOT MY=20 DEER!!! Biggest deer I've ever seen!!!"... The DNR agent gets up, shows = his=20 badge, and says, "Let's take a look at this deer..." (thinking maybe the = city=20 slicker had shot a cow). He goes out to the guys car... a brand = new BIG=20 Chev. Blazer, and a new 24' travel trailer, and sure enough... there is = an ELK=20 in the top rack of the car. Only thing the DNR guy figured was that it = either=20 came across the ice, swam a narrow part of the Lock, etc... but this = slicker=20 dinna know the difference between an Elk and a Deer. Needless to say, he = confiscated the Elk, his new 300 Magnum rifle, his car, trailer, etc... = and=20 wrote him a rather hefty citation for killing an Elk with no = season. Glad=20 to see thatthey re introducing Elk back into the East. Va and W Va = are=20 going to be doing it too... along with TN, KY, and several=20 others...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Ad Miller</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C06B2F.142248C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: This years hunting Date: 21 Dec 2000 09:41:11 EST In a message dated 12/21/00 8:04:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenandsusan@triton.net writes: << I had already made up my mind that I had already enjoyed the best part of the hunt - trailing them. I had come to the conclusion that if I didn't fill my tag during the season that it was ok by me. >> I feel the same way. Meat on the table is great but the process is what makes it worth while. I took my new Tulle hunting for the first time this year. Spent all season walking the country with the deer always somewhere else (the farm I hunt got harvested early so deer moved on) had several chances to take an 'iffy' shot and passed on them. Last day of black powder season 15 minutes or so before legal sunset I said to my self great season, had fun, time to stroll home. Not figuring on getting a deer at all at that point I took a short cut across an open field rather than thru and around the woods. Strolling along relaxed when up pops a button buck, well the years of shooting a flinter made sure my Tulle now has made meat. Not a lot but it is tender and the season ended on a high note. But as you said the best part of the season was the hunt itself, sunrise and sunset on a cold snow covered morning are magic. Red fox passing by without paying any attention to you as they hunt what more can you ask for. Those of us in this small community of history buffs share a world that we can only thank the stars for the chance to live. May you all have a safe, healthy and fulfilling new year. YHOS C. T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Slow or bad ignition of Flintlocks Date: 21 Dec 2000 09:41:20 EST One thing that is often missed in the training of people on flintlocks is flint selection. I went for several years with a really fine gun that occasionally gave me head aches due to poor ignition. After eliminating the common problems of over priming the pan and not using a pick to insure a clear touch hole etc. a gun builder friend took a look at my gun on the range one day. He quickly told me WRONG flint. If the flint is too long (touching the frizzen when at half cock) it may spark to high and not direct the spark into the pan. This is also a problem, I have been told, with some poorly designed locks. If the flint is too short it does not scrape off enough spark on its way to the pan. I now leave about an eigth of an inch between my flint and the frizzen when at half cock and have little trouble. The position can vary due to the lock design. Another thing that can happen is that a flint that is too wide may not travel the full arch to the pan when it is fired. This can happen because the flint is interfered with on its way down by striking stock or barrel as it is too wide for the lock. And yet another cause of poor/failed ignition is over tightening of the bolts that attach the lock to the stock. You will sometimes find (especially on older guns which have been cleaned and reassembled a lot) that the bolt that goes thru the stock and into the lock plate at the rear end will be protruding thru the lock plate just a little. And on many locks this is right in line with the arch/travel of the cock. If it protrudes enough it can stop the lock dead in its travel but often it just slows it, sort of like a weak main spring, resulting in poor ignition. A little work with a file can fix this problem. But once you master the flint lock you never go back to cap guns. I love our winter shoots where caps fail due to the extreme cold all the time and the rocks just keep on sparking. Got to love the rocks. YHOS C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Priming the Pan Date: 21 Dec 2000 09:50:39 -0500 (EST) Thanks for all the great advice guys! I'll let ya all know how it went come the New Year!! Thanks again!!! I Remain, M.A Smith "In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step toward restoring Date: 21 Dec 2000 10:30:24 EST In a message dated 12/21/0 07:17:50 AM, jal@cray.com writes: <<where they re-introduced Elk shot about a 400 pound doe. >> Jim - they are called "cows" - not beef cows, just elk cows. RJ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 21 Dec 2000 09:16:37 -0700 And for those of us who like to read and explore the outer reaches of the fur trade (and all the individuals involved in it, in any shape and form), one area that might be over looked is the contact the missionaries, who went to our rendezvous had with these people. "The Mountains We Have Crossed" (diaries and letters of the Oregon Mission) have alot of information of the missions set up there in Hawaii. The success of these (nothing like what the ones who settled in Oregon had, those in Hawaii grew fast and big, so some ended up going there and on to successful- if you want to call it that, ministries) and how some of these people became servants to them. Seems a fair amount of travel went on between the northwest and the islands. Which usually took 20 - 25 days on the water, one way. The book is a great resource for back ground information and insights on the ladies who came to the rendezvous. mike. HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Ho List, > > I was reading a book the other day that was written for juveniles about the > Fur trade era. It seemed pretty historically accurate on most points. When > describing the backgrounds of trappers and folks one would find at a > rendezvous it mentioned there were even some people from the Sandwich > Islands. Does this seem correct? Has anyone out there heard of this? If > so, what was the route/means by which these people made it into the Rockies? > > "Keep your nose to the wind and your eyes on the skyline" > > =C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Virden High School <neigh@marsaglia.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Hallmark x-mas tree ornament!! Date: 21 Dec 2000 10:42:18 -0600 Merry Christmas to everryone. Has anyone seen the Hallmark, Mtn Man Christmas tree ornament, it is copper color and he is on a horse . It is so cool. Donnie Jim Lindberg wrote: > A kid from southern Wisconsin hunting up north where they re-introduced > Elk shot about a 400 pound doe. Thought it was a big white-tail! (I > guess), at least he did report it. > > Jim > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jody & Scott" <sjsdm@conpoint.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Elk hunting in Nebraska Date: 21 Dec 2000 12:26:49 -0600 We have an elk lottery here too, unlimited, not just for residents. From what I hear the G&P take you out in their truck and say "Shoot that one." Kinda like shooting cows in a feedlot. It does raise a lot of money for them tho. Scott C sjsdm@conpoint.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm Question Date: 21 Dec 2000 14:46:22 -0700 larry pendleton wrote: > Anyone ever heard of a "Texas Tyler" Rifle or shotgun? A friend asked and > I told him I know some fellers that might help. > Thanks > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > #1784 > > Todd, > Never heard of a "Texas Tyler" rifle or shotgun. Perhaps your buddy could > provide a little more info ? > > Pendleton > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Have seen mid to late 1800 "Tyler" shotguns at gun shows, was told they where like "Tryon" and a few others in later years that assembled parts made in mass quantities for the hardware, general store chains like Sears, Wards, etc. The one's I looked at where of average workmanship and parts, nothing fancy, rolled engraving, etc. Probably available after the Civil War like so many of the farm guns in America. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Priming the Pan Date: 21 Dec 2000 15:11:32 -0700 John Kramer wrote: > I would disagree that granulation has much to do with speed of > ignition. I've used only 2F in my musket for many years with good fast > results. > > If the lock sparks well and throws the spark to the center of the pan, and > the flash hole is properly positioned so that a sparse trickle of powder in > the bottom of the pan allows the "flash" to rise over the face of the > hole: consistently speedy ignition is the result............. Again my old friend has hit it dead center, thank you John. I have shot only flint guns - pistols,shotguns,fowlers,rifles for 25 plus years, the last 15 of those years has been with using the same powder for loading and priming. Look at Grant's book on pouches and horns, probably half or more show one powder container, the typical powder horn. Granted some of the priming horns may have been misplaced, but several of the shown "priming" horn descriptions are not correct to a few that have handled them - on closer exam several where found to hold salt , not powder. On close exam of old guns (ones in good cond.) look at the size of the vent hole - much larger than what we normally use. When you consider the amount of items one carries on themselves to keep their weapon working and operating in a proper manner, carrying one horn makes a lot of good sense. I have found that 2F works as well as any of the powders for priming with the vent hole enlarged, like John has mentioned. I have been using 3F for loading and priming for several years (reduced charges from 2F load) on the pistols, shotguns, fowlers and rifles - the reason is because of our location here in the Stoney Mountains (Rockies) is seems easier to clean. Yet when at Ft. DeChartre ILL for some reason, maybe the moisture 2F seems to clean up easier, I know same charges, sight settings, etc. change from CO to ILL when shooting at targets of the same distance - with same point of aim, same distance, same target, my guns shoot low in ILL, from their CO setting. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Firearm Question] Date: 21 Dec 2000 15:26:35 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D7E4443877FDA1DEE5F09E97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------D7E4443877FDA1DEE5F09E97 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <3A427A2D.F3D43397@qwest.net> Organization: ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {U S WEST.net} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003401c06ae0$cedecb60$801588cf@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit larry pendleton wrote: > Anyone ever heard of a "Texas Tyler" Rifle or shotgun? A friend asked and > I told him I know some fellers that might help. > Thanks > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > #1784 > > Todd, > Never heard of a "Texas Tyler" rifle or shotgun. Perhaps your buddy could > provide a little more info ? > > Pendleton > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Have seen mid to late 1800 "Tyler" shotguns at gun shows, was told they where like "Tryon" and a few others in later years that assembled parts made in mass quantities for the hardware, general store chains like Sears, Wards, etc. The one's I looked at where of average workmanship and parts, nothing fancy, rolled engraving, etc. Probably available after the Civil War like so many of the farm guns in America. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ --------------D7E4443877FDA1DEE5F09E97-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step toward restoring Date: 21 Dec 2000 08:22:03 -0500 Ad they also introduced elk into arkansas several years ago but the GFD get real upset if you shoot them during deer season---most of the ones in arkansas were released in the buffilo river regin and now they are migrating out of that area and seem to be spreasding out and arkansas has even opened a limited season on a draw basis---first year believe it was 10 permits or 20 dont remember the exact number and this year they also has a special draw---and danny caywood got a bull ML permit and am looking forward to hearing how he did---- while i was there they arrested 2 guys for poaching a elk---and there was another reported gut shot that the GFD had to go in and destroy believe if the guy that got that elk checks it it will probably gett greeted by the GFD and probably get to pay a good fine and loose his equipment and such---they be relly narrow minded HAWK On Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:42:27 -0500 "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> writes: > My Father-In-Law read in USA Today a few days ago, where an Elk as > killed > this past season in Virginia! Seems they released several in the > mountains > to try and bring them back there too.... Problem is that they don't > have an > Elk season there, and the guy who shot it was scared spitless. > Seems it had > an ear tag on it. He finally called DNR adn they told him basically > that an > Elk was a relative of a deer, so they would count it as a deer, but > be sure > to tag it... > > Will wonders never cease... > > Ad Miller > Alderson WEST Virginia > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm Question Date: 21 Dec 2000 19:46:55 -0700 <html><head><meta Name=3D'keywords' Content=3D'commtouch, pronto, mail, = free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communicatio= ns, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></he= ad><body ><div align=3D'left'><font ><blockquote><blockquote><TT><BR= > ---- Begin Original Message ----<BR> > Anyone ever heard of a "Texas Tyler" Rifle or <BR> shotgun? A friend asked and I told him I know <BR> some fellers that might help.<BR> > Thanks<BR> > "Teton" Todd D. Glover<BR> > -----------------------<BR> > Todd,<BR> > =A0 Never heard of a "Texas Tyler" rifle or <BR> shotgun. =A0Perhaps your buddy could provide a <BR> little more info ?<BR> > Pendleton<BR> > ----------------------<BR> Have seen mid to late 1800 "Tyler" shotguns at <BR> gun shows, was told they where like "Tryon" and a <BR> few others in later years that assembled parts <BR> made in mass quantities for the hardware, general <BR> store chains like Sears, Wards, etc.<BR> <BR> Buck Conner<BR> ---- End Original Message ----<BR> <BR> I too have seen a few of these guns, one a <BR> double, the other a single shot; both percussion, <BR> read somewhere that they made early cart. guns. <BR> The ones I saw reminded me of the Western Field <BR> or Ted Williams guns of the 1950 (starter guns or <BR> as mentioned "farm guns").<BR> <BR> </TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=3Dleft><TT>Later, <BR> Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR> _____________________________________________ <BR> HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__<BR> Visit these related sites at: <BR> http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__<BR> http://pages.about.com/conner1/_________HRD__<BR> <BR> _____________________________________________ </TT><br><TT>Sign up for = a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></block= quote></div></font></body></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <Ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step toward restoring Date: 21 Dec 2000 20:56:43 -0800 Over here in Georgia, we had about 6 or 7 of them get loose from a animal farm and they were running around the woods in Cherokee county. The first year 5 of them were taken. Since they were private property that got lose, those that took them did not face any charges. Last year there was a cow and a young bull seen. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 5:22 AM toward restoring > Ad > they also introduced elk into arkansas several years ago but the GFD get > real upset if you shoot them during deer season---most of the ones in > arkansas were released in the buffilo river regin and now they are > migrating out of that area and seem to be spreasding out and arkansas has > even opened a limited season on a draw basis---first year believe it was > 10 permits or 20 dont remember the exact number and this year they also > has a special draw---and danny caywood got a bull ML permit and am > looking forward to hearing how he did---- > > while i was there they arrested 2 guys for poaching a elk---and there was > another reported gut shot that the GFD had to go in and destroy > > believe if the guy that got that elk checks it it will probably gett > greeted by the GFD and probably get to pay a good fine and loose his > equipment and such---they be relly narrow minded > > HAWK > > On Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:42:27 -0500 "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> > writes: > > My Father-In-Law read in USA Today a few days ago, where an Elk as > > killed > > this past season in Virginia! Seems they released several in the > > mountains > > to try and bring them back there too.... Problem is that they don't > > have an > > Elk season there, and the guy who shot it was scared spitless. > > Seems it had > > an ear tag on it. He finally called DNR adn they told him basically > > that an > > Elk was a relative of a deer, so they would count it as a deer, but > > be sure > > to tag it... > > > > Will wonders never cease... > > > > Ad Miller > > Alderson WEST Virginia > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <Ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period - a step toward restoring Date: 21 Dec 2000 20:57:40 -0800 Oops, Seems the cow gave birth. Do not know what happened to them, I think there may be one or two still running around. Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 5:22 AM toward restoring > Ad > they also introduced elk into arkansas several years ago but the GFD get > real upset if you shoot them during deer season---most of the ones in > arkansas were released in the buffilo river regin and now they are > migrating out of that area and seem to be spreasding out and arkansas has > even opened a limited season on a draw basis---first year believe it was > 10 permits or 20 dont remember the exact number and this year they also > has a special draw---and danny caywood got a bull ML permit and am > looking forward to hearing how he did---- > > while i was there they arrested 2 guys for poaching a elk---and there was > another reported gut shot that the GFD had to go in and destroy > > believe if the guy that got that elk checks it it will probably gett > greeted by the GFD and probably get to pay a good fine and loose his > equipment and such---they be relly narrow minded > > HAWK > > On Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:42:27 -0500 "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> > writes: > > My Father-In-Law read in USA Today a few days ago, where an Elk as > > killed > > this past season in Virginia! Seems they released several in the > > mountains > > to try and bring them back there too.... Problem is that they don't > > have an > > Elk season there, and the guy who shot it was scared spitless. > > Seems it had > > an ear tag on it. He finally called DNR adn they told him basically > > that an > > Elk was a relative of a deer, so they would count it as a deer, but > > be sure > > to tag it... > > > > Will wonders never cease... > > > > Ad Miller > > Alderson WEST Virginia > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 21 Dec 2000 19:04:55 -0700 >>I have an interesting book recounting the true story of an American sailor who came to be a slave to a Nootka chief on Vancouver Island for three years...<< I just finished reading that one! Very interesting. The edition I read was _White Slaves of Maquinna : John R. Jewitt's Narrative of Capture and Confinement at Nootka_, John. R. Jewitt. Edited by Cara Patik. Heritage House: Surrey, B.C., 2000. The bibliography cites a couple of other editions also. As for the Sandwich Islanders, I believe the first ones came to Astoria in 1811, just in time for David Thompson to pick one up (Coxe) for his return back across the Rockies. They became an institution in the fur trade; Fort Langley (near Vancouver, B.C.) interprets them, and their descendants still live in the area--and practice the traditional Hawaiian religion; the missionaries were too busy converting the Natives to bother with converting the Kanakas. (I read about this in an article in _Equinox_ magazine several years ago.) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 21 Dec 2000 21:07:53 -0700 C. Kent, Nathanial Wyeth also had some Kanakas working for him in 1835 according to his journals. They did some winter stuff, and decided that the islands were warmer, and deserted poor Nat. Guess you can't blame them....... Allen At 09:34 PM 12/20/2000 EST, you wrote: >Ho List, > >I was reading a book the other day that was written for juveniles about the >Fur trade era. It seemed pretty historically accurate on most points. When >describing the backgrounds of trappers and folks one would find at a >rendezvous it mentioned there were even some people from the Sandwich >Islands. Does this seem correct? Has anyone out there heard of this? If >so, what was the route/means by which these people made it into the Rockies? > >"Keep your nose to the wind and your eyes on the skyline" > >=C.Kent > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers from the Sandwich Islands? Date: 22 Dec 2000 01:52:24 EST Anyone read the book "Kanaka - The Untold Story of Hawaiian Pioneers in British Columbia and the Pacific Northwest," by Tom Koppel (Whitecap Books, Vancouver/Toronto, 1995) It has a lot of info regarding Sandwich Islanders involvement in the fur trade. Jim Hardee, AMM 1676 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jerry strobel" <kes49@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Loking for Bear Paw Trading Post. Date: 22 Dec 2000 17:38:56 I am looking for the address for Bear Paw Trading post in or around Newton, Kansas. Run by Kevin Hiebert. Kevin is my stepmother Leann (Heinrichs) Strobel's cousin. One of the fellas at Four Flags trading Post told me of Bear Paw yesterday when I asked him if he knew Kevin. Please can anyone put me on the right trail. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: MtMan-List: A Piece of Ivory Date: 22 Dec 2000 12:38:32 -0800 Halloo Just wanted to thank Dennis Miles for sending me a couple of pieces of Ivory for use as a period pick for my dulcimer. They are perfect for what I wanted. Thank you Good Sir! I am in your debt. Regards from the lands of Idaho Lee Newbill Pilgrim at Large ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Piece of Ivory Date: 22 Dec 2000 15:48:01 -0500 Lee.. My pleasure.. Your payback will be a melodious serenade at my camp one evening.. I will supply the adult beverages & you supply the adult tunes... Now all we need are some adults.. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver & ... [OT] Deer news items Date: 22 Dec 2000 22:18:48 -0500 (EST) USA Today, Fri. 12-22-2000, pp.17A-18A. 2 articles (1 by Tom Vanden Brook and other by John Ritter) "Beavers thrived and became a threat to drinking water supplies in Massachusetts after passage of a trapping ban in 1996. The Legislature had to reconstruct the law to allow some trapping." "A 39-point buck: Mike Beatty shows buck he killed with a bow in November in Greene County, Ohio [Ohio DNR photo via AP]." jdm question: is it a new Boone & Crockett world record? "Estimated white-tailed deer population 1. TEXAS - 4 million. 2. MICHIGAN - 1.8 million. 3. Mississippi, Wisconsin - 1.7 million each. 4. Alabama - 1.6 million. 5. Pennsylvania - 1.4 millon. 6. Georgia, Louisiana, New York, South Carolina, Virginia - 1 million each. (Ohio - 475,000) (New Mexico - 10,000). (14 states not available) Source: Insurance Information Institute; state wildlife agencies. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Piece of Ivory Date: 22 Dec 2000 19:43:56 -0800 If you want adults, I fear you may be on the wrong list. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 12:48 PM > Lee.. > My pleasure.. Your payback will be a melodious serenade at my camp one > evening.. I will supply the adult beverages & you supply the adult tunes... > Now all we need are some adults.. > D > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Piece of Ivory Date: 22 Dec 2000 22:00:34 -0800 Dennis Miles wrote: > Your payback will be a melodious serenade at my camp one > evening.. Happily done... you'll have to find someone to sing though if it's melodious ye want <G> > Now all we need are some adults.. I'm sorry Dennis... I have it on the best authority from me Mum, me darling Wife,, and me two mostly grown daughters, that I don't qualify on that count. Merry Christmas! Lee Newbill of Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Piece of Ivory Date: 23 Dec 2000 07:26:37 -0500 I'm sorry Dennis... I have it on the best authority from me Mum, me darling Wife,, and me two mostly grown daughters, that I don't qualify on that count. Well Lee... It seems we are in the same boat... My Good Wife laughed almost hysterically at the prospect off me or any of the Brothers she knows being "adult"... Oh well, we will ha' more fun without 'em...<BG> D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pavel Grund" <pavel.grund@worldonline.cz> Subject: MtMan-List: PF 2001 Date: 23 Dec 2000 22:52:33 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C06D33.094A5540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Merry Christmas and Best Wishes for a Happy and Prosperous New Year to All! Peggy ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C06D33.094A5540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-2" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2>Merry Christmas and Best Wishes = for a Happy=20 and Prosperous New Year to<BR>All!<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial CE" size=3D2>Peggy</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C06D33.094A5540-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> Subject: MtMan-List: MERRY CHRISTMAS Date: 24 Dec 2000 10:30:03 -0500 For about a year or more, I have been privilaged to be a part of this list. I have met several people that are part of it, and have corresponded with many others. I wish to thank all of you for the invaluable information I have gleened from this list, and I am thankful for the friendships that I have formed with many I have met. May all of you have the Merriest of Christmas's, and a wonderful and prosperous new Mellineum (01 Jan 2001 is the REAL one). May what ever God or gods you believe in smile on you, and keep you safe. Remember, there is always room for one for friend at the fire, and always enough in the pot to feed those who stop by. MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL..... Addison and Vicki Miller (SeanBear and the Mouse) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: MERRY CHRISTMAS Date: 24 Dec 2000 12:30:52 EST Just want to wish everyone on the list a very Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year and despite all the incorrect hype last year, a Happy New Century! Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" (Newly Redesigned) http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Christmas Cheer Date: 24 Dec 2000 16:16:06 -0700 Just stoped in one last time this Christmas eve and found a lot of Christmas cheer flowing. I been hanging around here so long a handful of Chirstmas' have passed and it warms the heart each year to know the quality of company we keep here. We're bound by a common love, and eventhough I haven't met half of you I know we're friends just the same. Merry Christmas and bountiful blessings in the New Year! "Teton" Todd D. Glover Great Salt Lake Vlley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: HUNTERS XMAS Date: 25 Dec 2000 06:27:59 -0700 WISH ALL A HAPPY ONE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< THE HUNTER O Great Spirit, lord of all,teach my sons the ways of your animals, Let them understand each ones place in your scheme of life. only then can they hold a share of your bounty. and when they have this locked in their hearts...no man can ever steal it away earlson 78 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Susan Gilbert" <sgilbert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Holiday Greetings! Date: 25 Dec 2000 11:47:53 -0600 (CST) Care deeply, Give freely, Think kindly, Act gently, and be at peace with the world... This is the spirit of the season and my wish for you! Merry be you all as we totter on the brink of the 3rd Millennium! Susan Gilbert 6 Beaver Camp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Holiday Greetings! Date: 25 Dec 2000 12:49:33 EST In a message dated 12/25/00 9:46:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, sgilbert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu writes: << as we totter on the brink of the 3rd Millennium! >> after the shindig last night. tottering it is... <GGG> MERRY CHRISTMAS and the best of the Holidays to each and every one of you, and yours, and THANK YOU all for having me as part of this incredible e-based brotherhood. Ralph Rosen (Barney) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Christmas Cheer Date: 25 Dec 2000 16:07:52 -0800 Thanks, Todd, And a propsperous New Century to ol' farts everywhere! Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 3:16 PM > Just stoped in one last time this Christmas eve and found a lot of > Christmas cheer flowing. I been hanging around here so long a handful of > Chirstmas' have passed and it warms the heart each year to know the > quality of company we keep here. We're bound by a common love, and > eventhough I haven't met half of you I know we're friends just the same. > > Merry Christmas and bountiful blessings in the New Year! > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > Great Salt Lake Vlley > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Holiday Greetings! Date: 26 Dec 2000 00:17:29 -0500 On Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:47:53 -0600 (CST) "Susan Gilbert" <sgilbert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> writes: > Susan Gilbert > 6 Beaver Camp darling good xmas post---have a happy holiday and a prosperous new year and many more---from this house hold to yours ---our best holiday greetings "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard J Holliday <rjhdvm@rconnect.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Place to visit Date: 26 Dec 2000 09:39:18 -0600 --=====================_5386669==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Good Morning! I have been lurking on this list for a few months and have thoroughly enjoyed to information and conversations. Circumstance do not permit me to participate in regular mountain man activities but I do like to do the crafts such as old time wood working, leather working, beading etc. I am leaving today for Salt Lake City/Provo and I was wondering if anyone could recommend any museums, exhibits or stores in that area pertaining to mountain men or the fur trade. Also where would be a good place to get a good fur hat? I hope this request is appropriate to this list ... if not, please accept my apologies. TIA Have a great day! Doc Holliday *********************************************** Richard J. Holliday, DVM Office: 319 568 3401 Holistic Dairy Consultant Residence 319 568 3624 203 2nd St. N.E. Fax: 319 568 4359 Waukon, Iowa 52172 Mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.com or Mailto:rjhdvm@aol.com http://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/OurHomePage.html *********************************************** "Those who teach must constantly hold up the challenge to study nature, not books." William A. Albrecht, Ph.D. --=====================_5386669==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" <html> Good Morning!<br> <br> I have been lurking on this list for a few months and have thoroughly enjoyed to information and conversations. Circumstance do not permit me to participate in regular mountain man activities but I do like to do the crafts such as old time wood working, leather working, beading etc. <br> <br> I am leaving today for Salt Lake City/Provo and I was wondering if anyone could recommend any museums, exhibits or stores in that area pertaining to mountain men or the fur trade. Also where would be a good place to get a good fur hat?<br> <br> I hope this request is appropriate to this list ... if not, please accept my apologies. TIA<br> <x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep> Have a great day!<br> <br> Doc Holliday<br> <br> *********************************************** <br> Richard J. Holliday, DVM Office: 319 568 3401 <br> Holistic Dairy Consultant Residence 319 568 3624 <br> 203 2nd St. N.E. Fax: 319 568 4359 <br> Waukon, Iowa 52172 <br> <font color="#0000FF"><u><a href="mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.com" eudora="autourl">Mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.</a><a href="mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.com" eudora="autourl">com</a></u></font> or <a href="mailto:rjhdvm@aol.com" eudora="autourl">Mailto:rjhdvm@aol.com</a><br> <font color="#0000FF"><u><a href="http://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/OurHomePage.html" eudora="autourl">http</a>://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/OurHomePage.<a href="http://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/OurHomePage.html" eudora="autourl">html</a></u></font> <br> *********************************************** <br> "Those who teach must constantly hold up <br> the challenge to study nature, not books." <br> William A. Albrecht, Ph.D.<br> <br> </html> --=====================_5386669==_.ALT-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Place to visit Date: 26 Dec 2000 10:56:42 -0700 --------------A3197CBBAA039E5CC2061075 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard J Holliday wrote: > Good Morning! > > I have been lurking on this list for a few months and have > thoroughly enjoyed to information and conversations. > Circumstance do not permit me to participate in regular > mountain man activities but I do like to do the crafts > such as old time wood working, leather working, beading > etc. > > I am leaving today for Salt Lake City/Provo and I was > wondering if anyone could recommend any museums, exhibits > or stores in that area pertaining to mountain men or the > fur trade. Also where would be a good place to get a > good fur hat? > > I hope this request is appropriate to this list ... if > not, please accept my apologies. TIA > > Have a great day! > > Doc Holliday > > *********************************************** > Richard J. Holliday, DVM Office: 319 568 3401 > Holistic Dairy Consultant Residence 319 568 3624 > 203 2nd St. N.E. Fax: 319 568 4359 > Waukon, Iowa 52172 > Mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.com or Mailto:rjhdvm@aol.com > http://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/OurHomePage.html > *********************************************** > "Those who teach must constantly hold up > the challenge to study nature, not books." > William A. Albrecht, Ph.D. > Doc, Are you going to be near Ft. Collins, Co, just south (of Laramie WYO) about 45 miles from I-80 if traveling on it, good source store there - Cache La Poudre Rifleworks on 168 N. College Ave. (main drag) and on the end of town you would come in from, check it out if possible. Have a large selection of fur hat that are correctly made. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ --------------A3197CBBAA039E5CC2061075 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Richard J Holliday wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE> Good Morning! <p>I have been lurking on this list for a few months and have thoroughly enjoyed to information and conversations. Circumstance do not permit me to participate in regular mountain man activities but I do like to do the crafts such as old time wood working, leather working, beading etc. <p>I am leaving today for Salt Lake City/Provo and I was wondering if anyone could recommend any museums, exhibits or stores in that area pertaining to mountain men or the fur trade. Also where would be a good place to get a good fur hat? <p>I hope this request is appropriate to this list ... if not, please accept my apologies. TIA <br><x-sigsep> <p></x-sigsep>Have a great day! <p>Doc Holliday <p>*********************************************** <br>Richard J. Holliday, DVM Office: 319 568 3401 <br>Holistic Dairy Consultant Residence 319 568 3624 <br>203 2nd St. N.E. Fax: 319 568 4359 <br>Waukon, Iowa 52172 <br><u><font color="#0000FF"><a href="mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.com" eudora="autourl">Mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.com</a></font></u> or <a href="mailto:rjhdvm@aol.com" eudora="autourl">Mailto:rjhdvm@aol.com</a> <br><u><font color="#0000FF"><a href="http://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/OurHomePage.html" eudora="autourl">http</a>://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/OurHomePage.<a href="http://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/OurHomePage.html" eudora="autourl">html</a></font></u> <br>*********************************************** <br>"Those who teach must constantly hold up <br>the challenge to study nature, not books." <br>William A. Albrecht, Ph.D. <br> </blockquote> <br>Doc, <p>Are you going to be near Ft. Collins, Co, just south (of Laramie WYO) about 45 miles from I-80 if traveling on it, good source store there - Cache La Poudre Rifleworks on 168 N. College Ave. (main drag) and on the end of town you would come in from, check it out if possible. Have a large selection of fur hat that are correctly made. <p>Later, <br>Buck Conner <br>Research page: <br><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/conner1/">http://pages.about.com/conner1/</A> _______HRD__ <br>Personal page: <br><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> <br>____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ <br> </html> --------------A3197CBBAA039E5CC2061075-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Place to visit Date: 26 Dec 2000 10:51:23 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01C4_01C06F29.C9843180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also where would be a good place to get a good fur hat?=20 Doc, Hope your having a great day and thanks for the good wishes. I live up = in WA. and am not that familiar with the Salt Lake area other than = figuring out how to drive through to some place I'm headed to so I can't = help you there. I would suggest since you like to do craft projects that rather than = buy some kind of modern fur hat that Mt. Men were "supposed" to wear, = you do a bit of research to find out what really was worn and then make = your own. One sees a lot of "critter" hats at Rendezvous these days but = it is very questionable whether such were ever worn at least by any more = than a couple fellas back then.=20 One style of hat that was worn, at least in cold climates is the = "Canadian Cap" (I believe Franklin had one). They are quit easy to make. = No bill/brim just a wool scull cap made up of 4 "bullet" shaped pieces = and a couple strips of your favorite fur critter sewn around at the = bottom of the wool part and then closed at both ends to form a "fold = down" "rim" of fur that can be lined with wool (which would show when = the fur is "rolled down" to the inside or lined with some other nice = material. I have one I made of a fox hide. It takes about that much fur to come = up with two strips wide enough and long enough for my fat head. The hide = was cut down the middle and the two sides "squared" up and joined at = both ends to make a loop. I used wool blanket material for the scull cap = but made it in two layers so it shows no seams inside or out. The fur is = lined with one layer of wool and the cap has some light weight red wool = for some trimming in the "hat band" area. I made it a bit loose and = plenty deep with a draw string inside the hat band so I can snug it up = to make an exact fit to my head. With the fur up, it comes down over the = tops of my ears and with the fur down comes down around the back of my = neck and just over my eyes with the front rolled up a bit. Plenty warm. = With that hat on I look a bit like Genghus Kahn (sic?) according to my = wife! <G. Anyway it was fun making it, it is functional and fairly period = correct. Enjoy your trip.=20 Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_01C4_01C06F29.C9843180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1252"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Also where would be a good place to = get a good=20 fur hat? </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Doc,</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Hope your having a great day and = thanks for the=20 good wishes. I live up in WA. and am not that familiar with the Salt = Lake area=20 other than figuring out how to drive through to some place I'm headed = to so I=20 can't help you there.</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> I would suggest since you like = to do craft=20 projects that rather than buy some kind of modern fur hat that Mt. Men = were=20 "supposed" to wear, you do a bit of research to find out what really = was worn=20 and then make your own. One sees a lot of "critter" hats at Rendezvous = these=20 days but it is very questionable whether such were ever worn at least = by any=20 more than a couple fellas back then. </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">One style of hat that was worn, at = least in cold=20 climates is the "Canadian Cap" (I believe Franklin had one). They are = quit=20 easy to make. No bill/brim just a wool scull cap made up of 4 "bullet" = shaped=20 pieces and a couple strips of your favorite fur critter sewn around at = the=20 bottom of the wool part and then closed at both ends to form a "fold = down"=20 "rim" of fur that can be lined with wool (which would show when the = fur is=20 "rolled down" to the inside or lined with some other nice = material.</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">I have one I made of a fox hide. It = takes about=20 that much fur to come up with two strips wide enough and long enough = for my=20 fat head. The hide was cut down the middle and the two sides "squared" = up and=20 joined at both ends to make a loop. I used wool blanket material for = the scull=20 cap but made it in two layers so it shows no seams inside or out. The = fur is=20 lined with one layer of wool and the cap has some light weight red = wool for=20 some trimming in the "hat band" area. I made it a bit loose and plenty = deep=20 with a draw string inside the hat band so I can snug it up to make an = exact=20 fit to my head. With the fur up, it comes down over the tops of my = ears and=20 with the fur down comes down around the back of my neck and just over = my eyes=20 with the front rolled up a bit. Plenty warm. With that hat on I look a = bit=20 like Genghus Kahn (sic?) according to my wife! <G.</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Anyway it was fun making it, it is = functional=20 and fairly period correct. Enjoy your trip. </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Capt. Lahti'</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE"><FONT=20 size=3D2></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_01C4_01C06F29.C9843180-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Indian prayer Date: 26 Dec 2000 13:41:40 -0600 Below is a prayer attributed to Sioux Indian Chief, Yellow Lark. As I understand the history of this prayer, Yellow Lark was one of very few American Indians, of the time, admitted to Freemasonry. He offered this prayer during one of the rituals admitting other men [Indian or white, I don't know]. This was sometime during the Revolutionary period, I have been told. It is appropriate at any time but I offer it in this Holy Christmas season. And, I suggest that the word 'brother' can be extended to all who share a common bond and trust. "O Great Spirit; Whose voice we hear in the winds and Whose breath gives life to all the world, hear us. We come before You, Your children, we are small and weak, we need Your strength and Your wisdom. Let us walk in beauty and make our eyes ever behold the red and purple sunset. And especially walk with these brothers who, today, embark on an ancient journey in search of Your truth. Make our hands respect the things You have made, our ears sharp to hear Your voice. Make us wise so that we may know the things You have taught all the Brothers, the lessons You have hidden in every leaf and rock. We seek strength not to be superior to our Brothers, but to be able to fight our greatest enemies - - ourselves. Make us ready to come to You with clean hands and straight eyes, so when life fades as a fading sunset our spirit may come to You without shame." Frank G. Fusco FOB #221 Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 28 Dec 2000 07:53:57 -0700 Gentelmen, I have heard that the Amish make reproduction parts for carriages and waggons, does anyone have a source for such items? YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stitchin' Scotsman" <stitchin@iowasocean.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 28 Dec 2000 09:40:14 -0800 Ole: I don't have one lying around handy (but I will start digging) but there is an Amish Company called Lehman's [s] that has a real nice catalog out there but they are a bit pricey. If I can find the thing I will give you better information. Long John -----Original Message----- >Gentelmen, >I have heard that the Amish make reproduction parts for carriages and >waggons, does anyone have a source for such items? >YMOS >Ole # 718 > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 28 Dec 2000 09:37:55 -0600 Long John wrote: "there is an Amish Company called Lehman's" Here is the web site with a link to order a catalog. Lanney Ratcliff=20 http://www.lehmans.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lynn Kirby <lynnkirby@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 28 Dec 2000 07:54:34 -0800 (PST) Ole, you might try Cumberland General Store I know they have a section on buggys and wagons in their catalog. Their ph. number is 1-800-334-4640 --- "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> wrote: > Gentelmen, > I have heard that the Amish make reproduction parts > for carriages and > waggons, does anyone have a source for such items? > YMOS > Ole # 718 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 28 Dec 2000 11:06:30 EST > I have heard that the Amish make reproduction parts for carriages and > waggons, does anyone have a source for such items? Ole, Exactly what is it that you are looking for? I have a stock duplicator and can also reproduce such things as spokes and spindles "IF" you have a pattern that I can chuck between the centers. I can handle up to an 8 inch diameter and 72 inches long. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stitchin' Scotsman" <stitchin@iowasocean.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels,off topic Date: 28 Dec 2000 11:41:49 -0800 Lanney: I know this has been mentioned to death but don't you find it strange that the Amish have a website??? Long John -----Original Message----- >Long John wrote: >"there is an Amish Company called Lehman's" >Here is the web site with a link to order a catalog. >Lanney Ratcliff >http://www.lehmans.com/ > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels,off topic Date: 28 Dec 2000 12:40:59 EST > I know this has been mentioned to death but don't you find it > strange that the Amish have a website??? They don't. The mercenaries who sell their stuff do. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Anchorage Fur Rendezvous Date: 28 Dec 2000 13:58:13 EST For a break from cabin fever, check this out... annual Fur Rendezvous in Anchorage... different than most, and looks like lots of fun.... www.furrondy.net Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 28 Dec 2000 15:02:34 EST Ole I have heard that the Amish make reproduction parts for carriages and waggons, does anyone have a source for such items? YMOS Ole # 718 There was a guy at Ft. Bridger from Riverton Wyoming that will make anything you want and at a good price. Also there is Bill Twig in Moscow, Idaho. They are in that country story catalog out of Tennessee where DeLoy sells his courting candles. If this is what you want I have these addresses but no direct connections. Maybe John does. There is a guy up in Peterson (Morgan) that got wheels from the Amish, but they were more expensive than Twigg, who is more expensive than the Riverton guy. Twigg did my cannon wheels. Now I am having some stuff done in Riverton Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 28 Dec 2000 17:31:18 -0700 "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Gentelmen, > I have heard that the Amish make reproduction parts for carriages and > waggons, does anyone have a source for such items? > YMOS > Ole # 718 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Ole, Lehmans' www.lehmans.com info@lehmans.com Brother Dennis Miles lives close to these folks and maybe of help also, living in the Amish country. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels,off topic Date: 28 Dec 2000 17:39:33 -0700 Stitchin' Scotsman wrote: > Lanney: I know this has been mentioned to death but don't you find > itstrange that the Amish have a website??? Long John John, A good part of my mother's family are Amish/Quaker in Pennsylvania, drive cars, have tractors, etc. but are still considered "plain people", nothing fancy other than their quilts. I know of several web sites that are Amish/Quaker owned and operated, handling clothing, edibles, etc. for their needs. I write to several family members by e-mail on a monthly routine, they are smarter and more advanced than most realize, just keep a low profile. May be there's a lesson to be learned from that !!! Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" <icurapossum_hunter2@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 28 Dec 2000 21:18:58 -0800 Ole B. Jensen wrote: > I have heard that the Amish make reproduction parts for carriages and waggons, does anyone have a source for such items? You will get screwed by those who re-sell Amish made buggy parts they often double prices. Buy from an Amish owned shop such as: Troyer's Carriage Shop 4558 TWP 628 Millersburg, OH 44651 or Neal's Harness Shop R.D.1 New Wilmington, PA 16142 Note: Real Amish shops have no phone or electricity Another very good buggy shop is at DollyWood...No kidding...They do quality work. Write to: Merchandise Division DollyWood 1020 Dollywood Lane Pigeon Forge, TN 37863-4101 or phone (423) 428-9445 Hope this helps, Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stitchin' Scotsman" <stitchin@iowasocean.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels,off topic Date: 28 Dec 2000 20:33:35 -0800 Buck:: I 'm just outside Amish Country here { Yoders}. You forgot to mention that they are hard workers. An Amish group sided and painted my barn {in the dead of winter} and when I asked the foreman if they had insurance (after seeing two of the younger ones run across the barn roof) he said that they took responsibility for themselves! Very refreshing in a time where quite a few folks are trying to place the blame on everyone else. A lot of their 'bad press' comes from the 'old timers' that consider anyone that doesn't join in community events to be an 'outsider' and thus people to be ridiculed. My apologies to anyone who took my 'stab at wit' as slander. Long John -----Original Message----- >Stitchin' Scotsman wrote: > >> Lanney: I know this has been mentioned to death but don't you find >> itstrange that the Amish have a website??? Long John > >John, >A good part of my mother's family are Amish/Quaker in Pennsylvania, drive >cars, have tractors, etc. but are still considered "plain people", nothing >fancy other than their quilts. I know of several web sites that are >Amish/Quaker owned and operated, handling clothing, edibles, etc. for their >needs. I write to several family members by e-mail on a monthly routine, >they are smarter and more advanced than most realize, just keep a low >profile. May be there's a lesson to be learned from that !!! > >Later, >Buck Conner >Research page: >http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ >Personal page: >http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ >____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 29 Dec 2000 07:10:36 -0700 Possum Hunter wrote: > Ole B. Jensen wrote: > > I have heard that the Amish make reproduction parts for carriages and > waggons, does anyone have a source for such items? > > You will get screwed by those who re-sell Amish made buggy parts they often > double prices. Buy from an Amish owned shop such as: > > Troyer's Carriage Shop > 4558 TWP 628 > Millersburg, OH 44651 > or > Neal's Harness Shop > R.D.1 > New Wilmington, PA 16142 > > Note: Real Amish shops have no phone or electricity > That's not always true anymore, have a cousin that's in Lancaster PA - owns a TV/computer repair store (his wife is Amish), 20% of his trade is Amish/Quaker (new belief). He says they hang around in front of the store until closing then come in, go through the store to the back and stand there. John closes up and goes to the back, where they have a TV or radio that won't change channels - usually full of hay dust from being used in the barn - out of sight from rest of family. In many of the settlements there are pay phones at a general store for emergency service and tourist needs. Saw a black Buick - no chrome - all painted black, emergency rig with red cross on it (use to white with red cross) at a settlement house a few years ago outside York PA a few years ago. So not everything is plain as TV tries to show it. Back in the early 60"s I worked for an outfit installing exhaust fans in "plain & fancy" eating places in York and Lancaster - they would blow the fumes from the bake ovens up a stack in the wind mills to the hungry community - nothing like fresh pies baking to make one think about eating. As a group or clan of people that own a large percentage of the farm ground around the country, they are pretty good businessmen, not as backwards or low key as they try to appear. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 29 Dec 2000 09:25:27 -0500 To add to Buck's comments about the Amish... Don't even TRY to out horse trade them or make the Brothers of the family fightin' mad.. Pacifists my arse..<G> D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 29 Dec 2000 15:01:42 -0700 <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><font ><blockquote><blockquote><TT><BR> ---- Begin Original Message ----<BR> From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net><BR> <BR> To add to Buck's comments about the Amish...<BR> Don't even TRY to out horse trade them or make<BR> the Brothers of the family fightin' mad..<BR> Pacifists my arse..<G><BR> D<BR> <BR> ---- End Original Message ----<BR> <BR> Hey Dennis,<BR> <BR> When Buck and yours truely where young dudes, (he<BR> just got his drivers lic.) we traded for a couple<BR> of Amish "flat hats" and got a couple of the<BR> blue/tur. shirts - had ideas of slipping in on<BR> some of the young Amish ladies. Wrong like you<BR> say "Pacifists my arse..<G>", those boys may not<BR> fight, but they sure can give you one hell of a<BR> brotherly hug, ask Buck about his ribs <G><G><G>.<BR> <BR> </TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Later, <BR> Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR> _____________________________________________ <BR> HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__<BR> Visit these related sites at: <BR> http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__<BR> http://pages.about.com/conner1/_________HRD__<BR> <BR> _____________________________________________ </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 29 Dec 2000 15:17:13 -0700 <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><font ><blockquote><blockquote><TT>Possum Hunter wrote:<BR> > > Note: Real Amish shops have no phone or<BR> electricity<BR> > ><BR> Buck Conner wrote:<BR> > TV or radio that won't change channels -<BR> usually full of hay dust from being used in the<BR> barn...........<BR> > <BR> Many of the younger folks do have elect., used<BR> for some items where required, two months ago a<BR> barn burned down from a elect. short - never said<BR> what shorted out causing the problem. <BR> <BR> The burned building was cleared in a weekend and<BR> foundation was rebuilt, new timbers where readied<BR> and last week the clan put that 4-5,000 sq ft<BR> barn backup, even painted it on a warm day, while<BR> I went over and watched and ate, was told "this<BR> was for the younger men to do - say not". Love<BR> these people Dennis, they ask and answer all in<BR> the same sentence.<BR> <BR> "Looks like it may snow, say not".<BR> <BR> <BR> </TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Later, <BR> Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR> _____________________________________________ <BR> HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__<BR> Visit these related sites at: <BR> http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__<BR> http://pages.about.com/conner1/_________HRD__<BR> <BR> _____________________________________________ </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Carriage Wheels, and Axels? Date: 29 Dec 2000 19:11:56 -0700 --------------4D3FEC6D085F0C3CA18EF512 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "Dennis Miles" wrote: > > To add to Buck's comments about the > Amish... > Don't even TRY to out horse trade them > or make > the Brothers of the family fightin' > mad.. > Pacifists my arse..<G> > D > > "Daniel L. Smith" wrote: > Wrong like you say "Pacifists my > arse..<G>", those boys may not fight, > but they sure can give you one hell of > a brotherly hug, ask Buck about his > ribs <G><G><G>. > Thanks for the memories pal, had forgotten all about those unsuccessful ventures, that - I think was your "brain storm" that got my "arse" as Dennis would say "kicked". "With friends like this, who needs anything else, say not." Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ --------------4D3FEC6D085F0C3CA18EF512 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <blockquote TYPE=CITE> <blockquote> <blockquote><font face="Times New Roman,Times">"Dennis Miles" wrote:</font><font face="Times New Roman,Times"></font> <p><font face="Times New Roman,Times">To add to Buck's comments about the Amish...</font> <br><font face="Times New Roman,Times">Don't even TRY to out horse trade them or make</font> <br><font face="Times New Roman,Times">the Brothers of the family fightin' mad..</font> <br><font face="Times New Roman,Times">Pacifists my arse..<G></font> <br><font face="Times New Roman,Times">D</font><font face="Times New Roman,Times"></font> <p><font face="Times New Roman,Times">"Daniel L. Smith" wrote:</font> <br><font face="Times New Roman,Times">Wrong like you say "Pacifists my arse..<G>", those boys may not fight, but they sure can give you one hell of a brotherly hug, ask Buck about his ribs <G><G><G>.</font></blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> Thanks for the memories pal, had forgotten all about those unsuccessful ventures, that - I think was your "brain storm" that got my "arse" as Dennis would say "kicked". "With friends like this, who needs anything else, say not." <p>Later, <br>Buck Conner <br>Research page: <br><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/conner1/">http://pages.about.com/conner1/</A> _______HRD__ <br>Personal page: <br><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> <br>____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ <br> </html> --------------4D3FEC6D085F0C3CA18EF512-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Indian prayer Date: 30 Dec 2000 08:55:19 -0000 http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/sanguinito.html says the "Indian's Prayer" was created by Dr. Tom Whitecloud II, a contemporary and founding father of the Association of American Indian Physicians in 1971. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner >Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 13:41:40 -0600 >From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> >Subject: MtMan-List: Indian prayer > Below is a prayer attributed to Sioux Indian Chief, Yellow Lark. > As I understand the history of this prayer, Yellow Lark was one of very >few American Indians, of the time, admitted to Freemasonry. He offered this >prayer during one of the rituals admitting other men [Indian or white, I >don't know]. This was sometime during the Revolutionary period, I have been >told. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalos and sinew question Date: 30 Dec 2000 13:10:41 -0600 I had a rather eventfull morning as about seven A.M. one of our neighbors who raises buffalo called with the unfortunate news that one of his 21/2 year old bulls died last night. He wanted my wife to come over and autopsy it to look for possible reasons for its untimely demise, (our vet clinic takes care of his herd health). I tagged along to help and, more importantly, because he said I could have the hide and the head if I wanted it. That was great news to me as I have wanted a good winter hide for some projects. I got the hide off no problem and on the way home I stopped at the local quick wash and sprayed it off to remove dirt and blood, boy did I ever get some strange looks from folks as they walked by since they hide still had the head and horns on. I have other tanned full size hair on Buffalo hides but I could never bring myself to cutting one up for smaller projects. Now I have one suitable for that. As I was skinning it all I could think about was projects, two hair on flintlock covers made from the knee, shooting pouch with hair on flap made from the buffalos forehead, Priming horn and knife scales from one horn, and many more projects to come. I couldn't believe the size and amount of sinew that came from this one animal and my question is regarding how to go about using this for thread. Do you just dry it and tear it into pieces or what exactly should I do to it? Northwoods ( In balmy northern WI where it is above freezing today for the first time since early November) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalos and sinew question Date: 30 Dec 2000 12:06:26 -0800 Wow, what a morning...! You lucky mountain Man you..... What'e the buff die of??? Just curious. I have used sinew for sewing, but have never prepared it. I assume one would scrape it down good and let it dry? The sinew I have used comes in narrow 'sheets'. I pounded it with a hammer to spread it out and break up the glue, once this is done the 'threads' can be pulled apart. When sewing I keep it slightly damp, so it will be more pliable. Hope this helps some...? an envious hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: cannon wheels Date: 30 Dec 2000 18:41:12 -0600 Dick James wrote, <Twigg did my cannon wheels> Dick, you have a website or address for Twigg? I am needing a couple cannon wheels. Thanks, Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Indian prayer Date: 30 Dec 2000 18:59:48 -0600 The reference to this prayer being credited to Dr. Whitecloud in 1971 seems a bit dubious to me. My information about the prayer came from a Masonic publication. It certainly would be easier for someone in 1971 to 'borrow' the prayer from a 1776 source than visa versa. And the (original) wording has definite Masonic references which, I am sure, were readily recognized by Masons reading this list. Frank G. Fusco FOB #221 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalos and sinew question Date: 30 Dec 2000 18:29:36 -0700 On the fresh sinew, scrape off as much of the meat and fat as you can. Lay it so it will dry flat and it will naturally dry itself in about 1 week. Like Randy said, pound it with a blunt object, so you won't tear it or break it. After pounding, it might still a little hard, thats ok. It will split in thin fibers like the artifical stuff, and you can make it any thickness you want. It can be made into longer strings by wetting and twisting (or rolling) it in your hands. It will be harder to use than regular thread and may even have a few burrs in it. But, works great and lasts a long time. I have never beaded with it, maybe someone else can help you with that. mike. Randal J Bublitz wrote: > Wow, what a morning...! You lucky mountain Man you..... What'e the > buff die of??? Just curious. I have used sinew for sewing, but have > never prepared it. I assume one would scrape it down good and let it > dry? The sinew I have used comes in narrow 'sheets'. I pounded it with > a hammer to spread it out and break up the glue, once this is done the > 'threads' can be pulled apart. When sewing I keep it slightly damp, so > it will be more pliable. Hope this helps some...? > an envious hardtack > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Jewell <tjewell@home.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Introduction Date: 30 Dec 2000 23:08:36 -0500 Hello the list, My name is Tim and I thought it would be proper to introduce myself before I start asking questions. I feel like I already know a lot of you folks because I have spent the last week or two reading all the archives for the year 2000. I have been to several of the big NMLRA Easterns and have what is a passable outfit for such events. I have recently developed a real interest in devloping a legitmate persona (as opposed to the generic mountain man) and adjusting my gear to become more "PC". I have found a wealth of information in the list archives but I still have a lot of questions that I hope some of you can help me with. ymos, Tim p.s. being new to the list and this computer stuff, please let me know if I make any breaches of form or etiquite ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalos and sinew question Date: 30 Dec 2000 23:35:16 EST In a message dated 12/30/0 12:04:09 PM, northwoods@ez-net.com writes: <<sinew that came from this one animal and my question is regarding how to go about using this for thread. Do you just dry it and tear it into pieces or what exactly should I do to it?>> Very importaint to make sure it is clean.. Scrape it, scrub it - whatever - to get all the membrane and other fibers off of it. When it is satisfactory, lay it flat and let it air dry as quickly as possible. Keep turning it so it doesn't mildew. But then you just described the weather there - Do all the above and it will probably just freeze-dry -- just takes a little longer. R. James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalos and sinew question Date: 30 Dec 2000 23:40:05 EST In a message dated 12/30/0 12:04:09 PM, northwoods@ez-net.com writes: <<sinew that came from this one animal and my question is regarding how to go about using this for thread. Do you just dry it and tear it into pieces or what exactly should I do to it?>> Sorry - left off the last part of the message. When it is powder dry you can pound it with a mallet and see the fibers separate into threads. To sew with it , get it wet again EXCEPT for a piece of the end a couple of inches - keep this hard and stiff as it is your needle. Sioux ladies of another century would keep the piece curled up in their mouth to soften it, except for the dry piece sticking out to stay dry . . . or so I've been told. RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalos and sinew question Date: 30 Dec 2000 23:49:18 EST In a message dated 12/30/0 06:33:54 PM, amm1616@earthlink.net writes: <<It (sinue)will be harder to use than regular thread and may even have a=20 few burrs in it. But, works great and lasts a long time. I have never beaded= =20 with it, maybe someone else can help you with that. mike.>> What is significant is that writers of a few decades ago insisted only the=20 larger beads were available and used and that Indians didn't have needles=20 small enough for the little holes. Here we have a reference to beading, and= =20 . . . you need no needle. Smaller holes use a smaller split of sinue. It i= s=20 a pain, though, that the pieces are so short, but that's the way they=20 quilled, also. Incidentally, I have handled and measured beads that were in= =20 Jim Bridger's trading post - trampled into the dirt beneith the ashes when i= t=20 was burned. They are an Italian 4=B0 in every appearance - closer to a Czec= h=20 #12 than a #11, but very irregular and quite a variety even in this one size= .=20 Not really big holes, but sinue could handle it. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cannon wheels Date: 31 Dec 2000 00:00:52 EST In a message dated 12/30/0 05:45:07 PM, frankf@centurytel.net writes: <<you have a website or address for Twigg? I am needing a couple cannon wheels. Thanks, Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas>> Frank - I'm not sure that he has one asI dealt with him on several things before Al Gore invented Web sites. I just went to see if I could find you a regular address/phone, etc. and it is hiding from me. I'll save this message, though and look it up for you tomorrow. Anyway, he is Bill Twig - Moscow Carriage Works, in Moscow, Idaho. Been at it for years and knows just what we need. He doesn't just do standard sizes, but will make any size you want. I have a 40mm which is about an inch and a half so it it much smaller than a 6 pounder. To make it to scale I needed 35" wheels, and that is just what I got. I'll get back to you after church tomorrow. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Introduction Date: 30 Dec 2000 20:28:09 -0800 Tim, Welcome to the list. Good to see you. Ask away.... there are very imformative fellows and ladies here. Where do you live? hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Introduction Date: 31 Dec 2000 00:34:06 EST Hallo Tim. Breaches. Breeches. Sir, you couldn't possibly make more breaches of ettiquette than any of us on the list have not already made before you. And that, Tim, is why we all take an oath not to dwell on one another's foibles and recollections of posts that we make to the list made late at night, under the influence of whiskey, or while we are otherwise out of our minds or bodies. Welcome to the fire, Tim. It keeps us all warm while we are away from one another. Happy New Year, whatever year you prefer to live (or remember). Laura Jean Glise Wind1838@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cannon wheels Date: 31 Dec 2000 07:45:42 -0700 Frank, I found an old card Bill Twigg 3240 Lenville Rd Moscow, ID 83843 208-882-2445 YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> >To: "AMM" <hist_text@xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: cannon wheels >Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000, 5:41 PM > >Dick James wrote, > > <Twigg did my cannon wheels> > >Dick, you have a website or address for Twigg? I am needing a couple cannon >wheels. >Thanks, >Frank G. Fusco >Mountain Home, Arkansas > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Crows" <dbrown@wavegate.com> Subject: MtMan-List: sinew question Date: 31 Dec 2000 10:25:36 -0500 Yep, Get it as clean of meat as you can and just let it dry hard. It's the most wonderful material. You can strip off any size thread you want. Wish I had some buffalo sinew. Two Crows David Brown & Kristin Poulsen Wollendael 4419 Gore-Subligna Rd. Summerville, GA 30747 "There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at without result." --Winston Churchill dbrown@wavegate.com http://www.2crows2.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sinew question Date: 31 Dec 2000 10:22:04 -0500 Don't forget the leg tendons!!!!!! Clean & dry them, then pound them with a maul... Separate the fibers... Short for sewing, but I use these almost exclusively for wrapping hafts or repairs of knives... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cannon wheels Date: 31 Dec 2000 10:47:55 -0500 Depending on the size wheels, PAnther Primitive has wheels up to 36" I believe... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Greetings Date: 31 Dec 2000 16:01:11 EST To Dean: Once again, thanks for keeping us all together, and in line (sometimes) <GGG>. Your efforts are greatly appreciated. To everybody on the list, thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge. From my family to you and yours, we wish you a HAPPY NEW YEAR, CENTURY AND MILLENNIUM (finally)!!! Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: MtMan-List: GUERNSEY FROCKS Date: 31 Dec 2000 15:48:56 -0800 Does anyone have a source for Guernsey Frocks. Hell, it's snowing here, and I may need one. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cannon wheels Date: 31 Dec 2000 16:52:44 EST In a message dated 12/30/0 05:45:07 PM, frankf@centurytel.net writes: <<Dick, you have a website or address for Twigg? I am needing a couple cannon wheels. Thanks, Frank G. Fusco>> Now I have what you asked for last night: Moscow Carriage Co. Bill Twigg, Owner 3240 Lenville Rd. Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208)882-2445 Also - Wind River Wagon & Harness Gary & Tonya Bevers 1210 Major Avenue, Riverton, Wyoming 82501 (307)856-7901 Let me know how you make out. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sinew question Date: 31 Dec 2000 17:23:00 EST In a message dated 12/31/0 08:19:54 AM, dbrown@wavegate.com writes: <<"There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at without result." --Winston Churchill>> I have no buff sinue for you, but I am saving the quote. Great! Thanks Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Introduction Date: 31 Dec 2000 15:56:22 -0800 . And that, Tim, is why we all take an oath not to dwell on one another's foibles and recollections of posts that we make to the list made late at night, under the influence of whiskey, or while we are otherwise out of our minds or bodies. >>Laura Jean, I don't recall taking such a oath. <GG> LP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUERNSEY FROCKS Date: 31 Dec 2000 16:07:49 -0700 Larry, Chance Tiffe posted this site recently. Apparently it is an original source of Guernsey Frocks. Chance said that Clay Landry had received one of the frocks as a gift from one of his children. I looked at all the sweaters and they look pretty modern to me, but maybe the pattern hasn't canged much over the years. I've been thinking of having someone knit me one in natural color woolen yarn. Anyway...there you go. http://www.letricoteur.freeserve.co.uk/ "Teton" Todd D. Glover ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Introduction Date: 31 Dec 2000 18:43:14 -0500 I don't recall taking such a oath. <GG> >>You was drunk, with me, Larry... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Jewell <tjewell@home.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Elk hides Date: 31 Dec 2000 19:50:14 -0500 I have three nice big elk hides that I bought to make some clothing and such out of. The problem is, I bought them before I knew better and they are that wonderful, gold, slick on one side commercial stuff (UGH!). Is there any way to re-tan, dye, or smoke them to make them so that they are acceptable until I can afford/make some brain tan? I checked for info. on braintan.com but didn't see anything. Thanks and Happy New Year to all, I remain... Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hsteven-pepke@webtv.net (H Steven Pepke) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk hides Date: 31 Dec 2000 16:58:50 -0800 (PST) --WebTV-Mail-26699-10204 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Tim, You may wish to do as I have done with my similar hide. Use two, or better yet, three bags of Rit dye remover in your washing machine, and wash the hides through several washing cycles, rinse, then let them spin. Tumble dry on delicate, or low cycle with or without wood blocks or old tennis shoes, and you will find a nice difference in the color and texture of your hides, much closet to brain tan color. I stretched my hide after both washing, and drying, but have heard it isn't necessary. Good luck, and Happy New Year to all. Steve Pepke (Truebear) --WebTV-Mail-26699-10204 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-102-8.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.45) by storefull-103.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:50:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by smtpin-102-8.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) id D0765200; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:50:10 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: hsteven-pepke@webtv.net Received: from lists.xmission.com (lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7]) by smtpin-102-8.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id 206DF1DC; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 14Ct9z-0002eT-00 for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:49:11 -0700 Received: from [24.2.2.66] (helo=mail.rdc1.md.home.com ident=imail) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 14Ct9x-0002eH-00 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:49:09 -0700 Received: from home.com ([24.3.52.244]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010101004907.QHOC10139.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@home.com> for <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:49:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4FD446.6000008@home.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com I have three nice big elk hides that I bought to make some clothing and such out of. The problem is, I bought them before I knew better and they are that wonderful, gold, slick on one side commercial stuff (UGH!). Is there any way to re-tan, dye, or smoke them to make them so that they are acceptable until I can afford/make some brain tan? I checked for info. on braintan.com but didn't see anything. Thanks and Happy New Year to all, I remain... Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --WebTV-Mail-26699-10204-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk hides Date: 31 Dec 2000 20:10:16 EST > The problem is, I bought them before I knew better and > they are that wonderful, gold, slick on one side commercial stuff > (UGH!). Is there any way to re-tan, dye, or smoke them to make them so > that they are acceptable until I can afford/make some brain tan? Tim, You can throw them into the washing machine with several packets of Rit Dye Remover and end up with white hides. You can then smoke them if you want. You can also overdye them if you go with a darker color. Walnut hulls will turn them a nice brown. Once they come out of the washing machine, put them in the dryer on low heat and they will tumble dry. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk hides Date: 31 Dec 2000 19:30:40 -0600 Tim Like Steve Pepke advised, use Rit dye remover. I had three elk hides and four mule deer hides given to me that were commercially tanned and were the color of ear wax. I used all the dye remover that my store had.....5 or 6 boxes. I turned up the thermostat on my water heater to it's highest setting then washed the hides with a tiny amount of plain soap. Then I filled the washer with the hot water and added the dye remover and ran the hides through a wash cycle but kept a close eye (and ear) on the washer and when the wash cycle was finished, but before it started draining the wash water, I stopped the washer and set it to the wash cycle again. I repeated this until the color of the hides was suitable.....use a broom handle to lift then out of the water. After the color suited me I let the washer complete it's entire cycle. I then ran the hides through another entire wash cycle with only the hides in the washer.....no dye remover, no soap, no bleach. (I was warned that bleach would make the hides slimy, but I don't know if this true or not. I took no chances and used no bleach at all.) Steve's method of drying them worked for him and would presumably work for you, too. I simply hung the hides on cotton ropes strung all over my garage. The hides turned out be completely free of the dyes added by the tannery. My elk skin coat obviously isn't brain tan but it also doesn't look like a Tandy Ranger suit. Good Luck Lanney Ratcliff ps: Don't forget to reset you water heater to it's regular temperature. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk hides Date: 31 Dec 2000 18:30:38 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 4:50 PM > I have three nice big elk hides that I bought to make some clothing and > such out of. Tim, I see you have gotten plenty of directions on how to take the color out of your hides. Follow those directions as necessary. One other thing you can do to make them much more serviceable as clothing is to take the scarf skin or epidermis layer off. Brain Tan has no epidermis layer and so it does not shrink and stretch as does top grain commercially tanned leather. Get the hide wet and staple it securely to a flat surface, probably a sheet of plywood, with the hair side up (that is the scarf skin and the part that is removed with the hair in brain tan). It must be very flat and the hides only need to be damp through. Let the hide dry completely. Put a sheet of sheet rock sanding screen in an oscillating (rather than orbiting) sander and very carefully sand off the scarf skin. Do not work in one place too long and do not push too hard. When you get it right the hair side will not be smooth with a grain pattern any more but look like soft velvet. You can now take the color out or dye it or smoke it or all three. With the scarf skin removed the hide will be much more fluffy, just as strong, lighter, and warmer. If you smoke it, it will act much like brain tan. And it will look almost like brain tan. Wear it with the old hair side out. If you choose not to do this and want to make clothing that looks a bit like brain tan, then make the clothing with the flesh side out. It will still be just as cold and clammy as any commercial leather but at least will look more like brain tan. <G> Hope this helps. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Elk hides Date: 31 Dec 2000 21:53:57 EST I had an outfit out of white elk one time. Too heavy. I was glad to sell it off to a guy who knew he needed it. I have improved color on some by using clorox in the washer. There is a "color stripper" that the dye people put out that might be more effective and less caustic. Elk will make some nice pouches if you have a stiffer leather such as latigo as the back. Also, they are great for mocs - especially winter mocs, waterproofed with an inner moc of hair-on buffalo or sheep. R. James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html