ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/hist_text.200011

Internet Message Format | 2000-11-30 | 694KB

From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis
Date: 01 Nov 2000 09:34:18 -0800

I suspect that tipis 20 ft. large would be council lodges not family
dwellings.  The Dakota (Eastern Sioux) had hide lodges of not more than 12
ft. in diameter as standard dwellings.  Most of their transportation was by
canoe or dog as horses in the forests of Minnesota was more impractical than
the other methods.  In the Plains, hide tipis could be larger but generally
one or two women put up a lodge so there is a practical limit there as well.
It really wasn't until the Reservation period and the advent of canvas tipis
that the larger sizes became common. Consider that a larger lodge made it
harder to warm during the winter.  For most practical reasons "less is
more".

Larry Huber.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:56 PM


> I have had as many as 39 adults in an 18' tipi.  Now we were not sleeping
> together mind you, but it was a great closeness.  Also, that could have
been two
> lodges put together as they sometimes did.  There are old drawings of this
and
> photos.
> I could see a large 20 or 22 out of hides.  But it would be a "girl dog"
to set
> up.
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Hallo the List,
> >
> > In Wilson Price Hunt's diary, he mentions the Cheyenne Indians having
large
> > teepees made of buffalo hides and.... "they often hold as many as fifty
> > people". I was of the belief that most buffalo hide teepees were rather
small
> > because of the weight.
> >
> > Just how large of a teepee would be needed to hold 50 people? This may
be a
> > good question for you Linda Holley.... I've seen 15 kids in my 20ft
lodge,
> > and that looked rather full....
> >
> > Ymos,
> > Magpie
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis
Date: 01 Nov 2000 16:42:02 -0800

Canvas, linen or cloth covers for tipis started becoming popular among the
Native
 Americans around 1851.  According to Kurz's  1851 journal, more of the wealthy
men were
 already getting canvas for their lodges.  Treaty annuity payments in the late
1850s and
 1860s, also were accompanied by lots of canvas bed ticking an other fabrics.
As the 19th.
 century wore on, the covers got bigger.  More bolder surface designs were
applied with the
 new industrial paints and dyes that did not wash off or fade.  Looking at old
photos of
 Blackfoot tipis, drawings of the Kiowa, Cheyenne, and Sioux depicts
spectacular  cover
 paintings in their sketch books.

LInda Holley

Larry Huber wrote:

> I suspect that tipis 20 ft. large would be council lodges not family
> dwellings.  The Dakota (Eastern Sioux) had hide lodges of not more than 12
> ft. in diameter as standard dwellings.  Most of their transportation was by
> canoe or dog as horses in the forests of Minnesota was more impractical than
> the other methods.  In the Plains, hide tipis could be larger but generally
> one or two women put up a lodge so there is a practical limit there as well.
> It really wasn't until the Reservation period and the advent of canvas tipis
> that the larger sizes became common. Consider that a larger lodge made it
> harder to warm during the winter.  For most practical reasons "less is
> more".
>
> Larry Huber.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:56 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis
>
> > I have had as many as 39 adults in an 18' tipi.  Now we were not sleeping
> > together mind you, but it was a great closeness.  Also, that could have
> been two
> > lodges put together as they sometimes did.  There are old drawings of this
> and
> > photos.
> > I could see a large 20 or 22 out of hides.  But it would be a "girl dog"
> to set
> > up.
> >
> > [e-mail] wrote:
> >
> > > Hallo the List,
> > >
> > > In Wilson Price Hunt's diary, he mentions the Cheyenne Indians having
> large
> > > teepees made of buffalo hides and.... "they often hold as many as fifty
> > > people". I was of the belief that most buffalo hide teepees were rather
> small
> > > because of the weight.
> > >
> > > Just how large of a teepee would be needed to hold 50 people? This may
> be a
> > > good question for you Linda Holley.... I've seen 15 kids in my 20ft
> lodge,
> > > and that looked rather full....
> > >
> > > Ymos,
> > > Magpie
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis
Date: 01 Nov 2000 20:45:11 EST

In 1967 and again in 1968 at the Sun Dance in Pine Ridge South Dakota I saw
an unusual tipi that would hold great numbers.  It was for a gathering of a
large number of "Sioux of significant station".  Though I didn't count them
the accomodations would easily have been equal or better than what you
described for the Cheyenne.  (Actually, there were Cheyenne at this gathering
as well - came down from the North - they got a long real well with the
Lakota).  What they had done was pitch two tipis together but they set the
base of the poles 'way out so the profile was low.  Not many could stand up
but a whole bunch could sit down.

I have also been to a Shoshone wedding where the lodge cover was unpinned and
roled back about 30 - 40% of the diameter so that those not actually within
the tipi could view inside and were considered part of the whole as if they
had all been within the enclosure.  This may not be close to explanation for
the situation you described in your original question but it is in trivia an
account of "real Indian" occurances when the problem of "too many people -
not enough tipi" has arisen.

And the trivia rolls on . . . . .  My feeling is that most early tipis were
quite small is based on a couple of experiences:  The day we re-buried "Liver
Eatin' Johnston"  we woke up by Old Trail Town in Cody, Wyoming to discover
that when we pitched our tipis the night before (in the dark, of course) we
had camped in an old Crow site.  Tipi rings were scattered all through our
camp and the tipis  looked to be about 12 footers.   East of the original
1825 Rendezvous site and along the face of the bluffs that run north (paralel
to the road to Green River)  I found more tipi circles.  Though they were
most likely Shoshone, they were the same approximate size.  Further info:
These are  both Wyoming sites, right in the rocky part of the Rockies.  I
have destroyed many a tipi peg in these places and can see why the earier
inhabitants just held their tipis down along the edges with rocks.  And
"goody for them" as they left the "fingerprints" of their camps for us to
identify today.

Maybe this will at least be interesting to you.  If not - that's why they
have delete buttons.

Richard James
AMM 79

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
Date: 01 Nov 2000 20:42:23 -0600

Ho the list
I acquired an old copy of "Astoria or Anecdotes of an Enterprise beyond =
the Rocky Mountains" by Washington Irving and have begun reading it.  I =
have a question:
How historically accurate is this book considered to be?  In the book's =
introduction Irving tells of being given access to all of Astor's =
records and using these as a source for the book.  Have serious doubts =
been raised concerning the historical reliability of this work?  The =
book is a good read, one way or another.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff


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From: [e-mail] (Jon Marinetti)
Subject: MtMan-List: Article in local papers (Aux Aliments du Pays)
Date: 01 Nov 2000 21:51:23 -0500 (EST)


Man survives month in California forest

Gorman, Calif. - A 25 year-old man who wandered into the Angeles
National Forest a month ago and got lost has been found alive, police
said.  Sean Kelly, who was reported missing Sept.30 was found by a
hunter Monday [Oct.30] in the Knapp Ranch area of the forest, about 60
miles north of downtown Los Angeles ... Kelly, who was too weak to walk
out [rescuers airlifted him out], said he survived by eating roots and
bugs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
Date: 01 Nov 2000 08:58:23 -0700

Lanney,   It is all second hand info.  ,  as Irving never went West.
Take it with a grain of salt.  From what I understand, Irving had some
political connections that have affected his viewpoints?  I'd have to dig
to find some sources for this opinion, but...  Irving was never in the
West.  hardtack

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
Date: 01 Nov 2000 21:02:22 -0600

Ho the list...again,
After posing the question to the list about the historical authenticity =
of Washington Irving's Astoria, I found a good answer for my own =
question at:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch2/0242.html
Apparently Mr. Edgeley W. Todd, a respected historian, has documented =
Irving's work to be highly historically accurate.
I would still like to hear the opinions of others.
Lanney


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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Article in local papers (Aux Aliments du Pays)
Date: 01 Nov 2000 09:09:39 -0700

This man was on the run from the law, he didn't want to be found, until
he got tired of eating bugs, and was getting too weak to manage.  He also
had Army Ranger training.  "Survival experts on Tuesday agreed that
living off the land is possible, but a tough task in the dry Southern
California chaparral.  With some basic skills and knowledge of local
plant life, one can get by, they say.  And humans can usually live two
weeks or more with no food at all"  Los Angeles Times, Nov. 1.
hardtack

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
Date: 01 Nov 2000 23:46:23 EST

Guess it depends on what is classified as "the West"  Washington Irving wrote
about his adventures in the west in a book entitled "A Tour on the Prairies"
This details his journey with Capt. Jesse Bean and the US Rangers in 1832.  I
read it a few years ago and enjoyed it very much..

Till trails cross
Turtle

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
Date: 02 Nov 2000 01:36:42 EST

Lanney:

True:  Washington Irving was a voyeur.  He happened upon Captain Bonneville's
life.  Sure, he painted a wizardely or is it wizardly (who cares?) tale of
lore.  Fact is that Irving didn't go west, really.  He was an editor.  He met
Bonneville at the dinner table of Jacob Astor.  He happened upon Bonneville
later, spied his manuscripts/notes and took the Bonneville's story to print.
Bonneville.  Was he a spy for the states?  Was he just deplete of a good
story to tell after "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow?"  I don't care.  What I
adore is that Bonneville's words/phrases/descriptions are so phenomenally
beautifully and inspired that I flee to a bookseller to find a pirated copy
of his narration . . . . NOW many years later.

You have a copy in your own collection.

Laura Rugel Glise




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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
Date: 02 Nov 2000 06:37:06 -0800

Dear Laura,

Did you really mean to say......"True:  Washington Irving was a....
"voyeur".........???????
<G>

John


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:36 PM


> Lanney:
>
> True:  Washington Irving was a voyeur.  He happened upon Captain
Bonneville's
> life.  Sure, he painted a wizardely or is it wizardly (who cares?) tale of
> lore.  Fact is that Irving didn't go west, really.  He was an editor.  He
met
> Bonneville at the dinner table of Jacob Astor.  He happened upon
Bonneville
> later, spied his manuscripts/notes and took the Bonneville's story to
print.
> Bonneville.  Was he a spy for the states?  Was he just deplete of a good
> story to tell after "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow?"  I don't care.  What I
> adore is that Bonneville's words/phrases/descriptions are so phenomenally
> beautifully and inspired that I flee to a bookseller to find a pirated
copy
> of his narration . . . . NOW many years later.
>
> You have a copy in your own collection.
>
> Laura Rugel Glise
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
Date: 02 Nov 2000 09:47:48 -0700

Dr. Fred Gowans' opinion was that the books (Bonneville and Astoria) could
be used as general knowledge but because the source documents are lacking
and not footnoted, are considered second hand and so are subjsect to
literary license.

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Ratcliff
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 7:42 PM


Ho the list
I acquired an old copy of "Astoria or Anecdotes of an Enterprise beyond the
Rocky Mountains" by Washington Irving and have begun reading it.  I have a
question:
How historically accurate is this book considered to be?  In the book's
introduction Irving tells of being given access to all of Astor's records
and using these as a source for the book.  Have serious doubts been raised
concerning the historical reliability of this work?  The book is a good
read, one way or another.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis
Date: 02 Nov 2000 17:18:14 EST

Richard....that was very interesting...thanks for the post.

Ymos,
Magpie

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
Date: 02 Nov 2000 19:45:43 EST

John:

Now that I look up the literal (blush) meaning of "voyeur," I would have to
retract my statement that Irving was a voyeur.  I should have said,"I think
he lived vicariously through the adventures of Captain Bonneville."

Laura

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
Date: 02 Nov 2000 20:19:27 -0600

You wrote:
"Dr. Fred Gowans' opinion was that the books (Bonneville and Astoria) =
could
be used as general knowledge but because the source documents are =
lacking
and not footnoted, are considered second hand and so are subjsect to
literary license."

That is generally the opinion I am getting.  Since I never intended to =
use the book as a reference I will simply enjoy reading it with a =
reasonable assurance of it not being simply Irving's imagination or =
speculation.  The first chapters have been entertaining.
Thanks to all who have responded to my original query.
Lanney Ratcliff


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
Date: 02 Nov 2000 22:10:21 EST


In a message dated 11/2/0 05:46:53 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Now that I look up the literal (blush) meaning of "voyeur," I would have to
retract my statement that Irving was a voyeur.  I should have said,"I think
he lived vicariously through the adventures of Captain Bonneville."

Laura
>>

Just observing from the distance I thought your original statement conjured
up all sorts of exercises for the imagination.  . . . maybe voyageur . . .
maybe an onlooker or observer when defined in 1800s rather than the
contemporary useage . . . maybe . . . . but then you got out your dictionary
and ended the game.  Thanks for a little excitement while it lasted.
Richard James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Diary
Date: 03 Nov 2000 01:33:10 EST

The location of the Hunt diary is unknown.  John J. Astor sent it to Paris
around 1820.  There it was translated into French and published.  What
happened  after that, no one knows for sure.  It could still be buried in
some archive in Paris or it could have been returned to Astor, or lost en
route to him.  It is thought to have been used as a reference by Washington
Irving in writing "Astoria," though some say Irving  used the Frecnh edition.
 This info comes from pages IX and X of "The Overland Diary of Wilson Price
Hunt," translated from the French & edited by Hoyt C. Franchere, Oregon Book
Society, Ashland, 1973.

Jim Hardee, Amm #1676

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From: knuckles <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Crow Indians and Mountain Men
Date: 03 Nov 2000 10:23:59 -0500

Can anyone out there point out
any specific cultural borrowings,
(tools, customs, clothing, shelter, food, hunting methods, moral codes, etc.)
made by trappers from the 3 basic Crow tribes?

or any good reference books which specifically relate to the Crow?

Thanks,
Steve Lorenz
[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Crow Indians and Mountain Men
Date: 03 Nov 2000 15:14:03 EST

Steve Jim Beckwourth for one would fit your question. He did live with the
Crows for a while. Married it to the tribe and By his account became a war
chief. At about that same time there was another trapper living with the
crows but for the life of me I can't remember his name right now. As far as
books this is just a few I garbed out of the book case if I look around some
more I know I have more that I have read. Jim Beckwourth By Elinor Wilson.
Memoirs of a White Crow Indian as Told by Thomas B. Marquis. This book is a
bout Thomas H. Leforge how came to live with the Crow after the Civil War but
is still a good read and quit informative on the Crow culture. Some more good
books on the Crow People. Blankets and Moccasins Plenty Coups and His People,
the Crows By Glendolin Damon Wagner and Dr. William A. Allen. Pretty Shield
Medicine woman of the Crows By Frank B. Linderman, Five Indian Tribes of The
Upper Missouri By Edwin Thompson Denig,
  Indians of North America The Crow By Frederick E. Hoxie.
Probably the best book on the Crow people I have is The Crow Indians By
Robert H. Lowie.
                         See ya on the trail
                          Crazy Cyot

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From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Crow Indians and Mountain Men
Date: 03 Nov 2000 14:40:23 -0700

Crazy,

I believe that Edward Rose may be the other trapper you are thinking of.
He also lived with the Absaroka before Beckworths time.

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party, #1784

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From: [e-mail] (Jon Marinetti)
Subject: MtMan-List: Tipis, Thanks Hardtack
Date: 03 Nov 2000 22:54:36 -0500 (EST)

Richard J.,
i too found your post very interesting (what specifically are tipi
rings?).  With your very low AMM# were you closely associated with the
"founding members" of this superb brotherhood?  Thankee kindly.

Hardtack,
thank you for the further clarification & elaboration.  Both local
papers [Detroit] did not mention at all about "running from the law"
[thereby putting an unauthorized and deceptive spin on the story].  puts
it in a whole new light - the truth!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis, Thanks Hardtack
Date: 03 Nov 2000 10:58:54 -0700

JM, Did they mention that the fugitive 'survivalist' attempted suicide
(hooked a hose from his car exhaust to his tent, how it was found when he
was 'discovered missing')?  The man had problems, and wasn't  lost as the
papers infered.  He did have army ranger training, so was a survivalist
to some degree.  See you in the funny papers <g>.  hardtack

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From: "Terrance Luff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: crow indians.ref.
Date: 05 Nov 2000 15:35:30 MST

  ho camp!
the list of books on the crow indians given by the gentleman prior to this
post was a good list. would like to reaffirm the listing of robert h. lowie
The Crow Indian. also i would like to recommend Plenty-coups Chief Of The
Crows by frank b. linderman. /the book gives alot of windows in to the
plains life style of the high plains. HOPE this little tid bit helps.
                                    cavalier ejla
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From: "Bob Schmidt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Gun Banners attack Wal-Mart
Date: 05 Nov 2000 20:03:40 -0000



----------
> From: Whitney Hibbard <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Gun Banners attack Wal-Mart
> Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000 5:32 PM
>
> The Anti-Gun people are putting pressure on Wal-Mart to stop selling guns
> and ammunition. So Wal-Mart is making a tally of all who call in to their
> Customer Service Relation Department at 1-800-925-6278 who are opposed to
> the Anti-Gun pressure on Wal-Mart, Call the above number and Voice your
> opposition now. Be sure to give them your name and address for their
> record of Pro-Gun Customers. Then pass this information on to all those
you
> know to be Pro-Gun people and hunters. Stand up for your and others
rights."
>
> I called Wal-Mart and asked them if they'd take e-mail responses instead
of
> a phone call. They said "Yes". Their web site is www.walmart.com. Click
on
> the Customer Service icon and then click on the Contact Wal-Mart header.
> Fill in the appropriate blanks and send a short message supporting their
> sales
> policy on firearms and ammo. Don't let this source dry up. This is really
up
> to us. If Wal-Mart doesn't get a sufficient response, they'll stop
selling
> firearms and ammo and that would be a real shame. If it seems good to
you,
> perhaps you could send
> this notice to all of the recipients on your list.
> >
> > Wal-Mart is more than willing to resist the anti-gun forces. They'd
just
> like to have some vocal support from legitimate firearms owners.
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>

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From: "larry sherman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: ALERT
Date: 06 Nov 2000 04:33:16 GMT

"Do to anticipated voter turnout being much larger than originally expected,
the polling facillities may not be able to handle the load all at once.
Therefore, Republicans are to vote on Tuesday Nov 7, Democrats on Wednesday
Nov 8. Please pass this message along and help us make sure nobody gets left
out."
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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: woodswalk learning experience
Date: 06 Nov 2000 08:08:29 -0600

Randy
    Your description of your experience with woodswalk challenges was very
interesting. I have never competed in a survival walk of that type, however
I am printing out and keeping your post and will refer to it in the event I
ever do.
    With your explanation and insights into TOFs unique way of thinking, I
believe all who have followed this will be better prepared.
    These days too many of us are conditioned to think only in terms of what
information is presented to us. The need to think 'outside the box' is often
discouraged in todays civilized (?) and socialized society.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: woodswalk learning experience
Date: 06 Nov 2000 09:25:13 -0700


---- Begin Original Message ----
 From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>

Randy
    Your description of your experience with
woodswalk challenges was very
interesting. I have never competed in a survival
walk of that type, however
I am printing out and keeping your post and will
refer to it in the event I
ever do.
    With your explanation and insights into TOFs
unique way of thinking, I
believe all who have followed this will be better
prepared.
    These days too many of us are conditioned to
think only in terms of what
information is presented to us. The need to think
'outside the box' is often
discouraged in todays civilized (?) and
socialized society.
Frank G. Fusco

---- End Original Message ----
Isn't that the truth Frank, the way we are
conditioned to think. Surprisingly this type of
thinking on a woodswalk will really at un-needed
time to completing the coarse.

The remarks that Randy shared are good and should
be kept in mind on the next event of this nature.

Won't recommend this but it was interesting to
watch and probably close to real life if living
in those times.

Several years ago at the Nov. Ft. deChartre
"woodswalk", the last position you would have
before running to freedom (the fort) was
encountering two Indians. Most could shoot the
first target, but would die before taking care of
the second one, as having used up their resources
at that point.

An older gentleman was finishing the coarse
making it to the last position (having had a few
miss fires with his "Dixie Poor Boy"), but still
in the running with his time.  At the last
position he shot the first target (having no
knife or hawk, as they where used on other
targets), he ran full bore at the second Indian
and with a hardy swing of his "Poor Boy" he broke
the target in half along with the wrist of his
gun. Dropping the gun and running as fast as he
could to the finish line. Jack Gardner of TVM was
in our group and was so impressed with the older
man's move to finish the coarse, Jack later made
him a real deal on a TVM flinter, the old boy
came in third on the "woodswalk" and went home
with a new rifle to top it off. Modern thinking
didn't impair him, would it have stopped you ?




Take care,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
_____________________________________________
       HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
________________________________________HRD__
Visit these period camp sites at:
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
http://pages.about.com/conner1/
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
_____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _
_____________________________________________

Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com

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From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: woodswalk learning experience
Date: 06 Nov 2000 09:38:16 -0700

<html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body   ><div align='left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT><BR>
Sorry, in a hurry on last message, should have<BR>
written:<BR>
<BR>
---- Begin Original Message ----<BR>
 From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]><BR>
<BR>
Isn't that the truth Frank, the way we are<BR>
conditioned to think. Surprisingly this type of<BR>
thinking on a woodswalk will really at un-needed<BR>
time to completing the coarse.<BR>
<BR>
---- End Original Message ----<BR>
<BR>
Isn't that the truth Frank, the way we are<BR>
conditioned to think. Surprisingly this type of<BR>
thinking on a woodswalk will really ADD un-needed<BR>
time to completing the coarse.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks -<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Take care, <BR>
Barry "Buck" Conner <BR>
Resource & Documentation for:<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
       HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
________________________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ <BR>
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ <BR>
_____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
 </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Gun Banners attack Wal-Mart
Date: 06 Nov 2000 12:18:19 EST

I have tried five different times to sent this message to Wall Mart.  I keep
getting the message that the "send to" address is non-functioning.  I am on
AOL.  Has anyone else had this problem?  Any suggestions?  Note: the address
they say is not working is the one generated by "clicking here and clicking
there" as directed.

Richard James

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From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: woodswalk learning experience
Date: 06 Nov 2000 14:12:10 -0600

Frank,

The term you used, to think outside the box, is exactly what you need to do
when participating in a survival match. Or at least you need to consider all
your possible alternatives. Capt. L said it best when he said something like
"you can do anything that is not forbidden to do." Sometimes you amaze
yourself when that light bulb goes off over your head and you do something
that earns those needed points.

It is normal for some people to whine and cry about the rules and how they
are scored when they participate in their first couple of survival matches.
I told TOF that it would happen. After going on several matches most people
get into the spirit of these matches and find they really enjoy them.

I like survivals because they are a shooting game, a mind game and sometimes
a trivia game. I have developed the "thinking outside the box" and I am big
on history and researching things past so always do good on the time period
trivia questions both of which compensates for any lack of accuracy when
shooting because of my failing  eyesight.

So many people are afraid to go on one of these matches because they don't
have the right gear or can't shoot good enough, etc. The name of this game
is not winning, but rather to have an enjoyable experience and spend some
time out with your favorite gun.

Randy


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 8:08 AM


> Randy
>     Your description of your experience with woodswalk challenges was very
> interesting. I have never competed in a survival walk of that type,
however
> I am printing out and keeping your post and will refer to it in the event
I
> ever do.
>     With your explanation and insights into TOFs unique way of thinking, I
> believe all who have followed this will be better prepared.
>     These days too many of us are conditioned to think only in terms of
what
> information is presented to us. The need to think 'outside the box' is
often
> discouraged in todays civilized (?) and socialized society.
> Frank G. Fusco
> Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: .50 or .54 caliber? Which is better to start with?
Date: 06 Nov 2000 18:43:14 EST

I am about to purchase a flintlick trade rifle from Lyman.  I was wondering
if anyone could tell whether the .50 or .54 is the better choice.  Does one
have more problems or less problems?  This is my first BP arm and I would
like to make a pretty good choice.  Is one caliber more Period Correct for
the fur trade than another?  ANY input anyone has would be really helpful!

Thanks,
-C.Kent

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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 or .54 caliber? Which is better to start with?
Date: 06 Nov 2000 06:18:43 -0700

Hi C Kent,   I don't know about that particular rifle, but for bigger
game- a .54 would have some advantage.  A .50 would be slightly cheaper
to shoot, for range shooting.  I've had a .54, but use a .50 Dixie
Poorboy, flinter as my rifled shooter now.  If the barrel stock is the
same thickness, the .54 will be less barrel heavy.  I have a T.C. .45,
that has the same barrel stock as the .36 in this same model.  I got the
45 so it would be lighter.  Hope this helps some.   hardtack

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From: Possum Hunter <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Gun Banners attack Wal-Mart
Date: 06 Nov 2000 16:25:34 -0800 (PST)

I went to my local Wal-Mart today. They didn't know
anything about this. The Manager said it was probably
an urban legend.
Possum

=====
"No man can truly know Christ except he follow him in life" (Testimony of Anabaptist leader Hans Denk)
Genesis 2:17 "Do not eat of the fruit of the technology that makes edible the inedible." (Translation by Ray Audette)
"Dein O Herr, ist das Reich allein, Und auch die Macht zu sammen, Wir loben dich in der gemein, Und danken deinem namen, Und bitten dich aus hersens grund, Wollst bey uns seyn zu dieser Stund, Durch Jesum Christum. Amen." (Das 131. Lied - Ausbund)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

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From: "Frank V. Rago" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 or .54 caliber? Which is better to start with?
Date: 06 Nov 2000 19:51:44 -0500

C.,

I have a 50 and am very happy with it.

FVR


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 6:43 PM


> I am about to purchase a flintlick trade rifle from Lyman.  I was
wondering
> if anyone could tell whether the .50 or .54 is the better choice.  Does
one
> have more problems or less problems?  This is my first BP arm and I would
> like to make a pretty good choice.  Is one caliber more Period Correct for
> the fur trade than another?  ANY input anyone has would be really helpful!
>
> Thanks,
> -C.Kent
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 or .54 caliber? Which is better to start with?
Date: 06 Nov 2000 19:50:46 EST

C.Kent both are good caliber's the .50 being lighter has the better
ballistics. When hunting large game such as Elk, Moose and Bear I like the
.54 the ball being heavier it has more penetration and does more damage and
has more stopping power. Put your self in the Moccasins of the trapper who
would be facing Buffalo and Grizz which one would you chose?
                                       Crazy Cyot

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From: "Frank V. Rago" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 or .54 caliber? Which is better to start with?
Date: 06 Nov 2000 20:18:58 -0500

If that was the case then it would def. be a .62 cal. smoothbore.

FVR


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 7:50 PM


> C.Kent both are good caliber's the .50 being lighter has the better
> ballistics. When hunting large game such as Elk, Moose and Bear I like the
> .54 the ball being heavier it has more penetration and does more damage
and
> has more stopping power. Put your self in the Moccasins of the trapper who
> would be facing Buffalo and Grizz which one would you chose?
>                                        Crazy Cyot
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Gun Banners attack Wal-Mart
Date: 06 Nov 2000 20:23:02 -0500

The Gun Counter person at the Wal-Mart in Lewisberg, WV assured me it WAS
true and that they had been having problems.  I went to their web site and
sent them an email.

Ad Miller

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 7:25 PM


> I went to my local Wal-Mart today. They didn't know
> anything about this. The Manager said it was probably
> an urban legend.
> Possum
>
> =====
> "No man can truly know Christ except he follow him in life" (Testimony of
Anabaptist leader Hans Denk)
> Genesis 2:17 "Do not eat of the fruit of the technology that makes edible
the inedible." (Translation by Ray Audette)
> "Dein O Herr, ist das Reich allein, Und auch die Macht zu sammen, Wir
loben dich in der gemein, Und danken deinem namen, Und bitten dich aus
hersens grund, Wollst bey uns seyn zu dieser Stund, Durch Jesum Christum.
Amen." (Das 131. Lied - Ausbund)
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 06 Nov 2000 19:25:11 -0600

Friends,
Does any one out there sell repro Shaker stoves?  What is the company,
phone number, website?   Does anyone out there know of anyone willing to
sell a repro shaker stove?  What about small two-burner box stoves?  I need
a small wood burner to heat a 12' pyramid tent that's close to period.  No
butane or propane, please.

Suggestions appreciated.

Thanks,
HBC

**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Gun Banners attack Wal-Mart
Date: 06 Nov 2000 18:37:22 -0800


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 5:23 PM


> The Gun Counter person at the Wal-Mart in Lewisberg, WV assured me it WAS
> true and that they had been having problems.  I went to their web site and
> sent them an email.
>
> Ad Miller


This story and request for cards and letters to Walmart went around the net
several months back and many of us may have sent an email or called Walmart
to give them our support for continuing to handle firearms. I did.

Recently I received a reply from Walmart saying that they thanked me for my
input and assured me that they had no intention of modifying or
discontinuing their full line of shooters supplies and firearms. I must have
emptied my delete file because I can no longer access their reply.

Now I am not saying that it is inappropriate to continue to tell Walmart and
every other firearms retailer that we appreciate their courage in continuing
to offer the law abiding citizen and sportsman a retail outlet of quality
sporting goods including firearms and the supplies and equipment to use
them. Continue to do so.

May I suggest that we do this amongst ourselves and reserve this list for
discussions of history and closely related topics? Thank you. I remain....

Respectfully
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 06 Nov 2000 23:51:16 -0600

Henry,

Peter and Deborah Marques @ Tentsmiths has a recommendation for a small
stove suitable for use in a tent.  When it comes to tents nobody knows more
than Peter.

http://www.tentsmiths.com/

John...


At 07:25 PM 11/6/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Friends,
>Does any one out there sell repro Shaker stoves?  What is the company,
>phone number, website?   Does anyone out there know of anyone willing to
>sell a repro shaker stove?  What about small two-burner box stoves?  I need
>a small wood burner to heat a 12' pyramid tent that's close to period.  No
>butane or propane, please.
>
>Suggestions appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>HBC

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch.  Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

Benjamin Franklin 1759


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 07 Nov 2000 02:07:13 EST

Henry I just want to warn you about putting a stove in a pyramid tent. They
have one fire hazard built in to them. It is the flap that is sewn on to the
tent to cover the hole for the stove pipe. When in use with a stove this flap
is rolled and tied up out of the way but on some if not most of these tents
this roll is very close to the stove pipe. You want to check and make sure
this is not the case with yours. I burned a big hole in the side of a 10
footer once because of this and have seen a couple others burn down over the
years because of it. If this is the case with yours there are two ways you
can fix it. If you will always be using a stove in it just cut the flap off
or take it to a tent smith and have them move the flap so it comes from the
bottom and have a short flap on top that it can slip under and tie in place
this will give you the water shed you need but when using the stove the flap
will be hanging down below the pipe not rolled up above the stove pipe.
                                                Crazy Cyot

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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: eyesight
Date: 07 Nov 2000 10:39:47 -0500


     Harddog

     You`ve mentioned several time eyesight problems. I would like to tell
you of a coworkers solution to eye and shooting troubles. This fellow had
special glasses made. At the bottom of the lense was his regular bifocal
script. In the middle was his normal distance script. At the top was another
bifocal "type" of grind that was ground to the distance that the clays would
fly from. He said he looked thru the bottom of the lens at the barrel of his
scatter gun, then raise his eyeballs up to see the clays flying. Not having
to raise his whole head up. Said it worked for him.

     He called these glasses "electricans glasses" as he was an electrican
he had another pair of glasses to work in. They had his normal bifocal grind
at bottom and at the top. When working above his head he just raised his
eye`s and didn`t have to cock his head back at an uncomfortable angle.

     Hope you can come up with your own cure for shooting.


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 07 Nov 2000 10:52:23 -0800

While we are talking about stoves in tents, let me warn all that it is never
safe to use a charcoal brazier in a tent. They produce Carbon Monoxide which
is an odorless gas that is absorbed by the hemoglobin in the blood and
restricts it's ability to carry oxygen. We have many third world emigrants
die each year in our area because they are used to using such devices to
cook and heat with. Whole families. A good working wood stove vented to the
outside as Crazy Cyot is talking about is relatively safe. Braziers are not!
I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 11:07 PM


> Henry I just want to warn you about putting a stove in a pyramid tent.
They
> have one fire hazard built in to them. It is the flap that is sewn on to
the
> tent to cover the hole for the stove pipe. When in use with a stove this
flap
> is rolled and tied up out of the way but on some if not most of these
tents
> this roll is very close to the stove pipe. You want to check and make sure
> this is not the case with yours. I burned a big hole in the side of a 10
> footer once because of this and have seen a couple others burn down over
the
> years because of it. If this is the case with yours there are two ways you
> can fix it. If you will always be using a stove in it just cut the flap
off
> or take it to a tent smith and have them move the flap so it comes from
the
> bottom and have a short flap on top that it can slip under and tie in
place
> this will give you the water shed you need but when using the stove the
flap
> will be hanging down below the pipe not rolled up above the stove pipe.
>                                                 Crazy Cyot
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Braziers
Date: 07 Nov 2000 14:21:45 -0600

Capt. L,

There was a death at the NMLRA Eastern Rendezvoous this year when a Father
and Son set up a brazier inside their tent for warmth. The Father died and
the Son was still alive and was airlifted out of the rendezvous.

Harddog


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braziers
Date: 07 Nov 2000 13:01:05 -0800

> There was a death at the NMLRA Eastern Rendezvoous this year when a Father
> and Son set up a brazier inside their tent for warmth. The Father died and
> the Son was still alive and was airlifted out of the rendezvous.

Harddog,

I'm saddened to hear this. In the spirit that it never happens again (and
certainly not trying to be cute), "I rest my case". I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braziers
Date: 07 Nov 2000 16:48:44 EST

Guys,

A good rule of thumb is to keep combustion OUT of the tent...regardless of
how careful one is an accident will sooner or later happen...In the case of a
kitchen tent- be sure ALL flames and coals are removed!  A few extra blankets
are worth the trouble and expense!! What is that when compared to a person's
health or the value of their life!!!
I have worked with Boy Scouts with all manner of tents and shelters and the
one hard and fast rule is no flames or coals inside the tent or shelter!  No
injuries yet!!!

Happy camping and shooting!
-C.Kent

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From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Braziers
Date: 07 Nov 2000 16:48:53 -0700


---- Begin Original Message ----
 From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
> There was a death at the NMLRA Eastern
Rendezvoous this year when a Father
> and Son set up a brazier inside their tent for
warmth. The Father died and
> the Son was still alive and was airlifted out
of the rendezvous.

Harddog,

I'm saddened to hear this. In the spirit that it
never happens again (and
certainly not trying to be cute), "I rest my
case". I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

---- End Original Message ----

Roger,

A few years ago while hunting in a Jan elk season
in Northern Colorado, using a Kerosune heater,
everything was fine until one night we had a mild
ice storm, with it hitting the warm canvas it
froze - sealing the wall tent. I woke up with one
bad headache and sick in my stomach, when trying
to get outside - is when I realized what had
happened. The five of us where sick for several
days, and real lucky I woke up or we may not have
had a second chance.




Take care,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
_____________________________________________
       HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
________________________________________HRD__
Visit these period camp sites at:
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
http://pages.about.com/conner1/
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
_____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _
_____________________________________________

Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Braziers
Date: 07 Nov 2000 16:18:07 -0800

Thanks Buck.

If only we had a wider audience. Capt. L


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 3:48 PM


>
> ---- Begin Original Message ----
>  From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
> > There was a death at the NMLRA Eastern
> Rendezvoous this year when a Father
> > and Son set up a brazier inside their tent for
> warmth. The Father died and
> > the Son was still alive and was airlifted out
> of the rendezvous.
>
> Harddog,
>
> I'm saddened to hear this. In the spirit that it
> never happens again (and
> certainly not trying to be cute), "I rest my
> case". I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> ---- End Original Message ----
>
> Roger,
>
> A few years ago while hunting in a Jan elk season
> in Northern Colorado, using a Kerosune heater,
> everything was fine until one night we had a mild
> ice storm, with it hitting the warm canvas it
> froze - sealing the wall tent. I woke up with one
> bad headache and sick in my stomach, when trying
> to get outside - is when I realized what had
> happened. The five of us where sick for several
> days, and real lucky I woke up or we may not have
> had a second chance.
>
>
>
>
> Take care,
> Barry "Buck" Conner
> Resource & Documentation for:
> _____________________________________________
>        HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
> ________________________________________HRD__
> Visit these period camp sites at:
> http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
> http://pages.about.com/conner1/
> http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
> _____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _
> _____________________________________________
>
> Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 07 Nov 2000 20:43:45 -0500

At the Eastern this year, we had a father die and a son in critical
condition after usin a brazier in their tent to try and heat it.

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Daniel L. Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: woodswalk learning experience
Date: 07 Nov 2000 19:38:50 -0700

<html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body   ><div align='left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT><BR>
---- Begin Original Message ----<BR>
 From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]><BR>
<BR>
Several years ago at the Nov. Ft. deChartre<BR>
"woodswalk",..........<BR>
At the last position he shot the first target <BR>
(having no knife or hawk, as they where used on <BR>
other targets), he ran full bore .......<BR>
Jack Gardner of TVM was in our group and was so <BR>
impressed with the older man's move to finish the <BR>
coarse, Jack later made him a real deal on a TVM <BR>
flinter,....<BR>
 <BR>
Barry "Buck" Conner <BR>
---- End Original Message ----<BR>
<BR>
You left out the best part, Jack took the broken <BR>
gun in trade, Freddie Harris restocked it and <BR>
they gave it away as a prize the next year at <BR>
Bridger. Jack and Freddie never let anything go <BR>
to waste, they would have been real good at their <BR>
trade a 150 years ago in St. Louis.<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT> <BR>
  <BR>
Later, <BR>
<BR>
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR>
Research & Documentation for: <BR>
   ______________________________________________ <BR>
         HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT <BR>
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". <BR>
   ________________________________________HRD__ <BR>
<BR>
Visit the HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ <BR>
   ______________________________________________ </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Daniel L. Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Braziers
Date: 07 Nov 2000 19:43:19 -0700


---- Begin Original Message ----
 From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
---- End Original Message ----
Roger,
The five of us where sick for several  days, and
real lucky I woke up or we may not have had a
second chance.......

Take care,
Barry "Buck" Conner
---- End Original Message ----

Boy, was I glad Buck got sick and woke up, I was
one of the five friends, Amend. Like that old
bumper sticker "Stuff Happens".





Later,

Daniel L. "Concho" Smith
Research & Documentation for:
   ______________________________________________
         HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers".
   ________________________________________HRD__

Visit the HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
   ______________________________________________
Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Braziers
Date: 07 Nov 2000 19:13:46 -0800

You guys mind if I cut and paste these posts and send them out to mlml as a
warning to a larger audience? Capt. L

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 6:43 PM


>
> ---- Begin Original Message ----
>  From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
> ---- End Original Message ----
> Roger,
> The five of us where sick for several  days, and
> real lucky I woke up or we may not have had a
> second chance.......
>
> Take care,
> Barry "Buck" Conner
> ---- End Original Message ----
>
> Boy, was I glad Buck got sick and woke up, I was
> one of the five friends, Amend. Like that old
> bumper sticker "Stuff Happens".
>
>
>
>
>
> Later,
>
> Daniel L. "Concho" Smith
> Research & Documentation for:
>    ______________________________________________
>          HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
> "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers".
>    ________________________________________HRD__
>
> Visit the HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
>    ______________________________________________
> Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Braziers
Date: 08 Nov 2000 05:36:42 -0700

<html><head><meta Name=3D'keywords' Content=3D'commtouch, pronto, mail, =
free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communicatio=
ns, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></he=
ad><body   ><div align=3D'left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT><BR=
>
---- Begin Original Message ----<BR>
 From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]><BR>
Sent: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:13:46 -0800<BR>
<BR>
You guys mind if I cut and paste these posts and <BR>
send them out to mlml as a<BR>
warning to a larger audience? Capt. L<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message -----<BR>
 From: "Daniel L. Smith" <[e-mail]><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 6:43 PM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> ---- Begin Original Message ----<BR>
> =A0From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]><BR>
> ---- End Original Message ----<BR>
> Roger,<BR>
> The five of us where sick for several =A0days, <BR>
and<BR>
> real lucky I woke up or we may not have had a<BR>
> second chance.......<BR>
><BR>
> Take care,<BR>
> Barry "Buck" Conner<BR>
> ---- End Original Message ----<BR>
><BR>
> Boy, was I glad Buck got sick and woke up, I <BR>
was<BR>
> one of the five friends, Amen. Like that old<BR>
> bumper sticker "Stuff Happens".<BR>
><BR>
> Later,<BR>
><BR>
> Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR>
<BR>
---- End Original Message ----<BR>
<BR>
That's fine Capt.<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=3Dleft><TT>Take care, <BR>
Barry "Buck" Conner <BR>
Resource & Documentation for:<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
       HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
________________________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ <BR>
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ <BR>
_____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
 </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.co=
m </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Shaker stoves
Date: 08 Nov 2000 10:56:25 -0600

That's true, CC, and others.  My tent (a Panther) doesn't seem to have that
problem.  When the flap is in it's rolled position (I might add that it
must be rolled tight and well secured with good knots, it clears the
stovepipe hole with plenty of room to allow for the slant of the tent.
Likewise, I wouldn't want a stove that sits too high for fear of coming in
contact with the tent fabric, especially on windy days when the tent canvas
tends to move a bit.

The stove should also be size-proportional to the space of the tent.  Get
one too big and you'll have an oven, not a shelter, not to mention loss of
valuable space.

That was a good point.

As for braziers, let's use common sense.  Unvented fires are always a bad
idea.  If the smoke doesn't get you, the CO will.

HBC


>Henry I just want to warn you about putting a stove in a pyramid tent. They
>have one fire hazard built in to them. It is the flap that is sewn on to the
>tent to cover the hole for the stove pipe. When in use with a stove this flap
>is rolled and tied up out of the way but on some if not most of these tents
>this roll is very close to the stove pipe. You want to check and make sure
>this is not the case with yours. I burned a big hole in the side of a 10
>footer once because of this and have seen a couple others burn down over the
>years because of it. If this is the case with yours there are two ways you
>can fix it. If you will always be using a stove in it just cut the flap off
>or take it to a tent smith and have them move the flap so it comes from the
>bottom and have a short flap on top that it can slip under and tie in place
>this will give you the water shed you need but when using the stove the flap
>will be hanging down below the pipe not rolled up above the stove pipe.
>                                                Crazy Cyot
>

**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Daniel L. Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.
Date: 08 Nov 2000 10:50:25 -0700

<html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body   ><div align='left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT>Just received this from Buck, possible threat to<BR>
a neat site, read on.<BR>
<BR>
Denver News Wednesday,Nov.8,2000 <BR>
<BR>
Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened. <BR>
<BR>
by Jim Robbins <BR>
________________________________ <BR>
The New York Times. <BR>
<BR>
  POMPEY'S PILLAR, Mont. - On the side of a<BR>
sandstone bluff here, the <BR>
explorer William Clark carved his first initial<BR>
and last name and July 25,1806, <BR>
the only place along the journey of several<BR>
thousand miles where physical <BR>
evidence of the Lewis & Clark expedition remains. <BR>
  Now as the West prepares for an influx of<BR>
tourists who will trace the travels <BR>
of Lewis & Clark during the bicentennial, a<BR>
grain-exporting company is building <BR>
a high-speed grain-loading plant in the shadow of<BR>
the National Historic Landmark. <BR>
The construction has raised the ire of<BR>
historians, nationally and locally, who <BR>
say the looming presence of four 150-foot<BR>
concrete cylinders will ruin the <BR>
ambiance of the isolated site. <BR>
  "It would be a shame if those silos go<BR>
through," said Dayton Duncan, writer of <BR>
Out West, a 1987 book on the Lewis & Clark and,<BR>
with Ken Burns, writer and <BR>
co-producer of the PBS documentary on the two<BR>
men. The pillar, Duncan said, <BR>
contains more than the marks left by Clark. <BR>
  "Not only did Clark sign it, but some of<BR>
Custer's men had a skirmish with <BR>
Sitting Bull, and their names are there, and<BR>
there are Indian names." <BR>
  The plant is one of seven high-speed<BR>
grain-loading plants being built in Montana <BR>
by United Harvest of Portland, Ore. Construction<BR>
began in August, but it was <BR>
stopped in September after it was discovered that<BR>
the company has never received <BR>
an air quality permit from the state. The<BR>
Pompey's Pillar Historical Association, <BR>
a Montana non-profit group, appealed the permit<BR>
in October, and state officials <BR>
say construction will not resume until hearings<BR>
have been held. <BR>
  The pillar is on the banks of the Yellowstone<BR>
River, on 473 acres owned by the <BR>
Bureau of Land Management, about 30 miles east of<BR>
Billings, Montana's largest city, <BR>
and is surrounded by farmland and pastures.<BR>
Opponents of the grain elevator say <BR>
the landscape has changed little since the 19th<BR>
century. "It doesn't take much <BR>
imagination with those vistas to imagine yourself<BR>
as William Clark or Custer" <BR>
Duncan said. <BR>
  "We spent a lot of time evaluating sites and<BR>
after several months this is the <BR>
only one that presented itself," said Chris<BR>
Davis, business development manager <BR>
for United Harvest. "We don't feel a facility<BR>
like this would be out of place." <BR>
Davis pointed out that the elevators would be<BR>
just 100 yards from Interstate 90. <BR>
  Dan Krum of Worden, Mont., chairman of the<BR>
Pompey's Pillar Historical Association, <BR>
said the fight has sparked interest from Lewis &<BR>
Clark aficionados around the <BR>
country and some have sent donations as large as<BR>
$500.00, anticipating a long battle. <BR>
  "They say they want to be good neighbors," Krum<BR>
said of United Harvest. "But <BR>
what they've done so far doesn't point to that." <BR>
____________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Later, <BR>
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR>
Research & Documentation for: <BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
________________________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
_____________________________________________ </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: woodswalk learning experience
Date: 08 Nov 2000 18:41:36 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C049B3.863A1160
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Frank Fusco wrote:
=20
Randy
    Your description of your experience with woodswalk challenges was =
very
interesting. I have never competed in a survival walk of that type, =
however
I am printing out and keeping your post and will refer to it in the =
event I
ever do.
   =20

How did I miss the original post?  I can't find it in archive either.  =
If it was actually off another list will someone post it here for the =
rest of us.

Thank You
WY

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C049B3.863A1160
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank Fusco wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Randy<BR>    Your =
description of=20
your experience with woodswalk challenges was very<BR>interesting. I =
have never=20
competed in a survival walk of that type, however<BR>I am printing out =
and=20
keeping your post and will refer to it in the event I<BR>ever=20
do.<BR>    </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>How did I miss the original post?  =

I can't find it in archive either.  If it was actually off =
another=20
list will someone post it here for the rest of us.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank You</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C049B3.863A1160--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.
Date: 08 Nov 2000 18:39:34 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C049B3.3D624D40
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Several of us "Lewis and Clark" types--Jim Ronda, Steve Ambrose, Dayton =
Duncan, Gary Moulton, and myself--have called, e-mailed, written hard =
copy letters to both United Harvest and the Montana Department of =
Environment. We've also, as indicated by the article from the Denver =
paper, talked to newspaper reporters. So far the only response I've =
received was from the president of the company who said, in effect, "we =
don't think this will harm the site and we're determined to go ahead =
with it because we've made promises to our customers." Too bad that a =
wonderful historical site will be marred by such a development when =
there are so many other places along the mainline of the railroad that =
would work just as well. Montana's a big state! If any of you have =
connections with either United Harvest or state government in Montana: =
WRITE or CALL to register your protest.

John Allen
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Daniel L. Smith=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 10:50 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.


      Just received this from Buck, possible threat to
      a neat site, read on.
      --------------------------------------------

      Denver News Wednesday,Nov.8,2000=20

      Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.=20

      by Jim Robbins=20
      ________________________________=20
      The New York Times.=20

       POMPEY'S PILLAR, Mont. - On the side of a
      sandstone bluff here, the=20
      explorer William Clark carved his first initial
      and last name and July 25,1806,=20
      the only place along the journey of several
      thousand miles where physical=20
      evidence of the Lewis & Clark expedition remains.=20
       Now as the West prepares for an influx of
      tourists who will trace the travels=20
      of Lewis & Clark during the bicentennial, a
      grain-exporting company is building=20
      a high-speed grain-loading plant in the shadow of
      the National Historic Landmark.=20
      The construction has raised the ire of
      historians, nationally and locally, who=20
      say the looming presence of four 150-foot
      concrete cylinders will ruin the=20
      ambiance of the isolated site.=20
       "It would be a shame if those silos go
      through," said Dayton Duncan, writer of=20
      Out West, a 1987 book on the Lewis & Clark and,
      with Ken Burns, writer and=20
      co-producer of the PBS documentary on the two
      men. The pillar, Duncan said,=20
      contains more than the marks left by Clark.=20
       "Not only did Clark sign it, but some of
      Custer's men had a skirmish with=20
      Sitting Bull, and their names are there, and
      there are Indian names."=20
       The plant is one of seven high-speed
      grain-loading plants being built in Montana=20
      by United Harvest of Portland, Ore. Construction
      began in August, but it was=20
      stopped in September after it was discovered that
      the company has never received=20
      an air quality permit from the state. The
      Pompey's Pillar Historical Association,=20
      a Montana non-profit group, appealed the permit
      in October, and state officials=20
      say construction will not resume until hearings
      have been held.=20
       The pillar is on the banks of the Yellowstone
      River, on 473 acres owned by the=20
      Bureau of Land Management, about 30 miles east of
      Billings, Montana's largest city,=20
      and is surrounded by farmland and pastures.
      Opponents of the grain elevator say=20
      the landscape has changed little since the 19th
      century. "It doesn't take much=20
      imagination with those vistas to imagine yourself
      as William Clark or Custer"=20
      Duncan said.=20
       "We spent a lot of time evaluating sites and
      after several months this is the=20
      only one that presented itself," said Chris
      Davis, business development manager=20
      for United Harvest. "We don't feel a facility
      like this would be out of place."=20
      Davis pointed out that the elevators would be
      just 100 yards from Interstate 90.=20
       Dan Krum of Worden, Mont., chairman of the
      Pompey's Pillar Historical Association,=20
      said the fight has sparked interest from Lewis &
      Clark aficionados around the=20
      country and some have sent donations as large as
      $500.00, anticipating a long battle.=20
       "They say they want to be good neighbors," Krum
      said of United Harvest. "But=20
      what they've done so far doesn't point to that."=20
      ____________________________________________________________=20








      Later,=20
      Daniel L. "Concho" Smith
      Research & Documentation for:=20
      _____________________________________________=20
      HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT =20
      ________________________________________HRD__=20
      Visit these period camp sites at:=20
      http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
      http://pages.about.com/conner1/
      http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
      _____________________________________________=20
      Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com=20

  ---------------------- hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C049B3.3D624D40
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META=20
content=3D"commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web =
based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, =
advertising banners, e-mail, free software"=20
name=3Dkeywords>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4207.2601" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Several of us "Lewis and Clark" types--Jim Ronda, =
Steve=20
Ambrose, Dayton Duncan, Gary Moulton, and myself--have called, e-mailed, =
written=20
hard copy letters to both United Harvest and the Montana Department of=20
Environment. We've also, as indicated by the article from the Denver =
paper,=20
talked to newspaper reporters. So far the only response I've received =
was from=20
the president of the company who said, in effect, "we don't think this =
will harm=20
the site and we're determined to go ahead with it because we've made =
promises to=20
our customers." Too bad that a wonderful historical site will be marred =
by such=20
a development when there are so many other places along the mainline of =
the=20
railroad that would work just as well. Montana's a big state! If any of =
you have=20
connections with either United Harvest or state government in Montana: =
WRITE or=20
CALL to register your protest.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>John Allen</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Daniel =
L. Smith</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 08, =
2000 10:50=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Lewis =
& Clark=20
  Memento Threatened.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D+0>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE><TT>Just received this from Buck, possible threat =
to<BR>a neat=20
      site, read=20
      on.<BR>--------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Denver =
News=20
      Wednesday,Nov.8,2000 <BR><BR>Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened. =

      <BR><BR>by Jim Robbins <BR>________________________________ =
<BR>The New=20
      York Times. <BR><BR> POMPEY'S PILLAR, Mont. - On the side of=20
      a<BR>sandstone bluff here, the <BR>explorer William Clark carved =
his first=20
      initial<BR>and last name and July 25,1806, <BR>the only place =
along the=20
      journey of several<BR>thousand miles where physical <BR>evidence =
of the=20
      Lewis & Clark expedition remains. <BR> Now as the West =
prepares=20
      for an influx of<BR>tourists who will trace the travels <BR>of =
Lewis &=20
      Clark during the bicentennial, a<BR>grain-exporting company is =
building=20
      <BR>a high-speed grain-loading plant in the shadow of<BR>the =
National=20
      Historic Landmark. <BR>The construction has raised the ire=20
      of<BR>historians, nationally and locally, who <BR>say the looming =
presence=20
      of four 150-foot<BR>concrete cylinders will ruin the <BR>ambiance =
of the=20
      isolated site. <BR> "It would be a shame if those silos=20
      go<BR>through," said Dayton Duncan, writer of <BR>Out West, a 1987 =
book on=20
      the Lewis & Clark and,<BR>with Ken Burns, writer and =
<BR>co-producer=20
      of the PBS documentary on the two<BR>men. The pillar, Duncan said, =

      <BR>contains more than the marks left by Clark. <BR> "Not =
only did=20
      Clark sign it, but some of<BR>Custer's men had a skirmish with =
<BR>Sitting=20
      Bull, and their names are there, and<BR>there are Indian names."=20
      <BR> The plant is one of seven high-speed<BR>grain-loading =
plants=20
      being built in Montana <BR>by United Harvest of Portland, Ore.=20
      Construction<BR>began in August, but it was <BR>stopped in =
September after=20
      it was discovered that<BR>the company has never received <BR>an =
air=20
      quality permit from the state. The<BR>Pompey's Pillar Historical=20
      Association, <BR>a Montana non-profit group, appealed the =
permit<BR>in=20
      October, and state officials <BR>say construction will not resume =
until=20
      hearings<BR>have been held. <BR> The pillar is on the banks =
of the=20
      Yellowstone<BR>River, on 473 acres owned by the <BR>Bureau of Land =

      Management, about 30 miles east of<BR>Billings, Montana's largest =
city,=20
      <BR>and is surrounded by farmland and pastures.<BR>Opponents of =
the grain=20
      elevator say <BR>the landscape has changed little since the=20
      19th<BR>century. "It doesn't take much <BR>imagination with those =
vistas=20
      to imagine yourself<BR>as William Clark or Custer" <BR>Duncan =
said.=20
      <BR> "We spent a lot of time evaluating sites and<BR>after =
several=20
      months this is the <BR>only one that presented itself," said=20
      Chris<BR>Davis, business development manager <BR>for United =
Harvest. "We=20
      don't feel a facility<BR>like this would be out of place." =
<BR>Davis=20
      pointed out that the elevators would be<BR>just 100 yards from =
Interstate=20
      90. <BR> Dan Krum of Worden, Mont., chairman of =
the<BR>Pompey's=20
      Pillar Historical Association, <BR>said the fight has sparked =
interest=20
      from Lewis &<BR>Clark aficionados around the <BR>country and =
some have=20
      sent donations as large as<BR>$500.00, anticipating a long battle. =

      <BR> "They say they want to be good neighbors," Krum<BR>said =
of=20
      United Harvest. "But <BR>what they've done so far doesn't point to =
that."=20
      <BR>____________________________________________________________=20
      <BR><BR></TT><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT size=3D+0>
      <P align=3Dleft><TT>Later, <BR>Daniel L. "Concho" =
Smith<BR>Research &=20
      Documentation for: =
<BR>_____________________________________________=20
      <BR>HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT=20
       <BR>________________________________________HRD__ <BR>Visit =
these=20
      period camp sites at:=20
      =
<BR>http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/<BR>http://pages.about.com/conner1/<BR=
>http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>__________________________________=
___________=20
      </TT><BR><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at =
http://About.com=20
      =
</TT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT>----------------------=20
  hist_text list info:=20
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></B=
ODY></HTML>

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From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Woodswalk
Date: 08 Nov 2000 20:15:40 -0600

Wy,

Contact me off-list and I will send you a copy of the message I wrote to
another list that Frank responded to on this list. It is rather long.

Randy


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From: "atthesea" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Seeking info....
Date: 08 Nov 2000 20:32:18 -0800

Hello the List:
I have asked this question of others, so here goes ...  For several reasons,
I am limited to using a caplock...and no darned apologies from me...am
currently shooting a "indianized" read that a really modified CVA Mountain
Rifle.  Am interested in getting another BP rig for my monthly blanket
shoot.  For hunting, I will use the CVA .54, but for just shooting am
interested if anyone on the list has experience with a Pedersoli Kentucky or
a Pedersoli Pennsylvania Rifle, caplock in .45 or a Euroarms 1841
Mississippi in .54?  Any thoughts or experience with any of the 3 possible
choices listed?
Thanks....will get to the point one of these days soon where I will buy
something and am interested in your opinions.  Out here on the Oregon Coast,
not too many places close by to go pick one up, handle it, etc., so am
needing some words for maybe someone with experience.
Regards from rainy, windy and cool Coos Bay.
Ghostrider


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.
Date: 09 Nov 2000 00:01:33 EST


In a message dated 11/8/0 06:45:42 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< "we don't think this will harm the site and we're determined to go ahead
with it because we've made promises to our customers.">>

Made promises to their customers, my foot!  Made promises to their investors,
their creditors and their bank accounts is how it floats.  Must have gone to
Slick Willie's Evasive Dialogue School.
R. James

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jon Marinetti)
Subject: MtMan-List: Woodswalk challenges ..... [OT] Kramer's Franklin quote
Date: 09 Nov 2000 00:02:40 -0500 (EST)

Can anyone elaborate further or give historical background on these?
how often do they occur?  they sort of sound like basic training
(1800-1840 style) combined with wilderness survival. Very interesting
posts [i.e., 199? November Fort DeChartre].  Also good information to
know on Braziers. It's always painful to hear about a son losing his
father -  especially that way.  Thank God you and your hunting buddies
are still with us Buck.

[OT]
John:  where can one find the source for that nifty quote in your
sign-off?  It reminds me of a quote in one of my 2 Scripture Books: "yea
... I will arm my women and my children" [63 B.C. Central America -
similar to our modern-day Second Amendment Sisters and NRA Youth].

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking info....
Date: 09 Nov 2000 01:16:04 EST


In a message dated 11/8/0 09:35:15 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Pedersoli Kentucky or

a Pedersoli Pennsylvania Rifle, caplock in .45 or a Euroarms 1841

Mississippi in .54?  Any thoughts or experience with any of the 3 possible

choices listed?>>

 . . . Rider.  My opinion:  Pedersoli puts out some really nice pieces with
an eye to historic correctness -- IF you allow these are production guns.
Euroarms, on the other hand, is at the other end of the spectrum.  That is:
their quality control people either drink a lot or take frequent vacations.
You CAN get a fair piece from them from time to time, though but you must
check them out one at a time.  As for CVA . . . They have potentially a
nice-looking little gun in their Mountain Rifle (only), EXCEPT - it doesn't
have enough drop.  For economy reasons, they used stock-blank materials about
2" too narrow.  As a result, the average shooter has to kind his head over
and snuggle into the stock real tight  to see the sights.
Just opinions -- but based on experience.
Richard James

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Woodswalk challenges ..... [OT] Kramer's
Date: 09 Nov 2000 01:05:29 -0600


>
>[OT]
>John:  where can one find the source for that nifty quote in your
>sign-off?  It reminds me of a quote in one of my 2 Scripture Books: "yea
>... I will arm my women and my children" [63 B.C. Central America -
>similar to our modern-day Second Amendment Sisters and NRA Youth].


I picked it up from page 22 of the November 2000 Tomahawk & Long Rifle, the
journal of The American Mountain Men.

John...


____________________________________________________________
"The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of
each citizen to defend it.  Only if every single citizen feels duty bound
to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure."
                                -- Albert Einstein


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: K&LL <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Traps for Sale
Date: 09 Nov 2000 08:39:44 -0600



I have numerous traps for sale in several sizes and types.  If anyone is
interested please contact me at......   [e-mail]
Keith

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Trapping
Date: 09 Nov 2000 11:26:21 EST

Well, out here in good ole Washington state the animal rights folks got out
the vote Tuesday.  Traps have been outlawed.  Critters, including moles, must
now be sweet talked politely to enter a kinder-gentler cage -- and their
entry must be entirely their own idea.  These animals must be old enough to
be accountable for their choices.  Wonder what Ashley would have said about
that?

Laura Jean

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Trapping
Date: 09 Nov 2000 09:58:57 -0700

That's awful to hear Laura. Not surprising though as the liberal wave is
sweeping the country. Didn't Washington go to Gore?

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party, #1784

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking info....
Date: 09 Nov 2000 12:04:30 EST

In a message dated 11/9/00 1:16:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<<
 <<Pedersoli Kentucky or

 a Pedersoli Pennsylvania Rifle, >>
No experiance with the other brands but we own a Pdesoli Pennsylvania flint
in .36 and it is a good gun.  Bought it used with a cracked main spring and
had no problem getting replacement parts.  Looks proper and shoots well.

Y.H.O.S.

C.T. Oakes

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Trapping
Date: 09 Nov 2000 09:31:34 -0800

Well here in Oregon, we defeated the "confort traps" initiative by 59% to
41%.  Gets closer every year.
gail

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 8:26 AM


> Well, out here in good ole Washington state the animal rights folks got
out
> the vote Tuesday.  Traps have been outlawed.  Critters, including moles,
must
> now be sweet talked politely to enter a kinder-gentler cage -- and their
> entry must be entirely their own idea.  These animals must be old enough
to
> be accountable for their choices.  Wonder what Ashley would have said
about
> that?
>
> Laura Jean
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Trapping
Date: 09 Nov 2000 09:34:29 -0800

I should have included this summary of the measure. Sorry
gail carbiener
===================

MEASURE 97: Animal traps

What it would do: The measure, a proposed statutory change, would prohibit
the use of steel-jawed leghold traps and other body-gripping traps to
capture mammals. It also would prohibit the sale, purchase, barter or
exchange of raw fur from mammals caught in such traps. The use of certain
body-gripping traps for health and safety, animal control, research and
endangered species protection would be allowed with a permit from the Oregon
Department of Fish and Wildlife. The measure also would prohibit the use of
two poisons, sodium fluoroacetate and sodium cyanide.

Who's behind it: Former U.S. Rep. Elizabeth Furse, D-Ore., and Jennifer
Kirkpatrick of Scappoose.

Financial effect: Using alternative means of animal control would cost the
state about $455,000 annually, state fiscal analysts say. A permit system
would cost $655,000 each year, with a $30,000 start-up cost. Direct revenue
to the state would decrease by $36,500 with the elimination of fur-trapping
license fees.

Background: A similar ban on traps failed in Oregon in 1980, but a growing
animal protection movement across the country has Measure 97 supporters
confident of their chances this fall. Anti-trapping measures recently passed
in Arizona, California, Colorado and Massachusetts. Washington voters will
decide this fall on a measure identical to Oregon's.



> That's awful to hear Laura. Not surprising though as the liberal wave is
> sweeping the country. Didn't Washington go to Gore?
>
> "Teton" Todd D. Glover
> Poison River Party, #1784
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.
Date: 09 Nov 2000 10:41:53 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C04A39.AC5951E0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hello Buck and Concho and others concerned with this important chunk of
history,  PompÆs Pillar.

I have a copy of the digital image that was show by Tim Urbaniak on Sept
15th during Archaeology Week events at the Peter Yegen Jr. Yellowstone
County Museum that shows the scale of the proposed grain loading terminal
near Pompeys Pillar.  This photo was carried by the Billings OUTPOST on
9/27/00.  If someone has a place to hang it.  I can see a copy over.  I have
one in color and the black and white which was printed by the OUTPOST.

It is going to take more than contacting Montana environmental officials.
The heads of United Grain are in the best position to save one of the crown
jewels from this visual pollution and evident lack of historical
consideration.  They made the decision in Portland to go ahead and ruin the
view.  You two ought to see this picture and what they are going to do.
Makes me wonder.

Now that the information is outside of Montana.  I believe a better chance
is available to have the grain terminal moved a few miles up or down river.
The railroad has a lot of property every other mile or so.  To lease to
United Grain.  United Grain is building 7 of these grain loading stations in
Montana for the Asian market.

If you need any help let me know.


Walt
Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>He=
llo Buck
and Concho and others concerned with this important chunk of =
history,<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Pomp’s =
Pillar.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I =
have a
copy of the digital image that was show by Tim Urbaniak on Sept =
15<sup>th</sup>
during Archaeology Week events at the Peter Yegen Jr. Yellowstone County =
Museum
that shows the scale of the proposed grain loading terminal near Pompeys
Pillar.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>This photo was =
carried by
the Billings OUTPOST on 9/27/00.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">
</span>If someone has a place to hang it.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">
</span>I can see a copy over.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  =
</span>I
have one in color and the black and white which was printed by the =
OUTPOST.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>It=
 is
going to take more than contacting Montana environmental officials.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>The heads of United Grain are =
in the
best position to save one of the crown jewels from this visual pollution =
and evident
lack of historical consideration.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">
</span>They made the decision in Portland to go ahead and ruin the =
view.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>You two ought to see this =
picture and
what they are going to do.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  =
</span>Makes me
wonder.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>No=
w that
the information is outside of Montana.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">
</span>I believe a better chance is available to have the grain terminal =
moved
a few miles up or down river.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  =
</span>The
railroad has a lot of property every other mile or so.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>To lease to United Grain.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>United Grain is building 7 of =
these
grain loading stations in Montana for the Asian =
market.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>If=
 you
need any help let me know.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
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<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><!--[if supportFields]><span =
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f]--><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Clark =
Bottom
Rendezvous</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Yellowsto=
ne Canoe
Camp</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>On the =
Lewis
& Clark Trail</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:=
p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Park =
City,
Montana </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

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12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-end'></span></span></font></span><![endif]--><=
span
class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

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color=3Dblack
face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";
color:black'><span style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes"> </span></span></font></tt><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.
Date: 09 Nov 2000 11:42:37 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hello Buck and Concho and others concerned with this important chunk of
history,  PompÆs Pillar.

I have a copy of the digital image that was show by Tim Urbaniak on Sept
15th during Archaeology Week events at the Peter Yegen Jr. Yellowstone
County Museum that shows the scale of the proposed grain loading terminal
near Pompeys Pillar.  This photo was carried by the Billings OUTPOST on
9/27/00.  If someone has a place to hang it.  I can see a copy over.  I have
one in color and the black and white which was printed by the OUTPOST.

It is going to take more than contacting Montana environmental officials.
The heads of United Grain are in the best position to save one of the crown
jewels from this visual pollution and evident lack of historical
consideration.  They made the decision in Portland to go ahead and ruin the
view.  You two ought to see this picture and what they are going to do.
Makes me wonder.

Now that the information is outside of Montana.  I believe a better chance
is available to have the grain terminal moved a few miles up or down river.
The railroad has a lot of property every other mile or so.  To lease to
United Grain.  United Grain is building 7 of these grain loading stations in
Montana for the Asian market.

If you need any help let me know.


Walt


Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of John L. Allen
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 6:40 PM

Several of us "Lewis and Clark" types--Jim Ronda, Steve Ambrose, Dayton
Duncan, Gary Moulton, and myself--have called, e-mailed, written hard copy
letters to both United Harvest and the Montana Department of Environment.
We've also, as indicated by the article from the Denver paper, talked to
newspaper reporters. So far the only response I've received was from the
president of the company who said, in effect, "we don't think this will harm
the site and we're determined to go ahead with it because we've made
promises to our customers." Too bad that a wonderful historical site will be
marred by such a development when there are so many other places along the
mainline of the railroad that would work just as well. Montana's a big
state! If any of you have connections with either United Harvest or state
government in Montana: WRITE or CALL to register your protest.

John Allen
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 10:50 AM

Just received this from Buck, possible threat to
a neat site, read on.

Denver News Wednesday,Nov.8,2000

Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.

by Jim Robbins
________________________________
The New York Times.

 POMPEY'S PILLAR, Mont. - On the side of a
sandstone bluff here, the
explorer William Clark carved his first initial
and last name and July 25,1806,
the only place along the journey of several
thousand miles where physical
evidence of the Lewis & Clark expedition remains.
 Now as the West prepares for an influx of
tourists who will trace the travels
of Lewis & Clark during the bicentennial, a
grain-exporting company is building
a high-speed grain-loading plant in the shadow of
the National Historic Landmark.
The construction has raised the ire of
historians, nationally and locally, who
say the looming presence of four 150-foot
concrete cylinders will ruin the
ambiance of the isolated site.
 "It would be a shame if those silos go
through," said Dayton Duncan, writer of
Out West, a 1987 book on the Lewis & Clark and,
with Ken Burns, writer and
co-producer of the PBS documentary on the two
men. The pillar, Duncan said,
contains more than the marks left by Clark.
 "Not only did Clark sign it, but some of
Custer's men had a skirmish with
Sitting Bull, and their names are there, and
there are Indian names."
 The plant is one of seven high-speed
grain-loading plants being built in Montana
by United Harvest of Portland, Ore. Construction
began in August, but it was
stopped in September after it was discovered that
the company has never received
an air quality permit from the state. The
Pompey's Pillar Historical Association,
a Montana non-profit group, appealed the permit
in October, and state officials
say construction will not resume until hearings
have been held.
 The pillar is on the banks of the Yellowstone
River, on 473 acres owned by the
Bureau of Land Management, about 30 miles east of
Billings, Montana's largest city,
and is surrounded by farmland and pastures.
Opponents of the grain elevator say
the landscape has changed little since the 19th
century. "It doesn't take much
imagination with those vistas to imagine yourself
as William Clark or Custer"
Duncan said.
 "We spent a lot of time evaluating sites and
after several months this is the
only one that presented itself," said Chris
Davis, business development manager
for United Harvest. "We don't feel a facility
like this would be out of place."
Davis pointed out that the elevators would be
just 100 yards from Interstate 90.
 Dan Krum of Worden, Mont., chairman of the
Pompey's Pillar Historical Association,
said the fight has sparked interest from Lewis &
Clark aficionados around the
country and some have sent donations as large as
$500.00, anticipating a long battle.
 "They say they want to be good neighbors," Krum
said of United Harvest. "But
what they've done so far doesn't point to that."
____________________________________________________________







Later,
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith
Research & Documentation for:
_____________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
________________________________________HRD__
Visit these period camp sites at:
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
http://pages.about.com/conner1/
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
_____________________________________________
Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com
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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>He=
llo Buck
and Concho and others concerned with this important chunk of =
history,<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 </span>Pomp=92s =
Pillar.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I =
have a
copy of the digital image that was show by Tim Urbaniak on Sept =
15<sup>th</sup>
during Archaeology Week events at the Peter Yegen Jr. Yellowstone County =
Museum
that shows the scale of the proposed grain loading terminal near Pompeys
Pillar.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 </span>This photo was =
carried by the
Billings OUTPOST on 9/27/00.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 =
</span>If someone
has a place to hang it.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 </span>I =
can see a
copy over.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 </span>I have one in =
color and the
black and white which was printed by the =
OUTPOST.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>It=
 is
going to take more than contacting Montana environmental officials.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 </span>The heads of United Grain are in =
the best
position to save one of the crown jewels from this visual pollution and =
evident
lack of historical consideration.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 =
</span>They
made the decision in Portland to go ahead and ruin the view.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 </span>You two ought to see this picture =
and what
they are going to do.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 </span>Makes =
me wonder.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>No=
w that
the information is outside of Montana.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">=A0
</span>I believe a better chance is available to have the grain terminal =
moved
a few miles up or down river.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 =
</span>The
railroad has a lot of property every other mile or so.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 </span>To lease to United Grain.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 </span>United Grain is building 7 of =
these grain
loading stations in Montana for the Asian =
market.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>If=
 you
need any help let me know.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Wa=
lt<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle19><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle19><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><!--[if supportFields]><span =
class=3DEmailStyle19><font=20
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-begin'></span><span=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0</span>AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail =
Signature" <span=20
style=3D'mso-element:field-separator'></span></span></font></span><![endi=
f]--><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Clark =
Bottom
Rendezvous</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Yellowsto=
ne Canoe
Camp</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>On the =
Lewis
& Clark Trail</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:=
p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Park =
City,
Montana </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><!--[if supportFields]><span =
class=3DEmailStyle19><font=20
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-end'></span></span></font></span><![endif]--><=
span
class=3DEmailStyle19><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
[e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]<b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>John L. Allen<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, November =
08, 2000
6:40 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[e-mail]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: MtMan-List: =
Lewis
& Clark Memento Threatened.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Several of us
"Lewis and Clark" types--Jim Ronda, Steve Ambrose, Dayton =
Duncan,
Gary Moulton, and myself--have called, e-mailed, written hard copy =
letters to
both United Harvest and the Montana Department of Environment. We've =
also, as
indicated by the article from the Denver paper, talked to newspaper =
reporters.
So far the only response I've received was from the president of the =
company
who said, in effect, "we don't think this will harm the site and =
we're
determined to go ahead with it because we've made promises to our
customers." Too bad that a wonderful historical site will be marred =
by
such a development when there are so many other places along the =
mainline of
the railroad that would work just as well. Montana's a big state! If any =
of you
have connections with either United Harvest or state government in =
Montana:
WRITE or CALL to register your protest.</span></font><font =
color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>John Allen</span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>-----
Original Message ----- </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:win=
dowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;background:#E4E4E4;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:so=
lid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>

<div style=3D'font-color:black'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" title=3D"[e-mail]">Daniel L. =
Smith</a> </span></font></div>

<font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=3D"[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>
</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Wednesday, =
November 08,
2000 10:50 AM</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:win=
dowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>
MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.</span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

</div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:111.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt=
:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><tt><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";
color:black'>Just received this from Buck, possible threat =
to</span></font></tt><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Courier New";mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><br>
<tt>a neat site, read on.</tt><br>
<tt>--------------------------------------------</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>Denver News Wednesday,Nov.8,2000 </tt><br>
<br>
<tt>Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened. </tt><br>
<br>
<tt>by Jim Robbins </tt><br>
<tt>________________________________ </tt><br>
<tt>The New York Times. </tt><br>
<br>
<tt> POMPEY'S PILLAR, Mont. - On the side of a</tt><br>
<tt>sandstone bluff here, the </tt><br>
<tt>explorer William Clark carved his first initial</tt><br>
<tt>and last name and July 25,1806, </tt><br>
<tt>the only place along the journey of several</tt><br>
<tt>thousand miles where physical </tt><br>
<tt>evidence of the Lewis & Clark expedition remains. </tt><br>
<tt> Now as the West prepares for an influx of</tt><br>
<tt>tourists who will trace the travels </tt><br>
<tt>of Lewis & Clark during the bicentennial, a</tt><br>
<tt>grain-exporting company is building </tt><br>
<tt>a high-speed grain-loading plant in the shadow of</tt><br>
<tt>the National Historic Landmark. </tt><br>
<tt>The construction has raised the ire of</tt><br>
<tt>historians, nationally and locally, who </tt><br>
<tt>say the looming presence of four 150-foot</tt><br>
<tt>concrete cylinders will ruin the </tt><br>
<tt>ambiance of the isolated site. </tt><br>
<tt> "It would be a shame if those silos go</tt><br>
<tt>through," said Dayton Duncan, writer of </tt><br>
<tt>Out West, a 1987 book on the Lewis & Clark and,</tt><br>
<tt>with Ken Burns, writer and </tt><br>
<tt>co-producer of the PBS documentary on the two</tt><br>
<tt>men. The pillar, Duncan said, </tt><br>
<tt>contains more than the marks left by Clark. </tt><br>
<tt> "Not only did Clark sign it, but some of</tt><br>
<tt>Custer's men had a skirmish with </tt><br>
<tt>Sitting Bull, and their names are there, and</tt><br>
<tt>there are Indian names." </tt><br>
<tt> The plant is one of seven high-speed</tt><br>
<tt>grain-loading plants being built in Montana </tt><br>
<tt>by United Harvest of Portland, Ore. Construction</tt><br>
<tt>began in August, but it was </tt><br>
<tt>stopped in September after it was discovered that</tt><br>
<tt>the company has never received </tt><br>
<tt>an air quality permit from the state. The</tt><br>
<tt>Pompey's Pillar Historical Association, </tt><br>
<tt>a Montana non-profit group, appealed the permit</tt><br>
<tt>in October, and state officials </tt><br>
<tt>say construction will not resume until hearings</tt><br>
<tt>have been held. </tt><br>
<tt> The pillar is on the banks of the Yellowstone</tt><br>
<tt>River, on 473 acres owned by the </tt><br>
<tt>Bureau of Land Management, about 30 miles east of</tt><br>
<tt>Billings, Montana's largest city, </tt><br>
<tt>and is surrounded by farmland and pastures.</tt><br>
<tt>Opponents of the grain elevator say </tt><br>
<tt>the landscape has changed little since the 19th</tt><br>
<tt>century. "It doesn't take much </tt><br>
<tt>imagination with those vistas to imagine yourself</tt><br>
<tt>as William Clark or Custer" </tt><br>
<tt>Duncan said. </tt><br>
<tt> "We spent a lot of time evaluating sites and</tt><br>
<tt>after several months this is the </tt><br>
<tt>only one that presented itself," said Chris</tt><br>
<tt>Davis, business development manager </tt><br>
<tt>for United Harvest. "We don't feel a facility</tt><br>
<tt>like this would be out of place." </tt><br>
<tt>Davis pointed out that the elevators would be</tt><br>
<tt>just 100 yards from Interstate 90. </tt><br>
<tt> Dan Krum of Worden, Mont., chairman of the</tt><br>
<tt>Pompey's Pillar Historical Association, </tt><br>
<tt>said the fight has sparked interest from Lewis &</tt><br>
<tt>Clark aficionados around the </tt><br>
<tt>country and some have sent donations as large as</tt><br>
<tt>$500.00, anticipating a long battle. </tt><br>
<tt> "They say they want to be good neighbors," =
Krum</tt><br>
<tt>said of United Harvest. "But </tt><br>
<tt>what they've done so far doesn't point to that." </tt><br>
<tt>____________________________________________________________ =
</tt><br>
<br>
</span></font><font color=3Dblack><span style=3D'color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]></span></font><font color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p =
style=3D'margin-right:1.0in;margin-left:111.75pt;border:none;mso-border-l=
eft-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><tt><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Courier New";color:black'>Later, </span></font></tt><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><br>
<tt>Daniel L. "Concho" Smith</tt><br>
<tt>Research & Documentation for: </tt><br>
<tt>_____________________________________________ </tt><br>
<tt>HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  </tt><br>
<tt>________________________________________HRD__ </tt><br>
<tt>Visit these period camp sites at: </tt><br>
<tt>http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/</tt><br>
<tt>http://pages.about.com/conner1/</tt><br>
<tt>http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</tt><br>
<tt>_____________________________________________ =
</tt></span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span style=3D'color:black'><br>
</span></font><tt><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Sign up =
for a
free About Email account at http://About.com </span></font></tt><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

</div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>

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style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.
Date: 09 Nov 2000 15:52:56 EST

Just how close are these structures going to be to Pomp's Tower/Pillar? (
Iwas on the top this summer and the view was unspoiled.)
Thanks.
       Dick

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From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.
Date: 09 Nov 2000 15:03:59 -0700

<html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body   ><div align='left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT><BR>
---- Begin Original Message ----<BR>
 From: [e-mail]<BR>
Sent: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 15:52:56 EST<BR>
Threatened.<BR>
<BR>
Just how close are these structures going to be<BR>
to Pomp's Tower/Pillar? ( <BR>
Iwas on the top this summer and the view was<BR>
unspoiled.)<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
       Dick<BR>
<BR>
---- End Original Message ----<BR>
<BR>
According to the article it was a 100 yards from<BR>
the Interstate, so you being there how close will<BR>
it be, several hundred yards or 1/4 of a mile ?<BR>
<BR>
Was there years ago and don't remember an<BR>
Interstate !<BR>
<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Take care, <BR>
Barry "Buck" Conner <BR>
Resource & Documentation for:<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
       HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
________________________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ <BR>
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ <BR>
_____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
 </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>

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From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Woodswalk challenges ..... [OT] Kramer's Franklin quote
Date: 09 Nov 2000 15:16:46 -0700


---- Begin Original Message ----
 From: [e-mail] (Jon Marinetti)

Can anyone elaborate further or give historical
background on these?
how often do they occur?  they sort of sound like
basic training (1800-1840 style) combined with
wilderness survival. Very interesting posts
[i.e., 199? November Fort DeChartre].  Also good
information to know on Braziers. It's always
painful to hear about a son losing his father -
especially that way.  Thank God you and your
hunting buddies are still with us Buck.
---- End Original Message ----


Jon,

Ft. deChartre, usually in Nov.
The National Western, at that event.
Ft. Osage, usually in the fall.
Ft. Fred, summer event.
Manker's Station, summer event.

This has become a big deal at some of the bigger
events, watch Muzzleloader and Muzzle Blasts,
usually advertised.



Take care,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
_____________________________________________
       HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
________________________________________HRD__
Visit these period camp sites at:
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
http://pages.about.com/conner1/
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
_____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _
_____________________________________________

Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Woodswalk challenges ..... [OT] Kramer's Franklin quote
Date: 09 Nov 2000 16:55:06 -0600



> Can anyone elaborate further or give historical background on these?
> how often do they occur?  they sort of sound like basic training
> (1800-1840 style) combined with wilderness survival. Very interesting
> posts [i.e., 199? November Fort DeChartre].

Yeah, lots of fun. A good knowlege of the history of the time period is
necessary to be competitive, as well as a good grasp of woodcraft, shooting
ability, which includes fast reloads, and the ability to think on your feet.

Woodswalks are held the first week-end of November at Ft. DeChartre,
so you just missed this years event. Another one is scheduled the first
weekend
of Feb, but this is an F&I military event. Only for military units.

Another woodswalk is scheduled for the last weekend of Feb at the Bullseye
gun club range, south of DeSoto MO.

Most teams will allow observers to follow them through the course, please
do ask permisssion though. Some teams are touchy about observers.

J.D.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Woodswalk challenges ..... [OT] Kramer's Franklin quote
Date: 09 Nov 2000 20:25:00 EST

To give just a little information on two of the woodswalks:
The one held at Fort Chartres is with live rounds.  The one at
Fort Osage uses blanks.

Fort Chartres woodswalk is a hoot to do.  I've been doing that one
for more than 15 years.    Missed out on the walk this year......
truck trouble.

I've been doing the walk at Ft. Osage since the beginning.   If I
recall correctly, we only had one event with live shooting.   Since
then it's been blanks for all events.    Not to downplay Ft. Osage
in any way, its just set up for all events to be done as live
historical reenactments with all participants staying in Character
through the event.

In other words,  Ft. Chartres is fun, you are being yourself while
doing a historical activity.   Some stay in character, but others
are just their typical rendezvous self!   LOL     However, Ft. Osage
is set up to basically entertain the incoming public which comes to
view the events held on site; as well as teach the participant how
warfare was enacted during that time period.

Not trying to downplay either one, I have fun at both, they are just
totally different from each other.

Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
[e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: traps]
Date: 09 Nov 2000 21:08:33 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------F5A6BC035ABA23775D831416
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


--------------F5A6BC035ABA23775D831416
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Professional Engineering
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I)
X-Accept-Language: en,ru,de-DE
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

1080 and strychninne work great too!!

Ever try to live trap beaver to repopulate old areas...it's a gas.  Used
suitcase type live traps that could hold two children inside.  Come to
think of it, if we had trapped out those kids dumb enough to grab a
Barbie doll on the trap pan, we wouldn't have these freeking tree
huggers around today!!!!!

Mike

--------------F5A6BC035ABA23775D831416--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #669
Date: 09 Nov 2000 21:17:25 -0600

Not to complain much, but what's with the format that the last Hist text
came through in??  Ate up a whole bunch of time and didn't say anything
the little bit of text said.  Is it a format problem on my computer??

Buck, you're the computer expert...what happened??? (No, it's not your
posting, I don't think)

Thanks,
Mike

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Woodswalk
Date: 09 Nov 2000 21:43:25 -0600

harddog
I got my msgs from mlml on hold due to being on the road---please send me
the info on the woodswalk off line---
HAWK

e-mail to [e-mail]
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 09 Nov 2000 23:57:58 EST

John and the list, I saw a couple of Boxwood stoves listed in the latest
catalog for Northern Hydraulics Company.  Their website is  <A
HREF="http://www.northern-online.com/">www.NorthernTool.com </A>.  They are
beauties, but VERY heavy!

I use a very effective stove in my 12x12 pyramid; the collapsible sold by
Panther Primitives.  I have recently seen it advertised in the Sportsman's
Guide for $39.00, <A HREF="http://www.sportsmansguide.com/">The Sportsman's
Guide</A>     whereas Panther was selling the IDENTICAL stove for $115.

Barn

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Memento Threatened.
Date: 09 Nov 2000 22:28:21 -0700

The structures (large grain elevators) will be about 3/4 mile south of
Pompey's Pillar and directly in line with the view of the plains and
mountains on the southern horizon. You'll no longer see anything approaching
what Lewis and Clark saw. The view will definitely be spoiled--unless, of
course, you get off on looking at grain elevators. (I'm a believer in the
value of grain elevators--grew up in a Wyoming town named Wheatland for
crying out loud--but there is a place for everything and within spittin'
distance of a national historic landmark isn't the place for grain
elevator).

I also have a digitized image of the structures, imposed on a photo of the
natural landscape. If anyone wants one, contact me off-list at my university
e-mail address ([e-mail]) and I'll send it to you.

John Allen

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 1:52 PM


> Just how close are these structures going to be to Pomp's Tower/Pillar? (
> Iwas on the top this summer and the view was unspoiled.)
> Thanks.
>        Dick
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking info....
Date: 10 Nov 2000 09:28:17 EST

http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd/index.html
Ghostrider,
    Check out this website. You may alreadyknow about them though.It is for
Flying Cloud Trading Company in Roseburg,OR.  He seems Tohave A pretty good
selection of "stuff" as well as plenty of info.


ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Sleeps Loudly

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Self Serving Commercial Ad
Date: 10 Nov 2000 09:50:55 -0500

First, sorry for the cross posting. I have updated the site with some new
stuff...

http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

Thanks
Dennis



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Woodswalk
Date: 10 Nov 2000 14:04:56 -0700

<html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body   ><div align='left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT><BR>
---- Begin Original Message ----<BR>
 From: [e-mail]<BR>
Sent: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:43:25 -0600<BR>
<BR>
harddog<BR>
I got my msgs from mlml on hold due to being on<BR>
the road---please send me<BR>
the info on the woodswalk off line---<BR>
HAWK<BR>
<BR>
e-mail to [e-mail]<BR>
---- End Original Message ----<BR>
<BR>
Same problem, made the mistake of letting<BR>
"Concho" use my e-mail and my e-mail got<BR>
clean-out!<BR>
<BR>
[e-mail]<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Take care, <BR>
Barry "Buck" Conner <BR>
Resource & Documentation for:<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
       HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
________________________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ <BR>
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ <BR>
_____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
 </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: VIRUS ALERT - FROM McAFEE - W32/Navidad Worm
Date: 10 Nov 2000 20:36:38 EST


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: HELP!Storing hides for braintan and WHAT ABOUT THOSE DEER TICKS?
Date: 11 Nov 2000 13:27:45 EST

Ho Camp!

I have a question that needs answering in a hurry!  I have been intending to
get into braintan and have a processor who pulls his hides ready to give me a
bunch.  BUT today I went hunting with my father and we got three whitetails
between (7 point, 125 lb. whitetail for me) us.  I had the processor pull 2
of the hides and give them to me.  Because I cannot get to them immediately
(still getting fleshing beam, etc. set up) and b/c it is too warm to let the
air chill the hides, I bought a 25 lb. bag of salt and salted the hides on my
back patio (my wife freaked.  the two kids next door think it is "so cool".)
They are fur dows, salt on wet side and folded over on themselves like a taco
shell.  I put one in a plastic bag and one out (to save one if either move is
a mistake).  They are still sitting out on my patio in the shade.  They are
not fleshed yet.  My question is WHAT NEXT?  How long will they store this
way?  Do I need to resalt? ETC.  I have a list of braintan instruction guides
but the library here has none and neither do the bookstores (ordering will
take 2 - 4 weeks)  A lot of folks have gave me advice, but I am still
confused.  HAS ANYONE OUTTHERE WHO HAS SUCCESSFULLY BRAINTANNED GIVE ME SOME
"HOW - TO"? feel free to respond off-list to my e-mail.

Also, there were A LOT of deer ticks on the hides.  What to do about those?

ALL SHARED WISDOM WILL BE GRATEFULLY ACCEPTED!

Thanks everyone,

-C.Kent

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HELP!Storing hides for braintan and WHAT ABOUT THOSE DEER TICKS?
Date: 11 Nov 2000 12:04:49 -0700

C.Kent,

Unless the temperature is quite cool, you must get off the larger pieces
of meat and fat or you risk ruining the hide. You can use a knife to do
this if you don't have a beam as it's not too difficult. Otherwise
rolling them up and stashing them in a chest freezer is my
recommendation. If you are going to salt them, I'd recommend getting a
wood pallet to put them on. Then stretch out a hide and liberally cover
it with salt. Feed salt for cattle works best, but rock salt will work
also. Be sure to work the salt into all the folds around the legs and
neck. Then lay the next hide on top of the first one and repeat the
process. I've stacked five hides this way and left them all winter well
covered. I'ts  good to slightly incline the pallet so any liquids can run
off.  Be sure to use lots of salt. I put about 1 1/2 inches per hide so
it will really soak up the moisture from the hide and discourage any
bugs. Next spring pour the salt out on a tarp and dry it out and you can
use it again.
That's my thoughts...

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party, #1784

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HELP!Storing hides for braintan and WHAT ABOUT THOSE DEER TICKS?
Date: 11 Nov 2000 14:40:40 EST

Brother C Kent.  Where do you live that the weather is so warm to threaten
your hides?   Does it get below 40 degrees at night?  I have a full acre of
snow I would be glad to give you - free.  The advise Teton Todd gave you -
amen!  If you have nights below 40 degrees so you can expose  the hides for
cooling, then cover them with an insulation and keep them shaded to retain
the cool during the day . . .  this may take the place of  refridgerated
cooling (sounds like your wife may not give you a full endoresment to that
idea).  And what Todd said about cutting the "chunks" away . . . if you have
fat chunks and they get warm and melt, that grease going into the hide will
ruin it as it goes rancid.  The best way to have a good hide - a little more
work at the time, but saves you a lot of work later - is to skin mostly with
your hands, and not with your knife.  Sure, you have to make initial cuts to
get into the animal, but by using your hands and knuckles to separate that
hide, you end up with no flesh or fat clinging.  Years ago when I was buying
hides I got two hides from a young Mexican fellow that were the nicest I had
ever bought (some others looked like they had been skinned with a broken beer
bottle).  I asked him how he skinned - he told me:  He made the initial cuts
up the belly and brisket to the jaw, and those down the legs; then he started
to skin above the ears.  I should mention the carcass was hung from garage
rafters by the front legs.  When the ears and a little bit more were free, he
tied a rope around the bundle of ears and tied it to the bumper of his
Volkswagon.  Then he just pulled.  It left tiny little bits of muscle on the
lower back, but they were really insignificant.  I have found that sometimes
you have to give it a litttle "help" so these little muscles and those in the
flank area don't separate and go with the hide, rather than the carcass.
They say this only works with legal kills.  Those taken during poaching
season have to be treated in a totally different style.
Richard James

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: S Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HELP!Storing hides for braintan and WHAT ABOUT THOSE DEER TICKS?
Date: 11 Nov 2000 17:21:21 -0800 (PST)


--- [e-mail] wrote:
Help!


Don't worry, you are ok so far. The salt will dry out the skins and
preserve them from spoilage. Make sure you leave NO strips of fat on the
skin; muscles are ok. I prefer to leave the skins exposed to the air, not
folded like a taco but no harm's done.

The DOWNSIDE is flushing the salt out when you find the time. My lazy
man's method is weigh it down in a clean running brook or creek; failing
that, soak in a 35 gallon trash can full of fresh water, dump where you
think it's ok (not in your garden or lawn) and refill again. Twice might
be sufficient. i presume you will want the hair off: which method do you
prefer, the dry scrape or the wet scrape method? One's done on a frame and
the other's done on a beam.

=====
deafstones               ''~``
                        ( o o )
+------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.----------------------+

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: S Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HELP!Storing hides for braintan
Date: 11 Nov 2000 17:21:56 -0800 (PST)


--- [e-mail] wrote:
Help!


Don't worry, you are ok so far. The salt will dry out the skins and
preserve them from spoilage. Make sure you leave NO strips of fat on the
skin; muscles are ok. I prefer to leave the skins exposed to the air, not
folded like a taco but no harm's done.

The DOWNSIDE is flushing the salt out when you find the time. My lazy
man's method is weigh it down in a clean running brook or creek; failing
that, soak in a 35 gallon trash can full of fresh water, dump where you
think it's ok (not in your garden or lawn) and refill again. Twice might
be sufficient. i presume you will want the hair off: which method do you
prefer, the dry scrape or the wet scrape method? One's done on a frame and
the other's done on a beam.

=====
deafstones               ''~``
                        ( o o )
+------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.----------------------+

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: hides
Date: 12 Nov 2000 08:23:19 -0800

I have a friend in the Charlotte area of North Carolina that has tooooo many
hides.
If anyone in the area is interested in some FREE deer hides...let me know.  I
will put you in touch with him.  These are pulled hides from a meat place that
the hunters take their kills too.  He will not send or deliver...you have to
pick them up.

Linda Holley


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flour
Date: 12 Nov 2000 09:55:02 -0700

Gentelmen,
Question,
In the papers of William H. Ashley it states that he took 500 pounds of
Flour to the 1825 Rendezvous at Henrys Fork, that's a lot of pancakes?, how
did they cook it?.
It also shows Mr. Bill Monteaus as having received 2 copper 2 gallon
kettles?
And in his inventory of goods taken he shows 25 Kettles, but does not state
what they are made of?
Interesting!
YMOS
Ole # 718

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Pavel Grund" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: mystic symbols /good luck charms
Date: 12 Nov 2000 20:05:53 +0100


----- P=F9vodn=ED zpr=E1va -----
Od: Pavel Grund <[e-mail]>
Komu: ve=F8ejn=E1 konference US MM <[e-mail]>
Odesl=E1no: 25. =F8=EDjna 2000 14:53
P=F8edm=ECt: Fw: mystic symbols /good luck charms


>
> Hallo!
>
> Many thanks for all answers!
>
> In your answers I find some differences - you all deny "mystic moment" =
of
> symbols, but in letter of Dave Kanger he name it
> "good luck charms" - I think that it is the same ! In  Europe was in
> medieval much of superstitions pertinent to this "mystics symbols".
>
> Know you anybody more of this "good luck charms"?
>
> For example in book "Shooters and wizards-shooters" by Jaroslav Lugs is
> number of chapters pay to witchcraft of shooters. On this base set in f=
or
> example opera "Freischutz" by Carl Maria von Weber. Known fighter contr=
a
> superstitions and witchcraft in shooting was executioner Karl Huss from
town
> Cheb in Bohemia (now Czech Republic) 1761-1838.
>
> Can you anybody send to me picture of symbol named "man-in-the-moon" I =
do
> not know it.
>
> Special for Steve Pepke - can you send me picture of symbols from your
> musket? I start investigation with my friends about it.
>
> May be direct on my e-mail [e-mail].
>
> Peggy
>


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From: "Daniel L. Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flour
Date: 12 Nov 2000 15:59:32 -0700

<html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body   ><div align='left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT>---- Begin Original Message ----<BR>
 From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]><BR>
Gentelmen,<BR>
Question, <BR>
In the papers of William H. Ashley it states that <BR>
he took 500 pounds of Flour to the 1825 <BR>
Rendezvous at Henrys Fork,that's a lot of <BR>
pancakes?, how did they cook it?.<BR>
"bannock" baked on a stick, "biskets" baked in a <BR>
frying pan or pot with stew, "fry bread" heated  <BR>
on a flat rock in a boiling pot of lard,"snikers" <BR>
are done when rending lard - when the clean lard <BR>
is boiling in a liquid state the dough balls are <BR>
put in untl brown, pretty greasy.<BR>
It also shows Mr. Bill Monteaus as having <BR>
received 2 copper 2 gallon kettles? And in his <BR>
inventory of goods taken he shows 25 Kettles, but <BR>
does not state what they are made of?<BR>
tinned iron, iron, brass, copper, as well as thin <BR>
cast iron, not the stuff we see today - to thick.<BR>
Interesting!<BR>
YMOS<BR>
Ole # 718<BR>
---- End Original Message ----<BR>
<BR>
How your weather Ole ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Later, <BR>
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR>
Research & Documentation for: <BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
________________________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
_____________________________________________ </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flour
Date: 12 Nov 2000 17:13:10 -0700

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3056893991_76056_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Daniel,
Weather sucks!, we are 20 deg below normal, hope it changes soon. It has
been overcast and snowey since Tuesday the 7 of November, seems the heavens
are not happy with the election games that are being played.
You are correct cast iron from the period that I have seen was verry thin
and brittle compared to what we see today.
I don't know where I read this information, but in the centuries before
this, bread and bread products were concidered staples at every meal.  It
could be that grains can be stored for long periods of time after harvesting
that this became the practice. So I think that trapers of the period were so
use to having bread products that Ashley felt the need to make flour his
largest commodityfollowed by Coffee and Tobaco.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------


---- Begin Original Message ----
Gentelmen,
Question,
In the papers of William H. Ashley it states that
he took 500 pounds of Flour to the 1825
Rendezvous at Henrys Fork,that's a lot of
pancakes?, how did they cook it?.
"bannock" baked on a stick, "biskets" baked in a
frying pan or pot with stew, "fry bread" heated
on a flat rock in a boiling pot of lard,"snikers"
are done when rending lard - when the clean lard
is boiling in a liquid state the dough balls are
put in untl brown, pretty greasy.
It also shows Mr. Bill Monteaus as having
received 2 copper 2 gallon kettles? And in his
inventory of goods taken he shows 25 Kettles, but
does not state what they are made of?
tinned iron, iron, brass, copper, as well as thin
cast iron, not the stuff we see today - to thick.
Interesting!
YMOS
Ole # 718
---- End Original Message ----

How your weather Ole ?









Later,
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith
Research & Documentation for:
_____________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
________________________________________HRD__
Visit these period camp sites at:
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
http://pages.about.com/conner1/
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
_____________________________________________
Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com
---------------------- hist_text list info:
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Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Flour</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
Daniel,<BR>
Weather sucks!, we are 20 deg below normal, hope it changes soon. It has be=
en overcast and snowey since Tuesday the 7 of November, seems the heavens ar=
e not happy with the election games that are being played.<BR>
You are correct cast iron from the period that I have seen was verry thin a=
nd brittle compared to what we see today. <BR>
I don't know where I read this information, but in the centuries before thi=
s, bread and bread products were concidered staples at every meal.  It =
could be that grains can be stored for long periods of time after harvesting=
 that this became the practice. So I think that trapers of the period were s=
o use to having bread products that Ashley felt the need to make flour his l=
argest commodityfollowed by Coffee and Tobaco.<BR>
YMOS<BR>
Ole # 718<BR>
----------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE><TT>---- Begin Original Message ----<BR=
>
thlink.net</U></FONT>><BR>
Gentelmen,<BR>
Question, <BR>
In the papers of William H. Ashley it states that <BR>
he took 500 pounds of Flour to the 1825 <BR>
Rendezvous at Henrys Fork,that's a lot of <BR>
pancakes?, how did they cook it?.<BR>
"bannock" baked on a stick, "biskets" baked in a <BR>
frying pan or pot with stew, "fry bread" heated  <BR>
on a flat rock in a boiling pot of lard,"snikers" <BR>
are done when rending lard - when the clean lard <BR>
is boiling in a liquid state the dough balls are <BR>
put in untl brown, pretty greasy.<BR>
It also shows Mr. Bill Monteaus as having <BR>
received 2 copper 2 gallon kettles? And in his <BR>
inventory of goods taken he shows 25 Kettles, but <BR>
does not state what they are made of?<BR>
tinned iron, iron, brass, copper, as well as thin <BR>
cast iron, not the stuff we see today - to thick.<BR>
Interesting!<BR>
YMOS<BR>
Ole # 718<BR>
---- End Original Message ----<BR>
<BR>
How your weather Ole ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</TT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<TT>Later, <BR>
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR>
Research & Documentation for: <BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
________________________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
</U></FONT>_____________________________________________ <BR>
Sign up for a free About Email account at <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://A=
bout.com</U></FONT> <BR>
</TT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>---------------------- hist_text list info: =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<=
/U></FONT> <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "tap"tap"tap"
Date: 12 Nov 2000 17:20:06 -0700

Hey,
I send out a controversial e-mail and you guys sleep through it? Ok, try
this one,
Walt Foster was incorrect concerning the building of Fort Hall, they were
not"Metise",
they were "Mormons".  Ha Ha!.
Seriously,
I had a great time at the Western Teritorial (great place). I suggest that
more AMM brothers try to make next years at all cost.
YMOS
Ole # 718

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From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Woodswalk
Date: 12 Nov 2000 19:58:07 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Buck,
I posted this to another list, MLML, and a responce was sent to the AMM =
History List. Below is my original post.

Bob,

I was not able to participate in the cyber woodswalk because I helped =
plan
and execute it. However, I have been going on situational
woodswalks/survival matches for many years. I designed and ran three
survival matches each year for 15 years at our local club and over the
past four years myself and two others designed and ran three diferent,
three day, 24 hour per day, survival weekends.

When TOF emailed me and asked if I would help him set up a situational
cyber woodswalk. I said I would, but it would be harder than designing =
and
physically running one. Survival matches are more than just a shooting
game. They are also a "mind game." Sometimes they are also a trivia =
game,
but we left out that on this one. A participant has to read and reread =
the
scenario before the game starts. BTW, a scenario is never meant to give
the full story with details, but just gives good hints and the "flavor" =
of
the match. Along the way a little knowledge of the time period and =
stated
location helps immensely. A person with a little ingenuity and an
intuitive mind, (or is that a devious mind), usually does a little =
better
on these type of games. Any rules usually tell you what you have to do =
and
what you can't do, but doesn't spell out other things that you "can" do =
if
you think of them. A person usually has some trouble when participating
for the first time, but learns the "right" gear to carry and the =
"right?"
attitude to approach the match with after participating in a few of =
these
matches.

Hawk posted a message some time ago in which he suggested what a
participant should carry. His advice was pretty good, but each =
individual
who does these matches carries somewhat different gear. The mind game =
part
of these matches is the hardest thing to learn. One drawback to the =
cyber
woodswalk was that there was not anybody there physically to answer
certain questions although some questions were asked after the match.
Since I had nothing to do with scoring the match, I don't know if TOF
allowed any extra points for question asked after the match or not.

I recently left my house at 3AM in the morning in order to arrive in
another state by 9AM to attend a 2 day, 24 hour per day survival match. =
I
happened to have won this match. Came in first over 29 other =
participants
even though I was by far the oldest participant and lost my spectacles =
in
a canoe capsizing at about noon on the first day. I cannot see more than =
5
inches clearly without my glasses. I didn't come in first because I was
the best shot, but because I have played this game a whole lot of times
and was prepared.

In answer to your question I will tell the MLML members what I carry on =
a
survival match and the reasoning of some of my decisions.

I always carry a smoothbore. I am not much of a shot with a rifle =
anymore
and I like the vesatility of a smoothbore. Targets at survival matches =
are
usually not all that hard to hit. I always design mine so that the =
average
shooter will find 50% or better of the targets to be easy shots. The
particular smoothbore I carry on survival amtches has been retrofitted
with a steel ramrod like that on a Bess. Quicker, easier loading with a
fouled barrel, doesn't break, and you can't hardly shoot one in two.

In my shooting pouch I carry 20 pre-made paper cartridges, 30 =
pre-patched
and lubed balls, 30 bare balls and enough patching for them, Fifty to
sixty 30 caliber balls for buck and ball loads, and a small shot pouch
with enough #6 shot for maybe 10 shots. I also carry wadding and cards =
for
the buck and ball and shot loads. (Versatility and it is a shooting game
afterall.) In a firefight or speed shooting situation unpatched balls =
are
loaded when the fowling becomes a problem. In my shooting pouch is also =
an
extra mainspring, a mainspring vise, a combination ramrod
puller/turnscrew, five extra flints, a tin of olive oil and beeswax =
lube,
a folding knife, a small sharpening stone, a small extra powder horn,
(sometimes in the game you loose your main horn), and a tow worm wrapped
with tow. My smoothbore shooting pouch is a double bag with an inside
pocket and an outside pocket. My powder measure is attached to the strap
and my patch knife is in a sheath on the back of the bag. BTW, my powder
measure is small enough in diameter that the whole measure will fit in =
the
bore of my gun. This facilitates loading, without loosing powder, while =
in
the prone position. My powder horn is a large 20" horn that holds a =
pound
and a half of powder or more. My vent pick is tied to and stuck into the
powder horn strap.

On my person I carry a small tin of chewing tobacco in a samll belt bag, =
a
small bag of jerky and a small bag of parched corn tucked inside my
shirt, a large spike tomahawk tucked in the back of my sash and a belt
knife tucked into my sash on the side. (That's three knives I am =
carrying,
folding in bag, belt knife and patch knife on bag.) I also wear two =
large
sterling trade silver bracelets and a sterling trade silver cross
necklace. My clothing, scarf, breechclout, leg ties, always have a few
small sterling silver trade brooches attached somewhere. These trade
silver items, besides being ornamental, constitute trade goods if =
needed.

In a haversack I carry a small boiler, a small wooden cup, a fishing =
kit,
a fire starting kit, a couple of pieces of fat wood, a tin of mocassin
grease, several lengths of linen twine, some extra tow, a folding lead
ladle, bullet mold, bar lead and whatever foodstuff I might need for a
weekend or week in the woods. I have a matchcoat, (small blanket), tied =
to
the strap of the haversack in lieu of a regular coat or weskit. On my =
back
I wear a rucksack containing a wool blanket, an extra shirt, and an =
extra
pair of moccasins. Also in the rucksack, but not period correct is my
diabetic supplies, insulin, syringes, glucose meter, etc, and my
perscription pills.

This is my normal gear for any Spring, Summer or Fall event whether a
survival or not. I always carry this gear. In Winter, yes they do have
Winter survivals, I throw an extra blanket into the rucksack and I wear
more clothing.

During the whole match I never take off or leave any of my gear =
anywhere.
It is always with me and on my person. You never know when you will be
asked to show something. You, also, can never trust that your gear will =
be
there when you return if you leave it somewhere. A favorite trick on
survival outings is to try and somehow strip you of some of your gear.

Like I said, it is a mind game, you against the people running the =
match.
Once you have been on a few such matches you begin to anticipate what =
you
will be confronted with and what gear you really need to carry.

Someone mentioned how people tend to carry to much weight. On a recent
survival I booshwayed the guys putting it on each weighed their gear so =
we
could arrive at an average weight of gear. When the participants began =
to
arrive we weighed them with and without their gear to find out how many
pounds of gear they were carrying and then made them give up gear until
their gear weight matched our average. I saw a lot of hard decisions =
being
made by the participants as they pondered whether to give up food versus
ammunition versus blankets, etc. One large muscular guy who could well
carry all the gear he had with him ended up having to give up 69 pounds =
of
gear. This guy was obviously carrying way to much gear. This exercise
presented a learning situation on how much and which gear to carry. On =
the
last survival I sponsored each participant started out by having to show
me all the balls, cartridges, and shot he had with him. I confiscated =
all
but enough for 5 shots by telling them they had capsized a canoe and =
lost
the rest. They earned ammo back by hitting targets, performing period
skills and answering trivia questions about the time period and =
geographic
location of the scenario. After a long hard three days the last thing =
the
participants had to do was participate in a firefight with the indians.
They did well if they were able to earn enough ammo during the previous
two and on half days.

Concerning how you should be thinking on a survival. If the scenario =
says
you are in hostile territory, then you should question whether or not to
start a fire when asked to do so. I always opt to cold camp if hostiles
are in evidence. If the scenario says a "one day scout" in hostile
territory, you have to decide whether to shoot at a turkey target when
asked to do so. I can live on jerky and parched corn for several days so
why would I want to shoot at a turkey and alert the hostiles of my
position? I would hate to shoot at a turkey and then have a hostile rush
at me and my unloaded gun. Sometimes strategies like these are to your
benefit and sometimes they work against you. It just depends on how
devious the person is who designed the match. Do you strip the indian,
that you just shot, of his knife or gun or hawk. Certainly, if you need
them, but you may find out that he was infected with smallpox and now so
are you.

Did TOF and I plan a perfect cyber woodswalk? Probably not, but it was a
first try at a new and slightly different endeavor. Did everybody, even
the old timers learn something? I think so. I hope so. I also hope that
everybody who participated at least went away thinking that they had =
fun.
More fun than just punching a paper target. I remain.....

YMH&OS,
Harddog


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Buck Conner=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 3:04 PM
  Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Woodswalk



      ---- Begin Original Message ----
      From: [e-mail]
      Sent: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:43:25 -0600
      To: [e-mail]
      Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Woodswalk

      harddog
      I got my msgs from mlml on hold due to being on
      the road---please send me
      the info on the woodswalk off line---
      HAWK

      e-mail to [e-mail]
      ---- End Original Message ----

      Same problem, made the mistake of letting
      "Concho" use my e-mail and my e-mail got
      clean-out!

      [e-mail]

      Thanks








      Take care,=20
      Barry "Buck" Conner=20
      Resource & Documentation for:
      _____________________________________________=20
            HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT =20
      ________________________________________HRD__=20
      Visit these period camp sites at:=20
      http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
      http://pages.about.com/conner1/=20
      http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/=20
      _____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _
      _____________________________________________=20

      Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com=20

  ---------------------- hist_text list info: =
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------=_NextPart_000_0114_01C04CE2.E00A5FB0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META=20
content=3D"commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web =
based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, =
advertising banners, e-mail, free software"=20
name=3Dkeywords>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Buck,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>I posted this to another =
list, MLML,=20
and a responce was sent to the AMM History List. Below is my original=20
post.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Bob,<BR><BR>I was not able =
to=20
participate in the cyber woodswalk because I helped plan<BR>and execute =
it.=20
However, I have been going on situational<BR>woodswalks/survival matches =
for=20
many years. I designed and ran three<BR>survival matches each year for =
15 years=20
at our local club and over the<BR>past four years myself and two others =
designed=20
and ran three diferent,<BR>three day, 24 hour per day, survival=20
weekends.<BR><BR>When TOF emailed me and asked if I would help him set =
up a=20
situational<BR>cyber woodswalk. I said I would, but it would be harder =
than=20
designing and<BR>physically running one. Survival matches are more than =
just a=20
shooting<BR>game. They are also a "mind game." Sometimes they are also a =
trivia=20
game,<BR>but we left out that on this one. A participant has to read and =
reread=20
the<BR>scenario before the game starts. BTW, a scenario is never meant =
to=20
give<BR>the full story with details, but just gives good hints and the =
"flavor"=20
of<BR>the match. Along the way a little knowledge of the time period and =

stated<BR>location helps immensely. A person with a little ingenuity and =

an<BR>intuitive mind, (or is that a devious mind), usually does a little =

better<BR>on these type of games. Any rules usually tell you what you =
have to do=20
and<BR>what you can't do, but doesn't spell out other things that you =
"can" do=20
if<BR>you think of them. A person usually has some trouble when=20
participating<BR>for the first time, but learns the "right" gear to =
carry and=20
the "right?"<BR>attitude to approach the match with after participating =
in a few=20
of these<BR>matches.<BR><BR>Hawk posted a message some time ago in which =
he=20
suggested what a<BR>participant should carry. His advice was pretty =
good, but=20
each individual<BR>who does these matches carries somewhat different =
gear. The=20
mind game part<BR>of these matches is the hardest thing to learn. One =
drawback=20
to the cyber<BR>woodswalk was that there was not anybody there =
physically to=20
answer<BR>certain questions although some questions were asked after the =

match.<BR>Since I had nothing to do with scoring the match, I don't know =
if=20
TOF<BR>allowed any extra points for question asked after the match or=20
not.<BR><BR>I recently left my house at 3AM in the morning in order to =
arrive=20
in<BR>another state by 9AM to attend a 2 day, 24 hour per day survival =
match.=20
I<BR>happened to have won this match. Came in first over 29 other=20
participants<BR>even though I was by far the oldest participant and lost =
my=20
spectacles in<BR>a canoe capsizing at about noon on the first day. I =
cannot see=20
more than 5<BR>inches clearly without my glasses. I didn't come in first =
because=20
I was<BR>the best shot, but because I have played this game a whole lot =
of=20
times<BR>and was prepared.<BR><BR>In answer to your question I will tell =
the=20
MLML members what I carry on a<BR>survival match and the reasoning of =
some of my=20
decisions.<BR><BR>I always carry a smoothbore. I am not much of a shot =
with a=20
rifle anymore<BR>and I like the vesatility of a smoothbore. Targets at =
survival=20
matches are<BR>usually not all that hard to hit. I always design mine so =
that=20
the average<BR>shooter will find 50% or better of the targets to be easy =
shots.=20
The<BR>particular smoothbore I carry on survival amtches has been=20
retrofitted<BR>with a steel ramrod like that on a Bess. Quicker, easier =
loading=20
with a<BR>fouled barrel, doesn't break, and you can't hardly shoot one =
in=20
two.<BR><BR>In my shooting pouch I carry 20 pre-made paper cartridges, =
30=20
pre-patched<BR>and lubed balls, 30 bare balls and enough patching for =
them,=20
Fifty to<BR>sixty 30 caliber balls for buck and ball loads, and a small =
shot=20
pouch<BR>with enough #6 shot for maybe 10 shots. I also carry wadding =
and cards=20
for<BR>the buck and ball and shot loads. (Versatility and it is a =
shooting=20
game<BR>afterall.) In a firefight or speed shooting situation unpatched =
balls=20
are<BR>loaded when the fowling becomes a problem. In my shooting pouch =
is also=20
an<BR>extra mainspring, a mainspring vise, a combination=20
ramrod<BR>puller/turnscrew, five extra flints, a tin of olive oil and =
beeswax=20
lube,<BR>a folding knife, a small sharpening stone, a small extra powder =

horn,<BR>(sometimes in the game you loose your main horn), and a tow =
worm=20
wrapped<BR>with tow. My smoothbore shooting pouch is a double bag with =
an=20
inside<BR>pocket and an outside pocket. My powder measure is attached to =
the=20
strap<BR>and my patch knife is in a sheath on the back of the bag. BTW, =
my=20
powder<BR>measure is small enough in diameter that the whole measure =
will fit in=20
the<BR>bore of my gun. This facilitates loading, without loosing powder, =
while=20
in<BR>the prone position. My powder horn is a large 20" horn that holds =
a=20
pound<BR>and a half of powder or more. My vent pick is tied to and stuck =
into=20
the<BR>powder horn strap.<BR><BR>On my person I carry a small tin of =
chewing=20
tobacco in a samll belt bag, a<BR>small bag of jerky and a small bag of =
parched=20
corn tucked inside my<BR>shirt, a large spike tomahawk tucked in the =
back of my=20
sash and a belt<BR>knife tucked into my sash on the side. (That's three =
knives I=20
am carrying,<BR>folding in bag, belt knife and patch knife on bag.) I =
also wear=20
two large<BR>sterling trade silver bracelets and a sterling trade silver =

cross<BR>necklace. My clothing, scarf, breechclout, leg ties, always =
have a=20
few<BR>small sterling silver trade brooches attached somewhere. These=20
trade<BR>silver items, besides being ornamental, constitute trade goods =
if=20
needed.<BR><BR>In a haversack I carry a small boiler, a small wooden =
cup, a=20
fishing kit,<BR>a fire starting kit, a couple of pieces of fat wood, a =
tin of=20
mocassin<BR>grease, several lengths of linen twine, some extra tow, a =
folding=20
lead<BR>ladle, bullet mold, bar lead and whatever foodstuff I might need =
for=20
a<BR>weekend or week in the woods. I have a matchcoat, (small blanket), =
tied=20
to<BR>the strap of the haversack in lieu of a regular coat or weskit. On =
my=20
back<BR>I wear a rucksack containing a wool blanket, an extra shirt, and =
an=20
extra<BR>pair of moccasins. Also in the rucksack, but not period correct =
is=20
my<BR>diabetic supplies, insulin, syringes, glucose meter, etc, and=20
my<BR>perscription pills.<BR><BR>This is my normal gear for any Spring, =
Summer=20
or Fall event whether a<BR>survival or not. I always carry this gear. In =
Winter,=20
yes they do have<BR>Winter survivals, I throw an extra blanket into the =
rucksack=20
and I wear<BR>more clothing.<BR><BR>During the whole match I never take =
off or=20
leave any of my gear anywhere.<BR>It is always with me and on my person. =
You=20
never know when you will be<BR>asked to show something. You, also, can =
never=20
trust that your gear will be<BR>there when you return if you leave it =
somewhere.=20
A favorite trick on<BR>survival outings is to try and somehow strip you =
of some=20
of your gear.<BR><BR>Like I said, it is a mind game, you against the =
people=20
running the match.<BR>Once you have been on a few such matches you begin =
to=20
anticipate what you<BR>will be confronted with and what gear you really =
need to=20
carry.<BR><BR>Someone mentioned how people tend to carry to much weight. =
On a=20
recent<BR>survival I booshwayed the guys putting it on each weighed =
their gear=20
so we<BR>could arrive at an average weight of gear. When the =
participants began=20
to<BR>arrive we weighed them with and without their gear to find out how =

many<BR>pounds of gear they were carrying and then made them give up =
gear=20
until<BR>their gear weight matched our average. I saw a lot of hard =
decisions=20
being<BR>made by the participants as they pondered whether to give up =
food=20
versus<BR>ammunition versus blankets, etc. One large muscular guy who =
could=20
well<BR>carry all the gear he had with him ended up having to give up 69 =
pounds=20
of<BR>gear. This guy was obviously carrying way to much gear. This=20
exercise<BR>presented a learning situation on how much and which gear to =
carry.=20
On the<BR>last survival I sponsored each participant started out by =
having to=20
show<BR>me all the balls, cartridges, and shot he had with him. I =
confiscated=20
all<BR>but enough for 5 shots by telling them they had capsized a canoe =
and=20
lost<BR>the rest. They earned ammo back by hitting targets, performing=20
period<BR>skills and answering trivia questions about the time period =
and=20
geographic<BR>location of the scenario. After a long hard three days the =
last=20
thing the<BR>participants had to do was participate in a firefight with =
the=20
indians.<BR>They did well if they were able to earn enough ammo during =
the=20
previous<BR>two and on half days.<BR><BR>Concerning how you should be =
thinking=20
on a survival. If the scenario says<BR>you are in hostile territory, =
then you=20
should question whether or not to<BR>start a fire when asked to do so. I =
always=20
opt to cold camp if hostiles<BR>are in evidence. If the scenario says a =
"one day=20
scout" in hostile<BR>territory, you have to decide whether to shoot at a =
turkey=20
target when<BR>asked to do so. I can live on jerky and parched corn for =
several=20
days so<BR>why would I want to shoot at a turkey and alert the hostiles =
of=20
my<BR>position? I would hate to shoot at a turkey and then have a =
hostile=20
rush<BR>at me and my unloaded gun. Sometimes strategies like these are =
to=20
your<BR>benefit and sometimes they work against you. It just depends on=20
how<BR>devious the person is who designed the match. Do you strip the=20
indian,<BR>that you just shot, of his knife or gun or hawk. Certainly, =
if you=20
need<BR>them, but you may find out that he was infected with smallpox =
and now=20
so<BR>are you.<BR><BR>Did TOF and I plan a perfect cyber woodswalk? =
Probably=20
not, but it was a<BR>first try at a new and slightly different endeavor. =
Did=20
everybody, even<BR>the old timers learn something? I think so. I hope =
so. I also=20
hope that<BR>everybody who participated at least went away thinking that =
they=20
had fun.<BR>More fun than just punching a paper target. I=20
remain.....<BR><BR>YMH&OS,<BR>Harddog<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" title=[e-mail]>Buck =
Conner</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 10, 2000 =
3:04=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Re: MtMan-List:=20
  Woodswalk</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D+0>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE><TT><BR>---- Begin Original Message ----<BR>From: <A=20
      href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A><BR>Sent: =
Thu, 9=20
      Nov 2000 21:43:25 -0600<BR>To: <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A><BR>Subject:=20
      Re: MtMan-List: Woodswalk<BR><BR>harddog<BR>I got my msgs from =
mlml on=20
      hold due to being on<BR>the road---please send me<BR>the info on =
the=20
      woodswalk off line---<BR>HAWK<BR><BR>e-mail to <A=20
      href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A><BR>---- =
End=20
      Original Message ----<BR><BR>Same problem, made the mistake of=20
      letting<BR>"Concho" use my e-mail and my e-mail=20
      =
got<BR>clean-out!<BR><BR>[e-mail]<BR><BR>Thanks<BR><BR></TT><BR>=
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT=20
      size=3D+0>
      <P align=3Dleft><TT>Take care, <BR>Barry "Buck" Conner =
<BR>Resource &=20
      Documentation =
for:<BR>_____________________________________________=20
      <BR>      HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT=20
       <BR>________________________________________HRD__ <BR>Visit =
these=20
      period camp sites at:=20
      =
<BR>http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>http://pages.about.com/conner1/=
=20
      <BR>http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ <BR>_____________________ Aux =
Aliments=20
      de Pays! _<BR>_____________________________________________=20
      <BR></TT><BR><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at=20
      http://About.com=20
  </TT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT>---------------------- =

  hist_text list info:=20
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></B=
ODY></HTML>

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From: "Douglas Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Zthing.com Presents: Oops I Farted Again
Date: 12 Nov 2000 20:03:53 -0600


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 10:07 PM


> Hey!
> Your friend: Blake ,
> came to our site, and liked this zthing so much,
> they decided YOU gotta see it.
>
> Here's what they wrote:
> yoyoyoyoyoyo!!!!! This is like soooo halernis or halarium. Tutalu!!!
>
>      Feel THe TENSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Come and get it:
> http://www.zthing.com/zthings/oops.html
>
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> If you would like to pass this Zthing along to your friends
> you can forward them this email. Or, you can send it to up
> to 10 of your friends via the form found at
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> Gator is the FREE tool that fills out forms with just one click.
> Download now and receive over $150 in free coupons.
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: "tap"tap"tap"
Date: 12 Nov 2000 19:15:42 -0700

Hey,
I send out a controversial e-mail and you guys sleep through it? Ok, try
this one,
Walt Foster was incorrect concerning the building of Fort Hall, they were
not"Metise",
they were "Mormons".  Ha Ha!.
 YMOS
Ole # 718

Good yoke Ole,

I am glad you waited until after Veterans Day and the pressure of the vote
was off to stir up the campfire with your tapping.  I think I can make a
pretty good case for the Metis in the American Fur Trade in Montana and the
northern Rockies.  Starting with Charbono in 1804.  Followed by La Roche in
1805.  At my age the easy way is to start a study group at the Peter Yegen
Jr. Yellowstone County Museum.  The one nearby where Magpie flies into
Billings.  Chittenden does a pretty good job as a scientific historian in
developing the background of  the Wyeth attempt to take cuts in the already
established contesting for the supremacy sought and won by the American Fur
Company when it bought out the rendezvous system in 1834 and closed it down
3 years later.  Metis were everywhere around here and I think they were in
your area also.  My interests are in the upper Missouri and the environs
around what is now called Yellowstone Park....the hub of the northern rocky
mountain fur trade in the USA.  Good hunting weather here now.   Cold.  Just
right for the winterers.  Maybe so a paper will come out of this.  This
winter.  I am volunteering on Mondays at the museum for a while.  I will be
doing something to keep advancing this point about Metis involvement in the
rocky mountain fur trade.  Many sayings attributed to the mountain men
stemmed from the Metis working in the fur trade on the American side of the
border.  Thanks for building up the fire light.


Walt
Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "tap"tap"tap"
Date: 12 Nov 2000 19:50:48 -0700

Walt

    Why do you persist in claiming that Frenchmen were Metis? You're
ascribing ancestry to people were it is very clearly not due.
The "La Roche" you referred to I assume is Francois Antoine Larocque. He
was born of French parents and therefore is not Metis, and would probably
have been quite insulted to be referred to as such.
    A classical example of who was Metis is the Deschamps family of Fort
Union. However I certainly hope that they were not representative of
Metis in general,as they were about the worst scoundrels, thieves and
murderers of the time.
    The blood of the Frenchmen runs deep in the Western Fur Trade, of that
there is no doubt and no use to argue. But to ascribe a larger role than
is due based only upon conjecture and not upon documented facts is folly
and a slippery road better not taken.

Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party, #1784

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hides
Date: 12 Nov 2000 18:55:45 -0800

Linda,
    Give me that name!  I got friends working in Charlotte that owe me a
whole pile of money.  I figure picking up and storing hides is just a start
to paying off their debt.

Larry Huber

[e-mail]

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 8:23 AM


> I have a friend in the Charlotte area of North Carolina that has tooooo
many
> hides.
> If anyone in the area is interested in some FREE deer hides...let me know.
I
> will put you in touch with him.  These are pulled hides from a meat place
that
> the hunters take their kills too.  He will not send or deliver...you have
to
> pick them up.
>
> Linda Holley
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HELP!Storing hides for braintan and WHAT ABOUT
Date: 12 Nov 2000 09:36:36 -0700

DO NOT STORE IN PLASTIC BAGS, DO NOT SALT AND FOLD HAIR SIDE IN. Let
dry and roll or fold hair side in to help in drying. based on
experience!
joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "tap"tap"tap"
Date: 13 Nov 2000 00:33:20 EST

Metis in Ole county?  Nope.  This area was strongly Shoshone.  About where
Ole lives was the Mason-Dixon line between Shoshone and Ute, with the
Gosiutes west of here. Of course they were all the same ancestoral bunch -
along with the Pautes, Commanches, Bannock and even Aztec. Not a good place
to wander in and say  "Hi, I'm Metis".

Richard James

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "tap"tap"tap"
Date: 13 Nov 2000 01:59:47 EST

Not me Ole I only got half way through the first sentence and my guard hair
started to come up. Good thing I got in late or I would have been all over
it. I see ya found your self a good stirring stick at Western Territorial.
Good to here ya had a good time wish could have made it.
 Would us say 100 is a conservative number for the number of trappers and
Indians that were to meet William H. Ashley at the 1825 Rendezvous on Henrys
Fork. That is only five pounds of flour per man for a hole year that aint
much flour. Think about it, the numbers were a lot higher then that who
attended. Nice try
                                                 See ya on the trail
                                                  Crazy Cyot

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HELP!Storing hides for braintan and WHAT ABOUT THOSE DEER TIC...
Date: 13 Nov 2000 02:12:52 EST

Joe's right salt is to help hold the hair on a hide which you don't want to
do if your going to be taking the hair off later. I just throw the hide over
a something flesh side up and let it dry out. Try and keep it off the ground
so the bugs and dogs don't get to it. I have stored hides for up to three
years this way with no problems so long as they stay dry.
                                                       Crazy Cyot

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "tap"tap"tap"
Date: 13 Nov 2000 07:32:23 -0700

Crazy,
Wish you could have been there, you and "Dead Horse" would have made a
pair.(Good Man)
I have been looking through a posting of Ashleys note book, I noticed that
the list of goods sold and the list of goods taken to Rendezvous don't match
too well. It's not so much what he says but what he doesn't say. You are
correct in your math, but then from the list shown, they would not have
lasted a year if distributed evenly. What it does prove is this " The
trapers did want and eat bread products" as to what type, I don't know.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "tap"tap"tap"
>Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000, 11:59 PM
>

>Not me Ole I only got half way through the first sentence and my guard hair
>started to come up. Good thing I got in late or I would have been all over
>it. I see ya found your self a good stirring stick at Western Territorial.
>Good to here ya had a good time wish could have made it.
> Would us say 100 is a conservative number for the number of trappers and
>Indians that were to meet William H. Ashley at the 1825 Rendezvous on Henrys
>Fork. That is only five pounds of flour per man for a hole year that aint
>much flour. Think about it, the numbers were a lot higher then that who
>attended. Nice try
>                                                 See ya on the trail
>                                                  Crazy Cyot
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hides
Date: 13 Nov 2000 10:37:24 -0500

Linda,

Do you know if he has any antlers that can be had, also?

Tks,
Dennis




> I have a friend in the Charlotte area of North Carolina that has tooooo
many
> hides.
> If anyone in the area is interested in some FREE deer hides...let me know.
I
> will put you in touch with him.  These are pulled hides from a meat place
that
> the hunters take their kills too.  He will not send or deliver...you have
to
> pick them up.
>
> Linda Holley
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Trapping
Date: 13 Nov 2000 13:10:20 EST


--part1_56.33be7fe.2741888c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sounds like you can use snares.  Can you?

--part1_56.33be7fe.2741888c_boundary
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=2>Sounds like you can use snares.  Can you?</FONT></HTML>

--part1_56.33be7fe.2741888c_boundary--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Save the Missouri River
Date: 13 Nov 2000 11:52:18 -0700

> THIS IS A MESSAGE IN 'MIME' FORMAT.  Your mail reader does not support MIME.
> Please read the first section, which is plain text, and ignore the rest.
--Interpart.Boundary.11.22.33.M2Y18970
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body   ><div align='left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT>HERE'S ANOTHER PROBLEM, RECEIVED THIS FROM<BR>
CONCHO.<BR>
<BR>
OLE, I'M SURPRISED TO SEE YOU AGREE WITH<BR>
"CONCHO"  ON THE FLOUR ISSUE, HE USUALLY HAS MORE<BR>
TO SAY WHEN TALKING ABOUT EDIBLES.<BR>
<BR>
SOUNDS LIKE US IN THE ROCKIES ARE HAVING THE SAME<BR>
WEATHER CONDITIONS.<BR>
<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Take care, <BR>
Barry "Buck" Conner <BR>
Resource & Documentation for:<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
       HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
________________________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ <BR>
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ <BR>
_____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
 </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>
--Interpart.Boundary.11.22.33.M2Y18970
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="OriginalBody.htm"
Content-Disposition:  attachment; filename="OriginalBody.htm"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Description: OriginalBody.htm

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X19fX19fX19fXw0KPGJyPiZuYnNwOzwvaHRtbD4NCg0K
--Interpart.Boundary.11.22.33.M2Y18970--


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From: "Douglas Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Accident
Date: 13 Nov 2000 20:02:49 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Woops! I accidently sent a forward to the list. PLEASE forgive me! I =
appolgize to anyone that was offended. I will try to be more careful =
from now on.

Douglas Hepner

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Woops! I accidently =
sent a forward to=20
the list. PLEASE forgive me! I appolgize to anyone that was offended. I =
will try=20
to be more careful from now on.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Douglas=20
Hepner</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Accident
Date: 13 Nov 2000 22:49:40 EST

Douglas.

It's happened to most of us.  That sinking feeling when we have sent
something "public" instead of where we thought our uncensored comments were
going.  But it's awful good manners of you to apologize.  I just try to lay
low for a while and hope that my history list friends will forgive my rowdy
ways.

Laura Jean

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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: map
Date: 13 Nov 2000 22:13:33 -0700

Listmates,
    If you can get your hands on the September 2000 National Geographic,

 there is a really nice map in it. It folds out to basicly 24 of the
pages and
has a map on each side. The one which everyone on this list might like
is the
"Pathfinders" 1803-1848. It shows trails, explorations and sites of the
west.
Done well. If you get a chance to put your hands on one, do so.
                                                    mike.


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From: "Bob Schmidt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Deschamp(sp)family
Date: 14 Nov 2000 08:26:53 -0000

Hi Robert:
Just a note, haven't received anything yet and wondered
if I should be concerned.  Let me know, no hurry.....just
wondering.
Bob Schmidt


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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Help!
Date: 14 Nov 2000 10:30:24 -0600

Howdy folks!

I just subscribed to this list and this greenhorn has a question....

How do I set the list to "digest" mode? I can't find it in the "welcome"
message or the "help" message.

Thanks guys!!!

Dianne

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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: KNife
Date: 14 Nov 2000 11:59:48 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey all

I have a Early French Trade Knife & beaver tail sheath for sale
Go To  http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/BVR.html    to take a look..
Thanks
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

   "Knowing how is just the beginning"

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY background=3D"" bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Hey all<BR><BR>I have a Early French Trade Knife =
& beaver=20
tail sheath for sale<BR>Go To  <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/BVR.html">http://www.bright.net/~=
deforge1/BVR.html</A>   =20
</FONT><FONT size=3D3>to take a look..<BR>Thanks<BR>D<BR><BR>"Abair ach =
beagan is=20
abair gu math=20
e"<BR>            =
DOUBLE=20
EDGE FORGE<BR>   =20
http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<BR><BR>   "Knowing how is just =
the=20
beginning"</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C04E32.63827800--


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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 14 Nov 2000 12:39:06 -0600

Howdy ya'll!

I am brand spanking new to this list, live up in central Canada where we
know what cold IS, and am just getting into "living history".

Got a question for you folks. I made myself a Cheyenne tipi about 10 years
ago. I wanted to keep everything as authentic as possible but with Buffalo
hides selling upwards of $2000 a piece, I decided to go with canvas (for a
couple hundred dollars).

Now, the persona I am working-up would be a mixed-blood from the east who
partnered up with some traders, traveled up through Sioux country and ended
up planted here in the Hudson Bay Co.'s territory around 1800.

I know that there was canvas tents being used at that time but does anybody
see an "authenticity" problem with a canvas tipi?

The only canvas tipis I have seen in pictures dated from the 1870's and
later in the Dakota territory.

Thoughts?

Megwich!

Dianne

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From: "Robert Thomson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Deschamp(sp)family
Date: 14 Nov 2000 18:45:56 GMT

Bob,

Don't be worried...I just haven't mailed it yet.  I had a couple of folks
proofreading it for me and I am making corrections to things they found.  I
should send it off to you sometime this week.

Robert

----Original Message Follows----
Reply-To: [e-mail]

Hi Robert:
Just a note, haven't received anything yet and wondered
if I should be concerned.  Let me know, no hurry.....just
wondering.
Bob Schmidt


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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 14 Nov 2000 12:06:47 -0800

Canvas shouldn't be a problem.  You'd need a pair of horses, at least, to
drag along a hide tipi.  I assume you're on the Plains and away from
navigable water.
    So, you've partnered up with a trader and keep house for him?  If you
follow him around it's unlikely you'd haul around a tipi.  Tipis are really
town-houses that travel in a village culture.  Women usually stayed with
their tribe and the men came to them between trapping gigs.  The Canadian
companies allowed employees to bring their women with them but I suspect
full blown tipis were rare. (This is a question for you, Angela.)  The Metis
transported gear on their carts but what the makeup of their lodges were, I
am unclear.
    Are you trying to justify the Cheyenne lodge by the tour through Sioux
country?  Why bother.  Just say it's Blackfoot or Sarcee or Assinaboin.  A
journey so far South to get North seems more of a stretch.
    I'm curious about your dress.  You say you are mixed blood.  What tribe
contributed the Indian line?  Ojibwa?  Scot or French on the European side?
How you were raised says a lot about how you dress.  Your man will usually
live the way you dress him unless he has a strong culture of his own.
    Anyway, expect a lot of opinions.  We're an opinionated lot!

"Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 10:39 AM


> Howdy ya'll!
>
> I am brand spanking new to this list, live up in central Canada where we
> know what cold IS, and am just getting into "living history".
>
> Got a question for you folks. I made myself a Cheyenne tipi about 10 years
> ago. I wanted to keep everything as authentic as possible but with Buffalo
> hides selling upwards of $2000 a piece, I decided to go with canvas (for a
> couple hundred dollars).
>
> Now, the persona I am working-up would be a mixed-blood from the east who
> partnered up with some traders, traveled up through Sioux country and
ended
> up planted here in the Hudson Bay Co.'s territory around 1800.
>
> I know that there was canvas tents being used at that time but does
anybody
> see an "authenticity" problem with a canvas tipi?
>
> The only canvas tipis I have seen in pictures dated from the 1870's and
> later in the Dakota territory.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Megwich!
>
> Dianne
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 14 Nov 2000 12:29:30 -0800


>
> I know that there was canvas tents being used at that time but does
anybody
> see an "authenticity" problem with a canvas tipi?
>
> The only canvas tipis I have seen in pictures dated from the 1870's and
> later in the Dakota territory.


Howdy your self little lady! <G>

Larry Huber did a great job of stirring up the sparks on this one and his
post should give you lots to think about. I can keep it simple though.

Read your last sentence above first. Then read the first sentence last.
Kinda answered your own question didn't ya? <G> Do you have a problem with
the "authenticity" of your canvas tipi? Or in using one at all, much less
the style you have? The truth of the matter is that at almost any "Western"
vice "Eastern" event purporting to represent a historical "air" about it,
your tipi will be fine. I think most everyone decided a long time ago that
they were just too much fun to camp in to worry much about the fact that
they are now made of canvas and probably weren't used by mountain men (as
Larry outlines so well) all that often. Anyway those are my thoughts. <G> I
remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 14 Nov 2000 15:58:31 -0800

Try going to   http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com
It might answer some of your questions.

Linda Holley

"Best, Dianne" wrote:

> Howdy ya'll!
>
> I am brand spanking new to this list, live up in central Canada where we
> know what cold IS, and am just getting into "living history".
>
> Got a question for you folks. I made myself a Cheyenne tipi about 10 years
> ago. I wanted to keep everything as authentic as possible but with Buffalo
> hides selling upwards of $2000 a piece, I decided to go with canvas (for a
> couple hundred dollars).
>
> Now, the persona I am working-up would be a mixed-blood from the east who
> partnered up with some traders, traveled up through Sioux country and ended
> up planted here in the Hudson Bay Co.'s territory around 1800.
>
> I know that there was canvas tents being used at that time but does anybody
> see an "authenticity" problem with a canvas tipi?
>
> The only canvas tipis I have seen in pictures dated from the 1870's and
> later in the Dakota territory.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Megwich!
>
> Dianne
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 14 Nov 2000 16:29:17 EST


In a message dated 11/14/0 01:31:11 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I think most everyone decided a long time ago that
they were just too much fun to camp in to worry much about the fact that
they are now made of canvas and probably weren't used by mountain men (as
Larry outlines so well) all that often.>>

Amen and Amen to the Gospel according to Lahti.  Authentic - do you want to
stitch a whole tipi by hand?.  Fur trade tipis of hide were commonly only 12'
- 14' diameter, mostly the smaller ones (based on tipi rings I have observed)
and that is really cramped compared with a 16 - 18 footer.  That kind of
canvas didn't make it out here until quite late.  Speaking ONLY from Shoshone
tradition, they used to make them from "appropriated" covered wagon tops
(this puts us into the 1840s - 1850s) but many tipis - or more appropriately
wikki-ups - were covered with mats made of wheat grass.  Just for great,
historic(-ish), memorable living - do the tipi thing!
Richard James

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From: Jim Lockmiller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 14 Nov 2000 17:21:12 -0500

Not to sound flip but could you paint it to look like buffalo hides?

Manbear

"Best, Dianne" wrote:

> Howdy ya'll!
>
> I am brand spanking new to this list, live up in central Canada where we
> know what cold IS, and am just getting into "living history".
>
> Got a question for you folks. I made myself a Cheyenne tipi about 10 years
> ago. I wanted to keep everything as authentic as possible but with Buffalo
> hides selling upwards of $2000 a piece, I decided to go with canvas (for a
> couple hundred dollars).
>
> Now, the persona I am working-up would be a mixed-blood from the east who
> partnered up with some traders, traveled up through Sioux country and ended
> up planted here in the Hudson Bay Co.'s territory around 1800.
>
> I know that there was canvas tents being used at that time but does anybody
> see an "authenticity" problem with a canvas tipi?
>
> The only canvas tipis I have seen in pictures dated from the 1870's and
> later in the Dakota territory.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Megwich!
>
> Dianne
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 14 Nov 2000 18:45:36 -0800

Please do not.  Have seen to many of these and they look horrible.  Stay with the
canvas and you will be very close.

Linda Holley

Jim Lockmiller wrote:

> Not to sound flip but could you paint it to look like buffalo hides?
>
> Manbear
>
> "Best, Dianne" wrote:
>
> > Howdy ya'll!
> >
> > I am brand spanking new to this list, live up in central Canada where we
> > know what cold IS, and am just getting into "living history".
> >
> > Got a question for you folks. I made myself a Cheyenne tipi about 10 years
> > ago. I wanted to keep everything as authentic as possible but with Buffalo
> > hides selling upwards of $2000 a piece, I decided to go with canvas (for a
> > couple hundred dollars).
> >
> > Now, the persona I am working-up would be a mixed-blood from the east who
> > partnered up with some traders, traveled up through Sioux country and ended
> > up planted here in the Hudson Bay Co.'s territory around 1800.
> >
> > I know that there was canvas tents being used at that time but does anybody
> > see an "authenticity" problem with a canvas tipi?
> >
> > The only canvas tipis I have seen in pictures dated from the 1870's and
> > later in the Dakota territory.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Megwich!
> >
> > Dianne
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Clark & Son Mercantile
Date: 14 Nov 2000 19:28:20 EST

I've heard that  the company   Clark & Son Mercantile has been
bought out by someone.    Does anyone have an address for
the new owner, or know if there is a website for the company?
Your help is appreciated.  Thanks!

Rick Petzoldt
Traphand
[e-mail]

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clark & Son Mercantile
Date: 14 Nov 2000 18:41:05 -0600

Traphand,
The address for Clark & Son Mercantile is listed below.  You can find =
almost anything using the search engine Google at Google.com.  Just open =
the site and type in what you need in the single box and strike Search =
and it is rare that the site you need isn't displayed practically =
instantly.  I use no other search engine.
Lanney Ratcliff

Clark & Son Mercantile:
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/




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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clark & Son Mercantile
Date: 14 Nov 2000 19:46:55 -0500

Hey Lanney!
 You got stock in Google or somethin'?<G>
D

PS.. He is right, damn thing works better than any other search engine...
Amazing..

"If you can't be a good example,
then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.."


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clark & Son Mercantile
Date: 14 Nov 2000 18:49:41 -0600

Hey Lanney!
 You got stock in Google or somethin'?<G>
I wish I did.  Really I do....at least at the ipo price.
Lanney


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From: "Daniel L. Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clark & Son Mercantile
Date: 14 Nov 2000 18:02:02 -0700

<html><head><meta Name=3D'keywords' Content=3D'commtouch, pronto, mail, =
free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communicatio=
ns, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></he=
ad><body   ><div align=3D'left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT><BR=
>
---- Begin Original Message ----<BR>
 From: [e-mail]<BR>
<BR>
I've heard that =A0the company =A0 Clark & Son <BR>
Mercantile has been bought out by someone. =A0 <BR>
=A0Does anyone have an  address for<BR>
the new owner, or know if there is a website for <BR>
the company? Your help is appreciated. =A0Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
Rick Petzoldt<BR>
Traphand<BR>
[e-mail]<BR>
---- End Original Message ----<BR>
<BR>
Rick,<BR>
<BR>
Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. was Buck Conner's <BR>
brain storm about 6 or 7 years ago, originally he <BR>
was selling periods edibles (the only one around) <BR>
in the late 70's early 80's at a store he had in <BR>
Masonville, CO. called "Buckhorn Rendezvous". Not <BR>
the selection that is now available through <BR>
 from C&SM.<BR>
<BR>
Buck sold the operation in June of this year to <BR>
Paul W. Jones "Pablo" of the hist_list, the web <BR>
site is still at the same URL;<BR>
<BR>
 http://ww.teleport.com/~walking/clark/<BR>
<BR>
"Pablo" has added a few items and still carries <BR>
the largest part of the originally inventory, he <BR>
has been working on a new catalog I am told with <BR>
additional period items, staying with the <BR>
tradition that C&SM has become known for.<BR>
<BR>
As far as Buck, he's still doing the AMM thing, <BR>
writing, researching for HRD (Historical Research <BR>
& Development), working on several web sites, <BR>
plus finishing 2 years of a 3 year contract with <BR>
the telephone company before retiring. Man, it's <BR>
hard to get him free for an outing or period trip <BR>
anymore. Oh one web site should be interesting; <BR>
Iceman - Indian - Mountain Man comparsions on <BR>
edibles, equipage and clothing, I'm sure he'll <BR>
sound out when completed.<BR>
<BR>
In fact you don't see "Pablo" or "Buck" on the <BR>=

list as busy as the pair are, I use to talk to <BR>
them by e-mail every few days - now it's every  <BR>
few weeks.<BR>
<BR>
That's the whole nut, hope that helps.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=3Dleft><TT>Later, <BR>
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR>
Research & Documentation for: <BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
________________________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
_____________________________________________ </TT><br><TT>Sign up for =
a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></block=
quote></div></font></body></html>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 14 Nov 2000 20:36:20 EST


In a message dated 11/14/0 03:21:27 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Not to sound flip but could you paint it to look like buffalo hides?
>>

I've seen them show up at Rendezvous several times.  Some more tastefully
done than others.  For Painting - see Laubins' book.  Paint on wet canvas.
R. James

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From: "Daniel L. Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: www.savethemissouri.org
Date: 14 Nov 2000 18:59:28 -0700

<html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body   ><div align='left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT>Received this and tried to send the other day and <BR>
for some reason it didn't fly !<BR>
<BR>
Concho.<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message -----<BR>
www.savethemissouri.org<BR>
<BR>
I haven't looked at this in detail yet but <BR>
thought I'd forward it...<BR>
<BR>
The pitch is:<BR>
<BR>
Save the Missouri River and Endangered Species!<BR>
<BR>
Speak Out Now to Save the Missouri River and<BR>
Endangered Species. The US Army Corp of Engineers <BR>
is in the process of reviewing its Missouri River <BR>
Master Manual, which will determine how the Corps <BR>
manages water flow from the dams on the river for <BR>
the next half century. As recommended by the US <BR>
Fish and Wildlife Service in its Biological <BR>
Opinion, the Corps must implement a "spring <BR>
rise," increasing water flows from the last<BR>
dam on the river in May and June to prevent the <BR>
extinction of three endangered and threatened<BR>
species.<BR>
<BR>
Email TODAY to urge the Army Corps of Engineers <BR>
to do what is right for the people of the <BR>
Missouri River Basin and its wildlife by adopting <BR>
the recommendations of the Fish and Wildlife <BR>
Service in its preferred alternative for the <BR>
Missouri River Master Manual.<BR>
<BR>
You can also get information on how to mail, fax, <BR>
or phone your opinion. For more information, <BR>
visit American Rivers' Missouri River Campaign <BR>
Web site.<BR>
------- End of forwarded message -------<BR>
<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Later, <BR>
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR>
Research & Documentation for: <BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
________________________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
_____________________________________________ </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>

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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 14 Nov 2000 20:15:39 -0700

Welcome to the list, Dianne! I live in Alberta, so we're practically
neighbours ;-). (I'm assuming from your e-mail address that you're in
Manitoba.)

Don't feel guilty for using canvas--like other folks have said, it's a
widely-accepted compromise. I also have evidence for tipis being used by
fur traders of the HBC &  North West Co., particularly c. 1800. The
Napoleonic wars diverted the English supply of tent canvas to the British
army (the HBC had to get special export permits for trade guns!), and as a
result, they were forced to buy tents from local Natives. One case that
springs to mind is a trade at the HBC's Edmonton House in the mid-1790's,
for Blackfoot tipis. Also, NWC voyageurs spent Manitoba winters 'billeted'
with local Natives, e.g. Daniel Williams Harmon's men in the Swan River
area, c. 1800. Although they were guests, they spent many months living in
tipis.

After about 1840, Alexander Ross describes Red River Metis living in tipis
when travelling; unfortunately, I have no data for earlier decades.

  >Now, the persona I am working-up would be a mixed-blood from the east who
 >partnered up with some traders, traveled up through Sioux country and ended
 >up planted here in the Hudson Bay Co.'s territory around 1800.

Unless you have a personal reason for choosing this character, I suggest
you choose somebody whose mixed heritage would be more typical of Manitoba
at this time, i.e. Cree, Assiniboine, Ojibway, etc. You'll find it's more
fun, & WAY easier to research. There were Metis in Manitoba, even at this
early date, if that's what you're concerned about. The first example that
springs to mind is Marguerite McKay McLoughlin, daughter of Swiss fur
trader Jean-Etienne Wadin. She married Dr. John McLoughlin, and went on to
play a significant role in the NWC & HBC at Rainy Lake, Thunder Bay (i.e.
Ft. William) and Fort Vancouver.


Larry Huber suggested:
 > Your man will usually live the way you dress him unless he has a strong
culture of his own.

In Canada at this time, it was almost unheard-of for fur traders to adopt
Native dress. (I know of only one  case where this happened, and the man
involved was criticized by his superiors for 'going Native'.) The North
West Company supplied clothing for all their employees & their families,
with the exception of shoes (i.e. moccasins) and some other items which
were usually made out west.

If you'd like some reading about the Manitoba fur trade c. 1800, I'd
recommend:

Harmon, Daniel Williams. Sixteen Years in the Indian Country : The Journal
of Daniel Williams Harmon, 1800-1816. W. Kaye Lamb, ed. Macmillan :
Toronto, 1957.  *This book is well worth the search!*

Henry, Alexander (the Younger). The Journal of Alexander Henry The Younger
1799-1814. Barry Gough, ed. The Champlain Society/University of Toronto
Press : Toronto, 1988. ISBN 0-9693425-0-0. *Vol. 1 includes his journal
from the Red River & Pembina R. area.*

Gates, Charles M. Five Fur Traders of the Northwest : Being the Narrative
of Peter Pond and the Diaries of John Macdonell, Archibald N. McLeod, High
Faries, and Thomas Connor. Minnesota Historical Society : St. Paul,
Minnesota, 1965. *Read John Macdonnel and A.N. McLeod.*

Anyway, hopes this helps, Dianne!

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred







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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 14 Nov 2000 21:01:03 -0700

Hi Dianne,

Walt Marten has a reference of a tipi carried by the Lewis and Clark during
the expedition 1804-1805.  If you are interested in this reference source.
I can give you his email address off line.  If you eliminate the flap
extensions on a Cheyenne tipi you have a basic Sioux tipi.  If you pitch the
tipi poles in reverse and face the door south you have the western most
Sioux tipi.  The Nakota or Assiniboine.  Good luck on your project.  I think
it is a viable one.


Walt
Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana




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From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 14 Nov 2000 22:02:52 -0700

Don't know if anybody's mentioned it yet, but Allen Chronister had an
article on this very topic in the last Museum of the Fur Trade
Quarterly.  Good research.  In short, he gives evidence that cloth tipi
covers can be documented as early as 1846 (Lakotas).  There was another
article on canvas tipi covers in the MFTQ Fall '84.  And Marcy mentions
canvas tipi covers in "Prairie Traveler" (1859)
http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/carrie/kancoll/books/marcy/index.html.

This pushes the documentable date back earlier than 1870's, but doesn't
quite get you to 1800.  If you're a stickler for authenticity and want to
document cloth tipi's that early, you could try looking in HBC records for
huge purchases of cloth by indians - a tipi would require - what - 50 yards
or more?
-Dean

At 12:39 PM 11/14/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>Howdy ya'll!
>
>I am brand spanking new to this list, live up in central Canada where we
>know what cold IS, and am just getting into "living history".
>
>Got a question for you folks. I made myself a Cheyenne tipi about 10 years
>ago. I wanted to keep everything as authentic as possible but with Buffalo
>hides selling upwards of $2000 a piece, I decided to go with canvas (for a
>couple hundred dollars).
>
>Now, the persona I am working-up would be a mixed-blood from the east who
>partnered up with some traders, traveled up through Sioux country and ended
>up planted here in the Hudson Bay Co.'s territory around 1800.
>
>I know that there was canvas tents being used at that time but does anybody
>see an "authenticity" problem with a canvas tipi?
>
>The only canvas tipis I have seen in pictures dated from the 1870's and
>later in the Dakota territory.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>Megwich!
>
>Dianne
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tip
Date: 15 Nov 2000 08:31:29 -0600

Thankin' ya'll fer yer kind opinions and thoughts on my canvas covered tipi.
I'm going to stick with it as it is. It has been all down through the
Dakotas visiting my Sioux friends with it and really enjoy it.

Ta answer a few folks questions and comments.....

Shoots-the-Prairie said "Just say it's Blackfoot or Sarcee"

Well, ya'll know that there were different cuts of covering and different
sets to the poles depending on which tribe you was from. My 14-footer is
identifiable as Cheyenne from a half mile away.

Shoots-the-Prairie asked "What tribe contributed the Indian line?"

Hodenoshone (Iroquois), Seneca Nation, Beaver Clan. Don't know much about
ancestry - hunting party found me in woods when I was just a child, grew up
in Beaver Clan lodge. Must be some European in there somewhere (blue eyes
and sandy blond hair)  but there is no doubt where the loyalties lie.
Hodenoshone is a matriarchal culture and the women don't take no guff from
no one!

Lots of details (dates, people and places) to be filled in yet but me and
hubby and a few others came west in the fall of the year, the year the
French invaded Iroquois country and burned all our winter provisions and our
villages. Seemed better to get away from all the fighting and leave what
little food there was for the rest so some of us worked our way west
visiting all our old trading partners and taking advantage of their
hospitality. They was all interested and worried about what was going on
too. We got as far west as the Missouri by the second winter and things was
pretty good there. My old man couldn't sit still and got involved in the fur
trade up the Red River. After a bit we moved our base camp up to the
Winnipeg River. My old man got sick and died a few years back. I don't know
where my People ended up after we left and I don't want to go back where
there's so many whitemen and so much fighting, so I just stayed put. Got
lots of friends among the Anishinabe here and I now do what's needful to
provide for myself. I hunt some (damned fine shot), fish a bit, and do some
trapping. I make things from furs and hides and I trade mostly with the
H.B.C. on the Winnipeg. Lots of game here - no need to go hungry and the
winters are cold but there's lots of cover. My camp sits where the prairies
meet the forest and there's lots of company come up and down the river.

Thank ya'll fer yer comments. Be seeing ya next time yer up the river!

Na Ya Whe

Dianne








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From: "Terrance Luff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: tipi cover mixbloods
Date: 15 Nov 2000 21:04:37 MST

  HO DEAN
   if you looking for halfbreed build up , i would agree with angle on
picking metis, it will all so open many ave you could build your peson on.
with the metis cloth covers on thier tipis was used at early date
there has been artis that have pictured halfbloods with cloth tipis in 1810.
metis can open alot of trade material use sooner than the average trade
circulation for the fur people.  if you do choose the metis way please get a
hold of me and i will see that you get all the help and info on the plains
metis of the fur trade. we hold alot of info that we have gethered over the
years on the hiverant metis of the fur trade.
    all so we have hiverant metis that have been buckskinners sence 1940s
and a group that is for metis and friends in bucksinning.
                   cavalier de poney


preserve and research metis history
bring metis and friends of metis
into traditions of hiverant metis


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: some thoughts on mixed bloods aka metis
Date: 15 Nov 2000 22:18:11 -0800

at the risk of kicking over a hornets nest.  I have a few thoughts to add to
the debate.
I think some of the comments that have been made on this subject.   border
on  racist.  not unlike some of the "racial chest beating" that goes on with
some ethnic groups in the U.S. today.   to say; the metis did this, or the
metis did that.  or to claim  that every person worthy of that title,
considered  himself or herself  part of a sovereign race.  I believe at
best, is pure speculation.
one exeption might be however.   there may have been some sort of racial
unity among the red river metis people.  even with that in mind.   was every
mixed blood that ventured in to the shinning mountians, or even one out of
ten,  from there?
 I seriously doubt it.   most are from scatered areas of eastern Canada and
the  great lakes.  I believe that people of mixed native American and
European parentage to be of the anglo presence in the west,  and I'm sure
they did to.
 just some thoughts; Tom
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Walt Foster <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 6:15 PM
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: "tap"tap"tap"
>
>
> > Hey,
> > I send out a controversial e-mail and you guys sleep through it? Ok, try
> > this one,
> > Walt Foster was incorrect concerning the building of Fort Hall, they
were
> > not"Metise",
> > they were "Mormons".  Ha Ha!.
> >  YMOS
> > Ole # 718
> >
> > Good yoke Ole,
> >
> > I am glad you waited until after Veterans Day and the pressure of the
vote
> > was off to stir up the campfire with your tapping.  I think I can make a
> > pretty good case for the Metis in the American Fur Trade in Montana and
> the
> > northern Rockies.  Starting with Charbono in 1804.  Followed by La Roche
> in
> > 1805.  At my age the easy way is to start a study group at the Peter
Yegen
> > Jr. Yellowstone County Museum.  The one nearby where Magpie flies into
> > Billings.  Chittenden does a pretty good job as a scientific historian
in
> > developing the background of  the Wyeth attempt to take cuts in the
> already
> > established contesting for the supremacy sought and won by the American
> Fur
> > Company when it bought out the rendezvous system in 1834 and closed it
> down
> > 3 years later.  Metis were everywhere around here and I think they were
in
> > your area also.  My interests are in the upper Missouri and the environs
> > around what is now called Yellowstone Park....the hub of the northern
> rocky
> > mountain fur trade in the USA.  Good hunting weather here now.   Cold.
> Just
> > right for the winterers.  Maybe so a paper will come out of this.  This
> > winter.  I am volunteering on Mondays at the museum for a while.  I will
> be
> > doing something to keep advancing this point about Metis involvement in
> the
> > rocky mountain fur trade.  Many sayings attributed to the mountain men
> > stemmed from the Metis working in the fur trade on the American side of
> the
> > border.  Thanks for building up the fire light.
> >
> >
> > Walt
> > Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
> > Clark Bottom Rendezvous
> > Yellowstone Canoe Camp
> > On the Lewis & Clark Trail
> > Park City, Montana
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>


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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi cover mixbloods
Date: 16 Nov 2000 00:16:46 -0800

Okay.  I'll bite.  What artists pictured Metis with canvas covered tipis in
1810?  At the rate they were taking buffalo for pemmican there should have
been a lot of hides around.  Hides are free, canvas isn't.  Women made the
tipis and their labor was free too(contemporary PC attitudes adjusted to the
early 19th century).  I'm not saying it didn't happen, just need specific
references to educate me.

Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:04 PM


>   HO DEAN
>    if you looking for halfbreed build up , i would agree with angle on
> picking metis, it will all so open many ave you could build your peson on.
> with the metis cloth covers on thier tipis was used at early date
> there has been artis that have pictured halfbloods with cloth tipis in
1810.
> metis can open alot of trade material use sooner than the average trade
> circulation for the fur people.  if you do choose the metis way please get
a
> hold of me and i will see that you get all the help and info on the plains
> metis of the fur trade. we hold alot of info that we have gethered over
the
> years on the hiverant metis of the fur trade.
>     all so we have hiverant metis that have been buckskinners sence 1940s
> and a group that is for metis and friends in bucksinning.
>                    cavalier de poney
>
>
> preserve and research metis history
> bring metis and friends of metis
> into traditions of hiverant metis
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi cover mixbloods
Date: 16 Nov 2000 06:44:12 -0800

Thanks for asking this question.  I have been "lurking" in the background
wondering about this.

Linda Holley

Larry Huber wrote:

> Okay.  I'll bite.  What artists pictured Metis with canvas covered tipis in
> 1810?  At the rate they were taking buffalo for pemmican there should have
> been a lot of hides around.  Hides are free, canvas isn't.  Women made the
> tipis and their labor was free too(contemporary PC attitudes adjusted to the
> early 19th century).  I'm not saying it didn't happen, just need specific
> references to educate me.
>
> Larry Huber
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Terrance Luff <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:04 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: tipi cover mixbloods
>
> >   HO DEAN
> >    if you looking for halfbreed build up , i would agree with angle on
> > picking metis, it will all so open many ave you could build your peson on.
> > with the metis cloth covers on thier tipis was used at early date
> > there has been artis that have pictured halfbloods with cloth tipis in
> 1810.
> > metis can open alot of trade material use sooner than the average trade
> > circulation for the fur people.  if you do choose the metis way please get
> a
> > hold of me and i will see that you get all the help and info on the plains
> > metis of the fur trade. we hold alot of info that we have gethered over
> the
> > years on the hiverant metis of the fur trade.
> >     all so we have hiverant metis that have been buckskinners sence 1940s
> > and a group that is for metis and friends in bucksinning.
> >                    cavalier de poney
> >
> >
> > preserve and research metis history
> > bring metis and friends of metis
> > into traditions of hiverant metis
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > http://profiles.msn.com.
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 08:02:25 -0600

Beausejour ya'll.

Got a question fer ya.

What is the proper types of rope and cord for pre-1840 and where do ya find
it?

When I made my tipi 10 winters back, I couldn't find ANYTHING that wasn't
synthetic. I need some 1/2 inch rope for tying poles, etc., and some cord
like heavy butchers cord. Be nice to find it in Canada, but whatever.....

Thanks ya'll.

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 08:19:00 -0800

Dianne,

Jute is available if you look hard.  I use it to tie together my gear.
Unwoven it makes dandy tinder for flint and steel.  Try Clark and Son
website.
A party of AMM brothers in San Diego county make rope out of hemp.  They've
a rope-making rig that twists twine together.  The resulting cordage is
again twisted to make thicker rope.  Ask for Pat Quilter online at this
list.

Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 6:02 AM


> Beausejour ya'll.
>
> Got a question fer ya.
>
> What is the proper types of rope and cord for pre-1840 and where do ya
find
> it?
>
> When I made my tipi 10 winters back, I couldn't find ANYTHING that wasn't
> synthetic. I need some 1/2 inch rope for tying poles, etc., and some cord
> like heavy butchers cord. Be nice to find it in Canada, but whatever.....
>
> Thanks ya'll.
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: some thoughts on mixed bloods aka metis Tomas Ballstaedt
Date: 16 Nov 2000 09:24:35 -0700


Hello Tom

On page 889 of Chittenden's Volume 2 The American Fur Trade of the Far West:

 "Dorion, Pierre, a half-breed, and son of the Dorion who accompanied Lewis
and Clark on a portion of their expedition across the continent.  He was
hired by Hunt as an interpreter and joined the overland expedition with his
Indian wife and two children."

Walt


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 11:27:40 EST


--part1_9c.8fc028e.274564fc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

You sure it's hemp.  Hemp isn't grown, at least in America legally.

--part1_9c.8fc028e.274564fc_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT  SIZE=2>You sure it's hemp.  Hemp isn't grown, at least in America legally.</FONT></HTML>

--part1_9c.8fc028e.274564fc_boundary--

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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 11:37:25 -0500

Hemp twin & ready made rope, hemp canvas and other hemp products are readily
available, legally. .. It is inported from overseas.. And it IS NOT the same
stuff you smoke..
 I have a pair of hemp britches that I have had for 4 yrs now.. They wear
like IRON.. And the closest I have come to smoking them is when I get a
might close to a fire..<G>
D

"If you can't be a good example,
then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.."


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 09:02:44 -0800

 http://members.tripod.com/~HuashengGroup/huasheng.htm

http://www.hemptech.com/links/cats/Cordage/Twine/

The two links above will take you to two sites that offer hemp fabric (#1)
and several companies that offer hemp cordage (#2). The second site lists a
company in Spokane Washington that handles hemp rope. Good luck.

Capt. Lahti'


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 8:37 AM


> Hemp twin & ready made rope, hemp canvas and other hemp products are
readily
> available, legally. .. It is inported from overseas.. And it IS NOT the
same
> stuff you smoke..
>  I have a pair of hemp britches that I have had for 4 yrs now.. They wear
> like IRON.. And the closest I have come to smoking them is when I get a
> might close to a fire..<G>
> D
>
> "If you can't be a good example,
> then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.."
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: hemp fabric and cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 09:32:26 -0800

http://members.tripod.com/~HuashengGroup/huasheng.htm

http://www.hemptech.com/links/cats/Cordage/Twine/

The two links above will take you to two sites that offer hemp fabric (#1)
and several companies that offer hemp cordage (#2). The second site lists a
company in Spokane Washington that handles hemp rope. Good luck.

Capt. Lahti'




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 12:40:46 EST


--part1_7f.c26502b.2745761e_boundary
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What we call hemp rope can, at least here in Okla., be bought in the hardware
store and 1/4 inch rope at Wal-Mart.

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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=2>What we call hemp rope can, at least here in Okla., be bought in the hardware <BR>store and 1/4 inch rope at Wal-Mart.</FONT></HTML>

--part1_7f.c26502b.2745761e_boundary--

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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 10:56:38 -0700

I don't know if it's historically correct, but manila rope looks way better
than yellow polypropylene. Usually modern manila has one colored strand
running through it, but you can find some without that, especially if you
ask for it. Here in Calgary, we found some at a specialized store called
Alberta Chain & Rigging, which supplies industrial needs. You might find a
similar shop in Winnipeg, because of the shipping traffic on the Red River.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

P.S. I've found shockingly few references to rope in the Canadian fur trade.



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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi cover mixbloods
Date: 16 Nov 2000 10:51:15 -0700

  "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]> wrote:
 >Okay.  I'll bite.  What artists pictured Metis with canvas covered tipis
in 1810?
I'd like to know too; there are so few paintings from the fur trade at this
time that I'd be thrilled to discover a new one.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 13:52:58 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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"be bought in the hardware store and 1/4 inch rope at Wal-Mart. "

I believe that may be jute or sisal... HTere really is no replacement =
for hemp rope... It is what was used on sailing ships and when properly =
cared for, last for damnedever..
D


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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D2>"be bought in the hardware store and =
1/4 inch=20
rope at Wal-Mart.</FONT> "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I believe that may be jute or sisal... HTere really =
is no=20
replacement for hemp rope... It is what was used on sailing ships and =
when=20
properly cared for, last for damnedever..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>D</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 14:10:34 EST

Trap'r, et al, Although Hemp may not be grown here legally, there is a huge
amount of imported goods that are legally for sale here... check out
www.hemp.com and you'll get a list of products, stores, etc.   Barn

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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Manilla rope.
Date: 16 Nov 2000 19:28:13 GMT

Coils of Manilla rope show up on lists of trade goods, going west to the
Rocky Mountains.  Examples can be found using Dean's website.



Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 12:30:42 -0700

<html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body   ><div align='left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT><BR>
---- Begin Original Message ----<BR>
 From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]><BR>
Sent: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:56:38 -0700<BR>
<BR>
I don't know if it's historically correct, but<BR>
manila rope looks way better <BR>
than yellow polypropylene. Usually modern manila<BR>
has one colored strand <BR>
running through it, but you can find some without<BR>
that, especially if you <BR>
ask for it. Here in Calgary, we found some at a<BR>
specialized store called <BR>
Alberta Chain & Rigging, which supplies<BR>
industrial needs. You might find a <BR>
similar shop in Winnipeg, because of the shipping<BR>
traffic on the Red River.<BR>
<BR>
Your humble & obedient servant,<BR>
Angela Gottfred<BR>
<BR>
---- End Original Message ----<BR>
<BR>
At some of the bigger events from the F&I War to<BR>
the Civil War here in the lower 48, quite often<BR>
you'll find a "rope maker" with his machine,<BR>
generally the prices are very inexpensive. Saw<BR>
these folks at Ft. deChartre and Ft. Osage a few<BR>
years ago. Look around in ads in Muzzleloader and<BR>
Muzzle Blast.<BR>
<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Take care, <BR>
Barry "Buck" Conner <BR>
Resource & Documentation for:<BR>
___________________________________ <BR>
 HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
______________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ <BR>
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ <BR>
___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! __<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
 </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 14:35:34 EST

> Jute is available if you look hard.  I use it to tie together my gear.
>  Unwoven it makes dandy tinder for flint and steel.

Jute twine is commonly available in most hardware stores and garden centers.
It is sold as garden twine and can be had in rolls either natural or colored
a light green.
It's very coarse and pretty well simulates hand twisted cordage.

>  A party of AMM brothers in San Diego county make rope out of hemp.

Hemp grows wild in the US and, in Illinois at least, is commonly sprayed for
along rural roadways and fencerows.  There is also a false hemp, which I
believe is called dogbane, that also grows wild.  You can twist your own
cordage from milkweed, thistle, the inner bark of elm and basswood, and
several other materials, though it takes a lot of time until you become
proficient.  Then it still takes a lot of time, but can be done while
watching TV in the evenings, or some other non-productive time.

>  They've a rope-making rig that twists twine together.  The resulting
cordage is
>  again twisted to make thicker rope.

I believe I have posted this before.  These rope machines are cumbersome.  I
can twist a rope quicker by hand in the time that it takes to load one of
them.  This info should be in the archives.  It only requires 2 six inch
stick of wood or dowels, and the rope is as good or better quality than that
made on the machine.  It can also be made using one dowel and a tree, but is
more cumbersome that way.

Dave Kanger

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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 14:40:20 -0500

Dave,
 You are dead right... I have dogbane here that makes great cordage.. There
is a Brother in Indiana that has a fantastic rope he made from basswood...
It is a nice piece and a wonderment.. I have a 25' of hand twisted 1/4" or
so hemp rope. It is well greased and has been a constant companion for near
8 yrs... With no real signs of wear..'
D



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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tipis & mixed-bloods
Date: 16 Nov 2000 14:03:36 -0600

Wow! This List is darned impressive. I am amazed at the dedication and
research that has shown up in the responses to my posting about canvas
covered tipis and "mixed-bloods"!

A couple of things I will throw back into the fray....

First, concerning the Metis persona cavalier de poney suggested.

The reason I chose the Seneca background is because I sought refuge with an
old woman on the Grand River Reserve often and over many years when I was
young (1950's) - it was a better place to be than "home".  "My Seneca
Grandmother" was raised by her Grandmother, so most of what I learned as a
child dated from the early 1800's and is NOT found in history books. In
fact, by comparing notes with my (Iroquois) contemporaries, many of my
"teachings" predate Handsome Lake by about 30 years. These "old ways", or at
least as much as I was taught, mean a lot to me and I want to roll them into
the persona. (Heck, they are going to sneak in anyway because they are how I
live my life, so I might as well be up-front about it!)

Now, having lived in Manitoba since the mid 1970's and having been involved
in the Native community here for most of that time, the term Metis is as
loaded as a keg of gun powder! I agree with Thomas Ballstaedt - I'd just as
soon NOT get in to that, either today or 200 years ago. By common use
(today) Metis implies French/Native; by Metis self-definition (years ago) is
was a "cultural" classification - French/Native/Catholic. By both Metis and
common definition, anyone else is "half-breed" with the historical
connotation of being somewhat LESS "value" than white. (Sorry for the racial
slurs.)

Among the Iroquois, who was and wasn't a member of the tribe was decided by
the tribe (and still is, much to the chagrin of the U.S. government).
Inheritance was matrilineal but adoption was every bit as respected as
"membership by birth". In the old days, it carried a lot of weight because
an adopted member was chosen for a reason - usually something about their
character - and they were often chosen to fill the role of someone who had
died. Some who came to the Longhouse lived there without ever being formally
adopted and never gained the status of a "real person".

Among the Iroquois people, trade routes existed throughout the eastern and
central part of North America long before the whiteman. Indian tobacco was
traded as far west as the western plains. Minnesota soapstone (for pipes)
and turquoise from the southwest was not uncommon in Iroquois country. I
have heard it claimed by my People (though don't know if it is documented)
that Iroquois traders were found on the Pacific coast when the west coast of
Canada was "discovered"

I am happy with my persona and I think I am content to live with my canvas
covered tipi and put up with the occasional challenge. At least, from the
comments on the list, it isn't TOO far out of line.

(Finally decided on a monichre - Jin-o-ta-ka - Seneca for Muskrat, kind of
appropriate I think!)

Thanks all.

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hemp fabric and cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 15:42:52 EST

Sisal was mentioned  but no further commentary.  Is anything wrong with that?
 I making brooms, I have tied with both jute and sisal and found sisal to be
far superior.  It was used at one time for haying and was in fact called
"baling twine" in the times of my youth (O.K. - so that was a long time ago -
I know.)  But it still shows up in farm stores.  Jute shows up in garden
shops - sometimes green and sometimes natural.  I have even bought it out of
MacFrugals and All-A-Dollar.

Richard James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hemp fabric and cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 15:57:43 EST

> Sisal was mentioned  but no further commentary.  Is anything wrong with
that?
>   I making brooms, I have tied with both jute and sisal and found sisal to
be
> It was used at one time for haying and was in fact called "baling twine"


Much of the baling twine sold is impregnated with rat poison to keep the
animals from gnawing through the twine.  It really isn't proper material for
ropes and such which will be handled with bare hands and perhaps transferred
to the mouth or a food source.
If you are going to use it, try to find some that isn't protected.

Dave Kanger

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 13:42:51 -0800

Dave is correct, a rope making machine is more-or-less cumbersome and not
something you would take on an expedition. We have one that stands about 5
feet tall for convenience in use (no crouching) and mine which is about 2
feet tall to fit in my old small car. Both are very simple, using several
planks and a few iron hooks to accomplish the task of twisting three bundles
of twine until they wind themselves into a rope. It takes only several
minutes to load leisurely while explaining to visitors and 5-10 minutes to
wind up a 30-40 foot piece of rope.
I missed the earlier posting about how to do the same thing with 2 small
sticks, which certainly sounds more portable and basic. Perhaps Dave can
give us a short recap.
Best Regards
Yr Ob't S'vt
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 11:36 AM


> Jute is available if you look hard.  I use it to tie together my gear.
>  Unwoven it makes dandy tinder for flint and steel.

Jute twine is commonly available in most hardware stores and garden centers.

It is sold as garden twine and can be had in rolls either natural or colored

a light green.
It's very coarse and pretty well simulates hand twisted cordage.

>  A party of AMM brothers in San Diego county make rope out of hemp.

Hemp grows wild in the US and, in Illinois at least, is commonly sprayed for

along rural roadways and fencerows.  There is also a false hemp, which I
believe is called dogbane, that also grows wild.  You can twist your own
cordage from milkweed, thistle, the inner bark of elm and basswood, and
several other materials, though it takes a lot of time until you become
proficient.  Then it still takes a lot of time, but can be done while
watching TV in the evenings, or some other non-productive time.

>  They've a rope-making rig that twists twine together.  The resulting
cordage is
>  again twisted to make thicker rope.

I believe I have posted this before.  These rope machines are cumbersome.  I

can twist a rope quicker by hand in the time that it takes to load one of
them.  This info should be in the archives.  It only requires 2 six inch
stick of wood or dowels, and the rope is as good or better quality than that

made on the machine.  It can also be made using one dowel and a tree, but is

more cumbersome that way.

Dave Kanger

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 14:23:13 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Actually rope is not hard to make with some good yarn or cords to work =
with. Those web sites I posted earlier would be a good source for the =
raw materials and a scout book will show you how to make a rope =
"twister" though TOF has explained an easy way to make rope with out any =
props other than an anchor post and a twisting stick. I got to try that =
some day myself. Some honest to god hand made hemp rope would be prime =
do'ins.=20

Capt. Lahti'
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Dennis Miles=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 10:52 AM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage


  "be bought in the hardware store and 1/4 inch rope at Wal-Mart. "

  I believe that may be jute or sisal... HTere really is no replacement =
for hemp rope... It is what was used on sailing ships and when properly =
cared for, last for damnedever..
  D


------=_NextPart_000_01A0_01C04FD8.C0ED95E0
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    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4207.2601" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Actually rope is not hard to make with some good =
yarn or cords=20
to work with. Those web sites I posted earlier would be a good source =
for the=20
raw materials and a scout book will show you how to make a rope =
"twister" though=20
TOF has explained an easy way to make rope with out any props other than =
an=20
anchor post and a twisting stick. I got to try that some day myself. =
Some honest=20
to god hand made hemp rope would be prime do'ins. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Dennis=20
  Miles</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 16, =
2000 10:52=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Period =
ropes=20
  & cordage</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D2>"be bought in the hardware store =
and 1/4 inch=20
  rope at Wal-Mart.</FONT> "</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I believe that may be jute or sisal... HTere =
really is no=20
  replacement for hemp rope... It is what was used on sailing ships and =
when=20
  properly cared for, last for damnedever..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>D</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_01A0_01C04FD8.C0ED95E0--



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 18:07:26 EST

> I missed the earlier posting about how to do the same thing with 2 small
>  sticks, which certainly sounds more portable and basic. Perhaps Dave can
>  give us a short recap.

Pat,
I am always amazed that those who make rope do not know this simple method.
I showed it to the ropemaker at Fort des Chartres a couple of years ago, and
he was bumfoozeled.  I make small hemp cords to hang my powder horns from,
starting with hemp thread.  Also can make any size rope, depending on what
you start with.

Take two 6 inch dowels. (Sticks work in the field)  Tie your cord to one of
them.  Stick them in the ground 3X the length you want your rope to be.  Loop
your cord over the far one, back around the near one, and tie it off at the
far one.  You now have 3 stands of equal length.

Have someone take each dowel in hand.  Keep the cord taut and each start
turning clockwise.  Keep turning until the strands just start to knot up.
Then pull TIGHT to set it.
(of course, you know what will happen if you relax the rope when it starts to
knot)

Now, loop this over the far and over the near dowels again.  You will again
have three strands to work with.  Draw them tight again, and this time, both
of you turn counter-clockwise, until it starts to knot up again.  The more
you twist it, the tighter rope you will have.  Pull hard to set the rope
again.  Slide it off the dowels and whip the ends.  You now have a
double-layed, nine strand rope.  With jute twine, it will be about 5/16ths,
and with binder's twine it will be about 3/8 to 1/2.  To make a larger
diameter rope, start with 6 strands instead of 3 and you will double the
diameter.  (Note: your rope will be slightly shorter than the measured
distance because of the twisting.  You might want to leave extra to allow for
that.)

This method can be done alone by using a stob on a tree instead of a partner;
but it gets a mite cumbersome when trying to do the second set of looping.

If everyone in your party has a 6 foot piece of rope with a loop spliced in
one end and a toggle backspliced into the other, then you can string them
together if necessary.  ^ men X six 6 foot ropes gives you a 36 foot rope
that is pretty strong.

Another trick:  How do you tie off your rope, descend and cliff, and recover
your rope at the bottom without climbing up again.  Tie your rope to a tree,
and tie a sheepshank into the rope.  One of the center strands is non-load
bearing.  Cut it.  Keep tension on the rope.  Descend the cliff.  When you
get to the bottom, shake the rope.  The sheepshank will unknot.  Your rope
will fall down to you, leaving only a short piece at the top tied to the
tree.  I got caught on a set of bookcliffs (don't ask why) and couldn't get
down.  This method saved my butt.

Lots of neat things you can do with rope.  Don't know how many of them are
period correct, but there had to be some ex-anchor clankers that turned out
to be mountain men when they ended their sea service.  Almost all knew knots
and splices, which  have been around for centuries.  Actually, there is a
pretty substantial prize available if anyone invents a "new" knot that has
heretofore been unknown.

Dave Kanger
(Used to be a member of the "100 Knot Club" from memory.  I can barely tie my
shoes now. )

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From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hemp
Date: 16 Nov 2000 17:23:47 -0600

"Hemp grows wild in the US and, in Illinois at least, is commonly sprayed
for
along rural roadways and fencerows" Dave Kanger

Now you went and told everybody our secret.

Randy Hedden


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 16 Nov 2000 17:12:58 -0700



Good Posts on the subjects.  And wasn't old Hugh Glass supposed to be an
ex-pirate or something?
RB



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From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rope making device
Date: 16 Nov 2000 17:16:29 -0700

Pat,

Check out some of the Boy Scout sites and you'll discover a simple rope
making device that is quite easy to use and very portable. I've used mne
often and it does a great job.

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party, #1784

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hemp
Date: 16 Nov 2000 19:37:06 EST

[e-mail] writes:
> Now you went and told everybody our secret.

They need a reason to understand why we act the way we do.

TOF

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From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: mixed bloods
Date: 16 Nov 2000 23:29:19 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C05025.0B103F00
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Walt
there are other  fur trade era half breeds such as George Druilliard of =
Lewis and Clark fame and the two men who were with him when he met his =
untimely demise. As well as Thiery goddin and his son Pierre who =
deserted Ogden on the weber and went with Gardner's men.  or antione =
clement and his little brother Pierre, who came out with captain Stuart. =
My point is, credit for their individual achievements should be duly =
noted.   however their role in fur trade history should not be =
exaggerated beyond it's proper scope.
sincerely; Tom

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C05025.0B103F00
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Walt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>there are other  fur trade =
era half=20
breeds such as George Druilliard of Lewis and Clark fame and the two men =
who=20
were with him when he met his untimely demise. As well as Thiery goddin =
and his=20
son Pierre who deserted Ogden on the weber and went with Gardner's =
men.  or=20
antione clement and his little brother Pierre, who came out with captain =
Stuart.=20
My point is, credit for their individual achievements should be duly=20
noted.   however their role in fur trade history should not be =
exaggerated=20
beyond it's proper scope.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>sincerely; =
Tom</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C05025.0B103F00--


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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Site UPDATE (Self Serveing Announcement)
Date: 17 Nov 2000 09:08:48 -0500

Hia ll.. Pardon once again my intrusion.. But I have 6 new knives on the
site today. Take a look, Christmas is coming..
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1



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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mixed bloods
Date: 17 Nov 2000 07:41:45 -0700

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3057291705_46481_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Tom,
Well said!
YMOS
Ole #718
----------


Hi Walt
there are other  fur trade era half breeds such as George Druilliard of
Lewis and Clark fame and the two men who were with him when he met his
untimely demise. As well as Thiery goddin and his son Pierre who deserted
Ogden on the weber and went with Gardner's men.  or antione clement and his
little brother Pierre, who came out with captain Stuart. My point is, credit
for their individual achievements should be duly noted.   however their role
in fur trade history should not be exaggerated beyond it's proper scope.
sincerely; Tom


--MS_Mac_OE_3057291705_46481_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: mixed bloods </TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#B8B8B8">
Tom,<BR>
Well said!<BR>
YMOS<BR>
Ole #718<BR>
----------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Hi Walt<BR>
there are other  fur trade era half breeds such as George Druilliard o=
f Lewis and Clark fame and the two men who were with him when he met his unt=
imely demise. As well as Thiery goddin and his son Pierre who deserted Ogden=
 on the weber and went with Gardner's men.  or antione clement and his =
little brother Pierre, who came out with captain Stuart. My point is, credit=
 for their individual achievements should be duly noted.   however=
 their role in fur trade history should not be exaggerated beyond it's prope=
r scope.<BR>
sincerely; Tom<BR>
</FONT><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3057291705_46481_MIME_Part--


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From: "Ethan Sudman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 18 Nov 2000 02:17:28 GMT

I never knew that... interesting fact...

- Ethan Sudman

P.S. haven't been around in quite awhile, but I'm back now :)


>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
>Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:52:23 -0800
>
>While we are talking about stoves in tents, let me warn all that it is
>never
>safe to use a charcoal brazier in a tent. They produce Carbon Monoxide
>which
>is an odorless gas that is absorbed by the hemoglobin in the blood and
>restricts it's ability to carry oxygen. We have many third world emigrants
>die each year in our area because they are used to using such devices to
>cook and heat with. Whole families. A good working wood stove vented to the
>outside as Crazy Cyot is talking about is relatively safe. Braziers are
>not!
>I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 11:07 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
>
>
> > Henry I just want to warn you about putting a stove in a pyramid tent.
>They
> > have one fire hazard built in to them. It is the flap that is sewn on to
>the
> > tent to cover the hole for the stove pipe. When in use with a stove this
>flap
> > is rolled and tied up out of the way but on some if not most of these
>tents
> > this roll is very close to the stove pipe. You want to check and make
>sure
> > this is not the case with yours. I burned a big hole in the side of a 10
> > footer once because of this and have seen a couple others burn down over
>the
> > years because of it. If this is the case with yours there are two ways
>you
> > can fix it. If you will always be using a stove in it just cut the flap
>off
> > or take it to a tent smith and have them move the flap so it comes from
>the
> > bottom and have a short flap on top that it can slip under and tie in
>place
> > this will give you the water shed you need but when using the stove the
>flap
> > will be hanging down below the pipe not rolled up above the stove pipe.
> >                                                 Crazy Cyot
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>
>----------------------
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From: "Ethan Sudman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braziers
Date: 18 Nov 2000 02:18:54 GMT

I'll be sure never to try that...

- Ethan Sudman ([e-mail])


>From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Braziers
>Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:21:45 -0600
>
>Capt. L,
>
>There was a death at the NMLRA Eastern Rendezvoous this year when a Father
>and Son set up a brazier inside their tent for warmth. The Father died and
>the Son was still alive and was airlifted out of the rendezvous.
>
>Harddog
>
>
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From: "Ethan Sudman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition
Date: 18 Nov 2000 02:22:01 GMT

Does anyone know of any good resources (especually books, in particular ones
that a library would be likely to have) about the Louis and Clark expedition
(sp)?

Thanks,
Ethan Sudman ([e-mail])
_________________________________________________________________________
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From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #674
Date: 17 Nov 2000 20:47:51 -0600

Dave,
When I learned rope from the old Dane in North Dakota, he had me 'set'
it by soaking for a while in water, then stretching in overnight, tied
of to a couple saplings..only trees we had were saplings in the
windbreaks.

He could make dandy hair rope and any horse tack you could want. He and
his bride rode to old Mexico for a honeymoon during the start of the
depression..came back four years later, richer than when he left, and
not all in money either.  One hell of a man.  Hats of to Datus and Viola
Hill...long gone, but not forgotten.

Most respectfully,
Mike Rock

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #674
Date: 17 Nov 2000 22:00:22 EST

> When I learned rope from the old Dane in North Dakota, he had me 'set'
>  it by soaking for a while in water, then stretching in overnight, tied
>  of to a couple saplings..only trees we had were saplings in the
>  windbreaks.

Mike,
We are talking two close but different things.  In my instructions, when I
used the term "set" it meant to pull on the rope during the making process.
If you don't do this, then when you release the tension on it, it proceeds to
curl up like a Slinky, rendering all your previous work down the tubes.  If
you wind it hard enough and set it during the process, there is no need to do
so when the rope is done.  You can make them so stiff that you can stick them
in the ground and climb them, disappearing into the clouds.  However, that is
an advanced technique beyond the scope of this list.  <G>

I also forgot to mention that you should take a candle and burn off all the
fuzzies, and then slick the rope down with a coarse rag or leather glove.

Dave

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From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition
Date: 17 Nov 2000 20:39:12 -0800

Ethan
I really enjoyed undaunted courage by Steven ambrose.   my city library has
the whole set of  the journals volumes Yours might as well.
sincerely; Tom
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 6:22 PM


> Does anyone know of any good resources (especually books, in particular
ones
> that a library would be likely to have) about the Louis and Clark
expedition
> (sp)?
>
> Thanks,
> Ethan Sudman ([e-mail])
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>
>
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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis & mixed-bloods
Date: 17 Nov 2000 22:59:32 -0700

Dianne,

Thank you for a good working definition of "Metis".  This has been a problem
in some of the discussions here of late.  Your definition fits what many of
us believe to be the case, and certainly fit more with the existing journals.

Thanks, and welcome, you've just contributed something meaningful!!!

YMOS,

Allen

>By common use
>(today) Metis implies French/Native; by Metis self-definition (years ago) is
>was a "cultural" classification - French/Native/Catholic. By both Metis and
>common definition, anyone else is "half-breed" with the historical
>connotation of being somewhat LESS "value" than white. (Sorry for the racial
>slurs.)
>
>Among the Iroquois, who was and wasn't a member of the tribe was decided by
>the tribe (and still is, much to the chagrin of the U.S. government).
>Inheritance was matrilineal but adoption was every bit as respected as
>"membership by birth". In the old days, it carried a lot of weight because
>an adopted member was chosen for a reason - usually something about their
>character - and they were often chosen to fill the role of someone who had
>died. Some who came to the Longhouse lived there without ever being formally
>adopted and never gained the status of a "real person".
>
>Among the Iroquois people, trade routes existed throughout the eastern and
>central part of North America long before the whiteman. Indian tobacco was
>traded as far west as the western plains. Minnesota soapstone (for pipes)
>and turquoise from the southwest was not uncommon in Iroquois country. I
>have heard it claimed by my People (though don't know if it is documented)
>that Iroquois traders were found on the Pacific coast when the west coast of
>Canada was "discovered"
>
>I am happy with my persona and I think I am content to live with my canvas
>covered tipi and put up with the occasional challenge. At least, from the
>comments on the list, it isn't TOO far out of line.
>
>(Finally decided on a monichre - Jin-o-ta-ka - Seneca for Muskrat, kind of
>appropriate I think!)
>
>Thanks all.
>
>Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition
Date: 18 Nov 2000 02:02:47 EST

Check on Lewis & Clark / The Journey of the Corps of Discovery, An
Illustrated History by Dayton Duncan and Ken Burns published by Knopf, New
York, 1997.  ISBN 0-679-45450-0.  It's the companion book to the PBS
documentary film by Ken Burns.

IN addition to some great journal reading and quote's, but the  illustrations
of everything from weapons to animals are impressive.

If the library doesn't have it, maybe PBS's website or one of the online
booksellers.  IMHO, this one is worth adding to your library.  Barney

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rops and cordage
Date: 18 Nov 2000 07:23:30 -0600

    Manila rope is available at Wal-Mart and just about any farm supply or
hardware store I have ever seen.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis & mixed-bloods
Date: 17 Nov 2000 20:16:00 -0700

 >The reason I chose the Seneca background is because I sought refuge with an
 >old woman on the Grand River Reserve often and over many years when I was
 >young

Sorry, but the penny just dropped. ;-) There were many Iroqouis involved in
the Canadian fur trade in western Canada during this time frame. There is a
great article on the subject:

Nicks, Trudy. 'The Iroquois and the Fur Trade in Western Canada', in Old
Trails & New Directions : Papers of the Third North American Fur Trade
Conference. Carol M. Judd and Arthur J. Ray, eds. University of Toronto
Press : Toronto, 1978.

If I recall correctly, they were mostly Mohawks (from Kahnawake), but who's
to say there weren't some Senecas too?

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred





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From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition
Date: 18 Nov 2000 09:27:01 -0700

<html><head><meta Name=3D'keywords' Content=3D'commtouch, pronto, mail, =
free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communicatio=
ns, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></he=
ad><body   ><div align=3D'left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT><BR=
>
---- Begin Original Message ----<BR>
<BR>
Check on Lewis & Clark / The Journey of the Corps <BR>
of Discovery, An <BR>
Illustrated History by Dayton Duncan and Ken <BR>
Burns published by Knopf, New <BR>
York, 1997. =A0ISBN 0-679-45450-0. =A0It's the <BR>
companion book to the PBS <BR>
documentary film by Ken Burns.<BR>
<BR>
IN addition to some great journal reading and <BR>
quote's, but the =A0illustrations <BR>
of everything from weapons to animals are <BR>
impressive.<BR>
<BR>
If the library doesn't have it, maybe PBS's <BR>
website or one of the online <BR>
booksellers. =A0IMHO, this one is worth adding to <BR>
your library. =A0Barney =A0 =A0<BR>
<BR>
---- End Original Message ----<BR>
<BR>
These are my most read books on the subject.<BR>
<BR>
Take a look at a great reference book done by a <BR>
member of this list. <BR>
1. LEWIS & CLARK & THE IMAGE OF THE AMERICAN <BR>
NORTHWEST by Jon Logan Allen. ISBN 0-486-26914-0<BR>
<BR>
2. BEFORE LEWIS & CLARK-DOCUMENTS ILLUSTRATING <BR>
THE HISTORY OF THE MISSOURI 1785-1804 by <BR>
A.P.Nasatir (2 vol set) ISBN 0-8032-8362-8<BR>
<BR>
3. LEWIS & CLARK PIONEERING NATURALISTS by Paul <BR>
Russell Cutright ISBN 0-832-6334-1<BR>
<BR>
4. THE JOURNALS OF LEWIS & CLARK by Bernard <BR>
DeVoto ISBN 0-395-08380-X<BR>
<BR>
5. ONLY ONE MAN DIED - THE MEDICAL ASPECTS OF THE <BR>
LEWIS & CLARK EXPEDITION by Eldon G. Chuinard, <BR>
M.D. ISBN0-87062-128-9<BR>
<BR>
These books run from $12 to $35 dollars and are <BR>
available at most book sources and libraries.<BR>
<BR>
6. ORIGINAL JOURNALS OF THE LEWIS & CLARK <BR>
EXPEDITION 1804-1806 by Reuben Gold Thwaites (8 <BR>
vol set) Arno Press, these can be a little pricey <BR>
and have to be special ordered - have seen them <BR>
at $465.xx new to $175.xx used - good cond.<BR>
<BR>
These are just a few of 28-30 titles I have on <BR>
the subject of Lewis & Clark and their travels, <BR>
this will always be an non-ending story.<BR>
<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=3Dleft><TT>Take care, <BR>
Barry "Buck" Conner <BR>
Resource & Documentation for:<BR>
___________________________________ <BR>
 HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT  <BR>
______________________________HRD__ <BR>
Visit these period camp sites at: <BR>
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/<BR>
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ <BR>
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ <BR>
___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! __<BR>
_____________________________________________ <BR>
 </TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.co=
m </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Buckskinner items for sale
Date: 18 Nov 2000 17:06:02 -0800


List members,

An old friend of mine seems to want to get out of the buckskinning business
and has some items for sale. I have listed them below without price as the
rules dictate. If your interested please contact Mr. Buck directly. All
items are located in Kennewick, WA.  Please do not direct any inquiries to
the list. Thank you,

Capt. Lahti'

mailto:[e-mail]



 16 foot teepee, tight weave water proof canvas.  Comes with; liner, ozan,
floor, door, poles and rope. excellent condition ---

Black powder cannon, 2 1/8 inch bore, removable breech for cleaning. Mounted
on carriage with modern wheels. throw in some powder and fuse.-

60 cal. smooth bore trade gun, flintlock, green river forge lock and barrel.
Sitting fox and all.  --



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Rendezvous
Date: 18 Nov 2000 20:47:38 EST


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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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You all missed a great rendezvous.  Dripping Springs Rendeazvous was this
past week.   The compititions were won by a 16yr. old boy and paid, $135.00
Second was won by a 16 yr. old girl, $90.00.  Third by a 14 yr old boy,
$60.00. Then the adults started to place.  Next years dates are 8 -11 Nov 01.
 Hope to see you there.  There were reinactors from 9 states.  Not bad for
the second year.

                                                       Ridgepole

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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=2>You all missed a great rendezvous.  Dripping Springs Rendeazvous was this <BR>past week.   The compititions were won by a 16yr. old boy and paid, $135.00 <BR>Second was won by a 16 yr. old girl, $90.00.  Third by a 14 yr old boy, <BR>$60.00. Then the adults started to place.  Next years dates are 8 -11 Nov 01. <BR> Hope to see you there.  There were reinactors from 9 states.  Not bad for <BR>the second year.
<BR>
<BR>                                                       Ridgepole</FONT></HTML>

--part1_80.312e851.27488b3a_boundary--

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: PC powder horn and measure
Date: 18 Nov 2000 22:00:49 EST

Can anyone out there give me advice on a pc powder horn and powder measure
(did such a thing exist and if it did not what is an ok pc substitute?).
About how much would these cost me?  Would they be cheaper (more satisfying
for sure) to build/make myself?
Thanks for the advice in advance!
-C.Kent

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: PC powder horn and measure
Date: 18 Nov 2000 19:46:58 -0800

I have a horn and bag for each gun I shoot.  My smoothbore uses a hand-made
powder horn of buffalo horn on a separate strap.  My rifle has two matched
cow horns attached to the bag strap.  Both guns use antler bored out to the
proper charge for each specific gun.  Both the antler changer and the
buffalo and cow horn powder "flasks" are historically correct which should
be PC enough for anyone.

Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 7:00 PM


> Can anyone out there give me advice on a pc powder horn and powder measure
> (did such a thing exist and if it did not what is an ok pc substitute?).
> About how much would these cost me?  Would they be cheaper (more
satisfying
> for sure) to build/make myself?
> Thanks for the advice in advance!
> -C.Kent
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: big deer
Date: 19 Nov 2000 00:35:37 -0500

In the Dayton Daily news, news paper, Dayton Ohio, there was a pic of a
possible new record white tail that came out of Green county Ohio. It was in
( I think) Fridays paper. It was a 39 point buck. It said possible new
record. It was estimated by the hunter at about 225# on the hoof. The rack
was very deformed looking by the pic. Deformed by the number of points
sticking out in every which direction. It appeared extremely large at the
base.

It was taken this week with a bow. Unable to get a pic to keep. It was just
WOW !! to look at it. One side was way bigger than my first deer, a 10
pointer.

Oh yes, this is an eastern count.

John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
longhunter
mountainman
Southwest, Ohio


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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buckskinner items for sale
Date: 19 Nov 2000 01:05:57 -0800

I am going to have a for sale site for tipi owners on my web site.  If you get
your friend in touch with me, I can put it up and see what happens.  Just talk
to someone tonight who was interested in a tipi.  If he has a photo of it up,
that is even better.

Linda Holley
http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com


Roger Lahti wrote:

> List members,
>
> An old friend of mine seems to want to get out of the buckskinning business
> and has some items for sale. I have listed them below without price as the
> rules dictate. If your interested please contact Mr. Buck directly. All
> items are located in Kennewick, WA.  Please do not direct any inquiries to
> the list. Thank you,
>
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> mailto:[e-mail]
>
>  16 foot teepee, tight weave water proof canvas.  Comes with; liner, ozan,
> floor, door, poles and rope. excellent condition ---
>
> Black powder cannon, 2 1/8 inch bore, removable breech for cleaning. Mounted
> on carriage with modern wheels. throw in some powder and fuse.-
>
> 60 cal. smooth bore trade gun, flintlock, green river forge lock and barrel.
> Sitting fox and all.  --
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buckskinner items for sale
Date: 18 Nov 2000 22:17:29 -0800

Linda,

I copied and pasted your post to my friend. Hope he contacts you.

Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 1:05 AM


> I am going to have a for sale site for tipi owners on my web site.  If you
get
> your friend in touch with me, I can put it up and see what happens.  Just
talk
> to someone tonight who was interested in a tipi.  If he has a photo of it
up,
> that is even better.
>
> Linda Holley
> http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com
>




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 17 Nov 2000 08:48:48 -0600

I have a machine for twisting cordage made out of wood ---has a handel
and all you do is rotate one bar and it twists the cordage---contact me
offline and i will be glad to make you a sketch with dimentions---will
make up to about 1/2 rope pretty easy---

hawk
[e-mail]
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Terrance Luff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: mix blood tipi covers
Date: 19 Nov 2000 21:19:09 MST

   OK
you have caught me with out some of reach papers. walt, i belive that the
artis i was speaking of is in the papers in the brief case that you have.
also why don,t you, just go a head and send that artical i read you from
that past metis news letter to the list. working off the top of my head ,the
swiss artist peter rindisbacher done some work on the metis also he had some
on the buffalo metis. angla, i'm i in the date peiod.? also the history
society of minnesota holds some pictures of metis camps on the praires
showing both hides and cavas tipis,look close at these.are there flags
flying from poles? i am sorry if i step on some canadian toe's, did not mean
to. most of my research is on the montana metis. just that,with the
different metis rodee's or pow wows i have taken part in the metis history
seens to tie in ,in both countrys.
having been in buckskinning from 60 s and the history part, i have found
that the metis history seems to be a different world. you must remimber in
look at some history (writen) . some was held back by the translator then by
author to keep the person from trouble. also you,when trying to redo
history, should take the human side. after dwelling in books and
interviewing metis people. the metis were here and did leave thier tracks
early in history. i given my ref, time and agian .    bythe way it is a
loaded keg.


w
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Period ropes & cordage
Date: 19 Nov 2000 21:52:30 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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I would like to add a suggestion to Dave Kanger little rope making =
instructions.  When I made my horse hair rope a while back I drilled a =
hole through the dowel that I was spinning and put a large bolt through =
the hole.  Then by holding the bolt and twirling the dowel around, the =
rope twisted as he described.  Hopefully that makes sense.  Also, this =
rope making stuff is really a cinch if the materials you are making it =
from are already in a string type form.  It works the same way with =
short fibers like horse hair but you have to get the fibers to bind =
together and "meter" them out to a consistant thickness as a partner =
twirls.=20

My rope has guided my old war horse over many miles since it was made =
and has put up with being chewed on by a mule more than once.  I would =
recommend horsehair ropes for lots of uses (when wrapped around a horses =
leg and struggled against, it do not burn  horse flesh like every other =
kind of rope I have tried) but it is danged expensive either in dollars =
or effort. =20

Humbly
WY

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I would like to add a suggestion to =
Dave Kanger=20
little rope making instructions.  When I made my horse hair rope a =
while=20
back I drilled a hole through the dowel that I was spinning and put a =
large bolt=20
through the hole.  Then by holding the bolt and twirling the dowel =
around,=20
the rope twisted as he described.  Hopefully that makes =
sense.  Also,=20
this rope making stuff is really a cinch if the materials you are making =
it from=20
are already in a string type form.  It works the same way with =
short fibers=20
like horse hair but you have to get the fibers to bind together and =
"meter" them=20
out to a consistant thickness as a partner twirls. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My rope has guided my old war horse =
over many miles=20
since it was made and has put up with being chewed on by a mule more =
than=20
once.  I would recommend horsehair ropes for lots of uses (when =
wrapped=20
around a horses leg and struggled against, it do not burn  horse =
flesh like=20
every other kind of rope I have tried) but it is danged expensive either =
in=20
dollars or effort.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Humbly</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mixed Bloods
Date: 19 Nov 2000 21:52:36 -0700

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Tom Said
. . . . .  or antione clement and his little brother Pierre, who came =
out with captain Stuart. =3D


I believe I have seen Antione's name as one of those who were near the =
Great Basin in 1824-25 and tranfered his services to the Americans at =
that time.  I thought that I got that list of names from this list and =
had kept it but I can not find it so maybe it was on Dean's list.  At =
any rate, it does not materially change the point of Tom's post but I =
have thought of Antione as one of the ol' timers, am I wrong?

Humbly=20
WY



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom Said</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>. . . . .  or antione clement and =
his little=20
brother Pierre, who came out with captain Stuart. =3D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe I have seen Antione's name as =
one of=20
those who were near the Great Basin in 1824-25 and tranfered his =
services to the=20
Americans at that time.  I thought that I got that list of =
names from=20
this list and had kept it but I can not find it so maybe it was on =
Dean's=20
list.  At any rate, it does not materially change the point of =
Tom's post=20
but I have thought of Antione as one of the ol' timers, am I =
wrong?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Humbly </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mix blood tipi covers
Date: 20 Nov 2000 00:55:50 EST

 I've got one question for you on this tipis thing. How does one tell the
difference between hide tipis and canvas tipis from an artist painting or
drawing?
                                             Crazy Cyot

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mix blood tipi covers
Date: 19 Nov 2000 22:47:33 -0800

I am familar with the Swiss artist from his work on Meti dress but don't
remember any canvas tipi paintings or sketches.  Maybe Walt can enlighten
me.  I am also familar with the Metis pictured in the Minnesota Historical
Society collection.  I use their web site fequently.  These photos of the
Pembina Red River trade are from no earlier than the mid-1850s.  It's the
earlier 1810 date I'm interested in.
Thanks,

Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 8:19 PM


>    OK
> you have caught me with out some of reach papers. walt, i belive that the
> artis i was speaking of is in the papers in the brief case that you have.
> also why don,t you, just go a head and send that artical i read you from
> that past metis news letter to the list. working off the top of my head
,the
> swiss artist peter rindisbacher done some work on the metis also he had
some
> on the buffalo metis. angla, i'm i in the date peiod.? also the history
> society of minnesota holds some pictures of metis camps on the praires
> showing both hides and cavas tipis,look close at these.are there flags
> flying from poles? i am sorry if i step on some canadian toe's, did not
mean
> to. most of my research is on the montana metis. just that,with the
> different metis rodee's or pow wows i have taken part in the metis history
> seens to tie in ,in both countrys.
> having been in buckskinning from 60 s and the history part, i have found
> that the metis history seems to be a different world. you must remimber in
> look at some history (writen) . some was held back by the translator then
by
> author to keep the person from trouble. also you,when trying to redo
> history, should take the human side. after dwelling in books and
> interviewing metis people. the metis were here and did leave thier tracks
> early in history. i given my ref, time and agian .    bythe way it is a
> loaded keg.
>
>
> w
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>
>
> ----------------------
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>

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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mix blood tipi covers
Date: 20 Nov 2000 06:44:37 -0800

Actually you do not unless the artist puts the lines in for either.  And, in
all my drawings and paintings I have not seen the lines for canvas.  Seen
some very bad hide tipis.  In "old" time photos you can just barely see the
lines.  Then lets' see when the art of photography came into being.

Linda

[e-mail] wrote:

>  I've got one question for you on this tipis thing. How does one tell the
> difference between hide tipis and canvas tipis from an artist painting or
> drawing?
>                                              Crazy Cyot
>
> ----------------------
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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mix blood tipi covers
Date: 20 Nov 2000 06:46:15 -0800

I am also familiar with these pictures and agree with Larry, they are of a
different time period.  Would love to see something earlier.

Linda Holley

Larry Huber wrote:

> I am familar with the Swiss artist from his work on Meti dress but don't
> remember any canvas tipi paintings or sketches.  Maybe Walt can enlighten
> me.  I am also familar with the Metis pictured in the Minnesota Historical
> Society collection.  I use their web site fequently.  These photos of the
> Pembina Red River trade are from no earlier than the mid-1850s.  It's the
> earlier 1810 date I'm interested in.
> Thanks,
>
> Larry Huber
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Terrance Luff <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 8:19 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: mix blood tipi covers
>
> >    OK
> > you have caught me with out some of reach papers. walt, i belive that the
> > artis i was speaking of is in the papers in the brief case that you have.
> > also why don,t you, just go a head and send that artical i read you from
> > that past metis news letter to the list. working off the top of my head
> ,the
> > swiss artist peter rindisbacher done some work on the metis also he had
> some
> > on the buffalo metis. angla, i'm i in the date peiod.? also the history
> > society of minnesota holds some pictures of metis camps on the praires
> > showing both hides and cavas tipis,look close at these.are there flags
> > flying from poles? i am sorry if i step on some canadian toe's, did not
> mean
> > to. most of my research is on the montana metis. just that,with the
> > different metis rodee's or pow wows i have taken part in the metis history
> > seens to tie in ,in both countrys.
> > having been in buckskinning from 60 s and the history part, i have found
> > that the metis history seems to be a different world. you must remimber in
> > look at some history (writen) . some was held back by the translator then
> by
> > author to keep the person from trouble. also you,when trying to redo
> > history, should take the human side. after dwelling in books and
> > interviewing metis people. the metis were here and did leave thier tracks
> > early in history. i given my ref, time and agian .    bythe way it is a
> > loaded keg.
> >
> >
> > w
> > _________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > http://profiles.msn.com.
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition reference
Date: 20 Nov 2000 04:45:10 -0700

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2. BEFORE LEWIS & CLARK-DOCUMENTS ILLUSTRATING
THE HISTORY OF THE MISSOURI 1785-1804 by
A.P.Nasatir (2 vol set) ISBN 0-8032-8362-8

Hello Buck,

Last Monday I had the opportunity to read the first thirty pages of Vol. 2.
Some interesting reading regarding the mixed blood at issue in the rocky
mountain fur trade.  There appear to be six different directions the mixed
blood poured in here, that is on the upper Missouri/Yellowstone environs at
least.  Dorion and son are mentioned in the context of Lewis and Clark and
the rocky mountain fur trade south and west of Yellowstone Park.  Next time
I am in the museum by the Billings airport I hope to get another read in the
near future.  And pick up where I left off.


Walt
Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana



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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><tt><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>2. =
BEFORE LEWIS
& CLARK-DOCUMENTS ILLUSTRATING </span></font></tt><font =
color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><br>
</span></font><tt><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>THE =
HISTORY OF
THE MISSOURI 1785-1804 by </span></font></tt><font color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><br>
</span></font><tt><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>A.P.Nasatir (2
vol set) ISBN 0-8032-8362-8</span></font></tt><font color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New";
color:navy'>Hello Buck,</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:
"Courier =
New";color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'>Last Monday
I had the opportunity to read the first thirty pages of Vol. 2.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Some interesting reading =
regarding the
mixed blood at issue in the rocky mountain fur trade.<span =
style=3D"mso-spacerun:
yes">  </span>There appear to be six different directions the mixed =
blood
poured in here, that is on the upper Missouri/Yellowstone environs at =
least.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Dorion and son are mentioned =
in the
context of Lewis and Clark and the rocky mountain fur trade south and =
west of Yellowstone
Park.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Next time I am in =
the museum
by the Billings airport I hope to get another read in the near =
future.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>And pick up where I left =
off.</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Wa=
lt<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><!--[if supportFields]><span =
class=3DEmailStyle17><font=20
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-begin'></span><span=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail=20
Signature" <span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-separator'></span></span></font></span><![endi=
f]--><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Clark =
Bottom
Rendezvous</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Yellowsto=
ne Canoe
Camp</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>On the =
Lewis
& Clark Trail</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:=
p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Park =
City,
Montana </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><!--[if supportFields]><span =
class=3DEmailStyle17><font=20
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-end'></span></span></font></span><![endif]--><=
span
class=3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:
"Courier New";color:black'><br>
</span></font><tt><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span></font></tt><font =
color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

</div>

</body>

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 20 Nov 2000 04:45:14 -0700

Don't know if anybody's mentioned it yet, but Allen Chronister had an
article on this very topic in the last Museum of the Fur Trade
Quarterly.  Good research.  In short, he gives evidence that cloth tipi
covers can be documented as early as 1846 (Lakotas).  There was another
article on canvas tipi covers in the MFTQ Fall '84.  And Marcy mentions
canvas tipi covers in "Prairie Traveler" (1859)
http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/carrie/kancoll/books/marcy/index.html.

This pushes the documentable date back earlier than 1870's, but doesn't
quite get you to 1800.  If you're a stickler for authenticity and want to
document cloth tipi's that early, you could try looking in HBC records for
huge purchases of cloth by indians - a tipi would require - what - 50 yards
or more?
-Dean

Hello Dean,

Walt Marten has a Lewis and Clark reference to a tipi being brought up river
1805.  There is a 50/50 chance that this was the first cloth tipi in what is
now called Montana.  The small tipi was for the use of the guides and
carried on the big boat.  With the wet conditions and sail clothe being
available within the expedition.   A small cloth tipi of 10-12 foot in
diameter does not take anywhere near 50 yards of material.  I will see Walt
Marten at the Stillwater County Lewis and Clark Bicentennial Commission
meeting on the 20th and I will arrange to get the reference.

Walt
Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana





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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition had a tipi?
Date: 20 Nov 2000 07:20:56 EST

This is a new one on me maybe someone can enlighten me on this. Did they hall
along the poles or did they cut new ones at every camp they made?
                                          Crazy Cyot

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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 20 Nov 2000 07:35:30 -0600

Just a quick smoke-signal from the 21st century engineering office.....

ANY object (stove, rock, lantern) that approaches incandescence (dull glow
in subdued light) can produce carbon monoxide. If it is too hot to touch
briefly, it can kill you. The less free oxygen that's available (i.e. in a
closed space), the more carbon monoxide is produced.

Travel safe.

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)

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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tipis & mixed-bloods
Date: 20 Nov 2000 07:46:19 -0600

Angela Gottfred wrote about Iroquois in the western fur trade....

I will look that book up and have a read.

I know from our oral history (in which I put a lot of faith) and from our
Canadian "history books" (which I trust only a little), the northern trade
routes were dominated by the French, the French allies and the Huron for a
long time, this includes the upper Great Lakes, Lake of the Woods, and the
Winnipeg River. This is why, in this part of the country, mixed-blood was
almost always French.

The Huron were incited by the French and the Iroquois by the British in a
running war that went on for a long time and wiped out two Indian Nations
who were stuck between (the Tobaccos and the Neutrals). After generations of
skirmishing, when the Iroquois got pi##ed off enough to move against the
Huron and exterminated them, I don't know what happened to the trade routes.
I can only assume that the Iroquois took control of the northern route, but
I have heard nothing here (Manitoba) among the Anishinabe or early records
of Iroquois involvement in local trade.

Very interesting.....

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark expedition
Date: 20 Nov 2000 08:05:50 -0600

Ethan Sudman asked,

<Does anyone know of any good resources (especually books, in particular
ones
that a library would be likely to have) about the Louis and Clark
expedition?>

    Ethan, a simple Internet search will pull up the complete, original,
digest of the expedition.  The book "From Sea to Shining Sea" by James
Alexander Thom is a very exciting fictionalized, but accurate, rendition of
the event. I highly recommend it. I found my copy in paperback in a used
book store.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas





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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 20 Nov 2000 10:17:11 EST

    Greetings:

    The recent discussion of the potential for carbon monoxide poisoning from
combustive heating/open fires or stoves within shelters has raised my
curiosity.  Does anyone know of any situations where aboriginal americans or
those of a more contempory period have died as a result of asphixiation from
carbonmonoxide poisoning in a Tipi?   It seems such would be unlikely due to
the ventilation drafts entering from the bottom of the outside liner which
ascend between the inside and outside liner in the 'pole' space then
refurnish  02  to the fire and vent up and out through the flap area....   I
am a new to this and request comments words from those of you who are more
experienced.  Thanks  elkflea

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From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hemp
Date: 20 Nov 2000 09:22:15 -0600

If I remember right, hemp was the number one cash crop before WWII in
Wisconsin, then of course it became illegal.

Jim

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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 20 Nov 2000 08:39:37 -0700


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[e-mail] wrote:

>     Greetings:
>
>     The recent discussion of the potential for carbon monoxide poisoning from
> combustive heating/open fires or stoves within shelters has raised my
> curiosity.  Does anyone know of any situations where aboriginal americans or
> those of a more contempory period have died as a result of asphixiation from
> carbonmonoxide poisoning in a Tipi?   It seems such would be unlikely due to
> the ventilation drafts entering from the bottom of the outside liner which
> ascend between the inside and outside liner in the 'pole' space then
> refurnish  02  to the fire and vent up and out through the flap area....   I
> am a new to this and request comments words from those of you who are more
> experienced.  Thanks  elkflea
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

The problem is many put the outside cover down on the ground and don't use a
liner, thus not venting as you referred to. This is where the problem starts,
smoky to start with - then it goes down hill.

Later,

Buck Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
___________________________________HRD__
Visit these sites at:
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
http://pages.about.com/conner1/
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
__________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___


--------------1DBF0AFCAFDF57275F225CA7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
[e-mail] wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>    Greetings:
<p>    The recent discussion of the potential for carbon
monoxide poisoning from
<br>combustive heating/open fires or stoves within shelters has raised
my
<br>curiosity.  Does anyone know of any situations where aboriginal
americans or
<br>those of a more contempory period have died as a result of asphixiation
from
<br>carbonmonoxide poisoning in a Tipi?   It seems such would
be unlikely due to
<br>the ventilation drafts entering from the bottom of the outside liner
which
<br>ascend between the inside and outside liner in the 'pole' space then
<br>refurnish  02  to the fire and vent up and out through the
flap area....   I
<br>am a new to this and request comments words from those of you who are
more
<br>experienced.  Thanks  elkflea
<p>----------------------
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<p><br>The problem is many put the outside cover down on the ground and
don't use a liner, thus not venting as you referred to. This is where the
problem starts, smoky to start with - then it goes down hill.
<br>
<br>Later,
<p>Buck Conner
<br>Resource & Documentation for:
<br>________________________________________
<br>HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
<br>___________________________________HRD__
<br>Visit these sites at:
<br><u><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A></u>
<br><u><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/conner1/">http://pages.about.com/conner1/</A></u>
<br><u><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/">http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/</A></u>
<br>__________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___
<br> </html>

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From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mixed Bloods
Date: 20 Nov 2000 11:23:43 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C052E4.5762FCA0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

the antione clement and brother pierre, that I was refering to were =
members of stewarts 1837 foray in to the west.   antione was stewart's =
right hand man and hunter.   stewart also hired antione's 19 year old =
brother pierre.  The artist A.J. Miller who recorded the trip in =
pictures.   said that antione and stewart often argued over various =
isues.  miller would often see stewart and clement riding nose to nose, =
stirrup to stirrup, shouting and swearing at each other in french.   =
then someone would shout "buffalo"!  and the two would forget the =
arguement and race to the hunt.  when the hunt was over the argument was =
entirely forgotten.  miller painted portraits of both pierre and antione =
they are well worth a look.
sincerely; Tom
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 8:52 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Mixed Bloods


  Tom Said
  . . . . .  or antione clement and his little brother Pierre, who came =
out with captain Stuart. =3D
  =20
  =20
  I believe I have seen Antione's name as one of those who were near the =
Great Basin in 1824-25 and tranfered his services to the Americans at =
that time.  I thought that I got that list of names from this list and =
had kept it but I can not find it so maybe it was on Dean's list.  At =
any rate, it does not materially change the point of Tom's post but I =
have thought of Antione as one of the ol' timers, am I wrong?
  =20
  Humbly=20
  WY

  =20

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the antione clement and brother pierre, =
that I was=20
refering to were members of stewarts 1837 foray in to the west.   =
antione=20
was stewart's right hand man and hunter.   stewart also =
hired=20
antione's 19 year old brother pierre.  The artist A.J. Miller who =
recorded=20
the trip in pictures.   said that antione and stewart often argued =
over=20
various isues.  miller would often see stewart and clement =
riding nose=20
to nose, stirrup to stirrup, shouting and swearing at each other in=20
french.   then someone would shout "buffalo"!  and the two =
would=20
forget the arguement and race to the hunt.  when the hunt was over =
the=20
argument was entirely forgotten.  miller painted portraits of both =
pierre=20
and antione they are well worth a look.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>sincerely; Tom</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Wynn &=20
  Gretchen Ormond</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 19, 2000 =
8:52=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Mixed =
Bloods</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom Said</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>. . . . .  or antione clement =
and his little=20
  brother Pierre, who came out with captain Stuart. =3D</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe I have seen Antione's name =
as one of=20
  those who were near the Great Basin in 1824-25 and tranfered his =
services to=20
  the Americans at that time.  I thought that I got that list =
of names=20
  from this list and had kept it but I can not find it so maybe it was =
on Dean's=20
  list.  At any rate, it does not materially change the point of =
Tom's post=20
  but I have thought of Antione as one of the ol' timers, am I=20
  wrong?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Humbly </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><BR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 20 Nov 2000 13:05:44 -0600

Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more

You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14'
diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit).

Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and
canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing?

In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a
painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where
all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of
liberties with accuracy!)

A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides
weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where
the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the
front poles.

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 20 Nov 2000 13:06:24 -0600

elkflea asked if anyone died as a result of asphyxiation from carbon
monoxide poisoning in a Tipi.

When I was down on the Cheyenne River Reserve and talking to the old people
about winter life in the tipi I asked about ventilation (since I had been
told they often stuffed dry grass down in the space between the covering and
the ghost sheet).

I was told that it was common to dig a shallow trench in the ground before
pitching the tipi for the winter. The trench extended from outside of the
covering to the fire in the centre. The trench was then covered with
branches (so you didn't trip on it). It allowed cold air to reach the fire
without making a draft on everyone inside.

I don't expect canvas would likely gas anyone (though it could), but I
imagine a hide tipi wouldn't "breathe" worth a darn!

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 20 Nov 2000 15:19:01 -0800

A small tipi of 10 to 12 would take about 25 yards at 36" wide.  If using the
48" it would be less.

Linda Holley

Walt Foster wrote:

> Don't know if anybody's mentioned it yet, but Allen Chronister had an
> article on this very topic in the last Museum of the Fur Trade
> Quarterly.  Good research.  In short, he gives evidence that cloth tipi
> covers can be documented as early as 1846 (Lakotas).  There was another
> article on canvas tipi covers in the MFTQ Fall '84.  And Marcy mentions
> canvas tipi covers in "Prairie Traveler" (1859)
> http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/carrie/kancoll/books/marcy/index.html.
>
> This pushes the documentable date back earlier than 1870's, but doesn't
> quite get you to 1800.  If you're a stickler for authenticity and want to
> document cloth tipi's that early, you could try looking in HBC records for
> huge purchases of cloth by indians - a tipi would require - what - 50 yards
> or more?
> -Dean
>
> Hello Dean,
>
> Walt Marten has a Lewis and Clark reference to a tipi being brought up river
> 1805.  There is a 50/50 chance that this was the first cloth tipi in what is
> now called Montana.  The small tipi was for the use of the guides and
> carried on the big boat.  With the wet conditions and sail clothe being
> available within the expedition.   A small cloth tipi of 10-12 foot in
> diameter does not take anywhere near 50 yards of material.  I will see Walt
> Marten at the Stillwater County Lewis and Clark Bicentennial Commission
> meeting on the 20th and I will arrange to get the reference.
>
> Walt
> Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
> Clark Bottom Rendezvous
> Yellowstone Canoe Camp
> On the Lewis & Clark Trail
> Park City, Montana
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 20 Nov 2000 21:00:48 EST


In a message dated 11/20/0 12:07:37 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<I don't expect canvas would likely gas anyone (though it could), but I

imagine a hide tipi wouldn't "breathe" worth a darn!


Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)>>

But you still have a heck-of-a vent in that smoke  hole.  Without the draft
coming under the dew cloth or in the previously mentioned "vent-channel" the
smoke won't go out and you get an immediate message.  Many times I have
gotten up in the night to clear fresh snowfall away from the edge of that
covering to allow the draft to come in . . . clears the smoke right out.
Smokey tipis wake you up - they're not like the fumes from those little
stoves.

Richard James

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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 20 Nov 2000 18:58:45 -0700

I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference
between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a
copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the
flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows
the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on
edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting
determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be)
goes along way in how much detail goes into his work.

"Best, Dianne" wrote:

> Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more
>
> You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14'
> diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit).
>
> Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and
> canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing?
>
> In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a
> painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where
> all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of
> liberties with accuracy!)
>
> A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides
> weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where
> the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the
> front poles.
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Wintering in a Tipi
Date: 20 Nov 2000 23:49:38 EST

Elkflea I can't say as I have heard of any one get COed in a Tipis. But I
have had to lay low a few times when the smoke got thick, do to a wind
change. Before I got up to change the smoke flaps. The first winter I lived
in my tipis I dug a trench to the out side as before mentioned but I {for
give the lack of period correctness} laid a pipe in the ground with a ninety
on it so it had about three feet of pipe standing above the ground. So the
snow would not cover it. This worked every well; helped keep a good draft for
the fire and helped to keep the inside of the lodge warmer because the fire
was not pulling cold air in form the edges of the lodge. I also found that a
tall liner helps to keep it warmer. Never tried the grass stuffed in the
liner just figured that when the grass got wet and started to mold it would
help to rote the canvas faster. I found building a wind brake fence around
the tipis helped too, also gave me a place to store fire wood. I spent two
winters in a tipis on the bend of the Bear River by Soda Spring Idaho. I also
found out way the Indians did not winter there it's got to be one of the
coldest places in the state.

                                                    See ya on the Trail
                                                         Crazy Cyot

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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Wintering in a Tipi
Date: 20 Nov 2000 22:46:06 -0700

Hello the list,

What Crazy didn't really emphasize here was that he _lived_ in the tipi year
round for 2 years.  So when it comes to knowing how and what works and what
don't, I'd be a listenin' to the Cyot!

Allen

At 11:49 PM 11/20/2000 EST, you wrote:
>Elkflea I can't say as I have heard of any one get COed in a Tipis. But I
>have had to lay low a few times when the smoke got thick, do to a wind
>change. Before I got up to change the smoke flaps. The first winter I lived
>in my tipis I dug a trench to the out side as before mentioned but I {for
>give the lack of period correctness} laid a pipe in the ground with a ninety
>on it so it had about three feet of pipe standing above the ground. So the
>snow would not cover it. This worked every well; helped keep a good draft for
>the fire and helped to keep the inside of the lodge warmer because the fire
>was not pulling cold air in form the edges of the lodge. I also found that a
>tall liner helps to keep it warmer. Never tried the grass stuffed in the
>liner just figured that when the grass got wet and started to mold it would
>help to rote the canvas faster. I found building a wind brake fence around
>the tipis helped too, also gave me a place to store fire wood. I spent two
>winters in a tipis on the bend of the Bear River by Soda Spring Idaho. I also
>found out way the Indians did not winter there it's got to be one of the
>coldest places in the state.
>
>                                                    See ya on the Trail
>                                                         Crazy Cyot
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 21 Nov 2000 06:33:36 -0800

Interesting that the painting is 1860.  Canvas was used in the 1850's.  But how
about earlier for pictures. like the 1830 or so.

Linda Holley

Mike Moore wrote:

> I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference
> between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a
> copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the
> flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows
> the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on
> edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting
> determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be)
> goes along way in how much detail goes into his work.
>
> "Best, Dianne" wrote:
>
> > Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more
> >
> > You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14'
> > diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit).
> >
> > Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and
> > canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing?
> >
> > In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a
> > painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where
> > all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of
> > liberties with accuracy!)
> >
> > A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides
> > weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where
> > the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the
> > front poles.
> >
> > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 07:44:12 -0600

Howdy again group.

I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous
allow dogs on the grounds?

My companion is period-correct (being little changed since the 12 Century) -
not my specific hound, you understand, but the breed in general - golly no,
my dog isn't that old.

Dogs were also a part of camp life but I gather that many Rendezvous are
held in parks and I don't know what their rules are.

I'd appreciate a straw vote on how often my hound could go a tradin with me.

na-ya-whe

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 07:57:27 -0600

Diane
Virtually all Texas rendezvous allow dogs, but very few allow them to =
run free.  Bring a pair of leashs for phideaux, a short one for walking =
him around camp, and a longer one to picket him in camp at all other =
times.
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  When I am made king, this will be the universal rule for =
rendezvous.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 09:16:09 EST

[e-mail] writes:

> I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous
allow dogs on the grounds?>>

Our club shoots and rendezvous allows dogs as do most of the shoots and camps
I've been to here around Montana. Only problem has been those who don't
control dogs and you have dogs wandering through your camp and tents. Then
there is the occasional dog that wants to wander around the targets on the
range. Our small shoots and rondys around here will usually ask someone with
a repeatedly unmannerly dog to keep them under control or not to bring them
anymore. I usually bring only one of my three dogs at a time. It makes them
easier to control and it's easier to keep an eye on them. Dogs will be dogs,
they are friendly and curious, wanting to see everyone and be part of
everything. Of course when you are cooking or eating they want to help with
sampling the fare.

My dogs tend to want to go with the kids. More action there then hanging out
with the old folks. You can also usually get the kids to take your dog off
somewhere for a good "romp", swim or walk.

Seems like the eastern rondys had more restrictions than some of the western
ones. Some of the really big rendezvous, with a lot of public, have been the
only ones I've usually seen with dog restrictions, i.e., Alafia, Fort de
Chartre, etc. With that many people around I can understand why they would
restrict it. They can be a real problem.

I find it most annoying when you are on the firing line and have to stop to
get a dog off the range or when they come in to your camp to steal food.
Don't mind the mannerly beggars who just sit with the mournful look, but have
had some snatch food out of the pan or off a plate. I am a real dog lover,
but again it can be very annoying to have uncontrolled dogs wandering through
everything. When you open it up to dogs for everyone, you take a chance of
getting the uncontrolled dogs. Most dogs I've seen at Rondy have been very
good, but it only takes one to ruin it for all. Hope this helps.

YMOS
Ghosting Wolf

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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 21 Nov 2000 07:37:14 -0700

Linda,
    Off the top of my head, you might check out Karl Bodmer's water colors.
In "People of the First Man", (1833-4 Which has Prince Maximillian's journal in it
too)
Karl paints a couple hide tipis. One is a Assiniboin camp near Fort Union
(pages 70-71) and on page 96 a indian battle outside Fort MacKenzie has four.
It is good to hear about the ones on the list which have used their lodges for
extended
peroids. While I have used mine for up to a week and half, it is not the same as a
winter,
a year or more. Keep the lessons coming. As far as hide tipis, I think this subject
is like alot of others, the information is availible if we just look for it. Too
many times,
we see and soak up the the big picture (or pages of  information) and do recall
the specifics on small things or topics. But hwen we look, we find alot of info that

is helpful.
                                        mike.

p.s. George Catlin draws some lodges in his books "Lettters and Notes on the
Conditions of North American Indians" (two volumes, 1832-9), but don't remember
to what detail his are. I think a Crow lodge is shown in volume one and as some
one on this list mentioned eariler, a picture of two big lodges openned up to allow
alot of people 60 to 70 people (?) to be in them.


Linda Holley wrote:

> Interesting that the painting is 1860.  Canvas was used in the 1850's.  But how
> about earlier for pictures. like the 1830 or so.
>
> Linda Holley
>
> Mike Moore wrote:
>
> > I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference
> > between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a
> > copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the
> > flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows
> > the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on
> > edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting
> > determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be)
> > goes along way in how much detail goes into his work.
> >
> > "Best, Dianne" wrote:
> >
> > > Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more
> > >
> > > You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14'
> > > diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit).
> > >
> > > Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and
> > > canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing?
> > >
> > > In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a
> > > painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where
> > > all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of
> > > liberties with accuracy!)
> > >
> > > A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides
> > > weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where
> > > the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the
> > > front poles.
> > >
> > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 20 Nov 2000 20:56:14 -0700

Diane,   There are several Rdvs. here in California that do not allow
dogs.  After problems with fighting, and biting people a couple of my
favorite Rdvs. disallowed dogs.  I have 2   5 month old Aussie Cattle
Dogs.  We just spent some time at a snowy rendezvous near Donner Pass.
Check the RDVS. flyers to see if dogs are allowed, or not.    hardtack

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From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 26 point white tail
Date: 21 Nov 2000 09:13:07 -0600

A guy in west central Wisconsin shot a 26 pointer north of Chippewa
Falls this weekend.

To see a picture go to:

http://www.chippewa.com/


or

http://www.chippewa.com/display/inn_news/news1.txt

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From: Jim Lockmiller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 10:32:57 -0500

I've been to a few Rondy's where dogs like that would be the next meal.
My Native Friends call them "BLT"  - Black Lab on Toast
Manbear

[e-mail] wrote:

> <snip> when they come in to your camp to steal food.
> Don't mind the mannerly beggars who just sit with the mournful look, but have
> had some snatch food out of the pan or off a plate.
> Ghosting Wolf
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 13:47:12 EST

Dogs at Rendezvous
    I have never read an instance of mountain men having dogs with the
instance of Black Harris and Sublette(?) leaving Cache Valley in January  for
St. Louis to set up the next rendezvous.  They had left a winter encampment
with Indians and I presume it was from the Indians that they got the dog.
I'm fuzzy on recollection but I believe it was a beast of burden to begin
with (though I cannot see a travois going through deep drifts) if so did they
use some sort of tobogan(?).  Anyway the dog was killed in a gruesome way for
food before they were too many days along the winter trail.  Again - I don't
believe Mt. Men were much for having dogs, barking not being an asset when
stealth is a way of life.
    Indians, on the other hand had dogs for several reasons.  So when there
was a mixed camp, there were dogs.  As for me I get really pissed if I
discover "doggy-do" on the bottom of my moccasins.  I hold the owner
responsible.  I don't think this has changed much from 1830s and any
offending pooch runs a risk of ending up in the pot, which puts the burden of
control on the owner.
Richard James

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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money
Date: 21 Nov 2000 12:49:11 -0600

I only been hanging around this cyber outpost for a short time but I feel
inclined to spout a bit...

I am right impressed with knowledgeable help I have gotten with some of the
questions I have posted. Lot of smart people lurking in the shadows here.

Ya'll seem to be friendly bunch and give a warm welcome to a disoriented
stranger. Much appreciate it.

When I ask a question that sounds like it come from a flatlander, ya'll have
been mighty patient with me.

Don't know who many of you folks I'll have a chance to meet, but I look
forward to crossing trails with ya'll - hope you don't laugh too hard the
first time I show up at Rendezvous!

Just wanted to say Megwich!

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)




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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition had a tipi?
Date: 20 Nov 2000 23:55:45 -0700

Oh, I know that one, actually they did both as well as cached poles
in favorite camping spots
joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money
Date: 21 Nov 2000 14:35:42 EST


In a message dated 11/21/0 11:50:32 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Just wanted to say Megwich>>

So what is a Megwich?  Is it Celtic diety?  Maybe something like Wicken
witch?
If it is good - many Megwiches to you, too, from Utah.
Richard James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 26 point white tail
Date: 21 Nov 2000 14:42:02 -0500

Must be removed from the web.  Went there to see and it was just an article
about deer harvest being down.  If you have the jif would love to see the
deer photo.
-C.Kent

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> A guy in west central Wisconsin shot a 26 pointer north of Chippewa
> Falls this weekend.
>
> To see a picture go to:
>
> http://www.chippewa.com/
>
>
> or
>
> http://www.chippewa.com/display/inn_news/news1.txt
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition had a tipi?
Date: 21 Nov 2000 16:30:44 EST

Joe You must have missed what I was talking about. Read The subject line.
Walt said he had heard that Lewis& Clark had a Tipis with them for their
guides to use That may have been made of canvas. Not unless you meant that
Lewis& Clark had favorite camping spots that they cached their poles at ahead
of time. That would have been just as likely as them having a tipis made out
of canvas or hide.
  Been meaning to make it over to see you haven't seen your store yet; one of
these days we'll make it over to see you until then watch your top not.
                                                 Crazy Cyot

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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 17:40:30 -0800

Originally, Alafia in Fla. did not allow dogs because of the alligators. Dogs are
considered bait.  Then when they moved the site to where no alligators were a
problem they just kept the rule.  The Original Southeastern was held in the same
spot as the Alafia and also had the rule.  They also kept the no dogs when they
moved the Southeastern to other areas.  Committees do not want to put up with the
animals.  One Southeastern almost got sued over the issue.  They did not post the
rules about dogs before hand  and some dogs were brought into camp.  It was not
until you got into camp and set up that the you read the rules and found out
there were no dogs.  Long story.....
But I won against the NMLRA.

Linda Holley
Tipi Wastewin
"Good Lodge Woman"

[e-mail] wrote:

> [e-mail] writes:
>
> > I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous
> allow dogs on the grounds?>>
>
> Our club shoots and rendezvous allows dogs as do most of the shoots and camps
> I've been to here around Montana. Only problem has been those who don't
> control dogs and you have dogs wandering through your camp and tents. Then
> there is the occasional dog that wants to wander around the targets on the
> range. Our small shoots and rondys around here will usually ask someone with
> a repeatedly unmannerly dog to keep them under control or not to bring them
> anymore. I usually bring only one of my three dogs at a time. It makes them
> easier to control and it's easier to keep an eye on them. Dogs will be dogs,
> they are friendly and curious, wanting to see everyone and be part of
> everything. Of course when you are cooking or eating they want to help with
> sampling the fare.
>
> My dogs tend to want to go with the kids. More action there then hanging out
> with the old folks. You can also usually get the kids to take your dog off
> somewhere for a good "romp", swim or walk.
>
> Seems like the eastern rondys had more restrictions than some of the western
> ones. Some of the really big rendezvous, with a lot of public, have been the
> only ones I've usually seen with dog restrictions, i.e., Alafia, Fort de
> Chartre, etc. With that many people around I can understand why they would
> restrict it. They can be a real problem.
>
> I find it most annoying when you are on the firing line and have to stop to
> get a dog off the range or when they come in to your camp to steal food.
> Don't mind the mannerly beggars who just sit with the mournful look, but have
> had some snatch food out of the pan or off a plate. I am a real dog lover,
> but again it can be very annoying to have uncontrolled dogs wandering through
> everything. When you open it up to dogs for everyone, you take a chance of
> getting the uncontrolled dogs. Most dogs I've seen at Rondy have been very
> good, but it only takes one to ruin it for all. Hope this helps.
>
> YMOS
> Ghosting Wolf
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 21 Nov 2000 17:51:03 -0800

We do have the pictures of "hide" tipis, but I am interested in the first pictures of
cloth tipis.  Have both books you mention, but I like to be reminded of what I keep
forgetting.  I have a photo of 1854 showing the earliest cloth lodge, but no other
pictures earlier.  And the drawing and  paintings of the earlier time to not show cloth,
just hide tipis.  I know some of you guys out there see what others are blind too.
Keep the information coming.
Did love the material on winter camping.  Some of you may see that come up on the
http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com site.  The most winter camping in snow I have done
is about a week with 3 feet of snow up the sides.  Did not have problem with a fire as I
had a full liner and full ozan.  Kept me very warm and the snow melted down on the sides
of the lodge.  You can put a second lining inside your lodge hanging more vertically
down. Less room to heat and move around in.  I prefer the  grass in-between the lining
and cover and definitely a wind break.  Luckily North Carolina does not have the wind of
the plains.

Linda Holley

Mike Moore wrote:

> Linda,
>     Off the top of my head, you might check out Karl Bodmer's water colors.
> In "People of the First Man", (1833-4 Which has Prince Maximillian's journal in it
> too)
> Karl paints a couple hide tipis. One is a Assiniboin camp near Fort Union
> (pages 70-71) and on page 96 a indian battle outside Fort MacKenzie has four.
> It is good to hear about the ones on the list which have used their lodges for
> extended
> peroids. While I have used mine for up to a week and half, it is not the same as a
> winter,
> a year or more. Keep the lessons coming. As far as hide tipis, I think this subject
> is like alot of others, the information is availible if we just look for it. Too
> many times,
> we see and soak up the the big picture (or pages of  information) and do recall
> the specifics on small things or topics. But hwen we look, we find alot of info that
>
> is helpful.
>                                         mike.
>
> p.s. George Catlin draws some lodges in his books "Lettters and Notes on the
> Conditions of North American Indians" (two volumes, 1832-9), but don't remember
> to what detail his are. I think a Crow lodge is shown in volume one and as some
> one on this list mentioned eariler, a picture of two big lodges openned up to allow
> alot of people 60 to 70 people (?) to be in them.
>
> Linda Holley wrote:
>
> > Interesting that the painting is 1860.  Canvas was used in the 1850's.  But how
> > about earlier for pictures. like the 1830 or so.
> >
> > Linda Holley
> >
> > Mike Moore wrote:
> >
> > > I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference
> > > between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a
> > > copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the
> > > flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows
> > > the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on
> > > edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting
> > > determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be)
> > > goes along way in how much detail goes into his work.
> > >
> > > "Best, Dianne" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more
> > > >
> > > > You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14'
> > > > diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit).
> > > >
> > > > Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and
> > > > canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing?
> > > >
> > > > In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a
> > > > painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where
> > > > all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of
> > > > liberties with accuracy!)
> > > >
> > > > A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides
> > > > weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where
> > > > the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the
> > > > front poles.
> > > >
> > > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 16:58:31 -0600

you wrote:
But I won against the NMLRA.

Linda
What did you win against the NMLRA?
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff


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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 18:27:19 -0800

It could have been money, but what I wanted  was a letter of apology from
the President of NMLRA that they did indeed mess up and a change in rules
for how information is advertised.  I didn't want much.  Just the
acknowledgment of the problems.

Ratcliff wrote:

> you wrote:
> But I won against the NMLRA.
>
> Linda
> What did you win against the NMLRA?
> YMOS
> Lanney Ratcliff
>
> ----------------------
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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 17:22:12 -0800

Oh Lord ! ! ! !

Here we go again !  <GG>
Pendleton




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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 16:32:44 -0700

Dianne,
    Don't let the naysayers stop you from bringing your dog(s) to camp.
Like others have said, call and talk to the booshway and see if any special
rules apply to them before coming. Things like droppings and in a case I had
a few years back- a good friend Cecil brought a nice young dog to camp.
His name was "Fuzzy". Good dog, mix breed I think, not too big, pretty well
trained. That is until Fuzzy thought he needed to mark my bed roll. Good
thing I had a oil cloth on top. Well, I informed Cecil, that if he did it again,
I'd
return the favor. Things like that make great camp stories and are one reason
that
 some people don't like dogs in camp. If they don't growl too much, howl at the
moon all night, bring them. Just beware, dogs are good tasting, especially the
young ones.
                                                mike.

"Best, Dianne" wrote:

> Howdy again group.
>
> I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous
> allow dogs on the grounds?
>
> My companion is period-correct (being little changed since the 12 Century) -
> not my specific hound, you understand, but the breed in general - golly no,
> my dog isn't that old.
>
> Dogs were also a part of camp life but I gather that many Rendezvous are
> held in parks and I don't know what their rules are.
>
> I'd appreciate a straw vote on how often my hound could go a tradin with me.
>
> na-ya-whe
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
> ----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 21 Nov 2000 18:39:14 EST

Linda one thing that one should keep in mind is to the Native America back
then many things the Europeans had to offer had no soul because it had no
life before. Canvas would be one of these things. Especially when you
consider it is inferior to a hide cover when it comes to living year around
in one. The hide cover would keep you warmer so why would they want canvas.
the only reason I could see is out of need do to the lack of Buffalo hides.
Either because of all the hides being all trade off and the numbers of
Buffalo falling off. That is why we don't start seeing Canvas covers until
the late 1850s. For some Tribes it was not until they were put on the
Reservation that they had to start using canvas. Granted Canvas is lighter
but when it comes to warmth it is no match to leather.
     That's my thoughts
                                         Crazy Cyot


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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 21 Nov 2000 19:04:51 -0800

Good thoughts, but why was there such a pride of ownership put on having a
cloth cover tipis in the early 1850s' when buffalo was still plentiful.  It was
a big deal to own such a lodge.  Lodges from cloth, notice I do not say canvas,
was very expensive and a larger lodge could be made without weighing so much.
Ever pick up a buffalo hide cover for a 17' lodge?
I have several photos of tribes with cloth cover and they are not on a
reservation.
To solve this problem or point of view I am still looking for more
documentation in writings and original pictures.

Linda Holley
Tipi Wastewin
"Good Lodge Woman"

[e-mail] wrote:

> Linda one thing that one should keep in mind is to the Native America back
> then many things the Europeans had to offer had no soul because it had no
> life before. Canvas would be one of these things. Especially when you
> consider it is inferior to a hide cover when it comes to living year around
> in one. The hide cover would keep you warmer so why would they want canvas.
> the only reason I could see is out of need do to the lack of Buffalo hides.
> Either because of all the hides being all trade off and the numbers of
> Buffalo falling off. That is why we don't start seeing Canvas covers until
> the late 1850s. For some Tribes it was not until they were put on the
> Reservation that they had to start using canvas. Granted Canvas is lighter
> but when it comes to warmth it is no match to leather.
>      That's my thoughts
>                                          Crazy Cyot
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 21 Nov 2000 18:51:51 EST


In a message dated 11/21/00 3:41:47 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Tribes it was not until they were put on the
Reservation that they had to start using canvas. Granted Canvas is lighter
but when it comes to warmth it is no match to leather.
     That's my thoughts >>

You bring up some good points, Cyot. I'm of the belief that canvas became
more popular because you could build a very large lodge with it being so
light in weight. If the plains folk are anything like my wife, the bigger the
house, the better...<G> Also easier to set up, and nice and bright inside.

Haveing said that, I'll trade you my 20' canvas tipi for your 14' buffalo
hide tipi....

Ymos,
Magpie

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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 19:14:42 -0500

Dogs are like Children.. Okay if quiet & restrained and they also are tender
meat for the pot when they are young.
D

"If you can't be a good example,
then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.."


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: aka Bead Shooter
Date: 21 Nov 2000 19:36:09 EST

Hallo the List,

I'm recently back from an overnight in Helena Montana, and got to spend the
afternoon with Ghosting Wolf (Gene Hickman). A finer Mountaineer, you'd be
hard pressed to find! He picked me up at the hotel, and we spent some time at
a gun show, checked out the baby bears at Fish and Game, (he works there),
headed out to the F&G hunter check point and looked at some nice elk and deer
that had been taken.

From there we drove over to Gene's home where he whipped up a meal fit for a
starvin mountain man. "Chicken Fried" elk steaks, home made bread, fresh
garden potatoes, home canned apples in sugar syrup...... I ate like a pig!

Over dinner, Gene told the story on how he shot a pretty nice Mule deer
recently with his flintlock. Seems when he left home, he grabbed his shootin
bag and gun, and headed up into the hills behind his place. After putting the
sneak on a nice buck, he got off a nice shot and got a fair hit. Upon
reaching into his bag to reload, he found that there were no round balls to
be found! (they fell out at home) With it getting dark, and snowing pretty
good, he decided to track the deer and try to finish it off with his
knife...<VBG>

Well....needless to say, the Mulely had other ideas and fear and better
judgment kept Gene from getting kilt. The next plan involved Gene removing
his favorite large BEADS from his jacket and pouch, and loading his
rifle...using his T-shirt for patching! LOL! I won't go into the details but
"Bead Shooter" was near outta beads by the time the deer went under...had
tears in my eyes to hear him tell it.

Thanks Gene, for a great afternoon, a great meal, and a great story! I sure
enjoyed it....

Ymos,
Magpie



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 21 Nov 2000 21:25:50 EST


Linda you said
 but why was there such a pride of ownership put on having a
  cloth cover tipis in the early 1850s' when buffalo was still plentiful.  It
was
  a big deal to own such a lodge.
Linda where are you getting this Information from. Just wondering what's your
source?
You said Lodges from cloth, notice I do not say canvas,
was very expensive and a larger lodge could be made without weighing so much.
 This is a twenty century mind set bigger is not always better. The bigger
the lodge the colder the lodge and yes I have picked up the cover of an 18'
buffalo hide tipis it weighed around a hundred and fifty pounds. The 14' elk
hide tipis I helped set up once weighed around a one hundred pounds.
I did not say all the tribes I said some of the tribes did not start using
cloth until they were put on the reservation. One or two pictures of a few
cloth tipis does not make wide spread use of them neither does the sale of
enough yardage of cloth to make a tipis.
I've got a question for you, have you ever been out in your large tipis when
it was 20 below or colder? Well, I have when it was 45 below in a 16' and at
the time I wished it was only 14' or smaller.
                                                    Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 21 Nov 2000 22:04:37 EST

Richard James you need to read Ferris Life in the Rocky Mountains Page 130.
He talks about a trapper by the name of Milman going out to check his traps
with his dog and how the dog tried to warn him of an ambush by some Indians.
Seems some of them trappers did have dogs as pets and they were of some use
besides the eating of them.
                                               Crazy Cyot

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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 21 Nov 2000 23:47:01 -0800



>
>  but why was there such a pride of ownership put on having a
>   cloth cover tipis in the early 1850s' when buffalo was still plentiful.  It
> was
>   a big deal to own such a lodge.
> Linda where are you getting this Information from. Just wondering what's your
> source?

> One of my sources can be found at:
> http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/covers.htm

>
> You said Lodges from cloth, notice I do not say canvas,
> was very expensive and a larger lodge could be made without weighing so much.
>  This is a twenty century mind set bigger is not always better.

What makes this a 20th. cent. mind set?  Can it be a woman's' set or how about
having a Hudson bay blanket as compared to a nice ever lasting elk robe.  Or lets
get that flint lock over the old standard bow and arrow.  How about a steel knife
compared to a flint knife. You can only compare one to the other on what you
might prefer or hold more valuable.  Women wanted cloth dresses and blankets to
that old buffalo robe and brain tanned hide for a dress.  What does make
something better than another item of the same use?  And can a writer put this
down on paper the feelings and reasons of the time period as to why people did
things without asking that person. I can only document from what I have read and
seen and there is still so much more to learn.  I keep learning from this group
of "fine" gentlemen all the time.

> The bigger
> the lodge the colder the lodge

And then what about spring, summer and fall?  It isn't always winter.  Didn't
have to worry about heating the place all the time.  Here is where we start
getting into insulation, wind breaks and ozans.  And many times they camped
without a lining.

> and yes I have picked up the cover of an 18'
> buffalo hide tipis it weighed around a hundred and fifty pounds. The 14' elk
> hide tipis I helped set up once weighed around a one hundred pounds.

Heavy isn't it.

>
> I did not say all the tribes I said some of the tribes did not start using
> cloth until they were put on the reservation.

That is true, but you did bring in the decline of the buffalo a little early?
And you imply that canvas was "mostly"  a reservation item by your statement.

> One or two pictures of a few
> cloth tipis does not make wide spread use of them neither does the sale of
> enough yardage of cloth to make a tipis.

I do have many more than one or two photos of the early cloth tipis as I stated.
And there is the documentation of large amounts of "cloth" being sold.  Most of
this I am still researching for my web site and a future book.  So if I do not go
into all the details here, pardon me while I am still gathering information.

>
> I've got a question for you, have you ever been out in your large tipis when
> it was 20 below or colder? Well, I have when it was 45 below in a 16' and at
> the time I wished it was only 14' or smaller.

> You are right that I have not camped in a Large tipi at 20 degrees below zero,
> but I have lived in Alaska at much colder temperatures.  I have a very good
> idea what it would be like from my living and camping experiences there.  I own
> a 17' for the reason of heating and not wanting to carry the "kitchen" sink.
> Also own a 10' for some real cozy camping.  I can put a fire in it and stay
> nice and warm.

Linda Holley.....you know, I like my computer over my old typewriter and the
computer is bigger.  I like my Ford Explorer over my old Toyota Tercel and the
Ford is bigger, uses more gas (to keep me warm) and has Firestone tires. (So much
for the recall)
and I live in a stupid state than cannot pin prick a voting ballot and then count
them.
So much for the education of the Florida resident.




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: aka Bead Shooter
Date: 22 Nov 2000 00:17:47 EST

[e-mail] writes:

> Thanks Gene, for a great afternoon, a great meal, and a great story! I sure
>  enjoyed it....>>

When I saw this "Bead Shooter" subject line I was afraid to open the e-mail.
You were much kinder and gentler in the retelling of the story than I thought
you would be. Thanks.

My lead ball had broken three ribs, went through both lungs and the liver. It
was getting dark, snowing hard and deer was moving into heavy ponderosa pine
scrub. Never lost a deer and I wasn't going to loose this one. I stuck with
him and he was stumbling and falling down. It actually laid down and let me
get up to 15-25 feet when I shot it with the beads. It was dying but I was
afraid of loosing it in the dark, snow and heavy cover.

Magpie forgot to tell you that I shot a rock at the deer, before the beads.
Deer was 50 feet and rock went right over its back. Can't get any accuracy
out of these rocks around here. The first bead was a black skunk bead, around
.50 cal. and fit pretty tight with 3 or 4 patches. It penetrated the neck at
an angle and went in about 4 inches and chipped a piece off the vertebrate.
The next load was two red white-heart beads (8mm) broke the lower jaw and
went through the mouth. All these shots were at about 25 feet with 60-80
grains of fffg. Had to use T-shirt and some leaves for patching on the
smaller beads. Everytime I hit the deer it would jerk it's head from the
impact and get up and take off at a stumbling slow run falling down every 4
or 5 steps. It would go 40-50 yards and lay down. Then I would sneak up and
shoot it again. It was not pretty and I would not recommend it.

I finally killed it, but I had already cut a stick about 3"-4" long,
sharpened it, and whittled it down to slightly smaller than .54 cal. That was
my next shot AKA Private Shannon on the Corps of Discovery. Two things I
learned: use brass beads for decoration on your horn and pouch, and loads
beads with the hole facing out.

YMOS
Bead Shooter

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 22 Nov 2000 01:04:16 EST


In a message dated 11/21/0 08:05:23 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< did have dogs as pets and they were of some use
besides the eating of them.
                                               Crazy Cyot>>

Crazy - let me ask you . . . 1828, you are in Crow country by yourself.  Do
you want a barking dog hanging around your camp
RJ

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 22 Nov 2000 06:16:54 EST

If he was braking at a crow Indian to let me know that they were there. You
bet, better then getting arrow in the back.
                                               Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 22 Nov 2000 06:40:10 EST

I forgot to mention if I had the dog I would not be alone. I would have one
more set of eyes and good nose to help me watch the camp and my back plus
have a good horse guard at night.
         Crazy but no fool Cyot

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: shaker stoves
Date: 22 Nov 2000 06:49:17 -0600

    On a couple occasions I have seen owners of tipees use tin cans with
both ends cut out and lined in a trench from outside to the fire pit. this
provided a source of fresh air to the fire and when covered with dirt did
not distract from appearance.
    Dunno if the indians did anything like that but it is a good idea for
safety.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 22 Nov 2000 07:54:52 EST

Linda every one of the things you mentioned did have some improvements over
what it replaced. When it comes to wet weather nothing can beat wool. When
that woman got that Hudson bay blanket she still had her self a buffalo robe
for when it got good and cold to keep warm with.
I would prefer to live in a house made out of loges, rock or brick, they are
warm in the winter and cooler in the summer but they cost more to build now.
So I live in a framed house. What I'm get at is by the 1850s the price of
beaver was down but the price of buffalo was up. How were they going to get
all the other things they wanted like you mentioned? With the western
migration of whites The price of cloth had to be cheeper then it was in years
past. So for them it would have cost them more to have a hide tipis.
Something to think a bout. Here in Idaho and in most of the rocky mountain
state winters are longer then all the other season put to gather. So I would
want a warm house to live wouldn't you? I know how women like to stay warm so
I think that would be high on the list for reasons to keep a hide tipis. It
was also women's job to keep it warm by gathering the wood as well as put it
up. Which do you think they spent more time doing? Buffalo started to deduce
in numbers faster on the West side of the Rockies. It was mention as early as
the late 1830s by men like Osborn Russell and others. So I do not think that
by say they were on the decline by the 1850s I'm putting it to early.
                                          Crazy Cyot

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: dogs & r'vous
Date: 22 Nov 2000 07:02:35 -0600

    Linda, many years ago at the National Shoots in Friendship there were
two serious incidents with dogs. One involved a five year old girl who had
her face very badly torn up by a dog.  This triggered a series of rules
restricting dogs at any NMLRA event.
    These were very tragic happenings and I can understand if any of that
legacy of caution regarding dogs at NMLRA events still lingers.
    I like dogs but have no patience with loose animals or their owners.  I
have lost valuable cattle to so-called 'family pets'.  If one is chasing my
cows or calves I shoot it. No second chance or appeals.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's mone
Date: 22 Nov 2000 07:17:17 -0600

Richard James asked "So what is a Megwich?"

It is Anishinabe for "Thank you". Oh, in case you haven't run into it, the
Anishinabe people are often called Ojibwa by the whites - it is the
predominant language group in my part of the country, that being Manitoba
and northwestern Ontario. My Anishinabe language skills are rudimentary -
just enough to get myself in trouble on Reserve because I THINK I know what
was said but what I thought was said, wasn't what was actually said.
Confused yet?

The other I occasionally use is "Na-ya-whey" which is the same thing in
Seneca. I once was told how to say thank you in Miniconju but it was a 5
minute speech and be darned if I can remember ANY of it!!!

keep warm....

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 22 Nov 2000 07:21:39 -0600

Thanks all for the comments about dogs in camp.

I hate dog poo on my shoes too. I hope that a plastic bag hidden in a
possibles bag is a permissible sin - don't fancy picking that stuff up with
my fingers.

Loved the term "B.L.T." - Black Lab on Toast!!!

If my dog were not well behaved, I wouldn't have her in camp - probably
wouldn't have her at home too.

Whether dogs, horses, or kids, if it isn't under control, somebody needs a
whack on the back of the head.

Thanks again!

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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From: "Jay Geisinger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 22 Nov 2000 06:52:35 -0800

Klahowya My Friends,

RJ you make two wrong assumptions in you statements against mountain men and
dogs.  First there are 1st hand accounts of them having dogs.  I'm not
saying everyone had a dog along.  I am sure that there were just as many
people around then that did not like dogs around as there are now.  Second
not all dogs are barkers.  I have a short hair that does not bark much at
all.  He tells me someone or something is around by his actions.  And if you
are not supposed to be around my place, he would just as soon come up on you
quiet and get a chunk of you.  If you are lucky you might hear him growl
before he hits you.  On the other hand if I am around and indicate by my
actions that all is OK,  he will lick you and play till your arms fall off.
Since you are insisting on basing your assertions on your opinion of how
dogs act, then here is my humble opinion.....I believe dogs THEN were better
behaved and taught not to bark unless necessary, as a matter of survival,
whether on the trail or at the cabin.  Unlike the dogs of today that must
usually make a ruckus to get there lazy owners away from the television set
to spend time with them.  Again a general statement and not intended to
include all dogs or owners.
YMOHS
PoorBoy



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Don King, Master Gunsmith
Date: 22 Nov 2000 10:22:45 EST

Walt,

I just spotted a beautiful swivel breech rifle by Don King in "Contemporary
Makers of Muzzle Loading Firearms" while doing a little research for a
feller. Is he Mike King's dad, that I met with you, awhile back? And if he
is, does Mike have one of his fathers guns I could talk him out of? I'll send
over whiskey...wimmins... or whatever it takes to get one......<VBG>

Ymos,
Magpie
at chilly Ft Vancouver

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money
Date: 22 Nov 2000 11:30:59 EST

Diane:

Don't worry about that first Rendezvous.  It doesn't matter what you do or
how hard you try, you might as well just accept that it (and all those to
come) are a learning situation.  No one on God's earth could have made more
blunders than I did at my first Rendezvous on the Wind River (Riverton) in
1996.  When I think of it I still cringe and then, last week, just as I
thought I had almost recovered from the dark memory . . . I ran into a man
that was at that first Rendezvous and he has a videotape of me standing in
the center of the circle at opening ceremony in all my glorious historical
inaccuracy.  But damn, it was one good time and every time after that has
shined even brighter.  Just jump in and start making memories.  You will
never regret the journey, even if you regret your mistakes.

Fair weather to you!
Laura Glise

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 22 Nov 2000 12:39:22 EST

In a message dated 11/21/00 10:05:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Crazy - let me ask you . . . 1828, you are in Crow country by yourself.
Do
 you want a barking dog hanging around your camp
 RJ >>

nope... but wouldn't a WELL-TRAINED one to alert you of sneakers comin' up on
you, help retrieve downed game from the water, flush critters out of brush,
etc. be a nice thing to have?    Barney

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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 22 Nov 2000 11:43:48 -0700

[e-mail] wrote:

> Anyway the dog was killed in a gruesome way for food before they were too many
> days along the winter trail.  Again - I don't believe Mt. Men were much for
> having dogs, barking not being an asset when stealth is a way of life.
>
> Richard James

Plus they aren't bad eatin' Dick, have had several at the Browning "Holy Smokes",
served as part of the doings (we where the only two whites per say, of the 1500
native American quests), so you kind of go with the flow.

Later,

Buck Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
__________________________________HRD__
Visit these sites at:
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
http://pages.about.com/conner1/
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________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 22 Nov 2000 13:55:45 EST


In a message dated 11/22/0 04:20:32 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< . . . .If he was braking . . . . >>

O.K. . . . "Braking" . . . I'll go along with that.   Barking at a magpie
when you are alone and practicing stealth and Crows are plentiful in their
own land. . . .  Maybe that is why the "dog man" mentioned does not make much
of an appearance in the annals but other-than-dog-keepers went on to make
history.  Maybe??
RJ

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: To Diane on the trail of the wild Megwich. . . .
Date: 22 Nov 2000 14:05:38 EST

Diane - you take me too seriously  but thank you for the seriously gracious
explanation of the word.  I have talked with Ojibwa on the (a) res in Ontario
and I had a close friend from Minnesota who was Ojibwa  (which he said was
the same as Chippawa, and so did the Canadians),  but they never used the "A"
word to identify their nation.  PROBABLY because they figured I had all the
information I could handle and they didn't want to further confuse me.  ALL,
however, were like you - friendly and gracious.
And for that, let me say, "Megwich",
Richard James

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Don King, Master Gunsmith
Date: 22 Nov 2000 12:08:56 -0700

Yes Magpie.  The Mike King you met is the son of the famous ML maker, Don
King.  Cold over your way?  Still good hunting weather over here.  Have not
seen much action among my friends since the opening week.  Maybe some time
when you get over to Billings.  I can remake the introduction.


Walt
Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 22 Nov 2000 14:17:55 EST


In a message dated 11/22/0 06:22:42 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Thanks all for the comments about dogs in camp.


I hate dog poo on my shoes too. I hope that a plastic bag hidden in a

possibles bag is a permissible sin - don't fancy picking that stuff up with

my fingers.


Loved the term "B.L.T." - Black Lab on Toast!!!


If my dog were not well behaved, I wouldn't have her in camp - probably

wouldn't have her at home too.

>>

Reading all the messages your question generated, I hope you did not pick up
any antagonism from anyone.  It seemed all messages were intent on being
helpful to you --  dog-lovers and otherwise.  I like dogs but have only had
one and that was over half a century ago.  We have had 42 wolves (not all at
the same time) and a coyote - loved them all.  You take critism and teasing
well.  I have a thing going with Crazy Coyote now about dogs and mountain
men.  I think he is starting to catch on that I am just chiding him rather
than dead serious.  When he comes to that conclusion, the fun is all over.
Meanwhile
Megwich
R, James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 22 Nov 2000 14:23:06 EST


In a message dated 11/22/0 07:43:24 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Again a general statement and not intended to

include all dogs or owners.>>

Poorboy
Is it a safe statement then that some mountain men had pooches - some did
not?   Journals and other records seem to deal with the have-nots more than
the haves?  And further, you would have had your dog in tow had you been in
the mountains in 1820s? and finally -- he is a very find animal and friend?
RJ

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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 22 Nov 2000 15:26:42 -0800

You are shifting the whole discussion to something else now than the original
line.
I stick with what I said and see no reason to continue.  You are just rambling.

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

> Linda every one of the things you mentioned did have some improvements over
> what it replaced. When it comes to wet weather nothing can beat wool. When
> that woman got that Hudson bay blanket she still had her self a buffalo robe
> for when it got good and cold to keep warm with.
> I would prefer to live in a house made out of loges, rock or brick, they are
> warm in the winter and cooler in the summer but they cost more to build now.
> So I live in a framed house. What I'm get at is by the 1850s the price of
> beaver was down but the price of buffalo was up. How were they going to get
> all the other things they wanted like you mentioned? With the western
> migration of whites The price of cloth had to be cheeper then it was in years
> past. So for them it would have cost them more to have a hide tipis.
> Something to think a bout. Here in Idaho and in most of the rocky mountain
> state winters are longer then all the other season put to gather. So I would
> want a warm house to live wouldn't you? I know how women like to stay warm so
> I think that would be high on the list for reasons to keep a hide tipis. It
> was also women's job to keep it warm by gathering the wood as well as put it
> up. Which do you think they spent more time doing? Buffalo started to deduce
> in numbers faster on the West side of the Rockies. It was mention as early as
> the late 1830s by men like Osborn Russell and others. So I do not think that
> by say they were on the decline by the 1850s I'm putting it to early.
>                                           Crazy Cyot
>
> ----------------------
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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dogs & r'vous
Date: 22 Nov 2000 15:31:30 -0800

I agree whole hearted with you and do enforce such rules...but you better post
them first and not after the fact.  And the mention of dogs was not in the
insurance issued to NMLRA at the time of my problems.  And on the other
side...would love to see a little Yorkie take down a cow.   And if the mutant
Yorkie was taking down a cow I would shoot it too, first with a camera and then
the gun.  ;-)  But I do know your point as I have personally been attacked by a
family pet.  My dad did kill it.

Linda

Frank Fusco wrote:

>     Linda, many years ago at the National Shoots in Friendship there were
> two serious incidents with dogs. One involved a five year old girl who had
> her face very badly torn up by a dog.  This triggered a series of rules
> restricting dogs at any NMLRA event.
>     These were very tragic happenings and I can understand if any of that
> legacy of caution regarding dogs at NMLRA events still lingers.
>     I like dogs but have no patience with loose animals or their owners.  I
> have lost valuable cattle to so-called 'family pets'.  If one is chasing my
> cows or calves I shoot it. No second chance or appeals.
> Frank G. Fusco
> Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 22 Nov 2000 15:33:21 -0500

At the risk of being dubbed a crumudgeon, I have to side with the "No dogs"
crowd. I love critters... have 2 dogs and 2 cats at home, but you get tired
of hearing them yap and bark all the time. That, and I pick up enough poo
when I am home. A week or so away from the critters is kinda nice once in a
while. A "working dog" (seeing-eye) is another matter. No problem there at
all... but just to have your pets with you... Nope...

Ad Miller


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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: For a change of pace, Happy Thanksgiving;
Date: 22 Nov 2000 22:23:51 -0700


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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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> For a change of pace, Happy Thanksgiving;

Let's take a look at what the Corps Of Discovery are up to:

Thanksgiving

Remember that this was not a Holiday as we know it now, that didn't happen
until the next century and then 50 years before becoming a National Holiday.

On November 24 the captains called everyone together. They had come 4,162 miles
since leaving the Mississippi, Clark estimated. But now a decision was needed:
where to spend the winter. Lewis and Clark
explained the options.

Staying near the ocean meant they might yet meet a ship, get provisions, and
perhaps send a man or two back to Washington by sea with word of their
achievement. And being near ocean water, they could also make salt, which they
would need for the return trip.

They could remain on the north side of the Columbia's mouth, through the local
Chinook I Indians charged what Clark considered extravagant prices for
everything and there did not appear to be an abundance of game.

They could move to the south side (in what is now Oregon). Some Clatsops, who
had crossed over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing.

Or they could head back upriver - perhaps halfway back toward the Nez Perce -
where they could count on drier weather.

Once again the captains broke with protocol in reaching an important decision.
As military commanders - especially as commanders now operating in territory
beyond the borders of the United States - Lewis and
Clark could simply have imposed their own choice.

Instead, the Corps of Discovery would face this issue the same way it had
already dealt with the grueling portage of the Great Falls, the deflating
disappointment of Lemhi Pass, the biting cold and near starvation
of the Bitterroot Mountains, and the rain soaked gales of the lower Columbia.
They would face it together, as a collection of diverse individuals who had
molded themselves into a cohesive unit that was  stronger
than the sum of its particular parts.   E pluribus unum.

One by one, the name of each member of the Corps of Discovery was called out.
And each one's preference was recorded.

Clark's slave York, was allowed to vote - nearly sixty years before slaves in
the rest of America would be emancipated and enfranchised.

Sacagawea, the Indian woman, voted too - more than a century before either
women or Indians were granted the full rights of citizenship.

In the end, a majority decided to cross to the south side of the Columbia.
There, together they would spend the winter with all of North America between
themselves and their countrymen.

Capt. Lewis Branded a tree with his name, Date, etc..... The party all Cut the
first letters of their names on different trees.... I marked my name, the Day &
year on an alder tree....  William Clark. By Land from the U. States in 1804 &
1805.
                                                                WILLIAM CLARK

Not as fancy a November 24th as we have come to be accustomed to, with large
amounts of food, family and left overs, but to them working  as a unit and
making that crossing to be with the Clatsops, who had crossed over there,
promised plenty of elk for food and clothing they had a wonderful day to be
thankfull for.

ôLEWIS & CLARK / The Journey of the Corps of Discoveryö is the main source
where this information was gotten from, Dayton Duncan & Ken Burns have done a
wonderful piece of work on these adventures of Lewis & Clark and the Corps of
Discovery members. A must have book for anyone interested in the travels of
this group and the mapping of America.

Later,

Buck Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
__________________________________HRD__
Visit these sites at:
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
http://pages.about.com/conner1/
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___


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Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>

<blockquote TYPE=CITE><a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">For
a change of pace, Happy Thanksgiving;</a></blockquote>
Let's take a look at what the Corps Of Discovery are up to:
<p>Thanksgiving
<p>Remember that this was not a Holiday as we know it now, that didn't
happen until the next century and then 50 years before becoming a National
Holiday.
<p>On November 24 the captains called everyone together. They had come
4,162 miles since leaving the Mississippi, Clark estimated. But now a decision
was needed: where to spend the winter. Lewis and Clark
<br>explained the options.
<p>Staying near the ocean meant they might yet meet a ship, get provisions,
and perhaps send a man or two back to Washington by sea with word of their
achievement. And being near ocean water, they could also make salt, which
they would need for the return trip.
<p>They could remain on the north side of the Columbia's mouth, through
the local Chinook I Indians charged what Clark considered extravagant prices
for everything and there did not appear to be an abundance of game.
<p>They could move to the south side (in what is now Oregon). Some Clatsops,
who had crossed over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing.
<p>Or they could head back upriver - perhaps halfway back toward the Nez
Perce - where they could count on drier weather.
<p>Once again the captains broke with protocol in reaching an important
decision. As military commanders - especially as commanders now operating
in territory beyond the borders of the United States - Lewis and
<br>Clark could simply have imposed their own choice.
<p>Instead, the Corps of Discovery would face this issue the same way it
had already dealt with the grueling portage of the Great Falls, the deflating
disappointment of Lemhi Pass, the biting cold and near starvation
<br>of the Bitterroot Mountains, and the rain soaked gales of the lower
Columbia. They would face it together, as a collection of diverse individuals
who had molded themselves into a cohesive unit that was  stronger
<br>than the sum of its particular parts.   E pluribus unum.
<p>One by one, the name of each member of the Corps of Discovery was called
out. And each one's preference was recorded.
<p>Clark's slave York, was allowed to vote - nearly sixty years before
slaves in the rest of America would be emancipated and enfranchised.
<p>Sacagawea, the Indian woman, voted too - more than a century before
either women or Indians were granted the full rights of citizenship.
<p>In the end, a majority decided to cross to the south side of the Columbia.
There, together they would spend the winter with all of North America between
themselves and their countrymen.
<p>Capt. Lewis Branded a tree with his name, Date, etc..... The party all
Cut the first letters of their names on different trees.... I marked my
name, the Day & year on an alder tree....  William Clark. By Land
from the U. States in 1804 & 1805.
<br>
WILLIAM CLARK
<p>Not as fancy a November 24th as we have come to be accustomed to, with
large amounts of food, family and left overs, but to them working
as a unit and making that crossing to be with the Clatsops, who had crossed
over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing they had a wonderful
day to be thankfull for.
<p>ôLEWIS & CLARK / The Journey of the Corps of Discoveryö is the main
source where this information was gotten from, Dayton Duncan & Ken
Burns have done a wonderful piece of work on these adventures of Lewis
& Clark and the Corps of Discovery members. A must have book for anyone
interested in the travels of this group and the mapping of America.
<p>Later,
<p>Buck Conner
<br>Resource & Documentation for:
<br>________________________________________
<br>HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
<br>__________________________________HRD__
<br>Visit these sites at:
<br><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A>
<br><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/conner1/">http://pages.about.com/conner1/</A>
<br><A HREF="http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/">http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/</A>
<br>________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___
<br> </html>

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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: For a change of pace, Happy Thanksgiving;
Date: 22 Nov 2000 10:41:11 -0700

Another interesting Lewis & Clark Book- (Back to that question of a week
ago)- "Lewis and Clark among the Indians" by James P Ronda......ISBN
0-8032-8929-4             A day late, and a dollar short, I know...but
Buck's posting reminded me.   Happy Thanksgiving to all.  We'll be
celebrating with a buffalo roast....  can hardly wait.     hardtack

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 23 Nov 2000 00:14:56 EST

If I may run the risk of sounding like a greenhorn...I would like to
interject a thought.  The dog would not be a life-risk in Crow country.
Wasn;'t it the Crow who prided themselves on never having killed a white man?
 They would, however, steal him blind of horses, plunder and anything else.
Wouldn't a dog be a boon to give you "early warning" of any Crow or other
"boogers" sneaking up around your camp?  Can't say the same thing if it were
Blackfeet country, however!!!!

-C.Kent

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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: To Diane on the trail of the wild Megwich. . . .
Date: 23 Nov 2000 07:09:52 -0600

Richard wrote "Diane - you take me too seriously  but thank you for the
seriously gracious
explanation of the word."

Golly, I never even felt that leg getting longer......

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 23 Nov 2000 07:31:01 -0600

Well, I have heard all the anti-dog sentiments and I agree with every one of
them! A well behaved and loyal dog is an ally and a companion ...... a
poorly behaved or unreliable dog is SUPPER!

On the other side of the time warp (Y2K), I live in an areas inhabited by
deer, bear, timber wolves, foxes, coyotes, and cougar (all seen within 2
miles of me within the past two years) - keep hoping to see a moose in the
yard - I LOVE moose (cooked) - and I live with a young hound who has a nose
like no other, eyesight and hearing better than my 51-year-old carcass can
manage. Even though my hound lives in the house with me, she is almost
always aware of any unexpected goings-on before I am and gives me the
heads-up. Sometimes she tips me off to activities that I can't even verify
until daylight the next day. She also tells me whether the activity is small
animal, large animal, dangerous animal, or human by the way she reacts and
what she does about it.

In all the oral history I have heard and much of what I have read, I don't
know if there was ever a Native community without dogs. Their "early warning
system" was much valued to protect the village from surprise attack (just
try sneaking up on a pack of dogs and silencing them all at once!). I know
that dogs were a part of Iroquois life (there's a ceremony around the
sacrifice of a white dog) and that on the prairies they were THE pack animal
before the horse. The dogs packed everything from personal goods to tipi
poles.

Thanks all, it has been an interesting chin-wag.

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 23 Nov 2000 07:47:00 -0600

Sorry fellas, I think Linda is on the right track here (from what little I
know).

You're living on the bald-a## prairie, following the herds of Buffalo to
feed your family, trying to stay away from your enemies, and always "taking
to ground" in some sheltered spot for the winter. Your original form of
transporting your goods from place to place was dogs. Later, if you were
lucky, you had a horse or two.

The factor that limited how much stuff you could have was WEIGHT. You could
have no more household goods than what you could pack on the backs of the
family and whatever critters you had - and everything had to be quickly
packed and quick on the trail.

A cloth tipi (for the majority of the year) would be to die for - light,
small when folded, durable (dries fast, not inclined to rot, if dry). You
could either travel a lot lighter or carry a larger home for the same
weight. Come winter, there were so many ways of improving the "insulation"
that I am not sure the cover is a significant factor anymore. Evergreen
boughs laid against the outside, grass stuffed behind the liner, a good
sheltered location, a windbreak, etc. In 20th Century terms, I don't think
there is a lot of difference between the R value of a tanned hide and a
layer of heavy cloth.

Were it me chasing Buffalo thru the prairie grass, I'd be travelling in a
cloth covered tipi and have my hide cover stashed at my wintering place.

That's all for now.....

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: dogs
Date: 23 Nov 2000 08:01:00 -0600

Linda Holley wrote,

    <would love to see a little Yorkie take down a cow>

    First, Linda, I find it very sick that you would "love" to see a dog
maim or kill a cow.
    One the incidents in which I lost cattle involved a medium sized dog
that attacked a cow and calf while in the birth process. The calf was
halfway out and the dog started chewing on its face. The terrified cow began
running with the hapless calf hanging out. I arrived only to see the cow
running, calf hanging out and the dog hanging onto the still alive but
mortally wounded calf.
    It was days before I could corral the cow with the calf still not
delivered but dead inside the mother who was now seriously infected.  I lost
a valuable purebred registered cow and a calf with potential as a champion
bull.  Aside from the senseless loss of the animals and their suffering, it
cost me thousands of dollars.
    I have treated sick and wounded animals and people but have never seen a
sight so disgusting before in my life as that cow running with her half-born
calf hanging out and the dog trying to eat the calf on the run.
    I bet you would have "loved" to be there to see that.
    I eventually shot the dog and would have done unspeakable things to the
owner if the law allowed.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas



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From: "Jay Geisinger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Happy Thanksgiving
Date: 23 Nov 2000 06:31:20 -0800

Klahowya My Friends,

I Hope this writing finds everyone in good spirits and health.  May the
Great Spirit bless each and every one and may we all be Thankful for said
blessings.  Happy Thanksgiving my friends.
YMOS
PoorBoy



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From: [e-mail] (Brad Everett)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 23 Nov 2000 08:20:27 -0600

Yer close , but the way I heard it was they said they had never taken a
white mans SCALP! Big differance to the Indian's way of thinking.
Trapper,
 Trek'n through time, backwards!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 11:14 PM


> If I may run the risk of sounding like a greenhorn...I would like to
> interject a thought.  The dog would not be a life-risk in Crow country.
> Wasn;'t it the Crow who prided themselves on never having killed a white
man?



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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Thanksgiving
Date: 23 Nov 2000 09:33:36 -0500

From my home to yours... may all of you have a safe and happy Thanksgiving.
Let us pause here a moment to give thanks to those who came before us... who
opened up this wonderful land... and to those who sacraficed their all so
that we may live as we do today. On this day, and always... may the Spirit
of the Wolf  watch over you all and guide your steps....

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dogs
Date: 23 Nov 2000 09:42:38 EST


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 Buzzards do the same thing, and when one was shot picking the eyes out of a
calf in birth, the shooter was arrested.  Buzzards are protected.  Lions,
wolfes, hawks, owls, can be shot when destroying livestock, but I guest not
buzzards.  He was arrested and win or lose it cost money to defend.  I have
trapped many a dog that was destroying cattle, but never one as small as a
yorkie.  If we can't laugh we might as well give up.
                                           TrapRJoe

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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=2> Buzzards do the same thing, and when one was shot picking the eyes out of a <BR>calf in birth, the shooter was arrested.  Buzzards are protected.  Lions, <BR>wolfes, hawks, owls, can be shot when destroying livestock, but I guest not <BR>buzzards.  He was arrested and win or lose it cost money to defend.  I have <BR>trapped many a dog that was destroying cattle, but never one as small as a <BR>yorkie.  If we can't laugh we might as well give up.
<BR>                                           TrapRJoe</FONT></HTML>

--part1_d.cabf692.274e86de_boundary--

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 23 Nov 2000 10:33:18 EST

Am just curious if the Crows are still a-thieven ur horses n plunder?   flea

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dogs
Date: 23 Nov 2000 11:43:34 EST

Last year, I came home from work to find that some stray dog had ripped the
utters off my favorite goat.  The size of the dog isn't so much the question
here as a chihuahua or two could have inflicted the same death upon her as
could have a larger  hound.  The trouble is the instinctive nature of dogs
and particularly when they pack up in groups.   In my county signs are
numerous signs are posted along roadways informing dog owners that their
hounds may be shot on site if disturbing livestock,  ie open season.
    Feral cats are my pet peave, however,  due to the great numbers of  wild
baby ducks, quail,  pheasants and other small critters they kill for 'sport'
.   I've lost many dozens of young free range run baby chicks to these
buggers.  In all they seem to be pretty poor at rodent control.  I know there
are a few good 'ratters' out there but they seem to be rare.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
Date: 23 Nov 2000 12:22:32 EST


In a message dated 11/23/0 06:48:06 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<A cloth tipi (for the majority of the year) would be to die for - light,

small when folded, durable (dries fast, not inclined to rot, if dry). You

could either travel a lot lighter or carry a larger home for the same

weight. Come winter, there were so many ways of improving the "insulation"

that I am not sure the cover is a significant factor anymore.>>

It surprises me that with all the dialogue about fabric/hide tipis, no one
makes reference to the books by my friends, the Laubins (gone under - but
still my friends)  They cite fabric as not only being lighter and less bulky
(same weight - more living space) but of greater duration, since hide tipis
lasted only a year and fabric about 5 years and MUCH less labor going into
them.  They also talk about insulation.  So far as heating, tipi heating is
radiant.  I have found that in the coldest weather a small twig fire is not
only cheery but the heat bounces off the liner and back into the lodge
proper.  I recently spent some in-depth research with priviledged Shoshone
material and learned that they built brush windbreaks in a circle around
their lodges.  Many of what they called tipis were not the hide nor the
fabric variety but were wheat-grass mats laid tipi-fashion over the typical
lodge pole cone.  Probably these would more correctly be called wikki-ups.
These were mixed in some camps with both hide and fabric lodges.  Not my
choice, but it is true history.

Richard James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 23 Nov 2000 12:31:58 EST


In a message dated 11/23/0 08:34:11 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Am just curious if the Crows are still a-thieven ur horses n plunder?   flea
>>

I havn't met that many down here as this is Shoshone country, but of the ones
I have known I couldn't hope to know nicer people.  In some ways they may
seen irresponsible by OUR standards,  but they have their own values and rate
as high on the honor scale and happiness achieved scale as anyone
R. James

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From: "atthesea" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Era Clothing
Date: 23 Nov 2000 13:49:23 -0800

Happy Thanksgiving the List:
Wondering if any of you can recommend a site to search to purchase some
appropriate clothing for some mountain man apparel?
Thanks,
Ghostrider in rainy and cool Coos Bay, Oregon


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From: "Douglas Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Era Clothing
Date: 23 Nov 2000 17:28:02 -0600

Leather or cloth?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 3:49 PM


> Happy Thanksgiving the List:
> Wondering if any of you can recommend a site to search to purchase some
> appropriate clothing for some mountain man apparel?
> Thanks,
> Ghostrider in rainy and cool Coos Bay, Oregon
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Era Clothing
Date: 23 Nov 2000 18:32:00 EST

 enjoy the lookin' Ghostrider. and to you and the entire list:  HAPPY
THANKSGIVING!!!
<A HREF="http://www.jastown.com/">
Jas. Townsend & Son, Inc. Home Page</A>  <A
HREF="http://www.clearwaterhats.com/">ClearWater Hats</A>  <A
HREF="http://www.scenic-idaho.com/CoyotesCapotes/">Coyote's Capotes</A>  <A
HREF="http://www3.sympatico.ca/michel.viger/canadian-boot.htm">Canadian
Boot/Bottes Sauvages</A>  <A
HREF="http://www.catalogcity.com/ViewCover.cfm?VID=150674">Panther Primitives
</A>  <A HREF="http://hatcrafters.com/index.html">Hatcrafters Home Page</A>
<A HREF="http://www.dixiegun.com/">Dixie Gun Works

</A>Barn
Today's word of the day:    can you say FLORIDUH?

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From: "atthesea" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Era Clothing
Date: 23 Nov 2000 16:23:48 -0800

Doug:
Maybe a little of both...maybe leather pants, cloth other stuff...???  Don't
really have a written in stone plan...just wanna look at some stuff to help
make up my somewhat turkey-hazed mind.
Thanks,
Ghostrider


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From: "atthesea" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Era Clothing
Date: 23 Nov 2000 16:25:48 -0800

Hey Living in the Past:
There is an evenings worth of sites to drool, (drool currently composed of
turkey, cranberry sauce, etc, but drool nonetheless).
Thanks,
Ghostrider


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From: [e-mail] (H Steven Pepke)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Era Clothing
Date: 23 Nov 2000 18:19:16 -0800 (PST)

Ghostrider,
I've had good luck with a company called Twin Otter Trading, in Kent,
WA. They even have stuff for "King Size" guys, very high quality, should
last for many years. Tim and Juanita are good people to deal with.
http://twootter.freeservers.com
HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!

True Bear
Issaquah, WA


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 23 Nov 2000 22:06:13 EST

Just curious...how might one rate a modern Crow as "irresponsible" by our
standards?
Not so much HOW...but in what vein of thought?  I have a curiosity about
tribal cultures and their differing ways of approaching life.  (Started when
I had to deal with an asian in-law and led from there to Native American
tribal cultures).  Thanks for the info.

-C.Kent

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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Thanksgiving Hunt
Date: 23 Nov 2000 21:05:04 -0800

Just a short note on a wee little jaunt through the woods of North
Idaho.

Picked up my flinter, threw on a capote and my bags and horns, doubled
checked to make sure my small bag of balls was indeed in the shooting
bag with the extra flints, and headed out the door just at legal
shooting light (making sure that Jade the over-helpful Brittany Spaniel
was locked up).  Walked up the hill through my first pasture gate,
fought my way valiantly through the mob of protesting ponies who stated
in no uncertain that it indeed WAS feeding time.  Anyway, after
successfully running the gauntlet of my pushy hoofed friends, I headed
up the mountain.

About a 100 yards up the hill, I hear the warning snort of a whitetail,
and there, sure enough, were four deer about 100 yards further up the
hill, but obscured by light growth and a bit of a fog.  I raised the
rifle, then put it back down after not being able to get a clear view of
any of the deer.  The deer still hadn't moved, just milled a bit in
front of me, and they hadn't winded me as the wind was coming from my
right front quarter.  Sneaking was out of the question given the crunchy
snow underfoot, so I moved at a slight angle off to my right, which
would bring me in another 25 yards to a good shooting position.

Now keep in mind, the deer still hadn't fled, and while alert, were not
sure of what to do.  Then... unexpectedly, another warning snort, loud
and authoritative from my backside.  The deer, now sure there was a
predator afoot, didn't tarry this time, they fled through the woods and
were gone in an instant.

Disappointed, I turned to verify the author of the warning snort that
had come from behind me, and had scattered my meat for the winter.
There, on a small rise, where he could see me but not smell me, stood my
prize Appaloosa colt, 7 months old and attempting to look like the herd
stallion... nostrils a flaring and staring at me wild eyed.  For a
fleeting moment, I toyed with the idea of a freezer full of tasty young
horse, but opted out of it for fear of the wrath of me women folk.

The rest of the day was a nice walk, if devoid of any game.

The moral of the story..... Feed the bloody horses first, then go
afield.

Regards and Happy Thanksgiving from the northwoods of Idaho

Lee Newbill


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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Era Clothing
Date: 23 Nov 2000 21:12:08 -0800

H Steven Pepke wrote:

> Ghostrider,
> I've had good luck with a company called Twin Otter Trading, in Kent,

I would second that.  A husband and wife team, I've a shirt from them.  High
quality, reasonable price, and good folks to deal with.

Lee Newbill of North Idaho


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From: "Daniel L. Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: For a change of pace, Happy Thanksgiving;
Date: 23 Nov 2000 23:17:19 -0700

> THIS IS A MESSAGE IN 'MIME' FORMAT.  Your mail reader does not support MIME.
> Please read the first section, which is plain text, and ignore the rest.
--Interpart.Boundary.11.22.33.M2Y13129
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hey gang,

Just got in from hunting in a special season,
private property hunt for white tails, got a nice
8 point - eastern count.

Logged on to what's going on and saw Buck's
message about L&C - Corps of Discovery boys at
Thanksgiving, good stuff. We don't know how lucky
we have it when compared to thier hardships. But
would still have liked to been with them.

Happy Late Thanksgiving.



Later,
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith
Research & Documentation for:
_____________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
________________________________________HRD__
Visit these period camp sites at:
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/
http://pages.about.com/conner1/
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
_____________________________________________
Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com
--Interpart.Boundary.11.22.33.M2Y13129
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From: "Gary A. Bell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 24 Nov 2000 00:43:39 -0800

Well said Jin-o-ta-ka,

"Best, Dianne" wrote:

> Well, I have heard all the anti-dog sentiments and I agree with every one of
> them! A well behaved and loyal dog is an ally and a companion ...... a
> poorly behaved or unreliable dog is SUPPER!

I completely agree.  I would only like to add the notionadd that the respect we
want to get from everyone else is exactly the same level and kind of respect we
must then give everyone.  If a 'vous setting has lots of folks attending, and
even a minority are not dog friendly folks, seems to me that the only dog
welcome by all would be an invisible one, or one at least not seen nor heard.

Wok yer dog?  Any favorite recipes?

> ..... and that on the prairies they were THE pack animal
> before the horse. The dogs packed everything from personal goods to tipi
> poles.

Recall the Sign for dog:  right hand extended, palm down, thumb and fingers
closed in except first and second fingers extended out and somewhat down in a V
shape, and this V drawn to the right across in front of the speaker to indicate
the animal that everybody recognized as the dragger of the travois (sp?).  That
would only work as a universally recognized sign across the plains if everybody
was particularly familiar with the dogs hauling everything.  I get a big charge
out of how old the sign language was, that in this instance it pre-dates the
arrival of horses in the plains.   Clearly the use of sign is far older than
that, but what we know of it today is limited to what several Army officers
wrote about, by way of instructing their successors in the sign they used.
Might consider re-naming it Army Sign Language.

Thanks for hearing me, on this day of thanks.


Heron
a lurker hereabouts


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 24 Nov 2000 09:52:47 -0500

Hey... I ate dog when I was overseas... (Nam)... if fixed right... not too
bad... *grins*  Puppy best...

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 24 Nov 2000 10:08:29 EST


--part1_c1.905fe5f.274fde6d_boundary
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Hi!

      I like that term Army Sign Language.  Maybe it could be called ASL for
short.  I am not sure if that term has been used before.

     Tom Orr
>
> Recall the Sign for dog:  right hand extended, palm down, thumb and fingers
> closed in except first and second fingers extended out and somewhat down in
> a V
> shape, and this V drawn to the right across in front of the speaker to
> indicate
> the animal that everybody recognized as the dragger of the travois (sp?).
> That
> would only work as a universally recognized sign across the plains if
> everybody
> was particularly familiar with the dogs hauling everything.  I get a big
> charge
> out of how old the sign language was, that in this instance it pre-dates the
> arrival of horses in the plains.   Clearly the use of sign is far older than
> that, but what we know of it today is limited to what several Army officers
> wrote about, by way of instructing their successors in the sign they used.
> Might consider re-naming it Army Sign Language.
>
> Thanks for hearing me, on this day of thanks.
>
>
> Heron
> a lurker hereabouts
>
>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=2>Hi!</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><I>      </I>I like that term Army Sign Language.  Maybe it could be called ASL for <BR>short.  I am not sure if that term has been used before.
<BR>
<BR>     Tom Orr
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>Recall the Sign for dog:  right hand extended, palm down, thumb and fingers
<BR>closed in except first and second fingers extended out and somewhat down in <BR>a V
<BR>shape, and this V drawn to the right across in front of the speaker to <BR>indicate
<BR>the animal that everybody recognized as the dragger of the travois (sp?).  <BR>That
<BR>would only work as a universally recognized sign across the plains if <BR>everybody
<BR>was particularly familiar with the dogs hauling everything.  I get a big <BR>charge
<BR>out of how old the sign language was, that in this instance it pre-dates the
<BR>arrival of horses in the plains.   Clearly the use of sign is far older than
<BR>that, but what we know of it today is limited to what several Army officers
<BR>wrote about, by way of instructing their successors in the sign they used.
<BR>Might consider re-naming it Army Sign Language.
<BR>
<BR>Thanks for hearing me, on this day of thanks.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Heron
<BR>a lurker hereabouts
<BR>
<BR>
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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs & 'Vous
Date: 24 Nov 2000 09:35:35 -0600

I have had a lot of dogs in my 51 years. A few times, I have had to put a
dog down for "unacceptable behaviour" and it broke my heat every time. I
love them little critters!

I have also kept stock, horses, and had to defend my stock from feral dogs.
I didn't shed any tears for shotgunning dogs that had been after my stock
and I hunted them with all the gusto of a she bear defending her cubs.

I had an old Bloodhound a few years back and, when I moved to my present
place, she escaped a couple of times. She was terrible shy of people and
wouldn't have gone to a stranger, but she was friendly with other animals so
I went and talked to the cattle and horse people in the area. She was old,
hard of hearing, and her eyes weren't too good.

One feller up the road had cattle and said that if he saw my dog near his
cattle, he'd kill her. I said he shouldn't do that, that she wouldn't hurt
any animal - he said he didn't care, that he'd shoot her anyway - I said
that if he shot my old friend, he'd better make sure his cattle never got
out and that his dog never left his property!

Some people got more stupids than common sense!!!

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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From: "Gary A. Bell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs & 'Vous
Date: 24 Nov 2000 09:23:16 -0800



"Best, Dianne" wrote:

> ....any animal - he said he didn't care, that he'd shoot her anyway - I said
> that if he shot my old friend, he'd better make sure his cattle never got
> out and that his dog never left his property!
>
> Some people got more stupids than common sense!!!

Common sense, perhaps the best oxymoron.  Nothing at all common 'bout good
sense.  Downright rare.

Heron


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From: "Gary A. Bell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sign Language
Date: 24 Nov 2000 09:44:00 -0800


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Tom Orr <[e-mail]> wrote

     I like that term Army Sign Language.  Maybe it could be
called ASL for
short.  I am not sure if that term has been used before.

    Tom Orr

Hi Tom, sorry, American Sign Language is the big sign talk for
the historically challenged majority.

In addition to the 'dog' sign (pun slipped in there -- huh!)
there appears to be no known sign for fur or pelt.  I think it is
interesting that of all the books we've seen and all the
discussion and personal experiences throughout our little coven
of plains native sign language affictionados, with a collective
experience of hundreds of years between us this Army filter on
what we have available is amazing.   Most popular theory is that
the few writers that preserved any of this in the late 1800's
only recorded the sign they used in their Army work.  They were
passing the tool to future Army officers and not recording
already largely vanished cultures for later anthropologists to
ponder.

Anybody out there with information or thoughts we haven't
covered?

Heron

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>

<p>Tom Orr <[e-mail]> wrote
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1><i>
</i>I like that term Army Sign Language.  Maybe it could be called
ASL for</font></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>short.
I am not sure if that term has been used before.</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>
Tom Orr</font></font></font><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Hi Tom, sorry,
American Sign Language is the big sign talk for the historically challenged
majority.</font></font></font><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>In addition to
the 'dog' sign (pun slipped in there -- huh!) there appears to be no known
sign for fur or pelt.  I think it is interesting that of all the books
we've seen and all the discussion and personal experiences throughout our
little coven of plains native sign language affictionados, with a collective
experience of hundreds of years between us this Army filter on what we
have available is amazing.   Most popular theory is that the
few writers that preserved any of this in the late 1800's only recorded
the sign they used in their Army work.  They were passing the tool
to future Army officers and not recording already largely vanished cultures
for later anthropologists to ponder.</font></font></font><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Anybody out there
with information or thoughts we haven't covered?</font></font></font><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1></font></font></font>
<p>Heron</html>

--------------77F280B01D287018C8DA3ED7--


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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dogs
Date: 24 Nov 2000 14:06:16 -0800

No, I would not like to see a dog take down a cow....but you missed the humour
or impossibility of the fact that I said a particular breed of dog, a Yorkie.
The statement was said with tongue and cheek.  Geezzzz, are we all a little up
tight because there is no newly elected president or something???  Are your
"chads" all over the floor or do you feel "dimpled"?   Take it easy Frank :=)
and have a nice holiday.

Linda Holley

Frank Fusco wrote:

> Linda Holley wrote,
>
>     <would love to see a little Yorkie take down a cow>
>
>     First, Linda, I find it very sick that you would "love" to see a dog
> maim or kill a cow.
>     One the incidents in which I lost cattle involved a medium sized dog
> that attacked a cow and calf while in the birth process. The calf was
> halfway out and the dog started chewing on its face. The terrified cow began
> running with the hapless calf hanging out. I arrived only to see the cow
> running, calf hanging out and the dog hanging onto the still alive but
> mortally wounded calf.
>     It was days before I could corral the cow with the calf still not
> delivered but dead inside the mother who was now seriously infected.  I lost
> a valuable purebred registered cow and a calf with potential as a champion
> bull.  Aside from the senseless loss of the animals and their suffering, it
> cost me thousands of dollars.
>     I have treated sick and wounded animals and people but have never seen a
> sight so disgusting before in my life as that cow running with her half-born
> calf hanging out and the dog trying to eat the calf on the run.
>     I bet you would have "loved" to be there to see that.
>     I eventually shot the dog and would have done unspeakable things to the
> owner if the law allowed.
> Frank G. Fusco
> Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
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From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: help!dieingfromanoverdoseofrendezvousanddogs
Date: 24 Nov 2000 12:14:33 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 24 Nov 2000 14:47:48 EST


In a message dated 11/23/0 08:08:31 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Just curious...how might one rate a modern Crow as "irresponsible" by our
standards?
Not so much HOW...but in what vein of thought?  I have a curiosity about
tribal cultures and their differing ways of approaching life.  (Started when
I had to deal with an asian in-law and led from there to Native American
tribal cultures).  Thanks for the info.>>

A person has to be really careful about everything they say these days, don't
they? or they will be picked up by some Democratic lawyer somewhere as being
"Politically Incorrect" -- except me and I have been at this too many years
to care or do anything but call it as it is.

O.K. "irresponsible by our standards" as applied to some particular Indians I
know.  Not necessarily negative - akin to right-brained (like one of my sons)
- given more to the aesthetic than concern for time and financial security as
we see it in the predominate society of the day and throughout centuries.
Sort of the grasshopper in the grasshopper and the ant annalogy.

This isn't much of an answer, but that wasn't much of a question, was it?
Next??
R.James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: help!dieingfromanoverdoseofrendezvousanddogs
Date: 24 Nov 2000 15:47:55 EST

so - what's your message??

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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: help!dieingfromanoverdoseofrendezvousanddogs
Date: 24 Nov 2000 15:41:50 -0600

I recognize that the code used in the "Re: section is archacic and possibly
difficult for some to translate, but simply stated, he seems to be
saying---- "Enough, already, about Dogs and Rendezvous."


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 2:47 PM


> so - what's your message??
>
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From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs - Cows
Date: 24 Nov 2000 15:14:01 -0800 (PST)

  Hey Frank,
 We raise and sell Boston Terriers (almost a period,
American Breed).(1860's)
 They usually make more than a calf sells for, and
they go at 6 - 8 weeks !
 I think , I would shoot any cow that was dragging one
of my dogs around all over the place !!!( we do keep
them in a kennel and that remark was "tongue- in -
cheek")
 I have lost a cow from dogs and know how you feel!
 Had the sheriff out to kill them, as they had been
abandoned.He told me not to bother him again "Do it
myself"
 grn

=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

__________________________________________________
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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 24 Nov 2000 17:53:36 -0600 (CST)

On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:52:47 -0500, Addison Miller wrote:

Hey... I ate dog when I was overseas... (Nam)... if fixed right... not too
bad... *grins*  Puppy best...

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


Our best friend was served dog at a banquet in China just 5 years ago.  Mark
says it's ok served as a hot roast, but he liked it better served cold and
sliced for sandwiches the day after.  It's still a very common dish in Aisa.

Susan Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sign Language
Date: 24 Nov 2000 18:59:48 EST


--part1_54.c53b6bf.27505af4_boundary
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In a message dated 11/24/2000 9:43:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> Subj: MtMan-List: Sign Language
> Date: 11/24/2000 9:43:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
> From:    [e-mail] (Gary A. Bell)
> Sender:    [e-mail]
> Reply-to:    [e-mail]
> To:    [e-mail]
>
> Hi!

      I was being facitious in my reference of  ASL as Army Sign Language.  I
am also fluent in American Sign Language as well as Indian Sign.

      Tomkins book on Indian Sign Language was written about 1890 and, as far
as I know,  did not go through the "filter" of J.D. Clark's book designed for
 the military.

      Tom Orr

>
>   Tom Orr <[e-mail]> wrote      I like that term Army Sign Language.
> Maybe it could be called ASL for
> short.  I am not sure if that term has been used before.



     Tom Orr

    Hi Tom, sorry, American Sign Language is the big sign talk for the
> historically challenged majority. In addition to the 'dog' sign (pun slipped
> in there -- huh!) there appears to be no known sign for fur or pelt.  I
> think it is interesting that of all the books we've seen and all the
> discussion and personal experiences throughout our little coven of plains
> native sign language affictionados, with a collective experience of
> hundreds of years between us this Army filter on what we have available is
> amazing.   Most popular theory is that the few writers that preserved any
> of this in the late 1800's only recorded the sign they used in their Army
> work.  They were passing the tool to future Army officers and not recording
> already largely vanished cultures for later anthropologists to ponder.
> Anybody out there with information or thoughts we haven't covered? Heron
>
>

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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/24/2000 9:43:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>[e-mail] writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Subj: <B>MtMan-List: Sign Language</B>
<BR>Date: 11/24/2000 9:43:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
<BR><I>From:    [e-mail] (Gary A. Bell)
<BR>Sender:    [e-mail]
<BR>Reply-to:    [e-mail]
<BR>To:    [e-mail]
<BR></I>
<BR>Hi!</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">      I was being facitious in my reference of  ASL as Army Sign Language.  I <BR>am also fluent in American Sign Language as well as Indian Sign.
<BR>
<BR>      Tomkins book on Indian Sign Language was written about 1890 and, as far <BR>as I know,  did not go through the "filter" of J.D. Clark's book designed for <BR> the military.
<BR>
<BR>      Tom Orr
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>  Tom Orr <[e-mail]> wrote <I>     </I>I like that term Army Sign Language.  <BR>Maybe it could be called ASL for</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">short.  I am not sure if that term has been used before.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">   </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR>     Tom Orr</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR>    </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi Tom, sorry, American Sign Language is the big sign talk for the </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">historically challenged majority.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In addition to the 'dog' sign (pun slipped <BR>in there -- huh!) there appears to be no known sign for fur or pelt.  I <BR>think it is interesting that of all the books we've seen and all the <BR>discussion and personal experiences throughout our little coven of plains <BR>native sign language affictionados, with a collective experience of <BR>hundreds of years between us this Army filter on what we have available is <BR>amazing.   Most popular theory is that the few writers that preserved any <BR>of this in the late 1800's only recorded the sign they used in their Army <BR>work. !
 They were passing the tool to future Army officers and not recording <BR>already largely vanished cultures for later anthropologists to ponder.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>Anybody out there with information or thoughts we haven't covered?</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> Heron </XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 24 Nov 2000 19:44:42 -0800

OK...now that we are in the "dog eat dog" mind set....
I ate dog in Yugoslavia one night.  It was the only thing the Russian guards
would let us have in the way of food after being detained at a boarder
crossing...long story there.
But it was very good.  Would do it again any day, but not with my own dog.
Lets' face it, it is still a specialty dish on a few reservations.  Ever see
some of the "old" pictures on how they prepared dog???  Like with octopus, I
would rather eat it, than see it killed or cooked.

Linda Holley

Susan Gilbert wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:52:47 -0500, Addison Miller wrote:
>
> Hey... I ate dog when I was overseas... (Nam)... if fixed right... not too
> bad... *grins*  Puppy best...
>
> Ad Miller
> Alderson, WV
>
> Our best friend was served dog at a banquet in China just 5 years ago.  Mark
> says it's ok served as a hot roast, but he liked it better served cold and
> sliced for sandwiches the day after.  It's still a very common dish in Aisa.
>
> Susan Gilbert
> 6 Beaver Camp
>
> ----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 24 Nov 2000 23:27:47 EST

R. James,

Have to agree with you on that one! <VBG> The grasshopper analogy actually
puts it in a good frame of reference... each tribal culture is that ...a
culture of it's own and has to be taken that way.  I do think that it is more
a huge mistake (than it is insulting) to try and group folks into the
category of "Indians" or Native Americans.  One just loses too much info that
way. And is just incorrect (much like a co-worker who asked if I could
translate for an asian client who came into our office and, when asked his
cultural background and nationality, looked at me stuppidly and
said,"Asian...just asian". Did not give me much to go on when I went to speak
to him - not offending politically to me, just didn't tell me what language
he spoke!!)
-C.Kent

PS>By the way, I share your view @ the concerns of the politically
correct...I am not too old but maybe THEIR POLITICALLY CORRECT  ways offend
me..so let them practice what they preach and change so they do not offend
me!!!

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 25 Nov 2000 00:04:42 EST


In a message dated 11/24/0 09:29:21 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<The grasshopper analogy actually
puts it in a good frame of reference... each tribal culture is that ...a
culture of it's own and has to be taken that way.  I do think that it is more
a huge mistake (than it is insulting) to try and group folks into the
category of "Indians" or Native Americans.  One just loses too much info that
way. And is just incorrect>>

I really don't know what you are working on - I just told you my impression
of some Crow Indians whose friendship I really treasure.  Sounds like we a
leading to something like the obscure quote that says, "ALL Indians ALWAYS
walk single file . . . . and I KNOW because the one I saw was walking that
way".

Best wishes and good night
Richard James

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From: "Robert Thomson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan List: Orange Coat Buttons
Date: 25 Nov 2000 17:57:54

Ho the List!

Greetings all, I am wondering if anyone knows if anyone makes reproductions
of Orange Coat Buttons.  These buttons are listed in the 1835 Steamboat
Diana inventories, the 1837 Rocky Mountain Outfit inventories, and the 1851
Fort Union inventories (among others).  However, I can't even find an image
of one.  Any help on locating repros or images of originals would be
appreciated.

Thanks,
Robert

"Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union"
Charles Larpenteur, 1838

----
Robert Thomson
AMF Co
Fort Union

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From: "Ethan Sudman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition
Date: 25 Nov 2000 18:06:51 -0000

Does anyone know of any good books on the Louis and Clark expidition?

Thanks,
Ethan Sudman ([e-mail])
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From: "Robert Thomson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark expedition
Date: 25 Nov 2000 19:19:01

The best book on the Lewis & Clark expedition, in my humble opinion, is "Way
to the Western Sea" by David Lavender.  This book is out of print, but some
bookstores probaly still have some in stock.  A good narative and easy read
(though lacking in some technical aspects) is "Undaunted Courage" by Stephen
Ambrose.  "Only One Man Died" by E.G. Chuinard details the medical aspects
of the expedition and "Lewis and Clark among the Indians" by James Ronda
deals specifically with the expeditions interactions with the
Trans-Mississippi tribes.

Hope that helps!

Robert

"Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union"
Charles Larpenteur, 1838
----
Robert Thomson
AMF Co
Fort Union

----Original Message Follows----
Reply-To: [e-mail]

Does anyone know of any good books on the Louis and Clark expidition?

Thanks,
Ethan Sudman ([e-mail])



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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan List: Orange Coat Buttons
Date: 25 Nov 2000 19:20:10 -0600

Robert,

http://www.relicman.com/fedbutna.htm

Click on this site.  There are excellent photos of many buttons, =
including one described as a navy cuff button from the 1830's which is =
impressed on the back "warranted rich orange". =20

YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff


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From: "Robert Thomson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan List: Orange Coat Buttons
Date: 26 Nov 2000 04:24:25

Lanney,

Thanks much!  That was extremely helpful, now maybe we can find someone to
reproduce something similar to this.  I'm trying to find sources for the
last few remaining trade goods to restock Fort Union's trade shop and these
buttons have proved to be one of the more difficult items to track down.

Watch yer topknot!

Robert

"Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union"
Charles Larpenteur, 1838
----
Robert Thomson
AMF Co
Fort Union


----Original Message Follows----
Reply-To: [e-mail]

Robert,

http://www.relicman.com/fedbutna.htm

Click on this site.  There are excellent photos of many buttons, including
one described as a navy cuff button from the 1830's which is impressed on
the back "warranted rich orange".

YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Pulse??
Date: 26 Nov 2000 09:11:17 -0600

Ho the List
I am currently reading Astoria by Washington Irving and in it I came =
across a curious reference that sent me to the Noah Webster 1828 =
dictionary.  The book describes the overland journey of Wilson Price =
Hunt.......which was written by Irving, not from having been on the =
trip, but from having free access to John Jacob Astor's records.  Thus, =
none of the observations were personal but are those of  people who =
actually were with Hunt.  That said, there is a reference to crops being =
raised by a particular group of Indians that included, corn, pumpkins =
and "pulse".  I had not encountered "pulse" in reference to a crop and =
looked it up in the dictionary.  It's beans....see the various mentions =
from the dictionary below.
So, if a journal or diary you are reading someday refers to "pulse" you =
will know it refers to beans or other lugumes.
This information and about $4.50 will get you a cup of coffee at =
Starbucks.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

PULSE, n. [L. pulsus, beaten out, as seeds; Heb. a bean, to separate.]  =
Leguminous plants or their seeds; the plants whose pericarp is a legume =
or pod, as beans, peas, &c.

POUSSE, corrupted from pulse, peas.

LEGU'MEN, n.  [L. legumen, lego to collect, and signifying that which =
collects, or holds, or a collection.]
1.  In botany, a pericarp or seed-vessel, of two valves, in which the =
seeds are fixed to one suture only.  In the latter circumstance it =
differs from a siliqua, in which the seeds are attached to both sutures. =
 In popular use, a legume is called a pod, or a cod; as a pea-pod, or =
peas-cod.
2.  In the plural, pulse, peas, beans, &c.

LEGU'MINOUS, a.  Pertaining to pulse; consisting of pulse.  Leguminous =
plants are such as have a legume for a pericarp, as peas and beans.

BEAN, n.  A name given to several kinds of pulse, or leguminous seeds, =
and the plants producing them.  They belong to several genera, =
particularly Vicia, Phaseolus and Dolichos. The varieties most usually =
cultivated are, the horse bean, the mazagan, the kidney bean, the =
cranberry bean, the lima bean, the frost bean, &c.  The stalk is erect =
or climbing, and the fruit generally roundish, oval or flat,and of =
various colors.
=20



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
Date: 26 Nov 2000 11:26:13 -0600



On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 17:53:36 -0600 (CST) "Susan Gilbert"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:52:47 -0500, Addison Miller wrote:
>
> Hey... I ate dog when I was overseas... (Nam)... if fixed right...
> not too
> bad... *grins*  Puppy best...
>
> Ad Miller
> Alderson, WV
AD

thats like the rabbit thery serve that makes a meouing sound---

hawk
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pulse??
Date: 26 Nov 2000 13:28:34 EST

Thanks Lanney for the information on Pulse. Been looking for early references
to Beans being grown on the upper Missouri. Actually there was three tribes
growing them the Hidatsa, Mandan, and Aricara. We have found two verities of
beans that were grown. A red that is brighter than the red beans we see in
the stores today and a white shield that is a white bean with a pattern of a
shield on it. There may have been more but so far these are the only two
types that we have been able to find seeds for.
                                                     Crazy Cyot

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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sign Language
Date: 26 Nov 2000 14:08:53 -0000

he wrote:

>      Tomkins book on Indian Sign Language was written about 1890 and, as
far
>as I know,  did not go through the "filter" of J.D. Clark's book designed
for
>the military.

My reprint of the fifth (1931) edition of "indian sign language" by William
Tomkins says he was a boy fron 1884 to 1894.  I couldn't find the
publication date of the first edition.  In the introduction the author
chronicles the published works on ISL from 1823 to1918.

From this I assumed his work was published later than 1890.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner



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From: "Terrance Luff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: sign language
Date: 26 Nov 2000 13:12:18 -0700

   HO CAMP""
heres a little story on sign. i have been on all montana rez's and have
attended seminars on the plains hand sign language also read anything that i
could find . ran the family horses with different tribes of montana so i
considered my indian contact fairly close.
but for a bout two years i found myself going to the northern cheyenne res
for the first of month flea market they have.
someone had told me that the norther cheyenne still used alot of sign.
  no problme, i told myself i have classroom,and book and have used it
before.  Well---when you have a older cheyenne, that cannot or won't speak
english,  and they start signing and talking cheyenne ,whoa , the speed of
the hands,i could catch a few words. half way threw the first day and i want
to scalp me a few teacher that had clamed they were experts/ but as time
went by i didn't realize what a person picksup.after about six mounths i
visted n. cheyenne that had moved to western montana. We got to talking.
pretty soon they smiled and said i made them home sick with my talking and
useing sign sametime. just be carefull of just books untell your do real
life. it is good to see someone interested in the hand sign language.  Oh !
after all the rez poeple in montana, the ones that use the sigh the most is
by fare the northern cheyenne.  also they use cold steel alot.



                                 ponyrider
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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 26 Nov 2000 20:08:16 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0268_01C057E4.9D2547C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Elkflea,

I don't have any knowledge of anyone getting carbon monoxide poisoning =
from a fire in a tipi but we need to get our terms straight. CO (carbon =
monoxide) poisoning comes from a situation where incomplete combustion =
is taking place. That usually occurs with the burning of charcoal or the =
use of catalytic heaters (no open flame). As Dianne pointed out that can =
be from any incandescing material though I am not sure I agree with =
"glowing red rock" being a source. A charcoal stove, a Coleman Lantern, =
a gas fired catalytic heater all produce CO and must all be used in a =
well ventilated space. In the case of the burner of a catalytic stove =
like my little Coleman, the glow is coming from the gas being =
incandesced at the "mesh burner" surface which causes the metal to glow =
red hot. The metal is not giving off CO, the gas is the guilty party. =
It's a bit different if you heat a rock red hot. All it is doing is =
radiating stored energy in the form of visible light, until it cools =
enough to not glow any more at which point it is still radiating heat =
but below the visible spectrum. (use these big words and folks will =
think you know what your talking about <G>)

Open fires in a tipi are not a great producer of CO. They do produce CO2 =
(carbon dioxide) which can be dangerous in that it displaces O2 and thus =
reduces the available 02 for breathing. Usually what happens is that you =
get sleepy, quit feeding the fire, go to bed and the fire dies out. =
There are usually enough openings in a tipi, even a hide tipi to allow =
enough fresh 02 to enter to replace what is used up by your fire and =
your breathing. Same applies to a wood stove in a tent with a smoke =
stack out the roof. O2 is pulled into the stove to burn the wood or =
other fuel and any gases produced go up and out. A tipi is a bit like a =
combustible stove with you and the fire on the inside. The O2 is pulled =
in to burn the wood and any gases produced go out the smoke flaps. If =
you use a CO producer in a tent or tipi the CO is usually not carried to =
the outside very efficiently, it builds up and you die.

If you are using a CO producer like charcoal the CO builds up in your =
blood and keeps any available O2 from being carried around to your 2000 =
parts. Very deadly. At a certain blood concentration, the poisoning can =
not easily be reversed and you die. Hope that clarifies things a bit. I =
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Buck Conner=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 7:39 AM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves


  [e-mail] wrote:=20
        Greetings:=20
        The recent discussion of the potential for carbon monoxide =
poisoning from=20
    combustive heating/open fires or stoves within shelters has raised =
my=20
    curiosity.  Does anyone know of any situations where aboriginal =
americans or=20
    those of a more contempory period have died as a result of =
asphixiation from=20
    carbonmonoxide poisoning in a Tipi?   It seems such would be =
unlikely due to=20
    the ventilation drafts entering from the bottom of the outside liner =
which=20
    ascend between the inside and outside liner in the 'pole' space then =

    refurnish  02  to the fire and vent up and out through the flap =
area....   I=20
    am a new to this and request comments words from those of you who =
are more=20
    experienced.  Thanks  elkflea=20

    ----------------------=20
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  The problem is many put the outside cover down on the ground and don't =
use a liner, thus not venting as you referred to. This is where the =
problem starts, smoky to start with - then it goes down hill.=20
   =20
  Later,=20

  Buck Conner=20
  Resource & Documentation for:=20
  ________________________________________=20
  HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT=20
  ___________________________________HRD__=20
  Visit these sites at:=20
  http://pages.about.com/buckconner/=20
  http://pages.about.com/conner1/=20
  http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/=20
  __________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___=20
   =20


------=_NextPart_000_0268_01C057E4.9D2547C0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4207.2601" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Elkflea,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I don't have any knowledge of anyone getting carbon =
monoxide=20
poisoning from a fire in a tipi but we need to get our terms straight. =
CO=20
(carbon monoxide) poisoning comes from a situation where incomplete =
combustion=20
is taking place. That usually occurs with the burning of charcoal or the =
use of=20
catalytic heaters (no open flame). As Dianne pointed out that can be =
from any=20
incandescing material though I am not sure I agree with "glowing red =
rock" being=20
a source. A charcoal stove, a Coleman Lantern, a gas fired catalytic =
heater all=20
produce CO and must all be used in a well ventilated space. In the case =
of the=20
burner of a catalytic stove like my little Coleman, the glow is coming =
from the=20
gas being incandesced at the "mesh burner" surface which causes the =
metal to=20
glow red hot. The metal is not giving off CO, the gas is the guilty=20
party. It's a bit different if you heat a rock red hot. All it =
is=20
doing is radiating stored energy in the form of visible light, until it =
cools=20
enough to not glow any more at which point it is still radiating heat =
but below=20
the visible spectrum. (use these big words and folks will think you know =
what=20
your talking about <G>)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Open fires in a tipi are not a great producer of CO. =
They do=20
produce CO2 (carbon dioxide) which can be dangerous in that it displaces =
O2 and=20
thus reduces the available 02 for breathing. Usually what happens is =
that you=20
get sleepy, quit feeding the fire, go to bed and the fire dies out. =
There are=20
usually enough openings in a tipi, even a hide tipi to allow enough =
fresh 02 to=20
enter to replace what is used up by your fire and your breathing. Same =
applies=20
to a wood stove in a tent with a smoke stack out the roof. O2 is pulled =
into the=20
stove to burn the wood or other fuel and any gases produced go up and =
out. A=20
tipi is a bit like a combustible stove with you and the fire on the =
inside. The=20
O2 is pulled in to burn the wood and any gases produced go out the smoke =
flaps.=20
If you use a CO producer in a tent or tipi the CO is usually not carried =
to the=20
outside very efficiently, it builds up and you die.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If you are using a CO producer like charcoal the CO =
builds up=20
in your blood and keeps any available O2 from being carried around to =
your 2000=20
parts. Very deadly. At a certain blood concentration, the poisoning can =
not=20
easily be reversed and you die. Hope that clarifies things a bit. I=20
remain.....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Buck =
Conner</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 20, 2000 =
7:39=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Shaker =

  stoves</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">    Greetings:=20
    <P>    The recent discussion of the potential for =
carbon=20
    monoxide poisoning from <BR>combustive heating/open fires or stoves =
within=20
    shelters has raised my <BR>curiosity.  Does anyone know of any=20
    situations where aboriginal americans or <BR>those of a more =
contempory=20
    period have died as a result of asphixiation from <BR>carbonmonoxide =

    poisoning in a Tipi?   It seems such would be unlikely due =
to=20
    <BR>the ventilation drafts entering from the bottom of the outside =
liner=20
    which <BR>ascend between the inside and outside liner in the 'pole' =
space=20
    then <BR>refurnish  02  to the fire and vent up and out =
through=20
    the flap area....   I <BR>am a new to this and request =
comments=20
    words from those of you who are more <BR>experienced.  =
Thanks =20
    elkflea=20
    <P>---------------------- <BR>hist_text list info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <P><BR>The problem is many put the outside cover down on the ground =
and don't=20
  use a liner, thus not venting as you referred to. This is where the =
problem=20
  starts, smoky to start with - then it goes down hill. <BR>  =
<BR>Later,=20
  <P>Buck Conner <BR>Resource & Documentation for:=20
  <BR>________________________________________ <BR>HISTORICAL RESEARCH =
&=20
  DEVELOPMENT <BR>___________________________________HRD__ <BR>Visit =
these sites=20
  at: <BR><U><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckco=
nner/</A></U>=20
  <BR><U><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://pages.about.com/conner1/">http://pages.about.com/conner1/<=
/A></U>=20
  <BR><U><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/">http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/<=
/A></U>=20
  <BR>__________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___ <BR> =20
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hunt'n & Stuff
Date: 26 Nov 2000 20:23:55 -0800

Yo Captain Lahti.....

I see your back by the email traffic..... how'd Idaho treat you on the
elk trip?

Regards

Lee Newbill



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 26 Nov 2000 22:53:43 -0600

Captain,

You might want to caution folks to choose the rocks they heat (or use to
ring a fire) with care.  Those containing moisture have a tendency to
explode with great violence when heated sufficiently; which is lots more
exciting (at least momentarily) than quietly dying in your sleep.  If we
are doing this the traditional way there is little CO danger.

A hot rock at the foot of your bed can make a night more comfortable,
or?  A heated earth bed can make surviving a long cold night with 1 or no
blanket possible.  A candle or two can provide heat in a snow cave.

John...


At 08:08 PM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Elkflea,
>
>I don't have any knowledge of anyone getting carbon monoxide poisoning
>from a fire in It's a bit different if you heat a rock red hot. All it is
>doing is radiating stored energy in the form of visible light, until it
>cools enough to not glow any more at which point it is still radiating
>heat but below the visible spectrum.

"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every
government on Earth... and what no just government should
refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sign Language
Date: 27 Nov 2000 00:19:22 EST


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Hi!

     In my copy of William Tomkins book Indian Sign Language on page 3 there
is a picture of somebody on horseback.  The caption under the picture says
"The author and "BLAZE"  in 1890."

     It is hard to tell but from the picture it appears that he is older than
a boy.

     Tom Orr



> Subj: Re: MtMan-List: Sign Language
> Date: 11/26/2000 12:12:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
> From:    [e-mail] (Glenn Darilek)
> Sender:    [e-mail]
> Reply-to:    [e-mail]
> To:    [e-mail]
>
>
>
>
> he wrote:
>
> >      Tomkins book on Indian Sign Language was written about 1890 and, as
> far
> >as I know,  did not go through the "filter" of J.D. Clark's book designed
> for
> >the military.
>
> My reprint of the fifth (1931) edition of "indian sign language" by William
> Tomkins says he was a boy fron 1884 to 1894.  I couldn't find the
> publication date of the first edition.  In the introduction the author
> chronicles the published works on ISL from 1823 to1918.
>
> From this I assumed his work was published later than 1890.
>
> Glenn Darilek
> Iron Burner
>
>
>
>

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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=2>Hi!
<BR>
<BR>     In my copy of William Tomkins book Indian Sign Language on page 3 there <BR>is a picture of somebody on horseback.  The caption under the picture says <BR>"The author and "BLAZE"  in 1890."
<BR>
<BR>     It is hard to tell but from the picture it appears that he is older than <BR>a boy.
<BR>
<BR>     Tom Orr
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Subj: <B>Re: MtMan-List: Sign Language</B>
<BR>Date: 11/26/2000 12:12:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
<BR><I>From:    [e-mail] (Glenn Darilek)
<BR>Sender:    [e-mail]
<BR>Reply-to:    [e-mail]
<BR>To:    [e-mail]
<BR></I>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>he wrote:
<BR>
<BR>>      Tomkins book on Indian Sign Language was written about 1890 and, as
<BR>far
<BR>>as I know,  did not go through the "filter" of J.D. Clark's book designed
<BR>for
<BR>>the military.
<BR>
<BR>My reprint of the fifth (1931) edition of "indian sign language" by William
<BR>Tomkins says he was a boy fron 1884 to 1894.  I couldn't find the
<BR>publication date of the first edition.  In the introduction the author
<BR>chronicles the published works on ISL from 1823 to1918.
<BR>
<BR>From this I assumed his work was published later than 1890.
<BR>
<BR>Glenn Darilek
<BR>Iron Burner
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_b3.3acfcd1.275348da_boundary--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sign Language
Date: 27 Nov 2000 07:14:24 EST

Tom you said
Tomkins book on Indian Sign Language was written about 1890 and, as
> far
> >as I know,  did not go through the "filter" of J.D. Clark's book designed
> for
> >the military.
actually I think it was some more around  1920s for on page 40 it has the
sign for motor car or automobile which probably was not a sign in use by
Indians until then.  In most of the pictures Tomkins is much older then he is
in that picture on page three. Tompkins book was written for use by Boy
Scouts so it has been filtered even more and is not as complete as Clark's
book which is the better of the two books.
                                     Crazy Cyot

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 27 Nov 2000 07:22:48 -0700

John,
Volcanic rocks work great, you can use them dry for hear or add water for a
bath.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
>Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000, 9:53 PM
>

>Captain,
>
>You might want to caution folks to choose the rocks they heat (or use to
>ring a fire) with care.  Those containing moisture have a tendency to
>explode with great violence when heated sufficiently; which is lots more
>exciting (at least momentarily) than quietly dying in your sleep.  If we
>are doing this the traditional way there is little CO danger.
>
>A hot rock at the foot of your bed can make a night more comfortable,
>or?  A heated earth bed can make surviving a long cold night with 1 or no
>blanket possible.  A candle or two can provide heat in a snow cave.
>
>John...
>
>
>At 08:08 PM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
>>Elkflea,
>>
>>I don't have any knowledge of anyone getting carbon monoxide poisoning
>>from a fire in It's a bit different if you heat a rock red hot. All it is
>>doing is radiating stored energy in the form of visible light, until it
>>cools enough to not glow any more at which point it is still radiating
>>heat but below the visible spectrum.
>
>"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every
>government on Earth... and what no just government should
>refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
Date: 27 Nov 2000 07:28:42 -0700

Sorry, "Heat"
----------
>From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
>Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000, 7:22 AM
>

>John,
>Volcanic rocks work great, you can use them dry for hear or add water for a
>bath.
>YMOS
>Ole # 718
>----------
>>From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail]
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
>>Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000, 9:53 PM
>>
>
>>Captain,
>>
>>You might want to caution folks to choose the rocks they heat (or use to
>>ring a fire) with care.  Those containing moisture have a tendency to
>>explode with great violence when heated sufficiently; which is lots more
>>exciting (at least momentarily) than quietly dying in your sleep.  If we
>>are doing this the traditional way there is little CO danger.
>>
>>A hot rock at the foot of your bed can make a night more comfortable,
>>or?  A heated earth bed can make surviving a long cold night with 1 or no
>>blanket possible.  A candle or two can provide heat in a snow cave.
>>
>>John...
>>
>>
>>At 08:08 PM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
>>>Elkflea,
>>>
>>>I don't have any knowledge of anyone getting carbon monoxide poisoning
>>>from a fire in It's a bit different if you heat a rock red hot. All it is
>>>doing is radiating stored energy in the form of visible light, until it
>>>cools enough to not glow any more at which point it is still radiating
>>>heat but below the visible spectrum.
>>
>>"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every
>>government on Earth... and what no just government should
>>refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sign Language
Date: 27 Nov 2000 09:43:37 EST


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Hi!

     That makes sense.  I agree that Tomkins' book was probabaly written
later than 1890.    Clark's book, while better written and provides more in
depth information, unfortunately does not have  any illustrations and makes
it more difficult to understand.

     My Scouts, however, have picked up a few of the "adult" words from
Clark's book and do not hesitate to use them when speaking Indian Sign to
each other.

     Tom Orr



>
> Tom you said
> Tomkins book on Indian Sign Language was written about 1890 and, as
> > far
> > >as I know,  did not go through the "filter" of J.D. Clark's book designed
> > for
> > >the military.
> actually I think it was some more around  1920s for on page 40 it has the
> sign for motor car or automobile which probably was not a sign in use by
> Indians until then.  In most of the pictures Tomkins is much older then he
> is
> in that picture on page three. Tompkins book was written for use by Boy
> Scouts so it has been filtered even more and is not as complete as Clark's
> book which is the better of the two books.
>                                      Crazy Cyot
>
>

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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=2><I>
<BR></I>
<BR>Hi!</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>     That makes sense.  I agree that Tomkins' book was probabaly written <BR>later than 1890.    Clark's book, while better written and provides more in <BR>depth information, unfortunately does not have  any illustrations and makes <BR>it more difficult to understand.
<BR>
<BR>     My Scouts, however, have picked up a few of the "adult" words from <BR>Clark's book and do not hesitate to use them when speaking Indian Sign to <BR>each other.
<BR>
<BR>     Tom Orr
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>Tom you said
<BR>Tomkins book on Indian Sign Language was written about 1890 and, as
<BR>> far
<BR>> >as I know,  did not go through the "filter" of J.D. Clark's book designed
<BR>> for
<BR>> >the military.
<BR>actually I think it was some more around  1920s for on page 40 it has the
<BR>sign for motor car or automobile which probably was not a sign in use by
<BR>Indians until then.  In most of the pictures Tomkins is much older then he <BR>is
<BR>in that picture on page three. Tompkins book was written for use by Boy
<BR>Scouts so it has been filtered even more and is not as complete as Clark's
<BR>book which is the better of the two books.
<BR>                                     Crazy Cyot
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andy Cheung" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 27 Nov 2000 10:46:35 -0600

There was a somewhat controversial thread on these pages a few months back
about William Drummond Stewart taking porter beer to the west.  I cited
"Across the Wide Missouri" by Bernard deVoto as saying Strewart had porter.
DeVoto was criticized on this list for not being accurate.

I found deVoto's source.  It is from Alfred Jacob Miller's notes on his
drawing "Free Trappers in trouble."  I found it in Marvin C. Ross "The West
of Alfred Jacob Miller."  It reads:

"In consideration of their weak state, a soup was first prepared for them,
which they ate with a will.  This was followed by some bottled porter - and
then came the substatnials in the shape of hump ribs &c."

The site where they found the destitute trappers near Independence Rock in
present day Wyoming, which is most of the way to the site if the 1837
rendezvous.

Porter is a strong black ale typical of the period beers.  Stout is a
variety of porter beer.

So I propose another verse for the song "Whiskey your'e the Devil"

I will not refuse whiskey,
Or rye or aged old brandy.
But something I won't do without
Is a foamy pint of Irish stout
O love fare the well.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner




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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 27 Nov 2000 11:13:12 -0800

I suppose now there will be a rash of Stewart re-enactors at rendezvous
washing down their tinned sardines with porter ale, dining on a rubberized
tarp and shooting game with a matched set of percussion English rifles.
Waugh! I thought we left civilization East of the Mississippi!

Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 8:46 AM


> There was a somewhat controversial thread on these pages a few months back
> about William Drummond Stewart taking porter beer to the west.  I cited
> "Across the Wide Missouri" by Bernard deVoto as saying Strewart had
porter.
> DeVoto was criticized on this list for not being accurate.
>
> I found deVoto's source.  It is from Alfred Jacob Miller's notes on his
> drawing "Free Trappers in trouble."  I found it in Marvin C. Ross "The
West
> of Alfred Jacob Miller."  It reads:
>
> "In consideration of their weak state, a soup was first prepared for them,
> which they ate with a will.  This was followed by some bottled porter -
and
> then came the substatnials in the shape of hump ribs &c."
>
> The site where they found the destitute trappers near Independence Rock in
> present day Wyoming, which is most of the way to the site if the 1837
> rendezvous.
>
> Porter is a strong black ale typical of the period beers.  Stout is a
> variety of porter beer.
>
> So I propose another verse for the song "Whiskey your'e the Devil"
>
> I will not refuse whiskey,
> Or rye or aged old brandy.
> But something I won't do without
> Is a foamy pint of Irish stout
> O love fare the well.
>
> Glenn Darilek
> Iron Burner
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 27 Nov 2000 12:17:53 -0700

Larry,
Aparently not, ha ha
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
>Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000, 12:13 PM
>

>I suppose now there will be a rash of Stewart re-enactors at rendezvous
>washing down their tinned sardines with porter ale, dining on a rubberized
>tarp and shooting game with a matched set of percussion English rifles.
>Waugh! I thought we left civilization East of the Mississippi!
>
>Larry Huber
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Andy Cheung <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 8:46 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Beer
>
>
>> There was a somewhat controversial thread on these pages a few months back
>> about William Drummond Stewart taking porter beer to the west.  I cited
>> "Across the Wide Missouri" by Bernard deVoto as saying Strewart had
>porter.
>> DeVoto was criticized on this list for not being accurate.
>>
>> I found deVoto's source.  It is from Alfred Jacob Miller's notes on his
>> drawing "Free Trappers in trouble."  I found it in Marvin C. Ross "The
>West
>> of Alfred Jacob Miller."  It reads:
>>
>> "In consideration of their weak state, a soup was first prepared for them,
>> which they ate with a will.  This was followed by some bottled porter -
>and
>> then came the substatnials in the shape of hump ribs &c."
>>
>> The site where they found the destitute trappers near Independence Rock in
>> present day Wyoming, which is most of the way to the site if the 1837
>> rendezvous.
>>
>> Porter is a strong black ale typical of the period beers.  Stout is a
>> variety of porter beer.
>>
>> So I propose another verse for the song "Whiskey your'e the Devil"
>>
>> I will not refuse whiskey,
>> Or rye or aged old brandy.
>> But something I won't do without
>> Is a foamy pint of Irish stout
>> O love fare the well.
>>
>> Glenn Darilek
>> Iron Burner
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 27 Nov 2000 12:22:47 -0700

Larry,
If you were to drink correctly I would think watered down everclear would be
most correct, Rum would also be correct.
Cigarets would be wrong.
When did the "Mucket" become period?
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
>Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000, 12:13 PM
>

>I suppose now there will be a rash of Stewart re-enactors at rendezvous
>washing down their tinned sardines with porter ale, dining on a rubberized
>tarp and shooting game with a matched set of percussion English rifles.
>Waugh! I thought we left civilization East of the Mississippi!
>
>Larry Huber
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Andy Cheung <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 8:46 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Beer
>
>
>> There was a somewhat controversial thread on these pages a few months back
>> about William Drummond Stewart taking porter beer to the west.  I cited
>> "Across the Wide Missouri" by Bernard deVoto as saying Strewart had
>porter.
>> DeVoto was criticized on this list for not being accurate.
>>
>> I found deVoto's source.  It is from Alfred Jacob Miller's notes on his
>> drawing "Free Trappers in trouble."  I found it in Marvin C. Ross "The
>West
>> of Alfred Jacob Miller."  It reads:
>>
>> "In consideration of their weak state, a soup was first prepared for them,
>> which they ate with a will.  This was followed by some bottled porter -
>and
>> then came the substatnials in the shape of hump ribs &c."
>>
>> The site where they found the destitute trappers near Independence Rock in
>> present day Wyoming, which is most of the way to the site if the 1837
>> rendezvous.
>>
>> Porter is a strong black ale typical of the period beers.  Stout is a
>> variety of porter beer.
>>
>> So I propose another verse for the song "Whiskey your'e the Devil"
>>
>> I will not refuse whiskey,
>> Or rye or aged old brandy.
>> But something I won't do without
>> Is a foamy pint of Irish stout
>> O love fare the well.
>>
>> Glenn Darilek
>> Iron Burner
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hot rocks/shaker stoves
Date: 27 Nov 2000 12:09:59 -0800

John,

Good point on the exploding rock trick. Off the top I am not sure which
rocks to choose and which to reject but out west Lava Rock in it's many
forms is a good choice. Granite less so and rocks from stream beds are even
more likely to shatter explosively when heated. We like lava rock for
placing around the sauna stove. Don't explode when you pour on the water for
steam.

One thing to remember (as some in my Party have found to their dismay) is
not to heat a warming rock too hot. They can be hot enough to burn a hole in
your blankets. It is also best to wrap a heating rock in extra cloth to help
prevent same. I have never had to resort to a warming rock to keep warm at
night. Though I have picked large shards as a back stop for my fire to
reflect a bit of heat my way.

Capt. Lahti'
Back from another unsuccessful elk hunt <G>


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 8:53 PM


> Captain,
>
> You might want to caution folks to choose the rocks they heat (or use to
> ring a fire) with care.  Those containing moisture have a tendency to
> explode with great violence when heated sufficiently; which is lots more
> exciting (at least momentarily) than quietly dying in your sleep.  If we
> are doing this the traditional way there is little CO danger.
>
> A hot rock at the foot of your bed can make a night more comfortable,
> or?  A heated earth bed can make surviving a long cold night with 1 or no
> blanket possible.  A candle or two can provide heat in a snow cave.
>
> John...
>
>
> At 08:08 PM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
> >Elkflea,
> >
> >I don't have any knowledge of anyone getting carbon monoxide poisoning
> >from a fire in It's a bit different if you heat a rock red hot. All it is
> >doing is radiating stored energy in the form of visible light, until it
> >cools enough to not glow any more at which point it is still radiating
> >heat but below the visible spectrum.
>
> "A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every
> government on Earth... and what no just government should
> refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hunt'n & Stuff
Date: 27 Nov 2000 12:32:50 -0800

Young master Lee,

Alas no luck. Louie got a big cow opening morning with his .62 swivel barrel
flinter at 143 paces, one shot through the lights. Crawdad, Gary C from SD
and myself came up empty handed. Many hunters in the woods and not all that
many elk. We did see quit a few moose. I had one come out just after first
light one morning while I was on stand (where I got my elk last year) and
walk up to a stump and proceed to do a dance to the stump. Great show and
funniest thing I have ever seen. Wish I hadn't squeaked my boot in the snow
and distracted her. She was never really scared of me standing there at
about 50 yd. just curious. At one point I thought she would walk up to me so
she could identify me for sure. I finally walked around her to continue my
hunt down the meadow.

Anyway we had a good week in the woods. I'm trying to recover enough to go
after a whitetail up around the Palouse before it closes. Read your hunt
story. Great just to be out with the critters.

Capt. Lahti'

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 8:23 PM


> Yo Captain Lahti.....
>
> I see your back by the email traffic..... how'd Idaho treat you on the
> elk trip?
>
> Regards
>
> Lee Newbill
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 27 Nov 2000 16:49:05 -0800

Larry,
Yep, BY DAMN !  IF THEY'D A HAD IT ?  THEY'D A USED IT ! ! !
Pendleton


I suppose now there will be a rash of Stewart re-enactors at rendezvous
washing down their tinned sardines with porter ale, dining on a rubberized
tarp and shooting game with a matched set of percussion English rifles.
Waugh! I thought we left civilization East of the Mississippi!

Larry Huber



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From: Jim Lockmiller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 27 Nov 2000 18:44:57 -0500

I think it would be better that all that Budweiser that I see drank at rondys.
Manbear

Larry Huber wrote:

> I suppose now there will be a rash of Stewart re-enactors at rendezvous
> washing down their tinned sardines with porter ale, dining on a rubberized
> tarp and shooting game with a matched set of percussion English rifles.
> Waugh! I thought we left civilization East of the Mississippi!
>
> Larry Huber
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 27 Nov 2000 16:30:01 -0800

Ole,
    I've seen pictures and samples of muckets used during the Civil War,
mostly by the Federal troops and mostly later in the war.  A mucket is just
a large cup with a bail and hinged lid attached.  I have a small copper cup
with a wire handle attached. It also has a separate cover.  I rigged a bail
on it by wrapping copper wire around it.  That's my "mucket" and also the
most common kind surviving Civil War example.

Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 11:22 AM


> Larry,
> If you were to drink correctly I would think watered down everclear would
be
> most correct, Rum would also be correct.
> Cigarets would be wrong.
> When did the "Mucket" become period?
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
> >Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000, 12:13 PM
> >
>
> >I suppose now there will be a rash of Stewart re-enactors at rendezvous
> >washing down their tinned sardines with porter ale, dining on a
rubberized
> >tarp and shooting game with a matched set of percussion English rifles.
> >Waugh! I thought we left civilization East of the Mississippi!
> >
> >Larry Huber
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Andy Cheung <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 8:46 AM
> >Subject: MtMan-List: Beer
> >
> >
> >> There was a somewhat controversial thread on these pages a few months
back
> >> about William Drummond Stewart taking porter beer to the west.  I cited
> >> "Across the Wide Missouri" by Bernard deVoto as saying Strewart had
> >porter.
> >> DeVoto was criticized on this list for not being accurate.
> >>
> >> I found deVoto's source.  It is from Alfred Jacob Miller's notes on his
> >> drawing "Free Trappers in trouble."  I found it in Marvin C. Ross "The
> >West
> >> of Alfred Jacob Miller."  It reads:
> >>
> >> "In consideration of their weak state, a soup was first prepared for
them,
> >> which they ate with a will.  This was followed by some bottled porter -
> >and
> >> then came the substatnials in the shape of hump ribs &c."
> >>
> >> The site where they found the destitute trappers near Independence Rock
in
> >> present day Wyoming, which is most of the way to the site if the 1837
> >> rendezvous.
> >>
> >> Porter is a strong black ale typical of the period beers.  Stout is a
> >> variety of porter beer.
> >>
> >> So I propose another verse for the song "Whiskey your'e the Devil"
> >>
> >> I will not refuse whiskey,
> >> Or rye or aged old brandy.
> >> But something I won't do without
> >> Is a foamy pint of Irish stout
> >> O love fare the well.
> >>
> >> Glenn Darilek
> >> Iron Burner
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: beer and other" technically period correct" items
Date: 27 Nov 2000 18:04:57 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C0589C.8D787C80
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think items such as the porter beer and tinned sardines or fancy =
european percussion sporting rifles would be quite correct, if one were =
portraying a member of stewart's 1837 expedition. but it would not be =
right for an ashley man, or anybody else for that matter in the pre 1840 =
west.
Tom

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C0589C.8D787C80
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think items such as the porter beer =
and tinned=20
sardines or fancy european percussion sporting rifles would be quite =
correct, if=20
one were portraying a member of stewart's 1837 expedition. but it =
would not=20
be right for an ashley man, or anybody else for that matter in the pre =
1840=20
west.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C0589C.8D787C80--


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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves & Hot rocks
Date: 28 Nov 2000 07:43:59 -0600

John wrote "choose the rocks they heat (or use to ring a fire) with care.
Those containing moisture have a tendency to explode with great violence
when heated sufficiently; which is lots more exciting ..."

I'm still laughing!!!

Been doing Inipi Ceremony (sweat lodge) up here with my Anishinabi brothers
and sisters for more than a decade. My Brother the Bear was firekeeper for
our camp for years and the Bear taught me a lot about the Anishinabi ways,
especially about the Sacred Fires. His wife, Turtle Woman, the Bear, and me
were usually the ones to go for the Grandfathers (Rocks), make the wood
ready, set the fire, do the prayers, and light the fire before the "lazy
ones" showed up to ceremony. Learned all about selecting the Grandfathers
properly.

One day up at camp we was having our weekly Inipi Ceremony and the fire had
been lit. It was dead of winter, so we made them fires extra big to keep
everybody warm (gets down to 30 below up here - not the best for running
around in your nightgown in the bush!) Some young fellas had helped get
things going and I guess one of the young fellas had handed a rock to the
Bear what didn't come out of the pile of Grandfathers and the Bear didn't
notice.

It is early evening, bitterly cold, the fire was blazing 15, 20 feet high,
we are all sitting around the fire on logs and yacking when there was a
BOOM!!! that sounded like dynamite - everybody hit the ground as if we was
all spooked war Vets, and the blast laid the fire open like a daisy. There
was 4 foot logs 8 feet from the fire pit! Sure gets your attention!

Same firekeeper, the Bear, was keeping fire for four very respected native
elder out in the Rockies a few years before (names will not be given). He
told me that, in what he had been taught, there were 4 doorways in the Inipi
lodge. I think he said it was second round when he had passed in a few more
grandfathers and the door had just been closed when there was a KABOOM! in
the lodge. Bear said he now understood that there WERE four doors in the
lodge - he said an elder came scurrying out under the canvas in each of the
four directions - a Grandfather exploded when the water hit it.

Watch them Grandfathers! They aren't always in a good mood!

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 28 Nov 2000 09:35:50 -0600

I think the commonly seen mucket (like I have in my camp box) dates to =
the civil war.    A copper boiler probably goes back farther, but the =
tin jobbies, with a bail, and attached lid are Civil War so I was told.  =
 Served me well, but now that I'm trying to get as authentic as I can, =
it sits on a shelf.   I'm scrimping to get me a copper boiler to wrap in =
my blanket.   Been told I better not buy anything before Christmas =
however, or risk getting scalped by SheWhoMustBeObeyed.
>=20
> Larry,
> If you were to drink correctly I would think watered down=20
> everclear would be
> most correct, Rum would also be correct.=20
> Cigarets would be wrong.
> When did the "Mucket" become period?
> YMOS

Rum most certainly.   Rev. War soldiers were issued a daily rum ration, =
as were the lads with Lewis & Clark.
What about corn whiskey or bourbon?  When were those introduced?  Honest =
question, as I don't know, and those are my personal poisons of choice.


Todd (Who's looking forward to the new century.  Just think!  In a few =
days, it will be the 19th century.   Huz ZAH!) =3D)


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dancing 1651 - 1728
Date: 28 Nov 2000 10:34:36 -0600

Thought some might be interested in this website of old dances.



http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gary A. Bell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 28 Nov 2000 09:19:59 -0800




>
> Rum most certainly.   Rev. War soldiers were issued a daily rum ration, as were the lads with Lewis & Clark.
> What about corn whiskey or bourbon?  When were those introduced?  Honest question, as I don't know, and those are my personal poisons of choice.

Recall hearing of the Whiskey Rebellion?  No sooner had our new nation settled itself after the Revolution, but a bunch of cranky farmers objected to this new fangled Congress taxing their corn liquor.  Farmers were used to 'adding value' to their corn crop by converting it to bourbon.  Easier to store as well as trade.  Federals had to put it down with troops.  The Rebellion that is, although the troops probably put down a lot of the liquor too.

Alcoholic beverage was a significant part of our society from long before the first white folks came to this continent, both in naturally fermented forms like wines, meads and various beers, and in distilled forms, brandy, whiskey, and others.

As a brewer of fine and fancy ales, and one who will admit to 'adding value' to a number of interesting things in the past (what is the statute of limitations on moonshinin' anyway, that's exactly how long ago I did that!) I can tell ya that making ale or beer of any sort takes lots of experience, which was not generally shared (kept more like family secret recipes) and lots of equipment not found in the average mountain man's kit.  Forget distilling in the West too for the same
reasons.  That leaves the trade lists with which we are already familiar.

Brewers everywhere are aware of recipes for George Washington's small beer, for Spruce Beer (spruce oil used before hops became popular), and all sorts of other interesting (as opposed to 'tasty') brews.  I doubt that much of that sort of thing came west to the rendezvous because of the bulk however, which favors the distilled liquors as trade goods.  My readings indicate that they enjoyed a certain popularity.   I expect also that most of that moved west in barrels, does anybody
have historical data on trappers carrying bottles or jugs of this stuff themselves?  Seems a risky thing for them to do.

Does anybody have more specific information about which distilled materials were included in the trade shipments?  I'll check around for earliest breweries in the West, but I despair of finding anything very close to the fur trade era because of the infrastructure needed -- good water, manufactured goods, like tanks, barrels and such.   The east clearly dominated that until the west was developed enough to support such industry.  Probably some early home brewing and wine making,
but boy howdy that will be hard to track down.

How about anyone with Native American fermented beverage information?  I am guessing that they will be even harder to find, consistent with the fabled impact that white man's fire water had on the native folk.  Anybody know of native brews?  Other continents have native fermented drinks, although they seem to be mostly sub tropical or warmer.

Anyway, the impression I have of the trapper is that he 'enjoyed' a life of abstinence (from liquor that is) until the traders showed up, then he very much enjoyed the opposite.

Heron,
proud member of the Oregon Brew Crew too!


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dancing 1651 - 1728
Date: 28 Nov 2000 12:36:36 EST


In a message dated 11/28/0 09:35:35 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/
>>

This is an interesting piece of research - and I am not even a dancer.  On
this theme, do you have any references for music of the time?

Richard James
[e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Brain tanned substitute
Date: 28 Nov 2000 12:55:31 -0600

Howdy Camp!

Been busy reading the Buckskinning set and I got a few questions for the
group.....

1) Everybody talks about "brain tanned" deer hide. Is there a commercial
tanning process that leaves the same colour and texture as brain tanning?
I.e. what can I ask for at the commercial tannery (not retailer) that will
pass for brain tanned? (There are lots of Whitetail out here - could clothe
the whole camp with what wanders thru my yard in one winter - but the
government takes a dim view of helping yourself. On the other hand, a lot of
those hides taken by the hunters end up in a local tannery.)

2) In all the pictures I have seen, I don't see anybody wearing ear plugs or
eye protection when shooting. Is this a "man-thing"? or is it just for the
pictures? I can understand not protecting your eyes and ear when hunting
but, on the range??

Fireproof britches on about the "man-thing - comments appreciated !!


Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain tanned substitute
Date: 28 Nov 2000 14:33:20 -0500

> 2) In all the pictures I have seen, I don't see anybody wearing ear plugs
or
> eye protection when shooting. Is this a "man-thing"? or is it just for the
> pictures? I can understand not protecting your eyes and ear when hunting
> but, on the range??

Hopefully, Dianne, it's just for pictures.  As a certified RSO and BP
Instructor, I make hearing and eye protection mandatory on the ranges where
I officiate. I admit, when hunting, I do not wear hearing and eye protection
due to the fact that it severely cuts down on hearing noises around you, and
the yellow glasses hamper my side vision.

Ad Miller
Alderson WV


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 28 Nov 2000 15:45:30 EST

Larry,

Re-enactors won't have to portray Stewart in order to justify bringing porter
to rendezvous.  Folks bring potatoes or eggs, saying "I stopped off at the
Fort and picked these up."  They could just say, "I ran into this English
fellow and traded for some of this."  That would be better than seeing a
bunch of Stewart-types.

Jim Hardee, AMM #1676

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 28 Nov 2000 13:22:12 -0800

Gary,
    It was illegal to sell alcohol to the natives and shipping it was
forbidden.  Mackenzie at Fort Union thought he solved that problem by
building a still at the fort.  That way he wasn't importing spirits.  Wyeth
was shown this unique industry on his way back East.  Apparently, he told
the wrong people because shortly thereafter the government destroyed the
still and Mackenzie found himself out of a job.  So, distilling in the West
has an early if dubious history.  Perhaps our Ranger at Fort Union, on this
list, can share some information on this.

Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 9:19 AM


>
>
>
> >
> > Rum most certainly.   Rev. War soldiers were issued a daily rum ration,
as were the lads with Lewis & Clark.
> > What about corn whiskey or bourbon?  When were those introduced?  Honest
question, as I don't know, and those are my personal poisons of choice.
>
> Recall hearing of the Whiskey Rebellion?  No sooner had our new nation
settled itself after the Revolution, but a bunch of cranky farmers objected
to this new fangled Congress taxing their corn liquor.  Farmers were used to
'adding value' to their corn crop by converting it to bourbon.  Easier to
store as well as trade.  Federals had to put it down with troops.  The
Rebellion that is, although the troops probably put down a lot of the liquor
too.
>
> Alcoholic beverage was a significant part of our society from long before
the first white folks came to this continent, both in naturally fermented
forms like wines, meads and various beers, and in distilled forms, brandy,
whiskey, and others.
>
> As a brewer of fine and fancy ales, and one who will admit to 'adding
value' to a number of interesting things in the past (what is the statute of
limitations on moonshinin' anyway, that's exactly how long ago I did that!)
I can tell ya that making ale or beer of any sort takes lots of experience,
which was not generally shared (kept more like family secret recipes) and
lots of equipment not found in the average mountain man's kit.  Forget
distilling in the West too for the same
> reasons.  That leaves the trade lists with which we are already familiar.
>
> Brewers everywhere are aware of recipes for George Washington's small
beer, for Spruce Beer (spruce oil used before hops became popular), and all
sorts of other interesting (as opposed to 'tasty') brews.  I doubt that much
of that sort of thing came west to the rendezvous because of the bulk
however, which favors the distilled liquors as trade goods.  My readings
indicate that they enjoyed a certain popularity.   I expect also that most
of that moved west in barrels, does anybody
> have historical data on trappers carrying bottles or jugs of this stuff
themselves?  Seems a risky thing for them to do.
>
> Does anybody have more specific information about which distilled
materials were included in the trade shipments?  I'll check around for
earliest breweries in the West, but I despair of finding anything very close
to the fur trade era because of the infrastructure needed -- good water,
manufactured goods, like tanks, barrels and such.   The east clearly
dominated that until the west was developed enough to support such industry.
Probably some early home brewing and wine making,
> but boy howdy that will be hard to track down.
>
> How about anyone with Native American fermented beverage information?  I
am guessing that they will be even harder to find, consistent with the
fabled impact that white man's fire water had on the native folk.  Anybody
know of native brews?  Other continents have native fermented drinks,
although they seem to be mostly sub tropical or warmer.
>
> Anyway, the impression I have of the trapper is that he 'enjoyed' a life
of abstinence (from liquor that is) until the traders showed up, then he
very much enjoyed the opposite.
>
> Heron,
> proud member of the Oregon Brew Crew too!
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain tanned substitute
Date: 28 Nov 2000 13:27:57 -0800

Diane,
    "Rough-out" suede is usually substituted for brain-tan when using
commercial leather.  There are a number of tanneries trying to mimic the
look  John McKee has been using leather that is a worthy look-alike for his
products.  You can find him at www.stitchingscotsman.com.


Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 10:55 AM


> Howdy Camp!
>
> Been busy reading the Buckskinning set and I got a few questions for the
> group.....
>
> 1) Everybody talks about "brain tanned" deer hide. Is there a commercial
> tanning process that leaves the same colour and texture as brain tanning?
> I.e. what can I ask for at the commercial tannery (not retailer) that will
> pass for brain tanned? (There are lots of Whitetail out here - could
clothe
> the whole camp with what wanders thru my yard in one winter - but the
> government takes a dim view of helping yourself. On the other hand, a lot
of
> those hides taken by the hunters end up in a local tannery.)
>
> 2) In all the pictures I have seen, I don't see anybody wearing ear plugs
or
> eye protection when shooting. Is this a "man-thing"? or is it just for the
> pictures? I can understand not protecting your eyes and ear when hunting
> but, on the range??
>
> Fireproof britches on about the "man-thing - comments appreciated !!
>
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain tanned substitute
Date: 28 Nov 2000 13:56:07 -0800

"Best, Dianne" wrote:

> 1) Everybody talks about "brain tanned" deer hide. Is there a commercial
> tanning process that leaves the same colour and texture as brain tanning?
>
> 2) In all the pictures I have seen, I don't see anybody wearing ear plugs or
> eye protection when shooting. Is this a "man-thing"?

Hallo Dianne

At one time, I believe the "Claw, Antler & Hide Company" was producing "faux"
braintan, however, their website has vanished off the web.  You can check other
companies by going to www.geocities.com/northscribe and following the
"cyberlinks" until you hit the traders.

On the hearing protection.... as an old tanker (M1 battle tanks), I prize what
hearing I still have, and wear them wee little foam things.... but I don't wear
them when getting the picture taken for magazines or newspapers (if I can help
it), 'cause I'm trying to protray a fella from wayyyy back.

Organized ranges such as the one I run for Scouting or our Hunter Education
Program absolutely require ear plugs and eye protection.   If'n you ain't got
the ears and eyes protected, you get bounced off the range.  And that's pretty
standard for these type of events.

It's not so much a "man" thing... although that might have some bearing on it
<G>, I see as many women who don't use ear plugs as men.  It's both an
educational thing, and a free-will thing.

Regards from Idaho

Lee Newbill



>


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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Brain tanned substitute
Date: 28 Nov 2000 13:59:49 -0800

Sorry,
    Try www.stitchinscotsman.com

    Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 1:27 PM


> Diane,
>     "Rough-out" suede is usually substituted for brain-tan when using
> commercial leather.  There are a number of tanneries trying to mimic the
> look  John McKee has been using leather that is a worthy look-alike for
his
> products.  You can find him at www.stitchingscotsman.com.
>
>
> Larry Huber
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Best, Dianne <[e-mail]>
> To: 'MountainMan Digest' <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 10:55 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Brain tanned substitute
>
>
> > Howdy Camp!
> >
> > Been busy reading the Buckskinning set and I got a few questions for the
> > group.....
> >
> > 1) Everybody talks about "brain tanned" deer hide. Is there a commercial
> > tanning process that leaves the same colour and texture as brain
tanning?
> > I.e. what can I ask for at the commercial tannery (not retailer) that
will
> > pass for brain tanned? (There are lots of Whitetail out here - could
> clothe
> > the whole camp with what wanders thru my yard in one winter - but the
> > government takes a dim view of helping yourself. On the other hand, a
lot
> of
> > those hides taken by the hunters end up in a local tannery.)
> >
> > 2) In all the pictures I have seen, I don't see anybody wearing ear
plugs
> or
> > eye protection when shooting. Is this a "man-thing"? or is it just for
the
> > pictures? I can understand not protecting your eyes and ear when hunting
> > but, on the range??
> >
> > Fireproof britches on about the "man-thing - comments appreciated !!
> >
> >
> > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Verlin Kinsey" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dancing 1651 - 1728
Date: 28 Nov 2000 17:35:25 -0600

Below are a couple of links to "period" music.

http://contemplator.com/folk.html
http://chivalry.com/cantaria/lists/traditional.html

YMOS,
Sparky
>From the Flint Hills of Kansas

----- Original Message -----

This is an interesting piece of research - and I am not even a dancer.  On
this theme, do you have any references for music of the time?

Richard James
[e-mail]



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From: "Jennifer Sims" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Brain tanned substitute/"Man thing"
Date: 28 Nov 2000 19:43:02 -0700

Dianne -- can't speak to the former -- just got my first deerhide to try out
braintanning though, so all you experts, wish me luck!

To the latter -- not simply a "man thing."
I started out using hearing protection, since I came over from centerfire
rifles. Then a mentor type handed me a flinter one day, and said "don't
worry about it." So I ditched the muffs, and lo and behold no problems. No
ringing in the ear, not even uncomfortable. Keep in mind though, this is a
single rifle in an open field with a middlin' charge. It's another story
entirely when standing under a roof on a firing line with two dozen people,
so there the muffs stay on. (BTW -- just picked up a first in women's at a
local BP shoot, with a loaner rifle -- yeehaw!)

I guess this all a roundabout way of saying...
"it depends."

Take it for what it's worth -- if my feet were any greener, I'd take root.

-Jennifer




-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Best, Dianne
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 11:56 AM


Howdy Camp!

Been busy reading the Buckskinning set and I got a few questions for the
group.....

1) Everybody talks about "brain tanned" deer hide. Is there a commercial
tanning process that leaves the same colour and texture as brain tanning?
I.e. what can I ask for at the commercial tannery (not retailer) that will
pass for brain tanned? (There are lots of Whitetail out here - could clothe
the whole camp with what wanders thru my yard in one winter - but the
government takes a dim view of helping yourself. On the other hand, a lot of
those hides taken by the hunters end up in a local tannery.)

2) In all the pictures I have seen, I don't see anybody wearing ear plugs or
eye protection when shooting. Is this a "man-thing"? or is it just for the
pictures? I can understand not protecting your eyes and ear when hunting
but, on the range??

Fireproof britches on about the "man-thing - comments appreciated !!


Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dancing 1651 - 1728
Date: 28 Nov 2000 21:58:29 EST


In a message dated 11/28/0 04:40:26 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Below are a couple of links to "period" music.>>

Thank you Sparky.  And thank you also, Dorothy, Toto, Auntie Em, Uncle Henry
and all the other good folks there in Kansas who have brightened all our
childhoods.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Beer / Native Drinks
Date: 28 Nov 2000 23:25:52 -0500 (EST)

Ho the list !
       Its been a while since I last posted, but a message caught my
eye,it was askin bout Native American fermented beverages. I belive the
Mescalaro Apaches brewed a mildly
alcoholic drink from the plant for which they are named,also have heard
tell of fermented drink made by Eskimos and other far northern tribes,it
being a mixture of Reindeer milk and blood although that seems a bit odd
and improbable...anyone else have some toughts on the subject?
                            Y.M.O.S,
                             Michael Anthony Smith Esq.

"In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World"     Thoreau

http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN


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From: "Gary A. Bell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain tanned substitute
Date: 28 Nov 2000 23:38:41 -0800

Howdy Jin-o-ta-ka,

Buckskinning series is top notch.  Not perfect, but a great encyclopedic source
and an excellent starting place.  I find that their articles often miss the
historical accuracy several of the Historische Gestapo types would approve, but
not everybody in this game is that orthodox.  Follow the wisdom found on this
list for a much more historically correct approach.

> 1) Everybody talks about "brain tanned" deer hide. Is there a commercial
> tanning process that leaves the same colour and texture as brain tanning?
> I.e. what can I ask for at the commercial tannery (not retailer) that will
> pass for brain tanned? (There are lots of Whitetail out here - could clothe
> the whole camp with what wanders thru my yard in one winter - but the
> government takes a dim view of helping yourself. On the other hand, a lot of
> those hides taken by the hunters end up in a local tannery.)

I am considering hitting up the meat cutters that handle hunters' deer, elk and
such.  Of course they get the carcass without hide (hopefully!) but I hope to
make connection with the hunters and beg a little.....  You might even know some
hunters with a freezer full of hides -- I know of two among my shooting friends
here in Portland.  Plan A has me reviewing the archives of this list for some
easy recipes.  I do need to find an outdoorsy spot without sensitive neighbors
close downwind though.

> 2) In all the pictures I have seen, I don't see anybody wearing ear plugs or
> eye protection when shooting. Is this a "man-thing"? or is it just for the
> pictures? I can understand not protecting your eyes and ear when hunting
> but, on the range??
>
> Fireproof britches on about the "man-thing - comments appreciated !!

What's that?  Could you speak up there young lady?

I don't expect it is just for the pictures.  You probably got the "man-thing"
about right, surely that is at least partly going on.  I think it is also
inattention to the inconvenient safety equipment, plus a fashion component too.
I have to suspect that the relative minority of women who shoot also have some
similar bad habits, arguing against the "man-thing".

What really makes me cringe is seeing otherwise intelligent shooters blowing
down the barrel after a shot!  When I am range shooting I run a just damp spit
patch through the bore once before loading, which puts out sparks, tests for
unfired loads or debris in the barrel with a depth ring marked on my range rod,
greatly reduces fouling giving more consistant shots and easier loading after a
number of shots, and the air whistling through the nipple certifies a clear
ignition path.


Heron



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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 29 Nov 2000 07:36:57 -0600

Heron asked "How about anyone with Native American fermented beverage
information?"

Now this is off the top of my head and hasn't been verified (yet) but....

Among my People, Maple sap was harvested and turned into sugar long before
the whiteman. I vaguely remember my Seneca Grandmother talking about a
fermented beverage from Maple syrup but I don't remember it having a name.

There is a high sugar content in Maple sap and it would ferment easily. I
don't know by what process it was made but I expect (within the cultural
context) what small amount that were produced would have been consumed "when
it is ready" and not stored. The Maple products were far too valuable to
"waste" on "silly water".

After the coming of Handsome Lake (circa 1820) I suspect that home-made
fermented beverages would have become rare. (Handsome Lake was on a
Temperance kick.)

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beer / Native Drinks
Date: 29 Nov 2000 09:49:31 EST

 [e-mail] writes:

> Eskimos and other far northern tribes,it being a mixture of Reindeer milk
and blood although that seems a bit odd and improbable>>


Since reindeer are an old world species and didn't occur in North America, I
think it is improbable. Although they do show up occasionally in late
December. Sorry just couldn't pass up the opportunity, I'm sure you meant
caribou. You are right though it does seem improbable and is probably another
of those frontier legends, but stranger things happened.

YMOS
Ghosting Wolf

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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 29 Nov 2000 10:31:22 -0600

Whoa! seems I have stirred a hornet's nest again.
I didn't mean to challenge anyones preconceived notions, but to at least
insist the beer we drink be porter (and certainly nothing with the letters
lite in the title.)
Actually, much of what we bring to rendezvous cannot meet the test of using
only what was common at the original rendezvous.  This includes most
everyone sleeping under canvas, everyone having a tomahawk, wooden boxes,
lanterns, beef, hen's eggs, and most other food, and the list goes on.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

you wrote:
>I suppose now there will be a rash of Stewart re-enactors at rendezvous
>washing down their tinned sardines with porter ale, dining on a rubberized
>tarp and shooting game with a matched set of percussion English rifles.
>Waugh! I thought we left civilization East of the Mississippi!


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From: Virden High School <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 29 Nov 2000 10:20:37 -0600

was the beer in cans or bottles........................

Glenn Darilek wrote:

> Whoa! seems I have stirred a hornet's nest again.
> I didn't mean to challenge anyones preconceived notions, but to at least
> insist the beer we drink be porter (and certainly nothing with the letters
> lite in the title.)
> Actually, much of what we bring to rendezvous cannot meet the test of using
> only what was common at the original rendezvous.  This includes most
> everyone sleeping under canvas, everyone having a tomahawk, wooden boxes,
> lanterns, beef, hen's eggs, and most other food, and the list goes on.
>
> Glenn Darilek
> Iron Burner
>
> you wrote:
> >I suppose now there will be a rash of Stewart re-enactors at rendezvous
> >washing down their tinned sardines with porter ale, dining on a rubberized
> >tarp and shooting game with a matched set of percussion English rifles.
> >Waugh! I thought we left civilization East of the Mississippi!
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 29 Nov 2000 08:30:50 -0800

Diane,
    Fermented Maple syrup sounds very similar to mead (fremented honey)of
Norse lore.  I always figured those "Injuns" came from Viking stock!

    Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 5:36 AM


> Heron asked "How about anyone with Native American fermented beverage
> information?"
>
> Now this is off the top of my head and hasn't been verified (yet) but....
>
> Among my People, Maple sap was harvested and turned into sugar long before
> the whiteman. I vaguely remember my Seneca Grandmother talking about a
> fermented beverage from Maple syrup but I don't remember it having a name.
>
> There is a high sugar content in Maple sap and it would ferment easily. I
> don't know by what process it was made but I expect (within the cultural
> context) what small amount that were produced would have been consumed
"when
> it is ready" and not stored. The Maple products were far too valuable to
> "waste" on "silly water".
>
> After the coming of Handsome Lake (circa 1820) I suspect that home-made
> fermented beverages would have become rare. (Handsome Lake was on a
> Temperance kick.)
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 29 Nov 2000 13:18:39 -0500

> Diane,
>     Fermented Maple syrup sounds very similar to mead (fremented honey)of
> Norse lore.  I always figured those "Injuns" came from Viking stock!
>

As a matter of fact, I just set 10 gallons of mead for our anniversary party
at the Alafia River Ronny in January.  Very easy to make... see the receipe
on my web site... www.geocities.com/Yosemite.Geyser/3216

Mead is the oldest known alcoholic beverage known to man, or so I have been
told... GOOD stuff!! Mine usually turns out about 18% alcohol...

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 29 Nov 2000 10:41:14 -0800

Right you are, Glenn,
    A mountain Man's blankets were under his horse's saddle and his "tent"
was the tarp holding the furs and plunder atop his mule.  I'm confident that
a trapper had a good "hawk" with a poll to set his chain sticks but he
didn't pack boxes or eat settler food.  I'm also sure he never tasted porter
at rendezvous neither.  Too little alcohol to make the packin' in worthwhile
to the traders.
    Public rendezvous are not meant to recreate history, just celebrate it.
It's a fun "dress-up" time for most of us and contemporary comforts from
foam moccasin liners to down sleeping bags under period blankets keep us
from sliding too far back into the past.  For those who demand more
"reality", museum reenactments at posts and forts or private outings with
strict guidelines are available.
    My posting wasn't meant to criticize.  I was just "makin' funny".

    Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 8:31 AM


> Whoa! seems I have stirred a hornet's nest again.
> I didn't mean to challenge anyones preconceived notions, but to at least
> insist the beer we drink be porter (and certainly nothing with the letters
> lite in the title.)
> Actually, much of what we bring to rendezvous cannot meet the test of
using
> only what was common at the original rendezvous.  This includes most
> everyone sleeping under canvas, everyone having a tomahawk, wooden boxes,
> lanterns, beef, hen's eggs, and most other food, and the list goes on.
>
> Glenn Darilek
> Iron Burner
>
> you wrote:
> >I suppose now there will be a rash of Stewart re-enactors at rendezvous
> >washing down their tinned sardines with porter ale, dining on a
rubberized
> >tarp and shooting game with a matched set of percussion English rifles.
> >Waugh! I thought we left civilization East of the Mississippi!
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain tanned substitute
Date: 29 Nov 2000 14:07:16 EST

In a message dated 11/28/00 1:56:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< In all the pictures I have seen, I don't see anybody wearing ear plugs or
 eye protection when shooting. Is this a "man-thing"? or is it just for the
 pictures? I can understand not protecting your eyes and ear when hunting
 but, on the range??
  >>
Hi Diane,   I know that many of the pictures do not show it but little foam
ear plugs dissappear in the ear and protect your hearing which can not be
replaced, I know the machine gunner was on my left and I have a mild hearing
loss in that ear.  Our club requires eye and ear protection at all of our
shoots and so do most of the clubs around here.  And when we do reinactment
battles or parades or demos I always have a bag of spare clean (run them thru
the cloths washer) foam ear plugs to give out to those that do not have them.
 And I always have a lot of peope that take them and use them.

If you want a period correct look and eye protection several vendors sell
period correct glasses that can be fitted by Lense Crafters or you local
optomitrist with safety lenses.  My Jeffersonian folding frames have
prescription safety lenses and so do my 1800's oval frames.  Eyes and ears
are to hard to replace so use protection.

YHOS

C.T. Oakes

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From: "Frank V. Rago" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain tanned substitute
Date: 29 Nov 2000 15:03:48 -0800

I have run into the period correct eye wear problem at a few rendezvous.  I
do have period looking glasses that I wear when I shoot and the ear plugs
are hidden by the long hair.  But my problem comes when I flintknapp.  I
always wear the wrap around safety glasses when I knapp as glass shards fly
in all directions.  When I get hasseled about not wearing period correct
glasses I give them a choice, either I stop the knapping exhibition or you
let me protect my eyes the way I see fit.

It's 50/50, most let me knapp, other ask me to stop.  That's fine as then I
can sit and drink my coffee and shoot the bull around a fire.

Either way I'm a winner.

FVR

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 11:07 AM


> In a message dated 11/28/00 1:56:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> << In all the pictures I have seen, I don't see anybody wearing ear plugs
or
>  eye protection when shooting. Is this a "man-thing"? or is it just for
the
>  pictures? I can understand not protecting your eyes and ear when hunting
>  but, on the range??
>   >>
> Hi Diane,   I know that many of the pictures do not show it but little
foam
> ear plugs dissappear in the ear and protect your hearing which can not be
> replaced, I know the machine gunner was on my left and I have a mild
hearing
> loss in that ear.  Our club requires eye and ear protection at all of our
> shoots and so do most of the clubs around here.  And when we do
reinactment
> battles or parades or demos I always have a bag of spare clean (run them
thru
> the cloths washer) foam ear plugs to give out to those that do not have
them.
>  And I always have a lot of peope that take them and use them.
>
> If you want a period correct look and eye protection several vendors sell
> period correct glasses that can be fitted by Lense Crafters or you local
> optomitrist with safety lenses.  My Jeffersonian folding frames have
> prescription safety lenses and so do my 1800's oval frames.  Eyes and ears
> are to hard to replace so use protection.
>
> YHOS
>
> C.T. Oakes
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 29 Nov 2000 12:05:52 -0800

I have read the replies to this thread with interest, from the standpoint of my
ongoing research and the standpoint of an amateur brewer.

A couple of things worth pointing out...

1.  On the Reindeer brew... I believe (as has been pointed out) that's an
old-world Laplander thing, particularly since they are the folks who
traditionally herd those animals.  Hard to milk a running Caribou.

2.  If the American Indians (of the North) had a native alcoholic brew before,
or during the height of the furtrade, I think they would have been more
prepared for the furtrader's rum/whiskey/everclear.... if you read about the
first contacts made in the Canada's, where rum(?) was supplied liberally to
part the good folks of the Lakes with their furs, they speak of the Indians
drinking to experience visions, which normally took 'em a couple of three days
of staying awake and fasting to experiance (i.e. sleep deprived
hallucinations).  In my humble opinion, if any kind of native alcoholic drink
was already present, the tribes would have already been aware of this
phenomenon.  The records indicate they were totally overwhelmed by the traders
"generosity".

Regards

Lee Newbill of North Idaho




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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 29 Nov 2000 15:45:09 -0700

Gentelmen,
As I remember, the fur trade as operated by Astor was a fort/trading post
afair, where natives and white trappers would bring furs and trade for
whiskey and re-supply, then there were forts built by Hudson Bay,North West
Co., and finnaly in 1825 you get the Rendezvous system as started by Ashley.
Now having said that, the west was not as sparsley populated by places to
get whiskey or any such other goods as we would like to think. I think that
we have a lot of "Back Packer" mentality when we should be thinking Truck
Driver.
I spent 6 months in the Alaskan bush and the first thing I figured out was
how to improve my creature comforts and how and where to get more, I am sure
trapers of old did the same.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
>Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000, 11:41 AM
>

>Right you are, Glenn,
>    A mountain Man's blankets were under his horse's saddle and his "tent"
>was the tarp holding the furs and plunder atop his mule.  I'm confident that
>a trapper had a good "hawk" with a poll to set his chain sticks but he
>didn't pack boxes or eat settler food.  I'm also sure he never tasted porter
>at rendezvous neither.  Too little alcohol to make the packin' in worthwhile
>to the traders.
>    Public rendezvous are not meant to recreate history, just celebrate it.
>It's a fun "dress-up" time for most of us and contemporary comforts from
>foam moccasin liners to down sleeping bags under period blankets keep us
>from sliding too far back into the past.  For those who demand more
>"reality", museum reenactments at posts and forts or private outings with
>strict guidelines are available.
>    My posting wasn't meant to criticize.  I was just "makin' funny".
>
>    Larry Huber
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 8:31 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Beer
>
>
>> Whoa! seems I have stirred a hornet's nest again.
>> I didn't mean to challenge anyones preconceived notions, but to at least
>> insist the beer we drink be porter (and certainly nothing with the letters
>> lite in the title.)
>> Actually, much of what we bring to rendezvous cannot meet the test of
>using
>> only what was common at the original rendezvous.  This includes most
>> everyone sleeping under canvas, everyone having a tomahawk, wooden boxes,
>> lanterns, beef, hen's eggs, and most other food, and the list goes on.
>>
>> Glenn Darilek
>> Iron Burner
>>
>> you wrote:
>> >I suppose now there will be a rash of Stewart re-enactors at rendezvous
>> >washing down their tinned sardines with porter ale, dining on a
>rubberized
>> >tarp and shooting game with a matched set of percussion English rifles.
>> >Waugh! I thought we left civilization East of the Mississippi!
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Beer / Native Drinks
Date: 29 Nov 2000 20:37:48 -0600

Horse milk & blood was a common Mongol drink, called kumis or khavass =
depending on tribe.   Other nomadic peoples have made similar drinks, =
including the bedouins of northern Africa.   Sounds nasty as all get out =
to me, but then again, I'm a spoiled product o' my times, and like my =
single malt scotch.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of =
[e-mail]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 8:50 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beer / Native Drinks
>=20
>=20
>  [e-mail] writes:
>=20
> > Eskimos and other far northern tribes,it being a mixture of=20
> Reindeer milk=20
> and blood although that seems a bit odd and improbable>>
>=20
>=20
> Since reindeer are an old world species and didn't occur in North=20
> America, I=20
> think it is improbable. Although they do show up occasionally in late=20
> December. Sorry just couldn't pass up the opportunity, I'm sure you =
meant=20
> caribou. You are right though it does seem improbable and is=20
> probably another=20
> of those frontier legends, but stranger things happened.
>=20
> YMOS
> Ghosting Wolf
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning leather
Date: 29 Nov 2000 22:27:30 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05A53.8FA95AC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Iam asking this for a friend of mine.  does anybody out there know of =
anything other than brains that can be used as a substitute for brain =
tanning hides? I have heard of lard, or naptha soap.   if I've heard =
right, how are they used?
thanks Tom

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05A53.8FA95AC0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Iam asking this for a friend of =
mine.  does=20
anybody out there know of anything other than brains that can be used as =
a=20
substitute for brain tanning hides? I have heard of lard, or naptha =

soap.   if I've heard right, how are they used?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>thanks Tom</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05A53.8FA95AC0--


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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning leather
Date: 29 Nov 2000 21:48:44 -0800

Tom, I've heard that eggs can be used.  I'm allergic to eggs, even
touching them, so I never paid it much attention.  From what I know it
produces the same leather as brain tan.   Sorry , i have no details, but
this may be a lead to follow.   hardtack

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 30 Nov 2000 01:02:30 EST


In a message dated 11/29/0 03:48:02 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<natives and white trappers would bring furs and trade for
whiskey and re-supply, >>

There seems to be a forgone conclusion in the minds and hearts of some that
whiskey was a basic need for survival.  Not necessarily so.  Then - like now
- some were adicted to it and some were not.  Some Indians demanded it and
some tribal leaders forbade it.  Some died because of it including one
red-head who hair was doused with it at Rendezvous and then ignited.
Ironically he was nearly beaten to death by well meaning associates trying to
beat out the flames.
R. James

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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning leather
Date: 29 Nov 2000 22:05:11 -0800

Thomas Ballstaedt wrote:

> Iam asking this for a friend of mine.  does anybody out there know of
> anything other than brains that can be used as a substitute for brain
> tanning hides? I have heard of lard, or naptha soap.  if I've heard
> right, how are they used?

Thomas

I do not profess to be an expert at braintanning, have tried my hand at
it, and am working on several hides as part of the AMM pilgrimage....
take a look at the following website

http://www.braintan.com/toc.html

I am using their book, "Deerskins into Buckskins" to help.  They speak
of soap tanned, vegtable tanned, egg tanned, and of course, brain
tanned.

Regards from Idaho

Lee Newbill


>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning leather
Date: 30 Nov 2000 01:14:32 EST

Tom - If you can get one of the old Handicraft books by Lester Griswold, it
mentions a number of things including wheat flour and soap.  Eggs are another
alternative.  Salt and alum are well known but this is called "tawing" rather
than tanning.  Sulphuric (battery) acid - greatly diluted - is another
material and Jim (Dr. James - "Mt. Man Sketchbooks") Hansen showed me some
Sioux buckskin about 30 years ago that was tanned with detergent.  If you
don't get what you need from your e-mail, write me back and I will look up
the details on these many variations.  I do have pieces of a hide I "tawed"
in California in 1948 that is still in great shape.
Richard C. James

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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Smokes??
Date: 30 Nov 2000 07:34:58 -0600

Another question from the recent arrival....

I have heard that smoking "tobacco wrapped in white paper" is not allowed at
Rendezvous. As one who makes way too many tobacco offerings every day with
roll-your-owns, I assume that I will be relegated to a clay pipe during
gatherings?

Take my word for it, this old Granny without her smoke would be one wild
Indian. Something like that could lead to another Indian uprising! From my
past experience in trying to quit, I have come to the conclusion that
Custer's troop overtook Sitting Bull's people on Sitting Bull's first day of
trying to quit!

Comments??



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From: "Colleen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes??
Date: 30 Nov 2000 08:36:51 -0500

> Comments??

I smoke a clay pipe or the occasional cigar, which I prefer!

Colleen

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes??
Date: 30 Nov 2000 06:47:28 -0700

Dianne,
I quit 25 years ago and it was tough, I figured that I had to un learn the
same way I started. If you want to know how contact me off list.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
>To: "'MountainMan Digest'" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Smokes??
>Date: Thu, Nov 30, 2000, 6:34 AM
>

>Another question from the recent arrival....
>
>I have heard that smoking "tobacco wrapped in white paper" is not allowed at
>Rendezvous. As one who makes way too many tobacco offerings every day with
>roll-your-owns, I assume that I will be relegated to a clay pipe during
>gatherings?
>
>Take my word for it, this old Granny without her smoke would be one wild
>Indian. Something like that could lead to another Indian uprising! From my
>past experience in trying to quit, I have come to the conclusion that
>Custer's troop overtook Sitting Bull's people on Sitting Bull's first day of
>trying to quit!
>
>Comments??
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes
Date: 30 Nov 2000 09:15:45 -0600

I'm looking for some Ojibway style snowshoes, with rawhide lacing.
Anyone out there no of a good place with a good price?

So far the best I've found is at Andriondac Outdoors for $84.95 without
bindings.  These are 12x60.

Thanks,

Jim

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning leather
Date: 30 Nov 2000 10:31:06 EST

[e-mail] writes:

> Iam asking this for a friend of mine.  does anybody out there know of
> anything other than brains that can be used as a substitute for brain
tanning
> hides?>>

A Turtle Mountain Chippewa told me he learned to use 50% fabric softner and
50% water in an old washing machine to make a braintan substitute. He said he
learned this when visiting with the Assiniboine. He does the usual de-hairing
(using hydrated lime and water) and scraping to rough up the hide. He uses a
rotary sander to remove membrane and excess tissue on a dry stretched hide.
Then he uses the fabric softner and water. He used to soak it for several
days, stirring several times a day. With the washer he agitates it several
times a day and it doesn't take as long and it penetrates better. Restretchs
the hide and works out any hard spots. When it's where he wants it he smokes
it. He says it looks, feels, acts and smells like braintan.  He said you
can't tell the difference. Piece of leather he showed me was
indistinguishable from braintan in every respect. I'm waiting for better
weather, more time and an old ringer washer to try this out.

YMOS
Ghosting Wolf

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes??
Date: 30 Nov 2000 07:32:49 -0800

The preferred method of smoking during our period was with a pipe.  Clay,
mostly, but the tribes used stone carved bowls.  The red Pipestone from
Western Minnesota was the most abundant.  The quarries are still being mined
today.  Besides the long stemmed "peace pipe" used during gatherings,
smaller stemmed personal pipes were used.
Having said that, Indians and Europeans in Spanish held territory smoked a
"cigarette" wrapped in corn husk and cigars were not uncommon.  Pick
something to the character you represent, become accustomed to it and your
vice can still be accommodated.

    Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 5:47 AM


> Dianne,
> I quit 25 years ago and it was tough, I figured that I had to un learn the
> same way I started. If you want to know how contact me off list.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
> >To: "'MountainMan Digest'" <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: MtMan-List: Smokes??
> >Date: Thu, Nov 30, 2000, 6:34 AM
> >
>
> >Another question from the recent arrival....
> >
> >I have heard that smoking "tobacco wrapped in white paper" is not allowed
at
> >Rendezvous. As one who makes way too many tobacco offerings every day
with
> >roll-your-owns, I assume that I will be relegated to a clay pipe during
> >gatherings?
> >
> >Take my word for it, this old Granny without her smoke would be one wild
> >Indian. Something like that could lead to another Indian uprising! From
my
> >past experience in trying to quit, I have come to the conclusion that
> >Custer's troop overtook Sitting Bull's people on Sitting Bull's first day
of
> >trying to quit!
> >
> >Comments??
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: camp names
Date: 30 Nov 2000 10:04:27 -0600

    I would appreciate being educated on what is considered the protocol for
an individual to identify himself with a 'camp name'.  For a long time I
have used one but at other times have been called another.  I do know that
there is a practice of a name being "given" at a ceremony but I have never
witnessed such a ceremony.
    I also am aware that, if anyone responds, we may see some wildly
divergent points of view on this question.
    Now I will tell the two names and how they came about.
    For many years, I have identified myself as "Bearclaw". Perhaps not
original but I like it for several reasons. I like and respect bears and the
way they conduct themselves. I choose that name because I believe it
reflects my personality.  Bears tend to go about their business quietly and
will slip away at the first sign of trouble. However, if one is cornered or
their offspring are threatened they will fight and defend with a ferocity
that is almost unstoppable.  I am often perceived as mild mannered and
retiring and will leave the scene if there is a possibility of some kind of
violence.
    However, if my family or my well being is threatened and there is no
other recourse I will defend vigorously with whatever means are at my
disposal, hands, knife, hawk or gun until the attacker is subdued. No
quarter.
    That is that name story.
    The other camp name that some have called me is "Short Grass". I do not
like it and do not use it.
    At one time we had a local group of 'skinners who started using that to
address me. It came about because some of the group could not understand or
pronounce my last name, Fusco.  Some thought it was 'fescue' like the
pasture grass. From that came "Short Grass".  Some local guys still call me
that and I take no offense but I never introduce myself with that moniker.
    OK, pitch in. Do I have a 'proper' camp name or not?
    What is the accepted custom?
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ojibway style snowshoes
Date: 30 Nov 2000 11:14:15 -0500

Check www.sportsmansguide.com  They have some advertised in one of their
catalogs.

Ad Miller



> I'm looking for some Ojibway style snowshoes, with rawhide lacing.
> Anyone out there no of a good place with a good price?
>
> So far the best I've found is at Andriondac Outdoors for $84.95 without
> bindings.  These are 12x60.



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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names
Date: 30 Nov 2000 11:20:43 -0500

If you gave yourself a "camp name" it would, in my somewhat dubious circle
of "friends" , seem some what egotistical & even  pompus and would not stand
for very damned long....One does not choose his/her camp name.. It is given
and if it sticks, you are stuck with it until you do something that creates
a need for change, either an honorable action, mannerism, characteristic or
something you did that defies the fact that you are supposedly a thinking,
rational being.
D

"It doesn't matter HOW MANY "skydives" you've got behind you..
Until you have stepped out of a door of an airplane in total darkness
at twelve hundred and fifty feet  wearing ninety-five pounds of
equipment and forty-two pounds of parachute. You are STILL a leg...."
AIRBORNE



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From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beer
Date: 30 Nov 2000 10:33:35 -0600

Larry Huber wrote: "I always figured those "Injuns" came from Viking stock!"

Well, again from the oral history, my Grandmother told me there were
blue-eyed people among the Iroquois before Columbus came. The cultural
history said the Europeans were received "too well" because they looked so
much like our own people (just a bit smaller and a lot stinkier! - sorry! -
the Europeans didn't bathe often and most native people had some form of
"sweat lodge", so the new arrivals were often perceived as "dirty")

As an aside, I did hear of a linguistic study of Native languages which was
attempting to determine when various groups of people "split" into two
groups through rate of evolution of their languages. The interesting thing
that struck me from the categorization of the language families was that one
Native language in the American southeast was only related to one other
language in the world - from the area of NORTHERN SPAIN! (I wish I could
find the reference to that linguistic study again!!!) Figure that out!

To reiterate, on the subject of fermented beverages, Maple sap/sugar was a
very important part of the Iroquoian diet and highly valued, not just as a
commodity but also having a spiritual element. Although some would/may have
been allowed to ferment, such a use would have been seen as extravagant.

Also, I do not know what percentage of alcohol would have been attainable
without sterile handling, vapour traps, etc. I have no doubt that the
European beverages were WAY more potent and much more plentiful than the
local products.

I will do some more research and see if I can find the traditional name for
fermented Maple sap.

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes??
Date: 30 Nov 2000 12:04:26 EST

I bought two clay pipes this summer.  One (ceramic) was made by the potter, Sprinkle - from Texas.  Lanney introduced me to his work a couple of years ago and I have become a collector.

One consideration is the length of the stem.  You can buy them where the bowl simply fits into the stem, which helps packing.

Laura Jean

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names
Date: 30 Nov 2000 12:10:47 EST

Frank, It sounds like you just haven't righteously screwed-up yet!   Are you
hiding a story that will get you an appropriate name?  Anybody seen or heard
of anything we could use against him? <GGG>  Come'on guys, spit it out....
          Barney (aptly camp-named Barney Fife, in ceremony, after a shooting
incident (read accident), and yep, now I'm only allowed to carry one bullet,
in my pocket! LOLOL

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning leather
Date: 30 Nov 2000 13:07:50 EST


In a message dated 11/30/0 08:32:22 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Then he uses the fabric softner and water. He used to soak it for several
days, stirring several times a day. >>

Regarding fabric softner and substitute brain-tanning:
In a visit with one of the finest tanners known in this region I was told
this:  The hides, after brain tanning, but before stretching can be soaked in
water with fabric softener for a better product.  This from Shoshone Walace
Zundel.  His wife, Hazel, immediately remarked, "don't leave them in there
too long, though, or they will ruin".  Walace's comment, "this is true, but
if you do it right, it sure makes them smell good!".  There are no details
here but just the comments of a couple of people who knew their business but
have since gone under.
R. James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mttn. Man list Smokes?
Date: 30 Nov 2000 13:26:21 -0500 (EST)

Dianne, don't smoke your hand roll tobacco in your clay, as it burns
hotter then Hades!!! Get some Straight Virginia (very period but still a
bit hot!) or better yet a natural "Cigar Leave" Blend for a cooler
smoke! Not to nag but.. quite those dang Cigarettes,not very period
correct and a bit contrary to traditional Native beliefs,please don't
take offence as this comes from and ex-cigarette(15 years) smoker and
fellow person of Native decent, who now enjoys the occasional Pipe or
Cigar!
                                         I remain ,
                                                 Michael A. Smith

"In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World"     Thoreau

http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names
Date: 30 Nov 2000 13:40:23 EST


In a message dated 11/30/0 09:05:40 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<  OK, pitch in. Do I have a 'proper' camp name or not?

    What is the accepted custom?

Frank G. Fusco

Mountain Home, Arkansas>>

Frank:  In the early formative period of AMM I issued memberships from=20
two-digit numbers up to the high 700s.  I found applicants presented=20
themselves with an overwhelming preponderance of "Bear" names.  I appealed t=
o=20
the membership at the 1976 Rendezvous to look in a different direction when=20
assigning themselvs names as we had many duplicates of all parts of bear=20
anatomy - Bear Paw, Bear Paw, Bear Nose, Bears' Ears, Bear Butt, plus the=20
variations of "Griz" Bear.  This appeal was not to point out any flaw of=20
reasoning but to make all aware of duplication.  Many Hispanics are named=20
Juan or Jesus.  Many Italians are Tony.  So I guess lots of Bears does not=20
break any precidence.  Indian boys usually started out with one name but tha=
t=20
name was changed when they later "came of age" (16 + or - ).  The second was=
=20
more of an earned name.  For myself, the original Capitaine used to call me=20
"Utah" - probably because I was the only one from this state he phoned on a=20
regular basis.   I never really accepted or used this one because there were=
=20
many others from Utah and I still felt an allegance to Wyoming where I grew=20
up.  (We already had a  "Wyoming", though, but he lived in Colorado). He=20
later called me Pathfinder because  six of us were lost in the village of=20
Park City at night until we finally found "the spot".  That wasn't much of a=
=20
claim to fame as it was issued "tongue-in-cheek", and so I never advertised=20
that one either.  Finally I picked up a handle assigned me by an old, wise=20
and thoroughly delightful Gosiute lady - Grandma  Bear : the name Dah Pud=20
Ootsie Bodee.  I use it because I came by it honestly from an Indian and it=20
is accepted by other Indians - Gosiute and Shoshone.   It is not at all mach=
o=20
and could in fact be a "sissy" name.  But these folk have different values=20
than we and within the last 150 years have used names like Black Penis and=20
Smelly Vagina.   A note on this:  Chief Edgar Red Cloud once told me that=20
Indians (he was speaking for the Sioux) have no swear words in their languag=
e=20
like we have in the European-stemmed languages.  If the occasion for insult=20
arose,  rather  than: ##@#~~=A3 =A2=A2 =A7 =A2=95=B6=A7=95 =A7##!!, they wou=
ld say "You have a=20
big  nose!" or some such to point out their opponent's embarassing flaws.
So - Your Mountain Man name.  The possibilities are as numerous as there are=
=20
individuals who sport such names.   . . . Free country.  Its up to you.   Yo=
u=20
asked the time . . . .the above is directions for building your own watch. =20=
I=20
wish you peach and comfort in your decision.

Respectfully
Richard James

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Beer / Native Drinks
Date: 30 Nov 2000 13:44:53 -0500 (EST)

I belive your wrong about Reindeer being only from Europe.In my Funk and
Wagnalls New Standard Encyclopedia under Reindeer : (Rangifr tarandus)
a species of deer, native of the northern parts of Europe, Asia, and
America... This however in no way proves my other statement which was
just something I heard and may very well be a "Frontier Legend".

                                       Y.M.O.S
                                                   M.A Smith Esq.

"In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World"     Thoreau

http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN


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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Camp names
Date: 30 Nov 2000 10:59:49 -0800

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Frank,
    Camp names can be given formally in a ceremony or naturally by =
common usage.  You're not supposed to have to like your common-usage =
name. =20
    In the circle of "skinners" our family traveled in, we evolved a =
"naming ceremony" for young people of a certain age.  Among males it was =
generally the celebration of the thirteenth birthday.  Among females =
(who mature earlier) it was done when thought appropriate by the Women's =
Society. On the two occasions of female naming I participated in, it =
involved a passing and  progression.  One young woman taking over the =
family after the death of her father and the other woman leaving to =
attend college.  In both genders it often involved much emotion. =20
    The young males endured a "gauntlet".  They had to proceed slowly =
down two parallel lines of adults who would step out one at a time and =
speak on the observations of the growth of the "boy- becoming-man" and =
suggest a name.  The adult would step back into line, often delivering =
the boy a whack on the bottom as he passed to the next adult.  At the =
end of the line was the boy's father who considered the names proposed =
and declared the final name the young man would be known as.  Gifts were =
usually presented to the "new man" entering the family after this.
    Among the women, the adults formed a circle and the new woman walked =
around the circle stopping in front of each adult who had a suggestion =
and a story.  The mother or "Aunt" of the "Girl-becoming-Woman" would =
bestow the name at the end.  The results of the two female ceremonies =
was "Wind in the Trees Woman" and "Looks East Woman".  Both very =
emotional namings.
    I received my names by general usage, the one replacing the earlier =
name. Often times the name marks a major screw-up unfortunately =
witnessed by your "brothers".  My current name was the result of a =
premature discharge of my Sharps rifle after a long sneak up on a small =
herd of buffalo bulls on the South Dakota prairie.  I would rather my =
camp name recorded a work of prowess but, unfortunately, I am due to =
remain:

    "Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber
 =20

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Camp names can be =
given formally=20
in a ceremony or naturally by common usage.  You're not supposed to =
have to=20
like your common-usage name.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    In the circle =
of "skinners"=20
our family traveled in, we evolved a "naming ceremony" for young people =
of a=20
certain age.  Among males it was generally the celebration of the=20
thirteenth birthday.  Among females (who mature earlier) it was =
done when=20
thought appropriate by the Women's Society. On the two occasions of =
female=20
naming I participated in, it involved a passing and  progression.  =
One=20
young woman taking over the family after the death of her father and the =
other=20
woman leaving to attend college.  In both genders it often involved =
much=20
emotion.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    The young males =
endured a=20
"gauntlet".  They had to proceed slowly down two parallel lines of =
adults=20
who would step out one at a time and speak on the observations of the =
growth of=20
the "boy- becoming-man" and suggest a name.  The adult would step =
back into=20
line, often delivering the boy a whack on the bottom as he passed to the =
next=20
adult.  At the end of the line was the boy's father who considered =
the=20
names proposed and declared the final name the young man would be known=20
as.  Gifts were usually presented to the "new man" entering the =
family=20
after this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Among the women, the =
adults=20
formed a circle and the new woman walked around the circle stopping in =
front of=20
each adult who had a suggestion and a story.  The mother or "Aunt" =
of the=20
"Girl-becoming-Woman" would bestow the name at the end.  The =
results of the=20
two female ceremonies was "Wind in the Trees Woman" and "Looks East=20
Woman".  Both very emotional namings.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    I received my names =
by general=20
usage, the one replacing the earlier name. Often times the name marks a =
major=20
screw-up unfortunately witnessed by your "brothers".  My current =
name was=20
the result of a premature discharge of my Sharps rifle after a long =
sneak up on=20
a small herd of buffalo bulls on the South Dakota prairie.  I would =
rather=20
my camp name recorded a work of prowess but, unfortunately, I am due to=20
remain:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    "Shoots-the-Prairie" =
Larry=20
Huber</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> <SPAN =
id=3D__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Daniel L. Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: camp names
Date: 30 Nov 2000 14:13:01 -0700


If you gave yourself a "camp name" it would, in
my somewhat dubious circle of "friends" , seem
some what egotistical & even=A0pompus and would not
stand for very damned long....
D.
------------------------
Isn't that the truth, how many times has one's
name changed through the years and not by choice,
right Dennis.

Later,
Daniel "Concho" L.Smith
Site Survey & Research for:
____________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ _______HRD__
____________________________________________
Research page:
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__
____________________________________________



Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes??
Date: 30 Nov 2000 15:20:41 -0500

Laura
 I got a couple of clays from a fella in Canada that does them with pipe
clay, in the traditional manner . Best doggone pipes I ever had. I will hunt
up his website and post it, if I can find it.. Nice fella to deal with..
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
        I Now Offer Gift Certificates


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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: camp names
Date: 30 Nov 2000 15:28:12 -0500

------------------------
"how many times has one's name changed through the years and not by choice,
right Dennis."

Concho,
Yup...<>G
D
(Deux Espouses, A name that is seldom used by anyone other than close
friends, but has endured for many a year)



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From: "Ken Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning leather
Date: 30 Nov 2000 15:44:57 -0500

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Tom-
When I tan deer and coyote hides I buy regular tanning chemicals from a =
taxidermy supply catalog.  They do a very good job.  I am getting ready =
to tan a few coyote hides in the next couple of weeks.  I do have the =
instructions for tanning with naptha soap and neatsfoot oil but it is =
alot of work.  My step-dad (who is a taxidermist) convinced me of the =
modern ways.  If you still want the steps for the naptha soap I can dig =
them up and scan them to you.

Ken
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 1:27 AM


Iam asking this for a friend of mine.  does anybody out there know of =
anything other than brains that can be used as a substitute for brain =
tanning hides? I have heard of lard, or naptha soap.  if I've heard =
right, how are they used?
thanks Tom

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Tom-</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>When I tan deer and coyote hides I buy regular =
tanning=20
chemicals from a taxidermy supply catalog.  They do a very good =
job. =20
I am getting ready to tan a few coyote hides in the next couple of =
weeks. =20
I do have the instructions for tanning with naptha soap and neatsfoot =
oil but it=20
is alot of work.  My step-dad (who is a taxidermist) convinced me =
of the=20
modern ways.  If you still want the steps for the naptha soap I can =
dig=20
them up and scan them to you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ken</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Thomas=20
Ballstaedt</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[e-mail]=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 30, 2000 1:27 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning=20
leather</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Iam asking this for a friend of =
mine.  does=20
anybody out there know of anything other than brains that can be used as =
a=20
substitute for brain tanning hides? I have heard of lard, or naptha =

soap.  if I've heard right, how are they used?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>thanks Tom</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning leather
Date: 30 Nov 2000 16:18:48 EST

In a message dated 11/29/00, [e-mail] writes:

<< Iam asking this for a friend of mine.  does anybody out there know of
anything other than brains that can be used as a substitute for brain tanning
hides? I have heard of lard, or naptha soap.   if I've heard right, how are
they used?
 thanks Tom >>

You need not use a substitute. just use brains.  If the hides you have came
just as hides and not from a deer, meaning you have not got the dee'r's
brains....just head to the butcher and pick up some brains.  A cow's brains
will tan the hide just as well from what I have read.


Longshot

"Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage"
(Newly Redesigned)
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Smokes??
Date: 30 Nov 2000 14:15:09 -0700

Ho the camp,

I don't know if this is the one Dennis is referring to, but here is a good site

Olde World Clay's

http://www.bytor.com/pipes/pipes.htm


Lou Sickler
Colorado


> -----Original Message-----
> From:    Dennis Miles [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Thursday, November 30, 2000 1:21 PM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: Smokes??
>
> Laura
>  I got a couple of clays from a fella in Canada that does them with pipe
> clay, in the traditional manner . Best doggone pipes I ever had. I will hunt
> up his website and post it, if I can find it.. Nice fella to deal with..
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>             DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>     http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>         I Now Offer Gift Certificates
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes??
Date: 30 Nov 2000 16:31:49 -0500

Louis,
 That's the one.... Finest, coolest smoking clays made.. NO comparison to
those "clays" that are sold at most doins...  The price is awful reasonable
if you stick to the simple models. And it is real nice to just put it in the
coals at night and in the morning you have a fresh, clean pipe to enjoy.  A
sheer joy, inded.
D

> Olde World Clay's
>
> http://www.bytor.com/pipes/pipes.htm



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning leather
Date: 30 Nov 2000 14:39:41 -0700

Ho the list,

This has been my thoughts on this whole thread.  Once again,  trying to get around or find a substitute ends up being harder than the original method.  More often than not,  I don't get home from the hunting trip with the brains from the animals killed.  Even grocery stores will order you in some brains,  albeit with sometimes funny expressions,  but once they get to know you it almost becomes a point of humor.

Yes,  beef brains do a great job.  It seems I always need more than the animal would have provided anyway.  They are so cheap, I use them once and discard them.  More environmentally friendly than some of the "commercial" methods that contain chromium, etc.  Would everyone dispose of the waste with proper care?

So, all you folks wanting to tan,  use brains and go for it.

Also, anyone in the Colorado front range who would like a hands on demo, contact me off list.  I can always use some help getting stuff tanned.

Lou Sickler


> -----Original Message-----
> From:    [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Thursday, November 30, 2000 2:19 PM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning leather
>
> In a message dated 11/29/00, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << Iam asking this for a friend of mine.  does anybody out there know of
> anything other than brains that can be used as a substitute for brain tanning
> hides? I have heard of lard, or naptha soap.   if I've heard right, how are
> they used?
>  thanks Tom >>
>
> You need not use a substitute. just use brains.  If the hides you have came
> just as hides and not from a deer, meaning you have not got the dee'r's
> brains....just head to the butcher and pick up some brains.  A cow's brains
> will tan the hide just as well from what I have read.
>
>
> Longshot
>
> "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage"
> (Newly Redesigned)
> http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes??
Date: 30 Nov 2000 14:22:04 -0800


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 5:34 AM


> Another question from the recent arrival....
>
> I have heard that smoking "tobacco wrapped in white paper" is not allowed
at
> Rendezvous. As one who makes way too many tobacco offerings every day with
> roll-your-owns, I assume that I will be relegated to a clay pipe during
> gatherings?

Dianne,

I see you have gotten some good advice and answers to your question. May I
offer some more perspective? Keep in mind that "Rendezvous" is not an
inclusive term. There are many different "rendezvous" with just as many
different rules of conduct. I suppose in the most strictly "juried" events,
using white paper cigarettes whether hand rolled or ready made would not be
permitted. I can't imagine someone not being aware of that going in if they
are at all careful to read the "list of requirements".  In such situations,
the several suggested alternatives would likely be acceptable such as cigars
and pipes.

In the spirit of the events, most open Western Rendezvous' don't prohibit
ready made cigarettes but most folks that want to really get into the "game"
will roll their own or smoke a pipe or cigars or cigarillos (those little
black nasty things that are dang near impossible to inhale <G>). At less
formal club shoot/rendezvous, not even that is particularly required much
less practiced.

I for one don't care what you smoke. What bothers me more than anything else
is what is done with the cigarette butt after it's smoked. I really wish
cigarette smokers would not just throw their butts down on the ground. I
really would prefer they not even throw them into a none burning fire pit.
It's analogous to throwing pop can pull tabs down or the empty can itself.
What is otherwise a beautiful scene of recreated history is some how spoiled
by all those filters, etc. laying around. When I was a heavy smoker I
probably didn't think about it all that much either. The habit was so
consuming. I still use tobacco (chew) and occasionally smoke a clay pipe
(though I am trying not to do that any more) but where my spit goes and
where my pipe smoke goes is of concern to others and it is incumbent on me
to take that into consideration regardless of what vice I choose to indulge
in.

Hope that helps in its own way. Try learning how to roll your own "doogy"
(there's something endearing and romantic,even sensual,  in a lady rolling a
cig by hand in the great out of doors <G>) and if not then try a pipe and if
not then at least be sure to field strip your butt's when your through. <G>
Other than that, I don't think most folks care how you get your fix. <G>
Good luck and good health. I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alternatives for brain tanning leather
Date: 30 Nov 2000 17:03:05 -0600


> > Iam asking this for a friend of mine.  does anybody out there know of
> > anything other than brains that can be used as a substitute for brain
> > tanning hides? I have heard of lard, or naptha soap.  if I've heard
> > right, how are they used?
>
I recieved this information from another list. The poster is known for his
knowledge and truthfulness. That said, I have not tried this method of
tannning.

The Mayo Tanning Recipe

1 lb of mayo (I think it's a 32oz jar) regular, not fat free
1 bar of Ivory soap (is purer tha other types) cut into slivers
1 gal water

You have to mix all ingredients until the soap shavings or
slivers are dissolved.  I soak the rawhide overnight and work the
next day.

Like all of my postings to this group, I never post anything unless I
have an experiential knowledge of it.  The mayo technique works very
well.  I also live where there are few if any butcher shops but a lot
of people dropping off deer skins for me to work.




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From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Camp names
Date: 30 Nov 2000 19:34:08 -0600

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I remember asking this question a while ago Frank, and was told the same
thing.   Names are given, not chosen.   A friend of mine will probably be
called Wrong Way for a while, least until he gets a new name.    Something
about going to Lincon from Kansas City, by way a Des Moines.  =).    And he
wasn't exactly pleased with it much either.  Probably why we still call him
that.
So far, I've managed to avoid embarassing myself too much, and haven't
earned a name yet.

Todd
  -----Original Message-----
  From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Larry Huber
  Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 1:00 PM
  To: [e-mail]
  Subject: MtMan-List: Camp names


  Frank,
      Camp names can be given formally in a ceremony or naturally by common
usage.  You're not supposed to have to like your common-usage name.
      In the circle of "skinners" our family traveled in, we evolved a
"naming ceremony" for young people of a certain age.  Among males it was
generally the celebration of the thirteenth birthday.  Among females (who
mature earlier) it was done when thought appropriate by the Women's Society.
On the two occasions of female naming I participated in, it involved a
passing and progression.  One young woman taking over the family after the
death of her father and the other woman leaving to attend college.  In both
genders it often involved much emotion.
      The young males endured a "gauntlet".  They had to proceed slowly down
two parallel lines of adults who would step out one at a time and speak on
the observations of the growth of the "boy- becoming-man" and suggest a
name.  The adult would step back into line, often delivering the boy a whack
on the bottom as he passed to the next adult.  At the end of the line was
the boy's father who considered the names proposed and declared the final
name the young man would be known as.  Gifts were usually presented to the
"new man" entering the family after this.
      Among the women, the adults formed a circle and the new woman walked
around the circle stopping in front of each adult who had a suggestion and a
story.  The mother or "Aunt" of the "Girl-becoming-Woman" would bestow the
name at the end.  The results of the two female ceremonies was "Wind in the
Trees Woman" and "Looks East Woman".  Both very emotional namings.
      I received my names by general usage, the one replacing the earlier
name. Often times the name marks a major screw-up unfortunately witnessed by
your "brothers".  My current name was the result of a premature discharge of
my Sharps rifle after a long sneak up on a small herd of buffalo bulls on
the South Dakota prairie.  I would rather my camp name recorded a work of
prowess but, unfortunately, I am due to remain:

      "Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber


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<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D930155100-01122000>I=20
remember asking this question a while ago Frank, and was told the =
same=20
thing.   Names are given, not chosen.   A friend of =
mine=20
will probably be called Wrong Way for a while, least until he gets a new =

name.    Something about going to Lincon from Kansas =
City, by way=20
a Des Moines.  =3D).    And he wasn't exactly =
pleased=20
with it much either.  Probably why we still call him=20
that.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D930155100-01122000>So=20
far, I've managed to avoid embarassing myself too much, and haven't =
earned a=20
name yet.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D930155100-01122000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D930155100-01122000>Todd</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  [e-mail]=20
  [mailto:[e-mail]]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Larry=20
  Huber<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 30, 2000 1:00 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  [e-mail]<BR><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Camp=20
  names<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Camp names can be =
given=20
  formally in a ceremony or naturally by common usage.  You're not =
supposed=20
  to have to like your common-usage name.  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    In the circle =
of=20
  "skinners" our family traveled in, we evolved a "naming ceremony" for =
young=20
  people of a certain age.  Among males it was generally the =
celebration of=20
  the thirteenth birthday.  Among females (who mature earlier) it =
was done=20
  when thought appropriate by the Women's Society. On the two occasions =
of=20
  female naming I participated in, it involved a passing and =
progression. =20
  One young woman taking over the family after the death of her father =
and the=20
  other woman leaving to attend college.  In both genders it often =
involved=20
  much emotion.  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    The young males =
endured a=20
  "gauntlet".  They had to proceed slowly down two parallel lines =
of adults=20
  who would step out one at a time and speak on the observations of the =
growth=20
  of the "boy- becoming-man" and suggest a name.  The adult would =
step back=20
  into line, often delivering the boy a whack on the bottom as he passed =
to the=20
  next adult.  At the end of the line was the boy's father who =
considered=20
  the names proposed and declared the final name the young man would be =
known=20
  as.  Gifts were usually presented to the "new man" entering the =
family=20
  after this.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Among the women, =
the adults=20
  formed a circle and the new woman walked around the circle stopping in =
front=20
  of each adult who had a suggestion and a story.  The mother or =
"Aunt" of=20
  the "Girl-becoming-Woman" would bestow the name at the end.  The =
results=20
  of the two female ceremonies was "Wind in the Trees Woman" and "Looks =
East=20
  Woman".  Both very emotional namings.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    I received my =
names by general=20
  usage, the one replacing the earlier name. Often times the name marks =
a major=20
  screw-up unfortunately witnessed by your "brothers".  My current =
name was=20
  the result of a premature discharge of my Sharps rifle after a long =
sneak up=20
  on a small herd of buffalo bulls on the South Dakota prairie.  I =
would=20
  rather my camp name recorded a work of prowess but, unfortunately, I =
am due to=20
  remain:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    =
"Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry=20
  Huber</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> <SPAN=20
id=3D__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Beer / Native Drinks (Now Reindeer)
Date: 30 Nov 2000 20:32:33 EST

[e-mail] writes:

> Funk and Wagnalls New Standard Encyclopedia under Reindeer : (Rangifr
tarandus) a species of deer, native of the northern parts of Europe, Asia, and
>  America...>>

I don't want to start a huge argument. I said that Reindeer are old world,
which does not mean just Europe. Biologically or in evolution when we say Old
World it includes Eurasia and Africa. However, I did not consider small
remnant reindeer herds along the coast in Greenland, which is considered new
world by some. Reindeer have been brought as domesticated animals in Canada
and Alaska. The Greenland Reindeer also referred to as the Greenland Caribou
is Rangifer tarandus and are considered same species as those in northern
Europe all the way across to Siberia. In the rest of the New World (North
America) we have two species of Caribou the Woodland Caribou, Rangifer caribou
, and the Barren Ground Caribou, Rangifer arcticus. Both of these are larger
than the Reindeer of the Old World, which have long been domesticated there.

YMOS
Ghosting Wolf
Wildlife Biologist

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Makin Meat
Date: 30 Nov 2000 22:44:11 EST


The Drive

I left base camp around 7:45am and immediately ran into a major traffic jam=20
trying to get over the I-205 bridge. It took over an hour to get out of=20
Portland and reminded me of just one of the reasons I like being in the=20
woods.=20

The Weather

It poured down rain till about Hood River where it turned to snow! Near=20
blizzard like 'til past Walla Walla, and then just fog and rain. Got up in=20
country about three in the afternoon, just in time for the storm to catch me=
.

Got Close

Near Camp Wooten I passed a couple deer (does) down in a meadow by the=20
Tucannon River. I parked the rig, grabbed my gear, and did a big circle to=20
get down wind and below them. Snowing very hard as I worked up close. At=20
about 75yards, the snowing become so hard I couldn't even see the deer. When=
=20
the snow cleared a bit, they were gone.

The Camp

It looked like a cold, wet, and miserable night, 'till I spotted a lean-to=20
like log enclosure, over a picnic table at the Wooten Camp ground. Eureka!=20
Moved my gear out of the truck, and built my nest on the picnic table. Prime=
d=20
and shot my rifle=E2=80=A6.couldn't believe it went off with every thing bei=
ng so wet!

Despair!

Dug through my stuff and realized I left my jug of Jack Daniel's at home=E2=
=80=A6..Oh=20
despair.  After a cold ham and cheese sandwich, I turned in for the night. I=
t=20
snowed untill about mid-night, then turned to a hard, cold rain.

The Hunt

Long before daylight, I was up and at the meadow. The road back down the hil=
l=20
was pure ice and very spooky. As I eased into the woods, I spotted five deer=
=20
in the clearing and took over 30 minutes to close to within range. As the=20
lead doe fed clear of the brush, at 75 yards, off hand, the hammer fell.=20

The Shot

The 50cal, patched round ball, broke her near leg, took both lungs, clipped=20
the heart, and stopped at the skin on the far side, Still, the deer ran over=
=20
75 yards across the meadow, and leaped off the embankment for the river. She=
=20
was dead when she hit the water.=20

I'm Outta Here

I pulled the beautiful whitetail deer up on to dry ground and had the=20
good/sad feeling of a hunter. My hands had stopped shaking by the time I had=
=20
her field dressed. With the weather being so crazy, (near 40 degrees now) I=20
decided to bail, and I was home by 2PM.

http:// members.aol.com/swcushing/makinmeat.jpg

Ymos,
Magpie

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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Makin Meat
Date: 30 Nov 2000 19:53:54 -0800

Congrats Magpie.... hopefully, some of that will rub off on me <G>

Headed back out in the morning with my 14 yr old son to see what we can find...

Regards

Lee Newbill



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names
Date: 30 Nov 2000 23:18:54 EST


In a message dated 11/30/00 12:11:05 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< If you gave yourself a "camp name" it would, in=20

my somewhat dubious circle of "friends" , seem=20

some what egotistical & even=A0pompus and would not=20

stand for very damned long....

D. >>

Haaaaaaaa..... Don't know what all the whining is about!..... ya could be=20
called "Magpie"!

......just gotta be handsome I guess.....<VBG>

Magpie

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp names
Date: 30 Nov 2000 20:27:07 -0800




Haaaaaaaa..... Don't know what all the whining is about!..... ya could be
called "Magpie"!

......just gotta be handsome I guess.....<VBG>

Magpie


Magpie's may be handsome birds but they have disgusting habits too. You
didn't get named for their looks. <VBG> Congrats again on the meat makin.
Wish we could say the same about our Idaho jaunt.

Capt. L




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