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From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Mr. Rago & how to contact "ole Leon" from ATL Date: 01 Oct 2000 08:45:44 EDT Frank, I appreciate your response. Yours and others like it provide a weath of "how to" to beginners like myself! Thanks. Could you tell me how to contact "ole Leon"..whom you say is agreat source of good information? C. Kent "HikinOnThru" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 01 Oct 2000 07:50:40 -0600 Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> wrote: >I always heard the three top killers of voyageurs was drowning, hernias >and emphasema (sp). AAAGH! Sorry, Jim, that's one of my pet peeves. I've seen this claim in many places, too, but my research just doesn't back up hernia as a cause of death in voyageurs. In all my reading, I've come across only two cases of hernias (called 'rupture' back then), both non-fatal. The first was a mangeur du lard, in his first season, just a short distance out of Lachine (near Montreal)--he was sent home. The second was an experienced voyageur, who was strongly suspected by his boss of malingering. The two main causes of death amongst voyageurs seem to have been drowning and starvation, with disease and murder/fatal accidents (not drowning) trailing behind. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Rago & how to contact "ole Leon" from ATL Date: 01 Oct 2000 10:42:54 -0400 C. Kent, Email me off line and I will give you his phone number. As soon as CVA updates their webpage Leon will have a picture and a bio. featured on it. He also writes for a few outdoor mags. He knows his stuff when it comes to blackpowder. Frank V. Rago ikon@mindspring.com > Frank, > > I appreciate your response. Yours and others like it provide a weath of "how > to" to beginners like myself! Thanks. > > Could you tell me how to contact "ole Leon"..whom you say is agreat source of > good information? > > C. Kent > "HikinOnThru" > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Industrial Revolution Date: 01 Oct 2000 16:53:21 EDT harddog@mediaone.net writes: > Yes, you are correct that the Industrial Revolution was underway during the > fur trade era. It spread here from England and Europe. I just took exception > with the old notion that we can credit Eli Whitney with the actual > development of interchangeable parts. Randy, Whitney is credited with the "idea" of a uniformity system, aka the Whitney system. It dealt with much more than just interchangeable parts. Whitney, North, and Hall all achieved parts interchangeability in their military contracts. The title which has been accorded to Whitney is "The Father of our Mass Production Methods." An early writer states........there have not been wanting persons who have endeavored to take from Mr. Whitney, the credit of originating the uniformity system and making it a practical success at the beginning of this century, thus leading the van of progress of the mechanical arts, and laying the foundations for the enormous industry development of the ninteenth century. A letter to Mr. Wolcott, then Sec'y of the Treasury, May, 1798, contains the important paragraph--"I am persuaded that machinery moved by water power adapted to this business would greatly diminish the labor and facilitate the manufacture of this article (muskets). Machines for forging, rolling, floating, boring, grinding, polishing, etc., may all be made use of to advantage." All work prior to that time was achieved by individual gunsmiths handmaking each part, or lots of parts, and hand assembling them into muskets or pistols. Nothing could be interchanged. Up to this point, the manufacture of military firearms in quantity had not been undertaken in this country. The arms used in the Rev. war had been obtained from France. There were no skilled workmen in this country to undertake the task of producing large quantities of firearms. Both North and Hall presented guns with interchangeable parts around 181?. They were jig filed, but made in the conventional manner of the time. They were built from arsenal supplied "pattern" guns, which were not uniform in themselves. A common ploy was to order the pattern guns in lots of ten, so that they could find at least one gun that the parts would interchange with. Whitney's system was not fully implemented in the firearms industry until around 1850, by which time the required machinery which could be operated by unskilled labor was in wide usage. As an aside, concerning the "browning" of Northwest Trade guns, I ran across a blurb which stated that the Model 1822 was the first US musket to be browned, though this browning treatment had been applied to both rifles and pistols prior to its use on this musket. The method was unsuccessful and was discontinued. Those arms made prior to 1831 are referred to as "model 1822 browned" and those made subsequent to 1831 are referred to as "model 1822 bright." Whitney also engineered the brass replacement pan to combat the erosion that was being experienced with those locks using steel pans. For a complete history of early US contract firearms building, and more on Whitney, refer to "The Whitney Firearms" by Claud Fuller including an account of our early contract system, and the other So-called Private Armorers--Simeon North, Lemeul Pomeroy, Nathan Starr, Asa Waters, and Henry Deringer. It was published in 1946, and is rare and pricey now, but it contains tons of facsimiles of original military contracts and letters. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Industrial revolution - interchangeable parts Date: 01 Oct 2000 18:04:43 -0500 Dave, For all that you have said, Eli Whitney did not achieve interchangeability of parts with his government contracts for muskets. Did he institute a method of making musket parts by water powered machines? Yes! Did he make muskets for the government that had interchangeable parts? No! As I said before he talked a good game about interchangeable parts for muskets. This talk and the fact that the Secretary of the Treasury, Oliver Wolcott, was a fellow Yale graduate and personal friend and Thomas Jefferson was a personal friend probably got him the contract to produce 10,000 muskets for the government. This was the largest contract awarded at the time and Whitney had no experience as a gunmaker nor did he have any facility at all to produce muskets. Whitney's "new system", (1799), was based on division of labor and had been used for many years in Europe before Whitney ever mentioned it on this continent. The concept of "division of Labor" was discussed by Adam Smith in his book "Wealth of Nations" published in 1776. Whitneys new system used filing jigs and drilling templates, but did not produce muskets that had interchangeable parts. Tests have shown that if you randomly take 10 muskets produced by Whitney, very few if any of the parts will interchange. Arms historians feel that true interchangeability of parts did not become fact until 1827 at the highly mechanized Harpers Ferry Arsenal. This is two years after Eli Whitney died. True interchangeability of parts depends on percision machines of which Eli Whitney had none. Even the percision Whitney milling machine that he is credited with inventing was not made until after his death and then by his two nephews and his son Eli Whitney II. The whole idea for the percision milling machine was stolen from Simeon North's gun factory and Eli Whitney only made some improvements in design. His whole system should be classified a failure because his contract was for 10,000 muskets to be produced and delivered in 28 months and Whitney finally delivered the final shipment of the 10,000 muskets some ten years after the signing of the contract. The payment for the contract was $134,000.00 of which Whitney profited only $2,500.00. If Whitney hadn't have been personal friends with the Secretary of the Treasurey, Oliver Wolcott and also Thomas Jefferson, he probably would have been thrown in prison for defrauding the government. Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: here too Date: 01 Oct 2000 18:23:05 -0700 On Sat, 30 September 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote: > Hi Lanny what history list in addition to this AMM list are you talking > about? Club membership is one thing. Hawk's experience as you acknowledge > that supercedes that. Are those who went to Fort Union back on the list > yet? Did you go? Understanding the Metis is understanding the cornerstone > of gaining an understanding the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. > > Is Randy from Fort Union Trading Post still on this list? And findly where > is Buck? > > > Old Walt lurking in his Badgerhole _____________________________________________________ I believe Randy is from Ft. Union area, Buck is from Green Mountain Colo. - should have gotten home last night from a long deserved vacation, first one his wife said that they had together in 10 years. I'm surprised he still able to walk being the case, she's a good shot and swings a mean frying pan. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@favorites.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 01 Oct 2000 07:34:51 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C02B7A.15788BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you agree that the knife = should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it to hold it under the = belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep hearing how you can tuck it = under and it will not fall out, but it does not stay for me without = being tied on in some way. =20 =20 To clarify, the knife does not fall out of the sheath but the sheath = does not stay under a leather belt without a thong or tie worth beans. = As to the Indians I believe they used neck sheaths as much as putting = them in a belt. =20 As to the hat I can agree that the fit can make a lot of difference but = my money still goes that anybody who kept their hat long did it with a = stampede strap, whether Miller shows them or not. Call it experimental = history. =20 =20 Regards WY ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C02B7A.15788BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Maybe I should leave this alone but = Mike if you=20 agree that the knife should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it = to hold=20 it under the belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep hearing = how you=20 can tuck it under and it will not fall out, but it does not stay for me = without=20 being tied on in some way. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To clarify, the knife does not fall out = of the=20 sheath but the sheath does not stay under a leather belt without a = thong =20 or tie worth beans. As to the Indians I believe they used neck = sheaths as=20 much as putting them in a belt. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to the hat I can agree that the fit = can make a=20 lot of difference but my money still goes that anybody who kept their = hat long=20 did it with a stampede strap, whether Miller shows them or not. = Call it=20 experimental history. <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>Regards</DIV> <DIV>WY</DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C02B7A.15788BC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 01 Oct 2000 22:20:53 -0600 --------------C44E3E525B0B0833CBB55921 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn, I guess I tie (pardon the pun) tthe two together. In days past, when I had a knife and the sheath fall out, most of the time the knife came out too. Tension between the body and sash or belt with the shealth is supposed to hold it in place. But bending over, getting on horses and innumerable other situations helps work the shealth free. That is why I use a small tie on sheath, it helps with both problems. A tie is a small detail when it came to water colors and pencil drawings, which I think was just left out or covered up. I guess the assumption that Indians used to keep knives in place without wangs might need more looking into. George Caltin ( "Letters and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of North American Indians" volume one, figure 99) shows a page of detailed drawings of knives, hawks and clubs. One of the few that you will find. He draws two knives at the top of the page and one of them has leather shealth (with the hair still on) and a small tie to the side. My comments were only to be a help with a problem we all face at some time. As far as hats staying on: it has taken me over two years to get my felt, wide brim hat to stay on. And I still haven't figured out if the hat molded to my head or my head to the hat. But I still use a leather wang on that too. Tall horses or sloping hill sides always gets the best of me when it comes to hats and other misc. things. mike. Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you agree that the knife > should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it to hold it under the > belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep hearing how you can tuck > it under and it will not fall out, but it does not stay for me without > being tied on in some way. To clarify, the knife does not fall out of > the sheath but the sheath does not stay under a leather belt without a > thong or tie worth beans. As to the Indians I believe they used neck > sheaths as much as putting them in a belt. As to the hat I can agree > that the fit can make a lot of difference but my money still goes that > anybody who kept their hat long did it with a stampede strap, whether > Miller shows them or not. Call it experimental history. RegardsWY --------------C44E3E525B0B0833CBB55921 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Wynn, I guess I tie (pardon the pun) tthe two together. In days past, when I had a knife and the sheath fall out, most of the time the knife came out too. Tension between the body and sash or belt with the shealth is supposed to hold it in place. But bending over, getting on horses and innumerable other situations helps work the shealth free. That is why I use a small tie on sheath, it helps with both problems. A tie is a small detail when it came to water colors and pencil drawings, which I think was just left out or covered up. I guess the assumption that Indians used to keep knives in place without wangs might need more looking into. George Caltin ( "Letters and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of North American Indians" volume one, figure 99) shows a page of detailed drawings of knives, hawks and clubs. One of the few that you will find. He draws two knives at the top of the page and one of them has leather shealth (with the hair still on) and a small tie to the side. My comments were only to be a help with a problem we all face at some time. As far as hats staying on: it has taken me over two years to get my felt, wide brim hat to stay on. And I still haven't figured out if the hat molded to my head or my head to the hat. But I still use a leather wang on that too. Tall horses or sloping hill sides always gets the best of me when it comes to hats and other misc. things. mike. Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style> Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you agree that the knife should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it to hold it under the belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep hearing how you can tuck it under and it will not fall out, but it does not stay for me without being tied on in some way. To clarify, the knife does not fall out of the sheath but the sheath does not stay under a leather belt without a thong or tie worth beans. As to the Indians I believe they used neck sheaths as much as putting them in a belt. As to the hat I can agree that the fit can make a lot of difference but my money still goes that anybody who kept their hat long did it with a stampede strap, whether Miller shows them or not. Call it experimental history. RegardsWY</blockquote> </body> </html> --------------C44E3E525B0B0833CBB55921-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 01 Oct 2000 20:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Need to clarify my earlier post. The belt or sash goes through a slit in the rawhide sheath and OVER the sheathed knife. The slit holds the sheath and the belt/sash maintains tension/pressure over the blade. Twarn't a minor detail I left out; sorry. --- Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> wrote: > Wynn, > I guess I tie (pardon the pun) tthe two > together. In days past, when > I had > a knife and the sheath fall out, most of the time > the knife came out > too. Tension between the body and sash or belt with > the shealth is > supposed > to hold it in place. But bending over, getting on > horses and innumerable > > other situations helps work the shealth free. That > is why I use a small > tie on sheath, it helps with both problems. A tie is > a small detail when > it came > to water colors and pencil drawings, which I think > was just left out or > covered > up. > I guess the assumption that Indians used to keep > knives in place > without wangs might need more looking into. George > Caltin ( "Letters > and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of > North American > Indians" volume one, figure 99) shows a page of > detailed drawings of > knives, > hawks and clubs. One of the few that you will find. > He draws two knives > at > the top of the page and one of them has leather > shealth (with the hair > still on) and a > small tie to the side. > My comments were only to be a help with a > problem we all face at > some time. > As far as hats staying on: it has taken me over two > years to get my > felt, wide brim > hat to stay on. And I still haven't figured out if > the hat molded to my > head or my > head to the hat. But I still use a leather wang on > that too. Tall horses > or sloping > hill sides always gets the best of me when it comes > to hats and other > misc. things. > > mike. > > Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > > Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you > agree that the knife > > should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it > to hold it under the > > belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep > hearing how you can tuck > > it under and it will not fall out, but it does not > stay for me without > > being tied on in some way. To clarify, the knife > does not fall out of > > the sheath but the sheath does not stay under a > leather belt without a > > thong or tie worth beans. As to the Indians I > believe they used neck > > sheaths as much as putting them in a belt. As to > the hat I can agree > > that the fit can make a lot of difference but my > money still goes that > > anybody who kept their hat long did it with a > stampede strap, whether > > Miller shows them or not. Call it experimental > history. RegardsWY > ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 01 Oct 2000 22:16:15 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C02BF5.37124520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you agree that the knife should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it to hold it under the belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep hearing how you can tuck it under and it will not fall out, but it does not stay for me without being tied on in some way. To clarify, the knife does not fall out of the sheath but the sheath does not stay under a leather belt without a thong or tie worth beans. As to the Indians I believe they used neck sheaths as much as putting them in a belt. As to the hat I can agree that the fit can make a lot of difference but my money still goes that anybody who kept their hat long did it with a stampede strap, whether Miller shows them or not. Call it experimental history. Regards WY No reason to leave this alone. IÆm not up to arguing. I have learned over time what it takes to keep my belt knife where I want it. And on a regular everyday basis the knife stays put in raw hide covered with brain tan moose. In wearing a sash over the last ten years or so has given me the time to figure out how to tuck the knife sheath through one of the two wraps around of the sash and twist the knife sheath over the other sash wrap and lock it under the other one. Try running with a neck sheath or up on horse back bouncing around. Could be hard on teeth. I think neck sheaths were tucked inside shirts. When worn on the out side it was parade rest. Rough movement would not swing it up to hit you in the face. Out here we call straps like that chokers. I have been around horsemen all my life and I have never know one to wear one. A good part of keeping your hat on beside a good fit is holding you head right. Mine feels like a helmet. I use it to protect my face. Of course I am talking Montana and Alaska here because I have never ridden in any other place. I donÆt doubt that they were never used. Just never did need one. Sometime a feller looses his hat. Most of the time he can go back and get it. Wind and all. Take care if you use one. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C02BF5.37124520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <link rel=3DFile-List href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C02BF4.A9E75AA0">  <style>  </style>  </head> <body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=3DSection1> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> Maybe I should = leave this alone but Mike if you agree that the knife should stay in the belt but = you put a thong on it to hold it under the belt you have not agreed with = Walt. I keep hearing how you can tuck it under and it will not fall out, but it = does not stay for me without being tied on in some = way. <o:p></o:p></= p> <o:p></o:p></= p> To clarify, the = knife does not fall out of the sheath but the sheath does not stay under a = leather belt without a thong or tie worth beans. As to the Indians I believe they used neck sheaths as much as putting them in a belt. = <o:p></o:p></= p> <o:p></o:p></= p> As to the hat I = can agree that the fit can make a lot of difference but my money still goes that = anybody who kept their hat long did it with a stampede strap, whether Miller = shows them or not. Call it experimental history. = <o:p></o:p> </fo= nt><o:p></o:p></= p> Regards</f= ont><o:p></o:p></= p> WY<= font color=3Dnavy><o:p></o:p></= p> <!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> No= reason to leave this alone. = I’m not up to arguing. I have learned = over time what it takes to keep my belt knife where I want it. And on a regular everyday basis the knife stays put = in raw hide covered with brain tan moose. In wearing a sash over the last ten years or so has given me the = time to figure out how to tuck the knife sheath through one of the two wraps = around of the sash and twist the knife sheath over the other sash wrap and lock it = under the other one. = <o:p></o:p> <!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Tr= y running with a neck sheath or up on horse back bouncing around. Could be hard on teeth. I think neck sheaths were = tucked inside shirts. When worn on the = out side it was parade rest. Rough = movement would not swing it up to hit you in the = face.<o:p></o:p> <!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Ou= t here we call straps like that chokers. I have been around horsemen all my life and I have never know one = to wear one. A good part of = keeping your hat on beside a good fit is holding you head right. Mine feels like a helmet. I use it to protect my = face. Of course I am talking Montana = and Alaska here because I have never ridden in any other place. = <o:p></o:p> <!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> I = don’t doubt that they were never used. Just never did need one. Sometime a feller looses his hat. Most of the time he can go back and get it. Wind and all.<o:p></o:p> <!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Ta= ke care if you use one.<o:p></o:p> <!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Wa= lt<o:p></o:p> Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837<o:p></o:p> Yellowsto= ne Canoe Camp<o:p></o:p= > On the = Lewis & Clark Trail<o:= p></o:p> Park = City, Montana <o:p></o:p= > <= span class=3DEmailStyle15><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p><= /p> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C02BF5.37124520-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: whose list? Date: 02 Oct 2000 07:32:47 -0500 No problemo here. I had thought that this list belonged to the AMM. I was mistaken. First time in my life. My contributions will continue to be few, however, as when it comes to RMFT my knowledge is limited. I do enjoy reading the input and learning. The list has changed some of my opinions on various items. I won't use some of the "trigger" words because of fear of starting another avalanche. When the time comes to attend an r'vous that is strick AMM style juried, I guess I'll have to suffer a tired back without benefit of a chair. But where I won't get my hair lifted for doin' it, I guarantee I will have somethin' to set the old bones in. Regards to this e-campfire, Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HawkerAmm@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Unsubscribe MtMan List Date: 02 Oct 2000 08:45:50 EDT Dean, Please unsubscribe. Thank you. YF&B, Bob ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> Subject: MtMan-List: TENT FOR SALE Date: 02 Oct 2000 14:46:18 -0400 I have a PANTHER PRIMITIVE 12'x14' wall tent (5' walls) for sale if anyone is interested. It's been used approximately 4 times. Made of SUNFORAGER MARINE CANVASS. In their latest catalog, it lists for $455, plus $38 for the sod cloth. I'm selling mine for $375 plus shipping (approx. 60#). Anyone interested, contact me off list or call me at 304-445.2932. Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: OT - Muzzleloader Oil-Grease Date: 02 Oct 2000 14:36:51 -0500 Why do you think this is off topic?? It's the kind of stuff we like to see. Oh well. OK, my answer is spit. Plain old mouth moisture. I carry a canteen of water with me on the firing line and on survival walks so that my mouth stays moist. The first thing I do is put a patch in my mouth between shots so that it's good and wet when I need it. It also helps to have a cleaning rod with oiled cleaning patch and swab the bore between shots. I use any machine oil (3 in 1, WD-40, or even 2 stroke motor oil.) The only other thing might be to take a bore brush to the bore after maybe 10 shots. Never had a problem. HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: a contact for John Luzader? Date: 02 Oct 2000 20:22:33 GMT Gentlemen & Ladies, Does anyone out there know how to get ahold of Mr. John Luzader? I worked with him in the trade room at Bent's this summer and wanted to get some info from him...any help is appreciated- Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Fluhmann" <jfluhman@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: OT - Muzzleloader Oil-Grease Date: 01 Oct 2000 17:10:23 -0500 Hey Henry ol' friend, I've seen ya shoot and you suck at it.......<VBG> and I know for a fact that it ain't water in that gourd of yours... just kiddin' Henry, but I just couldn't resist....... BTW...sorry that I missed you Saturday at Fort Concho.... For what it's worth, I use bees wax and olive oil for a lube and don't swab any during a shoot of about 40 shots. "Butt Ugly" John Fluhmann ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 2:36 PM > Why do you think this is off topic?? It's the kind of stuff we like to > see. Oh well. > > OK, my answer is spit. Plain old mouth moisture. I carry a canteen of > water with me on the firing line and on survival walks so that my mouth > stays moist. The first thing I do is put a patch in my mouth between shots > so that it's good and wet when I need it. It also helps to have a cleaning > rod with oiled cleaning patch and swab the bore between shots. I use any > machine oil (3 in 1, WD-40, or even 2 stroke motor oil.) The only other > thing might be to take a bore brush to the bore after maybe 10 shots. > Never had a problem. > > HBC > > ********************************** > Henry B. Crawford > Curator of History > Museum of Texas Tech University > Box 43191 > Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whose list? Date: 02 Oct 2000 18:33:00 -0700 On Mon, 02 October 2000, "Frank Fusco" wrote: > No problemo here. > I had thought that this list belonged to the AMM. I was mistaken. First > time in my life. > My contributions will continue to be few, however, as when it comes to > RMFT my knowledge is limited. I do enjoy reading the input and learning. > The list has changed some of my opinions on various items. I won't use some > of the "trigger" words because of fear of starting another avalanche. > When the time comes to attend an r'vous that is strick AMM style juried, > I guess I'll have to suffer a tired back without benefit of a chair. But > where I won't get my hair lifted for doin' it, I guarantee I will have > somethin' to set the old bones in. > Regards to this e-campfire, Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas > ---------------------- Frank, There are several that have the AMM "membership_list" and the "Hist_list" mixed up so do not feel like you where singled out. Lanney was just explaining the two differences to help with the confussion. As far as knowledge, your replies are very interesting and help with adding to the conversations, so please don't feel you lack anything and keep us informed on areas that you feel your expertise excells in. Your reply and attitude is very much needed on this list, some would just come back with off the wall remark and hurt feelings, that usually end up in a pissing contest or some dropping off the list - then everyone suffers. Thanks again Frank, I mean this. Your welcome anytime at my camp, AMM, NRA, or not. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 02 Oct 2000 18:43:25 -0700 On Sun, 01 October 2000, S Jones wrote: > Need to clarify my earlier post. The belt or sash goes > through a slit in the rawhide sheath and OVER the > sheathed knife. The slit holds the sheath and the > belt/sash maintains tension/pressure over the blade. > Twarn't a minor detail I left out; sorry. > > --- Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> wrote: > > I guess the assumption that Indians used to keep > > knives in place > > without wangs might need more looking into. George > > Caltin ( "Letters > > and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of > > North American > > Indians" volume one, figure 99) shows a page of > > detailed drawings of > > knives, > > hawks and clubs. One of the few that you will find. > > He draws two knives > > at > > the top of the page and one of them has leather > > shealth (with the hair > > still on) and a > > small tie to the side....... > > > > Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > > Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you > > agree that the knife > > > should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it > > to hold it under the > > > belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep > > hearing how you can tuck > > > it under and it will not fall out, but it does not > > stay for me without > > > being tied on in some way.......... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What Mike has written can be seen at the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chardon NE, and at the Western Museum in Durango CO, as well as in the book mentioned and in several other sources of which is the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. Have tried as suggested with the slot and finally tried and use a thong as suggested, thong works easier in removing sheath from sash when in camp or when mother nature calls. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whose list? Date: 02 Oct 2000 19:29:07 -0700 On Mon, 02 October 2000, Buck Conner wrote: > > On Mon, 02 October 2000, "Frank Fusco" wrote: > > No problemo here. > > I had thought that this list belonged to the AMM. I was mistaken. First > > time in my life. > > My contributions will continue to be few, however, as when it comes to > > RMFT my knowledge is limited. I do enjoy reading the input and learning. > > The list has changed some of my opinions on various items. I won't use some > > of the "trigger" words because of fear of starting another avalanche. > > When the time comes to attend an r'vous that is strick AMM style juried, > > I guess I'll have to suffer a tired back without benefit of a chair. But > > where I won't get my hair lifted for doin' it, I guarantee I will have > > somethin' to set the old bones in. > > Regards to this e-campfire, Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas > > ---------------------- > > Frank, > > There are several that have the AMM "membership_list" and the "Hist_list" mixed up so do not feel like you where singled out. Lanney was just explaining the two differences to help with the confussion. > > As far as knowledge, your replies are very interesting and help with adding to the conversations, so please don't feel you lack anything and keep us informed on areas that you feel your expertise excells in. > > Your reply and attitude is very much needed on this list, some would just come back with off the wall remark and hurt feelings, that usually end up in a pissing contest or some dropping off the list - then everyone suffers. > > Thanks again Frank, I mean this. Your welcome anytime at my camp, AMM, NRA, or not. > > Later, > > Barry "Buck" Conner > --------------- Well put Buck, I enjoy Frank and all the other's comments, interesting to get all the different opinions on the varied subjects. Wouldn't it be a bore if we all agreed. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gail jenner <gfiorini@sisqtel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Query: Women and guns Date: 03 Oct 2000 10:12:01 -0700 I'm looking into article ideas (on speculation at this point) on Women and Guns. Am looking for first-hand details (modern day) about women and guns, eg: hunting, use of, attitudes about. I think it might be an important kind of input regarding the positive picture of guns and women. If you have any ideas or know of anyone willing to be interviewed or profiled (WOMEN!), please email me! I appreciate it!! Thanks, Gail Gail L. Fiorini-Jenner gfiorini@sisqtel.net ACROSS THE SWEET GRASS HILLS, to be released Winter 2000 ISBN#0-88739-302-0 "Dream lofty dreams -- and as you dream, so shall you become." - John Ruskin difiorini.com - coming soon! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gail jenner <gfiorini@sisqtel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Query: women and guns, part 2 Date: 03 Oct 2000 10:13:53 -0700 Hi again! Actually, I could look at women in the past as well as present day women and guns. Any favorite women in history, besides the obvious/popular ones always mentioned? Again, thanks!! Gail -- Gail L. Fiorini-Jenner gfiorini@sisqtel.net ACROSS THE SWEET GRASS HILLS, to be released Winter 2000 ISBN#0-88739-302-0 "Dream lofty dreams -- and as you dream, so shall you become." - John Ruskin difiorini.com - coming soon! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Bitterroot Valley Fire pic Date: 03 Oct 2000 13:41:52 -0500 To see an awesome pic of the Bitterroot Fire, go to: http://www.misoulian.com/bonus/elkfire.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 03 Oct 2000 17:01:52 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_015C_01C02D5B.A090EC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I keep hearing how you can tuck it under and it will not fall out, but = it does not stay for me without being tied on in some way. =20 =20 To clarify, the knife does not fall out of the sheath but the sheath = does not stay under a leather belt without a thong or tie worth beans. = As to the Indians I believe they used neck sheaths as much as putting = them in a belt. =20 A knife in a braintanned buckskin sheath tucked in a sash will not = normally slip from the sash. I have not found a good proper period way to keep a heavy leather = sheath from falling out from=20 under a leather belt, other than tying it on with a whang.=20 J.D. ------=_NextPart_000_015C_01C02D5B.A090EC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I keep hearing how you can tuck it = under and it=20 will not fall out, but it does not stay for me without being tied on = in some=20 way. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To clarify, the knife does not fall = out of the=20 sheath but the sheath does not stay under a leather belt without a = thong =20 or tie worth beans. As to the Indians I believe they used neck = sheaths=20 as much as putting them in a belt. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A knife in a braintanned buckskin = sheath tucked=20 in a sash will not normally slip from the sash.</DIV> <DIV>I have not found a good proper period = way to keep=20 a heavy leather sheath from falling out from </DIV> <DIV>under a leather=20 belt, other than tying it on with a whang. </DIV> <DIV>J.D.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_015C_01C02D5B.A090EC60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Query: Women and guns Date: 03 Oct 2000 17:09:58 -0500 > I'm looking into article ideas (on speculation at this point) on Women > and Guns. Am looking for first-hand details (modern day) about women and > guns, eg: hunting, use of, attitudes about. I think it might be an > important kind of input regarding the positive picture of guns and > women. If you have any ideas or know of anyone willing to be interviewed > or profiled (WOMEN!), please email me! I appreciate it!! > > There is a book avalalble through the NRA. The entitled "WOMEN AND GUNS" written by a woman, Paxton Quigly. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: whose list? Date: 03 Oct 2000 18:37:38 -0500 Chonco Smith wrote, <Wouldn't it be a bore if we all agreed.> Now jussa minit there, I'll debate that............ :-) Cheers, Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whose list? Date: 03 Oct 2000 19:39:39 -0400 I'll tell you boys how to settle this. Just agree with me, cause I am seldom wrong...<G> Hell, just ask me. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: women and guns Date: 03 Oct 2000 18:53:46 -0500 Gail Since you asked. I'll give you a brief bit about my woman [wife] and her experience with guns. She came from a family that never had contact with firearms or hunting, in fact she was somewhat anti-gun but not overtly. I have always hunted and owned firearms. About 1970 we moved to a town near Friendship, Indiana, the home of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association. I had had an interest in old guns before moving there but the opportunity to develop an active interest in muzzle loaders was more than I could resist. Soon after our move we were down at the Friendship range almost every weekend. I would shoot and commiserate with the old timers and ml greats. Wife would sit with other women and wait. That did not last long. One day she asked me to get her a rifle so she could shoot too. I asked why she wanted to get involved in "my" sport. [that was a mistake]. She promptly advised me she was tired of sitting watching me have a good time. Either I got her a rifle or I give up ml shooting and we start doing something else she could participate in. She had her own rifle very soon after that. It was a Hopkins & Allen underhammer buggy rifle. Lots of frustrating times teaching her how to shoot as she was right-handed and left eyed, had a tendency to put her head completely over stock to aim with left eye. That did not work. So we put a patch over left eye and trained on right eye. She would get a lot of kidding for using that short barreled simple rifle.......until the scores got posted. Later we had target rifles made up, one for her and one for me. As the years went by and we competed in numerous shoots around the country, plus the NMLRA championships she picked up tons more trophies and medals than I ever dreamed of. She has won and placed in national matches, I never have. In additon to the target rifles she now has a very fine custom made .40 cal. rifle built to her proportions. We have hunted opening days together for the muzzle loading season for almost 30 years. This year we will break that tradition for a variety of reasons. Last year she got two deer on opening day of the ml season. Proud times here. Though not an active competitor any more she has accomplished a lot on the shooting range and at rendezvous. And I credit family participation in shooting sports [sons included] as a strong factor in more than 35 years of marriage. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bitterroot Valley Fire pic Date: 03 Oct 2000 18:21:15 -0700 (PDT) --- Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> wrote: > To see an awesome pic of the Bitterroot Fire, go to: > > http://www.misoulian.com/bonus/elkfire.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html The bottom link has the correct spelling, the missing 's' in missoulian http://www.missoulian.com/bonus/elkfire.html ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Query: Women and guns Date: 03 Oct 2000 20:52:21 -0500 Gail, Click on http://www.gunhoo.com/ Scroll down and click on "For Women" in the right hand column. The For Women web site has many links that promotes women and guns, self defense, shooting sports, etc. There's a link to Paxton Quigley's web page. Mr. Dearing mentioned her in a previous post. Another woman you must check out is Sue King. She received the prestigious Sybil Ludington Award this year from the NRA. Mrs. King is also a member of the Texas State Rifle Association, is very active in educating women about guns, and is a fine writer. Learn more about Mrs. King at http://tsra.com then click on Women's issues. Hope this helps, Victoria On Tue, 03 Oct 2000 10:12:01 -0700 gail jenner <gfiorini@sisqtel.net> writes: > I'm looking into article ideas (on speculation at this point) on > Women > and Guns. Am looking for first-hand details (modern day) about women > and > guns, eg: hunting, use of, attitudes about. I think it might be an > important kind of input regarding the positive picture of guns and > women. If you have any ideas or know of anyone willing to be > interviewed > or profiled (WOMEN!), please email me! I appreciate it!! > > Thanks, > > Gail > > > > Gail L. > Fiorini-Jenner gfiorini@sisqtel.net > ACROSS THE SWEET GRASS HILLS, to be released Winter 2000 > ISBN#0-88739-302-0 > "Dream lofty dreams -- and as you dream, so shall you become." - > John Ruskin > difiorini.com - coming soon! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bitterroot Valley Fire pic Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:19:41 -0700 That is one spectacular fire and picture. Looks like something from the movie "Bambi". Just more frightening. Thanks for the web sight. Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "no" <no@gpcom.net> Subject: MtMan-List: more knives Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:10:47 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C02D86.C85A42C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To the List I have a knife blade that I picked up, it did not have a = handle, the blade is about 5 inches long and a tapered tang about 2 1/2 = inches.The blade ia stamped W.GREVES & SONS. I was wondering if = W.GREVES&SONS made knives for the fur trade? I tried to send a picture = attachment but it would not go through. Frank N ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C02D86.C85A42C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8> <DIV> <DIV>To the List</DIV> <DIV><FONT=20 size=3D2> &nbs= p; =20 I have a knife blade that I picked up, it did not have a handle, the = blade is=20 about 5 inches long and a tapered tang about 2 1/2 inches.The blade ia = stamped=20 W.GREVES & SONS. I was wondering if W.GREVES&SONS made knives = for the=20 fur trade? I tried to send a picture attachment but it would not go=20 through. Frank=20 N</DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C02D86.C85A42C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: pemmican Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:36:29 MDT angela g. or anyone; looking for date the hudson bay co. started to sell pemmican to europ. armys. also firm up about when hudson bay started useing pemmican in their post systems. this is for news letter for hiverant metis(next) ponyrider preserve-research metis history bring may-tee and friends of metis into traditions of the hiverants _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: hte ol fox Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:50:33 MDT sorry' i have limited space on comput. also handle metis e.mail. i will be back in camp even if only in the shadows. didn.t know i was in camp with a door. ponyrider preserve-research metis history bring may tee and friends of metis into traditions of hiverants metis _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 03 Oct 2000 23:11:32 MDT there are many differant way to slip sheath into a sash. the metis have long .made sheaths for sashs. most of the have drops of beads or quill work for the bottom and space then top, this is to help the balance of sheath also some of the old sheaths withe sash drops also have a loop in back . felt hats with strings to help hold on. the old nick name choke strings has a reason. make sure that the string are brake able if they get caught in trees. there are some drawings (?) of trappers with hate strings.but is this a new comer to our western big winds? how many photo,s of old timers with choke strings on.? iv been around felt all live time and choke strings are for new hats just screw the hat down harder, But then you"ll look like me no hair ponyrider preserve_research metis history bring ma tee and friends into tradiion of the hiverant metis _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 04 Oct 2000 10:13:14 EDT In a message dated 10/4/00 1:12:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, havenotmetis@hotmail.com writes: << the old nick name choke strings has a reason. make sure that the string are brake able if they get caught in trees. >> I put the "choke" string in back of my head for just that reason and it sits under my hair so it really shows vary little. All this talk of knives in sheaths with or without something to tie them in reminds me of a woods walk at an Eastern a few years back. A group of period correct eastern long hunters were in a group one station behind mine group. One of the guys had a good size woodsmans knife in a sheath that was tucked into a belt and secured to the belt. But the knife was not tied or secured to the sheath in anyway. Some how in the process of loading his gun, bending over or done the knife and sheath tilted hilt to ground and as he walked along it feel out of the sheath. The knife hit the ground hilt first blade up with the tip of the blade pointing up at his calf as he took a step forward. Luckily in my group was a paramedic and a Viet Nam trained nurse so all he lost was a day at the event but in the woods away from help that would have been bad. I make sure I always make my knives secure. The same goes for my hawk, one of the only early casualties in Sullivans campaign against the Senecas was a soldier that fell back on the hawk blade he had stuck in his belt. He did not have a sheath. And there is on record an incident where Rogers Rangers got chewed out for not using their sheaths on their hawks for safety during travel, so I always use one. Y.H.O.S. C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Karl Kroll" <karl@intercompco.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #639 Date: 04 Oct 2000 09:17:18 -0500 There is a very good book for beginning buckskinners titled, "Back to Basics" (Readers Digest Books) It is one inch thick and has many pictures/drawings, explaining how to make leather products, raise crops, smoke meats, make wine, cooking, etc. I read and enjoyed this book before I had ever even heard of Buckskinning. Karl ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Billy Corgan" <drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 04 Oct 2000 14:13:50 EDT I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though that no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited its resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man naturally throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, pollution from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made technologies. It is impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and other factors, which caused a large increase in population in that area. I hope to discuss as well the positive effects of man, but it is hard to see how building up cities is in any way positive to nature. The fur trade may not be at fault for the cities, but the fur trade was a major part of industry, was it not? I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to determine what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up my mind and have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my general research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the situation from there. Thank you to those who helped me out with finding information, you have helped enlighten me about the realities of the fur trade and when I get to reading all the material in full I will hopefully have my ideas straight. Thanks again. -b _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 04 Oct 2000 15:56:25 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 11:13 AM > I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the > situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though that > no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited its > resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man naturally > throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, pollution > from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made technologies. Billy, I think what most of the participants of this list would want to see is fair shake given to how all human inhabitants of this or any continent have impacted their environment. The problem comes from our tendency to believe not only what we want but to believe what we read if it has the flavor of scholastic endevor about it. As in your pharagraph above, it seems to imply that much of what man has done to throw off the cycle of life is connected with "modern" or "white" civilization and technologies. While this is true to a great extent it sanctifies the "First Peoples" beyond their due by not addressing the negative impact those peoples have had on the environment. True, they could not make as great an impact nor as quick an impact as "white" populations and activities have, but they did not practice as good a level of stewardship as past authors have made them out to have done. This needs to be addressed as well, just to put things in a balanced perspective. Neither civilization should be elevated to "sainthood" considering what they have done in the past and to a degree continue to do in some instances. Keeping in mind that there is only archeological evidence to show the probability of it, the Indian may very well have been the force leading to the extinction of the mamoth, camel, horse and several other prey animals on this continent long before the coming of the white man. Indians also practiced some very wasteful hunting techniques such as buffalo drops where hundreds of animals are run off a cliff. With the arrival of the horse, the plains indian may have brought the buffalo close to extinction all by themselves over time had it not been for the added pressure of whites hunting them commercially just as the whites hunted beaver commercially almost to repletion. It is > impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on the Missouri and > Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and other factors, which > caused a large increase in population in that area. There was an eventual increase in population as a result of the path finding that went on during the fur trade heydays. There were never that many non indians involved though. I hope to discuss as > well the positive effects of man, but it is hard to see how building up > cities is in any way positive to nature. The fur trade may not be at fault > for the cities, but the fur trade was a major part of industry, was it not? The fur trade was a major effort to supply a commodity for a world market. It was done in a remote area with very few participants and resulted directly in only a few periferal cities like St. Louis. The goods were sent to other parts of the world. But one of the things that is often missed when considering the impact of man and particularly modern man on the environment and wildlife in particular is that a major turn around in the relative health of game populations throughout Amercia has come directly from Civilized Awareness spear headed by Sportsmen not commercial intrests. A distinction needs to be made. And credit given where due. It is generally recognized by Game Dept.s and similar agencies involved with American Wild Life that there are more animals in many animal populations today than a century or more ago. The exception of coures is the buffalo which has lost not only it's biobase but it's open range to farms in the plains states. There are still many healthy herds out west, just not possible to have the numbers that used to roam free simply from the lack of range to roam in. > I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to determine > what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up my mind and > have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my general > research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the situation > from there. I wish you luck and good hunting on finding the answers to your paper. I would hope that you do not believe everything that someone before you has written but rather find out the truth for yourself. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 04 Oct 2000 19:29:47 -0600 Billy, I agree with the good Captain. Where would the environment be now if the fires of this past summer had run wild?. If there were actualy 60 million Buffalo on the plains in 1808 what would a stampeed have done to the environment?. Most people have forgoten that we are also part of the Environment. One news report about 10 years back reported that Archiologist in central America while excavating in what they thought was Rain Forest dug below the old Growth forest only to discover the remains of an Indian corn field which had been slashed and burned 1800 years ago. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Billy Corgan" <drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade >Date: Wed, Oct 4, 2000, 12:13 PM > >I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the >situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though that >no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited its >resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man naturally >throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, pollution >from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made technologies. It is >impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on the Missouri and >Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and other factors, which >caused a large increase in population in that area. I hope to discuss as >well the positive effects of man, but it is hard to see how building up >cities is in any way positive to nature. The fur trade may not be at fault >for the cities, but the fur trade was a major part of industry, was it not? >I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to determine >what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up my mind and >have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my general >research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the situation >from there. >Thank you to those who helped me out with finding information, you have >helped enlighten me about the realities of the fur trade and when I get to >reading all the material in full I will hopefully have my ideas straight. >Thanks again. >-b >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 04 Oct 2000 23:14:12 -0500 Dear -b, aka Billy Corgan, aka Chris Riddle, aka drownyoursorrows: Who the hell are you anyway??? It seems you have determined that "man" is not part of the natural order: hence, by your reasoning, it must be true; men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Or are we all from Uranus? Nothing you've said so far suggests an open mind. Your broad statements of "fact" are unsupported by evidence. You probably get good grades in school. A know-it-all-already university student without a real email address or name doesn't warrant answers, courtesy or consideration. John... At 02:13 PM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote: >I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the >situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though >that no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited >its resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man >naturally throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, >pollution from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made >technologies. It is impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on >the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and >other factors, which caused a large increase in population in that >area. I hope to discuss as well the positive effects of man, but it is >hard to see how building up cities is in any way positive to nature. The >fur trade may not be at fault for the cities, but the fur trade was a >major part of industry, was it not? >I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to >determine what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up >my mind and have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my >general research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the >situation from there. >Thank you to those who helped me out with finding information, you have >helped enlighten me about the realities of the fur trade and when I get to >reading all the material in full I will hopefully have my ideas straight. >Thanks again. >-b "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence." Napoleon Bonaparte. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 04 Oct 2000 22:31:46 -0600 Who the hell are you anyway??? Pull your war club back John. Stand steady. Give the kid a chance to clarify himself. If you have not scared him away already Where are them boys who went off to ft union. Why are they so quiet? Walt out of his badgerhole Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 05 Oct 2000 05:00:34 -0700 On Wed, 04 October 2000, CTOAKES@aol.com wrote: > > I make sure I always make my knives secure. The same goes > for my hawk, one of the only early casualties in Sullivans campaign against > the Senecas was a soldier that fell back on the hawk blade he had stuck in > his belt. He did not have a sheath. And there is on record an incident > where Rogers Rangers got chewed out for not using their sheaths on their > hawks for safety during travel, so I always use one. > > Y.H.O.S. > > C.T. Oakes > ---------------------- If your a student of the Rogers Rangers period you'll find he required sheathes on any edged tool and secured when traveling, time was important and being held up for an injury as discribed earlier was not needed. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 05 Oct 2000 05:08:36 -0700 On Tue, 03 October 2000, "Terrance Luff" wrote: > > there are many differant way to slip sheath into a sash. the metis have long > .made sheaths for sashs. most of the have drops of beads or quill work for > the bottom and space then top, this is to help the balance of sheath also > some of the old sheaths withe sash drops also have a loop in back . felt > hats with strings to help hold on. the old nick name choke strings has a > reason. make sure that the string are brake able if they get caught in > trees. there are some drawings (?) of trappers with hate strings.but is this > a new comer to our western big winds? how many photo,s of old timers with > choke strings on.? iv been around felt all live time and choke strings are > for new hats just screw the hat down harder, But then you"ll look like me no > hair > ponyrider > > preserve_research metis history > bring ma tee and friends > into tradiion of the hiverant metis > _________________________________________________________________________ We have used one method shown below, if this works with lines on e-mail. Top ______________________ of / / sheath / ________________ / /_____\ notch that sits over belt Top ______________________ of / / sheath / ________________ / /____o\ notch that sits over belt Buck use a thong in the hole to secure to his belt Hope this works for an example In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 07:52:37 -0500 A while back on this list and currently on another there has been discussion about what grains were carried 'back then' in Rev. times or the RMFT. A few comments were made that I found confusing about what was and what wasn't. Well, after reading the comments, asking a genuine expert and some reading, I have come to a sorta-conclusion. First off, words and meanings change with time. Ethnic differences and translations can also affect how things are perceived by us looking back. Lots of confusion has revolved around the use of corn. Here's what I think: According to an early post, which I confirmed with an expert, bees did not exist in America prior to the time of Columbus. Thusly, most of the continent was almost barren plains land and all plants were far less lush than they are now. Bees introduced more vigorous pollination and made some plants, corn one of them, into something better and almost unrecognizable from its early scrawny ancestors. Of course, the bees did not instantly inhabit all of America, it took a great many years for them to become widespread. Thusly, white men traveling from the area of the original colonies most probably carried corn that we would recognize today. But those who spent time west of the big muddy more likely did not have anything so fine and had to use whatever was available. In a way both sides are right. 'They' had corn until it ran out. It may have been called wheat, or the wheat may have been called corn, I dunno. But the RMFT days was a time of change. In fact change is what brought an end to that era. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 07:13:37 -0600 Frank, I will probably be more gentle than others but I am sorry to report that there were bees. No there were not European bees. There were Bumble Bee's and probably in the neighborhood of 50+ native bees. You must also remember that there are other insects that polinate as well as bees. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> >To: "AMM" <hist_text@xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: corn >Date: Thu, Oct 5, 2000, 6:52 AM > > A while back on this list and currently on another there has been >discussion about what grains were carried 'back then' in Rev. times or the >RMFT. > A few comments were made that I found confusing about what was and what >wasn't. Well, after reading the comments, asking a genuine expert and some >reading, I have come to a sorta-conclusion. > First off, words and meanings change with time. Ethnic differences and >translations can also affect how things are perceived by us looking back. > Lots of confusion has revolved around the use of corn. > Here's what I think: According to an early post, which I confirmed with >an expert, bees did not exist in America prior to the time of Columbus. >Thusly, most of the continent was almost barren plains land and all plants >were far less lush than they are now. Bees introduced more vigorous >pollination and made some plants, corn one of them, into something better >and almost unrecognizable from its early scrawny ancestors. > Of course, the bees did not instantly inhabit all of America, it took a >great many years for them to become widespread. > Thusly, white men traveling from the area of the original colonies most >probably carried corn that we would recognize today. But those who spent >time west of the big muddy more likely did not have anything so fine and had >to use whatever was available. > In a way both sides are right. 'They' had corn until it ran out. It may >have been called wheat, or the wheat may have been called corn, I dunno. But >the RMFT days was a time of change. In fact change is what brought an end to >that era. >Frank G. Fusco >Mountain Home, Arkansas > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Monte Holder <sja028@mail.connect.more.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 08:32:07 -0500 Corn is wind pollenated as well. I don't believe bees have much to do with corn reproduction. As I understand it, the natives in Central America selectively bred a grasslike plant whose name starts with a "t" that ends up as the corn we have today. The corn seed planted by farmers today is technically pollenated by people to get the proper crosses for the hybrids. There are open pollenated varieties still that would be similar to the varieties grown back when. Monte Holder From the "corn belt" Saline Co MO "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Frank, > I will probably be more gentle than others but I am sorry to report that > there were bees. No there were not European bees. There were Bumble Bee's > and probably in the neighborhood of 50+ native bees. > You must also remember that there are other insects that polinate as well as > bees. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> > >To: "AMM" <hist_text@xmission.com> > >Subject: MtMan-List: corn > >Date: Thu, Oct 5, 2000, 6:52 AM > > > > > A while back on this list and currently on another there has been > >discussion about what grains were carried 'back then' in Rev. times or the > >RMFT. > > A few comments were made that I found confusing about what was and what > >wasn't. Well, after reading the comments, asking a genuine expert and some > >reading, I have come to a sorta-conclusion. > > First off, words and meanings change with time. Ethnic differences and > >translations can also affect how things are perceived by us looking back. > > Lots of confusion has revolved around the use of corn. > > Here's what I think: According to an early post, which I confirmed with > >an expert, bees did not exist in America prior to the time of Columbus. > >Thusly, most of the continent was almost barren plains land and all plants > >were far less lush than they are now. Bees introduced more vigorous > >pollination and made some plants, corn one of them, into something better > >and almost unrecognizable from its early scrawny ancestors. > > Of course, the bees did not instantly inhabit all of America, it took a > >great many years for them to become widespread. > > Thusly, white men traveling from the area of the original colonies most > >probably carried corn that we would recognize today. But those who spent > >time west of the big muddy more likely did not have anything so fine and had > >to use whatever was available. > > In a way both sides are right. 'They' had corn until it ran out. It may > >have been called wheat, or the wheat may have been called corn, I dunno. But > >the RMFT days was a time of change. In fact change is what brought an end to > >that era. > >Frank G. Fusco > >Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 09:43:35 EDT > Here's what I think: According to an early post, which I confirmed with > an expert, bees did not exist in America prior to the time of Columbus. Frank, Are you sure you asked this expert the proper question? The European honey bee was an introduced specie. There are many kinds of bees, hornets and wasps. They didn't all come over with the Pilgrims. > Thusly, most of the continent was almost barren plains land and all plants > were far less lush than they are now. Not even close............you know better than this if you stop and think about it. > Bees introduced more vigorous > pollination and made some plants, corn one of them, into something better > and almost unrecognizable from its early scrawny ancestors. I suggest that you reread how the birds and the bees work in nature. I think you should have had your coffee before sending this post. <G> It requires further thought on your part. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: corn & bees Date: 05 Oct 2000 09:06:14 -0500 Ole' #718 wrote, I know only what my expert told me, and he is a recognized authority. Bumble bees may have been here, he acknowledges that. But they do a very poor job of pollinating. Other insects that may pollinate also do a very poor job. I agree something did some pollinating otherwise life would not exist. Better and more vigorous pollination started when the Mayflower landed. I don't see that we are in disagreement. I jest didn't speeceefi wat kinds of bees. I ain't the eekspurt. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter <mail4dog@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: corn and bees Date: 05 Oct 2000 08:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Frank, your last statement was true enough, crops did get much better after the pilgrims landed [140 years after Columbus]because the native americans were not trained horticulturists, whereas Europeans had been farming for quite a spell, and it was experience that made the difference. Don't know what kinds of bees they brought, but since ol' Chris never landed on our continent, I have no idea what he had to do with their introduction. I sure do enjoy the result though, Dog __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 10:37:06 -0700 Frank, Lots of confusion has revolved around the use of corn. > Here's what I think: According to an early post, which I confirmed with > an expert, bees did not exist in America prior to the time of Columbus. So far your right on target. > Thusly, most of the continent was almost barren plains land and all plants > were far less lush than they are now. That may or may not be true but I don't see it that way. All plants have a unique pollination stratagy special to them. Some plants are pollinated by moths, some by butterflys, some by other indigenous insects and some by birds and mamals. Those plants that depend on an outside agent to assist in the pollination process and were compatible with the honey bee's pollination habits benefited from the introduction of european honey bees. Remember too that there are more than just the european honey bee on this continent. Bumble Bees, leaf cutter bees, etc. It was the european honey bee that was introduced. Bees introduced more vigorous > pollination and made some plants, corn one of them, into something better > and almost unrecognizable from its early scrawny ancestors. I don't know where you got your information but I believe you have been advised wrong. Having been an avid gardener and having lived in an agricultural community with farmer grandfathers, and having had some agricultural training in school I can assure you that corn and most of the other grains do not depend on nor do they utilize insects of any kind to carry out their pollination strategy's. Bee's do not pollinate corn. Corn is pollinated by a wide dispersal of pollen by air currents. The indians were great corn growers long before europeans set foot on this continent. They also had a tradition of growing special strains of corn for different uses and for hardiness in different climates varying from the tropics of South America to the high dry mountains of the west and from the upper plains states across Amercia and south into South America. They also made it a point to not plant one strain next to another one or the result would be serious cross pollination. I have had this problem with my corn growing efforts since my garden is only a 1/4 acre in size and it is hard to separate different strains with enough distance. They discribed it as "the sisters walking in the night" (better known as teepee creaping <G>). But those who spent > time west of the big muddy more likely did not have anything so fine and had > to use whatever was available. I believe I read where the Wilson Price Hunt expedition/group traveling overland to the mouth of the Columbia for the Astor venture in 1810/11 traded for corn from the Indians in the Snake River plains. Perhaps it was another group but it was done. Corn was and had been a big trade commondity for many thousands of years all over North America. Now wheat is another story. Remember too, that Indians harvested but did not cultivate other grass grains in minor amounts just as they foraged for variously available regional nuts, roots and fibers. The question and thus the argument as to whether ground corn meal was carried, available for trade or, etc. is problematic. The indians certainly had it to trade. They grew or traded for corn and many, though not all tribes, ground it into flour for baking. So why wouldn't it be available to the long hunter along with the RMFT and beyond? That doesn't take away from a person's vow to not use anything not thouroghly documented. That is personal choice. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn and bees Date: 05 Oct 2000 11:47:47 -0600 Dog, Are you comming to the Camp? Ole ---------- >From: Ronald Schrotter <mail4dog@yahoo.com> >To: hist list <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: corn and bees >Date: Thu, Oct 5, 2000, 9:44 AM > >Frank, your last statement was true enough, crops did >get much better after the pilgrims landed [140 years >after Columbus]because the native americans were not >trained horticulturists, whereas Europeans had been >farming for quite a spell, and it was experience that >made the difference. Don't know what kinds of bees >they brought, but since ol' Chris never landed on our >continent, I have no idea what he had to do with their >introduction. I sure do enjoy the result though, Dog > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! >http://photos.yahoo.com/ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DRB Hays" <bestrong@cmc.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn & bees Date: 05 Oct 2000 11:10:11 -0700 Thank goodness fo those endo-urapeeing Bees the poor natives could have never made it on their primitive--godless own. Some Phd , some where has set the record straight. Popcorn and tacos to you sir. All you rendevous police take note: no second time around corn will be tolerated in this camp! LOLROTFLMAO ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 7:06 AM > Ole' #718 wrote, > > that > there were bees. No there were not European bees. There were Bumble Bee's > and probably in the neighborhood of 50+ native bees.> > > I know only what my expert told me, and he is a recognized authority. > Bumble bees may have been here, he acknowledges that. But they do a very > poor job of pollinating. Other insects that may pollinate also do a very > poor job. I agree something did some pollinating otherwise life would not > exist. > Better and more vigorous pollination started when the Mayflower landed. > I don't see that we are in disagreement. I jest didn't speeceefi wat kinds > of bees. I ain't the eekspurt. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 13:05:58 -0600 I had a great time at Ft Union and learned a bit while there. Gowen and Hansen had interesting luncheon presentations. Bought a ton of new books. Now just have to find a quiet time in the bathroom to read. Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 15:53:30 EDT In a message dated 10/5/00 9:16:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: << there were bees. No there were not European bees >> You can even change that to European Honey Bees which Native Americans called the white mans stining flys. These were imported to have honey and mead and wax which were common back in Europe. <<'They' had corn until it ran out. It may have been called wheat, or the wheat may have been called corn, I dunno>> In the 1700 all grain was (wheat, barley, oats) called corn by Europeans and what we call corn was called maze or indian corn. This can confuse people using early cook books and journals. Indian corn was prolific, if you read the accounts of Sullivans campaign in 1779 against the 6 natiions you will see that maze/corn was grown (along with beans and squash, the three sisters) by the thousands of acres. Sullivan did not defeat the Iroquois in battle, he use a slash and burn warfare (Gen G. Washingtons orders) to reduce the natives to starvation and force them to retreat to Ft. Niagara and north to further drain the British supplies, thereby reducing British attacks from the north. But maze/corn was an extremely viable crop in North America early in the 1700's. It may not have been planted as abundantly in the west but growing grain was practiced by the natives that were forced to relocate time and time again further and further west. YMOS C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 15:46:44 -0700 John, I'm right there with you on this one. I refuse to converse with anyone who chooses to use a bogus name, no name, or doesn't have his or her e-mail address on his or her messages. Just seems kinda rude to me. There seems to be a growing number of folks on this list and others who want to air their opinions, and yet remain totally anonymous. You and I have had rather heated discussions on this list and others, but we always knew who we were talkin to. If you wanted to e-mail me privately or if you wanted to call me up and give me piece of your mind, so be it. I had the same options. That just seems like the right way to carry on a discussion to me. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Dear -b, aka Billy Corgan, aka Chris Riddle, aka drownyoursorrows: Who the hell are you anyway??? It seems you have determined that "man" is not part of the natural order: hence, by your reasoning, it must be true; men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Or are we all from Uranus? Nothing you've said so far suggests an open mind. Your broad statements of "fact" are unsupported by evidence. You probably get good grades in school. A know-it-all-already university student without a real email address or name doesn't warrant answers, courtesy or consideration. John... At 02:13 PM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote: >I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the >situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though >that no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited >its resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man >naturally throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, >pollution from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made >technologies. It is impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on >the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and >other factors, which caused a large increase in population in that >area. I hope to discuss as well the positive effects of man, but it is >hard to see how building up cities is in any way positive to nature. The >fur trade may not be at fault for the cities, but the fur trade was a >major part of industry, was it not? >I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to >determine what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up >my mind and have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my >general research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the >situation from there. >Thank you to those who helped me out with finding information, you have >helped enlighten me about the realities of the fur trade and when I get to >reading all the material in full I will hopefully have my ideas straight. >Thanks again. >-b "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence." Napoleon Bonaparte. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 17:07:29 EDT Pendleton, You have a valid point...much like how the ol' coons of yesteryear appreciated a man what would toe up and rassle face-to-face. But some folks is just green to cyber-etiquette. Takes some a while to learn. Give -em time...give 'em time...my granpap used to say. Ignorance can be educated...stupidity-now that's forever. I remain respectfully yours, -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 16:08:56 -0500 Damn, but here I am agreeing 100% with both Larry and John, and in Public! Regards, Paul ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 5:46 PM > John, > I'm right there with you on this one. I refuse to converse with anyone > who chooses to use a bogus name, no name, or doesn't have his or her e-mail > address on his or her messages. Just seems kinda rude to me. There seems > to be a growing number of folks on this list and others who want to air > their opinions, and yet remain totally anonymous. > You and I have had rather heated discussions on this list and others, but > we always knew who we were talkin to. If you wanted to e-mail me privately > or if you wanted to call me up and give me piece of your mind, so be it. I > had the same options. That just seems like the right way to carry on a > discussion to me. > Pendleton > -----Original Message----- > From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Date: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 9:16 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade > > > Dear -b, aka Billy Corgan, aka Chris Riddle, aka drownyoursorrows: > > Who the hell are you anyway??? > > It seems you have determined that "man" is not part of the natural order: > hence, by your reasoning, it must be true; men are from Mars and women are > from Venus. Or are we all from Uranus? > > Nothing you've said so far suggests an open mind. > > Your broad statements of "fact" are unsupported by evidence. > > You probably get good grades in school. > > A know-it-all-already university student without a real email address or > name doesn't warrant answers, courtesy or consideration. > > John... > > At 02:13 PM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote: > >I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the > >situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though > >that no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited > >its resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man > >naturally throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, > >pollution from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made > >technologies. It is impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on > >the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and > >other factors, which caused a large increase in population in that > >area. I hope to discuss as well the positive effects of man, but it is > >hard to see how building up cities is in any way positive to nature. The > >fur trade may not be at fault for the cities, but the fur trade was a > >major part of industry, was it not? > >I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to > >determine what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up > >my mind and have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my > >general research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the > >situation from there. > >Thank you to those who helped me out with finding information, you have > >helped enlighten me about the realities of the fur trade and when I get to > >reading all the material in full I will hopefully have my ideas straight. > >Thanks again. > >-b > > > "Never ascribe to malice that which is > adequately explained by incompetence." > Napoleon Bonaparte. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 16:36:49 -0700 You have a valid point...much like how the ol' coons of yesteryear appreciated a man what would toe up and rassle face-to-face >> Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I figure a person who isn't willing to "toe the line" ain't worth talkin to. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 15:13:34 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 3:46 PM > John, > I'm right there with you on this one. I refuse to converse with anyone > who chooses to use a bogus name, no name, or doesn't have his or her e-mail > address on his or her messages. Pendleton, Sounds like a policy I can live with. No name, no email, bogus name, No Comment! It is just plain rude. Guy or gal like that on the mlml and called himself "me". I tried to tell him it was impolite and he wouldn't listen. No one talks to him as far as I know. Probably a nice fella otherwise. Just seems kinda rude to me. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 18:50:32 EDT Wfoster@cw2.com writes: > Where are them boys who went off to ft union. Why are they so quiet?>> We've been contemplatin' all that we learned and gettin' ready for the fall hunts. I went to Fort Union and had a great time. Best symposium/conference I have attended. Not only did I learn a lot, it got me fired-up for some new projects and interested in some new research. Made many new friends and I also met several good folks from this and other lists. However, there were several who from the list, who said they were coming, but I did not see or get a chance to meet them. There were about 175 paying participants, many presenters, National Park employees from the Fort, plus many from the local Ft. Union Association and area club(s) who stopped in and out of the proceedings. I think they said there were 29 states and 4 countries represented. It was a "jam" packed event with presentations during lunch and up until 10:00 at night. The presentations, vendors, tours, artifacts, and reenactment were all first class. I would highly recommend it. The host committee from Fort Union and all the re-enactors from far and wide should be congratulated. A friend, who is a rendezvous trader, went to the Fort Union Rendezvous on Memorial Day and said it was one of the best he attended. I will definitely put it on my calendar for next year. Only criticism I have is that they raffled the brain tan buffalo robe off to some "dude" from New York City. Tentative schedules for future symposiums (based on who volunteers to host it) are Fort Benton, MT 2003 and Chadron, NE (Museum of the Fur Trade) in 2006. I will not miss either or these. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 19:51:07 -0700 Glad someone had a good time. For those of us who were stuck in the "Sunny" Fla. slaving away with the uneducated children of tomorrow...... But, for those of you who are interested in Native American Material Culture, there is going to be a new seminar in the fall to go to. If anyone is interested, it may be in Sheridan, Great Falls? or somewhere in that area. Many of our " Material Culture" people went to Ft. Union and had such a good time they want to have another type a group gathering. Many of us go to the Plains Symposium in Cody, but that has turned into a Social, economic, modern, why do we hate the indians by the indians or how to be politically correct, bust. Use to be a great place to learn. Any way.....glad to hear the news. Sounds great. Linda Holley GHickman@aol.com wrote: > Wfoster@cw2.com writes: > > > Where are them boys who went off to ft union. Why are they so quiet?>> > > We've been contemplatin' all that we learned and gettin' ready for the fall > hunts. > > I went to Fort Union and had a great time. Best symposium/conference I have > attended. Not only did I learn a lot, it got me fired-up for some new > projects and interested in some new research. Made many new friends and I > also met several good folks from this and other lists. However, there were > several who from the list, who said they were coming, but I did not see or > get a chance to meet them. There were about 175 paying participants, many > presenters, National Park employees from the Fort, plus many from the local > Ft. Union Association and area club(s) who stopped in and out of the > proceedings. I think they said there were 29 states and 4 countries > represented. It was a "jam" packed event with presentations during lunch and > up until 10:00 at night. The presentations, vendors, tours, artifacts, and > reenactment were all first class. I would highly recommend it. The host > committee from Fort Union and all the re-enactors from far and wide should be > congratulated. > > A friend, who is a rendezvous trader, went to the Fort Union Rendezvous on > Memorial Day and said it was one of the best he attended. I will definitely > put it on my calendar for next year. Only criticism I have is that they > raffled the brain tan buffalo robe off to some "dude" from New York City. > Tentative schedules for future symposiums (based on who volunteers to host > it) are Fort Benton, MT 2003 and Chadron, NE (Museum of the Fur Trade) in > 2006. I will not miss either or these. > > YMOS > Ghosting Wolf > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pemmican Date: 05 Oct 2000 19:08:14 -0600 "Ponyrider" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> wrote: >angela g. or anyone; >looking for date the hudson bay co. started to sell pemmican to europ. >armys. also firm up about when hudson bay started useing pemmican in their >post systems. Sorry, Ponyrider. I thought I knew stuff about pemmican, but I'm afraid I can't help you out with the question of European armies. I'm not sure what you mean by "using pemmican in their post systems"--do you mean sending pemmican to a central provisioning post, or do you mean when they started using pemmican as food? I might be able to find out those answers, but if you meant something else, let me know. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: pemmican Date: 05 Oct 2000 19:38:30 -0600 "Ponyrider" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> wrote: >angela g. or anyone; >looking for date the hudson bay co. started to sell pemmican to europ. >armys. also firm up about when hudson bay started useing pemmican in their >post systems. Sorry, Ponyrider. I thought I knew stuff about pemmican, but I'm afraid I can't help you out with the question of European armies. I'm not sure what you mean by "using pemmican in their post systems"--do you mean sending pemmican to a central provisioning post, or do you mean when they started using pemmican as food? I might be able to find out those answers, but if you meant something else, let me know. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred Ponyrider and Angela, One of the big items for trade was pemmican. North of the border it was a major trade item back into the trading posts. The Assinaboine and Metis did a lot of trading of pemmican.. Another example of pemmican trade in large amounts was at the Fort Union Trading Post. Is the representative from Fort Union present on the list? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pemmican Date: 05 Oct 2000 22:31:50 EDT > Sorry, Ponyrider. I thought I knew stuff about pemmican, but I'm afraid I > can't help you out with the question of European armies. I'm not sure what > you mean by "using pemmican in their post systems"--do you mean sending > pemmican to a central provisioning post, or do you mean when they started > using pemmican as food? That information should be in the archives. We discussed it several years ago. I remember the thread and I provided substantial information, but it was too long ago and I can't remember the sources. It had to do with the Metis Buffalo hunts and the fact that they made pemmican from the buffalo meat and fat, packed it in the stomachs of the buffalo, carted it back on their Red River carts, and sold it to HBC and others. You just have to dig it out of the archives. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: word-phrase searchable hist-text digest archives Date: 05 Oct 2000 23:06:18 -0400 (EDT) Are there any plans or discussion among the AMM brethren (i.e., Dean & a few brothers) to do this? [too much work - not enough time?] It would make a great web site even greater. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 05 Oct 2000 23:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent as a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction (except for 1 man who survived for 9 months) of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C. [non-American Indian civilization]. Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = Lamanite]. Only ~ 10% of the archaeological sites of Central and South America have been uncovered. Much is still hidden, but what will come forth will be mind-boggling (an understatement to say the least). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 05 Oct 2000 23:59:11 EDT JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net writes: > Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent as a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction....of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C....Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D.....>> What is your documentation for this? Where is the archeological and/or geological evidence? I also think you need to check the dates, from the geological evidence, of when these animals became extinct and compare them to your dates. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 06 Oct 2000 01:19:35 -0600 Jon, since when did the book of Mormon become an ML list as a source of history? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 06 Oct 2000 01:25:04 -0600 Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = Lamanite]. Jon this is a bogus statement. Mammoths food supply as things dried up after the last Ice age. The bow and arrow arrived in what is now called Montana about the time you mention. 421 A. D. About the only thing you said that rings true is more is to be discovered south of the border. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 06 Oct 2000 06:24:57 -0700 Where is the documentation for any of this "Information"?????????? Never heard of this before. Linda Holley Jon Marinetti wrote: > Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent as > a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction (except for > 1 man who survived for 9 months) of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C. > [non-American Indian civilization]. > > Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the > Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the > Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = > Lamanite]. > > Only ~ 10% of the archaeological sites of Central and South America have > been uncovered. Much is still hidden, but what will come forth will be > mind-boggling (an understatement to say the least). > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 06 Oct 2000 07:28:46 -0500 Jon While all of us are free to worship as we choose, many of the "facts" = presented in the texts of the various religions are not facts at all but = are stories that must be accepted as true strictly as a matter of faith. = Your "facts" cannot be supported by any other evidence outside your = faith and should not be presented in any other context. =20 I am sure you have been taught these "history" lessons in your religion = and that you believe them with all your heart, but they cannot be proved = and should not be held out as facts when, in fact, they are only part of = your faith and are not otherwise in the historical record. Quoting from = your religious litterature is not proof of the "facts" just as quoting = from the Bible or any other religious text is not proof of what is said = there either. =20 Of course, your "facts" can no more be disproved than they can be = proved, but accepting that a negative cannot be proved is not "proof" = that the original idea is true.=20 I, for one, would prefer that anything presented here as factual should = be supported by verifiable research, not by stories from one's religion. = cordially Lanney Ratclff =20 Mammoths-Horses > Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent = as > a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction (except = for > 1 man who survived for 9 months) of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C. > [non-American Indian civilization]. >=20 > Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the > Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the > Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = =3D > Lamanite]. >=20 > Only ~ 10% of the archaeological sites of Central and South America = have > been uncovered. Much is still hidden, but what will come forth will = be > mind-boggling (an understatement to say the least). >=20 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: bees [was corn] Date: 06 Oct 2000 08:12:20 -0500 My comment that most of the continent was plains still stands. Yes, there were vast areas of old forests, that is well known. But much of what we see today as forest was grasslands. It is my understanding that growth of forests and demise of grasslands east of the Mississippi is what eliminated the bison from that part of the country. Life would not exist without pollination. But the imported European [my expert said they were mostly Italian] were far more effective than the native insects and dramatically changed this land. He did qualify what he told me as far as the semi-tropical areas of Florida and such, there were other pollinating factors at work there. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bees [was corn] Date: 06 Oct 2000 06:27:31 -0700 (PDT) The buffalo and the grasses teamed up to expand the grasslands over time; up to 60% of the North American continent was grassland. The symbiotic relationship reclaimed barren/rocky semi-arid wastelands and produced extremely fertile sod. The end of the vast buffalo herds came about due to many factors: the railroads splitting the herds in half, the farmer-settlers busting sod and fencing out bison, buffalo hunters/Natives decimating the herds for hides, bones or just TONGUES!, and last but not least, an epidemic (which dis-ease?) that nearly finished them off in 1884-5. Source: The Ecological Indian: Myth and History, by Shepard Krech III --- Frank Fusco <frankf@centurytel.net> wrote: > My comment that most of the continent was plains > still stands. Yes, > there were vast areas of old forests, that is well > known. But much of what > we see today as forest was grasslands. It is my > understanding that growth of > forests and demise of grasslands east of the > Mississippi is what eliminated > the bison from that part of the country. > Life would not exist without pollination. But > the imported European [my > expert said they were mostly Italian] were far more > effective than the > native insects and dramatically changed this land. > He did qualify what he > told me as far as the semi-tropical areas of Florida > and such, there were > other pollinating factors at work there. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: bear hide Date: 06 Oct 2000 08:30:32 -0500 I'll be hunting with Hawk and others near the Buffalo creek [formerly river] during the muzzle loading season shortly. We 'plan' to harvest us a bar each. Now, I don't have the know-how or facilities to tan a bar hide. Can anyone recommend a reputable place to get a bar hide tanned, fur on? Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear hide Date: 01 Jan 2000 06:54:02 -0600 I can, OK.............it's my business! thanks Joe see our web site Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 06 Oct 2000 19:15:44 -0500 >it sanctifies the "First Peoples" beyond their due by not addressing the > negative impact those peoples have had on the environment. They >did not practice as good a level of > stewardship as past authors have made them out to have done. This needs to > be addressed as well, just to put things in a balanced perspective. > > Indians also > practiced some very wasteful hunting techniques such as buffalo drops where > hundreds of animals are run off a cliff. Lets not forget fire hunting practiced by most NA societies. Fire was set to the plains and forests to drive animals to the hunters. I have to wonder how much habitat and how many animals were lost each year to these uncontrolled fires. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses Date: 06 Oct 2000 23:08:09 -0400 (EDT) c.f. National Geographic, Dec.1999, GEOGRAPHICA article titled: "More Fossils by a Dam Site" Location: southwest of Palm Springs where the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California is building its Eastside Reservoir. Quantity: 20,000 fossils (such as a huge femur from a Columbian mammoth uncovered in 1993 - photo included) "There are mammoths, mastadons, bison, camels, horses, saber-toothed cats, giant ground sloths, North American lions, black bears, wolves, and small animals like badgers, weasels, rabbits, turtles, mice, frogs, and birds says the San Bernardino County Museum paleontologist Kathleen Springer." USA Today, Tues. 09-26-00, p.3A, article on Kennewick Man: "Professors who studied the bones for the Interior Department have said Kennewick Man appears to be most strongly connected to the people of Polynesia and southern Asia. The find has helped force researchers to consider the possibility that the continent's earliest arrivals came not by a land bridge between Russia and Alaska, a long-held theory, but by boat or some other route." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses Date: 07 Oct 2000 06:05:31 -0700 On Fri, 06 October 2000, Jon Marinetti wrote: > > c.f. National Geographic, Dec.1999, GEOGRAPHICA article titled: "More > Fossils by a Dam Site" > > Location: southwest of Palm Springs where the Metropolitan Water > District of Southern California is building its Eastside Reservoir. > > Quantity: 20,000 fossils (such as a huge femur from a Columbian mammoth > uncovered in 1993 - photo included) > > "There are mammoths, mastadons, bison, camels, horses, saber-toothed > cats, giant ground sloths, North American lions, black bears, wolves, > and small animals like badgers, weasels, rabbits, turtles, mice, frogs, > and birds says the San Bernardino County Museum paleontologist Kathleen > Springer." > ------------------------------------------------ > > USA Today, Tues. 09-26-00, p.3A, article on Kennewick Man: > > "Professors who studied the bones for the Interior Department have said > Kennewick Man appears to be most strongly connected to the people of > Polynesia and southern Asia. The find has helped force researchers to > consider the possibility that the continent's earliest arrivals came not > by a land bridge between Russia and Alaska, a long-held theory, but by > boat or some other route." > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jon, Interesting material but what does it have to do with the history of the Fur Trade 1800-1840 as we see it or was seen in it's hay day ! _____________________________________________________________________________ With the amount of e-mails this has raised, it reminds me of a statement seen years ago from an interview of Sylvian Hart (the modern day mountain man - that lived it). "subjects I don't talk about are politics, religion and sports, fastest way to start a fight". _____________________________________________________________________________ I have seen several others use a like statement claiming it be be theirs also. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses Date: 07 Oct 2000 08:32:49 -0500 Jon if your going to use these sources as references you should consider other information they have gathered because these same folks that made them certainly don't believe any of the things you do. Tell me of one single person in the world who has studied these matters in a professional manner that gives even the slightest amount of credence to anything you have said. I don't read to you about unrelated topics out of my bible on this list I would ask that you do the same. Tony Clark ----- Original Message ----- Sent: October 06, 2000 10:08 PM > c.f. National Geographic, Dec.1999, GEOGRAPHICA article titled: "More > Fossils by a Dam Site" > > Location: southwest of Palm Springs where the Metropolitan Water > District of Southern California is building its Eastside Reservoir. > > Quantity: 20,000 fossils (such as a huge femur from a Columbian mammoth > uncovered in 1993 - photo included) > > "There are mammoths, mastadons, bison, camels, horses, saber-toothed > cats, giant ground sloths, North American lions, black bears, wolves, > and small animals like badgers, weasels, rabbits, turtles, mice, frogs, > and birds says the San Bernardino County Museum paleontologist Kathleen > Springer." > ------------------------------------------------ > > USA Today, Tues. 09-26-00, p.3A, article on Kennewick Man: > > "Professors who studied the bones for the Interior Department have said > Kennewick Man appears to be most strongly connected to the people of > Polynesia and southern Asia. The find has helped force researchers to > consider the possibility that the continent's earliest arrivals came not > by a land bridge between Russia and Alaska, a long-held theory, but by > boat or some other route." > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 07 Oct 2000 08:54:21 -0500 Jon: As you were polite enough to note in the subject listing, this material is off topic. Further, it broaches matters religious, which I, for one, do not care to debate in this forum. I would hope that you will restrict further postings to this list to matters relating to the Mountain Man era and genuinely related topics. However, Mammoths and Mastodons are a subject near and dear to me as I had the opportunity many years ago to work with several groups of paleontologists from assorted Ivy League and other schools who were excavating various fossil remains from my family's ranch in North Texas, and I would therefore like to comment about your assertions as it relates solely to the animal species. My understanding then, and now (from every recognized paleontology textbook I have been able to peruse on the subject), is that there is considerable well-tested scientific evidence that both the Mammoths and the Mastodons died out on this continent no later than about 10,000 years ago, and most certainly were not found anywhere by the 585 B.C. era you cite. As I am sure you know, the mammal population in what is know called North America, suffered a massive die-off in the late Pleistocene, leaving no large mammals (from the horse [so whatever was eliminated from the animal species as a result of the "civil wars" you cited circa 421 A.D. was most certainly not related to horses], saber-toothed tiger, to the Mammoth, and the three species of Mastodon-Columbian, Jefferson [so named after our beloved President] and Woolly) on the continent. The late Pleistocene is an epoch well documented, and very well dated. The challenge of this well documented and dated evidence comes only from matters religious, which brings me back to the fundamental reason it is better to debate such issues either privately or on another list. Regards, Paul W. Jones ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:47 PM > Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent as > a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction (except for > 1 man who survived for 9 months) of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C. > [non-American Indian civilization]. > > Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the > Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the > Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = > Lamanite]. > > Only ~ 10% of the archaeological sites of Central and South America have > been uncovered. Much is still hidden, but what will come forth will be > mind-boggling (an understatement to say the least). > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 08 Oct 2000 03:45:20 EDT Hello in the camp! While I was ridein in I picked up a few things along the trail. I was a wondering if any of it belonged to any of you folks that don't tie your stuff on. I lost my first knife and sheath by just tucking it under my belt and my second knife the sheath was tied in but the knife was not. It fit so tight I would have to turn it up side down and shake it hard to get it out. But there was a lot of handle sticking out of the sheath and my pack horse's lead rope must have hooked it one of those times when it was being #**#%*!!!!! ***#%#!!!!! such a sweet hart. I found this hat too it's a nice one but no wonder they lost it, it has no stampede strap on it. I would keep it but it don't fit it's to tight, I guess I could screw it down on my head good and tight but that would only give me another head ache. The pack horse is a big enough one at times. So if you don't want to sacrifice your gear to the trail gods you had better tie it in or on. Or keep a good close eye on your back trail and get good at picking things up off the ground from off the top of your horse. Cause getting on and off that horse is going to get old. You were a talkin about sashes bein used by Rocky Mountain trappers. I have not came a cross any in any of the trade lists or journals that I have read. But leather for belts was available in old saddle leather. For as much as their saddle gear got used things like surcingles, stirrups straps and depending on how the saddle was rigged ether girth or cinch straps all wore out with time. Any one of these Items would make more then one belt. Well, it's time to ride so......... See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 08 Oct 2000 08:12:05 -0600 Hello Crazy Coyt, Must be some other lost pilgrim's stuff. We are gathered in here during this fine Month of October to spend the winter of what will be called the Original Rocky Mountain College. Plenty of Metis in camp. They pretty much seem to be wearing sashes. Some of our boys like to wear a leather War Belt over the top of the sash. I been told that 40 50 years from now the likes of Charlie Russell will wear a sash and show how it was worn among horse men he was among. Sorry to hear about your loses. None of that stuff belongs to anyone in this camp. Sorry to hear you hat don't fit real good either. I hain't to sure what a drug store cowboy stampede strap looks like for sure. I know Ponyrider has been up on horseback for 50 years or so. And so have I. I don't know when the word Dude was created but it was about this time. Bring back some more neat stuff next time around. I have handled 5,6,7 pack horse at a time. Managed to keep my hat on and I did not loose my knife. What was I doing wrong. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana Hello in the camp! While I was ridein in I picked up a few things along the trail. I was a wondering if any of it belonged to any of you folks that don't tie your stuff on. I lost my first knife and sheath by just tucking it under my belt and my second knife the sheath was tied in but the knife was not. It fit so tight I would have to turn it up side down and shake it hard to get it out. But there was a lot of handle sticking out of the sheath and my pack horse's lead rope must have hooked it one of those times when it was being #**#%*!!!!! ***#%#!!!!! such a sweet hart. I found this hat too it's a nice one but no wonder they lost it, it has no stampede strap on it. I would keep it but it don't fit it's to tight, I guess I could screw it down on my head good and tight but that would only give me another head ache. The pack horse is a big enough one at times. So if you don't want to sacrifice your gear to the trail gods you had better tie it in or on. Or keep a good close eye on your back trail and get good at picking things up off the ground from off the top of your horse. Cause getting on and off that horse is going to get old. You were a talkin about sashes bein used by Rocky Mountain trappers. I have not came a cross any in any of the trade lists or journals that I have read. But leather for belts was available in old saddle leather. For as much as their saddle gear got used things like surcingles, stirrups straps and depending on how the saddle was rigged ether girth or cinch straps all wore out with time. Any one of these Items would make more then one belt. Well, it's time to ride so......... See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 08 Oct 2000 08:56:15 -0700 On Sat, 07 October 2000, "Paul W. Jones" wrote: > Jon: > > As you were polite enough to note in the subject listing, this material is > off topic. Further, it broaches matters religious, which I, for one, do not > care to debate in this forum. I would hope that you will restrict further > postings to this list to matters relating to the Mountain Man era and > genuinely related topics. WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP AT THIS POINT !!!! > However, Mammoths and Mastodons are a subject near and dear to me as I had > the opportunity many years ago to work with several groups of > paleontologists from assorted Ivy League and other schools who were > excavating various fossil remains from my family's ranch in North Texas, and > I would therefore like to comment about your assertions as it relates solely > to the animal species. My understanding then, and now (from every > recognized paleontology textbook I have been able ................. WHY CONTINUE THE SUBJECT !!!! > The challenge of this well documented and dated evidence comes only from > matters religious, which brings me back to the fundamental reason it is > better to debate such issues either privately or on another list. STOP PAUL ................. > Paul W. Jones > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jon Marinetti <JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net> > To: <hist_text@xmission.com> > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:47 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses WEATHER FORECAST: WINDY IN THE WEST - ONLY KIDDING PABLO. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 08 Oct 2000 12:08:04 EDT > ______________________________________________ > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT >"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, > before production". > ________________________________________HRD__ Concho, How about you or Buck let us ignorant pilgrims know what this outfit is all about. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - "NO MORE" on mammoths-mastadons Date: 08 Oct 2000 09:31:37 -0700 Jon, The members of this list would be more interested in material that fit's this hist_list; "fur trade 1800-1840's". But one subject that seems to be of great interest is the discovery of the "Icemen" found in Europe and Canada, not our period - but the interest lies in; these where survivors by what they carried. Much like the mountainmen, the exployers and the adventures that moved around in the fur trade in N. America, survivors with similar tools of the trade. Example: fire making kits, herbs for medicine, weapons, clothing to protect themselves - items that compare; some items of great interest that several on this list are working with now. I am very interested in the European "Iceman's" fire kit, char, etc., has he found something that we the modern mountainmen need to know about ? A friend of Buck's is working with a grass coat that he wore, much like one's worn by early natives in this country. The "Primitive Society" and "An Earlier Time" magazines have great interest in both these men as well as, "early man through the fur trade" in North and South America according to William Eaton and James Rubinfine's artilces a few years ago. We've had several good talks about tinder, char, and steels for fire kits, excellent e-mails on clothing, etc., lets keep the idea of what was used and how it would help or hinder in the daily life of surviving in the "Stoney Mountains" as referred to by the natives and called the "Rockies" by the Europeans. "We study the history of the Fur Trade and experiment with the equipage used in that time (reproduction and original) as well as making our camps, sampling the foods, etc. in trying to experience the life styles of our forefathers". Buck Conner 1971. From an article written for the "BuckSkin Report" thirty years ago and he as well as many others, (thousands) are still working at that experience, so let's work as we have in the past as a team in discovering what these great men of the fur trade found and how they lived from day to day through good documentation. Sorry to be so long winded, right Pablo. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 08 Oct 2000 10:04:13 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > ______________________________________________ > > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > >"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, > > before production". > > ________________________________________HRD__ > > Concho, > How about you or Buck let us ignorant pilgrims know what this outfit is all > about. > > Dave Kanger > Dave, Haven't talked to you for sometime, last time I saw you was at your doin's at the river near Lisle, Ill., is that group still in operation - very impressive and well organized. Buck said he was invited to one of your meeting while in Lisle, and was very impressed with them and you, and what your group has got done in saving a piece of history. We all need more like you and yours, thanks. As for the HRD; "HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT", like their statement says "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production" is just that. After good documentation with research on a given item has been completed, a sample may be made and worked with (field trialed) to see if that item is worthy of being reproduced and made available to the public, then a study is made to see how marketable that item is (will it sell). HRD would produce working models, schematics (blue prints) and documentation of the item to those that produce such things with like quality and offered to a marketing group to wholesale that item. Sounds like a lot of work for making something period correct, but that is how this sport has grown with the deciated reenacter, historian and history buff - those that want correct equipage to experience the choosen time frame that they have grown to love and study. We have some good folks involved in the HRD; Betty Morris of the "Historical Society" in St. Louis, James Rubinfine of "An Earlier Time" magazine (retired editor) - New England states, William Eaton of "The Colonial Society" magazine out of Williamburg, Buck Conner of Clark & Sons Merc. (retired) and of this list - Colorado, myself from Pennsylvaina and several others that I have not had the pleasure of meeting yet. We are all experienced in a number of different areas of living history, museums, etc., we are given a subject to investage, research, document and then report our findings to HRD, for now the time doesn't warrent the pay - more of a love of doing research and just learning about our forefather's and what life was like living then. Hope that helps Dave. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 08 Oct 2000 10:14:54 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > ______________________________________________ > > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > >"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, > > before production". > > ________________________________________HRD__ > > Concho, > How about you or Buck let us ignorant pilgrims know what this outfit is all > about. > > Dave Kanger > Dave, Haven't talked to you for sometime, last time I saw you was at your doin's at the river near Lisle, Ill., is that group still in operation - very impressive and well organized. Buck said he was invited to one of your meeting while in Lisle, and was very impressed with them and you, and what your group has got done in saving a piece of history. We all need more like you and yours, thanks. As for the HRD; "HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT", like their statement says "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production" is just that. After good documentation with research on a given item has been completed, a sample may be made and worked with (field trialed) to see if that item is worthy of being reproduced and made available to the public, then a study is made to see how marketable that item is (will it sell). HRD would produce working models, schematics (blue prints) and documentation of the item to those that produce such things with like quality and offered to a marketing group to wholesale that item. Sounds like a lot of work for making something period correct, but that is how this sport has grown with the deciated reenacter, historian and history buff - those that want correct equipage to experience the choosen time frame that they have grown to love and study. We have some good folks involved in the HRD; Betty Morris of the "Historical Society" in St. Louis, James Rubinfine of "An Earlier Time" magazine (retired editor) - New England states, William Eaton of "The Colonial Society" magazine out of Williamburg, Buck Conner of Clark & Sons Merc. (retired) and of this list - Colorado, myself from Pennsylvaina and several others that I have not had the pleasure of meeting yet. We are all experienced in a number of different areas of living history, museums, etc., we are given a subject to investage, research, document and then report our findings to HRD, for now the time doesn't warrent the pay - more of a love of doing research and just learning about our forefather's and what life was like living then. Hope that helps with your question Dave. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 08 Oct 2000 10:24:11 -0700 Sorry folks, Changed the subject line and sent, didn't realize the message had already been sent, have a good Sunday. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List:The Ice man. Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:05:40 -0600 The members of this list would be more interested in material that fit's this hist_list; "fur trade 1800-1840's". But one subject that seems to be of great interest is the discovery of the "Icemen" found in Europe and Canada, not our period - but the interest lies in; these where survivors by what they carried. Much like the mountainmen, the exployers and the adventures that moved around in the fur trade in N. America, survivors with similar tools of the trade. Example: fire making kits, herbs for medicine, weapons, clothing to protect themselves - items that compare; some items of great interest that several on this list are working with now. I am very interested in the European "Iceman's" fire kit, char, etc., has he found something that we the modern mountainmen need to know about ? A friend of Buck's is working with a grass coat that he wore, much like one's worn by early natives in this country. The "Primitive Society" and "An Earlier Time" magazines have great interest in both these men as well as, "early man through the fur trade" in North and South America according to William Eaton and James Rubinfine's artilces a few years ago. Hey Concho, I have been waiting for a conversation to start up from those who went to Fort Union. Lot of hullabaloo before the event and silent after it. However the above is well within interest to remark about it. It is a singular ice man we are talking about. And as background. I was stationed with NATO forces in Vicenza, Italy. Very close to where the ice man and the equipment he was carrying was found. The reason that I am saying this is the fact that there is a remarkable similarity of appearance between the Alps where the ice man was found and the Beartooth Mountains that are on the north east edge of Yellowstone Park as seen from Billings, Montana. Looking at the Alps from Vicenza is an almost identical view from Billings, Montana to the Beartooth Mountains. The same distance. The same direction. A similar river [the Po] to the Yellowstone. A rimrock right next to the river as it does in Billings. The Alps are about the same height. Valleys go in the same way. Tops appear similar. I carried my long straight bow with me when I went to Italy. I carried my bow and arrows as I look around the country. Several times up along the border Austria where the ice man was found. When I first saw the news report I got one of those VBG on my face as I realized I could visualize the place being reported about. I grew concerned when I miss understand in the conjecturing that was being published. I would like to see this conversation around the camp fire keep going. Makes a good subject for long term understanding of mountain men from some place else. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: OT - "NO MORE" on mammoths-mastadons Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:05:42 -0600 "We study the history of the Fur Trade and experiment with the equipage used in that time (reproduction and original) as well as making our camps, sampling the foods, etc. in trying to experience the life styles of our forefathers". Buck Conner 1971. From an article written for the "BuckSkin Report" thirty years ago and he as well as many others, (thousands) are still working at that experience, so let's work as we have in the past as a team in discovering what these great men of the fur trade found and how they lived from day to day through good documentation. Hey Concho, Wow! How big this movement has grown within my life time. Some of you fellars might ought to try to stop and camp on some of this historic ground particularly to understand what it takes to winter through. Neat to know Buck Conner was writing back in 71 for the Buckskin Report about experience the life styles of our forefathers. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 08 Oct 2000 12:06:15 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > ______________________________________________ > > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > >"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, > > before production". > > ________________________________________HRD__ > > > Concho, > How about you or Buck let us ignorant pilgrims know what this outfit is all > about. > > Dave Kanger > > --------------------- Dave, You should have never asked "Concho" a question, he hasn't stopped e-mailing for an hour, probably made the paper kid mad and didn't get the Sunday News, or the girl friend is out of town. So far he's patted you on the back, made Pablo mad, and put everyone on the list to sleep, who knows what's next. As far as the statement Concho mentioned about your reenactment group in or near Lisle, ILL - how is it doing and do you still hold your rendezvous ? Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List:TOF HRD and Concho Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:23:18 -0600 As for the HRD; "HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT", like their statement says "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production" is just that. After good documentation with research on a given item has been completed, a sample may be made and worked with (field trialed) to see if that item is worthy of being reproduced and made available to the public, then a study is made to see how marketable that item is (will it sell). HRD would produce working models, schematics (blue prints) and documentation of the item to those that produce such things with like quality and offered to a marketing group to wholesale that item. Sounds like an opportunity to further capitalize on the history of this place with the marketing effort you are talking about Concho. We been doing the same thing over the years but there is only a handful of us here along the Yellowstone where a huge rush of tourists are expected to start. We have already been seeing them. We may be interested in some finished product/s but more likely supplies. Push on it ain't that far to the top of the ridge. Good post Concho and thanks for asking TOF. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:28:56 -0600 -----Original Message----- Sounds like a lot of work for making something period correct, but that is how this sport has grown with the deciated reenacter, historian and history buff - those that want correct equipage to experience the choosen time frame that they have grown to love and study. D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". Concho, Interesting that you would call this a sport. That was my eldest son who passed in 97 nick name. I consider this a life style. A desirable way to live. In around and among the mountains everyday. Wouldn't have it any other way. Except I am over the hill and looking off toward the other side camp. VBG Keep up the interesting posts. It has been dead on this history list. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: MtMan-List: MAMOTHS AND SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 08 Oct 2000 14:58:47 -0700 I know this is OT, but I wonder if Mamoths were good eatin ? Hmmmm ? On another topic, was it common for old cross-cut saws to be recycled into knives, in the fur trade era ? I have a old skinnin knife that appears to have been home made from a very old saw blade. Anyone have any thoughts ? Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:19:00 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote: > -----Original Message----- > Sounds like a lot of work for making something period correct, but that is > how this sport has grown with................. > Concho. > --------------------------- > Concho, > > Interesting that you would call this a sport. That was my eldest son who > passed in 97 nick name. I consider this a life style. A desirable way to > live. In around and among the mountains everyday. Wouldn't have it any > other way. Except I am over the hill and looking off toward the other side > camp. VBG > > Keep up the interesting posts. It has been dead on this history list. > > Walt Walt, I guess this way of life is still considered a sport as long as there are folks making maney on it selling their wares and there are folks looking at it as an activity to be involved in after their daily work. But I have to agree in what you said about a good way of life for those so lucky. As for "HRD": To date we have researched building sites, camp/encampment sites, and portage areas; one of interest to those involved in the Fur Trade was the David ThompsonÆs house and trading post, the "Kulleyspell House" at Sand Point - Idaho. Another Fur Trade project that turned out to be fun was the research of Marino Medina and some of his clothing found at Masonville - Colorado. This discovery changed the fur trade reenactment groups and the AMM [American Mountain Men] thinking on breeches being used this late in the century. The reenacter, historian or history buff of the Rev. War would be interested that at Valley Forge - Pennsylvania, at a site of a mounded trench, remains of an early copper boiler and it's half eaten iron bail proved to the reenactment and history buffÆs that such items made of copper where being used and available to the common soldier. Up to this point everyone, the ALHA [American Long Hunter Association] and several other groups assumed only tin or iron pots where used by armed forces in this time frame. For the American Civil War student in the woods at Gettsyburg we found spent musket balls, parts or forks, knives, belt buckles from both sides, small hand tools, etc. A remote camp site near present day Jefferson - New York yielded French & Indian and Rev. War campware items, all interesting for each period and it lets your imagination run wild with what could of happened at one of these locations. Some items found, researched, with a reproduction model made, are then field tested for their original intended use in an attempt to see if it was an effective item for it's purpose. With permission from the: organization, association or owner, a study is made to determine if production of the article and marketing is a worthwhile venture. Many times the item would have limited success, only interest being a few museums or private collectors from the area the article was found, thus not worth the investment needed in making it available to the wholesale/retail trade. Many of the items recovered are parts or pieces of a larger object, thus making an interesting research project that can lead you in several different directions before discovering what your dealing with. There are so many neat items being unearthed at this time in our countries history it's hard to be involved in everyone, but we make an honest effort to investigate as many as time allows. Thank you for visiting with us, please do come back again. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:28:43 -0700 > > Concho, > > How about you or Buck let us ignorant pilgrims know what this outfit is all > > about. > > > > Dave Kanger > > > > --------------------- > > Dave, > > You should have never asked "Concho" a question, he hasn't stopped e-mailing for an hour, probably made the paper kid mad and didn't get the Sunday News, or the girl friend is out of town. So far he's patted you on the back, made Pablo mad, and put everyone on the list to sleep, who knows what's next. > > As far as the statement Concho mentioned about your reenactment group in or near Lisle, ILL - how is it doing and do you still hold your rendezvous ? > > Later, > > Barry "Buck" Conner --------------------------- Thanks brother, I just used your information on "HRD" to answer Walt, now your probably going to give me hell about that, only kidding Buck. And I screwed up on one post giving credit to you for that comment from "Buckskin Report" 1971, that was made by "Wound'd Bear" now known as you, Buck changes names when the girls start to compare notes, HA HA. We are even now HA HA <G>. Dave let us know how the group is doing in ILL, we sure had some good times at your rendezvous. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List:The Ice man. Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:40:30 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote: > > > The members of this list would be more interested in material that fit's > this hist_list; "fur trade 1800-1840's". But one subject that seems to be of > great interest is the discovery of the "Icemen" found in Europe and Canada, > not our period - but the interest lies in; these where survivors by what > they carried. Much like the mountainmen, the exployers and the adventures > that moved around in the fur trade in N. America, survivors with similar > tools of the trade. > > Example: fire making kits, herbs for medicine, weapons, clothing to protect > themselves - items that compare; some items of great interest that several > on this list are working with now. I am very interested in the European > "Iceman's" fire kit, char, etc., has he found something that we the modern > mountainmen need to know about ? A friend of Buck's is working with a grass > coat that he wore, much like one's worn by early natives in this country. > The "Primitive Society" and "An Earlier Time" magazines have great interest > in both these men as well as, "early man through the fur trade" in North and > South America according to William Eaton and James Rubinfine's artilces a > few years ago. > > > > Hey Concho, > > I have been waiting for a conversation to start up from those who went to > Fort Union. Lot of hullabaloo before the event and silent after it. > However the above is well within interest to remark about it. > > It is a singular ice man we are talking about. And as background. I was > stationed with NATO forces in Vicenza, Italy. Very close to where the ice > man and the equipment he was carrying was found. The reason that I am > saying this is the fact that there is a remarkable similarity of appearance > between the Alps where the ice man was found and the Beartooth Mountains > that are on the north east edge of Yellowstone Park as seen from Billings, > Montana. Looking at the Alps from Vicenza is an almost identical view from > Billings, Montana to the Beartooth Mountains. The same distance. The same > direction. A similar river [the Po] to the Yellowstone. A rimrock right > next to the river as it does in Billings. The Alps are about the same > height. Valleys go in the same way. Tops appear similar. I carried my > long straight bow with me when I went to Italy. I carried my bow and arrows > as I look around the country. Several times up along the border Austria > where the ice man was found. > > When I first saw the news report I got one of those VBG on my face as I > realized I could visualize the place being reported about. I grew concerned > when I miss understand in the conjecturing that was being published. I > would like to see this conversation around the camp fire keep going. Makes > a good subject for long term understanding of mountain men from some place > else. > > Walt ----------------------- Walt, I'm looking for my notes on his fire kit, medicine, etc. this mountainman (Ice Man) of the past was well heeled with much the same as we carry in "living history" camps. Buck's friend Jerry LaVelle, a student of 30 years of wild edibles of the Rockies has really gotten into this find the Ice Man, has duplicated some of the items, does the "Primitive Society" camps like "Winter Count" and "Rabbit Stick" every year just because of the interest of the "Ice Man". We the members of the hist_list and the "Ice Man" are very similar in how we survive will in camp and on the trail, its amazing how close in equipage as you say. I'll be back as that big dumby says. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MAMOTHS AND SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 08 Oct 2000 16:43:07 EDT You know I bet mammoths would have been excellent eating if cooked properly in a Dutch oven <BG>. Laura Glise (I couldn't help myself. Pendleton dared me to do it.) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: MAMOTHS AND SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 08 Oct 2000 15:32:50 -0600 Hi Laura, Do you and Pendleton know the difference between the Mammoth and Mastodon? Were either you or Pendleton at fort union? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wind1838@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 2:43 PM You know I bet mammoths would have been excellent eating if cooked properly in a Dutch oven <BG>. Laura Glise (I couldn't help myself. Pendleton dared me to do it.) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 08 Oct 2000 15:32:52 -0600 I guess this way of life is still considered a sport as long as there are folks making maney on it selling their wares and there are folks looking at it as an activity to be involved in after their daily work. But I have to agree in what you said about a good way of life for those so lucky. Concho, I always thought that was trading not sport. I don't call it luck, but I guess your right. Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MAMOTHS AND SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 08 Oct 2000 17:36:24 -0700 Mastodon? >> Hell Walt I can't even spell such a thing without a computer. No I wasn't at Fort Union. Maybe I outta have been though. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <conner1@uswest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:The Ice man. Date: 08 Oct 2000 16:55:08 -0600 --------------C359885711BBE4F093D48135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Concho wrote: > On Sun, 08 October 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote: > > The members of this list would be more interested in material that fit's > > this hist_list; "fur trade 1800-1840's". But one subject that seems to be of > > great interest is the discovery of the "Icemen" found in Europe and Canada, > > not our period - but the interest lies in; these where survivors by what > > they carried. Much like the mountainmen, the exployers and the adventures > > that moved around in the fur trade in N. America, survivors with similar > > tools of the trade. > > > > Example: fire making kits, herbs for medicine, weapons, clothing to protect > > themselves - items that compare; some items of great interest that several > > on this list are working with now. I am very interested in the European > > "Iceman's" fire kit, char, etc., has he found something that we the modern > > mountainmen need to know about ? A friend of Buck's is working with a grass > > coat that he wore, much like one's worn by early natives in this country. > > The "Primitive Society" and "An Earlier Time" magazines have great interest > > in both these men as well as, "early man through the fur trade" in North and > > South America according to William Eaton and James Rubinfine's artilces a > > few years ago. > > Hey Concho, > > > > I have been waiting for a conversation to start up from those who went to > > Fort Union. Lot of hullabaloo before the event and silent after it. > > However the above is well within interest to remark about it. It is a singular ice man we are talking about. And as background. I was stationed with NATO forces in Vicenza, Italy. Very close to where the ice........................ > > When I first saw the news report I got one of those VBG on my face as I > > realized I could visualize the place being reported about. I grew concerned > > when I miss understand in the conjecturing that was being published. I > > would like to see this conversation around the camp fire keep going. Makes > > a good subject for long term understanding of mountain men from some place > > else. > > > > Walt > ----------------------- > > Walt, > > I'm looking for my notes on his fire kit, medicine, etc. this mountainman (Ice Man) of the past was well heeled with much the same as we carry in "living history" camps................. > > I'll be back as that big dumby says. > > In the footsteps of others, > > D. L. "Concho" Smith We know who the "big dummy" is don't we Concho ! Don't tell him I've change my e-mail address to: conner1@uswest.net please make a change on your address book, thanks. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------C359885711BBE4F093D48135 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Concho wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>On Sun, 08 October 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote: > The members of this list would be more interested in material that fit's > this hist_list; "fur trade 1800-1840's". But one subject that seems to be of > great interest is the discovery of the "Icemen" found in Europe and Canada, > not our period - but the interest lies in; these where survivors by what > they carried. Much like the mountainmen, the exployers and the adventures > that moved around in the fur trade in N. America, survivors with similar > tools of the trade. > > Example: fire making kits, herbs for medicine, weapons, clothing to protect > themselves - items that compare; some items of great interest that several > on this list are working with now. I am very interested in the European > "Iceman's" fire kit, char, etc., has he found something that we the modern > mountainmen need to know about ? A friend of Buck's is working with a grass > coat that he wore, much like one's worn by early natives in this country. > The "Primitive Society" and "An Earlier Time" magazines have great interest > in both these men as well as, "early man through the fur trade" in North and > South America according to William Eaton and James Rubinfine's artilces a > few years ago.</blockquote> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>> Hey Concho, > > I have been waiting for a conversation to start up from those who went to > Fort Union. Lot of hullabaloo before the event and silent after it. > However the above is well within interest to remark about it. It is a singular ice man we are talking about. And as background. I was stationed with NATO forces in Vicenza, Italy. Very close to where the ice........................</blockquote> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>> When I first saw the news report I got one of those VBG on my face as I > realized I could visualize the place being reported about. I grew concerned > when I miss understand in the conjecturing that was being published. I > would like to see this conversation around the camp fire keep going. Makes > a good subject for long term understanding of mountain men from some place > else. > > Walt ----------------------- Walt, I'm looking for my notes on his fire kit, medicine, etc. this mountainman (Ice Man) of the past was well heeled with much the same as we carry in "living history" camps................. I'll be back as that big dumby says. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith</blockquote> We know who the "big dummy" is don't we Concho ! Don't tell him I've change my e-mail address to: conner1@uswest.net please make a change on your address book, thanks. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ </html> --------------C359885711BBE4F093D48135-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MAMOTHS AND SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 08 Oct 2000 18:59:13 -0700 Walt, Actually both Mammoths and Matodons are the critters that modern elephants were descended from. The difference between them is the Mastodons had complete tuberculate teeth. Of course both the Mammoths and Mastodons were covered with a coat of shaggy hair. How would you like to braintan a hide that big ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- Hi Laura, Do you and Pendleton know the difference between the Mammoth and Mastodon? Were either you or Pendleton at fort union? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wind1838@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 2:43 PM You know I bet mammoths would have been excellent eating if cooked properly in a Dutch oven <BG>. Laura Glise (I couldn't help myself. Pendleton dared me to do it.) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DRB Hays" <bestrong@cmc.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - "NO MORE" on mammoths-mastadons Date: 08 Oct 2000 18:49:08 -0700 yes It is neat to know. I have fond memories of the Big Timber Rendezvous. The Buckskin Report inspired a few of us Northern Ca boys to start our own handwritten magazine called The Voice of The Mountains. We started having our Rendezvous In the mountains and used the flatland Rendezvous as a resupply source. Pre 1840 became a historical goal, and the "doing" was more important than winning a pretty tipi contest. Each to his own though and the only time I really got upset was when the fellow showed up with his blaze orange mountain tent, the dog soldier was polite and didn't ask him to leave--- but put him far enough away from camp that we could disclaim knowing him. Ten years later that feller was making the beaver come and was doing some fine brain tan. YMOS, Doc --- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 12:05 PM > "We study the history of the Fur Trade and experiment with the equipage used > in that time (reproduction and original) as well as making our camps, > sampling the foods, etc. in trying to experience the life styles of our > forefathers". Buck Conner 1971. From an article written for the "BuckSkin > Report" thirty years ago and he as well as many others, (thousands) are > still working at that experience, so let's work as we have in the past as a > team in discovering what these great men of the fur trade found and how they > lived from day to day through good documentation. > > Hey Concho, > > Wow! How big this movement has grown within my life time. Some of you > fellars might ought to try to stop and camp on some of this historic ground > particularly to understand what it takes to winter through. > > Neat to know Buck Conner was writing back in 71 for the Buckskin Report > about experience the life styles of our forefathers. > > Walt > Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 09 Oct 2000 00:18:32 EDT > Haven't talked to you for sometime, last time I saw you was at your doin's at > the river near Lisle, Ill., is that group still in operation - very impressive and well organized. Buck and Concho, Unfortunately, the group went down the tubes. I told them in January of 99 that I couldn't do all the work anymore and needed help. They all agreed, but no one came forward. A couple of months later, we did the same thing. Everyone agreed, but no one came forward. Then I told them that I was resigning and someone needed to take over. No one came forward. They decided to hold a meeting after the event, which they did. I didn't attend, but the group folded because no one was willing to take over. It's now defunct.........people get out of an organization what they put into it. I guess I must have been the one putting everything into it and it was only a social gathering for the rest. The Rendezvous is now held with the help of recruited volunteers. The whole steering committee has changed. I heard that they paid professional actors this year to portray various characters who would have been around the Canal during its heyday. The event will continue, but I think its focus is away from a period correct enactment and more toward a period correct carnival. Too much politics for me. > We all need more like you and yours, thanks. Thanks for the kind words, but I think the days of new folks stepping in and taking over with the zeal and dedication to work that we had are falling by the wayside. We were really the bridge between the generations......old enough to remember "the good old days" and young enough to still become enthused about them. Most of us still had living relatives who participated on the tail end of the Fur Trade. Today's generation doesn't seem to have the connection that we did. Period correct items today are things that yuppies buy off Ebay and hang in their living rooms. They don't seem to care much what they are, only that they are old. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 09 Oct 2000 00:35:29 EDT > You should have never asked "Concho" a question, he hasn't stopped e-mailing > for an hour, probably made the paper kid mad and didn't get the Sunday News, > or the girl friend is out of town. So far he's patted you on the back, made > Pablo mad, and put everyone on the list to sleep, who knows what's next. Buck, That is why he so uniquely suited for his new job. He forgets everything he learns..........therefore he is always learning more new things. <G> I think they call it CRS. > As far as the statement Concho mentioned about your reenactment group in or > near Lisle, ILL - how is it doing and do you still hold your rendezvous ? Read the sorry details in my posting to him. Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD(Keep the Faith) Date: 08 Oct 2000 22:09:08 -0700 Dave, Hi..... I'm hardtack. I just wanted to say...keep the faith. There are still some of us 'youngsters' out here carrying on. I'm 41 years young, with 19 years since my first rdvs.. My children grew up attending rdvs.. I spend the majority of my precious vacation time trekking, attending rdvs., etc... I am close to the 1,000 mile mark via primitive canoe trekking.(can't afford a horse, although I did one 5 day horse trek , great experience). I volunteer to help out with many related activities and doin's. I am not alone! I have many companeros who are my equal, or better. I'm sorry that none of them are aquainted with you , and your doin's. I have a great reverence for my oldsters, and their experiences. I have seen your many postings here, and hope to share a fire with you someday. We all need to be more involved in order for this way of life to survive. Heed the call, work hard to keep the old ways alive. We owe it to the following generations. I'm glad that men like you have cleared the trail for my generation. It's up to us, fellows, to keep the trail cleared. Volunteer.... Keep this way of life alive.... My hat is off to you Dave. Your friend and brother, hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 01:09:22 EDT Howdy Walt We ran that Charlie Russell and that out fit he road for out of Henry Idaho. I heard it was for dressin fun That's when they moved to Montana. I heard they fit right in there. Really old Charlie is a little bit late to even have any thing to do with the fur trade and what was worn. I did not know that they came up with the word Dude about the time you started riding horses. I hope it was not because of any thing you were doing. Fifty years in the saddle, pack up to seven horses at a time and you don't tie nothing down and you have never lost a hat to the wind or a knife or nothing. Man you have got to be the luckiest man on earth. Or is it just getting a mite more windy in Montana? I believe in walking the walk if your going to talk the talk. I always thought Drug Store Cowboys was them fellers that dress the part and talk the talk but don't even know how to walk. When ya learn to run Walt I'll see ya on the trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <conner1@uswest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 09 Oct 2000 06:15:58 -0600 --------------EBF6757419477E5A1096363C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > Buck and Concho, > Unfortunately, the group went down the tubes. I told them in January of 99 > that I couldn't do all the work anymore and needed help. They all agreed, > but no one came forward. A couple of months later, we did the same thing. > Everyone agreed, but no one came forward. Then I told them that I was > resigning and someone needed to take over. No one came forward. They > decided to hold a meeting after the event, which they did. I didn't attend, > but the group folded because no one was willing to take over. It's now > defunct.........people get out of an organization what they put into it. I > guess I must have been the one putting everything into it and it was only a > social gathering for the rest. Been there done that, then returned and did it a few more times when our State Muzzle Loading Assn., it's rendezvous' went on it's butt. It took a dozen years for someone to wake up and learn if they want to play they have to pay (work the program). Sorry to see all your effort was lost, but you have to admit you had fun while involved, now looking back. > We were really the bridge between the generations......old enough to remember > "the good old days" and young enough to still become enthused about them. Most > of us still had living relatives who participated on the tail end of the Fur > Trade. Today's generation doesn't seem to have the connection that we did. > > Dave Kanger Isn't that the truth, we talk about Baird, Long Step, Crazy Bear, Brass Turtle and the Buckskin Report or Charley Hanson, Curly G. or some that showed us the way and many just think we're just old and know nothing. Not realizing that they missed some of the great historians that we have had the chance to know and love, God bless them all. I don't think I ever looked at the Hanson's, Baird, Turner or Clymer as being old, we where interested in history of the fur trade and they had the answers, they where our hero's. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------EBF6757419477E5A1096363C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Buck and Concho, Unfortunately, the group went down the tubes. I told them in January of 99 that I couldn't do all the work anymore and needed help. They all agreed, but no one came forward. A couple of months later, we did the same thing. Everyone agreed, but no one came forward. Then I told them that I was resigning and someone needed to take over. No one came forward. They decided to hold a meeting after the event, which they did. I didn't attend, but the group folded because no one was willing to take over. It's now defunct.........people get out of an organization what they put into it. I guess I must have been the one putting everything into it and it was only a social gathering for the rest.</blockquote> Been there done that, then returned and did it a few more times when our State Muzzle Loading Assn., it's rendezvous' went on it's butt. It took a dozen years for someone to wake up and learn if they want to play they have to pay (work the program). Sorry to see all your effort was lost, but you have to admit you had fun while involved, now looking back. <blockquote TYPE=CITE>We were really the bridge between the generations......old enough to remember "the good old days" and young enough to still become enthused about them. Most of us still had living relatives who participated on the tail end of the Fur Trade. Today's generation doesn't seem to have the connection that we did. Dave Kanger</blockquote> Isn't that the truth, we talk about Baird, Long Step, Crazy Bear, Brass Turtle and the Buckskin Report or Charley Hanson, Curly G. or some that showed us the way and many just think we're just old and know nothing. Not realizing that they missed some of the great historians that we have had the chance to know and love, God bless them all. I don't think I ever looked at the Hanson's, Baird, Turner or Clymer as being old, we where interested in history of the fur trade and they had the answers, they where our hero's. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ </html> --------------EBF6757419477E5A1096363C-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Billy Corgan" <drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 11:16:53 EDT To those whom i have upset, or not: My name is chris riddle. i am a junior in college in ohio. i have other names on my email because i get alot of junk and solicitation via that address, and if they dont know my real name/address/phone number, then i am harder to contact. my email address is drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com i am currently reconfiguring my topic on my paper to: Did the fur trade of the upper missouri river have an impact on the culture of the native americans in that region? from that which i have so read so far, i would say yes. now my goal is to see if i am correct in my first opinion and if what the impacts were. as for my past emails. it is somtimes necessary to drum up some argument to get answers. maybe i was a little ignorant in some of my dealings, and for those i apologize. i am trying to gather a large amount of information, and anything i can get my hands on i plan to. i felt this list would have many great minds on it with many resources at their disposal, so far i have not been disappointed. my statement about man messing up nature i still stand by. no creature in the history of earth has had such an impact on the face of this planet as has man. the building of cities, towns, roads, and many other structures is just the beginning. it is impossible to get away from man on earth. our effects on our planet will be our own demise, and that is just a matter of time. hopefully this email spoke more of my true beliefs and was a bit more mature in its content and nature. again, i thank those of you who have helped me, and any further information would be appreciated. -chris riddle junior environmental policy and analysis major drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 09:41:20 -0600 Howdy Walt We ran that Charlie Russell and that out fit he road for out of Henry Idaho. I heard it was for dressin fun That's when they moved to Montana. I heard they fit right in there. Really old Charlie is a little bit late to even have any thing to do with the fur trade and what was worn. I did not know that they came up with the word Dude about the time you started riding horses. I hope it was not because of any thing you were doing. Fifty years in the saddle, pack up to seven horses at a time and you don't tie nothing down and you have never lost a hat to the wind or a knife or nothing. Man you have got to be the luckiest man on earth. Or is it just getting a mite more windy in Montana? I believe in walking the walk if your going to talk the talk. I always thought Drug Store Cowboys was them fellers that dress the part and talk the talk but don't even know how to walk. When ya learn to run Walt I'll see ya on the trail Crazy Cyot Why, Crazy Cyot: Thanks for uplifting my spirits on this very fine day here in the heart of the American Mountain Man country where I was born and raised. As for Charlie Russell: He came into Montana as a young lad. Rode with the Metis out of Utica. What do you mean "We ran that Charlie Russell..." Better double check your history. Charlie road with some of the last of the mixed bloods who had direct connections to the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. They were called Dude ranches by 1900, here in Montana. I'll will get back to my horse time after I take my wife to the doctors. Actually it is a nice hunting day in south central Montana without much wind. The wind seems to blow in over Montana. Some of it might be coming from your direction VBG Thanks for lifting my cast iron kettle lid before sun up this morning. Have a good day sport. Walt out of his badgerhole Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 09:44:24 -0600 To those whom i have upset, or not: My name is chris riddle. Good come back, Stick to your subject of interest. Don't let the emotional asides side track you. Your interest is worth. Question where the replies are stemming from. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 03 Jan 2000 23:32:56 -0700 Chris, Ecology along with mother nature has a way of healing itself if given enough time. Some Wildlife species for example rebounded in overwhelming numbers. Whitetail deer were almost depleted in areas of the east at the beginning of the 20th century as well as turkey. In fact, even before that, the buffalo was used to supply the meat market back east due to low numbers of game animal available. The pronghorn of Wyoming was low in numbers in the early years. Yet due to good game mgt and game laws, many of these species have returned to unnatual numbers given the available habitat. I like to qoute "Years ago we had islands of civilzation in the wilderness, now we have just the opposite. The defining criterial is winter habitat in the west. This is what we are losing. Some species will adapt easily to encroachment of man, such as raccoons, coyotes, some birds, etc and of coarse cockroaches. Other are more sensitive such as frogs and toads and others of their kind. I do not believe that Fur Trappers imposed a long term effect on the ecology of the east or west that Manifest Destiny in not do over the long run. Nature takes a long time to heal when damaged through man's efforts or Nature itself, (fire, floods, earthquakes) We just do have the privilage of being around long enough to record it. Read Aldo Leopolds book. I'm sure it is still required reading in wildlife classes Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" <hunter1828@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 16:45:44 GMT Ho the List! I am coming into this discussion late. I have been behind on my e-mail and had to delete a bunch of old postings to the list before I had a chance to read them, just sticking to the new ones. So, I have a question for Chris: What have you read in the form of primary and secondary sources so far? If you want to keep our discussion off the list, feel free to e-mail me directly at hunter1828@hotmail.com. I am a ranger with the US National Park Service, and an historian, at Fort Union Trading Post NHS and would like to share some possible source material with you that you may not have looked at. Thanks, Robert W. Thomson "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <snip> i am currently reconfiguring my topic on my paper to: Did the fur trade of the upper missouri river have an impact on the culture of the native americans in that region? from that which i have so read so far, i would say yes. now my goal is to see if i am correct in my first opinion and if what the impacts were. <snip> _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: horses and mules Date: 09 Oct 2000 13:55:18 MDT HO CAMP! crazy cyot'' sorry about getting into this horses thing so late, but my email handler went lame. now walt i'm only 29, just look a little older because iv lead a shamefull life. joking aside, i have been in all sides of the horse buss. bu i have allways tried to relive the fur trade even if it was horse back or trapping. just to see if it could be done like the books. i have scars to show the good and bad. to back up my horse side of life.i hold a world champenship in western performance class, i guided and packed in the bob marshall full time for 3 years.part time and trail road in most of montana wilderness. when i started the griz was just another bear to the fish and game. i know how many mules you can pull and be save and i know how many a good hand can pack and get the goods to camp. i allso have pick up stuff off trails. I do not loss stuff off the pack. have left stuff at camp and from horse recks on the trail. but to fall off,not after first year. i have not need a choke string for my hat in the deep mountains. but then i grew up wearing hats. On the big open country i have used a hat jerk string whele working cows. but hid it in the hat befor i went to town. the pride thing you know. knifes, cannot say i ever lost one out of belt,usless i was in a horse ,mule reck,the i usly lost my pride and alot of hide with my knife. i have left knife at kill sits. the little people of the crow people must have a hell of collection. i try and check my steak cutter. this is enough on this for now. oh,yea, i have that trophy at hiverant metis location if you want to check on me. but come ready to do alittle horse tradeing and a full billfold. my limp is the only trophy i got for guiding and packing. i try and stay away from this past thing(makes me feel old). but SON if you want storys on griz bears,horses,mules and black powder i got the real thing for you, all you have to do is keep the fire going and feed me(and son you haven,t seen me eat). older than 21 ponyrider but more than fifty years of wet saddle blankets than harness leather and buckles make all kinds of neat things but alot of brain tain was around ready to use for what ever _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: buckskinning sub society Date: 09 Oct 2000 14:34:54 MDT walt , concho and camp. i was at a rondie and ran into a couple greeners. they were a goup of profs from some collage( leaving out names for a reason) studing as many mt man type fuctions they xcound. said there were different unv. woundering if buckskinner cound be sub society. also the fact that with a armed camped there seemed to be no confrountation serious jury type. just woundering if ether of you ran into that. damit walt old my ass , you and i will still be shanking our spirs in the ears of broncs and shooting our 1803 ,s yelling get out of my way, here i come. when the time comes. look in the shadow,s behind you i,m there ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: MtMan-List: OT............NRA..........tonight on ABC Date: 09 Oct 2000 13:56:34 -0700 Friends, As some of you may know, tonight on ABC, Peter Jennings will moderate what "appears" to be a expose' ,of sorts, on the NRA. It will involve its dealings within the Congress, Charlton Heston and other topics you might imagine. The previews appear rather interesting. John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: misur trade,no name Date: 09 Oct 2000 15:01:11 MDT people or griz bears disrup the blance of nature just by living. i have read thiss. papers on differen things of the indian and fur trading time,s. make sure you look at whole picture not just your own or from your group of study. you are dealing in the whole scope of things of nature. man is only a weak two legged. becarefull of high ups, native american class that never been in sweats or studiet that never been on the land for all seasons are teaching a class room short a lesson. even with my spelling and mis keys i put my name on the page. a person that fails to use their name doesn>t have the sand to stand in back of what they say. allso if you don,t want anyone to know your name how can we believe your work or want you have to say. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 09 Oct 2000 18:00:07 EDT Hey all you coons out there! Would this here coon be getting a good rifle-gun with that Lyman .50 cal fer as the PC of the rifle is concerned? -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 09 Oct 2000 18:11:07 -0400 I think it is pc for periods 1835 and later. My persona is the 1835 Longhunter and it fits me. It is also a great shooting rifle. I think it is modeled after the original Hawken. I can not wait to hear from all the experts on this one. FVR ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 6:00 PM > Hey all you coons out there! > > Would this here coon be getting a good rifle-gun with that Lyman .50 cal fer > as the PC of the rifle is concerned? > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 16:13:41 -0600 I am a ranger with the US National Park Service, and an historian, at Fort Union Trading Post NHS and would like to share some possible source material with you that you may not have looked at. Thanks, Robert W. Thomson "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union Hello Robert, How did the Fort Union Trading Post gathering go. I have seen little posted about the event. Might consider sharing sources with the list also. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 16:13:44 -0600 Howdy Walt Fifty years in the saddle, pack up to seven horses at a time and you don't tie nothing down and you have never lost a hat to the wind or a knife or nothing. Man you have got to be the luckiest man on earth. Or is it just getting a mite more windy in Montana? I believe in walking the walk if your going to talk the talk. I always thought Drug Store Cowboys was them fellers that dress the part and talk the talk but don't even know how to walk. When ya learn to run Walt I'll see ya on the trail Crazy Cyot Actually it was 54 years ago that I have one of my best memories on my way to becoming a horseman. 1946 was the summer I got my first job up on horse back. I was paid to capitalize on my shooting skills. Admittedly I was a small timer at this time but it was a grand and glorious job for me and I made good hard honest money from my shooting. I had 5 horses at this time. I am talking about Phillipsburg, Montana. Along side Flint Creek about 4 miles below town. The fact is that at that time I could not get up on my horse without help. I learned to coax my horse over to the fence. And get him to stand there. I put my air gun on the fence and climbed the fence. Grab a bit of mane and slide over on the horse. Got my gun. Talked and urged the horse into motion. His movement did not disturb the gophers which were my target. I would shoot one and then guide my horse over to the fence. Reverse the process to get down. Go get the gopher before I lost track of it. And then make the walk to get someone to pump up my Benjamin Air Rifle. Go to my horse and start all over again. Some days I got 5 a shift. Oh ya, I got my second paying job that fall after school. It was sweeping out the sawdust from my father's meat market. I made a dime. Less than I did on horse back. And I felt I was already establishing my self as a hunter nor a broom pusher. Moving on a few years. Shortly after returning from the Army I received word via my Grandfather that his friend Larry Folger was looking for a hand to replace the one let go in Chisana, Alaska. The northern end of the Rocky Mountain chain. I left Dillon, Montana right after the Alaskan earth quake for Larry's outfit. My job was to wrangle 54 head of horses he used in his guiding service there. One of my first assignments was to doctor a horse named Blue. He had suffered a bad cut behind his right hoof from a mispacked camp stove. My first main focus was to learn the expanse of the country he hunted and to learn to know the horses he wanted me to catch. I had to walk 6 to 8 miles in the dark to catch the horses. The one I would ride and lead 5,6 or 7 more. I only had one problem and that was a bear scare. I was expected to be back in camp with them before sunup. Sometimes on the way back I would see the tracks of very big bears over the top of my before light tracks. Larry's hunting trips were 21 days of hunting for 2,500 at the time. The person I replaced could not pack or cook. I will admit that in one way or another I am a lucky man. And I have never lost my knife while on horse back and I have never lost my hat either. I grew up learning the ropes. And as far as horses are concerned I have played my cards right. Just my guess, but I believe I have been running in, among, around and over the mountains as long as you have and maybe a little longer. As you were saying? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 09 Oct 2000 15:50:16 -0700 (PDT) --- HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Hey all you coons out there! Would this here coon be getting a good rifle-gun with that Lyman .50 cal fer as the PC of the rifle is concerned? > -C.Kent Yes, it's an excellent gun to begin with. My Lyman GPR (Great Plains Rifle) kit just came in and this time I'm going to flatten the buttplate's curve a little bit and remove the corresponding wood for a easier mounting and prone shooting as well as off-hand. Don't know about the other two models they offer. ===== defstones Somewhere on this globe, every ten seconds, there is a woman giving birth to a child. She must be found and stopped. Sam Levenson (1911-1980) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 16:51:49 -0600 Chris, Nothing remains the same. If we were not here then what would the conditions be?. We were not here and the Dinaseaurs wen't extinct. It is all worthless, things will equal out on there own. Central America was populated by millions now it is jungle, who would have guessed. We did not hunt the buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to blame, the numbers don't add up. How would you tell an American Horse from a Spanish horse once they got free?. What I am saying is this, there have been a lot of sudo Science put on us for political gain that have never been proven. Think that would make a great paper. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Billy Corgan" <drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: missouri river >Date: Mon, Oct 9, 2000, 9:16 AM > >To those whom i have upset, or not: >My name is chris riddle. >i am a junior in college in ohio. >i have other names on my email because i get alot of junk and solicitation >via that address, and if they dont know my real name/address/phone number, >then i am harder to contact. >my email address is drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com >i am currently reconfiguring my topic on my paper to: >Did the fur trade of the upper missouri river have an impact on the culture >of the native americans in that region? >from that which i have so read so far, i would say yes. >now my goal is to see if i am correct in my first opinion and if what the >impacts were. >as for my past emails. it is somtimes necessary to drum up some argument to >get answers. maybe i was a little ignorant in some of my dealings, and for >those i apologize. i am trying to gather a large amount of information, and >anything i can get my hands on i plan to. i felt this list would have many >great minds on it with many resources at their disposal, so far i have not >been disappointed. >my statement about man messing up nature i still stand by. no creature in >the history of earth has had such an impact on the face of this planet as >has man. the building of cities, towns, roads, and many other structures is >just the beginning. it is impossible to get away from man on earth. our >effects on our planet will be our own demise, and that is just a matter of >time. >hopefully this email spoke more of my true beliefs and was a bit more mature >in its content and nature. again, i thank those of you who have helped me, >and any further information would be appreciated. >-chris riddle >junior >environmental policy and analysis major >drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 16:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Amen. I quoth: There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we don't know. Ambrose Bierce (1842 - 1914) --- "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> wrote: > Chris, > Nothing remains the same. If we were not here then > what would the conditions > be?. We were not here and the Dinaseaurs wen't > extinct. It is all worthless, > things will equal out on there own. Central America > was populated by > millions now it is jungle, who would have guessed. > We did not hunt the > buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to > blame, the numbers don't > add up. How would you tell an American Horse from a > Spanish horse once they > got free?. What I am saying is this, there have been > a lot of sudo Science > put on us for political gain that have never been > proven. Think that would > make a great paper. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- ===== defstones Somewhere on this globe, every ten seconds, there is a woman giving birth to a child. She must be found and stopped. Sam Levenson (1911-1980) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 17:10:24 -0600 How would you tell an American Horse from a Spanish horse once they got free?. Ole # 718 Hi Ole, The Spanish Barb has one less vertebra. The horses in the Pryor Mountains in Montana fit this description. Sometimes science comes of with good stuff. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" <hunter1828@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 23:24:51 GMT Walt, The symposium was excellent! We had over 200 attendees, which is twice the size of the last symposium here, which was in 1990. Talks and papers presented included such topics as "The Role of the Assiniboin in the Fort Union Fur Trade", "Rueben Lewis in the Upper Missouri Fur Trade", and "Reconstructing Fort Union". James Hanson gave and excellent talk after the Friday lunch entitled "Why I'm Fascinated with the Fur Trade". That was probably my favorite talk of all, followed closely by Dayton Duncan's talk on Lewis and Clark at the Confluence. The living history event at Fort Union was superb, even if it was a short three hours long. With the likes of John Luzader, Bruce "Spoon" Druliner, Michael Terry, Rex Norman, and many, many others, including all the local talent, participating. Many thanks to all that attended, and any that participated! Robert "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Hello Robert, How did the Fort Union Trading Post gathering go. I have seen little posted about the event. Might consider sharing sources with the list also. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] A Few Carry The Load To Much. Date: 09 Oct 2000 17:38:04 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > Buck and Concho, > Unfortunately, the group went down the tubes. I told them in January of 99 > that I couldn't do all the work anymore and needed help. They all agreed, > but no one came forward. A couple of months later, we did the same thing. > Everyone agreed, but no one came forward. Then I told them that I was > resigning and someone needed to take over. No one came forward........... > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- Sorry to hear that Dave, it sure was good when we saw you back there. Buck Conner, Trapper Tom, and several others did the same thing for the Colorado State Muzzle Loading Assoc., worked their butts off for 12 or so years and couldn't get any help. A week before a major event some good old boys from Daniel Texas would always show up and work day and night on helping to setup whatever was needed. Butcher York was still a Major with the Colo. Nat. Guard and would furnish all the hospital tents needed for scoring, reg., etc. A funny thing happened with those Texas boys, they where hauling tents in a Nat.Guard 6X6 past the Commander of the post, the Commander about dropped his teeth when he saw the 6X6 was Colordao National Guard with Texas flags flying on the front fenders. They where the good old days, thanks to those Texas boys by the name of Furlows. Never see that kind of effort anymore or if you do it's still a few carrying the load, pretty sad. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 19:00:15 -0600 >Just my guess, but I believe I have been running in, >among, around and over the mountains as long as you have and maybe a little >longer. >Walt >Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 >Clark Bottom Rendezvous > Walt, There's a difference between a man in the mountains, and a mountain man. Allen in Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: stampede strings Date: 09 Oct 2000 19:48:16 -0700 I lost my hat out on a trip once I had to go bare headed a couple of days the sun burned me up something awful suffered fever and chills all night. You won't catch me without a stampede string on my, "very necessary for comfort and survival" hat. just some thoughts; Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:16:19 -0600 I have a 54 cal Lyman Trade Gun which I have used for about 8 years, if I can help- let me know. mike. HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Hey all you coons out there! > > Would this here coon be getting a good rifle-gun with that Lyman .50 cal fer > as the PC of the rifle is concerned? > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:06:27 -0600 Walt, There's a difference between a man in the mountains, and a mountain man. Allen in Fort Hall country Yep, Allen: There sure is. The Metis built Fort Hall as well as Fort Union. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: stampede strings Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:06:30 -0600 I lost my hat out on a trip once I had to go bare headed a couple of days the sun burned me up something awful suffered fever and chills all night. You won't catch me without a stampede string on my, "very necessary for comfort and survival" hat. just some thoughts; Tom Hi Tom, I stayed out of that desert country. I never did like the heat. Didn't you have a rag of something you could shade your head with? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fort Union September 2000 Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:08:13 -0600 Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union Hi Robert, I spoke with Ron Tewalt from Sidney today he gave a glowing reports. I know Michael Terry. I have been seeing Bad Hand on the little horn every year for quite a while. He is an event all by himself. Everything is going to keep on growing with the Lewis and Clark Bicentennial starting up. You have a great place there. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:08:15 -0600 There's a difference between a man in the mountains, and a mountain man. Allen in Fort Hall country Boy you got that right. Might surprise you that the Metis build Fort Hall as well as Fort Union. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:51:13 -0600 At 09:06 PM 10/09/2000 -0600, you wrote: >The Metis built Fort Hall as well as Fort Union. > >Walt >Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 How interesting. Did they come out with Nat Wyeth? I'd love to hear your documentation on that. Wyeth didn't seem to mention it...... Hey, I got a question. Is Al Gore Metis? Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: stampede strings Date: 09 Oct 2000 22:30:15 -0700 hey Walt, I did have a bandanna I tied it around my head pirate style. it helped a little but was'nt enough. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 8:06 PM > I lost my hat out on a trip once I had to go bare headed a couple of days > the sun burned me up something awful suffered fever and chills all night. > You won't catch me without a stampede string on my, "very necessary for > comfort and survival" hat. > just some thoughts; Tom > > > Hi Tom, > > I stayed out of that desert country. I never did like the heat. Didn't you > have a rag of something you could shade your head with? > > Walt > Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 > Clark Bottom Rendezvous > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis Date: 09 Oct 2000 23:13:55 -0600 Hey, I got a question. Is Al Gore Metis? Allen Hi Allen, Beats me. You might be in a better position to answer that than I am. We mostly vote Republican around here. I do know that there were several Metis with Lewis and Clark. Do you have a list of the names of the crew that built Fort Hall Trading Post? I have a question for you. What does the word Metis mean? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis Date: 09 Oct 2000 23:27:22 -0600 Walt, At 11:13 PM 10/09/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Do you have a list of the names of the crew that built Fort Hall Trading >Post? Good try. You made the statement that Metis built Fort Hall. I'm still interested in your documentation. > >I have a question for you. What does the word Metis mean? > Another good try. You tell the list. Maybe our difficulty here is a definition of terms. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 10 Oct 2000 08:37:11 -0600 Jon, I know book of Mormon Scripture prety well, but I don't remember that. could you give me scripture and verse. YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses >Date: Thu, Oct 5, 2000, 9:47 PM > >Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent as >a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction (except for >1 man who survived for 9 months) of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C. >[non-American Indian civilization]. > >Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the >Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the >Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = >Lamanite]. > >Only ~ 10% of the archaeological sites of Central and South America have >been uncovered. Much is still hidden, but what will come forth will be >mind-boggling (an understatement to say the least). > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >from Michigan >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> Subject: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG Date: 10 Oct 2000 13:12:56 -0400 Those of you who missed Mississnewa, missed a great time. Once again the AMM camps shined. Most of the AMM bros. gave talks or lectures to the public as they came by and looked and asked questions about their camps, clothing, accouterments, foods and many others things. The reenacted battles were said to be very good and thrilled the crowds. (I didn`t see them). The military surgeon done several demonstrations on medical operations. I got to see two of these demos. The victim was your all time favorite Dennis Miles wife (Gwen). The first he shot her in the arm as she tried to run away. The Dr. was removing the ball from her arm. The Dr. with the forceps pitched the ball into the crowd, had fake blood on it. Everyone jumped when he threw it, hit a 10-12 yr boy in the arm. You had to see the boys face to enjoy the surprise on it. As the Dr. removed the ball some conversation between the Doc and Dennis took place. After Dennis told his side a little old lady was heard to say as she looked Dennis straight in the eye, "you bastard". Needless to say ole Dennis wasn`t her favorite. Gwen was a great patience and actress. Her moans and screams came at the exact correct times. One little boy got to keep the ball. I believe he will remember Mississnewa 1812 for years to come. I do believe some of the public at first thought a real accident had happened. The star of the AMM camp was none other than Parker (ramrod) Moore and his famous horse Blackie. Parker gave many lectures on the horse and equipage. Told about every aspect of his chacter portrayal. He had lots of furs, trade items and a camp that reflected his chacter. He participated in the battles. In one battle a horse wreck occurred by accident. Thank the good Lord no one got hurt. The other guy had broken tack. Both riders were sore and a little stiff the next day. Parker and Blackie were undamaged. When Parker spoke the public were 15-20 people deep trying to see and listen. The local newspaper done a full page article about Parker and Blackie. I`m not going to tell about the newspaper article as I feel Parker should have the bragging rites to this. Your damn rite he deserves to Brag. There were several states represented in the AMM camp. I will probably miss a state or two, forgive me if I miss your state. There was Ohio, Ind., Mich., New Joisey, Ky. Thats all I remember. For the second year in a row your AMM brothers were asked to tend the bar at the dance. Honestly they were !!! Can you imagine a fox being thrown into the hen house GGGGG. We were all gentle men and conducted ourselves as such. I seen it with me own eyes. The next time you Bros. camp with your eastern Bros. ask about the wench with the large chest and her pewter serving tray and goblets. Their was also many, many fine suttlers in attendance with many period correct items. The food purveyors had many correct delicious foods. Hard to decide what to eat. Was many fine foods prepared in the AMM camp too. Some friends of Parkers also from Joisey prepared a brunswick stew that they shared with us. I HAVE NEVER EATEN A STEW THAT TASTE THAT GOOD. Sorry I don`t remember their name. From overhearing others conversations, I think there was several ranking officers of the AMM in attendance. Won`t try to name them as I only know one or two of them. If their would of been a competion for camps, I know the AMM would of taken all prizes. Though Mississnewa is a jurried event, the AMM camps were jurried much stricter. All camps were neat and orderly and correct as we could of gotten them. Your bro. Ron (don`t know last name) had some beautiful powder horns out for sale and trade. He gave many talks on them to the public. Told how they were made from the cow head and buff head to the finished product on his blanket. Though I am not an AMM member, my friend Mad Mike and yours truly Big John have been guests in many AMM camps. We were accepted as one of your own, and treated great. We have made many AMM friends. It is very easy to see first hand why the AMM is called a brotherhood. Be polite, and treat them as you want to be treated and you have no problems. Come in with the know-it-all attitude, and they will grease your ass and slide you on down the trail. we have learned many things in the camps, given demonstrations on how to do skills. Will teach you till you get it correct. Though I have only mentioned a few names there were many others who added to this event. Time and space and memory have run out. nuff sed, out of words. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. Date: 10 Oct 2000 17:15:39 GMT Seems to me that Osborne Russel was left behind with a handful of other men to build Ft. Hall, I know Russel wasn't Metis, and I'm quite sure the rest were'nt either. Walt, I must wonder if you could be wrong about this?? Remember the thisle/cattail root debate!! Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. Date: 10 Oct 2000 11:57:04 -0600 Seems to me that Osborne Russel was left behind with a handful of other men to build Ft. Hall, I know Russel wasn't Metis, and I'm quite sure the rest were'nt either. Walt, I must wonder if you could be wrong about this?? Remember the thisle/cattail root debate!! Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ No Chance. I got a pretty good memory. I figure if I am right 90% of the time on 90% of the stuff. I am doing pretty good. I see you are using a Metis expression in your name tag. Want to bet that neck bag back> Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. Date: 10 Oct 2000 18:30:35 GMT Walt, Just show me the facts!! You seem to be crawfishin' a bit. What do you have that shows the Metis built Ft. Hall?? If you got it, I'll eat crow, and gladly return the neck bag!! I have nothing against the Metis or those interested in them. The Motto included in my signature is that of the Brotherhood of the American Mountain Men, it's origin, Metis or otherwise is unimportant to me. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:04:06 -0400 Right nice things you said, John.. And ye know yer allays welcome... Mike too. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 10 Oct 2000 14:07:16 -0500 At 02:58 PM 10/8/00 -0700, you wrote: >On another topic, was it common for old cross-cut saws to be recycled into >knives, in the fur trade era ? I have a old skinnin knife that appears to >have been home made from a very old saw blade. Pendelton, If a saw was broken beyond repair the steel would be used to make other tools, a similar fate came to worn and/or broken files. Nothing would be thrown away. Look deep into yours. How was the saw made and subsequently how was the knife made? Can you identify the tooth pattern that was on the saw? Is the mode of manufacture consistent with technology common before 1840? How is the grip mounted? Was the kns.opforged, filed or ground? Show us a picture. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. Date: 10 Oct 2000 13:58:05 -0600 Walt, Just show me the facts The motto, it's origin, Metis or otherwise is unimportant to me. Cliff Tiffie --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! Cliff, It pays to know your roots in this sport. Walt out of his badgerhole Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! Date: 10 Oct 2000 20:34:42 GMT I'm not familiar with the Metis, being from the southern end of the plains but we had Comancheros & Ciboleros here and I was under the impression they were basically the same profession, just different ethnic groups...is this true? If it is why do so many seem to hold these guys up as "Holymen" of the Northern plains? The discussions have been kinda biased towards these guys..were they really that great or are they just regional heroes? Not that it's really that important to me but where is the documentation for the Metis fort builders that has been dodged so fervently of late? If you're gonna bring it up back it up! On a different subject...what is the consensus out there about the hybrid saddles being used in the furtrade? I was considering getting one made up but am not sure of the durability of such a delicately constructed saddle...any thoughts? AND while I'm on the horse business...I haven't been riding half as long as some of you guys(I haven't been alive half as long as some of you guys!) but learned real quick that unless you wear your hat "rodeo" style ie. pulled down to your ears and the right wind catches it it's coming off unless it's tied down, but that's just my short accumulation of experience...I may be wrong?! Look forward to any comments. Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:36:21 -0500 > I think it is pc for periods 1835 and later. My persona is the 1835 > Longhunter and it fits me. It is also a great shooting rifle. I think it > is modeled after the original Hawken. I can not wait to hear from all the > experts on this one. > > The Great Plains rifle ain't nothing' like a Hawken. More like an Ohio styled gun, in archetecture, well, almost, kinda like an Ohio style, with the light stock, thin wrist, and light weight barrel. Hawkens were very heavily built with thick wrists, and for the most part, heavy barrels. The only production gun that I am aware of that even came close to a real Hawken is the old Santa Fe Hawken made by Uberti several years ago. I have seen and handled a few original Hawkens, so I can say that there, currently, are no production guns that even remotely resemble an original Hawken in archetecture, much less come close to the weight, feel and quality of the original guns Oh, and Frank, the time of the longhunter was long gone by 1800. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:52:16 -0500 Ole Jenson said, <. We did not hunt the buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to blame> Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction. Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was the main cause. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG Date: 10 Oct 2000 16:56:24 -0400 >. The next time you Bros. camp with your eastern > Bros. ask about the wench with the large chest and her pewter serving tray > and goblets. > Don't you DARE stop here!! You have GOT to finish this story!! *grins* Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:05:30 GMT Scott, I havn't heard any glowing reports on the Hybrid saddle, the only list member I know that has ridden one is Richard Ashburn. Maybe he can shed some light. I have viewed several, some new, some with several miles on them. They all looked weak to me, and some were already showing extreme wear to the padding. There was a large party that rode into the 99 AMM nationals on hybrids, with some complaints of sore backs. Those saddles were for sale. Several of those men were riding spanish trees again when I saw them this summer. It would appear that they prefer the spanish tree. I'm quite sure that the hybrid saddle we see today is a good representation of what Grimsley manufactured, and that brigades were outfitted with them. The success or failure of the saddle is unfortunately lost. Sure wish you could have made it to Lawton, it was a grand time. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 14:27:41 -0700 > Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were > decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue > the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. Frank, That is the popularized version but there is evidence that suggests rather compellingly that such was not strictly the case. > Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction. > Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was > the main cause. The point can be made that while market hunters may have contributed to the near extinction, it is mathematically impossible for the hunters that were involved and considering the records of hides and such shipped that all the buffalo were killed by the hand of man. Either there weren't as many buffalo as is claimed or a disease decimated the herds to the point that what commercial and vandalistic (I won't call it sport hunting) hunting did go on only served to take the remaining herds down to a level that they could not support themselves biologically much less support a traditional plains indian culutre. Now I don't have the articles and the numbers at hand but it was compelling and worth giving the whole business a second look. Kinda like claiming the Indians where Environmetalists and modern man is a spoiler of nature. Neither premise is completely true. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:50:06 -0600 Frank, I will do this from memory so cut me some slack. Lewis and Clark estimated that there were 60 Milion Bison on the plains, now even if there were 40 Million, that is 1/3 less the birth rate would be around 27 million per year. Even with a death rate of 40% from old age and over hunting this would leave 40.2 million left which is a net gain of around 20 thousand. Taking into account that the smokeless cartridge did not realy come into use until the late 1880's this would mean that all 40 million Buffalo were killed by Black Powder weapons and Bow's and Arrows. Another thing to remember is that the Buffalo trade was heavily regulated and the number of hides harvested were counted and taxed and the record does not come up to anything close to 40 million. The conclusion that I and many others have come up with is this, that Bovine Diseases killed the Buffalo in the same way that Smallpox whiped out the Mandan. this is not to say that there was not a government policy to Desimate the tribes by destroying there food supply, there was that. (See Buckskin Report around 1979) Propoganda for Political action is where the story comes from. We have also been lead to belive that the Horse was not on this Continent until the Spanish braught them here, I am starting to belive that this is also based on bad science. the Vikings were known to travel with small horses like the Barb, What about the Spanish,French,Dutch,English,Portugese, what about the notion Catlin put forth concerning the oregins of the Mandan tribe. things to think about. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> >To: "AMM" <hist_text@xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 2:52 PM > >Ole Jenson said, > > <. We did not hunt the >buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to blame> > > Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were >decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue >the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. > Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction. >Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was >the main cause. >Frank G. Fusco >Mountain Home, Arkansas > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:55:27 -0600 Cliff, The "Hybrid Saddle" that Grimsley made was not the Saddle that he made for the Fur Trade. The Hybrid Saddle was specified by the War Dept. for use of the 1st Mounted Dragoons. (See Man Made Mobile) YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 3:05 PM > >Scott, > >I havn't heard any glowing reports on the Hybrid saddle, the only list >member I know that has ridden one is Richard Ashburn. Maybe he can shed >some light. I have viewed several, some new, some with several miles on >them. They all looked weak to me, and some were already showing extreme >wear to the padding. There was a large party that rode into the 99 AMM >nationals on hybrids, with some complaints of sore backs. Those saddles >were for sale. Several of those men were riding spanish trees again when I >saw them this summer. It would appear that they prefer the spanish tree. >I'm quite sure that the hybrid saddle we see today is a good representation >of what Grimsley manufactured, and that brigades were outfitted with them. >The success or failure of the saddle is unfortunately lost. >Sure wish you could have made it to Lawton, it was a grand time. > > >Cliff Tiffie >PO Box 5089 >Durant, OK >74702 >580-924-4187 >--------------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:59:32 -0600 Capt, I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 3:27 PM > > >> Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were >> decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to >subdue >> the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. > >Frank, > >That is the popularized version but there is evidence that suggests rather >compellingly that such was not strictly the case. > >> Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near >extinction. >> Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing >was >> the main cause. > >The point can be made that while market hunters may have contributed to the >near extinction, it is mathematically impossible for the hunters that were >involved and considering the records of hides and such shipped that all the >buffalo were killed by the hand of man. Either there weren't as many buffalo >as is claimed or a disease decimated the herds to the point that what >commercial and vandalistic (I won't call it sport hunting) hunting did go on >only served to take the remaining herds down to a level that they could not >support themselves biologically much less support a traditional plains >indian culutre. > > >Now I don't have the articles and the numbers at hand but it was compelling >and worth giving the whole business a second look. Kinda like claiming the >Indians where Environmetalists and modern man is a spoiler of nature. >Neither premise is completely true. I remain..... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Field reports and records of so many market hunters and vandalistic shooters (plus Native American legends) say, over and over, that they went out and NEVER found "ANY LIVE" buffalo last seen from the previous year. Now THAT'S rather sudden as if an epidemic came in with the winter winds. Archaelogy may yet find conclusive evidence to support the bovine dis-ease decimation theory. --- Frank Fusco <frankf@centurytel.net> wrote: > Ole Jenson said, > > <. We did not hunt the > buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to > blame> > > Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that > the buffalo were > decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter > in an attempt to subdue > the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. > Also over hunting by market hunters contributed > to the near extinction. > Disease may have been a factor but killing just for > the sake of killing was > the main cause. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas ===== defstones I'm living so far beyond my income that we may almost be said to be living apart. e e cummings ) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 10 Oct 2000 22:24:25 GMT "Grimsley was aware of the Spanish saddle as it's popularity had spread to Missouri from the Spanish/Mexican southwest. In the 1820's, he merged the best qualities of the Spanish saddle; the simple rugged construction of the tree, deep square seat and saddle horn, with the established and trusted flat seat of the English saddle. He took English saddle padding and applied it to the Spanish tree for rider comfort and to protect the horse. He attached russet leather skirts, thin leather straps and metal stirrups, also of English origin and created a true hybrid saddle." This quote if from "Dress and Equipage of the mountain men." Grimsley went on to sell an abundance of saddles to the AFC. Wes Housler brought the majority of the information to surface on this saddle, and is producing it through his outfit. No example of this saddle has survived, so the reproduction is purely speculation. I don't like it, but that don't mean it wasn't there. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:55:29 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:59 PM > Capt, > I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money. > YMOS > Ole # 718 Ole, I was just too impatient for your much more detailed report. <G> I figured you or someone else would come up with the figures but couldn't wait to start putting it into perspective. I'm glad you jumped in. There were horses here before Columbus but they were probably eaten or otherwise gone before the Spanish brought their stock and riding skills over. Whether the Vikings brought horses in sustainable numbers is very questionable since Eastern and Northeastern Tribes didn't have a horse culture intact with the colonial movement of northern Europeans. In other words the Indian may have seen horses on this continent a long time ago but didn't realize that they could be domesticated so easily and thus only saw them as a food source. As successful as the Plains Indian was with raising horses, it is hard to believe that they had such capabilities and lost them before Columbus. Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure? There is speculation (and we should be honest about this) that many of the land mammals on this continent and that originated on this continent may have fallen victim to the new encroachment of Prehistoric Indians and changing climactic conditions or some similar mix of events. Thus the pre-Columbian Indian may have hunted many animals to extinction or played a big role in that extinction. Just as Kennewick Man gives rise to much speculation as to who the "First People" really were, there are many questions related to the prehistory of this Continent that are only now being addressed much less answered. It's fun to speculate about the Mandans, the Vikings, the horse, etc. but nothing is proof without considerable archeological evidence and most of what has been written is proving to have been too simple an explanation, re. the Bearing Land Bridge Migration Route. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Cliff, The fact that there is not any of these saddles around, may indicate they were not sucessful. If they were good, they would probably would have been repaired or reproduced.The good stays, and the bad is usually weeded out !! Looks like a failure to me. Just my $00.02 George --- Chance Tiffie <bossloper@hotmail.com> wrote: > . > (The success or failure of the saddle is > unfortunately lost.) > > > > Cliff Tiffie > PO Box 5089 > Durant, OK > 74702 > 580-924-4187 > --------------------- > Aux Aliments de Pays! > > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! Date: 10 Oct 2000 17:05:42 -0600 I'm not familiar with the Metis, being from the southern end of the plains but we had Comancheros & Ciboleros here and I was under the impression they were basically the same profession, just different ethnic groups...is this true Sincerely, Scott McMahon Hello Scott, I do not think so. Texas is a long ways from the Children of the Fur Trade. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! Date: 10 Oct 2000 17:05:45 -0600 AND while I'm on the horse business...I haven't been riding half as long as some of you guys(I haven't been alive half as long as some of you guys!) but learned real quick that unless you wear your hat "rodeo" style ie. pulled down to your ears and the right wind catches it it's coming off unless it's tied down, but that's just my short accumulation of experience...I may be wrong?! Look forward to any comments. Sincerely, Scott McMahon Scott, Them stiff new hats don't do real well in the mountains unless they are broke in. Down to the ears is good. Learn to lean into the wind. It is a long ways from here to Texas. I do not know much about Texas. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 17:10:15 -0600 Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure? YMOS Capt. Lahti' The Viking horse was not the Spanish Barb. The Vikings used the Shetland pony. The horse was used to carry the armor of the Viking after unloading both the horse and the armor from the long ship(s) VBG Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:40:44 -0500 Date: 10 Oct 2000 17:39:09 -0600 Did anybody else see Todd Glover's letter to the editor in the November = 2000 issue of Popular Mechanics, praising the magazine for running a = Ruger handgun ad? Way to go Todd. YF&B Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:40:01 -0400 Can not comment much on the Uberti vs the LPR, I do know that the old timers that I asked when I was getting started told me that out of all the production guns I could buy, the Lyman Plains Rifle was the closest when it came to looks and the weight. I can tell you that the LPR is a very heavy rifle weighing in at 9lbs. I was also told that I could show up to Friendship with this rifle and shoot it without any problems. Now on the Longhunter era. I believe the beginning of the "boschloper" / "coureur de bois" was sometime in the late 1700's. I also believe that the Longhunter era ranged into the early 1800's. Now I guess it depends on what years you consider early. I do not plan on changing my persona as my half Indian half White man dress suits me fine. At the rendezvous I attend, I seem to fit in with the mountain men and the Indians just fine. Since I am down here in Georgia in the South, I may fit more into the persona of the Canebrake. These were whitemen who took Indian wives and lived like the Indians. Yeh, that's me but since I am not a true Southerner, I will stay with the Longhunter. JD, thanks for the input. I see that I will half to do more research. > > > I think it is pc for periods 1835 and later. My persona is the 1835 > > Longhunter and it fits me. It is also a great shooting rifle. I think it > > is modeled after the original Hawken. I can not wait to hear from all the > > experts on this one. > > > > > The Great Plains rifle ain't nothing' like a Hawken. More like an Ohio > styled > gun, in archetecture, well, almost, kinda like an Ohio style, with the light > stock, > thin wrist, and light weight barrel. Hawkens were very heavily built with > thick > wrists, and for the most part, heavy barrels. > > The only production gun that I am aware of that even came close to a real > Hawken is the old Santa Fe Hawken made by Uberti several years ago. > > I have seen and handled a few original Hawkens, so I can say that there, > currently, are no production guns that even remotely resemble an original > Hawken in archetecture, much less come close to the weight, feel and > quality of the original guns > > Oh, and Frank, the time of the longhunter was long gone by 1800. > J.D. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:20:37 -0500 On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:56:24 -0400 "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> writes: > >. The next time you Bros. camp with your eastern > > Bros. ask about the wench with the large chest and her pewter > serving tray > > and goblets. Mr. Hunt, I am NOT interested in this wench or her accoutrement <G>, but I am interested in learning more about Parker Moore and his famous horse Blackie. Do you know if Mr. Parker has an email address or web page? Thanks, Victoria > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Parker Moore & Blackie Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:26:22 -0500 . "Mr. Hunt, I am NOT interested in this wench or her accoutrement <G>, but I am interested in learning more about Parker Moore and his famous horse Blackie. Do you know if Mr. Parker has an email address or web page?" Thanks, Victoria Victoria, You are absolutely correct, anyone who knows Parker and has spent any time with him will tell you that he is truly a very interesting character. Very interesting. <VBG> Randy Hedden "Harddog" On the Great Sauk Trail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 10 Oct 2000 18:48:41 -0600 Cliff, I have handled the Hybrid Saddle about 5 years back, and it had Grimsley's stamp on it. In Man Made Mobile there are two letters from Grimsley to the War Dept.. The first letter is a proposal to the war department which describes the spanish saddle he had furnished to the fur company. The second letter describes the saddle which they had requested he build, you will find that the two letters are describing diferent saddles. So as I said the "Hybrid" saddle was not sold to the fur company, that is not to say some of them did not see service during the fur trade. YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 4:24 PM > > > >"Grimsley was aware of the Spanish saddle as it's popularity had spread to >Missouri from the Spanish/Mexican southwest. In the 1820's, he merged the >best qualities of the Spanish saddle; the simple rugged construction of the >tree, deep square seat and saddle horn, with the established and trusted >flat seat of the English saddle. He took English saddle padding and applied >it to the Spanish tree for rider comfort and to protect the horse. He >attached russet leather skirts, thin leather straps and metal stirrups, also >of English origin and created a true hybrid saddle." This quote if from >"Dress and Equipage of the mountain men." Grimsley went on to sell an >abundance of saddles to the AFC. Wes Housler brought the majority of the >information to surface on this saddle, and is producing it through his >outfit. No example of this saddle has survived, so the reproduction is >purely speculation. I don't like it, but that don't mean it wasn't there. > >Cliff Tiffie >PO Box 5089 >Durant, OK >74702 >580-924-4187 >--------------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. Date: 10 Oct 2000 18:57:48 -0600 At 01:58 PM 10/10/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Walt, >Just show me the facts The motto, it's origin, Metis or otherwise is >unimportant to me. > >Cliff Tiffie > --------------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! Walt, Aux Aliments de Pays is French. Not Metis. If some of the Metis used French, that doesn't mean they invented it. Or built Fort Hall, or were the pivitol force in the fur trade era. This is absolutely no slam on the Metis people. But you are claiming, so far with no documentation, far more than they did. >It pays to know your roots in this sport. > It sure does...... Allen Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 18:51:45 -0600 Capt, Exactly right! YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 4:55 PM > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:59 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] > > >> Capt, >> I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money. >> YMOS >> Ole # 718 > >Ole, > >I was just too impatient for your much more detailed report. <G> I figured >you or someone else would come up with the figures but couldn't wait to >start putting it into perspective. I'm glad you jumped in. > >There were horses here before Columbus but they were probably eaten or >otherwise gone before the Spanish brought their stock and riding skills >over. Whether the Vikings brought horses in sustainable numbers is very >questionable since Eastern and Northeastern Tribes didn't have a horse >culture intact with the colonial movement of northern Europeans. In other >words the Indian may have seen horses on this continent a long time ago but >didn't realize that they could be domesticated so easily and thus only saw >them as a food source. As successful as the Plains Indian was with raising >horses, it is hard to believe that they had such capabilities and lost them >before Columbus. > >Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had >was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure? > > There is speculation (and we should be honest about this) that many of the >land mammals on this continent and that originated on this continent may >have fallen victim to the new encroachment of Prehistoric Indians and >changing climactic conditions or some similar mix of events. Thus the >pre-Columbian Indian may have hunted many animals to extinction or played a >big role in that extinction. > >Just as Kennewick Man gives rise to much speculation as to who the "First >People" really were, there are many questions related to the prehistory of >this Continent that are only now being addressed much less answered. It's >fun to speculate about the Mandans, the Vikings, the horse, etc. but nothing >is proof without considerable archeological evidence and most of what has >been written is proving to have been too simple an explanation, re. the >Bearing Land Bridge Migration Route. I remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 18:55:24 -0600 Walt, Yes they used the Shetland, but there was another small horse they used as well. But I can't remember the name of the breed. YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 5:10 PM > >Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had >was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure? > > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > >The Viking horse was not the Spanish Barb. The Vikings used the Shetland >pony. The horse was used to carry the armor of the Viking after unloading >both the horse and the armor from the long ship(s) VBG > > >Walt >Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 >Clark Bottom Rendezvous >Yellowstone Canoe Camp >On the Lewis & Clark Trail >Park City, Montana > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 11 Oct 2000 01:19:17 GMT Mr. Jensen, I do not have a copy of "Man Made Mobile." I have read it a couple of times though. Does the letter written to the war dept. describe the spanish saddle as having pads or skirts, also what is the dates of the correspondence?? Records show the sell of "spanish" saddles, bare or "complete," interpreted to mean padded, and rigged with skirts. If that is the case then those were hybrid saddles. I had the pleasure of hearing Clay Landry speak on AFC records at the Fur Trade Symposium last month, and one item he addressed was saddles. His research has shown that the term "spanish," had nothing to do with the origin of the saddle, but described the type of tree. If that is the case then couldn't it be possible, that some of Grimsley's "spanish" saddles were hybrids?? Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:37:39 -0400 > Do you know if Mr. Parker has an email address or web page? > >>He does not D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 12 Oct 2000 21:36:19 -0400 frank we hammered the buffilo thing to death last year---got blood thursty and all you might look at the archives and see what everyone decided on---just my humbel opinion no flack--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:03:11 -0700 "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Walt, > Yes they used the Shetland, but there was another small horse they used as > well. Hallo the Camp...... There is a small horse called (if my memory serves), the Icelandic horse. Smallish, hairy, and sturdy. Of Nordic origions I believe. I did not know the seafarers of the north took their horses with them. Had to have been hard on them in those boats. The shetland pony I believe is of Britanic origions and was used as a tiny draft horse in the mines. As I am work, I do not have my books handy to verify this all this. Regards Lee of North Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:38:02 -0700 John, Thanks for the response. I don't have a picture of the knife, and my damn scanner is a real pain to use, so I'll describe the knife as best I can. It has most likely been rehandled, that's just a guess. The slabs are of an unknown wood attached by 4 copper pins, roughly peened over. 2 of the pins have small copper washers on them. The blade is of the same size, shape, and design as a Green River Skinner. There are no markings on it of any kind. It is a little thinner than a new Green River Skinner, and it is not as smooth on the sides. There are slight indentions that run the length of the blade that indicate it may have been cut from a handforged saw blade. Now before anyone jumps in here, it ain't no damn Old Hickory. These marks are not stamped into it. They may or may not be hammer marks. What do you think ? I'll get a picture made of it one of these days. Pendleton -----Original Message----- At 02:58 PM 10/8/00 -0700, you wrote: >On another topic, was it common for old cross-cut saws to be recycled into >knives, in the fur trade era ? I have a old skinnin knife that appears to >have been home made from a very old saw blade. Pendelton, If a saw was broken beyond repair the steel would be used to make other tools, a similar fate came to worn and/or broken files. Nothing would be thrown away. Look deep into yours. How was the saw made and subsequently how was the knife made? Can you identify the tooth pattern that was on the saw? Is the mode of manufacture consistent with technology common before 1840? How is the grip mounted? Was the kns.opforged, filed or ground? Show us a picture. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:12:20 -0700 Roger and All, We kicked this subject at length about a year ago. I was of the opinon it was Brucellosis that played a major role in the decline of the Buffalo, but others had documentaion otherwise. I still believe disease had to have had a part in it. As you have stated the numbers in the hide counts just don't add up. Plus the fact that it is debateable that it was not possible to haul that much powder and lead to the Plains. Pendleton -----Original Message----- > Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were > decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue > the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. Frank, That is the popularized version but there is evidence that suggests rather compellingly that such was not strictly the case. > Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction. > Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was > the main cause. The point can be made that while market hunters may have contributed to the near extinction, it is mathematically impossible for the hunters that were involved and considering the records of hides and such shipped that all the buffalo were killed by the hand of man. Either there weren't as many buffalo as is claimed or a disease decimated the herds to the point that what commercial and vandalistic (I won't call it sport hunting) hunting did go on only served to take the remaining herds down to a level that they could not support themselves biologically much less support a traditional plains indian culutre. Now I don't have the articles and the numbers at hand but it was compelling and worth giving the whole business a second look. Kinda like claiming the Indians where Environmetalists and modern man is a spoiler of nature. Neither premise is completely true. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Breeders claim lineage going back 1000 years for the Icelandic, 13-14 hands tall but weighing 800 pounds and carrying a 300 pound 6 foot Icelander with no problem. Now THAT'S a horse! http://www.icefarm.com/news.htm http://www.ice-horse.com/west.html --- Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> wrote: > "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > > > Walt, > > Yes they used the Shetland, but there was another > small horse they used as > > well. > > Hallo the Camp...... > > There is a small horse called (if my memory serves), > the Icelandic horse. > Smallish, hairy, and sturdy. Of Nordic origions I > believe. I did not know the > seafarers of the north took their horses with them. > Had to have been hard on > them in those boats. > > The shetland pony I believe is of Britanic origions > and was used as a tiny draft > horse in the mines. > > As I am work, I do not have my books handy to verify > this all this. > > Regards > > Lee of North Idaho ===== defstones I'm living so far beyond my income that we may almost be said to be living apart. e e cummings ) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Laguna Mountain Rendezvous Date: 10 Oct 2000 22:42:33 EDT Hello the camp... A grand event coming up 10/18 through 10/22, in the northern San Diego county area of Southern California, near Julian. It's primitive, but not a 'juried' event; we run this one to help 'greenies' get started. Anybody from either list that's going to be attending? Have an interest in having a list members get-together? Let me know, here or offline, and we can post a meetin' notice on the bulletin board at the entrance to camp... Ralph (Barney Fife aka Shoots Himself aka Hole-In-Arm) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:49:15 -0700 Hallo Scott scott mcmahon wrote: > I'm not familiar with the Metis, being from the southern end of the plains > but we had Comancheros & Ciboleros here and I was under the impression they > were basically the same profession, just different ethnic groups...is this > true? I don't recollect anyone answering your question, so I'll toss my hat into the ring for a moment in time... From my readings, Metis (mixed-bloods) is a term mostly connected with the Canadian/French/British fur trade of the north. A lot of them were employed by the fur companies up this a way. No real bad rep as a whole that I'm aware of like the Comancheros had. > Not that > it's really that important to me but where is the documentation for the > Metis fort builders that has been dodged so fervently of late? Of the Nor'Westers, a Metis by the name of Jaco Finlay (Jacques Finlay) was an important figure in the construction of several posts, including Spokane House (1811). He accompanied and worked with David Thompson while he was in the Pacific Northwest. And the horse stuff..... lemme see, I'm too poor to even contemplate a new saddle... so cain't help you there, the mare is lame 'cause she tried to kick the snot outa the gelding through the fence after he bit her in the arse, and while the hat don't come off at a gallop, the brim has a tendacy to flip down over the eyes... but that's Ok, who the heck wants to see where a hell bent for leather, greenbroke mare that is terrified of mud puddles is going anyways..... Regards from cold and wet Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo Extinction Date: 10 Oct 2000 20:12:40 -0700 I too agree we covered this a year ago. I won't argue with the theory that disease finished off the remnants of the buffalo herd rather suddenly. HOWEVER, the proposition that the required ammunition "couldn't have been carried west" doesn't hold up. Suppose we allow for 5,000,000 rounds a year, over a 20 year period, resulting in 100 million rounds, allowing for some natural increase and misses while killing 50 million-plus buffalo. Assume 20 balls per pound. This requires 250,000 lbs of lead per year. Seems like a lot? BUT - if we assume that 250 trains per year travelled to suitable regions of the west with shipments of ammunition, it's only 1000 lbs of lead per train (plus the matching powder) -- a modest corner of the baggage car. If early boxcars carried 10 tons each, the entire shipment would occupy 15-20 cars. It COULDA happened, even if these numbers are pretty far off. Trains carry a lot of weight. The powder and ball would only be a tiny fraction of the shipping weight to return hides, tongues, etc. I, too, would like to see those tallies -- but one has to allow for an unknown amount of wastage if the reports of wanton killing are to be believed. To kill 5,000,000 buffalo per year might require 1000 hunters at 5000 buffalo each, assuming the hunter killed 100 per day for 50 days a year. From what I gather, you could shoot this many in a single "stand", limited more by reloading rate I suppose. You'd have to skin them pretty fast to bring back 100 hides per hunter -- anybody have stats on the composition of such crews? At 20 lbs per hide, we would gather a ton of hides a day per hunter, loading up a wagon train within a few days. The expedition would return to the railroad to ship and resupply every week or so, probably bringing enough hides to fill a boxcar or two. Each hunter would require 400-500 pounds of ammo per year, and return 100,000 lbs of robes (25 10-ton boxcars), assuming no wastage. There would be 4 such persons travelling on each of my 250 trains -- it's a lot of activity but spread out across the west, it's not absurd on the face of it. Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: metis Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:22:32 MDT now were to start,i will keep it short as i can if you want to know more please email. to start you reading off or proof of metis here is a start i have more if you run short on belief, in cluding my news letter on metis. THE NEW PEOPLESbeing and becoming metis in north america by jacqueline peterson and jennifer s. h. brown./strange empireby joseph kinsey howard/the red river trails oxcart routes between st paul and the selkirk settlements 1820/1870. now for some reserce info out of our room on the fur trade and metis. if do not belief my infor i can sure coff it up or puke it all over you.there is NO and i mean NO CONNECTION between metis and comencaro of the south. the cajun yes NOT THE COMENCARO. the furturest south that i can proof to now is utah per mr. hanson,s books.sent by the hudson bay com. to check fur trade market. the turm french canadan was usuly nice way of saying breed at that time.so if you read that term at that era good chance that person was a metis.to be reconized as a nation people recognized by heir food,clothing,flag,history and politcal movement. i can cover all this just ask and you shall recieve.(by records-usa-canada) as far as being in on alot of fort building. ft union has their own flyer put out to people that explains metis names at fort union building and working in after,allso covers ft walla fur fort.(my boy was on one of walla digs of to day).the metis was employed in the fur trade before there was a fur trade in the west.were sent out west by the big fur companys to build. at that stage of the fur trade if the name sounded french good chance,metis. so if at the NORTHERN FORTS there was a french name on the roster good change we were there.in fact beiing compared to a southern comencaro really gets digging hiverant file,s. if you want books to read iam finding more and more, hope you have alot of time.we were indian traders also traded in villages of that history era. for instenc 1820,s the metis cart brigades were the most powerful force on the northern plains.Fact put into most history books. sence the metis were children from the furmen and indian women they were first imployed into the fur trade, covering all asspects of the industry . sorry if we were the first and still in the fur trade (north canada). the whole socity of metis came from the northern fur indusry with indian and euro mix to form the new nation. come to think of it there has even been shows made covering this same thing. this is about has bad as the person say he didn,t think a cart was used in the north part of fur trade( ha have got proof on that one) please leave the metis out of the south west.please read history of the north first. we had a differant fur trade and the last. when you come to the north country remimber we were different world with different history . in the fur trade the new comer to the north died if he could not change . i sorry iam calmer now. if you need records or proof of metis in the fur trade please get a hold of me. of cart patterns, or bead patterns of metis please see me.michif language,metis recipes any thing! if i don,t know i can find someone that does. angela hope your files are better shape then mine i just torn the h--- out of the hiverant metis files. how are you as a back up in pissinmatch? Walt you r going to have to hobble me i snorting and blowing. metis are a big part of fur trade why havent they read this its in black and white all over. hiverants metis preserve and research of metis history bring metis and friends of metis into traditions of the hiverant metis _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" <hunter1828@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Destruction of the Bison Date: 11 Oct 2000 03:26:21 GMT Ho the list, An excellent new book on this topic is titled The Destruction of the Bison by Andrew C. Isenberg. I have read the book and my review of it will be in the next Confluence News (in November, I think). Isenberg offers much good information and he concludes that the buffalo almost went extinct because of a combination of human (not just white) hunting, disease, climate changes, and over-competition for grazing from horses and cattle. If you can find it, get it and read it. One of his main points is that the buffalo was on the decline anyway when white hunters entered the picture, thus all they did was simply quicken something that would have happened anyway in a couple more decades. He also offers an interesting look at how sportsmen helped save the buffalo. Just by two cents worth, Robert "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" <hunter1828@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 03:31:12 GMT All three are excellent books. We sell the first two at Fort Union. Another good one is Children of the Fur Trade: The Forgotten Metis of the Pacific Northwest. Robert "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com THE NEW PEOPLESbeing and becoming metis in north america by jacqueline peterson and jennifer s. h. brown./strange empireby joseph kinsey howard/the red river trails oxcart routes between st paul and the selkirk settlements 1820/1870 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT............NRA..........tonight on ABC Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:45:46 EDT How did the NRA do hope it did not make us look like gun nuts like tv always makes us out to be.did we hold ground? traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Metis and Comanceros/Ciboleros Date: 11 Oct 2000 03:50:38 GMT Well I guess I riled up the old Metis Luff! I apologize for any inference that the Metis were connected to the southwest...what I was getting at was that(from my limited knowledge) the Metis were into trading and buffalo hunting which is what the Comanchero and Cibolero did. And to the remark made in respects to the reputation of the Comanchero...this came along after the furtrade era, during our times they were simply traders from Mexican villages who traded blankets and foodstuffs for robes and livestock. I know there is alot of difference in the Northern and Southern plains BUT I don't think one was tougher than the other... you still had dangerous tribes to deal with as well as severe weather and alot of wild animals that were as dangerous as the weather and Indians! I think the letters from Man Made Mobile as well as the fact that there are few surviving samples sways me away from the Hybrid... Cliff you were right, the term Spanish does not refer to place of origin but the style of tree ie. rawhided wood which was alot stronger/different than the English and European styles of construction. The US Dragoons gave a poor report on the Grimsley hybrid produced for their use sayiing that the under panels came un-stuffed and wore sores on the horses backs(leading me to believe they didn't use blankets?). I'm interested in hearing what the other horsemen are using out there...anyone have anything to share on this? One last note... I found that caps, while not illustrated in Miller's works are very servicable for the horseman and are a period alternative to the felt hat. Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: metis lang-michif Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:58:47 MDT a composite of indian tongue, usually cree and chippewa, and french english and gaelic. the french used was old french an is obsolete. the metis usuly can not make out ne french but can understand some. the same with the cree and chippewa language. the word metis means mix is most language form. the metis started usuing the word when alot of the familys were marrying into indian and white familys. so some of the people were a mix instead of a half breed. i meet all kinds of metis some indian looking alot white looking. i am a scot indian metis one of the old names they would call a scot mix was a black scot. the name for metis by the northern plains people were flower bead people. the hand sign for metis was two cicle,s by fingers the draw a line down center. stand for two worlds or men with wagons. some time michif is used by the turtle mt. chippewa to id them selfs as turtle mt. metis. i sill tearing files up on ft. hall give me a few days and i will tell you. remiber also alot of metis would not tell people of their indian or metis back ground angle do you have any thing on ft hall? preserve and reseach metis history bring metis and friends into traditions of the hiverant metis ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 01:19:03 EDT OK, so what makes a person a metis? If a St. Louis Frenchman married a Southern Cheyenne woman, were their kids metis? (Such as William Guerrier did, resulting in Ed Guerrier-- a "half-breed Cheyenne" in the parlance of the 19th Century southern plains) Or is there something about the proximity to Canada that makes a mixed French/Indian person a metis? (So if Guerrier had married a Northern Cheyenne and spent all of his time north of the S. Platte, THEN his kids would have been metis.) What do we say that metis means (because I've never heard of the Guerriers described as Metis)? john r sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Journals and Metis Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:25:02 -0600 Gentlemen, Going through several journals from the period I find by going through the indexes: Journal of a Mountain Man by James Clyman: No mention of Metis 40 Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri. Charles Larpenteur: No mention of Metis Adventures of a Mountain Man by Zenas Leonard: No mention of Metis Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell: No mention of Metis Life in the Rocky Mountains by Warren Angus Ferris: No mention of Metis Edward Warren by William Drummond Stewart: No mention of Metis Broken Hand by Leroy Hafen: No mention of Metis Jim Bridger by J. Cecil Alter: No mention of Metis Jedediah Smith, by Dale Morgan: No mention of Metis I really like history, and I like facts about history even better. This is from the guys that were there. I'm sure that everyone knows that Osborne Russell in fact, WAS there at the building of Fort Hall. Osborne didn't mention Metis. Well, this has been fun, and made me did into the documentation again. Allen in Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:25:01 -0600 Mr. Luff, Just to clarify, are you saying that Metis are half breeds/mixed breeds? And are you including all mixed/half breeds as Metis? Just trying to understand what we're defining here. Thanks, Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Allen in Ft. Hall Country. Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:37:57 -0600 Walt, Aux Aliments de Pays is French. Not Metis. If some of the Metis used French, that doesn't mean they invented it. Or built Fort Hall, or were the pivitol force in the fur trade era. This is absolutely no slam on the Metis people. But you are claiming, so far with no documentation, far more than they did. >It pays to know your roots in this sport. > It sure does......Allen Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country Alright Allen, I will start in one step at a time. First of all the French fur trade connection was broken for all time in 1763. It took until 1770 to jump start it. Several Metis were with Lewis and Clark 1804, 1805 and 1806. While camped out for the winter in North Dakota. Lewis and Clark could have spent the winter in a large well supplied Metis town a mere 160 miles to the north, Pebina...opps my spelling. In 1805, La Roche: A Metis was here on the upper Yellowstone before Captain Clark arrived in July 1806. One source of documentation is THE AMERICAN WEST. THE MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY. Published by the Buffalo Bill Historical Center, Cody, Wyoming. Sponsored by the Western History Association. July/August 1978 Volume XV, Number 4. Page 4. The Mountain Men by William H Goetzmann. The Brief and Glorious Era of the Frontier Trapper. His credit line reads: William H. Goetzmann is director of the American Studies Program at the University of Texas in Austin. He was awarded the 1967 Pulitzer Prize in history for Exploration and Empire: The Explorer and the Scientist in the Winning of the American West. On page 14 he writes about "Wyeth , angry and disappointed, moved west, constructed Fort Hall on the Salmon Fork of the Columbia," He goes on to say "by 1834, however, the Rocky Mountain Fur Company was dead, its partnership dissolved, never to be revived again." And in between stated "....Fort Hall became an important outfitting post on the trail to Oregon." On page 15 is an illustration by Alfred Miller titled Rocky Mountain Trapper. Pictured is a Metis. I have noticed when you get real serious you flash your 1729. Think about it. Pretend you are a student instead of a professor perhaps that will permit you to see the vast, deep and wide influence of the Metis. They were there and they are still here. Ponyrider, have you burned up your saddle blankets yet? VBG. As you can read Fort Hall was not a significant part of the fur trade. It did not appear until the very end. Employers did not do the work. The Metis did. And the Metis built Fort McKenzie as well. I think if you will conduct a little reference work yourself you will see what mean. Walt out of his badgerhole Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Extinction Date: 11 Oct 2000 01:48:17 EDT About the disappearance of the buffalo. I have read some primary sources from plainsmen and buffalo hunters and traders (both white and otherwise) but I don't recall any mention of huge die-offs. Without exception they stated that overhunting was the reason for the disappearance of the buff. Surely a great buffalo epidemic during the 1860s-80s wouldn't have escaped mention in the primary documents. Is there any mention of it in any sources you all have seen? Is there conclusive archaeological evidence? If not, then I'll write it off (for now) as the theory of one more academic trying to make a mark. jrs ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:49:49 -0600 OK, so what makes a person a metis? If a St. Louis Frenchman married a Southern Cheyenne woman, were their kids metis? (Such as William Guerrier did, resulting in Ed Guerrier-- a "half-breed Cheyenne" in the parlance of the 19th Century southern plains) Or is there something about the proximity to Canada that makes a mixed French/Indian person a metis? (So if Guerrier had married a Northern Cheyenne and spent all of his time north of the S. Platte, THEN his kids would have been metis.) What do we say that metis means (because I've never heard of the Guerriers described as Metis)? john r sweet Hi John, by 1804 the population of St. Louis was 5,000. Half American and half French. If William was in the fur trade. A descendent of the pre 1763 St. Louis fur trade then the off spring of one of those would seem to be the mixed blood of Metis. The second example more so because the Metis appears to be a cultural thing that spread growing from the beginning of the fur trade as it spread west growing into the core left. They may be Metis and not know it. Cheers, Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Journals and Metis Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:57:51 -0600 Gentlemen, Going through several journals from the period I find by going through the indexes: I really like history, and I like facts about history even better. This is from the guys that were there. I'm sure that everyone knows that Osborne Russell in fact, WAS there at the building of Fort Hall. Osborne didn't mention Metis. Well, this has been fun, and made me did into the documentation again. Allen in Fort Hall country Allen, Same old books. Same index referencing. That is pretty lazy history. Using the same documentation as posted. On page 14 "In August of 1830, Smith, Jackson and Sublette sold out to five friends. Tom Fitzpatrick, Milton Sublette, Henry Fraeb, Jean Baptiste Gervais, and Jim Bridger." Here 2 Metis reached ownership, Allen. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Allen Hall Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:25 PM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Journals and Metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 00:20:28 -0600 At 11:57 PM 10/10/2000 -0600, you wrote: > >Same old books. Same index referencing. That is pretty lazy history. > Heck Walt, there haven't been any new books put out by primary sources for awhile.... > >Using the same documentation as posted. On page 14 "In August of 1830, >Smith, Jackson and Sublette sold out to five friends. Tom Fitzpatrick, >Milton Sublette, Henry Fraeb, Jean Baptiste Gervais, and Jim Bridger." Here >2 Metis reached ownership, Allen. Which book was that in? And which are the Metis of the five? Come on now, no lazy history. LOL Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Allen in Ft. Hall Country. Date: 11 Oct 2000 00:20:27 -0600 At 11:37 PM 10/10/2000 -0600, you wrote: Walt, >He was awarded the 1967 Pulitzer Prize in history for >Exploration and Empire: The Explorer and the Scientist in the Winning of >the American West. On page 14 he writes about "Wyeth , angry and >disappointed, moved west, constructed Fort Hall on the Salmon Fork of the >Columbia," How interesting. When did Fort Hall move to the mouth of the Portneuf and the Snake River? You and your expert should look at a map every now and then. Good try, got anything else? >Think about it. Pretend you are a >student instead of a professor perhaps that will permit you to see the vast, >deep and wide influence of the Metis. I'm very much a stutend, and try to be serious. I read journals and lots of stuff. I'm trying real hard to see it Walt, but so far it's pretty hard to see. Russell, Larpenteur, Leonard, Stewart, and Ferris apparently didn't see it either. Help us out here. >I think if you will conduct a >little reference work yourself you will see what mean. I'll keep on digging. Why don't you do the same. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 05 Jan 2000 21:17:40 -0700 You have to remember the high numbers of buffalo that were killed in fires, drownings and blizzards. drowning each year account for amazingly high numbers joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 11 Oct 2000 08:39:41 -0600 Lee, The Vikings had other boats besides the long boat, I have also heard that they have just discovered a 175'0" Long boat in Iceland. This would make it possible to haul all sorts of goods. There have also been digs in eastern Canada where they have found Viking artifacts, the speculation was that the seatelment was abandoned due too warfare, if they had taken horses they would have probably abandoned them. I don't know but it is possible. YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 8:03 PM > >"Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > >> Walt, >> Yes they used the Shetland, but there was another small horse they used as >> well. > >Hallo the Camp...... > >There is a small horse called (if my memory serves), the Icelandic horse. >Smallish, hairy, and sturdy. Of Nordic origions I believe. I did not know the >seafarers of the north took their horses with them. Had to have been hard on >them in those boats. > >The shetland pony I believe is of Britanic origions and was used as a tiny draft >horse in the mines. > >As I am work, I do not have my books handy to verify this all this. > >Regards > >Lee of North Idaho > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 11 Oct 2000 08:58:11 -0600 Cliff, The first letter is Dated April 24, 1833, he states"No difference is percivable to those who are not practical mechanics of the saddling buisiness between the shape of the saddle above mentioned and the real spannish saddle" He then goes on to state that the saddle he make's is longer and wider to accomodate the larger American horses and that he has added a pad on the seat for the riders comfort which is covered by the "Mochila" The second letter is dated June 27, 1833 this saddle is the Hybrid it has a rawhide tree but looks a lot like an english military saddle on steroids, you have to read these two letters together to desern the diference. Cliff, They were both Hybrids, as I am writing a paper on this subject I have probably said too much. YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 7:19 PM > > > >Mr. Jensen, >I do not have a copy of "Man Made Mobile." I have read it a couple of times >though. Does the letter written to the war dept. describe the spanish saddle >as having pads or skirts, also what is the dates of the correspondence?? >Records show the sell of "spanish" saddles, bare or "complete," interpreted >to mean padded, and rigged with skirts. If that is the case then those were >hybrid saddles. I had the pleasure of hearing Clay Landry speak on AFC >records at the Fur Trade Symposium last month, and one item he addressed was >saddles. His research has shown that the term "spanish," had nothing to do >with the origin of the saddle, but described the type of tree. If that is >the case then couldn't it be possible, that some of Grimsley's "spanish" >saddles were hybrids?? > >Cliff Tiffie >PO Box 5089 >Durant, OK >74702 >580-924-4187 >--------------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Allen in Ft. Hall Country. Date: 11 Oct 2000 09:14:49 -0600 How interesting. When did Fort Hall move to the mouth of the Portneuf and the Snake River? Allen About the same time Charlie Russell was run out of Idaho, as you said. You shouldn't ought to done it VBG The Alfred Jacob Miller A ROCKY MOUNTAIN TRAPPER. Pictures a Metis. If you can read a trail. You can read a picture. Them is Metis mocs I see. A hat that will stay on the head. And the Metis style of coat. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: karl@intercompco.com Subject: MtMan-List: FindArticles - The Ecological Indian: Myth and History.(Review) Date: 11 Oct 2000 09:34:36 -0700 (PDT) abe [karl@intercompco.com] thought you'd find this article useful. The Ecological Indian: Myth and History.(Review) http://www.findarticles.com/m1511/9_20/55553393/p1/article.jhtml Interesting book on Indians and animal populations. _________________________________________________________________________ FindArticles - "The Web's First Articles Archive" http://www.findarticles.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: buckskinning sub society Date: 11 Oct 2000 12:05:06 -0600 walt , concho and camp. i was at a rondie and ran into a couple greeners. they were a goup of profs from some collage( leaving out names for a reason) studing as many mt man type fuctions they xcound. said there were different unv. woundering if buckskinner cound be sub society. also the fact that with a armed camped there seemed to be no confrountation serious jury type. just woundering if ether of you ran into that. damit walt old my ass , you and i will still be shanking our spirs in the ears of broncs and shooting our 1803 ,s yelling get out of my way, here i come. when the time comes. look in the shadow,s behind you i,m there ponyrider Ponyrider, Steve Bearhand called me this morning. Gave me a report on the doings at Fort Union. Steve told me that he could have received college credit for the courses given there. Only one non professor was represented. A woman who gave a class on herbs. The talk I was interested in was about the Assiniboines relationship with Fort Union. The talk was by a college professor he thought. And he did not see Carl Four Stars or Mason Runs Through at the event. I hoped they could be there. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: FindArticles - The Ecological Indian: Myth and History.(Review) Date: 11 Oct 2000 12:10:02 -0600 Interesting book on Indians and animal populations. Hi Karl, I don't think the buffalo jump numbers were around 200. Very large numbers most likely could not be factored in here in Montana. One of the best jump sites is the Ulm Pishkin. Most just sites were not used after the time of the horse. Something further to consider. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 11 Oct 2000 12:58:42 -0700 Yo Joe Check the date on your computer.... it's coming up with dates from 1904.... which puts your messages up at the top of most folks mail browsers... where they won't get read. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Of Boats & Horses & Norsemen Date: 11 Oct 2000 13:21:39 -0700 Ole While researching the history of the Bateau, I did some fair amount of reading on the Viking longships. I know they had different sizes of boats, but I never saw any of their boats I'd opt to cross the Atlantic in. Tough bunch of boys. On the Viking settlements, I think most historians have accepted they were here and there on the northeast coast long before Mr. C. Columbus sweet talked the Spanish Queen into a couple of boats. The dominant theory that I get from readings is that the Norsemen's superstitious nature, combined with their bad temper and their penchant for attempting to kill any stranger they ran across, earned them the enmity of the locals, which in turn got them ousted/punctured/Vahalla bound. I would imagine that any horses they brought over were eventually served up for dinner. Regards from Idaho... where it is now HUNTING SEASON! See y'all in the woods. Gotta run Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:07:44 -0500 > Can not comment much on the Uberti vs the LPR, I do know that the old timers > that I asked when I was getting started told me that out of all the > production guns I could buy, the Lyman Plains Rifle was the closest when it > came to looks and the weight. I can tell you that the LPR is a very heavy > rifle weighing in at 9lbs. I was also told that I could show up to > Friendship with this rifle and shoot it without any problems. Unfortunately, this is all true. Only because these isn't anything remotly resembling an authentic Hawken rifle on the market. I have one of those old Uberi's, and I once owned a GPR. Not even close. The old Uberti Santa Fe Hawken was about 90% authentic, the GPR ain't even close, but is is a good rifle, and it is close enough to qualify for competition in what might pass for "juried" rendezvous. If you think the GPR is heavy, try a good, authentic, cutom made Hawken replica. Heh, heh, heh, that GPR is noticably lighter. > > Now on the Longhunter era. I believe the beginning of the "boschloper" / > "coureur de bois" was sometime in the late 1700's. I also believe that the > Longhunter era ranged into the early 1800's. Now I guess it depends on what > years you consider early. The time frame for the boschloper began in the 1600's when the Dutch, in what is now New York State, began to trade with the Indians. The word boschloper is, if I remember correctly, Dutch. The French coureur de bois also began to trade and live with the Northern Tribes in the early 1600's. The Christianized Huron Nation was nearly wiped out by the Abenaki in 1685, I believe. The French missionaries had been active among the Tribes long before that, and the coureur de bois guided the missionaries to their destinations. Check out the movie "Black Robe" for a little background on this period. Now don't get me wrong, the movie will give you a little background, but it ain't history. Just good Hollywood, for once. The period of the long hunter spanned the period from the mid 1760's to the Rev War. A real short time frame. The Contractors just couldn't generate much interest in organizing any long hunts after the Rev. War. Allot of the game had already been killed in Kentucky and Tennesee, so the hunters would have to work extra hard just to find marketable hides. > > I do not plan on changing my persona as my half Indian half White man dress > suits me fine. At the rendezvous I attend, I seem to fit in with the > mountain men and the Indians just fine. Since I am down here in Georgia in > the South, I may fit more into the persona of the Canebrake. These were > whitemen who took Indian wives and lived like the Indians. Yeh, that's me > but since I am not a true Southerner, I will stay with the Longhunter. > Well, that's OK with me. Just a thought though, few rendezvous have very much to do with honest portrayals of history. Please do some research, look at the ALRA boys, some of the AMM, and the members of a few other groups who DO actually research the late colonial period. And when someone tells you something is wrong, or right, ask for their documentation. There are allot of "period legends" floating around as fact. Nothing but pure imagination that somehow gets told as fact. Believe nothing that anyone tells you without documentation to back up those claims. > JD, thanks for the input. I see that I will half to do more research. Always willing to lend a helping hand. That's what this list is all about. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Metis and Allen in Ft. Hall Country. Date: 11 Oct 2000 17:47:45 -0700 Hi walt, what do you mean when you say metis. are you refering to any person of french and indian ansestry? or are you refering to a person of the group known as the metis, of red river area? as I understand it, Metis/Metizo is the french word meaning, mixed blood. or in other words are you considering every french canadian with an indian mother and europian father, as metis. sincerely; Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 8:14 AM > How interesting. When did Fort Hall move to the mouth of the Portneuf and > the Snake River? > Allen > > About the same time Charlie Russell was run out of Idaho, as you said. You > shouldn't ought to done it VBG > > The Alfred Jacob Miller A ROCKY MOUNTAIN TRAPPER. Pictures a Metis. If you > can read a trail. You can read a picture. Them is Metis mocs I see. A hat > that will stay on the head. And the Metis style of coat. > > Walt > Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 > Clark Bottom Rendezvous > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <conner1@uswest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Trade Rifle ? Date: 11 Oct 2000 18:28:59 -0600 jdearing wrote: > Unfortunately, this is all true. Only because these isn't anything remotly > resembling an authentic Hawken rifle on the market. I have one of those old > Uberi's, and I once owned a GPR. Not even close. The old Uberti Santa Fe > Hawken was about 90% authentic, the GPR ain't even close, but is is a good > rifle, and it is close enough to qualify for competition in what might pass > for "juried" rendezvous. > > If you think the GPR is heavy, try a good, authentic, cutom made Hawken > replica. Heh, heh, heh, that GPR is noticably lighter.................... > Always willing to lend a helping hand. That's what this list is all about. > J.D. > > ---------------------- J.D., If you watch the classified ads in Muzzleloader, Muzzle Blasts and a few others you can once in a while find an old Uberti Santa Fe Hawken and I have picked up several Green River Rifleworks - 1/2 and full stock Hawken rifles, even a GRR Leman at fair prices. Saw a full stock GRR flinter Hawken in good condition at the last gun show in Denver for $900, got him down to $825 which is about average here. So if you guys keep your eyes open, there's still some of the good copies floating around. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 11 Oct 2000 21:03:19 -0400 JD, Seems that you know your stuff. > The period of the long hunter spanned the period from the mid 1760's to > the Rev War. A real short time frame. The Contractors just couldn't generate > much interest in organizing any long hunts after the Rev. War. Allot of the > game > had already been killed in Kentucky and Tennesee, so the hunters would have > to work extra hard just to find marketable hides. Do you have any books that you would recommend? My information that I have gotten off the net leads me to believe that the Longhunter period started in the late 1790 after the indian wars and continued into the early 1800's. It seemed to be a very short period. > > I do not plan on changing my persona as my half Indian half White man > dress > > suits me fine. At the rendezvous I attend, I seem to fit in with the > > mountain men and the Indians just fine. Since I am down here in Georgia > in > > the South, I may fit more into the persona of the Canebrake. These were > > whitemen who took Indian wives and lived like the Indians. Yeh, that's me > > but since I am not a true Southerner, I will stay with the Longhunter. > > > Well, that's OK with me. Just a thought though, few rendezvous have very > much > to do with honest portrayals of history. Please do some research, look at > the ALRA > boys, some of the AMM, and the members of a few other groups who DO > actually research the late colonial period. > > And when someone tells you something is wrong, or right, ask for their > documentation. There are allot of "period legends" floating around as fact. > Nothing but pure imagination that somehow gets told as fact. Believe nothing > that anyone tells you without documentation to back up those claims. When I attend the rendezvous I am usually wearing my deerskin leggins, breach cloth, mocs along with a home made muslin shirt. My outer coat is made of duck and it follows the traditional look, very plain. I try to be as authentic as possible and have had many positive comments from both the old indians and ol timers on the articles and garments that I have made.. This does make me feel good but there is always room for inprovement. I believe that my gear to be affective for me has to have medicine. By this I mean that it must mean something to me. You will not see me carry any manuf. equipment, excluding the gun and that will change one day. The hawk I carry was made by a Cherokee friend, the bowie by an old buckskinner, the leggins leather I got out of a trade for a badgerskin possibles bag that I made, I later made the leggins. I take it more seriously than most but not as serious as some. My biggest problem now is making a pack that will fit my needs, which are not much. I have scraped the lean to for a 7x7 foot duck tarp that will be an everything shelter. Compact, light and very versatile. I do want for another rifle, it is the Tenn. style poor boy. Plain and simple no fancy stuff, 45 cal. flint but the LPR will have to do as I want to make the poor boy myself. Alot of the sites I visit on the web seem to cater to the mountain man fur trade and his needs. If you have a site/s that may cater to the southern gent who ventured up and down the east coast and sometimes ventured out west to the mountains. I would be interested. Thanks, Frank V. Rago > > > JD, thanks for the input. I see that I will half to do more research. > > Always willing to lend a helping hand. That's what this list is all about. > J.D. > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis in Ft. Hall Country. Date: 11 Oct 2000 20:51:24 -0600 Hi walt, what do you mean when you say metis. are you refering to any person of french and indian ansestry? or are you refering to a person of the group known as the metis, of red river area? as I understand it, Metis/Metizo is the french word meaning, mixed blood. or in other words are you considering every french canadian with an indian mother and europian father, as metis. sincerely; Tom Hi Tom, I think it goes beyond that to include other nationalities in the Rocky Mountain fur trade. The Scots and others in management positions also left their offspring. I am not forgetting the daughters of the fur trade either. I think the Red Cart Metis are one of the highly recognizable attributes of this culture. But this Metis culture had a long time to build it's unique position in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade and for the most part are unrecognized as being a strong part the work force in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho as well. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: metis,mixbld,ft hall Date: 11 Oct 2000 21:10:16 MDT gents. poeple that were there, the men you named and my names might not be same. but let me try the red river metis ,carts brgads, keeped a low profile in white companys.done a great trade bus and indian furs. a few men of carts done contact at fort union and other trading centers not the whole cart camp. but you what ref. differant (pages) used by strange empire. Blackfeet and buffalo james w. schulz pages 41,43 44,50,60 trip through paradise chapter on breeds and crees in red river carts,plenty coups(crow indian chief) red river metis ,cart, hidden in cotton woods ect about three page on this. the red river settlement its rise, progress and present state, the book hold some hudson and norwest statments made to metis and a number of priest names that traveled with the metis,not that they liked it. the time of the buffalo another book of statments of metis hunters and money. in the field of the fur trade were the artisPeter rindisbacher made several pictures of metis,frank mayer his drawing of red river metis,paul kane portai cree hafbreed in metis dress. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: metis,mixbld,ft hall Date: 11 Oct 2000 21:10:15 MDT gents. poeple that were there, the men you named and my names might not be same. but let me try the red river metis ,carts brgads, keeped a low profile in white companys.done a great trade bus and indian furs. a few men of carts done contact at fort union and other trading centers not the whole cart camp. but you what ref. differant (pages) used by strange empire. Blackfeet and buffalo james w. schulz pages 41,43 44,50,60 trip through paradise chapter on breeds and crees in red river carts,plenty coups(crow indian chief) red river metis ,cart, hidden in cotton woods ect about three page on this. the red river settlement its rise, progress and present state, the book hold some hudson and norwest statments made to metis and a number of priest names that traveled with the metis,not that they liked it. the time of the buffalo another book of statments of metis hunters and money. in the field of the fur trade were the artisPeter rindisbacher made several pictures of metis,frank mayer his drawing of red river metis,paul kane portai cree hafbreed in metis dress. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: halfbreed vis metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 21:46:19 MDT this is a sticky one, i have to make sure i don,t step on the millions of metis of canada and montana,n.d. threw the juronals of the big companys, they say i sent some metis and other mix bloods down to ect----. the metis is and was the new nation and not all mix bloods of the country new of the metis nat. i have covered, alittle on the mix of indian tribes and and white nations that mixed at first. from the . not all half bloods id with may tee but can be. metis means mix so really ---- but metis is nation of mix bloods and at that time a hlf blood was discrimined by white and red a fell in with their own.the metis history is from the shadows were they wanted to be, to enter into to the history of the metis roots and fur connection, mean you will be buying different books from the norm fur history. i can only help show you the way cannot make you drink the water. Ft HALL will at this time i can not find any firm info on metis and ft. hall , don,t forget indivual doing his own thing. i have to add a little jab here. i have been to fort hall and fort union. i don t know if ft hall people rebuilt by old times. buuut i much rether say the metis built ft union than ft hall. ft union is truely a pearl on the high plans. to day fort hall kind of drab place. isn,t fr union records of that time period of fur trade. i think they were there to. i not sure about that, but i think so.""" i ref. the book THE FUR TRADE IN NORTH DAKOTA edited by virginia l.heidenreich State historical Society of NORTH DAKOTA. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: halfbreed vis metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 22:08:39 -0600 i ref. the book THE FUR TRADE IN NORTH DAKOTA edited by virginia l.heidenreich State historical Society of NORTH DAKOTA. Hello Ponyrider, I think the names are a strong indicator of the individuals involved. Not only French names. Vern Carpenter is a descendent of the Metis. So is Gary Johnson. And they do not have French names. Also Laramie. That is located on the North Platte is named after a Frenchman, a Metis I believe. The AFC employed a lot of Metis. Not just at Fort Union. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Just thinking . . . most probably Off Topic Date: 12 Oct 2000 00:46:07 EDT Hallo the Camp. . . Well, I was thinking tonight. What else do you do in Washington when the sun doesn't shine and you can't see the moon? I was thinking of what I've learned since I began my exploration of the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade and the priceless knowledge I've found on this list. I was thinking of you renegades I've met along the way, and have come to depend upon. You know who you are and I thank you very much. I was thinking of the times I saw a post on this list and I thought, "Right On." OR "Are these folks mentally challenged?" I was thinking of the bantering back and forth and, of late, wondering . . . . is this really what Dean Rudy had in mind when he masterfully began these archives? I was thinking of the unexpected friendships I've found along the way and how much I appreciate the invaluable information the list has shared. How many times have I come to this rectangular campfire late at night and found your voices? Sometimes I wonder what planet you folks are from, spitting out words about dinosaurs, Metis, Dutch Ovens, saddles, Fort Hall . . . I'm sure I've forgotten a few topics . . but at least we share a passion. Regardless -- off topic, on topic, period correct, or hysterically incorrect . . . . I'm going to hit SEND now. Look out for squalls and I wish ----- Fair weather to you all, Wind1838@aol.com Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" <atthesea@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Just thinking . . . most probably Off Topic Date: 11 Oct 2000 22:13:23 -0700 Laura: Well spoken and a mirror of how I feel about this list. You are absolutely right...this list fills in lotsa late hours...this list and others similar to it. I have learned more about lotsa "stuff" that I hadn't even thought about before. Lots of good people and lots to learn. Regards from rainy and cool Coos Bay, Oregon. Ghostrider ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Metis---the final post Date: 12 Oct 2000 00:52:32 -0600 Hello the List Well, this thread on Metis has been interesting. Guess I've made all the points I can. And I bet everyone's tired of it, and have reached their own conclusion from the facts given. And like Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that". A fine exercise of our first amendment rights! America, what a country. Walt, May all your guns spark on the first attempt, Your traps be irresistable to beaver, And deer and elk take that last long broadside look at you. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <conner1@uswest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Metis---the final post Date: 12 Oct 2000 06:03:19 -0600 Allen Hall wrote: > Hello the List > > Well, this thread on Metis has been interesting. Guess I've made all the > points I can. And I bet everyone's tired of it, and have reached their own > conclusion from the facts given. > > And like Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that". > > Allen > > ---------------------- "Gump" was he a Metis ! ! ! ! Kind of acts like Mr. Miles at times. Buck ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Metis---the final post Date: 12 Oct 2000 09:27:21 -0400 Now ya went and hurt my feelings, Buck.... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 22:48:51 -0600 >Ponyrider <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> wrote: > > if at the NORTHERN FORTS there was a french >name on the roster good chance we were there. I would tend to agree, especially after about 1820. > angela hope your files are better shape then mine i just torn the h--- >out of the hiverant metis files. how are you as a back up in pissinmatch? I'll do my best! But my info mostly cuts off at 1821. I'm afraid that means I can't help with the Fort Hall question. >john r sweet (Hawkengun@aol.com) wrote: > >OK, so what makes a person a metis? Here are some quotes from the Canadian fur trade; anything in square brackets is supplied by me: "The numerous connections between the traders and the Indian women have given birth to a race called Metiss or Bois Brulee's by the [French-speaking] Canadians, and half bred by the Europeans [i.e. English, Scots]. The former are uneducated, volatile and vicious, like the Canadians; but the latter add the qualifications of an Indian hunter, to the sedateness and industry of the Europeans. They gladly learn to read and write, are proud of the advantages which they derive from their birth, and will not be persuaded to adopt the wandering and uncertain manner of life recommended to them by their Indian relations." Cumberland House, Winter 1819-1820 (Hood, 49) "they were half-breeds--or as the Canadians call them Metiss or Bois-brulees--they were tolerably decent in appearance and well clothed... These people are very numerous, and of the greatest utility to the trading merchants. They are silent, and apparently sulky crafty and extremely revengeful, seldom forgiving an injury--and never forgetting one, ready, by persuasion or gain to perpetrate any crime, however black." Robinson Lake, 1818? (Back, 18-19) "...half-breeds, a race who, keeping themselves distinct from both Indians and whites, form a tribe of themselves; and, although they have adopted some of the customs and manners of the French voyageurs, are much more attached to the wild and savage manners of the Redman." 1846 (Kane, 49) Today, historians and anthropologists use many different definitions of 'metis'; unfortunately, not everyone can agree on a single meaning. Here are some shades and nuances of 'metis', from off the top of my head: 'metis', 'mixed-blood': any one who has both Native and non-Native ancestors. 'Metis' (note the capital M!): Child or descendant of a North West Company employee and a Native woman. e.g. Charlotte Thompson (nee Small, daughter of NWC partner Patrick Small and a Cree woman) 'country-born', 'citizen of Hudson's Bay': Child or descendant of a Hudson's Bay Company employee, and a Native woman. e.g. Mary Norton, daughter of HBC governor Moses Norton and his Native wife. The reason some people feel it's important to make a distinction between metis, Metis, and country-born is because the NWC & HBC had a different language & 'corporate culture', and this was passed on to their children & descendants. Using this distinction in a modern context can be offensive. Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> noted that he found no mention of Metis in the indexes of numerous journals he consulted. Allen, I can't comment about what happened after 1820, but I know that in the Canadian fur trade journals of the 1774-1821 period, it can be devilishly hard to pin down who is and is not metis. The word metis was not much used in English; the term half-breed was used far more often, but often the only way to determine whether someone is, or is not, metis is by actually finding information about their parents. My impression is that if a metis was in disfavor, they were called 'a *$^&@ half-breed'; if they were a valued employee or trading partner, they were simply referred to by name. Using indexes as a vest-pocket reference has certain weaknesses. In some books (usually ones published before 1960), the indexes may only cross-reference the names of places and people. In books with more complete indexes, you still cannot count on the person doing the indexing to index what you're interested in. Some subjects are very slippery, and rarely show up in indexes, even when they're in the journals themselves. A prime example of this is 'women'; I've found a lot of women in fur trade journals, but only rarely have I found them in the index. Finding a subject heading in an index confirms there's a reference to it in the journal indexed; not finding it in the index, unfortunately, does not. Another couple of interesting sources for folks interested in Metis are Sylvia Van Kirk's book, _Many Tender Ties_, and Jennifer S.H. Brown's _Strangers in Blood_. The latter has just been re-issued in paperback, so it's cheaper & more readily available than before. (If folks need the full info to find these books, just ask.) _The New Peoples_, which was mentioned already, is also very good. I need to get around to reading Ponyrider's other two references. So many books, so little time... Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Buck Conner Date: 12 Oct 2000 10:53:59 -0600 Hi Buck, This is the time of year that Jim Bridger, Osborn Russell and a large party of mountain men went into camp at the mouth of the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone River in 1836. This camp was 5 months long. That maybe makes it the longest camp in old time mountain history. If you are passing through this way I would be glad to show you around. Based on your business interest I have seen on the screen. I could help you make some appropriate introductions. There are going to be way more tourists passing through here than there are of us.. Bring your bow. If you are interested give me a call at 406 633 2497. Sincerely, Walt Foster ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 10:52:01 -0600 In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the discussion on metis. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 10:01:24 -0700 Angela, I'm sure I speak for all in sending you our deepest condolences. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:52 AM > In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I > would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. > However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. > > My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. > As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any > errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, > but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying > the discussion on metis. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis---the final post Allen Hall Date: 12 Oct 2000 11:03:48 -0600 Thanks Allen, I still prefer my bow and would rather trap Pine Marten in the old days rather than beaver. You are a good sport. Try key boarding in Metis in your search engine. A study of the Metis Art is enlightening regarding clothing from 1825 to 1840. It is beautiful here this morning looking off towards the Beartooth Mountains where Osborn Russell and the others were trapping before returning here to spend the winter of 1836 - 1837. I have enjoyed most everyday on this historic ground gazing at the geography that gave rise to so much history between here and there. Sincerely, Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iambrainey@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: congress at work Date: 12 Oct 2000 13:34:01 EDT FYI Explorer William Clark Promoted -- Two Centuries Late Reuters WASHINGTON (Oct. 11) - Nearly 200 years after their great expedition of discovery of the American West, the House of Representatives voted to promote William Clark to captain, the rank held by his colleague, Meriwether Lewis. Despite promises made by President Thomas Jefferson that Clark would be commissioned as a captain, he remained a lieutenant, although considered co-commander of the expedition, for which he also kept a journal and made the maps. With the approaching bicentennial of the Lewis and Clark expedition, which began in May 1804, the bill's sponsor said it was time to follow through on the captaincy. ''Despite the clearly stated intentions (of) President Jefferson and Lewis, a number of actions denied Clark his rightful rank,'' said Rep. Doug Bereuter, a Nebraska Republican who is co-chairman of the House Lewis and Clark Bicentennial Congressional Caucus. ''Clark served his country admirably and emerged, along with Lewis, as a true American hero for all time,'' Bereuter pointed out Tuesday. After the epic expedition from St. Louis to the Pacific coast ended in 1806, Clark went on to be a brigadier general in the militia, superintendent of Indian affairs and governor of the Missouri Territory. He died in 1838 at the age of 68. The bill posthumously promotes Clark to the grade of captain in the Regular Army -- and specifies that ''no person is entitled to any bonus, gratuity, pay or allowance'' as a result. The Senate has to act on the measure and President Clinton has to sign it for the promotion to take effect. Reuters 11:51 10-11-00 Ben Rainey ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 10:58:16 -0700 Dear Angela, You have been a gentle and knowledgeable participant in this passion we all share. I have come to respect your wisdom and look forward to your notes. I am saddened by your loss. I pray that time will ease your current pain and strengthen your fondest memories. Peace, dear Lady. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:52 AM > In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I > would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. > However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. > > My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. > As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any > errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, > but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying > the discussion on metis. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 10:57:58 -0700 (PDT) I know too well what you went through and know what lies ahead. Tis a different world now without him already, isn't it? May God bless. --- Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> wrote: > In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such > a bald announcement; I > would just use stationery with a black border for my > correspondence. > However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail > programs. > > My father died last week, after a long and tenacious > struggle with cancer. > As a result, I must ask for your understanding & > patient indulgence for any > errors or omissions I might make in my postings. > Right now, I'm doing fine, > but that's subject to change without notice. In the > meantime, I'm enjoying > the discussion on metis. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== defstones When men are pure, laws are useless; when men are corrupt, laws are broken. Benjamin Disraeli (1804 - 1881) The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. Anatole France __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 11:01:30 -0700 Dear Angela Please permit me to add my condolences to what is sure to be an outpouring of support. May I say that your postings have always been among the very finest on this list and I have always read them with pleasure. Your recent posting on the Metis topic is a fine example -- some useful distinctions to guide the rest of us in sorting out the various claims and evidence. It's common knowledge (I trust) that the mixed blood French and Indian people, who developed a distinct culture called "metis", took an active part in the fur trade, especially the northerly regions, but your posting helped me understand more about their terms as well as supplying fascinating impressions from the commentators of their time. Such direct quotes are equally revealing of the author's mind-set as well as what they are reporting. May your voyage through the region of grief bring you safely to such acceptance as we can ever gain for the loss of loved ones. Your Obedient Servant Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:52 AM In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the discussion on metis. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 11:14:40 -0700 Angela, I don't usually read all the posts on this list, yours and a few others only. I send you my heartfelt condolences. Rick Baird ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 12 Oct 2000 03:34:51 -0600 Wow, thanks bill, don't know why it changed, bet it was them dern kids of mine joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 15:58:33 -0600 Angela, My depest sympathy on your loss. YMOS Ole#718 ---------- >From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) >Date: Thu, Oct 12, 2000, 10:52 AM > >In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I >would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. >However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. > >My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. >As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any >errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, >but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying >the discussion on metis. > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <conner1@uswest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 16:56:35 -0600 --------------D72E2E89AF9C18CB175328F2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angela Gottfred wrote: > In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I > would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. > However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. > > My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. > As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any > errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, > but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying > the discussion on metis. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Angela, The death of anyone is sad, the death of a family member is hardier yet, but those with health problems like your father's, it sometimes is a blessing for their pain to end. At this time that sounds hard, but he's in a better place - that we will all get to see one day. Remember your friends are here - and you have our deepest condolences, God bless those that have gone to the other side, their struggle is over. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------D72E2E89AF9C18CB175328F2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Angela Gottfred wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the discussion on metis. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a></blockquote> Angela, The death of anyone is sad, the death of a family member is hardier yet, but those with health problems like your father's, it sometimes is a blessing for their pain to end. At this time that sounds hard, but he's in a better place - that we will all get to see one day. Remember your friends are here - and you have our deepest condolences, God bless those that have gone to the other side, their struggle is over. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ </html> --------------D72E2E89AF9C18CB175328F2-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 16:14:15 -0700 > Angela, > The death of anyone is sad, the death of a family member is hardier > yet, but those with health problems like your father's, it sometimes is > a blessing for their pain to end. At this time that sounds hard, but he's > in a better place - that we will all get to see one day. > Remember your friends are here - and you have our deepest condolences, > God bless those that have gone to the other side, their struggle is over. > Later, > Barry "Buck" Conner Angela, Well said Buck, same goes from the folks here in Pennsylvania, our deepest condolences, God Bless. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dave tonneman <davetowz@excite.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: congress at work Date: 12 Oct 2000 16:29:12 -0700 (PDT) On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:34:01 EDT, hist_text@lists.xmission.com wrote: > FYI > Explorer William Clark Promoted -- Two Centuries Late > I hate to sound like the backside of a mule, however, considering the events occuring on this date, I believe the house of reps has wasted my payroll dollars on this. also, dohis heirs recieve back pay for this promation? Please all ask God for benevolence upon those fellow sailors who are undergoing the trial of thier lives. Peace to thier families and Wisdom to world leaders. Dave Tonneman GMM3 USN. _______________________________________________________ Say Bye to Slow Internet! http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FindArticles - The Ecological Indian: Myth and History.(Review) Date: 12 Oct 2000 19:45:29 EDT I just finished Krech's ECOLOGICAL INDIAN, and I highly recommend it to anyone on this list. John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 20:01:38 EDT Please accept my sincere condolences. John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 14 Oct 2000 20:27:50 -0400 angelia our prayers are with you---if you need anything let us know on or off line---best to you and yours---will be thinking of you and yours---off to hunt on sunday to make meat so will set my subscription to no mail then---co contact me direct if i can do anything--- best to you andf yours YMHOS =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hsteven-pepke@webtv.net (H Steven Pepke) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 18:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Angela, Please accept my sympathy and condolences for your loss. Steve Pepke True Bear Issaquah, WA Protect your Second Amendment rights, vote Republican this time! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: bordered in black Date: 12 Oct 2000 19:12:13 MDT Angela, condolences! i had the same happen in march.there will allways be a scare for that person.but time does heal,even if it hurts now. you are a good les solda and would make a good capain of ten. i wish i was as refined as some and could word this better. i know my dad and brother have given your dad a beer and offered to trade some good horse flesh and storys. which i'm sure they have both in heaven. i will sweat and go to the hills with some tobbaco.in respect for your dad and so my prayers will be closer to heaven. you can watch my back anytime bon ami. bon par bon ami ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <conner1@uswest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Metis and Buck Conner Date: 12 Oct 2000 19:51:38 -0600 --------------50D81099F050946753EDB15D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt Foster wrote: > Hi Buck, > If you are passing through this way I would be glad to show you around. Based > on your business interest I have seen on the screen. I could help you make > some appropriate introductions. There are going to be way more tourists > passing through here than there are of us.. Bring your bow. If you are > interested give me a call at 406 633 2497. > Sincerely, > Walt Foster Thanks Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring and I will have to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke (dried out) and the new one Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a trade last year. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------50D81099F050946753EDB15D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Walt Foster wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Hi Buck, If you are passing through this way I would be glad to show you around. Based on your business interest I have seen on the screen. I could help you make some appropriate introductions. There are going to be way more tourists passing through here than there are of us.. Bring your bow. If you are interested give me a call at 406 633 2497. Sincerely, Walt Foster</blockquote> Thanks Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring and I will have to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke (dried out) and the new one Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a trade last year. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ </html> --------------50D81099F050946753EDB15D-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:23:23 EDT Thanks Mike, Will give you a holler when (not if ) I be needin some educatin about the trade rifle! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:24:58 EDT Let us PLEASE keep Al Gore and politics out of this haven for the end of the day! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:36:53 EDT Frank, do you know of any ronnywous or period re-enactment events happening in the south...I am just up the road in upstate SC and would like to attend some and look around before I get into buying or making peeeriod clothes. -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis lang-michif Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:43:51 EDT Just a note: and this may help alleviate some confusion...I am from "Black Scot" ancestry (with a little cherokee for good measure - my great great grandfather single handedly intorduce several strains of VD to the eastern band) - anyway, the term was used to describe a people with olive skin, black hair and usually (for whatever reason) stayed in a whole lot of trouble due to their penchant for fighting. It is a heritage I am truly proud of. Would this make me a "metis"? -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEXASLAZYB@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:44:56 EDT Angela, I'm sorry to hear of the passing of your father. Please know that you are in our thoughts. Blue Lodge ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Buck Conner Date: 12 Oct 2000 20:50:18 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0348E.08202A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring and I will have to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke (dried out) and the new one Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a trade last year. Hi Buck, I sure hope D. isnÆt going to show her how to use it! VBG Spring is a good time to look around. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0348E.08202A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <link rel=3DFile-List href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C0348D.B3B9B860">  <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=3DSection1> Thanks Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring and I will = have to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke (dried out) and the = new one Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a trade last year. = <o:p></o:p></= p> <!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Hi= Buck,<o:p></o:p> <!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> I = sure hope D. isn’t going to show her how to use it! = VBG<o:p></o:p> <!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Sp= ring is a good time to look around.<o:p></o:p> <!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Wa= lt<o:p></o:p> Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837<o:p></o:p> Clark = Bottom Rendezvous<o:p></o:p= > Yellowsto= ne Canoe Camp<o:p></o:p= > On the = Lewis & Clark Trail<o:= p></o:p> Park = City, Montana <o:p></o:p= > <= font color=3Dblack><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p><= /p> <o:p></o:p> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0348E.08202A60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: bordered in black Date: 12 Oct 2000 20:50:22 -0600 Angela, our prayers are with you. Sincerely, Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bordered in black Date: 12 Oct 2000 23:03:33 -0400 On Thursday 12 October 2000 23:03, you wrote: > Angela, our prayers are with you. For sure! Fred -- If you listen on a quiet night, you can hear the sound of an NT Server reboot. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Metis and Buck Conner Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:16:13 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C0349A.086F6560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few = other weapons to boot. In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can = use as a weapon, military spook training being what it is. For What it's Worth Lanney Ratcliff=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:50 PM Thanks Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring = and I will have to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke = (dried out) and the new one Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a = trade last year.=20 =20 =20 Hi Buck, =20 I sure hope D. isn't going to show her how to use it! VBG =20 Spring is a good time to look around. =20 Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana=20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C0349A.086F6560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:o =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3DWord.Document name=3DProgId> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR> <META content=3D"Microsoft Word 9" name=3DOriginator><LINK=20 href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C0348D.B3B9B860" rel=3DFile-List> <STYLE>P.MsoNormal { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } A:visited { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } P { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; = MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: = auto; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New = Roman" } SPAN.EmailStyle18 { COLOR: navy; mso-style-type: personal-reply; mso-ansi-font-size: = 10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; = mso-bidi-font-family: Arial } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue style=3D"tab-interval: = .5in"=20 vLink=3Dblue> <DIV>I suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few = other=20 weapons to boot. In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can = use as a=20 weapon, military spook training being what it is.</DIV> <DIV>For What it's Worth</DIV> <DIV>Lanney Ratcliff </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20 <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">From: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:Wfoster@cw2.com" title=3DWfoster@cw2.com>Walt Foster</A> = </DIV> <DIV>To: <A href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> = </DIV> <DIV>Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:50 PM</DIV> <DIV>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Buck Conner</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV class=3DSection1> Thanks=20 Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring and I = will have=20 to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke (dried out) and the = new one=20 Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a trade last year. = <FONT=20 color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">Hi=20 Buck,<o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">I sure=20 hope D. isn’t going to show her how to use it!=20 VBG<o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">Spring=20 is a good time to look around.<o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">Walt<o:p></o:p> <FONT=20 color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">Original Rocky=20 Mountain College 1836-1837<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext; = mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Clark = Bottom=20 Rendezvous<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext; = mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">Yellowstone=20 Canoe Camp<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext; = mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">On = the Lewis=20 & Clark Trail<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext; = mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Park = City,=20 Montana <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext; = mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p></o:p> <= FONT=20 color=3Dblack><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><FONT=20 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p> =20 <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C0349A.086F6560-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff Date: 12 Oct 2000 21:29:59 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C03493.9363C500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few other weapons to boot. In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can use as a weapon, military spook training being what it is. For What it's Worth Lanney Ratcliff Hi Buck, I sure hope D. isnÆt going to show her how to use it! VBG Lanney, Most interesting. Chatter on. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C03493.9363C500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <link rel=3DFile-List href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C03492.A63C1980">  <style>  </style>  </head> <body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue = style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=3DSection1> I suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few other weapons = to boot. In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can use as a weapon, military spook training being what it = is.<o:p></o:p></font= > For What it's Worth<o:p></o:p> Lanney Ratcliff <o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Hi Buck,<o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> I sure hope D. isn’t going to show her = how to use it! VBG<o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Lanney,<o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Most interesting. Chatter = on.<o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Walt<o:p></o:p> Original Rocky Mountain College = 1836-1837<o:p></o:p> Clark = Bottom Rendezvous= <o:p></o:p> Yellow= stone Canoe Camp= <o:p></o:p> On = the Lewis & Clark Trail<o:p></o:p> Park = City, Montana <o:p></= o:p> <= span class=3DEmailStyle20><!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p><= /p> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C03493.9363C500-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Outzi Date: 12 Oct 2000 21:31:38 -0600 Hey Concho, I would like to chatter on a bit about this old time mountain man from the Alps who passed to the other side camp some 5300 years ago. He had more than 100 items with him. He is significant in the chain of history of appreciation of a mountain man then and now. Some say he carried a bow that was not yet completed. I would like to start there because this is fundamental to understand his capability. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" <icurapossum_hunter2@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzelloading In South Carolina Date: 12 Oct 2000 23:31:29 -0400 C.Kent wrote: >do you know of any ronnywous or period re-enactment events happening in the south...I am just up the road in upstate SC and would like to attend some and look around before I get into buying or making peeeriod clothes. Mr. Kent, Where in SC are you? I am in Greenville County. We have a muzzelloader club in Gray Court and a mountain man store in Pelzer. There is a bunch of us around here! Please contact me off-list. Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:36:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C0349C.EEB425E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Walt Little girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will pass and = end this thread before it starts. ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:29 PM I suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few = other weapons to boot. In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can = use as a weapon, military spook training being what it is. For What it's Worth Lanney Ratcliff=20 =20 Hi Buck, =20 I sure hope D. isn't going to show her how to use it! VBG =20 =20 Lanney, =20 Most interesting. Chatter on. =20 Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana=20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C0349C.EEB425E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3DWord.Document name=3DProgId> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR> <META content=3D"Microsoft Word 9" name=3DOriginator><LINK=20 href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C03492.A63C1980" rel=3DFile-List> <STYLE>P.MsoNormal { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } A:visited { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } P { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; = MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; = mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { COLOR: navy; mso-style-type: personal; mso-ansi-font-size: 10.0pt; = mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; = mso-bidi-font-family: Arial } SPAN.EmailStyle20 { COLOR: #993366; mso-style-type: personal-reply; mso-ansi-font-size: = 10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; = mso-bidi-font-family: Arial } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue style=3D"tab-interval: = .5in" vLink=3Dblue> <DIV>Walt</DIV> <DIV>Little girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will = pass and=20 end this thread before it starts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20 <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">From: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:Wfoster@cw2.com" title=3DWfoster@cw2.com>Walt Foster</A> = </DIV> <DIV>To: <A href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> = </DIV> <DIV>Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:29 PM</DIV> <DIV>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV class=3DSection1> I=20 suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few other = weapons=20 to boot. In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can use as a=20 weapon, military spook training being what it = is.<FONT=20 color=3D#993366><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p> For=20 What it's Worth<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Lanney = Ratcliff <FONT=20 color=3D#993366><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p> <FONT=20 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <FONT=20 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">Hi=20 Buck,<o:p></o:p> <FONT=20 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <FONT=20 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">I sure=20 hope D. isn’t going to show her how to use it!=20 VBG<o:p></o:p> <FONT=20 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> =20 Lanney,<o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Most interesting.<SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> Chatter = on.<o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">Walt<o:p></o:p> <FONT=20 color=3D#993366 size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">Original=20 Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext; = mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">Clark Bottom=20 Rendezvous<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext; = mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">Yellowstone=20 Canoe Camp<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext; = mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">On = the Lewis=20 & Clark Trail<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext; = mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt">Park City,=20 Montana <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #993366; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-color-alt: windowtext; = mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p></o:p> <= SPAN=20 class=3DEmailStyle20><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <FONT=20 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C0349C.EEB425E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:20:35 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0349A.A4E43100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Walt Little girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will pass and end this thread before it starts. Suit yourself. To chat is a relaxed form of talking about something. Maybe next time you wonÆt answer for Buck. Respectfully, Walt ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0349A.A4E43100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <link rel=3DFile-List href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C0349A.A077FD40">  <style>  </style>  </head> <body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue = style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=3DSection1> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Walt<o:p></o:p><= /p> Little girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will pass and end this = thread before it starts.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p><= /p> Suit yourself. To chat is a = relaxed form of talking about something. Maybe next time you won’t answer for = Buck.<o:p></o:p></font= > Respectfully,<font= color=3D"#003300"><o:p></o:p></font= > Walt<o:p></o:p></font= > <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0349A.A4E43100-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Outzi Date: 13 Oct 2000 00:21:27 EDT I have the original article from the paper at the time of discovery, showing drawings of items and proximity to the body. Be glad to share with anyone interested. Just got to dig it out. Till trails cross Turtle #1199 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff/Walt Alert Date: 13 Oct 2000 01:44:26 EDT > Suit yourself. To chat is a relaxed form of talking about something. May= be > next time you won=E2=80=99t answer for Buck. Walt, Looks like you got a software upgrade for that new fangled box in front of=20 you. You need to go in and set it up properly cause it is attaching all sorts of=20 garbage to your emails. Not that it makes any difference to anyone here, bu= t=20 I know of another list that will bounce all your postings back at ya because= =20 of it. Go to options. Set it to Plain text only...........turn everything else off. This will result in your messages being less than 3 gigabites long. TOF ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff Date: 13 Oct 2000 07:07:42 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C034E4.47628280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Again your predilection for condescension comes to the fore. I didn't = answer for Buck, but you know that. I will allow you to have the last = word, as you always must. Equally Respectfully Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 11:20 PM =20 Walt Little girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will pass and = end this thread before it starts. =20 Suit yourself. To chat is a relaxed form of talking about something. = Maybe next time you won't answer for Buck. Respectfully, Walt =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C034E4.47628280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3DWord.Document name=3DProgId> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR> <META content=3D"Microsoft Word 9" name=3DOriginator><LINK=20 href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C0349A.A077FD40" rel=3DFile-List> <STYLE>@font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } A:visited { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; = mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman" } P { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; = MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; = mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; = mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { COLOR: navy; mso-style-type: personal; mso-ansi-font-size: 10.0pt; = mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; = mso-bidi-font-family: Arial } SPAN.EmailStyle20 { COLOR: #993366; mso-style-type: personal; mso-ansi-font-size: 10.0pt; = mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; = mso-bidi-font-family: Arial } SPAN.EmailStyle21 { COLOR: #003300; mso-style-type: personal-reply; mso-ansi-font-size: = 10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; = mso-bidi-font-family: Arial } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue style=3D"tab-interval: = .5in" vLink=3Dblue> <DIV>Again your predilection for condescension comes to the fore. = I didn't=20 answer for Buck, but you know that. I will allow you to have the last = word, as=20 you always must.</DIV> <DIV>Equally Respectfully</DIV> <DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20 <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">From: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:Wfoster@cw2.com" title=3DWfoster@cw2.com>Walt Foster</A> = </DIV> <DIV>To: <A href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> = </DIV> <DIV>Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 11:20 PM</DIV> <DIV>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV class=3DSection1> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; = FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:<FONT=20 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Fw: = MtMan-List:=20 Lanney Ratcliff <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Walt<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p> Little=20 girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will pass and end = this=20 thread before it starts.<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <FONT=20 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p> Suit=20 yourself. To chat is a = relaxed form=20 of talking about something. = Maybe=20 next time you won’t answer for Buck.<SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #003300; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #003300; FONT-SIZE: = 12pt">Respectfully,<FONT=20 color=3D#003300><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #003300; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #003300; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Walt<FONT=20 color=3D#003300><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: #003300; mso-color-alt: = windowtext"><o:p></o:p> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: = 12.0pt"><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p><= /DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C034E4.47628280-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzelloading In South Carolina Date: 13 Oct 2000 08:54:10 -0400 Possum Hunter, Please contact me off list. Can't get an e-mail to go thru to you. Tks, Dennis Earp ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 11:31 PM > C.Kent wrote: > >do you know of any ronnywous or period re-enactment events happening in > the south...I am just up the road in upstate SC and would like to attend > some and look around before I get into buying or making peeeriod clothes. > > Mr. Kent, Where in SC are you? I am in Greenville County. We have a > muzzelloader club in Gray Court and a mountain man store in Pelzer. There is > a bunch of us around here! Please contact me off-list. > > Possum > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 13 Oct 2000 11:27:56 -0400 C.Kent, There is a rendezvous up in Dahlonega Georgia Oct 19-22. It is a nice informal rendezvous. You can bring any kind of muzzleloader except inline and shoot in the competition and you are not required to be dressed for it. I use to do this one alot awhile ago as the setting is off a main road going up to the mountains. As a vendor I use to make a nice amount of cash from the tourists. There is also knife/hawk and prim. archery. Give me a call at 77-706-9051 and leave your number and I will tell you about it. Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:36 PM > Frank, do you know of any ronnywous or period re-enactment events happening > in the south...I am just up the road in upstate SC and would like to attend > some and look around before I get into buying or making peeeriod clothes. > > -C. Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff Date: 13 Oct 2000 09:52:18 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C034FB.45F69F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt Again your predilection for condescension Lanney, sorry your not feeling well. I hope you get better soon. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C034FB.45F69F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <link rel=3DFile-List href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C034FB.375DBE60">  <style>  </style>  </head> <body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue = style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=3DSection1> Walt<o:p></o:p><= /p> Again your predilection for = condescension<o:p></o:p><= /p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p><= /p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p><= /p> Lanney, sorry your not feeling = well. I hope you get better = soon.<o:p></o:p></f= ont> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Walt<o:p></o:p> Original Rocky Mountain College = 1836-1837<o:p></o:p> Clark = Bottom Rendezvous<o:p></o:= p> Yellowst= one Canoe Camp<o:p></o:= p> On the = Lewis & Clark Trail<o= :p></o:p> Park = City, Montana <o:p></o:= p> <= span class=3DEmailStyle22><![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C034FB.45F69F00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List:TOF Date: 13 Oct 2000 10:56:14 -0600 Thanks TOF, Your bull elk is riding herd on 14 cows. Yesterday when I went by him = on the way to take my wife to the doctor I could see him bugling while = walking down a cow. He has lost a bunch of weight. Horns look good = though. A nice 6 X 7. Thanks for the helping hand. I checked the options. Thanks. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Outzi Date: 13 Oct 2000 11:00:27 -0600 I have the original article from the paper at the time of discovery, showing drawings of items and proximity to the body. Be glad to share with anyone interested. Just got to dig it out. Till trails cross Turtle #1199 ---------------------- Hi Turtle, Besides the Ice Man's bow. One of the things I looked for was his footgear. The documentaries I saw last year on the history channel showed much of his gear in detail. The have been several shows. Each one a bit better than the other in details. Does the article you have talk about his gear? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 21:43:24 -0500 > My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. > As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any > errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, > but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying > the discussion on metis. > I'm truly sorry to hear that Angela, I will mention you and your's in my prayers. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 13 Oct 2000 15:36:46 -0500 > Seems that you know your stuff. > Thank you. I have worn out a couple of library cards and almost worn out my welcome at a couple of libraries. ;-) > Do you have any books that you would recommend? My information that I have > gotten off the net leads me to believe that the Longhunter period started in > the late 1790 after the indian wars and continued into the early 1800's. It > seemed to be a very short period. > The longhunter period was a short lived period. The great herds of bison, elk and deer were long gone by the1790's. Kentucky had a large enough population to become a state in 1792, or '93, don't remember off hand. Try Seedtime on the Cumberland for a good overview of the longhunters in KY and TN. You might also read Allen Eckert's "Frontier series" of books. Start with the one about the F&I period, don't remember the name, but it's about William Johnson and his rise to fame and fortune before and during the French and Indian War. The best of the lot is the Frontiersman. It's about Simon Kenton and Tecumseh. Eckert's books are a good read for a reasonable overview of the culture of the various periods covered in those books. Be aware that while Eckert did considerable research, his books are historical FICTION, and he did take considerable literary license with the truth. The only reliable parts of Eckert's books are listed in the bibliography. Everything else is FICTION. They are a good read though. Use the bibliography in books and at the end of magazine articles for reference materials. Those books listed in the bib are the source for the information quoted in books and magazines, and you can learn allot just by reading those sources. > When I attend the rendezvous I am usually wearing my deerskin leggins, > breach cloth, mocs along with a home made muslin shirt. My outer coat is > made of duck and it follows the traditional look, very plain. I try to be > as authentic as possible and have had many positive comments from both the > old indians and ol timers on the articles and garments that I have made.. > This does make me feel good but there is always room for inprovement. > Sounds like you pretty well have it together, and that's good. > I believe that my gear to be affective for me has to have medicine. By this > I mean that it must mean something to me. Your gear might mean allot to you and not be effective. The only way you can determine what is effective and what is not effective is to carry that gear in the woods for a few days and see how well it works. You will get some idea of how your gear works by merely trekking, but to really know how well everything works, wear those clothes, and carry that gear while hunting and practicing woodcraft. There are several good books on woodcraft, the best of the lot are; Bushcraft by Graves. Now out of print. Northern Burshcraft, by Mors Kochanski, and the Naked into the Wilderness books by Mc Pherson. >You will not see me carry any > manuf. equipment, excluding the gun and that will change one day. The hawk > I carry was made by a Cherokee friend, the bowie by an old buckskinner, the > leggins leather I got out of a trade for a badgerskin possibles bag that I > made, I later made the leggins. Well, it's OK to make everything yourself, but ya gotta remember that there were certain things that common folks just didn't ordinarily make. Guns was one of them. Knives and hatchets were some others. Most of those Items were traded, but you have the right idea by wanting hand made items. > > I take it more seriously than most but not as serious as some. My biggest > problem now is making a pack that will fit my needs, which are not much. I > have scraped the lean to for a 7x7 foot duck tarp that will be an everything > shelter. Compact, light and very versatile. Lots of folks take this hobby REAL serious and won't use any mass produced gear. I know one person who occasionally wears a hand made hunting shirt made with hand spun linen and wool, and hand woven on a period loom. Notice I said he occasionally wears this hunting shirt. He has about $300 tied up in that one shirt. Too rich for my blood. The 7X7 tarp is fine, if that will keep you dry and out of the wind. I carry a 9X7 tarp that can be set up with one pole in the middle of one side. The front corners are pulled in as tight as possible to the pole and staked down when the weather gets real bad. This set up keeps me snuggy warm and dry in even the worst weather, but most times I just use the tarp as an envelope. I say that this set up Can be done with one pole, but I usually use a 7 ft pole, or two, inside to support the canvas. > > Alot of the sites I visit on the web seem to cater to the mountain man fur > trade and his needs. If you have a site/s that may cater to the southern > gent who ventured up and down the east coast and sometimes ventured out west > to the mountains. I would be interested. Beware of undocumented information on the web. Anyone can post anything. Right or wrong. Run a search on historical trekking, or living history. Those two categories should keep you busy for a while. This web address will give you a good list of reading material. Hope you have a good library near by. ;-) http://www.hawkcommunications.com/liming/alra/ J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: MtMan-List: METIS Date: 13 Oct 2000 19:10:26 -0700 Beam me up Scotty ! Or, just stick a fork in me, cause I'm almost done ! Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis lang-michif Date: 13 Oct 2000 19:06:28 -0700 Would this make me a "metis"? >>Mr. Kent, Huh, No. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <conner1@uswest.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Interesting site. Date: 13 Oct 2000 18:59:11 -0600 --------------855286D2760B4150C14E22EA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought you might be interested in this site, HREF="http://www.usflag.org/toc.flags.html" Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------855286D2760B4150C14E22EA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Thought you might be interested in this site, HREF="<A HREF="http://www.usflag.org/toc.flags.html">http://www.usflag.org/toc.flags.html</A>" Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ </html> --------------855286D2760B4150C14E22EA-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <conner1@uswest.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Ice Man Information. Date: 13 Oct 2000 19:11:02 -0600 --------------EF13745052B6427C291BF48F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt Foster wrote: > I have the original article from the paper at the time of discovery, showing > drawings of items and proximity to the body. Be glad to share with anyone > interested. Just got to dig it out. > > Till trails cross > > Turtle #1199 > > ---------------------- > > Hi Turtle, > > Besides the Ice Man's bow. One of the things I looked for was his footgear. > The documentaries I saw last year on the history channel showed much of his > gear in detail. The have been several shows. Each one a bit better than > the other in details. > > Does the article you have talk about his gear? > > Walt Hey Turtle, I have received e-mails about this "Ice Man" off list from members of this list that didn't want to start a "thread" that some where not interested in. Seems to be several interested in your article, let me know the cost of copying it and postage to Colorado, I'll send you the funds and copy it to an e-mail so those interested can enjoy this great find, then after we are done reviewing it we can talk about this early mountain man being more knowledgeable of him and his wares. From there we could compare the items he carried with what we have and how his or our period items maybe alike or better and so on. Could be we may find he knew something our forefather's slipped up on or then again improved on, could be lengthy and we may need to go off list and discuss this between ourselves if not everyone is interested. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------EF13745052B6427C291BF48F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Walt Foster wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>I have the original article from the paper at the time of discovery, showing drawings of items and proximity to the body. Be glad to share with anyone interested. Just got to dig it out. Till trails cross Turtle #1199 ---------------------- Hi Turtle, Besides the Ice Man's bow. One of the things I looked for was his footgear. The documentaries I saw last year on the history channel showed much of his gear in detail. The have been several shows. Each one a bit better than the other in details. Does the article you have talk about his gear? Walt</blockquote> Hey Turtle, I have received e-mails about this "Ice Man" off list from members of this list that didn't want to start a "thread" that some where not interested in. Seems to be several interested in your article, let me know the cost of copying it and postage to Colorado, I'll send you the funds and copy it to an e-mail so those interested can enjoy this great find, then after we are done reviewing it we can talk about this early mountain man being more knowledgeable of him and his wares. From there we could compare the items he carried with what we have and how his or our period items maybe alike or better and so on. Could be we may find he knew something our forefather's slipped up on or then again improved on, could be lengthy and we may need to go off list and discuss this between ourselves if not everyone is interested. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ </html> --------------EF13745052B6427C291BF48F-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzelloading In South Carolina Date: 13 Oct 2000 22:04:03 EDT Possum Hunter, Tell me more about this bunch of mtn. men around the upstate here! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis lang-michif Date: 13 Oct 2000 22:20:52 EDT Just wondering, Pendleton. Guess you, huh, told me, huh? -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 14 Oct 2000 09:49:02 -0700 The biggest and probably the best is the Alafia, that will be held 3rd to 4th weekend -Jan 2001, near Tampa, Fla. http://members.xoom.com/manyscalps/indexpre1840.htm Larger than the Southeastern. Linda Holley HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Frank, do you know of any ronnywous or period re-enactment events happening > in the south...I am just up the road in upstate SC and would like to attend > some and look around before I get into buying or making peeeriod clothes. > > -C. Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Western Teritorial? Date: 14 Oct 2000 07:55:40 -0600 Gentelmen, When and where is the Western Teritorial, I can't locate my Mocasin Mail? YMOS Ole #718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Laguna Mountain Rendezvous Date: 14 Oct 2000 09:59:41 -0400 Barney, Please provide location details. I know how to find Julian. Tom LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > Hello the camp... A grand event coming up 10/18 through 10/22, in the > northern San Diego county area of Southern California, near Julian. > It's primitive, but not a 'juried' event; we run this one to help 'greenies' > get started. > > Anybody from either list that's going to be attending? Have an interest in > having a list members get-together? Let me know, here or offline, and we can > post a meetin' notice on the bulletin board at the entrance to camp... > > Ralph (Barney Fife aka Shoots Himself aka Hole-In-Arm) > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Great Mink Caper, Animal Rights caper backfires Date: 14 Oct 2000 11:22:38 -0400 I received this in my e-mail this morning and, knowing the problems that we re-enactors sometimes have with Animal Rights people, I had to pass it on....LOL Manbear > In August at several mink farms in England, animal rights activists > surreptitiously "liberated" 6,000 of the aggressive, unruly animals. In > the following weeks came dozens of reports of minks killing pets (dogs, > cats, hamsters), chickens, birds in a sanctuary and endangered water > voles. Many minks themselves were killed, either by people protecting > their own animals or in fights with other minks, and some minks were > said to have died of the stress of being released into the wild. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jody & Scott" <sjsdm@conpoint.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Charlotte, NC Date: 14 Oct 2000 13:28:11 -0500 Esteemed List Members, I will be finding myself in Charlotte, NC, over the weekend of the 21st-22nd, October... Is there anything there abouts that I should be sure to see? I will have all of Sunday to myself, and I am interested to find a museum or such to visit. In advance, I thank you, Scott C sjsdm@conpoint.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rkleinx2@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Parks Date: 14 Oct 2000 15:24:34 EDT Trappers knew certain locales in present Colorado as North Park, Middle Park and South Park. Would someone please idenify these places for me by naming a town that is in each of these 'Parks'. ( Or any other suitable method such as township etc.). Thank you. Dick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 14 Oct 2000 19:55:35 EDT Maybe one of you coons out there can answer me a question. I was hiking today with a hiking buddy who used to sponsor a few ronnys at his place (and has some fantastic custom flinters by the way) and the term "Eastern Mtn. Man" (not long hunter) wsa used to describe their persona. Does anyone know the difference between the Eastern vs. Western Mtn. Men? Also, when is the chat group held and what time! Thanks! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 14 Oct 2000 17:24:02 -0700 Does anyone know > the difference between the Eastern vs. Western Mtn. Men? C. Kent, Not to be flippent but basicly the Western Mtn. Men were the Eastern Mtn. Men gone west. The eastern mt. man might be classed with any group of frontiersmen that roamed the eastern woodlands and mountains beyond the edge of civilization up to and including the start of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade on or about the time of Capt.s Lewis and Clarks return. The eastern mt. man in the guise of several members of that expedition went with the Capt.s as hunters and etc. The titles only serve to separate the grounds on which such men roamed. Their mode's of operation changed some what with the changing needs of their suroundings and the connections with commercial enterprise and such but generally, I believe they are basicly the same people perhaps separated by the span of time and changes in fashion and gear to a small degree. One might see small differences in clothing and gear but not that great a difference. Foot travel might have been more common amongst the eastern mtn. man but horses were used. The western mtn. man by necessity was mounted or looking for his next horse. Because of that difference there was a difference in what was carried to a point though I don't think personal gear was all that different. The guns weren't all that different until late in the RMFT era when they started to become short bbls with half stocks and very late in the eara, percussion. The clothing was a bit different though it is hard to know exactly what was worn since very little other than contemporary paintings and some few written discriptions exist and they are all under suspicion for one reason or another. Generally I think we have gotten it wrong for the most part in the past history of modern buckskinning. Well, anyway the list has been quiet so perhaps this will stir things up a bit. <G> Always good for an opinion, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' What chat group? There's a bunch of us getting together tonight in Hermiston to chat with our long lost Brother, Mssr. Ron Petrie lately from Manila, where he has been posted to do government business and sell our furs sent out from Astoria, but it is a closed party. <G> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 14 Oct 2000 07:15:33 -0700 C.Kent- From what I know.... the first Mountain Men were fresh from the East (1820's). I , and others, refer to these men as 'transitional'. They had much in common with the Eastern Longhunters, but with time and distance assumed a little different custom of dress and behavior. I tend to portray a 'transitional' Mtn. Man, ie. early period. This is probably what your friends call an Eastern Mtn. Man? My friends call me a 'cross dresser'.... Gotta love those guys <g>.... Hope this helps..... hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parks Date: 14 Oct 2000 23:13:54 -0600 Dick, While the parks were loosely used to describe certain areas, they can be easily found yet today. The easiest to mention is "South Park" (Bayou Salade or salt marsh) - a large mountain valley which stretches from Kenoska Pass on the north side to about Red Hill on the south (which is almost to the Arkansas River). Towns in it are Fairpaly, Como and Jefferson. "Middle Park", (old park) a higher park which is close to the eastern side of the Contential Divide and would include: Granby, Frasier and is just west of Rocky Mountian National Park. North Park is on the Colorado/ Wyoming border. Some times called the "Bull Pen" or "New Park". This one I'm less familiar with, Was probably around Four Corners and then goes north to the Medicine Bow mountains in Wyoming. You can follow the LAramie River into Colorado and is seems to be in this park. Alot of the old maps aren't clear on bounderies for the two upper parks. Hope this helps, if you want more info, let me know. mike. Rkleinx2@aol.com wrote: > Trappers knew certain locales in present Colorado as North Park, Middle Park > and South Park. Would someone please idenify these places for me by naming a > town that is in each of these 'Parks'. ( Or any other suitable method such as > township etc.). > Thank you. > Dick > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: is PC? Date: 15 Oct 2000 06:35:45 -0500 JD said of a fellow 'skinner, <hand made hunting shirt made with hand spun linen and wool, and hand woven on a period loom. Notice I said he occasionally wears this hunting shirt. He has about $300 tied up in that one shirt.> Very good point. 'Back then' what might have been considered common and ordinary is either unattainable or prohibitively expensive. Most of us do our best with what we have and just try to improve as we go. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Alternitive list Date: 15 Oct 2000 09:43:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0368C.6FDC3E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey All, Interested in a list alternative???=20 Goto http://www.egroups.com/group/scalpdance and check it out... Read = the "rules" and description carefully.... D " ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0368C.6FDC3E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY background=3D"" bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Hey All,</DIV> <DIV>Interested in a list alternative??? Goto = <A=20 href=3D"http://www.egroups.com/group/scalpdance">http://www.egroups.com/g= roup/scalpdance</A><FONT=20 size=3D2> and check it out... Read the "rules" and = description=20 carefully.... D "</DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0368C.6FDC3E00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 12:11:58 -0500 > Does anyone know > > the difference between the Eastern vs. Western Mtn. Men? > > C. Kent, > > Not to be flippent but basicly the Western Mtn. Men were the Eastern Mtn. > Men gone west. The eastern mt. man might be classed with any group of > frontiersmen that roamed the eastern woodlands and mountains beyond the edge > of civilization up to and including the start of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade on > or about the time of Capt.s Lewis and Clarks return. The eastern mt. man in > the guise of several members of that expedition went with the Capt.s as > hunters and etc. > Well, IMHO, you are part right. I have seen one reference calling the eastern mountain men the"over the mountain men" because they traveled west of, or over, the Allegheny mountains. > Foot travel might have been more common amongst the eastern Mt.. > man but horses were used. The western Mt.. man by necessity was mounted or > looking for his next horse. Because of that difference there was a > difference in what was carried to a point though I don't think personal >gear was all that different. Hmmm, not sure how common foot travel really was. Lets not forget that the early over the mountain men were primarily traders and not hunters or trappers, and they couldn't carry much in the way of trade goods on their backs. IF they walked, they certainly lead a pack string, and more probably, they lead a pack string while on horseback. And lets consider how they might have transported the skins and fur back to civilization if they were afoot. Not likely at all. One alternative method of transportation was by boat, and then we need to consider how much bulk and weight could a few men transport in boats vs the amount of skins the same number of men could transport via a pack train, and which method would be more, or less labor intensive. Horses are mentioned allot in Colonial period documentation, and with the distances traveled, and the amount of skins traded why would they walk? Just my tupence J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 12:07:48 -0700 > Well, IMHO, you are part right. I have seen one reference calling the > eastern mountain men the"over the mountain men" because they traveled > west of, or over, the Allegheny mountains. Kent, See, I told you we'd get things stired up some. <G> In a polite way of course. <G> Now as to the term "over the mountains" men, I have heard that used as a reference for the "group" of frontiersmen who actually lived with families, etc. on the very edge or beyond the edge of what was at the time eastern civilization (the towns and villages of settled Colonial and post Rev. War America) but were considered a step above or by some to be on a par with the wild savage. And in at least one famous battle these "over the mountain" men came riding to the rescue from "over the mountain" as it were. Not to take away from what J.D. added but the question was "what's the difference between the eastern and the western mtn. man?" and as I see it there were many varied inidviduals and lifestyles represented over the course of our history that fit within the defines of "mountain man/men". I see early discourse on this subject as having very narrowly singled out one small group and sumarily hung the Title, "Mountain Men" on that group while tending to ignore many others just as deserving of the title. The boschloper, the long hunter, the spy/scout, Rangers, the "over moutain men", the Metis, the courier du bouis, the voyageur, the Rocky Mountain Fur Trapper, etc. all fit into that mistique in one way or another and there are probably groups that I have left out much less misspelled. <G> To exclude some is to fail to pay due respect or celebrate the courage and wanderlust they represent and the part they all play in the history of our country. The quintesential "Mountain Man" is the lone "trekker" by foot or by horse or by boat that roamed the uncharted vastness of this new country. To define by narrow perameters is a mistake. Some eastern and most if not all western "mtn. men" were mounted. Many eastern and some western mtn. men traveled much by water craft (which by the way will haul one hell of a lot more tonnage for effort expended than pack train) rather than by horse. A very few if any (and probably none by choice) western mtn. men and many more eastern mtn. men traveled on foot. IF they walked, they certainly lead a pack string, and more probably, > they lead a pack string while on horseback. It is folly to say that the eastern hunter did not use horses. Of course he did. Did he use canoe, dugout and raft along with bateau to travel and carry on trade? Of course he did. Did he wander off into the forest on foot for weeks or months at a time? Yes. On purpose? Yes. Did the western mt. man do the same? Not very often. It is all generalization. > > And lets consider how they might have transported the skins and fur back > to civilization if they were afoot. Not likely at all. One alternative > method > of transportation was by > boat, and then we need to consider how much bulk and weight > could a few men transport in boats vs the amount of skins the same > number of men could transport via a pack train, and which method > would be more, or less labor intensive. This I have to vigoursly disagree with. I would venture to say that much more freight (skins, etc.) traveled by boat than did by horse back or mules or even cart. The tonnage that can be sent down river from the mountains is many times greater than what can be packstringed out. And with considerably less effort. L&C went up river by boat as far as that mode would take them. They went down the Columbia by boat to the ocean. The Wilson Price Hunt venture to Astoria went up river by boat and then down the Columbia by boat to Astoria. Pitch Pine and oakum were sent to the mountains to caulk plank built boats during the western fur trade used to transport product back down river. There are numerous accounts of water craft from bull boats to very large craft such as flatboats being built and used to move men and products up and down eastern and western rivers from the very beginnings of this country. The french canadian voyagure traveled thousands of miles in large birch frieght canoes and even larger plank built York Boats, Makinaw Boats, Columbia River Boats, etc. The goods moved by pack string was a miniscual drop in the bucket compared to that moved over water. But lest we romanticize one group over another, I suggest we are here to celebrate them all. Whether a lone wanderer or a member of a of large bridage of company men going where few if any europeans had ever gone, they all deserve our respect, admiration and emulation. Eastern, Western, Northern, Southern Mountain Men, Metis, whomever, they are All Heros. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 14:56:32 -0500 On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:07:48 -0700 "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> writes: > > >> Kent, > >. And in at least one famous battle these "over > the > mountain" men came riding to the rescue from "over the mountain" as > it were. Professor Capt. Lahti, <G> Which famous battle are you referring to? Eagerly awaiting your answer, Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 13:52:05 -0700 > Professor Capt. Lahti, <G> > > Which famous battle are you referring to? > > Eagerly awaiting your answer, > Victoria Dang! I knew someone was gona call me on this! <G>. Was during the Rev War. Was on a mountain. Wasn't Fergusons Rifles there and wasn't he kilt? Or almost captured? Come on guys, what was the name of the Battle? <G> Battle of ????? Mountain? Our side wasn't doing all that hot and in comes the "over mountain men" on horse and they went on up the mountain and ran the British off the hill. Right? Maybe we can drop the "Professor" part? <G> OK, OK, I got it, Battle of King's Mountain, South Carolina, Oct. 7, 1780. Under Col. Campbell (400 Virginia riflemen) and Cleveland (350 North Carolina riflemen), John Sevier (with 240 over-mountain men) and Isaac Shelby (with another 240 over-mountain men), a total of 1,400 riflemen of the farmer, hunter and Indian fighting class, march to intercept Major Patrick Ferguson and his 1,100 Lyalists, etc., etc........... Ferguson and his men all Tories except their leader, attempt to hold the hight with the bayonet, while the back woodsmen, or "the yelling boys", assail with the rifle. Twice the Tories force the Patriots down the mountain. The third time this happens, the backwoodsmen swarm up, take the position, kill Ferguson with eight rifle balls and continue killing the surrendering Tories until order is resumed. Etc, Etc. (quoted from "The Frontier Rifleman" by Richard B. laCrosse, Jr.) Did that answer your question Victoria? I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 18:16:38 -0500 The > third time > this happens, the backwoodsmen swarm up, take the position, kill > Ferguson > with eight rifle balls and continue killing the surrendering Tories > until > order is resumed. Etc, Etc. (quoted from "The Frontier Rifleman" by > Richard > B. laCrosse, Jr.) > > Did that answer your question Victoria? I remain.... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' Capt. Lahti', Ah yes, now I remember reading, last November, about this battle in "The Frontier Rifleman". That was 500 books and two Rendezvous ago. At my age, I can't be expected to remember every little detail!! <G> Thanks for tweaking my memory, Victoria > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 16:56:16 -0700 > Ah yes, now I remember reading, last November, > about this battle in "The Frontier Rifleman". That > was 500 books and two Rendezvous ago. > At my age, I can't be expected to remember every > little detail!! <G> > > Thanks for tweaking my memory, > Victoria Victoria, At your tender age my dear young lady?! Really now, and you expect an old sea dog as myself to be able to dredge up every scrap of flotsam that's passed under my bowsprit since day one? <G> Well, I'm pleased to freshen up your memory at least even if I can't freshen up your grog cup. I remain, of course...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western Teritorial? Date: 15 Oct 2000 05:47:51 -0700 Ole, Did anyone ever answer your question about where the Western will be...I just found my directions...contact me off list for a copy...hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20Eastern=20Mtn.=20Men=20vs.=20Weste?= Date: 15 Oct 2000 21:02:17 EDT In a message dated 10/15/00 1:46:51 PM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << Twice the Tories force the Patriots down the mountain. The third time this happens, the backwoodsmen swarm up, take the position, kill Ferguson with eight rifle balls and continue killing the surrendering Tories until order is resumed. Etc, Etc. (quoted from "The Frontier Rifleman" by Richard B. laCrosse, Jr.) >> AND THIS IS JUST FROM HIS MEMORY! WAIT TILL HE ACTUALLY LOOKS IT=20 UP...UNBELIEVABLE.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 21:50:17 EDT Thanks for the input! Is anyone familiar with any good resources to guide me as I begin to put together my clothing and possibles? I want to do an accurate portrayal without making some costly errors at the onset! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 22:11:34 EDT Capt. Lahti, I appreciate your thoughts on the differences in the eastern vs. the western mtn. men. I DID notice a reference tothe "over the mtn. men" coming to hte rescue...I am assuming that you are referring to the "OverMountain Men" who showed up at the Battle of Kings Mtn against "Bloody Tarleton" and the British forces there. These were not all "over-the-mtn. men" entirely - though some must surely have been in that esteemed number. Most were merchants and "corncrackers" who rallied at Ft. Watauga near what is present-day Johnson City, TN and marched over the mtn.s to reach the battle. Many of these men were "civilized" folk...and held positions of community and family responsibility in the (shudder) day-to-day operations of the township where they (shudder) had established households. Having lived within spitting distance of Ft. Watauga and on45 minutes of Kings Mtn. Battle site I have become somewhat-versed on the battle and the men who fought (but am by no means am an expert). I cannot imagine that some over-the-mtn.-men did not number among the OverMountain Men! Just another thought to keep the chat going! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 22:17:33 EDT Capt. Lahti, My apologies...I did not see the posting re: the battle of Keng's Mtn. to Victoria before I responded my assumption that you were referring to this famous battle (which, indeed, you were). Thanks, -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=85=C2=B9=C3=B7=C2=BF=C2=A8=C2=BF=12=E2=80=9E`=1B?= Date: 15 Oct 2000 22:25:33 EDT Magpie, Just curious about your moniker! Did the writings of a certain Terry C. Johnston inspire this name? For those of you who have not read them, the author Terry C. Johnston has a series of books outlining the life of a young man (Mr. Titus Bass) as he moves from a youth in Kaintuck thru his life as a veteran fur trapper in the Shining Mtn.s. DO NOT confuse him with T. JohnstonE - who wrote a series of books tagged as his mtn. man series...they are NOT and are bad writing by any measure! The Johnston books were not written in chronological order of the main character's life but are "hard to put down" reading. HE does a wonderful job of weaving in many of the well-known characters of the furtrade era and a slew of the geopgraphic places and names that appear in the known history texts of this era. If you read these..you will enjoy these! These come in paperback and the first in the series is Dance On The Wind...the inside page tell he rest of the series in order. Sincerely, -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: MtMan-List: =?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6IE10TWFuLUxpc3Q6IMMuwrnDt8K/wqjCvxLiP3pgG+I/fg==?= Date: 15 Oct 2000 22:33:02 -0400 Dance on the wind I believe is the first book, Borderlords is the second and One eyed dream is the third in the Scratch and Paddock adventures. If you manage to read them out of order, do not worry as they are written very well and you can still understand what went and is going on. Very good reading. FVR > Magpie, > > Just curious about your moniker! Did the writings of a certain Terry C. > Johnston inspire this name? > > For those of you who have not read them, the author Terry C. Johnston has a > series of books outlining the life of a young man (Mr. Titus Bass) as he > moves from a youth in Kaintuck thru his life as a veteran fur trapper in the > Shining Mtn.s. DO NOT confuse him with T. JohnstonE - who wrote a series of > books tagged as his mtn. man series...they are NOT and are bad writing by any > measure! The Johnston books were not written in chronological order of the > main character's life but are "hard to put down" reading. HE does a > wonderful job of weaving in many of the well-known characters of the furtrade > era and a slew of the geopgraphic places and names that appear in the known > history texts of this era. If you read these..you will enjoy these! These > come in paperback and the first in the series is Dance On The Wind...the > inside page tell he rest of the series in order. > > Sincerely, > > -C. Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 21:49:03 -0500 There was also a rather good show on this battle on the History Channel, = as part of their "Frontier: The Decisive Battles" series. The "over = Mountain Men" were mostly farmers and hunters from the other side of the = mountain, and were called into service to put paid to Ferguson. The = show appeared to be very accurate according to what I've read elsewhere, = and has a LOT of footage of various militia and hunter types of the = period. Now, as to THEIR accuracy, I can't say, but they do seem to = match the descriptions from the Frontier Rifleman (good book, by the = way), and my Sketchbook '76. Todd (who's 'bout decided to portray an easterner -I do like them = looooong rifles. =3D) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Roger Lahti > Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 3:52 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Professor Capt. Lahti, <G> > > > > Which famous battle are you referring to? > > > > Eagerly awaiting your answer, > > Victoria >=20 > Dang! I knew someone was gona call me on this! <G>. Was during=20 > the Rev War. > Was on a mountain. Wasn't Fergusons Rifles there and wasn't he kilt? = Or > almost captured? Come on guys, what was the name of the Battle? <G> = Battle > of ????? Mountain? Our side wasn't doing all that hot and in=20 > comes the "over > mountain men" on horse and they went on up the mountain and ran=20 > the British > off the hill. Right? Maybe we can drop the "Professor" part? <G> >=20 > OK, OK, I got it, Battle of King's Mountain, South Carolina, Oct. 7, = 1780. > Under Col. Campbell (400 Virginia riflemen) and Cleveland (350 North > Carolina riflemen), John Sevier (with 240 over-mountain men) and Isaac > Shelby (with another 240 over-mountain men), a total of 1,400 riflemen = of > the farmer, hunter and Indian fighting class, march to intercept Major > Patrick Ferguson and his 1,100 Lyalists, etc., etc........... Ferguson = and > his men all Tories except their leader, attempt to hold the hight with = the > bayonet, while the back woodsmen, or "the yelling boys", assail with = the > rifle. Twice the Tories force the Patriots down the mountain. The=20 > third time > this happens, the backwoodsmen swarm up, take the position, kill = Ferguson > with eight rifle balls and continue killing the surrendering Tories = until > order is resumed. Etc, Etc. (quoted from "The Frontier Rifleman"=20 > by Richard > B. laCrosse, Jr.) >=20 > Did that answer your question Victoria? I remain.... >=20 > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 19:52:16 -0700 AND THIS IS JUST FROM HIS MEMORY! WAIT TILL HE ACTUALLY LOOKS IT UP...UNBELIEVABLE.... Ymos, Magpie I finally did look it up and you know, it's almost word for word. <G> Like someone else claims, "A Mind Like a Rusty Steel Trap and Illegal in 36 States!" <G> Miss Victoria sure had me going there for a fair turn of the bells. Caught me with me legs out a scupper for sure she did. "Arghh, Matey, The Dead Be the Lucky Ones Billy H'awkens!" <G> I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com> Subject: Fwd: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Parks Date: 15 Oct 2000 19:47:51 -0700 (PDT) > > THE TOWN IN NORTH PARK IS WALDEN. > I LIVED THREE YEARS ON A CATTLE > RANCH THERE AND WENT TO GRADE > SCHOOL IN WALDEN.....MEL SWIFT > > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com> > To: swift@texhoma.net <swift@texhoma.net> > Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000 10:45 AM > Subject: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: Parks > > > > > >--- Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 23:13:54 -0600 > >> From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> > >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parks > >> Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >> > >> Dick, > >> While the parks were loosely used to describe > >> certain areas, they can be > >> easily found yet today. The easiest to mention is > >> "South Park" (Bayou Salade > >> or salt marsh) - a large mountain valley which > >> stretches from Kenoska Pass > >> on the north side to about Red Hill on the south > >> (which is almost to the > >> Arkansas River). Towns in it are Fairpaly, Como > and > >> Jefferson. > >> "Middle Park", (old park) a higher park which > is > >> close to the eastern side of > >> > >> the Contential Divide and would include: Granby, > >> Frasier and is just west of > >> Rocky Mountian National Park. > >> North Park is on the Colorado/ Wyoming > border. > >> Some times called the > >> "Bull Pen" or "New Park". This one I'm less > familiar > >> with, Was probably > >> around Four Corners and then goes north to the > >> Medicine Bow mountains > >> in Wyoming. You can follow the LAramie River into > >> Colorado and is seems > >> to be in this park. Alot of the old maps aren't > >> clear on bounderies for the two > >> upper parks. Hope this helps, if you want more > info, > >> let me know. > >> mike. > >> > >> Rkleinx2@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> > Trappers knew certain locales in present > Colorado > >> as North Park, Middle Park > >> > and South Park. Would someone please idenify > >> these places for me by naming a > >> > town that is in each of these 'Parks'. ( Or any > >> other suitable method such as > >> > township etc.). > >> > Thank you. > >> > Dick > >> > > >> > ---------------------- > >> > hist_text list info: > >> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: > >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >===== > >George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > > > >Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the > skyline. > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. > >http://im.yahoo.com/ > > > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 20:06:28 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 6:50 PM > Thanks for the input! Is anyone familiar with any good resources to guide me > as I begin to put together my clothing and possibles? I want to do an > accurate portrayal without making some costly errors at the onset! > > -C. Kent C. Kent, Try the aforementioned "The Frontier Rifleman" and the Book of Buckskinning" series from Muzzle Loader Mag publisher Scurlock. Capt. Lahti ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels Date: 15 Oct 2000 21:03:21 -0600 The first trilogy begins with "Carry the Wind" not "Dance on the Wind" and continues with "Borderlords" and "One-Eyed Dream". THEN comes "Dance on the Wind" followed by "Buffalo Palace" and "Crack in the Sky." The Titus Bass stories continue in "Ride the Moon Down" and conclude (for now) with "Death Rattle." There are eight of them in all, and it's easy to get them confused. I have thoroughly enjoyed them as recreational reading between between more serious stuff. If you haven't read them yet, enjoy! Same goes for Allan Eckerts' "Winning of America" series beginnijng with "The Frontiersman." "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party, #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 20:13:57 -0700 I cannot imagine that some over-the-mtn.-men did not > number among the OverMountain Men! > > Just another thought to keep the chat going! C. Kent, Your obviously closer to that part of our history than I am. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 20:17:24 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 7:17 PM > Capt. Lahti, > > My apologies...I did not see the posting re: the battle of Keng's Mtn. to > Victoria before I responded my assumption that you were referring to this > famous battle (which, indeed, you were). C. Kent, More knowledge shared need never be reason for an apology. None expected. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 21:11:16 -0600 C. Kent, I would add Rex Norman's "The 1837 Sketchbook of the Western Fur trade" and possibly Ted Springs' "A Shining Time, Vol. 1." Both have helpful suggestions. "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party, #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20=C3=85x=C3=B7=C2=BF=C2=A8=C2=BF=12?= Date: 15 Oct 2000 23:44:54 EDT In a message dated 10/15/00 7:26:22 PM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: << Magpie, Just curious about your moniker! Did the writings of a certain Terry C. Johnston inspire this name? >> Haaaaaaa......no, my "nom-de-plume" came from the Great Capt Lahti. Not sure how he came up with it, (I figured it was cause I'm handsome and know how to fly) but more likely he figured I was always pickin up shiney stuff....<G> <<the author Terry C. Johnston has a series of books outlining the life of a young man (Mr. Titus Bass)>> I have read the Titus Bass series.....good reading for fiction! Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels Date: 15 Oct 2000 23:13:17 -0600 Todd, You pilgrim, you. I see you got your number. Congratuations! But, I'll still remember you as a lost pilgrim wondering in camp. Hope to see you again sometime. mike. Todd Glover wrote: > The first trilogy begins with "Carry the Wind" not "Dance on the Wind" > and continues with "Borderlords" and "One-Eyed Dream". THEN comes "Dance > on the Wind" followed by "Buffalo Palace" and "Crack in the Sky." The > Titus Bass stories continue in "Ride the Moon Down" and conclude (for > now) with "Death Rattle." > There are eight of them in all, and it's easy to get them confused. I > have thoroughly enjoyed them as recreational reading between between more > serious stuff. If you haven't read them yet, enjoy! Same goes for Allan > Eckerts' "Winning of America" series beginnijng with "The Frontiersman." > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > Poison River Party, #1784 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" <cypmcgc@oregontrail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 21:18:21 -0700 The "Book of Buckskinning" series can be found on Bibliofind in the price range of $10-20 each. Great books. gail carbiener > > > Thanks for the input! Is anyone familiar with any good resources to guide > me > > as I begin to put together my clothing and possibles? I want to do an > > accurate portrayal without making some costly errors at the onset! > > > > -C. Kent > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western Teritorial? Date: 15 Oct 2000 10:30:06 -0700 Ole, I just heard from Jim H. . The elevation is 5200' hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels Date: 16 Oct 2000 15:50:26 EDT In a message dated 10/15/00, tetontodd@juno.com writes: << The first trilogy begins with "Carry the Wind" not "Dance on the Wind" and continues with "Borderlords" and "One-Eyed Dream". THEN comes "Dance on the Wind" followed by "Buffalo Palace" and "Crack in the Sky." The Titus Bass stories continue in "Ride the Moon Down" and conclude (for now) with "Death Rattle." >> This is correct in as much as this is the order in which they were written. However in order of Titus Bass' life, "Dance on the Wind" followed by "Buffalo Palace" and "Crack in the Sky" then "Carry the Wind" followed by "Borderlords" and "One-Eyed Dream" and then "Ride the Moon Down" and "Death Rattle" would not be an incorrect order in which to read them. Now have got everyone thoroughly confused? When I talked to Terry Johnston at a book-signing after the first two trilogies had been released he said that there were to be three more books. That of course would be "Ride the Moon Down" and "Death Rattle" which means there is one more. I'll only say that he said "That will be the hardest book I've ever written." Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parks Date: 16 Oct 2000 13:38:16 -0600 Just curious; in Canada, the word 'parks' was used to mean the same thing as 'buffalo pound'. Does this apply to these 'parks' too, or is it completely unrelated? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: furtrade boats Date: 16 Oct 2000 20:16:14 GMT I am looking for someone making a bateaux...can anyone out there help with this? Thanks in advance! Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: furtrade boats Date: 16 Oct 2000 20:35:29 GMT Scott, Boy do I have the fellow for you; his name is Phil Spurlin from El Reno, Oklahoma. He had plans, photos, and a ton of historical information with him at the doins' in Lawton. He spent some time with a Bateaux society this summer and did a trip down the James(?) river. Phil and Joe Curtis were making tentative plans to build one I think. I will have his phone number tonight, and will forward to you if interested. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parks Date: 16 Oct 2000 15:42:45 -0600 Angela, It seems that in Colorado the word "park" is a open area, usually flat and with water. The three which I'm familiar with are high mountain valleys which were tradional hunting grounds in the late fall and winter. The buffalo, elk and even antelope came into these areas when snow was deep in the hills around them and in the early spring when these parks were the first to green up. Trapping was done in these, but it was easy to trap out the areas, so every few years a party of men went into them when started seeing enough sign to make it profitable. You do hear alot about wintering in some of these parks- but I really don't find much to back that up in the journals. It was too easy to go alittle further south (like in south park's location ) and hit a "banana belt" just on the north side of the Arkansas. Our parks (not to mention mountains) are different than Wyoming's. The few horse trips I done up there, it seems they have alot of these areas. I don't know if you can compare them to the 25- 30 mile long parks in Colorado, but they are pretty!. What are your's like, Angela? mike. Angela Gottfred wrote: > Just curious; in Canada, the word 'parks' was used to mean the same thing > as 'buffalo pound'. Does this apply to these 'parks' too, or is it > completely unrelated? > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: furtrade boats Date: 16 Oct 2000 13:55:35 -0700 Well, I and one of my Brigade Brothers have made bateau's. I used more modern lumber materials, and Badger used more traditional lumber materials. His is beautiful and very heavy. Mine is nice and fairly light. How can I be of service? Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 1:16 PM > > I am looking for someone making a bateaux...can anyone out there help with > this? Thanks in advance! > Scott McMahon > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 16 Oct 2000 16:10:40 -0500 > > Try the aforementioned "The Frontier Rifleman" and the Book of Buckskinning" > series from Muzzle Loader Mag publisher Scurlock. > > Try this site. It's full of source material. http://www.liming.org/alra/alrasrc.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Twosenns@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #653 Date: 16 Oct 2000 17:35:32 EDT I have only been following the list for a short time and have found it very interesting. I enjoy the history lessons and the affectionate bantering. I am interested in learning beading and would like your input, tips and resourses. Thanks, Ann Mickadeit Lompoc, California ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: todd glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels Date: 16 Oct 2000 18:09:39 -0400 (EDT) Mike, Thanks. I still wander around looking lost occasionally. And I shall always remwember you and im as very kind and hospitable fellows and I hope our trails cross again soon. Todd ------Original Message------ Sent: October 16, 2000 5:13:17 AM GMT Todd, You pilgrim, you. I see you got your number. Congratuations! But, I'll still remember you as a lost pilgrim wondering in camp. Hope to see you again sometime. mike. Todd Glover wrote: > The first trilogy begins with "Carry the Wind" not "Dance on the Wind" > and continues with "Borderlords" and "One-Eyed Dream". THEN comes "Dance > on the Wind" followed by "Buffalo Palace" and "Crack in the Sky." The > Titus Bass stories continue in "Ride the Moon Down" and conclude (for > now) with "Death Rattle." > There are eight of them in all, and it's easy to get them confused. I > have thoroughly enjoyed them as recreational reading between between more > serious stuff. If you haven't read them yet, enjoy! Same goes for Allan > Eckerts' "Winning of America" series beginnijng with "The Frontiersman." > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > Poison River Party, #1784 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels Date: 16 Oct 2000 18:22:29 EDT Haven't talked to Terry lately, but he was on a schedule with his publisher to put one of the trilogy books out in hard back each fall (should be now for the final installment of 9 total fur trade books) and a paperback for his "plains" series each spring. Heard anything on the last book? Patrick J. Surrena Jim Baker Party, The American Mountain Men, #1449 Colorado ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: furtrade boats Date: 17 Oct 2000 03:48:19 GMT I'm looking for one(bateau) for a re-enactment group...they are interested in possibly purchasing one...anybody making these things for sale? Any estimates on cost? Thanks for any help! Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: furtrade boats Date: 16 Oct 2000 22:17:50 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 8:48 PM > > I'm looking for one(bateau) for a re-enactment group...they are interested > in possibly purchasing one...anybody making these things for sale? Any > estimates on cost? Thanks for any help! Well Scott, I don't know of anyone making them for sale. It took me about 3 months to make mine working a few hrs a day most days of the week. I have no idea how long it took Badger to make his. I probably took the easy route. With some advice it is not hard to make one or more. There are a couple books out that give the basics of construction. The originals were made in the field with a minimum of equipment. You have the advantage of modern lumber yards and easy to come by fasteners. A few fellas that can co-operate and stay out of eachothers hair could turn one out in a few weeks. I've given some though on makeing them if I saw some interest (haven't up to now) but I suspect I would want a couple thousand give or take to turn one out. The material is not that expensive but even using the methods I used it is somewhat labor intensive to build any wood boat. If you want to tackle it yourselves I would be happy to stear you in the right direction from my perspective. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: furtrade boats Date: 17 Oct 2000 06:30:22 EDT ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com> Subject: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: FindArticles - The Ecological Indian: Myth and History.(Review) Date: 17 Oct 2000 06:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Hello the list. Passed this on to a friend and this was his review. I didn't even open it. grn --- "Melvin D. Swift" wrote: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FindArticles - The > Ecological Indian: Myth and History.(Review) > Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:15:47 -0500 > > GEORGE: > THEY MISSED THE BOAT ON THE USE > OF BEAVER TO LINE FELT HATS. ACTUALLY > THE BEVER FUR WAS USED TO MAKE THE > FELT, THAT MADE THE HAT. SEVERAL > OTHER THINGS DO NOT ADD UP IN THE > ARTICLE. NOT IMPRESSED WITH THIS ONE!! > >> The Ecological Indian: Myth and History.(Review) > >> > >http://www.findarticles.com/m1511/9_20/55553393/p1/article.jhtml > >> > >> Interesting book on Indians and animal > populations. > >> FindArticles - "The Web's First Articles Archive" > >> http://www.findarticles.com/ ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Twosenns@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #653 Date: 17 Oct 2000 12:47:22 EDT I was watching the antiques road show last night and an artist was mentioned. Frederick Remington. I just picked up 3 prints of his at a swap meet. They look old, the frames are rustic and the backing is nailed in with old nails instead of staples. They have type written titles on the bottom of each. 1. An Arizona Cowboy. 2. A Sioux Chief. 3. A Calvery Officer. Any info on this artist and where to obtain an appraisel would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Ann Mickadeit Lompoc, CA ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve M <Boatkiller@pronet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #653 Date: 17 Oct 2000 17:03:28 -0700 Ann, try this web page www.allposters.com/gallery.asp?search=Frederick+Remington Hope this will help you . It has some of his paintings and posters. And Ann we are neighbors. Contact me off line of the list , and we can converse. Steve"boatkiller"McGehee ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: cart brigades organization Date: 17 Oct 2000 20:07:02 MDT ho Red Horse camp: sorry i missed your phone call. i went into the bull mt. and then a sweat lodge for a friend that lost a relative. left the 1803 at home. but saw plenty of speed goats and a few elk moving north. i think you will injoy this list ,you get a lot of views. here is a fast outline of the organization if you want to go deeper just give me a landline. after cars had their rendezoues for a buffalo hunt, there was an evening meeting. voting for the leaders of the brigade for that hunt. first we must remember the metis people.Ten Captains were chosen and one was chosen to be the chief of the hunt or govenor. one was also chosen as war chief,responsible for the peoples rights. each captain had ten les soldats Les soldats was a metis warrior responsible for conducting police action keeping watch and protecting the metis camp. then ten guides were appointed with the duty of guiding the brigade.the guide of the day would fly the metis flag from his cart. rising of the metis flag every morning would signal to prepare for the day of travel. lowering of the flag would signal the end of travel and preparation of setting up camp.at the lowering of flag the captain of the day took lead and his men were in charge of camp.the camp crier provided an important link of informaion to the metis people from the leaders. each brigade had their own set of rules. metis did not like rules. he few rule however were enforced instantly by the la loge de soldats. Ha Ha yes i do rember that tree. damn lucky it was soft wood(pine) or i and my horse would be dead. NO don,t tell these people any stores, they all think i am a saint straight from sunday school. keep the bucksinning faith red horse your ole friend pony rider hiverant metis preserve and research metis history bring metis and friends of may tee into traditions of the cart brigades _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 17 Oct 2000 21:05:26 -0600 Hi Angela, >Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> noted that he found no mention of Metis in >the indexes of numerous journals he consulted. > >Allen, I can't comment about what happened after 1820, but I know that in >the Canadian fur trade journals of the 1774-1821 period, it can be >devilishly hard to pin down who is and is not metis. The word metis was not >much used in English; the term half-breed was used far more often, but I agree that it is a quick and dirty way to find something. But I even found Mormons in various indexs, but no Metis. And in my memory of reading the journals I don't recall a single mention of Metis. My point was more that the Metis were NOT a factor in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade as Walt says. I still haven't found anything to change my opinion on that. Also, his assertion that Metis built Fort Hall is pure "crap". Notice how he sidesteps when others asked him to come up with proof. Oh well. It has inspired me to go back throught the journals and research what the RMFT American journals had to say about clothes. Take care and thanks for keeping us all informed, YMOS, Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels Date: 17 Oct 2000 22:57:03 -0600 Pat, my friend and companion- Don't know what to say about the next book, if there is one. At the end of "Death Rattle" (the latest from Terry), Titus in a old man with a family going back north the "used-to-be-country"; Josiah is going back to Toas with his family and back into the trading business. Terry leaves the book in a very sober tone. The fur trade is long past it's prime and people like Titus just doesn't know what to do with himself. Usually there is a teaser in the front or back to make you want the next book, but this one doesn't have one. It does make sense that another book should be made. That way it would round out the nine books (three sets of three), and of course finish off the two main characters- but, it seems to me, either he is having a hard time writing the last book, or it might be a while before the next. Guess we need to ask him the next time he is in town. mike. Mtnman1449@aol.com wrote: > Haven't talked to Terry lately, but he was on a schedule with his publisher > to put one of the trilogy books out in hard back each fall (should be now for > the final installment of 9 total fur trade books) and a paperback for his > "plains" series each spring. Heard anything on the last book? > > Patrick J. Surrena > Jim Baker Party, The American Mountain Men, #1449 > Colorado > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis Date: 17 Oct 2000 23:06:48 -0600 My point was more that the Metis were NOT a factor in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade as Walt says. I still haven't found anything to change my opinion on that. Allen Allen I beg to differ with you. Indeed the Metis as we know them in Montana were a strong factor in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade to the north. By north I mean by north of the North Platte all the way over to Council, Idaho. This includes all of Yellowstone Park and the surrounding environs. Taking in the head waters of Three Forks of the upper Missouri River. This northern group is way different from the central Rockies and different yet from the southern Rockies. Dress and the four way mix of cultures stemming in on this particular piece of geography. The big medicine wheel of Yellowstone Park. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 18 Oct 2000 08:33:02 -0700 Dear Allan, et.all,. There does seem to be more interest in this point than necessary. The Metis culture and the formation of the concept of a "New Nation" has been deeply rooted in Canadian history since Cuthbert Grant and the Battle of Seven Oaks before 1820. There was no "New Nation" movement in the U.S. side of the boarder. No royal charter, no promise of knighthood, none of that King and country stuff. Therefore, no 200 year-old absentee government to reject. The Americans took care of that early on. There was a mestizo culture to the South (Mix of Spanish/Indian)and it exits today in Mexico. There seems to have been an active "culture" of mixed bloods in Canada and those that venture somewhat south. When Minnesota was becoming a state, the Metis(half-breeds) petitioned for a reservation separate from the Dakotas who were their relatives. Apparently, they did consider themselves "something else" then Indians. These people were a active and often prominent force in early Minnesota history and politics. But were they a "force" in the Rocky Mountain trade? When McKenzie took over the Western division of the American Fur Company, he absorbed into his work force many of the employees from his former Columbia Fur. These men were borrowed, originally, from the Northwest Company that McKenzie was active in. A goodly number were voyagers. Were Metis among them? Most likely but how do you prove a man's origin from his last name? A French or Scotch last name does not prove Indian parentage. That "mixed blood" employees were active throughout the U.S. fur trade seems like an unarguable point. How active? Definitely active. A motivating force? No. Not like the usage of the Metis in a political struggle between the Northwest Company and Hudson Bay in Canada. What is a Metis? Was Jon Baptiste Charbonneau a Metis? This was "Pomp", the union between Toussaint and Sacagawea. He was raised and educated "white" by Clark to be a bridge between the two cultures. Rumor has it that he entered the fur trade but records on this man fall quickly into myth, documents being scarce. Yet, he was a major historical "Metis" that disappeared from our history and wasn't much of a "force" in the trade. So, what's the argument? Can we agree that mixed-bloods were active in the U.S. fur trade? I say "hell, yes". Did they drive the fur brigades of the Rocky Mountains and involve themselves politically in the Rocky Mountain as they did in Canada? No way. Were they among the construction labor that built posts and forts along the waterways of the Missouri? Probably. But documentation will be difficult. Did they build Fort Hall? I don't know. Does anyone? Can anyone? Does anyone care anymore? Next topic, please. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 10:06 PM > > > > My point was more that the Metis were NOT a factor in the Rocky Mountain Fur > Trade as Walt says. I still haven't found anything to change my opinion on > that. > > Allen > > > Allen I beg to differ with you. Indeed the Metis as we know them in > Montana were a strong factor in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade to the north. > By north I mean by north of the North Platte all the way over to Council, > Idaho. This includes all of Yellowstone Park and the surrounding environs. > Taking in the head waters of Three Forks of the upper Missouri River. This > northern group is way different from the central Rockies and different yet > from the southern Rockies. Dress and the four way mix of cultures stemming > in on this particular piece of geography. The big medicine wheel of > Yellowstone Park. > Walt > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels Date: 18 Oct 2000 12:30:40 EDT I thought originally he was going to have three sets of three. I'm not a home and didn't bother to count them, but are there now eight or nine books? If eight, I expect one more if he's still on the original plan. Maybe he's finished. I don't know. P. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis Date: 18 Oct 2000 12:34:36 -0600 Dear, et.all,. Was Jon Baptiste Charbonneau a Metis? This was "Pomp", the union between Toussaint and Sacagawea. He was raised and educated "white" by Clark to be a bridge between the two cultures. Rumor has it that he entered the fur trade but records on this man fall quickly into myth, documents being scarce. Yet, he was a major historical "Metis" that disappeared from our history and wasn't much of a "force" in the trade. Larry Huber Hi Larry, Not much activity on this history list. Which leaves room for this point about "Pomp" Born 1805. Raised and educated in Germany. Did not return to US until after the age of 30. Which would make it about 1835 or later. As you know this is almost the end of the fur trade era of 1825 - 1840. He was not born in time to be a part of the fur trade. I think in pure numbers the children of the fur trade were present and active on all fronts of the northern rocky mountain fur trade in the US to the extend that they were a large labor force and were counted on heavily because they proved to be reliable men. I also think that with the new interest in the Lewis and Clark expedition that more information about the children of the fur trade west of North Dakota and south of Canada will be emerging. And this could give us a better understand of their relationship and involvement in the northern rocky mountain fur trade. The drawings of Alfred Miller yield a lot of information about this culture. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels Date: 18 Oct 2000 16:40:05 -0600 Pat, The list in front of the latest book shows: carry the wind borderlords one-eyed dream dance on the wind buffalo palace crack in the sky ride the moon down death rattle mike. Mtnman1449@aol.com wrote: > I thought originally he was going to have three sets of three. I'm not a > home and didn't bother to count them, but are there now eight or nine books? > If eight, I expect one more if he's still on the original plan. Maybe he's > finished. I don't know. P. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis Date: 18 Oct 2000 16:58:12 -0600 Hello, My apologies to the list. I intended my last e-mail on this subject line to be private to Angela. I won't be replying to anything about it on the list, though I'd be happy to carry on the conversation privately. Again, sorry. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels Date: 18 Oct 2000 17:47:15 -0600 Fellow Terry C. Johnston fans, The Final chapter in the Titus Bass saga is due to be released next April. It's called "Wind Walker." I'm just afraid we may see the end of ole Scratch. I hope not. Kinda like to see him move on to Oreegon of California or somewhere and retire peacefully. "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party, #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 18 Oct 2000 20:42:00 -0700 The drawings of Alfred Miller yield a lot of information about this culture. Walt >>Walt, Explain something to sir. How do you figure the drawings of Miller yeild a lot of information about the culture of the Metis ? The men Miller depicted in his drawings had been in the mountains a year or more. They had been living with and trading with the Indians the Indians the whole time. Hell, they all looked the same except for the 'hands' who wrangled the pack strings from St. Louis, and most of them didn't look much different. I'm confused ! Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels Date: 18 Oct 2000 22:36:08 EDT hello the camp, Are all y'all familiar with Terry C. Johnston's web site? if not, here the tracks: http://www.imt.net/~tjohnston/ Enjoy... ZZZZZZZZz Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dave tonneman <davetowz@excite.com> Subject: MtMan-List: matchcoats Date: 18 Oct 2000 19:42:59 -0700 (PDT) I see references to matchcoats alot. Can anyone describe this to me? I gather that it ts simply a blanket, but that is all I can figure. Thanks, Dave Tonneman, Ohio territory. _______________________________________________________ Say Bye to Slow Internet! http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau Date: 18 Oct 2000 23:28:11 EDT In a message dated 10/18/00 11:35:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Wfoster@cw2.com writes: > He was not born in time to be a part of the fur trade. I fail to understand how you can make such a statement. Here's my source: According to Ann Hafen, in a ten book series titled "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West," Jean Baptiste Charbonneau returned from Europe to America and set out from St. Louis on 12-23-1829, along with some men from the American Fur Company, headed for the Upper Missouri. Hafen says "The next fifteen years of Baptiste's life were lived as a Mountain Man, threading the streams of the western wilderness in search of beaver skin." (Hafen, Vol. 1, page 212, "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West" Authur H Clark Co., Glendale, CA, 1965) Please provide a source to support your statemtn that Charbonneau was born too late to be a part of the fur trade. It seems that this and many of your other responses to this list are made without supporting documentation. If Ms. Hafen is wrong, I'd like to know why. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels Date: 18 Oct 2000 21:44:29 -0600 uhhhh like ya.....WSmith4100....I am familiar with the site...that's like uuuuhhhhh where I got the information.........=) "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party, #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 18 Oct 2000 23:00:51 -0600 Larry, While Jim beat me in answer this, I would like to add alittle myself. Pomp shows up in quite a few places, eating dinner with the missionary wives, hunting with various guys besides traveling in the west (like Stewart if I remember right). You can check with Dean Rudy's web site at http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtnman.html/names/names.html (names of people in fur trade) to check out my listing of where you can find references for him. If I remember right, he is found in about 11 books and written about on 40(+ or-) pages. There are various spellings of his name, like Chabonard (a half breed). It is true that you don't find him as a stand out in the fur trade, but like a lot of other men, played a important part. And the west would be a little empty with out him. What makes J. B. so left out when it comes to the fur trade is various books which portaryed him in Europe and world traveling. Thus, not spending much time in the west. But he did. And he packed alot in to his life. I only wish I could be like that. Does he fit the "Metis" profile? I guess in some ways yes, but I don't consider him one because of his lifestyle and places he lived. I don't think he lived much in the N.W. or was employed by any of the forts there. But, that is something I need to check on. mike. Walt Foster wrote: > Dear, et.all,. > Was Jon Baptiste Charbonneau a Metis? This was "Pomp", the union > between Toussaint and Sacagawea. He was raised and educated "white" by > Clark to be a bridge between the two cultures. Rumor has it that he entered > the fur trade but records on this man fall quickly into myth, documents > being scarce. Yet, he was a major historical "Metis" that disappeared from > our history and wasn't much of a "force" in the trade. > > Larry Huber > > Hi Larry, > > Not much activity on this history list. Which leaves room for this point > about "Pomp" Born 1805. Raised and educated in Germany. Did not return to > US until after the age of 30. Which would make it about 1835 or later. As > you know this is almost the end of the fur trade era of 1825 - 1840. He > was not born in time to be a part of the fur trade. > > I think in pure numbers the children of the fur trade were present and > active on all fronts of the northern rocky mountain fur trade in the US to > the extend that they were a large labor force and were counted on heavily > because they proved to be reliable men. > > I also think that with the new interest in the Lewis and Clark expedition > that more information about the children of the fur trade west of North > Dakota and south of Canada will be emerging. And this could give us a > better understand of their relationship and involvement in the northern > rocky mountain fur trade. > > The drawings of Alfred Miller yield a lot of information about this culture. > > Walt > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" <icurapossum_hunter2@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: A message to Grizz Date: 19 Oct 2000 01:18:12 -0400 I am posting this to the list Cuz Mindspring keeps bouncing this message I keep trying to send to you. And people wonder why I dumped Mindspring! You wote: > I would love to visit this Mountain Man store, could you please tell me where the town is located in South Carolina? Howdy Grizz! The store is The K Company they are located in Pelzer SC. They are open Tues-Saturday from 10-6 You can call 'em at 1-800-977-2788 or 1-864-947-2788. The best way to go from NC is to take I-85 South of Greenville to State Route 8. Go accross bridge and over US 25. Go through West Pelzer. Be very carefull. The speed limit is 35 and it is enforced! go accross State Route 20 at the Exxon station. Go past the Post Office on the right then The K Company is in the small strip mall on the left. They are next door to Columbo's Chicago Style Pizza. Email me afore you go and I will make sure the owner is there. She and her husband go to all the ronnys and Pow-Wows around. You will like Kay and her husband Coyote Bill. They are good people. If you want, We can try to meet each other there. I am easy to spot as I am the only one who wears a Possum skin hat with the face on! On many Saturdays, Good Heart,the Cheif of the SC Cherokee tribe is there along with Cowboy, Coyote, Q and myself and others. Watch yer topknot! Possum Learn how to live a plain and simple lifestyle! Go to http://www.egroups.com/group/PlainAndSimpleLifestyle and subscribe today! "No man can truly know Christ except he follow him in life" (Testimony of Anabaptist leader Hans Denk) Genesis 2:17 "Do not eat of the fruit of the technology that makes edible the inedible." (Translation by Ray Audette) Dein O Herr, ist das Reich allein, Und auch die Macht zu sammen, Wir loben dich in der gemein, Und danken deinem namen, Und bitten dich aus hersens grund, Wollst bey uns seyn zu dieser Stund, Durch Jesum Christum. Amen. ( Das 131. Lied - Ausbund) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: metis Date: 19 Oct 2000 13:04:38 GMT Larry, Plan on staying confused...... Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Dec. TRUE WEST-mountain man issue Date: 19 Oct 2000 16:22:25 EDT You might be interested in checking out the Dec. upcoming issue of TRUE WEST magazine, as that issue is more or less dedicated to mountain men and the fur trade. I hope you check out my article on William T. "Uncle Bill" Hamilton, but other high points include Paul Andrew Hutton's article on the Battle of King's Mtn. and RG Robertson's guide to western fur trade posts. And as a final piece of self-promotion, let me say that the the buck antelope I shot this month a few miles north of Bent's Old Fort is mighty good eating. I'm looking for references to antelope and antelope hunting amongst fur-trade primary docs. I'd appreciate any help in that department. Thanks, John R. Sweet Palmer Lake, CO ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels Date: 19 Oct 2000 19:09:50 EDT Hey Camp! Just an aside...a bunch of folks may actually try reading trhese Terry C. Johnston Novels and I, for one am glad to see one more of the Titus Bass series is due up. Still, when we talk about them let us not give away the plot. I am just in the last quarter of DEATH RATTLE and someone inadvertently gave away the ending. Takes a little punch out of the reading! Let us all be considerate of others who may enjoy the same books that have stoked our fires for learning more of the furtrade era! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels Date: 19 Oct 2000 05:39:10 -0700 Hi Folks, For those of you who enjoyed Johnston's Novels, I would recommend a couple of novels by W. Michael Gear- The Morning River & Coyote Summer. These are a series in the vein of scratch and Josiah; ie. A seasoned Mtn. Man grooming a Pilgrim for survival in the West. The year is 1825 and the story involves going upriver from St Louis. ISBN #s 0-812-55153-2 and 0-812-57115-0 . I'm having fun reading them (I'm half way through the second Novel). Just my opinion, but I recommend them as a good read. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels Date: 19 Oct 2000 22:56:17 -0600 I agree with Randy, those are good books and I promise not to tell the ending this time. Sorry, I figure that all of you are like me and read the books of Terry's when they first come out. So, alot of Titus and Josiah's stories are old hat by the time six months pass. I mean you have to keep up and have the current read a couple times before the new one comes out , right??? mike. Randal J Bublitz wrote: > Hi Folks, For those of you who enjoyed Johnston's Novels, I would > recommend a couple of novels by W. Michael Gear- The Morning River & > Coyote Summer. These are a series in the vein of scratch and Josiah; ie. > A seasoned Mtn. Man grooming a Pilgrim for survival in the West. The > year is 1825 and the story involves going upriver from St Louis. ISBN #s > 0-812-55153-2 and 0-812-57115-0 . I'm having fun reading them (I'm half > way through the second Novel). Just my opinion, but I recommend them as > a good read. hardtack > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Arms, Accutermants, etc History Fair this weekend Date: 20 Oct 2000 20:45:17 -0400 Just wondering if anyone from the list will be attending the Kalamazoo, MI History Fair this weekend. If anyone is interested check out the following link. This is one of the largest Antique Gun and Accuterment shows in the area and is well worth attending if you are able. The show is held at the Kalamazoo County Fair Grounds and there are 3 very large rooms filled with dealers from all around the country. If any of you are going to attend maybe we can get an palaver a bit. I'm 6'6" tall and weigh in at around 320. I'll be wearing a blue plaid great kilt with a maroon colored waistcoat and a blue tam with a white cocade and a pheasant feather. If you happen to spot such a critter stop him and say hello, it might just be me. If not whoever it is might just know who and where I might me. http://www.historyfair.com/ Til Another time, perhaps this weekend, Travel Well Manbear ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Arms, Accutermants, etc History Fair this weekend Date: 20 Oct 2000 21:33:02 EDT > Just wondering if anyone from the list will be attending the Kalamazoo, > MI History Fair this weekend. Will be there on Saturday. > If any of you are going to attend maybe we can get an palaver a bit. > I'm 6'6" tall and weigh in at around 320. I'll be wearing a blue plaid > great kilt with a maroon colored waistcoat and a blue tam with a white > cocade and a pheasant feather. So yer sayin' we should just keep an eye out for the Irish dandy. <G> Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Hall's Builder Date: 20 Oct 2000 22:48:36 -0400 (EDT) " ... Fort Hall, the log post built by Nathaniel Wyeth on the Snake River near the mouth of the Portneuf. The post had been finished in August 1834 ..." c.f. Trappers of the Far West [Hafen], p.246. also Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography [Thrapp], Vol.3, p.1604. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Arms, Accutermants, etc History Fair this Date: 21 Oct 2000 11:17:30 -0400 > > > > If any of you are going to attend maybe we can get an palaver a bit. > > I'm 6'6" tall and weigh in at around 320. I'll be wearing a blue plaid > > great kilt with a maroon colored waistcoat and a blue tam with a white > > cocade and a pheasant feather. > > So yer sayin' we should just keep an eye out for the Irish dandy. <G> > > Dave Kanger > More of a Fancy Highlander I hope...G ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" <dullhawk@texomaonline.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Navy Blue Blankets Date: 21 Oct 2000 20:25:49 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C03B9D.19F70FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone on the list have any references for navy or dark blue = blankets or trade wool? I can't seem to find any references myself. = Thanks in advance. "Watchum Possum" ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C03B9D.19F70FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Does anyone on the list = have any=20 references for navy or dark blue blankets or trade wool? I can't seem to = find=20 any references myself. Thanks in advance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Watchum=20 Possum"</DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C03B9D.19F70FE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous Date: 21 Oct 2000 23:14:30 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C03BB4.AA224AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Made it to the Shinin Times Rendezvous in North Georgia today, first = time in a year. Now I know how those trappers felt seeing ol friends = after a year of trapping. Sat around a few fires and talked and drank = good coffee. Threw the knives and hawks and learned a little bit more = about humility. Then shot the primitive archery course and seriously = got my butt whoooped. Hmmm. Guess you just can not be in the top three = all the time. Unfortunately I chose not to take the front loader as I = would have not made it for the competition. Maybe next time. I did learn a few things. First thing is I need to learn how to throw = my knife with my left hand. Throw offs can sometimes be tricky. = Learned that there is a difference between Rendezvouser's and Trekkers. = Trekkers kinda keep to themselves set up all together out of the way = where Rendezvouser's like to be in the middle of all the excitement. I = spent a pleasurable time at both camps. Got alot of good info that I = plan on using in the next few month. Can't wait to the next rendezvous. Maybe one day I may just make it to = Friendship. FVR ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C03BB4.AA224AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Made it to the Shinin Times Rendezvous = in North=20 Georgia today, first time in a year. Now I know how those trappers = felt=20 seeing ol friends after a year of trapping. Sat around a few fires = and=20 talked and drank good coffee. Threw the knives and hawks and = learned a=20 little bit more about humility. Then shot the primitive archery = course and=20 seriously got my butt whoooped. Hmmm. Guess you just can not = be in=20 the top three all the time. Unfortunately I chose not to take the = front=20 loader as I would have not made it for the competition. Maybe next = time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did learn a few things. First = thing is I=20 need to learn how to throw my knife with my left hand. Throw offs = can=20 sometimes be tricky. Learned that there is a difference between=20 Rendezvouser's and Trekkers. Trekkers kinda keep to themselves set = up all=20 together out of the way where Rendezvouser's like to be in the = middle=20 of all the excitement. I spent a pleasurable time at both=20 camps. Got alot of good info that I plan on using in the next few=20 month.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can't wait to the next = rendezvous. Maybe one=20 day I may just make it to Friendship.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FVR</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C03BB4.AA224AA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 22 Oct 2000 09:47:37 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C03C0D.1C8E40A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Attention Longhunters and other interested parties, Can anyone tell me the origin of the word "trek"? As in "taking a = trek", "Trekking", "keep on trekking" or "Star Trek"? Does it have any = historical origin to our period or is it a "made up" word? I have heard = it used in reference to the South African Boer War so it may be Dutch. = Was it used before then in our country in reference to the trips taking = by Longhunters and others in search of game, furs or just on a scout? I = know that many in the Longhunter camp are very much into documentation = and such so I can't see a non-period term used in context to what they = do. Just wonderin'. Larry Huber =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C03C0D.1C8E40A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Attention Longhunters and other = interested=20 parties,</DIV> <DIV> Can anyone tell me = the origin of=20 the word "trek"? As in "taking a trek", "Trekking", "keep on = trekking" or=20 "Star Trek"? Does it have any historical origin to our period or = is it a=20 "made up" word? I have heard it used in reference to the South = African=20 Boer War so it may be Dutch. Was it used before then in our country in = reference=20 to the trips taking by Longhunters and others in search of game, furs or = just on=20 a scout? I know that many in the Longhunter camp are very much = into=20 documentation and such so I can't see a non-period term used in context = to what=20 they do.</DIV> <DIV> Just = wonderin'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Larry = Huber</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C03C0D.1C8E40A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 22 Oct 2000 13:40:27 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C03C2D.A33DB8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Larry, Most now agree that it is not an 18th century term. It is believed to = have originated in South Africa in the early 19th century. That's why you now hear the more politically correct = refer to "going on a scout" instead of a "trek" when en-acting an 18th century event. Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C03C2D.A33DB8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Larry,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most now agree that it is not an 18th = century=20 term. It is believed to have originated in South Africa in the=20 early</DIV> <DIV>19th century. That's why you now = hear the=20 more politically correct refer to "going on a scout" = instead</DIV> <DIV>of a "trek" when en-acting an 18th = century=20 event.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dennis</DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C03C2D.A33DB8E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 22 Oct 2000 12:54:19 -0600 You answered the question Larry, ---- Begin Original Message ---- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Sent: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:42:00 -0700 The drawings of Alfred Miller yield a lot of information about this culture. Walt >>Walt, =A0Explain something to sir. =A0How do you figure the drawings of Miller yeild a lot of information about the culture of the Metis ? =A0The men Miller depicted in his drawings had been in the mountains a year or more. =A0They had been living with and trading with the Indians the Indians the whole time. Hell, they all looked the same except for the 'hands' who wrangled the pack strings from St. Louis, and most of them didn't look much different. =A0I'm confused ! Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htm l ---- End Original Message ---- Later, Daniel L. "Concho" Smith Research & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit the HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ______________________________________________ Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau Date: 22 Oct 2000 13:04:55 -0600 <TT>Jim, I just got that information together and went back to e-mail it and low and behold you beat me to it, Thanks. Concho. ---- Begin Original Message ---- From: Casapy123@aol.com Sent: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:28:11 EDT Charbonneau In a message dated 10/18/00 11:35:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Wfoster@cw2.com writes: > He =A0was not born in time to be a part of the fur trade. I fail to understand how you can make such a statement. =A0Here's my source: According to Ann Hafen, in a ten book series titled "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West," Jean Baptiste Charbonneau returned from Europe to America and set out from St. Louis on 12-23-1829, along with some men from the American Fur Company, headed for the Upper Missouri. =A0Hafen says "The next fifteen years of Baptiste's life were lived as a Mountain Man, threading the streams of the western wilderness in search of beaver skin." (Hafen, Vol. 1, page 212, "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West" Authur H Clark Co., Glendale, CA, 1965) Please provide a source to support your statemtn that Charbonneau was born too late to be a part of the fur trade. =A0It seems that this and many of your other responses to this list are made without supporting documentation. =A0If Ms. Hafen is wrong, I'd like to know why. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 ---- End Original Message ---- </TT> <TT> Later, Daniel L. "Concho" Smith Research & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT = "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers"= ;. ________________________________________HRD__ Visit the HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ______________________________________________ </TT> <TT>Sig= n up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 22 Oct 2000 13:12:33 -0600 > THIS IS A MESSAGE IN 'MIME' FORMAT. Your mail reader does not support MIME. > Please read the first section, which is plain text, and ignore the rest. --Interpart.Boundary.11.22.33.M2Y10114 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <TT>Larry, If you go through the hist_list archives you'll find that this was talked about in great length, finally Buck wrote to Rick Edwards, being editor of "On The Trail" and seemed to use the term alot, as did Baker and Curry in their writings. You'll find Rick's reply, that they (the three) knew it was historically correct but was old and used in text of British ventures in Africa. Hope that helps, check the archives. Concho. </TT> <TT> Later, Daniel L. "Concho" Smith Research & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit the HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ______________________________________________ </TT> <TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT> --Interpart.Boundary.11.22.33.M2Y10114 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="OriginalBody.htm" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OriginalBody.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: OriginalBody.htm PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9u YWwvL0VOIj4NCjxIVE1MPjxIRUFEPg0KPE1FVEEgY29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFy c2V0PWlzby04ODU5LTEiIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9Q29udGVudC1UeXBlPg0KPE1FVEEgY29udGVu dD0iTVNIVE1MIDUuMDAuMjYxNC4zNTAwIiBuYW1lPUdFTkVSQVRPUj4NCjxTVFlMRT48L1NU WUxFPg0KPC9IRUFEPg0KPEJPRFkgYmdDb2xvcj0jZmZmZmZmPg0KPERJVj48Rk9OVCBmYWNl PUFyaWFsIHNpemU9Mj5BdHRlbnRpb24gTG9uZ2h1bnRlcnMgYW5kIG90aGVyIGludGVyZXN0 ZWQgDQpwYXJ0aWVzLDwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT1BcmlhbCBzaXpl PTI+Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7IENhbiBhbnlvbmUgdGVsbCBtZSB0aGUgb3JpZ2luIG9m IA0KdGhlIHdvcmQgInRyZWsiPyZuYnNwOyBBcyBpbiAidGFraW5nIGEgdHJlayIsICJUcmVr a2luZyIsICJrZWVwIG9uIHRyZWtraW5nIiBvciANCiJTdGFyIFRyZWsiPyZuYnNwOyBEb2Vz IGl0IGhhdmUgYW55IGhpc3RvcmljYWwgb3JpZ2luIHRvIG91ciBwZXJpb2Qgb3IgaXMgaXQg YSANCiJtYWRlIHVwIiB3b3JkPyZuYnNwOyBJIGhhdmUgaGVhcmQgaXQgdXNlZCBpbiByZWZl cmVuY2UgdG8gdGhlIFNvdXRoIEFmcmljYW4gDQpCb2VyIFdhciBzbyBpdCBtYXkgYmUgRHV0 Y2guIFdhcyBpdCB1c2VkIGJlZm9yZSB0aGVuIGluIG91ciBjb3VudHJ5IGluIHJlZmVyZW5j ZSANCnRvIHRoZSB0cmlwcyB0YWtpbmcgYnkgTG9uZ2h1bnRlcnMgYW5kIG90aGVycyBpbiBz ZWFyY2ggb2YgZ2FtZSwgZnVycyBvciBqdXN0IG9uIA0KYSBzY291dD8mbmJzcDsgSSBrbm93 IHRoYXQgbWFueSBpbiB0aGUgTG9uZ2h1bnRlciBjYW1wIGFyZSB2ZXJ5IG11Y2ggaW50byAN CmRvY3VtZW50YXRpb24gYW5kIHN1Y2ggc28gSSBjYW4ndCBzZWUgYSBub24tcGVyaW9kIHRl cm0gdXNlZCBpbiBjb250ZXh0IHRvIHdoYXQgDQp0aGV5IGRvLjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj4NCjxE SVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT1BcmlhbCBzaXplPTI+Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7IEp1c3Qgd29u ZGVyaW4nLjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+Jm5ic3A7PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPjxGT05UIGZh Y2U9QXJpYWwgc2l6ZT0yPiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyBMYXJyeSBIdWJlcjwvRk9OVD48 L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+Jm5ic3A7PFNQQU4gaWQ9X18jQXRoI1NpZ25hdHVyZVBvc19fPjwvU1BB Tj4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0KDQo= --Interpart.Boundary.11.22.33.M2Y10114-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 22 Oct 2000 14:28:02 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C03C34.48D5A1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am confused by this reply. Did you mean that it was historically = correct or did you mistype the word correct intending to say incorrect? = The earliest usage I can find of the word per the Oxford English = Dictionary is from the mid-1800's as a Boer word. I have never, ever, = seen it used in documents, letters, or primary documentation prior to = that time frame. Without searching the archives, what was the substance = of Rick's reply? Thanks. Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Daniel L. Smith=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 2:12 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Larry, If you go through the hist_list archives you'll=20 find that this was talked about in great length,=20 finally Buck wrote to Rick Edwards, being editor=20 of "On The Trail" and seemed to use the term=20 alot, as did Baker and Curry in their writings.=20 You'll find Rick's reply, that they (the three)=20 knew it was historically correct but was old and=20 used in text of British ventures in Africa. Hope=20 that helps, check the archives. Concho. =20 =20 Later,=20 Daniel L. "Concho" Smith Research & Documentation for:=20 ______________________________________________=20 HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT=20 "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers".=20 ________________________________________HRD__=20 Visit the HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/=20 ______________________________________________=20 Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C03C34.48D5A1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>I am confused by this reply. Did you = mean that=20 it was historically correct or did you mistype the word correct = intending to say=20 incorrect? The earliest usage I can find of the word per the = Oxford=20 English Dictionary is from the mid-1800's as a Boer word. I have = never,=20 ever, seen it used in documents, letters, or primary documentation prior = to that=20 time frame. Without searching the archives, what was the substance = of=20 Rick's reply? Thanks. Paul</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black">From:=20 <A href=3D"mailto:dlsmith@about.com" title=3Ddlsmith@about.com>Daniel = L. Smith</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 = 2:12=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = trekking</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><TT>Larry, If you go through the hist_list = archives=20 you'll find that this was talked about in great length, = finally Buck=20 wrote to Rick Edwards, being editor of "On The Trail" and seemed = to use=20 the term alot, as did Baker and Curry in their writings. = You'll find=20 Rick's reply, that they (the three) knew it was historically = correct but=20 was old and used in text of British ventures in Africa. Hope = that=20 helps, check the=20 archives. Concho. </TT> <TT> Later, Daniel L. = "Concho"=20 Smith Research & Documentation for: =20 ______________________________________________ = =20 HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials = in the=20 manner of our forefathers". =20 ________________________________________HRD__ Visit the HRD = at:=20 http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ =20 ______________________________________________ </TT> <TT>Sign up = for a free=20 About Email account at http://About.com=20 </TT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C03C34.48D5A1E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" <conner1@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 22 Oct 2000 14:27:53 -0600 Pablo, The business getting to you already "I am confused", only kidding. What Concho has stated was pretty much as I remember what was said. We really didn't get a time frame or period as to what British documents, in fact Rick thought the word "jaunt' would have been more correct for the colonies in the New World. I'll try and get a chance to look at Dean's archives, don't recall if there was anything with dates. Oh, change my e-mail address, lost address book, etc. on other system. Buck. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am confused by this reply. Did you mean that it was historically correct or did you mistype the word correct intending to say incorrect? The earliest usage I can find of the word per the Oxford English Dictionary is from the mid-1800's as a Boer word. I have never, ever, seen it used in documents, letters, or primary documentation prior to that time frame. Without searching the archives, what was the substance of Rick's reply? Thanks. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel L. Smith To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 2:12 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Larry, If you go through the hist_list archives you'll find that this was talked about in great length, finally Buck wrote to Rick Edwards, being editor of "On The Trail" and seemed to use the term alot, as did Baker and Curry in their writings. You'll find Rick's reply, that they (the three) knew it was historically correct but was old and used in text of British ventures in Africa. Hope that helps, check the archives. Concho. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Visit HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 22 Oct 2000 17:57:07 -0400 --------------5F9FC02006908E8014D6FA61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following comes from the American Heritage Dictionary: trek (trk) intr.v. trekked, trekking, treks. 1. To make a slow or arduous journey. 2. To journey on foot, especially to hike through mountainous areas. Manbear Larry Huber wrote: > Attention Longhunters and other interested parties, Can anyone tell > me the origin of the word "trek"? As in "taking a trek", "Trekking", > "keep on trekking" or "Star Trek"? Does it have any historical origin > to our period or is it a "made up" word? I have heard it used in > reference to the South African Boer War so it may be Dutch. Was it > used before then in our country in reference to the trips taking by > Longhunters and others in search of game, furs or just on a scout? I > know that many in the Longhunter camp are very much into documentation > and such so I can't see a non-period term used in context to what they > do. Just wonderin'. Larry Huber --------------5F9FC02006908E8014D6FA61 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> The following comes from the American Heritage Dictionary: trek (trk) intr.v. trekked, trekking, treks. 1. To make a slow or arduous journey. 2. To journey on foot, especially to hike through mountainous areas. Manbear Larry Huber wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style> Attention Longhunters and other interested parties, Can anyone tell me the origin of the word "trek"? As in "taking a trek", "Trekking", "keep on trekking" or "Star Trek"? Does it have any historical origin to our period or is it a "made up" word? I have heard it used in reference to the South African Boer War so it may be Dutch. Was it used before then in our country in reference to the trips taking by Longhunters and others in search of game, furs or just on a scout? I know that many in the Longhunter camp are very much into documentation and such so I can't see a non-period term used in context to what they do. Just wonderin'. Larry Huber</blockquote> </body> </html> --------------5F9FC02006908E8014D6FA61-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 22 Oct 2000 17:30:57 -0500 The following comes from my Random House Websters. trek [](trek), v., trekked, trek=B7king, n. =96v.i. 1. to travel or migrate, esp. slowly or with difficulty. 2. South Africa. to travel by ox wagon. =96v.t. 3. South Africa. (of a draft animal) to draw (a vehicle or load). =96n. 4. a journey or trip, esp. one involving difficulty or hardship. 5. South Africa. a migration or expedition, as by ox wagon. 6. South Africa. a stage of a journey, esp. by ox wagon, between one=20 stopping place and the next. [1815=9625; < Afrik < D trek (n.), trekken (v.) to draw (a vehicle or load),= =20 migrate] At 05:57 PM 10/22/00 -0400, you wrote: >The following comes from the American Heritage Dictionary: > >trek (trk) intr.v. trekked, trekking, treks. >1. To make a slow or arduous journey. >2. To journey on foot, especially to hike through mountainous areas. > >Manbear > > >Larry Huber wrote: >>Attention Longhunters and other interested parties, Can anyone tell me= =20 >>the origin of the word "trek"? As in "taking a trek", "Trekking", "keep= =20 >>on trekking" or "Star Trek"? Does it have any historical origin to our=20 >>period or is it a "made up" word? I have heard it used in reference to=20 >>the South African Boer War so it may be Dutch. Was it used before then in= =20 >>our country in reference to the trips taking by Longhunters and others in= =20 >>search of game, furs or just on a scout? I know that many in the=20 >>Longhunter camp are very much into documentation and such so I can't see= =20 >>a non-period term used in context to what they do. Just=20 >>wonderin'. Larry Huber John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< <http://www.kramerize.com/> mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 22 Oct 2000 18:53:08 -0400 John, So this means that if we are on a "trek", we are more likely to run into a cape buffalo and Masai tribesmen than bull elk & Shawnee warriors???.<G> D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: rmt fur trade:metis Date: 22 Oct 2000 18:31:15 MDT well well now!! to say that the metis were not of rmf in montana is truely a lack of montana history. to asume that because montana and north dakota are not in canada history would not entwine.There are rows in history class and the back row is hard of hearing but there are more books printed than what you have read or own. From the north fur trade(border states to)we didn"t know how to speak mex or about the mex influance in everyday life. there seems to be a piece of the fur trade picture you refuse to acknowlage.i can not force you to gain any new knowledge if you are not welling to search in new places. my suggested ref. seem not to interest you or are not in your library scope. i will then revert back to general speaking. to say not any of your authors did not run accross metis. in the fur trade few knew how to write, with the metis not wishing to be seen by white fur people, In the big country of montana and north dakota the indian head whole villages for years(with more domestic eye's to see ) indian and fur trappers did record cree,red river metis and the carts witch i have given titles. i have all so listed North Dakota and montana museums were you can see proof of metis.there plenty of internet stuff you can see. there has been roughly thirty hiverrant metis settlements found in Alberta,saskatchewan and MONTANA(NOT IN CANADA). there are also alot of priest journals discribing travel with the metis cart hunters. setting in the back row and busy making small time wise cracks, i can see why you just hear what you want. bet that was not a montana history class your were in, F- even if you were cute. oh well i have question for the people with some fur trade know. ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo tongue Date: 22 Oct 2000 18:44:37 MDT Ho there camp, i have priest journal that ref. (4 carts of 2 merchances buying buffalo tongue and dipping them in molasses in reding for shipping back to the settlements) Does anyone have any thing on this. how was it cooked and how big was the buffalo tongue market. also when was baking powder first used in northern ter. going deeper into history ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: mex gourd saddle Date: 22 Oct 2000 18:51:06 MDT Ho horse people; at one time the fur trade historans said this might of been one of the first kind of saddles that came out of st. loue. i just sold mine to a german and would like to know the for sure on this. thanks ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re MtMan-List: Navy Blue Blankets Date: 22 Oct 2000 19:30:58 -0600 "Watchum Possum" <dullhawk@texomaonline.com> wrote: >Does anyone on the list have any references for navy or dark blue = >blankets or trade wool? Well, I've got lots of references to blue cloth and blue strouds from the Canadian fur trade, pre-1821, and even one from the Pacific Fur Co. in 1812. Nothing specifying 'navy blue' or 'dark blue', though; also, no blue blankets. I always tend to think 'indigo blue' when I see 'blue', since that seems to be the most common & cheapest blue dyestuff for this period. Hope this helps! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 22 Oct 2000 21:38:45 EDT Hey camp, I was lucky enuf this past weekend to come across a coon with a hank of buffler meat. I got me a true enuf buffler steak. Not bad for the eastern woodland. I wanna know if there is a great way of cooking up this steak as it will be a special treat. My desire is to build me a fire out on the trail beside the chattooga river and cook it up and chaw the fat with some other coons around the fire. Any hints on cooking up this buffler without ruirning this special treat. I wnat this feed to be a ture shinin' time. Preciate it!! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 22 Oct 2000 21:57:53 EDT >Any hints on cooking up this buffler without > ruirning this special treat. I wnat this feed to be a ture shinin' time. Meat's meat. Either you know how to cook meat or you don't. > My desire is to build me a fire out on the trail beside the chattooga river and cook it >up and chaw the fat with some other coons around the fire. Language's language. Same rules apply except trying to spice it up don't add much flavor when you use that TV lingo. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 22 Oct 2000 22:00:11 EDT In a message dated 10/22/00 6:39:32 PM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: << Any hints on cooking up this buffler without ruirning this special treat. I wnat this feed to be a ture shinin' time. >> HikingOnthru, Sometimes kinda hard to come up with buffler meat.... Out here in the NW, (Washington) we have a food store called Fred Myers (Freddies), and they have fresh buffalo in stock at the meat counter, about once every 3 months. I try to stock up whenever I see it, but it's rather spendy...more than beef. You didn't say what kinda cut ya had, but if it's steak, cook it just like beef and enjoy. If you have a roast, marinate it over night in your favorite blend, and then cook it slowly over a wood fire on a green stick or two.... Slice off a piece or two as the outside becomes done to yer liking..... great eating! Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Navy Blue Blankets, bending topic towards dye Date: 22 Oct 2000 23:20:51 -0400 Angela, Have you done any indigo dyeing? The reason I ask is that my efforts (although most assuredly ameteurish) resulted in shades which were substantially lighter than any reasonable definition of "navy" in spite of repeated soakings in freshened solutions. Like you, I've believe that indigo is correct for the time but was wondering if there's something else that might have produced a darker blue. Tom Angela Gottfred wrote: > "Watchum Possum" <dullhawk@texomaonline.com> wrote: > >Does anyone on the list have any references for navy or dark blue = > >blankets or trade wool? > > Well, I've got lots of references to blue cloth and blue strouds from the > Canadian fur trade, pre-1821, and even one from the Pacific Fur Co. in > 1812. Nothing specifying 'navy blue' or 'dark blue', though; also, no blue > blankets. I always tend to think 'indigo blue' when I see 'blue', since > that seems to be the most common & cheapest blue dyestuff for this period. > > Hope this helps! > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Magpie Date: 22 Oct 2000 21:59:07 -0600 Hallo the list: Last Friday about dusk I had the opportunity to meet a list member Magpie, who flew in. I drove over to pick up Mike King to come along and look over this bird.[bg] Mike is the son of the famous ML maker from the late 50s through the 60s and 70s. He grew up around this stuff. It took a bit to locate the Magpie and when we did we hit it right off. He knew right where I was talking about in terms of the northern most part of these Rocky Mountains where I spent some serious time up on horse back. I showed him my knife case [the one that my knife does not fall out of] and explained how I made it. He looked at my knife and said he had one by D. that was a bit longer. I spent the next few days getting in winter wood. This is the first opportunity to be back on this electronic smoke signal. It was great to meet someone on the list face to face. Thanks Magpie!! Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fort Hall's Builder Date: 22 Oct 2000 21:59:09 -0600 " ... Fort Hall, the log post built by Nathaniel Wyeth on the Snake River near the mouth of the Portneuf. The post had been finished in August 1834 ..." c.f. Trappers of the Far West [Hafen], p.246. also Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography [Thrapp], Vol.3, p.1604. Hi Jon, I notice the same reference source Hafen. Thanks for the post. Do you think Nathaniel Wyeth cut the logs himself? He was management. Management usually is given credit for what laborers build. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau/1676 Date: 22 Oct 2000 21:59:11 -0600 Jean Baptiste Charbonneau returned from Europe to America and set out from St. Louis on 12-23-1829, along with some men from the American Fur Company, headed for the Upper Missouri Hi Jim, I like your story better than I do mine. Setting out for the upper Missouri 2 days before Christmas seems a bit fool hardy for someone who grew up in Europe. While getting in the fire wood over the last several days I have been trying to remember the resource that I read on Pomp. I can remember the 3 different times and places attributed to his mothers death. But what stands out was that he was said to have been 30 when he returned. I also remember it said he was a clerk in California for 15 years and in trying to return to Montana died of mountain fever in the lower bitterroot in his late 50s. I think the source was the Montana Historical magazine that is published out of the Montana State Museum was where I read it. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis/Pendleton Date: 22 Oct 2000 21:59:13 -0600 >>Walt, Explain something to sir. How do you figure the drawings of Miller yeild a lot of information about the culture of the Metis ? The men Miller depicted in his drawings had been in the mountains a year or more. They had been living with and trading with the Indians the Indians the whole time. Hell, they all looked the same except for the 'hands' who wrangled the pack strings from St. Louis, and most of them didn't look much different. I'm confused ! Pendleton Hi Pendleton, It has been said that them old time mountain men could tell tribal/cultures by their moccasins tracks. I can tell the difference between some of the northern plains moccasins types by looking at them. Millers drawing are full of detail. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: rmt fur trade:metis/ponyrider Date: 23 Oct 2000 01:07:31 -0600 Ho the camp Ponyrider, I'm coming on in. Ponyrider, you and me are the only ones I know up on this list who are from the Billings area. I think I recognize Jim Hardee's name from a picture on one of them early Buckskinner books. If I remember right he was up on horseback riding in the water. Crossing a creek in south western Montana. The photo credit said he was from Billings. I tried to look him up back then without any luck. But he came through on your side Ponyrider with the documentation about Pomp being in the RMFT for 14 years according to Haffen. Great stuff! Helps to counter Allen in Fort Hall Country. I do not know what to tell them boys who cannot see the metis style moccasin in Miller's work. Maybe Magpie can help us here. He helped me once before with a Miller picture. The one I have mentioned is the one Titled Rocky Mountain Trapper. It shows a man standing with a trade gun. The details of the moccasins are enough to see the center seam. Ankle flap. And ankle wrap. Features of the metis style moccasin. You and I along with others looked at the same style of moccasins worn by Gary Johnson the famous beader who is in all the old books about this art. At the Archeology week presentations in Billings featuring a Lodge Grass presenter to talk about the Metis in Montana. There have been several others who have offered supportive material to the active thesis of metis in the Rocky Mountain fur trade. During American times from 1806 to 1840. The cut off date that is very old and very firm except on a sub regional basis where the fur trade still exists. The whole American stem and blossom starts with the Lewis and Clark Expedition and John Coulter remaining to trap with Dixon and Hancock. The come into flower of the Ashley's 100 men. And the thriving were accompanied from within by metis. That is why Pendleton and those guys are saying "they all look alike" in the Miller drawings of the next rendezvous event after they had left the 5 month long winter camp between the mouth of the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone River and Park City, Montana. It takes an educated minds eye sometimes to tell the difference in what we are looking at. A little while back on this list. They were saying Miller could not draw. His work was like a cartoon drawing. Lacked details. I also see the Whately pattern of northwest trade gun in the drawing titled Rocky Mountain Trapper. Maybe they think I ain't putting the wood on the fire properly. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana well well now!! to say that the metis were not of rmf in montana is truely a lack of montana history. to asume that because montana and north dakota are not in canada history would not entwine.There are rows in history class and the back row is hard of hearing but there are more books printed than what you have read or own. From the north fur trade(border states to)we didn"t know how to speak mex or about the mex influance in everyday life. there seems to be a piece of the fur trade picture you refuse to acknowlage.i can not force you to gain any new knowledge if you are not welling to search in new places. my suggested ref. seem not to interest you or are not in your library scope. i will then revert back to general speaking. to say not any of your authors did not run accross metis. in the fur trade few knew how to write, with the metis not wishing to be seen by white fur people, In the big country of montana and north dakota the indian head whole villages for years(with more domestic eye's to see ) indian and fur trappers did record cree,red river metis and the carts witch i have given titles. i have all so listed North Dakota and montana museums were you can see proof of metis.there plenty of internet stuff you can see. there has been roughly thirty hiverrant metis settlements found in Alberta,saskatchewan and MONTANA(NOT IN CANADA). there are also alot of priest journals discribing travel with the metis cart hunters. setting in the back row and busy making small time wise cracks, i can see why you just hear what you want. bet that was not a montana history class your were in, F- even if you were cute. oh well i have question for the people with some fur trade know. ponyrider ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rmt fur trade:metis/ponyrider Date: 23 Oct 2000 06:59:57 -0700 The details of the moccasins are enough to see the center seam. Ankle flap. And ankle wrap >>Walt, Are you trying to tell us, that a man's ancestry could be determined by this information ? I don't think so ! They were saying Miller could not draw. His work was like a cartoon drawing. Lacked details. >>Walt, You didn't hear that from me. There are tons of details in Miller's works. Maybe they think I ain't putting the wood on the fire properly. >>Walt, Let me loan you my flint and steel. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis/Pendleton Date: 23 Oct 2000 06:44:44 -0700 It has been said that them old time mountain men could tell tribal/cultures by their moccasins tracks. >> I do believe sir, you are the victim of too many 'B' movies. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis/Moc Date: 23 Oct 2000 07:54:29 -0400 The best way to tell what tribe a fella is a member of by his moc is when you are taking it off his cold, dead foot cause he doon need it no more.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 23 Oct 2000 08:05:41 -0600 -C Kent, I guess you need to decide if the hunk of meat you have is tough or maybe even tender. If tough, boil it. And keep the water you boil it in for soups, gravys and just to drink. It will have good flavor and be a good source of liquids later on. If it is any where close to regular meat in toughness, cook it like others have said. Most like their buffalo one shade different when cooked than regular beef. Buffalo tends to dry out when cooked too long, so if you like your beef medium rare (like myself), try alittle less on this. Buffalo can be hard and dry on the outside, under done and bloody on the inside if cut too thick. But, with alittle experience, it can be a great meal all by it's self. mike. p.s. Is your first name Clark? (Sorry, just humor on a dark, drizzly monday) HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Hey camp, > > I was lucky enuf this past weekend to come across a coon with a hank of > buffler meat. I got me a true enuf buffler steak. Not bad for the eastern > woodland. I wanna know if there is a great way of cooking up this steak as > it will be a special treat. My desire is to build me a fire out on the trail > beside the chattooga river and cook it up and chaw the fat with some other > coons around the fire. Any hints on cooking up this buffler without ruirning > this special treat. I wnat this feed to be a ture shinin' time. > > Preciate it!! > -C. Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 23 Oct 2000 08:02:13 -0500 Thanks for the information. Frankly, I thought that this subject was pretty much settled. Even Baker acknowledged that the use of the word trek was not "period correct" for the long-hunter era he writes about, and that he had used it simply because it conveyed the sense what he was attempting to impart. Trek is a Boer word and I accept the Oxford English Dictionary when it comes to first usage of words in English. My nine volume set is still in storage, but when I looked up the word several years ago when this topic was on the table, if my memory is correct, it seems that it was first used in English in the 1830's or early '40's in South Africa. Further, as stated, it never appears in written form in any American work (or British) prior to that time-frame, and thereafter to other English/British writers as it became accepted in general usage. As to the use of the word jaunt, what Rick conveyed seems very much like what was discussed on multiple lists, also several years ago, in response to an AMM Brother's (from Arizona as I recall) complaint about the use of the word trek, and at that time most agreed that jaunt was acceptable, although I do not recall an instance of it being used in any document, journal, etc. in the New World during any of the time-frames we so enjoy recreating. Bless Mark for furnishing us with such a divisive topic. I will bet that this same debate will be carried on for years to come, by others, and after them by others still. Regards, Paul ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 3:27 PM > Pablo, > > The business getting to you already "I am > confused", only kidding. > > What Concho has stated was pretty much as I > remember what was said. We really didn't get a > time frame or period as to what British > documents, in fact Rick thought the word "jaunt' > would have been more correct for the colonies in > the New World. I'll try and get a chance to look > at Dean's archives, don't recall if there was > anything with dates. > > Oh, change my e-mail address, lost address book, > etc. on other system. > > Buck. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I am confused by this reply. Did you mean that > it was historically correct or did you mistype > the word correct intending to say incorrect? The > earliest usage I can find of the word per the > Oxford English Dictionary is from the mid-1800's > as a Boer word. I have never, ever, seen it used > in documents, letters, or primary documentation > prior to that time frame. > Without searching the archives, what was the > substance of Rick's reply? Thanks. Paul > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Daniel L. Smith > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 2:12 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking > > Larry, > > If you go through the hist_list archives > you'll find that this was talked about in great > length, finally Buck wrote to Rick Edwards, being > editor of "On The Trail" and seemed to use the > term alot, as did Baker and Curry in their > writings. > You'll find Rick's reply, that they (the > three) knew it was historically correct but was > old and used in text of British ventures in > Africa. Hope that helps, check the archives. > > Concho. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Later, > > Barry "Buck" Conner > Resource & Documentation for: > ______________________________________________ > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". > ________________________________________HRD__ > > Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ > Visit HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ > Aux Aliments de Pays! > ______________________________________________ > Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Mocs/Nationality. Date: 23 Oct 2000 13:40:47 GMT In 1834 Wyeth's expedition to the Rockies included such members as J. Townsend, and Osborne Russel(one of Ft. Hall's builders,) they both made a written description of their travels. Townsend says they stopped and traded with the "Kaw" indians they "...bought corn, moccasins, and leggings in abundance." Now if we use the the theory that a persons ancestry could be judged by their mocs, then everyone in the Wyeth party would now be Kaw indians!! I'm quite sure that Wyeth, Russel, Townsend, and others had no Native American ancestry, much less that of the Kaw. The Miller painting given as an example, entitled "Rocky Mountain Trapper," is usually entitled as "Bill Burrows(sp): Rocky Mountain Trapper." I have not seen a biography of this man, but would be interested in it if someone else has. The blanket coat he wears has pockets, and was a tailored garment, he also wears a felt hat, these things could tell a different story of Mr. Burrows ancestry. Is he Metis?? It's possible, but it's just as likely he is American or otherwise. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo tongue Date: 23 Oct 2000 08:13:36 -0600 Terrance, "Old Sturbridge Cookbook" Beef Tongue and Buffalo Tongue were cured and smoked for use like ham or roast beef. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo tongue >Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000, 6:44 PM > > Ho there camp, >i have priest journal that ref. (4 carts of 2 merchances buying buffalo >tongue and dipping them in molasses in reding for shipping back to the >settlements) Does anyone have any thing on this. how was it cooked and how >big was the buffalo tongue market. also when was baking powder first used in >northern ter. > going deeper into history > ponyrider >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 23 Oct 2000 08:32:42 -0600 <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><blockquote><blockquote><TT>Pablo, I say old man, let's take a "jaunt" and move on. Concho. ---- Begin Original Message ---- From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> Sent: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:02:13 -0500 Thanks for the information. Frankly, I thought that this subject was pretty much settled. Even Baker acknowledged that the use of the word trek was not "period correct" for the long-hunter era he writes about, and that he had used it simply because it conveyed the sense what he was attempting to impart. Trek is a Boer word and I accept the Oxford English Dictionary when it comes to first usage of words in English. My nine volume set is still in storage, but when I looked up the word several years ago when this topic was on the table, if my memory is correct, it seems that it was first used in English in the 1830's or early '40's in South Africa. Further, as stated, it never appears in written form in any American work (or British) prior to that time-frame, and thereafter to other English/British writers as it became accepted in general usage. As to the use of the word jaunt, what Rick conveyed seems very much like what was discussed on multiple lists, also several years ago, in response to an AMM Brother's (from Arizona as I recall) complaint about the use of the word trek, and at that time most agreed that jaunt was acceptable, although I do not recall an instance of it being used in any document, journal, etc. in the New World during any of the time-frames we so enjoy recreating. Bless Mark for furnishing us with such a divisive topic. I will bet that this same debate will be carried on for years to come, by others, and after them by others still. Regards, Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Conner <conner1@about.com> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 3:27 PM > Pablo, > > The business getting to you already "I am > confused", only kidding. > > What Concho has stated was pretty much as I > remember what was said. We really didn't get a > time frame or period as to what British > documents, in fact Rick thought the word "jaunt' > would have been more correct for the colonies in > the New World. I'll try and get a chance to look > at Dean's archives, don't recall if there was > anything with dates. > > Oh, change my e-mail address, lost address book, > etc. on other system. > > Buck. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I am confused by this reply. Did you mean that > it was historically correct or did you mistype > the word correct intending to say incorrect? The > earliest usage I can find of the word per the > Oxford English Dictionary is from the mid-1800's > as a Boer word. I have never, ever, seen it used > in documents, letters, or primary documentation > prior to that time frame. > Without searching the archives, what was the > substance of Rick's reply? Thanks. Paul > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Daniel L. Smith > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 2:12 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking > > Larry, > > If you go through the hist_list archives > you'll find that this was talked about in great > length, finally Buck wrote to Rick Edwards, being > editor of "On The Trail" and seemed to use the > term alot, as did Baker and Curry in their > writings. > You'll find Rick's reply, that they (the > three) knew it was historically correct but was > old and used in text of British ventures in > Africa. Hope that helps, check the archives. > > Concho. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- End Original Message ---- </TT> <TT> Later, Daniel L. "Concho" Smith Research & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit the HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ______________________________________________ </TT> <TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></body></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 23 Oct 2000 10:25:01 -0500 D Youbetcha! Watch out for Simba. I would suggest: PEREGRINATE per=B7e=B7gri=B7nate [](per=C6i gr=C3 n!t=C5), v., -nat=B7ed, -nat=B7ing. =96v.i. 1. to travel or journey, esp. to walk on foot. =96v.t. 2. to travel or walk over; traverse. [1585=9695; < L peregr#n!tus, ptp. of peregr#n!r# to travel abroad. See=20 PEREGRINE, -ATE1] =97per=C6e=B7gri=B7na=C5tor, n. It is terminology correct to the period as is jaunt, tour, roam, rove,=20 excursion, & journey; it's more the style of the language of the period. Besides: Transmountaine Pereginations sounds way cooler than a walk around= =20 the mountain. We can be Great Historical Peregrinators, most folks will giggle and think= =20 we're talking dirty. John... At 06:53 PM 10/22/00 -0400, you wrote: >John, > So this means that if we are on a "trek", we are more likely to run into= a >cape buffalo and Masai tribesmen than bull elk & Shawnee warriors???.<G> >D > >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< <http://www.kramerize.com/> mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 23 Oct 2000 11:32:59 EDT > We can be Great Historical Peregrinators, most folks will giggle and think > we're talking dirty. John, They would probably think that we were into falconry and start to go on about how we are abusing protected species. Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> Subject: Re: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 23 Oct 2000 10:28:57 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C03CDC.0D06E040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable O.K. you persuasive Devil. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Daniel L. Smith=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 9:32 AM Subject: Re: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Pablo, I say old man, let's take a "jaunt" and move on. Concho. ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C03CDC.0D06E040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META=20 content=3D"commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web = based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, = advertising banners, e-mail, free software"=20 name=3Dkeywords> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>O.K. you persuasive = Devil.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black">From:=20 <A href=3D"mailto:dlsmith@about.com" title=3Ddlsmith@about.com>Daniel = L. Smith</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 = 9:32=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: Re: Re: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 trekking</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=3Dleft> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><TT>Pablo, I say old man, let's take a "jaunt" = and move=20 = on. Concho. </TT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCK= QUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C03CDC.0D06E040-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 23 Oct 2000 09:41:37 -0600 <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><blockquote><blockquote><TT>C.(clark)Kent, "Sorry - Mike started it", just wanted to add that what Mr. Moore has stated is on the money, have done all the wrong stuff, as well as the right after years of eating burned and raw meat. Have never met Mike or if so would have been at the Rocky Mountain Colleges. Buck tells me that Mike is an excellent cook, as well as very talented at writing, an AMM member that really tries to do things per the period. Whether you know it on not, Buck has spoken very highly of your efforts Mike, he figures you at the top of the new breed in the AMM. Concho. ---- Begin Original Message ---- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Sent: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:05:41 -0600 -C Kent, I guess you need to decide if the hunk of meat you have is tough or maybe even tender. If tough, boil it. And keep the water you boil it in for soups, gravys and just to drink. It will have good flavor and be a good source of liquids later on. If it is any where close to regular meat in toughness, cook it like others have said. Most like their buffalo one shade different when cooked than regular beef. Buffalo tends to dry out when cooked too long, so if you like your beef medium rare (like myself), try alittle less on this. Buffalo can be hard and dry on the outside, under done and bloody on the inside if cut too thick. But, with alittle experience, it can be a great meal all by it's self. mike. p.s. Is your first name Clark? (Sorry, just humor on a dark, drizzly monday) HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Hey camp, > > I was lucky enuf this past weekend to come across a coon with a hank of > buffler meat. I got me a true enuf buffler steak. Not bad for the eastern > woodland. I wanna know if there is a great way of cooking up this steak as > it will be a special treat. My desire is to build me a fire out on the trail > beside the chattooga river and cook it up and chaw the fat with some other > coons around the fire. Any hints on cooking up this buffler without ruirning > this special treat. I wnat this feed to be a ture shinin' time. > > Preciate it!! > -C. Kent ---- End Original Message ---- </TT> <TT> Later, Daniel L. "Concho" Smith Research & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit the HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ______________________________________________ </TT> <TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></body></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Pendleton Date: 23 Oct 2000 09:54:41 -0600 It has been said that them old time mountain men could tell tribal/cultures by their moccasins tracks. >> I do believe sir, you are the victim of too many 'B' movies. Pendleton Top of the morning to you: Maybe you could tell me which ones have been getting to me....gasp!!! VBG. Ponyrider is right about the Metis in Montana. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 23 Oct 2000 09:48:34 -0700 , & journey; it's more the style of the language of the period. Besides: Transmountaine Pereginations sounds way cooler than a walk around the mountain. We can be Great Historical Peregrinators, most folks will giggle and think we're talking dirty. John... John, It has a certain panache and I like it but will it catch on? <G> Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Bossloper experiences Date: 23 Oct 2000 10:55:36 -0700 (PDT) I wonder about propective members' experiences and costs in attaining full membership in the AMM Society. I've met two buckskinners who says they shied away because, in their cases, traveling expenses were family budget busters. If they HAD the money to spare, they would dedicate themselves to attaining full membership. Are they just blowing smoke up their cuzunkuses? Can traveling expenses be the biggest item next to gathering authentic and authenicated gear? Other wannabes do cite the costs, monetary and physical (labor intensive), as just a little too much. I'm not set for life and neither am I beholden to anyone nowadays but my biggest obstacle remains participation in juried camps and rendezvous of which traveling is the biggest expenses in time and/or money. Would appreciate any insights or feedback (bitching acceptable) from the AMM members. Thanks. Turns out I know three AMM members in Kansas and did not realize it. ===== deafstones As I was walking up the stair I met a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. I wish, I wish he'd stay away. Hughes Mearns __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Navy Blue Blankets, bending topic towards dye Date: 23 Oct 2000 12:57:50 -0600 > Have you done any indigo dyeing? Nope; I don't fancy saving enough urine to make an indigo vat! > The reason I ask is that my efforts (although most assuredly > ameteurish) resulted in shades which were substantially lighter > than any reasonable definition of "navy" in spite of repeated > soakings in freshened solutions. I have several modern Japanese items that were indigo-dyed, and they are a very deep blue color, almost navy. However, I don't know for certain if they were dyed using natural indigo. If you want the real scoop, there are ladies on the 18cWoman list who are experienced indigo dyers, and I'd be happy to ask them exactly what color they get. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: trekking Date: 23 Oct 2000 14:10:31 -0500 John is right.....here are consecutive entries in Noah Webster's 1828 = dictionary. =20 Lanney PER'EGRINATE, v.i. [L.peregrinor, from peregrinus, a traveler or = stranger; peragro, to wander; per and ager.] To travel from place to place or from one country to another; to live in = a foreign country. PEREGRINA'TION, n. A traveling from one country to another; a = wandering; abode in foreign countries. PER'EGRINATOR, n. A traveler into foreign countries. ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 10:25 AM D Youbetcha! Watch out for Simba. I would suggest: PEREGRINATE per=B7e=B7gri=B7nate [](per=C6i gr=C3 n!t=C5), v., -nat=B7ed, = -nat=B7ing. -v.i. 1. to travel or journey, esp. to walk on foot. -v.t. 2. to travel or walk over; traverse. [1585-95; < L peregr#n!tus, ptp. of peregr#n!r# to travel abroad. See=20 PEREGRINE, -ATE1] -per=C6e=B7gri=B7na=C5tor, n. It is terminology correct to the period as is jaunt, tour, roam, rove,=20 excursion, & journey; it's more the style of the language of the period. Besides: Transmountaine Pereginations sounds way cooler than a walk = around=20 the mountain. We can be Great Historical Peregrinators, most folks will giggle and = think=20 we're talking dirty. John... At 06:53 PM 10/22/00 -0400, you wrote: >John, > So this means that if we are on a "trek", we are more likely to run = into a >cape buffalo and Masai tribesmen than bull elk & Shawnee = warriors???.<G> >D > >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=20 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >>>As good as old!<<< <http://www.kramerize.com/> mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Navy Blue Blankets, bending topic towards dye Date: 23 Oct 2000 15:07:32 -0400 Gwen (my Wife) has a skirt that was dyed indigo by a dyer at the Faire a few seasons ago... Started almost navy and now is a "washed blue/purple" It was a fairly complicated process of mordanting they put it thru, if I remember right. But the results were/are nice. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper experiences Date: 23 Oct 2000 15:40:33 -0600 Mr. Jones, Depending on where they live, travel expenses might add up, but that should only be if they travel to the nationals or the territorials. Most states have parties which conduct camps every year in or near where they are. Now, I may want to do a canoe trip or horse ride which might last 5 - 10 days in another part of the country, but most AMM camps are not that expensive to go to. Different people have different reasons for belonging to or not joining the AMM. Guess I never heard of money being one of them. Members as they do go through the ranks are required to stay at Nationals for a full week, some time in their life, but you can choose when to do that. mike. S Jones wrote: > I wonder about propective members' experiences > and costs in attaining full membership in the AMM > Society. I've met two buckskinners who says they > shied away because, in their cases, traveling > expenses were family budget busters. If they HAD > the money to spare, they would dedicate > themselves to attaining full membership. Are they > just blowing smoke up their cuzunkuses? Can > traveling expenses be the biggest item next to > gathering authentic and authenicated gear? Other > wannabes do cite the costs, monetary and physical > (labor intensive), as just a little too much. I'm > not set for life and neither am I beholden to > anyone nowadays but my biggest obstacle remains > participation in juried camps and rendezvous of > which traveling is the biggest expenses in time > and/or money. > > Would appreciate any insights or feedback > (bitching acceptable) from the AMM members. > Thanks. Turns out I know three AMM members in > Kansas and did not realize it. > > ===== > deafstones > As I was walking up the stair > I met a man who wasn't there. > He wasn't there again today. > I wish, I wish he'd stay away. > Hughes Mearns > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper experiences Date: 23 Oct 2000 16:09:06 -0500 S Jones, I wouldn't give too much credence to what someone who isn't a member has=20 too say. Excuses are easy to come by. You still have some deep misconceptions about what AMM is. I explained i= t=20 as best I could last July. Who is it you think you know in Kansas? ANSWER off LIST to preserve thei= r=20 privacy. John... At 10:55 AM 10/23/00 -0700, you wrote: >I wonder about propective members' experiences >and costs in attaining full membership in the AMM >Society. I've met two buckskinners who says they >shied away because, in their cases, traveling >expenses were family budget busters. If they HAD >the money to spare, they would dedicate >themselves to attaining full membership. Are they >just blowing smoke up their cuzunkuses? Can >traveling expenses be the biggest item next to >gathering authentic and authenicated gear? Other >wannabes do cite the costs, monetary and physical >(labor intensive), as just a little too much. I'm >not set for life and neither am I beholden to >anyone nowadays but my biggest obstacle remains >participation in juried camps and rendezvous of >which traveling is the biggest expenses in time >and/or money. > >Would appreciate any insights or feedback >(bitching acceptable) from the AMM members. >Thanks. Turns out I know three AMM members in >Kansas and did not realize it. > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >deafstones >As I was walking up the stair >I met a man who wasn't there. >He wasn't there again today. >I wish, I wish he'd stay away. >Hughes Mearns > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. >http://im.yahoo.com/ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< <http://www.kramerize.com/> mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper experiences Date: 23 Oct 2000 11:21:44 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 10:55 AM > I wonder about prospective members' experiences > and costs in attaining full membership in the AMM > Society. I've met two buckskinners who says they > shied away because, in their cases, traveling > expenses were family budget busters. If they HAD > the money to spare, they would dedicate > themselves to attaining full membership. I think they are blowing smoke. I see no reason why it has to be expensive. Fellas travel all over the place to go to shoots and other rendezvous. They spend lots of money on chrome tan and etc. trying to look like a "mountain man" and beyond a gun and other things that are hard to make from scratch materials you find in the woods, there is no great expense. Sounds like they are making excuses for not wanting to do something they perceive as "hard". But then again, nothing worth doing is ever usually easy. <G> Are they > just blowing smoke up their cuzunkuses? Can > traveling expenses be the biggest item next to > gathering authentic and authenticated gear? What traveling expenses? Driving out of town and walking off into the woods for a few days with some jerk and parched corn? Or without? And just living off the land? Sounds like a smoke screen to me. <G> Other > wannabes do cite the costs, monetary and physical > (labor intensive), as just a little too much. I guess if it sounds too hard perhaps the listener isn't cut out for it to start with. I'm > not set for life and neither am I beholden to > anyone nowadays but my biggest obstacle remains > participation in juried camps and rendezvous of > which traveling is the biggest expenses in time > and/or money. What is so expensive about doing it right the first time? That's why many of us advocate certain things to new folks right off the bat and why I don't understand why we get called on it for being "elitists". Perhaps that's why AMM, and other such groups, is not for everyone. Bring up too many perceived obstacles and maybe it's not for you. <G> If you want some more information contact me off list. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Navy Blue Blankets, bending topic towards dye Date: 23 Oct 2000 18:10:44 -0400 Real scoop would be appreciated, although the thought of accumulating a vat of urine is unappealing. If you can reference any experts (or their list) I'll be grateful. I'm working with small bricks of pressed natural indigo. Thanks! Tom Angela Gottfred wrote: > > Have you done any indigo dyeing? > Nope; I don't fancy saving enough urine to make an indigo vat! > > > The reason I ask is that my efforts (although most assuredly > > ameteurish) resulted in shades which were substantially lighter > > than any reasonable definition of "navy" in spite of repeated > > soakings in freshened solutions. > > I have several modern Japanese items that were indigo-dyed, and > they are a very deep blue color, almost navy. However, I don't > know for certain if they were dyed using natural indigo. > > If you want the real scoop, there are ladies on the 18cWoman > list who are experienced indigo dyers, and I'd be happy to > ask them exactly what color they get. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper experiences Date: 23 Oct 2000 15:14:14 -0700 (PDT) --- Roger Lahti <rtlahti@email.msn.com> wrote: > What is so expensive about doing it right the > first time? That's why many of > us advocate certain things to new folks right > off the bat and why I don't > understand why we get called on it for being > "elitists". Perhaps that's why > AMM, and other such groups, is not for > everyone. Bring up too many perceived > obstacles and maybe it's not for you. <G> > > If you want some more information contact me > off list. I remain.... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' Hello again, Captain Lahti, I was under the impression that attendance at the Nationals was mandatory and Lanny Ratcliff has written about 4100 mile roundtrip pilgrimages. Now I stand corrected that it's NOT mandatory but you sure wouldn't want to miss it anyway on account of the beautiful country. I live in central Kansas, just an hour's drive from where Keven and Debbie Hiebert live. Since they now have a baby, I might catch them at home once in a while. I may never become a Bossloper but it's still a great trail to follow! It's hard distilling the truth out of all this sour mash I been "hearing" but not to worry, I will find the trail. Thanks. PS Who's the clearinghouse for the Woods Walk Blanket prizes? I'm sure you got it figured out, right, maybe? heh-heh. ===== deafstones As I was walking up the stair I met a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. I wish, I wish he'd stay away. Hughes Mearns __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper experiences Date: 23 Oct 2000 17:28:12 -0500 Mike wrote: Members as they do go through the ranks are required to stay at = Nationals for a full week, some time in their life,=20 This isn't quite right. Requirement no. 4 is to stay one full week at = the National RDV or the Eastern RDV or at a Territoritial RDV (which = might be much closer to home than the Rocky Mountains where the National = RDV is always held). The requirement is one of fifteen from which a = member must complete ten for advancement beyond Pilgrim status, but no = weeklong stay is required at all unless one wishes to attain the highest = rank. I hope this helps clear up the matter Lanney Ratcliff AMM #1585 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper experiences Date: 23 Oct 2000 15:45:41 -0700 > Hello again, Captain Lahti, > > I was under the impression that attendance at the > Nationals was mandatory and Lanny Ratcliff has > written about 4100 mile roundtrip pilgrimages. > Now I stand corrected that it's NOT mandatory but > you sure wouldn't want to miss it anyway on > account of the beautiful country. deafstones, Well, you didn't exactly ask me but I'll tell you anyway. A prospective member only comes in via a personal invitation to join. Associate membership is not a path to anything but the magazine. Others have made that mistake. If you get invited, you have two years and no less than one to complete 10 of the first 15 "challenges" (to become a Bossloper) of the full 20 challenges that must be completed for the final degree of membership "Hivarano". That takes a full three years as Bossloper first. The list of challenges you choose from are not hard if you get out on the ground and do a few primitive skills. But to start off your required to have a complete kit made by your hand (excluding the things one would normally have bought or traded for such as your gun, saddle, blankets, etc. But if you can make it by hand such as your clothing and etc. your expected to show you are at least that self reliant. The other challenges include simple skills such as being able to start a fire with only materials found in nature, staying out 3 days, two nights under primitive conditions in each season of the year, cooking meat using nothing but your knife, etc. And on and on. Some you need help with, some you can do by yourself. You are expected to keep a journal to document when and where and with whom and how you did various things. Going to Nationals or Territorials is an option to choose from but not required for Bossloper. You can do all of this by your self in your woods behind the house if you do not live near other members. But that is unusual. > PS Who's the clearinghouse for the Woods Walk > Blanket prizes? I'm sure you got it figured out, > right, maybe? heh-heh. Harddog and TOF got the controls. I'm just another shooter waiting for everyone to finish. We'll find out at the end of the month who gets what. <G> Anything else I can help you will, let me know. Capt. Lahti ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: bossloper requirements Date: 23 Oct 2000 16:49:47 -0700 I was just recently made a pilgrim in the AMM. I do admit filling those requirements looks pretty ominous and I hope to fill all of them. Yes they are hard, and yes acquiring authentic equipment requires time [if you make it your self] and/or money if you have someone else do it. I have spent a lot of money on gas as well. In my humble opinion filling those requirements in or outside the AMM is the difference between looking like a mountain man and being a mountain man. and besides it can be a hell of a lot of fun, and isn't that the point. Thanks; Poision river party pilgrim, Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Building Fort Hall Date: 23 Oct 2000 17:04:38 -0600 Hello the List, Some facts on Fort Hall. From Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell, who was there and helped build the Fort. I left the spelling and punctuation as Russell wrote it. Pg. 1. "Our party consisted of forty men engaged in the service accompanied by Mess Nutall and Townsend botanists and Ornithologists with two attendants; likewise Rev's Jason and Daniel Lee Methodist Missionaries with four attendants on their way to establish a Mission in Oregon: which brot. our numbers (including six independent Trappers) to fifty Eight men." Pg. 5. "On the 4th of August the Fort was completed." "The next day Mr Wyeth departed for the mouth of the Columbia River will all the party excepting twelve men (myself included) who were stationed at the Fort. I now began to experience the difficulties attending a mountaineer we being all raw hands excepting the man who had charge of the Fort and a Mullattoe:..." Pg. 157, Notes: "The eleven men left with Russell to garrison Fort Hall were Robert Evans who was in charge: William Richmonds, Robert Cairnes, John Hynds, John Maxwell, Charles Schriver, John Timmer, Samuel Nott, John Ward, Thomas Callagan, and Peter Rost." Sooooo, out of the 40 employees of Wyeth we have 12 established. I'll attempt to find Wyeths journal to determine who the other 18 are. Note that the entire party was assembled in St. Louis and neither added, not lost men on the trip out. For those that are interested.... Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper experiences Date: 23 Oct 2000 06:03:17 -0700 Hello Mr Jones, I note that several have answered your question. I will add my opinion. Most 'Pilgrims' headed West from the settlements, in their settlement clothes. Fabric clothing is perfectly acceptable authentic clothing, and is affordable. As for the rest of one's outfit, minimal is the key. A tarp, blanket, tin pot to cook in, tin cup, strike a lite, and maybe a few 'luxuries' and you have your camp, again affordable. Wool blankets can be bought relatively cheaply on Ebay, thrift stores, estate auctions, etc.... If you choose to use leather (leggings, etc.....), raw hides can be obtained at local taxidermists cheaply or for free. My first brain tan experiences were done with free 'capes' from a taxidermist. These pieces were about as big as a bath towel, plenty for leggings. Cow brains purchased at the local market, cheaply. I assume if you play this game already, you have a shooter?.. doesn't have to be fancy... in fact, the 'plainer' that you and your gear are, the more authentic you will be (for most scenarios). As far as travel, if you are patient- and plan ahead, you won't have to wait more than a few years to find a 'National' event to do your 7 days at a National event (this could be an Eastern, a Western, or THE National). I have never driven to a National event alone. I always buddy up with someone, sharing the driving and expenses. I find that my vacations are cheapest if I go to a Doin's. No hotel, restaurant food, etc..... If you have any questions, feel free to contact me off list. I would be happy to offer advise on how to outfit yourself in an affordable fashion. Nothing is free, but no sense in spending your retirement money if you don't have too. When I entered the AMM I was on about as tight a budget as one could be on. Thankfully years of frugal living have allowed me to buy a few more expensive toys, but these are by no means required. Yours in the spirit of brotherhood, hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper experiences Date: 23 Oct 2000 18:41:25 -0600 >I may never become a Bossloper but it's still a >great trail to follow! It's hard distilling the >truth out of all this sour mash I been "hearing" >but not to worry, I will find the trail. Thanks. So true. MOST of us believe it's best to read the journals, determine what they did, and follow it as closely as possible. Learn by doing with what the original mountain men used. Keep at it and you will indeed find the trail! You'll find many of us still on that trail. YMOS, Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 23 Oct 2000 21:49:38 EDT Kanger, You ever cook buffler? More'n that...yo mama ever teach you any manners at all. IF you ever spent much time in the foothills around where I live you might know that most folks talk like I typed...DO NOT make the error of assuming folks are not as highly educated as you. (Some of us have post-graduate degrees and make out living teaching such individuals as yourself to get long well with them that are forced to live 'round them...or at least act so that everyone you meet don't neccesarily want to "tickle yore hump ribs".) In short, D. Kanger...if you cannot offer any good advice...pass the posting on up. Secondly, meat is not meat. I see your apparent knowledge in cooking parallels that of your "e-etiquette"! Otherwise, may the Great Maker keep watch over you and your'n. I remain yours humbly, -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: MtMan-List: cheap linen thread Date: 23 Oct 2000 21:12:42 -0500 Ho the list Some time ago there was a discussion about linen thread and about the = only thing that was agreed was that the stuff is extremely = pricy.........$75.00 for a pound spool in some cases. If you want to = beat that price click on cheaperthandirt.com and look for the "search by = catalog number" box then enter LEG-115. You will find for sale a large = spool (about 1 pound) of what they call linen thread for less than $6 = plus shipping. I bought a spool at the CTD store in FtWorth today and = by golly it looks like linen thread. The package says "spool of natural = twine" and I presume it is of foreign manufacture. It consists of 6 = twisted threads each about the size of ordinary sewing thread, making a = substantial thread (about the size of .5mm pencil lead) suitable for = nearly anything. It is a natural light tan color and is too strong for = me to break with my bare hands. It burns without smoke and leaves only = a wispy little ash.....no drips, etc. I bet it's linen, but they say = that their supplies are limited. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elkflea@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan list: sources of natural blue dye Date: 23 Oct 2000 22:46:36 EDT Indigo was the most common source of blue dye throughout the 18th and 19th century. Other dyestuffs were also utilized such as: Prussian blue, woad, and chemic. Woad was utilized in Europe before the Dutch imported the East Indian Indigo during the later part of the 16th century. According to the Smithsonian, woad (isatis tinctoria) was more than likely the first blue dye used in America, but then indigo became more common after 1700. Both required fermentation and both contained the ingrediant indigotin. Some amount of Woad, for dying, was grown on the eastern seaboard around Ct. but most was imported from Holland and France. Chemic is also known as Saxon Blue or Indigo sulfate it was a concoction of indigo powder being treated with sulferic acid but it had a short lifespan and would consequently fade more readily than regular indigo or woad. Its application was easier than the other two and I guess the simplicity is the reason for its utility. Prussian blue was another one of the earliest chemical dyes used in America. It was made by combining prussiate of potash with iron salt. The salt in this case acts like the mordant and the other the dye. Though not a professional, I have recipes for different color dyes if anybody is interested. The Best of Luck to Ya......flea ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper experiences Date: 23 Oct 2000 23:21:52 -0400 Just a few thoughts to add, First of all, my experience has been that this effort is very costly. Not so much in dollars, but in time. Making the time to search the wealth of information that is available, making the time to try a task in the way it would have been done by someone back then, making the time to get outside and live without the modern trappings, making the time (and risk?) to try something that may not turn out well the first go round, and taking the time to learn from other brothers, as everyone, from pilgrim to greybeard, has something to share. In a few years I have come a very long ways and I am just at the beginning of a long trail without an end point. Yes, I have spent my share of money on something, only to learn later that it wasn't exactly correct. I submit that many others will likely admit the same. I have attended any number of doin's where there is something chronologically (if not blatantly) incorrect but rather than being disturbed I just try to learn from the experience. Every time I cut a corner (yes there have been some), I lose out. Through these efforts and mistakes, I do not recall ever being judged, only kindly educated. Is all this worth it? Many would conclude that it is not. For a few, there is no doubt that it is worth every minute (or dollar) spent. This is one of those things where wealth cannot guarantee success and ultimately you are only measured by your own expectations. National events are great, but they are not the real destination. Tom S Jones wrote: > I wonder about propective members' experiences > and costs in attaining full membership in the AMM > Society. I've met two buckskinners who says they > shied away because, in their cases, traveling > expenses were family budget busters. If they HAD > the money to spare, they would dedicate > themselves to attaining full membership. Are they > just blowing smoke up their cuzunkuses? Can > traveling expenses be the biggest item next to > gathering authentic and authenicated gear? Other > wannabes do cite the costs, monetary and physical > (labor intensive), as just a little too much. I'm > not set for life and neither am I beholden to > anyone nowadays but my biggest obstacle remains > participation in juried camps and rendezvous of > which traveling is the biggest expenses in time > and/or money. > > Would appreciate any insights or feedback > (bitching acceptable) from the AMM members. > Thanks. Turns out I know three AMM members in > Kansas and did not realize it. > > ===== > deafstones > As I was walking up the stair > I met a man who wasn't there. > He wasn't there again today. > I wish, I wish he'd stay away. > Hughes Mearns > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Requirements, Poison River Date: 23 Oct 2000 23:31:06 -0400 (EDT) The AMM site lists 15 reqs. If I'm understanding this correctly (per Capt.L), to earn Bossloper (full membership) one must complete 10 reqs. in 1-2 years. To earn Hiveranno, one must complete 10 more reqs. (20 total) after being Bossloper for 3 years. Basic question is: what are the additional 5 AMM reqs. not listed on the web site? On another topic: Where exactly is Poison River located? Is (or was originally) the water really that horrible and bad tasting? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 23 Oct 2000 22:41:24 -0500 Lighten up Superman. You haven't got a clue about gentlemen and manners. I've lived all over this country including the deep South, no area speaks as rudely as you do to this list. Nobody, particularly somebody who is obviously green as grass, calls me a coon without angering me deeper than you can imagine. When you use such an inflammatory term considered derogatory in so many quarters it becomes obvious you don't know shit about teaching people to get along. You are probably tenured at some fine university. When you don't know people its foolish to try and sound like an "old hand" when you haven't a clue what those people are about. Sociologist perhaps? I thought Dave spoke rather gently to you. You should see the stuff I wrote that I deleted on your previous use of the term; giving you the benefit of the doubt. I shan't make that mistake again. Do not speak as though you rule this list. You are very new here. I am being very gentle with you. Yes I've cooked bison and lots of other critters. If you've got meat, and you've got fire, you've got food. When you have minimal gear you have minimal spices and "fixin's", you have limited options in preparation. If you do anything else you're exactly wrong. Most of us never let our schooling interfere with our education. John... At 09:49 PM 10/23/00 -0400, you wrote: >Kanger, > >You ever cook buffler? >More'n that...yo mama ever teach you any manners at all. IF you ever spent >much time in the foothills around where I live you might know that most folks >talk like I typed...DO NOT make the error of assuming folks are not as highly >educated as you. (Some of us have post-graduate degrees and make out living >teaching such individuals as yourself to get long well with them that are >forced to live 'round them...or at least act so that everyone you meet don't >neccesarily want to "tickle yore hump ribs".) In short, D. Kanger...if you >cannot offer any good advice...pass the posting on up. > >Secondly, meat is not meat. I see your apparent knowledge in cooking >parallels that of your "e-etiquette"! > >Otherwise, may the Great Maker keep watch over you and your'n. > >I remain yours humbly, > >-C. Kent > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence." Napoleon Bonaparte. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 24 Oct 2000 00:07:27 EDT > Nobody, particularly somebody who is obviously green as grass, calls me a > coon without angering me deeper than you can imagine. > When you use such an inflammatory term considered derogatory in so many > quarters it becomes obvious you don't know shit about teaching people to > get along. John, Thanks........your eloquence saves my carefully worded reply from being sent. Actually, I am beginning to see the humor in it. Received a reply offlist from another member: "Did you ever rattle a monkey's cage and have him throw monkey crap at you..." Hilarious, ain't it. It made my day. <G> This sure did turn in to a circus. > I thought Dave spoke rather gently to you. Never thought speaking the truth was in bad manners, especially when said in so few words. I guess I should have ignored him like everyone else. What does your Webster's say about the origins of the word "shun." Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 23 Oct 2000 23:11:05 -0500 Right on, Brother Kramer I have deleted everything that the Kryponite Kid has posted since he = came up with his "in you face" pysudonym when he was advised that few = people would respond to posts without a signature. In fact there is a = short list of others on this list whose posts I treat with the same = consideration. You could probably guess who they are. I have eaten bison meat broiled nearly black, grilled bloody rare, = boiled tender and entirely raw..... the folds (or leaves) in one of the = stomachs, eaten while I stood on the bank of the Big Hole River in = Montana within 20 feet of the steaming carcass of the buff (as well as = raw liver too, but I don't recommend that....tastes like a really chewy = bloodclot). What you said is true.....meat is meat.....if your head is = wired right you will take it as you get it. YF&B Lanney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 24 Oct 2000 00:13:21 EDT Hiking Kent: I could be wrong, but I have the feeling you are trying to impress. Many a man has failed to be accepted by this bunch of heatherns for making the same transgressions. Most of these men have been there, done that. Supper been a robin breast cooked in a tin cup or a bunch of grubs just to appease a growling belly. If you want to be accepted, just BE YOURSELF. Nothing less is good enough. There floats my stick. till trails cross Turtle #1199 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 23 Oct 2000 21:30:21 -0700 What > does your Webster's say about the origins of the word "shun." > > Dave Dave, I think my teacher would say that "shun" is a slightly stronger level of "measured indifference". <G> Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" <atthesea@gte.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau Date: 23 Oct 2000 21:31:31 -0700 Hello the list: Last summer in the local Coos Bay, Oregon, newspaper, there was an article regarding the grave of JBC. His grave is reportedly near Jordan Valley, Oregon, near the Idaho line in SE Oregon. As I recall the story, JBC was dumped (fell) into Owyhee River (west of Jordan Valley), caught a chill and died in Jordan Valley and is buried near the site. The state was going to fix up the area due the the L & C thing soon upcoming. There was other info in the article on his mom, where/when she died, where buried. Can't recall the details or the sources of the informaiton other than when the article came out, I did some map work to locate where Jordan Valley was. Just 'nuther bit to chew on. Beats Buffalo Steak... Regards from foggy Coos Bay Ghostrider ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cheap linen thread Date: 23 Oct 2000 22:34:45 -0700 I bought some of that thread. it is linen, very high quality to, I've been using it for months. damn good stuff Lanney YMOS, Tom ----- Original Message ----- Cc: "History List" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 7:12 PM > > Ho the list > Some time ago there was a discussion about linen thread and about the only thing that was agreed was that the stuff is extremely pricy.........$75.00 for a pound spool in some cases. If you want to beat that price click on cheaperthandirt.com and look for the "search by catalog number" box then enter LEG-115. You will find for sale a large spool (about 1 pound) of what they call linen thread for less than $6 plus shipping. I bought a spool at the CTD store in FtWorth today and by golly it looks like linen thread. The package says "spool of natural twine" and I presume it is of foreign manufacture. It consists of 6 twisted threads each about the size of ordinary sewing thread, making a substantial thread (about the size of .5mm pencil lead) suitable for nearly anything. It is a natural light tan color and is too strong for me to break with my bare hands. It burns without smoke and leaves only a wispy little ash.....no drips, etc. I bet it's linen, but they say that their supplies are limited. > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 24 Oct 2000 00:48:23 EDT > I think my teacher would say that "shun" is a slightly stronger level of > "measured indifference". <G> Rog, The former was the intent of my first posting. I should have resorted to the latter. You guys and your semantics. I used circus instead of zoo, cause Harddog would have jumped in and corrected me. Then Dennis would have chimed in and we would have ended up with a real conflagration causing us all to peregrinate for the hills. Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Cooking buffalo steak Date: 24 Oct 2000 00:05:16 -0500 Well Dave, there is a difference between using zoo to describe certain balckpowder events and using the word circus. A zoo is a place full of animals, while a circus has both animals and guys in funny outfits. Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Peregrinate Date: 24 Oct 2000 00:08:56 -0500 Peregrinate? I kind of like that word. Like learning the word of the day. I'm going to have fun trying to find opportunities to use it. Probably when I find the opportunity I will not remember how to spell the damn word. Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cheap linen thread Date: 23 Oct 2000 11:13:44 -0700 Lanney, Funny, I received a catalog form this outfit today! On your recommendation I ordered 3 rolls, I plan to live a looong time. Thanks for the tip. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cheap linen thread Date: 24 Oct 2000 01:20:57 EDT > Lanney, Funny, I received a catalog form this outfit today! > On your recommendation I ordered 3 rolls, I plan to live a looong time. I just checked their website. They have 360 rolls on hand. Be interesting to watch and see how the market is for linen thread these days. Maybe you can coax a commission out of them for unloading all their slow movers on all us slow movers. <G> Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau/1676 Date: 24 Oct 2000 02:33:47 EDT In a message dated 10/22/00 9:00:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Wfoster@cw2.com writes: > Hi Jim, I like your story better than I do mine. Setting out for the upper > Missouri 2 days before Christmas seems a bit fool hardy for someone who grew > up in Europe. While getting in the fire wood over the last several days I > have been trying to remember the resource that I read on Pomp. I can > remember the 3 different times and places attributed to his mothers death. > Walt, What I wrote is not a "story," but a quote directly from Ann Hafen, a far better historian than I. The best part of it is that I didn''t have to rely on remembering anything. I looked it up and quoted chapter and verse, straight from the book to the list. That is how I understand the concept of documentation. Unfortunately, too many folks on this list "remember" things that just ain't so once the book gets opened. If we could all add a reference to our comments instead of just spouting opinions, comments from failed memories, this list would be a lot more attractive to those with a genuine interest in documented history. In a message dated 10/23/00 12:08:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Wfoster@cw2.com writes: >I think I recognize Jim Hardee's name from a picture on >one of them early Buckskinner books. If I remember right he was up on >horseback riding in the water. Crossing a creek in south western Montana. >The photo credit said he was from Billings. I tried to look him up back >then without any luck. But he came through on your side Ponyrider with the >documentation about Pomp being in the RMFT for 14 years according to Haffen. >Great stuff! Helps to counter Allen in Fort Hall Country. I don't know who you saw in the picture in the early Buckskinner book but I can tell you, I do not have the honor of being that person. My address and contact information is below. As for countering Allen in Fort Hall Country, I can't make that jump. First, there is nothing in Hafen's article that puts Jean Baptiste Charbonneau at Fort Hall. Second, you haven't defined "Metis" sufficiently for me to agree that Jean Baptiste could be classified as such. Finally, I totally agree with Allen. Jim Hardee, AMM #1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Peregrinate Date: 24 Oct 2000 07:11:47 -0400 > Peregrinate? Gwen says if she hears that word one more time, She may peregrinate to a reader of the law.<G> D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Requirements, Poison River Date: 24 Oct 2000 08:32:23 -0400 "what are the additional 5 AMM reqs. not listed on the web site?" Jon, If we told you, we'd have to kill you...<BG> D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau Date: 24 Oct 2000 07:52:36 -0600 Sir, I have freinds that live there, I would like to know where he is burried exactly. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "atthesea" <atthesea@gte.net> >To: "Mountain Man List" <hist_text@xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau >Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000, 10:31 PM > >Hello the list: >Last summer in the local Coos Bay, Oregon, newspaper, there was an article >regarding the grave of JBC. His grave is reportedly near Jordan Valley, >Oregon, near the Idaho line in SE Oregon. As I recall the story, JBC was >dumped (fell) into Owyhee River (west of Jordan Valley), caught a chill and >died in Jordan Valley and is buried near the site. The state was going to >fix up the area due the the L & C thing soon upcoming. There was other info >in the article on his mom, where/when she died, where buried. Can't recall >the details or the sources of the informaiton other than when the article >came out, I did some map work to locate where Jordan Valley was. >Just 'nuther bit to chew on. Beats Buffalo Steak... >Regards from foggy Coos Bay >Ghostrider > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau/1676 Date: 24 Oct 2000 08:37:36 -0600 <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><blockquote><blockquote><TT>Amen Jim, Well put Jim, seems this gentleman does the side step at many questions. If you can't show good reference to the subject, then don't comment - you waste everyone's time, that goes for several on the list. Concho. ---- Begin Original Message ---- From: Casapy123@aol.com Charbonneau/1676 In a message dated 10/22/00 9:00:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Wfoster@cw2.com writes: > Hi Jim, I like your story better than I do mine. Setting out for the upper > Missouri 2 days before Christmas seems a bit fool hardy for someone who grew > up in Europe. While getting in the fire wood over the last several days I > have been trying to remember the resource that I read on Pomp. I can > remember the 3 different times and places attributed to his mothers death. > Walt, What I wrote is not a "story," but a quote directly from Ann Hafen, a far better historian than I. The best part of it is that I didn''t have to rely on remembering anything. I looked it up and quoted chapter and verse, straight from the book to the list. That is how I understand the concept of documentation. Unfortunately, too many folks on this list "remember" things that just ain't so once the book gets opened. If we could all add a reference to our comments instead of just spouting opinions, comments from failed memories, this list would be a lot more attractive to those with a genuine interest in documented history. In a message dated 10/23/00 12:08:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Wfoster@cw2.com writes: >I think I recognize Jim Hardee's name from a picture on >one of them early Buckskinner books. If I remember right he was up on >horseback riding in the water. Crossing a creek in south western Montana. >The photo credit said he was from Billings. I tried to look him up back >then without any luck. But he came through on your side Ponyrider with the >documentation about Pomp being in the RMFT for 14 years according to Haffen. >Great stuff! Helps to counter Allen in Fort Hall Country. I don't know who you saw in the picture in the early Buckskinner book but I can tell you, I do not have the honor of being that person. My address and contact information is below. As for countering Allen in Fort Hall Country, I can't make that jump. First, there is nothing in Hafen's article that puts Jean Baptiste Charbonneau at Fort Hall. Second, you haven't defined "Metis" sufficiently for me to agree that Jean Baptiste could be classified as such. Finally, I totally agree with Allen. Jim Hardee, AMM #1676 ---- End Original Message ---- </TT> <TT> Later, Daniel L. "Concho" Smith Research & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit the HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ______________________________________________ </TT> <TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></body></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" <atthesea@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau Date: 24 Oct 2000 07:53:54 -0700 Go to www.lcarchive.org/or_n0300.html and scroll way down. There is info on JBC being at Jordan Valley. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 6:52 AM > Sir, > I have freinds that live there, I would like to know where he is burried > exactly. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: "atthesea" <atthesea@gte.net> > >To: "Mountain Man List" <hist_text@xmission.com> > >Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau > >Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000, 10:31 PM > > > > >Hello the list: > >Last summer in the local Coos Bay, Oregon, newspaper, there was an article > >regarding the grave of JBC. His grave is reportedly near Jordan Valley, > >Oregon, near the Idaho line in SE Oregon. As I recall the story, JBC was > >dumped (fell) into Owyhee River (west of Jordan Valley), caught a chill and > >died in Jordan Valley and is buried near the site. The state was going to > >fix up the area due the the L & C thing soon upcoming. There was other info > >in the article on his mom, where/when she died, where buried. Can't recall > >the details or the sources of the informaiton other than when the article > >came out, I did some map work to locate where Jordan Valley was. > >Just 'nuther bit to chew on. Beats Buffalo Steak... > >Regards from foggy Coos Bay > >Ghostrider > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Requirements, Poison River Date: 24 Oct 2000 08:32:23 -0700 (PDT) --- Dennis Miles <deforge1@bright.net> wrote: > > "what are the additional 5 AMM reqs. not listed > on the web site?" > > Jon, > If we told you, we'd have to kill you...<BG> > D You don't have Pilgrim Shoots like one club I know of, do you? That is, line 'em up and shoot 'em? ===== deafstones As I was walking up the stair I met a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. I wish, I wish he'd stay away. Hughes Mearns __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> Subject: MtMan-List: Knife query redux Date: 07 Jan 2000 17:13:32 -0600 Friends, The knife query never got answered. The thread went off on another tangent before folks could respond. I'm posting the original query again just in case anyone never saw it. Thanks, HBC A student of mine showed me a photo of a knife with a antler handle. The blade has an interesting marking near the base. There is a "V" and an "R" with a crown in between, indicating that it was possibly made in the time of Victoria. The manufacturer's name, Thornhill(?), is also stamped into the base of the blade. The knife is about 15 inches in overall length. Does anyone know of a English knife maker with a name similar to that, seen any other examples of the maker's work, and is anyone aware of reproductions being made of this maker's work? Please reply. Cheers, HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife query redux Date: 24 Oct 2000 08:55:07 -0700 Henry, As you've indicated, the "V...R" could quite possibly be the symbols for 'Victoria Reign'. This logo is quite often seen on British Commonwealth items of that era. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1904 4:13 PM > Friends, > The knife query never got answered. The thread went off on another tangent > before folks could respond. I'm posting the original query again just in > case anyone never saw it. > > Thanks, > HBC > > A student of mine showed me a photo of a knife with a antler handle. The > blade has an interesting marking near the base. There is a "V" and an "R" > with a crown in between, indicating that it was possibly made in the time > of Victoria. The manufacturer's name, Thornhill(?), is also stamped into > the base of the blade. The knife is about 15 inches in overall length. > Does anyone know of a English knife maker with a name similar to that, seen > any other examples of the maker's work, and is anyone aware of > reproductions being made of this maker's work? > > Please reply. > > Cheers, > HBC > > ********************************** > Henry B. Crawford > Curator of History > Museum of Texas Tech University > Box 43191 > Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Index Date: 24 Oct 2000 12:10:03 EDT INDEX history_text ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife query redux Date: 24 Oct 2000 13:22:44 EDT > A student of mine showed me a photo of a knife with a antler handle. The > blade has an interesting marking near the base. There is a "V" and an "R" > with a crown in between, indicating that it was possibly made in the time > of Victoria. The manufacturer's name, Thornhill(?), is also stamped into > the base of the blade. Henry, There was an English knifemaker, Walter Thornhill, London, 1890; who made fine Victorian cutlery. It was usually finely accoutered tableware, often in sterling silver. Your antler handled knife is probably a generic carving knife made by him. One often runs across these antler handled set at antique shows and flea markets. If you go into google.com and type in the key words "walter thornhill english knife" you will be returned with a British auction site which sold a set in 1998. The link was very slow and kept timing out on me, so I couldn't gain any more info. Of course, you could have done that yourself and saved me the trouble. <G> Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: metis Date: 24 Oct 2000 13:25:33 -0600 I've been discussing this topic offline with Allen Hall, and he felt some of our discussion might be useful to list members; Walt Foster & Ponyrider, please feel free to correct me or add more info: >When did Metis evolve as an identifiable name and >people? Well, there are two answers to that. The first one is that it happened around 1805, when the first mainly half-breed settlement began, at Pembina. The other is that the Metis became a nation during the Red River Rising in 1869, under the leadership of Louis 'David' Riel. It's similar to the origin of both of our countries: before 1776 (or 1867, for Canada), there was a group of English-speaking people that, in hindsight, we label 'Americans' or 'Canadians', but who were originally considered British. Certain events made them become aware that they were a different nation. >It certainly is possible that the half-breeds that I've read about >could be Metis, but is what is a Metis? I guess in my mind, this hasn't >been fully answered. I think a good working definition is that a Metis is someone descended from a man employed in the Canadian fur trade, and a Native woman. Louis Riel could be a good example: His great-grandmother & great-grandfather were Marie-Anne Lagimoniere (nee Gaboury), from Quebec, and Jean-Baptiste Lagimoniere, a voyageur for the NWC & HBC, and also a freeman (what you might call a free trapper). Their children were the first white kids born in Western Canada (starting in 1806). One of their daughters (Reine?) married a Metis man who came from (if I recall correctly) the Isle-a-la-Crosse area in Saskatchewan, and one of _her_ children was Louis Riel. So who, in the US Rocky Mountain fur trade, would be considered a Metis? Well, someone with a pedigree like Riel's, certainly. There were definitely Metis at Fort Vancouver. For example, all of Dr. John McLoughlin's children would be Metis, since his wife was Metis. (And with quite a fascinating genealogy, too--her father was the Swiss fur trader, Jean-Etienne Wadin, murdered by Peter Pond.) Since the McLoughlins married in 1811, it's quite possible that some adult children accompanied them to Ft. Vancouver. Chief Trader James Douglas and Peter Skene Ogden also had Metis wives. There is a new book called _Children of the Fur Trade_ that I believe deals more specifically with the Metis west of the Rockies--Ponyrider, I think you have more info on it? Who's the author & publisher? I haven't read it, but now I'm going to have to check it out, since my info on Metis is focused mostly on women. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: metis/Deschamp(sp)family Date: 24 Oct 2000 19:56:13 GMT I was reading a biography in the Hafen series on Charles Larpenter last night, and an incident with the Deschamp(sp) family, and another half-breed family was mentioned. The Deschamp's were living at Ft. William, and were vengefully killed. It was mentioned that the half-breed Deschamp family had been kicked out of the "Red River" settlement. The word Metis wasn't used, but could the Deschamps been Metis?? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" <hunter1828@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis/Deschamp(sp)family Date: 24 Oct 2000 20:13:16 GMT Well, let me tell you... Yes they were. I have been doing much research into the Deschamps family (over 3 years worth), and I have recently finished the third draft of a paper entitled "'This Wicked Family': The Story of a Metis Family, their Feuds, Fights, and Violent Demise". I intend to submit this paper to North Dakota History magazine next month and hope that they publish it sometime next year. If anyone is interested in receiving a copy of my draft, let me know and I will send it as an attachment in an off-list e-mail. Robert Thomson "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com I was reading a biography in the Hafen series on Charles Larpenter last night, and an incident with the Deschamp(sp) family, and another half-breed family was mentioned. The Deschamp's were living at Ft. William, and were vengefully killed. It was mentioned that the half-breed Deschamp family had been kicked out of the "Red River" settlement. The word Metis wasn't used, but could the Deschamps been Metis?? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: metis/Deschamps family Date: 24 Oct 2000 20:26:19 GMT Mr. Thompson, I would like a copy, if it would not be much of an inconvenience. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: todd glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Poison River Date: 24 Oct 2000 16:34:58 -0400 (EDT) Jon, Are you wondering about the Poison River as in "Poison River Party?" If so, it is the Malad river located in Southeastern Idaho. Malade comes from the French term "malade" meaning sickness. THe term seems to have originated from trappers who ate beaver trapped in the river and later became sick. It is speculated that the beaver had eaten roots that are poisonous to humans and that the poison had been stored or concentrated in the beavers flesh or liver. "Teton" Todd Glover #1784 ------Original Message------ Sent: October 24, 2000 3:31:06 AM GMT The AMM site lists 15 reqs. If I'm understanding this correctly (per Capt.L), to earn Bossloper (full membership) one must complete 10 reqs. in 1-2 years. To earn Hiveranno, one must complete 10 more reqs. (20 total) after being Bossloper for 3 years. Basic question is: what are the additional 5 AMM reqs. not listed on the web site? On another topic: Where exactly is Poison River located? Is (or was originally) the water really that horrible and bad tasting? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau Date: 24 Oct 2000 17:32:11 EDT In a message dated 10/23/00, atthesea@gte.net writes: << Last summer in the local Coos Bay, Oregon, newspaper, there was an article regarding the grave of JBC. His grave is reportedly near Jordan Valley, Oregon, near the Idaho line in SE Oregon. >> This is interesting. I' may have to do some research on this one of these days. Wonder who that feller is buried in Potosi, Mo. with his name on the stone? Longshot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau Date: 24 Oct 2000 17:52:37 EDT > This is interesting. I' may have to do some research on this one of these > days. Wonder who that feller is buried in Potosi, Mo. with his name on the > stone? Longshot, It's his old man, ain't it? Fox ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Canadian History on TV (OT) Date: 24 Oct 2000 14:01:47 -0600 You folks in the States are lucky, you've had so many good history series on TV, from _The Civil War_ to _Liberty!_. In Canada, we've had almost nothing. Finally, though, we have a very promising new series on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC), called _Canada: A People's History_. Talk about ambitious--they're doing *all* of Canadian history, from pre-contact Native pre-history (the first episode) right up to the present day, in thirty hours worth of two hour episodes, spread over two seasons. I was quite nervous before I saw the first show, on Sunday, but it was wonderful. I have to wait until January before I can see the episode that covers the 1774-1821 fur trade era, but I know now that it's going to be worth the wait. If anyone's stuck in a Canadian hotel room, or can receive CBC TV at home, check it out; it's on Sundays, 8-10 pm, and repeated on Thursdays, 8-10. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Peregrinate Date: 24 Oct 2000 15:06:04 -0700 Friends, Magpie and I are setting here contemplating our morning romp in the bush for pheasants and quail along the Snake River. Two shots, one quail. Nice head shot with a Tulle', thank you! (on the fly of course) Anyway Magpie has come up with another term that is probably period correct. "Sashay", To move or proceed easily or nonchalantly. We "sashayed" along the bush to the headlands where we partook of a simple repast of jerky, parched corn, maple sugar covered walnuts and branch water. After which we proceeded to walk up a couple covey's of quail. Shortly after the battle with the quail I kicked two mule deer, a doe and a fork horn into Magpie from the middle of a copse of brier. We then retired to the nearest Brewpub and partook of some fine German victuals where we rehashed our adventure. We now proceed to Crawdad's camp to plan our next sashay. (use it or loose it <G>) I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Peregrinate Date: 24 Oct 2000 18:24:02 -0400 Iffen I'd a knowed Magpie "sashayed". I'dda charged him more for his sticker..<BG> Generally, around here at least, when growed men "sashay" we tend to stay plumb clear of them...<G> D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tomactor@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau Date: 24 Oct 2000 18:55:00 EDT In a message dated 10/24/00 2:53:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: > This is interesting. I' may have to do some research on this one of these > > days. Wonder who that feller is buried in Potosi, Mo. with his name on > the > > stone? > > Longshot, > > It's his old man, ain't it? > or supposedly next to one of his mother's supposed graves near Ft. Hall, ID Tom Laidlaw, web coordinator for <A HREF="http://rutnut.com/octa/store/front.htm">OCTA's On-line Bookstore</A> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis/Deschamp(sp)family Date: 24 Oct 2000 18:18:14 -0500 Mr. Thomson, I'd be obliged if you would send me a copy of your draft. Thanks, Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: buffalo tongue Date: 24 Oct 2000 18:54:59 -0600 Ho there camp, i have priest journal that ref. (4 carts of 2 merchances buying buffalo tongue and dipping them in molasses in reding for shipping back to the settlements) Does anyone have any thing on this. how was it cooked and how big was the buffalo tongue market. also when was baking powder first used in northern ter. going deeper into history ponyrider Hallo your camp, Ponyrider: I'm coming on in! I noticed that none of the others have posted any answers to your question. Therefore I will venture mine. I can give you a straight forward answer to your question about tongues. It does not come from the books of history but rather from my grandmother....gulp...VBG The molasses dip coats the dried tongue with sulphur. This keeps the dried tongue in good condition. 1. Prepared for eating the dried tongue is soaked in plain water to rehydrate. 2. When soft and plump the tongue is ready for cooking in a boiling pot with fresh water. 3. The meat is allowed to cool. Sliced and served cold. I have been thinking about this correspondence while getting in some winter wood over in my camp along with some other things. One thing is for sure. I cannot spend time on this electronic camp fire to interact in a real active way with all the time it consumes. I can barely ride this here pc. There are periods when I can hack it in terms of time and when I can not. I had 2 big royal elk and 1 real nice 6 point mule deer buck through camp. The boys have kept me busy these first 3 days of this years meat making season running around. And what a grand start it has been. I like the idea of these small 4 to 5 man camps in the honey holes. It is a fine way to keep things moving. It is quiet moving and cool enough to handle big game easily. I hope your family is doing as good as mine is as winter's celebration of true 4 seasons comes on us during our fall preparations for what ever winter we are given to live with this year. The satellite weather picture looks pretty good too. For the rest of this week. This first week is usually the best as you know. Great Big Grin-GBG. Got my hair dressed and I am looking for my war paint bag! Ooops. Still busy....gotta go. PS. Maybe that NPS Historian at Ft Union would be able to comment on the scale of the tongues and baking powder. Better half calls.... Walt in his badgerhole Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: metis Date: 24 Oct 2000 18:55:02 -0600 I've been discussing this topic offline with Allen Hall, and he felt some of our discussion might be useful to list members; Walt Foster & Ponyrider, please feel free to correct me or add more info: >When did Metis evolve as an identifiable name and >people? Well, there are two answers to that. The first one is that it happened around 1805, when the first mainly half-breed settlement began, at Pembina. Angela Gottfred Hi Angela, Your first answer appears to be the most appropriate for understanding the history of the Metis in Montana. Also as I understand it that Pembina was considered a town by 1805. Pembina is only 150 miles or so north of where Lewis and Clark spent the winter of 1804/1805. Pembina is also attributed to be a cultural growth of the North American Fur Trade beginning with the French. The French fur trade was first and left it's share of mixed blood. A strong part of the Metis culture was French particularly appearing so in what is now called Montana. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Children of the Furtrade Date: 24 Oct 2000 18:48:07 -0700 Hallo Children of the Fur Trade : Forgotten Metis of the Pacific Northwest by John C. Jackson. Paperback (October 1995) It's a good book for those of us in the North and west. I bought it to better understand what and who the Metis were/are and how they affected the fur trade in our area (Nor'Westers and HBC). It has a lot of good info in it. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: ..... [OT] ..... Concho's Recent Posts to the List Date: 24 Oct 2000 22:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Is anyone else experiencing "scrambling" of ONLY HIS POSTS? embedded with some sort of extraneous <computer code> that makes message 5 times longer and almost impossible to read. seems to be occurring only just recently with his apparently new e-address. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lynn Kirby <lynnkirby@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis/Deschamp(sp)family Date: 24 Oct 2000 19:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Mr Thomson, I would also appreciate a copy of your paper. I'v read alittle about the Deschamp family in Ben Innis's book "Sagas of the Smoky-Water" --- Robert Thomson <hunter1828@hotmail.com> wrote: > Well, let me tell you... > > Yes they were. I have been doing much research into > the Deschamps family > (over 3 years worth), and I have recently finished > the third draft of a > paper entitled "'This Wicked Family': The Story of a > Metis Family, their > Feuds, Fights, and Violent Demise". I intend to > submit this paper to North > Dakota History magazine next month and hope that > they publish it sometime > next year. > If anyone is interested in receiving a copy of my > draft, let me know and I > will send it as an attachment in an off-list e-mail. > > Robert Thomson > > "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good > old Fort Union" > Charles Larpenteur, 1838 > > ---- > Robert Thomson > AMF Co > Fort Union > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: metis/Deschamp(sp)family > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:56:13 GMT > > I was reading a biography in the Hafen series on > Charles Larpenter last > night, and an incident with the Deschamp(sp) family, > and another half-breed > family was mentioned. The Deschamp's were living > at Ft. William, and were > vengefully killed. It was mentioned that the > half-breed Deschamp family had > been kicked out of the "Red River" settlement. The > word Metis wasn't used, > but could the Deschamps been Metis?? > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own > public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Poison River Date: 24 Oct 2000 22:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Thanks Allen. It's a mystery why in that period of time the water would be polluted. maybe beaver could have had some unknown virus-bacteria. guess we'll never know for sure unless some new documentation surfaces. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison River Date: 24 Oct 2000 19:48:21 -0700 Jon Marinetti wrote: > Thanks Allen. It's a mystery why in that period of time the water would > be polluted. Jon... twern't pollution, but what the beaver were eating... here's a snippet that Clay Landry sent a while back, quoted from Alexander Ross's book "Fur Hunters of the Far West" (page 276). Fall hunt of 1824- We now turn our attention to the Riviere aux Malades. We found beaver in considerable numbers.... For after breakfast the second morning a number of the people were taken ill, and the sickness becoming general throughout the camp, it struck me that there must have been sonething poisonous in our food or water.... and found that all those who had breakfasted on the fresh beaver taken out of the river were affected! ...The sickness first showed itself in a pain about the kidneys, then the stomach, and afterwards the back of the neck and all the nerves, and by and by the whole system became affected. The suffers were almost speechless and motionless, having scarcely the power to stir yet suffering great pain, which caused froth about the mouth....Some were sick for part of the day, but others, owing perhaps to the quantity they had eaten, were several days before they got over it and some of them felt the effects of it for a month afterwards. We then examined the flesh of the beaver and found it much whiter and softer, and the people who had eaten of it said much sweeter to the taste than the flesh of beaver generally. As there was no wood about the banks of the river we supposed these animals must have lived on roots, and in their food have eaten some poisoness roots which although not strong enough to destroy them was sufficiently deletorious to injure us, and from this it was that I named this stream Riviere aux Malades. (foot note says now called Big Wood River in south central Idaho). Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Humble Pie Date: 24 Oct 2000 23:11:31 EDT Dear Kanger, Kramer and others-equally-offended, I am posting this on the site since, in my hasty anger, I posted in front of others so brashly. I would like to address several issues in a humble manner. FIRST, I would like to offer my apologies to Mr. Kanger for my quick-temper and lack of restraint. My inappropriate reply was not so much aimed at him as it was a lack of handling (on my part) stressful events of that particular day and that was unexcusable. I am not in any way attempting to justify or excuse this behavior and would like to express my sorrow and ask Mr. Kanger to accept my apology and extend his forgiveness to me for the rude reply. SECONDLY, enough with all the cracks on the name! It was NOT (despite a prior posting interpreting it as a smart-allecky nom-de-plume) a smart-alecky nom-de-plume in response to a suggestion that signed posting were more appropriate. I am not "tenured" at any university nor am I a stranger to the woods & mtn.s with little to make do with (just new to doing it with a BP rifle and buckskins & tow-cloth). I think to assume that b/c one has survived with primitive/pc items that others are not skilled as getting by with little (how different is a pc skinning knife from a modern replica when it comes to using it for survival...or a modern fire-stell vs. a pc fire-steel?) could be an error. I by no means tend to take away from the accomplishment of the bossloper or hivernant but do not think that those of you who have reached such lofty achievements are the only persons capable of such survival skills. THIRD, people around my neck of the woods DO regularly use terms such as "chaw or chew the fat". Also, I used the term "coon" as it was used in the sense of fur trade vernacular (another term was regularly employed without offense which may well cause litigation if it were spoken today). At any rate, I LIKE THE WAY THOSE GUYS TALKED! If I make a mistake, then I will accept correction. To those that took offense at the term "coon" I refer you to the AMM web-page and its glossary of terms used by the Mtn. men. I posted/spoke in haste a few nights back to Mr. Kanger and I accept my licks for it (I read every posting re: this issue) and I repeat my apology and request for forgiveness to Mr. Kanger and the others whom I may have offended. I remain yours with a stuffed belly (of crow with humble pie for desert) -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison River Date: 24 Oct 2000 09:16:47 -0700 From what I remember reading (God only knows where) the beaver had been eating a certain plant, which tainted their meat for human consumption. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis/Deschamp(sp)family Date: 24 Oct 2000 20:26:36 -0700 Mr. Thomson, I'd like a copy of your paper on this family. Thank you. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 1:13 PM > Well, let me tell you... > > Yes they were. I have been doing much research into the Deschamps family > (over 3 years worth), and I have recently finished the third draft of a > paper entitled "'This Wicked Family': The Story of a Metis Family, their > Feuds, Fights, and Violent Demise". I intend to submit this paper to North > Dakota History magazine next month and hope that they publish it sometime > next year. > If anyone is interested in receiving a copy of my draft, let me know and I > will send it as an attachment in an off-list e-mail. > > Robert Thomson > > "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" > Charles Larpenteur, 1838 > > ---- > Robert Thomson > AMF Co > Fort Union > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: metis/Deschamp(sp)family > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:56:13 GMT > > I was reading a biography in the Hafen series on Charles Larpenter last > night, and an incident with the Deschamp(sp) family, and another half-breed > family was mentioned. The Deschamp's were living at Ft. William, and were > vengefully killed. It was mentioned that the half-breed Deschamp family had > been kicked out of the "Red River" settlement. The word Metis wasn't used, > but could the Deschamps been Metis?? > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan list: sources of natural blue dye Date: 25 Oct 2000 00:47:02 EDT O.K., you write: "Indigo was the most common source of blue dye throughout the 18th and 19th century. Other dyestuffs were also utilized such as: Prussian blue, woad, and chemic. Woad was utilized in Europe before the Dutch imported the East Indian Indigo during the later part of the 16th century. According to the Smithsonian," . . . . . . I have just started to look for Indigo and have found no sources. Any leads??? R. James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison River Date: 25 Oct 2000 00:54:09 EDT That would most likely be Water Hemlock the Beaver were eating. The way the trappers were affected by the beaver meat is very similar to the symptoms of Hemlock poisoning. Water Hemlock still grows on both the Big Wood River in south central Idaho and the Malad River in south eastern Idaho. Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison River Date: 24 Oct 2000 23:01:39 -0600 At 10:19 PM 10/24/2000 -0400, you wrote: >Thanks Allen. It's a mystery why in that period of time the water would >be polluted. maybe beaver could have had some unknown virus-bacteria. >guess we'll never know for sure unless some new documentation surfaces. Actually, the water wasn't polluted. Some think the beaver ate water hemlock. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Peregrinate Date: 25 Oct 2000 03:12:04 EDT In a message dated 10/24/00 3:24:56 PM, deforge1@bright.net writes: << Iffen I'd a knowed Magpie "sashayed". I'dda charged him more for his sticker..<BG> Generally, around here at least, when growed men "sashay" we tend to stay plumb clear of them...<G> D >> Haaaaaaaaaa! Dennis, your confusing sissy or sassy with sashay!!!?! Ain't no one more phobic than me, so , let's go with "Pereginate".....<G> Ain't no "sashayin" around here.... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Peregrinate (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 06:44:00 -0400 "your confusing sissy " Magpie. Dinnit say nuthin' about bein a sissy...<G> Just that men folk around here don't sashay.. LP said it is a Texian cowboy term.. Well, that explains alot, as I allays wondered about them Texian cowboys..<BG> Heeeere horsey, horsey, horsey....... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Peregrinate NADA Date: 25 Oct 2000 06:21:25 -0700 Dear Dennis, BITE ME ! LP -----Original Message----- "your confusing sissy " Magpie. Dinnit say nuthin' about bein a sissy...<G> Just that men folk around here don't sashay.. LP said it is a Texian cowboy term.. Well, that explains alot, as I allays wondered about them Texian cowboys..<BG> Heeeere horsey, horsey, horsey....... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elkflea@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan list: sources of natural blue dye Date: 25 Oct 2000 07:43:34 EDT <A HREF="http://www.dharmatrading.com/nd.html">Natural Dyes</A> Here is a store just north of S.F. that wifie always 'drags' me into. Certainly there must be scores of other shops scattered across the lands that deal in natural dyestuffs. She, claims, that this shop has 'things' that many other stores lack. But I did check their website and they have both natural and synthetic indigo dyes. Let me know if it is indigo, the preprocessed plant you are seeking. I understand that the indigo plant processing is a rather grueling ordeal of fermentation and dessication. Good luck.......flea ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 11:04:18 EDT In a message dated 10/25/00 3:44:36 AM, deforge1@bright.net writes: << as I allays wondered about them Texian cowboys..<BG> Heeeere horsey, horsey, horsey....... D >> LOL.... Yeah, me too.... I also wonder bout' them boys that wear Kilts. Heard it was because them sheep could hear a zipper a mile away.....<VBG> (I just locked my doors and am loading my guns!)..... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 11:27:13 -0400 --------------F9D06FD363DFFC49A734FDC9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like I have nae hearrrd that beforrre...G A couple of things that I like about wearing the kilt are 1, On a hot day a little breeze goes a long way ...G and 2, at 52 years of age my kilt got me a beautiful 24 year old bride. And one more thing...I may wear a kilt from time to time but I never, ever sashay...G Manbear > > > LOL.... Yeah, me too.... I also wonder bout' them boys that wear Kilts. > Heard it was because them sheep could hear a zipper a mile away.....<VBG> (I > just locked my doors and am loading my guns!)..... > > Magpie > > --------------F9D06FD363DFFC49A734FDC9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Like I have nae hearrrd that beforrre...G A couple of things that I like about wearing the kilt are 1, On a hot day a little breeze goes a long way ...G and 2, at 52 years of age my kilt got me a beautiful 24 year old bride. And one more thing...I may wear a kilt from time to time but I never, ever sashay...G Manbear <blockquote TYPE=CITE> LOL.... Yeah, me too.... I also wonder bout' them boys that wear Kilts. Heard it was because them sheep could hear a zipper a mile away.....<VBG> (I just locked my doors and am loading my guns!)..... Magpie <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"></a> </blockquote> </html> --------------F9D06FD363DFFC49A734FDC9-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 12:00:38 -0400 Roger, Do you have a Pilgrim Exchange program?<GG> D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 12:04:14 EDT In a message dated 10/25/00 8:28:51 AM, manbear@netonecom.net writes: << And one more thing...I may wear a kilt from time to time but I never, ever sashay...G >> Haaaaaa...lol. We're starting to lean more toward a "wander" or "ramble", or mebbe even a "meander". I considered a "gallivant"....but it's a little to close those stinkin "sashay's....<G> Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Peregrinate Date: 25 Oct 2000 09:34:19 -0700 Haaaaaaaaaa! Dennis, your confusing sissy or sassy with sashay!!!?! Ain't > no one more phobic than me, so , let's go with "Pereginate".....<G> Ain't no > "sashayin" around here.... > > Magpie Hey wait a minute buddy, it was your idea to use the word! Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canadian History on TV (OT) Date: 25 Oct 2000 09:57:45 -0600 Sorry, forgot to tell you folks two things about the series: --it will be released as VHS tapes & DVDs every month or so, once they've aired four or five episodes; you're supposed to be able to order online at the website (below), but it's not working just yet. --there is an accompanying website, at www.cbc.ca/history; more info on each episode will be released after it airs, so look for a bunch of good fur trade stuff to start appearing in January. Your humble ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Humble Pie Date: 25 Oct 2000 12:51:49 -0500 Dear C. Kent, I am known to be sharp tongued, short tempered, and humorless. It is not the words you use, it was the way you used them. You do not use the words in "the way those guys talked". Until you are more conversant with the vernacular it might be best to just speak in your modern voice. Old words were used in old ways, you (and damn few others) don't have a grasp of a true and effective old style. I believe Strunk & White, The Elements of Style, ISBN: #0-02-418200-1, caution strongly against trying to affect an idiom in one's writing style; few have the talent to employ same successfully. Some only make fools of themselves trying to effect what they consider an "ol' timey" way of writing" (I'm actually thinking of someone else right here, don't take this sentence personal). It was not just your one posting to which I took offense. The first time, and every time, you used the word coon: you offended me, you don't have the bones to call anyone on this list a coon. I can call myself a mountain nigger, you can't. Some of the people on this list that I've known well for 20 to 30 years could get away with it: in private. Get the point? It is also how it was then. I am not pc and take strong offense at the suggestion of same. You can be the most experienced woodsman in the world, but I've heard that before from braggarts and liars. It is what you know that you share, it is how good you are on the ground, us believing that you are more than BS ain't going to come from a few words on a magic box. Don't try and tell us that modern ways ain't no different than old ways -- until you really know something about the old ways. We were all born in this century and we all learned new ways first. The best of the new ways nearly killed me before I learned old ways that work. We've never claimed to be the sole possessors of knowledge, people of the rabbit stick I have nothing but respect for, and have learned much from. Can you walk naked with empty hands into the desert and survive; indefinitely? There are others with knowledge specific to their learning. You seem to have forgotten you threatened Dave with a knife in your posting; some of us take words seriously, even when the writer thinks they are cleverly obscured. You speak of humility in your opening and closing, the words between betray you. John... At 11:11 PM 10/24/00 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Kanger, Kramer and others-equally-offended, > >I am posting this on the site since, in my hasty anger, I posted in front of >others so brashly. I would like to address several issues in a humble manner. > > FIRST, I would like to offer my apologies to Mr. Kanger for my >quick-temper and lack of restraint. My inappropriate reply was not so much >aimed at him as it was a lack of handling (on my part) stressful events of >that particular day and that was unexcusable. I am not in any way attempting >to justify or excuse this behavior and would like to express my sorrow and >ask Mr. Kanger to accept my apology and extend his forgiveness to me for the >rude reply. > > SECONDLY, enough with all the cracks on the name! It was NOT (despite a >prior posting interpreting it as a smart-allecky nom-de-plume) a >smart-alecky nom-de-plume in response to a suggestion that signed posting >were more appropriate. I am not "tenured" at any university nor am I a >stranger to the woods & mtn.s with little to make do with (just new to doing >it with a BP rifle and buckskins & tow-cloth). I think to assume that b/c >one has survived with primitive/pc items that others are not skilled as >getting by with little (how different is a pc skinning knife from a modern >replica when it comes to using it for survival...or a modern fire-stell vs. a >pc fire-steel?) could be an error. I by no means tend to take away from the >accomplishment of the bossloper or hivernant but do not think that those of >you who have reached such lofty achievements are the only persons capable of >such survival skills. > > THIRD, people around my neck of the woods DO regularly use terms such as >"chaw or chew the fat". Also, I used the term "coon" as it was used in the >sense of fur trade vernacular (another term was regularly employed without >offense which may well cause litigation if it were spoken today). At any >rate, I LIKE THE WAY THOSE GUYS TALKED! If I make a mistake, then I will >accept correction. To those that took offense at the term "coon" I refer you >to the AMM web-page and its glossary of terms used by the Mtn. men. > > I posted/spoke in haste a few nights back to Mr. Kanger and I accept my >licks for it (I read every posting re: this issue) and I repeat my apology >and request for forgiveness to Mr. Kanger and the others whom I may have >offended. > >I remain yours with a stuffed belly (of crow with humble pie for desert) > >-C. Kent "A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on Earth... and what no just government should refuse." --Thomas Jefferson ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 12:00:01 -0700 Dennis Miles wrote: > Roger, > Do you have a Pilgrim Exchange program?<GG> Ahem.... Being such a "young" pilgrim under the tutelage of the good Captain et al, wet behind the ears, unsure which end of the gun the wee little lead sphere goes into, could get lost in the city park, ect, ect..... I generally keep my mouth shut in this august company out of concern of appearing uneducated in the way of the woods.... How-so-ever, all this talk of sa..... sha.... sashaying mountaineers, friendly horses, and worried sheep has me a wee bit concerned.... all I have to worry about with the Wilson Hunt Price party is digging latrines, fetching & carrying and the other sundry duties of a youngster surrounded by the very ancient and venerable elder Brothers of the AMM. So hopefully, no... he don't have no exchange program <worried look> Most Respectfully Lee Newbill Pilgrim on the trail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 14:57:00 -0400 Lee, I can see right now, yer goin' far....<G> D Aux Aliments de Pays! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Update (commercial) Date: 25 Oct 2000 15:52:22 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C03E9B.9014A920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excuse the crass announcement, but I have updated my site with some new = stickers for those who give a rat's petute.. http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 Thanks D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C03E9B.9014A920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Excuse the crass announcement, but I have updated my = site with=20 some new stickers for those who give a rat's petute..</DIV> <DIV><A=20 href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A></DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV> <DIV>D</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e" DOUBLE EDGE=20 FORGE "Knowing = how is just=20 the beginning" </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C03E9B.9014A920-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 14:37:21 -0700 D. Not when the pilgrim is a pilot with "buddy pass's", special geedunks from the airplane service tray that no one ever sees when they fly, like maple sugar covered walnuts, and I could go on. Get your own pilgrim! <G> Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 9:00 AM > Roger, > Do you have a Pilgrim Exchange program?<GG> > D > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 17:33:49 -0400 Cap't Ain't got no Pilgrims at the moment, they keep runnin' off... Trade ya somthin' else......<G> D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 17:40:05 EDT In a message dated 10/25/00 2:30:59 PM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << Not when the pilgrim is a pilot with "buddy pass's", special geedunks from the airplane service tray that no one ever sees when they fly, like maple sugar covered walnuts, and I could go on. Get your own pilgrim! <G> Capt. L --- >> LOL..... Thanks Capt Lahti.... and I thought I was being recruited to carry on the lasting tradition of the illustrious American Mountain Man! (you all can sit down now)...<VBG> Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles P Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cheap linen thread Date: 25 Oct 2000 15:43:44 -0600 Howdy the list. Lanney is dead on about the linnen thread, the last roll of Barbours linen six ply I purchased was $35.00 or so about 10 years ago. This "Cheaper than Dirt" thread seems to have a more glossey finish than the Barbours, but it looks like linen, smells like it, tastes like it and sews exactly like it. Being a natural fiber it takes dye well. C Webb >Some time ago there was a discussion about linen thread and about the >only thing that was agreed was that the stuff is extremely >pricy. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 14:58:14 -0700 > How-so-ever, all this talk of sa..... sha.... sashaying mountaineers, > friendly horses, and worried sheep has me a wee bit concerned.... all I > have to worry about with the Wilson Hunt Price party is digging latrines, > fetching & carrying and the other sundry duties of a youngster surrounded > by the very ancient and venerable elder Brothers of the AMM. > > So hopefully, no... he don't have no exchange program <worried look> > > Most Respectfully > > Lee Newbill > Pilgrim on the trail Well said, young master Newbill. Well said. And rest easy, no way am I letting you out of my sight and no way am I letting them lecherous Brothers in Other Parties get their sweaty palms on you! Not till we sqeezed the last ounce of labor out of you. <G> How's the back, son? <G> I'm look'in to need some help pulling that elk out of the woods come Nov. 21. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 16:03:17 -0700 and I thought I was being recruited to carry > on the lasting tradition of the illustrious American Mountain Man! (you all > can sit down now)...<VBG> What do you mean sit down. We're trying to get back up off the floor but we're still laughing too hard! <G> Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 16:00:44 -0700 D. Sorry but you ain't got nothing I would take for one of my Pilgrims! <G> Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 20:04:02 -0400 > Sorry but you ain't got nothing I would take for one of my Pilgrims! <G> Ya sure, ya old fart??? Hell.. I may have gud struff!! D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re (Banter) Date: 25 Oct 2000 17:36:23 -0700 > Ya sure, ya old fart??? Hell.. I may have gud struff!! I've seen your stuff and read the testimonials and I'm convinced you got gud struff. Just not as good as my pilgrims! All I got to say. <G> (probably not but it sounds good) Capt. Lahti' > D > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cheap linen thread Date: 25 Oct 2000 19:34:59 -0700 the spool I bought says on a sticker in the inside of the roll. natural linen 16oz. 6 ply. a while back I checked the leather factory's price [wholesale] on a roll of the same. it was $45.00 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 2:43 PM > Howdy the list. > Lanney is dead on about the linnen thread, the last roll of Barbours > linen six ply I purchased was $35.00 or so about 10 years ago. This > "Cheaper than Dirt" thread seems to have a more glossey finish than > the Barbours, but it looks like linen, smells like it, tastes like it > and > sews exactly like it. Being a natural fiber it takes dye well. > C Webb > > > >Some time ago there was a discussion about linen thread and about the > >only thing that was agreed was that the stuff is extremely > >pricy. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: new web site....www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com Date: 25 Oct 2000 21:56:30 -0700 for the last 3 years I have been promising to put up a web site on tipis, well....there is a site going up right now. Hey, I have two computers hooked up if you are wondering how I can two things at one time. It is still going to be several days before most of it is up because of the heavy load of photos. Which also means it takes time for it to down load on your side. What I need it impute on what you think, though this is not strictly 1830s or so, and how to improve the pages. Thanks.......I think. Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cheap linen thread Date: 25 Oct 2000 21:58:32 -0400 > Lanney is dead on about the linnen thread, the last roll of Barbours > linen six ply I purchased was $35.00 or so about 10 years ago. Went and ordered 3 rolls myself.... Thanks for putting this on.... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new web site....www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com Date: 25 Oct 2000 22:23:14 EDT In a message dated 10/25/00 6:40:21 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: << What I need it impute on what you think, though this is not strictly 1830s or so, and how to improve the pages. >> Hallo Linda, I think I've got the distinct honor of being the very first visitor to you Web page! (according to the visit counter) Outstanding site on one of my most favorite topics! ...you did good. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Grave of Jean Baptiste Charbonneau [alleged site] Date: 25 Oct 2000 22:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Ho the list: the link below has some good info & photos. Grave of Jean Baptiste Charbonneau [alleged site] Address:http://www.findagrave.com/pictures/3553.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: MtMan-List: pilgrims progress Date: 25 Oct 2000 21:16:59 -0700 > Ya sure, ya old fart??? Hell.. I may have gud struff!! I've seen your stuff and read the testimonials and I'm convinced you got gud struff. Just not as good as my pilgrims! All I got to say. <G> (probably not but it sounds good) Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> Subject: MtMan-List: KAK.HTA Date: 26 Oct 2000 10:01:45 -0400 I may have unknowingly passed tha KAK.HTA vi*us along to the lists. Please check your files and run a virus scan. If I did, my apologies. I received it in an email attachment... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: KAK.HTA Date: 26 Oct 2000 10:21:52 -0400 Ad, one of the ways to spread the KAK virus is through a E-mail signature. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ----- Original Message ----- <mlml@list.vnet.net> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 10:01 AM > I may have unknowingly passed tha KAK.HTA vi*us along to the lists. Please > check your files and run a virus scan. If I did, my apologies. I received > it in an email attachment... > > Ad Miller > Alderson, WV > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 09:00:08 -0500 My email seems to be on the blink. Just where is this Tipi site? Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 09:00:08 -0500 My email seems to be on the blink. Just where is this Tipi site? Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 11:13:51 EDT In a message dated 10/26/00 7:59:39 AM, harddog@mediaone.net writes: << My email seems to be on the blink. Just where is this Tipi site? Harddog >> http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/ Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 10:24:48 -0500 The URL was in her subject line, I was about to ask the same thing when it hit me. http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/ I should send her a picture of the remains of my friends new this spring Spring Valley tipi. She'd lit some candles in it as her and a friend were going to spend the night in it. They also were having a bonfire outside the tent. One of the people looked at the tent and wondered about all the smoke coming out the top. As soon as the opened the door - whoosh. She could believe how fast the flame retardent tipi went up. Everything inside burnt, I was finding shells from her shell dress, she had a camp chair and pack baskets, all ashes. Should make an interesting dig site sometime! B^) Jim /`-_ Jim Lindberg |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa { . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue |Flambeau Rivere Voyageurs \ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter, |___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal/ |Until we next meete. Go Gentle. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new web site....www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com Date: 26 Oct 2000 08:28:49 -0700 (PDT) --- SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/25/00 6:40:21 PM, > tipis@mediaone.net writes: > > << What I need it impute on what you think, > though this is not strictly 1830s > or > so, and how to improve the pages. > >> > > Hallo Linda, > > I think I've got the distinct honor of being > the very first visitor to you > Web page! (according to the visit counter) > Outstanding site on one of my most > favorite topics! ...you did good. > > Ymos, > Magpie Hate to break the news to you, Magpie, but the counter's not working for you. I"M the very first visitor! ===== deafstones As I was walking up the stair I met a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. I wish, I wish he'd stay away. Hughes Mearns __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 13:01:19 -0400 Linda, you may have a problem with your site... or I have a problem with Netscape 4.75.... Pictures were over the text in several places, the counter did not seem to work, and it took FOREVER to load... graphic intensive? Otherwise, it looked top be a great site... Ad Miler ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 13:29:43 EDT > Linda, you may have a problem with your site... It's too wide. Try to size your page so that it is less than 640 pixels wide. Most users have only 14" or 15" monitors and will not read your page if they have to scroll back and forth to read it. > Pictures were over the text in several places, The relative spacings you have chosen for your graphics cause them to float, rather than have the text wrap around them, and consequently they float over the text, rendering it unreadable. This is true even when using IE5.5, the latest version which should support your Frontpage coding. >the counter did not seem to work, The right side of the counter is covered by a graphic, making only part of the left side viewable. >FOREVER to load... graphic intensive? Get one of the shareware graphics programs which allows you to size and compress the graphics. Paintshop Pro is the best and can be downloaded from most of the software repositories. Compressing them allows them to load faster. > Otherwise, it looked top be a great site... Good site once you get the bugs worked out of it. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: removal of name Date: 26 Oct 2000 15:44:03 EDT Please remove me from the list; thank you. huss931@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 16:28:21 EDT In a message dated 10/26/00, admiller@brier.net writes: << Linda, you may have a problem with your site... or I have a problem with Netscape 4.75.... Pictures were over the text in several places,>> I get the same thing witht eh same version of Netscape, but do not have the same problem with Internet Explorer. i did not change my settings and do not know if this has any effect. I'm set at 1024 x 786. <<the counter did not seem to work, >> Same here, both browsers. Otherwise it's a great site and seems to be well thought out. As for the problem with the counter, could be any number of things. As for the other problem, using a table might be the solution. Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 16:38:13 EDT Linda, Just looked at yer code for why the pic is overlaying the wording. Problem is in your code. I would suggest thinking about using a table to correct it. Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 17:01:28 -0700 Go to www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com or go to www.tipis.org harddog wrote: > My email seems to be on the blink. Just where is this Tipi site? > > Harddog > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 17:10:19 -0700 Send me the photos of the burned lodge...will add them to a later page on tipi dissasters...including my own 12' that burned to the ground. linda Jim Lindberg wrote: > The URL was in her subject line, I was about to ask the same thing when > it hit me. > > http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/ > > I should send her a picture of the remains of my friends new this spring > Spring Valley tipi. She'd lit some candles in it as her and a friend > were going to spend the night in it. They also were having a bonfire > outside the tent. One of the people looked at the tent and wondered > about all the smoke coming out the top. As soon as the opened the door > - whoosh. She could believe how fast the flame retardent tipi went up. > Everything inside burnt, I was finding shells from her shell dress, she > had a camp chair and pack baskets, all ashes. Should make an > interesting dig site sometime! B^) > > Jim > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > /`-_ Jim Lindberg |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa > { . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue |Flambeau Rivere Voyageurs > \ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter, > |___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal/ |Until we next meete. Go Gentle. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new web site....www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com Date: 26 Oct 2000 17:36:33 -0700 No guys, I was the first and then everybody after was first. How do you turn the counters on??? Linda S Jones wrote: > --- SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 10/25/00 6:40:21 PM, > > tipis@mediaone.net writes: > > > > << What I need it impute on what you think, > > though this is not strictly 1830s > > or > > so, and how to improve the pages. > > >> > > > > Hallo Linda, > > > > I think I've got the distinct honor of being > > the very first visitor to you > > Web page! (according to the visit counter) > > Outstanding site on one of my most > > favorite topics! ...you did good. > > > > Ymos, > > Magpie > > Hate to break the news to you, Magpie, but the > counter's not working for you. I"M the very first visitor! > > ===== > deafstones > As I was walking up the stair > I met a man who wasn't there. > He wasn't there again today. > I wish, I wish he'd stay away. > Hughes Mearns > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 17:41:55 -0700 I am straightening out the pages tonight. As I said, this is very graphic intensive even with gif and jpg. Will be working on it tonight and for the next few days. I used Explorer and found the same problem on the photos overlapping. This is a research and information site..... And can I link to you.....? Linda Addison Miller wrote: > Linda, you may have a problem with your site... or I have a problem with > Netscape 4.75.... Pictures were over the text in several places, the counter > did not seem to work, and it took FOREVER to load... graphic intensive? > Otherwise, it looked top be a great site... > > Ad Miler > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 17:46:02 -0700 Thanks for the info. I have a 17 plus screen and then saw it for the first time on my other 14"...oooops. Still working on the site...and it is very picture oriented. I used jpg because of the fuzziness of gif for most photos since many people do research on the tipis. But I do see the point. Will be working on it tonight to pare down the size of a page, changing photos, and adding many more. Linda ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > Linda, you may have a problem with your site... > > It's too wide. Try to size your page so that it is less than 640 pixels > wide. Most users have only 14" or 15" monitors and will not read your page > if they have to scroll back and forth to read it. > > > Pictures were over the text in several places, > > The relative spacings you have chosen for your graphics cause them to float, > rather than have the text wrap around them, and consequently they float over > the text, rendering it unreadable. This is true even when using IE5.5, the > latest version which should support your Frontpage coding. > > >the counter did not seem to work, > > The right side of the counter is covered by a graphic, making only part of > the left side viewable. > > >FOREVER to load... graphic intensive? > > Get one of the shareware graphics programs which allows you to size and > compress the graphics. Paintshop Pro is the best and can be downloaded from > most of the software repositories. Compressing them allows them to load > faster. > > > Otherwise, it looked top be a great site... > > Good site once you get the bugs worked out of it. > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipis Date: 26 Oct 2000 17:56:32 -0700 Want to thank everyone here who is putting impute into the web site. I am writing down all the information and given time, I will sort out the problems and conquer them. Hey, it took me a while to hit my first 10X with my "original" Lemman or Lyman or however you spell that darn name. Keep the suggestions coming. Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Braintan and bugs Date: 26 Oct 2000 19:10:10 EDT Ho Camp, I have a friend who runs a deer processing center and I have access to some pretty good whitetail skins. I have done a good bit of research (books and web mostly cause I don't know anyone round here who does braintan) and am ready to start trying to braintan a skin or two. The materials I have read all talk about the different types of brain to use. I was just wondering if anyone out there knows if the brains can make you sick or residue wil do the same (some brains carry viruses and "slow viruses" - that hang around for months or years and then get you)? Has anyone gotten sick from this process? What steps can I take (besides latex gloves) to prevent this? Or am I just worrying too much about this? Thanks for advice anyone! Humbly Yours, -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan and bugs Date: 26 Oct 2000 05:33:20 -0700 C. Kent, It won't hurt to be careful. I wash my hands often with good soap all through the process. I also use lots of hand lotion, If your skin is saturated it won't soak up as well. I don't handle brains if I have raw cuts, etc.. on my hands. I have heard of fellows having problems with bacteria infections, but the word is these guys weren't very hygenic in the first place. If your hands are cracked, or cut, or puntured, ....heal your hands before messing with brains, etc.... I have never used gloves while braining, but I do make sure my hands aren't 'open' for infection. My favorite brain books are Wet-Scrape Braintanned Buckskin, by Edholm and Wilder ISBN 0-9654965-4-6 and Deerskins into Buckskins by Richards ISBN 0-9658672-0-X hope this helps, hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan and bugs Date: 26 Oct 2000 17:39:49 -0700 according to my limited knowledge of such parasites. you have to ingest them, through the digestive system. the reason the effects take a year to notice is, the parasite is making it's way slowly from the bowel to the blood stream and eventually to the brain. plus, I think you have to cook the brains before you use them to tan hides, therfore killing the parasites. please correct me, anybody, if I'm wrong about this. YMOS Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 4:10 PM > Ho Camp, > > I have a friend who runs a deer processing center and I have access to some > pretty good whitetail skins. I have done a good bit of research (books and > web mostly cause I don't know anyone round here who does braintan) and am > ready to start trying to braintan a skin or two. The materials I have read > all talk about the different types of brain to use. I was just wondering if > anyone out there knows if the brains can make you sick or residue wil do the > same (some brains carry viruses and "slow viruses" - that hang around for > months or years and then get you)? Has anyone gotten sick from this process? > What steps can I take (besides latex gloves) to prevent this? Or am I just > worrying too much about this? Thanks for advice anyone! > > Humbly Yours, > -C. Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan and bugs Date: 26 Oct 2000 16:49:49 -0700 Get an experienced hand to help you through your first hide or two. Save on time & frustration. Books listed are great! Also lots good info at braintan.com. As long as you don't have open cuts on your hands you'll be okay....but don't ask me how I know this. Rick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan and bugs Date: 26 Oct 2000 19:29:21 -0500 C.Kent By all means use the latex gloves. Several years ago a friend of mine = brain tanned a deer skin with his bare hands, one of which had a couple = of small open cuts...paper cut size, not big wounds at all. His hand = got infected so badly that he was bedridden for days. Buy plenty of = brains (ask your butcher) and make a fresh batch of brain solution when = needed Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan and bugs Date: 26 Oct 2000 18:46:19 -0600 At 05:39 PM 10/26/2000 -0700, you wrote: >according to my limited knowledge of such parasites. you have to ingest >them, through the digestive system. the reason the effects take a year to >notice is, the parasite is making it's way slowly from the bowel to the >blood stream and eventually to the brain. plus, I think you have to cook >the brains before you use them to tan hides, therfore killing the >parasites. please correct me, anybody, if I'm wrong about this. >YMOS >Tom As Tom noted, cooking helps. I use my wife's blender and blend the brains up really fine (usually when she's gone, then wash good to hide the evidence). Next I throw the brain "soup" into a pan with a little water and bring it to a boil. The brains will go from pink to gray. As soon as they hit a boil I take them off the heat and let them cool. I usually then put the brains in the container I'll be soaking the hides in and add enough cold water to make the solution cool. If you can't leave your hand in there for about a minute, it's too hot. Don't want to "cook" the hide. This has worked for me and I've had no problems infection wise. Good luck! Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan and bugs Date: 26 Oct 2000 21:01:19 EDT In a message dated 10/26/0 04:11:17 PM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: <<Or am I just worrying too much about this? >> Yup. Those brains are simmered into "soup" before you begin to use them. The rule for pasturization is 140 degrees plus for 10 minutes kills bacteria. You will get some other messages, but all the times I have done this process and all the Indians I know who have . . . nobody got sick from it. R. James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan and bugs Date: 26 Oct 2000 20:26:11 -0700 Next I throw the brain "soup" into a pan with a little water and > bring it to a boil. The brains will go from pink to gray Allen, I didn't want to jump in here too soon because I know many of you have had a lot more experience braining hides than I have. But just for a bit extra info, when I did it I cooked the brains as a whole first to the gray color (done) and then pulverized them in the wife's blender when she wasn't around, cleaned it up and put it away and added the brain soup to water as you do. Worked fine. So I think you can cook them first, then pulverize if you want to. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan and bugs Date: 26 Oct 2000 23:53:00 EDT If the brains have been handled correctly it ain't no different from any other piece of meat. Keep them cold until ready to use, and then make your slush. Work it 1 day and dispose of leftovers. Till trails cross Turtle ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan Macready <duncanm@ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan and bugs Date: 27 Oct 2000 23:55:22 +1300 The part you actually use of the brain in braintan is the fats, as long as you don't cook up the brain enough to render out the fat or denature it ,you shouldn't have a problem. YMOS Cutfinger Friendships made,Problems shared Campfires across the wilderness. Auckland, New Zealand ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce S. de Lis" <delis@fastq.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Kit & Parts Buyers Beware!! Date: 27 Oct 2000 07:00:44 -0700 I would like to share a recent experience with you in hopes that non of you get Burned as I recently did on a Longrifle Kit, that I purchase from what I can only describe as an unscrupulous trader who does not stand behind his written or spoken word. About Eleven months ago I was thing about a certain style Longrifle and found this Trader that sell such and kits with grades of wood from very low to very highly figured, and his catalog clearly stated that this particular kit came with a =93Large Siler Lock=94. I called the trader on several occasions to ask questions about his particular lit, and how he graded his wood. Also I asked if his Siler Locks that were supplied with his kit were Chamber Silers, or Generic Silers. I was told by the Trader that the locks we Silers that he specifically had assembled, and were every much as good as the Chamber Slier that are so fine. THIS TRADER does not accept PLASTIC, and only does business by check, cash or money order. I order the kits with the assurance of getting what I was promised, and sent a personal check for almost $800.00 to cover the kit, replacement Investment Cast Ram Rod Pipes, and Entry Thimble, Patch Box, and Patch Box Release Spring Kit. The box with the kit arrived in three weeks and I drove cross town to drop it off with my friend who is a hobby builder. Went we opened the kit to my surprise thing were not right. First off I did not get as promised on the telephone & catalog a Large Siler Lock. What was enclosed was a poorly assemble L & R Classic lock that had more than a few problems. Also the Investment Cast Ram Rod Pipes, and Entry Thimble that I pad extra for were not included in the kit was I got was the STANDARD Brass Sheet Metal Ram Rod Pipes, and Entry Thimble. Last the stock that I paid a real premium for was not as represented =93Striped Like A Barber Pole From End to End=94. So the next business day I called the Trader spoke with the owner of the company and asked what gives. The explanation I got was that the L & R Classic was =93TECHNICALLY=94 a Siler, also =93HE=94 thought the enclosed= Rod Pipes, and Entry Thimble would look best with the kit I ordered. Last the stock that was sent was =93HIS BEST=94. I had already check the Lock Mortise, and found that his L & R Lock Mortise was way to big for a Large Siler, and that if I purchased a Large Siler from Chambers it would flop around in the over sized lock mortise. I asked the Trader about his =93RETURN=94 policy stated in his catalog, a= nd was told in so many words that what I got was his best and he could do nothing for me at this point. As all his kit were the same, and I was getting the impression that I was dealing with an unscrupulous person who had my money, and I really had no recourse. The point of this post is a WARNING TO ALL WHO READ THIS. If you are not able to purchase in person, and must do as I did. Use your CREDIT CARD, and DO NOT SEND CHECKS, CASH, OR MONEY ORDERS AS I DID. As I wound up with a canceled check, and POOR QUALITY, NOT AS STATED KIT WITH ZERO RECOURSE. Had I used a Credit Card as payment I would have had all kinds of recourse, and would have been able to put the charge in a DISPUTED status, and in the end I am sure all I may have eaten was return postage for the kit returned to the trader. I will not tell you the name of this unscrupulous trader, but they have been in business many years. That have a catalog, and sell a bunch of stuff. I should have know better as most business persons who are doing a high volume of sales would normally take one of the major credit cards, as it open up more potential sales of those who wish to buy and pay on time. But than as a merchant you must sign an agreement to conduct business with in what I shall call =93Ethical Guidelines=94. The kit was finished into a gun, and sold several months after completion through a broker for what I had in the kit. So in the end I had no monitory loss, just a lot of aggravation. The Lock is not a fast good sparking Siler, it is a slow, poor sparker poorly assembled L & R Classic. I will state on last time when making purchase in person check check, and re check what you are buy. Always try to use your CREDIT CARD as you have right you do not when paying with cash, check, or money order. Last if you must buy mail order use your CREDIT CARD to protect yourself from unscrupulous traders. Also remember that most Trader are reputable Business People who want Repeat business, but there is a small percentage who one they got your money could careless about after sales service, as they got your money... PP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@favorites.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences Date: 26 Oct 2000 22:50:55 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C03F9F.32FD87C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Earlier this week Capt Lahti wrote: What traveling expenses? Driving out of town and walking off into the = woods for a few days with some jerk and parched corn? Or without? And = just living off the land? Sounds like a smoke screen to me. <G> Since no = one else commented on the good Capt's words am I the only who thought = that he was referring to his fellow sashayer or peregrinators as "some = jerk" when they read his post for the first time?=20 Humbly WY ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C03F9F.32FD87C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV> Earlier this week Capt Lahti wrote: What traveling expenses? Driving out of town and walking off into the = woods=20 for a few days with some jerk and parched corn? Or without? And just = living off=20 the land? Sounds like a smoke screen to me. <G> Since no one else=20 commented on the good Capt’s words am I the only who thought that = he was=20 referring to his fellow sashayer or peregrinators as "some jerk" when = they read=20 his post for the first time? Humbly WY</DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C03F9F.32FD87C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences Date: 27 Oct 2000 10:29:59 -0700 (PDT) --- Wynn & Gretchen Ormond <leona3@favorites.com> wrote: > Earlier this week Capt Lahti wrote: > > What traveling expenses? Driving out of town and walking off into the woods for a few days with some jerk and parched corn? Or without? And just living off the land? Sounds like a smoke screen to me. <G> Since no one else commented on the good Capt's words am I the only who thought that he was referring to his fellow sashayer or peregrinators as "some jerk" when they read his post for the first time? <SNIP> I am the original poster of the request for your experiences with the AMM. The travel expenses I mentioned referred to the requirement of attending National or Territorial events. Neither is mandatory but I understand that it is essential that others do witness your efforts and handiwork. I also understand that not all Brigades can accomodate all levels of skills, interests and authenticity. I'm in central Kansas between the Cheyenne Bottoms and Quivera Wildlife Refuges. The Mixed Grass Plains are a far cry from the Mountain Man's haven. The Santa Fe Trail does cross my front door. The Kansas Brigade has only 7 members and I do know three of them. As I said, not all Brigades are the same or accomodating. I do learn, practice and live a week-end or two a month the 18th and 19th century ways and manners, usually alone. My interest in the AMM is a search of companions and hopefully a mentor. This forum has helped me dispell some of the mis-information I've gathered before I subscribed to the list. Thanks very much. I don't mind being judged as tactless since I know the web is a voiceless and faceless medium. Here's hoping our trails do cross. ===== deafstones As I was walking up the stair I met a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. I wish, I wish he'd stay away. Hughes Mearns __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@about.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit & Parts Buyers Beware!! Date: 27 Oct 2000 11:30:08 -0600 <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><blockquote><blockquote><TT> ---- Begin Original Message ---- From: "Bruce S. de Lis" <delis@fastq.com> Sent: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:00:44 -0700 <18thCenturyAmerica@egroups.com> I would like to share a recent experience with you in hopes that non of you get Burned as I recently did on a Longrifle Kit, that I purchase from what I can only describe as an unscrupulous trader who does not stand behind his written or spoken word........................ I will state on last time when making purchase in person check check, and re check what you are buy. Always try to use your CREDIT CARD as you have right you do not when paying with cash, check, or money order. Last if you must buy mail order use your CREDIT CARD to protect yourself from unscrupulous traders. Also remember that most Trader are reputable Business People who want Repeat business, but there is a small percentage who one they got your money could careless about after sales service, as they got your money... PP ---- End Original Message ---- This is sad but a story I hear at least once or twice a year, more resently on craftsman selling their wares. Having provided supplies for the period folks for over 25 years from a retail, a wholesale and a mail order business', I hate to see this still a problem, so be aware of it and check out whom your dealing with. A good source for checking your next advertised trader out would be on the internet period trade list - talk lines or the trader's local better business association, good luck. </TT> <TT>Take care, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Visit HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ </TT> <TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></body></html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences Date: 27 Oct 2000 11:07:59 -0700 I think the good captain left off the letter y from his post. I believe he meant to say "...some jerky and parched corn...". On the Heely-- Rick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences Date: 27 Oct 2000 14:27:43 -0400 Rick, Ya sure??<GG> D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 2:07 PM > > > I think the good captain left off the letter y from his post. I believe he > meant to say "...some jerky and parched corn...". > > On the Heely-- > Rick > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences Date: 27 Oct 2000 14:42:59 EDT Don't get me started ....Dennis!!!?! <G> Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Capotes Date: 27 Oct 2000 14:49:59 EDT Hallo the List, I suspect the "Great Capt Lahti" is going to try and freeze me to death this winter on a "jaunt"....so I'm wondering what was the most common style (old tailor, Norwester, Metis, etc) capote used in the RMFT. I'm not gonna go under that easy...(I've got a new knife he wants) Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Batterton <jbattert@sherbtel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe please Date: 27 Oct 2000 15:03:58 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01C04027.29C432C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe hist_text-digest ------ =_NextPart_000_01C04027.29C432C0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgsUAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYASAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAVwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0 cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AU01UUABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAAAeAAIwAQAA AAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAA AwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHwAAACdoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29t JwAAAgELMAEAAAAiAAAAU01UUDpISVNUX1RFWFRATElTVFMuWE1JU1NJT04uQ09NAAAAAwAAOQAA AAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAALvRQEEgAEAEwAAAHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlIHBsZWFzZQA/ BwEFgAMADgAAANAHCgAbAA8AAwA6AAUATQEBIIADAA4AAADQBwoAGwAPAAIAKAAFADoBAQmAAQAh AAAAQzg1NDM1MzY1MDQwQzAxMTlGMTUxMkM4QzhFRUM2Q0IAGQcBA5AGANwBAAAUAAAACwAjAAAA AAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBgLqUKUUDAAR4AcAABAAAAEwAA AHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlIHBsZWFzZQAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAcBAUQqdiwl2QawZEdSp4t3NoJ0DUAAA HgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABYAAABqYmF0dGVydEBzaGVyYnRlbC5uZXQAAAAD AAYQ2UpL5QMABxAaAAAAHgAIEAEAAAAbAAAAVU5TVUJTQ1JJQkVISVNUVEVYVC1ESUdFU1QAAAIB CRABAAAApAAAAKAAAABHAQAATFpGddEpeL3/AAoBDwIVAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldO4y BgAGwwKDMgPGBxMCg7ozEw19CoAIzwnZOxX/eDI1NQKACoENsQtgbvBnMTAzFCALChLyDAH6YwBA IAqFCo8LkRQiDAFacANgdAWQBUB1AIB1QmIE8mJlIGgEAHQCXx0weHQtZGlnvQeQdBm9HQYbVRUh ACFgAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzBgxnzcUEDAAUAACDBgxnzcUEDAAR4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAA AAADAA00/TcAAPZk ------ =_NextPart_000_01C04027.29C432C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan and bugs Date: 27 Oct 2000 21:59:03 -0600 At 08:26 PM 10/26/2000 -0700, you wrote: Capt, That should work just fine. I don't even remember why I started doing it the way I do. Have to give your method a try. Lord knows I've got enough hides laid on to experiment with. Ole Rick Palmer's been complaining about his braintan pants going south on him, so he's been eyeballin' my hides...... Take care. Allen >Allen, > >I didn't want to jump in here too soon because I know many of you have had a >lot more experience braining hides than I have. But just for a bit extra >info, when I did it I cooked the brains as a whole first to the gray color >(done) and then pulverized them in the wife's blender when she wasn't >around, cleaned it up and put it away and added the brain soup to water as >you do. Worked fine. So I think you can cook them first, then pulverize if >you want to. > >Capt. Lahti' > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes Date: 27 Oct 2000 22:23:07 -0700 The simpler the better from a historical point of view. No cloth or leather fringe. No tassels or streamers from the hood. Originals made by the voyagers were tailored in the sleeves. Most had buttons of some sort. I figure if it has an attached hood, it's a capote. Without a hood, it's a blanket coat or jacket. The untailored versions sans buttons and with streamers, fringe and such were Indian style and dated from the reservation period in most museum examples. These Blackfoot and Salish styles were often featured in ads by the Northern Pacific railroad and paintings by Remington and Russell. I've pretty much substituted a poncho for my cold weather outer wear. It doubles as a blanket at night. If I'm wearing it in the cool of the morning, it rolls up and ties across my shoulder out of the way as the sun warms up. 'Course I'm from California where snow is an unnecessary freezing of water. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 11:49 AM > Hallo the List, > > I suspect the "Great Capt Lahti" is going to try and freeze me to death this > winter on a "jaunt"....so I'm wondering what was the most common style (old > tailor, Norwester, Metis, etc) capote used in the RMFT. > > I'm not gonna go under that easy...(I've got a new knife he wants) > > Ymos, > Magpie > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: 58 acres in Wolf Creek, Lewis & Clark County, Montana - AUCTION] Date: 28 Oct 2000 10:28:13 -0400 > I came across this and thought someone on the list might be interested. > U.S. Marshals Service Auctions 58 Acres Online (Subject Line) > > The U.S. Marshals Service offers for auction at Bid4Assets.com 58 acres in > Wolf Creek, Lewis & Clark County, Montana. Just west of Great Falls, this > acreage boasts magnificent mountain views. Perfect for quiet getaways and > recreational use. Photos and additional due diligence materials are > available on the Bid4Assets.com site. > > Bidders interested in learning more about the acreage may click on the > following link. The auction closes on October 31, 2000. > > http://www.bid4assets.com/cgi-bin/redir.pl?l=wolfcreekfinnet > > Bidders without Internet access or requiring additional information may > contact Client Services at Bid4Assets.com toll-free at 877-427-7387 or > email service@bid4assets.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: mt man list unsubscribe Date: 29 Oct 2000 13:18:35 EST Please unsubscribe me; thanks Huss931@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List:#1676 Date: 29 Oct 2000 12:23:01 -0700 Walt, what I wrote is not a "story," but a quote directly from Ann Hafen, a far better historian than I. The best part of it is that I didn''t have to rely on remembering anything. I looked it up and quoted chapter and verse, straight from the book to the list. That is how I understand the concept of documentation. Unfortunately, too many folks on this list "remember" things that just ain't so once the book gets opened. If we could all add a reference to our comments instead of just spouting opinions, comments from failed memories, this list would be a lot more attractive to those with a genuine interest in documented history. Second, you haven't defined "Metis" sufficiently for me to agree that Jean Baptiste could be classified as such. Finally, I totally agree with Allen. Jim Hardee, AMM #1676 Hi Jim, sure it is and that comes from the most famous mountain man of all Jim Bridger himself. While growing up here with his legends one particular point keeps coming to mind and that is what it is about it is all a story. History is a story. Writing about history is a story. One of the reference resources I use is Volume 1 of The American Fur Trade of the Far West. The author is Hiram Martin Chittenden. Book number ISBN 0-8032-6320-1. I think I can better describe what a Metis in our mountain country is better than I can define a Metis. I have pointed to the drawings of Alfred Miller as showing a wide mix of Metis culture in his 1837 drawings. Jean Baptiste is the result of a mixed marriage in the fur trade industry on the upper Missouri which can only make him a Metis. The fact you pointed out about him having 14 years as a trapper working the small streams does indicate a significant event. Your support of Allen's argument that the Metis did not play a significant part in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade is debatable on the Upper Missouri which includes the Yellowstone River and the tributary the Big Horn River which turns into the Wind River curving around the south edge of the park. I hoped this Metis stuff could float into the foreground without the brain pressure of the use of the historical method. I have a degree from Montana State University-Billings 1971 and have been permitted by the State of Montana to teach Montana History. I do not consider myself a historian but rather a history buff. I have a strong interest in the hunters, traders, and trappers who worked the rivers and streams of Montana as well as other places. I will use Chittenden in the future. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: buffalo tongue Date: 29 Oct 2000 12:33:03 -0700 Ho there camp, i have priest journal that ref. (4 carts of 2 merchances buying buffalo tongue and dipping them in molasses in reding for shipping back to the settlements) Does anyone have any thing on this. how was it cooked and how big was the buffalo tongue market. also when was baking powder first used in northern ter. going deeper into history ponyrider Hallo your camp, Ponyrider: In Volume 2 of The American Fur Trade of the Far West by Hiram Martin Chittenden ISBN 0-8032-6321-X on page 807 "The quantity of tongues annually sent down to St. Louis was immense and in the single year of 1848 reached the number of 25,000." Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences Date: 29 Oct 2000 15:50:17 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C041BF.EF8B0BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Jerk" is vernacular for "jerky". Since it was in the same sentence and = connected with "parched corn" as it was I though all would understand. = With the addition of a <G> for "Grin" in place one is also to take the = passage as presented in all good natured fun rather than as a "cut" at = anyone for their timidity or lack of drive in "just doing it". My = partners know I do not consider them "jerks" nor they I, lest we would = not keep each others company. Now that that is straightened = out.............<VBG> I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 8:50 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences Earlier this week Capt Lahti wrote: What traveling expenses? Driving out of town and walking off into the = woods for a few days with some jerk and parched corn? Or without? And = just living off the land? Sounds like a smoke screen to me. <G> Since no = one else commented on the good Capt=92s words am I the only who thought = that he was referring to his fellow sashayer or peregrinators as "some = jerk" when they read his post for the first time?=20 Humbly WY ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C041BF.EF8B0BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1252"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4207.2601" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>"Jerk" is vernacular for "jerky". Since it was in = the same=20 sentence and connected with "parched corn" as it was I though all would=20 understand. With the addition of a <G> for "Grin" in place one is = also to=20 take the passage as presented in all good natured fun rather than as a = "cut" at=20 anyone for their timidity or lack of drive in "just doing it". My = partners know=20 I do not consider them "jerks" nor they I, lest we would not keep each = others=20 company. Now that that is straightened out.............<VBG> I=20 remain.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YMOS</DIV> <DIV>Capt. Lahti'</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black">From:=20 <A title=3Dleona3@favorites.com = href=3D"mailto:leona3@favorites.com">Wynn &=20 Gretchen Ormond</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A = title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Thursday, October 26, = 2000 8:50=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: MtMan-List: Bossloper=20 Experiences</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Earlier this week Capt Lahti wrote: What traveling expenses? Driving out of town and walking off into = the woods=20 for a few days with some jerk and parched corn? Or without? And just = living=20 off the land? Sounds like a smoke screen to me. <G> Since no one = else=20 commented on the good Capt=92s words am I the only who thought that he = was=20 referring to his fellow sashayer or peregrinators as "some jerk" when = they=20 read his post for the first time? Humbly WY</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C041BF.EF8B0BC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences Date: 29 Oct 2000 16:03:47 -0800 Not that I haven't stuck my foot in my mouth and said what I meant where others should not have heard it, <G> Thanks Rick for suspecting the truth of the matter. I actually left off the "Y" on purpose and had a fleeting thought that it would read wrong but left it anyway. It is important to throw in a Grin or LOL once in a while to let folks know your state of mind. Thanks for the backup Rick. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 10:07 AM > > > I think the good captain left off the letter y from his post. I believe he > meant to say "...some jerky and parched corn...". > > On the Heely-- > Rick > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes Date: 29 Oct 2000 16:07:37 -0800 Great in size perhaps but then we have Brothers who trod a heavier track than me and not just in mass either <G>. I'll wait for others to advise you on how to survive a NW winter "jaunt" with some "Jerk" and some "parched corn" and then I'll let you in on my secrets. <G> Capt. Lahti' PS. Took first place this weekend up Elk Creek in a friendly little trail walk. Gun shoots straight so it must be me that missed that elk. <G> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes Date: 29 Oct 2000 21:15:01 EST In a message dated 10/29/00 4:00:01 PM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << PS. Took first place this weekend up Elk Creek in a friendly little trail walk. Gun shoots straight so it must be me that missed that elk. <G> >> WoooHoooo! I figured you just had a minor seizure on that elk...good to see you're back up to speed! <G> << I'll wait for others to advise you on how to survive a NW winter "jaunt" >> Not too many replies on the capote, but they are in line with what you have suggested in the past, I believe. I think I'll get a Nor'wester from NWTraders.... the style is on the lines of a great coat, and does have a hood, which I like. ....and no fringe. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks for all the advice on braintanning Date: 29 Oct 2000 21:55:56 EST Ho Camp, I want to thank everyone out there who offered advice and personal experiences with braintanning. As usual, I have learned that books and websites only get you started and Lady Experience takes over from there. Several of you offered advice that helped me to avoid some mistakes that may have ruined the process (I don;t know for sure as this is my first attempt)! At any rate, I really appreciate the feedback and great advice! I will let you guys know how it turns out! With much appreciation, -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes Date: 29 Oct 2000 09:12:56 -0700 Magpie, I made my capote from a horse blanket, Whitney. I used the Canoe Capote pattern option. It has a collar/cape over a cape, no hood. It hangs just low enough to cover my but. No fringe, or frills. Double + coverage on my neck and shoulders. I just belt it closed at this point, but am considering some buttons up the front. There is enough coat to keep one warm with this design, but not alot left over to hang in the fire, etc.... My 2 cents. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 22:32:20 -0600 Date: 29 Oct 2000 21:31:04 -0700 Ho the list Without my knowledge virtually my entire Favorites list of web pages and = links was deleted. It would be a big favor to me if anyone so inclined = would post me OFF LIST at rat@htcomp.net with a short list of their = favorite sites. This would help me tremendously in rebuilding my list. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: don't ask ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes Date: 29 Oct 2000 18:04:50 -0700 "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> wrote: >>The simpler the better from a historical point of view. No cloth or leather fringe. No tassels or streamers from the hood. Originals made by the voyagers were tailored in the sleeves. Most had buttons of some sort.<< I agree with Larry completely, except for the buttons. Early capotes (say before 1821) seem to have usually been buttonless; instead, they were closed by a sash (NOT a belt made from blanketing), and a button or gunworm at the neck. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: art! Date: 30 Oct 2000 14:59:37 -0700 Angela, This last week I went to see the new promotion at the Denver Art Museum (DAM). The new exhibit, "Painters and the American West" was great. Seen some Tait, Miller and others whic I hadn't seen before. The one which struck me as unusual was a Miller (big- probably 6' by 8') called "Indians Provoking an Attack". The picture makes your eyes center on two people in the center of it. "Antione" and I forget if it is either Miller himself or Stewart. The curator says on the wall notes and elsewhere brings out how Miller was inflenced by earlier and more romantic art forms. And points this out with this picture and others. Have you seen the picture? What is your opinion on this? mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Influences of Alfred Jacob Miller Date: 30 Oct 2000 20:50:52 EST Miller was influenced by European Romanticism. He had studied in Europe, specifically Pais and Rome prior to the time Captain Stewart found him in New Orleans. He was known as the American Raphael. He was highly influenced by painters such as Delacroix. Is this enough information for you, or need I go on? Laura Jean ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Date: 30 Oct 2000 23:36:01 EST Hallo the List, Does anyone know of a good book or two on Wilson Price Hunt? I know he was Astor's field marshal in the founding of Astoria, and leader of the overland Astorians in 1811. My interest is in that journey. Also, how come the AMM, NW Brigade, Wilson Price Party isn't called the "Wilson Price Hunt" Party? <G> Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Date: 30 Oct 2000 21:57:54 -0700 You can read Hunt's own account of this journey: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/wphunt.html At 11:36 PM 10/30/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Hallo the List, > >Does anyone know of a good book or two on Wilson Price Hunt? I know he was >Astor's field marshal in the founding of Astoria, and leader of the overland >Astorians in 1811. My interest is in that journey. > >Also, how come the AMM, NW Brigade, Wilson Price Party isn't called the >"Wilson Price Hunt" Party? <G> > >Ymos, >Magpie > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Date: 30 Oct 2000 21:04:03 -0800 Astoria, by Washington Irving. Available through Barnes and Noble and other fine book stores. It is the Wilson Price Hunt Party. Put both your hearing aids in and pay attention. <G> Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 8:36 PM > Hallo the List, > > Does anyone know of a good book or two on Wilson Price Hunt? I know he was > Astor's field marshal in the founding of Astoria, and leader of the overland > Astorians in 1811. My interest is in that journey. > > Also, how come the AMM, NW Brigade, Wilson Price Party isn't called the > "Wilson Price Hunt" Party? <G> > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Date: 30 Oct 2000 21:19:19 -0800 Roger Lahti wrote: > It is the Wilson Price Hunt Party. Put both your hearing aids in and pay > attention. <G> Well.... at least I know which pilgrim will be digging the next set of latrines for the Wilson Price Hunt party <G> Snicker. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Date: 30 Oct 2000 22:09:47 -0800 > Well.... at least I know which pilgrim will be digging the next set of latrines > for the Wilson Price Hunt party <G> Pilgrim? Hah! Over my dead body! Latrine digger or no! You got a shovel you can loan him Lee? <G> Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Dean Rudy Date: 31 Oct 2000 01:31:14 EST Mr. Rudy: I never see much of you on this list, but, Sir, I want to thank you for your vision in founding it. In founding "all of us." This list is a priceless fountain of perspectives, history, bias, and inspiration. I hope to meet you one day. Just missed you by a couple of days on Dry Cottonwood Creek in Wyoming, in 1999. Wasn't that THE view? My God, why did any one venture farther than the Grand Tetons? Looking forward to the day, Laura Rugel Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Date: 31 Oct 2000 05:49:16 -0700 Magpie, You can also find him listed in "Names of People in the Fur Trade" at Dean's web site. I think 6 or seven books mention him. The references range from a brief mention to in and out of complete books. mike. SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Hallo the List, > > Does anyone know of a good book or two on Wilson Price Hunt? I know he was > Astor's field marshal in the founding of Astoria, and leader of the overland > Astorians in 1811. My interest is in that journey. > > Also, how come the AMM, NW Brigade, Wilson Price Party isn't called the > "Wilson Price Hunt" Party? <G> > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Date: 31 Oct 2000 10:11:25 EST In a message dated 10/30/00 9:20:00 PM, bluethistle@potlatch.com writes: << Well.... at least I know which pilgrim will be digging the next set of latrines for the Wilson Price Hunt party <G> >> LOL.... You know, I could use some help arounds these boys, Lee! The last "challenge" I had was rootin through some briar patches (ouch) trying to push some pheasant to Capt Lahti...<G> Who thinks up these challenges anyhow!!!??! <VVBG> Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Date: 31 Oct 2000 10:33:19 EST In a message dated 10/30/00 8:58:45 PM, drudy@xmission.com writes: << You can read Hunt's own account of this journey: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/wphunt.html >> Dean, Outstanding! ..... I didn't know his diary even existed. Can you tell me if it is copied word for word, or selected excerpts ....and also, where is the "original" journal located? Thanks.... you've got a great archive there and I'll use it more often. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Large Tipis Date: 31 Oct 2000 10:46:35 EST Hallo the List, In Wilson Price Hunt's diary, he mentions the Cheyenne Indians having large teepees made of buffalo hides and.... "they often hold as many as fifty people". I was of the belief that most buffalo hide teepees were rather small because of the weight. Just how large of a teepee would be needed to hold 50 people? This may be a good question for you Linda Holley.... I've seen 15 kids in my 20ft lodge, and that looked rather full.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis Date: 31 Oct 2000 16:56:49 -0800 I have had as many as 39 adults in an 18' tipi. Now we were not sleeping together mind you, but it was a great closeness. Also, that could have been two lodges put together as they sometimes did. There are old drawings of this and photos. I could see a large 20 or 22 out of hides. But it would be a "girl dog" to set up. SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Hallo the List, > > In Wilson Price Hunt's diary, he mentions the Cheyenne Indians having large > teepees made of buffalo hides and.... "they often hold as many as fifty > people". I was of the belief that most buffalo hide teepees were rather small > because of the weight. > > Just how large of a teepee would be needed to hold 50 people? This may be a > good question for you Linda Holley.... I've seen 15 kids in my 20ft lodge, > and that looked rather full.... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Date: 31 Oct 2000 19:26:21 -0700 Magpie (SWcushing@aol.com) wrote: >>Does anyone know of a good book or two on Wilson Price Hunt? I know he was Astor's field marshal in the founding of Astoria, and leader of the overland Astorians in 1811. My interest is in that journey.<< The best book I've read (okay, the only book I've read) about Astoria was James P. Ronda's _Astoria and Empire_ (University of Nebraska Press, 1990). It's full of detailed information about every aspect of Astoria, from its founding to its sale to the NW Co. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Date: 31 Oct 2000 22:38:58 EST In a message dated 10/31/00 6:32:06 PM, agottfre@telusplanet.net writes: << The best book I've read (okay, the only book I've read) about Astoria was James P. Ronda's _Astoria and Empire_ (University of Nebraska Press, 1990). >> Thanks Angela, I'm half way through his journal in Dean's archive.... they sure took a wippin over along the Snake. I'll get the book you mention, and Irving's "Astoria". Very good reading.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Date: 31 Oct 2000 21:44:47 -0700 At 10:33 AM 10/31/2000 -0500, Magpie wrote (regarding WP Hunt's journal): >Can you tell me if it is copied word for word, or selected excerpts >....and also, where is the >"original" journal located? As far as I know, this is the entire journal. It was published very early in a French publication, and reprinted many times over the years, but I don't know what happened to the original manuscript. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Dean Rudy Date: 31 Oct 2000 21:54:37 -0700 Thanks for the good words, and glad to hear you find the list useful. It does sometimes have its problems, but by and large there's been a lot of good stuff. The trick is just finding time to absorb the info that is out there. Anyway, I'm sure I'll see you somewheres in the mountains one of these days! -Dean At 01:31 AM 10/31/2000 -0500, Laura wrote: >Mr. Rudy: > >I never see much of you on this list, but, Sir, I want to thank you for your >vision in founding it. In founding "all of us." This list is a priceless >fountain of perspectives, history, bias, and inspiration. I hope to meet you >one day. Just missed you by a couple of days on Dry Cottonwood Creek in >Wyoming, in 1999. Wasn't that THE view? My God, why did any one venture >farther than the Grand Tetons? > >Looking forward to the day, > >Laura Rugel Glise > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Moving to Alberta, Canada Date: 01 Nov 2000 00:05:54 EST A fellow AMM brother is leaving for Alberta Canada, near Edmonton (4 hrs from Jasper) this week. He would like to contact any other AMM members in that area. At the present moment he is without computer access until settled and has asked me to help him out. If you, or someone you know lives in this area, please contact me directly. Thanks! Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Dean Rudy Date: 31 Oct 2000 21:44:54 -0800 My God, why did any one venture > >farther than the Grand Tetons? Miss Laura Jean, Well I can't argue that the view was Grand but to answer your rhetorical question <G>........... To gaze down into the Grand Canyon of the Snake, to stand at the foot of the Blue Mountains looking west and know you face a real desert and a real mountain range still to cross before you taste the salt of the Great Western Ocean, to stand at the entrance of the Columbia River Gorge with Hood towering down from above, to see the mist flow over the Goat Rocks at evening (or morning), to stand on a high precipice in the Cascades and look the length of them as one Great Volcano after another rises to touch Heaven Itself, to sail Puget Sound and look up at Mount Rainier or see the sun set the Olympics on fire at dawn, or set behind them at dusk, or stand on the headlands at the mouth of the Mighty Columbia looking out to sea at swells who's journey of 2000 miles has caused them to grow beyond belief, to maneuver your cedar Indian canoe through those swells and return to land alive. Other than that, I can't think of a single reason to venture beyond the Grand Tetons. <G> I remain as always....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > >Looking forward to the day, > > > >Laura Rugel Glise > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html