Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Congrats Buck
Date: 02 Sep 2000 17:30:57 -0700
On Thu, 31 August 2000, Jon Marinetti wrote:
> On your new job and also that you'll be researching along with your
> longtime buddy from the days of youth. good to hear you two are on the
> same team.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> from Michigan
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jon,
Buck is out of town this week with his work during the day, and checking on some items from a dig near Washington, MO during the evening hours. He will be visiting Crosby Brown, local historian and retired Historian for Missouri. Mr. Brown has been working our (the lists) time period for most of his life with different state and personal projects, has written many articles and documents on the fur trade along the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers. Think Buck will have an excellent information gathering experience with his old friend.
Oh, an article that was written by Buck, "Success in the Fur Trade" has been selected by the Historical Society (museum newletter) and may end up being article of the year among these folks, pretty cool and he doesn't know about this as he's not on the internet to receive the word, while out of town.
Thank you for the kind words, know he'll agree jon.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark
Date: 03 Sep 2000 10:27:09 -0700
Frank,
Thank you for the the support, of the five of us Buck still gets the most upset about the way things are done with these different groups, in fact he has damn near wore us out. I told him after this last outing and the way we where to do things according to the director, that I'll pass on the next one. Doing events correctly has to be the same objective of all involved, not just a handfull - the hard core reenactors work themselves into a lather and end up not enjoying the reenactment.
Concho.
On Sat, 02 September 2000, "Frank V. Rago" wrote:
> I really respect you gents who try to make things as realistic as possible.
> I am one of those butt heads who, when watching the different shows on
> history pick apart what is wrong. Most people who watch really do not know
> what they are looking at.
>
> Keep up the good work.
>
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark
Date: 03 Sep 2000 10:27:09 -0700
Frank,
Thank you for the the support, of the five of us Buck still gets the most upset about the way things are done with these different groups, in fact he has damn near wore us out. I told him after this last outing and the way we where to do things according to the director, that I'll pass on the next one. Doing events correctly has to be the same objective of all involved, not just a handfull - the hard core reenactors work themselves into a lather and end up not enjoying the reenactment.
Concho.
On Sat, 02 September 2000, "Frank V. Rago" wrote:
> I really respect you gents who try to make things as realistic as possible.
> I am one of those butt heads who, when watching the different shows on
> history pick apart what is wrong. Most people who watch really do not know
> what they are looking at.
>
> Keep up the good work.
>
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark
Date: 04 Sep 2000 09:22:53 -0700
> Frank,
>
> Thank you for the the support, of the five of us Buck still gets the most
> upset about the way things are done with these different groups, in fact he
> has damn near wore us out.......
> Doing events correctly has to be the same objective of all involved,
> not just a handfull - the hard core reenactors work themselves into a lather..
>
> Concho.
>
> Hi Concho,
>
> This is what I am talking about. I have walked away from opportunity
> because they did not care if it was portrayed right. And most groups fail
> to act together when it comes to money on the spot.........
>
> Walt
Hey Walt,
When they realize, if they ever do - maybe we can make a difference in the way things are done in this industry. In "Black Robe", "The Mountain Men", "Centennial" and "Son of Morning Star", along with a few others they used folks like Jerry Crandall, Kathy Smith and Jerry Farenthalt for clothing, advise and general knowledge (only bits and pieces where taken and used), but is was a start. Now Mark Baker has had a chance at this roll in a couple of movies, again small amounts of advise where used, still a start in the right direction. Like you say a couple hundred a day will change many folks mind.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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will take you to what they have listed for Miller. Do any of the titles sound
familiar?
Manbear
--------------18BD8DBDB9558D8EA2A81B0F
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly
standard hardback size,
<br>not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a
paragraph
<br>or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy,
in my
<br>friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial
resource
<br>and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the
exact
<br>title.
<br>Pat Quilter.
<br> </blockquote>
I checked out Bibliofind and the following link <a href="http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/search.html?dealerid=&qauthor=&qtitle=Alfred+Jacob+Miller&qcomments=&minp=&maxp=&daysback=at+any+date&SUBMIT1=SEARCH">http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/search.html?dealerid=&qauthor=&qtitle=Alfred+Jacob+Miller&qcomments=&minp=&maxp=&daysback=at+any+date&SUBMIT1=SEARCH</a>
will take you to what they have listed for Miller. Do any of the
titles sound familiar?
<br>Manbear
<br>
<br> </html>
--------------18BD8DBDB9558D8EA2A81B0F--
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Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern et
Date: 06 Sep 2000 18:55:08 EDT
The book is called "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller". It is out of print but not too difficult to find in the used circles. I think they usually run about $75 for a decent copy but the notes on each picture are worth much more than that. I'm at work. When I get home, I
'll provide more info on the book.
Patrick Surrena
AMM 1449
Jim Baker Party, Colorado
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> Guess you'd better work on the calluses <g>, guys in our party have
> regularly rode with breeches and leggins for extended rides. They swear by
> it (not at it)!
>
> For trapping, there's no doubt that breeches are the way to go, at least out
> here in the Rocky's where it gets mighty cold.
>
> Take care and good luck on the trap lines!
>
> Allen
>
> >I do not argue the merits of leggings in trapping and working, they are quite
> >comfortable and much cooler than pants. I do dispute the riding part....
> it sucks after just a short while in the saddle, but perhaps this lad just needs
> more padding or more calluses...... not sure which <G>.
> >
> >Regards from North Idaho
> >
> >Lee Newbill
Lee,
An article that Buck conner wrote on Marion Medina's breeches in one of the Tomahawk 7 long rifles had some interesting advise from those that wore them to Wes Houser and Charles Hanson; See Below:
Both Wes and Charlie have agreed that if your in freezing water up to your knees, that the
breeches or short pantaloons are by far the most practical. They will dry faster and be less of a
problem than a pair of long pants in cloth or leather, plus its easier to slip on wool socks, leggings
or wrap your lower leg area once on shore, than wear wet clothing that would freeze before
getting dry in trapping weather.
I have read of trappers, travelers and adventures stopping to remove their leg coverings to cross
streams and creeks in their daily routines as they worked or moved across this country. One
account tells of several travelers being way laid as they were putting on their wool socks and
footwear after crossing a stream, the robbers took those items along with their other goods
leaving them to suffer with bare skin and freezing conditions. Read another account of trappers
using leather uppers coming down to the knee with blanket sewed on at this point to cover the
lower leg and calf area, several of the re-enacters and brothers of the AMM have worn this
arrangement for years and claim the blanket dries very quickly.
Believe artice is on the AMM JIM BAKER PARTY web site.
Concho.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Here's an interesting little item written years ago on tobacco by an old friend, add what you know to it, if you will.
TOBACCO IN NORTH AMERICA
by Roy S. Boyer, Sr.
Published 1951; Pennsylvania Outdoors
Most of the Indian tribes in what is now the United States and southern Canada grew and used tobacco in daily use. As the influence of the European moved over the country-side, native tobaccos were gradually replaced by South American varieties. By the 19th century, processed tobacco had become an extremely important commodity.
The common native tobacco found in the eastern United States and southwestern Canada was Nicotiana
rustica, a large plant with yellow flowers. First found in the Virginia settlements and introduced in
Europe.
Nicotiana attenuata, was found in the western half of the United States and parts of southwestern Canada.
It is reported to being growing wild in some of these areas today.
Nicotiania miltivaluis, was grown by the Crow and Shoshoni, along with several other tribes in Oregon,
Idaho and western Montana.
Nicotiania Bigelovii, was grown in California in several different varieties.
Nicotiania quadrivalvis, a small plant only 2 feet high with white flowers and small leaves was found
with the Mandan, Arikara, Hidatsa, Omaha and Pawnee tribes.
Nicotiana tabacum, originally native to South America is most likely what is found in the late 19th
century through-out the United States and southern Canada and seen a lot today.
The Spaniards began growing tobacco in the first part of the 16th century, as were the new settlers in
southern New York and Pennsylvania in the 1650Æs. With some research you will find that the tobacco
business was a good cash crop that the local governors of the colonies and later states were quite involved in, building large warehouses to store and dry this valuable resource. While others involved in the business were moving it through areas that were not watched as closely as others, voiding heavy taxes on their product.
Many of the traders would work with the growers to move the rolls of tobacco into French territory and
the trade of furs among those trappers. The history of tobacco, Native Americans and various periods of
our countries growth, the Fur Trade , etc. can fill a book shelf.
************************
Concho.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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On Fri, 08 September 2000, "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" wrote:
> My assumption to this point is that a mountaineer with ties to Spain would
> likely have a bota style legging. Ones with ties to western tribes may take on
> that higher up, slanting over the hip. While a trapper with leaning to more half
> breed/ eastern tribe or maybe even French would have a just over the knee and
> tied around the leg style.
Your assumptions are agreeable for styles of leg coverings, there will always be some that have other ideas, but what you have stated is well documentated and would think this discussion is closed.
What would be another good item to kick the crap out of ! How about swords in the fur trade or length of knives in comparsion to the earlier "long hunter" types of blade ?
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Sitting hear reading the Sunday paper and found in the "Parade" section somethings interesting that we read on this list a whlie back. Referring to the e-mail about a story Paul Harvey had on his radio program. The one about a young man grossly beaten and disfugured until a priest arranged free plastic surgery, it said the man was Mel Gibson - this was during the release of his new movie "The Patriot".
Paul Harvey was asked about the story and heres his reply; "A distorted story about Mel Gibson is being credited to my radio broadcast," Harvey says. "Don't believe everything on the Internet." This was not a true event.
Later.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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> Length of knives, I like that. I have seen and played with several great
> examples of BIG knives from the RMFT era.......
Dennis,
I have seen the work you did for Buck and have to agree that you make one fine, strong knife. Buck has told me about the knife you just mentioned, said he needed to move some of his original and fancy reproduction knives, then he would have you make him one to replace other items carried in camp mess.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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On Sun, 10 September 2000, Randal J Bublitz wrote:
>
> I have a knife marked 1825. I bought it my first AMM National Rdvs
> (Henry's Fork). I put the 1825 date on it, as this was the site of the
> first Randavoos. This is my memento from the rdvs. My point is, just
> because it has numerals on it, doesn't mean they were put there at that
> point in time. Respectfully, hardtack
>
> ----------------------
Sorry to keep using Mr. Conner's name, he is not back in town yet or I would think we would have heard from him by now. Anyway he has a small collection (15-20) of early fur trade knives, most given to him as birthday gifts from Charles E. hanson, Jr. and like Dennis mentioned the blades show much use as well as the handles, granted Hanson had some that where in mint condition at the museum, but in that condition they bring big money and have documentation on them. Most of the knives mentioned don't have dates, dating is done by pin arrangement in handle and style of writing, markings, etc.on knife blade.
Another brother of the AMM, Ken "Quill" Smith had a great collection of Green River and Wilson knives that he and his brother had been collecting for 25 plus years, don't know if he is still on this list, answer up "Quill".
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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> > What percentage of trappers do you think carried a compass? Perhaps
> > percentage is not the right word . . . could one say most some few
>
> Ms. Laura Jean,
>
> I would venture to suggest that it was very few if any. I have no evidence
> one way or the other. As a practical matter, I don't see the need nor the
> mention of them being used by other than serious exploratory or survey
> Parties/Expeditioins. Same with many other fancy accutraments available to
> the civilized and cultured gentelman of the era.
> My opinion of course. I remain....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
_________________________________________
Capt.,
I have seen information at museums showing the use on compasses after the L&C journey, because of the Jefferson's letters talking about locations in degrees or setting according to a compass. Maybe that made them fashionable or folks more interested in map making as he (Jefferson) was in to that type of thing. In Reading PA at Boone's family place they have one of his compasses, of course that was his livelyhood. Bridger and Medina carried compasses when doing the westward movement think, library in Loveland CO had an old picture of Medina showing his pocket watch and a compass (of course he was very late fur trade).
Hope this helps, but the folks mentioned where above the average bear per say, most probably couldn't afford ball and powder, no less a compass that they didn't know how to work.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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> Maybe it wasn't used that much, but it is something to look at.
> And as with every thing on E-Bay.... "Caveat Emptor "
> D
_____________________________
Dennis,
Remember the article Buck wrote about the French trade knive he wanted to buy and got talked out of it, that's an interesting article that would fit into this subject, is it on the AMM Baker site !
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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That article was written by Buck Conner's grandfather in the 1940's, met him once - he was a walking history book, him and Hanson would have made a pair with their knowledge. Saved several of Mr. Boyer's articles on Native American's as well as handling one's self in tuff situtations (he was a US Marshall, then a game warden in PA).
Later.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question - mystic symbols on guns
Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:48:42 -0700
On Sat, 09 September 2000, "Pavel Grund" wrote:
I have interest of mystic symbols in relation to guns. In Europe are known diverse superstition and
> rituals, in America, as far as I know, mainly diferent symbols. Knows everybody how amount have diferent symbols and in what times and teritory was used..........
___________________________________________
Pavel,
Go to this URL; half way through the article on tradeguns is a picture of maker marks, proof marks, etc., this may help you understand what your looking at.
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/weapons.htm
Later.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question - mystic symbols on guns
Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:49:11 -0700
On Sat, 09 September 2000, "Pavel Grund" wrote:
I have interest of mystic symbols in relation to guns. In Europe are known diverse superstition and
> rituals, in America, as far as I know, mainly diferent symbols. Knows everybody how amount have diferent symbols and in what times and teritory was used..........
___________________________________________
Pavel,
Go to this URL; half way through the article on tradeguns is a picture of maker marks, proof marks, etc., this may help you understand what your looking at.
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/weapons.htm
Later.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Most of the knives mentioned don't have dates, dating is done by pin arrangement in handle and style of writing, markings, etc.on knife blade.............
WELL I'LL BE DAMN, YOU GOT IT RIGHT, CHARLIE WOULD BE PROUD THAT YOU WHERE LISTENING WHEN HE EXPLAINED THIS TO US MANY YEARS AGO.
> Another brother of the AMM, Ken "Quill" Smith had a great collection of Green River and Wilson knives that he and his brother had been collecting for 25 plus years, don't know if he is still on this list, answer up "Quill".
NOT SURE IF HE STILL ON THE LIST, WILL CHECK WITH HIM ON MONDAY AT WORK, HE DID HAVE OR MAY STILL HAVE A GOOD COLLECTION OF THESE KNIVES.
> In the footsteps of others,
>
> D. L. "Concho" Smith
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I JUST GOT IN FROM A GOOD FACTS FINDING TRIP TO CROSBY BROWN'S IN WASHINGTON MO, STOPPED AT THE MUSEUM AT THE ARCH IN ST. LOUIS, GOT TO GO IN THE ARCHIVES AND LOOK AT SOME NEAT L&C ITEMS, A COMPASS, WRITING EQUIPAGE, CAMP ITEMS, ETC.
LOGGED ON TO SEE WHAT'S GOING ON AND ALL I SEE IS "CONCHO" THIS AND "CONCHO" THAT, YOUR DOING THE OLD WASH WOMAN ON THE FENCE THING AGAIN. DID YOU CALL THE GUY I ASKED YOU TO ON THE FUR TRADE TRUNK LOCKS ?
LAST ISSUE OF MUZZLELOADER IN THE PRODUCTS AREA HAD THE "TRUNK MAN" FROM COLORADO AND A PICTURE OF HIS WARES, RECEIVED ONE LIKE THE PICTURE FROM HIM AND THEY ARE "RIGHT ON", EXCELLENT QUALITY AND VERY PLEASING TO THE EYE, CHECK HIM OUT FOLKS.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
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On Mon, 11 September 2000, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote:
> >Ho the list
> >The attached jpg image is of a knife that I own that has a J.Russell & Co
> Green River Works >logo on the blade with the date 1834 in the center of the
> logo.
>
> http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/russell.jpg
> http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/grw-logo.jpg
>
> Apparently Russell didn't didn't sell any Green River knives until about 1836. >Furthermore, the company probably didn't use the diamond logo before about 1876........
LATER THAN 1876, CLOSER TO THE MID 1880'S.
> Mine is in excellent condition. I also believe that the scales have
> been replaced, but am not sure. They are held on with 5 iron pins and there
> appears to be rust underneath them.........
i HAVE SEVERAL ARTICLES ON THE NUMBER OF PINS (FROM 2 TO 7 PINS, OF WHICH I HAVE ALL THE PIN ARRANGEMENTS, THANKS TO CHARLES HANSON), WILL LOOK FOR THOSE ARTICLES ON THE IRON PINS, THEIR NUMBERS, DATES AND ARRANGEMENTS.
> All the later replicas seemed to have the diamond logo on them and only 3 pins.........
MUCH LATER THAN THE FUR TRADEOR THE CIVIL WAR, MAYBE END OF THE INDIAN WARS.
LATER
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
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______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings & Horse Tack (A Question)
Date: 11 Sep 2000 18:34:23 -0700
On Mon, 11 September 2000, Jon Marinetti wrote:
>
> What did (if at all) the forefathers in the Rocky Mountains use to
> condition, preserve these very important items? tallow? bear grease? wax
> of some kind? a combination of these? i don't recollect that
> neatsfoot oil was invented or discovered yet.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jon,
Have read about the use of rendered buffalo tallow that the Native Americans as well as Europeans used in caring for their leather goods, cookware and greasing their pots and pans when cooking. If kept clean it will last for long periods of time from hot to cold conditions, have used it for at least 20 years with not problems - cooking grease, mocs and leggings grease, patch lube after cleaning gun, rust preventor, sealer for waterproofing the pan, etc.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
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> Dave's knife is obviously older and very well might be 150+ years old. The stamped, inline logo and the 5 pins are good clues. My point in the original post was that trying to date a knife using a date stamped on its blade is a poor method. The date could mean darn near anything or darn near nothing. I have known that my knife is almost certainly not older than ca1875 and is very likely to be no older than about 66 years old. If I were to guess, it is a knife issued to commemorate the J. Russell company's 100th year of business, 1934. No matter, I like the knife and wouldn't sell it for what I have in it....$10.
> YMOS
> Lanney
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lanney and others involved in this conversation,
see: "Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook" by James A. Hanson,
1994-Fur Press, Inc.
Pg 16. [The butcher knife], one of three standard nineteen
century trade knives. Standard pattern of the butcher's
knife and references to it by that name appear after the
Revolutionary war. It has changed little; the older ones do
not have a choil. In fact the blade was usually the same
width as the handle............. [picture].
Pg 17. [The butcher knife], by the end of the nineteenth
century was the only pattern from the fur trade days that
was still in use. Two walnut scales attached with 5 iron
pins. [picture].
This "Green River" dates to the Civil war. The company was
not started until 1834, it did not manufacture knives until
1841. Therefore, no "Green River" knife ever went to a
rendezvous. [picture]. However, by the Civil war, Russell
knives were ubiquitous. Later knives bear a diamond trade
mark. [picture].
[picture] The knife shown here was sold by the Hudson's bay
company, (walnut scales, iron pins) in the first half of
this century. Notice how the later butcher knives have wider
blades, and the choil becomes more pronounced as time
passes.............
Pg 18. [The Rip knife], the peppercorn and diamond trade mark on Wilson
knives dates back to the mid eighteenth century, but the
country origin was not put on items made abroad for the U.S.
market until after 1890...................
Pg 19 [The Skinning knife], English makers in the 1870's (and later) began
marketing all sorts of export utility knives "Green River"
to capitalize on the immense success of John Russell's
"Green River Works' knives after 1850........
These few pages answer most of the questions about the
Russell and Wilson "Green River" style knife, this was just
a sampling of Hanson's information.
Still looking for the original information I wanted to share
on this subject. Get this sketchbook, good reference
material.
Maybe after you review this sketchbook, you'll see how hard it is
to date such a common tool. I'm finding this true with just a simple
item like a trunk lock, all the differences, types of metals, style of
putting them together, etc - the list goes on and on. An example
that I found interesting was the key hole, whether it was lined with brass
or copper makes a ten year difference in dating.
Stll looking for more information, later.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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> Lanney and others involved in this conversation,
>
> see: "Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook" by James A. Hanson,
> 1994-Fur Press, Inc.
>
> Pg 16. [The butcher knife], one of three standard nineteen
> century trade knives. Standard pattern of the butcher's
> knife and references to it by that name appear after the
> Revolutionary war. It has changed little; the older ones do
> not have a choil. In fact the blade was usually the same
> width as the handle............. [picture].
>
> Pg 17. [The butcher knife], by the end of the nineteenth
> century was the only pattern from the fur trade days that
> was still in use. Two walnut scales attached with 5 iron
> pins. [picture].
> This "Green River" dates to the Civil war. The company was
> not started until 1834, it did not manufacture knives until
> 1841. Therefore, no "Green River" knife ever went to a
> rendezvous. [picture]. However, by the Civil war, Russell
> knives were ubiquitous. Later knives bear a diamond trade
> mark. [picture].
>
> [picture] The knife shown here was sold by the Hudson's bay
> company, (walnut scales, iron pins) in the first half of
> this century. Notice how the later butcher knives have wider
> blades, and the choil becomes more pronounced as time
> passes.............
>
> Pg 18. [The Rip knife], the peppercorn and diamond trade mark on Wilson
> knives dates back to the mid eighteenth century, but the
> country origin was not put on items made abroad for the U.S.
> market until after 1890...................
>
> Pg 19 [The Skinning knife], English makers in the 1870's (and later) began
> marketing all sorts of export utility knives "Green River"
> to capitalize on the immense success of John Russell's
> "Green River Works' knives after 1850........
>
> These few pages answer most of the questions about the
> Russell and Wilson "Green River" style knife, this was just
> a sampling of Hanson's information.
>
> Still looking for the original information I wanted to share
> on this subject. Get this sketchbook, good reference
> material.
>
> Maybe after you review this sketchbook, you'll see how hard it is
> to date such a common tool. I'm finding this true with just a simple
> item like a trunk lock, all the differences, types of metals, style of
> putting them together, etc - the list goes on and on. An example
> that I found interesting was the key hole, whether it was lined with brass
> or copper makes a ten year difference in dating.
>
> Stll looking for more information, later.
>
>
> Following our ancestors,
>
> Barry "Buck" Conner
Your back and you beat me to the punch, just finished writing pretty much the same thing on this sketchbook on Windows 98, was getting ready to copy-paste and your message came across, well I guess thanks.
Sounds like you got the information for the troops on the early fur trade trunks, good show.
I'll keep looking for more information on the dating of the pins, blades, etc., remember that article you mentioned and a few done years ago in Buckskin Report.
Later
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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At times have used all of these with very good success and fast results for clearing the shelves, plus you'll get more people with an interest in what you have and not tie up this hist_list.
Good Luck.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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> At times have used all of these with very good success and fast results for clearing the shelves, plus you'll get more people with an interest in what you have and not tie up this hist_list.
>
> Good Luck.
>
>
> Following our ancestors,
>
> Barry "Buck" Conner
Good point, you listed a few I have not tried before, thanks.
Hear your headin' out again according to the little gal that covers for you while your on the road - she said the islands south of Florida ? She mentioned something about looking at items from a sailing ship wreck, now what are you doing !
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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> > At times have used all of these with very good success and fast results for clearing the shelves, plus you'll get more people with an interest in what you have and not tie up this hist_list.
> >
> > Good Luck.
> >
> >
> > Following our ancestors,
> >
> > Barry "Buck" Conner
> ------------------------------------
>
> Good point, you listed a few I have not tried before, thanks.
>
> Hear your headin' out again according to the little gal that covers for you while your on the road - she said the islands south of Florida ? She mentioned something about looking at items from a sailing ship wreck, now what are you doing !
>
>
> In the footsteps of others,
>
> D. L. "Concho" Smith
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
These lists really get attention, and they work; have listed items on Friday afternoon and am sold out by noon on Sunday. That's if it's not main events going on that has pulled many away from the lists.
Yea, headin' south for the Disneyland Cruise, Mrs. wanted to do that one, and I agreed if we could take a few days to visit Capt. John Abbott at his place in the Bamaha's and see his collection of recovered sailing ship items from the hey day of that period. Pretty good deal - she gets what she wants and I get to see the neat stuff from the old ships, looks like a win, win deal. Plus may get to kick one big fat mouse's ass on the way, never did like him - always bad mouthing the other characters, only kidding Dennis and Lanney - he's your hero.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Back East we use to use "Osage Orange", "Cherry" and any "berry" type of tree for good bows, some of the other hardwoods would split if pulled to far when compare to those mention above.
Now in the West we have used again "Osage Orange", "Cherry" and "Hackberry" which seems to work very nicely being a straight grained wood. Have had a "Chokecherry" bow but the couple I have had where old and was afraid to put much strain on them like Walt does. A local bow maker - writer, Ken Wee uses chokecherry a lot, have taken several of his classes and he real braggs about its qualities.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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> Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to
> using it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Allen in Fort Hall country.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We have used swan shot for 30 years, have made it for close to that. Easiest I have found is to use a large serving spoon with holes drilled in the bowl (have to play around with size as the holes will grow smaller with lead gathering around the edges), heat will be another thing that you'll learn to control after a short period of time. Have tried using larger and smaller containers, even a cast iron frying pan(thinking we could make a large amount faster) with 5' angle iron legs on it, with shot passing through a screen half way down to the water bucket (a hell of a mess after a while), the best is due small amounts - it's easier.
The shot acts much different than round shot, lots of tearing, blood wounds, etc. - not like modern shot, poor patterns, touchy for distance, etc. If you want to be period correct use it, if you want game on a regular schedule - use round shot and carry a small bag of swan for the camp fire lectures. Goose Bay Workshops carries swan shot in small pillow ticking bags, if you just want to have some to carry that would be the fastest and easiest way to go.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Trade Chittenden 2 Vol. 1935
Date: 17 Sep 2000 17:59:45 -0400
Ratcliff wrote:
> The Chittenden set is available in paperback for about $25. The set is full of good stuff. Gen. Chittenden was in the Corps of Engineers and laid out the roads in Yellowstone Park.
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Trade Chittenden 2 Vol. 1935
Date: 17 Sep 2000 18:02:58 -0400
Oops! I hit "send" before adding my comment that the set on
Ebay just went for $98. That will buy lot's of other things
after getting the paperback version. Thanks for the tip!
Tom
tom roberts wrote:
> Ratcliff wrote:
>
> > The Chittenden set is available in paperback for about $25. The set is full of good stuff. Gen. Chittenden was in the Corps of Engineers and laid out the roads in Yellowstone Park".
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Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Transportation for mountain men--mules taste
Date: 18 Sep 2000 10:52:34 EDT
When I was doing my research for my book on mountain man, Robert Campbell, I found several comments about eating "young colt with wild onions." I did not find anything about eating mules! However, if one is hungry enough, even iguana would be okay. Actually, mules are more muscular and the marbling one finds with fat in the meat would probably be less in horses than in mules. At least that is what a horse-shoer friend of mine says.
I have not eaten either-- nor, do I have any plans to do so. My wife ate horse in France years ago-- she says that it "did not taste like chicken."
Take care,
Steve
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I recently picked up a copy of Clifford Drury's two books, "The Mountains We
Have Crossed" and "Where Wagons Could Go" for my library. (He has put out one
other which I am trying to find.) They are the letters and dairies of these women.
Very little is known of the ladies you mention who went west in 1840, even their
first names. There are references (I think two very short mentions), one that they
were going west with the caravans and one that they picked up their guide and left)
for that year's rendezvous, but probably only used it as a stopping place. The missioniaries
didn't like the scene they found there and usually once they make connections to go
further westward, did. Mr. Gowans is a well respected writer and I bow to him. But,
I don't feel that they were a major part of the scene that year, by this time (even
if it was the smallest and last of the renedzvous), the trappers and company men
had found that the shine had worn off these "white women". The couples going
west for saving the savages had only one thing on their minds and beside being nice
to who ever helped them, basicly stayed to themselves. In fact, they chalked
up to divine providience helping them through many trials- not to how others had
helped them or the many other people who went through the same thing and lived.
I think the last gathering lasted what- three or four days? And besides being a resting
place, wasn't that big of deal to them or to me that they showed up there.
This may sound very anti-christian, my pounding of them. But even as a christian
today, I would find being around them for any length of time laborious. They were
a different stripe, and even though I belong to the same church (Presbyterian) as
the majority of them, I don't think I would like them. Probably like the rest of you,
these green horns (and they were!) would only receive enough notice to keep them from
injuring themselves or anyone around them and that would be about it. They were a pain
in the neck to the caravans by not wanting to travel on the Sabbath, didn't want stand
guard at night (in fact, they paid others to do it), had trouble with packing and un packing
every day and had to hire men to do it for them all the way west.
Sorry for rambling. I do respect Mr. Gowans and others like him. The missionaries
in 1840 did make to the rendzvous, but they camped away from the main gathering and
didn't stay long. So my opinion is that they don't merit mention on the list. But, just my
opinion.
mike.
Ratcliff wrote:
> Mike
> What is your basis for stating that only 4 white women attended a rendezvous? Fred Gowan's book "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" says that many on your list, all missionary's wives, attended the following rendezvous:
> 1840 Mrs Harvey Clark
> Mrs P. B. Littlejohn
> Mrs Alvin T. Smith
> 1839: Mrs John S Griffith
> Mrs Asahel Munger
> 1838 Mrs. W H Gray
> Mary Richardson Walker (Mrs Elkanah Walker)
> Myra Fairbanks Eells (Mrs Cushing Eells)
> Sarah Gilbert White Smith (Mrs Asa B. Smith)
> 1836 Narcissa Whitman (Mrs Marcus Whitman)
> Eliza Spaulding (Mrs Henry Spaulding)
> Does Gowan's book inaccurately place these women at rendezvous, and if that is the case, were these missionaries simply traveling on their own hook, bound for Oregon? Much of Gowan's information is based on diaries of those in the rendezvous caravans and has been commonly accepted as factual. I would be very interested in your comments.
> YMOS
> Lanney Ratcliff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Moore" <amm1616@earthlink.net>
> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:23 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't)
>
> > Sorry guys,
> > I wrote one line which I should clarify,
> > the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the
> > rendezvous too, so there were actually four that
> > went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two).
> > I tend to treat this form of communication different
> > than when I put out info for other things, like articles,
> > rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll
> > try to proof read and think more in depth on things like
> > this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys
> > didn't catch it and rouse me about it.
> > mike.
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't)
Date: 21 Sep 2000 22:31:46 -0600
Lanney,
I agree. Today, we boast about a week long horse ride or a canoe trip
that lasts 10 days, but it would be hard to match 2 1/2 or 3 months riding
side saddle, living in leaky tents and having diarrhia from buffalo country
clear to Oregon!
mike.
Ratcliff wrote:
> Mike
> I can concur with your position, in that most of the missionary women most likely took little or no real part of the rendezvous. The little reading I have done on the subject seems to indicate that Narcissa Whitman was very friendly and outgoing. Little is said about the others, except that some were scandalized by what they saw. We can't withhold our admiration of their grit. Even in the context of a "closed" group heading west for the purpose of supporting their husbands' job of saving souls, these women had enough bark on to make journey that few enough modern men would dare make.
> YMOS
> Lanney
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Moore" <amm1616@earthlink.net>
> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 10:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't)
>
> > Lanney,
> > I recently picked up a copy of Clifford Drury's two books, "The Mountains We
> > Have Crossed" and "Where Wagons Could Go" for my library. (He has put out one
> > other which I am trying to find.) They are the letters and dairies of these women.
> > Very little is known of the ladies you mention who went west in 1840, even their
> > first names. There are references (I think two very short mentions), one that they
> > were going west with the caravans and one that they picked up their guide and left)
> > for that year's rendezvous, but probably only used it as a stopping place. The missioniaries
> > didn't like the scene they found there and usually once they make connections to go
> > further westward, did. Mr. Gowans is a well respected writer and I bow to him. But,
> > I don't feel that they were a major part of the scene that year, by this time (even
> > if it was the smallest and last of the renedzvous), the trappers and company men
> > had found that the shine had worn off these "white women". The couples going
> > west for saving the savages had only one thing on their minds and beside being nice
> > to who ever helped them, basicly stayed to themselves. In fact, they chalked
> > up to divine providience helping them through many trials- not to how others had
> > helped them or the many other people who went through the same thing and lived.
> > I think the last gathering lasted what- three or four days? And besides being a resting
> > place, wasn't that big of deal to them or to me that they showed up there.
> > This may sound very anti-christian, my pounding of them. But even as a christian
> > today, I would find being around them for any length of time laborious. They were
> > a different stripe, and even though I belong to the same church (Presbyterian) as
> > the majority of them, I don't think I would like them. Probably like the rest of you,
> > these green horns (and they were!) would only receive enough notice to keep them from
> > injuring themselves or anyone around them and that would be about it. They were a pain
> > in the neck to the caravans by not wanting to travel on the Sabbath, didn't want stand
> > guard at night (in fact, they paid others to do it), had trouble with packing and un packing
> > every day and had to hire men to do it for them all the way west.
> > Sorry for rambling. I do respect Mr. Gowans and others like him. The missionaries
> > in 1840 did make to the rendzvous, but they camped away from the main gathering and
> > didn't stay long. So my opinion is that they don't merit mention on the list. But, just my
> > opinion.
> > mike.
> >
> > Ratcliff wrote:
> >
> > > Mike
> > > What is your basis for stating that only 4 white women attended a rendezvous? Fred Gowan's book "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" says that many on your list, all missionary's wives, attended the following rendezvous:
> > > 1840 Mrs Harvey Clark
> > > Mrs P. B. Littlejohn
> > > Mrs Alvin T. Smith
> > > 1839: Mrs John S Griffith
> > > Mrs Asahel Munger
> > > 1838 Mrs. W H Gray
> > > Mary Richardson Walker (Mrs Elkanah Walker)
> > > Myra Fairbanks Eells (Mrs Cushing Eells)
> > > Sarah Gilbert White Smith (Mrs Asa B. Smith)
> > > 1836 Narcissa Whitman (Mrs Marcus Whitman)
> > > Eliza Spaulding (Mrs Henry Spaulding)
> > > Does Gowan's book inaccurately place these women at rendezvous, and if that is the case, were these missionaries simply traveling on their own hook, bound for Oregon? Much of Gowan's information is based on diaries of those in the rendezvous caravans and has been commonly accepted as factual. I would be very interested in your comments.
> > > YMOS
> > > Lanney Ratcliff
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mike Moore" <amm1616@earthlink.net>
> > > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:23 PM
> > > Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't)
> > >
> > > > Sorry guys,
> > > > I wrote one line which I should clarify,
> > > > the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the
> > > > rendezvous too, so there were actually four that
> > > > went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two).
> > > > I tend to treat this form of communication different
> > > > than when I put out info for other things, like articles,
> > > > rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll
> > > > try to proof read and think more in depth on things like
> > > > this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys
> > > > didn't catch it and rouse me about it.
> > > > mike.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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