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From: "Ron Chamberlain" <roncham@ida.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Longtrail (Off Topic) Date: 01 Aug 2000 00:39:53 -0600 Hi all, Please excuse this intrusion to the list. I lost Longtrails (aka Vicki Dinsmore)email. If anyone on the list has it please send to me offlist or have her contact me please. It is regarding some articles of hers on my webpage. Thanks, Ron <(⌐┐⌐)> roncham@ida.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Site update Date: 01 Aug 2000 10:35:35 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BFFBA4.3A425FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I put a couple of new folders on the site, if anyone is interested.=20 Thanks D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BFFBA4.3A425FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D3>I put a couple of new folders on the site, if anyone = is=20 interested. </FONT></DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV> <DIV>D</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"<BR> DOUBLE EDGE=20 FORGE<BR> <A=20 href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> "Knowing how is just the=20 beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BFFBA4.3A425FE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap... Date: 01 Aug 2000 16:10:06 -0500 At 07:53 PM 7/30/2000 -0400, you wrote: >Lately, I've seen some of the cherry trees secreting an amber colored sap, >... ...what can I dissolve the sap in, to make up a glue? > > I believe that you can treat the cherry "pitch" as you would pine pitch, though I have no personal experience with cherry pitch. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:A moment of silence Date: 01 Aug 2000 22:07:03 -0500 May we have a moment of silence in memorium of August 1, 1794? John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john kramer@kramerize.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:A moment of silence Date: 01 Aug 2000 23:58:22 EDT As quite as the list has been tonight John looks like you won't have any problem getting a moment of silence. Here's to you and them back then. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Dugouts on the Clearwater (sorta long) Date: 01 Aug 2000 22:54:38 -0700 Hallo After observing a moment of silence for the Whiskey Rebellion, and hearin= g Mr. C. Coyote state that the list was a mite bit quiet tonight, I thought I'd share an article I just finished for our club's newsletter. One character in this is in the AMM (Vern), another is a strap-hanger (me), a= nd the rest of the characters are just good people dumb enough to get talked into launching down the Clearwater in 2000 pound logs. We begin................... Two Days on the River By Lee Newbill Saturday, 29 July 2000 Started out the day by being picked up by Dave Benson, after waiting a fe= w moments for my coffeepot to perk our some fresh java, we left the Newbill stump ranch and headed south to rendezvous with Vern Illi, Matt Ihm and J= im Baillargeon. Arrived at Vern=92s home place at a little past seven, wher= e we hooked up Dave=92s rig to the B boat (which had been soaking all night to hopefully swell up the fissures). After waiting a bit more to see if any= one else would show, we again pointed our iron horses to the south and headed for Orofino, and the launch site of Ahsahka. Other than the smell of fry= ing brakes on the Kendrick grade, the trip to Ahsahka was pretty uneventful. Arrived Ahsahka at a little past nine, Vern arrived a wee bit after hauli= ng the A boat, which he had fetched from Phil and Glenna Johnston=92s homest= ead amongst the hills above Orofino. Linked up with the rest of the river ra= ts at the boat ramp, George Ball, James Campbell, and Jim =93Borrowed Eyes=94 McCray. The boats were set upon the water, the burlap-covered seats installed, paddles and provisions put on board. After a short safety briefing by water Deputies (Clearwater and Nez Perce), and the event organizers (Canoe Camp Canoe Club), we launched the flotilla of carved wo= od and one Voyager Canoe down river towards Lewiston, some 40 miles and two days down river (more or less). Accompanying the flotilla for safety, we= re the sheriff=92s boats, four jet skis and two larger boats. The A boat crew from front to rear; Matt, George, James, Vern. B boat cr= ew from front to rear; Dave, Lee, Jim M., Jim B. The event started well enough, with the flotilla moving steadily down the river, running the swift water with little problems. Our first hint of trouble came at lunch, when an over amorous canine attempted to French ki= ss the sleeping lips of Jim B, who, in repose, is apparently irresistible to members of the opposite sex. Jim, suffice to say, was less than enthusiastic about the attention. Fortunately, the dog was rescued befor= e it caught any thing, including the toe of Jim=92s poorly aimed moccasin. = At our lunch stop, we also heard the Nez Perce legend of Coyote, who apparen= tly lives in a cave at the bottom of the Big Eddy, a place of rapids and treacherous whirlpools. Back on the river, we encountered no problems until hitting the dreaded B= ig Eddy, site of numerous wettings and the destroyer of dignity. Was today = the day that B boat would make it through? Would Dave Benson lead his fearle= ss crew to victory or disaster? Well, hang in there reader, and we will fin= d out. The A boat was first to shoot the Eddy, it sailed through with beauty and dignity, shipping but little water and rocking the surrounding countrysid= e with the hurrahs of it=92s worthy crew=85 now, it was up to the B boat. = We entered the chute, and gave it our all, immediately finding the center of the white water, which is where we should not have been, of course. Non-the-less, being of brave disposition and limited intelligence, we battled on, slicing through the rollers, and encouraging our sweet craft onward with loving names, none of which are printable, unfortunately. We did fine for most of the rough water, and only experienced a little difficulty towards the end. Now here, dear reader, you may have heard th= at the B boat foundered and rolled, hurling it=92s stalwart crew to the cold hearted mercy of the Clearwater=92s Big Eddy=85. Nothing, dear reader, co= uld be farther from the truth. Here is what really happened, I swear as I live = and breathe. We had successfully negotiated the Big Eddy, with only one or two tiny rollers left before us, when we, the crew of B boat, executed the highly difficult =93Victory Roll=94. Now kids, don=92t try this at home. Only = the most advanced and courageous of dugout experts should attempt to execute this dangerous maneuver. It is related to the =93submarine maneuver=94, previ= ously perfected by the crew of the A boat in =9297=85 Anyway, halfway through o= ur =93Victory Roll=94, a misguided sheriff=92s deputy, no doubt thinking we = had rolled on accident, leaped forward and grabbed the bow rope, immediately kicking in his throttle, which of course put off our timing, and caused immediate and certain catastrophe. So now, we found ourselves in the water, where yours truly immediately fo= und out that his life preserver was having a most difficult time propelling h= im upwards with all his Buckskins and gear on. It=92s a very strange feelin= g floating along under the rollers and looking up at your boat. So, after visiting with Coyote for a spell, I did finally kick my way up, surfacing approximately at the number two position in the boat, looking around, I immediately spied Dave calmly muttering to himself and picking hats, paddles, and sundries out of the water around him. Looking back, I could not see either of the Jim=92s. Then, after a minute or so, up popped Jim McCray=85 =93Hallo Jim=94, I cheerfully called out=85 but Jim, he no answ= er, just spit water at me=85, so I thinks to myself, =93Self, Jim is being downrig= ht rude, but we should give him another chance=94, so I called out again, =93= Hey Jim!=94=85. Jim, he still spits water at me. Then I realized the river w= as down two or three inches, and judging from his popped eyes, heaving breast, an= d total lack of manners, Jim must be the culprit. So I reached out and dru= g him over to the boat, and made him put that water right back into the riv= er where it belonged. About that time Jim B. showed up where he had been hiding behind the boat=85 picking up paddles and hats and sundries. I do= n=92t think either Jim B, or Dave ever got their head wet, but that=92s Ok, cau= se Jim McCray and I made up for it during our visit to Coyote=92s home at th= e bottom. A quick tow to the bank by the deputy, five minutes of bailing, and we we= re on the way again. Total losses; one tin cup (mine, of course), and a wee bit of dignity. One more testy spot where the B boat teetered on the edg= e, coaxed over by sweet words and super human paddling, and we slid into Jim Cook=92s Fir Bluff Canoe Camp, on the north side of the Clearwater. We t= ied up and were soon enjoying a dinner of buffalo meat and corn on the cob before stretching out for the night=85 most excellent reward. One small mystery did develop in that the Clerk=92s hat found it=92s way = some 16 feet up a tree, perfectly positioned hanging from a small broken branch. After some effort and ingenuity, somewhat akin to the psychological experiment where the chimp had to build a stair to get to the banana, the Clerk did retrieve his battered and worn hat, cheered on by the seemingly innocent bystanders, Jim M. and James. The mystery was finally solved wh= en Jim =93Tired Burlap Butt=94 McCray, and James =93I want to be a sea ancho= r=94 Campbell, finally fessed up, but not before I had accused the venerable president, Vernon, of tossing it up there. One of the problems with runn= ing with this crew is that there is never a dearth of suspects in a practical joke. Sunday, 30 July 2000 Awoke to a cloudless sky, that held the promise of a scorching hot day, a promise that was all too soon fulfilled. George Ball had other commitmen= ts, and left us shortly after dawn. James Campbell, being 16 and full of lif= e and recklessness, requested a transfer to the wild lady, or B boat. Jim McCray and myself, being on the wrong side of 40 and battered, both suffe= red ourselves to be transferred to the A boat for the remainder of the day. = We enjoyed a great breakfast courtesy of the Pine Bluff Crew, and were once more on our way. The day was hot, it would have seared the Devil himself, had he shown up. It was later determined that the mercury hit 102 degrees in the valley. Even with a breeze, it did little more than move hot air from one point t= o another. Our last leg of the trip was highly uneventful, and was little more than = a enjoyable float down the river to Lewiston. No mishaps, no disasters, ju= st the sun beating down and the river moving it=92s way steadily to it=92s m= eeting with the River of the West. We stopped for lunch at Spaulding Park, site= of the old Spaulding Mission, where we voted on the awards of the day. The = B boat crew successfully fought off the nomination of the =93It Happens=94 = award by deflecting it upon one of the deputies, who in the process of the two days, had gotten bucked off by his jet ski in the Big Eddy, and had run aground once. It took some fast-talking, but the Clerk=92s gotten good a= t that over the last couple of years. One more gentle leg on the river, and the trip was complete. Boats were pulled and tied down, gear stowed, and the journey home began. Only incident on the homeward journey was the boil-over of Vernon=92s Suburban= on the Kendrick grade, and a suicidal maniac who attempted to pass where no-= one should have ever tried. All=92s well that ends well. We said our good-b= yes at the Illi home place and once more set out on separate trails. We had enjoyed a good two days of brotherhood, shared hardship and the joy of living life to it=92s fullest. Respectfully submitted Lee Newbill Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders N. Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:A moment of silence Date: 02 Aug 2000 01:53:50 -0700 thanks john---not many remember--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Valley <r_rvalley@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:A moment of silence Date: 02 Aug 2000 07:55:12 -0700 John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> writes: May we have a moment of silence in memorium of August 1, 1794? - John... I thought that you all might find this interesting... Taken from "Chronicle of America" ISBN 0-13-133745-9 (p. 212) WHISKEY REBELS GIVE IN - Philadelphia, November 1794 After three months of disregard for the law, threats and near-insurrection, the so-called "whiskey rebels" have laid down their arms. In what had become the gravest test of its ability to enforce the laws of the land, the federal government has apparently emerged victorious. The uprising began in June when farmers in western Pennsylvania and throughout the Appalachians refused to pay the federal excise tax on whiskey. The farmers, whose cheapest way of marketing it is in the form of whiskey, argued that the tax was unfair and excessively high - about 25 percent of the going price for a quart of whiskey. In addition, the farmers said that because of the shortage of hard currency, whiskey often proved to be the only practical medium of exchange. The government, in turn, contended that the tax was equitable and a legitimate source of desperately needed revenue. After giving the rebellious farmers two firm warnings that the government would not tolerate their lawlessness, Commander-in-Chief Washington personally took the field with a force of 12,500 militia men. When the farmers realized their predicament, they dispersed, and the once formidable uprising simply melted away. UNITED STATES, May 1795. Two of 200 "Whiskey Boys" arrested for the 1794 rebellion are convicted of treason. (note: according to the "Chronicle", they were later pardoned.) Ron Valley AMM #1353 - NH ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 09:53:09 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01BFFC67.7718AC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Got a question... I just did me up another bag recently, this time in a = double version with a shot charger attached in between the bags in the = fold.. I think I like it, but we will see during the upcoming Fall & = Winter. My question is: If you had to purchase (or make) your shooting bag all = over again, would it be single or double and what gee gaws or "add-ons" = would you like to attach?? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01BFFC67.7718AC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D3>Got a question... I just did me up another=20 ba</FONT><FONT size=3D2>g </FONT><FONT size=3D3>recently, this time in a = double=20 version with a shot charger attached in between the bags in the = fold.. I=20 think I like it, but we will see during the upcoming Fall &=20 Winter.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> My question is: If you had to purchase (or make) your = shooting=20 bag all over again, would it be single or double and what gee gaws or = "add-ons"=20 would you like to attach??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>D</DIV> <DIV>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"<BR> DOUBLE EDGE=20 FORGE<BR> <A=20 href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> "Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"<BR> DOUBLE EDGE=20 FORGE<BR> <A=20 href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> "Knowing how is just the=20 beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01BFFC67.7718AC80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dugouts on the Clearwater (sorta long) Date: 02 Aug 2000 08:18:03 -0700 Great story Lee. And thanks again for all your help with the AMM Western. I surely do appreciate it. Pretty good helper for not even being a member. <G> I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 10:54 PM Hallo After observing a moment of silence for the Whiskey Rebellion, and hearing Mr. C. Coyote state that the list was a mite bit quiet tonight, I thought I'd share an article I just finished for our club's newsletter. One character in this is in the AMM (Vern), another is a strap-hanger (me), and the rest of the characters are just good people dumb enough to get talked into launching down the Clearwater in 2000 pound logs. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Lee Newbill Date: 02 Aug 2000 11:53:37 -0400 Lee, thanks for sharing your canoe trip. Was very enjoyable, especially the "dug out roll". Tiz a shame such a difficult maneuver was interrupted. Years of perfecting such a dangerous move spoiled by the unknowledgeable. Any chance you will share the coyote that lives under the falls? AGAIN THANKS John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 09:04:46 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BFFC60.B46D86C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My question is: If you had to purchase (or make) your shooting bag = all over again, would it be single or double and what gee gaws or = "add-ons" would you like to attach?? D.=20 My bag is a triple. It has a "dipped" U shape for the bag. There is an = "envelope" pocket just inside the front edge, a wider (bag depth) main = pocket in the middle, and an "envelope pocket" behind the main "central" = pocket that has a higher front edge than the front and middle pokets.=20 I keep my flat tools in the rear most pocket. My ball bag, oil can, = priming horn (when I carry one) and some tow are kept in the center = pocket. The front pocket holds precut patches or wads (if I am shooting = the smooth bore). There is a small pocket on the back of the bag that = holds a tin of fishing gear.=20 I like this bag because it keeps all this stuff segregated well. I can = find what I want without looking or digging too much. If I do like I say = I am going to do and build another couple bags so that I have one for = each gun, they will be close copies of this bag. I have a separate bag for shot gun shooting (commercial brown canvas = job that Cabelas sold) and I have a shot pouch with an Irish spout on it = which I usually carry slung on the front strap of the shot gun bag. I = like this bag for shot gunning. It has three small pouches out front = for different types of wads and a large inner pocket for flask and such = and a smaller inner bag for small items. It would be handier if it were = similarly divided like the bag discribed above. Hope that helps. I = remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BFFC60.B46D86C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> My question is: If you had to purchase (or make) your = shooting bag all over again, would it be single or double and what gee = gaws or=20 "add-ons" would you like to attach??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>D. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My bag is a triple. It has a "dipped" U shape for the bag. There = is an=20 "envelope" pocket just inside the front edge, a wider (bag depth) main = pocket=20 in the middle, and an "envelope pocket" behind the main "central" = pocket that=20 has a higher front edge than the front and middle pokets. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I keep my flat tools in the rear most pocket. My ball bag, oil = can,=20 priming horn (when I carry one) and some tow are kept in the center = pocket.=20 The front pocket holds precut patches or wads (if I am shooting the = smooth=20 bore). There is a small pocket on the back of the bag that holds = a tin of=20 fishing gear. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like this bag because it keeps all this stuff segregated well. = I can=20 find what I want without looking or digging too much. If I do like I = say I am=20 going to do and build another couple bags so that I have one for each=20 gun, they will be close copies of this bag.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a separate bag for shot gun shooting (commercial brown = canvas job=20 that Cabelas sold) and I have a shot pouch with an Irish spout on it = which I=20 usually carry slung on the front strap of the shot gun bag. I = like this=20 bag for shot gunning. It has three small pouches out front for = different=20 types of wads and a large inner pocket for flask and such and a = smaller inner=20 bag for small items. It would be handier if it were similarly divided = like the=20 bag discribed above. Hope that helps. I remain....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YMOS</DIV> <DIV>Capt. Lahti'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BFFC60.B46D86C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 13:04:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BFFC82.3C658F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have made more possibles bags for my person and have yet to make one = that I felt comfortable with. The ones of skin are too frilly, the ones = of leather are just never big enough, the ones of snapper shells are = just too hard so I ended up with this little bag that my wife bought for = me at a yard sale. It is perfect for hunting, small compact, holds just = enough but not too much. Well then I was at a flea market and found what I think is the best bag = I have had yet. It is an upland game bag. Now before ya say it's not = period correct you would want to see it. All leather, no zippers, snaps = or plastic. Big front flap that will be decorated at a later time, it = folds over three compartments. Two big and one canvas, and the canvas = has unraveled and looks like fringe hanging. Inside there are shotgun = shell elastic holders that work great at holding sinew, punch, knife, = and such. Think I found a keeper, well for now and it only cost me 5 bucks. I combine my shooting pouch and possibles bag and this works great. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Miles=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 9:53 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Bag Question Got a question... I just did me up another bag recently, this time in = a double version with a shot charger attached in between the bags in the = fold.. I think I like it, but we will see during the upcoming Fall & = Winter. My question is: If you had to purchase (or make) your shooting bag = all over again, would it be single or double and what gee gaws or = "add-ons" would you like to attach?? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" =20 =20 =20 =20 "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BFFC82.3C658F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have made more possibles bags for my = person and=20 have yet to make one that I felt comfortable with. The ones of = skin are=20 too frilly, the ones of leather are just never big enough, the ones of = snapper=20 shells are just too hard so I ended up with this little bag that my wife = bought=20 for me at a yard sale. It is perfect for hunting, small compact, = holds=20 just enough but not too much.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well then I was at a flea market and = found what I=20 think is the best bag I have had yet. It is an upland game = bag. Now=20 before ya say it's not period correct you would want to see it. = All=20 leather, no zippers, snaps or plastic. Big front flap that will be = decorated at a later time, it folds over three compartments. = Two big=20 and one canvas, and the canvas has unraveled and looks like fringe=20 hanging. Inside there are shotgun shell elastic holders that work = great at=20 holding sinew, punch, knife, and such.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Think I found a keeper, well for now = and it only=20 cost me 5 bucks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I combine my shooting pouch and = possibles bag and=20 this works great.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A href=3D"mailto:deforge1@bright.net" = title=3Ddeforge1@bright.net>Dennis=20 Miles</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 02, = 2000 9:53=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Bag = Question</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3>Got a question... I just did me up another=20 ba</FONT><FONT size=3D2>g </FONT><FONT size=3D3>recently, this time in = a double=20 version with a shot charger attached in between the bags in the = fold.. I=20 think I like it, but we will see during the upcoming Fall &=20 Winter.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> My question is: If you had to purchase (or make) your = shooting bag all over again, would it be single or double and what gee = gaws or=20 "add-ons" would you like to attach??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>D</DIV> <DIV>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"<BR> DOUBLE EDGE=20 FORGE<BR> <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> "Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"<BR> DOUBLE EDGE=20 FORGE<BR> <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> "Knowing how is just the=20 beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BFFC82.3C658F20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 13:22:12 -0400 My question is: If you had to purchase (or make) your shooting bag all over again, would it be single or double and what gee gaws or "add-ons" would you like to attach?? Are you speaking of bags to be used in reenacting, or just for shooting, Dennis? If for reenacting, what time period are you thinking of? It makes a big difference. Does anyone have any documentation for a double bag before the early 19th century? Bob Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net> Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 13:26:17 -0400 Bob, Doesn't really matter.. But I guess we can go from mid-18th to mid 19th C. My curiosity is up & just wondering is most folks change bags as often as I... I went rom leather to hemp, to bark tan, then homespun linen and now the oil tanned double. D And to my "get back to work & quit playing on the computer " critics out there.. I finish filed a bag axe thismorning and hafted it.. Called today a total success and declared the rest of the day a s a local (REAL LOCAL) Hloiday.<G> D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 13:36:18 EDT > I finish filed a bag axe this morning and hafted it.. Dennis, Not familiar with a bag axe. Are you gonna give it to her, or use it on her? <G> TOF ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 13:38:40 -0400 TOF..Wrote: " Not familiar with a bag axe. Are you gonna give it to her, or use it on her? " TOF I will show this to the other half later.. Then you are on your own...<G> D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 14:49:09 -0700 spence---I had some jpgs of an original shooting bag ---a double beavertail with a name and date on the inside flap of the bag believe the date was 1830 something---let me dig thru some of my disks and see if i can find the jpg's and i'll send you a print or two of it---its not in real good condition--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 15:01:51 -0400 Good topic, Dennis. > Doesn't really matter.. But I guess we can go from mid-18th to mid 19th C. The problem is that there was apparently quite a significant change in the bags they used over that period of time. From everything I've been able to find out, bags in the mid-18th century were plain, simple and small. As time went on, they grew larger and more formal, and more whistles and bells were added. Early bags were frequently just a single-pocket bag with a thong type strap, and not more than 7-8 inches wide. The only fancy ones I've seen documentation for were those of some Native Americans, which were beaded and with a large strap of the same. Some white men used similar bags, but not most. After 1800, the bags began to grow larger and things were added to help with maintaining the gun, picks and brushes, measures, etc. As far as I know, the double bag wasn't used in the 18th century, probably not until late in the first quarter of the 19th. Those machine sewn or professionally made bags with decorations on the flap or otherwise, fringes, pockets, etc., were probably pretty late in the 19th. A change which went along with that taking place in the bag was occurring with the horns, too. In mid-18th century the horns were quite large and tended to be fancy, with engraving, carving. Over the succeeding decades, they became smaller and more plain. With this in mind, and assuming it's correct, for my 18th-century reenacting. I use a plain pigskin bag, single pocket, made of one piece of leather and with no decorations, fasteners, etc. With that, I carry a quite large carved horn. When I do a later period, with a Golden Age or early 19th-century type gun, I carry a bag made the same, but it's a double bag. If I'm in the mood to use my plains rifle, I use a larger "D" shaped bag with fringes, antler button fasteners, pockets, etc. Progressively smaller horns match to each type bag. BTW, those "game bags" made of canvas trimmed with leather, with multi-purpose pockets, etc. were used from the middle of the 1900s until late in the percussion period. The same is true of powder dispensing bags or flasks with either the English or Irish type spouts. They are great for use with your percussion double shotguns, but not appropriate for the 18th century. If anyone has any documentation which is contrary to this, I'd sure like to see it. That especially includes any period references to short starters and loading blocks, both of which may be 20th century inventions. Over the years, I've come to suspect that there is no piece of equipment which has been "interpreted" with a 20th-century twist more than the shooting bag. >My curiosity is up & just wondering is most folks change bags as often as >I... I went rom leather to hemp, to bark tan, then homespun linen and now >the oil tanned double. I settled on all this a long time ago, and haven't changed my bag for several years. Bob Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net> Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 14:43:01 -0700 cpt L. if you have a jpg of your shooting bag i sure would like to see a picture of it ---mine is a double beavertail and I can send you a copy of it in jpg's---its maid out of a old leather mail pouch.--- YMHOSANT "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: In memorium? Date: 02 Aug 2000 15:07:22 -0500 Those of us who don't "do" the 18th century need help. Who died on August 1, 1794? >May we have a moment of silence in memorium of August 1, 1794? >John... HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Coyote of the Nimipoo Date: 02 Aug 2000 13:14:02 -0700 John Hunt wrote: > Any chance you will share the coyote that lives under the falls? John The story of Coyote and the Nimipoo (Nez Perce), is a long one, as the Nimipoo elders credit Coyote with being the creator, you can see the whole story at http://www.uidaho.edu/nezperce/monster.htm However, after creating the Nimipoo and the surrounding tribes, tribal lore states that Coyote was said to live in a cave at the bottom of the Big Eddy on the Clearwater, a veritable disaster of a place with whirlppools, rip currents, rapids, and turned over dugouts (glad I left my rifle at home for this trip). The Nimipoo tended to avoid that place as sacred, which probably saved the lives of a score of young boys over the years. The strange thing is that divers did find a cave at the bottom of the Eddy, some 90 feet under water. Now how, I ask you, did the Indians know that 100 years ago? Here's to Coyote, who no doubt is supping his drink with my cup right now. Mystified In Idaho Lee Newbill Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 13:21:08 -0700 Hawk, I'll see if I can find the wife's digital camera and get a picture off to you. I'd like to see yours too. Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 2:43 PM > cpt L. > if you have a jpg of your shooting bag i sure would like to see a picture > of it ---mine is a double beavertail and I can send you a copy of it in > jpg's---its maid out of a old leather mail pouch.--- > > YMHOSANT > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: In memorium? Date: 02 Aug 2000 16:29:32 -0400 HBC Whiskey Rebellion... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Introduction, Shooting bags and bullet blocks Date: 02 Aug 2000 15:28:43 -0500 I have been lurking on this list for some time and decided to jump in. Some of you already know me in person and from other lists. My name is Randy Hedden or "Harddog". I am a member of the AMM from the Illinois Brigade, Three Rivers Alliance Party. I currently have three different shooting pouches. The first is a small bag, 6x7 with just a bullet bag sewn to the inside back, that I carry with my typical 18th century rifles and fowlers. The second bag is a double bag, 8x8, that I carry when I feel the need to carry roundball, shot, and the wads used with the shot. The double bag has two main pockets of course as well as bullet bag or pouch sewn into the back inside of the rear main pocket and has a flat envelope pocket sewn to the outside front of the bag that is covered by the flap. I find the envelope pocket the perfect place to stash up to ten premade cartridges. The main front pocket holds my wads and shot pouch and 50 or 60 30 caliber balls in the bottom for use in buck and ball loads. The rear main pocket contains those items for the care and repair of my flintlock, such as a small knife, extra flints, extra patching material. The bullet bag that is sewn to the inside back of the rear main pocket is pulled up and stuck into the front main pocket so as to kind of close off the rear main pocket so there is no confusion of getting into the wrong pocket when in a hurry. The third bag, which I don't carry much more, is larger, 8x10, and is a beavertail style that I used to carry with my hawken style rifles. It also has just a bullet bag sewn on the rear inside. I like jaeger rifles and early German/Pennsylvania transitional rifles and probably will sometime soon make myself a great big old German hunting/game bag. Randy Hedden AMM #1393 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Shooting Bags Date: 02 Aug 2000 15:37:14 -0500 Is there anyone out there besides me that thinks or has documentation that shooting bags for any time period varied greatly by geographic location and nationality? I am particularly thinking of the Pennsylvania Dutch who carried the large game/hunting bags while maybe people of English, Scottish, or French heritage carrried smaller bags of different style. Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Bags Date: 02 Aug 2000 17:05:29 -0400 Is there a way we can post pics of our bags on this board? I would like to see what ya'll are carrying. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 4:37 PM > Is there anyone out there besides me that thinks or has documentation that > shooting bags for any time period varied greatly by geographic location and > nationality? > > I am particularly thinking of the Pennsylvania Dutch who carried the large > game/hunting bags while maybe people of English, Scottish, or French > heritage carrried smaller bags of different style. > > Randy Hedden > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 17:19:57 EDT In a message dated 8/2/00, Dennis writes: << I will show this to the other half later.. Then you are on your own...<G> D >> Bag Axe istantly becomes Fox Axe. Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: MtMan-List: Moccasins Date: 02 Aug 2000 16:04:32 -0600 Ho the list! I am in the process of making another pair of moccasins and have settled on the one-piece side seam style. I have a copy of George M. White's "Craft Manual of North American Indian Footwear" which has a pattern for these (Salish). White's pattern has ankle extensions that he states should be around 6 inches tall. But, in all the period descriptions of moccasin making that I have read, there is no mention of adding these extensions. Personally, I like to have "high tops" as it seems to add more support for my aging ankles when hiking. It also helps keep out the dirt & rock. Now my question....... Has anyone found primary documentation for these extensions? Do you make them like that anyway? Any other thoughts on White's book? Lou Sickler Colorado Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moccasins Date: 02 Aug 2000 18:00:10 -0600 At 04:04 PM 08/02/2000 -0600, you wrote: >like to have "high tops" as it seems to add more support for my aging ankles >when hiking. It also helps keep out the dirt & rock. Lou, Don't think the extensions will give you any ankle support (at least in moccasin weight leather, but they really help keep the dirt, rocks, snow out. > >Has anyone found primary documentation for these extensions? I haven't, but now there's a new task! > >Do you make them like that anyway? > Yes, I find it's a big aid. >Lou Sickler >Colorado Territory > > Allen Hall in Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 19:04:21 -0700 Dennis, I prefer single bags, about 8X8 in size, with just a small pocket in the back to hold a extra flint, a couple of greased patches and a tow worm. Like you I tend to build a new bag every year or two. I tried a double bag once and found it to be too bulky. As far as gadgets, gee gaws, and add ons, I use the K.I.S.S. method. I don't want anything attached to the outside of a bag, except one of your patch knives, it is in a sheath sewn to the back of my rifle bag. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Got a question... I just did me up another bag recently, this time in a double version with a shot charger attached in between the bags in the fold.. I think I like it, but we will see during the upcoming Fall & Winter. My question is: If you had to purchase (or make) your shooting bag all over again, would it be single or double and what gee gaws or "add-ons" would you like to attach?? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Bags Date: 02 Aug 2000 20:12:00 -0400 >Is there a way we can post pics of our bags on this board? I would like to >see what ya'll are carrying. Probably not on this board, but most ISPs provide space for you to do that sort of thing. I use mine all the time, and it's very handy. Here is my bag and its contents, which, as you can see, are minimal. The bag is 7" x 7 1/2", sewn with no gusset, out of one piece of pigskin. The whole outfit weighs less than 1 1/2 pounds. http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Bag1.jpg http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Bag2.jpg Bob Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net> Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Bags Date: 02 Aug 2000 21:04:56 -0400 Someone said he's like to see what bags we carry. These are the other two I use, occasionally. I don't use them for reenacting, just for hunting with guns of the appropriate style. The double bag is sewn with no gusset, but with a welt. The "D" bag is sewn with a 2" gusset for added room. http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/DoubleBag.jpg http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/D-Bag.jpg Bob Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net> Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: shot pouches Date: 02 Aug 2000 21:26:11 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BFFCC8.47D58EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just completed my 5th. shot pouch, to end all shot pouches. after = having the honor of spending 6 days traversing the green river country = with my mountaineer companions Todd glover and Rick William's I couldn't = help but notice Todd's very light wt. small but nicely crafted shot = pouch and after taking notice of the bare essentials he kept in it I = determined that my own pouch was to dmn. big and I carried to much sht. = the pouch I made is 7"x71/2" of veg-tan leather handsewn with linen = thread with a 1" carrying strap. the conclusion I've come to is thus far = is to carry only the bare essentials and don't scrimp on authenticity. = those are the things I changed on my shot pouch. Good luck ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BFFCC8.47D58EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#f0e8d8> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I just completed my 5th. shot pouch, to = end all=20 shot pouches. after having the honor of spending 6 days = traversing=20 the green river country with my mountaineer companions Todd glover and = Rick=20 William's I couldn't help but notice Todd's very light wt. small = but=20 nicely crafted shot pouch and after taking notice of the bare essentials = he kept=20 in it I determined that my own pouch was to dmn. big and I carried to = much sht.=20 the pouch I made is 7"x71/2" of veg-tan leather handsewn with = linen=20 thread with a 1" carrying strap. the conclusion I've come to is = thus far is=20 to carry only the bare essentials and don't scrimp on = authenticity. those=20 are the things I changed on my shot pouch. Good=20 luck</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BFFCC8.47D58EA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coyote of the Nimipoo Date: 03 Aug 2000 00:21:38 -0400 Thanks Lee, will check it out. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 02 Aug 2000 21:51:01 -0700 Hawk, Did you ever receive a couple of pics of my bag today? Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 2:43 PM > cpt L. > if you have a jpg of your shooting bag i sure would like to see a picture > of it ---mine is a double beavertail and I can send you a copy of it in > jpg's---its maid out of a old leather mail pouch.--- > > YMHOSANT > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Bags Date: 03 Aug 2000 00:15:21 -0700 harddog totally agree with you have about 8 or 10 original bags and each is uniquely different in size and type its a wonderment the difference they are---from a simple bag to a very elaborate one---sorepaw(wayne Welge) in st louis had a bird hunting bag that i have tried to get from him for about 10 years---it is made of the feet of deer skins and has loops for birds on it or squirrels---it is a shotgun bag and a bit bigger than a normal bag--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Introduction, Shooting bags and bullet blocks Date: 03 Aug 2000 00:12:30 -0700 hard dog if you have a jpg of the bags send me a copy am putting together a set of notes on practical and useful bags--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Bags Date: 03 Aug 2000 00:16:19 -0700 frank --- putting togethae a bit of notes on the subject will forward wehat i have when i get it together--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 03 Aug 2000 00:47:29 -0700 CPT L. got the pictures "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Bag Question Date: 03 Aug 2000 00:02:06 -0500 Hawk, I'll see if I can email a couple of pictures tomorrow. Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Moccasins Date: 03 Aug 2000 07:37:18 -0600 Allen, Well, I find that the leather whangs, when wrapped around the ankle and lower calf, do in fact make my ankles feel better. Maybe it's just my imagination, but SOMETHING feels better than when hiking with "low tops". I did find one reference to this style from our old friend George Ruxton: "Wild Life in the Rocky Mountains" Each tribe of Prairie Indians has a different method of making moccasins, so that any one, acquainted with the various fashions, is at no loss to know the nation to which any particular one belongs whom he may happen to meet. The Arapahos and Cheyennes use a "shoe" moccasin, that is, one which reaches no higher than the instep, and wants the upper sideflaps which moccasins usually have. I always used Chippewa moccasins, which differ from those of the Prairie make, by the seam being made up the center of the foot to the leg, and puckered into plaits. This, which is the true fashion of the "Forest Indian," (who, by the by, is as distinct in character and appearance from him of the "plains" as a bear from a blue-bottle) attracted the attention of the Arapaho warriors, and caused a lively discussion amongst themselves, owing to the novelty of the manufacture. They all surrounded me, and each examined and felt carefully the unusual chaussure. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Hall [SMTP:allenhall@srv.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 6:00 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moccasins > > At 04:04 PM 08/02/2000 -0600, you wrote: > > >like to have "high tops" as it seems to add more support for my aging > ankles > >when hiking. It also helps keep out the dirt & rock. > > Lou, > > Don't think the extensions will give you any ankle support (at least in > moccasin weight leather, but they really help keep the dirt, rocks, snow > out. > > > > >Has anyone found primary documentation for these extensions? > > I haven't, but now there's a new task! > > > >Do you make them like that anyway? > > > Yes, I find it's a big aid. > > >Lou Sickler > >Colorado Territory > > > > > Allen Hall in Fort Hall country > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: I need horn Date: 03 Aug 2000 11:53:08 -0400 Please forgive the cross posting.. Mea Culpa Gentlemen & Ladies I am in need of 5 or so pieces of solid horn tip, preferably blonde. And at LEAST 5" long. I will trade iron goods or Dead Presidents for these. Yer choice. Thanks Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 03 Aug 2000 12:57:34 -0500 > > Great story! So.....Let me get this straight...the pine pitch is the > "turpintine", add some animal fat, in this case pork fat, heat, and you have > a good, waterproof glue! > I'll try it... > If you use this recipe you will get a soft pitch used on bark canoes in winter when regular pitch would become too brittle. Pitch, as used glue arrow heads to arrow shafts, for example, is pine pitch mixed with charcoal. Here is what I have from another mailing list; Heat some water in a can and dump the chunks of pitch in there. When they melt, they should float to the surface and the impurities should sink. It will melt just don't let it boil unless you want a brittle type of pitch. You then use a small stick and twirl the melted pitch like cotton candy. To use it, just apply heat onto the "pitch on sticks" and apply. To smooth the humps, after application, heat the part you have applied pitch to (bindings on an arrowhead for example) to melt the pitch and let the excess flow away. When it cools, you have a nicely sealed binding or whatever. Don't mix in the fat as fat, grease, or oil is what I use to cut it and get it off my hands. ---------------- My experience is that the glue joint gets stronger the longer you heat the pitch and the reason is you are driving out the volatiles Pitch that has been heated repetedly lacks plasticity and therefore when a glue joint fails it fails catastrophically. If one thinks of these glues in terms of modern day glues then pitch with volatiles and milkweed sap are more like using "DUCO" Cement and if it has been heated until the volatiles are driven off it becomes more like "SUPER GLUE" and works best if used the same way. That means smooth surfaces that fit well together without voids. If one wants to use SUPER GLUE to glue objects together that have voids, try sprinkling baking soda on one of the surfaces before you apply the SUPER GLUE, you will be able to repair items that using that method that were impossible to repair with SUPER GLUE before. The ashes work with the pitch in the same way that the baking soda does with SUPER GLUE . Pitch glue (without volatiles) is strong if used in a VERY thin layer on items without voids. For glue joints with thickness and/or voids use a filler (ashes). ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 03 Aug 2000 19:03:21 EDT In a message dated 8/3/00 12:02:29 PM Mountain Daylight Time, jdearing@brick.net writes: << Pitch, as used glue arrow heads to arrow shafts, for example, is pine pitch mixed with charcoal. >> Ok.... not many pines on the West side of the Cascades, cept Lodgepole, will any evergreen pitch work? Got lottsa Douglas Fir here... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 03 Aug 2000 16:24:49 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 4:03 PM > Ok.... not many pines on the West side of the Cascades, cept Lodgepole, will > any evergreen pitch work? Got lottsa Douglas Fir here... Magpie, Don't think there are any lodgepole over on your side, just tall skinny trees that grow in tight clumps trying to reach the sun which hardly ever shows itself anyway. But they are not lodge pole pine. Probably fir. Fir pitch (any pitch) will work. Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I need horn Date: 03 Aug 2000 17:31:07 -0600 Dennis, I believe I might have some horn tips, five inches is pretty long for solid horn, will trade more later Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 03 Aug 2000 19:43:15 EDT In a message dated 8/3/00 5:21:23 PM Mountain Daylight Time, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << Don't think there are any lodgepole over on your side, just tall skinny trees that grow in tight clumps trying to reach the sun which hardly ever shows itself anyway. But they are not lodge pole pine. Probably fir. >> Haaaaa....I agree, it don't shine here....but where do ya think I got all the poles for my lodge? Great stand of lodgepole just south of Mt St Helens... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I need horn Date: 03 Aug 2000 22:22:12 -0400 Joe Wrote: "five inches is pretty long for solid horn" Joe...Anything over 4" will work fine... Thankee D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" , ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" <atthesea@gte.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge Date: 03 Aug 2000 19:31:28 -0700 Hello this technical discussion group. Two things: First. Had a long time, I mean a long time bp shooter in Montana tell me that the "old" guys used to shoot their rifles over the snow, when unburned black powder showed on the ground they backed her down just a shade and stayed with that load. Probably few of them old guys gave much of hoot, nor could they have known a lot about muzzle velocity, etc. Probably when they felt it was right, it was right. My old buddy said that they just knew when they weren't wasting powder and that their rifle was tuned to where they wanted it. I have no idea where his info came from, but felt then as now, he knew of which he was speaking. I did that and in my altered old indianized CVA much more than 85 grains was making the snow black. Second. I have heard, or read, that one of the reasons that the long barreled rifle was so popular was the sighting plane. The longer the distance between the rear and front sight the more accurate the sight register. Them guys musta not worn bifocals. I can see one sight or the other on my 26" barrel, not both. Just info. Have no idea as to accuracy of any of it. Regards, John Barber ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 03 Aug 2000 22:11:26 -0500 > >> > Ok.... not many pines on the West side of the Cascades, cept Lodgepole, will > any evergreen pitch work? Got lottsa Douglas Fir here... > Ymos, > Steve > > I believe the pitch produced by any pitch producing tree will do. Some better than others, but the pitch of cherry, any pine, and birch should work. Birch tar needs to be "rendered" from the bark by heating the bark and allowing the birch tar to seep out of the bark...or so I'm told. I have no experience with birch tar. Just cut the bark in an upward direction, to reduce the chance of causing disease and insect infestation, and wait for the sap to ooze from the wound. The longer the pitch sits on the tree, the more solid it gets. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 03 Aug 2000 20:48:41 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 4:43 PM > Haaaaa....I agree, it don't shine here....but where do ya think I got all the > poles for my lodge? Great stand of lodgepole just south of Mt St Helens... Magpie, Are they "Lodge Pole PINE" or tall skinny fir? Most of my lodge poles came from WA. east side and they are mostly fir. Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge Date: 03 Aug 2000 21:11:04 -0700 John, I must say I agree with most of what your saying as practical wisdom from long ago. But wasn't this discussion on the MLML list rather than the MtMan-List? Or am I getting more senile than I think. <G> Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 7:31 PM > Hello this technical discussion group. > Two things: First. Had a long time, I mean a long time bp shooter in > Montana tell me that the "old" guys used to shoot their rifles over the > snow, when unburned black powder showed on the ground they backed her down > just a shade and stayed with that load. Probably few of them old guys gave > much of hoot, nor could they have known a lot about muzzle velocity, etc. > Probably when they felt it was right, it was right. My old buddy said that > they just knew when they weren't wasting powder and that their rifle was > tuned to where they wanted it. I have no idea where his info came from, but > felt then as now, he knew of which he was speaking. I did that and in my > altered old indianized CVA much more than 85 grains was making the snow > black. Second. I have heard, or read, that one of the reasons that the > long barreled rifle was so popular was the sighting plane. The longer the > distance between the rear and front sight the more accurate the sight > register. Them guys musta not worn bifocals. I can see one sight or the > other on my 26" barrel, not both. > Just info. Have no idea as to accuracy of any of it. > Regards, > John Barber > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge Date: 03 Aug 2000 23:25:16 -0500 Capt. L, Your are right in both cases, the thread was on MLML and yes, you probably are getting more senile than you think.<G> Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge Date: 03 Aug 2000 22:12:26 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 9:25 PM more senile than you think.<G> Harddog, Thanks for the confermation. Isn't the above an oxymoron? <G> Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 04 Aug 2000 01:22:09 EDT To gather pitch, take a small paper bag and your hatchet. Go in to the woods and scan all the coniferous trees in the vicinity. Diseased trees with insect borers in them seem to be better. There will be large knots of dried pitch on the sides of these diseased trees. Hack it off with your hatchet and put it in the bag. Don't pay any attention to how gross it looks. When you have enough, take it home and put it in a large tomato can. Place it on the stove at the lowest possible heat setting. Let it remain there until it melts. Take a small forked stick and use it to scoop out all the bark, twigs, and dead bugs. Don't forget to bend a spout on the tomato can. Pour it in to smaller metal containers for future use. I use old percussion cap tins. It will harden into a light brown, plastic solid. When you get ready to use it, heat it up again per John Dearing's instructions. The hotter you heat it, the harder it will be when it dries. The soft stuff remains flexible, so it is not real good as a glue. Mix powdered charcoal in with it to make pitch glue. The hotter it gets, the darker and thinner it will become, until it almost has the consistency and color of real maple syrup. (not Karo) It is then ready to be used as a glue. PS, it does burn, but just remove it from the heat and blow it out if it catches on fire. If it happens to be on your skin when it does this, just plan on being disfigured for a while. If you screw it up, write me offlist and I will send you some. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: bag question Date: 04 Aug 2000 08:54:21 -0500 Bob Spencer wrote, <In mid-18th century the horns were quite large and tended to be fancy, with engraving, carving.> Bob I enjoyed your explanation of the evolution of bag design, very informative. However, your statement regarding horns brings out some misconceptions that carry over into all kinds of antiquities, guns and everyday items as well. Most research is based on what survived and is available for study today. In other words, what did not survive is not studied and conclusions are often based on the study of surviving items only. As with things used today, ordinary items are discarded when they become worn out or obsolete. 'Back then' the same thing happened. The common working gun was ignored or even trashed when a better one became available. Same with horns. ` On the other hand fancy or presentation pieces were cherished, cared for and passed on to succeeding generations. Check the museums, fancy guns greatly outnumber plain or working guns. I spoke with a gun museum curator recently who actually declines donations of non-fancy guns, he will refuse an 18th century plain [not plains] rifle because he considers it unworthy. I disagree with him but he is the curator. My point is, I believe you would have been more accurate to say that "some" horns got fancier. I doubt the guy raising seven kids in a one room cabin in the wilderness cared whether his horn was fancy or plain when he went hunting. Respectfully, Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question Date: 04 Aug 2000 13:07:46 -0400 > Most research is based on what survived and is available for study >today. In other words, what did not survive is not studied and conclusions >are often based on the study of surviving items only. That's certainly true, Frank. Still, I believe there are other factors involved. At any give period in time, people favor certain styles. These preferences don't usually last, and another style comes into vogue, for whatever reasons. I think that has something to do with the fact that those who study and collect horns recognize a distinct French and Indian War 'style' horn, for instance. They don't, however, speak of Revolutionary War style horns, just horns of the Revolutionary period. We can see the same thing in guns. After the Revolution, with a surplus of gunsmiths needing to make a living and a decreased demand for guns, the guns became more ornate, and you got more 'bang for your buck', because of the severe competition. So, we wind up with the Golden Age Rifle. They were popular for 25 years, or so, but then they quickly declined, for several reasons. Who can doubt that guns from the 1820 period were much more plain, showed much less taste than those of 1790? >` On the other hand fancy or presentation pieces were cherished, cared >for and passed on to succeeding generations. Check the museums, fancy guns >greatly outnumber plain or working guns. You are absolutely right. If my comments lead anyone to believe that *all* horns were fancy, I mislead them. I didn't mean to say that. I should have said that more fancy horns were made early on, fewer later. There were probably always a preponderance of plainer horns throughout the period. As far as size is concerned, I suspect that was related to function. It just takes a lot less powder to hunt than it does to make war, and most of those early, large, decorative horns were related to military exploits. Because of larger caliber guns, maybe, but certainly a need to have an ample reserve of powder. It's of little concern if you run out of powder on a squirrel hunt. <G> > My point is, I believe you would have been more accurate to say that >"some" horns got fancier. I doubt the guy raising seven kids in a one room >cabin in the wilderness cared whether his horn was fancy or plain when he >went hunting. You are probably right (except that I said they got plainer, not fancier). It depends on what picture we have of the situation at that time, doesn't it? Because we are particularly interested in the frontiers at different periods, we tend to think in those terms. The fact is, though, that those on the frontier made up a fairly small percentage of the population at large, so we may be forcing ourselves into a skewed perspective. Bob Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net> Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question Date: 04 Aug 2000 14:14:33 -0500 -----Original Message----- >>Bob Spencer wrote, >> >> <In mid-18th century the horns were quite large and >>tended to be fancy, with engraving, carving.> > I enjoyed your explanation of the evolution of bag design, very >informative. However, your statement regarding horns brings out some >misconceptions that carry over into all kinds of antiquities, guns and >everyday items as well. I'm with Bob on this one. Mid and late 18th century horns were quite large and tended to be fancy with engraving and carving. They were large and had large spouts because the calibers used were larger. They were often carved and practically always engraved. By the end of King Georges War (1748) powderhorns had evolved into highly sophisticated personal items. During the French and Indian War decorated powder horns were "fashionable". By trading favors with friends or fellow soldiers they often had there horns carved and engraved in a professional manner. A good portion of men chose to carve there own horns and they were only limited by there talent and imagination. The "golden age" of the engraved powder horn was during the last half of the 18th century. By the end of the War of 1812 the earlier high art form disappeared. > I doubt the guy raising seven kids in a one room >cabin in the wilderness cared whether his horn was fancy or plain when he >went hunting. Next to his wife and children a mans powder horn was often times his most cherished possession. Bob was correct in pointing out that horns were larger, and fancier... northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge Date: 04 Aug 2000 16:12:40 EDT In a message dated 8/3/00 7:36:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, atthesea@gte.net writes: << Them guys musta not worn bifocals. I can see one sight or the other on my 26" barrel, not both. >> Try moving your rear sight forward toward the muzzle. Young eyes can see the back sight at 6 or 8 inches ahead of the breech, but us old grey beards need a bit more distance so's we can see both sights at the same time. Read somewhere Daniel Boone's rifle had 2 dove tail slugs in the barrel where the rear sight had been moved forward to compensate for his eye sight. Evidently, this is a "period fix" for aging eyes. Can anybody verify this? Eye sight ain't the only thing that goes south on us with age, huh, Capt? 8) NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 04 Aug 2000 17:29:58 EDT In a message dated 8/3/00 8:44:52 PM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << Are they "Lodge Pole PINE" or tall skinny fir? Most of my lodge poles came from WA. east side and they are mostly fir. Capt. L >> Yup...they sure are lodgepole pine! Got a bunch of skinny fir around, but this ain't them. Even had to get a permit to cut the "lodgepole pine" from the forest service... Hey... I brought a couple over for you at the PVLR, but you said you'd get some in Idaho. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 04 Aug 2000 15:01:52 -0700 > Yup...they sure are lodgepole pine! Got a bunch of skinny fir around, but > this ain't them. Even had to get a permit to cut the "lodgepole pine" from > the forest service... Hey... I brought a couple over for you at the PVLR, but > you said you'd get some in Idaho. Magpie, Well, I never got the job done with puttin up and tak'in down the Rendezvous I just never made time. Sorry I didn't take you up on your offer last time we were in close prox. Next time. <G> Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: manbear <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question Date: 04 Aug 2000 21:54:30 -0400 Frank Fusco wrote: > I spoke with a gun museum curator recently who actually declines donations > of non-fancy guns, he will refuse > an 18th century plain [not plains] rifle because he considers it unworthy. If it was me, I have him refer all people wanting to donate "Plain Janes" to MY museum. I'd gladly accept them...G Manbear ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: manbear <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question Date: 04 Aug 2000 21:54:30 -0400 Frank Fusco wrote: > I spoke with a gun museum curator recently who actually declines donations > of non-fancy guns, he will refuse > an 18th century plain [not plains] rifle because he considers it unworthy. If it was me, I have him refer all people wanting to donate "Plain Janes" to MY museum. I'd gladly accept them...G Manbear ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- North Star West Date: 05 Aug 2000 11:37:22 -0700 Hi All, I just wanted to commend the folks at North Star West, makers of fine Trade Guns and Kits. I lost the Screw which holds the hammer to the lock. I called to order it, and they are sending it to me at NO CHARGE. It wasn't their fault that I lost the screw. I offered to pay, and they said, we'll warranty it. I've had the gun nearly 10 years. Good folks, just wanted to publicly tip my hat to them. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- North Star West Date: 05 Aug 2000 17:32:10 EDT Had the same happen to and they did the same .GREAT PEOPLE. traphand ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rum the Beaver Date: 06 Aug 2000 13:37:00 EDT Summer Greetings to the List: Last month I asked if anyone remembered a reference to "rum the beaver," a story I stumbled upon in my research. I couldn't remember the meaning of the term. Not content to rest until I relocated the reference . . . . I share the story. It is from the Autobiography of Stephen Hall Meek. . . . I became imbued with that restless spirit of adventure that has since been a marked characteristic of my life, and left my home for the then comparatively unknown West. St. Louis was at the time the center of the fur trade of the United States, and when I reached that city I engaged with the Rocky Mountain Fur Company, to work in their warehouses. I was placed in the cellar by the celebrated William Sublette with several other green hands to "rum the beaver," which operation consisted of spreading the skins out upon the cellar floor and sprinkling them with rum for preservation. Sublette left us with the remark, "Don't you boys get tight now," at which idea we all laughed. Soon the fumes of the rum began to affect us and it was not long before we were reeling around the room apparently helplessly drunk. Sublette then put in an appearance, and pretended to be angry with us "Can't I leave you here alone for a few minutes without your getting drunk? Do you think that this is the kind of men I want around me? Here!" said he "drink this" and he drew a cup from the barrel. This had the effect of making us sober again and Sublette again left us with the remark " The next time you rum the beaver, just rum yourselves first." I found this story on our site: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/smeek.html Fair weather to you all, Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: manbear <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Happy Birthday Date: 07 Aug 2000 09:54:16 -0400 On this day in 1762 - John J. Astor was born. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Hunley Date: 08 Aug 2000 08:49:34 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C00115.9338FB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just watched on the news, the folks raise the Confederate Submarine = Hunley to the blue skies once more.. In one piece... Facinating.... D ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C00115.9338FB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Just watched on the news, the folks raise the = Confederate=20 Submarine Hunley to the blue skies once more.. In one piece...=20 Facinating....</FONT></DIV> <DIV>D</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C00115.9338FB60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Fire victims OFF TOPIC Date: 08 Aug 2000 07:40:13 -0700 Friends, As you are aware, there are some outrageous fires which are out of control in many parts of the country. One fire in particular looms deadly in the Bitterroot Valley of Montana. They're are many friends of the Hist List and "brothers" to some of you, who reside in the valley. Talked with Bob Schmidt and Rick (Hawk) Hurst last night regarding their circumstances. Bob is not immediately threatened, apparently, as he lives on the opposite side of the valley. He states he can see "many" fires which are out of control along the mountain ridges west of the valley. Rick is not as lucky. He and his family are preparing to evacuate. I had the privilege of staying with Rick and Tammi for a short while last year in their log home. They are on the west side of the Hamilton valley and reside up a heavily wooded canyon. Things are not good for them right now. Keep them in your prayers. John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: A gun manufacturer that is true to their word and their product. Date: 08 Aug 2000 11:25:23 EDT Every once and a while the question comes as to what gun a beginner with limited resouces ($) should get. I, and my family, have all been doing this hobby/life style for the past 10 years and never could afford to buy custom made guns for the family. And quite honestly I am not a good enough craftsman to waste the money on perfectly good parts to make a bad/sloppy home made gun. Many can, and will, but I just do not have that talent. So years ago we purchased a couple of traditions flintlock .50 cal rifles. I got the Pennsylvania and my wife got the shorter Tennessee .50 cal. Both are now over 5 years old and have been used in competitions, fun shoots and have put a lot of deer in the freezer. Some of you may remember I wrote some time back that I felt that FOR THE MONEY (less than $300) they are a good gun. Well at our last club shoot my wife was having a lot of problems, no spark or weak spark. I took the lock off and found a lot of side to side motion in the cock (hammer for those of you from the 1800's) and there was also some slop (looseness) front to back as well. Traditions advertizes a lifetime warrentee on all moving parts but I have always felt those warrentees were just so much wasted ink. Well think again, I fax'd them to ask what to do and they said send in the whole lock which I did via US Mail 3 weeks ago. And today I recieved via UPS a NEW replacement lock at no charge from Traditions. So for those of you that have to wait years to get that special custom gun, you can get started, have a great deal of fun with a good, AFFORDABLE, flintlock from Traditions and know that you will have a working gun to hand off to your son or daughter the day you finally get enough saved to buy your first (and possibly last) custom gun. Oh and for those of you that have the money, after 10 years I finally put aside enough to go down to CenterMark Guns in Fredonia NY and ordered a built for me new .62 cal/20 guage Tulle. Paul (owner of CenterMark) let me pick my wood from all the stock blanks he had on hand and was extremely helpful with getting proper length of pull/fit figured for my body and shooting style. He is also customizing it to my needs/wants/desires (rear sight for old eyes) steel ram rod, and sling swivels. I knew they made a wonderful gun but after driving down to order my gun in person, meeting the guys that make them and seeing the operation I can tell you these are good folks to get a gun from. They make Tulles, Early American Fowlers (shotguns) and Lancaster rifles as well as other special orders. You can see their work on display in the armory at Ft. Niagara in NY when you go there. Oh yes my Traditions flintlock will now be used by my 15 year old and when he graduates it will go to his younger sister. And based on Traditions warrentee it may just be around for my grand kids, wouldn't that be nice. Your Humble and Obediant Servant C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: MtMan-List: mad hatters Date: 07 Aug 2000 17:02:10 -0600 Why was mercury used in making felt hats causing thus the term mad hatters joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gun manufacturer that is true to their word and their product. Date: 08 Aug 2000 12:25:28 EDT In a message dated 8/8/00 8:27:48 AM, CTOAKES@aol.com writes: << He is also customizing it to my needs/wants/desires (rear sight for old eyes) >> Hallo CTOAKES.... Glad to see you're finally getting a Tulle! I've had mine from CenterMark for mebbe 15years and dearly love it. Great shooter and throws enough sparks to start a brush fire with a good flint.... I'm wondering if you really want to put a rear sight on the gun though...us old timers can't see the rear sights anyway and it sure would keep you out of some great trade gun shoots.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> Subject: MtMan-List: CToakes --traditions Date: 08 Aug 2000 13:10:52 -0400 After reading Mr. Oakes comments about traditions, I must add info about Northstar. Due to bad tinkering by me trying to get a better fit between the frizzen and pan on my northwest (mfg. by Curly) I created a POORER FIT. This was about two weeks before deer season. Called northstar and explained about me working on my tradegun. Sent the lock to Nevada and they only charged me for the parts. Fit it correctly and put it together, I had it back in time to go deer hunting. The price of parts was cheap I thought. Won`t mention price due to inflation. Wasn`t charged for machine work. Extremely good and quick service. Can`t speak highly enough of the more than fair way I was treated. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gun manufacturer that is true to their word and their produ... Date: 08 Aug 2000 15:58:11 EDT Hey, CT! By "Custom rifle" ya mean like the middle one in the July/Aug Muzzleloader "center fold" by Steve Lodding? That example of what Steve's capable of hangs above my fire place when it ain't making noise & smoke up on the mountain. When I got my settlement for my work induced hearing loss, I ask Steve for a reproduction of Fredric Sell's Pegasus rifle, & with a few minor changes, got what I ask for. The Muzzleloader article mentions the lock plate isn't brass as on the original, & the picture shows the lock as a brown color. However it isn't brown -- Steve heat colored it to straw yellow, so it isn't as far off as it looks. Another change is the swamped barrel. We discovered through our research, the original had a tapered barrel -- after we'd already ordered the Coleran. For anyone who's seen pictures of the original, you know Fredric's version of the eagle on the cheek piece looks like a "ruptured duck" -- Steve rebelled at putting "that abortion" on "HIS" rifle, so the eagle is much better looking on the copy. I'm very pleased with the way it looks, handles & shoots. As for builders sticking behind their creations, I know Steve will back this rifle as long as he's able to pick up a tool. Other manufacturers I'm aware of who stand behind their goods are T/C (with the exception of their patriot pistol & Senica rifle which are no longer in production), North Star West, & Caywood. A friend was building a Caywood kit when his house was broken into & ransacked. The scum even killed his little dog. Anyhow, when he's straightened up the mess, he discovered the lock for his Caywood was missing. He called Danny & explained his dilemma, & Danny sent him a new lock FREE! MN ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Mind set Date: 08 Aug 2000 16:45:37 EDT Just to show how sometimes we get a case of tunnel vision, the wife just asked me: "Is your Cannon a 610?" I replied: "Trade gun is a .62, & while I normaly shoot .600's, I can shoot .610's if I patch a little thinner." She sez: "No, silly -- your printer -- you said you were out of ink!" NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mind set Date: 08 Aug 2000 15:38:52 -0700 ROTFLMAO. Thanks. Rick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce S. de Lis" <delis@fastq.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mind set Date: 08 Aug 2000 16:14:07 -0700 Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote: > ROTFLMAO. Thanks. > Rick > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ROTFLMAO What does ROTFLMAO mean????? Penny Pincher Sun City West, Arizona The land of the Senior Citizens, but a place where you are only as old as you act. Visit My Home Page, and Links of Interest. http://sites.netscape.net/pennyinarizona/micasa ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mind set Date: 08 Aug 2000 19:32:26 EDT Rollin On The Floor Laughing My A-- Off Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 08 Aug 2000 19:38:14 -0600 At 08:16 PM 01/31/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Hello All, > >A good friend of mine who has too much spare time on his hands, is >thinking of making some replica "I.Wilson" knives. (Of course I know it's >really "J. Wilson", spare me) Todd, Anything from this guy yet? Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: MtMan-List: Coconut used in the New world. Date: 08 Aug 2000 18:58:54 -0700 Here's something for you craftsman like the Capt., Goebel, etc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ FOR SALE The George Washington dipper from the spring near Valley Forge, Pennsylvanis. Brass, fitted coconut shell, with long wooden handle to be auctioned off at Christy's, only bids taken of over $5,000.00. Value estimated upwards of over $10,000.00. Written authentication along with brassmaker's name, and the year 1771. In family of the farm owners since the Revolution and proof of General Washington's use of the ladel. Call for picture 804-361-9166. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is very interesting as members of a fur trade list we think of gourd's and their uses, but remember the French used coconut shells in the same way when serving in this country; water containers, dipper (like the one above), storage containers, etc. Anyone have any reference to coconut uses in the fur trade like those uses in the F&I War and Rev. War just mentioned ??? Have read of coconut in the east and on the west coast being used, was a big trade item on the coastal areas of North America. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith <conchosmith@netscape.net> Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: Coconut used in the New world.] Date: 08 Aug 2000 22:12:16 EDT Hey Buck, I remember reading about coconut canteens, and day food containers that t= he French used in the North and in the colonies, forgot all about that. I'll= go to the library after work and see what we have in this Ma & Pa library he= re in PA. Thanks. Concho. buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: Here's something for you craftsman like the Capt., Goebel, etc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ FOR SALE The George Washington dipper from the spring near Valley Forge, Pennsylva= nis. Brass, fitted coconut shell, with long wooden handle to be auctioned off = at Christy's, only bids taken of over $5,000.00. Value estimated upwards of= over $10,000.00. Written authentication along with brassmaker's name, and the= year 1771. In family of the farm owners since the Revolution and proof of Gen= eral Washington's use of the ladel. Call for picture 804-361-9166. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is very interesting as members of a fur trade list we think of gourd= 's and their uses, but remember the French used coconut shells in the same w= ay when serving in this country; water containers, dipper (like the one abov= e), storage containers, etc. Anyone have any reference to coconut uses in the fur trade like those use= s in the F&I War and Rev. War just mentioned ??? Have read of coconut in the = east and on the west coast being used, was a big trade item on the coastal are= as of North America. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fire victims OFF TOPIC Date: 08 Aug 2000 21:09:59 -0500 John Funk wrote: "Friends, As you are aware, there are some outrageous fires which are out of = control in many parts of the country. One fire in particular looms deadly in = the Bitterroot Valley of Montana. They're are many friends of the Hist List = and "brothers" to some of you, who reside in the valley. Talked with Bob Schmidt and Rick (Hawk) Hurst last night regarding their circumstances. Bob is not immediately threatened, apparently, as he = lives on the opposite side of the valley. He states he can see "many" fires = which are out of control along the mountain ridges west of the valley. Rick = is not as lucky. He and his family are preparing to evacuate. I had the privilege of staying with Rick and Tammi for a short while last year in their log home. They are on the west side of the Hamilton valley and = reside up a heavily wooded canyon. Things are not good for them right now. Keep them in your prayers. John Funk" John Keep us updated on the fires and how they effect Rick, Grandpa and the = others in the area and if there is anything we can do....besides pray. =20 Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 08 Aug 2000 21:22:18 -0600 Well, he got everyone all stirred up , then sorta forgot the whole thing cause he needed around $250.00 to get started. He had enough commitments to recoup his money, but just got cold feet. "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mad hatters and use of mercury Date: 08 Aug 2000 23:22:43 EDT In order to use lesser quality or cheaper grades of fur to make hats, the mercury "carrot" was introduced in the eighteenth century. The surface of hair consists of a hard , keratin substance, similar to that of a finger nail but much finer. Before furs could be turned into felt, the keratin surface had to be destroyed. To do this, hair was soaked in a solution of salts of mercury, diluted in nitric acis. The development of this process allowed domestic sources of fur to become a fairly close substitute for beaver fur. (MuzzleBlasts, Jan. 1999. "From Pelt to Felt." p. 61) Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: Coconut used in the New world.] Date: 09 Aug 2000 05:02:20 -0700 Talked to Goose Bay Workshops, Peter Goebel last night, he called the phone number on this sale of Washington's dipper, turns out the owner is selling many items as he gets ready to enter a rest home, family members aren't into history whether it's family or otherwise. The location of the dipper is only a few hours away from GBW, so Peter has made an appointment to go see the dipper, handle it, photo, and it may be in next years catalog (a cousin per say - for sale). Later Buck. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On Tue, 08 August 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > Hey Buck, > I remember reading about coconut canteens, and day food containers that the > French used in the North and in the colonies, forgot all about that. I'll go > to the library after work and see what we have in this Ma & Pa library here in > PA. > > Thanks. > Concho. > -------------------------------------------------- > buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > Here's something for you craftsman like the Capt., Goebel, etc. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > FOR SALE > > The George Washington dipper from the spring near Valley Forge, Pennsylvanis. > Brass, fitted coconut shell, with long wooden handle to be auctioned off at > Christy's, only bids taken of over $5,000.00. Value estimated upwards of over > $10,000.00. Written authentication along with brassmaker's name, and the year > 1771. In family of the farm owners since the Revolution and proof of General > Washington's use of the ladel. Call for picture 804-361-9166. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > This is very interesting as members of a fur trade list we think of gourd's > and their uses, but remember the French used coconut shells in the same way > when serving in this country; water containers, dipper (like the one above), > storage containers, etc. > > Anyone have any reference to coconut uses in the fur trade like those uses in > the F&I War and Rev. War just mentioned ??? Have read of coconut in the east > and on the west coast being used, was a big trade item on the coastal areas of > North America. > Later. > Buck Conner > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ > Aux Aliments de Pays! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Custom guns Date: 09 Aug 2000 11:11:25 EDT In a message dated 8/8/00 4:00:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, NaugaMok@aol.com writes: << Hey, CT! By "Custom rifle" ya mean like the middle one in the July/Aug Muzzleloader "center fold" by Steve Lodding? >> Well that sure does qualify as a custom gun but what I mean by a custom gun is any gun that is built for you rather than a mass produced off the shelf retail type gun. My good reliable Traditions .50 cal flintlock was a non custom gun. If you bought one in your sportings good store it would look the same and be the same. My definition of a custom gun is one that is assembled and finsihed from parts to the individual taste and desires of the person that ordered it. And that does not mean it has to be fancy. The Tulle I ordered is being built with the right pull for my arm and shooting style. It is stocked with the wood I picked out. It will have a 38" barrel length (just the right length to fit in my gun rack in my truck without breaking glass and short enough to get thru the brush and woods where I hunt). But it is not a fancy gun like the one you refer to, my persona is a working man and I have ordered a plain servicable tool that can protect me, my family and put meat on the table. So I did not go for extra curly maple or fancy cherry etc. just plain maple with the grain running straight thru the wrist for strength. And I did not get brass or silver hardware just good old iron fittings that will wear well. The gun should go with my style. I sewed my own bag for it and the horn that will go with it is one I am carving myself. I carve the horn with my hunting knife and patch knife and vent pick well sitting between battles at forts or as a show and tell demo at events just as a bored (hurry up an wait) Rev War soldier my have done to pass the time. So yes it is a custom gun and I am paying to have it made my way but its not a center fold gun it is a Center Mark gun. YHOS C.T. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fire victims OFF TOPIC Date: 09 Aug 2000 08:12:56 -0700 Lanney, Will do. Am planning to call another friend today near Dillon, MT to see what's going on in that area. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Cc: "AMM" <ammlist@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 7:09 PM John Funk wrote: "Friends, As you are aware, there are some outrageous fires which are out of control in many parts of the country. One fire in particular looms deadly in the Bitterroot Valley of Montana. They're are many friends of the Hist List and "brothers" to some of you, who reside in the valley. Talked with Bob Schmidt and Rick (Hawk) Hurst last night regarding their circumstances. Bob is not immediately threatened, apparently, as he lives on the opposite side of the valley. He states he can see "many" fires which are out of control along the mountain ridges west of the valley. Rick is not as lucky. He and his family are preparing to evacuate. I had the privilege of staying with Rick and Tammi for a short while last year in their log home. They are on the west side of the Hamilton valley and reside up a heavily wooded canyon. Things are not good for them right now. Keep them in your prayers. John Funk" John Keep us updated on the fires and how they effect Rick, Grandpa and the others in the area and if there is anything we can do....besides pray. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert M Keefe <doctarie@juno.com> Subject: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 09 Aug 2000 18:57:41 -0400 Hello to all on the list. I have a problem I'm sure has come up from time to time for someone on this list. I recently bought a used panther 14x10 wall tent that had ben power washed with degreaser. Needles to say it was no longer waterproof so I called panther and explained my situation. They suggested I treat the tent with a product called can-vac canvas treatment. I have put two gallons on with a pump sprayer and it still leaks all over the place. Has anyone had a similar experience ? Any suggestions? This lodge is in really good shape but not to good in a rain. Thank you for any response Lightning ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 09 Aug 2000 23:25:09 EDT In a message dated 8/9/00 6:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, doctarie@juno.com writes: > Hello to all on the list. I have a problem I'm sure has come up from > time to time for someone on this list. I recently bought a used panther > 14x10 wall tent that had ben power washed with degreaser. you need to get the degreaser off. It is decreasing the surface tension of the water. Try washing the tent, first in soap, then a time or two in plain water, (you must get all the soap off first) THEN try water proofing it ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" <kpmtnman@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern Date: 10 Aug 2000 16:22:05 GMT Hello the list; I have recently come into possession of a right nice red fox pelt, and can not find a paatern for a hat. (Ihave Buckskinning 1,2,5,&6) Any pointers or directions, or patterns would be greatly appreciated. YMOS, Kevin ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" <kwesten@wyellowstone.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fire victims ON TOPIC Date: 10 Aug 2000 10:50:14 -0600 Has anyone heard the state or condition of the Medicine Tree in the Bitterroot? Rumor is it burned badly. Kurt "John C. Funk, Jr." wrote: > Friends, > As you are aware, there are some outrageous fires which are out of control > in many parts of the country. One fire in particular looms deadly in the > Bitterroot Valley of Montana. They're are many friends of the Hist List and > "brothers" to some of you, who reside in the valley. > > Talked with Bob Schmidt and Rick (Hawk) Hurst last night regarding their > circumstances. Bob is not immediately threatened, apparently, as he lives > on the opposite side of the valley. He states he can see "many" fires which > are out of control along the mountain ridges west of the valley. Rick is > not as lucky. He and his family are preparing to evacuate. I had the > privilege of staying with Rick and Tammi for a short while last year in > their log home. They are on the west side of the Hamilton valley and reside > up a heavily wooded canyon. Things are not good for them right now. > > Keep them in your prayers. > > John Funk > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Montana Fires Date: 10 Aug 2000 09:59:54 -0700 Lanny, et al...... Talked with Scott (Doc Ivory) Olson yesterday. Says Dillon and the entire Big Hole valley is inundated with smoke. Hasn't seen the Continental Divide for several weeks now. Fires rage further up the Big Hole valley but as yet the area between Dillon and Jackson have been spared. Says the best and most accurate quote he's heard was from the local fire coordinator, "God started these, He's the only one that can put them out". Doc say's that the first rains or snows (several months away) will be the mitigating factor. John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern Date: 10 Aug 2000 11:04:19 -0600 Kevin, What kind of hat are ye makin? Hope you're not going to waste your time & a good pelt makin one of those "full drape" fur hats. From all documents found there are no references to trappers wearing that kind of hat. But, if'n that's what you really want, I do have a pattern for one if you want some info. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Pitman [SMTP:kpmtnman@hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 10:22 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern > > Hello the list; > > I have recently come into possession of a right nice red fox pelt, and can > > not find a paatern for a hat. (Ihave Buckskinning 1,2,5,&6) Any pointers > or > directions, or patterns would be greatly appreciated. > > YMOS, > > Kevin > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" <kpmtnman@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern Date: 10 Aug 2000 17:19:09 GMT Tryin to decide on the pattern. Fulldrape crossed my mind, but would prefer a more appropriate one. YMOS, Kevin >From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern >Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:04:19 -0600 > >Kevin, > >What kind of hat are ye makin? > >Hope you're not going to waste your time & a good pelt makin one of those >"full drape" fur hats. From all documents found there are no references to >trappers wearing that kind of hat. > >But, if'n that's what you really want, I do have a pattern for one if you >want some info. > >Lou Sickler >Colorado Territory > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kevin Pitman [SMTP:kpmtnman@hotmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 10:22 AM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern > > > > Hello the list; > > > > I have recently come into possession of a right nice red fox pelt, and >can > > > > not find a paatern for a hat. (Ihave Buckskinning 1,2,5,&6) Any pointers > > or > > directions, or patterns would be greatly appreciated. > > > > YMOS, > > > > Kevin > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern Date: 10 Aug 2000 11:31:38 -0600 Kevin, Do you have the "Mountain Man's Sketchbook, Vol. 2"? It contains a pattern for a Fur Cap that is in the possession of the Museum of the Fur Trade. It looks like a modern hunting cap that has flaps to pull down over your ears. Mebbe that's what you're looking for. Feel free to contact me off-line, I do have that one at work here, coincidentally. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Pitman [SMTP:kpmtnman@hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 11:19 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern > > Tryin to decide on the pattern. Fulldrape crossed my mind, but would > prefer > a more appropriate one. > > YMOS, > > Kevin > > > >From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern > >Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:04:19 -0600 > > > >Kevin, > > > >What kind of hat are ye makin? > > > >Hope you're not going to waste your time & a good pelt makin one of those > >"full drape" fur hats. From all documents found there are no references > to > >trappers wearing that kind of hat. > > > >But, if'n that's what you really want, I do have a pattern for one if you > >want some info. > > > >Lou Sickler > >Colorado Territory > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kevin Pitman [SMTP:kpmtnman@hotmail.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 10:22 AM > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern > > > > > > Hello the list; > > > > > > I have recently come into possession of a right nice red fox pelt, and > > >can > > > > > > not find a paatern for a hat. (Ihave Buckskinning 1,2,5,&6) Any > pointers > > > or > > > directions, or patterns would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > YMOS, > > > > > > Kevin > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Montana Fires Date: 10 Aug 2000 11:58:46 -0600 Hi John, This is not unusual for Montana. The fire problems are similar to the Sleeping Child fire 40 years ago. Dillon is not in the timber or mountains. It is on the river bottom. I have family and reenactor friends from Trappers Peak to Stevensville as well as in Dillon. The heavy smoke haze is here 400 miles away. It is common to take a big rain to make Montana safe relatively that is from fire. It is most all ways a danger somewhere in the mountains. Walt Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of John C. Funk, Jr. Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 11:00 AM Lanny, et al...... Talked with Scott (Doc Ivory) Olson yesterday. Says Dillon and the entire Big Hole valley is inundated with smoke. Hasn't seen the Continental Divide for several weeks now. Fires rage further up the Big Hole valley but as yet the area between Dillon and Jackson have been spared. Says the best and most accurate quote he's heard was from the local fire coordinator, "God started these, He's the only one that can put them out". Doc say's that the first rains or snows (several months away) will be the mitigating factor. John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern Date: 10 Aug 2000 11:03:55 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 10:19 AM > Tryin to decide on the pattern. Fulldrape crossed my mind, but would prefer > a more appropriate one. Kevin, A much more appropriate pattern would be a simple "Canadian Cap". That is what I made out of the last fox pelt I came across. Bought it for that express purpose in fact. As Lou points out full drape hats not only aren't authentic, they look silly, but that is of course my personal opinion. If your interested in makeing a "Canadian Cap" and can't find a pattern there really is nothing to them. The crown is made of 4 inverted "fat" V shaped peices. I made mine out of two layers of wool blanket for warmth. They will total around the base the circumphrance of your head, allowing for the 4 seam allowances. They will be as long as the width of the strip of pelt sewn to the inside (when you turn the bottom flap up the pelt will be on the outside) of the upturned lower half plus the distance from where you want the "hat band" to be (also where the bottom folds up to the top of the crown. You can get an idea by having someone measure your head from where a hat band fits around just at your ears up to the top of your head. And measure down about 4" or so as that will be the width of the lower part and the width of the part covered with fox pelt. The two pieces you need from the pelt are cut "down the center" and over the required width. So they are two parallel pieces from the center of the pelt starting just behind the head or neck area and/or from the rump forward, depending on what will give best advantage to the use of the pelt. You will mate them together in the front (sewing them inside out to hide the stitch) and bring them around the lower part of the wool section of the hat and closing the back with another hidden stitch. You get the idea. The front ends of the pelt will be in front and etc. so the fur lays back and down when it is on the hat and that portion of the hat is turned up. When turned down the fur will be on the inside of course. Just think about how everything needs to go together, i.e. seams that will be inside and not show, etc. and give yourself a 1/2" for seam allowances where two pieces meet and stitch her up with some good linen thread. remeber that to hide a seam, you need to sew two peices together with good sides in and then when stitch line is finished, turn good sides to the outside. Plan ahead. <G> Try it out of muslin first just to make sure you know what you want. You can put a decorative yarn ball on top but it looks funny on my head so it is a matter of choice. You can also decorate the top with a couple of feathers like turkey, etc. Raptor feathers will get you a ticket from Fish and Wild Life so stick to game birds. If you plan ahead you can put a "casing" around the area of the hat band and put a ribbon of Gros Grain (sic) Ribbon inside to adjust the fit. I used a piece of blue ribbon and made the hat a bit loose so I can either have it tight and ridding high or loose and pulled down over my ears and etc. while sleeping. If you want you can make the inside layer out of something other than wool but two layers of wool will keep your head dry as water/moisture will not tend to travel between them, but vapor from your sweat will travel out. If you have particular questions feel free to ask away. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern Date: 10 Aug 2000 14:56:51 EDT In a message dated 8/10/2000 10:23:26 AM Mountain Daylight Time, kpmtnman@hotm ail.com writes: > I have recently come into possession of a right nice red fox pelt, and can > not find a paatern for a hat. (Ihave Buckskinning 1,2,5,&6) Any pointers or > directions, or patterns would be greatly appreciated.>> I know that the full drape "road kill" hats are very popular, but there is no documentation for them. You might try using a portion of the fox in a Canadian Hat which is a documentable early winter hat and it really is a nice looking hat. There are plans in Beth Gilgun's book Tiding's from the 18th Century. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce S. de Lis" <delis@fastq.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Still Thinking About A Caywood? Date: 10 Aug 2000 17:54:43 -0700 Well two years ago almost I first laid eye on the Caywood Muzzleloader, that I personally think every time I think of getting Smoothbore. The three I keep considering are the Northwest Trade Gun, The French Type C, and also the French Type D. So I ask several question hoping that some of you have a personal experience to share with my about your own Caywood Guns. 1.. I understand that Caywood Barrels, as made of a Modern Steel the like of Modern Shotgun Steel Barrel, verses the normal muzzleloader barrel with a lead content, and a softer steel like Getz, Colerail, or Green Mountain. 2. Have any of you Caywood owners had any personal experience with Caywood=92s Interchangeable Barrel System, as I am considering order with a Rifled Barrel, and a Smoothbore Barrel. .54 Caliber Rifled, and 28 Gauge Smoothbore. 3 Anyone know the time periods of the Northwest Trade Gun? Think the French Type C=92s are 1730=92s, and also the French Type D=92s 1750=92s. Correct or incorrect?? Last anyone got anything positive, or negative to say about Caywood's. All I hear is how great they are, and personally have never heard a negative word about the Caywood Product. Thanks, Penny Pincher Retired and loving it in Sun City West, Arizona The land of the Senior Citizens, but a place where you are only as old as you act. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern Date: 10 Aug 2000 20:22:09 -0500 Lou Sickler wrote: Hope you're not going to waste your time & a good pelt makin one of = those "full drape" fur hats.=20 In July I saw a "full drape" hat made from a javelina hide. Never saw = such a thing before. It was....well, odd. It looked like it could = cast a spell or something. A "wolf" hat made from wool blanketing is dead on period and proper and = is great to keep one's near-about bald head warm on cool Idaho nights. =20 Use you fox pelt to build a hat if it suits you, but you CAN use a fox = pelt to scare a Chihuahua dog nearly to death. Little ankle biting sob = ran off a bed right into space almost far enough to hit a wall. You had = to be there to appreciate the humor. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs and zFur Hats Date: 10 Aug 2000 20:55:46 -0500 Lanney, Used to scare the crap out of my 4 dogs with one of them full drape coyote hats. They would growl, bark and run into the other room. That is until one of them got ahold if it when I wasn't around and tore the damn thing to shreads. Oh well the thing wasn't PC anyhow, but the good wife did buy it for me. YMOS, Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern Date: 10 Aug 2000 22:37:33 EDT Alfred Jacob Miller's paintings show a "wolf" hat made from wool blanketing. Saw several this summer at the Pacific Primitive Rendezvous in Susanville, California. Very impressive and not one lick of fur. Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry R. Koenig" <trkoenig@pvtnetworks.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Hat Pattern Date: 10 Aug 2000 21:38:51 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01C00313.60024F80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00D8_01C00313.60024F80" ------=_NextPart_001_00D8_01C00313.60024F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevin: I personally always thought those full draped hats "looked good." I = never did have the right kind of plew to do one up, or I'd have one = myself. The red fox plew you have sure sounds like it would make a dandy = looking topper - and provides you with a great opportunity to express = your own individuality. Make a statement I say. . . . damn the = documentation! Are ye a mountain man, or just following some of the = crowd that's become overly obsessed with the documentation of every = little detail.=20 I can't offer you documentary proof that a mountain man wore such a = chapeau, but who the hell can document they didn't. A. J. Miller the painter who went to rendezvous in "37" had this to say = about trappers hats. "the peculiar caps on their heads are made by themselves, to replace = felt hats, long since worn out, or lost," p. 29 "The West of A.J. = Miller" ed. Marvin C. Ross, Univ. of Okla. Press, 1968. Again from the same text p. 147 "Some of their caps are constructed of = the same material;(Mackinaw blanket) but these last exercise to a great = extent the genius of the Trapper." I can't say that Miller ever did paint a trapper with a full drape skin = hat, but no doubt there were a lot of things he saw, but never painted. Another artist Karl Bodmer went up the Missouri in "33 - 34" and painted = a lot of Indians on the upper Missouri. Remembering that trappers = adapted a lot of their clothing from the Indians I thought these two = paintings from "People of the First Man" ed. by Davis Thomas & Karin = Ronnefeldt, E.P. Dutton & Co., Inc, NY, 1976. are of some interest. = They may not be red fox, but still. "An Assinboin hunter, dressed for the coming winter weather." p. 157 Excerpt of Bodmer's copy of Mato-Tope's painted buffalo robe. p. 221. Mayne Reid an author and veteran of the Mexican War published in 1850 = "Scalp Hunters," in which, he described some mountain men who were scalp = hunters. "On his head is a raccoon cap, with the face of the animal = looking to the front, while the barred tail hang like a plume drooping = down to his left shoulder." This reference is not "period correct", as = so many of todays guru's of the fur trade will quickly point out, but it = does give you an idea of what a mountain man was wearing in the 1840's. There you have it. . . .not an example of extensive research, but hell I = figure it's enough. If you fancy a full draped cap, then show your = "genius" with that red fox plew. . . . do her up fine, and to hell with = all the nit picking. Terry R. 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Pipxp8VelPfCrHb3/A3B/rf6Pp3p6fKv+R6P7zn/AKvxYp3ZAtPTTh9ii8a1rSm1eXxf8FixX70x Vrv7/wCfjgVc1fpxVTj+rerJ6Pp+t/uzhx5/7Pj8X/BYUKhr264FcMKtGtN+m+Kt7074UP8A/9k= ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01C00313.60024F80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hafen Series Date: 11 Aug 2000 00:01:23 EDT Folks, I got my copy of the new edition of Hafen's "Mountain Men and the fur Trade of the far West. Vol. !" today. It is marvelous. Along with it came the following letter (paraphrased): ...Are you interested in more Mountain Men?...We are seriously considering reprinting all 10 volumes of the set, but need the support of customers like you to undertake hte project. A 20% discount off the list prices ($55.00 per volume) will apply to all volumes we send you if you subscribe now. That means you'll save $11.00 on each book.... If we undertake the project, we will publish 3-4 volumes per year. Thus you will have your complete set within three years. Each volume will be published in an edition of approximately 500 copies, and will match the first volume ... We need your confirmation today! If you wish to subscribe, please complete the form below and mail or fax it to us right away. Or you may call us at (800-842-9286) or email us at clarkbks@soar.com. We will notify you as soon as a decision is reached regarding the publication project. We need to hear from you even if you previously told us by phone that you have an interest in the set." Order card (fascimile) Yes, I wish to order___set(s) of Hafen's Mountain Men and the fur Trade (10 volumes). Price is $55.00 per volume less a 20% discount for me as a subscriber. My subscription will begin with Vol. 2. Shippin charge of $4.00 for each book will be added. Washington customers include sales tax of 8.1%. __Payment enclosed Name ______________________________ __Visa __Mastercard Street_______________________________ __Bill my established account City________________State_____Zip_____ Credit card number_________________________ Expiration date____________________________ Signature_________________________________ So there you have it! An opportunity to get the whole set if enough peolpe respond. The first edition, when you can find it from an Out-of Print dealer runs from $1500 (if you're lucky) to about $2750. Now, I don't work for them. Nor do I know what they will say when they find I have told all you who didn't already order Vol. 1. So be prepared for whatever reaction you might get form them. Hopefully, they'll be thrilled. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Still Thinking About A Caywood? Date: 11 Aug 2000 11:10:10 -0700 On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:54:43 -0700 "Bruce S. de Lis" <delis@fastq.com> writes: > > So I ask several question hoping that some of you have a personal > experience to share with my about your own Caywood Guns. > will try to help you out as best as possible > 1.. I understand that Caywood Barrels, as made of a Modern Steel the > like of Modern Shotgun Steel Barrel, verses the normal muzzleloader > barrel with a lead content, and a softer steel like Getz, Colerail, > or Green Mountain. caywood barrels are made of 10 series leaded soft steel original barrels were made of iron but most of the modern barrel makers use the same type of materials---caywood orders blanks and then turns the barreld to fit his guns and drills and taps for the breaches > 2. Have any of you Caywood owners had any personal experience with > CaywoodÆs Interchangeable Barrel System, as I am considering order > with a Rifled Barrel, and a Smoothbore Barrel. .54 Caliber Rifled, and > 28 Gauge Smoothbore. caywood has a master jig that all his barrel fit into and he has used this master since day one so the barrel you get will be a drop in as you would say---its just that simple and he has different gages and rifeled or smooth to fit the same gun---for the rifled barrel I would use the .54 but for the smoothy i would use the 24 or 20 gage barrel---with the .54 which is a 28 gage its a good smoothbore gun but it also you have to shoot quick as it does not have the range and power of the larger smoothy---I like my 28 gage but know it well and load and shoot it to it's maximum capibility---it is made of the same material as what caywood used but was made by boska and is a made to shoot .535 round ball with a .015 .017 pillow ticking patch---I ordered it special at the time it is also a long one---44 1/2 in ---it really likes 3 f powder and shoots like a rifle out to 50 yds if i had sights on it it would even be competative with the rifles it shoots so well--- > > 3 Anyone know the time periods of the Northwest Trade Gun? Think > the French Type CÆs are 1730Æs, and also the French Type DÆs 1750Æs. > Correct or incorrect?? get a copy of charly hanson's book "the northwest trade gun and it will give you all the info you are looking for along with a good historical perspective of the trade gun==== > Last anyone got anything positive, or negative to say about > Caywood's. All I hear is how great they are, and personally have never heard a > negative word about the Caywood Product. Penny Pincher danny is a stickler for quality and makes some fine guns they are on the edge of being custom guns more than semi production guns---he builds and shipps about 1 gun a day but in order to do that he does a bunch at one time like barrels---100 at a time stocks the same and locks the same---so that he has good controll of the process then the final assembly id just putting in the interchangable parts---in his guns that are in the white he actually assembles the guns then disassembles it and ships it ---he does this to insure proper fit and function--- hope that helps---he has a very high quality product and stands behind his guns as he makes all the parts he pours his own waxes and has a small foundry that is close that does his castings ---all of his castings are lost wax---some of you guys that are building guns should look at the parts as it takes very little finish work to get a quality butplate or trigger guard or side plate and all are engraved so that adds to the charactor of the gun you are making---he has a new pistol that is relly something very period correct and beautiful likes for the time period---he has a web site but does not have a computer to recieve e-mail---hope to fix that for him soon---- Just My Humbel opinion of course---!!!!!!!!!!!! YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "wayne anderson" <wanders66@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rondy dates - oops Date: 11 Aug 2000 15:21:48 GMT Sorry list that MLML rondy response to Snapper was to go off list. Wayne ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 11 Aug 2000 16:47:31 -0500 Hello the list! I now have funds to purchase my first muzzleloader. At my first Rendezvous last April, a kind gentleman allowed me to shoot his .58 caliber Caywood Smoothbore. Although a beautiful gun, it was way too large and heavy for me. I'm looking for a used caplock ML rifle, .45 caliber or less, short barrel. Prefer hook breech, light weight..........and low price. <G> I'm also looking for a used wedge tent in good condition. Any help and advice is appreciated. Thankee kindly, Victoria Contact off list at: vapate@juno.com or texan@cowtown.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 11 Aug 2000 15:29:15 -0700 Victoria, Would you like me to post your inquiry to a list with many more members who might have such a rifle for sale? I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 2:47 PM > > > Hello the list! > > I now have funds to purchase my first muzzleloader. At my first > Rendezvous last April, a kind gentleman allowed me to shoot his > .58 caliber Caywood Smoothbore. Although a beautiful gun, > it was way too large and heavy for me. > > I'm looking for a used caplock ML rifle, .45 caliber or less, short > barrel. Prefer hook breech, light weight..........and low price. <G> > > I'm also looking for a used wedge tent in good condition. > > Any help and advice is appreciated. > Thankee kindly, > Victoria > Contact off list at: > vapate@juno.com or > texan@cowtown.net > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 11 Aug 2000 18:07:36 -0500 On Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:29:15 -0700 "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> writes: > Victoria, > > Would you like me to post your inquiry to a list with many more > members who > might have such a rifle for sale? I remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > Capt. Lahti', I'd be obliged if you would do so. Pleased to hear from a most esteemed member of the MM history list. <G> Thanks, Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 11 Aug 2000 16:36:10 -0700 Victoria, It will be posted shortly. You may or may not get any response but there are around 600 members of the other list and they are all muzzle loaders. Hope it helps. Have you considered making your own little wedge tent? Not a difficult design and it does not need to be made of very heavy material. Something about as strong as pocket drill or mattress ticking would work. Water proof it with bee's wax and corn oil or a modern formula. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 4:07 PM > > > On Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:29:15 -0700 "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> > writes: > > Victoria, > > > > Would you like me to post your inquiry to a list with many more > > members who > > might have such a rifle for sale? I remain..... > > > > YMOS > > Capt. Lahti' > > > Capt. Lahti', > I'd be obliged if you would do so. Pleased to hear from a > most esteemed member of the MM history list. <G> > > Thanks, > Victoria > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 11 Aug 2000 17:23:03 -0700 (PDT) --- Roger Lahti <rtlahti@email.msn.com> wrote: > Victoria, > Have you considered making your own little wedge > tent? Not a difficult design and it does not need to be made of very heavy material. Something about as strong as pocket drill or mattress ticking would work. Water proof it with bee's wax and corn oil or a modern formula. Corn oil? I used linseed oil with raw umber mixed in for color (Spanish Brown?) You serious about corn oil? The edible, incredible wedge tent. OK. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail û Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 11 Aug 2000 18:11:36 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 5:23 PM > Corn oil? I used linseed oil with raw umber mixed in > for color (Spanish Brown?) You serious about corn oil? > The edible, incredible wedge tent. OK. S Jones, Quit serious. I just read about it's use historically in a quote that I think Angela may have passed on to us about how tarps used to protect goods carried via Voyager Canoe/Mackenze boat through Canada were treated. All it said was that the goods were covered with tarps water proofed or treated "with corn oil and animal fats". I too have used the linseed and Burnt Umber oil paint along with bee's wax and it works but seems to give varying results and makes the material heavy and brittle if not done just right. That's why I picked up on the reference to useing corn oil. What kind of oil is used to treat the "oil cloth" used in making Astrailian Drifter Coats, etc.? Corn oil and perhaps some wax to give a bit of body and longevity? Perhaps that is the great secret of the last year of the 20th Century! I'm going to give it a try the next chance I get. I think I will dye the fabric a dark color and then treat it with the oil and wax blended hot. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 11 Aug 2000 18:21:15 -0700 (PDT) > Quit serious. I just read about it's use > historically in a quote that I > think Angela may have passed on to us about how > tarps used to protect goods > carried via Voyager Canoe/Mackenze boat through > Canada were treated. All it > said was that the goods were covered with tarps > water proofed or treated > "with corn oil and animal fats". > What kind of oil is used to > treat the "oil cloth" used > in making Astrailian Drifter Coats, etc.? Corn oil > and perhaps some wax to > give a bit of body and longevity? Perhaps that is > the great secret of the > last year of the 20th Century! > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' Might beat you to it this month, will try it on scraps first. Mazola or Puritan? Much obliged. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail û Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 11 Aug 2000 23:36:49 -0500 On Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:36:10 -0700 "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> writes: > Victoria, > > It will be posted shortly. You may or may not get any response but > there are > around 600 members of the other list and they are all muzzle > loaders. Hope > it helps. Thank you for your thoughtfulness. Surely there is a ml out there that is just right for a small sized Texan. <G> > Have you considered making your own little wedge tent? No sir, I haven't, but I'm not adverse to the idea. After reading your post, I studied a drawing of the wedge tent in my Panther Primitives catalog. I would need to sew grommets to the material, plus I'm sure there are other details I don't know about. Please advise on where to get more data on how to make my own tent. I make bread from scratch, why not a tent? <G> Thank you, Capt. Lahti', Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 11 Aug 2000 22:23:41 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 9:36 PM No sir, I haven't, but I'm not adverse to the idea. After > reading your post, I studied a drawing of the wedge tent > in my Panther Primitives catalog. I would need to sew > grommets to the material, plus I'm sure there are other > details I don't know about. > > Please advise on where to get more data on how to > make my own tent. I make bread from scratch, why > not a tent? <G> Victoria, Can't be that hard. <G> I looked in my "favorites" thinking I remembered a site that had some little info and couldn't find it. You might quiry the list. If you look at someone else's wedge you will see the basic seams that are used and the basic construction particularly where it needs to be reinforced and where tie points need to be. I would stay away from gromets even if you do it correct and sew them in. I find tie points and loops of small line sewn on work great for stakes and such. I have not made a wedge but have made a couple leantos and it really is nothing more than figuring out the shape and how to get that shape out of your material. You use either flat felled seams or simple lapped seams with double row stitiching. The loops are just layed on with the tag ends inward and stitch them down. Nothing to it. Of course I am a man and men make the best sail makers and tailors so you might want to get close to a handy fella to show you the ropes. <G> Naw, you can do it. Have fun and if there really is a question you have just post it to the list and many of us will jump in with ideas that have worked for us. I remain..... YMOs Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith <conchosmith@netscape.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Caywood-C&SM-Coconuts in the new world Date: 12 Aug 2000 06:24:30 EDT Caywood Guns He has a very high quality product and stands behind his guns as he makes= all the parts .......... Just My Humbel opinion of course---!!!!!!!!!!!! YMHOSANT =3D+=3D "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C)= Cover several subjects at once. Caywood Guns Hawk has pretty much said it all about Caywood, have several and would = tell anyone that they are at the top of the line. You did an excellent reply, as usual old friend - good product report. C&SM what's up ! Buck, Did Pablo ever get to Colorado, haven't heard much from either on= e of you guys, plus I needed your fax number and went to the business site Cla= rk & Sons Merc. for it. Low and behold things have changed, now Clark & Son= s Mercantile is located in Houston Texas, all mailing, phone and fax inform= ation is also at the Houston address. What's up brother, are you guys moving o= r is this the reason for you and Pablo being so quite of late, did you sell ou= t ! Coconuts Found a little information on the use of coconut in the F&I War, seem = used more in the Rev and double that usage in the Civil War, like you mentione= d - canteens, containers and bombs - which was interesting. Not much other th= an they would be filled with cannon powder and rolled down a hill into an encampment, bet that was exciting seeing a coconut with a fuse burning ro= lling down a bank into your camp. I'll keep looking for more information, so far nothing that I would tak= e to the bank, poor documentation as we would except for the truth on this lis= t. Take care, let us know what going on. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clark & Sons Mercantile Date: 12 Aug 2000 05:08:26 -0700 On Sat, 12 August 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > > C&SM what's up ! > > Buck, Did Pablo ever get to Colorado, haven't heard much from either one of > you guys, plus I needed your fax number and went to the business site Clark & > Sons Merc. for it. Low and behold things have changed, now Clark & Sons > Mercantile is located in Houston Texas, all mailing, phone and fax information > is also at the Houston address. What's up brother, are you guys moving or is > this the reason for you and Pablo being so quite of late, did you sell out ! > Concho: Interesting that you should ask. Pablo rode in yesterday and we shook hands and I got a few pennies and he got all of the C&SM inventory, web-page, name, etc. He is now on the trail back to Texas with the loot. If you need some prime plunder, waylay him before he gets across the border. He is going to continue C&SM and combine his existing period fishing tackle and his pewter business. Think he will have a new C&SM catalogue in a few months. Watch the web-page as it develops over the next weeks and months: http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ Regards, Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jerry strobel" <kes49@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver traps Date: 12 Aug 2000 17:26:56 GMT Hallo the camp. Can anyone of you pards direct me to anyone who is recreating authentic beaver traps? thank you Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver traps Date: 12 Aug 2000 11:02:38 -0700 On Sat, 12 August 2000, "jerry strobel" wrote: > > Hallo the camp. Can anyone of you pards direct me to anyone who is > recreating authentic beaver traps? thank you Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel. > ________________________________________________________________________ ARROWHEAD FORGE Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jerry strobel" <kes49@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver traps Date: 12 Aug 2000 18:50:42 GMT I was hoping to find arrowhead forge. but can not. can you please be more specific. thank you. Y.M.O.S. jerry strobel. >From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver traps >Date: 12 Aug 2000 11:02:38 -0700 > >On Sat, 12 August 2000, "jerry strobel" wrote: > > > > > Hallo the camp. Can anyone of you pards direct me to anyone who is > > recreating authentic beaver traps? thank you Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel. > > ________________________________________________________________________ >ARROWHEAD FORGE > >Later. >Buck Conner >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ > Aux Aliments de Pays! >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver traps Date: 12 Aug 2000 15:19:41 EDT Jerry, Here is the address/phone info. Can't find a website for them. Arrowhead Forge, R.R. 1, Box 25, Wilmot, SD, Phone: (605) 938-4814 Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver traps Date: 12 Aug 2000 15:46:06 EDT kes49@hotmail.com writes: > Can anyone of you pards direct me to anyone who is > recreating authentic beaver traps? thank you Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel>> The blacksmith at Fort Union was reproducing some a few years ago. We have one in Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks we use for our Mountain Man demos. You might try going through the Fort Union Muzzle Loaders Association. Their website is: http://www.geocities.com/fumla/ YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith <conchosmith@netscape.net> Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Clark & Sons Mercantile] Date: 12 Aug 2000 16:32:27 EDT Buck what are you going to do now that your free again after a half dozen= business in the last thirty years ? Retire and come and bother me or Denn= is, I have a new lady that's hanging around, please call no surprise visits. Concho. Concho Smith wrote: Low and behold things have changed, now Clark & Sons Mercantile is locate= d in Houston Texas, all mailing, phone and fax information is also at the Hous= ton address....... > = Buck Conner wrote: Interesting that you should ask. Pablo rode in yesterday and we shook h= ands and I got a few pennies and he got all of the C&SM inventory, web-page, n= ame, etc. He is now on the trail back to Texas with the loot. If you need so= me prime plunder, waylay him before he gets across the border. He is going to continue C&SM and combine his existing period fishing tac= kle and his pewter business. Think he will have a new C&SM catalogue in a fe= w months. Watch the web-page as it develops over the next weeks and months: http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ Later. Buck = ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Clark & Sons Mercantile] Date: 12 Aug 2000 13:42:54 -0700 On Sat, 12 August 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > > Buck what are you going to do now that your free again after a half dozen > business in the last thirty years ? Retire and come and bother me or Dennis, I > have a new lady that's hanging around, please call no surprise visits. > Concho. > --------------------------------------------- Ding Dong, anybody home, heee heee. Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver traps Date: 12 Aug 2000 17:27:42 -0500 -----Original Message----- >Hallo the camp. Can anyone of you pards direct me to anyone who is >recreating authentic beaver traps? thank you Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel. Here is another maker: Rocky Fork Rifle and Trap Works box 1552 Red Lodge, Montana 59068 406-446-3717 northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Contact. Date: 12 Aug 2000 17:01:53 -0700 Ad Miller, Please contact me off line. John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James Zeigler" <slzeigle@sunlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver traps Date: 12 Aug 2000 20:19:30 -0400 > Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver traps > > > >Hallo the camp. Can anyone of you pards direct me to anyone who is > >recreating authentic beaver traps? thank you Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel. Jerry: In my humble opinion Rod Douglas makes the best,authentic traps around. He can be reached at ; 127 Cobbler Vlg. Ln. Kalispell, Montana. 59901. Tell him I said hello....Jim z ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver traps Date: 12 Aug 2000 17:35:33 -0700 I'll vote for Rod. Have seen his traps and they compare beautifully to the originals. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 5:19 PM > > > Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver traps > > > > > > >Hallo the camp. Can anyone of you pards direct me to anyone who is > > >recreating authentic beaver traps? thank you Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel. > > Jerry: > In my humble opinion Rod Douglas makes the best,authentic > traps around. He can be reached at ; 127 Cobbler Vlg. Ln. > Kalispell, Montana. 59901. Tell him I said hello....Jim z > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver traps Date: 12 Aug 2000 19:46:54 -0600 Rod Douglas does make some mighty fine traps, I'll give him that. There's also a fellow here in Utah that makes nice hand forged traps. Allen Hall donated one of them to the museum. Perhaps Allen can remember the mans name, or at least can get it. As I recall, these particular traps cost around $125.00 each, which I believe is one of the better deals you're likely to find. Prices are high, that's why my friends and I are treying to make our own. "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 12 Aug 2000 20:13:43 -0600 Capt. Lahti wrote: >> I just read about it's use historically in a quote that I think Angela may have passed on to us about how tarps used to protect goods carried via Voyager Canoe/Mackenze boat through Canada were treated. All it said was that the goods were covered with tarps water proofed or treated "with corn oil and animal fats".<< Yikes! When was that?! It must have been quite a while ago, because I don't remember anything about it, and I would expect to. I think I might have posted, quite a while ago, a note to the effect that oilcloth was routinely used by voyageurs, with some documentation, but I don't recall ever reading anything about how the oilcloth was made. Maybe it's that K.R.A.F.T. disease I've been hearing about? Your perplexed yet humble and obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 12 Aug 2000 20:51:45 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1980 7:13 PM I think I might have > posted, quite a while ago, a note to the effect that oilcloth was routinely > used by voyageurs, with some documentation, but I don't recall ever reading > anything about how the oilcloth was made. Maybe it's that K.R.A.F.T. > disease I've been hearing about? > > Your perplexed yet humble and obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred Angela, May not have been your post but it was a quote from some British Explorer and likely something you would have cotributed. I will go back through my messages and see if I can find it. Stand by. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 12 Aug 2000 20:58:55 -0700 Angela, Can't find it in my latest messages and I know I read it within the past couple weeks so I think it was in T&LR or Muzzle Loader. I will look. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1980 7:13 PM > Capt. Lahti wrote: > >> I just read about it's use historically in a quote that I > think Angela may have passed on to us about how tarps used to protect goods > carried via Voyager Canoe/Mackenze boat through Canada were treated. All it > said was that the goods were covered with tarps water proofed or treated > "with corn oil and animal fats".<< > > Yikes! When was that?! It must have been quite a while ago, because I don't > remember anything about it, and I would expect to. I think I might have > posted, quite a while ago, a note to the effect that oilcloth was routinely > used by voyageurs, with some documentation, but I don't recall ever reading > anything about how the oilcloth was made. Maybe it's that K.R.A.F.T. > disease I've been hearing about? > > Your perplexed yet humble and obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 12 Aug 2000 21:13:39 -0700 Angela and Gentlemen, OK, here's the quote and it comes from the July/August issue of Muzzle Loader Magazine, page 38, middle paragraph of the article "Alexander Mackenzie Searches for the Northwest Passage, Part 1" by Tony Hunter. Hunter is explaining how Mackenzie had taken such great pains to make sure all his bases were covered on this particular expedition and he is talking about all the contents of the cargo that went into four large canoes. "Ninety pound pieces of pemmican and others of jerked venison and parched corn provided an adequate food supply. The cargoes were covered with cloths soaked in corn oil and animal fat to make them waterproof" (Vail 35-36). That's what I am going by. I presume Vail was a trustworthy reporter and got it right. Don't know who Vail is by the way. Sorry for dragging you into this Angela. <G> I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Water Proofing Date: 12 Aug 2000 23:40:50 -0500 Capt. L, I wonder what these tarps smelled like after the oil and fat got rancid? Also wondering how long before the corn oil and fat mixture started rotting the material? Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Vail Date: 12 Aug 2000 23:54:13 -0500 Capt. L, According to the bibliography for Hunter's article in Muzzleloader Mag, Phillip Vail wrote "The Magnificant Adventures of Alexander Mackenzie", published in 1964. Wonder where he got his information if not from Mackenzie's journals? Guess we would have to dig up a copy of Vail's book and look at his footnotes and the bibliography for that book? YMOS, Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Water Proofing Date: 12 Aug 2000 22:05:22 -0700 Harddog, Don't know but it will be worth experimenting to find out. Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 9:40 PM > Capt. L, > I wonder what these tarps smelled like after the oil and fat got rancid? > Also wondering how long before the corn oil and fat mixture started rotting > the material? > Randy Hedden > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vail Date: 12 Aug 2000 22:19:21 -0700 Harddog, Sounds like the way to go. Got a copy? Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 9:54 PM > Capt. L, > > According to the bibliography for Hunter's article in Muzzleloader Mag, > Phillip Vail wrote "The Magnificant Adventures of Alexander Mackenzie", > published in 1964. Wonder where he got his information if not from > Mackenzie's journals? Guess we would have to dig up a copy of Vail's book > and look at his footnotes and the bibliography for that book? > > YMOS, > > Randy Hedden > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Water Proofing Date: 13 Aug 2000 00:18:24 -0500 Capt. L, Nope, don't have a copy of Vail's book or of Mackenzie's journals. YMOS, Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: russia sheeting Date: 12 Aug 2000 23:19:57 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C004B3.D490F260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable what exactly is russia sheeting ? cotton? linen? also how heavy was = it compared to modern canvas duct? thanks tom ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C004B3.D490F260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#f0e8d8><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>what exactly is = russia sheeting=20 ? cotton? linen? also how heavy was it compared to = modern=20 canvas duct? thanks =20 tom</FONT></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C004B3.D490F260-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting Date: 13 Aug 2000 01:06:55 -0500 Tom, Russia sheeting was/is twilled, hemp linen material, (sailcloth), and apparently came in various weights or thicknesses as various inventory lists and bills of sale show russia sheeting that was used to make tents and cargo covers as well as russia sheeting that was used to make military packs and trousers, much like cotton duck comes in various weights today depending on intended use. YMOS, Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 13 Aug 2000 09:28:25 EDT In an earlier message, Roger Lahti writes: << Water proof it with bee's wax and corn oil or a modern formula. >> I dunno folks. Last winter in deer camp I saw first hand just how fast a canvas tent can go up in flames when my buddy crawled out from under it in just the nick of time. Making the burn down time increase does not seem like sound advice. Just food for thought. I'm all for using period methods in most cases, but there are times when I must consider the safety factor. I'd go with a modern water proof myself. Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert M Keefe <doctarie@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 13 Aug 2000 10:09:39 -0400 > > Hello to all on the list. I have a problem I'm sure has come up > from > > time to time for someone on this list. I recently bought a used > panther > > 14x10 wall tent that had ben power washed with degreaser. > > you need to get the degreaser off. It is decreasing the surface > tension of > the water. Try washing the tent, first in soap, then a time or two > in plain > water, (you must get all the soap off first) THEN try water proofing > it > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Does anyone else on the list have any thoughts , views, opinions, ect. on this subject ? I have washed the tent very well and put the canvac on with a pump sprayer , do you think it would be better to brush or roll on ? I'm really lost for an answer Lightning ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting Date: 13 Aug 2000 14:40:35 GMT what exactly is russia sheeting ? cotton? linen? also how heavy was it compared to modern canvas duct? thanks tom As was previously mentioned Russia Sheeting is made of hemp...I'm not sure if it fell thru or not but Sharon Brown of Whitehall MT was working on getting some for sale here in the states...I understand it's pretty pricey to import...you could give her a call or write her at Couturiere De Victoriana 209 N. Whitehall St PO Box 651 Whitehall MT 59759 406 287 9233 fax 406 494 5938...Sharon carries ALOT of good period material at good prices so if you're looking..... Sincerely, Scott McMahon mountedranger@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Before our time BUT... Date: 13 Aug 2000 08:50:17 -0700 (PDT) From another forum I belong to, this on ╓tzis' ax head. Would you care to comment? "That copper axe head is a wonder. On a UK documentary they tried to make a replica within a modern metallurgical lab. They couldn't get close to its quality. No doubt modern engineers could replicate it with time but they were dumbfounded how it could be achieved with "primitive" methods. Its discovery has lead to a complete rewriting of the history books on when the copper age may have started. Its nice to have these mysteries. I think we are losing our way really not blazing a new trail. " To me, this loosens the listers' strict adherence to documented authenication. Not saying that anything goes, just saying that they seem brighter than us now. On a side note , according to the Bible, the Ark of the Covenant is built along the lines of a capacitor. Some western Native American tribes had the makings of a battery. Wild West, anyone? ===== defstones In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird. Now the world is weird, and people take Prozac to make it normal! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail û Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Before our time BUT... Date: 13 Aug 2000 12:01:07 -0500 -----Original Message----- >>From another forum I belong to, this on =D6tzis' ax >head. Would you care to comment? Not really appropriate disscussion for this forum in my opinion but I hav= e to ask who is Otsi? >"That copper axe head is a wonder. On a UK documentary >they tried to make a replica within a modern >metallurgical lab. They couldn't get close to its >quality. No doubt modern engineers could replicate it >with time but they were dumbfounded how it could be >achieved with "primitive" methods. Why is the axe a wonder? Why couldn't they get close to it's quality? Mak= ing an axe out of copper doesn't require anything more than "primitive technology" to my knowledge. Its discovery has >lead to a complete rewriting of the history books on >when the copper age may have started. I have books that are over 100 years old that speculate on the north american copper age being thousands of years old. It's been widely accept= ed since the 1950s' that people have been utilizing copper in N. America for several thousand years. Many archeologist who study the matter have known for years that evidence exists which indicates its use for 10,000 or more years. Whats mysterious about that? northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry R. Koenig" <trkoenig@pvtnetworks.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting Date: 13 Aug 2000 12:23:11 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C00521.3EC484E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom: The Spring 1988 issue of "The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" (Vol. = 24, No. 1 ) has an excellent 2 page article, on the manufacture, and use = of oilcloth/Russia Sheeting. Terry R. Koenig ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C00521.3EC484E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =FF=FE<=00!=00D=00O=00C=00T=00Y=00P=00E=00 =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =00P=00U=00B=00L=00I=00C=00 = =00"=00-=00/=00/=00W=003=00C=00/=00/=00D=00T=00D=00 =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =004=00.=000=00 = =00T=00r=00a=00n=00s=00i=00t=00i=00o=00n=00a=00l=00/=00/=00E=00N=00"=00>=00= =0D=00=0A= =00<=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00<=00H=00E=00A=00D=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00t=00e=00x=00t=00/=00h=00t=00m=00= l=00;=00 = =00c=00h=00a=00r=00s=00e=00t=00=3D=00u=00n=00i=00c=00o=00d=00e=00"=00 = =00h=00t=00t=00p=00-=00e=00q=00u=00i=00v=00=3D=00C=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00= t=00-=00T=00y=00p=00e=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00M=00S=00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =005=00.=000=000=00.=002=007=002=002=00.=002=008=000=000=00"=00 = =00n=00a=00m=00e=00=3D=00G=00E=00N=00E=00R=00A=00T=00O=00R=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00S=00T=00Y=00L=00E=00>=00<=00/=00S=00T=00Y=00L=00E=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00/=00H=00E=00A=00D=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00B=00O=00D=00Y=00 = =00b=00g=00C=00o=00l=00o=00r=00=3D=00#=00f=00f=00f=00f=00f=00f=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00F=00O=00N=00T=00 = =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00T=00o=00m=00:=00<=00/=00F=00O=00N=00T=00= >=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D= =00=0A= =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00F=00O=00N=00T=00 = =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00T=00h=00e=00 = =00S=00p=00r=00i=00n=00g=00 =001=009=008=008=00 =00i=00s=00s=00u=00e=00 = =00o=00f=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00"=00T=00h=00e=00 = =00M=00u=00s=00e=00u=00m=00 =00o=00f=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 =00F=00u=00r=00 = =00T=00r=00a=00d=00e=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00Q=00u=00a=00r=00t=00e=00r=00l=00y=00"=00 =00(=00V=00o=00l=00.=00 = =002=004=00,=00 =00N=00o=00.=00 =001=00 =00)=00 =00h=00a=00s=00 = =00a=00n=00 =00e=00x=00c=00e=00l=00l=00e=00n=00t=00 =002=00 = =00p=00a=00g=00e=00 =00a=00r=00t=00i=00c=00l=00e=00,=00 =00o=00n=00 = =00t=00h=00e=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00m=00a=00n=00u=00f=00a=00c=00t=00u=00r=00e=00,=00 =00a=00n=00d=00 = =00u=00s=00e=00 =00o=00f=00 = =00o=00i=00l=00c=00l=00o=00t=00h=00/=00R=00u=00s=00s=00i=00a=00 = =00S=00h=00e=00e=00t=00i=00n=00g=00.=00<=00/=00F=00O=00N=00T=00>=00<=00/=00= D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D= =00=0A= =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00F=00O=00N=00T=00 = =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00T=00e=00r=00r=00y=00 =00R=00.=00 = =00K=00o=00e=00n=00i=00g=00<=00/=00F=00O=00N=00T=00>=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00= >=00<=00/=00B=00O=00D=00Y=00>=00<=00/=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00 ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C00521.3EC484E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: russia sheeting Date: 13 Aug 2000 12:39:05 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C00523.776CFF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I should have known it was hemp. I also should have checked the = archives. thanks, list mates for all the good imfo. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C00523.776CFF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#f0e8d8> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I should have known it was hemp. = I also=20 should have checked the archives. thanks, list mates for all the = good=20 imfo.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C00523.776CFF00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 13 Aug 2000 12:13:57 -0700 Longshot, Just for what it's worth, as a retired Fire Capt. I can assure you that there are very few water proofing treatments (and that are effective) that you can use that are not going to increase the flammability/combustibility of canvas. You can buy a canvas that has been commercially treated though I don't know where you get it. I know that flannel intended for children's sleep wear is so treated and will not support combustion (the flame dies out on it's own, without a flame from some other source to keep it burning). But whatever, there is no substitute for good common sense and safety. Most if not all the cases of lodges or etc. burning up were the result of some pretty stupid actions as is usually the case. Your free to do as you wish. I'll take appropriate steps and not worry about it. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting Date: 13 Aug 2000 12:22:03 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C00521.16874F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Terry, I don't have that issue. Before my time as a subscriber. Can you = condense the process down to the basics for us? Capt. L ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Terry R. Koenig=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 11:23 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting Tom: The Spring 1988 issue of "The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" (Vol. = 24, No. 1 ) has an excellent 2 page article, on the manufacture, and use = of oilcloth/Russia Sheeting. Terry R. Koenig ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C00521.16874F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =FF=FE<=00!=00D=00O=00C=00T=00Y=00P=00E=00 =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =00P=00U=00B=00L=00I=00C=00 = =00"=00-=00/=00/=00W=003=00C=00/=00/=00D=00T=00D=00 =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =004=00.=000=00 = =00T=00r=00a=00n=00s=00i=00t=00i=00o=00n=00a=00l=00/=00/=00E=00N=00"=00>=00= =0D=00=0A= =00<=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00<=00H=00E=00A=00D=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00t=00e=00x=00t=00/=00h=00t=00m=00= l=00;=00 = =00c=00h=00a=00r=00s=00e=00t=00=3D=00u=00n=00i=00c=00o=00d=00e=00"=00 = =00h=00t=00t=00p=00-=00e=00q=00u=00i=00v=00=3D=00C=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00= t=00-=00T=00y=00p=00e=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00M=00S=00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =005=00.=000=000=00.=002=007=002=002=00.=002=008=000=000=00"=00 = 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=00K=00o=00e=00n=00i=00g=00<=00/=00F=00O=00N=00T=00>=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00= >=00<=00/=00B=00L=00O=00C=00K=00Q=00U=00O=00T=00E=00>=00<=00/=00B=00O=00D= =00Y=00>=00<=00/=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00 ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C00521.16874F80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 13 Aug 2000 19:55:19 EDT I'd suggest you contact Panther Primitives and ask them. Also, they sell fire retardant treated canvas. Barney <A HREF="http://www.catalogcity.com/ViewCover.cfm?VID=150674">Panther Primitives< /A> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting Date: 13 Aug 2000 21:42:01 EDT There is an article in the Museum of the Fur Trade (Vol. 24, No.1. pp. 1-3) that was previoulsy mentioned in this string. That article does NOT use the word hemp at all in the entire article! According to that article, "Russia sheeting was a coarse, heavy linen cloth." It doesn't get much clearer than that. Hemp is very costly and, while it may be a period fabric, not everything has to be made from it. Now, linen isn't exactly cheap, but it is more affordable and more available than hemp. Jim Hardee, AMM #1676 P.O. box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Murdered & Pillaged Americans, 1810 Date: 13 Aug 2000 19:43:23 -0600 Here are a couple more items I found in my reading of the journal of Alexander Henry the Younger, for the winter of 1810-1811, at Rocky Mountain House (at present-day Rocky Mountain House, Alberta, Canada). I thought list members might be able to tell me what incidents from the summer of 1810 are being described here, or just be interested in a different perspective: "...a party of their [Fall Indians'] Country men were just returned from the war upon the Crow Mountain Indians, where they had fought a Battle with their enemies upon the Yellow Stone River, where they had also seen a Fort which they supposed was occupied by the Americans...During the head of the battle the Crow Mountain Indians called out to them that in future they would save them the trouble of coming to war upon them, that the ensuing Summer they would in company with the Americans go to war upon them and find them out upon the banks of the Saskatchwoine [N. Saskatchewan R.]. Arms and Ammunition they were not in want of. Their traders had good hearts towards them and never rendered them pitiful &c &c." (Gough 2:533) "Last Summer these people [Gros Ventres] upon a War excursion fell upon a party of Americans or Freemen from the Isbenois [Illinois]; they confess to have murdered them all, and brought away a considerable booty in utencils Beaver Skins &c. Some of the Beaver Skins I observed were marked, Valley and Jnumell with different numbers 8, 15 &c." (Gough 2:545) "The Blood Indians [part of the Blackfoot Confederacy--A.G.] had been at War upon the Missouri nearly about the same time the Fall Indians. They also fell upon a party of Americans and murdered the whole of them, and brought away a considerable Booty consisting of Goods of various kinds such as fine cotton shirts, Beaver Traps, Hats, Knives, Dirks, Handkerchiefs, Russie Sheeting Tents, and a number of Bank notes, some signed and others not, New Jersey and Trenton Banking Company. From the description the Blood Indians give of the dress and behaviour, one of the party whom they murdered must have been an Officer [i.e. management-level guy, not a military officer--A.G.] or a Trader. They say he killed two Blood Indians, before he fell." (Gough 2:545-546) Any thoughts? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" <hunter1828@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Union Fur Trade Symposium 2000 Date: 14 Aug 2000 01:54:30 GMT Greetings to the list, It has come to our attention at Fort Union that some of you that are interested in attending the Symposium in September may have some slight misunderstandings about the Living History event that will accompany the symposium. We at Fort Union Trading Post National Historic Site put together a list of living history people and invited them to attend and take part in the event. Those folks receive free admission to the symposium for their parts in the symposium. If you weren't invited it means you will have to register and pay the $100.00 registration fee to attend the symposium. We don't want to discourage anyone from attending, or even participating, but at this late date we cannot give anymore invitations to take part in the living history event. If you have any questions about the symposium, contact me at my personal e-mail address (not via the list) or call me at Fort Union at (701) 572-9083. Historically yours, Robert W. Thomson PS -- To any and all that know Bruce "Spoon" Druliner, he says to say hello! "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 13 Aug 2000 18:55:53 -0700 On Sun, 13 August 2000, LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > > I'd suggest you contact Panther Primitives and ask them. Also, they sell > fire retardant treated canvas. Barney <A Capt L. has mentioned waterproofing and fire retardent canvas - it's dangers and good qualities before, and with his background I would believe him over a sales promotion saying it's safe. What's that old saying, "never heard a huskers cry rotten fish". Roger give us a lesson on some of these products that are shown in a number of the trade magazines. Take care, Daniel "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor ______________________________________ Historical Research & Development ______________________________________ "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production." ______________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting Date: 13 Aug 2000 21:03:35 -0500 Jim, In the 1700's and 1800's linen was made from flax, which is the linen we are familiar with today, but linen was also made from hemp. Hemp in those days was grown in many parts of the U.S. Russia sheeting, (twilled hemp linen or sail cloth), was generally made from hemp during the time period and was readily available and cheap, unlike today when the sutlers want an arm and a leg for it. Russia sheeting is not the same as canvas, which was also made from hemp, because it was a twilled material. Twilled material is woven much tighter than canvas. Twilled material shows a diagonal raised pattern in the material. This twilled effect in material is actually like double thickness. Randy Hedden AMM #1393 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 13 Aug 2000 19:12:15 -0700 On Sun, 13 August 2000, Concho wrote: > Capt L. has mentioned waterproofing and fire retardent canvas - it's dangers and good qualities before, and with his background I would believe him over a sales promotion saying it's safe. What's that old saying, "never heard a huskers cry rotten fish". > > Roger give us a lesson on some of these products that are shown in a number of the trade magazines. > > > Take care, > Daniel "Concho" Smith > Historical Advisor > ______________________________________ > Historical Research & Development > ______________________________________ > "Research & field trials in the manner of > our forefathers, before production." > ______________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I had a Panther Primitives fire retardant canvas that was about 5 years old, been cared for in the usual manner, in good condition. Remember Concho how that baby went up in smoke on the Upper Missouri one night from a spark from a camp fire, fast enough that it burned a hole 2' in dia. before we could get it out. Talked to Sam about this at Panther, he never did figure out why that happened, old age or faulty material ? Becareful with any of the yard goods around your fire, treated or not. Hey Concho see you got that job by the information after your name, good deal - you'll be a great addition to those people. Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 13 Aug 2000 22:23:42 -0700 The problem is that he used a degreaser. The chemical Canvac or any repellent will have a problem adhering to the surface. Your might want to soak the whole tent in the water repellent. Spraying on the surface may not stick. Also make sure it is a hot day, as these are paraffin based and need to be hot to soak in. Panther and all the other tipi manufacturers use an already treated canvas and do not apply surface chemicals. Another is to talk to boat/canvas people and see what they might use after washing their sails. And talk to those who use canvas for sails and not nylon or synthetic materials. Linda Holley LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > I'd suggest you contact Panther Primitives and ask them. Also, they sell > fire retardant treated canvas. Barney <A > HREF="http://www.catalogcity.com/ViewCover.cfm?VID=150674">Panther Primitives< > /A> > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 13 Aug 2000 22:23:41 EDT In a message dated 8/13/00 7:13:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, buck.conner@uswestmail.net writes: > I had a Panther Primitives fire retardant canvas that was about 5 years old, > been cared for in the usual manner, in good condition. Remember Concho how > that baby went up in smoke on the Upper Missouri one night from a spark from > a camp fire, Thanks Buck. Hmmmm. That was definitely enlightening. I'm thinkin' I been placing too much reliance on the 'fire-retardant' tag. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 13 Aug 2000 20:08:18 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 6:55 PM > Roger give us a lesson on some of these products that are shown in a number of the trade magazines. Concho, I presume you speak to me? <G> FWIW, if your buying tentage or yardage from a reputable dealer like Panther Primitives or RK, etc. and they list an item as fire retardant, what they are saying is that the material will not support Combustion. That does not mean it won't burn or that you can't put a hole in it with a hot spark, just that if you put flame to it and it starts to burn (which it will) and you pull the flame away, the material will self extinguish. In any case I would feel safe relying on what they advertise as the properties of the material they use. If a company is offering a "fire proof" material, it must surely be asbestos or metal because most of the synthetic and natural materials will burn and thus can not be claimed to be "fire proof". I would be very skeptical of any such claims. I am not aware of any material that we can afford that will not burn. Kevlar and "Nomex" (a brand name) exibit "fire proof" properties but they are not suitable for what we do by price alone, not to mention with respect to authenticity. There is no home treatment that we can apply that will render a combustible fabric totally fire retardent or fire proof although natural material treated with borax will be some what harder to ignite. For my part as a fire fighter, I take precautions to be as save as I can when using flame or heat of any kind. My lodge is around 25 years old and untreated and all my various leanto's and bed rolls are untreated though some have been impregnated with various oils and wax's in an attempt to make them more servicable in wet weather. I have never had a problem with any of them relavent to fire other than perhaps burning a small hole in my linseed/bees wax treated muslin bed roll cover or holes in my Thompsons treated "first" leanto. They did not burst into flame but rather started a glowing hole that required only the swift application of a smothering action on my part to extinguish. Keep it away from the camp fire. Watch for sparks from sparking wood. Watch where you hang a candle. Don't make the lodge fire too big. Be aware, be safe. End of lesson. Hope that was what you were looking for. <G> I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 13 Aug 2000 20:18:01 -0700 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I had a Panther Primitives fire retardant canvas that was about 5 years old, been cared for in the usual manner, in good condition. Remember Concho how that baby went up in smoke on the Upper Missouri one night from a spark from a camp fire, fast enough that it burned a hole 2' in dia. before we could get it out. > > Talked to Sam about this at Panther, he never did figure out why that happened, old age or faulty material ? Becareful with any of the yard goods around your fire, treated or not. Friends, Personal experience speeks lowder than my opinion. Take care and be skeptical of claims. Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 14 Aug 2000 04:58:23 -0700 Thank you, you came through again old friend. > > Roger give us a lesson on some of these products that are shown in a > number of the trade magazines. > > Concho, > > I presume you speak to me? <G> FWIW, if your buying tentage or yardage from > a reputable dealer like Panther Primitives or RK, etc. and they list an item > as fire retardant, what they are saying is that the material will not > support > Combustion. That does not mean it won't burn or that you can't put a hole in > it with a hot spark, just that if you put flame to it and it starts to burn > (which it will) and you pull the flame away, the material will self > extinguish. In any case I would feel safe relying on what they advertise as > the properties of the material they use. > > If a company is offering a "fire proof" material, it must surely be asbestos > or metal because most of the synthetic and natural materials will burn and > thus can not be claimed to be "fire proof". I would be very skeptical of any > such claims. I am not aware of any material that we can afford that will > not burn. Kevlar and "Nomex" (a brand name) exibit "fire proof" properties > but they are not suitable for what we do by price alone, not to mention with > respect to authenticity. > > There is no home treatment that we can apply that will render a combustible > fabric totally fire retardent or fire proof although natural material > treated with borax will be some what harder to ignite. > > For my part as a fire fighter, I take precautions to be as save as I can > when using flame or heat of any kind. My lodge is around 25 years old and > untreated and all my various leanto's and bed rolls are untreated though > some have been impregnated with various oils and wax's in an attempt to make > them more servicable in wet weather. I have never had a problem with any of > them relavent to fire other than perhaps burning a small hole in my > linseed/bees wax treated muslin bed roll cover or holes in my Thompsons > treated "first" leanto. They did not burst into flame but rather started a > glowing hole that required only the swift application of a smothering action > on my part to extinguish. > > Keep it away from the camp fire. Watch for sparks from sparking wood. Watch > where you hang a candle. Don't make the lodge fire too big. Be aware, be > safe. End of lesson. Hope that was what you were looking for. <G> I > remain.... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Do it right or forget, Daniel "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor ______________________________________ Historical Research & Development ______________________________________ "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production." ______________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 14 Aug 2000 05:03:24 -0700 > Hey Concho see you got that job by the information after your name, good deal - you'll be a great addition to those people. > > > > Take care, > Buck Conner > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, not bragging but they fell at my feet when I excepted there offer and agreed to think of moving back to the mid-west. Hee Hee <GR> Will miss PA and the old fort sites we would travel to when you where here years ago. Do it right or forget, Daniel "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor ______________________________________ Historical Research & Development ______________________________________ "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production." ______________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 14 Aug 2000 07:52:04 -0500 A while back, I did a burn test of untreated canvas, canvas treated with the wood preservative (like Thompsons), and canvas treated with paraffin disolved in naptha. The naptha was allowed to vaporize, leaving only the paiffin. I hanged strips of the materials and lit the bottom with a match and measured the time it took for the strip to be completely involved in fire. The results were about the same for the three samples. They ALL burned like blazes! So far I have been pretty lucky. I have only burned down one canvas tent. ;-) Glenn Darilek Iron Burner >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge >Does anyone else on the list have any thoughts , views, opinions, ect. >on this subject ? Lightning ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 14 Aug 2000 07:50:00 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 4:58 AM > Thank you, you came through again old friend. Concho, My pleasure. Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 14 Aug 2000 08:05:19 -0600 >>OK, here's the quote and it comes from the July/August issue of Muzzle Loader Magazine, page 38, middle paragraph of the article "Alexander Mackenzie Searches for the Northwest Passage, Part 1" by Tony Hunter. <snip> "Ninety pound pieces of pemmican and others of jerked venison and parched corn provided an adequate food supply. The cargoes were covered with cloths soaked in corn oil and animal fat to make them waterproof" (Vail 35-36)<< Well, this is shaping up to be a classic example of why you have to go to the primary source. I've read Mackenzie's journals, and I'm pretty sure all he does is mention "oilcloth"--he never describes how his oilcloths were treated. Presumably that was done back in England, since I've never seen a description of oilcloth-making in the other Canadian fur trade journals I've read. Indeed, I'd be very interested in any mention of corn oil in my period (1774-1821), since I'm also interested in food. In short, I think Vail goofed; perhaps he was using a late 19th-century formula for waterproofing in a late 18th-century context. As for Tony Hunter, I was a bit surprised and disappointed by his bibiliography. Sure, biographies of Mackenzie can shed more light on the man, but why didn't he read Mackenzie's own journals? It's not like they're inaccessible; in fact, the entire text of the original printing is available online at www.canadiana.org, and there are countless paper editions, including the 1970 one that sits on my shelf. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 14 Aug 2000 11:59:15 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, August 14, 1980 7:05 AM > Well, this is shaping up to be a classic example of why you have to go to > the primary source. I've read Mackenzie's journals, and I'm pretty sure all > he does is mention "oilcloth"--he never describes how his oilcloths were > treated. Angela, Thanks to you (almost a primary source in and of yourself <G>) we are getting closer to the truth. It would be interesting to learn just what was used. Presumably that was done back in England, since I've never seen a > description of oilcloth-making in the other Canadian fur trade journals > I've read. Indeed, I'd be very interested in any mention of corn oil in my > period (1774-1821), since I'm also interested in food. In short, I think > Vail goofed; perhaps he was using a late 19th-century formula for > waterproofing in a late 18th-century context. So your saying that Vail goofed in what he aledges Alexander actually did or reported? Wonder where he got the idea? On the face of it, the use of corn oil or something similar including animal fat seems to be a very likely candidate for the actual process since it is called "oil cloth" and from personal experience, linseed oil is not the best of materials to use since it dries so hard unless thinned or mixed with another material like Bee's Wax. With the talk of russia sheeting, I'm wondering if it was treated with anything or was just a tight woven material as discribed? > > As for Tony Hunter, I was a bit surprised and disappointed by his > bibiliography. Sure, biographies of Mackenzie can shed more light on the > man, but why didn't he read Mackenzie's own journals? It's not like they're > inaccessible; in fact, the entire text of the original printing is > available online at www.canadiana.org, and there are countless paper > editions, including the 1970 one that sits on my shelf. Would a freference to the corn oil have been in those journals? Hunter or Vail may leave clues to what part of the journals they were referencing and that may narrow down locating such a passage mentioning the subject of our curiousity. Perhaps I'll find time to look over the online original printiing as you have offered. Thanks again for keeping us on the narrow path. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry R. Koenig" <trkoenig@pvtnetworks.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 14 Aug 2000 13:58:15 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C005F7.B17575E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Angela: Good piece of research. . . going to the primary source, and getting the = story straight - a practice we all should get into a habit of doing more = often. As to the manufacture of oil cloth, the Spring "88" issue of the "Museum = of the Fur Trade Quarterly" states that the making of oil cloth dates = back to about 1740. It notes that a linen piece of cloth of the proper = dimension was placed in a moveable vertical frame, so the material could = be stretched. It was first coated with a sizing solution on both sides, = rubbed smooth with a pumice block while still wet. After dry, two coats = of paint applied to each side. The first coat as thick as molasses using = linseed oil and paint pigments with very little turpentine. This was = smoothed out with a long, narrow tapering trowel. When this was dry a = more fluid second coat was applied with a brush. For the primary sources on the above information, the Quarterly = references: "The Textile Manufactures of Great Britain," by George Dodd, London, = 1845. "The American Dictionary of Commerce," by L. De Coianga, Boston, 1880. Terry R. Koenig ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C005F7.B17575E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Angela:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Good piece of research. . . going to the primary = source, and=20 getting the story straight - a practice we all should get into = a habit=20 of doing more often.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>As to the manufacture of oil cloth, the Spring "88" = issue of=20 the "Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" states that the making of = oil cloth=20 dates back to about 1740. It notes that a linen piece of cloth of the = proper=20 dimension was placed in a moveable vertical frame, so the material could = be=20 stretched. It was first coated with a sizing solution on both sides, = rubbed=20 smooth with a pumice block while still wet. After dry, two coats of = paint=20 applied to each side. The first coat as thick as molasses using linseed = oil and=20 paint pigments with very little turpentine. This was smoothed out with a = long,=20 narrow tapering trowel. When this was dry a more fluid second coat was = applied=20 with a brush.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>For the primary sources on the above information, = the=20 Quarterly references:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"The Textile Manufactures of Great Britain," by = George Dodd,=20 London, 1845.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"The American Dictionary of Commerce," by L. De = Coianga,=20 Boston, 1880.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Terry R. Koenig</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C005F7.B17575E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 14 Aug 2000 13:13:54 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C005F1.7F11BCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for sharing that Terry. Capt. L ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Terry R. Koenig=20 To: MtMan List=20 Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 12:58 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Angela: Good piece of research. . . going to the primary source, and getting = the story straight - a practice we all should get into a habit of doing = more often. As to the manufacture of oil cloth, the Spring "88" issue of the = "Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" states that the making of oil cloth = dates back to about 1740. It notes that a linen piece of cloth of the = proper dimension was placed in a moveable vertical frame, so the = material could be stretched. It was first coated with a sizing solution = on both sides, rubbed smooth with a pumice block while still wet. After = dry, two coats of paint applied to each side. The first coat as thick as = molasses using linseed oil and paint pigments with very little = turpentine. This was smoothed out with a long, narrow tapering trowel. = When this was dry a more fluid second coat was applied with a brush. For the primary sources on the above information, the Quarterly = references: "The Textile Manufactures of Great Britain," by George Dodd, London, = 1845. "The American Dictionary of Commerce," by L. De Coianga, Boston, 1880. Terry R. Koenig ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C005F1.7F11BCE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks for sharing that Terry. Capt. L</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A href=3D"mailto:trkoenig@pvtnetworks.net" = title=3Dtrkoenig@pvtnetworks.net>Terry=20 R. Koenig</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>MtMan List</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 14, 2000 = 12:58=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: = Muzzleloader</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Angela:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Good piece of research. . . going to the primary = source, and=20 getting the story straight - a practice we all should get = into a=20 habit of doing more often.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>As to the manufacture of oil cloth, the Spring = "88" issue of=20 the "Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" states that the making of = oil=20 cloth dates back to about 1740. It notes that a linen piece of cloth = of the=20 proper dimension was placed in a moveable vertical frame, so the = material=20 could be stretched. It was first coated with a sizing solution on both = sides,=20 rubbed smooth with a pumice block while still wet. After dry, two = coats of=20 paint applied to each side. The first coat as thick as molasses using = linseed=20 oil and paint pigments with very little turpentine. This was smoothed = out with=20 a long, narrow tapering trowel. When this was dry a more fluid second = coat was=20 applied with a brush.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>For the primary sources on the above information, = the=20 Quarterly references:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"The Textile Manufactures of Great Britain," by = George Dodd,=20 London, 1845.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"The American Dictionary of Commerce," by L. De = Coianga,=20 Boston, 1880.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Terry R. = Koenig</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C005F1.7F11BCE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael W. Finnie" <mwf1@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re:oilclothe thots Date: 14 Aug 2000 14:51:34 -0700 >On the face of it, the use of corn oil or something similar including animal >fat seems to be a very likely candidate for the actual process since it is >called "oil cloth" and from personal experience, linseed oil is not the best >of materials to use since it dries so hard unless thinned or mixed with >another material like Bee's Wax. wasn't sperm[whale] oil used for purt' near everything back then? respectfully, mike ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Butch Wright" <bwright01@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:oilclothe thots Date: 14 Jun 2000 17:53:30 -0700 "...large numbers of oiled sheets and tarpaulins were prepared at York for use throughout the country for divers purposes such as ground sheets and as protective coverings for fine furs. For such articles, large quantities of sail cloth were imported annually from Britain. It was soaked in oil distilled in huge vats from considerable number of artic whale caught each year in Hudson Bay by the company's schooner master and his able crew with the little fleet of ships maintained at the factory." WEST of the MOUNTAINS, "James Sinclair and the Hudson's Bay Company", by D.Geneva Lent, published by Univ. of Washington Press, 1963, page 38 & 39 This documentation may be for a few years later then most of you want. It is about 1818 at York Factory which was located on Hudson's Bay. The observation was made by James Sinclair. He was born about 1806 at the Hudson Bay's trading post of Oxford House, located between Lake Winnipeg and Hudson Bay. His father was the Chief Trader, William Sinclair, who did much to help the original Red River settlers. James became a free trader and being 1/2 Cree ( his mother was Cree), he had the loyality of the Metis`. He served as a British agent and lead two parties of settlers to the Oregon Territory. James died in 1856 ironically saving a party of Americans during an Indian attack. I guess my only real point is it is quite possible there was more then one way, one formula and one mindset on how to waterproof material. I doubt the Longhunters used whale oil. I was just responding to the question below regarding whales. Butch -----Original Message----- > >>On the face of it, the use of corn oil or something similar including animal >>fat seems to be a very likely candidate for the actual process since it is >>called "oil cloth" and from personal experience, linseed oil is not the best >>of materials to use since it dries so hard unless thinned or mixed with >>another material like Bee's Wax. > >wasn't sperm[whale] oil used for purt' near everything back then? > >respectfully, > >mike > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge Date: 14 Aug 2000 18:15:05 -0700 probably from laughting at your resume. On Mon, 14 August 2000, Concho wrote: > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Yes, not bragging but they fell at my feet when I excepted there offer and agreed to think of moving back to the mid-west. Hee Hee <GR> Will miss PA and the old fort sites we would travel to when you where here years ago. > > > Do it right or forget, > Daniel "Concho" Smith > Historical Advisor > ______________________________________ > Historical Research & Development > ______________________________________ > "Research & field trials in the manner of > our forefathers, before production." > ______________________________________ > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: upcoming local event Date: 14 Aug 2000 23:35:51 -0400 (EDT) The Muzzleloaders of Western Wayne County Conservation Association will hold its 21st annual Labor Day Weekend Rendezvous from Friday thru Monday September 1-4 at the club in Plymouth Township. There will be a Friday fish fry and activities focusing on the fur-trade era of 1760-1840. For more information on the event and fees, contact Leonard "Firestarter" Darnell at 734-397-0243. [Michigan Out-Of-Doors, Sep.2000, p.106] ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Murdered & Pillaged Americans, 1810 Date: 15 Aug 2000 02:01:46 EDT A new book by John C. Jackson titled THE PIIKANI BLACKFEET: A CULTURE UNDER SEIGE (Mountain Press, Missoula, 2000) looks at the fur trade era from the perspective of the Blackfeet and the Canadian fur companies, and it is an interesting change in outlook. On pg. 68 he refers to the massacre by Blackfeet in "early 1810" of an American trapping brigade led by a trapper from Detroit named Charles Courtin. They were killed "where the Nemissoolatakoo and Bitterroot Rivers come together." It is unclear what primary sources Jackson is refering to for this incident, but possibly Coues, ed., NEW LIGHT ON THE HISTORY OF THE GREATER NORTHWEST; THE MANUSCRIPT JOURNALS OF ALEXANDER HENRY...AND OF DAVID THOMPSON...1799-1813 (1897. Reprint, Minn., Ross & Haines, 1965.) John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flame Retardant Date: 15 Aug 2000 08:12:15 EDT << fire retardant, what they are saying is that the material will not support Combustion. That does not mean it won't burn or that you can't put a hole in it with a hot spark, just that if you put flame to it and it starts to burn (which it will) and you pull the flame away, the material will self extinguish. >> In the theatre we use a lot of "flame retardant" fabrics in curtains. We are also required by fire codes to treat scenery to make it "flame retardant". In my former career I worked for a manufacturer of theatrical curtains and drapes and had a lot of experiance with testing, cleaning and retreating fabric for flame retardancy. There are two types of fabrics; those that are treated to make them "flame retardant" by the dipping into or spraying on of chemical. This catagory includes all of the natural fibers i.e.: cotton, wool, linen, hemp etc. Then there are synthentic fabrics that are "inherently flame retardant" which are used in hospital drapes, elementary schools etc. where the drapes will need to be cleaned more often. This is due to the fact that dry cleaning or washing (think lots of rain storms) will eventually remove the "flame retardant" chemicals from any fabric that they have been applied to. So if you buy a "flame retardant" cotton canvas tent and you camp only in the dry south west you may have a "flame retardant" tent for the full life of the tent (as long as you do not pressure wash it). But if you have a tent up here in the north east that has gotten rained on every weekend this summer do not believe that even the best tent makers fabric will still be "flame retardant" if you put your candle to close to the canvas. All flame retardant chemicals (that I know of) eventually wash out. So be carefull. You can buy flame retarding chemicals and retreat your tent if you want. Most all tent makers can either sell you the chemicals to spray on with a hudson type sprayer or you can buy a lot and dip it in a horse trough type container (just do not let the horses drink the stuff). You can also buy flame retardant chemicals to spray or paint on from theatrical supply houses of catalogs (one product is made by Rosco). All dry colorless and are no protection against carelessness. YHOS C.T. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" <atthesea@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Murdered & Pillaged Americans, 1810 Date: 15 Aug 2000 06:54:36 -0700 Hello the list: Regarding the massacre at the junction of the Nemissoolatakoo (read Missoula River, now Clarks Fork River) and the Bitterroot River. Have flyfished about a zillion times right at the junction of the rivers. Interesting. The Blackfeet fought against the Salish (now part of Flathead Reservation) who were in the Bitterroot Valley hard and long. Lots of history in the 5-Valley area of western Montana. Regards, Ghostrider in Foggy and cool Coos Bay, Oregon. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flame Retardant Date: 15 Aug 2000 08:57:19 -0700 C.T. Great additional info. I like your last line. "and are no protection against carelessness". Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 5:12 AM > > > << fire retardant, what they are saying is that the material will not > support > Combustion. That does not mean it won't burn or that you can't put a hole in > it with a hot spark, just that if you put flame to it and it starts to burn > (which it will) and you pull the flame away, the material will self > extinguish. >> > > In the theatre we use a lot of "flame retardant" fabrics in curtains. We are > also required by fire codes to treat scenery to make it "flame retardant". > In my former career I worked for a manufacturer of theatrical curtains and > drapes and had a lot of experiance with testing, cleaning and retreating > fabric for flame retardancy. There are two types of fabrics; those that are > treated to make them "flame retardant" by the dipping into or spraying on of > chemical. This catagory includes all of the natural fibers i.e.: cotton, > wool, linen, hemp etc. Then there are synthentic fabrics that are > "inherently flame retardant" which are used in hospital drapes, elementary > schools etc. where the drapes will need to be cleaned more often. This is > due to the fact that dry cleaning or washing (think lots of rain storms) > will eventually remove the "flame retardant" chemicals from any fabric that > they have been applied to. So if you buy a "flame retardant" cotton canvas > tent and you camp only in the dry south west you may have a "flame retardant" > tent for the full life of the tent (as long as you do not pressure wash it). > But if you have a tent up here in the north east that has gotten rained on > every weekend this summer do not believe that even the best tent makers > fabric will still be "flame retardant" if you put your candle to close to the > canvas. All flame retardant chemicals (that I know of) eventually wash out. > So be carefull. You can buy flame retarding chemicals and retreat your tent > if you want. Most all tent makers can either sell you the chemicals to spray > on with a hudson type sprayer or you can buy a lot and dip it in a horse > trough type container (just do not let the horses drink the stuff). You can > also buy flame retardant chemicals to spray or paint on from theatrical > supply houses of catalogs (one product is made by Rosco). All dry colorless > and are no protection against carelessness. > > YHOS > > C.T. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly Date: 15 Aug 2000 21:29:07 -0500 The September issues of Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines = each have full page ads for Ruger semi-automatic .22 pistols. I, for = one, intend to post them a message thanking them for having the courage = to run the ads. I am certain that they will receive negative comments = from some people and I don't intend to let theirs be the only comments = PS & PM receive. Lanney Ratcliff PM can be reached at www.popularmechanics.com =20 PS can be reached at www.popsci.com=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly Date: 15 Aug 2000 19:53:56 -0700 Thanks for the heads up Lanney. I'll fire off a nice letter to each mag. Probably do more good than sending any pro gun comments to my Democrat Senator. Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly Date: 15 Aug 2000 20:52:44 -0600 Good work Lanney! I gave them a thanks for having moral fortitude myself. "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly Date: 15 Aug 2000 21:55:08 -0500 I dug through the web sites for the email addresses for comments to the = magazines. Lanney popularmechanics@hearst.com letters@popsci.com=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hsteven-pepke@webtv.net (H Steven Pepke) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly Date: 15 Aug 2000 20:00:26 -0700 (PDT) I just sent subscriptions and a note. They notice stuff like that! True Bear Issaquah, WA "Alle Kunst ist umsunst, wenn ein Engel auf das Zundloch brunzt!" - powderhorn poem - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting Date: 16 Aug 2000 00:09:05 EDT So you're not saying one has to have hemp to be have correct russia sheeting, right? Flax or hemp linen would be okay as I read Florence Montgomery's "Textiles in America 1650 - 1870." Page 278 indicates linen, as you said, was made from flax or hemp. Jim Hardee Amm #1676 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Linen For Russia Sheeting Date: 15 Aug 2000 23:57:06 -0500 Jim, Hemp linen or flax linen would be appropriate for russia sheeting. Keep in mind that the original russia sheeting was made from twilled material which is a much tighter weave than ordinary linen. I have two friends that made flys from regular linen because they are lighter to carry, but they have problems waterproofing them. The looser weave of regular linen lets the rain drops mist through the material even though they both coated their flys with linseed oil and paint pigment. Some of the sutlers sell a heavier, coarser, linen material that would probably do the job. Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly Date: 16 Aug 2000 09:38:55 -0700 thanks for the post lanny---will drop them a note since i got the e-mail addresses. "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Murdered & Pillaged Americans, 1810 Date: 16 Aug 2000 12:26:13 -0600 Hi Angela, I am not sure what the incidents are being written about for the summer of 1810. With regard to the second paragraph. Raymond was not the only post on the Yellowstone. Other attempts at post took place about this same time 240 miles down river from where I live and the Yellowstone runs into the Missouri. This formed a grand loop for war parties to strike targets of opportunity. The Yellowstone was known for being a war corridor as well as a trade trail. When the HBC was deregulated to include the Northwest Company. Problems for the HBC and newly forming Americans occurred in what is now called Montana. These are 3 stories about developing issue. By 1825 the rendez-vous system was implemented to avoid the problems on the Yellowstone. From the information present and missing it reads as if none of these 3 incidents were related to John Colter and the others near the Three Forks of the Missouri River which Ghosting Wolf talked about. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly Date: 16 Aug 2000 18:11:48 -0700 On Tue, 15 August 2000, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > The September issues of Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines each have full page ads for Ruger semi-automatic .22 pistols. I, for one, intend to post them a message thanking them for having the courage to run the ads. I am certain that they will receive negative comments from some people and I don't intend to let theirs be the only comments PS & PM receive. > Lanney Ratcliff > > PM can be reached at www.popularmechanics.com > PS can be reached at > www.popsci.com >----------------------------------- Thanks Lanney, Just e-mail both publishers with lengthy praises. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. Date: 16 Aug 2000 22:30:07 -0400 (EDT) On your new and improved job as a researcher (for the 1760-1840 time frame?) ye are in good company with the likes of Laura Glise, Angela Gottfred, and many others on this list. Buck: are you officially retired now? NRA Board of Directors? future U.S. Senator from Idaho? gettin ready for some big doins for the L+C Bicentennial? Capt. L: are you un-retiring to command a company to help put out The Western Fires? (Who knows when The Son of God The Great Spirit Father will put it out.) October? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. Date: 16 Aug 2000 19:42:36 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 7:30 PM > Buck: are you officially retired now? NRA Board of Directors? future > U.S. Senator from Idaho? gettin ready for some big doins for the L+C > Bicentennial? Jon, If Buck has any sense at all he wil really retire. > > Capt. L: are you un-retiring to command a company to help put out The > Western Fires? (Who knows when The Son of God The Great Spirit Father > will put it out.) October? You've got to be joking! Not on your life. Well, for your life I would but nothing short of that. <G> They don't need any more crippled up Capt.'s. What they need are a bunch of young bucks that can run a fire line. Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 16 Aug 2000 20:51:55 -0600 "Capt. Lahti'" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> wrote: >Thanks to you (almost a primary source in and of yourself <G>) Thank you, but I'm not *that* old! ;-) >we are getting closer to the truth. It would be interesting to learn just what was >used. And thank you to the folks who dug out old articles to tell us just how oilcloth was made in our period! >>In short, I think >> Vail goofed; perhaps he was using a late 19th-century formula for >> waterproofing in a late 18th-century context. >So your saying that Vail goofed in what he aledges Alexander actually did or >reported? Wonder where he got the idea? Well, I should say that I think Vail _might_ have goofed. I've seen similar errors in other secondary references (secondary=written by a historian). My favorite is the one in the Time-Life book in their series on the West, called _The Canadians_. In the section on the voyageurs, the author states that voyageurs were given a *peso* for every extra piece they took over Grand Portage. In fact, voyageurs were given a "Spanish dollar"--a large silver dollar coin minted in Mexico & Spain, better known as an 8-Real coin or "piece of eight". The author read "Spanish dollar", and just naturally thought "peso". Understandable, but wrong. >Would a freference to the corn oil have been in those [Mackenzie's] journals? I don't recall any, in Mackenzie's journals or anyone else's. I'm going to see if I can find out when corn oil was first used/manufactured. I'm probably waaay too skeptical for my own good, but I wouldn't be surprised to come up with a date in the 1840's or later... Great discussion, everyone! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. Date: 17 Aug 2000 01:57:32 EDT Jon: Thank you for your sincere compliment. I am honored any day to be a part of this list and have my name included in a list of "good company" that includes Ms. Gottfred, et. al. Much obliged. Laura Glise P.S. Flew over Montana and Idaho today on my way home to Washington and saw the wild fires. From above they looked like campfires but from below I know the fear and devastation is beyond words. LG ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Date: 17 Aug 2000 02:35:48 -0500 At 08:51 PM 8/16/1980 -0600, Angela wrote: > I'm going to >see if I can find out when corn oil was first used/manufactured. I'm >probably waaay too skeptical for my own good, but I wouldn't be surprised >to come up with a date in the 1840's or later... I've been digging since this thread was first mentioned; but so far I can't find any period references to the extraction, pressing, expelling, or use of corn oil. I am not aware of any period colloquialism regarding corn & oil. later... OK; when all else fails use Google (thanks Lanney) and search the web. http://www.corn.org/web/history.htm John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waterproofing & Fire Safety 101 Date: 17 Aug 2000 04:10:28 -0500 To expand on what Concho, Buck, Capt L., and others have been saying. If you want a historical experience you must do things in a historical way. Fire is our most powerful tool, we should know enough to exercise caution when wielding that power. Not to mention most of us are packing a pound or so of powder in the first place. If you burn down your shelter or destroy your bedroll you are going to suddenly learn how to make do and do without. If you're careless with powder you may need to learn to do without trivial items like eyes and limbs. If you do this at the wrong time, and don't know enough; you may not make it out alive, best to learn how to do. In the woods a lawyer written guarantee don't make decent bum fodder, come to think of it they ain't worth much more in the settlements. Safety is practices and procedures -- not stuff. Pay attention this stuff can get you killed. You are responsible for you. If you are depending on some other protection you are in the wrong hobby, checkers might be a more suitable pursuit; but don't fall off the chair. ...begin ..... POSTED CONSUMER WARNING: This field of endeavor is dangerous and if you don't pay close attention you can be seriously injured or die. If this is too real, too bad. There are a great many things associated with what we do that can rise up and smite you. ...end, posted consumer warning..... You will never have a clue how it was, unless you do all things as they were. John Colter ran naked for his life and made it, can you. If you are going to do things in a modern way why not just rent a camper? It's lots easier, by the by formaldehyde fumes can kill you. Fire retardant for fabric was not generally known in the 19th century, you have less to lose than they did if your excuse is that the tent is too expensive to risk. If you are simply a worrier who thinks the consumer product safety people perform a "service" this is the wrong hobby for you and you should quit immediately -- take up something safe like TV watching; careful of carpal tunnel beer elbow syndrome. I and others have posted period receipts for use in waterproofing cloth, if you really want to. I will reiterate from previous threads: that I don't perceive a real advantage to oil cloth for the majority of uses, if good quality canvas is used in the first place. I own oil cloth and you must really be careful using it or you will increase the moisture in close proximity to your body. Condensation in cold weather can be deadly. It can make a chill night miserable. Tight woven canvas will readily turn the hardest rain if it has just a little drainage. The best use I've found for oil cloth is to wrap goods against the dew. On wet ground it can provide a barrier to the greater dampness below, if used on dry ground under a bedroll it always comes up wet. Less noticeable in drier climates like the Rocky Mountains. Sometimes a tough call which is better for a ground cloth - with or without. I think a heavier weight of quality canvas without oil/wax treatment offers better all-around utility for a given gross weight in the mountain west, in high humidity areas an oil cloth ground cover offers perhaps less dampness. Don't throw it over you or you will be damp through and through. On treating the reclaimed canvas that started this thread you may have concerns, and how good was the canvas in the first place? Paint may be your best solution. It limits the utility of the result. Have you ever been in a wax or oil treated tent on a really hot sunny day? You may want to do that before you use anything on any tent. Some of the chemicals available can do you grave harm. A less manageable hazard than fire when present. I've not noted fumes with factory treated canvas like Sun Forger, it doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any. You did want something else to worry about didn't you? Read and comprehend the MSDS if you still choose a modern way; look up those things you are using in a chemical hazards dictionary at the library. Then decide if they are in fact safer or better or only different and cheaper and newer. If you use old ways common sense will take you far Pilgrim. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john kramer@kramerize.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iambrainey@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waterproofing & Fire Safety 101 Date: 17 Aug 2000 06:44:07 EDT In a message dated 00-08-17 05:12:28 EDT, you write: << John Colter ran naked for his life and made it, can you. >> I've heard references to this story before. Can someone give a reference to a full version? Thanks, Ben Rainey ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. Date: 17 Aug 2000 08:21:08 -0400 You know, I was thinking of taking on an apprentice... Ya interested Buck? I offered the job to Pendleton, he turned me down... I thought the employment benifits and wage package was awful fair.. If interested, as L.P about details D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waterproofing & Fire Safety 101 Date: 17 Aug 2000 07:27:23 -0700 Ben, Read 'John Colter- his years in the Rockies' by Burton Harris isbn#0-8032-7264-2 hope this helps, hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> Subject: MtMan-List: Chokers Date: 17 Aug 2000 09:26:37 -0500 Compadres and Compadrettes, Does anyone have info on the use of bone chokers in the Rendezvous period? You know those ubiquitous chokers we all wear made with beads and hairpipe. I checked paintings by Catlin and Bodmer and I found none. I did see some men wearing beaded necklaces wrapped several times around the neck that looked like chokers, but not a single one, it appears, was made of hairpipe. Two questions are 1. When did hairpipe chokers come into fashion among Native Americans and frontiersmen? 2. Are there any other primasry visual or narrative sources that will document hairpipe chokers in the Rendezvous period? Any thoughts? Thanks, HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" <hunter1828@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chokers Date: 17 Aug 2000 14:42:26 GMT Greetings the list, ----Original Message Follows---- >From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> >Subject: MtMan-List: Chokers >Does anyone have info on the use of bone chokers in the Rendezvous >period? Henry, I found a Catlin painting of Little Mountain, Kiowa, and he is wearing what appears to be either a hairpipe or tube bead necklace, can't tell for sure which, but this is the only representation I have seen that early. I checked Rudolf Kurz's journal and art and he doesn't show anything like it, and that is 1851. I came to the conclusion a few years ago that hairpipe was very rarely used until after the beginning of the Plains Indian Wars (you start seeing lots of them in photos taken in the mid- to late-1860's). I know that Fort Union had hairpipe in stock as early as 1849, but as for how much was traded and for what it was used...your guess is as good as mine. If you want more info on the common beaded chokers of the time (like the ones shown by Bodmer and Catlin) contact Ken Woody, Chief Ranger at Little Bighorn. He has made some repros of excellent quality. Historically yours, Robert W. Thomson "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chokers Date: 17 Aug 2000 10:44:27 EDT Henry, Get a hold of a book called "Hair Pipes in Plains Indain Adornment" by John Ewers. It is a Smithsonian Institution reprint from Anthropological paper No. 50, writen in 1957. It's was reprinted again by Iroqrafts ltd. in 1985. In essence, Ewers syas shell hair pipes were available in very limited quantities up to 1850. After that, hair pipes manufacturing shifted from hand-made to machine made from bone instead of shell and thus, became much more readily available. (p.74) If you want more detail, let me know and I'll pull the book out and spend some time in it. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Valley <r_rvalley@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chokers Date: 17 Aug 2000 11:53:05 -0700 Henry, I do not have any specific documentation on (hair) bone chokers during the rendezvous period that I have been able to find... however the Smithsonian Institute has a web site that if you are not already familiar with, may be of some interest to you. I think that it will provide you with some direction at least to your first question. http://www.sil.si.edu/DigitalCollections/BAE/Bulletin164/tptoc.htm As for any thoughts, I don't believe that the hair bone (as we recognize it today) & certainly the 'chockers' in particuliar, have a place in the fur trade era to any large degree, if at all. hope this helps. regards, Ron Valley On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:26:37 -0500 "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> writes: > Compadres and Compadrettes, > Does anyone have info on the use of bone chokers in the Rendezvous > period? Two questions are 1. When did hairpipe chokers come into > fashion among Native Americans and frontiersmen? 2. Are there any > other > primasry visual or narrative sources that will document hairpipe > chokers in > the Rendezvous period? > > Any thoughts? > > Thanks, > HBC > > ********************************** > Henry B. Crawford > Curator of History > Museum of Texas Tech University > Box 43191 > Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chokers Date: 17 Aug 2000 10:14:09 -0600 John Ewers wrote a paper on hair pipe and so did Allan Chronister. NO bone hair pipe chokers during the fur trade. These "hair pipe" were shells. Bodmer painted several Indians wearing them in their hair. I can make copies of Ewers paper if I can find it and mail it to you Henry Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waterproofing & Fire Safety 101 Date: 17 Aug 2000 11:56:30 -0600 John Kramer <john kramer@kramerize.com> wrote: >>The best use I've found for oil cloth is to wrap goods against the dew. << And, not surprisingly, that's what the voyageurs used it for: to protect the furs and trade goods from spray, rain, and damp. The only materials I've found used for tents in the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821, are grey cotton, Russia sheeting, and leather. Not oilcloth. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: A history lesson on the Dollar Bill Date: 17 Aug 2000 19:21:09 EDT --part1_30.90c089f.26cdcd65_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_30.90c089f.26cdcd65_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: <BirdsDestiny@aol.com> Full-name: BirdsDestiny Message-ID: <12.11e8d50.26cd6e76@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 118 > > >> > >> Received this and found it quite interesting. Think you will too. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Take out a one dollar bill and look at it. The one dollar bill > >you're > > >> > >> looking at first came off the presses in 1957 in its present > >design. > > >> > >> This so-called paper money is in fact a cotton and linen blend, > >with > > >> > >> red and blue minute silk fibers running through it. It is actually > > >> > >> material. We've all washed it without it falling apart. A special > > >blend > > >> > >> of ink is used, the contents we will never know. It is overprinted > > >> > >> with symbols and then it is starched to make it water resistant > >and > > >> > >> pressed to give it that nice crisp look. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> If you look on the front of the bill, you will see the United > >States > > >> > >> Treasury Seal. On the top you will see the scales for the balance, > > >> > >> i.e.a balanced budget. In the center you have a carpenter's T- > > >> > >> square, a tool used for an even cut. Underneath is the Key to the > > >> > >> United States Treasury. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> That's all pretty easy to figure out, but what is on the back of > >that > > >> > >> dollar bill is something we should all know. If you turn the bill > > >over, > > >> > >> you will see two circles. Both circles, together, comprise the > >Great > > >> > >> Seal of the United States. The First Continental Congress > > >> > >> requested that Benjamin Franklin and a group of men come up with > > >> > >> a Seal. It took them four years to accomplish this task and > >another > > >> > >> two years to get it approved. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> If you look at the left hand circle, you will see a Pyramid. > >Notice > > >> > >> the face is lighted and the western side is dark. This country was > > >> > >> just beginning. We had not begun to explore the West or decided > > >> > >> what we could do for Western Civilization. The Pyramid is un- > > >> > >> capped, again signifying that we were not even close to being > > >> > >> finished. Inside the capstone you have the all-seeing eye, and > > >> > >> ancient symbol for divinity. It was Franklin's belief that one man > > >> > >> couldn't do it alone, but a group of men, with the help of God, > > >> > >> could do anything. "IN GOD WE TRUST" is on this currency. The > > >> > >> Latin above the pyramid, ANNUIT COEPTIS, means "God has > > >> > >> favored our undertaking." The Latin below the pyramid, NOVUS > > >> > >> ORDO SECLORUM, means "a new order has begun." > > >> > >> At the base of the pyramid is the Roman Numeral for 1776. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> If you look at the right-hand circle, and check it carefully, you > > >> > >> will learn that it is on every National Cemetery in the United > > >States. > > >> > >> It is also on the Parade of Flags Walkway at the Bushnell, Florida > > >> > >> National Cemetery and is the centerpiece of most hero's > > >> > >> monuments. Slightly modified, it is the seal of the President of > >the > > >> > >> United States and it is always visible whenever he speaks, yet no > > >> > >> one knows what the symbols mean. The Bald Eagle was selected > > >> > >> as a symbol for victory for two reasons: first, he is not afraid > >of > >a > > >> > >> storm; he is strong and he is smart enough to soar above it. > > >> > >> Secondly, he wears no material crown. We had just broken from > > >> > >> the King of England. Also, notice the shield is unsupported. This > > >> > >> country can now stand on its own. At the top of that shield you > > >> > >> have a white bar signifying congress, a unifying factor. We were > > >> > >> coming together as one nation. In the Eagle's beak you will read, > > >> > >> "E PLURIBUS UNUM", meaning "one nation from many people." > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Above the Eagle you have thirteen stars representing the thirteen > > >> > >> original colonies, and any clouds of misunderstanding rolling > >away. > > >> > >> Again, we were coming together as one. Notice what the Eagle > > >> > >> holds in his talons. He holds an olive branch and arrows. This > > >> > >> country wants peace, but we will never be afraid to fight to > >preserve > > >> > >> peace. The Eagle always wants to face the olive branch, but in > > >> > >> time of war, his gaze turns toward the arrows. They say that the > > >> > >> number 13 is an unlucky number. This is almost a worldwide > > >> > >> belief. You will usually never see a room numbered 13, or any > > >> > >> hotels or motels with a 13th floor. But, think about this: 13 > > >original > > >> > >> colonies, 13 stripes on our flag, 13 steps on the Pyramid, 13 > > >> > >> letters in the Latin above, 13 letters in "E Pluribus Unum", 13 > >stars > > >> > >> above the Eagle, 13 plumes of feathers on each span of the Eagle's > > >> > >> wing, 13 bars on that shield, 13 leaves on the olive branch, 13 > > >> > >> fruits, and if you look closely, 13 arrows. And for minorities: > >the > > >> > >> 13th Amendment. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Pass this on. Your children don't know this and their history > > >> > >> teachers don't know this. Too may veterans have given up too > > >> > >> much to ever let the meaning fade. Many veterans remember > > >> > >> coming home to an America that didn't care. Too many veterans > > >> > >> never came home at all. Tell everyone what is on the back of the > > >> > >> one dollar bill and what it stands for, because nobody else will. >^..^< see our website --part1_30.90c089f.26cdcd65_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. Date: 17 Aug 2000 18:43:38 -0700 Buck, I don't think you want to go there. Let's just say Brother Dennis has very broad concept of a fair benefit and wage package. <GGG> I allowed how I didn't think I could support LHB in the manner in which she wished to become accustomed on what he offered. <GG> Of course the idea of getting to watch Dennis, on a daily basis, learn that iron doesn't have to be red to be hot, might make it all worth while. Pendleton -----Original Message----- You know, I was thinking of taking on an apprentice... Ya interested Buck? I offered the job to Pendleton, he turned me down... I thought the employment benifits and wage package was awful fair.. If interested, as L.P about details D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chokers Date: 17 Aug 2000 18:35:16 -0700 Henry, It's my understanding, bone hairpipes were a by-product of the button industry. They were extremely expensive until the mechanization was available to mass produce them. That would probably mean they were not at all commonly used until well into the reservation period. I can't remember where I read that. I am currently reading, " The Journals of the Expedition of Lewis and Clark" by Nicholos Biddle. In it Lewis describes the proccess used by the Indians to make their own tube beads. It is very interesting. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Compadres and Compadrettes, Does anyone have info on the use of bone chokers in the Rendezvous period? You know those ubiquitous chokers we all wear made with beads and hairpipe. I checked paintings by Catlin and Bodmer and I found none. I did see some men wearing beaded necklaces wrapped several times around the neck that looked like chokers, but not a single one, it appears, was made of hairpipe. Two questions are 1. When did hairpipe chokers come into fashion among Native Americans and frontiersmen? 2. Are there any other primasry visual or narrative sources that will document hairpipe chokers in the Rendezvous period? Any thoughts? Thanks, HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. Date: 17 Aug 2000 17:46:33 -0700 > From: "JON MARINETTI" <JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net> > > Buck: are you officially retired now? NRA Board of Directors? future > > U.S. Senator from Idaho? gettin ready for some big doins for the L+C > > Bicentennial? Jon, Buck is retired from the business end of Clark & Sons Mercantile, retained as an advisor, etc. for a short period. He did the NRA Advisor Board years ago, doesn't think much of most of the lawmakers - so that's out. But told me last week he was interested in making a trip north if I could get loose, to see what was going on with the L&C Bicentennial. He was in Chicago earlier this week on phone business and a meeting with the folks I now work for, they have shown interest in some of the material Buck has written over the years, don't know where that one will go. He'll get a kick out of your remarks. > > Capt. L: are you un-retiring to command a company to help put out The > > Western Fires? (Who knows when The Son of God The Great Spirit Father > > will put it out.) October? > > You've got to be joking! Not on your life. Well, for your life I would but > nothing short of that. <G> They don't need any more crippled up Capt.'s. > What they need are a bunch of young bucks that can run a fire line. Capt. L Capt., Good for you, enjoy yourself, you've put your neck on the line to many times to think about doing it again. Let the old war wounds heal and enjoy the historical sport and the folks involved. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Waterproofing? Date: 17 Aug 2000 20:08:38 -0600 Folks, OK, have a buddy that has made a canvas bucket, he would like it to hold water but as of today it works like a shower. Now I know there is someone out there that knows how to make it stop leaking. So someone speak up! YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waterproofing? Date: 17 Aug 2000 22:12:31 -0400 I coated (soaked) mine with hot bee's wax and it now works fine. Tom "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Folks, > OK, have a buddy that has made a canvas bucket, he would like it to hold > water but as of today it works like a shower. Now I know there is someone > out there that knows how to make it stop leaking. So someone speak up! > YMOS > Ole # 718 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. Date: 17 Aug 2000 19:22:27 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 5:46 PM > Capt., > > Good for you, enjoy yourself, <snip> Let the old war wounds heal and enjoy the > historical sport and the folks involved. Concho, Thanks. I have, I am, I will. With what's left anyway. I see they are taking retiree's back into the FS to help fight fires. The thought crossed my mind but it is time for younger folks to turn out. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahtii' > > > In the footsteps of others, > > D. L. "Concho" Smith > Historical Advisor for: > ______________________________________________ > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, > before production". > ________________________________________HRD__ > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waterproofing? Date: 17 Aug 2000 21:36:05 -0500 Ole, Again the issue is the quality of the canvas. If tight woven the fibers will swell enough to hold the water and only sweat to the exterior which allows evaporative cooling. Think desert water bags from the '50's & '60's. If you need to waterproof it because the vendor was selling an inferior material melt beeswax or brewers pitch into the surface. From thence on be careful of cracking and will you lose most of the evaporative cooling. John... At 08:08 PM 8/17/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Folks, >OK, have a buddy that has made a canvas bucket, he would like it to hold >water but as of today it works like a shower. Now I know there is someone >out there that knows how to make it stop leaking. So someone speak up! >YMOS >Ole # 718 > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on Earth... and what no just government should refuse." --Thomas Jefferson ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: OT - Ruger ad in popsci & popmech Date: 18 Aug 2000 00:01:49 -0400 (EDT) Lanney, count this brother also as one who thanked them in a small way for their courage to display the ad and take their stand for the 2nd Amendment. Ultimate goal should be a 40 million life member NRA (law abiding gun owners) + 20? million member Allies of NRA? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com> Subject: Fwd: Fw: MtMan-List: A history lesson on the Dollar Bill Date: 18 Aug 2000 08:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Hello the list, I had forwared this to some of my friends. One of them had forwared it to others. He got this back and sent it to me. I deleated all but this part,. Thought I would pass it along. grn > > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: A history lesson on the > Dollar Bill > > > > > > > > > >MAJOR NOT TRUE!!! The pyramid, the all-seeing > eye, and the latin motto > > "new > > >order" was NOT incorporated into the original > dollar bill design. It was > > >not added into the design until around 1941 I > believe (anyway, in the > 40's) > > >during Wilson's presidency. The inclusion of > this symbol on the dollar > > bill > > >was pushed by a man in Wilson's administration (I > can't remember his name > > >right now) who has some pretty "weird" > connections...and it does NOT > > >symbolize what this states it symbolizes. > > > > > >Just thought I'd shed some light on that. > > (snip) > > >>> > > >> > >> If you look at the left hand > circle, you > > >>> will see a Pyramid. > > >>> > >Notice > > >>> > > >> > >> the face is lighted and the > western side > > >>> is dark. This country > > >>> was > > >>> > > >> > >> just beginning. We had not begun > to > > >>> explore the West or decided > > >>> > > >> > >> what we could do for Western > > >>> Civilization. The Pyramid is un- > > >>> > > >> > >> capped, again signifying that we > were > > >>> not even close to being > > >>> > > >> > >> finished. Inside the capstone you > have > > >>> the all-seeing eye, and > > >>> > > >> > >> ancient symbol for divinity. It > was > > >>> Franklin's belief that one > > >>> man > > >>> > > >> > >> couldn't do it alone, but a group > of > > >>> men, with the help of God, > > >>> > > >> > >> could do anything. "IN GOD WE > TRUST" is > > >>> on this currency. The > > >>> > > >> > >> Latin above the pyramid, ANNUIT > COEPTIS, > > >>> means "God has > > >>> > > >> > >> favored our undertaking." The > Latin > > >>> below the pyramid, NOVUS > > >>> > > >> > >> ORDO SECLORUM, means "a new order > has > > >>> begun." > > >>> > > >> > >> At the base of the pyramid is the > Roman > > >>> Numeral for 1776. > > >>> > > >> > >> > > >>> > > >> > >> If you look at the right-hand > circle, > > >>> and check it carefully, > > >>> you > > >>> > > >> > >> will learn that it is on every > National > > >>> Cemetery in the United > > >>> > > >States. > > >>> > > >> > >> It is also on the Parade of Flags > > >>> Walkway at the Bushnell, > > >>> Florida > > >>> > > >> > >> National Cemetery and is the > centerpiece > > >>> of most hero's > > >>> > > >> > >> monuments. Slightly modified, it > is the > > >>> seal of the President of > > >>> > >the > > >>> > > >> > >> United States and it is always > visible > > >>> whenever he speaks, yet > > >>> no > > >>> > > >> > >> one knows what the symbols mean. > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net> Subject: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, Capt. (OFF TOPIC) Date: 18 Aug 2000 16:50:48 -0700 > From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> > Buck, > I don't think you want to go there. Let's just say Brother Dennis has > very broad concept of a fair benefit and wage package. <GGG> I allowed how > I didn't think I could support LHB in the manner in which she wished to > become accustomed on what he offered. <GG> Of course the idea of getting > to watch Dennis, on a daily basis, learn that iron doesn't have to be red to > be hot, might make it all worth while. > Pendleton > > From: Dennis Miles <deforge1@bright.net> > You know, I was thinking of taking on an apprentice... Ya interested Buck? > I offered the job to Pendleton, he turned me down... I thought the employment > benifits and wage package was awful fair.. If interested, as L.P about details > D ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NO on all accounts boys. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> > Buck is retired from the business end of Clark & Sons Mercantile,............. > But told me last week he was interested in making a trip north if I could get > loose,to see what was going on with the L&C Bicentennial. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ YES on both accounts. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > He was in Chicago earlier this week on phone business and a meeting with the > folks I now work for............................ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What's the old saying - "Don't tell anyone on the telegraph, on the telephone or tell Concho" anything personal, when we named you many years ago - the wrong name was picked for you which many on several lists, sites, etc. have noticed. Your worst than an old woman hanging over the back fence telling stories to anyone that will listen. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Good for you, enjoy yourself, you've put your neck on the line to many times > to think about doing it again. Let the old war wounds heal and enjoy the > historical sport and the folks involved. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The same Capt. from me - enjoy every minute. (the only senseable remarks the three have made - Dennis, Larry and Gabby - the New Three St........). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes Concho I was offered a position (limited to special projects - my choice) with HRD, think it will be interesting to have their access to area's that the public usually can get into. Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Debarkin Lodgepole Pine Date: 19 Aug 2000 19:14:38 EDT Hallo the List, I now know why the Indians cut their lodgepole pine in the spring, and it ain't cause there's still snow in the hills and it's easier to drag em out. It would normaly only take me an hour or so to blow the bark off a dozen or so poles with a high pressure water cleaner in the Spring, but today it took that long to do just six. It may have something to do with it being hot and dusty in the NW, the bark being thick, and it does not come off without a fight. Anyway, get your poles in the spring..... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Debarkin Lodgepole Pine Date: 19 Aug 2000 18:34:22 -0500 Ever try a drawshave? northwoods -----Original Message----- >Hallo the List, > >I now know why the Indians cut their lodgepole pine in the spring, and it >ain't cause there's still snow in the hills and it's easier to drag em out. >It would normaly only take me an hour or so to blow the bark off a dozen or >so poles with a high pressure water cleaner in the Spring, but today it took >that long to do just six. It may have something to do with it being hot and >dusty in the NW, the bark being thick, and it does not come off without a >fight. Anyway, get your poles in the spring..... > >Ymos, >Magpie > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Still Hunting !!! Date: 19 Aug 2000 16:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Hello the list, Still hunting anyone that may be interested in coming to the Chouteau Days Celebration, at Salina, Ok. Oct. 6-7-8th. We need school demos Fri, and public demos Sat. It will be at the Chouteau Museum, they have about 3 acres of museum, and city park area to set up on. Anyone close enough, and want to help ?? If you have trade goods, bring them. (kids and public) not many "skinners" attended last year. Hope you might post this on any othet site you know of for me.( Open camp-late 1700's-mid 1800's) thanks George ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail û Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Debarkin Lodgepole Pine Date: 19 Aug 2000 19:47:39 EDT In a message dated 8/19/00 4:33:20 PM, northwoods@ez-net.com writes: << Ever try a drawshave? northwoods >> Hallo Northwoods..... Yup, have tried a draw knife, but you won't believe how nice the poles look when you pressure clean the bark off. Smooth, no nick or cuts, and a bright shiney finish.... still gotta cut and file the limb and knots down though. I can do enough poles for a lodge in about an hour in the spring when the bark is loose... Hey....where that bark canoe tape! Ymos Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, Capt. (OFF TOPIC) Date: 19 Aug 2000 19:27:05 -0700 > The same Capt. from me - enjoy every minute. (the only senseable remarks the three have made - Dennis, Larry and Gabby - the New Three St........). > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AND WE CALL HIM FRIEND & BROTHER > Yes Concho I was offered a position (limited to special projects - my choice) with HRD,.............. > Resource & Documentation for: > ______________________________________________ HOW DID YOU PULL THIS OFF - (limited to special projects - my choice), I WASN'T GIVEN AN OPTION ? DID THE LIST DIE OR IS EVERYONE OUT ON THE GROUND !!!! In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Still Hunting !!! Date: 19 Aug 2000 22:03:51 -0700 george--- thats about the start of muzzle season in arkansas---if its earlier steave and i may try to make it--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was: Muzzleloader) Date: 19 Aug 2000 20:27:22 -0600 I finally go around to doing some digging on the subject of corn oil. I found these sites: www.corn.org/web/history.htm A Brief History of the Corn Refining Industry --says that the first commercial production of corn oil took place in 1889. www.mazola.org --says Mazola introduced in June 1911 Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was: Muzzleloader) Date: 19 Aug 2000 22:31:56 -0700 Angela, Looks like the references to corn oil used as a waterproofing were incorrect, but I wonder what they were refering to as "corn oil" ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- <hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com> I finally go around to doing some digging on the subject of corn oil. I found these sites: www.corn.org/web/history.htm A Brief History of the Corn Refining Industry --says that the first commercial production of corn oil took place in 1889. www.mazola.org --says Mazola introduced in June 1911 Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was: Muzzleloader) Date: 19 Aug 2000 20:39:51 -0700 Angela, Thanks. I took a look at the site too. Well, it was a good idea anyway. Anyone know of a whale that has washed up on the shore some where? I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was: Muzzleloader) Date: 19 Aug 2000 23:04:51 -0500 Webster's 1828 Dictionary describes corn as an edible seed from a = variety of plants (see below). Could the original reference to corn oil = have meant something different from what is meant today? Vegetable oils = were know at this time (see below). Terminology and word useage have = changed, sometimes radically, over the last two centuries, making = assumptions risky. Just my 2 cents worth. Lanney Ratcliff=20 CORN, n. [G., L. See Grain.] 1. A single seed of certain plants, as wheat, rye, barley and maiz; a = grain. In this sense, it has a plural; as, three barley corns make an = inch. It is generally applied to edible seeds, which, when ripe, are = hard. OIL, n. It seems to be named from its inflammability, for aelan, is to = kindle, and to oil; hence anaelan, to anneal; aeled, fire. L. oleum; = Gr.] An unctuous substance expressed or drawn from several animal and = vegetable substances. The distinctive characters of oil are = inflammability, fluidity, and insolubility in water. Oils are fixed or = fat, and volatile or essential. They have a smooth feel, and most of = them have little taste or smell. Animal oil is found in all animal = substances. Vegetable oils are produced by expression, infusion or = distillation. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was: Muzzleloader) Date: 20 Aug 2000 01:10:08 EDT In a message dated 8/19/00 9:05:52 PM, rat@htcomp.net writes: << CORN, n. [G., L. See Grain.] 1. A single seed of certain plants, as wheat, rye, barley and maiz; a grain. >> Angela...... how about "Maiz oil"..... worth a try? Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Lost Address - Off Topic Date: 20 Aug 2000 11:32:09 -0400 Will the kind folks who's "nom de email" is "wefarmasmidgen" please contact me off list? I've lost your address. Thanks! Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Hair Pipe Date: 20 Aug 2000 18:08:49 EDT hello the camp! sorry to be so late with this response, but I just found this link buried in my favs ;), and it seems to have some very well researched information on the subject. Check it out... <A HREF="http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/tptoc.htm">Hair Pipes in Plains Indian Adornment</A> Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was: Muzzleloader) Date: 20 Aug 2000 22:32:36 EDT In reference to corn oil....the website indicated that the first "commercial" production of corn oil began in 1889. There are lots of products used by early settlers in many parts of the country (world) that were used long before they became "commercially: available. Many products were produced and used at home. Especially in an agrarian society. Dairy products, meats, grains were all available to many early inhabitants long before they were commercially available commercially. That some crops were sold or traded is a fact but others were produced for the consumption of the individuals.. Why not corn oil? Could it be that while there was a use for the product the demand was insufficient to create a commercially viable product. Just my on rambling thoughts but it seems to me corn oil could have been available for use even if not a "commercially" viable product at the time. YMOS, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Santa Fe trade inquiry Date: 21 Aug 2000 03:03:00 GMT Does anyone out there know where to find invoices with costs for Santa Fe trade goods? I'm looking for something to give me an idea of what they paid for goods in the east. I'd also like to find some information on what wages were paid to teamsters, hunters and the various other positions on a Santa Fe bound trade caravan. I was told there was some inventories for Bent's Fort in the Chouteau collections but don't have a contact for this...any help/suggestions? Anyone out there doing a Santa Fe trade impression? Look forward to any and all suggestions and information. Most Sincerely, Scott McMahon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "wayne anderson" <wanders66@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: diah's rifle? Date: 21 Aug 2000 03:12:39 GMT List, I've heard that "diah's" rifle is in a muesum and that for a time a copy of it was produced by one of the Italian manufacture. does anyone have any information on this thread??? Wayne ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was: Muzzleloader) Date: 20 Aug 2000 23:03:43 -0500 Steve, As I wrote over a week ago; since this topic came up I have searched for=20 early references to corn oil. I have found none. From the information on the corn.org site it sounds as if the extraction=20 of corn oil is not the simple process an oil like linseed is to=20 extract. The short history clearly states that the first corn refining=20 didn't take place until 1844. 45 years later they learned to extract oil=20 from the up to then waste product germ. This is not a simple technology=20 folks did back on the farm. I suspect corn was so important as a food crop no one was much interested=20 in processing it into an oil which could be more easily extracted from less= =20 valuable plant and animal materials. John... At 10:32 PM 8/20/2000 -0400, you wrote: >In reference to corn oil....the website indicated that the first= "commercial" >production of corn oil began in 1889. There are lots of products used by >early settlers in many parts of the country (world) that were used long >before they became "commercially: available. Many products were produced= and >used at home. Especially in an agrarian society. Dairy products, meats, >grains were all available to many early inhabitants long before they were >commercially available commercially. That some crops were sold or traded= is >a fact but others were produced for the consumption of the individuals..= Why >not corn oil? Could it be that while there was a use for the product the >demand was insufficient to create a commercially viable product. >Just my on rambling thoughts but it seems to me corn oil could have been >available for use even if not a "commercially" viable product at the time. > >YMOS, > >Steve > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< <http://www.kramerize.com/> mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was: Muzzleloader) Date: 21 Aug 2000 08:45:54 -0400 Angela, If I'm not mistaken, in eighteeenth century Ireland, all grain was referred to as "corn". This could have a bearing on the meaning of the oil being used, but I'm not aware of any other vegetable oils used at that time. Dennis Earp ---- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1980 10:27 PM > I finally go around to doing some digging on the subject of corn oil. I > found these sites: > > www.corn.org/web/history.htm A Brief History of the Corn Refining Industry > --says that the first commercial production of corn oil took place in 1889. > > www.mazola.org > --says Mazola introduced in June 1911 > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: diah's rifle? Date: 21 Aug 2000 10:58:02 EDT Wayne, Who is this "diah" of whom you speak? Lots of people refer to Jedediah Smith by such a name but other than historians and novel writers, I've never seen "diah" in a primary source document. If you have, let me know. As for Jedediah Smith's gun, I've never heard that any rifle traced back to him was ever found but one of his pistols was displayed in a museum in San Diego until they were stolen on October 27, 1961. The pistol was a pecussion, half-stock .50 caliber. It had a 9 1/2 inch octagonal barrel and was 15 1/2 inches in length. Several good pictures exist and I can direct you toward them if you like. Carl P. Russel described it as an "English duelling-pistol type, well made..." Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Santa Fe trade inquiry Date: 21 Aug 2000 10:19:18 -0600 Scott, If you check with the Palace of the Govenors in Sante Fe, I imagine they would have what you want. Another place, possibly would be the Kit Carson Museum in Taos or Bent's Fort themselves.. My web site has the email addresses on one of the pages. mike. http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616 scott mcmahon wrote: > Does anyone out there know where to find invoices with costs for Santa Fe > trade goods? I'm looking for something to give me an idea of what they paid > for goods in the east. I'd also like to find some information on what wages > were paid to teamsters, hunters and the various other positions on a Santa > Fe bound trade caravan. I was told there was some inventories for Bent's > Fort in the Chouteau collections but don't have a contact for this...any > help/suggestions? Anyone out there doing a Santa Fe trade impression? Look > forward to any and all suggestions and information. > > Most Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Hairpipe....redux Date: 21 Aug 2000 11:45:37 EDT While reading on a totally different subject, I ran across the following tidbits in "Speaking of Indians", University of Arizona Press, 1970. It might help clear up some of the mystery discussed earlier in the thread a while back. "Probably the longest run a style ever had was that of the "hairpipe." It was worn over four thousand years ago and is still in use. A company in New York still supplies them, as they and their predecessors have for 135 years. Ancient burials turn up hair pipes in the eastern US. They were made of the columns of shells traded from the coast, from rolled copper, bone, and stone. In 1735, an Irishman named William Campbell settled in New York, and for years, his family manufactured wampum for the Indians from clam shells. Later, they concentrated on hair pipes. The business was handed down to the great-great-grandsons. Others made pipes too, but the Campbells held a monopoly. Their pipes were made from the lip of the conch, Strombus gigas, that was carried as ship's ballast to New York from the West Indies. They bought them in lot of five to ten thousand. The family had a secret finishing process that helped them corner the market. It involved baking the shells to whiten them, soaking them in buttermilk to soften them for drilling, tempering metal drills in sheep's tallow, and polishing the pipes with sand and water. The hardest part was drilling the long shells by hand, which limited production to 100 a day per man. With the ingenious invention of a machine that turned out 6 at a time, production zoomed to 400 per day. ....in 1878, a trader to the Ponca indians was surprised to witness a sudden surge in the demand for corncob pipes. Not until he was shown a necklace made from bone pipestems was the mystery cleared up. The trader contacted the pipe manufacturer, who contacted Armour and Company of Chicago, and , with an unlimited supply of cattle leg bones, a new enterprise was born. Bone hair pipes were the big news, and the Campbells went out of business. ........because power tools were used, production costs were lowered, and the pipe sold cheaper. John Jacob Astor, among others, distributed hair pipes [made of shell]. Lewis and Clarrk carried them as presents to Indian chiefs. ....the bauble became very popular and spread across the plains." Perhaps this will clear up some of the confusion we associate with the semantics of hair pipe. I summarize: 1. Hair pipe for trade in quantity were around sometime after 1735. 2. They were made from shell, rather than bone, but other materials were sparsely used. 3. With the introduction of corncob pipes using bone pipe stems, the Indians saw an alternative to the highly priced shell hair pipes. 4. Bone hair pipes did not become popular until after 1878. 5. This iformation would seem to indicate that any hair pipe used or traded during the RMFT era would have been made of shell. There were no footnotes to this article which pointed to any primary sources, and the suggested reading list pointed to no further information which might clear up the mystery; however, the book appeared to be well researched. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: diah's rifle? Date: 22 Aug 2000 18:22:09 -0500 > I've heard that "diah's" rifle is in a muesum and that for a time a copy of > it was produced by one of the Italian manufacture. does anyone have any > information on this thread??? > > I don't know who owned the rifle used as the pattern for the "Santa Fe Hawken" made by Uberti several years ago. That could be the gun you are refering to. These were quality guns, good shooters, and about 95% + historically correct copy. And in .53 cal, yet. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R Brubaker" <rbrubake@wyoming.com> Subject: MtMan-List: RE: What's in a name? Date: 22 Aug 2000 23:51:53 -0600 Hello, I have been lurking on this list for awhile now. I've been quiet because I am here under what some of you may consider false pretenses. Though my husband does some do black powder shooting and loves to rendezvous, I go as an observer rather than a participant. I am here because I'm a historical novelist and am currently doing a book with a mountain man hero. I stumbled onto your list one evening when I was researching on the internet and subscribed. It was a very smart move on my part. This is an incredibly knowledgeable group, and I can't tell you how much I've learned from your discussions. Right now, I was wondering if any of you might help me. I need a name for my mountain man character. He started out as a minor character named Whiskey Jug Johnson. As often happens with my books, by the time I finished writing the first book I'd thought of another book with Whiskey Jug as the main character. As I wrote, though, the story has evolved until it takes place twenty years earlier than I originally planned. In the meantime, Whiskey Jug's personality has changed so much that I actually have an entirely different character. So, now I need another name for one or the other of these guys. Any ideas? I'd sure appreciate any help you can give me. thanks Carolyn Lampman ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Cancelled Idaho Rendezvous Date: 23 Aug 2000 03:33:26 -0700 Hi Folks As with many other events in the west, the Cascade, Idaho Idaho Free Trapper Rendezvous, Sept 2-4, 2000, has been cancelled due to extreme fire conditions. Regards from the drylands Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: What's in a name? Date: 23 Aug 2000 08:13:21 -0600 --------------069CE30C5DA15DA4BE7B9EC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carolyn, Would love to help, how about some info first? What part of the froniter does the book set him in? Any particiliar time or events to date him by? Have you given him any special lineage? Does he have to have a "nick name" or do you want a real name with a nick name some friends call him? mike. my web pages R Brubaker wrote: > Hello, > I have been lurking on this list for awhile now. I've been quiet because I > am here under what some of you may consider false pretenses. Though my > husband does some do black powder shooting and loves to rendezvous, I go as > an observer rather than a participant. I am here because I'm a historical > novelist and am currently doing a book with a mountain man hero. I > stumbled onto your list one evening when I was researching on the internet > and subscribed. It was a very smart move on my part. This is an incredibly > knowledgeable group, and I can't tell you how much I've learned from your > discussions. > Right now, I was wondering if any of you might help me. I need a name for > my mountain man character. He started out as a minor character named > Whiskey Jug Johnson. As often happens with my books, by the time I finished > writing the first book I'd thought of another book with Whiskey Jug as the > main character. As I wrote, though, the story has evolved until it takes > place twenty years earlier than I originally planned. In the meantime, > Whiskey Jug's personality has changed so much that I actually have an > entirely different character. So, now I need another name for one or the > other of these guys. Any ideas? I'd sure appreciate any help you can give > me. > thanks > Carolyn Lampman > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --------------069CE30C5DA15DA4BE7B9EC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Carolyn, <br> Would love to help, how about some info first? What part of the <br>froniter does the book set him in? Any particiliar time or events to <br>date him by? Have you given him any special lineage? Does he <br>have to have a "nick name" or do you want a real name with a <br>nick name some friends call him? <br> mike. <p> <a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616">my web pages</a> <p>R Brubaker wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Hello, <br> I have been lurking on this list for awhile now. I've been quiet because I <br>am here under what some of you may consider false pretenses. Though my <br>husband does some do black powder shooting and loves to rendezvous, I go as <br>an observer rather than a participant. I am here because I'm a historical <br>novelist and am currently doing a book with a mountain man hero. I <br>stumbled onto your list one evening when I was researching on the internet <br>and subscribed. It was a very smart move on my part. This is an incredibly <br>knowledgeable group, and I can't tell you how much I've learned from your <br>discussions. <br> Right now, I was wondering if any of you might help me. I need a name for <br>my mountain man character. He started out as a minor character named <br>Whiskey Jug Johnson. As often happens with my books, by the time I finished <br>writing the first book I'd thought of another book with Whiskey Jug as the <br>main character. As I wrote, though, the story has evolved until it takes <br>place twenty years earlier than I originally planned. In the meantime, <br>Whiskey Jug's personality has changed so much that I actually have an <br>entirely different character. So, now I need another name for one or the <br>other of these guys. Any ideas? I'd sure appreciate any help you can give <br>me. <br>thanks <br>Carolyn Lampman <p>---------------------- <br>hist_text list info: <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a></blockquote> </html> --------------069CE30C5DA15DA4BE7B9EC2-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: What's in a name? Date: 23 Aug 2000 07:16:18 -0600 Carolyn, What time period? Where was he at? Where did he come from?Whom did he sell his fur's too?What nationality? All these thing's would give an indication of what his name could be. Also if you have a particular area and time you could go to list's and Journals from a particular company and time period to get a name. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "R Brubaker" <rbrubake@wyoming.com> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: RE: What's in a name? >Date: Tue, Aug 22, 2000, 11:51 PM > >Hello, > I have been lurking on this list for awhile now. I've been quiet because I >am here under what some of you may consider false pretenses. Though my >husband does some do black powder shooting and loves to rendezvous, I go as >an observer rather than a participant. I am here because I'm a historical >novelist and am currently doing a book with a mountain man hero. I >stumbled onto your list one evening when I was researching on the internet >and subscribed. It was a very smart move on my part. This is an incredibly >knowledgeable group, and I can't tell you how much I've learned from your >discussions. > Right now, I was wondering if any of you might help me. I need a name for >my mountain man character. He started out as a minor character named >Whiskey Jug Johnson. As often happens with my books, by the time I finished >writing the first book I'd thought of another book with Whiskey Jug as the >main character. As I wrote, though, the story has evolved until it takes >place twenty years earlier than I originally planned. In the meantime, >Whiskey Jug's personality has changed so much that I actually have an >entirely different character. So, now I need another name for one or the >other of these guys. Any ideas? I'd sure appreciate any help you can give >me. >thanks >Carolyn Lampman > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan Macready <Duncanm@ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: diah's rifle? Date: 24 Aug 2000 10:36:31 +1200 J.D wrote >I don't know who owned the rifle used as the pattern for the "Santa Fe >awken"made by Uberti several years ago. This was a copy of Kit Carson's rifle, unfortunately no longer made YMOS Cutfinger Friendships made,Problems shared Campfires across the wilderness. Auckland, New Zealand ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob Jones" <mljones@iguana.ruralnet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Santa Fe trade inquiry Date: 23 Aug 2000 21:43:20 -0700 Scott, I have some photo copies. You can contact me off list. Bob Jones mljones@iguana.ruralnet.net I was told there was some inventories for Bent's >Fort in the Chouteau collections but don't have a contact for this...any >help/suggestions? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: diah's rifle? Date: 23 Aug 2000 23:41:04 -0700 cutfinger--- believe don steith made the master pattern for the gun---he sell kits with his pattern which is i believe the came---contact me offline and i will give you his e-mail address --- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: What's in a name? Date: 24 Aug 2000 00:00:25 -0700 caroline---contact me offline and give me some more details of what you want---real name or camp name makes a big difference--- Just my humbel opinion of course?????? "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 25 Aug 2000 10:32:12 -0400 Hello List, I just received this from a friend and thought it might be worth looking into. I've attached a copy of th ebill below so that you don't have to go looking for it. I'm not sure if this has been discussed here before or not please forgive the redundency. YMOS Manbear > Check this bill out and contact your senators to kill this bill. It's > another gun grab. > > If you enjoy the rights you have, protect them now! > Subject: Gun Bill > > Subject: [Addicted2Reloading] SB 2099 - register your guns via the IRS 1040 > > Senate Bill SB-2099 will require us to put on our 2000 1040 federal tax > form all Handguns that you have or own. It may require fingerprints and a > tax This bill was introduced on Feb. 24. This bill will > become public knowledge 30 days after it is voted into law. This is an > amendment to the Internal Revenue Act of 1986. This means that the Finance > Committee can pass this without the Senate voting on it at all. > > The full text of the proposed amendment is on the U.S. Senate > http://www.senate.gov/ You can find the bill by doing a search by the bill > number. (SB-2099) > > Please send a copy of this e-mail to every gun owner you know to help STOP > this bill!! > Handgun Safety and Registration Act of 2000 (Introduced in the Senate) S 2099 IS 106th CONGRESS 2d Session S. 2099 To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to require the registration of handguns, and for other purposes. IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES February 24, 2000 Mr. REED introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Finance A BILL To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to require the registration of handguns, and for other purposes. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. This Act may be cited as the `Handgun Safety and Registration Act of 2000'. SEC. 2. REGISTRATION OF HANDGUNS. (a) HANDGUN INCLUDED IN DEFINITION OF FIREARM- (1) IN GENERAL- Section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (defining firearm) is amended by striking `and (8) a destructive device' and inserting `(8) a handgun; and (9) a destructive device'. (2) DEFINITION OF HANDGUN- Section 5845 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to definitions) is amended by adding at the end the following: `(n) HANDGUN- `(1) IN GENERAL- The term `handgun' means any weapon (including a starter gun) which-- `(A) is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and `(B) has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. `(2) DISASSEMBLED PARTS INCLUDED- Such term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, and any combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. `(3) EXCLUSION- Such term shall not include a firearm classified as `any other weapon' under subsection (e).'. (b) TRANSFER TAX IMPOSED ON HANDGUNS- Section 5811(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to rate) is amended by inserting `or as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8)' after `section 5845(e)'. (c) TAX ON MAKING FIREARMS IMPOSED ON HANDGUNS- Section 5821(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to rate) is amended by inserting `, except, the tax on any firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) shall be at the rate of $50 for each such firearm made' after `firearm made'. (d) IMPORTATION POLICY CONTINUED- (1) IN GENERAL- Section 5844 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to importation) is amended by adding at the end the following: `This section shall not apply to any firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8).'. (2) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 925(d)(3) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting `(without regard to paragraph (8) thereof)' after `section 5845(a)'. (e) SHARING OF REGISTRATION INFORMATION WITH STATE AND LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES- (1) IN GENERAL- Section 6103(o) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to disclosure of returns and return information with respect to certain taxes) is amended by adding at the end the following: `(3) TAXES IMPOSED ON TRANSFER OF HANDGUNS- Returns and return information with respect to taxes imposed by part II of subchapter A of chapter 53 (relating to tax on transferring firearms) on any firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) shall be available in an on-line format for inspection by or disclosure to officers and employees of-- `(A) any Federal law enforcement agency, and `(B) any State or local law enforcement agency, whose official duties require such inspection or disclosure.'. (2) CONFORMING AMENDMENTS- Section 6103(p)(4) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended-- (A) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A)-- (i) by striking `or (o)(1)' and inserting `(o)(1), or (o)(3)(A)', (ii) by striking `or (l)(6)' and inserting `(l)(6)', (iii) by inserting `or (o)(3)(B),' after `(16),', and (B) in subparagraph (F)(i)-- (i) by striking `or (l)(6)' and inserting `(l)(6)', and (ii) by inserting `or (o)(3)(B),' after `(16),', and (C) in subparagraph (F)(ii), by striking `or (o)(1)' and inserting `, (o)(1), or (o)(3)(A)'. (f) TRANSITION RULE FOR NONREGISTERED HANDGUNS- (1) IN GENERAL- Any person possessing any firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 not registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record maintained by the Secretary of the Treasury under section 5841 of such Code shall register such handgun-- (A) within 1 year of the date of the enactment of this Act, or (B) upon the transfer of such handgun before such 1 year anniversary date. (2) TREATMENT OF REGISTRATION AS TRANSFER- For purposes of any tax imposed by part II of subchapter A of chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to tax on transferring firearms) on any firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of such Code, any registration of such handgun under paragraph (1)(A) shall be considered a transfer of such handgun. (3) NONAPPLICATION OF PENALTY- Section 5861(d) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 shall not apply with respect to the possession of any handgun before the date of the registration of such handgun under paragraph (1). (g) PROVISION OF REGISTRATION FORMS- (1) AVAILABILITY- To promote and assist compliance with the handgun registration requirements under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended by this section, the Secretary of the Treasury shall make available such registration and fingerprint forms as may be required by the public for compliance with such requirements-- (A) to State and local law enforcement agencies and facilities of the Department of the Treasury throughout the States, the United States Postal Service, and such other agencies and departments of the Federal Government as the Secretary determines would aid in making such forms available to the public; and (B) through the Internet in a downloadable format. (2) SINGLE FORM- The Secretary of the Treasury shall make available registration forms that allow an individual to register the possession or transfer of more than 1 firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 on a single form. (h) PROGRAM OF PUBLIC AWARENESS- Within 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of the Treasury shall commence a program to broaden public awareness of the handgun registration requirements under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended by this section. Such program may include voluntary cooperative efforts with Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies and public service announcements as deemed appropriate by the Secretary. (i) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There are authorized to be appropriated such sums as may be necessary for the Secretary of the Treasury to carry out the provisions of and amendments made by this Act. (j) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this section shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: What's in a name? Date: 25 Aug 2000 11:16:14 EDT I like the name Longshot. Yeah that's the ticket. Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 25 Aug 2000 13:47:21 EDT Assumptions that gun registration is a "gun grab" is naive at best. The U. S. Supreme Court has always supported legitimate regulations on gun ownership and purchase-- but has not taken guns away-- and probably could not do so without public support (which is not likely). Registration can be a tool in the law enforcement for increasing the likelihood of judicial convictions for those who misuse the privilege of owing a handgun. Anyway, I find it difficult to believe that people need to own AK-47s or "Saturday Night Specials" to assist with historical reenactments or for the legitimate sport of hunting. Balancing public safety and individual rights is always a delicate effort. Reactionary comments about "gun grabs" do not help. SFH ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 25 Aug 2000 14:52:55 EDT That's exactly what my friend used to say. Where did he live? Oh yeah, Australia. Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken Jones" <kenandsusan@triton.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Bear Claws Date: 25 Aug 2000 16:51:28 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C00EB4.B6F22AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone - I am new to the list and was wondering if anybody has any info on = capping bear claws to make into a necklace. I came into some claws and = would like to make a necklace. If you have any info on bear claw = necklaces either modern or primitive, I would appreciate the info. =20 Thank You - Ken ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C00EB4.B6F22AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hello Everyone -</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=3Djustify><FONT size=3D2> I am new to the = list and was=20 wondering if anybody has any info on capping bear claws to make into a=20 necklace. I came into some claws and would like to make a = necklace. =20 If you have any info on bear claw necklaces either modern or primitive, = I would=20 appreciate the info. </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=3Djustify><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=3Djustify><FONT size=3D2>Thank You - = Ken</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C00EB4.B6F22AC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Claws Date: 25 Aug 2000 17:25:21 EDT Ken, you might try River Gems and Findings, located in Albuquerque at 800.443.6766. They sell end-caps with bales that are used to create pendants. Hope this is of some help, Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles P Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 25 Aug 2000 17:48:31 -0600 A Question, What planet do you live on? Reactionary, I think not, the right to possess our flint toys and all fire arms is in greater jeopardy now than in 1947 when I started doing living history and muzzle loading events. My rights have been infringed on now for some time by individuals who believe they are all knowing, and have all the answerers to what the people of the United Sates should or should not own, possess or how a certain person should indulge in his own personal recreation I do not own an AK47 nor will I probably ever desire one. The AK47 has become the "whipping boy" of all that seek to destroy our owner ship without registration of hand guns, rifles and including shotguns is looked down on and thought to have absolutely no value as a hunter or target gun. It is simply thought of as an assault rifle. Not all that many years ago my Brown Bess was also was considered to be an assault weapon. So If a person wants to enjoy shooting an semi-auto and feels that that is his cup of tea so be it. Your comment indicates that you believe that only certain firearms should be allowed to be owned by US ctiizens and that the government should more strongly regulate who can or who cannot own what. I believe this idea is against what our founding fathers had in mind when this great great nation was created and certainly I do not feel that they intended that the people of this country be required to register what fire arms they might own or possess. Does a person planning to commit a crime submit to a Local, State or F.B.I. background check ? Answer, NEVER! I am required by law to submit to these background checks when purchasing any new fire arm. The criminal or felon can lie and get away with it most of the time, but a law abiding citizen is held to a difererent and in my minds eye unfair standard. The Fed. Gov. already has more info on you and I than they need! My thoughts are that you are the naive one, but I will respect your right to believe as you wish, however I am sure that the news media will have some great photos of the "jack booted thugs" prying my Brown Bess from my cold dead hands because I refuse to include my finger prints and a listing of firearms that I own on any filing with the I.R.S. or any government agency for that matter. BTW I own several snubby S& W 's that I used for many years for law enforcement they fall under the Federal description of "Saturday Night Specials". I would like to know when and where I could locate a few Colts, or Smiths for $29.95 which in my area is the going price for Sat Nite Specials! This post is NOT an attack, simply a disagreement! Have a good day, I shall say no more, and will now crawl back into my lurking corner! The Old Coyote On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:47:21 EDT Huss931@aol.com writes: > Assumptions that gun registration is a "gun grab" is naive at >best. The >U. S. Supreme Court has always supported legitimate regulations on gun > >ownership and purchase-- but has not taken guns away-- and probably >could not >do so without public support (which is not likely). Registration can >be a >tool in the law enforcement for increasing the likelihood of judicial > >convictions for those who misuse the privilege of owing a handgun. > Anyway, I find it difficult to believe that people need to own >AK-47s or >"Saturday Night Specials" to assist with historical reenactments or >for the >legitimate sport of hunting. > Balancing public safety and individual rights is always a delicate > >effort. Reactionary comments about "gun grabs" do not help. > SFH > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: 2 items of on-topic interest Date: 25 Aug 2000 20:45:57 -0400 (EDT) Does anyone in the AMM camp or on the list know if a distinguished gentleman by the name of Dalton "Hugging Bear" Halbrook is an AMM member? He spoke at the Friendship Primitive for about 30 seconds on the 08-19 [Sat., 11am-1130am EDT] American Shooter program on TNN Outdoors. The September 2000 issue of National Geographic has a map supplement. On one side is The Pathfinders [1803-1848], Exploring the Far Frontiers. It features 24 color coded trails blazed by various explorers. The first 19 span the time frame from 1804-1834, while the last 5 cover 1841-1846. It also has forts, trading posts, camps, Indian tribes, Indian villages, Missions, Rendezvous sites, and Points of interest all marked on it. Only wish it was on both sides. Other side is Western Migration 1841-1869. Maybe NGS will have something really special upcoming for the L&C 200th. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eldon Ayers" <2badger@3rivers.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 25 Aug 2000 18:48:12 -0600 Dear Mr. Old Coyote, I could not agree with you more. I am not attracted to fully automatic weapons, but I am considering going through the pain and heart ache to purchase one. Why? BECAUSE it is a RIGHT and FREEDOM provided by the Constitution of the United States of America. It has nothing to do with whether I need one or not. That is a FREEDOM guaranteed in the Constitution and repeated in the Bill of Rights. The Constitution is the Supreme Law of this land written to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority! I do not care how badly the liberal sheep and media demonize the AK47 or assault weapons, they are just guns. Just like flintlocks, pistols, shotguns, etc. The current trend in gun control laws is no more than an erosion of our individual rights. The United States position as recently argued in front of the Supreme Court is that as citizens of this country we do not have any rights other than those the government wants to grant us!!! Just try to believe and comprehend that one! The Clinton-Gore administration is arguing that they will determine what rights and freedoms are best for us. I hate to say it, but there is no such thing as "reactionary comments about gun grabs" . There are way too many good people that have forgotten that FREEDOM and LIBERTY did not come without the blood of many. If more people do not wake up to the slow erosion of our rights and freedoms, we will soon have such wise people as Hillary, of Bill Clinton telling us what freedoms we can have, because they know what is best for us. I do not believe those two low-lifes nor their cronies need to be making those kinds of decisions for me or any one else. Thank you Old Coyote for your response. It really scares me to think that complacency is so rampant in our society that Precious Liberty and Freedom are willingly forfeited by misinformed citizens who actually believe the media propaganda about "assault rifles and "Saturday night specials". Guns are just inanimate objects exactly like cars, computers, trains, airplanes, screwdrivers, hammers, and baseball bats. They possess no ability to be evil or bad. Blunt object homicide is more common than handgun homicide. Is the IRS going to register baseball bats and tax them. It's about FREEDOM and LIBERTY. "I know not what course others may choose, but as for me, give me Liberty or give me Death."-Patrick Henry Those are some powerful words. What is more powerful to me is the fact that the founding fathers did not just talk the talk. They all laid their lives on the line for FREEDOM. Many paid the ultimate price. I ask myself often, "Would I be brave enough today to make the same choice? I hope I will never have to find out. I encourage any and all of you to buy, shoot, and enjoy all of the firearms you can acquire. If they burn charcoal great, if they are an AK47 great, they are belt-fed machine guns, great. To do so is a RIGHT guaranteed in the Constitution. To pursue Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness is the basis of the Declaration of Independence. To exercise your RIGHTS is called FREEDOM. I know this is a long rant, but FREEDOM is so precious and so many have died for us to enjoy it, I get carried away. Thanks to all that read this entire message. You may want to check out http://usff.com It's a web site you may find interesting. Eldon Ayers -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Charles P Webb Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 5:49 PM A Question, What planet do you live on? Reactionary, I think not, the right to possess our flint toys and all fire arms is in greater jeopardy now than in 1947 when I started doing living history and muzzle loading events. My rights have been infringed on now for some time by individuals who believe they are all knowing, and have all the answerers to what the people of the United Sates should or should not own, possess or how a certain person should indulge in his own personal recreation I do not own an AK47 nor will I probably ever desire one. The AK47 has become the "whipping boy" of all that seek to destroy our owner ship without registration of hand guns, rifles and including shotguns is looked down on and thought to have absolutely no value as a hunter or target gun. It is simply thought of as an assault rifle. Not all that many years ago my Brown Bess was also was considered to be an assault weapon. So If a person wants to enjoy shooting an semi-auto and feels that that is his cup of tea so be it. Your comment indicates that you believe that only certain firearms should be allowed to be owned by US ctiizens and that the government should more strongly regulate who can or who cannot own what. I believe this idea is against what our founding fathers had in mind when this great great nation was created and certainly I do not feel that they intended that the people of this country be required to register what fire arms they might own or possess. Does a person planning to commit a crime submit to a Local, State or F.B.I. background check ? Answer, NEVER! I am required by law to submit to these background checks when purchasing any new fire arm. The criminal or felon can lie and get away with it most of the time, but a law abiding citizen is held to a difererent and in my minds eye unfair standard. The Fed. Gov. already has more info on you and I than they need! My thoughts are that you are the naive one, but I will respect your right to believe as you wish, however I am sure that the news media will have some great photos of the "jack booted thugs" prying my Brown Bess from my cold dead hands because I refuse to include my finger prints and a listing of firearms that I own on any filing with the I.R.S. or any government agency for that matter. BTW I own several snubby S& W 's that I used for many years for law enforcement they fall under the Federal description of "Saturday Night Specials". I would like to know when and where I could locate a few Colts, or Smiths for $29.95 which in my area is the going price for Sat Nite Specials! This post is NOT an attack, simply a disagreement! Have a good day, I shall say no more, and will now crawl back into my lurking corner! The Old Coyote On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:47:21 EDT Huss931@aol.com writes: > Assumptions that gun registration is a "gun grab" is naive at >best. The >U. S. Supreme Court has always supported legitimate regulations on gun > >ownership and purchase-- but has not taken guns away-- and probably >could not >do so without public support (which is not likely). Registration can >be a >tool in the law enforcement for increasing the likelihood of judicial > >convictions for those who misuse the privilege of owing a handgun. > Anyway, I find it difficult to believe that people need to own >AK-47s or >"Saturday Night Specials" to assist with historical reenactments or >for the >legitimate sport of hunting. > Balancing public safety and individual rights is always a delicate > >effort. Reactionary comments about "gun grabs" do not help. > SFH > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" <stitchin@tekhullogy.com> Subject: MtMan-List: congratulaton notice Date: 25 Aug 2000 20:21:01 -0500 Let it be known to all my Brothers far and wide: Our Capitaine, George "Short Step" Thompson is to be joined in wedded bliss to Miss Elaine{ who you would know if you have ever been to any of the shinein' doins at the La Purisima Mission in Lompoc, California}, at 7:00 a.m. [pacific] tomorrow morning. Lift your glasses boys!! To their long life, health AND that Elaine has at least some idea of the lifestyle that lays in front of her!! <G> John 'Long John' McKee #1677 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 25 Aug 2000 20:46:31 -0500 Eldon,=20 Right on, brother. My father died an old man at the age of 46 due to = nazi bullet wounds suffered in August 1944 in defense of those = liberties. YF&B Lanney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert M Keefe <doctarie@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 25 Aug 2000 22:21:06 -0400 I to agree with Charles Webb and he said well . I certainly hope huss931 is not the views of average Joe American . Our rights slip through our fingers everyday, little by little and what do we give up next? On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:47:21 EDT Huss931@aol.com writes: > Assumptions that gun registration is a "gun grab" is naive at > best. The > U. S. Supreme Court has always supported legitimate regulations on > gun > ownership and purchase-- but has not taken guns away-- and probably > could not > do so without public support (which is not likely). Registration > can be a > tool in the law enforcement for increasing the likelihood of > judicial > convictions for those who misuse the privilege of owing a handgun. > Anyway, I find it difficult to believe that people need to own > AK-47s or > "Saturday Night Specials" to assist with historical reenactments or > for the > legitimate sport of hunting. > Balancing public safety and individual rights is always a > delicate > effort. Reactionary comments about "gun grabs" do not help. > SFH > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Congrats Date: 25 Aug 2000 20:37:50 -0600 Congratulations Capitaine George!!! May you and the Mrs share many happy trails together!! "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 25 Aug 2000 22:31:22 -0700 what part of "infringed" don't you understand. are you for real? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 10:47 AM > Assumptions that gun registration is a "gun grab" is naive at best. The > U. S. Supreme Court has always supported legitimate regulations on gun > ownership and purchase-- but has not taken guns away-- and probably could not > do so without public support (which is not likely). Registration can be a > tool in the law enforcement for increasing the likelihood of judicial > convictions for those who misuse the privilege of owing a handgun. > Anyway, I find it difficult to believe that people need to own AK-47s or > "Saturday Night Specials" to assist with historical reenactments or for the > legitimate sport of hunting. > Balancing public safety and individual rights is always a delicate > effort. Reactionary comments about "gun grabs" do not help. > SFH > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 26 Aug 2000 00:46:27 EDT Right on Target Eldon. Its not so much just about guns. It is an erosion of our rights. After guns....what next.....speech?.......religion? Where will the erosion end? Now is the time for all to stand and be heard. Quit frankly, I'm sick and tired of the political bantering and how it quietly and subtly leads this country right down the road to hell (read loss of Liberty and Freedom) Gun control is just any easy argument. "get rid of guns....stop crime and death? Yea, sure. Flawed logic at best. I could go on and on as I am sure many of you could and would. Lets go on and on where it counts...in public at every opporetunity to defend our rights. Its time we found some honest statesmen and supported them and booted the "professional politicians" right out the door. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 26 Aug 2000 08:27:38 -0500 -----Original Message----- > I to agree with Charles Webb and he said well . I certainly hope >huss931 is not the views of average Joe American . Our rights slip >through our fingers everyday, little by little and what do we give up >next? If I remember correctly from the last time we talked about this subject it, huss931 interprets the 2nd amendment differently (as do many gun control advocates) in that he believes that it only provides citizens the rights to have a well regulated militia to protect the state. It does not provide individuals the right to have arms other than for militia use. I think the supreme court has agreed with this in the past. I never agreed with that argument for a very simple reason. Seems to me the constitution was very carefully designed to provide a system of checks and balances. This is the wntire basis of the founding of our country, I believe. At the time it was drafted the militia was the common peoples "balance" to the threat of an all to powerfull central governments "check". Granted, things are very different than at the time the constitution was drafted, one thing being that the people have no militia to protect them from an all to powerfull government. Certainly the reserves and the national guard couldn't be considered militia as they are directed by the federal government. So to all the people who think that the 2nd amendment does not provide individuals the right to keep and bear arms, and that gun control laws should be strengthened to prevent citizens form having arms the way we do now, I ask, WHERE IS THE CHECK AND BALANCE IN THAT???? northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 26 Aug 2000 08:17:52 -0600 James, I am a activist in the Republican party, and I have just e-mailed both Senators from Utah, to give them a heads up on this bill and I have asked both of them to fight against it. I use to be a Democrat but many years ago they walked away from my beliefs and the Constitution and I joined the Republican Party. This years election will determin the survival of our Constitution and the Bill of Rights and it is time for us all to defend those principals. Please get involved or we may just be talking about our rights in the past tence. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: James Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> >To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] >Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000, 8:32 AM > >Hello List, >I just received this from a friend and thought it might be worth looking >into. I've attached a copy of th ebill below so that you don't have to go >looking for it. I'm not sure if this has been discussed here before or not >please forgive the redundency. > >YMOS >Manbear > > >> Check this bill out and contact your senators to kill this bill. It's >> another gun grab. >> >> If you enjoy the rights you have, protect them now! >> Subject: Gun Bill >> >> Subject: [Addicted2Reloading] SB 2099 - register your guns via the IRS 1040 >> >> Senate Bill SB-2099 will require us to put on our 2000 1040 federal tax >> form all Handguns that you have or own. It may require fingerprints and a >> tax This bill was introduced on Feb. 24. This bill will >> become public knowledge 30 days after it is voted into law. This is an >> amendment to the Internal Revenue Act of 1986. This means that the Finance >> Committee can pass this without the Senate voting on it at all. >> >> The full text of the proposed amendment is on the U.S. Senate >> http://www.senate.gov/ You can find the bill by doing a search by the bill >> number. (SB-2099) >> >> Please send a copy of this e-mail to every gun owner you know to help STOP >> this bill!! >> > >Handgun Safety and Registration Act of 2000 (Introduced in the Senate) > >S 2099 IS > > 106th CONGRESS > > 2d Session > > S. 2099 > >To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to require the registration of >handguns, and for other purposes. > > IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED >STATES > > February 24, 2000 > >Mr. REED introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to >the Committee on Finance > > > > A BILL > >To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to require the registration of >handguns, and for other purposes. > > Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United >States of America in Congress assembled, > >SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. > > This Act may be cited as the `Handgun Safety and Registration Act of >2000'. > >SEC. 2. REGISTRATION OF HANDGUNS. > > (a) HANDGUN INCLUDED IN DEFINITION OF FIREARM- > > (1) IN GENERAL- Section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of >1986 (defining firearm) is amended by striking `and (8) a destructive device' >and inserting `(8) > a handgun; and (9) a destructive device'. > > (2) DEFINITION OF HANDGUN- Section 5845 of the Internal Revenue >Code of 1986 (relating to definitions) is amended by adding at the end the >following: > > `(n) HANDGUN- > > `(1) IN GENERAL- The term `handgun' means any weapon (including a >starter gun) which-- > > `(A) is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a >projectile by the action of an explosive, and > > `(B) has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired >by the use of a single hand. > > `(2) DISASSEMBLED PARTS INCLUDED- Such term shall also include >the frame or receiver of any such weapon, and any combination of parts from >which a > handgun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or >under the control of a person. > > `(3) EXCLUSION- Such term shall not include a firearm classified >as `any other weapon' under subsection (e).'. > > (b) TRANSFER TAX IMPOSED ON HANDGUNS- Section 5811(a) of the Internal >Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to rate) is amended by inserting `or as a >handgun under > section 5845(a)(8)' after `section 5845(e)'. > > (c) TAX ON MAKING FIREARMS IMPOSED ON HANDGUNS- Section 5821(a) of the >Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to rate) is amended by inserting `, > except, the tax on any firearm classified as a handgun under section >5845(a)(8) shall be at the rate of $50 for each such firearm made' after >`firearm made'. > > (d) IMPORTATION POLICY CONTINUED- > > (1) IN GENERAL- Section 5844 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 >(relating to importation) is amended by adding at the end the following: `This >section shall > not apply to any firearm classified as a handgun under section >5845(a)(8).'. > > (2) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 925(d)(3) of title 18, United >States Code, is amended by inserting `(without regard to paragraph (8) >thereof)' after > `section 5845(a)'. > > (e) SHARING OF REGISTRATION INFORMATION WITH STATE AND LOCAL LAW >ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES- > > (1) IN GENERAL- Section 6103(o) of the Internal Revenue Code of >1986 (relating to disclosure of returns and return information with respect to >certain taxes) is > amended by adding at the end the following: > > `(3) TAXES IMPOSED ON TRANSFER OF HANDGUNS- Returns and return >information with respect to taxes imposed by part II of subchapter A of chapter >53 > (relating to tax on transferring firearms) on any firearm >classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) shall be available in an >on-line format for inspection by or > disclosure to officers and employees of-- > > `(A) any Federal law enforcement agency, and > > `(B) any State or local law enforcement agency, > > whose official duties require such inspection or disclosure.'. > > (2) CONFORMING AMENDMENTS- Section 6103(p)(4) of the Internal >Revenue Code of 1986 is amended-- > > (A) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A)-- > > (i) by striking `or (o)(1)' and inserting `(o)(1), >or (o)(3)(A)', > > (ii) by striking `or (l)(6)' and inserting `(l)(6)', > > (iii) by inserting `or (o)(3)(B),' after `(16),', >and > > (B) in subparagraph (F)(i)-- > > (i) by striking `or (l)(6)' and inserting `(l)(6)', >and > > (ii) by inserting `or (o)(3)(B),' after `(16),', and > > (C) in subparagraph (F)(ii), by striking `or (o)(1)' and >inserting `, (o)(1), or (o)(3)(A)'. > > (f) TRANSITION RULE FOR NONREGISTERED HANDGUNS- > > (1) IN GENERAL- Any person possessing any firearm classified as a >handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 not >registered in the > National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record maintained by >the Secretary of the Treasury under section 5841 of such Code shall register >such handgun-- > > (A) within 1 year of the date of the enactment of this Act, >or > > (B) upon the transfer of such handgun before such 1 year >anniversary date. > > (2) TREATMENT OF REGISTRATION AS TRANSFER- For purposes of any >tax imposed by part II of subchapter A of chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue >Code > of 1986 (relating to tax on transferring firearms) on any firearm >classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of such Code, any registration >of such handgun > under paragraph (1)(A) shall be considered a transfer of such >handgun. > > (3) NONAPPLICATION OF PENALTY- Section 5861(d) of the Internal >Revenue Code of 1986 shall not apply with respect to the possession of any >handgun > before the date of the registration of such handgun under >paragraph (1). > > (g) PROVISION OF REGISTRATION FORMS- > > (1) AVAILABILITY- To promote and assist compliance with the >handgun registration requirements under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as >amended by this > section, the Secretary of the Treasury shall make available such >registration and fingerprint forms as may be required by the public for >compliance with such > requirements-- > > (A) to State and local law enforcement agencies and >facilities of the Department of the Treasury throughout the States, the United >States Postal Service, and > such other agencies and departments of the Federal >Government as the Secretary determines would aid in making such forms available >to the public; and > > (B) through the Internet in a downloadable format. > > (2) SINGLE FORM- The Secretary of the Treasury shall make >available registration forms that allow an individual to register the >possession or transfer of more than > 1 firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of the >Internal Revenue Code of 1986 on a single form. > > (h) PROGRAM OF PUBLIC AWARENESS- Within 60 days after the date of the >enactment of this Act, the Secretary of the Treasury shall commence a program >to broaden > public awareness of the handgun registration requirements under the >Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended by this section. Such program may >include voluntary > cooperative efforts with Federal, State, and local law enforcement >agencies and public service announcements as deemed appropriate by the >Secretary. > > (i) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There are authorized to be >appropriated such sums as may be necessary for the Secretary of the Treasury to >carry out the > provisions of and amendments made by this Act. > > (j) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this section shall take >effect on the date of the enactment of this Act. > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: MtMan-List: tea bricks Date: 26 Aug 2000 12:00:34 -0600 Need to know where I can buy wholesale some blk tea bricks in the 16 square blocks Used to buy from Sherman, Paul, do you still carry them JOe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eldon Ayers" <2badger@3rivers.net> Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TOPIC: Handgun Safety and Registration Act of 2000 Date: 26 Aug 2000 12:16:56 -0600 Hello To ALL, We all got a heads up last night on Senate Bill 2099 (Sponsored by Jack Reed, Democrat, Rhode Island). Its status is that it was submitted to Committee. It is truly a scary bill aimed at making any one who owns a handgun a criminal. Now, this bill does not differentiate about what kind of handgun. Anything that sends a projectile from a powder charge as I read the bill. So, this is pertinent to all of us charcoal burners as well as smokeless folks. Simply, this bill as a reorganization of the IRS tax laws would require registration of all handguns (no exception for antiques etc), a $50 tax on each such gun owned, and mandatory fingerprinting of the owner! Non-compliance would be a felony. Remember convicted felons are denied the right to own guns. Enforcement of this ACT would necessarily fall to the Department of the Treasury as they enforce tax collection. That means the BATF would essentially have unlimited powers of search and seizure. You know, the "Jack Booted Thugs" of the Federal Government, who have been reprimanded and labeled as out of control by Congressional investigation. If this does not scare the living hell out of you, I do not know what will. Maybe the day someone is kicking in your front door might get your attention. It is estimated there are 28 million registered competitive shooters in the United States. Add in us mountainy man types, hunters, plinkers, self defense, and other gun owners and that number grows considerably. I have this fantasy that ALL of the gun owners and shooters feel about freedom and rights as I do. And that ALL of the gun owners would be happy to write their Senators to express their feelings about this Freedom robbing type of legislation. I want to share a quote with you. "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future.' Do you suppose that was Bill Clinton, Rosey O'Donnell, Al Gore, Diane Feinstein, or Jack Reed? Nope. Maybe Charles Schumer. Nope. Some political official from Australia? Not even close. That little jewel came straight from Adolph Hitler in 1935. Remember him? Remember what he and his boys did to the defenseless Ukrainian peasants? Or the French Resistance? I know you cannot forget the Jews. Well, I am all fired up about Freedom and Liberty and what the Washington crowd has forgotten or ignored concerning the Unalienable Rights of the citizens of the United States as outlined in the Constitution and reaffirmed in the Bill of Rights. I now, as a favor of all members of this list. Please write or e-mail your Senators and ask them to defeat this horrendous Liberty robbing legislation. Then, as I have done, write to Senator Reed and ask him to resign from office and then reread the Constitution (if he has ever read it in the first place). Again, in my fantasy world over 28 million requests would not be ignored. Remember, all Congressmen and Senators, Judicial, and Executive Branch employees of the Federal Government have sworn to uphold the Constitution as the Supreme Law of this Land. This blatant attack on Life, Liberty, and the Pursue of Happiness is a travesty. The founding fathers and subsequently millions of United States citizens have lost their fortunes, health, and lives to fight for FREEDOM. WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO? Thank you for your time and I apologize to the list for the OFF TOPIC posting. Eldon Ayers (2badger) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gail jenner <gfiorini@sisqtel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Gun bill in Congress/rights Date: 26 Aug 2000 11:41:02 -0700 Thought the following quotes are food for thought: "The necessity of the times, more than ever, calls for our utmost circumspection, deliberation, fortitude and perseverance. Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our doom.' It is a very serious consideration...that millions yet unborn may be the miserable sharers of the event." (Samuel Adams, speech, 1771) "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are 'beneficial'..the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." (Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, 1928, from California Gun Owners, Summer 2000) And, as an example of the kind of thinking that is beginning to permeate out courts and many people, "A California man has been fined $10,000, two days in jail, 100 hours of community service, and three years probation for using a SLINGSHOT to scare away a barn owl that was causing a ruckus outside his home. The man was found guilty of one count of cruelty to animals and also guilty of a wildlife code violation. The man noted that the fine might as well be a million. He and his wife live paycheck to paycheck. (Resource Roundup, Nov-Dec, 1999) As ranchers and farmers, our family is suffering under this kind of thinking daily. We are being accused of every kind of abuse, while millionaires and others move into our rural communities, building their amazing 'second' homes, but inflicting more and more demands that limit our rights. It's a scary business anymore. Three local ranchers who had to fold, found their ranches bought up by the federal govt. that was willing to double the going price, so that noone else could purchase the ground. The 3 ranches are now being converted into preserves. Ironically, the two other "preserves" established recently locally look like scrub ground; everyone points to the ranches on EITHER side of it when they think they're passing the RESERVES. So, tell me, what goes on with our political minds these days/??? I, too, shall return to lurk mode. Thanks for letting me "spout!" -- Gail L. Fiorini-Jenner gfiorini@sisqtel.net ACROSS THE SWEET GRASS HILLS, to be released OCTOBER 2000 ISBN#0-88739-302-0 "Dream lofty dreams -- and as you dream, so shall you become." - John Ruskin difiorini.com - coming soon! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gail jenner <gfiorini@sisqtel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Guns/rights Date: 26 Aug 2000 11:47:43 -0700 A quick P.S. to my last post: for those of you in California, and those who are not ought to at least hear this new twist, please call about AB 1839 if you think our rights ARE being infringed upon!!! This bill not only calls for water rights to be revoked for the cause of Los Angeles water users, the bill has an addendum that allows the government to CONDEMN a rancher/farmer's 150 year old right and then CONFISCATE the water -- if the rancher/farmer REFUSES to sell his water right!!!! Not only that, but there is another addendum that creates an eco-panel which includes NOT one single rancher/farmer (that would be TOO biased!), but is an arbitrary panel of eco-rights people!! Boxer and Feinstein support the bill wholeheartedly!!! I, too, USED to be a Democrat, but have found that party to be so hypocritical and so federally top-heavy, I can't abide it. "What more can the government do????" Everything it does seems to cost more and effect less.... Again, I'll slip into my hole now that I'm done ranting!!! -- Gail L. Fiorini-Jenner gfiorini@sisqtel.net ACROSS THE SWEET GRASS HILLS, to be released OCTOBER 2000 ISBN#0-88739-302-0 "Dream lofty dreams -- and as you dream, so shall you become." - John Ruskin difiorini.com - coming soon! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tea bricks Date: 26 Aug 2000 15:19:07 -0500 I have 20 being shipped to me next week (I have to buy them in quantities/mulitples of 20). Six of the bricks in this order are already sold, so that leaves 14 for now. I wholesale them for $12.00 each plus shipping. No minimum. Suggested retail is $20.00. They are going very well, strangely enough, with interior decorators, hence I am having trouble keeping them in stock! Do you have a need for any of the other items Kim used to wholesale? Good to hear from you. Regards, Paul ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 26 Aug 2000 18:52:43 -0600 ;As long as I don't use it to commit a felony, it is none of you business = if I own an AK-47 or not. On Saturday, October 14, 1939, Huss931@aol.com wrote: > Assumptions that gun registration is a "gun grab" is naive at best. = The=20 >U. S. Supreme Court has always supported legitimate regulations on gun=20 >ownership and purchase-- but has not taken guns away-- and probably could = not=20 >do so without public support (which is not likely). Registration can be = a=20 >tool in the law enforcement for increasing the likelihood of judicial=20 >convictions for those who misuse the privilege of owing a handgun. =20 > Anyway, I find it difficult to believe that people need to own AK-47s = or=20 >"Saturday Night Specials" to assist with historical reenactments or for = the=20 >legitimate sport of hunting. =20 > Balancing public safety and individual rights is always a delicate=20 >effort. Reactionary comments about "gun grabs" do not help. > SFH=20 > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:OT question Date: 26 Aug 2000 20:23:28 -0500 Northwoods, Your last post came through with no headers or sender information. How did you do that? Please contact off list. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john kramer@kramerize.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 26 Aug 2000 19:54:30 -0600 SFH, Who ever you are, you are scary. What is realy being said is that the Government (US) doesn't trust the people! when will they tell us that we can't be trusted to vote correctly. "We are the government" those law makers and bureacrats work for us. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] >Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000, 6:52 PM > >;As long as I don't use it to commit a felony, it is none of you business >if I own an AK-47 or not. > >On Saturday, October 14, 1939, Huss931@aol.com wrote: >> Assumptions that gun registration is a "gun grab" is naive at best. The >>U. S. Supreme Court has always supported legitimate regulations on gun >>ownership and purchase-- but has not taken guns away-- and probably could not >>do so without public support (which is not likely). Registration can be a >>tool in the law enforcement for increasing the likelihood of judicial >>convictions for those who misuse the privilege of owing a handgun. >> Anyway, I find it difficult to believe that people need to own AK-47s or >>"Saturday Night Specials" to assist with historical reenactments or for the >>legitimate sport of hunting. >> Balancing public safety and individual rights is always a delicate >>effort. Reactionary comments about "gun grabs" do not help. >> SFH >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MdntRdr1@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 26 Aug 2000 22:06:47 EDT For anyone who has issues with this, read my signature "I resent 'experts' who have never faced deadly threat, yet who tell me - and you - that we should not consider a response of equal power against those who would threaten our lives." -- Massad Ayoob ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: definitions F.Y.i. Date: 26 Aug 2000 20:27:57 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C00F9C.1F0C79C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just in case someone out there doesn't UNDERSTAND the word [I love this = word, it's great isn't it?] Infringed \ verb, date; = 1533 #1 to break, to encroach upon in any way that violates, the law = or the rights of another.#2 defeat, frustrate,or trespass. infringement\ noun, date 1623 #1 the act of infringing: violation, = an encroachment or trespass on a right or a privilege ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C00F9C.1F0C79C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#f0e8d8> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just in case someone out there doesn't = UNDERSTAND=20 the word [I love this word, it's great isn't=20 it?] &nb= sp; =20 Infringed \ verb, date; 1533 #1 to=20 break, to encroach upon in any way that violates, the law or = the=20 rights of another.#2 defeat, frustrate,or trespass.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>infringement\ noun, = date=20 1623 #1 the act of infringing: violation, an encroachment or = trespass on a right or a privilege</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C00F9C.1F0C79C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control Date: 27 Aug 2000 03:16:39 GMT Gentlemen, I hate to be the one to say this and mean no offense to anyone...but this is, I thought, supposed to be a list to discuss history of the furtrade. The topic of gun laws/control always seems to upset lists/groups like this. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I was under the impression that this list was for expressing opinions dealing with the furtrade, not politics! This same thing seriously upset the interests of another e-mail group for a re-enactment association I belong to and I hope it does not affect this list in the same way. Please don't take offense(none was meant) but enough is enough... Sincerely, Scott McMahon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control Date: 26 Aug 2000 20:38:38 -0700 On Sat, 26 August 2000, "scott mcmahon" wrote: > > Gentlemen, > > I hate to be the one to say this and mean no offense to anyone...but this > is, I thought, supposed to be a list to discuss history of the furtrade. The > topic of gun laws/control always seems to upset lists/groups like this.... > > Sincerely, > Scott McMahon The latest issue of Muzzleloader talks of the movie industry and their way of seeing guns and control, but Scott says "enough is enough" ? Wonder if that's what they said down under when their guns where taken away a year or so ago ! Now they can talk a little history, about the good old days when they use to have this type of gun or had one of those once. Guns and their control has been a heated subject ever since the invention of them, whether a fire pole or a semi-automatic shotgun, you name the year, then research it and you'll find a heated discussion from one group or another. Sad to say, Charles E. Hanson, Jr. told Buck and several other members of a Colorado muzzle loading club that if he had to start collecting again (he was referring to the Museum of the Fur Trade) he would do expensive cars, never collect guns or weapons again. He was a world traveler and had seen what gun control does to modern ones (cut-up) as well as antique guns (those in major collection in some countries with plugged barrels, hammers weld to the breeches, etc.). If we don't fight this problem Scott, our sport will be gone - we can be camp followers with racks and forks, until they are outlawed. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control Date: 26 Aug 2000 21:46:38 -0600 Maybe someone should start a "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" e-mail group. "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eldon Ayers" <2badger@3rivers.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control Date: 26 Aug 2000 22:04:19 -0600 Scott, In all due respect, when I put OFF TOPIC on my message it was to inform others of the nature of the post. Please use the delete button if you feel OFF TOPIC posts are inappropriate. Unfortunately, right now is a time when freedom and liberty is being threatened daily. In my opinion the fur trade was built by men expressing their individual rights and freedoms and using guns to help them do so. Having access to flintlock or percussion pistols is integral to my experiential understanding of the fur trade. No offense taken at your comments. I am saddened by the complacency reflected in your post. I fear there are too many others that share that same kind of complacency. Again, no offense meant on my part. Eldon Ayers -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of scott mcmahon Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 9:17 PM Gentlemen, I hate to be the one to say this and mean no offense to anyone...but this is, I thought, supposed to be a list to discuss history of the furtrade. The topic of gun laws/control always seems to upset lists/groups like this. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I was under the impression that this list was for expressing opinions dealing with the furtrade, not politics! This same thing seriously upset the interests of another e-mail group for a re-enactment association I belong to and I hope it does not affect this list in the same way. Please don't take offense(none was meant) but enough is enough... Sincerely, Scott McMahon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control Date: 27 Aug 2000 00:14:15 EDT > If we don't fight this problem Scott, our sport will be gone - we can be camp > followers with racks and forks, until they are outlawed. Concho, !0% of the population are gunowners. !0% are anti-gun. The other 80% are ambivalent unless something causes them personally to sway one way or the other. We are among the 10% who own, use, and fight for our guns and gun rights. It is pointless to argue among ourselves. We only end up pissing one another off, and we are on the same side. Expend your time and energy trying to convince the 80%. Since they are not members of this list, that is best done where they are at.......which is not here. Lists exist to argue gun rights, RKBA, gun politics and all related subjects. If you feel the need to join one of them, do it. We joined this one to talk about the RMFT. Let's do that. In case anyone bothered to check on the validity of the original spam message which started this whole thread, that particular bill is dead in commitee and not expected to ever get out for the vote. Those who forward these "Alerts" all over the internet are nothing more than instigators. You have all taken the bait. Take the time to verify some of this crap which gets distributed, because most of the time, that's all it is..........CRAP. Divide and Conquer.......yep, they seem to have accomplished that, didn't they? Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control Date: 27 Aug 2000 00:15:35 EDT tetontodd@juno.com writes: > Maybe someone should start a "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" e-mail group. They already exist.......in great numbers. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control Date: 27 Aug 2000 05:05:13 GMT Gentlemen, Don't misinterpret my comments to mean I have a complacent view of gun control...I just feel that the subject is not approppriate here! Mr. Kanger has my feelings nailed, thank you for your posting. Scott McMahon -We are among the 10% who own, use, and fight for our guns and gun rights. It is pointless to argue among ourselves. We only end up pissing one another off, and we are on the same side. Expend your time and energy trying to convince the 80%. Since they are not members of this list, that is best done where they are at.......which is not here. Lists exist to argue gun rights, RKBA, gun politics and all related subjects. If you feel the need to join one of them, do it. We joined this one to talk about the RMFT. Let's do that. Dave Kanger ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Miller sketches? Date: 27 Aug 2000 05:13:54 GMT Does anyone know of any publications of Millers sketches? I see them in articles and read of them being used for reference but am not aware of a collection in print...any help? Scott McMahon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control to Rocky Mountain College Winter Camp Date: 26 Aug 2000 23:24:12 -0600 We joined this one to talk about the RMFT. Let's do that. Dave Kanger Hello Dave and around the camp fire, I could use the wisdom of the fox and more. I have the opportunity to expand beyond the Quiet Camp held for the last 3 years near the mouth of the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone River. The location of some of the venerable history of the RMFT. The winter camp of Jim Bridger 1836-1837. The documentation for this camp is contained in Russell's Journal of a Trapper. This is also where Captain Clark and his party stopped on July 24, 1806 to dry out the contents of the 2 dugout canoes that has shipped water coming down the Yellowstone from near present Park City, Montana. It seems to me that this is a good opportunity to recreate the original Rocky Mountain College by establishing living history camp skills on the actual location that pertain to the times and I have been heading things in that direction for some time now. Looks like things could work out. I would like to have some feed back/feed forward....on line....off line. Questions or suggestions. Also any headed to Fort Union. No problem just head around the fires. An area larger that the State of Maine has burned to the west. Walt Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet Date: 27 Aug 2000 01:26:18 EDT Scott: I suggest you start here, then look for associated print collections. <A HREF="http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/miller_alfred_jacob.html">Click here: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet</A> Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Miller sketches? Date: 26 Aug 2000 23:32:06 -0600 Does anyone know of any publications of Millers sketches? I see them in articles and read of them being used for reference but am not aware of a collection in print...any help? Scott McMahon Crazy Crow has the 1837 Sketch Book of the Western Fur Trade by Rex Allen Norman.. 29 pages: 90 sketches. Walt. ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R Brubaker" <rbrubake@wyoming.com> Subject: MtMan-List: RE: hist_text-digest V1 #612 Date: 27 Aug 2000 00:06:05 -0600 Carolyn, Would love to help, how about some info first? What part of the froniter does the book set him in? Any particiliar time or events to date him by? Have you given him any special lineage? Does he have to have a "nick name" or do you want a real name with a nick name some friends call him? mike. ******The book takes place in the Rocky Mt. 10 to 20 years after the mountain man days. This guy is a living anachronism, kind of like the old hippies who are still out and about. He is the son of a mountain man and either a Sioux or an Arapaho (and yes I DO know how big a difference the tribe makes- I live on a reservation) He is still in the mountains because he doesn't fit into civilization. He probably isn't into fur trade per sec but I'm not really sure what he does do for a living. I do know that he sometimes scouts for the army and may have spent some time as a buffalo hunter though neither profession appealed to him much. The story is set around the end of the Civil War (1865-1868 somewhere) and may even involve the groundwork for the Indian wars of the 1870's. I like to tie my books fairly closely to historical happenings. A real name with a catchy nick name would be great. Editors love them, believe it or not. I actually got away with a hero named Ox Bruford because his real name was James Oxford Bruton Treenery III! On the other hand, a real sounding name might be fine by itself. Carolyn Lampman ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 27 Aug 2000 01:17:38 -0500 Are you Mr Ayoob or are you quoting him.......and, if so, who are you? Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 9:06 PM > For anyone who has issues with this, read my signature >=20 > "I resent 'experts' who have never faced deadly threat, > yet who tell me - and you - that we should not consider > a response of equal power against those who would > threaten our lives." > -- Massad Ayoob >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> Subject: MtMan-List: alfred jacob miller and catlin Date: 27 Aug 2000 02:37:59 -0400 here is some miller prints. http://pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~thomast/art/miller.html here are some catlin prints www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/psearch?Request=A&person=4950 John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miller sketches? Date: 27 Aug 2000 08:13:19 -0700 First I would tell you to go to a place like Amazon.com or Barns and Noble. com and run a book or subject check. One of the books I have is called Alfred Jacob Miller Watercolors of the American West from the collection of Gilcrease Museum Tulsa, Okla. Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control Date: 27 Aug 2000 10:15:57 -0400 Excuse me Mr. Kanger, I'm the one who sent the message here and I did it to inform, NOT to instigate. I am far from a spammer and I resent being called one. I received this from a concerned Rendezvous brother and I DID go to the Senate Web Site and check it out and I saw NOTHING there that said it was dead in committee. If I've made a Faux Pas in this case them I apologize to the list but I, as most of the folks who have commented here, believe that this is a way of the Government taking away our freedoms and, as such, should be addressed. Perhaps it is your intention, Sir, to change our views by calling this matter "Spam" and "Crap". Divide and Conquer sounds more like what you are trying to do than what I did. YMOS James "Manbear" Lockmiller > In case anyone bothered to check on the validity of the original spam message > which started this whole thread, that particular bill is dead in commitee and > not expected to ever get out for the vote. Those who forward these "Alerts" > all over the internet are nothing more than instigators. You have all taken > the bait. Take the time to verify some of this crap which gets distributed, > because most of the time, that's all it is..........CRAP. Divide and > Conquer.......yep, they seem to have accomplished that, didn't they? > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: hist_text-digest V1 #612 Date: 27 Aug 2000 08:24:15 -0600 Carolyn, A man could make a living hunting for meat to feed wagon trains and trading post's. there was such a group that hung around Jim Bridger's trading post during the 1847 period. His father could have been a traper who left after 1842 when the hay day of the Rendezvous period ended, Having a famous father who had been a mountain man would be a problem. YMOS OLe #718 ---------- >From: "R Brubaker" <rbrubake@wyoming.com> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: RE: hist_text-digest V1 #612 >Date: Sun, Aug 27, 2000, 12:06 AM > > > >Carolyn, > Would love to help, how about some info first? What part of the >froniter does the book set him in? Any particiliar time or events to >date him by? Have you given him any special lineage? Does he >have to have a "nick name" or do you want a real name with a >nick name some friends call him? > mike. > >******The book takes place in the Rocky Mt. 10 to 20 years after the >mountain man days. This guy is a living anachronism, kind of like the old >hippies who are still out and about. He is the son of a mountain man and >either a Sioux or an Arapaho (and yes I DO know how big a difference the >tribe makes- I live on a reservation) He is still in the mountains because >he doesn't fit into civilization. He probably isn't into fur trade per sec >but I'm not really sure what he does do for a living. I do know that he >sometimes scouts for the army and may have spent some time as a buffalo >hunter though neither profession appealed to him much. The story is set >around the end of the Civil War (1865-1868 somewhere) and may even involve >the groundwork for the Indian wars of the 1870's. I like to tie my books >fairly closely to historical happenings. > A real name with a catchy nick name would be great. Editors love them, >believe it or not. I actually got away with a hero named Ox Bruford because >his real name was James Oxford Bruton Treenery III! On the other hand, a >real sounding name might be fine by itself. > >Carolyn Lampman > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: names Date: 27 Aug 2000 10:53:55 -0600 Carolyn, This summer I completed a rescearch project on who was in the west during the fur trade and it had some surprisingly unqiue names in it. Here are some (yes, these were real people) which might give you some ideas or maybe you might even choose one of these. Alponso Wetmore Allen Tibbletts Jim Swanock Jim Rogers (a half breed) Joseph Pourier Titian Ramsey Peale Patrick Mundy Henry Mercure madison Gilmore Some many great names! Most are common names which don't reflex the character of these men. Maybe the name you choose might go with a action of the character, like- Benjamin Potters. Hope this might give you some ideas. mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: gun bill Date: 27 Aug 2000 11:39:02 -0500 SFH wrote, <The U. S. Supreme Court has always supported legitimate regulations on gun ownership and purchase-- but has not taken guns away> SFH, that statement purely misleading. The Supreme Court has made very few rulings re: 2nd Amendment and most of those were many years ago. The more recent ones came down on the side of the 2nd Amendment. A broad-based definitive ruling has never been sought and consequently the question remains open as to what the SC would do. That is one reason why the next election is so important. The next president will likely have an opportunity to make 4 to 5 appointments. Gore would seek only judges who lean heavily to the left and, in our case, be anti 2nd Amendment. Bush is a supporter of the 2nd Amendment. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: bear claws Date: 27 Aug 2000 11:42:00 -0500 Ken All I can tell you is that I have worn a bear claw constantly for thirty years and own a number of other necklaces with claws on them. The laws are confusing and different from state to state. I have never been able to get definitive info on the question of legality. There is a strong presumption that black bear claws are OK but Griz are illegal. I just dunno. The Federal sites are not really helpful. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Many Trades Date: 27 Aug 2000 10:51:43 -0600 Congratulations to Bill Cunningham, I see Crazy Crow has a NEW listing of RENDEZVOUS, BACK TO A SIMPLER TIME. On page 88 of the most recent catalogue. Thanks for the great work. Walt RMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear claws Date: 27 Aug 2000 14:16:13 EDT In a message dated 8/27/00 9:43:27 AM, frankf@centurytel.net writes: << There is a strong presumption that black bear claws are OK but Griz are illegal. I just dunno. The Federal sites are not really helpful. Frank G. Fusco >> Here's a jpg of a brown bear/griz claw necklace I've worn for years, and have never had anyone tell me it was illegal. Actually got the hide with claws from Fish and Game while I was in Alaska..... but don't ask how i did it....<G> http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/bcnecklace.jpg There are also some real nice fake claws on the market... I got this one in Billings. It is about 4 1/2 inches around the curve and I think they sell for around $15... http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/fakebc.jpg Ymos Magpie PS: Can anyone tell I've got a new digital camera?........Grin. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear claws Date: 27 Aug 2000 14:36:36 -0700 According to the Fish and Game, it is not illegal to own the bear claws. It is illegal to sell or barter the claws. I have have a few claws and some run ins with some of these fine gentlemen. Have papers of proof of purchase in the state where legal and notes from friends who have given me bear hides. Was at a few busts in the past at some major rendezvous where they arrested those who sold, but not those who whore the items. Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear claws Date: 27 Aug 2000 14:45:48 -0700 Sorry guys, did not mean to say any one has ever "whored" on this sight. So much for spell checker and the way I write when in a hurry. Need a new proof reader. In others words, they didn't arrest those who "wore" the claws. Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Bear Claws Date: 27 Aug 2000 14:04:08 -0500 Nice recovery there Linda. Harddog ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Guns/rights Date: 27 Aug 2000 15:17:27 EDT Please do not slip back into your hole. All of us that spout off and then slip back (myself included) need to spout off, stand up and be heard by the nation. Tell your senators and congressmen that we will not stand for this erosion of our liberty then lets not back away but truely"not stand for it" Be heard, over and over, If we all unite for our rights we may just succeed. If we don't we will surely fail. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NEGGIES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control Date: 27 Aug 2000 18:35:12 EDT As someone new to this, I agree. I am looking for someone who may know the whereabouts of the papers of a writer named Fredrick Voelker. He contributed to one of Hafen's books and did personal interviews with Laramies in St. Louis in the late 50's. It is specifically the latter I am interested in. He had some clues about the origin of Jacques La Ramie. Anyone with that info or any info on Jacques, or J. or Baptist La Ramie, I'd be much oblidged. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control Date: 27 Aug 2000 17:20:00 -0700 sorry listmates, about getting off the topic. I just get riled when i read such a bone head post "thems fightin words" it won't happen again thanks tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 8:46 PM > Maybe someone should start a "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" e-mail group. > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > Poison River Party > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken Jones" <kenandsusan@triton.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear claws Date: 27 Aug 2000 20:25:50 -0400 Thank you all for your help. I already have real claws from a Michigan Black Bear. I've seen necklaces with a silver (or some other metal - maybe copper) "cap" at the end where the claw is fastened to the necklace. This style isn't primitive I don't reckon but it looks good for everyday wear. I do have plans for a necklace similar to the one shown on the other post and wouldn't mind trying to make one. I was really looking for the "caps" for the claws. I didn't want to drill a hole through it as I have had them chip after a while. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 12:42 PM Ken All I can tell you is that I have worn a bear claw constantly for thirty years and own a number of other necklaces with claws on them. The laws are confusing and different from state to state. I have never been able to get definitive info on the question of legality. There is a strong presumption that black bear claws are OK but Griz are illegal. I just dunno. The Federal sites are not really helpful. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear claws Date: 27 Aug 2000 17:52:47 -0700 Ken, A friend of mine showed me how to "cap" claws, etc.... If you are jewler?...here is how it is done. First know that different silver solders have a different melting point. Start with the highest melting point solder you have. Make first solder, then work down in the melting point range, so as not to " unglue" each preceding piece. Get it? Then a strip of silver is made to make a collar around what you are capping, wrap around circumfrence, cut and solder. Then cut a 'top' to the cap by tracing a shape around the base. Solder to the wrapped collar, from the inside. The silver solder will flow and fill gaps, etc.... sand and buff, and it will look like a solid piece, and fit as a perfect 'cap'. Glue cap to item, and ready to use. Hope this helps, hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Old Gun Date: 27 Aug 2000 21:20:25 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C0106C.9DAF5600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey gents need a little help on this gun a friend is thinking of buying. = If any of ya'll have any info I would sure like to hear it. If you need = pics I can email them to you. Okay, It is a Vogt Jaegerndorf, side by side what looks to be a 60 cal. rifle. = It was found in a barn back in WWII and has been hanging on a wall ever = since. The guy is being sold by the grandson of the vet who found it = and brought it home. What is unique about this gun is that the fancy part of the trigger = gaurd has been carved into the stock out of the wood. I am told that = the barrels are damascus but that seems strange as the barrels both have = rifling grooves in them. The stock has alot of inlay work on it and it has a metal butt plate = with a patch box attached. There is a sling mount attached to the stock = and into the bottom of the barrel. Thanks for any help. FVR ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C0106C.9DAF5600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hey gents need a little help on this = gun a friend=20 is thinking of buying. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If any of ya'll have any info I would = sure like to=20 hear it. If you need pics I can email them to you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Okay,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is a Vogt Jaegerndorf, side by side = what looks=20 to be a 60 cal. rifle. It was found in a barn back in WWII and has = been=20 hanging on a wall ever since. The guy is being sold by the = grandson of the=20 vet who found it and brought it home.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What is unique about this gun is that = the fancy=20 part of the trigger gaurd has been carved into the stock out of the = wood. =20 I am told that the barrels are damascus but that seems strange as the = barrels=20 both have rifling grooves in them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The stock has alot of inlay work on it = and it has a=20 metal butt plate with a patch box attached. There is a sling mount = attached to the stock and into the bottom of the barrel.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for any help.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FVR</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C0106C.9DAF5600-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Gun Date: 27 Aug 2000 22:01:46 EDT > It is a Vogt Jaegerndorf, side by side what looks to be a 60 cal. rifle. It > was found in a barn back in WWII and has been hanging on a wall ever since. > The guy is being sold by the grandson of the vet who found it and brought it > home. Frank, Most likely the gun is a German made double rifle, also known as a cape gun. Many of these guns also found their way to Africa as game rifles. German makers are pretty hard to track down, as not much has been compiled about them and the reference books cost more than the guns.. Many were made in Suhl, Germany. They have a website with a message board for posing questions about German made guns. Sorry, but I don't have the URL handy. Use Google.com and type in the key words Suhl and Gunmakers and you should come up with the URL. These guns were the antecedent design of the original Jaeger style rifle which led to the evolution of our own Kentucky style rifle. Jaeger means "hunter" and "Jaegermeister" means gamekeeper. Much of Germany was divided up into large estates, with the game belonging to the estate owner. The Jaegermeister was the manager of the game on the estate. There were boar, bear, and roe deer on the estates, all fairly large game with the two former ones often requiring backup shots. All these guns were highly stylized and very ornate. Value is often not as high as one might imagine, but there are pearls to be found. Signed guns are more valuable, as many German makers did not sign their work. Usually the later guns are signed. Value could run from $400 to Big Bucks. It would have to be professionally appraised for true value. I have two of them. One is an original flint double which was converted to percussion......$1350. If it was still in its original flint form, it would be worth high 4 figures or low 5 figures. It's still a neat gun, and in almost mint condition. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Gun Date: 27 Aug 2000 21:57:02 -0400 fvr-- send pictures to alpega@aol.com and i will see what i can tell you--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Date: 27 Aug 2000 22:09:50 EDT I have been working for last week on a Imax movie being made for National Geographic. What a joke it would have been nice if someone would have read the journals first be for making the movie. I don't know how well they researched the rest of the movie but they sure got the hole thing wrong on the scene Mike Powell and I worked on. We tried to help them put together the Shoshone village but they would have none of it. So it turned out to be a fat Sioux village instead of a poor Shoshone village. We did manage to get them to let us build one Willow hut in the middle of all the Teepees. Just the reverse of what it should have been. The Willow hut they lets build still is wrong it is not the type that Lewis& Clark describe. But that's what they wanted and it was better then having none in the scene at all. With all the meat they had hanging around the camp it is going to be hard to tell that they were on hard times with little food in camp. Then to top it all off they have Lewis and Clark paddling their dug outs right up to the camp? That's quit a feat beings how they would have had to paddle them over Lemhi Pass and the continental divide. I seen the costume they had for the Shosones to wear more Hollywood, BS. Next week we build a Nez Perces village can't wait to see what they come up with for that scene. We did talk them in to build a long house to go with the teepees. So it may be a little better but I dought it. From what I have seen I would give this movie a big thumbs down. You would think National Geographic would do better. See Ya On The Trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear claws Date: 27 Aug 2000 20:20:35 -0600 Ken, years ago I shot and killed an Alaskan Brown Bear while working up there for the better part of a year, I had the hide tanned with the claw's on. Last year I sold that hide to a collector at rendezvous,I gave him a bill of sale along with a discription of how and where I got it. Now for those of you that don't know, there is no diference between a Griz and an Alaskan Brown Bear. A lot of enviromentalist's will tell that the Grizley is endangered well it's not, they are like rabbits in Alaska. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Ken Jones" <kenandsusan@triton.net> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear claws >Date: Sun, Aug 27, 2000, 6:25 PM > >Thank you all for your help. I already have real claws from a Michigan >Black Bear. I've seen necklaces with a silver (or some other metal - maybe >copper) "cap" at the end where the claw is fastened to the necklace. This >style isn't primitive I don't reckon but it looks good for everyday wear. I >do have plans for a necklace similar to the one shown on the other post and >wouldn't mind trying to make one. I was really looking for the "caps" for >the claws. I didn't want to drill a hole through it as I have had them chip >after a while. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> >To: "AMM" <hist_text@xmission.com> >Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 12:42 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: bear claws > > >Ken > All I can tell you is that I have worn a bear claw constantly for thirty >years and own a number of other necklaces with claws on them. > The laws are confusing and different from state to state. I have never >been able to get definitive info on the question of legality. There is a >strong presumption that black bear claws are OK but Griz are illegal. I >just dunno. The Federal sites are not really helpful. >Frank G. Fusco >Mountain Home, Arkansas > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tea bricks Date: 27 Aug 2000 21:28:08 -0600 I do Paul, need 4 bricks some pot scrubbers silver tea infusers other things also seriously considering the horse hair fishing kit you have. you must of found a good source for gelding white horse hair Thanks joe let me know the costs Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: traprjon@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Guns/rights Off Topic Date: 28 Aug 2000 05:52:23 -0400 Ho the list, Sorry to repeat this subject, those not interested can hit the delete button. I would first urge everyone to go to the below web site for quotes from our Founding Fathers. While a lot of you have a good understanding of our second amendment rights, others seem confused or just plain not knowledgeable, or taught by a society with an agenda, to think differently than was ment by the Founding Fathers about our rights to bear arms. Some would argue that things are different today. While that is true, the one thing that is the same now, as then, is people. Those people who compose the Government have long forgotten who they work for and from whom they derive their authority. Least anyone forget or not know exactly what the Founding Fathers intended, the below web sites quotes make the intent of the second amendment, and the Government's roll in things crystal clear. I found Abraham Lincoln's comments particularly enlightening. Once again, I apologize for continuing the subject, however, I find this subject to be of utmost importance to Mountain Men and ALL Americans. I personally am on a first name basis with my Senators and Congressmen. So should we all be. Keep your powder dry. http://www.dojgov.net/Liberty_Watch.htm Trap-R-John - YMHOS Don't compromise your Civil Rights, they are yours! Stand up for whats RIGHT!" -- Trap-R-John -- "The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance." -- General John Stark -- "Any people that would give up LIBERTY for a little Temporary Safety deserves neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin -- "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson -- On Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:17:27 EDT Squinty54@aol.com writes: > Please do not slip back into your hole. All of us that spout off and > then > slip back (myself included) need to spout off, stand up and be heard > by the > nation. Tell your senators and congressmen that we will not stand > for this > erosion of our liberty then lets not back away but truely"not stand > for it" > Be heard, over and over, If we all unite for our rights we may just > succeed. > If we don't we will surely fail. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tea bricks/MUSEUM of the FUR TRADE Date: 28 Aug 2000 04:58:32 -0700 On Sun, 27 August 2000, Joe Brandl wrote: > need 4 bricks > some pot scrubbers > silver tea infusers > other things also > > Thanks > joe ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Joe, contact Pablo off list, he has already had his butt reamed about using the list for business. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hey the camp, Everyone wants to talk FUR TRADE, but does everyone get the "MUSEUM of the FUR TRADE QUARTERLY, like the gun issues, very low percentage. The Summer 2000 issue will be of great interest to those that travel by water, this issue covers the Voyageur 1650-1715, but when you start reading it goes much later. Has some items of interest for those that are doing the french trapper, head covering, capotes, etc., some neat pictures - the cover is of an Indian village with all kinds of activity. CONTACT: Museum of the Fur Trade, 6321 Highway 20, Chadron, Nebraska, 69337 for your subscription at $10.00 per calendar year (US) and $13.00 for other countries. You'll enjoy every page as Jim Hanson follows in his father Charles' footsteps as editor of this Quarterly report. Following our ancestors, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Empire of the Bay Date: 28 Aug 2000 05:36:13 -0700 (PDT) PBS has a web page on the Empire of the Bay, includes a quiz on history and a transcript of the broadcast. http://www.pbs.org/empireofthebay/ The headquarters is still there but vacant. ===== defstones __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> Subject: MtMan-List: RE: What's in a name? Date: 28 Aug 2000 10:46:01 -0500 Carolyn, You don't want to use a real mtn man's name because it might give the pretense of being a biographical piece. You'll be scrutenized for accuracy and crucified if your info on the character is in error, or inconsistent with the real person who's name you used. Better to keep the name totally ficticious. Also, there's nothing wrong with *not* giving him a nick name. As we've discussed on this list, and as the historical record shows that most trappers didn't use nicknames, although many were known to use aliases. If you must give the character a nickname, make sure the story behind it (and there should be a story behind it) is historically feesible. (For all we know he could be one of the dozens of Hispanic or African-American trappers out there.) Please, whatever you do, don't name him "Griz." There are too many of those around already, and one more won't enhance the character in any measure. Through over use the name has become a very weak and meaningless cliche (no offense to any 'skinners out there named Griz. Y'all know what I mean). Make the name unique, but somewhat descriptive of a characteristic or a deed. The other questions are very important. Develop the character in terms of social standing, job, ethnic origin, past work, or use the age-old literary device of being vague about a character's past. These factors will figure into his identity as an individual and what his skills and aptitude as a mountaineer, and his job within a trapping party is likely to be. Have fun with it. If you're in his neighborhood, stop by to see my bud Rex Norman at Fort Laramie. Tell him I sent you. HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Date: 28 Aug 2000 11:04:06 -0700 GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > I have been working for last week on a Imax movie being made for National > Geographic. What a joke it would have been nice if someone would have read > the journals first be for making the movie. It would be sad indeed to see a National Geographic production fall so short of reality, when they have the opportunity and funds to be as factual as possible. Everything L&C write about that meeting indicate very lean times for that particular group of Shoshone. We did an event a couple of weeks ago at Dillon recreating the meeting of L&C with the Shoshonee near the actual site of the meeting. Pretty much a disaster from the get go. The wind flattened everything... canvas, willow wickups, spectators... there were no campfires due to the fire dangers, many of the RMM didn't show because they were defending home and hearth from flames... and finally, the Shoshonee who were supposed to help re-enact the whole thing showed up after the event was over, took over the narrators microphone and ranted for 45 minutes to the audience on how bad they have been treated by history. Sure put a sour taste in my mouth to do the same event next year. On a bright note, we did get to meet some super L&C scholars that had me running back to the journals to check my facts. Regards from the "New" Smoky Mountains Lee Newbill of North Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: enough comments on gun control Date: 28 Aug 2000 16:37:05 EDT In a message dated 8/26/00, 2badger@3rivers.net writes: << ----(stuff deleted)---- I fear there are too many others that share that same kind of complacency. ----(stuff deleted)---- >> Complacency. Of late I am of the opinion that thse are not "Complacent" attitudes but folks trying to maintain thier "Pro Gun" stance while remaining "Politically Correct" for fear of being labled "Evil". Just a thought. Longshot (Poilitically Incorrect and Proud) "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Illinois Rendezvous Notice Date: 28 Aug 2000 20:42:20 -0700 Hallo the Camp. I'm forwarding this to all as a public announcement. Email address contact is in the message. MILLS APPLE FARM RENDEZVOUS OCT,21,22,2000 1147 Pochontas Road ,Marine Illinois ,,,Take 70 east from St louis, Mo. to exit 21 , turn right toward Staunton ,IL. on RTE. 4 to 4 way stop turn right ,,then look for signs no camp fee no shoot a great family rendezvous alot thing for the youngin' to do Neal (SHORTHORSE) Volk e-mail wolfpac@norcom2000.com for more infro. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: MtMan-List: 1804 Boston newspaper with fur prices on Ebay Date: 29 Aug 2000 13:05:18 -0400 --------------32089351F4CA323A5B4ADECF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just came across this on Ebay and thought someone here might be interested. The auction ad says: 1804 FUR TRADE SUPER FULL FRONT PAGE "WHOLESALE" PRICING SCHEDULE WHICH INCLUDES FUR PRICING AND AVAILABILITY!! BEAR FURS-$1-$10 MINKS-10 CENTS TO 75 CENTS OTTER-$1-$5 RABBITS-3 CENTS TO 8 CENTS ETC. If you like to take a look here is the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=420332090 Enjoy --------------32089351F4CA323A5B4ADECF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> I just came across this on Ebay and thought someone here might be interested. The auction ad says: <p>1804 FUR TRADE <p> SUPER FULL FRONT PAGE "WHOLESALE" PRICING SCHEDULE WHICH INCLUDES <br> FUR PRICING AND AVAILABILITY!! <p> BEAR FURS-$1-$10 <p> MINKS-10 CENTS TO 75 CENTS <p> OTTER-$1-$5 <p> RABBITS-3 CENTS TO 8 CENTS <p> ETC. <p>If you like to take a look here is the link: <p> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=420332090">http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=420332090</a> <p>Enjoy</html> --------------32089351F4CA323A5B4ADECF-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" <stitchin@tekhullogy.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1804 Boston newspaper with fur prices on Ebay Date: 29 Aug 2000 16:14:04 -0500 the site you displayed will not link. What am I doing wrong? JMc ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1804 Boston newspaper with fur prices on Ebay Date: 29 Aug 2000 19:58:59 -0400 I'm not sure John. I just tried it from the my copy of that e-mail and it worked fine. You might try highlighting the URL and copying and pasting it. Manbear John McKee wrote: > the site you displayed will not link. What am I doing wrong? JMc > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet Date: 30 Aug 2000 08:18:55 -0600 --------------BF338D14A1F946E8F441F9CB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All right, I've waited long enough. I must reply to Laura's posting of Miller's collections. One of his paintings (Found at : http://pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~thomast/art/swing.html ), all you guys must see. I figure it it the only "girlie" picture authenic to the fur trade. Called "The Swing", a good color printer is needed for this. Anyway, hope you enjoy it! mike. Wind1838@aol.com wrote: > Scott: > > I suggest you start here, then look for associated print collections. > > <A HREF="http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/miller_alfred_jacob.html">Click > here: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet</A> > > Laura Glise > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --------------BF338D14A1F946E8F441F9CB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> All right, I've waited long enough. I must reply to Laura's posting of <br>Miller's collections. One of his paintings (Found at : <br><a href="http://panteon.cis.yale.edu/~thomast/art/swing.html">http://pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~thomast/art/swing.html</a> ), all you guys <br>must see. I figure it it the only "girlie" picture authenic to the fur trade. <br>Called "The Swing", a good color printer is needed for this. Anyway, <br>hope you enjoy it! <br> mike. <p>Wind1838@aol.com wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE> Scott: <p>I suggest you start here, then look for associated print collections. <p><A HREF="<a href="http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/miller_alfred_jacob.html">http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/miller_alfred_jacob.html</a>">Click <br>here: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet</A> <p>Laura Glise <p>---------------------- <br>hist_text list info: <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a></blockquote> </html> --------------BF338D14A1F946E8F441F9CB-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: land Date: 30 Aug 2000 08:06:57 -0600 Gentelmen, I have a weird idea, what if we purchased land in more than one location, or have it donated, or lease from the BLM or Forest service? YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: land Date: 30 Aug 2000 13:12:50 -0600 Ole #718, Why don't you consider using some of the historic ground like I spread the Clark Bottom Camp on? Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Ole B. Jensen Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 8:07 AM Gentelmen, I have a weird idea, what if we purchased land in more than one location, or have it donated, or lease from the BLM or Forest service? YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> Subject: MtMan-List: Television documentary (slightly OT) Date: 30 Aug 2000 17:24:18 -0500 Friends, (A thousand pardons if you already received this message) Yep, here we go again. I'm in another one. This one is on PBS and it's called "The Bicycle Corps: America's Black Army on Wheels." It deals with the Army experiment to mobilize the Army with bicycles in 1897. Don't laugh. Bikes were the cutting edge of transportation technology in the 1890s. Once again the Army chose Buffalo Soldiers to conduct the exercise. Soldiers from the black 25th Infantry, along with a junior officer, a newspaper reporter/photographer, and a bike mechanic rode bicycles loaded with their gear from their headquarters at Fort Missoula, Montana to St. Louis in 41 days (1,900 miles). The experiment was a success, but the Army never pursued the program further. The show was produced by Montana Public Television (KUFM-TV Missoula) and my parts, which were "talking head" segments, were shot at the Historical Museum at Fort Missoula in Missoula, MT (right near where the fires are now). It will air nationwide on Sept. 4 in most markets. In the Central time zone it airs at 8 PM, after Antiques Road Show. Check local listings for your airtimes. The program's producer, Gus Chambers won a Rocky Mountain Regional Emmy award for historical documentaries, and a Montana state award for Best Non-Commercial Television program of the year. I haven't seen it yet, so I can't say how I did. I guess we'll all find out together. :-) Cheers, HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet Date: 30 Aug 2000 20:25:02 EDT Mike. Well, I'm glad somebody on this list followed the trail and commented on Miller's magnificent art work. Don't you just wonder what was really going on that day. Old Alfred Jacob Miller, proper Baltimore artiste that he was, just may have just broken out into a sweat. Mr. Moore, you get the A+ in art history today. Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Television documentary (slightly OT) Date: 30 Aug 2000 21:53:10 EDT Henry.... sure hope they don't edit you out again! Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet Date: 30 Aug 2000 21:36:16 -0700 I haven't been following this topic very closely. Have any of you been able to find a source for Miller's original drawings ? I have been able to see some of them in museums and there are very interesting. There are things in the drawings that don't show up in his paintings which were done after he returned to civilization. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Mike. Well, I'm glad somebody on this list followed the trail and commented on Miller's magnificent art work. Don't you just wonder what was really going on that day. Old Alfred Jacob Miller, proper Baltimore artiste that he was, just may have just broken out into a sweat. Mr. Moore, you get the A+ in art history today. Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet Date: 30 Aug 2000 22:46:08 -0600 Larry, Another place to view some of his works are the Denver Art Musuem (in fact seen one today) and the Denver Public Library. Don't know if the ones I saw at the library were on loan from the museum or not, but it was possible since they are next to each other. Yes, they like alot of paintings seem to loose alot of details when reproduced. A shame. Oh yah, thanks Laura for such a high grade.. mike. larry pendleton wrote: > I haven't been following this topic very closely. Have any of you been able > to find a source for Miller's original drawings ? I have been able to see > some of them in museums and there are very interesting. There are things in > the drawings that don't show up in his paintings which were done after he > returned to civilization. > Pendleton > -----Original Message----- > From: Wind1838@aol.com <Wind1838@aol.com> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 5:26 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet > > Mike. Well, I'm glad somebody on this list followed the trail and commented > on Miller's magnificent art work. Don't you just wonder what was really > going on that day. Old Alfred Jacob Miller, proper Baltimore artiste that > he > was, just may have just broken out into a sweat. > > Mr. Moore, you get the A+ in art history today. > > Laura Glise > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R Brubaker" <rbrubake@wyoming.com> Subject: MtMan-List: RE: hist_text-digest V1 #615 Date: 30 Aug 2000 22:00:39 -0600 Now for those of you that don't know, there is no diference between a Griz and an Alaskan Brown Bear. A lot of enviromentalist's will tell that the Grizley is endangered well it's not, they are like rabbits in Alaska. *****They're doing right fine in this part of Wyoming too. In fact, there are so many in the WIndrivers and Absarokas that a game and fish employee told us they are about over populate to a major degree. I know it's getting kind of scary to go camping on horseback with a soft side tent. Hunting is getting a tad bit nervewracking too, especially with a bow or black powder. They just don't stop that easy. Of course it isn't all Griz, the Yellowstone wolves are around too. Oh, that's right I forgot, grizzlies don't eat meat and there has never been a documented attack of wolves on a human. (Yeah, right!) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Poorboy" <poorboy@ieway.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Date: 30 Aug 2000 21:41:47 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_016A_01C012CB.18F75FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Klahowya My Friends, It is my understanding that Miller's original pieces went to Scotland = with Stewart when he went home. And the works Miller sold here were = painted later from memory and sketches. Does anyone know the = whereabouts or conditions of the works that went to Scotland, and have = they ever been made available in print? IMHO these would be the first = hand resources to look at, not the stuff done later from memory. YMOS PoorBoy ------=_NextPart_000_016A_01C012CB.18F75FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Klahowya My Friends,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>It is my understanding that Miller's original pieces = went to=20 Scotland with Stewart when he went home. And the works Miller sold = here=20 were painted later from memory and sketches. Does anyone know the=20 whereabouts or conditions of the works that went to Scotland, and have = they ever=20 been made available in print? IMHO these would be the first hand = resources=20 to look at, not the stuff done later from memory.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>PoorBoy</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_016A_01C012CB.18F75FA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Date: 31 Aug 2000 01:19:10 EDT Ah, was Alfred Jacob Miller a "nancy" boy? I've been asked that question. I don't think so. He was a New England-type. Captain Stewart described him as a man with a general lack of martial spirit and very little mettle to him. Stewart owed it to the fact that Miller was not properly brought up. Captain Stewart found Miller in New Orleans. Miller was originally from Baltimore, and had studied in Europe. He was fairly well appreciated as a portrait painter, and was tagged as the "American Raphael in Paris." Probably too huge a compliment, but, ah, well. Miller was a bit of a "dandy." He didn't take to the rough, wild wilderness that was Stewart's passion, and he didn't like criticism. He retired early, and often hired others to do those duties which he despised, such as rounding up the horses. But, he was a hired hand as Stewart's artist and he did his job (and we now celebrate the painter's vision that let's us gaze back on those wild, nomadic times.) Stewart took Miller to Scotland to Murthly Castle to "paint the paintings" that were a result of Miller's lively and spontaneous sketches/watercolors. Much caution has been advised by scholars of what Miller painted on-the-scene (1837) and what he recreated in his studio in later years (for years and years). Miller happened on a formula of sorts, capturing the "west" in it's most romantic period, but he embellished upon what was history and what was romance. Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" <atthesea@gte.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Leather Leggings Date: 31 Aug 2000 09:31:05 -0700 Hello the List: Does anyone have a pattern, or directions on how to make some leather leggings? What weight leather is best? Mainly interested in just the look, don't need something that will have to last through endless trecking as am unable to do that. thanks. Regards from rainy and cool Coos Bay, Oregon Ghostrider ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" <ikon@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leather Leggings Date: 31 Aug 2000 12:52:01 -0400 If you can not find any info, email me at ikon@mindspring.com. I have several sets of directions that I pulled from 60's muzzle blasts. I made mine without stitching and they work great. FVR ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 12:31 PM > Hello the List: > Does anyone have a pattern, or directions on how to make some leather > leggings? What weight leather is best? Mainly interested in just the look, > don't need something that will have to last through endless trecking as am > unable to do that. > thanks. > Regards from rainy and cool Coos Bay, Oregon > Ghostrider > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Ann Nored Hartmann <banored@swbell.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leather Leggings Date: 31 Aug 2000 12:03:13 +0000 Ghostrider: Crazy Crow has patterns and kits. atthesea wrote: > Hello the List: > Does anyone have a pattern, or directions on how to make some leather > leggings? What weight leather is best? Mainly interested in just the look, > don't need something that will have to last through endless trecking as am > unable to do that. > thanks. > Regards from rainy and cool Coos Bay, Oregon > Ghostrider > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Gun bill in congress!!] Date: 31 Aug 2000 18:34:14 -0700 >From the NRA-ILA web site. HANDGUN TAX? As reported in a previous FAX Alert (Vol. 7, No. 12), there has been some concern among members of the pro-gun community over S. 2099, a bill introduced by anti-gun U.S. Senator Jack Reed (D-R.I.). The bill seeks to amend the National Firearms Act (NFA) to treat handguns like fully automatic firearms, requiring them to be registered, and adding a $50.00 tax to any handgun transfer. While NRA opposes this legislation, there is no real threat of it passing at this time. Please continue to focus your energy on pending legislation in the U.S. House, and especially, in the U.S. Senate, that poses immediate threats to our freedoms. And remember, while Congress is on recess, continue to attend your lawmakers' town hall meeting to voice your opposition to these "gun control" schemes ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 7:32 AM > Hello List, > I just received this from a friend and thought it might be worth looking > into. I've attached a copy of th ebill below so that you don't have to go > looking for it. I'm not sure if this has been discussed here before or not > please forgive the redundency. > > YMOS > Manbear > > > > Check this bill out and contact your senators to kill this bill. It's > > another gun grab. > > > > If you enjoy the rights you have, protect them now! > > Subject: Gun Bill > > > > Subject: [Addicted2Reloading] SB 2099 - register your guns via the IRS 1040 > > > > Senate Bill SB-2099 will require us to put on our 2000 1040 federal tax > > form all Handguns that you have or own. It may require fingerprints and a > > tax This bill was introduced on Feb. 24. This bill will > > become public knowledge 30 days after it is voted into law. This is an > > amendment to the Internal Revenue Act of 1986. This means that the Finance > > Committee can pass this without the Senate voting on it at all. > > > > The full text of the proposed amendment is on the U.S. Senate > > http://www.senate.gov/ You can find the bill by doing a search by the bill > > number. (SB-2099) > > > > Please send a copy of this e-mail to every gun owner you know to help STOP > > this bill!! > > > > Handgun Safety and Registration Act of 2000 (Introduced in the Senate) > > S 2099 IS > > 106th CONGRESS > > 2d Session > > S. 2099 > > To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to require the registration of > handguns, and for other purposes. > > IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED > STATES > > February 24, 2000 > > Mr. REED introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to > the Committee on Finance > > > > A BILL > > To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to require the registration of > handguns, and for other purposes. > > Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United > States of America in Congress assembled, > > SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. > > This Act may be cited as the `Handgun Safety and Registration Act of > 2000'. > > SEC. 2. REGISTRATION OF HANDGUNS. > > (a) HANDGUN INCLUDED IN DEFINITION OF FIREARM- > > (1) IN GENERAL- Section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of > 1986 (defining firearm) is amended by striking `and (8) a destructive device' > and inserting `(8) > a handgun; and (9) a destructive device'. > > (2) DEFINITION OF HANDGUN- Section 5845 of the Internal Revenue > Code of 1986 (relating to definitions) is amended by adding at the end the > following: > > `(n) HANDGUN- > > `(1) IN GENERAL- The term `handgun' means any weapon (including a > starter gun) which-- > > `(A) is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a > projectile by the action of an explosive, and > > `(B) has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired > by the use of a single hand. > > `(2) DISASSEMBLED PARTS INCLUDED- Such term shall also include > the frame or receiver of any such weapon, and any combination of parts from > which a > handgun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or > under the control of a person. > > `(3) EXCLUSION- Such term shall not include a firearm classified > as `any other weapon' under subsection (e).'. > > (b) TRANSFER TAX IMPOSED ON HANDGUNS- Section 5811(a) of the Internal > Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to rate) is amended by inserting `or as a > handgun under > section 5845(a)(8)' after `section 5845(e)'. > > (c) TAX ON MAKING FIREARMS IMPOSED ON HANDGUNS- Section 5821(a) of the > Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to rate) is amended by inserting `, > except, the tax on any firearm classified as a handgun under section > 5845(a)(8) shall be at the rate of $50 for each such firearm made' after > `firearm made'. > > (d) IMPORTATION POLICY CONTINUED- > > (1) IN GENERAL- Section 5844 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 > (relating to importation) is amended by adding at the end the following: `This > section shall > not apply to any firearm classified as a handgun under section > 5845(a)(8).'. > > (2) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 925(d)(3) of title 18, United > States Code, is amended by inserting `(without regard to paragraph (8) > thereof)' after > `section 5845(a)'. > > (e) SHARING OF REGISTRATION INFORMATION WITH STATE AND LOCAL LAW > ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES- > > (1) IN GENERAL- Section 6103(o) of the Internal Revenue Code of > 1986 (relating to disclosure of returns and return information with respect to > certain taxes) is > amended by adding at the end the following: > > `(3) TAXES IMPOSED ON TRANSFER OF HANDGUNS- Returns and return > information with respect to taxes imposed by part II of subchapter A of chapter > 53 > (relating to tax on transferring firearms) on any firearm > classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) shall be available in an > on-line format for inspection by or > disclosure to officers and employees of-- > > `(A) any Federal law enforcement agency, and > > `(B) any State or local law enforcement agency, > > whose official duties require such inspection or disclosure.'. > > (2) CONFORMING AMENDMENTS- Section 6103(p)(4) of the Internal > Revenue Code of 1986 is amended-- > > (A) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A)-- > > (i) by striking `or (o)(1)' and inserting `(o)(1), > or (o)(3)(A)', > > (ii) by striking `or (l)(6)' and inserting `(l)(6)', > > (iii) by inserting `or (o)(3)(B),' after `(16),', > and > > (B) in subparagraph (F)(i)-- > > (i) by striking `or (l)(6)' and inserting `(l)(6)', > and > > (ii) by inserting `or (o)(3)(B),' after `(16),', and > > (C) in subparagraph (F)(ii), by striking `or (o)(1)' and > inserting `, (o)(1), or (o)(3)(A)'. > > (f) TRANSITION RULE FOR NONREGISTERED HANDGUNS- > > (1) IN GENERAL- Any person possessing any firearm classified as a > handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 not > registered in the > National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record maintained by > the Secretary of the Treasury under section 5841 of such Code shall register > such handgun-- > > (A) within 1 year of the date of the enactment of this Act, > or > > (B) upon the transfer of such handgun before such 1 year > anniversary date. > > (2) TREATMENT OF REGISTRATION AS TRANSFER- For purposes of any > tax imposed by part II of subchapter A of chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue > Code > of 1986 (relating to tax on transferring firearms) on any firearm > classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of such Code, any registration > of such handgun > under paragraph (1)(A) shall be considered a transfer of such > handgun. > > (3) NONAPPLICATION OF PENALTY- Section 5861(d) of the Internal > Revenue Code of 1986 shall not apply with respect to the possession of any > handgun > before the date of the registration of such handgun under > paragraph (1). > > (g) PROVISION OF REGISTRATION FORMS- > > (1) AVAILABILITY- To promote and assist compliance with the > handgun registration requirements under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as > amended by this > section, the Secretary of the Treasury shall make available such > registration and fingerprint forms as may be required by the public for > compliance with such > requirements-- > > (A) to State and local law enforcement agencies and > facilities of the Department of the Treasury throughout the States, the United > States Postal Service, and > such other agencies and departments of the Federal > Government as the Secretary determines would aid in making such forms available > to the public; and > > (B) through the Internet in a downloadable format. > > (2) SINGLE FORM- The Secretary of the Treasury shall make > available registration forms that allow an individual to register the > possession or transfer of more than > 1 firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of the > Internal Revenue Code of 1986 on a single form. > > (h) PROGRAM OF PUBLIC AWARENESS- Within 60 days after the date of the > enactment of this Act, the Secretary of the Treasury shall commence a program > to broaden > public awareness of the handgun registration requirements under the > Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended by this section. Such program may > include voluntary > cooperative efforts with Federal, State, and local law enforcement > agencies and public service announcements as deemed appropriate by the > Secretary. > > (i) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There are authorized to be > appropriated such sums as may be necessary for the Secretary of the Treasury to > carry out the > provisions of and amendments made by this Act. > > (j) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this section shall take > effect on the date of the enactment of this Act. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Congrats Buck Date: 31 Aug 2000 21:39:06 -0400 (EDT) On your new job and also that you'll be researching along with your longtime buddy from the days of youth. good to hear you two are on the same team. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: MtMan-List: web site additions Date: 31 Aug 2000 23:12:32 -0600 <html> Howdy,<br> <br> There have been several recent additions to the <i>Mountain Men and the Fur Trade</i> website that y'all may find of interest (<a href="http://www.mtmen.org/" eudora="autourl">http</a>://www.mtmen.<a href="http://www.mtmen.org/" eudora="autourl">org</a>).<br> <br> A database of <i>Names of the Fur Trade, </i>contributed by Mike Moore, lists hundreds of names of individuals connected with the Rocky Mt Fur Trade in the first half of the 19th century, along with references. This database may be found at:<br> <a href="http://www.xmission.com/%7Edrudy/mtman/html/names/names.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/names/names.html</a><br> <br> also<br> <br> the Astoria Inventories, a detailed list of goods present at the various Astorian posts in 1813. Quite a while ago, Jim Hardee sent me xeroxes of these lists, and it has taken me an embarrassingly long time to get them on-line. The problem was that the copies weren't clear enough to scan in, and I kept planning to type them in by hand -- but I've come to the realization that I wasn't going to get that done anytime soon, so for now they're posted in bitmap (jpeg) format. I think you'll find everything is legible, and bitmap, though less desirable than OCR'ed text, is better than nothing. Anyway, they may be found at:<br> <a href="http://www.xmission.com/%7Edrudy/mtman/manu/astoria/index.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/manu/astoria/index.html</a><br> <br> Many thanks to Mike and Jim for these contributions. Hope you find them useful!<br> Dean Rudy</html> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html