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Internet Message Format | 2000-06-30 | 391KB

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 01 Jun 2000 07:38:42 -0600

Cracy,
We know by the drawing's made by Catlin and Miller that Cauldrons were used.
But remember St Louis was not the only source of supply, American fur at
fort union was supplied by steam boat. Astoria was supplied by ship and it
would depend on how close you lived around one of those forts and who you
were alligned with. I agree that it makes no sence and you could haul a lot
more tin,steel but like that bead's cost money and quils are free.
Back in 1983 I worked in the Alaska for 6 months, I was at a place called
Port Heiden. The natives that live there are a mix of Aliute and Norwigan
fishermen (Half Breeds) they are verry insecure as they are neither white
nor Indian. One of the young men had made a lot of money fishing for Salmon
and purchased a new Ford 3/4 ton 4-wheel drive truck, the truck cost about
26000.00 to buy and 6000.00 to have flown out to the village. Now here is
the catch, Port Heiden has 3 miles of road, no mountains and serounded by
wetlands. Funny thing there were about 4 of these new truck's in the
village. All dressed up but no place to go.
I don't know why, but vanity will make people do strange things.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>Date: Wed, May 31, 2000, 10:00 PM
>

>Sorry about that, it got plum away before I even got started. Ole my Friend
>you talked of a trader so lets look at it from a traders point of view.
>Besides buying the goods in St. Louis the biggest expanse he had was getting
>his goods to the Mountains. Weight meant money why would you take a few cast
>iron pots when for the same amount of weight you could take a hole lot of
>lighter weight pots and have more trade goods to sale. There for making more
>off your trade goods. The Indian women had to do all the packing and what
>advantage did the cast Iron pot offer her for type of cooking she did? I
>don't think a trader could take fast enough to talk her in to one my self.
>                                        Crazy Cyot
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 01 Jun 2000 07:37:15 -0700

On 31 May 00, at 21:04, Ole B. Jensen wrote:
> Packing a cannon, lead powder keg's, kegs of grain alcohol, glass bead's is
> far from light.

> long time ago, I would not bring a "Dutch Oven on a primitive horse trip
> today". Now think of this, if there is evidence of cast Iron pots at Bent's
> fort, Fort Union, Astoria, and there were but a handfull of white women, Who

I think we may be confusing trade goods with gear carried by
trappers. I guess if you are re-enacting, it all depends on your
persona. A trader would likely be carrying anything, including the
kitchen sink. Someone living in a fort or a lodge in a village would
be justified in packing almost as much stuff. A trapper would lose
potential profit for each pack animal not carrying either
consumables or pelts.

I would not be surprised if a lone trapper's personal goods simply
rode on the same horse he was on. A company of trappers would
be able to split the load for more comfort ( i.e., those two carry half
the cook gear each, and the rest of us lug pieces of the tents,
ect....), but that is also dependent your persona.

Kristopher K. Barrett

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 01 Jun 2000 10:33:22 -0500

Washtahay-
At 06:38 AM 5/31/00 -0600, you wrote:
>It seems to me that if I were back in those day's I would trade for plews
>more than trap for them, having the local indians do the work wrather then
>having to wade into a frozen stream myself.
    The reality of the situation was that the natives were aware of the trade
opportunities, and frequently found that raiding--for goods or for items
sought in trade-- was more productive than trapping.  A few references to
be considered on this subject are "The Cheyenne in Plains Indian Trade
Relations 1795-1840" by Joseph Jablow (get the Bison Press edition instead
of the original, its about $8 vs around $50), "Counting coup and Cutting
Horses--Intertribal Warfare on the Northern Great Plains 1738-1889" by
Anthony McGinnis, and "Changing Military Patterns of the Great Plains
Indians" by Frank Raymond Secoy.   I can get ISBN numbers if anyone wants.

>As most of the traders know, it
>is hard to antisipate what will sell so you bring a lot of diferent items.
    But the lists of trade goods taken to the mountains, the forts, and the
trading posts tell us what was sought by the buyers.  For a later
discussion of this topic you might look at "Metal weapons, tools, and
ornaments of the Teton Dakota Indians" by James Austin Hanson.
    I'm curious, and am hoping someone will have some knowledge on this: what
was the US military using in the west during the period in question?  I've
seen sheet iron pots with US markings that date from the 1860s, but don't
know what was in use earlier.  Accounts of the Revolutionary War discuss
the "heavy" pots and seem to indicate cast iron, but I have no idea what
was used in between.  So far, I haven't found records of the governement
purchasing cast iron for the military but I think it likely that I haven't
yet found the right foundry records.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
Date: 01 Jun 2000 12:15:38 EDT

Ok, here is something.

I have read numerous references to beaver tail being a "delicacy" or a
"dainty" or some such.  Until I know from first hand experience I will re=
main
skeptical about how tasty beaver tail is.  Seems like a beaver filet or a=

drumstick would be a more likely meal.  I would appreciate some first han=
d
info.

Lanney Ratcliff

Lanney,

=46rom Buck's page "Meat's Meat" article at:
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/edibles.htm#meat

A few folks we have read about had some comments about beaver.
Osborn Russell reported that "beaver feeding on wild parsnips were poison=
ous
and those that ate of the meat, within a few hours became sick at the sto=
mach
and the whole system became cramped..."

Rev. Samuel Parker said "that while flesh of the beaver was usable, the f=
ore
part is of a land animal while the hind part is of the taste of fish like=
=2E.."
I'm sure there's more than these two that made mention of the animal when=

prepared for the dinner table.

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
Date: 01 Jun 2000 12:33:44 -0400

Beaver liver is GREAT!!!
D

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:15 PM




----------------------
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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 01 Jun 2000 15:19:33 -0600

Kristopher,
Most trappers traveled in a group however there were some that traveled
alone due to circumstance.
Having only one horse would make traping un proffitable, how do you get your
hides out? walk and lead the horse with the plews on it's back?. They had a
lot of pack animals with them because they had to. Trapers both traded and
traped unless they were company hands
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>Date: Thu, Jun 1, 2000, 8:37 AM
>

>On 31 May 00, at 21:04, Ole B. Jensen wrote:
>> Packing a cannon, lead powder keg's, kegs of grain alcohol, glass bead's is
>> far from light.
>
>> long time ago, I would not bring a "Dutch Oven on a primitive horse trip
>> today". Now think of this, if there is evidence of cast Iron pots at Bent's
>> fort, Fort Union, Astoria, and there were but a handfull of white women, Who
>
>I think we may be confusing trade goods with gear carried by
>trappers. I guess if you are re-enacting, it all depends on your
>persona. A trader would likely be carrying anything, including the
>kitchen sink. Someone living in a fort or a lodge in a village would
>be justified in packing almost as much stuff. A trapper would lose
>potential profit for each pack animal not carrying either
>consumables or pelts.
>
>I would not be surprised if a lone trapper's personal goods simply
>rode on the same horse he was on. A company of trappers would
>be able to split the load for more comfort ( i.e., those two carry half
>the cook gear each, and the rest of us lug pieces of the tents,
>ect....), but that is also dependent your persona.
>
>Kristopher K. Barrett
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 01 Jun 2000 15:28:07 -0600

LongWalk,
You have said nothing that I could disagree with.
I have wondered why there is no mention of cast iron cooking equipment in
the journals or list of goods shiped when I see drawings of Miller that show
them. And why there are parts of cast iron pots at Bents Fort, Astoria and
Fort Union?. I would guess that the record is incomplete and that we are
looking at the ice burg senario.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>Date: Thu, Jun 1, 2000, 9:33 AM
>

>Washtahay-
>At 06:38 AM 5/31/00 -0600, you wrote:
>>It seems to me that if I were back in those day's I would trade for plews
>>more than trap for them, having the local indians do the work wrather then
>>having to wade into a frozen stream myself.
> The reality of the situation was that the natives were aware of the trade
>opportunities, and frequently found that raiding--for goods or for items
>sought in trade-- was more productive than trapping.  A few references to
>be considered on this subject are "The Cheyenne in Plains Indian Trade
>Relations 1795-1840" by Joseph Jablow (get the Bison Press edition instead
>of the original, its about $8 vs around $50), "Counting coup and Cutting
>Horses--Intertribal Warfare on the Northern Great Plains 1738-1889" by
>Anthony McGinnis, and "Changing Military Patterns of the Great Plains
>Indians" by Frank Raymond Secoy.   I can get ISBN numbers if anyone wants.
>
>>As most of the traders know, it
>>is hard to antisipate what will sell so you bring a lot of diferent items.
> But the lists of trade goods taken to the mountains, the forts, and the
>trading posts tell us what was sought by the buyers.  For a later
>discussion of this topic you might look at "Metal weapons, tools, and
>ornaments of the Teton Dakota Indians" by James Austin Hanson.
> I'm curious, and am hoping someone will have some knowledge on this: what
>was the US military using in the west during the period in question?  I've
>seen sheet iron pots with US markings that date from the 1860s, but don't
>know what was in use earlier.  Accounts of the Revolutionary War discuss
>the "heavy" pots and seem to indicate cast iron, but I have no idea what
>was used in between.  So far, I haven't found records of the governement
>purchasing cast iron for the military but I think it likely that I haven't
>yet found the right foundry records.
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 01 Jun 2000 17:37:04 -0400

> I have wondered why there is no mention of cast iron cooking equipment in
> the journals or list of goods shiped when I see drawings of Miller that
show
> them.

Maybe they called them something other than "Cast Iron"?  Just plain metal
pots, or Iron pots, etc... ??

Ad Miller


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 01 Jun 2000 15:04:20 -0700

On 1 Jun 00, at 15:19, Ole B. Jensen wrote:
> Most trappers traveled in a group however there were some that traveled
> alone due to circumstance.
> Having only one horse would make traping un proffitable, how do you get your
> hides out? walk and lead the horse with the plews on it's back?. They had a

Sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant to say was that I suspected that
a trapper would try to reserve as many of his pack animals for
consumables going in, and furs going out, as possible. His
personal stuff/camp gear would probably be light enough to carry
with him on his current mount.

I also suspect that new hiker syndrome ( something I see today on
National Forest trails ) would apply here. The greener the
greenhorn, the more junk he would tend to pack around.

Kristopher K. Barrett

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From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 01 Jun 2000 17:11:04 -0500

Ole #718 wrote about the guy who had a fancy truck with no where to
drive it:

>I don't know why, but vanity will make people do strange things.

Ole pointed out an important point about the fallacy of using logic to
deduce what the mountaineers had, did, etc.  People are not always
logical, and the mountaineers are no exception.  Look at today.  What is
the logic in wearing a buttoned collar with a strap of cloth snuggly
cinched around one's neck?  With long ends of the strap to get in the
way or serve as a convenient handle in a tussle!

It has already been pointed out that mountaineers shunned canteens.
There are many accounts of severe thirst, so it would have been logical
to carry canteens.  But A.J. Miller said that it was considered to be
effiminate for a mountaineer to carry a canteen.

As for me, I quickly skip reading the posts that say "I would have"
"They would have" "It stands to reason" etc.

As far as the Great Dutch Oven debate, I can only profusely apologize,
with strikes to my breast, for bringing up the subject a couple of
months ago by citing a State of Utah web page that authoritatively
claimed the mountaineers used Dutch Ovens.  I predicted a lot of
discussion, but who could have imagined what has transpired.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona
Date: 01 Jun 2000 21:29:56 -0400 (EDT)

"Arizona: Sierra Vista -
Beavers have been reintroduced to the San Pedro River to help diversify
the aquatic habitat of the national conservation area.  Six of nine
beavers released in the river over the past year have chosen mates and
built dams, which officials say will help create deeper pools and
rippling streams.  Local beavers were wiped out in the 1800's."

c.f. USA Today, Wed. 05-31-00, p.11A.

any comments on these doings by Arizona AMM member Vic "Barkin Dog"
Barkin ??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
Date: 01 Jun 2000 21:18:25 -0700

You Boys have just gotta try possum on the half shell.  Ya just don't know
what yer missing.  <GG>
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Beaver liver is GREAT!!!
D

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:15 PM




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From: vnb <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona
Date: 01 Jun 2000 20:53:44 -0700

The San Pedro is in the SE part of the state and is a tributary of the Heeley
(Gila river). The first trappers in Arizona worked that area starting in 1825.
James Ohio Pattie recorded the first trapping activities in that area followed
by another expedition in 1826 that included james O and Sylvester Pattie,
Milton Sublette and Antione Leroux. This was headed up by Michele Robidoux.
Also in 1826 Cerain St Vrain and Bill Williams trapped the area and Patties
returned again in 1827.

There were most likely many more unrecorded expeditions on the San Pedro
during the late 20' and 30s, but because all of Arizona and New Mexico was
mexican territory, not American, there were alot of unlicenced trappers who,
even if they could write, wouldn't want any journals of their illegal
activities known. Many of the new Mexican Trappers married mexican women in
order to become naturalized Mexican citizens and therefore obtain trapping
licenses to be able to legally dispose of their furs in Santa Fe without the
heavy tarriffs imposed on foriegners.

The area abounded in beaver which although lighter in color and slightly
inferior in quality was nevertheless able to be trapped all through the winter
months when trapping in the Rockies came to a standstill.

Arizona banned steel traps about eight years ago through legislative action
after a referendum failed, although there are efforts currently to repeal the
ban.

Hope this helps

Barkin Dawg

>===== Original Message From [e-mail] =====
>"Arizona: Sierra Vista -
>Beavers have been reintroduced to the San Pedro River to help diversify
>the aquatic habitat of the national conservation area.  Six of nine
>beavers released in the river over the past year have chosen mates and
>built dams, which officials say will help create deeper pools and
>rippling streams.  Local beavers were wiped out in the 1800's."
>
>c.f. USA Today, Wed. 05-31-00, p.11A.
>
>any comments on these doings by Arizona AMM member Vic "Barkin Dog"
>Barkin ??
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>from Michigan
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canteens
Date: 01 Jun 2000 22:46:41 -0500

Washtahay-
    there was a comment under this heading about E. coli being a potential
problem when using animal bladders as canteens, unfortunately I deleted the
post.
    Something about that struck me as wrong but I had so much else going on it
took a while to sink in.  E. coli is a digestive tract bacteria, not
normally found elsewhere unless the other parts of the animal are
contaminated by feces.
    The normal bladder used for a water container is the pericardium (the sac
around the heart)--there should be no E. coli present.  I have seen the
intestines used to carry water, but it makes the water taste bad and the
intestines don't last long in this application.  Theoretically, E. coli
could be a problem in this application.  But...
    The E. coli that causes problems is an acid-resistant strain.  Our stomach
acids normally kill the non-acid-resistant strains.  The growth of
acid-resistant strains is "forced" by feeding the animal grains,
particularly corn.  Animals consuming grasses (such as buffalo) normally
have the non-resitant strains, which might explain how such bladders were
used successfully as water vessels for so many thousands of years.
    Regarding questions of durability: if the water is changed on a daily
basis, such a bladder will last for a fairly long time in constant use.
The pericardium is naturally puncture resistant and fairly flexible.
    I guess the moral is if you want to use the pericardium as a canteen, keep
the shit out of the chest cavity.
    Other animal-sourced canteens were made from the entire skins of animals.
In the southwest and in Mexico, I've seen them made from the skins of dogs
and goats.  You carefully case the animal from the head, leaving the tail
end intact.  Flesh the hide, being sure to remove all integumentary
membrane.  Tie off the anus and vent with fine stitches and seal with pine
pitch.  Usually the "mouth" of the canteen consists of a wood ring sewn
into the neck, the bag is twisted and tied to close it.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: vnb <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona
Date: 01 Jun 2000 20:56:36 -0700

The San Pedro is in the SE part of the state and is a tributary of the Heeley
(Gila river). The first trappers in Arizona worked that area starting in 1825.
James Ohio Pattie recorded the first trapping activities in that area followed
by another expedition in 1826 that included james O and Sylvester Pattie,
Milton Sublette and Antione Leroux. This was headed up by Michele Robidoux.
Also in 1826 Cerain St Vrain and Bill Williams trapped the area and Patties
returned again in 1827.

There were most likely many more unrecorded expeditions on the San Pedro
during the late 20' and 30s, but because all of Arizona and New Mexico was
mexican territory, not American, there were alot of unlicenced trappers who,
even if they could write, wouldn't want any journals of their illegal
activities known. Many of the new Mexican Trappers married mexican women in
order to become naturalized Mexican citizens and therefore obtain trapping
licenses to be able to legally dispose of their furs in Santa Fe without the
heavy tarriffs imposed on foriegners.

The area abounded in beaver which although lighter in color and slightly
inferior in quality was nevertheless able to be trapped all through the winter
months when trapping in the Rockies came to a standstill.

Arizona banned steel traps about eight years ago through legislative action
after a referendum failed, although there are efforts currently to repeal the
ban.

Hope this helps

Barkin Dawg

>===== Original Message From [e-mail] =====
>"Arizona: Sierra Vista -
>Beavers have been reintroduced to the San Pedro River to help diversify
>the aquatic habitat of the national conservation area.  Six of nine
>beavers released in the river over the past year have chosen mates and
>built dams, which officials say will help create deeper pools and
>rippling streams.  Local beavers were wiped out in the 1800's."
>
>c.f. USA Today, Wed. 05-31-00, p.11A.
>
>any comments on these doings by Arizona AMM member Vic "Barkin Dog"
>Barkin ??
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>from Michigan
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: vnb <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona
Date: 01 Jun 2000 20:56:57 -0700

The San Pedro is in the SE part of the state and is a tributary of the Heeley
(Gila river). The first trappers in Arizona worked that area starting in 1825.
James Ohio Pattie recorded the first trapping activities in that area followed
by another expedition in 1826 that included james O and Sylvester Pattie,
Milton Sublette and Antione Leroux. This was headed up by Michele Robidoux.
Also in 1826 Cerain St Vrain and Bill Williams trapped the area and Patties
returned again in 1827.

There were most likely many more unrecorded expeditions on the San Pedro
during the late 20' and 30s, but because all of Arizona and New Mexico was
mexican territory, not American, there were alot of unlicenced trappers who,
even if they could write, wouldn't want any journals of their illegal
activities known. Many of the new Mexican Trappers married mexican women in
order to become naturalized Mexican citizens and therefore obtain trapping
licenses to be able to legally dispose of their furs in Santa Fe without the
heavy tarriffs imposed on foriegners.

The area abounded in beaver which although lighter in color and slightly
inferior in quality was nevertheless able to be trapped all through the winter
months when trapping in the Rockies came to a standstill.

Arizona banned steel traps about eight years ago through legislative action
after a referendum failed, although there are efforts currently to repeal the
ban.

Hope this helps

Barkin Dawg

>===== Original Message From [e-mail] =====
>"Arizona: Sierra Vista -
>Beavers have been reintroduced to the San Pedro River to help diversify
>the aquatic habitat of the national conservation area.  Six of nine
>beavers released in the river over the past year have chosen mates and
>built dams, which officials say will help create deeper pools and
>rippling streams.  Local beavers were wiped out in the 1800's."
>
>c.f. USA Today, Wed. 05-31-00, p.11A.
>
>any comments on these doings by Arizona AMM member Vic "Barkin Dog"
>Barkin ??
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>from Michigan
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 01 Jun 2000 22:09:29 -0600


Hello Glenn,

I for one am glad you brought the subject up.  James Clyman in his Journal
of a Mountain Man on page 111 talks about the Fort Bridger in 1844.  Saying
there were only about 30 of Bridger's men left with him.  I have read of
earlier Mormon travelers who stopped at Ft. Bridger who noted that some 100
mountain man lodges were gathered at the trading post.  Bridger was here at
the mouth of the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone with a large group of
mountain men for the winter of 1836-37.  After returning from Canada via
Fort Union near the mouth of the Yellowstone River.  Clyman makes a big
point that they were not in the trading business but in the trapping
business 1823.  They were going to cut out the Indian middlemen.  Determined
to go around the problem area of gaining the upper Missouri and access to
the Yellowstone country by via horse back up the North Platte River and
using that as the back door.  In looking at the map in the book.  Clyman
shows only one trip north west of the Big Horns.  While the passage used by
the rendezvous system for 15 years from 1825-1840 is on the map as is Fort
Hall.  I for one was really glad to see the post on Lewis and Clark and 1811
Manual Lisa posting.

Thanks
Walt
Park City, Montana




As far as the Great Dutch Oven debate, I can only profusely apologize,
with strikes to my breast, for bringing up the subject a couple of
months ago by citing a State of Utah web page that authoritatively
claimed the mountaineers used Dutch Ovens.  I predicted a lot of
discussion, but who could have imagined what has transpired.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner




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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
Date: 02 Jun 2000 00:13:49 -0400

Trapped a troublesome Possum onc't... Anyone that can look at an ugly
critter like that and think "FOOD" sure ain't et in a very L O N G time!!!
I've eaten Bear, Elk, Venison, Turtle, Montana Panther, dog, rattle snake,
and a few other things I never asked what it were... All of it was good...
especially the Rattlesnake... and it DON'T taste like chicken!!!

Ad Miller


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canteens
Date: 02 Jun 2000 00:18:56 -0400


> The normal bladder used for a water container is the pericardium (the sac
> around the heart)--

Dumb question here... I always thought the "Bladder" they were talking about
was the urinary bladder... well cleaned and washed of course...

Ad Miller


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From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dixie Catalog
Date: 01 Jun 2000 22:29:50 -0600

Hello the list

If someone has the 2000 Dixie Catalog, could you please send me (off
list)the price and item # for a Kentucky roundball mold in .520

Thanks,

Ron

<(⌐┐⌐)>

[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men Fishing
Date: 02 Jun 2000 00:51:48 EDT

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the fine responses to my request for "mountain men fishing"
references.  Very helpful.

John R. Sweet

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
Date: 01 Jun 2000 23:28:21 -0700

you got that right pentelton cooks in its own juices (Greese)---white
meat almost like yard bird but a bit slicker---needa a bit of salt and
hot sauce to make real good---

HAWK

On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:18:25 -0700 "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> You Boys have just gotta try possum on the half shell.  Ya just don't
> know
> what yer missing.  <GG>
> Pendleton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
>
>
> Beaver liver is GREAT!!!
> D
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Wyoming State Museum Discovery Trunk
Date: 02 Jun 2000 14:11:06 EDT

The Wyoming State University Museum has put together lesson plans and a
"Discovery Trunk," for teachers wishing to present instruction on the
American Fur Trade and Mountain Men.

Those of you working with Boy Scouts or presenting to school-age children,
might want to check out this web site, print the lesson plans, and duplicate
the contents of the trunk.  There is no problem using any of the materials,
the university just wants credit to be given to them when used.  The web site
is:

commerce.state.wy.us/cr/wsm/mount.htm

Dick Summers

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From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: more info- Beaver in Arizona
Date: 02 Jun 2000 12:12:36 -0700

Amm brother Jim Mahoney sent me this info in the new beaver population on
the San Pedro. The "removal" aspect could hold some promise...I'll be
watching the developments.

Comments Sought on Proposed Beaver  Reintroduction

The Bureau of Land Management, in cooperation with the Arizona Game and
Fish Department (AGFD), has prepared a draft Environmental Assessment and
Finding of No Significant Impact addressing a proposal to reestablish North
American beaver into the San Pedro Riparian National Conservation Area.
This document is now available for public review and comment through
February  18, 1997.

During an open house in Sierra Vista hosted by the BLM and AGFD, many
people submitted ideas and comments concerning the proposal. The 36_page
environmental assessment addresses the issues brought forward by the public
including  the suitability of the San Pedro riparian habitat for beaver;
the beaver's  influence on streamflow, water quality, and sediment
deposition; economic impacts of beaver; and the beaver's potential impacts
on riparian vegetation, human health, consumptive water use by vegetation,
and wildlife habitat and species, especially threatened and endangered
species. The reintroduction will provide many benefits to the San Pedro
riparian ecosystem by improving streamflow, water quality, riparian soils,
vegetation, and wildlife diversity.

Beaver reestablishment was first proposed by the BLM and AGFD in the San
Pedro Habitat Management Plan (signed November 1993).  Careful study has
been performed by both agencies to determine the feasibility of the
proposal.  If approved, AGFD will capture and release the animals, and BLM
and AGFD will jointly monitor the beaver to determine the effects of the
release.  Private landowners will be allowed to remove individuals from
their land  if damage occurs.

If you would like a copy of the Environmental Assessment and Finding of  No
Significant Impact, please contact the BLM Tucson Field Office at 12661
East Broadway, Tucson, AZ 85748_7208, or call 520_722_4289.  Please address
your comments to Jesse Juen, BLM Tucson Field Manager, at the above
address.  If you have additional questions, please contact Mark Fredlake,
BLM Wildlife  Biologist, at 520_458_3559.

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
AMM #1537
Three Rivers Party

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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Asphaltum Update
Date: 02 Jun 2000 18:14:08 -0500

--=====================_10786277==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed


Some time back we had a discussion regarding asphaltum.

I was wandering through a "Tractor Supply, Co." store the other day and
noticed 5 gallon cans of a real asphaltum varnish sold for coating corral
poles to prevent cribbing.

I haven't tried it, I don't have an immediate need.

John...


Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
john [e-mail]
_________________________________________-
Real men still have 8" floppies.
64k "CPM"rules.
Long Live "DR/DOS!"



--=====================_10786277==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3><br>
Some time back we had a discussion regarding asphaltum.<br>
<br>
I was wandering through a "Tractor Supply, Co." store the other
day and noticed 5 gallon cans of a real asphaltum varnish sold for
coating corral poles to prevent cribbing.<br>
<br>
I haven't tried it, I don't have an immediate need.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
<i>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. <br>
</i>john [e-mail]</font><br>

<font size=3>_________________________________________-<br>
Real men still have 8" floppies.  <br>
64k <b>"CPM"</b>rules.  <br>
Long Live <b>"DR/DOS!"<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></b></html>

--=====================_10786277==_.ALT--


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: virus gone
Date: 02 Jun 2000 20:27:11 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFCCD0.EE801AE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I recently "acquired" the 'kak' worm and inadvertantly passed it on.  =
Sorry if your computer was also infected.  I clicked on McAfee.com and =
downloaded their latest and greatest virus scan (in retrospect $30 a =
year seems pretty cheap), which detected and cleaned my computer of the =
problem.....at least McAfee insists I'm clean.  I also enlisted the help =
of my friend Mike Katona who gave me valuable advice....Thanks Mike.
So, as far as I know, my posts should be safe to read.   Prime BS, =
perhaps, but hopefully safe to open.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff=20
 =20

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFCCD0.EE801AE0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>I recently "acquired" the 'kak' worm and =
inadvertantly passed=20
it on.  Sorry if your computer was also infected.  I clicked =
on=20
McAfee.com and downloaded their latest and greatest virus scan (in =
retrospect=20
$30 a year seems pretty cheap), which detected and cleaned my computer =
of the=20
problem.....at least McAfee insists I'm clean.  I also enlisted the =
help of=20
my friend Mike Katona who gave me valuable advice....Thanks =
Mike.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>So, as far as I know, my posts should be safe to read.   =
Prime=20
BS, perhaps, but hopefully safe to open.</DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff </DIV>
<DIV> <SPAN =
id=3D__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFCCD0.EE801AE0--


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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fishing
Date: 02 Jun 2000 21:42:17 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BFCCDB.6BF22A40
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Does anyone recall any primary source references to fur trade-era =
mountain men fishing (either angling, suing fish traps or seines, etc.?) =


John R. Sweet

 About the first of January 1833, the game getting scarce in this =
vicinity, the Indians left us & moved down the river. We remained at =
this station employing our time in hunting, fishing, and such other =
sports as we could come at, but without any particular occurrence, until =
the 20th of February, when we set out on our spring hunt.

Zenus Lenard page 25 also mentions fishing page 13

YMOS

WY


------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BFCCDB.6BF22A40
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>Does anyone recall any primary source references to fur trade-era =
mountain=20
men fishing (either angling, suing fish traps or seines, etc.?) </P>
<P>John R. Sweet</P>
<P> About the first of January 1833, the game getting scarce in =
this=20
vicinity, the Indians left us & moved down the river. We remained at =
this=20
station employing our time in hunting, fishing, and such other sports as =
we=20
could come at, but without any particular occurrence, until the 20th of=20
February, when we set out on our spring hunt.</P>
<P>Zenus Lenard page 25 also mentions fishing page 13</P>
<P>YMOS</P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BFCCDB.6BF22A40--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more info- Beaver in Arizona
Date: 03 Jun 2000 12:41:48 EDT

Bear in mind that beaver have been in northern Arizona all along.  They were
never eradicated from the Colorado (including the Grand Canyon) and its
tributaries, and there has been a real nice population of them in Chevelon
Canyon and some of the other "rim creeks" (Clear Creek, Wet Beaver Creek, et.
al.) for decades, at least.

Chevelon Canyon was named for a French trapper that died there after eating
"some poisonous root" -Will C. Barnes, ARIZONA PLACE NAMES (Tucson: U. of A.,
1935): 90.

The question is whether beaver were historically ever present in the San
Pedro R., which I suspect they were, but does anybody have any documentation?

Historical presence doesn't mean much to US Fish & Wildlife, since they
planted the Mexican wolf up in the rim country of NM, when those wolves had
been trapped in semi-tropical Durango, Mexico and had never been recorded
farther north than extreme southern AZ (see Young and Goldman, THE WOLVES OF
N. AMERICA, Washington, 1944.)

John R. Sweet

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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: VIRUS--thanks for help
Date: 03 Jun 2000 12:46:29 -0400

List members, I got the monday nite virus. Not being very literate on
computers I was sunk. My friend Marilyn posted questions to help me. Thanks
to all who replied and answered questions to help me float again. Without
your help I wouldn`t have got rid of the virus.

I urge all to stay up dated on your virus program. I didn`t and got caught
with the virus. I now have an up to date Norton program.


AGAIN THANKS TO EVERYONE

John (BIG JOHN) Hunt


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From: "Terry R. Koenig" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more info- Beaver in Arizona
Date: 03 Jun 2000 12:23:21 -0600

John:

For documentation/explanation of beaver in the San Pedro/ Beaver River, see
David J. Weber's  " The Taos Trappers" Univ. of OK Press, p. 96, and the
"Personal Narrative Of James O. Pattie" by Timothy Flint, Univ. of NB Press,
p. 58.

Terry Koenig


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: VIRUS--thanks for help
Date: 03 Jun 2000 14:34:05 EDT

> List members, I got the monday nite virus. Not being very literate on
>  computers I was sunk.
>  I urge all to stay up dated on your virus program. I didn`t and got caught
>  with the virus. I now have an up to date Norton program.

It simply boggles my mind that folks get caught with these viruses, yet folks
whom I know have been on the internet for some time still seem to get caught.
 I was accused by one listmember on this list, that if I am so smart about
computers, then why don't I try to teach everyone else how to use them.  We
can, of course, see the fallacy in that statement.  My advice in the past
seems to have fallen on deaf ears, yet I will try once again.  Most of you
never take the time to configure your email program.  You just load it up and
accept the default settings.  This is obvious in your postings, because you
send messages to the list with colored backgrounds, html attachments, and a
variety of other arcane settings which serve no useful purpose and just waste
bandwidth, both of the reader and the storage space on the server.

Open your email program.................
Somewhere in the header bar is a choice called options.

Go into it and it to "plain text"  Turn off all the other choices including
html, text/multipart, colored backgrounds, and all the other choices.

There is a choice for "quoting back the entire message."  Turn it off too.
That will eliminate all the postings which contain the previous 5 messages
that everyone else quoted.  When you answer a posting, hold your left mouse
button down and pass it over a sentence or two, which illustrate what you are
posting to.  Release the button.  That block of text should be highlighted.
If you are using MS, then you can click the right mouse button.  A screen
will pop up.  Choose copy.  Hit reply and you will get a blank message with
the proper subject header.  Then hit your right mouse button again.  The
popup menu will appear again.  This time choose "paste."  The lines which you
want to quote will appear in your message.  You can then type in your
response and send it.  If you are using another email program, then you can
do the same thing, however, you must click on the "edit" button in the header
bar.  You should get the same options.  This will result in a simple message
to the list, with a couple of quoted lines, and your reply.  Using the same
left mouse button to highlight text, you can hit the backspace arrow.  This
will erase all the highlighted text.  There are many ways to accomplish the
same task.

Now, somewhere in the that options menu is also a choice for automatically
downloading attachments, or to open them only when you choose to.  Turn off
the automatic selection.  This is where you receive the viruses on your
computer.  You CAN NOT receive a virus unless you download the attachment
which contains it.  NEVER download any attachment which you have NOT
specifically requested from the sender.  ALL viruses come as attachments.
This may change in the future, but it is a fact at this point in time.  If
you receive an email with an attachment that you did not request, just delete
it.

I have been on the internet ever since correspondence was done by dial up
bulletin boards.  I ran one back in the 80's.  I am listowner of two mailing
lists like this one....one has 800 members and one has 150 members.  I DO NOT
nor have I ever used any type of virus program.  They are not necessary
unless you make it a habit of downloading attachments.  I have never been
infected, and I have had email addresses since AOL on had 25K subscribers, as
well as several other ISP's.

There is nothing that anyone can teach you about computers that an hour or
two of clicking the various choices in your program, and reading what the
choices are and what they do, won't accomplish.  99% of all the options and
choices are self-evident.
We spend hours of our valuable time doing research and passing on our
knowledge using this electronic medium, yet we fail to even spent a few hours
to learn how to use it to communicate effectively.  Not doing so denigrates
the efforts of all who do take the time to do so.  To become a member of the
AMM, you must meet certain requirements which show you have the basic skills.
 If you are a computer pilgrim, then make the same effort to acquire the
basic skills required to communicate with others who have done so.  No one
has to teach them to you.  They are there waiting for you to discover them.
You only have to "want' to do it.

Dave Kanger


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: VIRUS--thanks for help
Date: 03 Jun 2000 14:22:11 -0500

Dave Klanger wrote.

"It simply boggles my mind that folks get caught with these viruses, yet =
folks=20
whom I know have been on the internet for some time still seem to get =
caught.=20
 I was accused by one listmember on this list, that if I am so smart =
about=20
computers, then why don't I try to teach everyone else how to use them.  =
We=20
can, of course, see the fallacy in that statement.  My advice in the =
past=20
seems to have fallen on deaf ears, yet I will try once again.  Most of =
you=20
never take the time to configure your email program.  You just load it =
up and=20
accept the default settings.  This is obvious in your postings, because =
you=20
send messages to the list with colored backgrounds, html attachments, =
and a=20
variety of other arcane settings which serve no useful purpose and just =
waste=20
bandwidth, both of the reader and the storage space on the server....."

Dave
Your post contains some good information and some very good advice.  =
Thanks for taking the time to send it to the list.  Hopefully it will be =
put to good use by those who need it.=20
However, it comes across as a lecture delivered by a dour professor to a =
classroom full of nit wits.  I don't know if that is how you intended =
it, but that is how it reads to me, at least.  I have discovered that =
when I  "lecture" my "advice" falls less on deaf ears than on ears that =
just don't want to hear it.  I know of a Army Colonel whose every =
sentence is a lecture and only the only people who listen to him are =
those whom he outranks, and therefore have no choice.=20
But, like I said, the information is good and I thank you for posting =
it.

Lanney Ratcliff


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From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Walnut dye?
Date: 03 Jun 2000 15:02:14 -0500

Has anyone found a way to make walnut dyes a bit more permanent?    What =
do you add to the dye as a mordant?   I'll be dyeing canvas if it makes =
a difference.


Todd


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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: canteens
Date: 03 Jun 2000 17:41:26 -0500

    I made the comment about "e-coli is not a modern invention".  I prefaced
that with my opinion that a container made of animal 'bladder', whether
pericardium, urinary, stomach, skin or whatever might not be too hygienic.
    The point is that 'they' did not understand why it was necessary to
practice hygiene back then.  Animal product water containers would probably
acquire any number of unhealthy buggies with use.
    Even a modern plastic canteen can become unhealthy if not properly cared
for.
    At least they wouldn't have caught a 'KAK' virus back then.
Frank


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From: "John McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls
Date: 03 Jun 2000 18:01:10 -0500

Todd: If you are using English Walnuts you aren't going to get much dye.
Best is black walnut. For dying, the soft outer hull is used, not the hard
shell.  Ferrous Sulfate which is copperas (a water soluble powdered copper)
available at a good pharmacy or dye suppliers {contact me off list for a
list of those suppliers} is a good mordant for darker colors. Long John

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2000 3:02 PM


Has anyone found a way to make walnut dyes a bit more permanent?    What do
you add to the dye as a mordant?   I'll be dyeing canvas if it makes a
difference.


Todd


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: VIRUS--thanks for help
Date: 03 Jun 2000 19:23:01 EDT

Something I'd add to Daves 'lecture' ;)... those of you using any Microsoft
mail program (Outlook or Outlook Express for instance) might wanna think
about raising e-mail holy he*l with Microsoft for their inability or should I
say unwillingness to update their software to make sure these virus's aren't
accidentally received/transmitted.  Also, be aware that many of the newest
'worm' or 'trojan'  type bugs are not caught by the most common anti-virus
programs, like Norton or McAfee, even with updated 'DAT' files.  So, if you
do like to download attachments, click on links contained in e-mail or just
'surf' the web, check into other programs designed to protect your system.
I'm in no way affiliated with DiamondCS, but can attest that their TDS-2
program has identified stuff the AV's have missed, as well as having
intercepted 'probes' of my system and automatically notified the offending
hackers ISP so they can be dealt with accordingly.  Because these worm and
trojan 'bugs' are being written and released on the unsuspecting daily, it
couldn't hurt to have a program designed to catch the scripts used to write
them, a process entirely different than what an anti-virus does. Also, an
anti-virus or trojan defense program is not the same as a firewall, another
thing you should consider if you have a network setup or have your file and
printer sharing open.  The internet is a modern day wilderness, and these
type programs are the equivalent of carrying a rifle, pistol and knife into
that wilderness to protect yourself.  Barney

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more info- Beaver in Arizona
Date: 04 Jun 2000 01:26:15 EDT

Any evidence for beaver in the San Pedro besides JO Pattie (Weber merely
cites Pattie?)

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From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: VIRUS--thanks for help
Date: 04 Jun 2000 01:48:45 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Something I'd add to Daves 'lecture' ;)... those of you using any Microsoft
> mail program (Outlook or Outlook Express for instance) might wanna think
> about raising e-mail holy he*l with Microsoft for their inability or should I
> say unwillingness to update their software to make sure these virus's aren't
> accidentally received/transmitted.  Also, be aware that many of the newest
> 'worm' or 'trojan'  type bugs are not caught by the most common anti-virus

[snip]

I have to give credit where credit is due...Dave IS correct! DO NOT open
attachments and you WON'T get "hurt!" Of course, it is BEST to NOT use
any MickySoft mailers nor web browser, as there are holes that can be
exploited WITHOUT you're opening an attachment. Even better....get away
from ALL MickySoft products...period.

Fred

--
It said "Needs Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux...

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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: VIRUS--thanks for help
Date: 04 Jun 2000 02:08:29 -0400

*****Microsoft has a free download patch to correct the hole where the worm
got in. The worm was spread by attaching it`s self to the automatic
signature that many of us use.

>
> I have to give credit where credit is due...Dave IS correct! DO NOT open
> attachments and you WON'T get "hurt!" Of course, it is BEST to NOT use
> any MickySoft mailers nor web browser, as there are holes that can be
> exploited WITHOUT you're opening an attachment. Even better....get away
> from ALL MickySoft products...period.
>
> >
> ----------------------
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>
>


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From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: VIRUS--thanks for help
Date: 04 Jun 2000 02:43:20 -0400

John Hunt wrote:
>
> *****Microsoft has a free download patch to correct the hole where the worm
> got in. The worm was spread by attaching it`s self to the automatic
> signature that many of us use.
>
> >
> > I have to give credit where credit is due...Dave IS correct! DO NOT open
> > attachments and you WON'T get "hurt!" Of course, it is BEST to NOT use
> > any MickySoft mailers nor web browser, as there are holes that can be
> > exploited WITHOUT you're opening an attachment. Even better....get away
> > from ALL MickySoft products...period.

The MANY other holes are not patched.

--
MickySoft released W2K with OVER 23,000 KNOWN "issues!"

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From: "Gary A. Bell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wyoming State Museum Discovery Trunk
Date: 04 Jun 2000 08:56:51 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------4234BF180B91DF33888DE484
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello the list,

I struggled with the URL in Dick's message, searched around a little and found:

http://spacr.state.wy.us/cr/wsm/mount.htm

My printer is busily churning out the Mountain Man materials and a different
topic  Dick didn't mention on the Plains Indians.

Happy Trails!

[e-mail] wrote:

> The Wyoming State University Museum has put together lesson plans and a
> "Discovery Trunk," for teachers wishing to present instruction on the
> American Fur Trade and Mountain Men.
>
> Those of you working with Boy Scouts or presenting to school-age children,
> might want to check out this web site, print the lesson plans, and duplicate
> the contents of the trunk.  There is no problem using any of the materials,
> the university just wants credit to be given to them when used.  The web site
> is:
>
> commerce.state.wy.us/cr/wsm/mount.htm
>
> Dick Summers
>
> ----------------------
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--------------4234BF180B91DF33888DE484
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
 name="microptics.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Gary A. Bell
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="microptics.vcf"

begin:vcard
n:Bell;Gary
tel;pager:are you kidding
tel;cell:sorry
tel;fax:inconvenient
tel;home:503 631 3373
tel;work:503 631 3373
x-mozilla-html:TRUE
org:MICROPTICS
adr:;;19515 South Creek Lane;Oregon City;OR;97045;USA
version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:proprietor
note:specializing in repair, preventive maintenance, design, consulting and training services on microscopes and allied equipment
end:vcard

--------------4234BF180B91DF33888DE484--


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From: vnb <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: more info- Beaver in Arizona
Date: 04 Jun 2000 13:03:57 -0700

I'll have to go back and research this. Most of my info comes from the Hafen
series, Chittenden, Patties narratives, "The beaver Men", and "This Reckless
Breed of Men".

I had done the initial research many years back and had since made a map
tracing the routes listed in these publications that I now use for living
history demos.

The Journey never ends...

Barkin Dawg

>===== Original Message From [e-mail] =====
>Any evidence for beaver in the San Pedro besides JO Pattie (Weber merely
>cites Pattie?)
>
>----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wyoming State Museum Discovery Trunk
Date: 04 Jun 2000 17:25:56 EDT

Well, that's the web address but I had trouble myself when I tried to get
there --

I found the site using the search engine "google."  Which I suggest everyone
bookmark and use whenever you're trying to find a topic.

So to find the Wyoming State Museum Mountain Man or Plains Indians Discovery
Trunk(s) - go to google.  Type in

Wyoming+Museum+Discovery+Trunk+Program

the first four hits will connect you to either the Plains Indians or Mountain
Man Teachers Manuals.  It's interesting the artifacts they put in their
trunks to illustrate the time period.

Sorry for the confusion, but I've been in more confusing situations by far.

Dick Summers

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Asphaltum Update
Date: 05 Jun 2000 08:17:49 -0700



John,
Is this the same type asphaltum used in the process of "jappanning"?  And how
does one do this? I guess it's a paint and bake affair eh?
Rick



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]]
Date: 05 Jun 2000 13:32:34 EDT

"larry pendleton" <[e-mail]> wrote:
You Boys have just gotta try possum on the half shell.  Ya just don't kno=
w
what yer missing.  <GG>
Pendleton
TALK ABOUT GONE UNDER, ANYONE TALK TO BUCK LATELY.

CONCHO.


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]]
Date: 05 Jun 2000 11:38:54 -0600

Beaver liver and possum.  Sounds like poor meat.  I like looking at the
buffalo and elk across the way.

Walt

On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana

You Boys have just gotta try possum on the half shell.  Ya just don't know
what yer missing.  <GG>
Pendleton
TALK ABOUT GONE UNDER, ANYONE TALK TO BUCK LATELY.

CONCHO.




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From: Matt Porter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bean Rifle
Date: 05 Jun 2000 12:54:11 -0500

To all,
    Does anyone know how popular rifles made by Bean were during the Fur
Trade and if there are any documented cases of their use in the
mountains?  Thanks.

YMHS
Matt Porter
________________________________________________________________
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Asphaltum Update
Date: 05 Jun 2000 13:59:19 -0500

--=====================_5247669==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Rick,

I don't have a clue.  The can claimed the active ingredient is asphalt, how=
=20
thin it is, or whether it contains sufficient hardeners and/or driers to=20
use for japanning I don't know.

I don't have anything I need to japan at the moment and I've only seen it=20
in 5 gallon cans.  Maybe someone who has a few corral poles to protect can=
=20
try some out on a scrap or two of tin.

The old product I used which was sold as "asphaltum varnish" didn't require=
=20
any baking only air drying.

John...


At 08:17 AM 6/5/00 -0700, you wrote:


>John,
>Is this the same type asphaltum used in the process of "jappanning"?  And=
 how
>does one do this? I guess it's a paint and bake affair eh?
>Rick

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>

--=====================_5247669==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<font size=3D3>Rick,<br>
<br>
I don't have a clue.  The can claimed the active ingredient is
asphalt, how thin it is, or whether it contains sufficient hardeners
and/or driers to use for japanning I don't know.  <br>
<br>
I don't have anything I need to japan at the moment and I've only seen it
in 5 gallon cans.  Maybe someone who has a few corral poles to
protect can try some out on a scrap or two of tin.<br>
<br>
The old product I used which was sold as "asphaltum varnish"
didn't require any baking only air drying.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
At 08:17 AM 6/5/00 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite cite>John,<br>
Is this the same type asphaltum used in the process of
"jappanning"?  And how<br>
does one do this? I guess it's a paint and bake affair eh?<br>
Rick</font></blockquote><br>
<div>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0</div>
<br>
<div>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</div>
<div>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</div>
<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<</div>
<br>
<div><<a href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/"=
 EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</a>></div>
<br>
<div>mail to: <[e-mail]> </div>
</html>

--=====================_5247669==_.ALT--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls]]
Date: 05 Jun 2000 18:33:51 -0400

I forwarded this thread to a friend who is a spinner and weaver. She
asked me to pass this on.

Tell this person that Black walnut hulls while they are still "green"
are
the best to use, but they CAN use the dried hulls if they soak it
overnight......longer depending on the darkness of color they want....as
for a mordant tell them to use alum....which is a "spice".  I think that
they use 1 tsp per pint of water......(cotton fiber is a pretty easy
fiber
to dye).  Tell this person that TEA leaves maybe a better dye or coffee.
I can send to you the formulas of all three if you need
them.....including
the Alum also.....

>Todd: If you are using English Walnuts you aren't going to get much dye.
>Best is black walnut. For dying, the soft outer hull is used, not the
>hard
>shell.  Ferrous Sulfate which is copperas (a water soluble powdered
>copper)
>available at a good pharmacy or dye suppliers {contact me off list for a
>list of those suppliers} is a good mordant for darker colors. Long John
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls]]
Date: 05 Jun 2000 21:40:00 -0500

Thanks!    I liked the look of the walnut dye I saw on a feller's =
rifleman's frock and trousers.   There's plenty of Black Walnuts around =
here, so I'll start picking up the nuts instead of running over them =
with the lawnmower (you'd be amazed how far them things fly).  That is =
if the tree-rats don't get em first.  =3D)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
> [e-mail]
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 5:34 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls]]
>=20
>=20
> I forwarded this thread to a friend who is a spinner and weaver. She
> asked me to pass this on.
>=20
> Tell this person that Black walnut hulls while they are still "green"
> are=20
> the best to use, but they CAN use the dried hulls if they soak it=20
> overnight......longer depending on the darkness of color they =
want....as=20
> for a mordant tell them to use alum....which is a "spice".  I think =
that=20
> they use 1 tsp per pint of water......(cotton fiber is a pretty easy
> fiber=20
> to dye).  Tell this person that TEA leaves maybe a better dye or =
coffee.
> I can send to you the formulas of all three if you need
> them.....including=20
> the Alum also.....
>=20
> >Todd: If you are using English Walnuts you aren't going to get much =
dye.
> >Best is black walnut. For dying, the soft outer hull is used, not the
> >hard
> >shell.  Ferrous Sulfate which is copperas (a water soluble powdered
> >copper)
> >available at a good pharmacy or dye suppliers {contact me off list =
for a
> >list of those suppliers} is a good mordant for darker colors. Long =
John
> >
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls]]
Date: 05 Jun 2000 21:07:17 -0700 (PDT)


Ferrous Sulfate which is copperas (a
> water soluble powdered
> > >copper)


 Sorry folks!
The Chemistry teacher in me cain't leave this one
alone.
 Ferrous or Ferric refers to Iron. As a ferrier makes
and applys iron horseshoes.
Ferrous sulfate is an iron and sulfur compound.
No copper here !!
 Copper sulfate or blue vitrol will dissolve in water
and turn it blue, it has been used to some extent to
reduce algae in ponds, but is poisonous, just like the
"green" in copper pots.
 You can make a strong solution of it and dip a clean
nail in and the copper will coat the nail.(It rubs off
eaisly though.)
grn


=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

__________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls]]
Date: 06 Jun 2000 00:36:43 EDT

>  Ferrous sulfate is an iron and sulfur compound.
>  No copper here !

Nice catch, George.......that one slipped right by.

>  Ferrous or Ferric refers to Iron. As a ferrier makes
>  and applys iron horseshoes.

Most of the cowboys are going to dispute you and say the word is "farrier,"
which is the English word.  However, most of them don't know you are an F&I
guy and that the origin of the worrd in Old French is indeed "ferrier"
meaning blacksmith and derived from the latin root ferrarus from ferrum for
iron.

Just thought I might clear that up too.  <G>

Dave Kanger

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From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls]]
Date: 06 Jun 2000 02:04:25 -0500

FeSO4, as I recall my chemistry, would be ferrous sulfate.  Cupric =
Sulfate is the blue stuff.   I remembered that much of high school =
chemistry.  I intend to check the local pharmacy for the ferrous =
sulfate.   That failing, I'll try alum. =20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of George Noe
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 11:07 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut =
hulls]]
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Ferrous Sulfate which is copperas (a
> > water soluble powdered
> > > >copper)
>=20
>=20
>  Sorry folks!
> The Chemistry teacher in me cain't leave this one
> alone.
>  Ferrous or Ferric refers to Iron. As a ferrier makes
> and applys iron horseshoes.
> Ferrous sulfate is an iron and sulfur compound.
> No copper here !!
>  Copper sulfate or blue vitrol will dissolve in water
> and turn it blue, it has been used to some extent to
> reduce algae in ponds, but is poisonous, just like the
> "green" in copper pots.
>  You can make a strong solution of it and dip a clean
> nail in and the copper will coat the nail.(It rubs off
> eaisly though.)
> grn
> =20
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> George R. Noe< [e-mail] >                          =20
> Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
>=20
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
> http://photos.yahoo.com
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls]]
Date: 06 Jun 2000 02:46:17 -0500

Todd,

Don't you have some rusty old hunk of iron laying around?  Dissolve what
you need in strong vinegar, or simply scrape it off and grind in a mortar
and pestle.

Strong vinegar can be reduced by evaporation or combined as an add
ingredient in many receipts.  Vinegar can be neutralized with baking soda
and water.  Red or Yellow Iron Oxide (Ochre) can be gathered from the
ground in some places and used as well.  Nuts, bolts and nails will work;
as well as a rusted shut post vice.  It pays to test and experiment.

Or maybe you have some heavily corroded copper, or brass, or ?

Differing "salts" of various metals only give a little different colors.

Combined with organic materials (like walnut hulls, onion peels, etc., ad
nauseam) a rich variety of subtle colors, shades and variations are
possible on wood as well as cloth.  Some receipts are used cold -- some at
a boil; some combine both to "shock" the  cloth.  A lifetime can be spent
learning intricacies and techniques of dyeing.

A good place to start is the Dover reprint "The Dyers Companion".

Remember, old receipts seldom detail all the steps and procedures in
detail.  The secrets of a trade used to be serious business.  All was never
revealed.

Reagent grade chemicals ain't like it was.

John...


At 02:04 AM 6/6/00 -0500, you wrote:
>FeSO4, as I recall my chemistry, would be ferrous sulfate.  Cupric Sulfate
>is the blue stuff.   I remembered that much of high school chemistry.  I
>intend to check the local pharmacy for the ferrous sulfate.   That
>failing, I'll try alum.

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>


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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bean rifle
Date: 06 Jun 2000 07:42:48 -0500

    It has been asked if small bore longrifles were used by the RMFT guys.
    My philosophy [theory] on things like this is that 'they' used whatever
they had or could get their hands on.  There is not argument that most of
the trappers came from the east and if they had a rifle brought it with
them.  Most of these would have been Penn/Ky/Tenn style small-bore
longrifles.
    If the trappers lived and prospered they may have been able to obtain a
large bore Hawken style later on.  And if they did, I suspect that most
would have kept the smaller rifle also. After all, they use less lead and
powder and are effective on anything smaller than griz, buf or elk.
    I have always wondered how many trappers there were in the mountains at
any given time.  And, is there any knowledge of what percentage of these
carried what kind of fire arm?
Frank


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: Bean rifle]
Date: 06 Jun 2000 09:47:43 EDT

"Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]> wrote:
    It has been asked if small bore longrifles were used by the RMFT guys=
=2E
    My philosophy [theory] on things like this is that 'they' used whatev=
er
they had or could get their hands on.  There is not argument that most of=

the trappers came from the east and if they had a rifle brought it with
them.  Most of these would have been Penn/Ky/Tenn style small-bore
longrifles.
    If the trappers lived and prospered they may have been able to obtain=
 a
large bore Hawken style later on.  And if they did, I suspect that most
would have kept the smaller rifle also. After all, they use less lead and=

powder and are effective on anything smaller than griz, buf or elk.
    I have always wondered how many trappers there were in the mountains =
at
any given time.  And, is there any knowledge of what percentage of these
carried what kind of fire arm?............

Hanson and several others have written and said in lectures that a large
percentage where muskets, smoothbore and large cal. (ones gotten when you=

finish your enlistment). Of course tradeguns and many of the heavier plai=
ns
rifles, both large bores (large bore from what I've been able to find was=
 50
cal. and above). This is a subject that has been kick around for years,
Charlie said he once tried to put percentages on sizes of bores, rifled o=
r
smooth, flint or perc. and everytime he thought he had a good sampling -
additional information changed his percentages.

Concho.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: more mordant info
Date: 06 Jun 2000 11:33:17 -0500

The information I received from my wife {also a spinner and weaver} came
from one of her many dye books. Its is "Dye Plants and Dying" put out by the
Brooklyn Botanic Garden Record VOL. 20 #3  ISSN #0362-5850. Also information
on mordant suppliers in "A Dyer's Garden" by Rita Buchanan  ISBN
#1-883010-07-1.
    Page 33 of the Dyer's Garden describes the mordants that can be used.
The First book mentioned backs up what I originally wrote but the other lady
was not wrong. Alum is used for cotton rather than wool.
    My wife's suggestion is to read as many dye books as you can find
because each one has a different opinion but you can learn from each one.
Long John



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bean rifle
Date: 06 Jun 2000 13:40:37 -0600

Frank,
    I have a old original gun that is about 40 cal. Built around 1838, it found

it's way to the rocky mountains some time in the past. I agree that most of
the guns in the west were large caliber, but not all. I also think that some
small
guns found their way west and were rebored to a larger size. A spare gun was
nice to have (what ever caliber) and who says that some small guns were not
used
by  young boys, traded at posts and lost in card games? On your question on
how many men were in the west at one time- I can only say that I have a 300
page list of names of people in the west (with their occupations and
references)
that will end up on Dean's web site after final proofing. So far around 1700
(+/-) names are on that list. It biggest reason that larger bored guns were
popular
was the size of the game. A small calibered gun could still be used in a fight
(or stand
off), for deer and antelope and small game.
                                                            mike.

 http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616

Frank Fusco wrote:

>     It has been asked if small bore longrifles were used by the RMFT guys.
>     My philosophy [theory] on things like this is that 'they' used whatever
> they had or could get their hands on.  There is not argument that most of
> the trappers came from the east and if they had a rifle brought it with
> them.  Most of these would have been Penn/Ky/Tenn style small-bore
> longrifles.
>     If the trappers lived and prospered they may have been able to obtain a
> large bore Hawken style later on.  And if they did, I suspect that most
> would have kept the smaller rifle also. After all, they use less lead and
> powder and are effective on anything smaller than griz, buf or elk.
>     I have always wondered how many trappers there were in the mountains at
> any given time.  And, is there any knowledge of what percentage of these
> carried what kind of fire arm?
> Frank
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bean rifle
Date: 06 Jun 2000 16:30:33 -0600

Gentelmen,
I have an original 1814 Common Rifle made for the war of 1812, it is 54 cal
rifled flintlock simmilar to the original Harpers Ferry used by L&C. It
seems to me that there was a movement towards the larger bore guns in the
early 1800's due to the new expansion westword. But I also agree with the
statement made earlier, that a lot of guns of smaller caliber were handed
down and taken west by young men with modest means. I also remember that
most of the men working as trapers were Indian and half breads wrather then
eastern white boys.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bean rifle
>Date: Tue, Jun 6, 2000, 1:40 PM
>

>Frank,
>    I have a old original gun that is about 40 cal. Built around 1838, it found
>
>it's way to the rocky mountains some time in the past. I agree that most of
>the guns in the west were large caliber, but not all. I also think that some
>small
>guns found their way west and were rebored to a larger size. A spare gun was
>nice to have (what ever caliber) and who says that some small guns were not
>used
>by  young boys, traded at posts and lost in card games? On your question on
>how many men were in the west at one time- I can only say that I have a 300
>page list of names of people in the west (with their occupations and
>references)
>that will end up on Dean's web site after final proofing. So far around 1700
>(+/-) names are on that list. It biggest reason that larger bored guns were
>popular
>was the size of the game. A small calibered gun could still be used in a fight
>(or stand
>off), for deer and antelope and small game.
>                                                            mike.
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616
>
>Frank Fusco wrote:
>
>>     It has been asked if small bore longrifles were used by the RMFT guys.
>>     My philosophy [theory] on things like this is that 'they' used whatever
>> they had or could get their hands on.  There is not argument that most of
>> the trappers came from the east and if they had a rifle brought it with
>> them.  Most of these would have been Penn/Ky/Tenn style small-bore
>> longrifles.
>>     If the trappers lived and prospered they may have been able to obtain a
>> large bore Hawken style later on.  And if they did, I suspect that most
>> would have kept the smaller rifle also. After all, they use less lead and
>> powder and are effective on anything smaller than griz, buf or elk.
>>     I have always wondered how many trappers there were in the mountains at
>> any given time.  And, is there any knowledge of what percentage of these
>> carried what kind of fire arm?
>> Frank
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more mordant info
Date: 06 Jun 2000 17:28:49 -0700 (PDT)


--- John McKee <[e-mail]> wrote:
> The information I received from my wife {also a
> spinner and weaver} came
> from one of her many dye books. Its is "Dye Plants
> and Dying" put out by the
> Brooklyn Botanic Garden Record VOL. 20 #3  ISSN
> #0362-5850. Also information
> on mordant suppliers in "A Dyer's Garden" by Rita
> Buchanan  ISBN
> #1-883010-07-1.
>     Page 33 of the Dyer's Garden describes the
> mordants that can be used.
> The First book mentioned backs up what I originally
> wrote but the other lady
> was not wrong. Alum is used for cotton rather than
> wool.
>     My wife's suggestion is to read as many dye
> books as you can find
> because each one has a different opinion but you can
> learn from each one.
> Long John
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gone under???
Date: 06 Jun 2000 20:32:27 EDT

A Beavers tail is all fat, but if you stop and think about it, that could be
why it was wanted.   Fat has 9 calories per gram while carbs and protein have
4.  Your body requires some fat, and the fat if fat cow and elk was usually
lost in the cooking.

                                TrapRjoe

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more mordant info
Date: 06 Jun 2000 17:40:22 -0700 (PDT)

Sorry !! Please deleat this,(and the last one) I
thought I did, must hit the wrong "button"
 Again SORRY !!!
grn
--- George Noe <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> --- John McKee <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > The information I received from my wife {also a
> > spinner and weaver} came
> > from one of her many dye books. Its is "Dye Plants

=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "no" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: keelboat
Date: 06 Jun 2000 20:46:11 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFCFF8.3F884F00
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To the list:  here is an article from the June 6th Omaha World Herald on =
line, about a Lewis and Clark replica Keelboat,  =20
http://omaha.com/Omaha/OWH/StoryViewer/1,3153,347152,00.html

    Frank

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFCFF8.3F884F00
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>To the list:  here is an article from the June =
6th Omaha=20
World Herald on line, about a Lewis and Clark replica =
Keelboat,  =20
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://omaha.com/Omaha/OWH/StoryViewer/1,3153,347152,00.html">htt=
p://omaha.com/Omaha/OWH/StoryViewer/1,3153,347152,00.html</A></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>    Frank</DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFCFF8.3F884F00--


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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Wyoming State Museum Discovery Trunk
Date: 06 Jun 2000 23:25:46 -0600




Top of the evening to you, Dick Summers.

Have you, or anyone else, read the 38 pages of text from this down load
site?

Walt
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana

 -----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]  On Behalf Of
[e-mail]
Sent:    Sunday, June 04, 2000 3:26 PM

Well, that's the web address but I had trouble myself when I tried to get
there --

I found the site using the search engine "google."  Which I suggest everyone
bookmark and use whenever you're trying to find a topic.

So to find the Wyoming State Museum Mountain Man or Plains Indians Discovery
Trunk(s) - go to google.  Type in

Wyoming+Museum+Discovery+Trunk+Program

the first four hits will connect you to either the Plains Indians or
Mountain
Man Teachers Manuals.  It's interesting the artifacts they put in their
trunks to illustrate the time period.

Sorry for the confusion, but I've been in more confusing situations by far.

Dick Summers

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls]]
Date: 07 Jun 2000 08:12:10 -0500

Thank's John!   I have lot's of rusty iron out by the forge.  Duh.  =
Should have thought about that. =20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of John Kramer
> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 2:46 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut =
hulls]]
>=20
>=20
> Todd,
>=20
> Don't you have some rusty old hunk of iron laying around?  Dissolve =
what=20
> you need in strong vinegar, or simply scrape it off and grind in a =
mortar=20
> and pestle.
>=20

Now THAT I don't have, but I know where I can get them easily enough.


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Karl Kroll" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #568
Date: 07 Jun 2000 11:34:27 -0500

Does anyone know where I can buy an approximately 10 x 8 foot used tent
suitable for rendezvous?
Or I would like plans to make my own tent.  What type of material is most
authentic?
PS What are the best types of wood, available in Minnesota, for starting
fires with friction? (I tried willow for the stick and Basswood? for the
fireboard with no luck.)

Thank you, Abe



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 7:40 AM


>
> hist_text-digest        Wednesday, May 31 2000        Volume 01 : Number
568
>
>
>
> In this issue:
>
> - MtMan-List: Virus
> - Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> - Re: MtMan-List: Virus
> - Re: MtMan-List: Virus
> - MtMan-List: gone under???
> - Re: MtMan-List: Virus
> - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men fishing?
> - Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> - Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men Fishing
> - MtMan-List: Dutch ovens
> - Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:28:56 -0400
> From: "Marilyn R. NIchols" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: Virus
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_00EA_01BFCA86.71446780
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> If anyone on the list knows the name of the virus that we received last =
> night please reply to me as soon as possible.  One of the long time =
> members of this list has been affected with the virus and needs the name =
> in hopes that his system can be saved.  Thanks.
>
> Marilyn
> [e-mail]
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_00EA_01BFCA86.71446780
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
> http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>If anyone on the list knows the name =
> of the virus=20
> that we received last night please reply to me as soon as =
> possible.  One of=20
> the long time members of this list has been affected with the virus and =
> needs=20
> the name in hopes that his system can be saved.  =
> Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Marilyn</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><A=20
> href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT><=
> /DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_00EA_01BFCA86.71446780--
>
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:44:21 -0700
> From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>
> Bill and Ole,
> Keep in mind, you can cook on a stick, but it's hard to mend those rifle
> locks and beaver traps without a anvil.
> Pendleton
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Cunningham <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 7:26 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>
>
> Ole, I believe Blacksmith Fork got it's name well after the fur trade
> period. Of course, there was a rendezvous during the trade just to the
north
> of the canyon mouth by what the pioneers called White Rock.
> Bill C
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 6:56 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>
>
> >Capt"
> >Not Even!
> >Just making a statement as to what they would and could have hauled in on
> >horse back or by cart.
> >An anvil would weigh from 60 to 150 pounds and there are journals that
> >memtion them being hauled into the mountain's. On that note they could
have
> >hauled 20 pots made of cast iron to equal one 120 pound anvil. It's
amazing
> >to me what they hauled in.
> >If I were traping and trading for beaver I would haul in all sorts of
goods
> >for trade including cast iron.
> >Ole # 718
> >----------
> >>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
> >>To: <[e-mail]>
> >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >>Date: Tue, May 30, 2000, 6:14 PM
> >>
> >
> >>Ole,
> >>
> >>Mind if I wonder a bit about the thought process here a little? <G> I
> >>presume that you are suggesting the idea that the anvil was made into
cast
> >>iron pots?
> >>
> >>>From what little I know about cast iron foundry work, it is a very
> >>specialized process that requires not only special equipment in the form
> of
> >>a smelter but also just the right fuels to get the metal to melt and
pour,
> >>etc. not to mention the special sands and molds that would be required.
> >>
> >>I would respectfully submit that such would not have been even remotely
> >>possible anywhere west of the Great River during that time. Only
> supposition
> >>on my part but I think that is correct. I remain.....
> >>
> >>YMOS
> >>Capt. Lahti'
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
> >>To: <[e-mail]>
> >>Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:41 PM
> >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >>
> >>
> >>> Jerry,
> >>> Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was
held
> up
> >>> Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it
> >>called
> >>> Black Smiths Fork?
> >>> 120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
> >>> Ole # 718
> >>> ----------
> >>> >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
> >>> >To: [e-mail]
> >>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
> >>> >Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> >Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity
> >>stuff
> >>> >again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
> >>> >
> >>> >I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
> >>> >opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch
> >>Oven,
> >>> >a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were
> >>there
> >>> >back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure
> some
> >>of
> >>> >it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
> >>> >submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not
be
> >>> >appropriate in the mountains.
> >>> >
> >>> >My view is, just because you can document something only proves it
was
> >>> >there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that
> >>William
> >>> >Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if
everyone
> >>wants
> >>> >to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon,
it
> >>> >would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
> >>> >Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
> >>> >
> >>> >I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over
> the
> >>> >fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.
I
> >>also
> >>> >bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my
> horse
> >>> >agrees.
> >>> >
> >>> >Just my 2 cents.
> >>> >
> >>> >Best Regards,
> >>> >
> >>> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
> >>>
>
>>>_________________________________________________________________________
> __
> >>_____
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >>No Sir,
> >>> >>
> >>> >>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort
> >>Union
> >>> >>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
> >>> >>mountain man period.
> >>> >>Walt
> >>> >>Park City, Montana
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
> >>> >>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Tom
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>----------------------
> >>> >>hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >----------------------
> >>> >hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> ----------------------
> >>> hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----------------------
> >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:45:26 -0400
> From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virus
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BFCA88.BF89B7E0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Here is the virus that was sent... hope it helps everyone... This was =
> from my Norton Log...
>
> Ad Miller
>
>
>
> Date: 5/29/00, Time: 21:00:00, Default on 12345
>
> The file
>
> C:\windows\Start Menu\Programs\StartUp\kak.hta
>
> was infected with the WScript.KakWorm virus.
>
> The file was deleted.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----=20
>   From: Marilyn R. NIchols=20
>   To: [e-mail]=20
>   Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:28 PM
>   Subject: MtMan-List: Virus
>
>
>   If anyone on the list knows the name of the virus that we received =
> last night please reply to me as soon as possible.  One of the long time =
> members of this list has been affected with the virus and needs the name =
> in hopes that his system can be saved.  Thanks.
>
>   Marilyn
>   [e-mail]
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BFCA88.BF89B7E0
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
> http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> <DIV>
> <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here is the virus that was sent... hope =
> it helps=20
> everyone... This was from my Norton Log...</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ad Miller</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </P>
> <P><FONT size=3D4>Date: 5/29/00, Time: 21:00:00, Default on =
> 12345</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT size=3D4>The file</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT size=3D4>C:\windows\Start =
> Menu\Programs\StartUp\kak.hta</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT size=3D4>was infected with the WScript.KakWorm =
> virus.</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT size=3D4>The file was deleted.</FONT></P></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
> 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
>   <DIV=20
>   style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>   <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
> title=[e-mail]>Marilyn=20
>   R. NIchols</A> </DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
>   href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
>   title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
> </DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 30, 2000 =
> 10:28=20
> PM</DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
> Virus</DIV>
>   <DIV><BR></DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>If anyone on the list knows the name =
> of the=20
>   virus that we received last night please reply to me as soon as=20
>   possible.  One of the long time members of this list has been =
> affected=20
>   with the virus and needs the name in hopes that his system can be =
> saved. =20
>   Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
>   <DIV> </DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Marilyn</FONT></DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><A=20
>   =
> href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT><=
> /DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BFCA88.BF89B7E0--
>
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:49:35 -0400
> From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virus
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BFCA89.53B58AC0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> According to Norton, it only affects documents, and is passed via emails =
> without the sender knowing it. It is a common virus,but is not supposed =
> to be "lethal"..
>
> Ad Miller
>   ----- Original Message -----=20
>   From: Marilyn R. NIchols=20
>   To: [e-mail]=20
>   Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:28 PM
>   Subject: MtMan-List: Virus
>
>
>   If anyone on the list knows the name of the virus that we received =
> last night please reply to me as soon as possible.  One of the long time =
> members of this list has been affected with the virus and needs the name =
> in hopes that his system can be saved.  Thanks.
>
>   Marilyn
>   [e-mail]
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BFCA89.53B58AC0
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
> http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>According to Norton, it only affects =
> documents, and=20
> is passed via emails without the sender knowing it. It is a common =
> virus,but is=20
> not supposed to be "lethal"..</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ad Miller</FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
> 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
>   <DIV=20
>   style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>   <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
> title=[e-mail]>Marilyn=20
>   R. NIchols</A> </DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
>   href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
>   title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
> </DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 30, 2000 =
> 10:28=20
> PM</DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
> Virus</DIV>
>   <DIV><BR></DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>If anyone on the list knows the name =
> of the=20
>   virus that we received last night please reply to me as soon as=20
>   possible.  One of the long time members of this list has been =
> affected=20
>   with the virus and needs the name in hopes that his system can be =
> saved. =20
>   Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
>   <DIV> </DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Marilyn</FONT></DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><A=20
>   =
> href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT><=
> /DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BFCA89.53B58AC0--
>
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:57:19 -0500
> From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: gone under???
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_00B3_01BFCA82.06EB33E0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> Ok, here is something.
>
> I have read numerous references to beaver tail being a "delicacy" or a =
> "dainty" or some such.  Until I know from first hand experience I will =
> remain skeptical about how tasty beaver tail is.  Seems like a beaver =
> filet or a drumstick would be a more likely meal.  I would appreciate =
> some first hand info.
>
> In trade here is something I do know: =20
> Armadillo meat has 780 calories per pound and is dang tasty....even if =
> there are some mighty peculiar bones in the little varmits.  They shuck =
> out of their shells very easily and the fat on their back bastes them as =
> they roast before a fire.  If you ever chase one into a hole he will =
> grip the sides of the hole like grim death.  To get him out,  grab his =
> tail and goose him in the belly with a ramrod.  He will let got for a =
> second and you can snatch him out of his hide-out.  Whack him in the =
> head with the poll of your hawk and let him flop for a minute or two.    =
> His shell is well known, but his underside is just skin and is covered =
> with alien looking hairs.....make you pause and think it over before =
> your put your knife to work.  One word of caution....Armadillos =
> sometimes carry a variety of leprosy and you shouldn't handle one if you =
> have open cuts on your hands and he should be cooked "well done".  =
> Experts swear that the leprosy they sometimes carry (in Louisana mostly) =
> isn't dangerous to humans but being careful is best.
>
> I am not making this up.  Really.
> YMOS
> Lanney Ratcliff
>
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_00B3_01BFCA82.06EB33E0
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
> http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"POSITION: absolute; RIGHT: 0px; TOP: -20px; Z-INDEX: 5">
> <OBJECT classid=3Dclsid:06290BD5-48AA-11D2-8432-006008C3FBFC=20
> id=3Dscr></OBJECT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D3>Ok, here is something.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>I have read numerous references to beaver tail being a "delicacy" =
> or a=20
> "dainty" or some such.  Until I know from first hand experience I =
> will=20
> remain skeptical about how tasty beaver tail is.  Seems like a =
> beaver filet=20
> or a drumstick would be a more likely meal.  I would appreciate =
> some first=20
> hand info.</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D3>In trade here is something I do know:  =
> </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D3>Armadillo meat has 780 calories per pound and is =
> dang=20
> tasty....even if there are some mighty peculiar bones in the little=20
> varmits.  They shuck out of their shells very easily and the fat on =
> their=20
> back bastes them as they roast before a fire.  If you ever chase =
> one into a=20
> hole he will grip the sides of the hole like grim death.  To get =
> him out, =20
> grab his tail and goose him in the belly with a ramrod.  He will =
> let got=20
> for a second and you can snatch him out of his hide-out.  Whack him =
> in the=20
> head with the poll of your hawk and let him flop for a minute or=20
> two.    His shell is well known, but his underside is =
> just skin=20
> and is covered with alien looking hairs.....make you pause and think it =
> over=20
> before your put your knife to work.  One word of =
> caution....Armadillos=20
> sometimes carry a variety of leprosy and you shouldn't handle one if you =
> have=20
> open cuts on your hands and he should be cooked "well done".  =
> Experts swear=20
> that the leprosy they sometimes carry (in Louisana mostly) isn't =
> dangerous=20
> to humans but being careful is best.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>I am not making this up.  Really.</DIV>
> <DIV>YMOS</DIV>
> <DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D3>
> <SCRIPT><!--
> function sErr(){return =
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>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_00B3_01BFCA82.06EB33E0--
>
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:35:37 EDT
> From: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virus
>
> WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE LET ME (AND MAYBE THE LIST ALSO WANTS TO KNOW) WHAT
> MAIL THAT 'VIRUS' WAS CONTAINED IN, IF IT WAS AN ATTACHMENT, WHAT KIND,
WHAT
> IT WAS CALLED, ETC.  THANKS. BARNEY
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:44:43 EDT
> From: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men fishing?
>
> Quotes from "A Life Wild and Perilous" by Robert M. Utley:  Discussing
> Robinson, Hoback and Resnor who had departed from the Astorians and made
> winter camp in the vicinity of the Medicine Bows.    Quote " Game
continued
> scarce, with the few fish that could be taken from the streams furnishing
a
> bare subsistance."  Later, "On a hot August 20, John Hoback fished in the
> Snake while his three companioons rested in the willows."
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:07:13 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>
> Ole,
>
> Sounds like you would need a good rig and wagon or a lot of pack animals
for
> all that.  Sounds about right to me.
>
> Jerry #1488
>
____________________________________________________________________________
____
>
> At 04:41 PM 05/30/2000 -0600, you wrote:
> >Jerry,
> >Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was held
up
> >Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it
called
> >Black Smiths Fork?
> >120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
> >Ole # 718
> >----------
> >>From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
> >>To: [e-mail]
> >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
> >>Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
> >>
> >
> >>Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity
stuff
> >>again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
> >>
> >>I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
> >>opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch
Oven,
> >>a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were
there
> >>back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure
some of
> >>it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
> >>submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not be
> >>appropriate in the mountains.
> >>
> >>My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was
> >>there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that
William
> >>Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if everyone
wants
> >>to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon, it
> >>would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
> >>Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
> >>
> >>I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over
the
> >>fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.  I
also
> >>bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my
horse
> >>agrees.
> >>
> >>Just my 2 cents.
> >>
> >>Best Regards,
> >>
> >>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
>>__________________________________________________________________________
> ______
> >>
> >>
> >>>No Sir,
> >>>
> >>>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort
Union
> >>>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
> >>>mountain man period.
> >>>Walt
> >>>Park City, Montana
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
> >>>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>----------------------
> >>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>----------------------
> >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:09:58 -0600
> From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>
> Hello the cooking crew,
>
> Here's an idea.  An anvil is a specialized instrument, and not much else
can
> do the job it does.  A cast iron "dutch oven" doesn't do much more than
the
> kettles and pots that we positively KNOW were out here.
>
> Why would mountain men use cast iron?  What can it do that sheet steel and
> sheet iron kettles can't.  They weren't cooking bread!
>
> Guess I'd like to hear why they'd bring them, then we can calculate if
they did.
> Now if it's just convienient for today's doings that's ok, just say so,
and
> leave it go at that.
>
> Allen
>
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:25:54 -0600
> From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men Fishing
>
> Hello the list,
>
> About fishing, in July of 1837 Osborne Russell talked about fishing at the
> outlet of Jackson's Lake,
>
> "July 4th I caught about 20 very fine salmon trout which together with fat
> mutton buffaloe beef and coffee and the manner in which it was served up
> constituted a dinner that ought to be considered independent even by
Britons".
>
> Page 97, Journal of a Trapper, by Osborne Russell.
>
> Allen
> Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country
>
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:24:24 -0500
> From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch ovens
>
> Think I have read this book before!
> Frank
>
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 06:38:54 -0600
> From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>
> Capt,
> It seems to me that if I were back in those day's I would trade for plews
> more than trap for them, having the local indians do the work wrather then
> having to wade into a frozen stream myself. As most of the traders know,
it
> is hard to antisipate what will sell so you bring a lot of diferent items.
> The question a while back was, why haul cast iron cooking gear to the
> mountains?
> To trade and to use, then use the animals that hauled the trade goods in
to
> haul the pelts out.
> Ole # 718
> - ----------
> >From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >Date: Tue, May 30, 2000, 8:02 PM
> >
>
> >Ole,
> >
> >OK pard, got ya! Way it was worded I was thinking otherwise. I see the
logic
> >in your response below and don't have much trouble seeing that sort of
thing
> >being done either. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. <G> I
> >remain.....
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 5:52 PM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >
> >
> >> Capt"
> >> Not Even!
> >> Just making a statement as to what they would and could have hauled in
on
> >> horse back or by cart.
> >> An anvil would weigh from 60 to 150 pounds and there are journals that
> >> memtion them being hauled into the mountain's. On that note they could
> >have
> >> hauled 20 pots made of cast iron to equal one 120 pound anvil. It's
> >amazing
> >> to me what they hauled in.
> >> If I were traping and trading for beaver I would haul in all sorts of
> >goods
> >> for trade including cast iron.
> >> Ole # 718
> >> ----------
> >> >From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
> >> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >> >Date: Tue, May 30, 2000, 6:14 PM
> >> >
> >>
> >> >Ole,
> >> >
> >> >Mind if I wonder a bit about the thought process here a little? <G> I
> >> >presume that you are suggesting the idea that the anvil was made into
> >cast
> >> >iron pots?
> >> >
> >> >>From what little I know about cast iron foundry work, it is a very
> >> >specialized process that requires not only special equipment in the
form
> >of
> >> >a smelter but also just the right fuels to get the metal to melt and
> >pour,
> >> >etc. not to mention the special sands and molds that would be
required.
> >> >
> >> >I would respectfully submit that such would not have been even
remotely
> >> >possible anywhere west of the Great River during that time. Only
> >supposition
> >> >on my part but I think that is correct. I remain.....
> >> >
> >> >YMOS
> >> >Capt. Lahti'
> >> >----- Original Message -----
> >> >From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
> >> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >> >Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:41 PM
> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Jerry,
> >> >> Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was
held
> >up
> >> >> Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it
> >> >called
> >> >> Black Smiths Fork?
> >> >> 120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
> >> >> Ole # 718
> >> >> ----------
> >> >> >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
> >> >> >To: [e-mail]
> >> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
> >> >> >Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> >Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven
authenticity
> >> >stuff
> >> >> >again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY
my
> >> >> >opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A
Dutch
> >> >Oven,
> >> >> >a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I
were
> >> >there
> >> >> >back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.
Sure
> >some
> >> >of
> >> >> >it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
> >> >> >submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would
not
> >be
> >> >> >appropriate in the mountains.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >My view is, just because you can document something only proves it
was
> >> >> >there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that
> >> >William
> >> >> >Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if
everyone
> >> >wants
> >> >> >to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was
uncommon,
> >it
> >> >> >would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people
at
> >> >> >Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks
over
> >the
> >> >> >fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying
pan.
> >I
> >> >also
> >> >> >bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my
ho
> >rse
> >> >> >agrees.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Just my 2 cents.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Best Regards,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
> >> >>
> >>
>
>>>_________________________________________________________________________
_
> >_
> >> >_____
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>No Sir,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>The facts have already been established once and for all by the
Fort
> >> >Union
> >> >> >>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in
the
> >> >> >>mountain man period.
> >> >> >>Walt
> >> >> >>Park City, Montana
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
> >> >> >>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Tom
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>----------------------
> >> >> >>hist_text list info:
> >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >----------------------
> >> >> >hist_text list info:
> >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ----------------------
> >> >> hist_text list info:
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> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >----------------------
> >> >hist_text list info:
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> >> >
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
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> >
>
> - ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of hist_text-digest V1 #568
> *******************************
>
> -
>  To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
> "[e-mail]"
>  with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wyoming State Museum Discovery Trunk
Date: 07 Jun 2000 13:29:12 EDT

Walt, and good day to you.

I haven't downloaded or printed the information compiled by the Wyoming
Museum.  I have skimmed the Mountain Man Discovery Trunk.

Did you, too, find it interesting that under the Mountain Man's "outfit,"
that

(1) in his moccasins he stuffed white ash leaves as a rattlesnake repellent,
(2)  in his pouchy shirtfront he stored bread and johnnycakes, and
(3)  he carried a waterproof deer bladder to keep his gun's lock dry

Just goes to show, friends, you can be a part of this list for years and not
have heard it all.

Dick Summers

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls]]
Date: 07 Jun 2000 15:01:59 EDT

Am I mistaken, but couldn't a lot of running around looking for chemicals be
avoided here as just using some iron filings would make for a good mordant?

Longshot

"Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage"
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls]]
Date: 07 Jun 2000 15:40:26 EDT

> Am I mistaken, but couldn't a lot of running around looking for chemicals
be
>  avoided here as just using some iron filings would make for a good mordant?

Actually, it's easier than that.  Walnut hull dye is supposed to be
self-mordanting.....hence, nothing else is required.


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From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls
Date: 07 Jun 2000 16:32:47 -0400

>Actually, it's easier than that.  Walnut hull dye is supposed to be
>self-mordanting.....hence, nothing else is required.

Amen.

From 1669, as quoted by Adrosko in "Natural Dyes and Home Dyeing," 1971:
"Shreds of stuff made by the English planters of cotton and wool, put up to
shew the colour, which was only dyed with the bark of a kind of
walnut-tree, called by the planters the butter-nut-tree,the kernel of that
sort of walnut being very oily, whence they are called butter-nuts. They
dyed it only with the decoction of that bark, without allum or copperas, as
they said."

Adrosko also says, "Thomas Cooper, in 1815, stated that usually the green
hulls or rinds of the walnut were used for dyeing browns. The roots' inner
bark--sometimes referred to as walnut bark--was also used, even though it
was less potent than the rind. Since no mordants were needed for walnut and
butternut dyeing, the vegetable material could be boiled for a certain
period and the wetted cloth dipped until the desired color had been
achieved."

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Louisville, KY
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject)
Date: 07 Jun 2000 18:43:05 EDT

Hey, here's a link to a site on the first fort on the Missouri before Osage

Rick Petzoldt

http://www.newstribune.com/stories/060200/sta_0602000035.asp

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From: "Wefarmasmidgen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Walnut hull mordant
Date: 07 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500

For wool and leather, it has been my experience that walnut hulls (not
shells) need no additional mordant to obtain and maintain color; the depth
of the color depends on the amount of hulls used as well as the time hulls
are cooked.   I don't know about cotton as I've never tried it on cotton.
Protein fibers (animals) take dyes differently from bast (plant) fibers.
Boil the hulls until you get the color desired and then strain off the
liquid.  Put the material in the hot liquid and "cook" it for a time at
about 180 degrees.  Your material will be darker when wet than when dry.  If
it is not dark enough the first time, repeat the process.

Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen
in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin
[e-mail]




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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: More on Beaver
Date: 07 Jun 2000 22:47:36 -0400 (EDT)

Detroit Free Press, Wed., 06-07-00, p.5A.

"DON'T MESS WITH THE BEAV:"

"Sam[antha] Pshyshlak said Tuesday that her really big Newfoundland dogs
Bonnie and Billy were attacked by one really angry beaver, pinning them
against a fence.

"I never thought beavers were capable of that, Pshyshlak said from her
Manitoba farm 60 miles north of Winnipeg.  I've lost all respect for
beavers."

"Pshyshlak said the animal that attacked her dogs weighed about 30
pounds.  Her dogs weigh 200 pounds each."


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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More on Beaver
Date: 07 Jun 2000 22:56:00 -0700

LOST RESPECT??????   a 30# beaver cowing two 200# dogs....this earns my
respect....GO BEAVERS!!!!     hardtack

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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More on Beaver
Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:38:46 -0500 (CDT)

On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:56:00 -0700, Randal J Bublitz wrote:

>LOST RESPECT??????   a 30# beaver cowing two 200# dogs....this earns
my
>respect....GO BEAVERS!!!!     hardtack

Amen!  Our neighbor has a 120lb german shepherd that chases everything
smaller than it is.  Has terrorized the area for years.  Last fall the dog
chased and cornered a beaver down the hill from us at the river.  Took over
200 stitches to close up the slashes on the muzzel and ears of that dog.
Dog refuses to go down to the river now...

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp


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From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #568
Date: 08 Jun 2000 16:13:27 -0500



> Does anyone know where I can buy an approximately 10 x 8 foot used tent
> suitable for rendezvous?
> Or I would like plans to make my own tent.  What type of material is most
> authentic?
> PS What are the best types of wood, available in Minnesota, for starting
> fires with friction? (I tried willow for the stick and Basswood? for the
> fireboard with no luck.)
>
> Thank you, Abe
>
Well Abe, the best thing I can tell you about buying used tents is to look
around
at some of the bigger events.  A short wall, 18"-24",walls 9' X 9' square
works
out well, is easy to put up by one's self, and is period correct for most
time periods
while providing plenty of room for a couple of people and gear.

Friction fires hmmmm, lots of work to learn, but a reliable method when
mastered.
Check out the book Northern Bushcraft by Mors Kochanski. Good book on all
sorts
of skills.


Here are a couple of messages from another list that might explain a few of
the workings
of the bowdrill.

1. First after having started the hole and notch flatten off the busy
end of the spindle (part facing down) and then shave some off on the
sides at the bottom of the spindle so that there is no side wall
pressure.  This one thing will work wonders.  It has to do with the idea
that the outside ring of the spindle is what is really in contact with
the fireboard and is the real creator of the coal.

2. Start pumping slowly at first and then faster and when you have had
some smoke coming out for a little while push down a little harder and
pump hard for 20-30 strokes. Stop now and look down in the notch there
should be some darkish colored powder and maybe some smoke coming out of
it.  Take a breath and now slowly and gently blow on the coal until it
glows red or orange. Now you can put it in your tinder bundle. (I like
to keep a piece of cardboard of bark under the notch and then transfer
the coal to the tinder by that way because you won't crush the tinder in
the process or get it wrapped up in the spindle.

One other tip is to make more of a U shaped notch than a V because it
gives the coal more room to collect and grow. Once again, I'll say some
time its the little things that make huge differences.  You may be
surprised.  Sometimes it is also your choice of wood.  Make sure you do
the finger nail test


I recently saw Mark Morey of the recently mentioned Deep Wilds school
actually
drill out (with the point of his knife) a conical depression in the bottom
of
his fire spindle.  His explanation was basically the same as yours, but I
have found that the improvement lasts longer than merely flattening the end
because, as it wears away,  the end of the spindle does not become bluntly
rounded as quickly.

> Does any one know any good hand socket lubricants for a bow drill fire
> starter?  I know various animal bi-products can be used, but is there
> any thing else, like from plants?

In a real pinch, you can use a leaf for lubrication.  Some will tell
you it can't (or shouldn't) be done, because the moisture causes the
wood to swell.  Try it.  I have and it works, although (in my experience)
it won't work very long before it grinds away (but with good form and
sets, you shouldn't need all that long).  I've had better luck with
less porous woods and harder, denser leaves like holly.

Pine pitch has worked fairly well for me, at least with harder wood
sockets.  It seems to soak into cedar as it heats up and lose its
effectiveness.

Never tried raw fat or tallow, but I'd think that would work as well.

Once on a whim I packed the socket with a pinch of some very fine
talc-like dust (it made me think of graphite powder) which seemed to
work somewhat.  Tried it again another time, another place, and that
dust, although it seemed similar, really caused a lot of drag.  Last
weekend I came across some deposits of coal near a river... wish I
had thought of it then, but maybe that could be ground up fine and
used as a lube.  How about soapstone dust?

I've never used bone, but I have a naturally shaped quartzite cobble
that is shaped perfectly for a ready-made low-friction socket (no
lubrication required), and I have a bashed piece of some stone that
may be chert (or something similar) that is shaped sort of like an
orange wedge; the sharp edge serves to abrade the notch while a pit
pecked into the side lets it double as the socket as well.

Any green leaf can be used.  However you are best to use leaves that are
waxy in appearance such as holly, sycamore, thistle etc.

>I haven't yet gotten a fire with my sugar maple bow drill set, but I've
> only worked on it a couple times. I got lots of smoke and filled the
> notch about halfway with dust before my handhold started catching( I was
> just using nose grease and earwax). The dust was hard, not at all soft,
> almost like charcoal. I thought this was cool, cuz the cedar dust is so
> soft.

What is the consistency of the dust in terms of individual grains? Is it
fiberous?
Plate like? Or very small grained like cedar? This makes a difference from
the
standpoint of what kind of pressure and other technique variables you use to
actually get the dust to light and stay lit. If Sugar Maple is anything like
Red
Maple it's important to back off on the pressure, increase the speed for
awhile
and try to get some smaller grained dust to come off that will stay lit. I
don't
know. It's just a suggestion.

My favorite material for bowdrill sets are tree roots, especially
cottonwood roots, but other roots work well too.  You can get spoiled
quickly working with the roots; it is pretty hard to go wrong with them.
I'm sure the roots would work well for the fire plow too.

Check the driftwood piles along the rivers.  That is the best source for
root materials.

Sorry for the long post. Due to the rash of virus's floating around, I
preferred to not send this as an attachment.
J.D.





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 08 Jun 2000 21:07:59 -0600

Hello the list,

Does anyone have experience with wedge tents?  I've been thinking about
getting one.

I'm interested in sizes, bell back or no, one door or openinging both ends,
handsewn grommet holes or no hole in the top, etc, etch.

Looking forward to your replies,

Allen Hall in Fort Hall Country


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 08 Jun 2000 22:26:36 -0500

Allen
I have had several and sold them all.    I found them have good floor =
space,but not enough headroom except right under the ridge pole.  I had =
one that was truly huge and still found it confining.  I realize that I =
am a very large person, but others said the same thing.  I would not =
have another except for a pack in shelter with just enough room to sit =
up in.  They are very easy to set up, however.
YMOS
Lanney


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 08 Jun 2000 23:36:07 -0400

I have the Panther Giant Bell Wedge... and found it to suffice. Lots of
floor space, good height (I am 6'4"), BUT... the one drawback was not alot
of "wall" space for storage.  The "bell" had considerable storage area
available. Used it for weekend and up to 4 day events. Liked it ok, but my
12x14 wall was great :)

Ad Miller


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mark Clodi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 08 Jun 2000 22:44:47 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BFD19B.25A6FCE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple 7x7x7 footers, with doors in both ends. They set up =
incredibly easy and do not require much in the way of ropes/poles.  =
Before this I used a huge tipi, of course there is no comparison of head =
room/space between the two types. HOWEVER, I must say being able to pack =
up a wedge tent and poles into a small package really is more of a =
benefit (right now) than having the space.  For a longer camp I think =
the hassle of a tipi is worth it, for a weekend the wedge tents rule and =
right now I do a lot more camping on the weekends than for a week at a =
shot.=20

The really good part about the way things are working now is that =
eventually I WILL want to lug the tipi to all the camps and having a =
spare wedge which I can set up to hold 'visitors', gear or as a kind of =
fly will be really nice.

Mark
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Allen Hall=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 8:07 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents


  Hello the list,

  Does anyone have experience with wedge tents?  I've been thinking =
about
  getting one.

  I'm interested in sizes, bell back or no, one door or openinging both =
ends,
  handsewn grommet holes or no hole in the top, etc, etch.

  Looking forward to your replies,

  Allen Hall in Fort Hall Country


  ----------------------
  hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BFD19B.25A6FCE0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Helvetica 55 Roman" size=3D2>I have a couple 7x7x7 =
footers, with=20
doors in both ends. They set up incredibly easy and do not require much =
in the=20
way of ropes/poles.  Before this I used a huge tipi, of course =
there is no=20
comparison of head room/space between the two types. HOWEVER, I must say =
being=20
able to pack up a wedge tent and poles into a small package really is =
more of a=20
benefit (right now) than having the space.  For a longer camp I =
think the=20
hassle of a tipi is worth it, for a weekend the wedge tents rule and =
right now I=20
do a lot more camping on the weekends than for a week at a=20
shot. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Helvetica 55 Roman" size=3D2>The really good part =
about the way=20
things are working now is that eventually I WILL want to lug the tipi to =
all the=20
camps and having a spare wedge which I can set up to hold 'visitors', =
gear or as=20
a kind of fly will be really nice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Helvetica 55 Roman" size=3D2>Mark</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" title=[e-mail]>Allen =
Hall</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 08, 2000 =
8:07=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Wedge =
Tents</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Hello the list,<BR><BR>Does anyone have experience with =
wedge=20
  tents?  I've been thinking about<BR>getting one.<BR><BR>I'm =
interested in=20
  sizes, bell back or no, one door or openinging both ends,<BR>handsewn =
grommet=20
  holes or no hole in the top, etc, etch.<BR><BR>Looking forward to your =

  replies,<BR><BR>Allen Hall in Fort Hall=20
  Country<BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BFD19B.25A6FCE0--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 08 Jun 2000 23:57:59 EDT

IMHO double-doors on any lodge, whether wedge, wall or pyramid are a great
thing to have on hot days..... not to mention the 'back' one can provide a
good escape route, night porthole, secluded access for a 'soiled-dove', etc
<EG>   Barney

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #568
Date: 08 Jun 2000 21:59:37 -0600

I have a 10x12 that has a hole burned in the top where the stove pipe
went through. will sell for $100 plus shipping

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 08 Jun 2000 22:35:44 -0700

Started off life in the mountains in a 16' RK that has served me well from
back around 1975-6 to just a few years ago. I got tired of setting it up for
just a weekend and got a 10X10 wedge with double doors and 7' ridge. It has
an 8' dinning fly out the front and a floor piece. It is more than enough
for the wifemate and myself. We don't take that much stuff even to a week
long drive and dump. I cut a hole in it and put the requisite liner for a
stove pipe and have used it a few times hunting. The tent has proven to be a
godsend for an old timer like me. Sets up real quick in the rain. I like it
for the unquestioned authenticity for the RMFT time period and before and
though a wall tent would be more roomy, it would also be more of  a hassle
putting up and not look as right. I am thinking of having Fred Wright build
me a bell to put on the back or not as the case might warrant. I think an
extra fly to go over the tent would make it much more serviceable in warm
and cold weather. I have grommets at both ends for pole spikes to go up
through and had RK make it so that I could also run an extra long lodge pole
through the gable ends (to be supported by cross bucks at both ends if I
didn't have the ready cut tent poles with me.

I like my wedge tent just fine. Capt. L
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 8:07 PM


> Hello the list,
>
> Does anyone have experience with wedge tents?  I've been thinking about
> getting one.
>
> I'm interested in sizes, bell back or no, one door or openinging both
ends,
> handsewn grommet holes or no hole in the top, etc, etch.
>
> Looking forward to your replies,
>
> Allen Hall in Fort Hall Country
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 09 Jun 2000 01:51:52 EDT

What are the opinions on the historical accuracy of a pyramid tent (sometimes
called a "tepee tent" by oldtimers)?

I know that they've documented Parkman with one on the Plains in the 1840s,
though I haven't seen any documentation for their presence earlier.

The one I've got is a Panther Primitives 12x12 (probably too big for
accuracy, but good for elk camp.)  Would the purists among your number sneer
at such a set-up?

John R Sweet

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 09 Jun 2000 08:52:02 -0400

  I also have two tipis and a French wedge of about 7x7x12 and love it.  Mostly
for weekends when the tipis are too much and with my tipi for storing of gear
and others.  Mine has a bell which is great for storage.  I do use a small wood
bed which cuts the bell in half for the walk way, but does give me under
storage for gear.

Linda Holley


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 09 Jun 2000 07:03:28 -0600

Allen,
I will bring a Catalog with me to the fish camp, Tent Smith has allowed me
to be there rep. in the area, and they make about 20 diferent style's of
wedge tents.
Ole # 718
----------
>From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
>Date: Thu, Jun 8, 2000, 9:07 PM
>

>Hello the list,
>
>Does anyone have experience with wedge tents?  I've been thinking about
>getting one.
>
>I'm interested in sizes, bell back or no, one door or openinging both ends,
>handsewn grommet holes or no hole in the top, etc, etch.
>
>Looking forward to your replies,
>
>Allen Hall in Fort Hall Country
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 09 Jun 2000 07:25:30 -0600

John,
I have been told that the "Pyramid" tent was originaly called the "Miners
tent" due to it's use during the california gold rush. I was also told that
it does not go back any further than 1840 which would be late rendezvous
period. Having said that I have no evidence one way or the other and would
also like to know. However having looked at drawings made by Catlin and
Miller I have seen Tipi's, wedge tents, wall tent's, and what looks to be a
lean to. I have been using a conical tent made by tentsmith which goes back
to the the french military in 1753, the conical is a true one pole tent. For
park and drops I use a  15'X24' slant wall Marquee which takes about the
same effort as putting up a lodge but has 2 poles which are 12' long instead
of 30'+, it gives me the same room as 2=20' lodges. Hey for a dog and pony
show, might as well have a circus tent.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
>Date: Thu, Jun 8, 2000, 11:51 PM
>

>What are the opinions on the historical accuracy of a pyramid tent (sometimes
>called a "tepee tent" by oldtimers)?
>
>I know that they've documented Parkman with one on the Plains in the 1840s,
>though I haven't seen any documentation for their presence earlier.
>
>The one I've got is a Panther Primitives 12x12 (probably too big for
>accuracy, but good for elk camp.)  Would the purists among your number sneer
>at such a set-up?
>
>John R Sweet
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM e-mail addresses
Date: 09 Jun 2000 07:41:07 -0600

Gentelmen,
I am curently working on putting together a Data-base which would have all
the members names and addresses.
If you are curently on the list please contact me off the list at
[e-mail]
and send me the following information.
Name
address
amm number
E-mail address
phone no:
The information will remain confidential and will only be used in putting
together the history of the AMM.
YMOS
Ole # 718

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 09 Jun 2000 08:34:44 -0700

The purists among us would sneer at anything!
Most rendezvous allow the pyramid tent.  It looks correct and is certainly
easy to set up.  The "baker" and Whalen configurations are other tents that
are suspect to the narrow historical era of the Mountain Man period.
Certain forts that depict dates earlier than 1840 do not currently allow the
pyramid tent at gatherings on their property in connection with fort
activities.  The rule of thumb for these museums and living history centers
is two documented pieces of evidence for admission and use.  You have to
decide for yourself how much you intend to follow museum standards.

Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 10:51 PM


> What are the opinions on the historical accuracy of a pyramid tent
(sometimes
> called a "tepee tent" by oldtimers)?
>
> I know that they've documented Parkman with one on the Plains in the
1840s,
> though I haven't seen any documentation for their presence earlier.
>
> The one I've got is a Panther Primitives 12x12 (probably too big for
> accuracy, but good for elk camp.)  Would the purists among your number
sneer
> at such a set-up?
>
> John R Sweet
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 09 Jun 2000 08:52:13 -0700

Allen,
    My first tent was a wedge tent.  I bought it many years ago and I still
use it today at public rendezvous.  It is a British infantry tent of the
revolutionary war period and it has a bell in back with 7ft headroom. I
bought it when I applied to attend an activity at Fort Snelling in
Minnesota.  At the time, only wedge and wall tents were allowed and they
were discouraged.  They expected voyagers to sleep under their canoes.  An
interesting note was that tipis were limited to 10 ft. in diameter and only
for those depicting Aboriginal Americans.  The Dakota of the region relied
on permanent villages of logs most of the year and carried their tipis by
canoe when they traveled.  Large lodges were rare except for the council
lodge.
The wedge is very comfy for one guy and his gear.  My daughter and her
teenage girlfriends used to occupy one of these when they accompanied my
wife and I on outings.  It fit them very well...but then they giggled and
talked all night and slept all morning!  Remember, THREE soldiers slept in
these things. It can be set up easily and quickly by one guy and if you are
attending an event where the visiting public wanders through camp at will,
the enclosed nature of the tent discourages exploration of your gear.  Those
tourists just love souvenirs!

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 8:07 PM


> Hello the list,
>
> Does anyone have experience with wedge tents?  I've been thinking about
> getting one.
>
> I'm interested in sizes, bell back or no, one door or openinging both
ends,
> handsewn grommet holes or no hole in the top, etc, etch.
>
> Looking forward to your replies,
>
> Allen Hall in Fort Hall Country
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 09 Jun 2000 12:21:46 -0400

I also have a small bell wedge that I use primarily as a "storage" tent when
Mouse and I go to the larger, extended stay Ronnys (longer than 5 days).
However, when I do weekend (read 2-4 day events) by myself, I take the
wedge. It sets up with 3, 2" round poles, about 12 stakes, and no ropes, has
almost 7' head room (I am 6'4", so that is nice), a small bell on the back,
and I can set it up in 15 minutes by myself.  I can get my gear and sleeping
stuff in it no problem. I think it measures about 10' long (including
wedge), and about 6' or so wide. Plenty of room for just me.

All depends on what you are looking for, and for how many people and how
much gear...

Ad Miller


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedge Tents
Date: 09 Jun 2000 09:28:35 -0700

John,

I guess you have received enough info now to tell you that pyramid tents
really don't go back far enough to be accurate for a pre-1840 event. At
least that's how I read the info given and that is my "opinion" too. Now
that doesn't mean that you can't use one. There are plenty of events that
won't call you on it. But if your concerned about being authentic and
correct for a particular time period, the thing to do is research it and be
sure of your ground.

As to purists turning up their nose's, my buddy Crawdad and I were dang
proud to be able to borrow one to sleep in at the "Pacific Primitive"  last
year during our rainy one night stay, while on our way to the AMM Western in
Wyoming. <G> I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: The Origin of Oxblood.......
Date: 09 Jun 2000 18:06:07 EDT

People are always asking what is a period correct way to waterproof their
tarps. I just scanned a book entitled, "The Homestead Builder" by C.P. Dwyer.
 This was a followup book to his other. "The Cottage Builder" first published
in 1850.  Dwyer was an architect who actually went into the frontier to study
various types of homes which were being built by those going west.  He
published this info as a primer for use by future homesteaders.

This little chapter caught my eye.  It has to do with making blood cement for
a hearth for a fireplace, but its content is expanded into several other
usages.

"Procure, at a butcher's, a quantity of bullock's blood, and with one-tenth
of its weight of quicklime reduced to powder by sprinking water on it; mix up
the mass, which may be thinned if necessary by the addition of water.

It must be borne in mind that it is the albumen, or gelatin, of the blood
which is to be used.  The fibrin, or clot, is to be thrown out.

If mixed with sand and plastered over a base, it will make a blood cement
which will harden to an impervious layer and which will take a high polish.
It can also be used to line a chimney, floor a cellar, or line a cistern,
amking them impervious to vermin, and waterproof and hard.

Without the sand, it can be rubbed inro rough canvas giving an article
roughly equal to oilcloth, at a trifling of the expense.  It will only be
necessary to stretch the canvas tight on a frame and rub the composition well
into the cloth until the texture becomes invisible.

As a waterproof cover for the wagon, or as a cloak for the man, it will alike
make its utility felt.

Although bullock's blood is undoubtedly the best, yet any animal blood will
be found to an extent useful for the purpose, according to the muscular
development of the animal."

"The Homestead Builder"  C.P. Dwyer, Lyons Press reprint, ISBN #1-55821-728-2
Its main focus is the building of prairie homes by various means of
construction from materials available on a 1/2 section anywhere on the
frontier.

Dave Kanger

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From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Skunked !!!
Date: 09 Jun 2000 19:19:06 -0700 (PDT)


A question about this was on the list awhile back.
 Just found this and thought I would pass it on.
grn
>
>       Skunk Encounters and Solutions
>
>
>       if ...your dog has visited a skunk and has the
> smell to prove it, the best thing is to take care of
> the smell as soon as possible. Always take time
>       when cleaning the dog and bathing to inspect
> for bites. If your dog is not vaccinated against
> rabies he should be, if there is a bite or wound
>       your dogs injury should be evaluated by the
> vet. they may choose to re- vaccinate. Also be very
> careful, you could be at risk to contract rabies
>       f your dog was bitten by a rabid skunk and his
> saliva entered your blood stream.
>       Wear gloves latex and work wear both, when
> handling the perfumed pooch.
>       Solution ideas...Wash your dog with his
> regular shampoo first:
>       then mix two pints of hydrogen peroxide, a
> quarter cup of baking soda and two teaspoons of dish
> soap. Work well
>       into coat, rinse his coat extremely well.
> repeat with new batch of solution as many times
> until smell has dissipated.
>       Wash your dogs eyes with saline solution. Use
> solutions available for contacts.
>       If the dog's eyes continue to be irritated,
> blurred or your dog is having problems with
>       vision- a vet visit is necessary.
>
>

=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

__________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: references to Lewis and Clark journals
Date: 09 Jun 2000 23:51:21 EDT

Mr. Allen,

 Thanks so much for taking the time to consider my question.  It is certainly
 intriguing.  Here's some of what I've found so far:  Stephen Long, also a
 military expedition, seems to have the journals with him.  Not mountain men,
 but certainly headed into new areas.  Wilson P. Hunt wrote a letter to his
 brother that james Ronda wrote an article about in the Filson Club Historical
 Quarterly back in 1988.  You may be familiar with that.  Hunt quotes specific
 info that he apparently gleaned directly from Lewis.  Gabriel Franchere also
 makes mention of the journals.  Warren Ferris frequently says (paraphrased)
 "we are on the exact spot where Mr. Lewis did such and such."  Ferris must
 have had the journals or an awful good memory.

 Then there's David Thompson; (this all comes from Jack Nisbet's biography of
 Thompson, _Sources of the River_, Sasquatch Books: Seattle, 1994)

 "On Dec. 11 [1807], he [Thompson] noted that he had 'Transcribed Capn
 Lewis's account of his journey to the Pacific Ocean.' This account was
 actually a long letter written by Meriwether Lewis about his expedition to
 the Pacific. Finan Macdonald must have brought it back from the
 Saskatchewan on his supply run, but no one has ever discovered how it fell
 into the hands of the North West Company. Wherever it came from, Lewis'
 letter provided information of great interest to Thompson, including a
 summary of Lewis and Clark's route up the Missouri River, across the
 Rockies, and down to the Pacific. From the account Thompson would have
 learned that the lower Columbia beyond the mouth of the Snake River was
 navigable." (Nisbet, 106) Thompson was at Kootenae House at this time.

 In June 1810, Alexander Henry the Yonger was Thompson's host at New White
 Mud House (near modern Edmonton, Alberta). Henry had Gass' journal of Lewis
 & Clark's expedition, & likely showed or loaned it to Thompson. Thompson
 made some notes from this which he took with him down the Columbia in 1811.
 (Nisbet 165, 202, 234)

 But the item of most interest and most pertinent to the question iswriten by
 Duncan Finlayson in the Edmonton House Journal.  This is taken from Morgan,
 The West of William H. Ashley, p. 44, but Morgan quoted it from A.P.
 Nasatir, "The International Significance of the Jones & Immell Massacre and
 the Aricara Outbreak of 1823," Pacific Northest Quarterly 30 (1939): 77-108.

 March 16, 1824
 "Mess [Patrick] Small & [George] Deschambault finished trading with the
 Blood Indians--they brought principally Beavers & Robes--They have brought
 us some more trophies of their victory over the unfortunate Americans with
 whom they fought last Summer, such as Rifles, the first Volume of the
 Arabian Nights, Lewis & Clarke's travels in two Volumes, and a small quarto
 marble covered book . . ."

 This is likely in reference to the men killed during the Immell and Jones
 massacre, but Henry was also hit by the Blackfeet during this time.  Either
 way, they were American trappers carrying the journals with them into the
 mountains.

 Anyway, I've rambled.  The search goes on and I appreciate your input!

 Jim Hardee

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: references to Lewis and Clark journals
Date: 10 Jun 2000 12:15:52 -0600



On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana

Do you know the location of the Immell and Jones "massacre"?

 But the item of most interest and most pertinent to the question iswriten
by
 Duncan Finlayson in the Edmonton House Journal.  This is taken from Morgan,
 The West of William H. Ashley, p. 44, but Morgan quoted it from A.P.
 Nasatir, "The International Significance of the Jones & Immell Massacre and
 the Aricara Outbreak of 1823," Pacific Northest Quarterly 30 (1939):
77-108.

 March 16, 1824
 "Mess [Patrick] Small & [George] Deschambault finished trading with the
 Blood Indians--they brought principally Beavers & Robes--They have brought
 us some more trophies of their victory over the unfortunate Americans with
 whom they fought last Summer, such as Rifles, the first Volume of the
 Arabian Nights, Lewis & Clarke's travels in two Volumes, and a small quarto
 marble covered book . . ."

 This is likely in reference to the men killed during the Immell and Jones
 massacre, but Henry was also hit by the Blackfeet during this time.  Either
 way, they were American trappers carrying the journals with them into the
 mountains.

 Anyway, I've rambled.  The search goes on and I appreciate your input!

 Jim Hardee

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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 10 Jun 2000 16:25:22 -0400

Anyone have suggestions on reshaping a tired old hat which
has sagged to funnel shape, or should I just break down and
replace it?

Tom


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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thanks for the help
Date: 11 Jun 2000 01:04:39 -0500

A year or so back I asked the list for help in finding a particular book
and several folks offered suggestions.   I would like to thank them
collectively for their assistance.

I can now report that I have finally found a copy, which has some wonderful
stuff in it, which has raised a new question as one item I remembered being
depicted in it -- isn't there -- so there is now another book I'm looking
for without a clue.

The one I finally found is:
Joseph Smith Explanation or Key to the Various Manufactories of Sheffield.

It is a 1975 EAIA reprint of the original 1816.  It is a book of engravings
of all kinds of hardware made in Sheffield at the time.

It was a publication used for ordering and stocking stores, trading posts,
forts and factories, et al, with the products of Sheffield.  Letters are
included between Smith (the engraver) and Peter Stubbs (one of the tool
makers) who's work was pictured but not individually identified, amongst
other correspondence.  The work was prepared from the Sheffield Library
copy and compared to the WInterthur edition.  It includes a reproduction of
the order for the printing of 50 copies signed by Joseph Smith.

It includes some prices on a partial list from a few years later.  The
price listings are thought to be from between 1825 and 1841.  The price
list in the Sheffield copy corresponds to some prices which are handwritten
in the Winterthur copy.

Knives, hammers, files, hoes, machetes, shovels, scissors and shears, drill
bits, bill hooks, axes, knives of wide profusion, plane irons, chisels,
saws, the tools that built the tools that built the industrial revolution.

The abundant variety of pocket knives is one of the more surprising
finds.   There are many styles of multi-blade and combination tools pictured.

There are two Slot Knives shown.  One is the knife and fork that slip apart
to form individual tools.  Also shown is the alternate version where a
spoon opens opposite the fork end.

I'm equally surprised at what's not shown in fine saws, block knives and a
few other notable exclusions of tools I've seen, used and owned that were
made in Sheffield back then.  Maybe not everyone contributed to the
engravers upkeep?  Not a certainty as at least one tool that comes to mind
was made by Peter Stubbs before and long after 1816.  A very interesting book.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
john [e-mail]


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: references to Lewis and Clark journals
Date: 11 Jun 2000 20:51:17 EDT

Walt,

According to John Sunder in "Joshua Pilcher, Fur Trader and Indain Agent,"
(University of Oklahoma Press, Norman, 1968, p. 40) the massacre occurred on
May 31, 1823.  Immel and Jones had camped with a party of about 38 Blackfeet
while on the Jefferson River, in the three Forks area.  Immel and Jones
didn't trust them and the next morning, they made haste for a post previously
established on the Yellowstone River at the mouth of the Bighorn.  Several
days later, in a ravine, along a narrow trail, near Pryor's Fork the trappers
were ambushed.  Survivors fled across the Yellowstone to the safety of a Crow
village.

That's the best I can do for you but you might also try to locate a copy of
the Pacific Northwest Quarterly, Vol. XXX (Jan. 1939) which contains an
article by A.P. Nasatir titled "The International Significance of the Jones
and Immel Massacre and of the Aricara Outbreak of 1823."  That article my
provide a more exact location.

Jim Hardee
P.O. box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

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From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 12 Jun 2000 10:24:32 -0700

Gee, a lot of people would value that "tired old hat" as a memento of much
time in the sun and rain. My hat is the first thing I bought and has
outlasted several outfits, many outings, and a few wrecks. However, the felt
can be reshaped with heat and moisture, which will soften the glue holding
the fibers. You may need to improvise something in the shape of your head to
hold the crown steady while you flatten the brim (hatmakers have an
adjustable device for this purpose). Presumably it will tend to return to
the funnel shape after more hard use. This must have been a fact of life in
the old days too. Best of luck
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:25 PM


Anyone have suggestions on reshaping a tired old hat which
has sagged to funnel shape, or should I just break down and
replace it?

Tom


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From: mitch post <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Digest #574-Re:hats
Date: 12 Jun 2000 11:07:15 -0700 (PDT)

Warning-Shameless advertisment!! In response to
questions on rebuilding/refurbishing old hats-I
rebuild hats,sell new hats-felt and palm-leaf,& sell
"recylced" hats. Contact me off-list if interested. I
will attempt to rebuild hats most other shops turn
away. Thanks in advance,Mitch Post Hiparoo Hats
[e-mail]

=====
"RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL"

__________________________________________________
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From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 12 Jun 2000 17:46:57 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:

>Anyone have suggestions on reshaping a tired old hat which
>has sagged to funnel shape, or should I just break down and
>replace it?

No need to reshape it.  That is an authentic and realistic shape.
Alfred Jacob Miller drew hats exactly like that.  Some portraits had
felt hats that were their "new shape", but most of the drawings of felt
hats on mountaineers in camp, on the trail, or hunting had the
"hillbilly" shape.  That is the way they naturally get after getting wet
several times when you have no blocks or irons to reblock them.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: re:  Skunked
Date: 12 Jun 2000 20:03:19 EDT

Not to sure why you would go to all that trouble.  I always kept about a 1/2
dozen quart size cans of tomato juice handy.  Works wonders!  All you have to
do is to work the tomato juice into the fur then wash it out.  Worked great
every time my mixed breed came back all happy with herself...

Cheers,

Joe Kerley




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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Artifact, etc.
Date: 12 Jun 2000 21:18:14 -0400 (EDT)

Detroit Free Press, Mon. 06-12-00, pp.1C,2C.  Articles by Patricia
Chargot for "Yak's Corner".

The World of Lewis & Clark at The Gerald R. Ford Museum in Grand Rapids.
display thru Oct.29.

a wooden bowl carved into the shape of a beaver that once held whale
oil.  hasn't been used since 1806 - still leaches whale oil.

article on Peyton C. "Bud" Clark, 55, who is the
great-great-great-grandson of William Clark.  family left St.Louis in
the late [19]50's. now lives in Dearborn, Mich. accompanying b&w photo
of him in brain-tanned shirt with fringe using a sextant.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: wagons
Date: 13 Jun 2000 18:17:17 -0700 (PDT)

anyone out here know if the had wagons at any of the rondevous?

=====


      Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert



__________________________________________________
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http://photos.yahoo.com

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wagons & RDV
Date: 13 Jun 2000 21:41:22 -0500

The following information can be found in Rocky Mountain Rendezvous by =
Fred Gowans.

Dr Frederick A. Wislizenus was a German physician who accompanied the =
1839 caravan sent to the mountains by Pierre Chouteau.  Part of his =
journal follows:
"Our caravan was small.  It consisted of only twenty-seven persons.  =
Nine of them were in the service of the Fur Company of St Louis =
(Chouteau, Pratte, & Co), and were to bring the merchandise to the =
yearly rendezvous on the Green River.  Their leader was Mr Harris, a =
mountaineer without special education, but with five sound sences (sic), =
that he well know how to use.  All the rest joined the expedition as =
individuals.  Among them were three missionaries, two of them =
accompanied by their wives, whom a christian zeal for converting the =
heathen urged to the Columbia...The majority of the party were =
Americans; the rest consisted of French Canadians, a few Germans, and a =
Dane.  The Fur Company transported its goods on two-wheeled carts, of =
whic there were four, each drawn by two mules, and loaded with 800 to =
900 pounds.  The rest put their p[acks on mules or horses, of which =
there were fifty to sixty in the caravan."

Osborne Russell said the following about the 1838 rendezvous at the =
forks of the Wind River:

"....There we found Mr Dripps from St Louis with 20 horse carts loaded =
with Supplies....

In 1837 the supply train under the direction of Thomas Fitzpatrick  had =
30 wagons and two carts.  This is the rendezvous where Bridger got his =
suit of armor.

Of the 1836 rendezvous Narcissa Whitman wrote the following in her =
journal:

The Fur Com. is large this year.  We are really a moving village--nearly =
four hundred animals with ours, mostly mules and seventy men.  The Fur =
Com. has seven wagons and one cart, drawn by six mules each, heavily =
loaded; the cart drawn by tow mules carries a lame man (Milton Sublette) =
one of the proprieters of teh Com.  We have two waggons in our =
company........"

In 1835 Marcus Whitman wrote:

"August 1st left the fort (Ft William) for rendezous with pack animals =
only, the company having left their wagon at the fort

A quick review of Gowan's book reveals only mentions of pack animals at =
earlier rendezvous.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wagons
Date: 14 Jun 2000 00:21:33 EDT

The first wagons were taken to rendezvous in 1830 by "william Sublette of the
Smith, Jackson and Sublette Fur Company.  Sublette took ten wagons, sturdily
built to withstand Indain attack and capable of carrying heavy merchandise.
The wagons were purchased from Joseph Murphy, a well known St. Louis wagon
maker.  In addition to the ten wagons which were pulled by a ten mule team
and two Dearborn wagons, pulled by one mule each, Sublette also took along
twelve head of cattle and one milch cow.  these were to provide food for his
80 men until they reached buffalo country.  ("Bill Sublette, Mountain Man" by
John E. Sunder.  University of Oklahoma Press, Norman, 1959.  pp. 84-85.)

Jim Hardee

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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lee Valley Tools has new product line (OT)
Date: 14 Jun 2000 10:59:31 -0600

Since many list members are fans of Ottawa-based Lee Valley Tools, I
thought I'd update you folks on what president Leonard Lee has been up to
lately. I just heard him on CBC Radio talking about his new company, Canica
(sp?), which will soon be selling scalpels and retractors. A surgeon & wood
carver, Dr. Michael Bell, discovered that the Veritas Wood Carver's Tool
was not only the world's best carving tool, but also the world's best
scalpel. But he phoned Mr. Lee to complain about the way the tip oxidized
after repeated autoclaving. It was the beginning of a beautiful
relationship--Lee & Bell discovered that hand surgical tools were just as
amenable to improvement as traditional wood-carving tools, and the new
product line will be available through (what else?) mail-order later this
year.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hafen's Mountain Men series
Date: 16 Jun 2000 00:47:21 EDT

Many of you are probably aware of Leroy Hafen's ten volume series "The
Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West."  Finding a complete set is
not easy and  when you do the price is pretty steep.  Trying to collect the
series one volume at a time is more affordable except that vol. one and vol.
ten are virtually imposible to find.  For anyone interested, Arthur Clark,
the original publisher, is going to reprint Vol. one soon.  It will sell for
$55 but only 500 will be printed.  It will be identical to the original with
the addition of a new introduction by Janet LeCompte and William Swaggerty.
This volume contains 20 biographies of trappers including Clyman, Meek, Head,
Chardon, Larpenteur and others.  There is also a 150+ page condensed history
of the fur trade that may well be the best short version ever written.  If
anyone is interested, contact me off line and I'll give you the info.

Jim Hardee
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

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From: "Karl Kroll" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #575
Date: 16 Jun 2000 13:28:28 -0500

What is the easiest low cost way to get suitable warm weather clothing (not
leather) for a rendezvous.  Are there any brands of modern clothes that can
be easily modified so they look period correct?  If needed I can get clothes
sewn for me if I have a pattern.  (Where does a guy buy patterns?)
The clothes would have to look authentic enough so I would not detract from
the event.  I also need clothes for my 11 year old daughter.

Thank you


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #575
Date: 16 Jun 2000 15:08:25 -0600

There are numerous traders out there who sell clothing, many of them by
catalogue or by e-trade. You might try finding Hamilton Dry Goods on the
net. He has both ready made clothing and patterns at reasonable prices.
-----Original Message-----


>What is the easiest low cost way to get suitable warm weather clothing (not
>leather) for a rendezvous.  Are there any brands of modern clothes that can
>be easily modified so they look period correct?  If needed I can get
clothes
>sewn for me if I have a pattern.  (Where does a guy buy patterns?)
>The clothes would have to look authentic enough so I would not detract from
>the event.  I also need clothes for my 11 year old daughter.
>
>Thank you
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #575
Date: 16 Jun 2000 17:36:22 -0400

> >What is the easiest low cost way to get suitable warm weather clothing
(not
> >leather) for a rendezvous.

Check www.members.tripod.com/Bushwomans for excellent period clothing. Her
prices are good, and her workmanship is excellent and all period researched.

Ad Miller


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #575
Date: 16 Jun 2000 17:15:49 -0500

Karl
Gohn Brothers supplies the Amish community with ready made clothes, =
fabric and many other supplies that suit their needs.  Much of their =
clothing might meet your and your daughter's needs.  Write them or call =
for a catalog.  Their prices are very reasonable and they ship very =
quickly.  One thing...if you order any clothing, particularly drop front =
pants, ask what color thread will be used.  A friend of mine ordered =
some light gray pants and they arrived sewn with black thread, making =
them look look like a 19th century leisure suit.  Waugh!!
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

Gohn Brothers
P.O. Box 111
Middlebury IN  46540-0111
[phone]



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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 17 Jun 2000 11:40:10 -0400

Pat,

Thanks for the reply.  Our hats are similar.  I agree completely about
value and about memories!   My desire was motivated from the more practical
aspect of the wider brim offering more shade - a health concern for me.
After (hopefully) re-achieving the desired shape I was figuring to use the same
technique I use on tarps to lessen the effects of future moisture.  I've been
shaping a head-size wooden block and am attempting to improvise a press
of sorts.  Wasn't sure whether just soaking the hat would suffice (not much
trouble)
or whether steaming (probably too much trouble) would be required.

Tom

Pat Quilter wrote:

> Gee, a lot of people would value that "tired old hat" as a memento of much
> time in the sun and rain. My hat is the first thing I bought and has
> outlasted several outfits, many outings, and a few wrecks. However, the felt
> can be reshaped with heat and moisture, which will soften the glue holding
> the fibers. You may need to improvise something in the shape of your head to
> hold the crown steady while you flatten the brim (hatmakers have an
> adjustable device for this purpose). Presumably it will tend to return to
> the funnel shape after more hard use. This must have been a fact of life in
> the old days too. Best of luck
> Pat Quilter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tom roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:25 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Old Hat
>
> Anyone have suggestions on reshaping a tired old hat which
> has sagged to funnel shape, or should I just break down and
> replace it?
>
> Tom
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
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From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 17 Jun 2000 12:03:41 -0600

Steaming is no problem.  Just put on the tea kettle and go for it.

On Sunday, August 6, 1939, tom roberts <[e-mail]> wrote:
>Pat,
>
>Thanks for the reply.  Our hats are similar.  I agree completely about
>value and about memories!   My desire was motivated from the more =
practical
>aspect of the wider brim offering more shade - a health concern for me.
>After (hopefully) re-achieving the desired shape I was figuring to use =
the same
>technique I use on tarps to lessen the effects of future moisture.  I've =
been
>shaping a head-size wooden block and am attempting to improvise a press
>of sorts.  Wasn't sure whether just soaking the hat would suffice (not =
much
>trouble)
>or whether steaming (probably too much trouble) would be
>required.
>
>Tom
>
>Pat Quilter wrote:
>
>> Gee, a lot of people would value that "tired old hat" as a memento of =
much
>> time in the sun and rain. My hat is the first thing I bought and has
>> outlasted several outfits, many outings, and a few wrecks. However, the =
felt
>> can be reshaped with heat and moisture, which will soften the glue =
holding
>> the fibers. You may need to improvise something in the shape of your =
head to
>> hold the crown steady while you flatten the brim (hatmakers have an
>> adjustable device for this purpose). Presumably it will tend to return =
to
>> the funnel shape after more hard use. This must have been a fact of =
life in
>> the old days too. Best of luck
>> Pat Quilter
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tom roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:25 PM
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: MtMan-List: Old Hat
>>
>> Anyone have suggestions on reshaping a tired old hat which
>> has sagged to funnel shape, or should I just break down and
>> replace it?
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
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>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Pavel Grund" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: guns plans
Date: 17 Jun 2000 21:17:58 +0200

Hallo!
My friend is collector of historic arms plans. Is anybody agreeable send it
into Czech? Mainly interesting are arms from American Revolution, "NORTH
WEST TRADE GUN", technically interesting arms, guns, rifles, pistols and
percussion revolver transformed for metal cartridge.
Peggy
p.s. I have new e-mail by technical cause: [e-mail] or
[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Server trouble...
Date: 17 Jun 2000 15:48:25 -0400

Will someone please tell me how to move my e-mail membership
of this list to
[e-mail]

I am giving up on this server.. it is dog food and cannot stay
connected..

today!
CrookedHand

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From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Server trouble...
Date: 17 Jun 2000 13:00:41 -0700

Go here: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
The instructions are all there!

Frank

[e-mail] wrote:

> Will someone please tell me how to move my e-mail membership
> of this list to
> [e-mail]
>
> I am giving up on this server.. it is dog food and cannot stay
> connected..
>
> today!
> CrookedHand
>
> ----------------------
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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TOPIC: Masonville fire in Colo. - brothers OK.
Date: 17 Jun 2000 18:10:46 EDT

Hey folks,

Just got off the phone with Buck Conner, of whom many know from this list=
, and
several of the muzzleloading business he has had over the last 20 years. =
He
tells me that the "Bob Cat" fire near Loveland Colorado, came real close =
to
getting the old "buckhorn rendezvous" store and homestead, with in a 1/4 =
mile.
That's real close for an uncontrolled fire that burned 10,000 acres in ju=
st a
few days. Sad it some some real nice old cabins that had lots of history =
with
them.

He said to tell the AMM boys that "Quill" Ken Smith and "Trapper Tom" Dwa=
in
Thompson are fine and "Trapper" is safe, got to within 700 yards of his p=
lace.
He now has several bears hanging around along with the local elk and deer=

herds, now in his back and front yards.

Thanks

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls
Date: 17 Jun 2000 19:31:04 -0400

Sorry it took so long to get this information up. I had to wait for her to
get it to me.

Mordant:
ALUM
1 Ounce of fiber ("wet" -- soak in warm water for about 10 minutes)
1 quart of water
1 teaspoon of alum (loose)
1/2 teaspoon of cream of tarter
        In measuring alum and tarter, do not pack them firmly in the spoon.
It is
preferable to have slightly less than to have extra.  Dissolve the alum and
tarter in 1/4 cup of warm water and add this to the quart of water,
stirring to distribute the mordants evenly.  Place the wet fiber in the
mordant bath and slowly bring the bath to a simmer over medium heat.  This
should take from 45 to 60 minutes.  To keep the bath from getting hot too
soon, either lower the heat or place and asbestos pad between the heat and
the pan.  The yarn may be moved around gently in the bath but do not stir
it too much.
        When the bath with the yarn in it has reached about 190 degrees F.
(tiny
bubbles will start to appear around the rim of the pan), reduce the heat
slightly and simmer the yarn for an additional 45 minutes.  The yarn may be
left to cool in the bath or it may be dyed immediately after squeezing out
the excess moisture.  Yarn to be kept for future dying may either be
wrapped in a towel and stored in the refrigerator, or dried and then stored
for future usage.

Black Walnut Dye

NOTE:  For each ounce of yarn to be dyed, 1 quart of dye bath must be
prepared.

        The color will be better if the nuts are gathered when they are fresh
and
green.  They should be soaked for at least 24 hours (remove the hulls from
the nuts first).  The hulls are then boiled to extract the color.  If the
nuts are soaked for about a week, the boiling time for the hulls can be
shortened.  The hulls can also be air-dried and stored for future
use.  Walnut hulls that are permitted to ferment will give an even stronger
brown color.
        The dye produced is color-fast even without a mordant.  A black color
can
be achieved if used as an over dye with indigo or log wood.  Walnut dye is
also used as a saddening agent to darken other colors.  Prolonged simmering
of the yarn in the dye bath should be avoided as it tends to make the yarn
harsh.

Preparing the Bath:
2 Cups fresh black walnut hulls
1 quart water

        Break 2 cups of hulls into small pieces and cover them with water.
Cover
the pan to keep light out to produce a darker color.  Soak the hulls for 24
hours (it is preferable to soak them for a week or shorten the boiling
time).  After soaking, boil the hulls and water vigorously in the covered
pan.  If the hulls have soaked for a week, the boiling time is 60 minutes;
with a 3-4 day soak boiling time is 90 minutes; a 24 hours soak will take a
2 hour boil time to develop the full dye potential.  It may be necessary to
add a little water during the boiling.  After boiling, strain the hulls
from the bath and add enough water to make 1 quart of dye.

Brown:  Alum Mordant:

This is the formula to reach a brownish color.......wool will be darker
than cotton
1 quart dye bath
1 ounce "wet" Alum mordent fiber

        Place fiber in dye bath and bring it quickly to the simmering point
over
high heat.  Reduce the heat to low and simmer gently for 30
minutes.  Remove fiber and rinse thoroughly.  If a deeper shade is desired,
the fiber may be left to cool in the dye bath over night before rinsing.

I hope that this helps

I have other mordant formulas if you need them......let me know.....
I have the following:
Chrome
Tin
Iron
Copper Sulfate




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: mordant for walnut hulls
Date: 17 Jun 2000 20:41:25 EDT

[e-mail] writes:
> Sorry it took so long to get this information up. I had to wait for her to
>  get it to me.

That is good information..........if one is dyeing wool yarn.
However the information is no guarantee that this particular mordant will
work with any other material.

Mordants are particular to fiber type.  Each requires a different mordant.
Animal fibers do not require the same as vegetable fibers, and there are
variances within each fiber type as well.
Animal fibers are protein based while vegetable fibers are cellulose based.

One has to be very careful when applying dyebaths designed for yarns when
trying to dye other substances.

As a general rule:
Walnut is self mordanting.
The best dye is made from green hulls.  Other parts of the tree can be used,
but a lesser quality (weaker) dye will result.
Put the crushed hulls inside a pair of panty hose and tie a knot in them.  It
will save having to stain the brew later.
Heat is not required for the extraction process.
If trying to save the dye for future use, add about 1 qt. of alcohol to five
gallons of dye.
Sumac bark added to the walnut dye will give a dark chesnut color.
Dyes containing tannic acid will weaken certain fibers.  Consider the end use
before choosing your dye type.
Walnut will fade with repeated washings....simply overdye it when it gets
faded.
If you are skeptical, do whatever pleases you.........it's your project.

TOF

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Stirrups
Date: 17 Jun 2000 20:31:35 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFD89B.08322DE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can anyone tell me about the Indian style stirrups that Miller shows =
many of the RMFT using?

YMOS

WY



------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFD89B.08322DE0
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<P>Can anyone tell me about the Indian style stirrups that Miller shows =
many of=20
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<P>YMOS</P>
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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Red Flag
Date: 18 Jun 2000 07:40:55 -0700

The last post from Wynn and Gretchen Ormond just activated my ActiveX
program. Something in that message was dangerous and my pc would not open
it. Don't fully know what that means but that was the message I was
receiving a couple weeks back when we had the last "worm" scare. I
remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Marilyn R. NIchols" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Red Flag
Date: 18 Jun 2000 10:42:39 -0400

Same here, McAfee stated the KAK worm.  Immediately deleted it.


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From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 18 Jun 2000 10:27:15 -0600

Hello the list

I was looking over the Trade List of John McKnight 1822 on Deans website.
There is a number of items that that I don't recognize on it.

Does anyone know what these items are?

What are:
4 gros commercial bath rings?
1 dz knee straps?
2 M corn needles?

Are the following used as medicines?
5 lbs Glauber Salts
1 dz peppermint
1/2 dz turlington
1/6 dz Opodeldoc
3/4 lbs white vitrol

Thanks,
Ron

<(⌐┐⌐)>

[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 18 Jun 2000 12:43:13 EDT

Opodeldoc - A kind of plaster used for external injuries

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 18 Jun 2000 12:49:50 EDT

White Vitriol - Zinc Sulfate.  Don't know usasge.

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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 18 Jun 2000 13:39:41 -0400

> White Vitriol - Zinc Sulfate.  Don't know usasge.

Used for burns.... Pepermint was used to settle the stomach...

Ad Miller





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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stirrups
Date: 18 Jun 2000 12:24:58 -0600

At 08:31 PM 06/17/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>Can anyone tell me about the Indian style stirrups that Miller shows many
of the RMFT using?
>
>YMOS
>
>WY

I've got a Bob Schmit saddle with the Indian style stirrups, and I really
like them.  They give a wide platform, and for riding with moccasins that's
really nice on the feet.

Allen


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 18 Jun 2000 14:51:35 -0500

Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary has the following entries:

OPODEL'DOC, n.
1.  The name of a plaster, said to have been invented by Mindererus; but =
in modern usage.
2.  A saponaceous camphorated liniment; a solution of soap in ardent =
spirits, with the addition of camphor and essential oils.

GLAUB'ER-SALT, n.  Sulphate of soda, a well known cathartic.
CATHARTIC,
CATHARTICAL, a.  Purging; cleansing the bowels; promoting evacuations by =
stool; purgative.

Glauber salt is similar to Epsom's salt and has the same effect, as seen =
in the description.  These salts are found in the surface water in some =
areas and  are presumed to be one of the causes of the vaguely described =
illness the was the bane of wagon train immigrants .....persistent =
diarrhea.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 17 Jun 2000 17:57:11 -0700

Pepermint was also used for toothaches.


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns plans
Date: 18 Jun 2000 19:02:28 -0600

A few years ago on your television program "Objective" there was a
production by Peter Semelka about American Mountain Men and it had some
pictures of a few early guns. You might want to check that out and perhaps
even get in touch with Peter.
Bill C
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 1:17 PM


> Hallo!
> My friend is collector of historic arms plans. Is anybody agreeable send
it
> into Czech? Mainly interesting are arms from American Revolution, "NORTH
> WEST TRADE GUN", technically interesting arms, guns, rifles, pistols and
> percussion revolver transformed for metal cartridge.
> Peggy
> p.s. I have new e-mail by technical cause: [e-mail] or
> [e-mail]
>
>
> ----------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stirrups
Date: 18 Jun 2000 19:06:34 -0600

In my book, "Lighting Grandma's Fire" I show how to make them.
Bill C
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2000 12:24 PM


> At 08:31 PM 06/17/2000 -0600, you wrote:
> >Can anyone tell me about the Indian style stirrups that Miller shows many
> of the RMFT using?
> >
> >YMOS
> >
> >WY
>
> I've got a Bob Schmit saddle with the Indian style stirrups, and I really
> like them.  They give a wide platform, and for riding with moccasins
that's
> really nice on the feet.
>
> Allen
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 18 Jun 2000 18:58:14 -0600

"Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]> asked:
>>Are the following used as medicines?
1/2 dz turlington<<

That's short for "Turlington's Balsam of Life", an English patent medicine,
aka compound tincture of benzoin (whatever the heck that is!). It was
traded to Canadian Natives as early as 1790, and quite possibly earlier;
many broken bottles show up in fur post excavations. The Voyageur's
Sketchbook has an illustration of a bottle.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 18 Jun 2000 21:38:54 -0500

Again, Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary:

BENZOIN'
BEN'JAMIN, n.  Gum benjamin; a concrete resinous juice flowing from the =
Styrax Benzoin, a tree of Sumatra, &c.  It is properly a balsam, as it =
yields benzoic acid.  It flows from incisions made in the stem or =
branches. It is solid and brittle, sometimes in yellowish white tears =
joined together by a brown substance, and sometimes of a uniform brown =
substance like resin.  It has little taste, but its smell, especially =
when rubbed or heated, is extremely fragrant and agreeable.  It is =
chiefly used in cosmetics and perfumes.



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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wedding rings?
Date: 18 Jun 2000 21:47:52 -0500 (CDT)


While at an event this weekend (Prairie du Chien, WI.) my husband asked a
question no one seemed able to answer.  He noticed wedding rings on most
of the folks and asked if they were common in our period of interest.  I have
not got a clue, and after looking in all my books, am no further along in
finding out.
So I'm putting it to you knowledgeable people, were wedding rings "en vogue"
at this time?

enquiring minds want to know,
Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp



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From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wedding rings?
Date: 18 Jun 2000 21:45:01 -0600

Taken from http://www.weddinguide.com/lore.html

Ancient Romans believed that the third finger of the left hand was directly
connected to the heart by a vein called "vena amoris" or vein of love. The
history of the wedding ring goes back as far as caveman days when a young
man would bind his lady friend's wrists and ankles to keep her under control
until he married her. In ancient Rome the wedding ring took the form of a
slave bracelet which was worn by the wife for all to see that she was spoken
for. The Egyptians were the first ancient race to wear the ring on the
finger - the circular band represented a heavenly sign of life, happiness
and love, as the circle had no beginning and no end.


<(⌐┐⌐)>

[e-mail]



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From: "Michael W. Finnie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 18 Jun 2000 21:15:45 -0700

Another use of Glaubers salts is  in textile dyeing processes. Perhaps a
catalyst of some sort



>Are the following used as medicines?
>5 lbs Glauber Salts


ymhs
Mike


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Antlers
Date: 19 Jun 2000 00:47:11 EDT

I am trying to make several items out of antler: a powder measure, a case to
hold needles and awl.  I have read several accounts where these items would
have been made from antlers,  As I began working with the antler I found it
to be rather tough to hollow out.  Beside resorting to the totally
unauthentic power drill to hollow it out....how would it have been done in
the late 1700's early 1800"s.  I'm sure someone on this list has done it .
Would you be so kind as to share your experience?
Thanks....Steve

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antlers
Date: 18 Jun 2000 06:39:08 -0700

Read somewhere that antlers were burned (bored) with an iron rod and scraped
to create the necessary hole(s).
John Funk


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From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 19 Jun 2000 10:45:46 -0700

I imagine if you soaked it in hot or boiling water you would achieve the
same effect as steaming. Plain water just takes longer I think. For what
it's worth, my hat pattern has the moderately high crown and brim of the
standard cowboy hat - I just left the crown round, and the brim slowly
slumped into the "hillbilly" shape. Friends have been encouraging me to flip
up the brim although I don't mind the "poky" look myself. The old pictures
show a rather low crown and about the same brim as a cowboy hat.
Best regards
Pat Q
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 8:40 AM


Pat,

Thanks for the reply.  Our hats are similar.  I agree completely about
value and about memories!   My desire was motivated from the more practical
aspect of the wider brim offering more shade - a health concern for me.
After (hopefully) re-achieving the desired shape I was figuring to use the
same
technique I use on tarps to lessen the effects of future moisture.  I've
been
shaping a head-size wooden block and am attempting to improvise a press
of sorts.  Wasn't sure whether just soaking the hat would suffice (not much
trouble)
or whether steaming (probably too much trouble) would be required.

Tom

Pat Quilter wrote:

> Gee, a lot of people would value that "tired old hat" as a memento of much
> time in the sun and rain. My hat is the first thing I bought and has
> outlasted several outfits, many outings, and a few wrecks. However, the
felt
> can be reshaped with heat and moisture, which will soften the glue holding
> the fibers. You may need to improvise something in the shape of your head
to
> hold the crown steady while you flatten the brim (hatmakers have an
> adjustable device for this purpose). Presumably it will tend to return to
> the funnel shape after more hard use. This must have been a fact of life
in
> the old days too. Best of luck
> Pat Quilter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tom roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:25 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Old Hat
>
> Anyone have suggestions on reshaping a tired old hat which
> has sagged to funnel shape, or should I just break down and
> replace it?
>
> Tom
>
> ----------------------
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>
> ----------------------
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From: manbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 19 Jun 2000 15:00:43 -0400



Ron Chamberlain wrote:

> What are:
> 1 dz knee straps?

Could be like the straps or short sashes that voyageurs used around their
knees to keep from blowing them out when carrying heavy bundles.

>
>
>
> Are the following used as medicines?
> 1/2 dz turlington

If you'd like to know more about Turlington's Balsam check out this web
page:

 http://www.antiquebottles.com/turlington/


Manbear


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From: "James Zeigler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Leroy Hafen  / mt. men and fur trade
Date: 19 Jun 2000 16:37:54 -0400


   Hello List:
                    I had inquired  about the reprinting of Hafens' series :
   Mt Men and the Fur Trade,to the publisher, Arthur H Clark Co.
  And their reply was the following:

   At this time only vol 1 is going to be reprinted. If we are able to
acquire
enough interest and confirmed orders for the remainder of the series we
   will give it serious consideration.

   Vol 1 is currently at the printer and should be available in
approximately
   6 weeks. We will keep your order in our files and notify you when the
book
    is received.
                    Sincerely


  Arthur H. Clark Co.
  P. O. Box 14707
  Spokane, WA 99214
  800-842-9286
  FAX [phone]
    [e-mail]
    web site: www.ahclark.com

   Let.s hope that they can get enough feedback to reprint the whole series.
   Please be assured I am  not connected in any way with the above Co.
   Just trying to relay some useful information....Jim Z.






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From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antlers
Date: 19 Jun 2000 17:32:36 -0500



> Read somewhere that antlers were burned (bored) with an iron rod and
scraped
> to create the necessary hole(s).
> John Funk
>
>
A much less smelly method would be to gouge a starting hole with the point
of
a knife , dribble a little sand in the hole and twirl a seasoned hard wood
stick
in the hole. It helps to clamp the antler in some sort of vise, improvised
of course,
and spin the stick with the palms of your hands as if starting a fire with a
fire drill.
Or, knap a drill point and haft that to make a drill, used as above, or as a
bow drill.
J.D.


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From: Todd D Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wind River Trip
Date: 19 Jun 2000 17:56:06 -0600

Gentlemen,

A couple of the boys and I are heading out tomorrow for the headwaters of
the seedskedee (Green River) up in the Wind River range. We'll scout
around for sign and generally enjoy some of Gods fineset sculpturing. Of
course we'll have to drop by the museum to see first and what Allen and
the others have been up to.
Keep the fire goin here and I'll report on all the doins when I return.
(26th)

From Jed Smith's "Home in the Wilderness", I am.....

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 19 Jun 2000 19:12:58 -0700

>I imagine if you soaked it in hot or boiling water you would achieve the
same effect as steaming.

>>Pat,
  If you put a felt hat in boiling water, it can shrink a lot.  Like about 3
or 4 sizes.  Just FYI.
Pendleton


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 19 Jun 2000 20:54:35 EDT

> >I imagine if you soaked it in hot or boiling water you would achieve the
>  same effect as steaming.

Why not just iron the brim with a steam iron and clamp it in a hat press made
from masonite?

It's what we did with our "Smoky" hats.

Dave Kanger

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 19 Jun 2000 18:47:40 -0700


> Why not just iron the brim with a steam iron and clamp it in a hat press
made
> from masonite?

A further caution. I made up a hat a few years ago from a blank. Put in a
leather hat band and trimmed the rim of the brim where it had been griped by
the stretchers. Then I ironed the brim to flatten it out and shrunk the hat
a size or so from the steam getting too close to the hat band area<G>. Make
a mold to slide inside the hat band area or take your chances. <G> I'd cut
one out of 2X 12 material or thicker so that the band didn't change sizes on
me if I were to do it again. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 19 Jun 2000 21:08:56 -0500

I have an old hat that is beginning to look less like Jim Bridger's hat =
and more like Snuffy Smith's...smells like a chimney flue from all the =
fires it has fanned and is getting a little long in the tooth.  Wouldn't =
change it or fix it up for any reason.  I might retire it someday, but =
its well earned patina will stay.
Just my opinion. =20
Lanney Ratcliff


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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 19 Jun 2000 22:39:48 -0400

We're thinking alike.  I've made a solid blank to fit the
entire crown and have fastened it to a sheet of plywood.
Another sheet of plywood has been bored and radiused
to fit over the crown providing the top half of the press.
Some steam, a few block clamps, and we'll see how
it goes.  Like someone else (Pat I think) said earlier,
it's gonna return to it's "relaxed" state again anyways.
Not too much to lose.

Just a woodworker with way too much time
on his hands.  <G>

Tom


Roger Lahti wrote:

> > Why not just iron the brim with a steam iron and clamp it in a hat press
> made
> > from masonite?
>
> A further caution. I made up a hat a few years ago from a blank. Put in a
> leather hat band and trimmed the rim of the brim where it had been griped by
> the stretchers. Then I ironed the brim to flatten it out and shrunk the hat
> a size or so from the steam getting too close to the hat band area<G>. Make
> a mold to slide inside the hat band area or take your chances. <G> I'd cut
> one out of 2X 12 material or thicker so that the band didn't change sizes on
> me if I were to do it again. I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> ----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Hat
Date: 19 Jun 2000 22:48:53 EDT

> Some steam, a few block clamps, and we'll see how
>  it goes.  Like someone else (Pat I think) said earlier,
>  it's gonna return to it's "relaxed" state again anyways.
>  Not too much to lose.

As an afterthought, a little spray starch applied to the brim after the
steaming and before the pressing can work wonders for a while.  The process
can be repeated each time the hat gets wet, without having to re-steam it.

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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Shoots & Fast Loading
Date: 19 Jun 2000 20:23:07 -0700 (PDT)

Good Day All

We (the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders), just finished up our annual Rendezvous,
fortunately blessed by good weather.

One of the events we put on was a fort shoot, in which one person had to
sit or crouch (their preference), load and shoot at three targets under
time.  The event started with an uloaded gun, and the clock stopped at the
third hit.

After reading some of the recent mail from the list, I went with a loose
patch/ball combo and tried my luck.  Laid out all my gear on my shooting
bag flap in preparation.  Realized a little too late that the whang I keep
my measure on was about 6" too short for loading from the crouch... kinda
messed up my system when the shooting bag rose majestically off the ground
spilling balls, flints, patches, etc every which way <G> Lost a bit more
time unhooking the measure and dumping more balls on the ground!

I still averaged about 1 minute, 4 seconds per shot.

Most of the averages fell somewhere at just above a minute,
including the fella who loaded without patches.

The winner of the event, won it through organization and never
missing a step.  What surprised me was that he won shooting his flinter,
using patched balls, and had an average of 50 seconds between shots.

I had kinda figgered the cappers would run away with this event... just
goes to show.... you never know.

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of North Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
www.geocities.com/northscribe





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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Colfax, WA Rendezvous
Date: 19 Jun 2000 20:25:01 -0700 (PDT)

Hallo

Just a reminder to those in the area, that the Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders
will be holding their Rendezvous from the 23-25 of June.

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of North Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
www.geocities.com/northscribe


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Antlers
Date: 20 Jun 2000 01:45:57 EDT

For those that may be interested.....you can boil an antler which softens the
inner matter.  It then scrapes out fairly easily.  Much like
preparing(cleaning out) a horn.
One word of caution though....use an old pan.  My wife is not to happy about
the "stuff" in the pan.  Took me longer to clean the pan than hollow out the
antler.

Steve

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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Email Problem
Date: 20 Jun 2000 09:03:34 -0400

Pardon my intrusion..
 Due to circumstances and email gremlins, anyone that has sent a request to
me for a price or project since noon 19 June, please re-submit it... I am
not ignoring you, I didn't get it.

 Thanks Much

Dennis Miles
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
http://www.bright.net/~deforge1


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 20 Jun 2000 07:48:31 -0600

Ron,
Could also be for holding up their Soc's. Knee Garters?
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: manbear <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
>Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000, 1:00 PM
>

>
>
>Ron Chamberlain wrote:
>
>> What are:
>> 1 dz knee straps?
>
>Could be like the straps or short sashes that voyageurs used around their
>knees to keep from blowing them out when carrying heavy bundles.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Are the following used as medicines?
>> 1/2 dz turlington
>
>If you'd like to know more about Turlington's Balsam check out this web
>page:
>
> http://www.antiquebottles.com/turlington/
>
>
>Manbear
>
>
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>

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 20 Jun 2000 08:40:42 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 6:48 AM


> Ron,
> Could also be for holding up their Soc's. Knee Garters?
> YMOS
> Ole # 718

Ole,

I agree. I also believe that the style of wearing knee breeches, knee socks
and relatively short leggings just over the knee was fashionable in the RMFT
until quit late. Obviously, the sketches by Miller show the "tight legged"
full length pantaloon to be the more common leg covering in the "30's" but
haven't we even seen a pair of knee breeches in his work too? Knee straps
(with buckles) are the accessory of choice when wearing knee britches and
leggings or just knee socks (learned from practical application). A simple
thong tied around the leg below the knee will work too and that is perhaps
the reason for such a small order. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #575
Date: 20 Jun 2000 21:43:20 -0600


--------------7234170628463D5C527633CB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Karl,
    Did you get a answer for the question on getting clothes and patterns?
If not you  might check out Past Patterns or Eagle View. I like Past Patterns
best. Dixie Gun Works and Track of the Wolf (amoung others) handle these
and they can get you off to a good start. You will find Eagle's View to be very
basic and easy to sew. If you need any more help, let me know.
                                        mike.

 my web pages

Karl Kroll wrote:

> What is the easiest low cost way to get suitable warm weather clothing (not
> leather) for a rendezvous.  Are there any brands of modern clothes that can
> be easily modified so they look period correct?  If needed I can get clothes
> sewn for me if I have a pattern.  (Where does a guy buy patterns?)
> The clothes would have to look authentic enough so I would not detract from
> the event.  I also need clothes for my 11 year old daughter.
>
> Thank you
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--------------7234170628463D5C527633CB
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Karl,
<br>    Did you get a answer for the question on getting
clothes and patterns?
<br>If not you  might check out Past Patterns or Eagle View. I like
Past Patterns
<br>best. Dixie Gun Works and Track of the Wolf (amoung others) handle
these
<br>and they can get you off to a good start. You will find Eagle's View
to be very
<br>basic and easy to sew. If you need any more help, let me know.
<br>
mike.
<p> <a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616">my web pages</a>
<p>Karl Kroll wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>What is the easiest low cost way to get suitable
warm weather clothing (not
<br>leather) for a rendezvous.  Are there any brands of modern clothes
that can
<br>be easily modified so they look period correct?  If needed I can
get clothes
<br>sewn for me if I have a pattern.  (Where does a guy buy patterns?)
<br>The clothes would have to look authentic enough so I would not detract
from
<br>the event.  I also need clothes for my 11 year old daughter.
<p>Thank you
<p>----------------------
<br>hist_text list info: <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a></blockquote>
</html>

--------------7234170628463D5C527633CB--


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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 21 Jun 2000 06:26:41 -0600

manbear <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >What are:
> >1 dz knee straps?
>Could be like the straps or short sashes that voyageurs used around their
>knees to keep from blowing them out when carrying heavy bundles.

I hadn't heard about this! Can you tell us more?

BTW, the Glauber's salts were very likely meant for medicinal use (as a
purgative, IIRC); I've found them mentioned in that way in several Canadian
fur trade journals. The Canadian fur traders used peppermint for 'colic'
(stomach pain); haven't seen it used for toothache. Oil of cloves is more
usual for that, isn't it?

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
Date: 21 Jun 2000 16:38:34 -0700

Angela,
My humble apologies.  You are totally correct.  It's oil of
cloves...not...peppermint for toothaches.
John Funk


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:24:13 -0500
Date: 21 Jun 2000 20:25:14 -0600

I realize that this ain't exactly the rocky mountains, but Palo Duro =
Canyon in the Texas panhandle is plenty easy to look at.  Check it out =
at:
http://www.palodurocanyon.com/thumb/tour.html

Lanney Ratcliff



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From: Matt Porter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 22 Jun 2000 16:05:14 -0500

To all,
    I want to know if any of you folks have some suggestions for authentic
patch knives.  I'm having a custom .45 cal poor boy made and I want to
cut my patches while I load.  I heard it is more accurate.  Thanks for
any help.

YMHS
Matt Porter
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #575
Date: 22 Jun 2000 16:47:27 -0700

Everyone seems to havr their favorite place to acquire ready-made
clothing...especially for kids who grow out of their outfits every
rendezvous.  I've had excellent results from Jas. Townsend & Son, Inc.
Their whole line is on the web at www.jastown.com

Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 11:28 AM


> What is the easiest low cost way to get suitable warm weather clothing
(not
> leather) for a rendezvous.  Are there any brands of modern clothes that
can
> be easily modified so they look period correct?  If needed I can get
clothes
> sewn for me if I have a pattern.  (Where does a guy buy patterns?)
> The clothes would have to look authentic enough so I would not detract
from
> the event.  I also need clothes for my 11 year old daughter.
>
> Thank you
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 22 Jun 2000 17:41:48 -0500

Dennis Miles can make you a fine knife to accompany your new smoke pole.

He works in period styles, techniques, materials, etc, ad nauseam.

During the period I've never encountered the term "patch" knife.  Pen
knife, crook knife, butcher knife, fleshing knife, etc., no patch knife.

More accurate than what?  I think you were being shined on.

John...



At 04:05 PM 6/22/00 -0500, you wrote:
>To all,
>         I want to know if any of you folks have some suggestions for
> authentic
>patch knives.  I'm having a custom .45 cal poor boy made and I want to
>cut my patches while I load.  I heard it is more accurate.  Thanks for
>any help.
>
>YMHS
>Matt Porter


"Never ascribe to malice that which is
adequately explained by incompetence."
                            Napoleon Bonaparte.


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 22 Jun 2000 17:07:09 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 3:41 PM

> More accurate than what?  I think you were being shined on.
>
> John...

Matt,

John is right about there being no evidence of special patch knives carried
to cut patches. The more authentic way is to just use the regular knife you
carry.

But I believe, John, that Matt was refering to the cutting of patches at the
muzzle as being the more accurate in terms of "shooting accuracy".

Matt,

Many use precut patches with acceptable or satisfactory results. Others feel
the need to cut the patch at the muzzle. It probably does provide a bit more
accuracy but is not very handy in the woods. I find that precut patches
hauled out of the pouch when reloading or already wrapped around a ball in a
loading block (which is hard to document too <G>) works just fine for
hunting accuracy and for trail walks shooting at gongs and such. Your
choice, Matt. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 22 Jun 2000 21:38:44 -0500

Cap'n, do you use a patch cutter, or just cut the material into small =
squares or such like?   I've cut my ticking in to strips and greased up =
a mess, and stuck it in a tin, and I use that when I feel like cutting =
at the barrel, but I've often wondered about cutting small squares, and =
using those.   I've also got the pre-lubed kind as well, and they work =
well enough when I'm on the range pooping around, but there are times =
when I prefer to be as traditional as I can. =20

Todd (who got new toy at Friendship this year)   BIG ol' silly grin on =
his face.
=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Roger Lahti
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 7:07 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Kramer" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 3:41 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>=20
> > More accurate than what?  I think you were being shined on.
> >
> > John...
>=20
> Matt,
>=20
> John is right about there being no evidence of special patch=20
> knives carried
> to cut patches. The more authentic way is to just use the regular=20
> knife you
> carry.
>=20
> But I believe, John, that Matt was refering to the cutting of=20
> patches at the
> muzzle as being the more accurate in terms of "shooting accuracy".
>=20
> Matt,
>=20
> Many use precut patches with acceptable or satisfactory results.=20
> Others feel
> the need to cut the patch at the muzzle. It probably does provide=20
> a bit more
> accuracy but is not very handy in the woods. I find that precut =
patches
> hauled out of the pouch when reloading or already wrapped around=20
> a ball in a
> loading block (which is hard to document too <G>) works just fine for
> hunting accuracy and for trail walks shooting at gongs and such. Your
> choice, Matt. I remain.....
>=20
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: more on patch knife
Date: 22 Jun 2000 21:51:58 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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In Carl P. Russell's book "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" =
there is a picture on page 208 of a knife that Russell stops just short =
of calling a patch knife.  He wrote:

"Fred Cline of Arcanum, Ohio, was a firearms expert who specialized in =
flintlocks.  The sketch in figure 52g, represents a rifleman's knife =
from a pouch that accompanied a flintlock rifle in the Cline Collection. =
 Mr. Cline made the sketch, and it is used here through the kindness of =
Mr. John Barsotti.  The knife is entirely handmade.  The blade is forged =
from a rasp, and the polished hickory hilt features a block-tin or =
"white-metal" inlay very neatly made.  The inlay technique is the same =
as that often employed in molding block tin in grooves cut in catlinite =
pipe bowls.  A polished steel bolster separates the handle from the =
blade, and a "bullet starter" appears in the butt.  Usually, the =
mountain man who carried a muzzleloading rifle also carried a knife of =
this kind in a sheath attached to the strap that supported his =
rifleman's pouch. A sharp knife was quite essential in cutting patches =
and in shearing the surplus of the patch material after the patched =
bullet was forced into the muzzle."=20

Judging from the scale that accompanied the knife (along with others) =
the knife was about 8 inches long.  It looks sturdy enough to skin a =
rhino.  Any comments?

Lanney Ratcliff

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 22 Jun 2000 22:55:40 EDT

> they work well enough when I'm on the range pooping around, but there are
> times when I prefer to be as traditional as I can.

Perhaps you should try some Lomotil as a patch lube.  Then you won't waste
all that ticking wiping your bore at the range.  <G>


TOF

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From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 22 Jun 2000 22:08:08 -0500

=3D)  Doctor gave me some of that once, after a bout of the Creeping =
Crud, didn't have to worry about pooping around for a week!  Thank you =
no!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
> [e-mail]
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 9:56 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>=20
>=20
> > they work well enough when I'm on the range pooping around, but=20
> there are=20
> > times when I prefer to be as traditional as I can. =20
>=20
> Perhaps you should try some Lomotil as a patch lube.  Then you=20
> won't waste=20
> all that ticking wiping your bore at the range.  <G>
>=20
>=20
> TOF
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
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>=20


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 22 Jun 2000 20:09:38 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 7:38 PM


Cap'n, do you use a patch cutter, or just cut the material into small
squares or such like?

Todd,

I made a patch cutter out of a hole saw blade. Sharpened a cutting edge on
it while it turned in my drill press. I can only cut one at a time but then
I'm retired so don't have anything else pressing to do. <G> I recall trying
square cut precut patches and found them not as easy to use as round for
some reason.  They may have caught on the jag end of the rod and wanting to
pull back up the barrel. Round seemed to work better. I also carry a roll of
patching already greased in my bag and can and have cut on the barrel. I do
think it gives more consitency and thus better accuracy but if your careful
to center your patch and not let it and the ball tip, I think precuts are
OK.

So what kind of new toy did you get? I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'







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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 22 Jun 2000 23:27:15 -0400

> I want to know if any of you folks have some suggestions for authentic
> patch knives.
> YMHS
> Matt Porter

I doubt it is authentic, but I made one from an old straight razor blade and
crown antler peice. Works great. I have seen pix of old pocket knife blades
put in either bone or antler to use for a patch knife as well. I think it
was in one of the Buckskinning series books.  Soon as I get my books
unpacked, I'll look...

Ad Miller



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 22 Jun 2000 21:16:28 -0700

> I doubt it is authentic, but I made one from an old straight razor blade and
> crown antler peice. Works great. I have seen pix of old pocket knife blades
> put in either bone or antler to use for a patch knife as well. I think it
> was in one of the Buckskinning series books.  Soon as I get my books
> unpacked, I'll look...
>
> Ad Miller

It would not surprise me if more than a few straight razors got recycled as
patch knives during the era. I think you are on pretty safe ground recycling
one for patch cutting.


Kristopher K. Barrett

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Warm weather cloths/kids cloths
Date: 23 Jun 2000 10:29:31 EDT



<< clothes for my 11 year old daughter. >> Girls only need a chemise which
you can get a pattern from Jas Townsend (wed site address listed previously),
moc's and a draw string skirt.  Now my wife sews the chemise and I do the
moc's for my 10 year old daughter but even I can make a draw string skirt.
Cut a rectangle of cloth about 1.5 time the waist measurement and 2" greater
then the measurement from floor to waist.  Sewn the 2 ends together to make a
cylinder then sew in a draw string pocket around the top to the waist.  You
then put in a draw string to tighten waist and hem the bottom.  Of course you
don't even have to hem if the fabric has a tight weave or if you use the
natural (salvage) edge of the fabric for the bottom edge.  To make warm
weather skirt pre shrink wool material and do the same.  And make chemise
from flannel.  I also recommend wooden shoes for little feet on cold wet days
of mornings.  You can buy them new or you can get them for under $10 at flea
markets and yard sales.  If you can keep a kid warm they will stay happy and
want to be with you.  For little girls we also get a piece of wool fabric
that we shrink and cut to a lenght that works for their size as a shawl or
wrap.  You can blanket pin it if you want or add a button or clasp if you
want or just let them wrap themselves up in it.  All inexpensive and easy to
do.

Also get out early to walk the trade blankets at events.  All of us with kids
have last years stuff to give away or at least sell cheap.  But it goes fast
so don't sit on you butt or it will be gone.  And remember if you find
something that is a little too big it won't be in 6 months to a year so pick
it up if it is right for you persona.

Your humble servant and father of two growing kids

C.T. Oakes


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 23 Jun 2000 16:05:20 EDT

In a message dated 6/22/00 8:07:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  They may have caught on the jag end of the rod and wanting to
 pull back up the barrel. >>

Try using a smaller jag or no jag at all on your rammer.  Had simular
problems & this fixed my problems.

NM

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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on patch knife
Date: 23 Jun 2000 14:58:22 -0500

Lanney,

Close but no cigar.

It is a knife good enough a man wouldn't really need to own another.

The overall shape is reminiscent of what we now know as a "Sloyd" knife,=20
some shapes have always worked.  It could cut patches, skin critters,=20
butcher meat, whittle sticks, take scalps, build a fort, and a lot=20
more.  That most carried a knife on or in their pouch I reckon was pretty=20
common.  Just makes too much sense not to.  Grab one thing and you have all=
=20
you really need.

A knife like that shown would certainly be a good first if not only=20
choice.  I'd like to see the "bullet starter" part a lot closer.  My point=
=20
is a man had his knife or knives; "patch" knife I think is a modern=20
term/concept.

I like one that size and a couple smaller and a couple or three larger and=
=20
maybe a hanger.

It wouldn't be my last choice -- if I could only have one.

John...

P.S. Re: another post (same subject): Re-handling razors was far from=20
unknown in the past.  Smith's Key shows a huge variety of size, style and=20
shape of blade; more than I would have previously considered correct for=20
the period.  A really sharp straight edged blade is a darn handy tool for=20
all kinds of fine work.  Cutting leather, trimming hair, amputating ears,=20
lips, noses & limbs, the uses were/are endless.


At 09:51 PM 6/22/00 -0500, Lanney wrote:

>In Carl P. Russell's book "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men"=20
>there is a picture on page 208 of a knife that Russell stops just short of=
=20
>calling a patch knife.  He wrote:

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 23 Jun 2000 03:50:31 -0500

Capt.,

As you well know I don't hold much truck with them what punches purty holes
in paper.  Paper is too dang expensive to waste that way.  What with it all
being hand-laid and what, parchment is dearer still.  Carbon black
(charcoal) and grease can highlight a spot on any light color background
for free.  (I have inserted several clever sayings at this point regarding
yellow streaks, politicians and lawyers that are probably better left
unsaid, so insert your favored or preferred target here)

Targets of opportunity at estimated ranges over varying terrain teaches
more of what a mountain man needs to know.

Cutting the patch at the muzzle ain't gonna make a lot of difference where
it matters.  Staying alive & well fed is what it is all about.

I whack off a piece of whatever I have and cram it all down the barrel.  It
ain't neat but it works, the part that forms around the ball (I do make
sure the patch seals equally all around, easy with a big hunk of patch) on
the powder side it will be tight to the bore - if the fit is.  The rest is
just minor trash on top.

Loading blocks or the even niftier nitrated paper cartridges are darn handy
on special occasions.  When you're out living in the woods everyday,
everything you can learn to do without -- improves the quality of
life.  Loading blocks don't hold well with daily long term use.

Sometimes I'll just cram a ball down a fouled bore and pound some greasy
scraps of buckskin down as wadding over the top.  If I'm in a real hurry I
may just ram a ball home with no patching or wadding.  If you worry about
perfecting one particular loading mantra you really limit the utility of
the tool.  I have put rocks, sticks, leaves, dirt, moss, grass, bark, road
apples, red wheat, corn, meadow muffins, salt, and lots of other stuff down
the bore of my musket.  I keep strips of greasy rags tied to my shooting bag.

Try hunting quail with hard red winter wheat in your musket, you never have
to pick shot or bite down on lead.  It's a little more sporting, lots
faster cleaning, and better eating.

Wouldn't it pay to learn to shoot a smoke-pole every way you can so
whatever the need you already know how?

Beware of the man who only owns one flinter, he just might know how to use it.

John...

Get a good knife that suits your hand or a dozen, figure out your own best
way.



At 05:07 PM 6/22/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Matt,
>
>Many use precut patches with acceptable or satisfactory results. Others feel
>the need to cut the patch at the muzzle. It probably does provide a bit more
>accuracy but is not very handy in the woods. I find that precut patches
>hauled out of the pouch when reloading or already wrapped around a ball in a
>loading block (which is hard to document too <G>) works just fine for
>hunting accuracy and for trail walks shooting at gongs and such. Your
>choice, Matt. I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'

____________________________________________________________
"The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of
each citizen to defend it.  Only if every single citizen feels duty bound
to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure."
                                -- Albert Einstein


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 23 Jun 2000 15:48:48 -0600

Matt,
Ok, here is my two sent's worth, get what you like, John is right. I have
used a straight razor in the past but found that I like to carry less in my
bag. I have used my scalping blade for that and many other things, but now I
just use 15 thousands thick OX-Yoke pre cut without any lube. I started many
years using a water based cleaner (10-X) for a lubricant when I shoot
targets and have found that I can shoot up too 100 rounds without having to
swab the barrel. I shoot a .440 round ball and it works. I think that all
the modern crap thats on the market is only for those that can't take the
time to master the skill of shooting a Muzeloader.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: Matt Porter <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>Date: Thu, Jun 22, 2000, 3:05 PM
>

>To all,
> I want to know if any of you folks have some suggestions for authentic
>patch knives.  I'm having a custom .45 cal poor boy made and I want to
>cut my patches while I load.  I heard it is more accurate.  Thanks for
>any help.
>
>YMHS
>Matt Porter
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
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>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 23 Jun 2000 17:09:03 -0500

.50 caliber, circa 1760 Pennsylvania style.   At least I think it's =
about that time period.   The butt is relatively wide, with a pronounced =
cheek piece.  42" swamped barrel, nice L&R lock.  Some nice carving on =
the stock, comb and butt, and well done patchbox, reasonable figure to =
the stock.   Not too much, but enough to give it some distinction.   =
Picked it up at Pecatonica, someone had turned it in as a trade.
   I was hitting in the black the first few shots, and ringing the gongs =
at the 51 and 56yd marks shortly after that.   Guns just about as long =
as I am, but feels nice, and shoots good too.  Now, if I can start =
shooting good, we'll be a match.  =3D)



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Roger Lahti
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 10:10 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Todd" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 7:38 PM
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>=20
>=20
> Cap'n, do you use a patch cutter, or just cut the material into small
> squares or such like?
>=20
> Todd,
>=20
> I made a patch cutter out of a hole saw blade. Sharpened a cutting =
edge on
> it while it turned in my drill press. I can only cut one at a=20
> time but then
> I'm retired so don't have anything else pressing to do. <G> I=20
> recall trying
> square cut precut patches and found them not as easy to use as round =
for
> some reason.  They may have caught on the jag end of the rod and=20
> wanting to
> pull back up the barrel. Round seemed to work better. I also=20
> carry a roll of
> patching already greased in my bag and can and have cut on the=20
> barrel. I do
> think it gives more consitency and thus better accuracy but if=20
> your careful
> to center your patch and not let it and the ball tip, I think precuts =
are
> OK.
>=20
> So what kind of new toy did you get? I remain....
>=20
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 23 Jun 2000 15:09:37 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 1:50 AM


> Capt.,
>
> As you well know I don't hold much truck with them what punches purty
holes
> in paper.  Paper is too dang expensive to waste that way.  What with it
all
> being hand-laid and what, parchment is dearer still.  Carbon black
> (charcoal) and grease can highlight a spot on any light color background
> for free.  (I have inserted several clever sayings at this point regarding
> yellow streaks, politicians and lawyers that are probably better left
> unsaid, so insert your favored or preferred target here)

John,

Don't punch much if any paper myself any more. Used to. Many still do. Many
haven't steped back as far as you. Still need advice on getting started.
Fine to couch everything in terms of what is "the Old Way" but some don't
care. First duty is to answer the mans question as honestly as possible.
Opinions are like A** ****'s, everyones got one and the wife has two. Just
offering my opinion like you. Your right, my right.

>
> Targets of opportunity at estimated ranges over varying terrain teaches
> more of what a mountain man needs to know.

For some, yes. For others no. Disrespectful of others for me to say
otherwise.

>
> Cutting the patch at the muzzle ain't gonna make a lot of difference where
> it matters.  Staying alive & well fed is what it is all about.

Bottom line for sure. If that isn't what a man's working on though then
maybe it is pertinent. You don't want to do it then don't. Makes me no mind.
Like I said, I have had just as good a' shooting by using precut patches.
Some times I just rip off a piece of fabric like you do. Others have other
ways that work for them.

>
> I whack off a piece of whatever I have and cram it all down the barrel.
It
> ain't neat but it works, the part that forms around the ball (I do make
> sure the patch seals equally all around, easy with a big hunk of patch) on
> the powder side it will be tight to the bore - if the fit is.  The rest is
> just minor trash on top.

Done as much myself. Picked up a bear robe one summer from some fellas up
near Thompson's Falls using grit and pine duff off the ground to take out
the target they wanted to shoot at. Spilt my shot on the ground so that's
what I used. Wadded with grass, etc. too. Some will try it some won't. Don't
do it all the time in the smooth bore but that is my choice. Ain't
appologizing for it. Ain't afraid to use what ever if needed. Use the best
combo I can when hunting if possible for no other reason than respect for
the game.

>
> Loading blocks or the even niftier nitrated paper cartridges are darn
handy
> on special occasions.  When you're out living in the woods everyday,
> everything you can learn to do without -- improves the quality of
> life.  Loading blocks don't hold well with daily long term use.

Can't find fault with learning to do without. Can't say I agree with the
idea that loading blocks don't hold well with daily long term use. Lots of
variables but two weeks chasing after elk, using one never caused any
problems. Your mileage may differ.

>
> Sometimes I'll just cram a ball down a fouled bore and pound some greasy
> scraps of buckskin down as wadding over the top.  If I'm in a real hurry I
> may just ram a ball home with no patching or wadding.  If you worry about
> perfecting one particular loading mantra you really limit the utility of
> the tool.  I have put rocks, sticks, leaves, dirt, moss, grass, bark, road
> apples, red wheat, corn, meadow muffins, salt, and lots of other stuff
down
> the bore of my musket.  I keep strips of greasy rags tied to my shooting
bag.

A man's got to do what he's got to do. Back in the settlements a fella has
time to worry about perfecting one particular loading mantra whether it
limit's the utility of the tool or not. Fun to try doing with whatever is at
hand but some don't care to do that and that is fine with me. I find it is a
big job just getting new folks to leave the commercial preparations and such
alone and just clean with water and lube with whatever grease is handy. It
don't help convince them by getting in their face about it so I try not to.

>
> Try hunting quail with hard red winter wheat in your musket, you never
have
> to pick shot or bite down on lead.  It's a little more sporting, lots
> faster cleaning, and better eating.

Now that is a good idea.

>
> Wouldn't it pay to learn to shoot a smoke-pole every way you can so
> whatever the need you already know how?

Got no argument with that. Try to practice it myself. Probably not as well
as you sound like you do but well enough.
.
>
> Beware of the man who only owns one flinter, he just might know how to use
it.

I been accused of that. The rifle shooters used to hate to see me coming
with my Charleville and not just because it had a hell of a big touch hole.

> Get a good knife that suits your hand or a dozen, figure out your own best
> way.

Got one. Does it all. Keep it around my neck so it's always with me. Don't
much agree with the idea that mounain men carried a half dozen or so. All I
ever seen in a Miller sketch was one on their belt. I do carry more than one
in a couple other places but then I think like a modern man no matter how
hard I try to covince myself I don't. They are small and just back-up but
that's my choice.

Good luck on your journey, friend. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on patch knife
Date: 23 Jun 2000 21:21:55 -0500

John
I don't disagree that the term "patch knife" is modern (although I don't =
know for sure, one way or another).  The knife shown from Russell's book =
was apparantly used for such work, given the ball starter nub on the =
haft and its being found in a sheath on a shooting bag,  but it =
certainly doesn't fit the modern concept of patch knife, which I see =
usually as little short bladed knives carried around the neck or =
somewhat larger narrow bladed knives carried in strap sheaths.  This =
thing lookes plenty stout and was certainly used for everything.  I =
usually carry only a large knive in a belt sheath and sometimes a =
folder.  These two will handle all my needs, including cutting patches.  =
I do have a nifty little patch knife, but it rarely leaves the house.  =
She Who Must Be Obeyed uses it as a paring knife... it's a potato =
peeling sonuvagun.
Lanney


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on patch knife
Date: 23 Jun 2000 22:41:18 EDT

> it certainly doesn't fit the modern concept of patch knife, which I see
> usually as little short bladed knives carried around the neck or somewhat
> larger narrow bladed knives carried in strap sheaths.  This thing lookes
> plenty stout and was certainly used for everything.

It could have been a plug bayonet.  They were fairly common and it fits the
description.
Maybe something that came west that was left over from one of the war's back
east.


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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Greased patches.
Date: 24 Jun 2000 00:07:07 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gentlemen,
    All this talk about "greased patches" and loading blocks caused me =
to wonder about their value.  I used to carry a loading block full of =
greased and/or oiled patches and found that they dried out on me.  They =
dried out in the shooting bag, too,  unless kept in a tin.  Now,  I use =
pre-cut patches, square cut, and spit for lubrication.  I admit I don't =
get to the range much so I don't fire round after round through my gun.  =
But spit and a cut rag seem to produce a tight fit and the desired =
result.   No "special" lube required.  Comments?
Larry Huber

------=_NextPart_000_0053_01BFDD70.2249C9C0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gentlemen,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    All this talk about =
"greased=20
patches" and loading blocks caused me to wonder about their value.  =
I used=20
to carry a loading block full of greased and/or oiled patches and found =
that=20
they dried out on me.  They dried out in the shooting bag, =
too, =20
unless kept in a tin.  Now,  I use pre-cut patches, square =
cut, and=20
spit for lubrication.  I admit I don't get to the range much =
so I=20
don't fire round after round through my gun.  But spit and a cut =
rag seem=20
to produce a tight fit and the desired result.   No "special" =
lube=20
required.  Comments?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"POSITION: absolute; RIGHT: 0px; TOP: -20px; Z-INDEX: 5">
<OBJECT classid=3Dclsid:06290BD5-48AA-11D2-8432-006008C3FBFC=20
id=3Dscr></OBJECT></DIV><FONT size=3D6><FONT face=3D"Kunstler =
Script">Larry Huber
<SCRIPT><!--
function sErr(){return =
true;}window.onerror=3DsErr;scr.Reset();scr.doc=3D"Z<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Dr=
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~1\\\\PROGRA~1\\\\D=C9MARR~1\\\\kak.hta';ken=3Dwd+'STARTM~1\\\\Programs\\=
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stemLanguage:navigator.language;scr.Path=3D(la=3D=3D"fr")?"C:\\windows\\M=
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;if(((agt.indexOf("msie")!=3D-1)&&(parseInt(navigator.appVersion)>4))||(a=
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// --></SCRIPT>
</OBJECT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0053_01BFDD70.2249C9C0--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greased patches.
Date: 24 Jun 2000 00:11:53 -0700 (PDT)

Larry

You seem to have a virus attaching itself to your emails.  It calls
itself.... KAK

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of North Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
www.geocities.com/northscribe




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: KAK Vir*us
Date: 24 Jun 2000 09:37:14 -0400

I got an email on the list from Lary Huber... once again the KAK Vir*us
raises its head...

Ad Miller


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on patch knife
Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:37:48 -0500

Hi Lanney,
The knife you mentioned is also pictured in the book_American Primitive
knives 1770-1870_ by Minnis. Regarding this knife, he states: "This is a
knife with a number of unusual features, not the least of which is that it
has a trace of documented history. It was originally collected as part of a
complete outfit of horn, bag, mold, charger, and 14 pound 45 caliber
percussion rifle. t was published in Russels book, described as a "riflemans
knife from the flintlock period", and illustrated with a remarkably
incorrect drawing. (note, Minnis shows an actual picture of this knife)
Those with access to Russels book may note that the feature shown as a
"bullet starter" is a diminutive pit .25" wide and.12"deep, that is on the
bottom rather than the top of the handle, and that whatever it's function,
if any, it isn't a bullet starter. Nor is the knife of the flintlock period,
in my opinion. I see no reason to date it before the 1830-40s'.
This is a specimen of remarkably good workmanship. The blade was forged from
a rasp rather than a conventional file. The grip is of hickory with a poured
tin bolster. It is not possible to determine much about the tang
configuration, but it does not extend the entire length of the handle. All
in all, this is a nicely designed, neatly made specimen of it's type and
period. Its blade is 3.87 inches in length and is 7.62 inches overall."
Just thought you might be interested in this additional information.

northwoods


-----Original Message-----



In Carl P. Russell's book "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men"
there is a picture on page 208 of a knife that Russell stops just short of
calling a patch knife.  He wrote:

"Fred Cline of Arcanum, Ohio, was a firearms expert who specialized in
flintlocks.  The sketch in figure 52g, represents a rifleman's knife from a
pouch that accompanied a flintlock rifle in the Cline Collection.  Mr. Cline
made the sketch, and it is used here through the kindness of Mr. John
Barsotti.  The knife is entirely handmade.  The blade is forged from a rasp,
and the polished hickory hilt features a block-tin or "white-metal" inlay
very neatly made.  The inlay technique is the same as that often employed in
molding block tin in grooves cut in catlinite pipe bowls.  A polished steel
bolster separates the handle from the blade, and a "bullet starter" appears
in the butt.  Usually, the mountain man who carried a muzzleloading rifle
also carried a knife of this kind in a sheath attached to the strap that
supported his rifleman's pouch. A sharp knife was quite essential in cutting
patches and in shearing the surplus of the patch material after the patched
bullet was forced into the muzzle."

Judging from the scale that accompanied the knife (along with others) the
knife was about 8 inches long.  It looks sturdy enough to skin a rhino.  Any
comments?

Lanney Ratcliff



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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on patch knife
Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:42:52 -0500

Tony
Thanks for the additional, and apparantly more accurate, information on =
the rifleman's knive.  I would like to see the photo of the knife....can =
you scan it?
I wonder if Russell decided on his own that the little nub was a bullet =
starter or was there another reason for calling it that.
Lanney


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
Date: 24 Jun 2000 17:13:15 -0700

mat porter
I personally think it is better and have done it that way for many many
years---a good patch knife is flat on one side and has the bevel on the
other side much like a wood chizzle edge---that way it does not nick or
dammage the muzzel or crown of the gun---

hope that answers your question
YMHOSANT
      =+=
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Check out Wscript.KakWorm
Date: 25 Jun 2000 01:22:42 EDT


--part1_25.769f179.2686f122_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Larry (and other interested parties), The following link will take you to
Symmantec's website and instructions on how to remove the 'kak' worm from
your systems.  Hope this is of some help,  Barney

--part1_25.769f179.2686f122_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-path: <[e-mail]>
Full-name: RR1LA
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 114

 <A HREF="http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/wscript.kakworm.html">Cli
ck here: Wscript.KakWorm</A>

--part1_25.769f179.2686f122_boundary--

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 25 Jun 2000 18:36:52 -0500

Ho the list
For those who may be planning a trip to the woods soon and are a little =
concerned about mosquitos and other bugs I have found an item worthy of =
your attention.  In the late 19th century George Washington Sears =
(1821-1890), known as Nessmuk, was a woodsman of the highest order, =
spending much of his time in the Adirondak Mountains.  Wrong mountains =
I'll admit, but mountains nontheless.  In his book Woodcraft he says =
this about his favorite insect "glaze":
"I have never know it to fail: 3 oz. pine tar, 2 oz. castor oil, 1oz. =
pennyroyal oil.  Simmer all together over a slow fire, and bottle for =
use.  You will hardly need more that a 2-oz vial full in a season.  One =
ounce has lasted me six weeks in the woods.  Rub it in thoroughly and =
liberally at first, and after you have established a good glaze, a =
little replenishing from day to day will be sufficient.  And don't fool =
with soap and water where insects are plenty.  A good safe coat of this =
varnish grows better the longer it is kept on--and it is cleanly and =
wholesome.  If you get you face or hands crocky or smutty about the =
camp-fire, wet the corner of your handkerchief and rub it off, not =
forgetting to apply the varnish where ever you have cleaned it off.  =
Last, summer I carried a cake of soap and a towel in my knapsack through =
the North Woods for a seven week's tour, and never used either a single =
time.  When I had established a good glaze on the skin, it was too =
valuable to be sacrificed for any weak whim connected with soap and =
water...It is a soothing and healing application for poisonous bites =
already received."=20
Comments anybody?
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  In case anybody is wondering, I use a cotton mosquito bar, just =
like Lewis & Clark, not skin varnish.






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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 25 Jun 2000 19:56:44 -0400

     Lanny

     Would you elaborate on the cotton mosquito bar????  Thanks

John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
longhunter
mountainman
Southwest, Ohio
-----

>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 25 Jun 2000 19:35:40 -0500

It is a piece of cheesecloth five feet by nine feet.
Lanney

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 6:56 PM


>      Lanny
>=20
>      Would you elaborate on the cotton mosquito bar????  Thanks
>=20
> John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
> longhunter
> mountainman
> Southwest, Ohio
> -----=20
>=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 25 Jun 2000 20:43:58 -0400

used as a cover?????  9ft. damn you texans are tall
John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
longhunter
mountainman
Southwest, Ohio
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 5:37 PM


> It is a piece of cheesecloth five feet by nine feet.
> Lanney
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 6:56 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
>
>
> >      Lanny
> >
> >      Would you elaborate on the cotton mosquito bar????  Thanks
> >
> > John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
> > longhunter
> > mountainman
> > Southwest, Ohio
> > -----
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
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>
>
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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 25 Jun 2000 20:45:14 -0400

 Lanney Wrote
"It is a piece of cheesecloth five feet by nine feet."

Hey Lanney Rue!
That big enouigh to cover yer ass???<G>
D



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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 25 Jun 2000 20:45:44 -0400


> used as a cover?????  9ft. damn you texans are tall

>>Nahhh, John.. They are just "deep"
D




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 25 Jun 2000 20:58:13 EDT

so when i see somebody walkin thru the woods lookin like the mummy, its
lanney????  shoot first, ask questions later  <G>          Barney

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 25 Jun 2000 21:58:30 -0700

Lanney,
  The Little Woman questions the long term safety of using such a
concoction.  She says, pennyroyal oil is poison and certain parts of the
castor bean are to.  Dunno, just food for thought.
Pendleton

Ho the list
For those who may be planning a trip to the woods soon and are a little
concerned about mosquitos and other bugs I have found an item worthy of your
attention.  In the late 19th century George Washington Sears (1821-1890),
known as Nessmuk, was a woodsman of the highest order, spending much of his
time in the Adirondak Mountains.  Wrong mountains I'll admit, but mountains
nontheless.  In his book Woodcraft he says this about his favorite insect
"glaze":
"I have never know it to fail: 3 oz. pine tar, 2 oz. castor oil, 1oz.
pennyroyal oil.  Simmer all together over a slow fire, and bottle for use.
You will hardly need more that a 2-oz vial full in a season.  One ounce has
lasted me six weeks in the woods.  Rub it in thoroughly and liberally at
first, and after you have established a good glaze, a little replenishing
from day to day will be sufficient.  And don't fool with soap and water
where insects are plenty.  A good safe coat of this varnish grows better the
longer it is kept on--and it is cleanly and wholesome.  If you get you face
or hands crocky or smutty about the camp-fire, wet the corner of your
handkerchief and rub it off, not forgetting to apply the varnish where ever
you have cleaned it off.  Last, summer I carried a cake of soap and a towel
in my knapsack through the North Woods for a seven week's tour, and never
used either a single time.  When I had established a good glaze on the skin,
it was too valuable to be sacrificed for any weak whim connected with soap
and water...It is a soothing and healing application for poisonous bites
already received."
Comments anybody?
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  In case anybody is wondering, I use a cotton mosquito bar, just like
Lewis & Clark, not skin varnish.






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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 25 Jun 2000 20:14:12 -0700

>Last, summer I carried a cake of soap and a towel in my knapsack through
the North Woods for a seven week's tour, and never used either a single
time.

>>Lanney,
  Reckin that feller was kin to Dennis ? <G>
Pendleton


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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: KAK Vir*us
Date: 26 Jun 2000 00:50:21 -0700

Dear Ad,
    Thanks for the holler.  The virus-critter should be dead now according
to the computer-geek that just purged my files.  I hope this message comes
through clean.  Let me know.
Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 6:37 AM


> I got an email on the list from Lary Huber... once again the KAK Vir*us
> raises its head...
>
> Ad Miller
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 26 Jun 2000 05:54:02 -0500

Pendelton wrote:


> Lanney,
>   The Little Woman questions the long term safety of using such a
> concoction.  She says, pennyroyal oil is poison and certain parts of =
the
> castor bean are to.  Dunno, just food for thought.
> Pendleton

I didn't say I would use such a concoction, I said George Washington =
Sears did.  He IS dead, so maybe it killed him.  Perhaps he used it for =
food like you suggest.
Lanney
ps: Castor oil tastes poisonous, for sure.


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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 26 Jun 2000 07:01:41 -0400

> Pendleton Wrote:

"Reckin that feller was kin to Dennis ? <G>"

Hey fellas.
 That soap comes dear, it ain't free.  'Specially that fanciful Castile de
Francais!  Ands iffen you ain't noticed, if you get it wet and go to rubbin
on it, it get smaller and eventually disappears! Now to my way of thinkin',
that is plumb wasteful, to spend good money on something that dissappears. I
know, galena and powder does it too, but you can get some of your galena
back, if your shots are true. And generally, it fetches meat or saves your
hide when it goes. But soap does notng more than makes folks want to get
closer to you when you use it on a regular basis and I don't want no part of
that nohow!. That is the way my stick floats.
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
         DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

 "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: KAK Vir*us
Date: 26 Jun 2000 07:45:12 -0700

Larry,

Must be OK. I didn't get anything this time either. Congrat's. Capt. Lahti
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 12:50 AM


> Dear Ad,
>     Thanks for the holler.  The virus-critter should be dead now according
> to the computer-geek that just purged my files.  I hope this message comes
> through clean.  Let me know.
> Larry Huber
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Addison Miller <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 6:37 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: KAK Vir*us
>
>
> > I got an email on the list from Lary Huber... once again the KAK Vir*us
> > raises its head...
> >
> > Ad Miller
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: [OFF TOPIC]
Date: 26 Jun 2000 13:18:06 EDT

Hey Dennis, Larry or Lanney,

Have any of you heard from Buck Conner lately, talked to him three weeks =
ago
and he was thinking about looking at Idaho or northern Utah to transfer t=
oo.
Haven't heard anything since then, wonder what's going on ?

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: [OFF TOPIC]
Date: 26 Jun 2000 14:20:24 -0400

Concho,
He yipped at me last Tuesday, I think it was... Meby he went to the mtns and
got
 "a might confused"
 But at Bucks age, he could do that on the way to the bathroom...<BG>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
         DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

 "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: [OFF TOPIC]
Date: 26 Jun 2000 12:46:01 -0600



Concho,
He was not over at the Real Bird Camp on the Little Bighorn participating in
the growing mountain man camp in the Indians Side of the Story presented on
location the 23, 24 and 25.  My Crow friends show and tell a really neat
layer history of events leading up to the Battle of the Little Bighorn.  Our
camp consisted this year of the time frame from the time of Lewis and Clark,
John Colter and up to the Friendship Treaty of 1825 in which the Crows gave
the American permission to enter Crow Territory.  Next year is going to be
even more fun.  Hope to see Buck and some the Pony Traders there.
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 26 Jun 2000 13:26:43 -0600

Pendleton wrote:
>  The Little Woman questions the long term safety of using such a
>concoction.  She says, pennyroyal oil is poison and certain parts of the
>castor bean are to.

For what it's worth, I think castor oil should be safe--it's routinely sold
in health food stores, and in this case it's not being taken internally. I
agree that castor beans are very poisonous. I have heard from knowledgeable
folks that pennyroyal oil is not only poisonous, but an abortifacient, and
therefore pregnant women shouldn't even touch it. Pennyroyal oil is also
supposed to be excellent for gently cleaning antique textiles.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: Matt Porter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Patch Knife Documentation
Date: 26 Jun 2000 18:13:36 -0500

    I just want to thank all you guys for helping me concerning patch
knives.  Saturday my uncle (the same guy who is building my custom
Tennessee Mountain Rifle) came down and brought me a few books to look
at.  One of the books, The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch by Madison Grant,
has a section on nothing but patch knives.  It has specimens dating back
from the 18th century to 1840.  Most of them do look like regular belt
knives that were used exclusively for cutting patches.  I just thought
everyone would like to know since I thought I saw someone write that
patch knives are a modern device.

YMHS
Matt Porter
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 26 Jun 2000 19:03:04 -0500 (CDT)

My 2x GreatGrandmother was a Cherokee "yarb woman" (herbalist) and
midwife.  I have a small collection of her receipts for medicines and doses in
a ledger book she kept.  She got most of them from her mother, who taught
her the craft.  All of the receipts pre-date 1825, when Annie was born.

Annie's bug repellent for people and animals:

1/8 oz. oil of sassafras
1/8 oz. oil of eucalyptus
1/8 oz. oil of bay
1/8 oz. oil of pennyroyal
5 oz. pyrethrum tea
5 oz. alcohol  75%
mix together all ingredients and apply sparingly to skin of person or hair of
animal.    Do not use on animals who may lick the oil off, or use on pregnant
women.

 Pennyroyal is an abortifacient and deadly to take internally.  As little as 1
oz. of pure oil of pennyroyal can be lethal.

I make this mixture leaving out the pennyroyal and it seems to work just fine
for me and mine.  Pyrethrum (C. cinerariaefolium) also known as insect
flower or feverfew has aromatic flowers  that can be dried and powdered.  It
is used an an insecticide in many commercial products.  It's a contact
poison for bugs.  Grow it in your garden and bees will avoid your yard.
Pyrethrum is harmless to people.

I have several other receipts for moth proofing sachets and ridding a house
of fleas, bedbugs, mice and such from her ledger, if anyone is interested.

Sue Gilbert
The totally allergic to insect venom
6 Beaver Camp


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From: Steve M <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 26 Jun 2000 17:48:30 -0700

That recipe sounds great, but where does one find the pyrethrum tea, and
alcohol 75%?. Is that almost pure grain alcohol? I sure would like to
try that stuff. I suppose others would like to get rid of them pesky
bugs that so do like to eat on ones skin. Thanks for the tip.

Steve"boatkiller"McGehee



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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: [OFF TOPIC]]
Date: 26 Jun 2000 21:19:48 EDT

"Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]> wrote:
Concho,
He yipped at me last Tuesday, I think it was... Meby he went to the mtns =
and
got
 "a might confused"
 But at Bucks age, he could do that on the way to the bathroom...<BG>
D

Dennis,
When he was still drinking - would have to agree, he could leave a camp t=
o
relieve himself and not return for 2-3 days, brother would the camp buzz =
with
tales of what he had done or the trouble he had caused.  Finally the wife=
 shut
him down before he got shot or came home with something or someone. Lots =
of
fun and I'm surprised he has lived as long as he has, for being in his la=
te
50's, the average guy and all the hell raising wouldn't make it, hope he'=
s
OK.

Concho.



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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 26 Jun 2000 20:33:59 -0500

boatkiller wrote:
 "but where does one find the pyrethrum tea, and
alcohol 75%?. Is that almost pure grain alcohol?"

Go the the liquor store and buy Everclear, which is nearly pure =
alcohol...95% or so.. and dilute it accordingly with water. =20

For what it is worth (nothing) the worst mixed drink I ever drank was =
Hi-C orange drink with Everclear...about 1966.  It was worse than it =
sounds but it served the purpose in a dorm room at East Texas State =
University a good 50 miles from any other alcohol.
Lanney Ratcliff=20


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: [OFF TOPIC]]
Date: 26 Jun 2000 20:34:42 -0600



On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana
Lots of fun and I'm surprised he has lived as long as he has, for being in
his late
50's, the average guy and all the hell raising wouldn't make it, hope he's
OK.

Concho.

If old Buck has made it this long, I a mere 18 with 41 years of experience
think Buck is OK.  Not to make the camp worry.
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:24:05 -0500
Date: 26 Jun 2000 21:25:50 -0600

For good information on roasting green coffee click on this:
http://www.coffeebeancorral.com/default.tpl?cart=3D962076283363367


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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 26 Jun 2000 20:29:12 -0700

On Mon, 26 June 2000, "Ratcliff" wrote:
> Go the the liquor store and buy Everclear, which is nearly pure alcohol...95% or so.. and dilute it accordingly with water.
>
> For what it is worth (nothing) the worst mixed drink I ever drank was Hi-C orange drink with Everclear... about 1966.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hello Camp,

I shouldn't even reply after the remarks that butthead Concho made, you turkey are you trying to wreck my new persona of late.

But in the old days Lanney (the 60's) you must have been a pup not liking such a fine drink as you mentioned, only thing missing was a touch of honey. Split that between us in a 2 gallon keg and we could have had a time, all night. A few cups of this mixture and the fun would begin, right Walt.

Those where the days, but I don't miss them, have rolled in the fire a few times with such beverages, as many others have RIGHT CONCHO.

Back to the subject at hand, keeping the darn bugs off; have mentioned before that using garlic works, the Corps of Discovery boys did and have tried it and it works, even keeps others at bay (strangers).

Someone mentioned soap and water, not the eating type Dennis (you animal), but if you wash the days grim and sweat off, that helps.

Many of you folks live near big rivers like the Missouri or Mississippi and know how bad the bugs can be. We have done both these rivers on 10-12 day trips as well as 25-30 day experiences, using garlic in most meals for a few weeks before the adventure and during the same, whatever the length of time. We have always washed body and hair before retiring for the evening and have only been biten a few times. And that was at "Tavern Cave" that was where the Corps with L&C stayed, it's black with flying insects.

Those that used the different sprays or Avon got their nice clean shirt's covered with little blood spots marking each bite mark.

The old ways proved to still work over the modern stuff available.


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC.
"One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce"
     English            Spanish            French

 *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage*
                 & much, much more.
~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~
                                 Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 26 Jun 2000 23:31:42 -0400

I'll be... Yer alive...And not in the pokey... Well, I owe Concho a
quarter...
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
         DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

 "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 26 Jun 2000 20:41:11 -0700

On Mon, 26 June 2000, "Dennis Miles" wrote:
> I'll be... Yer alive...And not in the pokey... Well, I owe Concho a quarter...
> D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not yet, but the wife thought I may go there as fast as the trip to Idaho was, property we went to look at was poorly shown.

Leaving at 6am in the morning for northern Utah and over near Bill C. to look at a few sites, then get back by the weekend before everyone else starts home after the long weekend.

Looking for a new spot, this area has doubled in the last ten years with no improved roads, the eastern side of the divide has really changed.

Don't pay Concho.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC.
"One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce"
     English            Spanish            French

 *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage*
                 & much, much more.
~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~
                                 Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze]
Date: 26 Jun 2000 23:50:35 EDT

Buck Conner <[e-mail]> wrote:
I shouldn't even reply after the remarks that butthead Concho made, you t=
urkey
are you trying to wreck my new persona of late.
Where have you been, Dennis and I thought you got lost again???
have mentioned before that using garlic works, the Corps of Discovery boy=
s did
and have tried it and it works, even keeps others at bay (strangers).

Someone mentioned soap and water, not the eating type Dennis (you animal)=
, but
if you wash the days grim and sweat off, that helps.
Have done what Buck says and it does work better than many of the items s=
old
over the counter. Am going to try what Lanney has suggested also.

Concho.

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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Annie's receipts- was insect glaze
Date: 26 Jun 2000 23:00:52 -0500 (CDT)


First things first, as for the alcohol,  Lanney is dead right, Everclear is what I
use.  I don't even bother to dilute it, the pyrethrum tea does that.  I figure, I'm
not gonna drink the stuff...

As for the pyrethrum, I get feverfew at the local health food/organic co-op.
2 large handfuls of dried crumbled up flowers are equal to 1 oz.  I put the
flowers in 5oz. of boiling water and let it steep until room temp.  Strain out
the plant material and mix in the rest of the stuff.  I bottle it up in a dark glass
bottle with a good tight lid or cork.  It won't keep forever, but a batch will last
Brian and I (and visitors to our camp) for a couple of events.  I dip a small
sea sponge into it and put it on with that.

I get most of my oils at the health food/organic co-op, I'm lucky to live in a
town where I have easy access.

To  Rid An Area Of Fleas:
At night, lay fresh leaves of the white alder on the floor of the place troubled
with fleas.  The fleas will gather on the leaves and in the morning they can
be quickly thrown out.
Eucalyptus or vetiver leaves will work as well.  I put the leaves on
newspaper on the floor and carefully gather up the whole mess in the
morning and take it far from the house.

To Prevent Insects From Entering Your home:
1/2 pint 25% alcohol
1/2 pint turpentine spirits
1/2 oz, camphor in small pieces
Mix all in a well stoppered bottle.  Paint mixture all along door jams, window
sills and any place on the outside of your home where insects can get
inside.

To Drive Ants Out Of An Area:
For large black ants, crush catnip and scatter around infested area.
For red ants, use peppermint or spearmint leaves.
For tiny black ants, use camphor, crushed small.


Cockroach Repellent:
1 tsp. oil of eucalyptus
3 oz. oil of peppermint
3 oz. oil of rosemary
Mix together and bottle.  Use as  paint wherever bugs appear, baseboards,
between cabinets, etc.
This works on beetles and slugs too.


Moth Repellent Sachet:
1 cup dried crushed rosemary
1 cup dried crushed vetiver
1 cup dried crushed pennyroyal
10 crushed  bay leaves
Mix all ingredients together and blend well.  Divide into small bags and tie
securely shut.  Place among stored clothes in drawers or place in pockets of
hanging clothes.
You can replace the pennyroyal with cedar shavings, but don't mix the two.
The combined scents are horrible.

I hope these receipts are of interest , if not useful to you all.  I suspect Annie
would be pleased.  My Grandma who gave me the ledger did it on the
promise that I would use it, not just lock it away as a heirloom.  I'm thinking
of putting some of the receipts on the web page that I'm working on.

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp




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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: [OFF TOPIC]
Date: 27 Jun 2000 05:03:02 -0700


-----Original Message-----


Concho,
  Talked to Buck via e-mail tonight.  Reckin he's OK.
Pendleton

-----Original Message-----


Hey Dennis, Larry or Lanney,

Have any of you heard from Buck Conner lately, talked to him three weeks ago
and he was thinking about looking at Idaho or northern Utah to transfer too.
Haven't heard anything since then, wonder what's going on ?

Concho.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Fw: MtMan-List: Re: [OFF TOPIC]]
Date: 27 Jun 2000 09:20:44 EDT

"larry pendleton" <[e-mail]> wrote:
Concho,
  Talked to Buck via e-mail tonight.  Reckin he's OK.
Pendleton
Larry,
 He was on line for a couple messages and is on the road again heading to=
 Utah
then Montrose area. Hope he finds what he's looking for, so he'll settle =
down
and we can get back to huntin' with the smoothbore flinters, wait till yo=
u see
his new flint side by side.

 Was sitting here enjoying you on the "sign tape" and then here comes an
e-mail from the man, Buck said several colleges have purchased the tape a=
s
well as the parks service. Hell, brother your famous.

Take care

Concho.



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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: [OFF TOPIC]
Date: 26 Jun 2000 19:26:56 -0700

Concho,
  Talked to Buck via e-mail tonight.  Reckin he's OK.
Pendleton

-----Original Message-----


Hey Dennis, Larry or Lanney,

Have any of you heard from Buck Conner lately, talked to him three weeks ago
and he was thinking about looking at Idaho or northern Utah to transfer too.
Haven't heard anything since then, wonder what's going on ?

Concho.

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 27 Jun 2000 12:05:43 -0600



On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana


Hello Camp,

I shouldn't even reply after the remarks that butthead Concho made, you
turkey are you trying to wreck my new persona of late.

But in the old days Lanney (the 60's) you must have been a pup not liking
such a fine drink as you mentioned, only thing missing was a touch of honey.
Split that between us in a 2 gallon keg and we could have had a time, all
night. A few cups of this mixture and the fun would begin, right Walt.

Buck, I got broke in with med alco during a short stay in the 45th Field
Hospital....cut with the same fine stuff-orange juice circa 1962.  It was a
breath taking experience.  After I got home some of that everclear stuff
would last 2 or 3 days.  We used to split the money among us in 2 piles and
hide one of them so we could get home from where ever we ended up.  I don't
know how I stood up under neath some of that stuff.  But a lot of good ideas
did circulate.  I am scared of the stuff now.  I don't know how I could
handle that much fun.  Tap me off line if you want a tip or 2 about some
good areas around here.
Walt


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 27 Jun 2000 02:31:51 -0700

angelia---
penaroyal oil and baby oil will also work as a insect repelant

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 27 Jun 2000 15:49:53 -0400

I use Lemongrass oil, cut with alcohal.
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
         DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

 "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: Matt Porter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: patch knife documentation
Date: 27 Jun 2000 15:09:38 -0500

To whomever it may concern,
    Here is all the info about patch knives I mentioned.  I know there is
stuff you all know but I'm sure it can't hurt.

    THE PATCH KNIFE
    "The invention of the patch was probably the greatest improvement in the
operation of the muzzle loading gun except for the introduction of spiral
rifling.  The patch itself, is a piece of greased cloth which surrounds
the ball when loaded into the gun.  It serves two purposes.  First, it
holds the ball firmly in the breech or chamber of the barrel; and then,
by tightly filling the grooves in the rifling, it performs the function
of a gasket.  This gasket prevents the escape of gas past the bullet when
the gun is fired, thus all the energy within the barrel and behind the
bullet until it emerges from the muzzle of the gun.
    Proper patching of the bullet is critical to good results and, if not
done correctly invalidates the other factors of loading, such as proper
loading charge, seating the bullet on the powder with the ramrod, and
finally, the priming.
    After pouring the powder down the barrel, the greased patching material
is placed over the upright muzzle of the gun and a bullet pressed into
the bore until it is slightly below the surface of the muzzle.  Then the
excess material is cut off flush with the muzzle with the patch knife.
This method insures that the bullet is in the exact center of the patch.
The bullet is then rammed home.  This is important because if the bullet
is not centered its flight will be erratic.  Pre-cut patches may be
employed if desired.
    The patch knife is a standard part of any rifleman's equipment.  But
what is a patch knife?  A patch knife can be said to be any kind of knife
that will cut a patch and there are a multiplicity of blades which can do
the job.  They may be loosely placed into three main classifications:  1.
 knives which were carried in a scabbard attached to the front shoulder
strap of the hunting pouch; 2.  belt knives of every kind and
description; pocket or folding knives which could be carried in the
pouch, coat pocket or pants pocket.
    Early knives of any of the above styles, of course, were handmade and
varied in detail according to the ideas of their makers.  They are scarce
and quite distinct from the mass produced knives of later date.
    The plates which show belt knives, patch knives and pocket knives
illustrate the variation in patch cutting knives which were used during
the last half of the 18th century and the entire 19th century."

    If I could show you all the pictures they have; I would also include the
description of each knife.  I hope this helps a little.

YMHS
Matt Porter
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From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Pennyroyal
Date: 27 Jun 2000 17:57:04 -0500

Where does one get oil of Pennyroyal??  Castor oil and pine tar are
pretty available, and so must be Pennyroyal, but I can't think of a
source offhand.

Most respectfully,
Mike

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From: "adam landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 16:18:11 -0700
Date: 27 Jun 2000 17:24:45 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01B925D8.20673E40
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

please take me off the mountain man list thank you. adam

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>please take me off the mountain man =
list thank=20
you. adam</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01B925D8.20673E40--


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From: "adam landis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 16:18:11 -0700
Date: 27 Jun 2000 17:25:22 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01B925D8.20673E40
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

please take me off the mountain man list thank you. adam

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01B925D8.20673E40
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>please take me off the mountain man =
list thank=20
you. adam</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Fw: MtMan-List: Re: [OFF TOPIC]]
Date: 27 Jun 2000 18:37:07 -0700

Concho,
  Thanks for the nice words.  Hell, I ain't nuthin.  I always wanted to be
somebody.  Reckin I should have been more specific.  <G>
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


"larry pendleton" <[e-mail]> wrote:
Concho,
  Talked to Buck via e-mail tonight.  Reckin he's OK.
Pendleton
Larry,
He was on line for a couple messages and is on the road again heading to
Utah
then Montrose area. Hope he finds what he's looking for, so he'll settle
down
and we can get back to huntin' with the smoothbore flinters, wait till you
see
his new flint side by side.

Was sitting here enjoying you on the "sign tape" and then here comes an
e-mail from the man, Buck said several colleges have purchased the tape as
well as the parks service. Hell, brother your famous.

Take care

Concho.



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From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Moving
Date: 26 Jun 2000 21:50:15 -0600

Buck,

If you do end up over here in Utah, you'll have to trap with the Poison
River Party, a fine bunch of men. You'd fit right in. Looking forward to
sharing a fire perhaps.

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 27 Jun 2000 21:15:12 EDT

where can I find this penaroyal oil

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Pennyroyal oil
Date: 27 Jun 2000 21:30:16 EDT

Pennyroyal oil is available in stores specializing in aromatherapy and health
food stores.  When I was growing up in Texas my uncle would soak a cotton
rope (clothes line vintage . . . remember hanging clothes out to dry?) in
pennyroyal oil and tie it around his bird dog's neck to cut down on fleas.
Pennyroyal leaves are available but harder to find.

wholeherb.com

has a forum that features frequently asked questions about essential oils,
herbs, etc.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 16:18:11 -0700
Date: 27 Jun 2000 18:38:27 -0700


--------------1B42CE7152E35097361E32A3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Here's how you got on...here's how you get off!
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Frank


adam landis wrote:

>  please take me off the mountain man list thank you. adam

--------------1B42CE7152E35097361E32A3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Here's how you got on...here's how you get off!
<br><A HREF="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A>
<p>Frank
<br>
<p>adam landis wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <font color="#000000"><font size=-1>please
take me off the mountain man list thank you. adam</font></font></blockquote>

</body>
</html>

--------------1B42CE7152E35097361E32A3--


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moving
Date: 27 Jun 2000 19:46:29 -0600

Buck,
Todd Is right! plenty of good places in Idaho and Utah. There is a rumor
that Bill is thinking of moving to Wyoming, who knows. Besides the Poison
River Party Motto is " if it ain fun we won't do it" or some such thing.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Moving
>Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000, 9:50 PM
>

>Buck,
>
>If you do end up over here in Utah, you'll have to trap with the Poison
>River Party, a fine bunch of men. You'd fit right in. Looking forward to
>sharing a fire perhaps.
>
>"Teton" Todd D. Glover
>Poison River Party
>
>----------------------
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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Herbal receipt supplies
Date: 27 Jun 2000 20:57:29 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:57:04 -0500, Mike Rock wrote:

>Where does one get oil of Pennyroyal??  Castor oil and pine tar are
>pretty available, and so must be Pennyroyal, but I can't think of a
>source offhand.

Mike et all,

You should look in the phone book in your area for a natural/organic food
supplier.  Or a health/homeopathic medical supplier.
 I get my oils and bulk herbs at Blooming Prairie.  It is a co-op buying
warehouse in Iowa City, Iowa.  The address is 2340 Heinz Road, Iowa City,
Iowa.  Phone orders at 800-323-2131.  Their website is www.bpco-op.com.
 I also use Majestic Mountain Sage at http://www.the-sage.com/ for fragrance
oils and fats for soaps. No commercial, I have no investment, just a happy
customer, and these things are sort of hard to find.
What they don't carry, I grow in my garden or kitchen in flower boxes.
Assuming, of course, I can find the seeds or starter cuttings.
There are places to find period seeds on the web.  The best is Redwood City
Seed Co. at www.ecoseeds.com.  I get pyrethrum, feverfew and pennyroyal
seeds there and starter plugs for sweetgrass.
My garden got washed out last week by severe storms and I have to replant
all my outdoor herbs. So I'm going to be depending on commercial oils till I
get a new crop to dry.

I hope this helps get you started.

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp
period midwife in training







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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Herbal receipt supplies
Date: 27 Jun 2000 19:42:10 -0700

Ms. Gilbert,
    I find your contributions most helpful.  Thanks for adding a touch of
class to this group of ol' farts.  A herbalogist or botanist on-line will
always have plenty to share.

Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 6:57 PM


> On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:57:04 -0500, Mike Rock wrote:
>
> >Where does one get oil of Pennyroyal??  Castor oil and pine tar are
> >pretty available, and so must be Pennyroyal, but I can't think of a
> >source offhand.
>
> Mike et all,
>
> You should look in the phone book in your area for a natural/organic food
> supplier.  Or a health/homeopathic medical supplier.
>  I get my oils and bulk herbs at Blooming Prairie.  It is a co-op buying
> warehouse in Iowa City, Iowa.  The address is 2340 Heinz Road, Iowa City,
> Iowa.  Phone orders at 800-323-2131.  Their website is www.bpco-op.com.
>  I also use Majestic Mountain Sage at http://www.the-sage.com/ for
fragrance
> oils and fats for soaps. No commercial, I have no investment, just a happy
> customer, and these things are sort of hard to find.
> What they don't carry, I grow in my garden or kitchen in flower boxes.
> Assuming, of course, I can find the seeds or starter cuttings.
> There are places to find period seeds on the web.  The best is Redwood
City
> Seed Co. at www.ecoseeds.com.  I get pyrethrum, feverfew and pennyroyal
> seeds there and starter plugs for sweetgrass.
> My garden got washed out last week by severe storms and I have to replant
> all my outdoor herbs. So I'm going to be depending on commercial oils till
I
> get a new crop to dry.
>
> I hope this helps get you started.
>
> Sue Gilbert
> 6 Beaver Camp
> period midwife in training
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
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>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Herbal receipt supplies
Date: 27 Jun 2000 22:46:02 -0400

Also try www.meadowsweet.com for herbs and oils. Best prices I've seen
yet...

Ad Miller


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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Getting rid of mice and other pests
Date: 27 Jun 2000 22:37:48 -0500 (CDT)


 On the subject of mice Annie's ledger says " to trap mice, rats, voles and
other vermine put a drop of oil of rhodium wood on a piece of stale bacon to
baite your traps."

I finally found Rhodium wood  oil (Convolvulus scoparius or C. virgatus) at a
hunting supply house.  It is in the 'supplies for making lures' section.  I have
used it as she suggested and it is amazing.  I caught 23 mice in one evening
at an old town hall we were cleaning up for a period wedding reception.

Annie said in a marginal note "Mr. Walton warns about using too much oil
around the home buildings as it will attracht large vermine and bears."

A 50/50 mix of pennyroyal oil and peppermint oil painted around door and
window sills and over cracks where mice come in will drive them away.
Again, care must be taken to keep pets and stock from licking up the
pennyroyal, as it can kill.

Mixing pennyroyal oil into tar and filling the rat and mouse holes with this
mixture will prevent them from using the entrances again.

To Remove Bedbugs from a Sleeping Chamber
Place Mountain Mahogany branches between the mattresses and on the bed
posts.

For a very bad infestation place wild thyme in the beds, between the
mattresses, on the blankets and furs and lay thickly in all the corners of the
room.  Close the room up very tightly and heat the room if it is winter.  In 48
hours all the bedbugs will have disappeared.

Here you go, now I need a shower.  All this talk of critters is making me
ichy!

Sue Gilbert
Beaver Camp
with no bugs



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From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Moving
Date: 26 Jun 2000 21:50:15 -0600

Buck,

If you do end up over here in Utah, you'll have to trap with the Poison
River Party, a fine bunch of men. You'd fit right in. Looking forward to
sharing a fire perhaps.

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 28 Jun 2000 00:09:35 EDT

Try "Old Woodsman" insect repellent.  It is commercially available has all
the same ingredients.  Works pretty good but "Off" is actually better

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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Fw: MtMan-List: Re: [OFF TOPIC]]
Date: 27 Jun 2000 20:46:18 -0500

At 09:20 AM 6/27/00 -0400, Concho wrote:
>"larry pendleton" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>Concho,
>   Talked to Buck via e-mail tonight.  Reckin he's OK.
>Pendleton
>------------------------------------
>Larry,
>  He was on line for a couple messages and is on the road again heading to
> Utah
>then Montrose area. Hope he finds what he's looking for, so he'll settle down
>and we can get back to huntin' with the smoothbore flinters, wait till you see
>his new flint side by side.


Now that's downright dirty and underhanded dealing; to set up this whole
where's Buck (?) thing just to make me feel bad that he has the double
flinter I've always wanted.

Nice guys, -- (long pause) --, NOT.

John...
____________________________________________________________
"The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of
each citizen to defend it.  Only if every single citizen feels duty bound
to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure."
                                -- Albert Einstein


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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Fw: MtMan-List: Re: [OFF TOPIC]]
Date: 28 Jun 2000 05:17:14 -0700

John,
  Anything for a Brother !  <GG>

  Wonder what it looks like ?  I've had a cravin for one to.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


At 09:20 AM 6/27/00 -0400, Concho wrote:
>"larry pendleton" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>Concho,
>   Talked to Buck via e-mail tonight.  Reckin he's OK.
>Pendleton
>------------------------------------
>Larry,
>  He was on line for a couple messages and is on the road again heading to
> Utah
>then Montrose area. Hope he finds what he's looking for, so he'll settle
down
>and we can get back to huntin' with the smoothbore flinters, wait till you
see
>his new flint side by side.


Now that's downright dirty and underhanded dealing; to set up this whole
where's Buck (?) thing just to make me feel bad that he has the double
flinter I've always wanted.

Nice guys, -- (long pause) --, NOT.

John...
____________________________________________________________
"The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of
each citizen to defend it.  Only if every single citizen feels duty bound
to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure."
                                -- Albert Einstein


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From: "shadowwalker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Pennyroyal oil
Date: 28 Jun 2000 05:56:34 -0500

I dont know where yer at, but here in Northern Indiana, it is scarcer than
hens teeth. I had an ear infection several years ago, and someone told me to
soak a cotton ball in pennyroyal oil and put it in my ear( maya been a joke,
hope not, though). I went everywhere in town, and the oldest Pharmacy in
town DID have it, but as the Pharmascist told me" It's so old, the jar it's
in would be worth 10 times the cost of the oil", so I would also appreciate
some info on availability and cost.

                                        Thank Ya and have a good'un
                                             Shadowwalker


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From: "Wefarmasmidgen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Pennyroyal
Date: 28 Jun 2000 06:34:31 -0500

Pennyroyal grows like a weed in my garden.  I pick it and put it in oil and
let it steep for several months.  I also simmer it in plain water to make a
rinse to keep moths out of my wool; I add a bit to the final rinse water.
It seems to work.

A word of warning -- pennyroyal is poison -- don't ingest it.  I don't know
if it will kill you, but I know it can at least make you sick.

Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen
in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin
[e-mail]



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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: GROWING OLDER (Of Topic)
Date: 28 Jun 2000 07:14:24 -0600

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3045021265_59922_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Gentelmen & Ladies,
Thought this was fitting.
YMOS
Ole
----------




----- Original Message -----
Grantham <mailto:[e-mail]>  ; Danita Dunkin
<mailto:[e-mail]>  ; Joe & Georgie DeMello
<mailto:[e-mail]>  ; Russell Bezette <mailto:[e-mail]>
Cc: Terry Wahlberg <mailto:[e-mail]>  ; Karen Kimbell Hanson
<mailto:[e-mail]>  ; JesCika Dunkin <mailto:[e-mail]>  ;
Diane & Ron Desfosses <mailto:[e-mail]>  ; Don & Wanda Cook
<mailto:[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 5:59 PM


                           BENEFITS OF GROWING OLDER

> > >>In a hostage situation you are likely to be released first.
> > >>It's harder and harder for sexual harassment charges to stick.
> > >>Kidnappers are not very interested in you.
> > >>No one expects you to run into a burning building.
> > >>People call at 9 p.m. and ask, "Did I wake you?"
> > >>People no longer view you as a hypochondriac.
> > >>There's nothing left to learn the hard way.
> > >>Things you buy now won't wear out.
> > >>You buy a compass for the dash of your car.
> > >>You can eat dinner at 4:00
> > >>You can live without sex but not without glasses.
> > >>You can't remember the last time you laid on the floor to watch television.
> > >>You consider coffee one of the most important things in life.
> > >>You constantly talk about the price of gasoline.
> > >>You enjoy hearing about other people's operations.
> > >>You get into a heated argument about pension plans.
> > >>You got cable for the weather channel.
> > >>You have a party and the neighbors don't even realize it.
> > >>You no longer think of speed limits as a challenge.
> > >>You quit trying to hold your stomach in, no matter who walks in the room.
> > >>You send money to PBS.
> > >>You sing along with the elevator music.
> > >>You talk about "good grass" and you're referring to someone's lawn.
> > >>Your arms are almost too short to read the newspaper.
> > >>Your back goes out more than you do.
> > >>Your ears are hairier than your head.
> > >>Your eyes won't get much worse.
> > >>Your investment in health insurance is finally beginning to pay off.
> > >>Your joints are more accurate than the National Weather Service.
> > >>Your secrets are safe with your friends; they can't remember them either.
> > >>Your supply of brain cells is finally down to a manageable size.
> > >>People send you this list ...


--MS_Mac_OE_3045021265_59922_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE> GROWING OLDER (Of Topic)</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
Gentelmen & Ladies,<BR>
Thought this was fitting.<BR>
YMOS<BR>
Ole<BR>
----------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> RV Dunkin <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:[e-mail]=
</U></FONT>>  <BR>
<B>To:</B> Harry & Sandy Harrison <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:l=
[e-mail]</U></FONT>>  ; Larry & Margie Grantham <<FON=
T COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:[e-mail]</U></FONT>>  ; =
Danita Dunkin <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:[e-mail]</U></FO=
NT>>  ; Joe & Georgie DeMello <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailt=
o:[e-mail]</U></FONT>>  ; Russell Bezette <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0=
000FF"><U>mailto:[e-mail]</U></FONT>>  <BR>
<B>Cc:</B> Terry Wahlberg <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:mamaw4for4@ao=
l.com</U></FONT>>  ; Karen Kimbell Hanson <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">=
<U>mailto:[e-mail]</U></FONT>>  ; JesCika Dunkin <<FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:[e-mail]</U></FONT>>  ; Diane &=
; Ron Desfosses <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:[e-mail]</U></FON=
T>>  ; Don & Wanda Cook <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:wico=
[e-mail]</U></FONT>>  <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 20, 2000 5:59 PM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> BENEFITS OF GROWING OLDER<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">          =
            &nbs=
p;    </FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><B>BENEFITS OF GROWING OLDER=
<BR>
</B></FONT> <BR>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">> > >>In a hostage situation you are likely to b=
e released first.<BR>
> > >>It's harder and harder for sexual harassment charges to s=
tick.<BR>
> > >>Kidnappers are not very interested in you.<BR>
> > >>No one expects you to run into a burning building.<BR>
> > >>People call at 9 p.m. and ask, "Did I wake you?"=
;<BR>
> > >>People no longer view you as a hypochondriac.<BR>
> > >>There's nothing left to learn the hard way.<BR>
> > >>Things you buy now won't wear out.<BR>
> > >>You buy a compass for the dash of your car.<BR>
> > >>You can eat dinner at 4:00<BR>
> > >>You can live without sex but not without glasses.<BR>
> > >>You can't remember the last time you laid on the floor to=
 watch television.<BR>
> > >>You consider coffee one of the most important things in l=
ife.<BR>
> > >>You constantly talk about the price of gasoline.<BR>
> > >>You enjoy hearing about other people's operations.<BR>
> > >>You get into a heated argument about pension plans.<BR>
> > >>You got cable for the weather channel.<BR>
> > >>You have a party and the neighbors don't even realize it.=
<BR>
> > >>You no longer think of speed limits as a challenge.<BR>
> > >>You quit trying to hold your stomach in, no matter who wa=
lks in the room.<BR>
> > >>You send money to PBS.<BR>
> > >>You sing along with the elevator music.<BR>
> > >>You talk about "good grass" and you're referrin=
g to someone's lawn.<BR>
> > >>Your arms are almost too short to read the newspaper.<BR>
> > >>Your back goes out more than you do.<BR>
> > >>Your ears are hairier than your head.<BR>
> > >>Your eyes won't get much worse.<BR>
> > >>Your investment in health insurance is finally beginning =
to pay off.<BR>
> > >>Your joints are more accurate than the National Weather S=
ervice.<BR>
> > >>Your secrets are safe with your friends; they can't remem=
ber them either.<BR>
> > >>Your supply of brain cells is finally down to a manageabl=
e size.<BR>
> > >>People send you this list ...<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3045021265_59922_MIME_Part--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pennyroyal oil
Date: 28 Jun 2000 12:39:42 EDT

ok I'll yet you know friend.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject:  Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 28 Jun 2000 12:47:05 EDT

Anybody know where I can get buck or elk skins cheaper than 4.50 a sq foot

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From: "Michael W. Finnie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hide sources
Date: 28 Jun 2000 09:59:16 -0700

you might give Dan or Karen a ring at 719.275.3205 (Canon City, Colorado)

http://www.tradersofthebighorn.com/

Before I wandered from the Rockies to Nor'west (Wash State) this spring, I
traded with them a bunch and they are tops in my book. They'll put you on
their mailing list for their free catalog, too.

Mike

At 12:47 PM 6/28/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Anybody know where I can get buck or elk skins cheaper than 4.50 a sq foot
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 28 Jun 2000 12:06:40 -0700



On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:15:12 EDT [e-mail] writes:
> where can I find this penaroyal oil
>
many health food stores and candel shops have it---it also grows wild in
the mid west and if you get close to it it smells like ment---usually in
farm lots ---you can also use regular ment but peniroyal works better----

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insect glaze
Date: 28 Jun 2000 17:18:24 -0600

What grade, color and how much do you want?

Thanks
Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Hides
Date: 28 Jun 2000 23:15:01 EDT

Does anybody know a source of green hides this time of year.  No hunting
seasons going on around Utah that I know of right now.  Could use 3 or 4 deer
hides.

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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Corker and lucet instructions with pictures
Date: 28 Jun 2000 22:19:59 -0500 (CDT)


Hello the group,

    I finally got the instructions for the corker cord "knitters" and the lucet
braiding on a web page and up on my site.  The address is :
www.avalon.net/~sgilbert/6beav.htm and you click on "handicrafts".
     This is my web page and this is the first time I've given out the
address to anyone.  It's still in process of building so please keep the
laughing to a dull roar, ok?  Please let me know if it works and if the
instructions for the lucet and corker make sense.
    I'll be glad to answer any questions or help anyone who needs
clarification of the instructions.

Susan Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp
proud but nervous mommy of a new web site


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From: "Frank V. Rago" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hides
Date: 28 Jun 2000 23:22:37 -0400

I just gave my last three away.  The little lady suggested I get them out of
the freezer and well since they were taking up so much room I kindly obeyed
her. She's lucky they were taking up so much room!


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 11:15 PM


> Does anybody know a source of green hides this time of year.  No hunting
> seasons going on around Utah that I know of right now.  Could use 3 or 4
deer
> hides.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hides
Date: 28 Jun 2000 23:27:41 EDT

I know that drill........"You going to tan those hides or would you like them
for dinner?  Bet they would make mountain man soup!  (I told her that she
spoke the gospel truth at that.....should of kept the comment to
myself....spent the next 4 days frantically tanning two hides before she
through them out on me.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: sgilbert recipe
Date: 28 Jun 2000 23:41:41 EDT

COULD I GET THE RECIPE FOR MOSGUITO REPELLANT. I`VE LOST IT. I WOULD
APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU.

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sgilbert recipe
Date: 28 Jun 2000 21:48:03 -0700

My 2x GreatGrandmother was a Cherokee "yarb woman" (herbalist) and
midwife.  I have a small collection of her receipts for medicines and doses
in
a ledger book she kept.  She got most of them from her mother, who taught
her the craft.  All of the receipts pre-date 1825, when Annie was born.

Annie's bug repellent for people and animals:

1/8 oz. oil of sassafras
1/8 oz. oil of eucalyptus
1/8 oz. oil of bay
1/8 oz. oil of pennyroyal
5 oz. pyrethrum tea
5 oz. alcohol  75%
mix together all ingredients and apply sparingly to skin of person or hair
of
animal.    Do not use on animals who may lick the oil off, or use on
pregnant
women.

 Pennyroyal is an abortifacient and deadly to take internally.  As little as
1
oz. of pure oil of pennyroyal can be lethal.

I make this mixture leaving out the pennyroyal and it seems to work just
fine
for me and mine.  Pyrethrum (C. cinerariaefolium) also known as insect
flower or feverfew has aromatic flowers  that can be dried and powdered.  It
is used an an insecticide in many commercial products.  It's a contact
poison for bugs.  Grow it in your garden and bees will avoid your yard.
Pyrethrum is harmless to people.

I have several other receipts for moth proofing sachets and ridding a house
of fleas, bedbugs, mice and such from her ledger, if anyone is interested.

Sue Gilbert
The totally allergic to insect venom
6 Beaver Camp



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:41 PM


> COULD I GET THE RECIPE FOR MOSGUITO REPELLANT. I`VE LOST IT. I WOULD
> APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patch knife documentation
Date: 29 Jun 2000 04:19:32 -0500

At 03:09 PM 6/27/00 -0500, Matt Porter wrote:
>To whomever it may concern,
>         Here is all the info about patch knives I mentioned.  I know there is
>stuff you all know but I'm sure it can't hurt.

Matt,

I still have my signed first edition of Grant's fine and extensive work.  I
have a few points of disagreement with a few of his conclusions.  Not
really over patch knives; he says anything that will cut a patch is a patch
knife.  He doesn't make the claim that the term is old.

What you quote is terminology he learned from paper punchers at
Friendship.  People who use plastic tackle boxes and wear blue stripe
overalls; a common specie known as "blue stripe whistlers".  They set the
terminology back in the 30's and when the old farts kept repeating it -- it
became the gospel of old.

That there were many types of knife used no one has ever disagreed
with.  Only modern authors like Madison Grant ever called them a patch knife.

The point was and is: it is not an old term.

Many of the blades shown were rehandled and remade from broken blades, some
were local blacksmith made; I still maintain the terminology is a modern
invention.  I've seen nothing to change my mind.

John...

"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every
government on Earth... and what no just government should
refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson





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From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: NOVA
Date: 29 Jun 2000 08:23:06 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BFE1A3.40782E00
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Did anyone watch the NOVA special last night on the archeological work =
on the La Salle ship "La Belle"
Facinating.. Had some nice nesting kettles with a nesting collander in =
it.. Plenty of trade goods, still packed in the crates.. Great stuff!
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
         DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

 "Knowing how is just the beginning"


------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BFE1A3.40782E00
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Did anyone watch the NOVA special last night on the=20
archeological work on the La Salle ship "La Belle"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Facinating.. Had some nice nesting kettles with a nesting collander =
in it..=20
Plenty of trade goods, still packed in the crates.. Great stuff!</DIV>
<DIV>D</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>         DOUBLE EDGE=20
FORGE<BR>    <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> "Knowing how is just the=20
beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BFE1A3.40782E00--


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From: manbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: NOVA
Date: 29 Jun 2000 10:42:41 -0400


--------------5ECDF538C64B6EC189B365CD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I didn't see it but I checked out the PBS site.  Click on the following
link and when you get there click on "Explore The Shipwreck" and then on
the highlighted items on the ship map to see pictures.  Great stuff.

 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lasalle/


Dennis Miles wrote:

> Did anyone watch the NOVA special last night on the archeological work
> on the La Salle ship "La Belle"Facinating.. Had some nice nesting
> kettles with a nesting collander in it.. Plenty of trade goods, still
> packed in the crates.. Great stuff!D  "Abair ach beagan is abair gu
> math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>     http://www.bright.net/~deforge1  "Knowing how is just the
> beginning"

--------------5ECDF538C64B6EC189B365CD
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
I didn't see it but I checked out the PBS site.  Click on the following
link and when you get there click on "Explore The Shipwreck" and then on
the highlighted items on the ship map to see pictures.  Great stuff.
<p> <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lasalle/">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lasalle/</a>
<br>
<p>Dennis Miles wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font size=-1>Did anyone watch the
NOVA special last night on the archeological work on the La Salle ship
"La Belle"</font>Facinating.. Had some nice nesting kettles with a nesting
collander in it.. Plenty of trade goods, still packed in the crates.. Great
stuff!D  <font size=-1>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"</font>
<br><font size=-1>         DOUBLE
EDGE FORGE</font>
<br><font size=-1>    <a href="http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1</a></font> <font size=-1> "Knowing
how is just the beginning"</font></blockquote>

</body>
</html>

--------------5ECDF538C64B6EC189B365CD--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hides
Date: 29 Jun 2000 09:19:56 -0600

I have several green salted deer, elk hides. Deer are $25, elk are $50

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hides
Date: 29 Jun 2000 13:43:33 EDT

how many would I need to make a buckskin shirt?

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hides
Date: 29 Jun 2000 12:32:23 -0700

How big are you. <G> A normal sized man, (not one of those metabolism
challenged individuals) will require 4 deer hides. One for the front, one
for the back and one for each arm.  One big elk hide will make a front and
back if it is long enough but you will still need a couple deer hides for
the arms. I remain.....

The Four Hide Capt.
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: When did it end?
Date: 30 Jun 2000 02:31:16 EDT

Here are some questions that I hope folks feel inspired to respond to....

When did the Rocky Mountain fur trade-era actually end?
Did it end, as Hafen argues (Mountain Men and the Fur Trade, v.1), that the
era essentially ended at the close of the 1840 roundezvous?  Although it
seems clear that buffalo robes surpassed beaver plews in economic importance
sometime during the 1840s-50s, trade in beaver and other fine furs never
stopped (continued down to today, or course.)  Carson, Williams and others
were leading trapping expeditions into the mountains well after the last
roundezvous.  So when should we set the historic "cut-off date" for the era?

Or more specifically, were the trappers that remained in the west still to be
considered "mountain men," or is that a title that should be reserved for the
pre-1840 days?  What about men that came west after 1840, hooked-up with
older mountaineers, made their way as trappers and Indian fighters, later
served as scouts for the Army-- can they be accurately called "mountain men"?

John R. Sweet

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: When did it end?
Date: 30 Jun 2000 11:11:26 -0600

John,

    The "Rendezvous Period" of the Rocky Mountain fur trade has generally
been considered the  "Golden Age" of the trade. Of course the trapping of
furs continued on a smaller scale in the following decades as you
mentioned. The "Robe Trade" in buffalo hides to me is a completely
different venture. Hunting versus trapping.
    For our purposes in historical reenactment or anthropological
experimenting if you will, it becomes necessary to assign dates to a
period to enable us to focus our research and portrayals. The "Pre-1840"
rule has been the norm for any years and does offer a logical cut off
date for the Western Fur Trade.


"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hides
Date: 30 Jun 2000 13:00:21 -0600

3-4 hides, one for front, one for back and if 3rd hide is big enough
and your arms are short enough, one for the sleeves. otherwize one
hide for each sleeve

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: Moving]
Date: 30 Jun 2000 20:12:44 EDT

Todd Glover <[e-mail]> wrote:
Buck,

If you do end up over here in Utah, you'll have to trap with the Poison
River Party, a fine bunch of men. You'd fit right in. Looking forward to
sharing a fire perhaps.

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party
_______________________________

Todd,
Just talked to him on the cell phone, said he made a few offers on severa=
l
pieces of ground around Payson Utah ! He driving in as we speak, should b=
e on
line later this evening I would think.

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flint doubles
Date: 30 Jun 2000 20:37:29 EDT

John,
Not only does Buck have a nice original flint side by side made by TWIGG =
in
16ga., he has a nice repro of a West Richards flint side by side in 20ga.=
 I
remember a half dozen years ago he got all fired up on them (flint guns) =
was
buying and trading every few weeks on flint anything until he got what he=

wanted. He had more side by side flint parts than Dixie, in fact Jack G. =
[TVM]
traded for a bunch of that suff, giving him repro flint guns in the white=
,
then Buck finished them and sold or trade them.

Concho.

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