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Internet Message Format | 2000-04-30 | 491KB

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 01 Apr 2000 07:15:28 -0600


-----Original Message-----


> Yes, to some it is cruel, especially if held for a
>prolonged time so that the horse begins to moan a bit, but it is effective,
>and beats hell out of the shoer or other handler getting hurt. The animal
is
>not left with any permanent injuries and seems none the worse for it.

Good advice Bill, since I sound like I am an advocate of twitching horses, I
should say that it can be cruel and inhumane if used improperely. A chain
twitch like Bill mentioned I have never used, although some folks do. While
a twitch on the lip does produce some pain which results in taking the
horses mind off of other matters, that isn't the primary reason for using
one, in other words, you just need gentle pressure to have a positive
effect. In my experience a regular rope twitch works for me for most
situations, probably the most common situation I use it is when tubing a
horse for collic, most horses even if there good ones generally don't care
for that, but a twitch is all thats needed to get it done in a minute or
two....for situations when a twitch may not restrain a horse enough, you
really have to skip it and just go to the next level, no use in getting
maimed or killed that isn't any fun.

northwoods



 I
>prefer to use a soft cotton rope of about 1/2 inch, tied off to one side of
>the halter, run under the upper lip and tight against the gum, over to the
>other side of the halter where I use a sliding knot so the rope can be
>tightened or loosened as needed. (it doesn't take much pressure). It has
the
>effect of putting pressure on the gum to release the chemical, plus it
gives
>the horse something to think about besides what is going on under or around
>it. I used this on rank or obstreperous horses for years when I was shoeing
>and it worked very well. I later watched an old experienced farrier, who
had
>a helper holding a horse with a chain twitch, get his upper leg broken in 5
>places. It about ended his career.
>Bill
>-----Original Message-----
>From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:40 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
>
>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: March 31, 2000 7:12 PM
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
>>
>>
>>>Actually, I've seen several vet's in our area of the country use twitches
>>as
>>>described by 'northwoods'.  I, too, inquired about the humane aspect of
>the
>>>instrument which is readily sold in veterinary supply houses.  I was told
>>>that when used properly it releases dopamine (a form of pain killer) when
>>>the horse is undergoing some form of potentially painful treatment.  I
>will
>>>leave its use in the hands of someone more skillful than I.
>>
>>Not dopamine John, endorphines, which is a morphine like chemical. Really
>>guys, twitches are not inhumane or difficult to use. If you ever need to
>>restrain a horse to do teeth work, or check out a foot on an untrained
>>horse, or whatever, it can be done simply by just grabbing the upper lip
in
>>your hand and twisting to apply pressure. Twitches are not inhumane, sorry
>>to be redundant, but this method predates the mountain man era by a few
>>millenia although I am sure that they were aware of how they were used,
and
>>I bet they didn't hesitate to use them when needed. I have also read where
>a
>>trapper would have to go through the same ritual every morning, which was,
>>sneak up real careful like on his hobbled mule, and grab it. Then he would
>>lead it to camp and grab its pack, and then very deftly grab it's ear and
>>bite down while throwing the pannier on its back. The darn mule absolutely
>>would not stand to be loaded if this wasn't done. Every morning the same
>>ritual would have to be repeated. Horses and mules are funny in that they
>>can make your life one heck of a lot easier, or make it very miserable.
Hey
>>Rick if your interested in the history of horsemanship read about the
>>Mongols. Lately I have been doing just that, in preparation for a trip
i'll
>>be taking to outer Mongolia in August on a 2 week horse trek into the
>>province of Arhangay. Fun stuff, talk about unspoiled virgin country...
>>
>>northwoods
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
Date: 01 Apr 2000 06:59:14 -0800

northwoods,
Question???  During this process of what appears to be some extreme heating
and slow cooling, aren't you annealing what would otherwise be (somewhat)
hard metal?
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:18 PM


> Larry suggest you get Journal of Historical Armsmaking Volume 5 (Colonial
> Williamsburg), which is available from the NMLRA for about $8. It
describes
> the different processes they have experimented with in the past for
charcoal
> bluing and also talks about the prevalence of charcoal bluing on original
> guns. If you don't want to buy the book here is the basic method, as told
to
> me by Eric Kettenburg at [e-mail] any questions you have he could
> answer i'm sure:
> "Regarding the charcoal bluing process I mentioned, there really isn't
much
> to it.  Polish the barrel as normal and degrease inside and out (breech
> threads too!)  You don't need to be obsessive about it though.  This
process
> will NOT work with barrels w/ soldered-on draw loops or front sights (ie
> smoothbores) unless you attach them afterward.  You need about three 20
> pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.  Dig yourself a long
> firepit @ 7 ft long and 2 ft wide and dump 2-4" of sand in the bottom.
Pile
> in the charcoal and light that fire baby!  YEE HAA!  When it seems to be
> burning all throughout, take two loooooong pairs of tongs and stick that
> barrel right down into the middle of it.  Pile on more charcoal.   Let
burn
> slowly for 2-3 hours and remove the barrel.  Let cool slowly!!!  Wipe down
> w/ a wool cloth and oil the heck out of it.  Most beautiful blued barrel
> you've ever seen, usually a deep translucent blue-gray w/ hints of some
> mottled blues like a color case.  This seems to be the most authentic
> appearance.   I do these a lot so I built up (instead of digging a pit) a
> square trough out of fieldstone (the old walls are everywhere around
here!)
> and lined it well with sand.  This has the advantage of allowing you to
> control the air intake to the fire w. sheet metal over top to keep it at
the
> black-red heat.  I've heard other versions that heat the barrel in a metal
> trough from below, trough full of powdered charcoal and barrel removed
> periodically and rubbed down with lime to ensure a slightly more even blue
> but this seems overly complicated to me.  Lots of burned fingers, wasted
> time etc.   The way I've been doing it seems to well-match the originals
> I've been fortunate enough to see.  The Journal of Historical Armsmaking
> Vol. 5 has a small article on this process but they (Williamsburg) do it
the
> complicated way.  Their barrels seem grayer than mine and the colr does
not
> seem to be as thick.  To each their own!  DO NOT do this to a barrel if
> you've inlet brass or silver inlays into the barrel (ie nameplates etc)
> because the two diff. metals will expand/contract at different rates and
it
> will never look right again.  If you try to tighten it back up, you'll
ruin
> the blue w/ the file or hammer.  I wouldn't want to use this process on
> oct/round barrels either for the same reason:  The vastly different matal
> thicknesses throughout the barrel combined w/ the high heat are inviting
> warpage.  YIKES!  I've only seen remnants of this blue on oct. rifle or
> smooth-rifle barrels anyway.  Well, that's my two cents.  Fire up the
> charcoal and break out the hot doggies!  Yes, I do cook with charcoal
while
> it's burning and stop laughing...no need to waste a good fire!
> Eric Kettenburg"
>
> northwoods
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
Date: 01 Apr 2000 07:11:28 -0800

Thanks for the correction....
John F


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:43 PM


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: March 31, 2000 7:12 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate
>
>
> >Actually, I've seen several vet's in our area of the country use twitches
> as
> >described by 'northwoods'.  I, too, inquired about the humane aspect of
the
> >instrument which is readily sold in veterinary supply houses.  I was told
> >that when used properly it releases dopamine (a form of pain killer) when
> >the horse is undergoing some form of potentially painful treatment.  I
will
> >leave its use in the hands of someone more skillful than I.
>
> Not dopamine John, endorphines, which is a morphine like chemical. Really
> guys, twitches are not inhumane or difficult to use. If you ever need to
> restrain a horse to do teeth work, or check out a foot on an untrained
> horse, or whatever, it can be done simply by just grabbing the upper lip
in
> your hand and twisting to apply pressure. Twitches are not inhumane, sorry
> to be redundant, but this method predates the mountain man era by a few
> millenia although I am sure that they were aware of how they were used,
and
> I bet they didn't hesitate to use them when needed. I have also read where
a
> trapper would have to go through the same ritual every morning, which was,
> sneak up real careful like on his hobbled mule, and grab it. Then he would
> lead it to camp and grab its pack, and then very deftly grab it's ear and
> bite down while throwing the pannier on its back. The darn mule absolutely
> would not stand to be loaded if this wasn't done. Every morning the same
> ritual would have to be repeated. Horses and mules are funny in that they
> can make your life one heck of a lot easier, or make it very miserable.
Hey
> Rick if your interested in the history of horsemanship read about the
> Mongols. Lately I have been doing just that, in preparation for a trip
i'll
> be taking to outer Mongolia in August on a 2 week horse trek into the
> province of Arhangay. Fun stuff, talk about unspoiled virgin country...
>
> northwoods
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
Date: 01 Apr 2000 09:44:43 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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John,
  You are exactly right.  By using that process you would be annealing =
the barrel, but keep in mind the old barrels were made of wrought iron, =
not steel.  There in lies another question.  How would wrought iron =
react to heating ?  I still can't figure how they kept the barrels from =
warping, when they got them that hot.  I think we need  " Hawk ", down =
in Florida, to weigh in on this subject.  Hawk, if you out there, fill =
us in on the details.
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:59 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
   =20
   =20
    northwoods,
    Question???  During this process of what appears to be some extreme =
heating
    and slow cooling, aren't you annealing what would otherwise be =
(somewhat)
    hard metal?
    John Funk
   =20
   =20
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
    To: <[e-mail]>
    Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:18 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
   =20
   =20
    > Larry suggest you get Journal of Historical Armsmaking Volume 5 =
(Colonial
    > Williamsburg), which is available from the NMLRA for about $8. It
    describes
    > the different processes they have experimented with in the past =
for
    charcoal
    > bluing and also talks about the prevalence of charcoal bluing on =
original
    > guns. If you don't want to buy the book here is the basic method, =
as told
    to
    > me by Eric Kettenburg at [e-mail] any questions you have =
he could
    > answer i'm sure:
    > "Regarding the charcoal bluing process I mentioned, there really =
isn't
    much
    > to it.  Polish the barrel as normal and degrease inside and out =
(breech
    > threads too!)  You don't need to be obsessive about it though.  =
This
    process
    > will NOT work with barrels w/ soldered-on draw loops or front =
sights (ie
    > smoothbores) unless you attach them afterward.  You need about =
three 20
    > pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.  Dig yourself =
a long
    > firepit @ 7 ft long and 2 ft wide and dump 2-4" of sand in the =
bottom.
    Pile
    > in the charcoal and light that fire baby!  YEE HAA!  When it seems =
to be
    > burning all throughout, take two loooooong pairs of tongs and =
stick that
    > barrel right down into the middle of it.  Pile on more charcoal.   =
Let
    burn
    > slowly for 2-3 hours and remove the barrel.  Let cool slowly!!!  =
Wipe down
    > w/ a wool cloth and oil the heck out of it.  Most beautiful blued =
barrel
    > you've ever seen, usually a deep translucent blue-gray w/ hints of =
some
    > mottled blues like a color case.  This seems to be the most =
authentic
    > appearance.   I do these a lot so I built up (instead of digging a =
pit) a
    > square trough out of fieldstone (the old walls are everywhere =
around
    here!)
    > and lined it well with sand.  This has the advantage of allowing =
you to
    > control the air intake to the fire w. sheet metal over top to keep =
it at
    the
    > black-red heat.  I've heard other versions that heat the barrel in =
a metal
    > trough from below, trough full of powdered charcoal and barrel =
removed
    > periodically and rubbed down with lime to ensure a slightly more =
even blue
    > but this seems overly complicated to me.  Lots of burned fingers, =
wasted
    > time etc.   The way I've been doing it seems to well-match the =
originals
    > I've been fortunate enough to see.  The Journal of Historical =
Armsmaking
    > Vol. 5 has a small article on this process but they (Williamsburg) =
do it
    the
    > complicated way.  Their barrels seem grayer than mine and the colr =
does
    not
    > seem to be as thick.  To each their own!  DO NOT do this to a =
barrel if
    > you've inlet brass or silver inlays into the barrel (ie nameplates =
etc)
    > because the two diff. metals will expand/contract at different =
rates and
    it
    > will never look right again.  If you try to tighten it back up, =
you'll
    ruin
    > the blue w/ the file or hammer.  I wouldn't want to use this =
process on
    > oct/round barrels either for the same reason:  The vastly =
different matal
    > thicknesses throughout the barrel combined w/ the high heat are =
inviting
    > warpage.  YIKES!  I've only seen remnants of this blue on oct. =
rifle or
    > smooth-rifle barrels anyway.  Well, that's my two cents.  Fire up =
the
    > charcoal and break out the hot doggies!  Yes, I do cook with =
charcoal
    while
    > it's burning and stop laughing...no need to waste a good fire!
    > Eric Kettenburg"
    >
    > northwoods
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ----------------------
    > hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
    >
   =20
   =20
    ----------------------
    hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  You are =
exactly=20
right.  By using that process you would be annealing the barrel, =
but keep=20
in mind the old barrels were made of wrought iron, not steel.  =
There in=20
lies another question.  How would wrought iron react to heating =
?  I=20
still can't figure how they kept the barrels from warping, when they got =
them=20
that hot.  I think we need  " Hawk ", down in =
Florida, to=20
weigh in on this subject.  Hawk, if you out there, fill us in on =
the=20
details.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John C. Funk, Jr. <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:59 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List: GUN=20
    BLUEING ?<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>northwoods,<BR>Question???  =
During this=20
    process of what appears to be some extreme heating<BR>and slow =
cooling,=20
    aren't you annealing what would otherwise be (somewhat)<BR>hard=20
    metal?<BR>John Funk<BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: =

    northwoods <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>To=
:=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR>Sent:=20
    Friday, March 31, 2000 5:18 PM<BR>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN =
BLUEING=20
    ?<BR><BR><BR>> Larry suggest you get Journal of Historical =
Armsmaking=20
    Volume 5 (Colonial<BR>> Williamsburg), which is available from =
the NMLRA=20
    for about $8. It<BR>describes<BR>> the different processes they =
have=20
    experimented with in the past for<BR>charcoal<BR>> bluing and =
also talks=20
    about the prevalence of charcoal bluing on original<BR>> guns. If =
you=20
    don't want to buy the book here is the basic method, as =
told<BR>to<BR>>=20
    me by Eric Kettenburg at <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> any =
questions you have=20
    he could<BR>> answer i'm sure:<BR>> "Regarding the =
charcoal=20
    bluing process I mentioned, there really isn't<BR>much<BR>> to =
it. =20
    Polish the barrel as normal and degrease inside and out =
(breech<BR>>=20
    threads too!)  You don't need to be obsessive about it =
though. =20
    This<BR>process<BR>> will NOT work with barrels w/ soldered-on =
draw loops=20
    or front sights (ie<BR>> smoothbores) unless you attach them=20
    afterward.  You need about three 20<BR>> pound bags or real =
hardwood=20
    charcoal - NOT briquets.  Dig yourself a long<BR>> firepit @ =
7 ft=20
    long and 2 ft wide and dump 2-4" of sand in the =
bottom.<BR>Pile<BR>>=20
    in the charcoal and light that fire baby!  YEE HAA!  When =
it seems=20
    to be<BR>> burning all throughout, take two loooooong pairs of =
tongs and=20
    stick that<BR>> barrel right down into the middle of it.  =
Pile on=20
    more charcoal.   Let<BR>burn<BR>> slowly for 2-3 hours =
and=20
    remove the barrel.  Let cool slowly!!!  Wipe down<BR>> =
w/ a=20
    wool cloth and oil the heck out of it.  Most beautiful blued=20
    barrel<BR>> you've ever seen, usually a deep translucent =
blue-gray w/=20
    hints of some<BR>> mottled blues like a color case.  This =
seems to=20
    be the most authentic<BR>> appearance.   I do these a =
lot so I=20
    built up (instead of digging a pit) a<BR>> square trough out of=20
    fieldstone (the old walls are everywhere around<BR>here!)<BR>> =
and lined=20
    it well with sand.  This has the advantage of allowing you =
to<BR>>=20
    control the air intake to the fire w. sheet metal over top to keep =
it=20
    at<BR>the<BR>> black-red heat.  I've heard other versions =
that heat=20
    the barrel in a metal<BR>> trough from below, trough full of =
powdered=20
    charcoal and barrel removed<BR>> periodically and rubbed down =
with lime=20
    to ensure a slightly more even blue<BR>> but this seems overly=20
    complicated to me.  Lots of burned fingers, wasted<BR>> time =

    etc.   The way I've been doing it seems to well-match the=20
    originals<BR>> I've been fortunate enough to see.  The =
Journal of=20
    Historical Armsmaking<BR>> Vol. 5 has a small article on this =
process but=20
    they (Williamsburg) do it<BR>the<BR>> complicated way.  =
Their=20
    barrels seem grayer than mine and the colr does<BR>not<BR>> seem =
to be as=20
    thick.  To each their own!  DO NOT do this to a barrel =
if<BR>>=20
    you've inlet brass or silver inlays into the barrel (ie nameplates=20
    etc)<BR>> because the two diff. metals will expand/contract at =
different=20
    rates and<BR>it<BR>> will never look right again.  If you =
try to=20
    tighten it back up, you'll<BR>ruin<BR>> the blue w/ the file or=20
    hammer.  I wouldn't want to use this process on<BR>> =
oct/round=20
    barrels either for the same reason:  The vastly different =
matal<BR>>=20
    thicknesses throughout the barrel combined w/ the high heat are=20
    inviting<BR>> warpage.  YIKES!  I've only seen remnants =
of this=20
    blue on oct. rifle or<BR>> smooth-rifle barrels anyway.  =
Well,=20
    that's my two cents.  Fire up the<BR>> charcoal and break =
out the=20
    hot doggies!  Yes, I do cook with charcoal<BR>while<BR>> =
it's=20
    burning and stop laughing...no need to waste a good fire!<BR>> =
Eric=20
    Kettenburg"<BR>><BR>>=20
    =
northwoods<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>=
;<BR>><BR>><BR>>=20
    ----------------------<BR>> hist_text list info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR>><BR><BR><BR>------------=
----------<BR>hist_text=20
    list info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
Date: 01 Apr 2000 17:07:08 -0500

pentelton and all
most original muzzle loading barrels were dead soft---they were the most
accurate according to the old-timers I have known---some were even cast
steel then they used the fireblue process to get out the hard spots in
the barrel along with finishing process----some will warp a bit but can
be easily straightened because they are dead soft---a hammer forged
barrel will have a lot of hoop stresses in the barrel and they were all
heat blued or anealed and finished in the same process---many of the old
remington muzzle loading and tyrone barrels came heat blued and they did
this to take the stress out of the barrel.   remington charged extra for
heat blued barrels---in the 1850-70 time span---

if you look in ned roberts "the muzzle loading caplock rifle and also in
dillen it will talk about heat blueing stressing and straightening the
barrels---they used a bow and a string going thru the bore of the barrel
and bent it back where it should be---have straightened a couple of
barrels myself---but you dont have to do it except if you have one that
is bored out of line and then also bent due to the milling stress.
normally the heat blue is a even rise in tempeture and a even degradation
so there is not that much warpage involved only the steel goes dead soft
and you get the beautiful slick blue or blue gray color---a lot of the
color is deturmined by how you prep the barrel before applying the heat
and if it is covered with sand or ashes or bone meal was used by some---

have seen several gunsmith records or journels and they dont call it heat
blueing always---some call it deadning or unstressing a barrel and some
call it naturalizing a barrel.  depends on the area of the country and
the riflesmith---most of the heat blueing was done with charcole and not
with cole in a furnice---the journel references from malcom fordney have
a  couple of entries one is naturalizing a barrel and another releving a
barrel and both indicate a straitning process included---I thank they are
both basically the same and is done by doing the heat blueing
process---and the blueing was just a second benifit.

bill large always thought that the softer the steel the better the barrel
(MOST ACCURATE) in his opinion---todays steel barrel blanks are stress
relieved at the factory before rifleing--that costs less for cutters to
rifle it---

Just in my humbel opinion if I would heat blue the barrel i would then
check it with a string and bow to make sure there is not major
warpage---there should not be because the temperature was not up to the
temper level and no quinching was done---the warping comes from the fast
cooling in my estimation---(kina like relieving and tempering in bone
meal---)(less warpage)

sorry i couldnt give you guys more info but thats about all i know on the
subject---but i do know how to straiten a barrel and it dont take much
bend to get it back on or  doing the regulating process on the crown---or
muzzel---

remember there was even temperture up and even tempiture in the cooling
process---thus in my mind you had minimum warpage and only anealing and
stress relieving of the barrel hoop stresses from boreing ---milling and
rifleing---it should be a better barrel for this
process---again---remington did it---tyrone did it---malcomb fordney did
it it must do something good---besides twist the barrel out of
shape---just my humbel opinion of course---kettenburg should be the man
to ask this question----i would be interested in his response??????

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce


On Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:44:43 -0800 "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> John,
>   You are exactly right.  By using that process you would be
> annealing the barrel, but keep in mind the old barrels were made of
> wrought iron, not steel.  There in lies another question.  How would
> wrought iron react to heating ?  I still can't figure how they kept
> the barrels from warping, when they got them that hot.  I think we
> need  " Hawk ", down in Florida, to weigh in on this subject.  Hawk,
> if you out there, fill us in on the details.
> Pendleton
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
>     To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>     Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:59 AM
>     Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
>
>
>     northwoods,
>     Question???  During this process of what appears to be some
> extreme heating
>     and slow cooling, aren't you annealing what would otherwise be
> (somewhat)
>     hard metal?
>     John Funk
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
>     To: <[e-mail]>
>     Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:18 PM
>     Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
>
>
>     > Larry suggest you get Journal of Historical Armsmaking Volume
> 5 (Colonial
>     > Williamsburg), which is available from the NMLRA for about $8.
> It
>     describes
>     > the different processes they have experimented with in the
> past for
>     charcoal
>     > bluing and also talks about the prevalence of charcoal bluing
> on original
>     > guns. If you don't want to buy the book here is the basic
> method, as told
>     to
>     > me by Eric Kettenburg at [e-mail] any questions you
> have he could
>     > answer i'm sure:
>     > "Regarding the charcoal bluing process I mentioned, there
> really isn't
>     much
>     > to it.  Polish the barrel as normal and degrease inside and
> out (breech
>     > threads too!)  You don't need to be obsessive about it though.
>  This
>     process
>     > will NOT work with barrels w/ soldered-on draw loops or front
> sights (ie
>     > smoothbores) unless you attach them afterward.  You need about
> three 20
>     > pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.  Dig
> yourself a long
>     > firepit @ 7 ft long and 2 ft wide and dump 2-4" of sand in the
> bottom.
>     Pile
>     > in the charcoal and light that fire baby!  YEE HAA!  When it
> seems to be
>     > burning all throughout, take two loooooong pairs of tongs and
> stick that
>     > barrel right down into the middle of it.  Pile on more
> charcoal.   Let
>     burn
>     > slowly for 2-3 hours and remove the barrel.  Let cool
> slowly!!!  Wipe down
>     > w/ a wool cloth and oil the heck out of it.  Most beautiful
> blued barrel
>     > you've ever seen, usually a deep translucent blue-gray w/
> hints of some
>     > mottled blues like a color case.  This seems to be the most
> authentic
>     > appearance.   I do these a lot so I built up (instead of
> digging a pit) a
>     > square trough out of fieldstone (the old walls are everywhere
> around
>     here!)
>     > and lined it well with sand.  This has the advantage of
> allowing you to
>     > control the air intake to the fire w. sheet metal over top to
> keep it at
>     the
>     > black-red heat.  I've heard other versions that heat the
> barrel in a metal
>     > trough from below, trough full of powdered charcoal and barrel
> removed
>     > periodically and rubbed down with lime to ensure a slightly
> more even blue
>     > but this seems overly complicated to me.  Lots of burned
> fingers, wasted
>     > time etc.   The way I've been doing it seems to well-match the
> originals
>     > I've been fortunate enough to see.  The Journal of Historical
> Armsmaking
>     > Vol. 5 has a small article on this process but they
> (Williamsburg) do it
>     the
>     > complicated way.  Their barrels seem grayer than mine and the
> colr does
>     not
>     > seem to be as thick.  To each their own!  DO NOT do this to a
> barrel if
>     > you've inlet brass or silver inlays into the barrel (ie
> nameplates etc)
>     > because the two diff. metals will expand/contract at different
> rates and
>     it
>     > will never look right again.  If you try to tighten it back
> up, you'll
>     ruin
>     > the blue w/ the file or hammer.  I wouldn't want to use this
> process on
>     > oct/round barrels either for the same reason:  The vastly
> different matal
>     > thicknesses throughout the barrel combined w/ the high heat
> are inviting
>     > warpage.  YIKES!  I've only seen remnants of this blue on oct.
> rifle or
>     > smooth-rifle barrels anyway.  Well, that's my two cents.  Fire
> up the
>     > charcoal and break out the hot doggies!  Yes, I do cook with
> charcoal
>     while
>     > it's burning and stop laughing...no need to waste a good fire!
>     > Eric Kettenburg"
>     >
>     > northwoods
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > ----------------------
>     > hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>     >
>
>
>     ----------------------
>     hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
Date: 01 Apr 2000 18:46:14 -0600


-----Original Message-----


>northwoods,
>Question???  During this process of what appears to be some extreme heating
>and slow cooling, aren't you annealing what would otherwise be (somewhat)
>hard metal?


I'm sure Hawk answered your question for you. I know he can answer any that
I can think of asking him.  A few months ago I got to wondering how the
wrought iron barrels on some of the originals compared to modern
muzzleloader barrels, in terms of hardness. I was concerned with comparing
the wearability, and resistance to corrosion between both old and new
actually. so I called Colerain and Getz. Apparently they both use an alloy
called 12L14, which has a high amount of lead put into it. This is to
increase the machinibility. Even modern muzzleloader barrels are soft soft
soft.
Regarding the old barrels that where hand forged. Even if they weren't put
through the process of fire bluing, the last step after forging, and before
the initial reaming was done, was to anneal the barrel to make the boring
process possible. So all handforged barrels, as far as I can tell, were in
an annealed state, even if they weren't fire blued. Allthough since wrought
iron has no carbon in it, it really couldn't be to hard, unless the makers
were just removing the work hardening from the repeated forging that was
done. Then again i've had people tell me that wrought can't be made harder,
If theres no carbon in it, it can't be made hard. Others tell me that it can
be made hard. I know of at least one very well respected smith who has had
good luck by "packing " wrought to make somewhat harder. Well regardless, I
guess they wanted barrels soft.This probably has to do with, as Hawk pointed
out from Bill Larges experience and other old timers, accuracy, although I
have never heard of the results of someone testing this. I believe that
certain muzzleloader barrel makers today use a harder alloy than 12L14, and
they are very accurate, Green Mountain comes to mind. Mike Rock would know
the answer to that, he knows everything about barrels and then some.Larry P.
talked about references to trade guns having blued barrels, check out
Charles Hansons book The Northwest Gun, that will give you a good idea of
just how prevalent it was on them. To me it is a real beautiful finish.
Hawk, did you get that 20# gobbler yet?

northwoods



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
Date: 01 Apr 2000 14:12:13 -0600

--=====================_149930343==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 07:18 PM 3/31/00 -0600, northwoods wrote that Eric Kettenburg wrote:
>"...  You need about three 20
>pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.  "


Restaurant suppliers who service the steak house trade should have real
charcoal for sale.

John...

"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every
government on Earth... and what no just government should
refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson




--=====================_149930343==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3>At 07:18 PM 3/31/00 -0600, northwoods wrote that Eric
Kettenburg wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>"...  You need about three 20<br>
pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.
"</font></blockquote><br>
<br>
Restaurant suppliers who service the steak house trade should have real
charcoal for sale. <br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>

<font size=3><b>"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to
against every government on Earth... and what no just government should
refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></b></html>

--=====================_149930343==_.ALT--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp
Date: 01 Apr 2000 21:29:05 -0500 (EST)

it's due to the one material component mechanically mixed into the iron
that gives wrought iron it's unique and excellent properties: 2-4% SLAG,
i.e., iron silicate, i.e., iron-silicon-oxygen compound -

" In connection with the heating of wrought iron, preparatory to ...
forging operations, it should be mentioned that there is very little
possibility of burning the metal. ... at higher temperatures a slag
forms on a wrought iron surface and serves to protect the metal against
the danger of oxidation.  A temperature in the range between 2100.F to
2200.F corresponding to a bright yellow color [of the workpiece], will
give the best results.  This is applicable to all types of forging
work."

c.f. Wrought Iron, by James Aston and Edward Story (both were
metallurgists at A.M. Byers Company, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania), 1939,
pp. 65-67.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
Date: 01 Apr 2000 20:37:43 -0800

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John,
  You're probably right.  Charcoal Briquets would create hot spots that =
would give a uneven heat.
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:09 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
   =20
   =20
    At 07:18 PM 3/31/00 -0600, northwoods wrote that Eric Kettenburg =
wrote:
   =20
        "...  You need about three 20
        pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.  "
   =20
   =20
    Restaurant suppliers who service the steak house trade should have =
real charcoal for sale.=20
   =20
    John...
   =20
    "A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every =
government on Earth... and what no just government should refuse."  =
--Thomas Jefferson
   =20
   =20
   =20


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<HEAD>

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  You're =
probably=20
right.  Charcoal Briquets would create hot spots that would give a =
uneven=20
heat.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:09 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List: GUN=20
    BLUEING ?<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT size=3D3>At 07:18 PM 3/31/00 =
-0600,=20
    northwoods wrote that Eric Kettenburg wrote:<BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>"...  You need about three=20
        20<BR>pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.  =

        "</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Restaurant suppliers who =
service the steak=20
    house trade should have real charcoal for sale. =
<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><FONT=20
    size=3D3><B>"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled =
to against=20
    every government on Earth... and what no just government should=20
    refuse."  --Thomas=20
Jefferson<BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT></B></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
Date: 01 Apr 2000 20:37:58 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Northwoods,
  I can't seem to find my copy of The Northwest Gun by Charlie Hanson.  =
I do have a copy of the letter from the AFC to J.J. Henry, where they =
were ordering their guns for the 1829 rendezvous.  They specified all =
barrels were to be blued and stocks were to be varnished.
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 4:42 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
   =20
   =20
   =20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: April 01, 2000 8:59 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
   =20
   =20
    >northwoods,
    >Question???  During this process of what appears to be some extreme =
heating
    >and slow cooling, aren't you annealing what would otherwise be =
(somewhat)
    >hard metal?
   =20
   =20
    I'm sure Hawk answered your question for you. I know he can answer =
any that
    I can think of asking him.  A few months ago I got to wondering how =
the
    wrought iron barrels on some of the originals compared to modern
    muzzleloader barrels, in terms of hardness. I was concerned with =
comparing
    the wearability, and resistance to corrosion between both old and =
new
    actually. so I called Colerain and Getz. Apparently they both use an =
alloy
    called 12L14, which has a high amount of lead put into it. This is =
to
    increase the machinibility. Even modern muzzleloader barrels are =
soft soft
    soft.
    Regarding the old barrels that where hand forged. Even if they =
weren't put
    through the process of fire bluing, the last step after forging, and =
before
    the initial reaming was done, was to anneal the barrel to make the =
boring
    process possible. So all handforged barrels, as far as I can tell, =
were in
    an annealed state, even if they weren't fire blued. Allthough since =
wrought
    iron has no carbon in it, it really couldn't be to hard, unless the =
makers
    were just removing the work hardening from the repeated forging that =
was
    done. Then again i've had people tell me that wrought can't be made =
harder,
    If theres no carbon in it, it can't be made hard. Others tell me =
that it can
    be made hard. I know of at least one very well respected smith who =
has had
    good luck by "packing " wrought to make somewhat harder. Well =
regardless, I
    guess they wanted barrels soft.This probably has to do with, as Hawk =
pointed
    out from Bill Larges experience and other old timers, accuracy, =
although I
    have never heard of the results of someone testing this. I believe =
that
    certain muzzleloader barrel makers today use a harder alloy than =
12L14, and
    they are very accurate, Green Mountain comes to mind. Mike Rock =
would know
    the answer to that, he knows everything about barrels and then =
some.Larry P.
    talked about references to trade guns having blued barrels, check =
out
    Charles Hansons book The Northwest Gun, that will give you a good =
idea of
    just how prevalent it was on them. To me it is a real beautiful =
finish.
    Hawk, did you get that 20# gobbler yet?
   =20
    northwoods
   =20
   =20
   =20
    ----------------------
    hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Northwoods,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  I can't =
seem to find=20
my copy of The Northwest Gun by Charlie Hanson.  I do have a copy =
of the=20
letter from the AFC to J.J. Henry, where they were ordering their guns =
for the=20
1829 rendezvous.  They specified all barrels were to be blued and =
stocks=20
were to be varnished.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>northwoods <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, April 01, 2000 4:42 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List: GUN=20
    BLUEING ?<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR>-----Original =
Message-----<BR>From: John=20
    C. Funk, Jr. <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>To=
: <A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR>Date:=20
    April 01, 2000 8:59 AM<BR>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING=20
    ?<BR><BR><BR>>northwoods,<BR>>Question???  During this =
process of=20
    what appears to be some extreme heating<BR>>and slow cooling, =
aren't you=20
    annealing what would otherwise be (somewhat)<BR>>hard=20
    metal?<BR><BR><BR>I'm sure Hawk answered your question for you. I =
know he=20
    can answer any that<BR>I can think of asking him.  A few months =
ago I=20
    got to wondering how the<BR>wrought iron barrels on some of the =
originals=20
    compared to modern<BR>muzzleloader barrels, in terms of hardness. I =
was=20
    concerned with comparing<BR>the wearability, and resistance to =
corrosion=20
    between both old and new<BR>actually. so I called Colerain and Getz. =

    Apparently they both use an alloy<BR>called 12L14, which has a high =
amount=20
    of lead put into it. This is to<BR>increase the machinibility. Even =
modern=20
    muzzleloader barrels are soft soft<BR>soft.<BR>Regarding the old =
barrels=20
    that where hand forged. Even if they weren't put<BR>through the =
process of=20
    fire bluing, the last step after forging, and before<BR>the initial =
reaming=20
    was done, was to anneal the barrel to make the boring<BR>process =
possible.=20
    So all handforged barrels, as far as I can tell, were in<BR>an =
annealed=20
    state, even if they weren't fire blued. Allthough since =
wrought<BR>iron has=20
    no carbon in it, it really couldn't be to hard, unless the =
makers<BR>were=20
    just removing the work hardening from the repeated forging that =
was<BR>done.=20
    Then again i've had people tell me that wrought can't be made =
harder,<BR>If=20
    theres no carbon in it, it can't be made hard. Others tell me that =
it=20
    can<BR>be made hard. I know of at least one very well respected =
smith who=20
    has had<BR>good luck by "packing " wrought to make =
somewhat=20
    harder. Well regardless, I<BR>guess they wanted barrels soft.This =
probably=20
    has to do with, as Hawk pointed<BR>out from Bill Larges experience =
and other=20
    old timers, accuracy, although I<BR>have never heard of the results =
of=20
    someone testing this. I believe that<BR>certain muzzleloader barrel =
makers=20
    today use a harder alloy than 12L14, and<BR>they are very accurate, =
Green=20
    Mountain comes to mind. Mike Rock would know<BR>the answer to that, =
he knows=20
    everything about barrels and then some.Larry P.<BR>talked about =
references=20
    to trade guns having blued barrels, check out<BR>Charles Hansons =
book The=20
    Northwest Gun, that will give you a good idea of<BR>just how =
prevalent it=20
    was on them. To me it is a real beautiful finish.<BR>Hawk, did you =
get that=20
    20# gobbler=20
    =
yet?<BR><BR>northwoods<BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=
=20
    list info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp
Date: 01 Apr 2000 20:40:44 -0800

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Jon,
  Good info !  I do some smithin, but have never worked with wrought =
iron.
Thanks,
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: JON MARINETTI <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:29 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp
   =20
   =20
    it's due to the one material component mechanically mixed into the =
iron
    that gives wrought iron it's unique and excellent properties: 2-4% =
SLAG,
    i.e., iron silicate, i.e., iron-silicon-oxygen compound -=20
   =20
    " In connection with the heating of wrought iron, preparatory to ...
    forging operations, it should be mentioned that there is very little
    possibility of burning the metal. ... at higher temperatures a slag
    forms on a wrought iron surface and serves to protect the metal =
against
    the danger of oxidation.  A temperature in the range between 2100.F =
to
    2200.F corresponding to a bright yellow color [of the workpiece], =
will
    give the best results.  This is applicable to all types of forging
    work."
   =20
    c.f. Wrought Iron, by James Aston and Edward Story (both were
    metallurgists at A.M. Byers Company, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania), =
1939,
    pp. 65-67.
   =20
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    from Michigan
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   =20
   =20
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jon,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  Good =
info !  I=20
do some smithin, but have never worked with wrought iron.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>JON MARINETTI <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><B=
R><B>To:=20
    </B><A =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:29 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: =
why=20
    wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>it's due to =
the one=20
    material component mechanically mixed into the iron<BR>that gives =
wrought=20
    iron it's unique and excellent properties: 2-4% SLAG,<BR>i.e., iron=20
    silicate, i.e., iron-silicon-oxygen compound - <BR><BR>" In =
connection=20
    with the heating of wrought iron, preparatory to ...<BR>forging =
operations,=20
    it should be mentioned that there is very little<BR>possibility of =
burning=20
    the metal. ... at higher temperatures a slag<BR>forms on a wrought =
iron=20
    surface and serves to protect the metal against<BR>the danger of=20
    oxidation.  A temperature in the range between 2100.F =
to<BR>2200.F=20
    corresponding to a bright yellow color [of the workpiece], =
will<BR>give the=20
    best results.  This is applicable to all types of=20
    forging<BR>work."<BR><BR>c.f. Wrought Iron, by James Aston and =
Edward=20
    Story (both were<BR>metallurgists at A.M. Byers Company, Pittsburgh, =

    Pennsylvania), 1939,<BR>pp. =
65-67.<BR><BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>from=20
    =
Michigan<BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR=
>hist_text=20
    list info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp
Date: 01 Apr 2000 21:33:27 -0600

Jon, the paragraph you mentioned points out that the slag makes it difficult
to burn wrought iron when it is being brought to, or held at forging
temperatures. That makes it nice to work with, however other than ease in
forging and welding, the slag in the wrought is not a good thing, to the
contrary its bad. The more you work a piece of wrought the more slag is
removed from it, and the better it gets. To make steel from this wrought
they would take pieces of it about 3"wide1"thick10'long and put them through
a process similar to case hardening, when they were done it would have a
blistered appearance that was called blister steel. If they gave that
additional hammering or rolling it was called bar steel. If they took that
and cut it into pieces, stacked it and rewelded it, it was called single
shear steel. Do that process again and it was double shear. They could do
this several times, however this technique had its limits, and only after
the crucible process came into existence did quality of steel improve
greatly. The higher qualities of iron and steel were more homogenous, less
slag and more uniform throughout. I have read many times that the best iron
for barrels was Swedish. I don't know what it was about swedish iron that
made it so sought after, but it must have been superior in certain respects.
I should add a disclaimer that I don't know that much about the subject,
just trying to learn...

northwoods
-----Original Message-----


it's due to the one material component mechanically mixed into the iron
that gives wrought iron it's unique and excellent properties: 2-4% SLAG,
i.e., iron silicate, i.e., iron-silicon-oxygen compound -

" In connection with the heating of wrought iron, preparatory to ...
forging operations, it should be mentioned that there is very little
possibility of burning the metal. ... at higher temperatures a slag
forms on a wrought iron surface and serves to protect the metal against
the danger of oxidation.  A temperature in the range between 2100.F to
2200.F corresponding to a bright yellow color [of the workpiece], will
give the best results.  This is applicable to all types of forging
work."

c.f. Wrought Iron, by James Aston and Edward Story (both were
metallurgists at A.M. Byers Company, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania), 1939,
pp. 65-67.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
Date: 01 Apr 2000 21:41:40 -0600


-----Original Message-----

>Restaurant suppliers who service the steak house trade should have real
>charcoal for sale.
>John...


Heres a few more sources if somebody is interested:

Holland Sales
508 Cumberland Street
Memphis, TN 38112-2618
901-324-1418
Lump charcoal available by the bag or
by the truckload.

Hometown Inc.
1518 E. North Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53202
414-276-9311 800-242-9238 414-276-6061 fax
Source of good quality charcoal that
burns very hot.

Humphreys Charcoal Corp.
Brookville, PA 15825
Excellent quality hardwood charcoal in 20 & 40 lb bags.

Lazzare Brothers or Lazzare Fuel Company
P.O. Box 34051
San Francisco, CA 94134-0051
415-467-2970
Source of blacksmithing coal.
They also have coke and charcoal.

Paul's Fireplace Wood
RR 6 Box 211
Little Falls, MN 56345-9137
800-347-3966
Lump charcoal in 40 pound bags.
Best time to call is between 8 & 10 am cst.

Mark Solomon
1020 S. Main
Moscow, ID 83843
208-882-6549
Supplier of Dragon Fire Charcoal,
a very good charcoal for forging.

northwoods


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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles/Mecate
Date: 01 Apr 2000 22:09:38 -0700

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The history of the mecate being traced back to the Moors has been =
disputed by some. My study was anything but comprehensive, and I think =
we all know that the generally held, easily found, history can be pretty =
inaccurate. But I read that the Moors did not believe in art work that =
shows a human or animal form and the Christians are claimed to have =
destroyed huge libraries of these infidels. So some question how much =
horse gear the Mexican/Californios got from the Moors, but it is safe to =
say that they, especially the Californios, perfected the use of =
bosal/mecate/spade bit. And they impressed the hell out of our RMFT when =
they got to California.=20

As to the use of the mecate in the fur trade, Meek may not be the best =
reference in the history but he is still a primary source and better =
than nothing and my referances to him show that a form of mecate was =
being manufactured and in use. I think that is more than "illuminating", =
I think it goes a long way to answering the question "...is the rein =
(system) period correct in anyone's estimation..." Yup, Joe Meeks.

WY


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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>The history of the mecate being traced back to the Moors has been =
disputed by=20
some. My study was anything but comprehensive, and I think we all know =
that the=20
generally held, easily found, history can be pretty inaccurate. But I =
read that=20
the Moors did not believe in art work that shows a human or animal form =
and the=20
Christians are claimed to have destroyed huge libraries of these =
infidels. So=20
some question how much horse gear the Mexican/Californios got from the =
Moors,=20
but it is safe to say that they, especially the Californios, perfected =
the use=20
of bosal/mecate/spade bit. And they impressed the hell out of our RMFT =
when they=20
got to California. </P>
<P>As to the use of the mecate in the fur trade, Meek may not be the =
best=20
reference in the history but he is still a primary source and better =
than=20
nothing and my referances to him show that a form of mecate was being=20
manufactured and in use. I think that is more than "illuminating", I =
think it=20
goes a long way to answering the question "...is the rein (system) =
period=20
correct in anyone's estimation..." Yup, Joe Meeks.</P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)?
Date: 02 Apr 2000 12:29:15 -0400

On Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:46:14 -0600 "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
writes:
Apparently they both use an  alloy  called 12L14, which has a high amount
of lead put into it. This is  to  increase the machinibility. Even modern
muzzleloader barrels are
> soft soft  soft.

this material is dead soft and the lead makes it cut like a dream---most
of the modern muzzle loading barrel makers are using it or another which
is quite similar

<snip>
>Allthough since  wrought  iron has no carbon in it, it really couldn't
be to hard, unless the
> makers  were just removing the work hardening from the repeated forging
that
> was  done.

they were not really trying to change the hardness but to relieve the
stresses in the barrel caused from the forgeing---the hoop stresses as
bill usto call it

<snip>
> guess they wanted barrels soft.This probably has to do with, as Hawk
> pointed  out from Bill Larges experience and other old timers,
accuracy,
> although I  have never heard of the results of someone testing this.

bill and I went thru that gyration several years ago was trying to get
the right barrel for my buffilo gun---so he cut me 4 barrels to try all
the same caliber and made with the same cutter and twist---

A. 1 reamed and rerifled or freshed out original cast steel barrel---
B.  1 12L14 barrel
C.  1 stainless 302 barrel
D. 1 modern tempered barrel

NOTE (according to my shooting notes Dated(5 june 1965 ))I mounted them
in a underhammer hopkins and allen shot them at 50 yds from a rest
shot 10 shots then scowerbrighted the barrels and shot again---only for
groop size---sights were epoxied on the barrels same set of sights used
on all barrels---got to remember this was a time in my life where i was
looking for all varables---even had a meter to tell me the moisture in
the air or humidity and a thermometer on my shooting box this was done at
the benchrest range in st charles mo-----usto ajust my powder charge
according to the temperature and humidity----the test was done on the
pistol range which was real protected for wind with a berm on each side
including the back---(used for no wind zeroing) I had wind flags out and
tried to shoot with the same indicators---I used a black sq of paper for
a sighter point  on a 6' sq piece of cardboard not worrying where the
bullits hit just the groop size at 50 yds the sighter was the same width
as my front sight and i would come up at a 6 o-clock and toutch the black
---and the order of accuracy is as shown above and in that order---barrel
cleaning was the same on all barrels---clean between each shot one wet
patch and one dry patch--

the freshed barrel---would stack bullets had a groop of 5 that i could
cover with a quarter
th 12L14 had a groop just larger  but almost a silver doller size with
one wide shot
the 302 stainless had a groop  about 2 1/2 in in dia
the hard tempered barrel  had a groop about the size of a coffee can

according to my shooting notes for the day I had  65% humidity---72
degree temperature at start of testing and 78deg at conclusion---.015
pillow ticking---70 gr of FFFG (same lot of powder)---grizz for
lube---.535 roundball weighted to within 1 gr----barrel was rested on
sandbags at about 4" from the crown ---all crowns were perfectly sq and
crowned with a 320 grit ball cutter to about .060 wide---only variation
in the barrels was that each had a different breach plug but fitted the
same way they has a flat base inside the barrel  nipple loaction was
within .030  in order to align with the hammer. all groops were shot in
30 min relays---and the barrel not allowed to get warm to the
touch---shot under a covered fireing line (no sight light chg)

I usto always keep records of shooting and trying new stuff and have kina
lapsed in my old age thinking it not necessary any more.  and of course
the passing of good eye-sight--

> Hawk, did you get that 20# gobbler yet?

got a small jake the big "boss Gobbler is still there waiting for me---
hope to go next week---

all the info i can provide at this time---
YMHOSANT
       =+=
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)?
Date: 03 Apr 2000 07:31:49 -0500


-----Original Message-----



>I usto always keep records of shooting and trying new stuff and have kina
>lapsed in my old age thinking it not necessary any more.  and of course
>the passing of good eye-sight--


Thanks for the information Hawk, now it's in my notes.... thats very
interesting stuff. Reading that brings a lot of other questions to mind. I
believe I read in Roberts book The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle that he
thought that a lot of old time makers felt that a reamed and re-rifled
barrel was the most accurate barrel. Seems to me it even said that some
folks when getting a new rifle, would get it made with a slightly smaller
bore size than they wanted, and then after a 100 or so shots they would
bring it back and get it reamed and re-rifled. Claimed it would always shoot
better when that was done. Maybe the firing of the gun had something to do
with relieving the "hoop stresses" as you called them.
Thanks again for the info, good luck next week when you go to visit Mr.
Osceola,
northwoods


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From: Bobbie <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: natural dyes for buckskin
Date: 03 Apr 2000 09:33:17 -0600

  While at a Rendezvous work party yesterday, one of the guys asked me
about the dyes used on buckskin, and I thought I'd ask the question here.

   He particularly wanted to know what is good to seal it with, so that it
wouldn't get "hard" and crack or something like that.

   Any good tips on the various dyes for different colors would be very
helpful to him.

        Thanks!

        Bobbie

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)?
Date: 03 Apr 2000 19:14:02 -0700

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Hawk,
  GREAT INFO ! ! ! !=20
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, April 02, 2000 8:00 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)?
   =20
   =20
    On Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:46:14 -0600 "northwoods" =
<[e-mail]>
    writes:
    Apparently they both use an  alloy  called 12L14, which has a high =
amount
    of lead put into it. This is  to  increase the machinibility. Even =
modern
    muzzleloader barrels are=20
    > soft soft  soft.
   =20
    this material is dead soft and the lead makes it cut like a =
dream---most
    of the modern muzzle loading barrel makers are using it or another =
which
    is quite similar
   =20
    <snip>
    >Allthough since  wrought  iron has no carbon in it, it really =
couldn't
    be to hard, unless the=20
    > makers  were just removing the work hardening from the repeated =
forging
    that=20
    > was  done.=20
   =20
    they were not really trying to change the hardness but to relieve =
the
    stresses in the barrel caused from the forgeing---the hoop stresses =
as
    bill usto call it
   =20
    <snip>
    > guess they wanted barrels soft.This probably has to do with, as =
Hawk=20
    > pointed  out from Bill Larges experience and other old timers,
    accuracy,=20
    > although I  have never heard of the results of someone testing =
this.=20
   =20
    bill and I went thru that gyration several years ago was trying to =
get
    the right barrel for my buffilo gun---so he cut me 4 barrels to try =
all
    the same caliber and made with the same cutter and twist---
   =20
    A. 1 reamed and rerifled or freshed out original cast steel =
barrel---
    B.  1 12L14 barrel
    C.  1 stainless 302 barrel
    D. 1 modern tempered barrel
   =20
    NOTE (according to my shooting notes Dated(5 june 1965 ))I mounted =
them
    in a underhammer hopkins and allen shot them at 50 yds from a rest
    shot 10 shots then scowerbrighted the barrels and shot again---only =
for
    groop size---sights were epoxied on the barrels same set of sights =
used
    on all barrels---got to remember this was a time in my life where i =
was
    looking for all varables---even had a meter to tell me the moisture =
in
    the air or humidity and a thermometer on my shooting box this was =
done at
    the benchrest range in st charles mo-----usto ajust my powder charge
    according to the temperature and humidity----the test was done on =
the
    pistol range which was real protected for wind with a berm on each =
side
    including the back---(used for no wind zeroing) I had wind flags out =
and=20
    tried to shoot with the same indicators---I used a black sq of paper =
for
    a sighter point  on a 6' sq piece of cardboard not worrying where =
the
    bullits hit just the groop size at 50 yds the sighter was the same =
width
    as my front sight and i would come up at a 6 o-clock and toutch the =
black
    ---and the order of accuracy is as shown above and in that =
order---barrel
    cleaning was the same on all barrels---clean between each shot one =
wet
    patch and one dry patch--
   =20
    the freshed barrel---would stack bullets had a groop of 5 that i =
could
    cover with a quarter=20
    th 12L14 had a groop just larger  but almost a silver doller size =
with
    one wide shot
    the 302 stainless had a groop  about 2 1/2 in in dia
    the hard tempered barrel  had a groop about the size of a coffee can
   =20
    according to my shooting notes for the day I had  65% humidity---72
    degree temperature at start of testing and 78deg at =
conclusion---.015
    pillow ticking---70 gr of FFFG (same lot of powder)---grizz for
    lube---.535 roundball weighted to within 1 gr----barrel was rested =
on
    sandbags at about 4" from the crown ---all crowns were perfectly sq =
and
    crowned with a 320 grit ball cutter to about .060 wide---only =
variation
    in the barrels was that each had a different breach plug but fitted =
the
    same way they has a flat base inside the barrel  nipple loaction was
    within .030  in order to align with the hammer. all groops were shot =
in
    30 min relays---and the barrel not allowed to get warm to the
    touch---shot under a covered fireing line (no sight light chg)
   =20
    I usto always keep records of shooting and trying new stuff and have =
kina
    lapsed in my old age thinking it not necessary any more.  and of =
course
    the passing of good eye-sight--
   =20
    > Hawk, did you get that 20# gobbler yet?
   =20
    got a small jake the big "boss Gobbler is still there waiting for =
me---
    hope to go next week---
   =20
    all the info i can provide at this time---
    YMHOSANT
           =3D+=3D
        "HAWK"
    Michael Pierce
    854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C) =

    Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
    e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
    site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
   =20
    ________________________________________________________________
    YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
    Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
    Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
    http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
   =20
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hawk,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  GREAT =
INFO ! ! ! !=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
<<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, April 02, 2000 8:00 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List: GUN=20
    BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)?<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>On Sat, 1 Apr =
2000=20
    18:46:14 -0600 "northwoods" <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>wr=
ites:<BR>Apparently=20
    they both use an  alloy  called 12L14, which has a high=20
    amount<BR>of lead put into it. This is  to  increase the=20
    machinibility. Even modern<BR>muzzleloader barrels are <BR>> soft =

    soft  soft.<BR><BR>this material is dead soft and the lead =
makes it cut=20
    like a dream---most<BR>of the modern muzzle loading barrel makers =
are using=20
    it or another which<BR>is quite =
similar<BR><BR><snip><BR>>Allthough=20
    since  wrought  iron has no carbon in it, it really =
couldn't<BR>be=20
    to hard, unless the <BR>> makers  were just removing the =
work=20
    hardening from the repeated forging<BR>that <BR>> was  done. =

    <BR><BR>they were not really trying to change the hardness but to =
relieve=20
    the<BR>stresses in the barrel caused from the forgeing---the hoop =
stresses=20
    as<BR>bill usto call it<BR><BR><snip><BR>> guess they =
wanted=20
    barrels soft.This probably has to do with, as Hawk <BR>> =
pointed =20
    out from Bill Larges experience and other old timers,<BR>accuracy, =
<BR>>=20
    although I  have never heard of the results of someone testing =
this.=20
    <BR><BR>bill and I went thru that gyration several years ago was =
trying to=20
    get<BR>the right barrel for my buffilo gun---so he cut me 4 barrels =
to try=20
    all<BR>the same caliber and made with the same cutter and =
twist---<BR><BR>A.=20
    1 reamed and rerifled or freshed out original cast steel=20
    barrel---<BR>B.  1 12L14 barrel<BR>C.  1 stainless 302=20
    barrel<BR>D. 1 modern tempered barrel<BR><BR>NOTE (according to my =
shooting=20
    notes Dated(5 june 1965 ))I mounted them<BR>in a underhammer hopkins =
and=20
    allen shot them at 50 yds from a rest<BR>shot 10 shots then =
scowerbrighted=20
    the barrels and shot again---only for<BR>groop size---sights were =
epoxied on=20
    the barrels same set of sights used<BR>on all barrels---got to =
remember this=20
    was a time in my life where i was<BR>looking for all varables---even =
had a=20
    meter to tell me the moisture in<BR>the air or humidity and a =
thermometer on=20
    my shooting box this was done at<BR>the benchrest range in st =
charles=20
    mo-----usto ajust my powder charge<BR>according to the temperature =
and=20
    humidity----the test was done on the<BR>pistol range which was real=20
    protected for wind with a berm on each side<BR>including the =
back---(used=20
    for no wind zeroing) I had wind flags out and <BR>tried to shoot =
with the=20
    same indicators---I used a black sq of paper for<BR>a sighter =
point  on=20
    a 6' sq piece of cardboard not worrying where the<BR>bullits hit =
just the=20
    groop size at 50 yds the sighter was the same width<BR>as my front =
sight and=20
    i would come up at a 6 o-clock and toutch the black<BR>---and the =
order of=20
    accuracy is as shown above and in that order---barrel<BR>cleaning =
was the=20
    same on all barrels---clean between each shot one wet<BR>patch and =
one dry=20
    patch--<BR><BR>the freshed barrel---would stack bullets had a groop =
of 5=20
    that i could<BR>cover with a quarter <BR>th 12L14 had a groop just=20
    larger  but almost a silver doller size with<BR>one wide =
shot<BR>the=20
    302 stainless had a groop  about 2 1/2 in in dia<BR>the hard =
tempered=20
    barrel  had a groop about the size of a coffee =
can<BR><BR>according to=20
    my shooting notes for the day I had  65% =
humidity---72<BR>degree=20
    temperature at start of testing and 78deg at =
conclusion---.015<BR>pillow=20
    ticking---70 gr of FFFG (same lot of powder)---grizz =
for<BR>lube---.535=20
    roundball weighted to within 1 gr----barrel was rested =
on<BR>sandbags at=20
    about 4" from the crown ---all crowns were perfectly sq =
and<BR>crowned=20
    with a 320 grit ball cutter to about .060 wide---only =
variation<BR>in the=20
    barrels was that each had a different breach plug but fitted =
the<BR>same way=20
    they has a flat base inside the barrel  nipple loaction =
was<BR>within=20
    .030  in order to align with the hammer. all groops were shot =
in<BR>30=20
    min relays---and the barrel not allowed to get warm to =
the<BR>touch---shot=20
    under a covered fireing line (no sight light chg)<BR><BR>I usto =
always keep=20
    records of shooting and trying new stuff and have kina<BR>lapsed in =
my old=20
    age thinking it not necessary any more.  and of course<BR>the =
passing=20
    of good eye-sight--<BR><BR>> Hawk, did you get that 20# gobbler=20
    yet?<BR><BR>got a small jake the big "boss Gobbler is still =
there=20
    waiting for me---<BR>hope to go next week---<BR><BR>all the info i =
can=20
    provide at this =
time---<BR>YMHOSANT<BR>      =20
    =3D+=3D<BR>    "HAWK"<BR>Michael =
Pierce<BR>854=20
    Glenfield=20
    =
Dr.           &nbs=
p;=20
    (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C) =

    <BR>Palm Harbor Florida    =20
    34684        =
Phone:   =20
    1-727-771-1815<BR>e-mail:   <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =20
    =
web<BR>site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce<BR><BR>_________________=
_______________________________________________<BR>YOU'RE=20
    PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!<BR>Juno now offers FREE Internet=20
    Access!<BR>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE =
software,=20
    visit:<BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj">http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj<=
/A>.<BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=20
    list info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: What's all this hooter stuff anyway?
Date: 04 Apr 2000 09:31:31 -0500

At least at most rendezvous in Texas, the toilet facility is called "the
hooter."  I know nothing of the origin of this terminology, but I guess
it is not from the rendezvous period.  So I checked my handy
Merriam-Webster dictionary to research the toilet terminology.

In chronological order I found:

14th century -privy
14th century - lavatory (although meant for washing)
14th century - outhouse
15th century - urinal
1579 - chamber pot (the vessel)
1642 - latrine (a pit facility)
1681 - toilette
1695 - toilet
1755 - water closet
1780 - bathroom (although meant to contain a bath tub)
1806 - wash room
1856 - john
1864 - slop pail
1870 - ladies room
1872 - sanitary ware (the fixture)
1884 - toilet paper
1899 - rest room
1913 - comfort station
1929 - men's room
1931 - donnicker or donniker
1932 - crapper
1940 - loo (British)
1942 - potty

Date of origin (toilet meaning) not known:

ablution (British)
basement (New England)
bowl
can
commode
convenience
facilities
head
hooter
lavatory
lounge
public room

I used the search feature of Dean Rudy's web site to look for any
occurrence of the period words.  The word 'privy' was used in it's other
meaning, and toilet and toilette were used to mean 'dressing table.'
Unlike the present author, the journalists and authors of the period
were evidently too prudent to discuss such a disgusting topic.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner


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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: natural dyes for buckskin
Date: 04 Apr 2000 10:13:55 -0600

I use fullers dirt, it is the stuff used in films to discolor or age
cloth or leather, I also use leather dyes procured from a leather
tannery, Very expensive but only use a little bit. What cracks
leather is the drying out of the oils used in tanning. We have
renewed leather by spraying it with a special oil we use in our
tannery. It works great on chaps for example. you do not want to seal
leather, as it has to breathe.
Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: water blasting tipi poles
Date: 05 Apr 2000 09:12:27 -0500

Would the person who did the water blasting of the tipi poles please
email me privately, I have a buddy who is trying to corner the market in
western Wisconsin B^) and is interested, but he lost the email I sent
him.

Thanks,

Jim Lindberg
[e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gary McLeod" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: natural dyes for buckskin
Date: 05 Apr 2000 10:25:11 EDT



>From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: natural dyes for buckskin
>Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:13:55 -0600
>
>I use fullers dirt, it is the stuff used in films to discolor or age
>cloth or leather, I also use leather dyes procured from a leather
>tannery, Very expensive but only use a little bit. What cracks
>leather is the drying out of the oils used in tanning. We have
>renewed leather by spraying it with a special oil we use in our
>tannery. It works great on chaps for example. you do not want to seal
>leather, as it has to breathe.
>Joe
>Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
>Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture
>307-455-2440
>New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Canada-Historical Map
Date: 05 Apr 2000 09:43:20 -0500

Found this on a genealogical site, thought you might be interested.


>
> Canadian Geographic has an interesting map at this site-
>
> http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/mapping/default.asp?section=mappingcanada
>
> By clicking on the date it will show you the changing boundaries from
> 1700
> to the present time. There is also text outlining the history of each
> period.

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: barrel accuracy
Date: 05 Apr 2000 13:58:37 -0500

    Having lived almost seven years near Friendship, Indiana, I learned a
lot from some of the genuine 'old timers' in the muzzle loading game.
    And from them, I learned that one of the most important factors in
getting an accurate barrel was to control harmonic resonance. Fancy words
for vibrations.
    All barrels vibrate. The trick is have your projectile leave the barrel
at the same point in its vibration each time so that your bullet [round
ball, thank you] impacts the target at the same spot each shot.
    The old, soft iron, barrels absorbed a lot of the harmonic resonance
just because of the softness of the material.
    Even then there was some vibration that needed to be
controlled,especially on the very long barrels of Ky/Penn eastern rifles.
The need for control led to the development of swamped barrels.  That
contouring of the barrels was not just to make them pretty. It was by design
to make even long, slim and lightweight barrels accurate.
    And them old timers [pre-1800] were some pretty smart fellers and
downright masterful gunsmiths.  It worked.
    Today's modern steel barrels do not absorb harmonic resonance as well as
the soft iron. This increases the need for other methods to achieve
accuracy.  Heavy barrels is one way. Swamping is another and it works.
    Harmonic resonance is probably not as much a problem on heavy barrels
like Jaegers and Hawkens but it is on the Kentucky styles.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Accuracy
Date: 06 Apr 2000 00:29:32 -0400 (EDT)

Hawk,
were these barrels all octagonal?
all flintlock?
my thanks also for sharing the excellent experiences from your ML
journals.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Barrels...Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 2000 23:32:54 -0500

Thanks Hawk,
BIll told me 'someone' had done the tests.  I didn't remember the name,
and now am glad that it was you.   Thank you for the memory and the
information.  When I was learning a lot from the 'old timers', Bill was
free with advice and help, even if a bit crusty at times.
I miss him.

Mike

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Accuracy
Date: 06 Apr 2000 02:06:42 -0400

JON MARINETTI
all barrels were octogon 1" no tapor and has an underhammer ignition---so
it would be almost applicable to a flint gun but a cap was used---


    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrels...Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 2000 02:12:36 -0400

mike---
yes we will all who knew bill miss him and his salty toung---and
unsolicited advice on any subject and if bill is watching us now and you
will remember this---"No Bill the reds havent taken over the world and
friendship yet"   ---guess bills cutting barrels for the big maker now
and telling him why it aint goin to work---

you should appreciate that one mike---

YMHOSANT
        =+=
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The River Walk NEEDS Your Help
Date: 06 Apr 2000 06:49:46 -0700

Hey Camp,

Here's something of interest, whether you do F&I War or Civil War, check this out.

<http://www.mohicanpress.com/wwwboard/messages9/19589.html>: The River Walk NEEDS Your Help!!


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:(offline)web page junk???
Date: 06 Apr 2000 11:22:24 -0400

buck
updating and upgrading my web page---would like to add a link to your
page on mine---if you would like a link what do you want it to say if you
want one---am adding a bunch of pictures of my calls and stuff with
buttons to view and adding a page for just links and other BP related
stuff---let me know if you want to be included

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce


On 6 Apr 2000 06:49:46 -0700 Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
writes:
> Hey Camp,
>
> Here's something of interest, whether you do F&I War or Civil War,
> check this out.
>
> <http://www.mohicanpress.com/wwwboard/messages9/19589.html>: The
> River Walk NEEDS Your Help!!
>
>
> Later
> Buck Conner
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
>                   Aux Aliments de Pays!
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account
> http://www.uswestmail.net
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: For sale
Date: 08 Apr 2000 18:48:00 -0500

Washtahay-
    out of sheer boredom, its time for one of my infamous on-line rummage
sales.  Books, gun parts, moulds, dies, etc.  Some trade silver, leather,
etc.  List will go out tonight, for a copy please reply to me at
<[e-mail]>.
Thanks!
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: Terry & Debbie Venden <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: For sale
Date: 08 Apr 2000 22:19:32 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------2D829354A53C0B750B397A0E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Washtahay Longwalker,
I'd be interested in a list of your wares.  Always looking for something to buy.
Enjoy your comments and information on the list.
Terry (Medicine Bear)

[e-mail] wrote:

> Washtahay-
>         out of sheer boredom, its time for one of my infamous on-line rummage
> sales.  Books, gun parts, moulds, dies, etc.  Some trade silver, leather,
> etc.  List will go out tonight, for a copy please reply to me at
> <[e-mail]>.
> Thanks!
> LongWalker c. du B.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--------------2D829354A53C0B750B397A0E
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Terry & Debbie Venden
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="tvenden.vcf"

begin:vcard
n:Venden;Terry & Debbie
tel;home:[phone]
tel;work:[phone]
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.geocities.com/~2wolvestrading
org:Two Wolves Trading Co.
adr:;;Rt. 1, #24 Deerwood Dr.;Harleton;Texas;75651;
version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
fn:Terry & Debbie Venden
end:vcard

--------------2D829354A53C0B750B397A0E--


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From: Terry & Debbie Venden <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: For sale
Date: 08 Apr 2000 22:23:40 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------A549A1504840C53AAB6FCE21
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sorry, I didn't mean for that last message to go out to the list.
Terry (Medicine Bear)



--------------A549A1504840C53AAB6FCE21
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Terry & Debbie Venden
Content-Disposition: attachment;
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begin:vcard
n:Venden;Terry & Debbie
tel;home:[phone]
tel;work:[phone]
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.geocities.com/~2wolvestrading
org:Two Wolves Trading Co.
adr:;;Rt. 1, #24 Deerwood Dr.;Harleton;Texas;75651;
version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
fn:Terry & Debbie Venden
end:vcard

--------------A549A1504840C53AAB6FCE21--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 09 Apr 2000 14:03:25 EDT

Hallo the list,

I've always wondered how the Mountain Men ground their coffee (starbucks)
after they roasted the beans.... I now know, so this is a test.... Anyone
have the answer?

Ymos,

Steve

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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 09 Apr 2000 11:54:42 -0700

I believe they put it in a sack, or piece of something to keep it
together, then beat it using the back of an axe, rock, etc...  hardtack

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 09 Apr 2000 14:53:06 EDT

Given the tools at hand, cloth, rocks, hand-axes, etc., seems like Hardtack
would be right on the money and I'd have to concur.    Barney

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 09 Apr 2000 15:08:13 -0400

 Hardtack Wrote:>I believe they put it in a sack, or piece of something to
keep it
> together, then beat it using the back of an axe, rock, etc...

That's how I do it...At least 'till I can get my paws on Pablo's new
pistol.. I 'spect the its butt that will work better'n an axe.. More
entertaining as well..<GG>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 2:54 PM



>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 09 Apr 2000 17:04:30 EDT

<<<<Hardtack Wrote:>I believe they put it in a sack, or piece of something to

keep it>>>
Haaaaaa!   You boys are good....  according to Hanson's "The Buckskinner's
Cook Book" they put the roasted beans in a leather bag and pounded till the
beans were crushed.... Looks like I'll put my antique coffee grinder back on
the shelf....

Ymos,

Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: curl...
Date: 09 Apr 2000 17:09:47 EDT

Ho the List,

OK....next question..... Has anyone figured (no pun) out what causes the
"Curl" in Curly  Maple and sometimes walnut? Doesn't seem to have much to do
with the grain....

Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 09 Apr 2000 17:25:08 EDT

> Haaaaaa!   You boys are good....  according to Hanson's "The Buckskinner's
>  Cook Book" they put the roasted beans in a leather bag and pounded till
the
>  beans were crushed.

I hold a contrary opinion !  I imagine that coffee beans were far to great of
a luxury to be pounded up, used once, and thrown away.

The beans can be used whole, roasted, the coffee brewed, and the beans
reclaimed.
They can then be re-roasted and used several times over using this method.  I
think that their usage would be maximized.  Perhaps in settled areas where
they could be purchased easily; consumption  and discard might be the rule.
As part of supplies to the mountains, I strongly suspect that they were made
to last as long as possible.
Just my opinion, of course, based on a different logic.

Dave Kanger

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: curl...
Date: 09 Apr 2000 18:17:35 EDT

i'm no woodworker, but i'm thinkin' the 'curly' part comes from the burl of
the wood; either a knot or the root, not sure if both are usuable, but thats
where you'd get the curled patterns...  barney

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 09 Apr 2000 18:29:31 EDT

In a message dated 4/9/00 2:27:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

>  Perhaps in settled areas where they could be purchased easily; consumption
 and discard might be the rule. As part of supplies to the mountains, I
strongly suspect that they were made to last as long as possible.  >  Just my
opinion, of course, based on a different logic.

Good thought Dave, you old Fox. <G>  I'm thinkin this is Cityfolk v.
Mountainman stuff. No doubt both logics existed. Even today, coffee beans and
grounds are thrown away after one use by some; put to use again by others.
Barney

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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 09 Apr 2000 15:39:01 -0700

On Sun, 09 April 2000, [e-mail] wrote:
> Haaaaaa!   You boys are good....
>
> I hold a contrary opinion !  I imagine that coffee beans were far to great of a luxury to be pounded up, used once, and thrown away.
>
> The beans can be used whole, roasted, the coffee brewed, and the beans reclaimed.
>
> They can then be re-roasted and used several times over using this method.  I think that their usage would be maximized......
>
> Just my opinion, of course, based on a different logic.
>
> Dave Kanger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hello camp,

I'm afraid Dave has a good point, Hanson found several accounts of coffee being reused as many as 6-7 times. He really never said if it was done like Dave as suggested. I had always figured they put the broken up grounds in a piece of cloth and then boiled the sack, let it dry out and used it again.

We tried this method, but only got real weak coffee the 2nd and 3rd time, so we had strong coffee in the morning and by evening you didn't have to worry about trying to go to sleep, like a weak tea.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: 12L14 ML Barrels
Date: 09 Apr 2000 20:07:33 -0400 (EDT)

They spec out at 0.15% to 0.35% lead (weight %), with carbon at 0.15%
max.  Any other steels (i.e., alloy quenched & tempered, or stainless)
the lead is usually less than 0.01%.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 09 Apr 2000 19:28:06 -0500

--=====================_69346817==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
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I've been a pondering this and I think the Old Fox may be on to something=20
here.

Seems like it might take more beans in the pot to have enough surface area=
=20
to make the coffee strong enough.  You ain't one of them that makes puny=20
coffee are you?

The trick may be in the re-roasting.  I've always left the grounds in the=20
bottom of the pot and added a handful or two of coffee to freshen the=20
grounds every time I add water.  When there's not enough room for more=20
water I'll dump some of the grounds and add more fresh.  This trick sounds=
=20
simpler to live with.  Of course I eat about as much coffee as I drink but=
=20
beans ain't no harder to chew up than grounds, that's how I test the=20
quality and freshness of beans at the store.

You can bet I'll try it I've worn out a bunch of canvas and leather bags=20
over the years (never use a chemical tan leather for a coffee grinder=20
bag).   Paul's pistol might make a first rate coffee pounder but be sure=20
you lay the bag on a rough surface rock.

John...

At 05:25 PM 4/9/00 -0400, you wrote:
> > Haaaaaa!   You boys are good....  according to Hanson's "The=
 Buckskinner's
> >  Cook Book" they put the roasted beans in a leather bag and pounded till
>the
> >  beans were crushed.
>
>I hold a contrary opinion !  I imagine that coffee beans were far to great=
 of
>a luxury to be pounded up, used once, and thrown away.
>
>The beans can be used whole, roasted, the coffee brewed, and the beans
>reclaimed.
>They can then be re-roasted and used several times over using this method. =
 I
>think that their usage would be maximized.  Perhaps in settled areas where
>they could be purchased easily; consumption  and discard might be the rule.
>As part of supplies to the mountains, I strongly suspect that they were=
 made
>to last as long as possible.
>Just my opinion, of course, based on a different logic.
>
>Dave Kanger
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>

--=====================_69346817==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<font size=3D3>I've been a pondering this and I think the Old Fox may be on
to something here.  <br>
<br>
Seems like it might take more beans in the pot to have enough surface
area to make the coffee strong enough.  You ain't one of them that
makes puny coffee are you?<br>
<br>
The trick may be in the re-roasting.  I've always left the grounds
in the bottom of the pot and added a handful or two of coffee to freshen
the grounds every time I add water.  When there's not enough room
for more water I'll dump some of the grounds and add more fresh.
This trick sounds simpler to live with.  Of course I eat about as
much coffee as I drink but beans ain't no harder to chew up than grounds,
that's how I test the quality and freshness of beans at the store.<br>
<br>
You can bet I'll try it I've worn out a bunch of canvas and leather bags
over the years (never use a chemical tan leather for a coffee grinder
bag).   Paul's pistol might make a first rate coffee pounder
but be sure you lay the bag on a rough surface rock.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
At 05:25 PM 4/9/00 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite cite>> Haaaaaa!   You boys are
good....  according to Hanson's "The Buckskinner's <br>
>  Cook Book" they put the roasted beans in a leather bag
and pounded till <br>
the <br>
>  beans were crushed.<br>
<br>
I hold a contrary opinion !  I imagine that coffee beans were far to
great of <br>
a luxury to be pounded up, used once, and thrown away.<br>
<br>
The beans can be used whole, roasted, the coffee brewed, and the beans
<br>
reclaimed.<br>
They can then be re-roasted and used several times over using this
method.  I <br>
think that their usage would be maximized.  Perhaps in settled areas
where <br>
they could be purchased easily; consumption  and discard might be
the rule.  <br>
As part of supplies to the mountains, I strongly suspect that they were
made <br>
to last as long as possible.<br>
Just my opinion, of course, based on a different logic.<br>
<br>
Dave Kanger<br>
<br>
----------------------<br>
hist_text list info:
<a href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a></=
font></blockquote><br>
<div>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0</div>
<br>
<div>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</div>
<div>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</div>
<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<</div>
<br>
<div><<a href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/"=
 EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</a>></div>
<br>
<div>mail to: <[e-mail]> </div>
</html>

--=====================_69346817==_.ALT--


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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: curl...
Date: 09 Apr 2000 20:49:34 -0500

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Steve,

Curl is one of many terms used to describe the various patterns in the=20
grain of wood, generically it is referred to as the figure of the=20
wood.  Peddlers make up new names every day.

Flame grain is the exposure of the medullary rays in the wood by radially=20
quarter-sawing the log.  Luster (iridescence, translucence, or depth) is=20
generally enhanced by quarter-sawing as well, finish absorption and=20
adhesion is also improved.  Quarter-sawn wood tends to be more stable and=20
exhibit less warping, winding and twisting than straight sawn wood.  Curl=20
can be exhibited in both radial and straight sawn wood.

Compression (growing unsupported out over a hill where the tree grows=20
against the side pull of gravity) will also effect figure and grain.  This=
=20
was historically used to advantage when harvesting wood for "bent" work so=
=20
full strength is maintained in curved things like boat ribs and beams.

Birds-eye is thought to occur when the trees grow in close=20
conditions.  I've also heard it reported that it is caused by disease.

Figure is also caused by the tree standing to the wind -- this is what=20
causes "curl".  The more it swayed over the years the curlier it got.  You=
=20
can often tell by the surface of the trunk what lurks beneath, sometimes=
 not.

Other figure is caused by disease and external damage.  Disease can also=20
cause coloration of the wood as in "spalting".  Mineral concentrations in=20
the soil can also effect color.

Burls are of two forms gnarly knotted things that grow on the trunk and=20
result from disease or damage and root burls which are always nice, nicer=20
if frequently injured during the growth cycles.  Root burls of city trees=20
can be spectacular when forced to grow around sidewalks, storm drains, curb=
=20
and gutter.  They can be seriously damaging to tools and occasionally lives=
=20
when the tools hit something real hard like concrete or steel embedded deep=
=20
in the wood.

John...


At 05:09 PM 4/9/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Ho the List,
>
>OK....next question..... Has anyone figured (no pun) out what causes the
>"Curl" in Curly  Maple and sometimes walnut? Doesn't seem to have much to=
 do
>with the grain....
>
>Ymos,
>Steve

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>

--=====================_74269914==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<font size=3D3>Steve,<br>
<br>
Curl is one of many terms used to describe the various patterns in the
grain of wood, generically it is referred to as the figure of the
wood.  Peddlers make up new names every day.   <br>
<br>
Flame grain is the exposure of the medullary rays in the wood by radially
quarter-sawing the log.  Luster (iridescence, translucence, or
depth) is generally enhanced by quarter-sawing as well, finish absorption
and adhesion is also improved.  Quarter-sawn wood tends to be more
stable and exhibit less warping, winding and twisting than straight sawn
wood.  Curl can be exhibited in both radial and straight sawn
wood.<br>
<br>
Compression (growing unsupported out over a hill where the tree grows
against the side pull of gravity) will also effect figure and
grain.  This was historically used to advantage when harvesting wood
for "bent" work so full strength is maintained in curved things
like boat ribs and beams.<br>
<br>
Birds-eye is thought to occur when the trees grow in close
conditions.  I've also heard it reported that it is caused by
disease.<br>
<br>
Figure is also caused by the tree standing to the wind -- this is what
causes "curl".  The more it swayed over the years the
curlier it got.  You can often tell by the surface of the trunk what
lurks beneath, sometimes not.<br>
<br>
Other figure is caused by disease and external damage.  Disease can
also cause coloration of the wood as in "spalting".
Mineral concentrations in the soil can also effect color.<br>
<br>
Burls are of two forms gnarly knotted things that grow on the trunk and
result from disease or damage and root burls which are always nice, nicer
if frequently injured during the growth cycles.  Root burls of city
trees can be spectacular when forced to grow around sidewalks, storm
drains, curb and gutter.  They can be seriously damaging to tools
and occasionally lives when the tools hit something real hard like
concrete or steel embedded deep in the wood.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
At 05:09 PM 4/9/00 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite cite>Ho the List,<br>
<br>
OK....next question..... Has anyone figured (no pun) out what causes the
<br>
"Curl" in Curly  Maple and sometimes walnut? Doesn't seem
to have much to do <br>
with the grain....<br>
<br>
Ymos,<br>
Steve<br>
</font></blockquote><br>
<div>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0</div>
<br>
<div>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</div>
<div>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</div>
<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<</div>
<br>
<div><<a href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/"=
 EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</a>></div>
<br>
<div>mail to: <[e-mail]> </div>
</html>

--=====================_74269914==_.ALT--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 09 Apr 2000 23:11:50 EDT

Hooray for Dave.  they made whole bean coffee.

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 09 Apr 2000 22:18:39 -0500

Dave
I never heard of making coffee with roasted, whole beans so I tried it =
tonight.  Sucks bad.  I added a measured amount of water to a coffee =
kettle that has be used for years over campfires in 5 states, raised it =
to a boil and added a measured amount of whole, roasted coffee beans.  =
(When I use ground coffee I never boil the water with coffee in it.....I =
remove the boiling pot from the fire and add the coffee.  After allowing =
the coffee to brew for a minute or two I add a couple of tablespoons of =
cold water which is supposed to settle the grounds.)  Well, I let the =
whole beans boil for five minutes.  The resulting brew looked weaker =
than Chinese green tea and tasted worse.  I  would bet that most of what =
little flavor was there came from the pot, which only gets =
rinsed....soap never touches it.  I dumped the pot and raised the same =
amount of water to a boil, added coffee ground from the same quanity of =
whole beans as before and brewed coffee as described above.  Tastes =
great....sipping it now.  I don't know how long whole beans would have =
to be boiled to get a beverage that even looked like coffee but I don't =
care.  Boiling coffee removes certain volitiles that make up much of the =
flavor and I doubt boiled whole beans would ever make good coffee.  =
Reusing cooked grounds is a very common practice and if coffee is scarce =
a good case can be made for doing it, but in my experience the resulting =
brew is pretty sad even with the addition of a handful of fresh grounds. =
 It IS thick, though.
Now for some speculation on my part........  It seems to me that the men =
who lived the life in the rocky mountains in the first third of the =
ninenteeth century lived life with gusto, risking death daily, eating =
pounds of meat at a sitting, raising hell at rendezvous until they were =
broke (many of them, anyhow), living mainly for today.....those men =
would want better coffee than that sad brew made with unground whole =
beans.  I think that they would make good coffee, throw out the grounds =
when they were used up to their satisfaction and drink water when they =
ran out.
I hope to share a fire and a coffee pot with you some time and explore =
this further.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 4:25 PM


> > Haaaaaa!   You boys are good....  according to Hanson's "The =
Buckskinner's=20
> >  Cook Book" they put the roasted beans in a leather bag and pounded =
till=20
> the=20
> >  beans were crushed.
>=20
> I hold a contrary opinion !  I imagine that coffee beans were far to =
great of=20
> a luxury to be pounded up, used once, and thrown away.
>=20
> The beans can be used whole, roasted, the coffee brewed, and the beans =

> reclaimed.
> They can then be re-roasted and used several times over using this =
method.  I=20
> think that their usage would be maximized.  Perhaps in settled areas =
where=20
> they could be purchased easily; consumption  and discard might be the =
rule. =20
> As part of supplies to the mountains, I strongly suspect that they =
were made=20
> to last as long as possible.
> Just my opinion, of course, based on a different logic.
>=20
> Dave Kanger
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 10 Apr 2000 00:12:06 EDT

Whole bean coffee is not made by boiling the water.  It is kept heated for a
lovg time but not boiled.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 10 Apr 2000 00:22:32 EDT

> I never heard of making coffee with roasted, whole beans so I tried it
> tonight.  Sucks bad.

Lannie,
I never said it tasted good. <G> You also make a good case but......

a.  The beans need to be DARK roasted, preferably by yourself.
b.  Being unground, there is less surface area with whole beans, so it takes
a lot more.
c.  I use a small boiler half filled with beans...makes about two cups.
d.  To reuse, they have to be dried and re-roasted, with obvious diminishing
returns.
e.  SHUDDER.....I also add large quantities of sugar to mine.

We don't really know what coffee tasted like back then, nor if they were
afficiondos like many of us are.  It's an acquired taste and we have many
choices.  You can also roast a variety of other things to drink which will
approximate a warm beverage...among them wheat, pine/pinion nuts,
dandelion/thistle roots and chicory.
Don't know if dandelions and thistle were indigenious plants or not.  I
expect they all could be called coffee too, just as a generic name.

We will probably never know, but its interesting to speculate.

Dave

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 10 Apr 2000 06:03:22 -0500

Maybe so.  The next morning that I have a long time available to make =
coffee I might try that method.  If boiling doesn't extract any flavor, =
how long is is apt to take in hot water?

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 11:12 PM


> Whole bean coffee is not made by boiling the water.  It is kept heated =
for a=20
> lovg time but not boiled.
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grinding coffee
Date: 10 Apr 2000 06:11:28 -0500

Dave
My beans were roasted commercially, but were nearly coal black but I =
certainly didn't use half a pot of beans.  Maybe a little more flavor is =
possible that way, but I think I am going to stick with whacking them to =
grounds in a leather bag.  I would be glad to try a cup of yours =
someday.  Without the sugar, though.  My diabetes would object.
Chicory is good.  I have never tried anything else on your list.  My =
depression era parents talked about using  various coffee substitutes.  =
Didn't like any of 'em.
Lanney =20
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 11:22 PM


> > I never heard of making coffee with roasted, whole beans so I tried =
it=20
> > tonight.  Sucks bad.
>=20
> Lannie,
> I never said it tasted good. <G> You also make a good case but......
>=20
> a.  The beans need to be DARK roasted, preferably by yourself.
> b.  Being unground, there is less surface area with whole beans, so it =
takes=20
> a lot more.
> c.  I use a small boiler half filled with beans...makes about two =
cups. =20
> d.  To reuse, they have to be dried and re-roasted, with obvious =
diminishing=20
> returns.
> e.  SHUDDER.....I also add large quantities of sugar to mine.
>=20
> We don't really know what coffee tasted like back then, nor if they =
were=20
> afficiondos like many of us are.  It's an acquired taste and we have =
many=20
> choices.  You can also roast a variety of other things to drink which =
will=20
> approximate a warm beverage...among them wheat, pine/pinion nuts,=20
> dandelion/thistle roots and chicory.=20
> Don't know if dandelions and thistle were indigenious plants or not.  =
I=20
> expect they all could be called coffee too, just as a generic name.
>=20
> We will probably never know, but its interesting to speculate.
>=20
> Dave
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: loose hammer
Date: 10 Apr 2000 11:08:30 EDT

Hallo the List,

Think I'll pass on the coffee beans too, and go with the smashed....

Next question..... The hammer on my flintlock fusil is a mite loose....mebbe
a .001 or .002... the square hole a bit large from use. What would be the
best way to tighten it up? I'm thinkin silver solder may work, then file
down, but don't know if it would stick to steel and wonder about the heat...
Hawk?

Ymos,
Steve

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From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loose hammer
Date: 10 Apr 2000 12:05:00 -0400

steve---
couple of ways to fix the hammer to tighten it up---a lot depends on how
loose it is---you can take a small ball peen hammer and peen around wher
the sw hole goes  thru the hammer---I prefer to use a center punch ground
sharp and punch the hammer in about 4 places around the sw----a lot of
old timers did this if the hammer is not too loose ---next option is to
slide a piece of shim in the gap---another option is to flow silver
soulder into the square and refile it ---my first chouice is the peening
with a sharp pointed punch close to the edge to the hole so that the
screw covers the marks---Just in my humbel opinion of course___

hawk
Michael pierce

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loose hammer
Date: 10 Apr 2000 13:58:53 EDT

> The hammer on my flintlock fusil is a mite loose....mebbe
>  a .001 or .002... the square hole a bit large from use.

First make sure it is the hammer and not the tumbler.  Your lockplate hole
might be enlarged.

> What would be the  best way to tighten it up?

A simple shim made from brass shim stock is probably best.  Don't go peening
everything unless it is a last resort.  Even aluminum foil might work as a
shim.

> I'm thinkin silver solder may work, then file
>  down, but don't know if it would stick to steel and wonder about the
heat...

There is a possibility that you could remove the temper from the tumbler.
Again. its the last resort.

Dave

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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: wood curl
Date: 10 Apr 2000 13:16:04 -0500

    One old timer, who specialized in selling real nice curly maple stock
blanks, once told me, "It jes happens" and that it takes an experienced eye
to spot the trees with good curl.
    That answer probably does not help a bit but it is lot more fun than
John Kramer's very detailed response.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wood curl
Date: 10 Apr 2000 15:01:11 EDT

<<<<"It jes happens" and that it takes an experienced eye to spot the trees with good curl.>>>

Haaaaaa....yeah, but that John Krammer sure knows his stuff!

Ymos,
Steve


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loose hammer
Date: 10 Apr 2000 15:07:20 EDT

<<<First make sure it is the hammer and not the tumbler.>>>>
Yup....it's the hammer like I said.

<<<A simple shim made from brass shim stock is probably best.  Don't go peening everything unless it is a last resort.  Even aluminum foil might work as a shim.>>>

Hmmm...good idea, I'll try the alum. foil but don't know where I'd find some brass that thin...

Thanks Dave, Hawk, I'll let you know what worked...

Ymos,
Steve

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From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loose hammer
Date: 10 Apr 2000 13:03:02 -0700

Most hobby supply shops carry different guages of sheet brass

Vic

><<<First make sure it is the hammer and not the tumbler.>>>>
>Yup....it's the hammer like I said.
>
><<<A simple shim made from brass shim stock is probably best.  Don't go
>peening everything unless it is a last resort.  Even aluminum foil might
>work as a shim.>>>
>
>Hmmm...good idea, I'll try the alum. foil but don't know where I'd find
>some brass that thin...
>
>Thanks Dave, Hawk, I'll let you know what worked...
>
>Ymos,
>Steve
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
AMM #1537
Three Rivers Party

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Howdy
Date: 10 Apr 2000 13:10:31 -0700


My name is Kristopher Barrett, and I have been involved with
shooting for a few decades, and blackpowder shooting for the past
few years. I did put together a CVA .45 percussion kit years ago,
and eventually sold it as a wall hanger ( looked good for a first
attempt...).
I have bought a few more firearms since then...

I have been involved with a local buckskinning group for the past
two years. I have not done anything outstandingly stupid enough to
earn my "Name" yet. Give me time....

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loose hammer
Date: 10 Apr 2000 16:30:33 -0600

On some lock parts that are made of steel, I have put them in a vice and
built up the part with a wire feed welde or you can use a torch with brass
rod and flux. This had better be done by someone who is an expert with
either of these tools.
YMOS
Ole
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loose hammer
>Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000, 11:58 AM
>

>> The hammer on my flintlock fusil is a mite loose....mebbe
>>  a .001 or .002... the square hole a bit large from use.
>
>First make sure it is the hammer and not the tumbler.  Your lockplate hole
>might be enlarged.
>
>> What would be the  best way to tighten it up?
>
>A simple shim made from brass shim stock is probably best.  Don't go peening
>everything unless it is a last resort.  Even aluminum foil might work as a
>shim.
>
>> I'm thinkin silver solder may work, then file
>>  down, but don't know if it would stick to steel and wonder about the
>heat...
>
>There is a possibility that you could remove the temper from the tumbler.
>Again. its the last resort.
>
>Dave
>
>----------------------
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>

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From: "Matthew Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Grinding coffee
Date: 10 Apr 2000 17:30:32 -0500

    Maybe by making coffee with whole beans it took longer to "cook"
all the flavor out and was a form of conservation of a precious
commodity.
    Or it might be that some liked whole beans and some liked grounded
beans.
    That's just my 2 cents worth.

YMHS
Matt Porter


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From: David Van Vorous <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mtman-list: loose Hammer
Date: 10 Apr 2000 15:39:55 PDT

 =

> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:08:30 EDT
> From: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: loose hammer
> =

> Hallo the List,
> =

> Think I'll pass on the coffee beans too, and go with the smashed....
> =

> Next question..... The hammer on my flintlock fusil is a mite
>loose....mebbe  a .001 or .002... the square hole a bit large from use. =
>What
would be the  best way to tighten it... =

> Ymos,
> Steve
> =


Know its been covered a fair bit. Might add an old machinist trick in lie=
u of
the staking (or alternative to) approach. Use a ball bearing thats just a=
 tad
over the hole size instead of the punch. Remove the cock, put the bearing=
 on
the hole and smack same smartly with a hammer. This tends to uniformly di=
stort
the sides and yields an overall consistent upset around the hole. =


Keep yer powder dry,

D.

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From: Charles  P Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loose hammer
Date: 11 Apr 2000 09:53:55 -0600

Hello All,
I will make a comment or two  here,  To Silver solder/ braze, the entire
piece (hammer) must be brought up to near cherry red  for soft  or medium
jewelers solder to flow ,   ( of course with the proper flux.).  This
heat usually causes a fire scale that causes the hammer to require
refinishing. (browning/blueing).   A small dollop from a wire feed welder
 can be  placed into the flat of the hole then let cool completely before
doing a second flat , again let cool etc.  This will not cause the need
for refinishing, simply dressing down the small dollop so the hammer fits
the tumbler shank.  Shim stock is not a problem to locate and will work
very well as will the peening process.  I have restored many original
firearms flint and  percussion that  displayed  peening marks  that had
been done by some gunsmith or blacksmith on the underside of the hammer
years ago, simply  to tighten the fit to the tumbler.   Since I have
witnessed this peening I believe it to be authentic.  Another method I
have seen is to drill  an 1/8 in hole with the hammer on the tumbler
shank into both the hammer and the shank then install a tight fitting
short pin and then replace the hammer screw.  I am at present working on
an old shooter with a Golcher lock and this is how someone long ago
tightened it  up, it is still tight today.  Even though I have never used
this method, I know it has worked in the past.
    I have often stooped so low as to cut shim material from those spent
unmentionable little brass devices some modern folks stuff into the
breech of their shooters.  .38 spec and .44-40 are very thin, .45 LC is
thicker etc.  I of course  I only
find these unmentionable items  on the ground while  foraging about  in
these Colorado hills.  Being a concerned person I usually pick up such
debris and pack it out of the woods with me.<<<GGG>>>


Respectfully,
The Old Coyote

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From: "Matthew Hawley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:getting started
Date: 11 Apr 2000 11:00:42 PDT



Hello


______________________________________________________
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From: "Matthew Hawley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:getting started
Date: 11 Apr 2000 11:04:40 PDT



Hello
i have been in muzzle loading for three years know and i am looking for
anyone who would have a list of persons who make costom knife,hawk, and guns
sets? Also would any one know the recipe to make parched corn?
          Matt (white eagle)



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:getting started
Date: 11 Apr 2000 11:25:40 -0700

White Eagle,

Can't help a whole lot on the custom "kit" makers but I can get you fed
while your looking. Parched corn is made out of either dried (on the cob)
sweet corn or Indian corn. The sweet corn is all wrinkly in it's dry form
and the Indian corn is quit hard. Strike up yourself a camp fire, put a
small handful of either in a sheet iron skillet and stir the corn over the
fire like you were gona make popcorn. The kernels will swell and perhaps
split. Some may even "pop" a bit but will not puff up like "pop corn". When
the corn kernels have puffed up as much as they will and before they start
to burn, they are done. No grease or oil is needed. You can add some brown
sugar, maple sugar, or molasses after it is done and cook the sugars down
until they stick to the parched corn but this will make them draw moisture
and should be do advisedly.

Once you have your parched corn you can pound it into a meal and mix with
dry brown sugars or use it plain as a mix for a "poor man's" mush or drink
base. You can eat the parched whole kernels as is if you want. The sweet
corn will be naturally chewy and naturally sweeter than the parched Indian
corn. Good luck and enjoy. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Elk Pants F/S
Date: 11 Apr 2000 12:58:07 -0700 (MST)



Elk Hide Pants For Sale

Got a pair of Chrome Tanned Elk Hide
Pants that I need to sell.  Can be easly
to look like Brain, or Bark Tanner.

They are Waist Size 37-38, with an
Inseem lenth of 34.

They are like new as they were tried on,
purchased, and I lost 25++ Pounds.

They were made by Greg Arana of New Mexico

They have Fring on both legs about 6 inches
in lenth.  Have a Single Line Fly ( Like Levi 501
with Elk Horn Buttons, and Button for Suspenders.

More details plaase e-mail me privately, and not on list

--
A.K.A.  Penny Pincher




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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 11 Apr 2000 21:15:05 -0600

Hello the list,

Been pretty quiet around here.  Guess everyone's out brain tanning like I've
been.  Got one hide done, another will be done tonight, and start serious
pulling on a third one tomarrow.

Like to hear some of your tips and favorite ways to take care of this task.

I use a metal band, a la Paul Dinsmore, then stretch it out over my knees
and a rope.  The band gets a nice fuzzy surface.

This is the best time of year for me, not too hot or too cold.

Let's hear from you tanners,

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country
Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country


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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 11 Apr 2000 21:50:42 -0700

Allan, I do all sorts of things, but 2 I've found to be a help are;
1)  I put an axe in my vice at the edge of my work bench, gripping the
head with the handle pointed straight up.  I then drape the hide over the
handle and pull down on each side.  This way I can use my weight, hanging
on the hide to stretch it good.
2) I put my small camp shovel in the vice, gripping on the place where
you'd put your foot.  Then I work the edge of the hide (all the way
around) back and forth over the shovel edge.  I found the edges hard to
work, and this method allows me to work the entire hide, no stiff edges.
   I'd be interested to hear of other methods also.  There is always a
new trick for this old dog to learn.
 Also, I prefer wet scraping, as opposed to the dry scrape method.  For a
fleshing beam I use a piece of PVC sewer pipe.  (hey I live in the
'burbs...cotton wood logs are hard to come by here.)  I use the back edge
of an old draw knife to do most of my scraping.      hardtack

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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: Changes OFF TOPIC]
Date: 12 Apr 2000 07:54:20 EDT

Hey,

What happened to the "Heirloom seed listing" on Clark & Sons Mercantile w=
eb
site, haven't visited for a spell, need somethings - no listings.

Anyone hear from Buck to what happened ??????

Concho Smith


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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 12 Apr 2000 07:44:10 -0500

Allen,
When......exactly....... does it get "hot" at your house?=20
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
Texas
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 10:15 PM


> Hello the list,
>=20
> Been pretty quiet around here.  Guess everyone's out brain tanning =
like I've
> been.  Got one hide done, another will be done tonight, and start =
serious
> pulling on a third one tomarrow.
>=20
> Like to hear some of your tips and favorite ways to take care of this =
task.
>=20
> I use a metal band, a la Paul Dinsmore, then stretch it out over my =
knees
> and a rope.  The band gets a nice fuzzy surface.
>=20
> This is the best time of year for me, not too hot or too cold. =20
>=20
> Let's hear from you tanners,
>=20
> Allen Hall in Fort Hall country
> Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 12 Apr 2000 05:51:51 -0700 (PDT)

Allen,

Some of what I do is similiar to what Randy does (with the exception that I
do dry scraping.)  I clamp the shovel blade of a military trenching tool in
a vice and work it in the same manner.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: FW: Fwd: Fw: Unreal -- Forgotten Facts
Date: 12 Apr 2000 07:46:55 -0600


----------
campbell" <[e-mail]>, "Sharon " <[e-mail]>,
"Todd" <[e-mail]>, "Karen" <[e-mail]>, "LAUNA
FARNSWORTH" <[e-mail]>


Sent:        4/8/1920 11:43 PM
Received:    4/10/2000 1:56 PM


----- Original Message -----


Forgotten Facts:

 Back in 1969 a group of Black Panthers decided
 that a fellow black named Alex Rackley needed to die.  Rackley
 was a fellow Panther suspected of disloyalty.
 Rackley was first tied to a chair.  Once safely immobilized
 his 'friends' tortured him for hours by, among other things,
 pouring boiling water on him.  When they got tired of
 torturing Rackley, Black Panther member Warren Kimbo took Mr.
 Rackley outside and put a bullet in his head.  Rackley's body
 was later found floating in a river about 25 miles north of
 New Haven, Conn.

Perhaps at this point you're curious as to what happened to
these Black Panthers.  In 1977, that's only eight years later,
only one of the killers was still in jail.  The shooter,
Warren Kimbro, managed to get a scholarship to Harvard.
He later became an assistant dean at Eastern Connecticut
State College.

Isn't that something?  As a '60s radical you can pump a bullet
into someone's head, and a few years later, in the same state,
you can become an assistant college dean!  Only in America!

Erica Huggins was the lady who served the Panthers by boiling
the water for Mr.  Rackley's torture.  Some years later Ms.
Huggins was elected to a California School Board.

How in the world do you think these killers got off so easy?
Maybe it was in some part due to the efforts of two people who
came to the defense of the Panthers.

These two people actually went so far as to shut down Yale
University with demonstrations in defense of the accused Black
Panthers during their trial.

One of these people was none other than Bill Lan Lee.  Mr.
Lee, or Mr. Lan Lee, as the case may be, isn't a college dean.
He isn't a member of a California School Board.  He is now
head of the U.S.  Justice Department's Civil Rights Division.
O.K., so who was the other Panther defender?  Is this other
notable Panther defender now a school board member?  Is this
other Panther apologist now an assistant college dean?

No, Neither!
The other Panther defender was, like Lee, a radical law
student at Yale University at the time.  She is now known as
The "smartest woman in the world." She is none other than the
unofficial Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate from the
State of New York----our lovely First Lady, the incredible
Hillary Rodham Clinton.








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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loose hammer
Date: 12 Apr 2000 07:12:17 -0700

Steve,
Send me an address off line and I'll send you a small piece of brass shim
about .01 thick.
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 12:07 PM


> <<<First make sure it is the hammer and not the tumbler.>>>>
> Yup....it's the hammer like I said.
>
> <<<A simple shim made from brass shim stock is probably best.  Don't go
peening everything unless it is a last resort.  Even aluminum foil might
work as a shim.>>>
>
> Hmmm...good idea, I'll try the alum. foil but don't know where I'd find
some brass that thin...
>
> Thanks Dave, Hawk, I'll let you know what worked...
>
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 12 Apr 2000 08:41:12 -0600

Gee guys, I use a 54 inch setting out machine powered by a 30 hp
motor to stretch hides. Dave Bethke in American Falls loves to
stretch his hides on this baby. Sure gets the job done

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: bloodroot
Date: 12 Apr 2000 08:42:46 -0600

I just returned from Nebr and picked some "bloodroot"  I know some of
its uses by indians, any other notes on this plant?

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FW: Fwd: Fw: Unreal -- Forgotten Facts
Date: 12 Apr 2000 07:45:51 -0700

On 12 Apr 00, at 7:46, Ole B. Jensen wrote:
> Forgotten Facts:
>
>  Back in 1969 a group of Black Panthers decided

And this relates to Buckskinning and Blackpowder shooting in
what fashion?

Kristopher K. Barrett

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bloodroot
Date: 12 Apr 2000 11:28:22 -0400

"bloodroot"

The juice is a good sore throat remedy...
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: Changes OFF TOPIC]
Date: 12 Apr 2000 08:30:42 -0700

On Wed, 12 April 2000, Concho Smith wrote:
> Hey,
>
> What happened to the "Heirloom seed listing" on Clark & Sons Mercantile web site, haven't visited for a spell, need somethings - no listings.
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Concho and friends,

After talking to several of the "Heirloom Seed" producers (4) that supplied us, it was brought to our attention that there are several period shops advertising these seeds, which have turned out to be modern seeds no earlier variety than 1900.

These firms have been written about in several resent articles in period magazines as having  "Heirloom Seeds" but one merchant has mentioned he gets his seeds from BURPEE and GURNEY's old time seed collection, sorry folks that's not "Heirloom".

Rather than being labeled with these groups - firms  misleading customers on what they are buying, it was decided to get out of that end of the business.

I have some "heirloom seeds" left and will make someone a deal on them as a group lot, if interested contact me OFF LIST.

Thanks

Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
[e-mail]


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FW: Fwd: Fw: Unreal -- Forgotten Facts
Date: 12 Apr 2000 12:06:31 -0700

Okay, somehow I'm missing the connection?

Frank

"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:

> ----------
> From: Peggy Clyde <[e-mail]>
> To: "cory" <[e-mail]>, "danny" <[e-mail]>, "sandy
> campbell" <[e-mail]>, "Sharon " <[e-mail]>,
> "Todd" <[e-mail]>, "Karen" <[e-mail]>, "LAUNA
> FARNSWORTH" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Fwd: Fw: Unreal -- Forgotten Facts
> Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000, 11:00 PM
>
> Subject:     Fw: Unreal -- Forgotten Facts
> Sent:        4/8/1920 11:43 PM
> Received:    4/10/2000 1:56 PM
> From:        Arlene Ward, [e-mail]
> To:          Undisclosed-Recipient:;@infowest.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: VERA HIRSCHI
> Subject: Unreal!
>
> Forgotten Facts:
>
>  Back in 1969 a group of Black Panthers decided
>  that a fellow black named Alex Rackley needed to die.  Rackley
>  was a fellow Panther suspected of disloyalty.
>  Rackley was first tied to a chair.  Once safely immobilized
>  his 'friends' tortured him for hours by, among other things,
>  pouring boiling water on him.  When they got tired of
>  torturing Rackley, Black Panther member Warren Kimbo took Mr.
>  Rackley outside and put a bullet in his head.  Rackley's body
>  was later found floating in a river about 25 miles north of
>  New Haven, Conn.
>
> Perhaps at this point you're curious as to what happened to
> these Black Panthers.  In 1977, that's only eight years later,
> only one of the killers was still in jail.  The shooter,
> Warren Kimbro, managed to get a scholarship to Harvard.
> He later became an assistant dean at Eastern Connecticut
> State College.
>
> Isn't that something?  As a '60s radical you can pump a bullet
> into someone's head, and a few years later, in the same state,
> you can become an assistant college dean!  Only in America!
>
> Erica Huggins was the lady who served the Panthers by boiling
> the water for Mr.  Rackley's torture.  Some years later Ms.
> Huggins was elected to a California School Board.
>
> How in the world do you think these killers got off so easy?
> Maybe it was in some part due to the efforts of two people who
> came to the defense of the Panthers.
>
> These two people actually went so far as to shut down Yale
> University with demonstrations in defense of the accused Black
> Panthers during their trial.
>
> One of these people was none other than Bill Lan Lee.  Mr.
> Lee, or Mr. Lan Lee, as the case may be, isn't a college dean.
> He isn't a member of a California School Board.  He is now
> head of the U.S.  Justice Department's Civil Rights Division.
> O.K., so who was the other Panther defender?  Is this other
> notable Panther defender now a school board member?  Is this
> other Panther apologist now an assistant college dean?
>
> No, Neither!
> The other Panther defender was, like Lee, a radical law
> student at Yale University at the time.  She is now known as
> The "smartest woman in the world." She is none other than the
> unofficial Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate from the
> State of New York----our lovely First Lady, the incredible
> Hillary Rodham Clinton.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 12 Apr 2000 12:44:07 -0600

At 07:44 AM 04/12/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Allen,
>When......exactly....... does it get "hot" at your house?
>YMOS
>Lanney Ratcliff
>Texas

Well, it gets pretty hot around here when I draped a drying hide over my
wife's chair.  That woman has no sense of humor..........

Other than that it's occasionally hot in the July, when it doesn't snow!!!

Allen


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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 12 Apr 2000 12:47:43 -0600

At 08:41 AM 04/12/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>Gee guys, I use a 54 inch setting out machine powered by a 30 hp
>motor to stretch hides. Dave Bethke in American Falls loves to
>stretch his hides on this baby. Sure gets the job done
>
>Joe

Sure Joe, rub it in!

I'll have to go see Dave's stretching machine.  One of Crazy's friends on
the Fort Hall reservation has a secret stretching machine, but he won't show
anyone.

Allen


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From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Grinding Coffee
Date: 12 Apr 2000 15:11:23 -0500

No need to speculate on at least one way coffee was ground.  In "A Tour on the Prairies" by Washington Irving, 1835 (Dean Rudy's web site has a link to the Naked World's free online version) Irving says in various places:

"Indeed our coffee, which, as long as it held out, had been served up with every meal, according to the custom of the West, was by no means a beverage to boast of. It was roasted in a frying-pan. without much care, pounded in a leathern bag, with a
round stone, and boiled in our prime and almost only kitchen utensil, the camp kettle, in "branch" or brook water; which, on the prairies, is deeply colored by the soil, of which it always holds abundant particles in a state of solution and
suspension."

"We gave them food, and, what they most relished, coffee; for the Indians partake in the universal fondness for this beverage, which pervades the West. "

"With all this, our beverage was coffee, boiled in a camp kettle, sweetened with brown sugar, and drunk out of tin cups: and such was the style of our banqueting throughout this expedition, whenever provisions were plenty, and as long as flour and
coffee and sugar held out."

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner




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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 12 Apr 2000 14:30:57 -0600

The friend of Crazy's is Hilbert Fisher, he bought a stakeing machine
from an guy after coming to my tannery and testing hides on mine. It
does work well, He did give me a line of sh-t about how we would go
into business in brain tanning and all the money, when in reality he
pumped for information. If he would of just asked me, I would of
gladly assisted him. I have another setting out machine for sale and
once in a while come across a staking machine. They really stretch
the hides and do a great job on the edges. Anyone is welcome to come
to our tannery for a tour and if you want to stretch some hides,
great, I will show you the machine and let you try it.

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 12 Apr 2000 16:46:45 -0400

> Joe Wrote:
"I will show you the machine and let you try it."

  And anyone that wants try out a hand rasp to shape a hawk handle or finish
file a blade, c'mon by my shop when Joe is done with you and I will gladly
let you..<BG> Shades of Tom Sawyer, Joe?<G>
Seriously though, I have been fascinated at the "fleshing Machine" a local
taxidermist has.,. THAT  is neat...
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"

,




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Grinding Coffee
Date: 12 Apr 2000 17:28:30 EDT

<<<<It was roasted in a frying-pan. without much care, pounded in a
leathern bag, with a
round stone, and boiled in our prime and almost only kitchen utensil, the
camp kettle, in "branch" or brook water;>>>>

Nice work Iron Burner.... That is the only reference I've ever seen/read about on how the coffee was "ground"... Seemed like a kinda dumb question when I posted it...I figured they must have just smashed the beans between some rocks and scraped up the pieces. At about $14 a lb for Starbucks, there had to be a better way....
Ymos,
Steve

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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tannin' time (was Unreal -- Forgotten Facts)
Date: 12 Apr 2000 17:35:57 -0500

Friends, I wasn't sure whether to ignore this one or dismiss it as an urban
myth.  All I can say for now is "who cares?".  Let's just call it an off
topic urban myth, and get on with what's really important.

Nice post on hide tannin.  The PVC pipe is a great idea.  I use a
cottonwood log that has seen better days.  Better replace it soon with
something a bit smoother, or all my skins will end up with odd looking
holes.

By the way, I had a great little rondy last weekend with about 30 pards
near Big Spring, TX.  Shooting was great.  The comradeship was even better
that's what it's all about.  The "mountain magic" made the rounds, too.
Folks, it's all about sharing the shinin' times.  WAUGH!!!!!

Cheers,
HBC

**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 12 Apr 2000 18:11:00 -0600

Allen,

I've used a number of scrappers to wet scrape, but by far and away the
best one I've used is the planer blade which can be purchased at
braintan.com for about $10.00

As a stretcher and breaker, I buried a piece of 2" steel pipe in the
ground leaving about 3 feet sticking straight up. Then I drop one of
those half round lawn edgers in handle down and go to work. It doesn't
have to sharp of an edge cause I still use it on the lawn from time to
time.

A cable secured to a tree is a great stretcher and breaker also.


"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party Pilgrim

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From: "J. Fluhmann" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tannin' time (was Unreal -- Forgotten Facts)
Date: 13 Apr 2000 07:46:39 -0500

Greetings all.... I have been lurking in the shadows and learning a lot here
for some time. I am also one of the 30 that was fortunate enough to share a
campfire with our friend Henry at the rendezvous near Big Spring. I've never
met a finer or more knowledgeable person in my life.  Henry my friend, I
hope to share another campfire with ya soon. I'll bring another bottle
too...<BG>

John "Butt Ugly" Fluhmann
http://www.jkcc.com/bloodbrothers/index/bpmsp.html


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 5:35 PM


<snip>
> By the way, I had a great little rondy last weekend with about 30 pards
> near Big Spring, TX.  Shooting was great.  The comradeship was even better
> that's what it's all about.  The "mountain magic" made the rounds, too.
> Folks, it's all about sharing the shinin' times.  WAUGH!!!!!
>
> Cheers,
> HBC
>
> **********************************
> Henry B. Crawford
> Curator of History
> Museum of Texas Tech University
> Box 43191
> Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> [e-mail]
> 806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
> Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FW: Fwd: Fw: Unreal -- Forgotten Facts
Date: 12 Apr 2000 19:11:31 -0600

Well, for one thing, if Mrs. Clinton becomes the Senator from N.Y. you can
bet that sooner or later your guns, even front stuffers, will be very damned
hard to own there.
-----Original Message-----


On 12 Apr 00, at 7:46, Ole B. Jensen wrote:
> Forgotten Facts:
>
>  Back in 1969 a group of Black Panthers decided

And this relates to Buckskinning and Blackpowder shooting in
what fashion?

Kristopher K. Barrett

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: A J MIller
Date: 12 Apr 2000 10:39:28 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFA46B.60CA7480
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is the book Alfred Jacob Miller Artist on the Oregon Trail the best book =
to get to give me a good overview of the period work of this artist?  =
Are there others?

YMOS

WY=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is the book Alfred Jacob Miller Artist =
on the=20
Oregon Trail the best book to get to give me a good overview of the =
period work=20
of this artist?  Are there others?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>WY</FONT> </DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 12 Apr 2000 21:42:01 -0600

Hello,

Do you guys have good luck on one braining, or more?  I find that larger
hides (we mostly have mule deer here) need at least 2 brainings.

Kinda curious,

Allen


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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mecate Continued
Date: 12 Apr 2000 11:06:05 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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A note to Mr John Funk Jr and any others who are interested=20

Since we discussed the period correctness of the mecate I have taken a =
careful look at one of Kurt's plates that Dean has so kindly made =
available to us. In an 1851 drawing of "Californians" the fellow in the =
foreground appears to have a rope that connects his bit to his saddle. =
It is of the same thickness as his reins but the actual connection at =
either end is not shown.=20

As with so many sources in this game it is not a clear and definitive. =
Californian may not be RMFTs, Kurtz is later than 1840, and the =
assumptions of what and where are mine, but you can add it to the list =
of references and maybe some day we will have enough of them to convince =
even the likes of Long Walker and Angela!

YMOS

WY


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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>A note to Mr John Funk Jr and any others who are interested </P>
<P>Since we discussed the period correctness of the mecate I have taken =
a=20
careful look at one of Kurt’s plates that Dean has so kindly made =
available to=20
us. In an 1851 drawing of "Californians" the fellow in the foreground =
appears to=20
have a rope that connects his bit to his saddle. It is of the same =
thickness as=20
his reins but the actual connection at either end is not shown. </P>
<P>As with so many sources in this game it is not a clear and =
definitive.=20
Californian may not be RMFTs, Kurtz is later than 1840, and the =
assumptions of=20
what and where are mine, but you can add it to the list of references =
and maybe=20
some day we will have enough of them to convince even the likes of Long =
Walker=20
and Angela!</P>
<P>YMOS</P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 12 Apr 2000 22:44:49 -0700

Allen,    The last two hides I tanned were shot at the same time, in the
same area (by a work pal).  I planned on making a pair of 'primo'
leggings from the two hides, one hide for each leg.  I did them both the
same way.  One hide came out fine with one braining, the other was rather
stiff.  I rebrained it, and rebrained it, etc...    Due to needing the
leggings for a canoe trip, I squeezed a decent pair of leggings out of
the one soft hide.  I asked crazy coyote's wife about the stubborn hide
at the '98 National (Pierre's Hole).  She informed me that this 'happens
sometimes', she gave me alot of other neat info too...but the point is-
sometimes a hide will be stubborn.  The second hide still has some stiff
parts, I worked the H**L out of it.....  after cutting, you can see the
layer of glue in the center of the hide in the stiff parts.  From what I
have been able to find out 'this happens sometimes'....    Our local deer
are rather small, and the hides usually turn out fine with one braining,
but this one hide made me work REAL hard, and it still has some stiff
parts.  It is still useful for many things, but it is not my 'dream'
hide.   I've been told that I don't have enough brains to tan my own
hide, perhaps this deer and I are related?       hardtack

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Treasures found!
Date: 13 Apr 2000 01:06:18 -0500

Washtahay-
    having a need for a guest room, I decided to clear out a closet (to store
the junk from the future guest room of course-this will make sense to
some).  Turns out the large closet is actually a room... I guess I forgot.
Haven't been in there since the divorce.
    What gets worse is that I actually found a closet in the room!  Under the
junk in the closet was a green cassette-a late period HBC cassette.
Holding about 35 tapes of conversations with Charles Hanson back in '84.
    But the real treasure was a spiral notebook Charles gave me as a going
away present when I left Chadron State College.  In it is listed the
whereabouts (as of 1984) of every North West gun Charles knew of...  I miss
that old man some times.
LongWalker c. du B.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mecate Continued
Date: 13 Apr 2000 01:01:20 -0500

Washtahay-
At 11:06 AM 4/12/00 -0600, you wrote:
>    A note to Mr John Funk Jr and any others who are interested  Since we
>discussed the period correctness of the mecate I have taken a  careful look
>at one of Kurt’s plates that Dean has so kindly made available to
>us. In an 1851 drawing of "Californians" the fellow in the foreground
>appears to  have a rope that connects his bit to his saddle. It is of the
>same thickness as  his reins but the actual connection at either end is not
>shown.
    I haven't been following this discussion-I'm not a horseman (though I
think I own four this week).  There are references in the literature to
similar structures.  I am not sure where, but for some reason I think
Prince Maximillian described something similar.  If someone wants to remind
me in about July, I'll dig out the reference.

> As with so many sources in this game it is not a clear and
>definitive.  Californian may not be RMFTs, Kurtz is later than 1840, and
>the assumptions of  what and where are mine, but you can add it to the list
>of references and maybe  some day we will have enough of them to convince
>even the likes of Long Walker  and Angela! YMOS WY
    Oh, I needed a laugh like that!  And I am even in good company!
LongWalker c.du B.



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From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A J MIller
Date: 13 Apr 2000 06:03:07 PDT


I just finished a book entitled "The west of Alfred Jacob Miller."  It was
well done, and each painting or sketch was accompanied by the artist's
narrative.


Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treasures found!
Date: 13 Apr 2000 06:03:17 -0700

On Wed, 12 April 2000, [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Washtahay-
>     having a need for a guest room, I decided to clear out a closet (to store
> the junk from the future guest room of course-this will make sense to
> some).  Turns out the large closet is actually a room... I guess I forgot.
> Haven't been in there since the divorce.
>     What gets worse is that I actually found a closet in the room!  Under the
> junk in the closet was a green cassette-a late period HBC cassette.
> Holding about 35 tapes of conversations with Charles Hanson back in '84.
>     But the real treasure was a spiral notebook Charles gave me as a going
> away present when I left Chadron State College.  In it is listed the
> whereabouts (as of 1984) of every North West gun Charles knew of...  I miss
> that old man some times.
> LongWalker c. du B.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have a like list, and after contacting several of the known owners have found that many of those great guns have left home and their where abouts are unknown. One of Charley's boys said they knew I'd keep my three, but wondered where they would go when I went under - a nice way of dropping a hint to leave them to the musuem.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 13 Apr 2000 08:43:55 -0600

We have tanned many different hides from all over the world. You will
always find that some hides tan easily and break soft, while others
just don't. Each animal has a slightly different chemical makeup.
Each tanner, wheather brain tanning or commercial tanning will find
this out if he/she tans lots of hides. You have to adapt to each
hide. It is frustrating at times and some folks just don't understand
why THEIR hide isn't as nice as others they have seen.
Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: mushrooms
Date: 13 Apr 2000 08:48:42 -0600

Jim Lindberg

I don't know your personal email address. Many many thanks for the
mushrooms and how to pages. I charred some of them and they are
great. I will be sharing them with my scouts. Please let me know if I
can respond in kind. Maybe some tanning.

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner.
Date: 13 Apr 2000 09:21:30 -0600

Bill,

I can send you a sample of latigo I have to see if it will work.

I like the book, just found the (for your information paper) on the
prices, so disregard the last note. Send us 10 books, and these
pamplets

Slouch Hat        2
Trousers        5
Moccasins        5
Starting a Fire    5
Dutch Oven    5
Sharp Knife    5
Gourd Canteen    5
Bucksaw        2
Lazybacks        3
Snowshoes    3
Pommel bags    3
Rawhide        5
Stirrups        3
Tanning        2
Tacks        3
Scrimshaw    2

Let me know how much and I will send a check right away

Many thanks

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treasures found!
Date: 12 Apr 2000 22:44:41 -0400

BUCK  and longwalker
darn you have and have found a treasure is there any chance in you
xeroxing the notebook and shooting me a copy ---would be more than
willing to pay just to have the information in my reference
library---charley sure knew his stuff and i really enjoyed talking to him
and the knowledge he had stored between his ears---was always free to
share his experiences and research---know he is up ther cataloging and
researching  and preserving for the big maker---

contact me offline to make arangements


    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 13 Apr 2000 18:40:51 -0400

 I have a friend who is doing a report on the movie we all know, love and laugh
at(sometimes).  She needs to know what is wrong with the portrayal and what was
right.  If anyone can help...here address is

[e-mail]

Linda Holley


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 13 Apr 2000 19:19:23 -0400

Ooops, that movies is Last of the Mountain Men with Heston.

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

>  I have a friend who is doing a report on the movie we all know, love and laugh
> at(sometimes).  She needs to know what is wrong with the portrayal and what was
> right.  If anyone can help...here address is
>
> [e-mail]
>
> Linda Holley
>
> ----------------------
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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 13 Apr 2000 19:31:09 -0400

Are you sure it isnt "The Mountain Men" with Brian Keith And Charlton
Heston???
D


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From: "Frank V. Rago" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 13 Apr 2000 19:45:17 -0400

If it is "The Mountain Men" and you don't get much feedback, hell I will
just watch it for you and take notes.  It's a good'nuff reason to pull it
out and watch it again.

FVR




----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 7:31 PM


> Are you sure it isnt "The Mountain Men" with Brian Keith And Charlton
> Heston???
> D
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 13 Apr 2000 19:39:03 -0400

Yep, same here.. I just bought  a BRAND NEW copy at Hastings for $7.99///My
old one was gettin wore....
"I'll die if I don't get some WHIISKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 7:45 PM


> If it is "The Mountain Men" and you don't get much feedback, hell I will
> just watch it for you and take notes.  It's a good'nuff reason to pull it
> out and watch it again.
>
> FVR
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 7:31 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
>
>
> > Are you sure it isnt "The Mountain Men" with Brian Keith And Charlton
> > Heston???
> > D
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 13 Apr 2000 17:42:21 -0600

Allen,

I've known some experiemced tanners who get good results with one
braining, but probably just as many have confessed that they usually do
two or three brainings to get a real nice hide.
I've come to figure on two everytime .

Todd

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 13 Apr 2000 20:35:40 -0400

Ok>>>>it is the Mountain Man.  Maybe it should have been the Last of the
Mountain men.   And my friend could use the feedback and what better place to
ask.....gentlemen???????     :-)

Linda Holley

D Miles wrote:

> Yep, same here.. I just bought  a BRAND NEW copy at Hastings for $7.99///My
> old one was gettin wore....
> "I'll die if I don't get some WHIISKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Frank V. Rago <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 7:45 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
>
> > If it is "The Mountain Men" and you don't get much feedback, hell I will
> > just watch it for you and take notes.  It's a good'nuff reason to pull it
> > out and watch it again.
> >
> > FVR
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 7:31 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
> >
> >
> > > Are you sure it isnt "The Mountain Men" with Brian Keith And Charlton
> > > Heston???
> > > D
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 13 Apr 2000 18:10:17 -0700

On Thu, 13 April 2000, "D Miles" wrote:

>
> Yep, same here.. I just bought  a BRAND NEW copy at Hastings for $7.99///My old one was gettin wore.... "I'll die if I don't get some WHIISKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
> D
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Frank V. Rago <[e-mail]>
> > If it is "The Mountain Men" and you don't get much feedback, hell I will
> > just watch it for you and take notes.  It's a good'nuff reason to pull it out and watch it again.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
> >
> > Are you sure it isnt "The Mountain Men" with Brian Keith And Charlton Heston???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey gang,

Who knows what the original name of this movie was going to be, they had even made up promotion posters, "T" shirts, etc. before checking if the original name was usuable - it wasn't.

Trapper Tom and myself ran "The American Sportsman" shoot at the filming and received silver and gold plated belt buckles for our efforts, that's how we found out about this name - which would have been a better title I always thought.

Linda may remember if she thinks about it.



Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tannin' Time
Date: 13 Apr 2000 18:48:12 -0700 (PDT)



On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 [e-mail] wrote:
> I've known some experiemced tanners who get good results with one
> braining, but probably just as many have confessed that they usually do
> two or three brainings to get a real nice hide.
> I've come to figure on two everytime .

Heck...

I don't feel so bad then.  I spent a lot of time on my very first braintan
hide recently, and wound up with a beautifully colored piece of
white cardboard.

Backe to the brainsoak.

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill


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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: article quote in local paper concerning muskets
Date: 13 Apr 2000 22:20:13 -0400 (EDT)

" the state of Massachusetts clamped trigger locks on two of the
historic muskets from Lexington and Concord that hang in the state
Senate chamber."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Treasures found!!!
Date: 13 Apr 2000 22:40:05 -0400 (EDT)

Longwalker, Buck, Hawk:
Maybe no coincidence that you found those gems, just as Hawk said - The
Great Spirit Father whom neighbor Charles Hanson is up there
fellowshipping with inspired your mind to take the steps that ye did?
Maybe even better is yet to come - sure hope so!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: "Donald A. Ricetti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 13 Apr 2000 22:50:34 -0400

Seems to me that the "original" title  was "Wind River". At least thats what they called it when they were filming it on the Snake River outside Jackson's Hole while I lived there, round abouts '77 or '78. Never will forgive my parents for
not loaning me a vehicle so I could haveat least been in some scenes.


Buck Conner wrote:

> On Thu, 13 April 2000, "D Miles" wrote:
>
> >
> > Yep, same here.. I just bought  a BRAND NEW copy at Hastings for $7.99///My old one was gettin wore.... "I'll die if I don't get some WHIISKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
> > D
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Frank V. Rago <[e-mail]>
> > > If it is "The Mountain Men" and you don't get much feedback, hell I will
> > > just watch it for you and take notes.  It's a good'nuff reason to pull it out and watch it again.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
> > >
> > > Are you sure it isnt "The Mountain Men" with Brian Keith And Charlton Heston???
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Hey gang,
>
> Who knows what the original name of this movie was going to be, they had even made up promotion posters, "T" shirts, etc. before checking if the original name was usuable - it wasn't.
>
> Trapper Tom and myself ran "The American Sportsman" shoot at the filming and received silver and gold plated belt buckles for our efforts, that's how we found out about this name - which would have been a better title I always thought.
>
> Linda may remember if she thinks about it.
>
> Later
> Buck Conner
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
>                   Aux Aliments de Pays!
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 13 Apr 2000 23:12:46 EDT

Have an original full size poster of "The Mountain Men" on my wall in
bedroom.  Most blatant error in this is the pistol Heston has in drawing has
hammer on right side and the frizzen on left side .


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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 13 Apr 2000 19:24:10 -0600

Well, here is another bit of inaccuracy- Frapp  (Henry Fraeb)dies in a fight
on the Snake River near the Wyo/ Colorado border. Been to the site with a few
of the other Baker Party members. He was put in a unmarked grave ( in the
ground)
and not buried Indian style. The film has a lot of stuff in it which we notice.
But
still enjoy watching it two to three times a year. (canvas tipis, the sounds the
guns make,
are just the start.)
                                            mike.

[e-mail] wrote:

> Have an original full size poster of "The Mountain Men" on my wall in
> bedroom.  Most blatant error in this is the pistol Heston has in drawing has
> hammer on right side and the frizzen on left side .
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Second braining
Date: 13 Apr 2000 21:00:50 -0600

Hello the list,

Funny, my very first hide came out fine with a single braining, but
everything else has taken 2.  I got some really big thick hides for my frock
coat and they took 3.

One thing I have done though, is smoke the hide after the first pulling.
That way anything you did get pulled out will stay soft after the second
braining.  I've done this a couple of times and now it's what I do everytime.

The smoke smell is less offensive to regular folks than plain brain smell,
which makes mama happy.

Hey, thanks for all the comments, this is interesting.  And for you folks
that haven't made brain tan yet, it's just not all that tough.  Give it a try!

Allen

>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 14 Apr 2000 00:00:55 EDT

Hello in the camp!  On that belt Buckle of mine it has Wind River Rendezvous.
 Yepers, I got in on the makein of that one. In fact that shoot you were
talking about Buck was the day I show up and bribed my way in by giving
Heston a ceramic statue of a mountain man I had made. Up until then they had
told me they had all the extras they needed.
  The one thing I thought they done a good job on was the horse tack They
even had one saddle in the movie that looks like the Grimsley Hybrid Saddle.
                                                        Crazy Cyot

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 14 Apr 2000 00:32:28 EDT

So the movie sort of is factual?

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 14 Apr 2000 00:54:44 EDT

Well, it was about Mountain men and we know they did exist. Oh yeah, They
were some indians portrayed (haha).

p.s.  I've watched it several times too!!

Wade "Sleeps loudly" Smith
Meridian, Id

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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 13 Apr 2000 23:12:22 -0700

It was a fictional story, which borrowed (loosely) on some real
characters and situations.  Bill Tylers run from the blackfeet = Colter's
run.  Frapp (Fraeb) was a real character, but he spoke english poorly (as
he was a german). Nat Wyeth was a real character, and an ice merchant
(invented an ice cutting device, etc..) from Boston.  He did have plans
to send salmon east in barrels, etc...   Do not take the Movie as fact
though.....   loosely based on some reality...   I've watched it too many
times though...I love it..it is fun...   hardtack

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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 14 Apr 2000 05:34:49 -0700

On Thu, 13 April 2000, [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Hello in the camp!  On that belt Buckle of mine it has Wind River Rendezvous.
>  Yepers, I got in on the makein of that one. In fact that shoot you were
> talking about Buck was the day I show up and bribed my way in by giving
> Heston a ceramic statue of a mountain man I had made. Up until then they had
> told me they had all the extras they needed.
>   The one thing I thought they done a good job on was the horse tack They
> even had one saddle in the movie that looks like the Grimsley Hybrid Saddle.
>                                                         Crazy Cyot
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Crazy that's correct the original name was to be "Wind River Rendezvous", but because of an agreement between the Hollywood movie companies if more than two words where the same as another movie made before the current one - within that year, they couldn't use the name !

Never did figure out what movie came out with two of the three words ???

You showing up at that shoot, you will remember me making Chuck eat the raw egg he missed in that one event, later he wanted me to eat a raw egg - I did in a glass of beer. Then he gave Trapper and myself belt buckles for running the event - think American Sportsman show paid for them, whatever.

We where on the set for three weeks, saw the first Indians - hadn't missed many meals, so the ones they used where from the American Indian Rodeo Assn., all bow legged, slim and good horsemen. Several groups where from the Rosebud Rev. - even "Iron Eyes Cody" was there, got to visit with him and Bryan Keith many times in our camp at Hoback Junction.

Fun times, had some nice people working there, saw folks that we hadn't seen for years, we (Trapper and myself) probably gave the word to let you in if you looked pretty good. We worked with Jerry Crandell (mountainman artist and movie advertiser) on making suggestions on clothing on workers, etc. No matter how you "bird dog" such an operation, still some questionables seek in. I work walk around gathering olive drab army blanket that locals brought in to keep warm, go back through 3-4 hours later and theres more of them. To work that scene day after day like they do we would all quit.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 14 Apr 2000 05:51:50 -0700

On Thu, 13 April 2000, Randal J Bublitz wrote:
> It was a fictional story, which borrowed (loosely) on some real characters and situations.  Bill Tylers run from the blackfeet = Colter's run.  Frapp (Fraeb) was a real character, but he spoke english poorly (as he was a german). Nat Wyeth was a real character, and .........
> times though...I love it..it is fun...   hardtack
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's the bottom line, you loved it and have watched it many many times, like they say that's show business.....

Very few films are acturate, in the last few years they have done better making them more correct, but time is money and it takes time to gather correct loding, clothing, weapons and equipage, etc. Of all the movies that have come out in the last 10-15 years, take a look at "Black Robe", you watch that one and those folks even look blue when cold - you may go get a sweater too.

I was very hard with my comments and remarks about inacturate things found when viewing a period show until getting involved in a half dozen such events, and now can understand just a few of the problems; money, actors, back ground actors, unions, feeding, props, etc.- overall they are doing better and seem to be going in the right direction, we hope.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: "Kevin Pitman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 14 Apr 2000 06:18:09 PDT

Actually (and most humbly) the line is :If I don't get some whiskey soon I'm
gonna dieeeeeeee!!!

ymos,
Kevin

>From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:39:03 -0400
>
>Yep, same here.. I just bought  a BRAND NEW copy at Hastings for $7.99///My
>old one was gettin wore....
>"I'll die if I don't get some WHIISKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
>D
>
>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Frank V. Rago <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 7:45 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
>
>
> > If it is "The Mountain Men" and you don't get much feedback, hell I will
> > just watch it for you and take notes.  It's a good'nuff reason to pull
>it
> > out and watch it again.
> >
> > FVR
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 7:31 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
> >
> >
> > > Are you sure it isnt "The Mountain Men" with Brian Keith And Charlton
> > > Heston???
> > > D
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

______________________________________________________
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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 14 Apr 2000 09:31:29 -0400

Kevin.
You are absolutley right, and for my grevious error, I will bag work in the
shop today and review the movie once again. Ohhh, the things I do for
accuracy..<G>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Puppet info Pre-1840
Date: 14 Apr 2000 10:44:02 -0400

I know... this is strange, but I got a request on my web page for anyone who
might have ingo on Pre-1840 puppets, etc... It was from Lori and Mark Maas,
and they are involved with the Fort Atkinson historical site. They have
about 1000 kids from the local schools go thru each Ronny, and would like to
put on a puppet sho for them, but they want to do it "period" style.  If any
one has any info, or knows where they can find it, please email them at
[e-mail]

Thanks...

Ad Miller


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 14 Apr 2000 11:00:22 EDT

In a message dated 4/14/00 6:20:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Actually (and most humbly) the line is :If I don't get some whiskey soon
I'm
 gonna dieeeeeeee!!! >>

   As it happens, I have this line on a sound (.wav) file if anyone wants it
shoot me a line off list.

Longshot

"Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage"
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Ebay Alert
Date: 14 Apr 2000 10:22:41 -0600

Ho the List,

For those of you out there that use Ebay to find some good items, here's one
I found. A while back folks were asking about Mable Morrow's book, "Indian
Rawhide". It's available as auction #307211869 INDIAN RAWHIDE, M. MORROW,
1ST 1975. Bidding starts at $35.

I already have a copy, so I'm not going to bid against you.

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory



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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ebay Alert
Date: 14 Apr 2000 12:16:18 -0600

There are also two copies on Alibris: both hardback, one for $73.00 and one
for 32.00.
-----Original Message-----


Ho the List,

For those of you out there that use Ebay to find some good items, here's one
I found. A while back folks were asking about Mable Morrow's book, "Indian
Rawhide". It's available as auction #307211869 INDIAN RAWHIDE, M. MORROW,
1ST 1975. Bidding starts at $35.

I already have a copy, so I'm not going to bid against you.

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory



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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Grinding coffee
Date: 14 Apr 2000 17:16:26 -0500


Keep your antique grinder handy, Steve.  I have one, too.  If you're at a
trading post you would have used one.  There are a few depictions in
drawings at trading posts as well as in inventories.

However, I wouldn't recommend them in camp, though, unless you're
interpreting a big historic rendezvous where grinders may have been hauled
in by fur trade company reps.  Otherwise, the leather bag works real good
and saves weight.  I use a cloth bag and break the beans very gently (to
extend the life of the bag), then leave the grounds in the bag and put the
whole thing in the water.  This keeps grounds in the pot and out of my cup,
and makes it easy to reuse them (for all us lazy sob's).

HBC

><<<<Hardtack Wrote:>I believe they put it in a sack, or piece of something to
>
>keep it>>>
>Haaaaaa!   You boys are good....  according to Hanson's "The Buckskinner's
>Cook Book" they put the roasted beans in a leather bag and pounded till the
>beans were crushed.... Looks like I'll put my antique coffee grinder back on
>the shelf....
>
>Ymos,
>
>Steve



**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "Be it beaver or marmot- hat's where the game"
Date: 14 Apr 2000 16:35:16 -0700

Hist_list and Brothers of the AMM,

Just a few weeks ago the lists we where talking beaver, plews, pelts and matters of such if one recalls !!!

There's a new article by James A. Hanson, "The Myth of the Silk Hat and the End of the Rendezvous". Jim has learned his craft well following in the footsteps of his famous father, not only a skilled researcher but an outstanding writer.

To read this article friends you better be a member of the Museum of the Fur Trade ! Well it's about time to sign up and get this issue of their "Quarterly" journal, talk is cheap. Like the name implies "Quarterly" is the number of issues you'll receive for the grand sum of $10.00 American payable to:

The Museum Of The Fur Trade
6321 highway 20
Chadron, NE 69337
1-308-432-3843
www.furtrade.org
[e-mail]

They usually have back issues so don't forget to ask about them also, personally I've got all of them from Charley years ago and have been a member for as long as  one can remember.

So if you want to "talk the talk", [FUR TRADE] join up and tell the story right, then maybe you'll have a better understanding of "walking the walk".

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Be it beaver or marmot- hat's where the game"
Date: 14 Apr 2000 17:42:22 -0700

Buck,
You're right on......this was an excellent "Quarterly".  Seems the articles
get more and more comprehensive as time goes on.  I keep wondering, "where
does all this knowledge come from"?  It's like some Troll rolls back a rock
in the high lonesome and another bit of historical fact is made known.  I
swear, it's all out there.  It just take the a fine researcher with time and
experience to discover its whereabouts.
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 4:35 PM


> Hist_list and Brothers of the AMM,
>
> Just a few weeks ago the lists we where talking beaver, plews, pelts and
matters of such if one recalls !!!
>
> There's a new article by James A. Hanson, "The Myth of the Silk Hat and
the End of the Rendezvous". Jim has learned his craft well following in the
footsteps of his famous father, not only a skilled researcher but an
outstanding writer.
>
> To read this article friends you better be a member of the Museum of the
Fur Trade ! Well it's about time to sign up and get this issue of their
"Quarterly" journal, talk is cheap. Like the name implies "Quarterly" is the
number of issues you'll receive for the grand sum of $10.00 American payable
to:
>
> The Museum Of The Fur Trade
> 6321 highway 20
> Chadron, NE 69337
> 1-308-432-3843
> www.furtrade.org
> [e-mail]
>
> They usually have back issues so don't forget to ask about them also,
personally I've got all of them from Charley years ago and have been a
member for as long as  one can remember.
>
> So if you want to "talk the talk", [FUR TRADE] join up and tell the story
right, then maybe you'll have a better understanding of "walking the walk".
>
> Later
> Buck Conner
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
>                   Aux Aliments de Pays!
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 14 Apr 2000 09:18:18 -0600

Buck,

do you live near Hastings, NE?
Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Be it beaver or marmot- hat's where the game"
Date: 14 Apr 2000 20:27:00 -0600

Not only does this article "talk" about the price of plews (depending on
whether they were taken in the southwest, northwest, or Rockies they ran
from 1.00 to as much as 8.00 per pound) but it also has a lot of data
refuting the idea that silk hats caused the end of the fur trade/rendezvous
period. Great article - great publication!
-----Original Message-----


>Hist_list and Brothers of the AMM,
>
>Just a few weeks ago the lists we where talking beaver, plews, pelts and
matters of such if one recalls !!!
>
>There's a new article by James A. Hanson, "The Myth of the Silk Hat and the
End of the Rendezvous". Jim has learned his craft well following in the
footsteps of his famous father, not only a skilled researcher but an
outstanding writer.
>
>To read this article friends you better be a member of the Museum of the
Fur Trade ! Well it's about time to sign up and get this issue of their
"Quarterly" journal, talk is cheap. Like the name implies "Quarterly" is the
number of issues you'll receive for the grand sum of $10.00 American payable
to:
>
>The Museum Of The Fur Trade
>6321 highway 20
>Chadron, NE 69337
>1-308-432-3843
>www.furtrade.org
>[e-mail]
>
>They usually have back issues so don't forget to ask about them also,
personally I've got all of them from Charley years ago and have been a
member for as long as  one can remember.
>
>So if you want to "talk the talk", [FUR TRADE] join up and tell the story
right, then maybe you'll have a better understanding of "walking the walk".
>
>Later
>Buck Conner
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
>                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Be it beaver or marmot- hat's where the game"
Date: 14 Apr 2000 23:17:58 -0400

buck---you got it right---walk the walk ---talk the talk but charley knew
his perios stuff---

nuff said---guys sign up and you get yoy moneys worth and then some---

hawk
________________________________________________________________
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Grinding coffee
Date: 15 Apr 2000 02:54:32 EDT


In a message dated 4/14/00 3:19:41 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I use a cloth bag and break the beans very gently (to
extend the life of the bag), then leave the grounds in the bag and put the
whole thing in the water.  This keeps grounds in the pot and out of my cup,
and makes it easy to reuse them (for all us lazy sob's). >>

Thanks Henry..... and thats a great idea about using the cloth bag and leavin
the grounds in there. The worst case of heart burn I ever had was choking
down a hand full of grinds in a cup..... that and some rotgut whiskey....
small price to pay for the whiskey though.....<G>

Ymos,
Steve

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Be it beaver or marmot- hats where the game]
Date: 15 Apr 2000 10:37:01 EDT

Thanks Buck & Bill,

This is a great resource; Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, if you aren'=
t
getting them - your missing out on some great material, may want to consi=
der
asking about back issues. A year ago I bought ever back issue available, =
can't
remember the price - other than very fair, only missing a dozen issues, t=
hose
where the early ones and copied them while on a hunting vacation at Buck'=
s.

"Concho" Smith =

[e-mail] (Bill Cunningham) wrote:
Not only does this article "talk" about the price of plews (depending on
whether they were taken in the southwest, northwest, or Rockies they ran
from 1.00 to as much as 8.00 per pound) but it also has a lot of data
refuting the idea that silk hats caused the end of the fur trade/rendezvo=
us
period. Great article - great publication!

-----Original Message-----
>To read this article friends you better be a member of the Museum of the=

Fur Trade ! Well it's about time to sign up and get this issue of their
"Quarterly" journal, talk is cheap. Like the name implies "Quarterly" is =
the
number of issues you'll receive for the grand sum of $10.00 American paya=
ble
to:
>
>The Museum Of The Fur Trade
>6321 highway 20
>Chadron, NE 69337
>1-308-432-3843
>www.furtrade.org
>[e-mail]
>
>They usually have back issues so don't forget to ask about them also,
personally I've got all of them from Charley years ago and have been a
member for as long as  one can remember.
>
>So if you want to "talk the talk", [FUR TRADE] join up and tell the stor=
y
right, then maybe you'll have a better understanding of "walking the walk=
".
>
>Later
>Buck Conner


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston]
Date: 15 Apr 2000 10:45:14 EDT

Guys,
Like you have mentioned most of the movies whether on Tv, or at the local=

show, you'll find parts that are more colorfull than the correct story fo=
und
in documentated sources. Hell, if it was correct in every detail, it woul=
d be
pretty boring and boring doesn't sell tickets, tapes, etc.

Buck mentioned "Black Robe", very good movie, well done and it was a flop=

because much of it was pretty slow (boring), got poor ratings and didn't =
last
long in at the local movies.

"Concho" Smith
On Thu, 13 April 2000, Randal J Bublitz wrote:
> It was a fictional story, which borrowed (loosely) on some real charact=
ers
and situations.  Bill Tylers run from the blackfeet =3D Colter's run.  Fr=
app
(Fraeb) was a real character, but he spoke english poorly (as he was a
german). Nat Wyeth was a real character, and .........
> times though...I love it..it is fun...  =

hardtack
> =

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Buck Conner <[e-mail]> wrote:
I was very hard with my comments and remarks about inacturate things foun=
d
when viewing a period show until getting involved in a half dozen such ev=
ents,
and now can understand just a few of the problems; money, actors, back gr=
ound
actors, unions, feeding, props, etc.- overall they are doing better and s=
eem
to be going in the right direction, we hope.
Later
Buck Conner



____________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston]
Date: 15 Apr 2000 10:56:55 EDT

Joe Brandl <[e-mail]> wrote:
Buck,

do you live near Hastings, NE?
Joe
Joe,
I'll answer for Buck, talked to him last night - was leaving for the west=
ern
slope about 8pm Friday night to look at some property today. Was starting=
 to
get snow flurries and possible heavy snow according to our weatherman, bu=
t he
was going anyway. He lives at the edge of the foothills, called Green Mou=
ntain
- overlooking metro Denver. Not city living per say, as I saw the biggest=
 mule
deer I've ever seen in Colorado about a 1/2 mile from his house in a park=

(playground). When gets back in on Monday he'll answer you I'm sure.

"Concho" Smith.

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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston]
Date: 15 Apr 2000 06:07:11 -0600

And the movie, Black Robe was depressing. All dark tones, looks black and white (no color).
Tragic story. Great canoe scenes, good in accuracy- but not a story to see
over and over.
                                            mike.


Concho Smith wrote:

> Guys,
> Like you have mentioned most of the movies whether on Tv, or at the local
> show, you'll find parts that are more colorfull than the correct story found
> in documentated sources. Hell, if it was correct in every detail, it would be
> pretty boring and boring doesn't sell tickets, tapes, etc.
>
> Buck mentioned "Black Robe", very good movie, well done and it was a flop
> because much of it was pretty slow (boring), got poor ratings and didn't last
> long in at the local movies.
>
> "Concho" Smith
> -----------------------------------------
> On Thu, 13 April 2000, Randal J Bublitz wrote:
> > It was a fictional story, which borrowed (loosely) on some real characters
> and situations.  Bill Tylers run from the blackfeet = Colter's run.  Frapp
> (Fraeb) was a real character, but he spoke english poorly (as he was a
> german). Nat Wyeth was a real character, and .........
> > times though...I love it..it is fun...
> hardtack
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Buck Conner <[e-mail]> wrote:
> I was very hard with my comments and remarks about inacturate things found
> when viewing a period show until getting involved in a half dozen such events,
> and now can understand just a few of the problems; money, actors, back ground
> actors, unions, feeding, props, etc.- overall they are doing better and seem
> to be going in the right direction, we hope.
> Later
> Buck Conner
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.
>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston]
Date: 15 Apr 2000 12:06:18 -0400

> but not a story to see over and over..
>
Mike,
 I have to disagree... It gets watched here more than any other. It really
sets the mood before an event. That the "frontier" wasn't a place to leave
your guard down or take anything for granted.. Even for a second.. And
besides, I just love to watch the Priest get his "fingernails trimmed" with
a sharpened clamshell...<G>
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: movie
Date: 15 Apr 2000 11:32:25 -0500

re: the movie "Mountain Men". I have a copy and enjoy watching now and then.
But keep in mind, it is Hollywood not history.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 16:53:23 EDT

<html>
<body>
Ho the list,

Usually I check my e-mail and there's always 10-15 hist_list questions an=
d answers. Everyone out on the ground ????? If that's the case good show.=


"Concho" Smith
<br>
<BR>
<HR noshade width=3D"90%">
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at <a href=3D"=
http://webmail.netscape.com" target=3D"top">http://webmail.netscape.com</=
a>.
</body>
</html>

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 16:58:49 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey Concho.. Just got back from the range.. List is dead though...
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BFA7C5.0963E200
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hey Concho.. Just got back from the =
range.. List is=20
dead though...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>          DOUBLE EDGE =

FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements<BR>   =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
"Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0px"> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 14:19:59 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dennis/Concho,

I'd be shooting at turkeys this weekend but I have been having too much =
fun this spring with 2 "snow shoe's" and 2 "canoe camps" and my back =
finally gave out. So I'm not on the ground this weekend, I'm on my back! =
Actually it is feeling pretty good and I may have to go do some yard =
work here shortly. <G> Glad everyone is having fun and not tied to this =
machine. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dennis/Concho,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd be shooting at turkeys this weekend =
but I have=20
been having too much fun this spring with 2 "snow shoe's" and 2 "canoe =
camps"=20
and my back finally gave out. So I'm not on the ground this weekend, I'm =
on my=20
back! Actually it is feeling pretty good and I may have to go do some =
yard work=20
here shortly. <G> Glad everyone is having fun and not tied to this =

machine. I remain......</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain Men-Heston
Date: 16 Apr 2000 14:53:57 -0700 (PDT)

Crazy, Somewere I have a photo of you presenting the
statue to Heston-Contact me off line and I will send
it to you,with pleasure.  Buck, I enjoyed that
Father's Day breakfast of raw egg too.  Dog, Gabe's
Hole Brigade

__________________________________________________
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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 17:59:24 -0400

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Capt...
 Have the Party build you a "travois",  drag you in to the woods, prop =
ya up and have at it!!. A course, I would hold a prized item from each =
Brother "hostage" so's they would remember to go out and drag ye =
back...<G>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"


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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Have the Party build you a =
"travois",  drag=20
you in to the woods, prop ya up and have at it!!. A course, I would hold =
a=20
prized item from each Brother "hostage" so's they would remember to go =
out and=20
drag ye back...<G></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>          DOUBLE EDGE =

FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements<BR>   =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
"Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 16:02:42 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Dennis,

Why do you think I like those canoe camps? Don't have to carry anything =
in and don't have to try to get the party to carry me. Got another one =
coming up the 26th down in Oregon but it isn't AMM, just fun. Well, the =
back is better, the yard work is done (sorta), the stepson came over and =
mowed the lawn and the wifemate wants to do some more outside and then =
take me to dinner. Everything is right with the world. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dennis,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Why do you think I like those canoe =
camps? Don't=20
have to carry anything in and don't have to try to get the party to =
carry me.=20
Got another one coming up the 26th down in Oregon but it isn't AMM, just =
fun.=20
Well, the back is better, the yard work is done (sorta), the stepson =
came over=20
and mowed the lawn and the wifemate wants to do some more outside and =
then take=20
me to dinner. Everything is right with the world. I =
remain......</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 19:35:27 -0400

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Capt..
 Yep, I like canoe trips for the same reason... If I could only keep =
away from strainers..<G> Oh well, the Brothers said a bath damn sure =
didn't hurt me none...
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"


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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Yep, I like canoe trips for the =
same=20
reason... If I could only keep away from strainers..<G> Oh well, =
the=20
Brothers said a bath damn sure didn't hurt me none...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>          DOUBLE EDGE =

FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements<BR>   =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
"Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 19:12:19 -0700

Yeah Dennis'
  A bath is certainly in order, every once in a while, for sure.  <GG>
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


Capt..
Yep, I like canoe trips for the same reason... If I could only keep away
from strainers..<G> Oh well, the Brothers said a bath damn sure didn't hurt
me none...
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"




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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 18:34:03 -0600

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larry pendleton wrote:

> Yeah Dennis'
>   A bath is certainly in order, every once in a while, for sure.  <GG>
> Pendleton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Sunday, April 16, 2000 4:35 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
>
> Capt..
> Yep, I like canoe trips for the same reason... If I could only keep away
> from strainers..<G> Oh well, the Brothers said a bath damn sure didn't hurt
> me none...
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Hey Larry, maybe they both could use a bath, seeing how they've been near the
fire.

Buck


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adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain Men-Heston
Date: 16 Apr 2000 18:34:59 -0600

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Ronald Schrotter wrote:

> Crazy, Somewere I have a photo of you presenting the
> statue to Heston-Contact me off line and I will send
> it to you,with pleasure.  Buck, I enjoyed that
> Father's Day breakfast of raw egg too.  Dog, Gabe's
> Hole Brigade
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
> http://invites.yahoo.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Dog we did have a time, didn't we.

Buck


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title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
fn:Buck Conner
end:vcard

--------------B6B62C0D0B266E98C03B5B3C--


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 18:38:32 -0600

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Roger Lahti wrote:

> Dennis/Concho, I'd be shooting at turkeys this weekend but
> I have been having too much fun this spring with 2 "snow
> shoe's" and 2 "canoe camps" and my back finally gave out.
> So I'm not on the ground this weekend, I'm on my back!
> Actually it is feeling pretty good and I may have to go do
> some yard work here shortly. <G> Glad everyone is having
> fun and not tied to this machine. I remain...... YMOSCapt.
> Lahti'

That's for me anymore with a pin in the lower back and a
plastic heel cap, horse or canoe. We used a bateau last
couple of years for some outings, that flat bottom and extra
weight is a workout when compared to a canoe.

Buck

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Roger Lahti wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Dennis/Concho,</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I'd
be shooting at turkeys this weekend but I have been having too much fun
this spring with 2 "snow shoe's" and 2 "canoe camps" and my back finally
gave out. So I'm not on the ground this weekend, I'm on my back! Actually
it is feeling pretty good and I may have to go do some yard work here shortly.
<G> Glad everyone is having fun and not tied to this machine. I remain......</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>YMOS</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Capt.
Lahti'</font></font></blockquote>

<p><br>That's for me anymore with a pin in the lower back and a plastic
heel cap, horse or canoe. We used a bateau last couple of years for some
outings, that flat bottom and extra weight is a workout when compared to
a canoe.
<p>Buck
</body>
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title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
fn:Buck Conner
end:vcard

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 18:54:07 -0700

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Dennis,

It could be said that I avoid baths with a passion born of excess. <G> =
Been a long time since I did the "strainer" trick and "knock on wood",  =
well let's just say I am superstitious enough not to say it won't ever =
happen but this old salt will move heaven and earth to prevent it. I =
remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti


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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dennis,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It could be said that I avoid baths =
with a passion=20
born of excess. <G> Been a long time since I did the "strainer" =
trick and=20
"knock on wood",  well let's just say I am superstitious enough not =
to say=20
it won't ever happen but this old salt will move heaven and earth to =
prevent it.=20
I remain....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. Lahti</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 22:05:40 -0400

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I did it twice last Summer, same trip, different days.... My canoe =
partner didn't show up, and I couldn't move my 17 footer as fast as I =
wanted and "Whoosh" bath time!<G> Spotted Snake thought it was right =
nice of me to show him that the path I followed wasn't the best =
one....He seemed to always follow me.. I stayed dry, he was behind me, I =
got wet he was going the other way.. Smart man, that...
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"


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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I did it twice last Summer, same trip, =
different=20
days.... My canoe partner didn't show up, and I couldn't move my 17 =
footer as=20
fast as I wanted and "Whoosh" bath time!<G> Spotted Snake thought =
it was=20
right nice of me to show him that the path I followed wasn't the best =
one....He=20
seemed to always follow me.. I stayed dry, he was behind me, I got wet =
he was=20
going the other way.. Smart man, that...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>          DOUBLE EDGE =

FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements<BR>   =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
"Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 21:09:09 -0700 (PDT)

On Sun, 16 Apr 2000, Roger Lahti wrote:
> I'd be shooting at turkeys this weekend but I have been having too much
> fun this spring with 2 "snow shoe's" and 2 "canoe camps" and my back
> finally gave out. So I'm not on the ground this weekend, I'm on my
> back! Actually it is feeling pretty good and I may have to go do some
> yard work here shortly.

Capt.  Sorry to hear about your back, but happy to hear you're back up and
at 'em.

Been a dandy opening weekend for Turkey here in Idaho, my 14 yr old boy
put one in the freezer, with a little bit of help on the calling from old
Dad <G>, and now I have quills to attempt to make writing
utinsels with.

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list
Date: 16 Apr 2000 21:32:52 -0700

Lee,

Give my congratulations to young master Newbill. And don't you swell up too
much being proud. I may take a trip up to the Blues this week or perhaps
next weekend if Crawdad had a good but unsuccessful weekend. I haven't heard
a report yet. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Tim Nevins" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: L n R Locks
Date: 17 Apr 2000 14:51:34 PDT

I wanted to thank everyone for there help with my lock problems on my
Traditions. I solved it once and for all!!!!
I received my new RPL Lock from LnR the other day had it in within half an
hour and it is great. Highly recommended if anyone is thinking of replacing
their locks they pop right in and spark like there's no tomorrow.

Thanks Again
Tim Nevins
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last of the Mountain men...Heston
Date: 18 Apr 2000 00:22:20 EDT

Hello in the camp
 Tell ya the truth Buck the only thing I can tell you that was good about my
out fit I had back then is that it wore out and was replaced with a better
one. I would think we all have improved by more and better reacher since that
movie was made.'' At least I know I have." Back then I looked like one of
Remingtons' mountain men in dirty chrome tan buckskin, big coyote hat and all.
  Dog it will be nice to have proof that story isn't a big windy. Looking
forward to getting the picture. I be dammed if I didn't have one shinin time
on that set and the stories to be told.
 Would have got back to you all sooner but had me a shoot out to my place
this week end we call it the IRS sucks shoot.
                                                      See ya on the trail
                                                        Crazy Cyot

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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 18 Apr 2000 15:25:46 -0600

Have a question, what kind of ropes were used in the fur trade? This is
one of few things which I had never questioned and always used a mixture

of anything which I could find. Any help?
                                                mike.


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain men...Heston - Thank you Hist_list members
Date: 18 Apr 2000 20:32:55 -0600

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[e-mail] wrote:

> Hello in the camp
>  Tell ya the truth Buck the only thing I can tell you that was good about my out
> fit I had back then is that it wore out and was replaced with a better one. I
> would think we all have improved by more and better reacher since that movie was
> made.'' At least I know I have." Back then I looked like one of Remingtons'
> mountain men in dirty chrome tan buckskin, big coyote hat and all.
>   Dog it will be nice to have proof that story isn't a big windy. Looking
> forward to getting the picture. I be dammed if I didn't have one shinin time on
> that set and the stories to be told.
>  Would have got back to you all sooner but had me a shoot out to my place this
> week end we call it the IRS sucks shoot.
>                                                       See ya on the trail
>                                                         Crazy Cyot

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Crazy,
Hopefully we have all improved in all areas from clothing to more in depth
research, like you - the few I run with have. Of course I saw a guy for the first
time in 10-12 years a few weeks ago and he still looked and dressed the same with
the chrome tanned skins and fringe as long as that Remington mountainman. We
invited him to a woodswalk, but got turned down (campman), he  would have been
hog-tied in the first 75-100 yards with his own fringe.

The one area to get buckskinners, reenacters, or whatever they call themselves to
take a hard look at is edibles. Not trying to plug the business, but seriously we
have met some neat folks with great outfits, equipage and camps, but when you look
at what they eat at night - they're missing out on the total experience.

I think on this list we have talked more about foods, cultivated and foraged, more
in the last year than I've seen in the last 30 in various camps - big and small.

List members that is so encouraging to see that many of you have paid attention to
what many of us have written, talked and demo'd about all these years, thank all
of you. Those that have leaned in this direction are experiencing more what their
forefathers dealt with on a daily basics.

Sorry to get off on foods, etc. - Crazy those times will be remembered until we go
under, then we can sit on the other side around an evening fire and listen to our
old friends - Charley Hanson, the Sublette's, the Bent's and so on, tell about
their adventures.

Good Night Friends.


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n:Conner;Barry
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
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version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
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end:vcard

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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 18 Apr 2000 20:58:37 -0600

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Mike Moore wrote:

> Have a question, what kind of ropes were used in the fur trade? This is
> one of few things which I had never questioned and always used a mixture
> of anything which I could find. Any help?
>                                                 mike.

Mike,
Have seen references to hemp, manilla, buffalo-elk and moose hide (deer is
like antelope-pretty thin), dog vain, several cordage's made from natural
material. Jefferson and Thomas Paine had something about rope in one of the
garden books Mike, I'll look for it and loan it to you.

At some of the eastern camps have seen guts making rope from twine, haven't
a clue if that's correct for their period or not.

Chuck can't remember his last name - Striker maybe, use to write for Baird
years ago in Buckskin Report, did an article on fur trade rope, Hanson
though he did pretty good, I'll look for that too, Oh Mike I have a piece of
Chuck's buffalo hide rope if you would like to see it.

This is short, those that do and don't remember Chuck, he was a tall thin
drink of water, hair to his waist and beard damn near as long. Everyone
always talked about Jeff and his horseback trips, well Chuck from sea to
shining sea, then Baird published the story.

I was living in northern Colorado, working in front of my store "Buckhorn
Rendezvous" (cooking buffalo steaks and rendering fat from a resent kill)
and a customer pulls in and says "wait till you see what's coming down the
road". This is a narrow tarred road, cars have to pull into the other lane
to get around this guy on horseback with two pack animals - looked like we
just went back a 150 years.

He rides in, asks to permission to set down, we meet Chuck Striker (think
that's the name), we have horse across the street in a big field, I tell him
to unload at the store and pasture his animals, which he does. He comes back
we offer him some homemade wine and buffalo steaks, he falls to his knees
and kisses my boots - caught me off guard, jumped back and ask if he we
touched?? Turns out he rode in from Tao's and was living on jerky and dried
fruit, he thought he had died and when somewhere, but the food was better.

So visiting with him for several days he started making rope out of an old
summer buffalo hide, cut it into 6-8 in sample and gave history talks to pay
for our kindness, brother what an attraction.
That's where the piece came from that I have, anyone know or remember this
gentleman, originally from CA ?



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org:~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~;* Chief factor,* reenactor,* history buff,* supplier.
version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
fn:Buck Conner
end:vcard

--------------3D38339C45A2682D3A2190BB--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 18 Apr 2000 22:32:43 -0500

Washtahay-
At 08:58 PM 4/18/00 -0600, you wrote:
>So visiting with him for several days he started making rope out of an old
>summer buffalo hide, cut it into 6-8 in sample and gave history talks to pay
>for our kindness, brother what an attraction.
>That's where the piece came from that I have, anyone know or remember this
>gentleman, originally from CA ?
    sounds like Chuck Streeper.  Maybe.
LongWalker c. du B.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Parched Corn
Date: 19 Apr 2000 00:06:36 -0400

Ok... I give up.  Tried making parched corn and all I got was burned
nuggets...  Did as was suggested.  Did not want to wait for ear corn to dry,
so I used frozen and put it in the dehydrator. After that, skillet with just
a bit of salt, and derned if I didn't burn it... GRRRRRRRRRRRR.........   My
question is (finally)... Where the hell can I just buy some parched cord???

*grins*

Thanks....

Ad Miller


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn
Date: 19 Apr 2000 01:49:02 EDT

Ad
  Jill and I have made parched corn the same way you did a time or two when
in a pitch for some. It worked out for us, you have to keep the kernels of
corn moving to keep them from scorching almost like pop corn but not that
much movement. keep turning them, those small kernels from frozen corn scorch
easily as you found out. We still had a few black spots on ours but they ate
well and when boiled up with rice were soft and tender. After parching the
corn seems to boil up faster.
                                              See ya on the trail
                                               Crazy Cyot

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn
Date: 19 Apr 2000 06:47:39 -0400

Ad,
 Buck Conner of Clark & Son's has some good parched Blue Corn.... It was a
little high in salt for my taste, but after a rinsin and dryin', it was
perfect.. I have been grinding it into "rockahominy" Damned gud stuuf,
that...
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 19 Apr 2000 05:45:32 -0600

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[e-mail] wrote:

> Washtahay-
> At 08:58 PM 4/18/00 -0600, you wrote:
> >So visiting with him for several days he started making rope out of an old
> >summer buffalo hide, cut it into 6-8 in sample and gave history talks to pay
> >for our kindness, brother what an attraction.
> >That's where the piece came from that I have, anyone know or remember this
> >gentleman, originally from CA ?
>         sounds like Chuck Streeper.  Maybe.
> LongWalker c. du B.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Thank you - that's him, do you know if he's still involved?


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org:~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~;* Chief factor,* reenactor,* history buff,* supplier.
version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
fn:Buck Conner
end:vcard

--------------84179F2F9F5EB3D6000E6F13--


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn
Date: 19 Apr 2000 05:48:14 -0600

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Addison Miller wrote:

> Ok... I give up.  Tried making parched corn and all I got was burned
> nuggets...  Did as was suggested.  Did not want to wait for ear corn to dry,
> so I used frozen and put it in the dehydrator. After that, skillet with just
> a bit of salt, and derned if I didn't burn it... GRRRRRRRRRRRR.........   My
> question is (finally)... Where the hell can I just buy some parched cord???
>
> *grins*
>
> Thanks....
>
> Ad Miller
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

We handle "blue parched corn", Clark & Sons Mercantile at:
http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/

later,
Buck


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version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
fn:Buck Conner
end:vcard

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From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain men...Heston - Thank you Hist_list members
Date: 19 Apr 2000 08:22:48 -0500

> > [e-mail] wrote:

> > Of course I saw a guy for the first time in 10-12 years a few weeks ago and he still looked and  >dressed the same with the
> chrome tanned skins and fringe as long as that Remington >mountainman. We invited him to a woodswalk, but got turned down
> (campman), he  would have >been hog-tied in the first 75-100 yards with his own fringe.

You are criticising the length of the fringe, not the fringe, right?  Alfred Jacob Miller drew plenty of fringe.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner


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From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 19 Apr 2000 09:01:12 -0600

I know Chuck, will write about him later today if time permits
Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Museum of the Fur Trade
Date: 19 Apr 2000 10:04:01 -0500


>There's a new article by James A. Hanson, "The Myth of the Silk Hat and
>the End >of the Rendezvous". Jim has learned his craft well following in
>the footsteps of >his famous father, not only a skilled researcher but an
>outstanding writer.

Jim's PhD in History doesn't hurt either.  :-)

>To read this article friends you better be a member of the Museum of the
>Fur >Trade ! Well it's about time to sign up and get this issue of their
>"Quarterly"
>journal, talk is cheap. Like the name implies "Quarterly" is the number of
>>issues you'll receive for the grand sum of $10.00

For an additional 8 bucks get the 40 page history of the Museum, full of
great color pix of pieces in the collection and a great narrative.  Every
member ought to have one.  Allow some time, because  Gail Potter the MFT
Director is the only paid staff and, although she has volunteers, she has
her hands pretty full.  It's worth the wait.

Order your membership now and get the invitation to this years annual
Chadron Fur Trade Days rondy. I just spoke to Gail and she says they're
expecting a pretty large camp.

Cheers,
HBC

**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
[e-mail]
806/742-2442  FAX [phone]
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***  Living History . . . Because It's There  ***



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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: question??  new topic
Date: 19 Apr 2000 11:43:40 -0400

Greetings knowledgeable list members, esteemed friends, ect, ect.

     I got a question to ask. Last nite at work I was talking to an outside
contractor about our hobby "life style". He was telling me he has several
hundred acres in southeast ohio. He was walking with a timber buyer. There
are "numerous caves and over hangs" on the property, they were looking at
some of them. Inside of several the timberbuyer pointed out some marks on
the rocks and told the owner that these marks were used by the Indians in a
manner that we use a road map today. He called them "navigational aids".
Their were very faint traces of coloring left.

Now the question.   Has anyone ever heard of this or was hot air being blown
up someone`s butt?

The land owner said the timber buyer talked quite a bit about this but the
conversation was above his understanding on this subject.

John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question??  new topic
Date: 19 Apr 2000 11:53:32 -0400

Gee... sounds like a great place for a Ronny!!!!!

Ad Miller

He was telling me he has several
> hundred acres in southeast ohio. He was walking with a timber buyer. There
> are "numerous caves and over hangs" on the property, they were looking at
> some of them.


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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rope
Date: 19 Apr 2000 01:23:47 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Mr Conner wrote:

Chuck can't remember his last name - Striker maybe, use to write for =
Baird
years ago in Buckskin Report, did an article on fur trade rope, Hanson
though he did pretty good, I'll look for that too,=20

If I could get a copy of that also I would be obliged.  I have wondered =
if the manilla stuff they sell now days was acceptable for horse packing =
and long ties.  Kinda hate to put a hard to make or expensive horse hair =
or rawhide rope to such rough useage.

YMOS
WY
=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mr Conner wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Chuck can't remember his last name - =
Striker maybe,=20
use to write for Baird<BR>years ago in Buckskin Report, did an article =
on fur=20
trade rope, Hanson<BR>though he did pretty good, I'll look for that too, =

</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If I could get a copy of that also I =
would be=20
obliged.  I have wondered if the manilla stuff they sell now days =
was=20
acceptable for horse packing and long ties.  Kinda hate to put =
a hard=20
to make or expensive horse hair or rawhide rope to such rough=20
useage.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 19 Apr 2000 15:16:33 -0500

--=====================_50168627==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Would this be the guy that rode into Fort Bridger back in '81 or '82?

If so he had a very well thought out system of saddles (he'd made) and=20
panniers (packs).  every horse had its saddle.  He could pack or ride any=20
horse and saddle with the same equipment or switch packs quickly along the=
=20
trail.  Clever solutions not high tech.

Interesting and knowledgeable fellow that I met.

John...


At 10:32 PM 4/18/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Washtahay-
>At 08:58 PM 4/18/00 -0600, you wrote:
> >So visiting with him for several days he started making rope out of an=
 old
> >summer buffalo hide, cut it into 6-8 in sample and gave history talks to=
 pay
> >for our kindness, brother what an attraction.
> >That's where the piece came from that I have, anyone know or remember=
 this
> >gentleman, originally from CA ?
>         sounds like Chuck Streeper.  Maybe.
>LongWalker c. du B.

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>

--=====================_50168627==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<font size=3D3>Would this be the guy that rode into Fort Bridger back in
'81 or '82?<br>
<br>
If so he had a very well thought out system of saddles (he'd made) and
panniers (packs).  every horse had its saddle.  He could pack
or ride any horse and saddle with the same equipment or switch packs
quickly along the trail.  Clever solutions not high tech.<br>
<br>
Interesting and knowledgeable fellow that I met.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
At 10:32 PM 4/18/00 -0500, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite cite>Washtahay-<br>
At 08:58 PM 4/18/00 -0600, you wrote:<br>
>So visiting with him for several days he started making rope out of
an old<br>
>summer buffalo hide, cut it into 6-8 in sample and gave history talks
to pay<br>
>for our kindness, brother what an attraction.<br>
>That's where the piece came from that I have, anyone know or remember
this<br>
>gentleman, originally from CA ?<br>
<x-tab>        </x-tab>sounds
like Chuck Streeper.  Maybe.<br>
LongWalker c. du B.</font></blockquote><br>
<div>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0</div>
<br>
<div>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</div>
<div>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</div>
<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<</div>
<br>
<div><<a href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/"=
 EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</a>></div>
<br>
<div>mail to: <[e-mail]> </div>
</html>

--=====================_50168627==_.ALT--


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 19 Apr 2000 16:48:13 -0600

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3039007693_58693_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

John,
I think this is the guy who rode into the Western NMLRA nationals up at
Hickerson Park outside of Manilla Ut. I think it was 1982, had a Beautiful
Horse about 17 hands tall. He is the one that rode over to your camp in the
bend of the road and let me ride it. Nice guy!
YMOS
Ole
----------


Would this be the guy that rode into Fort Bridger back in '81 or '82?

If so he had a very well thought out system of saddles (he'd made) and
panniers (packs).  every horse had its saddle.  He could pack or ride any
horse and saddle with the same equipment or switch packs quickly along the
trail.  Clever solutions not high tech.

Interesting and knowledgeable fellow that I met.

John...


At 10:32 PM 4/18/00 -0500, you wrote:
Washtahay-
At 08:58 PM 4/18/00 -0600, you wrote:
>So visiting with him for several days he started making rope out of an old
>summer buffalo hide, cut it into 6-8 in sample and gave history talks to p=
ay
>for our kindness, brother what an attraction.
>That's where the piece came from that I have, anyone know or remember this
>gentleman, originally from CA ?
        sounds like Chuck Streeper.  Maybe.
LongWalker c. du B.

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/ <http://www.kramerize.com/> >

mail to: <[e-mail]>


--MS_Mac_OE_3039007693_58693_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: ropes</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
John,<BR>
I think this is the guy who rode into the Western NMLRA nationals up at Hic=
kerson Park outside of Manilla Ut. I think it was 1982, had a Beautiful Hors=
e about 17 hands tall. He is the one that rode over to your camp in the bend=
 of the road and let me ride it. Nice guy!<BR>
YMOS<BR>
Ole<BR>
----------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Would this be the guy that rode into Fort Bridger back in '81 o=
r '82?<BR>
<BR>
If so he had a very well thought out system of saddles (he'd made) and pann=
iers (packs).  every horse had its saddle.  He could pack or ride =
any horse and saddle with the same equipment or switch packs quickly along t=
he trail.  Clever solutions not high tech.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting and knowledgeable fellow that I met.<BR>
<BR>
John...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 10:32 PM 4/18/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Washtahay-<BR>
At 08:58 PM 4/18/00 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>So visiting with him for several days he started making rope out of an =
old<BR>
>summer buffalo hide, cut it into 6-8 in sample and gave history talks t=
o pay<BR>
>for our kindness, brother what an attraction.<BR>
>That's where the piece came from that I have, anyone know or remember t=
his<BR>
>gentleman, originally from CA ?<BR>
        sounds like Chuck Streeper.=
  Maybe.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>LongWalker c. du B.<BR>
<BR>
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0<BR>
<BR>
Kramer's Best Antique Improver<BR>
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<<BR>
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<<BR>
<BR>
<<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://www.kramerize.com/</U></FONT> <<FONT=
 COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>http://www.kramerize.com/</U></FONT>> ><BR>
<BR>
mail to: <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>[e-mail]</U></FONT>> <=
BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3039007693_58693_MIME_Part--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 19 Apr 2000 19:42:11 -0400


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Is he the one with the dogs that traveled along with him?  He has a
cabin in Wyoming or MOntana and lives like a Mountain Man???

Holley

"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:

> John,
> I think this is the guy who rode into the Western NMLRA nationals up
> at Hickerson Park outside of Manilla Ut. I think it was 1982, had a
> Beautiful Horse about 17 hands tall. He is the one that rode over to
> your camp in the bend of the road and let me ride it. Nice guy!
> YMOS
> Ole
> ----------
> From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
> Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000, 2:16 PM
>
>
>
>      Would this be the guy that rode into Fort Bridger back in
>      '81 or '82?
>
>      If so he had a very well thought out system of saddles (he'd
>      made) and panniers (packs).  every horse had its saddle.  He
>      could pack or ride any horse and saddle with the same
>      equipment or switch packs quickly along the trail.  Clever
>      solutions not high tech.
>
>      Interesting and knowledgeable fellow that I met.
>
>      John...
>
>
>      At 10:32 PM 4/18/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
>           Washtahay-
>           At 08:58 PM 4/18/00 -0600, you wrote:
>           >So visiting with him for several days he started
>           making rope out of an old
>           >summer buffalo hide, cut it into 6-8 in sample
>           and gave history talks to pay
>           >for our kindness, brother what an attraction.
>           >That's where the piece came from that I have,
>           anyone know or remember this
>           >gentleman, originally from CA ?
>                   sounds like Chuck Streeper.  Maybe.
>
>      LongWalker c. du B.
>
>      John T. Kramer, maker of:
>
>      Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>      >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>              >>>As good as old!<<<
>
>      <http://www.kramerize.com/ <http://www.kramerize.com/> >
>
>      mail to: <[e-mail]>
>
>

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<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Is he the one with the dogs that traveled along with him?  He has
a cabin in Wyoming or MOntana and lives like a Mountain Man???
<p>Holley
<p>"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>John,
<br>I think this is the guy who rode into the Western NMLRA nationals up
at Hickerson Park outside of Manilla Ut. I think it was 1982, had a Beautiful
Horse about 17 hands tall. He is the one that rode over to your camp in
the bend of the road and let me ride it. Nice guy!
<br>YMOS
<br>Ole
<br>----------
<br>From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
<br>To: [e-mail]
<br>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
<br>Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000, 2:16 PM
<br>
<br>
<blockquote>Would this be the guy that rode into Fort Bridger back in '81
or '82?
<p>If so he had a very well thought out system of saddles (he'd made) and
panniers (packs).  every horse had its saddle.  He could pack
or ride any horse and saddle with the same equipment or switch packs quickly
along the trail.  Clever solutions not high tech.
<p>Interesting and knowledgeable fellow that I met.
<p>John...
<br>
<p>At 10:32 PM 4/18/00 -0500, you wrote:
<blockquote>Washtahay-
<br>At 08:58 PM 4/18/00 -0600, you wrote:
<br>>So visiting with him for several days he started making rope out of
an old
<br>>summer buffalo hide, cut it into 6-8 in sample and gave history talks
to pay
<br>>for our kindness, brother what an attraction.
<br>>That's where the piece came from that I have, anyone know or remember
this
<br>>gentleman, originally from CA ?
<br>        sounds like Chuck Streeper.
Maybe.</blockquote>
LongWalker c. du B.
<p>John T. Kramer, maker of:
<p>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
<br>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
<br>        >>>As good as old!<<<
<p><<u><font color="#0000FF"><A HREF="http://www.kramerize.com/">http://www.kramerize.com/</A></font></u> <<u><font color="#0000FF"><A HREF="http://www.kramerize.com/">http://www.kramerize.com/</A></font></u>>
>
<p>mail to: <<u><font color="#0000FF">[e-mail]</font></u>>
<br> </blockquote>
</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 19 Apr 2000 17:48:09 -0600

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John Kramer wrote:

> Would this be the guy that rode into Fort Bridger back in
> '81 or '82?
>
> If so he had a very well thought out system of saddles
> (he'd made) and panniers (packs).  every horse had its
> saddle.  He could pack or ride any horse and saddle with
> the same equipment or switch packs quickly along the
> trail.  Clever solutions not high tech.
>
> Interesting and knowledgeable fellow that I met.
>
> John...

That's him John, the date was 1982, he would ride each horse
approx. 4 hours then switch very quickly to the fresh
animal. He said when he rode the last horse for its period
of time, it was time to setup camp after a 12 hour day. Like
you say pretty slick.

Later
Buck

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
John Kramer wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font size=+0>Would this be the guy that rode into
Fort Bridger back in '81 or '82?</font>
<p><font size=+0>If so he had a very well thought out system of saddles
(he'd made) and panniers (packs).  every horse had its saddle.
He could pack or ride any horse and saddle with the same equipment or switch
packs quickly along the trail.  Clever solutions not high tech.</font>
<p><font size=+0>Interesting and knowledgeable fellow that I met.</font>
<p><font size=+0>John...</font></blockquote>
That's him John, the date was 1982, he would ride each horse approx. 4
hours then switch very quickly to the fresh animal. He said when he rode
the last horse for its period of time, it was time to setup camp after
a 12 hour day. Like you say pretty slick.
<p>Later
<br>Buck</html>

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n:Conner;Barry
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version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
fn:Buck Conner
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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain men...Heston - Thank you Hist_list members
Date: 19 Apr 2000 17:52:16 -0600

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Glenn Darilek wrote:

> > > [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > > Of course I saw a guy for the first time in 10-12 years a few weeks ago and he still looked and  >dressed the same with the
> > chrome tanned skins and fringe as long as that Remington >mountainman. We invited him to a woodswalk, but got turned down
> > (campman), he  would have >been hog-tied in the first 75-100 yards with his own fringe.
>
> You are criticising the length of the fringe, not the fringe, right?  Alfred Jacob Miller drew plenty of fringe.
>
> Glenn Darilek
> Iron Burner
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Iron Burner,
12-18 in long fringe won't work in buck brush or berry patches, the fringe is fine, the length was not workable.

later
Buck


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version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
fn:Buck Conner
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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Museum of the Fur Trade
Date: 19 Apr 2000 18:05:09 -0600

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> Order your membership now and get the invitation to this years annual Chadron
> Fur Trade Days rondy. I just spoke to Gail and she says they're expecting a
> pretty large camp.
>
> Cheers,
> HBC
>
> **********************************
> Henry B. Crawford

I understand it will not be on that river bottom, but on good ground - that
silt killed everyone and took lots of work after getting home to clean it out
of your gear. They do a good job with their rendezvous, put it on your list of
things to do.

later
Buck



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adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
fn:Buck Conner
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 19 Apr 2000 18:40:20 -0600

Mike,

I've done a bit of research on rope. I came to the conclusion that the
majority of rope used in the east and supplied in St. Louis was hemp.
Remember that hemp was a huge cash crop in those days for just that
purpose, the making of course cloth and rope. Flax ropes were also used,
but not to the extent of hemp.

The rope we know as Manila was so named because it came from the
Phillipines. It was made from "Manila Hemp" which is actually a plant
known as  Abaca. Abaca is related to the Banana. The leaves are long an
fiburous. How much it was imported is hard to discover. I would tend to
think it was not as common as domestic hemp rope.

Sisal is related to agave and was used in Central America and Mexico. It
doesn't appear to have been an important export until after it was
introduced to Africa in the late 1800's. Tanzania became a large
exporeter of sisal and still is.

You really can't beat a good hemp rope. My friends and i have had much
fun making it, Fortunatly it isn't hard to find hemp twine nowadays, and
it's easy to make a rope from it.

I believe that the mountaineers used animal hides to make rope from if
they didn't have access to rope from the settlements.

My 2 cents

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party Pilgrim

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Frog/shot cu
Date: 19 Apr 2000 23:57:28 EDT


In a message dated 4/16/00 1:53:13 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Are his shoes pre-1840? I'm sure his mocs would be fine.

It is not tough groun >>

Ho Capt,

I think his moc's are gonna be OK..... provided they just don't fall apart.
His hand sewin is even worse than mine, if you can believe that. We're taking
two canoe's in to the rondy,  but thinking we may have to air drop some stuff
in if we stay more than a couple days....<G>

<<<How did the paper cups work for you? As compared to the plastic cups ( that

leave plastic in your bore )<G>?

You know I couldn't see the difference between the two....kinda made a mod.
choke out of the cyl bore.... but more flyers than I liked, and some holes in
the pattern. I couldn't feel any melted plastic in the bore(had a card and
wad under the cup) and the plastic cup looked none the worse for the wear...
I'd sure like to have that fusil choked to mod.....but then I guess ya can't
shoot round balls then. The thing to do is just build a 12ga double barrel
flintlock, I've got all the stuff, but I'm just not that handy yet....

The wool pull over is done and you'll be impressed! I should be outta the
detox center in time for the Frog.....<G>

Ymos,
Steve

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: brass shims
Date: 19 Apr 2000 23:59:58 EDT

Thanks John Funk! I got the brass shims and just in the nick of time... Gonna
go terrorize the turkeys this weekend with a tight hammer.

Ymos,
Steve

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From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 19 Apr 2000 23:27:25 -0500

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Nope that was Len Brown & Lisa Dawes out of Nevada, MO.  I ran into them in
Grand Junction on the way to the AMM in southern Colorado that year and
gave them directions to Hickerson.  The came riding in across the swamp.

John...


At 04:48 PM 4/19/00 -0600, you wrote:
>John,
>I think this is the guy who rode into the Western NMLRA nationals up at
>Hickerson Park outside of Manilla Ut. I think it was 1982, had a Beautiful
>Horse about 17 hands tall. He is the one that rode over to your camp in
>the bend of the road and let me ride it. Nice guy!
>YMOS
>Ole
>----------

"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every
government on Earth... and what no just government should
refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson




--=====================_76181112==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3>Nope that was Len Brown & Lisa Dawes out of Nevada,
MO.  I ran into them in Grand Junction on the way to the AMM in
southern Colorado that year and gave them directions to Hickerson.
The came riding in across the swamp.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
At 04:48 PM 4/19/00 -0600, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>John,<br>
I think this is the guy who rode into the Western NMLRA nationals up at
Hickerson Park outside of Manilla Ut. I think it was 1982, had a
Beautiful Horse about 17 hands tall. He is the one that rode over to your
camp in the bend of the road and let me ride it. Nice guy!<br>
YMOS<br>
Ole<br>
----------</font></blockquote><br>

<font size=3><b>"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to
against every government on Earth... and what no just government should
refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></b></html>

--=====================_76181112==_.ALT--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Do you speak Apache? (O.T.)
Date: 20 Apr 2000 00:47:56 -0500

--=====================_80537673==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

The AMM History Committee would greatly appreciate the assistance of a
computer wizard.

We should be able to do all we need to do on-line.

We are talking about a significant encroachment on your time.

You do not need to be a member or even old to help on this project it is
SQL/WAN/WEB skills we need.

We (The History Committee) are compiling the first History of AMM and need
to establish web available SQL, FTP, & WEB services to aid pre-press
production.  Linux or FreeBSD, Apache and such is what we need to deal
with.  Hopefully what we create will be so useful it will be continued and
expanded as the decades of AMM History unfold and are compiled.  Would you
like to help?

Additionally we need someone expert in the use of PhotoShop (or similar
program) to "improve" poor quality snapshots at high resolution.  We only
want to improve the viewing and reproduction quality of the originals we
have -- not change what they show.

No promised reward other than our undying gratitude, a mention in the credits
and a hearty hand shake if we ever meet.

If you are interested in assisting this project please contact me off-list
to discuss the details.

John... <[e-mail]>
AMM Historian

"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every
government on Earth... and what no just government should
refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson




--=====================_80537673==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3>The AMM History Committee would greatly appreciate the
assistance of a computer wizard.  <br>
<br>
We should be able to do all we need to do on-line.  <br>
<br>
We are talking about a significant encroachment on your time.
<br>
<br>
You do not need to be a member or even old to help on this project it is
SQL/WAN/WEB skills we need.   <br>
<br>
We (The History Committee) are compiling the first History of AMM and
need to establish web available SQL, FTP, & WEB services to aid
pre-press production.  Linux or FreeBSD, Apache and such is what we
need to deal with.  Hopefully what we create will be so useful it
will be continued and expanded as the decades of AMM History unfold and
are compiled.  Would you like to help?<br>
<br>
Additionally we need someone expert in the use of PhotoShop (or similar
program) to "improve" poor quality snapshots at high
resolution.  We only want to improve the viewing and reproduction
quality of the originals we have -- not change what they show.
<br>
<br>
No promised reward other than our undying gratitude, a mention in the
credits<br>
and a hearty hand shake if we ever meet.<br>
<br>
If you are interested in assisting this project please contact me
off-list to discuss the details.<br>
<br>
John... <[e-mail]><br>
AMM Historian<br>
</font><br>

<font size=3><b>"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to
against every government on Earth... and what no just government should
refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></b></html>

--=====================_80537673==_.ALT--


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Frog/shot cu
Date: 20 Apr 2000 02:43:32 -0400

steve---
why dont you jug choke that gun---would shoot round ball and
shot---contact FFFG or myself if you want more info---


HAWK
michael pierce
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Do you speak Apache? (O.T.)
Date: 20 Apr 2000 05:48:14 -0600

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John Kramer wrote:

> The AMM History Committee would greatly appreciate the
> assistance of a computer wizard.
>
> We should be able to do all we need to do on-line.
>
> We are talking about a significant encroachment on your
> time.
>
> You do not need to be a member or even old to help on this
> project it is SQL/WAN/WEB skills we need.
>
> We (The History Committee) are compiling the first History
> of AMM and need to establish web available SQL, FTP, & WEB
> services to aid pre-press production.  Linux or FreeBSD,
> Apache and such is what we need to deal with.  Hopefully
> what we create will be so useful it will be continued and
> expanded as the decades of AMM History unfold and are
> compiled.  Would you like to help?
>
> Additionally we need someone expert in the use of
> PhotoShop (or similar program) to "improve" poor quality
> snapshots at high resolution.  We only want to improve the
> viewing and reproduction quality of the originals we have
> -- not change what they show.
>
> No promised reward other than our undying gratitude, a
> mention in the credits
> and a hearty hand shake if we ever meet.
>
> If you are interested in assisting this project please
> contact me off-list to discuss the details.
>
> John... <[e-mail]>
> AMM Historian
>
> "A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to
> against every government on Earth... and what no just
> government should refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson
>
>
>

John,
Go through the AMM web page @Dean's, go to the Baker Party,
from there contact Bill the webmaster for that site, he
maybe able to help you. He's done an excellent job on the
party site.

Later
Buck


--------------01B9F7D44B4A4FD736E46530
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
John Kramer wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font size=+0>The AMM History Committee would greatly
appreciate the assistance of a computer wizard.</font>
<p><font size=+0>We should be able to do all we need to do on-line.</font>
<p><font size=+0>We are talking about a significant encroachment on your
time.</font>
<p><font size=+0>You do not need to be a member or even old to help on
this project it is SQL/WAN/WEB skills we need.</font>
<p><font size=+0>We (The History Committee) are compiling the first History
of AMM and need to establish web available SQL, FTP, & WEB services
to aid pre-press production.  Linux or FreeBSD, Apache and such is
what we need to deal with.  Hopefully what we create will be so useful
it will be continued and expanded as the decades of AMM History unfold
and are compiled.  Would you like to help?</font>
<p><font size=+0>Additionally we need someone expert in the use of PhotoShop
(or similar program) to "improve" poor quality snapshots at high resolution.
We only want to improve the viewing and reproduction quality of the originals
we have -- not change what they show.</font>
<p><font size=+0>No promised reward other than our undying gratitude, a
mention in the credits</font>
<br><font size=+0>and a hearty hand shake if we ever meet.</font>
<p><font size=+0>If you are interested in assisting this project please
contact me off-list to discuss the details.</font>
<p><font size=+0>John... <[e-mail]></font>
<br><font size=+0>AMM Historian</font>
<p><b><font size=+0>"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to
against every government on Earth... and what no just government should
refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson</font></b>
<br>
<br>
<br> </blockquote>

<p><br>John,
<br>Go through the AMM web page @Dean's, go to the Baker Party, from there
contact Bill the webmaster for that site, he maybe able to help you. He's
done an excellent job on the party site.
<p>Later
<br>Buck
<br> </html>

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begin:vcard
n:Conner;Barry
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
org:~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~;* Chief factor,* reenactor,* history buff,* supplier.
version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
fn:Buck Conner
end:vcard

--------------F9CE6B49F3B8065FEB874D32--


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ropes
Date: 20 Apr 2000 07:56:26 -0600

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3039062187_41111_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

John,
Yea, that's him.
Ole
----------


Nope that was Len Brown & Lisa Dawes out of Nevada, MO.  I ran into them in
Grand Junction on the way to the AMM in southern Colorado that year and gave
them directions to Hickerson. The came riding in across the swamp.

John...


At 04:48 PM 4/19/00 -0600, you wrote:
John,
I think this is the guy who rode into the Western NMLRA nationals up at
Hickerson Park outside of Manilla Ut. I think it was 1982, had a Beautiful
Horse about 17 hands tall. He is the one that rode over to your camp in the
bend of the road and let me ride it. Nice guy!
YMOS
Ole
----------

"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every
government on Earth... and what no just government should refuse."  --Thomas
Jefferson





--MS_Mac_OE_3039062187_41111_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: ropes</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
John,<BR>
Yea, that's him.<BR>
Ole<BR>
----------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Nope that was Len Brown & Lisa Dawes out of Nevada, MO. &nb=
sp;I ran into them in Grand Junction on the way to the AMM in southern Color=
ado that year and gave them directions to Hickerson. The came riding in acro=
ss the swamp.<BR>
<BR>
John...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 04:48 PM 4/19/00 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>John,<BR>
I think this is the guy who rode into the Western NMLRA nationals up at Hic=
kerson Park outside of Manilla Ut. I think it was 1982, had a Beautiful Hors=
e about 17 hands tall. He is the one that rode over to your camp in the bend=
 of the road and let me ride it. Nice guy!<BR>
YMOS<BR>
Ole<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>----------<BR>
<BR>
<B>"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every =
government on Earth... and what no just government should refuse." &nbs=
p;--Thomas Jefferson<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</B></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 32 bullet mold
Date: 20 Apr 2000 10:21:46 -0400

As I remember, someone was asking about a .32 cal bullet mold.  There is one
on AuctionArms... (not mine)

http://216.25.120.66/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=4788130612

Ad Miller


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass shims
Date: 20 Apr 2000 07:55:15 -0700

My pleasure, Steve.  Glad to be able to help.  Good luck.
John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 8:59 PM


> Thanks John Funk! I got the brass shims and just in the nick of time...
Gonna
> go terrorize the turkeys this weekend with a tight hammer.
>
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Frog/shot cu
Date: 20 Apr 2000 09:45:55 -0700


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 8:57 PM
OK..... provided they just don't fall apart.
> His hand sewin is even worse than mine, if you can believe that. We're
taking
> two canoe's in to the rondy,  but thinking we may have to air drop some
stuff
> in if we stay more than a couple days....<G>

Steve,

Why so much stuff? As though we aren't taking plenty! <G> Wait until you see
the overloaded canoes and such go in. You won't think your taking much.

> You know I couldn't see the difference between the two....kinda made a
mod.
> choke out of the cyl bore.... but more flyers than I liked, and some holes
in
> the pattern. I couldn't feel any melted plastic in the bore(had a card and
> wad under the cup) and the plastic cup looked none the worse for the
wear...
> I'd sure like to have that fusil choked to mod.....but then I guess ya
can't
> shoot round balls then. The thing to do is just build a 12ga double barrel
> flintlock, I've got all the stuff, but I'm just not that handy yet....

So you have tried both plastic and paper shot cups? Is that what your saying
you couldn't find any difference between? I will have to get out again and
try many different combos myself including no shot cup at all.

>
> The wool pull over is done and you'll be impressed! I should be outta the
> detox center in time for the Frog.....<G>

So that is why buckskinners drink so heavy. My buddy Tom and I imbibe but we
don't like drunks and so that is why we camp where we do. See ya next week.
I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Mike Rock
Date: 20 Apr 2000 11:21:49 -0700

Are you out there Mike???   I lost your e-mail address in a crash, and
many others.  Please get in touch with me off list.  We are firming up
canoe trip plans.        hardtack- [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: David Thompsn - Expedition 2000 - The Passage
Date: 21 Apr 2000 17:44:02 EDT

A Mr. Pat Harbine, is planning an expedition to retrace the travels of David
Thompson as written in his journals between 1804-1811.  It will be a group of
between eight and 12 paddlers in single and tandem kayaks.  They will travel
750 miles in 23 days.  The trip begins July 29 at Bonners Ferry, Idaho and
will travel north to Kinabasket Lake in British Columbia.  The cost is $450
and participants supply their own gear (can rent kayak, canoe) and food.
Anyone interested may contact Mr. Harbine at [e-mail].  His phone
number is 509-468-0954.  He will send you an itinerary.  Participants can
travel the whole passage, or partial.

Laura Glise
[e-mail]

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From: Terry Behm <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ropes - Chuck Streeper
Date: 21 Apr 2000 23:45:29 -0400



John Kramer wrote:

>Would this be the guy that rode into Fort Bridger back in '81 or '82?

If so he had a very well thought out system of saddles (he'd made) and   =

panniers (packs).  every horse had its saddle.  He could pack or ride any=

horse and saddle with the same equipment or switch packs quickly along th=
e
trail.  Clever solutions not high tech.

Interesting and knowledgeable fellow that I met.

John...
<

John, I'm sure that was the guy's name when we visited with him at Fort
Bridger,  I have a photo of you two
standing together, I'll have to see if I can find it.  He was traveling
across the country and would switch =

horses every few hours.

Terry Behm

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From: jerry derringer <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark
Date: 21 Apr 2000 23:00:28 -0500

Evening!
Ran across an article from an old triple-a mag & it had a piece on Lewis &
Clark trail, some folks took a boat & retraced part of their journey. Got me a
wonderin... anyone have any knowledge of a special doins (such as retracing
their footsteps) for their 200 anniversary & who to contact for that info?
Seems that would be a shinin time to me.
jerry


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark
Date: 22 Apr 2000 09:44:52 -0600

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jerry derringer wrote:

> Evening!
> Ran across an article from an old triple-a mag & it had a piece on Lewis & Clark
> trail, some folks took a boat & retraced part of their journey. Got me a
> wonderin... anyone have any knowledge of a special doins (such as retracing
> their footsteps) for their 200 anniversary & who to contact for that info? Seems
> that would be a shinin time to me.
> jerry

Jerry,
I was contacted about such an event and asked if interested, which I am - said
they would get back to me first of June. I'll let you know, have heard of several
other groups making plans, nothing firm ?

Several of us have done the whole journey, but one piece of the Columbia - was
hoping that would be where one of these groups would want to have such an event.

Later
Buck


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version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
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end:vcard

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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Battle of colloden and trade faire
Date: 22 Apr 2000 19:50:09 -0400

I would like to advise everyone of two events that are coming up in my area.

The first is a reenactment of the battle of culloden. The first battle was
New York state last year. As was told me their were several hundred
participants and public was several thousand. very big event and very
successful.

The second event is a jurried trade faire. The trade faire on Caesers creek.
Good and correct  period event. 1750-1790. many good traders with correct
period goods.

colloden May 13-14 2000. phone   [phone]

trade faire May 20-21 2000 phone [phone]

Both will be held at Caesers creek state park in Waynesville, Ohio  in
southwest Ohio. Easily reached from I-71 or I-75, about half way between
Cincinnati and Dayton Ohio. About 20-30 minutes north of cincinnati.

Got a place for tin tee-pee`s nearby. state park grounds.

Event site has showers and modern hooters on site.

Many old original log cabins on site, open for inspection. Most are
furnished with close period furnishings.


John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: David Thompsn - Expedition 2000 - The Passage
Date: 23 Apr 2000 13:53:18 -0600

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--------------4E46CF248FF5B692311C9813
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

[e-mail] wrote:

> A Mr. Pat Harbine, is planning an expedition to retrace the travels of David
> Thompson as written in his journals between 1804-1811.  It will be a group of
> between eight and 12 paddlers in single and tandem kayaks.  They will travel
> 750 miles in 23 days.  The trip begins July 29 at Bonners Ferry, Idaho and will
> travel north to Kinabasket Lake in British Columbia.  The cost is $450 and
> participants supply their own gear (can rent kayak, canoe) and food.
> Anyone interested may contact Mr. Harbine at [e-mail].  His phone number
> is 509-468-0954.  He will send you an itinerary.  Participants can travel the
> whole passage, or partial.
>
> Laura Glise

Laura,
Some of these style trips are good for the new person, or those wanting to just
see the area that Thompson was in.

The problem has been in the past and hasn't changed is, controlling what is used,
worn, and the attitude of the group - many being strangers to each other, with a
wide variety of time frames in mind.

This was tried a few years ago by a group from Chicago area, 10 day trip down the
Missouri to Ft. deChartre, ILL, similar guide-lines, bottom line was with all the
internal baloney they made 3 days and 2 nights, then many just packed up and left
the rented canoes, etc. By the third night it was over according to one of the
rental guys we talked to at deChartre. He felt he was lucky to retrieve his
canoes, lost his butt on the deal, not counting time spent getting the canoes.

Hopefully this doesn't happen with the trip you mentioned, they need to really
plan and make the rules very plain and clear to everyone.

Later
Buck




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--------------4E46CF248FF5B692311C9813--


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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Old Saddle
Date: 23 Apr 2000 04:47:01 -0600

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Browsing through an antique store I found an old saddle. It appears to =
be a wooden tree without a rawhide wrapping. It is either rawhide or =
very old leather making up the covering. It has a sheepskin lining on =
the under side. It has the look of being very old and hard used. I would =
be hard put to find a horse thin and small enough to fit under it. =
Without any history behind it, can it be calculated how old it is? Would =
anyone be interested in seeing pics? Or interested in the saddle for =
that matter.=20

By the way, it was on the suggestions made by Northwood that I was in =
the place in the first place. He is correct in that you can find some =
very serviceable items in such places.

YMOS

WY


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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>Browsing through an antique store I found an old saddle. It appears =
to be a=20
wooden tree without a rawhide wrapping. It is either rawhide or very old =
leather=20
making up the covering. It has a sheepskin lining on the under side. It =
has the=20
look of being very old and hard used. I would be hard put to find a =
horse thin=20
and small enough to fit under it. Without any history behind it, can it =
be=20
calculated how old it is? Would anyone be interested in seeing pics? Or=20
interested in the saddle for that matter. </P>
<P>By the way, it was on the suggestions made by Northwood that I was in =
the=20
place in the first place. He is correct in that you can find some very=20
serviceable items in such places.</P>
<P>YMOS</P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 23 Apr 2000 04:54:46 -0600

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I have read quite a bit about winter mocs in the archives but not so =
much about the summertime version. Besides walking correctly ( I am =
learning) While staying reasonably accurate and not to hookey looking. =
What is the best way to make them thick enough to protect feet from the =
stickers and rocks that my mountains produce without the slightest =
concern for my appendages. Does anyone wear socks or blanket liners in =
summer?

YMOS

WY


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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<P>I have read quite a bit about winter mocs in the archives but not so =
much=20
about the summertime version. Besides walking correctly ( I am learning) =
While=20
staying reasonably accurate and not to hookey looking. What is the best =
way to=20
make them thick enough to protect feet from the stickers and rocks that =
my=20
mountains produce without the slightest concern for my appendages. Does =
anyone=20
wear socks or blanket liners in summer?</P>
<P>YMOS</P>
<P>WY</P></BODY></HTML>

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Saddle
Date: 23 Apr 2000 18:03:48 -0500

I'd like to see a pic. I have some catalogs from some auction houses that
had sales specifically of old saddles, and that show hundreds of different
saddles and what they sold for at the time if you would want me to look in
it for you for more info on your find. You know another place that has a lot
of old saddles if you are interested in that kind of thing is a place called
":Kings Saddlery" in Sheridan, WY. If you are ever near there take a detour
and stop in, you will be absolutely flabbergasted at what they have. Lots of
other interesting items also as they have kind of a museum set up...

northwoods


-----Original Message-----


Browsing through an antique store I found an old saddle. It appears to be a
wooden tree without a rawhide wrapping. It is either rawhide or very old
leather making up the covering. It has a sheepskin lining on the under side.
It has the look of being very old and hard used. I would be hard put to find
a horse thin and small enough to fit under it. Without any history behind
it, can it be calculated how old it is? Would anyone be interested in seeing
pics? Or interested in the saddle for that matter.

By the way, it was on the suggestions made by Northwood that I was in the
place in the first place. He is correct in that you can find some very
serviceable items in such places.

YMOS

WY




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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 23 Apr 2000 13:22:01 -0600


--------------FB8AC66FCB83D70422AC0B91
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Wynn and Gretchen,
    First thing you need to know is that no matter what you do,
somethings
will always get in your mocs, stick in your feet or hurt you. We as
modern
people seem to have alot more tender feet than the ones who came before
us.
I use normal thickness deer leather with a wool pad ( made out of a left
over
piece of blanketing) in the summer along with my wool sock. This helps,
but
will never be like a the modern hiking shoes of today. Toughen up your
feet,
double up the soles if needed or use different pairs for different
surfaces.
There are places where a good rawhide bottom is great. But these are
very slippery when
wet or on grassly surfaces. A double sole gives you more of a modern
sole- but
will take twice as long to dry out when soaked. And sometimes you need
to use
your toes to grip when going on a hike, so a single thickness tradional
moc is right.
You might try making mocs (and you will get good at it when you replace
them once a
year or more) with different thickness leather. Even try cow leather. I
always have two
on hand, they don't take up much space. And see which works best for
you. Wool
socks (specially "booties" made out of  a thick wool blanket) help. If
you find you need
a special arch for support- use it. I have friends who do and they can
be hidden easily.
I also know a few guys who go bare foot at rendezvous to toughen up the
feet. And use
their mocs every where else.
                                                    mike.

Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:

> I have read quite a bit about winter mocs in the archives but not so
> much about the summertime version. Besides walking correctly ( I am
> learning) While staying reasonably accurate and not to hookey looking.
> What is the best way to make them thick enough to protect feet from
> the stickers and rocks that my mountains produce without the slightest
> concern for my appendages. Does anyone wear socks or blanket liners in
> summer?
>
> YMOS
>
> WY

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Wynn and Gretchen,
<br>    First thing you need to know is that no matter what
you do, somethings
<br>will always get in your mocs, stick in your feet or hurt you. We as
modern
<br>people seem to have alot more tender feet than the ones who came before
us.
<br>I use normal thickness deer leather with a wool pad ( made out of a
left over
<br>piece of blanketing) in the summer along with my wool sock. This helps,
but
<br>will never be like a the modern hiking shoes of today. Toughen up your
feet,
<br>double up the soles if needed or use different pairs for different
surfaces.
<br>There are places where a good rawhide bottom is great. But these are
very slippery when
<br>wet or on grassly surfaces. A double sole gives you more of a modern
sole- but
<br>will take twice as long to dry out when soaked. And sometimes you need
to use
<br>your toes to grip when going on a hike, so a single thickness tradional
moc is right.
<br>You might try making mocs (and you will get good at it when you replace
them once a
<br>year or more) with different thickness leather. Even try cow leather.
I always have two
<br>on hand, they don't take up much space. And see which works best for
you. Wool
<br>socks (specially "booties" made out of  a thick wool blanket)
help. If you find you need
<br>a special arch for support- use it. I have friends who do and they
can be hidden easily.
<br>I also know a few guys who go bare foot at rendezvous to toughen up
the feet. And use
<br>their mocs every where else.
<br>
mike.
<p>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>

<p>I have read quite a bit about winter mocs in the archives but not so
much about the summertime version. Besides walking correctly ( I am learning)
While staying reasonably accurate and not to hookey looking. What is the
best way to make them thick enough to protect feet from the stickers and
rocks that my mountains produce without the slightest concern for my appendages.
Does anyone wear socks or blanket liners in summer?
<p>YMOS
<p>WY</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Trade faire/events
Date: 24 Apr 2000 09:08:12 EDT

Hello in the camp,

Speaking of events and things to do this Thursday April 27th thru Sunday
there is a BIG market faire at the French and Indian War Fort at Ft.
Frederick State Park in Maryland.  That is right up at the skinneyest part of
the Maryland western arm.  If you need a gun, a pot, a wig, a hat, a set of
new beads this is the event to go to.  Great shopping and great camp.  Camp
fills up fast and they limit the number of campers but if you get there early
Thursday you may even still get in to camp.  The fort at night is great and
the folks are friendly.

Hope to see you there.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes

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From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: leather canteens
Date: 24 Apr 2000 06:21:36 -0700

Klahowya my friends;

It has been several weeks since I have been on line, but the agricultural
planting season here is winding down.  So here goes.....  I would like to
gather any information that anyone could share concerning the construction
and sealing of leather canteens.  Also any documentation of use between 1760
and 1840.  If photographs or specifics are available as to size, etc. these
would also be appreciated.
YMOS
PoorBoy



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark
Date: 24 Apr 2000 11:41:26 EDT

    Evidently, this journey is not as easy as one might think.
    You might want to read River Horse by William Least Heat Moon.  He made a
water route all across the U.S. beginning in New York.  He used Lewis and
Clark's journals for that section of his journey and contrasted the modern
with the historic.

    Steve Huss

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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Old saddle
Date: 24 Apr 2000 08:54:52 -0700 (PDT)

Wynne, I too would like to see pix of the old saddle
you picked up.  It is impossible to give an estimate
of age with your current description.  What is the
size of the seat?  The mustang ponies of the old west
were quite a bit smaller than horses of today, but if
it is a full size saddle it can be used with proper
padding.  Send pix to me off line, and I will try to
help, or post them on site and you will probably get a
lot of comments.  YMOS< Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mexican Saddle
Date: 24 Apr 2000 09:15:33 -0700

Speaking of Mexican Saddles, a Brother has a new one for sale. He is in
Lewiston Idaho and the saddle is with me in Kennewick, WA. There was someone
interested in it a while back through another member of this list. I have
deleted the original message and thus the contact information.

Anyone out there that is interested in the saddle or was originally involved
in the above exchange please contact me. Thanks and I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 24 Apr 2000 12:32:25 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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WY,

I live in desert basalt country, even where there are tree's, the basalt =
grows better than the vegetation. Lots of sharp rock. I have found that =
a "shoe pack" moc works well. It is constructed of two sole pieces made =
of oil tanned leather about 1/8" thick each. The upper is formed of two =
pieces of leather sewn to the sole's with a double running stitch and =
joined up the center of the toe area with a baseball or cross stitch. =
They can be as high as you wish, have a tongue or not and do a fine job =
of turning most anything I can run into. If you cut a shallow slit =
between stitch holes on the bottom sole piece, the thread will lay in  =
that slit and not wear as quickly as it otherwise might, even though it =
comes out the bottom just like the stitch on some leather shoes. You =
could even sew on a heal of two or more pieces of stout leather if you =
cared to. It is not even necessary to make the uppers in two pieces if =
you use soft leather like brained deer as it will mold to the top shape =
of your foot.=20

Greased up properly they will turn quit a bit of moisture too. And you =
can make them so they fit with what ever combination of blanket bootee =
or sock you want to wear. I usually don't wear blanket bootees in summer =
but do wear socks. Hope that helps. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

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    charset="Windows-1252"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>WY,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I live in desert basalt country, even where there are tree's, the =
basalt=20
grows better than the vegetation. Lots of sharp rock. I have found that =
a "shoe=20
pack" moc works well. It is constructed of two sole pieces made of oil =
tanned=20
leather about 1/8" thick each. The upper is formed of two pieces of =
leather sewn=20
to the sole's with a double running stitch and joined up the center of =
the toe=20
area with a baseball or cross stitch. They can be as high as you wish, =
have a=20
tongue or not and do a fine job of turning most anything I can run into. =
If you=20
cut a shallow slit between stitch holes on the bottom sole piece, the =
thread=20
will lay in  that slit and not wear as quickly as it otherwise =
might, even=20
though it comes out the bottom just like the stitch on some leather =
shoes. You=20
could even sew on a heal of two or more pieces of stout leather if you =
cared to.=20
It is not even necessary to make the uppers in two pieces if you use =
soft=20
leather like brained deer as it will mold to the top shape of your foot. =
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Greased up properly they will turn quit a bit of moisture too. And =
you can=20
make them so they fit with what ever combination of blanket bootee or =
sock you=20
want to wear. I usually don't wear blanket bootees in summer but do wear =
socks.=20
Hope that helps. I remain....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Capt. Lahti'</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 24 Apr 2000 16:32:49 -0400

In the summertime in Kentucky, where the soil is deep and soft and the
rocks are  usually limestone, sometimes sandstone, I find I get by just
fine with a pretty simple outfit for my feet. I make regular centerseam
moccasins of elk hide,
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Centerseams.jpg but add a thin liner
or innersole. This is made of a harder vegetable tanned leather, but is
thin, only about 4-6 oz. I skive the edge for 1/2 inch, and they conform to
the bottom of my foot nicely, so I never know they are there. They add just
that little extra protection I need. I usually wear one pair of wool
knee-length stockings with them, and it makes for comfortable feet in all
conditions.

I always wear them with the tops turned up and lapped around the ankle,
with a thong passed under my instep, tied once on top, then wrapped twice
around the ankle and tied. Secure, won't slip around on your foot, and the
thong gives a little bit of extra traction. With leggings down over the
whole top, nothing ever gets in my moccasins.

I gave up trying to waterproof moccasins years ago.

Bob



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 24 Apr 2000 17:31:44 EDT

> but add a thin liner
>  or innersole. This is made of a harder vegetable tanned leather, but is
>  thin, only about 4-6 oz. I skive the edge for 1/2 inch, and they conform to
>  the bottom of my foot nicely, so I never know they are there

A little addenda to Bob's description of an inner sole.

I always make my mocs smooth side out and rough side in.  If you make inner
soles, cut them so that the rough side is down.  As you wear them, the rough
sides will kind of interlace with one another and bond firm.  If you put the
smooth side of the inner sole down, then when you wear the mocs, the inner
sole will slide.  If you get your mocs wet, then they will take on a lopsided
set and keep rolling to one side.

I first learned this with a pair of kit centerseams.  All the inner soles are
cut in advance, but all are cut the same way.  Thus, you either have two
lefts or two rights.  The mocassin that you have to put the smooth side down
in, will be the moccasin that goes screwy on you.

I now line all my mocs with wool during the building process (double
thickness-1 layer hide/1 layer wool) and put the inner sole on the wool.  The
rough of the inner sole locks into the wool fibers.  These keep your feet
warmer and drier during wet weather, and the wool inner dries out quicker
from that early morning dew bath they always get.  You don't need to wear
socks with them until the weather gets much colder.....probably in the 30's.

Dave Kanger

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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark
Date: 24 Apr 2000 14:34:09 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 [e-mail] wrote:
>     Evidently, this journey is not as easy as one might think.

Hallo

Some of us here in the Great Pacific NW have contemplated such a journey,
but for most of us, work rules out completion in one shot... additional
problems we have talked about, are the miles and miles of now slack water
that lay between the headwaters of the Columbia, and the Pacific Ocean,
particularly if you were to attempt the journey in dugouts.

Gives you a new understanding of why our beautiful Salmon are now little
more than just a treasured memory in one of the most heavily dammed
rivers.... ah, what price progress?

A rowed/sailed battuex or frieghter Canot de Nord would be the way to go,
that and sixty? days of vacation to prep and run the River of the
West.

An interesting thought.

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mexican Saddle
Date: 24 Apr 2000 23:18:56 EDT

You didn't mention a price.  Is it a Charro saddle?

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From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: leather canteens
Date: 24 Apr 2000 17:30:22 -0600

One person which can help you with your leather canteen questions
is Tim Shaw ([e-mail]). Tim makes leather canteens
annd does a good job.
                                            mike.

Poorboy wrote:

> Klahowya my friends;
>
> It has been several weeks since I have been on line, but the agricultural
> planting season here is winding down.  So here goes.....  I would like to
> gather any information that anyone could share concerning the construction
> and sealing of leather canteens.  Also any documentation of use between 1760
> and 1840.  If photographs or specifics are available as to size, etc. these
> would also be appreciated.
> YMOS
> PoorBoy
>
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: leather canteens
Date: 24 Apr 2000 23:34:25 EDT

YMOS, I'd appreciate any info you get on leather canteens that can be passed
by email.  Thanks.

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From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mexican Saddle
Date: 24 Apr 2000 21:07:13 -0700

I'm not at liberty to mention a price. The price may be negotiable. And as
to what particular kind of saddle it is, I can not say, not being a mounted
person. If there is any interest, I can take a dig. pic and send it out. To
my eye it is an unused saddle in excellent shape. Sorry that I can not be
more helpful. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 8:18 PM


> You didn't mention a price.  Is it a Charro saddle?
>
> ----------------------
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>



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Period Cooking Equipment
Date: 25 Apr 2000 01:15:20 EDT


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this is a very interesting site received on the native list, so i'm
forwarding it to the Mtn Man list....   Barney

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Here is a site in Britain that offers some interesting period cookware.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/LCVInternational/periodpr.htm

Jim


Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget.
Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already
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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Apr 2000 07:12:49 -0700 (PDT)

I am still waiting to hear from Wynn and Gretchen
Ormond about the saddle they found-nothing about it
being Mexican.  Wynn, if you see this, please send pix
or detailed info on the saddle you have, and I'll help
out if I can on Identifiing it.,  YMOS, Dog

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
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From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 25 Apr 2000 08:42:43 -0600

My first pair of moccasins were made of brain-tanned deer leather, which I
bought at a local souvenir store. My first event was a big 10-day
rendezvous at Old Fort William, where most of the paths are covered with
fine, sharp gravel, except for the road, which is covered by large rocks.
By the end of the rendezvous, I had no bottoms to my moccasins, and my feet
were raw. That was the first and last straw. Now I wear brain-tanned moose
moccasins with an extra bottom sole of cow hide, added by a local
shoemaker. I wear them with a pair of Dr. Scholl's liners, and I've
returned to Old Fort William twice and had no problems.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: "Matthew Hawley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loose hammer
Date: 25 Apr 2000 11:43:50 PDT

Steve
The easy way to fix a loose hanndle is to take the end with everyting in
tack and put the loose end in a 5 gallon pail let soke for two days that
should tighten it up you can also add a shimm to. This will also work on new
handle fittings too.
                      matt (white eagle)


>From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loose hammer
>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:12:17 -0700
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
>Steve,
>Send me an address off line and I'll send you a small piece of brass shim
>about .01 thick.
>John Funk
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 12:07 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loose hammer
>
>
> > <<<First make sure it is the hammer and not the tumbler.>>>>
> > Yup....it's the hammer like I said.
> >
> > <<<A simple shim made from brass shim stock is probably best.  Don't go
>peening everything unless it is a last resort.  Even aluminum foil might
>work as a shim.>>>
> >
> > Hmmm...good idea, I'll try the alum. foil but don't know where I'd find
>some brass that thin...
> >
> > Thanks Dave, Hawk, I'll let you know what worked...
> >
> > Ymos,
> > Steve
> >
> > ----------------------
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> >
>
>
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From: "Matthew Hawley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn
Date: 25 Apr 2000 11:54:54 PDT


here is somthing ton try you did every thing right. while you move them
around take melted butter and put it in a spray bottle and lightly mist it
with butter the butter will keep it from scorching
and give it a buttery flavor sealed away it will keep for a while and then
some . You can eat it alone with out cooking or make soup what ever you
want.
         matt (white Eagle)


>From: [e-mail]
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>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn
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>Ad
>   Jill and I have made parched corn the same way you did a time or two
>when
>in a pitch for some. It worked out for us, you have to keep the kernels of
>corn moving to keep them from scorching almost like pop corn but not that
>much movement. keep turning them, those small kernels from frozen corn
>scorch
>easily as you found out. We still had a few black spots on ours but they
>ate
>well and when boiled up with rice were soft and tender. After parching the
>corn seems to boil up faster.
>                                               See ya on the trail
>                                                Crazy Cyot
>
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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn
Date: 25 Apr 2000 15:01:00 -0400

around take melted butter and put it in a spray bottle and lightly mist it
> with butter the butter will keep it from scorching

Seems to me it would go rancid prety fast...>
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
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From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Finnin McDonald
Date: 25 Apr 2000 12:31:07 -0700 (PDT)

Hallo Folks

A couple of times recently I've heard reference to a fur post that bears
the name of Mr. McDonald... yet I can find no documentation for such a
place.  Any answers or leads out there?

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill



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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark
Date: 25 Apr 2000 19:29:11 -0600

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Lee Newbill wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 [e-mail] wrote:
> >     Evidently, this journey is not as easy as one might think.
> Hallo
> Some of us here in the Great Pacific NW have contemplated such a journey,
> but for most of us, work rules out completion in one shot... additional
> problems we have talked about, are the miles and miles of now slack water
> that lay between the headwaters of the Columbia, and the Pacific Ocean,
> particularly if you were to attempt the journey in dugouts.
> A rowed/sailed battuex or frieghter Canot de Nord would be the way to go,
> that and sixty? days of vacation to prep and run the River of the West.
> An interesting thought.
> Your Most Obedient Servant...
> Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho

Lee,
    I don't care how long or how much time and effort one puts into a journey
like what has been mentioned, there will always be items missed or unexpected
events that change the time schedule. Anything from poor water conditions to
no water, weather, equipage problems, sickness, etc.
    In all the years we have worked the Missouri - Upper & Lower, the
Mississippi, smaller bodies of water like the Green, Platte, Osage, etc. we
have found that right up until the day you leave is what you'll have to work
with for water conditions.
    We have watched and checked conditions of the routes planned to travel
for 3-4 months ahead, plus making dozens of calls to different points along
the route and think we have a handle on it, then the day we get loaded and
start our journey, the conditions have changed within a week from leaving
right down to a few hours before.
    From good moving water, to no water, flash floods, unexpected storms,
irrigation projects, a barrage wreck, member gets real sick and can't paddle,
etc. all adds days that weren't planned to the trip.
    I thought we where the luckiest group that ever traveled when missing our
planned schedule by 10 hours in a 1620 mile 28 day trip; that's 10 hours
ahead of schedule, so we laid up for 2/3 of a day before making our grand
entry. "WOW, only 23 minutes early, not bad for a sun dial compass" was what
one member told the press.
    We normally plan a couple extra days for the unknown.
Later
Buck

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n:Conner;Barry
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
org:~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~;* Chief factor,* reenactor,* history buff,* supplier.
version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 25 Apr 2000 20:34:58 -0500

Even better than Dr. Scholl's liners are those made by Spenco.  You can =
find them in pharmacies. They cost about $20 but they are so much =
superior that they are cheap at the price.  I am diabetic and have to =
take special care of my feet.....they are about 30% numb, for one =
thing....and I have found nothing to compare with the Spenco product.  =
Mine are  cross trainer athletic shoe innersole liners and have a bit of =
a heel and an arch.  They make walking immensely more =
comfortable...actually possible, in my case.
I glue bison hide to the bottom of my mocs to prolong their life, =
replacing them as they wear out.
Lanney Ratcliff


----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Friday, April 25, 1980 9:42 AM


> My first pair of moccasins were made of brain-tanned deer leather, =
which I
> bought at a local souvenir store. My first event was a big 10-day
> rendezvous at Old Fort William, where most of the paths are covered =
with
> fine, sharp gravel, except for the road, which is covered by large =
rocks.
> By the end of the rendezvous, I had no bottoms to my moccasins, and my =
feet
> were raw. That was the first and last straw. Now I wear brain-tanned =
moose
> moccasins with an extra bottom sole of cow hide, added by a local
> shoemaker. I wear them with a pair of Dr. Scholl's liners, and I've
> returned to Old Fort William twice and had no problems.
>=20
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 25 Apr 2000 22:07:48 EDT

Lanney's right, Spenco's are great.  I am diabetic also with the added
pleasure of nasty tendonitis in my right foot.   That coupled with a torn up
ankle( the right one also) and walking gets to be sorta like having a root
canal.  Without my Spenco's, I couldnt make it.  Okay my two cents are up.
Keep yer powder dry;

Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith

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From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: moccasin liners
Date: 25 Apr 2000 21:00:33 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BFAEF9.4BD80040
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear List,   =20
    Wool "shoe pack" liners are great for winter weather.  They stay =
warm while wet (and they will get wet).  For summer wear I use a sheep =
wool liner just for a bit of comfort.  The great thing about moccasins =
is that they allow you to feel the ground.  Mother earth makes contact, =
often in painful ways.  It teaches me to walk differently.  I walk (and =
run) more carefully.  I have time to look for sign. The thin layer =
between foot and ground allows me to feel my way along a trail even at =
night.  I step on rocks, sure, but I more often step between them =
because I set my foot down lighter. =20
    White man seldom becomes a partner with nature.  More often he is at =
odds.  He hides from rain, demands comfort and sees nature as a =
combative force, an enemy not an ally.  The hard soled shoe or boot is a =
reflection of that philosophy.  No longer a need to walk softly or =
quietly.  Why bother?  It won't hurt.  Natural man in whatever country =
most often goes barefoot or in a plant or leather moccasin.  At first =
because it was cheap and available.  Afterwards, it became a spiritual =
thing.  A way of keeping contact with the center of the earth.   Those =
of us who want to experience that world will "walk in their shoes".  =
Sometimes uncomfortably, sometimes even painfully, but, eventually, with =
more knowledge and appreciation of what we try to learn.
    I've tried the double soles, the triple liners, the modern foam pads =
and I found that it was like wearing a pair of shoes that looked like =
moccasins.  It 'aint the same.  The essence is lost.  I'm not speaking =
in response to the infirm.  Those whose health requires compromise in =
order to witness nature must do what is necessary.  I'm speaking to =
those who are able to experience nature as she is.  Compromise for =
comfort's sake alone will demand a price.  For me, it required that I =
stop feeling my surroundings to the fullest.  I stopped paying that =
price.  My summer mocs are single soled with a sheep skin liner.  I =
carry a thinner slipper pair for camp use and as a thickener when the =
terrain demands pain.
=20
Just my thoughts on the matter.
=20
"Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber (Old and slow) =20

------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BFAEF9.4BD80040
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear List,    =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Wool "shoe pack" =
liners are=20
great for winter weather.  They stay warm while wet (and they will =
get=20
wet).  For summer wear I use a sheep wool liner just for a bit of=20
comfort.  The great thing about moccasins is that they allow you to =
feel=20
the ground.  Mother earth makes contact, often in painful =
ways.  It=20
teaches me to walk differently.  I walk (and run) more =
carefully.  I=20
have time to look for sign. The thin layer between foot and ground =
allows me to=20
feel my way along a trail even at night.  I step on rocks, sure, =
but I more=20
often step between them because I set my foot down lighter.  =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    White man seldom =
becomes a=20
partner with nature.  More often he is at odds.  He hides from =
rain,=20
demands comfort and sees nature as a combative force, an enemy not an=20
ally.  The hard soled shoe or boot is a reflection of that=20
philosophy.  No longer a need to walk softly or quietly.  Why=20
bother?  It won't hurt.  Natural man in whatever country most =
often=20
goes barefoot or in a plant or leather moccasin.  At first because =
it was=20
cheap and available.  Afterwards, it became a spiritual =
thing.  A way=20
of keeping contact with the center of the earth.   Those of us =
who=20
want to experience that world will "walk in their shoes".  =
Sometimes=20
uncomfortably, sometimes even painfully, but, eventually, with more =
knowledge=20
and appreciation of what we try to learn.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    I've tried the =
double soles, the=20
triple liners, the modern foam pads and I found that it was like wearing =
a pair=20
of shoes that looked like moccasins.  It 'aint the same.  The =
essence=20
is lost.  I'm not speaking in response to the infirm.  Those =
whose=20
health requires compromise in order to witness nature must do what is=20
necessary.  I'm speaking to those who are able to experience nature =
as she=20
is.  Compromise for comfort's sake alone will demand a =
price. =20
For me, it required that I stop feeling my surroundings to the =
fullest.  I=20
stopped paying that price.  My summer mocs are single soled with a =
sheep=20
skin liner.  I carry a thinner slipper pair for camp use and as a =
thickener=20
when the terrain demands pain.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just my thoughts on the =
matter.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber (Old =
and=20
slow)  </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BFAEF9.4BD80040--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: David Thompsn - Expedition 2000 - The Passage]
Date: 26 Apr 2000 16:41:27 EDT

[e-mail] wrote:

  A Mr. Pat Harbine, is planning an expedition to retrace the travels of =
David
Thompson as written in his journals between 1804-1811.  It will be a grou=
p
of............................

<[e-mail]> wrote:
  Some of these style trips are good for the new person, or those wanting=
 to
just see the area that Thompson was in.................
  The problem has been in the past and hasn't changed is, controlling wha=
t is
used, worn, and the attitude of the group - many being strangers to each
other.............
  This was tried a few years ago by a group from Chicago area, 10 day tri=
p
down the Missouri to Ft. deChartre, ILL, similar guide-lines, bottom line=
 was
with all the internal baloney they made 3 days and 2 nights......

We ran into the fellow that had the rental canoes, he's a slow learner - =
did
another trip two years later with similar results. Like said, you need yo=
ur
members to have like interests and if at all possible been together on sh=
orter
trips to see how they work with each other.

Later
Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark]
Date: 26 Apr 2000 16:50:18 EDT

<[e-mail]> wrote:
    I don't care how long or how much time and effort one puts into a jou=
rney
like what has been mentioned, there will always be items missed or unexpe=
cted
events that change the time schedule...................
    In all the years we have worked the Missouri - Upper & Lower, the
Mississippi, smaller bodies of water like the Green, Platte, Osage, etc. =
we
have found that right up until the day you leave ..................
    From good moving water, to no water, flash floods, unexpected storms,=

irrigation projects, a barrage wreck, member gets real sick and can't pad=
dle,
etc. all adds days that weren't planned ..............

How true, I've been on a third of these trips with Buck, Rover and the ot=
hers
(a half-dozen) and there are always changes to the original plans.

Add extra hours or at least a day.

Concho.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads
Date: 26 Apr 2000 20:08:46 EDT

Hallo the List,

I just got back from a trip to Great Falls, MT and managed to spend about
four hours at the Lewis and Clark Interpretive Center.... a "must see" spot
if you're in the neighborhood.
One exhibit had an example of what was carried for trade and gifts on the
Voyage of Discovery ....beads, mirrors, blankets, etc. What I didn't see was
the "Lewis and Clark Bead"....you know the black one with a kinda floral
pattern, about the size of a pecan... more or less. The bead had a different
name then, from Italy I think....and was to suppose to have gone up river
with them. When I asked some of the folks there, if they knew of that bead,
they didn't seem to know what it was. Anyone have the story on the missing
"Lewis and Clark Bead"?
Ymos,
Steve

....and

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 26 Apr 2000 20:26:17 EDT

Ho the List

....also, while at the L&C center, I picked up a bronze Jefferson Peace Medal
exactly like the one carried by L&C and given to the Indian chiefs. The medal
was struck, as I understand it, by the US Mint, on the original mold, only in
bronze, rather than silver as were the originals. Does anyone know if this is
true...that the US Mint used the original mold cast in 1801?

It's a pretty neat medal and I plan on having it silver plated and tell the
story about how I found it on the banks of the Columbia River....

Ymos,
Steve

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From: Julia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 26 Apr 2000 18:10:00 -0700

Honorable Master Steven,

Be it know, that my dear departed husband, did  but  just last year,
loose such a medal in the mighty rolling Columbia River.  He did lose
it as he  slipped into the river and drown on a cold rainy Northwest
day.  God rest his soul.

Surly you would not deprive such a token of respect  from a grieving
old widow woman.
So,  hows about handing that there precious medal on over to me?

Yours in the utmost respect,
Maw Hawk

>Ho the List
>
>....also, while at the L&C center, I picked up a bronze Jefferson Peace Medal
>exactly like the one carried by L&C and given to the Indian chiefs. The medal
>was struck, as I understand it, by the US Mint, on the original mold, only in
>bronze, rather than silver as were the originals. Does anyone know if this is
>true...that the US Mint used the original mold cast in 1801?
>
>It's a pretty neat medal and I plan on having it silver plated and tell the
>story about how I found it on the banks of the Columbia River....
>
>Ymos,
>Steve
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads
Date: 26 Apr 2000 19:32:02 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------BCB0DC30C03DE6D708AD47C3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

[e-mail] wrote:

> Hallo the List,
>
> I just got back from a trip to Great Falls, MT and managed to spend about four
> hours at the Lewis and Clark Interpretive Center.... a "must see" spot if
> you're in the neighborhood.
> One exhibit had an example of what was carried for trade and gifts on the
> Voyage of Discovery ....beads, mirrors, blankets, etc. What I didn't see was
> the "Lewis and Clark Bead"....you know the black one with a kinda floral
> pattern, about the size of a pecan... more or less. The bead had a different
> name then, from Italy I think....and was to suppose to have gone up river with
> them. When I asked some of the folks there, if they knew of that bead, they
> didn't seem to know what it was. Anyone have the story on the missing "Lewis
> and Clark Bead"?
> Ymos,  Steve
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    See Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, Winter 1998, pg. 2; "Beads of the
Plains Fur Trade, 1775-1875" Has some interesting information, of which is
mentioned about what and who was trading beads; "point is that the name now in
vogue for them [bead names] is just that and has nothing do do with the bead's
true origin or history. The same applies to such names as "Lewis & Clark beads,"
"Dutch Donuts," "padre beads," and so forth. They are all recently invented
names, and in the case of those mentioned above, were not distributed by Lewis &
Clark, traded by the Dutch, or given out by Roman Catholic missionaries.
Ironically, old names like "pound beads" have been replaced by modern ones such
as "pony beads," and other genuine old descriptive names such as pigeon eggs,
mock garnets, and barleycorns are no longer used............
    The article goes on to talk about the names of old compared to what we call
them and how many of the tales of trade by L&C, and so on have all come about in
the past century.
    I bought a dozen "Lewis & Clark", about the same of "Imperials" years ago,
finally at one of the early Chardon Fur Trade Days, Charley Hanson took me aside
and told me I had been had, they where old beads but not as old as I was told,
probably came west about 25-30 years after the Corps of Discovery.
    When "Brass Turtle"Sample and "Turtle" Boyer went down they each had a few
put in their caskets along with a few other items of trade for the other side,
figured they needed a fresh start with the old timers.
    Today they are worth about what I paid 25 years ago for them - live and
learn, win a few and lose many.

Later
Buck


--------------BCB0DC30C03DE6D708AD47C3
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begin:vcard
n:Conner;Barry
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
org:~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~;* Chief factor,* reenactor,* history buff,* supplier.
version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
fn:Buck Conner
end:vcard

--------------BCB0DC30C03DE6D708AD47C3--


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 26 Apr 2000 19:34:11 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------3D9610654810C7FD48E452EC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julia wrote:

> Honorable Master Steven,
>
> Be it know, that my dear departed husband, did  but  just last year,
> loose such a medal in the mighty rolling Columbia River.  He did lose
> it as he  slipped into the river and drown on a cold rainy Northwest
> day.  God rest his soul.
>
> Surly you would not deprive such a token of respect  from a grieving
> old widow woman.
> So,  hows about handing that there precious medal on over to me?
>
> Yours in the utmost respect,
> Maw Hawk
>
> >Ho the List
> >
> >....also, while at the L&C center, I picked up a bronze Jefferson Peace Medal
> >exactly like the one carried by L&C and given to the Indian chiefs. The medal
> >was struck, as I understand it, by the US Mint, on the original mold, only in
> >bronze, rather than silver as were the originals. Does anyone know if this is
> >true...that the US Mint used the original mold cast in 1801?
> >
> >It's a pretty neat medal and I plan on having it silver plated and tell the
> >story about how I found it on the banks of the Columbia River....
> >
> >Ymos,
> >Steve

Did they ever recover your loss Julia !


--------------3D9610654810C7FD48E452EC
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for â─ïÄ¿
Content-Disposition: attachment;
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begin:vcard
n:Conner;Barry
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
org:~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~;* Chief factor,* reenactor,* history buff,* supplier.
version:2.1
email;internet:[e-mail]
title:http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=0D=0APO Box 28168=0D=0A13111 W. Alameda Pkwy #16;Lakewood;Colorado;80228;USA
fn:Buck Conner
end:vcard

--------------3D9610654810C7FD48E452EC--


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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]
Date: 26 Apr 2000 21:49:08 EDT

<[e-mail]> wrote:
    When "Brass Turtle"Sample and "Turtle" Boyer went down they each had =
a few
put in their caskets along with a few other items of trade for the other =
side,
figured they needed a fresh start with the old timers.......
Hey brother,

What are you going to do for me Buck when it's my time,hee hee.

"Concho"

____________________________________________________________________
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From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal]
Date: 26 Apr 2000 21:52:53 EDT

Julia wrote:
> Honorable Master Steven,
>
> Be it know, that my dear departed husband, did  but  just last year,
> loose such a medal in the mighty rolling Columbia River.  He did lose
> it as he  slipped into the river and drown on a cold rainy Northwest
> day.  God rest his soul.
>
> Surly you would not deprive such a token of respect  from a grieving
> old widow woman.
> So,  hows about handing that there precious medal on over to me?
>
> Yours in the utmost respect,
> Maw Hawk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<[e-mail]> wrote:

Did they ever recover your loss Julia !

Buck
Pay attention son, she said she thought the metal was hers.

"Concho"

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]
Date: 26 Apr 2000 22:06:42 -0400


What are you going to do for me Buck when it's my time,hee hee.

"Concho"

Buck,
Can I have his gold fillings..?<G>
D




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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]
Date: 26 Apr 2000 21:32:03 -0500

I didn't have the opportunity to meet Turtle Boyer, but I knew Brass =
Turtle.  That man was a piece of work and I miss him.  I know he is =
holding court on the other side every chance he gets.
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 8:49 PM


<[e-mail]> wrote:
    When "Brass Turtle"Sample and "Turtle" Boyer went down they each had =
a few
put in their caskets along with a few other items of trade for the other =
side,
figured they needed a fresh start with the old timers.......
Hey brother,

What are you going to do for me Buck when it's my time,hee hee.

"Concho"

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at =
http://webmail.netscape.com.

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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal]
Date: 26 Apr 2000 19:52:58 -0600

Concho Smith wrote:

> Julia wrote:
> > Honorable Master Steven,
> >
> > Be it know, that my dear departed husband, did  but  just last year,
> > loose such a medal in the mighty rolling Columbia River.  He did lose
> > it as he  slipped into the river and drown on a cold rainy Northwest
> > day.  God rest his soul.
> >
> > Surly you would not deprive such a token of respect  from a grieving
> > old widow woman.
> > So,  hows about handing that there precious medal on over to me?
> >
> > Yours in the utmost respect,
> > Maw Hawk
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Did they ever recover your loss Julia !
>
> Buck
> -------------------------------------
> Pay attention son, she said she thought the metal was hers.
>
> "Concho"

That's not was I was referring to Concho.





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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]
Date: 26 Apr 2000 19:51:47 -0600

Concho Smith wrote:

> <[e-mail]> wrote:
>     When "Brass Turtle"Sample and "Turtle" Boyer went down they each had a few
> put in their caskets along with a few other items of trade for the other side,
> figured they needed a fresh start with the old timers.......
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Hey brother,
>
> What are you going to do for me Buck when it's my time,hee hee.
>
> "Concho"

road apples have come to mind.





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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 26 Apr 2000 22:43:22 EDT


In a message dated 4/26/00 6:05:27 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Surly you would not deprive such a token of respect  from a grieving
old widow woman.
So,  hows about handing that there precious medal on over to me?
 >>

Dear Widder Julia,

Tis with a heavy heart I learn of yer husbands passing and the loss of the
coin that drug him to the bottom. While I've misplaced your precious medal, I
do happen to have a pure silver one I'd let go reasonable...

Ymos,
Steve

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From: Julia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 26 Apr 2000 22:24:14 -0700


>In a message dated 4/26/00 6:05:27 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><< Surly you would not deprive such a token of respect  from a grieving
>old widow woman.
>So,  hows about handing that there precious medal on over to me?
>  >>
>
>Dear Widder Julia,
>
>Tis with a heavy heart I learn of yer husbands passing and the loss of the
>coin that drug him to the bottom. While I've misplaced your precious medal, I
>do happen to have a pure silver one I'd let go reasonable...
>
>Ymos,
>Steve
>

My Dear Sir,

I do indeed thank you for your condolences.  I fear it will not be an
easy road without my dear husband,  as he did leave me with barren
fields and a real lack in the larder.

Your most kind offer is most appreciated,  although to be sure, I
will be needing every penny to feed my poor children.
God bless you Sir,  and may your silver medal bring you only joy and
good fortune.

May peace be forever in your soul,
The Widow Julia


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
Date: 27 Apr 2000 01:47:14 EDT

I am at a point where I think I would like to acquire or build myself a
flintlock.  Several months back there was some discussion about guns and
making guns.  I have done some research and have developed some interest in
the Pecotonica Long Rifle Company.  They produce several different guns one
of which, the southern mountain rifle, has drawn my interest.  Has anyone had
any experience with this particular company or can you direct me to some
place I could find a great shooting rifle?  I'm looking for something that
would be found during the early 1800's (1810 to 1830).

YMHS

Steve

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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]
Date: 27 Apr 2000 06:09:31 -0600

D Miles wrote:

> What are you going to do for me Buck when it's my time,hee hee.
>
> "Concho"
>
> Buck,
> Can I have his gold fillings..?<G>
> D

He has a few gold crowns (in his big mouth-should be easy to get one of
your BIG knives in).

Buck





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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]
Date: 27 Apr 2000 08:48:37 -0400

'Preciate it, I will give you a finders fee....
D
You still at home?
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 8:09 AM


> D Miles wrote:
>
> > What are you going to do for me Buck when it's my time,hee hee.
> >
> > "Concho"
> >
> > Buck,
> > Can I have his gold fillings..?<G>
> > D
>
> He has a few gold crowns (in his big mouth-should be easy to get one of
> your BIG knives in).
>
> Buck
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
Date: 27 Apr 2000 07:55:20 -0600

Steve,
There are many good builders today, from full custom to semi custom factory
guns. If you have an interest to build then by all means do it, but be aware
that your first few attempts will probably not be up to what they should be.
Building guns can be a full time effort and you may loose track of why you
got into it in the first place. If one is doing it to save money, you
wontthe tooling will eat up the savings in a hurry.
I would first go out and shoot a flintlock and see if you can get use to it,
then look at all the diferent makers that you can, to find out what you
like. Are you going to hunt? and what are you going to hunt?.
You need to become an expert in the subject before you acquire your own. Now
having said all that, I saw a piece made by Caywood and was impressed with
the work and price, but there are probably others.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
>Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2000, 11:47 PM
>

>I am at a point where I think I would like to acquire or build myself a
>flintlock.  Several months back there was some discussion about guns and
>making guns.  I have done some research and have developed some interest in
>the Pecotonica Long Rifle Company.  They produce several different guns one
>of which, the southern mountain rifle, has drawn my interest.  Has anyone had
>any experience with this particular company or can you direct me to some
>place I could find a great shooting rifle?  I'm looking for something that
>would be found during the early 1800's (1810 to 1830).
>
>YMHS
>
>Steve
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal
Date: 27 Apr 2000 09:24:39 -0700



On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:26:17 EDT [e-mail] writes:
> Ho the List
>
> ....also, while at the L&C center, I picked up a bronze Jefferson
> Peace Medal
> exactly like the one carried by L&C and given to the Indian chiefs.
> The medal
> was struck, as I understand it, by the US Mint, on the original
> mold, only in
> bronze, rather than silver as were the originals. Does anyone know
> if this is
> true...that the US Mint used the original mold cast in 1801?
>
> It's a pretty neat medal and I plan on having it silver plated and
> tell the
> story about how I found it on the banks of the Columbia River....
>
> Ymos,
> Steve

why dont you make a rubber mold of it and have a silver lost wax casting
made of it then it would be more correct and probably cost about the same
as having the bronze one plated---

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads
Date: 27 Apr 2000 09:21:02 -0700

steve--
contact Danial anderson in decatur ill he has a lewis and clark bead
given to him by mrs Good who is the expert on beads of that time
span---she has a awsome collection---dont believe the one you were
describing was correct for the lewes and clark one and it was also not
like a chevron type of bead either which was a trade item of the
period---I dont know much about beads but dan does and when i have a
question I usually direct it to him---"he's in the book "who's who in
buckskins" and has a AMM # less than 100---can give you his phone number
if you wish to call and talk to him---let me know offline---dan and I
have done several good walk abouts---out west---dan called those (L
&C)beads cobald or something like that---


dan's e-mail address is [e-mail]      ----contact him he also
has 6 goose egg chevrons that he got from me ---I won them at a shootin
match in the early 60's  originals given by a museum as a prize because
they had no way to display them properly---dan is real proud of those
goose eggs------

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  MtMan-List: moccasin liners
Date: 27 Apr 2000 09:03:57 -0600

"Larry Huber" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>I've tried the double soles, the triple liners, the modern foam pads
and I found that it was like wearing a pair of shoes that looked like
moccasins.  It 'aint the same.  The essence is lost. <<

Larry,
It's great that you can get out often enough that you can walk properly in
the woods with your moccasins. It really does bring you closer to nature. I
had that skill once, but have lost it because I haven't been able to keep
in practice.

I know that if I were to wear my moccasins with a single sole and a wool
liner, I would be experiencing pain & discomfort which the Natives & fur
traders did not. The extra layers on the bottom & inside of my moccasins
make up for the thin soles on my feet, my lack of skill in walking, and the
unhistoric surfaces at some of the events which I regularly attend. Also, I
can't keep afford to replace my mocs when the soles wear out quickly due to
being worn on pavement or sharp gravel for a week.

There's still a world of difference between my moccasins + extra sole + Dr.
Scholl's liners and the Vibram-soled walking shoes I ordinarily wear.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads
Date: 27 Apr 2000 13:15:05 EDT

Although there is no specific ref to Lewis & Clark carrying the bead you
refer to, "The History of Beads" by Dubin shows the design you mention, and
others that are similar, and identifies them as being European wound-glass
beads from the 19th Century and says they were extremely popular as trade
items in both Africa and North America.  Manufactured by flame-working,
starting with winding filaments of glass on a mandrel, then rolling or
paddling to produce the shape, then flame-working again while trailing thin
canes of glass or cross-sections of canes across the surface, then rolling or
paddling again to press the design into the background glass, yielding a
smooth, finished product.

I will look for other sources to directly connect them to L & C, and post the
results, if any.         Barney

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Frog
Date: 27 Apr 2000 16:49:01 EDT

Hallo the list,

Well boys......I'm outta here! Headed down river to meet Capt Lahti and some
folks at a little gatherin called "Frog Holler". It's a pre-1840, canoe-in
rendezvous, and I can't wait to get out of town. Figure on gettin cold, wet,
and bug bit, but mebbe them AMM boys can give this pilgrum some
direction..... it don't get any better than this!

Ymos,
Steve


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Life in the 1500's
Date: 27 Apr 2000 16:53:43 EDT

  The floor was dirt.  Only the wealthy had something other than dirt,
>>  hence
>>  the saying "dirt poor".  The wealthy had slate floors which would get
>>  slippery in the winter when wet.  So they spread thresh on the floor
>> to
>>  help
>>  keep their footing.  As the winter wore on they kept adding more
>> thresh
>>  until
>>  when you opened the door it would all start slipping outside.  A
>> piece of
>>  wood was placed at the entry way, hence a "thresh hold".
>>
>>  They cooked in the kitchen in a big kettle that always hung over the
>>  fire.
>>  Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot.  They mostly
>> ate
>>  vegetables and didn't get much meat.  They would eat the stew for
>> dinner
>>  leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start
>> over
>>  the
>>  next day.  Sometimes the stew had food in it  that had been in there
>> for
>>  a
>>  month.  Hence the rhyme: peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas
>>  porridge
>>  in the pot nine days old."
>>

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From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: double edge forge
Date: 27 Apr 2000 18:15:34 -0500

Can someone give me the address of double edge forge?
Thanks,
Tony Clark


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double edge forge
Date: 27 Apr 2000 16:19:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)



On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, northwoods wrote:
> Can someone give me the address of double edge forge?

Web address is...

http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/


Regards from Idaho

Lee Newbill
Company Clerk of the HogHeaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/northscribe/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Seward <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double edge forge
Date: 27 Apr 2000 17:18:58 -0600



northwoods wrote:

> Can someone give me the address of double edge forge?
> Thanks,
> Tony Clark
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

-the address for
                DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
                335 N MADISON
                OHIO, 45346


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double edge forge
Date: 27 Apr 2000 18:24:47 -0500

Thanks.
northwoods



-----Original Message-----


>
>
>On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, northwoods wrote:
>> Can someone give me the address of double edge forge?
>
>Web address is...
>
>http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/
>
>
>Regards from Idaho
>
>Lee Newbill
>Company Clerk of the HogHeaven Muzzleloaders
>http://www.geocities.com/northscribe/
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Seward <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double edge forge
Date: 27 Apr 2000 17:24:05 -0600



James Seward wrote:

> northwoods wrote:
>
> > Can someone give me the address of double edge forge?
> > Thanks,
> > Tony Clark
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> -the address for
>                 DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>                 335 N  MAIN ST,

                   NEW MADISIN, OHIO
                          45346



>

> ---------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/



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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners
Date: 27 Apr 2000 20:21:28 -0500

Amen, Angela
Nothing loses the "essence" quite as much as having to stay home because =
walking in moccasins is impossible without the modifications you need.  =
You continue to do what you need to do and let the others have their =
opinions.  It amazes me that people can't separate comfort from =
necessity.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 1980 10:03 AM


> "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >>I've tried the double soles, the triple liners, the modern foam pads =
=20
> and I found that it was like wearing a pair of shoes that looked like  =

> moccasins.  It 'aint the same.  The essence is lost. <<
>=20
> Larry,=20
> It's great that you can get out often enough that you can walk =
properly in
> the woods with your moccasins. It really does bring you closer to =
nature. I
> had that skill once, but have lost it because I haven't been able to =
keep
> in practice.=20
>=20
> I know that if I were to wear my moccasins with a single sole and a =
wool
> liner, I would be experiencing pain & discomfort which the Natives & =
fur
> traders did not. The extra layers on the bottom & inside of my =
moccasins
> make up for the thin soles on my feet, my lack of skill in walking, =
and the
> unhistoric surfaces at some of the events which I regularly attend. =
Also, I
> can't keep afford to replace my mocs when the soles wear out quickly =
due to
> being worn on pavement or sharp gravel for a week.=20
>=20
> There's still a world of difference between my moccasins + extra sole =
+ Dr.
> Scholl's liners and the Vibram-soled walking shoes I ordinarily wear.
>=20
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double edge forge
Date: 27 Apr 2000 18:27:47 -0700

I should have posted this a month ago...
That's when I received my "bag axe" from Dennis.  I can tell you it is a
genuine piece of recreated history!
A fine tool that will last many years of use.  I highly recommend Double
Edge Forge.

Frank <(((><


northwoods wrote:

> Thanks.
> northwoods
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: April 27, 2000 6:20 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double edge forge
>
> >
> >
> >On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, northwoods wrote:
> >> Can someone give me the address of double edge forge?
> >
> >Web address is...
> >
> >http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/
> >
> >
> >Regards from Idaho
> >
> >Lee Newbill
> >Company Clerk of the HogHeaven Muzzleloaders
> >http://www.geocities.com/northscribe/
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double edge forge
Date: 27 Apr 2000 19:50:00 -0600

northwoods wrote:

> Can someone give me the address of double edge forge?
> Thanks,
> Tony Clark
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Customer Name:  Dennis Miles
Customer Address:  335 N Main St
City: New Madison
State:  Ohio
Zip Code: 45346
Phone:  [phone]




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double edge forge
Date: 27 Apr 2000 21:03:48 -0700

Yep, the Kid does real good work.   Fer a Yankee feller <GG>
Pendleton
-----Original Message-----


I should have posted this a month ago...
That's when I received my "bag axe" from Dennis.  I can tell you it is a
genuine piece of recreated history!
A fine tool that will last many years of use.  I highly recommend Double
Edge Forge.

Frank <(((><


northwoods wrote:

> Thanks.
> northwoods
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: April 27, 2000 6:20 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double edge forge
>
> >
> >
> >On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, northwoods wrote:
> >> Can someone give me the address of double edge forge?
> >
> >Web address is...
> >
> >http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/
> >
> >
> >Regards from Idaho
> >
> >Lee Newbill
> >Company Clerk of the HogHeaven Muzzleloaders
> >http://www.geocities.com/northscribe/
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double edge forge
Date: 27 Apr 2000 22:18:39 -0400

Gee guys... Shucks..<kicking dirt with me toe..>.<G>....
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
Date: 27 Apr 2000 23:24:59 EDT

[e-mail] writes:
> I have done some research and have developed some interest in
>  the Pecotonica Long Rifle Company.  They produce several different guns
one
>  of which, the southern mountain rifle, has drawn my interest.  Has anyone
> had  any experience with this particular company

Steve,
I never saw anyone answer your questions.  I'll give it a crack.  Pecatonica
does NOT sell guns.  They sell component kits.  Their specialty is making
gunstocks.  Their kits are beyond the scope of a new builder unless you have
considerable woodworking and metal skills.  Their's is NOT the one to buy if
you are making your first gun.

>   can you direct me to some
>  place I could find a great shooting rifle?  I'm looking for something that
>  would be found during the early 1800's (1810 to 1830).

Go the the homepage of the Muzzleloader Mailing list :
http://members.aol.com/illinewek
Others might want to bookmark the page.....this is it's new location.

Scroll down the the Sutlers and Craftsmen link.  both Jackie Brown and
Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading make the kind of gun you are looking for.
There are also several other links to excellent gunmakers.  The reason I
mention these two, is because they will build you a gun "in the white"
meaning it is all assembled.  All you have to do is stain the stock, apply a
finish to the wood, and brown or blue the metal.  This way you get a quality
built gun to which you can add your own personal touches.

Dave Kanger

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners
Date: 27 Apr 2000 21:39:46 -0600

Lanney, I am not a reenactor. I do these things because I have for years
been on a quest to become the best survivalist I can be. Not because I fear
Armageddon or anything, or fear that the government is out to enslave us and
those who would be free will have to run to the mountains, but because I
like it. I shot my first deer with a flintlock rifle (an original) over 50
years ago. At the time I was wearing moccasins of braintanned moose that my
great grandfather (an immigrant) had made. I study the history of the U.S.,
especially the colonial and fur trade times, to gain insight into the skills
and techniques those people used so that I may become better with survival
skills also. My college minor was in history, and I taught history as well
as English. I have an abiding interest in history for history's sake. My
personal library is large enough that it is a bit embarrassing. At least a
third of it is of history books. So I feel that although I am not a
reenactor, history is important to me so that I can learn. But learning does
not mean that as a buckskinner ( a term I use inadvisably and very loosely)
I need be concerned about the types of stitches used in my shirt, or the
amount of carbon in the steel of my blade. I do the best I can historically
when I go out, but my main concern is survival skills. Although reenactors
positions are not, of themselves, important to me, I give them all the room
they need. But when I hear inconsiderate or exclusive comments from any
faction or interest, I just consider that the person making them is
extremely narrow in their outlook and social skills. That's fine. They are
welcome to their exclusivity or lack of compassion or understanding. Just
not in my camp.
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----


Amen, Angela
Nothing loses the "essence" quite as much as having to stay home because
walking in moccasins is impossible without the modifications you need.  You
continue to do what you need to do and let the others have their opinions.
It amazes me that people can't separate comfort from necessity.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 1980 10:03 AM


> "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >>I've tried the double soles, the triple liners, the modern foam pads
> and I found that it was like wearing a pair of shoes that looked like
> moccasins.  It 'aint the same.  The essence is lost. <<
>
> Larry,
> It's great that you can get out often enough that you can walk properly in
> the woods with your moccasins. It really does bring you closer to nature.
I
> had that skill once, but have lost it because I haven't been able to keep
> in practice.
>
> I know that if I were to wear my moccasins with a single sole and a wool
> liner, I would be experiencing pain & discomfort which the Natives & fur
> traders did not. The extra layers on the bottom & inside of my moccasins
> make up for the thin soles on my feet, my lack of skill in walking, and
the
> unhistoric surfaces at some of the events which I regularly attend. Also,
I
> can't keep afford to replace my mocs when the soles wear out quickly due
to
> being worn on pavement or sharp gravel for a week.
>
> There's still a world of difference between my moccasins + extra sole +
Dr.
> Scholl's liners and the Vibram-soled walking shoes I ordinarily wear.
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners
Date: 27 Apr 2000 23:55:02 EDT

Yes!!!!, Bill.

Patrick J. Surrena
Jim Baker Party, The American Mountain Men, #1449
Colorado

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 28 Apr 2000 00:55:46 EDT

Hello in the camp This warm weather sure does feel good don't it. Back on the
farm when I was a kid I'd kick off my shoes and be headin for the creek. My
feet were a lot tougher then from not warein shoes much. As were the feet of
our 18 and 19th century counter parts. If you go bare foot a lot or ware
light mocs a lot your feet will Calais up. I use to be able to get by with
one layer side seams but got tired of all the patchin and going threw three
pare in a season. Then the 90lb jackhammer danced across my foot and a couple
of years later I trys to fly, Cyots don't fly ya know. So I shattered my heel
on the landin. After some cuttin screwin pinnin and some fusein the Doc
called it good as new almost. Need less to say I have altered my side seem by
adding layers of light cow hide to the out side and inside and covering it
all with brain deer or elk the only one how know is my feet and all of you.
    First and for most the Army always says take care of your feet. Going out
on a walk about in the mountains for a few days covering some ground you had
better take care of your feet or you will pay. Believe me I know.
                                                        See ya on the trail
                                                         Crazy Cyot

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 28 Apr 2000 09:19:15 EDT

"Ratcliff" <[e-mail]> wrote:
I didn't have the opportunity to meet Turtle Boyer, but I knew Brass Turt=
le. =

That man was a piece of work and I miss him.  I know he is holding court =
on
the other side every chance he gets.
Lanney Ratcliff
Lanney,
If you knew one, you knew both of them, get this pair on a canoe trip, at=
 an
event or just out for an evening was something you would always remember.=

Never a duel moment, usually one would come away sore from laughting at t=
he
experience. They'll both be missed.

Did you see some of the new toys on C&SM page, not you Larry. You got one=
 of
the shaving sets, didn't you Lanney ? Think I need one of them and a Thom=
as
Jefferson compass to find my way to Texas to see you boys.

Later
Concho


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 28 Apr 2000 08:49:15 -0600

Hey, Cyot, Got your envelope - thanks, but you overpaid. I'll settle up the
difference next time I see you.
Now I am going to 'fess up. I have a couple of pair of plains style mocs I
made. I've worn out a heap of them. But nowadays I usually stick a pair of
them in my pack for use around camp. While doing research over the years,
especially in the southwest, I came to believe that the southwest Dyer moc
(that's the one that laces up the front) is as close to what came out of
that area as most can get. There is more to it than that but I'm not listing
it - much to long - Anyway, that's what I wear on the trail, afoot or
horseback. They have never let me down, and that is one of my prime
requisites. I'm out there to survive using historical skills and equipment.
I believe that moc is of a historical style and is available today.
On another idea, what is the use of learning to use something historical to
survive on or with, if it ain't gonna be available in a survival situation?
But I digress. . . .
-----Original Message-----


>Hello in the camp This warm weather sure does feel good don't it. Back on
the
>farm when I was a kid I'd kick off my shoes and be headin for the creek. My
>feet were a lot tougher then from not warein shoes much. As were the feet
of
>our 18 and 19th century counter parts. If you go bare foot a lot or ware
>light mocs a lot your feet will Calais up. I use to be able to get by with
>one layer side seams but got tired of all the patchin and going threw three
>pare in a season. Then the 90lb jackhammer danced across my foot and a
couple
>of years later I trys to fly, Cyots don't fly ya know. So I shattered my
heel
>on the landin. After some cuttin screwin pinnin and some fusein the Doc
>called it good as new almost. Need less to say I have altered my side seem
by
>adding layers of light cow hide to the out side and inside and covering it
>all with brain deer or elk the only one how know is my feet and all of you.
>    First and for most the Army always says take care of your feet. Going
out
>on a walk about in the mountains for a few days covering some ground you
had
>better take care of your feet or you will pay. Believe me I know.
>                                                        See ya on the trail
>                                                         Crazy Cyot
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 28 Apr 2000 09:04:41 -0600

Bill Cunningham wrote:

> Now I am going to 'fess up. I have a couple of pair of plains style mocs I
> made. I've worn out a heap of them. But nowadays I usually stick a pair of
> them in my pack for use around camp. While doing research over the years,
> especially in the southwest, I came to believe that the southwest Dyer moc
> (that's the one that laces up the front) is as close to what came out of that
> area as most can get. There is more to it than that but I'm not listing it -
> much to long - Anyway, that's what I wear on the trail, afoot or horseback.
> They have never let me down, and that is one of my prime
> requisites..............

Bill,
Charley  Hanson had a sketch of a French Marine moc in his office from a friend
that ran one of the Canadian museums (can't remember which one now), anyway the
moc can be duplicated using one of Dyers old style tie behind mocs (one's like
we have all had). If you want I can send you a copy of that sketch for the
Tomahawk & Long Rifle.

What is needed to change from the Dyer pattern is to cut down that wide strap
that goes around the foot into a narrow one inch band that ties with just a
couple of holes (leave your thong long enough to make a loop to hang them up),
this is a fast an easy modification to make a good pair of footwear more correct
for period use, not perfect but closer than in original form.

The best part, like you say Dyer's are hard to beat when traveling or just
working in and around camp, so why not make them fit the period. Showed Carl
Dyer at an event years ago - the sketch Hanson had and he went off the deep end
about f.... up his mocs.

Anymore on water trips (canoe, flat boat or bateau) I wear them in and out of
the water, too much tin, metal and glass to take a chance of getting cut -
aren't some camper's and boater's wonderful !

Later
Buck Conner


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 28 Apr 2000 09:06:58 -0600

Concho Smith wrote:

> Did you see some of the new toys on C&SM page, not you Larry. You got one of the shaving
> sets, didn't you Lanney ? Think I need one of them and a Thomas Jefferson compass to find my
> way to Texas to see you boys.
>
> Later
> Concho

Get your money out - paper or plastic Concho.    $$$$$$$$$$
Buck




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 28 Apr 2000 11:34:23 -0400

Concho,

 I fell in heat with that Jefferson Compass as well., but blew my wad on
corn & rice.. Mebby later.... Even told my better half about it, hinting
heavily as a b.d. gift. seein's how I am gunna be 40 soon, I thought I was
worth it! She asked what direction my old compass pointed when I looked at
it, I responded with
 "North, most of the time".. She said it wasn't broke and I don't need a new
compass....<G>

D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 28 Apr 2000 10:34:09 -0600

Thanks, Buck. Why not send that sketch along. I'm sure there are plenty
who'd be interested. I never owned a pair of those. The ones I get are the
ones that lace up the front and whose likeness can be found in old paintings
and even the occasional museum.  Hanson's books have near copies as well.
They are brutes for taking punishment, are made by several companies besides
Dyers. And the truth is, I see many people wearing them - they just don't
talk about them. I had a pair made by Carl Dyer's dad back when they were
making them for LL Bean. But they finally wore out. Oh well. .  .
-----Original Message-----


>Bill Cunningham wrote:
>
>> Now I am going to 'fess up. I have a couple of pair of plains style mocs
I
>> made. I've worn out a heap of them. But nowadays I usually stick a pair
of
>> them in my pack for use around camp. While doing research over the years,
>> especially in the southwest, I came to believe that the southwest Dyer
moc
>> (that's the one that laces up the front) is as close to what came out of
that
>> area as most can get. There is more to it than that but I'm not listing
it -
>> much to long - Anyway, that's what I wear on the trail, afoot or
horseback.
>> They have never let me down, and that is one of my prime
>> requisites..............
>
>Bill,
>Charley  Hanson had a sketch of a French Marine moc in his office from a
friend
>that ran one of the Canadian museums (can't remember which one now), anyway
the
>moc can be duplicated using one of Dyers old style tie behind mocs (one's
like
>we have all had). If you want I can send you a copy of that sketch for the
>Tomahawk & Long Rifle.
>
>What is needed to change from the Dyer pattern is to cut down that wide
strap
>that goes around the foot into a narrow one inch band that ties with just a
>couple of holes (leave your thong long enough to make a loop to hang them
up),
>this is a fast an easy modification to make a good pair of footwear more
correct
>for period use, not perfect but closer than in original form.
>
>The best part, like you say Dyer's are hard to beat when traveling or just
>working in and around camp, so why not make them fit the period. Showed
Carl
>Dyer at an event years ago - the sketch Hanson had and he went off the deep
end
>about f.... up his mocs.
>
>Anymore on water trips (canoe, flat boat or bateau) I wear them in and out
of
>the water, too much tin, metal and glass to take a chance of getting cut -
>aren't some camper's and boater's wonderful !
>
>Later
>Buck Conner
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs and TLR
Date: 28 Apr 2000 14:05:33 EDT

Glad it got through to ya Bill put the extra in the kitty for the TLC. Jill
really likes her gift you sent. Really enjoyed this Issue keep up the good
work. I think a lot of people could benefit by reading and taking to heart
Spoons article. I have been involved in clean ups in national forest camp
grounds and after some big Rendezvous and even after a couple of AMM
nationals. So I have seen how people on a hole leave their camps. The general
public are pigs and don't have clue how to leave a camp. Rendezvous are lot
better and on the most part do good job but there are some who are really
lacking. The AMM camps wear by far the best on a hole but still there are
some Brothers out there that could gain by his article. I always leave my
camp as if Blackout are on my hide trail leave as little sign as possible.
Spoons I would die before I would do your laundry.
  On mochas I like the feal of brain tan on my feet even if I have to beef up
the souls. The side seem fit my out fit and wear the most common out here in
my area. So that is what I use. But no matter what type of moc system you be
sure they work for you before going out on any long jaunts in the wilderness
for without a horse or feet your just gone beaver.
                                 See ya on the trail
                                  Crazy Cyot.

----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 28 Apr 2000 12:05:11 -0600


--------------E4334324CE55CD5BE0BAD3F0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

D Miles wrote:

> Concho,
>
>  I fell in heat with that Jefferson Compass as well., but blew my wad on
> corn & rice.. Mebby later.... Even told my better half about it, hinting
> heavily as a b.d. gift. seein's how I am gunna be 40 soon, I thought I was
> worth it! She asked what direction my old compass pointed when I looked at
> it, I responded with
>  "North, most of the time".. She said it wasn't broke and I don't need a new
> compass....<G>
> D

finishing breaking it, is this hard.





--------------E4334324CE55CD5BE0BAD3F0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
D Miles wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Concho,
<p> I fell in heat with that Jefferson Compass as well., but blew
my wad on
<br>corn & rice.. Mebby later.... Even told my better half about it,
hinting
<br>heavily as a b.d. gift. seein's how I am gunna be 40 soon, I thought
I was
<br>worth it! She asked what direction my old compass pointed when I looked
at
<br>it, I responded with
<br> "North, most of the time".. She said it wasn't broke and I don't
need a new
<br>compass....<G>
<br><a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">D</a></blockquote>
finishing breaking it, is this hard.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br> </html>

--------------E4334324CE55CD5BE0BAD3F0--


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 28 Apr 2000 12:08:43 -0600

Bill Cunningham wrote:

> Thanks, Buck. Why not send that sketch along. I'm sure there are plenty
> who'd be interested. I never owned a pair of those. The ones I get are the
> ones that lace up the front and whose likeness can be found in old paintings
> and even the occasional museum.  Hanson's books have near copies as well.
> They are brutes for taking punishment, are made by several companies besides
> Dyers. And the truth is, I see many people wearing them - they just don't
> talk about them. I had a pair made by Carl Dyer's dad back when they were
> making them for LL Bean. But they finally wore out. Oh well. .  .

me too, used to work with a guy that grew up with Carl and worked with Carl and
his dad in learning the business when still in Mass.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs and TLR
Date: 28 Apr 2000 14:21:35 EDT

Sorry about that some times this spell check gets away from me that's TLR not
TLC blackfeet not blackout mocs not mochas
                                    Crazy

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 28 Apr 2000 14:25:29 -0400

B. Conner Wrote:
finishing breaking it, is this hard.

Buck
>>Hmm, good idea, but I am afeared she may see thru this ploy, as I have had
the compasss for 15 yrs and all of the sudden it "broke" soon after I found
something I fancy... Acourse, considering my propensity to flipping my canoe
in fast, deep water, it may "fall" outta my bag....<G>
D







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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs and TLR
Date: 28 Apr 2000 17:52:43 -0600

True, true, true, Cyot. Sure hope to see you guys this summer. The Poison
River Party is at the top of my list.
Bill
-----Original Message-----


>Glad it got through to ya Bill put the extra in the kitty for the TLC. Jill
>really likes her gift you sent. Really enjoyed this Issue keep up the good
>work. I think a lot of people could benefit by reading and taking to heart
>Spoons article. I have been involved in clean ups in national forest camp
>grounds and after some big Rendezvous and even after a couple of AMM
>nationals. So I have seen how people on a hole leave their camps. The
general
>public are pigs and don't have clue how to leave a camp. Rendezvous are lot
>better and on the most part do good job but there are some who are really
>lacking. The AMM camps wear by far the best on a hole but still there are
>some Brothers out there that could gain by his article. I always leave my
>camp as if Blackout are on my hide trail leave as little sign as possible.
>Spoons I would die before I would do your laundry.
>  On mochas I like the feal of brain tan on my feet even if I have to beef
up
>the souls. The side seem fit my out fit and wear the most common out here
in
>my area. So that is what I use. But no matter what type of moc system you
be
>sure they work for you before going out on any long jaunts in the
wilderness
>for without a horse or feet your just gone beaver.
>                                 See ya on the trail
>                                  Crazy Cyot.
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs
Date: 28 Apr 2000 17:53:45 -0600

It's a small, small world, ain't it?
-----Original Message-----


>Bill Cunningham wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Buck. Why not send that sketch along. I'm sure there are plenty
>> who'd be interested. I never owned a pair of those. The ones I get are
the
>> ones that lace up the front and whose likeness can be found in old
paintings
>> and even the occasional museum.  Hanson's books have near copies as well.
>> They are brutes for taking punishment, are made by several companies
besides
>> Dyers. And the truth is, I see many people wearing them - they just don't
>> talk about them. I had a pair made by Carl Dyer's dad back when they were
>> making them for LL Bean. But they finally wore out. Oh well. .  .
>
>me too, used to work with a guy that grew up with Carl and worked with Carl
and
>his dad in learning the business when still in Mass.
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs and TLR
Date: 28 Apr 2000 17:54:15 -0600

I knew what you meant.
-----Original Message-----


>Sorry about that some times this spell check gets away from me that's TLR
not
>TLC blackfeet not blackout mocs not mochas
>                                    Crazy
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 29 Apr 2000 11:31:39 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BFB1CF.25ED0460
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Dennis, maybe she wanted you to go North, so I could have the cute and =
sweet Gwen. he he he GGG


John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest  Ohio                                              =20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: [e-mail]=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 11:11 AM
  Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]


  D Miles wrote:=20
    Concho,=20
     I fell in heat with that Jefferson Compass as well., but blew my =
wad on=20
    corn & rice.. Mebby later.... Even told my better half about it, =
hinting=20
    heavily as a b.d. gift. seein's how I am gunna be 40 soon, I thought =
I was=20
    worth it! She asked what direction my old compass pointed when I =
looked at=20
    it, I responded with=20
     "North, most of the time".. She said it wasn't broke and I don't =
need a new=20
    compass....<G>=20
    D

  finishing breaking it, is this hard.=20
   =20
   =20
   =20
   =20

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BFB1CF.25ED0460
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dennis, maybe she wanted you to go North, so I could =
have the=20
cute and sweet Gwen. he he he GGG</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>John (BIG JOHN) =
Hunt<BR>Longhunter<BR>Mountainman<BR>southwest =20
Ohio           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;          =20
</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 28, 2000 =
11:11=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Re: [Re: =
MtMan-List: Lewis=20
  and Clark beads]]</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>D Miles wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">Concho,=20
    <P> I fell in heat with that Jefferson Compass as well., but =
blew my=20
    wad on <BR>corn & rice.. Mebby later.... Even told my better =
half about=20
    it, hinting <BR>heavily as a b.d. gift. seein's how I am gunna be 40 =
soon, I=20
    thought I was <BR>worth it! She asked what direction my old compass =
pointed=20
    when I looked at <BR>it, I responded with <BR> "North, most of =
the=20
    time".. She said it wasn't broke and I don't need a new=20
    <BR>compass....<G> <BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">D</A></P></BL=
OCKQUOTE>finishing=20
  breaking it, is this hard. <BR>  <BR>  <BR>  <BR>  =

</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BFB1CF.25ED0460--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 29 Apr 2000 11:59:57 -0400

J Hunt Wrote:

Dennis, maybe she wanted you to go North, so I could have the cute and sweet
Gwen. he he he GGG

>>>John,
 What 'cha gots to trade??... Robe and rifle-gun does not go with deal..
D



----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 29 Apr 2000 13:30:00 -0400


>
> Dennis, maybe she wanted you to go North, so I could have the cute and
sweet
> Gwen. he he he GGG
>
> >>>John,
>  What 'cha gots to trade??... Robe and rifle-gun does not go with deal..
> D
>
>Dennis, won`t need robe as she is young, got plenty guns. Will trade, trade
gun, handmade packbasket, one hudson bay blankie, two gourd canteens, and a
rusty truck that don`t run. Truck could look good setting in back yard, oh
yes truck has shell.

I feel this is a fair trade for a young woman who has all of her teeth
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 29 Apr 2000 11:39:43 -0600

D Miles wrote:

> J Hunt Wrote:
>
> Dennis, maybe she wanted you to go North, so I could have the cute and sweet
> Gwen. he he he GGG
>
> >>>John,
>  What 'cha gots to trade??... Robe and rifle-gun does not go with deal..
> D
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

keep the porringer too D.



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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 29 Apr 2000 14:38:48 -0400

Well John,
 As Buck stated, I am keeping a fine porringer as well... But I really doon
need anything you gots.... Could use some braintan though (too damned sorry
to make any this Spring), and mebby some of fine likker you make.. Oh, And I
'spose the trade gun you mentioned... Got a rusty truck. Could use a .570
mold.
And she do have all her teeth & a sharp tounge and has been with me for 15
yrs, so she can scare a Mother Griz away from her cubs, if she is a mind
to....Be warned..<G>
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 29 Apr 2000 16:13:26 -0600

D Miles wrote:

> Well John,
>  As Buck stated, I am keeping a fine porringer as well... But I really doon
> need anything you gots.... Could use some braintan though (too damned sorry
> to make any this Spring), and mebby some of fine likker you make.. Oh, And I
> 'spose the trade gun you mentioned... Got a rusty truck. Could use a .570
> mold.
> And she do have all her teeth & a sharp tounge and has been with me for 15
> yrs, so she can scare a Mother Griz away from her cubs, if she is a mind
> to....Be warned..<G>
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Damn, think I be married to her sister, sure have the same character, likes and
dislikes !!!!   That's scary having two running loose within a 1000 miles apart.

Buck



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From: farseer <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
Date: 29 Apr 2000 20:20:05 -0500

Will it have any engraving on the barrel?  One of my biggest beefs with =
production guns is the serial numbers, and other such rubbish on the =
flats.  I HATE that.    I have a .40 cal that I like to plink with, but =
I'm looking to get a .50 to go bring home Bambi.  I was also looking at =
Pecatonica, but since I'm seeing that that ain't the best choice for a =
beginner (yours truly), I'll think I'll look at TVM.  I've heard good =
things about them.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
> [e-mail]
> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 10:25 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
>=20
>=20
> [e-mail] writes:
> > I have done some research and have developed some interest in=20
> >  the Pecotonica Long Rifle Company.  They produce several=20
> different guns=20
> one=20
> >  of which, the southern mountain rifle, has drawn my interest. =20
> Has anyone=20
> > had  any experience with this particular company
>=20
> Steve,
> I never saw anyone answer your questions.  I'll give it a crack. =20
> Pecatonica=20
> does NOT sell guns.  They sell component kits.  Their specialty is =
making=20
> gunstocks.  Their kits are beyond the scope of a new builder=20
> unless you have=20
> considerable woodworking and metal skills.  Their's is NOT the=20
> one to buy if=20
> you are making your first gun.
>=20
> >   can you direct me to some=20
> >  place I could find a great shooting rifle?  I'm looking for=20
> something that=20
> >  would be found during the early 1800's (1810 to 1830).
>=20
> Go the the homepage of the Muzzleloader Mailing list :
> http://members.aol.com/illinewek
> Others might want to bookmark the page.....this is it's new location.
>=20
> Scroll down the the Sutlers and Craftsmen link.  both Jackie Brown and =

> Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading make the kind of gun you are looking =
for. =20
> There are also several other links to excellent gunmakers.  The reason =
I=20
> mention these two, is because they will build you a gun "in the white" =
=20
> meaning it is all assembled.  All you have to do is stain the=20
> stock, apply a=20
> finish to the wood, and brown or blue the metal.  This way you=20
> get a quality=20
> built gun to which you can add your own personal touches.
>=20
> Dave Kanger
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver article in local paper
Date: 29 Apr 2000 21:28:00 -0400 (EDT)

by Joel Thurtell, Detroit Free Press, Friday, April 28, p.4B

ROCHESTER, Mich. (AP) -- The cottontail rabbits, whitetail deer and
raccoons were a great addition to life near the Stony Creek Metropark,
where Kathy and Dennis Bielawski have lived for 29 years.
Now, there's a little too much nature for the couple. Six weeks ago the
beavers came -- and the furry engineers' projects are causing big
problems.
To build their dams, the beavers are chewing down trees. The new dams
are flooding yards.
"When I came here 18 years ago, there were very few beaver in
southeastern Michigan and I really wanted to protect them," DNR wildlife
biologist Tim Payne told the Detroit Free Press for a Friday story.
But, Payne admits they do cause problems.
Trapping is no longer profitable, so few beavers are being killed, said
Tim Reis, animal specialist for the Michigan Department of Natural
Resources.
The DNR has issued blanket permits that allow road commissions and
utility companies to trap them, said DNR Lt. Linda Copeland-Morgan.
At the Bielawskis' place, beavers build a dam every night.
Every day, Dennis Bielawski removes the logs.
And the cycle starts again.
Not to be outworked by the beavers, the Bielawskis recently obtained a
DNR permit to trap them.


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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 29 Apr 2000 22:01:39 -0400

Buck,

 Yep, iffen two get together, trouble, three, the end-time will be upon
us...<G>

D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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From:    "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 29 Apr 2000 23:56:17 -0400

 ugh!!!!!you keep her.



> > And she do have all her teeth & a sharp tounge and has been with me for
15
> > yrs, so she can scare a Mother Griz away from her cubs, if she is a mind
> > to....Be warned..<G>
> > D
> >
> > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> >           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> >   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> >    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
> >   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> Damn, think I be married to her sister, sure have the same character,
likes and
> dislikes !!!!   That's scary having two running loose within a 1000 miles
apart.
>
> Buck
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
Date: 30 Apr 2000 02:46:35 EDT

Farseer, I have a TVM Southern Rifle and matching pistol, both in .54 cal,
++curly maple and brass hardware. Not only are they are fine lookin' but dang
they shoot good too, right out of the box.  Also found Jack Garner and his
lovely Lady a pleasure to work with. Just my $.02 worth.         Barney Fife

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]
Date: 30 Apr 2000 05:37:35 -0400

I'll tell her you said that, John.. Especially the "UGH" part.. Then you can
deal with her, face to face at the next camp....<BG>
Well, I am off to the lake...
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
Date: 30 Apr 2000 09:24:30 EDT

Barney Fife writes:
> Farseer, I have a TVM Southern Rifle
>  Also found Jack Garner and his  lovely Lady a pleasure to work with.

Lest any of you become confused, TVM is owned by Matt and Toni Avance.  The
lovely lady you talked to was probably Toni......southern belle accent with a
voice like slow honey....  Matt has been building guns for Jack for some
time.  Jack has retired and only does stocking now.

Dave Kanger

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
Date: 30 Apr 2000 10:49:14 EDT

In a message dated 4/30/00 6:25:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> Barney Fife writes: > Farseer, I have a TVM Southern Rifle. Also found Jack
Garner and his  lovely Lady a pleasure to work with.<

> Lest any of you become confused, TVM is owned by Matt and Toni Avance.  The
>  lovely lady you talked to was probably Toni......southern belle accent
with
> a voice like slow honey....  Matt has been building guns for Jack for some
>  time.  Jack has retired and only does stocking now. <

Sorry for any confusion. At the time I bought my guns (8+ years ago) I was
dealing direct with Jack and his Wife.   I can only hope that Matt and Toni
are producing the same quality goods and are as wonderful to deal with.
Barney

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 30 Apr 2000 08:07:58 -0700

Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
John Funk


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks
Date: 30 Apr 2000 09:23:50 -0600

[e-mail] wrote:

> Farseer, I have a TVM Southern Rifle and matching pistol, both in .54 cal,
> ++curly maple and brass hardware. Not only are they are fine lookin' but dang
> they shoot good too, right out of the box.  Also found Jack Garner and his
> lovely Lady a pleasure to work with. Just my $.02 worth.         Barney Fife

Jack and the his wife have split I was told by Freddy Harris a couple years ago,
when the business changed hands.






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From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Building a Flintlock
Date: 30 Apr 2000 08:34:48 -0700 (PDT)

I've known Jack Garner for a number of years, and Met
Matt a few times-They have built the raffle gun for
Ft. Bridger's rendezvous for a number of years.  The
quality and looks have always been top-notch.  What
first brought TVM attention was their convertible
guns-Just swap the lock and drum and the same gun
served as flinter or caplock.  Great idea!  Dog,
Gabe's Hole Brig.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

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From: manbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 30 Apr 2000 12:17:41 -0400

I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one listed.

Manbear

"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:

> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
> John Funk
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "Norman Anderson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 30 Apr 2000 10:23:49 -0600

John,
http://www.carldyers.com/ should get you there.
Norman Anderson

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 9:07 AM


> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
> John Funk
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Leaving for a bit
Date: 30 Apr 2000 12:24:53 -0400

Well ladies adn gents, I am going to be suspending my subscription to the
list for about 10 days or so.  We are starting our move to West "By God"
Virginia tomorrow (packers come, etc...) and I think things are gonna be a
mite hectic around the homestead for a few days.  I will, however, be
re-subscribing as soon as we get thisngs set up again.  If anyone wants it,
my new email after 3 May will be [e-mail] ...  See y'all on the
back trail....

Ad Miller


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 30 Apr 2000 12:39:24 EDT

In a message dated 4/30/00, John Funk writes:

<< Anyone know if Dyer has a web site? >>

Here ya go John:

http://www.carldyers.com/

Longshot
Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html

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From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads--Compass
Date: 30 Apr 2000 00:15:51 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFB239.3E3676E0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

D Miles

Ifn that compass falls outa yer bag why don't ya let it fall into mine.  =
Don't matter if it aint pretty as long as it points North most the time, =
it'ed be doin better than my sense of direction.

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFB239.3E3676E0
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D Miles</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ifn that compass falls outa yer bag why =
don't ya=20
let it fall into mine.  Don't matter if it aint pretty as long as =
it points=20
North most the time, it'ed be doin better than my sense of=20
direction.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 30 Apr 2000 11:16:28 -0700

Thanks, Lodge and Norm......
appreciate it.

John Funk


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 9:39 AM


> In a message dated 4/30/00, John Funk writes:
>
> << Anyone know if Dyer has a web site? >>
>
> Here ya go John:
>
> http://www.carldyers.com/
>
> Longshot
> Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage
> http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads--Compass
Date: 30 Apr 2000 14:16:53 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0079_01BFB2AE.BBFDF6A0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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I spect if it ever "falls" from the bag, the Dear Wife will inheret =
it...Until she sees my new one!<G> Acourse, I tend to guard my "stuff" =
pretty close when she is around...She has done some trades off my =
blanket more than once when I was lollygaggin elsewhere.. But we do have =
a good WIlde Blanket collection due to the fact that Ed finds Gwen =
easier to trade with than I...<G> And he says she is easier on the eye =
as well...
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"


------=_NextPart_000_0079_01BFB2AE.BBFDF6A0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I spect if it ever "falls" from the =
bag, the Dear=20
Wife will inheret it...Until she sees my new one!<G> Acourse, I =
tend to=20
guard my "stuff" pretty close when she is around...She has done some =
trades off=20
my blanket more than once when I was lollygaggin elsewhere.. But we do =
have a=20
good WIlde Blanket collection due to the fact that Ed finds Gwen easier =
to trade=20
with than I...<G> And he says she is easier on the eye as=20
well...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>          DOUBLE EDGE =

FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements<BR>   =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
"Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:15:58 -0500
Date: 30 Apr 2000 14:15:51 -0600

Concho
I got the straight razor and a strop, but not the shaving mug.  The =
razor is first class. =20
=20
Get on down to Texas ASAP.  I just drove about 40 miles through some of =
the nicest looking country this side of the stony mountains....sparsely =
occupied rolling prairie cattle country with tall grass and a myriad of =
wild flowers blooming in all directions all the way to the horizon, with =
thunder clouds building to the west.  Saw a couple of scissor-tail =
flycatchers chasing bugs.  Thank God for His green earth.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 8:19 AM


"Ratcliff" <[e-mail]> wrote:
I didn't have the opportunity to meet Turtle Boyer, but I knew Brass =
Turtle.=20
That man was a piece of work and I miss him.  I know he is holding court =
on
the other side every chance he gets.
Lanney Ratcliff
Lanney,
If you knew one, you knew both of them, get this pair on a canoe trip, =
at an
event or just out for an evening was something you would always =
remember.
Never a duel moment, usually one would come away sore from laughting at =
the
experience. They'll both be missed.

Did you see some of the new toys on C&SM page, not you Larry. You got =
one of
the shaving sets, didn't you Lanney ? Think I need one of them and a =
Thomas
Jefferson compass to find my way to Texas to see you boys.

Later
Concho


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at =
http://webmail.netscape.com.

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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads--Compass
Date: 30 Apr 2000 14:56:46 -0600


--------------1A091BC52E24BEC0E8412A65
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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D Miles wrote:

> I spect if it ever "falls" from the bag, the Dear Wife
> will inheret it...Until she sees my new one!<G> Acourse, I
> tend to guard my "stuff" pretty close when she is
> around...She has done some trades off my blanket more than
> once when I was lollygaggin elsewhere.. But we do have a
> good WIlde Blanket collection due to the fact that Ed
> finds Gwen easier to trade with than I...<G> And he says
> she is easier on the eye as well...D
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Seems some of our trades Dennis have gone that way more
> than once.  See how she likes the purple flask (copy of
> one found at the Paoli/Germantown battle) snet with your
> order and some tobacco for blessing those kills.
> Buck

--------------1A091BC52E24BEC0E8412A65
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
D Miles wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I
spect if it ever "falls" from the bag, the Dear Wife will inheret it...Until
she sees my new one!<G> Acourse, I tend to guard my "stuff" pretty close
when she is around...She has done some trades off my blanket more than
once when I was lollygaggin elsewhere.. But we do have a good WIlde Blanket
collection due to the fact that Ed finds Gwen easier to trade with than
I...<G> And he says she is easier on the eye as well...</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>D</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Seems some of our trades Dennis have
gone that way more than once.  See how she likes the purple flask
(copy of one found at the Paoli/Germantown battle) snet with your order
and some tobacco for blessing those kills.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Buck</font></font></blockquote>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: building a flintlock
Date: 30 Apr 2000 17:04:27 EDT

Appreciate all the replys and information shared.  Has helped me direct my
search.  Need a gun for deer and elk.  TVM southrn gun sounds like it might
be the one.  Has anyone had experience with a Jackie Brown Soutern model?  I
do like a gun that shoots straight.  Of course most probably shoot straighter
than I aim?@%!$#

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From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads--Compass
Date: 30 Apr 2000 14:16:21 -0700


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So then AFTER she lifts your hair...she won't be needin' two compasses
will she?  :o)

Frank

[e-mail] wrote:

> D Miles wrote:
>
>> I spect if it ever "falls" from the bag, the Dear Wife will inheret
>> it...Until she sees my new one!<G> Acourse, I tend to guard my
>> "stuff" pretty close when she is around...She has done some trades
>> off my blanket more than once when I was lollygaggin elsewhere.. But
>> we do have a good WIlde Blanket collection due to the fact that Ed
>> finds Gwen easier to trade with than I...<G> And he says she is
>> easier on the eye as well...D
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Seems some of our trades Dennis have gone that way more than once.
>> See how she likes the purple flask (copy of one found at the
>> Paoli/Germantown battle) snet with your order and some tobacco for
>> blessing those kills.
>> Buck
>

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
So then AFTER she lifts your hair...she won't be needin' two compasses
will she?  :o)
<p>Frank
<p>[e-mail] wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>D Miles wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I
spect if it ever "falls" from the bag, the Dear Wife will inheret it...Until
she sees my new one!<G> Acourse, I tend to guard my "stuff" pretty close
when she is around...She has done some trades off my blanket more than
once when I was lollygaggin elsewhere.. But we do have a good WIlde Blanket
collection due to the fact that Ed finds Gwen easier to trade with than
I...<G> And he says she is easier on the eye as well...D</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Seems some of our trades Dennis have
gone that way more than once.  See how she likes the purple flask
(copy of one found at the Paoli/Germantown battle) snet with your order
and some tobacco for blessing those kills.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Buck</font></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>

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From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads--Compass
Date: 30 Apr 2000 20:17:47 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Buck,
 I am REAL sure she will love it! And you will have earned another "Gwen =
KIss" when it arrives.. She loves the porringer... And the tobac will be =
used in the proper manner... LOoking forward to the arrival..
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Buck,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I am REAL sure she will love it! =
And you will=20
have earned another "Gwen KIss" when it arrives.. She loves the =
porringer... And=20
the tobac will be used in the proper manner... LOoking forward to the=20
arrival..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>D<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>          DOUBLE EDGE =

FORGE<BR>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements<BR>   =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A><BR> =20
"Knowing how is just the beginning"<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 30 Apr 2000 20:55:56 -0600

John,
Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there is another
company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who they are and how
to get a hold of them please post your info.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
>From: manbear <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
>Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM
>

>I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one listed.
>
>Manbear
>
>"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
>
>> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
>> John Funk
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 30 Apr 2000 21:37:19 -0500

Try Arrow Moccasin Company.  I think that is the company you are =
thinking about.  I have heard many good things about their products.
Lanney Ratcliff
http://www.arrowmoc.com/

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 9:55 PM


> John,
> Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there is =
another
> company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who they are =
and how
> to get a hold of them please post your info.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: manbear <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM
> >
>=20
> >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one listed.
> >
> >Manbear
> >
> >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
> >> John Funk
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700

Ole.....
I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc.  better than I...and that
don't say much.  If there's a better (authentic) "mouse trap", I'll look at
it (them).
John Funk



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM


> John,
> Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there is another
> company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who they are and
how
> to get a hold of them please post your info.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: manbear <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM
> >
>
> >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one listed.
> >
> >Manbear
> >
> >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
> >> John Funk
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 30 Apr 2000 21:13:16 -0600

Talk to Ray Glazner.
-----Original Message-----


>John,
>Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there is another
>company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who they are and how
>to get a hold of them please post your info.
>YMOS
>Ole # 718
>----------
>>From: manbear <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail]
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
>>Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM
>>
>
>>I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one listed.
>>
>>Manbear
>>
>>"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
>>> John Funk
>>>
>>> ----------------------
>>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
Date: 30 Apr 2000 21:13:48 -0600

I have bought several of different types of foot wear that they make -
excellent every time!
-----Original Message-----


Try Arrow Moccasin Company.  I think that is the company you are thinking
about.  I have heard many good things about their products.
Lanney Ratcliff
http://www.arrowmoc.com/

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 9:55 PM


> John,
> Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there is another
> company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who they are and
how
> to get a hold of them please post your info.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: manbear <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site...
> >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM
> >
>
> >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one listed.
> >
> >Manbear
> >
> >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site?
> >> John Funk
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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